A19456	----	The ladder of hell, or, The Protestants libertine doctrine being the broad way which leadeth the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell / set foorth in prose and verse. Covbridge, Cranmer. 1618 Approx. 20 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A19456 STC 5879.5 ESTC S1685 21469809 ocm 21469809 24025 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A19456) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 24025) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1708:7) The ladder of hell, or, The Protestants libertine doctrine being the broad way which leadeth the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell / set foorth in prose and verse. Covbridge, Cranmer. [16] p. Birchley Hall Press?, [Lancashire? : ca. 1618] Dedication signed: Cranmer Covbridge. Imprint suggested by STC (2nd ed.). Marginal notes. Signatures: A⁸. Reproduction of original in the Upshaw College (Durham, Eng.). Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Controversial literature. Conscience -- Early works to 1800. 2006-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-09 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-10 Jason Colman Sampled and proofread 2006-10 Jason Colman Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE LADDER OF HELL . OR THE PROTESTANTS LIBERTINE DOCTRINE , BEING THE BROAD WAY WHICH leadeth the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in Hell. Set foorth in Prose and Verse . ISAI . 5. 20. Woe vnto you who call euill good , and good euill ; putting darknesse light , and light darknesse . Permissu Superiorum . CRANMER COVBRIDGE , MINISTER OF THE WORD IN CVMBERLAND , to the zealous Protestants his Brethren , concerning the Printing , Title , and vse of this admirable Ladder , worthily called The Ladder of Hell. COnsidering that this Ladder was first framed and entituled The Ladder of Hell , by a Papist , to the great disgrace ( as hee conceined ) of our Protestant Religion ; I imagine that some of you ( dearely beloued Brethren ) will wish that it had been quite suppressed , and neuer seene light : yet , ( in regard it containeth nothing but a collection of certaine sentences set downe in the publike bookes of twelue principall Pillars of our Church ) I thought it not amisse to set it forth , just as I found it , vnder your protection ; knowing well , that euery zealous Protestant can with the dexteritie of his reformed spirit turne all , though neuer so plainly seeming ill , to at least a seeming good sense : as for example , wheras the Papist called this collection of sentences , The Ladder of Hell because in his judgement the beleefe and , practise of it leadeth a soule directly to hell . Yet one of our new learning ( considering that Ladders are made rather to helpe men vpward then downeward ) wil say it may be called The Ladder of Hell , because the beleefe and practise of it will lift soules out of hell . And with reason may this be said , supposing one ground of our new doctrine be true , to wit , that Hell is ( no such locall place in which are fire and other torments , as is said by the ancient Fathers , and the Scriptures themselues , to be prepared for the Diuels and other damned creatures , but ) only a certaine terror and horror of an afflicted conscience , the which may in some measure be felt euen in this world , and is ordinarily felt after sin commited euen by Protestants , vntill by beleeuing firmely , and practising freely the points of doctrine contained in this Ladder , they come by degrees to contemne all things , to wit , all Lawes of God and man : and all scruple of minde and remorse of conscience , and all feare of Death , Iudgement , and Hell , which estate of mind , it is like diuers zealous Protestants haue alreadie attained vnto , esteeming themselues hereby to be not onely freed from hell , but to haue attained a kind of heauen in earth : Marry the doubt is , whether this their heauē wil last alwayes , as true heauen ought to doe , or whether this hastie freeing thēselues frō the hell of care , feare , remorse & sorrow in this life , will not plung them into a most bitter feeling of remorse in the houre of death , and into intollerable torments of the eternall Hell in the next life . The which doubt being in the judgement of some , only a Papisticall scruple , I will leaue to bee discussed at better leasure : It shall suffice my present purpose onely to declare the manifold vses , which for the present time may be made of this excellent Ladder , both by Papists and Protestants . First , I finde that the Papists meane to make this short Ladder serue for an answer of many long discourses made by Protestant Ministers in bookes or Sermons , in which they obiect the ill liues of some Papists ; the which obiections the Papists doe retort more strongly against vs Protestants , who cannot deny , but that since the light of the new Gospell was by Luther brought into the world , men are ( as Luther himselfe coufessed ) more reuengeful , more conetous , more vnmercifull , more vnmodest and vnruly , and much worse then they were in Papistry ; the reason whereof ( say the Papists ) is for that the very doctrine it selfe of the new Gospellers , doth not onely not afford such effectuall restraints and remedies against sinne , as is in the ancient Catholike Religion , but also hath ( as appeareth by the steps of this Ladder ) diuers expresse principles , which doe plainly open the gappe to all licentious libertie of lewde life , far more then can bee imagined to bee done by any principles of the Papists doctrine . Whereupon the Papists conclude that the Protestant Religion , whose doctrine is so vnholy , cannot be a holy Religion inspired by the holy Ghost , but suggested ( as a Luther the first Author confesseth some part of it ( to wit , the deniall of the sacrifice of the Masse ) to haue beene suggested to him ) by Satan himselfe , the enemy of all true Religion and holinesse . The zealous Protestant not much regarding this , or whatsoeuer other arguments made by Papists , find out other vses of this Ladder : as for example . First , it teacheth euery one of them to exercise heroicall acts of their b new-found Iustifying Faith , by which they beleeue that they are just , holy , and of the number of the predestinate , not onely by hauing a good hope , ( as the poore Papists haue ) when they see or feele some of those things in themselues , which by the holy Scriptures they learne to be signes of true Iustice ( to wit , repentance of sins past , carefulnesse to auoid sinne in time to come , diligence in doing good workes ; &c. ) but also by infallible and absolute beleefe , as of a chiefe article of their Christian faith , euen at such times as they neither see , nor feele any such signes , yea euē whē they euidently see in themselues contrary signes , & namely , euen when they actually do those works of the flesh , of which Saint . Paul pronounceth , That they who doe such things , shall not obtaine the Kingdome of God. Zealous Protestants , I say , maugre this threat of S. Paul , are taught by this Ladder to beleeue boldly that they are Saints , and cannot misse saluation , notwithstanding they commit neuer so many most horrible sins . Secondly , this Ladder teacheth them to cast away all feare of God , not onely in respect of his Iustice , in inflicting present or future paines for sinne ( which is called seruile feare ) but also of separation from God , which feare cannot stand with our new Iustifying Faith , in regard we must hold it absolutely impossible that we can bee separated from God , and consequently wee must cast away this fear , although neuer so much commended in Scripture . Thirdly , By this admirable Ladder , zealous Protestants may be deliuered from all inward remorse of conscience , & may come to that highest perfection of our new Gospell , which consisteth in a neglect of al conscience , the which cannot be attained on a sudden , but must be gained ( as Luther himselfe gained it ) by entering into a terrible conflict , and fighting against ones owne conscience ; the difficulty of which combate ariseth out of three heads . The first is the letter of the written word , which seemeth euery where to crosse thi● liberty of conscience , and to forbid the doing of any thing against conscience . But our new spirituall man , who judgeth all things , will oppose against this killing letter of Scripture , which restraineth our freedome , the quickening spirit of this Ladder , which alloweth liberty of neglecting conscience . The second is an old Tradition of the Papists in fauour of conscience , which hath by long custome taken a deepe roote in vs. But the zealous Protestant , who accounteth Papistry a great blindnesse , will easily defie this among other Papisticall traditions . The third is an inueterate opinion and feeling of conscience engrauen in the very nature and flesh of mans heart . But we new spirited men do know old nature to be corrupted , and that the flesh profiteth nothing . Thus my deare Brethrē , you may see what vses may be made of this admirable Ladder . It remaineth that in a word I also declare , why I make choice to dedicate it vnto you , and to put it in print vnder your protection . The reason is , because the authors out of whom these sentences were collected , were all zealous Protestants . Secondly , because none now adaies will ( as I suppose ) stedfastl● beleeue & endeuor to practise according 〈◊〉 these points , but only zealous Prote●●a●s . Thirdly , beause none but such zealous Protestāts , who frame their liues according to this Ladder , can well vnderstand how it is possible that this Ladder can be good , or how it should deliuer one out of Hell , and cōsequently , why it should be stiled in that sense , in which I stile it , The Ladder of Hell. It may be the Papist , which first framed this Ladder , wil play vpon vs with his text , Woe vnto you that call euil good , and good euill , Isa . 5. 20. But wee care not for his text , for we can cry as lowd , and say as fast , Wo vnto him , and although the world will , witnesse that he hath better reason to vse this text against vs , then we against him : yet it sufficeth that our * new Spirit doth beare witnes to our nullity of cōscience that we say true . If the Papist take aduātage at my intitling my self Minist . of the Word in Comberland , saying that we Ministers comber the Land with these libertine doctrines . I can reply & tell him , that it is he & his Seminaries , who comber our consciences with their contrary doctrines , & with putting scruples into our heads , by adding to this Ladder certain sentences , threatning hell and damnation to sinners : for although we professe by our justifying Faith , that we are sure to be saued , and that we neede not feare to be damned : yet I confesse , when I seriously examine my guilty conscience , and by searching , find the holy Scriptures themselues to pronounce plainly eternall damnation to all ill liuers . I cannot choose but be bodily afraid lest the Papist say true , when he telleth vs that the Libertine doctrine taught by our new Gospellers , & set downe in this Ladder , wil most certainly lead the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell ; from which I beseech the Lord to deliuer vs all . Amen Your deuoted seruant in the Lord , CRANMER COVBRIDGE . THE PROTESTANTS LADDER of libertie in Prose . Easie it is Hell not to misse . 1 GOD is the Author and enforcing cause of all finne . 2 The ten Commandements are impossible to be kept . 3 The ten Commandements belong not to Christains . 4 Christ hath fulfilled the Law for vs. 5 We need take no paines for eternall life : 6 Dauid committing murder and adulterie , did not lose the holy Ghost . 7 Whosoeuer beleeues , God workes for him . 8 Sinnes are not hurtfull to him that beleeues . 9 We haue no freewill at all , for it is titulus finere . 10 Good works are not necessary to saluation . 11 Good workes are hurtfull to saluation . 12 To teach good workes , is the doctrine of diuels . 1● Let vs take heed of sinnes , yea let vs take heed of good workes . 14 All our best workes are mortall sins , and meere iniquitie . 15 We need not greeue or doe any satisfaction for our sinnes . 16 A thousand fornications and murders a day , cannot withdraw vs from Christ . 17 If thy wife will not come , let thy maid come . 18 A woman is as necessary as meat and drinke . 19 We may haue as many wiues as we list together . 20 To fast and chastise our bodies , is sanctitie for hogges and dogges . 21 Purgatory is a delusion of the diuell . 22 The diuels are but in hell . 23 There is no sinne but infidelitie , no iustice but Faith. 24 No sins are imputed to the faithfull . 25 Sinnes of the faithfull past and future , are pardoned as soone as committed . 26 The more wicked thou art , the more neere to receiue grace . 27 Wee haue as much right to heauen , as Christ himselfe . 28 And wee are all Saints , and as holy as the Apostles were . 29 Wee are certaine of our saluation . 30 We cannot fall from ours , vnlesse Christ fall from his . A larger passage no man treads Then that which to perdition leads . THE PROTESTANTS LADDER of libertie , in Verse . The gates are ●ide And open bide . GOD is of all our sinnes the enforcing cause , It is impossible to keepe his lawes , The Tables two no rules for Christians bee , Christ hath fulfill'd the Law , and left vs free . We need no paines take for eternall life , Dauid Vrias kill'd , defilde his wife , Yet did not thereby lose the holy Ghost . God for beleeuers worke , they ( truely ) boast ▪ To the beleeuer , no sinnes hurtfull are : We haue no freewill , t is a title bare : There 's no necessitie of our good workes , In them much hinderance to saluation lurkes . The teaching of good workes is diuels lore ; Shunne sin , but for good works eschew them more ▪ All our best workes are sinnes and errors soule ; For sinne neer satisfie , nor grieue thy soule , A thousand fornications on a day ; As oft to kill , pulls not from Christ away . If thy wife will not , let thy mayde supply , As meate and drinke , a woman's necessary ▪ Wiues thou mayest take at once al that thou please ▪ To tame the flesh by fasts , or want of ease , Is sanctitie for hogges and dogges to vse , With Purgatorie the Fiend doth fooles abuse . Nor are those damn'd rebellious sprites in hell , No sinne , but want of Faith , no doing well , But to beleeue . No sinnes the faithfull blot Committed , straight they are pardon'd and forgot . The most defil'd , the readiest is for grace ; As Christ , so wee , haue right to see Gods face . The Apostles equalls we are all , and Saints , Our certaintie of saluation neuer faints , What euer soyleth ours , Christs glory taints ▪ They spend their dayes in faring well , And in a tri●e descend to hell . THE BOOKES OF PROTEstants from whence the steppes of the ▪ Ladder are gathered . 1 Caluin . lib. 1. Iustitut . cap. 18. sect . 3. 4. Castalio is witnes , l. de Praed . con . Caluin . Ecker . in fascic . contr . quaest . 2. cap. 7. Paraeus apud Beca in 1. par . c. 16. p. 182. Litt. Bern. dat . Anno. 1555. 2 Caluin . lib. 2. Instit . cap. 7. sect . 5. 3 Luther . Serm. de Mois . & in coloq ●●ns . Germ. fol. 152. 153. Melane . in Loc. Com. edit . 2. pag. 76. Eberus Salmath fecicles cruciger colloq . Altemb . Anno 1568. 4 Willet in Sinop . Papis . pag. 564. 5 Hoffman . de Poenit. 6 Fulke in the Tower disput . 7 Hoffman . de Poenit. 8 Whitaker de Ecclesia . pag. 301. 9 Luther Art. 36. 10 Illiricus in Pref. ad Rom. 11 Amsdorfius quod bona opera sint perniciosa ad salut . 12 Luther de Votis Monast . 13 Luther in Piscatura Petri. 14 Caluin lib. 3. cap. 12. sect . 4. 15 Caluin lib. 3. cap. 4. sect . 38. 16 Luther Tom. 1. epist . fol. 334. 17 Luther Ser. de Matrimon . 18 Luther Ibidem . 19 Luther Ibidem . 20 Luther Tom. 5. Ger. fol. 324. 21 Luther Epist . ad Wald. de Eucha . 22 Luther ad cap. 9. Ionae . 23 Luther in 5. par . post . German . fol. 140. and Tindall alledged by Fox , Actes pag. 1137. 24 Caluin lib. 3. Instit . cap. 4. sect . 28. 25 Wotton in his Answ . to the Popish Art. pag. 41. 26 Luther Ser. de Pisc . Petri. 27 Zwinglius Tom. 1. fol. 288. 28 Luther Ser. de Cruce . 29 Disput . Ratisb . pag. 463. 30 Swinglius Tom. 1 fol. 268. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A19456-e130 Caluin . in c. 30. Isa . Hermonia ad cap. 3. Mat. v. 12. I. Instit . c. 25. n. 12. Luther in Postilla supra Euangel . dom . 1. aduentus . a Luth. de abroganda missa priuata , editione prima . b I call it new foūd , because I finde not in Scripture or in the ancient Fathers that a man is made iust by confidently beleeuing that hee is Iust , but rather by humbly acknowledging ones selfe to be a sinner , as appeareth in the Parable of the Pharisee and the Publican . Luke 18. Gal ▪ 5. * Which whether it bee white or blacke , Zuinglius himselfe could not tell . Notes for div A19456-e550 Caluin . Caluin . Luther . Willet . Hofman . Fulke . Hofman . Whittaker . Luther . Illiricus . A●●●ders . Luther . Luther . Caluin . Luther . Luther . Luther . Luther . Luther . Luther . Luther . Luther . Tindall . Caluin . Wotton . Luther . Zuinglius . Luther . Caluin . Zuinglius . 
A15697	----	The fore-runner of Bels dovvnefall wherin, is breifely answered his braggnig [sic] offer of disputation, and insolent late challenge: the particularties [sic] of the confutation of his bookes, shortly by goddes grace to be published, are mentioned: with à breife answere, to his crakinge and calumnious confutinge of papistes by papistes them selues: and lastly à taste. Giuen of his rare pretended sinceritye, with som few examples. Woodward, Philip, ca. 1557-1610. 1605 Approx. 73 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A15697 STC 25972.5 ESTC S114156 99849384 99849384 14525 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A15697) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 14525) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 855:15, 1979:11) The fore-runner of Bels dovvnefall wherin, is breifely answered his braggnig [sic] offer of disputation, and insolent late challenge: the particularties [sic] of the confutation of his bookes, shortly by goddes grace to be published, are mentioned: with à breife answere, to his crakinge and calumnious confutinge of papistes by papistes them selues: and lastly à taste. Giuen of his rare pretended sinceritye, with som few examples. Woodward, Philip, ca. 1557-1610. Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610, attributed name. [2], 59, [1] p. Printed by C. Boscard], [Douai : Anno M.DC.V. [1605] Signed at end: B.C., i.e. Philip Woodward. Misattributed to Robert Parsons. A reply to: Bell, Thomas. The downefall of poperie. Place of publication and printer's name from STC. Running title reads: The fore-runner, of Bels downefal. Identified as STC 19407 on reel 855. Reproductions of the original in the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery. Appears at reel 855 and at reel 1979 (same copy filmed twice). Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bell, Thomas, fl. 1593-1610. -- Downefall of poperie -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Catholic Church -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2005-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Fore-runner of Bels Dovvnefall , Wherin , is breisely answered his braggnig offer of disputation , and insolent late challenge : the particularties of the confutation of his bookes , shortly by goddes grace to be published , are mentioned : with à breife answere , to his crakinge and calumnious confutinge of Papistes by Papistes them selues : and lastly à taste . Giuen of his rare pretended sinceritye , with som few examples . Ierem. 51. v. 44. I wil visit Bel vpon Babilon , and cast forth of his mouth , that which he hath swallowed vp : and the gentils shal no more flocke vnto him and that because the wall of Babilon shall fall downe , ANNO M. D C. V. THE FORE-RVNNER OF BELS DOVVNEFAL . The vaine and foolishe title of his booke , with a note of a quadruple deuise , which he vseth to winne him self credit , and to endomage the Catholike cause . CHAP. I. THERE came lately to my handes , a certaine booke presented the last Easter tea●me to the viewe of the worlde , by one Thomas Bell , long since à Minister , after that a Preist , and for some yeares past , and at this present , Sicut erat in principio : as it was in the begininge : a Minister againe : in which state he meaneth constantly to continue , vntil the Lord by new reuelation shal otherwise dispose of his person . The title of his booke looketh bigge as though it had eaten buls-beife , and accordinge to the comon sayinge , as the Deuile lockt ouer Lincolne , and is readie to quarrel with any Papist whatsoeuer : this it is . The Downefal of Poperie proposed by way of a new challenge , to al Englishe Iesuites , and Iesuited , or Italianized Papistes : daringe them al ioyntlie , and euery one of them seuerally , to make answere thereunto , if they can , or haue any truth on their side : knowinge for truth , that otherwise al the worlde wil crye with open mouthes , Fye vpon them , and their patched hotch-potch religion . This name of his booke by al probabilitie , was giuen by the godfather , when he was in the ruffe of his roperye , and came hastely into the kitchin , from some homely place , where a bad sent had intertained his smellinge instrumēt ( daungerous in these times of infection for an emptie stomake ) and not findinge there any meate meete for his ministerships mouth , but only an odd hotch-potch , fel into some cholerike pange , in which distemperature returninge to his studye , the title was begotten ; for otherwise why him self , being à patched minister , created of two recantations , should cal our religion à patched hotch-potch I cannot see , nor I thynke him self , hauing yet the eies of two ministres , and one Preist . Our church hath not stoode simperinge in a close pot , or poore pipkin , no man can tel where , for I know not for how many hundred yeares together , as their cōgregation hath ( which though falsely pretended , is the best cloake they can finde to couer the shame oft hir naked continuance ) but hath alwayes borne saile in the sight of the worlde , maugre the malice of the deuile , and al the tempestes of persecution , that the furies of hell could raise : Neither is our religion patched together of many mamockes of olde stinkinge heretical assertions , as their faith is , where denienge of prayers for the dead , and the appointed fastes of the Church , borowed from Aerius : scorninge of reliques , scoffinge at inuocations of Saintes , reiectinge voluntary pouertie , and allowance of Preistes , taken from Vigilantius , raylinge at the holy Crosse , and sacred Images : receiued from Iulian the Apostata , and miscreant Mahumetanes : and diuers other such like fragments , scraped together , be in their congregatione entertained for heauenlye articles : and so whether it may not truly be tearmed , à patched hotch-poch religion , and godles galimamphorye of a new gospel , I leaue to indifferent iudgment . Diuers other bookes in former times , hath he also diuulged , ( for he had rather be ill occupied then idle ) each of them , one so like another , that any man may easely knowe them to be puppies of one litter , & sundrie puddles stewinge from one sincke . In al which the principal scope he outwardly aymeth at , is the ouerthrowe of Poperie , as he speaketh , and the aduancement of the truth : but whether any Pharaisaicall makinge broade his phylacteries , and enlarging his fringes , the loue of the first places at suppers , and the first chayres in the Sinagoges , and salutations in the market place , and to be called of men Rabbi , hath also his share , and diuide stakes , that is councel to any , and a mysterie so secretlye carried , that it is without the compasse of al humane diuination : for the happie effecting of these his designements , and to procure credit with his readers , ( for I thinke he hath litle with his hearers ) like an olde soldiear and beaten Captaine he vseth many stratagems , but especially fower . The first is , to prouoke , to challenge , to dare al learned men , to the combat . for would any man in his wittes , make such an offer , were he not moste assured of victory , and to triumphe ouer the Romans , that haue so often triumphed ouer others ? The second is , with great sorrowe of sowle to lament , that he can get no answere to his bookes , and vtterly to dispaire euer to see any such thinge effectually attempted : an euident demonstration , that they be of rare erudition , and truth in his side . The third is an inuection ( if we liste to beleue him of his owne , as Thraso said in Terence ) and that is to ouerthrowe papistry , by papistry it self , and to ruine our saith , by the principal professors and patrons of our religion . Mary god blesse vs from this Bell , for neuer was there such à peale runge in our dayes , or in the dayes of our forefathers . The fourth and laste is , his saint-like protestation of sincerity , vpright dealinge , and hādlinge al thinges accordinge to equitie and conscience . These be the mayne bulwarkes of his bookes , framed by this excellēt engenite , both to defend them selues , and to batter vs : Al which not withstandinge , are nothinge els but skearcrowes , & painted paper walles , seeme they neuer so terrible to simple soules : Spiders webbes are strong ynoughe to make bootye of flyes and gnattes , weake nettes to catch swalowes and greater birdes . And I wil not deny , that he might with some pretie credit , haue tampered amonge litle ones , who are soone scandalized , but when wich phantastical conceit he supposeth , that he can contriue the ruine of gods Church , or confounde al learned Catholikes whatsoeuer . Sutor vltra crepidam the Cobler is beyond his shoe , and he doth walke ( as the Prophet saith ) in great and wonderful thinges aboue him self . His malice is great , but his power nothing corespondent . He is a curst cowe , but with short hornes : wherfore let him striue againste Catholike veritie , struggle with God and Church , war against heauen : repentance ( god graunt that not fruitles ) wil be the end of his labours : and perpetual disgrace , ( without diuine amendinge grace ) the iust rewarde of his vvorkes . If any ouerswaied with a false weeninge , thinke otherwise , let him haue a litle patience , voutsafe the reading of this smale treatise , and he shal see his fower forts ( by one that acknowledgeth him self inferior to thousands in Gods church ) fiered about his eares : let vs breifly runne them al ouer . Bel seemeth wonderful desirous of disputation in wordes , and yet in deedes refuseth the same . With an indifferend offer of trial . CHAP. II. MVch ianglinge hath the minister kept since his laste reformation , & like a Ffleet-streete hackster iustileth at Iesuits , showldreth Seminaries , braueth al the learned men of christendome ; so desirous is he to manifest his manhoode , to exercise his talent , and to shew the worlde some tricke of his cuninge . This humor of his he discouereth in his motiues : The same vauntinge vaine hunteth him in his Surueye : In his huntinge of the Romishe fox , though it be but a petty pamphlet , yet is he once or twice harpinge on the same stringe : And in his Counterblast , with in solēt wordes & opprobrious tearmes , he dareth Iesuites , and Seminaries , to answere his bookes . And lastly in his late Downefalle , he proclaymeth à new challenge , couragiously castinge out his daringe dartes : and in the end of his preface ; and euery seueral chapter , as though he had bene apprentice to some ballad maker , the foote of the songe runneth after this manner : Answere o Papistes if you can , if ye cannot so doe , then repent for shame , and yeelde vnto the truth : And at the heeles of one of them followeth this fearful , and formidable adiuration . I challenge you , I prouoke you to the combatte , I adiure you al ioyntlie , and euery one of you seuerally , for the creditt of your cause , for the honor of your Pope , and the life of Popish doctrine , which now lieth bleedinge , and wil shortly yeelde vp the ghost , if some soueraigne remedie be not speedely prouided for the same . The minister may take care for his winding sheete , gods church is in no daunger , the more she bleedeth out such corrupt , and pestilent humors as he is , the better is hir estate . He muste pardonvs , we relie more vpon Christes promise for hir perpetual continuance , then vpon his lyinge lippe , for hir shorte yeeldinge vp the ghost . we make no dout but that he mightely enuieth her felicitie , and greedely thirsteth after hir destruction . But as litle doe we doubt , but that she shal stil liue and endure , rumpantur vt ilia Codro , although he frett out his bowelles with greife and enuie . Desiderium peccatorum peribit , the desier of sinners ( such as he is ) shal perishe . Thus the minister braggeth & braueth others to disputation , either by worde or writinge , and like à desperate cowarde , feareth not to fight with any , prouided alwayes that they be far ynough of , and him self out of al daunger : and so he sheweth him self of as resolute a courage , as the coliar of Croidon , who litle fearinge the Maior of Londons authoritie , out with his purse , and like a liberall gentlman , gaue him that liuerie which would better haue beseemed some body els : but yet not before he was six miles out of towne . Yf he take him self for such à silogistical swashbuckler , that nothinge but present death , to approache the sphere of his disputant actiuitie , why did he neuer vouchsafe to visit Wisbiche , where he might haue wonne him self imortal fame , if he could by his learninge and force of arguments , either haue transformed them from Papistes to ministers ( as by special reuelation he hath chaunged him self ) or els by his potent proofes , so set them agrounde , that their fauorable auditors should haue condoled their dismolle misfortune , seing them so battered with Bell bullets , and put to so disgratious confusion : was he doubtful of findinge them at home ? it cannot be , their busines lay alwayes within doores , and he might haue bene as sure of them , as though they had bene fast shut vp in a Castle . was he vnwillinge to take so longe à iorney ? no iuste cause of any such suspition , when he offereth about the like busines , with a safe conduct to repare into any parte of Christendome . why did he not also whett his wittes vpon Master Wrighte his countryman , who was longe time prisoner in the Clinke , and for his learninge wel knowen to the whole realme , hauinge bin assaulted by the flower of our Cleargie chiualrie : but as for this challenger , neuer could I heare that euer he durst come nere him : by which the gentle reader may gather , that the heauenly influēce of his coniuringe , worketh not any rare effect , but where none is present to entertaine him ( for there he shameth , disgraceth , and confoundeth al , be they neuer so learned , and none can be founde that dare take vp the bucklers againste him ) and that vpon the dunghille of his owne parishe , he ietteth vp and downe like à cocke of courage , vvith his bigge barbles , and threatninge cox-come , crowinge moste fearefully : marry where any occation is offered of blowes , or knockinge cheere , there he creepeth pittifully , like à poore par'd capon , with a thinne paier of gylles , that came lately from Katherin cutter , or like a mungrille curr of the countrie , that with his tayle clapt betwixt his legges , and cringled backe , sneaketh away as faste as he can trudge , for feare of such a breakfaste as he list not to come at . This is the magnanimous spiritt of worthie Sir Thomas , or els why hath he not repaired to these places , where his longinge might haue bin satisfied : or if he desiered to manifest him self to the world , or to seeke for the common good of many , why did he not procure by that great grace & fauour which his desartes hath purchased him in court , wherof him self to his comfort , maketh mention , that he might in publike audience , haue scufled with these ignorant Iesuits , and curried ouer the coates of these sillie Seminaries . And be it spoken in a good hovver , if his longinge be not gone , nor his disputinge heate cooled , there is no time yet past : for not long since , an humble supplication vvas exhibited to his Maiestie , vvherin vvith dutifull respect , the fauour of an indifferent disputation vvas sued for . Mistris Suctliffe as the bruite goeth , beinge quicker of hir fingers , and more nimble of conceiptes , got the start of hir husband , and so hath had the glorie of the first ansvvere , Sir Mathevv hir mate , like a kinde com●ade , hath seconded hir , and set forth an other : and so bootelesse to vvrite any more : The only course that Bell for his creditt can take , is to make earnest suite , that he may haue the honor of the disputation ; novv let him speake , or for euer hould his peace . Is disputation vvith him novv out of request , and his minde chaunged , as it may vvell be , seinge he hath made greater mutations then that , and had he rather shevv his valor in an indifferent conference : if so : then vvill I offer him faire playe , and that is , if he please to be the defendand of his ovvne bookes , vvith vvhich he should be best acquainted , and in all reason ought to defend , I vvil be the opponent , and take vpon me notvvithstandinge all his protestation of sinceritie , to conuince him of many coseninge trickes , sundrie notable lies , and diuers grosse corruptions , Let him therefore proue his frendes , and procure that it may be obtained , vvith those equall cōdicions vvhich vvere graunted to the Protestants in the presence of the French kinge . And if any intreaty vvil farther so honest a suite , vvhich to him , if his harte and pen agree together , can not but be grateful , and imbraced vvith all the povvers of his soule , then I request him of all curtesie , and for that comon good vvhich may redound to many , earnestly desire him , that he vvil straine his creditt ( if it be not at the highest and in danger of breaking ) that vve may meete in the listes and make experience quid possit vterque , vvhat either of vs offensiuely and defensiuely can performe . If he stande vpon his punctoes , and disdaigne all humble kinde of proceedinge , as nothing fittinge his braue braggarie , nor his mountinge and ouerlookinge humor , thinkinge it smale reputation to combatt with abase peticioner : then to keepe proportion to answere his vaine , and also not to giue one inche of ground in the quarrel of gods truth , for who is this vncircumcised Philistian , that hath dared to rayle vpon the armye of the liuinge god ? I challenge this challenginge cowarde , dare and redare , this daringe dastard , that he wilfor the honor of his cause , the creditt of his learninge , and defence of his braginge and insolent bookes , labour effectually , that we may in manner aforesaid grapple together . Yf he refuse this condicion , so reasonable , so iuste , so indifferent , no remedy but I muste come vpon him , with à lawe case of nouerint vniuersi . Be it knowen to all men , that the date of his learninge is out , his great and flowinge courage daunted , and drawen drie : proclaime him cōtemptible , and banckrout , hauinge broken with his owne dependants and creditors , and expose him for a iestinge stocke to all Christian people , from generation to generation world without end . Amen . That Bels bookes haue longe since receiued their answere , with the particuler contents of the same , and though vpon iust occasion it hath hitherto bin suppressed , yet shortly by gods grace to be set forth . CHAP. III. VVHeras Bel hath passed hitherto vncontrolled , and vvithout ansvvere , partly for that by some of iudgmēt not any vvas thought necessary ( of such course stuffe be they made ) partly for other iuste reasons , hereafter more at lardge to be handled ; the minister maketh his comoditie thereof , and vvould haue the vvorlde to thinke , that not lack of good vvil , but vvant of skill , hath made Catholikes so longe silent : and all this to alienate mens mindes from the faith of their forefathers , as a religion that cannot stande in feilde againste him , and for that cause hath bin vtterly left destitue of all defence . And albeit he had intelligence by a Catholike booke ( as him self confesseth ) sett out in then'de of the yeare 1602 , that the confutation of his vvorkes vvas vndertaken , and to be published if it should be thought conuenient ( and one parricular point in the same touched , vvhich did not alitle vvringe his mastership on the vvalles , though he set agood face on the matter , and for the ease of his stomake , entertained the said booke vvith the eloquent flovvers of Shameles pamphlet , Sourrilous libel , and a rude lyinge hotch-pot of omnigitherum : reuelleth also at the author , him self , tearminge him in the lenity of his spiritt , Swaggeringe diuine , Shameles calumniator , sowle-mouthed swaggeringe diuine , impudent lyer , and brasen face ) yet by no meanes vvill he beleeue , that there vvas euer any such thinge intended indeede : Iust as the false Prophetts persvvaded the Ievvs , that the kinge of Babilon vvould not come vpon them , nor their countrye : and therfor to haue it giuen out that there is any such confutation , he reputeth it but for adeuise , to dazell ( as he saieth ) the eies of the simple readers , and of others , that shal heare thereof , that they may stil be scduced with popish legierdemaine , from time to time , and not behould the sun shininge at noonetide , who all in the end must receiue the iust rewarde of their follie , euen the slapp of a fox tayle . Thus the minister is pleasant , recreateth him self and his readers with his merry conceites , but if in conclusion the confutation doe come forth , as by gods grace it shall , with that conuenient speed , which the time , and other occurrents will permitt , is he not then like those that leremie speaketh of , proued a false Prophett , and doe not they that beleeue him ( as I thinke there be very few , let him prattle what he liste ) shew them selues very sillie sheepe , to follow such a bel-weather ; and that they must in the end receiue the iust rewarde of their folly , euen the blessinge of an Asse tayle . Agayne in the very same place , dispairinge euer to see the effect of any such attempt , he lamenteth , his distressed case , in this dolefll manner . No no my dearest they meane nothinge lesse . They wil neuer while I liue , publish any such confutation : their owne consciences condemne them , they knowe they are not able to performe it , I would most gladly ( I protest before god and the worlde ) once see any such confutation duringe my life . Surelie he is much to blame to discomfort him self without all cause . He may very wel liue to see it , and yet die sooner much then he would . Let him not be dismayed , for I can assure him of myne owne knowledge that our consciences doe not condemne vs , neither doe wee knowe that we are not able to performe as great a matter as that . To giue the more creditt to my wordes , and somwhat to reuiue his dead spiritts , I will here giue him a note of the nomber of the bookes , and their particular contents . They be in all Fiue , written againste his motiues , and Surueye fiue yeares agoe . The first booke contayneth many of his notable vntruthes , corruptions , and falsifications . The second presenteth a gallant and desperate fraye , betwixt the reformed minister of Bascall , and Thomas Bel preacher of the worde : all the clubbes in London being not able to part them . For such a grace he hath in writinge , that he falleth into grosse contradictions , and what he saieth in one place , not feldome he vnsaieth in another . The third handleth a couple more of extra . ordinary , and choice contradictions , worthie for their dignitie , to haue a speciall place by them selues . In the first ( which hath diuers proofes ) he condemneth him self , and his owne congregation ( the defence whereof he hath vndertaken ) for the maintayners of false , hereticall , and blasphemous doctrine . A pointe worthie to be considered of by his bretheren , for he giueth them moste iuste cause , to suspect him of playinge bootye , and that his hart is still an harbourer of Poperie , or at leaste not replenished with the liuely liquour of the new gospell : And though he laboureth to purge him self of that suspition , and sweareth deuoutly , yet may they come vpon him as those caterpillers did vpon S. Peter vvith a loquela tua te manifestum facit , thy speech doth bewraye thee . In the second ( fortified also with diuers reasons ) he acknowledgeth our faith ( which with might and maine he would seeme to oppugne ) to be the truth , and that very religion which Iesus Christ god & man , brought from the bosome of his father , and planted in the worlde : so that the Protestants haue againe iuste cause to complaine of him ( as Balec did of Balaam ) for blessinge those whom they expected he should haue cursed : and worthelie to haue him in iealousie as being fled to them with the same minde , that Chusai Arachites did from Dauid , to the campe & seruice of Absalō . The fourth entreateth of the weake groundes of his vvorkes , to vvitt , vvhat deceites he vseth in reasoninge , with exsamples , for more perspicuitie and light : what treacherous trickes also he practiseth , concerninge Doctors and Fathers , Councells and Scripture : so that the reader shal haue a perfect Anatomy of the corrupt body of his bookes , with their manifolde maladies and diseases : and with all behould all his foundations and ground workes vndermined , and his fortifications blowen vp . The fifth and last , shall answere the recapitulation of his Suruey or as he partlie speaketh , the Perioch : in which he would shew at what time , diuers points of our religion came in . And although what hitherto hath bin written , concerneth only his first two bookes , yet will I now take the paynes , to veiw ouer those also , which came out after : as that terrible tooth-lesse bitinge beagell , called the huntinge of the Romishe Fox : the naturall ympe of his motiues and Suruey , begotten by them in sinne and iniquitie : it resembleth the parentes so liuelie , as though it had crept out of their mouthes : his Goulden Ballance also , with the yoake-fellowe . The Counterblast : and lastely his late Downefal , and what in them I shall thinke meete accordinge to the order propounded , by rancke in his due place . Yf ought els be added , for exsample a more particular reply to the challenge of his Downfall , that must be counted for a worke of superarogation : what reason hath he now to feare that he shall die before he see his confusion . Tender boughes and younge leaues as scripture saith , and experience teach , are a token that sommer is at hand , the particularities likewise before mētioned , as buddes shootinge forth , are a signe of more plentifull blosomes shortlie to followe , if the colde easterne winde of pouertie , doth not hinder the growinge , and keepe back the springe . My principall hope is in our good Lord , that as he hath giuen me a minde to write , polishe , and set forth the worke , so he wil asiste me , not only with health and libertie , but also furnishe me with all those thinges , which for such an exploit be necessarie . Yf his diuine wisedome , which reacheth from end euen to end mightely , and disposeth all thinges sweetlie shal othervvise ordanie , his name be blessed : humaine councels , must with al obedience yeald to heauenly prouidēce : only I would haue the curteous reader to vnderstande , and Bell to knowe , that there shall be no fault in me , for performinge of what soeuer is promised , more then which , neither can I in reason assure , nor any with equitie euer expect . That Papistes doe not oppugue papistes as Bel vainely vaunteth : with the discouery of a double slight , which concerninge this point he practiseth . CHAP. IIII. THe principall thinge wherein Bel would be thought to out runne his fellowe ministers ( if any he hath ) and to vvin the bel from them al , is a certaine singular gift , and superexcellent dexteritie , of confoundinge our religion , by the professors of our faith , and setting one Papist together by the eares with an other . This new inuention of his in the epistle dedicatorie of his motiues , dedicated to the right Honorable lords of the Councell , him self calleth A rare methodical discourse , such is the rare humilitie of the reformed order , and the memorie therof is so gratefull , that he is often twanglinge vpon this stringe . to omitt other places in his late Downfal ( though long since a fowle downefall brake the neck of his soule ) he obserueth , That popish religion hath alwayes beene condemned of great learned papistes , that liued in the popes church . and in another place his margent telleth vs , that The Papistes graunt as much as they desier : which I would willingly confesse to be true , were not he in sayinge so a notable liar . How then cometh it to passe , will some say , that vsually he alleadgeth Catholike authors againste chatholicke doctrine ? The question is quicklie answered ; it is not their default , but his fraude , not his great learning , but litle conscience that is the cause thereof . The scriptures are daylie for diuers mad purposes vvrested and wroung , cleane a gainst the heate , and cōtrarie to their true sence & meaninge , as all knowe , and yet no blame to be laid vpon the sacred text , but vpon those crooked Apostles that depraue them , to their owne and others perdition . Yf the word of god may be peruerted , mens writinge haue no such priueledge , but that they may meete with false fingers , such as Bels bee ; and therfore I giue him to vnderstand that he abuseth gods church , deceiueth his ignorant reader , and iniureth Catholike authors , whē he would make the vvorld beleeue , that our owne Docters doe wounde our religion : They are cleere from the crime obiected : al the suspition which is grovven , taketh roote from his malice , and not from any desert of theirs , they carry not tvvo faces vnder one hoode , nor blovve hoate and colde out of one mouth ( as some doe euery way as honest as Thomas Bel , and yet bad inoughe ) as I intende more breiflie to let the reader to vnderstand . Tvvo slightes he vseth to dazell the eies of vnlearned men , persvvading them that the spirituall souldiars of the Catholike church , haue turned their vveapons to their mutual destruction . The first & that moste grosse , shamefull , and common , is , to falsifie , or by one vvay or other to depraue such sentences as he produceth : for proofe vvhereof , I referr the reader for a litle triall to the next chapter , vvhere he shall finde some fevv exsamples : more choise of such vvares , he shall finde at the next mart , vvhere his foule fardle shal be laid open to the veivv of all . The second is , Whereas Catholike vvriters haue diuersitie of opinions , vvith vnitie of religion , dissenting in smale matters , as namely those , vvhich vvee cal schoole-questiōs , but neuer disagreeing in any artickle of faith , no one euer formally opposinge him self , against any thinge defined in generall councell , for no such president can he bringe forth , yet he maketh his tounge to vvalke , and vvould haue the vvorld to thinke , that one Papist doth massacre another , and that vve had varietie in artickles of faith ( as though the lunasie of the Protestants had infected vs : ) Plentifull exsamples hereof vve haue in his booke of motiues , I vvill breifly cite one : Many papistes ( quoth he ) as Aquinas Richardus &c. doe hould , that a simple Preist , by vertu of the Popes dispensation , may lawfully and effectualy , minister their Sacrament of Confirmation . We vvillingly graunt it , as being the moste receiued and common opinion : vvhat of all this ? But this opinion ( saith he ) is stoutly impugned by other great papistes , to witt , Bonauentura , Alphonsus , Durandus , Scotus Maior , &c. Be it so , what then ? such dissention as this , is without any violation of faith at all . O ( saith he ) what gteater and more important dissention can be then this ? for Confirmation is a Sacrament with the Papists . If he knewe not , and be content to learne I wil teach him . A far greater dissention it were , euen in this verie point of Confirmation , if some hould it to be à Sacrament , and others did denie it : the disagreemēt was of the extraordinary minister of the Sacrament ( which is no such important matter as he would inforce ) of the Sacrament it self they made no question . doe not we knowe that the Protestants them selues allowe , and prescribe the signe of the crosse in Baptisme , and that the Puritanes detest it : that they in necessitie permitt lay people to baptise , and these thinke it such a prophanation of that sacred misterie , that they had rather suffer infants to die without baptisme ( so great a zeale they haue to pack them to hell warde ) Should I come vpon him for this varitie , and crie out after this manner : what greater and more important dissention can be then this , for Baptisme is a Sacrament with them : would he not condemne me for a notable wrangler , seinge they contend not whether Baptisme be a Sacrament or no , but obout other questions , to vvitt of a certaine ceremonie , and the extraordinary minister , which they make no great account of . Let him then queitly take him self by the sleeue , and see whether the measure will not serue ( and much better ) to make for his ministershipp a liuery of the same cloath . Were the dissentions in the Protestants congregation , of no more fundamentall points then ours bee , it should not daily be shaken with such terrible earthquakes , and to the great disgrace of a new timbered gospell , for lack of good worke manshipp , be in daunger of fallinge : but alas they are continually brawling like beggars , and lie lugginge together by the eares , about the verie sinnowes and soule of their religion , in endles quarrells and contentions . Luther and Zwinglins are proclaimed by M. Iewell , that Patriarchal challenger , for moste excellent men sent of god to giue light to the world . and yet did Luther defend till death , the true , reall , and substātiall presence of Christes bodie in the Sacrament , giueinge his black blessinge to all those that taught otherwise . Zwinglius for all that , hauinge the spiritt no lesse then Luther , vtterly denied the reall presence , contemninge his curse , and disdayninge to followe the light of his lanterne : such svveete agreement there vvas betvvixt these tvvo moste excellent men sent of god . Can Bell deny this to be true , or that this point of religion is materiall , as vpon vvhich dependeth saluation or damnation : I knovve him to be a braue minded man , and one that dare venture as far for the credit of the gospell as an other : Yet I suppose he vvill neuer stand vpon any tearmes , but queitly admitt both the one and the other for knovven truthes : and then must I be so boulde as to demaunde , hovv he can defend one of these heauenly prophetes , from being an heretike and damnable doctor ; and so vvith the candle of false doctrine , to haue shevven his follovvers the vvay to euerlastinge darknes . The minister is quick sighted to behould a mote in our eie , but he cannot see a beame in his ovvne . May vve not iustly say to him vvith our Sauiour , Hipocrite cast out first the beame out of thine owne eie , and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote of thy brothers eie . To leaue Germanie and speake of the professors of our owne contrie : Doe not the Protestants thinke the dignitie , & superiority of Bishopps and Archbishopps agreable to gods vvord : and yet doe the Puritanes in the name of the lorde ( by their champion Martin Mar-prelat and his mutinous make bates , that band vnder his colors ) crie out ( as Thomas Rogers saith , and it is no councell to any ) that their callinge is vnlawfull , that they be ministers of Antechrist , worse then friars and monkes , deuiles bishoppes , and diuelles incarnate . netheir as I suppose will he say that this is a triflinge question , for feare of scandalizinge litle ones . Aerius of vvhom vve spake before , vvas condemned of heresie for equallinge Preistes vvith Bishopps . Could Bell haue the luck to finger an Ouerseer ship ( to vse his ovvne phrase , that he may the better knovve my meaninge ) then vvere the matter cock sure , and a flatt heresie indeede to mainteine any such assertion : mary till then great vvisdome to proceede vvith deliberation , to runne vvith the hare , & hould vvith the hounde : flatter on the one side , and faune on the other . Can he not reade ridles , Dauns est non Oedipus . By the next post he shall knowe more of my meaninge , in the meane time let him feede in his hart vpon this by faith and be thankfull . Bel pretendeth great sinceritye like à true Apostle , and yet like à false Apostata vseth it not , with some few exsamples of his malitious and corrupt manner of proceedinge , CHAP. V. VVHere deceipt is intēded , there the Protestacion of sincerity , vpright dealinge , and a tender conscience , as a necessary preparation must be pretended . for this is the goulden baite to angle ignorant soules , and the cōmon cloake of coseninge companions . Iuglers tuck vp their sleeues , open their handes , and make shew of the plainest dealinge in the worlde : False Prophetts put on sheepes cloathinge , and the deuill transformeth him self into an Angell of light . Iesabell proclaimed afast , when she sought the blood of innocent Naboth , and the Aposte assureth vs , that certaine false teachers and belly gods did by Sweete speeches and benedictions , seduce the hartes of innocents . Bell as though he were made of no other elements then sincere dealinge , and had not so much as the skill to foist in a lie , or to mangle and mayme a sentence , speaketh often of conscience , and honest proceedinge , and of his owne free motion and liberality , entereth into a bande of subscribinge , and forfaiture of his creditt , if he can be conuinced of the conrrarie . In the epistle of his Downefall To all englishe Iesuites , seminary preistes , &c. thus he writeth . In my firste booke published in the yeare . 1593. I premised to yeelde if you could conuince me , either to haue alleadged any writer corruptly , or to haue quoted any place guylefullie , or to haue charged any author falesly . Yea and in the same place he addeth , thath he will neuer require creditt at the readers hand , ether in that booke or any other to be published hereafter , if any such thinge can be proued against him . Vpon this foundation dependeth all the reputation of his workes , and that litle creditt which he hath gotten with his simple followers : for if he be such a sincere writer , as he protesteth , and so consideratiue and respectiue in the peninge of his bookes , that no suspicion of misreportinge , or corruption , can be iustlie fastned vpon him , then doth it euidently followe , that we haue greate dissentions , in matters of faith , and that our Doctors , be the bane of Catholicke doctrine , and then no marueil if he make challenge vpon challenge , and remayne vnanswered , when as not only our enimies , but also those that we take for our frendes , and relye vpon , stande in open feilde againste vs , and haue as it were sworne our destruction . But if on the contrary plaine euidence shall conuince , that he maketh no scruple of lyinge , no conscience of falsification , is not his hopocritical sanctitie double iniquitie , and Bel proued the sonne of Belial , and is not the maine piller that beareth vp al his braue buildinge , and glorious turretts ouerthrowen , and him self with his applaudinge mates , in the midest of their pastime , crushed , and stroken dead as the insultinge Philistians were by the seruant of god Sampson ? whether this be so or no remayneth now breifly to be handled : to iustifie mine accusation , I will runn ouer afew passages of his late challenge , because that is of latest date , and therfore of al likelyhoode moste grateful to the reader : of whom I desier not any extraordinarie fauour , but that which none can denie to be indifferent and reasonable : and that is , as vpon my bare wordes I would not haue him to discredit Bel , and beleeue me , for that sauoured , either of partialitie , or of indiscreet kinde of proceedinge : so nether vpon his affirmation , to condemne vs , and to commend him , for that were also opposite to all equitie : but as they haue longe lent the plantife one eare , so now a litle to afforde the defendant the other ; and seriouslie to to examine our depositions , and take some panies to trie the truth of our relations , and then a gods name let them thinke as the very force of proofes and allegations shal induce them , and freely speake what they thinke : and so haue a crashe at his challenginge Downefall . I. PAg. 40. Thus he cometh ouer the Pope . Antonius ( quoth he ) a man of no smale creditt ( for he was an Archbishop of the Popish stampe , and by the Pope reported for a Saint ) hath these wordes . Reperiturtamen Martinus quintus dispensasse cum quodam qui contraxerat & consummauerit matrimonium cum quadam eius germana . Neuerthelet it is knowen that Pope Martin the fift , did dispence with one who had contracted , and consummated matrimonie , with his owne natural and fulsister , of the same father , and same mother , fot so much the word ( Germana , doth import . Behould here gentle reader , the excellency of holy Poperie , and if thou desierest more of such melodie , thou maiest finde it in my booke of Motiues , but this is here a sufficient antepast for all our English Iesuites , and Iesuited popelinges . none are so ignorant but they knowe that only god can giue licence , to marrie a mans owne natural sister . This place he bringeth to proue ( as his wordes goinge before import , and these now cited insinuate as much ) that te Pope taketh vpon him that power , which is proper to god alone : and the matter as he handleth it seemeth so odious , that some no question condemne vs highlie vpon his reporte , and my self was since the cominge forth of his booke , assaulted with this very question , so markeable it is in eueri mans eie . But as it is nothinge preiudicial to the Catholike faith , were it true , so beinge moste false , it cannot but launce the ministers reputation , and goare the very intralles of his best creditt . First therfor I say that it is nothinge preiudicial to the catholike faith were it true : For we defend not al the particular factes of any , though Popes : we knowe that they may erre , either by wronge informacion , yea or of wilful malice . Their vniust actions ( for which they must render account to god ) hurte them selues , and their owne soules , catholike religion no reason it is they should hurt though weaklinges may be scandalized . Glorious S. Augustin hauing reckned vp al the bishopps of Rome , from S. Peter to Anastatius , thereby to cōfounde the Donatist heretikes , because as he saith . In this order of succession , there is none founde a Donatist bishop , straight wayes to stop the mouthes of any , that leapinge from faith to manners , might truly or falselie haue obiected the bad life or fact of some Pope , he addeth these wordes for a salue : If in these times any traitor should haue crept into that order of Bishopps , which is deriued from Peter him selfe euen to Anastasius , who now sitteth in the same chaire , it should haue bin no preiudice to the church , and innocent christians , for whom our lord prouiding said whatsoeuer they shal say doe yee , but doe not those thinges which theye doe , for they say , and doe not . A certaine Prelats daughter in this realme , and wel affected to the worde , by the countenance and assistance of hir father , turnd of hir olde husbād a grasing , and betooke hir selfe to à new , Is Bel content that this detestable fact should disgrace their religion , or that vpon this we infer , that Superintendent to haue taken vpon him the power proper to god alone , or rather more ( seing god cannot geue leaue to a woman to haue two husbandes , neither can any such president be showen , but of brothers that married their sisters we haue in Adams children ) Yf not : because he may truly say , that such exorbitant actions proceede not infallibly or vsually , from any such luciferian conceit , but rather from passion or malice , which , doe not seldome , peruert the iudgment of men in authoritie , and make them runn headlonge in to grosse errors : then might he very wel haue spared his winde , and odious declamation against Martin the fifth . I would not here wishe him to come to fiercely vpon me , for that I touch the matter so lightlie , and threaten me the bastinado , for standeringe an Ouerseear of the gospel , for if he be so liuely and pert , let him not thinke , but that I wil stand vpon my lawful defence , and be readie to entertaine him , with Stafford law , and by S. Chad , that good Bishopp of Lincolne , I hope to make my partie good . Secondly I tell him , that his lippes haue lashed out to lustilie , and that he hath wickedly slaundred Pope Martin , and moste perfidiously corrupted Antonius . The very title of the chapter might haue taught him , that he was in error : or at least haue giuen him a greater caueat better to consider the matter , for it is De affinitate : of affinitie : and therfore had the Pope giuen one licence to marry his owne natural sister ; he had dispensed in consanguinitie , and so nothinge fittinge the matter intreated of in that chapter . But what doe I speake of error : when as monstrons malice , and extremitie of hatred againste the church , and Sea Apostolicke , made him set a broach this shameles vntruth , for otherwise he would neuer haue smothered the wordes followinge , the witnesses of his false doctrine ; nor euer haue giuen a false glose and translation , to those which he doth cite . The truth is this : Martin the fifth dispensed not with one , to marry his owne naturall and full sister , of the same father , and the same mother ( as Belle ambleth in amplification , and troteth alyinge pace with out all moderation ) but only to continue still with hir with whome he had married , and with whom he had consummat matrimony , notwithstandinge he had before his mariage committed fornication with hir naturall sister : So that S. Anthonius speaketh not any one worde of the mans owne naturall sister , but of his wife , and hir naturall sister . For proofe and perspicuitiee of this point , let vs alleadge the Docters whole sentence . It is founde ( saith he ) that Pope Martin the fifth did dispense with à certaine man who had contracted and consummated matrimony with a certaine naturall ssster of hir , with whom he had comitted fornication ; yet with great difficulty , and because the matter was secret , and the man not fit for Religion , or to remoue into any other contrie , and so scandal would haue followed of the diuorce if it had beene made . Let any that is desierous of truth , by this one place , take a scantlinge of Bells holie sinceritie . Because he found S. Antonius to speake of a dispensation granted to one after he had married , and consummate matrimony with hir , whose sister before his marriage he had knowen carnallie : and so a dispensation only in affinitie , contracted by vnlawfull copulation : ( for which the Minister had he bin consulted would rather haue laughed at him for his simple scrupulositie , then thought it needfull to sue for any such fauour or grace ) which did nothinge fitt his purpose ; and therfore meaninge to make it in spight of all honestie to serue his turne , he hath firste corrupted the sentence by false translation , sainge with his natural sister , in steede of these wordes with hir naturall sister , or the naturall sister of hir : and although euery one can not espie his cunninge conuayance , because he suppressed the other parte of the sentente followinge , yet is it apparant ynoughe to any Gramarian : for were the latin as he turneth it , then should it not be , cum quadam eius germana , but , cum quadam sua germana : But not only such as knowe latin , but euen those also that haue any skill in pewter , might haue espied the grosse vntruth , had he cited the whole sentence as it is in Antonius before alloadged : and therefore to healpe out a lye , he ventured vpon corruption , and chopt away all those wordes which might haue marred the market of this Geneua marchant . For had one married his owne naturall sister , as Bell not so confidently as impudently affirmeth : then should it not haue bin truly said , that he had committed fornication , but incest , a sinne distinct in nature , and far more odious in the sight of god : nether could the matter haue bin secret as Antonius saith it was , nor yet the seperation scandalous , but rather offensiue to haue suffered them to continue together in filthie pretensed matrimony . To conclude therfore he had not dispensation in respect of his owne naturall sister , but to remaine still in matrimony with that woman , whose naturall sister he had before mariage carnally knowen . Hauinge tolde so notorious a lie , and holpen it out with foule falsification , he could not containe him selfe but crie out in the seale of his soule Behoulde here gentle reader the excellencie of holie Poperie , and if thou desierest more of such melodie , thou mayest finde it in my booke of Mottues . But may not I with far more reason desier him to note the basenes of his ministerial iniquitie , that after such à shamefull prancke of lyinge and falsification , setteth such a braue face on the matter as though he were innocent and no way to be touched : And as for the melodie he speaketh of , to giue him his iust deserts I cannot deny but that not only his Motiues , but also his other bookes , be full of such harmonie , lyinge , and corruption , being the ordinary musick which this fidling minister scrapeth to those that daunce after his pipe . And wheras he calleth this a sufficient antipast for all english Iesuites and Iesuited popelinges ( such is the modestie of this refined ropelinge ) we willinglie graunt it , to be verie sufficient for all Catholikes , and his deuoted dependants : for vs , to take him for a whetstoue docter , and pollinge preacher : for them to discarde him , as being the shame , disgrace , and confusion of the new gospell , and a corrupt member of their congregation . II. PAg. 50. S. Austen ( quoth he ) proueth at lardge in sundrie places of his workes that voluntarie motions of concupiscence are sinne indeede , and trulie so called : In his first booke of Retractations he hath these wordes . That which in infantes is called originall sinne , when as yet they vse not free arbitrement of wil , is not absurdly called voluntarie , because beings contracted of the euil wil of the firste man , it is become in sorte hereditarie : It is not therefore false which I said , sinne is an euil so voluntarie , that it is no way sinne , if it be not voluntary . Whether Bell fathereth not a notable vntruth vpon S. Austen , when he citeth these wordes of his to proue that voluntarie motions of concupiscence be sinne indeede , and truly so called , I reporte me to the wordes by him alleadged : for no such thinge is in them to be found , nay either my braines are not in good tune , or els S. Austen proueth the cleane contrarie . It is a constant doctrine with that holie father ; that sinne is voluntarie otherwise no sinne , and for as much as some dout might be made of originall sinne , because it seemeth wholy inuoluntarie ; he affirmeth also that sinne to be voluntarie and so concludeth generally all sinne to be so : Marry a man of the ministers learninge , may quicklie ouerthrowe vs with our owne Doctors , if by that rare skill which he hath in lyinge , when they say one thinge , he can without all blushinge maintayne them to say the contrarie . Let the reader peruse the sentence and speake his minde freelie . III. PAg. 69. Disputinge againste the condigne meritts of workes he citeth this sentence of a Catholicke writer Iosephus Angles . Eodem etiam modo , &c. As other holie Doctors also consideringe after the same maner the natural valew only of good woorkes , and perceiuinge that it is exceedinge far distant , from the valew and iust estimation of eternal life , said wisely : That our workes are not meritorious nor worthie of eternall life , yet for the couenant and promise made vnto vs , the good workes of man , with the helpe of grace , are worthy of eternal life , and equall with it , which for all that , that promise of god which is frequent in scripture , set aside , were altogether vnworthie of so great a rewarde . In theese wordes although nothinge be contained hurtfull to Catholike doctrine : Yet Bell by his Achymistical arte of chaunginge truth in to falsehoode , can gather out matter sufficient against vs. But before I passe any farther , I muste note one thinge breiflie , and that is , whereas Ioseph is dedicatinge his bookes to the Pope , speaketh of kissinge his holines feete , this minister not only out of all season mencioneth it in this place , but is at it againe and againe , as some wise folke there be , which if they get a worde by the end , will hardlie let it goe , but like a bell still iangle the same tune . Doth not him selfe confesse that Iustinian the Emperour nine hundred yeeres agoe kissed the Pope Constantiue feete : and is it not well knowen , that Alexander the great , fell downe at the feete of laddas high Preiste of the Iewes : and S. Austen reporteth how the people in his time did the like before the feete of bishopps . all which considered ( to omitt what adoration is giuen to temporall princes ) I maruell that it should seeme so straung a thinge to one of Bells readinge and learninge , that a religious bishop should submit him selfe to kisse the Popes feete : Ynoughe of this : Let vs now see what he gathereth out of Iosephus wordes against vs. In the margent of his booke this wholesome note is painted . Loe this Frier graunteth that all the holie fathers are against the Papistes . It should haue bene long ynoughe before a man of ordinarie capacitie , could euer haue obserued any such point in Iosephus discourse . But take heede whilst yee liue , when such a turn-coate as he is cometh to tosse and turne ouer a sentence : for he can not only inferr , that which is true , but with as great facilitie gather that also which is false : Be it knowen to him , that he belieth Iosephus , for no such thinge as he noteth can be wroung , racked , or coniured out of his wordes : Let them be viewed and pondered by the discreete reader , and I leaue it to his iudgment whether he graunteth any such thinge , or no. The fathers saith Bell , out of the testimonie of Iosephus confesse that good workes accordinge to their naturall valew , be not meritorious of eternall life . What is this against vs ? Doe not all Catholikes graunt as much , when they acknowledge that they receiue all their efficacie of workinge from gods grace : which doctrine of ours he may learne out of the councell of Trent , where it is handled at lardge : False therfore it is that ether the fathers be against vs , or that Angles granteth any such thinge . IIII. PAg. 115. Our petye Pygmie will needes be wrastlinge with Hercules club ; that is , Bell bicker with Bellarmine , impar congressus Achilli ; The poore man might doe far better and vviser , to keepe his teeth to be agents for his bellie vvhich he loueth vvell , then to endanger them vpon so roughe a file . And vvhat a gods name is his quarell againste that learned prelate . Marry ( quoth he ) These are his expresse wordes : But in the new Testament because Christ had fulfilled the figures and the prophecies , althoug he many doe not vnder stād the sentences of the scriptures , yet doe they vnderstand the mysteries of our redemption , euen the common countrie fellowes and the verie women . Thus writeth our Iesuit , affirming that euen women and the verie rustickes of the countrie , doe vnderstand the scriptures , so far forth as pertaineth to the misteries of their redemption . Yf the minister doe no better keepe his handes from pickinge and stealinge , then he doth his tounge from euill speakinge , lyinge , and slaundringe , to vse the phrase of their cathechisme , he might far more justly be called in question , for the vnlavvfull vse of his fingers , then he did the seruinge man at Thirske about suspition of Seminary affaires : For I giue him to vnderstand ( though no great nevves ) that he belieth Bellarmin : He saith not that vvoemen and rustickes doe vnderstand the scriptures so far forth as pertaineth to the misteries of their redemption . Nay he saith the contrarie in the vvordes by him alleadged , Although many ( quoth he ) vnderstand not the sentences of the scriptures . In vvhich number , I thinke rustickes and vvomen must be contayned . Yf then they vnderstand not the sentences of the scriptures as Bellarmin affirmeth hovv doe they vnderstand the scriptures so far forth as pertaineth to the misteries of their redemption . Was there euer knovven a more gallant gospeller , that dareth thus to practise his godles occupation though all the tovvne looke on . Yea but Bellarmin saith that contrie fellovves and vvomen vnderstand , the misteries of our redemption : vvhat then ? is there no meanes to attaine that knovvledg , but but by readinge and vnderstandinge of the scriptures ? yf so , vvoe be to them that can not reade at all , no smale part of the christian vvorld . vvho knovveth not that ignorant people learne better the misteries of their redemption , by the instruction of their Pastors , dilligence of parents , and helpe of good cathechismes , then by fishinge for it by their ovvne labour , out of the profound sea of sacred scripture , vvhere they may sooner for lack of skill be drovvned in the depth of errors , then by them selues finde out the liuely vvaters of true doctrine ; vvould to god to much experience in these vnrulie times , taught vs not this to be too true a lesson , The lamentable storie of Hacket that quintissentiall Puritan and a great bible beater , may vvarne all to be wise vnto sobrietie as . S. Paul vvisheth ; and also vvhat ruine of soules , and daunger to common vveales , doth arise , by generally sufferinge , yea and animatinge all sortes of people , tag and rag to learne the misteries of their redemption out of the scripture , and to examin the doctrin forsooth of Fathers , & councells , by that rule & touchstone , as Iohn Caluin prescribeth . V. PAg. 130. Many Papistes ( quoth he ) are so blinded and besotted with vnsauorie traditions , and superstitious illusions , that they deeme it a greater sinne to eate fleash in Lent , then to commit adulterie , murder , or periurie . Seinge moste certaine it is that these fowle sinnes of adulterie , murder , and periurie , be forbidden by the law of god , no necessitie occurringe or circumstance what soeuer , giueinge any leaue to commit any one of these sinnes : and that the fast of Lent ordained only by a positiue law of the Apostles , from which many for age , sicknes , and other causes , may be iustly excused ; and this so well knowen , that no dout can be made thereof , what a creature is Bell , that vttereth so notable an vntruth , bringinge not so much as any colourable ground to support it , but his bare word , and the emptie blast of his owne mouth . Should I tell him that certaine reformed Protestants , otherwise called willet ) vnder the letters of E. O. gaue him but a litle item by the way , notinge a certaine palpable contradiction in his Surueye : to wit that he saith in one place , that the bishops of Rome , vntil the dayes of S. Austen , and long after , were very godlie men , and taught the same doctrine that S. Peter had done before them , and yet in an other place mainteineth , that Pope Siricius was seduced by Sathan , published wicked doctrine , and taught the flat doctrine of the diuells : and Pope Sozimus falsified the decrees of the Nicen councel : so to mainteine the vsurped primacie of the church of Rome . seing both these Popes liued in S. Augustins time . To deliuer him selfe from this disgracious shakell which much hindereth his goinge , he fetcheth many crosse capers , tumbleth like a pig in a poke , but he is so hampered , that the more he strugleth the more fast is he caught , the holes are so straight and him selfe so big that there is is no creepinge out , well may he thruste his head forth , as his brother Eaton the minister by Hounslowe , did vpon the pillerie in London , for teachinge his daughter a wrong lesson , but no possibility of escapinge appeereth . Many soueraigne solucions forsooth , and diuers plaisters of I-sayes , are applied to cure the wounde , but all in vaine , for it festereth more and more , without all hope of amendment . Bad tinkers stop one heale , ad make an other . Bell is so cuninge a worke man , that he hath both left the olde leakinge stil , and made diuers new . I touch this point now breiflie , better oportunitie hereafter will be offered further to examin this matter , when god willinge all his bucklers of defence , shall be beaten vpon his owne face . At this present I will giue the reader a short viewe , of the great dexteritie he hath in answeringe ; and the wonderfull facilitie in lyinge and the great pleasure he seemeth to take in that occupation , insistinge so much vpon that , and amplifienge it at lardg , as if he had either conscience in his soule or blood in his cheekes , he would neuer for shame once haue mentioned . I will cite all his wordes at full , that no iust cause of complaint be giuen : In his third chapter the title wherof is . Of the notorious lies of E. O. thus he declaimeth . Pope Siricius ( as Thomas Bell affirmeth ) was seduced by Sathan , published wicked doctrine , and Precisians , came daylie to a winter morning lecture , where after other preparatiue discourses , when the mot was giuen by the preacher , and the text of Multiplicamini proclaimed , candles were put out , and that they frequented this exercise , fare more dilligently then they obserued the Lenten fast : and brought nothinge to iustifie my relation , how would he take me vp for halting . Yea I am verily perswaded , that albeit , I should say that such a thinge hapned in a principall towne in Barkshire , addinge also that the minister vpon the breakinge forth of the matter fearinge persecution for the testimonie of a good conscience , fled a way towardes Oxford , and venturinge with his horse to take the water , because he had haste in his way , and could not expect a boate , was there drowned , that he would not make any great scruple notwithstandinge these particularities to giue me the lie . Let him then with far more reason quietly disgest it him selfe . His odious tearmes of blinded , and besotted , vnsauorie traditions , and superstitious illusions , must be pardoned : Some haue such a defect of nature , that they can not speake vnles thy stammer : and Sir Thomas such an imperfection of grace , that except he rayle and lie he can write nothinge . S. Hierom calleth the Lenton fast a tradition of the Apostles . though it pleaseth him to call it an vnsauorie tradition so litle doth it like him , and to say truth , the old tradition commandinge so longe abstinence from fleashe , can not but be to the ministers mouth sower and vnsauorie : and the new Geneua fashion that geueth leaue by the libertie of the gospell to eate fleash at all times , is far more sauorie , tothsome , and pleasant . VI. THus much out of the Downe fall : now for a packinge blowe one bout more and so an end . In this booke of his which he published the last yeare 1603 ( and coupled it together with his Goulden ballance ) the good man seemeth to be much netled , and the waters of his patience so troubled , and shaken , that they be not yet queit and cleere : for a certaine Catholike author ( in a booke intituled A Detection &c. written against Master Sutcliff , and Master taught the flat doctrine of the diuel : These are the expresse wordes of E. O. whom ( as it seemeth ) the diuel did euen then posesse when he vitered them . For not one of these wordes ( TAVGT THE FLAT DOCTRINE OF THE DIVEL ) can be found in my Suruey , in the place which E. O. hath quoted , but these wordes which of purpose he did omitt ( prohibited mariage as an vnlawful thinge ) This therefor is a notorius , and a most malicious lie , It is a lye in grame , and that a knocker ( to vse his owne wordes else where ) adorned with the name of the diuell , to giue the more grace vnto it ; And that worthelie , because the diuel is the Architect and thiefe worckman in that art and occupation . Here is a greueous complaint put vp against E. O. for that he hath slaundred the minister , and vttered a notorious and moste malicious lie , a lie in graine and a knocker , adorned with the name of the diuell , &c. and the lye consisteth in this point , because E. O. chardgeth Bell as though he should say that Siricius taught the flatt doctrine of the diuele , none of which wordes as he affirmeth can be found in his Surueye in the place which E. O. hath quoted : and this inturie he reputeth for a fault of no smale qualitie when he writeth that the deuile as it seemeth did euen then posesse him when he vttered them . A greuous crime doutles , that in his seeminge opinion deserued so suddaine and seuere a punishment , or els he presumeth much vpon the diueles friendship , when he is readie to conceiue that for a trifelinge iniurie offered to his ministership he tooke the matter so hotely , as to prosecute it in such terrible reuenging maner . But now nothwithstandinge all this bitter and fearfull exclamation , what if these wordes be found in his Surueye and in that verie place which E. O. hath noted vpon whom them doth the notorious and malicious lye fall , whose coate is died and marked with the lye in graine , whose credit doth the knockinge lye batter and beate , and whose tenement moste like to giue the diuele intertainment ? That the said Siricius was seduced by Sathan , and published wicked doctrine he denieth not : why I beseech him is there any such great difference betwixt these wordes which he graunteth and those other which he doth not graunt , that he should mount vp into such extrauagant tearmes , let them be indifferently pondered , and they expresse the verie same meaninge● for is it not trulie verified of him that he doth teach the flatt doctrine of the diuele , of whom it is confessed that , he was seduced by Sathan and published wicked doctrine . Put them into an equall ballance , and a dram of difference in sence and true construction , wil not be found , for Bell is no nere allied to the rineged minister of Baschall then Sathan is to the diuile . These are vaine shiftes , idle vagaries , & a cuninge wheelinge from the matter , cries out Sir Thomas : To the point , shew the foresaid wordes , or els E. O. remaineth cōuicted of notorious lyinge , and I in the back house ditch for takinge his parte : seeing he is so short and so cutted , to take away all cauilles , and to chamber the clapper of his runinge red rag . I tell him that for the wordes wherewith Bell is chardged , two places of his Surueye are quoted : to witt pag. 228. and 230. and in the first quotation of 228. be those wordes found which he admitteth , and in the next of 230. is that sentence registred which he denieth vtterlie euer to haue spoken . for reuellinge at Siricius for callinge , not holie wedlocke as he saith ( he must take an heare from his beard which had he done so often as he hath ouerreached , he had bin a balde minister longe since ) but the filthie yoakinge and pretensed mariage of Preistes the pollution of carnall concupiscence : he exclameth against him in this manner . I add hereunto that this is the flatt doctrine of the diuele , and S. Paul is my verie witnes herein . I report me now to his deuoted dependants whether his witts were at home , when he medled , with such hot and dangerous edge tooles , as haue pitifully hurt and scaled his owne fingers , or what discretion , shame , or modestie he had , to pursue his aduersarie with so full mouth and strong a crie of wordes in vvhich the diuele also had his part : so vainlie to vaunt of his sincere proceedinge , so desperatly to deny any of these vvordes taught the flatt doctrine of the diuele , to be in the place quoted : and confidently to chardge his aduerfarie vvith a notorious lye : vvhen he had more reason to haue commanded his tounge silence seeing it hath found out his ovvne confusion , neuer to haue preached of sinceritie , vvhen he plaide the cunny catchinge companion : nor euer to haue called an other in question for lyinge , him selfe in that very place not only venturinge vpon an vntruth , but also in that verie same thinge , which as a notorious lye he obiecteth to an other . As for S. Paul where he vvould haue his vvitnes , he may talke is pleasure and say vvhat he list , but he may sooner spend all his pensions in Sub-penas , then euer bringe that blessed Apostle to depose in his side for the lawfull mariage of vowed Preistes and religious persons . The testimonie of their owne corrupt conscience yea and of their cōcupiscence they may haue : the authoritie of any Apostle , or authenticall auncient writer , they are neuer able to produce . And thus much breiflie for a sample cutt of as it were from the mayne webbe intended . No difficultie had it beene to haue ranged more plentifully , after the same maner both in these and other his bookes . But my purpose was only at this time to giue a tast not to furnishe a formall bankett : these few passages , shall I hope for this present giue the gentle reader desierous of truth , sufficient content : being as it were the two messengers Chusy and Achimaas to bring newes of the ouerthrowe of this glorious Absalon , who hath as shamefully apostared from his vocation , and waged war against his mother the church , as euer did that graceles impe reuolte from his naturall alleigaunce , and tooke armes against his father the kinge : the mayne battayle heauenlie grace asistinge me shall with conuenient speede followe after . God that willeth not the death of a sinner , put into the hartes of all such Protestaunts as loue truth and detest falshoode : desier saluation with Christ and his Sanites , and tremble at eternall damnation with . the diuele and his angelles , carefully to seeke for the knowledg of the pure , auncient , and Aposto like faith , Zealously when it is found to keepe and imbrace it , and constantly to liue and dye in the profession of the same . B. C. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A15697-e140 Faire and soft for dashing : what will this man be in the fight , that is so hot and eager before he is yet entred the f●elde . S. Epiphanius haeres . 75. and S. Austen haeres . 53. Se S Hierō . contra Vigilantium . Ciril . 6. cōtra Iulian . Cedrenus in Heraclio . S. Alcoranus Mahumet . cap. 15. & 16. Matt. ●3 . v. s Enuche . Psalm . 130. v. 2. In the preface speciall , and pag. 35. and 36. To the Seminary . Preists in vvisbich castle , &c. Pag. 57. and 65. pag. 80. Psalm . 111. v. 9. In the speciall preface of his Motiues . In the epistles dedicatory of his Motiues and Suruey . 2. Reg. 15. v. 16. In his Counterblast pag. 45. pag 44. pag. 49. Ierem. 37. v. 18. pag. 45. Pag. 45. In his suruey to the christiā reader . Mat. 26 v. 73. Num. 25. 2. Reg. 15. v. 34. e● cap 17. v. 15. Mat. 24 v. 32. Sap. 8. v. 1. pag. 18. pag. 7 ● . Chap. 8 artic . 12. In the former place . In his Apologie of the Church of Englands . Mat. 7. v. s. In his sermon printed by Iohn Windet 1590. pag. 13. Suruey Pag. 516. Goulden Ballance pag. 31. Mat. 7. v 15. 2. Cor. 11. v. 14. 3. Reg. ●1 . v. 9. Rō . 16. v. 18. Motiues . 18. Iudg. 16. v. 30. 3. Part. tit . 1. cap. 11 prop● finem . Epist. 165. ad generosum . Mat. 23. v. 3. 3. part . tit . 1. cap. 11. ss . 1. Aug. lib. 1. Retract . cap. 13. pag. 13. Aug. Retract . lib. 1. cap. 15. pag. 16. In 2 lib. Sent. pag. 130. Loe the Frier granteth that al the holi● fathers are a gainst the Papists . Suruey pag. 487. Genebrardus in Chrō . Anni Christi 32. De verbis Apostoli Sermo 18. De verbo Dei lib. 3. cap. 2. tom . 1. Rom. 12. v. 5. Suruey pag. 193. Suruey pag. 228. & 230. Suruey pag. 488. Epist. ad Marcellum adversus Mont●num . But they are found . 1. Reg. ●8 . 
A30375	----	A letter to a lord upon his happy conversion from popery to the Protestant religion by G. Burnett ... Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715. 1688 Approx. 15 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A30375 Wing B5820 ESTC R36042 15597639 ocm 15597639 104013 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A30375) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 104013) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1587:14) A letter to a lord upon his happy conversion from popery to the Protestant religion by G. Burnett ... Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715. 4 p. s.n.], [S.l. : 1688. Caption title. Reproduction of original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestant converts -- England. Protestantism. 2003-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-10 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-12 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-12 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A LETTER to a LORD upon his happy Conversion from Popery to the Protestant Religion . By G. Burnett , D. D. Right Noble Lord , WHen I consider seriously these words of St. Paul ▪ Brethren , you see your calling , that not many noble , not many wise , according to the flesh , not many mighty are called : but hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise , and weak things to confound the mighty , and base things in the world , and things not accounted of , and things that are not , to bring to nought things that are ▪ When , I say , I consider of these words so often , I admire at that rare blessing of God , which he hath vouchsafed to you a Noble and mighty Man ; namely , that he should grace you with that true and incomparable Nobility , which is attained by true Faith in Christ Jesus , and a holy life . As much greater as this blessing is , so much the more holy and sincere ought your life to be , and so much the more upright are you to walk with your God ; less that your thorns ( that is , Riches , Pleasures , and Honour ) should choke the seed of the Gospel which is sown in you . For ▪ this I am sure of , that God hath begun some great work in you , which he will finish to the glory of his own name , and will bring to pass , that as heretofore you had care so to live a Noble-man amongst Noble-men , that you might observe the decorum , and maintain the dignity of Nobility : so hereafter that you may imploy your whole self in this , that you may defend and uphold the honour and dignity of the Protestant Religion ; and in this life upon the earth to resemble that holy and heavenly life which you shall lead in the world to come . Call to mind continually ( my Lord ) in all your words and deeds , that we are graced with this honour to be made the sons of God by Jesus Christ : for that meditation will by the help of the holy Ghost , work this care in us , that we never commit any thing unworthy of that holy name of Christ , by which we are called . And yet alas , such is our estate , as that if we endeavour to please Christ , we are sure to displease men , and must be content to contemn the vain-glory of the world , that we may enjoy heavenly and eternal glory with God ; for it is impossible ( as Christ saith ) for him to believe in God which seeks the honour and praise of men . I mean of the men of the world , which as the Kingly Prophet saith , are lighter and vainer than vanity itself . And therefore their judgment is little worth , and less to be esteemed : but rather the iudgment of God , who seeth not all our actions only , but even our most hidden thoughts and purposes . Which being so , were it not folly and madness to displease such a God , to please so fond a world ? It were a shameful thing , if a wife should endeavour to please other men , rather than her Husband . How much more then unworthy is it , if our souls should rather aim to please the vain world , than their most holy Spouse Christ Jesus ? If the only Son of God was content not only to be reviled , yea and scourged , but even to die upon the Cross as a cursed malefactor , and all for us : why should not we much more bear patiently the taunts and mocks , yea even the slanders of Gods enemies ? Let us therefore arm our selves as it were with a holy pride , and ( in a sort ) scorn and laugh at the mocks of the Roman Catholicks ; and putting upon us mercy and pity as the feeling members of Christ , let us bewail so great blindness in them , and let us intreat the Lord for them , to pull them out of that palpable darkness into his true and marvellous light , lest Satan bind them to himself in his everlasting Apprentiship ▪ and so being his bond-slaves , and hired sworn servants of his black-guard , do send them out to prosecute Jesus Christ in his members . Which when they have done all they can , and all that the Devil their Master can teach them , though the Devil himself should burst with malice , and they for anger grind their teeth ; yet shall it all tend to the magnifying of Gods glory which they labour to obscure , and to the furtherance of their salvation , whom they so disdained : yea , to the increase of their glory in a better world , whom in this world they thought worthy of nothing but disgrace : and surely ( my most honorable Lord ) he that is possessed with the certainty of this faith , will without doubt make open War with the corrupt affections of his own nature , and with all the world , yea even with the Devil himself ; and will not doubt but in time to overcome them all . Therefore let us humble our selves to our God and Father everlasting , that he would increase that faith in us , and bring forth in us those most blessed and sweet fruits of faith in our hearts and lives , which he useth to work in them whom he hath elected ; that so our faith may appear not a fained , but a true faith ; not a dead , but a living faith ; not a humane , but a divine work in us ; that so it may be to us an infallible pledg of our salvation to come . Let us labour to shew our selves the legitimate and undoubted children of God in seeking above all things , that his most holy Name may be sanctified in our selves and others ; and in imitating his admirable love and gentleness , which makes his Sun to shine on good and bad , Let us worship his heavenly Majesty in spirit and truth ; and let us yield up the temple of our hearts to Christ Jesus as an acceptable sacrifice unto him ; yea , let us shew our selves members of the heavenly High Priest Christ Jesus , in sacrificing to God our bodies , and in crucifying the flesh with the Affection and Lusts thereof ; that sin being dead , God may create in us a spiritual life , whereby Christ Jesus may live in us . Let us dye to sin , and dye to our selves , and to the world , that we may live blessedly to God and Christ Jesus ; yea let us acknowledg and shew by our lives that we were once dead , but now are raised to the life of grace , by the power of Christ Jesus . Let our conversation be heavenly , though we live on the earth ; let us begin that life here , which we hope to lead in heaven ; let the Image of God shine bright in us ; let us disgrace and wear out the old Image of Sin and Satan ▪ and labour to renew the Image of Christ Jesus , that all that see us may acknowledg Gods Image in us . Which holy Image of grace , as it is beautiful and glorious , in all Gods Saints , so in you ( my good Lord ) it shall be so much more glorious , in as much as you go before others in Birth , Nobility , Honour , and high Place . O what a pleasant sight is it to all true Christian men , yea to the Angels ; yea how acceptable to the Lord himself , to behold a man of your place and estate so far to forget the world and deny himself ; so deeply to consider the frailty of his own Nature , and the vanity of all temporal things , as to say with 〈…〉 a worm and no man ; and to cry out with David , Turn thy face to me , and have mercy upon me , for I am desolate and poor : O happy and true rich man , which hath attained to this spiritual and heavenly poverty , and can give a farewel to himself and the world , and all things that he hath for Christs sake ; and can freely renounce and forsake carnal reason , human learning , company , and counsel of Friends , wealths , honors , lordships , pleasures of all sorts , delight of the Court , high places and preferments , dignity , and offices ; yea , favor of princes ; yea , his own self ! How welcom shall he be to Christ , which can deny all those for Christs sake ? Such a one may go for a Fool in the World , but he shall be of the Almighty's counsel ; such a man knoweth that felicity consists not in any thing that this world can afford , and therefore in the midst of all his wealth and abundance , he crieth out to God as tho he had nothing , even out of the feeling of his heart , Give us this day our daily Bread. Such a man preferreth the rebuke of Christ , before the honour of the world and the afflictions of Christs Religion , before the pleasures of the world : and because he despised all things in respect of Christ and his righteousness , and is possessed and grounded with God's spirit , therefore he sings with true joy of heart with the kingly Prophet ; The Lord is my Shepherd , therefore I can want nothing , neither will I feel hunger , or any outward thing ; he feeds me in green pasture , and leads me forth beside the water of comfort . This man distrusts himself and all the creatures in the world , that he may trust and cleave only unto God ; neither aims he at any pleasure , any wisdom , any honour , any riches , any credit or estimation , but such as comes from God himself ; and therefore professeth with the same Prophet : I have none in Heaven but thee alone , and none in the earth do I desire but thee , my flesh consumeth with longing after thee , and thou Lord art my heritage and portion for ever . He that spake thus was a wealthy and mighty King , yet suffered he not the eyes of his mind to be blinded or dazled with the glittering glory of riches , pleasures , or honor , or ought else that a kingdom could give ; for he knew well that they all came of God , and were held under God , and must all be used to his glory , and that he that gave them hath far better things to give his children . And therefore that King and Prophet makes his heavenly proclamation before all his people , Blessed art thou , O Lord God our Father , for ever and ever : thine O Lord is greatness , and power , and glory , and victory : all that is in Heaven and Earth is thine , thine is the kingdom , Lord , and thou excellest as head over all : riches and honour come of thee , and thou art Lord of all : in thy hands is power , strength , and honour , and dignity , and Kingdoms are in thy disposition : therefore we give thee thanks , O God , and we extol thy great and glorious Name . But who am I , and what is my people , that we should promise such things to thee ? For we are Strangers and Sojourners as all our fathers were ; our days are like a shadow upon the earth , and here is no abiding . See how David cannot content himself in abasing himself , and extolling the LORD ; and in how many words his affections utter themselves . This was David's meditation , and let this be your Looking-glass ; in this Looking-glass look once a day , and pray daily , that God would still open your eyes to behold your own vileness , and his incomprehensible power and love to you , that with King David you may humble your self under the mighty hand of his Majesty , and acknowledge all power and glory to belong to God alone , that so you may be made partakers of those heavenly graces which God bestowed , not on the proud and lofty , but on the humble and 〈◊〉 . Remember that ordinance of the eternal God that saith ▪ Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom , nor the strong man in his strength ▪ or the rich man in his riches , but let him that glorieth glory in this , in that he understandeth and knoweth me , that I am the Lord which do mercy and justice on earth ; for these things please me , saith the Lord. Therefore ( my good Lord ) if you list to boast , boast not as the world doth , that you are rich , or that you are of noble birth , or that you are heir apparent of a rich Marquesdom , or that you have married so noble a woman ; leave this kind of boasting to them , who have their minds glewed to the World , and therefore have no better things to boast on ; whose portion being here in this life , they can look for nothing in heaven . But rather rejoyce you are entred into the kingdom of Grace ; glory in this , that the King of Kings hath had mercy on you , and hath drawn you out of the misty darkness of the errors of the Romish Religion , hath given you to feel his endless love and mercy in Christ , hath made you of a child of wrath , his own son ; of a servant to sin and the Devil , an heir of heaven ; and of a bondslave to Hell , a free Denison of the heavenly Jerusalem ; and glory in this , that even Christ Jesus himself is given you , and made your own , and with him all things else . So that as Paul saith , all are yours , whether the world , or life , or death , things present or things to come , all are yours in and by Christ , who is the only felicity of our souls : and therefore whosoever have him , have with him all things else . This is the true glory , and the sound boasting of Christianity ; for hereby is God's mercy extolled , and mans pride troddon under foot , by which a man trusting too much to himself , rebelleth against God ▪ This glorious boasting makes us humble even in our highest honours , and modest and meek in prosperity , patient and quiet in adversity ; in troubles strong and courageous , gentle towards all men , joyful in hope , fervent in prayer , full of the love of God , but empty of all love of our selves , or ought in the world ▪ yea , it makes us Christs true Beadsmen , and his sworn servants , and make us yield up our selves wholly to imitate and follow Christ , and to esteem all things else as frail and vain , yea dung and dross that we may win Christ. Right honourable and my good Lord , you see that I am so willingly employed in this service of writing to your Honour , and in conferring with you of heavenly matters , that I have forgot my self , or rather your Honor , in being so tedious , which in the beginning I purposed not . I am privy to my self of my own ignorance , and guilty of my own insufficiency , as being sitter to be a Scholar than a teacher ; and to hear and learn my self , rather than to teach others ; and therefore I crave pardon of your Honor : Farewel . The most reverend E. S. desireth in his heart he had occasion to testifie indeed , that true good will which in his soul he bears you : in the mean time he salutes you , and so doth the illustrious Prince , and all other the honourable Personages which are with me ; all which rejoyce for this good work of God in you , and in all kindness do kiss your hands ; and they do earnestly intreat the Lord for you , that he that hath begun so great a work in you ▪ would accomplish the same to the end ; and the richer you are in temporal Goods , in Lands , and Lordships , that he would make you so much the more poor in spirit ▪ that so your spiritual poverty may do that which your worldly riches and honors cannot ; namely , bring you at last to eternal and never-fading riches of the world to come : Amen . Your Honours most humble and obedient Servant , G. B. Printed in the Year 1688. 
A33886	----	Raree show, or, The true Protestant procession a new ballad to the tune of the Northumberland man. 1681 Approx. 5 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 2 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A33886 Wing R280B Wing C5226A_INCORRECT Wing C5226B_INCORRECT ESTC R29641 99895787 99895787 46603 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A33886) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 46603) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1438:15; 2357:23) Raree show, or, The true Protestant procession a new ballad to the tune of the Northumberland man. Colledge, Stephen, 1635?-1681, attributed name. 1 sheet ([2] p.) Printed for A.B., [London] : 1681. Sometimes attributed to Stephen Colledge. cf. NUC; Wing. Verse - "This is the cabal of some Protestant lords (had,". Item identified on UMI microfilm as C5226B (entry cancelled in Wing 2nd ed.). Reproduction of originals in: Harvard University Library; Folger Shakespeare Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Humor -- Early works to 1800. Popish Plot, 1678 -- Humor -- Early works to 1800. Political satire, English -- Early works to 1800. 2006-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-09 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2006-09 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Raree Show Or the true Protestant Procession . A new Ballad to the Tune of the Northumberland man. 1. THis is the Cabal of some Prot●stant Lords A forging the turne that not long since they had , Here W — ● sitteth and searcheth Records ▪ to find Flaws in good Statutes , & varnish the bad . 2. This is the Lord Tony that slyly sits here Who to sham and contrive has never deny'd And rather then the Good Cause shou'd fall through his fear He 'l let out Rebellion by broaching his side . 3. This is Popular Perkin that smirks and looks gay The women extols the Spark up to the sky , None danceth with so great a grace , as they say , Yet some body thinks that he capers too high . 4. Here flourishing E — the tongue o' th Gang VVith Rhetorical Artifice fancies fine things , First vainly composeth a taking Harangue then fosters a Villain in Libelling Kings . 5. Here 's Docter Informant that ne'r wou'd stick out To traffick in Oaths or tell a State-Lye , Observe how he firks all the Jesuits about , First blaws on a Beuk , and so Papists God b — y. 6. Here 's Wilmore that 's troubl'd with scruples & stings His Citizens conscience is nice and demure , A Traytor 's Indicted for treasonable things , But he tells you t is false , he 's a Protestant sure . 7. These are some sage Cytizens that you see there , VVho out of their Zeal all our rights to maintain And to keep out all slavery , have taken a care to put up in the streets two Posts and a Chain . 8. The seare some Apprentices that still do retain Some Tenets their Masters approve and allows , They come to direct a wise Monarch to Reign Instead of sweeping their shop and cleaning of shooes . 9. This is the Committee where greivance is scann'd Which Remonstrates the danger that threatens the State Good service is here by suspicion Trapan'd And Allegiance is reckon'd Malignancy streight . 10. Her 's the Synod of Saints that will sometimes refresh The failings of nature with means of their own . They 'l preach you the mortification of flesh With eyes up to Heaven and Breeches let down . 11. These are the Cabal of the Covenantiers That think they maintain the Religion the best By pulling down Churches and their Overseers And routing the Defender of Faith with the rest . 12. These are the Remains of the Levelling Rump That stink in the House and fresh Commons annoy , And least the right James shou'd be turn'd up for Trump They cry out , a Court Card will their gaming destroy . 13. That Lumber of Trumpery buzzing about Are silly Subscribers that come at first dash , To make up a large Petitioning rout Of Link-boys and all such true Protestant trash . 14. These there are the Hucksters that Treason retail , They 'l sell you a sheet with a penniworth in 't ; That 's Courantier Care that never will fail to scribble , whilst Langly dares Publish and Print . 15. That 's the Club of a Pack of ingenious friends that made Charles a Scotch Pedlar in the Rare show , And I hope that our Monarch to make them amends will give them a Yard of St. Johnstons or two , Printed for A. B. 1681. 
A17020	----	A treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie, and succession of the true church in all ages Abbot, George, 1562-1633. 1624 Approx. 137 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 64 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A17020 STC 39.3 ESTC S100501 24165166 ocm 24165166 27282 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A17020) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 27282) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1845:2) A treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie, and succession of the true church in all ages Abbot, George, 1562-1633. [8], 116 p. Printed by Humfrey Louunes, for Robert Milbourne, At London : 1624. Attributed to Abbot, Abp. of Canterbury, by STC (2nd ed.) and NUC pre-1956 imprints. Signatures: A-P⁴ Q². Marginal notes. Error in paging: p. 87 misnumbered 88. Reproduction of original in the Cambridge University Library. Includes bibliographical references. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Church -- History of doctrines. Protestantism -- Apologetic works. 2003-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-02 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-02 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TREATISE OF THE Perpetuall Visibilitie , AND Succession of the True CHVRCH . in all AGES . AT LONDON , Printed by HVM●REY LOVVNES ; for ROBERT MILBOVRNE . 1624. TO THE READER . KIng Salomon , the Mirror of wisdome , who digged deepest into the richest Mines of diuine and humane knowledge , exhorts others to search after that which himself had found in such abundance : and he sets an edge vpon our desires , by promising , If thou seekest after her as for siluer , and searchest for her as for hid treasure , then shalt thou finde the knowledge of God , &c. Of so pretious a Talent when wee haue found any parcell , wee ought not to hide it in a napkin , much lesse to bury it in the bowels of the earth , by concealment or suppression : for , Veritatem celare , est aurum sepelire ; To conceale the Truth , is to burie gold , and therby to depriue not only others , but our selues also , of the benefit and vse thereof . Wherefore Saint Austen sharply censureth such as would challenge a peculiar interest and propriety in this , which is the true common treasure of Gods Church , saying , Veritas nec mea , nec tua , nec illius est , sed omnium nostrum , quos ad eius communionem publicè vocas ; admonens nos , vt nolimus eam habere priuatam , ne priuemur ea : The truth is neither mine , nor thine , nor his , but all ours in common , whom thou ( O Lord ) callest publikely to the communion thereof ; dreadfully admonishing vs , not to desire to haue it priuate , lest we be depriued of it . Now , of all truth this day in controuersie , there is none more sought after by some , than the visibility of the true Church , which retained the purity of the Apostles doctrine , vnmixed with dregs of errour and superstition , especially in the gloomy and dark Ages before Luther . As for higher times , and neerer the Apostles , such was the clarity and splendour of the pure Church , that in a manner it obscured the Sun. But , in succeeding and degenerating times , after the number of the name of the Beast , 666 , it began much to be obscured and clouded with ignorance and superstition : and in the thousandth yeer , in which , Satan was let loose , and much more after , euen till the happy reformation in these later Ages , it was so eclipsed , especially in the Western Parts of the world , that some confidently affirm , it was quite extinct . The Woman , clothed with the Sun , hauing the Moon vnder her feet , was now fled into the Wildernesse , and had but a fewe Stars to discouer her . By the conduct and lustre wherof , yet many Wise-men follow'd her obscure track , and found her . Among whom , the most reuerend , religious , learned , and painfull Authour of this enfuing Treatise , concerning The Visibility and Succession of the true Church , deserueth to bee named in the first rank ; who hath more particularly and perspicuously trauelled in this Argument , than any in our English Tongue . It was the manner of the Heathen Race-runners , after they had finished their course , * to deliuer a Lamp or Taper to the next Runner . Semblably whereto , this Christian Antiquary shewes vnto thee , how the noble Worthies of the Christian world , and Fore-runners of our faith , after they had finished their course , deliuered the Lamp of their doctrine from one to another : as ( to omit other former-bearers of this Light ) Bertram , to Berengarius ; Berengarious , to Petrus Bruis ; Petrus Bruis , to Waldo ; Waldo , to Dulcinus ; Dulcinus , to Gandune and Marsilius ; they , to Wicklef ; Wicklef , to Hus and Ierome of Prague ; and their scholars , the Taborites , to Luther . This Treasure of Antiquitie falling into my hands , and finding it hard to come-by , I thought fit to publish it , and make it more common ; that so , all that loue the truth , might cleerly see in it the perfect Image of their Mother , the true Protestant Church , partly blubbered with tears , partly smeared with bloud , by the cruelty of the Man of sinne , and his Complices , in former Ages . About which dolefull Image , we may fitly write these words of the Prophet Micah , for a Motto : Reioyce not against me , O my enemy : when I fall , I shall rise : when I sit in darknes , the Lord shall be a Light vnto mee . Such a Light hee hath been Before , and In our daies , and Henceforth will bee , according to his promise ; til he shall dispell all darknes , and consume the Man of sin with the Spirit of his mouth , and destroy him with the brightnes of his Comming . Euen so come , Lord Iesu ; come quickly . A TREATISE OF the perpetuall Visibilitie and Succession of the true CHVRCH . WEE teach , that as from the beginning long before the Incarnation of Christ , God euer had his Church , yet sometimes more visible and glorious , and sometimes more contracted , and obscured : so since the appearance of our Sauiour , at all times infallibly and without exception , there haue been chosen children of God , who haue retained his faith , and calling vpon his name haue studied to expresse their knowledge in their life , by retyring themselues both from the loose conuersation of Libertines , and the profanation of Idolatrous persons . Neither euer was there any of our profession , which did teach or write the contrary . But wheras the Synagogue of Rome layes it downe for a fundamentall Rule , that this Church hath been and must bee in all ages , a visible and conspicuous Congregation at the least , consisting of an apparant Hierarchy , so that at all times a man may poynt it out , and may repaire thither , as to a matter eminent ; yea , and in a sort pompous too ; or to say as Stapleton speaketh when he doth most extenuate it , a It is euermore visible in respect of her Gouernours and Sheepheards , but most of all for the Pope , or cheife Pastor thereof . To which Pope , b Bellarmine assigneth that he cannot erre in iudgment , and to the people and Cleargie of Rome ( where this sensible Church must principally be ) that they cannot erre with a personall errour ; so that all altogether erre ; we therein doe dissent from them , and maintaine , that although when the godly are most driuen to extremities by Heresies or persecutions , they bee visible each to other , and acquainted with some other brethren , who are in like case with themselues , yet they are not so apparant to other men , as that at all times they know where to find Assemblies , and Congregations of them . But that the Bishop of Rome , and his Pontificall Clergie , should haue the face of the Church tyed , and inseperably ioyned vnto them , wee can in no sort yeeld , but doe disclaime it as a flattering tale , suggested to that Bishop by such parasites as are about him , and from time to time doe depend vpon him . And that it may bee seene what reason we haue of this our assertion , wee first shew , that the estate of the faithfull was frequently so , before the comming of Christ. For when it lay as hid in some fewe persons , within the single Families of the old Patriarks , before and after the Floud , what great boast could there bee made of it ? Nay , when the Commonwealth of the lewes was much setled , into what straight was it brought , when Dauid complained , c Helpe Lord , for there is not one godly man left : for the faithfull are fayled from among the children of men ? This being spoken , as it is most probable , in the dayes of Saul , aster the dayes of Samuel , and the d slaughter of the Priests , how was it euen in Iudah and Ierusalem , when Esay cried out , that e the whole head is sicke , and the whole heart is heauy , from the sole of the foot vnto the head , there is nothing whole therin ? The estate of the Church being then most miserable , and all depraued , not onely in manners , but in Religion , Idolatry being plentifull , as is manifest by the wordes in the same vision , f For they shall be● confounded for the Okes which you haue desired , and yee shall bee ashamed for the G●rdens you haue chosen : which intendeth the trees and pleasant places where they vsed their superstitions . Call to mind the dayes of Ieremie , when hee sayd , g Runne to and fro by the streetes of Ierusalem , and behold now , and know , and inquire in the open places thereof , if yee can finde a man , or if there bee any that executeth Iudgement , and seeketh the Truth , and I will spare it . And those of Ezech●l , testifying in this sort : h I sought for a man among them that should make vp the hedge , and stand in the gap before mee for the land , that I should not destroy it , but I found none . These things were spoken of Iudah and Ierusalem , where alone at that time was that Church which was ; the Israelites for their grieuous sins , being long before caried away into captiuitie . You may adde to this , if you will , the complaint of Micah , i Woe is mee for I am as the Summer gatherings , and as the Grapes of the vintage : there is no cluster to eate : my soule desireth the first ripe fruites . The good man is perished out of the earth , and there is none righteous among men : they all lie in wait for blood : euery man hunteth his brother with a net . If the Priests & people had not almost generally gone astray , and the whole face of the visible Church had not seemed to bee defaced , would these Prophets thus haue particularized , that one godly man was not left , and that one was not to bee found , who had not declined from truth ? Wee doubt not but in those times the Lord had many faithfull ones in secret , as hee had seuen thousand in Israel when k Elias liued , of whom neither the enemies of the trueth , nor scant that Prophet , did take any notice . l The marke in the forehead is sometime knowne to few , but onely to him that imprinted it there ; yet this is a good holde for the Elect , m The Lord knoweth who are his . But vpon what might those , who were Gods secret chosen outwardly build , when diuers times the Princes and people had corrupted their wayes , and the Temple it selfe was polluted , and made a sinke of Idolatrie ? For wee finde that things stood vpon those termes in the dayes of Manasse , when in the House of the Lord , euen that house , whereof the Lord had said , n In Ierusalem will I put my Name , hee built prophane altars : and in the two Courts of the House of the Lord hee built Altars for all the hoste of Heauen . Iudge where in those dayes was the glorie of the visible Church , or where it was a prettie while before that , when the Priest o Vriah was as ready to set vp in the Temple an Altar after the fashion of that which was in Damascus , as the King Ahaz was ready to commaund it . And then the Prince and Priests conspiring , there was scant any kinde of grosse Idolatry , which was not plentifully committed , Ahaz himselfe making his sonne to p goe through the fire after the abominations of the Heathen . And least it should bee thought , that the people at least , did amend somewhat which was amisse , in the very next chapter it is witnessed in generall , q Yet Iudah kept not the Commaundements of the Lord their God , but walked according to the fashion of Israel , which they vsed . And by most probabilitie , this outrage vnder r Ahaz was the time , against which Esay so inueighed in the Vision before remembred . These things are so plaine , that the greatest pillars of the Papacie cannot deny them ; and therefore they are forced to another shift , as the Rhemists when they say , That there is a great difference betweene the Christian Church , and the Iewes , ours resting vpon better promises then theirs ; which is a very poore euasion , in as much as euery Diuine may know , that there be as large and many promises , that the Church of the Iewes should last vntill Christes appearance in the flesh , as there bee that the Congregation of Gods Saints shall continue among the Gentiles vntill the day of Iudgement . And ●auing onely for the time of the Babylonish captiuitie , there was one set externall place of Gods eminent seruice , that is , the Temple at Ierusalem , supported with such words , t This is my rest for euer , heere will I dwell , 〈◊〉 and u In Ierusalem shall my name 〈◊〉 euer : the like whereof through●● all the continuance of the New Testament , is not warrantable o●● of the Word for any one place wh●●●euer . Now it cannot bee so much as superficially maintained out of the Scripture , that Rome it selfe hath any such promise , but rather out of the Reuelation of St. Iohn , there are many substantiall matters which make to the contrary . But because by the strong shot of Trueth they bee beaten from the Bulwarke of the Iewish Synagogue , and flye to the next hold of the later Testament ; let vs follow them thither . VVhen our Sauiour Christ was borne , and for the most part afterward , till he was baptized , where shall we conceiue was the visible Church ? The Scribes and Pharisees possessed all the shew , and they were no better then a blinde leaders of the blinde . The Priesthood was long before and after bought and sold ; and in Christs owne time it is euident out of the Scripture , that the highest spirituall dignitie going b by yeares , Annas and Caiphas , and other vnworthy men of that rabble did enioy it . Vpon the birth of Iesus , they were not glad , who should haue most reioyced in it : but all c Ierufalem was troubled at it . And how they persisted afterward till Christ did manifest himselfe fully , may bee guessed by diuers circumstances , which the Euangelists do mention after his birth . But when hee came first into the world , of whom doe we find speech made , but of some Shepheards in the field , of Simeon an old man , of Anna a most aged woman , both ready to goe into their graues , of Ioseph and Marie , Zacharias and Elizabeth , and very few others ? and of these some might bee soone dead , others might liue out of the way at Bethlehem , or Nazareth , or in Aegypt , and the Shepheards were in the fieldes about their Trades : but where there was the appearance of a visible Congregation can hardly bee imagined . When our Sauiour had selected out his Apostles , they then were termed by the name of a Flocke ; but yet by their Master they were called but a d little flocke , where the Rhemists do confesse , that in the beginning it was little indeed . At the death of Christ , when his body hanged on the crosse for our sakes , and his Disciples were all e fled , no man daring to shew himselfe . f Mary and Iohn , and a fewe women were all the faithfull that now appeared vpon earth : and afterward while the Apostles & their followers walked very priuately , or were assembled g in a chamber , the Priestes , and Scribes , and Pharisees were they who ruffled it in the streetes , and bore the sway in the Temple ; so that if a weak body had enquired for the Church , he might rather haue been directed to them , who had the Law , and the Altars , and all sacred things in their custody , then to any other . When Steuen had been stoned , and for feare of the persecution which was at Ierusalem , the Disciples were all scattered ; besides the Apostles , it may well be presumed , that for a time they which remained in the citie where Steuen had lost his life , did not walke very openly . Truth it is , that after these things the Church was better setled , and the truth was more spread ; but yet neuer was there any such priuiledge bestowed vpon it , but that in the dayes of persecution , or some grieuous apostacy , the faithfull might bee brought to a small visibilitie . Our Sauiours wordes intend so much , when alluding to the time of his second appearance , to iudge the quicke and the dead , he asketh , i Neuerthelesse , when the Sonne of man commeth , shall he find faith on earth ? as meaning , that very little should then bee found , in comparison of the Floodes and Ocean of iniquitie which euery where should abound . But God , to the end that he might not haue vs ignorant but warned before hand into what straights the Church should bee brought , informeth vs by Saint k Paul , that the Lord shall not come , except there first bee an apostacie , or reuolt , or falling away , wherein Antichrist with great pride and disdaine should shew himselfe . This is solemnly spoken of by the Apostle , and by all both old and new , intreating of it , is obserued to some matter of great note , that is to say , some maine declining from somwhat . Many of our Papists fearing to touch this sore , which can in no case turne them to good , would haue that interpreted , to note nothing else but the slipping of diuers regions & countries from their subiection to the Romane Empire . But Gregory Martin , and the other Rhemistes being ouercome with the euidence of truth , are heere a little more honest then ordinary , and speake to other purpose . Indeed they cannot tell how it will be taken at other Papists hands , that contrary to the custome of their fellowes , in a matter of such moment , they should giue way vnto vs ; and therefore they doe vse these words in vvay of excuse , ● Be it spoken vnder the correction of Gods Church , and all learned Catholiques . But to the poynt concerning the Apostacie , they deliuer this : It is very like , that this great defection and reuolt shall not bee onely from the Romane Empire , but especially from the Romane Church , and withall from most poynts of Christian Religion , ( in the Margent it is , and from most Articles of the Catholique Faith. ) Heere they would haue vs take the Romish beleefe for the Christian Religion , and Catholique faith : but that deserueth a long pause : we rather obserue out of them , that this reuolt is in matter of faith , and not onely from the Empire ; then which Glosse , nothing can be truer . Well then , if there must bee so egregious an Apostacie , it will follow , that Antichrist so domineering , as by the Apostle he is described , will not bee negligent so to represse the publike seruice of God , that it shall not carry any liuely head , or countenance , where hee hath to doe . So that certainely our Rhemistes yeelding to this Exposition , doe in substance confesse so much , as that the apparancy of Gods Congregation , in the time of the great defection , must bee mightily ecclipsed . Now the Lord , to the end hee might establish his faithfull , and arme them to expect this paucitie of beleeuers , and inconspicuousnes of his Church , and yet not be discouraged for that which should bee past , present , or to come . And againe , that there might bee no doubt in a matter of this moment , letteth vs further know , that the m woman fled into the wildernesse , where shee hath a place prepared of God. It is not doubted of betweene the Romanists and vs , but this Woman doeth represent the Church , concerning whom , being in the wildernesse , it doth manifestly follow , that for the time of her abode there , which the Almightie had decreed , she should not be discerned ; that is , by her enemies , who did & would chase her : notwithstanding , it is not to be doubted , but shee knew where her selfe was . If the Romanist therefore , and persecuting aduersary , did not euer see the Professors of the Gospell , it was no wonder : the woman was to remaine in the Wildernesse a part , and hidde from them . The euidence of which matter is such , that as n Master Fox obserueth , for feare of diuers things in the Reuelation of Saint Iohn , ( whereof this may worthily be one scant any Popish Writer for many yeares together , durst aduenture to comment any thing vpon the Apocalyps , vntill our Rhemistes being desirous to shame the Pope , and themselues , with all who are wise , and adventured to set pen to paper . Hauing then a purpose to set forth and corrupt the New Testament , partly by their Translation , but most of all by their Annotations , they could not choose but say somewhat of the Reuelation , although they professe , that it is as o sparingly as may be , and as briefly ; which is not for that the Volume of the Rhemish Testament groweth great , as they would colour it , but for feare least they should too much lay open their owne weakenesse , which while that Booke is in the Bible , will neuer bee concealed . Howsoeuer therefore , through their Volume , in many maine matters , they bee very silent where they should most speake , as of the Question of imputed righteousnesse , where the p Apostle doeth most handle it , ( a sore argument of their owne conscience distrusting their cause , and euen sinking vnder the waight of that chapter ) yet here God ouer-ruling them , to say the truth , as hee did q Caiaphas , they interpret the woman to be the r Church , flying from the great persecution , which shall be in the time of Antichrist . Indeed , to keepe peace with their Lord and Mastes the Pope , they will not haue this flight to bee but in the very ending of the world ; and so they would fetch it with a backe Racket , that the woman should continue so in secret , but three yeares and a halfe , which ( to keepe all vpright ) they assigne to be the time of Antichrists raigne , and then the Iudgement must come ; which is a most fond evasion , seeing by that meanes men liuing at the appearance of Antichrist , should be able precisely to tell when the day should be , to wit , three yeares and a halfe after Antichrists entring . f But of that day and houre knoweth no man , no not the Angells which are in Heauen , neither the Sonne himselfe , saue the Father onely . It can neuer be made good , that the t time , times , and halfe a time , the two and fortie moneths , and the thousand , two hundred and sixtie dayes , are so literally to bee taken , as that they should containe exactly three ordinary yeares and a halfe . Your Romane Bishop in his declination , hath already been in the world much longer , and he is the greatest Antichrist that euer yet was manifested among men , and on whom many things in the Scripture signified , touching Antichrist , doe directly and vnauoydably light . Well , this reuolt taking place , and the woman , the Church being in the wildernesse , it is not to be doubted , but here and there be diuers , which serue God aright , the very gates u of Hell not being able to preuaile against them . And as these in generall wheresoeuer dispersed , doe make vp the vniuersall militant Church : so where any few of them , euen in the smallest number , are assembled together , they may be said to be a particular Congregation , or Church . Where three are , saith w Tertullian , there is a Church , although they bee Lay persons . It is likely , that he alludeth to that saying of our Sauiour , x Where two or three are gathered together in my Name , there am I in the middest of them . He is with them as with members of his Church , to guide them and heare them , to blesse them , and preserue them . And that such little assemblies are not vnworthy the name of the Church , is plaine by S. Pauls words to Philemon , where he sendeth greeting , not only to Philemon , and Appias , and Archippus , but a to the Church in Philemons house : for so the Rhemistes themselues translate it . In dangerous and Apostatating times , such petty assemblies doe make vp the generall , and they belong vnto the same mysticall body , although they not onely be not knowne to their persecutors , but many of them haue no acquaintance with other . They haue the same Head , the same Faith , the same Charitie , the same Spirit , the same Holy Ghost is giuen to all Saints , ioyned one to the other in loue , whether they know each other corporally , or doe not knowe them , saith b Saint Austen . The want then of Acquaintance each with other , may keepe the godly asunder , as well as the rage of their persecutors ; both which are to be found in the case of Elias . But directly to follow further this Argument of the Ecclipse of the Churches glorie , may it not bee thought to be brought to a low ebbe , when it is said of the second Beast , That c he causeth all both small and great , rich and poore , free and bond , that he should giue them a marke in the right hand , or in their foreheads , and that no man might buy or sell , saue hee that had the marke , or the name of the Beast , or the number of his name . And what else is signified , when so d many are mentioned to haue commerce with the Whore of Babylon ; yea , e all Nations are reported to haue drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication . The ancient Fathers were not ignorant , that such times these might bee , when they so oft compared the Church to the Moone , as Saint f Ambrose . The Moone it selfe , whereby in the Oracles of the Prophets , the countenance of the Church is figured ; when at the first rising againe , shee is renewed into the ages of the Moneth , she is hidden by the darknesse of the night , and by little and little filling her hornes , or right ouer against the Sunne ending them , doth shine with the light of cleare brightnes . g S. Austen in one place doth for diuers respects liken the church vnto the moone , and expoundeth the moone to signifie it . h In another place he hath the Sun is Christ , the Moon the Church ; which as one the one side it doth intimate vnto vs , that the Moone hath no light but from the Sun ; and the Church no light nor beauty , but from God : so on the other side it doth most liuely put vs in mind , that as the Moon continueth at the same stay , but increaseth and decreaseth , waxeth and waneth , is ecclipsed by the interposition of the earth between her selfe and the Sunne , and somtimes in the change cannot be seene , although it is neuer to be doubted but there is a Moon : so the church of Christ , whilest this troublesome world doth last , is now glorious , then shadowed ; in one age in beauty , in an other age kept vnder ; vnder some Princes in peace , vnder others in persecution ; yea , sometimes so pressed with the extremity of the malicious , as that she is glad to remaine retyred into secret places , & not to appeare openly to the malignant , albeit shee neuer is nor can be extinguished , but hath a continuall being . Vnto which it may bee added , that since faith doth much consist of i things which are not seene ; and we beleeue the holy Catholike church as an Article of our faith , it may follow , that it need not euer be eminently visible , and apparantly sensible vnto vs. For the better exemplification of this verity , it may be remembred what hauock was made by the Heathen Romane Emperors , and their deputies , against the flock of Christ , in the ten first persecutions : that in the Roman dominion , there was scant any to be heard of , who professed Christianity , but he was soone cut off by the sword , or otherwise . Did they in those times suffer any potent visibilitie of true Professors , or whē they once knew where they were , did they not forthwith labour to extirpate them ? But in the dayes of Constantius , when the Arrian Heresie had once gotten the head , where in the world did there appeare any sencible Congregation , maintaining the Orthodox beliefe ? Hieroms testimony of those dayes was , k The whole world did sigh , and wondred that it selfe was Arrian . The words are but few , but they are to the purpose . So said Saint Gregorius Presbyter , writing the life of Gregory Nazianzen , The Sect of the Arrians had almost possessed all the coasts of the world , the power and impietie of the Emperour ministring vnto it . The words of Constantius himselfe in L Theodoret , do giue testimony vnto this . Neither doth Liberius the Roman Bishop say ought to the contrary . The speeches of the Arrian Emperour against him and Athanasius are these ; The whole world doth thinke that this is well . The whole world hath giuen sentence of his impietie . Thou alone doest embrace the friendship of that wicked man. And a little before that : Doeth so great a part of the world reside in thee Liberius , that thou alone doest dare to come in ayd to that wicked man , and disturbe the peace of the vniuersall world ? Whereunto Liberius did not take exception , saying , that the visible Church stood for him , and Athanasius , but rather giueth another reason , to make good his being alone ; Be it that I am alone ; notwithstanding for that the cause of the faith is not the worse : for a great while ago●e , there were three onely found , who would resist the Kings commandement . Heere the Church for any external shew , was low brought : for if any body held it vp , it was Athanasius , who then played least in sight , and durst not appeare . For this Liberius , who did for a time second him , did afterward shrinke . He went at first into banishment in defence of the truth : but after that , he was solicited , and laid at by Fontunatianus , that he relented and condiscended to subscribe to the Arrian heresie , as m Hierom witnesseth , who liued in that age , and was long conuersant in Rome , and therefore could better report what was the issue of Liberius his constancie , then some others who doe relate it otherwise . What can be said for him , Bellarmine hath : but yet inforced by n the euident testimony of Athanasius , Hillary , and Hierome , he confesseth so much as I haue here set down ; but couer it he would , that he only consented to the externall act of subscribing , but remained in heart Othodox . Why should it then bee a maruell , if in processe of time , Antichrist growing to greater strength , the Church should bee in couert ? It is no more then often fell out vnder the Iewish Synagogue , & hath bin exemplified to haue been since among the Christians , and was so euidently foretold before . In so much that by the example of the o woman , it can not bee the true Church , vnlesse it should be hidden in the wildernesse . Which while our Popish teachers deny to agree to their Romish Church , but professe that it hath euer been in sight , they themselues doe by a consequent proclaime , that they are not the pure and vndefiled flying woman , but another painted harlot and strumpet . The true Church is for a time out of sight in the wildernes ; but so say they , was their Church neuer : and therefore will they , nill they , their Church is not the true Church . And here , to the end that the slaunderous calumniation of our aduersaries may the more be manifested to all those , who wil not wilfully close their eyes against truth , I will a little shew the vanity , & yet maliciousnes of their obiection , when they say there was neuer any of our faith before the daies of p Luther , who in the yeare 1517 , began for his part to display the kingdome of Antichrist . Where , I pray the Reader to consider , that the most part of those whom I shall cite , are Popish Writers , and no way partially affected towards vs. We say then , that Martine Luther was not the first brocher of those points which he taught again't papistry ; but as he did originally deduce them from the Scriptures , & out of the works of the ancient Fathers ; so he did derine them also hereditarily from other , who immediatly before him had taught the same doctrine , & left it both in books , & the hearts of men recommended vnto him ; as principal parties herein I name Iohn Hus , & Hierome of Prage , and all such as were their schollers , in or about Bohemia ; who before Luthers time oppugned the beliefe of the church of Rome , & their profession was not extinguished vntill his dayes , howsoeuer it before had bin mainly assaulted . If we could learne this no where els , yet q Fr. Guicciardine , an Italian , & Florentin Historiographer , would informe vs of it , who writing of the yeare 1520 , saith plainly , that Luther did set abroad the Heresies ( as he tearmeth them ) of the Bohemians ; and hee nameth there Hus and Hierome as former diuulgers of the same : and r Petrus Messias a Spaniard therein agreeth with him , who mentioning the opinions of Hus and the Bohemians , saith , they were the seed of those errours , which were afterward in Germany , alluding to the doctrine of Luther . There is no man whose testimony in this behalfe may be of more worth then Ioh. Cochleus ; First , because he wrote a large story of purpose concerning the Hussites , & therfore by his long search , reading , and writing , in that argument may be persumed to know as much as any . Secondly , because it may be well imagined , that he would fain nothing to do Luther good , in as much as he also wrote a volume purposely against that worthy seruant of God , intending to rip vp his whole life from yeare to yeare , and to censure all his works ; yet this enemy of his , in the Story of the Hussites , doth plentifully satisfie vs about the matter now in question . One where he telleth vs , that Hus did slay soules for an hundred yeares together ; neither yet doth he cease to slay them by the second death . Within an hundred yeares after him came in Luther , according as the said Iohn Hus did a prophecie not long before his death . And when it is added , that yet he doth not cease to slay ; it is manifest , that his Doctrine remained till the dayes of Cochleus . b In another place he relateth , that Luther did stirre vp seditions in Germanie , by the Books of the Hussites . Afterward he calleth those , who were in Germany in his time , New c Hussites . And againe , Hus did so rent the vnitie of the Church , that vnto this day there remaineth a pitifull diuision in Bohemia . He proceedeth in the same matter elsewhere , saying , That the people of Germanie are now by Luther partakers of the Heresies of Hus , and Hierome . One sort of the followers of this Iohn Hus , did call themselues Thaborites ; and these were they , who most dissented of all from the Doctrine of Rome : Of these he speaketh thus : e Vnto this day remaineth the Sect of the Thaborites , in many places of Bohemia , and Morauia , vnder the name of Picards and Waldenses . Lastly , the same f Cochleus , in the yeare 1534. doth wish that hee may see the remainders or leauings of the Hussites to returne to the Church , and the Germanes to cast out all new Sectes . VVhat can bee more euident , then that the Doctrine of Iohn Hus was sensibly and apparantly continued somewhere , euen till the dayes of Martin Luther ? Vnto which may bee added , that whereas Luther began to shew himselfe but in the yeare 1517 , that very yeere , was g ended the Councell of Laterane held at Rome , and finished by Pope Leo the tenth . And there consultation was had of reforming the manners of the Church , and of recalling the Bohemians to the vnity of the Church of Rome . And as these Testimonies doe conuince , that the Christian Confession of Hus was not extinguished at the comming of Martin Luther : so may there be good reason assigned , why it did so long continue , in as much as it was imbraced by many , and earnestly maintained euen vnto the death . When Hus began first to preach the people which vsed h handy craftes did with great desire heare his sermons , & did read the scriptures , being turned by him into their mother tongue , so that they could dispute with the Priestes ; which the very women were able to doe ; m yea , and one woman did make a Booke . Not long after three of the schollers of this Preacher did affirme , that the Pope thē liuing was Antichrist ; who had proclaimed a Croisado against a Christian King ; that was Ladislaus , King of Naples , then infesting the lands of the Church of Rome . These three persons were martyred for this speech , and tooke their death patiently . In small processe of time , this Doctrine so multiplied , that as n Onuphrius hath , the Councell of Constance was called principally for two things ; the one was against the Hussites , the other to take away the Schisme between the Popes . These of liklihood grew great , that now a generall Councell was called against them . Neither did the people only agree in faith with Iohn Hus , but the Nobles of Bohemia stood apparantly for him ; in so much that they sent two o seuerall and solemne supplications to the Councell of Constance in his behalfe . And when these their request were neglected , and Iohn Hus , and Hierom of Prage ( contrary to the p Emperors safe conduct giuen to the former of them ) were burnt , the Nobles of Bohemia did mightily murmure against the Fathers of the Councell ; in so much that Sigismund the Emperour , to giue them satisfaction on his behalfe , did write vnto them , excusing himselfe touching the death of these men , and laying the fault vpon the Councell . But this gaue not contentment vnto the Bohemians , now robbed of their principall Pastor , but being mooued at the perfidiousnesse of those at Constance , they assembled themselues together , to the number of thirtie thousand ; and in the fields vpon three hundred Tables erected for that purpose , they receiued the Eucharist in both kindes . Afterward , they rushing into the Churches and Monasteries , did breake downe the Images there . It was not long after , but that vnder q Iohannes Zisca , a Noble and victorious Warriour , these Hussites grew to bee of Souldiers fortie thousand in one armie , who got into their hands the Castle of Prage , the chiefe Citie of Bohemia . Then not long after did Pope Martin the fift publish a Croysado against these , whom hee called Heretiques , promising remission of their sinnes to such as could destroy them . Notwithstanding , these hated persons did still prosper , getting many Victories vnder Procopius , and other Captaines , but especially vnder Zisca , who was of that dexteritie , and felicitie in his Warres , as that r Cochleus almost amazed at his strange successe , sayeth , That scant any Historie of the Greekes , or Hebrewes , or Latines doeth mention such a Generall as Zisca was . Hee built a new Citie , as a refuge for his men , and called it Thabor , whereof diuers embracing the Doctrine of Hus , were afterward called Thaborites . A s second time did Pope Martine proclaime a Croysado against them , graunting remission of sinnes to all who did either fight , or contribute money against them . Vpon which , there were at one time t fortie thousand Germane Horse men gathered to destroy them : but such was the terror of their name , that vpon the approaching to them , the Horsemen of their owne accord turned their backes and fled . The Popish Authour saith , that there was in this some secret Iudgement of God , but hee thinketh the cause of their ill successe , was , that they had Bishops and Priests to their Leaders and Captaines . By this time came on the Councell of Basil , which as u Onuphrius saith , was held against the Hussites . This sheweth that there were many , which may also appeare , in that the Fathers at Basil , did by an Indulgence graunt to the Bohemians this dispensation , That contrary to the Act of the Councell of x Constance , they might receiue the Eucharist both in Bread and Wine . y Genebrard , who was euer a true seruant to the Pope , confesseth so much : but addeth withall , that the Cup was permitted vnto them , because that alwaies before had beene their custome so to communicate : yet saith he , all was on that condition , That they should not finde fault with the contrary vse , nor seuer themselues from the Catholique Church in other Rites and Doctrines . y Cochleus nameth no such condition . Nay , to shew that simply and directly it was yeelded vnto them , hee reporteth , that the Legates of the Councell of Basil , did thus expound that which was concluded in the Bohemians behalfe . The z Councell doeth permit the Eucharist vnder both kindes ; not tollerating it onely as a thing euill , as to the Iewes was permitted a Bill of Diuorce ; but so , that by the authoritie of Christ and his Church , it is lawfull and profitable to the worthy Receiuers . Where is it likely , that vnlesse the Bohemians now after Husses death had beene a strong partie , the Antichristian rabble would haue yeelded to their importunitie , so directly against the Canon of the next precedent Councell ? Indeed the a Emperour Sigismund did afterward take a course to lessen their number , when he sent many of them into Hungaria against the Turkes , that there they might either conquering winne to him victories , or being conquered themselues , so be destroied and perish . He who list to see more concerning the multitude of these Professors , let him but looke on diuers places in the workes of Aeneas Syluius , who was afterward Pope , by the name of Pius the second , and hee shall finde him reporting of his owne knowledge , as trauailing himselfe into Bohemia , that they were many , and very earnest also in their Religion . If heere it should bee replyed , that these perhaps were base people , and of the vulgar , who thus followed Iohn Hus ; but men of learning and knowledge , or persons of authoritie , they had none to ioyne with them ; the course of the Story will easily cleare the same , and shew that they had both learned Pastors , and great Magistrates , who beleeued as they beleeued , and stood wholly with them . Of what literature Hus himselfe was , is euident by his workes yet remaining , and by his personall withstanding the whole Councell of Constance . And what learning , what eloquence , what memory , all admirable were in Hierom of Prage , as also with what singular patience he tooke his death , is most significantly deliuered in an Epistle of c Poggius , who as an eye witnes beheld him , and seemed to be much affected with the singular parts of the man. Which noble testimony of that worthy Poggius , is acknowledged by d Cochleus . Whilst these two liued , there were diuers e Priests , and f Preachers , which agreed in their doctrine ; and in their Sermons reproued the Popish Clergy for their Simony , keeping of Concubines , auarice , ryot , and Secular-like pride . But after the death of those two famous seruants of God , their g followers got to them a Bishop , who was a Suffragane to the Archbishop of Prage , and by him they put into holy Orders , as many Clerkes as they would . Which the Archbishop tooke so ill , that he suspended his Suffragan . But it was not long after , that h Conradus the Archbishop himselfe became a Hussite also , as the Authour calleth him . Vnder this Conradus , as President of the assembly , these Hussites held a Councell at Prage , in the yeare 1421 , and there they compiled a Confession of their faith . This cause did the said Archbishop , and many Barons of Bohemia , afterward stiffely maintaine , & complained against the Emperor Sigismund , for offring wrong to those of their Religion . i Alexander also the Duke of Lituania , did giue these Hussites ayd , which moued Pope Martin the fifth to write vnto him in this sort : Know , that thou couldest not giue thy faith to Heretikes , which are the violaters of the holy faith , and that thou doest sinne deadly if thou shalt keepe it , because there cannot be any fellowship of a Beleeuer with an Infidell . Thus did the vertuous Pope write . k In processe of time there grew a parley betweene Sigismund the Emperour , and the Bohemians . There among the Compacts , this was one , That the Bishop should promote to holy Orders the Bohemians , euen the Hussites , which were of the Vniuersitie of Prage . And they might well deserue to be reputed Vniuersity men : for Cochleus himselfe witnesseth , that the Priests of the Thaborites were skilled in arguing , and exercised in the holy Scripture . l Kakizana , one of them did vndertake to dispute with Capistranus , a great and learned Papist . By that time that the yeare 1453. was come , Aeneas : Syluius doth complaine , that m the kingdom of Bohemia was wholly gouerned by Heretikes . Now all the Nobilitie , all the Comminaltie is subiect to an Heretike . That was one George of Gyrziko , Gouernour of the kingdome of Bohemia , vnder King Ladislaus . But when Ladislaus was dead , this n George himselfe was by the Nobles , and people chosen King of that Countrey : And continuing the ancient profession of his Religion , about the yeare 1458. those of Vratislauia and Silesia doe refuse to obey him , as being an Heretike . Notwithstanding Pope Pius the second then intending warres against the Turke , did by all meanes perswade them , that they should yeeld obedience vnto him . This George , saith the Authour , was borne and brought vp in the heresie of the Hussites . Now when Pope Pius did interpose himselfe as a Mediator betweene the King and his subiects , George did require of the Pope , that hee might keepe the Compacts agreed vpon at Basil , in behalfe of the Bohemians . And when o Pius would not yeeld thereunto , the King calleth together the Estates of his kingdome , and protesteth that hee would liue & die in those Compacts , and so did also the nobles which were Hussites . This was done at Prage in the yeare 1462. This resolutenesse of his caused that Pope to tolerate many things in him . But Paul 2 , who succeeded in that See of Rome , did excommunicate that King , & set vp a Croisado against him . Also he gaue to Matthias the King of Hungary , the title of King of Bohemia . p Onuphrius in the life of Paul the 2. saith , that the Pope did excommunicate him , and depriue him of his kingdome . Indeed for seuen yeares this George & Matthias did war for it , and Matthias got from him Morauia , and Silesia , & a good part of the kingdom of Bohemia : Vratislauia also , and some other Prouinces and Cities did put themselues in subiection to Mathias . Yet did not George deale hardly with the Papistes which were in Prage ; but in his greatest extremity did vse both the aduise and aid of many Nobles of the popish belief . At length , after the continuance of warre for seuen yeares , Mathias concludeth a peace with king George , both against the wil of q the Pope , and the Emperour . And then this King was content to aske of the Pope an absolution from the Excommunication , some Princes being mediators for him in that respect . But before the Agents could returne from Rome , the King died , in the yeare of our Lord , 1471. By this Story it is manifest , that both noble and learned of high account , were of that Christian Beliefe which Iohn Hus taught , and were contented to aduenture al things which they had in the world for the maintenance of the same . Perhaps here it may bee asked ; but how shal we know that Iohn Hus and his followers did imbrace that Religion which is now professed in England ? We find in Aeneas Syluius , some opinions of theirs , which peraduenture will scant be reputed currant among all English Protestants . Hee rehearseth these foure of theirs : m That they would receiue the Sacraments in both kinds ; that ciuill dominion is inhibited to Clergie men ; that Preaching of the Word was permitted to al men ; that publik crimes are in no sort to be tolerated . I answer , that truth it is , that hee there mentioneth onely those ; and whether he relateth them truly or no , it may be doubted , as anon I shall shew , by laying open the custom of the enemies of the Gospell , in misreporting their doctrine . But n elsewhere he deliuereth other opinions of theirs , as against the Supremacy of the Pope against Purgatory , against Inuocation of Saints , and such like matters . If we returne to Cochleus , who was best acquainted with their matters , we shal find much more . As thus , o Hus translated all the Books of Canonicall Scripture into the Bohemian tongue , and the people did most diligently read them . They would haue the holy Scriptures to be the onely Iudge in Controuersies . They held , that all Bishops and Priestes are the Successors of the Apostles ; that , not the Pope , but Christ is the head of the Church , neither are the Cardinals the body , but all that beleeue in Christ ; that , that the Pope is not a member of the Church , but of the Deuill , and his Synagogue ; that one Pope was a woman : yea , Hus did preach , that the Pope is an abomination , and Antichrist . Also he calleth the p generall Councell at Constance , The Synagogue of Sathan . Another of his articles was , q The Pope is the Beast in the Apocalyps . His Schollers after his death , r brake downe the Images in Churches and Monasteries : yea , f Zisca did cast down all the churches , which were dedicated to the virgin Mary , or to any Saint ; as if it were lawfull onely to build a Church to Almighty God. In his time the professors began to be distinguished in two companies ; the one of thē did not so much dissent from the Pope as the other : Those which in fewer matters diffred from the Bishop of Rome , retained still the name of Hussites ; they which disagreed in more , were called Thaborites , of Thabor , the citie which Zisca built for them . And these were the greater number , and the stronger . There is in Cochleus a confession of faith made by one Iohann . Pezibram , a Bohemian , who was but a Hussite , and not wel affected to the Thaborites , because he accounted them as a kinde of Precisians , or Puritans in comparison of himselfe ; yet this more mild man doth wish and beg of God , to see a reformation of the Church , that t there might be redressed Symonies throughout all the world , most detestable , most wicked , setting to sale of al Sacramēts , most insatiable auarice , most impudent fornications , most putrified vncleannesses , rottennesses most abominable , Concubines keeping most polluted , manners most dissolute , most corrupt gestures and behauiors , harlotry euery where too too much multiplied in the Clergy , wherwith alas the whole world lieth corruptly filthy . Also the Lucifer-like pride of the Clergie is exalted aboue God , their dainty & daily banquets , their abundant riches , and rich abundance , their disquietnes most litigious being the chiefe root of the quarels of the world , their curiositie most vaine , their most vnseemely pompe of apparell , their conuersation most Secular-like , their most open transgression of all the Commandements of God , their most remisse care of soules , their most negligent regard of the word of God. This he saith for himselfe : but concerning the Thaborites , who indeed came neerer to the purity of the Gospel , he witnesseth of them , that they held , u that materiall bread doth remaine in the Sacrament ; that the Saints now triumphant are not to be called vpon ; that there is no purgatory ; that no suffrages or prayers are to be made for the dead . Also they allow not of the holy dayes almost of all the Saints , nor of Eue or Vigils that goe before them ; nor the consecrations of visible things , as salt , oyle , holy water , Bels , and such like . They haue a schismaticall celebration of their Masses , that is , a seuerall sort of Church-seruice , and refuse the most celebrious seruice of the Church , and the rites and administrations of almost all the Sacraments . Let our Papists now speak , whether they & we do not agree in the same doctrine altogether . For I doubt not but they who had receiued so much grace frō God , as to see al these things , were also partakers of farther knowledg in the misteries of saluatiō . While I haue spokē thus largely concerning these good Christians in Bohemia , let not any man imagin that Christs faithfull flocke was restrained within the compasse of that countrey , so that godly men were else no where to be found . For certaine it is , that betweene the times of Io. Hus , who was burnt in the yeare 1415 , and the first standing vp of M. Luther , were very many other who in that darknes did see what belonged vnto the light of the Gospel . Among these may be reckoned as very memorable the Waldenses ; who about the yeare 1508 , do make an a answer in defence of themselues ; and therin as they testifie that then they had Priests of their owne : so they speake against Purgatory , and most openly against Transubstantiation . The same touching Transubstantiation they doe in a Confession of b theirs , where also they impugne Adoration of the Eucharist . There also they name the Prelates Vnsauor● Salt , and auouch that the execrabl● naughtinesse , which was in them by the instinct of the Deuill , did driue them away from the Sea of Rome . For the Papists in their Sermons did call one another Schismaticks , Hereticks , Sacrilegious false Prophets , rauening VVolues , the Beast and Whore in the Reuelation , c of these there were many in one part of France , who time out of mind had refused to beare the yoake of the Pope , and therefore in the dayes of Frauncis 1. King of France , by a bloudy decree of that King , but by the execution of one Minerius a most cruell person ; Merindol & Cabriers , with some other villages about them , were sacked and destroyed , men , women , & children , being slaine ; yea , diuers of them being stripped starke naked first , and then murthered , and fortie poore women being burned in a Ba●ne . I may adde vnto these many worthy men here & there dispersed , whereof all cryed out against the Church of Rome , and desired a reformation , and many of them apprehended , and deliuered to other the true meanes of Iustification , which is the nearest point of saluation . The d Author of the 16 Century nameth about the yeare 1500 , and somewhat after ( but yet before Luther ) Baptista Mantuanus , & Franciseus Picus , Earle of Mirandula , both which much inueighed agaiust the Clergy and their whole practise . Also one Doctor Keiserspergius ; another called Iohn : Hilton ; a third named Doctor Andreas Proles , and Sauanorola , all groning vnder the burthen of those times . The e Oration of Picus in the Coūcel of Later an is extant ; where besides his most bitter taxing of the filthy behauiour of the Clergie , he vseth these words : Pietie is almost sunke into superstition . How Mantuan doth euery where pay the Romanists , may appeare to those who read his workes . f But one place of him I will name ; — Petrique domus polluta fluente Marcessit Luxu , ( nulla hic arcana reuelo Nonignota loquor , liceat vulgata referre : Sic Vrbes populique ferunt , ea fama per omnem I am vetus Europam ) mores extirpat honestos : Sanctus ager scurris , venerabilis ara cynaedis Seruit , honorandae Divum Ganymedibus aedes . Quid miramur opes , recidiuaque surgere tecta ? Thuris odorati globulos & cinnama vendit Mollis Arabs , Tyr● vestes , venalia nobis Templa , Sacerdotes , Altaria , Sacra , Coronae Ignis , Thura , Preces , Coelum est venale Deusque . Some of them I English thus . Priests land now Iesters vile doth serue , the Altars Bawds maintaine ; Of holy Churches of the Gods , lewd Ganymeds make their gaine . Why doe we wonder that their wealth , and houses falne doe rise , Sweet Frankincense and Cinnamon are the onely Marchandise Of the Arabians ; and but Clothes the Tyrians vse to sell : But with vs Churches , Altars , Priests , yeeld money well . Things hallowed , crowns , fire , frankincense , the Prayers which we make ; Yea Heauen , yea God , are saleable , if money wee may take . The opinions of Sauanorola against Popery are many ; and for them ( howsoeuer it be otherwise coloured ) he was burnt . In the matter of free h Iustification he is cleare . And the same is written also of i Trithemius , another learned man , who liued at that time . How in England Christ had in all these times Professors of the truth , I shall haue occasion to shew anon , when I come to speake of Iohn Wiclefe . In the meane while I shal not do amisse to mētion some other whowere between the daies of Io. Hus , & M. Luther . A special oppugner of the Papacy was the learned Laurentius Valla , a Romane Patritian , and Canon of S. Iohn of Later an there . He wrote a k Treatise of purpose against the forged donation of Cōstantine . He prouounceth of his own experience , That the Pope himselfe doth make war against peaceable people , & soweth discord between Cities & Princes . The Pope doth both thirst after mens riches , and swalloweth vp his owne . He maketh gain of not only the Common wealth , but the Estate Ecclesiasticall , and the holy Ghost . The latter Popes do seeme to labour this , that looke how much the ancient Popes were wise , and holy , so much they will be wicked and foolish . He liued about the yeare 1420 , and for the freenesse of his speech and pen , was by the Pope driuen into exile . About the same time liued Archdeacon l Nicholaus Clemang●is , who rebuked many things in the Ecclesiasticall state , and spake excellently in the matter of generall Councels , and their circumstances , as hereafter may be declared . m Petrus de Aliaco , Cardinall of Cambray , gaue a Tract to the Councell of Constance , touching the reformation of the Church . There doth he reproue many notable abuses of the Romanists , & giueth aduise how to represse them ; n There should not be multiplied , saith he , such varietie of Images and pictures in the Churches ; there should not be so many holy dayes ; there should not be so many new S t s canonized ; Apocryphal writings should not be read in the churches on holy dayes ; o such numerosity & variety of religious persons not expedient ; there are so many Orders of begging Friers , that their state is burtheusome to men , hurtfull to hospitals , and to the poore ; few doe now study diuinity , for the abuse of the Church of Rome , who hath despised Diuines ; all now turne to the law , & artes of gaine . He saith , that it was then a prouerbe , The Church is come to that estate , that it is not worthy to be ruled , but by reprobates . He hath very much more , and in the p end concludeth , That as there were 7000 , who had not bowed to Baal : so it is to bee hoped there bee some , which desire the reformation of the Church . Imagine whether this Cardinall , if he had found company to haue ioyned with him , would not haue sayd much more . About that time liued Leonardus Aretinus , whose little book against Hypocrites is worth the reading . So is the oration of Antonius Cornelius Eynni●hanus , laying open the lewd lubric●●e of Priests in his dayes . So doth he detect many abuses and errours , who wrote The ten grieuances of Germany ; but those who compiled the hundred grieuances of the German nation , doe discouer many more . Finally , he who list to see further , that God euen in those dead dayes , had diuers seruants , who by more then a glimpse did see the truth , and desired yet to be more plentifully instructed in religion , let him read the Catologus testium veritatis , lately set out , and there he shall find diuers , whom I haue not named . By this time I trust it is manifest how fals a slander that of the Papists is , that before the daies of M. Luther , there was neuer any man of our religion . Til the time of the Councell of Constance , this case is cleared . And beyond that , it is as easie to shew , that I. Hus , & Hierom of Prage had their imediat antecessors in witnessing the faith of Christ For they were instructed & much helped by the Books of Io. Wiclif an English man ; and therefore saith Platina , as spectators of Wiclife , they were condemned in the Councell of Constance . AEneas Syluius sheweth the meanes how those Bohemians came to know the doctrine of Wiclife , he saith thus , He who first raised vp the opinion of the Hussites , had them frō Oxford , carying thence into Bohemia Wiclefs books de Realibus Vniuersalib ' , Coehleus , who by his good will would bee taken for a great defender of Popery , giueth yet a larger testimony ; for he saith , That as a Bohemian brought first into Bohemia Wiclefs books de Realibus Vniuer salibus ; so there was afterward one Peter Paine , a Scholler of Wiclefs , who after the death of his Master came also into Bohemia , and brought with him Wiclef bookes , which were in quantity as great as S. Austins works : many of these books did Hus afterward translate into their mother tongue . In plaine termes , after this the Author deliuereth it , That the Hussites & Thaborites were branches of Wiclefe . And in the same book Hus did commit spiritual fornication with many strangers , with Wiclefist the Dulcimist , &c. And in the next he auoucheth , that a Hus & Hierom tooke their heresies frō Wiclef . And once againe he termeth the Protestant Germās b new Wiclefists . What an opinion of this man I. Hus had , may be fully seen by that wish of his , wherin he praied , c that he might there be where the soul of Wiclef was . Now what Wiclef did teach , may be easily gathered , if by nothing else , yet by the deadly hatred which the Romanistes did carrie towards him . The Councell of Constance did define him to be an Heretike long after his death , & commanded that his bones should be taken vp & burnt . Also Pope Iohn 23. in a general Councell at Rome , did before that time condemne him for an heretike ; which the Hussites did but laugh at : but no man had a harder conceit of him then Cochl . who sticketh not to affirme , that he thinketh that f the torments of Wiclefe are greater in hell , then those of Iudas , or Nero. If God almightie had no better opinion of him , the man were in an ill case . But the best is , this cholerick Criticke is not the Iudge of all the world . He was angry belike , in behalfe of Transubstantiation , concerning which he citeth this article of Wiclefe : There was neuer a greater heresie , then that which putteth the Accident without a Subiect in the Eucharist . But hee might haue named more points , wherein that holy man did differ from the Church of Rome . The Councel of Constāce picketh out 45. articles of his Positions , which the learned Reader may find there . Yet doubtles many of them are falsly reported , which is a matter common with enemies of the truth , to peruert & misconster , that so they may more freely defame . There was one Wilh . Wideford , who tooke on him to answer 18. articles said to bee Wiclefs , whence a man may gathersome of his doctrine . But that all things there said against him were not true , may wel be obserud out of the same answere , declaring that he had many things concerning Wiclef ; but only by a a fame and report , and that is not the most certaine relater . What positions indeed he held , may be seen in M. Fox , reporting his life and actions , as also in Catalogo testium veritatis . And those who be not learned , may esteem of thē by the doctrine of Io Hu● before rehearsed , who by the testimony of the Papists themselues , as I haue shewed , maintained the opinions of Wiclef . Now that this worthy Champion & Preacher of the Gospel of Iesus Christ went not alone , but had many English men and women , who in his life time , & after his death beleeued as he beleeued , and professed as he professed , is in the next place to be shewed . Among the chiefe of his fautours , were Iohn of Gant , ( as Parsons the Iesuite confesseth ) and Lord Henry Percy ; the one of them Duke of Lancaster , the other Marshall of England . M. Fox citeth out a Register of the Archb. of Canterbury , a Mandate that the Conclusions of Wiclefe were preached in diuers and sundry places of the Archbishops Prouince , generally , commonly , and publikely . The same also is manifested by a letter of the Archbishop to the Bishop of Lōdon ; and in a Monition directed to Oxford , where it is said , that certain Conclusions hereticall and erronious were generally and commonly preached and published in diuers places of the Prouince of Canterbury . There be extant also Letters of king Richard 2. directly signifying so much . But there is nothing which may more amply testifie the spreading of his doctrine , then an Act of Parliament in the beginning almost of that young Kings dayes , where it is related , that there were diuers Preaching dayly , not onely in Churches and Church-yardes , but also in markets , faires , & other open places , where as great congregation of people is , diuers Sermons containing heresies , and notorious errours . This putteth me in minde of a written book which once I saw , being a Chronicle compiled by a Monk of Leicester Abby ; who , writing of the time of the said King , reporteth at large , that the people in faires and markets , and riding by the way , and almost euery where , would talke of the Scripture , and reprooue the customes of that time , as also the Priests ; to the exceeding great trouble and offence of the Clergie . This they might the rather do out of the Word of God , because the Scriptures were then translated into English , as may bee seene by diuerse Copies written and remaining vnto this day , supposed to be so turned by Wicklef . And it is very probable , that in Leicester shire there were many of those of whom the Monk Leicestrensis spake , since , at Lutterworth a Towne in that County , Iohn Wicklef was beneficed . But the greatest part of this learned mans abode was at the first in the Vniuersitie of Oxford , where hee was both a Doctor and Reader in Diuinity ; and therefore is to bee conceiued to haue many learned men partaking with him in his opinions . Master Fox saith ( out of the Chronicle of S. Albanes ) , that hee had a Benefice in Oxford ; of which he was depriued by Simon Sudbury , Arch-Bishop of Canterbury . It may bee , this was nothing else but the Mastership or chiefe Gouernors place in Bailioll Colledge ; which I am perswaded that hee had , since there are yet two antient Writings in the treasury of that Colledge ( which I haue seene ) , which were made in the name of Iohn Wicklef , Master of that house , and that in the daies of King Richard the Second . But while he liued , he had so many fauourers in that Vniuersity , as that Master Robert Rigges Vice-Chancelor , and the two Proctors , took part with him ; as also Nicholas Herford , Philip Repington and Iohn Ashton , Preachers and Batchelors of Diuinity , and grew into great question for his cause : where Repington in the end beeing Doctor , did slippe from him . Yea , so farre was his doctrine there spred , that Pope Gregorie the Eleuenth , in the yeere 1378 , did direct his B●ll to the Vniuersity of Oxford against the Doctrine and Articles of that learned man , euen Rome it selfe ringing of his opinions in that Vniuersity . Neither did his Followers dye when he himselfe died . But long after that , Pope Gregory the twelfth did direct downe another Bull to Oxford against Wicklef ; in which he vsed the same words which his Predecessors had , that is to say , that Wicklef did follow the doctrine of Marsilius of Padua , and of Iohn of Gandune of vnworthy memory : Which speech is worth the marking ; to shew , that this man also had his Predecessors . The Copie of this latter Bull is to bee seene in the Booke which that worthy louer of Antiquities , Master Hare , gaue to our Vniuersity : where also is to bee seene in the Constitution of a Prouinciall Councell , celebrated at Oxford , a sharp Inquisition decreed by Thomas Arundel Archbishop of Canterbury , against all , euen the heads of Colledges and Halles , and others suspected of Lollardy and Wicleuisme . They might well suppose , that the Students of that place were entertainers of such doctrine , since about that very time a testimoniall was giuen in their Congregation house vnder seale , in fauour of Iohn Wicklef : where these words are among other ; God forbid , that our Prelates should haue condemned a man of such honesty for an Heretick . And yet in the Councell of Constance hee was condemned for such a one , forty yeeres after that he was dead and buried . But all would not serue to extirpate his Bookes or memory out of our Vniuersity : but euen in the daies of King Edward the Fourth , there were new letters directed to the Gouernors of that place , by the King himselfe , to make search for his Bookes , and to burne them . I haue in my custody a faire antient Record of that Vniuersity : which , by meanes of a good friend , I haue gained back to this place . And therein is a solemne Letter directed from the Conuocation of Doctors and Masters , to the King ; te●tifying , that according to their Soueraigns Commandement , they had with accurate diligence searched out the Bookes and Tracts of Wicklef himselfe , and of Reginald Pecock , and had burnt them . So much adoe was it , and that in so long a space , to suppresse the head whereunto Wicklefs doctrine was growne in the famous Vniuersity of Oxford . How elsewhere in this Kingdome , his positions were spred , may be easily collected out of Geffry Chaucer : who , dying about the yeere 1400 , may rightly be supposed to haue liued while Ioh. Wicklef liued . This Chaucer , who wanted neither wit nor learning , did at * large paint-out the pride , lasciuious , vicious , and intolerable behauior of the Pope , Cardinals and Clergy , euen applying the name of Antichrist diuers times vnto the Romane Bishop , and saying , that There were many in those daies of the speakers minde ; yea , finding fault with their faith , aswell as with their manners . The whole tale is wel worth the reading : but I will cite onely a few verses . Peter was neuer so great a foole , To leaue his * Key with such a * lorell , Or take such cursed such a toole , He was aduised nothing well : I trow they haue the key of hell : Their master is of that place Marshall : For there they dressen hem to dwell , And with false Lucifer there to fall : They beene as proud as Lucifer , As angry , and as enuious : From good faith they beene full farre , In couetize they beene curious . To catch cattaile , as couetous As hound , that for hunger will yall : Vngodly and vngracious And needily such falshod shall fool fall . This and a hundred times as much , he expresseth in a simple plough mans person ; as euidently inferring , that the husbandman & meanest country body of that time , by the reading and hearing of the Word of God , could tell what was right and religious , and what otherwise ; yea , and complaine of the blindnesse , and impiety of the Romanists in that age . But if wee would be aduertised , what euen Lay-men in those times could doe , let vs looke into the Declarations of Walter Bruite , who was in question for his opinion , before the Bishop of Hereford , in the yeere 1393 , and gaue vp a a little booke , containing those t●●ngs which he maintained . The true copy of that treatise is yet extant , and deserueth to bee read . There wee may finde these and the like positions : that Bread remaineth in the Sacraments after Consecration ; that The Pope is Antichrist ; that Nothing is to be beleeued , but what may bee confirmed out of the Scriptures ; that The Pope is the Idoll of desolation , sitting in the Temple of God ; that Antichrist is not to come of the Tribe of Dan , neither onely to raigne three yeeres and a halfe : that The Citie Apoc. 17 , is Rome ; that Our Iustification is freely by faith alone ; that The doctrine of the Pope differeth from that of Christ ; that Miracles are no assurance of truth ; that Men are not rashly to bee reputed Saints ; that The Pope hath not power beyond other Bishops , neither is the Head of the Church ; that Papists mistake the keys of binding & loosing ; that Infants dying before Baptisme , are not therefore damned ; that Auricular Confession is not prescribed in the Scripture ; that The Canon Lawe is ill grounded ; that The Pope deceiueth men in his pardons ; that Absolution is to be sought at the hands of God onely ; that The Priests vse vaine prayers in the Masses ; that Exorcismes and holy water are vnlawfull ; that Priests doe sinne , who bargaine to sing for the soules of men departed ; that Religious men and women are deuourers of widowes houses ; that Selling of orders and dirges is naught ; that The Pope is the beast with the two hornes like the Lamb , while he challengeth the double sword ; that He seeketh to bee worshipped as God ; that Dux Cleri doth make vp the number 666 ; that Worshipping of Images is idolatry ; that Temporall goods may be taken from the Clergie offending . There was a great Papist , one William Wideford , whom before I mentioned , who giueth testimony to this Treatise of Bruite , whom hee calleth Waltherus Britta in Latine ; and writing against Wicklef , maketh twise mention of a booke of his owne , sent to the Bishop of Hereford ( Dominum Erfordensem he calleth him ) in confutation of the book of Walter Bruite . While I write these things , I cannot but think vpon the audacious absurdnes of an ignorāt popish Doctor ; who blusheth not to vtter , that it is most manifest , that All in England were Papists , without exception , from the first christening thereof , vntill this age of King Henry the Eight . He is doubtless an honest man , and worthie to bee trusted on his word . It is not onely manifest , but most manifest , not that the greatest part , but all ; yea , and because it shall not be scanted , all without exception , were Papists , &c. Were Iohn Wicklefs bones burnt , because he was a Papist ? And were the Bulls of the pope denounced against him for that cause ? And were the Arch-bishop Arundels constitutions against his Followers so seuere , because they were Papists ? The man is to be pitied for his simplicity . A man may know by the Lawes , Proclamations , Letters and Proceedings by the State , against some as against Hereticks , as also by the records of Bishops yet extant ; and by the manifold executions and burnings afterward , that euen in that deepe time of ignorance , England did giue most noble testimony of Christs truth against Popery ; euen so farre , as to the fiery triall . If the Christian Reader peruse the Ecclesiasticall History of Master Fox , hee shall finde , how before the Councel , William Sawtree a Priest was burnt , & after him Iohn Badby ; & that because they were Wickleuists or Lollards ( as they then called them ) , and not because they were Papists . There are the reasons also and asseuerations of Puruey and Thorpe against Poperie , with diuers other matters . And is it not to be thought , that the Hereticks increased , when a Synod was assembled in S. Paul's Church at London , into the which came twelue Inquisitors , who in a former Synod were appointed to sift and scan the writings of Wicklef , wherein they found 246. Conclusions ; all which they supposed to be heresie ? But it is plaine , that in the first yeere of King Henry the Fift , diuers were put to death as Lollards . Afterward the Lord Cobham was hanged , for a shew , as if hee had beene a kinde of Traytor : but hee was then also burnt as a reputed Heretick . So was one Iohn Claydon , for his Conscience , consumed to ashes . Not long after the comming of Henry the Sixt to the Kingdome , besides diuers which were questioned and much troubled about religion , Taylor and White , two Priests , and Houeden a Citizen of London , were burnt : and some other followed afterward . Neither did the daies of King Edward the Fourth , and of King Henry the Seuenth , escape without the Martyrdome of sundry English , yeelding vp their liues for Iesus Christ his sake , and for the profession of the truth : The particular Stories of whom may bee found in the Author aboue-named . The Clergy of those times did beare much sway with their Princes , and left no meanes vnsought , no stone vnturned , to keepe vp the dignity and preeminence of their romish Hierarchy , and the superstitious Idolatry which then was in vse . Now , if in the Raigne of all these Princes , so many were slaughtered for the testimony of a good conscience , how many weake brethren were there , who made not open profession of their faith ? & how many did there lie hid , diuers of them in probability hauing confederates , and some of them beeing Priests , and therfore not vnlikely to haue learning both to confirme themselues in the truth , and such others as heard them ? Thus haue I both in England and else-where brought vp the doctrine of the Gospell , vntill the time of Iohn Wicklef , who flourished in the yeere 1371. Heer it may please the Reader to remember , that the iudgement ( before cited ) of two Popes , was , that Wicklef taught the doctrine of Marsilius of Padua , & of Iohn of G●●dune . Of the later of these there yet appeareth no monument written ; but he ioined in opinion with the former . But as for Marsilius Patauinus , our Aduersaries cannot but acknowledge him to be a very learned man , after the measure of the age wherein he liued , which was in the yeere 1324. He wrote a Book against the vsurped power of the Bishop of Rome ; which argument he entred into , in behalfe of the Emperour Lewes of Bauiere , who was mightily layd-at by three Popes successiuely . There the Authour auoweth , as right and iust , the supreme authoritie of the Emperour , displaying the iniquity of the Popes vsurpation ouer Christian Princes , and generall Councels : The book is worth the reading , to see Whether all in times past did allow of the Popes doctrine and proceedings ; or not : his opinions are these ; I that The Pope is not superiour to other Bishops , and much lesse to the Emperour and ciuill Magistrates ; 2 that Things are to be decided by the Scripture ; 3 that Learned men of the Laity haue voices in Councels ; 4 that The Clergie and Pope himself are to be subiect to Magistrates ; 5 that The Church is the whole company of the faithfull ; 6 that Christ is the foundation and Head of the Church ; and appointed no one to be his Vicar ; 7 that priests may be maried ; 8 that Saint Peter was neuer at Rome ; 9 that The Popish Synagogue is a denne of theeues ; 10 that The Doctrine of the Pope is not to be followed , because it leads to euerlasting destruction . In the time of this Marsilius , liued the noble Poet ●●ente , who wrote also a booke against the pope , concerning the Monarchy of the Emperour : but , for taking part with Lewes Bauiere , he was condemned for an Heretike , and his book as hereticall . Then also wrote Occam directly to the same purpose : but for his labour therein , and his large reproofe of the Papacie in other points , hee was excommunicated by the Romane Bishop : which he so much contemned , that hee not vnwillingly dyed vnder that Sentence . About that time were heer and there dispersed sundry godly men , who saw more than the common sort touching religion ; as Hayabalus a Minorite , who frequently said in his Sermons , that The Church of Rome was the whore of Babylon , and that the Pope and his Cardinals were meere Antichrists : which propositions were held somewhat before also by Gerhardus and Dulcinus , two learned men . This Dulcinus may bee thought to haue many followers , since Cochleus could say , that Iohn Hus committed spirituall fornication with the Wickleuists and with the Dulcinists . The same opinions concerning the Pope and Rome , did that rare man , Franciscus Petrarcha , seeme fully to embrace , as may appeare to any who will reade his workes , howsoeuer Cardinall Bellarmine labour to make the world beleeue otherwise , beeing desirous to haue vs thinke , that Petrarch spake not against the Pope , but some abuses in the Court of Rome . And to make it plaine , that it was not a slight conceipt , or onely in a few , that The Pope was Antichrist , and Rome was Babylon , Apo. 17. God stird vp yet more in that age , who proclaimed the same matter ; as , Petrus Iohannes Biraensis , or Piranensis , who was a Minorite ; and for teaching so , was digged vp after that he was dead ; and his body , after the Sentence of Clement the Sixt , was burnt . A few yeeres after him , did Iohannes de Rupe-sciss● , a Monk , teach the same doctrine ; which , as euery man may ghesse , doth ruinate the Papacy in euery respect . Iohannes Gerson came not so farre , but saw in his age many horrible abuses of the Church of Rome , and in his writing spake liberally of it . And it did bite deepe , when hee disputed , that the Pope might bee taken away safely from the Church , and yet no danger follow of it . But let vs now goe a little higher . I mentioned before , how Cochleus saith , that Iohn . H●s took his doctrine from the Wickleuists and the Dulcinists . Heare , I pray you , what he saith : Hus did commit spirituall fornication with many aliens ; with the Wickleuists , the Dulcinists , with the Leonists , the Waldenses , the Albingenses , and other of that sort , enemies of the Church of Rome . These Leonists or poor-men of Lyons , and Waldenses , and Albingenses , were the same men , but diuersly , on diuers occasiōs , tearmed by the Roman Synagogue which hated them . Their opinion then did Hus maintain . AEneas Syluius doth also witnesse the same ; affirming , that the Hussites did embrace the opinions of the Waldenses . There you may see , that their doctrine was against the Primacy of the Pope , Purgatory , and such like matters . Genebrard , who saith , that these Waldenses began , Anno 1170. or , as some other will , 1218. rehearseth out of Syluius these opinions of theirs ; that Prayers for the dead , and Purgatory fire , are an inuention of the Priests couetousnesse ; that Holy Images are to be defaced ; that Confirmation and Extreme Vnction are no Sacraments ; that Auricular Confession is a trifling thing . Hee who list , may see a great many more of their positions agreeing with the doctrine which we teach : which may well also be gathered from the Iesuites themselues . For , that is the cause that Bellarmine ioyneth these together as Hereticks ; the Berengarians , the Petrobrusians , the Waldenses , the Albingenses , the Wickleuists , the Hussites , the Lutherans , &c. And Lewes Richcome , another of that Society , in his defence of the Masse against the Lord Plessis , saith , that The Ministers , for the confirming of their figuratiue sense in This is my body , haue none for their Doctors , for their Antients , for their Fathers , but Berengarius , Zuinglius , Caluin , Carolastadius , Wicklef , the Albingenses , the Waldenses . These Waldenses then and Albingenses are ours , by the confession of our Aduersaries ; and of these long agone there were no small company . For , as Du Haillan , in the life of Philip the Third , King of France , speaketh ; being driuen from Lyons in France , they withdrew themselues into Lombardy : where they so multiplied , that their doctrine began to spread through Italy , and came as farre as Sicily . As the same Author writeth , Philippus Augustus came to his Kingdome , Anno 1180. which is now more then foure hundred yeeres since : and in his time it was , that the Albingenses did so increase in France , that the Pope and Princes adioyning were afraid of their number . Hee who readeth the Story of them , shall see that they are reported to haue held many grosse , wicked , and absurd opinions mingled with their true Doctrine . But Du Haillan the best and iudicious Chronicler of France , and no partiall witnesse in our behalfe ( since his profession touching Religion , was such , that hee was imployed to write that Story by King Henry the third ) , had not so little wit , but that he perceiued those imputations to bee laid on them in odium , and of purpose to procure their defamation . See how wisely hee speaketh truth and his conscience ; and yet so coucheth it , that his fellowes might not bee iustly offended at his words . Although , saith hee , these Albingenses had euill opinions , yet so it is , that these did not stir vp the hate of the Pope and of great Princes against them so much , as their liberty of speech did , wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and dissolutenesse of the said Princes and of the Clergie , yea , to tax the vices and actions of the Popes . This was the principall point which brought them into vniuersall hatred , and which charged them with more euil opinions then they had . Now first , that they were not men infamous , either for their vile opinions or filthy conuersation ; and secondly , that they were not onely base and poore people , it is euident by this , that so many noble and worthy men took part with them , yea , to the aduenturing of their liues in their company , and for their behalfe ; as the Counts or Earles of Tholouse , of Coninges , of Bigorr , of Carmain , yea , the King of Arragon . And when Raymund , the Earle of Tholouse , was for his beliefe excommunicated by the Pope , and a Croisado was proclaimed against him and the Albingenses , as if they had beene Saracens or Infidels , not onely the Counties of Foix and Coninges came with all their strength to assist Raymund , but Alphonsus , the King of Arragon , came in his owne person to his succour , as beeing his kinsman and his friend . And when all these were met together ; the report is , saith Du Haillan , that the Armie of these Hereticks did consist of about the number of one hundred thousand fighting men . These things beeing thus discouered by men of your owne part ; bee ashamed , you Papists , and blush to spread among your simple and credulous Followers , that neuer men did as we doo , nor beleeued as wee beleeue , before Luther's time ; but that all Christendome formerly liked of the papisticall doctrine and proceedings . But because you shall heare one testimony further touching these Albingenses and Waldenses , how honest and truely religious they were , I will cite what one Reinerius , a man who did hate them , and was ( as it is supposed ) an Inquisitor against them , reported concerning them , now 300 yeers ago , or thereabout . Thus then , among much other matter , he saith of them : There were many Sects of Hereticks long ago : among all which Sects that are or were , there is not one more pernicious to the Church of God , than that of the poore men of Lyons , for three causes . First , because it is of longer continuance : some say , that it hath endured from the time of Syluester : others say , that from the time of the Apostles . The second is , because it is more generall : for , there is almost no Land into which this Sect doth not creep . The third , that whereas all other , by the immanity of their blasphemies against God , doo make men abhorre them ; this of the Lyonists , hauing a great shew of godlinesse , because they doo liue iustly before men , and doo beleeue all things well of God , and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed , onely the Church of Rome they doo blaspheme and hate : which the multitude is easie to beleeue . And as Sampson ' s Foxes had their faces seueral waies , but their tails tied one to another : so Hereticks are diuerse in Sects among themselues , but in the impugning of the Church they are vnited . There can hardly be found a more honourable testimony out of the mouth or penne of a bitter and bloudy Aduersary as he was , who wrote this & much more concerning those good seruants of God. We shall not need to ascend any higher , since hee giueth witnes of the antiquity of their profession long before his time : which otherwise to make plain , is as easie , as to deliuer that which hitherto I haue spoken . And it is not to bee conceiued , that Petrus Waldo ( of whom the Waldenses tooke their name at Lyons ) had his doctrine from no body , but that of himselfe he attained to his owne knowledge , since he was not deeply learned . Berengarius indeed was onely called in question for denying Transubstantiation in the Sacrament ; but it may well bee thought , that in something else he dissented from the Church of Rome : and albeit by his owne weaknes , and the importunity of the Clergie , he yeelded once or twice to recant and abiure the true doctrine which hee held , yet hee had many scholars , who by his example would not bee driuen from the right beleef which they had apprehended . These scholars were in France in great numbers , and in diuerse other lands : and Genebrard cannot conceal it , but that about the yeer of our Lord 1088 , Basilius the Monk did set on foot again the errour of Berengarius . And might not the doctrine of both these bee sucked from Bertram , who wrote so learnedly and so directly out of the Scriptures and Fathers against the reall presence and Transubstantiation , that the Index expurgatorius cannot tel what to make of him ? But the Bishop of Eureux , vnder the name of Henry Constable , tearmeth him The great fore-runner of all the Sacramentaries : and Richcome the Iesuit disclaimeth him plainly as a Sacramentarie Heretick . Then Caluin and Zuinglius were not the first who gain-said transubstantiation . Before our ascending thus high , we might tell you of Saint Bernard : whom although it is likely , at the first dash , you will challenge as your owne ; yet , when you haue well aduised on him , you may let him goe again : for , albeit hee had his errours , which he suckt from the age wherein he liued , and we may not in all things subscribe to his iudgement , but say of him , as commonly it is spoken , Bernardus non vidit omnia ; yet wee finde in him saniorem partem , a liberall profession of many good & sound points agreeable to the Gospell . Hee , for a fashion , acknowledgeth many matters to be in the Pope , and giueth him greater titles than any Papist can iustifie ; but it is , by such insinuation , to win him more attention frō Eugenius : and then , hauing procured liberty , or rather taken it to himself , he schooleth and lessoneth the Pope plainly ; shewing , that he liked not of their ordinary courses , neither did hee repute him to haue that preeminence or prerogatiue which his Parasites did allow him . But , touching the matter of merit by good works , for iustification alone by Christ , of free-will , for certain assurance of saluation in the death and by the strength of our Sauiour , and for disliking then the vile life of the Clergie , how cleer , how learned , how copious is hee ! These things wee teach together with him ; and , notwithstanding his other slips , we doubt not but his soule doth rest with the Lord , God pardoning vnto him his errours and his ignorances ; which hee , being carried with the stream of that Time ; did neuer discusse , but took them as they were deliuered to him , without scanning or examining . And to this good hope we are firmly induced by that Saying of Saint Paul ; Other Foundation can no man lay , but that which is laid , which is Iesus Christ : and if any man build on this Foundation , gold , siluer , precious stones , timber , hay or stubble , euery mans work shall bee made manifest : for , the day shall declare it , because it shall be reuealed by fire ; and the fire shall try euery mans work of what sort it is . If any mans work that he hath built-vpon , abide , he shall receiue wages : if any mans workburn , he shall lose , but he shall be safe himself . He held the Foundation of iustification onely by faith in Christ ; and that our best deeds are but via Regni , non causa regnandi ; the way to the Kingdome , not the cause of raigning : and for that cause , we doubt not but his soule is safe , though his hay and stubble of praying to Saints , and such other stuffe as cannot endure the fire of the holy Ghost's triall , doo burn and consume . And this is our iudgement touching many other both before and after the time of Saint Bernard ; that , holding Christ the Foundation aright , and groning vnder the heauy burden of humane traditions , satisfaction , and other popish trash , they , by a generall repentance from their errors and lapses knowne and vnknowne , and by an assured faith in their Sauiour , did finde fauour with the Lord. Such as these were we hold to be God's good seruants , to bee of the number of the Elect ; and , propter sanioren et meliorem partem , for their sounder and better part , to bee of that Church , whereof we are to be members ; of that body , whereof ( by the grace of Christ ) we are a portion . And in this respect our settled and resolued iudgement is , that when it is asked , Where our Church in former Ages was ; we may , besides that which we haue formerly answered , truly say , that it was in England , in France , in Spaine , in Italy , yea , in Rome it selfe : Spiritus vbi vult spirat , the holy Ghost breatheth where it pleaseth : for who cannot conceiue by the writings of many in former Ages , or by such touches as others doe giue concerning them , that diuers , who liued neerest the Whore of Babylon , did most detest her abomination ; and , finding that the weaknes and impurity of her doctrine could not truely satisfie the hungry and thirsty soule , did , according to that knowledge which Christ out of his Word reuealed vnto them , seek some means which was not ordinarily professed in that Time ? And if it be asked , Who they were , and how they could lie hid from the world ? It may truly be answered , that their case was like the case of them in the daies of Elias , who were not knowne to that State which would haue persecuted them . Now , why should not wee think , but as God had his secret and inuisible company at that time , in that most idolatrous Countrey : so , in the time of the deepest darknesse , hee had those which saw light ; his Christian Children , among Antichrists Brood ; such as embraced true Religion ; among the superstitious ? So that Italy , and Rome , and these Westerne parts , had some of Gods Saints in all Ages , who , like Sea-fish , most fresh in the salt water , and beeing remoued in their affections , though not in their persons , did with Lot vex their righteous soules in the middest of a spiritual Sodom , and kept themselues vnspotted of the world . And yet it is not to bee taken , that wee coarctate the Church within those Prouinces onely which looked towards the See of Rome ; but know , that God had thousands of his Elect elsewhere . Christians haue bin in India , euen by perpetuall descent , from the daies of the Apostles ; and so in Africa among the Abissines , in infinite and huge companies ; besides such as haue continued in Armenia , Asia the lesser , Aegypt , but especially in the Greeke Church , which was neuer so much as in shew extinguished ; and from whom the Russians and Muscouites had their Faith. Our Popish Lads would gladly shut all these out of Christs Fold , because they acknowledge not the Bishop of Rome for their Vniuersall Pastor : but wee should doe wrong to Almighty God , to pinne his iudgement vpon the Popes sleeue , and to offer to pull from him so many ample Churches ; whereas charity and common sense might put vs in minde , that he might there haue thousands throughout all Ages . Looke to these places , ye Papists , and imagine , that if there had beene none but these ; yet the words of the Scripture , which in generality speake of a Spouse , had beene true : and Christ had there had his body on earth , and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished , if neither we nor the Synagogue of Rome had beene extant . But in as much as it cannot be denied , but that the prophesies concerning Antichrist , doe most touch the Westerne world , Rome beeing by the holy Ghost euidently designed to bee the seat of the Whore of Babylon , as also because our Romish Standard-bearers are more willing to talke of those parts then of any other , I will once returne againe to the Countreys neere adioyning . Then , in some parts of Christendome , how many men were there in all ages , who loathed both the See of Rome , and the whole courses of it , as the Israelites did loath the Aegyptians bondage ? Mathew Paris alone giueth as many notable experiments that way , as relating the Acts of the Emperour Frederick , who put out diuers declarations in detestation of the Pope ; and adding elsewhere , further of his owne , that Pope Gregory did absolue from the oath of fealty , all who were bound vnto the Emperor ; perswading them , that they should be faithfull in vnfaithfulnesse , obedient in disobedience . But so much deserued the Romane Churches lewdnesse , which is to be execrated of all men , that the Popes authority did merit to bee harkened vnto by few or none . He reporteth also of a certain Carthusian Monk at Cambridge , who cryed out against the Pope , and said , that Hee was an Heretick , and that the Churches were profaned ; and of Robert Grosthead , Bishop of Lincolne , who was a man both holy and learned in his time . This Lincolniensis , while he liued , had many combates with the Bishop of Rome , and openly resisted his barbarous tyranny in domineering so farre in England , as to enioyne prouision of the best Benefices to be taken vp for Italian Boyes ; which for a Prebend in his Church of Lincolne , hee would not yeeld vnto ; and for that cause was by the Pope excommunicated . But when hee was dying , hee most bitterly inueighed against the Romane Bishop and the Ecclesiasticall persons , as the most wicked men that did liue . In the same Author you may also finde the conceit which the most reuerend Arch-bishop of York , Sewaldus , had of them and their proceedings . What should I mention Ioachim , who said , that in his time Antichrist was already born , and was in the City of Rome ? or that Bishop of Florence , who liued about the yeer 1100 , and did vse to say , that Antichrist was then in the world ? Which moued Pope Paschalis so much , as that hee thought fit to enquire of him in a Councell , and did there castigate him for it . Notable in this kinde are the Contentions of Philippus Pulcher ▪ the King of France , and his whole Clergy , against Boniface the Eightth . I might adde to these , Petrus de Brus , and many other learned men , who laid the Axe to the very Root of Popery , and some in set Treatises oppugned one of their documents , and some assaulted other ; but that the Writer of the Catalogus testium veritatis , as it is lately enlarged , and Master Fox , and Master Bale , and diuers other , haue largely handled this ▪ to the reading of whose Bookes , I doe referre them who in particular desire to bee more aduertised in this behalfe . Now , if these things doe appeare much by their own witnesse , and by the confession of Papists themselues , as also by such few Records , as ( by Gods prouidence so disposing ) doe yet remaine ; how many illustrious arguments might there haue beene of the Confession of our faith , if the Clergy and Magistracy of those darke times had not burned and suppressed all things which made against them , as I shewed before , touching the Bookes of Iohn Wickles & Reinald Pecock in Oxford ? The Clergy in those dayes did almost rule all : and they had the custody of all Libraries , to ransack at their pleasure , or to put in and pull out : and they had power to search poore mens houses , and to destroy what was thought fit by them to bee destroyed . But God , who would not haue his truth vtterly burned or buried in ashes , suffred a remnant to remaine , yea , and that in England ; albeit Potydor Virgil , with an Italian trick of his owne , did heer consume and destroy many worthy and antient Monuments . By this time , I may wel suppose , that some vehement Papist is euen ready to swell , with his belly full of exceptions against these things heer said . And first he will begin & say , that we rake together , as the Ancestors and forerunners of our faith , such as were notorious Hereticks ; as Wicklef , or Hus , or the Waldenses , men condemned by Popes or generall Councels : and Hereticks , as Campian telleth vs , are the dregges , and the bellows , and the fewell of hell . These , as our Papists commonly say , are already fire-brands of hell , and frying there in flames . It is no rare matter with the Synagogue of Rome , to pronounce such Sentences as these are . Our Rhemists , by their Consistoriall or Imperiall Decree , haue defined , that Caluin and Verone are not onely Hereticks , but Reprobates , for writing so as they haue done , touching the Article of Predestination : Yea , they call Master Beza , a Reprobare also , although hee were then aliue , and long after too ; how ●oeuer the Iesuites some few yeeres since , did , by a most ridiculous pamphlet or other newes , spread it in France and Italy , that hee was then dead , and that dying had recanted his Religion , and was returned to the Romish faith ; which also Geneua did by his example . It is no newes with Iesuites to lie , and therefore Master Beza must beare with them ; and so had he neede to doe with the Rhemists also , who got hastily into Gods Chaire , and there concluded him to bee a Reprobate . But indeed these good Christians before-named , of whom many lost their liues for the maintenance of Gods truth , were Hereticks in such a manner , as Christ was said to bee a blasphemer ; who indeed was both called so , and condemned to bee such a one , by the counsell of the high Priests , Scribes and Rulers of the Synagogue . We doe not beleeue , that a●l those are Hereticks , whom your Papists will so call or account : for , you giue vs that name , which , maugre your malice , you shall neuer bee able to proue against vs. They are truely orthodox and right Catholiques , who teach nothing but that whereof they haue euident warrant out of the Word of God. And this wee haue , as hath beene oft shewed by men of our side , and in that question wee are ready at all times to iump with you , for any part or all the Doctrine wee professe . With Saint Paul therefore wee say , that , After the way that you call heresie , so worship wee the God of our Fathers . The same which you maliciously and pres●mptuously tearm schisme and heresie , is that , whereupon , vnder our blessed Sauiour , wee rest our soules ; and by the Confession thereof , wee hope to bee saued in the day of the generall Iudgement . Do not you therfore take that for granted , which is so highly questioned betwixt vs and you ; but rather , if you can prooue our Prof●ssion to bee hereticall , by Gods grace we shall not shrink at any of your biggest obiections . Yea , but say you further , The Writers which make mention of these your Predecessors , doo brand them with the holding of some most grosse and damnable doctrine , which you your selues will not auouch . My answer is , that wee our selues doo easily beleeue so much : for , did malice , I pray you , euer say well ? The Apostles were at more times , and in more places than one , charged with many accusations ; which yet , in truth , were but calumniations : The old Christians in the Primitiue Church were slandered , to vse incestuous company each with other , like Oedipus , and to eat vp mans flesh at the banquet of Thyestes ; yea , their owne * seruants for fear were induced to lay such matters to their charge . Athanasius was accused to haue cut off ones hand : and a harlot to his face would haue calumniated him to haue committed fornication with her . This practice was neuer more liberally frequented , than by the enemies of the Gospell in the late daies of Popery . You may remember what I cited before out of Du Haillan , concerning matters falsely obiected to the Albingenses . There is extant an excursitory Oration of the Waldenses ; wherein they say , that , for that their faith which they were ready to iustifie , they were condemned , iudged , captiuated , and afflicted ; and afterward that they were called Hereticks : but in their Confession they haue it directly ; Of these criminations whereof we are blamed of tentimes , we are nothing at all guilty . The Pope and his Chaplains were fell & furious against them , because they did bite so neer : and therefore , to disgrace them both in present and to posterity , they held it fit , that by speech , preaching and writing , it should be divulgated , that they taught monstrous blasphemies ; that by that meanes the credulous people might be preiudicate ; and so not onely frighted from hearkning to them , but bee much the readier to ioyne in the prosecution of them to prison and to death . But what they indeed held , is declared before . When Iohn Hus was at the Councell of Constance , hee did openly call God to witnes , that Hee did neither preach nor teach those things which his Aduersaries did obiect against him , neither that they euer came into his minde . Neither is it to be maruelled , that they did load his scholars with the like false accusations , when their malice was such towards them , as that they burnt many thousands of them in Barnes : which was done by the treachery of one Mainardus . In other places the Romanists haue still held the same course of slandering : which caused the Protestants to professe in the Diet at Augusta , that Diuers opinions were falsely reported vp and down , which wrongfully were fathered on them ; and that those were not only estranged from the holy Scriptures , but that they were abhorrent euen from common sense . And is it not probable , that long since , when much darknesse did couer the face of the earth , that few had grace to perceiue their dooings , and fewer had authority to question their doctrine , the Pope-holy Clergie , which hated the true gospellers with all their harts , would pay them with vile & odious reports ; when in this Age , wherein God hath affoorded more plentifull meanes to discouer their false-hoods , they doo dare , not onely in their Sermons , or in their secreter whisperings , but in their printed books , to proclaim abroad concerning vs , most false and vngodly calumniations and imputations ; as , that wee doo teach all loosenesse of life and libertinisme by this our new Gospell ; that we maintain , that All sinnes are equall ; that we hold it as a Maxime , that God is the Author of sinne ; and whatsoeuer it pleaseth Master Campian and his Fellowes to inuent and deuise touching vs : whereas we vtterly disclaim these and the like positions , as execrable and vngodly ; yea , that Mounti-bank , which once before I mentioned , hath not blushed to asseuere , that we so teach , as that by our doctrine the Protestants are bound in conscience , neuer to ask God forgiuenesse of their sinnes ; and that They are bound in conscience to auoid all good works ; as also , that We make God the only cause of sinnes ; and hold , that God is worse than the diuell . So shamelesse was this fellow growne , that hee neither knoweth nor careth what hee saith : and yet many a poor Papist , abused and gulled by the diuels deceiuing instruments , doth swallow such Gudgeons , and runneth away with these things ; beeing as verily perswaded of them , as that the gospel is true . Such a hand the seminary Priests haue ouer their disciples , that they may not read our Books , to see whether these obiections be true or no ; neither may they hear ought to the contrary . Now , if they thus vse vs , who can speak for our selues ; will any man maruell , that those who professed the Verity two or three hundred yeers since , doo taste of the malignant aspersions of those Times ? The Romanists , notwithstanding all this which hath been said , doo not yet so leaue vs ; but once more further adde , that none of all those which hitherto haue been named , or can be named , but in some knowne , consessed , and vndoubted opinions , did vary from you : and therefore they and you may not bee said to bee all of one Church . Our Masters of Rhemes doo think , that this lieth hardly vpon vs : and therefore thus vauntingly they vrge ; that They will not put the Protestants to prooue , that there were 7000 of their Sect , when their new Elias Luther began : but let them proue , that there were seuen , or any one , either then , or in all ages before him , that was in all points of his belief . What the old Fathers taught , we may haue time heerafter to shew : but for other of later time , it is most easie to manifest , that all those whom before I haue named , did generally , for all main matters , teach the same that we now doo teach . There is no Papist , who can truely , and without calumniating them , or faining things vpon them , demonstrate , that in causes which touch the substance of faith , or the foundation of Christian Religion , they did dissent from vs. Hee that will try this , let him look on the Declaration of Walther Bruite , which I before mentioned ; and let him read it set down by himself , and not reported by other . And what did that learned Lay-man deliuer there , which was not the belief of Wicklef , and the rest of the English , professing the Gospell in those Times ? But if there bee , in some petty matters , yea , questions of some reasonable moment , difference of opinion between them and vs , shal wee not therefore bee of the same Church with them , or they with vs ? Yes verily : for , otherwise many of the antient Fathers should not bee of the Communion of Saints , or Catholick Congregation , with those who came after them , and amended their errors : for , was not Lactantius spotted with the Millenary infection ? and Cyprian with the matter of re-baptizing ? Had not Austen an opinion of the necessity of the Eucharist to bee administred to children ; and that infants , being dead without Baptism , were not onely depriued of the fruition of heauenly ioies , but were damned to the pit of hell , and to euerlasting torments ? And what man , religiously affected , will suspect , but that although S. Cyprian and the other African Bishops , assembled in a Councell , did , concerning the new baptizing of those who were already baptized by Hereticks , determine clean contrary to Cornelius and the rest of the Italian Bishops , yet they should not bee of the same faith in generall , and of the same holy Church whereof Cornelius was ? Saint Austen can thus write concerning Cyprian : Whereas that holy man Cyprian ( thinking otherwise of Baptisme then the matter was which was afterward handled , & with most diligent consideration established ) did remain in the Catholique Vnity ; both by the plentifulnesse of his charity , a recompence was made ; and by the sickle of his suffering , there was a purging . In another place hee saith , The authority of Cyprian doth not terrifie me , but the humility of Cyprian doth refresh mee . He meaneth , that if that worthy man had liued to haue seene more light in that argument , or to behold what the succeeding time had reuealed and concluded in that behalfe , hee would , in great humility and meeknes of heart , haue conformed himself , and yeelded vnto it : which may iustly seeme for a true defense of the Waldenses , Io. Wicklef , Iohn Hus , or any other seruant of God , who might seeme , in matters of small moment , to vary from vs. And thus I trust , that by this time it appeareth to euery one who will not wilfully cloze his eies , and stop his eares against an apparant truth , that God hath at all times had his Children holding the verity of Christian Religion , and not approouing of the filthy Superstitions and sacrilegious Idolatries of the abominable Antichrist of Rome : So that it is a most fond collection , that either the Popish Conuocation or Confusion are the right and vndoubted Spouse of Iesus Christ ; or else , that for one thousand yeeres together there was no Church in the world . They doat much vpon themselues , and on the opinion of their beauty , who , in such intolerable deformities , doe predicate and magnifie their Synagogue , as the vnspotted wife & mysticall body of our most blessed Sauiour . Truth it is , that , intending to blinde the ignorant , and to abuse the simple , they labored , by all externall pomp and shew , to giue to their hypocrisie & outward formality a settled opinion of pietie & sanctitie : and for that cause , there was no corner of the braine of man , or rather of men , in many Ages succeeding together , vnsought , to procure glory to that which in it selfe was very vnglorious . Their care therefore was , to conuert the eies of all persons on their externall hue , which was maruellously adorned and garnished to the sense with their Crosses set vp or carried before some Prelates , with the triple Crowne of their Popes , in the red Hats of their Cardinals , the precious attire of some in their Churches , their prodigious apparel abroad , the diuers color'd Couls of their Monks , such singing & chanting with Organes , such ringing of Bells , such trimming of Images , and many more such sensible matters , as that neither the Iewes nor the Gentiles had the like . And among al this , if true Religion in diuers were present , it is not to be maruelled at , if shee were scant seene , or if no notice were taken of her for her poore , and vntrimmed , or vngarnished hue , for her naked simplicity , and vnpainted integrity . It was the commendation giuen to Salomons Beloued , by whom the Church is represented , that the Kings daughter is all glorious within ; her beauty consisting of purity in faith , verity in doctrine , seuereness in behauiour , innocency , patience , and such like spirituall complements . And these are as much contemned in others , by the Antichristian Rabble , as they are neglected in themselues : whereas their externall pomp , on the contrary side , is as much despised by the Lord , as it is magnified in their fleshly and carnall imaginations . The Lord direct vs in his own waies , and call home such as wilfully , or by ignorance , haue gone astray ; that at length they may bee reduced to the sheepfold of Christ Iesus : to whom , with his Father and the blessed Spirit , be praise for euermore . Amen . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A17020-e50 L. 12. confess . c. 25. Erasm. Ad. * Pers. Sat. Nunc in decursu lampada trado , &c. Lucret. Et quasi currentes vitalem lampada tradunt . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Micah 7. 8. 2 Thes. 2. Notes for div A17020-e380 Sect. 1. a In Antid . Matt. 24. b De Rom. Pontif. 4. 4. Sect. 2. c Psalm 12. 1. d 1 Sam. 22. 18 e Esay 1. 5 , 6. f Esay 1. 29. g Ierem. 5. 1. h Ezek. 22. 30. i Mich. 7. 1. Sect. 3. k 1 King 19. 18 Rom. 11. 4. l Ezek. 9. 4. Apoc 7. 3. m 2 Tim. 2. 19 n 2 Kin. 21. 4 , 5 o 2 Kings 16. 11. p Verse ● . q 2 Kings 17. 29. r Esay 1. 1. Rom. 11. 4. t Psal. 13● . 14 u 2 Chro. 33. 4. Sect. 4. a Math. 23. 24. 2 Mach. 4. 8. 24. c. 11. 3. Ioseph de Bell. lud . 4. 5. & lib. 5. 9. b Iohn 11. 51. c Math. 2. ● . d Luke 12. 22 Rhem ●Annot , ibidem . e Math 26. 56. f Iohn 19. 25. Nich. de Clem. de Mater . Concil . g Acts 1. 13. Actes 8. 2. Sect. 5. i Luke 18. 8 k 2 Thes. 2. 3. Rhemes . in 2. Thess. 2. ● . m Ap●c . 12 ▪ 6. n In Prefat . super Apocal. o In Argument . Apocal & in Apoc. I. 1. p Rom. 4. 6. q Ioh● 11. 15. r Apoc. 12. 6. f Mark. 13. 22. t Apoc. 11. 2 , 3. & 12 ▪ 6. & 13. 5. & Dan. 7. 25 Sect. 6. u Math. 16. 18. w Tertull , exhort , ad chastit . x Math. 18. 20 a Phil. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b De Baptism . contra Donatist . 6. 4. idem spiritus 〈◊〉 ea dimit tit ( i. peccata ) quod datus est 〈◊〉 sanctis , &c. c Apoc. 13. 16. d Cap. 17. 2. & 21. e Cap. 8. 3. f S. Ambr. Epist. lib. 5. 31. g S. August . in Psal. 101. h Serm. 134. de Temp●re . i Hebr. 11. 1. Sect. 7. k Hiero aduersus Luciferi●nos . L Theod. Histor. Eccles. l. 2. 16. m In Catalog . Scripter . Eccles. n Bellar. de Pont. Rom. 4. 9. o Apoc. 12. 6. Sect. 8. p Camp. Ref. 10. quint. Euangely Pr●sessores . q Histor. l. 13. r In vita VVenceslai . Histor. Cochlei de Hussitis . Histor. de actis & scriptis Mar. Luther . L. 2. a Iobannes Fox . in Hist. Eccles. b Cochleus . l. 2. c Ibidem . L. 3. e Cochl . lib. 8. f L. 12. g Centur. 16. l. 1. 20. Sect. 9. h Cochleus l. 1. m lbide● . n In Tabulo Concilii ante Platine Hist. o Ioh. Fox . in Concil Constant. Histor. p Cochl . l. 4. Ibidem . Zisca ad locum quem cruci● appellant profectus est , ibi supra quadragint a millia vnorum ex●ere● icis conuenere . q Cochleus l. 5. & Pe●us Messias in Sigismundo . r L. 5. vix vlla Graeco● um , Hebreo●●que . aut Latin●ou●● Historia talem ref ducem qua●●s Zisca fui● . s L. 6. t Ibid. quis putasset quadraginta millia aequitum Germanicae nationis tam leuiter compelli posse &c. nolo hic temere iudicare sciens iudicia Dei esse oc . culta , &c. u In Tahul . ante Platin. x Sess. 13. y Lib. 4. Chronog . y L. 7. z L. 8. a Ibidem . Histor. Bohem. c. 35. & 50. 〈◊〉 . 130. c Ad Leonard●● Aretinum . d Mortē ala●ri vultu vt ait Poggius , non so 〈◊〉 perpeti , sed etiam appetiuisse visus est . C●cb . lib. 3. e L. 2. f L. 1. g L. 4. Nacti Episcopum Archi●episcopi Pragensis Suff aganeū ordinouerum per eum clericos , &c h Coch. lib. 5. Concil , Pragens . Hussitarum ita incipit , In nomine Dom. Amen . Incipit sancta Syn●dus hibita & rite celebrata anno 1421. sub Conrad . &c. Conradus Archiep . Pragensis cum Zisca & Hussitis scribit ●d principē , &c. i Ibidem . k L 8. Scholare die caesis Pragens . vtri ▪ tam sub vna quam sub ● traque communi●ca● es specie habilitate &c. pr●supposita ad s● cros crdine● psomoueantar & ordine●tur . l L. 10. m L. 11. n L. 2. Georgius Girziko de Cunstat , & Podiebrat quem Acneas Poggi siratium v●●●re solebat , vnctus est in Regem Bohemis , &c. post , 〈◊〉 vna defi●sset labes Hussititae sect● , in●er optimo● reges haud immeritò commemorari possit . o Ibidem . p Apud Plat. q Cochl . l. 12. Sect. II. m Hist. Bohem. c. 50. n Ep. 130. o Coch. Hist. lib. 1. p L. 2. q L. 3. r L. 4. f L. 5. Zisca vno impetu● insignes ●asilicas , & am pla monastéria quae in bonorem beat● Maria , &c dedicata erant , disiecit tanquom non sit fas alteri , quam soli Deo basilicas , a●t templa consecrare . t Artic. 57. u Artic. 55. Sect. 12. Anno 1517. a Respons . ad Doctor●m August . b VValdensium confessio in fasciculo rerum expetend . & fugiend . c Seiden . li. 16. d Luea● Os●ander . lib. 1. c. 8. e Oratio ad Leo●●● decimum . f Calamitatum . 3 Guicciar ● . lib. 3. h In Ps. 52. i Catalog . testi●● veritatu , lib. 19. Sect. 13. k Co●●● em●●titam donationē Const. l De ann●tis non soluendis . m De Reform . Eccles. n cap. 3. o c. 4. p c. 6. In Hypocritas libellus . Oratio od clerū Coloniensem . Decem grauami . na Germaniae . L. 19. Sect. 14. In Iohn 24. Histor. Bohem. c. 35. Hist. de Huss●tis , lib. 1. Scripsit mihi quidā ex Anglia Epis● opus esse sibi ad●uc bodie duo maxima volum●a VVitlefi quae mol● sua videantur ●quari opera beati , August . L. 1. Hus forni ca●us est spiritu aliter cum ali enigenis plurimis cum VViclefistis cum Dulcinistis , &c. L 2. a L. 3. b L. 6. c L. 2. Miser Hus optauit animam suā fore ihi est anima VViclefi . S●ss . 8. L. 2. f Multa g●autora ●●diderim esse VViclefi tbrmeta , quā●uit apud infero● vel scele ratissim●rum hominum , Iudae prod● o●s Christi & Neronus ●●irstianorum persecu . ●●is , &c. L. 2. Sess. 8. Respons ad 18. Artic. VViclefi in f●●cic rerum expe●end . a In fine Artic . 10. V●rg . Aen●ad . L. 18. Sect. 15. Apolog ▪ Hicra●c . c. 1. Ex Regist. G. Courtney . Ad Cancell . Ox. Ad Arthiepi●c Cant. & Cancell . Ox. Anno. 5. Rich. 2. c. 5. In manu magistri Wirley . In fine R. Richard● 3. In Arch uis Coll●dg . Bali●l . Vid. 10. Fox . in vit● Wicklef . A 〈◊〉 . Richara●● 2. Sub rege Hen. 4. L. 2. in literis Reg. Henrici 4. Anno 1406. Octobr. 5. In operib . I. Hus. Anno 1476. Sect. 16. * in a Ploughmans tale . The Apostle . * which Papists say , he hath of heauen gate . * as the Pope . Ex registro Episcops Herefor● Contra 18. articul . Wicklef . In articul . 11. & 12. Sect. 17. A● . 1400. sub Reg. He● . 4. Sub reg . Henrie . 5. Sub. Hen. 6. Sect. 18. Greg. 11. Greg. 12. Catal. testium ●esitatis .. l. 18. Defensor pacis . Petrus Messias in Ludo●●co . Catalogus ●estium verit●●● . l. 18. Ibid. ex . Hen. de Erford . Histor. Hussit . l. 2. Epis. 20. et in poe●i italic● . In appendice ad libros de Rom. pontifice . c. 20. Genebrard , Chron. l. 4. Anno 1327. Catal. ●estium veritatis . l. 18. Academ . les . Christ. Clas . 15 De auseribilitate Pap● ab ecclesia . Sect. 19. Hist. Bohem. c. 35. Chron. l. 4. Catal. testium veritatis . l. 15. In Pr●sat . general . Controuers . L. 1. c. 19. Hist. l. 12. L. 9. L. 10. Ibid. Mat. Paris i● Guliel . cōquaest . Contin . hist. de gestis Anglor . lib. 3. cap. 7. Malmis . l. 3. Chron. l. 4. Index in Bertram resp . ad Dan. Til●s . fol. 158. La. sainct . Mess● de clar . l. 2. De consider . ad Eug●n . l. 2. 8. Ser. 61. in Cant. ep . 190. de grat . & lib. arbitrio . Ser. 1. de septem misericordi●s . 1 Cor. 3. 11 Degrat . & libero arbit●io . Sect. 21. Iohn ● . 8. 1 Kings 19. 18 2. Pet. 2. 8. Iam. 1. 27. Os●rius l. 3. degestis Eman●el . Li. 9. Dam ▪ à Goes . de mori● . Ae●●i●●um . Sect. 22. Apoc. 17. 18. In Hen. 3. Ibidem . Ibidem . Lincoln . Epist. Math●● Paris in H. ● . 3. Ibidem . Houede● in parte 2. Pla●in . in Paschael . 1. Pap. Mas. on in Bo● . 2. In Histo● . Eccle. sias . in catal . script . Brit. L●ur . Humsr. I●suit●sm . part . Sect. 23. R●●ion . 10. In Rom. 11. 33. Ann● 159● . Vid. Epist. Beza ad Stuckium . Mat. 26. 65. Acts 24. 14 ▪ Sect. 24. Acts 16. 20. and 17. 7. 2 Cor. 12. 16 Eus. ●ccl● . hist. l. 4. 7. * L. 5. 1. Socrat. 1. 20. Theod. eccl . hist. l. 1. 30. Infasciculo rer● expetend . Conses . Walden . Cocleus histor . Hussit . l. 2. Cum articulos istos nunquam tenuerim quos falsi te●●es c●●ra me 〈◊〉 , se●●●ont aria tenuer●m , ●oc●erim , 〈◊〉 rimque , 〈◊〉 praedicau●rim , &c. L. 8. Sl●idencomment . l. 8. Certain Articles or forcible rea●ons at Antwerp , 1600 Sect. 25. In Rom 11. 4. In Fox eccles . Story . Diuin . ●istitut . l. 7. c. 14. Aug. Ep●st . 48. Ep. 106. & 28 Con● . Carth. in Cyp. oper . De bapt . cont . Donatis . L. 1. L. 2. Sect. 26. Prefat . catal . testium veritat . Psal. 45. 13. 
A30523	----	A faithful testimony concerning the true worship of God what it is in it self, and who are the true vvorshippers : in opposition to all the false worship in this nation, which is idolatry, which is discovered in its foundation, and in its manifestation, not to be ever commanded of God, or practised by his apostles and saints, but it is declared to consist chiefly of such things and practises as had their first beginning and ordination in the Church of Rome ... and this is written for a general good to all such as are worshipping in temples made with hands / by E.B. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A30523 of text R36302 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B6002). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 34 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A30523 Wing B6002 ESTC R36302 15642966 ocm 15642966 104275 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A30523) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 104275) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1182:3) A faithful testimony concerning the true worship of God what it is in it self, and who are the true vvorshippers : in opposition to all the false worship in this nation, which is idolatry, which is discovered in its foundation, and in its manifestation, not to be ever commanded of God, or practised by his apostles and saints, but it is declared to consist chiefly of such things and practises as had their first beginning and ordination in the Church of Rome ... and this is written for a general good to all such as are worshipping in temples made with hands / by E.B. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. [2], 14 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons ..., London : 1659. Reproduction of original in the Huntington Library. eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. Protestantism -- Controversial literature. A30523 R36302 (Wing B6002). civilwar no A faithful testimony concerning the true worship of God: what it is in it self, and who are the true vvorshippers. In opposition to all the Burrough, Edward 1659 6781 3 0 0 0 0 0 4 B The rate of 4 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-01 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-02 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2004-02 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Faithful Testimony Concerning the true WORSHIP OF GOD : What it is in it self , and who are the true VVorshippers . In opposition to all the false worship in this Nation , which is Idolatry , which is discovered in its foundation , and in its manifestation , not to be ever commanded of God , or practised by his Apostles and Saints ; but it is declared to consist chiefly of such things and practises as had their first beginning and ordination in the Church of Rome , whereby the hypocrisie of this generation doth appear , in denying and crying against the Papists Idolatries , and yet are found in the practise of the same thing in their Church , Ministry , and Worship , which were first instituted by the Pope's Authority . And this is written for a general good to all such as are worshipping in Temples made with hands ; By E. B. LONDON , Printed for Thomas Simmons , at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate , 1659. A faithful Testimony concerning the true Worship of God , what it is in it self , and who are the true Worshippers , &c. FOrasmuch as there is in the world a great controversie among people concerning the Worship of God , one crying , This is the right Worshp : Another , That is the right Worship ; and People in these Nations are divided about the Worship of God , and divers one from another in their performances and practices of Worship , one sort worshipping after this manner , another after that , and there is great strife through the whole Nation about this matter , and a great dis-satisfaction among people , which is the right Worship , and who are the right Worshippers , and thousands are desiring after the right Worship of God , and to become Worshippers of him as he requires : Therefore now it is upon me to shew unto all the World what the true Worship of God is in it self , and who are his true Worshippers . First , The Worship of God in it self is this ; It is a walking with God , and a living with him in converse and fellowship , in spirit and truth ; for he is onely worshipped therein ; and to do the truth , and speak the truth ; This is the true Worship of God , where the mind is guided with the spirit of Truth , and the presence of the Lord felt at all times , and his fear in the hearts of people , and his Councel stood in , and his Covenant felt , which unites to the Lord in spirit : This is the true Worship of God , and it is without respect of times or things , And now none upon earth can thus worship God , but who are changed and renewed in heart and mind , and born of the spirit , and led thereby , where the body of sin and death is put off , such as are redeemed out of the world , and out of all its wayes and nature , such onely can worship God in the spirit and in the truth , and such is the Father seeking to worship him now in this present age ; and there is never a one upon Earth that can worship God as he requires , who remains unchanged , and are in the transgression , unrenewed and unconverted , such cannot worship the true and living God , but that which they perform and practise as the pretence of his Worship , is idolatry and abomination , and the Lord hath not required it at their hands ; for none can walk with God , nor have unity with him , but who are renewed and changed ; nor none can do the truth , and speak the truth in all things , but such who are led by the Spirit of Truth , and such are in the Covenant of God , and true Worshippers of him , and all that is contrary , is not the Worship of God , but Idolatry , as I have said . And now as concerning this Worship practised in England in these Steeplehouses , Churches , ( so called ) it is not the worship of the living God , but Superstition and Idolatry , for people hath not learned it by the teachings of the Spirit , neither doth the Spirit lead them therein , but it stands in form without power , and in the inventions and traditions of the Fathers , and there is not in it the manifest presence of God , neither do you Worshippers meet with the Lord , nor enjoy his pure life and presence in your practises ; and the substance of your Worship ( as it is now practised ) is made up of Inventions some part of your own , and some part brought along from the Church of Rome ; And is it not great hypocrisie in you to profess a denial of the Church of Rome , and yet be found practising some of the same things as your Worship , which the Church of Rome first instituted and practised as her Worship ? Shall we instance unto you some particular things ? Was it not by the Authority of the Church of Rome , that these houses in which you worship , which you call Churches , were first set up and made worshipping places for them ? and is it not a little while since that the Mass , and the old Popish stuff was therein exercised with as great zeal towards God , ( if not with as good sincerity ) as you practice yours at this day ? And are there not the very signs and symptoms of the Romish Idolatry yet upon these Houses , being full of Images on the Walls , and on the Pillars , and on the Glass-Windows and Crosses about them , and many other things which were Popish inventions , as also the names given unto them , and consecrated Bells in them , and such like stuff ? And was it not a little while since that there was the Altars , and the Rails , and the Font , and other such like things which lately were broken down ? But however though something there may be altered , and changed , and converted to another use , and something taken away , and other inventions brought in , instead thereof , yet still they are the same Houses which you worship your God in , which Houses were set up by the Authority of the Pope , and there remains yet the Popes sign and symptome of the Romish Church upon them ; and these Houses you call your Churches , and thousand of thousands of blind ignorant people esteeming and respecting in their minds of these places more then of any other , supposing them to be more holy and that other places are not so good to worship in ; alas poor , blind , ignorant people , that deceives your own souls in the traditions & inventions of man , which you live in the practise of , supposing it to be the very Worship of God , which is no other in it self but Idolatry , and you Idolaters ; for doth not all unconverted people , and unrighteous people , such who are not taught of the Lord , nor led by his Spirit , but daylie rushes into iniquity , and into evil , are not such found Worshippers here in Steeplehouses , conforming themselves to these things , and these practises ? And can such worship God ? Or is God worshipped by such ? I tell you nay , the Lord God is pure , and they that worship him , must be sanctified , and led by his Spirit which leadeth into all truth : But now as concerning your present practises which your Worship consists of , they are not such as ever the Lord instituted , but such as men hath set up in their own wills and wisdom , and not in the Lords . As for your sprinkling of Infants , which is a chief practise of your Worship , was not this first ordained at Rome ? Read the Records . And was it not a Popish invention which you are thus zealously reforming , as if it were indeed required of the Lord ? Can the unconverted and unregenerated be truly baptized into the faith of Christ ? No ; but the unconverted and unregenerated are partakers of your baptism into the faith which you profess : There was no such practise in the Christians Church before the Apostacy ; but when the Apostacy came in , then came up these inventions and imitations which you practise as the Worship of God , whenas he never required it , neither did his Saints and his Apostles ever give your example for it . And by it , nor in it , God is not worshipped ; neither is it in it self , nor as practised by you , any part of the Worship of God , but stands in the inventions of man , and is after their traditions , and not after the Commandments of the Lord . And as for your singing of David's Experiences in the form and manner as you do , practising it as another main part of your Worship ; this is the same with the former , neither ever commanded of the Lord , nor ( in the course and manner as you do it ) was it ever practised by the Saints of old ; and is it any better then a Popish Invention ? For was the Nation in any better state then Popery , when that practise was first instituted and begun to be performed ; you your selves will confess that it was in the time of darkness , and through the ordination of the Bishops and Prelates , whom you your selves say were little better then Papists in their worship and practise ; and yet this you practise at this day as a part of your Worship , which hath no better beginning then as I have said , and from them you have received it , to wit , from the Bishops and Prelates ; yea , the chief part of your Worship consists of the performances of such things as you have received traditionally from them , and from ●ome , for all these things they instituted . And as concerning your Ministry , is it any other with that , then with these particulars as I have mentioned ? Is it not the same Ministry in substance , though in some particulars altered , as was in the dayes of Popery and Prelacy ? Have not your Ministers the same Call to their Ministry , and the same practise in their Ministry , and the same Maintenance at this day , as was in generations past , when this Nation was under the Cloud of darkness and ignorance , as your selves will confess ? Are not they made Ministers now by natural learning , receiving ordination from man , through the attainments of such Arts , and Sciences , & Degrees , through natural learning and humane policy , not having their Ministry by the gift of the Holy Ghost , no more then the Papists and Prelates had before them , who were made Ministers by the same power , and after the same manner as these are : And it was the Church of Rome , and by the Popish Authority , that Colledges and Schools , to make Ministers by them , were first ordained and set up ; and as that Ministry was sent forth in the time of Popery , by the same way and means ( generally as to substance ) are your Ministers now sent forth , though in some particulars differing in matter of form , yet the same for substance : But Christs Ministers in the time of the true Church , were not thus sent forth , but had received power from on High , and the gift of the Holy Ghost , whereby they were made able Ministers , and not by any other thing , nor by any such means or way as your Ministers now are set up and established ; and this Ministry is differing from the true Ministry which Christ sent forth , and is not according , but contrary in all things ; and it is not the Ministry of God which brings people to God ; but by this Ministry people are not converted , but such it is that the true Prophet cryed against ; They have run , saith the Lord , and I have not sent them , therefore they shall not profit the people at all . And as for this maintenance of the Ministry of the Church of England , is it not the same as was in the days of Popery & Prelacy ? Was it not by the Popes Authority that Tythes were first established & set up to be the maintenance of his Ministry ? & did not the Romish Church first ordain that the people should give the tenth to the use of Religion , and to maintain their Ministry ? If you search the Records , you will find it so . And was it not the very practice of the Papists and Prelates Ministers , to have hire , and great sums of money by the year , and stipends , and large benefits for preaching ; and the same things are practised by these Ministers , which they have borrowed from the Papists and Prelates which went before them ; for are not these Ministers maintained by Tythes as the Popes Ministers were ? And have they not hire and great sums of money by the year , or quarterly , even as the Papists and Prelates had ? Wherefore it is plain , that the maintenance of your Ministers is the very same for substance as theirs were that went before you , which you your selves say were Idolaters ; and if they were Idolaters , how can you Ministers be free which doth practice the very same things , unto the very same end ? And doth not the Priests of this generation far exceed the Papists and Prelates ? Was there ever in generations past such casting people into prison , and spoyling peoples goods , as is at this day through the means of these Priests , and all about their maintenance , and for their Tythes and Hire , and yearly stipends , and quarterly gain ▪ Did ever the Papists or Prelates worse in this particular , with any people that denyed them wages , then these do that denied ●hem Oh! great blindness and ignorance is over your hearts , and great hypocrisie among your Ministers , who profess a denial and dissenting from the Church of Rome , and cryes against them as Hereticks , and that they are in ignorance , and yet practises the very same things ; their Call is the very same to their Ministry , and their Maintenance the same , and practise in many things the very same as theirs were , which they seem to deny ; and this is great hypocrisie , to cast out and kill their persons , and yet to uphold in many things their practise , relating to their Worship and their Ministry : Oh abominable Idolatry ! the hand of the Lord is against it . But this is not the way that Christs Ministers were maintained , they had no such hire nor great sums of money , nor yearly Tythes , as these Ministers have through the Popes Institution ; but into whatsoever house they entered , that was worthy , they might eat such things as were set before them , and the Apostles might freely reap carnal things , where they had sown spiritual things ; but this was after another manner , and after another nature ; for if they had not that , yet did they not cast men into prison , and spoyle their goods that would not give it them , as this generation of Teachers do ; and the Lord God is risen to confound this Worship and this Ministry , which is Idolatry , and this Church , which is but a false feigned imitation , and he will establish his true Worship that is in spirit and in truth ; and his true Ministry that is by the gift of the Holy Ghost , and his true Church ; and this shall be brought to pass in his day . But again , there is another practise which you have , which the Church of Rome , and the Prelates had , ( your predecessors ) if any come in the Name of the Lord to declare against you , and against your abominations , to cry against your sin , and cry repentance among you , that you may be converted to God , this you account a great Transgression , and persecutes them that doth it , by imprisoning , and whipping , and stocking , and by imposing great fines upon them , and causing them to suffer cruel things , and this did the Papists and Prelates in like manner as you do , if any was moved to cry against them , they indeed rewarded them even as you do at this day , the same thing you do against such as are moved of the Lord to come among you ; and herein you succeed them , and brings forth the same persecution in your Churches , as they did in their Churches ; and this is the defence of your Church , and of your Ministry , Carnal Weapons , Imprisonment , and Whipping , and Stocking , and causing the bodyes of people to suffer through cruelty and injustice , and by this means is your Church & Ministry defended & preserved , or otherwise it would presently fall , as not being able to continue nor resist , nor gain-say the spirit & power of God , which now is risen to oppose them , if they had not carnal Laws , and Earthly Powers , and Gaols , and Houses of Correction to defend themselves by : And is this the Church of Christ ? And is this Christs Ministry that have need of such weapons as these ? The Apostles nor true Churches never did thus , neither sent people to prison that opposed them , nor had such cruelty to execute upon the bodyes of people , though many did oppose them out of wickednesse , but the Spirit and Authority of the Lord did defend them from all their Enemies . But your Church and Ministry is manifest to be another then that was , and to be defended by another means , even by the same means that the Papists and Prelates of old were of a long time defended by ; but when the measure of these things are fulfilled , they will come to an end : as the measure of that generations iniquity was fulfilled which went before you , so in the Lords season will your measure be fulfilled , and the Lords people shall be free , and all bonds of iniquity broken . And thus it is manifest that this Church and Ministry succeeds the Church of Rome and her Ministers , far more then the Church of Christ and its true Ministers , & to that it is not equal in any thing , but to the Church of Rome it is comparable in many things ; so that it is manifest , that this Church and Ministry are not quite another then the Church and Ministry of Rome , but such as hath dissented from them , and are truly sprung out of that root , and is the same still in substance , though differing in some practises , having cast out some old inventions , and brought in some new , but as I have said , remains still the same in nature and substance , though dissented in some particulars , yet succeedeth in many particulars , as I may shew more fully hereafter . And though you bare the Name , and stile your selves , The reformed Churches , you mean , reformed from the Church of Rome ; but how are you reformed ? but by some visible appearances , and not in the ground , having put off but some of her garments , and remains the same body for substance , in nature and matter , though differing onely in appearances ? For the Church which is the true Church of Christ , is not thus reformed , onely changed in part , and altered in degrees , but the true Church denies the Church of Rome in her very being and ground , and in all her practises whatsoever ; for though many Sects have risen one from another , yet all the same for substance , onely differing in particulars : But as for you to whom this particular is written , that worship God in Steeplehouses , you are not so much differing from the Church of Rome , as many others are , which are not true Churches neither ; but the Lord God is now gathering his people ; wherefore come out of your Idol-worship , and Idol-Temples , for God dwells not in them , nor is not worshipped there , but he dwells and walks in his Saints , and is worshipped in spirit and in truth , and his day is dawned , and his glory is risen , and he will confound this Church and Ministry which bears the marks of the Romish Whore , & hath her symptoms and characters remaining upon them unto this day , as it is manifest . And though some may object and say , That God commanded a Temple to be builded for the worship of his Name , and Ordinances to be practised in the time of the old Covenant . To which I do say , Yea it was so , a Temple was builded by Solomon for the seed of the Iews to worship in , and to come to sacrifice to the Lord in , and there was an outward worship and ordinances ; But it is many hundred years since this Temple was destroyed , and worship and ordinances thrown down , which God once commanded , and his people once practised ; and Christ the life , the power , and wisdom of God , was the substance thereof , and unto whom he was made manifest , and in whom he was revealed in the spirit , they utterly renounced and denyed the Temple , and the Worship therein , though God once had commanded it ; and the Saints after the manifesting of Christ to them in spirit , and after that the Holy Ghost was given , we do not find through all the Churches of the Saints , that they worshipped in the Temple of the Iews , but witnessed against it , and said that God dwelt not in Temples made with hands , neither was he worshipped in Temples made with hands , but in the spirit , and in the truth their worship consisted , & therefore were persecuted ; but they bare witnesse against the Temple , & the worship , & those Ordinances which God once had commanded , & which once his people practised , though it was to the peril of their lives ; but as for these Temples , and these Ordinances , and this worship which are now on foot , they were never brought forth by any Ordination or Commandment of God , but the foundation of them was the inventions of men , and mens traditions taught them , and not the spirit of the Lord , and therefore against those things , those Temples , and those Ordinances , and VVorships , much reason have we to cry against them all , as being neither sign nor substance of good , but wholly inventions of men . The Jews Temple and Ordinance was signs of good things to come , and when the substance was come , the Saints denyed the shadows and the figures ; but as for these , they are denyed wholly , as being Idolatry and Abomination from the beginning to the end of them ; for as I have shown , these things ( which are the matter of which your Worship and Ordinance doth consist ) had their rise and beginning in the days of darknesse and ignorance , since the Apostacy came in , and so in the Name and Authority of the Lord , we do declare against them , even against your Temples and whole Worship , to the intent to bring you to the true Worship , that is in spirit and in truth , and that you might know your bodyes the Temples of God , and that he might dwell in you , and walk in you , according as he hath promised in the New Covenant . Wherefore all people , awake and come out of your Idolatry , and Idolatrous Worships , seperate your selves , touch no more of it , that the Lord may receive you , and that you may come into his Covenant , which is life and peace for your souls , for in those Worships , and Temples , and all your practises therein , you have not true peace with the Lord , nor the refreshments from his pure presence , but sin and death reigns amongst you , and great ignorance is over your hearts , and Idolatry corrupts your minds , and the Lord hath been forgotten by you , dayes without number ; God is not well-pleased , neither hath any delight in your Worship ; for your worship of him , and fear towards him , is but taught by the precepts of men , and by the traditions of the Fathers in the days of Popery , and if ever he opens your eyes , you will see it , for it is with the humble and contrite in heart that the Lord dwels , him that crembleth at the word of the Lord , whose heart is right in his sight , and hath learned his judgements and fear , and such as are changed and renewed , and born of the seed of God , and begotten by his powerful Word , such are the true worshippers whom the Lord is seeking , and such will he find to worship him . And whereas there is a great cry amongst you , and among many people at this day , about deceivers , and being deceived , and there are many deceivers , you say , and your cry is one to another , Take heed you be not deceived by false Teachers and false Doctrine . This is the cry of Parents to Children , and of Children to Parents , and of Masters to Servants , and of Servants to Masters , and chiefly , it is the cry of your Priests to the people , Take heed you be not deceived , &c. Now to all this I do say , That there are many deceivers , and many are deceived , this is certainly true , and plainly manifest ; but now to shew what a deceiver is , and what it is to be deceived , and who it is that are deceived . First , That is a deceiver , that person , that spirit , or that thing , that leadeth , or inticeth the minds of people into something , to do , or practise , or speak something which the Lord by his spirit doth not lead to . I say , That which leads the creature to take up a joy , or a delight , or a happiness in something of this world which is under the Sun , to place confidence or felicity in such a thing ; that which thus leadeth or draweth the mind , whether it be person , or spirit , it is a deceiver , and deceiveth the soul ; and he , or they that doth follow this , and give up themselves into the obedience of it , to do , or speak something that is contrary to God , or which his spirit doth not lead unto , nor guide in , this person is deceived of the presence of the Lord , and of the comfort , and joy , and happiness that is in him , and hath pleasure , and joy in something of the Creation that is not of him , but besides him , and this person is deceived , and in deceit , who hath placed a joy , and happinesse , and confidence in some creature or thing that is not perfectly the Lord ; and another spirit besides the Spirit of the Lord , hath seated its self in the heart , and taken possession of the mind , and the mind and heart is thereby captivated by that way , in the works and pleasures of this world ; and this is a deceived estate ; and thus much of a deceiver , and a deceiving in the ground , in that declared . But now you that are crying one to another , Be not deceived , Be not deceived ; And you not such as are deceived already , and that lyes wallowing in the deceit , and vanity , and evil of this world ? For while sin hath power over you , and that spirit that is not of God doth lead you , you are deceived ; and thus it is with you , being unchanged and unrenewed in mind and heart ; are not you deceived ? For you want the feeling of the presence , and of the comfort of the Lord God , and you are deceived of that , for that you have not , and another thing possesseth your mind , the joy and pleasure of this world , and in your exercise spiritual and temporal , the spirit that is of this world doth lead you , and guide you , the spirit of unrighteousnesse that leadeth contrary to him ; and can you be otherwayes deceived , or more deceived ? For you are without God a ready , and wants his peace , and the inheritance of life eternal that is in him , you want the possession thereof , and you are following dead Idols and vanities which steals away your mind , whereby it is manifest that you are deceived ; For all people upon the Earth that are not led by the spirit into all truth , that hath not received the promise of the Father , they are all deceived , and cannot be more deceived then they are ; and so is the cry in general among people , if any one forsake and deny their way of Worship and Religion , and Profession , be it of what manner and nature , soever , presently there is a cry , ( chiefly by the Priests ) Take heed you be not deceived , and you are in heresie and error , and such like : Thus have the Papists cryed against them that have dissented from them , and the Prelates cryed the same , and now you cry the same to them that dissent from you ; but your zeal is not so much against Heresie and Error , simply so , as it is to have your own Sect and Worship upheld , and against them that doth dissent from you ; and it hath been Antichrists way since the apostacy , since the days of the Apostles , to cry Heresie , and Error , and you are deceived , to all that did decline and dissent from him ; for you may read in the Scriptures , Power was given to the Beast to compell all to worship him , and all that would not , he made war against , and had power to kill them . And thus have the Papists done , warred against them that denyed their Church ; and thus did the Prelates , and thus do you , your cry is , Heresie , and Error , and they are deceived who do forsake your Church , and your Ministry ; and this cry have you learned of your fore-fathers , the Romish Church . But cease all sorts of people to cry that others are deceived , and that others are in Error , and see how your selves are led with the spirit of unrighteousness , and blindness , and ignorance , and a cloud of Error is over you , and between you and the Son of God , who is appearing now in Majesty and Renown , to exalt his Name over all the Earth ; and Antichrists way you have been in , who would have all to bow under his Power , unto his Worship ; but now the eyes of people are opened , and Life , and Righteousness , and Truth it self is sprung forth over all the Clouds of Darkness and Error . Your worship is to the unknown God , and him you ignorantly worship after the traditions of men , and not after the Commandments of God , for the tradition of the Fathers is seated in you above the Witness , and blinds the eye , and quencheth the spirit ; your old customs , traditions and forms , and your exercise therein , feeds that part which is carnal , and answers that in others , and your worship which is out of the spirit of God , answers not the spirit of God in others , to convert any truly to the living God ; and the Lord will destroy your worship , and confound it , and no more is the Lord worshipped in Steeplehouses , they are lest desolate of Gods presence , and no more in dayes , and times , and things , but they that worship must be in the spirit changed by it , and led by it into the truth ; so when the Lord doth open your eyes , you will see the worship of God to be another thing then you suppose it ; you cannot be educated naturally in the worship of God , nor learn it by traditions , for it stands onely in the spirit , and is taught by the spirit unto all them that are born of the spirit ; and who comes to be born of that , are the true worshippers of God , in which the Father is well pleased . And as for your worship in Steeplehouses , God hath no delight in , he savoureth it not , but it is an abomination to him , it is not pleasing to him , because you be out of his spirit , and worships after your own traditions , and not after his spirit ; and this worship hath stood all this long time of Antichrist , while the Whore and the Beast hath ruled over Nations , and so one tradition after another hath been brought in , and one false Worship hath risen out of another , and what people hath had , it hath been by tradition , and not from the immediate spirit of God and so the true God hath not been worshipped in his spirit ; and now all the world hath been pleading for their traditions , and they be in respect above the Commandments of God , among ye that worship in Steeplehouses ; you are even mad against them that cryes against the Steeplehouses , and pleads the Antiquity of your Worship , and of your Traditions and Ordinances , now they are ancient , even as ancient as since the false Prophets and Antichrist came in , and put on the sheeps clothing , but inwardly are wolves ; these killed the life , and slew the Prophets , and they set up inventions of their own ; and your traditions and worships are as ancient as since power was given to the Beast over kindreds & peoples ; & the Lord God is bringing down your worship , the original of which , came up when Antichrist went into the world , as you may read in Iohn's Epistle , and so you may plead Antiquity , yet not as ancient as the true Church is , for when the true Churches were apostatized , then came up your worship , & your many traditions ; & this hath been while the woman hath been fled into the wilderness , & the Manchild caught up to God , which when the woman returns again , your Worship and Ordinance will be overthrown , & the true worship again established , & liberty ; but first you must know the spirit to teach you , before you can worship in it , & the spirit must purifie your hearts , & make them clean , before you can offer to God an acceptable sacrifice ; for your sacrifices are not acceptable , but they are stained & polluted in the sight of the Lord , who now hath beheld what you are a doing , & you are in that which his soul hath no pleasure in , & in the day of your visitation the witness in your consciences shall answer it ; so you are to know God by his spirit , before you can worship him ; the word of the Lord must be felt in your hearts as a fire , & as a hammer , & you must be created a-new , & have another spirit , before ye can worship God . So all you false worshippers , you are called that you may return , & may come into the true worship , which is in the commandment of God , and not the traditions of men , and in that Law written in the heart , is God known , who worketh mans salvation , and which leadeth in the true and perfect worship , of the true and living God , where the Lord is all in all . Therefore return , why will you dye and perish in your iniquities ? A lamentation is taken up for you , O! why will you perish through neglecting your own salvation ? Come into the spirit , and into the truth , that you may worship God , and be accepted of him , who is now appeared in power and great glory , to gather his people to himself . This is to go abroad among all people who are worshipping in Temples made with hands , & who are under this Ministry , & are of this Church aforementioned , that they may come to consider , and see the error of their way , of their worship , and of their ministry , and this is a visitation from the Lord unto them all , by a friend unto all your souls . The End . 
A32852	----	Mr. Chillingworth's judgment of the religion of Protestants of Scripture the only rule, of differences among Protestants, of using force in matters of religion &c. : with a preface to the reader giving the reason of publishing these passages. Religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation. Selections Chillingworth, William, 1602-1644. 1680 Approx. 32 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 6 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A32852 Wing C3886 ESTC R29216 10861593 ocm 10861593 46138 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A32852) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 46138) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1419:36) Mr. Chillingworth's judgment of the religion of Protestants of Scripture the only rule, of differences among Protestants, of using force in matters of religion &c. : with a preface to the reader giving the reason of publishing these passages. Religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation. Selections Chillingworth, William, 1602-1644. [2], 7 p. Printed for Francis Smith, London : 1680. Extracts from the author's The religion of Protestants a safe way to salvation. Reproduction of original in the Harvard University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2005-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-10 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-04 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2006-04 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Mr. Chillingvvorth's Judgment OF THE RELIGION OF PROTESTANTS . OF SCRIPTURE THE Only Rule . OF DIFFERENCES AMONG PROTESTANTS . OF USING FORCE IN Matters of Religion , &c. WITH A Preface to the Reader , giving the Reason of Publishing these Passages . LONDON , Printed for Francis Smith , at the Elephant and Castle in Cornhil , near the Royal Exchange . 1680 : TO THE READER . HE that is arrived at such a degree of wickedness , that his Principles will allow him to equivocate in the most solemn Asseverations , and to put on any person or shape for the carrying on his Designs , has thereby a great advantage over the common people , who being more honest and simple , can scarce think it possible , that men , professing God and Religion , should admit of principles and practices so diametrically contrary : and men that are prepossessed with prejudices of envy , ill-will , or the like , against their Neighbours , do readily embrace those mens suggestions against these , how false and groundless soever they be . Hence it is , that our Popish Enemies having no other way to save themselves from the Demerits of their Hellish Plots , do very industriously by Pamphlets and otherwise labour to beget and encrease enmity among dissenting Protestants , And they so far prevail , that notwithstanding the destructin designed by them against Protestants , yet some have greater enmity and bitterness towards those that differ from them either in lesser points of Religion , or in sentiments about civil Matters , than against the Papists themselves . Which may be perceived , not only in common converse , but even in the Pulpit it self : whence I must confess , I have sometimes heard ( though not in my own Parish ) discourses so full of rancor and bitterness against dissenting Protestants , that I could not but greatly bewail the ill tendencies thereof , and at the same time was glad my Children and Servants were not there , that they might not learn by such Rhetorical Invectives to malign their Neighbours , instead of loving their Enemies , as Christ has commanded . These men pretending great zeal for the Government and Church of England ( as those Members of the last long Parliament also did , who were expelled thence for being Papists ) will difficulty allow any other but such as themselves to be at all Protestants . Wherefore I thought it would be of service to Protestantism , or Reformed Christianity , to mind my Country-men of the Judgment of the Learned and Judicious Mr. Chillingworth concerning the Religion of Protestants , the Differences among them , the use of Force and Compulsion in Religion , private judgment of Conscience , in dissent from publick , and some other matters controverted between Protestants and Papists , which I have collected out of his Book , Intituled , The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation : and which I hope will be of the greater prevalency with some , not only for the great strength of reason and judgment found therein : but moreover , for that Mr. Chillingworth had himself been once of the Roman Church , and had therefore experience as well as judgment to guide him in these matters . He wrote also in the year 1637 , which was before the following unnatural War. He was not only of the Church of England himself , which he defended against the Papists : but his Book had the approbation of the then Vice-Chancellor , and both the Kings and Margret Professor's of Divinity in the University of Oxon. the very chief men in Office there . Their Approbation take in their own words , Englished for the sake of those that know not Latine . Let this Book be committed to the Press , the Title whereof is , The Religion of Protestants ● a safe way to Salvation . In which there is nothing contrary to good manners , to the Doctrine and Discipline asserted in the Church of England . Rich. Bayley , Vice-Canc . Oxon. I have read over this Book , the Title of which is , The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation . In which I find nothing contrary to the Doctrine and Discipline of the English Church ; but very many things which notably illustrate the Orthodox Faith , and do acutely , clearly and modestly dissipate the contrary Glosses : Jo. Prideaux , S. T. P. Regius Oxon. I Samuel Fell , publick Professor of Theology in the University of Oxford , and Ordinary Lecturer of Lady Margaret , Gountess of Richmond , have read over the Book , the Title of which is , The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation : In which I find nothing contrary to the Doctrine or Discipline of the Church of England ; or to good manners , but many things strongly and modestly discussed against the adversaries of our Church , and the Catholick Truth , which he happily defends . Dated Oct. 14. anno 1637. Samuel Fell. This Book was Dedicated by Mr. Will. Chillingworth to his Majesty , Charles I. and is generally approved by Learned Protestants , as the ablest Defence of the Protestants Cause against the Papists , that is any where extant . There was another Edition of this Book , Licensed by G. Stradling , ann . 1663 , Chaplain to the then Arch-Bishop of Cant. in these words Englished : I have read over this Book , the Title of which , The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation : also nine Sermons lately added : In all which I find nothing contrary to the Doctrine or Discipline of the Church of England ; but that it may be Printed with the greatest profit of all men . I have transcribed these testimonies for the sake of those that crack , The Church of England , The Church of England , They are the only Protestants , &c. By which it appears , that they do not understand the Religion of Protestants , or else for sinister ends conceal their knowledge . I am perswaded , that these Collections may give occasion to some , that have not , to read the Book , and to others to be more moderate in their Censures of Dissenting Protestants . It would be very happy for us all , if we put in practice faithfully his advice , which tends so much to love and peace , that it would contribute much both to our present weal and eternal happiness . Mr. Chillingvvorth's Judgment OF THE RELIGION OF Protestants , etc. Of the Religion of Protestants . CHap. 6. Nom. 56. Know then , Sir , that when I say the Religion of Protestants is in prudence to be preferred before yours : as on the other side I do not understand by your Religion the Doctrine of Bellarmine , or Baronius , or any other private man amongst you , nor the Doctrine of the Sorbon , or of the Jesuits , or of the Dominicans , or of any other particular Company amongst you , but that wherein you all agree , or profess to agree , The Doctrine of the Council of Trent : so accordingly on the other side , by The Religion of Protestants , I do not understand the Doctrine of Luther , or Calvin , or Melanchton , nor the Confession of Augusta or Geneva , nor the Catechism of Heidelburg , nor the Articles of the Church of England , no , nor the Harmony of Protestant Confessions ; but that wherein they all agree , and which they all subscribe with a greater Harmony , as a perfect Rule of their Faith and Actions ; that is , the BIBLE , the BIBLE , I say the BIBLE only is the Religion of Protestants ! Whatsoever else they believe besides it , and the plain irrefragable , indubitable consequences of it , well may they hold it as a matter of Opinion , but not as a matter of Faith and Religion ; neither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it themselves , nor require the belief of it of others , without most high and most schismatical Presumption . I , for my part , after a long ( and as I utterly believe and hope ) impartial search of the true way to eternal happiness , do profess plainly , that I cannot find any rest for the sole of my foot , but upon this Rock only . I see plainly and with mine own eyes , that there are Popes against Popes , Councils against Councils , some Fathers against others , the same Fathers against themselves , a Consent of Fathers of one Age against the Church of another Age ; Traditive Interpretations of Scripture are pretended , but there are few or none to be found : No Tradition but only of Scripture can drive it self from the Fountain , but may be plainly proved , either to have been brought in , in such an Age after Christ , or that in such an Age it was not in . In a word , there is no sufficient certainty but of the Scripture only , for any considering man to build upon . This therefore , and this only , I have reason to believe ; this I will profess , according to this I will live , and for this , if there be occasion , I will not only willingly , but even gladly lose my life , though I should be sorry that Christians should take it from me . Propose me any thing out of this book , and require whether I believe it or no , and seem it never so incomprehensible to humane reason , I will subscribe it with hand and heart , as knowing no demonstration can be stronger than this , God hath said so , therefore it is true . In other things I will take no mans liberty of Judgment from him , neither shall any man take mine from me ; I will think no man the worse man or the worse Christian ; I will love no man the less for differing in opinion from me ; and what measure I mete to others , I expect from them again : I am fully assured that God does not , and therefore that men ought not to require any more of any man than this , To believe the Scriptures to be God's Word , to endeavour to find the true sence of it , and to live according to it . N. 57. This is the Religion which I have chosen after a long deliberation , and I am verily perswaded that I have chosen wisely , much more wisely than if I had guided my self according to your Churches Authority ; for the Scripture being all true , I am secured by believing nothing else , that I shall believe no falshood as matter of Faith : And if I mistake the senee of Scripture , and so fall into error , yet I am secure from any danger thereby , if but your grounds be true ; because endeavouring to find the true sence of Scripture , I cannot but hold my error without pertinacy , and be ready to forsake it , when a more true and a more probable sence shall appear unto me : And then all necessary truth being , as I have proved , plainly set down in Scripture , I am certain by believing Scripture , to believe all necessary truth ; and he that does so , if his Life be answerable to his Faith , how is it possible he should fail of Salvation ? Scripture the only Rule whereby to judge of Controversies ? Chap. 2. N. 11. — To speak properly ( as men should speak when they write of Controversies in Religion ) the Scripture is not a Judge of Controversies , but a Rule only , and the only Rule for Christians to judg them by : Every man is to judge for himself with the judgment of Discretion , and to chuse either his Religion first , and then his Church as we say ; or as you , his Church first , and then his Religion . But by the consent of both sides , every man is to judg and chuse ; and the Rule whereby he is to direct his choice , if he be a natural man , is Reason ; if he be already a Christian , Scripture , which we say is the Rule to judge all Controversies by , yet not all simply , but all the Controversies of Christians , of those that are already agreed upon this first Principle , that the Scripture is the Word of God. But that there is any man , or any company of men , appointed to be Judg for all men , that we deny ; and that I believe you will never prove . Every man to Judg for himself in matters of Religion . Chap. 2. N. 16. In Civil and Criminal Causes , the Parties have for the most part so much interest , and very often so little honesty , that they will not submit to a Law though never so plain , if it be against them ; or will not see it to be against them , though it be so never so plainly : Whereas if men were honest , and the Law were plain and extended to all cases , there would be little need of Judges . Now in matters of Religion , when the Question is , Whether every man be a fit Judg and Chuser for himself , we suppose men honest , and such as understand the difference between a Moment and Eternity ; and such men , we conceive , will think it highly concerns them to be of the true Religion , but nothing at all that this or that Religion should be the true : And then we suppose that all the necessary points of Religion are plain and easie , and consequently every man in his Cause to be a competent Judg for himself , because it concerns himself to judg right as much as Eternal Happiness is worth , and if through his own default he judg amiss , he alone shall suffer for it . Ch. 3. N. 81. — If they [ Men ] would be themselves , and be content that others should be , in the choice of their Religion , the Servants of God and not of men ; if they would allow , that the way to Heaven is no narrower now than Christ left it , this Yoak no heavier than he made it ; that the belief of no more difficulties is required now to Salvation , than was in the Primitive Church ; that no Error is in it self destructive and exclusive from Salvation now , which was not then ; if instead of being zealous Papists , earnest Calvinists , rigid Lutherans , they would become themselves , and be content that others should be plain and honest Christians ; if all men would believe the Scripture , and freeing themselves from prejudice and passion , would sincerely endeavour to find the true sence of it , and live according to it , and require no more of others but to do so , not denying their Communion to any that do so , would so order their publick service of God , that all which do so may without scruple or hypocrisie , or protestation against any part of it , joyn with them in it ; who does not see that ( seeing as we suppose here , and shall prove hereafter ) all necessary Truths are plainly and evidently set down in Scripture , there would of necessity be among all men , in all things necessary , unity of Opinion ? And notwithstanding any other differences that are or could be , Unity of Communion , and Charity , and mutual Toleration ; by which means all Schism and Heresie would be banished the world , and those wretched contentions which now rend and tear in pieces not the Coat , but the members and bowels of Christ , with mutual Pride and Tyranny , and Cursing , Killing , and Damning , would fain make mortal , should speedily receive a most blessed Catastrophe . But of this hereafter , when we shall come to the Question of Schism , wherein I perswade my self that I shall plainly shew , that the most vehement Accusers are the greatest Offenders , and that they are indeed at this time the greatest Schismaticks , who make the way to Heaven narrower , the Yoke of Christ heavier , the differences of Faith greater , the conditions of Ecclesiastical Government harder and stricter , than they were made at the beginning by Christ and his Apostles ; they who talk of Unity and aim at Tyranny , and will have peace with none but with their Slaves and Vassals . Pref. N. 30. — For what one Conclusion is there in the whole Fabrick of my Discourse , that is not naturally deducible out of this one Principle , That all things necessary to Salvation are evidently contained in the Scriptures ? Or what one Conclusion almost of importance is there in your Book , which is not by this one clearly confutable ? Grant this , and it will presently follow in opposition to your first Conclusion , and the Argument of your first Chapter , That amongst men of different Opinions , touching the obscure and controverted Questions of Religion , such as may with probability be disputed on both sides , ( and such are the disputes of Protestants ) good men and Lovers of Truth of all sides may be saved , because all necessary things being supposed evident concerning them , with men so qualified , there will be no difference ; there being no more certain sign that a point is not evident , than that honest and understanding and indifferent men , and such as give themselves liberty of Judgment , after a mature consideration of the matter , differ about it . Of Disagreeing Protestants . Ans . to Pref. N. 26. 1. The most disagreeing Protestants that are , yet thus far agree , that these Books of Scripture which were never doubted of in the Church , are the undoubted Word of God , and a perfect Rule of Faith. 2. That the sense of them which God intended , whatsoever it is , is certainly true ; so that they believe implicitly even those very truths against which they err ; and why an implicit faith in Christ and his Word , should not suffice as well as an implicit faith in your Church , I have desired to be resolved by many of your side , but never could . 3. That they are to use their best endeavours to believe the Scripture in true sense , and to live according to it . This if they perform ( as I hope many on all sides do ) truly and sincerely , it is impossible but that they should believe aright in all things necessary to Salvation , that is , in all those things that pertain to the Covenant between God and Man in Christ ; for so much is not only plainly but frequently contained in Scripture and believing aright the Covenant , if they for their parts perform the condition required of them , which is sincere obedience , why should they not expect that God will perform his promise and give them Salvation ? For as for other things which lye without the Covenant , and are therefore less necessary , if by reason of the seeming Conflict which is oftentimes between Scripture , Reason , and Authority on the one side , and Scripture , Reason , and Authority on the other , if by reason of the variety of Tempers , Abilities , Educations , and unavoidable Prejudices , whereby mens Understandings are variously formed and fashioned , they do embrace several opinions whereof some must be erroneous ; to say that God will damn them for such errors , who are Lovers of him , and Lovers of Truth , is to rob man of his Comfort , and God of his Goodness , it is to make man desperate , and God a Tyrant . Ib. N. 27. That it is sufficient for any mans Salvation that he believe the Scripture , that he endeavour to believe it in the true sence of it as far as concerns his duty ; and that he conform his life unto it either by Obedience or Repentance : He that does so , ( and all Protestants , according to the Dictamen of their Religion , should do so ) may be secured that he cannot err fundamentally , so that notwithstanding their differences and your presumption , the same Haven may receive them all . Ib. N. 29. Who can find fault with him [ De potter ] for saying ; If through want of means of Instruction , Incapacity , invincible or probable Ignorance , a man dye in error , he may be saved : But if he be negligent in seeking truth , unwilling to find it , either doth or will not see it , or might see it and will not , that his case is dangerous and without repentance desperate . Ch. 1. N. 11. Methinks with much more reason and much more charity , you must suppose that many of these Controversies which are now disputed among Christians ( all which profess themselves Lovers of Christ , and truly desirous to know his will and do it ) are either not decidable by that means which God hath provided , and so not necessary to be decided ; or if they be , yet not so plainly and evidently , as to oblige men to hold one way : Or lastly , if decidable , and evidently decided , yet you may hope that the erring part , by reason of some Veil before their eyes , some excusable ignorance or unavoidable prejudice does not see the question to be decided against him , and so opposes not that which he doth know to be the word of God , but only that which you know to be so , and which he might know , were he void of prejudice : which is a fault , I confess , but a fault which is incident even to good and honest Men very often ; and not of such a Gigantick Disposition as you make it , to flie directly upon God Almighty , and to give him the Lye to his Face . Of the Necessity of a Visible Judge in Controversies of Religion , as well as in Civil Matters . Ch. 1. N. 17. — In Civil Controversies we are obliged only to external passive obedience , and not to an internal and active . We are bound to obey the sentence of the Judge , or not to resist it , but not always to believe it just . But in matters of Religion such a Judge is required whom we should be obliged to believe to have judged right , so that in Civil Controversies every honest and understanding Man is fit to be a Judge , but in Religion none but he that is infallible . 5. In Civil Causes there is means and power , when the Judge has decreed to compel men to obey his Sentence : otherwise I believe Laws alone would be to as much purpose for the ending of Differences , as Laws and Judges both . But all the power in the World is neither fit to convince , nor able to compel a Man's Conscience to consent to any thing ; worldly terror may prevail so far asto make Men profess a Religion which they believe not , ( such men I mean who know not that there is a Heaven provided for Martyrs , and a Hell for those that dissemble such Truths as are necessary to be professed ) but to force either any man to believe what he believes not , or any honest man to dissemble what he does believe ( if God commands him to profess it ) or to profess what he does not believe , all the powers in the world are too weak , with all the powers of Hell to assist them . 7. In Civil Matters it is impossible Titius should hold the Land in question , and Sempronius too ; and therefore either the Plaintiff must injure the Defendant by disquieting his Possession , or the Defendant wrong the Plaintiff , by keeping his Right from him . But in Controversies of Religion the case is otherwise , I may hold my opinion , and do you no wrong , and you yours , and do me none . Nay , we may both of us hold our opinion , and yet do our selves no harm , provided the difference be not touching any thing necessary to Salvation , and that we love truth so well , as to be diligent to inform our Conscience , and constant in following it . Concerning Errors Damnable or not Damnable . Ch. 3. N. 52. I answer that these Differences between Protestants concerning Errors damnable , and not damnable : Truths fundamental and not fundamental may be easily reconciled ; for either the Error they speak of , may be purely and simply involuntary , or it may be in respect of the cause of it voluntarily : If the cause of it be some voluntary and unavoidable fault , the error is it self sinful , and consequently in its own nature damnable ; as if by negligence in seeking the Truth , by unwillingness to find it , by pride , by obstinacy , by desiring that Religion should be true which suits best with my ends , by fear of mens ill opinion , or any other worldly fear , or any worldly hope , I betray my self to any error contrary to any divine revealed Truth , that error may be justly styled a Sin , and consequently of it self to such an one damnable ; but if I be guilty of none of these faults , but be desirous to know the truth , and diligent in seeking it , and advise not at all with flesh and blood a-about the choice of my Opinions , but only with God and that Reason that he hath given me : If I be thus qualifyed , and yet through humane infirmity fall into error , that error cannot be damnable . Again , the Party erring may be conceived either to dye with Contrition , for all his Sins known and unknown , or without it : If he dye without it , this error in it self is damnable , will be likewise so unto him ; if he dye with Contrition ( as his error can be no impediment but he may ) his error , though in it self damnable , to him , according to your Doctrine , will not prove so . Of using Force in matters of Religion . Ch. 5. N. 96. But they endeavoured to force the Society whereof they were parts , to be healed and reformed as they were , and if it refused , they did , when they had power , drive them away , even their Superiors both Spiritual and Temporal , as is notorious . The proofs hereof are wanting , and therefore I might defer my Answer until they were produced , yet take this before hand : If they did so , then herein , in my opinion , they did amiss ; for I have learnt from the ancient Fathers of the Church , that Nothing is more against Religion , than to force Religion ; and of St. Paul , The Weapons of the Christian Warfare are not Carnal ; And great Reason : For humane violence may make men counterfeit , but cannot make them believe , and is therefore fit for nothing , but to breed Form without and Atheism within . Besides , if this means of bringing men to embrace any Religion were generally used , ( as if it may be justly used in any place , by those that have power and think they have truth , certainly they cannot with reason deny , but that it may be used in every place , by those that have power as well as they , and think they have truth as well as they ) what could follow but the maintenance perhaps of Truth , but perhaps only of the profession of it in one place , and the oppression of it in a hundred ? what will follow from it but the preservation peradventure of Unity , but peradventure only of Uniformity in particular States and Churches ; but the immortalizing the greater and more lamentable Divisions of Christendom and the World ? And therefore what can follow from it , but perhaps in the judgment of carnal Policy , the temporal Benefit and Tranquillity of Temporal States and Kingdoms , but the infinite prejudice , if not the dissolution of the Kingdom of Christ ? And therefore it well becomes them who have their Portions in this life , who serve no higher State than that of England , or Spain , or France , nor this neither any further than they may serve themselves by it ; who think of no other happiness but the preservation of their own Fortunes and Tranquillity in this World ; who think of no other means to preserve States but humane Power and Machiavilian Policy , and believe no other Creed but this , Regi aut Civitati Imperium habenti nihil unjustum quod utile ! Such men as these it may become to maintain by worldly power and violence , their State , Instrument , Religion ; for if all be vain and false ( as in their judgment it is ) the present whatsoever is better than any , because it is already setled : An alteration of it may draw with it change of States , and the change of State the subversion of their Fortune ; but they that are indeed Servants and Lovers of Christ , of Truth , of the Church , and of Mankind , ought with all courage , to oppose themselves against it as a common enemy of all these . They that know there is a King of Kings , and Lord of Lords , by whose Will and Pleasure Kings and Kingdoms stand and fall ; they know that to no King or State any thing can be profitable which is unjust , and that nothing can be more evidently unjust , than to force weak men by the Profession of a Religion which they believe not , to lose their own Eternal Happiness out of a vain and needless fear , lest they may possibly disturb their temporal quietness , there being no danger to any State from any mans Opinion , unless it be such an Opinion by which disobedience to Authority or Impiety is taught or Licensed ; which sort I confess may justly be punished as well as other faults ; or unless this sanguinary Doctrine be joyned with it , That it is lawful for him by humane violence to enforce others to it . Chap. 4. N. 16. This presumptuous imposing of the Senses of men upon the words of God , the special senses of men upon the general words of God , and laying them upon mens Consciences together under the equal penalty of Death and Damnation . This vain Conceit that we can speak of the things of God better than the words of God ; this deifying our own interpretations , and Tyrannous enforcing them upon others ; this restraining of the word of God , from that Latitude and Generality , and the Understandings of men from that liberty , wherein Christ and the Apostles left them ; this perswasion is no singularity of mine , but the Doctrine which I have learned from Divines of great Learning and Judgment . Let the Reader be pleased to peruse the seventh Book of Acont . de Strat. Satanae , and Zanch. his last Oration delivered by him after the composing of the discord between him and Amervachius , and he shall confess as much is , and hath been the only Fountain of all the Schisms of the Church , and that which makes them immortal : The common Incendiary of Christendom , and that which ( as I said before ) tears in pieces not the Coat but the Bowels and Members of Christ ; Ridente Turca , nec dolente Judaeo , take away these Walls of Separation , and all will quickly be one . Take away this Persecuting , Burning , Cursing , Damning of men for not subscribing to the words of men , as the words of God , require of Christians only to believe Christ , and to call no man Master but him only ; let those leave claiming Infallibility , that have no Title to it , and let them that in their Words disclaim it , disclaim it likewise in their Actions . In a word , take away Tyranny which is the Devils Instrument to support Errors , and Superstitions , and Impieties , in the several parts of the world , which could not otherwise long withstand the power of Truth . I say take away Tyranny , and restore Christians to their just and full liberty of Captivating their Understanding to Scripture only , and as Rivers , when they have a free passage , run all to the Ocean , so it may well be hoped by Gods blessing , that universal Liberty thus moderated , may quickly reduce Christendom to Truth and Unity . These thoughts of Peace ( I am perswaded ) may come from the God of Peace , and to his Blessing I recommend them . FINIS . 
A30554	----	The true Christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy, which hath overshadowed the whole world for many ages ... by a friend to all people, especially them that feares God, and loves righteousness. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A30554 of text R213868 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B6044). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 56 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A30554 Wing B6044 ESTC R213868 12739788 ocm 12739788 93097 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A30554) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 93097) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 376:14) The true Christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy, which hath overshadowed the whole world for many ages ... by a friend to all people, especially them that feares God, and loves righteousness. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. 24 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons ..., London : 1658. Written by Edward Burrough. Cf. Halkett & Laing (2nd ed.). End of text dated: the tenth month, 1657. Reproduction of original in Friends' Library, London. Marginal notes. eng Church of England -- Doctrines. Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. A30554 R213868 (Wing B6044). civilwar no The true Christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy, which hath overshadowed the whole world for many age Burrough, Edward 1658 11114 21 0 0 0 0 0 19 C The rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-02 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-07 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-07 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE TRUE CHRISTIAN RELIGION AGAIN DISCOVERED After the long and dark Night of Apostacy , which hath overshadowed the whole World for many ages ; and the profession and practise thereof witnessed unto by the Scriptures . And here all may see who it is of all these Sects and divers forms of Religion in these Nations , that are agreeable to the Scriptures in what they professe and practise , and who it is that are not according thereunto ; for the line of true judgement is stretched upon all profession , and a true search into , and tryal thereof is made , and hereby it is manifest who it is , and what sort of people , that may justly claim the benefit of the Protectors Oath , to be protected thereby in their practises of Religion , who hath bound himself to maintain and uphold that Christian Religion which is according to the Scriptures , &c. This is written for the good of this Commonwealth , and the information of all people in it . By a friend to all people , especially them that feares God , and loves righteousness . LONDON , Printed for Thomas Simmons , at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate , 1658. THE TRUE CHRISTIAN RELIGION Again discovered , &c. FOrasmuch as Oliver Cromwell , called Lord Protector of England , Scotland , and Ireland , ( chief Ruler according to man ) hath bound himself by an oath , and sworn that he will uphold and maintain the true reformed Protestan● Christian Religion in the purity thereof , as it is contained in the Old and new Testament of the Scriptures ; which oath he is bound to perform before the Lord and unto all men . Now it remains to be tried and proved what the Christian Religion is , and who it is in these Nations that are of the true reformed Protestant Christian Religion , in the purity thereof , as it is contained in the Scriptures , seeing there are abundance of Sects and diversities of judgements , and many Assemblies and gatherings of people who are divers in their wayes , in their practices , and in their form of Religion in these Nations , which doth all profess the Scriptures , and that their form of Religion is accorco the Scriptures ; but this cannot be , but it will be manifest otherwise ; for the Scriptures which were given forth by the one spirit of God , bears not witness of many true Ways , or unto many true Religions , but unto one truth , and unto one true Religion , and is the Declaration of one way of life , and salvation by one Jesus Christ , and there is no other Name under heaven given for salvation ; and they that believe in him , and receive him , they it is onely that are of the true Religion , who are guided by his spirit , and changed thereby from death to life , and such hath unity with the Father , and with the Son , and one with another , and are not of this world , but heirs of the Kindom of God , and these may own and claim a title to be defended and preserved in their exercise and practice of Religion . Therefore come all sorts of people , and let us try and prove who it is that is of the true Religion , and who it is that he is bound to maintain and uphold by his oath : Come I say , all Sects and sorts of people , and appear to trial ; Dare you join issue with me in this matter , to try your profession and practise of Religion , whether it be according to the Scriptures in the purity thereof yea or nay ; for the Lord hath put it into my heart to lay you all to the line of true judgement , and to prove you whether you must be upholden and maintained in your Religion , yea or nay : Come claim your priviledge ; if your profession and practice in Religion be according to the Scriptures , then you may own your right , and the benefit of the Protectors oath ; but if your profession and practice in Religion be otherwise , and not according to the Scriptures , then you must stand back , and defend your selves if you can , for the Protector is not bound to maintain and uphold you in your practice of Religion : And with this argument I shall try you all , whatsoever is professed and practised for Religion , for which there is neither command nor president in Scripture , is not according to the Scripture ; let this fall where it may , this is truth ; and therefore all people come to trial , and receive your judgement by this rule· And first , the true Religion is a walking with God in purity and holiness , a performing of good to him , and not doing any evil ; a belief in Christ , and receiving of him , and a living in him , and through the operation of his spirit , to be changed into his image , and the body of sin and death put off , and a living to God in all things , and not a living to this vain World in any thing , but in all things to be guided by the spirit of Christ : This in short is a description of the true Religion , and they that are of this Religion shall be saved in the day of the Lord , and in equity and righteousness should be protected according to the Oath before-mentioned , or else the oath is not performed in justice , but rather broken through transgression ; And first of all , as concerning that profession & practice in Religion , which is most general in these Nations I mean such as sprinkle Infants , and are sprinkled being Infants , professing it to be the Baptism into the faith of Christ , and that it is a seal of the new Covenant , and of remission of sins , and that thereby people are made capable of union with Christ , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sign of regeneration , &c. This is practised and professed by many for Religion , but this practice and doctrine is not according to the Scripture , being it was never commanded , nor any example for it in Scripture ; therefore all ye through all these Nations that are made Christians , and ownes your title in Christianity , and a right to fellowship with Christ , and that ye are joyned to the Church , and become members of Christ , because you were sprinkled when you were Infants , ( and all ye that teach this for doctrine , and practice it for Religion ) you are not of the true Christian Religion in the purity thereof , as it is contained in the Scriptures . This I do affirm ; therefore stand you by , for what you practise and professe , there is neither command nor president in Scripture ; if you could shew any , you are now called , and a necessity is put upon you to make use of your knowledge , if you would be protected in this Commonwealth in your practise of RELIGION ; likewise you sing , and give to sing Davids Psalmes in rime and meeter , professing it is to the glory and honor of God ; ye practice this as an Ordinance of God , as a part of his Worship , and as a part of your Religion ; but this practice and profession also is manifest not to be according to Scriptures , because it was never commanded , neither is there any president for this practice in the Scriptures , in Gospel-times : Therefore in this part of your Religion you cannot justly own to be protected and maintained , because the Protectors oath reaches not to uphold & maintain any such practices in Religion , which is not according to the Scriptures , likewise all ye that meets together to exercise your Religion , and to worship God in Temples made with hands , set apart by you for that practice , professing them to be Churches of Christ , this is not according , but contrary to the Scriptures , which saith , God dwells not in Temples made with hands ; neither did the Saints of old constantly practice any such thing , but it was the persecutors that met in Temples made with hands , who cast out , and hailed the Apostles out of such Temples , so that in this practice you cannot justly own to be protected , as not being a practice in Religion according to Scriptures . Likewise all ye whose Ministers preacheth for hire , and have hire for preaching , so much a year , and so much a Sermon at a Town , or a Parish in a setled place , and who takes Tythes , and compells people to pay tythes by a Law ; such are not the Ministers of Christ ; and ye that uphold such for Ministers of Christ , are false in judgement , and blind in understanding , and are not of that Christian Religion which is according to Scriptures in the purity thereof , neither Ministers nor people , for the Ministers of Christ never acted any such thing ; it was the false Prophets , and false Apostles that preached for hire , and for gifts and rewards ; neither did the Saints and Churches of Christ look upon them that acted those things , to be Ministers of Christ , but on the contrary , declared against them to be deceivers ; so that all you people , and you professed Ministers that acts those things that the false Prophets acted , and all you people that loves to have it so , and gives hire to your Ministers for preaching , and consenteth unto it , none of you are of the christian Religion , as it is held forth in the Scriptures , because this part of your practice in Religion is not according , but contrary to Scriptures : Now substracting all these in these Nations from the whole which practiseth and professeth these things mentioned for Ordinances of God , and for his Worship , none of you are of the true christian religion as it is held forth in the Scriptures , because these things which you practise for Religion , is not held forth in all the Scriptures by any example or command ; likewise you are of the greatest number of people in all these Nations ▪ and that practice and profession in Religion which the greatest number follow and exercise themselves in , cannot be the true christian Religion , because the Scripture saith , Few are in the straight way that leads to life , to wit , in the pure and true Religion ; but many are in the broad way that leads to destruction ; and such that are the greatest number who are in the broad way , are not in the Religion in the purity thereof , as it is held forth in the Scriptures ; likewise many of ye who practise those things mentioned for Religion , are yet unconverted to God , but lives in wickedness , in the pride and vanities , and in all the evil of this World , in double-dealing , in drunkenness , in Whoredom , & in the Works of darkness ; therefore you are not of the true christian Religion , neither do you walk with God in purity and holiness , neither are you changed by Christ into his Image , nor are guided by his spirit , neither do you live to God in any thing , but to this world in all things ; and your Religion is manifest not to be according to the Scriptures , but contrary ; and so let all people consider whether or no you must be maintained in your Religion . Come forth and plead your cause all ye that are called Presbyterians , and Independents , and all others , stand up , and prove if you can , your practice in religion to be according to Scriptures ; but seing no man is able to prove these things mentioned , which is practised by you for Religion , to wit , Sprinkling of Infants , and singing Davids experiences in rime and meeter , and worshipping God in set-places , as Idol-Temples , and preaching for , and giving great s●ms of money for preaching , with other things practised by you for Religion ; neither were these things ever commanded in Scriptures ; neither is there any example for the practise of these things in Scripture by any of the Lords people , & therefore you cannot justly own a title in the Protectors oath , to be maintained and upheld by vertue thereof in these your practises of Religion ; for it appears he is but bound onely to uphold and maintain that Religion which is according to Scriptures , and not them who practiseth those things for Religion which are not according , but contrary to the Scriptures ; Likewise all ye that are called gathered churches , who holds forth for Doctrine that the Scriptures are the word , ( by which the world was made ) and that the Scriptures are the foundation ; and that the Scriptures are the way to salvation ; & that the Letter and the Spirit are unseparable ; and that the Scriptures are both the writings and the thing signified ; and that except a man be baptized with water , he cannot be saved ; with such like Doctrines which have been held forth by some professing themselves to be of the church of Christ ; all you are manifest not to be of the christian religion , because those doctrines are not according , but rather contrary to the Scriptures : Likewise all ye whose practise in the exercise of Religion is but by imitation from the Scriptures , and you are not led by the spirit of the Father in what you speak , & practise , you are not of the true christian religion wch the Scripture speaks of ; for the sons of God , & who are of the true Religion , are led by the spirit of God , & not by their own thoughts & imaginations , & the traditions of men ; and all that are not led by the spirit of the Father , are not of the true christian Religion as it is held forth in the Scriptures , and not any that are such can justly own to be protected in their Religion , because it is not according to the Scriptures ; likewise all ye that doth profess the things of God and Christ , and that you are members of the church of Christ , and professes righteousness and truth in words , and yet lives in pride and the vanities of this world , and in unrighteousness , and the customs of the heathen , which are vain ; & are not clensed from unrighteousnes , nor freed from the body of sin & death ; neither doth answer your profession wth a conversation , shewing that you are not guided with that spirit whose words you do profess , all you are hypocrites , & lives in hypocrisie , none of you are of the true Christian Religion as it is held forth in the Scriptures ; for the exercise in true Religion sheweth forth in life what is professed in words ; come try your selves , and prove your selves all sorts of people , for now your Religion is to be tryed , what Name soever you go under ; and all you that practise and profess those things for Religion for which there is neither command nor president in Scripture , your Religion is concluded not to be according to Scriptures , and so no title or priviledge can any of you justly own of being upheld or maintained by the Protectors oath ; but as I have said , for sprinkling of Infants , and singing Davids experiences in rime and meeter , &c there is neither command nor president in Scriptures , and therefore you that practise those things which I have mentioned for Religion , are not of the true christian Religion which is according to the Scriptures , which is to be protected . Likewise all ye that persecutes by reproaches or revilings , and cruelty , or that causeth the people of God to be persecuted ; many of you there are in these Nations which professeth Religion , yet are envious persons , and persecutors of the innocent , hereby it is manifest that you are not of that Religion which is according to Scriptures ; for the Saints never persecuted any , but were themselves persecuted for righteousness sake ; so you are not to be protected in such exercise , because it is not according , but contrary to the Scriptures ; for you have no example from the Saints for professing and practising Religion , and yet persecuting such as are of the true Religion , whose consciences are truly exercised towards God , and towards all men . Now seeing that it is discovered in part , who it is that are not of the true christian Religion according to the Scriptures ; it remains to be proved ( if there be any ) who it is that is of the true christian Religion as it is held forth in the Scriptures , and who it is that is to be protected in their practise and exercise of Religion : And as concerning the despised and rejected people called Quakers , herein I shal speak for them as a Friend to them , and a lover of their ways , who is not ashamed of their practises in Religion , and shall measure and try their practises in Religion whether it be according to Scripture , and if it prove so to be , that what they practise for Religion , and holds forth for Doctrine , is according to the Scriptures , then why should not they own their right and priviledge to be upholden and maintained by the Protectors oath , who hath sworn to uphold and maintain them and their Religion , whose exercise in Religion is according to Scriptures , being that same people is , and hath been faithful subjects of this Commonwealth . And first of all , they dare not own themselves to be Christians , nor to be members of Christ , nor to have any right or title to the Kingdom of God , but as they witness converting by the spirit of the Lord , and are changed from death to life , and from darknesse to light , and from Satans power to the power of God , through the operation of the same spirit , and as in all their works and ways , and exercises in Religion , they are guided by the same spirit who leadeth them out of the World , and out of all the vanities and evil works thereof ; and this is according to the Scriptures , and their Religion herein is justified by the Scriptures , who witnesseth That Christ is in them , and that they have received him through faith , and thereby are cleansed from all unrighteousnesse , and have put off , and are putting off the body of sin and death , and walks with God in purity and holinesse , being led by the spirit of God therein , and with God they have peace , being reconciled by Jesus Christ , who is their salvation , and they have no other ; and this is according to the Scriptures . And againe as concerning their meetings , and the manner thereof , it is not contrary , but according to the Scriptures ; for though they meet in many parts of these Nations by great numbers , some in the open fields , and some on the Mountains in some places , and sometime without doors , and sometime in houses ; all this practise is according to the Scriptures ; for we read Mat. 5.1 . in the days of Christ , That there were great multitudes of people that followed him , and he went up into a Mountain , and preached , and taught them upon the Mountain ; and in Matt. 14. & 14. we read that there was great multitudes that came out of the Cities unto Iesus into the Deserts , & he had compassion toward them , and did good unto them , and at that time there was many thousands met together , as you may read , and it seems stayed whole days together , for they sate down on the grasse , and eat together , and then Iesus sent the multitudes away ; and in Mark 6. you may read how that multitudes came to Jesus out of the Cities into a desert place , and Jesus began to teach them many things in that desert place , for he had compassion on the multitude ; and in Luke 9. how the people again followed Jesus into a desert place , and he preached un●o them the King●om of God : Such meetings then was counted strange , as such meetings are now when the people of God meets together by great numbers , to preach , and to hear the Kingdom of God preached ; but their meetings are according to the Scriptures , for the people of God in generations past , met in the same manner as the people of God called Quakers , meets now ; for somtime Christ preached out of a * ship unto the people that stood on the sea shore ; & * Paul kneeled down & prayed among the Saints near the sea shore , at his passing into the ship ; and we read Acts 2 : that there was three thousand converted at one Sermon , then there must needs be a great meeting , and a great deal of people met together , such meetings now are wondred at , but such meetings are but according to Scripture ; so that this part of their practise in religion is agreeable to the Scriptures , and the same as the saints practise was in ages past : And as for the people of God meeting together sometime in the night-season to wait upon the Lord , and sometimes sitting in silence , & waiting upon the Lord & no words uttered amongst them , but every one sitting silent before the Lord having received nothing from the Lord to speak one to another , at which the people of the world do wonder , and falsly judg it not to be a christian exercise ; but we read in the Scripture , Job 2 : that Job ( who was a christian , for he was a just and perfect man ) he and his friends sate upon the ground seven days , and seven nights , and spake not a word one to another ; this would be a strange thing at this day to see practised : And in Jer. 8.14 . you may read , where the Prophet Jeremiah exhorted the people to assemble themselves , and said , Let us enter into the defenced Cities , and let us be silent there , for the Lord our God hath put us to silence ; but such a practise now is thought strange by the people of the world , who are not acquainted with the ways of God ; who are wise in their own eyes , and knows not what it is to wait upon the Lord in silence , who never yet was put to silence in themselves by the Lord ; and you may read Ezek. 3 : where the Prophet sate down amo●g the people of the Captivity , and they were astonished seven days ; and at the end of seven days , ( and not before ) the word of the Lord came to the Prophet ; so that you see it was the practise of the servants of the Lord oftentimes to sit and wait upon the Lord in silence , though people wonder at such meetings now ; and we do not read that there was alwayes speaking among the Saints in the churches when they were met together ; but Acts 2. we read that the church was met together in a place , and the Holy Ghost fell upon them , and then they began to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance ; then it seems they had not spoken before , though they had met together in a house , and then they spoke the wonderful things of God , and some that heard , mocked ; and others said they were full of new Wine ; even as the people of the World do at this day when any of the people of the Lord are moved to speak as the spirit gives utterance ; so that sometime to sit in silence being met together to wait upon the Lord , as many of the servants of the Lord do in this Nation , is a practise of Religion , and not contrary , but according to the Scriptures , for many of the servants and assemblies of the Lords people practised the same thing in ages past , as the servants of the Lord do at this day ; & so this practise is to be upholden and maintained , because it is proved to be according to the Scriptures , for the same thing was practised heretofore ; and we read Acts 20.7 . that the church met in the night , for Paul continued his sermon till midnight : And as for their practise in speaking , either man or woman as the spirit gives utterance , this is according to the Scriptures , though it be much wondred at , and cryed against by the wise men and people of this age , for we read Act. 2. that they spoke in their meeting as the spirit gave them utterance , without studying before-hand what to say ; & the Lord promised that sons and daughters should prophesie ; & in Act. 21.9 . we read of one that had four daughters that did prophesie ; & divers other places in Scripture doth shew that women * laboured in the Gospel , which doth prove that a woman speaking & declaring the things of God , is not contrary , but according to the Scriptures , and that any who are moved of the Lord , may declare the things of God , man or woman ; and the Apostle saith , 1 Pet. 4.10 . As every man hath received the gift , even so minister the same one to another ; so that this practise in Religion is proved to be according to the Scriptures . And as concerning their call to the Ministry , some are called from their ordinary callings , as from the Plough , or from handicraft work or tradings , or such like : this is according to the Scriptures also , for we read Matt. 4.18 , 19. where the disciples were called from their Nets , and some were called from the receit of custom ▪ and we read Amos 7. that he was a Herdsman , & a gatherer of Sycamore fruit , & * Elisha was called from the Plough ; and some others were called from keeping of sheep : So that their call to the Ministry , and practise in the Ministry , is according to the Scriptures ; for the servants of the Lord in former ages were called to the Ministry after the same manner ; so in that they do agree to the Scripture both in Ministry and ministring , and so may own protection herein by the Protectors oath . And as concerning their going up and down through the Countries , and from City to City , and from one Town to another , and from one Nation to another , this is according to the Scriptures , though some seek occasion thereby against them , and unjustly takes them as for Vagabonds , and executes their envy upon them , yet it was the Apostles practise , as you may read in the Book of Acts , where the Apostles travelled from Countrey to Countrey , and from one City to another ; and though some of the servants of the Lord are moved now to speak and dispute in the Markets , and reprove sin in the gates , and in the streets , and in the high-ways , and threatning Gods judgements against the wicked , all these things are according to the Scripture , and their practise herein is justified by the Scriptures ; for we read Acts 17.17 . that Paul disputed in the Synagogues with the Iews , and with the devout persons , and in the Market dayly with them that met with him ; and we read Jer. 7. that he was commanded to stand in the Gate of the Lords House , and to speak to all that passed into it . And Jer. 26. we read that he was commanded to stand in the Court of the Lords House , without doors , and to speak to all the Cities of Judah . And we read in the Booke of Jonah , how he was commanded to go through the streets , and to reprove sin , and to threaten Gods judgements against the wicked ; and these practises were strange in that generation , as they are at this day unto the World , who are not acquainted with the ways of God ; but all people may see , though the servants of the Lord do practise these things now as they are moved , their practise herein is according to the Scriptures , for the servants of the Lord in former ages acted the same things ; so that in this practise the servants of the Lord ought not to be persecuted , but protected and maintained in it , and that by the Protectors oath , because it is proved to be according to the Scriptures , which he is sworn to maintain . And as concerning their crying against such , and declaring against them by word and writing , that preach for hire , and divines for money , and seeks for their gain from their quarter , and such who goes for gifts and rewards , and hath sums of money by the year for preaching , and though they deny such that acts those things , to be Ministers of Christ ; this practise also is according to the Scriptures , for we read Mich. 3. that he declared against such as preached for hire , and divined for money , and such were no Ministers of Christ . And we read Isa. 56. that he declared against them that sought for their gain from their quarter , which were greedy covetous men , such as is many of the Teachers of England . Again , we read Matt. 23. where Christ declared against such , & did not own such to be any of his Ministers , who were called of men Master , who stood praying in the Synagogue , and had the chief places in the Assemblies . And we read in 2 Pet. 2. and in many other places , where the Apostles declared against such , and denyed such to be Ministers of Christ , that preached for filthy lucre , and took gifts and rewards for preaching , and by feigned words made merchandize of souls , who were heady and high minded men , as you may read 2 Tim. 3. chap. and such men were denyed to be Ministers of Christ , by the Prophets , Christ , and his Apostles . So that all people may see this practice of the servants of the Lord at this day , who are moved to declare against such men that acts these things mentioned , is perfectly according to the Scriptures ; for the servants of the Lord spoken of in Scripture , did the very same things in this particular , as is done at this day ; therefore for this practise they ought not to be persecuted as they have been , but ought to be protected and maintained in it , and that by the Protectors Oath , who hath sworn to maintain that practice which is according to the Scripture ; and to declare against them that preach for hire , and have great sums of money for preaching , and that are called of men Master , and that takes gifts and rewards of people for preaching ; I say , to do thus is a practise which the Scripture gives a large example for ; and so it must needs be according to the Scriptures , and ought to be protected in this Government . Again , as concerning their denying to respect persons , or to bow with hat or knee , in respect of worshipping any creature , this also is according to the Scriptures , though the people of the world , who live in pride and vain customs , are offended with them in this practise ; for we read that God commanded not to bow to any likeness , Exod. 20. And we read James 2. the Apostle exhorts not to have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons , but condemns that practise of respecting such as are in goodly apparel , and gay clothing , and have gold Rings , above a poor man in vile rayment ; and he saith plainly , They that have respect to persons , commits sin ; and we read that the Pharisees said of Christ , he respected no mans person ; and he is our example . And we read that the three children was cast into the fiery Fornace with indignation before the King , being bound before him , and cast into the Fornace , Dan. 3. And we read that Paul and all the servants of God , did thou Kings , and Princes , and Rulers , and they spoke plainly to all men , and durst not give flattering titles to any , as you may read in Job 32. so that all people may see the practise in denying to respect persons , and in speaking plainly , without flattering Titles to any man , denying to put off the Hat , or bowing to men in gay clothing , or giving place to such that wear Gold Rings , and have goodly apparel , before such as have vile raiment , is justly according to the Scriptures , though people stumble at such practises ; and the people of God may claim to be maintained in this practise of their Religion , seeing it is proved to be commanded in Scriptures , not to respect the person of any man ; and also it was the Saints practise , and therefore herein they ought not to be condemned , but ●ustified , as being a practice in Religion agreeing with the Scriptures . And as concerning their denying obedience to Magistrates in some causes , this is according to the Scripture also ; for we read that the Rulers commanded the Apostles , and straitly charged them to speak no more in the Name of Jesus ; yet the Apostles did not obey Magistrates herein , neither did they cease to preach in the Name of Jesus ; and though Christ was commanded , or besought to depart out of their coasts , yet he did not obey their request ; and we read that the three children were commanded to worship the great Image , yet they did not obey this command of the King . So that all people may see it is lawful for the Saints to disobey commands of Kings & Rulers , where they command that to be done or spoken which God doth not , but the contrary : And I say again , Where Kings or Rulers , Parents or Masters doth command or require any thing of them that are under them which is not according to God , in such causes subjects , or people , and children and servants , are free , and not required of the Lord to subject to any thing which is not justly according to him ; but yet we say , That subiects , and people , and children , and servants ▪ ought to be subject to them that have rule over them , in all things which is according to God in truth and righteousness ; and by the Law of God all people are bound to obey those that have rule over them , and not to disobey them in any thing which may stand with the exercise of a good conscience to God ; so that though the people of the Lord now do deny to depart out of a Town or place , and though they will not cease to declare against sin and wickedness in Teachers and people , though a Magistrate command it , this is but according to the Scriptures , for the Apostles went on boldly , declaring the Name of the Lord after they were forbidden ; and thus the servants of the Lord doth now , they freely declare the way of salvation , and calls people to repent , and reproves iniquity in ●ll sorts of people , though wicked men command them to the contrary , and falsly charges them that they are disobedient to Government and Authority , though they are not , no more then the servants of God , and Apostles of Christ , who in the same causes , did the same things ; and the Lord hath commanded to cry aloud , and not to spare , but to tell people of their transgressions ; and therefore many of the Lords servants doth deny to be silent , or to cease from declaring against sin , though a Magistrate command it : And Christ hath commanded not to swear at all ; and therefore many doth deny to swear upon any account , in any place , though the Magistrates do command it . And the servants of the Lord doth deny to put off a Hat , or to bow in respect of any mans person , though a Magistrate command it ; for the Scripture doth say , He that respects persons , commits sin ; so that all people may see that what the servant of the Lord doth in these things , are not contrary , but according to the Scriptures ; for all these things were commanded & practised by the Saints in former ages , & they said it was better to obey God then man , and we ought to do it in all things , and that according to the Scriptures too . So that in all these practises in religion the Scriptures justifies them , and be●rs witness to them , and they might claim protection in the exercise of them by the Protectors oath ; but if they be not maintained , but persecuted for the practise of these things , then will the light in every mans conscience witness the oath is broken , and not kept ; for it extends to uphold and maintain the practice of Religion which is according to the Scriptures , as these is proved to be . And as concerning their doctrines wch the world stumbles at , yet their doctrines are according to the Scripture ; though they say , Chr. is the light of the world , & lighteth every man , or hath given light to every man that cometh into the world , this is according the Scripture , as you may read , Joh. 8.12 . & Ioh. 1.9 . and though they turn people from darkness to the light of Christ within them , & exhorts people to hearken to that within them , & not to seek a Christ without them , to ascend or descend to fetch him , these Doctrines are perfectly according to the Scripture ; for you may read Acts 26.18 . Paul saith he was sent to turn people from darkness to the light , and from the power of Satan to the power of God ; and Rom. 10 you may read the Apostle saith , What saith it , The Word is nigh thee in thy heart , that is , The Word of Faith which we preach ; and they were not to say , Who shall ascend , or descend to fetch Christ . And though they tell people they must witness Christ in them , or else they cannot be saved ; this also is according to the Scriptures , as you may read 2 Cor. 13. chap. the Apostle saith , Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates . And though they say , Christ is the Word of God , and doth deny the Scriptures to be the Word by which the World was made ; this Doctrine also is according to the Scriptures ; for we read Rev. 19.13 . that the Name of Jesus is called the Word of God . And Luke 1. of the Scriptures it is said , they are a Declaration by those which were eye-witnesses and Ministers of the Word . And though they press people to perfection , and doth say , Men may be perfect upon Earth , and compleat in Christ Jesus , this Doctrine also is according to the Scriptures ; for you may read 1 Cor. 2. chap : and 6 : of some that were perfect , who were men upon earth ; and the Ministers of Christ spoke Wisdom among them that were already perfect ; and Col. 2·10 . the Apostle saith unto the Church who were men in this life upon Earth , he saith to them , Ye are compleat in him . And though they press the people to live without sin , and doth say , They that are born of God doth not commit sin ; this also is according to the Scripture ; for it is Christs command , Mat : 5 : Be perfect , as your Father in heaven is perfect : and 1 Joh. 3. there it is spoken of some that were the sons of God already , and he saith , Whosoever is born of God , doth not commit sin , for he cannot sin because he is born of God ; and saith he , A● he is , [ Christ ] so are we in this present world . And now all people may understand that in all these Doctrines which they do hold forth , they do fully agree with the Scriptures ; and they bear witness to the truth of their Doctrines , that the servants of God , and the Apostles of Christ , did preach the very same things for Doctrine as is done at this day ; and so these Doctrines are not to be wondred at , not so much as they are by the wicked to be cryed against for heresie and error ; and these few particulars onely I have mentioned , at which the people of this age the most stumble at ; and all other things whatsoever which is held forth for Doctrines unto people , I am able to prove them by the Scriptures , that in all things they are according to the Scripture , & not different or contrary to the Scriptures ; so that all people may take notice and see that whatsoever they do practice for Religion , and holds forth for Doctrine , they do herein justly according to the Scriptures , and they justifie their practises & doctrines in these things mentioned , and in whatsoever else can be objected by any man . And this I shall take in hand to prove before all the World , That the people of God called Quakers , doth practice nothing for Religion , or preach for Doctrine , but what is perfectly according to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament , and in the fulfilling of them ; and so they are proved to be of that true christian Religion which is according to the Scriptures , and so may fully claim protection and preservation in their practice of Religion : And this is to be considered by the Protector and all Magistrates and people in these Nations , that they may know what the true Christian Religion is , and who is in it , and who is not in it ; and for this purpose is this written , for the satisfaction of all people , that they may see who it is that hath a right and priviledg to be protected & upholden by vertue of the Oath . Likewise all may understand , That what such practice and profes for Religion , is not without good ground , but that the very same things were practised by them that were of the true Christian Religion , and preached for Doctrine by them that were Saints , which is now practised and held forth by the people of God ; and the Scriptures doth fully bear witness in all things , shewing that such are guided by the same spirit which the Saints were guided by in ages past ; and as they had , so have these the testimony that they are of God , and that the whole world lies in wickedness . And as concerning their being persecuted by many of the Rulers , Priests and People , though they be sent to prison , and banished out of Towns , and whipped and beaten , and scorned , and reviled , this is also according to the Scriptures , and the Scriptures is fulfilled upon them ; for the same things were done to the Apostles , and to the servants of the Lord , as you may read through the Acts , the people mocked the Apostles , and slandered them , and said they were full of new Wine , and the chief Priests conspired against Christ and the Apostles , and incensed the Magistrates against them , and the Magistrates put Christ and many of the Apostles in prison , and caused them to be whipped and beaten , & to be banished , & many other cruelties done unto them ; the Scripture is full to prove this , from the beginning , to the end of it ; and Christ said , They shall persecute you , and speak all manner of evil of you for my Names sake , and as they have done unto me , so shall they do unto you ; ye shall be hated of Nations : And the Apostle said , All that will live godly in Christ Iesus , shall suffer persecution . So that all people may see , though the people of the Lord be persecuted , and reviled , and imprisoned , and cruelty done unto them ; and though it be done by the chief Magistrates , and chief Rulers , and the wise men of this age , all this is according to the Scriptures , and that the Scriptures might be fulfilled ; and the same things which are now done unto the people of God , were done unto the people of God in ages past by the same instruments , to wit , the Rulers and Magistrates ; and by the same means , to wit , by the information , and false accusations of the chief Priests and Teachers ; in Jeremiah you may read how the Priests sought to take away his life ; and you may read how the chief Priests consulted against Christ , and how they complained to the Magistrates against him and the Apostles ; and the same things are now come to pass , and we do not strange at it , for it is the chief Priests of England that doth most seek the persecution , and causes the people of God to be persecuted by their complaining and petitioning to the Magistrates ; so that in all these things , not onely what is practised and preached for Doctrine , but also in what is suffered , is perfectly according to the Scriptures , and all people that are not blind , may see that this Religion is in all things agreeable with the Scriptures , both in what they do and in what they suffer , so that this is given forth for the good information of the Protector , and all Magistrates , that they may hear the tryal of all things , and may not falsly conjecture or suppose , and thereupon give judgement without any true knowledge , let them search the Scripture , and try ; I hope the worst of men hath so much conscience , that they will stand in awe of the breach of their own oaths , and that they will perform unto the Lord and unto all men , what they have firmly ( and not compell'd ) sworn to do ; and thus it may be hoped the woful persecution wil cease , which is lamentable to be declared , how the people of the Lord have sufferd in many things , even them whose Religion is proved to be according to the Scriptures , who practice nothing for Religion , neither holds forth any thing for Doctrine but that which is perfectly agreeable to the Scriptures , as all people hereby may understand ; which Religion the Protector hath sworn to maintain and uphold ; then who shall presume to persecute the people whose practise in Religion is proved to be the very same which his oath extends to maintain ? Surely no men will be so impudent , or shew such rebellion to Government , as to endeavour to break down and destroy that people whose Religion is proved to be justly that which he is by oath bound to maintain ; some heretofore before this Oath was taken , might plead ignorance , and say they knew not the mind of the Protector ; but now his mind is fully discovered , and he doth not onely allow , but also hath solemnly sworne to maintain and uphold that Christian Religion which is according to Scriptures ; and it is proved what people it is whose Religion is so ; and I say again , That same people mentioned doth practice nothing , neither holds forth any thing for Doctrine , but it is either commanded , or there is president for it in Scripture , or agreeable thereto ; and therefore that same people is of the true Christian Religion which the Lord Protector hath bound himselfe to maintain , by oath in the face of the whole Nations , so that none of the Magistrates now can plead ignorance ▪ for as he is sworn to uphold the people of God in their Religion , so are they bound to be true to him and the Government , and to fulfil the good Laws , and his oaths and enterprises ; so that I say again , it may be hoped for the time to come , for protection , and to be maintained , and no longer persecuted and destroyed in their persons and estates , as formerly they have been , if men regard their own oaths , or there be any truth or sincerity in the heart of man ; and I say , By this very oath mentioned might the people of God own and claim protection and defence in their way and practise of Religion , which is so plainly proved to be according to the Scriptures , though none of them desired such an oath for their protection , or sought after it ; yet being voluntarily instituted and taken , why may not they own the extent of it , which reacheth to them more then to any besides , as is clearly described ; and not for their own sakes altogether , do they own the benefit of it , but that he which hath taken it , may be clear in the sight of the Lord in performing of his oath , for his felicity , and the increase and continuance of good Government , they desire as much as their own protection ; and they would not have any man so wicked , or the cause of perpetual infamy to be given to this Nation so much , as that any thing should be destroyed or broken down , which is sworn to be upheld and maintained in the Nation , lest the Heathen Rulers rise in condemnation against the doers thereof : These , with many other arguments which might be produced , presseth many to endeavour the fulfilling of the said oath , for his own sake who hath taken it . And that first of all , by that oath the people of God may own protection in this Commonwealth , because their Religion is according to the Scriptures , &c. Secondly , That some people might also own protection in this Commonwealth , in that the most of them , if not all , have been true and faithful subjects of this Commonwealth , and hazarded lives and estates for the establishing of such a Government wherein the people of God might have full liberty for the exercise of their pure conscience . Again , they may own protection in this Commonwealth as being at this day a harmless and innocent people , not being offensive to any mans person or estate , or in any other thing , ( except to sin and wickedness , and the workers thereof ) and I say again , That they do not desire any thing but the welfare , and the encrease , and the establishment of this present Government , wherein it is according to God : And this is written for the information of all sorts of people , that they may know unto what sort of people the Protectors oath extends to uphold and maintain ; and as concerning all those whose practise in Religion and Doctrines are not according to Scripture , but contrary to it , as is manifest , and so not to be maintained and uphold●n in their profession and practice of Religion by the Protectors oath ; yet it is not desired that such should be destroyed , or overthrown , or bound , or imprisoned , or any cruelty done to them , though their practice be not according to Scriptures ; but it s desired that such may live in peace in the Commonwealth , enjoying their Religion to themselves without any molestation from any ou●ward Law , or outward power , for many would not that any should be compelled to , or from any exercises in Religion by an outward Law , but let them defend themselves in their Religion , from those who may be moved of the Lord to reprove them , or declare against them , or covince them ; so that many would have Religion to defend it self , and that the Magistrates with their Laws may preserve the peace in the Commonwealth , and mens persons and Estates , and not their opinions and judgements ; and we would they may not limit or stint tender consciences , for many may be of a tender conscience in those things wherein their consciences are not truly informed , and such should not bee condemned to death , but to b● won by sound doctrine , and instructed by those who are called of God , and so this is written that the whole Nation may understand the minde of the Lords servants in all these things . And let no man blame me , for I have but with an equal hand brought all sorts of people to the line of true judgement , that they may know who is to be maintained ( and who is not ) in their Religion , and practises thereof . But and if that after all this , the people of God be persecuted , and violence be done to them , and injustice and unrighteousness acted upon them in this Commonwealth , as of late years hath been , and yet it be suffered to be , and none taken any notice to preserve and defend them whose Religion is according to Scripture , which he is sworn to maintain , then I leave it to the light in all mens consciences to judge ▪ what a condition such are in whose oath is not kept , but broken ; for these things are of no less value then either breaking or keeping a mans own oath , which solemnly hath been taken ; and this is not a light thing , but to be seriously considered of both by Magistrates , Teachers and people in this Commonwealth , yet notwithstanding all this , the people of God doth not boast in , or trust unto the arm of flesh , neither are any whit the more confident in their way , though it be proved that they ought in justice to be upholden and maintained in what they profess and practise , as aforesaid ; for their hope and confidence is onely in God , who onely is sufficient to protect and uphold his people in all their ways and exercises ; and though all men do forget their own promises and oaths , yet will not the Lord forget his chosen people , to defend them from all their Enemies , who hath again appeared to gather his people , after the long and dark night of apostacy , and his House and Tabernacle shall be exalted over all the Earth . An Objection . Now many may say , seeing I challenge , claim , and affirm that this Religion is the true Religion which is according to Scripture , then they ask and say , Hath there been no true Religion before this ? or hath all these Religions been false before ? and seeing this hath but newly appeared in the world , was there no true Religion before ? and if there were any , where was it ? and what was that Religion , seeing there hath not been for many ages such a Religion as this is : And after this manner doth many reason and object to themselves , and raises to themselves stumblings , and conceits themselves that our forefathers were of a good way , and many of them sure were saved which was not of this Religion , which did not profess and practice these things which is professed and practised by this people . Answer ▪ Now unto all these I do answer and say , That this Religion is the true Religion which is according to Scriptures , as is proved already , seeing they profess and practice nothing for Religion but what the Scriptures doth justifie , and shews the very examples of the same things ; but that God had a people in all ages , and a feed that never bowed to Baal it s believed , and such as did sincerely seek after God according to what they knew , and they were accepted of God according to what was made manifest in that age and generation ; yet the testimony of truth it self , and the way of the Lord it self , for many generations hath not so clearly and purely been held forth , as it is now in this age and generation ; for now the true light hath shined , and the way of salvation is evidently made manifest , as by many witnesses and evident tokens which may be given , and was not so clearly for many ages past , held forth and known : And such who have been sincerely seeking after God , though they knew not perfectly the way unto him , neither had they such a pure testimony revealed to guide them , as now is manifest , yet such do now rejoice , and owns the way of the Lord , and the seed of God is refreshed in them , and all causes of stumbling removed , and the pure light of the Gospel is sprung forth more clear in this age , then in any age for many generations ; for the Scripture sheweth that a dark night of Apostacy hath been over the whole world , and the beast hath reigned , and the false Prophet hath deceived many Nations ; and the whole World hath wondered after the beast for many ages , and the beast hath made war with the Saints , and hath had power to kill them , and hath put a stop many times to the appearances of God , till now at length he doth appear , and the power of hell and death shall not stop it , and they do say that they are come out of the Apostacy , to the dawning of the day again , and the same power of God , and the same truth as was in the Apostles days , and the same Ministry by the gift of the same Holy Ghost as was in the Apostles days , is now witnessed , and at the time of ignorance God winked , but now the eye is opened , and all is called to repentance ; so it will not excuse any man to plead how it was with our forefathers , or to say , Where was this Religion before these few years , and such like , for now the power of God it self is made manifest , which brings into the true Religion , and all that are of God heareth it , and shall own it , and shall receive the Testimony which is given : It 's known that there are many thousands which hath not yet owned it , in which there is true thirstings after God , and a zeal for him , and such are not condemned to be altogether out of Religion , for such seeks his face , and the day is neither clear nor dark to them , in which they are ; and such shall own and submit to the Government of Christ ; and they that are not under the Government , are not of the true Religion ▪ as I said ; This is the time of restauration , and the Lord is bringing back again , and a thorow reformation wil the Lord work in the Earth , such as hath not been known in ages past . There hath been a Seed sown which the Devil hath catched away ; but now the Seed shall grow ▪ and become the greatest of all herbs , and the fowls of Heaven shall lodge in the Branches . And this is a plain answer to all sober people , for according to the Scriptures in the times of the Apostles , the day of glorious light sprung forth , and mighty was the power of God at that day , but since hath darkness overshadowed all , and Antichrist hath reigned , and the whole world hath been made drunk with the wine of forn●cation , which hath been in the hand of the whore , who hath set upon the Beast , and upon Nations and Peoples , and the Gentiles hath trodden under foot the holy City of God for forty and two months ; but now is the time of restauration as hath been promised , that the Lord is bringing back his people again , and the Tabernacle of God shall be with men , and Christ alone must reign and rule , and his Kingdom set up over the whole world . And let no man be offended at what I have done ; for I have not reflected upon any mans person , but on what he practiseth for Religion . London , the tenth Month , 1657. The End : Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A30554e-110 * Mark 4.1 , 2. Luke 5 3. * Act : 20 * Phil. 4.3 * 1 Kings 19.19 . 
A40412	----	A letter from the Duke of Brandenburg, to several ministers of state, shewing his firm resolution to defend the Protestant religion Frederick I, King of Prussia, 1657-1713. 1680 Approx. 3 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 2 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A40412 Wing F2108A ESTC R7128 12251548 ocm 12251548 57114 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A40412) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 57114) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 144:2) A letter from the Duke of Brandenburg, to several ministers of state, shewing his firm resolution to defend the Protestant religion Frederick I, King of Prussia, 1657-1713. 1 sheet (2 p.) Printed for T. Davis, London : 1680. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism. Broadsides -- England -- 17th century. 2006-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-01 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-02 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2007-02 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A LETTER FROM THE Duke of Brandenburg , To several Ministers of STATE ; SHEWING His firm RESOLUTION to Defend the Protestant Religion . Gentlemen , I Shall be aware both how and with whom I Engage , for through the Conduct of all the Affairs of the Confederates , since the Rise of the War in the year 1672. Their several Projects have been no sooner formed but betrayed ; for , the Jesuits being the Ascendant , both laid a Monarchical Design and a total Subversion of the Protestant Religion , all over Europe , influencing most Princes Councils , by a powerful Operation of Money , both from Rome and France , which is plentifully bestowed , and was gratefully received and tho the Jesuits seem ▪ to carry on several Interests , being the guidance of many Princes , yet craftily center their Designs in the most Potent . And I too sensibly know , that when I commanded the Imperial Forces , my Destruction was levell'd at , by the Jesuitical Cabal , by those I Assisted , which caused me timely to withdraw . Now therefore amidst these Disadvantages , can I promise any better Success ? I have many Motives to induce my belief , that the same Design is Vigorously carrying on , though in a seeming Peace ; nothing therefore can be of Efficacy to Protect us , till we new model our Affairs , and by a strict sincere Re-union , and fixt Resolution to go through the Work , and to make an utter Dismission of all the Jesuits , who lye lurking in our Bosoms only to confound us . But , I fear some are so infatuated by them , as not to pursue my Advise , till Desolation and Misery overtake them : And for my part I will strictly observe it my self , and for ever defie their pestilent Notions , and stand upon my Guard , and assume the glory , though I be forsaken by all , and chuse rather to dye with the Sword in my Hand , in Defence of my Country and Protestant Religion , than survive under the Tyranny of France and Malignancy of Rome ; for I am sure in what place soever it dilates it self , a Deluge of Misery will be brought along with it , both by Oppression and Idolatry . FINIS London , Printed for T. Davis . 1680. 
A28581	----	A brief account of the first rise of the name Protestant and what Protestantism is ... / by a professed enemy to persecution. Bold, S. (Samuel), 1649-1737. 1688 Approx. 116 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 25 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A28581 Wing B3477 ESTC R16825 11931112 ocm 11931112 51123 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A28581) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 51123) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 809:21) A brief account of the first rise of the name Protestant and what Protestantism is ... / by a professed enemy to persecution. Bold, S. (Samuel), 1649-1737. [8], 40 p. [s.n.], London : 1688. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to S. Bold. cf. BM. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2006-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-08 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2006-08 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF THE FIRST RISE OF THE Name Protestant ; And what Protestantism is : with a Justification of it ; and an earnest Exhortation to all Protestants to persist in that Holy Religion . By a Professed Enemy to Persecution . LORD BISHOP of CORK'S Protestant Peace-Maker . Pag. 128. — I am , and must be in the mind , that the Strength of the Protestant Cause , both here at Home , and throughout Christendom , lyes in the Vnion of Protestants ; and the Glory , Purity , and Power of Christianity in the World , stands or falls with PROTESTANTISM . LONDON , Printed in the Year 1688. THE EPISTLE TO THE Protestant Reader , THE following Papers were , for the most part of them , writ two Years since , and had then been offered to your view , if they had not been obstructed by some Persons , and for some Considerations , of no use to be here mentioned . The Author conceived at that time , there was occasion to suspect , that many who pretended to be Protestants , closed with that Profession out of Interest , or something a-kin to that , rather than from Knowledge and Conscience . Many appeared ignorant of the occasion of the Protestant Name , and to understand no better what was Protestantism it self . These seemed to be so wavering and uneasie under their present Circumstances , that little less was necessary to reconcile them to the Roman Religion , than to be certainly secured from the terrible effects of Humane Statutes , provided to deter Men from such Reconciliation . This prompted the Author ( having some undesired vacation at that time , from his usual Imploy ) to endeavour to contribute something towards the helping of such , who were thus unsteady , to discern what it was they were about to relinquish ; and consequently , enquire what it is , on the other side , they must espouse . People , in matters of Religion , ought to be considerate and wary ; they should not deal with Religion as they do with their Hats and Cloaths , when out of the fashion . He thinks that Gibbets aad Confiscations , and such Engines , are no Gospel Appointments to befriend the True Faith. Yea , he is of opinion , that the Ambition and Sloth of Church-Officers , did first introduce Penal Laws , to defend and guard Christianity , and force People into a Profession of the Truth . And that Christianity made greater numbers of real Proselites , during Constantine's general Toleration , than were made by the Penal Laws under that Emperour's Government , or by all the Penal Laws that ever were made since that time . He thinks that Penal Laws have not wholly rendred Christianity ineffectual ; but how much they have impeded its progress , he thinks , is very hard to comprehend . They have certainly very much promoted Hypocrisy and Formality . The Author is indeed a Conformist , but one that was grieved at the indiscreet , and less charitable censures and carriages of many who boasted of the same character . He was really troubled to see them , who said they were Protestants , behave themselves so unbeseemingly towards their fellow Protestants , and so industriously weaken and undermine that very Church they made such a clamour about . He does not impute what they did , intirely to spleen and malice against the Church they pretended to . As for many of them , he apprehends their Intellectuals were so impotent , they had few thoughts of their own , by which to govern themselves , but were wholly under a forreign conduct , which yet they perceived not . How many more were influenced by motions too mean and carnal for any good Man voluntarily to resign himself unto ? For the first sort , we may pray , as our Saviour did for his Crucifiers , Lord , forgive them , for they knew not what they did . But as for the other sort , he leaves others to consider what measure of Charity belongs to them , who furiously ruine their Religious Neighbours , and pull down the Church they seem to own , meerly to satisfie their own filthy and most detestable Lusts . He manifested some resentment , that Protestantism should be treated with so much harshness , by those who pretended to the same Religion . Which occasioned his having some experience , not only of the reproachful language , but the ruder effects of the misguided vehemence of some of his own Communion . But these things he overlooks , and hopes that others , whose treatment hath not been very obliging , will so forget what is past , as not to insist thereon , to the prejudice und dammage of the Religion in common amongst us . The Prefacer concurring in all these matters with the Author thinks he may , with greater confidence , apply to all sorts of Protestants , in intreating and beseeching them , that they will not do any thing now against , but for the Truth . And more particularly , I would desire , 1. Those who are indifferent and wavering , to consider , and think seriously before they change . Some , it may be , would make no scruple to depart from the Protestant Profession , were it not they were awed with the dread and terrour of some future danger in this World , that may possibly overtake them , should they , under present Circumstances , resign up themselves to a Profession our Laws have made Criminal . But true Religion is a matter quite distinct from Humane Laws : it is of most necessary and important concern to Men's Souls , and their Eternal Salvation . And Humane Laws , whether for , or against it , do not alter the Case . And therefore both as Christians and as Men , you ought to consider and weigh things . Where different Religions are propos'd , you must examine the Particulars on each side , by the Only Rule of Religion , and must govern your selves by Evidence . The nature and importance of Religion , and the unvaluable worth of your own Souls , require this . There is nothing so foolish and absurd , as to be of a Religion you do not understand , or to change your Profession , you know not why , nor wherefore . Would you alter , to obtain Preferments and Honours ? Alas , how littlt reason have you to expect these things , whil'st there are others of more desert , and who bring better Testimonials with them than you can ? For he that changes inconsiderately , gives no proof , either of his Parts , or of his Integrity . Do you hope , by altering your Religion , to escape Troubles and Sufferings ? This is an ill course to be taken for such a purpose , and not likely to succeed , because God can find you out , and has ways enough to punish you . Besides , you are assured you shall not be forced to relinquish the Profession or Exercise of your Religion , by a Royal Promise . A Promise , which fully performed , will attract greater repute and glory to the Roman Religion , than all the Arguments and Devices , the most learned and subtil Adherers to that See , did ever invent . So that you have nothing , under which you may shelter your Apostacy , nothing to patronize your Revolt . And to Apostatise without a Temptation , is at once both a Folly and Wickedness , that nothing can match on either account . 2. Those , who pretending to the Church of England , have by an extravigant fervency , and unneighbourly earnestness , done all that was in their power to impoverish , macerate , and render their follow Protestants uneasie and comfortless : These I would intreat to think with sedateness on what they have done , how much they have injured the Protestant Interest , and what a stroke they have laid the Communion to which they pretended , open unto ? 'T is high time you to betake your selves to a deep Humiliation , godly Sorrow , and sound Repentance for what you have done ; yea , to take care you manifest your Humiliation and Repentance in so solemn and publick a manner , as may bear some proportion to the Notoriety of your fault . What inexcusable wrong have you done to the Protestant Cause ? What a dreadful blow have you given the Church of England ? Have you not made it thus to totter ? Have you not laid it almost irrecoverably prostrate ? What wounds like those which were made by pretended Friends ! Go not about to contrive excuses , to palliate the mischief you have done , no verbal Apology can make amends for your Crime . Repent and weep , and pray and reform , and this speedily , thorowly aggrevate your guilt , take shame to your selves publickly , and by hearty Repentance , and thorow Reformation , hasten to put a stop to those Inundations of Judgments you have made way for ; this is the least you ought to do . Remember that Heathens and Jews , in prosecuting the Old Christians ; and the Romanists in persecuting Protestants , have this excuse above you , that they never persecuted for things which they themselves acknowledged to be meerly indifferent . As you have not been afraid to commit these evil things against your Fellow Protestants , with a high hand , and in the sight of the Sun ; so be not now ashamed to make your Repentance as open and visible : neither be averse , by restitution to the utmost of your power , to make satisfaction for all your unjust and merciless exactions . What have you wrung and squeez'd from others in an violent arbitrary way ? How many have you impoverish't , and reduc't to utmost extremities ; and this for things , which at the same time you could not but acknowlede , were not worth one hair of any Man's Head ? Suffer not the Wages of unrighteonsness to remain in any of your Hands , or in any of your Houses ; but by faithful restitution , do the best you can to secure your selves from the dreadful Recompences such Wickednesses do expose you unto . If you make not the best satisfaction you are able , to those you have wronged , what can you expect , but that God will remember your doings against you , and that you shall perish for ever like your own dung ? He hath swallowed down Riches , and he shall vomit them up again , God shall cast them out of his Belly . Job . 20. 15. Have you not just reason to be afraid , least Divine Vengeance should overtake you on the sudden ; and that God should make the Land spew out such Inhabitants ? Wherefore let my Counsel be acceptable unto you , and break off your Sins by Righteousness , and your Iniquities , by shewing Mercy to the Poor , if it may be a lengthening of your Tranquility , Dan. 4. 27. 3. Those who dissent from the Church of England : These I would desire to take care , they do not resent their former unkind Treatment with any exorbitances , nor suffer the remembrance thereof to alienate them from their Protestant Brethren of the other Communion . Do not indulge to your Passions , nor keep at any greater distance than needs you must . Be not hurried into any unadvised compliances , on the one Hand ; or stifness on the other . Permit not wrath or revenge to have any place in you , much less , to transport you into any unchristian indecencies . Fall not your selves into what you have perceived to have no comliness in the Conformist Party . Fall not out one with another : improve the Ease , Freedom , and Liberty you injoy , for the real Interest of Religion . Be not concerned to make Parties ; neither be over-warm for Notions or Practices which have no plain and express warrant in Scripture . Let us all unite , and be brotherly affectioned one towards another . Let us lay aside and cast from us , with utmost dislike , all our Animosities , carnal Interests , and unjust Prejudices on every hand . Let us wholly mind the things of Christ , and bear on anothers burthens ; leave all Indifferencies just as Christ hath left them ; make the Scriptures our only Rule , and lay no more stress on any particulars , than Christ himself hath laid on them . Let us all pray earnestly , improve diligently , both the Instructions of the Holy Scriptures , and the present Calls of Providence . Let us all humble our selves duly under the Mighty Hand of God ; search into , and try our Hearts and our Ways , and turn to the Lord from all our evil doings , with our whole might . Let us all be of one mind , striving together for the Faith of the Gospel ; and let us follow after Peace with all Men , and Holiness ; without which none must see the Lord. Then will the Lord return and be gracious : And the Ransomed of the Lord shall return , and come to Zion with Songs , and everlasting Joy upon their Heads . They shall obtain Joy and Gladness , and Sorrow and Sighing shall flee away . Isal . 35. 10. AN ACCOUNT Of the FIRST RISE of the Name Protestant , &c. MAimburgh ( in his History of the League ) having occasion to take notice of a Story , which had been published , and had passed very currently a long time without contradiction , for which he could find no warrant ; after he had made a full inquiry about it , makes this Remark : This in reason should give a caution to such as undertake the writing of a History , not to trust all sorts of Writers , and not ambitiously to swell their Works with all they find written in certain unauthentick Memoirs , without giving themselves the leisure to examine their merit and their quality . Pag. 169. Had this Author himself exactly remembred , and strictly kept to this hint in all his Writings , he would have done much to have rais'd himself a lasting honourable Reputation , he would have greatly befriended and obliged the present Generation and Posterity , none could have had good warrant to write against him , his Histories would have been more considerable for their Truth , than now they be for their Stile . And if others , who pretend to mislike misrepresenting , had but carefully observed this Rule of Main-burgh's , with others of the like import , Christians , the most innocent , and of greatest worth , could not have been so injuriously asperst and bespattered , as of late they have been by several hands . Whatever complaints and outcries may be rais'd against the Protestants , as if they were not candid and just enough in the Accounts they give the World of the Romanist's Faith , Worship , and Practice ; though we should allow , that in some particulars , particular Writers have exceeded , and not kept within such moderate bounds as they would have done , had they followed the examples of our most Learned and Judicious Authors ; who beyond contradiction , have proved more against their Adversaries than we do ordinarily expresly charge them with ; yet upon supposition that some of our Writers have been faulty this way , they are not the only Persons guilty ; and of all people in the world , the Romanists have the least reason to insist on a charge of this nature ; for though their fault doth not excuse any of our Writers , if guilty in the same manner , yet it renders them very unmeet to upbraid and reproach , and make tragical complaints against others , for what they are more enormiously faulty in themselves . It is but too obvious , that some pains have been taken of late , to misrepresent the Protestants all over , and to perswade the world into a belief of very odd and strange things both concerning their Persons and Religion , yea , the very Name by which they are every where known . Indeed the word Protestant , and its Rise , have been so decyphered and represented under such ungrateful Characters , by persons of one complexion and of another , that some ( who , it might have been expected , had had more knowledge , and more wit ) have been almost , or rather , quite ashamed of that Name which their Ancestors accounted an honour , and by which the Religion they pretend to , is every where known : what thoughts such have of the Religion it self , time may discover . Who would ever have thought that Englishmen , who had a long time , or rather , all their time been brought up in the Church of England , and would fain have made a Figure in their Countries , should yet be at a loss by what name to call the Religion they did profess ; certainly the common name might have past well enough , had not some unjust prejudice prevail'd : And it 's very probable , this prejudice did take its Rise from one or others misrepresenting , and giving a wrong account of that Name . Those who prefess true and unmixt Christianity , have for a great while , been distinguished in most parts of the World , by the name of Protestants ; from others , who have mingled with a profession of Christianity a great many gross contradictions and inconsistencies : And till now of late , none who owned the Religion , were ashamed of the Name : Those who liked not the Romish Communion , did not think it a reproach to be called Protestants . Though the Name might be first devised by the Adversaries of our Religion , and might be used by them at first in scorn and contempt , with reference to those who would not imbrace and submit to all the forreign and unscriptural Notions and Practices which received life and authority from Rome ; yet the antient love to , and zeal for Religion , only as commanded by divine Authority , and as warranted by those Books which are universally acknowledged by all Christians to be writ by men divinely inspired , reconciled our Ancestors to that Name by which the Adversaries of their Religion would have redicul'd them out of their Profession . And how it is come to pass , that people professing the same Religion , should now appear shy , and boggle at the Name , as if some dreadful and hideous matter were wrapt up in the word Protestant , I cannot imagine , unless either their love to , and zeal for their Religion , be less than their Ancestor's was ; or that some false representations have been made to them of the importance and first occasion of this Name . What sort of writers have contributed most to create prejudices in mens minds against the name Protestant , I will not determine : but I do not lay all the fault of misrepresenting in this case , on those who do openly profess themselves of the Romish Communion ; and yet I cannot wholly excuse them , because of late , they have been at no small study and trouble to perswade people to entertain very wrong Idea's both of the Protestant Name and Religion . We are lately told , that The Protestant Perswasion has its Name , Being , and Support , not from what it is in it self , but from what it is not , in defying and protesting against their Neighbours . Rep. in behalf of Amicable Accomod . pag. 17. Now it may not be altogether improper , in order to the setting of some weaker people right in their apprehensions , to give a short and true account of the first occasion and rise of this Name Protestant , and its general use ever since , from Authors of the best credit and repute on each side . And that this Account may be the more clear and distinct , it will be requisite to observe in general , That a great corruption had for many Ages overspread Christianity , in the Romish Church . Afterwards we may take notice , how Princes and People were more directly prepared to renounce and cast off those Corruptions ; and then it will be proper to relate the particular matter of Fact which occasioned this Name Protestant : and when these are dispatched , you shall hear what Protestantism is , and wherein Protestantism doth really consist . The word Protestant is a forreign word , derived to us from other people ; and it has been , and is still used with relation to Religion , in all Nations where it is mentioned . So that every where , those who have owned and professed the Protestant Religion , have past currently with all sorts of people for Protestants . And the Protestant Religion is the true Christian Religion , rescued and reformed from those Corruptions and humane Additions the Church of Rome had for many Ages , without good warrant , intermixed with it . The Mystery of Iniquity , which began in the Apostles days , did by degrees increase to that height in the Roman Church , that it almost overwhelmed true Christianity , and made Religion appear , and be in the world little else than a trick of policy , and a meer piece of Pageantry . And when the people had been a great while inured to nothing but lifeless Superstitious Formalities , and were brought up blindly in a superstitious , carnal , gay sort of practice , which was called Worship , the Bishops of that See did by several artifices and tricks , first acquire , and then improve opportunities , to gratifie their own utmost and unreasonable ambition : for the Princes and People were in many places so effeminated , made so soft and easie , and unthinking by their methods , they very tamely and patiently gave way to their most unjust incroachments , till at last they were not able to help themselves , nor oppose the increasing greatness of that See. And when matters were brought to this pass , then several points were forced on the whole Western Church ; the burthen of which , the Inhabitants of those parts had never before felt ; and which those who first gave way to the Usurpations of that See , never dream't of . Now an universal Supremacy over the whole Church was challenged , and a power pretended , to make whatever pleas'd a Duty . In short , the Bishop of that See pretended an Infallibility , which must not be call'd in question ; he assum'd a power to dispose of People's Sins and Souls as he thought fit , and perswaded them he could consecrate any thing they would buy , to be an effectual means to purge away their guilt . Nay , at last he claimed a power to dispose of Governments , appropriating to himself a Superiority in every Prince's Dominions ; and both Princes and People were blinded to that degree , through the Ignorance , Superstitions , and Impurity which they had given way to , and the just infatuation which God suffered to crawl on and over-power them , that for a long time , very few , either of the Princes or People , did make any considerable attempts to extricate themselves out of that Bondage , or get rid of the Tyranny and Apostacy into which they were sunk . But the time hastening on , when God would deliver his People out of of that wretched estate : The Head and principal Instruments of the Romish State were grown so secure and fearless of danger , they gave up themselves to their Lusts , and minded nothing but how to invent new ways to impoverish the people ; by which means they occasioned the people to awake , and suggested to their minds the most powerful and justest prejudices against the way they were in , and that Church they did then adhere to . For though there were many beams of light which shone up and down in the world , yet two things did principally dispose the people to cast off that Spiritual and Civil Yoke which had mightily gall'd both their Consciences and their Necks , and to inquire after the Truth and Purity of Religion . The first , was the obvious , prodigious Ignorance , Sloth , and beastly Sensuality and Debauchery of the generality of those who pretended they had the keeping of the people's Souls and Consciences ; the Wickedness , Tyranny , and Unsatiableness of the greatest part , by far , of the Clergy , was such as struck most violently on the outward senses of the People : So that they were forced to conclude , God would not intrust any extraordinary Depositum with such persons . A German Bishop , in the year 1519 ( which was not long before the Reformation , ) complains ( as in Museccle I find him quoted ) in this manner : I am afraid the Doctrine of the Apostle , touching the Qualifications of a Bishop , is but very ill observed in these days , or rather , that we are fallen into those Times which he noted , when he said , I know that after my Departure Ravenous Wolves will come among you , not sparing the Flock . Where may one see a good Man chosen to be a Bishop ? One approved by his Works and his Learning : And any one , who is not either a Child , or Worldly , or ignorant in Spiritual things ? They have no love for ony but Sinners , they despise the Poor , they keep about their persons Pimps , Debauchers of Women , Flatterers , Buffoons , Players , when they should have wise and holy Men. The Revenues of the Church are given , not to the Servants of God , but to those of the Devil , to Debauchers of Women , to Adulterers , Gamesters , Hunters , Flatterers , and such like Men. And hence it is , that the House of God is become Tributary to the Devil . Matthew Paris , I remember , speaking in his History , of the corruption and wickedness of the Clergy , saith , It was risen to so infamous a height , the Devil sent them Letters of Thanks , because of the extraordinary service they did him , in sending Souls to Hell in greater Troops than ever came thither before . You may find large accounts of , and complaints against their notorious wickedness in the Writings of Nic. de Clemang . and others . Several of the Popish Writers do acknowledge , their Debauchery and Wickedness was such , as did necessitate the people to seek after a Reformation . And truly ( saith Meceray ) the extream Ignorance of the Clergy , many of them scarce able to read ; the scandalons Lives of the Pastors , most of them Concubinaries , Drunkards , and Userers ; and their extream negligence gave him ( viz. Luther ) a fair advantage to perswade the people , that the Religion they taught , was corrupt , since their Lives and Examples were so bad . A second thing which very much awaken'd the Princes and People , and prepar'd them to cast off and renounce the Romish Trumpery , was the Pope's , Bishop's , and other Ecclesiastical Officers most enormious prostituting those very things wherein they pretended to place very much of their Religion , and by which they pretended to impart to the people the Merits of Jesus Christ , and of the Saints . For Leo the Tenth having a mind to raise great Summs of Mony to satisfie his own profuse humour , and make large Provisions for his Kindred , sent abroad his Agents through the Empire , but especially in Germany , to sell the pardon of Sins publickly , under pretence to build the Church of St. Peters at Rome . The Sellers of these Indulgencies , did prostitute them at the strangest rate imaginable ; for they would sell them for any thing wherewith they might satisfie their Lusts . They would play them away at Taverns ; at a Game at Dice , they would stake a Man against so much Money , the Pardon of his sins , or a power to deliver Souls out of Purgatiry . And when this was complained of , and wrote against by Luther , the Pope sent his Bull to confirm these Indulgencies , asserting his power to give and divulge them in this manner . By the power of the Keys given to St. Peter and his Successors , the Bishops of Rome , had a right to pardon the Faithful all the guilt and punishment of their Actual Sins ; to wit , the guilt , by means of the Sacrament of Pennance ; and the temporal Punishment by means of Indulgencies , whether in this life , or in Purgatory : and that by those Indulgencies , he could apply to the Living and the Dead , the superabundance of the Merits of Jesus Christ and the Saints , either by way of Absolution , or by way of Suffrage . So that the Living and the Dead participating of those Indulgencies , were delivered from the punishment that the Divine Justice would inflict on them for their Actual Sins . But Luther's contending this point with the Romish Agents , put him and others on a more strict Inquiry into other Corruptions in that Church : by which means Light broke forth dayly with more power , to the full satisfaction of very many , that there was an absolute necessity of a Reformation . And the Agents being not able to contest the matter fairly with Luther , Eccius and others being quite worsted and baffled in their arguings , Sylvester Prierias positively insisted on the Pope's authority , acknowledging the Scriptures did not warrant those Indulgencies , but that the Pope did , whose authority , he asserted , was above the Scriptures . And thus he brought that point on the stage , which upon examination , appearing to be a meer cheat and gross untruth , the people hastened to imbrace the Sufficiency of the Scripture , and that the Holy Scriptures were the only Rule God had appointed Christians to guide themselves by in all matters of Religion , in opposition to the Pope's pretended authority . This , of the Pope's authority , being the point , for which both Head and Members of that Church were mainly concerned , and which supports and keeps all the other corruptions in that Church , in life , when the vanity and ungroundedness , the absurdity and wickedness of that claim came to be exposed and laid open to the World , the Interest of that Church did very mueh sink , and the authority of Scripture was much advanced amongst people . So that the Pope , notwithstanding all his Letters and Stratagems to destroy Luther , and hinder the spreading of that Light which was now broken forth , could not effect his design ; but knowledge increased every day , and the authority of the Scripture was much insisted on , to the great damage of the Pope and his Adherents . 'T is true , the Pope by his Letters and Nuncio's , did prevail with the Emperour , and some of the Princes of Germany , to make an Edict , when they were assembled at Worms , which forbad Luther Fire and Water , and the commerce of all the World ; it extended also to all his Favourers and Followers , and Complices : but the more violent the Pope and and his people were against Luther , and the greater stir they kept with the Princes to see the Edict of Worms strictly executed , the greater number of Friends God raised up for Luther and his Followers . For the Princes assembled at Nuremberg , declared they could not put the Pope's Bull , nor the Edict of Worms in execution , without involving themselves in great dangers , and that the generality of the people were so sensible how matters stood , having their eyes opened by the writings of the Lutherans , that if they should execute those Sentences , the people would believe they were only made to overthrow the Truth of the Gospel , and to maintain and defend their evil abuses and impieties , &c. And having drawn up this their Answer in form of an Edict , they sent their grievances to the Pope , to the number of an hundred Articles , which they call'd , Centum Gravamina . After this , another Assembly of the Princes publish'd another declaration in form of an Imperial Edict , which extreamly provok't the Pope and all his Creatures . Upon this the Pope complained to the Emperour by Letters ; and to animate him the more , he perswaded him that that was a manifest breach of his Authority , and a form and design to withdraw themselves intirely from his Obedience : the Emperour is hereby prevailed with to concern himself in the matter ; and accordingly , writes very preremptorily to the Princes , requiring them to execute the Edict of 〈◊〉 , and make void that of Nuremberg . And this brings me to to the very Rise of the Name Protestant ; an Account of which I will give you in the englished words of a Forreign Divine , who hath very faithfully collected his Relation out of the most celebrated and authentick Historians who have writ the Affairs of those Times . His Account is thus . In the Month of April , in the Year 1529 , an Assembly of the Princes and other States of Germany was held at Spire ; whether Pope Clement did not sail to send a Nuncio : the first thing they did there , was to reject the Assembly at the City of Strasburgh , under pretence that it had abolished the use of the Mass , without waiting for the Imperial Diet. This violent procedure was quickly after followed by a Decree , that Ferdinand Arch-Duke of Austria , and some other Princes who took part with the Court of Rome made , and whom the Emperour had expresly chozen for his Deputy Commissioners . They ordained therefore in the first place , that those who till then had observed the Edict of Worms , that is to say , who not only had not received the Reformation , but who had persecuted it with all their might , should for the future do the like , and force their Subjects to do the same : And that as for those , in whose Countries those new Doctrines had been spread abroad , provided they could not extirpate them , without putting themselves into manifest danger of stirring up Troubles , it should be their part , at least , to hinder any thing more from being Innovated , till the calling of a Council . Secondly , They ordained , that above all things , the Doctrine which opposed the Substantial Presence , should neither be propounded nor received by any in all the compass of Germany , and that the Mass should not be abrogated . In the Third place , they decreed , that they should not allow Preachers in any place to explain the Gospel otherwise than by the Interpretation of the Fathers . In fine , they ordained grievous penalties against the Printers and Booksellers who should print or vend , for the future , the Books that contained that new Doctrine . The other Princes and States of the Empire beholding this manifest Oppression , thought themselves bound to make an Act of Protestation to the contrary : They Remonstrated therefore , that that new Decree contradicted that which had been passed in the preceding Assembly , where every one was to be free in respect of his Religion ; that they did not pretend to hinder the other Princes and States from enjoying that Liberty ; but that on the contrary , they pray'd God that He would give them the knowledge of His Truth : That they could not , with a good Conscience , approve of the Reason , for which they would allow them to retain the Evangelical Doctrine , to wit , least they should fall into new Troubles ; for that would be to confess , that it would be good to renounce that Doctrine , if it could be done without Tumult ; which would be a criminal and wicked Confession , and a tacit Denyal of the Word of God. That as to the Mass , those who had abolish't it , and who had re-established in its place the lawful use of the Supper of our Lord , were led by the Institution of our Lord Jesus Christ . That as for the Doctrine that opposed the Real Presence , they did not believe , that they ought lightly to condemn those who held it , without hearing them ; and that proceeding was against Equity , especially in a matter of so great consequence . In fine , that they could not consent to that Decree , offering the Reasons of their carriage to the Emperour and all the World. That they did appeal to a Free Council , and that in waiting for it , they would do nothing for which they should justly deserve any blame . — This Act of Protestation was made at Spire , the 19th . of April , 1529. And from thence came the Name of Protestants ; which has been since given to all those who have embraced the Reformation . This is the true Account of the first Rise of this Name Protestant ; which was used by way of reproach by those who adhered to the Romish Corruptions , and asserted the Pope's Authority above the Scripture , towards them who renounced those Corruptions , and protested against the Pope's Supremacy , and for the Sufficiency and sole Authority of the Scripture . And this Name hath ever since been applied to , and appropriated by them who have renounced Popish Corruptions , and especially , that great Fundamental Article of the Supremacy , because of their contradiction to , and derogating from the Holy Scriptures . The best Historians , both Protestant and Popish , do confirm the Truth of this Relation ; and that all people have promiscuously past in all Countries under the Name of Protestants , who have renounced the Pope's Authority , and that Body or System of false Doctrines and superstitious Practices , which are maintained and justified in the Romish Church , because of their contradiction unto Scripture . For the Name Protestant is a common Title to discriminate all those who renounce and forsake the Romish Communion , because of its contradiction to the Holy Scripture , from those who do own , and are of that Communion . But it was not designed to descriminate one sort of people renouncing and protesting against that Communion on the aforesaid Account , from others who agree in the same Point . And therefore in every Age and Nation , other Names have been made use of to discriminate Protestants one from another , according to the matter in difference betwixt them . True Protestantism then consisteth more especially in two Points . First , Protesting against , and renouncing Popish Corruptions , and especially all such Infallibility , Supremacy , and Authority as the Bishops of Rome have , for some Ages , laid a claim to . It is the renouncing the thing it self , which Protestantism chiefly respects ; its reference to such a particular person , is only accidental , by reason of his audacious and arrogant challenging that Power . But Protestantism would be equally against the Claim , if that Bishop should lay it down , and any other , either in France , or in any other Countrey , should challenge it ; or if it should be pretended to be lodged in any other Man , or Body of Men. Secondly , Protesting for the Sufficiency and Authority of the Scripture : That the Holy Scripture is a safe and full Rule for the Instruction of us in all things needful to be known or done in order to Eternal Life ; and that nothing ought to be admitted as an Article of Christian Faith ; which cannot , by just consequence , be proved by this Rule , according as the Church of England expresseth her self . Article 6. In these two things Protestantism doth consist ; the denial and renouncing of the Pope's arrogated Supremacy , and all those Superstructions which have no foundation but that Authority ; and the owning and adhering to the Scriptures , as the only compleat Rule of Religion : This is the great , fundamental , positive Principle in Protestantism . For Protestantism doth not take away an andue , boundless Power and Authority from the Pope , and conser it on another person . It ascribes indeed to the Supream Power in every Nation , what belongs to the same , according to the constitution of the Government ; protesting against all forreign and every unjust pretence and claim , to the prejudice of the rightful Owner . And it asserts the only right of the Scripture to be the Rule that every Supream Power on Earth should observe in restoring and reforming Religion , as occasions are offered , by reason of the Decays or Corruptions which may have prevailed . The Bible , I say , the Bible only is the Religion of Protestants , whatsoever else they Believe besides it , and the plain irrefragable , indubitable Consequences of it ; well may they hold it as a matter of Opinion ; but as matter of Faith and Religion , neither can they , with coherence to their own grounds , Believe it themselves , nor require the Belief of it of others , without most high and Schismatical Presumption . And now , seeing Protestantism doth mainly , or rather , only consist in asserting the Holy Scriptures to be the Rule , the only Rule , by which all Christians are to govern and manage themselves in all matters of Religion . So that no Doctrine is to be owned as an Article of Faith , on any account , but what hath very plain warant and sound evidence from the Scriptures ; nor no instance of Religious Worship to be owned or submitted to , as necessary ; nor any thing to be entertained as a part of Religion , but what the Scripture doth appoint and warrant . It may not be altogether unuseful , to inquire briefly , whether this Principle be really justifiable , or no ? Or , whether those who are called Protestants , on this Account , be truly in the right , touching this matter ? For , if we be right in this Point , then the great Fundamental opposite Point of our Adversaries must needs have a slaw in it , and cannot be solid and substantial ; and consequently , all the particular Doctrines and Practices , which have their whole being and Dependance on that Authority , must necessarily expire , and give up the Ghost . Now much might be offered to evince , that Protestants have very good ground to rest assured , that they are not mistaken in this matter : but I will only offer these few considerations ; which being well considered and improved , may suffice to satisfie any unprejudiced and imp●●tial honest meaning person , that Protestantism is not a ●●mersome precarious thing , but is really accompanied with the greatest evidence and certainty any Perswasion can justly pretend unto . First , It is universally acknowledged , by all who profess themselves Christians , that the Holy Scriptures , viz. those Books contained in the Old and New Testament , as received by Protestants , are the Word of God , and were written at the appointment of God , for the constant Use and Benefit of his Church and People , by Persons Divinely Inspired for that purpose . Secondly , Supposing ( but not granting ) that those Scriptures do not contain the whole Revelation God hath made of his Mind and Will , for the constant , perpetual , and obliging Use of his Church ; yet it is most evident , that these Scriptures are a safe and most certain Rule in Matters of Religion , so far as they do extend . They are a certain Rule touching those matters of which they do treat , and so far as they do treat of them . So that there can be no just pretence of a Divine Revelation for any Doctrines or Practices which are inconsistent with , or contradictory to what God hath declared in these Scriptures : Because the Divine Veracity and Truth , which is Essential to the Deity , cannot permit , that God should contradict himself . All that can be pretended , with reference to this matter , is , that God may make more Declarations of his Will ; and either inlarge the Discoveries He hath made of his Will touching particulars already made known ; or add Declarations of His Mind concerning Matters which He doth not at all discourse of in the Scriptures . But it is not consistent with the Natural Notions of a Deity , not with the Revelations God hath made any way of Himself , that He should overthrow the Truth of a Former Revelation by a Latter , or that Contradictions should be reconcileable in His Will. For any Man to affirm that a Divine Revelation may contradict any thing taught in the Scriptures , whil'st he professeth these Scriptures are pure Divine Revelations , is not only to involve himself in most obvious and horrid Absurdities , but to contract upon himself , to burthen and overwhelm himself with the guilt of the most plain and unnatural Blasphemy against God. If any thing that plainly contradicts the Scripture , can be a Divine Revelation , then a Man may be indispensibly obliged to Believe , and not to Believe the same thing ; to do , and not to do the same work . And so Man will be brought under such Circumstances , that whether he Believe , or do not Believe ; whether he Practice , or do not Practice , it will be the same thing , he will be equally guilty . But certainly , if our Adversaries can pretend to Revelations which do contradict the Scriptures , they cannot pretend to lay any Obligation on us to comply with them in those Matters which the Scriptures do contradict ; for we have every jot as good Authority to Believe and Practice in direct contradiction to them , as they have to Believe and Act in express contradiction to us , though we should condescend to an impossible Supposition , viz. That a Divine Revelation may contradict the Scriptures . Besides , they have no need or occasion to trouble themselves to prevail with us to comply with them in their Points ; for ( supposing their Revelations to be as they prerend ) whether we comply , or do not comply , the Case is just the same ; for we are never the better if we do comply with them ; nor is our guilt and offence one jot the more , if we do not comply . But if what they call Divine Revelations , be not really so ; and they will , notwithstanding , Believe or Act , or both , in contradiction to the Scriptures , which are known , owned , and professed Divine Revelations ; let them seriously consider what is like to be the fruit of their so doing . We have reason therefore to conclude , that all those Doctrines and Practices which are inconsistent with , and do contradict what is declared in the Holy Scripture , have not a Divine Original , but have their Rise from the fountain of Falshood and Untruth : And therefore we cannot be justly blamed , if we protest against and reject such Notions and Practices ; for we certainly have a good Foundation and just Authority for every part of our Religion , which Scripture doth expresly and plainly warrant . And they must needs be at a great loss for just Authority , as to those Points which expresly contradict the Scripture , whatever may become of those Points amongst them , touching which , they may conceive the Scripture is silent . But lastly , If the Holy Scriptures we are speaking of , do contain the whole and intire Revelation of the Mind and Will of God , which he hath designed for the constant and perpetual use of his Church and People , and do furnish People with full Instructions and Directions in all Matters of Religion , then Protestants have very good warrant to affirm and stedfastly adhere to this Point , viz. That the Holy Scriptures are the only Rule we are to govern our selves by in all Matters of Religion . And we are safe enough as to this part of our main Principle ; and cannot , with any justice , be reproached or blamed by our Adversaries on this Account , till they can produce very good and substantial evidence for some other Divine Revelation really distinct from those we are discoursing of . But this is a task so hard for them to undertake , so impossible for them to perform , that there is not one understanding person in that Communion ( I am perswaded ) who dares adventure to ingage in it . For it will not serve the turn to talk honourably of Tradition in general , nor to make a noise about Apostolical Traditions , without mentioning particular Traditions , and proving them to be Divine Revelations , and that they are truly Apostolical , and were by Divine Appointment set apart for the perpetual use of the Christian Church . The Council of Trent speaks loud of Apostolical Traditions , and advances them to the same degree with the Holy Scriptures , and appears so resolv'd for these Traditions , that she makes them necessary to compleat the Scripture , in order unto its being a perfect Rule : but alas , her courage cool'd in a little time , for she dared only to talk extravagantly , and in excessive terms of Tradition in General ; she dared not to name particular Traditions , which she would own and undertake to prove truly Apostolical , and of Divine and constantly binding Authority to the Church . And since she thought it not convenient to descend to particulars , I am of opinion , particular persons in that Communion will not care to meddle in the matter , but rather chuse to refer it to another Council , when they can get one : because , if they should undertake it , it must only be for our sakes ; and those of that Communion cannot but know , that nothing less will satisfie such cautious , reasonable people as Protestants are , in a matter of this nature , than such evidence , as is very substantial and proportionate to the thing to be proved . And could they produce ever so good evidence for any particular they will call a Divine Revelation , or Apostolical Tradition , it would be of no use to those of their own Church , who prefer particular Humane Testimony , called by another Name , before all sort of proper and suitable evidence . And after all their pains , though they could produce satisfactory evidence ( which I affirm to be utterly impossible in this case ) for some Tradition which would inforce some Point the Scriptures do not inforce yet this would not do them any service , however it would weaken our Principle , as touching the Perfect on of that Body of Divine Revelations we have : For notwithstanding , we should , in obedience to a Divine Revelation , though roughly proved and evidenced , concur and joyn with them in some Point we did not imbrace before ; yet the difference betwixt them and us in that matter , would be as great as before ; there would still remain a formal difference betwixt us touching this very particular ; because , though we should Believe or Practice the same thing , yet the formal Reason of Believing or Doing it , would be totally different . So that if any would attempt to produce substantial evidence for any Revelation distinct from the Scriptures , their labour will be wholly useless , with reference to their Church , unless they can produce a Revelation relating to their Church , like that Law the flattering Courtiers of an Eastern Prince told him they could find , when they were at a loss for a particular Law , to warrant some particular Practice the Prince was inclined unto ; though they knew of no Law relating to what was propos'd , yet there was a Law , that the Prince might Command and do what he pleased . Such a Revelation our Adversaries must produce , ( Indeed , I am apprehensive , they Act in that Communion , as if they had such a Revelation ; but all the mischief is , they cannot produce valid proof for it ) or else they must be at the trouble of providing distinct Revelations for the several Points in dispute , and distinct Evidence , unless they can make a shift to croud three or four of their Notions into a single Tradition , and so make shorter work of it . In short , the Protestants do affirm , That Divine Revelation is the only Rule of Christian Religion : That the Holy Scriptures are confessedly Divine Revelations : That these Holy Scriptures do contain all those Divine Revelations God hath appointed to be of perpetual standing , obliging Use to his Church and People . We acknowledge , that were it possible for our Adversaries to produce solid proof , that there is any Divine Revelation distinct from what these Holy Scriptures do contain , which God hath appointed to be of constant , perpetual , binding Use to his Church , they might thereby invalidate our Principle , which doth affirm , that the Holy Scriptures are the Only Rule by which Christians are to govern themselves in all Matters of Religion : But yet we affirm , their doing this , would not really advantage their Cause ; because the same Formal difference would remain betwixt them and us after , as before ; for though we should be obliged , on their exhibiting such proof for some particular Revelation , which should warrant and oblige to own and use some Doctrine or Practice at present in dispute betwixt us ; yet the agreement which would then seem to be betwixt them and us , in that particular , would only be material , and not formal ; because we should then own the Doctrine or Practice , what is injoyned , purely because taught and commanded by a Divine Revelation , throughly evidenced : And they would own the Doctrine or Practice , the Duty injoyned , purely because taught and commanded by a meer Humane Authority , which they are pleased to name Infallible . And it will not be to any purpose , for them to undertake a more quick dispatch in this matter , by talking of an Infallible Judge , for he cannot be Judge and Rule too : There must be Divine Revelation , which must be the Rule for their Infallible Judge to exercise and imploy his Infallible Judgment about . And seeing all their attempts to prove their Infallible Judge by Scripture , have been very unfortunate , and without success . I may take it for granted , when once they have agreed together , and found out their Infallible Judge , their best proof that that Person , or Body of Men ( which ever they shall agree upon ) is a Judge , and an Infallible Judge in Matters of Religion , must be some new Revelation , or some old Tradition never hitherto known to be a Divine Revelation ; for we must have better proof than any that has yet been offered on the behalf of any of their Traditions , before we can entertain them as Divine Revelations . And when they have well proved that Tradition , and its Divine Authority , which shall fix and settle their Infallible Judge , they must still be at the trouble and pains to produce very substantial proof for every other Tradition they will make a part of the Christian Rule . For the Authority of their Infallible Judge will not do here , because his Infallibility does not reach to make , nor declare a Rule , but is purely concerned about the true sense and meaning of an acknowledged Rule , when Controversies do arise about the importance of any Expressions contained in that Rule . But besides all this , Protestants have such evidence , as doth create certain assurance , that the Holy Scriptures are fully Perfect , to instruct and direct Believers in all matters of Religion , and do contain all those Divine Revelations God hath appointed to be of necessary and perpetual Use unto his Church : greater evidence cannot be desired , than the express Witness , Testimony , and Declaration of the unerring Spirit of the Faithful and True God. And this we have most plainly , to the unavoidable and full Conviction of every honest , piously disposed , ingenious , and unprejudiced Person , who really owns and believes the Holy Scriptures are the Word of God : And this , you heard before , is the professed Belief of all who profess themselves Christians . And if such kind of evidence will not serve peoples turns , I must acknowledge , they are of a temper I do not much care to deal with ; for I must confess , I am no preat admirer of booted blunderbus Apostles ; nor do I think he makes any real Proselites , who only dragoon's Men into a Perswasion : I never lik'd murthering Men for Religion ; nor persecuting Men , because their Consciences would not stretch to every body's phancy . I think , whil'st the Scriptures are acknowledged , on all sides , to be Divine Revelations , the greatest and best evidence we can have , in matters of Religion , is plain and express Scripture . And if in all our Disputes with our Adversaries , we did strictly keep within this compass , we should guard and maintain our owe Cause the better , and wound our Adversaries Cause the more fatally : not but that I am very sensible , we have Antiquity , the Fathers , rhe Primitive Writers , and the most General Councils on our side , either expresly , or by way of silence ; thereby certifying us , that no such Points were known , or in question in those days . But alas ! by having ordinary recourse to the Fathers , &c. we mightily gratifie our Adversaries ; for hereby they get out of the immediate reach of the Sword of the Spirit : And all the Testimonies of Antiquity taken together , in their own strength , will not do rhe thousandth part of that execution against a Heresy , as one plain and express Scripture will. Besides , how often do we see , that when the greatly Read and Learned , on both sides , do fall together by the Ears over the Fathers , they lengthen the Dispute beyond measure ; and not only bewilder the Hearer or Reader , but even themselves too ; that by the time they are got half through the Dispute , they have well night forgot what it was they began to dispute about . And having slipt into this digression , I may even adventure to hint one digression more , relating to the common way of managing Controversies with our Adversaries , the Romanists . It may be , if it be well inquired into , it may appear , that we do not ordinarily proceed in our Controversial Discourses with them , in that free and ingenious manner we ought , but do too much limit and straighten our selves . According to that little measure of apprehension I have , it seems to me most expedient and most proper for us , in opposing our Adversaries , to maintain Protestantism , or the Protestant Doctrines , both really and professedly as such ; and not to pinnion our selves , by pretending to maintain them , as Taught or Owned by particular Communions . The Cause is a common Cause ; and the Arguments we can truly maintain it with , are common Arguments ; one Party is no more interested in them than another ; nor do the Matters in dispute amongst our selves , concern the Controversies betwixt us and our Common Adversaries . Why should we so affect and hug our selves in our private Notions , and particular Differences , as to please our selves with , or at least , receive and keep up the unreasonable Remembrance of them . Indeed , I do acknowledge the candor of our Adversaries , in that they have not improved the advantage they might have taken , to have made some Tragical Appearances , by falling upon us , with reference to this very matter , of undertaking to maintain Protestant Doctrines , meerly as owned by a particular Party : for what doth this properly import , but that we relinquish the Common Principle , and undertake , only to maintain our Doctrines , not by the Scripture , as the General and Only Rule of Christian Religion , but by the Scripture as limited and bounded by those discriminating Terms and Instances , whereby we are distinguished from all others , who take the Scripture to be the Only Rule in all Matters of Religion . Now , will not this , if insisted on , make our task the harder , and the more confound and perplex our Controversies ? But would it not seem odd for a Remonstrant , or a Contra-Remonstrant to defend Christianiry , or the particular Doctrines of Christianity , against Jews or Heathens , purely as a Remonstrant , or a Contra-Remonstrant ? For what have their particular differences to do in matters wherein they all agreed , and in maintaining of that , for which both sides are equally concerned ? The main of the Controversy betwixt us and those of the Romish Communion , is either , whether the Holy Scriptures be the Only Rule in all Matters of Religion ? Or , whether those particular Doctrines wherein they and we do differ , have warrant from the Scriptures ? And what need we , intreating on these points , to interest any discriminating notions amongst our selves ; As far as we do agree , let us walk by the same Rule . Besides , by concerning our selves for Protestantism , and Protestant Doctrines ( even in opposition to our Adversaries ) in common , as fixing the Scriptures to be the Only Rule , and that our particular Doctrine have plain warrant from the Scripture , and those we oppose , are either contrary to the Scriptures , or have no warrant at all from thence , we are excused from any obligation to trouble our selves with defending any unwary , or less proper expressions , which may have slipt from particular Parties , or particular Persons , in declaring their sense of particular Doctrines ; for whether they exprest themselves properly , or no ; or whether their opinion were right , or no , is not at all material to the Controversy betwixt those of the Church of Rome and us . For if any Parties , or single Persons , have declared their sense and opinions concerning any Doctrine , or matter of Practice , either that their opinion doth accord with Scripture , or it doth not : if it do , it is the Protestant Doctrine ; if it do not , it is not a Protestant Doctrine ; and so it doth not at all affect us ; since we own , that persons professing themselves Protestants , may mistake , as well as , we do declare our assurance , that those who have been named Infallible , in another Communion , have erred most grieviously . But this we affirm that so far as any do keep strictly and closely to the Holy Scriptures , they cannot mistake . And Protestants have no real concern to vindicate any Party , or Person , any further than they do keep unto the Scripture . But now to return from these digressions , unto what was said before , viz. That Protestants have such evidence , as doth create certain assurance , that the Holy Scriptures are fully perfect , to instruct and direct Believers in all matters of Religion , and do contain all those Divine Revelations God hath appointed to be of necessary and perpetual use unto his Church . I need not relate the whole evidence that might be produced on this occasion . I will therefore content my self with these two particulars , relating to this matter , which certainly must sway powerfully with them who are under an influence which is truly Religious . The first , is this : 1. That the Holy Spirit of God hath expresly declared , that the Holy Scriptures are compleat and perfect to all the ends and purposes of Divine Revelations . Hear how large and particular the Holy Spirit of God is , in declaring the Fullness and Perfection of the Scriptures . 2 Tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. And that from a Child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures , which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation , through Faith which is in Christ Jesus . All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God , and is profitable for Doctrine , for Reproof , for Correction , for Instruction in Righteousness ; that the Man of God may be Perfect , throughly furnished unto all Good Works . 2. The same Holy Spirit hath solemnly devoted to the most dreadful Curse of Almighty God , whomsoever shall be so arrogant and presumptuous , as to offer any other Doctrine besides what the Holy Scriptures do teach , as a Divine Revelation . Gal. 1. 8. But though we , or an Angel from Heaven , preach any other Gospel unto you , than that which we have preached unto you , let him be accursed . Now if people will pretend to produce other Divine Revelations , which God hath appointed to be of perpetual use to his Church ; either those must invalidate these Holy Scriptures ; or else these Holy Scriptures must invalidate them ; they cannot consist well together . If we will own and stick to the Holy Scriptures , we must reject whatever additional Discoveries shall be produced ; because , the Spirit hath , in these Scriptures , excluded them . What hath been discoursed concerning the evidence Protestants have for their great and main Principle , may justly promt to take notice of two things . 1. That they who would hinder and discourage people from reading and studying the Holy Scriptures , do give them just occasion to suspect , that they have none of the honestest and most commendable designs to manage . We are very certain , the Holy Prophets of God , the Lord Jesus Christ , and his Apostles , were Persons beloved of God , and Persons who were greatly concerned for Peoples Spiritual Welfare ; and we are as certain , that these were very much , and in good earnest , in pressing , exciting , and perswading the common sort of People to read and study the Scriptures ; they command them in the Name of God , to read and learn the Scriptures , and those Revelations of the Mind of God , which were communicated unto them ; read Deut. 31. 11 , 12 , 13. Deut. 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. John 5. 39. Col. 3. 16. Nay , does not the design and end for which God hath made his Will known , and caus'd it to be committed to Writing , manifest and prove our Duty evidently enough ? For what end hath God given the Holy Scriptures unto his Church and People ? Are we not assured that the Scriptures were written for our Learning , for our Instruction , for our Admonition ? &c. And must we not read them then ? How will they answer these ends , if we must not consult them ? Were not the Scriptures written for our Learning , that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures , might have Hope ? Read and consider Rom. 15. 4. Have we not then too much ground to suspect , that those who would take , or keep our Bibles from us , are Enemies to our Faith , Patience , Comfort , Hope , and Happiness ? Is not the Word of God that Sword of the Spirit , with which we are to defend our selves , and worst our Spiritual Enemies ? Ephes . 6. 17. And now what reason have we to take them for our Friends , who would lay us open , and expose us Naked to the Assaults of Sathan and his Instruments ? The Holy Penmen of the Scriptures did , by the direction of the Blessed Spirit , commend People for applying themselves to the Holy Scriptures , and endeavouring to improve in the knowledge of them . See Psal . 1. 2. Act. 17. 11. Act. 18. 24. 2 Tim. 3. 15. And it is certain , that the People of God ( of every rank and condition ) under the Old Testament Dispensation , were obliged by Especial Appointment from God , to take care to read , and labour after a continual Increase in the knowledge of the Scriptures . Now , can we imagine , that God having given us a larger Discovery of his Mind , doth dispence with our neglect to search the Scriptures . Can those who are against the Lay-Peoples reading of the Scripture , find any Command of Christ , requiring them not to read the Scripture ? Can they produce any Condemnation or Censure from the Prophets , from Christ , or from his Apostles , against those who shall read the Word of God ? Or can they make it appear , that any of these did ever commend People for their neglecting to read the Scripture ? If they cannot do any of all this , let their Pretences and Self-vindications touching this matter , be never so plausible , we may rest assured , there is nothing solid and substantial in what they say ; for there cannot be any Reason against God. The more subtle and cunning their Pretences are , the worse Men they manifest themselves to be ; because they abuse those Abilities which should have been applied another way , and might , had they been used aright , have been very serviceable to promote the Interest of Truth and Holiness . The most plausible Pretence they do produce for their prohibiting People the common use of the Scripture , is , That the ordinary sort of People would be very apt to abuse and wrest the Scriptures to their own Destruction , should they be permitted to have free recourse unto them . But allowing , that People may wrest the Scripture , and make some other use of it than they ought , this is not an Inconvenience which will make null , and discharge Men from God's Command of reading and searching the Scripture . You may , with as much reason , oblige Men to forbear the use of wholesome Food , Meat and Drink , and starve themselves to death , because some , by their Intemperance and Excess , do abuse wholesome Food , and make it an occasion of dangerous Distempers and Diseases , yea , and Death it self . You may as lawfully deprive People of their Corporal , as of their Spiritual Food . Besides , this very particular hath been foreseen , and taken notice of , by the Pen-men of the Holy Scripture , if we interpret 2 Pet. 3. 16. according to the usual acceptation of that place , by those who do alledge it for their purpose , as to this matter . And yet there is not one word there , to oblige People , on that account , to desist from the reading of the Scriptures . The People may , and ought to be warned to take heed how they read the Scriptures , and that they avoid Errours , and pervert not the Word of God. But the Scriptures are not therefore to be detained from them : God hath not thought fit to provide such a Remedy against peoples abusing his Word , as this is , of keeping it intirely from them . Yea , this very Apostle doth , as it were , in the next verses , perswade them to the due and right study , and improvement of the Scriptures , that they may avoid the Errours others do fall into , by abusing them , and may increase in the knowledge of Christ . It is undeniably evident , that this same Apostle doth , in this same Epistle , commend peoples reading of the Scriptures , and attending unto them . We have also a more sure Word of Prophecy , whereunto ye do well , that ye take heed , as unto a Light that shineth in a dark place , until the Day dawn , and the Day-Star arise in your Hearts . 2 Pet. 1. 19. And , however it is common , to attribute the Rise of Errours to the common sort of peoples having the free use of the Scriptures ; yet , upon due examination , it will be found , that the worst and most fatal Errous have sprung from , and been advanced by them , who pretending to more Knowledge and Learning , and Abilities than the rest of Mankind , have presumed to appropriate to themselves the intire Custody or Interpretation of the Scriptures . Nay , it is truly observed , by one who appears to have consulted Antiquity with much care and diligence , That The Laity so well understood their Faith , that many times , they , by their sagacity , discerned the sly Insinuations of Errour , in the Sermons of their Unsound and Heretical Bishops ; and so occasioned them to be condemned by Synodical Sentences : and through the radicated sense of Faith , would never be brought to any of the Alterations made by any corrupt Councils ; nor , would ever rest under their Prevarications , till the Primitive Faith recovered , and vacated all those Synodical Prevarications ; as may be seen in all the Arian History ; and particularly , the relation given , of the vulgar Sagacity and Zeal , to detect and repress that Heresy in St. Hierom against the Luciferians . If this Notion , of keeping the Scriptures from the people , or of obliging the People to understand the Scriptures no otherwise than those would interpret them , who were arrogant enough to claim , and assume to themselves this priviledge , had intirely prevail'd , when our Blessed Saviour was on Earth , God only knows , how much our Saviour's Reputation might have suffered , even in succeeding Generations . For , as these presumptuous Persons did pretend , that the Key of the Scripture did hang only at their Girdle , so they refused to acknowledge Christ was the Messiah , the Son of God , and they both accused him as an Impostor , a Deceiver , an Ill Man ; and charged and censured the People as ignorant Persons , who did not understand the Law , little better than Hereticks , a cursed Generation : and all this was , because they did listen unto Christ , follow Him , and Believe in Him ; that is , did undertake to judge of Matters by the Scripture ; and to determine this was the Saviour , the Messiah , &c. prophesied of , and promised in the Scriptures . The Chief Priests , the Scribes , the Pharisees , they were all against Christ , and would fain have perswaded the People to have taken their Interpretation of the Scriptures , and to have pinn'd their Faith on their Sleeves , and not undertake to judge for themselves in so high and mysterious a Point as this , concerning the Messiah , was . They would have perswaded them , that this Jesus was a very Cheat , and that all the things he did , which won their admiration , were wrought by the Intimacy he had with , and the Power he borrowed from the Prince of the Devils ; and that the Messiah must be quite of another Make from this same Jesus . Now , what work would have been in the World , if none must have read and understood the Scriptures in any other sense but what the Topping-Men , and Chief Leaders of the Jewish Church , had assigned ? What contempt do these Monopolizers of Knowledge express against the People , who would not submit to their Determinations ? How angry were they , when any dared to declare how they respected and admired Christ ? Then came the Officers to the Chief Priests and Pharisees , and they said unto them , Why have ye not brought him ? The Officers answered , never Man spake like this Man : Then answered them the Pharisees , Are ye also deceived ? Have any of the Rulers or Pharisees believed on him ? But this People who knoweth not the Law , are Cursed . John 7. 45. to the 50th . If People mean fairly and honestly , why do they desire to have Folks bred up in Ignorance ? Indeed , if the ordinary sort of People be well vers'd in the Holy Scriptures , it will not be easie to impose upon them . Why cannot Men , that would be Teachers now a days , be as open and plain as the Prophets , and as Christ , and as his Apostles were ? These came not to vent any counterfeit false Wares , and therefore they were wiling the People should examine and try what they taught them : They were for the People's reading and searching of the Scriptures , and judging of the Doctrines which were taught them by those Holy Scriptures , which had been delivered unto them . They came to deliver people out of Darkness , not to keep them in , or lead them unto Darkness . And those who are their true Successors and Followers , will do the like . If Men have no Notions to scatter about , and perswade People to swallow and submit to , but what are sound , and true , and good , and which are authorised by Jesus Christ , they will have no occasion to be ashamed or afraid , that People should examine them by the Scripture . None flee from the Light , but those whose Doctrines or Practices will not bear the Light. Christ's Doctrines did accord very well with those Divine Revelations those Jews had amongst them : But the Unscriptural Traditions they had got amongst them , and our Saviour's Doctrines , could not stand together . To the Law , and to the Testimony , if they speak not according to this Word , it is because there is no Light in them . Isaiah 8. 20. Secondly , Those who profess themselves Protestants , ought to take care , that they be well fixed and settled in the Protestant Religion . The Apostles often require their Followers and Disciples , and those they write unto , to Stand fast in the Faith : 1 Cor. 16. 13. And to Contend earnestly for the Faith once delivered to the Saints : Jude 3. And to Strive together for the Faith of the Gospel : Phil. 1. 27. Now , by these and the like Expressions , which you meet with in the Apostolick Writing , they plainly , first , warn them of the danger there is , of Peoples Apostarizing from the True Faith and Religion of Jesus Christ , after that they have made a Profession of the same . And secondly , excite and stir those up , who make a Profession of the True Faith , to take care that their Minds and Hearts may be throughly fixed and settled in the Faith , least they should yield and waver , and decline , when Storms and Tryals shall arise , and their constancy shall be assaulted . And , if there be but too much ground to fear , that many who make a Profession of the Truth , will Apostatize , and forsake it , when they shall be called to bear witness to it , in some Instances which are ungrateful to Flesh and Blood. It highly concerns all , who at present profess True Christianity , to look well to it , that they be so established and confirmed in what they profess , that if a day of Tryal should come , they may not loose their Crown , destroy their Souls , or betray the Truth . First , Those who do profess the True Religion , may afterwards Apostatize from , and relinquish it . And there is too great occasion to fear , that many , however forward they appear in Profession , will do so , should they be tryed in any difficult and beloved Instances : I do not mean , that People who have long habituated themselves to profess the Christian Religion , will easily be brought to an open and avowed renouncing of the Name of Christianity ; as though none could be justly charged with Apostacy from the Truth , but those who can vye with Julian for impudence , in contemning and trampling under foot the very Name and Profession of the Son of God. The estate of those who proceed so far , is beyond measure dreadful . Heb. 6. 4 , 5 , 6. But there are two things , which the Scriptures more especially insist on , as imported by People's Apostatizing from the True Faith , and which , People are generally too prone unto ; and both which are very displeasing unto , and greatly provoking of God. 1. Departing from the Purity and Simplicity of the Faith of the Gospel , espousing and imbracing , together with those Doctrines , and Practices which Christ hath authorized in his Holy Scriptures , other Opinions and Practices , which are destructive of the Truth and power of Religion . Christianity is as really impaired and injured by evil mixtures , as by open professed opposition . The Apostacy the Apostles spake of , which was to accompany , or rather , constitute that great Antichristian State , they foretel , would have such a vast , and large , and durable Empire in the Christian World , seems plainly to be of this kind . The great Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity should be retained in outward Profession , but yet other Doctrines should be introduced , and be so vehemently imposed , and insisted on , that thereby the main Essential of Religion should be slighted , oppressed , and become in a great measure useless . And way has been made for these Innovations , by first , forging some gross Impostures , and counterfeiting some strange things , to which they have given the Name of Miracles , and so unwary , ignorant People have been prevailed with to entertain no better than Diabolical Delusions as Divine Instructions and Commands : very agreeable to what the Apostle foretells of Antichrist's coming ; After the working of Sathan with all Power , and Signs , and lying Wonders : 2 Thes . 2. 9. 2. Altering the nature and use of many things which were Innovated , by the pious Antients , without any Divine Authority , and purely by the conduct of a warm Zeal , and a devout Intention . Had no further progress been made in those Instances , than those Antients made , little prejudice would thence have happened to Religion . But God is so jealous of his own Honour , that usually , when People manifest they have an Opinion that God hath not carefully enough provided for his own Cause , and therefore they will guard and sence , and provide more effectually for it ; He blasts all those Devices , and suffers such Humane Inventions to be occasions of more than ordinary trouble ; and sometimes , to be prosecuted so far , as to make a formal and mortal Opposition to the Vitals of Religion . 3. Depressing the Offices and Devotional Duties of Religion with unreasonable heaps of outward Formalities , and Ritual Observations ; that so the Senses might be superfluously carest ; and by accomodating the Matters of Religion too much to the Rules of Carnal Policy . By this means , inward Seriousness , and the Spirituality of Religion , have been dispenc't with ; and Peoples Minds have been rendred lax and vain , aiery and garish . And having been thus inured for some time to these meer Externals , which they have taken upon trust , they have at last been so easie , as to content themselves with an Implicite Faith , and have rather chose to swallow any thing that should be offered them , whole , than put themselves to the trouble to enquire into its Nature , Rise , and Grounds . 4. Finding out ways to reconcile what they stile Religion , to Men's Carnal Lusts , and Natural Tempers and Constitutions ; devising easier ways ( as they pretend ) to Heaven , than any of the Saints in former Ages , were acquainted with : devising new ways to satisfie for Sin , and undertaking to save Mens Souls after they are dead in Sins . Hence there is something Men call Religion , that must certainly please the Careless , and ( as some tell us ) as certainly Save them . If you are melancholly , and inclined to strictness and Corporal Mortifications , they will humour you in that ; they can provide you Pennances and Securities , which shall sufficiently vex and macerate your Flesh . If you are soft and tender if you would have a Jovial Religion , and would allow your selves in wantonness and excess , &c. and yet not miscarry at last , they can fit you with Indulgencies and Pardons , and will not question to send you safely to Heaven , by vertue of the Merits and Righteousness of some of their Antient Friends , who never had a Being in the World ; or , of others , who tho they might have a Being here on Earth , in all probability , never got to Heaven themselves : I am sure , they never had Righteousness enough of their own to carry them to Heaven , however it is grown so bulky since they left it behind them , and has crept into the Churche's Treasury . But the Apostle acquaints us , that Antichrist will come with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish : 2 Thes . 2. 10. S●condly , Declining from their Love to , and Zeal for the Faith , growing cold and indifferent concerning the Faith ; when People have not that affection and concern for the Faith , with which they seemed at first to entertain and welcome it . See Rev. 2. 4 , 5. People are too prone thus to Apostatize from the True Faith , after that they have made a Profession of it : and if Matters be well considered , there is not much ground to wonder it should be so : For , 1. People do too ordinarily make a Profession of the Faith , upon unsuitable Motives and Principles : not because they understand it , and have their Consciences convinced of its truth and excellency ; but meerly because it is the fashion and custome of the People where they live , to make such a Profession ; or , it is a Profession that has got into repute ; or , upon some other such mean and fickle Account . Men that have no sound Principles , will ever be for that Profession which is uppermost , and is attended with most Pomp and Pleasure , &c. Christ had Followers in abundance , whil'st he fed them with Loaves , but how did they fall off , and slink away , when they failed of their Expectations . Joh. 6. 26. 2. Multitudes content themselves with a meer notional knowledge in Religion , and take no due care to digest Truths , and turn the Principles of Religion into solid Nourishment : Now the Doctrines of Religion , if they do not sink down into our Hearts , if they have not a powerful efficacy on our Affections , if they do not put us invincibly upon such a Course of Life , as bears some proportion with their nature and tendency , they have no fast hold on us , they will soon evaporate , we shall easily part with them . Luke 6. 49. Let the Food we eat , be never so good and wholesome for the kind , if we do not digest it , if our Stomacks do not turn it into good Chyle and Nutriment , it will soon become nauseous , and the least provocation will make us vomit it up again . 3. God doth often , in just Judgment , leave those to be hurried away by an evil Spirit of Delusion and Impiety , who having long injoyed the means for their instruction and settlement in the True Faith , have made no careful improvement of the same , for those ends . God ordinarily suffers such to be led away by Sathan and his lying Emissaries , into Opinions drametrically opposite to the plainest Truths , as well as to those vile affections which prompt to all uncleanness , and practices which are inconvenient , even according to the dictates of natural Light. Such are a ready and self-prepared prey to him , whose coming is after the workings of Sathan , &c. 2 Thes . 2. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. 4. Over-loading Ecclesiastical Offices with Worldly Revenues , Temporal Power and Dignities , hath contributed very much to the prejudice of Christianity : Too true did that voice prove , This day is poison poured into the Church . These things are powerful baits , and strong temptations to ambitious , covetuous , domineering Persons . Those who have such Offices so drest up and beautined , to confer and bestow , need not doubt , but they shall find Advocates enough , for their own particular Opinions and Ways , though never so Erroneous . And when Errours and Superstitions are back't with Power , Greatness , Wealth , &c. Oh , what multitudes will they draw after them ! Besides , when those who have not a mighty concern for the Interests of real Religion , are too much advanc't in Ecclesiastical Affairs , and rais'd above themselves , it too usually falls out , that an arbitrary Imperiousness starts up , and prevails , and then things of no great moment , and for which Christ and his Apostles thought not fit to ingage their Authority , or lay any stress of Religion on , get into their heads , and must needs be made terms of Christian Communion , that they may be sure their Authority is acknowledged . What Contests and Divisions have been raised and created by this means ? What Heats and Animosities have been this way occasioned ? Hereby Differences have been carried to such heights , that at last Religion it self is even lost in the Quarrels commenc't about its Vestments and Trappings . How have People's zeal or fury about things , called Indifferent , extirpated or quenched all serious and due concernment for the true Interests of Religion ! 'T is to be feared , that hence there is occasioned an indifferency in the minds of multitudes , touching the great Substantials of Religion , which doth surpass the Indifferency of the things themselves , for which we have so desperately contended . The love of Worldly Grandure carried Demas away from the Faith , 2 Tim. 4. 10. And over much concernedness for little Extra-Religious Matters , gave the Apostle ground to suspect , that those who were so affected , would not be so honest , firm , and faithful to the Faith of the Gospel , as good Christians ought to be : Observe how he expostulates with them , and lays down the grounds of his fears touching them . Gal. 4. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. 5. God permits Afflictions , Persecutions , and Sufferings to be brought on them who profess his Truth , not only to try the Graces of the Faithful , and to make their Graces appear more illustrious by their eminent exercise ; but that Hypocrites and meer Formalists , who have no real love for his Truths , nor give any hearty assent unto them , may be discovered , and have their disguises taken away . In times of peace and quiet , and whil'st the true Religion is on the thriving hand in the World , many pretend to it , who too much resemble Erasmus's Good Christian , who appeared a very zealous Professor , he would always have a New Testament hanging at his Girdle , on one side ; but then he must have a Bottle of good Sack hanging on the other side . As long as the True Faith hath outward Honours , Preferment , Carnal Pleasures , and Ease accompanying it , it will not want Followers and Attendants : but when Storms and Persecutions do arise , and it is separated from these external Allurements , they will soon shake hands with Religion , and court whatsoever shall be drest up in its former Robes . Such as espouse the True Religion , not for its native Excellency , but for its gorgeous Attire , and great Dowry in this World , will in all probability , when Persecutions arise , part with their Faith rather than their Pleasures , Wealth , and Ease ; they will sooner throw away their Bibles rather than their Bottles . 1 Joh. 2. 19. Mat. 13. 20 , 21. Now , if there be such danger of people's Apostatizing from the True Faith , after they have made a profession of it , it must certainly very importantly concern all who profess the Protestant Religion , that is , True Christianity , as taught and delivered in the Holy Scriptures , and as purged and reformed by the guidance and direction of this Divine Rule , from all those Errours and Corruptions which have , either through people's heedlessness , crept into the profession of Christianity , or , through design , have been slily ushered into it , or , by imperiousness , have been forc't upon it : I say , it very highly concerns them to take care , that their Minds and Hearts be so fixed and settled in the Faith of the Gospel , that they may never be removed from their Constancy , that they may not be as Children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , by the slight of Men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lye in wait to deceive . Eph. 4. 14. It should therefore be our care to get our Minds furnished with clear distinct Notions of those Truths in which the Scriptures do instruct people : It is not enough , that we can talk over , in a general way , the Doctrines of Religion ; we ought to labour for an explicite knowledge of Divine Revelations ; so that we may be able to prove and confirm every part of our Profession by express and clear Scriptures ; 1 Pet. 3. 15. The Ignorant Man will be always wavering . Yea , we should strive to get the Truths we profese and understand , very strongly indeared unto our Hearts , so as to prefer them above all Worldly and Carnal Interests ; and to have our Affections , yea , our whole Souls brought under their Power and Influence , their Government and Soveraignty : our Souls should so cleave unto them , they should be so precious and dear unto us , that neither Frowns nor Smiles , Promises nor Threats , may make any unhappy impression on us ; but the more blustering any Storms may be , which can arise , the deeper root we may take , and grow the more firm and stable . Phil. 1. 27 , 28. For , 1. We must expect to meet with Tryals and Sufferings for the Faith of the Gospel , which will overwhelm and ruine us , if we be not well provided against them . Our Passage to Glory , is through many Tribulations . We have many and various Enemies , who will mischief us , and obstruct us all they can , who will do their utmost to prevail with us , both by fair and foul means , to make shipwrack both of Faith and a good Conscience : We are not only exposed to the malice , rage , and spite of absurd and unreasonable Men , but to the craft and fury too of those infernal Fiends , who prompt and excite their carnal and earthly Tools and Instruments , to vent and vomit forth their rancour and spleen against the True Faith and its Professors . See Eph. 6. 12 , 13. 1 Pet. 5. 8 , 9. Rev. 2. 10. If you be not well fixed in the Truth , how can you expect to hold out , when temptations and sufferings shall come ? When you shall be in danger of loosing Estate , Liberty , all that is dear to you in the World , yea , Life it self , for your Religion ? Did not the House built upon the Sand fall , when the Rain descended , and the Winds blew , and beat upon it ? Mat. 7. 26 , 27. 2. Apostacy from the True Faith is a very hainous provoking sin : is not this to offer God the utmost affront we can , and in effect , to say all manner of evil of him ? Do we not hereby charge him with being the greatest Impostor that ever was ? Is not this to throw the foulest dirt that is possible upon Religion ; yea , openly to avow , that Sathan and his drudgery are much better , more ligible than Christ and his most Holy Faith ? That God is not to be trusted , and that his Religion is not what he represents it ? O what abominable , what innumerable , what monstrous wickednesses are bred in the womb of Apostacy ! And what direful consequences and fruits may those expect , who thus affront , and incense the Almighty God against themselves ! He will not have a gracious regard for such : He will cast off , and punish severely , all those that cast him off , and deal treacherously with Him. The Just shall live by Faith , but if any Man draw back , my Soul shall have no pleasure in him . Heb. 10. 38. The Lord Jesus Christ will reject them , and be ashamed of them , when he shall appear in all his Glory . Whosoever shall be ashamed of me , and of my words , in this adulterous and sinful Generation of him also shall the Son of Man be ashamed , when he cometh in the Glory of his Father , with the Holy Angels . Mark 8. 38. Though you set no value on Christ's Love at present ; and care for no more , but that you may have the Countenance of great Persons , and injoy the Pleasures and Wealth of the World ; yet remember , that it will not be long , before ye shall have other apprehensions of things than now you have : It will not be long , before you shall perceive all these things you prefer before the Faith of the Gospel , to be very empty , and void of all satisfaction , and full of torment and horrour : when Christ shall appear in Glory , with his Holy Angels , all these things will fail you : and how you will howl and roar , and complain then ? What tears will you then shed ? How will you curse your Apostacy , and all that helpt it forward ? And now , when your Case is thus helpless , thus dreadful , and all your Comforters are gone , the Lord Jesus and his Mercy will fail you too ; he will send you to them , whose favour you prefer'd before his , who will tremble and quake as much as you ; and to your Wealth , which will then disappear ; and to your beloved Pleasures , which will then be bitterer than Gall and Wormwood : you must only expect to behold his frowns , and to feel the terrible discoveries of his insupportable displeasure : you can expect no favour at his Hands . See Prov. 1. 24. to the end . 2 Thes . 1. 7 , 8 , 9. Nay , you have no good ground to hope you shall prosper in any of those designs you intend to drive forward by , or under your Apostacy . God doth very often notably blast such projects ; He causeth some remarkable and very fatal Curse to accompany those who relinquish his Cause and Truth . What was Judas the better for his thirty pieces of Silver ? What a sorry Plaister was this for a wounded Conscience ? What a poor comfort to a justly despairing Soul ? What a fearful end have they ordinarily come to , who have forsaken Christ and the Gospel for Preferment , Wealth , or any Carnal Interests ? 3. The more we are confirmed in the Faith , the greater measure of inward Comsort we may confidently look for , if we should be called to suffer for the Truth . God will not leave such comfortless , they shall have experience of his gracious , refreshing Presence and Supports . The Disciples , when publickly disgraced and whipt , they went away rejoycing , that they were counted worthy to suffer for the Name of Christ . See Acts 5. 41. 2 Cor. 1. 3 , 4 , 5. 4. You will hereby be in a capacity of doing others eminent service , by your Instruction , and Counsel , and Example . It is a great mercy not to cumber the World , not to live uselessly and unprofitably , to do real good Services to people in our Generation : nay , more , you will hereby be in a capacity of doing much to retrieve the Credit and Honour of Religion ; which has indeed been horridly betraid , and prostituted by Hypocrites , and wicked pretenders to it . 5. The Promise of God is only to those who stand fast , who do persevere and overcome . A Profession , be it never so good and Orthodox for the matter of it , will turn to no good and comfortable account to particular Persons , unless they faithfully adhere to , and persist therein . To them who by patient continuance in well doing , seek for Glory , Honour , Immortality , and Eternal Life . Rom. 2. 7. To him than overcometh , will I give to eat of the Tree of Life , which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. Rev. 2. 7. Rev. 2. 5. He that overcometh shall inherit all things , and I will be his God , and he shall be my Son. Rev. 21. 7. These , and considerations of the like nature , which will easily occur unto you , should make some impression on you . Have you had your Bibles so long , and means of Instruction , so much above all others , who are of the contrary Perswasion ; and what , will you now throw away your Bibles , as being imperfect ? Will you hood-wink your selves , or be content to be led blindfold , by Guides that either cannot , or will not see ? Are you weary of the glorious Light of the Gospel ? What sort of people are they in St. Paul's Judgment , who dislike the glorious Light of the Gospel ? 2 Cor. 4. 3 , 4. Can you now at last be contented with the poor Glow-worm light of simple Tradition ; or , an uncertain wavering of Ignis fatuus , which certainly leads all who foolishly resign up themselves to its conduct , out of the true way into very hazardous Inconveniences ? Quit you like Men , yea , quit you like Christians ; labour and strive to get your Minds and Hearts justly fixed in the Religion you profess . Be not so soft and easie , be not so foolish and inconsiderable , be not so unreasonable , so distracted , so irreligious , as to suffer your selves to be so frighted out of your Religion , or slattered and collogued , cheated , and childishly allured out of it ; nor yet to be so jeared and laught , and lampooned out of it ; and then you 'l be pritty safe : for their Arguments and Reasonings ( if you are wise ) will never do you hurt . The Religion you profess , contains all in it that is necessary , yea , that can be really useful to any Man , in order unto his having a safe and sure conduct to Heaven ; and , why should any Man desire to go further ? None of the Apostles , none of the antient Martyrs , dared either to die for , or teach any other Doctrines than what your Religion doth comprize . And what ! will it not content you to keep pace with them ? Must you needs exceed and outstrip them ? Take need , the more ambitious , proud , and presumptuous you are , the less safe you are . Lucifer and his Comrades had the most dreadful and unhappiest fall that ever Creatures had ; and it may be , to be wise above , or ( if you like the Phrase better ) to be Religious beyond the Scripture , may in the end , prove to have a great Affinity with that they were guilty of . And if so , the punishment of that fault , must bear some proportion with the other . I would cherish as much charity , with reference to those who manifest any pious Sentiments , in the Perswasion contrary to ours , as is possible . But yet I must needs say , that no solid proof hath ever yet been produced , that any Persons ever yet suffered death comfortably for any of their peculiar and proper Doctrines taken abstractedly from those which we justly profess , and was accepted with God for so doing . But we have Instances enough , of those who have joyfully laid down their Lives for the Doctrines we profess , abstractedly from all those wherein they differ from us ; that is , those which they have added to the Scriptures , and the suffering , and bearing witness to the Truths we own and profess , have been of great account with God. Should the worst you can imagine follow on your firm adhering to the Faith you profess , viz. That you shall be persecuted and suffer for it ; yet this should not startle nor discompose you . That is but a sorry Religion , that is not worth suffering for . There has been more Blood cheerfully parted with , more Tortures joyfully endured for the Religion you profess , than for any , it may be , for all other Causes in the World. If you are called to suffer on this Account , your Cause is so good , you need not be afraid of any Enemies terrours , you have no occasion to be troubled . 1 Pet. 3. 14. The Comfort is unexpressible , which you may warrantably expect . The Holy Spirit is promised to be a Comforter , more especially , to those who are persecuted , and who suffer for this Religion . Joh. 16. 7. What glorious Rewards are there for you in Heaven ? The more like you are to Christ in his Sufferings , the more you shall resemble him in Glory . Rom. 8. 17. Mat. 5. 11 , 12. Alas ! consider matters well , though the worst should come to the worst . Shall you loose your Estates , your Wealth , your Houses , your Friends , your Relations , yea , your Lives ? And what then ! What are these to your Souls ! What are these to Eternal Glory ! These are poor , mean , uncertain , perishing things at best these may be taken away from you on other Accounts ; you may have all these , and yet no Comfort . But you may be exercised , ( will you say ) with cruel Usages , with Tortures impossible , according to Humane Judgment , to be born with any patience . Be it so , make the worst you can of it , they cannot be answerable , for vehemence and horrour , to the Torments in Hell ; they cannot lie in the Ballance with the Glory and Joy of Heaven . Rom. 8. 18. Be they never so great , one smile from Christ will render you insensible of the pian . How many , upon the Racks , and in Flames , for this Religion , have publickly declared and manifested they felt no pain ? And have you such numerous examples and presidents , take heart then , and go on as they did , joyfully in the strengrh of you God. How many have ventured all , and sustained all , both in former Ages , and in this present Age , in a neighbouring Countrey , with astonishing Joy , for this self same Religion ? But Oh! what will you loose , and what must you suffer , if you wickedly depart from your God , and renounce his Truth ? Would you be in Judas his despair , or sustain the horrour Spira was filled with , for Worldly Favour and Preferment ? Would you be willing , for ease and pleasure here , to be the object of God's heaviest displeasure for ever ? To be shut out of Heaven , to be continually followed with God's Curse ? To be a perpetual Companion of Devils , and the worst Sinners ? To lie roaring and howling , to all Eternity , in unquenable flames ? In a word , consider how the Faith you profess , is the Faith which God Almighty hath taught and appointed , which the Lord Jesus hath born witness unto , and sealed with his Blood , which the Apostles preached to the World , and suffered for ; the Faith which has been justified and confirmed by multitudes of most real and undeniable Miracles ; a Faith that is pure and peaceable , and tends most intirely to propagate and increase all that is truely excellent and praise-worthy amongst Men ; a Faith which God hath taken care of in all Ages of the Christian World , and which assures its sincere Professors of things incomprehensibly great and glorious hereafter , and fills them with unspeakable peace and comfort at present , amidst all the Suffering they can be exposed to , on its account : a Faith God hath wonderfully freed from the Corruptions which were formerly mixed with it , in these Nations ; and for which , He hath often and even miraculously appeared , in discovering and blasting the projects , the designs , and the attempts of its most subtle and unreconcileable Enemies : a Faith your Ancestors , after mature consideration , priz'd above all their worldly Interests , and Lives : a Faith , they took a great deal of care and pains to have transmitted to you pure and undefiled : a Faith , which brought with it multitudes of outward Blessings ; and which occasioned these Nations to be eas'd of a Yoke , which all the Inhabitants , who had ingenious sense , complained often of , and groaned under : a Faith you cannot part with , but in all probability , you will again involve your selves in Calamities and Miseries , like to those out of which your Predecessors strove with all their might to extricate themselves . Have you an ambition now , to expose your selves and your Posterity to all the mischief and evil , which people of the adverse perswasion , have been known industrious and unwearied to bring upon those they look upon as Hereticks ? Are you resolved to pull down with your own hands , upon your selves , all the sad and direful Plagues which are reserved to be inflicted , in the next World , on them who perfidiously betray the Faith of the Gospel , and wickedly Apostatize from the True Religion ? If not , then take care , and look well to your selves , and see that you be fixed and confirmed in the Protestant Religion . And therefore , 1. Be sure you be built upon the true Foundation . Take heed you profess not the True Faith , meerly because it is owned by any Society of some particular extrinsical denomination : any particular Church may fall . There is a Body of Men now in the World , who assume to themselves a very glorious Title ; and yet , when a just enquiry is made , and the largest allowances Charity can prompt to , are yielded them , that Society can only pass for a very corrupt part of the Christian Church : and yet the antient Inhabitants of that place where the Head of this Society hath fixed his See , were a people , in St. Paul's time , so hearty in , and true to the Doctrines of Christ , their Faith was spoken of throughout all the World. Rom. 1. 8. Where are any tracts and footsteps now , of those Churches you read of in the Revelations ? And yet God never forsaketh any , till they first forsake him . There has been , I fear there is still , altogether a fault amongst us , that we are immoderately concerned for the credit and outward grandure of particular Parties ; and Christians are respected , not for their being Christians , but for their espousing some distinguishing Notions and Characters of Man's devising . I am perswaded , God will utterly overthrow , at least , mightily abase Men's affections to , and zeal for all Party-making Notions amongst Christians , before he will raise his Church to that prosperous , flourishing State prophesied of , and promised in the Scriptures . There must be more Love , and Charity , and Unanimity amongst Christians . Christianity will endure to the End of the World : but as for all the Modes and Fashions of Man's devising , wherewith any do dress up the Profession of Christianity , these may all fall to the Earth , as the Inventers of them have fall'n , or will fall . Mat. 16. 18. Gal. 6. 15. The True Foundation you should be built upon , is that of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner-Stone . Eph. 2. 20. Therefore , 2. Embrace nothing as an Article of Faith , or part of Religion , but what the Holy Scriptures are express , or very clear concerning . You have in these Scriptures all that is necessary to any Man's Salvation . 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. Joh. 20. 13. Believe no Man , nor no Society of Men in these Cases , further than the Scriptures do warrant what they teach . Act. 17. 11. Isai . 8. 20. 3. Be not extreamly hot and zealous about any thing , but what the purity of Faith , and power of Godliness are really concerned in . Good Men and Orthodox Christians may have different apprehensions about Matters of small moment , without much prejudice to their own Souls , or the common Faith , provided these Differences be managed without uncharitableness and unchristian violence : But too much heat and violence about things , diverts from the weighty matters of God's Laws , and Religion soon sensibly decays . Phil. 3. 16. Gal. 6. 16. Tit. 3. 9. 4. Expect and prepare for Tryals . Christ hath dealt plainly and openly with us : In the World ye shall have Troubles . See Mat. 16. 24. Learn to resign up your selves , and live in expectation of Sufferings . Read 1 Pet. 4. 12 , 13. 5. Be earnest in Prayer , that your Hearts and Souls may have an inward , real , spiritual , affectionate sense of the Truth and Importance of the Doctrines of Christianity . 1 Cor. 2. 12 , 13 , 14. 6. Study the Holy Scriptures diligently , and make them your dayly delight . Psal . 1. 2. Psal . 119. 97 , 98. 7. Make a good Improvement of the plain , faithful Ministry of the Word , whil'st you can injoy it : you know not what Times may come . 2 Tim. 4. 3 , 4. 8. Take heed of Self-confidence , and depend wholly on thy Saviour . 9. Learn to be expert in using every part of the Christian Armour . Eph. 6. 13. &c. 10. Watch your selves carefully , and your Enemies too . 2 Pet. 3. 17. 11. Take a due care that your Faith may effectually influence you to all Holiness of Life and Conversation . That Man is in a great preparation to renounce his Faith , that hath prostituted his Conscience , and is regardless how he lives . 1 Tim. 1. 19. Read , consider , and improve what is offered unto you , and the God of all Grace , who hath called us to his Eternal Glory , by Christ Jesus , after that we have suffered a while , make you Perfect , &c. 1 Pet. 5. 10. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A28581-e630 Per lustra & popinas quotidie sine pudore in aleae lusum , ususque turplssuhos potestatem extratendi animas functo●um ex igne expiatorio profundebant . In Aug. Thuam . Hist . l. p. 13. vide Mezenrah ; Ann. 1517. Sleid. Com. lib. 1. An. 15. Qnicunque non innititur doctrinae Romanae Ecclesie , ac Romani Pontificis tam quam regulae fidei infallibili , aqua etiam sacra Scriptura ●obur trabit & authoritatem , est Haeriticus . Mouns . Clauddef of the Reformation , part 3d. M. Clauddes . of the Reform . part 3d. pag , 51. &c. Vnde Protestantium nomen quod ad omnes postea , qui eorum quae perperum in religionem invecta sunt , emendationem amplecti se professi sunt , obitque ab Ecclesia Romana defecere , dimanavit . Thuan . Hist . lib. 1. p. 26. Nomen per contemptum ab adversariis ob protestationem Spirae impositum . D. Prideaux Lect. 9. de visibil . Eccles . Chilling worth 's Safe way to Salvation . pag. 375. Catholick Ballance . pag. 19. 
A37055	----	A briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiastical peace amongst Protestants published by Samuel Hartlib. Hartlib, Samuel, d. 1662. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A37055 of text R209846 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing D2835). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 56 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 19 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A37055 Wing D2835 ESTC R209846 08696173 ocm 08696173 41561 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A37055) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 41561) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1257:12) A briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiastical peace amongst Protestants published by Samuel Hartlib. Hartlib, Samuel, d. 1662. Dury, John, 1596-1680. [1], 35 p. Printed by I.R. for Andrew Crooke, London : 1641. An account of John Dury's mission to various countries to promote unity of Protestant churches. Sometimes attributed to John Dury. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. eng Dury, John, 1596-1680. Protestantism -- History. A37055 R209846 (Wing D2835). civilwar no A briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiasticall peace amongst Protestants. Published by Samuel Hartlib Dury, John 1641 9406 4 0 0 0 0 0 4 B The rate of 4 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-10 Taryn Hakala Sampled and proofread 2006-10 Taryn Hakala Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Briefe RELATION OF That which hath been lately attempted to procure Ecclesiasticall PEACE amongst PROTESTANTS . Published , by Samuel Hartlib . printer's or publisher's device LONDON , Printed by I. R. for Andrew Crooke , and are to be sold at his shop in Pauls Church-yard , at the signe of the Green Dragon . 1641. Sir Edwin Sands in his Book called Europae Speculum , or a view of the State of Religion in the Western parts of the World , Pag. 183. THe end ( of these unhappy differences in Religion , between the Reformed , and Lutheran Protestants ) will be that their enemies shall laugh , when themselves shall have cause to weep , unlesse the graciousnesse of God , stirre up some worthy Princes of renowne , and reputation with both the sides , to enterpose their wisedome , industry and authority , for the uniting these factions , or at least wise for reconciling , and composing those differences in some tollerable sort : a work of immortall fame , and desert , and worthy of none other , but of them of whom this wicked base World is not worthy . A Brief RELATION OF THAT WHICH HATH BEEN LATELY ATTEMPTED TO PROCURE Ecclesiasticall PEACE amongst PROTESTANTS . THE purpose of soliciting a Roncilement amongst Protestants in matters of Religion was first undertaken , and afterward prosecuted after this manner . When in the yeer 1628 ▪ Iohn Dury was in Prussia Minister to the English Company of Marchants residing at Elbing , he was sent unto , dealt withall , and moved by Dr. Godeman a wise , godly , and learned man , one of the King of Swedens Privy Councellors , and Judge of his high Court in those parts , to second him in a businesse of Ecclesiasticall Unitie amongst Protestants , which he said , his King and Master would be glad to advance . So good a motion being readily entertained , it came to passe afterward , when Sir Thomas Roe was sent Ambassador Extraordinary by his Majesty of great Britain , to agree the Sweds and Polonians ( which also he did successefully perform ) that both Doctor Godeman , and Master Dury did make him throughly acquainted with all the passages of their negotiation . Whereupon he according to that generous disposition , which doth lead him to favour all good indeavours of a publike nature , did very willingly assist them with Counsell , and at Master Duryes intreaty , conferred with the Lord Chancellor Oxonstiern , to see how farre he would shew himself in the businesse , and what course might be resolved upon to proceed joyntly to the effect thereof . The Lord Chancellor manifested a good liking to the work , and promised to my Lord Ambassador to joyn effectually therein towards his King , and the Lutheran Clergy of his best acquaintance . Upon this ground , my Lord Ambassador encouraged Mr Dury to proceed , and when his Lordship was gone into England , the Lord Chancellor sent for him , heard his particular proposalls , conferred with him about the same , testified his willingnesse to give assistance thereunto , and desired Mr Dury to give him information of the passages of the work in time to come , so he went from Elbing into Engl. in the yeer 1630. Chiefly , because his Congregagation at Elbing was dissolved by reason of the inconveniences which warre had brought upon the Trade in that place ; and because Sr Thomas Roe had promised to move the chief Prelates in England to assist him in the work of pacification . Being then arrived there , he first acquainted his most familiar friends of the Clergy with his purpose , and shewed them some declarations written by the chief Preachers of Dantzigh to make it appear , that they were not only ready to joyn in such a negotiation , but also desirous and in hope that the Divines in England would in like manner concur ; which being done , he came to Sr Thomas Roe , who was mindefull of his promise , and became every way as good as his word towards him . For he recommended the businesse towards the Kings most Excellent Majestie ; who was pleased to refer the consideration of this matter to my Lords Grace of Canterbury , and to the Bishop of London , that they should hear Mr Dury , and declare their resolutions to his proposalls . This was done accordingly . And he was commanded to write unto the Divines of his acquaintance in Prussia , and to the Lord Chancellor Oxonstiern , to testifie first the good inclination , and resolution which the Clergy of England had , to cooperate in due time towards so good a work . Secondly , that their Councell for the present was only this , that to prepare a way for future treaties , the Magistrates of both sides should inhibite railing disputes in the Pulpit , and put down the names of partiality , so farre as could be done , and not suffer any debatements to be taken up or fomented about matters of Ceremony in the form of publike worship . This he did , and after a good space , when news came , that the Protestant Princes in Germany had leagued themselves together for their mutuall defence , and that an amiable conference of their Divines had been holden with good successe at Eeipzigh to compose the differences in Religion , Master Dury was permitted to go into Germany , that he might see how the Divines of all sides might be disposed towards a Conjunction of Councells , and endeavours in the work . To make away for this purpose , he had before hand through , Sir Iames Spense Lord of Oreholm , and Generall to the Scottish Nation , in the Swedish Army , given notice to his Majesty of Sweden , what his aime was in the businesse of Reconcilement , and how it might be effected : Therefore when he came in the yeer 1631. into Germany , he found the King somewhat prepared , whom soon after the Battle fought at Leipzigh , he spoke withall at Wirtsburg . His Majestie was pleased to give him large audience , and by conference received full information of all those deliberations , and particular wayes , whereby the work could be prosecuted , of which , the Sammlary resolution whereunto his Majesty gave assent , was this . That the Councell given by the Reverend Prelates of England was to be followed , for the inhibition of disputes , and partiall names : and that as Master Dury did intend to labour with the Divines of the Reformed side to dispose them , to joyn unanimously in the means , and wayes of amitie , so his Majesty would recommend the same endeavours to be undertaken , by some Divine of the Lutheran fide , who should in like manner work upon the rest of their own party , and afterward when a fit preparation should be found on both sides , then His Majesty did offer to give unto Master Dury his Letters of Publike Recommendation towards the Princes of Germany , and chiefly towards the Elector of Brandenburg , and Landgrave of Hessen , that with his and their concurrence , and the Help of forraine Divines , the businesse might be brought to a solemn conclusion . This favourable resolution being taken , Mr Dury dealt first with the Divines of Hessen , then with those of Hanaw , and of the Palatinate , and of Deuxpont , and of the Wetteraw , till he heard the King of Sweden was dead , which evill news , although they made a stop in some part of his resolutions , yet they made him not leave the same , but altering a little his course , he procured from all the foresaid Divines certain Letters and Declarations , whereof some were inscribed to my Lords Grace of Canterbury , some joyntly to him and to the Lord Bishop of London , whereby they shewed their serious intention to labour for unity , with a desire to be assisted by the Church of England . Whiles this was a doing Sir Robert Amstruther arrived as Extraordinary Ambassador from his Majesty to the Princes of Germany . With him Master Dury ( having now gained the consent of the Reformed party , and thinking it fit to deal with the Lutheran side also ) went to the meeting of the Protestant States , which was appointed at Heilebron to frame an Evangelicall League . There he made use of some Lutheran Statesmen to insinuate to the Divines of that side certain propositions , which made known unto them his purpose . This first motion was not without effect towards many and chiefly towards those of Strasburg , and Norimberg , and some in the land of Wurtenburg . The meeting being ended , and the League framed at Heilebrone , he returned from thence towards the quarters of Franckfort , and dealt with two superintendents Doctor Dunner who was set over Mentz , by the Lord Chancellor of Sweden , and Doctor Leisering who had the inspection of Darmstat , and with the Senior Pastor of the City of Franckfort , Doctor Tettelbach . All these were brought to recommend the work unto their Brethren , and in the mean time the Churches at Paris , Geneva , Metts , and the Vniversity of Sedan sent their answers ( for Letters formerly had been written to them ) wherein they assisted Master Dury with Councell ; Some also of the Lutheran side declared in like manner a forward zeal and inclination to the work , by certain Writes imparted to that effect unto him . Therefore when a larger opportunity to work more effectually upon all , was offered by another meeting of the Protestant States , which was appointed at Franckfort , he thought good to make his intention known unto the convocated Ambassadors , and desired their assistance to further the same , whereupon a resolution was taken to this effect ; `` Whereas Master Dury having desired of Confederate Evangelicall States , permission to treat with the Divines and Pastors of their Churches concerning the meanes of Peace Ecclesiasticall ; Although the Ambassadors then present had not gotten any particular instructions concerning this matter from their Principalls , yet neverthelesse their opinion was , that if the Lord Chancellor Oxonstiern would by his authority advance this matter , that their Masters who wish from their hearts for this Unitie , will be so much the more ready with all their endevours to give assistance thereunto , according to the beginning made at the Conference held at Leipzigh , whereunto the Lords States , who are now present , in like manner unaminously do compromitte . Having gotten this approbation of the Work , and recommendation thereof by the States unto the Lord Chancellor ; and being much encouraged by the private promisses of assistance , which the severall Ambassadors from all parts made unto him , he thought fit to write Letters to all the Lutheran Vniversities , and to those of the Low-Countries to acquaint them with his purpose of seeking Unity in matters of Religion . Which being done when afterward another meeting was in agitation to be held at Erfurt in the Spring , he thought it fit ( because he was minded to return in the mean time for England ) to move the Ambassadors of the Palatinate , of Brandenburg , of Deuxpont , and of Hessen ; in case that any meeting should be held before he could come back again , that they would be pleased to set amongst themselves some course , how this matter might be prosecuted thereat , lest so good beginnings might be without effect . They consented to this motion , and met to consult about the matter . The effect of their resolution was this , That they would labour , in case a meeting should be called , to cause insert in the Letters Invitatory this clause , `` That every one of the Princes would be pleased to bring along with him a Divine or two , instructed and authorized by his Churches , to give advice about the means of procuring unitie , and composing differences in Religion ; and if the States should not meet there , that neverthelesse in time , and place convenient , some particular convocation of their own Divines should be brought to passe , wherein these two points should be put to deliberation . First , Whether , yea , or no , the Acts of the last Conference held at Leipzigh , should not be received by all the Churches , so farre as they contain an agreement of the Articles of the Confession of Ausburg ? Secondly , Whether , yea , or no , the heads wherein a disagreement may be yet remaining in that Conference , cannot admit of a Reconciliation ; if yea , what that Reconciliation may be ; if no , then it is to be inquired , whether or no , those remaining differences of opinion be of such importance , that by reason of the same , a Schisme should be upheld betwixt the Churches . These things the Ambassador , and Chancellor of the Elector of Brandinburg did take upon him to set forward by the means of his Prince . So then Mr. Dury went through Holland ( where he saluted the chief Divines to whom he had written out of Franckfort , and some others of his acquaintance ) and arrived at London about the end of the yeer , 1633. There he found D Laud , Lord Archbishop of Canterbury in his Predecessors place . Therefore the Letters and Declarations of forraign Churches and Divines were presented to him , with a brief Narration of more particular proceeding . All was well liked , and resolution agreed upon , that Mr. Dury should proceed , and return again into Germany , which that he might do with greater advantage to the work , he dealt before his departure with the Reverend Fathers in God , Doctor Morton , Lord Bishop of Durham , Doctor Hall , Lord Bishop of Excester , and Doctor Davenant , Lord Bishop of Salisbury , who gave him certain Theologicall declarations for the advancement of his purpose . To which effect , he also wrote into Ireland , to the Most Reverend Father in God , Doctor Vsher , Lord Archbishop of Armagh , and Primate of Ireland , and to the two Lord Bishops of Kilmore and Ardach , who in like manner did afterward joyntly assist him with their advices to the same end . In the mean time letters were sent also from Helvetia , and from Norimberg , giving such testimony of concurrence , as were fit to encourage him to proceed . For which cause also when he was ready to go back again into Germany , my Lords Grace of Canterbury gave him in answer to the Letters which he had brought from the German Protestants of both sides to him , two letters , the one to be communicated unto the Reformed , the other unto the Lutheran party , wherein he did acknowledge the receit of their Letters , and moving them to proceed in the good purpose which they had undertaken , he promised in due time his further cooperation therein . With these Declarations , together with a Recommendatory letter unto Sir Rob. Amstruther , who was then Ambassador for his Majesty in Germany ; Mr. Dury went from London to Hamburgh , where he found Sir Robert waiting for a new Commission to go for Franckfort ; And whilst his Lordship stayed , he took occasion to acquaint the chief Divines of that City in their Consistoriall meeting , with his negotiation , who having promised to joyn endeavours , he went from thence towards Franckfort , to a great and solemn meeting of the Protestant States , where he arrived in my Lord Ambassadors company in Iune 1634. There he dealt in particular , first with his best acquaintance , and then made a proposition in generall to the assembly ; thereupon the States were moved to depute out of every Colledge , some to take his businesse into consideration . These came together , gave Mr Dury audience , received informations of the Circumstances of this work , and perused severall declaratory writings , which divers Universities and Divines of both sides in Germany , as also out of Germany in forraine Churches , as England , France , Helvetia , and Transilvania had given to him , which moved them to take the matter into serious consideration , and make a decree whereof the heads are these . First , `` That Master Dury having been heard by a solemn Committee , and the Writs which he produced , taken into consideration by the rest of the States , all of them with unanimous consent , did judge his Work most laudable , most acceptable to God , and most necessary , and usefull to his Church , yet seeing it was of great and weighty consequence , and that many of the Ambassadors had not received any instructions thereabout from their Masters , therefore no finall resolution could be taken by them at that present , but that they would faithfully relate and recommend these businesses unto their Masters to bring them to some effectuall resolution . Secondly , That others which had received instructions from their Principalls , about the matter , had proposed two wayes of proceeding in the work , some thought it expedient , that the manner of proceeding which Master Dury had suggested unto the States , should be followed in bringing a Conference of peaceable Divines to passe , that a Fundamentall agreement in points necessary for salvation , according to the Example of the Conference held at Leipzigb might be setled ; And that to this effect , the States of the four Upper Circles should give up unto the Prince Elector Palatine , their more particular advices towards the furthering of the matter , and that the Declarations of the two Saxon Circles should be given up to the Elector of Saxony and Brandinburg , who then should agree amongst themselves concerning the time and place of a Meeting , which might be named unto the rest , and afterwards Invitatory Letters should be sent to forraine States and Princes to move them to send thither also some of their Divines . Thirdly , That others thought it no lesse expedient to proceed thus ; Namely , that the Electors of Saxony and Brandinburg should be intreated by the States , then met together , to reassume the amiable Conference , which was begun three yeers ago , betwixt their Divines , and those of Cassell , and to this effect that ( if not sooner , at least then ) when the Treaties of Peace Universall should be set on foote , a meeting should be appointed , whereunto peaceable Divines on both sides , both within , and out of the Empire should be called : In which meeting this should chiefly be aymed at , that an agreement should be made in a Common Confession of Faith containing all the Fundamentalls of Religion necessary for Salvation , setting other points of Scholasticall dispute aside . Fourthly , That the Ambassadors who had no instructions did promise to relate unto their Principalls , their advices , and procure fit resolutions thereupon , which should be sent unto the Civill Electors , professing the Protestant Religion . Fifthly , Moreover , that it was fully consented unto by some , and by some taken ad referendum , that in the mean time all Christian moderation was to be used on both sides , aswell in Preaching , as in Writing ; lest if this was not done , some hinderance might befall unto their Unitie , and being done by this means , the Civill Peace also might so much the more be advanced . Sixthly , That Prayers were to be conceived in the Churches of both sides , to intreat Almighty God to blesse these attempts . This was made an Act the fourteenth day of September , 1634. To which the seal of those which had the direction of the meeting was applyed , and all the chief hands did subscribe it . Of this Act , the Originall , sealed and subscribed , was given to Master Dury , to enable him to testifie authentically to other Churches , the resolution of the Protestant States , that thereby all well-willers unto the work might be encouraged to continue in setting it forward . Upon this ground he went again towards England through the Low-Countries , where he informed the Divines of his acquaintance , and the Deputies of the Provinciall Synodes of things past at Frauckfort , and elsewhere in these consultations , obliging them thereby to take the matter to heart . And when he arrived into England , My Lords Grace of Canterbury being informed of all matters , did by Sir Thomas Roes procurement recommend him to the King , who was pleased in taking more particular notice of his person , and work , then in former time , to permit him still to proceed . To which effect he went over again into Holland , with His Majesties Letters of safe Conduct ; with a testimoniall from my Lords Grace of Canterbury , bearing witnesse that Master Dury had acquainted him with the successe of his proceedings , that he went again out of England to prosecute the same businesse , not only with his knowledge , but also with his approbation , and assurance that he would be ready in due time , to advance 〈◊〉 holy desires of Peace . He had also private Letters from Doctor Davenant Lord Bishop of Salisbury , and Doctor Hall Lord Bishop of Excester , to some of the chief Divines of the Low-Countries , to move them , to concurre more effectually in these endeavours , then they had formerly done . Moreover , he had Letters from the Ambassador of the Lords States of the Low-Countries , residing at London unto the States both of Holland and Zealand . Thus he set forth , and arrived at the Hague in Iuly , the yeer 1635. There he dealt first with the States of Holland , to induce them to recommend these thoughts unto their Provinciall Synod which was then begun . Afterward he went to those of Zealand , and appeared in their Classicall meetings held at Walcheren , Zirickzee , Tolen and Goes , then he dealt with the University of Leyden , and the Synods as they came in order ; namely , with that of North-Holland , and of Vtrecht , and with the French Synod in those parts , from which Declarations were obtained , fit for the advancement of his purpose : When he had thus farre proceeded in Holland , and found that evill affected mindes towards Peace , raised ungrounded surmises against him , to stop the good inclinations of impartiall men , he used meanes to clear mens judgements , by causing somethings to be Printed for the better information of all . And having understood that the Lord Chancellor Oxonstiern was to go from Germany into Sweden , where he hoped that his Lordship would do more then in Germany he was able to do . For the work of Peace , at the perswasion of some friends , he took a journey thitherward , where he arrived in Iune , Anno 1636. Nor was he altogether disappointed of his expectation . For the Lord Chancellor coming thither favoured his work , and although his proceedings were slow , yet much realitie was found in them . For when a resolution was taken to permit Master Dury to treat with the Diviaes of that Kingdome , four places were named Stockholm , Vbsall , Westerose , and Strengnese , to which he might addresse himself particularly , and lay open his intention , having therefore first dealt with those of Stockholm , he had the Lord Chancellors Letters to make way for him , at the other places : of which the Vniversitie of Vbsall was the chief . There he had conference both Collegially and severally with the Professors of Divinitie , who gave full assent unto his desires , and set down these conditions , upon which they were ready to agree , and joyn with the reformed side . 1 `` That a full agreement should be made in all the fundamentall Articles of faith . 2 That all errors overthrowing the foundation , or tending to overthrow the same , should be condemned . 3 That in matters Ceremoniall and of indifferency , there should be a mutuall toleration . 4 That betwixt the parties united sincerity and uprightnesse should be maintained , lest ancient errors might be upheld under doubtful speeches . 5 That when peace is made , none should be suffered to maintain , excuse , or spread any more the errors once condemned . 6 That ambitious and needlesse disputes and brablings should be inhibited on all sides . 7 That former reproaches and injuries should be put to oblivion . 8 That the Church gouernment should be setled according to Apostolicall Rules . These demands the rest agreed unto , neither was any thing of moment added thereunto by any . Therefore being returned back again into Stockholm , and having informed the Lords Regents of that which was past , thoughts were entertained about the first , and the last of these conditions , as the chief of all the rest , namely , concerning Fundamentall Articles of Faith , and the establishment of Ecclesiasticall Government ; Touching the first , namely , how to limitate the number of Fundamentalls , and distinguish the same from Not fundamentals , Mr. Dury did impart a brief discourse unto those of Vbsall , to which they made no reply , as being loath to go too fast , before they should have the consent of their Brethren ; yet silently they assented thereunto . Concerning the second , because they then were , as even yet at this time , they are in deliberaration to settle their Ecclesiasticall Government , by Cannons , which they are about to make . Therefore both the Dean of the Faculty of Divinity at Vbsall , the Queens Tutor at Stockholm , and the Lord Chancellor conferred severall times with Mr. Dury , about that matter , to know the Constitutions of the Chief Reformed Churches , wherein he laboured to give them satisfaction ; and imparted also unto them the printed judgements of the English Prelats , Doctor Morton , Doctor Davenant , and Doctor Hall , which besides some other publike Treatises of the same nature , were communicated unto them . But the Lord Chancellor being desirous to confer more particularly , and at leisure , with Master Dury , about all matters belonging to the further advancing of the work of pacification , took him along in his company and Coach towards Vbsall , in a Circuit which he made thitherward from Stockholm , thorow Strengnese , and Westerose . In this progresse the the Bishops of Strengnese and Westerose , were dealt withall the second time . They setled good resolutions , and laid grounds for constant future treaties ; so far , that they had thoughts of sending some body into England ; Neverthelesse , before matters could be brought to full maturity , some of the German Lutherans hearing large reports of Master Duries proceeding in Sweden , and being moved with jealousie that the Swedes would come to some publike Treaties , and therein to a Conclusion without them , did expostulate the matter , and by letters endeavoured to disswade them from all further entertaining of his motions , by which means their spirits were troubled , and their resolutions so clogged , that from that time forward , they went heavily to work ; yet Master Dury hoping to overcome all such letts , did not leave the work , but laboured so much the more to engage them to it , by shewing wayes free from all exception , whereby the differences which they did stick at , might be composed . This he did first at Vbsall , and afterward at Stockholm , in a meeting of the chief Clergy , which was commanded to deal with him , wherein he gave them satisfaction to all their demands , in a whole dayes conference instituted to that effect , so that they seemed to acquiosse . And because they had laid this as a main ground , That if a Fundamentall agreement could be found in the Doctrine of the Lords Supper , they would not much stand to debate other matters . Therefore not long after their conference , he offered to the Archbishop and professors of Vbsall , a learned and Patheticall Declaration , which from the University of Aberdeine , and Ministry of Edinburg , was sent unto him , to shew the fundamentall agreement of Protestants in that point . At this Declaration some small exceptions were taken , in respect of certain forms of speeches contained therein , which Mr. Dury having fully explained , and thereby resolved their doubts , those of Vbsall did rest satisfied , but some others there were , who , having set themselves professedly against the work , would , by no means , receive any content . For , the more humbly , and discreetly , it was offered unto them , the more they sought to avoid it , and laboured by all means to cry down , and discredit the very purpose of agreement , lest the good liking which the Lords Regents did shew thereunto , might take some reall effect , and work upon the spirits of the common Clergie , a good impression to give way unto it : This their perversnesse being fully apparrant , moved Mr. Dury to deal in some kinde more strictly with them , than otherwise his inclination would have suffered him to do : yet at last , to avoid occasions of strife , he resolved to depart from thence , and let the businesse lie a while asleep ; but lest some unconscionable men might falsly traduce all his proceedings in his absence , as then already in his presence they had begun to do , by misinforming others , of his words and actions , and misinterpreting , suspiciously , his aim , he caused to print , ( before he went away from thence ) a Summary , and true Narrative , of all his chief actions and proposalls , which he offered to the Clergie of that Kingdom , met in a Convocation . And afterward , to the end they should have no just cause of false surmises , or pretext to traduce his intentions , he made a solemn Vow to binde himself to lawfull purposes and unblamable wayes of proceeding , which he put to Paper and presented to the Lord Chancellor to be imparted unto the chief of that Clergy . These preventions being used , when he was resolved to be gone , the Lords Regents were pleased , in the Queens Name , to give him a Declaration , and dimissory Letter , whereby his actions in Sweden were approved , bearing witnesse that Master Dury being come into Sweden to dispose the minds of their Clergy unto the work of Peace Ecclesiasticall , according to the grounds laid by the States of the Empire at Franckfort , Anno 1634. he had dealt by permission and command of her Majesty , with the chief Divines of that Kingdome ; and although some difficulties were risen , as in waightie matters is usuall , yet that he had not omitted any thing which could serve for the taking away of the same . Thus he went from Stockholm , Anno 1638. and came to Lubeck , there he had speech with Doctor Hunnius , one of the chief Divines of those quarters . Him he prepared to entertain the motion of Peace , which afterward should be made unto him . From Lubeck he set forward towards Hamburg to meet Sir Thomas Roe who there was residing as Ambassador Extraordinary from His Majesty of great Britaine towards the King of Denmark , and Princes of Germany . To him he gave attendance , all the while he staid in those parts , not leaving his former purpose , but rather using the advantage of his Lordships favourable countenance . In this new period of the negotiation , he went slowly to work , first because he looked towards the Swedes , how they would behave themselves after his departure ; Secondly , because he waited for some overture to begin , and make some Proposalls at the publike Treaties of Peace in Germany , which then was thought upon by reason of the Emperors Ambassador , who was come to those parts , and the Mediators which did offer themselves towards that negotiation . But when those Treaties were not likely to proceed , he went to Bremen , that he might acquaint the Divines of that place , with his former proceedings , and gain in time to come their assistance by way of Councell . These were very cordiall in the businesse , and entertaining him with all kindenesse , and liberalitie ( which no Germans before them had done ) such encouragements , and declarations were given , as he could desire both from the Clergy , and Magistrate of that Citie . Then he proceeded towards the King of Denmark , who was at Gluckstad , There with the good liking and countenance of my Lord Ambassador , he acquainted the Lord Chancellor Ravent●low with his desire to deal with the Clergy of Denmark . If His Majesty would give him leave so to do . His Majesty gave way to his demands , and was pleased to recommend certain Writs ( which his Chancellor received from Master Dury ) unto the consideration of his Divines of the Universitie of Coppenhagen . These gave their judgement , and advice concerning his negotiation , tending to shew their approbation of the purpose , their particular Counsell , and Proposalls in prosecuting of it , and their willingnesse to treate further about it , with Master Dury , if his Majesty would give permission thereunto . The King caused their judgement to be delivered to Master Dury ; who thereupon did accept of the offer of their Treatie , and gave them a large Answer to all their propositions containing divers overtures towards a constant progresse in a Theologicall way of Treatie . U●to this answer , by His Majesties Command , they gave a further declaration of their judgement ; whereunto Master Dury having replyed , and shewed His Majesty a brief , and ready way to come to the purpose , the King was pleased to write unto my Lord Ambassador , to let him know that he thought it fit , Master Dury should be more particularly authorized from England , before the matter could proceed betwixt him and his Divines to any issue . Whiles these matters were thus in agitation , Master Dury dealt also with the Magistrates , and Ministry of Hamburg , and Lubeck , and with the Most Reverend , and Most Illustrious Archbishop of Bremen , who gave him a reference to some chief Divines , who entertained his motions with very good liking , and gave him an answer to the same . In like manner he made Proposalls to those of Stode , who took the same into mature consideration , and promised to concurre with others in answering . At last he went to those of Brunswick , and Luneburg , where , with the singular favour of those Princes , and by the most pious and peaceable inclinations of their Councellors , and chief Divines , towards the Work of Reconcilement , a ground was laid for a very effectuall progresse . For they have made the Work their own , undertaking to dispose the rest of the Lutheran Churches , and Universities , unto a reall concurrence in it , that afterwards they may proceed with our Churches , joyntly , to a full conclusion . Duke Augustus of Brunswick was the first to whom Master Dury made his addresse : this learned , and wise Prince , was pleased , in favour of the Work , not only to convocate his chief Divines , and appoint them , with some of his Councellors of State , to conferre Collegially , a whole day with Master Dury , but also to settle a resolution , which his Divines subscribed , obliging themselves thereby , to joyn in all the wayes of agreement , whereof they had conferred together ; and moreover , to recommend the matter to his Cozen Duke George , by a large , and most effectuall Letter . With this addresse he came to Duke George , residing at Hildesheim , where he had no lesse , but rather more favourable entertainment then he had gotten at Brunswick . For , by an Act of Councell the chief Divines , who then were in place , were appointed to visit and entertain him , till others that were sent for should come ; And when the chief of them were come , Master Dury was lodged and entertained with him in one house , at the Princes charge , for the space of fourteen dayes , that they together might ripen matters , and bring their thoughts to a head . Which being done , a Committee of some Councellors of State was appointed to give them publike audience in the Prince His name , to hear them confer upon the matter of agreement , to consider their Councels , and joynt resolutions , and to make relation thereof unto the Prince , that by his authority , and Countenance , such assistance might be given to the Work , in due time , as should be thought expedient . All which being done , first , the Divines gave to Master Dury , a Theologicall Declaration , wherein they testified their agreement to all his Proposalls , and then their more particular resolutions , concerning the manner of proceeding which they would follow in the future advancement of the Work on their part , were also imparted unto him . The substance whereof was this . That Doctor Calixtus chief professor of the University of Helmestat should , by order of the Prince , put forth some Treaties , wherein the heads of matters in dispute amongst Protestants should be handled Historically out of Antiquity , to shew what the Church of all ages hath beleeved thereof , and how , notwithstanding some difference of opinion thereabout among the Ancient Fathers , Brotherly love was alwayes maintained . These Treaties should be thus improved ; First they should be sent unto the Lutheran Universities of Wittenberg , Leipzigh , Iena , Marpurg , and Rostock , and also to those of Brandenburg , Hessen and Bremen , to move them to declare their judgements therein for mutuall agreement . Then , at some fit occasion some body should go to Leipzigh and Wittenberg , and deal with the Saxon Electorall Professors by word of mouth , to dispose them to a full resolution in this businesse . To which effect also the Prince should move the two Dukes of Saxon Weymar , Duke William , and Duke Ernestus , who have long wished for this Reconciliation , to cause their University of Iena to cooperate therein ; And in processe of time , when the businesse should be brought by this way of proceeding , to some considerable ripenesse , then it should be required , that from great Britain , and elsewhere , some body might be joyned to Master Dury , and also from Germany some body should go into England , and other parts , to speak with the chief Divines of those Churches ▪ that when there should be good hopes of bringing the matter to passe , then the Soveraign Princes and States of all sides should be intreated to agree upon a meeting , to make some conclusion in the matter : for the good successe whereof , publike prayers should be made with common consent in all the Churches . These resolutions being taken , when the Prince himself had spoken to Master Dury , and given him assurance of his willingnesse to set forward this purpose , he did dismisse him with a recommendatory Letter unto his brother , Duke Frederick , residing at Zelle , who in like manner received Master Dury very kindely , and moved his Divines to confer with him . In this conference , when they had received satisfaction to some doubts which were proposed , they gave consent unto all which was concluded at Brunswick and Hildesheim . From Zelle he went to the free City of Luneburg , where he acquainted the Ministery of the place with his Proposalls made unto other Churches , that they might also take the same into their consideration , and in due time , with consent of their Protector , Dr. Frederick , resolve what to do therein . Thus the Circuit of Brunswick and Luneburg being finished , he returned to Hamburgh in February , An. 1640. from whence without delay he went towards my Lord Ambassador , Sir Thomas Roe , who was at Gluckstad , with the King of Denmark , to give him account of all the passages of his proceedings . There he also dealt further with the Lord Chancellor , Detloff Raventlow , and the King himself was pleased , upon my Lord Ambassador his recommendation , to give him accesse to kisse his hand , and in presence of his Son , the Archbishop of Bremen , to speak with him about the setting forward of his purpose . In which discourse , his Majesty shewed a good liking to his proceedings , and gave way that , if he thought fit , he should make new proposalls , touching means of Reconcilement , unto his Divines , that they might have further occasion to entertain these thoughts as well as others . Hereupon Master Dury did impart unto the forenamed Lord Chancellor , a paper , containing certain heads , fit to be Theologically consulted upon by them , that their resolutions touching the same , might in due time be framed , and also made publike , if they themselves thought it expedient . Thus the Treaties at Denmark being again set on foot , he returned from Gluckstad with my Lord Ambassador towards Hamburg , and gave , by letters , information into England , concerning all matters of moment , which passed in his work . Then also some writes , presented formerly unto the Divines of Denmark , were made publike , that many who desired to know the passages of that negotiation , might have satisfaction therein . Not long after , my Lord Ambassador was recalled from Germany into England , about which time the private disputes amongst those of Bremen were come to some height : for those that were most inclinable to moderation , suffering wrong , had sought Master Duries advice , and desired his help to compose their doubtfull questions . Therefore he sent to some of the Prelates of the Church of England , and some of the Professors of Divinity , in both Universities , certain Writs , which the chief Divines of Bremen submitted unto their judgements , containing the true state of their difference , which reflecteth much upon the main controversie debated betwixt the reformed , and the Lutheran Divines ; therefore the decision thereof , will be a singular preparative for the common and more publike Unity of all Protestants . To these Writes , the Lord Bishops of Salisbury , and of Exceter have already given their answers , and the rest to whom they are sent , have promised to do the like , who , no doubt , will be as good as their word ; In the mean time Master Dury ripened , somewhat , matters towards the Lutherans , and endeavoured to smooth the knottinesse of the Clergy of Hamburg and Lubeck . For , finding some warping of their intentions , which he perceived would bend another way then was expedient ; he dealt first with Doctor Hunnius a leading man at Lubeck , and then with the Senior Preacher of Hamburg , that when these two should be set in a right way , the lesse-knowing and more clamorous Clergy might be more easily perswaded , and wrought to admit the thoughts of moderation . As for Doctor C. lixtus , although some men of strife , and evill willers to him , did undertake to disturb him in these peaceable thoughts , yet being strongly countenanced , by Superiors , he hath begun to perform his promise , giving Master Dury full assurance of his constancy , and of the concurrence of many others towards the furtherance of the same Councells . And because the opposition made against Doctor Calixtus , by his Brethren , was like unto that which the chief Professors of Bremen suffered by their Brethren , Master Dury conceived that the similitude of their cases , might be a motive to induce them to mutuall correspondency , in the work of Reconcilement . Therefore having gotten the Originall Writes which Bishop Davenant , and Bishop Hall sent to those of Bremen , he went thither , to deliver the same , and conferre with them about the matter , whereunto he found them exceeding well inclined . In the way going thither , he dealt with one Statius Buscherus , Doctor Calixtus his chief opposer , endeavouring to mollifie and withdraw him from some preposterous courses : and coming back again , he stayed a whole day at Bremervorde , the Residence of the Most Illustrious and Reverend Archbishop of Bremen , with whom he had twice occasion of large conference , tending to give him satisfaction ( which he also received ) concerning some doubts , which he had conceived of the Work . From thence passing through Stade , and having insinuated unto the chief Preacher of that place Mr Haveman some writes tending to Pacification , he arrived at Buxtehude , where he met with Master Scholvinus the Pastor of the place , a learned and moderate Lutheran Divine , whom he confirmed in a course of conference , and correspondency , begun with Doctor Bergius at Bremen , towards the ripening of matters belonging to Pacification . Then being come back to Hamburg he made himself ready to return for England : And to this effect took his leave of the Magistrat , and Ministry of that place : some of the Magistrate were very earnest with him to persevere in the prosecuting of his work , and the Ministery gave him their answer in Writ , shewing that they were willing to proceed ; first by way of private correspondency in writing , and then by way of publike meeting , when things should be ripened . Before he went from Hamburg he sent by Sea to the chief Prelates , who in England had assisted him , a Treatise , which Doctor Calixtus of Helmstat , had written in behalf of the work , that they might declare their judgement unto him concerning the same . Then he passed again through Buxtehude , and Stade , where he confirmed Master Haveman and Scholvinus , in their resolutions to moderation , and dealt again with Statius Buscherus , to take off the edge of his spirit against Doctor Calixtus . At Bremen he stayed fourteen dayes , to print an Information directed to all the Reformed Churches , concerning the Councels of Peace , whereunto the Lutheran side doth give way , that if the same finde on the Reformed side in like manner approbation , the businesse may be in due time set forward by publike authority . From Bremen he went to Oldenburg , where he dealt with the Superintendent of that place , and by his means presented to the Earl of Oldenburg , that which was fit to give him information of his work . From thence he came to Embden , where he stayed certain dayes , to insinuate the printed Information unto the Divines , both of the Citie , and of the County . At Groningen he did the like : from whence coming to Amsterdam , he conferred with the chief Divines of his acquaintance there , and sent to all the Presbyteries ( which they call Classes ) of North-Holland , and neighbouring parts ; so many copies of the printed Information , with adjoyned letters , as were requisite to be imparted unto them . From the Hague he did the like unto all the Presbyteries of South-Holland and Zealand , and of the neighboring places , as also to the Synods which are to be held in every Province . Thus having given satisfaction to the chief of the Low-Countries , and used means to send information from Amsterdam into Helvetia , and from the Hague into France , he came to Zealand , and took Shipping for England : Where he safe arrived , and purposeth to make sute now unto all those that are able to give assistance unto so good a businesse , but chiefly to supplicate his Sacred Majesty , and the High and Honorable Court of Parliament , that those good preparatives , and hopefull beginnings , so far , and with so much pains advanced , may not be suffered to fall , without profit , unto the ground , through want of all outward countenance , and help necessary to uphold such a Spirituall Agency . All parties have been dealt withall , their dispositions are sufficiently tryed and discovered , their Leaders are all ingaged to concurre , neither hath any of the forraign Churches taken offence at the carriage of the work : but every where , the Princes and Councellors of State have professed a great deal of liking thereunto . Therefore it ought to be kept afoot , and upheld in the spirits of men for many pregnant reasons , which elsewhere are alleadged more at large : But now we will mention onely this , that as we are bound in Conscience , at all times to maintain the care of Brotherly love , and holy Communion , in Spirituall things , so now , at this time , we finde it absolutely necessary , even for our own temporall safety so to do , because if this care be not taken to heart , it is most certain , that the breaches of Protestant States and Churches , which have made many of them a prey unto their enemies , will , in the end , betray them all , and at last come to such a height , that they will devour and consume one another . Therefore all true-hearted Protestants , that are zealous for Gods glory , and the safety of his Church , but chiefly those that are in authority , or credit , able to dispose others ; are humbly intreated to embrace these thoughts without partiality , considering the Apostles exhortation , Phil. 2. 4. That every one should not look on his own things , to seek himself alone , But , that he should also lay to heart the things of others , and chiefly such as may tend most unto publike edificacation . For if we be commanded every one of us , Rom. 15. 2. to please our Neighbour for his good to edification : then surely we ought farre more to labour to please all , in that which is best . And if every one ought to do this , then most of all those that are eminent in place , and in credit with others : For to whom doth this duty rather belong , than unto such . As then the work ought not either to be agitated without the knowledge and consent of Superiors in Church and Common-wealth , or to be publikely afoot without their authority , so they are called and appointed to be Builders of the house of God , before all others , and this is the cause why thus we sue unto them , and would have all such as love the well-fare of Sion , to second our suit . For what can be conceived more usefull to the Church of God at any time , than the Councels of Peace are at this time ? Nay , what is more necessary to prevent all manner of confusions , and disorders now growing upon all the Churches , than this endeavour is ? Therefore again and again , all men of gifts ought to be entreated , for the love which Christians should bear unto Christ Jesus their Saviour , for the respects due unto the Commandements of God , for the comfort which the Gospell of Truth is able to yeeld unto their own souls , for the bowels of Compassion , which they ought to bear unto the afflicted Church of Christ ( their Spirituall Mother ) and for the fear of Gods dreadfull Indignation , and stretched out hand , now ready to fall upon those , that presumptuously despise , and carelesly neglect his expresse Commandements : I say , that all men of gifts , for these causes ought to set their hearts upon the Councells of Peace , and imploy their Talents for mutuall edification , in shewing the means of Brotherly love , of meeknesse , of righteousnesse , of humility , of mercy , and moderation , for the enlarging of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ , whose love doth constrain us to propose , in this manner , these things without all humane respects , and maketh us earnest with freedom ( as not being ashamed of our duty ) to presse the matter thus home , upon the Conscience of every one in his distinct charge and place , that at least , such as have any feeling of godlinesse , and know what the power of Religion requireth in our publike Profession , should not want some Spirituall provocation , and awaking of their hearts towards the performance of that , which is required in the Communion of Saints . 
A41594	----	A discourse of the use of images in relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome in vindication of Nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled The antiquity of the Protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. Gother, John, d. 1704. 1687 Approx. 70 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 20 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A41594 Wing G1328 ESTC R15744 13594131 ocm 13594131 100730 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A41594) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 100730) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 788:33) A discourse of the use of images in relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome in vindication of Nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled The antiquity of the Protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. Gother, John, d. 1704. 39 p. Printed by Henry Hills ..., London : 1687. Written by John Gother. Cf. DNB. "Publisht with allowance." Reproduction of original in the University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign Campus). Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Gother, John, d. 1704. -- Nubes testium. Pelling, Edward, d. 1718. -- Antiquity of the Protestant religion. Church of England -- Customs and practices. Catholic Church -- Customs and practices. Idols and images -- England -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2007-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-10 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-12 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-12 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DISCOURSE OF THE Use of Images : In Relation to the Church of England AND THE Church of Rome . In Vindication of NUBES TESTIUM . Against a Pamphlet Entitled , The Antiquity of the Protestant Religion concerning Images , directed against some Leaves of that Collection . Publisht with Allowance . LONDON , Printed by Henry Hills , Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty , for His Houshold and Chappel . 1687. A Discourse of the Use of Images : In relation to the Church of England and the Church of Rome . In Vindication of NUBES TESTIUM . THE Factious and Unchristian Temper of our Age has so unhappily spread it self thro' all Ranks of Men , that even those , whose business ought to be the Advancement of Piety , have not escap'd it 's malignant Influence . And this they evidence too clearly to the world , whilst They shew themselves so industrious in multiplying the number of many needless Contentions in the Church , instead of endeavouring to lessen and abate them . This is the Misfortune of him , who undertakes to assert the Antiquity of the Protestant Religion concerning Images , in Answer to a Dozen Leaves of Nubes Testium : Who because he is a Profess'd and Virulent Enemy to Catholics , seems resolv'd to contradict and Ridicule , in a strain of Drollery more becoming the Stage than his Coat , every thing they Believe and Teach , tho' it be the very Doctrin of his own Church . And like a Blind Combatant strikes at all before him , without distinction of Friend and Enemy , with a Have at all . At this Game plays this Undertaker ; whose only care being to write an Answer in FULL , Answers , and Condemns even those Practices , as are allow'd and approv'd by his own Church ; and in this new Method of Controversie spends the greatest part of his Twelve-penny Pamphlet : So that tho' he pretends to be a Son of the Church of England , yet whosoever considers , how often he strikes that Church in the Face , must needs question the Legitimation , and necessarily conclude , that 't is Uncertain What Church he is of , whilst the only thing Certain is , That he is No Papist . This whole matter , as to his needless multiplying of Controversies , and opposing the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of England , as well as that of the Church of Rome , I 'll shew briefly in declaring , what the Church of Rome and England teach concerning , 1. The Historical Use of Sacred Images . 2. The Commemorative Use of Images . 3. The Respect and Honor due to Images . In all which if it be made appear that the Two Churches agree , there will need but little more , to prove This Answerer a Trisler , whilst he so laboriously sets himself against both ; and at the end of all , says nothing to the purpose . 1. As to the Historical Vse of Images , 't is the Profess'd Doctrin and Practice of the Church of Rome , to have the Pictures and Images of Holy Things and Passages both in Houses and Churches , for the instruction of the Ignorant in the knowledge of the History of both the Old and New Testament ; that so they may be acquainted with those Sacred Persons of Patriarchs , Prophets and Apostles , and be inform'd of the Wonderful Works wrought by God in Mans Creation and Redemption . This appears in the Council of Trent Sess . 25 and in the Catechism ad Parochos part . 3. de Invoc . Sanc. par . 40. Both which agree , that Holy Pictures and Images are made , to inform the People of the History of Holy Writ , and that for this end they are set up in Churches and other Places . This same Historical Vse of Holy Images is conform likewise to the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of England , as is evident in Mr. Montagu's Appeal to Caesar , who declaring the Church of England's Own , Proper , True and Antient Tenets , ( Ep. Ded. to the King ) such as be without any doubt or question , Legitimate and Genuine , such as she will both acknowledge and maintain for her own , in this Book Authoris'd and Publish'd by Express order of King James and Charles l. and approv'd as containing nothing in it , but what was agreeable to the Doctrin and Discipline establish'd in the Church of England ( Ib. ) says expresly , c. 20. that Images were improv'd unto an Historical Vse in St. Gregory 's time , and then adds ; Had the Church of Rome gon no farther in Practice or Precept , than that which St. Gregory recommends , our Church ( says he ) I suppose ( for so our Doctrin is ) would not blame them , nor have departed from them about that Point . And agen chap. 23. Doth the English Church condemn the Historical or Civil use of Images ? It do's not ( says he ) in Practice ; all the World knows that ; nor yet in Precept or Doctrin , that I know . And at the end of the same Chapter , he says , Images may be had and made — ut Ornatui sint , ut Memoriae , ut Historiae ; For Ornament , for Commemoration , and for History ; and that they may be made for such Ends , No Law of God forbiddeth , says our Gamaliel , pa. 203. ad Apol. Bel. From whose words , in a Book so Authentic , and approv'd by Two Kings , Heads of the Church , 't is beyond question , that the Historical Vse of Images is agreeable to the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of England . And this do's most Evidently appear to any , that will but put his head into any Church of this Communion , where presently Moyses , and Aaron shew themselves to the Beholder , and let him know the concern they had in Those Commandements , which they there guard betwixt them . This may be seen with great advantage in the Church at the Savoy , where besides these Two Saints of the Jewish Law , the Four Evangelists have their place in full proportion between the side Windows , with St. Peter , and St. Stephen , and the Twelve Apostles in twelve Niches on the Front of the Gallery . But above all , the New Church in St. James's in the Fields commends this Practice in a Rare Piece of Workmanship , where the hand of the Artist has set forth to the Life upon the Font , the History of Original Sin , and it's Cure in the Water of Baptism . Adam and Eve stand beneath , Confessing the guilt of that Sin , for which Infants are brought thither to be cleans'd . Round the Bason is seen Christ under the hand of the Baptist in Jordan , authorising the Institution of that Salutary Laver : And over it is an Angel , as it were descending to move the Waters , and to signifie that the efficacy of that Sacrament is from above . Then if you turn towards the Altar , in one Figure is represented the Institution of the Blessed Sacrament at the Last Supper : The very same which is over the Altar at his Majesties Chappel at Whitehal , and for the very same intent , viz. A Pellican feeding her Young ones with her Blood ; to signifie what Christ gives to the Faithful , his Children , in the Sacrament , that he feeds them with his Blood. Much more may be seen in Cathedral and Collegiate Churches of this kind , not only in relation to the Old , but New Testament , even the Crucifixion of our Saviour , but especially in the New Common-Prayer-Books , interleav'd with Pictures . 2ly . As to the Commemorative Vse of Images , 't is receiv'd and approv'd in the Church of Rome , as 't is explicated in the Council of Trent above cited , where 't is said ; That the Use of Holy Images is Beneficial to the People , because by them they are put in mind of the Benefits and Blessings receiv'd from Christ ; and by seeing the Wonderful Miracles wrought by the Power of God , and the Exemplary Lives of the Saints , they are excited to give God Thanks for such Favors , to love him , and compose their Lives according to the Exemple of such Holy Men. The same is declared in the Catechism ad Parochos , ut sup . where the Parish Priest is directed to inform the People ; That Holy Images are plac'd in Churches , to put them in mind of the Divine Mysteries and Blessings , that so they may be more Zealous and Attentive in the Love and Service of so Good a God. And that by beholding the Representations of the Saints , they may be admonish'd , to conform their Lives to such Examples . Thus teaches the Church of Rome . The Church of England likewise agrees with her in the same Doctrin and Practice ; allowing of Images , as helps to Piety , and for the affecting the minds of the Beholders with Pious Cogitations , and encouraging them to a Vertuous and Exemplary Life . This is most apparent in the Injunctions given by King Edward VI. to his Clergy and Ministers , wherein they are order'd to Instruct the People in their Circuits , that Images serve for Remembrance , whereby Men may be admonish'd of the holy Lives and Conversation of them that the said Images Represent . Which is the very Doctrin now mention'd in the Council of Trent and Catechism ad Parochos . This Mr. Montagu explicates more at large , in his Book call'd A New Gag , &c. where treating of Images , he says to the Papists : Images have these uses assign'd by your Schools — The Instruction of the Ignorant , the Refreshing of History , and Exciting Devotion : You and WE also give unto them these . And a little after , The Pictures of Christ , the Blessed Virgin , and Saints may be made , and had in Houses , set up in Churches . — The Protestants do it , and use them for Helps of Piety . In his Appeal to Caesar likewise he thus delivers the Sense of the Church of England in this affair , c. 21. Our strictest Writers , says he , do not condemn or censure St. Gregory for putting upon them ( Images ) that Historical use of suggesting unto , moving or affecting the mind even in Pious and Religious Affections : For Instance , in Remembring more feelingly , and so being empassion'd more effectually , with the Death , Blood-shed and Bitter Passion of our Saviour , when we see that Story fully and lively Represented unto us in Colors , or Work by a Skilful hand . And I know not the Man that is made of human Mold , but when he readeth on this ( Painted ) Book , his Tragical Endurances for Man , will reflect upon himself , and his own Soul and Conscience , with a Lively apprehension of Man's Sin , God's Love , Christ's endeared Charity , in undergoing these unknown Sufferings for our sake . Thus this Eminent Author most feelingly explicates the Pious use of Holy Images , as proper for the suggesting Good Thoughts , and inflaming the Soul with most Christian Affections , in order to the Love and Service of God. In this the Reader may behold , how little Difference , or rather how great an Agreement there is between the Legitimate and Genuin Doctrin of the Church of England , and the Church of Rome , as to these two first Points mention'd , viz. The Historical and Commemorative Vse of Sacred Images . Now when a Member of the Church of Rome has endeavor'd to shew , that this Doctrin as to the Historical and Commemorative Vse of Holy Images is agreeable to the Antient Church , as is done in Nubes Testium ; who could ever expect , that any Member of the Church of England , much less a Divine , should appear , bidding Defiance to such Doctrin , with endeavors to shew the Practice of it to be Heathenish , Heretical , and but a Popish Invention ? Could a Man think , that any Church of England Divine would take so much pains to abuse and Ridicule his own Church ? Certainly he must be either very Ignorant of what his own Church teaches ; or very blindly Malicious against the Church of Rome , that to expose her , should not care what Mischief he did his own Mother Church . But thus it happens sometimes , when Men are guided by Passion instead of Truth and Reason ; 't is impossible to avoid these Absurdities , when such Bitter Spirits take Pen in hand , who look no further in Answering , than to Contradict their Adversary , right or wrong . And how far this Answerer has done this , 't will be not amiss in this Place to consider . 1st . Then he pretends to shew , pa. 20. That the first making of Pictures among Christians proceeded partly from the Example of some HERETICS . This Bolt he shoots against the Papists : But will not any Reader presently reflect , that if Pictures in Churches , be not a Christian Institution , but the Corruption of Heretics ; that the Church of England , for all the Pictures they set up in their Churches , follow not Christ and his Apostles , as they pretend , but the Invention of Heretics ? And what Credit is this to his Church ? 2ly . He asserts ib. that the making Pictures among Christians had it's Origin principally from the Fond Inclinations of those , who being Converted from Heathenism to Christianity , retain'd still an old relish and love of those Superstitious ▪ Practices , to which they had been accustom'd so long . Is not this to let the Person of Quality , to whom he writes , know ; that the Church of England , in using and allowing Sacred Pictures of Christ , his Apostles , &c. ( as is shewn above ) in Houses and Churches , follows not only an Heretical Abuse , but likewise the Superstitious Practices of Heathens ? 3ly . He says , that there was no such thing , pa. 15. as the Vse of Images in the Primitive Ages . Which is to inform his Reader , that the Church of England , as to this Point of Images , is faln from the Christianity of the Primitive Times ; and that she stands in need of a Reformation . 4ly . He shews pa. 22. that the having Pictures in Churches , is contrary to an Express Canon of the Council of Eliberis , held An. 305. by the Fathers of the Primitive Church . In which he condemns his own Church for contradicting the Positive Decrees of so Antient a Council . 5ly . From the Example of an Antient Bishop renting a Veil or Hanging , whereon was the Image of Christ , he declares , pa. 25. in the words of the Bishop , such Pictures to be contrary to the Authority of the Scriptures . Which is plainly to tell the World , that the Use of Hangings , such as have Christ , or his Saints Represented on them , as may be seen in many Houses , in Cathedral and Collegiate Churches , are all contrary to the Word of God. These are some of the Severe Reflections he makes upon his own Church , while he 's blindly knocking down Popery . Who could desire a better condition'd Antagonist than this , who is so Good-natur'd , as never to strike at his Adversary , but he gives himself a Blow over the Face at the same time ? Has not he fairly defended his own Church , while he thus exposes her under the Guilt of being Heathenish , Heretical , going contrary to the Primitive Church , to Councils and Scriptures , which is the Blackest of that Dirt , he has done his best to cast upon the Church of Rome ? Hitherto the Reader has seen the Doctrin of the Church of Rome and of England , as far as concerns the Two First Points , viz. the Historical and Commemorative Use of Holy Images ; and how this Worthy Answerer , with some wrested and misapply'd Passages of Antiquity , strikes most rashly at Both Churches ; not caring , so he can but overthrow the Church of Rome , what other Church , tho' his own , falls with her . Now we will consider the Third Point , which is of the Honor and Respect due to these Images of Christ , &c. And as to this , The Church of Rome teaches , that the Images of Christ , &c. ought to be kept , especially in Churches , and DUE Honor and Veneration given them : Not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believ'd to be in them , for which they are to be Worship'd ; or that any thing is to be Asked of them , or any Confidence to be placed in them , as was done by the Heathens ; but because the Honor shewn to them is referr'd to the Prototypes , or Things Represented by them : So that by the Images we Kiss , and before which we Kneel , we Adore Christ and Reverence his Saints , whom the said Images Represent . So the Council of Trent delivers this Doctrin , Sess . 25. The like is shewn in the Catechism ad Parochos , ubi sup . And the whole meaning of it is nothing more , than what was given at large by Leontius Bishop of Cyprus , who flourish'd An. 620. that is , above a Thousand and threescore years ago ; who thus makes his Apology for the Christians against the Jews , who charg'd them with the breach of the second Commandment , in giving honor to Images . The Pictures and Images , says he , of the Saints are not ador'd amongst us , like Gods. For if I Worship'd the Wood of an Image , as God , I might as well do the like to any other Wood : If I honor'd the Wood as God , I would never throw it into the fire , when the Image is once disfigur'd . — As therefore he that has receiv'd a Commission from his Prince , and kisses the Seal , dos not respect the Wax , the Paper or the Lead , but gives the Honor to the King ; so we Christians , when we shew Respect to the Figure of the Cross , do not honor the Nature of the Wood , but the Sign , the Pledge , the Remembrance of Christ ; through this beholding him , who was Crucified on it , we respect and Adore him . And as Children , full of a dear Affection to their Father , who is Absent from them , do kiss with Tears , and with all Tenderness embrace his Stick , his Chair , his Coat , which they see at home ; and yet do not adore these things , but express their Desire and Honor they have for their Father : Just so do all we Faithful honor the Cross , as Christs Staff ; the most Holy Sepulcher , as his Chair and Couch , the Manger and Bethleem as his House , &c. Not that we honor the Place , the House , the Country , the City or the Stones , but Him that was Conversant amongst them , who appear'd in our Flesh , and deliver'd us from Error , Christ our Lord ; and for Christ we honor those Things , which belong to him , describing his Passion in our Churches , in our Houses , in the Streets , in Images , upon our Linen , in our Chambers , upon our Cloths , and upon every Place , to the end that having these continually before our Eyes , we may be put in mind , and not like thee ( O Jew ) forget our Lord and God. As you therefore expressing a veneration for the Book of the Law , do not Honor the Paper or Ink of which 't is compos'd , but the Word of God contain'd in it : So I , shewing Reverence to the Image of Christ , do not Adore ( no , God forbid ) the Wood or the Colors ; but having an Inanimate Representation of Christ , by this seem to be possess'd of , and to Worship Christ himself . As Jacob having receiv'd the party-color'd and Bloody Coat of his Son Joseph , kiss'd it , full of Tears , and put it to his Eyes ; not doing this for any Love or Honor he had for the Coat ; but by this seeming to kiss Joseph , and hold him in his Arms : So all Christians , holding or kissing any Image of Christ , of his Apostles or Martyrs , do the like to Christ himself , or his Martyrs , in the affection of their Souls . By all which 't is evident , that all the Honor and Veneration paid by Catholics to any Picture or Image of Christ or his Martyrs , is only to express the Love and Honor they have for Christ and his Martyrs ; and that in thus doing , they no more commit Idolatry , or make Gods of those Pictures , than that Woman is disloyal to her Husband , who in affection to him , respects and kisses his Picture ; than that Subject is a Traytor to his Prince , who Honors his Portraiture ; or than all those , who pay a Reverence to the Chair of State , for the Relation it has to the King , make a King of the Chair , in so doing . This then is the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of Rome . The Church of England seems to concur with the Church of Rome in all this Point . This may be gather'd partly out of the Ecclesiastical Canons agreed to An. 1603. in the First year of King James I. where Can. 30. 't is said , That the Holy Ghost did so Honor by the mouths of the Apostles , the very NAME of the Cross , that it did not only comprehend even Christ Crucified under that Name , but likewise the efficacy of Christ's Death and Passion , &c. In which words this Church acknowledges , the Giving Honor to the NAME of the Cross to have been the Practice of the Apostles , as they were inspir'd by the Holy Ghost . And that the Name of the Cross , was not only to put them in mind of the Person , whom they were to Worship ( as a Modern Doctor says of the Name of Jesus , ) but that the Holy Ghost did by the Apostles , Honor the very NAME it self . Spiritus S. per Apostolorum ora , ipsum Crucis Nomen usque adeo honoravit . And in honoring that Name , did honor Christ Crucified ; Christum ipsum Crucifixum sub eodem comprehenderet . Which is the very Practice and Sense of Catholics , both as to the Name of the Cross , of Jesus , and of Pictures ; Names or Words being Pictures to the Ear , as Pictures are Words to the Eye . But it comes nearer our Case , what is added in the same Canone 2 o. Honor ac Dignitas Crucis Nomini acquisita , etiam & SIGNO Crucis , vel ipsa Apostolorum aetate ( neque enim contrarium ostendi potest ) existimationem peperit Honorificam . The Honor and Esteem shewn to the NAME of the CROSS , did produce even in the Age of the Apostles , an honorable Esteem likewise for the SIGN of the Cross ; neither can any thing contrary to this be prov'd . What can be plainer , than that according to this Canon , 't is the Sense of the Church of England , that the Primitive Christians were taught by the Apostles , not only to Honor the Name of the Cross , but likewise the SIGN of the Cross ? And certainly , if according to this Church , the Apostles taught their Followers , to honor in their Hearts and Souls the Sign of the Cross , it can neither be contrary to the Apostles , nor this Church , to do so now , and to express this Honor outwardly , which they are thus taught to conceive inwardly , and entertain in their hearts . 'T is an Absurdity sure too great , to fall upon the Church of England , thus absolutely to approve the Affection of Honor and Esteem towards the Sign of the Cross in Christians Hearts , as both a Christian Duty and an Apostolical Doctrin ; and then afterwards , to condemn the same Honor and Affection of the Soul , as Idolatry and Superstition , when 't is express'd Outwardly , either in Words or Gesture : For how is it possible , that what is Apostolical in the Heart , should , by being express'd outwardly , become Idolatrous ? This Doctrin is deliver'd more expresly by Mr. Montague , who in his Book call'd a New Gag , thus declares the Express Tenet of Catholics and of his own Church , p. 318. You say the Pictures of Christ , the Blessed Virgin and Saints , must not have Latria ; So We. You give them Dulia ; I quarrel not the Term , tho' I could . There is a Respect due unto , and Honor given Relatively to them . If this you call Dulia , We give it too . Let Practice and Doctrin go together , We agree . Nay he shews farther , 't is impossible to keep or set up the Pictures of Christ or his Saints , without having a REVERENCE and HONOR for them , in due kind . Hear him in his own words , in his Appeal to Caesar , c. 21. But it has distasted some ( says he ) that RESPECT and HONOR should be given unto them ( Images of Christ . ) Strange it should displease any , that can approve of any , be it but a Civil use of them . I cannot tell ; unless Men would ins●●ntly have them pull'd down in all places , demolish'd , stamp'd to powder , whosesoever , whatsoever , wheresoever . The setting of them up , suffering them to stand , using them for Ornaments , for helps of Memory , of Affection , of Rememoration , cannot be abstracted , to my Vnderstanding , from Reverence and Honor Simply , in due kind . Can a Man have the True Representation of his Prince , Parents , Patrons , &c. without Awe , Respect , Regard , Love , Reverence , moved by Aspect , and wrought in him ? I profess my Imperfection , or what they will call it , it is so with me . Unco impacto in Latrinas , in Gemonias , in malam Crucem , the Pictures , Statues , Paintings , Representations , of Christ , the Virgin , Apostles , Martyrs , Holy Men and Women ; unless the very having and preserving of them , do in some sort imply RESPECT , REGARD and HONOR done unto them , without offence justly given , without Scandal , or Inclination to Impiety . Then he urges the Truth of this Doctrin with the words of Junius . Junius , says he , was no Papist ; not in your opinion , I hope . He in his Animadversions upon Bellarmin de Imaginibus , says , Hoc nemo NOSTRVM dicit , non esse COLENDAS , nec ullo modo . Suo modo COLI probamus , velut Imagines ; at non religioso cultu , qui aut superstitiosus est , aut impius ; nec cùm aliorum scandalo , sive Cultus separatus sive conjunctus cum eorum Cultu intelligatur , quorum sunt Imagines . None of us say , that Images are no ways to be worship'd . We prove that they are to be worship'd in a way peculiar to them , as Images , but not with a Religious Worship , which is either Superstitious or Impious : Neither to the scandal of others , whether the Worship be understood the same , or different from that which is given to the things Represented by them . Thus this Learned Man delivers and defends the Doctrin of his Church in relation to the Images of Christ and his Saints , against the Arguments of some Informers , which he thinks to be no other than Puritans , and at best , some FVRIOVS ONES of his own Church , or SINGVLAR ILLUMINATES , as he terms them , ib. c. 20. And now what great difference here in this Point between the Two Churches ? The Council of Trent says , that Images of CHRIST , &c. ought to be set up in Churches , and DVE HONOR and VENERATION given them . The Church of England ( by Mr. Montague ) says , that the Images of Christ , the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saints , may be set up in Churches ; RESPECT and HONOR may be given them in Due kind ; The using them for helps of Memory , of Affection , of Rememoration cannot be abstracted from REVERENCE and HONOR simply , in DVE kind . The Catechism ad Parochos says , These Images are set up in Churches , ut Colantur , that they may be Honor'd or Worship'd ; that is , in due kind . The Protestants say ( by Junius ) None of us deny , but they may be Honor'd or Worship'd in their kind : Nay more , We prove , They are to be Worship'd in some manner , that is , as Images . Both Churches then agree , that Sacred Images may be set up in Churches ; that a Respect , Honor and Reverence is due to them , in their kind ; and both concur in terming this Honor or Reverence , Cultus or Worship , i. e. in it's kind , Suo modo . Junius expressing it due , velut Imagines , as they are Images , The Council of Trent , because they Represent Christ , &c. which is upon the very same reason and ground . Besides this , 't is agreed by both Churches , that this Reverence shewn to these things , is founded purely upon the Relation they have to God , and is terminated finally upon him . This as to the Church of Rome , appears from what is already quoted out of the Council of Trent : And as to the Church of England , from the words of Montagu above mention'd . And from Bishop Jewel , who ( in Rep. ag . Hard. ) says ; We Worship the Sacrament , the Word of God , we Worship all other things in such Religious wise to Christ belonging . And then afterwards giving the Reason : The Sacraments be Ador'd ( says ▪ he ) but the whole Honor resteth not in them , but is passed over from them to the things Signified . Which is the very Relative Honor mention'd so often by Catholic Divines . And this Divinity is found likewise in some Modorn Church-Men , as Dr. Stillingfleet , who ( in his Def. ag . T. G. pa. 600. ) says , that Altho' no Irrational or Inanimate Being be capable of that real Excellency , to deserve any Honor from us for it 's own sake ; yet such things may have a Relation to matters of so High a Nature , as to deserve a different Vsage and Regard from other things : And this afterwards he terms a Reverence , and , if I may so call it , a Religious Respect to Sacred Places and Things . In which words , tho' there 's some Mincing it ; yet it delivers in some manner the whole Doctrin of Catholics . The two Churches thus agreeing in the lawfulness of placing Images in Churches , and that an Honor , or Reverence , or even Worship in it's kind , is necessarily due to them , as they serve for helps to Piety ; of Affection or Rememoration , and have Relation to God. The Answerer of these leaves of Nubes Testium , lets fly at all this , like one of Montagu's FVRIOVS ONES , or SINGVLAR ILLVMINATES . He runs it down , under the Name of IMAGE-WORSHIP ; and is sure , with this very Word alone , so far to prevail upon the Ignorant and Vulgar at least ( with whom , by his loose arguing , he seems chiefly concern'd ) as to gain their Votes , in crying down the Papists for Idolaters ; and then his Business is done . Upon this strain he runs to the end of his Pamphlet , proving that Image-Worship is contrary to Fathers , to Antiquity , to Councils ; Image-Worship , Image-Worship , is all the Cant : But never tells , what this Image-Worship is ; and never reflects , that his own Church is for an Image-Worship too . Thus unhappily in the midst of Dust and Noise he manages the Controversie with the Papists , without ever Stating the Question , or declaring what the Papists hold , unbecoming a Scholar ; and multiplying many Needless Contentions , unbecoming a Christian . If he had examin'd the Doctrin of his own Church , and understood what Catholics teach , he would have soon discover'd the vanity of this Engagement ; and found , that after so much bustle upon this matter , there 's but little more in 't , besides Fighting about Names and Words ; and that however tolerable this may be in a School for a Logic Dispute , 't is unworthy of a Divine , who pretends to be a Preacher of the Gospel of Peace . 'T is already here made out to any unprejudic'd Considerer , that , according to the Doctrin of Protestants , especially those of the Church of England , 't is impossible to separate even the Historical Use of Holy Images , from a Respect and Reverence which necessarily follows them : Much less can they serve as Helps to Piety , for the exciting Devotion , and bringing to mind the Persons Represented , but they force from the beholders an Interior Love and Honor ; so that , as 't is impossible , for a Good Subject to have by him the Picture of his Prince and of a Traytor , without being differently affected in his Soul towards them , even in the very same manner , as he is to the Persons they Represent . So neither can a Faithful and Good Christian , behold the Pictures or other Representations of Christ , of Judas , of Mahomet , but his Soul will be differently mov'd towards them with Love , Respect , Honor , Veneration , on the one side ; with Indignation and Contempt on the other , as he finds himself affected to the Persons Represented by them . Thus far is acknowledg'd by Protestants , and may be gather'd from what is above cited out of Montagu and Junius . Catholics say the same , and so cannot be censur'd or condemn'd for this . What then is their Crime ? The Charge urg'd against them is , that they shew this same Honor and Veneration outwardly to these Holy Images of Christ , the Apostles , &c. They kiss them , pull off their Hats , they Bow , they Kneel , Burn Tapers , Incense , and Pray before them : This is the Crime , this the Image-Worship and Idolatry of the Catholics . And here , in their behalf , and to bring this Voluminous Controversie into a Narrower Compass , I must ask of the Answerer ; If it be lawful for Protestants and Catholics to have an INTERIOR Respect , Honor and Reverence for Holy Images , as appears evidently confess'd above ; how comes it to be so Vnlawful and Abominable for Catholics to signifie and express outwardly this same Respect , Honor and Reverence , which is so Commendable for all Christians , both Catholics and Protestants , to have Inwardly in their Souls ? Certainly , That Honor and Reverence , which in the Heart is Christian , cannot but be Christian in the Expression : And 't is very absur'd , to think a Duty can become Idolatry by professing it . If a Christian has a greater Reverence in his Soul , for the Book of the Holy Scriptures , than for any other Book whatsoever , may not he lawfully express this Reverence by Kissing it ? If the Woman in the Gospel , respects and Honors in her Heart the Hem of our Saviours Garment ; is the Kissing that Hem , any more Idolatry , than was that Affection and Reverence she had in her Soul towards it ? If a Christian has a Respect and Reverence even for the House of God , or Church , above other Houses , that are not Dedicated to his Service ; may not he shew this Respect , by Vncovering his Head ? If a Christian Honors the Communion-Table above other Prophane Tables ; may not this Honor be exteriourly profess'd , by setting Candles on it , and Plate , and adorning it with Hangings , and then Bowing to it , without a Crime ? If a Christian Reverences and Honors in his Heart the NAME of Jesus , or of the Cross , as the Church of England says the Apostles did ; can it be Idolatry outwardly to profess this same Honor , by Bowing or Bending the Knee ? And if he Respects the Sacrament , may not he shew this exteriorly , by receiving it Kneeling ? And if these Exterior Professions and Acknowledgments of the Interior Respect , Honor and Reverence that is due to these things , may be thus commendably shewn , by Kissing , Vncovering the Head , by Tapers , Ornaments , Bowing and Kneeling , without any Abomination in the sight of God , or just Scandal to our Neighbor ; why may not the like Interior Respect and Honor , acknowledg'd due to Holy Representations of Christ or his Saints , be profess'd outwardly by the same Visible Expressions of Respect and Reverence : Especially since what is done to all these things , is upon no other account , than the Relation they have to God , and as appertaining to him and his Service ? Neither let the Answerer think to take Sanctuary , in calling this Veneration shewn to Pictures and Images of Christ , a Worship , as an Image-Worship : For however this may work upon the Mobile and Unthinking Crowds , and fill their heads with a Notion of Idolatry ; yet every Man of Sense and unbiass'd Judgment knows , that this word Worship is equivocal , and that 't is not every thing is presently made an Idol of , which is any ways said to be Worship'd : As is shewn at large in The Pap. Misrep . 2. Part. c. 5 , 6. For 't is not only the Honor , which Catholics shew to Holy Images , is call'd a Worship ; but likewise that is a Worship , which Protestants give ; as is own'd by Junius above ; so that in this Sense Protestants may be said and prov'd to be Image-Worshipers too . The Reverence likewise shew'd by Protestants to the Sacrament , is call'd by Jewel ( Rep. to Hard. ) a Worship : The Honor given to the Bible he stiles a Worship . In the same way of speaking , the Respect to the Communion-Table may be term'd a Worship ; Bowing in Reverence to the Name of Jesus may be styl'd a Worship . And in this Sense , 't will not only be laid to the Church of England's charge , that she teaches and approves Image-Worship ; but likewise Bread Worship , Book-Worship , Table-Worship , and Name-Worship : And 't will not be very difficult , by the equivocation of this word , and the help of a little Pulpit-Sophistry , to paint out This Church as Black with Idolatry and Superstition , to the People , as she has done the Church of Rome . And it do's not at all reflect upon the Church of Rome , or her Doctrin , that some of her Divines call this Respect , Honor , Veneration or Worship paid to Holy Images a Religious Respect , or Honor , &c. For this is only a Dispute about a Word ; and let it be call'd by what Name they please , whether Honorary , Religious , or Divine , this alters not the Nature of the thing ; for 't is but the same thing , by whatsoever Name it be express'd . If some will have every Respect or Veneration , shewn to Holy Things , as to the Bible , the Sacrament , the Name of Jesus , for the Relation they have to God , to be call'd a Religious Worship , let 'em call it so in God's Name . And if others will have no Veneration or Worship to be Religious , but that which is directly and immediatly given to God ; let 'em have their way . These are fine Notions , and pretty Entertainments for School-debates ; but are no concern of our Religion or Conscience . For as long as 't is own'd , that there 's a Respect and Reverence due to such Holy things , as in some particular manner have relalation to God and his Service , and we only express this Respect outwardly , which interiorly we feel in our Souls ; let this be call'd an Honor , a Worship , an Adoring ; let it be said to be Honorary , Religious or Divine ; let it be deem'd Absolute or Relative , 't is equally alike to us ; since we are satisfied , the wrangling of the Learned about Names and Words , has no influence upon the Acts of our Souls ; and cannot make that to be Idolatrous , which in it self is not so . Here then may the Reader see , how stands this Controversie between Catholics and the Church of England Protestants . Both Churches acknowledge , that there 's an Honor , and Reverence that may be lawfully given to the Holy Images and Pictures of Christ . Both Churches express this Honor outwardly : Protestants , by using them in their Churches and Prayer-books , which ( as Montagu says ) cannot be abstracted from giving them Honor and Reverence . While Catholics go farther , and say , that 't is lawful to express this Honor and Reverence due to them , as they have relation to God , by Kissing them , pulling off the Hat , Bowing , Setting of Tapers , &c. before them , in the same manner , and with no more just occasion of Scandal , and no more breach of any Commandment , than the Church of England do's express the Veneration She shews to the Bible in Kissing it ; to the Church , by pulling off the Hat ; to the Name of Jesus , by Bowing ; to the Communion-Table , by setting Candles on it . Which being so many Actions intended to signifie the Interior Sentiment and Affection of the Soul ; there can certainly be no more of Idolatry in them , or Superstition , than there is in the Intention , or in the Act of the Soul ; the one being the same outwardly , what the other is inwardly . And , however some Divines and Leading Men of the Church of England , who are in love with wrangling , and thro' the Influence of an Unchristian Temper , seem to be afraid of a better Understanding coming amongst Christians , take pains to blow up this Controversie with some School and Empty Notions ; yet 't is not to be thought , there 's any great difference between the Two Churches , were they to Speak their Sense in a Cool and Moderate Temper , where they might be free from the Suggestions of such Hot and Fiery Spirits , who seem to be rather Men of State and Policy , than of Religion . For , can it be imagin'd , that the Church of England , who confesses , that the Holy Ghost himself , the Apostles , and Primitive Christians instructed by the Apostles , Honor'd the NAME of the Cross , and had an Honorable Esteem for the SIGN of the Cross , can be in good earnest against those , who express outwardly this Honor , which in it self is thus acknowledg'd of Divine Institution , and to have been the Doctrin of the Apostles ? If the Apostles too , as she owns above , did honor the NAME of the Cross by their Mouths and Words ; can she condemn those , who do the like with their Hands , their Heads or Knees ? If it be the Doctrin of the Holy Ghost , to have this Honor for the Name and Sign of the Cross in our Hearts ; and the Apostles , by the instinct of that Holy Spirit , did express this by their Words ; may not We do so too ? And if We may do this in Words , may not we do it in any other way of Expressing our Sense , which Nature has given us , and are answerable to Words ? Words are nothing more than for their Signification ; and if we signifie our thoughts by any other way , as by Signs , by any Motion , or Gesture of our Body ; these Actions being to express the same affection of our Soul , which we other ways do by Words , they are as Innocent as our Words ; and 't is impossible the Actions should be Idolatrous , whilst the Words are Orthodox : Since being taught by the Apostles , to have an Honor in our Hearts for the SIGN of the Cross , 't is the same thing before God and Men , whether we signifie this outwardly by our Tongues , or by our Lips , or by our Hands , or by our Heads , or by our Knees ; these being only so many different kinds of Speaking , to signifie one and the same sense of our hearts . And whilst they are so , there can be nothing justly charg'd upon any one of these ways of Expressing , but will as certainly fall upon all the rest ; for they being all upon the same intention and design , of shewing outwardly the Honor we are taught by the Apostles to have in our hearts , and this Honor thus severally express'd , being but one and the same , founded upon the Relation the Sign of the Cross has to Christ ; if it be a Religious Worship , when 't is signified by the Knee , 't is Religious too when signified by the Tongue , and alike Religious whilst 't is in the Heart ; if it be Idolatrous to express it by the Knee in bending , 't is Idolatrous too , to express it with the Tongue in Words ; and most of all Idolatrous , as it is in the Heart . Upon this Point turns the Greatest part of this Controversie , which of it self is very inconsiderable . But our Answerer takes little care to see how the Question stands ; He 's for exposing the Church of Rome , and as long as he has the knack of doing this by Ridiculing , and Drolling , what should he trouble himself with such impertinencies , as are stating the Question , and speaking to the Point ? He 's satisfied the word Image-worship will do the work , without much need of longer Proofs ; and therefore waving all such kind of Controversial Drudgery , he falls to the Historical part , in which , from the different account of Historians , the disagreement in Time and Place and other Circumstances , he easily fills all with Confusion and Uncertainty . A tedious work he makes about the second Council of Nice , and sets it out in such abusive Language , with so much contempt and scorn , that he seems , at his writing this Character , to have come fresh from a Billings-gate Lecture . Hear how he attacks that Venerable Synod : They were a Pack of Greeks ( says he pa. 38. ) that were neither the wisest , nor the honestest Men in the World. Then having undervalued the Proofs of that Council as Senseless and Ridiculous , he adds , pa. 39. Now you may judge , whether these were not rare Greek Wits . Yet we might forgive their want of Brains , if they had been Men of Integrity ; but they were dishonest too . In this manner do's he complement this great Synod with the Honorable Titles of Fools and Knaves . Certainly he must be a wise Man in his own conceit , who makes so bold with three hundred and fifty Fathers , besides the Popes Legates , and the Vicars of the Oriental Patriarchs . But I leave him in this Buffoonry , wishing him only much joy of his Admirable Talent in this kind . The Chief thing he urges against this Council , is their establishing , as he pretends , Superstitious Errors , the Worship or Adoration of Images , such as our Author judges to be nothing else than Idolatry ; in this , doing altogether like himself , who quarrels with every thing ; but how unlike the more Learned and Moderate Divines of his own Church , who vindicate this Council from all such imputations ! Mr. Thorndike freely confessing , that he must maintain as unquestionable , that the Council of Nice injoyns no Idolatry , Epil . 3. pa. 363. And Dr. Field affirming , that the Nicence Fathers mean nothing else by Adoration of Images , but embracing , kissing , and reverently using of them , and like to the Honor we do the Books of Holy Scripture . ( Of the Church l. 3. c. 36. ) Thus do these Eminent Men deliver their Sense of this Council and it's Doctrin , which our Author has thought fit to render so Ridiculous to the World. He catches at Words , and without Examining or Understanding them , makes Idolatry and Superstition of the most Orthodox and Christian Doctrin : And this I look upon the occasion of his letting flie so furiously at this Venerable Synod , and of all his Rallery against it . But I proceed to consider his other Arguments . The principal thing he insists on , and which runs thro' his whole Pamphlet , is , that we cannot make it appear , even as a thing probable , that Images were so much as set up in Churches in the Primitive Times ; and upon this Practice , now so common in the Church of Rome , he presses her with the Guilt of Innovation . An Excellent Argument , well becoming a Leader of the People ! But this is the Motive of Reforming . And do not some other Reformers , upon the same grounds , prove the use of Organs , in the Divine Service , to be an Innovation ; since it cannot be made appear , even as probable , that there were any such things known to the Primitive Christians of the first three or four hundred years ? And do not others , still treading over the same steps , make the use of Cathedrals and Churches , of Deanries and Prebendaries , an Innovation in Christianity ; since in the Primitive times there were no such things heard ●f ? After this rate some Men are pleas'd to argue ; and at this pace the Reformation may go on improving every day , till there 's nothing of Christianity left , if such Principles and Reasons of some Church of England Reformers are but follow'd , as Just and Convincing . But these can have no authority , but with some Weak and Passionate Men. Others , who weigh things duely , know that the Circumstances of the Primitive Christians , their being under Severe Persecution , their living and conversing in the middle of Pagans and Jews , &c. did make many things inconvenient and unseasonable at that time , especially such as related to the Solemnity and Order of the Church , which otherwise were Good and Apostolical . This Mr. Montagu , a Wise and Learned Man , throughly consider'd ; and particularly in relation to Images , which , he says , in the first Ages were but few or none in publick , not because they were then Unlawful , or contrary to the Doctrin of the Apostles ; but because they were inconvenient in those times of Persecution and Paganism . I 'll here set down his own words to satisfie the Answerer , and to let him see the difference between the Spirit of Peace and Moderation , and that of Bitterness and Wrangling . Thus then that Worthy Divine argues in his Appeal to Caesar , c. 23. As the Ancient Fathers of the Primitive Times had very few or no Churches at all , at least of Note , Dignity or of Receipt , because they liv'd in Times of fierce Persecution , and were seldom , or Few of them Stationary , but compell'd subinde mutare sedes ; so had they very few , I grant , or no Pictures at all in public use amongst them , not so much as for Ornament sake . And the reason was , because they lived continually amongst Pagans , and were themselves , for the most part , such as had abandon'd and come over from Paganism unto Christ ; that were bred in , brought up in , inur'd to , and fast setled unto Idolatry in Image-worship . Therefore they spoke against them with some tartness and inveighing sort , lest haply by conversing with , or neighboring upon Pagans , or thro' former use of being mis-led by those Pagans , the Novel and tender Shoots of Christianity might receive hurt , and learn to worship Idols , as those Pagans did . In which words this Author plainly declares , that tho' there was not the public use of Images in the first Ages ; yet the admittance of them afterwards into Churches was no Innovation , as our Answerer pretends ; but the practising of a thing , which in all the precedent Ages had been just and lawful , but not expedient , for the reasons here assign'd by him . Which thing the same Author has thus clearly deliver'd in the foregoing Chapter , where speaking of the use of Images : Before St. Gregory , says he , I know no such confest employment for them . He was the first that gave such public approbation unto them DECLARATORILY , tho' it was TRVE DOCTRIN IN IT SELF , before he ever profess'd it such . Can any thing be more clearly express'd ? Is it not evidently here acknowledg●d by a Church of England Divine , that the Use of Images , as approv'd and allow'd by Pope Gregory , who was for giving Reverence and Respect unto them , as this Author confesses in the same Chapter , was a True Doctrin in it self ; tho' it was never professedly declar'd before this time ? And yet our Answerer , unacquainted it seems with the Doctrin of his own Church , and with the Circumstances of the Primitive Church , comes here with the full Cry of Innovation , giving the World and me a needless trouble of stating this Controversie , which has been so long ago decided , as to this Point , by a Divine of his own Church . But alas , some Men , who have for a long time from their Castle of Priviledge , with a Noisy , but Empty Controversie , peevishly declaim'd against all sorts of Adversaries ; and there boastingly triumph'd , where they know no body dar'd contradict or question them , vainly think they may do the like in Print , and that they may as easily impose upon all Readers , as upon their Hearers . And I desire our Answerer to consider , how far he is here concern'd , who thus dares to venture abroad , with these Raw and Vnconnected Notions . But the Answerer is resolv'd however , to convince his Reader of the Unlawfulness of Images ; and in order to this tells him , as before , that the Antient Heretics were Friends to Images . I wont ask here ; Why then do's the Church of England use them in her Places of Worship ? But , I 'll tell him in his own Words , that this is a Silly Artifice ; and that every thing is not to be condemn'd , which was us'd by such a sort of People . He knows , I hope , that the Antient Heretics us'd the Bible too , as likewise Preaching and Churches , and yet sure all these are not to be rejected upon this score . I have here shew'd him already out of his own Authors , who first declaratorily establish'd the use of Holy Images , giving Reverence and Respect unto them ; and that this was a True Doctrin in it self , before he ever profess'd it : And what matter then , if some Heretics admitted of the same , who are wont to abuse even the best of things , as the Answerer says , the Gnostics did , pa. 57. who rankt Christ's Image with those of Pythagoras , Plato and Aristotle . As to what he says before , pag. 53. that Pope Gregory I. and II. contradict each other in this Point , he would do well to explicate this fuller in his next ; for Pope Gregory II. is no more for Adoration of Images , than Gregory I. as appears in that Letter of his to Leo Isaurus cited in Nubes Testium , pa. 183. Where writing to the Emperor : You charge us , says he , with the Adoration of Stones , and Walls , and Pictures . But 't is not so as you affirm , O Emperor ! What we do is only to refresh our Memory , to raise our minds to Heaven , — and not , as you urge , to Worship them as Gods ; no , God forbid , we place no hope in them . How then do's he contradict Gregory I. while he 's no more for Worshiping Images than he was ? But he that has Forehead enough to charge me with a Notion of Invocating of Images , as he do's , pa. 66. when I have no such Word or Hint , must not be call'd to an account for every thing he says . I have little more to consider in this Letter of the Answerer , besides his great Kindness and Affection to the Heathens , who , with his Good Friend Dr. Stillingfleet , is so favorable to them , as in a manner to excuse them from Idolatry , so the better to fix this Crime upon the Papists : Tho' the Doctrin of the Papists , in this Point , is so like what the Church of England teaches , that ( as is shewn above ) there 's little difference betwixt them , besides about School Terms and Words . The World knows the good understanding there was between Sultan Solyman and Martin Luther , and how friendly the Followers of this New Prophet were taught to be to the Turks ; but why our English Reformers upon Martin Luther should be at this day so kind to the Heathens , must be left to every one to guess . The Answerer assures the Person of Quality , pa. 11. to whom he writes , that to charge the Heathens with Worshiping Stocks and Stones as Gods , is to Misrepresent them . And yet how many times has this very thing been instill'd into the Peoples Heads , as True of the Papists , which now , as we are inform'd , is a Misrepresentation , when affirm'd of the Pagans ? Are not the Pagans here deeply indebted to these Church of England Men , in their owning them to be Misrepresented , whilst the same Abomination is so liberally charg'd upon the Papists , and yet no Misrepresentation there , if you 'l believe ' em ? This is to make the Papists worse than Heathens ; and without either Respect to Duty or Good manners , to advance even now that Plot-Divinity , which was Preach'd by a Doctor before the House of Commons , April 11. 1679. Who setting out Popery in such colors , as might be most effectual to excite that Assembly to the Drawing of Blood , after several Dreadful Characters , at last pa. 30. thus concludes ; Nay , says he , it is a Religion , that will engage you in a more Unnatural Idolatry , than ever the Pagans were guilty of . Is not this a rare Character of one Christian from another ? Nay from Church of England Christians too , such who pretend to so much Charity and Moderation above their Neighbors ; and yet to cast forth so much Gall and Venom , that could be expected from none , but another Julian , or a Lucian ? But I take no advantage here , I consider this was deliver'd in a time of an Epidemical Madness ; and what wonder , if the Pulpits did not escape the Contagion ? But why at this time of the day should this Lecture be read to the People ? Is not the Plot out of some People's heads yet ? Is the Infection so lasting ? But what shall we say ; the Enclosure of some Men's Religion , is only to be against Popery . They raise a monstrous Notion in their own Brains ; and while they expose this to the People , they make the Innocent suffer for their Delusion . They 'l joyn hands with the Turk or the Pagan , so they can but make a Devil of the Papist . And in this some of their Furioso's are so blindly rash , that they care not how Antichristian they make their own Church , so they can but set out the Papists for Idolaters . For here I desire any serious Man to consider , if the Papists were thus really Idolaters , as bad or worse than the Heathens , as these Men suggest , what Advantage would this be to the Church of England ? What kind of Church must the Church of England be , who has no Ordination , Succession , or Authority of Preaching , but what she has receiv'd from these Idolaters ? What kind of Church must she be , whilst she owns her self and These Idolaters to be Parts of the same Church ? What kind of Church must she be , whilst she acknowledges , that all her Members for a Thousand Years before Henry 8. were in Communion with these Idolaters ; and in all External Rites and Worship , were comprehended in the Papacy ? Must not she have been a very Dissembling and Adulterous Church ; whilst believing internally the True and Pure Faith of Christ , she did for so many years externally practise all the supposed Superstitions and Idolatries of the Church of Rome , which she judg'd to be most Wicked and Damnable ? Is not this an admirable Character of a Pretended Church of Christ , to have play'd the Hypocrit for so many Ages , committing Adultery with the Supposed Whore of Babylon , and partaking in all her pretended Abominations ? What greater Blow could an Enemy give to the Church of England , than some of her Divines do thus with their own hands , who , like Spiritual Janizaries , destroy their own Mother Church of which they are Members ? For is it not evident , that whilst they endeavor to make the Church of Rome guilty of Idolatry , they prove their own Church for so many years to have been Idolatrous , to have been a Dissembling Church , a Church denying Christ and his Religion , a Church for Temporal Respects committing many Idolatries and Superstitions , and consequently , no Church at all ? And what more Forcible Argument need any Dissenters to justifie their Separation from the Church of England ? For since the greatest part of those things upon which the Dissent is founded , are such as have been instituted and commanded by the Church of Rome , why shou'd they receive them from the Church of England , whilst these same Church-Guides , who press the Observance , take so much pains to prove those from whom they receiv'd them , to be Idolaters , and a sort of Christians worse than Heathens ? What reason has any Man to joyn in such a Form of Worship and Divine Service , when he is assur'd , that Those from whom the greatest Part is borrow'd , are Idolaters ? Why should any be tied to such Ceremonies , if those that instituted them were Idolaters ? 'T is but Rational for every Man to think , that if the Papists are so Stupid , so Sottish , so Ridiculous , such Idolaters , so worse than Heathens , as every little Church-Divine is pleas'd to render them , that the Church of England , who retains so much of their Service and Ceremonies , must of necessity be so far like them in Sottishness , Ridiculosity , Idolatry and Heathenism ; and the only way to become a Pure Christian , must be to shake off , even that which She has retain'd . This is a very Obvious reasoning ; and I don't question , has so powerfully wrought upon the minds of Infinite Numbers , and widen'd the Separation to that degree , that the very Crime of the Church of England in her Bitter and Vnjust Invectives against the Papists , has by a just hand of God prov'd her Punishment ; whilst her endeavors to alienate the Peoples minds from Popery , has embitter'd them even against her self , and been so fatal to her , that by the same means she has made People no Papists , she has made them Dissenters from her own Communion , and rais'd to her self almost as many Enemies , as she inteded against the Church of Rome . Our Answerer , has lent a helping hand in this Point ; I do not mean here by his Peevish , Scandalous Pulpit Invectives ; but in this his pretended Answer to this Part of Nubes Testium ; whilst he has scarce any one Argument , but what is levell'd as much against his own Church ( if that be really his , which he pretends ) as against the Papists : Tho' in reality , to any Intelligent Reader , there is but very little against either : The whole being made up of Vulgar Sophisms , Wordy Disputes , and Arguing at Rovers : But the Author is to be excus'd ; the Whole is nothing more than a Letter : And every body knows , that a Letter , however proper it may be to the Person , to whom 't is directed , is many times very Absurd , when 't is divulg'd and made Common ; wee 'l excuse therefore the Writer , but really he is to blame that Publish'd it . FINIS . 
A56021	----	A proposal of union amongst Protestants, from the last-will of the most Reverend Doctor Sands sometime Archbishop of York (as the sentiment of the first reformers) humbly presented to the Parliament. Sandys, Edwin, 1516?-1588. 1679 Approx. 16 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A56021 Wing P3709A ESTC R182167 12121261 ocm 12121261 54432 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A56021) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 54432) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 875:32) A proposal of union amongst Protestants, from the last-will of the most Reverend Doctor Sands sometime Archbishop of York (as the sentiment of the first reformers) humbly presented to the Parliament. Sandys, Edwin, 1516?-1588. 4 p. s.n., [London : 1679] Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Caption title. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Great Britain -- Political aspects. -- Great Britain. Church and state -- Great Britain. 2004-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-04 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-04 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A PROPOSAL OF UNION AMONGST PROTESTANTS , FROM THE LAST-WILL Of the Most Reverend Doctor SANDS Sometime Archbishop of YORK ; ( As the Sentiment of the first Reformers ) Humbly presented to the PARLIAMENT . Right Honourable , FOR the divisions of Reuben there once were great thoughts and searchings of heart ; and well may there be the like at this day for those among us in England , by which , not the seamless Coat of Christ , but his precious mystical Body is miserably rent and torn in pieces . At this many are exceeding angry ( if from a right principle it is well ) , and complaints do every where abound ; But what , ah ! what is done in order to a Cure ? Some indeed have offer'd at it , but greatly mistaken their way , inflaming the wounds , instead of healing them . Peace with God , and Conscience , and among the Brethren , is that Legacy , which our dearest Lord left unto his Disciples . Cordial and mutual love springing up in all expressions of kindness , is that amiable Badg by which he would have them known in the World. In a word , Vnion and Communion among Christians , is both the beauty and strength of the Church ; That renders her lovely as a City compacted together , and terrible as an Army with Banners . Hence it is , that our Saviour did so earnestly pray his Father , that his people might be one , and made perfect in one ; and Paul did with utmost importunity press the Philippians to have the same love , to be like minded , and of one accord . And oh ! that all , upon whom the name of Christ is called , would carefully attend to this Advice , and follow it , keeping The unity of the spirit in the bond of peace : For by this means our Church would become a Paradise , and Earth a kind of Heaven . To endeavour , and ( by the happy concurrence of a Divine Blessing ) to effect so great and good a work as unity in the Church , and concord among Christians , is most worthy of so August an Assembly as an English Parliament ; yea , of such a Parliament as you are , whom we have many and many a year longed for , and do now with our souls rejoyce to see . What doth more nearly concern you , or what possibly can more highly exalt you in the love ▪ and esteem of all truly religious and sober persons both in the present and future Generations , than your being instruments in the Divine hand for the undoing of heavy burdens , breaking every oppressing yoke , and taking stumbling blocks out of the way , that all the Sons and Daughters of Sion may worship God in the Beauties of holiness , with one shoulder , and with one consent . And is not this a time for it ? Is not this the time ? When can you find a fitter ? When can healing-endeavours be more in season ? Violence of storms should drive the Sheep together . Desperate Plots , practices and attempts of busie and irreconcilable enemies , should more closely and firmly unite jarring friends . Hannibal is at the Gate . The Pope and his Emissaries , the Iesuits with their Vassals , seek our ruine . They have been long travailing with mischief , and brought to the birth , and were at the very point of bringing forth , had not our Gracious God wonderfully interposed both for discovery and prevention . Oh! Let not Protestants devour one another , when their Popish Adversaries would devour all ; who are not yet satisfied , but as much as ever thirst for blood . Besides , not only the rage of men , but the Rod of God should teach us peace and quietness . It becomes us to give over our unchristian contendings with one another , seeing God hath with great severity in various ways contended with us all . Sundry years we have been in the furnace of affliction , and should be so througly melted , as easily to run into one : I mean all those in England who fear God , and desire to see the King of Saints in his beauty . I know there is an implacable enmity put by God himself between the seed of the woman , and the seed of the serpent ; and as Luther saith , Cain will murder Abel to the end of the world . But if any , professing Religion , should be of implacable spirits , resolved to carry their heats and animosities down with them to the Grave , their speedy march off would be a mercy to the Church and Nation , unless God please to mollifie their hearts into a brotherly compliance upon good terms . And blessed be his Name , there is a cementing , healing spirit to be found among many , very many in the Nation , who long for peace , and pray for peace , and are most willing to deny themselves , and do any thing for peace , only they dare not forsake holiness , neglect their Duty , nor wound their Consciences by offending God : And I doubt not , but many of their Brethren would go far to meet them , and welcom that day in which all middle-walls of partition shall be broken down . How sweet , how exceeding sweet is that passage lately dropt from the Lip and Pen of that very Learned and Reverend Divine , Dr. Tillotson , Being Brethren upon so many accounts , and by so many bonds and endearments all united to one another , and all travelling toward the same countrey , why do we fall out by the way ? Since we are Brethren , why do we not , as becomes Brethren , dwell together in unity ? His Most Excellent Majesty ( under whose refrigerating shadow we have enjoyed so much tranquillity ) hath made frequent motions for the composing of differences among us ; but unto this day , too too few in place and power have written after so fair a Copy , or trodden in the steps of His Royal clemency . He hath now again in His late most gracious Speech to your Honours , propounded Vnion as the end he ai●● at , and which , he wisheth , would be extended to Protestants abroad as well as at home . A Saying most highly becoming so Great a Prince , a Defender of the Faith , and unquestionably , Chief of the Protestant Party . God grant he may live long , and act vigorously toward the effecting of so glorious a design , that not only we , but the Children yet unborn may rise up and call him blessed . Most Noble Sirs , give us leave with some confidence to hope , that you are like-minded , and herein will joyn issue with His Sacred Majesty . Among those other weighty and arduous affairs which will be before you , be pleased , as our great Physicians , to reach out to us an healing hand . A Divine told us of late . That the Church of England is ready with open arms to embrace those that do dissent ; and it may be rationally concluded , that Dissenters are full out as ready to be embraced ; doubtless those that have been so long underfoot , and in the dust , having very hard measure meted out to them , would gladly be taken up now into the arms ; surely such unwonted kindness would fill their mouths with thankfulness , and put them into an extacy of joy provided there be nothing in the terms to choak them . It is no kindness to hug the man , and wound his conscience . May it please you , Right Honourable , with a tender hand , by a safe and right way , to bring them into the bosom of their Mother . It is not for me , the meanest of ten thousand , to act the Dictator ; no , no , I will turn Orator , and humbly pray , That you may be all taught of God , and endued with a Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding , to find out proper and effectual means and methods , for the bringing about this ever-to be desired harmony and accord among Protestants . Only this I crave leave with all humility and earnestness to beg , That what God hath not set up in the Church , may be pull'd down ; and those things taken out of the way , which have been , and always will be bones of contention among persons truly learned and godly . May that be rejected as an Innovation , which is not as old as the Apostles ; and nothing imposed upon Ministers or People , but what hath footing and warrant in the holy Scriptures : Oh that all Dissenters would come up to the Church of England , as far as ever they can with a good conscience ; and oh that they also may be so far condescended to . And certainly it can neither be prejudicial to the Church to yield in those things which ( Dissenters account sinful , and ) she her self calls indifferent ; and upon that score are at best but chips in Porridg , not worth contending for . Nor can it be any unhandsome or dishonourable reflexion upon our first Renowned Reformers , whose Memory is deservedly dear to us ; for they did famously in this our Israel , casting out abundance of filth and rubbish , laying a good foundation , and making an admirable progress in the structure ; yet such was the iniquity of the Times , the rage of their Enemies , and the opposition they met with , that they did not , nay they could not finish the work , nor add the top-stone to the Reformation , but left something for their Successors to do , which are You : the good Lord give you an heart to do it . Rome was not built , nor could it be pull'd down in a day , or in an Age. Since therefore His most Sacred Majesty , ( being thorowly sensible of the great advantage our common Enemy , the Papist , hath received by the breaches that have not only been made , but hitherto continued among such as profess the same faith ) , hath been graciously pleased to recommend to your special care the concern of the Protestant interest , as well at home as abroad , and hath commanded the Honourable the Lord Chancellor of England to acquaint you , that he judgeth it a thing necessary for you in your great Wisdom , to find out some way for the relief of such Protestants as do wander only from the Church of England , thorow the tenderness of their consciences , being such as would not destroy it , but do build upon the same foundation with your selves ; I take upon me the humble boldness to offer to your Honours serious Consideration , the Sentiments , and very words of one of the very first Reformers of our Church of England ▪ as it remains upon Record , being extracted out of the Last Will and Testament of the most Reverend Father in God , Edward Sands , late Arch-Bishop of York , being the general sense of the said Reformers , of which you may be more fully satisfied from the words themselves . COncerning Rights and Ceremonies , by Political Constitutions authorized among us ; As I am , and have been perswaded , that such as are set down by publick Authority in this Church of England , are no way either ungodly or unlawful , but may with good conscience for order and obedience-sake be used of a good Christian ( for the private Baptism to be ministred by Women , I take neither to be prescribed nor permitted ) ; so have I ever been , and presently am perswaded , that some of them be not so expedient for this Church now , but that in the Church reformed , and in all this time of the Gospel , wherein the seed of the Scripture hath so long been sown , they may better be difused by little and little , than more and more urged . Howbeit , as I do easily acknowledg our Ecclesiastical Policy in some points may be better'd , so do I utterly mislike , even in my conscience , all such rude and undigested platforms as have been more lately and boldly , than either learnedly or wisely preferred , tending not to the Reformation , but to the destruction of the Church of England . The particularities of both sorts referred to the discretion of the godly-wise ; of the latter I only say thus ; That the State of a small private Church , and the form of a large Christian Kingdom , neither would long like , nor can at all brook one and the same Ecclesiastical Government . Thus much I thought good to testifie concerning these Ecclesiastical matters , to clear me of all suspicion of double and indirect dealing in the house of God ; wherein , as touching mine Office , I have not halted , but walked sincerely according to that skill and ability which I received at Gods merciful hand , &c. L. Probatum apud London , &c. Vicesimo Secundo die Mensis Maii Anno Domini Milissimo Quingessimo Nonagissimo Juramento Iohannis Theaker Notarii Publici Procuratoris Ciciliae Relictae & Executoris , &c. Cui , &c. de bene , &c. Jurat . Drury , fol. 30. Marcus Cottle Regist. I Shall not trouble you with any Observations of mine upon this discourse of that Reverend Person , but submit it to your Honours Judgment , and take further boldness to subjoyn a remarkable passage of the truly Worthy and Reverend Dean Tillotson . viz. It is not for private persons to undertake in matters of publick concernment ; but I think we have no cause to doubt , but the Governours of our Church ( notwithstanding all the advantages of Authority , ( and we think of Reason too on our side ) are persons of that Piety and Prudence , that for peace-sake , and in order to a firm Vnion among Protestants , they would be content , if that would do it , not to insist upon little things , but to yield them up , whether to the infirmity , or importunity , or perhaps in some very few things , to the plausible exceptions of those who differ from us . Oh that it may be according to his word ; and so I shall most cheerfully yield to him , that , On the other side , men ought to bring along with them a peaceable disposition , and a mind ready to comply with the Church in which they were born and baptized , in all reasonable and lawful things , and desirous upon any terms that are tolerable to return to the communion of it ; a mind free from passion and prejudice , from peevish exceptions , and groundless and endless scruples : And such I perswade my self all sober and Pious Dissenters will be found . And now , Right Honourable , I humbly crave your gracious entertainment of these few lines , sent indeed from a mean and unknown hand , but from an heart full-fraught with Loyalty to His Majesty , and dutiful respects to your Honours , and Zeal for the Purity , Peace and Prosperity of the Reformed Church , and particularly that part of it , which Gods right hand hath planted in this famous Island . I shall not sin in ceasing to pray , That the good hand of God may be upon you , that he would spirit , direct , assist and succeed you , that you may be the repairers of our breaches , and the restorers of paths to dwell in . The Father of mercies , and God of peace grant , that there may be no longer among us the noise of Axes and Hammers ; no more crumbling into parties and factions , no more divisions nor causes of them ; but that our English Ierusalem may be as a Bride made ready for her Husband . That upon all our Assemblies there may be a glory , and upon that glory a defence . FINIS . 
A56099	----	The Protestants' doom in popish times 1689 Approx. 20 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A56099 Wing P3849 ESTC R22811 12364887 ocm 12364887 60387 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A56099) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 60387) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 875:40) The Protestants' doom in popish times Bull, George, 1634-1710. 4 p. s.n., [London? : 1689] Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Caption title. Ascribed to the Right Reverend Dr. Bull. cf. William Oldys, editor of the Harleian miscellany. p. 28. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism. Great Britain -- History -- 1660-1714. 2003-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-02 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-02 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE PROTESTANT'S Doom in POPISH Times . A Prince putting himself , and his Dominions under the Authority of the POPE , and admitting ( as he must unavoidably ) the Laws and Decrees of the Romish Church , all his Protestant Subjects being , by the Judgment and Sentence of that Church , HERETICKS , (a) do forthwith lie under the Penalty which those Laws and Constitutions will have infl●cted upon Hereticks ; Heresie (b) being the highest degree of High-Treas●n ; called therefore by them , Laese Crimen Maj●statis Divinae : So the English Protestant must be a Trayt●r , and the worst of Traytors , and exposed to the Penalties of High Treason . The LAWS and Decrees of the Romish Church against HERETICKS . He●esie (c) is denounced INFAMOUS , and the Heretick must be dealt with as such ; which is many Penalties in one . First ▪ Whereby they are deprived of all Nobility , Ju●isdiction and Dignity , and debarred from all Offices , and Publick Councils , Parliaments as others ; Being made uncapable of choosing , and being chosen : So that it reacheth all sorts (d) of Clergy , Layety , Noble and Igno●le : Which is extended to their Children a●so . For , they say , The Issue of Traytors , Civil and Spiritual ▪ lose their Nobility . And all that owe a●y Duty to such Infamous Persons , are discharged and exempted there from ; as Subjects (e) from their PRINCE , Servants (f) from their MASTERS , Children (g) from their PARENTS ; whom they also may lawfully Kill . Whereby we may see a little , to what Condition the Admission of the PAPAL Authority wo●ld reduce us , expelling both Nature and Humanity , and making the dearest Relatives unnatural and barbaro●s to one another : It would leave no Protestant either Dignity or Authority ▪ either ●ety or Liberty ; Nobles are sentenced to Peasants , and Peasants to Slaves . Secondly , Another Penalty , to which Hereticks are condemned by their Laws , is CONFISCATION of Goods and Estate ; and this they incurr I●s● jure , & ipso facto ; that is , immediately as soon as they shew themselves Hereticks , before any legal Sentence have passed : For which there is an express Decree in the Canon-Law ; (h) Bona Haeretico●um ipso jure d●scernemus Confis●ata ; We decree the Goods of Hereticks to be Confi●cate by Sentence of Law. The Effects of this Confiscation , wherein they all agree , makes the Severity of the LAW apparent , ●iz . First , All the Profits made of the Estate from the first Day of their Guilt , is to be (i) refunded . Secondly , All Alienations (k) by Gif● , Sale , or otherwise , before Sentence , are null and void ; and all Contracts for that purpose , (l) rescinded . Thirdly , Children , Heirs of Hereticks , are deprived of their Portions ; yea , though they be Papists . Whereby it appears , that as soon as the PAPACY is admitted , all Title and Property is lost and extinct among us : And therefore we must not think that Pope acted extravagantly , who declared , That all his Maj●sty's Territories were his own , as forfeited to the H●ly See for the Heresie of Prince and People . Not only Abby-lands lands are in danger , who ever possess them ; but all Estates are forfeited to his Exchequer , and legally Confiscated : All is his own , which PROTESTANTS , in these Three Nations , have or ever had , if he can but meet with a Prince so wise , as to help him to catch it ; whose process follows them beyond their grave , and ruins their Children , and Children's Children after them . And when they have stript the Heretick of his All , they provide that no other ▪ shall relieve him ; viz. That none shall receive him into their Ho●ses , nor afford him any Help , nor shew him any Favour , nor give him any Counsel . We are here in England zealous for Property ; an● all the reason in the World we should so be : But we must bid Adieu to this , when we once come under the Popes Authority ; for as soon as this is admitted . All the Protestants in these Nations are B●ggers by Law ▪ viz. By the Laws of That Church ; which will then be Ours , divesting us of all Property and Ti●●e to what ever ▪ we count our own . Thirdly , Another P●n●lty which their Law inflicts on H●●eticks , is Death , (m) which is the Sentence of the Canon-Law ; and which i● so Absolute , that no Secular Judge can remit ▪ and which is th● Judgm●●● of all the Doctors . Ita docent omnes D●ctores : And from which Penaltie , neither Emperors no● Kings themselves are to be freed or exempt . And the Death they i●fl●ct is Burning Alive : N● Death m●re tolerable . ●r of less e●q●●si●e Torture , will sati●fie the Mercy of that Church . The Canon saith thus ; Decernimus ut vivi in conspectu hominum combu●antur ; We decree , That they shall be Burnt Alive , in the Sight of the World. So our last Popish Successor , Queen Ma●y , pract●sed upon near three hundred Persons , without regard either to Age , Sex , or Qual●ty : The Scripture they urge for it , is Job . 15 6. (n) If any one abide not in me , Men gather them , and cast them into the Fire , and they are Burnt . So that as soon as the PAPAL Authority is admitted among us , all the Protestants in th●se Nations are dead Men in Law ; being under a LAW , that hath Sentence● us to be Burnt Alive ; and under a Power that hath Declared it necessary , that no one of u● escape with Life . Fourthly , Where legal Penalties cannot take place , b● reason of opposite Strength , they hold War necessary , and lawful to chastise Hereticks . For which we might give you divers Authorities ; (o) but let Cardinal Allen , our Country man su●●●e ; who asserts it is not only lawful , but necessary : His Words are these : It is clear ( saith he ) what People 〈◊〉 Persons soever be declared to be opposite to GOD's Church , with what Obligation so●ver ▪ either of Kindred , Friendship , Loyalty , or Subj●ction , I be bound unto them ; I may , or rather must ▪ take up Arms against them : And then must we tak● them f●r Hereticks , when our lawful Popes ad●udge them so to be . And which ( saith Car●inal Pool ) is War more Holy than that against ●he Turks . Fifthly , To destroy them by Massacre● , is sometim● hel● more adviceable ▪ than to run the hazard of War ; and which ( they s●● ) is both lawful and ●eritorious , for the rooting our a Pestilent Heresi● ●n● the promoting the Roman inte●est . This ●●ta ●oo● the ●●ish Massacre , that inhumane bloody Butchery ▪ not so m●ch from the Savageness and Cruelty of ●hei● N●tures , as the Doctrines and principles which dire●●ed ▪ and encouraged ●t : As also th●t of Paris ; than which nothing w●s more grateful and acceptable to their P●●es , as their (p) Bulls make ma●ifest , and the picturing● it in the Popes Chamber : and for which , 〈◊〉 a most Glorious Action , Triumphs were made , and publick Tha●k●givings were returned to GOD. So in Savoy , and elsewhere , both in former and later Times . And this was that which the late Conspirators aimed at so fully , intending a Massacre Those that escaped a Massac●e , ●uch (q) Dugdale must be cut off by the Army . And (r) Coleman tells the Int●rnuncio in his Letter ; That their Design prospered so well , that he doubted not in a little ●ime , their Business would be managed to the utter Ruin of the P●otestant P●rty : The effecting whereof was so desirable and meritorious , what if he had a Sea of Blood , and an hundred Lives , he would lose them all to carry on the Design . And if to eff●ct This. i● were necessary to destr●y an hund●ed Heretical Kings , he would do it . (s) Singl●ton the Priest affirmed , Tha● he would make no more to stab forty Parliament-men , than to eat his Dinner Gerard and Kelley , to encourage Prance to kill Sir E. B. G. told him , it was no Murder , no Sin , and that to kill twenty of them was nothing in that Case ; which was both a charitable and meritorious Act. And (t) Grant , one of the Massa●ri●g Gun-powder Tray●o●s said , up●n his Execu●ion● to one that urged him to Repent of that wicked Enterprize ; That ●e was so far from counting i● a Sin , that on the ●ontrary , he was confident That tha● Noble Design had so muc● of Merit in i● , as would be abundantly enough to make Satisfaction for all the Sins of his whole life . Sir Everard D●gby speaking to the sure purpose also . The provincial , Garnet ▪ did teach the Conspirato●s the same Catholick Doctrine ; viz That the King , Nobility , Clergy , and whole Communalty of the Realm of England ( P●p●sts exc●pted ) were Hereticks ; and , That all Hereticks were Accu●sed and Ex●ommunicated : and ▪ That no Heretick could be a King : but that it was lawful and m●ri●orious to K●ll him ▪ and all other Hereticks within thi Realm of England , for the Advancement and ●nlargement of the Au●h●rity an● Jurisdiction of the Pope ▪ and for t●● Restoring of the Romish Relig●on . T●is was that Garnet whom the P●pists here honoured as a Pope , and kissed his Feet , and reverenced his Iudgment as an Oracle ; and since his death given him the Honor of Saintship and Martyrdom (u) Dugdale des●sed , That after they had dispattched the King , a Massacre was to follow . But surely , it m●y be supposed , that the Temper of such a Prince , or his Interest , would oblige him to forbid or restrain such violent Executions in England : I , but what if his Temper be to comply with such Courses ? Or if his Temper be better ? W●at if it be Over ru●d ? What if he be perswade● as ot●er Catholicks are , that ●e must in Conscience proceed thus ? What if he cannot do otherwise , without hazard of his Crown and Life ? For he is not to hold the Reins of Government alone , he will not be allowed to be much more than the Po●es POS●●LION ; and must look to be ●nmounted , if he Act nor according to Order . The Law (x) tells us , That it is ●o● in th● power of any Civil Magistrate , ●●r 〈◊〉 Penalty , or abate the Rigour of the Law. Nay , if the Prince should plight has Faith by O●th , that he would not suffer their Bloody LAWS to be executed upon his Dissenting Sbjects , this would signifie not●ing : For they would soon tell him , That (y) Contracts made against the Canon-Law are invalid , though confirmed by Oath ; And , That he is not bound to stand to his promi●e , tho' he had Sworn to it : And , That Faith is no mo●e to be kept with Hereticks , than the Council of Constance would have it . So th●● P●otestants are to be Burnt , as Jo. Huss , and Jerom ●f Prague were by that Council , though the Emperor had given them his safe Conduct in that Solemn manner , which could secure them only ( as they said ) from the Civil , but not Church-process , which was the greatest . For 't is their General Rule , That Faith is either not to be given or not kept with H●reticks . Therefore saith Simanca , That Faith ingaged to Hereticks , tho confirmed by Oath , is in no wise to be performed : For saith he , If Faith is not to be kept with Tyrants and Pyrates , and others who kill the Body , much less with Hereticks who kill the Souls ; And that the O●th in savour of them , is but Vniculum Iniquita●is . A Bond of Iniquity . T●ough P●pish Princes the better to promote their interests , and to insnare their Protestant Subjects , to get advantage upon them , to their Ruin , have made large promises , and plight●d their Faiths to them , when they did not intend to keep it . As th● Emperor to John Huss and Jerom ; Charles the Ninth of France to his Protestant Subjects before the Massacre ; the Duke of Savoy to his Protestant Subjects , before their designed Ruin ; and Qu. Mary , before her burning of them . But if there were neither Law nor Conscience to hinder , yet in point of Interest he must not shew f●●our to Hereticks , without app●rent hazard , both (z) of Crown and Life , for he forfeits both if he doth . The Pope every Year doth not only Curse Hereticks , but every favourer of them , from which none but himself can ab●olve . (a) Becanus very elegantly tells us , If a Prince be a dull Cur , and fly not upon Hereticks , he is to be beaten out , and a kee●er D●g must be got in his stead . Henry the Third , and Henry the 4th , were both Assassinated upon this account , and because they were suspected to favour Hereticks . And are we not told by the Discoverers (b) of the Popish Plot , That after they had dispatch'd the King , they would depose his Brother also , that was to succeed him , if he did not answer their Expectations , for rooting out the Protestant Religion . But may not Parliaments secure us by Laws and provisions restraining the power which endan●er vs ? Not possible , if once they secure and settle the Throne for Popery : For , First , They can avoid Parliaments as long as they please , and a Government that is more Arbitrary and V●olent , is more agreeable to their designs and principles : It being apparent , that the English Papist have lost the Spirit of their Ancestors , who so well asserted the English Liberties , being so generally now six'd for the Popes Universal Monarchy , Sacrificing all to that Roman moloch ; being much more his Subje●ts than the Kings : and though Natives by Birth , yet are Foreigners as to Government , Principle , Interest , Affection and Design ; and therefore no Friends to Parliaments , as our Experience hath tol● us . But Secondly , If their Necessity should require a Parliament , ther● is no question but they may get such a one as will serve their turns . For so have every of our f●rmer Princes in all the changes of Religion , that have been amongst us : As Henry the VIII . when he was both for and against Popery , Edward the VI. when he was wholly Protestant , Qu. Mary , when she was for Burning Alive , and Qu. Elizabeth when she ran so counter to her Sister . And the reason is clear that he who has the making of the publick officers and the Keys of preferment and profit , influenceth and swayeth Elections and Votes as he pleaseth . And by how much the Throne comes to be fix'd in Popery , the Protestants must expect to be excluded from both Houses , as they have excluded the Papists : For as Hereticks and Traytors , they , as Ignominous Persons , &c. you have heard , forfeit all Right either to choose , or be chosen in any publick Council : And then all Laws , which have been made for the Protestants , and against the Popish Religion , will be null and void , as being enacted by an Incompetent Authority , as being the acts of Hereticks , Kings , Lords and Commons , who had forfeited all their rights and privileges . But Thirdly , Suppose our Laws were valid , as enacted by competent Authority , and such good and wholsom provisions , as were those Statutes made by our Popish Ancesto●s , in those Statutes of proviso●s in Enward the I. and Edward the III Time ; and that of p●aemunire in Richard the II. and Henry the IV. for Relief against Papal In roachments & Oppressions : Yet being against the Laws & Canons of Holy Church ; the Sovereign Authority , they will be all superseded : For so they determine , That when the Canon and the civil Laws cl●sh , one requiring what the other allows not , the Church-law must have the observance an● that of the State neglected : And Constitution● ( they say ) made against the Canon● & Decrees of the Roman B●shops are of no moment : Their best Authors are possitive in ●t . And o●r own Experience & Histories ●estifie the truth thereof : For how were those good Laws before-mention'd , defeated by the Popes authority , so that there was no effectual Execution thereof till Henry the VIII . time , as Dr. Burnet (c) tells us ? And how have the good Laws , to suppress and prevent Popery , been very mach obstructed in their Exe●ution , by POPISH I●fluence ? THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A56099-e10 Protestants are Her●ticks . (a) Distinct. 19. Cap. a Caus. 25 q. 1. Cap. 11. (b) Cap. Vegent . de Hereticis . (c) Cap. Infam . 6. q. 1. p 297. 1. Forfeit Dignity and Office (d) Suar. de Fide. disp . 12. §. 9. n. 5. l. 2. c. 29. (e) Cap. de Haer. (f) Aazov . Tom. 1. l. 8. c. 12. q 7. (g) Cap. 2. Sect. fin . de Haer. in 6. 2. Goods and Estate . (h) Cap. cum secundum Legis de Haer. Inno. III. Cap. de Vergentis . (i) V●sq in Suar. disp . 22. S. 4 ● . ●● . (k) S. 1 〈◊〉 . (l) Cap. Vergent . de Haer. 3. Lives . (m) Cap ad abolendum de Haer. Suar. Dis. 23. Bul. Urb. 4 ▪ & Inno. 4. By B●rning . (n) Jac de ●ra decis . l. 2. c. 9. n 2. 4. D●stroy'd by War. (o) Bonacina Diana . Castro M●●anus ▪ &c. Car. Allen. ad mon. to Nobl. & Peop. p. 41. 5. By M●ssacre . (p) Briefs of P G. 13. & Cl●m . 8. (q) 5 J●● . Tryal ▪ p. 28. (r) Col. Lr. to the Internuncio . (s) Prance 's Nar. p. 4. (t) Caus● Ep. p. 189 (u) ● Jes. Tryal p. 25. 1. The Popish Prince cannot , help , if he would . Oaths and Promises insignificant . (x) Ca●● Offic●● . (y) Bonncina de prim . prac . Disp. 3. q ▪ 2. (z) Person 's Philop . p. 109. (a) Beca● . Cont. Aug. ● . 131 , 132. In Fowlis . p. 60. (b) Ores's N●r. p 4. N. 5 &c. 2 Parliaments cannot prevent Ruin to Protestants . 1. They may be avoided . 2. May be made to serve a Popish , not a Protestant Interest . 3. Good Laws insignificant . (c) Hist. Ref p. 110. 
A58564	----	An act for securing of the Protestant religion as it was passed in the Parliament of Scotland, on Saturday, August 13, 1681. Scotland. 1681 Approx. 10 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A58564 Wing S1099 ESTC R6422 13704194 ocm 13704194 101463 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A58564) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 101463) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 848:29) An act for securing of the Protestant religion as it was passed in the Parliament of Scotland, on Saturday, August 13, 1681. Scotland. Scotland. Parliament. 1 sheet ([1] p.) For Andrew Forrester ..., Printed at London : 1681. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Church and state -- Law and legislation. Protestantism -- Scotland. Broadsides -- England -- London -- 17th century 2008-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2009-01 Scott Lepisto Sampled and proofread 2009-01 Scott Lepisto Text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN Act for securing of the Protestant Religion , As it was past in the PARLIAMENT of Scotland , on Saturday August 13. 1681. OUR Soveraign Lord considering how necessary it is for securing the Protestant Religion , and that all his good Subjects may be fully assured that the Popish Religion shall never be introduced or tolerat in this Kingdom ; and that the many excéllent Laws made in favours of his Protestant Subjects are of the Protestant Religion against Popery , may attain the affected execution : That none but true and sencere Protestants exercise any publick Trust within this Kingdom ; and that no Iesuit , Priest , nor trafiquing Papist , who may withdraw or withold his Subjects from the Protestant Religion , be suffered to be or abyd in this Kingdom . And seeing the Acts for Excluding Papists from publick Trust have no special Penalties adjected thereto , and that there may be a clear Test to discover Papists ; Therefore his Majesty , with Advice and Consent of his Estates of Parliament , statutes and declares , That whosoever being required by any Minister of the Church or Magistrate of the Kingdom , do not subscribe the Confession of Faith subjoyned to the third Act of the first Parliament of King James 6. shall be holden and reputed Papists ; or who shall refuse to swear the Oath subjoyned to the said Confession , and signe the same in this form : I — or — we do declare and swear by the Eternal God , whom we call to be Judge and Witness of our Sincerity herein , That we assent to the said Confession of Faith according to the ordinary meaning of the word , without equivocation , mental reservation , and without accepting any dispensation , that we shall never endeavour or consent to any alteration of the foresaid Confession of Faith. And his Majesty , with consent and advice foresaid , statutes and ordains , That all who now are in any publick Trust , shall betwixt and the day of next to come , take the said Test in some of the places wherein they serve , and report the same to his Majesties Privy Council , And that all who shall hereafter at any time be admitted to any Place , Office , Commission , or Employment , Ecclesiastical , Civil , or Military , shall at their entry thereto take the said Test , and renew the same when required , under the paine of Confiscation of their Lands , which his Majesty now as then annexes to the Crown ; and shall confiscat all sums of money heretable or movable , and all movable Goods , for the use under-written . Like as his Majesty with consent foresaid , ordains all the Ministers who are or shall be in this Church , to declare upon Oath to their Ordinary at each Diocesion meeting , whom they know or suspect within their several Parichons to be in Orders or Monastick Vows of the Church of Rome , or other trafiquing Papists whom they know or suspect to be the ressetters or hearers of them say Mass or preach , and where their Residence or Haunts are ; and whom they know or suspect to be Papists in their several Paroches : And that the Bishops call before them the persons so delated , and use their best endeavours to convince them of their Errour , and unite them to this Protestant Church , and offer to them the foresaid Test ; and in case of their absence and obstinacy , that they proceed to Excommunication : And that they yearly send an Account of their diligence to his Majesties Privy-Council , in the Moneth of November ; and that they give a List of the persons delated to all the Iudges ordinary in Burghs or Landwards within their respective Diocies ; who are hereby ordained to take all other tryal for the discovery of those in Orders or Monastick Vows of the Church of Rome , and other trafiquing Papists , or other Papists : And that they take the Oaths of all Members of the Kirck-session , except the Minister , within the several Iurisdictions , for making of the like Declaration once at least every year ; and that they use all diligence to put the Laws in execution against the persons discovered or delated , as afforesaid : And that they return account of their diligence to his Majesties Privy-Council once every year in the Moneth of November , beginning in November next , with Certification that whosoever shall fail in their respective diligences above-written , shall omit their years Benefice or Stipend , and the said Magistrates that years Rent , in which they shall happen to fail to diligences , as afforesaid . Likeas his Majesty , with Consent foresaid , declares , That all Escheats , Life-rents , and other Penalties that shall befal by the execution of this Statute , or any of the former Statutes against Papists , except the Lands to which they have redeemable right , shall belong and be divided in manner following ; viz. One third part of the sums whereon Infeftment have not followed , to the Poor of the Paroch where the party transgresses and resides , and the movable Goods to the Poor of the Paroches when they are found ; and the sums whereupon Infeftment or other affectable diligence lies followed , to the Poor of the Paroch where such Lands lie respective , except of the Life-rent of such Papists who are not amongst the Trafiquers before innumerat , which may be gifted as his Majesty shall see fit : An● another third part of the saids Confiscations , to belong to the Vniversities and Colledges , viz. All within the Vniversity of St. Andrews , to the Vniversity of St. Andrews ; except the Diocies of Esr . to the Colledges of Esr . and the Diocies of Aberdeen and Morray , to the Colledges of Aberdeen ; and all within the Province of Glasgow , to the Colledge of Glasgow : And the other third part of the foresaids Confiscationes , to belong to publick Works of the several Shires , to ●e applied and managed by the Iudges Ordinary , as Iustices of Peace , or Commissioners of Excise , when there are no Iustices of the Peace : And ordains all persons who are intrusted for the said Societies Pensions and Vses , to be liable for diligence to make the same effectual . And further his Majesty , with Advice and Consent foresaid , statutes and ordains and declares , That all Kings and Queens who shall succeed to the Imperial Crown of this Kingdom in time coming , at the entry to their Government , and also at their Coronation , shall promise and swear in presence of the Eternal God , whom they call as Iudge and Witness of their sincere meaning and intention , To observe , without dispensation from any creature , the Oath contained in the eighth Act of the first Parliament of King James 6. And shall also swear , That they shall not endeavour or consent to the alteration or change of the Protestant Religion , nor to the abrogation or derogation of the Laws made for the same : That they preserve and defend this Protestant Church in the just Rights and Priviledges thereof , as now by Law established : That they shall give no Grant of any Trust , Office , or Employment within this Church or Kingdom , but whom they believe to be of the true Protestant Religion : And that they shall always allow & never hinder the standing and executing of the Laws for removing of Priests or others in Orders or Monastick Vows to the Church of Rome , out of any Office , Place , or Trust , or Employment Eclesiastick , Civil , or Military , within this Kingdom ; and shall invincibly preserve the Liberty and Property of the Subjects of this Kingdom , as the Lord and Father of Mercy shall be merciful to them : And ordains , That any Regent , Tutor , or Governor , that shall be named to and King or Queen in this Kingdom , shall take the foresaid Oath at their entry to their Government ; which Oaths shall be written and subscribed at the times of taking thereof above-written , and shall be registred and recorded in the Books of Parliament , Privy-Council , and Sessions . And likewise his Majesty , with Consent foresaid , statutes and ordains , That the nearest person to himself of the Royal Family , shall solemnly swear that he shall never endeavour or consent to the alteration of the Protestant Religion in this Kingdom , or to the abrogation of the Laws made for the same , and shall never hinder the standing and executing of the Laws made for removing out of this Kingdom all Priests and others in Orders and Monastical Vows of the Church of Rome , and other trafiquing Papists who shall endeavour to withdraw the Subjects of this Kingdom from the Protestant Religion ; or the Laws made for removing from all places of Trust in this Kingdom in Church , State , or Armies , any person whatsoever that shall not subscribe the Confession of Faith and Oath subjoyned thereto ; which is hereby declared sufficient in place of any other Test for exercising and injoyning any Place or Office Civil or Military within this Kingdom . And that whensoever any other who shall hereafter become nearest to the King in the Blood-Royal for the time being Major , or attaining that age , he shall then immediately swear and subscribe the foresaid Oath ; which Oath shall be recorded in the Books of Parliament , Council , and Session . Printed at London for Andrew Forrester , in Kings street , Westminster . 1681. 
A04376	----	A defence of the articles of the Protestants religion in aunsweare to a libell lately cast abroad, intituled Certaine articles, or forcible reasons, discouering the palpable absurdities, and most intricate errours of the Protestantes religion. Barlow, William, d. 1613. 1601 Approx. 315 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 121 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A04376 STC 1449 ESTC S100898 99836725 99836725 1011 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A04376) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 1011) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 695:05) A defence of the articles of the Protestants religion in aunsweare to a libell lately cast abroad, intituled Certaine articles, or forcible reasons, discouering the palpable absurdities, and most intricate errours of the Protestantes religion. Barlow, William, d. 1613. [12], 227, [1] p. Imprinted by [John Windet for] Iohn Wolfe, and are to bee sold in Pauls church yard by Mathew Law, London : 1601. Printer's name from STC. "Certaine articles or forcible reasons" is by Thomas Wright. Reproduction of the original in Cambridge University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Wright, Thomas, d. 1624. -- Certaine articles or forcible reasons. Protestantism -- Apologetic works. 2003-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-06 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-06 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Defence of the Articles of the Protestants Religion , in aunsweare to a libell lately cast abroad , intituled Certaine Articles , or forcible reasons , discouering the palpable absurdities , and most intricate errours of the Protestantes Religion . Vt loquerentur calumniam & transgressionem , conceperunt et locuti sunt de corde verba mendacii . Esa. 59. 13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basilius . LONDON Imprinted by Iohn Wolfe , and are to bee sold in Pauls church yard by Mathew Law , 1601. To the Right Reuerend Father in Christ , Richard , by Gods permission , Bishop of London , my very good Lo●d . TVVo venemous worms there are , which ( like snakes at the Palme roote ) doe gaster and infect the floorishing state of a setled Church , Sacrilege and Haeresie : which double mischiefe to the Church , is principally imputed to men of the Church ; ambition , basely yeelding to any compact for titular prefermentes , feeding the sacrilegious humour : factious traducing each of other for opinions different , or rather indifferent , opening a gap for the haereticall inchanter . This last , through the despite of Rome , transmitting her traiterous shauelinges to seduce good subiectes ; disgorging loathsome slaunders , to defame our Prince and State among forreners ; and principally , dispersing their infamous libels against our religion , to make it more odious to our domesticall professors , hath of late much pestered , and haunted this our Church and Realme : the inward cause is their inueterate malice , but this outrage in multiplying their blowes thus thicke and threefold ( pardon , my good Lord , if I gesse amisse ) is incensed by an opinion they haue conceyued , that there is among vs , a generall declining to Poperie , aud the ruine beginning at the very groundcelles of religion , our schooles of learning ; which , God bee thancked , stande both fast and sure , against the strongest battery of the Romish factiō , & if euer heretofore , cleerly voyde of all her superstitious infections : yet this hot surmise , though very vaine and false , hath , notwithstanding , receiued the flame from a wilde-fire zeale of some vniuersitie men , who pronounce euery position to be Popish , which is not within the verge of their paper booke common places ; and wanting the Towne-clarke his discretion Act. 19. 36 , to do nothing rashly , but to referre the determination to a lawfull assembly vers . 39. proclaimed that for heresy in a solemne meeting , which comming to a higher , and more mature examination , prooued to bee so farre from Popery , that it was on the contrary conuinced by the writings & verdict of the greatest authors of accompt among vs , to bee most sound doctrine and orthodoxall . By which offensiue clamour , woorse then Cham his irrision , so farre carried and sorting to so smale effect of trueth , howsoeuer without seuere and condigne punishmēt it escaped , yet surely , the whole state of this realme , the vniuersitie it selfe , and the particular persons thus slaunderously abused , haue receiued a wrōg scarcely expiable by the diuestiture of the accusers from their places . The Realme , because report , which getteth feathers by flying , will sound it out in forreine partes , that our fountaines are infected ; the vniuersitie , in that no parent of wisedome and religion , will send his sonne to a place suspected ; the particuler men , beeing iniuried in their good name , impeached in their preferment , discouraged in their indeuours , being as readie to confront , as willing to encounter , as able to ouerthrow any Papist , as the most forward and whotspurred challengers of the opposite enraged faction ; which by your Lordship , and other of authoritie Ecclesiasticall , being not allayed and scattered , it is no marueile if the Papist take courage , & like another Antaeus thus redouble his strength to the preiudice & disgrace of this our famous Church . An instance hereof , among many other , is this smal pamphlet aunsweared by mee , so commaunded by his Grace , wherin the author taketh euery occasion to triumph in our diuisions . VVhich aunsweare I haue presumed to present to your Lordship , both as a testimony publike of that reuerent regard , which I euer acknowledged due from my selfe vnto you ; & principally , for that I am acquainted with that most earnest desire and care which your L. reuealed at your first inuestiture into that great dignitie , to haue the common aduersarie euery w●y answered : This if your good Lordship accept and approue , it is the accōplishment of mine endeuour ; if not , the secōd part ( for this is but the first ) may bee imposed vpō some other , who with more opportunitie for leysure , & sufficiencie for learning , may discharge it better . In the meane time I commend this to your L. fauour , and your Lordship to God his protection . From his Graces house in Lambeth Ianuary . 11. 1601. William Barlow . The fiue Articles obiected concerning knowledge and faith . 1. The Protestantes haue no faith , nor Religion . 2. The Learned Protestantes are Infidels . 3. All Protestantes ignorant of the Greeke and Latine tongues are Infidels . 4. The Protestants know not what they beleeue . 5. The Protestāts haue no meane to determine controuersies , & abolish Heresies . In the aunsweare to them , these pointes are fully handled , occasioned by his obiections . In the first , the Returne of the Article in generall vpon the Papistes . Antiquitie of our particular Church . Inuisibilitie of the true Catholike Church . Constancie , and Diffusion In the second , the Qualities and nature of Infidelitie . Best exposition of Scripture , Publike Priuate Authoritie of Fathers . In the thirde , the Credite of Councels and the Church . Vse of tounges . Bibles translation . In the Fourth , the Motiues to faith , not subiect vnto reason . True rule of faith . Authoritie , of the Apostles Creede . Dignitie Vse and Substance Fiue Articles of the Creed examined . 1. Catholike Church therein the Definition & Description of the true Church . 2. Communion of Saints , wherein of the Nomber of Sacramentes . Presence in the Eucharist Inuocation of Saintes . Prayer for the dead , and Purgatorie . 3. Remission of sinnes , wherein of Baptisme . Pennance . Iustification by not imputing . 4. The Deitie of Christ. 5. Descent into Hell. In the fifth , The fittest arbiter and iudge in decision of controuersies . The differences betweene Protestantes and Puritans . An aunsweare to an odde extrauagant syllogisme about the Certaintie of Saluation . Et me prodes , nec tibi proder is , nisi perlegas . Hieronym . To reade as the booke opens casually , not from the beginning orderly , is to betray my paines , and thy profite . The greater faults escaped thus to be corrected . Blunderus . lege Bunderus , pag. 20. marg . In quos read In quo . pa. 32. lin , 8. maiestl● , for maiestie , pa. 36. lin . 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 52. lin , 9. 11 , Cor , for 1. Cor. pa. 53. marg . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 63. lin , 2. abundance , lege abundare . pa. 64. lin . v●t . pag. 67. marg . Durius for Duraeus . mendatium for mendacium . pa. 70. lin . 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pag. 71. lin , 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , lege 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 72. li. 14. Ephes. 42. lege Epistol , 42. pa. 73 , marg . ius bt . foris bu● . pag. 75. li. 1. guilt . for gilt . pa. 76. li. 10. Art. 4. for Art. 5. ibid. marg . implicit , è either , for implicitè , either . pa. 100. li. 13. speciallyo , for specially , one . pa. 102. li. 24. mattere for matters . pa. 105 , li , 6 , any , good for any good , pa. 133. li. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 144. lin . 6. which concealed , reade which was concealed . pa. 144 , li , 6. we , with . reade we , who with , pa. 147 , li. 20. erufflations , exufssations , pa. 148 , lin , 2. implay , for imply . pag. 165. lin . 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 178. lin . vlt. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 181. liu . 21. Pelus . ep . 30. reade ep . 299. ibid. Marg. ad Patres , lege ad fratres . p. 182. marg . their for there . p. 184. lin . 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 183 li. 3. 1 ▪ Tim. 3. for 2. Tim. 3. ibid. marg . high iudge , for higher , pa. 190. li. 11. thwey are no , read they are now . pag. 195. l ▪ 4. diuision of . for decision of p. 214. li. 22. A Preface to the Reader , with an aunsweare of the Letter written to his frend . IT may passe for a diuine Oracle , rather then an humane sentence , which Publius hath , a Veritatem nimiûm altercando amitti , that opposition by argument , hath not onely much weakened , but vtterly abandoned the trueth , both for substance of doctrine ( selfe b loue on both partes taking scorne to yeeld , and so causeth an opinión at first but probably controuertible , to bee in the end as an axiom mainely defensible ) and also in the manner of dispute , the opposite argumentes of our moderne aduersaries being not contradictions doctrinall , but personall maledictions : c as one of their owne well noteth , hauing no care to discharge a good conscience , without preiudice , to enquire the rectifying of their errours , wherewith they haue bene deluded , but to disgorge their virulent stomackes against the Church and profession , wherewith they are discontented : for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith d Thucydides , the present state , be it neuer so excellent , hath his malecontents . Examples hereof none more pregnant then the Romish Clergy ; and in that rabble none more pestilent , then our home-borne fugitiues ; and of these the most aspish and poysonfull , those two Runnagates with three names , Rossaeus , Rainoldes , and Gifford : who ( as if with the e Ophigenes and Psylli , they had bene fed and fostered with no aliment but poyson , ) haue breathed foorth , their in-bred malice against the heauens , and infected the aire and earth , with their pestiferous libels , f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as Epimenides once said , the very Alters and scenes of reproachfull blasphemies , against the religion we professe , euen the sincere doctrine of our Sauiour Christ. As if the purport of their writinges were , as g Ierome speaketh , Non quomodo saluentur , sed quomodo superent , not the issue of Saluation , but the pursuite of conquest , by what meanes soeuer ; h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whether the extreamest tyranny , or the most spitefull suggestions , fastening vppon vs , what malice could forge , or impudency out-face . Yet th●se writ in Latine , & so the learned alone , if wauering , might be peruerted ; if resolute , were assaulted : but of late , a vernaculer pen-man , an Abyssian Locust ; to verify the Prouerbe in i Epiphanius , Aspis a vipera venenum mutuatur , hauing translated them into English , abbreuiated into a portible libell , dedicated vnto a namelesse gentleman , capitulated into Articles , sorted into two heades , hath scattered them abroad in our vulgar tongue , that so the meanest idiote , carrying fire in his bosome , and poison in his hand , might hardly escape without daunger or infection . And requesteth his frend , That if an aunsweare be attempted , by any itching spirite , ( a fit correspondence , to such a scuruy libeller ) to intreate him to performe it briefly , orderly , and seriously . First , for the aunsweare , were it not enioyned me , by him , who by his authority in the Church , and for some fauours extended , doth commaund me , it had bene none for me , because , if I were woorthy to be heard , the whole frame of the Articles being , k to speake with Theodoret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the perturbation of an ignorant and a distempered Apostata , neither the pamphlet shold haue bene so straightly suppressed , Nam perfidiam exposuisse superasse fuis●et , as l Ierome saith , the very front of the articles bringing with it the brand of manifest confutation : nor any Apology should be shaped , holding that rule of m Ioseph for proper and sound , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , silence is the fittest aunsweare for importunate and profuse lyars . Their impudency gayning them this Priuiledge , saith Basil , and Tullie , not at all to be aunsweared , because as a man cannot fasten n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . any maine stroke and visible vpon soft and yeelding bodies , in that they haue no repercuss on : so is it bootelesse , and well neere impossible , to confute the manifest madnesse of shamelesse heretikes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with any forcible reioy●der , because they want modesty : & therefore as the o Philosopher would not haue them vouchsafed disputation , who deny principles ; no more were this masked Iesuite to be deigned an aunsweare , his articles being nought els but abhominable , and Lucianlike contumeltes . For the breuitie which he requesteth , it may soone be graunted , and no other aunsweare made , but either that which both a Christ and the b Archangell gaue vnto Sathan , The Lord rebuke thee : or that of c Cato to Lentulus , dicam falli●os quite negant os habere , I will say they are much deceiued , that deny thee to haue a mouth and a soule one too : or that of the d Spartans , to the Theban Orator , his tedious and bold speech , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if , that is , if he thinke as he writes , his ignorance is desperate , if otherwise ▪ his conscience is feared . Yet the iudic●o●s Reader will consider , that as a e wound though geuen in a trice with a thrust , cannot so soone be cured : f so a slaunder by an ill tongue may be quickely fastened , not so briefly aunsweared , g Tertullus had soone termed S. Paul a Sectary , a seditious , & a pestilent fellow , but the Apostle his Apology in clering him selfe , could not be so succinct : notwithstanding assure thy selfe good Reader , that as much as I can , I will auoid al prolixitie & perplexitie , being naturally an enemy to tedious and ambagious superfluitie . As for the order it shall be that of the h Poet I prae , sequar : the very method ( such as it is ) which himselfe hath vsed ; that as face in the water aunsweareth to face , according to i Salomon ; so euery Article shall receiue his seuerall aunsweare : which , being twelue in all , he referreth to * two heades , wit and will , faith and good life , vt vno rotatu gladii percutiat vtrumque , k saith Ierom of such another : because , quoth this Articler heresy , inueigleth the one with errour , and seduceth the other with inordinate affections . If we list to be curious with him , their owne diuines seeme to say otherwise , videlicet , l that a prinate conceite of the wit , differing from others , and pertinacy of the will , defending the difference ( both the sprouts of selfe loue ) hatcheth and causeth heresy : so that heresy is rather conceiued by the wit , then the wit deceiued by heresy . And for good life , how heresies can be referred to manners , except improperly , no diuine sheweth : for albeit the m Apostle numbreth among the workes of the flesh , Sectes and Heresies ; yet neither the word Flesh is in that place to be taken for the sensuall & brutish part of mā , but for the intellectuall corrupted : neither were it so , is it a worke of the flesh n in respect of the obiect , but of the cause , so farre forth as the will propoundes finem indebitum an vndue and vnlawfull ende , which rising from the depra●ation of the flesh , either pride to be singular ; or desire either to be magnified , or to be enriched , or to haue the lusts satisfied , o breedeth an heresy , rather then is seduced by it : For carnall men giuen ouer to their sensuality , betake themselues to some heresy in opinion , thereby to support , or to shelter their lustes : as the p Fathers do shew in the Cerinthians , Adamites and Aërians , and experience fresh and frequent , that the dissolutest liuers among vs , whome our Church and State doth vomite out for their loosenesse , therefore fly to Rome , beeing a place exempt , and priuiledged with immunities for filthy wickednesse : and that Royall exchaunge of Indulgences , by which euery sinne though neuer so horrible , for money may be pardoned , or tollerated , hath allured more customers to Popery , then either the pageant of their Masse , though daily acted , or the preaching of their Friers , though perswading mightily , or their Iesuites bookes , though scattered daungerously , yet vppon these premises he inferreth a bolde and peremptory conclusion . * I say then that no excellent good wit , linked with a religious conscience , can either accept , or affect the Protestants new coyned Gospell . Of the new coyne , anone , when we come to the triall of the min●e . Belike then as the Poet said , q Nobis non licet esse tam disertis , qui musas colimus s●u●riores , all our English professors are but blockes to Papistes , and r Bozius saith so plainely : but as Zopyrus , who tooke vppon him s to be a very skilfull Physiognomer , pronouncing of Socrates , whome Apolloes oracle had adiuged the wisest man , to be but a ●ullard and heauy witted , was laught at by the company present , but èspecially by Alcybiades : so beside many others , t Cardinall Allen , one of as sharpe insight as this Pamphleter , hath long since exibilated this rash illation ; whose opinion is , with griefe , that the finest wittes are ours , for which he yeeldes this reason , because the more pregnant and sharpe wittes , not enduring to dig and del●e in those quarries of the schoolemen , nor to plod at those intricate points , which are the rudiments of Popery , adhere to vs , and imbrace our profession , the principles and institutes of religion with vs , being more obuious and easy . As for excellency of witte , it is true which S. Austen saith , that u Ingeniosum nasci foelicitatis est , it is a singular blessing to be so indowed by nature ; because in the opinion of the * Orator , men of slow wittes haue seldome aspired to any great reach , or illustrious vertue . Notwithstanding , a pregnant natures , are like lustie groundes , these manured by industry , prooue soundly fertile ; but neglected and vntilled , tarish and weedy : so those illumined by grace , prooue Theologically iudicious , but left in their naturall faculties , the more sharpe the more daungerous ; as b Basil elegantly speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the acutest calculators of Atheisme and impiety , the most subiect and open to any heresy . And therfore our Sauiour Christ appropriateth diuine knowledge , and sound iudgement in matters of faith , not to naturall apprehension , but to c diuine inspiration . But were not the comparison of wittes odious in it selfe , and in the d Heathens opinion ouer burdensome to the Reader , and among diuines ridiculous and vnfit ( and yet , Qui velit ingenio cedere ra●us erit ) if we should take Sophocles his course , who being accused for a delir●ous and weake-braind e man , pronounced that excellent Tragedy , intituled Oedipus Colonaeus of his owne making , and asked if that might be accompted the worke of a broken witte , or dotard ; and so make a suru●ew of our mens writings , I doubt not but in the most rigorous censure of any indifferent iudge , they would , both for sharpe inuention , sound iudgement , sincere interpretation and forcible argumentes , be much preferred before the rude gloses of Bardocucullion Monkish Friers , and the trumping illusions and Sophismes of the most nimbly witted Iesuites . Millions of instances might be shewed , but promising breuitie , I refer thee to f Erasmus & g Viues , onely one I bring because he hath made a challenge . The case is propounded , to a good wit linked with a religious conscience in a matter of high state , and a deepe point of diuinitie : Whether it be lawfull for a subiect to murther his Soueraigne an heretike . We dullard Protestantes thinke no , because S. Paul hath said h Let euery soule be subiect , their fine wits hold yea , because S. Paul saith Haereticum deuita , i id est , de vita tolle . In a particular , whether Iacob Clemens the Dominican might by authoritie of holy writ , kil Henry the III. of France ? We blockish witted professors are of the negatiue part , & suppose hee should haue said with k Dauid , God forbid that I should lay mine hand vpon the Lordes annointed . But he in the acute excellency of his witte , linked with a religious conscience , reasoneth thus with himselfe , l Ehud killed Eglon , and therefore I may kill Henry ; his ground of resolution very witty , Eglon was a king , and so is Henry , Eglon signifieth a m Calue , and Henry is a Caluenist , and therefore assuredly I may murther him by Scripture ; such excellent wittes and religious consciences let Rome brag of and foster , God keepe them from vs ; and this for his methode of wit and will. The last request he makes is , that the answeare should be * serious . Assuredly in conference about religion , it is no fit aunsweare for a diuine , which n Archias made to a messenger that came to him , with letters importing earnest matters , & requiring serious consultation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Serious matters to morrow , let vs now be merry , for a o curse lies vpon him that deales in the Lordes worke negligently , much more in iest : notwithstanding hauing perused this paltry pamphlet , and finding it to bee as p Iosephus said of Apion his writinges 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a very heape and misken of shamelesse vntruethes , rather then scholler like arguments , or true cōtrouersies , & the obiections articulated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as q ●stine speaketh , not vpon mature iudgement , but a passionate discontentment , linked with a bad conscience , little caring , as r Naz. saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not what hee speakes , but how much he can speake ; I demurred with my selfe , as s that learned Iew did in his grapple with that Granimarian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it were woorth the while , to deale seriously or no ? Because t S. Ierome his r●le is , that such open blasphemies procure & deserue magis indignationem scribentis , quam studium , rather an aunsweare with skorne , then in earnest ; or such an one as u Lactantius gaue Aristoxenus , nimirum manu pulsandus hic est , but I trust by that time hee hath read this aunsweare , hee will say there hath bene vsed neither dalliance nor iest ; vnlesse it be such sport as a Abner speakes of , Surgant pueri & ludant , the triall of our weapons at the least . And this for our prolusion , now we meete ; and behold an vncircumcised tongued Goliah blaspheming the most high God. The first Article . The Protestants haue no Faith nor Religion . The Protestants haue no faith , no hope , no charitie , no repentance , no iustification , no Church , no Altar , no sacrifice , no Priest , no religion , no Christ. Answere . LIngua quo vadis ? If Pythagoras his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were to be credited , a man would thinke , that eyther a Rabshekah his soule had beene transported into this mans bodie , their blasphemie is so semblable ; the one perswading the Israelites , that they had neither right altars whereon to sacrifice , not true God whom they did worship : and this other impudently at the first dash auowing , that our profession is nothing els but Athe●sme and irreligion : or els that hee were a Lindian borne , who vsing to offer their sacrifices with curses and execrable maledictions , thought their holy rites were prophaned , if , al the time of their solemnitie , vel imprudenti alicui exciderit bonum verbum , saith Lactantius , any of them , at vnawares , had cast out , or let fall a good worde . By which speech , if he touch our professours , as men liuing without Faith , Hope , Charitie and Repentance : or , as if there were neither Church nor Priest , nor Christ , as it is a slander for the vntruth , so is it an elench of the accident , in disputation to reason from the doctrine to the persons : if he meane the forme and substance of the profession it selfe , then either is he ignorantly blind , & so verifieth that speech of Esay in himselfe , which in the title of his booke he hath prefixed , Impegimus meridie quasi in tenebris ; like Seneca his blind woman , that said it was darke night , being a cleare sunshine day , for wee professe not within the walles , but vpon the house top : or els ( the opinion of the schoolemen being sound , that a contradiction of a manifest truth ex destinata malitia contra conscientiam , vpon prepensed malice against a mans owne knowledge and conscience is that great sinne and irremissible ) he is Pharisaically blasphemous : for as they being in their minds assured that our Sauiour cast out Diuels by the finger of God , yet , vpon a fixed malice , auowed it to be coniuring , & therfore were condemned for blasphemers of the holy Ghost : so this cursing Shemei cannot but know that wee preach Christ a Emanuel , b God equall with his Father , c incarnate of a virgine , crucified for man , d the perfection of the law , e the summe of the Gospell . Faith , both assenting , with a setled beliefe of his doctrine , and iustifying by application of his merites . Hope , the anchor of our confidence , in the most daungerous surges sure and stedfast . Charitie the life of both , the bond of perfection , binding vs to God , making vs one spirite with him ; and to our neighbour , both in affection and action , by giuing and forgiuing . Repentance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Chrisostome speaketh , as well in the cōtrition of heart , as the reformatiō of the mind : and so of the rest , proportionable to scriptures . He , I say , which knowing this shall notwithstanding thus shamelessely pronounce the contrary , condemnes himself , giuen ouer to a reprobate sence , by turning the truth of God into a lie , and therefore not farre from that vnpardonable sinne . Yet this must not much moue vs thus to be censured , because euen in the Primitiue state the Christians were so intituled by tyrantes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , away with these Atheistes . Yea some of the Popish Canonists haue not doubted to conclude of the whole Colledge and companie of the Apostles to bee heritikes and infidels : and also that it is an vsuall custome for the most guiltie to be the vehemētst accusers , & none so ready to cry treson , as Athaliah the onely vsurper . For this giddie Articler which cannot see woode for trees , nor in the most glorious Church true religion , if he would but looke backe into his owne synagogue , might he not say as hee in Plut. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is not our Church guiltie of that wee accuse them ? Not to examine all these particulars , how they rather haue no Faith , annihilating it by merite of worke . No Hope weakening it by doubtfullnesse of saluation . No Repentance , auoyding that by Indulgence of toleration . No Charitie , especially towardes God , extinguishing that by their heape of superstitions ( for perfect loue casteth out feare , but where superstition is , there is feare more then seruile . This being the difference , euen in the opinion of a Pagan , betweene an Atheist and a superstitious man , that the one , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thinkes there is no God to rewarde vertue : the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wisheth there were no God to punish sinne . ) No Religion , neither as it is the true knowledge of the true God , concealing that from the meany , by casing the Scriptures in a straunge translation , as the Philistines stopped ●saac his wells through enuie : Nor as it is the syncere worship of one God and alone , defiling the puritie , and diuiding the integritie thereof , by that latrioduliacall distinction of Idols adoration , and Saintes inuocation : onely let vs trie the last , whether it may not iustly be returned vpon them , that they have No Christ , and that in his owne methode , which in his Epistle , he calleth Syllogisticall : the doubting whether Christ be the onely Emanuel God and man is the negatiue of Christ , but their diuines dispute , whether the Pope also be * simplex homo a * pure man , or quasi Deus participet vtramque naturam cum Christo , or as God , participate both natures with Christ. Againe , the preferring of any man before Christ in any vertue , is to deny Christ , but they conclude the Pope to be clementior Christo , more kind & mercifull then Christ , because he neuer released soule out of Purgatory , as the Pope hath done many . If it be said , that these are but Scholasticall combates for triall of wittes , no positiue conclusions : ( and yet Saint Basil ▪ saith , that such questions propounded euen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for disputation sake , are blasphemies against the spirite , and the poyson of religion ) you shall haue a Thesis , in a comparison betweene Iohn Baptist and S. Frauncis . The impairing of Christes dignitie , in preferring any aboue him , is to make no Christ ; Now heare and tremble : Iohn Baptist receiued the word of repentance from the Lord Christ , but S. Frauncis receiued it from the Lord also , & , quod plus est , a Papa , and , which is more , from the Pope . Adde another betweene Christ & Dominike . The diuiding Christs soueraigntie with another , is to make no Christ , for hee will all or none , because both his father hath giuen him the whole world for his possession , and himselfe challengeth it , Omnis potestas mihi data . And therefore is he called , the Lord of Lords : but say they ; Christ indede is Lord absolutè & authoritatiu● , by absolute commission , but Dominike is Lord possessiuè by actuall possession : yea , by the ingenuous cōfession of one of their owne schollers , till the time of Pius Quintus , which is not aboue 50. yeares since , Iesus Christ had bene banished out of Rome , but that Pope thē brought him backe againe . So then , to giue this fellow his shortest and best aunsweare , this position argues him to bee maliciously mad ; for a man beeing a member of that Synagogue , thus execrably opinionated , and knowing in his conscience the contrary to this his accusation in our Church , both by our positions doctrinall , our profession practicall , and the worldes testimoniall ; thus paradoxically in the entrance of his booke to articulate , Non Sani esse hominis , nō sanus iuret Orestes , as the Poet saith , and Ierome applies it : yet least hee should seeme mad without a reason , thus he frames one . For if they haue , thē the world was with out them for 1000. yeares ( as they them selues must needes confesse , videlicet , Al that time their Church was eclipsed ) & for 1500. as * we will proue by the testimony of all records of antiquity , as Histories , Councels , monuments of auncient Fathers . Aunsweare . Dum breuis esse labor at absurdus fit . He promised vs syllogismes , wee will shape one for him . If the Protestantes haue Faith , Hope , Religion , Christ &c. then the worlde for 1000. yeares wanted them : but the worlde wanted them not , ergò they haue them not . A fish of three dayes keeping , and the consequent of this Maior may goe together for stinking new : it hauing bene a stale obiectiō made by a Haman against the Iewes : by b the Pagans against S. Paul : by c Celsus against Christ : d by the world against the Gospell : by e the Tyrants against Christians : and by the whole cluster of Pseudocatholicall scriblers against vs , that our Church and profession , is but of yesterdayes breed . But I aunsweare briefly , euen as Aemilius Scaurus answeared Varius his accuser , Varius dicit , Scaurus negat , vtri creditis ? They obiect it , we deny it , and not deny it onely , but demōstrate the contrary , that we worship the same God , acknowledge the same Christ , professe the same faith , haue the same hope , which the Patriarkes before the Law , the Prophetes vnder Moses , the Apostles vnder our Sauiour , and the Primitiue Christians vnder the Gospell , syncerely kept and professed for 110. yeres after the Ascention of Christ as Hegesippus obserued , & for 600. yeares after him in the soundest churches were continued , & by the learned Fathers were defended . This challenge hath bene sounded , the gauntlet cast out ; some one hath taken it vp , and like Virgill his wolfe caudamque remulcens turnd his backe with disgrace : and yet this namelesse and shamelesse Catholike thinkes to carry it away with an Hypotheticall proposition , in a three halfepenny pamphlet : and so hee might , if he could make that good which he saith , and confirme it , first , by our owne confession , and secondly , by the testimony of all ages . For the first , let it bee supposed that wee must needes confesse our Church to bee eclipsed : yet this confession is their confutation . For , if our church for 1000. yeares was eclipsed , then it followeth , it was extant , and that we had one , though a little one , a small flocke , a few names , and this is all we desire , & that which they so mainly deny ( especially Stapletō , Cāpian , & Duraeus , frō whom this libeller hath gleaned those handfuls of his ) for as the Sunne though it be placed in a tabernacle in the heauēs , that both the light and heate thereof , might be seene & felt ouer the whole earth , yet somtimes by clouds it is enueloped , & by mists fogged ▪ oft times by eclipses obscured , and once euery 24. houres by the earthes shadow , which is the night , àbandoned ; yet still as Dauid speaketh , both like a Giant he continues his course and force naturall ; & like a gallant bridegrome , kepes his brightnesse and glory , though not alwayes visibly , yet substantially . So Christes church , though euen from the Apostles time , thorough the mystery of iniquitie , and the mistes of impietie , and the eclipses of Apostacie , and the darkenesse of ignorance , it was obscured , and as it were , vnder the earth , in caues and holes , and rockes , and desertes , saith the Apostle : yet still she kept her course inuisibly , but effectually ; which makes it saith Austen , non vt nulla sit , sed vt parum gloriosa . Not that it wanted her glory at any time , For glorious things are spoken of thee , thou Cittie of God. But the kings daughter being all glorious within , it was not alwaies aspectable to fleshly eyes . But might it please this challenger to set downe some inforcement of our confession . We say for our Church , that is , for our profession , with Egesippus , that it remayned a pure and immaculate Virgine till the Apostles were taken from the earth , and so had still continued , if the Suruiuers and Successours , so tearmed , had remembred our Sauiours caueat of the Pharisees leauen , humane inuentions , or Saint Paules premonition of aliud Euangelium , vncertaine traditions : or that councell which Vegetius giues to common souldiers ne palustribus aquis vtantur , to kepe themselues to the pure fountaine of the Scriptures without blending or corruption : and by that first church we desire to haue ours examined , thinking the neerer the purer ; whereas some of them , shunning this touchstone , stick not to say that the church , euen in the Apostles time , was but rude , and vnsound in many preceptes of doctrine , & , for exāple , one sets downe an instance of Priestes marriage . And for our particular English church , as auncient euery day , and as Christian euery way as the Romane , a primor dio Euangelii saith Polidore , and therefore by Faber , called Semen Apostolicum : being planted and watered either by Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles , or by Ioseph of Arimathea , as Theodoret witnesseth . And for the integritie thereof , one of their owne auerres , that from the time of Eleutherius Bishop of Rome anno 177. of Christ , Christianitas inter eos nunquam defecit . And least you should thinke this Christianitie to be the Romish Religion : first , remember the difference of our obseruation of Easter from them , kept according to the custome of the Eastern church , which for long after would not stoope any way to the Romane Bishop : secondly , the opposition , which was made against the Monke Austen , forced vpon our land as a Legate : and lastly , that which Platina writeth , that Gregory his course , which he tooke by the ministery of this his Apostle , was not fidei dogma integrè tractare , sed eius integritatem adulterare . His second presumption is , the testimony of Histories , Fathers Councels , for 1500. yeares . This is but the cracke of an elder pipe : and as the poore man said of his sow when he sheard , here is great crie & little wooll : he might ( affecting such breuitie ) haue more shortly said , we will proue it by the Pope . For they equalling the Fathers with Scriptures , and preferring Councels before the Fathers , & amounting the Pope aboue Councels ( in saying that the sentence of the Pope in rebus fidei , is , penitus definitiua , but of the Councels definitionis ambulatoriae ) all the proofes he can bring , must be from the Oracle of the Popes brest : and yet there he will faile , for euen their owne Popes will crosse thē , Iulius the Pope , for the immersion of the bread at the Cōmunion . Clement the Pope in the challenge of both swordes Leo the Pope for their reiteration of Masses : and Gelasius the Pope , for their halfe Communion . As for antiquitie , we request it our iudg , so it be that which Ignatius appealeth vnto , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the antique doctrine of Christ. For histories , none rather then those written by his finger , which is the Ancient of dayes . For Fathers , none sooner then him whome Iustine calleth , Patrem Patrum , that is , S. Paul. For Councels , none more earnestly thē the consent & sentence of the Synode of the Apostles . And let him promise vs not to deale as Apelliconis tineae with Aristotles books , to bring vs moath-eaten Fathers ▪ and counterfaite Councels , mutilated , depraued , corrupted , falsified , as Clement serued Theodoret , and Pighius S. Austen , and the Louanistes Origen , & their Index expurgatorius all the monumentes of antiquitie , and his challenge shall be aunsweared : but he did well to take a day , & say , we will prooue it , for hetherto as great men as he haue fayled in it , and till he performe it , we will expect him . Meanewhile let him take the aduice with him , which Archidamus gaue to his foole-hardie sonne , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , either to bring more strength , or lesse rage ; for challenging without valour , argues more rage , then courage . But vpon these ●premisses imagined , not proued ; presumed not grāted ; he inferreth two corollaries proportionable , first , that we countenance Iudaisme , secondly , that we induce and support Atheisme . as followeth . * Whereby it plainly appeareth , that the Synagogue of the Iewes , was more constant in continuance , and more ample for place , then the Church of Christ ( for they haue had their Synagogue visible in diuers countries euer since Christes death and passion , euen vntill this day . Answere Iron sharpneth iron , saith Salomon , and one absurditie drawes on another . If constancie in the same state , and visibilitie in outward apparance were the indiuisible and essentiall markes of Christes Church , there might be some shew of these consequentes : but for the first , it hath often bene shewed , that the Church is in scriptures and Fathers resembled to the Moone : which , howbeit nourished with earthly vapours , is lightned from the Sunne , and the neerer the brighter ; yet by the interposition of the earth , hath her often eclipses : so the Church of God for the bulk and greatnesse thereof , consisteth of men liuing on earth , but illumined by the Son of righteousnesse shining with his graces , sanctified by his spirit , and therfore by the Fathers defined Coetus fidelium & electorum , and also confirmed in the Catechisme decreed by the Councell of Trent , and published by Pius Quintus ; yet the opposition of the earth , both their owne earthly mēbers , which they carry about thē , the lusts & concupiscence which are within them , subiect thē to many imperfections ( as the Moone is neuer without spots ) that they cannot continue the same tenor of sanctitie in the same vigour ; and of earthly men also , either the tyranny , or the superstition , or the ignorance of the world , or some , or all , obscuring it . Constant it is , for durance , whether wee looke backward or forward : Backward , hauing her beginning in paradise , founded not onely vpon the Apostles , but the Prophets , and therefore by Dauid called Congregatio ab initio . For , ex quo sancti vocātur , est E●clesia in terris , saith S. Austen ▪ Forward , ad consummationē seculi . Matth. 28. therefore by the Prophet intituled Requies domini in sempiternum Psal. 131. properly resembled to a vine Psal. 80 the more it is pruned , the further it spreadeth ; herein differing , because the vine if it bleed , it dieth , but the churches bleeding is her breeding : Constant , for assurance both of his protection , & of her saluation , beeing predestinate in Gods prescience , sealed with the indelible character of his election Nouit Dominus qui sunt sui ; accompanied with his graces whose gifts and calling , are without recalling ; guarded by his power , for nenio rapiet eas de manibus meis ; regarded by his prouidēce stray they may as sheepe , perish they cannot ; ascertained of his fauour , louing them to the ende , whome he once begins to loue ; assisted by his spirite , which beeing semen 〈◊〉 1. Ioh. 3. 9. dwelleth in them prayeth with them , pleadeth for them ; assured of their glorie , one lincke drawing on another , for whome he hath predestinate , called , sanctified , he cannot but glorifie . This constancie of continuance by succession of time we acknowledge in the churche , it beeing Gods generation neuer fayling , but not in vnchangeable successe either for state or place , being a flock distressed , and dispersed ouer the whole earth ; sometimes so great , that we may say to it with Esay , dilata locum tentorio tuo ; sometimes so small , that we may 〈◊〉 with the Apostles Domine pauci sunt qui saluantur ? As for V●sibilitie it is an externall ornament , no necessarie argument of Christs church , which we are taught to beleue , not to behold ; it is Catholike , & vniuer sale intelligitur , saith Boetius , singulare sentitur ; the winde bloweth where it listeth , and wee know not whence it commeth , nor whether it goeth , but where the spirite is , there is the church : otherwise this argument would aswell befit Bethel , where Ieroboam his calues had more concourse , then the Templeat Ierusalem , and might iustifie the Ephesians clamour , Great is Diana of Ephesus ▪ whome all the world worshippeth ; and serue Turkie as well as Rome , their church being as apparant in shew , as ceremonius for rites , as superstitious in deuotion , as glorious in temples , and as auncient for succession as the Romish Synagogue ( since that faithfull citie became an hailot ) both of them beginning about the time of Phocas anno domini 65 6. And good for the Arrians , who measured the church by multitude , not qualine , saith Nazianz. But let the church speak for her selfe , I am blacke ye daughters of Ierusalem : Let S● Iohn describe her , a woman fled into a desert ; Let stories hieroglyphically depaint her , Noas arke , Abrahams progenie , Iobs familie , Eliahs complaint , Nabuchodonosers furnace , the Apostles latent , with the doores shut , the Christians couchant , when their liues were sought , the priuate Liturgie in the time of Traiane , and those antelucani hymni , which Pliny mentioneth . But admit that successiue continuance , and conspicuous amplitude , were the true notes of the church , yet neither maketh this for Rome , which hath had her many eclipses . Duraeus confesseth , that from the time of S. Peter , til the inuestiture of Pope Syluester , the Bishops of that sea had no certayne place of aboade , but were inforced to performe their holy rites , in cryptis & coetibus piorum , in corners and priuate assemblies of the godly ▪ & so Ciruetus Doracensis , that the Eucharist was offered occultè sine pompa ; and before the Nicene councell the church of Rome was little regarded as Pius the secōd witnesseth . Neither againe would this Catholikes argument follow , it being no sound conclusion in Logike , to reason from a locally scited Synagogue to a church vniuersally diffused , that , because the Iewes haue had a congregation visible , therefore it is to be preferred before Christs church dispersed . In deede visible it hath bene , but miserable ; seene and scorned ; acknowledged , but detested ; Orbis ludibrium & opprobrium ; in so much that some stories record , and trauailers report , that those places into which they are remaunded , carry with thē such a noysome & strong smell , as may be compared to the remainders of Sodome destroyed . But haue not the Protestantes particular churches , beene as conspicuous as Rome it selfe ? View Denmarke , Polonia , Boeme , Russia , Germany , Flaunders , Scotland , and principally Albion , truely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , England I meane● , so splendently appearing these 60. yeares together ( onely a quinquenniall Eclyps dreadfull and bloudie excepted ) that the glory thereof , hath inraged Sathan and his complices with furious discontentments , the beautie allured straungers from farre , desiring to approache it , that they might say with Dauid Sicuti audiuimus , Sic vidimus , & we with him , Sic videntes admirati sunt : & yet still he goeth on . Which is the onely path to lead men into Atheisme , as though Christ were not as yet come into the world , whose a admirable promises , are not accomplished , b whose assistance hath failed in preseruinge his church , vnto the worldes ende , c whose presence was absent many yeares before the finall consummation , & consequently they open the gap to al Machiuellians , who say that our Sauiour was one of the deceiuers of the world , promising so much concerning his Church , and performing so little . Answere . — Cytharoedus Ridiculus , chorda qui semper oberrat eâdem . Where a man makes his shadow his combatant , or appointeth his enemie his weapon , the victorie is easie ; still he supposeth that weegraunt , the church must bee visible , or els this his second Corollary must be true , wherein he would conclude , that the inuisibilitie of Christes church is the gap to Athe●sme , 1. denying the certainetie of Christes first comming , 2. the accomplishment of his promises , 3. the assistance of his protection , 4. the presence of his power . The cōtrary were true . Fortake the proportion of the body by the head , his first aduent being altogether in obscuritie , his conception reuealed onely to his mother , his birth made knowne to a few shepeheardes , his lodging allotted in a cratch ; in accompt so base , that he was reputed , as Bernard speaketh , pro despicatissimo vernaculo , immò vermiculo , his inward glorie so great , that the prophesie was verified Speciosus prae filiis hominū ; in outward shew so meane , that Esay his description was fullfilled , In quos nec species , nec decor : ( which was the Iewes stumbling blocke , who admitted no good out of Galilee and Nazareth ; and the disciples scandall , who still expected his Imperiall Diademe ) so his body the Church , begun in a few , not known to the world , or if known , persecuted , euen as her head Christ , quem viderunt & oderunt : His second comming shall bee maiesticall , and the church triumphant , shal be conspicuous : therefore this argument inuerted , is the sounder , videlicet , The state of the body being proportionable to the apparition of the head , ascertayneth to the world his first comming : but the inuisibilitie of the Church militant on earth , is proportionable to Christ his personall appearance in his first aduent ; ergo it ascertaineth that he is already come . So for the second , scilicet , The accomplishment of his promises . The more ● Catholike the church , the more those promises by Christ warranted , by Esay prophecied , by this Pamphleter alleadged , are in trueth accomplished , and our new Romani●●es dealing with the church , as the olde Romanes with their Goddesse Victoria , clipping her winges ▪ and chayning her to Rome do both fa●sifie the Prophete ; prediction , and p●nion too straightly the large dona●ue of Christ. The prophecy was , That the church gate should be open continually , that the riches of the Gentiles , and their kinges might be brought in , and the nations standing out should perish . Therefore to restraine this vniuersall subiection to Iewry alone , as the Apostles once ignorantly supposed , and the Iewes afterward arrogantly contended ; or to Rome , which all her champions haue so challenged , were to abridge most presumptuously , those bountifull promises which Dauid prophecied , that Egipt , Babylon , Tyre , Aethiope , and Palestina , should be borne in her and to her ; and that redemption , which the Elders confessed with ioy , out of euery tribe , nation , and kingdome : for the church is not gathered ex vna gente , sed ex vniuersis mundi partibus reges paritura saith Austen not of one people , but of all the partes of the world , bringing foorth kings , which shold be , as Esay prophecied , Foster Fathers , and Queenes to be nursing mothers to the church ; preresembled in those three kings or sages , which came from farre , to do personall homage vnto her head , and king at Bethleem ; and long before that , in S. Austens opinion , prefigured in the Queene of Saba , her long iourney to Salomon . And albeit in the primitiue nonage of the church , this promise of kinges allegiaunce thereunto , was not so fully àccomplished , because in those dayes , that prophesie of our Sauiour , was rather verified , You shall be brought before kings for my names sake , by them to be persecuted euen to death ; The best of the kings , for a long time , reaching but to king Agrippa his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a slender inclination to religion , . And the first●king christened that euer we read of , Lucius the k. of England● which was 180. yeares after Christ ; and Alexander Seuerus the I. Emperour , qui bené de Christianis sentire coepit , which was 230. yeares after ; yet both before that time , was the promise , by Esay prophecied , accomplished in the gathering of the Gentiles ; & in processe of time , the number so incresed , though still inuisiblie , that as her loue said in the Canticles , There are threescore Queenes and fourescore Concubines , and of the daughters without number . As for those homages , or rather base vassalages of Emperours and kinges , and that much bragd of donation , which Pipine king of France , gaue to Steuen the 2. and his successours , in lieu of the Pope his absoluing this rebell from his loyall allegiance to his lawfull prince , ( falsly intituled Constantines donation ) are nothing within the circuite of Esay his prophecy , alleadged by this libeller ; but rather which S. Iohn foresaw , and reuealed , that the kings of the earth should commit fornication with the strumpet of Babylon . The two last are easily reioyned , for the Spirite of God , which is Christ his viceroy he●e on earth , both for his preseruing assistaunce , and powerfull presence , as hee is called the Holy ghost , sanctifying the elect in their hartes and actions ; and a Doctor informing their mindes ; and a Pledge assuring their consciences against the day of Redemption ; so is he principally called the Pa●aclete or Comforter , both assisting thē in their troubles , and comforting them in their afflictions : so that , if this were the eu●dent marke , and continuall state of Christes church to be outwardly glorious , what neede it either a Protector to defend it , or a Comforter to support it ? for the whole neede not the Phisi●ion , but the sicke . Therfore because the church should still be endaung●red , he promised his assistaunce ; and because dismayed , his presence ; both effectuall , yet alwayes inuisible . For so saith Bernard , There are three aduents of Christ , in the first , he was seene on earth , couuersing with men in flesh and infirmitie ; in the last hee shal be seene in ●eauen , in glory , and m●●estle : the middle aduent , which hath-beene since his Ascention , and is now continuall , occultus est , & soli Electi in seipsis vident ●um , in spirite and power . Then our position , denying the cōspi●uous constant visibilitie of the church truly Cathelike , to be an essentiall note thereof , is neyther negatiue of Christ his aduent , nor impeachment of his promises , nor weakening his assistance , nor abandoning his presence : but the poorer and weaker his flocke , the more admirable is the accomplishment of his promises , and the more to be magnified is his protecting power , & his powerfull presence . For , my power is per●ected in weaknesse , saith himselfe to Paul. For Atheisme and Machiauelisme , in the church of Rome they bred & from thence haue beene spred , for all her glorious conspicuitie . Melch. Canus constantly auoucheth , Italy to bee the very fountaine of Atheistes . Machiauell was a Florentine , and the authour of that detestable libell , De t●ibus impostoribus , whether Aretinus or Postellus , eyther an Italian or a Frenchman , neither of them a visible mēber of any reformed church . And not to ransacke all corners , let a Pope of Rome speake for Rome it selfe , so glorious , so gorgious , so constant . Pius Quintus often spake it with griefe , Roman adhuc magis gentiliz are quàm Christianizare , and it is not 50. yeares since hee died , that Rome was yet more heathenish then Christian● so thē we conclude this point of Visibilitie , with that speech of Clement . Alexandr . Any thing becomes a Christian better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then to be pompous : if euery Christian , whose bodie is the temple of the holy Ghost , much more the Church , which is the body of Christ , should not glorie in her pompe . The Second Article . The Learned Protestants are Infidels . 1 Whosoeuer buildeth his faith vpon his owne priuate , and singular exposition of Scripture , is an Infidell . This is his Mai●r . Aunsweare . STrumpettes , they say , haue more easie deliuerie in their trauaile , then honest womē ; and Sophisticall arguments are sooner framed then true syllogismes : the tearmes of this proposition being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the connexion will not hold , for Faith and Infidelitie beeing ex diametro opposite cānot agree at the same time in the same subiect . Is it a trueth which he buildes ? then the builder is no Infidell , is it a falshood ? then that which he buildes is not Faith but errour . All knowledge in Diuinitie is threefold , as the light is , opinion , compared to the twylight ; Faith , to the dawning ; science , to the Sunne shine ; the first is neither certaine , nor euident , being still in formidine oppositi , and so resoluing vpon nothing , falleth either in obliquum ambigui , or errorem mendacii , and is the very fountaine of Atheisme and heresie ; at the best , it is but that which S. Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a very morphew & faint colour of knowledge . The third ( Scienti● ) is both certaine and euident , which being within the compasse of S. Paul his non 〈◊〉 , in respect of vs , is proper to that other li●e , saith Basil , where we shal know euen as we are knowne ; because we having here not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as Damascen speaketh , but compassed about with this vaile of flesh , haue no other knowledge but 〈…〉 in part and vnperfect . The middle therefore which is Faith is certaine but not euident , being of thinges not seene Heb. 11. quia valdé remota est a sensibus 〈◊〉 saith S. Augustine . But there being exfide in fidem Rom. 1. 17. degrees in ●aith , he which reacheth not the highest step , is not to be concluded an Infidell : for , 〈◊〉 in vniuersali , errans in particulari is no infidelitie in the iudgment of the schooles ; els the Apostles deriring to haue their faith increased Luc. 17. might bee accompted infidels , and the Apostle his difference betweene a weakeling in faith and an Infidel , were superfluous , Wherefore as in that morall precept of Epicharmus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be the strength , & ioynts of wisedome , there is not inioyned an Academicall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an obstinate restrainte of the assent to any thing we reade or heare , but a prepensed deliberation , not to be rashly credulous : so in diuine knowledge , Faith , being by S. Austen defined intellectus cum assensu , they whome Christ calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 slowe of heart to bel●eue , were not to bee intituled Infidels . For tarditie and suspence of the assent , may arise by some obstacle not remooued , but infidelitie proceedes from a pertinacie of the minde . Therefore his proposition had bene more Theologicall and Logicall , Whosoeuer builds his opinion or his errour is an Infidell . For nothing is to be accompted faith , whose obiect is not veritas prima ; Againe , building of a mans faith argues his desire to be confirmed therin , a thing not incident to an infidell . For all infidelitie is purae negationis or prauae , either priuatiue or contrary : the first in them to whome the trueth was neuer reuealed , as the Pagans and Heathen , which haue not the knowledge of God ; and these can haue no desire to confirme their faith which they haue not , for ignotinulla cupido : the other , in them to whome the trueth is manifested , which , with Dauid , wee may call the Adders Infidelitie . Psalm . 58. 4. that will not heare the voyce of the charmer , nor beleeue the Prophets report . Esay 53. 1. but resist the holy Ghost , and the trueth reuealed Act. 7. ( the Fathers distinguish thē , with non audire , and nolle audire ) and this beeing an opposition ioyned with a contempt of the trueth , is right infidelitie , and the defence of such an one his opinion , is not to be called a rearing but a rasing , not a building but a demolition of faith . If it be obiected that he speakes not of faith in definitely , but limittes it personally , His faith , which may be false ; I aunsweare , that any mans faith , if it bee proportionable to the generall faith receiued , neede no other building , then that which is allready vpon the Prophets and Apostles Ephes. 2. if exorbitant from it , then it is no faith , but either an erronious opinion in the conceite , or hereticall in the defence , and so no faith , because fidei non potes● subesse aliquod falsum . if by his faith hee meane an outwarde profession , hee gaines nought by it , because any mans profession is either true or false , according to his knowledge . And so the Maior is euery way absurd . yet thus hee confirmes it by two arguments , first , from the nature of faith , secondly , from the daunger of priuate exposition . 1 Because faith must bee infallible , and impossible to be either erroneous or chaungeable . Aunsweare Ex tuo ore●serue nequam . If this be true in faith generally , then he which buildes his faith , that is , ascertaines vnto himself the knowledge of trueth howsoeuer , neither buildes towers in the aire , nor makes by-pathes in the way idest , neyther conceiues fancies easily mutable , nor stablisheth errours daungerously deceiueable , much lesse is an Infidell ▪ True it is , that faith is an assent with an assuraunce , which certitude makes it differ from opinion , doubtfulnesse , and suspition , the inseparable pages of him , whom S. Iames calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Iac. 1. 8 Yet there . may be in faith both assenting , & assuring , at sometimes and in some pointes hoesitance and wauering , which demonstrate mans infirmitie , not to bee called infidelitie . For though Christ haue prayed that the faith of his chosen may not suffer an eclipse either totall or finall Luc. 22. yet euen the saints of God , haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and defectes in faith , 1. Thess. 3. 10. yea , with faith , especially of assent , there may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mar. 9. 24. which must bee translated incredulitie for want of that full perswasion which S. Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 10. 22. not ininfidelitie , which , beeing an obdurate pertinacie he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ephes. 4. 19. and therefore some of their owne writers ventilating the title of Alphonsus , Dubius in fide infidelis est , are bold to say , that this is but iuris . fictio , not reiveritas , vnlesse with that doubting there bee ioyned pertinacia . For , subscribing to an heresie affectu alliciente , non errante intellectu , though in the suspition of the Law it be infidelitie , yet in truth and properly it is not so , saith Canus . His second argument followeth . 2 But faith which is builded vppon priuate exposition of Scripture , is subiect to errour and change , and consequently vpon better aduice , & consiration may be altted . Aunsweare His meaning of priuate exposition , wee will examine in the Minor : onely here in a word , let vs trie whether faith builded vpon publike exposition be vnchangeablie true , and may not be altered . By publike exposition , wee meane , as they , the Church , Councels , Fathers , or in truth , the Pope only . For so Canus will haue it , because to him alone was giuen Priuilegium infirmitatis not to erre in his definitiues of faith ( in decreto fidei ) I demaunde therefore , beginninge with S. Austen , the opinions which hee once held , and after retracted , were they built vpon priuate or publike exposition ? if vppon his owne priuate , then , by this fellowes Maior , he was at the same time both a Christian & an infidell : if vpon publike , then a faith so builte also may bee chaungeable . The sentences of Councels are publike expositions , is faith vnfallible grounded vpon them ? alteration must be when expositions are contradictory , and these haue bene often seene in Councels , that speach of S. Austen holding true , Plenaria Concilia soepé priora a posterioribus emendantur . As for Popes , the obseruation hath beene well made , that since the time of Stephen the VI. it hath bene the custome of Popes , rising either from enuie , or vaine-glory , the succeeding Bishops acta priorum aut infringerent , aut omninó tollerent , would either narrowly empale , or vtterly repeale the decrees of their predecessors . And that the sea Apostolike may erre in faith , not our men alone , but very many of theirs , cited euen by Canus himselfe , doe dispute and conclude . So then my short conclusion is against this proposition , first , that he which buildes his faith , is no Infidell , Secondly , that the mutabilite or errour in matters of faith is the euent non expositionis priuatae , but depranatae , not the singuler interpretation of any mā , but that which S. Peter calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a distorted corruption of the text , whether publike or priuate . His Minor followeth : 2 But all Protestantes builde their faith vpon their owne priuate exposition of Scripture . Aunsweare . If by priuate exposition he meane as Moses speaketh Nombers 16. 28. a mans owne fancie without Gods direction , wee deny this assumption : we say with S. Peter that no Prophesie , whether of the olde Testament for prediction or of the new , for interpretation is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any priuate explanation , but holy men in the Law forespoke , and in the Gospell expound as they are moued by the spirite . We say with Paul that the naturall man cannot perceiue the thinges of God. 1. Cor. 2. yet that phrase of his withall must be remembred alij datur interpretatio sermonum . 1. Corr. 1● . to some one particular man a thing may bee reuealed , vnknowne to the rest . 1 Cor. 14. In the exposition of Scripture it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which must carrie it Ephes. 4. 14. neither a sence cogd or numbred , that as in dicing ( from that game the woord is borrowed ) the more spots the better cast ; so in expounding , the more voyces the sounder sence . For not the Spouse onely , that is the whole Church , but & Tu quoque saith Bernard , euen one singular partie , finding that in himselfe which Dauid did , in meditationibus meis exardescit ignis , Psal. 39. 3. the assistaunce of Gods spirite in his studies , may boldly pronounce of himselfe particularly , as the church in generall Introduxit me Rex in cellam vinariam . Cant. 2. 4. euen vnto me ( as hee expounds it ) hath he reuealed the vnderstanding of his mysteries . And therefore both Canus graunts that vnicuique perse , to euerie particuler man , the doctrine of faith may bee euident , if hee haue the spirite of God in him ; and a great Lawyer of theirs thinkes that he deserues more credite , though he be vnus aliquis , hauing Scripture his witnesse , then the huge multitude of the aduerse part without that proofe . So then , grounding vppon that distinction of S. Paul ( in a case not farre different ) 2. Cor. 3. 5. a nobis , & ex nobis , if it be an exposition giuen by a priuate man a se , from himselfe , by the assistaunce of Gods spirite , and the annointing within him 1. Ioh. 2. 27. it is sound by that rule of the Apostle , The spirituall man discerneth all thinges 1. Cor. 2. and by the iudgement of a learned Cardinall , such an one his sence , concording with the text , is to be warranted against the whole current and torrent of the Fathers ; and the councell of Nice put it in practise , in preferring the sole iudgement of Paphnutius before so many of a contrary concord : but if it be ex se of his owne braine , and inuention like the spiders webb . Esa. 59. wrought out of her owne substance , we denie it , neither relie wee on it . And therefore wee say that a mans priuate exposition may be allowed , so it be not his owne priuate , that is , of his own wit and reason , without ground of Scripture . yet he confirmes his Minor by a prosyllogisme Either they builde their faith vppon their owne priuate opinion , in expounding the Scripture , or the Church , or the Fathers , or Councels , but not vpon these three , ergó vpon their owne . Aunsweare . The argument is vnsound being fallacia diuisionis ; for there is another building , which Christ calleth the Wisemans founding , not vpon men , they are but sand , but vpon the rocke which is Christ & his doctrine ; the Beraeans building , expounding scriptures by cōference of scriptures , which S. Austen calleth the rule of faith , Chrysostome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the most exact ballance to weigh the trueth ; Cyprian originem Euangelicam , fontem Dominicum , the springing fountaine that neuer failes vs , whereas the Fathers , and Councels , like the waters of Tema , especially in exposition , deceaue vs at our greatest neede : all of them hauing many errours confessed by themselues , manife●t contradictions obserued by others , diuerse ●arres in great pointes of faith , as hee might demonstrate too plainely , which would play C ham his part in discouering their nakednesse . yet we read them , note them , admire them , quoate them , profite by them , praise God for them , refuse them not in any Romish controuersie , rest not on them , but , imitate that wisedome of trauailers in Plutarke his iudgement , who passing by many goodly cities , view them & take delight in them , yet settle thēselues in one principall , where they may haue more certaine profite , with lesse daunger . For should not a people enquire at their God ? saith Esay ; whose oracle is the Scriptures . which Christ cōmaunds to search Ioh. 5. they being that more certaine word of prophesie , to which , we doe well if we attend , saith Peter : yea , by their owne cōfession , vltima resolutio fidei , the last repose of our ●aith , must not be either vppon the church , that is too generall ; nor vpon the Fathers , that is more rusticall then diuine , ( iustici ●otius quàm Theologi videamur ) for so do the Saracens vppon their maisters , the Iewes on their Rabbins , the Gentiles on their Philosophers ; much lesse vpon the Pope , that were too Pythagoricall , Ipse dixit ; & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( according to the Prouerbe ) too Poetlike , who , when in their Tragedies they are come to an exigent , which they cannot extricate , they haue a God in an engine , whome they turne downe with a deuice to make vp the matter . The last and safest refuge is therefore , which Esay prescribeth , ad legem & testimonium . Esay . 8. 20. to the law and to the testimony ; for whether shall we goe , saith Peter , here are the wordes of eternall life ? that so wee may say of the Fathers and Councels , as the Samaritans to that woman Iohn 4. Now we beleue , not because of thy saying , for wee haue heard him our selues , and know that this is indeede the Christ the Sauiour of the world . But here is the question , who shall interprete them ? S. Iohn will answeare , you neede not that any man teach you the annointing within you , teacheth you all thinges . 1. Ioh. 2. But this is priuate exposition ? nothing lesse ; a sw●rne Notary , though a priuate man , yet his hand and testimony alone , passeth for authenticall and publike : The holy Gho●t , the principall Register of the Trinitie , the hand of God wherewith the Law was grauen ; the Lordes arme wherwith the Gospell is made powerfull ; the finger of God which wrought all miracles warranted ; the penne-guide of the Euangelists ; the tongue of the Apostles ; the suggestor of trueth vnto the faithfull ; though he be , as S. Austen cals him , internus magister , and speaketh within vs , yet beeing the Spirite of trueth , and knowledge , and counsell . Es. 11. 2. his sole testimony counteruailes the authoritie of all outward and ministeriall witnesses . The Church , Councels , Fathers , are no better then the Apostles ; who confesse themselues to bee but ministers , per quos credimus . 1. Cor. 3. he is the Doctor c●i credimus . Ephes. 1. 13. and fides in infusa , by cōfession of schoolemen , which is the operation of the spirite , must preuent fidem acquisitam , which commeth by hearing , and the ministerie of men ; for Lydias hart must be opened , before shee can profite by hearing . Act. 16. and he which hath the Key of Dauid , Apoc. 3. 7. hath this prerogatiue , before them that haue the keyes of knowledge . Luc. 11. 52. and therefore the order of the holy Ghost , is by some of them obserued , in saying : The people beleeued God , and his seruant Moses . Exod. 14. 31. not Moses before , but first the Lord● , and then his minister . The principall act of faith , is assent to those things that are credibilia , saith Aquin. all which amounting the reach of mans reason naturall , it must be wrought by a supernaturall cause within , and that is Gods spirite alone ; not our selues , that is gentilisme , and denied by S. Paul. Eph. 2. not party perpale , first , our selues , and then God , that is Pelagianisme , and confuted by S. Austen ; not by a miracle seene , or men perswading , those are outward inducementes , no sufficient inforcementes ▪ and yet we say with Paule , that faith commeth by hearing Rom. 10. that is by Fathers , Councels , and Church testimony , distinguishing , as Gorram one of their own doth , by them praeparatiué , by God effectiué . & therefore no reason we should build onr faith vpon them , beeing but mediate witnesses , not immediate causes . And so wee cōclude with Aquin as in his own words , Innititur fides nostra reuelationi Apostolis & Prophetis facta , Our faith is built vpon the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles . And with Canus ( alludinge to that speeche of Quintilian for grammer ) that the Canonicall writ , is that foundation , on which vnlesse we build our faith , quicquid superstruxeris corru●t , whatsoeuer we reare will fall . And now his syllogisme is concluded , his article might haue ended , but his after wit telling him , that his reasons examined , would proue but scopae dissolutae : the article and the argument not agreeing ; that , proclayming only the Learned Protestantes Infidels : this , cōcluding that all Protestants are so , and the reason of both , because they refuse the Fathers expositions ; he now turnes Zenoes fist into a palme , and leaues his Logike for a figure in Rhetorike , which they call Correctio dicti . Campian belike hauing rubd him by the elbow , and telling him , that Some Protestantes allowe the Fathers and their expositions ; so farre forth as they agree with Gods worde , and no further ; but this is nothing but to delude the world . Aunsweare In deede Thucydides neuer spake it more truly , then we may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 herehence haue risen both the mortall spite of Rome against vs ; and also this title of Infidelitie , because we make rectum to be Iudex sui & obliqui ; for vsing the Scriptures as a fanne for the Fathers , to winnow their chaffe from their graine ; for vrging that place of the Prophet Esa 8. of all writers both auncient and moderne , if they speake not according to this rule , there is no light in them . which is no other thinge then the Fathers themselues wish , and require Tertullian reiects any mans arbitrium suum , vnlesse it bee according to the doctrine taught by Christ and preached by the Apostles ; Cyprian regardes not quid hic aut ille , but what Christ did or spake ; it was not parentum or maiorum authoritas which made S. Ierome to stoope , but onely Dei docentis imperinm . Not to speake of Nazianz. who peremptorily avoweth that our doctrine is Pythagoricall dixit dominus , without reason naturall , or Fathers a●thoritie ; but Austen cries away with our papers , codex domini pr●cedat in medium . and excellently to this present purpose els where , there are bookes , saith he , quos non licet iudicare , sed secundum quos alij iudicandi . videlicet , the bookes Canonicall , which we are not to iudge , but according to which other Doctors are to be censured ; no other thing then the sounder schoolemen doe auouch , in admitting onely that to bee the church doctrine , quae procedit ex veritate prima in sacris literis manifestata . No other , briefly , but what the Apostle inforceth , that if we receiue the witnesse of men , the witnesse of God is greater . For , let God be true and euery man a liar . Rom. 3. Neither is this a delusion of the world , but a religiō to our God , & our reuerence to his word ; an appeale from men subiect to ouersights and affection , vnto the holy spirite perfect and vnpartiall ; in making the Scriptures the touchstone of their writings ; especially hauing to deale with such Romish impostors , S. Basill cals them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , corrupting all the Fathers , and counterfayting many of them : dealing in the first , as Procrustes with his guestes in his bed , eyther hacking them off , or racking them out , as may fit their fancies ; in the other as Caligula with Iupiters idole , tooke off the Gods head , & set his owne in place thereof , citing Fathers that were neuer extant : but as the Poet saide , Nil mihi vis , & vis cuncta licere tibi : our reuoking the Fathers to Scriptures touch , is delusion , but when some of their own say , that the Fathers are no Fathers if they swa●ue from the church doctrine , that is Rome , or the Pope , as Duraeus doth ; and others , that both the church and Pope haue authoritie aboue Fathers , and against scriptures , as Canus discourseth at large ( an opinion which is the verie male-engine of all sound diuinitie ) this is plaine dealing & allowable Marrie , Saint Chrysostome is so farre from counting it a delusion , the course we take , that he thinkes it a grosse absurditie among Christians to be so warie , that in paiment of monie we will not credite men , but numero & calculo committere , tell it after them , cast the sums , number the poundes , weigh the golde ; & yet in the grand pointes of faith , we wil rest vpon the bare sentence of Fathers simplie , without due triall , especiallie hauing so perfect a touch and ballance as the word is to trie them by . And now from arguments he falles to questions , 4. in number . 1 For what meane they when they say , they will allow them so farre forth as they agree with Scripture ? Answere . If in this question hee aske what hee knowes , it is ironicall hypocrisie ; if not , it is ignorant follie : our meaning hath bin oft expressed , to be that of Saint Austens , to preferre Saint Paul himselfe before all , and aboue al Doctors ( his expositors ) not concording with the text ; that as we are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so peremptorie and selfe louing , to take vp that olde verse , Nostra haec sunt , veteres migrate coloni , vtterly to omit the fathers ; so we admit of them , as Canus himselfe doth , reade them and alledge them with reuerence , yet with choyce & iudgement ( their soundnesse making vs more learned , their corruptions more wary ) least taking the chaffe with the wheate , as the Prophet speaketh , that of Lyrinensis prooue true , Absoluuntur magist●i , condemnantur discipuli : whereas if you take the p●ecious from the vile , you shal be according to my word , saith the Lord , Ier. 15. 2 Meane they perhaps , that if the Fathers bring Scriptures to prooue any point of Religion now in controuersy , to allow that point as true ? Aunsweare . We doe , with this prouiso of S. Paule , that they do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they march in a squadron , agree without difference in that point . 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that the Scriptures they alleage be canonically warranted , regularly vnderstood , and rightly applyed . Who shall iudge of this ? the prouerbe is , Lapis aurum probat , aurum homines , The stone tries gold , and gold tries men : so the spirite of God trieth betweene the Scriptures Canonicall and Apocryphall , & the Scriptures trie the Fathers , whether their sence bee sound or adulterate . 3 If so , why reiect they then S. Austen & other Fathers , who bring Scripture to proue prayer for the dead ? yea and all controuersies almost in religion , the Fathers prooue by Scriptures when they dispute vpon them . Answere . In promptu ratio est ; our answere is readie and briefe , first to Augustine and the other fathers in this case , which was Saint Augustines to Cyprian in the like . We repute not their writinges as Canonicall , but iudge them by the Canon ; if they accorde , cum laude corum , to their praise we admit them ; if they dissent , cum pace ●orum , by their leaue wee refuse them . Which in this point is true : for Epiphanius though mightily opposite in this opinion against Aerius , cōfesseth that this is not praeceptum patris , but institutio matris , not any precept of Scripture , ( where notwithstanding we reade of solemne funerals , and honourable memorials of the dead ) but a tradition of the Fathers , and Church , which is also Tértullian his speach . Secondly , for the thing it selfe , sithence it hath often and impregnably bin proued , that the praier for the disceased , neither preuaileth with God , nor auaileth the dead ; therefore Chrysostome , howsoeuer a great patron for this point , concludes that it is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a verie stage-play & mockerie . But of this poynt more in the treatie of Purgatorie . For the last clause if it be true , wee commend it as an excellent precedent and paterne , desiring that they which so much glorie of the fathers , would therin imitate them . For this word the Scriptures is that tower of Dauid , wherin are a 1000. shields and tota armatura fortium , all weapons both defensiue and expugnatorie for all conflicts of controuersie , Cant. 4. 4. 4 Or perhaps they meane to admitt the Fathers when they alleage Scripture , but such as euery Protestant shall allow of : so it be conformable to their fancies , & fit their new coyned Gospell : and in this sence , who seeth not that euery paltrie companion will make himselfe not onely the true expositor of Christes word , but also will preferre his exposition before all auncient Fathers , when they daunce not after his pipe , and consent not with their heresies . Aunsweare . These hick scorning termes of new coyned Gospell , paltry companion , dauncing after his pipe : and those wordes also of fie●ie element , fancies , and heresies , beeing but the issues of a filthie braine , and loathsome stomacke , we returne into his throate , with the aunsweare of the Philosopher , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a fennel stalke will not make a speare , nor such wordes sound proofes ; onely they argue an impatience , with a badde cause , and a worse conscience . The substaunce of this demaund is , if a priuate man may discerne of Scriptures , whether truely or falsly alleaged by the Fathers ? an answeare hee receiues in the rifling of his Minor : if that cōtent him not , S Paule will tell him that there is discretio spirituum a gift of the holy Ghost , not tyed onely to the Church and Churchmen , but imparted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to euery man illumined by the spirite , imploring Gods direction , and conferring Scriptu●es : and therefore elswhere hee wisheth eueryman abundance in suo sensu . Rom. 14. Wherein as he giueth libertie for euerie man to haue his owne sense , so withall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to assure his conscience that this his meaning is rectified ; which certainty is wrought by prayer to God , diligent cōference , serious studies , often meditation , & the like ; all which beeing euident arguments of a spiritual man , his power is warranted , by saint Paule , to discerne al things , euen profunda Dei. Whervpon Canus inf●rs , that vnicuique praestan●● quod in se est , to euery man vsing the means before named , God giues vnderstāding sufficient in all matters of saluation : for the eare trieth wordes , as the mouth tasteth meate , saith Iob As therefore the palate , if it be well affected , can discerne perfitely of the sapours which touch it , if infected , it cannot : so , saith he , the affection of a mind well disposed , is able to distinguish a truth frō an er●our . So true is that of the Philosopher , Qualis vnusquisque erit , tale etiam iudicium proferet . Notwithstanding herein we verifie not that prouerbe to bring Saul among the ●rophets , not to make men deuoide of Gods spirit , though otherwise acutely witted , or excellent●ie learned , discerners of spirituall thinges ; wee knowe that the sha●pest Philosophers comming to these mysteries , haue fared as the Sodomites at Lots doore ; as Nazianzene speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as saint Augustin , acut● obtusi , and as Gerson obserueth , disputers in these poynts , vt caeci de coloribus : but knowing with all that the Spirit bloweth where it listeth Ioh. 3. we , with the Apostle , grant this prerogatiue of true exposition , not to euerie man pelly melly , but to euery spirituall man , whom , because it so pleaseth this Libeller , he entitles a paltry companion : but what sayth hee to his owne Melchior Canus ? who giues this power simplici mulierculae , to a silly woman , assigning his reason , quia ab vnctione docetur , because shee is annoynted with the Spirit . And here I might nd , but that you sh●ll see either the impud●ncie , or the ignorance , as I gesse it , of this mate , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the Prouerbe as Saint Paul sayd of clergie marriage , 1. Cor. 9. haue not I power to leade about a sister a wife ? so , say I , haue not we Protestants as good authoritie to refuse the fathers vnsound expositions of Scriptures , as well as the greasie shauelings among the Papists , who reiect their soundest interpretations , crossing their proiects ? The Rhemists renounce Saint Austen as an vnskilfull interpreter of super hanc petram , Math. 16 Pigh●us abiures him in the tract of o●iginall sinne . Aug. Steuc . barkes at saint ●erome in Nomb. and Deu. and Bernardinus at both of them with a triuiall prouerbe of dormitat Homerus : and Duraeus the Scot turnes off Saint Ieroms opinion of Baruch his book with a quid tum postea ? thus these transam-eyed hypocrites can spie small motes in vs , not feeling their owne beames . The summe of this article , and the drift of this rennagate is , that fides i●plicita ; to driue vs to the streights which the Philistines forced Israel vnto , the sharpning our instruments , and the fetching our weapons frō their forge : that is , to beleeue as their Church beleeues , without any triall or examination , and then wee should not bee Infidels : but that is stopped by S. Peter , who willes euerie one to bee readie in giuing an account of that fayth hee professeth , 1. Pet. 3. 10. fayth it is not which is not certaine , nor aunswere cannot bee made , but by him which is assured ; but both Aquinas and Canus conclude , that the authoritie of Doctours and Fathers make fidem probabilem , nō certam , perswade fayth , but assure it not : and thus endes this second Article . The third Article . All Protestants who are ignorant of the Greeke & Latine tongue are Infidels . Whosoeuer relieth his faith &c. Aunsweare . IT is the propertie of Sophisters , saith S. Augustine , grandi cothurno incedere , to make stately paces , & great shewes to vphold an ill cause , vel moram faciendo , if with nothing els , yet with standing vpon it : faine would this disputer with his sylly-iesticall method conclude vs all to be infidels , but he cannot find a medium to inforce that conclusion ; therefore as Ixion lying with a cloud in stead of Iuno begot a Centaure , neyther man nor beast : so his malice , breeding with a conceit , in steed of learning , brings forth Syllogismes , neyther sound nor acute , his arte beeing not sufficient to shape him a Logician , nor his subtilty sharp inough to make him a Sophister . So that his methode is , as one of their own 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 once spake in a like case , Take it among you , and this it is . Whosoeuer relieth his faith vpon the ministers credite and fidelitie is an Infidell , hath no faith at all . But all Protestantes in England ignorant of the Greeke and Hebrue tongues relie their faith vppon the ministe●s credite . Ergo All those in Englande ignoraunt of the Greeke aud Hebrue tongues h●ae no faith at all . Answere . It is verie base Logicke where the argument may bee returned vpon the replier , as the Maior here may , the Papistes beeing bound to relie their faith vpon the meere authoritie of the Church without deniall or triall , which therefore they call fidem implicitam , a faith inuolued and folded within the Church beleefe . And it is verie meane Sophistrie where there is mendatium manifestum as in the Minor is euident , and a ridiculous syllogisme , where according to the prouerbe , aliud Leucon , aliud portat illius Asinus . The propositiō to be proued being that all Protestants ignorant of the Greeke and Latine tongues are infidels , his conclusion inferring this is , that all ignoraunt of the Greeke and Hebrew tongues are infidels , as if the Latin and Hebrew were all one idiom . But bee it as it is , the Maior was cut off by mee in the precedent article , the summe whereof is , that where faith is , there cannot be infidelitie ; The Minor is there also answered by his owne assumption , for if we builde our faith vpon our owne exposition , as there hee saieth , then this is false , that we relie our faith vpon the ministers credite , which here he assumeth : and therfore a briefe answere might be that of Epimenides in S. Paule , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heretikes are euer liers ; and Mendacem Opor●et esse memorem , that prouerbe in Quintilian . But let vs view his proofes . The Maior is manifest : because a they themselues confesse that euery man may erre and doth erre , neyther haue they any warrant why the Ministers do not erre , since they constantly doe defend , that whole generall Councels , yea & the vniuersall Catholike church may erre , and hath erred . Aunsweare We deny the argumēt , the force wherof is , that they which belieue men that may erre , are Infidels . For , not to dispute with the Schoolemen , whether the Infide●itie of Heretikes or Pagans is the worse , a knowne trueth resisted , aggrauating the sinne against the conscience , more then against him which knowes it not : yet Saint Augustine makes this difference betweene an heretike , and him that beleeues an heretike . The first begets or followes an errour pertinaciously , either for primacie or glorie : but haeretico credens , is onely caried away imaginatione veritatis : so , this mistaking a falshood for a truth , is Satans mockerie , in his angelical illusion , not the parties infidelitie , in crediting a sinister perswaswasion . For learners caried away by their teachers , though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lying in ambush to seduce them , Ephes. 4. in their assent are not Infidels , the Apostle calling this leuitie , a credulitie childish , not infidelitie which is euer peeuish : and therefore Aquinas saith , that the teachers and masters of the Church , failing in any truth diuine , non praeiudicant fidei simplicium , doe no way preiudice the faith of the vnlearned , quieos rectam fidem habere credunt , who still suppose that they will teach them nothing but truth . And is it any monster of opinion either in Caluin or Luther , to say that eyther men in seuerall , or councels in assembly , or church in generall may erre ? did not Dauid in an hasty passion , and S. Paul with due premeditation say the same ? All men are lyars . For councels , they said not so much as Naz. who denied his presence at any Councel , because he saw , as he said , neither good end , nor happy issue of any of them ; nor more then their owne men , who affirme that the sentēce of any councell , is but as aliue mans testament , ambulatoria , that is , alterable at the pleasure either of Pope , or succeeding coūcell . Yea they & we confesse with S. Augustine , that religious Councels haue saluberrimam authoritatem their soueraigne authoritie , yet not absolute integritie ; because , as he elsewhere noteth , the later haue oft times controled the former ; not in circumstances accidentall , as Martin the Mar-testament in his Rhemish annotations would shake it oft , but in essentiall points & capitall , euē touching the Pope his triple crowne , two councels crossing each other , about the primacie and supremacie of the Romish Bishop ; & other for baptising of heretikes , for Priestes marriage , for worshipping of Images , for distinctions of bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha , for humane traditions , all matters of high controuersie . And as for the Church erring , the Reader may obserue how this Pamphleter , shewing himselfe more busie then intelligent , takes vpon him to epitomize those controuersies , which he cannot anatomize : for , first , we do not say , that the vniuersall Catholike Church may erre , because that parte triumphant in heauen , hath no spotte in her for manners , nor wrinckle for doctrine , but is euery way glorious and perfect . Ephes 5. ma●ry that which is heere militant on earth , being but marching on to perfectiō , Heb. 6. & going from strength to strength Psalm . 84 , cannot as yet sound out that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and triumphant song of victory against all errours , vntill shee come to that day of perfection as Salomon cals it . Prou. 4. 18 ; and Dauid calling the Saintes generationem qu●rentium Psal. 24. 6. and the Apostle vi●tores trauailers Heb. 11. 14. whose perfectiō , at the best , ius bt a iourny , ambulatoria per fidem , non per aspectum , walking by faith not by sight 2. Cor. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Phil. 3. 14. not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vers . 12 : in inquisition not acquisition , tending and attending to that absolutenesse , both for knowledge & life , but not attayning it , no not then whē they come to Paule his consummaui cursum , 2. Tim. 4. therefore argue them subiect to errours fatales , nō lethales , such as follow the nature of man continually , not such as separate from God finally ; this sore trauaile is layd vpon men to humble them therby . Secondly , if a man in this question of erring , should aske this companion ( beeing himselfe both errans and erro , a wanderer in true religion , and a runnagate from his natiue countrie ) what difference between these two positions , The generall Councels may erre , and The Church may erre ? The learneder Papistes say , that when they auerre the Church cannot erre , they meane that Church which the Schoolemen call Ecclesiam repraesentatiuam , of which our Sauiour speaketh , when he saith , Dic ecclesiae , Math. 18. viz. the Bishops and Prelates of the church , representing the whole church in generall Councels ; and so these controuersies are Identicall : for wee , saying that the Councels may erre , therein with all implie ( and that by their owne confession ) that the Churche may erre ; therefore thys Libeller , affectinge such breuitie , mighte haue spared this last clause : but bold ignonorance is like Salomon his guilt potsheard , Prou. 26. it will bewray it selfe shew it neuer so glorious . But of this controuersie more hereafter in the fift article ; As for our Ministers , neither themselues doe affect , nor any of ours defend their immunitie from possibilitie to erre , as Pighius dooth in the Apology of his Popes ; who , as Canus witnesseth , to rid Anastasius from the brand of heresie , for which he was anathematized , reuileth Gratian most a spitefully , raileth vpon the Canonists most b filthily ; and to salue Honorius his credite that way , calleth into questiō the authority of both the 6. and 7. Councels . Yea , wee say of our selues to our Auditors , as the Apostles to them of Lystra . Act. 14 , Wee are euen men subiect to the like passions that yee bee . But what of this ? are they infidels therefore which beleue vs teaching the truth ? Why ? Peter halted , and erred in the right track of the Gospell Gal. 2. Iohn would haue worshipped an Aungell twise . Apoc. 19. & 22. The Apostles & brethrē in Iudaea thought that the word of God was not to be preached to the Gentiles , Act. 11. ( all grosse errours ) is therefore the assent of the whole church to their doctrine in other pointes , though heerein taineted , infidelitie ? God forbid . In one word , to trusse vp this Maior with a short aunsweare , if this proposition be true , that the relying of a mans faith vpō the ministers credite , is infidelitie , the whole crue of Lay Papistes , is but a rout of Infidels ; for , by their owne rules , the onely and all sufficient faith of the Laitie , must bee nothing els , but praescriptum pastorum , that which their shauelinges teach and limit them , which faith thus scanteled , this fellow accomptes infidelitie , and therefore the argument rather concernes them then vs , who denie our faith to be lyable vpon the credite of any mortall man , albeit hee auowes it in his Minor , and thus would prooue it . The Minor I prooue ; for all such Protestantes ground their faith vpon the Bible trāslated into English , the which translation , they know not whether it be true or false , whether the Minister Tindall , for example , erred or no , eyther vppon ignorance , as a Broughton , one of the greatest Linguists among the Precisians affirmeth , in an Epistle dedicated to the LL. of the Councell : or vpon malice to induce the people to Protestancie , and to cause them to leaue the Catholike religion , as Gregory Martin in his discouerie most pregnantly prooueth . These errors , I say , they know not , & consequently cannot discerne a true translation from a false , and therefore must needes relie their faith vppon the silly Ministers faithlesse fidelitie , which co●uinceth that they haue no faith at all . Aunsweare . Thinke you this fellow meaneth what Moses would ? that as hee vppon zeale , to quell Ioshuaes enuie , wished that all the Lordes people could prophesy , Nomb. 11 ▪ So this mate , vpon compassion of the Laities ignorance , desireth with S. Paule , that all sortes were skillfull in the originall languages ? First that were not conuenient , as agreeing neither with that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that multi-varietie of Gods wisedome , Eph. 3. 10. in disposing his guiftes , not the same to all , nor to all alike 1. Cor. 12. but to some aboue others , as this guift of tongues : nor with the church gouernement , for orders beeing appointed in the church , some to be pastours and teachers , other to heare and learne ; the first haue receyued that key of knowledge , to open and shut , Luc. 11. such guiftes whereby they are enabled to bee both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficient to instruct , & forcible to con●ute . 2. Tim. 3. as the skill in tongues , the helpe of artes , the dexteritie of interpretation , the intelligence of mysteries , the vse and varietie of bookes , that so they may bee , as Salomon entitles them , Masters of the assemblies Eccles. 1● . all which , or most of them , God hath denied to the meany , beeing prone inough of themselues , ignorant as they are , to controll the priest , Hos. 4. and would much more , if they had this panoplie of learning . Nether is it probable , that they , whiche apply our Sauiour his Prouerbe to the commonaltie , ne margaritas porcis , making them but swine ; and thinke as basely of the Laitie , as the Phariseis , Ioh. 7. this rude people is accursed , such great patrones of Scripture-ignoraunce , should eyther haue Elias his zeale for the Lord of Hostes glory , 1. Reg. 19. or Christes compassion for the peoples want of instruction , Math. 9. or S. Peters care of the words synceritie , ● . Pet. 2 : nor that thēselues , the best of them being bound , vnder the pain of anathema , to fetch water from that cistern of the vulgar latine , which they haue canonized authenticall in their Tridentine conuenticle , would turne the people to the pure fountaines of the Greeke and Hebrew ; nothing lesse . For to a contrary purpose , as the Spartans enacted , that none should walke by night with lanterne , torch , or any light ; so haue they forbidden the scriptures to bee vulgarly translated , least the light being put into a lanterne Psal. 119 or set on a candlesticke , Math ▪ 5. to giue light to all that are in the house indefinitely , the peoples vnderstanding might prooue the discouerie of those errours , wherewith be●fore they were by their owne ignorance mizeled , or by their blinde guides miss-led : so that their drift is in this their quarrell & mislike of trāslation , not that the scriptures should keepe their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Pet. 2. without mixture or blēding ; but that they might haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an vncouth , and vnperfect voyce without vnderstanding , 1. Corint . 14. For would they in sooth , the vulgar sort should haue knowledge ? meanes they must prescribe , it being not bonum innatum , but seminatum saith Bernar : because faith cometh by hearing , Rom. 10. ( those immediate knowledges of reuelation and prophesy , the one a sodaine infusion , the other a successiue instinct , being long since antiquated ) the meanes therfore is , saith Aquinas , either a mans owne studie and industry , Eccles. 1. 13. which knowledge he calleth Scientia , or other mens labor in preaching , and that hee cals doctrina , 1. Cor. 14. 6. to the attayning whereof there are required , saith he else-where , both vis mentalis , the vigour of the mind , which is vnderstanding ; and corporalis , the aptitude of the body , which are the sences , two in number , of the eare and the eye , which both Philosophers , and diuines call sensus disciplinarios , beecause knowledge accreweth vnto men ether by hearing or reading . In which case God hath excellently prouided to his people , for the eare viuam vocem , 1. Cor. 14. 10 ▪ the preacher to instruct , for how can they heare without a preacher ? Rom. 10. 14. & for the eye viuum sermonem , Heb. 4. 12. written for our learning , Rom. 15. 4. which all promiscuously are enioyned to read , both to accomplish his desire , who would that all men should be saued , and come to the knowledge of his trueth . 1. Tim. 2. 4 & for the atchiuing our owne happinesse , which then is greatest , when wee are likest to him ; which likenesse saith Basil without knowledge is not effected , nor knowledge without doctrine , nor doctrine without speech , nor speech without his partes , woordes , and syllables ; so that all are commaunded , if it be possibel , to reade , if not , to heare : Now then the old rule holding true , Oportet discentem credere , the learner must beleeue , here ariseth the question , what if his doctrine bee vnsound ? a remedy is prescribed by Esay his direction , by the Beraeans practise Act. 17. trie it by the word written : but that perchance is vntruely trāslated , either through ignorance or malice , and so the vnlearned may be deceaued ? doth a Papist make this supposition , & Tute Lepus es ? who , presenting to the idiotes the Bible in a straunge tongue , neither mooue the eare , nor outward sence , vnlesse it bee with ratling in the aire , 1. Cor. 14. 8. nor affect the vnderstanding , leauing it without fruite , vers . 14 but why should ignoraunce or malice bee more feared in our English editions , or rather preiudice our peoples assent thereunto , then either the Greeke translation of the 70. interpreters , so diuinely magnified especially by S. Augustine and Epiphanius : or those of Aquila , Symmachus , Theodotion , so oft cited by S. Ierome , and a relique whereof yet remaines in the Romish bibles ; and that of Lucian the martyr in the Church of Antioch remembred by Athanasius . Or if some of them , which Theodoretus affirmeth , were translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , peruersely and guilefullye , yet the vulgar translation , the authour whereof is vncertaine , and S. Ieromes both into the Latine and into the a Sclauonian language ; as also that of Vlphilas into the Gottish tongue , and Chrysostomes into the Armenian , besides that famous worke of Origen his exaplus , are as lyable to these imputations ; the most of these interpretors being tainted with some errours , and therefore , by this Pamphl●tors rule , their translations are subiect either to ignorance or malice , as well as ours : or admit we , that they were more exquisite in the tongues then we , yet , not to speake of the Brittish translations , & English also in the time of Beda , what should hinder Tindals , or the Geneua translation into the English , not to deserue as much credite with our Laitie , as that Rhemish ridiculous version into the same idiome , with their Catholike idiots ? his aunsweare is with a witnesse , because Broughton auoucheth ignoraunce , and Gregory Martin findeth malice in our vernaculer translations . Accipit & glebam erro according to the prouerb , he is neere driuen that hath no better choise . For want of Kinges and Queenes , he trumps about with the short-skirts a Precision and a Papist , mali thripes mali ipes , saith Diogenian , a woorthy couple , the one growne mad with his selfe-louing phrensy , the other possessed with a Popish lunacie , both of them runnagates from their naturall countrey . For that worthy martyr , and learned man Tindall , in this respect , we say , as some of theirs of S. Bernard , non vidi● omnia : and he of himselfe to his readers , as S. Origen in the like , Medicente quod sentio , I speak what I think , vos decernite , doe you iudge and examine , whether it be right or no : and for all our translations we obtrude them not vppon the church , as the Trentish councell doth that vulgar edition , as scripture authentike as Sybyllaes leaues , not any time to bee examined , not any part to be disauowed ( both these argumentes of ignorance and malice , for Lex , quae probari se non vult , suspecta est , sayth Tertullian . ) nor make them as Sixtus V. the Pope his Vatican edition 89. vinculum pacis , fidei vnitatem , charitatis nexum &c. the bond of peace , the vnitie of fayth , the knotte of loue , the rule of trueth , the loadstone in errours , the irrefragable compounder of controuersies . Onelye wee , by them doe cracke the shell ▪ that the kernell may lie open to the sight , & taste of any , that haue appetite thereunto . Indeede Gregory Martin hath , in his Pharisaicall discouerie , compassed sea and land , trauersed much grounde mounted himselfe vppon euery molehill , ransackt all corners , to descry our translatours ignorance and malice , and when all is doone , it is but the suruay of dronken zebull , Iud. 9. a shadow of moūtaines for a band of souldiers : like the African tumult about S. Ieromes escape , ●edera for cucurbita Iona. 4. so that any Collatour indifferent and learned in the Originals , comparing ours with theirs , wil borrow Moses his speech , and apply it more truely then Bellarmin doth , Their editions are not like ours , euen our enemies beeinge iudges . For not to speake of SS . Ierome , Augustine , and Hilary , who complayned of many wantes and escapes in that translation , called by some of thē a vulgata , by others b Itala , by Gregory vetus : euē among themselues a Pagnine for the olde , b Budaeus for the new , c Andradius , and d Arias Montanus for both the testamentes , haue acknowledged and found therein , not onely wordes , but sententiam etiam , euen the right sense ▪ & meaning of the holy Ghost to be peruerted . yea Sixtus aboue named , in his preface prefixed before his Bible , intituled ad perpetuam rei memoriam , saith that , before his Vatican edition , which was but anno 1589. this vete of theirs , their vulgar translation had prooued schismatis & haeresis inductio , dubitationum fluctus , inuolutio quaestionum , discordiarum seges , & pia●um mentium implicatio , the occasion of heresies , the sea of dou●tes , the Labyrinth of questions , the seede of contentions , and a snare for religious minds . So then this imputation scommaticall of faithlesse fidelitie , fastened vpon our translatours by this Libeller , may , in their owne mens censure , bee branded vppon themselues , and this whole argument returned vpon this articler , hâc formâ Whosoeuer relieth his faith vpon a corrupt and vncertaine edition , is an Infidell . But all Papistes are bound to relie their faith vpon a corrupt edition . ergô All Papistes are Infidels , haue no faith at all . And this for his third Article . The Fourth Article . The Protestantes know not what they beleeue . The Protestantes know not what they beleeue , nor why they beleeue . Aunsweare . THe white of an egge , without salt , is flash , and vnsauery , sayth Iob , and malice without arte , is vnarmed bitternesse , and a distempered folly : and therefore as those iangling rudesbies , titular Doctors in S. Paules time , knew not what they spake , nor whereof they affirmed ; so saith Ierō . Heretikes cum disputare nesciant , tamen litigare non desinunt , though they cannot reason , yet they will wrangle , and for want of Logicke , they will chop Logicke . His syllogismes are wasted , now hee comes to profound diuisions of why , and what , and the Protestantes ignorance in both , which he inforceth by a double reuiew . That they know not why they beleeue , I haue shewed before , For that the ground of their belefe , i● not the authoritie of the Sc●ipture , of Councels , of Doctours , nor of the Church , but their owne fancie . Aunsweare . Both these reuiewes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are returned with a remaund semblable , the first , where he hath shewed it , I haue aunsweared , and there let him search it : the second , with Nazian . that Tautology is no meanes of breuitie , a which hee so affectes in pretence , and request . But what diuinitie is this , to call a Christians beliefe to a why ? vid●licet , to calculate the mysteries of faith by proofe of reason , a thing countercheckt by all the Fathers , especially Clement Alex. in generall and particularly by Eusebius in the Antemonistes , who weighed all the articles of Fa●th by Logicall Syllogismes . For some , which haue faith , saith S. Augustine , haue not copiam defendendi fidem , not the skill to apologize their faith , or render reason thereof ; and hee which hath this skill , doctior est , non fidelior , is the greater clerke , not the ●ounder Christian : & therfore his rule elsewher is , not to discusse the diuine mysteries , but to beleeue them ; non rationem requirere , sed fidem simpliciter exhibere . And the Apostle S. Peter , when he wils vs to be ready to satisfie euery man poscenti rationem des●e , that asketh a reason of our hope , meaneth , that neither we should be ashamed of our faith in our publike confession , nor to shame it by a depraued conuersation . For to giue a reason of matters of faith is not possible , they beeing supernaturall , and mans reason in that knowledge but a beast , saith Ieremy . neyther , were it so , is it a faculty generall , but sapientum tantum saith Aquinas . And they which desire , by questiōs ; to be resolued in the deepe mysteries of faith , doe it not as An●elme speaketh , vt per rationem ad fidem acceda●t , that by reasons or resolutions , they might be induced to beleeue , sed vt ●orum , qu● credunt , ontemplatione delectentur . For articles of faith , are the obiectes of admi●ing contemplation , not of Logicall demonstration , saith Basil. yet to follow this fellow his absurde methode , wee can shew him a t●iple why , three reasons of our beliefe , the cause why , the meanes why , and the ende why : the procatarcticall , or first moouing cause , the grace and power of the spirite inclining our hartes to beleeue : the demiurgical , or instrumentall meanes , the word of God read or preached . the teleioticall or finall cause eternall life , which wee by faith expect ; the first , for this purpose called spiritus fidei , 2. Cor. 4. 13. the second , verbum fidei , 1. Tim. 4. 6. the last , finis fidei . 1. Pet. 1. 9. so then , the Protestants why , is that which the Schoolemen call , sufficiens inducti●um , not onely doctrina diuina , the holy scripture , sed quod plus est , saith Aquinas , interior instinctus dei inuitantis , the inward inspiration , & motiō of the spirite . Let the case be in that article of our belefe , the incarnatiō of Christ , demand of a Christiā why he belieues this , his answere wil be , because the Scripture recordes it but reply vpon him , why he beleeues the Scripture ? his reason exceedes a why , it is the finger of God opening his hart ; els , when S. Peter handeled those great mysteries in his sermon , Act. 2. why had some of them compunctionem spiritus , vers . ●7 . the pricking of the spirite , whereby their hartes were moued to beleeue ? but others of them , spiritum compunctionis Rom. 11. their hartes pricking against the spirite , resisting it partly by doubting vers . 12. partly by scoffinge vers . 13. the same Scripture opened to thē all , but the same spirite , not working alike in all . If any aske a why of this beliefe ? S. Paule will crie out , not aunsweare , O altitudo . Rom. 11. non est disputationis , sed stuporis , saith Ambrose , it is a matter of amazemēt , not of argument . And therfore the scholemen define credere , to be an acte of the vnderstanding , assenting to the diuine trueth , ex imperio voluntat is , a deo motae , per gratiam , at the commaund of the will , so mooued by the grace and spirite of God : a resemblance familiar will make this euident . There are in euery man three parts . 1. Thes. 5. 23. flesh soule , and spirite , or rather three men in one man , 1. Cor. 2. the carnall , naturall , & the spirituall man ; and each of these hath his seuerall eye . that Chrystalline humor for the body , the reason for the soule , and faith for the spirite . Now , then as the eie of the body , thogh it be the cādle of the body Math. 622. yet the apple in the eie , is the eie of that eie , saith Philo ; and as the eie of the minde is reason , Eccles. 2. 14. yet the eie of that eie , is the vnderstandinge , sayth Aquinas : so the eie of the part regenerate , is faith , but the eie of that eie , is the spirite of God , for in his lighte , doe wee see light , Psal. 36. 9. therefore as in the bodily sight , shine the Sunne neuer so glorious , be the aire neuer so cleere , and the medium neuer so transparent , yet if the apple in the eie be vnsound , the sight will faile , and deceiue ( for he that lookes through a miste , saith Basil , seeth a misse ) so be the media of our beliefe , optimé disposita , the Scripture perspicuous , the church testimonie euidēt , the torrent of Fathers euery way concurrent , the decrees of Councels vnalterably constant ; yet if the spirite of God , qui & sensum dat , & assensum mouet , saith Bernar. worke not vpon the wil forcing the assent thereto , all the other are in vaine . Wherefore , if wee bee asked why we beleeue ? our aunsweare is , that we ascribe the cause to Gods inspiration , and the meanes , to the words ministration . As for this Cuckow-like Palinodie of Councels , Doctours , and Church , beeing the fa-burden of euery article hetherto , it argueth the barrennesse of his conceite , and the badnesse of his cause , but deserues no other aunsweare then hee hath receiued before . And now wee must come to his second profunditie , of what we beleeue . And that they knowe not what they beleeue is manifest , beecause they haue no rule , wherby to know what is matter of faith , and what is not . Some will limit their beleefe to theire Creed , saying , that nothing ought to be beleued which is not in the Apostles Creede : But then I would demande of them whether wee ought to beeleeue that the Scripture is the word of God ? that Baptisme is a Sacrament ? that in the Eucharist is the bodie of Christ by faith ? to what article should these be reduced , seeing they are not contained in the Creede ? or how shall wee know infallibly , how these be matters of faith , since they are not contained in the Creede ? Aunsweare . Were the Law of India and Persiagenerally infortiat , that he which was thrise taken in a lie , might be perpetually silēced , this fourth article had perished in the Libellers lunges , the three former beeing shamelesly false : but sithence he is of his nature , whome the poet describes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that hath neither grace to speake trueth , nor power to holde in his chatt ; Artoxerxes law will fitte him better , as hee punished a liar with fastening three nailes into his tounge , so to choke him with three argumentes conuincing him of manifest vntrueth , in saying that it is manifest we haue no rule to know what is matter of faith . First , the holy Ghost praescript , haec scriptasunt vt credamus , Ioh. 20. Secondly , our writers indesinent challenge prouoking , with the Prophet Esa. 8 , ad legem & testimonium . Thirdly , their owne continuall clamours , crying out vppon vs , for making the Scripture alone , the rule of life & beliefe , & the sole iudge in cōtrouersies . Therfore let him know , that we know our selues to bee citizens , subiect to a prince , by whose law we are directed , which as the great Philosopher in humane policie , we , with Tertullian , call regulam veritatis , the 〈◊〉 of trueth ; with Cyprian , regulam doctrin●●um , the rule of all learning ; with Basil , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the rule of right ; with Aquinas regulā intellectus nostri , the rule of our vnderstāding ; with Carthusian regulā credendorum & agendorum , the rule of contemplation and action . For doctrine , wee say with Esay , If any speake not according to this rule , it is , beecause there is no light in them ; for manners , with S. Paul , as many as walke after this rule , peace be vpō them , and mercy : and so conclude with Cyrill , that our faith is not deriued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 frō the inuention of man ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but from the demōstration of Gods writ . It is their dunsticall glossary that prescribeth , in the discord of the foure Doctours , to take Augustins rule in disputationibus ; Ieromes in translationibus ; Gregories immoralibus ; forgetting S. Ambrose , and therfore Ambrosius Spiera ( for names sake ) preferre his rule in iudicijs . But we say with S. Augustine , Sacra Scriptura doctrinae nostrae regulam figit , the holy Scripture frames the rule for our faith and profession . This is their torment , that we will not say to their Pope in sooth , which S. Augustine spake to Faustus the Manichee in a scoffe , ergo tu es regula veritatis ; and so acknowledge his definitiue to be the why and what ; the forme and matter , the rule and frame of our faith and beliefe . That which followeth of confining our beleefe to the Creede , and accompting all other thinges extrauagant from faith , not combined within the Apostles Symbole , is this Tatlers fancie , not our practise . For , first wee doubt not , but it is an Apostolicall collection , agreeing with , and deriued from their doctrine , yet resolue not that it was the Apostles frame . Secondly , wee acknowledge it Canonlike , but not Canonicall , squared according to that rule the holy Scriptures , but not the rule it selfe . Thirdly , we vse it , being Christs souldiers , as the Romanes their Tessera communis in warres , as a short placard , wherin is comprehended the summe of our profession , for that cause called , as S. Austen writeth , Symbolum , either in respect of the Authors , arguing their vnitie in faith , euery one casting in his seuerall share ; or of vs , it being the Christians Shibboleth distinguishing Gilead from Ephraim , a true trained souldiour from a rude nouice , or counterfaite intruder , or open pagan . And , giue , that wee made it either the Limitation of our faith , it is no more then the Fathers haue done ; Ambrose calles it S. Peters key , strong inough to open and shut the gates of heauen . Austen cals it certam regulam fidei , an vnfallible rule of faith . And so doth Leo in his sermons de passione . or , if wee call it the perfection of all faith , it is no other then the same Augustine hath done , who intitles it the abridgement of both testaments totum continens com pendio breuitatis ; and els where comprehensionem fidei nostrae & perfectionē , the simplicitie thereof , helping the rudenesse ; the shortnesse , assisting the memory ; the fulnesse , perfecting the doctrine of the professours : nor then S. Hierome , who accomptes it the absolute breuiary Christiani dogmatis ; no more then the Schoolemen who call it summam credendorum , containing in it the whole matter of faith , vel explicitè vel implicit , éeither directly , or respectiuely ; for , whatsoeuer thinges are credenda , saith Aquinas , are referred either ad esse naturae , and so respecte the whole story of the creation , and consequently the articles of the three persons , each of them hauing an hand in that great worke , as Basil elegantly obserueth : or ad esse gratiae , which the Creede presentes vnto vs in the articles of our redemption : or ad esse gloriae , which we expect by beleeuing the bodies resurrection , and the eternitie of life . Briefly , our faith resting vpon that double couenant of God vnto his chosen , the first , I will bee thy God , is dilated in the former and larger part of the Creede , teaching his omnipotency in the creation ; his mercy in our redemption by his Sonne ; and the assistance of the holy spirite : the other , and they shall be my people , in the last part , from the Catholike church vnto the ende . And yet for all these glorious prerogatiues of this Apostolicall abstract , none of our writers haue made it the non vltrá of our faith , or the listes of our beleefe . But did wee so , what followes ? an horrible sacriledge insues , and threefold , that is , There is no article to make vs beleeue the Scripture to be Gods woord . that is fals , for beleuing in God the Father , we acknowledge both his essence , & his prouidence ; in esse diuino , saith Aquine , are included all those properties which wee beleue to be in God eternally , wheron dependeth vita beatitudinis , and amongst them his trueth : infide prouidentiae , all those thinges are comprised , which he hath temporally dispensed for mans saluation , which leade him in via beatitudinis , among these is the dispensation of his woord , which in our Creede wee acknowledge to be his , in professing him to be a God , and therfore true , for God is not as man , that hee can lie . Nomb. 23 but himselfe hath testified , 1. of the law , that it was the writing of his own finger , Exo. 32. 2. of all the Prophets , as he said to Moyses os tuum sed verba mea , their mouth but his wordes Exod. 4. for no prophecie is of priuate motion 2. Pet. 1. 3. of the whole Scripture , that euery addition , or substraction is hie treason against his maiestie , as counterfaiting his Pattents Apoc. 22. 18. and therefore the Fathers expound the first Credo , Deum for the vnitie of essence ; Deo , for the veritie of his woord : and in Deum , for the assurance of his loue . Secondly , the Creede proues not Baptisme to be a Sacrament , yea but Augustin is of opinion , that whatsoeuer concernes omne Sacramentum suscipiendum , is therein contained . S. Hierome thinkes , that euen in that one article of the resurrection of the flesh , omne Sacramentum Christiani dogmatis concluditur● and in trueth the Sacramentes are , as I may so speake , a reall Creede , acting that which the other enacteth , performing in deede , which in the Symbole we professe in word , and are rather seales , then articles of faith . For Baptisme , whether by immersion or aspersion , exemplifieth Christes death , & confirmes that article of remission of sins ; and the Eucharist presenteth the effusion of his bloud , ratifieng that article of his death and passion . Summarily , for Baptisme , S. Augustine concludes , omne Sacramentum Baptismi in hoc constat , vt credamus resurrectionem corporum & remissionem peccatorum nobis a Deo pr●estanda , and so it is reduced to two articles . But whether will we reduce , or how can we proue , by the Creede , the presence of Christ by faith in the Eucharist ● Surely much more easily , then they which defend his bodily carnall presence ; for this crosseth both the whole Creede , beecause corporall presence must needes bee visible and palpable Luc. 24. 39 , and so the obiect of the eie , not of faith ( for fides est eo●um quae non vides ) and , speciallyo , ne principall article of his ascent into heauen , there ●itting at the right hand of his father . Wherefore S. Bernard , as they write , tooke another course , for when one of his monkes could not bee perswaded either by the Creede or the word , that Christes body should be in the Eucharist really , and carnally , so forbore a long space the communion ; at last the good Abbot cals him , and I charge thee , quoth hee , vpon vertue of thy sworne obedience , vt mea fide vadas & communices . and thus , not the Apostles Creede , but S. Bern. faith must inforce that presence . As for the Sacramentall presence by faith , it may be reduced to all those articles which acknowledge Christ in his two formes , as Paule speaketh ; for he willeth vs so ofte as wee do celebrate , to doe it in remembraunce of him , videlicet , of him , in the forme of a seruant , incarnate , iudged , crucified , & dead : and of him , in the forme of God , in assurance of his comming to iudge both quick and deade . Lastly , for the Creede it selfe , we are no otherwise tied vnto it , then the Fathers , who vsed other as well as this , both the Nicene , which is called Symbolum patrū , & Athanasius Creede more large thē that , and S. Basils in words differing from them all . We vse it as the epitome of our profession , not as the perfect rule of faith , which title we appropriate to the written word onely , by which all mattere of faith are to be tried and squared , as the quadrant stones of Salomons building 1. Reg 6 ; and conclude with Eusebius , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 either the leauing of this rule ; or abusing it with Hosius , as a Lesbian leaden rule , hath caused so many ruinous and deformed heapes , such heresies and schismes in the church of God. But now doubting to preuaile this way , he shewes how this rule is cut short by fiue inches . Others deny some articles of their Crede also ; for the Protestantes denie three articles of our Creede , and the Puritans fiue . Aunsweare . This diuision of Protestantes and Puritans , as it argueth the bitternesse of his malice ; so it maketh good that parable of our Sauiour , that Gods fielde wi●l haue both tares and wheate Math. 13 ; that position of ours , the church militant hath her rebellious members , as the perfectest bodie noxious humours ; that speech of S. Bernard , velis nolis habitabit intra fines tuos Iebusoeus , the ●ebusite will dwell in the land , to be thornes in our sides , and prickes in our eies Nomb. 33. yet this is our comfort , that we may truely say with S. Ierome , Ostendimus tales discipulos , non fecimus . But this slanderous challenge , of our denying some articles of the Creede , reueales a conscience sea●ed with impudency , and a tongue set on fire with hell , as Iames speaketh . What true Protestantes deny hath hetherto and shall bee still maintained against the whole rout of Pseudocatholikes : as for the Puritans , if hee meane such as haue made either Corah his separation from vs , in contempt of authoritie : or a Pharisaicall secession in maiorem puritatis erenium , as Bernard speaketh , in opinion of greater integritie ; saying in the spirite of pride , Stand a part , for I am holier then thou , Esa ▪ 65. Iob his builders in desolate places Iob 15. taking themselues to be the oracles of wisedome Prou. 26. as if the word of God had come onely to them , or should proceede from them alone 1. Cor. 14 such as the Puritano-papist● , Loyala his schollers , among them , the Iesuites , yesterdaies vpstartes , who preferre themselues both for diuinitie and puritie , farre aboue all the Romish clergie , regular & secular ; for these , I say , as the parents of the blinde man Ioh. 9. aetatem habent , let them speake for themselues ; I meane not to be their aduocate yet as the Poet said , Improbé facit , qui in alieno libro ingeniosus est , it is a leaud part to miscontrue mens writings , a diuelish thing to belie them : but were it so ? I doubt not , but that wee haue as good authoritie to abridge the Creede of some articles , as any of their sideto enlarge it with more ; which to be lawfull , not only their schoolemen dispute , and conclude that the Pope , de iure , may doe it , but , de facto , they haue doone it , one of their Popes , hauing framed a third article of Transubstantiation annexuit Symbolo saith Alphōsus , hath foisted it into the Creede . And now let vs see what articles we denie . 1 The first is the Catholike church , Credo Ecclesiam sanctam Catholicam , I beeleeue the holy Catholike church , the which in verie deede they do not beeleeue . Aunsweare Which of the Protestantes beleeue it not ? I am assured that we all professe there is a Catholike church of Christ , not a Platonicall vtopia , no where extant , but a company of Gods chosen euery where scattered ; not a Cyclopicall anarchy , which the Poet describes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; but as an absolute monarchy in respect of one head , Christ ; so a policie Aristocraticall administred by select gouernours : no pompous synagogue aspectable , in grosse , to mortall eies , because God onely knoweth all that are his , 2. Tim. 2. for he is not a lew , which is one outward Rom. 2. neither are all Israell , which are of Israell , Rom. 9 ; not as Noahs familie with a Shem and a Cham , or as his Arke with a crow and a doue , ( though this bee true in visible particular churches , where are some straglers not yet called , some weakelinges not fully confirmed ; some hypocrites not easely discerned ; some wicked ones not to bee auoided ) but as Clem. Alex. defines it , au elect company into which are gathered the faithfull and iust , predestinate by God , beefore the worldes creation ; for this cause called an holy assembly , while millitant on earth , holy in affection ; when triumphant in heauen , holy in perfection ; in both states holy by Christes imputation . This is the harmony of our profession , and the true sence of this article : which euen Aquine their Angelicall doctor con●●meth , concluding that infidels are not members of the Catholike church , whereof Christ is the head , in acte , but inpossibilitie ; no● so neither , except they be predestinate to life , before the worlds foundation : and all their Catechistes insinuate so much , in making the Catholike church , and the communion of saintes all one article : But heare his reason of our deniall . Because Catholike is vniuersall ( a profound note ) & so the Church of Christ which we are bound to beleeue , must bee vniuersall for all a time comprehending all ages , and b vniuersall for c place , comprehending all nations : but that Church which the Protestantes beleeue was interrupted , all the ages beetwixt the Apostles and Luther , which was 1400. yeares , or , in very deede was neuer seene before Luthers dayes , therefore that Church they beleeue cannot be Catholike . Aunsweare . A fit aunsweare to this , would cause the reader crie out , with that prouerb , Date mihi peluim , this tedious iteration rather prouoking a vomit , then edging the appetite ; it being the full scope of his first article , where he receiued his aunsweare : therfore , since he requestes breuitie , heere onely obserue in this phrase ( interrupted ) either his blasphemous vntrueth , if he meane of the existence of the Catholike church , which wee beleue to bee perpetuall ; for the head neuer wanted his bodie , nor the Sunne his beames , nor the bridegroome his spouse , nor Christ his church ; but , as Irenaeus obserueth ab initio assistens plasmati suo filius , reuelat omnibus patrem ; it begunne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at the first foundation , and shall not ende 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at the finall dissolution of the worlde . The church beefore Christ incarnate , and this since he was glorified , being one & the same cōsanguinitate doctrinae saith Tertullian : or els his Caiphas-like veritie , speaking the trueth against his will , if hee meane that the glorious conspicuitie , or sincere professiō of the Catholike church was of long interrupted ; for that is true , in the olde testament by the worldes deluge the Aegyptian bondage , the Idole groues , and the Babilonish captiuitie : in the new , at the aduent of Christ by the worlds blindnesse , the Phariseis pride , the Iewes obstinacie , and the deuils malice ; after his ascent , by that threefold persecution , which S. Augustine mentioneth , violent by tyrantes , fraudulent by hypocrites and heretikes , & both those together after the eleuation of Antichrist . But if interrupted after Christ and his Apostles , then was it begun by him , and continued by them , and that is it which Cyprian said , & we oft repeate , we neither seeke , nor reke what was doone ante nos before vs , but what he commands to be done , which was ante omnia , beefore all times , and aboue all men ; therfore that church which had the foūdation by Christ , the source by the Prophets and Apostles , the frame and iointes by the Scriptures , we beleeue in that article to bee continually Catholike , alwayes extant , not alwayes radiant ; euery where dispersed , elsewhere distressed . pergit nebulo still he goes on . Neither is it vniuersall in place beeing contayned within the narrow bounds of England , which is accompted but as a corner of the world . For the Lutherans in Germany , the Hugonots in Fra●nce , and the Guiues in Flaunders detest there religiō , almost , as much as the Catholikes , neither will they ioine issue with thē in diuers especiall poīts . And therefore the Protestants church which they beeleeue can no more bee Catholike and vniuersall , thē England the vniuersall world ; or Kēt the Kingdom of England , or a pruned bough a wheate tree ; or a dead finger , a man ; or a rotten tooth , the whole head . Aunsweare . Medusaes ill fauoured countenance turned men into stones , and such brasen-faced ignorance , would make any man astonished . Who euer said , ( except the Romane proctors , for their Babylon ) that a particular congregation was the Catholike church ? we haue cried it at the crosse , and recorded it in our bookes , that as the golden candlesticke was multiplied into many braunches Exod. 25 , and Aarons rod burgened into many blossomes Nomb. 17. so Christes church was parceled into many particuler churches , among which , this of England to the fretting despight of Romish rennagates , the famous renowne of our Soueraigne , and the eternall glory of his name , God hath selected , as among all flowers , the Lilly ; among all fowles the Doue ; of all trees , the Cedar ; of all the nations , Iudea ; of all the mountaines , this Zion , to be a sanctuarie for his chosen , an oracle for his woord , an habitation for himselfe : howsoeuer this viperous scorner in contempt calles it , a corner of the world ; a nooke it is in deede , but such an one as Aegina to Athens , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the eiesore thereof ; so is this to Rome , the hartsoare thereof . Why ? Bethleem was the smallest among the thousands of I●dah , Mich. 5. yet the sonne of righteousnes sprong thēce and the glorious starre directed thether , Math. 2. The Iewes an handfull in comparison of the other nations , and yet in Iury was God knowne , his name was great in Israell , Psal. 76. a diamond of true lustre though set in brasse , is of more accompt & value , then a counterfaite byrall , or a Portingall perle fastened in golde . Wee feare not the Lions paw , the Spanish crueltie ; much lesse the scratch of a strumpet , the Libellers of Rome ; the braine of a Fox , the schismes of hypocrites wee contemne . As for this visible church of ours , we acc●mpt it as the arke of Gods presence , not beleeue it as an article of our faith ; it is the Romish opinion , and it was well placed among the extrauagantes , as a position extrauagant from all learning , reason , and diuinitie , that a particular Synagogue should be the Catholike church , that a filthy sincke should be the holy church , yet such a citie is Rome , and such is the diuinitie of the Popish clergie ; and therefore wee conclude this article with a Syllogisme inuerted vpon this Libeller , being his owne . Whosoeuer beleueth a particular church to be the Catholike denyeth that article . But the Papistes avow and beleeue Rome to be the Church . ergò The Papistes denie that article . But that I promised , at his request , to aunswere seriously , I might play with him about his wheate tree , and aske him where he was borne ; and how corne growes ? I haue read in S. Basil , that coales readie burnt , haue growne vpon trees , but that corne hath bulkt into a stemme , and branched out into armes ( non me pudet fateri nescire , quod nesciam ) I neuer heard or read : but let his folly passe , we will follow him to the second article denied , as hee saith , by vs. 2 The second article is the Communion of Saintes , the which they deny many waies : First by not beleeuing that Christ hath instituted seuen Sacraments , wherein the Saintes of his church communicate . Aunsweare . The Protestantes denie that Christ instituted seauen Sacraments , ergó They denie the Communion of Saintes . The argument is denied , as beeing arena sine calce , an in●erence without any coherence , there beeing no semblable relation betweene fiue of those Sacramentes , and this article of the C●eede . Yet the Anabaptistes reason more properly , who beecause we detest their Platonicall communitie , as accompting Meum & Tuum to be more consonant to Gods law , and all Christian policie , do thereby inferre , that wee deny the Communion of Saintes . But to this purpose , for the article we beleue and confesse , that among the saintes on earth , though distant in place , or different in condition , or aliens by nation , there is an vnitie in religion , an vnanimitie in affection , a sympathie in affliction , a mutuall charitie for reliefe each of other , either comforting the mind if vexed , or supplying the wantes if distressed , or supporting the weakenesse if vnsetled , or reforming the ignorance if blinded , or praying for deliueraunce if oppressed ; falsifying that Heathenish and vncharitable prouerbe , Amici qui degunt procul non sunt amici : This is our faith , without breach whereof , notwithstanding , we denie seauen sacramentes to bee Christes ordinaunce If he meane of them which denie al the seanen he should say somewhat , but not touch vs , who acknowledge two , which ratifie this article most , Baptisme , an initiation or entrāce into this Communion , and the Lordes Supper which by an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and speciall priuiledge is intituled by S. Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the communion . But if the force of this argument lie in the septenarie nomber , as it seemeth , by the Tridenrine anathema , it must , then all the auncient fathers , & some of their owne doctors , are as obnoxious to this imputation of denying this article , as we . The obiections by our men , out of Iustine Tertullian , and Augustine in diuers places , are triuiall and stale , but especially out of Ambrose , who of purpose writing a treatise of the Sacramentes , ●eckons but two . Isidore and Gregory excede not three , As for the Sacrament of Matrimonie , grounded vpon an ignorant translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ephes. 5. Canus citeth the infinite differences , and digladiations of the schoole doctors there about . & Lombard , the first hammerer of this seuen folde shield , by a close consequent , denieth it to be a sacrament , because it conferreth not grace , as all Sacraments must doe by their diuinitie . Erasmus constantly affirmeth that in S. Ieromes time , it was accompted no sacrament . Durandus minceth it with an vnivocé and stricté , saying that it is a sacrament after the larger size , not properly . But Alexander Alensis , the ancientst schole man of credite , concludeth , that Christ instituted but two sacramentes , which hee proueth both by Christs side pierced , out of which issued water and bloud : and also by that triple testimonie agreeing in one , the spirit , water , and bloud ; reliqua per ministros Ecclesiae ordinata , the rest were the inuentions , or additions of church gouernours . And Petrus a Soto cōfesseth that the elementes , woordes , and effectes of foure sacramentes , cannot be proued by the scripture , Compendium Theologiae is forced to say , that the element ( which in all sacraments is an externall substance and materiall ) is the action and humiliation of the partie penitent , and the woord adioyned to make it a full Sacramente , is the Priestes absolution . S. Bernard puts in the Maundie of Christ for a Sacrament , and so makes eight , others , and aboue the rest . Dionys. Areopag . leaues out matrimonie , and so finds but sixe . But will you see two foxes tied by the tailes , and their heades turned counter ? this hood winckt libeller saith , wee denie seauen , but Duraeus the Schottish champion for Campian , findes that Caluin , Beza , and Melancthon agree vpon the full nomber of seauen : both alike true , for we denie but fiue , hauing the authoritie , and precedent of 500. yeares but for two onely , and none of ours euer allowed of the whole seauen . And therefore I conclude this point , first , that if our denial of iust seauen , bee a blot to that article , wee are not the first , the Fathers , after the Scriptures , directing vs , and ●ounder schoole-men of their owne agreeing with vs. Secondly , when he shall bring for those fiue pseudo-sacramentes , either the institution of Christ , to authorize them , or any commaundement to vse them , or any promise of remission annexed to them , or any element by God appointed for them , we will with reuerence embrace them , but their greatest clarkes hauing failed heerein , wee may not expect it at the hands of this sneaking atomite . And seeme they neuer so zealous in defence of their sacramentes , & Saintes communion , how basely they esteeme of them , one case in their Cannon law will demonstrate , which I singled , as concerning this purpose fitly . It happeneth that one in iusting and torneament is cast , & his horse falling vpon him , bruiseth him mortally , it is permitted vnto him to communicate of the Eucharist , to be annointed with oile , and to doe pennaunce , ( there are three sacramentes ) and yet after all this , hee must bee denied Christian buriall . First note the absurditie , to preferre buriall aboue the chiefest sacrament : & then the vncharitablenesse , to forbid his bodie to sleepe among Christians , who died in their sight a Christian , which is a kind of deniall of this article , Christian buriall bein some respect , a communion of Saintes . And specially the true and reall presence of our Sauiour Christ in the Eucharist , by which a all the faithfull members participating of one and the selfe-same body , are made one bodie , as all the partes of a mans bodie are made one liuing thing , by participating of one soule . Aunsweare . To discourse of this double controuersy de modo essendi & edendi , of the manner of Christes beeing , and our eating him in the sacramente , consideringe , how their schoolemen , leauing the simple trueth of Gods word , haue verified that prouerbe , Mendacij multiplex est diuortium ; and are at daggers drawing among thēselues , would aske more time , then I vouchsafe to spend in aunsweare of so base a pamphlet as this : the soundest and acutest of them , hauing descanted whether he be there , as quantum , or quantitas ; or if so , whether locally , or if so , whether circumscriptiuely , in the ende are driuen to say , that he is there secundum quendam modum huic sacramento proprium , qui est sacramentalis . Indeede , if Christes naturall bloud were as properly ours , as euery mans owne bloud is his own , some shew there were of this reall and carnall communion of which he speakes , but sithence his bloud , saith Canus , is no otherwise ours , but as the light of the sunne is , by participation , as of those beams , so of his graces ; that as the 〈◊〉 , keeping his certaine tabernacle in the heauens . Psal. 19. doth nourish and cherrish with his heate & brightnesse these inferiour & sublunary bodies , so Christ sitting there , as hee must doe , till his comming in maiestie Act. 3. 21. without locall motion , or carnall application , communicateth with his saintes , in that holy sacrament , the forcible power of his bodie & bloud , which worketh so mightily in faithfull hartes , that both it settleth the kingdome of God within thē , Luc. 17. & lifteth them into heauenly places Eph. 2 faith being that Eagles eie , which , spying the pray a farre off , as Iob speaketh , maketh the saintes resort thether , where the carcasse is , Math. 24. And for the second , great difference there is , perchance , not obserued by many , betweene our eating of Christ , and our vniting with him . Wee are vnited vnto him vt viuenti , as our liuing head , & nos viuificanti and making vs his liuelie members . We eate him as our Passeouer 2. Cor. 5 ; that as the Israelites , eate the one mortuum & assum , deade and roasted , Exod. 12 , so wee him crucifixum & passum , dead and slaine , and so that speech of Austen is true , that we haue him here in pabu , lo , as he was in patibulo torne and rent ; as himselfe ordained the sacra●ent in 〈◊〉 fracto not integro , the bread broken , not the whole loafe , therby signifying , yea saying , that in doing it wee must remember him not as liuing among vs , but as dying for vs ; vt in cruce , non in caelo , as hee was crucified , not as hee is glorified , whereby wee conclude , first , for his presence that his body is so farre foorth there quatenus editur , as it is eaten , but his bodie is eaten as dead and slaine , so himselfe appointed it , This is my bodie , and stayeth not there , but addes withall , which is giuen for you : and his bloud is droncke , not as remayning in his vaines , but as shed ; so himselfe speaketh , This is my bloud of the new testament shed for many . Now his bodie bruised & his bloud poured out can no otherwise be present in the Eucharist , but by a representation therof in the bread broken , & in the wine effused , of the one side ; and on the communicantes part , by a grateful recordation of the benefites , a reuerent valuation of the sacrifice , a faithfull application of his merites in his whole passion ; and therfore his presence must be sacramentall , and our eating spirituall , for , non quod videtur , séd quod creditur pascit , saith S. Augustin . Secondly for the vnion . It is true which Christ saith that hee which eateth my flesh abideth in me and I in him . Ioh. 6. 56. not that this vnion is first begun in the participation of that holy supper ( for none can truely eate the bodie of Christ , vnlesse hee bee first vnited with him , and ingrafted into him , nec veré edit corpus Christi , qui non est de corpore Christi , saith S. August ) because prima vnio , saith Aquinas , the first vnion betweene God and man , is begunne in Baptisme by one spirite , into one bodie , as the Apostle speaketh 1. Cor 12. & continued by faith , hope , and charitie , all these the operation of the spirite . But if we truely eate the bodie , and drinke the bloud of Christ , then by the power of the holy Ghost , and faith cooperating , this vnion is strengthened , the vigour and effectes whereof , after a true participation , we shall feele in our selues more forcible and liuely . An vnion more stronge and neere , then that which he 〈◊〉 speakes of the bodie and soule : for the soule may be separated from the bodie , but the elect mēbers of Christ cā neuer be disiointed from him ; and therefore the whole bodie of his church is sometimes called , by his owne name , not as the Antiochians , Christians , but Christ , so Ambrose reades that place Gal. 5. Qui sunt Christi , They which are Christs in the nominatiue plurall , not in the genitiue singular . Briefly , for both I aske , is not Christ as present in Baptisme as in the Eucharist , for in them both wee communicate with him , bredd a new in the one , fed a new in the other , and yet Christes reall presence is not challenged for Baptisme ? if they say , no , beecause of the Eucharist it was said , This is my bodie and bloud , not so of Baptisme ; I aunsweare , as much , if not more was spokē by the Apostle , They which are baptized haue put on Christ , put him on we cannot vnlesse hee bee present , and the putting him on , is euen the very same , which he els where calleth Christs dwelling in vs. Eph. 3 , namely , that in Baptisme we are so transformed , as now not wee , but Christ alone doth liue within vs , Gal. 2. as neere an vnitie as may . And in trueth S. Augustin is out of doubt , that in Baptisme the true member of Christ corporis & sanguinis Domini particeps fit , is partaker of the bodie and bloud of the Lord , and therfore no reason withstandes , but that he should be really present in both , or in neither . Againe , is it wee , or they which denie the communion of Saintes in this sacrament ? we , keeping Christes institution , and commādement , participating it to all , which by S. Paule his rule , haue first tried and examined themselues , and in both kindes , the bread & the cup : or they , which by their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as the Apostle speaketh ; their priuate masse as they terme it , haue turned coenam in scenam , the supper into a spectacle , and this blessed sacrament into an heaue offering , feeding the peoples eyes with the priestes eleuation , and sole mastucation ? or , if once in a yeare they vouchsafe them the communion , they defalke on halfe , denying them the cup , which by Lombards collection , out of S. Ambrose , is to denie the redemption of the soule ; for the bodie , saith hee , was broken for the freedome of our bodies , and the bloud was shed , for the redeming of the soule , as it was prefigured in Moses law . Thus they maki●g their lai●ie but Easter Saintes , suffering them no other time to communicate with them , and thē also denying them that cōmunion which assures them to bee saintes , in bereauing them of the cuppe , to which that blessi●g was added , which was not to the bread , videlicet , shed for many in remissionem peecatorum for remission of sinnes , and so making them demi-saintes , are more guiltie of annihilating this article of the Communion of Saints then we , which exclude none , and giue the whole . But to conclude , if the real and carnall presence of Christ , be the onely cause of the Saintes vnion vnto him , and their communion among themselues , what then doth S. Augustine meane when he saith , that , in receiuing of the sacramēt , some do eate panem domini , and other some panem dominum ? if it be bread , then it is not transubstantiated into his bodie ; if some do eate the bread of the Lord , & other the bread the Lord , what makes the difference ? if it be his bodie really , then is it alike to all ; for Christes bodie cannot bee changed : if to some it be bread , and to others Christ , the difference is in the receiuer , not in the sacrament : summarilie , in the holy supper , there is sacramentum , & res sacramenti , the first , the twoo elementes , the second , Christ himselfe : they are tasted with the mouth , and chewed in the teeth ; this must haue , as Basil calleth it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the mouth of the inward man , which is faith . The sacrament is receiued by some to life , by others to perdition ; but the thing it selfe , Omni homini ad vitam , nulli ad mortem , saith S. Austen . If therfore Christ be there carnally present , then indefinitely , quicunque eius particeps fuerit , whosoeuer , good or bad , shall participate , eateth vndoubtedly his owne saluation , and so becomes one with Christ , a consequent necessary , but most impious . Seondly they deny the Communion of the church militant & triumphant , by exclaming a against inuocatiō of Saints ; by which holy exercise , those blessed Saintes in heauen , and wee in earth communicate , wee by prayer glorifiing them , and they by b meditation obtayning our requests . Aunsweare . This distinction of saintes into militant and triumphant we allow , that there is but one tribe and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of them both wee acknowlege Eph. 3. We on earth sub pellibus , lying in campe vnder sold & pay , fighting as souldiers 2. Tim. 2. the celestiall in rest and glory , hauing coronam repositam , impositam 2. Tim. 4 , the crowne laid vp for thē , put vpon them , raigning as kinges , Apo. 1. That communion with them wee maintaine , which the primitiue church allowed , both by imitation of their vertues , in our conuersation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by celebration of their praises in panegyricall orations , by the example of the Apostle Heb. 11 ; in reuolution of their annuall memories , at solemne feastes authorized by the church . We detest the Cainans , and Eunomians , for contemning the Saintes departed , accounting a liuing dog , better then a dead lion Eccles. 9. with S. Augustine , we honor them , charitate , non seruitute , hauing receiued prohibition to be seruants of mē 1. Cor. 7 , with loue , not feare ; in admiration of their liues , not adoration of their images : nec templa sicut dijs , sed memorias vt hominibus dicamus , saith Austen , we reare not temples vnto them as Gods , but record their memories as of holy mē ; there being a difference betweene sepulchra aedificare Math. 23 , & simal●chracolere , betwene dignifieng them as Saints by celebration , & Deifieng them as Gods by inuocation : this comb●ning of heauen and earth together , by prayer to them , being rather a mutinous rebellion and conspiracy against God , then a mutuall communion or societie of saintes ; grounded vpon an heathenish superstition , the chiefe authors beeing Plato and Apuleius , who formed mediators Doemonicall , and Heroicall , both , those spiritual essences which they call Doemones , and the soules departed , which they called Heroes , ( as the popish clergie , Angels and Saintes ) continued by supposed aparitions of walking ghostes , and miracles wrought at martyrs monumentes ; and confirmed by some ambiguous irresolutions of a few fathers : for whether they procure vs any good , euen Origen makes it a question , & thinkes it not to bee chartulae mysterium , a written veritie , but an vnknowne secrete ; and they which were that way , in such affections , most passionate , slaked their heat in this case , with a Si , or a Qnasi , as S. Basil : with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Nazianz. as I thinke & am perswaded : not resolued by the scholemen what their knowledge , or their power is , whether their knowledge be matutina or vespertina ; and whether they procure vs any , good either impetratiuè by mediation of their prayers , or interpretatiuè by valuation of their merits . No where , euen by the confessiō of Eckius , authorized in scripture by any example or precept ; not in the old testament , because the people were to prone to Idolatrie , as in the Calfe was seene ; & the saints were thē in Limbo , not glorified : not in the new , least the Gentils couerted shold returne and worship men for Gods , as the Lycaonians did Paul and Barnabas Act. 14. not in the writinges , or preachinges of the Euangelists and Apostles , least they might be suspected of arrogancy , as purueyors of their owne prayses , in proclayming themselus an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a future glory among mē , after their decease ; this saith Eckius , although both Duraeus will needes fetch it from the very crosse of Christ , in this manner ; Our Sauiour , in his passion , cried out Eli , Eli , and the people thought hee had called for Elias , ergo Inuocation of Saintes was vsed among the Iewes . and this pamphletor , as you see , wil haue it an article of faith , which cānot be , whether we look vnto the matter of faith , which is the word , or the obiect of faith , which is Christ. For nothing may bee an article of faith which is not squired by the rule of faith , the scripture : Neither is prayer to be made vnto any , but on whome we beleeue , Rom. 10. & no Christian dare say that wee must beleeue in Saintes . It was said of Cesar , that in the renewing Pompey his statues which were ruinated , he erected his owne : here it is contrary , for this glori●eng of the Saintes , is the disparagement of the whole Trinitie ; of God the father , beeing the principall obiect of our prayers by his owne precept Psal. 50 , Call vpon mee . by Christes auaunt to Sathan , Math. 4 , Eisoli , him only thou shalt serue ; by his soueraigntie of place beeing our king of olde , Psal. 74. 12. nec benè cum socijs regna-manent , saith the Poet. Of the Sonne , beeing the vnus mediator , the alone mediator betweene God and man 1. Tim. 2. 5. the still suruiuing priest making intercession for vs Heb. 7. 25 , without whome there is no accesse vnto the Father Ioh. 14. who onely , as Ambrose saith , hath that double office of a mediatour , imperare vt deus , & visitare vt homo , as man compassionating our infirmities , Heb. 2 , as God supplying our wants , as man dying for our sinnes , as God risen for our iustification Rom. 4. as both God and man , sitting at the right hand , requesting for vs , Rom. 8. 34. Of the Holy Ghost , the life & breath of our praye●s , for we know not what to pray as wee ought , but the spirit it selfe maketh request for vs within vs , Rom. 8. 26. so that the establishing of prayer to Saintes were to subiect the spirite of God to the deuotion of men , for postulare minoris est , saith Aquinas , it is the inferior his part to sue . Wherefore the Apostle concludeth , that the searcher of the hearts knoweth the meaning of the spirit , qui postulat prosanctis , vers . 27. for the Saints not to the Saints . Briefly , whereas euerie prayer must be made in the name of Christ Ioh. 16. ( the sweetest In nomine we can sing ) and euerie praier not so made , non solùm non delet peccatum , sed fit ipsa peccatum saith S. Austen , surely the prayer to saintes must needes be sinne , because we must not pray to them , per Iesum Christum for Christs sake , for that were to make him inferiour to them : and that is no maruaile in Rome , for in their Canon of the masse , the greasie priest , requestes God the Father , that hee would vouchsafe to heare his son Christ ; as if his orizon were more preualent with God , then Christes intercession . 3 They denie the Communion of the church militant , & the soules b in Purgatory , bereauing them of that Christian charitie , which charitable compassion , and mercifull pittie requireth , and by mutuall affection the members of one bodie helpe one another . Aunsweare . It must needes prooue syncere religion , which frames diuinitie of poetrie , and fetcheth Virgils Aeneids into the Apostles creede , & maketh the Popes kitchē-stuffe ( the furnace & fuell of Purgatorie ) an article of faith : but heerein is that speech of Tertullian properly instified , That Philosophers are the Patriarkes of heretickes . This fancie of Purgatorie being imagined , first in the dreame of Homer , Plato , and Virgill , vpon a foolish pittie ( which this melting boweld traytor ) calleth charitable compassion ) that those , who died in their sins which wer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 venial & curable , though they were not woorthy to flie to heauen immediately , yet not so cruelly to bee censured , as to be throwne downe into Ta●arus , or Hell : the iudge who ballaunced the weight of the Painims sinnes was in . exorable Radamanthus , but of the Catholike ghostes , the indulgent Pope . Among the Christians , the principall founders thereof , either Clem. Alexand. who was so enamored of Philosophy , that hee concluded , the Grecians might be thereby saued : or his scholler Origen , of whome it is no maruell , he should thinke the soules departed might bee freed from torment , sithens hee also helde , that euen the damned spirites , and Lucifer himselfe should in the ende bee saued . The scriptures for this place , by their owne confession , none or obscure ; the Fathers in this pointe to themselues contradictorie ; the greatest patrones among themselues vnresolued ; first , of the place , whether in the aire , or vnder the earth , or the brim of hell ; Secondly , for the scite , whether extensiue as a couer ouer hell , in latitude ; or collaterall with hell , seuered by a partition , in longitude ; or circular about hell , in seuerall celles , as the spottes of an apple about the quore : Thirdly , for the nature of the place to some it shall not be fire , but tanquam ignis , as it were fire , as out of S. Paul they collect : to other it shall bee both fire and water , as out of the Psalmes they inferre ; to other it shall bee a lake and no water , as they cite Zachary to that purpose . Fourthly , for the parties tormented , the most wil haue them a middle sorte betweene saintes and sinners ; this fellow , as it seemes , accomptes them saintes , els why brings hee thē within compasse of this article ? Therefore we , refusing to build vpon sand , leaue them to their vnletled coniectures , & out of the Scriptures acknowledge no Purgatorie but one , the bloud of Iesus Christ purging vs from all our sinnes : wherein the garments of the saintes are washed white . Apoc. 7. no other clensing but that which Aquinas mētioneth , velper gratiam a culpa , vel per lumen doctrinae a nescíentia ; either frō the guilt of sinnes by his grace , or the drosse of ignorance by his word . For which he hath appointed a double fire ; for doctrine , the fire of the spirite , 1. Cor. 3. to trie timber from stubble , pearles from strawes : for the other , that which Peter calleth the fierie triall , videlicet , the afflictions of this life , which are as fire to golde , as the flaile to corne , saith Gregorie . But two sortes of vessels , of wrath and sauour , either for honour or contumelie , Rom. 9. sheepe or goates for the right or left hande . A double state of saintes , which S. Paul resembleth to a gargarment , in this world 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the vesture of this flesh in the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their inuestiture with immortalitie ; either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a peregrination from God here , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a presence with him in heauē . For both which there is allotted a seueral burden , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gal. 6. in this life , that which S. Austen calleth onus mutuae charitatis , mutuall affection and compassion in supporting each other vers 2. in the next life , onus reddendae rationis , the render of accompt , which euery one must beare himselfe vers . 5. But two places of resort , Abrahams bosome , & the lake of brimstone ; two wayes thereunto , the one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a straightened path , hardly passable , the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a broadway , a roadway with trauailers innumerable , Math. 7. Two rewardes in the ende , the crowne of righteousnesse , eternall life . 2. Tim. 4. the wages of sinne , euerlasting death , Rom. 6. which S. Austen calleth ignem aeternum and regnum aeternum . Cyprian refrigerium iusti , supplicium iniusti ; the atchieuement of both in this life , in the other neither remission , nor redemption saith Austen , this beeing the time of working that of reward , saith Nazianz , this of striuing , that of crowning saith Chrisostome . The 3. Article is Remission of sinnes , for they acknowledg no such effect in the Sacrament of Baptisme , but onely accoumpt it as externall signe of a praereceiued grace of fauour of God , by his eternall predestination , against the expres word of God : which therfore calleth the Sacrament the a lauer of regeneration , for that in it the soule deade by sinne , is newly regenerated by grace . Aunsweare . This fellow purposed from the beginning Asellius his profession , which P. Africanus said was malitia and nequitia , to bee not onely a libeller , but a liar ; that argues his mind to bee malitious , this bewrayes his cause to be bad , both make him shame lesse , and all spring from ignorance , either making report his ground , or partiall reading his best intelligence , neglecting our writers , and cleauing onely to his owne side , whose fashion it is to fasten opinions vppon vs , neither conceiued by vs , nor receiued among vs. The concent of our church is , that Baptisme is the indument of Christ , Gal. 3. an insition into Christ , Rom. 6. as the arke of Noe , in the deluge , to saue vs. 1. Pet. 3. the lauer of regeneration to wash vs , Tit. 3. working a double effect , priuatiuely remissa culpa in washing vs ; positiuely data iustitia in sanctifieng vs. 1. Cor. 6. 11. whether wee vse it as the water of Iordan by immersion , Math. 3. or as the holy water in the law by aspersiō Nōb. 19. not regarding the heathenish distinctiō , betwene diuing & sprinckling in Macro . & therefore with Clem. Alexand. we account it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the soueraigne counterpoison against originall venim ; with Nazianz. the deluge of sinne ; with Basil , the mother of adoption ; with Chrysostome , the purgatorie of life . Ezechiel his aqua munda , cleansing vs from all our pollutions , Ezech. 36. Notwithstāding , we ascribe not this power either ad clementum , or momentum , not to the element of water , as though it had vim ablutiuam , as Aquine speaketh , this skouring force ; or regeneratiuam this renewing power , as Lombard termes it ; but vnto the bloud of Christ working inuisibly by the power of the spirite , Tit. 3. non enim aqua lauat animam , sed ipsa prius lauatur a spiritu , vt lauare possit spiritualiter , saith Ierome . Hereupon the Fathers resemble it to the diuing poole of Bethesda , Ioh. 5. as that being moued by the Angell , had an healing power : so this cōsecrated by the word and sanctified by the spirite , hath a soueraigne effect and operation ; and for that purpose , somtimes they call the water , in Baptisme , rubram aquam red water , the bloud of Christ , hauing ther his inuisible working . Why ? but the Protestants accoumpt it onely an externall seale of a prereceiued grace in Gods predestination : hee names none , yet Campian , whose ape hee is , quoates Caluin , but cites him not ; Duraeus cites him , but vnderstandes him not ; that word onely is not the first he hee hath coyned ; the father of lies , as the Fathers obserue in Math 4. hauing taught them all a to adde or defalke from a text to serue their turne . The first fruit , which master Caluin , among three principall effectes , noteth in this sacrament is , that it is Symbolum nostrae purgationis , the very wordes of the Greeke Scholiast . in 1. Pet. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yea of Pighius a grosse papist , baptsmus a peccatis ablutionis signum est . & instar signati diplomatis saith Caluin , and as the kinges ●etters pattents vnder seale confirmeth our commission : that as a prince , hauing purposed a fauour to his subiectes , graunts it by his patentes of meere indulgence , and ratifies it by his seale for more assurance ; so God , hauing purposed in his eternall counsell to saue some , which hee cannot doe before hee haue remitted their sinnes , therefore in Baptisme he both conferres this grace , & confirmes it vnto them ; for which cause the scriptures and fathers do call it sigillum promissionis & remissionis ; conferres it , I say , as Campian confesseth it , veluti per canalem , deriuatiuely , not originally ; effectually , not effectiuely ; as by a brooke not as from a spring ; for this is Christes bloud , quia latus Christi est latex sacramenti saith S. Austen : as Allen the Cardinall speaketh , grace is wrought in Baptisme as a man writeth with a penne , powerfully , yet instrumentally ▪ confirmes it visibly , se●ling that which concealed ; so , that which was in his secrete counsell , propositum , the purpose of his will by predestination , in Baptisme hee makes it depositum , the pledge of our saluation , and onely to the elect , for in solis electis sacramenta efficiunt quod figurant saith S. Augustine , in the elect onely , the sacraments performe really , which they present figuratiuely : and therefore that is no heresie nor fancie to call it the seale of a praereceiued grace . For iustificatiō by faith , which oftentimes , in those which are adulti , preuents Baptisme , is a praeaccepted grace , and cannot stand without a perfect remission of their sinnes which are so iustifyed . What fruite then bringes Baptisme to them ? euē this saith Lombard , beecause hee who thus iustified commeth to Baptisme , is as the branch brought by the doue in to Noe his arke , Gen. 8. qui ante intus erat iudicio Dei sed nunc etiam iudicio Ecclesiae , who beefore was iustified , & fully remitted in gods secrete iudgement , but now by Baptisme is made a visible member of the Church , the ●acrament being the euidence of Gods prouidence and this was Cornelius his case Act. 10. Also a we vrge the necessitie of Baptisme , especially to infantes , least they should seeme either naturally innocent , or generally sanctified without it ; yet not simply , but with a reseruation , first , of Gods omnipotencie , who beeing agens liberrimum , as the schoolemen speake , hath not tied his power to the sacraments , saith Lombard ; secondly , of preeminence to Christes Baptisme , wherein , not hee , but we were washed , the waters drenching him , but cleansing vs : which made S. Augustine to crie out Omisericordia , ô the mercie , and withall , the power of God , Nec dum eramus in mūdo , et iam abluebamur in Baptismo . Thirdly , with a dispensation of that which the scholemen call articulum necessitatis , there beeing no contempt of religion , but either extremitie disappointing ; or death suddenly preuenting , as infantes , and the theefe crucified Luc. 23. Fourthly , with a distinction of Baptismus voti , when there 〈…〉 in the parties , but no oportunitie for the action , volentes non valentes saith Lombard , as in the case of Valentinian in S. Ambrose : briefly , we so highly extoll the dignitie , necessitie , and efficacie of Baptisme , that Duraeus pleaseth himselfe triumphantly , in hope that some of our writers are prooued , in this opinion , Romanistes , sauing , hee misliketh our detestation of that magicall conceite of opus operatum , videlicet , that the very act of Baptisme , without either the parties faith , or the spirites power , should confime grace of it selfe . To conclude , whether wee or they acknowledge more power and effic●cie in this sacramēt , let the world iudge : wee , with the Apostle ascribe the effectes of grace , of cleansing , of remission , of sanctification vnto this holy Baptisme . 1. Cor. 6. 11. euen as it was instituted by our Sauiour , without any slibber-sauced ceremonies ; or they , who , as if it were not of it selfe effectuall inough , adde exorcismes , and exufflations , and lights , and oile , and spittle , and durt , with which neither the riuer Iordan , nor the 〈…〉 , and Infantes were euer consorted or acquainted . And now from ablution , hee comes to absolution . Moreouer , they allow not the Sacrament of penance , wherein all actuall a sinns , committed after Baptisme are cancelled . Answeare . The Apostle willing vs to offer vp our bodies sacrifices , we vse pennance or repentance , as the Priestes sacrificing kniues , to mortifie our earthly members . Colos. 3. to kill those beastlike passions and affections which rage within vs : applying it as an wholesome chastisement , not vsing it as an holy sacrament , it hauing neither visible signe , nor diuine institution . The Trentish conuenticle confesseth , that it was no sacrament in the olde testamente , whereby we inferre that it is no sacrament at all ; for Peter Act. 10 , and Paul Act. 26 professe , that they preach no other doctrine of repentance , then that which the Fathers and rophets beefore had taught . Neither was it , ●ay the Trentistes , a sacrament before Christes resurrection , but after it was : then first , the repētance which Iohn Baptist preached , Math. 3. and our Sauiour published , Math. 4. ( both which places the Rhemistes haue translated Doe pennance ) was no sacrament . Secondly , it crosseth an other assertion of their owne , when they say that Pennance is no sacramēt beefore Baptisme ; put the case in those which beeing conuerted , and hauing repented vpon Peter his sermon Act. 2. were after baptized , which was after Christ was risen and ascended ; by the first opinion then it was a sacrament ; it was beefore their Baptisme , by their second rule then it was no sacrament . Lastly by this concession of theirs , all the examples , and testimonies , which they inforce for satisfaction our of the olde testament , either of Miriam Dauid , or Manasses are friuolous and superfluous . And therefore the glosse of their Canon law concludes , it is better to say , that it was rather an vniuersall tradition of the church , then any scripture institution : and one of their great schoolemen is peremptorie , that the agnizing of the fault & desert of punishment , together with the recognizing of Gods mercie and fauour , causeth remission of the sinne , as for confessiō and satisfaction , it is the church imposition . Trueth it is , loth they are to giue too much to Gods grace , therefore , because in Baptisme wee receiue remission of our sins freely , without our worke concurring , they haue inuēted for falles after Baptisme Pennance , wherein temporarie satisfactiōs shal be meritorious . As for vs , we confesse ingenuously , that , by reason both of that originall taint , which Cyprian calleth virus paternum , Adams guilt : & our naturall corruption , which Dauid calleth virus maternum , our mothers conception . Psal. 51. and the reliques thereof , which S. Paul clepeth the law of the emembers , Rom. 7. ●eueling in our bodies , & rebelling against the spirite , till it haue gotten from peccatum babitans to peccatum regnans , Ro● . 6. as S. Iames saith , in many thinges , wee euery one offend , euen the iustest man , seauen times a day . Prou. 24. the treacheries of the deuill , the lustes of theflesh , the allu rements of the world , working vppon that corrupt inclination , sometimes praeoccupate vs , with slips of ignorance , through infirmitie ; oft-times th●ough malice precipitate vs into hainous enormities , euen those which the schoolemen call vastantia conscientiam , which without repentance & faith , cannot be remitted . And therefore we detest the Anabaptistes , who establish a perfection after Baptisme , more absolute then Adams was in his integritie . For as Augustine noteth , his was posse non peccare , a libertie , if hee would , not to sinne : but they will haue it coelestiall , non posse peccare , to haue no possibilitie to sinne , this is Pharisaicall arrogancie : much more the Nouatians , who denie to those that relapse after Baptisme , any hope of remissiō frō God , or intromission into the church ; this is the gulfe of dispaire . And to them we 〈◊〉 the Enthusiastes , who thinke God will be reconciled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without mediatiō by prayer , or ministerie of the word , or assuraunce of faith , or sorrow by repentance , this is Epicurish securitie : but in defiance of them all , we preach with S. Augustine , repentance to be arra pacis , the earnest of our peace with God ; with S. Basil , that it is the physicke of the soule ; and as in Phisicke there are three partes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 surgerie by incision , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by purgation ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by diet ; so herein , first , contrition , which is the phlebotomie , yea the cutting of the very hart-stringes . Act. 2. which Dauid calleth the acceptable sacrifice . Ps. 51. secōd confession , as the vomit casting out before God and men , to our confusion , and their example , the filthinesse of our sinnes : as the Scolopendra turneth her entrailes outward to scoure them ; pleading , as Gregorie speaketh , nostras causas apud Deum , & . causam Domini aduersus nos , acknowledging our sinnes against our selues Psal. 32. with shame of countenance , with remorse of conscience : priuately , if we be burdened ; publikely , if we be inioyned . Thirdly , fasting and weeping , Ioel. 2. which is the diet to keepe the bodie vnder , and tame it by subiection 1. Cor. 9. not onely as a preuention of sinne , but as a punishment for sinne . Psal. 69. 1● . which repentaunce , or penaunce , notwithstanding , wee doe not say with the Pseudocatholikes to bee a second plancke to saue vs , a new meanes of our remission , eleuating thereby , or annihilating the vigour and force of Baptisme , the effect whereof , I said beefore , wee tied not a ad momentum to the very instant of the celebration , as if any sinne after ensuing might abolishit ; for , that were too much to weaken the efficacie of so mightie a sacrament , and to repeale too sodeinely the force of so strong a couenant , and to deiect most basely the authoritie of so great a seale , especially the holy Ghost hauing called it , an aeternall mercie , an vnmoueable league , Esa. 54. and as a continuall current for all times : saluos fecit , for the time past , he hath saued vs by the l●uer , T it 3. saluos facit , it doth saue vs for the present state , 1. Pet. 3. and for the time to come , he that beleeueth and is baptized saluabitur shall bee saued . Mar. 16. And that which passeth all in absurdity , is to denie that our sinnes are perfectly forgiuen , but onely not imputed , and as it were veyled or couered with the passion of Christ , all the botches and biles , the filth and abomination of sinne still remaining , and as it were exhaling a most pestiferous sent in the sight of God. Aunsweare . Dauid seemes mad , but to whome ? saith Austen , regi Achis , id est , stultis & ignorantibus , to king Achis , that is , to fooles & rudesbies : so to Pharisaicall Catholiques destroying grace , to reare vp merites , the diuinitie both of the greatest Prophet , and the chiefest Apostle will seme absurditie . To the point , Blessed he cannot bee , which is not fully remitted , but Dauid pronounceth him blessed , to whome sinne is not imputed Psal. 32. Christes righteousnesse imputed is the perfect remission of sinnes , saith Ambrose in Rom. 8. for our iustification is nothing els , but our sinnes remission saith Oecumenius : because whome he hath called , them he hath iustified , scilicet , remissionepeccatorū , as the Glosse expoundes that place , to which agreeth Gorram . in Rom. 4. and Pighius often in his controuersie de fide & iustificatione . But where Christes righteousnesse is imputed , there is true iustification , which cannot bee perfect , without full remission saith Paul. Roman . 3. Wherefore in saying , that wee denie a perfect remission , is to deceiue the reader , and to abusevs : and to accompt this doctrine , that the not imputing of sinnes , is a perfect forgiuenesse , as an absurditie , is the disgrace of the scriptures , not of vs , which are so taught by the Scriptures . Sinnes are debtes Math. 18. the creditor beeing satisfied , the bond is cancelled , the debt remitted . God is reconciled to vs by his sonne , the price of whose bloud hath satisfied him I. Pet. 1. the vertue thereof hath washed vs , Apocal. 1. the hand-writing is fastened to the crosse , Colos. 2. the sinne forgiuen vnto vs : yet stil we remaine debters , otherwise wee neede not dailie pray , forgiue vs our debtes Mat. 6. therefore they are remitted , because not exacted extreamely , not beecause they are taken away radically , for Dauid did not pronounce him blessed saith S. Augustine , in quo non inuenta &c. in whome sinne was not found at all , but to whome God impuleth not sinne . Who hath had what hee could require , death for the transgression of the precept Gen. 3. our Sauiour hath suffered it . Phil. ● . a curse for the breach of the law , he hath borne it , Gal. 3. the hugenes of our sinnes cannot prouoke him , the price hath sufficed him ; the lothsomnes cannot offend him , his bloud hath purged them . No doubt the corruption thereof exhaleth , as hee speaketh , of themselues , a noysome sauour and stench , which Dauid confesseth , Psal. 38 , yet the sonne of righteousnesse hath dispersed the fogge , that it cannot ascend to his father , and the sweet smelling sauour of his sacrifice , Ephes. 5. hath taken away the sent thereof , that it cānot annoy him . and this is that which Dauid calleth the couering of our sinnes . Psal. 32. vpon which both S. Augustine diuinely descanteth , If hee haue couered them , noluit aduertere , hee would not marke , them ; if hee would not note thē , noluit animaduertere , he would not straightly examine them ; if not sift them narrowly , noluir punire , hee would not punish them ; noluit agnoscere , maluit ignoscere , he would not acknowledge them , he had rather forgiue them : and one of their owne , Flaminius in his paraphrase vppon the Psalmes dedicated to Cardinall Farnesius , excellētly saith . Blessed are they whose vnrighteousnes is forgiuen ; it is woorth the notíng saith he , how the Prophet pronounceth them blessed , not which are free from sinne , & cleane without all spot , for there is none such liuing , but them to whome Gods mercy forgiueth sinnes , and them it forgiueth who cōfesse and beleeue that the bloud of Christ is the perfect expiation for their sinnes and offences . Who is it then which can lay any thing to the charge of Gods chosen , & accuse them , saith Paule ? if none can conuince them , they are perfectly iustifyed , if so , then fully remitted , so it is , saith the Apostle , it is God that iustifieth . How ? one of their owne doctors shall expound it , in forbearing the punishment , beecause hee hath said nolo mortem peccatoris , a sinner hee is , but I will not that he shal die . And that which the schoolemen say , that , formale peccati is abolished , but the materiale remaineth , is nothing els , but that which we say , the guilt is remooued , because God is pacified in his beloued , yet the reliques of sinne still remaine and dwell within vs , euen being regenerate , Rom. 7. for if we say we haue no sinne , we deceiue our selues , but if we confesse thē , hee is faithfull and iust to forgiue thē , I. Ioh. 1. Now in their opiniō , how are sinnes forgiuen ? by charitie infused , which expelleth sin , as the light doth darkenes . This is the bountie of Gods larges , no remissiō of the trespasse ; for , thogh a creditor giue his debtor a stocke to set him vp , this new donation cuts not off the former arrerages , which when he pleaseth he may exact : so that by this doctrine , not the almightie recōciled , but mā qualified ; not Christ patient , but a qualitie inherent ; not god by grace pardōing , but an instilled vertue expelling sinne , is the cause of remission ; which S. Hilarie manifestly crosseth , in saying , that the forgiuenesse of sinnes is not probitatis meritum , any desert of qualitie within vs , but it consisteth in miserendo , & miserando , in the free indulgence of Gods affection , compassionating our condition ; and exuberans bonitas , the ouerflowing of his grace abounding to the act of remission ; which in Iustine Martyr his glosse in Psal. 32. is the not imputing of sinne , Blessed , saith the Prophet , is ●hee to whome the Lord imputeth not sinne , that is , saith Iustine , to whome , repenting , God doth forgiue his sinne . Which not imputing , how meanely soeuer they esteeme thereof , yet Origen makes the highest step of forgiuenesse : the first being dimissio peccati , God not obseruing our sin , but passing by it , as not regarding it ; the second tectio , the couering thereof by his grace ; the third and highest , non imputatio , the not imputing them . So that the perfect remission of sinnes by Dauid his gradation , and Origen his glosse , is onely the not imputing of sinne . By which assertion neither these Fathers , nor wee , doe any way attenuate the burden of sinne , as beeing thus easely remitted , nor bolster it out , as presuming of this indulgent fauour : and therefore his flaunt of vanity , which followeth , might well haue beene spared , especially since he laboureth to be an Epitomist . For let them shift themselues as they list , and scarfe their soares according to their fancies ; yet no veile nor mantle can couer the deformity of sinne from the piercing eies of Gods perfect vnderstanding , from which nothing can be concealed . Aunsweare . — Bullatis vt mihi nugis Pagina turgescit ? saith the poet : these are the trappinges of Balaams beast , a vaine rhetoricall flourish , the displayed streamer of a dastard spirite , either distrusting his cause , for which hee hath entred the field ; or the weakenesse of his argumentes , wherewith hee should maintaine it . His conscience knoweth it , because our writinges declare , & our preachinges declame , that with Abacuck wee confesse , that as Gods eies are pure , not induring to see euill , or to behold iniquitie ; so they are piercing , searching the very hart and reines : that he detesteth a sinner - cane peius & angue , worse then a serpent , for vnto the dragons he said , Praise the Lord ye serpents , Psal. 148 , but vnto the sinner he saith , Why doest thou preach my law , and takest my couenant in thy mouth ? that the filthy leprosie of our sinnes , make him loath vs , and vs also loth to looke vp to him , facies peccatorum , as Dauid calles it , Psal. 38 , beeing so Medusalike horribly deformed , that , in beholding therof , it both strikes a terrour into our conscience , and a shame ouer our countenance , confessing with Daniel , that in respect thereof , there beelongeth to vs nothing but confusion of face . Wee scarifie them , we scarfe them not , we wish mē to discusse them , not to excuse them , with Bernard , wee will them to lay open their sinnes , as Lazarus his soares , to mooue the more compassion . We say , with Ieremy , it is the Lordes mercies that wee are not all consumed , Lam. 3. For if hee shoulde marke extremely what were done amisse , none could stand , Psal. 130. so farre we are frō iustifieng our selues , that we say with the Prophet Esa. 64. that all our righteousnesse is as a menstruous cloth ; with S. Augustine , Vae iustitiae nostrae , si rēmota iustitia iudicetur . They are the mē who haue made scarfes , and veiles , and rebaters for sinnes , in saying that concupiscence , ( which the Apostle plainely tearmeth sinne , Rom. 7. which beeing the diuels concubine , is the damme of all actuall sinnes Iac. 1. ) either to be no sinne , but only fomes , the allumettes , or sulphurated fuell , by which sinne is easely kindled ; or to bee sinne abusiuely , as Christ is called sinne , 2. Cor. 5. or metonymically , either because it accrueth of sinne , or prouoketh vs to sinne . Secondly , in denying the workes of infidels , and vnregenerate persons , to bee sinnes , crossing the Apostle , concluding euery action without faith to bee sinne , Rom. 14. and S. Austen who saith , Quicquid in te est sine Christo Satan est . Thirdly in coyning a distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes , contradicted by S. Paul , who awardeth death for sinne , as the proper reward , Rom. 6. and by Nazian-who elegantly saith , that euery sinne is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the life of death , and the death of the soule : Fourthly , in applying such facile lenatiues , & remedies for sinnes , as the sprinckling of holy water ; the largesse of a rich Almner ; the indulgence of a bribed Pope ; at the most , the lash of a whip in penaunce , or the flash of the fire in purgatorie , these are the scarfes , and plasters inuented by them for sinnes ; of which more heereafter in the second part concerning manners . And now from the sinnes of man , we must follow him to the sonne of God. 4 The Puritans in effect denie that Christ is the sonne of God ; for they peremptorily affirme , that Christ is God him selfe and not God of God. So that hee receiued not his diuinitie from his father . The which position flatly taketh away the nature of a son , for the nature of a sonne is to receiue his substance of his father , and it implyeth contradiction : that the sonne receiueth his person of his father , and not his substance and essence , for the substance of God is essentiall to euerie person in Trinity . Aunsweare . It is well obserued by Aelianus , that prei●dice neither heareth nor seeth any thing acurately , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , wherevpon it commeth to passe , that it oft times iudgeth amisse : this obiection he hath receiued by tradition from their owne , not reading our writers : yet had hee read Bellarmine & not trusted too much to Campians credite , this section might haue bene cut off : For Bellarmine thinkes that master Caluin ( whom this pamphleter woūdeth through the Puritans sides ) is wrongfully challenged in this point , by Genebrard : and that when the worst is made of it , it will prooue but a brandishing of wordes , no controuersy of substance , saith the Iesuite elswhere . So farre then from being an heresie , which , Ierome saith , is in sensu , non in verbis , in the meaning not in the wordes : that it is not to be accompted a fault , for sensus , non sermo fit crimen , in Hilary his iudgement , the sence , not the speech makes a crime . And yet euen the woords , to a sound and charitable diuine , are no way faultie , videlicet , that Christ is Deus de Deo , Deus ex sese , God of God , God of himselfe , which seemeth , say they , to implay a contradiction , for him to be God of himselfe , which is God of God. ( not to discours of this point in this short abstract of aunsweare ) Basil reconciles them , he is God of God , as he is the Sonne , he is God of himself , as he is an Essence . For the Sonne , saith hee , was begotten 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not as hee is a substance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but so farre foorth as he is a sonne , that is , as S. Austen speaketh , secundum relatiuum , relatiuely as the one is the father , the other the sonne . because Essentia non est illud quod generat , saith I ombard , it is not the Essence which begetteth . Neither must we beleue , quoth his Epitomist Spinaeus , quòd Pater genuit diuinam esētiam , that the Father begat the diuine essence : which is also S : Bernard his opiniō , Quòd alter ex altero , & alter ad alterum est , & veracissimè dicitur , this relatiō , that one is of the other , personarum designatio est , non vnitatis diuisio , is the designemēt of the persons , not the distracting of the vnitie ; and this is Caluin his drift against Gētilis , in saying that Christ was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God of him selfe : beecause that blasphemer his opinion was , that the Father was Essentiator filij , and the sonne Essentiatus : that the deitie of Christ was but a portion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a cantell cut out of Gods essence , by a dependance , and leaue , not originally : so that his meaning is , as Bellarmine confesseth , that Christ as God , borrowed not his essence from the Father , but communicated from all eternitie of the same essence with him , there being as Cyril speaketh , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the same identitie of substāce in al the three persons ; else were not Christ God equall with his Father : and so should commit a robbery in making himselfe so , Phi. 2. for whatsoeuer incipit esse ex aliquo , or per aliquod , is not idem illi , the same with it , by which & of which it hath his being , saith Anselmus . Therefore Austen concludeth , that hee is called the sonne respectiuely to his father , but Deus ad seipsum , correspondent to that of Cyrill , that the Father and Sonne respecting the substance , are vnum principium , for that he , which was in the beginning with God , was God , Ioh. 1. 1. so that , those speaches of the Fathers , of Ignatius , that the essence of the Sonne is genita , begotten : of Denis , that in the Father is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the fountaine of the Deitie : of Hilarie , that the Son hath nothing nisi natum , but to be borne ; of Augustine , that the Father hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his essence of himselfe , the Sonne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his essence frō another : these ( I say ) are to bee vnderstood hypostatically , in regard of the persons , not essentially , which is Caluins opinion & no errour , from which Bellarmine rids him by this distinctiō . In which positiō if ther be either Arrianisme , as Genebrard wil haue it ; or Puritanism , as this mate scornes it ; or Mahumetisme , as Duraeus will inferre it ; or Manicheisme , to which Canisius referres it , then euen Genebrard himselfe is that way guiltie , who oft so distinguisheth ; then was Pope Innocentius a Puritane , who definitiuely concludeth , for Lombard against Ioachimus the Abbat , with authoritie and consent of the Councell of Lateran , wee belieue and confesse that there is vna quaedam res , one certaine thing incomprehensible and ineffable , which truely is the Father , Sonne ; and holy Ghost , and euerie of these three persons is illa res , that thing , viz. the substance , essence , and nature diuine : and illa res , that thing is neither generans , nec genita , neque procedens , neither ingendreth , nor is begotten , nor doth proceed : but it is the Father which begetteth , the Sonne is begotten , & the holy Ghost proceedeth , that so distinctio sit in personis , vnitas in natura , there may be a distinction of the persons , but an vnitie in essence : thē is Bellarmine a Puritan , for he alleadging Simlerus his confession , non negamus filium habere essentiam à Deo patre , sed essentiam genitam negamus , wee denie not the sonne to haue his essence of the Father , but we deny that the essence is begotten ( the very opinion for which the Puritans are challenged ) seeth no reason , cur haec sententia catholica dicenda non sit , why this position should not bee catholike and orthodoxall . Then is Epiphanius a Catharist , who calleth Christ , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perfect of himselfe , God of himselfe . and Origen also , who calleth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 life of himselfe : which is all one , for idem est Deo esse & viuere , say the schoolemen , it is all one in God , to be & to liue . Briefly , the mystery is intricate , in quo humanum laborat ingenium , saith S. Augustine , intangling the wit , & exceeding the speech of any man : this obiection no controuersie , but a slaunder , long since vnaunswearably rebutted by vs into their teeth , sauing that , with the poet , their malice so either delighteth or deceiueth them , that they had rather continue a cauill vainely , & contumeliously , Quàm sapere & ring● — And now from heauen , like Lncifer , hee glides to hell . 5 Finally , they denie the d●scention of Christ into hell , and desperately defend , that he suffered the paines of hell vpon the crosse , whereby they blaspheme most horribly that sacred humanitie : as if Christ had despaired of his saluation , as if God had hated him , and hee had hated God ; as if he had beene afflicted and tormented with anguish of mind for his offences , for which hee was depriued of the sight of God , and eternally to bee depriued : all which horrible punishmentes are included in the paines of hell , and whosoeuer ascribeth them to Christ , blasphemeth more horribly then Arrius , who denyed him to bee God : for lesse absurditie were it to deny him to bee God , then to make God , the enemy of God. Aunsweare . What Puritans denie or affirme , the Church of England , whome this libell principally attainteth , meaneth not to defend , which , to cut off all factions in opinions about religion , hath ioyntly concluded the whole summe of her profession within the compasse of forty articles , the third whereof is this , As Christ died for vs , & was buried , so , withall , it is to be beleeued that he went downe into hell : which it inioyneth vs to beleeue , not so much beecause it is an article in the Apostles Symbole , so called , ( for it is notorious that this article was not admitted into the Creede 300 yeares after Christ , neither by the East nor West churches : omitted also in the Nicene Creede ; nor any where extant , as Aquinas confesseth , in Symbolo patrum , in the articles which the auncient fathers doe recompt ) but as being grounded vpon manifest scripture Psal. 16. and Act. 2. The exposition thereof not onely in moderne times , but euen presently after the admitting thereof , diuers and different ; euery part of the proposition , hauing a diuerse acceptation in the scriptures . For the proposition beeing this , Christ descended into hell ; the subiect , Christ , is sometimes put for his person ; sometimes for the efficacy of his death : his person somwhere for his Diuine , elswhere for his humane nature ; his humanitie in some places , for his body onely ; in other for his soule alone ; and sometimes , for both his person and his office . The copula , descended , signifieth either a locall motion , from a higher to a lower place : or some more speciall pre●ence , and effectuall power , shewed more in one place then another ; as God , saying in Genesis , that he wil go downe : and the holy Ghost descending in the Baptisme of Christ , Math. 3. The praedicate , Inferos Hell , either the graue ; or the place of the damned ; or the miserablest state , which may befall a man , either by imminēt perils pursuing him , which was Dauids Hell Psal. 18. or anxietie of mind tormenting him , which was Annaes He●l 1. Sam. 2. 6. or both ioyned together which was Ionas Hell , in his bodie distressed , being deuouted of a whale , in the deepe sea : in his mind feeling Gods high displeasure vppon him , for his disobedience , Ion. 2. From which varietie of sence , there issue fiue seuerall interpretations of this article , none of them exorbitant from the scriptures tracke , or erring from the analogy of faith . 1 That Christ his bodie was laid in the graue . 2 His soule , separate from the bodie , went to the place where were the soules departed . 3 His Deitie exhibited it selfe , as it were present , in the lowest pit , to the terrour of the deuils , and further despaire of the reprobate . 4 That the efficacie and power of his death , did euen thether stretch it selfe . 5 That Christ suffered those extreme anguishes and torments , which , for our sakes , by his father appointed he was to endure . There is also a sixth , which passeth most rife among th● Fathers , who , taking Inferi for Abrahams bosome , expound it , that Christ wēt thether ad liber andum liberandos to conuay the Fathers , deceased before his resurrection , into the place where nowe they are : but not returning , as the grosse Papistes expresse him , like another Hercules & Thoseus , with a flagge and a crosse . Saint Austen confesseth he could not satisfie himselfe with any exposition thereof , especially of that place of Saint Peter , which seemes most to confirme it . Cyprian , or Ruffinus approue the first , that hee lay in his graue . The schoolmen mightilie trouble their heades , 1. into what place of hell hee went ? Thomas includes all the parts of hell , as they haue diuided it : that as an haruenger he scowred Limbus patrum , and rid all from thence : as a conqueror he presented himselfe in Tartarus , for the terror of the damned ; as a visitor he surueyed Purgatory , promising them remission ; 2. Howe hee descended , and was there ? Caietan standes to it , that hee was there secundum effectum , powerfully , not personally . Durande , that his soule was in Paradise secundum essentiam , substantially , but in Hell ad effectum . Their Apollo Aquinas , that hee was in Limbo patrum in the first manner , in the other partes of hell , onely , in power and effect . 3. Whether he endured the paines of hell , or were in loco paenae sine paena , as Bonauenture wil ? or in paine & torment , as Caietan collecteth out of Psal. 16 ? 4. What fruit and profite his descention wrought , whether he conferred any essentiall blessednes on the saints , which makes against Augustine : or increase thereof onely by hope of euasion from Purgatorie in time . 5. Whether the soules in Abrahams bosome only , or other besides them were manumitted ; and among the rest , yea ( one legend will haue it ) before the rest , Plato his soule had the preheminence , hauing the grace first to receiue the faith . These curious quaerees , and fabulous eliminations of hels secrets , which S. Iohn properly calleth the deepnes of Sathan , haue made men of zeale and iudgement to recourse to the scriptures , if there they may find a more full , certain & Theologicall sence of that article . Nowe then if the Puritanes ( as this scorner tearmes them ) among these Hydraheaded expositions , one suppullulating after another , admit of the last , viz. his extreme agonie , and feare in the garden , and on the crosse , induced thereunto , respectiuely , considering , 1. the basenesse of that nature , wherein hee was vilified , despicatissimi vernaculi , imó vermiculi , saith S. Bernard . 2. The cause he vndertooke , our sinnes : 3. The punishment for them , an accursed death . Besides the phrases in scripture , expressing those anguished of mind : in the ingresse of this abissus , his soule heauie euen vnto the death , Mat. 26 , with that strong crie and teares to bee deliuered , Hebr. 5 : in the progresse therin , those grumi sanguinis , clots of bloud breking from him Luc. 22 : in recessu intimo , when he was deepest in , that dreadful clamor , expressing a most horrible passion , My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken mee ? Math. 27 : with-all , his triumphes ouer the powers of hell , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , admitt which you please , either the first , referring it to his crosse , as Origen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vpō the tree , where he did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , traduce them openly , videlicet , those spoiles which by conquest hee had recouered from the strong man , Math. 12. or the second , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in himselfe , which must be referred to bodie and soule both together , which could not be in hell locally , his bodie neuer descēding thether , therefore to bee referred to his suffering , which for that cause Bernard calleth actio passiua , & passio actiua ; if vpon these inducements , hauing , as they thinke , more pregnant proofe in scripture , then any the rest , they sticke to this ( put case the exposition be not the most proper ) yet are they not to be accused of denying the article , for misse-interpretation is no deniall : perhaps , to expresse more liuely , and impresse in our thoughtes more deepely , that direfull conflict , which for vs wretches it pleased him to endure , they haue vsed woordes somewhat hyperbolicall , as despairing and forsaken : yet if first we consider our Sauiour in his meere humane nature , the deity , as it were , sequestring it selfe for a time , to lay him more open to this dreadfull combate ; secondly , that both some of the Fathers , and also their owne writers , haue vsed almost the very same woordes of extremitie , S. Ierome , that he did trepidanter renuere , with trēbling refuse , Damascene , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that he was truely and vnfainedly affrighted , citing Athanasius for his authoritie ; Rabanus , that his humane nature was derelicta ; for●orne , forsaken ; and therefore c●ied out , as we do in extreame daungers and agonies , qui deseri nos putamus , thinking and saying with Dauid , wee are cast out of the sight of Gods eyes ; and Canus , that being derelictus à deo , omnique penitùs solatio destitutus , forsaken of God , & left void of all cōfort frō him , he culd not but sorrow ; surely thē this accusatiō of denying this article , & of blasphemous Arrianisme , allightes vpō these fathers , & themselues , as vpō the Puritans . But whōsoeuer this imputation toucheth , it no way concerneth , as at first said , our English professors , who establish that article , inioyning it to be accepted as an article of faith , the exposition whereof , as it is generally receiued in England , that right reuerende Father the B. of Winchester hath set downe . And so at last wee haue found an end of this long article , consisting of so ma●y branches . Whereof wee may say with the Greeke Philosopher , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it hath had many lies , & as many contumelies . The Fifth Article . The Protestantes haue no meane to determine controuersies , and abolish heresies . As the Protestantes neither know what they beleeue , nor why they beleeue : so haue they no means in their church to settle them in vnitie of beleefe , no● to determine controuersies , nor to abolish heresies , as hath the Catholike church : Aunsweare . THis is like the Sophister , who hauing spent all his argumentes beefore his houre , cries out , repetamus omnia breuiter , & rotundè , let vs goe ouer them againe briefly and roundly : hee wanted matter to fill vp his odde nomber of fi●ue , therfore he botcheth it vp with the second , third , and fourth articles , bringing vs backe to his why , & what , making vs worse then emperikes and quackesaluers : for they know , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that such a salue is good for such a wound , but not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the reason thereof : as for vs , we know neither why , nor what we beleue . The great Philosopher thought that orators , which would demonstrate their coniectures ; & Geometricians which would perswade their principles , were very foolish ; because neither thinges probable could be ratified by demonstrations , nor thinges necessary are to be induced by perswasion . The grounds of our faith are supernaturall and diuine , the cause spirituall and inward , and therefore not to be examined , nor aunsweared by why and what , that is humane reason ; yet we say as before , that the what , the matter of our faith , is the holy scripture , written , that we might beleeue , saith Iohn ; which without doubting , we must beleeue saith Austen . The why , that is , the meanes why wee beleeue ex auditu , Rom. 10 , by the word preached , that is oleum effusum in S. Bernard . The cause why , ex motu , the inward operation of the spirite , that is oleū infusum . For magisteria are adiutoria , saith Augustine , the ministerie of the word is a coadiutor with the spirite , but cathedram in coelo habet , qui corda docet , he that informeth the heart , is the doctor of the chaire , not of Moses in the Synagogues & schooles of Ierusalem , Math. 23 : but in heauen is his chaire , from whence he teacheth by his spirite . Againe , he reuoketh vs to Church and Councels , foure times repeated within foure leaues , to which , because we will not stand with out due examination or iust cōtradiction , therefore hee inferres , that we haue no meanes to settle faith , to determine controuersies , to abolish heresies : all which haue beene aunsweared in the former articles , wherin we appropriate these especial meanes vnto the spirite of God , and the holy scriptures ; for the first , the scripture , saith Isidore , worketh in vs faith , not obliquely , hoouerly , & ambiguously , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , firmely amassed and compact , deepely setled , qui ne branle point , as the French speake , not mutable , not nutable : for that which onely ingendreth faith , is the principall meanes to settle faith , which are onely these twoo , the word and the spirite , because all faith , by the confession of the schoolemen , is either acquisita , which is the effect of the woord read or preached ; or infusa , which is the operation of the spirite , without which the word is not effectual ; for nunquam Pauli sensum íngredieris , nisi Pauli spiritum imbiberis , a man shall neuer vnderstand Paul his meaning , vnlesse hee haue beene touched with Paule his spirite , saith Bernard : for which cause , both the Gospell is called the ground and stablishment of faith . Colos. 1. and the Apostles and Prophets , the foundation of our beleefe Ephes. 2. which was not spoken personally , but as Aquinas well interprets it , of their doctrine & writings , this being no derogation to Christ his priuiledge , who is the principall fundament , beecause , as the Apostle speaketh of himself , they hauing sensum Christi , do preach nothing els but Christ , and him crucified , 1. Cor. 1. so that whereas other writers are to be read cum iudicandi libertate , with libertie to censure them , as wee please , with choise whether wee will beleeue them or no ; the scriptures must be read cum credendi necessitate , and therefore Canus confesseth , that vltima resolutio fidei , the last resolution of faith , must bee vppon the spirite his inward operation . And Aquinas , that fides non debet inniti , our faith must not be settled vpon any other writinges or decrees , then the authors of the Canonical bookes haue set downe . Whereupon the Bishop before named makes this conclusion , proper to our purpose . Nulla igitur alia &c. no other principles of diuinitie , no other doctrine of any diuines except of Christ , the Prophets , and Apostles , fidem ecclesiae fundat , doth ground or settle the faith of the church Secondly , for the determining of controuersies , wee appeale to the Princes Deputie , the Vicar generall of Christ ; not the Pope , whome in this case they deifie , wee defie him , but Vicarium Domini , as Tertull. calles him , the holy ghost ; and to his sentence , viz. the scriptures , wherein there is that vicaria vis Spiritus Sancti , that power delegate of the Spirit : and thus put the case with S. Augustine . Ista controuersia iudicem requir it ? doth this Controuersie require an vmpire ? Iudicet Christus , let Christ be he : which hath those three perfections required in a Iudge , ( confessed , though ironically , yet truely , by the Herodians , Math. 22. ) giuing a true sentence , wherein we are assured , there is no error ; absolute , admitting no appeale , vpright ; without bias of partialitie : Iudicet cum illo & Apostolus , and with him ioyne the arbitrement of the Apostle , because Christ himselfe speaketh in the Apostle . Excellent is that place of Optatus , are their Controuersies , in poynts of Christianitie ? Iudges must bee procured to reconcile thē , not Christians , they will bee partiall on each side ; not Pagans , they are not capable of these mysteries ; not Iewes , they are sworne enemies against the truth : from earth wee appeale to heauen ; sed quid pulsamus ad Caelum , but why stand we knocking there ; cum habeamus hic in Euangelio , since here wee haue him in the Gospel ? where if wee knocke , the doore shall be opened , by him , whome Theophyl . calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the porter of the Scriptures . And so , for that point , we conclude with S. Basil , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let the holy scripture determine betweene vs , for there we haue controuersiarum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the deuoyement & dissolution of all controuersies , said the noble Emperour Constantine , in the Councell of Nice . For in Gods matters , who more fit to iudge then God himselfe ? Idoneus enim sibi testis est , qui nisi per se cognitus non est . The same we say of the third , for abolishing herefies , the scriptures beeing as proper and sufficient 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to confound an heresie , as it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to found a veritie . For which cause both the spirite and the woord are compared to fire . The spirite , 1. Cor. 3. discerning betweene straw and siluer , stubble and gold : The word , Ier. 23. disgregans heterogenea , seuering the pretious from the vile , the mettall from drosse : being both index & vindex , the discrier of heresies , & the destroyer of them ; the boke of God , by the power of the spirite , being as Dauids sling and stones , able to prostrate Goliah , and repell the Philistines , & therefore , though Councels assembled for confounding heresies , yet the speciall artillerie wherwith they battered those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , lofty imaginations of rebellious heretikes , were fetched from the tower of Dauid , Cant. 4 , this armory of God. For , if the high priest discerne not of the leprosie , or crime secundum legem , according to the law , though his authoritie were great , yet his sentence was frustrate ; it beeing not free in matters of religion for men to determine , or condemne what they will , but iuxta leges , so farre forth as the law prescribes thē , saith a Papist on that place : otherwise it might proue a tyranny ouer the conscience 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be Lordes ouer the faith of men , to inforce them without scripture . So then , we conclude this point with that precept of the wise mā . His amplius fili mine requiras , seeke no farther , nor other meanes then these , the spirite and the scriptures , for the true Catholike church admittes of no other , howsoeuer that Church , thus nick-named , the whore of Babylon , enamored with strange louers , doth boast herselfe of traditions , and councels , and fathers . For our Sauiour Christ by his diuine prouidence did foresee , that heresies were to arise in his church , as his Apostle S. Paule a doth warne vs : the which as plagues were to infect his flocke , and therefore he not onely forewarned vs of them , but also gaue vs meanes how to preuent and extinguish them . Hee willed vs to heare his Church , if wee would not be accounted as Ethnikes b and Publicans . He ordained Pastors and c Doctors , least we should be carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine . He promised vnto the churche , the d assistance of the holy Ghost , in such sorte , as e they which would not heare her , would not heare him . Aunsweare . Vmbratilis lucta , as the prouerbe is , all this we yeelde , acknowledginge , that ●ruth must bee planted : that heresie must bee extinguished : that the teachers and pastours must bee authorized : that Councels may bee assembled ; that the Church must bee obeyed : yet with prouisoes , that the trueth bee no other then the Gospell wee haue receyued . Nothing counted heresie , which is religion sincerely professed , Act. 24. that those Pastors , haue the Vrim & the Thummim . Deut. 33 , science and conscience , feeding their flocke diligently and holesomely , 2. Tim. 4. that councels bee lawfull assemblies , Act. 19 , congregated by command of Princes , not hurried by the Pope ; not a rabble of illiterate Friers ; not a banded rout of preiudiciall priestes ; not a factious bench of partiall vmpieres ; not ouer-swaying the scriptures by authoritie and nomber , but ouer-awed by the scriptures ; admitting that sence quem ex dictis retulerint , non attulerint , which they can worke out of them naturally , not inferre vppon them peruersely . Lastly , that the Church haue roometh vniuersally extended , not confined to Rome straightly pynioned . But that place out of Math. 18. dic Ecclesiae , is here a guest , though boldly inuited , yet not lawfully arrayed ; that precept commaunding a reference , and obedience to church gouernours , in quarrels personall , not questions Theologicall , for reconcilement of mutuall offences , not determining spirituall controuersies . Wherein if either party be found , auther malitiously implacable , or vnreuerently obstinate , hee is to bee cast out as an Ethnike and Publican , vnfit for the company of Christians whose character is charitie Ioh. 13. whose duetie is obedience Heb. 13. The Catholikes therefore beleeuing certainely that the Church cannot erre , that the generall Councels cannot deliuer false Doctrine ; that the Pastors and auncient Fathers , with ioynt consent cannot teach vntruethes , when heresies spring vp , presently with the voice of the church a pluck them vp euen by the rootes ; and so euer hath practised , and after this manner hath ouerthrowne all encounters , false opinions , and errours , which the deuill by his ministers euer planted , or established in the world , and so they haue bene freed from all braules and quarrels in matters of religion . Aunsweare . Those verily are the meanes , wherein al the pseudocatholickes concurre for decision of controuersies , all which haue before beene satisfied , therefore the present aunswere is easie , and not necessarie : easie , for those meanes are mens , meerely humane : the practise of the church , the custome of men ; the definition of councels , the iudgemēt of men ; the sentēce of the fathers , the censure of mē ; partiall in affection , preiudiciall in opinion , changeable by repeale of a second sentence ; challengeable by appeale to an high iudge , lawfully to bee reuersed by a sounder , though a lesse nūber : whereas the arbitrement of the scripture , which is ours , is the infallible rule of truth , and uerdict of the holy Ghost ; none more direct , more constant , more absolute . Easie againe , it hauing beene often shewed , that both the fathers , of Which they so vainely bragge , Saepe loquuntur , non quod sentiunt , sed quod necesse est , sayth Saint Ierome . That the Church so called by them and the councelles , which represent that church , haue verie often beene deceiued . Some confirming the blasphemie of Arrius , no les thē ten in number ; others establishing rebaptization of hereticks , in the concurrence of three councelles , sayth Pamelius ; with the consent of huge assemblies , saith Eusebius ; and among the rest , the councell hee here nameth in the margent , the first Nicen : some prohibiting second mariage , as that in Neocaesaria ; others disauowing returne to warre ; others rearing vp Idolatry , and giuing Angels and the soules of men bodyes , as the second Nicen ; and in this theme might be infinite , but I shut it vp with that speech of Saint Augustine , Sed haec humana iudicia deputentur , & circuuenire , &c account no otherwise of these , then of mens iudgements , either circumuenting by false glosses , or circumuented by corruptions ; for which cause Pelagius the Pope delt wisely , who would not stand to councelles for the prerogatiue of his place , but fetched it from the Gospel . Not necessary : this differēce about authoritie of councelles , and soueraintie of the church , being but a muster , no skirmish ; no disputation , but a shewe : for when Bellarmine hath runne himselfe out of breath , by putting out all his reasons in the behalfe of Councelles ; and Stapleton ingaged his whole credite with putting in his 15. Cautiōs , about the iudge of controuersies ; all their Items are at last closed vp within the Pope his Ephod , or his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his papall soueraigntie , or his sentence peremtorie ; for hee is lex animata in terris , the liuing law vpon the earth , containing all lawes with in the compasse of his breast ; his authoritie by his flatteres proclaimed to bee greater then the Angelles ( Councels are shadowes ) in foure things , the iurisdiction , the administration of the sacraments , in knowledge , and in reward : by whome not onely the Bookes and writings of all authours , are to be approoued or disauowed ; but euen generall councelles haue their efficacie and confirmation : and the interpretation of the sayde councelles subiect to his determination : because the iudgement of Councels , and persons , beeing meerely humane , may foure waies be corrupted , by feare , by fauour , by malice , by largesse . Onely his sentence is to be admitted as from Peter his owne mouth . God himselfe and he , the Pope , hauing but one consistorie , without whose countenance and authoritie , the scriptures are but as Aesops fables , in the opinion of Hermannus & Hosius ; the Councels but conuenticles their decrees like liuing mens wils , and the fathers no body : wherefore as the orator sayde , that pronuntiation had the first , second , and third place in Rhetorick : so in definitiues of Religion , the erection of fayth , the compoundinge of controuersies , the abandoning of heresies is wholly the Popes : the rule of fayth , what the Pope alloweth ; the interpretation of the fathers , which the Pope followeth ; the definition of councelles , which the Pope confirmeth ; the practise of the Church , what the Pope auoweth . But bee it the Popes omnipotence , or assembly of councelles , or consent of Fathers , or tradition of the Church , wee say with Saint Augustine , that none of these are to be preferred before Christ , cum ille semper veraciter iudicet , sithence his iudgement is alwayes true and irrefragable , Ecclesiastici autem indices , sicut homines , plerunque falluntur , but ecclesiasticall iudges , as men , are often deceiued ; whereby we nothing impaire the dignitie or necessitie of Councels , acknowledging them with Saint Austen to bee saluberrima , most soueraigne antidotes against the poyson of heresies ; yet wee subiect them to the spirit and the scriptures , which alone haue this priuiledge , non errare : for the heresies which the Councels , he specifieth , did cōdemn , vanished not by their authoritie personall , but the power of the word , the principall weeding hooke that cuts vp the tares , Math. 13. so were the patrons of circumcision confuted , in that Councell Act. 15 by Moses lawe ; so the Arrians , in the Nicen Synod , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , receiued their deaths wound by the sword of the spirit , which is the word of God , Eph. 6. But the Protestants admitting of the sole Scripture , as Vmpire and Iudge in matters of controue●sie , and allowing no infallible interpretor thereof , but remitting all to euery mans priuate spirit , and singular exposition , cannot possibly , without error , winde themselues out of the Laborinth of so many controuersies , wherwith th●ey are no so inueagled and intricated . Aunswedre . Ignorance ioyned with malice is importunate : this section concerning the authoritie and Interpretation of Scriptures , hath receiued a sufficient answere , ridding vs from all blame , for admitting that which Christ commaundeth , whose will is that we should search the scriptures , Iohn 5. which are not onely witnesses of him , but Iudges for him : therefore called the rule of life and beleefe , discerning the crooked from that which is straight ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as saint Paul termes it , Phil. 3 , the one rule , not partiall , as Bellarmine calles it , but totall & perfect . Else were it no rule , sayth Theophylact , if it admitted either appositiō or ablation : the ignorance thereof is the cause of error , by our Sauiour his iudgement , Math. 22. the inquirie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of a more exact addition thereuuto , is heresie in the opinion of Basil : it driueth from the Church as Christ the marchandize out of the Temple , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all iarre which might engender controuersie , sayth Constantine the famous Emperour ; by it onely were the Arrians quelled , as Theodoret witnesseth ; & to it , from the Councelles , Saint Austen reuoketh Maximinus the hereticke , not doubting there to giue him the ouerthrow ; for whether shall wee goe ? sayth Peter , Iohn 6 thou hast the wordes of eternall life : which woord written teacheth all thinges that concerne both our faith , the life of this our pilgrimage , 2. Cor. 5. and our saluation , the glory of our purchased heritage ; working in vs , sayth Damascene , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ● euerie excellent vertue , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all sincere knowledge , without spot or error ; and as the night extinguisheth not the starres , it is the comparison of Zepherinus a Pope : so no worldly pollution , no soul heresie cā obscure or infect the mindes of the faythfull , sacrae scripturae firmiter inhaerentes , which holde themselues fast to the holy scriptures . Other testimonies thou mayst beleeue , or not beleeue , according as thou shalt trust them sayth Austen , but these are subiect to no humane iudgement , beeing the sole and supreme iudge of all writings , and decreementes , saith hee else where , and so the fittest Vmpire in all controuersies . The same wee say of Interpretation , appealing to the spirite working vppon the heart , and the Scriptures explaning themselues , the twoo most infallible interpretours . For if that rule of the lawyers bee sound and currant , Eius est interpretari , cuius est condere , hee may best expound the law , which made it ; surely the speaches in holy writt , being the motions and dictates of the spirite , 2. Pet. 1 no expositor can be so sound and infallible as himself , who best vnderstandeth his owne secretes . 1. Cor. 2. and therefore Ierome thinkes , that any sence which he giueth not , that wrate it , is an heresie . Where if Bellarmine his obiection be recōmenced , that the holy Ghost speaketh not ; and that the scriptures are , as the philosopher said of law bookes , Mutimagistri , dumme schoolemasters ; Iudex mortuus , a dead iudge , as Canus cals it ; that is false : for God , saith the Apostle , spake vnto vs by his prophets , & now by his sonne Heb. 1 , not viua voce , for they were deade , but by their writinges : and the word of exhortation speaketh vnto vs as vnto children . Heb. 12 , and the law hath a mouth , Deu. 17. & the scripture , saith Chrisostom , seipsam exponit , expoundes it selfe , not permitting the auditor to erre , and doth present Christ vnto vs , being vnderstood and opened 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by the holy Ghost , saith Theophyl . For the teacher may bee a latere tuo , but if there bee nullus in corde tuo , thou canst not vnderstand , saith Austen . But because the holy Ghost appeared sometime in the forme of a Dooue , therfore they take it , hee hath that qualitie of dooues : Aspicis vt fugiant ad candida tecta columbae , to delight and reside , only in glorious assemblies , in general councels , or in the radiant dooue-cote of the Popes braine ; but the Apostle giues that priuiledge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to euery spirituall , though a priuate man ● . Cor. 2. For hee respectes not persons , no● places , nam & vos vnctionem habetis , sayth S. Iohn , you also haue the annointing , & those were priuate men . Which annointing , teacheth you all thinges , neither neede you , vt quis , that any man , or Angell , or Councell , or Pope , should teach you : and therefore the scripture , beeing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the rule which cannot erre , the spirite inwardly , and the woord outwardly are the most infallible interpreters for exposition , and by consequent , the onely arbiter for controuersies ; beecause hee which knowes the trueth , may soone discerne of a lie , by S. Iohn his rule , for that no lie , is of the truth . And they which know the truth , saith Aquinas , habent sc●ētiam discernendi , & agnoscendi haereticos , haue the perfect vnderstanding to discerne and know heretikes , and by knowing them to auoide them : for that cause , by Dauid , called a guide to our pathes ; by S. Peter , a light in darken●s ; by S. Austen the ballance to weigh all opinions , whether light or heauie ; the touchstone to trie the mettall , whether base or pure , whether currant or counterfaite , saith Chrysostome ; the only Ariadnees threed , to extricate our inclosure within any maze of empestered errors ; & the Alexanders sword , to cut the Gordian knot of the most inexplicable ambiguities . Vppon all which premisses wee conclude , that the scriptures , hauinge such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sole sufficiencie in themselues , & authoritie from the spirite , thereby haue potéstatem decernendi , power to iudge ; and for the exact knowledg they affoord , haue vim discernendi , faculty to discerne betwene trueth and falsehood ; therefore the Protestantes to bee commended , for admitting them the sole Vmpiere in-controue●sies , & the most certaine interpreters of themselues . Onely wee pray with Dauid , renouncing our owne insight , Open thou our eies , that we may see the woonders of thy law ; viz the assistance of the spirite , which both giues the sence thereof , and mooues the assent therevnto saith Bernard . And the i●reconciliable iarres betwixt them and the Puritanes , in essentiall pointes of faith , giue sufficient testimonie , that they will neuer haue end , or can haue an ende , holdinge those groundes of opinion , which they obstinately defend . Aunsweare . Hypocrites vse to see extramittendo , Math. 7. but if this Lamia , would keepe his eies in his head , whē he is at home , as he puts thē on , going abroad ; hee might there behold the iarres and differences of Thomist and Scotist ; of Franciscan , and Dominican ; of regular , and secular ; of Iesuite , and Priest , among thēselues , in matters very essentiall & capitall : There he might see Pighius taxed about Adams fall ; Chisamensis censured about the death of the bodie for sin , which he denied ; Catherinus vexed about the assurance of grace ; Durand snaped , about originall sinne , and merite in the workes of grace ; Caietan much molested , about the sufficiencie of scriptures ; and so I might goe on : whereas the iarres among vs , though vnkinde , yet not in this kinde , onely for ceremonies externall , no pointes substantial : that fire 1. Cor 3 hath tried thē to be but stubble , and straw controuersies ; the word of God , hath appeased them , and will confound them , if malice and preiudice make not men irreconciliable . And albeit some like hedgehogs ( as Pliny reports of them , who beeing loaden with nuts & fruite , if the least filberd fall off , will fling downe all the rest , in a pettish humour , and beat the ground for anger with their bristles ) will so leaue our church and remaine obstinate for trifles and accidents , things in themselues indifferent , though the princes authority haue now made them necessary : Yet this is our comfort , first , that the Gospell preached among vs ( like that fire in the mount Hecla , recorded by Surius , which drinkes vp all waters , & deuoures al wood cast vpon it , but cannot consume flax , and tow ) hath dispersed the grosses heresies of Popery & superstition , though these flaxen rags of ceremonies & shewes , lie glowing , in the embers of some malicious and hot spirits , not consumed . Secondly , that we make the scriptures the sole iudge , not appealing to Councelles , nor relying vppon mens authorities : which hauing doone , we conclude with Paul , Siquis sec●s , if any bee otherwise minded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God will reueale it , and pacifie them ; and if obstinately minded , we wish his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that God will reuenge them , and cut them off . The truth is , the Puritanes snarling hath fed the Papists humor , and stuf●●● 〈◊〉 bookes with reproches , who otherwise had wanted matter to vpbraide our Church withall , if the other had learned of the God of peace , to haue kept the vnitie of the spirite , in the bond of peace . And finally , they haue no argument to proue , that they haue the true church , true religion , true faith , which all hereticks which euer were , will not bring to condemne the Church of Christ as well as they . For example , they alleage scripture , so did the Arrians : they contemne Councels , the Arrians did not regard them : they challenge to themselues the true interpretation , the same did all the Hereticks to this day : and to conclude , they call themselues the little flocke of Christ , to whome God hath reuealed his truth , and illuminated thē from aboue , all which the Donatists with as good reason , & better arguments , did arrogate vnto thēselues . The ●ame I say of the Pelagiās , Nestorians , Eutichians , with all the rable of the damned hereticks . Answere . The Church in this land hauing the two principall notes of a visible particular Church , the worde diligently preached , the sacraments duely administred , is more absolutely perfect , and more gloriously renowned , then the Romish Synagoge ; notwithstanding that Bozius the strumpets herald , hath charged her eschucheon with a fielde of 57 coates , and displayed them in his standard , as the ensignes of Christs Catholicke Church ; for that rule of Saint Ierome being sounde , that Ecclesia ibi est vbi fides vera est , the church is wher true faith is , which cannot bee planted without the word , therfore the most certaine note of a true church , is where the scriptures do sincerely sound ; Ciui●atem enim Dei dicimus , cuius Scriptura testisest , sayth Austen : the primitiue church was known by continuing in the doctrine of the Apostles , Act. 2. the Lords field distinguished from others by the good seede sowne in it Math. 13. the children of the kingdome , that is , of the church , bred and fedde by that seede . 1. Cor. 4 the law of God ▪ read and heard among the Israelites , was the glorie of their vvisedome ouer all nations , and the speciall note of Gods church , and his presence among thē , Deut. 4. yea , but hereticks also alleadge scriptures : first that is false , for if hereticks were brought to that passe , sayth Tertullian , Vt de solis Scripturis quaestiones suas sisterent , stare non poterant , to be tryed , for their questions , by scriptures onely , they were not able to stand ; and therefore they haue principally indeuoured to abolish , or falsifie them . Dionysius Bishop of Corinth proues it by a cōsequēt , that they , which would abuse and corrupt mens writings ( for at his they had beene nibling , ) much more would depraue and falsifie the Scriptures : Saint Austen found it in them , that they would deface scriptures prosua libidine , as themselues list , to serue their lust : pro voluntatis suae sensu , non veritatis absolutione , sayth Hilary . Instances they giue both , in Mar●io● , Montanus , Photinus , Sabellius , and others ; as for the Manichees , they insisted more vpon their inspired Manes , then the authoritie of holy Writte . And Ruffinus reasoneth thus , ( though by a contrary argument ) yet to the same purpose with Dionysius aboue named , and thinketh it no maruell for hereticks to abuse the writings of that famous scholer Origen , sithence they could not withhold impias manus , theyr prophane hands from the books of God. Secondly , admit they number and quote Scriptures , yet it is but either apishly , as Chrysostome compareth it , by fond imitation of true professors ; or peruersely , by corrupting the alleadged places , mentiuntur , sayth Hilary . Origen will tell him that there is quaedam castitas diaboli , that heretickes will bee exceeding holy , both in the deportment of their life , and in the amoncelment of scripture texts , thereby to insinuate their errors more plausibly into the mindes of men : yet else where he will distinguish to this our purpose properly , there is a difference betweene Euangelizare bona & bené ( the want of an aduerbe as it marres a good action , so a sound interpretation ) accumulating of scriptures is not all one with the right vnderstanding , and the proper applying of them : it being not in this case , as in Arithmeticke , where two are more then one , and three more then two : but as in Gedeons army , Iudg. 7 non numerus , sed virtus , not the coaceruation of places , but the true alleadging , which supports the truth , and distinguisheth heretickes frō sincere professors , ●am de intelligentia haeresis est , non de scriptura saith Hilary , heresie growes , and is grounded vppon a wrong sence , not from the text and letter it selfe ; and this made Origen to say , that heretickes vrging scriptures turned stones into bread , feeding themselues with that which choaked them , and ouerthrowes them ; the reason is giuen by Hilary , quia scripturas sine sensu loquuntur , they number , but misconstrue them , either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eph. 4. cogging a sence deceitfully , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rackinge them peruersely ; or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with a botch , sewing a newe peece to an old garment , by adding to the Texte , that which was not there originally : the three principall properties noted by Ruffinus amonge Heretickes . And yet as Hilary excellently closeth vp that point , malè sanctis rebus praeiudicatur &c. it is a bad argument , and a greater iniury against holy writinges , beecause some men haue profanely abused them , that therefore they should not be vsed at all . Yea rather as else where hee speaketh , Vesaniam & ignorantiā haereticorum properamus expraeconijs propheticis & Euangelicis confundere ; wee make more speede to confute heretikes by them . For the deuil encountred our Sauiour with scripture text Mat. 4 , but Christ made him recule , with the same weapō better handled . The Arrians pretended scripture for their blasphemy , but the scriptures reioyned prooued their ouerthrow ; the reason giuē by Theodoret , their all●gations were but literall , but the opposition was out of the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , religiously vnderstood , and faithfully applied . Briefly for this point of heretikes alleaging scriptures , the philosopher said excellently , Nihil est tam manifestae vtilitatis , quin in contrarium transferat culpa : and Dauid imprecates it for a curse , and God inflictes it for a plague vpon reprobates , that the thinges which should be for their wealth , proue vnto thē an occasion of falling . Therfore as healthfull bodies are not to refuse good meates , because men discrased , of ill stomacks , and worse liuers , tourne the best aliment into bad humours : so though heretikes tortuously peruert scriptures , for their owne defence ; yet we must not cease to relie vpon them , and recourse vnto them , and , as S. Basil wisheth , to confirme all matters of faith by their testimony , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , both for the establishment of the sincerely affected , and the discomfiture of the heretically infected . The three other obiections following are meere cal●mniations ; for , concerning the contempt of Councels , First there is an ignoraunce in the comparison betweene the Arrians and vs , for they regarded and vrged councels , and so had good cause to doe , their blasphemy hauing ben supported by so many . And it seemeth by S. Austen his appeale frō Councels to scriptures , that Maximinus the Arrian much insisted vpon the councel of Arimine : then a slaunder against our professors , because , though we make not Councels the groundcels of our faith , yet we reuerence & embrace them , except before excepted . For albeit a priuate man indued with the spirite of God , and girded with the sword , that is , with the word of the spirit , may confound an hereticke ; yet in a publike assembly the sentence is more solemne , the consent more weightie , stil adding this withall , that the iudgement awarded by them , is but ministeriall , and instrumentall ; but the law , according to which they iudge , must be the word written . And thus wee regard Councelles , so farre forth as they bee directed by the spirit of Councell Esa. 1● . for if wee receiue the writings of men , the testimonie of God is greater , Ioh's . the other for priuate interpretation , hath had his repulse before , we challenge it not to our selues , but refer it to the spirite of God , & say with S. Bernard , cognoscite Dominum in fractione panis , for the bread of life , which we breake vnto the people , though it be nostris manibus , yet it is Dei viribus , it is done by our hands , but with his strength . And for the Laitie Canus often confesseth , that the anoynting teacheth euerie priuate man , in whom he is , easily to vnderstand whatsoeuer is properly necessarie for his saluation in the scriptures . If heretickes should not arrogate the spirite vnto themselues , there should bee no verie great vse of that excellēt gift , discretio spirituum , the discerning of the spirits , to trie whether they be of God or no. 1. Iohn 4. As for the third of the little flocke , it is a fancie of his owne dreame , no claime of ours . Perhaps against that vaine flourish of visible vniuersalitie , whereof the Church of Rome so boasteth , we haue obiected , that it is no certaine note of Christs Church , because many , as Vegetius speaketh , in this militant state march promilite , which are not milites ; nor all are Israell , which are of Israell , Rom. 9. that Christ , in the mustre of his souldiours , findes many t●multuarios et euocatos , such as are good for a push and away ; many called ; but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a few enrolled & billed , Apoc. 3. that in the suruiew of his heards , there are many pinfolds , & store of sheepe-skinnes , yet but a little flocke , Luk. 12. that though there bee many thousandes to bee saued , yet , in comparison of the millions damnable , they are but few Luk. 13. that sullen pride of factious humours , who will sequester themselues from the multitude , as the purer , because the fewer , wee condemne and disauow . Our number we doubt not , but it is as great as theirs , and that euen in the Court of Rome , there are which loath the abominations of Rome . That bragging vaunt of vniuersalitie , wee account to bee the raskales reason in the Poet , Nos numeras sumus● which esteeme of voyces by number , not weight ; the Pagans clamour for Dianaes shrines , whom all the world worshippeth , Act. 19 Constantius his argument for Arrius against Athanasius , that all the world had receyued that opinion , and the whore of Babilon , the Church of Rome , the Chimaera of hethenish superstition in her ceremonies , of hereticall positions in her religion , her challenge , though most false , that her wine hath been drunke iu all corners of the earth : what sayth Saint Austen ? Turba premit Christum , pauci tangunt , there are many which croude Christ , there are but fewe touch him ; and for the last clause of thrusting vs into the number of damned heretickes , if I should trace his steppes , it were easie to demonstrate , that as the Nabis in Egypt , hath the shape of diuers beasts ; and Hanniballes armie consisted ex colluuie omnium gentium , of the very baggage of all nations : so the whole body of Poperie is nought else , but a verie amassed lumpe of Pagan rites , and olde heretickes dregges , as in their Purgatorie , Idolatry , sacrifice for the dead , holy water , free will , challenge of the Church , merite of workes , renouncing of scriptures , &c is euident to an vnpartiall scholler ; but being not so proper to the scope of this Article , I conclude the whole in this manner , that sithence by Austens confession , ecclesiasticall iudges are but men , and may soone be deceiued ; that Councelles , as Hilary excellently noteth , are oft contrarie to themselues ; that the Pope , their sacra anchora , their Church Oracle , is like as hee spake of Egypt , a splitting reede , Esa. 36. daungerously erronious ; therefore the sole meanes for the establishing of fayth , and of the minde in doubts , and against heresies , are the books of God. for in the deluge of these waters deepe , deceitfull , wauering , where should the Doue rest , but on Noahs Arke , or the minde of man repose it selse , but on the word written ? quod proficit ad fidem , ad vnitatem , ad salutem , sayth Hilary , which au aileth for faith , there is the setling of our beleef , and for vnitie , there is the diuision of controuersies , and the repulse of heresies , the twoo speciall breaches of Godly vnitie . And now I had thought these articles of fayth had beene ended , but hee had a spare syllogifme , which hee knevve not vvhere to marshall , and that he hath annexed to this Article , like a Goose feather to a Woodcocks tayle . And to conclude these Articles of fayth , I say that if the principles of the Protestantes religion bee true , Saint Paul himselfe exhorteth vs to infidelitie , which I proue thus . Whosoeuer exhorteth vs to doubt of that which we are bound to beleeue by fayth , exhorteth vs to infidelitie : But S. Paul doth exhort vs to doubt of our saluation ( which we are bound to beleeue by fayth , according to the protestants Religion , ergò S. Paul exhorteth vs to infidelitie . The maior is plaine : for to doubt of matters in fayth , is manifest infidelitie , because whosoeuer doubteth , whether God hath reuealed that which indeede hee hath reuealed , beeing sufficiently proposed , as reuealed , virtually doubteth whether God sayth truth or lieth . The minor is prooued by the testimony of S. Paul , a Cum timore & tremore salutem vestram operamini , with feare and trembling worke your saluation . All feare , whether it bee filiall feare , or seruile feare , includeth doubt , the one of sinne , the other of punishment . Aunsweare . The hottest fire cannot consume a dead mans heart , which hath bene poysoned ; nor the spirite of grace allay the blasphemy of a feared conscience , cauterized with malice , not sparing to accuse euen the greatest Apostle of infidelitie . Yea but he doth it not simply , onely vpon condition , that is , if the principles of the protestants religion be true . Their principles are , that there is but one God , and three persons ; that Christ is the Sauiour of the world ; that hee was incarnate and crucified ; deade and glorified , &c. Is S. Paul an infidell , because we lay these groūds of religion ? his meaning is of principles differing from Popery . First then , that is his leaudnesse , or his ignorant rashnesse , indefinitely to attache all the principles , as accessarie to infidelitie . Secondly , it had beene plaine dealing to haue named them : for , because we set down , that there is but one purgation , and that in this life , the bloud of Iesus Christ , no Purgatory after to be expected ; that there is but one sacrifice propitiatory once offered , videlicet , the body of Christ crucified , no masse to be reiterated ; one mediator betweene God and man , the man Iesus Christ , no Saintes to bee inuocated ; that faith onely iustifieth , no workes coadiuuating ; these are our principles , or rather , the scripture positions differing from the Romanistes , doth S. Paul therfore exhort vs to infidelitie ? I prooue it thus , saith hee whosoeuer exhorteth vs to doubt &c , Here is that speech of reuerend Synesius verified , cùm ex plaustro , quod aiunt , conuicijs sit insectatus , multaque in nos sit vociferatus , when hee had with full mouth , and open crie , challenged all the principles of our religion for infidelitie , at the last , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the base sophister , shewes vs a Mouse for a Lion ; and seazeth vppon one onely principle , namely , the assuraunce of saluation . Which when it is examined will proue but the Cyclops out cry , in the Poet , after his sole and onely eie was stroken out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , no bodie , no bodie . For first , this question , whether the certainetie bee of hope , or of faith , is not iointly and generally determined . among all protestantes . Againe , that we are to ascertaine our selues therof , euen by faith , is the opinion of some eminent Papistes . Durand , is censured by Medina , and registred in his rew of erroneus Doctors for it . Catharinus and Gropperus , mightely oppugned the contrary as●ertion in the Trentish conuenticle . Lastly , the syllogisme it selfe , is both fond & false : fond in the Maior , for doubting may bee in pointes of faith without infidelitie or heresie , as before out of Melchior Canus hath bene shewed , because infidelitie , is commōly lincked with pertinacie : then the probate of the Maior , in that faith is not tyed to thinges reuealed alone , beecause multa creduntur quae in scriptur is non leguntur , saith Austen many thinges are beleeued , not reuealed in scriptures . False in the Minor , because that text of S. Paul , marginally misalleaged , Phil. 2 is no motiue to doubting , but an exhortation semblable to that duetie prescribed to euery mā by God himselfe Mich. 6 , sòlicitè ambulare coram Deo , to walk warely before the Lord , as a sonne before his father , with feare to sinne , not of sinne , that is , least by sinning , he should be counted vnworthy the graces wherewith he is endowed , and the fauour whereof hee is vouchsafed ; not of sinne , as if it were able to cast him finally from God , and so make him either to dispair , or doubt of his saluation ; for being iustified by faith , hee hath peace with God. Rom. 5. and hauing semen manens , 1. Ioh. 3. he cannot sinne irremissibly : besides this , Bellarmine himselfe , frō whome this impious argument is borrowed , puts a difference betweene feare and doubting ; for , saith he , the receiued opinion in the church about this certainetie of saluation , albeit , it remoue not all feare , yet it vtterly taketh away all anxietie , and haesitation , & ipsam etiam dubitationem , and euē doubting it selfe : and therefore , though the Apostle will vs to feare , yet hee exhorteth not to doubt , as this mate inferreth . Certainelie , if wee consider the state wherein we stand , we shall finde , as the said Apostle speaketh , without terrours , within feares , & causes of them both euery wher , by Sathan his pollicie , & malice about vs ; by the lustes and affections , raging or tickling within vs ; by the world , either flattering or pursuing vs : but if wee looke vp vnto him that loues vs in his beloued ; to that sacrifice by which wee are reconciled ; that victorie whereby sinne is conquered ; to that spirite wherewith wee are sealed : we may in a Christian confidence , and assurance of faith say , with S. Bernard , turbatur conscientia , sed nōperturbatur , quoniam vulnerum Dei recordabor , my conscience is tossed , not ouerwhelmed , beecause I call to minde the woundes of my God. For how should hee feare , or doubt which hath , as Bernard else where speaketh , geminum firmissimumque amoris argumentum , the twy-fold and most sure argument of Gods loue ? both that faithfull witnesse Apocal. 3 Iesus crucified ; and the pledge of the spirite iustifying him , and testifieng vnto him , that he is the sonne of God. Rom. 8. a pledge ? saith Aquine , yea an earnest 2. Cor. 1. for a pledge is restored , when the due is paide , but an earnest is giuen vpon a price , non auferendū sed complendum , not to bee taken backe , but to be made vp . For which cause S. Augustine calles it Maries part Luc. 10 which in this life augetur is encreased ; in the next perficietur is fully complete ; nun quam auferetur , shall neuer bee taken away . This discourse is ful of comfort for the conscience , but a too full of matter for this briefe aunsweare ; my conclusion therefore , for it is , that which is an article of faith , is to be certainely beleeued by faith : but the assurance to our mindes of our saluation , is an article of faith , where we say Credo vitam aeternam , I beleue the life euerlasting . If I say , I beleue that there is an euerlasting life after death , so much do the deuils confesse , and the Pagans haue testified , yet there is certitudo obiecti assured vnto vs , as beeing promssio Dei , the promise of God : but when I say , I beleeue that the eternall life is prepared and belongeth to me , this is certitudo subiecti , & this is opus fidei , the worke of faith ; which hath both this powerfull force to tourne Dauids quorum into S. Paules ego . Blessed are they , saith the prophet quorum , whose sinnes are forgiuen ; quorum ego , of which I am the chiefe , saith the Apostle : & also this skill to make a garmēt of Christ to put him on Rom. 13. For that is a great comfort , & a faithfull saying , that Christ came into the world to saue sinners ; yet , that is Christ in the broad-cloth , in the whole peece : now comes faith and cuts it out , and applies it specially , which loued me , and gaue himselfe for me Galat. 2 , here is Christ put on . So then faith assuming a particular minor , out of the maior generall proposition , and making that present which is absent ; ( for that cause said to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 11. 1. ) the assuraunce which it giues , is not onely spei , of hope in expectation , but scientie as if it were now in possession , in so much that with the Apostle we may say , We know that when hee shall appeare , we shall also appeare like vnto him in glory . VVhich assurance worketh in vs , neither presumption vpon his fauour , whose maiestie is dreadfull , whose iealousie is a consuming fire ; nor carelesse securitie in our course of life , whose standing is so slippery , whose occasiōs to sinne so many . For the holy man Iob , who looking vnto his euerliuing redeemer , confidently proclaimed it , though hee kill mee , yet will I put my trust in him Iob. 14. yet viewing his owne infirmities , and propensity to sinne , confesseth of himselfe Iob. 9 , Verebar omnia opera mea , I feared all my workes : which feare , as also this of feare and trembling in the text cited , importeth no suspence of a doubtful , but a reuerent awe of a carefull mind , sollicitous to please , and warie to offend : which , both the phrase of speech , elsewhere vsed , implieth , as in 1. Cor. 2. where the Apostle conuersed and preached among them in feare and much trembling . Of what ? Doubted hee his calling ? impossible , for he had it ascertained him , not by mediate instruction , but immediate reuelation Gal. 1. or his doctrine ? vnlikely , hee knew it to bee the power of God vnto saluation Rom. 1. or their persons ? a base conceite , for if hee sought to please men , he could not be the seruaunt of Christ Gal. 1. but beeing an Embassadour from God , and to deliuer his message , as in the presence of God , he carefully looked both to himselfe , in the deportment of his life ; and to the diuine maiestie of wordes in the manner of his preaching ; that neither by his prolapsion into any sinne , his doctrine shuld be scādalized , nor through vanitie of rhetoricall flourish ( the flags and rags of the false Apostles ) the dignitie of the Gospel should be amoindred & made frustrate . So the Corinthians intertainement of Titus , was with feare and trembling , 2. Cor. 7. if they doubted of his function , they neede not feare , they might haue renounced him ; for intrusion without iust authoritie , strikes no terrour . It was , as a Frier expoundes it , both the reuerend regard of his person , beeing the dispenser of Gods mysteries ; aud a duetifull obedience to his doctrine , being the word of life , lest they should seeme vnworthy of an embassy so comfortable , of a messenger so diuine . As also the purport of the Apostle his counsell in this chapter Phil. 2. which , sum marily , is nothing els but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they should be like minded to Christ vers . 5. in shewing that humilitie and carefulnesse of vpright behauiour in Paul his absence , as if he were present vers . 12. least liuing in the midst of a froward and wicked nation vers . 15. the Apostles labour by their carelesse leuitie , or carnall securitie , should bee deuoyded & abased vers . 16. this solicitous reuerence , euē in Tittleman his paraphrase hauing reference to S. Paule his person and their profession , with a feare or warinesse to auoide all scandale , either passiue from their aduersaries , who obserued their māners preiudicially ; or actiue , least thēselues should cōmit any action offensiue to God his maiestie , who had called them ; or derogatiue to the Apostles ministery , by which they were called : so that this feare and trembling , to which he exhorteth , is for ordering their conuersation , a cautele most profitable ; not diffidence of saluation , a motiue most discomfortable . For , questionlesse that mind , which cannot rest ascertained of his future happinesse , is most vnsetled , and miserable , euen in the reach of philosophy . Quid 〈◊〉 refert qualis status tuus sit , si tibi videtur malus ? what profite or comfort is it , for a mā to know , that the●e is a kingdome prepa●ed , Math. 25 , and yet he must doubt whether doome hee shall recei●e , either ite , or venite , goe yee accursed , or come ye blessed ? this beeing the very dictate of nature , in the Comicall poet , Non est beatus , esse se qui non putat , Hee is no happie man , which thinkes not himselfe to be so . The mindes felicitie resting not in the future expectation , but in the present perswasion . And thus haue you his fiue Articles of Faith obiected , like fiue vials of his malice eff●sed ; whereof , the summe totall being , if you make them , the erection of their C●●rch her tribunall , you may conclude as S. Cyprian of the fiue schismaticall Priests , Ecclesiam spondent , vt qui illi credit , in totum ab Ecclesia pereat ; they vrge & wold establish a church , which who so beleeues , takes the ready course wholy to renounce the Church . A conclusion to the gentleman M. F. T with whom this Pamphleter beginnes and endes . Sir , for my salutation must be such , as Phauorinus gaue to an vncouth scholler , quicquid est nomē tibi , what you are I know not , nor wil ēquire ; as you haue , no doubt , perused the pamphlet of Articles directed against vs , dedicated to you , so , if preiudice haue not fore-stalled your affections & vnderstanding , compare this aunsweare ingenuously and with a good conscience , then iudge of both : some diseases are haereditarie , so is not heresie ; for were it so , & you , by coniecture , the heire to an open and stiffe recusant , not the booke of the mightie God , much lesse this aunsweare of a meane man , can mooue or disswade you . If you be , as he pretendes you , a Protestant setled , so remaine ; if you were once , and are fallen , returne ; if you neuer were , repent ; if you neuer will be , perish . Yours in Christ William Barlow . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A04376-e1400 a Publius Mim . b Gregor . Mag. c Can. lib. ● d Thucyd. lib. 1. e Plutar. Auth. f 〈◊〉 g 〈◊〉 . h Hom●r . i Epiphan . lib 1 & Tertullian . pag. ● . Epist. k Theodor ▪ l Hieron . m Contr. Ap. lib 1. Ci●et orat . pro Cael. n B●sil . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 o Aristot. a Zach , 3. 2 b ●ud . ver 9 c Senec● d Plut. lye . e Plut mor. f A pul . Apolog. g Act. 24. h Terent. i Pro. 27. 19 * pag 3. Epistol . k Hieron . l Tho. Aq. 22. q. 11. m Gal. 5. 19 n Tho. ●bi sup . & Alf. de cast . l. 1 o Theoph. ad Rom 13 p Aug. Epiph. * pag. 3. Epistol . q Martial . Ep●g . r De sig . Eccles. s Plat. 〈◊〉 . t A●len , Apolog. u de ciuit . lib 4. * Tull. Tus. quaest ▪ a Plut , Co●ol . b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c Math. 11. 25. d Tull. ora● . Martial . e Tull. de Se●ect . f Eras Eacom . stult . g Annot. in Aug. h Rom. 13. i Tit. 3 k 1. Sam. 24. l Iudg. 3. m Mer●punc ; Gallobelg . * pag. 2. 〈◊〉 . n Plat. Pel●p . o ●er ▪ 48. 10. p 〈…〉 . ● q Apolog ▪ r Nazian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . s 〈…〉 2. t 〈…〉 V. g u 〈…〉 . a 2. Sam. 2. 14. Notes for div A04376-e3100 a Es. 36. 7. Strabo . Herodot . Lact. lib. 1 Es. 59. 10 Seneca . Aqu. Math. 12. a Esa. 7 b Phil. 2. c Galat. 4. d Rom. 10. e 1. Cor. 1 Chrysost. in Rom. 12. Eccl. Histo. Tutrecrem . vid Canū 2 Reg. ● . Plut. de profect . 1. Ioh , 4. Plutar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Gen. 26 ▪ 15. Innoc. 3. * Simplex animal . * An vnpure beast Vid. Eras. in 1. Tim. ● . Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Conform . Fran. fol. 18 Psal. ● . Math. 26. Apoc. 19. Antouin . ●●st . lib. 3. tit . 23. Martin . de anni institut . Ieronym . aduers. to●uin . * Quid tāto dignum ●eret hic pro●●ssor hiatu ? Horat. a Hest. 3. 6. b Act. 17 c Origen . d Euseb. e Prudent . Euseb. lib. 3 Virgil. Psal 19. 4 Psal. 19. 5 Heb. 11. August . Psal. 87. 3 Psal. 45. Euseb. lib. 3 Gal. 1. Veger . lib. 3 cap. 2● Bl●nder . Polydor. Faber . Theodo● . G●lf . Mon. Platina ▪ Naclant . Clugi . Ignatius Dan. 79 Iustin. Archidamus . * 1 Corollar . Prou. 27. 17 Cant. Apocal. Clem. Alex. li. 7. Strom. Bern. Cant. serm . ●8 . Ambr. in Ephes. 3. Iren. lib. 4. Ephes. ● . Psalm 73● Augustin . Psal. 73. Matt. 28 Psal. 131 ▪ Psalm . 80 Te●tall . 2. Tim. 2. 9. Rom. ●1 . ●9 . Ioh. 10. 28. Psal. 119 〈◊〉 . Ioh. 13. 1 1. Ioh. 3. 9 ▪ Ioh. 1● Rom. 8. Matth. 10. Rom. 8. 30 Esa. 54. 2. Luc. 13. 23. Symbol . Apostol . Boetius Iohn . 3 Iren. lib. 3 1. Reg. 12 Act. 19. 27 Nazianz ▪ Cant. 1. 3. Apoc. 12. 6. Gen. 8. 1. R● . 19 ▪ 10 Dan. 3. Ioh. ●0 ●lin . ad 〈◊〉 ▪ Durae . co●● . Whi●ak . In expos . ● . Missali . Pius 2. Psal. 48. 8 and ver 7. 2 Corollar . a 〈…〉 b Math. 16 , ●8 . c Math. 〈◊〉 . 20. Hora●iu● Lu● . ● . Luc ▪ ● . Bernard ▪ Psalm . 45. 〈◊〉 . 53 Iohn 1. Bern. set 1 de adu●● . 2. Es. 60. 11. Act. 10. 28 Cap. 11. 2 Psal. 87. 4. Apoc. 5. 9 Au ▪ ●erm . 〈◊〉 . 23 Es. 4● . 23. Matth. 2 August . yb●sup . Mat. 10. 18. Ioh. 16 ●ct . ●6 . 28 ▪ Po●yd . l●b . 2 Lamprid. Cant. 6. 7 Apoc. 17. 2. ● . 4. 〈◊〉 14 ▪ 〈…〉 Luc. 5. 31. Bernard de ad●e Dom. 2. Cor. ●2 〈◊〉 p● . 278. Franck in 〈…〉 . Clem. Ale. Notes for div A04376-e6660 Plut. Arist. ●len . Aqu. ad Rom● ▪ d● ad Heb ▪ 1. Bernard . Rom. 2. 20. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 . Luc ▪ 1● . Rom. 14 ●●charm . Tull ▪ Acad. qu. August . Luc ▪ 24. Aqui● . 22 qu. 1. Schola to●● 1. Cor. 15 Ps●l . 58. 4. Esa. 53. 1 Act. 7. Ephes. 2. 20. Aqu. 22. ● . 〈◊〉 . 3 Heb. 11. Aqu. ●n Rom ▪ 1. ●ac . 1 ▪ 8. Luc. 22. 23 1. The. 3. 10 Mar. 9. ●4 Heb. 10. 22. Eph. 4. 19 Alph. de Cast ●●b 1. cap. 10 Vid. Can. lib. 12 Ibid. Lib. 6. c. 8 Luc. 22 August . de bap . lib. 2 Spec. Pont. lib. 6. cap. 1. 2. Pet. 3. 16. Nom. 16. 28 2. Pet. 1. 1 ▪ Cor. 12 1. Cor. 2. 1 Cor. 12. 1. Cor. 14 Eph. 4. 14 Amd● . Fric . Bern. ●er . 49 Psal. 39. 3. Cant. 2. 4 Lib. ● . c. 8 Panormit . 2. Cor. 3. 5. 1. Ioh. 2. 27 1. Cor. 2 Cai●tan . praesat . ad pentat . Con● . Nic. Esa. 59 Math. 7 Act. 17. 11 August de dact . chri●t . Chrysost. in 2. Cor. Cypr. ad Pomp. Iob. 6. 19 Cen. 9. Plutar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Es. 8. 19 Ioh. 5. 2. Pet. 1. Can ● 3 c. 8. 〈…〉 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 ▪ Es. 8 , 20 Ioh. 6 , 68 Ioh. 4. 42 1 , Ioh , ● , 27 Exod , 32 Es , 53 Math , 12 Act. 2 Ioh 14 August . Es , 11 , 2 1● Cor , 3. 5 Eph. 1. 13 Rom. 10 Act. 16 Apoc. 3. 7 Luc. 11. 52 Exo. 14. 31. 22 quaest . 6. con●lus . Eph. 2. Aug. 〈◊〉 . 22. Aqu , rbi sup . Rom. 10. Gorr●m ib. Aq. 1. q. 1. a●t . 8. ad . 2 Lib. 2. c. 1. Quintilian ●ull . de Or●● . 〈…〉 〈…〉 lib ▪ 2 〈◊〉 ▪ Es. 8 , 20 Ter●●llian . Cyprian . Ieron . in Ier. 9. Nazian . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . August . in Psal. 57. Cont. Cres. lib. 2. Aq. 22. q. ● 1. Ioh. 5. 9 R●m . 3. Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Plut. T●es . S●eto● . Martial . fol. 140. Lib. 2. c ▪ 16. & 16. Chrys. in 2. ad Cor. hom . 1● . August . epist. 19. Canus . Ie● . 23. Ly●i●ensis . le● . 15. 19 Phil. 3. Adag Eras. 〈…〉 . Epiphanius Gen. 49. Heb. 11 Tertu●ian . Chrys●st . Cant. 4. 4 〈…〉 . 1. Cor. 12 〈◊〉 . 7. Rom. 14 ▪ Ber● . ad patres in monte . 1. Cor. 2. Lib. 2. ca. 8. Iob. 34. ● . Canus vbi sup paulô post . Aristot. 1. Sam. 19. Gen. 19. Nazianzen . August Gerson tract de caus●s . Iohn . 3. Lib. 2. ca. 6. 1 , Cor , 9. In Mat. 16. Pigh●us . Bernard ▪ Durius . 1. Sam. 13● 1 Pet 3. 1● . Aq ● . q. ● . 〈◊〉 . 8. 〈…〉 3. Notes for div A04376-e10770 August . Plut. Ag. & Cleo. Sir Thom. Moore ▪ 〈◊〉 . A●stot . Eras. ex Zen●d . Tit. 1. Quint. li. 4. a Cal. l●b 4 instit . cap 9 Luth. li. de concil . pag. 14 , &c. H●b . 6. Aug 〈◊〉 . 2. Cor. 7. Ephes. 4. 〈…〉 . Psal. 116. Rom. 4. Ephes. 42 Nacl Clug . Ep. 118 Li● . de ba. in Act. 15 Eph. 5. 2. 7 Heb 6. 1 Psal. 84. 6 Pro● . 4. 18 〈◊〉 . 24 6 Heb. 11. 14 2. Cor. 5. 7 2. Tim. 4. 8 2. Tim. 4. 8 Bernar. Eccles. 1 , 13 Mat● 1● . Pro. 26. 23 Art , ● . Canus a ●ontume 〈◊〉 b turp●ssime . P●g . ib. 4. 〈…〉 . cap 8. Act. 14. 15 Gal. 2 Apoc. 19 & 22. Act 11 Molanus de pract . Theolog . a Wherein he desireth the LL , of the Councell to procure speedil● a new trāslation , because that which now is in vse in England is 〈…〉 . Nomb. 1128. 1. Cor. 14 Eph. 3. 10 1. Cor. 12 Luc. 11 2 , Tim. ● Eccles. 12 Hos ▪ 4 , 4 Hard. art ●5 sect , 6 Math. 7 Hosius de 〈◊〉 . ve●na . 1 ▪ ●eg ▪ 19 Math ▪ 9 1. Pet. 2 Conc. Trid Se● . 4 Plut ▪ Lycur . 〈…〉 . Math. 5 15. 1. Pet. 2. 2 , 1. Cor. 1● . 8 Bernard . Rom 10. Eccles. 1. 13. 〈◊〉 . Co● . 1● . 6. 〈◊〉 . 2 Cor. 1● . Schol in . ● . Iohn . 〈◊〉 & . A●st . metaph ● 1. cor . 14. 10 Ro. 10 14. Heb. 4. 12. Rom. 15. 4. 1. Tim , 2. 4 Bas despit . sanct cap : 1. Es. 28. Act. 17 Terent. 1. Cor. 14. 8. 〈…〉 〈…〉 a 〈…〉 〈…〉 . Eras●us ex Plutar●h . Diogenian . Orig , in ●●sh . 〈◊〉 4 Tertullian . Sixtus V. in epist. ad editionem ●atican . 89 〈◊〉 . 9. 36 Ieron . epist , 89. & Aug. Deu 32. 31. Bellarm. 1. cont●rou . general . pag. 170. a Ieron . b August . Gregor . a epist. ad Clem. S●pt . b annotat . 1. in Pand. c defens . ●id . 〈◊〉 . lib. 4 d Th●s . 8. in praef . eg . Bibl. Sixtus V. vbisupr . This is the Maior of this Arti●ler Ses● . Trid. binds the●r , and they confesse it to be corrupt . Notes for div A04376-e13200 Iob. 6. 4 1. Tim. 1. 7 Hierom. 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 Nazian . a ●n epist. Clem. 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 〈…〉 S●r● . 131 1. Pet 3. 15 Ierem. 1● Aqu. 〈◊〉 locum Petri. 〈◊〉 ●u●d deus homo . 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈◊〉 10 2 Cor. ● 2. Co● . 4. 13 1. 〈◊〉 4. 6 1. ●et . 1. 9 〈…〉 Act. 2. 3 Rom. 11 vers . 12. 13 Rom. 11. 33 Ambros. Aq. 22. ● . 2 1. The. 5. 23 1. Cor. 2. Math 622. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 2. 14. Aquin. Psal. 36. 9. 〈◊〉 Barnard . A●ex . ab . Alex. Plutarch Iohn . 20. Es. 8. 20. Vide prae caet . Stapl. Aristot. Tertull. Cyprian . Basil. Tho. Aqui. in Tim. Dionys. Carthus . Esa. 8. 20 Gal. 6. 11 Cyrill . G●oss . disti . 3. ● . veter . Spi●ra serm . 37 Augusti● . Aug. contr . Faust. Tacitus August . de Symb. Iudg. 12. Ruffin . in expo●it . Ambros , serm . 38 August . serm . 18 Leoser . 11 Aug. se. 131 id● se● . ●15 . Hieron , ad Pamma . Aquin. 〈◊〉 q. 1. art . 8. Basil. 〈◊〉 . Apoc. 21. 3 Aqui. ●bi supr . Nomb. 23. Exod. 32 Exod. 4 2. Pet 1 Apo. 22. 18. August . ●erm . 181 Idem . ibid. Hiero● . in Pamma . Rom. 6. August . serm . 131 Luc. 24. 39. Dionvs . Ca●●hus . Phil. 2. 7 Math 26. Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. Reg. 6 Euseb Eccl. hist. lib. 7 Hosius . Math. 13 Bern●rd . in Ca●t . Nomb. 33 ●●eronym . 〈◊〉 Nomb. 16 Luc. 18 Bernard . Esa 6● . ● Iob. 15. ●8 Prou. 26. 〈◊〉 1. Co. 14. 36 Iohn 9. Martial . Aqu. 22. art . 1. q. 10 Alphons . de h●res . ●uripid . 2. Tim. 2. 19 Rom. 2. 〈◊〉 . Rom. 9. 6. Clem. Ale● . Aqu. p. 3. q. 2. art . 3 Vide Canis . a Math. 16 b Psa 60 c Psal. ● ●rasm . ex S●uda . I●en . lib. 4 Tertull. Ioh. 12 Augustin . Cyprian . Athen. dip . Exod. 25 Nomb. 17 Plu● . Mich. 5. 2 Math. 2 Psal. 76. 1 Extra de ma●or & obedientis . 〈…〉 〈…〉 This is his argument . Plat. de leg . Ephes. 4 Rom. 12 2. Cor. 9 1. Pet. 4 Athe. dip . 5 1. Cor. 10 Rom. 6 〈◊〉 Tertullian . August . ad 〈◊〉 . Ambros. de sacrament . Is●idor , Gregory . Ephes. 5. Canus lib. 8 Lombard . Erasmus . Durandus . Alex. Alens . 1. Ioh. 5 Petrus a Soto . Compend . Theolog. Bernard . Dionys. Areopag . Duraeus cōt . Whitaker . Decreta● . tit . de To●neament . §. accedir . a 1. Cor. 10 〈◊〉 . 17. Eras. Adag . Thom. p. 3. quest . 75 Can. lib. 12. Psal. 19 Act. 3. 21 Luc. 17. 21. Eph. 2. 6 Iob. 39. 33 Math. 24. ●8 2. Cor. 5 Exod. 12. 9 August . Lue. 22. 19. Math. 26 August . de verb. 1 om . serm . 33 Ioh. 6. 1● . August . Aqu. 12. quest . 66 1. Cor. 12. Eccles. 12 Act. 11. 26 Gal. 5. 24 Gal. 3 Eph. 3 Gal. 2 August . ad infant . & de conseer , distinct . 2. 1. Cor. 1● Lombard . li. 4. dist 11 Ambros. in 1. Cor 11 〈…〉 August . in . Ioh. tract . ●9 . idem 〈◊〉 . tract . 26. 〈…〉 〈…〉 a 〈…〉 b Mediation . Eph. 3. 2. Tim. 2. 3. 2. Tim. 4. 8. Apoc. 1. 5. Epist. Smyr . Heb. 11. Epiphan . Eccles 9. Aug de 〈◊〉 . 1 Cor. ● . 〈…〉 Mat. ●3 . 〈…〉 〈…〉 2. Basil. Nazians Aquinas . Eckius in Enchirid. Exod. 32. 4. Act. 14. Durae cant , Wh●ttak . 〈…〉 Rom. 10. 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 1. Tim. 2. 5. Heb. 7. 25. Ioh. 14. 6. Ambros. Heb. 2. Rom. 4. vit . Rom. 8. 34. Vers. 26. 〈…〉 Vers. 27. Ioh. 16. Aug. in 〈…〉 . Canon . Miss . b 〈…〉 Tertull● Apoll. Home : Odiss . Plat. Phaed. Virgill . Enerd . 6. Clem. Alex. Origen . 〈◊〉 1. Co● . 3. P●al . 66. 〈◊〉 1. Iohn . 1. Apoc. 7. 14. Aq●inas . Pa. 3. q. 27. art . 3. 1. Cor. 3. 1. Petr. 4. 〈◊〉 〈…〉 . Rom. ● Mat. 25. 2. Cor. 5. Augustine . 〈…〉 Vers. 5. Luk. 16. Apoc. 20. Math. 7. Tim. 4. Rom. 6. August . 〈◊〉 . Nazian● Chrysost. a Tit. 3. A. G●l . Lib. 7. Gal. 3. Rom. 6. 〈…〉 〈…〉 1 Cor. ● . 11. Math. 3. Numer . ●9 . Macrob 〈…〉 Clem. Alex. 〈…〉 Chrysostom Ezechiel . 36 Aquine . Lombard . Hierom. Iohn 5. Cam. ●at 8. Duraeus . contra Whit. lib. 8 Cal● . instit . lib. 4. Schol. in 1. Pet. 3. Pighius Camp. vbi sup . Allen de Sacra . chap. 3. August . de bap . contra Donat. & citat . a Lomb. lib. 4. dist . 4 Lomb. vbi sup . F. Gen. 8. Act. 10. a 〈◊〉 lib. 4. contr . Apol. Iesuit . Lomb. vbi sup . August . de temp . serm . 30. Luc. 23. Ambros. orat ●uneb . Valentin . Duraeus de Paradox . contr . Whita● . 1. Cor. 6. 11 a Ioh. 20. Rom. 12. Colos. 3. Act. 10. & 26. Math. 3. & 4. Act. 2. Glos. de poenit dist . 5. Bon●●en . Cipria● Psal. 51. Rom. 7. Rom. 6. 12. Iac. 3. Pro. 24. 26 G●● . 6. Psal. 19. August . August . Basil Plut. de ●olert . animal . Act. 2. Psal. 51 Plutar. Grego . in Iob Psal. 32. Ioel. 2. 1. Cor. 9. Psal. 69. 10. a Sect. 1. huius arti , Esa. 54 Tit. 3. 1. Pet. 3. Mar. 16. 〈…〉 Psal. 32. 1. Ambr in Rom. 8. Oecum . in Rom. 3. Gloss. in Rom. 8. Gorram . Rom. 4. 11. Pighius sae●● . Rom. 3. 24. 25. Math. 18. 1. Pet. 1. Apoc. 1. 5. Coloss. 2. 14 Mat. 6. 12. August . in Psal. 31. Gen. 3. Phil. 2. Gal. 3. Psal. 38. 5. Ephes. 5. 2. Psal. 32. ● . August . ibid. Flam. in Psal. 32. Rom. 8. Gor●an . Ezech. 18 Aqui. p. 3. Rom. 7. 17. ● Iohn . 1. Conc. Trid. Hilar. in Psal. 66. Iusti. in dialog . ●ryph . Orig. lib. ● ad Rom. ●ersius Abac. 1. ●3 . Psal. 7. 9. Horat. Psal. 148. Psal. 50 Psal. 38. 3. Dan. 9. 7 Bernard . Luc. 16. Lam. 3. 32. Psal. 130. 3. Esa. 64. August . Rom. 7. 7 Iac. 1. 15 2 Cor. 5. 21. Rom. 14. 23 August . in Ioh. Rom. 6. 23 Nazian . 2. part . 2. art Ioh. 8. 42. Ioh. 16. 13. Aelian . li. 1 , cap. 4. 〈…〉 lib. co . c. 19. Ieron . in Gal. Hilar. de Trin. lib. ● . contr . Gentilem . ●asil . contr . Eun. lib. 4. dist . 4. lib. 1. Spin. ibid. Bern. lib. 5. de consid . vbi supra . Cyrill . Phil. 2. ● . Ansel. Monol . c. 18 August . in psal . 68. Cyri. in Ioh. Ioh. 1. 1 Ignat. Dionys. Areop . Hilar. August . Bella●mi vbi super . Durae . Canis . Extr , de S. Tri●●t . c. damnamus Simler . epist . ad Pol●●o● . Bellar. vbi supra . Epiph. haeres . 69. Orig. in Iob. Aug de Tri. Horat ep . li. 1. 〈◊〉 66 24. Ma● . 9. 48. Mat. 25. 41. Art. 3. 156● . Aqui. 22. q. 1. ar 9. Psal 16. Act. 2. Gen. 18. Math. 3. Psal. 18. 5. 1● Sam. 2. 6. Ion. ● 2. August . & Hieron . et● . August . ad Euod . 1. pet . 3. Aquinas . p. 3. q. 52. Ca●●t . in 3. Vide Mi●and . Bonauent . Caietan . Ni●et . in Naz. Isa● , Apoc. 2. Bernard Math. 26. Heb. 5. Luk. 22. Math. 27 Colos. 2. Origen . Math. 12. Bernard . Math. 27 Hieronym . Damase . libro . ● . Athanas. Rabanus . per Thom. Psal. 31. 24. Canus . lib. 1● . B. Bilson . ●lutarch . Notes for div A04376-e22660 Arist. Met. Idem ad Theod. Art. 4. Sect. 1. Ioh● 20. August . epn st . 112. Rom. 10. Bernar. in Cant. August . in 1. Iohn . 1. Math. 23. Isido● . Pelus ●p . 30. lib. ● Aquin. in Rom. 10. ad Patres in montem Colos. 1. 23. Ephes. 2. 20. Aqui. ibid. 1. Cor. ● . 1. Cor. 1. Aug. contr . ●aust . li. 11. Canusli . ● . Aqui. 1. q. 1. art . 8. Can. li. 12. Tertul. de praeser . id em de V●g . vel . Aug. de nupt . & concup Math. 22. August . vbi supra . Optat. Mileu . cont . Parmen . Theo●● l. in Iohn . 10. Basil. ep . 80. Theod. lib. 1. c. 7. Hila. lib. ● . de l'rin●● 1 Tim. 3. 1● 1. Cor. 3. 13 Ier. ●3 . 2● . 1 Sam. ●7 . 2. Cor. 10. Cant. 4. 4. Deut. 17. Hieroni. ab O●e . 2. Co● . 1. ●9 . 〈◊〉 . 12. 12 a 1. Cor. 11. b Math. ●8 . 17. c Eph. 4. 11. d Ioh. 14 17 e luc . 10. 16. Era. Chil. ● . Gal. 1. ● . Act. 24. 14. Deut. 33. 8. 2. Tim. 4 Act. 19. Hila● . lib. 1. de 〈◊〉 . Math. 18. Dist. 19. cap. 〈◊〉 . Ioh. 13. 35. Heb. 13. 17. a Act. 15 In the first Nicen counsell was cōdemned A●●●us : in the Councel of Constantinople Macidonius : in the Councel of Ephesus Nestorius : in the Councel of Chaledon Euty●hes . Vide Aug. li. 2. retract . cap. 10. Vide praeci . pu● Staplet . doctr principi . Hierony . ad 〈◊〉 . ca. 4 Luseb lib. 7 Pamelius in Cypr. Euseb. vbi supra . Aug. 〈◊〉 . 167. Dist. 21. ca. Quamuis . Sext ● . Ab. arbitris . gloss . ca. de cōstit . licet . Antoninus par . 3 sum . Ca. si Rom. dist . 19. dict . 17. C. Synodum . dict . 〈◊〉 . ca. Dec●etales 11. q. 3. c. Quatuor . dict . 19. c. Sic. omnes Dist. 19. c. Sic omnes . Hostie c. Quando . de trans . Dist. 20. ● Decret● . Demosth. Augusti● . Idē ep . ●19 Mat. 13. ●8 . Act 15. Theod. lib. 1. c. ● . ●phes . 6. Ar●ic ● . Ioh. ● . 3● Phil. 3. 16 Theop●●bid Mat. 24. 〈◊〉 . Basil. lib. 1. contr . Eun. Iohn . 2. Theod. li. ● . Aug. co●● . Maxim. li 3. Iohn . 6. 63. ● . Cor. 5. 7. Damas. li● 〈◊〉 . 18. Dist. 38. c. sicut . Augstin . epist. 11● . Contr. Crel . lib. ● . 1 ▪ Pet. 1. 〈◊〉 . 1. Cor. 2. 11 Ier. in Gai. 1 Gellin● lib. 14. c ● Can. lib. 1. ● . Heb. 1. ● . Heb. 12. 5. Deut. 17. Chry●ost . homi● . 13. 〈◊〉 Gen. Theophil in Iohn . 10. August . in ● . Iohn . ● . O●id . 1. Cor. 2. 51 1. Iohn . ● 20. 27. 1. Ioh. 2. ●● Aqui. ibi● . Psal. 119. ● . Pet. 1. August . de Bap. contr . Don. lib. 2. Chryso●t . ● Cor. Aqui● . Psa. 119. 18 Bern● in Cāt. Math 7 Plut. de . curio● . Vide M●●dinam . & Canur● . 1. Cor. 3. Pliny 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . Phil. 3. 1● . Gal. 5. 13. Eph 4. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 in Psal. ●●3 . August . de 〈◊〉 . 3. Act. 2. 24. Math. 13. 1. Cor. 4. ●● Deut. 4. 6. Tertull. de 〈…〉 E●s●bi . li. 4. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 lib. de Trinit . Ruffin . in apologia Originis . 〈◊〉 Hilar. ad Constant. O●igen . 〈◊〉 Ezech. 〈…〉 . Iden● in Rom. 10. Aristot. Natal , C●●●es . Iudg. 7. Hilar. lib. ● . de Trin●● . Origen . in Luc. Hila●ius de Synodis . Eph 4. 14. T●rtu●l . de praeser . c. 17. 2. Pet. 3. 16. Math 9. Ruffin in Apolog. 〈◊〉 . Hi●ari . 〈◊〉 supra Idem lib. 1 de ●●imit . 〈…〉 Theoderet lib. 1. c. 7. Seneca de benef . Psal. 69 Plut. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 〈◊〉 Aug. contr . Maxim. l 3 〈◊〉 . 6. Esa. 1●●2 Ioh. ● . 36. Luc. 24 Bern. in Cant. Canus lib. 2. cap. 8 1. Cor. 1● 1. Ioh. 4. 1 〈◊〉 Rom. 9 Apoc. 3 Math. 7 Luc. 1● . 32 Luc. 13 24. Horat. epis . lib. 1. Act. 19. 27 Theodor. lib. ● . c. 16 Luc. 8. 45 August in Euang. Plin. n●t . hist. Liui●s . August . Hilarius ad Constant. ●sa . 36. 6 Gen. ● . Hilar. vbi supra . a 1. Cor. ● . S●et . Calig . ● . Tim. 4. ● . Ioh. 1 Heb. 9 Ephes. ● Synes . epist. ad Anastas . Hom. Ody● . Med. 〈…〉 Art. 2 , & 3 Aug. contr . Max. lib. 3 Phil ● 12 Mich. 6. ● Rom. 5. 1 ● . Ioh. 3. ● . Lib. 3. de iustifie . c. 1. Ibid. c. 1● 2. Cor. 7. ● Bern. serm . 〈◊〉 . in Cant. Idē ep . 107 Apoca. 3. 14 Rom. 8. 16. Aquin. in Ephes. 1 Luc. 10. 42. August . de verb. dom . a See at large in Bern. epist. 107. & serm . in Cant. 68. 69 Psal. 32. ●● ● . Tim. 1. 15 Rom. 13 Gal. ● . 20 Heb. ●1 . 1 ● . Ioh. 3. ● Iob. 14. 16. Iob. 9. 28 1. Cor. 2. 3 Gal. 1. 12. Rom. 1. 16 Gal. ● . 1● ● . Cor. 7. 15 Ti●tleman ●bide● . Phil. 2. Phil 2. ve . ● 12 15 16 Tittleman ibidem . Seneca . epi. lib. 1. Math. 25. 〈…〉 Notes for div A04376-e27210 Gellius lib. 4. cap. 1. 
A27068	----	Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1684 Approx. 237 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-06 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). 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A27068) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63048) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 305:13) Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 44, 32 p. Printed for Thomas Parkhurst ..., London : 1684. "A short answer to the chief objections in a book entituled A theological dialogue, &c." has separate paging. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. -- Treatise of episcopacy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. -- Mr. Baxter's judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies. Chauncy, Isaac, 1632-1712. -- Theological dialogue. Brownists. Protestantism. 2005-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-03 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2006-03 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion WHET●ER Parish C●●gregations BE TRUE Christian Churches , ●●d the Capable Consenting Incumbents , be truly their Pastors , or Bishops over their Flocks . 〈◊〉 Whether the old Protestants , Conformists , and Noncon●●rmists , or the Brownists , were in the right herein . And how 〈…〉 our present Case is the same . 〈◊〉 by Richard Baxter , as an Explication of some Passages in his For●●● Writings , especially , his Treatise of Episcopacy , misunderstood and misapplied by some ; and answering the strongest Objections of some of them , especially a Book called , R. Baxters Judgment and Reasons against Communicating with the Parish Assemblies , as by Law required . And another called , A Theological Dialogue . CATHOLICK COMMUNION once more Defended , upon ●●ns necessitating importunity . By RICHARD BAXTER LONDON : 〈◊〉 in Parkhurst , at the Bible and Three - 〈◊〉 , near Mercers Chappel . 1684. Communion with Parish Churches vindicated , In Answer to a Book entituled , The Judgment of Mr. Baxter , against Communicating , &c. Mistaking my writings . A Church is not formally , quid Physi●um , but quid morale politicum Relativum , a political Relative being . II. The same name signifieth both the Genus and Species , that are divers by use . III. The same is true of the name [ Pastor . ] IV. Diocesan Churches are of three sorts . 1. Such as have at present but one fixed Assembly , but design to gather more hereafter : Such , Dr. Hammond thought they were in Scripture times . 2. Such as have one Diocesan Governour , or Superintendent over many inferior Churches , and their Pastors . 3. Such as have one only Bishop or Pastor , having no other true Pastor , Elder , Church-Ruler , or Presbyter of Christs Institution under him ; but Chappels which have no such Ruler or Pastor . V. The first sort of Diocesans we have now nothing to do with . The second sort is controverible , some holding it sinful , some lawful , and some ( and very many ) to be of Divine Institution , as Successors of the Apostles , not in the extraordinaries , but in the ordinary parts of their Office : Christ having made an imparity ( or a superiority of some over others ) they think that to say without proof , that he changed that order in one Age , is 1. to charge him with mutability and levity . 2. And to diminish from his Law ( which hath a Curse . ) The third sort of Diocesans , is either 1. of a Diocess ( like a great Parish with Chappels ) so small that one Pastor may possibly oversee it . ( This is tollerable , when more cannot be had ; and when they can , it hurts only ●he well-being of the Church ) : Or 2. it is of a Diocess so great as that one man cannot do what is essential to a Pastor , and so it is undone : This nullifieth that Species of Churches which is of Christs Institution . VI. A particular Church of Christs Institution of the lowest political order , is , [ A competent number of Neighbour-Christians , who by Christs appointment , and their own exprest consent , are associated with one or more Past●● for the right worshipping of God in publick , and the Edification of the Members , by the exercise of the said Pastoral Office , and their mutual Duties to God , to their Pastors , and each others , for the welfare of the Society , and the pleasing and glorifying of God. ] VII . The Pastoral Office as over this first or lowest Church , and as it is in unfixed Ministers , related yet to no one Church more than another , differeth but as the subject matter ( or object ) of their charge doth differ , and not in the fundamental Power or Order . VIII . This Pastoral Office is essentially Ministerial to Christ as the Prophet , Priest , and King of his Church . 1. A Power to Teach . 2. To Lead in Worship . 3. To Guide by the Keys of Reception , Admonition , Exclusion and Restoration . IX . It is not Inconsistent with this Pastoral Office to be Governed by Superiors , whether Magistrates , or Ecclesiasticks ( as others were by Apostles , and by Timothy , Titus , &c. ) Therefore every limitation , restraint , rebuke , or punishment , for Mal-administration , nullifieth not the Office , nor yet allowing an appeal to Superiors . X. To hinder a Pastor from forcible excluding men from Church or Sacrament , and allow him only to do it by Application of Gods word , is agreeable to his Office. XI . It is Power and Obligation to exercise , and not the present actual Exercise , that is essential to the Office in the fundamental Relation : But should the Non-exercise be total and stated , it would not make up a Church in act ; No more than a mere Power to Teach , will make a School in act . XII . He that hath the entire Power , and statedly exerciseth but one part of it , statedly omitting an essential part , may be in Order an empowred Minister ; but his Society is but a half Church : But if it be only an Integral part that he omits , it may be a true Church , tho faulty ; or if it be an essential part , and not statedly , but only by some present impedition . XIII . The name of Church Pastor and Diocesan , being formally Relative in signification , are really divers things , as the Fundamentum , Relate , Correlate , and Terminus , are divers . They are therefore considerable . I. As instituted and described by Christ . II. As understood , described and consented to by sound Orthodox Pastors and People . III. As described by laws and Canons . IV. As esteemed and described by many mistaking Bishops , Clergy and People , some Super-Conformists , and some Misjudging , that the Law saith as they : The word as to these senses is equivocal . XIV . Christs Institution went before mens Corruption ; and is to be held to by all Christians , who own him to be the Maker and Ruler of his own Church : And no man hath Power to null his Institution , nor to warrant 〈◊〉 to make his Church another thing . XV. By Christs Institution every Ministerial Elder and Pastor hath Power . 1. To Teach the People . 2. To Lead them in Worship . 3. To Receive by Baptism , and to Communion , or to refuse on just cause ( tho under Government ) as aforesaid : ( The whole Office I have copiously described in my Universal Concord , 24. years ago . ) XVI . The Parishes that have capable Christians and Ministers consented to by their sumbmission , are such true Churches ; their Neighbourhood and Christianity making them capable matter . Not that a man is of the Church , because he is in the Parish ( Atheists , Infidels , Sadduces , Hereticks and Refusers , may dwell there , ( Its thought that of 60000. that dwell in one London Parish , 10000 Communicate not , and so 40000 or 50000 , are not of that Church ) but those that are capable Consenters , and Communicants . XVII . This sort of Churches we were in Possession of 166● , and till August 24. 1662. And of 9000 Ministers , then 2000 only were put out , the other 7000 continuing in . And of those that were put out , some few gathered part of their old Flock into private Churches , renouncing , and disswading them from the publick : Most gathered no such Churches , but help their old People as they could , not drawing them from the Parish Churches , till the time of the Kings Licences for more open Ministry . Many led them to the Parish Churches , and took themselves for fellow Pastors , with the publick Ministers , and lived in Love and Communion with them . The People were not by the new Law cast out with the Ministers . Most of the people in the 2000 Parishes of the ejected , and almost all in the other 7000 ▪ who before communicated , or were ca●able of it , continuing the Parish Communion . And so are Churches , if they were so before . XVIII . The generality of the former Protestant Bishops , and Clergy , took the Parish Rectors to be true Pastors of the Parish Churche● , as Bishop Usher proved them : The Church of England is confessed to be of this mind , before the Wars . It is not certain that Arch-Bishop Laud thought otherwise : If he did , Hey●n names but five that joyned with him in his main cause , of whom Mountague , if not more , were for the contrary cause in this point . XIX . They then took a Curate to be a Pastor , and to have all that is essential to the Presbyters Office ; And to be a Presbyter and no Pastor , is a Contradi●tion in the sense of Protestants and Papists , except what is said for Lay-E●ders . In France they call all their Parish-Pastors , Curates ; the word sig●ifieth the Curam animarum . XX. No Law since 166● . hath changed any essentials of the Parish-Pastors O●●nce ( and so none hath nulled it ) from what it was in 1640. They that affirm the contrary , must prove it . The Law before , subjected Parish-Pastors to Diocesans : It imposed the Oath of Canonical Obedience , and a promise of the same in Ordination ; It was the same to the Ecclesiastical Courts as now . If any pretend to such singular skill in Law , as to say that there was no Law for the Book of Ordination , which made the ordained to Covenant to obey their Ordinaries , nor any Law for the Canons , I hope he will have more reason than to lay the controversie about Separation on his odd conceit , when all the People in England have in the days of the four last Soveraigns , been forced to submit to these as Legal ; and no such pretender could at any time deliver them . Books have been written , and Pleas used against submitting to the Courts that declared not that they held their Authority from the King ; but the Judges still over-ruled it against them And they that profest to hold it from the King , did many , if not most , mean but the Liberty of publick exercising it , as the Ministry is held under him , or the adjunct Cogent Power , or the Circa sacra . XXI . The Law enableth the Parish-Minister to receive into the Church by Baptism , ( tho under canonical Prescripts , which Dissenters much dislike ) , and to Catechize Youth , and certifie their fi●ness for Confirmation , before they Communicate : It bindeth them to reject all from Communion , who are not confirmed , or at least are not ready and desirous of it ; it tells us who is to be taken for ready , Those that have learnt the Catechism , and solemnly own their Baptismal Covenant . The Pastor hereby hath Power to try all the unconfirmed , whether they are thus ready or not . The Canon requireth him to deny Communion to all that live in any scandalous Sin : The Law and Canon bid him to instruct the Congregation , to lead them in publick Worship , and in the Name of Christ to Reprove , Admonish , Comfort , Administer the Lord Supper , Visit the Sick with Instruction and Prayers . All which , with the aforesaid Power of judging who shall be Communicants , is full as much as is Essential to a Parish-Pastor . Solemnly to pronounce them Excommunicate , beside refusing Communion , is not Essential . If it were , they have Power to do it , after the Bishops Sentence . If it were Essential to do it as ungoverned , or finally , or without appeal , then Apostolick , yea and Magistrates Government would null the Pastors Office. XXII . The altering some words in Ordination , and putting out the name [ Pastors ] from most places in the Litturgy , where they were applied to Parish-Ministers , is no change at all of the Office , much less of its essence . It takes no Power from them , which they had : But it was done by the interest of some men , who thought that Presbyters , who swore the three Kingdoms against Bishops , had taken too much upon them , and in opposition they endeavoured to keep them under , and so would diminish their pretences for Parity . But this changeth not the Species of the Office. And it s known who these men were : And tho some of them are of Opinion , that Diocesan Bishops only may regularly confer Ordination , and exercise Jurisdiction over the Clergy , and that meer Presbyter Ordination with us is null . 1. These same men had a chief hand in debating and wording the Kings Declarations October , 1661. Concerning Ecclesiastical Affairs , and therein the King after debates with Lords and Bishops , distinguisheth the meer Pastoral preswasive Power , from the Episcopal ( which is Cogent ) and alloweth the Rural Deans with the Presbyters of his Deanry , to exercise the said Pastoral perswasive Power , and the other Pastors also to joyn with the Bishops . And the Law still calls them Rectors : The Liturgy yet calls them Past●rs ; the word Pastors , being a Metaphor , they take to be general , Bish●ps and Priests being with them two Orders of Pastors . Therefore because it doth not distinguish them , they usually leave it out , and put sometime Bishops and Curates , and sometime Bishops , Priests and Deacons : The common description of a Bishop by them , is , that he hath the sole Power of presiding and determining in Ordination , and Jurisdiction , s●ne quo non , oft alledging Jeroms , Quid facit Episcopus , quod non facit Presbyter excepta Ordinatione . And yet the Law still binds them , not to ordain without Presbyters Imposition of hands with them . And Arch-Deacons and Presbyters , Surrogates , &c. Excommunicate . And in the Ember-week , they are every day to pray by the Liturgy . [ So guide and govern the minds of thy Servants , the Bishops and Pastors of thy Fl●ck , that they may lay hands suddenly on no man. ] Where Bishops and Pastors cannot be taken for Synonyma , whilst they speak of all that lay on hands . And they distinguish not [ Pastors and Curates ] where they change the words , but [ Bishops and Curates . ] But nothing more proveth what I say , than that the Law yet bindeth all Priests to all that is essential to an Episcopus Gregis , a Pastor of a particular Church ; see the Exhort . in Ord. of Priests , [ We exhort you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ , that you have in remembrance , into how high a dignity , and to how weighty an office and charge ye are called ; that is to say , to be Messengers , Watchmen , and Stewards of the L●rd , to teach and to premonish , to feed and provide for the Lords Family , to seek for Christs Sheep , that are dispersed abroad , and for his Children , who are in the midst of this naughty world , that they may be saved by Christ for ever ; have always therefore printed in your remembrance , how great a treasure is committed to your charge , for they are the sheep of Christ , which he bought , &c. The Church and Congregation whom you must serve is his Spouse and his Body ; and if it shall happen , the same Church , or any member thereof to take any hurt or hindrance by reason of your negligence , ye know the greatness of the fault , and the h●rrible punishment that will ensue : Wherefore consider with your selves the end of your ministry towards the children of God , towards the Spouse and body of Christ , and see that you never cease your labour , your care and dilig●nce , till you have done all that lieth in you according to your bounden duty , to bring all such as are or shall be committed to your charge , to that agreement in the fai●h and knowledg of God , and that ripeness and perfectness of age in Christ , that there be no place left among you , either for error in Religion , or viciousness of life : Forasmuch then as your office is both of so great excellency , and of so great difficulty , ye see with how great care and study ye ought to a●ply your selves , as well that ye may shew your selves dutiful and thankful to the Lord , who hath placed you in so high a dignity , as also to beware that neither you your selves offend , nor be occasions that others offend . And after their Covenant to preach according to the Scripture , they promise [ to give faithful diligence , to administer the Doctrine , Sacraments , and Discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded , and as this Church and Realm hath received the same , according to the Commandments of God : So that you may teach the people committed to your care and charge with all diligence to keep and observe the same . Here Doctrine , Sacraments , and Discipline , are their Office-works : Gods Commandments are their Rule , tho on supposition that this Realm hath received them according to his Commandments . Next they covenant with all faithful diligence to banish all erroneous and strange doctrines contrary to Gods word , and to use both PUBLICK and PRIVATE Monitions and Exhortations , as well to the sick as to the whole , within your cures , as need shall require , and occasion shall be given : And [ to keep quietness , Peace and Love among all Christian people , and especially among them that are or shall be committed to their charge . All this is setled by Law , and all Ministers subscribe to it : And is not this enough to the essence of a Pastors office ? What is the Reason ? The next promise is [ Reverently to obey their Ordinary , and other chief Ministers , to whom is committed the charge and government of them , following with a glad mind and will , their godly admonitions , and submitting themselves to their godly judgments . This shews that , 1. It is not a strict Divine Right that is meant over them ; for all Ordinaries , and other chief Ministers , pretend not to such right . 2. If others superiority null their office , then none is in office but the King : Was Di●trep●es no Minister , because John threatned him as his superior ? It 's liker he had been none for resisting John , of the two : Were all degraded that obeyed the Apostles ? If it should be an error , that a Parochial Bishop is a Governor over his junior-Presbyters , or a Diocesan over both ; that nulleth not the Presbyters office : The Presbyterians give a Classis or Synod as much power over particular Churches , as the Episcopal give to Diocesans ; ( or near ) : And yet few Separatists have thence concluded that they have no particular Churches , or that this nulleth them ; contrarily , ab est tertii adjecti ad est secundi valet argumentum ; Parish Churches are govern'd Churches subject to superiors ; ergo , they are Churches . And the Law calls them Churches , 〈◊〉 , it taketh them for Churches , ( while it taketh no essential from them ) . XXIII . There are some particular Drs. in England indeed , who say that There is no Church without a Bishop of its own , and 〈◊〉 Epi●c●pus , ibi Ecclesia , and that Ecclesia est pl●●s Ep●s●●● adu●ata , and that our Parish Ministers are no Bishops , and that their sole Ordinations are nullities ; and consequently it would follow , that their Parish Churches are truly but parts of a Church infimae specie● : And because these men speak against Reordination , and yet require those to be ordained again , who were here ordained by mere Presbyters , therefore it seemeth plain , that they take the former for no true Ordination : These men I have oft confuted , especially in my Treatise of Episcopacy : And hence some gather , that I charge this error on all the Church of England , and take the Law and Clergy to nullifie the Parish-Ministry and Churches : Therefore I am specially obliged to answer such misconcluders , lest they make my writings a means of deceit against my sence , and against my will : for so unhappy is the controversal world , even of men of Worth and Name , that if I do but say that two is less than three , and that four is more than three , they fear not to say , that I contradict my self , and R. is against B. and sometimes I speak for , and sometimes against the same cause ; and these being ordinary Disputers and Church-guides , What hope have the Christian Flocks of Unity and Peace , but by such mens ceasing their disputes ? Here therefore it must be noted , 1. That the men of this opinion are not to be called , The Church of England . The most of the Bishops and Clergy formerly were against them , Dr. Hammond , and Bishop Gunning , and a few more , were almost the first that seemed to go so far . 2. And yet even these few do usually except the case of necessity , and of the forreign churches , ( as Dr. Sherlock hath lately done at large ) so that then they cannot take their Episcopal ordination received , to be essential to the Priesthood . 3. And these men themselves call our Parish societies , Parish Churches , and deny not the Presbyters to be Episcopi Gregis , and to have a pastoral care of the peoples souls , for they own the Liturgy , Ordination , and other writings of the Church , which assert it . 4. Their opposition to Presbytery hath carried them to appropriate the name Bis●op to the Diocesans , but by it they mean only a Bishop over Presbyters , having the power to ordain and depose them , and to ●● be chief in governing all the flocks ; But the controversie de nomine , and de re are not the same : This denieth not all Pastoral Episcopacy in Presbyters over the flocks under them : That these men by running into extreams do ill , many have written to prove : But maiming the Parish Ministry , or too much limiting it , is not nullifying it . 5. Let it be considered , that even the Separatists say not that the Power of Ordination is essential to Pastors : Some of them take Pastors unordained , only elected and received with prayer : Some take men ordained by n●ighbour Pastors , that have no power over them : Some take men ordained by Bishops , some by Magistrates : And Jurisdiction over n●ighbour Pastors I am sure the Separatists will say belongs neither to the being or well being of a Pastor . If then it be the Power of Ordaining , and of Jurisdiction over other Pastors , which the Diocesans deny the Parish Pastors , the● deny them nothing hereby essential to thei● office . All that can with any colour be said , is , that the Law now seems to be on these mens side , by requiring Reordination . But , 1. The Law-makers profess to establish the Church , and not to change it to another thing . 2. The Law-makers were not all of one mind in the Reasons of their Laws ; nor had all studied these kind of controversies : Many of them , and of the Clergy to this day , say that it is not a proper ordination that they require , but the giving them Authority to exercise their Ministry in England , and the decision of a doubtful case : Part of the Church taketh them for true Ministers that were ordained by Presbyters , and part do not ; and that the Congregations may not divide , they say they require this like Baptizing after a doubtful Baptism [ If thou art not baptized , I baptize thee . ] I am against this : But this proveth not that they take a Presbyter for no Pastor : Yea tho they should take his ordaining others to be a nullity ; Ordaining not being essential to him . XXIV . The Act of Uniformity , or the like Law , cannot make the Church no Church , or of another species , than 1. As it is esteemed by God and his Law. 2. Or as it is esteemed by the greater part of the Christian Clergy and Laity : Tho the Law should speak as the foresaid odd innovators do . For , 1. All Christians profess that Christ is the only just Institutor of the essentials of his own Churches : All Christians profess Communion with them as Churches of Christs making by his Law : The present Church of England professeth this in many books ; it bindeth all Ministers to hold to Scripture sufficiency , and use Discipiine as well as Doctrine and Worship , as Christ commandeth : It openly holdeth all Laws and Canons about Church essentials , yea and integrals , to be void and null that are against the Sacred Scriptures , and Law of God : There is no Power but of God : God hath given no power to nullifie his institutions . 2. All true Christians who consent to a Parish Minister , and attend on his Ministry , and join in the Assemblies , openly profess to own him first as a Minister of Christ , and to join in Worship and Communion of the church as prescibed by Christ , which no man hath power to overthrow . 3. The Parliament and Convocations , and Bishops and Clergy , all confess that they have no power to overthrow the Church essentials or offices of Christs Institution : They have not revoked the Church Writings in which all this is oft professed : They confess that if their Laws mistake and do contrary , they bind us not : They never openly professed a war against God or Jesus Christ : What if one Dr. S. Parker , make Christ subject to the King in his Kingdom ; he is not the Kingdom , nor the Church of England : For all his words they never made any Law to command Christ , or to punish him : They never cited him to appear before them , nor did any penal execution on his Person , which Government implieth . They bow at his name , and profess subjection to him . Therefore if the law had by error said any thing inconsistent with the essence of Churches and Ministry , it had not been obligatory to Pastors or people ▪ but they ought still to take Churches and Pastors to be what Christ hath made them , and described them to be . XXV . Suppose a Law should say , All families shall be so under Diocesans as to have no power but from them , and all shall subscribe to this . This doth not null family-power and society as instituted by God , nor make it a sin to live in Families , nor dissolve them all ; But all must continue in Families as inst●tuted by God : And if any subscribe to this , it will not make it a sin in all Wives , Children and Servants to live in those families . If the Law had said , All Schools in England shall be essentially subject to Diocesans , must we therefore have had no more Schools ? Or if the School-master subscribe to them , is it a sin to be his Scholar ? If the Law should say , All Christians shall choose their own Pastors , and meet and pray and preach as they please , but only in essential subjection to Diocesans , must all therefore give over Church Communion ? If the Law had said , All the Parish-Assemblies in England shall henceforth be essentially subject to the Pope , or a forreign Council , We must not therefore have forborn all such Assembling , but have kept to the state and duty appointed us by Christ . XXVI . Here the mistaking Opponents say , 1. That indeed de jure none can change the Essence of Christs Ministry and Churches , but de facto they may , and have done . Ans . What is meant by [ changing it , de facto ? ] Have they de facto , nulled Christs Power , Law ▪ or Offices and Churches ? What ? Nulled it by a Nullity of pretended Authority , and overcome his Power without Power ? De jure and de facto , to be a true Church or Pastor , is all one Christ made true ones : De facto they cannot unmake them , but by destroying matter or form , because they cannot do it de jure : They have destroyed neither matter or form of such parish churches as I plead for , and which Christ instituted ; for they had not power to do it : Indeed they may de facto make other sort of Churches and Ministers to themselves , ( tho not de jure ) but not to us ▪ who stick to Christs institutions . XXVII . But say they , We confess , if the Law did bid all assemblies in England meet in dependance on Diocesans , private and publick ; this would not alter the species of our separate Churches , because man hath not power , and we consent not . Ans . Very good . And I pray you what alters the case , as to the Parish-Churches ? Is it that they have Steeples and Bells , or that they have Tythes ? It 's the Calamity of Dissenters , that they either cannot consider , or can feel no strength in the plainest truth that is said against them ; but thoughts and sense run all one way , which they think right . XXVIII . Obj. But say they , Constitutive and Declaritive Laws must be distinguished . They can but declare our Meetings to be Diocesan , which is false ▪ 〈…〉 the Parish-Meetings such . Ans . 1. Remember that declaring the Parish-Churches to be such , doth no more constitute them such , than yours : Why then talk you so much of the words of Bishops , and Clergy , and Books , as if their declarations made them such ? 2. But how doth a Law constitute one ( the Parochial ) to be Diocesan , ( or null ) , more than your separate meetings , if by a Law of toleration it should say the same of them ? The truth is , They are such to consenters that judg them such : But they constitute them not such to any that consent not to such a constitution , but hold to Christs . XXIX . But it is said , that our thoughts alter not constitutions , they are our own immanent acts , that nihil ponunt in esse ; and therefore the Pastors and Churches will be what Law maketh them , whatever we think . Ans . Are not Churches formally relative societies ; what maketh them such , but thoughts and wills of men expressed ? Gods mind exprest in his Institutions is his premised consent ; our consequent obedient consent maketh Christians , Pastors , and Churches : If a Law cannot make the Parish consent to null Christs Officers and Churches , it doth not null them to them . If a Law say , All marriages shall be void unless the Bishop remarry them : This maketh them not void to any that consent not , but say , we stand to the valid marriage we had What doth another mans consent do to constitute me a Christian or Church-member ( except Parents for Infants ) ? And if my thoughts and consent put nothng in esse , then the thoughts and consents of the conforming Clergy alters not their Churches ; and what then is that constituting cause you talk of ? Is it only the law ? for shame say not so ; Gods own Law as commanding us to be Christians , Pastors or Churches , maketh us not such , without consent : And can mans Law both null Gods Law , and make us of what species it doth but bid us be , without our consent ? XXX . But here our Disputants think they expose me to derision : What ? Do I intimate that one and the same Congregation , may be two Churches of different species ? Ans . I think to be such by open profession , is disorderly and unusual : But I think he that denieth this , is unfit to deride the ignorance of another . 1. If the people in one Kingdom may be , in specie , two Kingdoms , the people of one Assembly may be two Churches ; but Bishop Bedle in his printed Letter said , that Ireland was then two Kingdoms , the King being Sovereign to some , and the Pope to other : And I think Hungary is so now , between the Emperor and Turks . 2. When Paul ordinarily held his assemblies in the Jewish Synagogues , where half were Infidels , and half Christians , ( before he separated his Christians from them ) I think they were two Churches . 3. If Independents had leave to meet in the Parish churches , where the Parish Minister , and their own Minister should preach by turns , and the Parish only heard theirs as a lay preacher , or none of their Pastor , and so they heard the Parish Preachers ; I doubt not , but they would be distinct church ▪ If one Parish church have two Pastors , and one of them be professedly for an essential subjection to the Pope , and the other against it , and half the people of one mind , and half of the other , I think they are two Churches in one place . If those Anabaptists who take none but the re-baptized for Church-members , should with their Pastors join with Independents in worship , tho esteeming them no churches , I suppose you think they would be distinct churches in one place . But I think none of this is the case of the churches that I join with ; for I suppose they null not Christs species of Ministers to themselves or me . But if they did it to themselves , that would not do it to me . XXXI . Obj. But one and the same Minister cannot be of two species , and therefore relation to him cannot constitute distinct Churches . Ans . 1. One and the same man cannot be a Minister of Christ , and no Minister of Christ ; so much is true , nor of any two inconsistent species : But if you will call any circumstantial difference a distinct species , that will no● hinder the consistence : The same man may be Christs Minister , and the Kings Chaplain , or a Dean , or Pre●endary , or a Diocesan Bishop , or Subject to a Diocesan , such Bishops as Chrysostom , Augustine , Ambrose , 〈◊〉 , Parke● , Grindal , Ush●r , Davenant , &c and their Chaplains did not cease to be Christs Ministers . 2 Relation to one of these men may make two sorts of consistent churche● , if the same man have a Parish and a Diocess , as the German superintendents have , and many other Bishops ; the warrantableness we are not now disputing . 3. Yea , one and the same Parish Minister may be Pastor of two Churches in one Assembly : If he openly profess himself Orthodox , the people that so own him are a church ; and if he secretly to a party of them profess himself an Anabaptist , or a Papist , and they unite with him as such , they are another church , such as it is ; Vespae habent favos , & marcionitae ecclesias : Tertul. XXXII . Obj. But the grand Objection is , No man can be a Pastor of Christ against his will : The Parish Ministers have all by conforming , renounced the essence of the Christian Ministry , and subscribed and sworn this renunciat●● by subjecting themselves to Diocesans , and swearing never to endeavour any alteration of the Diocesan Government , and the Vestries who represent the churches , have sworn the same ; and you have of●en said that the Diocesan form of Government , 1. Deposeth the Parish Bishops , and maimeth the Ministry . 2. Dep●seth the Parish Churches . 3. And maketh Parish Discipline impossible . Ans . It is impossible to write that , which no man can misunderstand , and make an ill use of . I have oft told you , 1. That I am in doubt , whether Arch-Bishops as Successors of the Apostles , only in the ordinary continued part of their Office , be jure divino , or not . 2. That Congrational Bishops over Presbyters , being ejusdem ordinis , are an old venerable and lawful humane Institution . 3. That Congregational Bishops , only over the Laity , are all Presbyters as such , and of Christs Institution . 4. Hereupon I have oft distinguished Diocesans into two sorts . 1. Those that are but the Governors of true particular Churches , that depose them not , but Rule them by the word perswasively : These are called Bishops , being really Arch-Bishops : These I never charged of the Consequents forenamed : And if the King make them Cogent Magistrates also , I will obey them . I take the judgment of the Church of England manifest in Ordination , Liturgy , Articles , &c. to be for such Diocesans only , tho I vastly dissent from many things in the Canons by which , and the Mode in which some exercise their Government . 2. The other sort is the Innovators form of Diocesan Government , which hold that there is no Church without a Bishop , and no Bishop but Diocesans , ( either Bishop of Laity or Presbyters ) and so that the Parish Churches are no Churches , but part of the lowest sort of true Political Churches : These I take to be Super-conformists , yea Nonconformists , and Dissenters from the Church of England , tho they may strive to get the name of the Church to themselves . Now , what I say of these Innovating Nonconformists , and their designs and attempts , our mistaking Separatists say , I speak of the Laegal Church frame , and so of all the Bishops and Parish-Churches . And I see no hope of delivering the Church of God from the trouble of incogitant confident erroneous Dissenters , that are not able to distinguish . XXXIII . I further answer this great Objection ( being concerned in Consc●ence to do it , when men father their mistakes and Separation on me . ) 1. The Parish-Ministers that I joyn with , ( and I think the most that ever I knew ) have not ( that I know of ) renounced any thing essential to a Parish-Pastor : I before said , Ordination and Jurisdiction over Presbyters or other Churches , is no part of its essence . To be obedient to a Diocesan , is no such Renunciation . Therefore it is no such Renunciation to promise to obey them in lawful things , subordinate to obeying Christ . If it prove a mistake in them , and that they owe no such Obedience , every such mistake doth not degrade them . He that said , that ( he that will be greatest , shall be servant of all ) thought not that to obey an equal , did null the Ministry . Nor he that said , Be su●ject one to another . Christ and Peter paid tribute to avoid offence , tho the Children be free . But what if a man be in doubt , whether such Obedience be not his Duty : Is it not the safer side much more if he verily think it his Duty ? 2. To take Diocesans to be Jure Divino , is said by some to be destructive of the Pastoral Office , and Churches , and a change of the English Church-Government . But it 's error . For 1. It is not the Destructive Diocesan Government , which acknowledg no Church and Pastor under them , that those in question consent to ; but the Governing Diocesan , who ruleth subject Pastors and Churches . 2. This Question of Divine right , is threefold . 1. Of that which by D●●ire right is necessary , ad esse . 2. Of that which is by Divine right , best and m●st elegible , or needful , ad melius esse . 3. That which is by right of Divine Concession lawful , but not necessary . The Church of England never determined , which of these was the Diocesans Case : All Conformists judged it Lawful ; multitudes judged it Better than other forms : Many judged it necessary when it might be had . But no Law determined for any of these alone . Unless you will say , the Preface to the Book of Ordination doth it , by saying [ It is evident to all men diligently reading holy Scripture , and Ancient Authors , that from the Apostles time , there have been these Orders of Ministers in Christs Church , Bishops , Priests , and Deacons . Which Offices were evermore had in such Reverend Estimation , &c. ] Here some say , That the Church of England took not these for three distinct Orders before 1640 , but now : Therefore by the word [ these Orders ] is meant only two . Ans . At this rate , he must have the bette● , whom the hearer best trusteth , whatever he say : If [ these Orders of Ministers , Bishops , Priests , and Deacons , ] speak not three Orders , I cannot understand them . Here note partiality ; the same that refuse to subscribe them , because they speak three Orders ; yet say , they speak but two ] when they argue that Church-Government is changed 1662 , from what it was 1640. Indeed Aelfricks Laws in Spelman , make Bishops and Priests the same Order , and so do a great part of Schoolmen and other Papists ; but the English Bishops and Clergy were some of one mind , and some of another about it , and determined it not . Unless this Preface be a Determination , the Name [ Order and Office ] being both used . And ( to instance in no other ) Saravia ( tho no English man , yet of the Church of England ) wrote more strongly almost than any that I ever read , for Diocesan Episcopacy ( against Beza , &c. ) and that upon this ground of Divine right , that they succeeded the Apostles , and such as Timothy , Titus , &c. in the Government of many Churches . ( And the Kings Divines at the Isle of White went all on that Ground ) . To say then , that to plead a Divine right for them , is new , is to contradict large Historical Evidences . And were it true , that this had been never before Imposed or Subscribed ; surely it is not an Opinion of the Divine right of governing of many Churches , that renounceth the being of those Churches ; it asserteth them to be by Divine right . For that which is not , is not governable . Non entis , non sunt accidentia . But where and how hath the Law or Church altered the case since 1640. These words were in the Book of Ordination before , and I know of none plainer that way since . It s destructive Diocesan Government , which renounceth the Government of any subject Churches , but of one only , and of any Pastors that I argue against , and not Governours of such Churches . XXXIV . But it 's objected , That they swear [ not to endeavour any alteration of Church-Government ; therefore they renounce the Pastoral Office , because the present Government excludeth it . Ans . 1. This is to dictate , and not to prove : The Diocesan Government hampered and fettered it by the Canons in the time of Whitgift and Bancroft , but null'd it not : He that reads the Canons , or knows the Church , and thinks that it's Government hath no need of Amendment , is far from my mind : But governing is not nullifying . 2. It is not true ( that ever I heard ) that they swear what this Objection saith : The Ministers do not swear , but subscribe it , and swear Obedience in licitis & honestis : ( And I could never learn what Law commands that Oath ) . And if it should extend to obey all the Canons , it 's that which I would be full loath to swear ; but I know no Canon that utterly nulleth the Parish-Churches and Ministers ▪ And a Justice that sweareth to execute the Laws , is not supposed thereby to justifie every Law , nor to execute any , if it should be against Gods Law , that exception being still supposed . 3. Their Subscription never to endeavour alteration , engageth them never to endeavour to destroy the Parish Churches and Ministry , and so is for them : For that would be a great alteration indeed . 4. If you should think otherwise ; yet if the Subscriber , or Swearer think himself , that it is not destructive , but governing Diocesans , that he subscribeth to ; it is not your Opinion or Exposition , that bindeth him against his own ; No , tho you were in the right , as to the Imposers sense : For , Ignorantis non est consensus . It 's unjust to face them down that they mean what they profess they do not . Ask forty Conformists , whether they think the Government which they promise not to alter , be that Diocesan form which ruleth Parish Churches and Pastors , or that which denieth their being , and I think few will profess the latter sense . 5. And suppose the worst , that any Parish-Priest were of that mind ; yea , and were really no true Pastor , as to his own acceptance with God ; he may yet be a Pastor so far true , as is necessary to the Essence of the Church , if the People know it not : For the Innocent suffer not for the guilties sin . If a man be a secret Atheist , or Heretick , or do counter●eit Ordination and Election , and really had none , and the People be deceived by him , and know it not while he possesseth the place , and doth the work ; his Baptisms and Administrations are valid to the Church , as a Church , tho not to himself and his Ministry . The Jews Church was not null , when the high Priests had no lawful call , but bought the Office of R●man Heathens . XXXV . Obj. But the Vestry swears never to endeavour any alteration . Ans . 1. The Vestry was never empowred to give the sense of the Church herein . 2. I never lived where any such things as Vestries were , but in London ; unless you will call the Ministers and Church-Wardens the Vestry . And what 's London to all England ? 3. If they are so sworn , it is as a new thing since 1661. But then they are sworn , ( whoever is for it ) never to end 〈…〉 in Popery , nor destroying Dioce●ans , but only not to alter 〈…〉 I doubt with m●re Officers than we wish continued ) 4. And whereas those that I now deal with , say , That indeed before 1640. 〈…〉 Churches and Pastors , but now it doth by 〈…〉 ; Let it be considered , that the Lawmakers are so far from professing any 〈◊〉 al●●rat●n , that it is only the Long-Parliament , and the 〈◊〉 Alterati●● , that they complain'd of ; and therefore swea● Corporations , Vestries , Militia , Nonconformists ( by the Oxford Oath ) and engage all Conformists never to endeavour any alteration So that they thought that it was the old Government that they setled . And now all this great part of the whole Kingdom is sworn , as I said , against Popery and foreign Jurisdiction , against Patriarchs , and against putting down parish churches and pastors , that they will never endeavour it ( by consent or execution of any mens commands ) . The alterations made before these oaths , were not essential . XXXI . I add one more argument , That owning subjection to governing Diocesans , as such , nulleth not the su●ject Churches and Pastors ; else by parity of Reason , Subjection● to Arch-Bishops would null the Diocesan Churches and Bishops , which it doth not do ; nor do you think it doth ; yea , tho all Diocesans solemnly promise to obey their Arch-Bishops in their Consecration . XXXII . If you do know of any Minister that is for destructive Diocesans , that will not nullifie the Offices of all the rest , that never were of that mind or consent : Yea , if the Law so meant ( as you say , but prove not ) you know how commonly Conformists say , that the meaning of the Subscription and Oaths , is only against [ Seditious or unlawful sorts of endeavour to alter . ] Be this true or false , it proveth that those men consent not contrary to their sense of the Subscription , and so renounce not their Churches . XXXIII . Indeed the new Laws have made Ministerial Conformity much harder than it was before 164● . And also Lay Conformity with u● the Church-do●rs , by the aforesaid Oaths ; and also Lay Conformity within the Church seemeth very hard in some particular Offices , especially Baptismal Circumstances . But I think the ordinary Communion in the Liturgy , is better than it was before : For 1. The ●pistles and Gospels are used after the new Translation , which were used after the old . 2. Divers Collects have some mistakes changed [ As on this day ] at Easter , Whitsuntide , when it was not on that day . 3. The Minister is newly enabled and required to keep all from the Sacrament , who are not ready to be confirmed , ( that is , that are not Catechized , and ready understandingly , to renew their baptismal Covenant ) which is a very great addition of power : And if any practise it not , that 's his fault , and a neglect of execution of his power ; and when he puts scandalous Sinners from the Sacrament , he may say , [ As a Minister of Christ and Rector of this Church , I judg you unmeet for its Communion , and forbid it you . ] And no more is essential to his Church Discipline in Excommunication . It 's too true , that the Exercise of this it clog'd with further Prosecution by him , in the Chancellors Court , which I think few will undertake . And it 's true , that such Ministers are required to publish the Excommunications of Lay-men , past in the Bishops names , tho it be according to such Canons , as the 6 th , 7 th , 8 th , &c. But a man in Fetters , is a man : It changed not the Pastoral Office , when Heathen Emperors persecuted it , and when such Christian Emperors , as Anastasius , Zeno , Basilicus , Theodosius 2d . Constantius , Valens , &c. vexed or cast out those that were not of their Opinions . It nulleth not the Office in Switzerland to have none but the Magistrates Discipline . XXXIV . The Objectors grant , that , If any Parish-Church shall by Minister and People consenting , be formed according to the Rules of the Gospel , they are true Churches , tho the Law should be against them , or command the contrary . Ans . 1. Much more then , if the Law be for all that is essential . 2. And doth not this say as much as I am pleading for ? Name me , if you can , any thing essential , which all Ministers promise not at Ordination ? If any after renounce it , the crime is personal : Prove it before you say it , and forsake him , and charge not his fault on others . I think you are not of their minds , that say , [ The Law bindeth every Subscriber and Swearer to the sense of the Imposers , when he took it through mistake in another sense , because they refused to explain it ; especially , if he declared his sense : Much less doth it bind him to your sense , against his own . XXXV . But then ( say the Objectors ) such Churches are Dissenters ; as such you joyn with them , and not as setled by Law , and so it is but a Conventicle , and is excommunicated by the Canon , or you excommunicated for saying it is a Church , and joyning with it . Ans . 1. What if all this be true ? Doth it follow , that I must separate from it ? Are not your private Churches more unquestionably Excommunicate , &c. by the Canon , and yet you separate not from them ? Can you see but on one side ? 2. But your Affirmation proveth not that the Law nulleth such Ministers , or Churches , as use the Liturgy , and subscribe in the favourable sence , tho it should prove a mistake . It must first be tryed and judged to be a mistaken sense , and even where they ( strangely ) Excommunicate , ipso facto , the fact must be proved and declared by the Judg , before Priest and people are bound to Execution , ( tho the Law be loco sententiae ; the 〈◊〉 being proved and declared ) , no man is bound to do Execution on himself . 3. I would seriously advise these Brethren to think , Whether all good Christian Men and Women are bound to study the Laws of England , before they may resolve what Church to ●●mmuni●ate with ? yea , whether they must be all so well skill'd in Law , as to decide these Law-controversies , that you and I are not agreed in , and Lawyers themselves do ordinarily differ in ; that is , Whether by Law the Parish-Churches and Pastors be changed and n●lled , and Diocesses be made the only Churches , ●●simae species ? Must all forbear Communion till they are so good Lawyers ? Why may it not suffice to know Christs Law , and to profess to obey it , and to do nothing against it willingly ? He that will promise to Communicate with th● Church , but as it is established by Law , should have more skill in the Law than I have to know , how it is established ; and every Communicant hath not so much more than I. XXXVI . But ( say they ) then you are bound to av●●d s●andal , by professing openly that you Communicate 〈◊〉 a Dissenter , and not with the Church as established by Law. Ans . 1. Then I should falsly say that which I either think is otherwise , or am not resolved in . I tell you , Few can truly say this , if any . 2. What need this , when the open Profession of all Christians is , That it is a Church and Worship of Christs making , which they own and intend , and none that is against them ? And when the Articles of the Church of England , and the Ordination covenant own Scripture-sufficiency , and disclaim all that is against Gods word : Must we be supposed to renounce Religion , when we meet to profess it ? And surely for disowning any thing which the Nonconformists judg unlawful , all the Books written by them , and all the notorious sufferings in twenty two years , Ejection and Prosecution , are no obscure Notification of their Judgments , without speaking it at the Church ●oors , or before the Assemblies : Must I openly protest against Independency , Anabaptistry , or Presbytery , ( if I dissent ) before the face of their Congregations , if I will Communicate with them ? 3. But to stop your demand bef●re I Communicated in the Parish ●hurch , where I now am ; I went to the Incumbent , and told him that I would not draw him into danger , or intrude against his will : I had been ●●iled by the Kings Commission , and after by the Lord Keeper , to debate about Alteration in the Liturgy and Worship , and Discipline ; and I thought that thereby I wa● by 〈◊〉 6 , 7 , 8. ipso facto Excommunicate , but not bound to do Execution on my self ; and therefore if I were separated , it should not be my act ; but I left it to his will : He took time , and upon advice admitted me . Obj. But you must tell them that the Parish Church hath no dependance on the Bishops , but as the Kings Officers ; and that it is Independent , and then you fall not under our opposition . Ans . 1. How many Lawyers and Civilians do openly say ( as Crompton before Cosins Tables ) that all Church Government floweth from the King. And doth that satisfie you ? 2. And why must the Parish Church and Pastor needs be Independent ? Will you have no Communion with Presbyterians ? 3. And what if it be dependent on the Diocesan , as governour ( tho not as destroyer ) ? Is it any more destructive of its Essence , than to be governed by a Classis or Council ? XXXVII . As for your telling us , W●●m the Canons e●c●mmunicate , or 〈◊〉 Lay-chancellors , Officials , Surrogates , Archdeac●ns , &c. exc●mmunicate , what Oaths they imp●se , &c. tell them of it , and not us , who are not responsible for other mens deeds . It no more concerneth our cause of Parochial Lay-communion , than to tell us how bad men some Ministers are , nor so much neither : For I that willingly joyn in the Liturgy , will not willingly , if I know it , so much as seem to own the Ministry of any man that is notoriously Insufficient , Atheistical , Heretical , or so Malignant , or Wicked , as to do more hurt than good ▪ Avoid such , and spare not . XXXVIII . Obj. They want the Peoples c●nsent , and so are no Past●rs . Ans . The People shew their consent by ordinary Submission and Communion . Obj. The People must be supposed to consent to the Law , which maketh them no Pastors , but the Bishops Curates . Ans . Both the Suppositions are before confuted ; both that the People are supposed to consent to any Law against Gods , and that the Law maketh Curates to be no Pastors . XXXIX . To conclude the Objections about the Essence of Parish Churches . 1. The question is not . Whether there be not a sort of Diocesan Prelacy , which nulleth them ? 2. Nor wh●ther there be not some men in England that write and plead for such Diocesan Churches as have no true Episcop●s pregis , much less Episcopus 〈◊〉 under them , but are 〈◊〉 Bishops in that Diocess ? Nor of what number , power , or interest these men are of ( against whom I have oft written ) ? 3. But whether the Law be on their side , or against them ? for the old Diocesan Government of subordinate Pastors and Churches , is to me n●w uncertain : I did once incline most to the fi●●t sense of the Law ; but on sec●nd thoughts hope better of it , and am not Lawyer good enough to be certain 4. But if it should be so , I verily think ●●e main 〈◊〉 , of the 〈…〉 , and therefore 〈◊〉 not to renounce their P●rish ●overnment , ●ut only to use it in subordination to the Bishop . 5. And I am p●st doubt that all the Communicants of England , are neither ●ound to decide this Law-doubt , nor to understand it , nor to believe that the Law hath altered the Government . 6. And if they did believe it , they ought to keep on in Church Assemblies ▪ according to Christs Law , taking all that 's against it , as void , as long as they are put ●n no sin themselves , nor the Church notoriously renounceth its ●ssentials . 7. And if they were stated Members of other Churches ( e.g. the Gre●k , the Dutch , the French ) ; they might ●ccasionally Communicate in our Parishes transiently ( without examining the Pastors call and discipline , but judging by possession and practice ) . 8. And if they should prove no lawfully called Ministers , their Office would be valid to those that blamelesly were deceived and knew it not . 9. And if they were sure that they were no true Ministers , they may joyn with them in all Worship belonging to Lay-Christians . 10. But if they prove able , godly Ministers of Christ ( tho faulty ) setled by Law to the advantage of Religion in a Christian Kingdom , where all are commanded thus to maintain national Concord ; and the upholding those Churches , is the very National possession of the Protestant Religion , and it goeth for publick Disobedience and Scandal to forsake them , and that at a time when many forsake them too for unjust grounds , and by suffering for it , stand to unwarrantable Accusations of them , and sharply Censure those that do not as they , and oppugne Peacemakers , and all this after the old Nonconformists full Confutation of the Separatists unwarrantable way , and the doleful experience of Subversion of all sorts of Government ; by the Prosecution of such mistakes , I say , If all this should be the case , it is deeply to be considered . XL. But the most effectual hindrance , is the opinion of unlawfulness in j●yning in the Liturgy ; yet my last Objectors confess that [ It is lawful to some , and that it is n●t Communion in it , much less in all forms , which they call unlawful t● all : And the sober sort are loth to say t●at the Millions of Christians in England , and Scotland , who live where they can be in no other Churches , should rather like Atheists live without all Church-Worship and local Communion . And in gaining this , I have gained the better half of what I pleaded for . And they confess , and so do I , that publick Communion may be one mens duty , and anot●●rs sin , as circumstances vary . I confess one man may possibly live under so intollerable a Minister , as is not to be owned . And even some of the high adversaries of Nonconformists seem of this mind , and break the Canon ; and having Pastors , who they think do not heartily conf●rm , ●ut plead for Peace and Moderation ; they revile them as Trimmers , and will not Communicate wi●h them , but go out of their own Parishes ( and thousands seldom any where . Other circumstances also may vary mens cases . ●ut some Objectors at last t●ll us , that the great difference which they mean , is differe●t light : T●e ●ld Martyrs , Reformers and Nonconformists , had not so much light as we , and so it w●s not th●●r sin ; but greater light being now m●r● common , it will be a common sin to j●yn in the Liturgy ▪ Ans . 1. It is ordinary and easie for men to magnifie their own understandings ; but Gods Law was then the same as now ; and they were bound to know it ; Their ignorance might make sin less ( and stripes fewer ) but could not make it none . 2. I have many Reasons to think that it is your light that is l●ss , and the old Nonconformists and Conformists ( in this ) that was greater . 1. That is the greater light that most agreeth with Gods Word , and th● universal churches practice accordingly . 2. The writings of the old Nonconformists yet extant , give better reas●ns than the seperatists did , and therefore had clearer light . What vast difference is there in the writings of Ball , Hildersham , Am●sius , ( Manuductions ) Gifford , Paget , Bradshaw , &c. on that part , and Johnsons , Cans , Penrys , &c. on the other ? 3. The Theological writings and labours of the Nonconformists in all other points shewed , that they were men of incomparable more light than the Separatists ; and is it like that God would give men such rare light only in church ▪ communion , that had so little comparatively in the rest of Divinity ; except Ainsworth's skill in Hebrew , ( in other things by Paget laid too naked ) how few old Separatists have left any considerable fruits of great light unto the church ? Read the writings of Cartwright , Dudley Fenner , Hildersham , John Reignolds , Dod , Perkins , Bai● , Parker , Ames , Bradshaw , &c. Besides Scots ▪ and all Foreigners , such as Calvin , Beza , Zanchy , Sadeel , and hundreds more ; and compare these with the Writings of the Separatists , and judg who had greater light . 4. Since 1660. all the London Ministers , and others with them t●at offered the King to set up in the parish churches the old Liturgy with some alterations , were men ( except my self ) who shewed in their Writings and preaching ▪ as much light as the Separatists have shewed , even Brown , or John Goodwin himself , ( that wrote Prelatical Preachers are no Teachers of Christ ) : Where do they now shew greater light than others ? this boast to me deserveth pity more than confutation : Anabaptists , and others say the same , but I find much less light in them both , when I read and hear them ; tho I truly love and honour all that is good in them : If you have so much more light than we and all the Reformed churches , shew it us in other excellencies . XLI . But I must more particularly consider of this Authors Allegation of my own words against me , especially my Treatise of Episcopacy : And I do heartily thank him for calling me to review it . For , 1. I profess to write nothing which may not be amended . And 2. If mens misunderstanding turn my writings to a snare and scandal , it greatly concerneth me to remove it by explication , or by retractation of any thing that needeth it . And 1. I do find that I have incautelously given some occasion to the mistake ; for thol entituled my Book , not against Diocesan episcopacy , but against that sort of Diocesan churches , Prelacy and Government , which casteth out the Primitive church sp●cies of ●piscopacy , Ministry , and Discipline ] ; and tho to avoi● mistake , I said in the Preface , I ●ere give notice to the Reader , that whenever 〈…〉 me speak as against the English Diocesan Prelacy , I mean it as described by Cosins and Dr. Zouch , and as relating to the Et c●tera Oaths and 〈◊〉 ▪ and not in opposition to the laws of the Land ; Yet all this was not enough to avoid misunderstanding ! Indeed I took the church Government to be described and judged of by the churches own sentence , more than by the ●●w ; and I had read the said Et cetera oath and canons with the words that so it ●ught to stand , which I think could mean nothing less , than that so by Gods Law it ought to stand ; and I had read the old canons , 6 th , 7 th , and 8 th . Which ex●ommunicate , ipso facto , all men , with●ut excepting L●rds or Parliament M●n , who affirm that any thing in the church Government , by Arch-Bishops , Bishops , Deans , Arch-Deacons , and THE REST that bear office therein , is repugnant to the Word of God : And I read the canons that forbid Ordained Ministers to preach till they are further licensed by Bishops ; yea , and in the church or elsewhere so much as to expound any Doctrine or Matter , but only to r●ad Scripture and Homilies , &c. with much more like this . 3. And then I took the stated restraint of the Ministry , with Lay-chancellors , and officials decre●ive power of Excommunication , and absolution , and the foresaid Civilians denying all G●venment to Presbyters , to have been quoad exercitium quantum 〈◊〉 ; at least an overthrow of parish churches , Rectors and discipline . 4. And I thought that the Bishops and Chancellors could never have so long done all this , and ruled by these canons , if the Law had not been on their side . 5. And I thought that the Authors of the canons of 1640 being a c●nvo●a●i●n , it was to be called the Church of England : and specially when I found the most highly honoured Doctors pleading , there was no Bishop but D●●cesan , and no church without its proper Bishop . By all these inducements ( with long sad experience ) I oft speak so incautelously calling this , the English d●●●●san frame , that the Reader might easily think that I meant it was that frame that was setled by law ; whereas having read ●ryn , H●ntley , Leigh●●● , and others that deny the law to be for it , and being my self a stranger to that case of Law , I should have more fully separated the Law case from the new convocation case , and much more from the destructive Innovators case , who nullified the foreign churches , with whom it was that I disputed ; and specially considering that the canons and oath of 1640. were a●ter cashier'd by Parliament , and never since restor'd , no not by the Parliament of 1662. Upon all this , 1. I retract all words that seem to determine the case in Law , ( if any such be there ) or that by darkness tend so to the Readers error . 2. And all words that make the writings of superconformists and subver●ers , or chang●rs of the church government , or the canons of the convocation 1640 to be the sense of the Church of England , when it is said , that before its sence was otherwise and alteration is now abjured , or disowned by most of the Land ; and conformists usually profess another sense : Upon this very reason I write this short Debate to avoid the injuring of the Re●ders of my Writings , about the English Diocesan frame . XLII . The Book I animadvert on , is called , Mr. Baxters Judgment and Reasons against c●mmunicating with the Parish Assemblies as by Law r●qu●red . Ans . I am for communicating with them in the essentials of Christianity , and Communion , as the Law requireth , if I understand it , because the Law of Christ requireth it : But in whatever circumstances any law shall ●e against Christs Law , I communicate not according to such a Law. XLIII . All that he citeth out of my writings , p. 2 , 3 ▪ is against his cause , which he thought was for it , as I have proved . What he citeth § ● . the first is unproved , the second I own , and is nothing for him . XLIV . P. 5. And oft throughout , he alledgeth , that I make the Par●shes not compleat particular Churches . Ans . No wonder ; those may be true churches , that are not compleat in integrity or degree ; will you separate from all churches that are not so compleat ? I know not of any strictly compleat on earth : many true churches are incompleat as to integrals , much more as to ornament , order , and strength : And all particular churches are less compleat than the universal ; and that on earth , alas how far from compleat : Believe him not Reader , that R.B. is against your joining with all churches , which he proveth to be not compleat , yea , or to be very faulty and defective in point of ●oliness , Love , or Order of Ministers or people : But they are true churches in essentiality , tho parts of a Diocess , as that is of a Nation ; not meer parts of the lowest single Church . P. 6. § 2. What I say of suspending the power , is not nulling it in the office ; and what I say of practice by canons , and visitation Articles , is not said of Law ; much less of all the Churches and Pastors consent to them ; and what I say of misgoverning in exercise , is not said of a national profession , that so it ought to b● . P. 7. He citeth my words further against restraint of the Ministers power . But 1. That nulleth not Christs Institution of it . 2. More Power is given . As 1. To deny the Sacrament , as is said , to all that are not ready to be confirmed . 2. To deny absolution to all the sick , who do not humbly and earnestly desire it , &c. And the Power of doing it by Ministerial Application of Gods Word , is all that is properly ministerial , though they take all cogent power from us : Mans taking away our power , is but hindring the exercise quantum in se , but the Power is of Christ , which they cannot take away . P. 8. They cannot suspend our commanded act , ( but only our doing it with liberty and advantage ) : I can refuse the Sacrament to the unfit , tho it be to my trouble . P. 9. I say there are many additions to the old conformity ▪ that make the case harder to Clergy and Laity than of old : But I there maintain that none of these additions do make Parochial Communion now pleaded for , unl●wful . XLV . P. 10. He saith , If we might not endeavour to restore the old Prelacy , then not to give strength to it being restored : And ( say others ) , lest we be perjured , having sworn and covenanted against it . Ans . This needeth impartial Consideration : They say , That our covenant engagement maketh that unlawful to us , which was lawful to the old Nonconformists . But 1. Did not Gods Law make it unlawful to them , or to us before ? Then you think we covenanted to do somewhat th●t ●ods law bound us not to ; if so , it was superstition ; and is not adding our self-made vows and duties , as bad as adding Ceremonies ? 2. Yea , they then thought Brownism a sin ; and if they mistook not , we cannot by covenanting turn sin into duty . 3. Ad hominem , the Author professeth Independency : And I suppose he knoweth , that the chief of that way , did some write , to prove that the Covenant bound not ( at last ) , and some likened it to an Almanack out of date ; and some said , it was a League which was dissolved , and so bound not ; and how great a party thought that it bound them not from pulling down both King , and many Parliaments , and conquering Scotland , res ips● loqunta ●st : And even King and Parliament , Lord Spiritual , Temporal and Commons , have declared it their judgment in the Corporation Act and Declaration , which bindeth all the Corporation Officers to declare without exception , that there is no obligation on them , or any other from the Oath , called the solemn League and Covenant : It 's true indeed , that the Presbyterian Ministers , and Soldiers ▪ and People , thought that this Covenant bound them to restore the King ; and said , Let us keep our covenant , and trust God with the issue ; and G. Monks Army Officers in their address to him , glory in it , not doubting but the King would find such his best subjects ; but the Law that bindeth men to declare that there is no obligation on them or any other , tells them they did err when they thought it bound them to restore the King : Whether this be true or not , I meddle not with ; but by this you see , that there are few in the land of any party , save Presbyterians , that can charge us with Covenant breaking ( herein ) for going to the Parish Churches , without contradicting themselves or guides ; but this is but ad Hominem . 4. But what words be they in the Covenant that we violate ? did it mean , If power restore the Liturgy , and Bishops , and will suffer no other Churches , we will rather all give over all worship of God in churches , than we will join with them ? This were a wicked Oath , and could no more oblige us , than to give over all family worship ; I hope few sober men ever so sware . 5. I so little consent to the corporation declaration , that I do believe that I was bound by that vow to do as I have done in going to the Parish Churches . For 1. I am bound by it against Prophaneness , and all that 's c●ntrary to sound Doctrine and Godliness : But to forsake all publick Worship of God without necessity , is prophaneness , and c●ntrary to Godliness . 2. I am bound in my place and calling to oppose Popery ; But to tell all the Protestants in England , that they sin if they forsake not all the Parish Churches , is to pre●are them for the reception of Popery , seeing that will be the National Religion which possesseth those Parish Churches : By deserting our Garisons we shall deliver them up . 3. I am bound by it against Schism ; and I am not able to excuse it from being Schism , if under all the obligations that now lye upon us , I should by my constant avoiding the Parish Churches , even unto sufferings declare , that I take their Communion for absolutely unlawful , and so slander so many Churches of Christ , and seduce others with me into the same error and sin : This would be Schism and Covenant-breaking in me ; whatever it is in others . XLVI . Obj. But you swore against Prelacy and Liturgy , and now you strengthen them . Ans . 1. As the Covenant was made the terms or test of national Church Union , excluding all the Episcopal , who were half the Kingdom and more , I think it was a rash sinful Engine of unavoidable division : But when I took it , it was not so imposed , but offered to them that were of that mind , and I saw not then that snare . 2. I never swore against the Common-Prayer , nor against the Englsh frame of Prelacy , ( much less , all Episcopacy ( any further , than in my place and calling to endeavour Reformation according to the word of God , and the example of the best reformed churches : And this I have endeavoured to the utmost of my power , perhaps more than my accusers . And 3. There is much good in the Liturgy , Parish Order , and Government : I never did covenant against that ; and therefore the Ministers who laboured for Reformation and Concord 1660 and 1661 , thought they kept their covenant by craving some amendments , and not an abolition ; and if we did think any thing to be bad that was good , we must not be obstinate in that error ; forsaking the good which is our duty , is not the way to amend any sin or error ; avoiding Gods publick Worship , and living like Atheists ( save in private ) is not the way to amend the faults of publick Worship or Government : Praying to God for what we want , and owning the Scriptures , and Christian Religion , and communicating with Christians on lawful terms , is not encouraging any sin in church Priests or Prelates , unless men by our duty will be encouraged to sin ; and we must not forsake duty to avoid such mens encouragement : the sons of the Coal are most angry with those that come nearest to them in all things save their sin and error ; and say , those that stand afar off cannot hurt them : I do not just●fie all that is in every Assembly that I join with ; must I needs renounce Local communion with every Independent , Presbyterian , or Anabaptist church , that I dissent from , for fear of strengthning them : I covenanted as much against Schism as faulty Prelacy ; and yet if I must join with no church that is guilty of Schism , alas whither shall I go ? 4. I humbly desire you to examine , whether your way be not a breach of the covenant you plead ; not only as it advantageth Prophaneness , Popery , and Schism , but as it strengtheneth that which you say I strengthen ; he knoweth not England , who knoweth not that perceiving the error of unwarrantable separation , and the unjust accusations of the Liturgy and churches , used by very many ( besides some failings in some private churches ) hath been , and is a grand cause of encouraging too great a number , even to superconformity , and to the fierce opposition of us , and to the utmost confidence in their own way : and as you charge me more than others as drawing more to the communion of Godly Protestant Parish Ministers ( that is , to christian catholick love , peace , and communion ) : So do the Sons of the Coal , the superconformists more fiercely revile me as stopping more , than you have done from their extremities . Gods Word is a sufficient rule , keep to that , and fear not breaking any self-made laws . XLVII . Obj. But by this latitude you may join with Papists , and say , you judg of them according to Christs description . Ans . I answered this in the former book : When I joyn with any church as a church , I join with them as meeting to profess and practice christian faith and worship , their by faults I own not : But if they openly profess Idolatry or Heresie , instead of Worship and Faith , or if they meet to practice any sin which renders the whole church or worship rejected by God , I must not assemble with them , but avoid them ; which I must not do for tolerable failings , lest I avoid all the world : I say again , I will cast away my Wine or Broth for Poyson in it , which I will not do for a fly : If the church renounce Christs description in the essentials , notoriously , I will not call it a church against their own consent : But if they do it only in some Accident or Integrals , I will only disown those faults . XLVIII . Obj. But , say they , ( p. 13.14 . ) It is impossible there should be two national churches , at least in one nation ; therefore by joining with a Parish you can be no part of the national church ; tho we confess that if you join with a Parish Assembly that forms it self into a compleat single church , and the people ●onsent to take the Parish Minister for their Pastor , and the Minister should exercise the whole power of a Pastor in this Parish church , Mr. B. may hold communion with this Parish church , and not own the Diocesan constitution . Ans . Of two churches in one assembly I spake before . 1. Doth this Author think that exercise of power is as essential to a Minister as Power : Yea , that it must be the whole power that is exercised ; and so that no one is a true Pastor among the Presbyterians , when the Classis exerciseth the highest part of the Power ; nor in Helvetia , where Discipline is unexercised ; nor in England from the first Reformation : Were all the Conformists that submitted to Diocesans no Church-Pastors ? nor no Independents , whose Churches having many Pastors and Elders , no one exerciseth ( no nor hath ) more than part of the power ? Integrity and essentiality , office and exercise , are not all one . 2. All good Ministers that I know in the Parish Assemblies , do consent to the Pastoral Office , and the people love them , and shew their consent by ordinary Communion ; and they exercise all essential to the office , tho under the restraints of Government , not owning ( in consent ) destructive , but governing Diocesans , some as de jure divino , lawful ; some as best , some as necessary , many as merely impowered to a cogent Government by the King ; and doth not your concession imply , that these are true Churches ? of intolerable men I speak not . 3. What you confidently deny , is certainly true : There may be two national churches in one nation , if not three ; that is , the word is equivocal , and hath divers sences ; and it is not called national , because all persons in the nation are of it , but because that the diffused parts of the Nation own it formally in a publick national relation . 1. A Christian Kingdom as such , is by many called a national Church ; thus England is such . 2. A coalition of the most , or all the publick Ministers in a Nation in Synodical Agreements for Communion as such , is called a National Church ; such also is England . 3. The subjection of the most of the Clergy in a nation by consent to some Ecclesiastical Primate , Patriarch , or other constitutive , governing Head ( as a Bishop is in his Diocess ) may make a national Church in another sence . The same men may be of divers of these equivocal Churches ; or if part be for one form , and part for another , yet agreeing in the same ordinary , external Communion ; one part may be called national as well as the other . The question is de ●omine , the name equivocal from diversity of relations : I own , 1. A Christian Kingdom . 2. I own a national association of Parish Churches and Pastors . 3. Tho these submit to Diocesan superiority , and be parts of a Diocess , but true single Churches , I do not therefore separate from them . 4 ▪ A national Church , headed by one constitutive , pastoral Head , I disown ; call which you will the national Church . But ( saith he of his approved parish Church ) , P. 14. Such a Church a●●i●meth to it self all that past●ral p●wer that in pursuance of Canon and Statute Law , is fixed in the Bishop . Ans . Incogitantly spoken ; Do all Independents assume the power of Ordination , Jurisdiction over others , Citations , Licencing , Subspendings , Degradings , silencings , instituting , inducting , &c. which are so fixed on the Bishop : If none of this be pastoral power , then the appropriating it is no depriving parish Ministers of pastoral power ; and to be under Magistrates power nulls not the pastors . XLIX . What he saith about unlawful terms of Communion , p 21. &c. in the instances of kneeling , putting off the hat , standing up , &c. I answer , 1. The Author all along seemeth to forget , that I am not accusing him , not telling every man his duty , but only giving the Reasons of my own and such others practice : so they make a long ado , to vindicate him whose Manuscript I answered , and say , His question was only , whether it be lawful to communicate with the churches as setled by Law , and not in other respects ? When I ever told them , I meddle with none of their Questions , but my own , viz , 1. Whether I and such other do well or ill in that communion we hold with the Parish Churches ? 2. Whether all Protestants in England are bound in conscience to renounce and avoid Communion in the Liturgy with all Parish Churches and Chappels , and rather to give over all church worship ? I only gave my Reasons , why that Manuscript ( divulged and boasted of as unanswerable ) changed not my Judgment ; and I answered that in his Arguments , which went further than the question put by them , and assaulted my own assertions ; having before in my Christian Directory , and cure of Church divisions ( without naming him ) fully answered his printed Reasons , to prove it unlawful to use an imposed form or Liturgy , especially because Ministers must use their own gifts . But if any man believe that it is a sin to communicate kneeling , or standing , or sitting , unless he lye down as Christ did ; or at any time , save at a feast or supper ; or any where save in an Inn or an upper room , or with any women , or more than twelve , or if they think it sin to kneel at prayer , or be uncovered , or to sing Psalms in our Metre and Tunes , whether these men should separate from all the Churches that will not receive them in their own way , or how far they do well or ill that will not let every man do what he will , is none of the case that I have before me : It will not follow , that I must separate from a Church that bids me kneel , and be uncovered , &c. because you take it to be sin : put not your measures on all others . And here because same maketh Mr. Faldo the Author of the Vindication , which I answered , that I may so far vindicate him , as to shew , that it 's ●earce likely ; I ask , whether if Mr. Faldo did well as a pastor to keep up a church at Barn●● many years , which would not endure the singing of a psalm of praise to God , but constantly forbore it , tho his Judgment was against them ▪ ( besides that many of them were not only against Infant Baptism , but f●rther differ'd in other things ) ? was this communion more lawful or laudable than with honest parish Ministers in the Liturgy ? Did he the whole office of a pastor : What if the Bishop had forbid him to sing ●salms ? Is not the Church State more concerned in the whole congregation ▪ than in an absent Bishop ? what greater omission or defect is there in many Parish-Churches ? I again say , that I am so far of the Judgment of Hildersham , John Ball , &c. that I had rather joyn ( caeteris paribus ) in a Church that useth the Psalms , Chapters , and all the Lords-day Prayers in the Liturgy , before Sermon , than one that only giveth us one Psalm ( or none ) and a Pulpit-prayer and a Sermon without all the rest of Church Worship . L. I will conclude all with repeating a little of the Explication of my misused writings ▪ I. The pastoral Oversight of the Laity by the Elders , or Bishops of the several Flocks , is of Christs Institution , and belongs to all true Presbyters : And tho in necessity it may be done by divers transient Ministers , pro tempore , most regularly , every Church should have it s stated Pastors . II. Where such Churches are large , the work requireth many Ministers , where each one hath but part of the Charge . III. Reason and Church-consent among these , made one a President over the rest , and called him the Bishop pecularly , ( if it were in Marks days , as Hierom saith , it was in John's ) . And tho this be not essential to a Church , it is lawful , and fit ; and at last it grew to so great a Reputation and Opinion of necessity , that all Churches had such Bishops , and gave them a Negative voice , and ordained not without them , and defined Churches as essentiated by Relation to them , Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata . If now such men as J.O. Mr. Nye , Dr. Goodwin , &c. should have in one Church six or seven young men of their own training up to be their Assistant-presbyters , I do not think an Independent Church would take it for any crime that he should have a Negative voice in acts of Order and Discipline , or that they should ordain Ministers therein without his Consent . IV. By degrees single Congregations increased to as many as our great Parishes that have Chappels , and tho still they communicated in the chief Church at some special times of the year ; they ordinarily met in divers places , and the Presbyters officiated some in one meeting , and some in another ; at first , whosoever the Bishop daily sent ; but after their particular Tyths or Chappels were assigned to each ; yet all together were esteemed but one Church , governed by one Bishop , and his Colledg of Presbyters . V. When they increased yet more and more , fixed Chappels were assigned to fixed Presbyters ; but not as distinct Churches , but parts of the Diocesan Church , tho at last they were larger than one Bishop and Colledg could guide , according to the first Institution . VI. Yet long every Christian City had a Bishop and Church , and every incorporate big Town , like our Corporations or Market-Towns , was called a City ( not because it had a Market , as a reverend Slanderer seigneth me to lay , but because Custom the master of Language , called all Corporations and great Towns by that name● : But at last the Bishops being loath to diminish their Jurisdiction , decreed that very small Cities should have no Bishops , ne vi●c●eat nomen Episc●pi . And in process of time in some Countries , the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or City , was appropriated at the Princes pleasure to some very few Corporations , peculiarly priviledged above the rest : So that a King that would have had but one Bishop in his Kingdom ( as it 's said that all the Aba●●ian Empire hath had but one ) might have done it by calling but one Town a City . VII . Yet the People and Bishops being sensible that there was more work For a Bishop in a City-Diocess , than one could do ; in many Countries they had Rural Bishops set over P●pul●ns country Churches : And tho these were subject to the Diocesans , yet hereby the Churches were multiplied : But the Bishops soon grew jealous and weary of these Rural-Bishops , and most places put them down , and set up instead of them a kind of Itinerant visiting Presbyters , empowring all Arch-Bishops and Ach ▪ Deacons , till at last to save themselves the labour , and yet not diminish their Dominion , they set up the Courts of Lay-Chancellors , Officials , and many such Offices , besides the Arch-Deacons , Surrogates , &c. VIII , ▪ In England ( as is agreed by most Historians ▪ ) at first one Bishop had but one Church or Temple . ( And at Luindisfarne saith Bede , It was so po●● a thing , that it was a house thatcht with reeds . ) The Pastor of this one Church was to convert as many as he could in all the Countrey about him . The Heathen Country might be his Diocess , but not his Church . The converted Christians got into several Monasteries , and not into Parish-Churches . These Monasteries were partly for Society in Religious Exercise , and partly for Studies , like Schools to Educate Youth for the Ministry ▪ So that long a Diocess was only the Bishops Church with divers Monasteries . At last , Gentlemen for their convenience built and endowed Parish-Churches ; the Bishops old single Churches being called the Cathedrals : And finally , by the help of Princes , all the Land was divided into Parishes , subject to the Cathedral-Bishops , to whom Deans and Chapters were added in imitation of the old Bishops Colledg of Presbyters in every single Church . IX . When the Rural-Bishops were put down , the Presbyters power in their several Parishes was somewhat enlarged : And the Diocesses at last became so great , that the Bishops were sain to commit more of the oversight to the Presbyters : Tho they kept them under by severe Canons , Lay-Deputies , and the Cogent Sword. X. It grew then a controversie among the Papists themselves , whether the Parish Incumbents were proper Pastors , and had any Power of Government , and how much . And my Objectors confess , that they were reputed Pastors among the Papists , and that Linwood calleth them Pastors , and the Laity Oves : I have cited in Treat of Epis . ●ilesa●us , and many more that prove it . Ant. de Dom. Spalatensis , is large and full in it . Sp●lman in R. A●l●ricks Law , shews that the Bishop and Presbyter made but one of their seven Orders : A great sort of the Schoolmen say the same . Most Drs. say , That the Presbyters essentially as Sacredetes , have the power of the Keys , inf●ro interi●re ; by which they mean not , a power that must be kept secret , but that which consisteth in the perswas●v● use of Gods word on C●nfer●n●e , privately or publickly , as distinct from Magisterial and C●gent Power . And if they ●e of one Order , then if one be a Past●r , the other is so also . That they are taken , but in partem curae , is nothing against it , but for it . For equal Presbyters in one Church , have each but partem curae . The Reformation finding th●ngs in this case , determined none of the disputes , de nomine , Whether Parish Rectors shall be called ●pis●op●s Gregis , or Pastors , or Rectors , or I●cumb●nts ; but use these names promiscuously . Nor did they dispute whether the Parishes are Political Churches . But the Definition , and not the Name , is the thing now before us in debate . God hath given every such Minister the essence of a Pastoral oversight of his Flock : Men may hinder the Exercise , but can no more alter the Christian Office Power , than they can deprive a Husband of the power over his Wife . And the Diocesans at last have been necessitated to permit the essential Pastoral power ( by the word ) to the Incumbents , having none else to use it by . But Lawyers have taught many to call nothing Government , that is not Cogent on the unwilling ; and so to say , that Government is not in the Presbyters , but the Bishops ; and that all is derived from the King ; which is all true , of Cogent Government by the Sword , in f●ro exteriore ; but not as to Pastoral Government of the Flock by Gods w●rd . As Bishop Bilson of Obedience hath distinguished , and applied well at large . XI . Now to come nearer our Case , Diocesan Bishops have put down the ranks of Bishops which of old was setled as Presidents over the Presbyters in every Church , in Cities , and of the lowest Order ( described by Ignatius , and Cyprian , and others ) : Every lowest Church hath not now a Bishop over the Presbyters , as it had for divers hundred years . And by this they have unchurched all the old sort of Churches in the sense of them that say , There is no Church where there is no Bishop over Pre●byters : And they have set up a Diocesan Church and Bishop , only w●●re should be many Churches and Bishops ; and thus , 〈◊〉 hom●●●m , I argued with them , &c. But indeed this Parochial Episcopacy , or Pr●sid●ncy being wrongfully said to be Essential to the Church ( being at most b●t useful to peace , ad melius esse ) and the Epicopacy or Pastoral care of the Laity without any power over the Clergy ; being it that is essential to single Church Pastors , In truth no man can alter this . In Consent and ●●putati●n , it is altered by those that think Parish Curates no Pastors , and deny any Essential power over their Flocks . But it is not in Consent and Reputation destroyed by them that acknowledg their Essential power , and subject only themselves as Pastors to the oversight of Diocesans and Magistrates . They do but destroy the 〈…〉 of Episcopacy of humane Institution ( which was over Presbyters in 〈◊〉 Ch●rch●● ▪ but not the Episcopacy over the Flock which is of Christs Ins●i●utio● ▪ XII . 〈◊〉 whether most in England are of this Opinion , or of that , for 〈◊〉 or for meer g●verning Episcopacy , and which way the Laws go , and 〈◊〉 may be called the sense of the Church , when Convocations and Bishops seem to differ , and men change their Opinions with the Age and Interest , it is impossible for me to be sure . But I know how they govern , by what Canons , and by what Courts ; and as all their Cogent power is from the King , it is no wonder if they be chosen by him : But the old sort of Bishops that had no forcing power , was so constantly otherwise chosen , that their Canons nulled the Magistrates choice . And our present Canons since 1604 , tho they null not the Parochial Pastorship , do so far restrain it , as I hope my Conscience shall never approve . But yet , for that I will not forsake what is of God , nor make mans failings a pretence against my duty to God and Man , to the Violation of Love , Unity and Peace . Yet I will try by distinct speaking to make both the Case and my meaining plainer , if I can : And thereby to shew , that our case differeth but gradually from the old Nonconformists , as to Lay-mens Parochial Communion , where there are honest Ministers . And that the old Nonconformists had better Evidence , Scripture and Reason on their side , than either those Innovators , who make Parish-Pastors to be but de specie , of humane Institution , made by Bishops , and changeable by them , having just so much power as they please to give them ; or the Brownists , that are so much of the same Principles , as to think that mens Laws or Canons can change the form of the Office , or that judg it nullified by tollerable Imperfections , and Communion made unlawful by such faults , as are found in almost all the Churches on Earth . Qu. Whether according to the description of the Scripture , and the exposition of Dr. Hammond himself , all qualified Parish Ministers be not true Pastors and Bishops of the Flocks , and with their consenting Christian Communicants , true particular Churches ; and de facto all be not in the power given them by God , which is essential hereto , and in the power generally acknowledged by the legal Church ? Ans . I have spoken to this so largely in my Treatise of Episcopacy , ( and there added the testimonies of Writers , old and new , Protestants and Papists ( that I will give but a breviate of it here . The essence of the Church Ministry consisteth in POWER and OBLIGATION FROM CHRIST , to teach , to guide in Worship , and to oversee and guide the Conversation and Communion of the Flocks ; If it were not of Christ , they were but officers of men , de specie , even of an office of mans making . Dr. Hammond saith , that Christ gave the Keys only to the Apostles , and they only to their Successors : That there is no evidence that there were any of a second order of Presbyters in Scripture time ; that this order was after made by Man , Mr. Dodwell sheweth how and why ; and more fully than Dr. Hammond , asserteth , that such Presbyters have no more power than the ordaining Bishops intended to give them : Or saith Dr. H. If they have a first power , it is such as may not be exercised without a second ; so that it is indeed no true power to act : And the Dr. plainly tells the London Ministers p. 80 , 81. There is no manner of incongruity in assigning of one Bishop to one Church , and so one Bishop in the Church of Jerusalem , because it is A. CHURCH , not Churches : being forced to acknowledg that where there were more Churches , there were more Bishops . And he denied our Presbyters , that were not Diocesans , to be Bishops ( both City and Country Presbyters ) : And consequently that our Parishes were no Churches . And on these grounds he and Bishop Gunning , and such others , judged Presbyters Ordination null , because they were no Bishops . And the said Dr. ( tho I thought he had been next Petavius , one of the first that had expounded the new Testament Elders , to be all Bishops of several Diocesses ) yet tells us that he thought most of his brethren were of his mind herein : And when we in Worcestershire formed a Pacificatory Association of the Epicopal , Presbyterians , Indep●ndents , and Peace-makers , agreeing lovingly to practice so much in Doctrine , Worship and Discipline as we were for , according to our several principles , forbearing each other in the rest , and Dr. Warmst●●● , and Dr. Tho. Good , being for Bishops , subscribed to it , Dr. Peter Gunn●●g wro●e largely against so doing to Dr. Warmstrie , and took him off , upon these aforesaid principles ; and they then called their Judgment , the Judgment of the Church of England , and wrote as if the Church had been of their mind , and gone their way . I wrote ●large Answer to Dr Gunning's Paper , ( not printed ) and proved that the old Protestant Bishops and Doctors were of another mind , largely citing their testimonies in my Christian C●nc●rd , and plainly warned English Protest●nts to take heed of these Innovators , and that the name of the Church and Episcopacy deceive them not against the Church and Protestant Cau●e ; many ●ose against me for this with great indign●tion , especially Arch-Bishop Bramhall , and two or three learned Writers , and would make the world believe , that it was the Church of England which I sought to defame and bring under suspition , and which owned Gr●tius and his way of Reconciliation with Rome , when as it was for departing from the professed principles of the reformed Bishops and Doctors , and from the book of Ordination , and other writings of the Church that I blamed them : Yet would they needs claim the name of the Church of England . And it is not here seasonable for me to tell , how many and how great men in 1661 , and 1662 seemed by their w●rds and doings to be full ( at least ) as high as they , nor how they expressed it , nor how many strongly conceited by the Act th●● requireth reordination of men ordained by Presbyters , and by the number rejected who refused it , That the Parliament had been of th●ir mind , and much more the ●●nv●cation called the church-repr●sentative ; especi●lly when they heard men call the old Bishops and Arch-Bishops ( such as ●sher , Downame , 〈◊〉 , &c. in I●eland , and G. Abbot , Rob. A●b●t , Grindal , and many such in England ) Puritans and Presbyterians : And when P●● . H●l●● maketh Arch bishop Abbot . and the Bishops and Clergy in his days to ●e of one mind ( vilified by him ) and Arch-bishop Laud and his Clergy after , of another : In this case I gave the name of the present Diocesans , to those that thus claimed it , and pretended so confidently to the present possession of it ; but I thought not their claim just : And when I sometimes used the name of English Di●cesans , for this sort who nullifie the Parish Churches and Pastorship , it was but to notifie them that so claimed it , supposing I had oft sufficiently opened my sense , and usually added that they nullifie them not effectively , but quantum in se , and by their consequences . But I again now tell the Reader , that I think the Judgment of the church of England , considered as humanely constituted by publick professions , and by Law , ( much less as divinely constituted ) is not to be measured or named from any innovators , or any that most confidently claim it , or think they are uppermost at the present , and thereby have that right ; but ( as Divine ) by Gods word , whose sufficiency we all profess ; and as humane , by the published Church professions ; that is , the Liturgy , the book of Ordination , the 39 Articles of Religion , the Apology of the Church of England , the Defence of that Apology set in all Churches , the book of H●milies , Nowels Catechism , the R●f●rmatio Legum Ec●les ▪ the Canons , and the licenced books of the Protestant Bishops and Doctors , such as Arch-bp . Cranmers , Bp. H●●pers , Arch-bp . ●arkers , Arch-bp . Grin●als , Arch-bp . Abbots , Arch-bp . Edward Sandys , Arch-bp . Whitgift , Bp. Pilk●nton , Bp. Jewel , Bp. Ally , Bp. Babingt●n , Bp. M●rt●n , ●p . Hall , Bp. Davenant , Bp. ●rideaux , Bp. Br●wn●ig , B. ●otter , Bp. Miles Smith , Bp. Carl●on , Bp Bayly , Bp. Parry , Bp. C●wper , and many more such , ( besides those in Ir●land aforesaid ) : And such ●rs as Dr. Wh●taker , Dr Field , Dr. Crakenth●●pe , Dr. Sutlive , Dr. Mas●n , Dr. VVhite , Dr. ●i●y , Dr. Chaloner , Dr. VVard , Dr. VVillet , Dr. Holland ▪ and abundance more ; besides all other old licenced Writers : I think that all these do fitlier notify and denominate the Church of Englands Judgment , than the Writings of one Irish Arch-Bp . and Dr. Hammond , and Dr. Gunning ( since Bp. ) and a few more such in the points wherein they differ from the rest , ( tho Grotius and their Chaplains be added to the number . ) And now I will add this further evidence in the conclusion , ( besides that as I said before ) the present Laws put us to abjure alterations , and therefore sure they never thought that they so altered the Government themselves , that even while they say that the Parishes are no Churches , but parcels of Churches , and the Priests are no Bps. of the Flock , most really acknowledg them the thing , that deny the Name . And the argument from the definition is stronger than from the Name . And here I will but name first , the Scripture descriptions of a Bp. and 2. Dr. Hammonds exposition of those Texts . 3. And the matter of fact among us . The first part of the Bps. office is teaching the flock . Under this teaching part , 1. the Bishops office is to preach to them , 1 Pet. 5.2 , 3. Feed the flock of God which is among you , taking the oversight ( Or Episcopacy ) thereof , &c. Dr. Hammond : The Bps. of your several Churches I exhort . — Take care of your several Churches , and Govern them , &c. Qust . Whom doth the Law require to do more in feeding and guiding the flock ? The Incubment that preacheth daily , or the Bp. that never seeth the most , nor ever preacheth to one Flock of many ? Who are they [ that are among the Flock ] the Incumbent that dwells with them , or the Bp. that is a stranger to them ? 1 Thes . 5.12 . We beseech you brethren to know them that labour among you , and are over you in the Lord , and admonish you , and to esteem them very highly in love for their work sake , and be at peace among your selves . Dr. Hammond . Pay your Bps. as great a respect as is possible , for the pains they have taken among you . Qust . Who Laboureth among them most in the several parishes , publickly and privately ? The Bp. that never saw them , or the Incumbent that layeth out all his Study and Time on them ? Who are most among them ? Who most admonisheth them ? What is meant by [ among themselves ? ] Is it that Lincoln shire , Leicester-shire , Northamton-shire , Buckingham-shire , be at peace among themselves , from Gainsborough to Oxford-shire ? or is it not rather that neighbour Christians that see each other , so live in peace ? 1 Tim. 5.17 . The elders that rule well , are worthy of double honour ; especially they tha● labour in the word and doctrine . Dr. Hammond : Let the Bps. that have discharged that function well , receive for their reward twice as much as others have ; especially those that preach the Gospel , to whom it was news , and continue to instruct congregatons of Christians in setled Churches . Quest . On whom doth the law impose most preaching ? On Bps. or on parish Priests ? And who doth most of that work ? Heb. 13. Remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of God. Dr. Hammond : Set before your eyes the Bps. and governours , who have been in your Church , and preached the Gospel to you . Quest . Ask the parishes who those be ? 2 Tim. 4.2 . I charge thee before God , and the Lord Jesus Christ , who shall judg the qui●k and the dead at his appearing , and his Kingdom , preach the word , be instant in season , out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , with all long suffering and d●●●rine . Not only Dr. Hammond , but all that are for Prelacy expound this of a Bps office . Quest . Ask the people who most performs it . 2. The Bps Office is also to watch over all the Flock , personally , by conference , instruction ▪ counsel , admonition , exhortation , reproof , comfort , as every one shall need Saith Bp. Jer. Tayl●r Pref. to Treat of Rep. No man can give account of th●se that he knoweth not . Acts 20.10 , 28 , 31. I taught you publickly , and from house to house . — Take heed t● your selves , and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you Bps , to ●eed the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own Blood. — Therefore watch , and remember that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears . Dr. Hammond . Instructing both in the Synagogues , and the private Schools , and in your several houses whither I also came . — Wherefore ye that are Bps. or governors of the several Churches . — Look to your selves , and the Churches committed to your trust , to Rule and order all the faithful under you . Quest . Is this done more by the Diocesans , or by the Incumbents ? Do Diocesans teach from house to house , from Southwark to Christ-Church , from N●wark to Alesbury or Tame ? Who doth the law appoint to warn every one in the Church , from house to house , and night and day , & c. ? Col. 1.28 . Whom we preach , warning every man , and teaching every man in all wisdom , that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus ; Heb. 13.17 . Obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as those that must give account . Dr. Hamm●nd : Obey those that are set to rule over your several Churches , the Bps. whose whole care is spent among you , as being to give account of your proficiency in the Gospel . Q●st . Is it the Diocesan or the Incumbent that the law requireth to preach to , and warn every man , & c. ? And that watch for their Souls as those that must give account ? Is not the incumbent of this or that parish fitter to watch and give account of each Soul , than the Diocesan for a whole Country , or many Counties , who never saw them ? Can he do as Ignatius's Bishops , that must take notice of all the Church , even Servants and Maids ? 3. The bishops office is to be a visible example to all the flock , of Humility , Meekness , Patience , Holiness , Charity and good Works . Heb. 13.7 . Remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of God , whose faith follow , considering the end of their conversations . Dr. Hammond : Set before your eyes the Bishops — observe their manner of living . Quest . VVho can observe his example whom he never saw nor know ? Or who can make an unknown man his pattern ? Do the fl●cks see more the Incumbents example , or the Diocesans ? It is their example that sak to them thword of God , that the Apostle sets before them : And who be those ? Perhaps it will be said , that Fame may tell the Di●cess of the example of their Diocesan , tho they see him n●t . I answer , 1. But the Text speaketh of those that preach to them . Fame may as well tell us of the good works of any other bishop , as of the Diocesan : Many bishops in London live near us ; it may tell us of any other good mans life . What is this to the Text ? 1 Pet. 5.3 . Neither as being Lords over Gods heritage , but being examples to the flock . Dr. Hammond : VValking Christianly and exemplary before them . Q. VVhat ? Before them that never knew them , nor could do ? Doth the Diocesan or the Incumbent more walk as a known example before the Parish flock , for their imitation ? 4. It is part of a bishops office as a general Minister , not only to teach the Church , but to preach to those that are yet no Members of the Church , Matth 28.19 . Go and disciple me all nations . 1 Tim. 5.17 . They that 〈◊〉 in the word and doctrine . Dr. Hammond : To preach the Gospel to whom it was n●ws . Acts 26.17 , 18. To whom I send thee , to ●p●n their eyes , and turn them from darkness to light , and from the p●wer of Satan unto God , &c. Not that fixed Pastors must wander to do this , as un●ixed Missionaries ; but within their reach . Hence Dr. Hammond noteth out of Clemens R●m . That they are made Bishops over the Infidels that should after believe● : And bishop D●wname saith , that the City and Territories are their Diocesses , when the Christians were but few ; and as Dr. H. saith , But one Congregation , whic● one bishop only with a Deacon or two served : So that either a Diocess was no Church , or it was a Diocesan Church of Heathens save that Congregation . Our great Parishes , that have 70000 , or 60000 , or 40000 , or 20000 souls , have not the sixth part ( that I say not the tenth ) so many Communicants . Who is it that preacheth most for the Conversion of the rest , Atheists , Sadduces , Infidels , Hereticks , Bruitists , and impious ones ? Is it the Diocesan or the Incumbent ? Who doth the Law most require it of ? 5. It is part of the Boshops office to Catechize or Teach the Novices that have need of milk , and are as Children in danger of being tost up and down and carried to and fro with every wind of Doctrine . See Eph 4.14 , 15 , 16 ▪ Heb. 5.11 , 12. With Dr. Hammonds Paraphrase . Quest . Doth the Law and Church lay more of this on Diocesans ▪ or parish Pastors ? 6. It is the Bishops work to defend the truth against gainsayers , and confute adversaries , and stop the mouths of Hereticks , Infidels , and other enemies ; as is confest by Dr. Hammond , on many Texts to Timothy and Titus , as 2 Tim. 2.24 , 25 , &c. Not by force , but by evidence of truth . And doth not the Law and Church lay more of this on the Incumbents , than the Diocesans ( who are not U●iquitaries ) ? II. The Second part of the Bps. office , is Guidance , and officiating before the Church in publick worship ; in subordination to Christs Priesthood . 1. By confessing sin , and to be the subintercessor , or the mouth of the Church in publick prayer , thanksgiving , and praise to God. 2. In Consecrating , and Distributing , and giving in Christs Name , the Sacrament of Communion . 3. To bless the Congregation in the name of the Lord , &c. All these Dr. Hammond maketh the Bps. office , and so doth the Scripture , and so did Justin Martyr , Tertullian , &c. Citations in a confessed case would but be tedious . Quest. And who doth this most in all the Churches ? Who confesseth sin , prayeth for mercy , praiseth God , administreth the Lords Supper , blesseth the people , &c. The Bp ▪ to many hundred Churches , or each Incumbent to each Church ? And on whom doth the Law most impose it ? And what doth the Diocesan in it , more than any one of the rest ? 2. Dr Hanmond , on Acts 2. And Acts 4.33 , 34 , 35. Sheweth that it was the Bps. part , to receive all the offerings of the Communicants , and all the tythes and first fruits , &c. Who doth this most ? The Diocesan in all the Parishes of his Diocesse , or the Incumbents ? 3. Dr Hammond , ( and many old Canons before him ) tells us , that the Bp. was out of the Church flock , to take care of all the poor , orphans , widows , strangers ; Deacons were herein but servants under them ▪ Dr. Hammond , on 1 Cor 12.28 . The supreme trust and charge was reserved to the Apostles and Bps. of the Church . But the poor will starve if the Incumbent with his assistance do not more in this than the Diocesan . 4. It is the Bps. office to visit the sick . Jam ▪ 5. Call for the elders of the Church , and let them pray over him , &c. Dr. Hammond , in v. 14. Because there is no evidence , whereby these may appear to have been so early brought into the Church ( that is Subpresbyters ) and because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plural doth as way conclude that th●re were m●re of these elders than one in each particular Church , and because elders of the Church was both in the Scriptures style , and in the first writers the title of Bps. and lastly , because the visiting of the sick is anciently mentioned as one branch of the office of Bps. therefore it may very reasonably be resolved that the Bps. of the Church , one in each particular Church , are here meant . Quest . Is it the Diocesan ( perhaps 50 Miles off ) that the sick must send for , or that the Law and Church impose this on , ( to visit the sick , and pray over them , &c. ) ? or is it the Incumbents ? III. But the great doubt is , who hath the Power of Government , and who actually governs , ( not by the sword ) but with the Ministerial Pastoral Government ? And here it must still be remembred . 1. That this particular power of the Keys or Government , is only by the word of God opened and applied ; as Bp. Bilson hath proved , and is commonly confessed ; some call it Perswasive , some Directive , some Doctrinial ; But it is not such meer direction or perswasion as any man may use to another ; but such as is the part of one commissioned to it as his office ; An Authoritative perswasion , and a Judicial decision , as by an intrusted steward of Christ : but only on Conscience , and on Voluntiers , and not by any power to exercise force on body or purse . 2. That Governing , and unjust restraining this power , is not taking it away from the Pastor ; and laying penalties on men for exercising some part of that which Christ hath given , doth but bind men to bear that penalty when the exercise is necessary . Now let us consider wherein the Governing Power doth consist . 1. It primarily consisteth in judging who is capable of Baptisme and so Baptizing them . This is the first and great exercise of the Keys , and that 〈◊〉 foro exteriore . To judge who shall be taken publ●ckly for a Christian , and in Christs Name to invest him solemnly in the number of the faithful , delivering him a sealed pardon of all his sins , and a grant of right to grace and glory . Can there be a higher exercise of the Keys ? Matth. 28.19 , 20. It is the Apostles work [ Disciple me all nations , baptizing them , &c. ] And Dr. Hamm●nd thinketh that in Scripture-time there were no Baptizing Presbyters , but Bishops ; and indeed it is so great a use of the Keys , that this chiefly condemneth Laymens and womens Baptizing ; at least the trying the Catechized , and judging of their capacities must needs be the prime great act of Church-Power , whatever be said of the execut●●n . Now Papists and Protestants generally place this Power in Parochial Incumbents , yea , and in all other ●resbyters : Even those that convert Countreys of Infidels , and are under no particular Bishop , must baptize and judg of the Catechumens capacity for baptism ; and are Parish Incumbents denied this Office ▪ power of the Keys ? and is it the Diocesan or they that use it by baptizing ? Obj. The Canon requireth them to baptize all Infants brought according to law , and so not to be the Judges . Ans . You should say , and so command● them how to judge . The Magistrate may command men how to do their office-work , and yet neither be the maker nor unmaker of the office , ( tho he mistake : ) If Rulers misgovern , that 's their sin , but the office of Pastors is still the same , and we must not misobey , but suffer , and as B●shop Bilson saith , Go on with our work as long as we can . 2. And to bid them do more than they would , is not to null their power of doing less . And to punish a man for his duty , is not to di●oblige him from it , till it truly disable him . 2. A second great exercise of the Church Keys , is Ministerially as from Christ to declare his Laws ▪ and charge men to obey them , both the Church together , and particular persons singly . As Legislation is the first and great part of Christs Government [ before Judicature ] so the Ministerial declaring Christs commands , and demanding obedience , is the great act of Government . The same word therefore comprehendeth feeding and ruling , 1 Pet 5.2 , 3. &c. Matth. 24.45 , 46. Who then is a faithful and wise servant , whom his Lord hath made ruler over his houshold , to give them meat in due sea●●n ? It is ruling by seasonable feeding . 1 Thes . 5.12 . To be over them , is exercised by labouring amongst them , and admonishing them , 1 Tim. 5.17 . Ruling well , is nothing greater than labouring in the word and d●ctrine , 1 Tim. 3.2 . A Bish●p must be apt to teach : Dr. Hammond , One that is able and ready to communicate to others the knowledg that he him●elf hath . Heb. 13.7 , ●7 , 24. Ruling the fl●ck is by teaching and watching over th●m . To be the greatest is to be most serviceable to all ; to be ruled by them , is to know them , to esteem them highly in love for their works sake , to obey Gods word delivered by them , and their conduct in mutable circumstances , Heb. 13.7 . 1 Thes . 5.12 And to imitate their good examples , 1 Pet. 5.3 . And what law forbids Incumbents to promulgate Christs commands , and charge men to obey them ? Or to go to any negligent person of his Flock with the same charge ? or to go to any Drunkard , Fornicator , Railer , and to tell him from God of h●s sin and danger , and exhort and command him to repent and amend ? And who most doth this work among us ? 3. Another part of Government is to judg professing Christians capable of Sacramental Communi●● , and admit them , and deliver it them as Christs Ministers , b● his com●●●si●● , an● from him ; And therein to renew their publick abso●ution , and the●r Co●enant p●i●●ledg , and their delivered part in Christ , and right to life : No●e dare d●●y that this is a high part of the power of the Keys , and proper Governme●t , to judg who is capable of Church Communion , and receive them , and deliver them from Christ , the pledg of life . And all Papists and Protestants almost , judg this power essential to the Priesthood , and common to all Parochial Incumbents : And the Church of England ( as I said before ) , 1. Delivereth it to them in Ordination . 2. Requireth them to catechize and cert●fie for such as shall be confi●med ; and methinks the Diocesan here useth less of the judicial power than the Incumbent , for he doth but lay his hands on them and say a prayer over such as come to him ; for no man can dream that he can examine all the people in his Diocess so far as to judg whether they are fit for Communion : Therefore he is supposed but to execute the judgment of the certifying Incumbent ( If he take all at a venture , without a certificate , or knowledg , or if the Incumbent be unfaithful , I cannot help or excuse that ) . 3. They are required to keep away all that be not confirmed , or ready , and desirous of it . 4. They may hear any just accusation of the scandalous . 5. They may admonish him , ( if he will speak with them ) . 6. They may refuse him if obstinate and impenitent . 7. They may declare the reason why they do so , as Christs Ministers by his Authority , and tell the Church their duty to avoid the Communion of such . 8. They may bind him over to answer his contumacy at the Bar of God ; and what of this is denied by the Church , to belong to the Incumbents Office ? and who else is capable of doing this in Parishes that have multitudes of ungodly persons ? If all this should be made so difficult by the multitude and badness of delinquents , or by bad Canons , or bad Government of the Church by Diocesans , Officials , &c. and thereby be almost all left undone , I cannot help that , nor excuse it ; but what I have said against such doing is too little : And if Priests be so bad , that they will ( any where ) sooner scorn it than practice it , at the rate that it must cost them , I am as much against such Priests as others are : But I will not therefore make the Office of Christ● Ministers , the creature of man , and mutable at his will ▪ nor will I forsake faithful Ministers for the sake of the perfidious ; no nor for their own tolerable faults or imperfections . And now consider seriously , 1. Whether there be any essential part of the office of a Pastor , denied by that which may justly be called the Church of England , to the Parish Incumbents . 2. And whether incomparably more of it , even of the government of the flocks , by the K●ys of Christs Institution , be not by Law and Canon required , and in fact performed by the said Incumbents , than by the Diocesans . And whether any use it , if they do not . If it be alledged , that I have in my Treatise of Episcopacy , named many instances in which they are deprived of the exercise of the very essentials ; I still answer , that if any shall by misgoverning Canons or practise lay penalties on them that will perform their office , these do their part to destroy it ; but their sin may consist with the true office that is hindred : If we cannot pray without penalty , we are yet bound to pray : And if any such penalties should prevail with any Ministers to cast off so much of Discipline as is indeed their duty , their office is so far destroyed as to its exercise : But it is not every ill Council , Canon , Bishop or Priest of old when they began to be corrupted , that changed and nullified the Pastoral Power and Office as from Christ . I have repeated things over and over here , because I would not be misunderstood , nor leave a snare behind me to mislead men . The sum again is , 1. The Pastoral Office in specie is instituted by Christ and his Spirit , therefore the essence of it is unchangeably fixed by him ; and no Bishops or Churches may change it , by pretending they may give Presbyters as their servants what degree or kind of power they please ; or make the office another thing . II. The said office in mutable accidents or circumstances may be altered by Princes Laws , or the several Churches Agreements , and thus far it is humane . Of the Divine sort was the Apostolick and other extraordinary Prophetick offices : And the ordinary Presbytery , commonly called Priesthood , and Elders setled over particular Churches , were Episc●pi Gregis ; Bishops , over the flock . And of the humane sort is the Presidency of one in every single Church over the rest of the Presbyters , who was the Episcopus Presbyterorum , a Bishop over the Presbyters of one single Church as well as over the people : This was the old Episcopacy of the first three Centuries ; this is it which I say our Diocesans have put down ; and we that would have them restored , and would have such a Bishop and Assistant , Elders in every Church , are by the heighth of impudency , said to be against Bishops , because we would have them restored to each Church ( tho not as essential to it , as hath been thought of old ) yet as a way of peace , to comply with Ant●quity , and avoid singularity ; and they that put down many score or hundred Bishops and instead of them would have but one , call themselves Episcopal . III. Whether Arch-bps . ( Diocesans . ) as successors of the Apostles in the ministerial care of many Churches ( by the word and not the sword ) be of Divine or Human Institution , I am in doubt . IV. The cogent Power by the Sword is only the Magistrates ; and if Diocesans appropriate this only , they are Magistrates ; and thereby take none of our office from us . V. The ●ssence of the Parish ministerial oversight being of God , de specie , and the accidents that are mutable from man , the existence of the office in individual persons , is not without consent of the Pastors ; so that no man can be a Pastor against or without his will ; ( nor yet without a capacity in qualifi●ati●n ; so that if you prove any person to be uncapabl● , or else to have truly disclaimed and renounced the essentials of his office : I am not about to perswade you , that such a man is a true Pastor . VI. But then we must know , that indeed it is such an incapacity , or renunciation , and not a tollerable defect ; nor subscriptions and Oaths , which by unseen consequences may seem to renounce it , when the man took them in a sense which renounced it not : For tho such a man may greatly sin by taking Oaths or subscriptions in a forced sense , which plainly taken would infer worse , yet his sin is not a renunciation of the office , if he declare that he meant it in a better sence , and took it on such mistake ; for we must not for bare words against mens meaning , quibble or dispute our selves into unwarrantable separations out of Christian Communion , especially when it is specially necessary . VII . And if any lay-men , or men unauthorized will usurp the Keys , or any Councils will make hurtful Canons , and hinder men in the work appointed by God , we must be faithful and patient , and God in due time will judg and decide all causes justly . VIII . The office-power is essentially related to the work ; so far as Parochial Incumbents are allowed the work as of Christ , they are acknowledged to be Pastors and Bishops of the flocks , tho the name were denied them ; and so far as the Bishops office may be delegated to Lay-men , or to Clergy-men of another Order ; so far it is Humane , and not proper to them by Gods Institution . They therefore that say , All Diocesans Jurisdiction may be so delegated to them that are no Bishops , but that the Pastoral Rectorship by Word , Sacraments and Keys cannot be delegated to any men that are not of the same office ; do thereby say as much , as that the Diocesan government is of men ( and may be changed by men ) but the Pastoral Incumbency is of Christ , and cannot be changed . The Lord that instituted it , protect it ; and save it from Satans most dangerous assault , which is by getting his own servants into it by error , and malignity , and strife , and cruelty , to do his work as the Ministers of Righteousness , and as by Christs Authority , and in his name . London Aug. 13. 1684. POSTSCRIPT Aug. 25. 1684. HE that gave me notice of this Book which I answer , did withall send me a Manuscript to be privately answered , containing the very same things , but somewhat enlarged : His displeasure against my former mention of his private Writings to me , and the Contents , made me confident that he would not have any thing Published which I should answer to his last : By which I found my self in a notable strait : For if he at once privately sent me his reasons , and also in another Book Printed them , if I should answer his private papers ( which reason forbad me doing in my condition , for his use alone ) I should judg my self forestalled from answering the Printed Book , because the matter being the very same ( and 't is likely by the same man ) I should be supposed to have broken the Laws of Civility , to have answered his private papers . But ( having no Amanuensis , or Scribe to take any Copy of his papers , or my own ) I thought it the best way to return his unanswered ( they being Written for my use , which Reading will as fully serve as answering them ) but supposing the Printed papers must be answered , I inserted also an answer to the strength of all his additionals in the Manuscript . And at last he giveth me some notice of his thoughts of publishing the Manuscript , or a vindication of it . Which falls well for the Readers use , that I have answered that Manuscript before it is Published , without taking notice of it , and s● avoiding wordy altercations . The Author professeth himself my great acquaintance . Who he is , I know not ; but he seemeth to be a very rational sober man. God forbid that I should ever contribute ( unless duty do it accidentally ) to the grievance of such men . I doubt not but he speaketh as he thinketh . And I doubt I have given him occasions by some uncautelous words in my writings . I truly thank God and him , that I am called to review them , and to clear my sence before I die . And I adjure the tearing persecuting sect , to think no more strangely and odiously of our differences in this case , than of the sharp contention of Paul and Barnabas ; or that men should scramble if Gold and Pearls were scattered in the streets , where dogs and swine would never strive about them . Gods servants would please him : we are all of weak understandings : The Wisest best know their weakness : The rest are nearest the state of the Fool , who rageth and is confident . It is impossible but offence must come , Luke 17.1 . But wo , wo , wo , to any who will make canons so extreme hard for men to agree in as terms of their Union and Communion , and excommunicate all that say a word against any word , ceremony , circumstances or office of their train ; and when they have done , cry out against men for not agreeing to every syllable , which a thousand to one are uncapable of understanding , and the better men understand them , the more they dislike them . A Short Answer to the Chief Objections in a Book ENTITULED : A Theological Dialogue , &c. THE chief matter of this Book is already answered by the Holy Ghost , 1 Cor. 1.10 . 1 Cor. 3. Rom. 16.16 , 17. Eph. 4.4 . to the 17. Phil. 2.1 , 2 , 3. 1 Thes . 5.12 , 13. John 17.22 , 23 , 24. And 1 Cor. 12. And Acts 20.30 . The Spirit and Stile of it is answered in the third Chapter of James throughout . I have nothing then to do but to answer the pretended argumentation of it : For the Author shall not draw me from my Defensive part , to play the part of a plaintif against others , or to wast my time in altercations , and spend many sheets to tell the world that another man hath not skill to speak sence , and that he seduceth others by ambiguous words , and by confusions . Obj. 1. To prove us sinful for being members of the Church of England , he saith Pag. 15. [ Is he not by Communion in the Sacarment of Baptisme made a member ? Page 13. Is not Baptisme ( according to the Liturgy ) a symbol of incorporation into the Church of England ? Confirmation another ? receiving the Lords Supper another symbol ? &c. Ans . 1. Baptism as such incorporateth no man into any particular Church , but only into the universal , as it did the Eunuch , Acts 8. 2. The ceremonies or circumstantials of Baptism , only shew what men submit to , rather than to be unbaptized , and not what particular Church they are of . 3. This objection would insinuate that all that are Baptized in the publick manner in England , were thereby incorporated into an unlawful Church , which they must by being rebaptized , or by open renunciation disclaim , And so that it is not Lawful to Communicate with any that were Baptized in the Parish Church , till they have repented it , or are Rebaptized , or Penitent openly . And if you must have all in England renounce their Baptism before you will take their Communion for lawful , the same reason will hold against your Communion with all the rest of the Churches on Earth . And when you cut off your self from all , saving a shred , are you a Member of the undivided Body of Christ ? 4. If our Baptism in England doth incorporate into their Church ( which you suppose is no Church , being a false Church ) , doth not Baptism into your Church incorporate Persons into yours ? And what then , if your Schism prove a Sin ? What if Rebaptizing prove a Sin ? What if the Covenant descri●ed by your Client , ( to obey none but Christ , in matters belonging to Worship ) prove a Sin ? are they all guilty of all these , and such others ? Obj. II. All that are liable to a Church Excommunication when they have offended , are declared Members of the Church . But all Communicants and Native Inhabitants are so . Therefore the Law hath excepted none . — How comes it to pass , that the Church hath power of excommunicating any Person , but by vertue of Incorporation , which she hath by the same Law ? He that is not in the Church , how comes he to be cast out ? — Is he not by Communion in the Sacrament of baptism made a Member ? Ans . 1. Doth their esteeming you a Member , prove that you are so ? 2. You know that they excommunicate Papists , and Atheists , who deride them for it and say , It 's a strange Church that will cast us out , because they cannot compel us to come in . 3. If this be a good ▪ argument , that all are of their Church that are excommunicate , then you are either safe from Excommunication ; or of their Church , whether you will or not : If to make good your argument , you will aver that no Separatist , Independent , Presbyterian , Anabaptist , or Quaker , was ever ▪ excommunicate , or imprisoned as such , you will change the Current of Intelligence , and comfort many that can believe you , and teach them how to escape a Prison for the time to come . But if not , you make your self and all these parties , incorporate Members of the Church of England , as well as me . 4. Do you think a Lay Civilian by Excommunicating , can prove or make a man a member of any Church against his will ? Then mens Argument against Parish Churches , for want of consent , is void . They may be made such against their wills . 5. But tho few men d●sl●ke the Lay-Excommunicators and Absolvers more than I do ( nor grudge more at the Bishops and Deans who use them , and let them put their names to the Excommunications ; especially of the poor Church-Wardens for not swearing , &c. ) yet let us not render them causelesly ridiculou● . I imagine that they excommunicate not known Papists , Anabaptists , and such like , out of their Church ( who they know were never in it ) but out of the Universal Church : If this be not their sense , let them give it you themselves , for I am not bound to be their Interpreter . And yet to moderate our Censures of them , I 'le tell you a wonder : Within this hour I received a Letter of credible Intelligence , of a Chancellor who hearing of a Conventicle not presented by the Church-Wardens , and being told that they met to repeat the publick Sermon , said , God forbid that they should be hindered . Obj. III. Page 8. A Church in a sense is a Christian Kingdom , that is , a Royal Nation under Christ their King. But there is no such Gospel-Church in your sense ; for there was neither Christian Kingdom nor King in the Ap●stl●s days . Ans . The Institution may be in the Gospel before the existence : Christian Kings and Kingdoms are neither unlawful , nor needless , because there were none then . The Prophets not only foretel that Nations shall come in to Christ and serve him , but that all Nations that do it not , shall perish . And Christs Commission to his Apostles was , To go and Disciple all Nations ( as much as in them lay ) baptizing them . Nations as such , were , first to be discipled , and then baptized , ( Infants are part of Nations ) . And Matth. 23. Christ would have gathered Jerusalems Children ( all the Jewish Nation ) into his Church , as a Hen gathereth her Chickens under her Wings . And Rom. 11. Only their own unbelief broke them off from being a National Church , ( including Infants ) . And it is part of the Saints triumph , that the Kingdoms of the World are become the Kingdoms of the Lord , and of his Christ . If you will read Mr. Beverlys Book , called The whole duty of Nations , it will give you full proof of this . Where hath the Gospel extensively much prospered where Princes and Rulers were not Christians ? The Turks give liberty of Religion . And yet the sometime famous Greek Churches , ( Corinth , Philippi , Coloss , Ephesus , Laodicea , Philadelphia , and more than all the West , are Apostatized , or withered to a few ignorant vicious scandalous Christians . Obj. IV. 8. If such a confederation in lawful Circumstantials , as well as Integrals , will make a Church , I know not why we may not have a Catholick Visible Church organized , if this be a due acception of a Church . Ans . This is as much as to say , If the name Church may be used equivocally ( as all words must ) of several sorts , then all those sorts may be the same . I deny it . If you dislike the use of the name , you have your liberty as a Grammarian to forbear it . But sure the Name and the Thing are not all one , nor the Controversies about them . 2. But we have a Catholick Visible Church Organized , as I have oft proved against the Papists , viz. under one , Christ the Head , and his Ministers as his subordinate Officers . Obj. V. Page 3. If you touch a mans finger , you touch the man : we have communion with an integrum perpartes ; and with a Genus by the Species ; and with both by individuals : Nay as every part of the Scripture , one verse or sentence of it makes up sence ; so every part of the Liturgy as in form and manner therein contrived , is Liturgy ; and worship thereafter is according to the Liturgy , tho it be but part of the w●rship . Page 20. As for the falseness in Integrals , it gives the denomination to the whole ; for an Integral part is an essential part of the whole . Much more there is to the same purpose , making him guilty of all that useth a part . Ans . 1. You have the freedom of using words at your pleasure , but not imposing them on mankind ; when necessity hath taught the World to distinguish essential and integral parts , you have no authority to confound their Language , by the quibble of calling Integrals essential causes of the whole : A totum per aggregationem ▪ as a heap of Sand , or a field of Grass , is not constituted of a proper essentiating form , and so homogeneous matter aggregate is all the being it hath . And if you make contiguity an essential cause , or how else you will , you have liberty of speech : But we will not be cheated by it to believe that it causeth any more than Totality or Integrality , and the absence of it is a privation of no more . And all mens Graces , Obedience , and Worship , are defective in point of Integrality and degree , and I hope you will not say that they need no favour , or pardon , or amendment . 2. All human actions have their faults : must we therefore do nothing , or converse with no men ? England is one Kingdom ; If there be one or many faults in its Laws or officers , may we therefore obey none that are faultless ? The Laws are the Rule of National Justice ; may a Judg , Justice , Officer or subject use none of them , because some are faulty ? Doth that make him guilty of all ? Bonum est ex causis integris : The fault of a part may indeed denominate the whole faulty so far . But the whole Law or Liturgy may be called faulty for a part , and yet he that useth either , not be guilty of any of the bad part , for using the good . The Law and Liturgy are one thing , and the use is another : Its faults are no further his , than he owneth them ; your Bread or Meat may be called bad , if part only be bad , and yet if you eat none but the good part , it will not hurt you . 2. But if it must be otherwise , no man may hear you , or joyn with your Churches : And do you think ( as aforesaid ) that Mr. Faldo , and all his Church at Barnet , lived not in a sinful communion very many years , that omitted at least an integral part of publick worship , the singing of Gods praise ? Christ with his Disciples sung a Hymn after the Sacrament . The Jews Church made it the chief part of their Worship . James prescribeth it us in all our Holy Mirth , such as the Lords Day is appointed for , 1 Cor. 14.26 . Every one had a Psalm , and with them no one had a Psalm , tho his Judgment was for it ; the question was , Whether he should forsake them for refusing it : I thought not , because it was better that they had something that was good , than nothing . But your argument would not only unchurch them , but make all sinners that communicated with them : for omissions of great duties are faults , and greater faults than tolerable failings in performance : He that prayeth not at all , doth worse than he that prayeth by a Book ; and he that preacheth or teacheth not at all , doth worse than he that readeth a Sermon ; so that their total stated omission and opposition to singing , by your false rule , denominated them no worshippers of God , if the whole must be denominated from a part . How many private Meetings in London , never sing a Psalm for fear of being discovered ? Yea , how many seldom read a Chapter , but only preach and pray , and sometime administer the Sacrament ? Must we needs say therefore that they omit all Worship ? VI. On such occasions I argued , That if we must not communicate with any Parish Church because of the faults of the Liturgy , it will follow , that we must not communicate with any Church on Earth that hath as great faults ; and that by this we must renounce Communion with all Christs Body on Earth : All the Armenians , Nestorians , Eutychians , Copties , Abassines , Georgians , Greeks , Russians , Papists , yea Lutherans , have a more faulty Liturgie , or manner of worship , than the English . Yea the Churches called Calvinists have their Liturgies and faults : And I instanced in Switzerland , because as God hath of late most preserved their peace , so they are taken to be the honestest sort of Protestants , that in poverty serve God with soundest doctrine , and least scandal of Life , but yet have no proper discipline but the Magistrates ? Is it a sin to have confederacy or Communion with their Churches ? To this he plainly saith Page 11. It is : That is , all that confederate with them , as Churches , are guilty of their error , called Erastian : For subjection t● such discipline is the condition of their Communion . Ans . Subjection is an equivocal word : If it were by profession or subscription of consent it were indeed to be guilty of that error ( tho not by a fau●t of the Part denominating the whole , to make their worship unlawful , or their Churches none ) but if by subjection you mean but joyning in their Churches as Christian and Protestant for doctrine and worship , notwithstanding the defect which they cannot help , yea which they disclaim , bare accusation will not prove this a sin ; but by this we see how much of Christs Church you are for separating from . 2. For my part I have oft published , That it is not the least part of my charge against Popery , that they unchurch almost all the Christian World save themselves : But yet they are about a 4th or 3d part of professed Christians themselves ; and divers of them do not unchurch the Greeks ; But to unchurch or forbid Communion with all that are as faulty , as the Helvetians and all other Protestant Churches that have Liturgies or partial faults , is that which I dare not be guilty of : I think that to say , That a thousand parts to one of Christs Church , are none of his Churches , is next to deposing him from his Kingdom : Much like as it would be to say , no part of London is the Kings but Amen Corner , nor any part of England but Barnet or Brentford . 3. And is it not one of our just accusations of the Papists , That they say all the Protestant Churches are no true Churches , and the Ministers no true Pastors ; and that Communion with them is unlawful ? and shall we now justifie them and say as they ( tho not on the same Reason , but for a far smaller difference ) ? Is this our running from Popery ? 4. Yea , is it not the great thing that we accuse the superconformists for ? That they make us to be no true Ministers or Churches ? and are we indeed of the same mind ? One side saith , We are no true Ministers for want of Bps. Ordination , &c. Another side saith , You are no true Ministers for having Communion with the Bishops and Churches , &c. VII . I mentioned the Judgment and Practise of the old Nonconformists and Presbyterians , not as a rule , but as a comparative example . To this he saith , p. 11. You and they might as well own the Church of England in the form and constitution as it is established as the Parish churches to be particular Gospel churches , &c. — P. 12. To say you join with a quatenus , and own not the very constitution and standing of the church , with which you join in the sense the church asserts it , is the greatest equivocation in practice that is : The old Nonconformists nor you are to be no presidents to us in this case — So far as the old Nonconformists , and the old reforming conformists went forward with Reformation to bring the church out of the wilderness , we honour them ; but when they turn back again , and entice the people so to do , we are afraid to tempt God in that manner — P. 14. Those ●ld Nonconformists that did so , are no presidents to 〈◊〉 ; If they halted and were lame , must we be so ? such communicants are not acceptable to any Church , and I know what Church would never admit them , were it not to punish and expose them and their profession , as ridiculous and inconsistent with its self : And as for FRENCH and DUTCH , what are they to us , &c. — P. 16 ▪ He calls Mr. Fenns joining in the Liturgy with exception of some part [ The sul●en practice of a half-paced doting Nonc●nformist . Ans . First to the Cause , and secondly to the Persons . 1. To call any practice , Equivocation , or by any ill name ▪ is no proof that it is so ; nor is here a word of true proof given us : I ask the Considerate ; Is it in the power of a Law-maker , to make all Worship and Duty to God unlawful by commanding to do it for an unlawful end , or upon false principles ? What if a Law said , All people shall worship God , not because the Scripture commandeth it , but because the State commands it ? Would this make it unlawful to worship God ? I would disown the Principle , and go on . What if the Law should say , The Pastoral Office is not of Divine Right , but humane , must the office therefore be renounced ? And why can such a Law any more bind me to judg of Church-constitutions by the Lawmakers words , rather than by Gods Word ? Suppose that the Anabaptists say , That rebaptizing is the true way of Church-gathering : Is it a sin to communicate with them , if they will receive me when I profess the contrary . I am against the Covenant which you defend , as making an Independent Church : Is it therefore a sin to communicate with them , because it is not as constituted by that Covenant ? What do Parties more differ in of late , than Forms , Orders , Modes and Circumstances of Church Government ; and if they be of many contrary minds , were it twenty , there can be but one of them in the right : And is it unlawful to join with all the rest ? Must we needs be sure which of these is in the right ? Almost all the Churches that I hear of in the world , have their agreed professions published ; the Protestants are gathered in the Corpus confessionum ; the English Church Principles and Orders are expressed in the Book of Canons , the Liturgy , Ordination , the 39 Articles , the Homilies , the Apology , &c. Must every one stay from their Churches , till he hath read and understood all these Books , and be sure that there is no fault or error in them ? What if it be poor men or women that cannot buy all these books ? and what if they cannot read ? whom shall they get to read them all ? and how shall they have time to study them , or capacity to understand them , when we can hardly get them to learn a Catechism and anderstand it ? You will say , That is their crime that make all these Confessions and Books : They will answer , but that 's none of our fault : We made them not , and yet must we not communicate with any Church that maketh such ? The old Separatists , called Brownists , published their confession , and therein owned many Parish Churches in England , and Communion with them : I recited their words in my Reasons , &c. But you are gone beyond them : The New ▪ England churches printed their confession , and all there agreed not to it : The English Independents published their Principles and Confessions : And the Presbyterians and they agreed in the Westminster Synods confession , catechism and Directory : Is every poor Man and Woman bound to stay from all their churches , ( when for 14 years they had no other ) till they understand all these , and know that they are faultless ? Or if there be any fault in any one of all these books , is every one guilty of them that cometh to the churches ? The Anabaptists published their confession : The Dutch have theirs : Many churches agreed with them in the Synod of Dort. The French have theirs ; the Saxons , the Helvetians , Geneva , the Bohemians , the Protestants in general had the Augustane , and many more have theirs . Reader , See with whom these Writers will hold communion , who make it unlawful to join with any church that have any fault in their constitutions , or agreed Doctrines or Orders . Let us rise upward , till we come to the Apostles days : None of all these churches named , dare profess all their agreements and confession to be without fault , that ever I heard of , except the English , who bind Ministers to assent and consent to all things commanded and prescribed in three Books and excommunicate those that say their Books or Ceremonies and Government hath any thing contrary to the Word of God ; but no Lay-man is bound to believe them ; Wickliffe , and John H●s , the Waldenses , and the Bohemians Confessions , are not faultless : Of the Papist , and the S●cinians , we will make no question ; the forenamed churches of Greeks , Russians , Armenians , Abassines , Nestorians , Jacobites , &c. are , alas , past question faulty : the general councils upward from that of Trent , Basil , Constance , &c. to the six first , yea , the four first , which some equal to the four Gospels , are far from ▪ being faultless in the Judgment of these Objectors , and of my self : the Arrian and other heretical councils are past question ; even that of Nice , the first and best , I suppose he and I think did not well in setling church-power as they did , and forbidding all kneeling on the Lords days , in Adoration , and other the like : The Donatists and the Novatians , called the Puritans of those times , had faulty agreements ; were it but for Bps. and Arch-Bps . ●e will think them so : this Writer can name no one church on the face of the Earth Orthodox or heretical ( tho Aerius called Presbyters equal with Bps. ) that was not for Bishops over Presbyters from the year 100 after Christ , t●ll the Reformation , that ever I could read of : Yea , consider whether they were not in the Apostles days , when Jerome , who most depresseth this degree , saith , That there were such at Alexandria chosen by the Presbyters from the days of Mark : and Mark died long before John the Apostle : But Episcopacy is not all : Not only Epiphanius but all Church History that speaketh of such matters , agreeth , that ( besides the croud of latter Ceremonies ) there were certain ceremonies called the customes of the Universal Church , which all the known Churches agreed in , ( even those that differ'd about Easter-day , and other such ) that is , 1. Cloathing the Baptized in white Garments . 2. Giving them milk and hony to tast . 3. Anointing them with Oyl . 4. Not kneeling in adoration on any Lords day , or any other day between Easter and Whitsunday . There is no notice when these began , so ancient were they , nor of any one Church or Christian that refused them ; but they were commonly called the Traditions Apostolical , or customes of the Universal Church . Now I agree with this Author , that these things were indeed a deviation from the Apostles practice , and ought not to have been thus used : But the question is , whether every Christian was guilty of the fault that had communion with any of these churches ? and whether had he then lived , he should have separated from all the Churches on earth ? By this you see , that this opinion must needs make men seekers , who say , that the church was in the wilderness , and lost all true Ministry , ( and , say they , particular churches , and Scripture ) after the first ( or at most the second ) century : and so that for fourteen hundred years Christ had no visible Kingdom on earth : And consequently , that we have no wiser answer to the Papist [ where was your church before Luther ] than to say that it was Invisible ; that is , that we cannot prove that there was any such thing on Earth ; and consequently , that we cannot prove that Christ had any Kingdom on earth , and was its King ; that is , whether there was any Christ in actual church-administration ? And doth separating from the whole visible church-communion agree with the prophecies and precepts of union ? Was this church like a grain of Mustard seed in its growth ? Was all the wonderful works of redemption wrought for no visible society after one or two hundred years , in which a few persecuted ones were visible ? Is not this the next step ( and a temptation ) to utter infidelity ? If Christ have now no visible church on earth , but the people called Brownists or Separatists , doth it answer the Scripture description of him and his church ? And is it not exposing christianity to the scorn of infidels , so to say ? Would not almost all rather turn Papists , than believe this ? And be rather of their church , than of none . 2. But let us next speak of the persons . I may speak my thoughts without imposing on you . I think that the Major vote is no rule to the Minor , nor always is in the right . If a hundred men that understand not Greek or Hebrew , Translate a Text one way , and a good Linguist another way , I will more suspect their judgment than his . And so in the like case . But if I hear a few odd persons condemn the judgment of the generality that are far better acquainted with matters of the same nature , [ as if School-boys that are but in their Accidence , should oppose all the upper Forms in expounding Horace , or Hesiod , or Homer ] , which , think you , should I most suspect ? — I say again to you , compare the writings of Bucer , Peter Martyr , Calvin , Beza , Melancthon , Chami●r , Blondel , Dailee , and a bundance such ; and also Greenhams , Perkins , Dr. J●●n R●ignolds , Cartwrights ▪ Dods , Hildershams , Hieroms Amesius's , Payne● , R●l●e●ks , and many such , yea with such conformists as Jewels , Bp. Downames , John Downames , Davenants , Bp. Halls , Arch-Bp . Ushers , Bp. Rob. Abbots , Dr Field● , Dr. Challoners , Dr. Airys , &c. I say , compare these with the Theological writings , of Mr. Penry , Mr. Can , and all other called separat●sts or Brownists in their times , and tell me whether these later did manifest more Holy Wisdom in Heavenly things , more skill in all other points of Divinity , than the former : If their writings ( giving Mr. Ainsworth his due honour in Hebrew and Piety ) were as far below the other , as the lower forms of School-boys are beneath the highest , which should we most suspect to have had the greater or the lesser light , specially when the lower condemn and cut off themselves from communion with all Christs known Churches on earth for thirteen hundread years . When Mr. Smith ( and lately a very good man here ) thought none fit to Baptize him again , but Baptized himself ; was not that singularity a just cause of suspicion ? Yet I make not the old Nonconformists your rule . VIII . I argued also , from the common frailties of us all , that it will be unlawful to communicate with any Church on earth , even with those of the objectors mind , if we are guilty of the sins in Doctrine , worship and discipline , of all Churches that we communicate with . I will aggravate none , nor render that odious which God accepteth : My work is to confute those that do so . But I say , that 1. we have all many errors ; And men use to put their errors into their prayers and preaching 2. Do not men use to deliberate more , and study what to write , than what to preach ? And have men reason to be confident that our preaching will be more sounder than our writing ? This Author exclaims against me , as Popish , Arminian , for Justification by works , for merit , &c. May it not be expected that I preach as bad as I write ? And is it not then a sin to be my hearer ? Can I think that he will not preach as ill as he writeth in this book ? And are all sinners therefore for hearing him ? I promise him that if I know of any Parish Minister that will usually preach with as much error , reflexion and gall as he here writeth , I will be none of that mans hearers , or usual Communicants . But to this he saith , P. 19. We distinguish between the rule of worship , and the administration and performance : — 1. It is not sins of ordinary infirmity . 2. Nor sins not foreknown , so as to prevent joining with them , but them that worship God by a false rule , &c. Ans . 1. This is the great strength of all his Book , That we sin by a false rule , but they sin only against a true rule ; but I think nothing is sin indeed , but that which is against a true rule , even Gods word ; making and using a false rule , is therefore sin , because it is against the true rule . Most hypocrites are supposed to own a true rule while they are false to it , and sin against it . To sin against knowledge , and an acknowledged rule , is an aggravation of the sin , and such shall be beaten with many stripes : Paul opens it to the Jews , Rom. 2. at large , therefore this will not excuse our communion with such . 2. This Reason crosseth the business of the opponent ; for whereas the greatest reason against Communion with Parish Churches is the badness of the Communicants , and Ministers lives ; these are not the obeying of the Law or Canons , but disobeying them : The Law , called the Rule , bids no man swear rashly , lye , be drunk , unclean , slander , rail , &c. Nay it commandeth the Minister to deny the Sacrament to such : Ignorance , unbelief , hypocrisie , are not commanded , but forbidden by that Rule : Ministers break the rule , i● they preach error , or heresie , or against Love and Peace , and promote not Godliness , and mens salvation , with all holy diligence , by Doctrine and Life ; so that no sins against this is cause of separation , if it be only using a false rule that is , just cause . 3. But what is the false Rule ? The word Rule maketh all this excuse and accusation of his a meer equivocation : In general , a rule is any thing to which we purposely conform our actions , that they may be right : Of this there are divers sorts . 1. The Primary Rule is the absolute Law of God , to which all mens actions should be conformed . 2. Subord●nate humane Rules : These are of divers sorts . 1. The obliging commands of Authority . 1. Of Magistrates . 2. Pastors . 3. Parents and Masters of Families . 4. School-Masters and Tutors of Youth , &c. 2. Contracts or Agreements of men for concord . 1. Gods Law is never a false rule , but an erring Expositor may make the words the matter of a false rule by putting on them a false sense . 2. Just subordinate rules are not false , justly used . 1. Magistrates rule either by common Laws , or temporary and particular Mandates , both being obligatory to duty , and indeed but several sorts of Laws , while they use but that authority which God gave them . Laws or Mandates are just rules . 2. Pastors can make duty by ruling-authority for none but the Flocks committed to them : They may command what God authorizeth them to command ; whether it be by word or writing , is all one : And whether you will call it a Law or not , the name altereth not the case : Tho indeed in the general notion , all is true law , which authoritatively by command maketh a subjects duty . It s a true rule when the Ruler goeth not beyond his authority ▪ Heb. 13.7 , 17 , 24. 1 Thes . 5.12 , 17 , &c. 3. The same must be said of Parents , Masters , Tutors , &c. 4. Agreements or contracts are rules made for Concord by the self-governing power that all men have over themselves : and they are just rules when justly used . 5. Besides all these , most make a mans own reason , judgment or conscience , the immediate subordinate rule of his actions . Indeed it is more fitly called the discerner of his rule and duty , as the eye is to the body : For it maketh not duty , but discerneth it made : But if any will call the Understanding a Rule to the Will , instead of a Guide , we may bear with the impropriety . All this is clear truth . Now the question is , how any of these subordinate rules are just or false ? 1. Two things God hath not only allowed , but commanded them all to do about Religion . 1. To command subjects as Gods officers to obey Gods Laws , and in just cases to punish the breakers of them , in matters within their jurisdiction . And to do this by Laws , Mandates , Judgment and Execution . 2. To make subordinate Mandates or Laws for determining such Circumstances as God hath commanded them to determine , by the General Law of Governing or Ruling , and of doing all to unity concord , edification , peace , order , and decency . These things Christian-Magistrates may do Nationally . Pastors to their Flocks , Masters to their Families and Scholars ; and equals ( Pastors and People ) may make fit agreements where they are free : And these rules may be called false or true , in several degrees . 1. It 's gross falsood and usurpation , to set up an office forbidden of God , and false in its very nature . 2. It 's next in degree false , for men of an office of Gods institution , to command things utterly out of their calling and jurisdiction , in which they have no power from God mediately or immediately . Conscience binds none to formal obedience ( propter authoritatem imperantis ) to either of these ; tho material obedience , and non-resistance , may be duties . The lower degree , is when the office is of God , and the matter is in their power , and not only belonging ad alienum forum ; But they mis-determine it in the manner , not usurping anothers office , but doing their own amiss : Tho herein conscience is not bound to obedience ; gratia materiae sub ratione indebiti modi ; yet if the matter be not forbidden of God , obedience may be a duty herein , sub ratione medii , necessary to several ends ; that is , to concord , to honour the governor , to avoid off●nce , and to avoid greater hurt to the Church , others , or our selves . But if the thing commanded be forbidden of God , no man must do it . But divers things commanded unlawfully in the manner , may become duties by that command , because they be made thereby needful means of Unity , Peace , Honour to Rulers , &c. as aforesaid , which else would have been sin ( as to meet at an inconvenient time or place , to use a Translation , metre , &c. less fit . ) Now all these being subordinate rules , they bind only subordinately by virtue of Gods supreme rule , who made them rulers ( and he is no ruler that can give no rule ) ; even as corporation By Laws bind only by vertue of the Soveraigns higher Law. And tho this Author would be the Ruler of Language so far , as to say that all sinful Worship is not false Worship , they that use words , as greater Masters have long stated the sence , do know , that the falseness is the disconformity to Gods supream Rule , and that may be in all the degrees forementioned : And Rules or Worship are both false so far as they are disconform to the Law of God. And now wherein is our Rule , false and theirs true ? 1. We own no Rule of direct immediate obedience to God , nor of any universal or unchangeable duty to God , but what his Law ( of Nature , or supernatural ) doth make us . We hold that no man hath power to alter Gods word , to command any thing against it , nor any thing which God hath appropriated to himself , as to make new conditions of salvation , new Sacraments , new Laws , as Gods , or new duties for themselves , necessary to Salvation ; no , nor any thing but what Gods own General Law doth command or allow them to determine , being left by him undetermined , to their Power and Rule . We hold that if any Ruler go contrary to , and beyond those Rules of God , it is their sin , and not ours , and we openly disown it : And so do our Rulers in general themselves most expresly in the Books of Articles , Ordination , Homilies , Apology , &c. Binding all Ministers to the Scripture for the Rule of their Preaching and Living , only infallible , sufficient in all things necessary to Salvation ; and that if Councils , or any men err or disagree with Scripture , they are not to be followed . We openly renounce all false Rules , and Canons ; but if for such sin against their own profession of Scripture-sufficiency , we must renounce Communion with all that are guilty , we scarce know the Church on Earth which we must not renounce . And the opponents in Particular . 2. For let us try now whether you have no Rule which you call False , as well as false or sinful practice . But I will first take in his fuller explication , left I mistake him . IX . Page 37. I roundly assert against you , That tho every Church of Christ hath the liberty aad priviledge to act prudentially , or make prudential determinations concerning the present use of indifferent things pro hic & nunc , yet to make any standing or binding determination and Laws for themselves or other , is altogether unlawful , as highly derogatory to the Kingly office of Christ , and robbing themselves or others of their granted priviledge , and so a forfeiture of their Charter : And so all your by-standing laws and subordinate Laws for worship which you talk of , are unwarrantable additions to the word of God. Ans . 1. This indeed is round assreting ; but your word is no proof , and here is no better . Contraily , 1. Those whom Christ maketh Rulers of his Church , and commandeth to do all things , not particularly determined by him , as shall conduce to peace , concord , order , decency , and edification , may Rule accordingly by such determinations . But some such there are whom Christ maketh Rulers of his Church &c. ergo , &c. Maj. Prob. Matth. 24. Who then is a faithful and wise Servant , whom the Lord hath made ruler over his houshold to give them meat in due season , &c. 1 Thes . 5.12 . Know them who are among you , and are over you in the Lord , &c. 1 Cor. 4.12 . Let a man so account of us , as of the Ministers of Christ , and Stewards of the mysteries of God , &c. Heb. 13.7 , 17.24 . Remember them who have the Rule over you , &c. Obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account , &c. Salute all that have the rule over you , &c. 1 Tim. 5.17 . The Elders that rule well are worthy of double honour : 1 Cor. 14.26 . Let all things be done to edifying . 4. Let all things be done decently and in order . 33. God is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the Saints . By all this , it is evident that Church Rulers there must be ; and such successors of the Apostles in the ordinary parts of their office as Christ will be with to the end of the World , Matth. 28.20 . And also in what their Rule consisteth . Now to the question of Imposing : ( I premise , that tho this usurper of a Magistry in Language will have Imposing taken still in an ill sense ; I leave that to him , it is enough for me to tell him that I take it according to the prime signification [ to put a thing on others ] without respect to well or ill doing it . ) 1. I know not whether by every Church , he intend a meer voting body of People and Pastors by consent , or the Pastors alone as the Rulers of a voluntary People . 2. I know not whether he take [ prudential determinations ] as distinct from Governing Obligations , or not . 3. I know not whether by [ present use ] he mean it only for one present meeting , or for more , and for how many and how long : And [ by standing ] how long he meaneth . I grant to him that no man may make universal or unchangeable Laws , but temporal and mutable , and only for his own subjects . But I maintain , 1. That Pastors may by word or writing make binding commands or determinations to their Flocks of the foresaid modes and circumstances of Religion and Worship . For 1. They are such as are necessary in genere , and the determination to this or that sort disjunctively necessary : Somebody must determine them ( and that for more than the present meeting , even statedly ) : And it belongs to the Rulers office to do it : None else is fit or hath any other power , than by contract . I have oft enough instanced in particulars . It is not meet that every meeting the People be put to Vote where to meet next : And there is no certainty that they will agree ; but some be for one place , and some for another : An ordinary capacious place is necessary : It is the Rulers office to appoint it . It 's no sin against Christ for him to require them to come to the same place , from year to year , while it is fit . 2. The same I say for a commanding determination of the Lecture-days , or times of meeting , which the Pastor may prescribe statedly by his office , without the Peoples votes . Or if all such things were imposed by a Major Vote on the Minor , their Vote would be a Governing Rule to the Minor part . 3. While Praying with the Hatt on , is by the custom of the country a sign of unreverence , the Pastors ( or Elders that Rule well ) may command the Flocks by their authority , ordinarily , and not at the present only , to be uncovered at Prayer and Sacrament in the assembly , without wronging Christs Power , unless obeying it be wronging it . The same I say of usual kneeling at Prayer . 5. If the Congregation be called to confess their Faith , or renew their Covenant with God , the Rulers may command all that consent , to signifie it by such a sign , as standing , or lifting up the hand , or subscribing , &c. And they are bound to obey them . 6. I have oft enough instanced in Translations , Metres , Tunes , Utensils , Ornaments , and many such like . Obj. The Pastors make no Laws . Ans . Dally not with names : Any thing is a Law which ruling authority maketh duty : If Writing it , maketh a Law , they may write it : But a verbal-Mandate is one species of a Law : And imposeth and determineth , and obligeth to obedience ; and it is sin to disobey , because God commandeth them to obey , Heb. 13.17 . And even by the 5th Commandment . It doth as truly limit , and oblige when Pastors command , as when Magistrates do it , tho they force not by the Sword. Obj. But these are but natural circumstances , and belong no more to worship , than to any other things . Ans . It 's a sad thought to me to think how many seem satisfied with such an answer as this . All substances have their accidents , quality , time , place , &c. But yet the accident of one substance is not the accident of another ; The quantity and quality of a man is not the quantity and quality of a Toad , &c. When these accidents are adjoyned to worship , they be not accidents of other things . Is Speaking no part nor accident of worship , because speaking is used in common things ? Kneeling is used in other cases : But kneeling in prayer to express reverence , is not common to other things . Putting off the hat sheweth Reverence to a Prince : But to be uncovered at Prayer or Sacrament is the Accident at least of that Worship , and not of other things : Metre and Tunes belong to Ballads : But the Metre and Tune of Psalms doth not , but is appropriate to those Psalms . Time and Place belong to all natural actions : But the Time and Place separated to Gods Worship is an accident only of that . It is not the natural specification of an act or circumstance , or the generical nature that we speak of ; but the individual accident or circumstance as appropriate to a religious work . Is love to God no worship , because love is a natural act ? Is praying no act of Religion , because we may pray to men ? Is eating and drinking no part of the Sacrament , because we use them as natural acts for our daily sustenance ? Is washing no part of Baptism , because we wash at other times : Thinking is a natural act , but holy thinking is more : Were Davids sorts of Musick no part or accident of Worship , because Musick is natural or artificial ? It magnifieth these acts to be applied to worship , and it is a commendation of Worship-Ordinances that they are suited to nature , and advance and sanctifie it . Now at last I come closer to my question : Have you no Church Rulers among you ? No Elders that rule well ? Is it unlawful to communicate with you , if those Elders by Mandates which are obligatory to the flock do prescribe Days , and Hours , Temples , or publick places for ordinary Worship , and if they command you to use the new Translation rather than the Geneva , publickly , or prescribe the same Metre and Tunes , rather than your Congregation shall sing , some one Psalm , and some another : Or if they command them to be uncovered at Sacrament and Prayer , or to kneel at prayer ? &c. If you take this power from the Pastors , and will separate from them for such obliging Laws or Mandates , you do that very thing which you fiercely talk against ; you destroy or resist Christs Kingly Government by his Officers Oh what is Man ! What are the best of Men ! What doth the Church and World suffer by them ! The same men that cry up Christs Kingdom , call it rebellion against him to obey his Officers : As if we must depose or disobey the King , unless we disobey all his Judges , Justices and Officers . All the obligatory decisions that the Apostles made about their Love Feasts , anointing the sick , the Kiss of Love , long Hair , covering or uncovering , order of prophecying , and of collections , &c. were not standing Laws to us ; nor done by uncommunicable power ; but were temporary Laws , and local , and such as their Successors , when fit , may make . If you have no such Rulers in your Churches , you should queston whether your Churches have the true order of Pastors , as well as you question the Parish Ministers : Do they not want ruling power , as well as theirs ; specially if you deny the very power , and they be but hindred in the exercise . Obj. But some may be forced to say , Our Pastors do nothing , but by the peoples consent . Ans . They are their Pastors by consent , and rule them as voluntary , and not by force : But their rule and precepts are never less obligatory on Conscience by vertue of Gods command to obey them : Must they prescribe none of the things forementioned , till all have voted it , or consented ? They must command them to consent , and they sin if they disobey , tho they can force none to obey . Object . But some may be driven to say , We allow such prescribing power to Pastors , but not to Magistrates . Ans . 1. What Power the Kings of Judah used in Worship , David , Solomon , Asa , Jehosaphet , Hezekiah , Josiah , I need not tell . 2. Christ came not to put down Kings , but to sanctifie their office : All power is given him : By him Kings reign : The Kingdoms of the world are his by right : Rulers are his Ministers for our good : They must punish evil doers , and promote well doing : He commands us to honour and obey them ; They are keepers of both Tables : They may drive Ministers to their duty , and punish them for mal-administration : Tho they may usurp nothing proper to the pastoral office , nor forbid them any such thing , yet such circumstances as belong to the nation , or to many Churches , and not to this or that in peculiar , the Magistrates may determine : It is of great use , that all the approved Churches in a Nation , signifie their consent in the same Confession of Faith ▪ the same anniversary days of Humiliation and Thanksgiving ( as is done about the Powder Plot ) and the same Translation of the Scripture , if not also the same Psalm Books ; God strictly commandeth Concord , and to serve him with one mind and mouth , and to avoid confusion , and division , and discord : What reason can any man give why Christs Officers appointed to rule by the sword , may not thus discharge their trust ? Shall we sin if the Law impose a Translation , Psalm Book , or reverent gesture , unless we separate ? Is commanded obedience become a sin ? And yet not if a Pastor or a ruling Majority of people injoin it , or unless we leave all to confusion ? X. Here therefore I utterly renounce the opinion that shall hold that such things being lawful when uncommanded , become unlawful when commanded by such as in Ministry , Magistracy , or Families , or Schools , are Rulers : Yea , if the Ruler misdo his work , the sin is his ; I must not separate from every Kingdom , Church , or Family that is ill governed : Nor am I discharged from obedience in lawful things by the addition of some unlawful commands that destroy not acceptable Worship , and turn not our food to Poyson : I tell those Ministers that publickly charge this on Nonconformists , that they must not charge any Doctrine of Seekers or Anabaptists , or such separatists , to be the Nonconformists Doctrine : I know not one meer Nonconformist of that mind : What we of this Age thought of Ep●scopacy , Liturgy , and Magistracy , all that would come in and own that cause openly with us , have told the world in our published Proposals of 1660 and 1661 : To which we refer them that would know their minds . XI . But when I oft alledged the example of Christ and the Apostles , this Objector and Answerer saith , p. 19. We make not Christ and his Apostles Hypocrites ; for we have proved , that Christ never joined with false worship , so much as with his presence at the place of it , unless with this intent , to bear witn●ss against it ; nor did he ever advise his disciples so to d● : As for Moses Chair , it was then Christs own Institution , and he had th●n no other Church or Institution on earth . Ans . It was cautelously done to pass by the instances of the Apostles that neither separated , nor commanded one man to separate from all the faulty Churches , Rev. 2.3 . Notwithstanding the Woman Jezab●●s Doctrine , and that of the Nicolaitans , which God hated , and the evil practices ; nor from the Church of Corinth , where were carnal Schisms , Defraudings , Lawsuits before Heathens , incest unlamented , Sacrament disorders , even to excess of drink , disorder in Church Worship , &c. Nor from any other faulty Churches . Meth●n●s th●y that are so strict against any additions in Modes of Worship , should not so much add or alter Scripture , or accuse it of de●●ctiveness , as to suppose the Apostles to have culpably communicated with such Churches , as Co●inth , Coloss , Ephesus , Sardis , Laodicea , Smy●na , &c. yea and with the Jews , who by falsifying the Rules , called it unlawful to eat with the Gentiles , or to eat what Moses Law fo●bad , and not to keep their days : Pauls accomplishing of his Vow in the T●mple , and becoming a Jew to the Jews , was fully contrary to the opponents D●ctrine . And as to Christs practice ; we said before you , that he conformed not to any evil , nor should you But did he not send the Lepers to a false ill-called corrupt sort of Priests , to do by , and with them , what the Law required ? Did he not ord●narily joyn in the Synagogues in their worsh●p ? Could he have leave constantly to teach there , if he had there used to cry down their ordinary worship ? Had the Ceremonious Pharisees no ill forms nor ceremonies in their Worship ? Again , I say , Their long Prayers which were the Cloak of their oppression , were either ●xt●mporate , or forms of Liturgy . If extemporate , then the worst of Hypocrites may constantly use long extemporate Prayers , and it had been no injury to the Spirit in them , to have perswaded them to use Christs form instead of them . If they were Liturgies ▪ then Christ did not separate from such ; no nor reprove them at all , when he reproveth the hypocritical abuse of them : Yea , seemeth to commend them , while he nameth them , as a Cloak to cover evil , which nothing is fit for , that is not good . Obj. He had no oth●r Church ? Ans 1. Then most in England m●y go to the Parish Churches , where they have no other Church to go to . 2. But Christ had twelve Apostles , and 70 , or 72 other Teachers , and many more Disciples ; Were these no Church , nor matter for a Church ? XII . Obj. Page 4. God hath not left it in our power to communicate with any society , when they make that the condition of my Communion , which I am convinced of to be sin to me , that I question whether it be lawful or no , &c. Ans . How oft have I answered this , without any reply ? 1. If they make your consent to any sin , the condition of your Communion , you must avoid it : But if they put no sin on you , to be present when they sin , is a condition to all Church Communion , and to your own praying , who sin in all your self ; you before excepted sins of ordinary infirmity , as not warranting separation : And when did you ever prove that the composing and imposing of the Liturgy , ( much more the Obedient use of the Lords-day part ) is not a sin of infirmity , as much as slandering it and the Churches , and writing such Books as yours ? Accusing is not proving . 2. If your taking it for sin be true , you must forbear it : If you mistake it for sin , which is duty , ( per se or per accidens ) you sin against God , and truth , by your mistake , and by your Omission . God bindeth you to alter your Judgment ; and so he doth , if you take an indifferent thing for sin , tho here it is safest to forbear . An erring Conscience is no Lawmaker ( less then a Magistrate ) , but a misconceiver , and doth , ligare non obligare . XIII . Obj. But none of the things are indeed Worship , which you say men may command ? Ans . That man shall be none of my guide , that makes questions of bare names to seem to the people , as if they were about the matter named . [ They are such accidents of the Worship , which God himself commandeth , as are done in the outward expression of reverence and honour to God , and the more decent and edifying performance of his own Institutions . ] This is the description of them , ( Kneeling , being uncovered , swearing with outward signs , singing in Tunes , Metre , &c. ) . Agree to the thing , and call these Worship or no Worship , as you please . You say , False Worship is no Worship ; If so , it is no bad Worship ; but all faulty Worship is not null . XIV . As for his general talk of me , how much I have promoted Popery , and being for Justification by works , and merit , &c. I give him leave to ease his Stomach without an Answer , and all those to be deceived by him that will take his word , and not read mine ; especially , my Treatise of imputed Righteousness . Page 9. He saith , When the Scripture speaks of justification by faith : Doth any sound Divine or Christians understand it of the act of believing , but that its the obj●ct of faith that justifieth ? Ans . See how strictly these men stick to Scripture , that will have it the sole Law of Circumstances , and yet can deny it , as Expositors , at their pleasure ; when Paul over and over so often saith , That we are justified by faith , and faith is imputed for righteousness ; and Christ saith , Thy faith hath saved thee . It is not faith that they mean , but Christ . It is faith in Christ . There is no faith , but the act or habit of believing , Rom. 3.21 . The righteousness of God , which is by faith of Jesus Christ , on all that believe . 25. Through faith in his blood . 26. The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus : Many ways such will be odiously perverted , if you put Christ instead of Faith ; we are justified by no meritorious cause , but Christs righteousness : but that righteousness justifieth not Infidels , nor any but qualified Receivers ; and Faith is that qualification . Is not this true ? And is it not enough ? If you would preach or write censurious disputes , whether it be the Physitian , or the Medicine , or the Patients taking it , that cureth him ; or the Meat , or the Giver , or the eating it , that feedeth men , take your course : I had rather answer that , and most of your Books w●th groans and tears , than with disputing . XV. As for his threatning to open my faults as fast as I discover them . I may save him the labour , and lament them my self . Two I will confess now , besides all heretofore . 1. I fear I did sometime by connivence , and by too oft preaching against the faults of the Bishops about 1640 , encourage some that were set upon accusing and separating , over much . Tho I ever disliked and opposed that Spirit , and fore●●w what Divisions and Sins attended . 2. Tho , when I took the League and Cov●nant , it was not imposed , but offered to Volunteers , ( and I never gave i● but to one , and kept the Countrie from taking it ) ; yet seeing now , what I saw not then , I repent that I took it . ( Tho being taken , I dare not say that it bindeth not as a secondary Self-Obligation to that which God bound me to before . ) My reasons are ; 1. Because , as after imposed , no knowing man can believe that the thousands of ignorant people that took it , who never understood the controversies of Prelacy , could take it in Truth , Judgment , and Righteousness , and so must sin . 2. Because it cut the Nation in two parts , on pretence of Union , and engaged us against such excellent Persons , as Vsher , Davenant , and against the greatest half of the Land , when we should have united on the terms of the B●ptismal Covenant . 3. Because , being before by God and our Allegiance sufficiently ●lliged to the King , by a further Vow of mens own making against his will , they entangled the consciences of the people about the meaning and the obligation of it ; some thinking it bound them not to him ; and other , that it bound them to fight for him , and yet to oppose the Prelacy that he was for . And now the Law for Corporations binds men to declare that there is no ob●igation at all from that O●th ( either for the King , or against any sin ) . XVI . There are also more than one of my Opponents , who tell me , That because I live in prosperity my self , and suffer not , therefore I am insensible of the case of suffer●rs , and add affliction to the afflicted , and have not due compassion on them . Ans . If this be true , it is a great sin . But 1. why do the same men accuse me for perswading men to avoid sufferings , as they think , by ill means ? It is indeed to save men from suffering by mistake for that which was their duty , to the injury of others , and to reserve their patience for better uses , being like enough to have need of it all . 2. I thank God I am so far from being insensible of the sufferings of the church of Christ throughout the world , that I may say with Paul , Rom. 9.1 . I have continual sorrow in my heart for the wars , blood , c●uelties exercised on them , and much more for their own sin . And sure all the wrath that is agai●st me for labouring to save this Land from division , self-destroying and suffering , 1661. and since , might have been avoided , had I been so self-saving as the accusers feign me . 3. I thank God my suff●rings have been far less than I expected or deserved of God , and not worthy to be called sufferings in comparison of thousands in foreign Lands . And I humbly thank the King that they have been no greater ; but if they had , all had been now almost at an end . I am not willing to name them , lest it seem to savour of impatience , but remembring Pauls example to such accusers ( to the Corinthians ) I will briefly say , 1. From 1639. to 1660. I suffered more assaults and oppositi●n than some of them , by divers penalties for divers duties against iniquity . 2. I think I was the first silenced since the bishops return . And the hot displeasure against me for my pac●ficatory labour 1660. and 1661. is not unknown . 3. Enquire whether there be more virulent and voluminous accusations printed against me , or any one of them . 4 I have had no P●storal maintenance these 23 years , and no Church to maintain me , nor any stipendary Lecture ; and for about 15. years I received no gift of money from any , but one man , which I could not without incivility refuse . 5. When I went twice a day to their Church at Acton , I was sent to the common Gaol ( accused for a Sermon for meekness and obedience , and submission to Government ) and when I built a Chappel , it cost me about 20 l. to get a Minister out of the prison ( that had formerly been imprisoned for the Kings service ) for preaching but one Sermon there , when I was twenty miles off . 6. All that I had , was distrained on , and taken from me , all my books , and the very bed I lay on , for preaching after ( though , bona fide , they had been on just considerations given , or made over to another , and were not mine , but the present use of them only reserved to me ) and this by many warrants , as convict by the oaths of I know not whom , nor when , nor could ever know my accuser or witness , nor was ever summoned to speak for my self , much less to examine the witnesses . 7. I have been put in city and countrey to remove my habitation about twelve times , and my person twenty , in the midst of my pains , to my great cost and trouble . 8. How many thousand pounds my conscience hath cost me in the loss of a bishoprick ( by the Lord Chancellor offered ) since 1661. besides all other losses and charges , I leave you to compute , and ask you which of you hath lost more ? tho I acknowledg with thankfulness to God that I never wanted food or raiment . 9. And while I am now writing for Parochial churches and communion , and know no Law of the land that I break , I am hated ; and while I keep my bed in pain , or my couch , there are new assaults which I think not fit to publish . 10. And all this is but as a flea-biting in comparison of the sufferings which I carry about me by continual pain or langour through age and many uncurable diseases : And under the expectations of death , how small a matter is it to me , whether I dye in a Gaol for my duty to God , or in my hired house , out of which I have very few times gone these two years , but it hath been a prison to me . What difference but conceit and consent ? If our Rulers think it for the interest of any cause or party that I dye in prison , I shall acknowledg Gods will in the effect of theirs , and it shall not be in their power to make me suffer for any thing but my duty to God ( besides faults long ago pardoned , and common humane infirmities ) . And it is not mens calling duty by the name of the most odious sins , that depriveth Martyrs of their reward with God. The false imputation of sin by men , was not the least part of the sufferings of Christ and his Apostles , and the Martyrs in all ages . XVII . And because others as well as I , have need of such admonition , I will tell my Brethren , that our chief work is ( the same with J●bs ) to frustrate the Tempter , and see that in all this we sin not , nor charge God foolishly : And he that only triumpheth in suffering in conscience of his innocency , and doth not know that suffering hath its proper temptations , and studyeth not wisely how to escape them , will suffer more by himself than by all his enemies . I will therefore tell you what are the temptations here which I fear and watch against . 1. Lest the injuries of men should destroy my due charity to them : Tho its true that the setled Study and labour of some , for factious or carnal ends , be to destroy Christian Love , and serious Godliness , and the Souls , Bodies , and estates of the most innocent who they think stand in their way , ( and falsehood , hatred and destruction are the Devils work and image ) and no man must extenuate such crimes , John 8.41 , 42. Yet Diabolisme is not to be imputed to all that men suffer by ; much less to our Govornours , whom we must honour : Paul himself persecuted in ignorance ; and Christ said , they know not what they do ? Much less must we blame others , if truly the cause be only in our selves . 2. Much more must we watch against desires of revenge , or call for fire from Heaven , or imitate any that injure us , by requiring evil with evil , but see that we forgive as we would be forgiven . If they be impenitent , and God forgive them not , their suffering will be heavy enough . 3. We must watch against blinding passions , that it carry us not into contrary extremes , that we may be far enough from sin ; and so lest we fall into sin on the other side . Too few can keep to the line of truth ; most reel like drunkards from side to side . 4. We are much in danger of biassed study ; never studying impartially what may be said against us , and for our opposers , but only all that may be said for us against them . 5. Men that have a good cause are too apt to betray and spoil it by an ill manner of defending it , by mixt errors , ill arguments or passions , to the hardening of the adversaries and afflictors . 6. We must take heed that we fear not suffering wrong , more than doing wrong . He that doth the wro●g is a far greater sufferer or loser , than he that is wronged . Our study must be , that we neither think , wish , speak , or do any wrong to our adversaries and afflictors . 7. We must watch lest the great wickedness of any adversaries should be so much in our eye , as to tempt us to make light of our own sin , because it is not so great as theirs . 8. And we must watch lest the conscience of our good cause or innocency to man , should make us foget our many sins against God , for which he may permit men by injury to afflict us . 9. We must watch lest we judge of the Cause by the Person , and should take truth to be falshood , and good to be evil , because bad men or adversaries own it ; or lest we take falshood to be truth , and evil to be good , because good men hold it ; and lest in Love or Pity we justifie the s●n of any sufferers . 10 But we must specially take heed lest fleshly interest and love of r●ches , liberty or life , should bias and blind our judgments , to take any thing to be Lawful which we think is necessary to our quietness and safety , and to use sinful means to avoid danger and sufferings . These are my Studies , and I think them necessary to all . And the rather when ( it grieveth my heart to see , so ) many carryed by suffering so far from unity , charity , and moderation , that they even joyn with those whom they sharpliest accuse , ( tho by other reasons ) to do their very work , and to destroy that which they think they are promoting . For instance , 1. They blame the Papists and such conformists for saying that the Ministers of the Reformed Churches are no true Ministers : And they say the same . 2. They blame them for saying their Churches are no true Churches . And they say the same . 3. They blame them for recusancy , and saying it is unlawful to communicate with them ; and they say the same . 4. They blame them that silence Ministers , and forbid and hinder them from worshipping God. And they themselves disswade all the land from all publick Church-worship , where none but with those that use the Liturgy can be had . 5. They justly blame Love-killing reproachful Sermons . And they write Love-killing reproachful Books . 6. They justly blame false accusers of particular persons , and they ●●lsely accuse almost all the Churches on Earth , as no true Churches . 7. They are justly for mutual forbearance , and against cruelty ; and they unjustly aggravate the faults of almost all Church-worshippers on earth , as so odious that it must be separated from ; and in a sort excommunicate them 8. They fear Popery is ready to take possession of the Land and Church , and they exhort all Protestants to forsake all the publick churches , which are the Garison of the Protestant cause , that so the gates may be set open , and the Adversaries may find the houses ready swept and garnished , or the Garison emptied for their coming . 9. They are against the ejecting of the Ministers 1662. and yet crying down a Comprehension , they would not have them restored , unless it were on terms that will take in them also ( and who knoweth whom ? ) 10. Yea , the very top of Popery is to appropriate all power of church-government and worship to the Clergy , and to make Magistrates therein but the Clergies Executioners , saying they are only for civil government , for the body , but the Pope and Clergy only for Religious government of the church , and for the souls . And some called by dividing names among us , say , That Christ only and his Ministers have power in such matter● , and that Princes sin if they command but a Translation , a reverent gesture , a church-ornament , and such circumstances ; and that it 's a sin to obey them . When I see that exasperation by afflicters hath cast some sufferers into such self-contradicting ways , I will set on my heart and judgment a double watch in sufferings and abuse . And now Reader I again say , That tho I was dragg'd to this sort of work as against my will , I thank God ( and my sober sort of Opponents ) for calling me to it , that before I dye I might explain my Writings , and not by writing only against one extreme , leave them behind me as snares to tempt men to the other extreme . And I here leave my testimony again against all malignity that would charge these errors on the innocent for a cloak of hatred , and cruelty , and oppression , that I know not one meer Nonconformist that holdeth any of these errors ; and I verily believe that the Independents that I am acquainted with , are true servants of Christ ; and many called Anabaptists , sober , godly Christians ; and that some called Separatists retain Christian charity , and meerly for fear of sinning , flye too far from others . And as for all the rest , it is not mens calling them all Dissenters , nor their suffering together , that can make the innocent responsible for the faulty , who perhaps do more against their mistakes , than ever such Accusers did ( to cure them ) . And I must tell the Abaddons , that the opposition that hath been raised against them among those that I was acquainted with before 1641 , and 1642 , was caused chiefly by the badness of those that made it their trade to preach against strict and serious obedience to God , as Puritanism , and Hypocrisie , and made it the Ladder of their aspiring Ambition to make such odious , and to hunt with jealous severity those that used for mutual help in the ways of Salvation , to pray together ( especially if they fasted ) or consulted how to obey Gods Law : Justacting over the part of the Bps that Martin separated from , described by Sulpitius Severus , rendering all suspected of Priscillianism that were more than others in reading the Scripture , Fasting and Praying ) and clapping on the back with encouragement the Drunkards and prophane ignorant rabble , who in every Town were the haters of the godly Conformists and Nonconformists ; and making these the instruments of their malice , and praising them , and the multitude of ignorant , reading Priests , as more worthy Subjects , than men fearing God. Ri. Hooker in his Preface describeth these ; and he that readeth his Europae Speculum , may know that it was no better Conformists that his most beloved Pup●l , Sir Edwin Sandys was against , while he was one of the zealous Parliamentarians . It 's true that many were very hot against Bishop Laud and the Arminians , and against Dr. Heylin , and Dr. Pockington , for proving Sunday no Sabbath , and calling the Table an Altar , and the Ministers , Priests , and the Sacrament a Sacrifice . Blame not men that had read of their principles and practice , how Rome is a Leech that must live on blood , and cannot stand without it , if they were afraid of coming thither again , or drawing too near it . Upon my knowledg , the debauchery and malignity of many that hunted them , and would not let them stay at home in peace , and the terror of two hundred thousand murdered in Ireland , was it that drove most that ever I knew into the Parliaments Army : And fear doth often drive men to seek for self-defence to that which seemeth next at hand . Had those whom they feared been such as their functions obliged them to be , men of Holiness , Love and Peace , they would have been less prejudiced against the rest ; they bore easily with Dr. Chappel , Mr. May●en , and some other godly charitable men that were reputed Arminians . I here adjoin it to my confessions : 1. That I thought worse of that called Arminianism than I should have done : ( and have proved in my Catholick Theology , ( not yet writ against by any that I know of ) that the difference is not in any great and intolerable error on either side ) . 2. That the practice of them that prophaned the Lords day , and the malignity of their abettors , made me too much offended at the books that called the Lords day no Sabbath , and the Ministers , Priests , and the Table , an Altar , and the Sacrament , a Sacrifice : For I now know that these allegorical Names were usual with the best of the ancient Churches without contradiction : And that the Lords Day is indeed never called the Sabbath in the New Testament ; and that the word Sabbath in the Bible signifieth a day of ceremonial Rest , which was a Jewish Ceremony ; and that all such are by Paul said to be put down , and that the Lords Day is a day of holy Assemblies and rejoicing in spiritual , Evangelical Worship . Ignorance and prejudice in these controversies prevailed , not from argument , but from the experience of the quality of too many that opposed them : They thought it a most improbable thing , that God should illuminate vicious , worldly haters of Godliness , and desert those that most desired to please him . And of late times , what abundance have been driven from the publick Churches , by those that rail at them when they come there , and would get the Birds into their Net by throwing stones and bawling at them ; and would get the fish to take the bait , by beating the Waters . The Bishop of Worcesters silencing me , and preaching as he did , and the imprisonment of many of the people after , affected my old hearers with so much distast of that sort of men , that all the Writings and perswasions I could use , would not reconcile them , nor scarce keep them from falling out with me for my perswasions : And now they have a Worthy , Pious , preaching Bishop , a Man of Love and Peace , and a good Minister , they all crowd the Church , and are like to fall in love with such Bishops . And I must testifie , that with the generality of the Nonconforming Laity , I never found , but it was good preaching and good living that won their Love : And they will honour and follow such men , whether Bishops , Conformists , or Nonconformists . XV. Since the writing of this , I understand that some timerous persons have been afraid to communicate in publick , or joyn with the Liturgy , by hearing that some that have done it , have been so troubled in Conscience , that they have fallen into despair , and a doleful state of trouble . To this I answer , 1. You shall never prove that I have perswaded any Minister , to give Christs body and blood as a Drench to the unwilling , or to make the Sacrament of Love , the Instrument of Malice or Cruelty , or a snare to strangle Souls . It must be that Offence must come , but wo to them by whom it cometh . The old Church made men beg for Church-Communion ; if any withdraw from it , and excommunicate themselves , they did not send them to Goal for their Conversion , to force them to say , that they repent , and to force them to Communion . 2. But I must say , that these Ministers or people that have so ill taught these troubled Souls ( by Doctrine or Example ) as to tempt them to take their Duty ( or a lawful thing ) for so deadly a sin , are far from being guiltless of their Trouble , Distraction or Destruction . If any should make them believe that it were such a dangerous thing to pray by a Book , to sing Davids Psalms , to Communicatie with Presbyterians , not to be rebaptized , not to keep the Saturday Sabbath , &c. And then , when he hath affrighted one to make away himself in melancholy despair , should use this instance as an argument to affright away others also from their duty ; I should think that he were too blame : This were not by good words and fair speeches , but by bad words and deeds , to deceive the hearts of the simple , in causing divisions and offences . 3. I believe I have had with me in my time many scores that have had such melancholly terrors , without any such cause ; and must the matter of their trouble therefore be proved faulty ? I have known those that for many years could have no peace of mind , while they continued Orthodox and Religious ; and at last hearing Irreligious Sadduces , turned ●ilthy , and ranters , and were never under trouble more ( that could be perceived ) but boasted of their peace . Who knoweth not that Melancholly maketh many of the most sound and blameless persons , like Spira , a weary of their lives , thorough desparation . 4. I can tell these Objectors of eminent ancient godly men , that long forbore publick Communion , and at last used it , and have had more comfort and edification , than ever they had before ; and the more for breaking through all the sharp Censures of their former company , in obedience to their Consciences herein : And when they have seen a scandalous person with them at the Sacrament , have gone with Humility , Love , and Tears , and told him of his sin and danger , and had such success as hath comforted them more than avoiding that Communion ever did : yea , I know those that being threatned by violent Pastors , that use Dissenters with rigor , have humbly and submissively so pleaded with them from Scripture and experience , against that Spirit and Way , as hath overcome them , and melted them into a more tender and peaceable mind and course . A Postscript on a Book of Mr. J. F's . SINCE the Writing of all foregoing , I have received another Book sent me by J.F. Whether he will be angry if I expound this J. Faldo , I cannot tell ; I read it over to see if there were any thing in it that should change my Judgment : But I will not promise to do so by any more such . Nor will I so much as tell the Reader what my Judgment said of it in the reading ; much less write down the Answers which readily offered themselves to my understanding as I went on ; for it would but more provoke him , I see , and do the Reader little good , unless by helping him to lament the churches case through the infirmities of such as I and he are ; And the more patiently to bear all our present sufferings , by considering how unable we are to agree what to chuse for our selves , if we had our wills , and how far we should be from desired concord . I will not write a Book to contend on the question , Whether Mr. Faldo or I be the wiser or better man : I am conscious of so much ignorance and badness , that if it may edifie the Reader , let him think of me as ill , as Mr. Faldo and all such men would have him : If he have a good cause , I wish the Reader may be of his mind : If not , I find not my self obliged to talk on against such Writers any further , for his rescue ; nor do I think I can say any thing herein , which at his rate Mr. Faldo cannot answer . I only say , that he and such other have satisfied me , That the Liturgy-VVorship in the common Lords Day office is comparatively purer than the VVorship of many is like to be , who oppose it . His Counsel is good , to know what the VVorship is before I consent to it : I have tried what is in the Liturgy ; I concurred with many better men , 1661 in telling the VVorld , how far we could approve or use it . I find in it much good , and in the ordinary Lords Day common service , no fault that should alienate me from conjunction with the Church therein . To talk of faults in Baptizing , Burial , Marrying , &c ▪ is to say nothing to this point ; I never saw any of these used since I joined with the Church in the Lords-Day VVorship : But how to try Mr. F. his VVorship before-hand , I know not He saith , that if we will be at the cost of it , we may have better worship . And tho he seem displeased for being called a consenter to my catholick communion , either he consented that the Parish-Church-Worship should rather be used than none , or else ( which I suspect ▪ ) when I have read his Book , I cannot understand so much as what he is for or against ; what he meaneth by a Meeting of four , whether he take it for a Church , I know not : I take it not for a Church , that hath no Minister or Sacrament : And if he know of so many score , or hundred thousand Nonconformable Ministers as may guide all the People in England , as such Churches of four , I do not : And if Communion in the Liturgy be simply unlawful , it is so to all the Land. I think there are millions in the Kings Dominions , that can have no other Church-Worship than with the Liturgy , at what rate soever they would purchase it . If his conceits of my self contradictions were as true as they are false , I will tell him other reasons of what he counteth unaccountable , than that I wrote one Book in 1659 , and another in 1684. I am now 25 years elder than I was then ; and it s a shame to learn nothing in so many years : I am more above all worldly hopes than he is : I am past all capacity of them . I have less cause of fear than he : They will hardly confine me to a Prison narrower than my Bed and Couch . My glass is almost run : If I be not more apprehensive of my speedy account , and it awe me not to own nothing but the truth , without dawbing with one extream or other , I am much to blame . And I have seen some more of the experience of both extremes ( tho alas I saw too much before ) . And after all , comparing all together , I leave posterity my thoughts . 1. That I had rather the Church had a Liturgy ( to make all foreknow what Worship they meet for ) with free prayer also in its place , than to have either alone . 2. If they must be separated when the Minister is of tryed soundness and ability ; I had rather have his free prayer alone . But for many others , I had rather have the Liturgy alone . And for instance , Mr. Faldo hath oft told me , that his Church at Barnet ( as I twice said before ) not only omitted , but renounced or opposed all singing of Psalms for many years ; that many of them were of such ill opinions , that he was put to much work to save them from being Quakers ( and at what cost they can now have Church-Meetings when he hath left them , I know not ) . For Mr. Faldo to hold up such a Church even to suffering , and to write against Communion with the Liturgy , where there are able godly Ministers , is either erroneous partiality in him , or I am blind in my unwilling ignorance . To which I further add again , that I cannot expect that men Preach sounder Doctrine than they studiously Write ; nor that they pray more soundly than they preach ; and if Mr. Faldo , and all such Writers , so pray , and so preach , and so live , ( much more if also their Churches have such Maimed Worship as aforesaid , and some of them unordained Ministers , and many Churches men of many contrary doctrines ) I take the Common-prayer Book Worship and Communion , to be much purer than theirs . The Lord make our successors wiser , better , and more peaceable than we are . FINIS Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A27068-e15820 § 1. 
A48815	----	A conference between two Protestants and a papist, occasion'd by the late seasonable discourse Lloyd, William, 1627-1717. 1673 Approx. 77 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-05 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A48815 Wing L2675 ESTC R23405 12762280 ocm 12762280 93523 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A48815) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 93523) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 987:18) A conference between two Protestants and a papist, occasion'd by the late seasonable discourse Lloyd, William, 1627-1717. [2], 33 p. s.n.], [London : 1673. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Attributed to William Lloyd, Bp. of Worcester. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2003-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-03 Amanda Watson Sampled and proofread 2004-03 Amanda Watson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A CONFERENCE BETWEEN Two Protestants AND A PAPIST ; Occasion'd by the Late Seasonable Discourse . Anno Dom. 1673. To the Reader . AS Chance is sometimes more lucky than Design , an unexpected Re●contre has discovered more to me of the Inside of Papists , than I could ever learn by Enquiry . I carried a Friend o● mine to a Coffee-house , with no farther thoughts , than to divert my self for half an hour , and oblige him by ●n entertainment of little expense . In a corner of ●he Room I observ'd a Papist , one whom I had long known , alone and pensive , entertaining himself with his thoughts and pipe , and little minding the rest of the Company , which was all seated some distance from him . The convenience of the place invited us to sit down by him , and there happen'd a discourse betwixt us , which I here communicate to you , as near as I can in the 〈◊〉 words in which it past , at least I am confident not differing in substance : for as soon as we parted I went immediately home , and writ it down , and as my memory was then fresh , and my attention had been great , I believe I have omitted nothing which was material . To avoid repetitions I will put an F. for my Friend , a P. for the Papist , and for my self an N. After the usual passages of civility were ended , I began the Discourse in this manner . A Conference , &c. N. I Am sorry to observe your pensiveness . Will you permit me to guess at the cause , and tell you , I suspect the late Seasonable Discourse may have some share in it ? P. I was indeed thinking of that Book . N. Truly I cannot blame your trouble . That Gentleman has treated you something severely ; and if a Book which brings you so much shame , bring you some sorrow too , you may be pardoned . P. I must confess I was very sorry to see that Book , though for other reasons , it may be , than those which you imagine . But why do you think it so shameful to us ? N. Why , is it not a great shame to be such stiff Enemies ●s you are to so glorious a Church as the Church of England ; and such stiff ma●ntainers of so stupid a Religion as yours is ? P. For my Religion , this is no place to give account of it . There are Books enough which treat of that Subject . Only , since you are acquainted with me , I appeal to your self , whether you do in earnest believe me so stupid as to be given to Idolatry , or Supersti●ion , or the belief of Stories as impossible as Amadis de Gaul or the Knight of the Sun , which that Gentleman charges on us . N. I must declare I think better of you . But you cannot deny your e●●●●ty to the Church of England . P. I am ●a● from being an Enemie to it . F. By your favour , Sir , your principles are so fitted to the greatness of your great Spiritual Monarch , that you cannot be friends to any Church but ●is , no not ev●n of your own communion . For you hold that nothing , upon the matter , can be done in matters o● Religion , but what is done at Rome . A Convocation not call'd by allowance from thence , is thought but a Conventicle . A Bishop cannot be made , a Canonry , a Rectory granted , no Dispensation given , no Ecclesiastical Authority exerc●z'd , but the Pope must be at one end . I say nothing of our controversial Differences , because I perceive you are not willing to meddle with them . But 't is plain that while you hold thus , all but Italians , and those of the Popes Territories too , must needs be back friends to the Churches of their Native Countreys . Nay , you are within a little of leaving no Churches to which you might be kind . For what is a Church without Authority ? And if all Authority be in the Church of Rome , she is the onely Church , and all the rest but so many Parishes of her large Diocese , so much the worse to be govern'd , by how much they are farther distant from the onely true Bishop : for the rest will have no more than the name . P. How little do you understand how the world goes ? 'T is ●rue , there are of my Religion who are possest with this fancy , that unless the Bishop of Rome intervene almost in every thing , nothing is well done . And this I believe happens in a great measure , from a p●ece of Policie the greatest that ever has been practised in that Court. At least I have been inform'd so by one who assured me he learn'd so much at Rome it self , and that from a Regular too . And that is , the Exemptions which have been granted to most Regulars , and many Chapters , which have been exempted to a great degree from the Jurisdiction of their respective Bishops , and subjected immediately to the Pope . These Communities thus exempted , are obliged for their own Interest , and to prese●ve the ●dvantages which they enjoy by exemption , to magnifie the Power which exempted them . By which means , both they themselves are brought to depend on the Pope alone , and Bishops too , who , all dependance on them being thus taken away , are left weak and defenseless , and unable to maintain their due Authority . I cannot tell whether the Jealousies of Princes , peradv●nture suspicious of too much Authority in their Subjects , have no● much contributed to this eff●ct . For I see that in some places they have made particular agreements with the Pope , against the inclinations , and even Remonstrances of their own people , according to which their Bishops are forced to regulate themselves . However it be this Paramount , Omnipotent ( if I may so call it ) Authority of the B●shop of Rome has been cry'd up so much , and so long , and by so many , and those so much concern'd ( though thought disinteressed by the vulgar ) that it has now gain'd a great vogue , and passes among those who look not into things , for unq●estionable . And yet the vogue is much less now than heretofore , before our Countreyman Occam began to write in behalf of Lewis of Bavaria . Notwithstanding still there are who think the cry greater than the wool , and even complain and wish for remedy . That Author , and you after him look upon this as part of my Religion , when alas ! how many are there of my Religion who look upon it as a grievance ? They were of my Religion who made the several S●atures of Provisors and Praemunire , which alone would serve for answer to a good par● of the Book in question . However they declare there very plainly that the interposing of the Court of Rome , and this even in presentments to Benefices or at least cogn●●●nce of the Plea , translation of Bishop● , &c. ( which be matters Spiritual enough ) are clearly against the King● Crown and his Regality used and approved of the time of all his Progenitors — That the Crown of England hath been so free at all times , that it hath been in no Earthly Subjection , but immediately subject to God in all things , touching the regality of the same , and to none other — And God defend , say they , it should be submitted to the Pope ( as by the interposing aforesaid they declare it would ) and the Laws and Statutes of the Realm by him defeated and avoided at his will — Besides , that they will stand with the King , his Crown and Regality in the cases aforesaid , and in all other cases attempted against him , his Crown and Regality in all points to live and die . I know not , but methinks 't is very strange that People should be suspected of disaffection to their National Church , and this out of too much affection to the Pope , who a low not the Pope to meddle so much as with the most inconsiderable Benefice of the Nation . I conceive it is the right of every N●tional Church to provide for the particular concerns of that Nation , without any necessity of recourse to Forreigners . Sure I am that we who live now , are as true Englishmen as our Ancestors , and love Forreigners no more , nor think our selves ty'd to more subjection to them . If the State would think fit to allow us Englishmen , s●ch of who●e fidelity and aff●ction to their Countrey they were well assured , to whom we might have recourse for our spirit●al concerns , we should quickly remove their jealousies that we are over much affected to Strangers . F. If you be so little affected to Strangers , why do you not enter into t●e communion of the Church of England ? P. While our controversial differences remain undecided , if we come , we must come with bad Consciences ▪ and I suppose the Church of England would not admit of Hypocrites . Neither indeed is it for her safety to receive those who do not believe as she doe● . F. If we must not expect you till the differences of Religion be determined , I expect you not till Doomsday . People have writ and writ these hundred years , and the more they write , the further we are from agreeing . The end of Controversie and the end of the World I believe will happen both in one day . P. With any other Church of the Reformation perhaps it might be as you say : but I do not think the Controversies betwixt the Church of England and us so irreconcileable as you imagine . And for this reason understanding Catholicks are more affected to her than any Church of the Reformation . She began the Separation in an orderly way , and free from those tumultuous violences which happened in other places . And as things carried by deliberation are always better done , than when they are hurried on by heady ra●●ness , though we think she has gone t●o far , yet I believe her moderation has preserved what may one day help much to closing the breach betwixt us , when Gods providence shall employ men about it who truly d●sire it . F. Pray what do you mean by this ? P. I mean more than I shall perhaps upon the sudden remember . You must be contented with what occurs . F●rst we o●●●●ve that she , and peradventure she alone , has pr●serv'd the face of a continued mission , and uninterrupted Ord●nation . Then i● Doctrines her moderation is great ▪ She professing , not posi●ively to disbelieve , but onely not to believe most , i● not ●ll , points in di●ference betwixt us ; and in th●se of greatest concern has ex●r●st her self very warily and so that her words may be brought to ●uit with our belief ; unl●●● where to gratifie , I suppose other dissenters , some harsh expr●ssion has been inserted beyond the intention of the first compilers of her Doctrines . In Discipline she ●reserves the Government by Bishops , agreeing in that point , which is of great concern , so alone with the Church of Rome , th●t when the Reformation met in the Synod of Dort , the Engl●sh , I ●hi●k , were the onely Bishops there . But above all we pr●ze in h●r the aversion she has from Fan●t●cism , and that wild error of the private Spirit with wh●ch 't is impossible to deal , since what they believe to day they may disbelieve tomorrow . From this absurdity the Church of England desi●es to keep he● self free . She holds indeed that Scripture is the Rule of Controversie ; but she hol●s withall , Tha● it is not o● private interpretation . She is for Vin●●ntius Lyrine●sis , Quod ab omnibus , quod semper quod ubique ; and we are for the same . Our Controver●ists ind●●d generally ●●y , That Tradition is the Rule , and when this comes to be scan'd I believe it will be found , the true difference is more in words than meaning ; at least it may soon and easi●y be seen which of the two sp●ak more properly . However while we both agree in that me●hod of Vincentius , which is an open visible way , and has nothing of the p●ivate ●ancy , miscall'd the Spirit , methinks ' twe●e no ●●ch impossible thing to take our Controversies one by one and try them by that Test. We shall not insist upon what is not Vincenti●● p●o●● , and what is sh● professes to ●m●race as well as we . N. I m●st conf●ss I did not reflect on ●o much bef●●e . But meth●nks so many learned and good men ●aving spent their time in the study of these things , they must needs have thought of all which can be thought on . And since we see no effect of all their medi●ations , I cannot but think there must of necessity be more in the case , some impossibility or other which has scap'd your observation . Otherwise why should the breach last so long , if it may so easily be closed up ? P. I am not so vain to imagin I see all that can be seen . I tell you w●at appears to me . It may be there may be something which appears not . But I wish it were put to tryal , and learned and unpassionate men employ'd to consider what might be done . Men o● animosity and stiffness , do more harm with their bitterness , than the● can do good with their learning . But if people would once l●y aside their passions , and not look upon one another as enemies , they might peradventure quickly cease to be so . You must needs perceive that the weak and the fierce , are a great deal more numerous than the Judicious and the calm . When any thing is said or written on either side , which by good handling might be improv'd to some degree of reconcilement , generally there steps in som or other of the former sort , ( as the more ignorant and passionate a man is ▪ the more rash and busie he is too ) and by his fiery zeal not onely choaks the seed of any good overture , but for the most part makes things worse than they were before . 'T is possible there may be some who do not desire Contentions should be ended ; whether it be from a perverseness of nature , or the consideration of some particular Interest . But I see with grief that moderate counsels have been discountenanc'd on both sides . Even this Author himself has a fling at Pacific writ●rs . F. And has he not reason , when those peaceful pretences are but baits to catch the unwary Proselyte , who when he is once hung , there is no getting loose again , but concessions are retracted , the painted shews washt off ; and he has nothing left but a fruitless repentance . P. As if we had any Prisons in which to keep men against their will , and every man were no● free to leave us when he pleases ; as I suppose few would stay who should find themselves so deluded . 'T is likely you may know some ; pray enquire of them whether they have more obtruded on them after they came to us , than they were made acquainted with before . Here is that Authors affirmation , and my denyal ; believe neither of us , but satisfie your self , of those who can speak of their own knowledge . N. I am glad to perceive the breach is not altogether so wide as some imagine ; but yet there is one reason which makes me despair of any good . And that is because you are , and must be always Enemies to the State. Believe me our Church will no more harbor Traytors than Hippocrites . P. Enemies to the state , and Traitors . God forbid . N. Be not offended at the harshness of my Language , which I use not for malice , but to speak properly , and call things by their own names . 'T is not t●at I charge you with actual Treason , but with Doctrines which wi●l make you traytors when ever they be put in practise . And in my opinion there is not much difference betwixt an actual Traytor , and one who is ready to be so , as soon as there is occasion . P. Truely I think there is not . F. If you think so , I do not see how you can be excused , That power which the Pope claims to depose Kings , and d●●pose of Kingdoms is so destructive to the safety of Princes , and q●iet of Kingdoms , that you must needs see you cannot be good Subjects , while you believe it . Neither can you be Papists if you believe it not . The Pope will no more endure you not to hold it , than States can be safe where you do . P. This is a Topick which never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against Papists . It has been often objecte● and as often answered . Since you oblige me to speak of it , let me tell you , you are wonderfully out in your apprehension of things . If the Pope should break w●th all , who believe no● that Power in him , he would quickly have but a thin Communion . I am yet to learn the na●e and situation of that Coun●ry which belie●es it . F. How of that Country ? As if it were not beleev'd in all Countrys of your Communion . And that we may not doubt of it , Bellarmine ( against Barclay ) produces writers of all Countrys who maintain it , I think he musters them up to 72 ▪ but sure they are not like the Disciples butonly in number . P. Bellarmine had undertaken to maintain that position , and makes as good a shew as he can . From the beginning of the world , or rather from Gregory 7th . who is his first man , he has found out the number you mention , and others cite twice as many ag●●nst ●i● , some the very same alledg●d by him . How pertin●ntly on either sid● we cannot now examine . But I never th●●●ht of denying , those Doctrines may be found in Books ; I deny there is any Nation to be found which believe them . Authors m●y ●●ite , and yet find few who give credit to what they say . If we would know what people believe , we must consider what they do , not what Scholars write . For let them write upon what motives they will , people certainly act according as they are perswaded . Now to come to particulars , there are few Nations , where the Neighbourhood gave opportunity , but have at some time or other been at open enmity with the Pope . The Spaniards , who are thought the most devoted to him , have taken h●m Prisoner . The D●ke of Atva himself commanded an Army against him , and forc'd him to his terms of Peace . The Venetians , not to mention other breaches , were so resolute in their contest with Paul 5th , that it came to an Interdict : And they neither obeyed it , nor would be brought by any sollicitation of powerful Mediators to accept of absolution . Other Princes of Italy have been at wars with him , and that lately in the times of Vrban the 8 h. and Innocent the 10th . Of the French we shall speak by and by ; but these have had as many and as great contrasts with him , as any other . Which of all these Princes has been deserted by his Subjects , or found them less ready to stand by them against the Pope , than against anoth●r man ? Had they indeed believed aright in the Pope , to dep●●e Princes , and dispose of Kingdoms , they must needs taken his part ; and left their own Princes defenceless ▪ But you see no such thing has happened , and may therefore certainly conclude they believe no such power . The pretence of it may be sometimes used to colour an unjustifiable action , when people can get no better ; but I am confident there is no Prince or people in the world , who truely believe it . F. Truely , I know not what to say to you , what you alledge is manifest , and kno●n to the world ; though I did not refl●ct on it before . But how comes it that Doctrines so little believ'd are so openly maintain'd , and so maintain'd , that they are alltogether in vogue , and the contrary hardly find maintainers . P. The contrary Doctrine never wants maintainers , when there is occasion ; neither are they the less numerous , or the less considerable , for making the less noise : whereof the reason is the eagerness with which the Pope espouses an opinion so favourable to him , which hinders us from being willing to do any thing which we think he would take ill . And so we let people talk as they please , till there be a necessity of declaring plainly what we think . And then it plainly appears that the sence of the world is very different from the thoughts of those writers how much soever they be cryed up . Neither are the maintainers even among writers so few , as you imagine . I am sure in our Nation there have been more Catholick Writers against it than for it . Thirteen eminent men subscribed a loyal profession to Queen Elizabeth , even alter the Bull of Pius the 5th . came o●t : to whom ▪ sayes Widdrington , thrice thirteen would willingly have been added , had they not been prevented by the sudden publication of that profession . And when Campian , Sherwin , and some others gave evasions instead of answers to the Questions , about the Power of the Pope and Queen , one Iohn Bishop , a man devoted to the See of Rome , ( says Mr. Cambden ) wrote against them , and foundly proved that that constitution of the Lateran Council obtruded under that name , upon which the whole authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance , and deposing Princes is founded , is no other , than a Decree of Pope Innocent the 3d. and was never admitted in England . Yea that the said Council was no Council at all , nor was any thing at all there decreed by the Fathers . F. But why do Princes permit the course of such Doctrines , which cannot but be dangerous , if ever the people should come to be perswaded of them , as if they go on uncheckt , 't is like enough they one day will. P. As if I would give account of the couns●ls of Princes , or should think it fit , though I could ▪ I suppose they find it for their interest ; according to which , wise Princes take t●eir measures , and having many intrigues with the Pope , judge it advantagious to please him with words , which they see have little credit with the wise . When there is any occasion of contest , they know well enough that the wise will sway the rest . It may be they have at some time or other , made use of that pretence themselves , or foresee some occasion wherein they may . But neither is it true , that those D●ctrines go curran● ev●ry where . 'T is treason in France , to Print , or disperse , or so m●●h ●s keep the Books wh●ch have been condemn'd for main●●●ning 〈◊〉 . ●nd his very Book of Bellarmins , which you have 〈◊〉 j●st now , is one . Besides all the●r Univ●si●ies have solemnly and particularly co●demned them , as pernicious , and ●ere ●ab●● co●trary to the word of God , &c. The Decrees bot● of Parliament and Universities have been so often publisht that you must needs have seen them . F. I must confess I have . P. Why then you see tho●e Doctr●nes are not maintained every where , nor any condition of Catholick Communion any where . The Pope communicates freely with the French for all this , and so does the rest of the world . Which perhaps may be one reason why th●y are the less forward to condemn them in other places . For they see , ●hey can never pa●s for Catholick , so much as in the opinion of the people , while so considerable a part of the Church so openly disavows them . Wherefore , reserving to themselves the liberty to do as they see fit upon occasion , t●ey are willing to gratify the Pope in the mean time , and let Scholars talk as they please , F. But pray what do you think of those Doctrines your s●l● ? P. What should I think , but that they are false and naught ? F. And why do you not then disclaim them ? P. You see I do . F. I mean publickly , P. Because it is to no purpose , and I fear would look as odly as the request of the Cutpurse , who went to the Constable and and would needs be set in the P●l●ory by him ; where when the flock●ng multitude ●o●d gazing and laughing at the mans folly , his Companions pic●t all their pockets . Shall I deal plainly with you ! 'T is you your s●●ves who are the cause that the●e Doctrines are not renouncd ' , o● wh●ch you pretend such fear . F. We● who are perpetually pressing you to renounce them , and there●o●e deal the more unkindly with you , because , ●i●l you do it we cannot think you honest men . P. And when we have given you satisfaction , pray what more kindness would you , or can you by Law shew us ? The Law makes no difference betwix● a Papist who renounces , and a Papist who holds those Doctrines ; neither is there any Penalty from which that renunciation would exempt him . On o●r side you know as well as we , there are some who have more k●ndness for them then fitting . It cannot otherwi●e be , but these men will look very untowardly on any who by such a publick renunciation shall condemn their perswasions , especially if he be neither obliged , nor so much as invited to do it . Some of them have been passionate and rash , and will be apt to revenge themselves , by clamors and harsh censures , and peradventure cause intelligence to be given even at Rome , where as they are very tender in this point , and very impatient of anything which they conceive shocks their authority , you may be sure they will do all that comes in their way to discountenance such a man , and work his discredit , and it may be discomfort . On the other side , you take no care to give him any manner of protection , or so much as countenance ; but leave him to shift as well as he can for himself , without any ease from the burthen to which he is otherwise subject . As your heats a● present , and often , are very great against us , none knowes but he may at last be turn'd a begging , and be forc'd to seek relief in forreign Countrys , whe●e Charity is like to be very cold to him , against whom the Pope is incenst . What ever people think in their hearts , ) they will shew but little countenance to him against whom the Pope declares himself . Who would gratify you upon these terms , when a man is sure to live uncomfortably with those of his own Communion , and receive no relief from you , forwhose sake he runs into that inco●venience ? A● you carry matters , 't is hard to be imagined otherwise , but ●hat whatever you say , you are in truth unwilling those Doctrines should be renounc'd , perhaps least you lose something to say a●ainst us . Do bu● provide that he who satisfies you in this particular , and r●nounce● those Doctrines as fully as you can desire , be cherisht with some moderation , and taken into the protection of the Laws , and then be angry freely with those that refuse to do it . M●ke them Treason , if you will , h●re , as they are in France , fo● any concern I have in them . N. M● thinks you do your self much wrong , to keep these things conceal'd If every body knew as much as you have told us , perhaps the heats of which you complain might cool , and people be less incenst against you . P. I tell you no secrets . These things have been publish'd over and over and over again , but no not●ce is taken of them . This Author objects these Doctrines as freely , as if nothing had ever been said to the● . And yet considering how well he is acq●ainted with all sorts of books , sure he must needs know we areas ready to renounce them , as he is● forward to object them . F. I must confess you speak like an honest man ; but yet you answer for no more then your self . You may be , and I believe are innocent ; but you cannot deny there are among you men of other principles . And ●t would not be safe , for the sake of a few good , to cherish perhaps a great many bad N. Nay Sir , I cannot agree with you there . If you think it not safe , to protect the bad in respect of the good , I am sure it is not just to punish the Good , for the faults of the Bad. We bl●me them for holding these Doctrines : What can we have more more of them , than to renounce them ? Those who do this no●estly and fairly , without tricks or starting holes , what have we to say against them ? God forbid we should imitate the unreasonable severity of those Nations , which when one man commits a fault , punish ●oth him , and all his relations , though never so innocent . 'T is no such hard mat●er to discern which are fit for mercy , and which not ; and I wish others may think so too , and hope they will. But though I am in this particular , as I hope I always shall be , a freind to Truth , I must needs declare to you I am no freind to Popery . When I consider the many inconveniences which the Seasonable Discourse has well observed , I believe we cannot be too follicitous to keep it out . Pray what think you ? P. I think 't is strange you should be so little acquainted with men , who live amongst you , and with whom you converse every day . The understanding part of those whom you call Papists , have peradventure as little inclination to Popery as your selves , and would joyn heartily with you , if there were occasion , to keep it out : especially if they were indulged such a proportion of mercy as might make them live with comfort . For while men live uneasily , I cannot say but they may have some inclinations to be at ease . F. How ! Papists keep out Popery ! you may as soon persuade me , that Fire will keep out Heat . P. I know not what credit I have to persuade you , but I tell you nothing but what I certainly know . Pray cast your eye a while on our Neighbors the Hollanders , no Fools in matters of Government . They make a shift to allarm us with fears of Popery , which being an odious thing , they think proper to cause jealousie among us , and serve their ends ; but their actions manifest that they believe nothing less . They have a greater number of Papists than we have . They are a considerable part of their Countrey , equal if not superior to any one party . Whatever the Hollanders say to amuze us , they are so far from being disquieted with fears of Popery themselves , that they take the very Priests into the protection of the Magistrate , and give the rest a comfortable indulgence : not out of carelessness , but because they are secure . For while the Papists have no pinching dissatisfactions to make them wish to change , they see well enough that they will not think of embroiling things , and upon uncertain hopes of a condition which cannot be much happier than the present , hazard to make themselves very unhappy by losing the present . So that till the Papists can convert the whole Nation one by one , the States see their Religion will never be in other terms than it is , and that is so unlikely , that she never has the least suspicion of it . For this desire to make Proselytes , which is common to all as well ●s Papists , gains and loses particulars , but advances little in the general . Experience shews the progres of either side is inconsiderable , and the benefit to the State very much . The Papists upon many occasions having been found as faithful to the State , as any of their fellow Subjects . Even at this time , while they have War with a powerful Enemy of that Religion , and who has lodg'd a powerful Army in the bowels of their Countrey , they find the Papists as fast to the interest of the State , as the best , and as earnest opposers of a Forreign Power , though likely to introduce their Religion , if it should prevail . F. I am apt to believe that ease might hinder you from desiring change ; for men therefore change because they are uneasie . But 't is still incredible to me that you should in earnest ever resist Popery . 'T is a Forregn Enemy , not Popery , which the Holland Papists oppose . P. But that Forreign Enemy , if he were suffered to come in , wou●d bring Popery along with him . But let us unde●stand one another . I conceive you mean by Popery what the word sign●fi●s , a blind addiction to the Pope , and what this Discourser meant , viz. something which is attended with those inconveniences he mentions . And I can assure you those among us that understand things , and know how to distinguish Religion from Abuse ( I will not undertake for every extravagant Zealot ) would be as u●willing to admit them as your selves . Do you think us so sensele●s as to be willing to forfeit our birth rights ? to be deprived of the b●nefit of our Native Laws ? to submit to the Jurisdiction of Forreign Courts , and at the summons of every crafty wrangler to run a thousand miles a pettifogging ? do you think those among us who are possest of Abby-lands , ( whereof many are still in the hands of P●pists , and make if not all , yet many times a great part of their Estate ) would easily resign them , and beggar themselves and Posterity ? Do you think us unconcern'd in the wealth of the Nation , or forward with an Indian simplicity to barter gold for trifles ? F. But how could you help it ? P. Help what ? we are troubled with no such grievances , nor ever mean to be . F. God-a-mercie Reformation , which has remov'd those burthens . P. The Statutes before mentioned eased as in part ; and Hen. the 8. no great friend to the ●eformation , did the rest , and more perhaps , than were it to do again , your selves would do . But whatever was the cause , whether Reformation , or any thing else , we are not subject unto those inconveniences now , and I believe shall never subject our selves to them by our good wills . F. Your Doctrines would subject you to them in spite of your teeth ; while you believe of the Pope as you do , there is no remedy but you must let him act as he does . While you acknowledg him Head of the Uuniversal Church , you must grant him power to make Laws for the Universal Church , and when he makes them , you must obey them . Therefore he may cross and weaken the Laws of any particular Nation , and remove proceedings to his own Court as he pleaseth . You must either absolutly renounce him , or enslave your Country : for this unavoidably follows from what you believe . P. I thought I had believed my share of the Pope ; but I am sure I believe no such matter ; and ●m sure my Catholick Ancestors believed as little as 〈◊〉 . No remedy say you ? Does the Statute of Praemunire be●ore mentioned , si●●●fie nothing ? no● the severe penalties elswhere enacted against all of what condition soever which shall draw any out any out of the Realm , in plea whereof the cogniz●nce belongeth to the Kings Court , or whereof judgments be given in the Kings Court , or which do sue in any other Court to defeat or impeach the judgment given in the Kings Court ? Behold how much we think our selves obliged to forreign jurisdiction , and how forward we are to enslave our Country . This is no place to dispute the Popes Authority . Controversie does as ill in a Coffe h●use as Pollicy . But it seems n● hard matter to distinguish Primacy from Omnipotency , and t is easie to see he may be Head , and yet cannot force Laws on particular places without their consent . Hen. 8th was by Statute declared Head of the Church of England . That Ti●le hath been since ch●nged into Supream Governour , which in my opinion , amounts to the same . However , neither the one nor the other enables our ●●●ngs to make Laws without the consent of their Subjects If you look into Countrys of the Popes Communion , I do not believe that you will find any one , where they think themselves obliged by any Law made at Rome , purely by virtue of that Authority . They allways examine it themselves , and if they think it convenient , they receive it , and that reception makes it binding ; otherwise , no man regards it , or thinks himself obliged by it , and perhaps would be punished if he should . The Discourser mentions the Canon Law , which here we our selves do not wholly reject ; and when we do , must undo Doctors-Commons . Now I understand not that the Cannon Law is obliging farther than it is received , or that any Country is obliged to receive it , farther then as they find it for their convenience . Every Nation is at liberty to do what appears best for themselves And therefore we see what is binding in one place , signifies nothing in another . And since England is now free from the Cannon Law , more than she finds for her benefit , assure your selves Papists would be as unwilling to part with that freedom as Protestants . We love not to thrust our necks into Yokes more than other people . I think indeed , if any decrees for the advantage of our Country were sent from Rome , we should not refuse a benefit , meerly because it came from thence . But we do not believe that what comes from thence , is obliging purely because it comes from thence ; but only , when after due examination , by due authority at home , it is by that authority made obliging . And this holds , not only in decrees of Popes , but of Councels too , though never so general . Nations admit them as they like them , and so either receive all , or part , or none . Every body knows that no inducements have yet been able to prevail with the French to receive such Canons of the Council of Trent as concern manners . For which reason no man there is obliged to these decrees or any such , but where they will oblige themselves . F. What you say is really considerable . But I fear it does not quite do the Business . There is a great difference betwixt Laymen , and Clergimen . The Layety may be well enough affected to the peace of their Country , to which they give their Wifes and Children for Pledges ; but the Clergy have no such hostages to give , and besides are so tyed by Education , and , if they aim at any preferment that is considerable , by Oath to the Bishop of Rome that we cannever be secure of them . Shall I deal freely with you , and tell you an unwelcome truth ? 'T is for the Clergies sake , that we are the more jealous of you all . We could believe the Laiety honest enough . But considering the influence the Clergy has over them both by the respect which you bear them , and by the ty of Confession , by which they are enabled to do even what they please , we can never be secure of one , unless we were secure of both . Now for your Regular Clergy , your self acknowledges the immediate dependance they have on the Pope by means of their exemptions . But we know besides , that all particulars vow obedience to their Superiors ; which obedience passes for the greater vertue and more sublime perfection by how much the more blind it is . These Superiors are subject to one another , till all comes at last to the General , to whom the whole Order is absolutely subject . This General both lives at Rome , and is many ways sure enough to the Pope . So that if any one of the whole Order displease him , the General presently takes his part , and enforces the obedience vow'd to himself , to whatever the Pope desires . And as we see in reason this must needs happen , so we find by experience that it does ; as in the case of Walsh , Withrington , and others . Your secular Clergy , as you call them , indeed have not the same dependance , and were they left to their native liberty might do well enough . But the Pope has found out an expedient to bring them to his bow , and requires such an Oath both from Bishops and other Dignitaries , that those who take it must needs be more his Subjects than their own Princes . Wherefore pray consider whether we can in any reason have a confidence in men who , though they be well disposed themselves , are governed by such as we know are tyed to the Popes interest . P. The more I should think it is for your interest to allow us such as are of good Principles , and of whose fidelity and affection to the interest of their Country you might be assured . You know as well as we that , we cannot be without Priests , and that whatever hazard we undergo , whether of estate or life , we must have some . So that unless you banish or hang us all up without more ado , while there is a Papist in England , there will be a Priest. Now while you hinder us from having men brought up in such principles as might be free from jealousie , 't is not possible for us to do otherwise than we do : for we are forc'd to take such as we can get ; and if they prove otherwise principl'd than you would have them , the fault is none of ours . As for the objections , that vow of obedience which Religious take , reaches no farther then to the better performance of the duties of that kind of life which they have chosen , and is so understood , and not otherwise , by those among them who are understanding . And if you apprehend any danger in it 't is very easie to make provision against it . But for the Oath , which you mention , I must needs profess my ignorance ▪ I have never so●n ● nor heard of it , and therefore know not what to say to it . But I know in general that no Subject can take any Oath prejudicial to the safety or service of his Native Prince , and if he do is obliged not to keep it . Neither do I think an Oath can be imposed upon the Subjects of any Prince without his consent , or at least against his con●●●● . F. I easily believe you have not seen it , and that few of your Layty are acquainted with such things . But , Sir , we are better verst in your matters than you imagin . I think I have a copy of i● rendered into English at this time about me . Yes , here it is . Pray read it , and see if we have not reason to be jealous . And if you doubt of the Translation , do you compare it with Original Latine , as 〈◊〉 is in the Pontificale Romanum ( of Clement the 8 ) pro universo orbe Christiano , Printed at Antwerp 1617. P. IN. Elect to the Church of N from this day forward will be faithful to B. Peter the Apostle and the H. Rom. Church , and our Lord N. Pope N. and his Successors canonically entring . I will not concur by counsel , consent or deed that they lose life or member or be unjustly taken , [ mala captione ] or violent hands in any manner laid upon them , or any injury done them under whatsoever pretext . I will not knowingly discover to any one to their prejudice any counsel with which they shall intrust me , either by themselves , by their Messengers or Letters . I will help them saving my Order , against all men , to keep and defend the Rom. Papacy and Regalities of S. Peter . I will treat with honour , and in his necessities help a Legat of the Apostolic See both going and coming . I will endeavour to preserve , defend , increase and promote the Rights , Honours , Privileges , and Authority of the H. Rom. Church , our Lord the Pope , and his aforesaid Successors . I will not communicate in counsel , deed , or treaty in which any thing sinister and prejudicial to their Person , Right , Honour , State and Power shall be design'd against our said Lord , by the Rom. Church . And if I shall know any such thing to be treated , or endeavoured , I will hinder it to my power , and , as soon as ever I can , will acquaint our said 〈◊〉 therewith , or some body else by whom it may come to his knowledge . I will 〈◊〉 self observe , and cause to be observ'd by others , the Rules of the H. Fathers , the Decrees , Ordinances or Dispositions , Reservations , Provisions , and Apostolical commands . I will to my power prosecute and impugn Hereticks , Schismaticks , and Rebels to our said Lord and his said Successors . If I be call'd to a Synod , I will come , unless I be hindred by a canonical impediment . Every three years I will personally visit the shrines of the Apostles , and render account to our Lord and his Successors aforesaid of my whole pastoral Office , and of all things any way belonging to the state of my Church , the discipline of the Clergy and People , and the health of Souls entrusted to my charge , and on the other side will humbly receive and most diligently perform the Apostolical commands . If I be detained by a lawful impediment , I will fulfill all aforesaid by a special Messenger having a special Mandate to that purpose , chosen from the bosom of my Chapter , or some other Ecclesiastical Dignitary , or otherwise having some Ecclesiastical Personage ; or in default of such , by some Priest of my Diocess ; and if there be none of my Clergy , by some other Priest Secular or Regular , of approved virtue & Religion fully instructed in all matters aforesaid . And of such impediment I will make lawfull proof to be sent by my said Messenger to the Cardinal presiding [ proponert●m ] in the Congregation of the Sacred Council . I will not sell , nor give nor pawn , nor mortgage anew , [ infeudabo ] nor alienate in any manner the Possessions belonging to my Table even with the consent of the Chapter of my Church , without consulting the Bishop of Rome . And if I do proceed to any alienation , I consent ●o ipso to incur the penalties contain'd in a certain Constitution set forth of this matter : So help me God and these H. Ghospels of God. F. Well , Sir , what say you to it ? P. I say I would not take it for the best Bishoprick in Christendom . As far as I can judg it is direct Prae●●nire , and perhaps worse . But pray , Sir , where did you find it ? Those Princes who are of the Popes communion are careful enough of their Authority . It seems impossible they should be ignorant of it , and incredible they shou'd permit their Subjects to take it . I cannot believe it is in use , wherever you found it . F. I have never been present at the consecration of any of your Bishops , to say of my own knowledg that it is taken : But I know it is prescribed in your Pontifical to be taken ; And I suppose your Bishops are consecrated according to the prescriptions of your Pontifical . P. Really , Sir , you tell me news , and such as I dare answer there is not on one ( at least Lay ▪ ) Catholick in ten thousand that ever heard of it . I will not question the truth of what you ●ay , because I do not mistrust you ; and besides 't is an easie matter when I can meet with a Pontifical to see what is there . But I must still remain of my former opinion , that 't is not generally in use , though perhaps it may be in the Popes own territories . The Authority of the Pontifical is no proof as to that point . For other countreys have their Pontificals and Liturgies of their own framing , and that may be in the Roman Pontifical which perhaps is no where else . That 't is of no ancient standing , is clear by the Oath it self , which mentions the Congregation of the Sacred Council , and every body knows that that Congregation was erected since the Council of Trent ; and every body knows too tha● since that time Popes have not had that credit in the world that they could impose Oaths upon the Subjects of other Princes without the consent of those Princes . For England in particular , besides the Statutes beforementioned , which in my opinion quash it sufficiently , there is mention in Sir Ed Cook in his 3 book of Institutes tit . Praemuni●e , of a renunciation used even from the times of Ed. 1. and Ed. 2 in these words : I renounce all the words comprised in the Popes Bull to me made of the Bishoprick of A which ●e contrary or prejudicial to the King our Soveraign Lord and to his crown , And of that I put my self humbly in his Grace , praying to have restitution of the temporalities of my Church . This renunciation must needs be a great deal more ancient than this Oath ; and since our Catholick Ancestors thought fit to renounce all words inserted in Bulls prejudicial , though to a less degree , than this Oath . However it be 't is a clear case that being made by the Pope none can be more obliged to take it , than to receive his other Decrees , which as we have discourst already , no Nation is oblig'd to do , but by free consent , as far as they find them beneficial to themselves . Wherefore as I said before , allow us Ecclesiastical Ministers , of whose fidelity you may be assured , and we will be careful enough , you may be sure not to run rashly and ca●slesly into Praemunires ; or if we do , the Pope himself cannot blame you if you severely execute those Laws which have been made even by Catholicks . But if you force us to take them upon such terms as we can get them , we are blameless if things happen which we cannot avoid . F. Why but you cannot avoid this . For let us allow you what liberty we will , the Pope never make you Bishops on other terms ; and you believe Bishops cannot be made but by him , or authority derived from him . P. I have already told you I do not believe Bishops are made any where upon those terms , except perhaps in his own territories ; but I am very certain , they need not be any where ; and am farther very certain that in England they should not be , if you would allow us the liberty of acting in the concerns of Religion openly , and without such fear of the Laws that many times we do we know not what our selves . Believe me the Pope is too wise to give occasion to examin whether B●shops may not be made without his intervening . For 't is well known that Bishops were made , and governed the Church a long time , and he never medled in the business . And at this day there are who will by no means use the ordinary stile , Dei & Aposholica sedis gratia , but leave Apostolica sedis quite out . The Recourse , which is now had to him , I believe was occasioned by the frequent abuses which happened in promotions , and which is thought so far from necessary even now , that , if I mistake not , the Canons are still in force , which order that unless he provide for a vacant Sea , within a time limited , and that no long one , the three next Bishops shall make one without more ado . However this collation of Bishopricks by the Pope , is plainly by Canon Law , and subject to the contingencies and nature of other Canons . ● . To let pass at present , what you answer only , and me● thinks unsatisfactorily as before , of your remaining ●il● of your former opinion , so here again of your not believing that Bishops are made any where upon those terms , except perhaps in the Popes own Territories : and not to press you further home on this po●nt . First , by telling you , not with any perhaps , or peradventure , but most certainly , that all Bishops either named , created , confirmed , or consecrated by virtue of the Popes Bulls , not only for his own temporal Territories , but for any where else throughout the world , are made upon those termes ; and that no less certainly , that very Pontificale Romanam which prescribes the aforesaid Oath to be taken by all Arch Bishops , and all Bishops , and all Abbots too , at their consecration , nay and to be taken twice by every Arch Bishop , videlicet . first , at his Consecration , and the second time at his receiving the Pallium ) is no less the Pontifical now in use throughout all Churches acknowledging the Popes Supremacy , than the Roman Breviary , and the Roman Missal are are the only Breviary and Missal now in publick use in the same Churches as it is known they are . Secondly , by assuring you also , there are even at this present , within his Majesties Dominions , nay in one of them , i. e. Ireland , residing now publickly enough , at home in their Diocesses , at least nine Ticular new Bishops , and ●ower also new Arch-Bishops , in all thirteen ( besides two more alive still of the old Nuncio Bishops ) and every one of them created by the Pope , within these four la●st years since 1669 , consecrated according to the prescription of that Roman Pontifical only , and swor● the Popes devoted Bondslaves for ever , by that very Oath ; that Oath , which you please to call it , either of strictest ( however sacrilegious ) fidelity to the Pope , or of most per●idious Treachery against the King and Kingdom ; for it is both ; and you your self will easily believe they do & will hold to it , being they are so far from thinking not only not to renounce all ( nay nor any of ) the words comprised in the Popes respective Bulls , to them made of their several Bishopricks , which be contrary or prejudicial to the King our sovereign Lord and to his Crown , nor only not so much as to renounce any part of those even most notoriously Traiterous promises of the aforesaid Oath , not even so much as virtually , or indirectly , or even implicitely to renounce any part of them by taking either the usual Oaths of Supremacy or Allegiance , or even any other kind of Oath of fidelity to the King , that on the contrary it is manifestly known they have all of them ever since their Consecration , made it their work , not only to suppres● utterly that now so lamed Irish Remonstrance ( or profession of fidelity to the King in all temporal affairs according to the Laws of the Land ) presented to , and accepted by his Majesty in the year 1661 , but also to prosecute with incredible malice for so many years all those other Irish Ecclesiasticks of their Church , who in the said year or any time since had signed ( as only for having signed ) that Formulory , until at last by such wicked ways they have forced most , of these forlorn subjects ( forlorn I call them , because of one side persecuted by the Pope , and of the other not protected by our Laws ) to retract their subscription , and consequently and even under their own hands to renounce utterly their allegiance to the King ; nay even also ( and which must be consequential to disclaim their acknowledgment of his being their King at all in any matter or cause whatsoever , being he cannot be acknowledged King at all , if he be not acknowledged King at least in all civil and temporal affairs according to the Laws of the Land , or in indispensable Obedience and Faith be not acknowledged to be due to him in such matters , from all his Subjects . Thirdly , by desiring you to consider , that of all the Roman Catholicks , by all right and Laws , subject to the King , the great and considerable body indeed , is only the Irish Nation , instructed now and wholy ( as to point of Conscience ) governed by those very Bishops and Arch-Bishops , how apt , as those instructors , so the instructed Irish generally taken , are in the present conjuncture for any kind of bad impressions , from abroad , and consequen●ly for another , fatal revolution at home and what other probable design , then that of preparing them for a new rebellion in due time or fit opportunity at home , cou●d ther● be in those eager persecutions continued so inexorably , scandalously , and incessantly these eleven years past , both by the Court of Rome abroad , and by all its Emissaries at home , although more violently and confidently these four last years by the foresaid new Bishops and Arch-Bishops , and all their underlings and other adherents against so innocent a profession of Allegiance or promise of Obedience in temporal things on●y to the King ? Nay what other probable design could there be ( but that ) of creating in , and commanding home too , and crouding in that Kingdom so many titular Bishops and Arch-Bishops ( besides Vicars Apostolick with Episcopal jurisdiction in so many other of the vacant Sees , and besides too so many Nunciotist Provincials of Regular Orders , and Abbots also ) and that immediately upon the Duke of Ormonds removal from that Government in the year 1669 ? Bishops and Arch-Bishops without Benefice , without Revenue , without Patrimony , or other means to maintain them , but what they get neither by preaching nor praying , but by poling and pilling and fleecing and flaying the poor both Priests and people under their pretended jurisdiction ; though withal , I must confess , devou●ing even already in hopes , those indeed considerable Temporalties which the Protestant Bishops enjoy at present according to Law ; Pluncket of Ardmagh 5000 l. a year old Revenue , lawfully as yet possessed by Margetson of the same See ; Talbot of Dublin thetwo or 3000 l. of that See also , which Boyl or Michael Dubliniensis hath now in legal possession : and so for the rest all over Ireland respectively . Which Revenues , as they were one of the chief causes of the last Rebellion ; think you they may not in all likelyhood be of another yet in our days ? Being those Papal Bishops hold these Royal Prelates to be meer usurpers even of those very temporal revenues , and know themselves are entituled by the Popes Bulls not only to the spiritual Jurisciction but unto all kind of temporals belonging to their respective Sees , and were both created and commanded home to Ireland ( as others , their Predecessors had been in so great number immediately before the last Rebellion in 1641 ) of purpose to try their fortune , or what they might do for playing the old game over again . And in the fourth place , by entreating you moreover to reflect on all the Particulars of the foresaid Oath , in which particulars those Papal Bishops bind themselves with so much solemnity and Sacriledg to be Traitors , certainly at least to a Protestant King , and Kingdome ; unless peradventure you think that neither that neither the Popes Canon Law , nor Council of Trent , nor Bulla Coenae , nor Court of Rome it self . nor these Bishops themselves , hold Protestants to be either Hereticks or Schismaticks : or that you see not how these Bishops bind themselves even to persecute to their power all Hereticks & Schismaticks whatsoever . And how , if they will not be and continue Traitors to the King , they must be at Rome esteemed even perjured Villains , and Rebels too against the Pope , whom they do ( as they are indeed by the tenor of the said Oath obliged to ) maintain to be doubtless the only Supream Lord of Ireland ( yea England , &c ) both in temporals and Spirituals . Now what confidence th●nk you can be , by a Protest n King or people reposed in such men ( even what ever they may chance say , or swear hereafter ) who of their own free accord , nay desire , ambition , and migh●y solicitation , that I may say no more , put an absolute necessity on themselves even at their holy Consecration , either to be Traitors perpetually to the King , or continually perjured to the Pope ? Though otherwise , I must confess , they are by the eternal Law of God and man , and reason also , bound to be so perjured . I say , that to let pass at present all these considerations , and many more too , which no less materially than occasionally might be returned to your answer , videlicet , either that of your remaining still of your former opinion , or that which in effect is the same ) of you not believing that Bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in the Popes own Territories : nor to press you at all with those insoluble arguments , being you not only seem to be an absolute stranger to all affairs in the Kingdom of Ireland , wherein I cannot be so , as having a good part of my estate lying there upon the account of an old Adventurer by the Act of Decimo septimo Caroli primi but you also , and indeed no less plainly then honestly condemn that wicked , Traiterous nay cruel too and barbarous Oath , ( albeit indeed the chief support , nay together with the Profession of Faith , and other Oath also ther● in contained , ordered by Pius the 4th . to be ma●e and sworn both by all whatsoever Bishops , and by all Dignitaries too , yea all Canons , Parsons , Curats , all beneficed Clerkwh●tsoever that have the care of Souls , yea also by all Superiors of Monasteries , Convents , Houses , Places of Regular Orders , ( understand Orders not mendicant ) even those also of Millitary Orders ) the only support of the otherwise tottering Papacy : I say therefore that not to give you any more trouble at present , with those or any other such , however material replies , nor expecting any r●joynder from you to them , what I am to tell you now , is first , my own Ingenuous acknowledgment ; that if but even all the rest you say be true , your Religion as it is , does not make you all stupid . And that for ought I perceive there be honest and sensible men among you . The next is , that notwithstanding all your seeming candor , I cannot thorowly believe you , while you hold the Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . For , if indeed you hold this tenent , who can be perswaded , there is any trust so much as to your solemn promises , much less private Protestations . P. Shall I give you a short answer ? Being you acquit me at present of all the rest . Whoever holds so , hang him up in Gods name ; for no honest man will think him worthy to live . Many of you deal with us both at home and abroad ; I hope you find us deal as fairly as o●her men . Not but that you may have met with Knaves : for there are Knaves and honest men of all professions . But he that cheats one of another Religion , would not spare one of his own I warrant him . As for the truth of wha● I say - , ' t●s easie to try . Cherish with some comfortable moderation , and take into the protection of the Law , such as shall secure you in the man●er you shall think fit , that they truly are so perswaded as I have informed you , ( for I have already to●d you , that every body will be shy to offend the Pop● and not be secure so much as of protection ) But shew indulgence to those who shall renounce the power which you except against , to depose Kings and dispose of Kingdoms , and if the Statutes of Praemunire and the rest , be not enough , find out what more punishment you please , for those who shall receive and obey decrees sent from Rome , without allowance of the State : And for those who refuse to give you such security , treat them w●●● 〈◊〉 severity you please . N. What think you Friend ? to my apprehension this seems but fair . For methinks 't is a preposterous cross piece of Wisdom , to be perpetual , y disquieting our selves with fears . of Papists and not admit them to secure us against those fears . As if we were afraid not to be afraid of them : or as if it were for our t● est to keep up our jealousies , and not suffer them by any means to be taken away . F. I am of the mind ; but yet while people remember Queen Marys days , the Powder Treason , the Massacres in France and Ireland , and Inquisition every where ; things as manifest as horrid , I doubt they will always be afraid ; though I see withall it is somthing hard to make those who live now bear the blame both of past generations , and other Nations . P. You would think it yet harder , if you knew how truly we abhor such things , and how little share Religion had in them . It was the influence , which the severe humour had of King Philip had upon the Counsels of England , which brought that blemish upon Queen Marys days . He was one who thought violent remedies the best , insom●●h that he spared not the Ashes of a man in whose arms his own Father had yielded up his breath . By his inflexible fi●ure upon such courses He lost the Low Countrys , and is become an example to the world , how little severity is proper in matters of Religion . For had the cruelty of those days been effectualy to the ends , for which it was used , you had not been now to upbraid us with it . Religion was not the cause of the Massacres you mention ; but Fear of a powerful faction in France ; and Hate of a forreign and commanding nation in Ireland . In both cases it happened indeed by chance , that there was difference of R●l●gion , but had they been all of the same Religion , the barbarous violence would not have been less cruel . Massacres have been in other p●aces , even in England , and where Hate , or Revenge , or any other violent passion hurries men to them , they spare their own Religion no more than another ▪ Cruelty shows so ugly , that 't is no wonder if those , who are guilty of it , desire to hide it under some handsomer vizard : and Religion being the most specious of all other , if every body take it up that can , and desire to pass rather for Zealous than Barbarous : And ●so poor Religion must be abused to disguise the Fear of France , and Hate of Ireland , and Rebellion of England , ( ●or here t was pretended too , as t will be in all places ) and all this while is a meer pretence , and least of all aim'd at by those who cry loudest out upon it . By the way , if I may speak of Ireland in particular , without the imputation of approving what past there , for in truth I abhor those passages too much to go about so much as to excuse them , I could wish that the Author who mentions the Lord Orrery would h●ve taken some notice too of what is answered by P. W Your Author mentions two hundred thousand throats cut : P. W. affi●ms that my Lord himself bates half the number , and yet confidently avows , and that to the Duke of Ormond who should know , that even that number is exorbitantly vast . And I am sure I have heard from those who are well acquainted with particulars ● and ●●fficient haters of those cruelties , that they defyed all the world to make good the murder of half one hundred thousand , or so much as twenty thousand , or even one thousand slain otherwise than in the Wars ; and where things are so bad of themselves methinks there is no need to make them worse than they are . The Powder Traytors were Papists , 't is true ; and 't is true likewise th●t that there are and allways will be wicked men of all Religions . Had Papists been their Judges they would have scap'd no better than they did . I think there is no more to be said of them , but this , in which I am sure all honest men agree , that the Justice of that Law which past upon them , had more of mercy than they deserv'd . For the In quisition take my word Papists like it no more then you . But you are much out when you think 't is every where . The Pope with all his credit cannot settle it any where but in Italy and Spain , and that with cautions enow too , except just in his own Territories , where he may order things as he pleases . Those Princes who receiveit , conceave it is for their Interest , and 't is by their authority introduc'd among their Subjects , whereof I believe there are many ill satisfyed with it . For us who are Englishmen , I dare answer there is not one who would not oppose it with all his power . F. There is but one thing more which I shall propose to you , and that I decare is more for the satisfaction of my curiosity , then that I believe any great matter in it . But yet why do you not take the Discoursers counsel in one thing , and clear your selves from the imputation of Sacred bloud charg'd home upon you by the answerer of Philanax Anglicus . P. It is an imputation so wild and manifestly groundless , that I do not think any understanding m●n , though never so great an Enemy to Papists , gives any credit to it . Does not all the world which side the Papists took ? Inquiry has been made for the guilt of that sacred bloud , and all England knows they were not Papists who were found guilty . If they had , I wonder who would protect Popish Traytors . If the Rebellion , as that Author would pe●swade us , was rais'd and fomented by the Arts of th● Court of Rome , it is as plain case that the Court of Rome had very little influence upon the Papists here● , who acted quite contrary to their designs . It is undenyable that to design the Kings ruin , and at the same time to fight to preserve him from ruin , are inconsistent and impossible thin●s . To go about seriously to answer such extravagant fancies , is to give them a credit which they otherwise have not , nor can have with any man of judgment . F. For all that he tells very shrewd stories , and such as he undertakes to make good . P. If he can make good his understanding , I think he is no friend to his Country to let Traytors lye conceal'd in it , whom he can discover . Wherefore in behalf of Justice , and Reverence to that sacred Person a Loyalty to his sacred Success●r , I summon him to make good what he says he can , and require at his hands that he spare none , whoever they be , but expose them all to deserved punishment . And I am confident I shall be disavow'd by none of my Religion , if in this particular I disclaim all benefit of the of the Act of Oblivion for any of us . For his stories by your favour they are far from shrewd , He talks of a Priest and confessor who flourisht his sword at the Kings death . This story if I we●l remember , I have seen in one of Mr. Prinn's Books , and he ●athers it upon a dead man , who is sure enough will not rise again to disprove him . But as luck is , he says ' ●was the Queens Confessor And 't is sufficiently known that the Queens Confessor do's not use to leave the person of the Queen , and 't is more than sufficiently known that the Queen at that time was not in England . And were it to purpose , I believe there are yet living those , who can testifie on their knowledge where the Queens Confessor then was . So that 't was something shrewdly done of the Answerer , to leave out that particular , who this Confessor was , by which the forgery of the story may be detected , and involve the matter in a general charge , which none knows how to answer ; otherwise he has said nothing but what every body could see throu●h that read it in Mr. Prinn . Ag●●n he tells of 30. Jesuits betwixt Roan and Diepe , who discovered strange designs to one whom they took to be of their party . And if he or any man ever saw 30 Jesuits upon a R●ad together , or if he did can fancy them to simple , as to discover their designs to men they know not , I am content he believes ev'en what he pleases . Then he talk of the F●yar ●s that Dunkirk , whom he makes to vy with the Jesuits , for the glory of that inhuman action ; and this before an understa●ding Gentl●man . But certain 't was no great sign of understanding ; to broach such a story , when all the world knows there n●ither are , nor ever were any F●ya●s at Dunki●k , English I mean , for str●nge●s , I suppose he will not make so concern'd in the affai●s of our Country . He talks too of our transformations ●nto Indepe●dents to make England depend on the Pope , and fift Monarchyst's to ruine the English Monarchy , and Agitator , and I know not what , I suppose to shew he can quibble ; otherwise every body le●s if we could so easily , and undiscoverably disguise our selves , we were mad if we took not all the shape of Protestants , and so avoided the danger of the Law without more ado . For who should find us out if we could make all the wo●ld believe we were Protestants ? Alas ● you know , and we know too we●l , that a Papist cannot long conceal his Religion . If these be your shrewd stories , your hate to us will let any thing p●ss ; I have not seen any thing that pretends to serious , less significant , and a body would have thought a Church-man should better know what belong to defaming our Neigebour , tha● to expose the credit of a great many innocent men to scandal upon such no-grounds as he mentions . F Nay Sir , I declared before , it was only out of curiosity I spoke of this matter , For I ever thought it very od , you should be lookt upon as friends to the King during all the times of confusion , and for that reason be out of favour with all the several changes of Government , and of a sudden be charged with Annuity to the King when he came in . But I thank you for the information you have given us , and avow fr●ely to you , I shall carry away apprehensions of you very different from what I brought in . For indeed I thought the blind implicite obedience had involv'd you all into stupid and unsufferable errors , and rendred you unfit , not only for protection , but even harbor amongst honest men : But I perceive 't is with you , as with the rest of the world , where there are good and bad of all sorts , And though I have no kindness for your Religion yet I will confess I begin to wish as well as you , that the book which has occasioned all our discourse had not been written ; for methinks 't is hard to charge the follies of some , without distinction upon a●● . P. I cannot tell what the design of the Author was . 'T is in the number of unknowable secrets , and we ought still to judge favourably of things we know not . But his Book seems apt to stir animosities , which if he judge seasonable , I should think not so charitable . Neither can I understand why the moderate share we had in the late Indulgence , should occasion so much Zeal against us , and none against others who were more largly indulged , and are otherwise much and many ways more considerable : Especially , when I consider the Topies he uses , your Religion , says he , is an excellent Religion , and ours full of stupidity : Be it so ; may we not therefore be Permitted to say our prayers in private ? Which is all the Indulgence allow'd us . Sure t is no part of the goodness of your Church to hinder others from being as good as they can ; and the worse our Religion is , the more need we have of praying to make us better . Again let the Pope claim what power he pleases , and that power be as inconvenient as that Gentleman pleases ; private prayer will not therefore be inconvenient , or you receive any harm from what passes in private . Against seditious Doctrines , such as those are declared by Catholicks to be , I hope the Laws takes Order , and they are excepthd by the very declaration . 'T is the name of Abby Lands and Vbby-Lubbers ▪ and the rest of the inconveniences he mentions ; private prayer certainly will never pray them in , and were there any danger of them , we should help you to our powers to keep them out . His Topic of Auricular confession , in my opinion might have been spared in respect to the Church of England , which is far from disaproving such Confession . And however every body must needs see that there are Nations , who use it , as careful of the honours , of their Families every jot as the English , and something more jealous . An abuse may sometimes happen , from which there is nothing so sacred that can always be free but good things are not to be taken away because t is possible they may be abused . At worst I do not see that you are concern'd . If we have a mind to prostitute our Wives and Daughters , how are youth● less safe , or which way endanger'd if we be all Wh●res and Cuckolds . We fell a laughing at that expression , and that laughter broke of our discourse , and soon after our company . I parted as soon as I had payd our Coffee , and I wish you may think your few pence as well bestow d on the Relation as I did mine to hear it . FINIS . 
A35885	----	The salvation of Protestants asserted and defended in opposition to the rash and uncharitable sentence of their eternal damnation pronounc'd against them by the Romish Church / by J.H. Dalhusius ... ; newly done into English. Dalhusius, Johannes H. (Johannes Hermanus) 1689 Approx. 163 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 42 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A35885 Wing D132 ESTC R1473 13172582 ocm 13172582 98308 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A35885) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 98308) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 734:34) The salvation of Protestants asserted and defended in opposition to the rash and uncharitable sentence of their eternal damnation pronounc'd against them by the Romish Church / by J.H. Dalhusius ... ; newly done into English. Dalhusius, Johannes H. (Johannes Hermanus) [19], 64 p. Printed for James Adamson ..., London : 1689. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism. 2006-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-09 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-06 Taryn Hakala Sampled and proofread 2008-06 Taryn Hakala Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Imprimatur , Liber cui Titulus , The Salvation of the Protestants Asserted and Defended , &c. Guil. Needham , R. R. in Christo P. ac D. D. Whihelmo Archiep. Cantuar. a Sacris Domest . Octob. 1. 1688. THE SALVATION OF PROTESTANTS Asserted and Defended , In Opposition to the RASH and UNCHARITABLE SENTENCE OF THEIR Eternal Damnation Pronounc'd against them by the ROMISH CHURCH . By J. H. Dalhusius , Inspector of the Churches , in the County of Weeden , upon the Rhine , &c. Newly done into English . LONDON : Printed for James Adamson , at the Angel and Crown in St. Paul's Church-Yard , 1689. THE PREFACE . Health to the Reader from the Fountain of Health . Courteous Reader , IT is sit thou should'st in the first place be acquainted with the Occasion of the following Discourse ; which was this : From Heddesdorff , where my sacred Calling gave me an Abode for almost five years together , lyes distant , about an hours Riding , that celebrated Abbey in Rommersdorff , belonging to the Fryers called Predemonstrators , who affirm to be Founder of their order , in the Year 1120 , one Norbert , first a Canon in the Church of St. Victor of Santen , near the City of Cleve , which , as they say , laid the first Foundations of Santen ; afterwards Chaplain to Lotharius of Saxony ; and lastly , by the Authority of this Emperor Primate of Germany , that is to say , Archbishop of Magdeburgh , according to the Verses , Anno milleno centeno bis quoque deno , Sub Patre Norberto fundatur Candidus Ordo . They are called Praemonstratenses , or Predemonstrators ( if we may believe the Story ) because the Place for the first building of the Abbey , was shew'd before-hand to Norbert , as he was at his Prayers . And they wear a white Habit , for that the Mother of God brought him a Habit of that colour , as the Norbertines not long since vaunted , thus bespeaking their Founder ; Cruce locus Praemonstratus ubi struas Regiam . Sancta tibi Virgo Mater vestem praebet niveam . Sanctus Augustinus Pater auro praescribit regulam . Where thy Palace thou shouldst build , the Cross the Place doth shew ; The Holy Virgin Mother brings thy Habit white as Snow . Holy Austin doth unfold thy Order's Rule in Gold. The foresaid Norbert held the See of Magdeburgh seven Years and ten Months . He dy'd in the Year of Christ 1134 , upon St. Peter and Paul the Apostles day ; and was buried in the Church of the Blessed Virgin ; where , in the Year 1625 , by the Command of the Emperor Ferdinand II , his Stone Sepulchre was broken open , and his Reliques thence translated in great Pomp to Prague . And so dead Norbert was made the living Saint and Patron of Bohemia . Now in regard the Successors of this Norbert , among which are the Abbots of Rommersdorff , frequently visit our Court of Weeden , and this Village of Heddesdorff , either to look after their Farms and Rents , or as any other Occasions draw them ; and by that means were often wont to be in my Company , I thought it not only Decent , but most Christianlike , at all times and in all places to shew them all the Civility and honest Friendship I could ; and from thence forward hitherto so continu'd to do , as faras lay in my Power . They , on the other side , observing this , made reciprocal Returns of Bounty , Respect and Love ; as often as I went to visit them . Confiding therefore in this mutual Amity and Familiarity , I presum'd , upon the last of December , to send to the present Right Reverend Lord Abbot Charles Wurstius , my kindest Wishes of Prosperity for the ensuing Year . Nevertheless , to this Civility of mine , the next morning , such was the rudeness and barbarity of his Prior , that for Answer he sent me the subsequent Letter , the Contents of which are verbatim as follows . To the Reverend and Learned Mr. John Herman Dalhusius , for the time Curate in Heddesdorf , and Inspector of the County of Weeden , his much respected Friend . Heddesdorff . Rommersdorff . Reverend and much respected Mr. Inspector , BY the Command of my Lord Abbot , now upon business abroad , against the approaching New Year , according to your Calender , I pray for , and heartily wish you a good Beginning , Progress , and a fortunate Couclusion of it . Moreover I have sent you , according to your desire , Oats for your Money , together with your Treatise imparted . to us against the Anabaptistical Heresie ( sufficiently and clearly formerly refuted and condemn'd by the Roman Catholic Church . ) We have perused it , and are pleas'd with your Zeal , but we should have lik'd it much better , if after you had implor'd the Grace of the Holy Ghost , the only Enlightner of obdurate Hearts , you had bin first a Convert to the Lord God , by abjuring the Errors of your Faith , and returning to the Ship , and ( which is the Roman Catholic and only saving Church ) St. Peter's Net ; out of which , by reason of the vast multitude of the Fish , the Authors and first Founders of the Anabaptistical and other Errors , fell down , according to the Catholic Belief , into the profoundest Sea of Hell ; of whom the Ring-leader was Luther : Whose success , I grieve to speak it , so fatal to hundreds of thousands of Souls , encouraging Melancthon , Zuinglius , Oecolampadius , Menno , Calvin , and several others , to the End they might raise to themselves a great Name in the World , and serve their Carnal Desires , coyn'd and forg'd several other Opinions repugnant to Truth , nevertheless condemn'd by the Roman Catholic Church , according to the Custom observ'd from the very beginning of it , as the Authors of them were Excommunicated . I could wish your Reverence would more studiously peruse the Catholic Writers with sounder Judgment , that you would foresee your last End , and while you live , consult the Good of your own Soul , lest after you have run the race of this Mortal Life , in Company with those sublime Doctors , as you stile them in your Treatise against the Anabaptists , you be not only depriv'd of Eternal Felicity , but burn in the Infernal Everlasting Fire . This wholsom Admonition , more precious then Gold and all the Kingdoms of the World , patiently and kindly accept instead of a NEW-YEARS-GIFT , and live eternally the Favourer of him , who is thy Brother most desirous of thy Salvation , Prior for the time . John Gaspar Baldem , Truly I was amaz'd at the sight of such a merciless Monster , that instead of the Roses of desired Friendship , cast before me Baskets of Thorny Bryers ; and rejecting the Salvation of Christ , Pax Vobis , denounc'd a Laborious War against me , yet Glorious for the Truth of the Catholic Evangelical Faith. For now , as the Case stood , my Pen was to be drawn in defence of That , and to wipe off pretended Stains . Wherefore I return'd an Answer , tho' overwhelm'd with the Duties of my Calling during the several Holy-days at that time of the Year ; and within the space of a few days , I finish'd the following Apology for the SALVATION of CHRISTIAN PROTESTANTS , and took care to have it convey'd to the Lord Abbot of Rommersdorff , by means of this short Epistle . Most Reverend , Famous and Learned Lord Abbot , My most honoured Favourer and Friend , YOur Reverend Mr. Prior , in the late absence of your Lordship , sent me a sharp Letter full of thundrings of Eternal Damnation against me and all those , who forsaking your Church , embrace ours . Truly I trembl'd at so rash a Judgment of a prudent Man. But in regard it is lawful at all times and in all places to repel Force by Force , to resist an unjust Aggressor , and to Answer modestly to one that proposes a hard Question . Nay , since it is our Duty to convince Gainsayers , Tit. 1. 9. I could not think it a piece of Injustice to oppose the foresaid Mr. Prior , with the Treatise annex'd , that he may be certainly assur'd , that he has judg'd of our Differences , as a Blind Man doth of Colours , or as the Shoemaker did of the Picture drawn by Apelles . All that I beg of your Reverend Worship is this , That you will be pleas'd so to order the Matter , that this necessary Answer may be deliver'd to his hands ; by which he may understand , that it is the part of a Fool , to Triumph before the Victory ; and of one that is far from a Christian , to Judge so prepost'rously of the Salvation of his Neighbor . I had Answer'd sooner , had I not bin hinder'd by my public Duties , and Transcribing a Copy of this Original Writing , which I intend shall shortly wear a German Cloak , to the end that all People may understand it . Farewel , and continue your Favour to , The most faithful Observer of your Lordship in all good Offices , J. H. Dalhusius . In the mean time , the Lord Abbot having Intelligence of my Design , that he might remove the impending Burd'n from his Prior , the strength of whose Shoulders he did not well understand , was at first unwilling to receive this Answer of mine , till tyr'd with the Importunity of the Messenger , he took it and retir'd into the next Room : Where he did not keep it long , but by his Servant sent it me back the same day , with these words upon the outside Paper ; BY reason of Strangers that are with me , and other necessary Occasions , I have not leisure to Answer the Enclosed as it ought to be ; be pleased therefore to receive back again what you have thought good to write , but what is not convenient for us to read . So may the Reverend Inspector live to the years of Nestor . Your Brother , Charles , Abbot of Rommersdorff . But the Lord Abbot was not so fearful to keep the Answer , as an Abbot of the same Order , of the neighbouring Abbey of Seinen , Gulichius , was daring to accept it with a cheerful Mind , and willing Hand , after I had address'd him in the following short Oration , writing after this manner : Most Reverend , most Famous , and most Learned Lord Abbot , my most esteemed Favourer and Friend . TOward the beginning of the Year , I found my self involv'd in new Contentions , of which the Author and Beginning is the Worshipful Prior in Rommersdorff , whose Name is John Casper Baldem , who in Answer to a Writing , which ought to have bin instead of a pleasing New-Years-Gift , gave me to understand , That my self more especially , and all those whom you unjustly call Vncatholic , are unavoidably subjected to Eternal Damnation . It was but just therefore that I should Answer him , according to the Matter which such a rash Judgment requir'd . Presently I did that which is just ; and this day took care that the Original Writing , at my urgent Request , might be deliver'd to the Prior himself by the Lord Prelate Charles Wirtzius , in hopes the Lord Abbot , as my singular Friend , would have bin so favourable and sincere , as to have deliver'd him the Original Copy which I sent . But Right Reverend Abbot , seeing the Consideration of your most Exquisite Learning , and the Justice of your Friendship contracted four years since , may seem to demand so much , that I should inform you , at least by a Copy , of your business in some measure importing the Honour of your Order ; and that you should not remain Ignorant , according to the Greek Proverb in Homer , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , what Good or Ill is done within our Houses , I thought it necessary to impart to you the Nature of our Quarrel . In the mean time , by the love of Jesus Christ I conjure you , that laying aside inveterate Prejudices , you would peruse this present Treatise ; and afterwards with an Answer first to be communicated to the Brothers in Rommersdorff , to oblige the longing Expectations of him , who am , was , and will be to the end of my Life , Heddesdorff , Jan. 14. 1681. The sincere Observer of Your Worship , in all good Offices , Here we stopt , most Worthy Reader , proceeding no farther ; for the Reverend Abbot of Seinen , Gulichius , has hitherto left me nothing but the desire of a future Answer . But to the end the Church of the Protestants , so often , nay daily , after the manner of Baldem , in the Desks and Pulpits of the Monks , abandon'd to the Infernal Devils , may be furnish'd with farther Arms against such a Customary Damnation ; and that the Innocence and Eternal Salvation of it may be more and more asserted and established with Triumphant Arguments and Reasons , we thought it worth our while to publish this Orthodox Answer , wrested and extorted from us by the Force of a Fire-breathing Quill , and drawn out of the dark shades of my Study . I will not here meddle with any Man , besides the Prior my Antagonist , who because he has spoken what he pleas'd , shall hear perhaps what he will not like so well . I shall only speak of Errors , I shall spare Persons , and , which is the chiefest thing of all , I shall examin and correct all things by the Rule of Christian Charity , and Invincible Truth . In the mean time , Reader , make use of this necessary Answer , to the Advancement of God's Glory , the Establishment of thy own Faih , and the Encrease of the true Catholic Church . May it please the God of Peace to heal these Divisions , that so Christians being recal'd to Truth and Charity , may once more constitute one Sheepfold under one Shepherd Christ , Not Antichrist . Amen . To the Right Reverend the BISHOPS , The Reverend and Learned PASTORS , And , To All and Singular the MEMBERS Of the Reformed English Church ; The AUTHOR wishes The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ , The Love of God the Father , And the Fellowship of the Holy Ghost . Most Honoured Lords , and Dearly Beloved Brethren in Christ , IN like manner as the Jews of old , when they past their little Children through the Fire in Honour of Moloch , that they might not be mov'd with their pitiful Outcries and Lamentations , endeavour'd to deafen and silence those doleful and ruthful Moans and Shrieks of the distressed Infants with variety of Sounds and Noises loud and shrill ; such are the labours of the Followers of the Church of Rome , to leave no Stone unturn'd , to stop the Mouths of the Detectors of their False Doctrins : And in regard they are not able to compass their Ends by the way of Truth , they not only rage with Fire and Sword against the Orthodox , but persecute them with Clamour and Judicial Sentences ; and which is more , fill every corner of the World with their Thundring Writings , to prevent the Voice of Truth from being heard ; nay , which is more then all this , like Ahab himself , they make it their business to throw the guilt of the Troubles which themselves have rais'd , upon the Faithful Preachers of the Truth ; and which is most horrible to hear , make it their glory to condemn them all to the Punishment of Infernal Fires . The same ill Fate has befall'n me . For when it was my late hap to officiate in the Function of Ecclesiastial Overseer , in the County of Weeden , upon the Rhine , one of the Popish Prelates , a certain Neighbour of mine , was not asham'd , instead of a NEW-YEARS-GIFT , to send me word , That not only my Self , but also all the Protestants in general were eternally Damn'd , and to be infallibly Burn'd in the everlasting Fire of Hell. But in regard that by the Testimony of the Apostle , We can do nothing against the Truth , but for the Truth ; and that it is the chief Duty of a Preacher of the Gospel , To hold fast the faithful Word which is according to Doctrin , that he may be able both to Exhort in wholsom Doctrin , and to Convince them that say against it ; I thought it my Duty , not only to Translate into the German Language the Catechism of Controversies , written by Monsieur Moulin , and by that means to arm my Auditors against the daily Attacques of the Monks ; but also to refel such an inconsiderate and unchristianlike Letter , and by this my ANSWER to vindicate the Salvation of the Protestants against so horrible a Condemnation . Wherein I have chiefly made it my business to encounter my Antagonist with the Sword of his own Brethren , as having brought in Aid of our Cause , the Testimonies of the most Famous Popish Doctors against him . Not that I would have it so to be understood however , as if the Suffrages of Men that wander in the Paths of Error , were necessary for the support of our Doctrin , but only that as vanquish'd Enemies , following the Triumphal Chariot of Truth , their Necks laden with Chains , and compell'd to submit to the Victress , they might give all the World an unquestionable Testimony of her Conquest ; or else , that if after the first Rout , they should adventure to make a second Attempt upon her , being by this Stratagem set together by the Ears one among another , and distracted in their Minds , or at least in their Sentences , they might by mutually wounding each other , destroy themselves ; thereby affording us this pleasing Spectacle , as if the Lord had set every Man's Sword upon his Neighbor throughout the Host ; and had so brought it to pass , that they should kill one another with the Weapons which they had made themselves ; and that the Heads of these new Goliah's should be cut off with the Swords which they had girt upon their own Loyns . For thus we see that the Papists in many things are like Samson's Foxes , having their Tails in such a manner ty'd together to set on Fire , that with their Heads they draw two contrary Ways ; or else like certain Monsters , whose Bodies are not united together till about the Navil or the Belly . But as Fawning creates Friends , and Truth begets Hatred ; so neither could I avoid the Hatred and Persecution of the Papists . For their Revenge transported them to that degree , that they sent several Soldiers to apprehend me , and to have punish'd me with eternal Captivity ; who because they could not overtake me flying away on Horseback , discharg'd two Pistols at me , to have kill'd me outright ; but in vain , while God in his Mercy protected me . Constrain'd therefore by these and other Persecutions , and continual way-layings of my life , some Weeks ago I threw my self into the Bosom of your Church , that under your Protection I might live in more safety ; and so soon as opportunity should permit , that I might be ready to employ the utmost of my Abilities and Sedulity in your Service . But in regard , that according to the Proverb , There is no Desire of that which is to Men Unknown , I thought it might be worth my while most devoutly and humbly to offer and dedicate this my Answer to all and singular both Shepherds and Sheep , High and Mean , Ecclesiastics and Laity , Magistrates and Subjects , as having no other means to excite and kindle in your Hearts , when once made known to your Christian Pity , so much of generous Goodness , as to receive me into the Arms of your Charity , and make me Partaker of your Labors . Accept , I beseech ye therefore , most Honourable Patrons , with courteous Mind and Hand , this little Treatise of mine ; and open to me the doors of your Benevolence ; and what you would should be done to your selves in the same case , that do to me . Be not weary in well doing , for in due season ye shall reap , if ye faint not . While we have therefore time , let us do good unto all Men , especially unto them that be of the houshold of Faith. In the mean time , our Merciful God , who has begun a good work in you , will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ ; that being fill'd with the fruits of righteousness , ye may speak the Word of God without fear , and continue in one Spirit , and one Soul , holding together in the defence of the Faith of the Gospel ; and in nothing fearing your Adversaries , which is to them a Token of Perdition , but to you of Salvation , and that of God. For to you it is given for Christ , not only this , that ye believe in him , but also this , that ye suffer for his sake . Having the same sight which ye saw in me , and now hear in me . My Brethren , count it all joy , when ye fall in diverse temptations . For blessed is the Man who endureth temptation , because that when he is try'd , he shall receive the Crown of Life , which the Lord has promis'd to those that love him . May it please the same Almighty God , That fighting a good fight , ye may hold Faith and a good Conscience , which some having put away , as concerning Faith , have made Shipwrack . So shall ye remain faithful unto death , and a Crown of Life shall be given unto you . So that when the time of your dissolution is at hand , you may gladly and truly say , We have fought a good Fight , We have fulfilled our Course , We have kept the Faith. Henceforth there is laid up for us a Crown of Righteousness , whicb the Lord , the Righteous Judge , shall give at that day ; and not only to us , but to them that have lov'd his appearing . Now unto the King Everlasting , Incorruptible , Invisible ; To God only Wise , be Honour and Glory for ever and ever , Amen . So farewel , most Honoured Patrons , and benignly favour , Your most Humble Servant And Exile , J. H. Dalhusius . THE SALVATION OF PROTESTANTS Asserted and Defended , &c. The Salvation of Body and Soul comes from one Fountain of Salvation , which is Jesus Christ , God blessed for ever , Amen . Reverend and most Learned Mr. Prior , THere has been an idle report spread up and down , that the Reverend Abbot of the Monastry of Seinen propos'd to me several things concerning the Catholic Religion , if not in Writing , yet by Word of Mouth , which I either am or was not able to resolve . From which trifle of a Report , those of your Party have thought to gain a Petty Lawrel Wreath ; and those of our side have been in a deep Suspence , not knowing what was done , or what was to be done ; for that Fame is as well an obstinate Retainer of what is feign'd and bad , as a Divulger of Truth . I am not willing to believe that the Prelate aforesaid is the Father of this Abortive Birth , in regard that since a Non-Entity can have no Accidents , He could never in the Truth of the Matter divulge , that he propounded any thing to me to be resolv'd , when assuredly I remember it no more then I do an Act that never was done . This indeed is true , that about three years since , returning from the Visitation of the Church of Grentzhausen , and going into the Monastery in my road , at what time my Fellow-Brethren , Mr. William Simonis , and Mr. Arnold Schnabel , the one Pastor of the Church of Alsbach , the other of Ruchroeten , both most vigilant and learned Persons were with me , he read to us many and various Manuscripts taken out of our Doctors , and Arguments against those Authors , and highly vaunted them to be invincible ; but we Three so well at that time defended the Truth , that your Party had no reason to boast of Advantage . But now that the Reverend Prior not only extends his Prayers for my Health , but also heartily wishes and desires , That after I had adjur'd and forsaken my Religion , I should consult the good of my Soul , by returning to Peter 's Nett , which is the Roman and only Soul-saving Church ; lest after I had finished this life , I should not only be deprived of Eternal Felicity , but with the rest of my Doctors burn in the Everlasting Fire of Hell ; truly as upon the sight of the first , I return him many Thanks ; so in respect of the latter , I cannot forbear but that out of Duty and Conscience , and for the love of Truth , I must Answer as follows , that I may not be again reproach'd to have thrown away my Buckler when the Duel was offered me , which was infamous among the Romans , or to have sought for Safety by ignominious Flight . And I sincerely and constantly adjure you , Reverend Prior , together with your Companions , that with impartial Minds , and laying aside all fore-conceived Opinions , you would vouchsafe to read and weigh what shall be here written . Therefore that I may hasten to the thing it self , the whole Hinge of your Epistle turns upon this , to persuade me that the Romanists ( give me leave to call you so throughout this Writing ) are only worthy and fit to obtain Salvation : On the other side , that all the Protestants are damn'd , nay , irrevocably consign'd to a sad Eternity . Is not this your Thesis ? Nay , most certainly it is . It will be my part therefore to Prove and Assert the Salvation of the Protestants , and to Examin and Correct your rash Judgment by the Rule of Charity , with regard however to the Civil Friendship of both ; more especially of that which is between me and your most reverend and famous Master , Charles Wertzius , whom I here name with Honor. I wish he had bin at home ; for then you would not have presum'd to have dealt so disingeniously by me . But the Proverb says , When the Cat is gone abroad , the Mice play . But to the purpose . There is nothing which the sacred Scriptures more frequently recommend to us then Charity . This is that sacred and perpetual Fire , which it behoves us more religiously to keep burning , then that which formerly was intrusted with the Vestals in Rome , or with the Priests in the Temple of God. For Charity ( saith St. Paul ) is the bond of perfection , Col. 3. 14. The end of the Commandment , 1 Tim. 1. 5. Nay , The fulfilling of the whole Law , Rom. 13. 10. And if a Comparison should be made between the three Theological Vertues , there is no question but the Palm would be given to Charity as the Principal , 1 Cor. 13. 13. Faith represents the Porch of the Temple , in regard it holds forth to us the Propitiation of our Sins upon the Altar of the Cross . Hope represents the Holy Place , as being that which shines out to us with the sevenfold Lamp of Evangelical Promises , in certain Expectation of Eternal Beatitude . But Charity representing the Holy of Holies , and glittering on every side with pure Gold , is only worthy to be the Seat of the Deity ; for as God is Love , 1 Job . 4. 16. so the Empyrean Seat , and the fiery Throne of Charity in our Minds , have a mutual Resemblance . Now there may be numbred several Duties of this Christian Charity , the Queenof all Vertues , as well toward God as toward our Neighbor . Toward God , there are two sorts of Duties incumbent upon every Man by the Command of Charity ; of which some are Positive , others Negative . By the one a Christian is oblig'd to Exercise Benevolence and Bounty toward his Neighbor , as much as in him lyes , affectionately and effectually in Word and Deed. By the other he is deterr'd from all manner of Ill-will , and doing Injury to his Brother , not only directly by hurting him , but also indirectly by throwing Scandals upon him ; not only openly and outwardly with Hand or Tongue , but also covertly and inwardly , by bearing Malice , Envy , Hatred , or by unjust Suspicions and rash Censures , as St. Paul witnesses , 1 Cor. 13. 5. For Charity thinks no evil , suffers all things , believes all things , hopes all things , endures all things . More particularly the Scripture , in more places then one , condemns rash Judgments , by which Men , for the most part violating the Laws either of Divine Truth or Christian Charity , judge evilly of the Actions or Persons of their Brethren . To which purpose that Sentence of our Savior is express and positive , Mat. 7. 1. Judge not , lest ye be judged . Such were the Judgments of the Pharisees formerly concerning others ; so that they lookt upon all others beside themselves as Ideots , prophane and polluted Sinners . And at this day , there is nothing more frequent among Men , then these unjust Censures , who are often wont to receive with the Left-hand , what is reach'd forth with the Right ; and to interpret all things in the worst sense , according to the variety of their Passions . For Example ; if any Man grows Rich through the blessing of God , he is adjudg'd to have acquir'd those Riches by evil means : If he fall suddenly into extreme Calamity , this is presently deem'd to befal him by the secret Judgment of God revenging his secret Transgressions : If any one be averse to Superstition , he is accounted Profane : If he professes Piety , he is said to be an Hypocrite : If Liberal , he is taxed for a Prodigal : If Frugal , he must be Covetous : If Prudent , he is a Coward : If Magnanimous and Sedate in the midst of the raging Waves , he is pronounced Rash and Bold . Such is that Judgment of yours , most Learned Mr. Prior , which you give in your Letters of Me and all the Protestants , rather with a blind Fury , then a quick Understanding : That is to say , that we are all Damn'd to Eternity ; and that unless we return to Peter's Ship , by submitting our selves to the Pope , we are adjudg'd in this Life to the Torments of Hell. You are not the only Person who lye under this Mistake , for there are not wanting among ye those that in their Harangues to the People , in affrighting terms do pawn their own Salvation upon it , that all the Protestants are Damn'd . By vertue of which precipitate Condemnation , the hatred of many is kindled against us ; for it is a difficult matter to love those whom they believe to be so hated of God , that they are already destin'd to the Flames of Hell : And in regard there is but little difference between a Damn'd Person and the Devil , it is but rational that they should abhor such Persons as the Devil , who by an anticipated Sentence are already numbred among the Damn'd . Nay , those of your Party , who either out of Duty or Inclination are better and more tenderly affected towards us , are wont to look upon us with Horror and a kind of Commiseration , saying , That they are very sorry that Men of such excellent Endowments , and otherwise born to Vertue , should be out of the way of Salvation , and willingly throw themselves headlong into Hell. For these Reasons therefore I thought it necessary to examin by the Rule of Charity and Truth this Judgment so frequently given and inculcated against us ; to the end that if it be found to be rash and prohibited by the Sentence of Christ , not only you , Mr. Prior , may be brought to remit somewhat of your rigor , and blush at what you have so unjustly written , but that we our selves also slighting and contemning this preposterous Judgment , may continue cheerful and constant in the Truth of God , saying to our Prior , and such like supercilious Censurers as He , what St. Paul said to the Corinthians , 1 Cor. 4. 3. With us it is a very small thing that we should be judged of you , or of mans judgment . It is better to be condemn'd by a Physitian , then a Judge ; by Men , then by God. Wherefore as no Man can be a Judge in his own Cause , it is not for the Accuser to pass Sentence upon the Guilty : So that it might be sufficient to plead in Opposition to this unjust Judgment , that Mr. Prior would sit Judge in his own proper Cause ; and that being carried away with various Affections , he never regarded what was true and honest , but what was profitable and convenient . This Judgment certainly is not to be imputed to Equity and pure Reason , but to Anger and Hatred . As Parents are wont to love their Children tho' Maim'd and Lame , so your Doctors are so preposterously devoted to their own pre-conceived Opinions , that they hate all Men who go about to impugn or correct them ; and that so much the more , by how much the greater force they find in the same Opinions to establish their Authority in the World , and to encrease and preserve their Earthly Riches . The Condition of the Protestants in this respect , resembles the Condition of our Savior , while he was upon the Earth . For because he oppos'd himself against the Corruptions both of Manners and Doctrin which abounded in the Church , and propounded a sort of Justice quite different from the Pharisaical Pride , and rejecting unwritten Traditions , labour'd to cleanse the House of God , and restore all things to the Primitive Fountains of Purity and Truth ; therefore he was accounted a Samaritan , and proclaim'd a Seditious Person , a Demoniac , a Blasphemer , Turbulent , and an Innovator . The same things befal the Reformed ; for therefore are they unjustly condemn'd , because they desire that the Temple may be cleans'd , that Abuses and Corruptions may be reform'd , which Time , Ambition , Avarice , Negligence , Ignorance , and other Pests have brought into the Church ; that the Justice of our Savior may be fully acknowledg'd ; that unprofitable , intolerable and superstitious Traditions may be cut off , and all things , as much as may be , restor'd to the Primitive state of the Church , and the Exemplar and Pattern of purest Antiquity . And indeed if you would but lay aside your Affections , and give never so little attention to the Word of God , you would there find how unlawful 't is for you to give any such Judgment upon Christians , and to devote them to Maledictions whom Christ has redeemed with his Blood , whose Faith is conformable to the Scripture , and who repose their whole Confidence in the Grace and Mercy of God , and the Merits and Cross of Christ . Certainly the Point of Eternal Salvation is of a higher Nature then to be wrested away by little blind miserable Animals to their Tribunal ; or that any Man should presume to pronounce any thing concerning it , beyond the revealed Will of God. For God has assum'd it to himself , his Sentence is to be expected , and not to be anticipated by our Judgment , For what Mortal was ever privy to his Secrets , or whom did he ever permit the perusal of the Book of Life , and the Catalogue of Election ? St. James , c. 4. of his Epistle , v. 11 , 12. positively admonishes us , to condemn that Law which condemns his Brother , and that he who judges of the Law , is not a Doer of the Law , but a Judge . And that Men for this reason should not invade the Laws of God , he adds , There is one Lawgiver , who is able both to save and to destroy ; who art thou shat judgest another ? Excellent also was the saying of the Ethnic Poet ; Those things which it concerns us not to know , let us not take care to believe ; let Secret things be left to God. Many are number'd among Wolves in this World , whom Christ will joyn to his Sheep at the last Judgment . Many who are weigh'd in the Ballance of human Censure , are rejected as Brass , which the Touch-stone of Divine Judgment will demonstrate to have bin fine Gold. First therefore I would fain know of you , Mr. Prior , upon what ground you come to be more certain of the Damnation of others , then of your own Salvation . For if it be a piece of Arrogance as you commonly teach against us , for any Man to assure himself that he is the Son of God , and Heir of Heaven , certainly it must be a great piece of rashness to determin as to others , that they are the Sons of Wrath and Hell. I rather am of Opinion , that the Religion of the Protestants is so far from being an Obstacle to Salvation , that it rather serves in a high measure to promote Salvation . I confess , there is no hope of Salvation beyond the Pale of Christian Religion ; so that Salvation cannot be obtained in the Communion of Ethnics , Mahometans and Jews ; no , not in the Society of those who retaining the Name of Christ , nevertheless subvert the Foundation of Salvation , such as formerly were the Ebionites , Borborites , Manichaeans , Arrians , and at this day the Socinians ; or if there be or were any other such like Monsters in Religion . But in our Religion , what is there to be discover'd that subverts the Fundamental Articles of Christianity , but rather , on the other side , what serves in a high degree to support them ? Does it not admit the Scriptures of the old and New Testament to be of Divine Inspiration , and the Three more solemn Creeds , the Apostolic , Athanasian and Nicene , together with the Four Oeconomic Councils of Nicaea , Chalcedon , Ephesus and Constantinople ? Does it not adore in truth One God , Three in One , the Father , Son and Holy Ghost ? Does it not acknowledg one Christ , God and Man , for the Mediator between God and Men , the Redeemer of Souls , a Prophet , Priest , and King of the Church ? Does it teach any thing concerning God , which is repugnant to his Majesty , his Glory , and his Power ? Can it be accused of any Opinion that subverts good Manners , or that sins against the Law of God or public Honesty ? The aim of Religion is to inform Men how to live well and bear Death with confidence , to the end that after they have lived in the fear of God , they may die in his favour . And this is that which a Christian may easily attain in our Religion ; for it most powerfully excites a faithful Man to fear God and love his Neighbor . It propounds no Article of Faith from whence various Corollaries may not be deduc'd for performance of our Duties , and Reformation of our Lives ; and administers most sweet and those most effectnal Consolations to a Christian against the assaults of all Temptations , and Death particularly ; advancing the Certainty of Redemption , through Christ , into the number of the Sons of God , by his Merit and Favour ; so that they themselves , who deal so rigorously by us , so often as any one is to be prepar'd for Death , insensibly come over to our side , and tacitly renounce their own Opinions , as is to be seen in Conson . Agoniz . written by Viguerrus . For then they do not comsort the dying Person with heaps of his own proper Merits , but exhort him to put all his hope and confidence in the Mercy of God , and the Satisfaction of Christ . Nor do they scare their doubtful Consciences with the Terror of Purgatory , but comfort it with the hopes of soon obtaining Everlasting Rest ; and admonish the sick Person often to repeat the words of David , Into thy hands I commend my Spirit . The Bishop of Toledo is reported to have written to the Pope , that the Emperor Charles V , declar'd upon his Death-bed , that he plac'd all the Hopes of his Salvation in one Redeemer and Saviour Jesus Christ , and in his Merits , adding withal , that he look'd upon Luther's Opinion concerning Justification , to be very true . To which , as the Famous John Crocius , my Tutor formerly at Marpurgh , reports in his Anti-Wigelius , p. 451. they make the Pope to return this Answer ; That he would not celebrate his Funeral Obsequies , because he held with Luther in such a Principal Point of Religion . Maximilian II , when the Bishop of Naples D. Lambert Gruterus came to him , then lying under the Pangs of Death , would not suffer him to be admitted , but upon promise first , That he would talk of nothing else , but of the Merits of Christ , his Blood and S●eat ; The Bishop was as good as his word , and made a long Oration concerning the Merits of Christ full of Consolation ; and when the Emperor was ask'd , Whether he intended to die in that Faith ? He made Answer , I shall do no otherwise : As Crato relates in his Funeral-Oration ; and Chytraeus Chron. Sax. The Head and Summ of Christian Religion , is Christ Crucify'd , 1 Cor. 2. 2. Other Foundation can no Man lay then that which is laid , which is Jesus Christ , 1 Cor. 3. 11. So that for the obtaining of Salvation , there is no other Rule of Faith to be acknowledg'd then the Word of Christ resounding in Scriptures ; nor any other Merit to be pleaded before God , but his Death ; nor any other Purgatory but his Blood ; nor any other Propitiatory Sacrifice for our Sins , but that which he offer'd once upon the Cross ; nor any other Head of the Church , nor any other Mediator with God , but Himself . Behold the Foundations of our Faith : Why should you deny us Eternal Salvation ? Moreover it would be very cruel , and altogether repugnant to Christians , to condemn to the Torments of Hell so many Myriads of Christians , living in the East , under the Patriarchs of Antioch , Alexandria , Jerusalem and Constantinople ; The Georgians , Armenians , Abissines , Egyptians , Greeks , whose Churches the Apostles founded , Martyrs water'd with their Blood , the most Learned of the Fathers cultivated with their Instructions , so many Councils honour'd with their Decisions , and which are able to vye their Titles of Antiquity and Succession with Rome it self . Now if the way to Salvation is not to be deny'd to these Christians dispers'd over the East , and retaining the Foundations of Christianity , tho' believing nothing of the Fire of Purgatory , the Pomp of Papal Dignity , Transubstantiation of the Bread into the Body of Christ , Communion under One Kind , the Use of Latin or a Foreign Tongue in Publick Worship , the necessary Celibacy of the Ministry , Auricular Confession , and the like ; why may not Salvation be obtain'd in the Society of the Reformed Churches , which are gather'd to Christ in the West , tho as to those Points they have renounc'd the Roman Communion ? Then there is another thing which you Romanists confess of your own accords , that our Church Reform'd according to the Word of God ; leads all the Members of its Communion directly to Christ ; that they may obtain Salvation in him and by him ; that they feed the starving Consciences with the Spiritual Bread of the Divine Word , and Sacramental Eucharist , call Sinners to Repentance , and recommend to every one Piety towards God , and Charity towards our Neighbor . There is also another thing which they acknowledge , that our Reformed Church both has and administers the true Baptism of Christ , and by means of that , Spiritually begets Sinners which are to be Heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven ; seeing that by their own Confession , our Children dying after Baptism receiv'd in our Churches , ascend to Joys Celestial , as may be collected from Bellarmin , lib. 1. de Bapt. cap. 11. In the mean time , I beseech you , Venerable Sir , can you tell me what Motives they were that lead you headlong into so absurd a Precipice ? Or what , I beseech you , were the Impulsive Causes and Pregnant Reasons of so preposterous and unseasonable a Damning of our Souls ? If you are Ignorant , as I shrewdly conjecture you are , I will tell you what they are from your own Doctors , who have written variously concerning this Question , that is to say , That we are therefore to be Damn'd , and are Damn'd to all Eternity . First , Because we are guilty of Blasphemy against the Omnipotency of God , in the business of the Eucharist . Secondly , Because we make God the Author of Sin. Thirdly , Because we fasten Despair upon Christ , when he was upon the Cross . Fourthly , Because we are injurious to the Virgin Mary and the Saints . Fifthly , Because we oppose Chastity , Sobriety , Mortification , Good Works , the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper , and every pious Institution . And Sixthly , Because we are Heretics , or at least , Seventhly , Schismatics . These are the Imputations which I find in Bellarmin , Becanus , Tirinus and Stapleton , all Jesuites , the great Props of your Cause , and the Pillars of this cruel Sentence . Nevertheless know , Mr. Prior , that these Accusations are no more then mere Imaginations , and feigned Dreams , which have no real Foundation ; as I shall with all possible brevity demonstrate in order , both for your own and the sake of others ; and if these Pretences of yours be found to be groundless and unreasonable , there needs no more to convince you of your Error , and your stragling from Truth and Charity . First therefore we are accused , as if we would limit Divine Omnipotence ; and that we plainly deny it , while we assert , that it is impossible for the Bread to be Transubstantiated into the Body , or that any Body should be actually in divers places ; or that Accidents should subsist without a Subject ; or that there should be some Bodies allow'd of that fill no space . But far be it from us to limit the infinite Pôwer of the most Infinite , or in the least to call it in question . We are ready with our Blood to subscribe to the Apostles Creed , in the first Article whereof we profess to believe in God the Father Almighty , Maker of Heaven and Earth . And this we generally add for a Conclusion to our ordinary Prayers ; For thine is the Kingdom , the Power and the Glory , for ever and ever , Mat. 6. 13. Then also our Saviour taught us , That those things are Easie and Possible with God , which seem to Men Impossible . Let him be Anathema , that calls in question the Power os the most High ; who existing of himself , because , according to the common Axiom , There is nothing in God which is not God ; it is impossible for him to be limited or bounded . And this Infinity we could as certainly believe in the Sacrament of the Eucharist , in reference to the destruction of the Bread , and substituting the Body of Christ in the room of it , as it is certain and perspicuous from the Word of God , that our Bodies should rise at the Day of Judgment ; our Faith would be directed by the Cynosure of Divine Will ; nor can we doubt but that God both could and would have done it , had he so decreed the thing to be done , as profitable and necessary for our Salvation . But as to this , we find , First , That those Sacred Mysteries which are distributed to us from the Table of the Lord , are and remain both in Substance and Name what they were , as to the Substance , before the Consecration . Nor need we to produce the Testimony of Senses for it ; our Seeing , Tasting , Feeling , Smelling , which according to the Opinion of certain Philosophers , are rarely deceiv'd about their proper Objects ; the Authority of St. Paul is sufficient , and beyond all Objection ; 1 Cor. 10. 16. The Cup of Blessing which we bless , is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ ? The Bread which we break , is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? And then again , 1 Cor. 11. 28. Let a man examin himself , and so let him eat of this Bread , and drink of this Cup. Secondly , We find that the eating of his Flesh , and the drinking his Blood , is recommended to us by Christ , Joh. 6. But there , there is nothing spoken of Oral feeding , by which the Body of Christ is actually swallowed into our Bodies ; but he speaks of Spiritual and Mystic Eating , by which he remains in us , and we in him ; which does not come to pass by Chewing , but by Believing ; not in swallowing down into the Stomach , but by receiving him with the Heart & with Faith , as Christ in the same place clearly and frequently explains himself ; as when he says , ver . 35. He that cometh to me , shall never hunger , and he that believeth on me , shall never thirst . And thus all Antiquity has expounded this Context of St. John. And several Testimonies might be produc'd of St. Austin alone , among all the rest of the Fathers , to the same purpose ; whose following words were taken out of his Commentaries upon St. John by Gratian. Distinct . 2. Consil . Can. 47. Why dost thou make ready thy Teeth and Belly ? believe , and thou hast eaten : For to believe in him , is the same as to eat the living Bread ; who believes in him , eats him , is invisibly fed , because he invisibly grows again . Now that we ought to understand the words of Christ in this place of Mystical and Spiritual Feeding , the constant Rule propos'd by the same Father , constrains us , l. 3. de Doctrin . Christ . c. 16. If the Scripture ( saith he ) seems to command an unlawful and wicked act , and to forbid a profitable and good deed , then it is Figurative . Vnless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man , and drink his Blood , you shall not have Life within you . Here it seems to command a wicked Act. Therefore it is a Figure , commanding it s to communicate the Passion of our Saviour , and to remember profitably and sweetly that his Flesh was crucified and wounded for our sakes . But I abstain for the nonce from farther Explication of this Matter , unless occasion shall be given of vindicating this Epistle by a Reply . In the mean time , the sole Omnipotency of God is usually oppos'd to so many effectual Arguments , by which we are constrained to assent to the Opinion of the Antients concerning the Sacrament , as if God were bound to display his Power to do whatever Men fancy to themselves ; or that we must be said to Blaspheme his Omnipotence , because we do not consent to their Dreams and Miracles ; whereas if those new and unprofitable Opinions were approv'd by the assent of the Divine Will , we should never meddle to contradict this Argument taken from God's Omnipotency . But since there is nothing that can be produc'd in their favour out of the Testament of God ; but on the contrary , so many Demonstrations fighting against them , we dare pesume to descend to the Examination of this Argument ; Not to limit the Omnipotence of God , but to shew that those things that you Romanists would defend by virtue of that , are of the number of those things which fall not under the Power of God , not through Impotency or want of Strength , but through the Excellency and Perfection of his Power . For tho' God be Omnipotent , yet he can neither Walk , nor Sleep , nor Die ; for that these things would contradict the Perfection of his Eslence . In this sense , the Scripture testifies that God cannot lye , nor deny himself . Hence it comes to pass , that tho' the Divine Power extends it self to Infinity , yet is it agreed among all Christians , that God cannot do those things which imply Contradiction , because he cannot lye nor deny himself . To this Truth your Bellarmin gives his Assent , lib. 3. de Euch. and all your Doctors subscribe to his Opinion . And upon this Ground we dispute with you , alledging , I. That it is impossible that Accidents should exist without any Subject ; in regard it is Essential to all Accidents to inhere in their Subjects . Insomuch , that by virtue of that inherence it is , that an Accident is distinguish'd from Substance . Nor can any Accident be fancy'd without some Subject to which it may adhere , and by which it may be supported ; but that some such Accident must be fancy'd which is no longer an Accident , which implies a Contradiction . II. It is impossible that the Body of Christ sholud be in infinite places remotely distant one from another , in Earth , tho' he do not descend from Heaven , whether nevertheless he ascended after his Resurrection ; as it could not then have bin that he should have bin in Heaven , unless he had locally and visibly ascended thither from the Earth . III. It cannot be that any Body should be any where actually and properly , but that it must be in the same place corporeally and locally ; because the manner of being somewhere , must correspond with the manner of being simply , which is the proper manner of the thing in dispute : And as a Spirit cannot be any where actually present , unless definitely and spiritually ; so neither can a Body be any where actually present , but corporeally and circumscrib'dly ; for if it were actually in any place where it were not corporeally , then it would cease to be a Body . IV. It cannot be that the Body of Christ should at the same moment of time , be visible , palpable and circumscrib'd in Heaven , and in infinite places of the Earth , after another manner invisible , impalpable , uncircumscrib'd , without Extension , and Latent under a Point . V. It is impossible that any singular or individual Thing should be multiply'd in infinite places , and yet the Singularity and Individuality remain entire , without having its Unity destroy'd by that multiplication . VI. It is impossible that the Thing contain'd , should be greater then the Thing containing : And that the Body of Christ should lye hid under a small Morsel of Bread , or be streightned within the Bowels of a Mouse , in the same stature as he had when he was upon the Cross . These and such like Miracles as these , all sprouting out of the Opinion of Transubstantiation , we oppose as Impossibilities ; not that God wants Power , but because these things imply a Contradiction . And therefore we cannot be accused of any Blasphemy against Divine Omnipotency . About Three hundred years ago flourish'd Durandus . de Sancto Portiano , Bishop of Meaux , of the Dominican Order , of great repute among the Scholastics , and one that Rome never yet declar'd a Heretic . He affirms Contradictory Penetration of Dimensions to be impossible , by means of which two Bodies shall be able to possess one and the same place ; and argues against whatever has bin produc'd to the contrary , tho' taken from the Nativity of Christ , his Ent●ance among the Disciples , the Doors being shut , and his Ascent into Heaven ; affirming , That it is much more just and rational to say , that the Creature gave way to the Creator ; so that the Heavens if they were solid , parted asunder , to give free passage to their Lord ; and that the Doors of the House where the Disciples met , miraculously open'd before him , that so he might more easily come to them ; and that the Womb of the Virgin was divinely dilated to facilitate his Nativity ; then that they should oblige the Creator to penetrate other Bodies , and so to receive a Law from their Nature , rather then to give it Them. All which Expositions of Durandus may be defended and maintain'd out of the Word of God , Psal . 14. 7 , 9. The Gates of Heaven are commanded to lift up their Heads , that is , to fly open to Christ ready to ascend into Heaven , then under the name of the King of Glory entring in . Joh. 20. 26. It is not said that Christ came to his Disciples through the Doors shut , but at what time the Doors were shut , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Now suppose they might be open'd to him by the Ministry of Angels , , as the Prison-Doors flew open to Peter , Act. 12. 10. And as Mat. 28. 2. the Angel descended from Heaven which remov'd the Stone laid upon the Sepulchre . Luke 2. 23. relates , That the Blessed Virgin brought her Offering to Jerusalem , and that there Christ stood before the Lord ; As it is written in the Law of the Lord , That every Male opening the Womb , shall be called holy to the Lord. By which Law the Holy Virgin had not bin oblig'd , unless Christ at his Birth had open'd her Womb : Neither is it any Obstacle to her perpetual Virginity , in regard she never knew Man ; and for that this Gate through which the Lord of Hosts past , according to the saying of Ezekiel , c. 44. 2. remain'd from that time always constantly shut . Now if the Crime of Blasphemy were never imputed to Durandus , nor any of his Followers , for these seeming attacks upon Divine Omnipotency , why are we reproach'd as Enemies of the same Omnipotency , for only averring the same things ? Thomas Aquinas , listed among the number of the Saints , vulgarly call'd the Angelical Doctor , and to whom they feign that the Statue of a Crucifix should speak these words at Naples ; Thou hast written well concerning me , what Reward dos̄t thou expect ? This Aquinas , Part 3. Quest . 76. almost quite through the whole Question , affirms it impossible and contradictory for the same Body to be locally and circumscrib'dly in two several places ; and alledges , That the Glorious Body it self of our Saviour , cannot be locally , visibly and circumscrib'dly but in one only place ; That in this manner now he is not in any other place then in Heaven ; That he never is moveable and visible in the Eucharist , or after any other manner then only Sacramentally . And whereas it has bin said , that he has bin seen in this most August Sacrament , under the Form of a Boy , or of Flesh , or of Blood ; That it was neither the Body nor the Substance of Christ . Now if Thomas could not persuade himself , that it was possible for the Body of Christ to be locally in two different places , with whom Vasques the Jesuite , and all the rest at this Time agree ; and which is more , if he did not believe that that which was sometimes said to be seen in the Eucharist , was the Body and Substance of Christ , or prov'd the local Presence of his Body in the Sacrament ; must we be call'd Blasphemers who are of the same Belief , and consequently assert , that the same Body cannot be actually present in two different places , in regard the actual Presence of any Body of necessity must be Corporeal , Local and Circumscrib'd ? 'T is true , I acknowledg a certain Sacramental Presence in the Eucharist , but different from that which Thomas has invented ; not Physical and Real , but Moral and Significative , which is agreeable to the Being and Nature of the Sacrament ; as also Super-physical and Real through Faith , in Vertue and Operation ; which does not require a Physical and Real Presence in the Substance either of the Person or of the Thing , Joh. 8. 56. 1 Cor. 10. 3 , 4. As we are undeservedly accus'd of Blasphemy against the Omnipotency , so are the Accusations that follow meer Calumnies invented to inflame a hatred against us ; yet the main Pillars to support the most learned Mr. Prior's Damnation of our Souls . It is a Capital Crime This , and highly deserving to be immediately rank'd next to the former . For in the next place you assert , Mr. Prior , that we teach , That God is the Author of Sin ; whence you infer that the Devil is our God , and that the Reformed go about to recal from Orcus the long since buried Heresies of the Florinians and Manichaeans . Nay , the Calumny was carried so high , that Becanus the Jesuite , in his Manual Controv. propounds this Question ; Whether God be the Author of Sin ? as one of those which are controverted at this day between You and Us. And tho' we deny'd it , and complain'd of the Injury done us , wishing Anathema's to all that teach , That God is the Author of Sin , yet the Imputation continues , and our Adversaries would fain persuade us that we believe otherwise then really we do . As Mercurie in Plautus would have persuaded Sosias that he was not the same Person he took himself to be . However , do but turn over the Confessions of Faith , the Forms of Consent , the Public Catechisms of our Church , and try whether you can find in them any thing that ●avours in the least of that Impiety . Come to our holy Assemblies , vouchsafe to hear our Sermons , and try whether you can find any such thing there ; nay , whether we do not openly and professedly teach the contrary , as often as occasion offers . So far are our Churches from this Blasphemy , that they expresly and in formal Terms reject this Proposition , That God is the Author of Sin , Confess . Gal. Art. 8. & Belg. Art. 13. They who lay this to our Charge , acknowledg that it is Affirm'd by none of us ; only by certain Consequences they would Wire-draw it from some Sentences of our Doctors ; acknowledging nevertheless , that Zuinglius , Martyr , Calvin and Beza , whom you have charged as guilty of this Crime , expresly and in formal Terms have condemn'd that impious Axiom in their Writings ; and whose Testimonies also your Doctors produce , as is to be seen in Bellarmin de amiss . grat . l. 2. c. 2. and in Becanus after him , l. 3. Manual . Cont. l. 3. c. 5. quaest 6. § . 4. Nay , Calvin himself , against whom nevertheless you have the greatest Peek , is acknowledg'd by your Doctors , to have most effectually confuted the same Impiety against the Libertines that upheld it . Truly since the Romanists at this day will not allow that to be an Axiom of Faith , which is not to be found literally in Scripture , but is only deduc'd from a certain kind of Consequence , That which is not cannot be , that they should justly attribute to some of ours this Assertion , That God is the Author of Sin ; because it seems to be consequentially deduc'd from some of their Sayings , seeing it is not only any where expresly Extant in any of their Writings , but is also expresly in plain words refuted and rejected by the same Authors . So that if every one ought to be the Interpreter of his own words , we are rather to believe our own Authors as to their Sense , then their Adversaries ; who do not condemn them for what they have said , but with envious Eyes industriously search and prie into their Writings to find out Flaws and Pretences of rejecting and condemning them . Ours therefore are desirous to maintain that all the Works of God were known to him from Eternity , Act. 15. 18. that nothing lyes conceal'd from him , and that nothing happens in the World without some secret Dispen sation of his . That he is not what Epicurus dream'd him to be , a slothful Spectator of those things which are transacted in the World ; but that his Eternal Providence sits at the Helm , and that he steers and governs the Ship as he pleases himself . In him we have our Being , live and move , as St. Paul teaches us , Act. 17. 28. Also that our Sins and Transgressions of his Law are subjected to the Government of his most secret Counsels ; as Poysons may be wholsomly and profitably administred by a prudent Physitian ; and as the Sun-beams diffuse themselves over Mud , and penetrate rotten Carkasses , without being defiled . That God often punishes Sins by Sins ; and that not only the Hearts of Kings are in his hands , as Solomon tells us , Prov. 21. 1. but universally of all Mankind , like a stream of Waters , so that he may incline them which way he pleases . Lastly , after a wonderful and most ineffable manner , as St. Austin speaks , Enchirid. c. 120. That what is done contrary to his Will , is not always done without his Will ; because it could not be done , if he did not permit it ; neither does he permit against his Will , but voluntarily . As he is Good , he would not permit Evils to be done ; unless as he is Omnipotent , he could bring Good out of Evil. Now tho' some of ours , desirous to explain themselves concerning these most constant and perpetual Truths , have made use of some Expressions somewhat harsh , they are not therefore presently to be condemn'd ; much less are others to fasten upon them whatever may be squeez'd from their Sayings by certain violent and malitious Consequences . But what Sayings of our Divines will you Romanists produce , to give credit to your Calumnies , the like to which I will not shew you in Scripture ? Joseph , Gen 20. 50. said to his Brethren , That the same evil which they had contriv'd against him , God had contriv'd for the best , to the preservation of a mighty People ; that is to say , Divine Providence concurring with their Theft , and making use of it to a wholsom end . The Lord himself testifies , Exod. 10. 1. That he exasperated and harden'd the heart of Pharaoh and his Servants , tho' Moses had wrought all his Miracles in the midst of them . By Nathan , 2 Sam. 12. 11 , 12. he declar'd to David , That he would stir up evil against him out of his own house , and that he would cause his Wives to be ravished before his face , and deliver them to his Servants , who should lye with them in the open Sun ; adding also these words , Thou didst this secretly , but I will do this thing before all Israel , and before the Sun. Such like Expressions are to be met with , Isai . 6. 10. and 63. 17. Act. 4. 27. Rom. 1. 24. And would I be prolix , I could demonstrate , that there has been nothing said by Ours in this Matter , but that much harsher has fallen from the Pens of the most learned Men in your Church ; nay , what whole Societies maintain at this day in the very Bosom of it . Let one serve for all ; that is to say Bellarmin , who , l. 2. de amiss . Grat. c. 13. thus goes on ; God does not only permit the Wicked to commit many Evils , neither does he only forsake the Godly , that they may be constrain'd to suffer what ever injuries the Wicked shall offer them ; but also he presides over those evil and malicious Wills , rules and governs them , twists and bends them by working in them invisibly ; so that altho' they be evil out of their own vitious Inclinations , yet they are dispos'd by Divine Providence more to one sort of Mischief then another . III. As it cannot be without extreme Injury said of us , That we make God the Author of Sin ; so it is no less maliciously fixed upon us , in your Church , to the end you may have a Pretence the more freely to condemn us , that we maintain , That Christ despair'd upon the Cross , and that the grievous Torments which he felt in his Body , would have little availd , unless he had also suffer'd in his Soul the Pangs and Torments of the Damn'd . But look upon the Tenth Section of the Gallican Catechism , where the contrary is expresly asserted ; that is to say , that Christ still hop'd in God in the midst of all his Agonies , even then when he cry'd out in the depth of all his Woes , My God , My God , why hast thou forsaken me ? As i● his Father had bin in wrath with him , and had deserted him . It behov'd Christ , to the end he might free the Souls together with the Bodies , to suffer the Punishment of our Sins , as well in his Soul as in his Body . The most Learned among you in this Point , are of the same Opinion with us . Cardinal Cusanus , Exercit. Spirit . l. 10. ex Serm. Qui per Spiritum , has utter'd those things upon this Subject , without any Censure of your Church , which would have been adjug'd Blasphemous and Impious in the Reformed , had they dropt from their Pens . The Passion of Christ ( says he ) then which none could be greater , was like that of the Damn'd , that cannot be more damn'd ; that is to say , even to the Torments of Hell. In his behalf says the Prophet David , The pains of Hell compass'd me about , nevertheless thou hast brought my Soul out of Hell. But he is the only Person who through such a Death enter'd into that Glory . That same Pain of Sense conformable to the Pains of Hell , he was certainly resolv'd to suffer , to the Glory of God the Father ; that he might shew , that he was to Obey him to the extremity of Punishment . For this is to glorisie God by all possible manner of means . And thus our Justification comes solely from Christ . For we Sinners in Him discharge the debt of Infernal Torments which we justly deserve , that so we may attain to the Resurrection of Life . Suarez also , of the same Order , in 3 Thom. Quaest . 52. Art. 4. Disput . 43. Sect 1. relates out of Medina , That some Catholics believ'd , that Christ suffer'd outwardly some Pains of the Damned in Hell , yet not in the same manner as the Damned suffer ; that is to say , against their Wills , or with Disorder and Confusion , but out of extraordinary Charity . What more have ever any of Ours said , not to offend Christ , but out of a desire to seek the Fountain of Sweetness in the Bitterness of his Woes ; the Harvest of Joy in his Sadness , Security of Heart in his Horrors , and the●eby to acknowledge his Victory the more Illustrious , by how much the Combat was more Terrible which he undertook ; and the Triumph the more Glorious , by how much the more Dreadful the Labors were that he sustain'd ? But from the Pens of which of Ours dropt any thing like that , which John Ferus both taught and wrote upon this Subject ? By Birth a Teutonic ( says Sixtus Senensis , a Dominican Biblioth . l. 4. ) of the Order of Minors , Preacher in the Chief Church at Mentz , a Person highly learned in Theology , endu'd with a singular Eloquence , whose Equal in the duty of Evangelical Preaching the Catholic German Churches at this time have not to shew , because he wrote in a more free and polite stile Pious and Learned Meditations , according to the Catholic Doctrin . This Man therefore upon Mat. 27. discoursing of Christ's Exclamation upon the Cross , has these Expressions ; Christ at this hour put off God , not by Exposing himself , but by not Feeling ; he set aside the Father , that he might act the Man. Thus God the Father now does not act the part of a Father , but of a Tyrant , tho' in the mean time he had a most tender Affection for Christ . And in another place ; Christ , that he might set Sinners free , put himself in the place of all Sinners ; not Stealing , nor committing Adultery , nor Murther , &c. but translating to himself the Wages , Punishment and Deserts of Sinners , which are Cold , Heat , Hunger , Thirst , Dread of Death , Dread of Hell , Despair , Death , and Hell it self ; that he might overcome Hunger by Hunger , Fear by Fear , Horror by Horror , Despair by Despair , Death by Death , Hell by Hell , and in a word , Satan by Sitan . Go then , Reverend Mr. Prior , and bring me any Reformed Doctor that ever talk'd at this rate , which nevertheless in Ferus the Monk never any of your Party censur'd for Blasphemy . IV. These more grievous Calumnies being thus wip'd off , the rest that remain behind are too slight for me to spend much time in refuting them . The most of your Party cry out , That we deserve to be damn'd , because we are Enemies to the Blessed Virgin and the Saints , as also to Mortification , &c. Are we to be traduc'd as Enemies to the Blessed Virgin , who understand that we cannot be so , but we must cease to be Christians , who believe her now in Heaven , enjoying Celestial Glory near her Son ? Who know that on Earth she was the truly happy and blessed Mother of our Lord and Savior ? Are we to be accounted the Saints Enemies , who boast of their Communion in our Creed , and by the Imitation of their Examples , as much as in us lyes , labour up the same Hill to the same Reward ? But you will say , That we Reformed do not adore the Blessed Virgin , nor the Shrines of the Saints , &c. I Answer , That we abstain from that sort of Worship , not out of hatred or contempt of the Blessed Virgin , but lest we should offend them , by paying to them that Religious Worship which is only due to God. The Faithful in the Old Testament , never gave these Honors to the Prophets and Patriarchs deceas'd , and yet they were never accounted their Adversaries . For four hundred years together there was no such Adoration us'd in the Primitive Church . And Antiquity anathematiz'd the Collyridians leaning that way , and saluting the Holy Virgin by the Title of Queen of Heaven , as we find in Epiphanius , Haeres . 79. cont . Collyrid . The Body of Mary was really Holy , but no God. She was really a Virgin , and an honourable Virgin ; but not intended for our Adoration , in regard that she ador'd him that was begot of her Flesh . And moreover by the Example of the Angel refusing Adoration and Worship from John , he proves , That much less the Virgin Mary either desires or ought to be Worship'd . But what he said particularly of the Virgin , that did St. Austin affirm at the same time concerning all the Saints ; that is to say , That they are to be Honour'd in respect of Imitation , not to be Worship'd in respect of Religion ; l. de vera Relig. c. ult . V. Neither can they find any thing in us , that is repugnant to Chastity , Sobriety , Mortification of the Flesh , and Study of Good Works . For to all these things we Pastors frequently and seriously in our Pulpits exhort our Flocks . Nor by the Grace of God do we so live , that we should be thought to have proclaim'd open War to all Vertue and Godliness . For our not allowing that Law of Celibacy , so burthenson to the Clergy , is no hatred of Chastity , when Celibacy it self is that which has turn'd away so many , and still hurries multitudes from the true Paths of Chastity . Insomuch as Pius II , as Platina relates in his Life , was wont to say , That Wedlock was deny'd the Priests upon good Grounds , but that for better Reasons it ought to be restor'd them . We are not averse to Sobriety and Fasting , because we reject those superstitious Observations ; upon the Prescribing of which the same thing is said to us , as formerly they us'd to say , against whom the Apostle writes , Col. 2. 21. Eat not , taste not , touch not ; and to which , upon the score of our Consciences , we cannot submit . Not that we are so addicted to luxurious Lives , or so studious to indulge our Appetites ; but because they put a Bridle upon our Consciences , contrary to the Liberty purchas'd us in Christ ; and constitute the Essence of Fasting , not in humbling the Mind before God , and Veneration of his Deity ; but in the nice Choice of some sorts of Meats , and Rejecting others ; and because they affirm , that by such bodily Exercises , and such kind of Diet , our Sins may be Expiated , and that Men thereby merit Eternal Life . We do not hate the Mortification of the Old Man , while we reject the publick Whippings and affected Macerations of those who had rather exercise Cruelty upon Nature , then correct the Corruption of it , and who seem to bear a hatred to their own Flesh , contrary to that of the Apostle , Eph. 5. 29. Whereas they ought rather to submit the Affections of their Hearts to the Will of God. For if it were so much a Duty to Chastize and Enslave your outward and visible Bodies , the Baalites , Brachmans , Priests of the Syrian Goddess , the Mahometan Monks , and those Whipsters which about Two hundred years ago the Roman Church numbred in the List of Heretics , have outdone and still outdo you in those Rigorous Exercises . But the Body which thou art to subdue , is the Body of Sin ; and the Members to be extirpated , are the Vices of it , as the Apostle says , Col. 3. 5. Mortifie your Members which are upon earth ; Fornication , Vncleanness , inordinate Affection , evil Concupiscence , and Covetousness , which is Idolatry . Lastly ; it is no hating of Good Works , to pronounce them necessary for Salvation ; yet so , that they may but only be the way to the Kingdom , and not the Cause of Reigning ; the cause of our Salvation being solely ascrib'd to the Mercy and Grace of God in Jesus Christ , and by no means to our own Merits , joyn'd with his , as if they could be Assistant toward so great a Benefit . But would to God , that setting aside these Controversies about the Use of Good Works , we could but give our Minds both of us to practice them with a sincere Charity ; then Mr. Prior would not be so highly exorbitant in his Unchristianlike Judgment concerning us . Then again , how can any Hatred of the most sacred Eucharist be affixed upon the Reformed , who urge nothing so much as the entire taking of it under Both Kinds , in conformity to the Institution of Christ ; and who believe concerning it , both what the Scripture holds forth , and what the Fathers of the Ancient Church deliver ? But it is no hatred of this most August Sacrament , to refuse to Kneel to it , and to pay the highest degree of Veneration to it , as it is the Custom in your Roman Church . We abstain from this Adoration of the Eucharist , lest we should pay to the Creature , what is only owing to God. The Sacraments are Holy Things , which are to be lookt upon with Decency and Reverence , but not to be Ador'd . The Brazen Serpent among the Israelites was a sacred Thing , and as it were the permanent Sacrament of our future Redemption by the Cross of Christ ; but yet the Israelites were Idolaters , so soon as they began to Adore it and Worship it with Frankincense . We do not read that the Apostles Worshipt this Sacrament . Christ indeed is to be Ador'd in the Use of this Sacrament , as in every Religious Performance ; and in that sense it is true what St. Austin says upon Psa . 98. Let no man eat his flesh , unless he have first ador'd ; which words , Gloss . decret . in Can. Accesserunt & distinct . 2. of Consecration , are interpreted of Spiritual Eating ; so that he thence infers an Argument , That no Mouse can receive the Body of Christ . But the Sacrament it self cannot be the Object of our Adoration , nor can the Presence of the Body of Christ in the Sacrament be the Ground of it . Such is the miserable Servitude of the Soul to take Signs and Symbols for Realities ; so that it cannot lift up the Eye of the Mind above the Corporeal Creature to receive Eternal Light , as St. Austin says , lib. 3. de Doctrin . Christ . c. 5. Without doubt Antiquity never knew what Adoration of the Sacrament meant ; and as little known to them was that Modern Practice of carrying it about the Streets , or of erecting to it , in the High-ways , Altars hung about with Tapestry , or of shewing it to the People at certain Hours of the Day , when the Mass is not celebrated . At that time it was distributed to the People either Sitting or Standing , generally upon the Lord's Days , when it was chiefly administred ; as appears out of Justin , Apol. 2. but never Kneeling ; because it was a Crime among the Primitive Christians to Kneel upon the Lord's Day , as all the Learned agree . Nor do the Romanists deny but that there is some danger of Idolatry in this Adoration ; because that many things are requir'd in Transubstantiation , which whether they are really so as they ought to be , is not evidently apparent to any Man. Therefore the Famous Biel , lect . 50. in Can. letter O , proposes to himself this difficulty ; Because an Error may happen in Consecration , by means of which the effect of the Consecration is hindred ; as if the Person that Consecrates be no Priest ; or because he errs in Form , or because the due Intention is wanting ; nor can he that stands by , be sure that a Transubstantiation is made ; no nor the Priest that celebrates ; because he is not absolutely certain whither he be a Priest or no , in regard the Intention of his Ordainer is not positively known to him ; all which things consider'd , how can he that Adores the Sacrament , avoid the danger of Idolatry ? For if he adores an unconsecrated Host , which he thinks to be consecrated , he commits Idolatry . Nor does he propound any other Remedy to escape this danger of Idolatry , then a Conditional Adoration ; which whether it pleases your modern Doctors or no , I know not . These are his words , Litt. R. Resp . Secundum Alex. part . 3. quaest . 30. memb . 3. art . 1. sect . 3. and after him Bishop Thomas , and St. Bonaventure in 3. distinst . 9. That the Host or Eucharist upon the Altar ought to be ador'd , upon condition , that all things requisite to the Consecration , are so as they ought to be . Since then the Adoration of the Sacrament is dubious and dangerous , we of the Reformed Church are not to be accounted Enemies of the Sacrament , because we do not adore it , following that course which is safest and voidof all danger , lest we should adore what we know not , like the Samaritans of old , John 4. Lastly , We cannot be traduc'd for being Enemies to any profess'd legal Order , whether Political or Ecclesiastical ; since it is our desire that all things should be done decently and regularly in the Church , according to the Apostolic Precept , 1 Cor. 4. 40. And for that we press nothing more urgently in the Public Government , then due Obedience to the Magistrates , ignorant of the dangerous Axioms of your Roman Church , which tear up by the Roots the Authority of Princes , and subject the Heads and Diadems of Kings and Emperors to the Mitre and Feet of the Pope . Nay , we are in this Point so rigid in our Duty , that Bellarmin complains , That we give too much Power to Magistrates , c. 17. de Laicis . But because we hold , That the Laws of Men do not bind the Conscience , it is not to be taken in such a sense , as if we deny'd , That Men were to be obey'd , because of our Consciences ; but only as making this difference between Human and Divine Laws , That the latter only bind and subject the Consciences immediately and of themselves . And Bellarmin , c. 9. de Laicis , confesses ; John Gerson , Chancellor of the Academy of Paris , de vit . Spirit . Lect. 4. and Jacobus Almain , a Doctor of the Sorbonn , de Protestat . Ecclesiae , quaest . 1. cap. 10. both Famous Men , and neither of them taxed with any Error in Faith. We do not allow so many Rites and Ceremonies in the Church , not out of any hatred of Order and Decency , but out of a just abhorrence of Tyranny and Susperstition . The more Night comes on , the more the Darkness encreases . Multitude of Ceremonies are so far from helping , that they stifle Piety . If the Roman Pontiff press'd no more then only a certain Primacy among the Bishops of the West , for Orders sake ; and that by a positive Human and not Divine Law , he might then perhaps have some Pretence to complain of us , for refusing to acknowledge such a Primacy , as Enemies to Order in the Church ; and yet there might be a Decency observ'd therein , without any such Primacy , as is apparent from the Example of our Churches . But we are not to be accus'd of Despising Order , while we only reject his Authority ; in regard he arrogates to himself an absolute Primacy in the Universal Church , not only of Order , but of Power , Authority and Jurisdiction ; by virtue of which he pretends to be Monarch of the whole Church jure Divino , contrary to the Saying of St. Cyprian , de Simpl. prael . A Bishoprick is that , of which a part is held by several in particular to make up the whole . Thus far we have discuss'd the more weighty and more heavy Calumnies which are cast upon the Protestants by the Romanists , on purpose to render them odious to the People , and that they may have some Pretence to deliver them up to the Flames of Hell. Now there are some other Motives of this rash Judgment to be examin'd , that there may not the least shadow of Reason remain to support it . There is no Name by which we are more frequently mark'd out , then that of Heretics ; and under this Title you , Mr. Prior , Anathematize us , tho' not the First . For the Pope every year , in his Bull entitl'd , Caena Domini , brandishes his Thunder of Excommuication over our Heads , and Interdicts us from all Society with Roman Catholics ; so that they dare not either read our Books , or hear our Sermons . Where-ever the Rigor of the Inquisition reigns , our People are hurry'd before its cruel Tribunal , as to the Altars of Busiris , and the Roman Doctors presently Preach to us the Axioms of their School ; That Heretics and Excommunicated Persons , ipso facto , lose the Dominion and Property of their Goods and Estates ; That they are incapable of all lawful Jurisdiction ; That they do more harm in a Common-wealth then Whores ; nay then Jews and Turks ; so that 't is better to tolerate Brothel-houses and Synagogues then their Meetings : That for this reason the Pope has Power to deprive Kings of their Dignity ; to absolve Subjects from their Oaths of Fidelity given to the Magistrates : That a Husband may forsake his Wife upon this account , if she presume to bring up the Children , common to both , in Heresie , altho' the Husband had condescended and engaged his Promise upon the Contract of Marriage . Lastly , That Faith given to Heretics , may be violated without any remorse of Conscience . However I maintain this Crime of Heresie to be unjustly , and out of meer Calumny fixed upon Us , the word being taken in that Sense , wherein the Scripture condemns Heresie ; as when St. Paul reck'ns it among the Fruits of the Flesh , Gal. 5. 20. and commands Titus to reject a Heretic , Tit. 3. 10. I say Protestants are no Heretics in that sense wherein Heresie is condemn'd in Scripture . Certain it is , that the Signification of this word is in general more diffus'd among the Antients , and in particular more largely us'd among the Romanists , and that among both they are frequently tax'd of Heresie , who according to the Scripture are very remote from it . First in general among the Antients : For Philastrius Bishop of Brescia , Contemporary with St. Ambrose , reck'ns for Heresie the Opinion of those that attributed the Epistle to the Hebrews , to Clement or Barnabas ; also the Opinion of them that affirm'd the Stars to be fix'd in their Celestial Globes . Whether or no were the Quartodecimans justly deem'd Heretics , because they would have Easter to be precisely celebrated upon the Fourteenth Moon ? For this was the Opinion of all the Churches of Asia the less , and which Polycrates , a holy Man , stifly maintains from Apostolical Tradition . And when Victor Bishop of Rome , presum'd , about Two hundred years after Christ , for that reason to Excommunicate the Asiatic Churches ; that is to say , to renounce Communion with them ; Irenaeus of Lyons sharply reprov'd him , as the Epistles of Polycrates and Irenaeus extant about this Matter in Eusebius , declare , Hist . Eccles . l. 5. c. 23. & 24. Was Aetius deservedly numbred among the Heretics , because he acknowledg'd no difference , jure Divino , between a Bishop and a Presbyter ? For it is not evident that the Scripture acknowledges any such difference ; and that St. Jerom upon cap. 2. of the Epistle to Titus , was plainly of the same Opinion ; nay , and according to Medina in Bellarmin , That St. Ambrose , St. Austin , Sedulius , Primasius , and other the most Famous Fathers of the Church , were all of the same Judgment . Then again , without question , Rome does no way approve the Ancients for numbring the Angelics among the Heretics , because they gave Religious Worship to Angels , which she herself defends ; or those who by St. Austin are call'd Nudipedales , or Pattalorynchites ; against the former of which it is objected , That they went Bare-foot , seeing that at this day this is one of the greatest Marks of extraordinary Sanctity among you Romanists . The other are tax'd to have profess'd a certain sort of Religious Silence , which the Carthusian Monks however make no small part of their Glory . Or the Collyridians of Epiphanius , Heres . 79. who offer'd to the Blessed Virgin little Cakes or Wiggs , in Greek call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and gave her the Title of Queen of Heaven : Which they that now refuse to do , are all accounted Heretics . Or the Starolatrae of Nicephorus , Hist . l. 18. c. 54. who , as the Name imports , worshipt the Cross ; which most of you assert is a Duty to be done ; Gretser the Jesuite affirming , who in that , follows Thomas , Cajetan , Valentia and Vasquez , that it is the more common Opinion among those of his Religion , l. 1. de Cruce , c. 49. More paricularly among the Modern Romanists under Gregory VII . The Collation of Benefices by Princes , and by Caesar , was call'd the Simonian and Henrician Heresie . And as often as in Matters meerly Political any difference happen'd betwen the Kings and Emperors and the Bishops of Rome , they declar'd them Heretics . Thus Boniface VIII , declar'd Philip the Fair , King of France , a Heretic , because he sent none of his Soldiers to the Holy War. Thus John Albret , King of Navar , was declar'd a Heretic by Julius II , because he took part with Lewis XII , tho' the Quarrel was not about Matter of Faith ; and by virtue of that Condemnation he lost his Kingdom , which the Spaniard has kept ever since . John XXII , pronounced Lewis of Bavaria , the Emperor , a Heretic , because he defended the Cause of the Franciscans , at that time out of the Pope's Favour ; but more particularly that of Ockam . I forbear to mention any more . We must therefore restrain the Signification of this word , and a little more diligently examin who is properly a Heretic , to the end we may the more easily prove the Protestants not to be guilty of this Crime . An Heretic ( in my Opinion ) is one who for the sake of Temporal Profit , but chiefly of Honor and Supremacy , or of Lordship , either founds or follows False and New Opinions . Thus St. Austin , de utilitate ad cred . Honor. c. 1. Now in this sense we are not Heretics : For tho' the Opinions were False which we uphold , yet we could not be said to follow them for the sake of any Temporal Profit , more especially of Honor or Supremacy , but only for the obtaining of Salvation , and upon the only Motive of our Consciences ; in regard it is plain to all the World , that God has annexed to our Profession Reproach , the Cross and Poverty ; and that the Protestants often experience the Truth of that Sentence of St. Paul , All that will live godly in Christ Jesus , shall suffer Persecution , 2 Tim. 3. 12. Let Cardinal Bellarmin come in for a share too . Why ? Because he has lit upon a most powerful means for me to demonstrate to Mr. Prior , That We are no HERETICS . He therefore , c. 8. de not . Eccles . going about to prove , that there is no Church among the Greeks , notwithstanding the continued Succession of their Bishops from the Apostles time ; at least from the Reign of Constantine the Great , under whom he believes the Constantinopolitan Church began , says , That the Greeks were lawfully convicted in three full Councils , the Lateran , that of Lyons , and the other of Florence , of Heresie and Schism , more especially of the Heresie about the Proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the Son. This Question about the Proceeding of the Holy Ghost , I do not pretend to enter into ; nor do I see any great difference between the Latins , affirming the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son ; and the Greeks , alledging that He proceeds from the Father through the Son. This is that which I think worthy Observation , That after all the Tridentin Decisions , whereby the greatest part of the Opinions of our Churches were condem'd for Heresies , Bellarmin attributes no other Heresie to the Greeks , besides that of the Proceeding of the Holy Ghost . Whence it follows , that among the Greeks , the Marriage of Priests , Communicating under Both Kinds , and with Leavened Bread ; the Rejecting Extreme Unction , Auricular Confession , Transubstantiation , Purgatory , and Pontifical Monarchy , were no Heresies ; in all which the Orientals agree with us ▪ Now if these Articles of the Greeks had bin Heretical , how comes it to pass that the Lateran , Lyons and Florentine Councils , which enquir'd into their Errors , past them by ? But if they were not Heretical among the Greeks in the East , why should they be so among the Protestants in the West ? If among the Greeks it be no Heresie , but only a Schism to reject the Papal Authority , and to shake off his Yoke , why must it be a pernicious and capital Heresie among the Protestants ? Neither is it to be doubted , but that if the Greeks would have subjected themselves in the Lateran Council to the See of Rome , all the above-mentioned Articles , except the denial of the Pope's Supremacy , had been allow'd them . Whence it is apparent that those Articles are neither Heretical nor pernicious in Faith , nor destructive of Salvation ; since it was possible that the Greeks retaining them , might nevertheless have bin true Members of the Catholic Church , and consequently capable of Eternal Life . But that no Man may think I am overcuriously romaging for my Justification in the Thesis's of my Adversaries , that I may slip out at length at some Back-door , I shall add some direct Reasons for our Innocency , which cannot be Answer'd . First therefore , no Man can be traduc'd as a Heretic , and branded with an Infamous Crime , unless it be sufficiently apparent , that He , as the Scripture says , has receded from the Holy Command of God , and suffer'd Shipwrack of his Faith. For as St. Austin says , de unit . Eccles . c. 5. No Man is to be branded with an ignominious Mark , unless it be first prov'd by most manifest Proofs , that the Mark belongs to Him. And therefore formerly Councils were assembled , as well Provincial as General , for the Conviction of Heretics ; wherein it was lawful for the Offenders to defend themselves , and the Cause was seriously examin'd by the Rule of Faith , and the Documents of Sacred Scripture . Neither did Passion prevail among Them , but Truth and the Fear of God. But in respect of the Protestants , no such thing was ever observ'd ; for against them they began preposterously with Execution . The first Arguments of their Adversaries , were Halters , Fire and Sword , according to the Dystich affixed to the Bed of Charles V , at the Augustan Dyet , in the Year 1530. Vtere jure tuo , Caesar , servosque Lutheri Ense , Rota , Ponto , Funibus , Igne neca . Caesar , use thy own Power , and Luther's fry With Halters , Swords , Wheels , Fire and Sea destroy . Whence it came to pass , that after a thousand sorts of Executions , and numberless Martyrs consum'd by violent Deaths ; at length a Council was assembled , but packt , and consisting of none but the Capital Enemies of the Protestants ; not to hear them calmly and mildly , nor to discuss their Cause with Charity and Meekness , but to brandish and rattle o'er their Heads the Thunder os Anathema's . Neither were they ever admitted or heard in this Council , I mean that of Trent ; the History of which , if read , is sufficient to display the Justice of it . Nay , Rome it self was asham'd of this Council ; for she only publish'd the Canons and Decrees , but diligently suppress'd the Acts ; which nevertheless were afterwards , through the singular Providence of God , brought to lightby Paul Sarpio , a Venetian , of the Order of the Servites , under the Name of Pietro Soave Polano , to the great astonishment and detestation of all Men , whose Judgments were more sound and impartial . In the Second place , there is no Heresie , where there is no stubborn Obstinacy , nor wilful persisting in the Error . This St. Austin teacheth us , Epist . 162. They who defend not their Opinion with any stubborn Animosity , tho' false and perverse , more especially if not brought forth by the boldness of their own Presumption , but having receiv'd it from their Parents , either seduc'd or fall'n into Error , seek after the Truth with industrious Care , ready to be corrected when they have found it , are not to be numbred among Heretics . Now the Reform'd are far from any such Stubbornness ; nothing retains them in their Religion , except the force of Conscience through the evidence of Truth . We daily offer those who accuse us of Heresie , to forsake the Error , if we are in any , so they shew it to us with the Light of Truth . For with that only Daughter of Heaven we are enamor'd e'en to death , who alone can recover and assert our freedom . If we discover any extraordinary Zeal and Fervor ( I wish it were more fervent ) in our Profession , that is not to be imputed to any Spirit of Contradiction , but to that most firm Persuasion of our Hearts , through the Celestial Illumination of the Divine Word , that we are in the way of Truth . But yet a little farther . Thirdly , As a Cat has an enmity against a Bat , and will eat it , either because she takes it for a Mouse , or a Bird ; so you Romanists prosecute us Protestants with an implacable Hatred , and damn us to the Flames of Hell , either as Heretics , or , if that Pretence fail , as Schismatics . For they who deal most gently by us , can afford us no better then to lay to our Charge the Crime of Schism , the Rending of the seamless Garment of Christ , the Viper's Skin , and the breach of the Churches Unity . But as far as we are from Heresie , so far likewise are we from Schism ; and of this Crime it will be as easie to clear our selves as of the former . First therefore , tho' the first Authors of the Reformation had overhastily deserted the Roman Communion ; which cannot be said , in regard that they try'd all ways to preserve themselves in it , with safety to their Consciences ; nevertheless they who were born after the Schism , and prefer the Protestant Communion before the Roman , because they find Satisfaction of Conscience in it , which they have no prospect of in the other Communion , cannot be accus'd of Schism , nor can be censur'd to have lost the hopes of Salvation , because they persevere in the Protestant Communion . This perhaps , Mr. Prior , you look upon as a Paradox , and yet it may be prov'd without any great difficulty . Certain it is , that formerly , under Jeroboam , ten entire Tribes , a Schism happening , deserted the Communion of the Church and Temple of Jerusalem , of which God had said , My Name shall abide there ; and having made choice of Dan and Bethel for the places of Public Worship , joyn'd Idolatry to their Schism . For the Calves at Dan and Bethel , under which they ador'd God , were most assuredly Idols . Nevertheless it is a Question whether the Posterity of these Schismatics , born in the time of the Schism it self , and as it were carry'd away with the Torrent of it , are to be excluded from Salvation ; so that they abstain'd from the Worship of Idols at that time . The reason of the Doubt seems very great ; for that God , long after the Schism , still acknowledg'd the Ten Tribes for his People ; sent his Prophets to them , and entrusted them with his Extraordinary Oracles . If then it cannot be said of these Ten Tribes , so notoriously Schismatical , that there was nothing remaining of the Covenant of God , and Light of Nature for them , who were as it were swept away with the Torrent of Schism ; much less are the Modern Protestants to be excluded from Salvation , and formally to be accounted Heretics , tho' it should be granted , that the first Authors of the Schism did sin against the Rules of Charity , and overhastily broke the Bond of Unity , especially seeing that the Divine Worship under the New Testament is not fixed to Rome and the Quirinal Mount , as it was to Sinai , and the Temple of Jerusalem . But there is no necessity that we should over earnestly desire the Assistance of the Ten Tribes ; our Cause would be but in a desperate Condition , should it stand in need of their Aid . I must confess , we did depart from the Church of Rome , and that another Worship was set up in the West as to External Rites , then was publicly receiv'd before the time of that departure . But I deny that this departure , so far as concerns our selves , to be a Schism ; rather I averr , on the other side , that it was lawful and just , and that they are to be accounted Schismatics who were the occasion of so necessary a departure , that caus'd the Wound to Gangrene , and shut the Gate against all Peace and Re-union of the Church . For sometimes it may be convenient to desert some Societies that profess the Name of Christ , if there be taught among them any other Gospel then what we have receiv'd from the Apostles . This is a thing not to be question'd . Hence Apoc. 2. 6. the Ephesians are commended , because they hated the Nicolaitans . On the other side , the Pergamenians are reprov'd , ver . 15 , 16. because they gave them a Toleration . Hence in the Ancient Church , the Orthodox and Catholics always very sedulously deserted the Communion of Heretics . Rome it self , which now accuses us of Schism , in the very Infancy of the Christian Religion departed from the Asiatic Churches upon a slight difference about Easter-day . And it is long since that the Romanists broke the Bond of Unity with the whole East . But it is not long since , that the Commonwealth of Venice being Excommunicated by Paul V , the Jesuites were seen openly to desert the whole Territory ; so that they rather chose to renounce their Temples , their Altars , and their Ordinary Worship , then remain in the least Communion with the Venetian . So that they are not simply to be blam'd who separate , but they that separate unjustly and rashly . Let us see then whether or no our Separation were just and necessary , that we may free it from being Schismatical . Certainly it cannot be said , that we separated willingly and of our own accords , but constrain'd and expell'd by all manner of violences . In the very Bosom of the Roman Church , we importunately desir'd a Reformation of Abuses , which process of time had multiplied , as well in Doctrin as in Disciplin ; and which the Grandees and People in the Churches of Germany , France , England , and the Low Countries , most earnestly long'd for , both in the Head and Members . But what was done ? They were not only not heard , much less heard in so just a Petition , but all severity was exercis'd against them with Temporal and Spiritual Arms ; Fire , Sword and Halters were made use of to extirpate out of the World those whom Anathema's and the Thunder of Excommunication had expell'd from all Public Communion . Thus Excommunicated , Expell'd , and lyable to dire Persecution , what should we do ? It was not safe to redeem your Communion at the Price of our Consciences , by subscribing to the Errors themselves , and by receiving all those School-Assertions which we deem'd contrary to the Rules of Christian Doctrin , as Articles of our Faith. Therefore it was necessary that another Worship should be set up , that other Pulpits should be erected , and that other Congregations should be assembled together , which was every where done by the Authority of the Magistrate , whose Duty it is to protect the Church , and sedulously to take care for the Reformation of Doctrin and Disciplin therein , if corrupted through the neglect of the Ordinary Pastors . Becanus the Jesuite , Analog . Vet. & Nov. Test . c. 26. num . 4. reck'ns up several Reformations made in the Jewish Church by Pious Kings , such as were Asa , Jehosaphat , Josia , Ezechia and Joas , who most certainly had sufficient Authority to reform the Worship of God , and to restore it to its Primitive Purity . Therefore it cannot be deny'd , but that those Christian Princes and Magistrates , who in the times of our Fore-fathers , put their helping Hands to the Reformation , had a Right to labour the Institution of another Worship , more Pure , more Holy , and more Plain then that from which they were forc'd to make a Separation , because they had requir'd a Reformation of it . Moreover , tho' Rome had not forsaken us , yet there was a necessity of forsaking her ; because she refused to reform her own Abuses , and long contracted Corruptions . We have in this particular a most express Command , Apoc. 18. 4. Come out of her my people , that you be not partakers of her crimes , and receive not of her punishments . Which Command is of so much the greater moment , because the Jesuites themselves , Ribera upon the 14. and 18. Apoc. and Viegas upon the 18. interpret that to be meant of Rome , not the Ethnic , but the Christian Rome , and such as it is in Scripture foretold it shall be under Anti-Christ . To us also ( says Viegas , sect . 1. in 18. Apoc. ) it seems that the same thing ought to be said with Aretas , Primasius , Ambrose , Jerom , and others , ( observe what Testimonies he cites and how many ) that the Idolatry of it is here meant , and that Rome shall depart from the Faith , and so shall become the Habitation of Devils , and of every unclean Spirit , and every unclean Bird , by reason of her execrable Enormities , and Superstition of Idolatry , which at that time shall rage far and near in the Roman City and Empire . But you would say , Mr. Prior , if you had any Wit , how comes it to pass that you have now more nice Consciences , then your Fore-fathers had before the Reformation , who dy'd in the Communion of the Roman Church , and of whose Salvation you are unwilling to make any doubt ? I Answer , first ; That the Consciences of others are no Rule to ours , and that every Man ought to follow his own and not anothers . Would you have me , as you desire in your Letter , that I should embrace the Roman Communion ? What if I should press you to embrace Ours , wherein so many Men enjoy the Tranquility of their Consciences ? Secondly , I say that our Fore-fathers might with safety to their Consciences persevere in the Roman Communion , notwithstanding they abominated the Abuses and Corruptions of it , because God had not shewn them a way to depart ; nor were the Abuses as yet so palpably intollerable , because they had not as yet obtain'd the force of Law , nor were establish'd under the Penalties of Excommunication . But the Example of our Ancestors cannot be apply'd to us , because that God set up the Standard of the Gospel in another place to Us. He call'd to Us to come out of Babel , when the Opinions of the Scholastics were changed into Articles of Faith. So long as the time appointed for their Captivity lasted , the Israelites might securely abide either in Egypt or Babel : But it had bin a Crime for them to have remain'd there any longer , when God call'd them forth to Liberty . He would be very ridiculous indeed , who having rich and fertile Pastures , should neglect them , and rather chuse to carry his Flock into noxious Grounds , in hopes that his Sheep would let alone the hurtful Weeds , and only feed upon the wholsom Herbs . So were he deservedly to be derided , who should prefer the noxious and dangerous Pastures of the Roman Church , before the well Wooded Gardens of the Reformed Churches , in hopes of discerning the poysonous Weeds from the wholsom Herbage , as it is very probable our Ancestors did . Lastly , I add this farther ; That I do not here dispute , Whether the Roman Communion may be retain'd , without the loss of Eternal Salvation ? This Question belongs to another place . But , Whether we are Schismatics , because we have deserted it ? Now I maintain the Negative , because that Conscience alone summon'd us to the Separation , without any other Consideration ; nay , contrary to all other worldly Considerations which persuaded us to adhere to it . Some there are , who to convict us of Schism , reproach the Calling of our Pastors , but with an Argument too weak for the Proof of so great a Crime . Formerly the Novatians and Donatists made a Schism in the Church , because they wou'd not submit to Bishops of Places Canonically instituted , but set up Bishops of their own chusing , who , for that they were destitute of Canonical Election , wanted a lawful Calling . But there was no such thing could be said of our first Pastors in the Work of Reformation . For they were not elected and constituted hand over head , in Opposition to others already Canonically instituted , as the Novatians in the Roman See oppos'd Novatus against the Council ; but were lawfully and canonically constituted in their Functions , according to all the Ceremonies then us'd in the Church , and by the nature of their Calling , by which they knew themselves bound to propagate the Truth , were constrain'd in their Consciences to oppose themselves against the Abuses and Corruptions at that time crept into the Church , and to apply themselves to a Reformation . But as they were lawfully Call'd , so they could impart that Calling to others ; and by that means it is deriv'd to us , and so by us may be deriv'd to our Successors . For they are not to be thought to have lost their Calling , for opposing themselves against the Abuses of that Church wherein they receiv'd it . Nay , they had bin unworthy of it , had they not oppos'd themselves against those Corruptions that were so well known to them . For every Church that confers upon any Man the sacred Function of the Public Ministry , seems to say to him , what Trajan the Emperor was wont to say to the Person whom he created Master of the Horse , by the delivery of a Sword , Vse this in my defence , if my Commands are just ; but if unjust , make use of it against me . Thus a Pastor Canonically ordaind , ought to make use of his Calling , to support the Doctrin of the Church wherein he receiv'd it , if it be conformable to Truth ; but if not , to oppose it . Nor does their being Excommunicated , deprive them of their Calling ; because it was unjust , and made use of to support the Errors which they impugned , and to keep up in the Temple the Money-Changers Tables , which they endeavour'd to overturn . Nay , the very Romanists themselves confess , that the Character of the Clergy is indelible , and that an Excommunicated Person may Consecrate , Preach , and administer the Sacraments effectually . Neither is it to be said , that the first Reformers were meer Presbyters , that could not confer their Calling upon others , in regard that Ordination belongs only to the Bishops . For in regard the sacred Scriptures do not so plainly teach us what is the difference between a Presbyter and a Bishop ; and that some of yours , particularly Medina , confess that the Function of Ordaining may as well belong to a Presbyter as a Bishop , you ought not to make any great difficulty in this Case , in regard the Dispute is not yet determin'd . To which I add , That in several places the Reformation began from the Bishops , who therefore held their former Dignity in the Reformation , which they held before . And it is a wonder , Mr. Prior , that you and yours should carp at the Calling of our Pastors , to prove our want of Succession of Pastors , when your selves acknowledg , that any Man without Orders , without a Character , without any Call , may Consecrate the Eucharist . I am contented with one unanswerable Argument . Your Durandus , in his Rationale , lib. 4. cap. 35. § 7. also the Author of the Curates Manual , de Sacr. Eucharist . cap. 10. and many others , give this Reason for the Secreta , ( i. e. the speaking the words of Consecration so low as not to be heard ) being introduc'd in the Canon of the Mass : Because that formerly , when the Canon was repeated with a loud Voice , the People readily learnt the Rites of Consecrating ; whence it came to pass , that the Shepherds in the Country , laying the Bread upon a Stone , and repeating over it the Canon and Words of the Consecration , presently changed their Bread into Flesh . Now either this must be a Fable , which however you frequently make use of to establish your Figment of Transubantiation ; or else you must allow that any Man may Consecrate and Celebrate the most August of all Sacraments , tho' neither Call'd nor Ordain'd , as we cannot believe those Shepherds to have bin . But as the Crime of Schism is falsely laid to our Charge , so are we most falsely said to be without the Church , without which there is no Salvation . We have separated indeed from the Roman Communion , but it does not thence follow that we are out of the Church of God , in regard that by the Grace of God we are Members of the Catholic Church , professing Christianity , baptiz'd in the Name of the most holy Trinity , in all things adhering to the Head and Foundation , Christ Jesus . Cardinal Hosius , in his Confession , acknowledges , That the Church is there where-ever the Belief of the Mediator is . We have a Belief of a Mediator , through the favour of God ; and therefore we are hated at Rome , becaose we acknowledg Christ to be the only Mediator . Besides that , we have not departed from your Roman Church , unless in such things wherein she first departed from the Word of God , and the Purity of Antiquity , adhering still to the same Communion of Faith and Charity with Her in the Fundamentals of Christianity ; and knowing that we and the Members of your Communion are Brethren in Baptism , as the Israelites and Jews were Brethren in Circumcision , tho' in External Worship they differ'd very much . Nor can any probable Reason be invented to convince us , that any Man ought to be subject to the Bishop of Rome , and retain his Communion , to the end he may be in a Church out of which there is no Salvation . So many Christians as are within the ancient Patriarchates of the East , and who exceed you Romanists far in number , are not rashly to be said to be out of the Church of Christ , because they refuse to be under the Pope's Yoke . The Churches of Asia were not excluded from the Covenant of Christ by the rash Excommunication of Pope Victor , because they separated from him upon the difference about Easter-day . The Roman Clergy separated from their Pope Liberius , who had subscrib'd to Arianism , without incuring the blame of Schism , or the loss of Salvation . The Famous St. Cyprian Bishop and Martyr , whom your Church afterwards worshipt among the rest of her Saints , dy'd out of the Communion and Subjection to the See of Rome , divided from her both in Faith and Affection , by reason of his Doctrin of Re-baptizing Heretics , was very hardly thought of by Stephen Bishop of Rome ; and yet no Man hitherto made any doubt but that he obtain'd Salvation . And therefore 't is an idle thing to exact from us Subjection to the See of Rome , to the end we may be in the Church , and obtain Salvation , especially if the Papacy be now Extinct , and that there has bin no lawful Pope for a long time . Now this is easily prov'd : For that I may pass over in silence so many Schisms by which the Succession of the Popes was interrupted ; So many Simoniacal Elections into that See , which are recorded in History ; so many Popes in the Tenth Age to be call'd Apostatic , and Renouncers of Christ , rather then Apostolic ( upon the Testimony of Genebrade ) I use a new Argument to which you Romanists can make no Answer . It is confirm'd as well by the Canon Law , as by Custom time out of mind , That a Pope may constitute a new Law , and a new Form for Chusing a Successor ; which not being observ'd , an Election otherwise made , is void . Hence Julius II , grieving that he had invaded the Supreme Authority by Simony , made a new Law concerning the Simoniacal Election of the Pope for the future ; whereby he ordain'd , That any Pope who after him should be Simoniacally elected , should be lookt upon as an Intruder , a Magician , a Publican , an Arch Heretic , and that he should by no means be acknowledg'd for a lawful Pope . But that Sixtus V , was chosen Simoniacally , is a thing which almost every Body knows . For that he might be elected , he bought the Suffrages of Cardinal d'Este , and the Cardinals depending upon him , and covenanted with him in a Writing drawn up and subscrib'd with his own Hand , that during his Pontificate , he would never make Jeronymo Matthei , who was de'Este's Enemy , a Cardinal , upon condition that by d'Este's means he obtain'd the Pontificate . Upon which being made Pope by d'Este and his Faction , he confess'd himself to be the work of his hands . However Sixtus forfeited his Faith to Him , and created Matthei Cardinal for all that ; which Cardinal d'Este took so ill , that he sent the Contract between him and Sixtus to Philip II , King of Spain , who in the Year 1589 , sent the Duke of Sessa his Extraordinary Embassador to Rome , to give Notice to Sixtus of his Intentions to call a General Council upon the Information of a Simoniacal Election , and to require the Cardinals created by the Predecessors of Sixtus , and other Ecclesiastics , to be present at a Council to be assembled at Sevil ; but because upon intimation of the Council Sixtus dy'd for Despair , the business went no farther . This is related in a certain Book , entitled Papatus Romanus , cap. 10. pag. 200 , &c. Seeing then that Sixtus was an Illegal and Simoniac Intruder , certain it is that the Papacy ceas'd in him ; so that they who succeeded were no true Popes , because they were elected by the Cardinals which he created ; who being Intruders , as created by a Simoniac , wanted Right of Election , as well according to the Council of Constance , as for that according to the Rule of the Lawyers , No Man can transfer more Right to another , then he has himself . And therefore the whole World ought not to be shut up in one City . Some are of Cephas , others of Paul , others of Clement ; let it suffice a Christian to be of Christ . Whoever fears God , and works Righteousness in whatever part of the World he is , is acceptable to God. If two or three are gathered together in the Name of Christ , he will be in the midst of them . The Supernal Jerusalem , which enjoys her Liberty , is the Mother of us all . We shall not be Judg'd by the Roman or Popes Communion , but by the Communion of Saints , and of Christ . Therefore we cannot be Schismatics , upon this just , necessary and sound Separation of ours . There are still remaining , Reverend Mr. Prior , some other Motives of yours to this rash Judgment which you give of us , which are now to be brought to the Touch with the rest . There are some who believe , a Posteriori , that we are deservedly to be listed among the number of the Damned , because we stand Excommunicated by the Pope and the Catholic Church : But in regard these Excommunications do not strike us , but either as Heretics or Schismatics , they do us no hurt , in regard we are neither Heretics nor Schismatics , as hath bin already shewn . If they are necessarily to be numbred among the Damned , whom the Pope has Excommunicated , of necessity all in Asia the less , who dy'd during the Excommunication of Victor upon the Paschal difference , must be by all Christians excluded from the Kingdom of Heaven ; and that the Sacraments , which you our Adversaries nevertheless will allow , preserve their Excellency by way of Physical Cause , and in general all Public Worship must be depriv'd of their Efficacy in all Provinces which are sometimes subject to Papal Interdiction . Nor ought we to pass over in silence that Observation of St. Jerom upon that place of Mat. 16. wherein the Keys of Heaven are promis'd to St. Peter . This Place ( saith the holy Man ) the Bishops and Presbyters not understanding , assume to themselves something of the Pride of the Pharisees , even to Damn the Innocent , and Absolve the Guilty ; whereas God regards not the Sentence of the Priest , but the Life of the Offender . But according to this Saying of St. Jerom , all Casuists and Canonists acknowledge that an unjust Excommunication is Invalid ; and that such an Excommunicate may both Administer and Receive the Sacraments with a good Conscience . An Excommunication without a just Cause , is not valid in the Interior Court ; therefore such a one may Celebrate , where it is no Scandal ( says the Jesuite Emanuel Sa , voce Excommunicat . § 4. But Toletus , lib. Instruct . Sacram. cap. 10. num . 7. more positively asserts , That there is no unjust Sentence of Excommunication can bind , either as to God , or as to the Church . But it is unjust ( as he says again § 1. ) from some defect ; which if it be Essential , makes it no Excommunication ; and then it is not to be dreaded , neither does it bind either in the Court of Heaven or Earth : Which he confirms by the Testimony of several Canonists . If therefore we are unjustly Excommunicated , and as the Schoolmen Phrase it , Clave Errante , or with an Erring Key , and that these Excommunications are of no force , Our Damnation cannot be inferr'd a Posteriori from such Sentences ; but that they are unjust and null , I shall easily demonstrate . An Excommunication is said to be null , says Toletus , ibid. § 4. if it contain an intolerable Error , &c. Now then a Sentence is said to contain an intolerable Error , when any one is Excommunicated ; because he does that which is Good in it self , or does not do that which is in its own act Unlawful . Why then are we Excommunicated ? Surely because we do that which is good in it self , applying our selves to the Word of God , and will not adhere to those who would have us to be wiser then the Scripture can make us , and refusing to do what is evil in it self , or at least what we judge in our Consciences to be so , and because we adhere not to a Worship unlawful and contrary to Scripture . An Excommunication is void , if it be pronounc'd by one already Excommunicated or Suspended from Jurisdiction , or Interdicted , or after a lawful Appeal , says Emanuel Sa , as above , § 1. And Toletus has the same words . Now such is the Excommunication which is thunder'd over our Heads . For it is long ago that the Bishops of Rome through their Simonies have according to the Canons incurr'd the Penalty of most dreadful Excommunications ; so that they are uncapable of all Jurisdiction . For an Excommunicate cannot exercise an act of Jurisdiction , without sinning ; nay , if it be a public Excommunication , all his Sentences are void , says Toletus , lib. 1. Inst . Sacerd. cap. 13. § 4. And who can question , since the first Punishment of a Simoniac is , ipso facto , Papal Excommunication , as Toletus asserts , lib. 5. cap. 93. but that he is notoriously and publicly Excommunicated , who is notoriously and publicly Simoniacal , as I have particularly made it appear of Sixtus V , who was nevertheless the Author of that Bull , entitled de Coena Domini , in the Form in which it is now Extant , whereby the Protestants are solemnly Excommunicated every year by the Pope ? To this I add , That they two can have no Jurisdiction over Us , who Curse us to the Pit of Hell , and so their Excommunications , tho' they two were lawful Bishops , are void . For if a Bishop cannot Excommunicate one that is out of his Diocese , or in a Priviledg'd Place , as Emanuel Sa affirms , as above , Sect. 12. By what Right does the Bishop of Rome pretend to Excommunicate us , who never belong'd to a Diocese ? Or to arrogate a general Jurisdiction and Authority over the whole Church of God , which he had never any thing to do with ? In a word , we value not their inconsiderate , unjust and void Excommunications . They are dull and silly Thunders that hurt no body . Such sort of Curses , God , for the benefit of his true Adorers , turns into Blessings , according to that of David , Psal . 109. ver . 23. From such Tempests the Damnation of the Protestants is no more to be inferr'd , then of theirs who formerly profess'd Christ , because the Scribes and Pharisees Excommunicated them after their Solemn manner . No less ridioulous are they who alledge , that the Protestants are therefore damn'd , because they profess a Religion which wants the Seal of Miracles . Truly you Romanists do very well to put us in mind of your Miracles . For most Learned Men of your Communion complain , that the Golden Legends of the Saints are stust with Fables , and Couterfeit Miracles , as you may read particularly in Melchior Canus , producing the Testimonie of Ludovicus Vives , lib. 2. Locor . cap. 6. Their Frauds and Impostures are everywhere obvious ; by which the saying of Lyranus upon Dan. 2. before the Reformation ; Sometimes there was in the Church a notorious Delusion of the People by Miracles counterfeited by the Priests and their Adherents for Temporal Gain . Those Imaginary Miracles , with which the Protestants were to be convinced , in regard they are Signs for Unbelievers , are not only very seldom wrought before us , but are many times said to be hindred by our presence . The Mexican and Japanic Prodigies , of which the Jesuites so loudly boast , are but Imaginations , since Acosta , Victoria and Canus expresly acknowledge , that no Miracles are wrought in India to promote Conversion . And Acosta denies that there is any use of Miracles there , lib. 6. proc . Ind. Salut . cap. 17. In those places ( says he ) there is no need of any more then good Works , and of shining so before Men , which the Natives beholding , may glorifie the Father which is in Heaven . : This is the most potent Miracle to persuade . But Francis Victoria , Relect. 5. Prop. 5. is of Opinion , That the Christian Faith is not so sufficiently preach'd to the Barbarians , that they should be bound to believe under New Sin : For I hear of no Miracles and Signs , no Examples of a Life so Religious , but of many Scandals , and many Impieties . Insomuch that Canus applies those idle Relations to the common Spanish Proverb , Long Ways , long Lies ; as if they might lie by authority , who tell Stories done or counterfeited in remote and distant Regions . So that if Xaverius the New Apostle of Japan , had had the Gift of Miracles , which is so easily believ'd of him , he ought chiefly then to have exercis'd his Gift in the Ship , which carry'd him from Malaca to Japan , where he was forc'd , nolens volens , To behold the Mariners sacrificing to an Image of the Devil , after the manner of their Country , and imploring the Answers of the Image touching the Success of their Voyage , which , as the Barbarians said and believ'd , were sometimes favourable , sometimes terrible . Nor would he have needed , had he receiv'd the Gift of working Miracles from Heaven , to have spent so much time in learning the Japan Language . The words of Xaverius are these ; So soon as we have obtain'd the assistance of Language , we hope that by the assistance of God the business will proceed much better ; for now we only converse among them like a sort of Images ( as not long ago , in the Tract of the Rhine , the Capuchin Marco de Aviano , to put off his Miracles , ran about , like a Barbarian , among the Germans , for no body understood what he said ) they talk much concerning us , and turn and look one upon another , while we are mute , and are constraind as it were to go to School again , till we have learnt the Elements of the Language . Is here , I beseech you , any Apostolic Character to be found ? Yet all these are Extant , Epist . lib. 1. Epist . Japan Adject . Com. Eman. Acosta , of the Transactions of the Jesuites in the East , and by Maffaeus the Jesuite , set forth at Delingtren , Anno Dom. 1571. The Epistle is written by Xaverius to the Society from Congoxima , on the First of November , 1549. Afterwards the same Maffaeus , for what reason I know not , left out this Epistle , from whence I faithfully transcrib'd the Quotations above-mention'd ; unless it were that he was asham'd of the Truth in his select Epistles written from India , which he added to his Indian History , Printed at Cologn , Anno Dom. 1589. Moreover , not to say any thing of the Work of Reformation begun and propagated , then which a greater Miracle can hardly be imagin'd , I would fain oppose the two following Observations to those that reproach us with want of Miracles . I. Miracles are not always among them , with whom they are wrought , as a mark of Truth , when Heathens and Heretics formerly could boast of Miracles , and many shall say to Christ in that day , Lord , have we not cast forth Devils , and wrought many Wonders in thy Name ? To whom he shall answer , Depart from me , for I know ye not , Mat. 7. 21 , 23. And there shall come false Christs and false Prophets , arm'd with Signs and Wonders , by which the Elect themselves , if it were possible , shall be seduc'd , Mat. 24. 24. Thus Allius Naevius , the Augur , cut a Whetstone with a Razor , in the view of all the People of Rome . And one of the Vestal Virgins , as a confirmation of her untainted Chastity , took up Water in a Sieve , and carry'd it away . And Claudia , another of the same Order , alone without any help , with her Girdle drew along the Ship which carry'd the Mother of the Gods , which many Mariners , hawling all together , could not stir . Plutarch also , in Coriolanus , relates that the Image of Fortune spoke ; and often , as the same Author relates , in the same Life , the Images and Statues were seen to Sweat , Bleed and Weep . St. Austin likewise tells us of many such Portents that happen'd among the Gentiles , lib. 10 de civitate Dei. Tacitus also . Hist . lib. 4. relates of Vespasian , that by his single Touch , he restor'd Sight to the Blind , and Strength to the Lame . Bellarmin . cap. 14. de Not. Eccles . That both their Diseases proceeded from the Devil , who having seiz'd the Eye of the one , and the Leg of the other , hindred the Use of their Limbs , to the end he might seem to heal when he ceas'd to hurt . I do not see why the Protestants may not use the same Exception against so many Miracles which the Romanists seign by the Touch either of their Images or their Reliques . But I shall here furl my swelling Sails , Mr. Prior , being ready to explain and enlarge my self , whensoever you shall be pleas'd to re-assume and examin this Matter . II. Miracles do not of necessity follow Truth . For tho' they were necessary in the time of Infant Christianity ; yet the true Religion being now establish'd and setled over all the World , if not manifestly profitable , they cease however to be absolutely necessary . So that St. Austin , lib. 2. de civitate Dei , with very great reason said , Whoever still enquires after Prodigies , to confirm his Belief , is himself a great Prodigy . I forbear any more ; let it suffice me only to produce the Fathers of the Second Nicene Council , act . 4. Why do our Images at this day work no Miracles ? I answer with the Apostle ; Miracles are not for Believers , but for the Vnbelievers . Now then if the Protestants embrace the Doctrin of Christ and his Apostles , the Miracles of Christ and his Apostles are sufficient for them : Which would be necessary again , were they to follow some new and never heard of Gospel before . Nor does the difference , whatever it is , between the Reform'd Churches and the Lutherans , whatever it be either in Ceremonies , or some Points of Doctrin , savour a jot more your precipitate Judgment concerning the Eternal Damnation of the Protestants . For you Romanists your selves acknowledge , that the Greek and Eastern Christians would be in the way of Salvation , would they but submit to the Empire of the Pope , tho' they retain'd their Ceremonies and Opinions differing in many Circumstances from the Rites and Doctrin of the Roman Church . It is apparent from the Epistle of St. Austin to Januarius , that all the Churches did not make use of the same Rites and Ceremonies . In the Apostolic Churches also , soon after the first dawn of Christianity , Disputes and Contentions arose ; to pass by those that fell out between Cyril and Theodoret , Chrysostom and Epiphanius , St. Jerom and St. Austin ; nay , between those very Men themselves that reproach the Lutherans and the Reformed with their differences , which I would to God they were clos'd up , There is the greatest difference among these Upbraiders , not only as to Ceremonials , as is apparent from so many Orders of Monks varying among themselves in Habit , Rules and Public Worship ; but also as to Opinions ; as is evident from those most terrible Controversies about which your Theologists most sharply contend and quarrel one with another ; of the Authority of the Pope above a Council ; of a Council above the Pope ; of the Infallibility of the Bishop of Rome ; of his Power over Kings and Secular Princes ; the Conception of the Blessed Virgin ; of the sort of Adoration due to the Cross and Images ; of Predestination , Grace , Free-will , and the like . So that the Doctors of your Communion split themselves into various Sects ; according to which some are Thomists , others Scotists , others Real , others Nominal , others love to be call'd Jansenists , and others Molinists . Nay , there is not any Article of the Christian Faith , about which you have not rais'd Contentions and Disputes , if not more sharp and eager , yet of no less moment then all those which are stirring between the Reformed and the Lutherans . And that diversity which you object against us , is far inferior to your Dissentions ; nor is it concerned in the Fundamentals of Christianity , in which the Reformed of both Parties are plainly agreed . So that it is a kind of Miracle , that there should be so little variance between so many Reformed Churches dispers'd all over Europe , compos'd of various People and under several Princes ; tho' among them there is no Church which commands over others , nor any intervening Political Tye to constrain them to such an Agreement in Matters of Faith. In the mean time , there is no Schism between ours and the Lutheran Churches , seeing that we neither separated from Them , nor they from Us. In Poland , the Brethren of the Helvetian , Bohemian and Augustan Confession , setting a laudable Example , communicated before together , by virtue of the Decree of Sendomir . And in the Year 1631 , in the National Synod of France , a Decree was made for admitting the Lutherans , as Brethren in Christ , and Members of the same Mystical Body to our Communion of the Lord's Supper , and for allowing them Brotherly Toleration in those Points wherein they differ from us . And tho' they in their Anger pretend that we Err in Fundamentals , which , through the Mercy of God , they will never be able to prove ; yet we judge more tenderly and better of them , so disproving the Opinions which they obstinately defend , that we deny them to be in themselves deadly or pernicious to Salvation ; or that they are such as ought not to hinder Christian Peace between us and them , or prevent an Ecclesiastical Communion which might be obtain'd between Churches not agreeing in all things , if the Foundation were sound . Now we believe that to be a Fundamental Error , wherein there is , according to the ancient Phrase of the Synagogue , a Denial of the Foundation , which cannot comply with true Faith and Holiness . For neither all Truths , even those that are reveal'd , are of the same necessity : Neither are all Wounds which are given to Truth , Mortal ; nor is every Disease , an Epelipsie or the Falling-sickness . St. Paul distinguishes between the Foundation and the Superstructure , 1 Cor. 3. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. He that meddles with Fundamentals , is lyable to an Anathema , Gal. 1. 8. In others there is room left for Exhortation , Rom. 14. 1. Phil. 3. 15 , 16. Here the Gnat is not scrupulously to be strain'd at , as there the Camel is not to be rashly swallowed . We break Friendship with those that are openly Wicked , but we bear with the blemishes and infirmities of Friends . Nor is that presently to be thought of the necessity of Faith , which yet may have a near Relation to it . And therefore you canot blame us for offering our Communion to the Lutherans , and rejecting the Papal . For that between us and them there is not only a Harmony in the Foundation of our Faith , and all the most solid and necessary Points of Christian Religion , but also in common Protestancy against the Idolatry , Tyranny and foul Errors of the Church of Rome ; both Sides impugning the Adoration of the Bread , Transubstantiation , Sacrifice of the Mass , Communion under One Kind , Justification by Works , Traditions not written , Purgatory , Worship of Images , Infallibility of the Pope , &c. So that it would be much better for us to arm our selves with mutual and brotherly forbearance against the continual Conspiracies of Antichrist , then to lay our Sides open to them through our unhappy Discords and Wars by which neither side can hope for Triumph . Far more absurd it would be to upbraid the Protestants with their small Number , or to infer their Damnation from that . For much more numerous is the Number of Christians under the four Patriarchs in the East , and the Great Duke of Muscovy and Russia , then of those who in the West adhere to the See of Rome . Without question the Number of the Orthodox was very small , at what time , as St. Jerom testifies , The whole World groan'd , and admir'd to see it self all Arian . Scarcity makes things valuable ; we are not to adhere to a multitude in Evil ; nor is the broad Way to be trod , but the narrow Path which leads to Life , not pervious to many . If we must be excluded from Salvation for the smallness of our Number ; By the same reason the Pharisees of old might have damn'd the Apostles , and the Heathens the Christians . In the mean time , they who reproach us with our small Number , and glory in their own Multitude , when they come to view the face of Europe , are compell'd to talk after another rate . Bellarmin . praefat . in Tom. 1. Controver . cannot restrain his fury . Who is ignorant ( saith he ) of that same Lutheran Pest ( for Truth was a Plague to the Seat of Pestilence , as Christ was the Death of Death , and a Pest to Hell ) that sprung up not long since in Saxony , and soon after over-ran almost all Germany ; then spreading to the North and East , delug'd all Denmark , Sweadland , Norway , Gothland , Pannonia , Hungary ; and then with equal rapidness shooting to the West and South , poyson'd all England , France and Scotland , flourishing Kingdoms once ; and at last crossing the Alps , extended it self even as far as Italy ? Nor are we to be condemn'd , because we call our selves Reformed or Protestants , rather then Catholics . For we were first call'd Protestants in the public Dyet at Spire , Anno Dom. 1529. because our Electors and Princes there protested against the Errors and Superstitions of the Romish Church , plainly in the fame sense as in the old Old Version of the 2 Chron. 24. 19. they who after the Death of Jehoiada oppos'd themselves against Idolatry , were mark'd out and differenc'd by the same Name . ; but those Idolaters would by no means give ear to the Protesters . So that there being no Satisfaction given to our Consciences upon that Protestation , deservedly we deserted that Communion , which we believ'd to be pernicious to our Salvation . Nor are we therefore to be thought to have deserted the Church : For , as St. Chrysostom says very remarkably , Hom. 46. in Mat. He does not separate from the Church who separates Corporeally , but he who Spiritually relinquishes the fundamental Truths of the Church . We have left them Locally ; They have forsaken us in Point of Faith : We in departing from them , have left the Foundation of the Walls ; They in forsaking us , have forsak'n the Foundations of Scripture . We are call'd Reformed , not because we reform'd the Religion deliver'd us by Christ and the rest of his Apostles ; but because we cleans'd it from the Rust of Abuses and Corruptions which that holy Religion had contracted through length of time , the Subtilty of Satan , and the Vices of Men. And this Reformation the People , the Princes and Magistrates , and those not a few , most earnestly and importunately long'd for all over Europe : So that the Tridentine Fathers , to satisfie the public Demands , at least in outward shew , were compell'd to add something of Reformation to every one of their Dogmatical Sessions . However we do not renounce these Names of Catholic Protestants , Reformed , or Lutherans , seeing that addition of Catholic belongs , of right , rather to Us then to you Romanists ; for that the Doctrin which we profess , is the Sincere , Orthodox and Catholic Doctrin of the Christian Church , as the Apostles deliver'd it from the Beginning . Reformed we are , in reference to the rejecting Abuses , and human Inventions ; but Catholics , as we retain the fundamental Articles of the Christian Religion . Nor can this Name suit with them from whom we have departed in any other respect , then as they retain some fundamental Truths , which as yet are common both to them and us ; but not in respect of their Additions and Traditions in which we dissent from them . In vain do you glory against us , of retaining this Name by Force . For , as Salvian of Marseilles says , lib. 4. de Provid . What is a holy Name without Merit , but an Ornament in the Dirt ? All the particular Assemblies of Heretics ( says Lactantius , lib. 4. Divin . Institut . cap. ult . ) believe themselves to be the chiefest Christians , and their Church to be the Catholic . The very Turks would be called Musselmanni , that , is the Faithful or Catholic ; but it suffices us to be really Catholics . Good leave therefore have you from us , O Romanists , to usurp this Name ; as we call the Saracens Mahumetans , who nevertheless derive not their Original from Sarah , as Sons of the Promise ; but from Agar , the Egyptian Bond-woman . Thus all the Prejudices and Foundations of your precipitate Judgment being repell'd and remov'd , Venerable Mr. Prior , you constitute at length the only Foundation of your Opinion upon this , That in regard that Ours is a new Religion , it is impossible we should gain Salvation by the Profession . But those things which now are old , were formerly new . The Christian Religion is at this day New to the Chineses and Japanners , nevertheless they ought not to reject it for that Reason . For this very sake of Novelty , the Heathens refus'd Christianity ; but in vain . There is nothing more Ancient then Truth , which beheld the true World in its Infancy : But false Religion , the Older it is , so much is it the more Mischievous . True it is , the Reformation which we profess , is New and newly done ; but the Rule of it , which is comprehended in the Word of God , is of great Antiquity ; according to which , whatever was added of Human Invention , is separated from the Orthodox and Catholic Doctrin , to the end that true and refin'd Antiquity might be retain'd . Hence the famous Peter Moulin , a Frenchman , in a large Treatise against Cardinal Perron has more then sufficiently demonstrated the Novelty of Popery , and the Antiquity of the Reformed Religion . Therefore our Religion cannot be call'd New , since that alone propounds to us things to be believ'd , which were believ'd by all Men , and every where from the Time of the Apostles , according to the Rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis , and produces over and above out of the Treasury of the Scripture , her most certain Documents : Where it is apparent , That all those things which we disprove in the Roman Communion , are really new and unknown to the Apostles and their Primitive Successors . It is a New thing , and never heard of by the Ancient Church , that the Christian People should be forbid the Use of the Cup in the sacred Eucharist . It was a New thing , that Boniface II , above Six hundred years after Christ , should be the first who call'd himself Vniversal Bishop , and Bishop of Bishops ; and long after him , that Gregory VII , or Hildebrand , should presume to lay violent hands upon the Rights of Emperors and Princes . Nothing Newer then the Papal Indulgences , which first gave occasion to the Modern Controversies at Wittembergh and Zurich ; Anthony Archbishop of Florence acknowledging , part . 1. Tom. 10. cap. 3. That as for Indulgences , we have nothing in the Scripture concerning them , nor from the Sayings of the Ancient Fathers ; and the Jesuite Valentia agreeing , cap. 5. de Indulg . That there were certain Catholics before Luther , ( of whose Opinion Thomas makes mention , part . 3. quest . 15. art . 5. ) who said , That Indulgences were pious Frauds . Moreover , that the Eucharist was celebrated of old without Communicants , no Man can find in the Writings of the Antients . The Adoration of Images was not establish'd till near Eight hundred years after Christ , in the Second Council of Nice ; and that so slenderly , that the Decrees of that petty Council were condemn'd and rejected in two Synods assembled at Paris and Frankford by Charles the Great . And tho' these Synods were only National , hence nevertheless it appears that all the Churches of Germany and France , of which Nations those Synods consisted , had not then admitted the Public Worship of Images . Nay , even George Cassander infers from St. Austin upon Psal . 113. That Images and Statues were not set up in Churches in St. Austin's time . Moreover Bellarmin reports of Scotus , That he did not believe Transubstantiation to be an Article of Faith before the Lateran Council ; that is , before Five hundred years ago . The Law of Celibacy , enjoyn'd the Clergy and the Priests , is a very New thing , and to which the Clergy of Leige and the Germans would not yield Obedience till about Five hundred years since . At length Calixtus II , who was created Pope in the Year 1119. constraind them all to submit , which produc'd these Verses upon him : O bone Calixte , jam omnis Clerus odit , te , Quondam Presbyteri poterant uxoribus uti , Hoc destruxisti , postquam tu Papa fuisti , Ergo tuum nomen merito habent odio . The Clergy hate thee , Good Calixtus , why ? The Presbyters of old with Wives did lye ; This thou destroy'dst , when thou wer 't Pope created , Therefore thy Name is now deserv'dly hated . The Apostles never knew what Monkish retirement meant , which came into the World about Three hundred years after Christ , under Antony and Paul ; but the Church was utterly ignorant of Monkish Beggery , till the times of Francis and Dominic , who , as all Men know , were but of late years . I will not undertake here to unravel your whole History , otherwise there would appear very little of Antiquity in it . For all those Opinions of the Romish Church which we have rejcted , are not only new , but so new , that as the Abuses multiply'd , they were dislik'd and reprov'd by all good Men long before Luther's time ; among whom there were some , who being offended at such kind of Innovations , and consulting the good of their Consciences , openly deserted your Communion ; as the Wicklevians in England , the Hussites in Germany , the Waldenses or Albigenses in France and Germany , whose public Confessions are at this day Extant , conformable to Ours in the principal Heads . Nor can I forbear to add in this place a remarkable Testimony concerning the Waldenses ( whose Names for above Six hundred years has bin terrible to the Roman See ) given by one Rainer , an Inquisitor of the Faith against them , about Three hundred years ago , and not long since publish'd by Gretser the Jesuite : Among all the Sects ( says that same Rainer ) that are or ever were , there is not any one more pernicious to the Church ( meaning the Roman ) then that of the Poor of Lyons ( meaning the Waldenses ) for Three Reasons . First , because more lasting ; for some say , that it has bin ever since the time of Silvester , and others deduce it from the time of the Apostles . Secondly , because more general ; for there is hardly any Country into which this Sect has not made a shift to creep . Thirdly , because all others are abominable to God for the Immanity of their Blasphemies , but this of the Waldenses only carries with it a great shew of Piety ; because they live justly before Men , and believe truly of God , and all the Articles of the Creed , only they blaspheme and hate the Roman Church . But so much for Them. Thus , Mr. Prior , you have what , as I was willing , so it was my desire to Answer to your insipid and inconsiderate Letter . Do you see by what has bin said , that you have violated the Divine , Civil and Public Laws of the Instrument of the Peace of Munster ; nay , which should first have bin said , against the Rules of Christianity , which proscribes and abominates all such Censures of our Neighbour worse then a Dog or Snake ? What now remains of Counsel or Remedy for such an unjust Judge ? I will tell you : Implore of God , and beseech your injur'd Neighbor , through whose sides you have wounded such infinite numbers of Christians , to forgive you , and to pardon these Transgressions of yours that are of so great weight . Endeavour industriously for the future , like the smitten Fisherman , to Traffic at a better rate , and to be transform'd by renovation of Mind to this , that you may be able better to prove , what is the good Will of God so pleasing and so perfect . Beware of being wiser then it becomes you to be ; and with an unfeigned Charity for the future , detest so wicked and perverse a Judgment , adhering to that which is more solid ; and if it may be , as much as in you lyes , live at Peace with all Men , that you may not be overcome by Evil , but may overcome Evil by Good. This pious and sincere Counsel if you slight and disregard , through Contumacy and Despising it , assuredly there will nothing more certainly befal you then this , That being depriv'd of Eternal Felicity ( I repeat your own words ) after you have finish'd this Mortal Course , you will for ever burn with your Seducers in the Everlasting Fire of Hell. From which however the Great God of his infinite Mercy preserve you . Amen . Farewel , and instead of a New-Years-Gift , meekly and with patience accept this wholsom Answer and Admonition , more precious then Gold , or all the Kingdoms of the World. Live soberly , and live eternally the Favourer of him who is Visitor of the County of Weeden . Most desirous of your Salvation , John Herman Dalhusius , FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A35885-e250 The Inscription . Notes for div A35885-e1680 2 Cor. 13. 8. Tit. 1. 9. Gal. 6. 9 , 10. Phil. 1. 6 , 11 , 14 , 27 , 28 , 29. James 1. 2 , 12. Apoc. 2. 10. 2 Tim. 4. 6 , 7 , 8 1 Tim. 1. 17. Notes for div A35885-e2420 The usual gruonds of the Papists uncharitable Judgment . 1. Of Protestants bounding God's Omnipotence Apud Bellarm. de Euchar. l. 3. c. 5. Whether Protestants teach that God is the Author of Sin. Concerning Christ's Despair on the Cross . Of Protestants being Enemies to the Blhssed Virgin and Saints Of Protestants being Enemies to Chastity , Sobriety , &c. Whether Protestants be Heretics . Whether Protestants be Sehismatics . Concerning want of Miracles among Protestants . Concerning the Differences of Protestants among themselves . Concerning the Number of Protestants who do not submit to the Church of Rome . Of the Newness of the Reform'd Religion . 
A26998	----	The Protestant religion truely stated and justified by the late Reverend Mr. Richard Baxter ; prepared for the press some time before his death ; whereunto is added, by way of preface, some account of the learned author, by Mr. Danel Williams and Mr. Matthew Sylvester. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1692 Approx. 262 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 114 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26998 Wing B1359 ESTC R1422 12626719 ocm 12626719 64665 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A26998) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64665) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 344:4) The Protestant religion truely stated and justified by the late Reverend Mr. Richard Baxter ; prepared for the press some time before his death ; whereunto is added, by way of preface, some account of the learned author, by Mr. Danel Williams and Mr. Matthew Sylvester. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. Williams, Daniel, 1643?-1716. Sylvester, Matthew, 1636 or 7-1708. [13], 185, [3] p. Printed for John Salusbury ..., London : 1692. An answer to: The touchstone of the reformed Gospel / Matthew Kellison. First ed., edited by Williams and Sylvester. Cf. NUC pre-1956. Errata: p. 185. Advertisements: p. [3] at end. Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library. Contents is lacking in filmed copy. Pages 170-end photographed from Union Theological Seminary Library, New York copy and inserted at the end. 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Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2005-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-02 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-02 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-02 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE PROTESTANT Religion TRUELY STATED AND JUSTIFIED : By the late Reverend Mr. RICHARD BAXTER , Prepared for the Press some time before his Death . Whereunto is added , By way of Preface , some Account of the Learned Author : By Mr. Danel Williams , and Mr. Matthew Sylvester . LONDON , Printed for John Salusbury at the Rising Sun over against the Royal Exchange in Cornhill , 1692. TO THE READER . THE Author of the following Tract is the Reverend Mr. Baxter , now enjoying that Glory he so conversed with in his mortal state . Among his many Excellencies , his Love to God , to Peace , and Truth , was not the least eminent . The last rendred him averse to Logomachies and confusion ; well knowing , How vain all eristick debates be , if the Question be not truly and plainly stated . This Book will give thee a Specimen of that peculiar accuracy in this kind , as even determineth the Controversie before an Argument be produced . It is not to be concealed , that some complain of the multitude of his distinctions ; but such may consider , that the Comprehensiveness of his Mind accommodated things to the most subtil , as well as the less intelligent Reader ▪ and provided against future Errours , as well as the mistakes he attends to in the particular points before him . Indeed he was a man born for more lasting service than one Age ; yea , his Name will be greatest , when impartial inquisitiveness after Truth shall render men painful ; and sad experience of the mischief of narrow and dividing Principles hath forced the confident to mutual allowances , and well studied determinations . But how unhappy was he ( or rather such as mistake him ) that he is oft charged with deserting this or that Truth , because he understood it in a consistency with it self , and such other truths wherewith it was connected . As if Ort hodoxie must be sacrificed when-ever a Doctrine is made intelligible ; or the choice of terms more apt to confute the erroneous , less obnoxious to mistakes , and most expressive of digested thoughts , ought to alarm all such , who seem capable to know little more of Truth than the sound of oft repeated Phrases . Nay , as more convincing what treatment any man must expect , who sets himself to heal a blind depraved World ; The clearest representation of his mind will not silence the ignorant from charging him with those Errours which he most expresly disowns . Three of the most material are denied and confuted by Mr. Baxter in this very Treatise , viz. the moral freedom of the Will of an unregenerate man , conditional Election , and the merit of good Works as opposed to , or coordinate with the Righteousness of Christ . Neither must it be over-look'd , that it was his Concern in this Book above any other , to speak as near to these points as his Judgment could admit ; and in other Treatises he more largely declares against them . 1. Of Free-Will , p. 87. he tells us , he denies that mans Will in his unregenerate state is free from vitious inclination , or from the conduct of an erring Intellect , or from the Biass of Sensuality , &c. 2. He denies that the Will thus vitiated , will ever deliver it self without Gods Spirit and Grace , it being rather inclined to grow worse . 3 As that degree of common Grace , which is in the unregenerate , is but such as consisteth with the predominant Reign of Sin ; so the Will of every unregenerate man in that pravity , is as a Slave to its own vitious dispositions , errour , and temptations . Who can say more against Free-Will ? Obj. But he affirms the natural freedom of the Will. Answ . He doth so , and explains it , p. 84 , 85 , 86 , 91. and it is no more than that a Sinner is a man still , tho' he be depraved ; and he is a liberal , and not a forced Agent in what he acteth . Obj. But he saith , p. 88. That by common Grace a man may do more good and less evil than he doth . Answ . It 's true , he saith so . But , p. 85. he distinguisheth between common and special Grace , and denies that we can do that by common Grace , which is proper to special Grace : and saith , men have but just so much , and no more moral Liberty , and power , as they have of Gods Grace to relieve their vitiated Wills. See p. 91. 2. Of Conditional Election , p. 99. He condemns the Notion called Scientia Media : p. 100. he saith , God decreeth not mens Salvation , or Sanctification , meerly on Foresight of our Faith : but decreeth our Faith it self . Sin he permitteth , but Faith he effecteth , and decreeth to effect : and p. 101. he shews , how God decreeth both the means and end . And tho' God justly denieth his Grace to many that forfeit it by wilful resistance and contempt ; yet he takes not the Forfeiture of the Elect. Yea he adds , That he is deceived , and wrongeth God , that feigneth him to send his Son to redeem the World , and his Word to call them , and his Spirit to renew them ; and all this at random , not knowing whether it may not all be lost ; or leaving it chiefly to the Free-Will of them , whose Wills are contrarily inclined and vitiated ; whether Christ and all his preparations shall be lost : p. 102. he approveth the plain Christian who holds that our destruction is of our selves , but our help and Salvation of God ; and God is the first and chief Cause of all good , and men and Devils of all evil . Obj. But he will not say , that God hath by his Will and Decree ordained from Eternity that men shall sin , or will and chuse evil , p. 100 , & 101. God doth not decree that men shall sin , that they may be damned ; for sin is no work of God , &c. Answ . But yet he saith , p. 100. that , 1. God decreeth who shall de damned for sin . 2. That he foresaw mens sins , not as an idle Spectator , but a willing Suspender of his own Acts , so far as to leave Sinners to their self-determining Wills. Reader , if thou art a man of thought , thou seest Mr. Baxter is clear for absolute Election , tho' he did not think it necessary for the vindication thereof to judge , that God absolutely decreed men to sin , that he might damn them : it 's enough , that it is from Gods Sovereign Will , that many are not elected ; it would be an ease to the damned , that they could justly say , God decreed us to all our sins , that he might bring us under all this punishment , a Non-election to Efficacious Grace , and a positive Decree to damn such for sin , which themselves would choose , best suited with his Conceptions of Gods Goodness , Truth , and Purity . 3. Of the Merit of good Works : Note , Reader , that he is not fond of the word Merit , but his Adversary leads him to the use of it , as thou mayst see p. 96. But let us hear what his sence is of this point : p. 119. All Saints are saved by the full sufficient Merits of Christ , and have none at all of their own , unless the amiableness of Grace freely given them , be called their Merit ; and , p. 95. we do with Paul renounce all Works of our own , that are thought to make the reward to be of Debt , and not of Grace ; and that are set in the least opposition , or competition with Christs Merits , or in any place , save commanded subordination to him : nay , he says he firmly holds , That Works done with a conceit of obliging God by Merit in commutative Justice , or as conceited sufficient without a Saviour , and the pardon of their failings , do more further their Damnation , than Salvation . Yea , p. 97. none but Christ merited of strict distributive Justice , according to the Law of Innocency , nor by any Works that will save from the charge of sin , and desert of death . And that thou mayest know what he ascribes to our Graces , Holiness , or Works : He tells us , p. 119. we mean by Merit but the moral aptitude for the reward of a free Benefactor , who also is Rector , when the ordering of a free gift suspended on official conditions , is sapientially made a means of procuring obedience . This one Clause , if understood ( and he is a bold Traducer of so great a Man , that cannot understand words so plain ) will acquit Mr. B. and inform thee of the place of all Gospel - Conditions . 1. All Gospel-blessings are the free gifts of Christ as Benefactor , they have their being without any regard to what we do , therefore nothing in man is a jot of the righteousness or merit for which they are bestowed . 2. Christ is our Rector or Governor , he will rule us as well as be beneficent to us . 3. As a means to incline us to comply with him as Rector , he suspends these blessings on terms of what he makes our Duty ; and wisely orders them as Motives to our Obedience . 4. Any Act of our Obedience is no more than a conformity to that Order of his , and doth not hinder all we receive from him to be of free gift . Obj. But he saith , that good Works are necessary to Salvation . Answ . He doth so , and how few deny it ? But , 1. Not if a man dye as soon as he be converted ; but if he have time , p. 94. 2. Their rewardableness is by Gods free Grace , and Promise , for the sake of Christs meritorious Righteousness , Sacrifice , and Intercession ; their imperfection being pardoned , and their holiness amiable through him : These are his words , p. 76. 3. He saith ; Not without or as a supplement to the Sacrifice , Merits , and free Grace of Christ our Saviour , and Faith in him , p. 93 , 75. And we give our selves to Christ , as our Prophet , Priest , and King , to be saved by his Merits , p. 94.4 . He saith , our best Works will not save a man from the charge of sin , and desert of death , p. 97. 5. He denies that external Obedience is necessary to our admission into a justified state , as he shews in the Thief on the Cross . And when he saith , we are justified by our Faith , Godliness , and Works ; Justification is not taken by him for the pardon of sin , which he ascribes wholly to the Merits of Christ ; but he takes Justification there for our acquittance against the accusation that we are Infidels , Ungodly , and Hypocrites . And saith , that against the charge , that we are Sinners , deserving Hell , we are justified by Christ believed in , p. 94. His meaning is plainly this , Christ alone by his Merits forgives our sins , and purchased eternal Life for us . But seeing that Christ hath promised to forgive none but the penitent Believer , and declared he will destroy all impenitent , unbelieving , ungodly sinners : Now he thinks , that we must be truly acquitted , that we are not such , or we shall not be saved by Christ : Yea , he thinks , that when God justifies a man for Christs Merits , he doth also declare a man to be a true Believer ; because he will justifie no other , and will justifie all such ; and when God admits a man into Glory , he doth even thereby adjudge him a believing , penitent , holy , and upright man ; and free from the charge of being an infidel , hypocritical , unholy Enemy ; against whom the Gospel denounceth Vengeance and bars relief . Let these things be weighed , and none will wonder that he should say on his sick bed , No works , I will leave out works , if he grant me the other : And truly , in health none spake more humbly of his own Works than he used to do . But because some confident weak persons have inferred from that passage , that he changed his Principles when he came to dye ; we shall inform thee , that after that passage was utter'd by him , even the night before his death , Mr. Baxter was asked , whether he was of the same sentiments , as formerly , about Justification ? He answered , That he had told the World sufficiently his thoughts about it by several Writings , and otherwise ; and thither he referr'd them . And after a little pause , with his Eyes lifted up to Heaven , he cryed , Lord , pity , pity , pity the Ignorance of this poor City . And in the time of his sickness he declared to us and others , that his thoughts in these things were the same as formerly . Our regards to Mr. B. force the Publication of what we here insert ; tho' we would not be judged so happy , as to arrive at his Light , to lead us to a full Agreement with all his Sentiments . As to this Book , we wish there be not still great need of such helps against Popery ; and we are assured it will give more light than some greater Volumes on this Subject : That God may render it useful , shall be the Prayer of Thy Servants in the Gospel , Daniel Williams . Matthew Sylvester . Protestant Religion Truly Stated , and Justified , &c. THE Deceiver calleth his Book The Touchstone of the Reformed Gospel , as if he owned a Gospel distinct from that of the Reformed Church . And he undertakes to name fifty two points , which the Protestants affirm , but tells you not where , nor proveth his affirmation , but you must believe him as a Touchstone of Truth . Dec. The first Protestant affirmation feigned , is , That there is not in the Church One , and that an infallible Rule for understanding the Holy Scripture , and conserving of Vnity in matters of Faith. Answ . A meer Lye , if he mean that this is any part of Protestant Doctrine ; but he may find as crude confused words , in some ignorant person that is called a Protestant . The Reformed Catholicks hold , that there is in the Church one , and that an infallible Rule for understanding the holy Scripture , and conserving of Vnity in matters of Faith. ] And that Rule is , [ The Evidence of its own meaning as inherent in its self , discernible or intelligible by men prepared and instructed , by competent Teaching and Study , and the necessary help of Gods Grace and Spirit . ] This is that Rule . But the Reformed believe not 1. That there is any Rule by which ignorant , prejudiced , heretical , wilfully blind , wicked , uncapable men can understand such Scripture , as they are hereby undisposed to understand , unless by a great change made on themselves . Nor that any Prince can make a Statute , which on Man can misunderstand , abuse or violate . 2. Nor that Men can understand it without teaching , and that sound teaching , nor by hearkening to Erroneous Deceivers . 3. Nor that the Slothfull , that will not meditate on it , can understand it , tho' they have the soundest teachers . 4. Nor that Novices can understand as much in a short time and small Study , as aged long exercised Students . 5. Nor that wicked proud men , that forfeit Gods help , can savingly understand it without his Grace and Spirit . 6. Nor that any man , how holy soever , perfectly understandeth every word in the Scriptures . 7. Nor that a person may not be fallible , and deceived , that yet knoweth which is the Infallible Rule : It maketh not all Infallible that know it . 8. Nor that any Church , or any Number of Christians on Earth have such a Vnity as consisteth in perfect knowledge and agreement in all matters of Faith , that is , of Scripture-record from God. 9. Nor that God hath tyed this Infallible Regulation to the Bishop of Rome , or made him this Rule ; seeing no such word of God is extant , and General Councils have condemned Popes of Heresie , Infidelity , Ignorance , and most brutish lust and wickedness . 10. Nor that the Judgment of the major part of Christians or Bishops is the Infallible Rule ; for 1. The Papal part are but a third part : And they will hardly believe that the other two or three parts ( Abissines , Egyptians , Syrians , Armenians , Georgians , Circassians , Greeks , Muscovites , Protestants ) are the Infallible rule . 2. And if they met in an equal Council , they that are most out of the Council , would be the most in it . And Ephes . 2. and many others now condemned , have had the Major part . And Chrysostom that thought that [ few Bishops or Priests were saved , ] thought not the greater number to be the infallible Rule . 11. And Pope and Councils agreeing are not that Infallible rule ; for two fallibles makes not one infallible , nor two Knaves one honest Man. Popes and Councils have oft condemned one another ; yea , they have oft agreed in evil , as did that at Laterane the 4th . under Innocent the 3d. that decreed the deposition of Princes , that exterminate not all that renounce not all Senses and Humanity ; for those that have led into the Churches of the West all the horrid Errors of Rome , to pretend yet that they are the Infallible rule of understanding Scripture , is Impudency quite beyond that of Satan himself . 12. If this Deceiver hold what is contrary to his accused Protestant Opinion , he must condemn the Church of Rome , that agreeth not of the sense of a thousand Texts of Scripture , Horseloads of Commentators , and Cartloads of School-contenders , contradicting one another : And he that will say that all revealed in Scripture is not matter of Faith , reproacheth God , as revealing that which is not to be believed . All matters of Faith are not essential to Christianity , but some are only for the perfection of it : All is matter of Faith that we are bound to believe as Divine Revelation . All the Scripture is such , thô the ignorant must have time and help to understand it , and explicitely receive it . The Popes themselves ( e. g. Sixtus Quintus , and Clem. 8. ) have differed in many hundred Texts about the very Latine Translation . Many hundred Volumes of Controversies among them , tell us how far they are from ending Controversies , and agreeing in all matters of Faith : But in so much as is necessary to Salvation , all serious believing Protestants , or Reformed Catholicks , are agreed . Now , to trouble the Reader with the proof of any of these twelve particulars , would be but to abuse Time and him ; as to prove that no Man is perfect , and he that saith he hath no sin , is a Lyar : and to prove that the grand Deceivers of the Church are not Infallible , and that Gods Word is not unevident and unintelligible , and that such Villains as their own Councils and Historians say many Popes were , speaks not more intelligibly and wisely than God ; and that the Volumes of Canons and Priests Writings are not of more evident meaning than Gods Word ; these need proof to none but those that are uncapable of it . What Rule is there for the Infallible understanding the sence of all our Statute Laws ? none but what I mentioned . The intelligible evidence in the words , ( what else are words used for ) to men duely instructed and studyed . The Judges govern by deciding particular causes by the Law , but are not an Infallible Rule for all Men to understand the true sence of the Law by , ( while Judges and Parliaments differ from each other , as Popes and Councils did . ) The Texts cited by the Deceiver , are so vilely abused , as if he purposed but to make sport by taking Gods Word in vain . Point 2. Accused , [ That in matters of Faith we must not rely on the Judgment of the Church , and of her Pastors , but only on the written word . Ans . The Deceiver would Cheat the Ignorant by Confusion ; and belying the Reformed Catholicks : for , 1. It 's false , that the Reformed hold any of this undistinguishing Assertion . They distinguish between humane Faith and Divine . ( And I hope , God and Man may be distinguished . ) They say that it must be a Divine Faith ( that is , The Belief of Gods word for the Infallible Veracity of God ) that must save us , and not the belief of Man alone : But that a humane Faith is needful in Subserviency to a Divine . God hath appointed humane Teachers to the Flocks , and Oportet discentem Credere ; He will never learn , that will believe nothing on his Teachers Credit . But he must believe Man but as Man , an imperfect , fallible Creature , yet as like to know more than he that chooseth him for his Teacher ; And that which Man is to teach us , is to see the Evidence of Gods own Word , that we may believe it for that Evidence , as our Teachers themselves must do . For if the Teachers do but believe one another , and not God , ( or God only for Man's Authority , ) this is not Religion , nor Divne Faith , but humane , such as they had that believed Pythagoras , Plato , Mahomet , &c. If Boys learn of their School-Master to understand the Greek or Latin Testament , and believe them as to Sence , this is not Divine Faith , but a help towards it . The word of God is Infallible : And by the help of fallible Men , ( such as disagreeing Commentators be , ) we are furthered for understanding it . But false bloody Usurpers are not the likest to teach us the Truth , nor fittest to be trusted . His Citations of Scriptures , ( to mistated Controversies , ) are so putidly impertinent , that I am ashamed to detect them by words , which every Man may do . The Third accused Point . That the Scriptures are easy to be understood , and therefore none are to be restrained from Reading them . Ans . Meer Cheat to the Ignorant , by confusion and falshood . 1. We and all Papists with us agree , ( the more is the Guilt of the Deceivers Fraud , ) that some of the Scripture is easy to be understood , and is actually understood by all true Christians , even all that is essentsal to Christianity , and necessary to Salvation . Bellarmine , Castrus , and many others , tell us , that for all that , the Scripture is plain and sufficient : Yea , so it is , in many Thousand particular Texts : If this be not so , let this Man tell us if he can , how it cometh to pass , that Papists , Greeks , and Protestant Commentators agree of the meaning of most of the Scripture , ( perhaps of Nineteen Texts in Twenty , ) if it be not plain . But do Protestants say , that there is nothing in the Scripture hard to be understood ? the Father of Lyes will scarce affirm this of them , lest their Commentaries and Controversies shame him . 2. But what ? Must the people be forbidden to Read Gods Word , because some passages are dark ? Why not also forbidden to Read Statutes , Canons , Fathers , Jesuits , Fryars , and the Loads of Papists Controversies ? Is there nothing hard in all these Volumes ? what not in all the Canons ? In all Chrysostom , Austin , Cyril , & c ? In all Lombard , Aquinas , Bonaventure , Scotus , Ockam , Cajetane , and all the Tribe ? In all Suarez , Vasquez , Huctado , Albictine , & c ? In all Cajacius , and his Tribe ? Why are not these forbidden ? Do but rub your Foreheads , and tell me , 1. Whether the Law was not darker than the Gospel ? and yet God charged them , Deut. 6. and 11. To teach the words to their Children , and that lying down , and rising up , at home and abroad ; and to write them on ▪ the posts of their Houses , and their Gates : And every blessed Man , ( Psal . 1. ) was to delight in the Law of the Lord , and meditate in it Day and Night ? Read Psal . 119. 2. Whether Christ did not Preach the words Recorded in the Gospel to the unlearned common people ; and Peter and Paul , and all the Apostles , to all the vulgar Jews and Gentiles ? 3. Whether they writ not their Recorded Epistles to the Vulgar , even to all the Churches ? 4. Whether it is not Gods Word that we must all be Ruled and Judged by , and is the Charter of our right to Heaven ? and should we be forbid to read it ? 5. Whether Hierom , Chrysostom , Austin , and all the Fathers , do not press Men and Women of all Ranks , to read or learn , and study the Scriptures ? 6. Whether he be not like Antichrist , that will forbid Men to read that , which God sent his Son from Heaven to Preach , and Christ appointed Apostles , Pastors , and Teachers , to communicate to all the World ? 7. Whether the Prince of Darkness and Pride himself , would not be ashamed openly to say , I have so much skill to speak Intelligibly , and God so little , that you must read my Books , and not read his ? And whether Popes and Priests Volumes are not as unskilfully written , as Gods , and as like to draw Men to Heresie and Sin ? 8. Whether he that thus Condemneth God and his Law , and extolleth Man's , be like to make good his accusation at God's Barr ? Alas ! must such things as these be disputed by Men that would be our Infallible Rule ? 9. Either the knowledge of God's Word is needful , or not . If not , why did God write part of it himself ? And send his Son to Preach it ? And his Spirit in his Prophets and Apostles to write and Record it ? Are blind Worms fit to accuse God of Folly , and needless Work ? Can Men obey God's Law that know it not ? But if the knowledge of it be needful to our Obedience and Salvation , ask common Reason , whether the Difficulties should not rather oblige us to read and study it so much the more , ●till we understand it , rather than not to read it at all ? Do their ductile Followers that read it not , understand it better than those that study it Day and Night ? The less we know of needless things , the better and quieter we are : If God's Law and Gospel be such , what a God and Governour have we ! Can Heathens and Turks Blaspheme him more , than to take him for so foolish a Governour of the World , as to make a stir by his Son from Heaven , and by Angels and Prophets , to give them so needless , yea , pernicious a Law and Gospel , as that Men must be kept from reading it , lest it Poyson them with Heresie ? 10. Is it not essential to him that relatively we take for our God , to be the Governour of the World , and to be our Saviour , and the Holy Ghost to deliver and Seal the Gospel as glad Tidings to all Nations ? And is it not by his Law that God Governeth , and by his Gospel that Christ Saveth , and the Holy Ghost doth illuminate and Sanctifie ? And doth not that Man or Clergy then put down God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , and set up themselves in the stead , who forbid the reading of God's Law and Gospel , and Command the knowledge and observance of their own , Canons and Dictates instead of them , as more Intelligible and safe ? And is not this ( as Robert Grosthead told Innocent 4. ) next the Sin of Lucifer and Antichrist , or rather plain Antichristianism it self ? 11. Is the Stage manner of Massing liker to make the people understand God's Law and Gospel , ( by multitudes of Gestures , Motions , Crossings , Ceremonies , that need long Expositions , that overwhelm the strongest Memories , ) than the reading and study of the plain and full words of God in Scripture ? 12. Did this Deceiver ever hear Protestants say , that the Apocalypse , and Daniel , and Ezekiel , and the Canticles , and the Chronologies of Scripture , are all easy to be understood ? For if he have heard such a Fool , did he ever read this in the Confessions of any Church ? Do not their Commentaries tell the difficulty ? And ask this Man or his fellow Creature , whether the Infallible Pope , or Councils , have overcome all these difficulties to the Papists , and made all this easy to them ? Or do not their Valuminous disagreeing Commentaries , and Controversies , shew that they are still as hard to them as to us . 13. And ask them whether Pope , or Council , have ever yet written an Infallible Commentary on the Bible , or all such difficult Texts ? If not , is it because they cannot , or because they will not ? And what the better then is their Church for their feigned skill and power , infallibly to decide difficult Scripture Controversies ? What can be more shameless than this pretence , in Men that will not do it , nor ever did ? 14. And if still they tell you ; that the people were always bound to believe and obey the Churches Rites , without dispute or Contradiction ; ask them whether it was not the Church Rulers that killed Christ , and called him a Blasphemer and Deceiver , and that Persecuted and accused the Apostles ? And whether the People were bound to believe them , ( as Jewish Papists , ) and whether all the Apostles and Christians were Rebels and Hereticks , for not believing them ? And whether it was not for the Sins of Priests and Princes , and the peoples complying with them , that God by his Prophets reproved the Israelites , and at last forsook them to Captivity , 2 Chron. last . Jer. 5 last . 15. And if they tell you of the Peoples need of Teachers , tell them that that is none of the Controversie . But whether their Teachers must teach them to understand God's Book , or to throw it away ? May not the Teacher and the Book , consist together ? Must School-Boys be forbid to Learn their Grammar , because they must have a Teacher ? Must he teach them the Book , or teach them without Book ? But all the Craft is , to get all the World to take only such Cheaters as this for their Masters , and then Bible or no Bible may serve turn . 16. Is it not the Office of Teachers to Translate God's Word into known Tongues , that the People may understand it ? This is the first part of Preaching it : If not , why do they use Translations in the Church of Rome , the Septuagint ▪ and the Vulgar Latin ? And why did Sixtus 5th . and Clem. 8. make such a stir to Correct the Latin ? And why do so many Comment on them ? And the Rhemists turn it into English ? But what is all this for , but to help Men to understand the Book ? 17. Doth not all the Word of God cry down Ignorance , and cry up Knowledge , from End to End ? And what Knowledge is it , but Divine , of the Word and Law of God ? What else is the scope of all the first Nine Chapters of Solomons Proverbs , and of Psal . 1. 19. and 119 , &c. God saith , Hos . 4. 6. My People perish for lack of knowledge : And Isa . 27. 11. It is a people of no understanding , therefore he that made them will not save them . Ignorance and Blindness are made the common cause of Errour , Sin and Misery . But we are so far from taking all parts of Scripture to be equally necessary to be understood , that we are more than the Papists for first and most diligently teaching them the Essentials , the Creed , Lord's Prayer , and Commandments , and Baptism , and Church Communion , and the Lord's Supper , and lesser parts as they grow up ; what they must learn first their Teachers must instruct them . 18. If he say , as they still do , that the Ignorant will misunderstand the Scripture , and every one turn it to his own Fancy , and Heresie : I answer , The way to prevent this , is to teach it them diligently , ( what else is the Ministry for ? ) and not to forbid it them . Every Knave may pervert the Law of the Land to maintain his own ill Cause ; and must the Law therefore be forbidden them ? Reason is far more commonly abused than Scripture : There is no Heresie , or Error , no Villany , Perjury , Cruelty , Persecution , Oppression , or Injustice , but Reason is pleaded for it : Must Reason therefore be renounced ? Heresies are for want of understanding God's word ; and must be cured by understanding it . 19. And if all the World must take the Popes or Priests words , instead of Gods , or for their Rule , how shall those in Aethiopia , Syria , America , or here , know what the Popes Word is ? That never see him , or any that hath seen him ? And how shall we know , when above twenty times there have been two Popes at once , which of them is the Right ? And when they contradict and Damn each other , which of them must we believe ? And when General Councils accuse them of Errour , and Condemn them , which is to be trusted with our Souls ? Or if it be Councils that must be to us instead of Scripture , when they Damn each other , which must we believe ? ( And so abundance of them have done . ) When the Pope and they agreed to depose Christian Princes , and give away their Dominions , and disoblige their Subjects from all their Oaths of Allegiance , is it as true as the word of God , that all Subjects must believe and obey them ? But how shall all the poor People know what the Pope and Councils say and hold ? They can neither read their Volumes , nor understand them , nor know which are authentick and true ? Must they all believe their Parish Priest ? What if he be as very a Deceiver as the writer of this Touchstone , that doth but Cheat from the beginning to the end ? Yet must we take his word instead of Gods ? Or when other Priests , or Fryars contradict him , which of them must we believe ? What if his Parishoners know him to be ignorant , or a common Lyar ? Yet must our Salvation rest on his word ▪ and God's word be forbidden us . What if we obey him in Error , and Sin , will he undertake to be Damned for us ? Or will his undertaking or Damnation save those whom he mislead , & c. ? As to his Citation of Scripture against Scripture , it is so palpable a perversion , that I will leave any Man that will but Read the Text , to his own ability , to answer him : Rev. 5.1 . No Man in Heaven or Earth , was worthy to open the Sealed Books that John saw in his Vision : What then , must no Man therefore open the Bible ? Or because the Revelation is hard , must therefore the People be forbidden to Read it , and the rest of God's word , which was written for them , as sufficient to make them wise to Salvation , yea , to make the simple wise , Psal . 19. And with as shameless a Face doth he cite the Fathers , against the drift of all their writings and Labours , and the Judgment of all the Churches of Christ , for many hundred years , of its purest foundest Primitive times . The Fourth accused Point . That Apostolical Traditions , and ancient Customs of the Church , ( not Founded in the written word , ) are not to be received , nor do oblige us . Ans . This is but more Deceit , by confusion and false report . The Reformed Catholicks hold , 1. That Memory is not so sure a way to deliver any Laws and Doctrines to Posterity , through many hundred years , as writing is . For it must lie on the Memories of so many Thousands , in so many Ages , and so many parts of the World ; Of so many Languages , Kingdoms , and cross Interests and Opinions in their quarrels ; and the things to be remembred are so many , that this needs no proof , with any but Fools or Mad-men : What a Religion should we have had , if instead of the Bible , it must have all been brought us down by the Memories of all the Rabble of ignorant and wicked Popes ? yea , or of the best ? and by the Memories of all the Prelates and Priests that have pretended to be the Church ? Why do they themselves write their pretended Traditions , if writing them were not needful ? And why have we all our Statutes , Records , and Law-Books , if the Lawyers and Peoples Memories would keep and deliver them without these ? When Men's Memories , Wits , and Honesty are so weak , that we can scarce get one Story carried without falsifying through many Hands . 2. We hold , that God in mercy hath therefore considered Man's Weakness , and Necessity , and before the Apostles died , inspired them to Record so much of his Law , and Gospel , and Will , as was universally necessary for all his Subjects to know , in order to Divine belief ; Obedience , and Salvation : And hath left nothing of this importance and necessity unrecorded in the Law of Nature , ( God's Visible works , ) and Scripture , knowing that after Ages were not to have new universal Legislators , to make such Laws for all the World ; nor to have Men miraculously enabled to do it , and give proof that it is Divine . 3. We hold that God's written Word and Law , is perfect in its kind , Psal . 19. and sufficient to its proper use and end : Which Bellarmine , Cassinus , and the Council of Basil , and many School-men , in their Prologues on the Sentences , confess extendeth to all things commonly necessary to Salvation , yea , and to be the Divine Rule of Faith. 4. Yet we deny not , that if God had seen meet to deliver any necessary part of Law or Gospel , Faith or Practice , as his will , by bare word and Memory of Man ; we had been bound to believe and obey it , when we had sound proof that it was indeed from God. 5. We hold , that for fullest certainty , we have possession of the Bible it self , and of the Essentials of Christianity brought us by two Means Conjunct , that is , The Scripture , and practical Custom of the Church . As the Scripture or written Word shineth to us by its own Light , so Tradition tells us which be the Canonical Books , and how the Church received them as Divine , and that there are no other such : And the practice , of Baptismal Profession and Covenanting , and of the Church Assemblies , and reading Scripture , and Catechizing , and of Eucharistical Communion , and Prayer , &c. tell us what in all Ages hath been taken for true Christianity . As we hold a humane Belief , needful in Subserviency , as a means to Divine Belief , so we hold humane Tradition needful to the conveyance of God's Word to us . But , by your leave , we will distinguish the Messenger from the Authour : If the King send me a Law or Mandate by a Messenger , or by the Penny-Post , I will receive and obey it , and yet not take the Post or Messenger for King , or Legislator , or Infallible . 6. And the Reformed Catholicks do own all true Tradition , but are for a far surer Tradition than the Roman Sect. Our Tradition of Scripture , and the great points of Christianity , cometh to us by Evidence Infallible , that may be called Natural , with the greatest advantage of Moral Evidence also ; and not on the boast and bare word of one proud Sect , that pretendeth to Fanatick Inspiration and Authority above all others . I call that Natural Evidence , which ariseth from such necessary Causes that cannot be otherwise , nor can deceive : And I call that the best Moral Evidence , which cometh from Mens testimony of greatest credit for skill and honesty , and we have both these . Mans Soul hath some necessary acts that cannot but be , and cannot be otherwise : Such is sensation of sensible objects duely presented ; Intellectual perception of things presented according to the evidence in which they appear : The Love of our selves and our own known welfare , and any thing that is known to be an only and necessary means thereto , and hath Omnimodam ratiomem boni : The Love of Truth as Truth , and Good as Good : The hatred of misery , &c. These all Men have as men , and that which dependeth on these dependeth not only on mens honesty . And our evidence of Tradition is such as this . It is from the Common Consent of all capable Witnesses , of various Opinions , Passions and Interests , Friends and Foes ; whereas the Tradition of Sectarian Papists , dependeth on the Credit of one Sect , that falsly pretend a peculiar trust with both Scripture and Tradition , tho' against the greater part of Christians : And pretend Fanatically that even ignorant Popes and Prelates in Council , have a gift of infallible knowledge . For Example : If there were a doubt raised , Whether there be any such City in the World as Rome , Paris , Vienna ? or whether there was ever such persons as K. James , K. Charles , Ludovicus 14 ▪ of France , & c. ? Or whether the Statutes in our Books were really made by the Kings and Parliaments named in them , and be the same unchanged , &c. There is Natural evidence of all this , because it ariseth from necessary acts : All sorts of men of contrary interests could never agree to lie and deceive men in such cases , no more than they could all agree to kill themselves : And if some would be falsifyers , the rest would presently detect and shame them : If any Lawyers would falsyfie or change the Statutes , others would presently manifest the deceit , they being commonly known , and the cross interests of so many depending on them ; yea , I say not only that this is Natural Infallible Evidence , but that it is more than very much other Physical Evidence of many other things ; because we have better means to know Mans Natural necessary acts , than we have to know most other Creatures of God. And then for Moral Evidence , we have all the Godly's attestation of all Ages , and Nations , and Sects of Christians , and among the rest the Papists also , agreeing that This Bible , and This Creed , and these Essentials of Christianity , were all certainly transmitted to us from Christ and his Spirit , in his Apostles . And what 's the Tradition of the Papal Sect to all this , who tell us falsely , you cannot know the Scripture to be God's Word , but by taking it on the belief of the Pope and Church of Rome , as Endowed with the Power of Judgment , and the gift of Infallibility . Alas ! what abundance of Impossibilities must be proved true , before any Man can by this method believe God's word ! 1. Before they can believe the Gospel , and that Jesus is the true Christ , they must believe that he hath a Vicar . 2. And a Church . 3. And the Pope is this Vicar , and his Sect this Church . And 4. That he hath the Office , Power and Gift , of infallible Judging , which the Major number of Christians or Churches have not . 5. And that Christ ( not yet believed in , ) gave him power and Infallibility . 6. And that he that now Reigneth , is the true Pope by due Election , Consecration , Qualification , &c. With many more such Impossibilities : And what is it to give up the Cause to the Infidels , if this be not ? 7. But we judge that God's Law in Scripture , secured from the charge of pretended Rememberers and Vsurpers , is so sufficient to its proper use , that there needeth no Supplemental Tradition , as if it were but half God's Law ; but only subservient historical Tradition . And we challenge the Papists to prove de facto , 1. That any such supplemental Tradition is Existent . 2. That they possess any other , but what the other Churches know . 3. That they are more than other Churches , authorized to be the Keepers and Judges of that Tradition . And 4. We fully prove them Innovators , and that Popery is a meer Novelty : It is copiously proved by Peter Moulin , de novitate Papismi , David Blondel de Ecclesia , Andrew Rivet Defence of Morney against Coffetean , and against Silvester , and many others . Can they without the most profligate Impudence pretend Apostolical Tradition , for denying the Laity the Cup in the Eucharist , and for their praying in an unknown Tongue , and forbidding the Scripture , and deposing Princes , and dissolving Oaths of Allegiance , and for tormenting and killing all baptized persons that obey not the Pope , with many such ? 8. If Tradition tell us of any Customs used in the Apostles , or Primitive times , that be not in Scripture , and so be not made matters of Necessity to all ; yea , or of any occasion all mutable Customs that are mentioned in Scripture , ( as washing the Saints Feet , the Holy Kiss , the Womans Vail , long or short Hair , Collections each Lords Day , Preachers Travelling on Foot , &c. ) we quarrel not with the then use of such Traditions , when they were seasonable , no more than with forbearing things strangled and blood : Nor quarrel we with the Churches after , that setled Easter Day , and made the 20th . Canon of the Nicene Council , and used divers Ceremonies at Baptism . But Traditions of things Indifferent and Mutable , we receive but as such , to be laid aside when the occasion ceaseth : And if any will turn them into a necessary common Law , we disclaim such Usurpers ; for they cross that very Tradition . It was delivered as Indifferent , and you feign and make it a necessary Law , and so destroy it . 9. We maintain openly , that Tradition is against the Papacy and its Corruptions . They are but a third or fourth part of Christians : The other two or three parts of the Christian World , profess that the Tradition of their Churches is against the Popes universal Sovereignty , and against all the Corruptions of which they accuse him . None but the shameless will deny that the Abassians , Armenians , Greeks , and others , plead that this is their Tradition . And Reader , tell us , why the Tradition of two or three parts of the Church should not rather be believed against a third part , than that which the third part boast of against all the rest . 10. Ask them which way they know and keep their Traditions ? Whether they have any History , Records , or any other way which we may not know as well as they ? If they pretend that it is a Secret , kept by their Church , it 's a strange Secret that so many Thousands know : But if it be a thing proveable , let them prove it . 11. Is it not unmercifulness , to tell all the Christian World , that as big and hard as the Bible is , if they knew and obeyed it all , they cannot be saved , unless they believe and do more , kept by the Pope , and called Tradition ? When yet these Deceivers can dispense with the knowledge and practice of God's own word , and think the Bible a Book too big and hard , ( and the Prophane say , too strict , ) to be commonly understood and kept ; And yet all the Bible is not Enough , but we must be bound to as much more as they will call Tradition , yea , Volumes also of Papal Canon Laws . 12. Did not Christ for this thing Condemn the Old Pharisees , Mat. 15 ? Prove your Traditions to be Apostolical , and about things necessary , and not your Forgeries , or about things mutable and indifferent , and we will obey all such Apostolical Traditions . But your Novelties and Usupations shall not pass with us for Divine Laws , because you can call them such . The Fifth accused Point . That a Man by his own understanding and private Spirit , may rightly judge and interpret Scripture . Ans . Can any Man unriddle what this Deceiver meaneth ? 1. Can a Man judge without his own understanding ? 2. What meaneth he by a private Spirit ? Little know I. If he mean God's Spirit , it is no contemptible nor private Spirit , even in a private Man : If he mean a Man 's own Spirit , Soul or Intellect , it is the same as [ his own understanding . ] If he mean any Evil Spirit , or fancy and Erroneous self-conceit , we defie such Spirits , and Deceivers that use them . To understand without our own understandings , is a Mystery fit for Rome ; Why may not a Dog , or a Sheep , be said so to understand the Scripture , if it may be understood without our own understandings ? What a Curse is on the ignorant Nations , that will be led by such words as these ! But if he will say that he meant , [ By his own understanding alone without a Teacher , ] why did he not say so , but say one thing and do another . But that had been too gross a Lye , to have been believed , by them that see that we set up Teachers in all our Congregations . 3. Therefore I can imagine nothing but absurdity in his words , unless he mean , that we hold that a Man may rightly Interpret Scripture by his own understanding immediately , instructed by his Teacher and God's Spirit , without taking the Sence only at the rebound , on the belief of the Pope and his Clergy . For we never thought that a Man 's own natural Wit without a Teacher , and the help of God's Spirit , can savingly understand and apply the Scripture . And yet we would fain tell Papists a better way to Convert a Philosopher , or a Turk , than to Preach to them thus : God hath written his Law and Gospel to the World , but you cannot tell what is the meaning of it , till you take that sence on trust from our Pope and Clergy , and know that Christ authorized him to be Judge ; and that before you believe in Christ , or understand the word that so authorizeth him . Were not corrupted Nature very blind in things Spiritual , Plow-men , and Tinkers , and Coblers , would be able to confute such Fopperies , and much more Priests , and Popes , and Prelates . 4. But I pray you tell me , whether the Pope and his Prelates , do not interpret Scripture by their own understandings ? Whose understandings else do they judge by , in Conclaves or Councils ? 5. And tell me , whether he that judgeth that the Pope is Christs Vice-Christ and Ruler , at the Antipodes , and is infallible , tho' he be by Councils condemned for a Simonist , and Infidel , an Atheist , a Seducer , or an ignorant Sot ? Doth not this Man judge all this by his own understanding ? If a Man take an ignorant sottish Priest for the Mouth of the Catholick Church , tho' he know no more what he talks against , than this Roman Deceiver , doth he not judge this by his own understanding ? If a Sot will believe you , that your Sect is the whole Church , and all are Damned , tho' they love God , and believe in Christ , if they will not be ruled by the Pope and every Mass-Priest , doth he not judge thus by his own understanding ? Do you Preach to Men , or Beasts , that have no understanding of God's Law and Will ? If a Man must believe all the Canons of Popes and Councils , in Baronius , Binnius , Surius , Nicolinus , Caranza , &c. doth he not do it by his own understanding ? 6. Oh! But the meaning is , You are all private ignorant Men , and we are the Clergy ; Kings choose some of us , and Popes choose others , and whether we are Wise or Fools , Learned or Vnlearned , Infidels or Christians , you are all Damned if you will not follow us , and if we be Damned , you must be content to be Damned with us . And is it so ? Hath God made Man for no safer and better a Condition , than to be Damned when ever Sottish Drunken Priests will tell him , [ You must believe us that are the Mouth of the Pope , and the Pope , tho' you think that the Word of God is against it ? ] Speak out Deceiver ; would you have all Men be of their Rulers Religion , or not ? Should the Jews have believed the Church , that Christ was a Blasphemer , Deceiver and Traytor , and the Apostles Seditious Fellows ? Must we be Mahometans under Turks , Persians , and Indians , and Papists under Papists ? And why not Lutherans under Lutherans also ? And so our King shall be our God , and our Religion humane . Or must Men judge what is true or false , good or bad , by their own understandings ? Do Kings and Prelates Rule Men , or Dogs , and Brutes ? If Cromwell say , He is Supream , and King Charles say , He is Supream , tell us whether we must not use our own understandings , to know which of them to believe and obey ? And must we not do so , if the World , the Flesh , and the Devil , say one thing , and Christ another ? And I pray you tell us , whether that be Religion that is not Divine , and whether it be not our own understanding , that must distinguish between God and Man ? Did not Vulgar Folly fit slothful Fools for Hell , they would easily perceive that Popery engaging them to renounce their own understandings , maketh us all Voluntary Brutes , to gratify the ambition of Men , and puts down God from being our Governour , and Man from being a Voluntary Subject , and turns the Kingdom of Christ into the Kingdom of Beasts . The Sixth Point accused . That St. Peters Faith hath failed . Ans . Who could more ignorantly have stated a Controversie ? 1. Protestants are further from the Opinion that Peters Faith failed , than the greatest Papist Doctors : Some Protestants hold that no Man that hath true saving Faith , doth ever totally lose it ; much less Peter . Others hold , that no Elect Person that hath true Faith , doth totally lose it : And so thought Augustine : Others add , that though some , as Calvin speaks , qualecunque semen sidei perderint , having no more immutable Grace than Adam had in Innocency , yet all that have a Confirmed Radicated Habit , persevere . And as to Peters Faith , all save those called Arminians agree , ( as far as I know , ) that his Faith was not totally lost , nor Peter relapsed into a State of Damnation : But will all the Jesuits say as much ? We commonly hold that the Habit of Peters Faith , must be distinguished from the Acts , and the Act of Assent from the Act that exciteth Confession and conquereth Opposition . And that Peters Faith did not totally fail as to the Habit , nor the Assent , that Christ was the Messiah : But that it actually failed as to the latter Act , that should conquer Fear : Christ said to him and the rest before that , Why are ye fearful , O ye of little Faith : Little Faith , is Faith failing in Degree . This is our Victory over the World , even our Faith , saith St. John. And did not Peters Faith fail as to part of that Victory , when he Curst and Swore that he knew not the Man ? But by Peters Faith , this Deceiver meaneth the Popes Faith : And he instanceth in the Scribes and Pharisees , that were to be heard because they Sate in Mose's Chair , and in Cajaphas the High-Priest . Reader , see what Christians these Slaves of Christs pretended Vicar are : Doth he not plainly infer , that the people did well that believed the Priests , and the Scribes , and Pharisees , that Christ was a Deceiver and workt Miracles by the Devil ; and was a Blasphemer and a Traytor , and deserved Death ; and that cryed Away with him : Crucifie him ? And what wonder if they obey their High Priest , when he Commandeth them to Murther Thousands and Hundred Thousands Saints Nicknamed Hereticks , when they justifie them that killed Christ and the Apostles , because the Church Commanded it , ( unless they will renounce their own plain Consequence ? ) And must we indeed believe , that the Popes Faith never failed , because Peters did not ? Then we must believe that General Councils that are their Church , have been very false and slanderous . Reader , I will give thee but an Account of one or two , ( when their own most flattering Historians have written of many a long time , that they were rather Apostatict , than Apostolici , and named but to keep the Account of time . ) The great General Council at Constance , ( that Burnt John Hus and Jerome of Prague , for Truth and Honesty , ) finding three Popes Heading three Churches called Roman Catholicks , had no way to return to Unity , but by putting down all three : With much adoe they got down two of them : But Pope John at Rome had the fastest hold , and they had more adoe to get him down ; and had not the Emperour resolved to back them , they had been foiled . Hereupon he is accused in the Council , First , by Fifty Four Articles , of such Monstrous Villanies , as one would think humane Nature were uncapable of . Afterward many more are added , of Poysoning Pope Alexander , of Incest with his Brothers Wife , and the Holy Nuns , and Ravishing Maids , and Adultery with Men's Wives , and much more ; and of Simony , almost incredible : And amongst the rest , ( which I forbear to recite , lest I tire the Reader , ) they say and prove , that he was a notorious Simoniack , and a portinacious Heretick ; That oft before divers Prelates , and other Honest Men , by the Devils perswasion he pertinaciously said , asserted , dogmatized , and maintained , that there is no Life Eternal , nor any after this : And he said and pertinaciously believed , that Man's Soul dieth with the Body , and is extinct , as are the Bruits : And he said , that the Dead rise not , contrary to the Articles of the Resurrection , &c. These Articles being shewed to the Pope , he confest his Sin , and consented to be Deposed , and begged Mercy , but all in Hypocrisie , while he sought to get out of their Hands and Power . And now Reader , dost thou think that it is the mark of a Heretick , and deserveth Burning and Damnation , for a Man to think that this Popes Faith failed ? Were it not for tiring you , I would repeat such Articles against many others of them , as would make you think , that not only the Heathen Philosophers , but even Mahomet was a Saint in comparison of these Swinish and Diabolical Popes . After this , the Great Council at Basil accused Eugenius the 4th . of Heresie and multitudes of horrid Crimes , and deposed him : But he outfaced them , and standing it out to the last , got the better , and the Succession is ever since continued from this Pope , that was deposed by a grand General Council . Before these , Pope John the 12th . was deposed by a Council at Rome , called by Otho the Emperour , for such horrid Villanies , as no Pagans that we read of ever matcht . Read them but in Baronius , and Binnius : Drinking Healths in Wine to the Devil , and calling at Dice upon Jupiter and Venus , besides Murders , Simony , Incest and all Wickedness , are all consistent with Papal Faith : And if this be no failing , I shall grant that the Popes Faith ( nor the Devils , ) can never fail . The Seventh accused Point . That the Church can Err , and hath Errors . Ans . This is truly and honestly recited : All Protestants hold it , and marvel that all the Devils in Hell can so befool any as to deny it . 1. No Body can tell what it is that they call the Church , till they tell us : But what ever it is , except confirmed Angels and Souls in Heaven , if they cannot Err , God and our Saviour , and the Apostles have Erred . For they tell us that , [ we know but in part , ] and if any Man say that he hath no Sin , he is a Lyar , 1 Joh. 1. 1 Cor. 13.12 . And in many things we offend all , Jam. 2.2 . Psal . 19.12 . Who can understand his Errours , cleanse thou me from secret faults . It was the Church of which God complaineth , that they alway Err in their Hearts , and have not known God's ways , Psal . 95.10 . Heb. 3.10 . unless Caleb and Joshua were all the Church , Isa . 53.6 . All we like Sheep have gone astray , &c. If by the Church they mean the Priests , how full of Complaints against their Errours are all the Prophets , and History of the Kings and Chronicles ? Isa . 3.12 . O my people , they that lead thee , cause thee to Err , and destroy the way of thy paths . Isa , 9.15 , 16. For the Leaders of this people cause them to Err , and they that are led of them are destroyed . Mal. 2. The Priests Lips should keep knowledge , and they should seek the Law at his Mouth , for he is the Messenger of the Lord of Hosts : But ye are departed out of the way , and ye have caused many to stumble at the Law : Ye have corrupted the Covenant of Levi , saith the Lord of Hosts : Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people , according as ye have not kept my ways , &c. Hos . 4.6 . My people are cut off for lack of knowledge : Because thou hast rejected knowledge , I will olso reject thee , that thou shalt be no Priest to me . Jer. 53.31 . The Prophets prophecy falsely , and the Priests bear Rule by their means , and my people love to have it so , and what will ye do in the end hereof ? 2 Chron. 36.14 , 16 , 17. All the chief of the Priests and the people Transgressed very much after the abominations of the Heathen : But they mocked the Messengers of the Lord , and despised his words , and misused his Prophets , till the wrath of the Lord arose against his people , and there was no healing ▪ so Isa . 1.2 , 3 , 4. Reader , is it not worse than Infidelity that these Men teach , if they say that the Church hath not Erred ? Was it no Error when Aaron set them up the Golden-Calf ? nor when they went after the Idols of the Heathen , and worshipped in the High places ? Was it no Error to take Christ for a Deceiver and Blasphemer , worthy to be Crucified ? Was it no Error to reject the Gospel , and persecute the Apostles ? And had the Apostles no Error , when they believed not that Christ must Die for our Sins , and rise again , and ascend to Heaven , but thought he must then set up an Earthly Kingdom ? Was it no Error of Peter , Math. 16. to disswade Christ from Suffering , for which Christ said , Get thee behind me Sathan , thou savourest not the things that be of God , but those that be of Men ? And I think he Erred , when Paul openly rebuked his Separation , Gal. 2. If all the Church on Earth consist only of persons that have many Errors , then the whole Church hath many Errors : But the Antecedent is so true , that I take him that denyeth it , to be so far from knowing what the Church is , or what a Christian is , that he knoweth not what a Man is , and a Church of such are so unfit to be trusted as infallible , with all Mens Salvation , that they have not the Wit of common illiterate Men , or Children : And if in all things else they were as mad as in these two Opinions . 1. That the Church never did nor can Err. 2. And that all Mens Senses must be denyed for Transubstantiation ; doubtless they should be kept in Bedlam from humane Converse . But for my part , I do not think that any Man of them not stark mad , doth believe himself that there are any men in the World that have no Error , ( that have any use of Understanding . ) He is far from knowing what Man is , that knoweth not that he swarmeth with Errours : I oftner doubt whether the greater number of most mens thoughts , are true or false . But if by the Church they mean only the Pope , if he cannot Err , then it is no Errour to believe that there is no Life but this , and that Mans Soul dieth as the Beasts , and that it is lawful to Murther Gods Servants by Thousands , or hundred Thousands ; if all the foresaid Popes in the ages 800 , 900 , 1000 , 1100 , Erred not , sure there is no such thing as Errour in the World. But perhaps by the Church is meant General Councils . But 1. If they Erred not in their Decrees , doth it follow that therefore they had no Errour ? 2. But did not the second Council at Ephesus Err ? Where they tell us that Sola Petri Navicula , only the Popes Messengers escaped the Heresie ? Did not the Council of Calcedon Err in their Opinion , when it determined that the Reason of Romes Primacy was because it was the Imperial Seat , & c. ? Were all the Councils free from Errour that were for the Arrians ? And those that were against them ? And all that were for the Monothelites ? And those that were against them ? And all that were for Images , and those that were against them , & c. ? But at last they come to this , that the Pope may Err , and Councils may Err , but when they agree , they cannot Err : A happy meeting of Erring persons , if they are both cured by it . But sure it is not the meeting : For the Pope is at Rome , when the Council is at Trent , Ephesus , Constantinople , &c. If a Council may Err , and the Pope Err , what proveth it impossible for them to agree in Errour ? The Pope and Council at Lateran 4th . agreed for the Popes deposing Princes that Exterminate not all out of their Dominions that deny Transubstantiation , &c. Was this no Errour ? Obj. But this was not a matter of Faith. Ans . Is it no matter of Faith with them , Whether it be Lawful or not , according to Gods Law , to kill men that believe their Senses , and to depose Princes ? And whether Subjects may break their Oaths of Allegiance , and forsake their Prince if the Pope Command them , and all because their Prince will not be a Murtherer or Persecutor ? These are no matters of Faith with them ? But sure they have made them Articles of their Religion . And either the Rebels , and Murtherers ▪ and Pope and Council Err , or else Gods Law and Gospel Err. The Judgment of the Reformed Catholicks is this , 1. That there is no man living without Errour . 2. That the Apostles of Christ were Commissioned to deliver his Gospel to the World , by Word and Record , and had his promise of his Spirit to lead them into all Truth , and keep them from doing that Work Erroneously which they were commissioned to do : ( Tho' not to make them absolutely free from Sin or Errour in all other things . ) And therefore the Scripture written by them is free from Errour , by Virtue of the special promise and Spirit . 3. That all true Christians , ( really regenerate , ) are free from all Errour , inconsistent with true saving Faith , and Title to Salvation . 4. That therefore the Church as it signifieth only the said regenerate true Christians , hath no Damning Errour , or none but what is pardoned , as consistent with saving Faith and Holiness . 5. That the Universal Visible Church , is the whole Company of men on Earth , that profess true saving Faith , and are by Covenant Vow Baptized into this Profession : And that all this true Visible Church , professeth no Errour , inconsistent with their Profession of the foresaid saving Faith : Because the profession of saving Faith is essential to visible Christianity , and to the visible Church . For mark , that I say not that they profess no Errour inconsistent with sincere Faith in themselves subjectively , nor yet that as to objective Faith , may not by unseen consequence overthrow it : For there is such a concatenation of Divine revealed Truths , that it is a doubtful case , whether any one Errour ( which all men have , ) do not by remote Consequence subvert the very Foundations . But no true Visible Church or Christian , so professeth any one Errour , as not to profess the essential points of Faith and Godliness , tho' they may think falsely that both are true . Therefore Protestants teach , that unseen Consequences are not to be so charged on those that see them not , and hold fast the ( injured ) Truth , as if it were a known or direct denyal of the Truth . 6. But every Church , and every man , being imperfect both in knowledge , Faith and Holiness , have all some Errour : For to be objectively de fide , is to be of Divine Revelation : And all the Scripture is Divine Revelation . And if the question be , Whether any Pope , Council or Church , understand all the Scripture without any Errour ? judge by Commentators , and common Experience . And now what saith the Deceiver against all this ? 1. He citeth Isa . 59.21 . God hath promised to preserve his Word in the Church : Ergo , the Church cannot Err ? A forged Consequence , no more followeth , but that the true Church shall not lose or forsake Gods Word : For then it would cease to be the Church : But 1. Not that the best Churches understand all that Word without any Errour . 2. Nor that any particular Church visible may not apostatize , or turn Hereticks , or corrupt Gods Word , and forbid men to use it in a known Tongue , as the Papists do . Next he citeth Joh. 14.16 . As if all the Church had the same promise of the Spirit of Infallibility , as the Apostles had : If so , then , 1. Papists are none of the true Church , because they have many Errours . 2. And if the major part be the Church , rather than a minor Sect , then all other Christians that are against Popery are free from Errour , for they are twice or thrice as many as the Papists . 3. And when the far greater part were Arrians , they were free from Errour : Yea , the Council of Sirmium , to which Pope Liberius professed full consent . Or did Christ break his promise to all these ? 4. If the Pope or all his Prelates , have as full a promise of the Spirit as the Apostles , then they may write us a new Bible , and Word of God , as they did : No wonder then if the Canons and Decretals be as much Gods Word as the Bible ? But why then do they not confirm their Canons by Miracles as the Apostles did ? And why did so many Popes contradict each other ? Had both Stephanus , Formosus , Nicholas , and the foresaid Johns that denyed the Life to come , &c. the same Gift as the Apostles ? Surely we may well say to them as St. James , Shew me thy Faith by thy Works ? They did shew it by most odious Simony , Gluttony , Drunkenness , Lying with Maids and Wives , even at the Apostolick Doors , Murdering Christs Members by Thousands , Silencing faithful Preachers , Deposing Emperours , Commanding Perjury and Rebellion , even to Sons against their own Fathers : Forbidding all Church Worship of God to whole Kingdoms for many years , when a King will not obey the Pope : By such Works they shew their Faith ! O the power of Satan , and the horrid pravity of man , when such things are not only Justified , but trusted to for Justification , and made consistent with a Church that never Erred . Indeed these Errours crept in by Degrees , which maketh it difficult to Expositors of Scripture Prophesie , to know just the year when the mischief became so ripe as to prove Rome to be Babylon Apostate to Pagano-Christianity , and the Pope to be Antichrist . But if I see a man Raging mad in Bedlam , I will not make it an Article of my Faith , that he is Sanae mentis , because I know not just when his amentia & deliratio , or Melancholly became a Mania , or Furor . The Deceiver also citeth , Mat. 18.17 . viz. Because men must hear the Church , where a Sinner dwelleth , that calleth him to Repentance after due Proof and Admonition , therefore the Pope and his Prelates cannot Err. An Argument liker a Derision , than a serious Proof : Did not the Pope then Err , when Bishops and Councils have in vain called him to Repent ? Doth not the Church Err then most damnably , that commandeth Murder , Treason , and most heynous Sin , and is the Leader of the Impenitent ? Must we take such then as Heathens and Publicans ? But as the man thinketh , so the Bell tinketh . Do but Fancy that by the [ Church , ] is meant only the Pope and his Clergy ; and that all is such Sin which the Pope calleth so , tho' God command us , and then all such Texts will seem to them to say what they would have them say . The man also citeth , Eph. 5.27 . viz. Christ will present his Regenerate Church , perfect and spotless in Judgment . What then ? Ergo , the Visible Church on Earth hath no Errour or Spot : And Ergo , the Pope and his Clergy are this Visible perfect Church . And why not as well Constantinople , Alexandria , Antioch , or Jerusalem , the Mother Church ? Which part is it that is the whole , or indefectible ? What is profaining Gods Word , if this be not ? If any should be forbidden the Scripture , it is these prophaning Priests . The Eighth accused Point . That the Church hath been hidden and Invisible . Ans . We do not think that the Pope and his Clergy-Church have been hidden and invisible . Their Wars , even in Italy and Rome , for many Ages made them Visible : Yea , and palpable too : The Kings and Emperours that they Fought against or Deposed knew them ; above 100000 Waldenses and Albigenses felt them to the Death : Quae Regio in terris talis non plena laboris . Whether this man knew not the Protestants Judgment herein , or whether he would not have his Reader know it , I cannot tell ; but I shall tell you what it is . 1. Protestants commonly hold , That as the Word [ Church ] signifieth the Company of sincere Christians , and Heart-consenters to the Baptismal Covenant , so it is invisible to Man that knoweth not the Heart . Inward Faith and Love which denominate them , are not seen by others , dare any deny this ? 2. But as the Word [ Church ] signifieth the Vniversality of men baptized professing Christianity in publick Assemblies , so it was never invisible , since such publick profession and Assemblies first began . 3. But when the Pagan Persecutors forced their meetings into Woods and Cells , and Pits , called Conventicles , and to Night-Meetings , they were hidden from the Persecutors , as well as they could hide themselves : And so they were , when they hid themselves from the Arrian Persecution of Valens , Constantius , Gensericus , Hunnerichus , and from the Persians : And so were those of Tholouse , Piedmont , Bohemia , and others that hid themselves , and fled from the Crusado's , under Simon Montford , and St. Domonick , and others that Murdered them . Christ himself fled to Egypt , and Galilee , from Persecutors . His Disciples were met secretly for fear of the Jews , when Christ appeared to them ; when Peter was in Prison , many were assembled by Night in a Conventicle , at the House of Marks Mother , to pray for him . The Papists themselves keep hidden Meetings , where they cannot have more publick . 4. God hath not promised his Church , such constant Prosperity , as that in every Age any Nation shall have publick Liberty without all Persecution ; much less that they shall be still uppermost , and Masters of the World , and have Kings and Emperours always for them . 5. But we cannot say , that yet the Church hath been so low since the days of Constantine , that all Princes have disowned the Essentials of Christianity , and we hope it never will be so . 6. But all Ages and parts of the Church , have not been equally pure and sound : In some Ages the Arrians were most : In the Reign of Theodosius Junior , Anastasius , &c. the Eutichians prevailed : In the days of Philippicus the Monothelites prevailed , so that at one of their Councils Binius saith , There were Innumerable Bishops : In one Emperours time those prevailed that were against Images ; in Irene's and Theodora's times , those that were for them : Sometime the Bishop of Rome had most Power , and sometime the Bishop of Constantinople , and Alexandria : For an Hundred years , even much of Italy forsook him , and set up a Patriarch at Aquileia as their Head : Through many Ages the Citizens of Rome themselves expelled him or Fought against him . Now in all these Cases , the Church , as professing Christinanity , was still Visible : But which of all the parts was the purest and soundest , was known to none but the sound parts themselves . And when and where the Errours became so great as really to nullifie , or invalidate the Profession of Christianity this was known only to those near , that had opportunity to know the mind of the accused : For Noxa Caput sequitur : One man , tho' a Prince or Prelate , cannot make all his Subjects Hereticks by his Errour . So that nothing hath been more Visible , than that there have still been professed Christians , and so an Universal visible Church on Earth . But which parts of this Church have de facto been Sound , and which Corrupt , and what Errours have nullified their Profession , and what only blemisht it , this hath never been visible to the Erroneous ; ( For no man knoweth that he Erreth ; ) but it hath been visible to the Sound . And so , that the Church of Rome yet Professeth Christianity , we know : But whether their Errours prove them Babylon , or nullifie their Christianity , must be known only by trying the guilty Individuals . Here the Cheaters say to the Ignorant , If the Church hath been always Visible , where was your Church before Luther ? Ans . 1. Where-ever there were men professing Christianity and Baptized , and not Apostatizing . Were there none such in the World , must we be put to prove where there were any Christians before Luther ? Were not the Hearers grosly Ignorant , the Cheaters would have no Confidence in such Fopperies as these . Obj. But the Church of Rome profest Christianity before Luther . Ans . It did so , and as Christians we are of the same Church with them , we know no Universal Church , but the Christian as such , that is , all Christians as only Headed by Christ If you cannot tell whether before Luther there were any Christians in the World , ( in Abassia , Egypt , Syria , Armenia , the Greeks , Muscovites , &c. ) it 's your gross ignorance of History . But whether Papists , Arrians , Eutychians , Nestorians , Monothelites , Phantasians , Image-Worshippers , do invalidate their profession of Christianity , by their contrary Errours and Crimes , it much more concerneth themselves , than us to enquire and judge . But tho' those that nullify not their profession of Christianity , are all of the same Church Universal that we are of , yet we profess that their New humane Church , which is [ only the Pope as Head , and all that adhere to him as such , ] are no Church of Christ at all . All Christians as such are parts of the Christian Church : But a Policy consisting of a Vice-Christ and his Subjects , is a Rellellious Usurpation , and no Church , Forma denominat : As Christ is the Head , all are of the Church that truly cleave to him as Head : As the Pope is the pretended Head , they are all a pack of Rebels . And now what an ignorant Cant is it to say , The Church cannot Apostatize ; Ergo , it cannot Err ; Ergo , the Pope of Rome , and his hireling Clergy cannot Apostatize ; and Ergo , They cannot Err ! Tell me , whether Rome be all the World ? And whether the Church of Rome , and the Christian World , be Words of the same signification in any Dictionary ? And whether an Alexandrian Catholick , or a C.P. are Catholick , be not as good Sence , as a Roman Catholick ? And whether the Texts or Fathers , that you name prophanely , will prove that the Church of C.P. Alexandria , Antioch , or Jerusalem , can never Err , or Apostatize , or be Invisible ? And whether your own Jesuits confess not that Rome shall do so too , in the Reign of Antichrist ? In the mean time take this answer . 1. The Church as intimately Sanctified , and sincere , was ever invisible . 2. The Church Universal , as professing Christianity , was ever Visible , tho' oft hid by Persecution . 3. Whether Rome , C.P. Jerusalem be a true Church or Apostate , is invisible to those that knew them not . 4. That the Papal Church , as informed by a Universal Vice-Christ , is a false Church , is Notorious . This is our Judgment . The Ninth accused Point . That the Church was not always to remain Catholick or Vniversal : And that the Church of Rome is not such a Church . Ans . The first part is a meer flat Lye : We hold that the Church is always to remain Universal , till it be presented perfect in Glory : If it remain not Universal , what becomes of it ? Is it a part of something else , or annihilated ? If Christ have no Church , he is no Head of the Church , and so no Christ . What Protestant Church ever said any such thing , as you falsly charge them with ? That the Church of Rome is not such a Church , that is , Is not the Vniversal Church , indeed we not only say , but think the contrary , sitter for a man Drunk than Sober ? What ? is Rome all the World ? Is Abassia , America , Mesopotamia , Muscovy , Asia , Thrace , England , Scotland , Sweden , Denmark , no part of the World , yea , of the Christian World ? And is not the Christian World , the Church Vniversal ? Reader , here is a Controversy worthy the Wits , Learning and Honesty of all the Famous Fathers , and Doctors , and Juglers of the Roman Catholick Church . The Question is , Which of the Rooms in the House is the whole House ? One saith that the Kitchin , or the Cole-House , or the House of Office , is the whole House . We Protestants say , that no one Room is the whole , but Hall , Parlors , Dining-Room , and all the Chambers , and Closets , and Kitchin , are the whole ; and if the Cole-House , and House of Office will needs be parts , we will not contend with them , but we will never grant that they are either the whole , or the best part : Tho' by Fire and Stink , they think to force us to it . But the ancient Writers distinguish between the Catholick Church , and a Catholick Church : By the first is meant the whole Church : By the second is meant such a particular Church , as is not Schismatical , but a true and sound part of the whole . But what could these Self-Condemners say more against themselves , than thus openly to confess , that their Sect claimeth to be the whole Church , and so Trayterously unchurcheth two or three parts of the Church of Christ , and Damneth most Christians , for not being Traytors to Christ , as they ? To confute his base abuse of Scripture , is needless and irksome . The Tenth point accused . That the Churches Vnity , is not necessary in al● p●i●ts of Faith. Ans . This we verily hold , for all that God hath revealed in Scripture to be believed , are points of Faith , ( if the Word be used intelligibly by these men : ) But all the points of Genealogies , Topography , Chronology , Prophecy in Scripture , are revealed to be believed , therefore they are points of Faith ; and if Unity in all these is necessary to the Unity of the Church , then no Church on Earth hath Unity : Certainly Rome hath not , whose Commentators and Doctors disagree about many hundred Texts of Scripture , and Sixtus 5th . and Clemens 8th . Popes , about the very Translation of many hundred Texts . These men must now say , that we are not bound to believe all Gods Word , or else they must confess that their Church hath not Unity . That which Reformed Catholicks hold is , 1. First points of Faith , ( or revealed to be believed , ) are some of them Essential to Christianity , and of necessity to Salvation , and some but Intergrals , if not some Accidents : The first all the True Church agreeth in : The second not : As who is Antichrist ? or Babylon ? or the Ten-Horned , or Two-Horned Beast in the Revelations ? What is the Time , Times , and half a Time , with an Hundred such ? But in general , all believe that all Gods Word is true . It might convince these men , in that it was long before all the Churches received all the Canonical Books of Scripture , and yet all received not all their Apocryphal Books . And are these out of the Church ? Or are none of these Books to be believed ? The Eleventh Point accused . That St. Peter was not Ordained by Christ the first Head or Chief among the Apostles ; and that among the Twelve , none was greater or lesser than other . Ans . Meer Falsehood , as undistinguisht . The word Head is ambiguous ; this Writer hath a Head , such as it is , that other Heads much differ from . Reformed Catholicks hold , that Peter is called first in numbring them : That he was by Christ in many instances , preferred before others : That he was an Eminent Speaker , and worker of Miracles : That all the Apostles were not Equal in parts and worth ; but some herein greater than other . What , was Judas no lesser than the rest , that was a Thief and Traytor ? John was Eminently the Disciple whom Jesus loved . But we hold , 1. That as John was not made Lord or Ruler of the rest , by being Loved more , so Peter's Preheminence made him no Master or Ruler of the rest : The twelve Apostles were chosen Relatively , to the twelve Tribes . Peter as Reuben was the first , and denyed Christ , and was called Satan , with a Get behind me , ( Mat. 16. ) as Reuben defiled his Fathers Bed. But as Levi was the third , so was James the first Sanctified Apostle : And as Juda the fourth , is called the Law-giver , from whom the Scepter should not depart , &c. so John the fourth is the Disciple of Eminent Love ; and Love is the Everlasting Grace , when Faith and Prophesie cease . But Christ made no one of them Ruler of the rest . Proved , 1. No Text speaketh any such thing : And the Headship of Governing Power , would have been of such grand necessity to be known , that Christ and his Apostles must needs have plainly and oft inculcated it . 2. Peter never Exercised any such Power ; what mention is there of any Laws or Mandates of his to the other Apostles ? 3. The rest never sought to him for Laws or Orders . 4. The Schism and Controversies of Christians were never decided by appealing to him as the Judge . 5. When some at Corinth would have made him their Head , and said , I am of Cephas , Paul reproveth them as carnal , saying of all , What are they but Ministers , by whom ye believed ? 6. Paul reproveth him , Gal. 2. 7. The Jewish Christians contend against him , for Eating with Gentiles , Act. 11. whom he satisfieth by proof from God , and not by pleading his Supremacy . 8. He never once claimed any such Power . 9. Paul , 1 Cor. 12. tells us of none in the Church greater than Apostles . But the rest were Apostles as well as he . 10. No such Article was ever put into the Churches Creed . We grant that Christ did in instituting the Apostles Office , institute a disparity of Ministers in his Church , and this to be continued in the Ordinary continued part of their Works , but not in the Extraordinary . And we grant that in putting Peter first , Christ intimated , that among men of the same Office , there may for Order sake be a Priority ; as the President of a Synod or Colledge , or the Fore-man of a Jury , or a Chief-Justice , or the Speaker of a Parliament : God is not the God of Confusion , but of Order , as in all the Churches : If a Parish or an Independant Church have one grave Pastor , with divers young Assistants , that were but his Scholars , nature will give him some awing Preheminence among them . We are not against such a Primacy among Bishops , or Arch-Bishops : But this is nothing to a Governing Office. And if Peter had had such , what 's that to the Pope of Rome ? The Twelfth Point accused . That a Woman may be Head , or Supreme Governess of the Church in all Causes , as the late Queen Elizabeth was . Ans . A cheat by Confusion and Equivocation . The Church hath two sorts of Government : One by the Word of God , and the Keys called Ecclesiastical . The other by the Sword , called Princely or Magistratical : We never had King or Queen that claimed the former , and none but Enemies of Government deny the latter : Queen Elizabeth and all our Kings since have publickly disclaimed the Priest by Office of Words , Keys and Sacraments , which maketh the Clergy Tryers and Judges what to Preach , and whom to Baptize and receive to Church Communion , absolve or Excommunicate . But ask this Deceiver , Must the Church have none to Govern by the Sword ? All Christians are the Church , and so all Christian Princes are deposed , because they are Christians . Or must the Clergy have no such Government over them ? Yes , the Pope , say the Papal Canons ; he is Sword-bearer over the Clergy : So you see what Church-power is come to . But I trow , few Papist Kings will grant that they have no Sword-Government over the Clergy , lest every Priest be Master of their Houses , Wives , and Lives . The King is no Physicain , or Philosopher , no Architect , Shipwright , Pilot , &c. but may he not be King and Ruler of all these ? He is no Clergy-man or Priest , but the Ruler of the Clergy . But they say , it must not be in Causes Ecclesiastical . Ans . Causes Ecclesiastical have two sorts of Government , in order to two Ends. As if one be accused for Preaching against God or Christ , or the Life to come ; or for Perjury , Adultery , Murder , &c. Here the Bishops are Judges , ( and the Church , ) whether this man be Guilty in order to his Communion or Excommunication , or admonition . But the King and his Judges are to Judge , whether he be Guilty , and so whether to be Imprisoned , Fined , Banished , &c. so far as Causes of Religion or Church , are to be punished by the Sword , the King is Head or Governour , and Judge : who would think that a sort of men that deny this , should have the Face to say that they are Loyal to Kings , or any forcing Government : Must Kings Burn or Kill , as many Thousands at the Popes command as the Pope will call Hereticks , and yet never have power to judge whether they are such , and do deserve it ? O! how much worse than Hangmen , would such men make all Kings and Magistrates ! Was not all the Christian World in a sad case then , when the Pope was under the Arrian Goths , and the Subject of a Foreign Arian must Rule all Kings and Kingdoms ? No man of Brains can be ignorant that Popedom or Prelacy , do not always make men mortified Saints , ( that oft have been scarce Men , much less Christians ; ) nor that the Prince hath a great Power , both in Choosing and Ruling the Clergy that are his Subjects . It fell out happily , that Theodorick the Arian , ( and divers Spanish Arian Kings , ) were an honest sort of men ; but sure they were very mighty Princes at Rome , when one Subject of an Arrian Goth , was Ruler of all the Kings and Souls on Earth , ( de jure , say our Deceivers . ) And if the Turk should possess Rome , as he doth C.P. all Kings and Nations must be subject to his Subject ? And what Power he hath over the four Patriarks of C.P. Alexandria , Antioch , and Jerusalem , is too well known . And when Baronius , Binnius , &c. tell us of famous Whores , ( Marozia , and Theodora , ) that made , and Ruled and unmade Popes , how was the World Governed ? As it was said by a Lord Mayors Child , that he Ruled all London , saying , my Father Ruleth London , and my Mother Ruleth my Father , and I Rule my Mother ; so might it be said , these Whores Ruled all the Kings and Nations of Christians on Earth ; ( if the Roman claim be Currant , for they made and Ruled Popes that claimed the Rule of all the World. ) O! how much greater was a Roman Whore , ( Marozia , Theodora , &c. ) than Pallas , Venus , or the great Diana of the Ephesians ! But the mischief was , that they were mutable , and could unmake a Pope , as well as make him , and set the City and Country by the Ears : as Aequa Venus Teucris ; Pallas iuiqua fuit . And if all Kings must be Subjects to the Subject , ( or Chaplains ) of him that can win Rome , let us wish that he may not be a Mahometan , Pagan , or Arian : And why said I an Arian , when an Anti-arian Pope , can Murder Christians by Thousands , when a Theodorick would not have hurt them . The Thirteenth Point accused . That Antichrist shall not be a particular man , and the Pope is Antichrist . Ans . This is Popish Stating Cases ; Protestants find in the Creed , the Name of Christ , but not the Name of Antichrist ; and therefore while they know and trust Christ , they think it not necessary to Salvation to know Antichrist : But they believe Christ , who said , that many should come in his Name saying , I am Christ and deceive many , even before the Destruction of the Jews ; and rhey believe St. John , that said , there are many Antichrists already : The Fathers and Papists say , there is some one Great Antichrist to come towards the end of the World : Most Protestants think it is Antichrist that is described , in 2 Thes . 2. and Rev. 12.13 , 17. To confute King James , Bishop George Downame , Dr. Henry More , ( above all ) Mr. Mede , Cluverus , Grasserus , &c. will require more than this Writers Impertinencies . There are many Protestants that think it a meer mistake , that there will be any one Antichrist so Eminent as to obscure all the rest : And they pretend not to judge , of Antichrist by the Apocalyps , but by the Ten Commandments , and all the Gospel : And they believe , that he is Antichrist that usurpeth Christs Prerogative , and yet opposeth his Kingdom : And such they think the Eastern Antichrist Mahomet is the most notorious , and the Western Antichrist , the Pope is his Second ; in that he claimeth Christs Prerogative of Governing all Nations of the Earth as Vice-Christ , and yet by Lies , Malice and Blood , suppresseth his true Gospel , Grace and Kingdom ; confute this if you can ; Amending would be your best defence . We doubt not but Antichrists past , have been Individual men , such was Barchocheba , and some say Herod , and some Dioclesian , but undoubtedly Mahomet : And if the Pope be the Western Antichrist , it is the Individual Popes that are such ; but many of those Individuals may make a Succession of Antichristian Policy . Answer Dr. More , and Cluveru● of this , if you are able . We lay not our opposition to Popery chiefly , on the dark Revelation , Prophecy , or on the question , Who is the Antichrist : But on the plain Word of God : If we find a Succession of men , claiming Omnipotency and Christs Prerogative , to Govern all Kings and Nations on Earth , and this by bare and base Vsurpation and Novelty ; and find these men set up their numerous , false treasonable , inhumane Canons , and forbid and revile Gods Law and Word , and find them turning Gods Worship into unintelligible Mummery and Stage-Shows , and Ceremony , and find them living at Leeches on Blood , yea , on the Blood of Thousands of the best Christians , and damning and separating from the far greater part of the Christian World , because they refuse Subjection to this usurping Vice-Christ , and judging all to Fire and Ruine that renounce not all humane Senses , and worship not Bread pretended to be deifyed by daily numerous Miracles of the basest Priests , and deposing Kings that will not be such Executioners , and justifying their Subjects in Perjury and Rebellion : We will not differ with you for the Name , whether you will call those that are such , Antichrists , or Diabolists : Whether such a State be the Babylon , or far worse , as sinning against more Light , and by more horrid abuse of the Name of Christ against himself . The Fourteenth accused Point . That no man , nor any but God , can forgive or retain Sins . Ans . False as undistinguished . We hold , 1. That to forgive Sin , being the forgiving of the Punishment of Sin , and the obligation thereto , 1. Parents may on just cause forgive Corrective punishment to their Children , and Masters to their Servants . 2. Magistrates may on just cause , forgive Corporal punishment to Subjects . 3. Equals may forgive Injuries to Friends and Enemies . 4. Pastors may on just cause , forgive the Church penalties , of Excommunication , which they had power to inflict : And all the Flock must forgive and receive the penitent accordingly . 5. When a Sinner by Faith and Repentance , truly performeth the Condition of Gods pardon expressed in Scripture , the Ministers of Christ are by Office authorized to declare and pronounce him pardoned by God , and by the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper to Invest him in a pardoned State , by delivering him a Sealed pardon : But only Suppositively , If his Faith and Repentance be sincere , else he hath not Gods pardon of the Divine Punishment . This is all true and plain , and enough . But we detest their Doctrine that say , 1. That men can pardon the Spiritual and Eternal Punishment , any otherwise than consequently declaring and delivering Gods pardon , which shall hold good , if the Priest refuse to declare or deliver it . 2. Or that Popes or Priests pardon , Purgatory pains , and Masses , and Money , and the Redundance of Saints Merits , and pleasing the Pope , conduce thereto . But if you will Speak so absurdly , as to say , that if the King send a pardon to a Traytor or Murderer , the Messenger pardoned him ; we leave you to your phrases . None of the Texts or Fathers cited , speak for any more than what we hold . The Pastors are to declare men pardoned , that God pardoneth : And while they so judge according to Gods Word , it is pardoned in Heaven : But not if they pardon the wicked and impenitent . The Fifteenth accused Point . That we ought not to confess our Sins to any man but to God only . Ans . This is a mere impudent Lie. 1. We ought to confess our Sin , to the Magistrate at his Judicature , when we are justly accused of it . 2. And to those that we have injured , when it is needful to repair the wrong , or to procure their forgiveness . 3. And to those that we have tempted into Sin , or encouraged in it , when it is needful to their Repentance . 4. And to some faithful bosome Friend , when it is needful that such know our Faults , that they may watch over us , or advise us , or pray for our pardon and deliverance . 5. And when in Sickness , danger of Death , or other Affliction , we get the Pastors of the Church to pray for us ; we should confess our Sin to them , that they may know on what cause they speak to God for our forgiveness . 6. And in any case of Guilt , Trouble , Fear , or Difficulty , in which we need the Pastors Counsel for our safety , ease and peace of Conscience , our selves and other Friends being insufficient hereto , we should confess our Sins to the Pastors , whose advice we seek : As a Patient must truly open his Case to his Physician , and a Clyent to his Councellor , if he will not be deceived , by deceiving them . Is all this no Confession ? But Protestants believe not , 1. That we must go to a Physician for every Flea-biting , or Scratch , or Cut-Finger , or to a Lawyer to give him an account of all our Actions , Money , ot Lands ; nor to Priests in cases that our selves or ordinary Friends can safely and satisfactorily resolve . 2. Nor that our Confessor must needs be a Papist Priest , or one chosen by the Pope , or our Enemies ; and not by our selves . 3. Nor that we must open all our Secrets to him ; or make any Confession , which will do more hurt than good ; nor over far to trust the Fidelity of a Knave , nor a suspected or untryed person . 4. And we have reason to suspect them that are importunate to know our Secrets . 5. And when Confession is required , as in order to obtain a false forged pardon , and to set up the Domination of Usurpers over men's Consciences , and over the World , it 's then unlawful : If Protestants would force Papists to confess all their secret Sins to them , would not this same Deceiver say , it were unlawful ? The Sixteenth accused Point . That Pardons and Indulgences were not in the Apostles time . Ans . Another meer Lie , as undistinguished . Such Pardons as I before owned were in the Apostles times : But the Popish feigned pardons were not . The Seventeenth accused Point . That the actions and passions of the Saints do serve for nothing to the Church . Ans . Most impudent calumny and falsehood . 1. We hold that the Prayers of all the Saints on Earth , are of great importance for the Churches welfare . 2. And that their Doctrine , Counsel , and Reproof is so too , they being the Lights of the World , and the Salt of the Earth . 3. And that their Example is of grea● benefit to the Church and World , whi●● their Light so shineth before men , that the● may see their good works , and glorifie the●● Father which is in Heaven . 4. And their Charitable Works of themselves , sure are beneficial to the Church : And so is their Defence of the Truth . 5. And their Sufferings Glorifie Gods Power , and his promises of reward ; and they encourage others to Victorious Constancy . Do all these serve for nothing to the Church ? 6. Yea , we are so far from holding what he feigneth , that it is not the least cause of our hatred of Popery , that it liveth by the Defamations , Slander , Persecution , and cruel Murder of Saints . 7. Yea , as Abels Blood cryed against Cain , so the Blood of Martyrs , and dead Saints , cryeth for Vengeance against the Persecutors of the Church . 8. And seeing Christ saith , that the Children of the Resurrection are like or equal to the Angels , we have reason to believe that even now they are perfected Spirits , Heb. 12.24 . And knowing that Angels are very serviceable and beneficial to the Church on Earth , we know not how far the Spirits of the just are so too . But we have a sufficient Mediator and Advocate with the Father , whose Sacrifice , Merits , and Advocation are perfect , and need no supplement : And the Spirits of the just do praise him as saved by his Merits , and never boast that they have of their own a Redundancy to save others . But we all with thankfulness confess , that God useth to bless the Houses of the Faithful ; the Children for the Parents sake , and hath exprest this in the Decalogue , and by many Promises : Yea , that he would have spared Sodom , had there been but Ten Righteous persons there : And a Potiphars House , and a Prison may be blest in part for Josephs sake . And when Parents are Dead , this blessing may be on their Children , through many Generations . And God remembred Abraham , when his Posterity provoked him . David had a special promise for his Seed . None of this is denyed by us . But , 1. There is no Merit in any mans Works , but their Rewardableness by Gods free Grace and promise , for the sake of Christs meritorious Righteousness , Sacrifice , and Intercession , their Imperfection being pardoned through him , and their Holiness amiable to God. 2. No man shall be saved for anothers Merit , or Holiness , or Works , that is not truly Regenerate and Holy himself . The Eighteenth accused Point . That no man can do Works of Supererrogation . Ans . Supererrogation is a sustian word of your own , by which you may mean what you please . 1. No man can perform to God , more Duty than he oweth him : It 's a Contradiction ; Duty is quod debetur . 2. No man can profit God by any thing that he doth . 3. No man , save Christ , lived wirhout all Sin : And he that sinneth doth not all his Duty , or keep all Gods Law perfectly . And he that doth not all , doth not all and more . 4. There is no Moral good done by any man , which was not his Duty , and Gods Law commanded not : For Gods Law is perfect , and therefore obligeth to all Moral good : And as Sin is the Transgression of the Law , so Moral good is the conform Obedience to the Law. 5. God hath not Counsels to Moral action , which are not obliging Laws , and make not our Duty . For to keep them is Moral good , and the Law were imperfect if it obliged not to all such good . If the Counsel oblige ut norma officii , it 's a Law : If it oblige not , it 's vain . 6. But there are many actions that are neither Commanded , nor Counselled , nor forbidden : But those are not Moral actions , as being no objects of our Choosing or Refusing by Reasons Conduct . The nictus oculorum , our Breathing , our Pulse , the Circulation of the Blood , &c. are no Moral acts , Commanded or forbidden , but necessitated : Man maketh it no act of deliberation and choice , which Foot he shall set forward first , or just how many Steps he shall go in a Day ; which of two equal Eggs he shall Eat , and an hundred such . These are neither Duty nor Sin , Commanded , nor Counselled , nor forbidden ; neither virtuous or vicious . 7. And there are innumerable actions , that are not the Matter of any Common-Law or Counsel , and so as such , are neither Sin nor Duty , which yet as Circumstantiated and Cloathed with Accidents , are to this or that man either Duty or Sin. This not understood , maketh these Ignorant Casuists abuse the words of Christ and Paul , about Chastity , and Marriage . And because Christ saith , every man cannot receive this Saying , and Paul , she hath not Sinned : He that Marrieth doth well , and he that doth not , doth better ; they gather that there are Moral actions which are not best , and yet no Sin. The true plain solution is from the two last Considerations . 1. God hath made no Law commanding or forbidding Marriage , or Celibate as such , or in Common . To Marry is no Sin , considered meerly as Marriage . 2. But God hath made Laws against hurtful and injurious Marriages , and to guide men to know , when Marrying is a Duty or a Sin. 3. And if any ones case were so neutral , as that it could not be discerned , whether Marrying were a hurt or benefit , it would be no Moral , eligible or refuseable action . 4. But to some it is a great Duty by accidents , and to some a great Sin. Therefore Paul never meant that it was no mans duty , and no mans sin , but only that simply as Marriage it was no mans duty or sin , or the matter of a commanding or forbidding Law , but only by accident , it may be such to one more than to another . That this is Pauls meaning , the Papists must confess . For 1. Do not they say that the Marriage of Priests , Fryars and Nuns are Sin ? 2. If any one Marry an Infidel , or utterly unsuitable Person , without necessity , against Parents wills , or one that is impotent , or hath the Pox , or that he cannot maintain , & c. ? Is not this a hainous Sin ? What else signifie Gods Law , and mans , against unlawful Marriages . And if one cannot live chastly without Marriage , and Parents command it , it is not a Sin to refuse ? The Law saith , Let all things be done to Edification , and whether ye Eat or Drink , or whatever ye do , do all to the glory of God. And is it only Counsel and no Command , to Marry or not Marry , as it makes to Gods Glory or against it ? There are few actions of a mans Life , that make so much to his hurt , and utter misery , as unwise and unmeet Marrying . And is this on Sin ? May they not see Pauls meaning then , if they were but willing ? It is hard to imagine a case in which so important an action as Marriage , can be neither Sin nor Duty . 2. But sometime men use the word [ Sin , ] and [ Sinners , ] for meer Wickedness , and such Sin as is inconsistent with a state of Salvation . And we easily grant , that all Sins are not such Sins as these ; But Gods Law is perfect , tho' man be imperfect , and forbiddeth all Sin , even the least . 3. But see the Heresies of Popery ? This man here saith , [ To do that which is Counselled , is not necessary , because one may nevertheless be saved : But he who omitteth what is commanded , ( unless he do pennance , ) cannot escape Eternal pains . ] 1. See here what a frivolous Counseller they make Christ , when it 's not necessary to follow his Counsel . 2. See here how they make Necessity to be only of that which a man cannot be saved without : When Saul a Persecutor , and Blasphemer , an Infidel , Murderer , &c. may be saved , if he be truly Convicted : Obedience hath it's Necessity , tho' we knew that God would forgive Disobedience , to the Convicted . 3. See here how they damn themselves and all mankind , every man living omitteth what is commanded many hundred times , for which he doth not that which they call Pennance . He is a Lyar , that saith he hath no Sin , specially of Omission . Gods Law bindeth us all to Believe , to Hope , to desire Holiness and Heaven , to love God and our Neighbours , and our Enemies , with a stronger degree of Faith , Hope , Desire , and Love , than we do : Every Prayer , and Meditation is sinfully defective : Every hour hath some omission of improvement : And all this is not remembred , nor all confest to a Priest , nor all known or observed by any Sinner : And some omission we are guilty of at our very Death , by gradual defect of Faith , Hope , Patience , Love , Content , and Joy. And must all these go to Hell ? 4. Seeing by Penance they mean not bare Repentance , but making God satisfaction by a task , of Penalty laid on them by a Priest , ye see how they damn themselves , would be the Masters of all others Salvation , by their Pennances . 5. But it 's like that Purgatory is included by them in Pennances ; or else no man should go to Purgatory , but all to Hell : For all have many omissions of commanded Duty , which they did no Pennance for in this Life . 6. But you see of how little value they judge Christs Sacrifice and Merit , that pardoneth no omission of a duty without Pennance , and Satisfaction truly . The Nineteenth accused Point . That by the fall of Adam , we have all lest our Free-will , and that it is not in our power to choose good , but only Evil. Ans . Reader , I must desire thee not to judge of all the Learned Papists , by this Deceiver : For if thou hast read the loads of Voluminous Controversies about Grace and Free-will among themselves , it will remain doubtful to thee , whether this mans stating the Protestants Doctrine , prove him ignorant of it , or a willing Cheater . He tells you not , that this is as much a Controversie among themselves , as with the Prorestants . He tells you not , how Augustine and Palagius managed it , and that their Pope Celestine took Augustines part : He tells you not , that the Thomists , Dominicans , Oratorians , and most Nominals , and Scotists , say as much against Free-will as we do , and we as much for it as they . He supposeth that you never read what Lombaerd , Aquinas , Bradwardine , Cajetane , Ferrariensis , Zumel , Bannez , Alvarez , Aegedius Romi , Capreolus , and a Multitude more , say as much , and many more , against Free-will , than the Protestants : He tells you , not that even the Learned Jesuits , Suarez , Vasquez , Bellarmine , with Penottus , and many such , are as much against Free-will , as most Learned Protestants . The man takes you for a Herd of silly Animals , that know not but that he saith true , what falshood soever he shall tell you : But the truth of the Controversie is this : 1. The Protestants loath so silly a stating of Controversies , as this chat of Free-will without distinction : And so of Power . 2. They know that Physical , Moral , and Political Freedom of will , are not all one thing . Physical Freedom or Power , is that by which the natural faculty of the will , can determine it self to act , ( not without a superiour Cause , but ) without any extrinsick or intrinsick Coactor , or necessitating cause of Evil. Moral Freedom and Power , is that by which the will is from under the overstrong Byas of a vicious Disposition , or deceitful Argument . 3. Political Freedom is , when no Law of God or Man obligeth him to any Evil , but all to good . Prothestants hold , 1. That Physical Liberty and Power , is common to man , as man. That is , that he wants not natural faculties to choose aright , but a right Inclination : And that he sinneth not for want of such faculties , but for want of their right disposition and action . 2. That all men have just so much , and no more Moral Liberty and power , as they have of Gods Grace , to Relieve their vitiated wills and dispositions , and to help them in the act . No man is freed from vitious Inclinations , further than Gods Grace freeth him , which is much more where there is special Grace and strong , than where there is but common Grace or weak . And that the Thraldom or Impotency of the Vitious , is but the disease of their wills , and aggravation of their Sin : e. g. Where the Drunkard or Fornicator saith , I cannot forbear my Sin : He is so much the worse and more unexcuseable . 3. Every man hath not only Political Liberty to avoid Sin , but much more , even Gods urgent Precepts , Promises , and Threats : God doth not only give us Leave , but commandeth us not to Sin. 1. It is the very Essence of the will to be a natural power of faculty of willing good and nilling evil , as such , as so apprehended by the intellect , and commanding the inferior faculties , some politically , and some despotically , some difficultly , some easily , some perfectly , some imperfectly , according to it's resolution and their receptivity . 2. Libertas hominis , when a man may have what he chooseth , is more than Libertas Voluntatis , which is but the Mode of it's self determination ; as without constraint it is a self determining principle , of its own elicite acts , considered comparitively . Which is , 1. Liberty of contradiction , or Exercise , viz , to will or not will , nill or not nill . 2. Liberty of Contrariety , or Specification of the Act , viz. To will this or nill it . 3. Liberty of Competition , to will This object or That : To nill This or That , ( of which see Robert Baronius his Metaphysicks . ) The will hath such various sorts of Liberty , and the word [ Free-will ] is so ambiguous , that it is a shame , and irksome to read a pretended Teacher , state a case thus indistinctly , Whether we have Free-will or power to choose good and refuse evil : He is no man that hath no such Free-will and power . And no man hath all sorts of Free-will and power . Nay , as Liberty is opposed to Necessity ▪ every man is necessitated to will Good as Good , and nill Evil as Evil , and can do no otherwise : And whenever he willeth Evil , it is sub ratione bon● , mistaking it for good : And who-ever nillleth good , doth it falsely , sub ratione malt . The will is free from Constraint to Sin : God will not so constrain it : Men , Devils , Objects , cannot . He that had read but their Pennattus and Gibi●uf only , would see what a shame it is thus confusedly to talk for or against Free-will . But that which Protestants deny , is this . 1. They deny that mans will in his unregenerate State , is free from a Vitious Inclination , or from the Conduct of an Erring Intellect , or from the Byass and Temptation of Sensuality , or vitiated Senses and Imagination ; or from the Temptations of Satan and the World. 2. They deny that the will thus Vitiated and Tempted , will ever deliver it self without Gods Spirit and Grace ; being rather inclined to grow worse . 3. They deny that this Grace is perfect in any in this Life , as without all defect in degree , or totally freeth any man from all Sin : and therefore they deny that any mans will is perfectly and inculpably free from every degree of vice and danger . 4. And as that degree of common Grace which is in the unregenerate , is but such as consisteth with the predominance or Reign of Sin , so that will of every unregenerate man in that pravity , is as a slave to it 's own , vitious disposition , and to Errour , Objects , and Temptations ; being not delivered as to the predominance . 5. Yet we believe that common Grace is such , that these men are not utterly void of all good Inclination , and knowledge ; and therefore that in Moral Sence , every man can do more good , and less Evil than he doth : And that men perish , because not only they will not ( by pravity ) do what they have natural strength to do , but also because they will not choose and do what morally they might have chosen and done , as to the wills own power . 6. And we still say , that whenever a man sinneth , it was not because it was naturally impossible to do otherwise , ( as to touch the Moon , to see without Eyes , or through the Earth , &c. ) nor for want of natural faculties , nor doth God by Grace , give man other natural faculties , making him an Animal of another Species : But men sin because they will sin , and they will because they are tempted and now vitiously inclined ; from which their wills are made free only in that measure , that Gods Grace doth sanctifie them . If our Priest would have told us , what there is in all this Doctrine of Free-will , that he dare accuse , ( and what dare he not cccuse , ) we should have seen cause to consider of his Arguments : But now he citeth Scripture as in a Dream . The Twentieth accused Point . That it is impossible to keep the Commandments of God , tho' assisted with all his Grace and the Holy Ghost . Ans . Still meer Confusion . Protestants distinguish , 1. Impossibility as natural or Moral ; 2. Of Grace as perfect or Imperfect , and as determitately Operative , or only Assisting and not Determining . And they hold , 1. That no Duty is Impossible , ( or the performing of no Commandment , ) by meer Physical Impossibility : The reason is , because God commandeth no Physical Impossibles : Such as before named , to speak without a Tongue , to see without Light or Object , to know things not knowable or revealed , to read without any Teaching or Learning , &c. If a man indeed disable himself , as put out his Eyes that he may not read , or cut out his Tongue that he may not Preach ; the disabling act is vitiously aggravated , from all the good to which he disabled himself , as if it still had been his Duty : But we cannot say that God still commandeth him when Blind to Read , or when Dumb to Speak , &c. Indeed God changeth not his Law ; but recipitur ad modum recipientis : The man hath changed his Capacity , and is now no Subject capable of such an Obligation or Command ; tho' he be capable of punishment for disabling himself , and Non-performance : Sin is no further Sin than it is Voluntary , by the wills Omission or Act , immediately or mediately . 2. But that it is Morally by our pravity now Impossible , for any man to keep all Gods Commandments and never Sin ; what needs there more than sad experience of the matter of Fact. 1. Did he ever know the man himself , that from his first use of reason to his Death , did spend every minute of his time as God commanded him , and did Believe , and Love God and Man , and all good , with as great Love as God commanded him ? And was as free from every Fault , Thought , Passion , Desire , Fear , Care , Trouble , Pleasure , Word and Deed as God commanded ? He would be no small Sinner that were so self ignorant , proud , unhumbled , as to say that he is no Sinner . 2. Why else do these Priests force all men to confess their Sins to them , if men be such as never sinned ? 3. Why do they compose all their Liturgies and Offices for their Churches , with Confessions of Sin ; and Prayers for Forgiveness ? 4. Why do they Baptize all , if they have no Sin ? And in what Sence do they give them the Eucharist ? 5. How little use do they feign such men to have of a pardoning Saviour ? 6. In what Sence shall such say the Lords Prayer , Forgive us our Sins or Trespasses ? 7. Doth not the Text expresly call him a Lyar that saith he hath no Sin ; as aforesaid : And Christ condemn the Pharisee that justified himself , and justified the confessing Publican ? But it 's like he will say that he did not mean , that any man doth keep all the Commands , but that he can do it , tho' he do not . Ans . I again say , 1. He can as to natural strength , if he were but perfectly and constantly willing : But it cannot be that he should be so willing without Grace , and Grace is not perfect in this Life . 2. The more he boasteth of his Power to keep all Gods Laws , the more he condemneth himself that can and will not . 3. And frustra fit potentia quae nunquam & a nemine reducitur in actum : If he confess that no man doth it , he must confess such a Moral impossibility as the Prophet meant , that said , Can the Leopard change his Spots , or the Blackmore his Skin ? Then may they that are accustomed to do Evil , learn to do well . But perhaps he meant not that it is possible to keep all the Commands , for all our Lives , but for some short time ? I answer , 1. While a man hath the use of his Reason , he doth not reach the commanded degree of Faith , Love , Joy , Heavenlyness , one moment of time : But indeed , when a man is asleep , in a Swoun , an Apoplexy , stark mad , &c. he may for that time break no Command , nor keep any . But perhaps he speaketh but of sincere Obedience , and not of absolute sinless perfection . Ans . If so , he is a deceiver to feign that we deny it : But their Doctrine of Perfection and Supererogation is contrary . Obj. But he speaketh not what man can do without Grace , but by it's assistance . Ans . Grace maketh no man absolutely sinless , and perfect in this Life . Let him know , that Protestants do not only say that man by Gods Grace may keep Gods Commandments sincerely , ( tho' not sinlesly and perfectly , ) but that no man of Age and Reason shall be saved that doth not so . 2. And that tho' all our Obedience be imperfect , the Imperfections are pardoned , and our Obedience accepted and rewarded , for the Merits of the perfect Obedience , Sacrifice , and Intercession of our Saviour . The One and Twentieth accused Point . That Faith only Justifieth , and that good Works are not absolutely necessary to Salvation . Ans . Many wordy Controversies are made about things , that in Sence men are commonly agreed in . 1. We all believe Gods Word , that they were deceived that thought they could be justified either by the Law of Innocency or Nature , or the Law of Moses , or any meritorious Works of their own , without , or as a supplement to the Sacrifice , Merits and free Grace of Christ our Saviour , and Faith in him . 2. By Faith is meant Christianity : In the Gospel it is all one to be a Believer , a Disciple of Christ , and to be a Christian. The Christian Faith is that which is exprest in the Baptismal Covenant , believing in and giving up our selves to , God the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost : To Christ as our Prophet , Priest and King , to be saved by his Merits and free Grace : And this is put in opposition to the Works of Adam's or Moses Law , or any other that are conceited to suffice and merit , without the foresaid Redemption by Christ . And is not this the true Doctrine of all true Christians ? 2. These good Works that are our Obedience to the Law of Christ , are but the performance of our Baptismal Covenant , and the Fruits of Faith , without which it is dead Hypocrisie , and are of absolute necessity to Salvation , to all that have time to do them . Against the charge , That we are Sinners deserving Hell , we are justified by Christ believed in : Against the accusation , That we are Infidels , Ungodly , Hypocrites , we must be justified by our Faith , Godliness , and Works , or perish . But we do also hold , 1. That if a man be convicted , as the Theif on the Cross , and should die suddenly , no outward good which he cannot do , is absolutely necessary to his Salvation , but only his inward Faith , Love , and Repentance , and Confession if able . 2. We do firmly hold , that Works done with a conceit of obliging God by Merit , in commutative Justice , or as conceited sufficient without a Saviour , and the pardon of their failings , are such as more further Damnation than Salvation , at least in those that hear the Gospel . 3. And we are no Papists , and therefore believe not that ignorant words of Prayer in a Tongue not understood , and wearing Reliques , and going on Pilgrimages , and needless confessing to Priests , and subjection to an universal Vice-Christ , and living upon the Blood of Saints , Murdering the Living , and praying to the Dead , and the Sons honouring their Days , Relicks and Monuments , whom their Fathers Burnt or Persecuted ; these are not Good Works necessary to Salvation , as is plain , Math. 23. and Revel . 14.17 , 18 , &c. We do , with Paul , renounce all Works of our own , that are thought to make the Reward to be of Debt and not of Grace , and that are set in the least opposition or competition with Christs Merits , or any place save commanded Subordination to him . The Two and Twentieth accused Point . That no Good Works are Meritorious . Ans . The word Merit is ambiguous , and so abused by Papists , that indeed the Protestants are shyer of it than the Fathers were , lest the use of it should cherish the abuse . 1. There is Merit of man , and of God. 2. And this in Commutative Justice ( conceited , ) or only in Governing distributive Justice . 3. And this is either according to the Law of Innocency or Moses , or according to the Law of Christ . Now Protestants hold , 1. As to the Name , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , worthy and worthiness , are Scripture words , and may be used ; and Merit is but of the same signification , and we condemn not the Ancients that so used it : But the worst Sence must not be cherished . 2. Do they hold , 1. That no Creature can merit of God in Commutative Justice , that giveth quid pro quo to his Benefit : God receiveth not from Man or Angels ; unless he will call Acceptance and Complacence Receiving . 3. None but Christ merited of strict Governing Justice , according to the Law of Senceless Innocence , nor by any Works that will save man from the charge of Sin and desert of Death . 3. All at Age that will be saved , must have good Works according to their Capacity , for Christ is the Author of Salvation , to all those that obey him . Heb. 5.9 ▪ Tho' they obey not an unknown Priest at Rome . But all these Works are our Obedience to Christs own healing Government , such as the Laws of a Physician to the Sick. And we all agree , that he will Judge ( that is , Justifie or Condemn in Judgment ) all men according to their Works , that is , according to the Law and it's promulgation , by which in their several Ages and Nations he governed them . 4. Your own Doctors that know what they say , tell us , that by Merit , they mean nothing but the Rewardable quality of their acts , related to Gods promise through Christs Merits . And doth any Protestant Church deny this ? The Three and Twentieth accused Point . That Faith once had , cannot possibly be lost . Ans . Still confused slander and deceit . Protestants hold , 1. That the Faith not rooted , prevalent and saving , is frequently lost , such as you call sides informis . 2. That even sincere Faith may be lost , as to the Act for some little time , that is , suspended in a deliquium , as Peters and theirs , Luk. 24. that said , We trusted this had been he , &c. 3. That many lose to the Death some degree of their habitual Faith. 4. But they differ in the rest , just as you do among your selves , Dominicans and Jesuits . 1. Some think that no one ( at Age at least ) in a State of such Faith as at present would have saved him , doth ever totally lose it . 2. Some think that many have but such loseable Grace as Adam had . 1. As being not Elect to Salvation , and therefore not in Gods decree of Preservation and Perseverance , 2. As having a Faith not Rooted and Confirmed : And that these may fall from a justified State : But that , 1. The Elect. 2. Nor the Confirmed , never fall away . This was Austins Judgment , and his followers , of which see Vossii Theses . And is that Jesuit honest that feigneth this proper to the Protestants , where the Controversie is the same among themselves ? The Four and Twentieth accused Point . That God by his will and inevitable decree , hath ordained from all Eternity , who shall be Damned and who Saved . Ans . What a false Deceiver is this , that would make us believe , that this is proper to the Protestants , when it is the Common Doctrine not only of the Dominicans , but of the very Jesuits themselves , and all their Church . 1. None of them dare say , that men are Damned or Saved without Gods foreknowledge , nor against his absolute will , by overcoming his Power . 2. None of them dare say , that this fore-knowledge of God was not from Eternity , but that he knew one day what he knew not before . 3. All that the Jesuits themselves say , is , that God decreed it upon this fore-knowledge , and that he hath a Scientia media , what will come to pass , positis quibusdam , if such and such things be done by man ; and that this fore-knowledge in order of Nature is before the Decree , but both from Eternity . But Cardin Cameracensis ( Petrus de Aliaco , ) hath irrefragably confuted this imposing Priority and Posteriority of act on God ; tho' I think some Divine acts as denominated only Relatively from the order of Objects , may be so distinguished . 4. In all this , we say not , that God hath by his will and decree ordained from Eternity , ( or in time ) that men shall sin , or will and choose Evil , but only who shall be Damned for sin , which God never willed or caused , but foresaw ; not as if he were an idle Spectator , but a willing suspender of his own acts , so far as to leave Sinners to their self-determining wills . 5. But God being the cause of Good , and Men and Devils of Evil , our Salvation is of him , and our Destruction of our selves ; and therefore God decreeth not Men's Salvation or Sanctification , meerly on foresight of our Faith , but decreeth our Faith it self : Sin he permitteth , but Faith , he effecteth , and decreeth to Effect . 6. As for them that feign that we say , that God decreeth that some shall be Saved and others Damned however they Live ; it is but the dictates of the Father of Lies : We say that God at once decreeth the End , and the Means ; as he doth not decree that men shall live though they neither Eat nor Drink , nor that they shall have Corn , though they neither Plow nor Sow , but that they shall Eat and Drink , and live thereby ; and that they shall Plow and Sow , and mannure the Soil , and so have Corn. So God doth at once decree , [ that this and that man shall have the means of Grace , ( especially a Saviour and the Gospel , ) and shall faithfully use them , and be Sanctified by them , and sincerely obey God , and overcome the World , the Flesh and the Devil , and persevere to the End , and that for Christs Merits he will give them the Grace of his Spirit , and pardon their Sins , and bring them to Glory . ] All this is our Decree of God. But he doth not decree that men shall sin , that they may be Damned : For sin is no Work of God , nor a means appointed by him for Men's Damnation , no more than a Righteous King doth make men Traytors or Murderers , that he may Hang them . But he justly denyeth his Grace to many that forfeit it by willful Resistance , Disobedience , and Contempt ; though he take not the forfeiture of his Elect. He is deceived and wrongeth God that maketh him the Author of Men's sin : And so doth he that feigneth God to send his Son to redeem the World , and his Word and Ministers to call them , and his Spirit to renew them , and all this at Random , not knowing whether it may not be all lost , or leaving it chiefly to the Free-will of them , whose wills are contrarily inclined and vitiated ? Whether Christ and all his Preparations shall be lost ? The plain Christian that holdeth but to these two points , that our Destruction is of our selves , but our help and Salvation of God , and that God is the first and chief cause of all good , and Men and Devils of all Evil , is liker to be wise with Sobriety and Safety , than the Ignorant Intruders into Gods Secrets , and the prating Calumniators that speak Evil of the things which they understand not ; and reproach those that speak not as Rashly and Ignorantly as themselves , even in some equivocal unexplained words Methinks Papists should be so kind to God , as seeing the Pope can tell who is a Damned Heretick , and to be kill'd , ( even all that believe not in the Pope , or are not his Subjects , ) and who is in Purgatory , and how long he shall stay there : Or how many years Torment the Pope can shorten : They should allow God to know a little more , and that not as one whose Power and Grace is Conquered by impotent Worms , against his absolute Will. The Five and Twentieth accused Point . That every one ought Infallibly to assure himself of his Salvation , and to believe that he is of the number of the Predestinate . Ans . I would fain excuse the man as far as I can , and therefore I hope , that as the man was excusable that did eat Snakes for Snigs , ( or Eels , ) so he read some Pamphlet of an Antimonian , either Crisp or Saltmarsh , or some other such , or talkt with some of their silly Novices , and thought he had Convers'd with the Reformed Catholicks , or read the Confessions of the Reformed Churches . The first Sentence is a Fundamental Truth , and a damnable Falshood , as the Equivocal words are variously understood . And is it not pity that the Priests of the Infallible Church , should put things so different into the same words , and that in an accusation of so many Churches and Nations ; when yet God himself is feigned by them to write by his Spirit so Unintelligibly , that without these Doctors skilful Exposition , it is but like to make men Hereticks , ( that is , Adversaries to the Pope and his Clergy . ) To assure our selves of our Salvation [ may mean , to give all diligence to make our Salvation infallibly sure : This every one ought to do . ] Or it may mean , that every man ought to believe it as an infallible Truth , that he shall be saved . ] The next Sentence seemeth to make this his meaning in the first : Which if it be , he is a false Calumniator of the Reformed Churches . But if the first be his meaning , and he deny it , he is an open Enemy to Man's Salvation . What is all the Scripture for , and all our Religion , but to make sure of our Salvation ? 2 Pet. 1. 10. Give all diligence to make your Calling and Election sure . And if no man can be sure , to what purpose hath God made so many promises of it , expressing the Conditions , ( to them that believe , that love God , that forsake all for him , ) if no man can know whether he perform the Condition , and that he is within this promise ? Why doth God lay down so many signs to difference the Children of God from the Children of the Devil , if they cannot be discerned ? Sure Heaven and Hell be not like ; and yet are the Heirs of Heaven and Hell undistinguishable ? Is the Image of God and the Devil so like that none can know them asunder ? No , not the man that hath had them both ? And why doth God so aften call on Believers to Rejoyce , if they cannot know whether they shall be in Heaven and Hell for ever ? If you say , he is not sure to persevere , many Papists grant that the Confirmed may . And why may not Bradford , Hooper , Sanders , and Thousands else , that are Dying by the Sacred blood-thirsty Church , be assured when they are Dying , that they have forsaken Life and all for Christ . But oportet mendacem esse memorem still : Why do you not tell men when the Pope is selling them Pardons , and saving them out of Purgatory , that when all 's done they can have no assurance of Salvation ? yea , that they ought not to endeavour to make it sure ? And whose now is the safe Church and Religion , if a Papist can never be sure that he shall be saved in your Church and Religion ; nor sure that he is in a State of Salvation ? That is , that he is a true Christian , and hath Charity , and is an honest man ? 2. A man that hath got true and clear Evidence that he hath a Confirmed Faith , and Hope , and loveth God , as God above all , ought consequently to take it for an infallible Truth , that so Dying , he shall be saved : Else he must either give God the Lie , that hath promised it , or he must be supposed to be deceived when he thinketh that he believeth and loveth God. But that every man must believe that he is of the Number of the Predestinate to Salvation , is a damnable Doctrine , because it requireth all the Millions of ungodly men to believe a Lie , yea to believe it as a Divine Truth , and to make God both the Author of the Lie , and of the deceit of our selves by this Command . And when Millions are not of the Number of Sanctified , and therefore not of the Predestinate , if they so continue , what can more harden them in their Impenitence , than to tell them that they must all believe that they shall be saved ? How many hundred Protestant Books , and thousand Sermons tell the World that it is the Preachers earnest drift , to save Wicked men from such Presumption , which makes men call them terrible Preachers ? Every man is bound to believe Gods promise to be true , and that he himself shall be saved if he be a true penitent sanctified Christian , and so continue , and that else he shall be Damned ; and not to distrust God as unwilling to continue the Grace he hath given him . The Six and Twentieth accused Point . That every man hath not an Angel Guardian or Keeper . Ans . 1. We hold that every true Christian , even the least , hath his Angel who beholdeth the Face of his Father in Heaven : And that Angels are Gods Ministring Spirits , for the good of his Elect ; and that they guard us and pitch their Tents about us , and bear us up in their Hands , and keep us in and from Danger , and rejoyce at the Conversion of a Sinner , and that we live in invisible Communion with them , and shall be like them . 2. But whether every Christian have one Angel to himself alone , that guardeth no other , or one Angel guard Hundreds or Thousands : Or whether some ( as Lower Officers are set over a few , and others as General Officers are over whole Kingdoms , ) we leave to the determination of the Infallible Pope , who is bolder with Gods Secrets than we dare be . 3. But till now , I thought they had not been so presumptuous , as to assert that every man hath a Guardian Angel. Where is there one word of God for this ? Is every man an Heir of Salvation , or one of Christs little ones , or under his promise ? Had Cain and Judas such Angels , and all the Sodomites ? Christ made it an argument of Terrour to Persecutors , that they offend such as had such Angels with God : And dare you paint them as Devils , and Burn them , or Murder them by the Dragons Dragoons , if you believe that every man hath such a Guardian Angel ? Surely Saints , tho' called Hereticks , have such . The Seven and Twentieth accused Point . That the Holy Angels pray not for us , nor know our Thoughts and desires on Earth . Ans . A false accusation . We say not that they pray not for us , nor that they know not our desires , nor any of our Thoughts . We say that Angels are no such Strangers to Saints and sincere Godliness , as not to know that all Godly men desire the Hallowing of Gods Name , the coming of his Kingdom , and the doing of his Will on Earth as it is done in Heaven : They that know what Grace is , and what our Prayers are , know much of our desires : And we do not think that Angels know less of our Thoughts than Devils , who we feel to our Trouble are not altogether unacquainted with them . And those Angels that rejoyce at a Sinners Conversion , are not unacquainted with it . And as to their Praying , we know not how it is that Angels express their desires to God ; but we all agree that they desire our welfare , and therefore may be said to pray for it , if all notified Desire be Prayer . We suppose that they know and Love us , far better than we know and Love each other . But we read that the Heretical Gnosticks , or their like , did deceive men , [ by Voluntary Humility , and worshipping of Angels , intruding into those things which they had not seen , vainly puft up by a fleshly mind , ] Col. 2.18 , 19. Therefore we dare not pretend to Papal Infallibility , nor boldly to conjecture , how far it is that our Thoughts are known to Angels , nor how much they are ignorant of them ; nor when , or how oft , or how far , or in what manner they pray for us : How far particularly , and how far only generally , &c. Had this knowledge been needful to us , God would have revealed it : Much less do we know what Angel of what departed Soul of a Saint hath the care or charge of our Sheep , and of our Cattel , and who of our Pigs and Geese , and who of our Fruits and Corn ; abundance of these things we leave to the Infallible Church : As we do their acquaintance in Purgatory , while our acquaintance and Conversation in Heaven , can reach no higher than the prospect which we have in and by the Glass of Scripture Revelation . The Eight and Twentieth accused Point . That we may not pray to them . Ans . 1. We may desire Living Saints to pray for us , and this may be called Praying to them : So a Child prayeth to his Father or Master . But we pray not to dead Saints nor Angels : 1. Because we have an hundred Commands to pray to God , and not one to pray to them , and where there is no Law , there is no Transgression or Sin. Therefore while we are sure it is no Sin to forbear it , and know not but it is Sin to do it , we go the safe way : If they say , it is against the Popes Law or his Clergy's , we say with Paul , it is a small thing to us to be judged of man , ( who can but kill our Bodies , ) we have one that judgeth us , even the Lord. Let the Pope Damn us if he can . 2. As the first Commandment forbiddeth us to have any God but one , so the second forbiddeth us to worship so as the Heathens did their Idols , because it is Bodily interpretative Idolatry and Scandal : But the Heathens used to pray to their under Deities , whom they judged to be much like that which the Papists judge of Angels , and praying to Invisible Spirits is to imitate them as scandalously as praying toward Images : No wonder therefore that you so usually leave out the second Commandment . 3. Gods Word is the Rule of all acceptable Religious Worship , ( tho' but a General Rule in many Modes and Circumstances , ) and therefore we fear swerving from it . 4. Angels themselves never demanded it , nor Christ bespake it for them , yea , they twice forbad it John : See thou do it not . 5. Angels being more holy than we , are more for the Glory of God , and the hatred of Creature arrogance and Idolatry ; and as God calleth himself specially Jealous against bodily Worship like the Idolaters , in the second Commandment , so Angels are more jealous against it than we are . 6. As Angels said , See thou do it not , so contrarily Satan tempted Christ , with the offer of the Kingdoms and glory of the World , to fall down and worship him . Therefore we had rather hearken to the Angels than to Devils : And fear , they that do otherwise , worship Devils for Angels , because only Devils have sought such Worship . And the Devil oft turneth himself as into an Angel of Light to deceive , as his Ministers do into Ministers of Righteousness . 7. We know not when Angels hear us , and when they do not : And therefore know not when and how to pray to them . 8. As we are sure that God would have bid us do it , if he would have us do it , so we know that he is all sufficient to tell them what and when to doe for us ; and to pray to him is the way to secure their Service . 9. And we know that there is one Mediator between God and Man , whose Intercession is sufficient . 10. And we know that Christians praying to Angels and separated Souls , greatly hardeneth the Heathen World that pray to separated Souls , and Daemons that are their Sub-deities . 11. And when these men say not , we must pray to Angels , but we may do it ; what horrid Murderers are they , that will Burn , Kill , and Damn men , for not doing all that they think they may do , without any must or Divine Obligation ? Why take they it not at best , as part of their Works of Supererrogation ? 12. The Deceiver prophaning the Scripture , 1. Puts Jacobs Benediction desiring the Angels guard on his Son , to be a prayer to Angels . Yea , when the Fathers say , that Angel was Christ himself . 2. And Jacobs words to the Angel that appeared to him , to be a reason for our praying to unseen Spirits : If they appear to us , we shall the better know what and when to speak to them . The Nine and Twentieth accused Point . That the Angels cannot help us . Ans . This is too gross stating of Controversies for a Collier or a Cobler , tho' not for a Doctor of Infallible Church . 1. We say , that not only an Angel , but a Man , an Ass , ( as Balaams , ) a blast of Wind , Flies , Frogs , Lice ( as in Egypt , ) can help us , when God sendeth them to help us . 2. We believe that Angels are specially Empowred and willing for it . So that they are Gods Eminent Ministring Spirits for the good of his Elect. 3. But we believe that they can do nothing for us , but what God empowreth and Commissioneth them to do . He that Curseth those that trust in man , and make Flesh their Arm , instead of trusting God , will so Curse them that so trust in Angels . But yet we may and must trust man and Angels , according to their several measures of Gods authorizing and enabling them . The great Mercies of Protection and assistance that God giveth us by Angels , is the matter of much of our daily thanks to God : And I am daily thankful to Angels themselves ; and I think I love them better than any Friends on Earth , because they are better , and love God better : And I am the willinger to Die , because I shall go to the World of Love , where as God and Christ is Love , so Angels love God , and we for his sake , better than I love my self , while our Papists that pray to Angels , devour the blood of Saints . The Thirtieth accused Point . That no Saint Deceased , hath after appeared to any on Earth . Ans . A meer false Calumny . What Protestant Confessions have any such Article ? How know we what hath been done of that kind in all the World to this day ? Read but Dr. More , and Mr. Glanvils Books of Apparitions , and Mr. Ambrose , and Mr. Lawrences Books of our Communion with Angels . Read Zanchius , Luther , Melaucton , Manlius , Lavalu , &c. and you may see that this is no Protestant assertion . We know that Christ appeared to Saul , and that many Bodies of Saints arose at Christs Death , and appeared to many : And what the Witch of Endor showed as Samuel , we know not : We only say , 1. That it is much liker that Apparitions are oftest made by Devils or bad Spirits that dwell in the lower Regions , than that blessed Spirits come from Heaven . 2. But yet seeing Angels thence appear , we cannot say that Holy Souls never do . 3. But that God will not have it to be any ordinary or trusty means for Men's Salvation : For we cannot know when it is a Holy Soul , and when a Devil : And they that will not believe Moses and the Prophets , ( and Christ , ) neither will they believe tho' one rose from the Dead : It 's no Article of our Faith , that they ever did appear or not . And if these men think otherwise , why must this Opinion more than Ten thousand such , be obtruded as necessary on all others ? The One and Thirtieth accused Point . That the Saints Deceased , know not what passeth here on Earth . Ans . Confusion and Calumny . There is knowledge Immediate by Intention , and Mediate by Notification from others . And there is knowledge perfect , and in part . 1. We take not on us to know the extent of the knowledge of separated Souls . And these proud Infallible men know no more than we , but so much less , in that they know not their own Ignorance : Yet neither Lilly , nor any Astrologer , nor Conjurer , that ever I heard of , that pretendeth the greatest acquaintance with Spirits , did ever pretend to make their Opinions of them necessary to Salvation ; nor to kill all Dissenters as Hereticks , but the Vice-Christ and his Church , we cannot know all that they pretend to know . And why must we needs know whether ever such Souls appeared ? If they did , we will try what they are by the word of God , which is our Rule . And why must we know how much they know ? We know that they are not Omniscient , nor Omnipresent . And how much they know by present Intention , not one of these Pretenders know . That they know more than we , and know much by the notices of Angels or one another , and specially of the General State of Christs Kingdom on Earth , we make no doubt : And what Christ himself maketh known to them , we know not . O! what sort of men are these , that forbid us to Read the Word of God , and yet obtrude on us ( on dismal Penalties , ) so many things more than all the Bible doth contain ! The Two and Thirtieth accused Point . That the Saints pray not for us . Ans . Equivocal and false . 1. All Saints on Earth pray for us : It is part of the Communion of Saints . 2. We say of the Prayer of departed Souls , the same that we said before of the Prayer of Angels . Their General Requests for the Church and against Enemies , proveth not to us what extent their knowledge of particulars hath , nor what particulars they ask , nor that every Christian can say that they pray for him , and that in his particular cases . The Three and Thirtieth accused Point . That we ought not to beseech God , to grant our prayers in favour of the Saints , or their Merits : Nor do we receive any benefit thereby . Ans . This is before answered to the 17th . Accusation . I told you that we hold , that God blesseth Children for their Holy Parents sakes , their Relation making the welfare of the one to be the others : And God blessed others for Josephs sake , and sometimes preserveth whole Countries for the sake of the Godly there : And on what account , and how far , I will not again repeat . And the Union and Communion of Saints in Heaven and Earth are so near , that I dare not say that God doth any good to any one faithful Soul , that is not in some respect for the sake of all the rest ; as the Cure of an aking Tooth is for the sake of all the Body : That is , 1. For the good of the whole . 2. And done out of love to the whole . But this will not satisfie confounding Deceivers . No doubt it is dead Saints that he meaneth : And what he meaneth by Merits , I suppose he knoweth not himself ; or else he would have told us : How far we own , or abhor the pretence of Merits , I shewed before . All Saints are saved by the full sufficient Merits of Christ , and have none at all of their own , unless the amiableness of Grace freely given them be called their Merits , as a thankful Child more deserveth his Fathers Love , ( that is , is more Lovely ) than a Rebel that scorneth him ; and a piece of Gold deserveth to be esteemed above Dirt ; and a Nightingale above a Toad . Yea their own Jesuit Vasquez , not only denieth all Merit of God in Commutative Justice , ( as all save Romans and a few such Sots do , ) but also in point of distributive Justice , by which he seemeth to deny Merit more than Protestants do . For by Merit we mean but Moral aptitude , for the reward of a free Benefactor who is also Rector , when the ordering of a free Gift suspended on official Conditions , is sapientially made a means of procuring Obedience . Whatever God hath promised to give us for other Men's sake , that he will so give . But our Faith shall not go beyond his Promise : If God have told us any where , who Saint Nicolas , and St. Becket , and St. Christopher , and St. Joan , and St. Jane , and St. Winifrid are , and what they were to us more than others , and that they were real Saints , and that he hath promised us Mercy for their sakes , and bid us pray to him for their Meriting for us ; let them shew us this in his Word . But if it be only the Popes Command and Promise , let his Subjects obey and trust it . We are certain that none but Saints are saved : And why then must I go to God , for the Merits of St. Nicholas , or St. Bridget , any more than for the Merits of all the rest , which are many Millions ? As God is jealous of his Honour against Idols , so is he of Christs Honour against Antichrists and false Mediators , and we must do nothing that seemeth to ascribe any part of Christs proper Office of Mediation to any Creature : And doth it not seem so , if we pray , Lord hear , pardon and save me for the Merits of Becket or Bridget , &c. For what more can we say of the Merits of Christ ? But still mark , that these men say not that , we must pray thus for the Merit of Saints , but that we may : And must all be Burnt or Damned that will not do all that the Pope thinks they maey do ? That we receive no benefit by them , is a forged Calumny and not our Doctrine : We believe that the Jews had benefit by Abraham , Moses , David , when they were Dead : And that the Reformed Churches have had benefit by the Blood of the Martyrs , shed by the Blood-thirsty Papists to this day ; and that the whole Church hath benefit by the Writings of Chrysostom , Nazianzene , Augustine , &c. Luther , Calvin , &c. The Four and Thirtieth accused Point . That we ought not expresly to pray them to pray or intercede to God for us . Ans . There was enough said of this before , about praying to Angels . When God bids us pray to dead Men's Souls , we will do it . Till then your saying we may do it , proveth neither may nor must to us . Why then cannot you keep your [ may ] to your selves ? Never a Conjurer in England can tell us , how far Souls in Heaven can hear , nor where and when they are present or within hearing ; nor which of them are so , whether all , or one , or which ; No nor whether those Saints that understood not Latin on Earth , do understand Latin Prayers sent up from Earth , wh●●● the Speaker himself understandeth them not . Alas ! Christian Reader , what a dark uncertain Worship , like Charming , would this Infallible Church compell men to offer the most Holy God , while they accuse his Word of ensnaring dangerous obscurity . We will pray to those alive , that we know do hear us , to pray to God for us , for the sake of Christ : But it 's but profanation of the Scripture , to say , that because Luke 16 , a man in Hell supposed to see and hear Abraham , did pray him to send Lazarus on Earth ; therefore we that neither see nor hear the Dead , should pray to them . But Dives prayed in vain , and so may you . And what if those Souls should prove to be in Purgatory ? Must we pray both to them that are in Purgatory , and for them also ? And is it certain that the Pope and all his Church , are sure which Saint is not in Purgatory , when all are there or worse ( say they , ) that ever sinned and did not Pennance for it ? The Five and Thirtieth accused Point . That the Bones or Relicks of the Saints are not to be kept or reserved ; no Virtue proceeding from them after they be once dead . Ans . 1. Where hath God Commanded us to keep them , for the Virtue that proceedeth from them ? 2. We deny not but a man may keep a Skeleton or Skull , and if it be his Fathers , we will accuse him no higher than of Imprudence and Passion . But what proof have you of Virtue proceeding from Bones , till you see it by experience ? Is it any appointed means for God to work Miracles by ? And how know you that all were Saints that the Pope calleth so ? Had all the Debauched Popes of Anno 800 , 900 , 1000 , skill Infallible to know Saints from Hypocrites ? And hath God promised Virtue to all their Bones ? And are you sure that they are their Bones ? Alas ! what numerous Tricks have men to trust to , to deceive themselves and others , that yet will not obey Christs plain Commands , and trust his promise ! The Six and Thirtieth accused Point . That Creatures cannot be Sanctified , or made more holy than they are already of their own Nature . Ans . A down-right slander . 1. We believe that all men that shall be saved , are or shall be Sanctified , and made more holy than they are of their own Nature . 2. We believe that to the Pure , all things are Pure , and are Sanctified by the Word and Prayer : And that whatever we do , we should do it to the glory of God : And when a Christian devoteth and useth his Food , Estate , and all to Gods Service , it is Sanctified . 3. We believe that a Temple , a Font , a Table , and Utensils , may well be separated from common uses to Gods Worship : And that Separation is a sanctifying of them . To be Sanctified or Holy , is but to be separated from common use , to Gods special Service , according to the nature of the thing used . 1. Godly men are Sanctifyed and Saints , because by Soul-consent and Devotion , and Practice , they are sincerely separated to God , from the slavery of the World , the Flesh and the Devil ; being Habitually and Predominantly lovers of God and Holiness , by the grace of Christ and the Holy Ghost . 2. Professed Christians are Sacramentally Sanctifyed , when by outward Baptism , they are devoted to God in Christ . 3. Even bad Ministers are externally sanctifyed , as separated and consecrated to a Holy Office. 4. Temples , and Books , and Church Utensils are sanctifyed , when by men they are separated from common and unclean usage , to Gods Worship . So that tho' Holiness in all be this separation to God , yet , as the Persons and things are not the same , so neither is their Holiness in specie , but only in genere . And there is a Superstitious and an Idolatrous Mock-Holiness , when men will devote that to God and Holy uses which he abhorreth , or accepteth not , nor ever required of them : And say as the Hypocrite Pharisees , it is Corban , who required this at their hands ? The Hypocrites and Idolaters have always been forward for this unrequired Mock-Holiness , to quiet their Consciences , instead of real saving Holiness . It 's Cheaper and Easier to have Holy-Water , Holy-Oil , Holy-Spittle , Holy-Images , Holy-Crosses , Holy-Vestments of many sorts , Holy-Altars , Holy-Shrines , and Pilgrimages , Holy-Bones , and Chips and Places , than to have Holy-Hearts and Lives , which love God , and Grace , and Heaven , above all this World and Life it self , and by the Spirit mortify all fleshly Lusts . The Seven and Thirtieth accused Point . That Children may be saved by their Parents Faith , without the Sacrament of Holy Baptism . Ans . Can you unriddle this charge ? Whether the man mean that they may be saved by Baptism without their Parents Faith ? Or that both must be conjoyned as necessary to Salvation ? He will not tell us that . 1. That God hath made abundance of promises to the Seed of the Faithful , and taketh them into the Covenant of Grace with their Parents , and saith that they are Holy , 1 Cor. 7.14 ; Protestants have copiously proved against Anabaptists and Papists . But it is Gods Mercy , and Christs Merit , Grace , and Covenant , that they are saved by : The Parents Faith is but that Qualification and Relation , which maketh them receptive and capable of this saving Grace . The Parenrs Faith saveth themselves , but as the Moral ▪ qualifying disposition and condition of Gods saving Gift : And to Infants it is required , not that they be Believers , but Believers Seed , devoted to God by Parents or Pro-Parents , whose they are . 2. We doubt not , but regularly , where it may be had , this Dedication should be solemnly made by Baptismal Covenanting : Ask the Anabaptists whether we hold not this . But we believe , that as private Marriage maketh Husband and Wife before God , but solemn Matrimony is necessary for publick Order , without which they may be punished as Fornicators : So if an Infant be the Child of one believing Parent , dedicated to God , he is Holy and in the same Covenant with the Parent , ( and were else unclean : ) But that before the Church , he is not regularly to be judged in Covenant till it be solemnized in Christs appointed way by Baptism . Still excepting where Baptism cannot be had ; and there even sober Papists say , that the Votum , the Vow , or desire , will serve . And this necessity is manifold : 1. When the Child dieth , before Baptism could be had . 2. Where there is no capable Person to do it , or that will not utterly deprave it . 3. When the Parent is an Antipoedo-Baptist , and omitteth it , thinking it a Sin. If they think that the Infant is not saved by the Parents Faith , why should they think , that believing Parents Children are damned because the Parent Erreth in such an external thing ? But Papists , that turn other parts of Holiness into Form and Ceremony , and make a Religion of the Carkass mortifyed , would here also perswade People that the very outward act of Washing , is of so great moment with God , that though it were the holyest Persons or their Seed , a mistake , or a delay , or surprize of Death , will damn them if they be not Baptized , ( or Martyred . ) This tendeth to Subject all to the Mercy and Dominion of the Priests , that they may seem more necessary to Salvation than they are , or at least their external Forms , by Lay-men or Women Baptizers administred . Constantine himself , the Churches great Deliverer , was not Baptized till near his Death : Are they sure that he was till then in a state of Damnation , and had been Damned if he had so Died ? Methinks in gratitude , the Church of Rome , should have cast him no lower than the Torments of Purgatory . The Eight and Thirtieth accused Point . That the Sacrament of Confirmation is not necessary , nor to be used . Ans . You may so mean by the Word [ Sacrament ] and [ Confirmation , ] as that we do deny them . And you may so mean , as that we are more for them than you are . 1. If by a Sacrament , you mean one of Gods Institution , appointed by him to be his Solemn Delivery and Investiture in a state of Christianity or necessary Grace ; and if by Confirmation you mean Arch-Bishops anointing Infants , or Ignorant Children , or Persons , with hallowed Oyl , compounded once a year , and his Ceremonious boxing them , and such other Formalities ; then we deny that such Confirmation is any such Sacrament , nor is necessary , or to be used ; because Holy things are not to be mortyfied and profaned . 2. But if by a [ Sacrament ] you mean , but a Solemn renewal of our Covenant with God in Christ ; and by Confirmation you must , that those Baptized in Infancy should at due Age , understandingly , under the Pastors hand or Care , profess their serious personal Consent to that Covenant which by others they imputatively made in Baptism ; we are so far from denying this , that we think till this Solemn personal Covenanting , and owning their Baptism with understanding and seeming seriousness , be made , the Entrance into the state of Adult Church Communion , the woful Corruption of the Church is never to be well healed ; but while one side turn Confirmation into a dead Shadow and Mockery , and the Anabaptists scandalized Heresie , are all for Rebaptizing instead of Confirmation , Prophanation and Schism will gratifie Satan . You know , that the English Bishops practise Confirmation , and the Liturgy describeth it as I here do : And are the Church of England no Protestants ? And divers Protestant Non-Conformists here have about 29 and 30 years ago , written full Treatises for Confirmation . The Nine and Thirtieth accused Point . That the Bread of the Supper of our Lord was but a Figure , or Remembrance of the Body of Christ , received by Faith , and not his true and very Body . Ans . 1. Protestants hold , that as all words are to be taken according to the usage of the Subject or Science that they are used about , Physical Terms Physically ; Rhetorical Rhetorically , Geometrical , Astronomical , Arithemetical , accordingly , Law Terms according to Law , and Moral and Theological Terms Morally and Theologically ; so , if as Naturalists , we ask what the matter of that Sacrament is , we say Bread and Wine : If as Moralists and Theologues , we say , it is the Body and Blood of Christ : As if you ask of a Gold and Silver Coyn , what it is in a Natural Sence , we say , it is Gold and Silver : But if you ask in a Civil , Political and Law-Sence , we say , it is a 20 s. piece , a Jacobus , a Carolus piece , or it is a Crown , or a Shilling . So we say that Sacramentally and Morally , and Relatively , that which is naturally true Bread and Wine , is yet also the true Body and Blood of Christ : And we say not that it is only a Figure and Remembrance , but it is such a Figure as is Representatively his very Flesh and Blood : And it is to Deliver to us , and Invest us in a Spiritual Vnion with Christ himself , and right to his saving Grace . A proxy that as Representative of a Prince Marrieth a Foreign Lady , is more than a Remembrance ; and so is his Image , if it be used in the Marriage . A Key , or a Twig and Turf , by which Investiture in House and Land is delivered , and a Staff and Ring , by which Bishopricks were of old delivered by Investiture , are all more than a bare Remembrance . 2. As to your implied Doctrine of Transubstantiation , that after the words of Consecration , there is left no real Bread and Wine , it is Copiously and undenyably proved a Novel Doctrine , so monstrous , as if it had been formed to engage Mankind in a Renunciation of Christianity , Humanity , and common Senses , and to be an obliging profession of this Renunciation . It is enough for us to believe , that after the true Consecration , it is no more meer Bread and Wine , ( as after the Coyning a 20 s. Piece , a Crown , or a Noble , or an Angel , it is not meer Gold , but the said named Coyn. ) But if ever Satan shewed himself a Dragon , under the Name of an Angel of Light , it was when he made the Canons of the 4th . Laterane General Council under Innocent the 3d. that set up Transubstantiation , and the Murdering of all that deny it , of deposing Princes that will not exterminate them . This adjuncts and effects will shew the difference between this Counterfeit Sacrament and Christ . Christs Sacrament was instituted to be a Sacrament and Covenant of dearest Love between God and Man , and one another : But as Satan , when he Covenanteth with Witches , to sell him their Souls , must have it sealed by his sucking their Blood , so the seal that he set to the Monster of Transubstantiation , was that his Church and it must live by the blood of those that own it not . But what will convince men , that by Noise and Worldly Interest have Conquered all that is proper to a man , yea , or a living sensible Animal . 1. They pretend Christs Words , This is my Body , when they know that it was his ordinary parabolical phrase , and they will take this Physically and singularly as different from all the rest . Tho' he say , I am the Door , I am the Vine , and ye are the Branches , and my Father is the Husband-man , and the Field is the World , and the Tares are the Children of the Wicked one , and the Harvest is the end of the World , and the Reapers are the Angels ; they that received the Seed by the High-way , are they that , &c. And so he speaketh usually . 2. They know that in 1 Cor. 11. Paul calls it Bread after the Consecration , three times in the three next Verses : And would they have Burnt Paul for a Heretick ? What can they devise against these plain words ? 3. They sentence all to Death and Hell that will believe their Eyes , Taste , Feeling or any Sense of themselves , and all others , that perceiveth true Bread and Wine after Consecration . 4. Hereby they make God as Creator , the Grand Deceiver of the World , by deluding all Men's Senses . 5. And hereby they overthrow all certainty of Faith Divine and Humane . For Sense and Humanity are before Faith and Christianity , and their perception presupposed : And if Sense be presupposed fallible , yea false , Faith must needs be so : For we are not sure that ever we saw a Book , or Man , or Light , or heard man speak , or what he saith : And how can he believe Gods Word or the Popes , or Priests , that is not sure that ever he heard or saw them ? 6. They feign every sottish filthy Priest , to work more Miracles at his pleasure , by his transubstantiating , than Christ or his Apostles did . 7. They enable a drunken Priest to undoe Bakers and Vintners , by saying the words of Consecration Intentione Consecrandi over all their Bread and Wine : And then they have none left . 8. They feign Christ to have eaten his own Body by his Body , and either that the same Body did eat it self , or that he had two Bodies that did eat neither . 9. They feign that his whole Body did eat his broken Body , and that his Disciples did eat it , before it was broken ; and drank his shed Blood before it was shed . 10. When two General Councils C.P. the 5th . and Nice the 2d . tell us , that Christs body in Heaven now is not Flesh and Blood , and Paul saith 1 Cor. 15 , that Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , yet they maintain that Christ hath had these 1600 years a body of Flesh and Blood. 11. They feign abundance of Accidents without subject Substances , that are the Accidents ( Quantity , Quality , &c. ) of nothing . 12. They feign a sottish Priest to make his Maker day by day . 13. When Christ saith , He that eateth my Flesh , and drinketh my Blood , shall live for ever ; they feign the most wicked men to eat his Flesh and drink his Blood. 14. They feign Mice to eat God. 15. They feign every wicked man to eat his God , and digest part of him into his own Flesh and Blood , and cast out the other part into the Jakes . 16. They teach men to commit Idolatry , by worshiping Bread as God. 17. All this is enforced by Fire and Sword , against the Blood of Holy men . 18. All this is Novel Heresie , contrary to the Doctrine of the Universal Church , for a Thousand years after Christ and more . 19. It 's contrary to Paul's Quere , 1 Cor. 12. Are all workers of Miracles ? understood Negatively . 20. It 's feigned a sufficient ground to depose Princes , and destroy whole Lands . But these things , and specially the forged Miracles of the Transubstantiation , are more largely confuted in many Treatises . What hope of ending any Controversies with Papists , that agree not with us in the credit of Senses as Heathens do ? Can we bring any Controversie to a plainer issue , than to all Men's common Senses , about due Objects and due Mediums ? And is there any disputing where no principle is agreed on ? The Fortieth accused Point . That we ought to receive under both kinds , and that one alone is not sufficient . Ans . It concerneth them that deny this , either to keep men from Reading Gods Word , or to tell them it is false , and the Pope's is true that contradicteth it : What is a flat defyance of God or his Word , if this be not ? Christ saith , Math. 26.27 , 28. Drink ye all of it : For this is my Blood of the New-Testament , which is shed for many , for the remission of sins . And St. Paul saith , 1 Cor. 11.23 . I have received of the Lord that which I delivered to you : That the Lord Jesus , the Night in which he was betrayed , took Bread , &c. Vers . 25. After the same manner also he took the Cup , when he had Supped , saying , This Cup is the New-Testament in my blood : This do ye as oft as you drink it , in remembrance of me : For as often as ye eat this Bread , and drink this Cup , ye do shew the Lord's Death 'till he come : Wherefore whosoever shall eat this Bread , and drink this Cup of the Lord unworthily , shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord : But let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread , and drink of that Cup. These words do so plainly say , it is bread after the Consecration , and do so plainly require all to drink of the Cup , as well as to eat of the Bread , that the Infallible Clergy are fain to accuse the Light of Darkness , the Text of deceitful Obscurity , till the Pope and his Prelates have expounded it , by giving it the Lye : Just like the Knave in Ignoramus's Play , that Proclaimed the man to be Mad , from whom he intended to extort Money , that is , for binding and abusing him . What is it to proclaim Christ and Paul to be Fools , that could not speak Sense , if this be not ? But the Doctors have also contradictions to charge on Christ , even that else-where he saith , [ He that eateth his Flesh shall live for ever : ] Ans . 1. That is , He that trusteth in a Sacrificed Christ as the means of his Salvation , as bread is the means of natural Life : He that would not understand , cannot understand the plainest Words : But doth Christ say , that any man eateth his flesh , that drinketh not his blood ? Or that he shall have Life , that doth the one without the other ? 2. And seeing they take every Rogue that eateth their Wafer to eat Christs Flesh , do they not here falsly say that all such shall have Eternal Life : O happy ( miserable ) Church , that hath Eternal Life , how wicked soever , for eating the Wafer , and calling it Christs Flesh ! And all this , that Faith may not be thought to be meant by eating . 3. But seeing it must needs be eating by the Teeth , or by Flesh eating that is meant , they have found out a crafty literal way : Christ saith that he loveth and cherisheth his Church as his own Flesh , and we are Members of his body , of his flesh , and of his bones : And so they that Murdered a Million of the Albigenses , &c. and Massacred 40000 in France , and 200000 in Ireland , and Burnt them in England , Germany , the Low Countries , and Tormented and Killed them in Bohemia , and many other Lands , did learn the literal way of eating Christs Flesh . And who doubts but the Devil tells them that they shall thereby obtain everlasting Life ? But why then are they against drinking his blood , when actually they draw it out by streams ? Perhaps by Burning his Bones , ( as they did Buce●s , Phagius , Wickliffes , and 1000 more ; ) they think that their Teeth scape the trouble of gnawing them , and thus they feed on Christs body , flesh and bones : For their Masters beat Witches if they bring him not account at every Meeting , of some mischief that they have done . 3. And what but flat opposition to Christ , should move these men to forbid one half of his Sacrament , which he calls the New-Testament in his blood ? One would wonder what should be their Motive : It is no matter of Pleasure , Profit , or Honour : This very Deceiver had more wit than to pretend Antiquity for it , or any one ancient Doctor of the Church . They dare not deny ( save to Ignorants and Fools , ) that it is a Novelty contrary to unquestioned Consent and Practice of all Christs Church , for above a thousand years , or near at least . It is undenyably against Christs Institution and Command , against his Apostles Doctrine , and Scripture Practice ; against all the Judgment and Practice of the ancient Church , against the Nature and Integrity of the Sacrament , against the Concord of the Church , that will never Unite against all these , against the Sense and Comfort of Believers . What then doth over-rule so many men to Tear the Church , to Murder so many Bohemians as they did , &c. for such a thing as this is ? Reader I will tell thee all that I know : The Devil is in constant War against Christ and his Kingdom , and the Souls of men : As he thought he could have triumphed in making Job curse God to his Face ; so he would fain shew that he can make Christs own pretended Ministers oppose and despise the plainest of his Commands , and defie his Word and him to his Face . To this he gets by the baits of Worldly Wealth , Honour and Dominion , a sort of Fleshly Worldly men to be Bishops , whose very hearts are against the Laws of Christ : And puffing up these men by degrees , he tells them how they must be Great , and arrogate Power equal to Christs Apostles , and so domineer over the Souls of men ; and all this on pretence of honouring Christ : And having gotten a Generation of gross ignorant debauched Villains , into the Papal elevated Seat , and the Ruling Church Power , when some poor Woman once or twice shed some of the Wine , or a Priest chanced to spill it , their prophane Holiness decreed that they should drink the Wine no more ( save the Clergy , ) but should eat Christs Blood , which they said was in his Flesh , and a while they dipt the Wafer in Wine ; and then pretended Infallibility being their vain Glory , they must not change lest they should seem to be fallible , and should Repent ; for Repenting undoes Satans Kingdom . The One and Fortieth accused Point . That there is not in the Church a true and proper Sacrifice ; and that the Mass is not a Sacrifice . Ans . True and proper , if the words are intelligible , are put against false and equivocal or figurative . And what man can tell us which Sence of the word [ Sacrifice ] must be taken for the only proper Sence , when with Heathens and Christians the word is used in so many Sences , and there are so many sorts of Sacrifices ? This man would not tell you whether it be the Thing or the Name that he controverteth ; that would be to come into the Light. If it be the thing , we never doubted but divers things are and must be in the Church , which are called Sacrifices , some in Scripture , and some by Papists : And some things by them called Sacrifices , are in their Church which God is against . If it be the Name that is the question , we know that in a General Sence it may be given to many things of different Species , and equivocally yet to more ; but which Sence to call proper among so many , let quibling Grammarians tell him : We strive no further about Names , than tendeth to preserve the due Judgment of things . Sometime a Sacrifice signifieth a second thing offered to God by way of worship . Sometime more strictly , somewhat supposed highly to gratifie or please him , offered to expiate some Crime that displeaseth him , or by pleasing to procure some benefit from him . Among Heathens and Jews , there were various sorts of Sacrifices : Some Hilastical , some Eucharistical : Some of things Lifeless , and some of Living Creatures ; where strictly part was burnt and so offered to God , and part given to the Priest , and part eaten by the Offerers . We hold , 1. That Jesus Christ offered his Body on the Cross a Sacrifice to God for the expiation of Sin , as a thing pleasing to God , in a sence which no other Sacrifice ever ▪ was or is ; not that God delighted in his Blood , Pain or Death as such ; but as finis gratiâ , it was the most excellent means to demonstrate his Wisdom , Love , Justice , and Mercy , and save a sinful race of men , with the honour of his Law and Government . 2. We hold that Christ hath instituted his Sacrament , to be a visible Representation of this his Sacrifice , both for Commemoration and for actual Investiture and Collation of Christ to be our Saviour , and Head in Union , and of his Grace and Benefits , Pardon , Reconciliation , Adoption , Justification , Sanctification , and Title to Glory . And we know that the ancient Churches called this often a Sacrifice : Not in the same sence as Christ was our Sacrifice ; nor as the Mosaical Types were Sacrifices ; but a Representative Sacrifice , representing Christs own . But we are the shier to use the name Sacrifice , where Papists apply it to Idolatry . 3. We know that all Christians are bound to dedicate themselves to God , and even to lay down their Lives when he requireth it ; and bound to offer him penitent Confession , Praise , Thanksgiving , and to give Alms to the poor , and serve and honour him with all their Wealth and Power . And all these are called Sacrifices in Scripture , because they are sacred oblations , acceptable to God through the merits of Christs Sacrifice . Is not this man a Calumniator then , that faith we hold , [ that there is not in the Church a true and proper Sacrifice , ] unless he call none true and proper but what no man can offer to God. But what say we to the Sacrifice of the Mass ? We say , that for the Priest to pretend that after his words , Bread is turned into Christs Flesh in a Physical sence , and Wine into his Blood , and that this is our God , and that he sacrificeth this God to God , and eateth and drinketh him so sacrificed , and that all that so receive him have Eternal Life : This is a prophanation of Holy things , a deceiving of Souls , a blaspheming of Christ , and Idolatry against God. And all sacrificing in their Mass , that is more than a Representation of Christs own sacrificing himself , for Commemoration and Communication of the gifts of his Testament , and the expression of our Gratitude , and Devotedness to God by him , is their own prophane invention . How do they offer his broken body and blood shed , any otherwise than Representatively , unless they kill him , and eat him when he is Dead ? It was only a Representation of his own sacrificed Body and Blood , which he made at the Sacrament himself ; not then broken and shed , but to be broken , slain , and shed soon after , ( unless he had two bodies , one dead and one alive . ) The Sacrament indeed was called a Sacrifice by the ancient Churches , to signifie that it is not Christs body as now glorified in Heaven that is there Represented , but his body as once flesh and blood sacrificed on the Cross : And how can it be that , but by Representation , sacrificing it was killing it : Do they kill Christ a thousand thousand times over , yea , and kill his Gloryfied body ? He hath no existent Flesh and Blood in Heaven , speaking properly and formally ; but a Spiritual glorified body , that was Flesh and Blood on Earth : And doth every Priest turn Christs Spiritual glorified body into Flesh and Blood again ? O what a Mass of prophanation is their Mass . Tho Two and Fortieth accused Point . That Sacramental Vnction , is not to be used to the Sick. Ans . In those Hot-Countries , anointing their bodies was used as a great refreshment for Delight and Health . And Christ and his Apostles applyed it to the Miraculous use of Healing , as Christ did Clay and Spittle to a blind Man : And while that miraculous use continued , St. James bids those that are sick as a punishment for some sin , to send for the Elders of the Church , that they may pray for the pardon of his sin , and for his recovery , and anoint him with Oil , and if he have not sinned unto Death , ( that is , a Capital Crime , which God would have Magistrates punish with Death , and will do so himself , ) his Sin shall be forgiven , and he shall be healed . See now the Malice of the Prince of Darkness . He that tempteth men to cast out half the substance of the Lords Supper , meerly to shew what they can and will , and dare do against his Word , and tempteth men to forbid the very Scripture it self , yet to undoe , he will overdoe , and draw men to be wise and Righteous over much : Who would think these men are against the sufficiency of Scripture , that will turn its temporary occasional actions into perpetual Sacraments ? They make Conscience of washing Feet , of bearing Palms , of the Holy-Kiss ( but on the Pax ) and a Sacrament of anointing the sick : And why they make not a Sacrament of anointing the Blind with Clay and Spittle , of washing at Jordan or Siloam Pools , and of the said Kiss , and washing of Feet , of bearing Palms , of the Popes Riding on an Ass , &c. I know not . But for the Name of a Sacrament , ( bring first a Military , and then a Church Term , not used in Scripture ) we will not quarrel with them : They may laxly extend it to almost any Ceremony or sign Religiously used , rightly or wrongly . But , 1. They use that to the Dying , when they judge them past hope , which St. James spake of using for Recovery . 2. They use that as an ordinary thing , which was to be used only for miraculous Cures : and yet shew not that they have the Faith or gift of Miracles , nor cure any by it . 3. They force men to that feigned Sacrament now ceased with that gift , which was used to none but such as Voluntarily desired it . Why are they not con●●●●ed to use it themselves , but they must force all others to it as necessary ? What Man , Woman , or Child , do you read of in all the New-Testament , that was anointed in order to Death , save a Woman that meant no such thing , that anointed Christ in Health ? Where read you that Dragoons or Inquisitors inforced it , and draged naked the bodies through the Streets , and Buryed them in Dunghils , or where Dogs may eat them , if they refuse it ? Whose Sacraments can we think are these ? The Three and Fortieth accused Point . That no Interior Grace is given by Imposition of hands in Holy Orders : And that ordinary Vocation and Mission of Pastors , is not necessary in the Church . Ans . Contrarily the Reformed Catholicks hold , 1. That God often gave miraculous interior gifts to men , by the Imposition of the Apostles hands . 2. And if he please he may now bless Ordination to the increase of men's mental fitness for the Ministry ; and when he doth so , we know not . But we hold , 1. That men should be supposed by the Ordinances to be true Christians , and to have competent Ministerial Abilities before they Ordain them . 2. That now miraculous gifts cease , no man can tell when any other inward Grace is given by Imposition of hands in Ordination , than Relative , which is Obligation and Authority for the work of the Ministry . And Durandus and other of their School-men , say that their Indelible Character is no other . And the rest know not what to make of it . 3. If we read of Multitudes of Debauched , Ignorant , Apostatical Popes and Prelates , and many Ages of Church Barbarism , and Bruitishness , ( even in Baroni●s , Genebrard , and the fiercest Papists ; ) and if we see Priests after Ordination to be Ignorant , Drunkards , Fornicators , unable and unapt to Teach , haters of a Godly Life , we cannot tell what Grace it is that these men are said to receive in Ordination : Whatever it is , it will not keep them out of Hell , as it keeps them not from serving Satan . 4. We take an ordinary Calling and Mission to be ordinarily needful to the Church Ministry . This Calling consisteth , 1. In necessary Abilities , without which God sendeth none . 2. In willingness and Consent . 3. In the Ordination by Senior Pastors , where it may be had . 4. And to fix them in relation to particular Congregations , the mutual consent of themselves and the Flocks . 5. But we know Rules of meer Order are for the things ordered , and the Edification of the Church , for which all Church Power is given , and God Commandeth that all be done : And we know that God who will have Mercy and not Sacrifice , would not have us destroy the substance by pretence of a Ceremony . And that in several Cases , Ministers may be lawfully called without Imposition of hands , and Canonical Ordination . As , 1. In case men be cast into Infidel Countries , where no Bishops or Pastors can be had : As by Shipwrack , or Merchants Factory , or Embassadors , or when a Bishop with them dyeth by the way : They must not be without all publick Church Worship , for want of an Imposing Bishop . 2. In case Persecution drive all the Bishops out of reach . 3. In case the persecuted Bishops refuse to Ordain for fear of suffering . 4. In case the Bishops be Hereticks , or intollerable Usurpers and no true Bishops , wanting the Essentials of a Qualification and a Call. 5. In case the Bishops impose any false Oath , Subscription , Covenant , or Profession , or any other Sin , as the Condition without which they will not Ordain , ( which is the case of all the Papists Prelates ; ) their Ordination in these cases is not necessary . 6. We know that in such cases the Ministry faileth not , but there may be a true succession of Pastors , though regular Canonical Ordination be interrupted . For there is nothing necessary after Gods Law , which specifieth the Office by stated Institution , but only the determining who the Persons are that God would have in this Office : Which may be well known without Canonical Ordination , where that cannot lawfully be had . There are instances in the ancient Churches , that when some Elected to be Bishops , fled or hid themselves ; the Bishops Ordained them absent , by writing , without imposition of hands . 7. Yea , we know that if in any one Church or Nation , the succession were totally interrupted , for many years , God hath left means sufficient to restore it . 1. His Word describeth the Office , and giveth the Authority and obligation to the Person when determined of . 2. That Determination may be made , 1. By the due Qualification of the Person : 2. The inviting Necessities of the People and opportunity . 3. Mutual Consent ; and without these the Ordination and Mission of a Bishop is vain . 8. The Church of Rome more needeth this Doctrine than the Protestants : For it is notoriously certain , that regular Succession hath failed oft and long in the Papacy , and consequently in its Clergy . 1. There is no more notorious interruption than by the utter incapacity of the Unqualified : And such have been those that were Children or declared Sots , Beasts , Simonists , filthy Lechers , Hereticks , Infidels , Schismaticks , by General Council , and the most Papal Historians . Their Succession now is from Eugenius the 4th . deposed as an Heretick by a General Council . 2. When there have been two or three Popes above twenty times , no man knoweth which was the right . 3. Either Election is in the power of some in special , or not ; if not , the Turks , or Heathens , or Hereticks , may choose a Pope : If it be , Then who have the Power ? It s known that at first the Bishop of Rome was chosen by the People of one Congregation : After by the Clergy and people of the Christians of the City : After that by the Bishops of the Diocess : Sometimes by the Emperors : Or Arrian Kings ( with the Clergy and people : ) Sometimes by General Councils : Sometimes against General Councils , by an Armed Faction : And of late times by things called a Colledge of Cardinals . If all these were lawful , no one sort have the Electing Power : If any was unlawful , the Succession hath been interrupted . 4. Either the Ordination of a Superior is necessary , or not : If yea , then the Pope having no Superior , was never truly Ordained : If not , then a Presbyter may be Ordained without a Bishop . Rome is more concerned to answer these things than we . The Four and Fortieth accused Point . That Priests and other Religious persons who have Vowed their Chastity to God , may freely Marry notwithstanding their Vow . Ans . 1. Must none keep Vows but Priests and Religious People . 2. The known Doctrine of the Protestants about Oaths and Vows ( which you may see in Sanderson de Juramento , ) is , 1. That Antecedently it is unlawful to ensnare our selves by unneecssary Vows , of that which is out of our Power , or so mutable , that it may hereafter be made our Duty which now is not . 2. But having once Vowed , we must distinguish of the Imposing , the making of the Vow , and the Matter of it . And that , 1. Though it was by Parents , or others unlawfully imposed , 2. And by our selves , by temerity unlawfully made or sworn , 3. Yet if the Matter consideratis considerandis be necessary or lawful , the Vow must be kept : But if it be Sin that is Vowed , it must not be done . Because Man's Vows cannot abrogate or suspend Gods Laws . Can any of your Casuists deny this ? Therefore , if Boys or Girls Vow Chastity , and it prove thar they cannot keep it without sin , the Matter becometh to them unlawful , and they must break it : As for instance : 1. If they cannot keep it without apparent hurt to their Souls by Lust . 2. Or if the Heir of the Crown , or some great Estate , Vow it , and if he keep it , the Kingdom or Church is like to suffer by it . 3. If Parents or Prince countermand the Vow in Youth . But if they can keep it , and that keeping become not Sin by consequent accidents or changes , they ought to keep it ; though they must repent of their rash unlawful making it . Gods Law is perfect , and maketh Duty enough for us , and we should not foolishly make more as Law-givers to our selves , when we are conscious how far short we come of keeping Gods own Laws . The Five and Fortieth accused Point . That Fasting and abstinence from certain Meats , is not grounded on Holy Scripture , nor causeth any Spiritual good . Ans . Still deceitful Confusion : Protestants hold , 1. Fasting is a needful Duty to several Persons in several cases . As , 1. To take down the Flesh when it groweth too strong in Lust . 2. For the cure of many Diseases from fulness . 3. To exercise our Humiliation in times of publick Danger and Calamity , or of personal repentance for some great Sin , or under some affliction that calleth for great Humiliation . 2. They hold that Abstinence is needful in it's time and place , as Fasting is in it's : And that all Eating and Drinking is unlawful , which gratifieth the Appetite by Quantity or Quality against Men's health , and the just Rules by which we should judge what is healthful : Yea , that bare Eating and Drinking to please the Appetite , which doth not some way conduce to fit us for our Duty , is Sin. 3. We know that the same Meat and Drink for Quality and Quantity which is best for one , is hurtful and mortal to another : And we know that Fasting is as Physick , whether for Health , or for the Soul : and if we are fallen into the hands of such Physicians , as will tye all the Land and all the World to take the same Physick , and on the same days , to take a Purge or a Vomit every Wednesday , Friday , and Holy Evens , we shall obey them when we are a-weary of our Lives . I think our London Colledges would deride such prescribers . 4. And if any will tell us that we shall merit of God , and save our selves by forbearing the coursest sort of Flesh , and eating the more costly Fish , Junkets , Sweet-meats , and drinking Wine and strong-Drink , we abhor such Mock-Fasts , for God will not be mocked : But Hipocrites turn all Religion into a Mockery . I have heard those called strict precise Protestants , accused as being against abstinence and Fasting ; and upon enquiry I found that those of my acquaintance , eat and drink less all the year , than their accusers of my acquaintance do on their Mock-fasting days . To such their Diet would seem a strict Fast , even Calvin that macerated his body , with eating but a few bits once a day , is by some Papists called a sensual Glutton , ( though Massonius saith the contrary . ) The Six and Fortieth accused Point . That Jesus Christ descended not into Hell , nor delivered thence the Souls of the Fathers . Ans . 1. And do not these false Accusers know that both the Creed which we all profess , and the Articles of the Church of England , say expresly that Christ descended into Hell ? 2. And those ahat dislike the Translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into Hell , yet grant Christ went into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and that 's all the Scripture saith : So that all the doubt is but what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth ? Whether the Hell of Torment , or more Generally the unseen state of separate Souls ! If you mean the last , what Protestants deny it ? If you mean the first , what presumptuous cruelty is it , to believe that all the Souls of the Fathers were in Hell , till the Death of Christ ? Christ alleadging , I am the God of Abraham , of Isaac , and of Jacob , sure meant not , that God was their God , because they were in Hell : Was Lazarus in Hell when Abraham said , Now he is Comforted ? It was a Hell of Joy and Comfort : Were Samuel , Elisha , Job , Daniel , &c. in Hell ? Was Moses in Hell , that appeared in Glory on the Mount with Elias ? But what is it that the Infallible Church cannot make good , when they have once presumed to affirm it ? The Seven and Fortieth accused Point . That there is no Purgatory Fire , or other Prison , wherein sin may be satisfied for after this Life . Ans . 1. Which way this Church came to be so much acquainted with Hell , and Purgatory , and Prisons , and satisfying in them , in the other World , more than is revealed in the Word of God , we know not , unless some have told them that come thence , or from Heaven . But for our parts , we think Gods Word more trusty than Dead men whom we know not : God sendeth us to the Law , and to the Testimony : If they speak not according to these , it is because there is no Light in them , Isa . 8.20 . Abraham preferred Moses and the Prophets before one from the Dead . The prophane citation of Scripture by him for such a Purgatory-Prison , and Satisfaction , needs no answer save the perusal of the Texts . What mean these men by [ satisfying for Sin ? ] 1. If they mean that Satisfaction by the merits whereof God pardoneth sin without dishonour to his Justice , Government , or Law : ] Christ , and he only , hath thus fully satisfied for sin , already , and there remaineth no more Sacrifice for sin ; for by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . 2. But if by satisfying for sin , they mean that all must suffer all the punishment that their sin deserveth , then God forgiveth no sin at all : For to forgive the sin , is to forgive the punishment : And then they renounce the Office , Sacrifice and Blood of Christ , which are for the pardon of Sin : And they renounce Baptism and the Lords Supper that give and Seal it : And they cast away all hopes of Salvation , and damn all Mankind : For all Sin deserveth some degree of Damnation in Hell. But if the Pope can pardon , sure God doth pardon some : To deny pardon , is to deny all the Scripture , and all humane hope and mercy . 3. But if by [ satisfying for sin , ] they mean that God when he forgiveth through Christ the destructive everlasting Punishment , will yet require some corrective temporal punishment , with which he is said to be satisfied , in that he requireth no more , we confess de re , that such a thing there is in this World ; Death as Death , and Pain as Pain are such ; and the Curse on the Earth , and the loss of some degrees of Grace ; they are all corrective Penalties : And if any say that a lower degree of Glory for the loss of some degree of Grace is such ; or that the separation of the Soul from the Body till the Resurrection , hath some nature of Penalty ; we strive with no man about such things : But de nomine we justly here dislike the Word , [ Satisfying , ] because in common Sence , it soundeth as some Compensation , and somewhat that is of the same nature with Christs satisfaction ; and that is all that Justice requireth to purchase our pardon . And it encourageth the ill use of it by Papists , that make it meritorious . And de re we believe no such Purgatory , ( much less the Popes Power to deliver men out of it , for Masses or the like , ) because God tells us of no such thing . And the Primitive Churches never owned it : Augustine first seemed to doubt of it : But I find none before that ever held it , unless you will call Origens Opinion such , that thought the Devils and Damned should have a time of Deliverance , ( now called Heresie . ) As to 1 Cor. 3.13 , 15. Is there no fiery Tryall of mistaken Doctrine , and of the Erroneous in this Life ? As to Joh. 11.22 . What an Expositor is this : I know ( saith Martha , ) that whatever thou wilt ask of God , he will give it thee : Ergo , Lazarus was delivered out of Purgatory . As well he may say , All Saints shall have a Resurrection : Therefore all are in Purgatory . Or God denyeth Christ nothing : Therefore there is a Purgatory . So Acts 2.24 . Whom God hath raised up , having loosed the pains of Death , because it was not possible that he should be holden of it . Here he noteth two things . 1. That where Christ was , there was pains . Ans . As if Death it self were not a Penalty : It was Christs pains , or penal State of Death , that Peter mentioneth , and the man himself here confesseth that Christ had no pain in that place . 2. But he saith that it was not Christs , but others pain that is said to be loosed ; when the Text plainly saith , 1. That it was Christs pains of Death . 2. Loosed by his Resurrection . 3. Because it was impossible that he , ( not they ) should be held of it . So 1 Cor. 15.24 . Because there is no mention of Baptizing for the Dead , he feigneth a Purgatory meant . And Luk. 16.9 . That Receiving at Death into the everlasting Habitations , proveth a Purgatory : When yet they say that Purgatory is to none an everlasting Habitation : And Luk. 23.42 . Because the Thief would be remembred by Christ in his Kingdom , Souls may be holpen after death out of Purgatory : As if it was Purgatory that was the Paradise with Christ , where that Thief was to be that day : Is it not tedious but to read such prophanation of Gods Word ? The Eight and Fortieth accused Point . That it is not lawful to make or to have Images . Ans . This Lie hath conquered the blushing Passion . 1. Can such men believe that there are no Protestant Painters ? Are there none of their Shops in London , or Holland ? Do none but Papists make or sell Pictures ? Are not the Statues of Kings at the Exchange , the Stocks-Market , Chaering-Cross ? Are there no Images on our Coyn ? Nor our Banners ? Nor on the Escutcheons of the Nobility and Gentry of this and other Lands : Are there no Images at the Sign-posts in all London , nor in all the Cities , and Market-Towns in the Kingdom ? Nor in any of the Church-Windows ? But perhaps they will say , tho' we speak so universally ( to deceive the ignorant , ) yet we meant it of Images of Religious signification and use . Ans . And do not all the Lutherans keep them in their Churches ? Are they not continued in most Church-Windows in England ? Obj. But at least it's true of the Calvinists or Puritans ? Ans . 1. And will you therefore slander the rest ? 2. But we must not hastily believe any thing that false accusers say ? Have not the Holland Calvinists multitudes of Pictures ? Did you never see Beza and others , Icones virorum illustrium , nor Mr. Samuel Clerk's Lives with Images ? Nor the Puritans English Geneva Bible , with the Images of the Histories ? Nor the Dutch Quarry-Bricks for Chimneys , on which most of the History of the Bible is painted ? O! for Truth or Modesty . 2. But we confess that there are some Images Bawdy , some Superstitious , Idolatrous , or Blasphemous , which we leave to such as choose them , they being not for our use , ( of which after . ) The Nine and Fortieth accused Point . That it is not lawful to reverence Images , nor to give any honour to insensible things . Ans . Methinks you should sometime speak truth , if it were but before you are aware . 1. Protestants commonly hold , that they should give Honour to all Insensible things : They are all the work of God ; dishonouring or not honouring the Creature , or Work , is dishonouring or not honouring the Creator and Maker as such . The due praise and honour of a Building , a Book , &c. is necessary to the due praise and honour of the Author ! Do you think Protestants Condemn the 18th . Psalm , the 104th . Psalm , the 145 , and all the rest that Magnifie the works of God ? Is there any above a Beast , that doth not honour and praise Sun , Moon , Stars , Heaven and Earth , Sea and Land , as the works of God ? Yea we honour every Plant and Flower , every Vigetable and Mineral , knowing that God is wonderful and unsearchable in all . What is Physick , Astronomy , Geography , but the shell of knowing and honouring Gods Works , and God in them . 2. And the Image of Kings , of Holy Men , are purposely made and Printed by Protestants , in Love , Honour , and Reverence to the persons Living or Dead , whom they represent : You may see many Rooms adorned with the Images of the Fathers , and of late Divines : For their Relation they love with some sort of honour the Pictures of those whom you have burnt as Hereticks : See whether you find them not in John Fox his Acts and Monuments . 3. But we are warned oft enough by God , and by the mischievous effects of it in the Churches , against all Idolatrous and scandalous , and ensnaring respect and use of Images , which are either false Representations , or are used contrary to the second Commandment , to Corporal Idolatry though not mental , in such likeness to the Heathen use of their Demons Images and deified Heroes and Emperours , as seemeth to be but a change of the object Persons ; or may tempt others to unlawful usage of them : Especially the use being not commanded us of God , while it is dangerous . And we abhor the Papists Omission of the second Commandment , and turning the Tenth into two , lest the people should perceive the evil of such Imagery . No wonder that their Proselytes must be kept in Ignorance , and forbid the Scriptures in a known Tongue , without a special Licence , when they must not ordinarily read or hear all the Ten Commandments , even these Ten written by God himself in Stone , are too much for them to be trusted with ; and yet all the Mass of Ceremonies , and Ocean of Canon Laws , are not too much : And he that must be killed for not obeying these , must not know all Gods own Ten Commands ; yea many have been burnt for having his Word Translated . 4. And to pray before the Image of Saints , and then to say , we do not pray to them , but to those that they represent , is but to do what the Heathen Idolaters promised to do to their Demons : They usually said , We be not such Fools as to think Wood , and Stone , and Gold , and Images , to be God. But as the first Commandment forbids us to have any Gods but the true God ; so the second forbids us to seem to have any more , tho' our minds despise them , or by their way of Image-worship , to seem to be of their mind : For as a man that useth the common Words of an Oath , without any purpose to Swear , is a prophane Swearer with the Tongue , ( which the mind should better rule , ) tho' his mind Swear not ; so he that on his Knees in Religious Prayer , looketh on Images , as the mediate Object of his Worship , his act is bodily Idolatry , and his mind is guilty by not better ruling it . Where God affixeth the mention of his Jealousie , even to the Third and Fourth Generation , calling the bowers to Images , those that hate him ; it is needful to us to be jealous of our actions : For our God is a Consuming Fire . And we are n●t ignorant of the Doctrine of your St. Thomas , who saith that the Image is to be Worshipped , with the same sort of Worship as that which it representeth , and the Image of the Crucifix , with Latria , called Divine Worship . The Fiftieth accused Point . That no man hath seen God in any Form , and that therefore his Picture or Image cannot be made . Ans . 1. But what if it were Lawful to Paint God ? Is it Necessary ? Why may you not be contented to have a painted God your selves ? Must all be burnt and damned as Hereticks that are not of your mind ? Will you be jealous against those that bow not to a painted God , as God is jealous against those that do it ? God saith Thou shalt not bow down to them , nor worship them : Where saith he , Thou shalt bow down to them , and worship them ? Or bow towards them , and say , It is not to them ? 2. God saith , Thou shalt not make to thy self the likeness of any thing in Heaven or Earth , to bow down to them and worship them . Bowing down purposely towards them , and before them , is interpretatively bowing down to them , worshipping them . And God would not be so worshipped : Isa . 40.16 , 25. To whom will ye liken God ? Or what likeness will ye compare unto him ? To whom will ye liken me , or shall I be equal , saith the Holy one ? See Lev. 26.1 . Deut. 16.22 . Hab. 18.2 . The Molten Image is a Teacher of Lies . It is Blasphemy to make a Picture or Image of God , but what he maketh himself ; as if we said , God is like that Image or Creature . But this Deceiver tells us , how God appeared to Adam and others , in a humane or some certain shape . Ans . 1. And yet he hath oft and earnestly forbid making Images of him to worship . 2. Anthopomorphits , that take God to have parts like man , are Condemned as Hereticks by the Church of Rome it self . Every notifying sign of Gods attributes , is not called his Image ; and man is called his Image , for the Divine Impressions on his Soul , which cannot it self be seen and Pictured . If God appear by an Angel , and that Angel appear in humane shape , we are nevertheless forbidden to worship God pictured as a man. Sun , Moon , Stars , yea , every Creature notifieth God to us ; yet may we not paint him like these , or any other Creature . Did not Gods transcendency , and his express Word plainly and frequently reprove this , Popery had some small excuses . If they deny Christs and his Apostles Words , that no man hath seen God at any time , save his Son , they reproach him : To see his Works , is only to se● that which notifieth him , and not himself : Else every Pagan and Brute seeth God. We deny not but the Sun , and Fire , and a man may be pictured , and that God being partly notified to us by these , ( and every Creature ) may be said so far to appear in them ? And when did he appear so wonderfully as in Christ ▪ And yet it being not his Essence in it sell that we see in them , but his attributes is part ; an Image of a man , of the Sun , Moon , Stars , of a Horse , or a Dog , or a Toad , is not to be called an Image of God , else God may have as many Images as Creatures . The One and Fiftieth accused Point . That Blessing or signing with the sign of the Cross , is not founded in Holy Scripture . Ans . The man would not tell you whether he mean the Lawfulness of the Cross only , or also the necessity of using it . But what are his Proofs ? 1. Rev. 7.3 . Hurt not the Earth , nor the Trees , till we have sealed , ( we read signed , ) the Servants of our God in their foreheads . Is here any mention of Crossing or Blessing with the Cross ? An Angel in prophetical Vision , is bid to mark or seal the Servants of God , as those that are not to be destroyed , when God commissioneth other Angels to destroy the Persecutors : Therefore the Priest must sign all Christians with the Cross . And I would they did not infer as one did from Ezek. 9.4 , 5. [ And to the other he said , go ye after him through the City and smite ; let not your Eye spare , neither have ye pity , stay utterly Old and Young , and little Children and Women ; but come not near any man on whom is the mark , and begin at my Sanctuary . ] And thus whatever Plague or Death God bid Angels execute on his uncurable Enemies , Idolaters , and Persecutors , the Devil will teach men , that Priests and their Hang-men may execute on all that are not marked in the Forehead with a Cross ? But as long as Rome is so like to Babylon , they were better teach men a truer Exposition of the Revelations . Thus they can prove , that the Scripture is but like a Nose of Wax , by using it as if it were so . It was Idolatrous Persecuting Rome that was to be destroyed , and it was those that had Gods mark , and not the Beasts that were to be secured . And who is that Idolatrous persecuting Beast ? The next Text is Mark 10.16 . Christ put his hands on Children , and blessed them ▪ And would he make men believe , that we deny Christs blessing them or others ? Or that Pastors may bless the people in his Name ? Is here ever a word of signing with the Cross ? The other is Luke 24.50 . He led them out as far as Bethany , and he lift up his hands and blessed them . Therefore the Priest must Cross men in the Forehead : Reader , this is the fashion of these Men's confuting the Reformed Catholicks , and proving Popery , and using Scripture . And have they not reason to challenge the sole Interpreting of it ? Let but the Pope and his Priests expound it , and it shall all speak for them , and speak Blood and Fire against all that obey them not : But till then , they are it's Enemies , because it is the greatest Enemy to them . 2. But suppose Christs blessing had been Crossing : With what Face do they feign Protestants in England , to be against Crossing in the Forehead ? When the World knoweth that the Church of England is not only for it , but Ejecteth and Silenceth all Ministers that will Baptize the Child of the most Godly Christians without it . And they know that all the Churches called Lutheran use it . Are none of these Protestants ? 3. And though those called Non-Conformists , are not for the using of it as a dedicating Symbol of Christianity in Baptismal Covenanting , to bind the Covenanter to that Confession and holy warfare which is the promised duty of the Covenant , nor for denying Christendom to those that refuse this use of the Cross , ( out of a fear lest this Covenanting use make it a human Sacrament added to Baptism ; ) yet I meet with few of them that Condemn the ancient Christians , that lived among Heathens , ( who scorned them as worshiping a Crucified God , ) for their seasonable Crossing themselves in those Heathens sight , meerly to shew that they were not ashamed of such a Crucified Saviour ; ( not thinking what Papists would bring it to at last . ) The Two and Fiftieth accused Point . That the publick Service of the Church , ought not to be said , but in a Language that all the People may understand . Ans . The Reformed Catholicks indeed hold this , with these exceptions : 1. That by All be meant the Ordinary Congregation ; not meaning that if a French-man , or a Dutch-man , come in among them , they must needs speak to him apart in his own Tongue . 2. That if any Rustick , Illiterate , or Novices , understand not many words in the Translation of the Bible , or some apt words of the Minister , we must not therefore change the Translation , nor forbear those apt words that are suited to the more Intelligent ; but help to amend the understanding of the Ignorant . But that in Publick and Private , the Congregation should understand what they hear as the Word of God , and what is said in Confession , Prayer and Praise to God , this we hold as a matter of grand importance . 1. Because it 's purposely , plainly , and copiously decided so by the Holy Ghost , in the Apostle Paul , 1 Cor 14. Do but read the Chapter and judge . 2. Because Christ always Preached to the people in a known Tongue . 3. He prayed , Joh 17. in a known Tongue , and taught them so to pray . 4. The Apostles where ever they came , Preached and Prayed in a known Tongue . 5. They wrote the Gospels , the Acts , and all their Epistles , to whole Churches , in the Tongue most commonly known to the Reader , and so to be read to , or by all . 6. It was their standing Rule ; Let all be done to Edification . 7. Their Preaching and writing was all for Teaching : And it is no Teaching to speak to men in a strange Language , ( unless we be teaching them to understand it . ) 8. Praying is the expressing of known desires to God : It 's no Prayer that expresseth no Desire , and Ignoti nulla Cupido : There is no Desire , save sensitive Appetite , that supposeth not Knowledge that the thing is good and needful . The words of a Parrot are not a Prayer . And confession of Sin is the act of a penitent Soul , and it is no Repentance or Confession that is but words of they know not what : It 's no penitent Confession to hear or speak words , not understood what Sin they signifie . And to give God thanks , implyeth that we understand what Mercies or benefits the words express . And to praise God is understandingly to magnifie his perfections or Works . So that words without understanding them , are no more to be called Prayer , Praise , Confession , Thanksgiving , than the singing of a Bird is , or the Crowing of a Cock. 9. No reasonable man would be thus served or conversed with : A Parent indeed can understand an Abba , or a look from an Infant ; but it is on supposition , that the Infant himself perceiveth what he would have : And if it be not by intellectual but sensitive perception , it is no more a Petition to his Father , than a Dogs waiting for Food , tho' the person deserves more pity . So God understandeth the meaning of Spiritual Groans , in one that wants words for large expression : But that supposeth that it is true inward desires after him which those Groans signifie . But publick worship requireth a conjunction of Soul and Service , and therefore a conjunct understanding : Else there is no true Union and Communion in the worship . For one sound of words with discord of desires , is no Christian Union and Communion . It must be supposed that either the Hearers are not praying at all , or else that every one is secretly praying after his own thoughts for various things , without any Concord . What melody would it be for all the Church to sing in as many Tunes as persons ? What King or Judge will take it for a Petition , for a man to talk-gibberish to him , or say he knoweth not what ? 10. Even Papists deride Quakers , for meeting to say nothing : And what difference is there , when they hear and say nothing understood , saving that the Voice maketh it a more pompous Mockery , than the Quakers Silence ? O! who would have thought that the primitive manner of publick worship , should ever have degenerated into such a prophane abuse of God and man , against plain Scripture , universal practice , and humane Reason ? And this as a part of a grand design to kill the Life of all true Religion ▪ and delude Souls with the dead Carkass of mortified Formalities , and Ceremonies ; and that men should think that Souls are saved as Wizards do pretend , to do Cures by Charms of words not understood ; they serve God with empty shells , when they have cast away the Kernels : Like the silly Samaritan ▪ Woman , that lookt for a Christ to come to tell them , whether in this Mountain or at Jerusalem men ought to worship , little knowing what it was to worship God as a Spirit , in Spirit and Truth , when it should be neither at that Mountain , or at Jerusalem . But hath this man no Scripture , ( against Scripture ? ) Yes , Luk. 1.8 . [ The people were praying without , while the Priest was offering Incense within . ] Therefore the publick Worship may be performed , so as the people understand not : That , 1. The Priests action only out of their sight is the publick worship , and the peoples praying is not so . 2. The offering Incense , is Praying ; or because the people are not to do the Priests Office in Incense and Sacrificing , therefore Ministers must pray and praise God alone , without the people , and all this publick worship . 3. If the Levitical , Sacrifices were offered by the Priest alone , Christs Gospel worship must be performed by the Priest alone , the people not knowing what he saith : And the precepts and examples of the New-Testament , must all be reduced to the Levitical Order of Incense and Sacrificing . 4. And is he sure that all the people in the outer Court , prayed they knew not what , or in an unknown Tongue ? What use is Scripture of to these men ? His next is , Levit. 16.17 . None was to go in with the Priest to make attonement for the Congregation , &c. Ans . You see that these men are Judaizers , and set up the Levitical Law for the Churches Rule of Service , as if Christ had not changed the Law. But our Question is not now , Whether their Priest have any solitary attonement to make for the Congregation ; but whether Christ hath not instituted such publick worship , in which Ministers and people must understandingly joyn ? Doth their Priest celebrate their Mass alone , out of the peoples sight or hearing , in a Sanctuary while they are in the outer Court ? Do not their people assemble to their Mass ? Will they stand to it , that their Church renounceth all worship of God in Holy Assemblies , save by the Priest alone ? And is this the Holy Catholick Church ? And the man here professedly calls the Priests solitary action , the publick Service , which is for the people , and not by them , and therefore they need not understand ; and all the peoples Prayers are private and should be understood ; so that ( the Mystery opened , ) either the Priest is all the Church , or else they have no publick Church Service , if they must meet , that every one may have a secret Prayer of his own , and may only see the Priests Service called publick . And by this he pretends that he answereth Paul , 1 Cor. 14. Adding most shamelesly , 1. That it seemeth there by the Text , that the common Service of the Church , was not then in a Tongue commonly understood . 2. Because there was one to supply the place of the Ideots , to say Amen , where he saith , that the Geneva-men , most deceitfully and maliciously Translated , [ He that is an Ideot , how shall he say Amen ? ] And raileth at them for putting [ So be it . ] O! what is man , and how incredible is the pretended infallible Clergy , that can expect that all men trust their Souls on such palpable deceit ! When St. Paul spent a great part of the Chapter to disswade those that by Inspiration , could speak strange Languages , that they should not use them in the Church , as being unedifying , or at least not without an Interpreter ; this man gathers , that the common Service was in an unknown Tongue ? As if this disswaded use of some Prophets gift , were the common Service . 2. And when he disswadeth them from Praying in an unknown Tongue , or giving thanks in it , saying , else how can he that occupieth the Room of the unlearned say Amen , this man feigneth , that yet they were to give thanks in an unknown Tongue , and one was to supply the place of the Ideot or unlearned , in saying Amen , ( See vers . 23. ) Paul would have all say Amen , this man says one was to do it for them : Paul argueth that therefore they must speak to the understanding of the unlearned : This man turneth his own words against him : Doth his Supplier of the Ideots place himself , understand or not ? If not , Paul saith , How can he say Amen ? If he do , how doth he supply the place of the Ideots , that are supposed should say Amen , and cannot ? For the sake of this Chapter and Instance , I shall never think any words so plain , that Papists cannot turn against their most evident sense . But what is the Man's pretence for this erroneous Confidence ? Why , the Vulgar Latine Translateth it , Qui supplet locum , instead of Qui implet locum : And that Latin Translator by supplet meant the same as implet , possidet vel tenet : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well known to signifie to fill up : Their own Expositors are many of them for the Sence which this Doctor chargeth as deceitfully and maliciously given : Cornelius a Lapide saith that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Denuo implere , vel simul & Communiter omnes implere , to fill again , or all together , or in common to fill : It is not Qui supplet vicem indocti , but Qui locum occupat inter in ▪ doctos , or Idiotae locum tenet . And so it is expounded by the ancients , Chrysostom , Occumenius , Theophysact . And are not these Roman Priests notoriously Perjured , that all Swear to expound the Scripture , according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers , when as ( besides that the Fathers have but few of them written Commentaries on the Scriptures , there are very few of them that unanimously agree , of the Sence of the one half of the Scripture Texts , but either say nothing of them , or differ : And not only in this , but in most points named by this Doctors Touchstone , he and others go flat against them ? And what meaneth the man to rail at them , that say So be it , instead of Amen ? Is it not a true Translation ? But he will prove that it should not be Translated , and consequently that Servict may be said in an unknown Tongue , for Amen is not Greek but Hebrew . Ans . 1 . Who can stand before these Arguments , if they be but backt with Guns and Swords , or Smithfield Fires , which are too hot for any Answer save Patience . He may also prove it from Christs Words on the Cross , Eloi Eloi Lamasabacthani : For Christ was now the most publick Priest , and was offering the most publick Service by his Sacrifice : Ergo , the publick Service should be in an unknown Tongue : And it may be , they may find some other untranslated word , that shall confute not only all the Bible , but all the Septuagint and Vulgar Latine Translations . But seeing these Men's Arguments are too hot for me to answer , as they might know that the Church of England refuseth not AMEN , so neither will I , ( though as I can prove , that the Corinthian Church were Hebrews and Gentiles mixt , and that Amen was understood by both ; so Protestants use it as a word understood . ) From the Serpents Seed , and his deceiving subtil Lies : From Cain and his Successours , and the malignant and Blood-thirsty Enemies of Abels faithful acceptable worship ; from such a worldly and fleshly Sacred Generation as take gain for Godliness , and make their worldly carnal interest the Standard of their Religion , and their proud Domination to pass for the Kingdom of Christ : From an Vsurping Vice-Christ , whose ambition is so boundless , as to extend to the Prophetical , Priestly and Kingly Headship , over all the Earth , even at the Antipodes ; and to that which is proper to God himself , and our Redeemer : From a Leprous Sect , which Condemneth the far greatest part of all Christs Church on Earth , and separateth from them , and calleth it self , the whole and only Church : From that Church that decreeth Destruction , to all that renounce not all humane Sense , by believing that Bread is not Bread , nor that Wine is Wine , but Christs very Flesh and Blood , who now hath properly no Flesh and Blood , but a Spiritual Body ; and that decreeth the Excommunication , Deposition , and Damnation , of all Princes that will not exterminate all such ; and absolveth their Subjects from their Oaths of Allegiance : From that Beast whose Mark is PER Perjury , Perfidiousness , and Persecution , and that think they do God acceptable Service , by killing his Servants , or tormenting them ; and that Religion which feedeth on Christs Flesh , by Sacrificing those that he calleth his Flesh and Bones , Ephes . 5 . From the infernal Dragon , the Father of Lies , Malice , and Murder , and all his Ministers and Kingdom of Darkness : GOOD LORD make haste to deliver thy Flock ; and confirm their Faith , Hope , Patience , and their Joyful desire , of the great , true , final , Glorious Deliverance , AMEN . AMEN , AMEN . FINIS . This Book was delivered by Mr. Baxter himself to the Bookseller , and not being seen by us the Authours of the Epistle to the Reader , till the Sheets were printed , these ERRATA's must be corrected . PAge 76. line 24. read after God through him . Page 81. l. 14. read Converted for Convicted . Page 94. l. 24. read converted for convicted . Page 96. l. 21. read they do hold , for do they hold . Page 97. l. 1. read sinless for senceless . Page 116. l. 9. read intuition for intention . Page 119. l. 17. read Reneus for Romans . Page 149. l. 4. r. Ordainers for Ordinances . Page 150. l. 15 , 16. r. preference for pretence . Page 152. l. 2● . r. Councils for Council . Page 162. l. 10. r. there is mention . Page 165. l. 3. r. Vegetable . Page 166. l. 27 , 28. r. professed for promised . Books Printed for John Salusbury at the Sun over against the Royal Exchange in Cornhill . AN end of Doctrinal Controversies , which have lately troubled the Churches , by Reconciling Explication without much disputing : by Richard Baxter . The Certainty of the World of Spirits , fully evinced by unquestionable Histories of Apparitions and Witchcrafts , proving the Immortality of Souls . By Richard Baxter .. The Harmony of the Divine Attributes in the Contrivance and Accomplishment of Mans Redemption by our Lord Jesus Christ , &c. By VVilliam Bates , D.D. The Duty and Blessing of a Tender Conscience , plainly stated , and earnestly recommended to all that regard Acceptance with God. By T. Cruso . Two Sermons , opening the Nature of Participation with , and demonstrating the Necessity of Purification by Christ . By the same Author . Five Sermons on various Occasions : by the same Authour . The Mirror of Divine Love Unvailed : In a Paraphrase of the high and mysterious Song of Solomon . Tho Countreys Concurrence with the London United Ministers . By S. Chandler . A Summary or Abridgement of the whole Bible , whereby Children , and the Younger sort , may learn the Contents of it in a very short time , and give an Account of the principal passages of it . A New Examination of the Accidence and Grammer . A New Discourse on the Marriage of Isaac and Rebecka . 12o. The Suffering Christian . 12o. Nostradamus's Prophesies . THE CONTENTS . 1 OF the Rule of Faith p. 1 2 Of the Judge of Controversies in matters of Faith p. 6 3 Of the Scriptures difficulty p. 8 4 Of Traditions p. 19 5 Of the private Spirit p. ●9 6 If St. Peters Faith failed p. ●4 7 If the Church can err p. 39 8 Of the Churches Infallibility p. 50 9 Of her Vniversality p. 56 10 Of her Vnity p. 58 11 Of St. Peters Headship p. 60 12 Of a secular Princes Headship p. 63 13 Of Antichrist p. 67 14 Whether none but God can forgive Sin● p. 7● 15 Whether we ought to confess to none but to God p. 7● 16 Of Pardons p. 7● 17 Whether the Actions and Passions of 〈◊〉 Saints are profitable to us p. 7● 18 Of works of Supererogation p. 18 19 Of Free-will p. 82 20 Of keeping the Commandments p. 89 21 Of Faith and good works p. 99 22 Whether good works are meritorious p. 96 23 Whether Faith once had cannot be lost , p. 97 24 Of Gods inevitable decree , who shall be damned and who shall be saved p. 99 25 Whether we ought to assure our selves of our salvation . p. 103 26 Whether every one hath his Angel-keeper p. 107 27 Whether Angels pray not for us p. 108 28 Whether me may not pray to them p. 110 29 Whether they can help us or no p. 113 30 Of Saints Apparitions p. 114 31 Whether they know what passeth on earth p. 117 32 Whether they pray not for us ib. 33 Whether we may alledge their Merits in favour of our selves p. 118 34 Whether we may not pray to them p. 121 35 Of the Relicts of Saints p. 122 36 Of hallowing of Creatures p. 123 37 Of the Necessity of Baptism p. 126 38 Of Confirmation p. 128 39 Of the last Supper p. 130 40 Of r●●●ivers under one kind p. 136 41 Of the Sacrifice of the Mass p. 14● 42 Of Extream Vnction p. 14● 43 Of Holy Orders p. 148 44 Of Religious Vows p. 15● 45 Of fasting and abstinence from meats p. 155 46 Of Limbus Patrum p. 157 47 Of Purgatory p. 158 48 Of making Images p. 162 49 Of worshipping Images p. 164 50 Of making the Picture of God p. 168 51 Of blessing with the sign of the Cross p. 170 52 Of service in an unknown Tongue p. 173 THere will in due time be published a large Account of Mr. Baxters Life , mostly written by himself . 
A34966	----	Dr. Stillingfleets principles giving an account of the faith of Protestants / considered by N.O. Cressy, Serenus, 1605-1674. 1671 Approx. 154 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 59 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A34966 Wing C6892 ESTC R31310 11887004 ocm 11887004 50386 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A34966) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 50386) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1000:4) Dr. Stillingfleets principles giving an account of the faith of Protestants / considered by N.O. Cressy, Serenus, 1605-1674. [12], 100, [5] p. Printed at Paris by the widow of Antonie Christian and Charles Guillery, [Paris] : MDCLXXI [1671] Errata begins on p. 100 and continues on p. [5] at end. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. Protestantism -- Controversial literature. 2003-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-09 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2003-09 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion D R STILLINGFLEETS PRINCIPLES , Giving an Account of the FAITH OF PROTESTANTS , CONSIDERED BY N. O. MATTH . XVIII . 17. Si Ecclesiam non audierit , sit tibi sicut Ethnicus & Publicanus . PRINTED AT PARIS , By the Widow of Antonie Christian , and Charles Guillery . M. DC . LXXI . PERMISSV SVPERIORVM . A PREFACE TO the Reader . DOctor Stilling fleet hauing lately published a Book entitled , A Discourse concerning the Idolatry practised in the Church of Rome , &c. ( being a Rejoynder to a reply of an vnknown Catholick Gentleman engaged in some former Controuersy with him ) at the end of the Same Book hath annexed certain Principles , drawn up , as he saith , to giue an Account of the Protestant-Faith . Now as touching the main Book , it would be inciuility and injustice in any other to inuade the Right of his worthy Aduersary by , vntertaking an Answer thereto . To his Aduersaries Answer therefore , as the times permitt , and to Gods mercy I leaue him : if perhaps he may repent , and endeavour some satisfaction 1. For his accusing the whole Catholick Church of God , both Western and Eastern ( for the same Practise as to Seuerall of his Idolatries are in both ) for so many Ages before Luthers time of Idolatry , and this Idolatry as gross as that of Heathens : Which surely must Vn-church this Great Body , and quite divorce this Adulteress from Christ ( for we cannot but think but the Doctor will maintain the Teaching so manifold an Idolatry in this Church to be Fundamentall Errour ) 2. For his representing the Highest Deuotions practised from all Antiquity in the same Church , Mysticall Theology , Contemplation , heauenly Inspirations , all those Supernaturall Favours and familiar Communications of the Diuine Majesty to purer soules receiued in Prayer , and continued still in his Church ( as also Miracles are , and so attested in her Histories ) but vnknown indeed to strangers , and foolishness to Greeks , his representing all these I say , as ridiculous Fanaticisms , and impostures : though he knowes that Catholicks account themselues obliged to submitt all these things to the judgment of Superiours : a Duty vnknown to Fanaticks . And what may we expect next from such ( who are to many ) as make ill use of such Books as his , but that the frequent Allocutions of Gods Holy Spirit mentioned in Scripture , the Visions , Reuelations Extasies and Spirituall Vnions of the Saints there , our Lords , Ego in eis , & tu in me , ut sint consummati in unum ; and S. Pauls , Viuo , non ego , sed in me Christus , will shortly become matter of Drollery and Bouffonry ? 3. For his making so many of Gods glorious Saints in Heauen [ quorum causam discernat Deus ] the subject of his scorn and derision . By all which he has fitted his Book for the sport and recreation of the Atheist and Debauched ; from whose applause , with the regret and horrour mean while of all piously disposed , he may receive his reward . The Reuisall of these , not very gratefull , Subjects of his Book , therefore I leaue to the worthy Gentleman pre-engaged in these Disputes . But for the now mentioned Principles separately adjoyned at the end , as euery Catholick has an equall Right to apply himself to the examining of them ; so seeing that from these it is that such bad fruits , of forsaking first , and then censuring and condemning their Mother the Church , doe grow , it may , with Gods blessing , proue a seruice not altogether vnbeneficiall , to discouer their weakness : especially since by such a discouery his whole preceding Book will be demonstrated vnconcluding against Gods Church . And this is here the rather , and with greater confidence vndertaken , because , since it is Impiety to deny in generall that true Christian Faith hath a certain , vnmoueable Foundation ; in case therefore it shall appear that the Foundation here layd by the Doctor is but a meer trembling Quiksand on which a Christian cannot without a dreadfull danger to his soule build his Faith , namely , An Errability in the Guides of Gods Church , and ( Inerrability in all necessary Doctrins contained in Scripture by Him attributed indefinitely to all sober Christians , who without any necessary consulting or depending on such Teachers as haue been instituted by God shall vse their sincere endeauours to find out such Truths ] this Foundation , I say ( not Scripture , but each priuate mans sense of Scripture ) being ruined , it will vnauoydably follow , That the only certain way not to be misled , will be the submitting our Internall Assent and Belief to Church-authority which those who haue dissented from , and refused to stand to before Luthers time haue been always marked with the name of Hereticks . Where by Church-authority , I mean in generall that Superior and more comprehensiue Body of the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy ; which in any dissent and division of the Clergy , according to the Church Canons ought to be obeyed ; and which hath hitherto in her supremest and most generally accepted Councills in all Ages from the Beginning required such Submission vnder penalty of Anathema , and justly assumed to her self the Title of the onely authenticall Interpreter of Scripture , and authoritatiue Teacher of Diuine Verities . A Submission this is , which no particular Church diuided from this more Vniuersall can with the least pretence of reason challenge from her Subjects , since she her self ( and particularly the Church of England ) refused the same to all the Authority extant in the world when she separated her self . And this being obserued by M r. Chillingworth ( a schollar , herein , of the Socinians ) and by many other Diuines of late vpon whom hls Book hath had too must influence , they accordingly are forced to disclaime that Submission which the Church of England formerly had challenged in her Canons , and seuerely , euen with Ecclesiasticall death , punished the refusers vntill they should repent ( not their Externall Disobedience or Contradiction , but ) their wicked Errour . The 39. Articles being declared in the same 5 , Canon to haue been by this Church agreed vpon for the auoyding diuersities of Opinions , and the establishing of Consent touching true Religion . Now that these later Divines do decline such Submission , I need goe no further then to Doctor Stillingfleets Rationall Account for proof , where the Lord Primat of Ireland is cited thus , The Church of England doth not not define any of these Questions ( speaking of the 39. Articles ) as necessary to be belieued , but only binds her sonnes for Peace sake not to oppose them . And again , We do not suffer any man to reject the 39. Articles of the Church of England at his pleasure yet neither do we oblige any man to belieue them , but only not to contradict them . Thus they speake of late , and thus M r. Chilling worth hath cleared the way before them , in abridging thus the just Authority of the Primitiue Councills , The Fathers of the Church ( saith he ) in after times might haue just cause to declare their judgment touching the sense of some generall Articles of the Creed . But to oblige others to receiue her Declarations under pain of damnation ( or Anathema ) what warrant they had I know not . He that can shew , either that the Church of all Ages was to haue this Authority ; or that it continued in the Church for some Ages , and then expired ; he that can shew either of these things , let him : for my part I cannot . Yet I willingly confess the Iudgment of a Councill though not infallible yet so far Directiue and obliging , that without apparent reason to the contrary it may be sin to reject it , at least not to afford it an outward submission for Publick Peace sake . Now by this way our late English Diuines seem to haue brought the Authority of their Church into a great disreputation and wayning condition , and to haue excused , yea justified all Sects which haue , or shall separate from her . For indeed what fault can it be to forsake the Doctrine of a Church , whose Teaching none is bound to belieue or obey out of conscience ? and which quietly suffers , yea liberally rewards her sons , while they thus disparage her ? These Principles therefore layd by the Doctor , which , by aduancing the Clearness of the Rule so as to inferr the vselesness of a Guide , do seem to supplant what soeuer Authority of any Church , are here weighed in the following Considerations . The great importance of which Subject requiring Expressions serious , modest , and euery way vnlike those made vse of by the Doctor in his Book , such haue been studiously endeauoured here , without the least resentment of seuerall vnciuill and vnmerited Aspersions which in the sayd Book the Doctor hath cast vpon seuerall among vs : and the more moderate any haue bene the more immoderately haue they bene traduced . God Almighty inspire into all our hearts a sincere loue of Peace and Truth . Amen . D r. STILLINGFLEETS PRINCIPLES . Giving an Account of the Faith of Protestants , CONSIDERED . 1. THe Principles , &c. which Doctor Stilling fleet , has thought expedient to expose at the end of his Book , to render an Account of the Protestants Faith ; are sett down in three ranks . The first consists of Six Principles , agreed on both sides . The second contains Thirty Propositions for enquiring into the particular ways which God hath made choyce of for revealing his will to mankind : of which Propositions some are also Principles , partly agreed on , and partly not ; and some are Deductions , from them : But we , following the generall Title , will call them all , Principles . In the third rank , six Corollaries or Inferences are deduced from the fore-going Propositions , to the advantage of the cause of Protestants against Catholicks . To all which , we here offer the following Considerations . I. PRINCIPLES . Agreed on all sides . 1. That there is a God , from whom Man and all other Creatures had their beginning . 2. That the Notion of God doth imply , that he is a Being absolutely perfect ; and therefore Iustice , Goodness , Wisdom and Truth , must be in him in the highest perfection . 3. That Man receaving his Being from God , is thereby bound to obey his Will , and consequently is liable to punishment , in case of disobedience . 4. That in order to Mans obeying the will of God , it is necessary that he know what it is ; for which some manifestation of the Will of God is necessary : both that Man may know what he hath to do , and that God may justly punish him , if he do it not . 5. What ever God reveals to Man , is infallibly true , and being intended for the Rule of Mans obedience , may be certainly known to be his Will. 6. God cannot act contrary to those essentiall Attributes of Iustice , Wisdom , Goodnesse and Truth in any way which he makes choyce of , to make known his Will unto Man by . It were impiety to question any of these Principles , which are , or ought to be presupposed not only to the Christian , but all manner of Religions . We will therefore proceed to the second Rank , consisting of 30. Propositions ; which we will sett down singly and separatly , annexing to each a respective Examination , or Consideration . II. An Enquiry into the particular ways which God hath made choyce of for the revealing his Will to Mankind . I. PRINCIPLE . 1. An entire obedience to the will of God , being agreed to be the condition of mans happinesse ; no other way of Revelation is in it self necessary to that end , then such whereby Man may know what the will of God is . This is granted . II. PRINCIPLE . 2. Man being fram'd a rationall creature , capable of reflecting vpon himself , may antecedently to any externall Revelation , certainly know the Being of God , and his dependence vpon him , and those things which are naturally pleasing to him ; else there could be no such thing as a law of Nature , or any Principles of Natural Religion . This may be granted . III. PRINCIPLE . 3. All Supernaturall and externall Revelation , must suppose the truth of Naturall Religion ; for vnlesse we be antecedently certain that there is a God , and that we are capable of knowing him , it is impossible to be certain that God hath revealed his will to vs by any supernaturall means . Let this be granted . IV. PRINCIPLE . 4. Nothing ought to be admitted for Divine Revelation , which ouerthrows the certainty of those Principles which must be antecedently supposed to all Divine Revelation : For that were to ouerthrow the means whereby we are to judge concerning the truth of any Divine Revelation . Let this also be granted . V. PRINCIPLE . 5. There can be no other means imagined , whereby we are to judg of the truth of Divine Revelation , but a Faculty in vs of discerning truth and falshood in matters proposed to our belief ; which if we do not exercise in judging the truth of Divine Reuelation , we must be imposed vpon by euery thing which pretends to be soe . Here , if the Doctor means , That every Christian hath a faculty in him , which , as to all Revelations what soeuer proposed to him , can discern the True and Divine , from others that are not so ; and when a Revelation , certainly Divine , is capable of several senses , can discern the true sense from the false , all this exclusively to , and independently on , the Instruction of Church-authority : This Proposition is not true . For then none will need ( as experience shews they do ) to repayre to any other Teacher to instruct him , when a dubious Revelation , or when the sense of any Divine Revelation , is controuersed , which is the true revelation or which the sense of it . It is abundantly sufficient , that eyther Wee our selues , or some others appointed by our Lord to guide vs , and more easily discouerable by vs , have a Faculty , ayded by the Divine assistance , to discern Truth and Falshood in those Revelations proposed , wherein wee our selues cannot ; that so particular Christians in their following these Guides , may not be imposed vpon by every thing which pretends to be Divine Revelation . VI. PRINCIPLE . 6. The pretence of Infallibility in any person of Society of men , must be judged in the same way , that the truth of a Divine Revelation is ; for that infallibility being challenged by vertue of a supernaturall assistance , and for that end to assure men what the will of God is , the same means must be vsed for the tryall of that , as for any other supernaturall way of Gods making known his will to men . Here , if the Doctor means , That by the same way or means as we come to know the truth of other Divine Revelations , we may come to know the truth also of this , viz : the Infallibility in Necessaries of a Society , or Church ; I consent to it . But not to this , That by all or only the same ways or means by which we may come to know one Divine Revelation , we may , or must come to know any other , or this , of Church-Infallibility . For some Divine Revelation may come first to our knowledg by Tradition ; another first by Scripture ; another by the Church . see below , Consid. on the 17. Principle . VII . PRINCIPLE . 7. It being in the power of God to make choyce of severall ways of revealing his Will to vs , we ought not to dispute from the Attributes of God the necessity of one particular way to the Exclusion of all others , but we ought to enquire what way God himself hath chosen : and whatever he hath done , we are sure cannot be repugnant to Infinit Iustice , Wisdom , Goodness , and Truth . This is granted . VIII . PRINCIPLE . 8. Whatever way is capable of certainly conveying the Will of God to vs , may be made choyce of by him for the means of making known his will in order to the happiness of mankind ; so that no Argument can be sufficient a priori to prove , that God cannot choose any particular way to reveal his mind by , but such which evidently prooues the insufficiency of that means for conueying the Will of God to vs. This likewise is granted . IX . PRINCIPLE . 9. There are severall ways conceaveable by vs , how God may make known his Will to vs ; eyther by immediate voyce from Heaven , or inward Inspiration to every particular person , or inspiring some to speak personnally to others , or assisting them with an infallible spirit in writing such Books , which shall contain the Will of God for the benefit of distant persons and future Ages . To these seuerall ways by which God reveals his Will , the Doctor might have added this one more , as a Truth , And in case such Writings in some things be not clear to all capacities , ( as the Writings of Moses his law were not , nor any Writings though possibly yet hardly can be , when written at seuerall times , by seueral persons , on seuerall and those particular occasions , in different styles , &c. ) By our Lords giuing a Commission to , and leauing a standing Authority in the Successors of these holy Pen-men to expound these their Writings to the people , and by affording them for euer such a Divine Assistance , as in nothing necessary to misinterpret them . X. PRINCIPLE . 10. If the Will of God cannot be sufficiently declared to men by Writing , it must eyther be because no Writing can be intelligible enough for that end , or that it can neuer be known to be written by men infallibly assisted : the former is repugnant to common sense , for Words are equally capable of being understood , spoken or written , the later ouerthrows the possibility of the Scriptures being known to be the Word of God. This is granted . XI . PRINCIPLE . 11. It is agreed among all Christians , that although God in the first Ages of the World did reveal his mind to men immediatly by a Voice of secret inspirations , yet afterwards , hee did communicate his mind to some immediatly inspired to write his Will in Books to be preserued for the benefit of future Ages , and particularly that these Books of the New Testament which we now receaue were so written by the Apostles and Disciples of Iesus-Christ . The Doctor declaring how God after the first Ages was pleas'd to communicate his mind by the Writings ( of Moses &c. ) might and ought to haue added as a Truth , That he also left a Iudge in case of any Controuersy arising about the sense of those Writings , to whose sentence the people were to stand , and do according to it vnder paine of death , as the same Writings inform vs. XII . PRINCIPLE . 12. Such Writings hauing been receiued by the Christian Church of the first Ages as Divine and Infallible , and being deliuered down as such to vs by an vniuersall consent of all Ages since , they ought to be owned by vs as the certain Rule of Faith , whereby we are to judge what the Will of God is in order to our Saluation , vnlesse it appear with an euidence equall to that whereby we believe those Books to be the Word of God , that they were neuer intended for that end , because of their obscurity or imperfection . Here , these words ( whereby we are to judge ) being vnderstood not vniuersally , of all Christians , but of those to whom amongst Christians , this Office of judging in dubious cases , is delegated by our Lord : Or vnderstood vniuersally , that is , so farr as the sense of these Scriptures is to all men clear and vndisputable , This Proposition is granted . XIII . PRINCIPLE . 13. Although we cannot argue against any particular way of Reuelation from the necessary Attributes of God , yet such a way as Writing being made choyce of by him we may justly say , that it is repugnant to the nature of the designe , and the Wisdome and Goodnesse of God to giue infallible assurance to persons in writing his Will , for the benefit of Mankind , if those Writings may not be vnderstood by all persons who sincerely endeauour to know the meaning of them in all such things as are necessary for their saluation . This Principle is vnsound . Because if God ( who according to the Doctors 7. Principle , may reueal his Will in , or without Writing , after what manner he pleaseth ) may reveal it in these Writings so , as that in many things it may be clear only to some persons more versed in the Scriptures and in the Churches Traditional sense of them , and more assisted from aboue according to their employment , which Persons he hath appointed to instruct the rest , and these to learne it of them , in those places or Points wherein to these persons Gods Will is obscure : then , I say , though these Writings be not such as that euery one may attaine the understanding of them by his owne endeavours , yet if he may by others , namely , his Instructors , this also consists very well with the Diuine designe , with his Wisdome and Goodnesse , as also it would , had he left no Writings at all , but only Teachers to deliuer his Will perpetually to his Church . Concerning these Vvritings pretended by the Doctor to be intelligible by all Persons , &c. I find as it seems to me , a contrary Principle aduanced by Doctor Field , ( a person of no small authority in the Church of England ) in his Preface to the large Volume he thought it necessary to write on the Church . Seeing ( sayth he ) the Controuersies of Religion ( that is , in things of great consequence , as he says afterwards ) in our times are grown in number so many , and in matter so intricate , that few haue time and leasure , fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine them ; Vvhat remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence , but diligently to search out which amongst all the Societies of the world is that blessed Company of Holy Ones , that Houshold of Faith ▪ that Spouse of Christ and Church of the liuing God , vvhich is ihe Pillar and ground of Truth , that so he may embrace her Communion , follow her Directions , and rest in her Iudgment ? Thus doctor Field ; who in his last words ( rest in her Iudgment ) speaks home enough , and discouers the only efficacious way of curing Sects . And see also vvhether this doth not confront the Doctors 29. Principle , Church-Infallibility there being changed into Church-Auctority , and the Principle being applyed to priuate mens Practise . And what need is there of Bishops , Presbyters , or any Ecclesiastical Pastors among Protestants , as to the Office of teaching or expounding these Writings , if these in all necessaries are clear to all Persons who sincerely endeauour to know the meaning of them , I mean , exclusiuely to their repairing to these Pastors for the learning of it ? And doth not the Doctor here to euacuate the infallibility of the Churches Gouernors introduce an infallibility or Inerrabillity of euery particular Christian in all points necessary , if such Christians will , that is , if only he shall sincerely endeauour to know the meaning of them ? And moreouer of the sincerity of this his endeauour also I suppose the Doctor will allow any one may be certain ( else how can the mind of a poore illiterate Countrey-man be at rest , who can neyther trust to the Faith of his Guides , nor the sufficiency of his own industry ) For surely this sincere , is not all possible , endeauour ; such as is learning the Languages , perusing Commentators , &c. But as Mr Chillingworth ( who anchored his whole Religion vpon it ) states this Point , namely , such a measure thereof , as humane Prudence and ordinary Discretion , ( their abilities and opportunities , and all other things considered ) shall aduise . And thus , such a clearness in necessaries must the Scriptures haue as suits with the very lowest capacities . Such a Clearnesse , I say , euen to all Articles of the Athanasian Creed , if these be esteemed Necessaries ; and euen as to the Consubstantiality of the Son with God the Father . In which notwithstanding the whole Body of Socinians dares to oppose all Antiquity , vpon pretence of cleare Scripture to the contrary . But then the Doctor is desired to consider , That if euery Christian may become thus Infallible in Necessaries from 1. a clear Rule , 2. a due Industry vsed , 3. and a certainty that it is so vsed ; May not the Church-Gouernors still much rather be allowed infallible , and so retain still their infallible Guide-ship ; and the People also , the more clear the Rule of Faith is proued to be , the more securely be referred to their direction ? And haue we not all reason to presume that the chief Guides of the Church ( euen a General Councill of them , or if it be but a major part of this Councill , t is sufficient ) in their consults concerning a Point necessary to saluation deliuered in Scripture , vse at least so much endeauour ( for more needs not ) as a plain Rustick doth , to vnderstand the meaning of it ; and also the like sincerity ? For what they define for others , they define for themselues also , and their Saluation is as much concern'd , as any other mans is , in their mistakes . And next : Why may not these Gouernors , vpon such certainty of a sincere endeauour and clearness of the Rule , take vpon them to define these Points , and enjoyn an assent to , and belief of them to their Subjects ; especially since it is affirmed , that all those , from whom they require such Obedience , if they please to vse a sincere endeauour , may be certain thereof , as well as they ? And are we not here again arriued at Church-Infallibility , if not from extraordinary Diuine assistance , yet from the clearness of the Rule ? Only we must suppose such sincere endeauour in the Church , as the Doctor allows may be in euery priuat man. And thus does not his conditionall Infallibility of particular persons in necessaries , the condition being so easy , necessarily inferr a Morall Impossibility of the Churches erring in them ? Which ought the rather to be admitted by them : Since some of their Divines , to make this their Problem the more iustifiable , that the Scriptures in all necessaries are clear to all persons ▪ , think it a safe way in the next place to contract these necessaries to the Apostles Creed . But after all , supposing these Gouernors in stating some Points fallible enough : I cannot hence gather any just relaxation of their Subjects submission of their judgment to them , vpon pretence of clearness , because such Fallibility of their Superiors in some Points can , reasonably , be supposed to arise from nothing else , but some obscurity in the Rule , which must be greater still to their Subjects : and then , what more fitting and ordinary , then in matters of consequence to follow a prudent and experienced , though fallible , persons Direction , rather then our own ? Lastly , suppose this granted , That the Scriptures may be vnderstood by all persons , in all things necessary ( and so an infallible Guide vselesse ; ) yet I see not what aduantage the Doctor can make of this Principle for the Protestant Religion . For since the sence of Scripture is now de facto debated between Catholiks and Protestants about so many necessary Points of Faith , the Doctor cannot with truth or charity affirm the sense of these Scriptures clear to be vnderstood on the Protestants side to all those who sincerely endeauour to know their meaning , where the Major part of Christendom vnderstands their meaning contrary , as he must grant they doe in all those hee accounts the common Errours both of the Greek and Roman Church : ( a large Catalogue of which may be found in many Protestant Authours ) And will he charge all these as defectiue in a sincere endeauour ? But rather such sincere endeauour being indifferently allowd to all parties , he ought to pronounce the sence of Scripture to be clear , if on any , on that side as the Major part doth apprehend it : Which certainly is not the Protestant . For Example : How can the Doctor rationally maintain this Text Hoc est Corpus meum , so often repeated with out any variation of the Terms , to bear a sense clear on the Protestants side ; that is , That the Eucharist is not in a litterall or Proper sence the Body of Christ ; when as they are vnderstood in a litterall sence by much the Major part of the Christian world , not onely the Western but Eastern Churches also ( as Monsieur Claude concedes to his worthy Aduersary Monsieur Arnaud ) to which also may be added half the Body of the Protestants , namely , all the Lutherans . Now all these haue vsed their senses , and weighed the arguments drawn from them , as well as Protestants . But if the Doctor put this Text so much controuerted among Obscure Scriptures ( which therefore not containing any Point necessary to saluation , saluation is not endangered by it ) if a Christian should err or be mistaken in their sense , then how comes this great Body of Christians meerly by the mistake of its sence in thinking that our Lord meaneth as the words sound , that the Eucharist is his very proper Body , and so in adoring ( as they ought , should it be so ) how come they , I say , to committ such grosse Idolatry , as the Doctor in his Book chargeth them with , and so all without repentence , miscarry in their Saluation ? And if from a Major part of the present Church interpreting Scripture an Appeal be made to a Major part of the Ancient Church , pretended to interpret them on the Protestants side ; neither will this relieue the Doctor , because since this also ( on what side Antiquity stands ) is a thing in Controuersy , for deciding of it we are to presume here likewise that a sincere endeauour being allowd to all Parties to vnderstand the sense of the former Church , this also stands on that side as the Major part apprehends it . Now the present Catholick Church ( being a Major part ) professes to follow the sence of the Ancient in interpreting Scripture . XIV , PRINCIPLE . 14. To suppose the bookes so written to be imperfect , that is , that any things necessary to be heleeued or practised are not contained in them , is either to charge the first Author of them with fraud , and not deliuering his whole mind ; or the writers with insincerity in not setting it downe ; and the whole Christian Church of the first Ages with folly , in belieuing the fullnesse and perfection of the scriptures in order to saluation . The two inferences made here by the Doctor are faulty . For 1. Neither can the first Author of scripture be charged with fraud , if he haue deliuered part of his mind only by writing , and part some other way : as the Doctour ( Prop. 7. 8. 9. ) acknowledges he might : vnless it be manifest that he hath obliged himselfe by a Promise of delivering his whole mind by writing , which is not shewed . 2. Neither can the Writers of scripture be charged with insincerity , if , so much as they were inspired with to set downe and register there , they haue done it . Meanwhile as touching the Perfection of Holy scriptures , Catholiks now , as the Holy Fathers anciently , do grant , that they contain all Points of Faith which are simply necessary to be of all Persons belieued for attaining saluation . And of this Doctor Field may be a Witness , who saith , For matters of Faith , we may conclude according to the judgment of the best and most learned of our Adversaries themselues , that there is nothing to be belieued , which is not either expresly contained in scripture , or at least by necessary consequence from thence , and by other things euident in the Light of Nature , or in the matter of Fact , to be concluded . XV. PRINCIPLE . 15. These Writings being owned as containing in them the whole Will of God so plainly reuealed , that no sober enquirer can misse of what is necessary for saluation ; there can be no necessity supposed of any infallible society of men either to attest and explain these Writings among Christians , any more then there was for some Ages before Christ of such a Body of men among the Iewes , to attest and explain to them the Writings of Moses or the Prophets . The Consequence here is good , viz. That supposing the Will of God is so clearly reuealed in these Writings , that no sober Enquirer can misse of knowing what is necessary to saluation , there can be then no necessity of any Infallible society . But the supposition of such a clearenesse , fayles , as the 13. Prosiosition , on which it is grounded , doth . It failes , I say , in the sense the Doctor deliuers it , who referrs his sober enquirer only to the Writings themselues for information in all Necessaries , Without consulting his spirituall Pastours for the right explication of them . Nor doth the Doctors Language any where run thus , That the will of God is so plainly revealed in these Writings ( for then he should say so obscurely rather ) that no sober man , not who repairs to the Writings , but who enquires of , and learns from his spirituall Pastours the right sence of them , shall miss , &c. But if the supposition in the Doctors sence be allowed for true , there seems to follow something more then the Doctor deduceth , and which perhaps he would not admit : viz. the non-necessity of any society at all , fallible or infallible , to explain these Writings , as to Necessaries ( all Christians being herein clearly taught from God in these scriptures , or this their Rule ) vnless perhaps these Teachers may be said to be left by our Lord for others to supersede their endeauours ; or for instructing them in non-necessaries . As touching that which the Doctor in the clause of this Princ. speaks , of Moses and the Prophets : certain it is , that Moses his Writings and the Law were not penned with such Clarity , But that Doubts and Controuersies might arise concerning the sence of it : so we find mention made of doubts , between Law and Commandement , statutes and Iudgments : And 2. such Doubts arising , their address was to be made to the supreme Iudges appointed for deciding them . 3. Whateuer their sentence was , according to the sentence of the Law that these should teach them , and according to the judgment that they should tell , and inform them , they were to do : and that vpon pain of death . To do , I say , according to such sentence ; not only when they were to vndergo some mulct , or punishment imposed by these Judges for a fault ; but when they were enjoyned the obseruance of some Law formerly misunderstood by them and so broken and disobeyed . This seems clear enough from the words of the Text : for who can reasonably interpret them thus , Thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee , to the right hand or to the left , ( vers . 11. ) that is , Thou shalt not decline in not paying the mulct in which they shall fine thee , or not vndergoing the corporall punishment they shall inflict on thee : Thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall informe thee , and according to the sentence of the Law that they shall teach thee ( vers . 10. ) that is , thou shalt suffer what they impose , but not obey what they enjoyn . Again they were to do according to such sentence , vpon pain of death , not then only , when the Litigants do aknowledge their sentence to be ( juxta Legem Dei ) conformable to Gods Law ( for then what sentence of the Iudge would stand good ? ) but so often as the Judge should declare it to be conformable to Gods Law : And when will a Judge declare his sentence to bee otherwise ? Lastly , not to debate here the Infallibility of these supreme Judges as to all necessaries in the Law of Moses , Let the like absolute Obedience be now yielded to the supreme Ecclesiasticall Courts ; Let their sentence be so conformed to , so assented to among Christians , for none is obliged to do a thing ( as the Jewes were by those Judges ) but is , by the same decree , obliged to assent and beleeue the doing it lawfull , and more is not required . XVI . PRINCIPLE . 16. There can be no more intollerable Vsurpation vpon the Faith of Christians , then for any Person or society of men to pretend to an Assistance , as infallible in what they propose as was in Christ or his Apostles , without giuing an equall degree of euidence that they are so assisted , as Christ and his Apostles did , viz. by Miracles as great , publick and conuincing as theirs were : by which I mean , such , as are wrought by those very persons who challenge this Infallibility , and with a design for the conuiction of those who do not belieue it . Notwithstanding the Doctors Assertion in this Proposition , That a society pretending to Infallibility is obliged to confirm such a pretention by Miracles as great as Christ and his Apostles did : yet himself and the Archbishop whom he defends , do hold that there is after the Apostles times a body or society Infallible in Fundamentalls , viz. such Oecumenicall Councills as are vniuersally accepted by the Catholick Church ; which Church , they say , from our Lord's Promise , can neuer err in Fundamentalls . Now it is certain this society is not equally assisted with miracles , as our Lord or his Apostles were . Therefore the Doctor may do well to reuiew this Principle . 1. But its failings being of no difficult discouery , I shall not let it pass vnexamined . First , then I see no reason , that those equally assisted by God in deliuering a Truth , must also be enabled by him to giue an equall euidence of such Assistāce , where there is not the same necessity of it ; as there is not , when the later deliuer no new thing from the former . 2. Again , Though none can pretend to be Infallible , or actually not erring in what he proposeth , but that he must be as infallible , as to the truth of that wherein he erreth not , as our Lord , or his Apostles ; for one , or one persons truth , is no more true then any others : yet in many other respects the Churches Infallibility is much inferiour to that of the Apostles ; in that it is . 1. Neither for its matter so farr extended , the Apostles being affirmed infallible in all they deliuered , as well in their Arguments as Conclusions , both in their relating things heard from our Lord , and things anew inspired by the Holy Ghost : whereas the Church-Gouernours are acknowledged infallible only in their Definitions in matters of necessary Faith ; and , not in their receiuing any new matters inspired by God , but in faithfully deliuering the Inspirations of the former . 2. Neither for the manner are the Church-Gouernours so highly assisted , by reason of the other knowledge and euidence they haue of that Doctrine , first deliuered by the Apostles , and so from them receiued , which vnchanged they conuey vnto Posterity . Of which degrees of infallibility see Archbishop Lawd pag. 254. and 140. 3. And in the third place , hence it follows , that Miracles hauing been wrought by the first in confirmation of that Doctrine which both deliuer , are not now alike necessary to , or reasonably demanded of the second . 4. Yet , since our Lord and his Apostles time , Miracles haue been , and are continued in the Church : of which see irrefragable testimonies giuen by S. Augustin : In that Church , I say , that pretends Infallibility ; and only in that Church , not any other , departed from it , pretending thereto : And vniuersally to deny the truth of them is to ouerthrow the faith of the most credible Histories . But these are done in these later , as in former , times , only when , and for what ends God , and not man his Instrument , pleaseth , and many times without such persons precedent knowledge , in making his Requests , what the Diuine Majesty will effect . Neither are the Apostles themselues to be imagined to haue had the Operation of Miracles so in their power , as as to do these in any kind , when , and upon what Persons they pleased , or others demanded . For such a thing would be of such a force vpon mens wills to compell them into Christianity , or to reduce unto the Catholick Church Christians strayed from it , as the Diuine Prouidence , perhaps for the greater tryall of mens hearts , and merit of their Faith , hath not ordinarily vsed . 5. Lastly , Miracles remaining still in this Church , though they be not professedly done for conuincing a Dissenter in this or that particular Truth , yet do sufficiently testifie in generall a security of saluation in the Communion and Faith of this Church , if God only honours with them the Members of this Communion , and no others that liue out of it : as we see no other Christian society diuided from it that layes claim to them , or shews any Records of them , or euer did : at least such as may be any way equalled , either for frequency , variety , or eminency with those of this Church ; I mean , although so many of these be rejected and layd aside , where appears any rationall ground of suspicion . That the Doctor and the Archbishop do hold such Generall Councills as haue an vniuersall Acceptation from the Church Catholik diffusiue , to be Infallible , seems to me clear from the places forecited in them . For in those both the Doctor and Archbishop admitt , That the Church diffufiue is for euer preserued Infallible in all Fundamentalls , or Points absolutely necessary to saluation ; and this by vertue of the Diuine Promise , that the Gates of Hell shall not preuail against her , and other Texts : And therefore such Councills whose Decrees are admitted by the whole Church diffusiue , must be so too . I say , as to Fundamentalls , though as to other Points not fundamentall they affirme these Councills also lyable to errour and fallible , because the Church Catholick diffusiue ( say they ) is so also . Among the Conditions also that render any Generall Councill obligatory they require this for one , that they be vniuersally accepted , or haue the generall consent of the Christian World. such Councills then there may be . And then , such Lawfull Generall Councils , and so approued , and consequently obliging the Christian World , they confess the first four Generall Councils to haue been ; To which Councills therefore they profess all Obedience . Now wee see what kind of Obedience it was these Councils exacted , in the Athanasian Creed , accepted by the Church of England , which contains the summ of their Decrees , viz. no less then assent and belief and submission of judgement , and all this vpon penalty of eternall damnation . And this , if justly required by them , inferrs , vpon the Doctors arguing , their Infallibility . For ( saith he , where Councills challenge an internall Assent by vertue of their Decrees ( or , because their Decrees are in themselues infallible ) there must be first proued an Impossibility of error in them , before they can look on themselues as obliged to giue it . And therefore He and the Archbishop , so farr as any such Councills , are fallible , allow only an Externall Obedience , or silence , to them . Now for Obedience to these first four Generall Councills in a submission of judgment to them , vpon such an Vniuersall Acceptation of them , the Doctor in another place thus writes , The Church of England looks vpon the keeping the Decrees of the fower first Generall Councills as her Duty : and professeth to be guided by the sence of scripture as interpreted by the vnanimous consent of the Fathers , and the fowr fist Generall Councills : that is , shee professeth to take that which such Counciils deliuer , for the sence of scripture : Not then , to admit their Definitions , if first they accord with the scripture taken in our own sence . So also else where he saith , The Church of England doth not admit any thing to be deliuered as the sense of scripture which is contrary to the consent of the Catholick sense of the fowr first Ages ( that is ) in their Oecumenicall Councills , as he expresseth it in the preceding page . And here also he giues the Ground of such submission , viz. a strong presumption , that nothing contrary to the necessary Articles of Faith should be held by the Catholick Church , whose very being depends vpon the belief of those things that are necessary to saluation . And when ( saith he ) those correspondencies were maintained between the seuerall parts of it , that what was refused by one , was so by all . In another place also speaking in generall of Councills vniuersally accepted , he saith , That both the Truth of Gods Promises , the Goodness of God to his People , and his peculiar care of his Church seem highly concerned , that such a Councill should not be guilty of any notorious errour . Here you see he saith , that the Truth of Gods Promises is concerned that these Councills should not fall into any notorious Errour ; Therefore ( such Promises are made absolute to some Church-Gouernors after the Apostles . ) And then , where the Errour is not intollerable , ( saith the Archbishop ) at least Obedience of Non-contradiction will be due to all such Councills . Now a notorious Errour it must needs be , if an Errour in Fundamentalls . And such notorious Errour in particular would this be , If they should hold themselues ( when they are not ) infallible in their Decrees , and so should require a Generall Assent ( such as that in the Athanasian Creed ) from Christians to them , as to Diuine Reuelations , and make them DE FIDE , thereby , in case any Decree be not true , obliging all the Members of the Church to an Vnity in errour . Thus farr then , as to Fundamentall Errours , it seems Gods Prouidence secures both such Councills , and their subjects : And then also for their erring in Non-fundamentalls , both He and the Archbishop put this among the RARO CONTINGENTIA . The Archbishop also is much in justifying the Catholick Church infallible not only in its Being , but Teaching , and that must be by its Councills . Doctor White , saith he , had reason to say , That the Visible Church had in all Ages taught that vnchanged Faith of Christ in all Points Fundamentall . And again It is not possible the Catholick Church ( that is , of any one Age ) should teach against the word of God in things absolutely necessary to saluation . Where the word ( teach ) shews , that he intends the Gouernors of the Church in euery Age. Likewise in another place , If we speak ( saith he ) of plain and easy scripture , the whole Church cannot at any time be without the knowledge of it . And , If A. C. meane no more , then that the whole Vniuersall Church of Christ cannot vniuersally erre in any one Point of Faith simply necessary to mens saluation , be fights against no Aduersary that I know , but his own fiction . Where it follows , But if he mean that the whole Church cannot erre in any one point of Diuine Truth in generall , if in these the Church shall presume to determine without her Guide , the scripture , then perhaps it may be said , that the whole Militant Church hath erred in such a Point . Here then the first , of the whole Church not erring in Fundamentalls , as well as the second , are spoken of the Church determining . And so is that saying of his , viz. That though the Mother-Church Prouinciall or National , may erre , Yet if the Grand mother , the whole Vniuersall Church ( that is , in her Generall Councills vniuersally accepted controlling the other Prouincial or National ) cannot erre in these necessary things , all remains safe ; and all occasions of disobedience ( that is , to the Grand-mothers commands ) taken from the possibility of the Churches erring . ( namely , as to all necessaries ) are quite taken away . Thus he . But safe , &c. it could not be , if the Catholick Church , the Grand mother , as she held , so could not also witness , all the necessary Truths against such inferiour Councills . But how these things will te reconciled with what the Doctor saith else where I know not : Let him take care of it : as name ly where he writes thus : You much mistake , when you think we resolue our faith of fundamentalls into the Church as the infallible witness of them . For though the Church may be infallible in the belief of all things fundamentall ( for otherwise it were not a Church if it did not belieue them ) it doth not follow thence necessarily , that the Church must infallibly witness what is fundamentall and what not . And again That all infallible assistance makes not an infallible Testimony , or makes not the Testimony of those that haue it infallible surely Teaching , declaring its consent , condemning Doctrins contrary to Fundamentalls , is Witnessing , or giuing Testimony . XVII . PRINCIPLE . 17. Nothing can be more absurd then to pretend the necessity of such an infallible Commission and Assistance to assure us of the Truth of these Writings , and to interpret them , and at the same time to proue that Commission from those Writings from which we are told nothing can be certainly deduced , such an assistance not being supposed ; or to pretend , that infallibility in a Body of men is not lyable to doubts and disputes , as in those Bookes from whence only they deriue their Infallibility . I. For the former part of this Principle ( viz. Nothing can be more absurd then to pretend the necessity of , &c. ) If the Doctor in the words ( at the same time to proue that Commission from these Writings ) means here , to proue such Commission or Assistance only , or in the first place from these Writings , the truth of Which Writings are first or onely proued from such Commission , &c. the Absurdity vrged by him I grant . 1. As all Articles of Faith are not by all Persons learnt at once , so neither by all , exactly in the same order , as is frequently obserued by Catholick Writers . A Christians Faith therefore may begin either at the Infallible Authoriry of scriptures , or of the Church ; and this Infallible Authority of either of these be learnt from Tradition ; and that of the other from it , viz. 1. either the Infallible Authority of the scriptures from that of the Church , the Church testifying so much of the scriptures : Or 2. that of the Church from the scriptures : Or 3. Also , the Infallibility of either of these may be rightly proued from its own testimony . For whoeuer is proued , or granted , once infallible in what he saith , the consequence is clear ( without any Circle , or Petitio Principii , or identicall arguing ) that whateuer he doth witness of himselfe is true . I say all these Consequences are naturall and necessary . 1. The Testimony being granted euident that the one bears to the other , or either to its selfe : and 2. the infallibility of one of these , either of the scripture , or of the Church , being , first , learnt not from its own , or the others testimony , but from Tradition . 2. When a Catholick then first receiues an assurance of the Truth , or Canon of scripture from the Infallibility of the Church , or its Gouernors , he may learne first this supernaturall Diuine assistance and Infallibility of these Gouernors ( which is made known by Diuine Reuelation to those first persons who communicate it to posterity ) from Tradition descending from age to age , in such manner , as the Protestant saith , he learneth his Canon of scripture from Tradition . To which tradition also may be committed by our Lord , or his Apostles , whateuer is to scripture . 3. Neither may we think , that this Diuine Assistance or infallibility of these Guides of the Church in necessaries , should either not haue been , or not haue been a thing well known to , or belieued in the Church by this ( to use the Doctors terms ) Deriuatiue and perpetuated sensation of Tradition , if there had been no Diuine Writings : for soe the Christian religion Without such writings would haue been no rationall and well grounded , no stable and certain Religion , which surely the Doctor will not affirme . And this that is said here of the Churches Infallible Authority , may be also of other necessary Articles of the Christian faith . For , as the Doctor saith , It is euident from the Nature of the thing , that the Writing of a Diuine Reuolation is not necessary for the ground and reason of Faith , as to that Reuelation . Because men may belieue a Diuine Reuelation without it , as is euident in the Patriarchs and Christian Beleiuers before the Doctrine written . 4. Such Infallibility in necessaries then being so settled in the Gouernors and Pastors of the Church , ( the Apostles and those others ordained by them , by whom the World was conuerted ) as that had there been no scriptures , it should not haue failed : for so the Church would haue failed too . The successors cannot be imagined to become disenabled , or depriued of it , because the Apostles afterwards wrote what they taught ; but rather by such Writings more secured in it : Because the Belief of this Infallibility of these successors receiues a second euidence from the Testimony thereof also found in these Writings . Thus both written , and vnwritten , Tradition-Apostolicall attesting it . 5. Now that these Gouernors of the Church ( who hauing an apparent succession , their Testimony must haue been vnquestionably belieued by Christians in what they taught , in case there had been no scripture ) alwayes reputed and held themselues Diuinely assisted , and infallible for all necessaries , and that this was the Traditiue Faith of the Church ( grounded on our Lords Promise ) in all ages , sufficiently appears by their inserting from time to time ( as they thought fitt ) their Decisions in the Creeds and by their Anathematizing Dissenters , & the Churches stiling them Hereticks . For no Authority ( if we belieue the Doctor ) but that wich proues it selfe Infallible , and therefore which is Infallible , can justly require our internall Assent , or submission of Iudgment . And Protestants allowing only an externall obedience , or silence , due to Councills Fallible , inferrs that Councills Fallible can justly require no more : and consequently that such Councills are Infallible as do justly require more ; as did the fowr first Councills , with the voluntary acknowledgment also and submission of their subjects to such an Authority assumed by them . We find indeed subordinate Councills also stating sometimes matters of Faith , censuring Heretiks , and requiring assent to their Decrees ; but still with Relation to the same Infallibility residing in the Generall Body of Church ▪ Gouernors , and their concurrence therein : They not passing such Acts without consulting the Tradition and Iudgment of other Churches , and especially of the Apostolick see : and a generall acceptation rendring their Decisions authentick and valid . 2. For the latter part of this Principle [ Nothing is more absurd , then to pretend that Infallibility in a Body of men , is not as lyable to doubts and disputes , as in those Bookes from whence only they deriue their Infallibility . ] If the Doctor means here ( as in his Rationall Account , that the sentence of a Body of men Infallible is , he saith not , in some things lyable to some Doubts ; but as lyable to Doubts and Disputes , as the Infallible scriptures ( for there he maintains , That the Decrees of Councills are as lyable to many Interpretations , as any other Writings . And again , If the scriptures cannot put an End to Controuersies on that account , how can Generall Councills do it , when their Decrees are as lyable to a priuate sense and wrong Interpretation , as the scriptures are , Nay more , &c. ) I say , if this be his sense , then , not to compare Absurdities here , Is not this all one as if he said , That a Preacher or Commentator can , or doth speak or write nothing plainer , then the Text ? Nor the Judge giue a sentence any more intelligible , then the Law ? That Councills can , or haue decided nothing clearer , then the thing that is in Controuersy ? And so , no Party is cast by them , since it appears not , for whom they declare ? And that the Decree of the Councill of Trent , as to Transubstantiation remains still as disputable , as the Text , Hoc est Corpus meum ? But then , how comes it to pass , that Protestants , when the Definitions of later Councills are urged against them , do not contest them as dubious , but reject them , as erroneous ? From the same misarguing the Doctor elsewhere concludes , That the argument of the Vnity ( in Opinion ) of the Roman Party , because they are ready to submit their Iudgment to the Determination of the Church , will hold as well ( or better ) for the Vnity of Protestants , as theirs ; because all men are willing to submit their Iudgments to scriptures , which is on all sides agreed to be Infallible . Thus He. Now to consider it . Moses his Law prescribed by God for an Infallible Rule , yet had Iudges appointed , when Doubts and Contentions hapned about the meaning of it , to explain the sense : Our sauiour , accordingly in the Ghospell , when any one had a Controuersy against another , ( which Controuersy perhaps might be Heresy , or his Brothers teaching something contrary to the Rule of Faith ) ordered , vpon such Person his not being otherwise reclaimed , that in the last place the matter should be brought to the Hearing of the Church , and such Person , if not hearing the Church , to be excommunicated ▪ Now I ask , to what end either of these , if such persons be no nearer to Vnity of Opinion , or conuiction and ending their Disputes by submitting their judgments to the sentence of these Iudges , or this Church , then before they were in the same submission of theirs to the Rule . Infallibility alone ends not Controuersies , but clearness ; Clearness in the Point controuerted : Which if the scripture hath , how comes Controuersy about it ? and Controuersies between so great Parties , Churches , Nations ? In this sense of scripture Catholiks dissenting , repair to the Decision of the Church ( w ch if any way obscure is capable of being made by it afterward more intelligible ) submit to its Iudgment , and so become vnited in Opinion in all those Points the Church decides : wherein Protestants rejoyce in their Liberty still to disagree . Vnited in Opinion , I say ; true or false , here matters not : We speak here of Vnion , not of Truth . But now , when the sense of scripture is the like matter of Controuersy between two sects of Protestants , as frequently it is , What Course do they take for Vnity of Opinion ? Repair they again to the scriptures they controvert ? But these can neuer decide which of the seuerall senses they take them in , is the true . Repair they to synods ? So the Arminians and Antiarminians did ? Then surely this they do , because that Vnity ( prouided there be a submission of Iudgment to both ) is attainable by the sentence of the synod or Church , which is not by that of the scripture . Which is the thing here denyed by the Doctor . And hence it proceeds , that Catholicks must be much more vnited in Opinion or Iudgment , then Protestants ; in as much as they all owne submission of Iudgment to so many Councills , which the other reject ; These not accepting the Decrees of aboue fowr or siue of those Councills , whilst the Catholiks admit of fowr ( or suppose , three ) times so many , and namely of one , the Councill of Trent ; of which Soaue affirms , That in all the Councills held in the Church from the Apostles times vntill then , there were neuer so many Articles decided as in only one session of it . And Protestants aggrauate the Tyranny of the Church of Rome in tying all her subjects vnanimously to belieue , and that as necessary to saluation so many Points of Faith , wherein the Protestants leaue to all men liberty of Opinion . And moreouer , as for those Differences that remain still , or shall arise hereafter , they are also conclusiue among them by the same way of Councills , vpon the acknowledged obligation of a common submission of their judgments . I say not , all their differences whatsoeuer are conclusiue ( which causeth some wonder in the Doctor , that this thing is not done in an Infallible Church ) but so many of them wherein the Church finds on any side sufficient euidence of Tradition ; or , for the grauity of the matter ; a Necessity of Decision : The same Diuine Prouidence that preserues his Church perpetually Infallible in all things necessary to be determined , disposing also , that for all such necessaries , there shall be a sufficient euidence of Tradition , either of the Conclusion it selfe , or its Principles . But as for seuerall other matters of Diuine Reuclation , where what is to be held as de fide is not sufficiently yet cleared , either by reason of the sense of scripture , or of the sense of some Conciliary Decree still disputed among Catholicks , in matters that are called indeed , by the one or other Party , de fide , as they variously apprehend this sense of scripture , or Councill ; No such agreement , I say , in matters of Faith thus taken , is at all pretended : And their accord in the rest sufficiently transcends that of Protestants . But euen these also are capable of the same settlement , when the Church shall pass a new sentence concerning them . Here then may be resumed that Expression selected by Doctor Tillotson to make sport with , viz. That in this their Faith ( namely , as to Points thereof determined by the Church ) it is impossible that Catholiks should differ one from another , and that there should be any Schism among them . The Reason is plain , because in all such Points they vnanimously Submit their judgment to their Mother the Church : or if any doth not , he ceaseth to be a Catholick . Whereas Protestants not acknowledging any necessary Obligation of such Submission to any Superiours among them , it is impossible that debates and Schisms should be auoyded by them . XVIII . PRINCIPLE . 18. There can be no hazard to any person in mistaking the meaning of any particular place in those Bookes , supposing he use the best means for understanding them , comparable to that which euery one runs who belieues any person or society of men to be infallible who are not : For in this later he runs vnauoydably into one great errour , and by that may be led into a thousand : but in the former God hath promised either he shall not erre , or he shall not be damned for it . God hath made no such Promise concerning any one , who vseth his best endeanours for vnderstanding scripture , that either he shall not erre , or not be damned for it , if such endeauour be vnderstood exclusiuely to his consulting and embracing the expositions of the Church : which if the Doctor includes , then Catholicks also affirme , that in necessaries such persons cannot mistake . Neither can such Promise be pretended necessary , since God hath referred all , in the dubious sense of his scriptures , to the Directions and Doctrine of his Ministers , their spirituall Guides , whom he hath set ouer them , to bring them in the Vnity of the Faith to a perfect man , and that they may not be tossed to and fro and carryed about with euery wind of Doctrine by the sleight of those that lye in wait to deceiue . And , without which Guide , S. Peter obserues that in his time some persons ( for any thing we know , diligent enough , yet ) through want of learning , and the instability of adhering to their Guides , being unlearned , saith he , and vnstable , wrested some places of scripture , hard to be vnderstood , to their own destruction : Therefore these scriptures are also , in some great and important Points , hard to be vnderstood . Now therefore let the Doctor giue me leaue to put these two other Propositions in the other scale to counterpoise his . The first , That a Person in belieuing any society of men to be Infallible that are so , hath a security incomparably beyond that of another Person who is supposed to use the best other means , his condition is capable of , to understand the scriptures , and so follows his own judgment : the capacity of most Christians being very little , abstracting from the Directions of a Guide their mean condition voyd of learning , or leasure , and it being a thing vncertain also , when they haue vsed a due endeauour ; And this a prejudice of it not rightly used , that they do not discerne in these scriptures this Infallible Guide , which ( saith S. Augustin ) the scripture without any ambiguity doth demonstrate ; and which repaired to , may demonstrate to them what else is necessary . The second Proposition is , That there can be no such hazard to any person in belieuing a society of men to be infallible , that are not . if this society be at least more learned and studied in Diuine matters then himselfe , and also ordained by our Lord to be his Instructors in them ( which Protestants , I hope , allow true of their own Clergy : ) No such hazard , I say , as is comparable to that euery one incurrs in mistaking the meaning of scriptures , though we suppose he vseth his best other means of vnderstanding them , exclusiue to his obeying the Instructions of such a society . [ Witness the vnhappy Socinians , and all other grosser sects of late sprung out of Disobedience . ] For whereas , in following these Guides , such persons may fall into some errours , and perhaps some of them great ones ; in this later way of following their owne fancyes the vnlearned may fall into a thousand , and some of these much greater and grosser , then any such Christian society or Body of Clergy will euer maintain . For God hath made no Promise to preserue in Truth those who desert their Guides ; nor to reward their diligence , who liue in disobedience . XIX . PRINCIPLE . 19. The assistance which God hath promised to those who sincerely desire to know his will , may giue them greater assurance of the truth of what is contained in the Bookes of scripture , then it is possible for the greatest Infallibility in any other persons to do , supposing they haue not such assurance of their Infallibility . 1. First obserue , that whateuer Diuine assistance is aduanced here against the assurance that can be receiued from Church-Infallibility , the same is more against any assurāce that may be had from Church-Authority . Thus it happens more then once in these Principles , that in too forward a Zeale in demolishing the one , the other also is dangerously vndermined . 2. The Doctor hath all reason here to suppose , him that repairs to , and is instructed by an Infallible Guide , though not knowing him to be such , as well as him , who seeks for an assurance of his Faith , without one , sincerely to desire to know Gods will , and vpon this to enjoy his promised Assistance , so far as God engageth it . And then if the Question be , which of these two takes the more prudent course , he that consults , or he that lays aside this Guide , for his assurance of the truth of what is contained in the Bookes of scripture ; I should think , the former . Whilst the one relyes on the judgment of such Guide thought wise and learned , though not infallible ; the other on his own : On the judgment of which Guide the one hath much more reason to be confident , then the other on his own , who neglects the advice of the Wise man [ Ne innitaris prudentiae tuae ] Lean not on thy own Prudence . At least the Doctor must grant the former ( of the two ) to be de facto in a much safer condition . For it must be acknowledged a great benefit to haue an Infallible Guide to shew us our way , though we doe not know him to be Infallible : for so we keep still in the right way , though belieuing only , and not infallible certain , that it is so ; so we walke in Humility and obedience . And if God hath directed us , for learning our right way , to a Guide , surely he will take no prudent course , who committing himselfe to Gods immediate Assistance , shall neglect it ; and break his commandement in hope of his fauour . XX. PRINCIPLE . 20. No mans Faith can therefore be infallible meerly because the Proponent is said to be infallible : because the nature of Assent doth not depend vpon the objectiue Infallibility of any thing without us , but is agreable to the euidence we haue of it in our minds : for Assent is not built on the nature of things , but their evidence to us . This Proposition is granted , viz. That no person is infallibly certain of , or in his Faith , because the Proponent thereof is infallible , vnless he also certainly know , or haue an infallible evidence that he is infallible . Only let it be here remembred , That , for begetting an infallible assent to the thing proposed , it is sufficient if we haue an infalliblé euidence either of the thing proposed , or of the Proponent only : Because if we are infallibly certain that he cannot ly in such matter who relates it to us , we are also hence infallibly certain , that what he says is truth . XXI . PRINCIPLE . 21. It is necessary therefore in order to an infallible assent , that euery particular person be infallibly assisted in judging of the matters proposed to him to be belieued : so that the ground on which a necessity of some Externall Infallible Proponent is asserted , must rather make euery particular person infallible , if no Diuine Faith can be without an infallible assent ; and so renders any other Infallibility vseless . This Proposition , That therefore it is necessary , in order to an infallible assent , that euery particular person be infallibly assisted in judging of the matters proposed to him to be belieued , is not well deduced from the precedent Proposition rightly vnderstood : Neither is it true : and so the Consequence also faileth , viz. [ so that the Ground on which a necessity of some externall Infallible Proponent is asserted , must rather make euery particular person infallible , if no Diuine Faith can be without an infallible assent ; and so renders any other Infallibility useless . ] Because ( as was now said ) for the yeilding an Infallible assent to the things proposed , it is not necessary that the person haue an infallible euidence of the truth of the things proposed , that is , from the Internall Principles that proue , or demonstrate them : But it is enough ( though the things proposed remain still in themselues obscure to him ) that he haue an infallible , or sufficiently certain Euidence only of the Infallibility of the Externall Proponent . The Ground therefore vpon which the necessity of some externall infallible Proponent is asserted for begeting such infallible assent is , because the Person hath by no other way any infallible euidence of the things proposed : Which if he had , then indeed the Proponents Infallibility , for such Points , is rendred vseless . And by this , I hope , sufficiently appeareth that misarguing that seems to cause a great confusion in the Doctor 's Principles : whilst , vpon an infallible assent requiring an infallible Euidence ( layd down in the Twentieth Proposition , and Conceded ) he concludes as necessary to our yielding an infallible assent to all that the Church proposeth , an infallible Euidence of the things proposed ; and then , hence inferres the vselessness of such infallible Proponent . And here note , that though the Churches Infallibility to such a person as is not infallibly assured of it , signifies nothing as to his infallible assurance of that which it proposeth ; Yet it signifies much for his hauing a right and sauing Faith in all those matters proposed by this Church , which cannot misguide him , ( see the Consideration on the nineteenth Principle ) which right and sauing Faith children and other illiterate country people in the Catholick Church haue , without any such infallible assurance concerning the Proponent ( as is abundantly declared by Catholick writers ) In like manner the Protestants also affirme , That the Holy scriptures may signify much to the begetting a true and sauing Faith euen in those who cannot from Vniuersall Tradition certainly proue them to be the word of God. XXII . PRINCIPLE . 22. If no particular person be infallible in the assent he giues to matters proposed by others to him , then no man can be infallibly sure that the Church is infallible : and so the Churches Infallibility can signify nothing to our infallible assurance without an equall infallibility in our selues in the belief of it . [ If no particular person be infallible in the Assent he giues to matters propos'd , &c. ] Here [ Matters ] is left indefinite . If the Doctor means , to any matters at all proposed , the Proposition and Consequence thereto annexed , are true and granted . But on the contrary , a particular person may be infallible in the assent he giues to some matter proposed , viz. to this , That the Church is infallible . If he means , to all matters proposed , then it is faulty and denyed : For though no particular person be infallible in the assent he giues to all matters proposed by others to him , yet may he be so in this , the Churches Infallibility . And so the Consequence also is voyd ; and the Churches Infallibility will signify as much as is expected to mens infallible assurance in those matters it proposeth . Here then Catholicks affirm , That though euery person is not so , any person may be , and that antecedently to the testimony of scripture , at least with a morally-infallible certainty ( or what euer Certainty that may be called which Vniuersall Tradition can afford ) assured of this Diuine Reuelation , the Churches Infallibility , from such Tradition and other Motiues of Credibility as Protestants allow for a sufficiently , or morally-infallible and certain means of belieuing the scriptures to be the word of God. On which word of God , or Diuine Reuelation the seuerall Articles deliuered by it , in the sense their own priuate judgment apprehends the Protestant grounds his Faith : Again on which word of God , or Diuine Reuelation , in the sense this Infallible Church interprets the same Articles the Catholick grounds his Faith. But as the Protestants except here from being primarily grounded on , or proued by the same scriptures , this Fundamentall Point of Faith , That the scriptures are the true Word of God ; so they must giue Catholiks also leaue to except here this their Point of Faith , the infallibility of the Church , from being primarily , or , as to the first means of Knowing it , grounded on , or learnt from the testimony of this Infallible Church . For this Point may first come to the Belieuers Knowledge either from Tradition , or from the Holy scriptures ( as is explained before in the Considerations on 17. Principle . § . 28. ) From the scriptures , I say , as the sense of them is now learnt , not from this Infallible Church , but either from their owne sufficient Clearness in this Point , or from Tradition . Nor are Catholicks necessited in arguing against Protestants ( who grant the scriptures to be Gods Word ) to vse any other Testimony then that of these scriptures for a sufficiently clear Proof of Church-Infallibility . For I think I may call that a clear Proof , euen according to the Doctors common reason of Mankind , which by the most of the Christian World is taken to be so , notwithstanding that a Party , engaged by their Reformation in an apparent contrary interest , do contradict it . Yet whilst they deny a sufficient Euidence of Church-Infallibility to be found in scripture , if they would allow a sufficient Euidence of Church-Authority established to decide Ecclesiasticall Controuersies with Obligation to Externall Obedience , by this Authority they would be cast and silenced for the former , if a much Major Part may be admitted ( as it ought ) to giue Law to the Whole . In the Belief and Profession of Which Church-Infallibility , and submission of priuate mens judgments , to her sentence passed in her synods the Greek Church seems no way varying from the Roman . Jeremias the Constantinopolitan Patriarch in his Contest with the Lutheran Protestants , is much in this , as a sure Retreat for ending Controuersies , and establishing Peace . For he tells them , That those Points which haue been determined or commanded synodically after a Legitimate way of Councills , they are receiued by all Faithfull Christians as consonant to the Diuinely-Inspired scriptures . And in the Conclusion of that Answer , he saith , It is not lawfull for vs confiding in our own priuate Explication , to vnderstand , to obserue or interpret any saying of Diuine scripture any otherwayes then as hath seemed good to those Theologues who haue been approued and receiued by Holy synods directed by Gods spirit ; least that declining from the right Euangelicall Doctrin , the Conceptions of our minds should be carried about hither and thither like a Proteus . But some wilt aske , How shall those things be reformed ? How ? Euen thus by Gods Assistance , if we take not into our hands , nor giue credit to any things besides those which haue been instituted and ordained by the Holy Apostles and Holy synods . He who obserues this limit , is our Companion in celebrating Diuine Mysteries , he is of the same Communion and Faith with us . Again in his Preface to the same answer he saith , We will giue our Answer , not alledging any thing of our own , but from the seauen Oecumenicall synods ( the last of these is that so much persecuted and befoold by Doctor Stillingfleet in his last Book ) And from the sentence of Holy Doctors interpreters of Diuinely inspired scriptures , whom the Catholick Church hath by an Vnanimous consent receiued : since the Holy Ghost hath breathed forth by them and spoken in them such things as shall foreuer remain unmooued , as being founded on the Word of God. For the Church of Christ is the Pillar and ground of Truth , against which the Gates of Hell shall neuer preuail , as God has promised . Here we see in the East the same Zeale for Councills and for Fathers ( taken collectiuely ) as an Infallible Guide , as is in the West , and the like endeauour to reduce Protestants to the same acknowledgment and humble submission of Judgment . XXIII . PRINCIPLE . 23. The Infallibility of euery particular person being not asserted by those who plead for the Infallibility of a Church , and the one rendring the other vseless ( for if euery person be infallible , what needs any Representatiue Church be so too ) and the infallibility of a Church being of no effect if euery Person be not infallible in the belief of it , we are further to enquire what certainty men may haue in matters of Faith , supposing no Externall Proponent to be infallible . The Obseruations made vpon the three immediatly foregoing Propositions ( the matter of which is repeated in this ) do shew that they no way serue him for the vse he would here make of them . The sense of which Propositions , as far as they haue any truth in them , may be returned vpon him , thus : since the Infallibility af any particular person , as to the assent he either doth , or may giue to this Point of the Churches Infallibility is asserted by those who plead for the Infallibility of a Church : And since such infallibility of a particular person as to this point , doth not therefore render at all the Infallibility of a Church vseless to him , viz. as to his learning still from her all those other Points of Faith of which he hath no infallible knowledge or certainty otherwayes , ( in which therefore he not being infallible , that he may not erre in them , it is necessary that the representatiue Church be so : ) And so since the Infallibility of the Church is still of most important effect , both to those who haue and to those who as yet haue not any infallible certainty of this her Infallibility , toguide both these in a true , right and sauing Faith , as to those Points where of they haue no certainty : Therefore there needs no Enquiry after a further Certainty for that our Faith , in which we haue one already from this Infallible Proponent , the Church . XXIV . PRINCIPLE . 24. There are different degrees of Certainty to be attained according to the different degrees of Euidence and measure of Diuine Assistance ; but euery Christian by the use of his reason , and common helpes of Grace may attain to so great a degree of Certainty , from the conuincing arguments , of the Christian Religion and authority of the scriptures , that on the same grounds on which men doubt of the truth of them they may as well doubt of the truth of those things which they judge to be most euident to sense or reason . Here , if the Doctor means , That euery Christian by the use of his Reason and common helps of Grace ( that is , as he hath expressed it already Principle 13. and 18. by his perusing the scriptures , and sincerely endeauouring to know their meaning , exclusuely to his necessary repair to any externall infallible Guide or Proponent , as he pretends in Principle 13. 15. 23. ) may attain to so great a degree of certainty , as to all necessary Points of Faith , ONELY from the conuincing arguments , of the Verity of the Christian Religion and Authority of scriptures , as that such a person may as litle doubt of them , as of the things most euident to sense or Reason ; This Principle is denyed . And for the reason of this denyall I referr to what is said before to Principle 13. and 18. And I appeal also to what Doctor Stillingfleet himselfe elsewhere tells us in his Rationall Account , It seems reasonable , ( saith he , ) that because Art and subtilty may be vsed by such , who seek to peruert the Catholick Doctrin , and to wrest the plain places of scripture which deliuer it , so far from their proper meaning , that very few ordinary capacities may be able to clear themselues of such Mists as are cast before their eyes , the sense of the Catholick Church in succeeding times may be a very usefull way for vs to embrace the true sense of scripture , especially in the great Articles of the Christian Faith : as for instance , in the Doctrine of the Deity of Christ , or the Trinity , &c. Now should not the Doctor , instead of saying , the sence of the Catholich Church in succceding Ages may be a very vsefull way for vs , haue said , is very necessary for vs , if his cause would permit him ? And will not the Socinian thank him for this his mitigation ? But if , according to this Principle , euery Christian without this externall Guide can ( not in some perhaps , but ) in all these Points of Faith attain such certainty as he hath in things most euident to sense or Reason , how doth he stand in need of consulting , or conforming to the sense of the Primitiue Catholick Church ? XXV . PRINCIPLE . 25. No man who firmly assents to any thing as true can at the same time entertain any suspition of the falshood of it , for that were to make him certain and vncertain of the same thing : It is therefore absurd to say , that those who are certain of what they belieue , may at the same time not know but that it may be false : which is an apparent contradiction and ouerthrowes any faculty in vs of judging of truth or falshood . 1. This Principle is euident ; and granted . But such certainty is not applicable to the belief of euery Christian as to all Points of Faith , if he be supposed not assisted by any Externall Infallible Guide . 2. It is true also , that a full and firme Assent , free from doubting ( as where no Reasons offer themselues to perswade vs to the contrary ) may be yielded to a thing as true , which is really false , and at the same time no suspicion be entertained of the falshood of it . XXVI . PRINCIPLE . 26. Whateuer necessarily proues a thing to be true , doth at the same time proue it impossible to be false ; because it is impossible the same thing should be true and false at the same time . Therefore they who assent firmly to the Doctrine of the Ghospell as true , do therby declare their Belief of the Impossibility of the falshood of it . This Proposition is granted . But one who assents firmly in generall to the whole Doctrine of the Ghospell , what euer it be , as true , and so to the impossibility of the falshood of it , or any part of it , doth not therefore , being vnasisted by any Externall Guide , know what this Doctrine is in euery such Point of Faith , where the sense of the Letter of this Ghospell is controuerted and ( to vse the Apostles Phrase ) hard to be vnderstood , and that in matters too hazarding damnation , if mistaken . Therefore me thinks the Doctor should here allow thus much at least ; That all those , who after their perusing the scriptures think themselues not certain of its sense , are obliged ( notwithstanding the silence of these Protestant Principles herein ) to repair to the Direction of these Externall Guides , and these too not taken at aduenture , and to follow their Faith. Now such non-pretenders to Certainty , according to the Doctors tryall of it sett down below in Consid. on Princ. 29. I suppose are the greatest part of Protestants . XXVII . PRINCIPLE . 27. The nature of Certainty doth receiue seuerall names , either according to the nature of the Proof , or the degrees of the Assent . Thus MORALL certainty may be so called , either as it is opposed to MATHEMATICALL Euidence , but implying a firme assent vpon the highest Euidence that Morall things can receiue : Or as it is opposed to a higher degree of certainty in the same kind . so MORALL Certainty implies only greater Probabilities of one side , then the other . In the former sense we assert the Certainty of Christian Faith to be MORALL : not in the later . This Principle is granted , if importing only , that Christians haue , or may haue a sufficiently certain and infallible Euidence of the Truth of their Christianity . But notwithstanding this , Christians may be deficient in a right belief of seuerall necessary Articles of this Christian Faith , if destitute of that externall Infallible Guide therein . And the perpetuall Diuine Assistance , and so , Infallibility in Necessaries of this Guide being declared in the scriptures , a Catholick hauing once learnt this Point of Faith , from it ▪ Definitions and Expositions becomes secure and setled in the belief of all those controuerted Articles of his Faith ; Wherein Others , another ; whilst the scriptures in such Points ( at least to persons vnlearned , or of weaker judgments , which are which are the greatest part of Christians ) are ambiguous in their sence , and drawn with much art to seuerall interests . XXVIII . PRINCIPLE . 28. A Christian being thus certain to the highest degree of a firm assent that the scriptures are the Word of God , his Faith is thereby resolued into the scriptures as into the rule and measure of what hee is to belieue , as it is into the Veracity of God , as the ground of belieuing what is therein contained . Both Catholicks and Protestants profess to resolue their Faith into the Word of God and Diuine Reuelation ( or into the scriptures , so , as is said on Principle 14. and 29. ) and make Gods Veracity the Ground of their belief of the things therein contained . But the former resolue their Faith into this scripture , as the sense of it , where disputed , is deliuered by the Church , whose Faith the Apostle commands vs to follow and to whom Christ himself giues testimony , as S. Augustin saith . As for Protestants , they resolue their Faith into this scripture , as the sence of it is ultimatly apprehended and vnderstood by their own judgments : None here , to vse the Doctors words elsewhere , vsurping that Royall Prerogrtiue of Heauen , in prescribing infallibly in matters question'd ( suppose in those Points the Doctor named before , the Doctrine of the Deity of Iesus Christ , or of the Trinity : ) But leauing all to judge ( and so the Socinians ) according to the Pandects of the Diuine Lawes : because each member of this society is bound to take care of his soul , and all things that tend thereto . But here the Doctor will permit vs to aske whether euery one is bound to take care of his soul , so , as vnder the pretence hereof to disobey their Resolutions and Instructions in Faith or Manners , whom God hath appointed to take care of and to watch ouer their soules , and will require an account of them for it . Here therefore let euery one take the safest course ; and , where there is no euident Certainty , always make sure to side with the Church . XXIX . PRINCIPLE . 29 No Christian can be obliged , vnder any pretence of Infallibility , to belieue any thing as a matter of Faith , but what was reuealed by God himselfe in that Book wherein he belieues his will to be contained ; and consequently is bound to reject whatsoeuer is offered to be imposed vpon his Faith , which hath no fundation in scripture , or is contrary thereto : Which rejection is no making NEGATIVE ARTICLES OF FAITH , but only applying the generall grounds of Faith to particular instances , as , I belieue nothing necessary to saluation but what is contained in scripeure ; Therefore no such particular things , which neither are there , nor can be deduced thence . 1. Here first obserue , That what no Christian is obliged to belieue vnder any pretence of Church-Infallibility , he is ( much rather ) not obliged to belieue vnder any pretence of Church - Authority : And that the Doctors freeing the Churches subjects here from the former , doth so from the later . It concerns therefore his superiors to look to it whether their Churches and their owne Authority suffers no detriment particularly from this Principle , I mean , so as it can be applied to priuate mens practice . 2. Next obserue , That the Expression ( What is reuealed by God , &c. ) as it is applicable to persons , must either mean , What such person only thinks , belieues , or is perswaded to be reuealed &c. or , what such person certainly knows to be reuealed : And the same may be sayd of the later expressions ( what hath no foundation What is contrary . ) Now as either of these two Additions are made , a great alteration is made in the Principle , and what in the one Addition is true , in the other may be false . As for example when a culpable Ignorance belieues something that is enjoyned by this Authority not to be reuealed in Gods Word , which indeed is so , and so rejects it , here such act is not justifiable . Very necessary therefore it seems here to make an exact distinction , that if the Doctor means it here of the one , viz. certain Knowledge , it may not be misapplyed by any to the other , namely , a belief or full perswasion . For so , men set once vpon examining well in such high mysteries their owne Certainty , will , I conceiue , neuer find just cause to reject what this Church-Authority , to which they owe obedience , recommends to them vpon Her Certainty . But to take Expressions as they lye . For the first Part of this Principle , thus much is granted , That no Christian can be obliged , vnder any pretence of Infallibility , to belieue any thing as a matter of Faith , but what is reuealed by God himselfe in his Word , Written or Vnwritten , both which the Doctor else where allowes to be of the same Value , so it be euident they are his Word . Where I adde vnwritten because though it is granted before , on Principle 14. that the Word written , or Book of scriptures contains all those Points of Faith that are simply necessary to be of all persons belieued for attaining saluation ; Yet some Articles of a Christians Faith there may be that are not there contained , which may be also securely preserued in the Church by Ecclesiasticall Tradition , both Written and Vnwritten , deriued at first from the Apostolicall ; as for example , this by Protestants confessed , That these Bookes of scripture are the Word of God. I say thus much is granted . For no Church-Infallibility is now pretended , but only in declaring what this Word of God deliuers , requireth , authorizeth ; and a Catholicks whole Faith is grounded on Diuine Reuelation : And , where such pretended Infallible Church-Authority enjoyns any thing to be belieued meerly as lawfull , it grounds it selfe on this Word of God , for the lawfulness of it . The Consequence also is granted , viz. That a Christian is bound to reject whatsoeuer is offred to be imposed vpon his Faith , which hath no foundation in scripture , or Gods Word , as before explained ; or is contrary thereto , ( that is , which is certainly known to such Christian to be so ) there being no matter of Faith enjoyned by such Authority , but what is pretended to be so founded . But then , such Christian , where not infallibly certain against it , ought to submit to the judgment of this Authority for the Knowing what things are reuealed in this Word , and what are contrary to , or not founded in it , and ( to vse the Doctors Expression ) to be guided by the sense of Scripture , as it is interpreted by this Authority . Else a mistaken and culpably ignorant belief herein , will no way justify his disobedience . No more then the Socinians contrary belief justifies him against the Decrees of the Church in those Points which yet he belieues not to be founded in Gods word , and rejects as contrary . And the Doctor els-where to express and curb such extrauagant and capricious beliefs , is glad to call in , for the interpreting of Scripture to them , the concurrant sense of the Primitiue Church , the common Reason of Mankind ( that supposeth Scripture the Rule of Faith ) the consent of Wise and learned men . And on their side who disbelieue this Authority , he calls for no less then Demonstration ; and this not some improbable Argument miscalled so , but which being proposed to any man and vnderstood , the mind cannot choose but inwardly assent thereto , that is , that euery reasonable man vnderstanding the terms , assents to . ( But how this , and seuerall other things which haue fallen some times from the Doctors pen , do consist with these Principles , and some other Tenēts of his ; Or how the true sense of Scripture in all Necessaries , is so clear and intelligible to euery sincere endeauourer as that he hath such Demonstration , for it , as that no rationall man hearing it , can dissent from it , I cannot vndertake to giue a Satisfactory account . Mean while , such Protestants as perhaps may cast their eyes on these Papers , may do well to consider , whether vpon such a Demonstratiue Certainty in the Points controuerted as this , it is that they oppose Church-Authority , teaching them otherwise . Likwise , the Common Reason of MankindChristian , the Common consent of Wise and learned men named by him before , what are they indeed , but , where all are not vnited in the same judgment , the most common Suffrage and testimony of the present Vniversall Church ; whom also we ought sooner to credit then any other , touching what is the concurrent testimony of the Primitiue Church , in case this suffers any debate . And if , as he says , Particular persons are not to depart from this judgment of Authority till they haue Demonstration , that is , their own certainty and Infallibility , as to such Point , to shew against it ; then we need not seek for our Lords Patent of the Churches Infallibility for their , or our submission to it , tell the Opposers of its judgment , for the Points they dissent in , produce theirs . Here then we see the Doctor getts as near to an Internall Infallible , or at least Authenticall Proponent , as his cause and interest will permitt him : Hoping by his requiring Demonstration , and introducing Common Reason , and Wise and learned men , and Primitiue Church , to shake his hands of so many Sectarists , who molest his owne Churches peace vpon the account of this his Proposition , or something like it , viz. that no Christian is bound , vnder what euer pretence of Church Authority , to belieue that which is not reuealed in Gods Word ; and is bound to reject what euer is offred to be impos'd vpon his Faith , that is contrary , or hath no ground in Gods Word , &c. And you must lett them judg of both these . For the last part of this 29. Principle ( That such Rejection is no making Negative Articles of Faith ) I grant , that a rejecting of the imposition of a Belief of such a Positiue Point , or the refusing to admitt it as an Article of their Faith ( which may be done whilst they eyther suspend their judgment concerning it , or also acknowledg the truth of it , supposed no Diuine Reuelation ) if this were all the Protestants do , is not therefore making the Negatiue of it an Article of their Faith. But mean while , the rejecting any such Positiue from their Faith , as not only vntrue , but contrary to the Scripture , is making or declaring the Negatiue of it an Article of their Faith ; because it makes this Negatiue a thing reuealed in Scripture , and so a matter of Faith , ( though I do not say , an Article necessary to Saluation . ) And therefore perhaps it was , that the Doctor in the Reason he annexeth ( That they only apply the Generall grounds of Faith to particular instances , &c. ) mentions indeed such Positiues as are neyther in , nor may be deduced from the Scripture , but warily omitts such as are pretended contrary to Scripture . Now that Protestants declare many of these Positiues they reject , contrary to Scripture ; See for Purgatory , Adoration of Images , Inuocation of Saints , Indulgences , in the Article of the Church of England 22. For Works of Supererogation Art. 14. For Publick Prayer or Ministery of the Sacraments in a Tongue not vnderstood by the people Art. 24. Sacrifice of the Mass. Art. 31. Transubstantiation . Art , 28. And to this Belief of the Negatiues of them as contained in Scripture , all the Members of the Church of England , or at least the Clergy , seem to be by their Canons as strictly obliged ( though some of their Diuines appear not well satisfied with it ) vnder these terms , To allow and acknowledg all the Articles ( and so these fore-cited , ) agreable to Gods Word . To declare their vnfeigned assent to them : and this for establishing Vnity of Opinion and consent , as those of the Roman Church are obliged to the Positiues : who are no such way obliged by that Church to such a necessary Belief of all her Positiues , as that a Person nescient of them cannot be saued , or that the explicit knowledg of them is necessary ( though always in some measure beneficiall it is ) to Saluation . But this indeed is necessary to Saluation , that any Subject of the Church knowing them to be determined by her , obey her Definitions , and not reject or dissent from them : Such Disobedience being conceaued a breach of Gods Command . And from this ( if I may be indulged to trangress a little ) an Answer may be giuen to that Quaere of the Doctors in his Book Roman Idolatry . p. 52. which he says he could not hitherto procure from Catholiks , though he hath often requested it , viz. Why the belieuing of all the Ancient Creeds , and leading a good life may not be sufficient to Saluation , vnless one be of the Communion of the Church of Rome ? Where if he will allow me here , for auoyding by disputes , to change these Words ( Communion of the Church of Rome ) into ( the Communion of the Roman Catholick Church ; and 2. will giue me leaue to vnderstand a good life here , restrained to all other duties of a Christian , saue those which respect this Communion , else if a good life be generally taken , the Doctors supposition must not be allowed : ) Then I answer , That such Belieuing and Leading such a life , cannot be sufficient for Saluation , to so many persons as persist , without repentance , eyther in a wilfull ignorance of their Obligation to liue in this Communion , or knowing this Obligation , persist in a wilfull neglect to re-vnite themselus to it . Because all such persons liue in a mortall sin , viz. Disobedience to , and a willfull Separation from their lawfull and Canonicall Ecclesiasticall Superiors , whom our Lord hath sett ouer them . And this sin vnrepented of , destroys Saluation , being the same so heauily condemned by our Sauiour ( Si non audierit Ecclesiam . ) Now that vnrepented of it is , we haue reason to fear , so long as they hauing opportunity , either neglect to inform their judgment , or this being conuinc'd , to reform and rectify their practise . And this seems a judged Case in the Donatist ( who pretended some such thing for their security ) if we will admitt S. Augustins sentiment of it : for thus he directs his speech to them ? Nobiscum estis in Baptismo , &c. that is , You are with vs in Baptism , you are with vs in the Symbol , or Creed , you are with vs in the rest of our Lords Sacraments ( and I may safely add with regard to some of them at least , You are with vs in a good life , with the former exception ) But in the Spirit of Vnity and bound of peace , and lastly , In the Catholick Church you are not with vs : And so he leaues them to the punishment due to those who are out of it , and separated from Christ its head . To conclude , I ask this Counter-Question concerning a Christian liuing , for example , In the Fift Age of the Church , Why the belieuing of the Apostles Creed ( as those of the first Age did ) and leading a good life , may not be sufficient for Salvation to such a one , vnless he continue in the Communion of his lawfull Ecclesiasticall Superiors of his owne Age , requiring of him vnder Anathema , or penalty of damnation the belief not only of the Symbol of the Apostles , but of all the Articles of the Athanasian Creed ( as in the beginning and Conclusion of that Creed it is clear they did ▪ Here , what Answer the Doctor shall make to this Question ( supposing he will not justify such Separatist ) I cannot imagin but it must fitt his own . Here therefore such a Christians business for knowing whether he stands safe as to his Faith and Life in order to Saluation , seems to be , That he seriously examin , Whether those whose Communion he rejects , are the true Legall Ecclesiasticall Superiors who are sett ouer him by our Lord , and to whom he is enjoyned Obedience , and with whom he ought to liue ( to vse S. Augustins words ) in the Spirit of Vnity and bound of peace . XXX . PRINCIPLE . 30. There can be no better way to preuent mens mistakes in the sense of Scripture ( which men being fallible are subject to ) then the considering the consequence of mistaking in a matter wherein their Saluation is concerned : And there can be no sufficient reason giuen why that may not serue in matters of Faith which God himself hath made vse of as the means to keep men from sin in their liues : vnless any jmagin , that errors in Opinion are farr more dangerous to mens souls , then a vicious life is , and therefore God is bound to take more care to preuent the one then the other . Whereas the Doctor says , That the best way to preuent mens mistakes in the sence of Scripture is the considering the consequence of erring in a matter wherein their Saluation is concerned : Our dayly sad Experience shews , that though our seeing or considering the dangerous consequence of a mistake affords vs , how good soeuer , yet no certain way to preuent it ; but our being directed by an Infallible Externall Guide , certainly doth . And the consideration of such Consequence , should hasten euery one to prouide this only certain Remedy , I mean , in committing himself in such matters of Faith as are much disputed , to the Guidance of men more studied and experienced in the Diuine Laws ; and that are also sett ouer him by our Lord for this very thing to instruct him in them . Where in case these Guides shall disagree , yet euery Christian may easily know whose judgments among them he ought to follow : namely , always of that Church-Authority that is the Superior , which in most cases is indisputable ; This Ecclesiasticall Body being placed by the Diuine Prouidence in an exact Subordination . As here in England it is not doubted whether we are to pay our Obedience rather to a Nationall Synod then to a Diocesan ; to the Arch-Bishop or Primat , then to an Ordinary Bishop or Presbiter ; And then , He who hath some experience in Church affairs , if willing to take such a course , cannot but discern what way the Major part of Christendom , and its Higher and more comprehensiue Councills that haue hitherto been , do guide him . And the more simple and ignorant , who so can come to know nothing better , ought to follow their example . As touching the following Clause in this Principle , That the same means may serue to keep men from Error in matters of Faith , as is vsed by God to keep men from Sin in their liues . Hereto I add , That here God hath taken care by the same Church-Authority to preserue his Church in Truth , and to restrain it from Sin : giuing them an equall Commission to teach the ignorant , and to correct the Vicious . And since their Doctrine directs our manners as well as Faith , their infallibility is as necessary for things of practise , as of speculation . Error in Opinion also may be such , as may be much more dangerous to vs , then for the present a vicious life , supposing our persistance in a right Faith ; because we haue our Conscience still left vncorrupted to reclame vs in the later , but not so in the former : And there is more hopes of his recouery , who as yet doth ill with a relucting judgment . Some erroneous Opinions or other also are the ordinary sources and springs of euill practises ; and the Doctor cannot but acknowledg this , who hath spent a considerable part of the Book , to which he hath annexed these Principles , vpon pretending to shew , how Roman Errors do induce an euill life , and destroy Deuotion . III. The Doctors Consequences , examined . I. CONSEQUENCE . 1. There is no necessity at all , or vse of an Infallible Society of men to assure men of the truth of those things of which they may be certain without , and cannot haue any greater assurance , supposing such Infallibility to be in them . 1. This Consequence here is voyded , because the Supposition , if applied to Diuine Reuelations and matters of Faith , in the former Principles is not prooued . 2. But if the whole were granted , This concludes the vselesness as well of any Ecclesiasticall Authority to teach men , as of an Infallible , to assure men of the truth of those things , which , by vsing only their owne sincere endeauour ( according to the Doctors pretence , Principle 13. ) they may know without them . II. CONSEQUENCE . 2. The Infallibility of that Society of men who call themseleus the Catholick Church , must be examined by the same Faculties in man , the same Rules of tryall , the same Motiues by which the Infallibility of any Diuine reuelation is . This Consequence , couched only in generall terms , is granted in the same manner as the 6. Principle is , changing ( must ) here into ( may . ) But then of many things examined and discouered by the same way or means , some are much more easily by euery one examined and discouered then some others , as the Euidence for them in this means are greater . So Holy Scriptures belieued such from Vniuersall Tradition , may be much clearer in some Articles of our Faith , then in others : And some Diuine Reuelations may be so obscurely expressed there , or inuolued only in their Principles , as that some weak capacities cannot discern them , which yet in the same Scriptures may discouer the Authority of the Church and its promised Diuine Assistance and Infallibility in necessaries , and so from thence learn those other . Of which Church and its Infallibility clear in Scriptures , for all necessaries , and for deciding other Points more obscure therein , thus writes S. Augustin in his Dispute with the Donatists concerning the obscure Point of Rebaptization : Quoniam sacra Scriptura fallere non potest , &c. Since the Holy Scripture cannot deceiue ( vs ) let whosoeuer is in fear of being deceiued by the obscurity of this Question , consult the same Church about it , which Church the Holy Scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate . And before , Earumdem Scripturarum etiam in hac re a nobis tenetur veritas , cum , &c. That is , The truth of the Holy Scriptures is held by vs in this matter ( or Point of Rebaptization ) when we do that which has pleased the Vniuersall Church , ( that is which had been stated concerning that Point by the Church ) which the Authority of the Scriptures themselues does commend ; that since , &c. Thus writes S. Augustin . All which is false and sayd to no purpose , if the Scripture be not clear in this , That this Church can determine nothing in such important Contests contrary to the verity of the Scriptures , and that we ought to giue credit to what he decides ; for then it would not be true what he says , The truth of the same Scriptures in this matter is held by vs : and , He who is in fear to be deceiued by the obscurity of this Question , is no way relieued in following the sentence of the Church . Now if it be further asked , Amongst those seuerall Modern opposit Communions , which do equally inuite men into their Society by the Name of the Church , Which of them is so Diuinely attested ; there are beside the Description made of it in Scripture , not applicable to other pretended Churches , and frequently vrged by the same Father against the Donatists , There are , I say , sufficiently certain rationall Euidences and Marks thereof left to Christians , whereby the sober Enquirer after it , cannot be mistaken . I mean not here those Marks of the true Church ( though true Marks also ) the quest of which men are sett vpon by Protestants , viz. True Doctrine , and a right administration of the Sacraments , A Quest or Tryall that can neuer be made an end of , being a task to know all the Truths in Christianity first , before we can know the Church : When as the Enquirer seeks after the Church , which as S. Augustin sayth , the Scripture demonstrates , that by it he may come to know the Truths . But I mean those other Marks mention'd by S. Augustin in the Book he wrote of the Benefit of belieuing the Church , viz. Sequentium multitudo , &c. The multitude of her followers , the Consent of Nations , her Antiquity , &c. Which Church hath descended ( visibly ) from Christ himself by his Apostles vnto vs , and from vs will descend to posterity , &c. And which by the Confession of Mankind from the Apostolick See by succession of Bishops hath obtained the supreme top of Authority , whilst Hereticks on all sides barked against her in vain , and were still condemned partly by the judgment euen of the common people , partly by the ( venerable ) grauity of Councills , and partly also by the Majesty of Miracles , ( that is , by Miracles done in this Church after the Apostles times ; of seuerall of which , S. Augustin himself was an eye-witness , and of some an instrument . The same Father repeats much-what the same in another Book of his , De Vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatists , a Sect in Africk . Non est obscura Quaestio , &c. It is no obscure Question , says he , ( viz. which is the true Church ) in which those may deceiue you , who according to our Lords prediction shall come and say , Behold here is Christ , behold he is there , behold he is in the Desart , as in a place where the multitude is not great . ( The time was , when the Reformation were constrained to vse the like phrases , and also to apply to themselues that Text , Fear not little Flock ) But you haue a Church ( described in in the Scripture ) to be spredd through all Regions , and to grow still ( in Conuersion of Nations ) till the haruest : You haue a City concerning which he that was the Founder of it , sayd , A City built on a Hill cannot be hid . This is the Church therefore , not in some corner of the earth ; but euery where most known . Now I hope none will think fitt to apply these Scriptures more to S. Augustins time then to any other , or to the present : For , by the same reason , the Donatists might here haue counter-applied them to some other , and not to S. Augustins times . Much what the same is iterated again by this Father ( and three Testimonies , I hope , will establish this matter ) where he tells the Manicheans what retained him in the bosome of that Church from which they stood separated , Vt omittam Sapientiam , &c. that is , That I may omitt that Wisdome , ( viz. the Mark of true Doctrine ) which you do not belieue to be in the Catholick Church ; there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosome . The consent of peoples and Nations keeps me there . Authority begun by Miracles , confirmed by Antiquity keeps me there . The Succession of Pastors , from the Seat it self of S. Peter ( to whom our Lord after his Resurrection recommended his Sheep to be fedd by him ) vnto the present Bishop , keeps me there . And lastly , the very Name of Catholick heeps me there , &c. Here are S. Augustins Marks to find our the Church from which men were to learn the Truth , whilst proposed to seuerall persons and Sects , always the same . And these are the Euidences in Tradition , and in those other commonly call'd Motiues of Credibility , which in themselues seeme not justly questionable , that will afford a sufficient Certainty to euery Sober Enquirer , whereby he may try and discern that present Church , to which now also , if in S. Augustins time , Christ affords a testimony : and which lyeth not in Corners , nor starts vp after some Ages , and vanishes again , but is fixed ab Apostolica Sede per successiones Episcoporum ; a City sett on a Hill in the most extended Vnity of an Externall Communion , which no other Christian Society can equall ; a Candle on a Candlestick ; a Perpetuall , erected , Visible Pillar and Monument of Truth , frustra Haereticis circumlatrantibus . Where also according to the disparity of seuerall mens capacities , I suppose nothing more necessary then that this Euidence receiued eyther from all , or only some of these Notes ( to those who haue not ability to examin others ) be such as that it out-weigh any arguments mouing him to the contrary ; and the like Euidence to which is thought sufficient to determin vs in other Elections . And then this Church thus being found , he may be resolued by it concerning the Sence of other Diuine Reuelations more dubious , and generally all other Scrupules in Religion : to witt , so farr as this Church from time to time seeth a necessity of such Resolution , and the Diuine Reuelation therein is to her sufficiently clear ; only if such person , not spending so much of his own judgment , will afford , instead of it , a little more of his Obedience . III. CONSEQUENCE . 3. The less conuincing the Miracles , the more doubtfull the Marks , the more obscure the Sence of eyther what is called the Catholick Church , or declared by it , the less reason hath any Christian to belieue vpon the account of any who call themselues by the name of the Catholick Church . All this is true , vpon supposition that matters stand as the Doctor would pretend : but such supposition being groundless , he must giue me leaue to inuert his Consequence , and say : The more conuincing the Miracles ( if any credit for these may be giuen to Church-History ) the more euident the Marks ( euen now giuen by S. Augustin and modern Catholick Writers ; ) the more clear and manifest ( euen to simple persons , who with much difficulty in seuerall places comprehend the Sense of controuerted Scripture ) is the Catholick Church , ( whose Representatiue are the subordinate Councills , and whose Gouernors the seuerall Degrees of the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy , ascending to the Prime See of S. Peter ; ) and the more clear also the Points declared by it , ( viz. in these Councills , whose Decrees ( suppose that of Trent ) if questioned for their Truth , are not for their perspicuity , and particularly in the Points of Controuersy they assembled to determin between Protestants and Catholicks ; ) the more reason hath any Christian to belieue vpon the account of those who call themselues by the Name , and challenge the High Priuiledges ( which no other Separated Socityes of Christians do ) of the Catholick Church . IV. CONSEQUENCE . 4. The more absurd any Opinions are , and repugnant to the first Principles of Sense and Reason which any Church obtrudes vpon the Faith of men ; the greater reason men still haue to reject the pretence of Infallibility in that Church , as a grand Imposture . The Higher any Points of Faith be , and the more remote from Sense and naturall Reason , or , not comprehensiue by them , which such Church as is named before , ( and in the highest capacity of it , Generall Councils ) proposeth to the Faith of Christians , the more noble exercise they haue of their Faith , whilst they haue an abundant certainty also that such Leaders can misguide them in nothing necessary to Saluation . And no reason haue they , vpon such improbabilities or contradictions to Sense or naturall Reason , to suspect or be jealous of the Churches Infallibility as an Imposture ; which Church they see , through what euer obstacles , faithfully adheres to the Diuine Oracles , how incredible soeuer to Nature ; and may be thought , because it seems not swayed or hindred by these at all , to vse more integrity in her judgment , and fidelity to the Diuine Reuelations . Yet this is not sayd , as if the judgment of our Sences , appointed by God the Instruments ( by hearing or reading them ) of conueying Faith and his Diuine Reuelations to vs , affords not a sufficient Naturall Certainty or Infallibility , whereon to ground our belief in all those things subject to our Senses , wherein the Diuine Power doth not interpose : But only . 1. That where the Diuine Power worketh any thing Supernaturally , that is , contrary to our Senses , ( as it may no doubt ) here we are not to belieue them : And this , I think , none can deny : 2. And next , That we are to belieue this Diuine Power doth so , so often as Certain Diuine Reuelation tells vs so , Though by the same senses if tells us so , we belieuing our Senses , that it tells vs so , when we do not belieue the same Senses for the thing which is contrary to what it tells vs ; The truth of which Diuine Reuelation we are to learn from Gods Church , infallibly assisted in necessary Faith. For otherwise Lot and his Daughters were not to credit the Diuine Reuelation ( supposing that Diuine History then written and extant ) that the seeming Men who came to Sodome were Angells , because this was against their Senses . Now here , would he argue well , who because Lots sight was actually deceiued vpon this Supernaturall accident , in taking the Angells to be Men , as certainly it was , from hence would inferr , that the Apostles had no sufficiēt Certainty or ground , from their seeing our Lord , to belieue him risen from the Dead ? Or that no Belief could euer be certainly grounded vpon our Senses ? Nor that Christians haue any certain Foundation of their Faith ? For a Naturall or Morall Certainty , though such as is per potentiam Diuinam fallible and errable , and is to be belieued to err where euer we haue Diuine Reuelation for it , not else , I say , a Certainty ( though not such an one as cannot possibly be false , but which according to the Laws of Nature and the common manners and experience of men is not false ) is sufficient on which to ground such a Faith as God requires of vs , in respect of that Certainty which can be deriued from humane Sense or Reason , and which serues for an Introductiue to the relyance of this our Faith vpon such Reuelation as is belieued by vs Diuine ; and which if Diuine , we know is not possibly fallible ; In respect of its relying on which Reuelation , an infallible Object , and not for an Infallible Certainty , as to the Subject , it is , that this our Faith is denominated a Diuine Faith. Now this Naturall or Morall Certainty , is thought sufficient for the first Rationall Introductiue and security of our Faith , not only by the Doctor in his 27. Principle , but also by Catholick Diuines in their Discourses of the Prudentiall Motiues . V. CONSEQUENCE . 5. To disown what is taught by such a Church , is not to question the Veracity of God , but so firmly to adhere to that , in what he hath reuealed in Scriptures , that men dare not , out of loue to their souls , reject what is so taught . To disown what is taught by such a Church , as we have here represented it , will be to desert what God hath reuealed in the Scriptures ; the true meaning of which Reuelations , when controuerted , we are to receiue from it . And so men ought not , out of loue to their souls , reject what is so taught . VI. CONSEQVENCE . 6. Though nothing were to be belieued as the Will of God , but what is by the Catholick Church declared to be so : Yet this doth not at all concerne the Church of Rome , which neyther is the Catholick Church , nor any sound part or member of it . This may suffice to shew the validity of the Principles on which the Faith of Protestants stands , and the weakness of those of the Church of Rome . From all which it follows , that it can be nothing but willfull Ignorance , weakness of judgment , Strength of prejudice , or some sinfull passion , which makes any one forsake the Communion of the Church of England , to embrace that of the Church of Rome . If nothing is to be belieued as the Will of God , but what is by the Catholick Church declared to be so : and the Declarations of the Catholick Church be taken from her Councills ; and , in Concills dissenting , from the more Vniuersall and Generall , ( the constant way of the Churches Judgment , ) this Church Catholick , as to such Councills and Courts Ecclesiasticall hath neuer been seuered from the Roman and S. Peters Chair . And this may suffice to shew the weakness of those Principles on which the Faith of Protestants stands , and the Validity of those of the Church of Rome . From which it follows , that if there be no willfull Ignorance , nor sinfull Passion , nor strength of prejudice and secular interest in our Countreymen , Yet it must be at least much neglect of examining things which most concerne them , and diuerting their thoughts vpon other employments , or conuersing with such Authors and Teachers as confirm to them those Opinions in which they were educated , and the like , that detains them still in a Communion diuided , and this not very long since , from the Catholick . As to the Doctors imputing only to Ignorance , sinfull Passion , &c. that any forsake the Communion of the Church of England : It is plain that his former Principles do no more support the Religion of the Church of England , then of any other Protestants Sect condemned by it : All which Sects for the Doctrines they hold , and Controuersies they maintain with others , equally appeal to the Clearness of the Infallible Scriptures , sufficiently intelligible vnto their sincere endeauours , and decline , as fallible , all other Ecclesiasticall Authority . So Wolketius for the Socinians ( as the Doctor for the Church of England ) sayth , Quae de Fide , &c. Those things which are to be established touching Faith in Christ , are manifest in the Scriptures . And Again , Deus qui Religionem Christianam , &c. God hauing determined that Christian Religion shall continue till the end of the world , has taken care that there should be always extant such a Mean by which it may be certainly known , as farr as is necessary to Saluation , But no such Mean is extant , except the Holy Scriptures . To the same purpose Crellius another Socinian , says , Hac sententia , &c. This Doctrin ( by which Christs Diuinity is denyed ) is supported by very many , and the most euident , Testimonies of Holy Scriptures . It is needless to cite more . From whence is manifest , That such Principles as here appear only in the Defence of the Religion established in the Church of England , make the same Apology for all those other Protestant parties , and most blasphemous Sects , disclaimed by it : the Doctor in the mean while omitting that by which the former Learned Defenders of his Church vsually haue justified it against them , namely , the Church of Englands adhering to the Traditionall Exposition and Sense of Scripture receiued from the Primitiue Church : This , I say , he omitted , perhaps because it may be thought to relish a little of Church-Infallibility . Neyther do the Principles here layd down , afford any effectuall way or means in this Church of suppressing or conuicting any Schism , Sect , or Heresy , or reducing them eyther to submission of Judgment , or Silence . For where both sides contend Scripture clear for themselues ; the Clearness of such Scripture , how great soeuer on one side , can be made no Instrument of Conuiction to the other . Here therefore all things must be prosecuted further then Scripture , to a ( Dic Ecclesiae ) Tell the Church : and so to a ( Si autem Ecclesiam non audierit ) But if he will not hear the Church , let him be to thee as a Heathen and Publican . If then it is the Churches Authority that must rectify such diuersity of Opinions , one would think that this ought to haue been first established , instead of leauing euery Fancy to perspicuity of Scripture for the attaining Vnity and Peace in the Points controuerted . And the prudent may consider , Whether the Authority of the Church of England is not much debilitated and brought into contempt , and dayly like to wane more and more by this new-taken-vp way of its Defence ; Where he thinks himself it's best Aduocat and Defender of its Cause , who doth most endeauour to sett forth the Defects and faylings of all such Ecclesiasticall Societies , Prelats , and Councills , and best proues no Scripture-Promises made to them . Nay where , to the end to euacuate the Infallibility of any Society or Church in necessaries , is set vp a Counter-Lay-Infallibility of priuate men , if only sincere Endeauourers of Vnderstanding Holy Writt , in all the same Necessaries . This is done , which causeth still more Sects , instead of that which , if done , would cure them , namely , The Recommending ( especially to the illiterate and less intelligent common sort of people ) Humility , Obedience , Submission of judgment to their Spirituall Pastors and Gouernors , whom our Lord hath ordained by due Succession to continue to the end of the world on purpose to expound the Scriptures , and out of these to teach them all Necessaries for their Saluation , and to heep them stable and fixed from being tossed to and fro with euery wind of Doctrin , that Capricious Fancies may imagin there , or malicious pretend : Informing them , that they are to learn of these Pastors , the true Sense of Gods Word according to former Church-Tradition , to follow their Faith and to rest in their Iudgment . Lastly , not to vsurp their Office , and become their owne Guides : inasmuch as the same Diuine order that appoints the others to Guide , enjoyns them to be Guided . And supposing these Guides should err too ; better it is that all err one Error , which is the Error of their Guides , for there will be at least some Vnity and Peace in that , some Excuse for Inferiors ; yea also , in probability more verisimilitude ; then that euery one should err a seuerall , and his own , Error , to the vtter ruine uf Peace , and a greater deuiation from Truth . But whilst these things are so little spoken of , it is no great wonder if vnder the protection of such contrary Maximes spread abroad , which were first made more current and common by M r Chillingworth ( forced to it as the last Refuge left to shelter him from Obedience to a just Church-Authority ) the Broachers of New Sects and extrauagant Fancies in Religion , the Contemners of Church-Authority and of the Clergy , ( who first contemned and vilified themselues ) do dayly in these parts so exceedingly multiply and encrease ) Sed tu , pastor bone , reduc in ouile tuum istas oues perditas , vt audiant vocem tuam : & sic fiat vnum ouile & vnus Pastor . Amen . ERRATA . PRef p , 6. l. 1. his . l. his . l. 2. must . l. much . l. 20. d. not . P. 35. l. 31. te . l. be . p. 48. l. 23. incnrs . l. incurs . p. 78. by disputes . l. by-disputes . P. 81. l. 12. consideration . l. consid . P. 99. l. 29. heep . l. keep . P. 100. l. 14. uf . l. of . COurteous Reader , Because the necessity of making use of a forreign Press hath so multipled the Errata of this small Piece either in Words , or Pointing , as to render several places of it hardly intelligible , You are desired to amend with your Pen , at least , those grosser faults that are distinguished here with a Star ; and , where else the sense may seem obscure , to repair to this Table . PREFACE . Pag. 21. Marg. read See p. 69. * Ibid. l. 6. r. cannot think Ibid. l. 9. r. be a p. 4. l. 11. r. and unmoveable p. 6. l. 2. r. much BOOK . Pag. 1. l. 2. r. Principles , Giving p , 2. l. 11. Marg. § . 1. p. 4. l. 6. Marg. § . 2. p. 6. l. 10. Marg. § . 3. * l. 17. r. and all l. 25. r. controverted p. 7. l. 13. r. or Society l. 22. Marg. § . 4. * p. 9. l. 23. Marg. § . 5. p. 11. l. 24. Marg. Deut. 17. 8. 2 Chron. 19. 10. p. 15. l. 28. r. Christian p. 18. l. 20. Marg. Tillots . Rule of faith p. 113. Ibid. l. 27. Marg. dele Tillots . p. 113. p. 20. l. 30 dele , ) * l. 31. r. sense ) * p. 21. l. 6. r. repentance of it , l. 19. r. present much major part of Christianity , professeth l. 20. r. this Scripture * p. 23. l. 13. r. or p. 25. l. 9. r. Iudgments . 2 Chr. 19. 10. * p. 32. l. 21. r. any can * p. 33. l. 6. r. taken in her sense * l. 10. r. Catholick Church l. 11. r. [ that is , in l. 13. r. page , ] l. 18. r. salvation , And , * l. 31. r. ( Therefore such p. 35. l. 32. r. be * p. 36. l. 13. r. infallible [ the Infallibility in question . ] Surely , l. 15. r. Fundamentals , & Marg. See Rat. * l. 26. r. not as liable p. 38. l. 2. r. necessary , The * p. 39. l. 16 r. too , these Successors p. 40. l. 10. r. And the Protestant's allowing l. 28. rendring such their p. 41. l. 4. r. Account ) * l. 9. Marg. r. Ibid. p. 512. p. 42. l. 16. r. Scripture , l. 23. Marg. r. Matt. 18. 17. p. 45. l. 9. r. in some matters * l. 12. r. Council , but are not as yet stated such by any clear Decision p. 48. l. 2. r. Guide : their l. 16. r. are not , if p. 51. l. 8. r. infallibly certain * p. 55. l. 17. r. matter at all * p. 56. l. 20. r. Revelation , as to the * p. 57. l. 4. dele , their l. 13. r. Consideration * p. 58. l. 7. r. established there , to * p. 68. l. 24. r. As for the other , the Protestants , * p. 70. l. 4. r. as , because I p. 73. l. 13. r. so ) : there * l. 21. Marg. See before § . 27. * l. 28. r. contrary to it p. 74. l. 20. dele , that * p. 75. l. 15. r. External p. 77. l. 4. dele , in the * l. 30. r. when knowing * p. 78. l. 1. r. digress l. 2. r. Book of l. 13. r. Church ] l. 16. r. ( else p. 79. l. 18. r. and so separated p. 80. l. 13. r. bond of peace . * p. 81. l. 6. dele , though * p. 86. l. 6. r. she decides * p. 86. l. 11. See below * l. ult . r. know these Truths p. 87. l. 12. r. have barked * l. 29. r. as if in p. 89. l. 3. r. Evidences , in * l. 22. r. more to be necessary * p. 96. l. 23. r. conversing only with p. 97. l. 6. r. Protestant Sect l. 17. r. Volkelius Marg. r. uno Deo * p. 98. l. 13. r. omitteth p. 100. l. 3. r. Iudgement ; Lastly l. 28. r. increase . Sed * P. 86. l. 11. After the Church , r. Nor had St. Augustin any reason to presume ( as he doth ib. c. 4. ) that St. Cyprian would have corrected his Opinion concerning this Point ; or to charge the Donatists with Heresie for dissenting from it , after the Determination of such a Council : Nor had the Second General Council any just ground to put it in the Creed [ Credo unum Baptisma in Remissionem peccatorum ] if such Universal Councils in their Stating Matters of Faith , are errable and amendable . ERRATA In the Discourse concerning Devotion : ( those of mis-pointing being mostwhat omitted . ) The principal Errata ( noted with a Star ) the Reader is desired to Correct with his Pen. Pages . line 21. marg . read 8. 26. p 6 l. 27 r. became a * p 9 l. 24 r. long-continued * p 10 l. 10 r. thus * l. 16 r. thus * l. 22 r. 2. It p 11 l. 9 r. abscondi p 13 l. 24. marg . r. Act. 16. 6 , 7 , 9. - 20. 22 , 23. - 8. 19. - 19. 21. 1 Tim. 1. 18 - 4 14. - p 15 l. 17. r. Hysterical — p 18 l. 25 r. this inhabitation p 19 l 5 r. And , Phil. 3. p 21 l. 2. r Where , * after p 24. ●l . 20. marg . r. S. Thom. 1. Q. 1 Art. 8. l. penult . r. 5. But there p 25 l 22 r. Spirit , pretends p 26 l. 21 r. ( See l. 22 r. 2. 6. ) p 28 l. 2 r. sin , especially * p 29 l. 30 r. those * p 30 l. 25 r. and it , if p 31 l. 17 r. Counsels * p 32 l. 18 r. leaves us * p 34 l. 27 r. inconsiderable * p 38 l. 5 r. 6. Having * p 39 l. 26 r. also frequently return * p 40 l. 17 r. and rovings about p 41 l. 21 r. thereof . Treat 3. p 42 l. 24 r. them happen to fall p 43 l. 1 r. works in us p 45 l. 22 r. left somtimes * l. 32 r. A●olatiomentis p 46 l. 16 r. primary p 48 l 16 r. mundanis ) * p 50 l. 21 r. Si cui p 51 l. 3 r. Canting p 52 l. 31 r. meae — Suble● a us * p 53 l. 33 r. utcunque p 55 l. 13 r. peccatis * l. 21 r. quia , si l. 34 r. immerito * p 56 l. 17 r. Elsewhere , * — Fortasse ne * l. 22 r. praecesserat l. 23. r. esse l. 26 r. Sanctuarium Dei , si l. 31 r. quidem hic * p 58 l. 16 r. ellae bullienti substraxeris , p 61 l. 27 r. cogit , nec cogitur * p 62 l. 25 r. unexperienced * p 63 l. 10 r. understand * p 66 l. 21 r. as they are — ib. apprehends l. 31 r. Christi , And * p 67 l. 4 r. such persons , as l. 23 r. virtute * l. 28 r. retractation p 69 l. 22 r. Cand * p 70 l. 17 r. because , to any p 74 l. 29 r. lest I should incur his censure * p 75 l. 2 r. cited § . 13 l. 13 r. ipse * p 76 l. 25 r. lumen p 77 l. 5 r. phantasmes l. 33 r. ( for , now , p 78 l. 1 r. Contemplation ) l. 5 r. when our * l. 27 r. stamp them * l. 32 r. li●que * p 79 l. 16 r. contemplatur l. 21 r. — Sponsa l. 22 r. ipsam l. 32 r. Beginners : and p 80 l. 1 r. the other , l. 7 r. before § . 25. p 81 l. 8 marg . r. See § . 32. &c. * p 82 l. 1 r. laudable * p 83 l. 4 r. Deiforme Fund p 84 l. 3 r. 1 Cor. 13. 12. p 86 l. 13 r. by — intentions * l. 32 r. tuumque spiritum * p 95 l. 21 r. to God. * p 97 l. 12 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * l. 30 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * p 98 l. 9 r. passage of his . * p 99 l. 3. marg . r. § . 49. & 51 * p. 100. l. 20. r. gestures , * p 102 l. 28 r. ( which they * p 104 l. 28 r. before § . 14. * p 106 l. 2 r. lawfulness of which is l. 15 r. in two lawfull p 109 l. 8 r. impulses of the p 110 l. 33 r. praying for his p 111 l. 21. r. himself to de — dele , indifferent p 112. l. 7 r. before § . 20. &c. p 113 l. 15 r. those who are judged ERRATA In the Discourse concerning Repentance and Indulgences . PAge 43. line 7. read Third , the p. 48 l. 10. r. fragilitatem * page 78 l. 19. read the Calf l. 31. r. purgandum p. 83. l. 27. r. superfluas Indulgentias l. 29. r. inanes , & * p. 123. l. 14. r. to Father them . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A34966-e100 Rom. Idol . p. 557. 1. Ib p. 69. 134. &c. 142. 159. 161. 2. 3. Synod . A. D. 1603. c. 4. 5. 36. &c. Stat. 13. Elizab. c. 12. Ration . Account . P. 55. Chillingw p. 200. Notes for div A34966-e560 Principl . Confideration . 1. Princ. Consid. 2. Princ. Consid. 3. Princ. Consid. 4. Princ. Consid ▪ 5. Princ. Consid. Additional . 6. Princ ▪ Consid. 7. Princ. Consid. 8. Princ. Consid. 9. Princ. Consid. 10. Princ. 11. Princ. §. 6. Consid. 12. Princ. §. 7. Consid. 13. Princ. §. 8. Consid. §. 9. §. 10. Chilling . p. 19. §. 11. Tillots p. 113. §. 12. §. 13. Claud. in his last . Reply . l. 111. c. 13. 14. Princ. Consid. §. 14. §. 15. Field of the Church p. 377. 15. Princ. Consid ▪ §. 16 ▪ §. 17. §. 18. 2. Chron. XIX . X. Deuteron XVII . X. XI . XII . §. 19. 16. Princ. Consid. §. 20. see . Ap. Laud. p. 139. 140 compared vvith p. 160. 195 258. 346 see also Rationall Acc. p. 53 59. 537. §. 21. §. 22. §. 23. Aug. de Ciuit. Dei 22. book . 8. Chapt. §. 24. See. Rat. Account . p. 536. See Rat. Account . p. 50. 6. Ib. p. 539. §. 25. Ib. p. 59. Ib. p. 537. Ap. Lavvd , p. 227. Rat. Account . p. 535. §. 26. Ap. Lavvd . §. 37. p. 318. Ib. §. 21. p. 140. Ib. 25. n. 4 Ib. Ib. Ib. p. 258. Rational Account p. 154. p. 252. The infallibility in Question . see Ration . Account p. 58. 59. 17. Princ. Consid. §. 27. §. 28. § 29. §. 30. see Ration . Account p. 2●…5 . it . p 204. 208. 209 And the places 〈◊〉 cited out of the Archbishop . Ib. p. 108. §. 31. §. 32. Ib. p. 506. §. 34. Ib. p. 101 Deuter. 17. Math. §. 35. Hist. of the Counc . of Trent . p. 228. Roman Idolatry . p. 7 449. 453. § 36. Tillots . in Rule of Faith. p. 92. 93. 18. Princ. Consid. §. 37. Ephes. 4. 11. 13. 14 2. Peter . 3. 16. §. 38. Contra Crescon lib. 1. c. 33. §. 39. 19. Princ. Consrd . §. 40. §. 41. Prov. 3. 5. 20. Princ. Consid. §. 42. 21. Princ. Consid. §. 43. §. 44. See suarez de Fide Dispu - . 4. §. 5. n. 7. 8 9 Lugo de virtute Fidei Disp p. 1. §. 12. Vasquez . 1. 2. Disput . 120. n. 15. Esti . in 3. sent . d. 25. §. 13. south wall Analys . Fidei Disp. 3. c. 8. 22 Prine . Consid. §. 46. Resp. 1. cap. de Abusibus . Act. 〈◊〉 . l. w●rt . p. 56 Rom Idol . p. 78. &c. 23. Princ. Consid. §. 47. 24. Princ. Consid. §. 48. §. 49. Rat. Acct p. 58. 25. Princ. Consid. §. 50. 26. Princ. Consid. §. 51. 27. Princ. Consid. §. 52. 28 Princ. Consid. §. 53. Hebr. 13. 7. De Vnit. 19. Rational . Account . p. 133. 16. p. 58. Hebr. 13. 17. 29. Princ. Consid. §. 54. §. 55. §. 56. Rat. Account p. 162. 208. 210 §. 57. §. 58. § 59. Rationall . Acc. p. 539. §. 60. §. 61 ▪ See Synod 1603. Can. 36. and can . 5. Stat. 13 Eliz. c. 12 and Title of the Act. §. 62. Roman . Idol . p. 52. Aug. Ep. 48. 30. Princ. Consid. §. 63. §. 64. §. 65. 1. Conseq . Consid. §. 66. 2. Conseq . August . contra Crescon . l. 1. c. 33 Ibid. §. 67. See. Rat. Account . p. 7. Aug. cont . Epist Fundam . c. 4. Id. de Vtil . creden . c. 11. 14. 16. 17 Aug. de Ciu. D. l. xxii . c. 8. Confess . l. 9. c. 7. Possid . in vita Aug. ● . 29. Id. de Vnit. Eccle. c. 25. Idem cont . Ep. Fund . c. 4. 3. Conseq . Consid. §. 68. 4. Conseq . Consid. §. 69. §. 70. See Stilling . Roman . Idol . p. 540. It. Rat. Account p. 117. 567. Tillatson . p. 275. 5. Conseq . Consid. §. 71. 6. Conseq . Consid. §. 72. §. 73. §. 74. Volket . de vera Relig. l. 5. c. 7. Crell . l. de vno Dei Patre . in Praefat. §. 7. 
A47594	----	The general London epistle of Quirinus Kuhlman a Christian, to the Wiclef-Waldenses, Hussites, Zuinglians, Lutherans, and Calvinists being an explication of a vision and prophecy of John Kregel : wherein the reformation from popery is fundamentally asserted, and the union of Protestants convincingly urged : together with a postscript relating to the present popish plot : translated from the Latine copy printed at Rotterdam in May 1679. Epistolarum Londinensium Catholica. English Kuhlmann, Quirin, 1651-1689. 1679 Approx. 131 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 40 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A47594 Wing K754 ESTC R17471 11862163 ocm 11862163 50034 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. 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Printed for the author, London : 1679. At head of title: A-Z. Translation of Epistolarum Londinensium Catholica. Page 26 is tightly bound in filmed copy. Pages 20-35 photographed from Union Theological Seminary Library, New York, copy and inserted at end. Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Kregel, John. Popish Plot, 1678. Protestantism. 2005-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-11 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-09 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2006-09 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE GENERAL London Epistle OF QUIRINUS KUHLMAN A CHRISTIAN , To the Wiclef-Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans , and Calvinists . Being an Explication of a Vision and Prophecy OF John Kregel . Wherein the Reformation from Popery is fundamentally asserted , and the Vnion of Protestants convincingly urged : Together with a Postscript relating to the present Popish Plot. Translated from the Latine Copy , printed at Rotterdam , in May 1679. LONDON , Printed for the Author . 1679. THE PROPHECY OF John Kregel , The 12th of January 1626. Concerning the present Application of the VIALS to the STATE of the Reformed Churches . ● . ANd as the Voice spake unto me , at the same instant a very plain Church was built , which had six Steeples all of one form . And out of the Church issued forth a pleasant and clear transparent River , out of which Gods faithful ones did drink ; but some troubled the Waters before they drank . Write down what I speak unto thee , and nothing else , thus saith the Lord ; This Church is the Vine in which the Lords faithful ones do labour , whose foundation was laid in the last days , concerning which the Lord saith : and the Gospel of the Kingdom of Christ shall be preached through the whole World , for a testimony unto them , and then shall the end come . This Church is built and re-built in the last days of the World. 3. The first Steeple began to be built by the People towards the West ; in the Kingdom of England , and its Builder was John WICLEF a good Man and fearing God. 4. The second was built in a Countrey towards the East , ( Bohemia ) and the Builders of it were two men fearing God , JOHN HVS and JEROME of PRAGVE , who shed their Blood ; neither loved they their Lives unto Death : and their Followers enlarged and carried on this Building until three days were fulfilled . 5. The third Steeple was built by a People towards the West , and its Builder was VLRIC ZVINGLIVS . He enlarged the Vineyard , and the fourth day began , when the number of years from the Birth of Christ was 1505. 6. The fourth was built by a People of the North , and its Builder was MARTIN LVTHER , an experienced Man , fearing God , and very Eloquent . He built the Church , to the great wonder of many , and spread the same through Germany . 7. The Fifth Steeple again , was built by a People towards the West , and its Builder was CALVIN . He built the Church in France and the Neatherlands , in dangerous places : for as in dangerous places Men are obliged to build with great care , so was this Church built , and the Building advanced against the will of all the wicked . 8. The sixth Steeple shall be built by a People towards the East , and its Builders will be all Preachers and Teachers , fearing God , these shall begin to build this Church a-new , and re-build the same from Sea to Sea. Now as all Builders must be proved , so shall also these Teachers and Leaders be proved by the Cross and Suffering . And this Church is a-building , and shall be wholly finished the sixth and last day . For as God built Heaven and Earth in six days ; so likewise the Church of God shall be built in six days , and shall have rest the seventh day . KVHLMAN His fulfilling and Explication of the Fifth Section of the fore-going Prophecy , Written by him at Smirna in Natolia , in October 1678. THe Fourth day is one of those mentioned , Rev. 11. v. 11. in which the two Witnesses and Prophets ( viz. The Orthodox Teachers of the Old and New Scripture ) suffered Martyrdom : and they are the same with 42 Lunar Months , which makes 1176 years , thus : One day is 336 Years . Two days 672 Years . Half a day 168 Years . As the Angelical Revelation of Kotterus doth expresly declare , chap. 10 v. 34. Twelve months are one time , Four and twenty are two times , and Six are half a time : which according to the course of the Moon make Three years , and near an half more ; and so are they three days and an half . But according to longer time ( 28 years being reckoned for one month ) this one time , two times , and half a time , are thus to be numbered : One time is 336 years , two times 672 , and half a time 168 ; which being added together make 1176. In this time the Treader-down will have Power , and afterwards he shall be converted . Which things being thus laid for a Foundation , it most clearly appears , that the two Witnesses were raised to Life again in the year 1674 ; and that the 11th and 12th verses of the 11th of the Revelations are now fulfilling . And it was by impulse of the Holy Spirit ( as was before prophesied ) that my Book printed the same year at Amsterdam and Leyden , had the Title of Neu-begeistert ( New-spirited ) because in the said Writing all the Teachers of Scripture began to appear with a new Spirit and Life : Moreover , after that time the first Foundation was laid in the East , for the conversion and overthrow of the Down-treaders . The first day therefore began in the year of Christ 498 ; the second 834 , the third day 1170 , the fourth day 1505 ; the half of which must needs be elapsed in the year 1674. A GENERAL EPISTLE TO THE Wiclef-Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans and Calvinists . 1. TO the Pastors , Sheep and Lambs of the Churches of the Five First Angels of the Seven , which have the Seven last Plagues , Quirinus Kuhlman ( called a Christian , not by Man , but by Christ , and their Brother , and of all those who glorifie God , and his only begotten Son Jesus Christ , in whatsoever Ceremony or Language ) heartily wisheth the first Love , and unanimous Concord , to flee with the greatest haste out of Babylon . 2. Most Beloved , the present applying of the Revelation , wherein I joyn you Wiclef-Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans and Calvinists together , will seem strange and wonderful unto you ; yet more wonderful my wishing you to flee out of Babylon ; whereby I declare you have not yet fully rejected all that is of Babylon : but most of all wonderful , will appear to you , the title of Brethren , which I give to you , and all that fear God , without any modern respect . 3. My applying of the Revelation will justly seem wonderful to you , when ye shall see that one God called you all ( though at divers times ) to one work , and withal consider your horrid Wranglings , Bitterness , and Condemning of one another ; as well as your open Wars , Offences and Proceedings against one another . 4. My Wish to you to flee out of Babylon will most justly appear yet more wonderful to you , because ye believe your selves long since to have left it , in shaking off the Papal Yoak , whereas here you will hear that you are yet in Babylon , and that that saying , Go out of her my People , belongs to you . 5. The title of Brethren , this will seem most wonderful ; because ye have esteemed all those ( though of the same denomination with you ) who have only differed from your way and mode , not as Brethren , but as Enemies ; not thinking them worthy of Burial when dead , and defameing them for damned wretches when alive : and much more have you done this to those who have quite cast off your denomination , or set up Articles contrary to yours ; whereas now you shall learn from the Scripture , to your shame and confusion , that ye have done all these Injuries to no other than your own Brethren . 6. For all the Secrets of Scripture , hid for so many Ages , shall be daily opened before the Eyes of all the World ; and the fore-play of the last Judgment will be seen in the sixth General Judgment , which is now a carrying on by the present Wars . 7. For not onely did your five Angels ( whose remainders ye are ) pour forth the Vials of the Wrath of God upon the Earth ; but the sixth Angel also followed them with the Prophets , Wise Men , and Scripture-learned , and will follow them so long , until that terrible War of Turks and Tartars ( so fatal to the whole World ) have fully opened to the seventh Angel , the Gate to the General Reformation of all Kingdoms , which is to make way for the Thousand years Paradisical Reign of the Saints . 8. For all the fore-praised Reformers , were fore-runners of the Reign of Christ upon Earth ( which is the lost Life of Paradise ) are so still , and will be so , though they know it not themselves ; who , as oft as they went about to judge of things to come , so oft they pass'd the Bounds of their Calling , because those things to come were to be attained in a riper Age , than that to which they had yet attained . 9. For the Reformation hath seven Ages , corresponding to those of a Man ; and there is as great a difference to be found amongst the Reformers , as is between an Infant , a Boy , a Youth , a Young Man , a Man , an Old Man , and one that is Decrepit . This one Line is a Key to the Signature of the past , present and future Christendom , and will most lively decypher your mistakes to you , my most dear Brethren . 10. The outward Reformed Church ( for at this time I shall be silent concerning the inward Reformed Church , and the Ages of its seven Angels sounding forth the everlasting Gospel ) was an Infant under John WICLEF , and the Waldenses , a Boy under John HVS , a Youth under Vlric ZVINGLIVS , grew to a Young Man under Martin LVTHER , became a Man under CALVIN , and doth draw unperceivedly toward Old Age under the Prophets , Wise Men , and Scripture-learned , favoured with an extraordinary Divine Call ; whom they , who have not yet reached their Old Age , have , do , and shall , yet for a while , despise and contemn . 11. It s true , that Wiclef , Hus , Zuinglius , Luther , and Calvin , were chosen by a true Call , to promote the Work of God against Antichrist ( I mean the Pope of Rome ) yet were they only furnished with such a Knowledge as the Age wherein they lived required , beyond which they could not raise themselves . 12. That great and wonderful sign in Heaven , was fulfilled in WICLEF , in the state and degree of an Infant , in HVS , in that of a Boy , in ZVINGLIVS , of a Youth or Stripling ; in LVTHER , of a Young Man ; in CALVIN , in the state of Manhood ; in the Prophets , Wisemen , and Scripture-Learned , in that of Old Age. And WICLEF had the First Plague to pour forth , HVS the Second , ZVINGLIVS the Third , LVTHER the Fourth , CALVIN the Fifth , the Prophets , Wisemen , and Scripture-Learned the Sixth ; and their Successors shall have the Seventh to pour forth . The Seven last Plagues , because in them is finished the wrath of God. For then the Seventh Day of the World hath found its beginning , and the Six Days of Labour are ended , when the Reign of Christ ( the prefiguring Type of Eternal Rest ) is come . 13. O Pope of Rome ! the Fall of thy Antichristian State , was the Restauration of true Christendom , and they were raised by God , whom thou hast accounted Hereticks , even WICLEF , HVS , ZVINGLIVS , LVTHER , and CALVIN ; who came out of the Temple of the Tabernacle of Witness in Heaven cloathed with pure and white shining Linnen , and girded about their Paps with Golden Girdles . 14. O King without a Queen ! the present Fall of thy Kingdom is the Restauration of the true Reign of Christ ; and Christopher Kotterus , Christina Poniatovia , Nicholas Drabicius , and all such like , are Prophets of God , receiving together with the foresaid Garment , the Golden Vials of their Predecessors WICLEF , HVS , ZVINGLIVS , LVTHER , and CALVIN , full of the wrath of God , who lives for ever and ever . 15. O God of this World ! the approaching fall of thy Vicegerency , will be the restauration of the heavenly Vicegerency ; and the Paradisical Communion of Saints , shall immediately follow the earthly Communion of Saints , representing one Sheep-fold under the Seventh Angel ; though subject as yet to many frailties , from which the Paradisical Communion will be altogether exempt . 16. Hence it is that these Seven Reformations are called the Seven last Plagues , and every Plague is so much the greater , as it is later ; which the experience of the past Reformations do abundantly witness . For during these Seven Plagues , the Temple was filled with smoak , from the Glory of God and from his Power ; and no man was able to enter into the Temple , until the Seven Plagues of the Seven Angels were finished . O words of greatest importance ! pointing out to us the whole defect of our Age ; Thus I see in the spirit , it hath been , is and will be , and still the worse , the nearer the end . 17. Every Age hath its Excellence and Weakness , both common in the Proverbs of all Nations ; and the same you will find in the several Ages of the Reformation , if you mind it . The praise of Infancy is Innocence , its stain is misery ; and the singleness of manners in a Child is spoil'd by his Untowardliness and Weakness ; the Vigor of Youth is stained with Fickleness and Inconstancy ; and the great Courage of Young men is marr'd by their Rashness ; the Strength of Manhood , by their Want of Moderation ; the Gravity of Aged Men , by Self-love ; and the Perfection of a full Old Age , by Cowardliness . 18. Apply to your selves , my Brethren , these Praises and Reproaches of the several Ages , which ( will ye , nill ye ) by the following Discourse you will find in your selves . In the mean time we shall follow the Text of the Revelation , and all along apply it to you , that you may have the more reason to know your selves and your Predecessors . 19. Peter WALD a Citizen of Lions , by his reproving the Errors of the Church of Rome , was the first by whom the Reformed Church conceived ; and in his time preparation was made for the pouring forth of the seven Vials , which the Roman Beast did vainly endeavour to prevent by so many bloody Wars . For a great Voice ( according to Scripture Prophecy ) was heard out of the Temple , saying to the seven Angels , Go and pour forth the Vials of the wrath of God upon the Earth . 20. And the first Angel went , in the person of John WICLEF , and poured forth his Vial , in teaching that the Pope was Antichrist , and that Purgatory , the Worshipping of Saints and Images , Transubstantiation and Indulgences , were his contrived Inventions , upon the Earth of Universities and Monasteries , in which the Beast doth dwell , which ascendeth up out of the Earth . 21. And there was an evil and sore boil , because the before suppressed Doctrine of the Waldenses was now revived and rectified , upon Men , Academicks and Monks , who had the Mark of the Beast , the Popes Academical and Monastical Institutions , Orders , and Dignities , and that worshipped his Image , the Body of the Canon Law , compiled to maintain the Popes Vicedeity against the Scriptures . 22. Thus the Reformed Church brought forth the Child it had conceived by WALD , and the First Hill of the Papal Throne was levell'd ; for WICLEF being banished out of England , by divine providence inlightened all Bohemia ( the Pathmos of the Waldenses ) which was the full effusion of the First Vial upon the Earth . 23. The praise of this first Reformation was its Innocence , for it was a most just thing ; its stain and reproach was ( not from it self , but from the Genius of the Time and Age ) misery , even cries and tears , by reason of the Antichristian Yoak ; because Infancy was not capable of any greater perfection . 24. View your selves , my Brethren the Waldenses , in this Looking-Glass , and take notice of this first Vial compared to Infancy , that you may with the more clearness come to know both your selves and your Brethren ; that so you may together with them , co-operate to the total ruin of the Pa●al Power , which is now to be accomplished under the sixth Vial. 25. The Persecution acted by the Duke of Savoy in the year 1655 , and for ever to be detested for so many frightful Instances of unparallell'd Cruelty , will give the Pope his Deaths wound ; and that in this the Prophet spake true , the event will shortly declare : the very remembrance of which Persecution hath oft inflamed my mind ( in the strength given me by God ) undauntedly to promote the down-fall o● the cursed Pope and all his Councellors employ'd by him , for the propagating of the Faith , and the rooting out of Gods Instruments . For as the beginning and Foundation of the outward Reformation was first laid by Wald , so from this Massacre of the Waldenses ( which happened in the fifth year of my Infancy ) the fatal Foundation was laid of the outward Ruin of the Papal Seat. 26. From the Waldenses , who scattered their Seed through Germany , France , Bohemia , Italy , Croatia , Bulgaria , and Dalmatia , under the Cross of Christ , Wiclef was born in England , being the Infant of Reformation , who soon after happily grew to be a Lad in Bohemia , under the Blessing of the most High. For the second Angel poured forth , in the Person of John Hus , being confirmed by the Writings of Wiclef , his Vial of the Doctrines of Wiclef , and communion under both kinds , upon the Sea of the Roman-Papal German Empire . 27. And it became like the Blood of one that is dead , John Hus and Jerome of Prague , being ( contrary to the Faith and safe Conduct given them by a Synod of 346 Archbishops and Bishops , 564 Doctors , and 1600 Dukes and Nobles ) burnt alive . At which Synod these cursed Doctrins were confirmed , That Faith was not to be kept with Hereticks , and also , that ( notwithstanding Christ both instituted and administred the Supper in both kinds ) Lay People were to be deprived of the Cup ; And every living Soul , retaining Christs true Institution of the Supper in both kinds , died ; being involved in Wars upon account of the forementioned breach of Faith , in the Sea of the whole Empire ; every one being forced to sight , either for the Truth or against it : both Hussites and Papal Imperialists , being now in Arms. 28. Now as soon as the Reformed Church grew to be a Lad , the Vice also which is proper to that Age , began to appear in it ; for the Hussites grew so intractable and untowardly by their intestine hatred and dissentions ( being divided into Calixtines and Taborites ) that they fell upon one another with no less fury than they did upon the Pope ; so that in this sense also it was true , That every living Soul died . 29. Yet the Childish Simplicity which at this day is found amongst the Bohemian Brothers and Sisters , conveighs to us the sweet Odor of this second Reformation , notwithstanding that all Bohemia groans under the cursed Papal Yoak . Rejoyce ye Hussites , my Brethren ! Rejoyce ! for I bring you glad Tidings ; Your Countrey shall be restored to you after a few Weeks , according to a Divine , not Humane account . O learn to know the time of your Visitation , and put off the untowardliness and weakness of Children , and instead thereof put on their simplicity of Christian Manners . 30. The whole World stood amazed at the second Angels pouring forth his Vial upon the Sea , for almost an hundred years together , in the overthrows given by the Hussites , which were the Shame of the Empire , the Reproach of the Pope , and the Wonder of all the Godly ; which yet were onely Preparatory for what was to follow . 31. For the third Angel poured forth , through Ulric Zuinglius , his Vial of Papal errors , upon the Rivers of the Rhine , and upon the Fountains of Water of Switzerland and Suevia . And it became Blood , by Reason of the Civil War of Switzerland , which was fatal indeed to Zuinglius himself , who was therein Mortally Wounded ; but much more fatal to the Papists , who had their Blood spilt by the Sword themselves had first drawn . Concerning which John saith ; and I heard the Angel of the Waters saying , Righteous art thou , O Lord , who art , and who was , and the Holy one ! That thou hast thus Judged , because they have Shed the Blood of thy Saints and Prophets , thou hast also given them Blood to drink , for they are worthy : And I heard another voice from the Altar saying , yea Lord God the Almighty , true and Righteous are thy Judgments . 32. O Bloody Youth of the Reformation ! Not alone terrible by reason of the Wars which grew more Bloody every day than other : For it was most Bloody to our fellow Brethren , because of their Ficklenes ; whereby their Liveliness and Vigor failed , before it failed , for a plague to the Enemies of Christ , who follow him in words but not in deed . 33. For almost at the very self-same time , the fourth Angel poured forth , through Martin Luther , his Vial , by declaring that the Pope of Rome was the great Antichrist , and the great Whore of the Revelation , upon the Sun of the Roman-German Empire , being the head of the Church of Rome , and of ten Kingdoms , and consequently upon the City of Rome it self , who calls her self the Sun. 34. And it was given to him , viz. The Roman Empire ; to scorch , with a very great fear of things to come : men , all under the Papal power , , with fire , of the religious Wars , as well those which were between the Protestants and the Emperor , as that between the Emperor and the Pope . And the men were scorched with a great scorching , whilst the Emperors General , having taken Rome , treated the Pope and his Creatures with the greatest Insolence , and the greater part of the German Empire siding with the Protestants , did strike a terror into the Emperor , and those other Kings which still adher'd to the Pope . And they blasphemed the Name of God , who had power over these plagues , by ascribing this Reformation to Men , and not to God , from whom they were sent : And they repented not to give the Glory to him , but persisted to establish the Popes Antichristian Inventions . 35. Zuinglius had scarce poured forth the Third Vial , but Luther comes and pours forth the Fourth , and the difference between them was the same , which is between a Youth and a Young Man ; so that no wonder if they drew all Mens Eyes upon them ; for Zuinglius with great force evinc'd that the Pope was Antichrist , but Luther with greater : The former was indued with an extraordinary Vigour and Liveliness , the later with a most undaunted Courage : and they carried on successfully the work of Reformation , as long as they turned the edge of their endeavour only against Papal Traditions . 36. But when they began to write concerning the Mysteries of the Christian Faith , without the inward and outward Light of the Holy Spirit ( according to the comprehension of their own Reason , from the dead Letter of Scripture ) there presently arose amongst them those lamentable Controversies and Contentions about the Holy Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ received in the Lords Supper , by means of which , this one Tree became first divided into two contrary Branches , as it happened in the Old Testament . 37. For the first and second Spirit mostly joyning it self with the fourth , and the third with the fifth , have produced two Capital Sects , and together with those two , innumerable others , which at length , by means of the sixth Spirit , shall be either brought to one Sheep-fold in the seventh Spirit , or else be utterly rooted out . But which are those seven Spirits of which you here speak ? ( for I perceive you 'll ask this Question . ) They are the seven Spirits which are before the Throne of God , proceeding from God by an Eternal Emanation , whose properties are most clearly to be seen in these seven last Plagues ; insomuch as they do abundantly reveal the Signature of the whole Reformation past , present , and to come , to the inlightened Sons of God : concerning which ye have already read something revealed in the fore-going Application of the seven Ages of Mans Life , and will read more in that which follows . 38. The Switzers , and many dwelling about the Rhine , followed Zuinglius , whereas Luther's Doctrine took most in Saxony , with his own Countreymen ; and Zuinglius conferring with Luther at Marpurg , but not agreeing , because Luther took those words , This is my Body , to be understood Corporally and Really ; but Zuinglius Significatively , at parting they promised to bear with one another in mutual Charity , without coming to any thorow Union and Agreement . 39. This was the Spring of the tears of the Godly ; from hence arose those Sacramentary Wars , as they are pleased to name them ; and in that Name retain the mark of Romanism 666. O Zuinglians ! O Lutherans ! my Brethren ! hear these true words . Zuinglius was fickle , and Luther rash in his Contention about the Supper ▪ the matter not deserving such Disputes , much less those bloody Wars , by which you now distinguish your Sects from each other ! You have made your Love-feast in imitation of the bloody Roman Feasts ; and know that as long as ye continue thus , ye have , are , and will be seduced by the Devil , the Father of Lies and Hatred . 40. The words of Christ , This is my Body , This is my Blood , are to be understood concerning his Coelestial Body and Blood , not concerning his Earthly Body and Blood , which hung upon the Cross : under his Earthly , Visible , Body , his Invisible , Heavenly , Body , hung upon the Wood of the Cross ; and under the appearance of his outward Blood , his Invisible , Heavenly Blood was shed ; neither do our Souls stand in need of the mortal Body or Blood , but of the immortal and new Body , which springs from Christs immortal Body , that therein it may become partaker of Christ , and member of his true , every where present , eternal , and divine Body . 41. The Mouth receives Bread and Wine , which it sends into the Belly as other common meat ; but the word , This is my Body , This is my Blood , proceeding from the Eternal Body and Blood of Christ , and containing the said Heavenly Body and Blood , is put on by the Soul as its new Body , which it lost by the fall ( yet lying hid in the lapsed Body ) that so when this Adamical Body is broken , it may arise in Christs new eternal Body . 42. For Jesus Christ with his Heavenly Body ( which was hid under his outward ) hath , doth , and shall at once , altogether , and always fill the Angelical World , notwithstanding his comprehensible , ●●●ane form , which appears now in the same proportion in Heaven , in which he walked here upon the Earth . I speak this by experience , for I my self ( though a poor , miserable , and afflicted Man ) have seen Christ appearing in our Earthly Form , and yet at the same time filling all ; and with these very Eyes I saw all the Saints appearing in his Body , who yet were every one of them distinct and divers from his Humane Body . 43. See here , I pray you , my dearest Brethren , what hitherto ye have not seen ; it is the Letter that kills you , the Spirit of which alone doth quicken . The Devil doth extreamly envy Men the Body and Blood of Christ , because Christ could not have left us a more precious Treasure than that of his Body and Blood ; which is the reason why the Enemy ( whilst Zuinglius and Luther were contending together ) did sow such tares in the matter of the Lords Supper , insomuch as the mischief done thereby can never be sufficienly expressed . 44. O ye Zuingliaens and Lutherans ! Learn hence who your Zuinglius and Lutherans were , and with all how rashly you have carried it toward your Brethren , abusing the Divine Call of Zuinglius and Luther . O Lutherans ! Lutherans ! How are ye degenerated ? Ye have no reason to be so puft up with Luthers Call , because nothing that is perfect appears during the seven Plagues , much less under the fourth , which is yet subject to great Frailties . Ye have framed Articles according to your own good pleasure , and have established your own Opinions , to the prejudice of Truth , and in so doing have brought the Pope , and Lateinus 666 again upon the Stage , though in another dress ; and alas ! have only increased the number of Wolves and Bears for to devour the Flesh of the Pope . 45. O ye Lutherans , my Brethren ! I observe that the modern Prophets , in an hidden parabolical way , do attribute far worse things to you , than they do to your Brethren , whom ye have condemned . O consider that Youth is like Wax , most easie to yield to Vice , but as hard as Stone to relent and turn from it ! Consider it I say ; and now shew your selves as easie to receive the day of Truth , as ye have been to admit the darkness of your most Antichristian Prejudices . 46. The Manly Age of the Calvinists ( who are so hateful to you ) will shew you , that you are the Youthful Age of the Reformed Church , and will unteach you your hatred , caused by the envy of the Devil . Luther the Angel of the fourth Vial , was the Plague of the Pope of Rome throughout all the German Empire , and the several Kingdoms belonging to it , whilst he lived , and dying will be the death of that Son of Perdition , in the three following Angels . 47. For the fifth Angel poured forth , by JOHN CALVIN his Vial , not only rejecting the Pope , but likewise all Papal Ceremonies , Images , Rites , and Institutions , upon the Throne of the Beast , France , being the inheritance of the most Christian King , and Eldest Son of the Pope , and where for 74 years together the Pope kept his residence . And his Kingdom was darkened , because of the Parisian Massacre , and the Kings terrible end ; and they gnawed their Tongues , because of the unhappy success of the accursed League , for pain , for the fruitless pains they had taken ; because the Blood of the Martyrs did make the Church to grow and thrive the better . And they blasphemed the God of Heaven , when they saw the Progress the Reformation made in the Low Countreys , upon their revolting from the King of Spain ; because of their pains , taken in the Spanish Inquisition , and Tyranical Government , and their sores , of so many overthrows received from the persecuted French and Dutch. And they repented not , because they did not attribute these signal instances of the Divine Vengeance unto God ; of their Works , their Persecutions , Massacres and Cruelties committed under pretence of defending the Christian Faith. 48. Sure enough the Church of the fifth Vial was arrived to Mans estate , which grew up under the pressure of such horrid Persecutions , and was never purer than when it counted most Martyrs . It was this Church held forth most lively instances of Patience and Humility , and is therefore to be praised before others for her Strength and Fortitude , though at the same time to be blamed also before others , because of her immoderation in the point of the Divine Predestination and Call to Salvation . For this only Error , so big with many gross Errors , was that dangerous Rock , which whilst the Luh●eran Church endeavours to avoid , she was driven upon that most Antichristian hatred against Calvin and the Reformed Church , for his sake , forgetting Christian Charity and Brotherly kindness , wherein this later Church far excelled her . 49. The greatest Error of all the Reformed Churches , hath , is , and will be , the vain perswasion , whereby they think themselves happy in the knowing and owning of this or that Article , and that all who do not know , oppose , or condemn the same , are damned . 50. Know O Man ! It is not Knowledge can make thee Blessed , nor Ignorance that can damn thee , but a Righteous , or Unrighteous Life ; the former of which consists in loving of God and your Neighbour , the other in hating them . What if it pleased God to try thee , O Lutheran Church , with this Error , whether thou wouldst prefer the Life and Love of Christ , before subtle Disputing about Opinions ? How wilt thou blush at the last Judgment , when thou shalt see many condemned ; whom thou hast blessed , and many blessed whom thou hast condemned ? These are no slight words , but well worth your serious consideration . 51. But as for you , O Calvinists or ( if you would rather ) Reformed , quicken your Attentions , open your Understandings , that you may see your Error in its very root . St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans saith , We know that all things work together for good , to them that love God , even to those who are called according to his purpose . For whom he did fore know , he also did praeterminate to be conformed to the Image of his Son , that he might be the first-born amongst many Brethren . Now whom he did praeterminate them he also called , and whom he called , them he also justified , and whom he justified , them he also glorified . 52. The Apostle saith well , Whom he did fore-know , them he also did praeterminate , placing Gods Fore-knowledge before his Praetermination , not whom he did praeterminate , them he also fore-knew , putting Praetermination before Fore-knowledge , as ye Calvinists do , when you expound this place , not understanding the infinite difference there is between the one and the other . Again , These words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are thus to be rendered , Whom he did fore-know , them he also did praeterminate : and the Compilers of Dictionaries seduce us , when they render the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , praedecrevit , antedecrevit ( he hath or did fore-decree . ) And when they render the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( which properly signifies praeterminavit , he did preterminate ) improperly praedecrevit , praefinivit , praedestinavit ( he did or hath praedecreed , praedeterminate , praedestinate ) and have in so doing made way for this gross popular Error . 53. For this Fore-knowledge and Praetermination of the most high God , is the most just Ballance , wherein your common Error is weighed : for hence it appears , that God did fore-know us from Eternity , and from this fore-knowledge did praeterminate all of us ; but not praeterminate us that he might fore-know us . It is certain that in God Fore-knowledge and Praetermination are , beyond all Humane Comprehension , together and at once , but not so in us , in whom Fore-knowledge and Praetermination are two different things , as all Humane Actions are . God fore-knew the fall of Adam , and from this Fore-knowledge he did praeterminate the whole Work of Redemption ; but God did not praeterminate the Fall of Adam , that from this praetermination he might fore-know the whole work of Redemption , which is contrary both to Scripture and Nature . 54. These few words ( if you have rightly understood me ) my most dear Brethren , do unanswerably determine all your Controversies about this Matter ; neither do they ascribe , or prescribe any thing to Man ( because all stands most freely in the will of God ) and yet do not destroy Mans free-will neither . Hence will appear how unprofitable and idle a thing your reason is , by which you have endeavoured to deduce Gods Eternal Decree from the Scriptures , especially from the Writings of St. Paul , and will be a burning light to dispel your own and your Brethrens darkness , with which ye have plagued your selves and others , and thereby cast your selves into the greatest dangers . 55 Ye have shewed your selves to be of Manly Age , O Calvinists , by your adding weight to the Youthful Age of Reformation , and by being Authors of the last General Sect ; but at the same time you have also had Manly Vices , whereby you have out vied those who were before you . 56. You have had the Synod of Dort , where the Churches of Britain , the Palatinate , Brandenburgh , Hassia , Zuitzerland , Wetteravia , Geneva , Bremen , and Embden , beheld the Unity of the Belgick Churches , but such a Unity as was not yet pure , but stained with many Antichristian Proceedings and Tenets , full of Prejudice and Opposition against the Divine Light ; and instead of correcting , corrupting the Interpretation of the Holy Scriptures , by adding to them without the Dictate of the Holy Spirit ; yet was it for all this , in some respect worthy of the fifth Vial. 57. My Brethren of the Reformation , ye have had an Humane National Synod , O that ye might shortly have a General and Divine Council ( which must needs be ) wherein not onely you and the Lutherans may be fully united ( having first laid aside whatsoever is amiss in either of you ) but also a door may be opened for the Turks , Persians , and Tartars to enter into Christendom ! O Israel and Juda ! How have you rent our selves from one another ? and continue yet to rend your selve● daily ? 58. Ye Lutherans , of whom I am born , ye I say , are Israelites , and the Reformed , whom ye have rejected , are the Tribe of Juda , God himself ( whom ye cannot resist ) affirming it ▪ Hear therefore , O Israel and Juda , the wor● of the Lord , whom ye have forsaken ! How long will you build up a Verbal Christendom , and destroy and pull down that which is Real ? How long will ye despise the Prophets sent to you by God himself ? Have ye not yet long enough doated upon the Whore of Babylon ? Or are ye resolved to perish with her ? One Sect after another grows up amongst you , and are all ready to devour you : and the sixth Judgement threatens not onely the Pope of Rome , but the Wolves and Bears also , who have been his Devourers . How long , being blinded , will you draw down upon your selves the Sixth Vial , part of which is already poured forth , as a fore-boding Sign and Figure of what is to follow . The 1st . Year . The 1st .. Month. The 1st . Four Weeks . The 1st . Twenty eight Days . 59. For the sixth Angel , poured forth through the fore-runners of the most High , the Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned , his Vial , by declaring that the Ruin of the Dragon , Leopard-Bear , and Lamb-Dragon is come , in this sixth Judgment , and that the Eastern Monarch , who is to execute the same , shall be converted , and that the lost Tribes of the Jews , shall ( to the great Commotion of the whole World ) of a sudden appear , and assist at the fore-said Execution . Vpon the great River Euphrates of the Asiatick , as well as European Babylon . The 2d . Year . The 2d . Month. The 2d . Four Weeks . The 2d . Twenty eight Weeks . 60. And its Water was dried up , by a daily clearer understanding and fulfilling of Prophecies , whereupon many leaving the Papal and Sectarian Babylon , did return to the one true Christendom , owning no other Name but that of Christians , joyning themselves unanimously ( according to their different States ) to one of the three Armies of God , viz. either to that with the Steel , or to that with the Golden , or to that with the Leaden Sword. That the way of the Kings from the East might be prepared , especially the Kings of Natolia ( the lesser Asia ) which are the Turks , and next of the Persians , Tartars and Jews , which in another respect will be further fulfilled under the Seventh Vial , after the Sixth is past . The 3d. Year . The 3d. Month. The 3d. Four Weeks . The 3d. Twenty eight Days . 61. And I saw [ come ] out of the mouth of the Dragon , of the Roman-Germ in Empire , which from Augustus Caesar , borrowed the Name of Augustus , as well as that of Dragon ( for the Latins tell us that his Mother Att●a conceived him by lying with a Dragon ) And out of the Mouth of the Beast , of the Roman Papal Kingdom , long since receiving his Power from the Imperial Dragon ; and out of the Mouth of the False Prophet , which are the Universities and Monasteries , three unclean Spirits , viz. Politicians ( or Men concerned in the Government of the State ) Ecclesiasticks and Philosophers ( or private Men ) all which three Orders our Modern Jesuits do comprehend , like unto Frogs , because they leave the Springs of the Holy Scriptures , and hide themselves in the stinking Ditches of Heathenish Phylosophy and Law-knowledge , croaking whilst the Summer of mans Favour lasts , but being silent in the Autumne and Winter of Tribulation , and are not able to indure the Light of a Candle in darkness . The 4th Year . The 4th Month. The 4th Four Weeks . The 4th Twenty eight Days . 62. For they are the Spirits of Devils doing Wonders , being pourd forth in the Wrath of God upon Church-men , Lawyers , Physicians , Philologers and Philosophers , who despise the Truth ; being full of Falseness , Pride , Covetousness , and Envy ; and who by their Monstrous Wickedness , blaspheme God in their Universities and Monasteries ; which go forth as Embassadors or Envoys , or as Academicks , under what form soever , whether of States-men , Church-men , or private Persons ; unto the Kings of the Earth , that is , of Europe , and of the whole World , of Asia and Affrica ; to gather them together , as well by their Words as by their Writings , in Opposition to this sixth Judgment , and the Reformation of Christendom , by the Conversion of the Jews and Turks . To the Battle of the great day , even of the Sixth General Judgement , of God the Almighty ; who will as certainly , to the astonishment of the World , accomplish the same ( as soon as the 1260 years of the Roman Dragon are expired ) as he hath already certainly fulfilled the five fore-going Judgments . The 5th . Year . The 5 Month. The 5th . Four Weeks . The 5th . Twenty eight Days . 63. Behold I come as a Thief , the Roman Babylonish Whore not believing , nor so much as thinking of it ; because it will be at a time , when ( if ever before ) she will be guarded with Armies , and Power ; and when being deluded by the persuasions of her Flatterers , she shall firmly expect the Subjection not only of the Reformed Churches , but of Mahumetanisme also . Blessed is he that watcheth in the outward inward Life of Christ , that he be not seduced by the Whores Felicity , and keepeth his Garments , which he hath once received under the Vials of Reformation , that he may not walk naked , by apostatizing from the Reformed Churches , because of the Tryals by God laid upon them ; and they see his shame , his Temporary and changing Faith , which seeks the good things of Christ , but not his Cross . 64. And he gathered them together . Upon the expiring of a Time , Times , and half a Time , into a place called in the Hebrew Tongue Armageddon , to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Greek renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Tahanach upon the Waters of Meghiddo , a place Famous for the overthrow of the Canaanites , after their twenty years Tyranny and Oppressing of the Jews : For then the threefold Papal Army , opposing it self against the three Armies of God , will at length appear to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Harmageddon an Unfortunate Troop , and accursed of God ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hhermagheddon their Army a Curse , which shall pierce through all the Members of the Papal body , according to what the Rabbins deliver concerning the force and Efficacy of this word ; or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hhormagheddon , their Army Hhorma , which was a City totally overthrown by the Israelites : And therefore shall not always be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Armageddon , a Treacherous Army , and an Holy League designed for the Ruin of the Reformed Churches . The 6th . Year . The 6th . Month. The 6th . Four Weeks . The 6th . Twenty eight Days . 65. Neither is the sixth plague poured forth alone , but the seventh meets it , and is poured forth together with it , even as the third and fourth Adolescence and Youth , did meet together , so also do concur the sixth and seventh Vial , Old Age and Decrepid Age : The said seventh Vial being already poured forth during the sixth Vial , and shall yet daily be poured forth with it , until the full accomplishment of the sixth general Judgement shall put an end to this sixth Vial. For the seventh Angel poured forth , by the Restorer of true Christianity , and his Eastern and Nothern Associates , his Vial , by putting an end to the four Monarchies , and by founding the Universal Christian Kingdom , into the Air of the whole Earth , whether known , or unknown , and of all men whether of the Highest , Mean , or Lowest Condition . The 7th . Year . The 7th . Month. The 7th . Four Weeks . The 7th . Twenty eight Days . 66. And there went forth a great voice , of the Universal Effusion of the Spirit , out of the Temple of Heaven , from the Throne , of the Heavenly Reign of Christ restored upon this our Globe , saying with the voice of Jesus Christ himself , now appearing and working in a manner which hitherto hath been strange and accustomed . It is done what was to be done ; the sixth Judgment is accomplished according to my Prophets , the whole Mystery of God being now also to be fulfilled . 67. And there were Voices of the greatest forebodings , and Thunders of most vehement Commotions ; and Lightnings of most quick and sudden Actions . The 8th Year . The 8th Month. The 8th Four Weeks . The 8th Twenty Eight Days . 68. And there was a great Earth-quake of UUniversal changes amongst all Nations , and their Conversion to the Christian Faith , such as was not since Men were upon the Earth , so mighty and so great an Earth-quake , because Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews was owned and acknowledged under the whole Heaven , to be the true Son of God , and the Three-one God began to be worshiped by J●phet , Sem , and Ham. The 9th Year . The 9th Month. The 9th Four VVeeks . The 9th Twenty eight Days . 69. And the great City , the Universal Babylon of all Kingdoms , by reason of so great Commotions , was divided into three parts , and the Cities of the Nations , all Idolatrous Kingdoms , fell , the Universal Divine Reformation advancing happily . The 10th Year . The 10th Month. The 10th Four VVeeks . The 10th Twenty eight Days . 70. And Babylon the Great , which from the fall of Adam , the Tower of Babel and Confusion of Languages hath been propagated through all Men , came in Rememberance before God , as it also happened at the Building of the Tower of Babel , to give unto her the Cup of the VVine of the fierceness of his wrath , by the Universal Destruction of all Confusions and Falsities , all divided Languages being reduc'd to that one , which was lost in the Adamical and Babylonish Confusion . 71. And every Island of particular Government and Worship , with estrangement from others , fled away , nothing but the Universal Truth being now promoted in all places , at the command of God , and the Mountains of opposing and resisting Powers , were not found , because God by his Wars did root out all that were disobedient . 72. And there fell a great Hail , of the wrath of God , of the weight of a Talent out of Heaven , not from Humane Instruments stirr'd up in the Wrath of God , upon the Men , who were disobedient to Gods Commands , and the Men blasphemed God , like unto Pharaoh , and the Israelites in the Wilderness , because of the Plague of the Hail ; for the Plague thereof was exceeding great , as being intollerable to Adamical Men , and indeed the heaviest of all Plagues , which the Holy Spirit in other places of Scripture hath more largely declared and discovered . 73. For when it shall be fulfilled , and they were both cast into the Lake of Fire burning with Brimstone ; then also will that be fulfilled which is here spoken concerning the great Hail , and soon after also will be fulfilled that which is spoke concerning the Devil , and he bound him a thousand years , which most desirable time will put an end to all Plagues . 74. The Sixth Plague shall destroy the Papal Antichrist , who hath already reigned above a Thousand years by succession , the last of which shall then kill himself ; but the Seventh Plague shall cast the Personal Antichrist ( of whom the Papists have more knowledge than the Reformed , bating their Preiudices in favour of their own Antichrist ) alive , together with his false Prophet into the Lake of Brimstone , during a Thousand years ; who because there are only a few months allotted for his reign , is no other than covertly hinted at in Scripture , under the notion of the Roman Antichrist . 75. Hear these things O Reformed House of Israel and Juda ! and wonder at , or rather ponder your blindness ! for you will find that this my Explication of the Sixth and Seventh Vial doth so much agree and harmonize with the Writings of the Modern , Divinely Inlightned Prophets , Wisemen , and Scripture-learned , that you will be forced , whether ye will or no , to confess that they have left us and you a more particular Explication , and a fuller and clearer Revelation of the Revelation , which they received from God. 76. My dear Brethren ! hitherto you have been mistaken in your blind Zeal , and being loaded with Prejudices , have rejected those who were sent to you from God , should you go on to do so against your Conscience and Knowledge , how dangerous would it prove to your Souls ? 77. O Lutheran Israel ! God was pleased to send to thee at one time three Men who were furnished by the Holy Ghost ( far beyond thy comprehension ) with the true Gift of Prophecy , Wisdom , and Scripture-learning ; the Prophet was Kotterus , the Wise-man Behmen , the Scripture-learned Engelbrecht , whom thou hast regarded as Israel of Old did the Messengers which were sent unto them , to thine own great damage . Hast thou despised them ? despise them so no more ; seeing them to be sent by God , but think them worthy your serious reading again and again , and amend your Errors and Antichristianisms , as you are commanded by God in them , and others of their fellow servants . 78. And thou House of Juda ! God hath chosen thee in thy King Frederick the Fifth , with whom he might take his delight , speaking all those things concerning a Man of the Fifth Reformed Church individually , which were to happen to the whole Reformed Church under the Sixth and Seventh Vial ; and again concerning a Man of the Antichristian Church Ferdinand the Second , revealing all things contrary . Hath thy Ignorance hindered thee from understanding this ? Now understand it : examining them diligently , whom hitherto because of the riddle of their Prophetick stile ( as yet either lost or unknown ) being seduced by some of thine own party , thou hast undervalued and neglected . 79. Pray what is more common in our ordinary way of speaking and writing than such expressions as these ? The King of France dies not , Rudolf is yet alive , King Charles of England is not dead yet , Julius Caesar flourisheth still . And why so ? because though a Prince be mortal , yet in his Children and Successors he becomes immortal and eternal . And what is more common in Scripture Prophecies , than to have a thing fore-told of one and fulfilled in another ? 80. Frederick the Fifth is not yet dead , not Ferdinand the Second , the first lives in the Elect of the Reformed Church ; the later in the Sons of the Antichristian Whore. Frederick indeed was mortal , but the Church he was of , immortal and though Ferdinand be dead , yet the Papal Church is not so yet , in whom Ferdinand is yet to be found . As long as God shall have any in the Reformed Church , who endeavour the Conversion or Ruin of the Papal , to the end that the Propagation of Christianity amongst the Nations may be no longer obstructed , so long will Frederick yet be Fighting for God against the Pope , and be King of Bohemia , which was the Mother of the Infancy and Child-hood of the Reformed Church , and consequently of the whole Church of God , which shall at length arrive to its full and perfect Age. And on the contrary , as long as the Devil shall have his Ministers , who revere the Papal Blasphemies , instead of the Word of God , and do in any manner persecute the truth , so long will Ferdinand continue to be the bloody defender of the Beast . 81. Frederick doth not live in his Family , which is his Bodily Off spring , but in his Spiritual Off-spring ; and though all his Family should die , yet would not he . And the same may be said of Ferdinand , whose Bodily House is now nearer to Death than ever , that it might be a Figure of his Spiritual House and Family . Frederick is dead indeed to us , but not to God ; and so likewise Ferdinand ; and they shall both see the day of Deliverance ; the one shall rejoyce , the other grieve and mourn ; of which ( considering the present ignorance ) it is better to be silent then to speak further . 82. This is the true Key to open the greatest Difficulties which are found in our Modern Prophets , and with the same Key the Mysteries of time may be unlocked , which are by so much the more truly and securely lock'd up in a most wonderful account of Numbers , by how much the more dark they are to be understood . 83. What I here speak of Kotterus , the same is to be applied to Kregel , Christina Poniat via , and more especially to Drabicius , who is not yet beheaded , but sounds his last Trumpet with his Assistant Joh. Amos Comenius , stronger than ever . 84. They who would weaken the truth of his Prophecy , urge that place concerning the end of his Life in these words ; Rev. 264. Thou shalt go to thy rest in Peace , at the Age of Fourscore and four , in thy own Country , even the same place I have formerly nam●d to thee . The power of thy Enimies shall not hurt thee , thou shalt be laid in thy Grave in Peace . And yet we are told that he was beheaded by the Emperor the 17th of July 1671 ; after he had made a kind of Recantation . Again , they say that at the time of his Death he was not Fourscore and four years of Age ; for he was born the Fifth of Decemb. 1588 , and accordingly was not to die till after the Fifth of December 1672 , neither ( say they ) was he laid in his Grave in Peace in his own Countrey , nor in the place which had been formerly mentioned to him . 85. But they understand these words as all the rest ; for he was indeed Aged Fourscore and four Lunar Years ( which together with Lunar Months , we find that our Modern Prophets commonly make use of in their Calculations ) when he went to the rest of the Martyrs in Peace , in his own Countrey , even Hungary ; concerning which he had prophesied so much , and in the same place which the Revealer had before mentioned ; Rev. 212 , 213. Thou shalt stand before Caesar with Honourable Persons ; which is expresly confirmed in the Sentence which was past upon him ; where he was also crowned with the first Crown , Rev : 129. to wit , with the Crown of Thorns , which was covertly intimated to him ; Rev. 132. which Christ at his Death did bear most willingly , Drabicius most unwillingly . 86. Which place of his Martyrdom was often afterwards mentioned unto him , though he did not understand it so , as Rev. 410. I will lay a Burthen upon thee , which thou wilt hardly bear ; again , Rev. 429. Do thou trust in me ! for they shall come to carry thee where thou hast never been , and whither thou wilt go unwillingly ; Rev. 438. Thou art blessed like Peter , to whom also Christ said , Thou walkest whither thou liftest ; having before said to him , Blessed art thou , Rev. 538. Thou shalt not see the end of all these things , because I thy God will bring thee over to my self , into the inaccessible light . Do not ye observe that his approaching Martyrdom was fore-told to him , especially Rev. 429. formerly mentioned v. 7. where it is expresly said , I will not as yet tell thee whither thou art to go , to the end thou mayst not afflict thy self , yet shall my right hand there lead thee . 87. The power of Drabicius his Enemies did not hurt him , neither in respect of his second Crown of Prophecy , nor in respect of his third Crown of Glory ; and that passage , Rev. 608. is to be understood concerning the second Crown ; Whom be not thou afraid of , as having in me an abundant Protection and Blessing too , which is now ready waiting for thee at Breslaw , as surely as if thou saw●st it with thine own Eyes . 88. For I am of Breslaw , and do examine Drabicius , together with Kotterus , Kregeln , Christina , and all other Witnesses of God , intending to go to New Rome in the power of God , being now just upon the point of undertaking my Roman Journey ; and shall in Gods due time , in Rome it self , in the presence of the Pope and Emperor , expound and defend the Prophets raised up by God , and that , its like , with an unusual power , to the end the two slain witnesses , viz. The regenerate Sons of both Scriptures , may rise more gloriously . If the Pope then shall find himself furnished with the Golden Sword of the Mouth , from the Holy Ghost , he will kill me with it ; but if not , the Holy Ghost in me shall kill the Pope with the Sword of the Mouth , as being Antichrist , devoid of the Spirit , and who 's strength lies not in a Spiritual , but Material Sword , and yet even that also shall be broke by the Steel and Leaden Sword. 89. Wherefore it is your Duty , O ye Lutherans and Reformed , my Brethren ! to lift up your Heads at the News of this approaching Deliverance , and having first united your selves together in a true Concord and Agreement , and heartily repented of your mis-deeds , to set upon the Reforming of your Churches , by an unanimous Recantation of all your Errors . 90. Will you not receive the Prophets ? at least receive the Revelation of the Scriptures you own , which doth most lively describe you and then according to the said Scriptures , you will understand the Praedictions of all the Prophets of the Sixth and Seventh Vial. Receive the extraordinary Heavenly Witnesses , which for the time of a Prophetical Month , have been visible to you and all the Inhabitants of the Earth ; I speak of Stars and Comets , which are to all Nations , as so many Natural Commentators upon the Supernatural Scriptures . 91. Memorable is that Comet which appeared the very self-same day wherein the Orders were signed at Vienna , for a Reformation in my Native Countrey Silesia , being the 19th day of Decemb. 1652 , and was fore-told eight days before by Drabicius ; which Comet came out of the Ark of Noah , and did arise with us in that very place of the Heavens , where Noahs Dove , with its Olive Branch is seen , and took its course directly toward that place where the famous New Star of 1572 first appeared to the World. 92. Memorable is that Solar Eclipse of the year 1654 , 12 of Aug. which returned the Sun its Light from West to East , in the appearance of a Sickle , after it had been darkened from Nine of the Clock till after mid-day ; which great prodigy was not onely visible to all Christendom , but beyond it too , and was Divinely interpreted by Stephen Melish in his 115 Vision , as not onely concerning Breslaw , but the whole World. 93. Memorable was that third Conjunction of the two Superior Planets in the Fiery Trigon , in 1663 , together with the preceding great Conjunction of all the Planets in the Fiery Sign Sagitary , the 1st . of Decemb. 1662 , a thing not to be parallell'd by any known instance of former Ages . 94. Yet more memorable was the Comet which appeared in Decemb. 1664 , which joyn'd it self with the Comet which appeared about Easter 1665 , near the Ears of the Ram , where it become the Suns Companion , beyond what hath been known in any former Age. 95. But most memorable of all was the Comet which appeared about Easter 1677 , being the swift Executor of all the fore-going Stars , Comets , and Conjunctions , and the Introducer of Changes upon the whole World. 96. These ordinary and extraordinary Witnesses , the fore-runners of the greatest Alterations , though they surpass the Wits of Heathen Astrologers , yet do they so clearly attest the Change of all Kingdoms , that the publick and private , written and oral Conjectures of all Men agree in this , that some unheard of Revolution is to be expected . 97. But there is no Astrologer ( of those I have seen ) whose Conjectures have come nearer the truth , than the Almanack Writer of Staden , who expresly compares the two Comets of 1664 and 65 , to two who give in their Evidence before a Judge , and the third to a publick Herald , proclaiming the Sentence given in upon the fore-going Evidence ; and therefore declares his Opinion , that within 24 months time the work of God will be manifested , by preparing the whole Roman and Turkish Empire for quite another War , then is now believed , which is to last till the next Age , and to run over the greatest part of the whole World , and that the end of it will be , the propagation of the Gospel in the East , and the return of the Christian Church to the place of its first rise . 98. I confess I could not read these things in an Astrologer without tears , who I found had with his ordinary Skill , more diligently examined these extraordinary Witnesses of Heaven , than those who are learned in the Scripture do examine the extraordinary Prophets of God , and besides determined the exact time of two years ( in which he will not be mistaken ) though at that time there was no appearance of any such thing , whilst our Church-men being drown'd in the sleep of Vanities , deny that ever any such things shall be , much more that within two years we shall see the beginning of them . 99. Many , many of the Nations which are now strangers to Christianity , shall with Denis the Areopa●ite , own and acknowledge the approaching Reign of Christ , which our Pharisees do reject , and our Sectarian Hypocrites shall not believe the Destruction of the Ecclesiastical Jerusalem of all Sects , till they feel it . 100. O ye Lutherans and Reformed , my most dear Brethren ! you have gazed upon the Comets , you have read the Conjectures that have been made concerning them , which you may further inspect and judge of infallibly from the writings of the Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned , sent to you by God ; since the fore-mentioned Comets are nothing else but so many Natural Commentaries upon the Scriptures , and their Commentators Christopher Kotter , John Kregel , Herman de Hude , Nicholas Drabits , Stephen Melish , Christina Ponialovia , and the like : And again , these are so many Supernatural Commentaries upon the fore-said Comets ; search them both , and you 'll find the one confirm the other . 101. These Comets are all Witnesses of the Sixth and Seventh Vial , which are in part already poured forth , and partly to be poured forth hereafter ; their whole time being comprehended in such a number , as contains ten years , and ten months , and 40 weeks and 280 days , and almost full 7 hours , the number ten , the number five , and a unity , and yet is but one number . If you understand it , keep it to your selves ; but if not , do not underta●e to judge concerning the Modern Prophetick Numbers , because this our Number is the root of Prophetick Numbers . 102. And that you may have no quarrel with the Prophets , my dear Brethren , I shall apply to the two fore-mentioned Vials this very number , which because I have set down before , I 'll only point you to here , to avoid repetition ; which number do you seriously ponder and revolve in your minds , for it is the most secret and absolute number of the Scripture , being sealed , and leads us to the very year of the manifestation of the terrestrial Paradise , necessary to be known by us of this Age ; for the hour of the last Judgement must abide sealed up for reasons known to God , being hid under the number of a thousand years . 103. The afore-said number will be found to agree with the years , months , and weeks , of our Modern Prophets , and I had already began in the fore going line , to apply them to the numbers of our Witnesses , which are yet alive , which yet after two days pause I blotted out again , contrary to my custom ; because both the impulse of my mind , and a two days consideration , abundantly perswaded me , that I had much more reason to be silent than to declare any thing about this matter . 104. I say contrary to my custom ; for whatever from my Soul-mind-spirit , flows once into my Pen , never needs any blotting out , because our inward Dictator , who is incomprehensibly hid under the outward , scarce ever suffers us to mistake , it being rare for our hand to make a blot , insomuch , that what is once writ continues written , though I want the Prophetical Dictation , which is very different from our way of writing . 105. The impulse of my mind ; because I remember the past Contentions , by which our yet living Witnesses ( whether standing in the first , second , or third principle ) did greatly trouble and hinder me , who was yet ignorant of such Frailties ; for they measuring others , with the measure of their own principle , went astray from their Call , and led others into the same Error with themselves . 106. And two days consideration ; for the longer time some intervening occasions gave me of considering , the greater need I found to blot out what I had begun to write , and not at all to meddle with the Numbers of such as were yet alive ; for I considered that they being caught in the riddle of their own Principle , would not be able to understand nor bear the clear opening of the term of years , which was given to them infolded in a Prophetick Riddle ; and being too tender promoters of their own will , did shorten this fearful and universal work of God , according to their affections , not seeking the Glory of Jesus Christ with their whole heart . 107. You do not purely seek the Glory of God in his Son , whosoever you are , that do so anxiously call for a shortning of the time ; whereas it would become you wholly to leave the time in the will of God , till all that is to be done , be accomplished . Make haste , my Brethren , make haste , to sow the Seed ye have received from God , in the Hearts of Men , least contrary to Natures Order , you should seem to hope for a Harvest before the Seed time , as hitherto ye have done , and by the same mistake have unhappily lost your sowing season . 108. The Seed being once cast into the Ground , will spring up abundantly , and at the time of Harvest will give its ripe fruit ; our Forefathers shall enjoy their hope in us , and we shall enjoy ours , in our posterity , as being all but divers Members of the one glorified Body of Jesus Christ . 109. If ye understand this , my Brethren and Sisters , whether Prophets , Wise , or Scripture-learned , understand it , you are onely the more particular appliers of Scripture , and I relying upon the Base and Center of Scripture , do expresly declare , that all your Numbers will follow mine , if they be from the Holy Spirit ; neither shall my Number follow yours , except they be consonant to the Scriptures . 110. Wherefore give ear , O my Brethren of Israel and Juda , to this Revelation of the Sixth and Seventh Vial , and not to your false Academicks , if you would learn the Disposition and Genius of the future , as well as present and past time ; and have a more careful esteem of the living Servants of God , whom having once laid this foundation , you 'll easily distinguish from false ones . 111. The two years time of the last Comet expiring in May 1679 ( at which time my double * Quinary , given to me alone by God , expires likewise ) will rouse you out of your sleep of security ; for this most wonderful work of God doth daily dawn and discover it self in such an harmony , where in Heaven and Earth , all above , and all below shake hands , and are agreed together ; so that through the Grace of God , the pouring forth of the Sixth Vial upon Euphrates ( which is the Turkish and Persian Empire ; and in another respect , whole Rome the Eighth , and the Spanish Dominion in Europe ) is at hand . 112. When you shall see those new Christians flourishing in the Life of Christ , and the Three-one Light despised of Christians , to shine forth beyond belief in the Hearts of many under the Turkish and Persian Empire , and that with far brighter Rays than ever it did in our named Christendom ; then let this be a certain sign to you , that the first year is expired of those 10 mentioned before ; the time of which being rightly counted , will open to you all the rest . 113. My Heart melts with joy , whilst I write these things , and the splendor of the Light World , being open to my inward Eyes , doth triumph with me . Rejoyce O ye Fasterlings ! rejoyce ! The Sun of Righteousness shall suddenly arise to you , with the lustre of innumerable Rays , and shall change your Half moon ( which the Dragon will endeavour to devour ) into the Sun. The great and wonderful things of God are a preparing to be preached unto you , which the Seers neither have seen nor shall see . Holy , Holy , Holy is the Three , one God , who was , and is , and will be one God! 114. O that ye Lutherans and Reformed , understood these things ! I know that with an unanimous Agreement you would cast away your Sectarian Discord , and get you out of Babylon , according to my former Apprecation , which I shall more fully explain in that which follows : For to you Wicklef-Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans , and Calvinists , my fellow Brethren , hath the voice , as well of the inward as outward Eternal Gospel , sounded from Heaven , by the Prophets , Wisemen , and Letter-learned , saying , Go out of her , by a total rejection of all Babylonish Papal , Roman , Latine , and Heathen Rites and Errors , my People of the Reformed Church , from its Infancy to its Manly Age , that ye may not be partakers , as hitherto ye have been in your Love , Manners , Words , and Actions , with her Sins , and that ye may not receive , if wanting true repentance , you continue so at the appearance of this Sixth Judgement , of her Plagues , which your selves have poured out upon her , as having been the rod to punish her , which afterwards is also to be cast away , as having no further use . 115. For your Political or Civil State , O Israel and Juda ! is corrupted with the Laws of the Dragon , I mean the Institutions of Justinian ; and your Ecclesiastical State is no less ruin'd with Opinions taken from the Papal Canon Law , being nothing else but so many palliated Antichristian Errors : and your private Academical State is changed into perfect Heathenisme . 116. Reform therefore the Government of your Church and State , and the Discipline of your Schools , according to the Form and Rule of the Holy Ghost , that is , the Scriptures , and their Divine Commentaries , the Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned , as well those before commended , as others of the same stamp , who may easily be known by being compared with them ; and in so doing you will erect such a Christendom as the Scripture describes to be agreeing with the sixth Vial. 117. Restore the one onely Name of Christians , having rejected the Names of Wiclef-Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans , Calvinists , and all other Names of Authors ; and herein follow me , or rather Christ in me , who am the first that by a publick and solemn Confession , and by a real , not verbal Rejection of all other Names , have re-taken the Name of Christian . 118. Having restored the Name of Christians , restore also with me one Catholick Christian Confession , to wit the Holy Scripture ; and at the same time make one Universal Christian Confession , full of the everlasting Gospel , out of the Augustan , Basil , Suevian , both the Switzerland , Saxon , Witteberg , French , English , and last Bohemian Confession , and then burn all but it , together with all their voluminous Commentaries . 119. What was said concerning Confessions , the same is to be understood of Catechisms , out of all which , with the assistance of Divine Light , let one Universal Christian Institution be compiled for the Instruction of Youth ; which by its evident Truth may be able to recommend it self to all Christians , not by force and violence , which hath been the fruitful Womb of Antichristianisme . 120. Collect also Bodies or Systems of the Doctrine of the Reformed Church : as for Example , out of all the Writings of the Wiclef-Waldenses , select and make up one Body of the Doctrines of the Reformed Church in its Infancy ; out of all the Writings of the Hussites , a Body of the Reformed Child-hood : out of the Zuinglian Writings , a Body of the Adolescence or Reformed Stripling Age ▪ out of the Lutheran , a Body of the Reformed Young-manly Age ; out of the Writings of the Calvinists , a Body of the Reformed Manhood ; and out of the Writings of the Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned , a Body of the Reformed Old Age : that so a perfect Concord and Harmony may be established , and all Mistakes and Errors utterly cast away . 121. This is the sum of my intention , as to those Systems or Bodies I mentioned in my Forerunner , neither have I writ or said any thing ( though it may have surpassed your belief ) which I could not really effect by the Grace of God ; and am most willing , my most dear Brethren , to communicate all these things and such like more to you , which are of force enough to transmute all the Lead of your Babel into pure Gold , if you will but heartily set upon the Work of Reformation . It was for this I was born , and called before I was born , that I might change Babylon into Gold , without the use of any material Sword , whether of Steel or of Lead , and the strength of my Enemies falling upon me in vain , shall fall by their own strength , the Lord of Hosts fighting for me , you your selves being Witnesses . 122. But in the first place restore One onely Scripture , as well in its Text , as Interpretation ; and as soon as ever you have restored the Scripture , with one consent burn all your Modern Bibles , which are the Instruments of Sectarian Confusion , abounding with many Additions , Emendations , Explications , Divisions , Disjoyntings , and Changes of Humane Reason . 123. For my chiefest Design is to restore the Scripture , with the assistance of Divine Light , in order to an universal Conversion , and to expose the same , not only to the censure of you , my Lutherans and Reformed ; but also to that of all People , Nations , and Languages of the Four Corners of the Earth ; to the end that one God may be known in one Scripture , under one Sun. 124. The very Letter of Scripture hath been very much blurr'd by Jews as well as Christians , upon several accounts : but if this have hapned in the Text , much more in the Interpretations , which do so vary from the Text , and from one another ; that I have scarce had freedoom to alledge the Text of Scripture in the former part of this Epistle , when I considered the many Errors in the various Readings and Interpretations occasioned by the neglect of Writers and Printers . 125. If I had the outward Letter of the Scripture in its genuine truth and purity , I should easily with the outward Letter have conquered all Sectaries ( the inward Spirit of the Scriptures being opened to me ) and therefore I can no longer bear these dark evasions of a corrupted Text , but shall retrieve the Scripture , as to the truth of the Letter , by the help and assistance of the Dictator himself ; which I am in an assured expectation I shall accomplish in the view of the whole World. 126 And to this end ( in the strength of God ) I shall cast away all humane Additions whatsoever ; as those of Contents , Divisions of Chapters and Verses , and much more all Additions to the Text it self ; and in so doing , shall discover the Faults of the Original Scripture amongst the Jews , as well as Christians , which are all stained with these blots , and much more the errors which are in the Interpreted Scriptures of all People , Nations and Languages . 127. I shall restore the Text it self , both Hebrew and Greek , not by mine own knowledge , but by the Grace of God alone ; and at the same time shall expose to view an Instance of a true Translation in the La●ine , German , and Arabick Tongues , for a pattern to all other People , Nations , and Languages , that so our Universal work may come to be of universal use and service , as being designed onely for the glorifying of Jesus of Nazareth , King of the Jews , in every People , Nation , and Language . 128. The last Five Volumes of this Universal Work , shall present the Twenty four Books of the bare Text of Scripture ( according to the number of the Elders in the Revelation ) dress'd up in a comely Garb to the Eyes of the World , and compleat ( if it please God ) the number 77. of our Universal Writings , with respect to the 77. Persons of Lucifer's restored Throne : in which Writings both Scriptures shall by way of Paraphrase be explained , according to the Three Principles severally and conjoyn'd . 129. The intended Paraphrase of the Scripture beginning from the Fall of the Angels , and thence proceeding to the Creation of this World , shall open all the Arcana , Secrets and Mysteries of Scripture , which are necessary for the present Age ; and shall beyond the belief of men of this Age , unfold the whole Work of the Redemption of Mankind , from Adam through all the Patriarchs , Prophets , and Kings , unto Christ himself , and from Christ through all the Apostles , and their Successors , unto the Thousand years of Paradise ; to the end that all People , Nations , and Languages ( will they , nill they ) may acknowledge and own Jesus Christ to be the true Son of God , and the Saviour of the World. Moreover in this Paraphrase , the true Chronology , which hitherto hath been lost , shall be restored to the World , and all the Mysteries of Numbers past , present , and to come , unvailed : but above all , herein , as in a clear Looking-glass , the Great Whore of Babylon shall be exposed naked to the view of all , to the end that all Prophecies may be fulfilled . 130. The Scripture being opened according to the First Principle of the seven Arts , to the Mystical Posterity of Japhet , shall discover the true and solid Principles of all Arts , consonant to whole Nature , in so many thousand Aphorisms , as shall exceed those of all Academical Writings put together in Number , but much more in Worth and Value , as being true refined Gold , in comparison of the others Lead : which discovery will promote the ruine of the present Universities , and make way for the restoring of true Christian Schools . 131. The Scripture opened to the Off-spring of Sem , according to the Second Principle of Grace , shall first of all unvail the mystical Kingdom of Christ in us ; by means of which the whole Scripture , from the beginning to the end , is contain'd in every one of us , and shall discover all those most holy Pearls of Divine Mysteries , which hitherto have onely in particular been disposed of to a very few Friends and Spouses of Christ , unknown to the World : and then it will be as clearly understood , that every man is really a Micrographe ( that is a little Scripture ) either for Heaven , or Hell , as now it is ignorantly denied . 132. The Scripture opened according to the Third Principle of whole Nature , unto the Children of Ham , shall reveal the most universal Master-piece of Nature , and shall discover the Science of all Adepts , that have been , or shall be , together with the Signature of the Stone of the Wise-men ; and wholly lay open the very Root of that Tree , beyond the belief of all Adepts who live in the Third Principle without the Second . Hearken ! ye Adeptists , my Brethren , ( whether ye be in the East-Indies , or in any other part of the World. ) Hearken ! Nature shall be reduced to Scripture , and Scripture to Nature ; to the end that all hidden things may be revealed : the time of your gathering together from the Four Corners of the Earth draws near , which will be as soon as the Vial of the Wrath of God shall be poured forth upon the Air ; to the end that in a fuller measure , than ever heretofore , you may be made partakers of the infinite Son of the infinite Tincture , being the very Image of Jesus Christ in Nature , when the First Principle shall dwell in the Second , and the Third shall serve the Second . 133. The Scripture opened according to the Three Principles conjoyn'd , is yet to continue sealed , until the Lord shall be pleased to unseal the same , either in me or some other person ; because I see that the sound of the Trumpets of the Lord grows every day stronger and stronger , one Witness of God following the other at the heels , the later still excelling the former . 134. The present Writing will intimate to you , what Wonders may be expected from the restored Text of Scripture , and will most plainly lay open to you Lutherans and Reformed , the Infancy , Childhood , Stripling-age , Youth , and Manhood of your Interpretations : all which of right are to give way for old Age to succeed them , having already fulfilled their service amongst Infants , Children , Striplings , Young-men and Men. 135. Hitherto I have been a shewing you your Divine Call , and withal pointed out to you your Babylon . And though I have already abundantly made it appear , that you are Fellow-brethren , yet shall I in what follows more particularly make it out to you ; to the end at length you may learn to be wise , and leave the ways of Cain . For the Spirit of God in his Prophets doth every where accuse the coldness of your Charity to your Fellow-brethren , without which Charity , your Reformation is nothing but a Deformation of Christianity , and an appearance without reality . 136. O my Lutheran-brethren , ye have been colder than the Iseland Snow in your Charity to your Brethren the Calvinists , and they again to you , notwithstanding you were nearest to one another ; and that by reason of your Contentions about some Articles of Faith , not about the Life of Christ : in which Articles ye have most Antichristianly placed your Salvation , and not in the Holy Life of Christ . 137. Christ taught you to pray , Forgive us our Debts , even as we also forgive our Debtors ; which you have indeed daily prayed , and yet continue to pray to your own damnation . You do not forgive your Debtors their Debts , and yet you ask the same forgiveness of God , and receive it too , even the same you have exercised towards others , and askt of God. 138. You have out of envy laid great Debts to the account of many holy Men of God , who have been extraordinarily call'd amongst you ; which if they had really been chargeable with , yet ought ye to have forgiven them , as having daily promised to God so to do ; but in stead of this , ye have contrary to your Prayers and Conscience , condemned those alive and dead , who are a thousand times more happy than your selves . 139. Hence it was , that at the beginning of my coming forth , such a flame of wrath burst out against you , and openly discovered your nakedness , not being able to see such Antichristrian actings covered over with the Name of true Christianity ; which I desire you to blot out with the repentance of a serious amendment : turning the edge of your anger , not against me , but against your selves . 140. I have in this Discourse , O Lutherans and Reformed , most nakedly opened my peaceful heart to you all ; I have distinctly shew'd you the Good and the Evil which is amongst you : I have laid before you the Means of a true Reformation ; under the Title of Fellow-brethren I have lasht your most Antichristian Enmities : I have entirely forgiven all my Debtors amongst you , and at the present do forgive you my dearest Brethren , any Debts of your threatned Writing against me , if so be you esteem the same as not written ; having only design'd it in your ignorance , to the end your nakedness may not be expos'd to the view of the World. 141. The Truth , which is become Man , will in me triumph against all his Enemies , and your Posterity in Sweden , Denmark , Saxony , Holland , England , France , and Venice , will be of my side , not of yours , when in the time of their great tribulation , they shall understand their Call out of the Prophets , if ye in your time should refuse to hear and understand it ; which God forbid . 142. For then the Eternal Gospel which ye had rejected , would be taken from you , and translated to our Brethren of the East , the Turks , Persians , and Tartars , and from thence would onely reflect its Light to you , as from its Center ; so that then you would never again be able to buy that Living Water , to quench the thirst of your Souls , so nigh unto you for nothing . 143. As long as there is yet hopes of your Repentance , so long shall ye be my Fellow-brethren ; but as soon as your last Breath is past your Lips , you shall then either be my Fellow-brethren ever or never . 144. What I have said of you , the same may be said of the Turks , Persians , and Tartars , as well as of Nominal Christians ; because Turks and Persians , with others who are Strangers to the Name of Christ , if they heartily glorifie Christ by a Righteous Life towards God and their Neighbours , though they have no Explicite Knowledge of Christ , are notwithstanding partakers of him , and that in a nearer degree than our Nominal Christians , notwithstanding their Mahometanisme , which in time must be totally done away . 145. Would you know the reason of this Assertion ? Consider the rise of Mahomet ; was not he raised in the Wrath of God to be a Scourge to the Roman Antichrist ? and if you view the Roman Idolatry with their Saints and Saintesses , you 'll find that the Mahometans are justifiable , not in respect of their own Law , but in regard of the Scandal they received from Rome ; for which reason also the Execution of the Sixth Judgment ( which is to pass upon Universal Rome ) is committed by God to Mahometans . 146. Wherefore take heed of those three frogs , before explained in the Sixth Vial , who by their contrary Opinion , will be generally very pleasing to Sectarians , in maintaining that the Ruin of Mahometans is at the door . Take heed ye do not vainly perswade your selves that the Mahometan Empire will have its period with the expiring of the Dominion of the Watry Trigon , about the year of Christ 1782 , because the said Empire had its first rise under the same ; for Supernatural Prophecy doth assure us , that the Sword of the Mouth , not a bloody one , shall destroy the Mahometan Destroyers of European Rome . 147. A hard Message this is , but yet a very true one ; nor to be feared by any of my Fellow-brethren that follow the words of God! For our God hath pointed out a Pella for his own to retire to in the North , and in the East , in those words which he spoke to Christina Poniatovia , when she was a Figure of this our Sojourning , saying ; Behold I will scatter my People amongst the Nations , and I will send them into a strange Land ! I will lead them out before the storm of my swift Wrath break forth , that they may be preserved when I shall rain down Fire and Brimstone . Wherefore as thou didst flee , so shall they ; many with trembling , not knowing whither to turn themselves ; but I will shew them their way , neither will I take my Mercy from them . And I will give unto them their Spiritual Bread in abundance , even my Holy Word , that with it they may more freely , quietly , and undisturbedly feed and satisfie their Souls : I will moreover add thereunto the Bread of the Body , and all necessaries of Life ; neither will I be wanting to them in any thing , so they do but confide in me , and take me for their Refuge . For my Name is a most strong Tower , if the Righteous flee to me , he shall be saved in the evil day . 148. This our God fulfilled to the Bohemians and Moravians , who , to praefigure our Dispersion , were driven into Exile by the most Antichristian Wickedness of Ferdinand the Second . 149. And our Heavenly Father doth yet daily fulfil it in us , who in a Figure live amongst the Nations , being led forth , and daily more to be led forth , into a strange Land : and the words before alledged will put you upon great thoughts , who do not understand that this our leading forth will be before the breaking forth of the storm of the swift Wrath of the Lord. 150. Will you yet continue to call them Fools whom God hath adorned with his threefold Crown of Wisdom ? Will you proceed to afflict your Fellow-brethren , with your Corporal and Spiritual Imprisonments , whom God will deliver from your Eternal Captivity ? Alas ! open your Eyes ! open them I say : what ye have done to your Fellow-Brethren , ye have done to your selves Temporally , if you be converted , but Eternally , if ye be damned . 151. O Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans and Calvinists , who are now divided by your Sectarian Names , but I hope ere long will be CHRISTIANS with me ! acknowledge your New Babel to be of the same Colour , with Old Papal Babylon , being overcome by so potent a Conviction ! For indeed ye are not able with any Arguments whatsoever , to overthrow this Application of the Revelation , because you cannot apply it any other way in such Harmony . 152. Ye Lutherans have proclaimed Luther to be the Angel of the Eternal Gospel , and have slain your selves with your own Sword , because there are Seven Angels mentioned , corresponding with the Angels of the Seven Vials ; who was then the first of these ? who the Second ? who the Third ? and so forth ; and which of them was Luther ? Answer me : but I know you 'll be silent . 153. John speaks thus concerning the Fourth Angel , answering to Luther : And I saw , and behold a White Cloud , and upon the Cloud one sitting like to the Son of Man , having upon his Head a Golden Crown , and in his Hand a sharp Sickle . 154. To whom I pray can this be applied in Luthers time ? The Devil indeed in Luthers time exerted his strongest endeavours to overthrow the Kingdom of Christ , in the Anababtist Kingdom at Munster ; neither was it without a cause that he mingled these Tares amongst the good Wheat of the Kingdom of Christ , that the Angels of the External and Eternal , Literal and Spiritual Gospel , might not joyn their force together . 155. Where there is Wheat , there commonly also are Tares ▪ where there are true Prophets , there also are false Prophets , which the whole tenor of the Scripture declares : for it is most certain that in the same Age in which Writers give us an account of the rise of so many Diabolical Inspirations , Revelations and Ecstasies ; there were also Divine Inspirations , Revelations , and true Ecstasies . 156. And therefore they were not all Arch-Hereticks , who are so commonly accounted ; but rather Promoters of the Eternal Gospel under their proper Angel , and Fore-runners of the Paradisick Reign of Christ , all which ( being armed with Divine Assistance ) I shall publickly examine in the sight of the World , the Devil in vain raging against it . 157. Neither shall those execrable Heresies , which are almost by a general consent adscrib'd to David George , deter me from an undaunted Defence of his Innocence ; since those things which are brought in against him by Hornius and others , though seemingly proved by his own Writings , have no more truth in them , than had the Pharisees Testimony against Christ about his re-building the Temple in three days . 158. That place of the Revelation hath most truly been fulfilled in the Restorers of the Everlasting Gospel ; where it is said , And none could learn the song , save onely the Hundred forty four thousand who were bought from the Earth : and will yet daily be fulfilled more and more . 159. The Everlasting Gospel , is nothing else but the Everlasting knowledge of the whole Gospel , which never was the same it is now , nor never will be the same it hath been : and in this one line you have the whole foundation of the Everlasting Gospel , which none , under the outward Letter of the Seven Vials , hath , doth , or will be able to understand , without the teaching of the holy Ghost , who is the Dictator of the Everlasting Gospel ; neither will it be fully known to all , until the Seven Plagues of the Seven Angels be finished . 160. As great a difference as there is between the outward Letter of Scripture , and the Spirit of the Letter ; so great is the difference between the Reformers of the outward , and the Reformers of the inward Papacy , as to their knowledge of Scripture . 161. Neither are the failings of each of them to be measured by any other rule ; and the fearful errors which have been publickly exposed under the name of the Eternal Gospel , by mistaken inlightned men , shall be publickly examin'd by me in a Letter , where ( in the strength of Jesus Christ ) all the Antichristian Tenets of the Quakers , and other such like , are totally overthrown . More might be said , than hath been ; and yet more may not be said at present , than hath been . 162. Learn to know your selves , O Lutherans and Reformed , by your fruits : And thou house of Juda in Holland , who art not the least amongst the Reformed Churches , learn to know thy self , by thy mistaken proceedings and actings against Rothe ; know thy self I say , and amend thy mistakes . 163. It was thy duty to have examined Rothe according to the Scriptures , but not to imprison him ? All thy Preachers who deny Prophecy in this our age , and do endeavor to confute the Paradisick Reign of Christ , and the fore-going Conversion of the Turks , Jews and Heathens , to that one Sheepfold of Christendome , are blind Sauls , if their zeal be sincere ; but devillish frogs if maliciously they persist to oppose the truth . 164. Set Rothe , mine and your Brother , at liberty , and after publick prayers , examine him with a burning zeal for truth , taking care above all things that he distinguish , what in his writings is his own , from what hath been dictated to him by God ; adjuring him that he deliver the same without any addition or diminution whatsoever . In those which are his own Writings , bear with his human frailties in Brotherly love ; in his divine Writings you must admit of none ▪ which divine Writings of his you may then compare with the Writings and Prophecies of Kotterus , Christina , Drabicius , Kregel , Herman , immediately received from God , with which they will be found to agree in all main points , if they come from God ; but on the contrary will be found to disagree , in case they proceed from a lying Spirit . 165. Having found their agreement , then be also obedient to God , and rejoyce in that thou art also called ; listening not only to the voice of the Ancient , but also of thy New Prophet . But in case thou findest them to disagree , then commit him to the Mercy of God , and the Prayers of the Church , not to prison , that so thy Christian Charity may re-appear . This is the true way of knowing true Prophets , but the other is Antichristian ; this agrees with the Scripture , the other is contrary to it . 166. I shall conclude , with repeating my hearty wish , that you may be found in the Exercise of the first love , and that you may unanimously agree to flee from Babylon ; and so I commend you , O Pastors , Sheep and Lambs of the Catholick Reformed Church , to the Divine Protection . The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all , Amen . This Writing was finished at B. B. B. near London , 26 of January ( 5 th of February ) 1678. A most Weighty POSTSCRIPT Annexed instead of a Seal , after my safe Return ( through the Grace of God ) from Eastern Rome ( which is Constantinople ) into the North. 1. DEarly beloved , I am about to seal my weighty London Epistle ( which I wrote about Fifteen Months ago for a farewell ( being then ready to take my Journey for Rome ) with the Seals of a most Weighty Postscript , after my safe return into the North , from my Eastern Voyage ; with which Seals it hath pleased the Lord of Hosts to seal the said Letter , in the East as well as in the North. 2. In the East , because the most High hath led me most wonderfully ( according to what he had before shewed to Kotterus , and pointed out the way by the late Comet ) for the space of Five Months , even unto Eastern Rome , for the ruin of Western Rome , at the same time when the Eastern Turk and Northern Moscovite were fiercely engaged together ; and the Book which Christina saw fall from Heaven ( being all covered with Gold , and of a Triangular Form , between the Eastern and Northern Contenders , will ere long be visible to the whole World , to the amazing of the Lions , who by reason of the fierceness of their Contest do not yet see it . 3. In the North , because the Almighty hath there discovered the fatal Decrees and Designs of Western Rome , against his People , for the fatal Frustration of which he had sent me towards Rome of the East ; as also for the fulfilling and promoting of all our Modern Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned ; and He , even He himself , hath been pleased to put his Work in such a forwardness against my return , that at length his People being affrighted with so great dangers , and forced by so many necessities , might double-fill that Cup to the Whore of Rome and Babylon , in which she hath mixed her Poysons for the Destruction of Reformed Israel and Juda. 4. O most accursed Pope ! How will now the Rumours from the East , and from the North affright thee ? Didst thou think to establish thy tottering Throne in London ? sure thou hast forgot what place London is ; but well hast thou done , in so doing , for thou hast destroyed thy self by thine own Blindness . For England in her Wiclef brought forth that Infant which the Church had conceived by Peter Wald of Lions , and the first Spirit is so nearly conjoyn'd with the Seventh , even the Infancy of the Reformed Church , with its Old Age , that it will appear that thou hast hereby hastned thine own Ruin in England . 5. Hence it was , that when at Cadiz ( a place famous amongst Academicks ) I heard the first News of the English Conspiracy ( notwithstanding I was then beset with many Troubles ) I rejoyced with great Joy to see that my Jehova was making way according to his Promises . 6. Hence it was , that when at my first Arrival at Amsterdam , I understood , not onely that one Coleman was one of the chief of the Conspirators , but also that there had been strange reports raised of me in remote places , and particularly at Breslaw , my Birth place , because of the likeness of my Name with his , it raised very various thoughts in me , and at length moved me with indignation ( yet being unmoved ) until at last I found reason to praise again and again so wonderful a providence of God , upon such a special and unlook'd for occasion . 7. Hence it was that at Rotterdam , on the self same day on which Drabicius Fifteen years ago ( after that a Draught of the Seat and Throne of Glory had been presented to him ) had together with the Youth cryed the Cries of a Crier ( 27 [ 17 ] of May 1665 ) I likewise cried again and again the Cries of a Crier , whilst with my outward and inward Eyes I ran over the History of the particulars of this English Conspiracy : indeed I was astonished , and joyfully praised the wonderful , yet visible Direction and Guidance of God amidst the Horror and Dolor of these Modern Commotions . 8. For reading the 81 Articles of Titus Oats his Discovery , which he dedicates to the King himself , I found so great an Agreement between the dates of the Conspirators Transactions , and the time of my Countermotions , for the ruin of the Pope and his Creatures , that it appears I was diametrically oppos'd to them , who , when they intended to subdue London under their Yoke , was from thence to begin my Journey for Constantinople , which will prove so fatal to the Pope and all Romanists , and was at the same time to write this present Letter ( of so great moment ) for a farewell , which during my absence , hath been in vain suppress'd by the self-love of some , because Jehovah hath made it the more remarkable by the shame of those seeming Heroes , who presumed proudly to judge and hinder so great an undertaking . 9. Read , my Brethren , my Fifteen Songs , and mind well their several Dates , and you 'll find that the Truth of Christ hath destroyed the accursed Foundations of Papal Falshood ▪ at the same time when they were most busie to raise them . Review the whole train of Papal Designs , for these last Fifteen years , and with all consider my secret leading centrally opposing them : He thus sporting with me , whose sport is with the Sons of M●n . 10. It was for very great Reasons that our Examined Fore-runner of the wonderful Five , Years , was by a perpetual Dedication presented to the Three Charles's of Europe , viz. To the Lutheran Charles , the Reformed Charles , and the Papal Charles , all at one time , and of one Name defending the three great Names of Religion . 11. As for the Lutheran Charles , he by his many Crosses and Losses , and besides , having been at the very point of Death , hath been exposed as a pleasing Spectacle to the Papists , at the same time when they designed the Murther of the Reformed Charles , by so numerous a knot of Ruffians , and whilst the Papal Charles is taken up with Nuptial Consultations . It is your Duty O Reformed Israel and Juda , to dive more deeply into the secret Designs of the Papacy than hitherto ye have done , which sets you together by the Ears , hiding their Aims under various fallacious pretences and seeming assistances , till at length being tired and weakened through these Wars , ye , are forced to an Agreement , because ye can fight no longer . 12. Quirinus , built Rome , call'd the Inhabitants Quirites and constituted the Feasts called Quirinalia : a Quirinus also is chosen of God to consummate and fulfil the Divine Pleasure upon Rome , the Quirites and Quirinalia . 13. Coleman intended to subject London , the Metropolis , not onely of three Kingdoms , but of all Protestants in General , to the kiss of the Popes Toe , with a Design as black as his Name : Kuhlman on the contrary received London from the most High for his Sixth City , where he might sensibly perceive the Application of the Seven Revelation Spirits , to the end the execrable Papal and Roman Senary 666 , might Eternally amongst all Hellish Spirits abide a Senary 666 , with a Design too , which answers and agrees with his Name . 14. Breslaw was the first place in which Kotterus declared his Prophetical Commands to his Mystical King Frederick , and discovered the Papal Designs of secretly poysoning Gods chosen Servants , by which all other violent and murtherous ways are to be understood : Breslaw also now is the first place from whence all Modern Prophets are opened , unfolded , and applied to you , the chosen ones of the East and North , at a time when the malicious Plots of the Papists appear again to the Terror of the World. 15. Wherefore at length learn to be wise , and own Gods Visiting of you by his Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned , and with serious thoughts consider the Historical Application of the Vials in this present Epistle , which is the one onely mean to recover the true Unity of the Reformed Churches , and their first Love : For let the cursed Pope know , That this very Epistle shall yet strike him with more Horror than an Army of an Hundred thousand Warriours ; and five smooth Stones taken out of the Valley of the Prophets , which I have put into the Scrip of this Writing , will be sufficient in my Sling , to destroy him in the Name of the Lord of Hosts , according to the Prophets . 16. And as for you Wiclef-Waldenses , Hussites , Zuinglians , Lutherans and Calvinists , my most dear Fellow-brethren , joyn all your Forces together , and call a GENERAL COVNCIL , wherein you may examine , follow , and fulfil the Writings of your Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned ; and as for all the Grievances and Scruples which are yet found amongst you , since they owe their rise onely to Prejudices and opinionative Conceits , they will in due time fall of themselves . It is most true , because under the pouring forth of your Plagues , so much matter hath been made for more Plagues , that the Papal Fury before its own fall will threaten yours , as hath been Prophesied , but the Almighty will turn it by , of which this Writing may give you a fore-taste . 17. Take heed of rejecting ( as hitherto most Antichristianly ye have done ) what ye never read or understood , but examine all in the Gold-Ballance of Scripture , according to the Literal and Spiritual sense of the Holy Spirit ; examine , I say , those who are Spiritual Spiritually ; and those that are Literal Literally , and all Antichristian Mistakes will presently discover themselves . The Literal sense of the Scripture is but one , whereas the Spiritual and Mystical sense is a thousand-fold ; and to confound the Literal sense , with such infinite Mysteries of the Spiritual sense , as some Carnal Academicks do , must needs produce a strange Confusion . 18. The Prophets , Wise men , and Scripture-learned , do often seem to contradict one another , when their Literal sense is not clearly distinguished from their Mystical : and Prophets indeed , at all times , because of Conditions expressed or implied , and because of the riddle of the mystical future sense , as to places , persons , and times , have been suspected of falshood , by Carnal and Literal Men , are , and will be so , until a corresponding event oblige posterity to esteem and revere their Prophecies . 19. Have not the Modern Prophets of this Age in their own days , as well as at this present , been suspected of falshood and little regarded , because of the darkness of their words , and the seeming Contrariety of Events ? But what will ye say if amongst such differing and at divers times appearing Prophets , who all lived before I was called or inlightened ( whose Names I have here and there alledged in these and other Writings ) ye shall read and hear that these following 28 Particulars ( all which point at me individually , and have their proper fulfilling at this very time ) were fore-told , as it were with one Mouth ; viz. My Father , Mother , the Year , Month and Day of my Birth , my Malignant Constellation , my Christian Name , Name and Surname , my Countrey , City , Ascendant , the Year and Month when I was inlightned , the Year of the Holland Motion , my Seal , Learning , Writings , leaving of the Vniversities , my rejecting the Degree of Doctor , my restoring of Scripture , unsealing of the Prophets , my Voyage to Constantinople , my hasting , and fall thereby occasioned , my foster Mother a Widow , my doubled five Years time , and lastly my Age of Twenty eight Years . 20. All which things I intend , if God permit , to publish in their due place and time , to the Glory of God , the Confirmation of the Prophets , the Terror of the Pope , the Instruction of all , and the quieting of my own Conscience , in so many doubtful Cases ; though the Angel of Sathan who buffets me day and night for the superabundance of Revelations , doth so much endeavour to suppress it , that by reason of so great loads wherewith I am burthened by my self , my Friends and Enemies , I scarce know my self , nor am able to serve my self or others . 21. What I have said concerning the one Mouth of the Prophets in their fore-telling of my Call , the same I affirm concerning all other Matters ; and I have abundantly demonstrated the Unity and Truth of the Numbers of Kotterus and Drabicius , in the Treatise I wrote at Smirna , intituled , The Mystery of Kotterus his 21 Weeks . And to adde further weight , for a weighty Enquiry into these Mysteries , I will here set down three Capital Concordant places , which in few words contain great and weighty Matter , and from which so great a Light will appear in and out of darkness , as will be abundantly sufficient to establish the Authority of the Revelation of these Revelation Commentaries . 22. The first place shall be that of Drabicius , Rev. 395. Count the number of the 70 Weeks from the day of my Departure , if thou hast Vnderstanding , where an end must be made of the days of Battels and Wars which are at present ; for when they shall cry out Peace and Security , I will come to execute Judgment , the time of times and half a time drawing to an end . The 70 Weeks of Daniel ( concerning which the Revealer had said before , that he was come before they were ended ) do end in the 37 year after his Birth ; from which time of his Departure , if you again count those 490 yearly Weeks , they point us to the Year 527 , and to the Antichristian Birth of that cursed Body of the Civil Law , compiled in the Reign of Justinian the Emperor , when the one time of the Apocalyptical Dragon began , even in the year 527 ; his two times began in the year 887 , and his half time 1607 , whose end will be in the year 1787 , when the 1260 Apocalyptical years will be ended . 23. The second place is that of Kotterus , Chap 1● . v. 40. Where he begins to reckon the half time of the two Treaders-down , from the Year 1260 , as the Original sheweth ( the Translation being faulty here , as in many other places ) according to which one time begins with the Year of Christ 612 , Two times at the Year 948 , and Half a Time at 1620 , which accordingly expires with the year 1788 ; which Half Time being 168 Years , do agree with the 21 Weeks of Kotterus , which makes 147 Years , and end in the year of Christ 1768 , which time is aenigmatically , yet most truly and clearly discovered under the Number of the Years 1620 and 1624. Whatsoever therefore the Holy Scripture hath fore-told concerning the Papal and Turkish State under the Time , Times , and Half a Time , of 1176 Years , will be fully accomplished in the Year 1688. 24. The third and last place is that of Kotterus , Chap. 24. ver . 50 , being the most notable of all : These are the times of the Woundings of the Beast : Take Notice of these that follow , 1329 , 1428 , 1527 , 1626 , about these times it must be fulfilled , Seven Years backward , and Three Years after . These numbers contain each of them 42 , being thus placed one above another . 13 14 15 16 29 28 27 26 42 42 42 42 The two Angels command him to reckon Seven Years backward , and Three Years after , and tell him that every one of these 14 Numbers contain 42 , being placed as before , which is the true Key to underderstand these Numbers . The Seven Years numbred backwards , are 1230 , 1131 , 1032 , 933 , 834 , 735 , 636 ; and the Three Years after , 1725 , 1824 , 1923 , every one of which Numbers ( which is wonderful ) contains 42 , being placed as the Angel appointed , thus , 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 17 18 19 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 25 24 23 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 25. These three places will abundantly bear witness of the Harmony of these Numbers , and of the mistakes of all those who hitherto have interpreted them , and I should have been afraid of opening this last place ( which takes so large a compass ) but that I read in the Prophets themselves , that it is lawful at present to unlock that Mystery of Numbers : For the 1176 years of the Two Witnesses expired Five Years since , and their 1260 Year-days , and Solar Months , which are expresly allotted to them in the Revelations , will according to the same Explication , end with the Year 1685 , after another double Quinary is past . And in this regard the First Day begins with the Year of Christ 425 , the Second with 785 , the Third with 1145 , the Fourth with 1505. So that both according to the Solar and Lunar Months , the determined time of the Two Witnesses is come ; and now that is fulfilled , The Spirit of Life from God came upon them , and they stood on their Feet , and a great Fear fell upon those that saw them ; this present Epistle witnessing to the truth of it . 26. And you 'll easily know the reason why the Numbers extend themselves as far as 1923 , so you do not confound the time of the Sixth Vial with the Seventh : Now the end of the Sixth Vial is the total Exclusion of the cursed Pope , the Period of the Four Monarchies , and the full Conversion of the Turks ; upon which shall immediately follow that interval of the Seventh Vial , in which the Universal Conversion of all Nations shall be carried on , and way made for the Thousand Years Apocalyptical Reign . 27. All the Confusion which hitherto hath been amongst the Good as well as the Bad , hath proceeded from the Ignorance of these Vials ; the material Object of the Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned of the Sixth Vial , being the 17th Chap. of the Revelations , whose chief Contents is , Come hither , I will shew thee , the Judgment of the great Whore , who sits upon many Waters : but that of the Prophets , Wise-men , and Scripture-learned , of the Seventh Vial , is the 21 and 22 Chap. of the Revelations , whose main scope is , Come hither , I will shew thee the Woman , the Bride of the Lamb. This one thing is sufficient to overthrow all erroneous Opinions , about Modern Prophecies , and to shew the difference of the Sixth and Seventh Vials ; the former of which doth chiefly Prophecy concerning the Judgment which is to pass upon the Pope ; the later concerning the Reign of Christ , and the utter overthrow of all other Kingdoms . Those very words , Come hither I will shew thee , do fundamentally declare , that there will be a calling of Prophets under the Sixth and Seventh Vials ; neither do they understand the Letter , and Historical Context of Scripture , who do not understand the Emphasis of these words , Come hither I will shew thee . 28. It remains yet that I should speak concerning the Angel of the Seventh Vial , and of other Applications of the Modern Prophets , of the secret Designs of the Papacy , to destroy the English , Dutch , French , German , and all other Protestants , which are hinted at by the Prophets ; and many other such like Matters , were I not to keep my self within the limits of a Postscript . And you O Pastors , Sheep and Lambs of the Reformed Israel and Juda , weigh in the equal Ballance of Christian Truth , what hath been here propounded to you , and do not kick away your Salvation , least at last ye be wise too late . The Grace of Jesus Christ the onely begotten Son of the Living God , be with you , and with us . Amen . This Postscript was written at Rotterdam the 26th of May ( 5th June ) in the Year 1679. FINIS . ERRATA . P. L.     23 8 Read Lutheran . 26 27 your . 28 3 days . 31 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 32 17 unaccustomed . 50 4 the Catechisms of Luther , Embden , Bohemia , Poland , the Palatinate , Geneva , and Augspurg , These following Books of the Author will be translated into English with all convenient speed : 1. THe Fore-runner of the wonderful Five years examined . 2. Ten London Epistles , of which the present Epistle is the Ninth . 3. The Lilly-Rose-sprout , or Behmen New-spirited . 4. The Lilly-rose-bud . 5. The 1st . 2d . 3d. and 4th . Book of Songs . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A47594-e220 1st . day 499 , 2d . day , 835 , 3d. day 1171 , 4th . day 1505 ; which ends at the year 1674. [ See Sect. 101 , 102 , 103. ] See v. 59. * The number Five . See Sect. 59 and 102. 
A53667	----	A brief and impartial account of the nature of the Protestant religion its present state in the world, its strength and weakness, with the wayes and indications of the ruine or continuance of its publick national profession / by a Protestant. Owen, John, 1616-1683. 1682 Approx. 72 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A53667 Wing O716 ESTC R11764 13014537 ocm 13014537 96530 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A53667) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 96530) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 394:12) A brief and impartial account of the nature of the Protestant religion its present state in the world, its strength and weakness, with the wayes and indications of the ruine or continuance of its publick national profession / by a Protestant. Owen, John, 1616-1683. 40 p. Printed by J.A., and are to be sold by Benjamin Alsop ..., London : 1682. Written by John Owen. Cf. BM. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-05 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Brief and Impartial ACCOUNT OF THE NATURE OF THE Protestant Religion : IT S PRESENT STATE IN THE WORLD , ITS STRENGTH and WEAKNESS , WITH THE Wayes and Indications of the Ruine or Continuance of its Publick National Profession . By a Protestant . LONDON , Printed by J. A. and are to be Sold by Benjamin Alsop at the Angel and Bible in the Poultrey , 1682. THE STATE and FATE OF THE Protestant Religion : THE World is at this day filled with discourses about the Protestant Religion , and the Profession of it ; and that not without cause . The publick Opposition that is made unto it , the Designs that are managed with Policy and Power for it's utter Extirpation , and the Confidence of many that they will take Effect , must needs fill the minds of them whose Principal Interest and concerns lye in it , with many Thoughts about the Event . Never was there a greater Cause brought on the Stage for a Tryal . A Cause wherein the Glory of God is concerned above any thing at this day in the World. A Cause wherein the most Eminent prevailing Powers of the Earth are visibly ingaged as unto its Ruine ; and whereunto all the Diabolical Arts of men are employed . A cause wherein those who embrace that Religion , do judge that not only their Lives , but the Eternal welfare of them and their Posterity is inevitably concerned . This cannot but fill the minds of all men with various conjectures about the Issue of these things , according as their Interest works in them by Hopes and Fears . Some of them therefore do Endeavour by their Counsels and other wayes for the Preservation and Continuance of this Protestant Religion amongst our selves , according as they have an Accession unto publick Affairs ; And some whose Lot is cast into a private capacity , do engage Faith and Prayer unto the same purpose . The Enemies of it in the mean time are powerful , active and restless ; many amongst us being uncertain in their minds , as not resolved where to fix their Interest , and a greater multitude like Gallio , care for none of these things . This being a matter therefore wherein all men , who have any sence of Religion , are so deeply concerned , it may not be unseasonable , Briefly to enquire what is this Protestant Religion which is so contended about ; what is it's present State in the World ; What it 's Strength and Weakness as unto it's publick Profession , and what is like to be the Issue of the present contest . This is that which the ensuing Leaves are designed unto ; and it is hoped they may be of use unto some , to extricate their minds from involved fruitless Thoughts , to direct them in their Duty and to bring them unto an acquiescency in the Will of God. The Protestant Religion may be considered either as it is Religion in General , that is , Christan Religion ; or as it is distinct from and opposite unto another pretended Profession of the same Religion , whereon it is called Protestant . In the first sence of it , it derives it's Original from Christ and his Apostles . What they taught to be believed , what they commanded to be observed in the Worship of God ; All of it and nothing but that , is the Protestant Religion . Nothing else belongs unto it , in nothing else is it concerned . These , therefore are the Principles of the Religion of Protestants , whereinto their Faith and Obedience are resolved 1. What was revealed unto the Church by the Lord Christ and his Apostles , is the whole of that Religion which God will and doth accept . 2. So far as is needful unto the Faith , Obedience and Eternal Salvation of the Church , what they taught , revealed and commanded , is contained in the Scriptures of the New Testament , witnessed unto and confirmed by those of the Old. 3. All that is required of us that we may please God , be accepted with him , and come to the Eternal Enjoyment of him , is that we truely believe what is so revealed and taught , yielding sincere Obedience unto what is commanded in the Scriptures . Upon these Principles , Protestants confidently propose their Religion unto the Tryal of all mankind . If in any thing it be found to deviate from them , if it exceeds in any Instance what is so revealed , taught and commanded ; If it be defective in the Faith or Practice of any thing that is so revealed or commanded , they are ready to renounce it . Here they live and dye , from this Foundation they will not depart : This is their Religion . And if these Principles will not secure us , as unto our present acceptance with God in Religion , and the Eternal Enjoyment of him , he hath left all Mankind at an utter uncertainty to make a blind venture for an invisible World ; which is altogether inconsistent with his Infinite Wisdom , Goodness and Benignity . Being in possession of these Principles of Truth and Security from Christ and his Apostles , it belongs unto the Protestant Religion not to change or forgo them , and to repose our confidence in the Infallibility or Authority of the Pope of Rome , or of the Church whereof he is the Head. For these Principles of Assurance are such as every way become the Wisdom and Goodness of God ; and such as that our Nature is not capable in this life , of those which are higher , or of a more illustrious Evidence . Let the contrary unto either of these be demonstrated , and we will renounce the Protestant Religion . To forgo them for such as are irreconcilable unto Divine Wisdom and Goodness , as also to the common Reason of Mankind , is an effect of the highest Folly and of strong Delusion . For that all Mankind should be obliged to place all their Confidence and Assurance of pleasing God , of living unto him , and coming unto the Enjoyment of him for Eternity , on the Pope of Rome and his Infallibility , however qualified and circumstantiated , considering what these Popes are and have been , is Eternally irreconcilable unto the Greatness , Wisdom , Love and Kindness of God ; as also unto the whole Revelation made of himself by Jesus Christ. The Principles of Protestant Religion before mentioned , do every way become , are highly suited unto the Nature and Goodness of God. No man living shall ever be able to instance in one Tittle of them , that is not correspondent with Divine Goodness and Wisdom . But on the first naming of this other way , no man who knows any thing what the Pope is , and what is his Church , if he be not blinded with Prejudice and Interest , will be able to Satisfie himself that it is consistent with Infinite Goodness and Wisdom to commit the Salvation of Mankind , which he values above all things , unto such a Security . Neither hath this latter way any better consistency with Humane Wisdom , or the common Reason of Mankind ; namely , that those who are known , many of them to be better and wiser men than those Popes , should resolve their Religion , and therein their whole Assurance of pleasing God , with all their hopes of a blessed Eternity , into the Authority and Infallibility of the Pope and his Church ; Seeing many of them , the most of them , especially for some Ages , have been Persons wicked , ignorant , proud , sensual and brutish in their Lives . This then is the Foundation of the Protestant Religion , in that it is built on those Principles , which are every way suited unto the Divine Nature and Goodness , as also satisfactory unto Humane Reason ; with a refusal of them which are unworthy of infinite Wisdom to give , and the ordinary Reason of men to admit or receive . Secondly , as the name Protestant is distinctive with respect unto some other pretended profession of Christian Religion ; so it derives this denomination from them who in all Ages after the Apostasie of the Church of Rome came to be expresly Antichristian , departed from the Communion of it , opposed it , reformed themselves , and set up the true Worship of God according unto the Degrees and measures of Gospel Light which they had received . This was done successively in a long tract of Time through sundry Ages , until by an Accession of Multitudes , Princes and People , unto the same Profession , they openly testified and Protested against the Papal Apostasie and Tyranny , whence they became to be commonly called Protestants . And the Principles whereon they all of them proceeded from first to last , which constitute their Religion as Protestant , were these that follow . 1. That there are in the Scripture , Prophesies , Predictions and Warnings , especially in the Book of the Revelation , and the Second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians , that there should be a great Apostasie or Defection in the visible Church from the Faith , Worship and Holiness of the Gospel ; and in Opposition unto what was appointed of Christ , the Erection of a worldly , Carnal , Antichristian Church-state , composed of Tyranny , Idolatry and Persecution , which should for a long time Oppress the true Worshippers of Christ with Bloody Cruelty , and at last be it self consumed with the Spirit of his Mouth , and destroyed by the Brightness of his coming . This Defection was so plainly foretold , as also the beginning of it in a Mystery of Iniquity designed even in the dayes of the Apostles , that Believers in all Ages did expect the accomplishment of it by the Introduction of an Antichristian State and Power , though the manner of it was hidden from them , until it was really fulfilled . I say from the dayes of the Apostles , and the giving out of those Prophesies and Predictions of the coming of Antichrist and an Apostate Church State with him , all Christians in all Ages , did believe and expect that it should come , until it 's real coming in a way and manner unexpected confounded their apprehensions about it . 2. Their second Principle as Protestants was , that this Defection and Antichristian Church State so plainly foretold by the Holy Ghost in the Scriptures , was openly and visibly accomplished in the Church of Rome , with the Nations that had Subjected themselves unto the Yoke thereof . Therein they found and saw , all that Tyranny and Oppression , all that Pride and self Exaltation above every thing that hath the Name of God upon it , all that Idolatry and false Worship , all that departure from the Faith of the Gospel , all that contempt of Evangelical Obedience , which were foretold to come in under , and constitute the fatal Apostasie . 3. Hereon their third Principle was , that as they valued the Glory of God , the Honour of Christ and the Gospel , their own Salvation , and the Good of the Souls of others , they were obliged to forsake and renounce all Communion with that Apostate Church , though they saw that their so doing , would cost many of them their dearest Blood , or Lives . 4. They were convinced hereon , that it was their Duty publickly to Protest against all those Abominations , to Reform themselves as unto Faith , Worship and Conversation , according unto the Rules before laid down , as those that are Fundamental unto Christian Religion . These were the Principles whereon Christian Religion as it is Protestant , was reintroduced into the World , after it had been not only obscured , but almost excluded out of it , as unto it's publick Profession . And these Principles are avowed by all true Protestants , as those whereon they are ready at all times , to put their Cause and Profession on the Trial. The Way whereby the Profession of this Protestant Religion was introduced on these Principles and made publick in the World under the Antichristian Apostasie , was the same whereby Christian Religion entred the World under Paganisme ; Namely , by the Prayers , Preaching , Writings , Sufferings and Holiness of Life of them who embraced it and were called to promote it . And herein their Sufferings for the number of them that suffered , and variety of all Cruel Preparations of Death , are inexpressible . It is capable of a full Demonstration ▪ that those who were Slain by the Sword and otherwise destroyed for their Testimony unto Christ and the Gospel , in opposition unto the Papal Apostasie and Idolatry , did far exceed the number of them that Suffered for the Christian Religion in all the Pagan Persecutions of Old. A Plant so soaked and Watered with the Blood of the Martyrs , will not be so easily plucked up as some Imagine . Nay it is probable it will not go out without more blood ( of sufferers I mean ) than it was introduced by ; which yet no man knows how to conceive or express . But it had no sooner fixed its Profession in some Nations , but it was loaden with all manner of Reproaches , charged with all the Evils that fell out in the World after its entrance ; and by all sorts of Arts and pretences rendred suspected and hateful unto Princes and Potentates . Whatever is Evil in or unto Mankind , especially unto the Interest of great men , was with great Noise and Clamour charged on it . For so it was in the first entrance of the Christian Religion under Paganisme . There was neither Plague nor Famine , nor Earthquake , nor Inundation of Water , nor War , nor Invasion by Enemies , but all was charged on that New Religion . And the Reason hereof was , not only the Hatred of the Truth through the Love of Sin and Unrighteousness , and an ingrafted power of Superstition through blind Devotion , but Principally because for a long Tract of Time , the whole of the Profession of Religion had been suited unto the Secular Interests of men , supplying them under various pretences , with Power , Domination , Territories , Titles , Revenues , Wealth , Ease , Grandeur , and Honour , with an Insinuation into and power over the Consciences of all sorts of Persons ; a thing very desirable to men of corrupt Minds , and easily turned into an Engine unto very bad and pernicious Ends. That the whole Complex , and all it's parts in their various motions and Operations , of the Christian Religion in the Papacy , is framed and fitted unto these Ends , so as to give satisfaction unto all corrupt and Ambitious desires in men , is palpable unto all that are not wilfully blind . But this Protestant Religion so introduced , stated the Interest of Christian Religion in a way and design utterly inconsistent herewith and destructive of it . And this was to give all Glory and Honour to God and Christ alone , and to teach the Guides of the Church to be Humble , Holy , Zealous Ensamples of the Flock , utterly renouncing all Secular power and Domination , with Territories , Titles and great Revenues on the account of their Office , and the Discharge of it . And was it any Wonder that those who were in possession of three parts of the Power , and a third part of the Revenue of most Nations in Europe , should look on this Principle as the Worst of Devils , and so represent it , as to frighten above half the Monarchs of these Nations from once looking steadily upon it , whereby they might have easily discovered the cheat that was put upon them . And thus was it with the first Planters of Christian Religion with respect unto the Pagans , Act. 19. 27. But herein many labour to make a difference between the Introduction of Religion under Paganisme , and the Reformation of it under Antichristianisme . For they say that the first Professors of Christian Religion for three hundred Years endured their Persecutions with all patience , never once stirring up either Wars or Commotions in the defence of their Profession . But since , upon and after the Introduction of Protestant Religion , there have been many Tumults and Disorders , many popular Commotions and Wars which have been caused thereby . For if all the Professors of it had quietly suffered themselves to have been killed with the Sword , or hanged , or burned , or tortured to death in the Inquisition , or starved in Dungeons ( and more was not required of them ) there would have been no such Wars about Religion in the World. For their Enemies intended nothing but to destroy them in peace and quietness , without the least disturbance unto the Civil Rule among men . I say this Difference did not arise from any difference in the Religion of the One and the Other , nor of the Principles of those by whom they were professed . But it hath proceeded from External causes and circumstances , that were greatly different between the Primitive Christians and the Protestants in some places and Nations . For the Primitive Christians , whose Story we have , were all of them placed in and Subject unto one Empire . In that whole Empire and all the Provinces of it , there was not one Law , Custom or Usage giving the least countenance unto Right of Protection of Liberty . There was not one Prince , Ruler , Senate , Governour , that had the least pretence of legal Right to protect or defend them in their Profession against the Will and Law of the Emperour or Empire . The outward Rights of Religion were no way allied in any thing unto the Civil Rights of men . However numerous therefore the Christians were in those dayes , they were all absolutely private persons without pretence of Law or Right to defend themselves ; in which state of things it is the undoubted Principle of all Protestants , that where men are persecuted meerly on the account of Religion without Relation unto the Civil Rights and Liberties of Mankind , their duty is patiently to Suffer without the least Resistance . But it hath been otherwise upon the Reformation and since . For the Protection and Preservation of Religion was taken up by sundry Potentates , free Princes and Cities , who had a legal Right and Power to protect themselves and their Subjects in the Profession of it . It hath been and is at this day incorporated into the Laws , Rights and Interests of sundry Nations , which ought to be defended . And no instance can be given of any people defending themselves in the Profession of the Protestant Religion by Arms , but where together with their Religion their Enemies did design and endeavour to destroy those Rights , Liberties and Priviledges , which not only the Light of Nature , but the Laws and Customs of their several Countreys did secure unto them as a part of their Birth-right Inheritance . And in some places though the name of Religion hath been much used on the one side and the other ; yet it hath been neither the Cause nor Occasion of the Wars and Troubles that have been in them . And this makes their case utterly different from that of the Primitive Christians . This Religion being thus reinstated in many Nations , it brought forth fruit in them , even as the Gospel did at its first preaching in the places whereinto it came , Col. 1. 6. It brought forth fruit in them by whom it was received , such as is the proper Fruit of Religion ; Namely it did so in Light , Knowledge , Truth , in Holiness , in the real Conversion of Multitudes unto God , in Good Works , in the Spiritual Comfort of Believers in Life and Death , with all other fruits of Righteousness which are to the praise of God. Thereby also was the Worship of God vindicated from Idolatry and Superstition , and restored in many places unto it's Primitive Simplicity and Purity . It brought also no small Advantage even unto those Nations , both Princes and their Subjects , by whom the Profession thereof was never received ; as Christian Religion also did of Old unto the Pagan World. For hereby it is that the Kings and Potentates of Christendom , even those of the Roman Profession , have much eased themselves of that Intolerable yoke of Bondage that was on them unto the Popes pretended Power and his Impositions . For whilest all Nations were in Subjection to him , it was at their utmost hazard that any one King or State should contend with him about any of his Demands or Assumptions . For he could stir up what Nation he pleased , and give them sufficient Encouragement to avenge his Quarrels on Rebellious Princes , which he also did in Instances innumerable . But since so many Nations fell off from all dependance on him and Subjection to him by the Light and Profession of the Protestant Religion , there is a Ballance of Power against him , and an awe upon him in his Presumptions , lest he should be dealt withall by others in the like manner . Had these Western parts of the World continued under a Superstitious Sense of a Fealty and Obedience in all things due to the Pope , as they were before the Reformation , the King of France himself should not so easily have rejected his personal Infallibility and Jurisdiction as he seems to have done ; But he hath now no way left to avenge himself but Assassinations , which at this time may prove of very evil consequence unto himself . Wherefore the Princes of Europe , as well those by whom the Protestant Religion is not embraced , yea is opposed and persecuted , as those by whom it is received , seem not so sensible of the Benefit and Advantage which doth accrew unto them all thereby . For from thence alone it is , with the Interest and Power which it hath obtained in the World , that they are freed in their Minds and in their Rule , from as base a Servitude and Bondage , as ever persons under their Denomination were Subject unto . The common People also who yet continue in the Communion of the Papal Church , have received no small advantage by that Effectual Light which shines in the World from the Principles of this Religion , even where it is not received . For from the Fear of the Discoveries to be made by it , hath a Curb been put upon the flagitious Lives of the Priests and Friars , wherewith all places were defiled ; Shame also with Necessity having stirred them up to deliver themselves in some measure from their old stupid Ignorance . Many Retrenchments have been made also in some of the most Gross parts of Idolatry , that were for many Ages in General practice among them . And they are hereby also in some good measure freed from the Terror of evil Spirits wherewith they were continually haunted . For before the Reformation , Possessions , Apparitions , Sprights , Ghosts , Fiends , with silly Miracles about them , fill'd all Places , and were a great Annoyance unto the common people . Somewhat there was no doubt of the Juggling of Priests in these things , and somewhat of the Agency of the Devil , each of them making use of the other to further their own designs . But upon the first preaching of the Gospel , there was an Abatement made of these things in all places , which hath gone on , until they are every where grown the matter of Scorn and Contempt . This Religion being thus planted , and producing these Effects , the House of Austria in both the Branches of it , the Imperial and the Regal , espoused the Antichristian Interest and Quarrel against it , and for Eighty years or thereabouts , endeavoured by all wayes of Force and Cruelty its utter extirpation . What immense Treasures of Wealth they have spent and wasted , what an Ocean of blood they have shed , both of their own Subjects and others in the pursuit of this Design , cannot be well conceived . But what hath been the Issue of all their undertakings to this End ? They have so far broken themselves and their Power in their obstinate pursuit of them , that those who not long since thought of nothing less than an universal Monarchy , are forced to seek unto Protestant States and Nations , to preserve them from immediate Ruine . So vain , foolish and fruitless for the most part are the deep Counsels and Projections of men , so destructive and ruinous unto themselves in the Issue , when their Desires and Designs are enlarged beyond the Bounds which Right and Equity have fixed unto them ; especially will they be so , when they are found fighting against God and his Interest in the World. And if the same Design be now pursued by another , it will in time come unto the same Catastrophe . I shall not speak any thing of the present State of this Protestant Religion , as unto it's Political Interests in the World. It is in general known to most , and hath been particularly enquired into by many . I shall only briefly consider something of it's Weakness , it 's Danger , and what is like to be the Issue of it , as unto it's publick Profession in the World , which are the Subjects of many mens daily converse . The Political Weakness of the Protestant Religion ariseth solely from the Divisions that are among them by whom it is professed . And these are of two sorts . First , such as are of a Civil nature amongst Princes and States ; And Secondly , such as are Religious among Divines and Churches . As unto the first of these , some good men who value Religion above all their earthly Concerns , measuring other Men , even Princes , who profess Religion , by themselves , have been almost astonished that there is not such a thing as a Protestant Interest so prevalent amongst them , as to subordinate all particular Contests and Designings unto it self . But whereas there was formerly an Appearance of some such thing , which had no small Influence on publick Counsels , and produced some Good useful Effects ; at present it seems to be beyond hopes of a revival , and is of little consideration in the World. Could such a thing be expected , that the Nations and the Powers of them which publickly profess the Protestant Religion , should avow the preservation and protection of it to be their principal Interest , and regulate their Counsels accordingly , giving this the preheminence in all things , their Adversaries would be content to dwell quietly at home , without offering much at their disturbance . But these things are not of my present consideration , nor do I think that any sort of men shall have the Glory of preserving the Interest of Christ in the World ; he will do it himself . Again , the Religious Differences that are amongst them as Churches , do weaken the Political Interest of Protestants . They have done so from the very beginning of the Reformation . And when the first Differences among them were in some measure digested and brought unto some tolerable composure , about sixty years ago there was an inrode made on the Doctrine that had been received among the Reformed Churches by Novel Opinions , which hath grown unto this day to the great weakning of the whole Interest . And as far as I can see , it is in vain to disswade men from contending about their small Allotments in the House , or it may be but some supposed Appurtenances of them , whilest others are visibly digging at the Foundation to oppress them all with the fall of the whole Fabrick . In these things lyes the Sole outward Political Weakness of the Protestant Interest in the World , whose direful Effects God alone can prevent . We may hereon Enquire , what at present is like to be the Issue and event of this Protestant Religion as unto it's publick Profession in the World. For the Adversaries of it do every day discover not only their Desires and Endeavours for its extirpation , but their Expectations also of its speedy ruine . They suppose the time is come when that Heresie , as they call it , which hath so long infested the Northern Nations , shall by their Arts , Contrivances and Power be utterly rooted out . And it is known that those Discoveries of their minds and hopes herein , which have occasionally come unto Light amongst us , are but Indications of those Counsels and Combinations in other places and among other persons , whereby their Hopes are to be accomplished . And if it were unto our present purpose , much might be offered to manifest that those Consultations and Contrivances which are constant in the managers of the Papal Interest both at Rome and elsewhere , for the utter Extirpation of the Protestant Religion , have been Ordered , disposed and cast into such methods , as not only to stir up all means of Expedition , but also with respect unto a speedy immediate Execution . We shall therefore briefly enquire , by what way and means this may be effected , or what is like to give this Design an accomplishment , giving every thing its due weight and Consideration ; for what the event will be God only knows . The Ruine of the Protestant Religion as unto it's publick Profession , must be either by a general Defection from it , or by a Force upon it ; or by a Reconciliation and Coalesceny with the Roman Church . This Defection must be either of the Princes , or of the Clergy , or of the People or of them all in Conjunction . Of the first , or the Defection of Princes unto the Papacy we have had some instances in the last Age , but scarce of any who have been absolutely Soveraign or Supream ; unless it be of one , who together with her Religion , wisely and honestly left her Crown . But I suppose there lyeth here no great danger or fear as to Kings , or such as on whose Authority the Profession of Religion in their Dominions doth much depend . For they are too wise to be weary of their present station and Liberty . Who can suppose that any of them would be willing to stand at the Gates of the Popes Palace bare-foot , for a Night and a Day , and be Disciplin'd to boot , as it was with one of the greatest Kings of England ? or to hold the Popes Stirrup , whilest he mounted his Horse , and be rebuked for want of Breeding in holding it on the wrong side ? or would they lye on the Ground , and have their Necks trod upon by the Pope , which a Couragious Emperour was forced to submit unto ? or have their Crowns kick't from their Heads by the foot of a Legate ? or be Assassinated for not promoting the Papal Interest in the way and mode of them concerned , as it was with two Kings of France ? It will be said , that these things are past and gone , the Popes have now no such power as formerly ; and the Kings that are of the Roman Church , do live as free from Impositions on them by the pretensions of Papal Power , as any Kings on the Earth . But supposing such a change , and that the King of France , as great as he is , do find in the Issue that there is such a change , yet if we do not know the Reasons of it , they do . Is it because the maintainers of the Papacy have changed their Principles and Opinions in this matter ? Is it that they have disclaimed the Power and Authority which they exercised in former Ages ? Is it from any Abatement of the Papal Omnipotency in their Judgment ? Do they think that the Popes had not Right to do what they did in those dayes , or that they have not yet Right to do the like again ? It is none of those nor any Reason of this : sort that is the cause of the pretended Change. The true and only Reason of it , is the ballancing of their power by the Protestant Interest . So many Kings , Princes Potentates , States and Nations being not only fallen off from that blind Obedience and Subjection wherein they were universally enthralled unto them in those dayes , but ready to oppose them in all their attempts to Execute their pretended Power , they are forced for a Season to lower their Sayls , and to pluck in those Horns wherewith formerly they pushed Kings and Princes unto their Ruine . Should there be a Restauration of their Power and Interest in the minds of men , which would ensue on the Extirpation of the Protestant Religion , the greatest Kings of Europe should quickly find themselves yoked and over-matched both in their own Dominions , and by such as will be ready to Execute their Designs . And on this Supposition , they will cross all Experience of former Ages , if having weathered their Difficulties and Conquered their opposers , they be not more haughty and secure in the Execution of their Power and pretended Office , than ever they were before . Whatever Delusion therefore may befall Soveraign Princes in their personal Capacities , none of them can be so forsaken of common Understanding , as not to see that by a Defection unto the Papacy , they bring a Bondage on themselves and their Subjects , from which God by his Providence through the Light and Truth of the Protestant Religion had set them free . And it is certain enough that there is at this day so much rational Light diffused in the World , that even those who on various inducements may comply with any of them in the Reintroduction of Popery into any of their Territories , will quickly find what condition of Slavery and contempt they have brought themselves into , and thereon make the new posture of Affairs very uneasie to themselves and their Rulers . Yea ▪ no sort of men will be given up unto more furious Reflections , first on themselves , and then on others , than they will be , when they find themselves ensnared . Those who on such occasions have neither deceived themselves , nor suffered themselves to be deceived by others , may enjoy a sedate Tranquillity of mind , in all that shall befall them . But these when they have digested the shame of being deluded , will be restless in their Minds , and intent on new occasions . I suppose therefore there is no great danger to be feared on this hand , and if there should , that the Event of Counsels mixed with so much madness and ingratitude will be a suddain Catastrophe . And as unto the Clergy , there can be no Defection amongst them , unless it be from a Weariness of their present Station , upon the Principles of the Protestant Religion . For they have most of them too much Light to be corrupted any way but by Interest . Now the Principles intended are these two . ( 1. ) That the Reverence which they claim , and the Revenues which they possess , are not due unto them meerly on the account of their Offices and the Titles which they bear , but on that of their Faithful discharge of their Office in diligent Laborious Preaching of the Gospel , and Sedulous Endeavours for the Conversion and Edification of the Souls of Men. This Principle lay at the Foundation of the Reformation , and was one of the greatest means of its Promotion . ( 2. ) That a distinction from the People by Sacred Office , requires indispensibly a distinction from them in Gravity , Usefulness and Holiness of Conversation . If Men should grow weary of their Station in the Clergy on those Principles ( and others the Protestant Religion will not afford them ) it is to be feared that on provoking occasions they may verge unto that Church-State , wherein all things desirable unto them in this World , will be secured on easier terms . And the Danger will be encreased , if they are capable of Envy and Vexation from those Principles of Light and Liberty which have been communicated unto the People by the Protestant Religion , rendring all Expectations of Reverence and Honour but what ariseth from , and is proportionate unto real worth and usefulness , altogether vain . And if hereon they are exposed to impressions from the Wealth , Ease , and Power proposed unto them in the Papal Church , it is to be feared that they may regulate themselves by opportunities . And on these grounds , not a few Ministers in France , being withal at the same time under the dread of Trouble and Persecution , have gone over unto the adverse Party . In the mean time there is some Relief herein , that the Generality of Mankind is so far enlightned , that no Pleas or Pretences of other Reasons for such a Change or Defection will bear the least Admittance , but it will be ascribed unto corrupt Affection and carnal Interest . However , if it be contained , as many judge it is , in the Prophesies of the Revelation , that the Churches of the Nations who were once of the Communion , and in subjection unto the Church of Rome , shall be restored unto her Power and Possession again , at least for a short Season , this sort of Men must be signally instrumental therein . And if there be any Nations where these two things concur , that all Church or Ecclesiastical Power and Jurisdiction , is by the Law of the Land vested in the King , being as unto its whole Exercise derived from him alone , whereby that which he is , the Church is as to Power and Jurisdiction , and nothing else ; and where the Clergy do hold and derive their Spiritual Power , their Power of Order and Office by a Flux and descent of it from the Church of Rome and the Authority thereof , upon the Accession of a Papist unto Supream Rule , it will be very difficult , if not impossible long to secure the publick Profession of the Protestant Religion in such Nations . I say in this Case , although the Protestant Religion may be preserved in Multitudes of Individuals and their voluntary Societies in the Communion of it ; Yet in such a Church State its publick Profession cannot long be continued ; for it will quickly be dissolved by its own intestine Differences ; which every wise Man may easily foresee . But the Force of Law , Inteterest and Inclination is hardly to be withstood . The danger of Defection from the Profession of the Protestant Religion in the People , must be measured from the Preparations for it that are found amongst them , and the Means of their furtherance . Now these are nothing but the vitious Habits of the Minds of Men , enclining their Affections to take Shelter in the Papal Superstition . Such are Ignorance , Lewdness of Conversation , Provocations from the power of Religion in others , Atheism and Interest , from hopes of Advantage proposed unto some of them who have an influence on others . There can be no Defection unto Popery in or among the People , who have ever known any thing of the Protestant Religion , but what proceeds from these Causes , which wholly obliterate all sence of its Power , all delight in its Truth , and dispose Men unto any thing wherein they hope they may find a better compliance with their Inclinations , or at least free them from that whereof they are weary , and wherein they find no Advantage . And the means whereby these things are promoted in them , are want of due Instruction , Examples of Sin and Impunity therein , Publick discountenance of the Power of Religion , Personal and Family Necessities through Pride or Sensuality , with desire of Revenge . Where these things abound in any Nation , amongst any People , there is no Security of their Stability in that Profession of Religion which yet they avow . For all these things will continually operate in their Minds , and occasions will not be wanting in the watchful diligence of the Devil and his Instruments , to excite and provoke their corrupt Lusts unto a Declension from their Profession , which with many of them will be carried on gradually and insensibly , until they find themselves ensnared in the Papal Interest beyond what they can extricate themselves out of . I shall make no Conjectures concerning the ruine or total loss of the publick Profession of the Protestant Religion , from those wayes and means of a general Defection from it . For if there were more danger in them than there is , I know there is yet a way whereby they may be all defeated . And this being in the Hand of God alone , with him it is to be left , and unto his care it is to be committed . Force is the next way whereby the same effect may be produced . And this is that which those of the Roman Interest do place their Principal Confidence in ; and it is that which they Judge they may lawfully make use of , whenever they are able so to do . Be the force esteemed necessary unto this End , of what sort it will ; be it by private Assassinations , Legal Persecutions , National Oppressions , forreign Invasions , all is alike unto them ; they are all of them to be made use of , as their supposed Opportunities do require . That which at present doth most encourage their Hopes and Expectations on this ground of them , is the Power and Inclinations of the French Monarch , and the Influence they have on the Counsels and Actings of other Nations . But that whole Business seems to me on many accounts , to be but res unius aetatis at most ; many Countreys may be ravaged and spoyled , and new Work cut out for another Age , but a stated Interest for the Papal Advantage , will scarcely be fixed thereby . They must be a People of another temper and complexion of mind than our Neighbours are , of a more profound Melancholy and Superstition , than they are Subject unto ; of less vehement desires of their own , and less Subject to alter in their Designs on Provocations and Disappointments , who are fit pertinaciously to pursue the Advancement of the Papal Power and Dominion , wherein themselves at length shall be no sharers . But where there is a concurrence of all these things ; namely , an Inclination in many of all Sorts unto a Defection , Preparations in the Minds of more thereunto , the Persecution of some so far as the Laws will permit , and just fears of a greater outward force , Relief and Safety is to be expected only from Divine Power and Goodness . The Third way whereby the publick Profession of the Protestant Religion may be ruined in any Nation , or Universally , is by a Reconciliation unto the Church of Rome . For although this be really of the same nature and kind with that of the Defection before spoken of , yet seeing it is to be effected by a pretended mutual Condescension , it will be averred to be different from a total Defection . That which I intend is a Coalescency in the same Church-State , Faith , Worship and Rule with the Church of Rome , on such Concessions , and Reliefs from some present Impositions , as shall on both sides be agreed on . And this is the most plausible Engine for attaining the Fatal End designed , that can be made use of ; and possibly the most likely to take effect . The pretences of the Peace of Christendom , and the Union of Christians ( though nothing less be intended , than that Peace and Union which Christ hath appointed ; nor will the Peace pretended be ever attained by it ) are suited to cover and overwhelm Men with Reproaches , who shall but endeavour to discover their falsity and folly . But the present posture of Counsels and Affairs in the World , calls for somewhat a more distinct consideration of these things , which yet shall be but Preparatory unto what shall be further discoursed unto the same purpose , if the process in the Design do further manifest it self . From the very beginning of the Reformation there have been various Attempts for a Composition of the Differences between the Church of Rome , and those who were departed from it . Councels of Princes , Conventions of Divines , Imperial Edicts , Sedate Consultations of Learned Men , have all been made use of unto this End , and all in vain . And it was for a while the Judgment of most Wise men , that the Council of Trent had rendred all Reconciliations , so much as by a pretence of any Condescention on the part of Rome , utterly impossible . For , it hath bound it self and all the World that will own its Authority , under Solemn Curses , not to make any change or Alteration in the present State of the Papal Church , though the Salvation of all Men living should depend thereon . Yet notwithstanding the fixing of this unpassable Gulph between the two Churches or Religions , some persons professing the Protestant Religion , either angry at their Station and disappointments in the World or Ambitious above their Station in the Protestant Church , though of the Highest Dignity attainable in it ; or out of an Itch or Curiosity of venting their Conciliatory Notions , as they suppose them , and so to entitle themselves unto the name of Peace-makers , have in the foregoing and present Age revived the same fruitless Design , but hitherto without success . But it must be confessed , that at present things are more prepared for the plying of this Engine , and making it Effectual unto the Ruine of the Protestant Religion , than they were in former Ages ; whereof I shall give some Instances . Sundry Learned men , who have made themselves of great Name and Reputation thereby , have in their publick Writings granted a Patriarchal Primacy in the West unto the Bishop of Rome , which is meet to be restored . And therewithall they have relinquished the true Grounds of the Reformation : For whereas the real Causes and Reasons of it were the Idolatry , Heresies and Tyranny of the Church of Rome , which every private Christian might understand , and was bound to Separate from in his own Person , were there no other of his Mind in the World but himself alone , and had Right so to do ; they have resolved it into the Power of a National Church in that Patriarchate , with their Supream Civil Ruler , to reform it self from such things as they esteem abuses . Now as this is a matter wherein the Consciences of the People or private Christians , are not concerned ; so it is built on sundry Arbitrary presumptions that have not the least Countenance given unto them from the Word of God. And as this Endeavour tends directly to divert the Minds of Men from the true Causes and Reasons of the Reformation , whereon all the Martyrs died ; so it leads directly upon a Relief against the pretended abuses , to return unto the Pope as an Head of Unity and Peace unto all Churches , at least in these Western parts of the World , which is all that at present is pleaded for , by many of the Papists themselves . For the Dispute , they say , about the Pope , his Power and Infallibility , you need not trouble your selves ; let the Bishop of Rome in his Succession from St. Peter be acknowledged as an Head of Unity and Peace unto all Christians , with a Patriarchal Power , and no more shall be required of you , that is at present ; for the Pope will be Pope whilest he is so ; that is , until he is utterly cast out of the Church . But by such Concessions as these , the way is preparing for a composition as unto the outward Order and Rule of the Church . As unto the Internal part of Religion , in Doctrines of Faith , there is no small advance towards a Reconciliation in the Introduction of Novel Opinions into the Protestant Profession . For although on their first entrance among us , they were publickly protested against by the Commons of England in Parliament , as introductory of Popery ; yet their prevalency since hath been so great , as that their Abettors are ready to avow them as the Doctrine of the present Church . Yet are they all of them opposite unto the fundamental Principles of the Reformation , which were to exalt the Grace of God , and debase the Pride of Men ; from the contempt of which Principles , all the Abominations of the Papacy did arise . And this progress towards a Reconciliation is daily improved by the endeavours of some to lessen all the Doctrinal differences between the Papists and Protestants , and to make them appear as things not worth the striving or contending about . The same work is carried on by the labours and endeavours of many in their publick Writings , to divert the making Application of Scripture Prophesies and Predictions of an Apostatical Antichristian Church-State , unto the Church of Rome . The perswasion hereof ( as it is a most undoubted Truth wherein the Souls of Men are concerned ) is the Principal means of preserving the Body of the People in an aversation unto Popery . If you can once perswade them , that the Pope is not Antichrist , that the Church of Rome is not that Idolatrous Tyrannical State foretold in the Scripture , many would be very indifferent how you treat with them , or what composition you shall make for your selves . But it is hoped , that the broad Light which ariseth from the Evidence , the Pope and his Church for many Ages have given of themselves so to be , by their Idolatries , Persecutions , Murders , Luciferian Pride , trampling on the Power and Persons of Kings and all sorts of Persons , in conjunction with the Characteristical Notes of Times , Places , Rise , Progress , Nature and Actings of that Church State in the Scripture , will not easily be extinguished . There is no small prevalency in the World of an Atheistical Principle lately advanced , namely , of Resolving all respect unto the publick Profession of Religion into the Wills and Laws of Men in Supream Power . It is supposed herein , that Men may be in their own Minds of what Religion they please , and be as Religious as they will. But for the preservation of Society it is meet that the Wills of Law-givers in all Nations should be the Sole Rule of the outward Profession of Religion . Now although this Atheistical Opinion be destructive of Christian Religion , condemning all the Professors of it from its first entrance into the World of the highest Folly imaginable , yet being suited to accommodate all the Lusts and Interests of Men profane and ungodly , it is incredible what a progress in a short time it hath made in the World. And those who have imbibed it are ready for all such compositions in Religion , as may be supposed any way Commodious unto their Inclinations and Interests . I shall only mention that which of all other things is of the worst abode , namely , the Loss of the Power of Religion in all sorts of Persons . The Protestant Religion will not any where long maintain its Station any otherwise , than by an Experience of its Power and Efficacy on the Souls of Men. Where this is lost through the power of prevalent vitious Habits of the minds of Men , the whole of that Religion will be parted withall at an easie Rate . For there is another continually proposed unto them , with those entertainments for Mens Fancies and carnal Affections , with those accommodations for their Lusts Living and Dying , with outward Secular advantages , that this Religion is not capable of , nor accompanied withall . This is that which guided with an Eye to outward Advancement , hath in the last Age lost great numbers of the Nobility of France and Poland , and other places , from the Profession of the Gospel , whose Ancestors were renowned Champions for the Truth of it . For to what end should Men entertain a Religion which they find no inward Spiritual Advantage by , and are for the Profession of it exposed unto all sorts of outward disadvantages ? And this sort of Men , will at any time greedily embrace such a Reconciliation with the Church of Rome , as by the Terms of it may a little shelter their Reputation , and make a pretence of Satisfying some Traditiona Convictions of the Truth which they had professed . Moreover , unless it be diligently watched against , weariness is apt to grow on many of the Clergy , of that Spiritual Rule and Conduct of the People , which according to the Principles of the Protestant Religion , is committed unto them . For there hath by Vertue thereof , so much Light and Knowledge been diffused among the People , and such a valuation of their Spiritual Liberty thereon , which formerly they knew nothing of , that there is an excellent Vertue and Piety , with continual care and watchfulness required unto the Rule of them ; and yet when the best of Men have done their utmost herein also , they will meet with that which shall exercise their Wisdom and Patience all their Dayes . Neither hath Christ granted any Rule or Office in his Church on any other Terms ; nor will the state of his Subjects , who are all Voluntiers , permit it to be otherwise . No wonder then if some do Like those Engines of an easie Rule , namely , Ignorance and blind Devotion in the People , and so are Ready to return unto them again . For it is a monstrous wearisome thing for Men of Heroick Governing Spirits , to be obliged to give conviction from the Scripture unto such Persons as they judge impertinent , of what they do ; much more to order their Conversation with strictness , that no offence be taken at them . This posture of things Men seem to be weary of , and therefore do daily Relinquish them , so far as they can pretend any consistency between what they do , and the Religion which they profess . But the utter shaking off of those Bonds and Manacles , unworthy of Men of generous Spirits , must needs seem more eligible unto them . And if hereon such Terms of Reconciliation be offered , as shall not only secure unto them their present Possessions and Dignities , but give them also a prospect of farther advancement , it is to be feared that many of this sort will judge it better to embrace things so desirable , than to die in a Prison , or at a Stake . Besides all these , there is at present a coincidence of Two things , that exceedingly encline the Minds of many unto an Ecclesiastical Coalescency with the Church of Rome . And these are , First , An Ignorance or Forgetfulness of what the Papacy was , and will again be ; and then a sence of some provocations given or supposed to be given them by the Protestant Religion , or those that profess it . Alas ! what harm hath the Papacy ever done to them ? It may be they can give instances wherein they have had Advantage by it , or by them that belong unto it . But every thing which they suppose evil , and find inconvenient unto their present inclinations , they suspect to proceed from the Principles of the Protestant Religion , from whence they have already received many provocations . These are some of the Reasons which make it evident , that there may be no small danger unto the publick Profession of the Protestant Religion ( the thing enquired after ) from the present Design of not a few , to make a Reconciliation of the two Religions , and to bring all Men into a Coalescency in Faith , Worship and Rule with the Church of Rome . Now as there is little Hope to prevail with them who are under the Power of these things and considerations , or are influenced by them , by Arguments Religious and Rational ; seeing they have all of them their Foundation in such corrupt Affections , Inclinations and Interests , as are more deaf than an Adder unto such Charms ; yet for the sake of others not as yet engaged by such Prejudices , I shall manifest in a few Instances the folly and Wickedness of Attempting , or complying with any Reconciliation with the Church of Rome . For , in the first place , be it on what Terms it will , it is a Renunciation of the Fundamental Principle of the Reformation ; namely , that the Church of Rome is that Idolatrous Antichristian State which is foretold in the Scriptures . For if it be so , the Persons that belong unto it may be converted , but the State it self is to be destroyed . And to joyn our selves unto , or coalesce in that Church State on any Terms whatever , that the Lord Christ hath designed to destruction , is both foolish in it self , and will be ruinous in the issue unto our Souls . For it will hence also follow , that we interest our selves in the Guilt of all that innocent Blood which hath been shed by the Power of that Church-State for a dissent from it . For this Guilt which is next unto that of the Church of the Jews , in murdering the Head of the Church , and every way Equal unto that of the Pagan World in the Blood shed in their Persecutions , for which it was Temporally and Eternally destroyed , lies charged on this Church-state , and will reach unto all that shall choose an Ecclesiastical Conjunction therein . And let such Persons flatter themselves whilst they please , and slight these things , as those wherein they are not concerned , they will find them true to their cost , here or hereafter . Neither will Men of any Light or Ingenuity easily renounce the whole work of Gods Grace and Power in the Reformation , and cast the Guilt of all the Divisions that have been in the World , on the part of the Protestants . For seeing they have all been on the account of the Church-state of Rome , in opposition whereunto the Martyrs laid down their Lives , a Coalescency on any Terms in and with that Church-state , doth include a condemnation of all that hath been done or suffered in opposition thereunto . The preaching of the Gospel hath been but a Fancy ; the suffering of the Martyrs was the highest Folly ; the Glory given to God on these accounts , little less than Blasphemy , is the Language of such a Coalescency . The Vanity also of the Terms of Reconciliation which are or may be proposed , is obvious unto all that are not wilfully blind . For the Church of Rome preserving its essentially constitutive Principles , and its Being as such , can make no such Condescensions , as shall not keep safe and secure the whole Malignity of their Faith and Worship . When any thing that hath the shew , or Appearance of a Concession , as suppose Priests Marriage , the Cup unto the Lasty , and the Service of the Church in a known Tongue is proposed , it is Natural for all Men to commend and approve of what is so done , because it is a kind of Relinquishment of things grievous and Tyrannical . At the first Proposal few will judge these things to be sufficient , but will encourage themselves in an expectation of further Condescensions ; and will be ready to assure others that they will ensue ; But yet when they find themselves defeated herein , they will take up the Management of the Cause and contend , that this is enough at present for sober Men , seeing no more can be attained . But in Reality this Reconciliation will prove a total Defection from the Protestant Religion . For the Church of Rome neither will , nor can part with any thing that shall change its Antichristian-State and Idolatrous Worship . The whole of their pretension is but a Decoy to get us into their Power , where we shall be made to understand both where we are , and where we have been also . And those which shall be most inclinable unto such a Reconciliation as is designed , unless they also become flagitious Persecutors of those whom they have left , as is the manner of most Apostates , will find their former faults called over to the purpose , and such base acknowledgements required of them , as ingenuous Persons would rather choose to die than be brought unto . But although universal Experience confirms this to be the certain and undoubted issue of a return unto their Power , from which Men are judged to have broken away unjustly , what ever Salvo's seem to be provided against it ; yet those concerned cannot think it shall be so with them , but rather that they shall be dearly embraced , and highly promoted , if not for their Return , yet for their being early and sedulous therein . But if they find this Entertainment with them , who have every thing which they think good , as Conscience and Religion , and every thing that is really evil , as Pride , Ambition and Revenge , to oblige them unto the contrary , I shall not be alone in being deceived . But this one consideration is sufficient to cast out all thoughts of any Reconcillation with the Church of Rome . For although they should never so earnestly desire it , as that which would bring Dominion , Profit , Advantage and Reputation unto them , yet is it not in their Power , continuing what they are , to make any such Concessions as shall alter their State , or once touch the Reasons of the Protestants departure from them . And seeing what they suppose they may grant , will not be upon a Conviction of Truth , that such ought to be , as if before they had been in a Mistake , but only to comply with a present Exigence for their Advantage , it will be recalled whenever they judge it meet to take it away again . Upon the whole matter , the Reconciliation designed on the most plausible Terms that have ever yet been proposed , is nothing but an hood-winkt Defection to Rome , accumulated with a charge on the Consciences of them who shall comply therewith , of the Guilt of all the Miseries and blood of them by whom it will be refused . But there are on the other side certain considerations that may be laid in the Ballance against these Dangers or the fears of them as unto the Event ; And I shall briefly mention them also . For , 1. The Honour of Christ himself seems to be engaged for the preservation of the Light and Truth of the Gospel where it hath been professed . And so it is undoubtedly , unless the Sins and Ingratitude of the Generality of them by whom it is professed , do require that they be dealt withall in his severity . In that case the Glory and Honour of Christ are more engaged to remove and take away the Blessing of it from any Place or People , than to put forth his Power for its preservation and continuance . Now although it must be acknowledged , that the Sins of these and other Protestant Nations , have been of an high provoking Nature unto the Eyes of his Glory ; yet it may be hoped that they have not exceeded the bounds of his Patience and Forbearance . And whether it be so or no , there will be a speedy Discovery . For if on the many intimations which he hath given them of his Displeasure , his many calls to Repentance mixed with Threatnings , they will now at last return unto him from the evil of their ways , and make their Repentance evident by the Fruits of it , he will undoubtedly continue his presence among them and his care over them . But if notwithstanding all that they hear , and feel , and fear at present , notwithstanding all Divine warnings and Indications of his Displeasure , they will go on frowardly in their own wayes , unto the high Dishonour of himself and his Gospel , causing his Name and wayes to be Blasphemed among the Idolatrous Nations , the Event must be left in the depths of Infinite Wisdom with Soveraign Grace and Mercy . 2. Notwithstanding all that Profaneness and Wickedness of Life wherein Multitudes are immersed who outwardly profess the Protestant Religion , there is a Remnant in the Nations where it is professed , who manifest the Power of it in their Lives , and glorifie Christ by their Profession and Obedience unto all his Commands , walking worthy of the Gospel in all Holy Conversation . Nor are this sort confined to any one Party or Peculiar way among them , but are found in the whole Body or Community of the Protestant Profession . What Influence these have on many accounts into the preservation of the Light of the Gospel in the Places , Times and Nations wherein their Lot and Portion is cast by Divine Providence , is not here to be declared ; the Scripture will give a sufficient account of it . 3. There is evidently at present a Spirit of Courage and Christian Magnanimity come upon many , whose other Circumstances render them considerable in the World , to do and suffer whatever they shall Lawfully be called unto , for the defence of this Protestant Religion . This also is from God ; and if his purpose were utterly to ruine that Interest , it is more suited unto former Dispensations of his Providence in like cases , to send Weakness , Faintness , Cowardice and Despondency into the Hearts of those concerned , than to give them a Spirit of Courage and Resolution for their Duty . And hereunto also belongs that Revival of Zeal for their Religion and the Concernments of it , which hath of late been stirred up even in the Body of the People , taking occasion from the Opposition made unto it , and the dangers whereunto it hath been reduced . If these things are from God , as they seem to be , they will not be so easily run down , as some Imagine . For whatever means he will make use of , be they in themselves never so weak and contemptible , they shall be effectual unto the End whereunto they are designed . And therefore there is no small Indication in them , that it is in the Councel of the Divine Will as yet to preserve the Profession of the Protestant Religion , though it may be sorely shaken . 4. The strange Discoveries that have been made of the Plots and Designs of the Enemies of this Religion with the Disappointment of many of them , are also a Pledge of the care of God over it . Wise and considering Men knew well enough that they were at work with all Diligence , Craft and Industry , for the accomplishment of what they had long designed , and which for some Ages they had been engaged in various contrivances to bring about . But what they saw of the Effects of their Counsels , they could not remove ; and all the specialties of their Design were hid from them . The generality of Men in the mean time , were in the highest Security , some enjoying themselves in the Advantages which they hold by the Profession of Religion , and others altogether regardless of these Things . But in this State of things , the Providence of God making use of the unparallel'd Confidence and precipitation of the Enemies themselves , by strange and unexpected means , layes open their works of Darkness , awakens the Nation unto the Consideration of its Danger , variously disappoints their Hellish Plots , and puts the Minds of Multitudes , it may be Millions , into a posture of taking care about those concernments of their Religion , which they had assuredly been surprized into the Loss of , had they continued in the Security from which their Enemies awakened them . And it may be well supposed , that nothing but Sin and the highest Ingratitude can divert or stop the progress of those streams of Providence , whose Springs were undeserved Mercy and Bounty . For although the Wisdom , Justice , and Honour of the Nation in the Actings of the King as Supream , of both Houses of Parliament , in the Judges and their Legal Administrations , with the Piety of the Church in the Observation of a Day of Fasting and Prayer with respect hereunto , be every Day exposed to Scorn and Contempt in the Papers and Pamphlets of unknown Persons , by decrying the Plot , and vilifying the Discoveries of it ( a practice never allowed , never tolerated in any other well ordered Government , as that which would tend to its Dissolution ) yet all sober Men have sufficient Evidence of the Hand of God in these things , to make them an Argument of his Watchful care over the Protestant Religion . And unto all these things we may add , the fatal Miscarriages and miserable ends of such Apostates from the true Religion , as have not been contented to ruine their own Souls alone , but have been active and Instrumental in their Capacities , to draw or drive others into the same Perdition . Examples in this kind might be multiplied , sufficient to stop this sort of Persons in their career , if an open discovery of the Pit whereinto they will precipitate themselves , may have any influence upon them . Some few things may yet be added concerning the outward means of the preservation of the Protestant Religion as unto its publick Profession , ( for the thing it self will be preserved in despite of the World ) which those concerned therein , may do well to apply themselves unto . And I shall only name them at present . And the first is , fervent Prayers to Almighty God , that the Princes and Potentates of the Earth may have Light to discern that their Principal Interest in this World lyes in its preservation . And although some Reasons that may induce them hereunto , may not seem of force unto them , yet there is one that is uncontrollable . For where the Protestant Religion is received , publickly professed , and established by Law , it cannot be changed without the extream Havock and Ruine of the greatest and best part of their Subjects , in all their Temporal concerns . And this there is no doubt but that they are obliged so far as in them lies to prevent , as they will give an account unto God of the Trust reposed in them . For as things are stated in the World , as the Designs and Interests of the Parties at variance are formed , it is a madness to suppose that any Alteration can be made herein , without these direful Effects ; and if they should be covered for a Season , they will break forth afterwards with more rage and fury . But I refer this unto the Wisdom of them that are concerned . It is also necessary hereunto , that all those who sincerely own this Religion , and make it the Rule of their Living unto God , in Hopes of the Eternal Enjoyment of him in another World , do depose the consideration of the lesser Differences amongst themselves , and unite in one common Design and Interest to oppose the Entrances and Growth of Popery among us . And it is an hard thing to perswade Rational Men , that they are in Earnest for its Opposition and Exclusion , who are not willing so to do . But that whereon amongst our selves the Event of this Contest doth depend , is the Repentance and Reformation of all them that profess this Religion , upon the Divine calls and warnings which they have received . For a close of this Discourse , if we may suppose what we may justly fear , namely , that the Holy God , to punish the horrible Sins and Ingratitude of the Nations professing the Protestant Religion , should suffer the Profession of it by any of these means or any other that he shall think meet to use in his Holy permission , to be extinguished for a Season , and remove the Light of the Gospel from these Nations , we may yet conclude Two things . 1. That it shall issue at last in the Advantage of the Church . Antichrist shall not be a final Gainer in this contest . His success herein will be the Forerunner of his utter Destruction . The healing of his deadly wound , will preserve his Life but for a little while . Religion shall be again restored in a more refined Profession . There shall ensue hereon no new Revelations , no new Doctrines , no new Scriptures , no new Ordinances of Worship ; the Substance of the Protestant Doctrine , Religion and Worship shall be preserved , restored , beautified in themselves , and in their Power , in them by whom they shall be professed : The Demonstration whereof , shall be given elsewhere . 2. In the mean time , to suffer for it even unto Death , is the most glorious Cause wherein we can be engaged , and wherein we shall be undoubtedly victorious . It is no less Glorious in the Sight of God , no less Acceptable with him , to suffer in giving Testimony against the Abominations of the Apostate Antichristian Church-State , than to suffer for the Gospel it self in Opposition to Idolatrous Paganism . FINIS . 
A59859	----	A Protestant of the Church of England, no Donatist, or, Some short notes on Lucilla and Elizabeth Sherlock, William, 1641?-1707. 1686 Approx. 16 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-05 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A59859 Wing S3331 ESTC R15108 12005909 ocm 12005909 52314 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A59859) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 52314) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 878:13) A Protestant of the Church of England, no Donatist, or, Some short notes on Lucilla and Elizabeth Sherlock, William, 1641?-1707. [2], 6 p. Printed for T. Basset ..., London : 1686. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Attributed to William Sherlock. cf. BM. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism. Donatists. 2003-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-02 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2004-02 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A PROTESTANT . OF THE Church of England , NO DONATIST . OR , SOME SHORT NOTES ON Lucilla and Elizabeth . Licensed , Decemb. 8. 1686. LONDON , Printed for T. Basset , at the George , near St. Dunstan's Church , in Fleetstreet . 1686. (a) Lucilla and Elizabeth . (b) OR , DONATIST and PROTESTANT (c) SCHISM PARALLEL'D . Donatism . Protestancy . 1. Ordain'd Anti-Bishops . 1. Ordain'd Anti-Bishops . An Anti-Bishop is one set up against another Lawfull Bishop , in the same Diocese . 1. SVch the Papists have in Ireland , as the Donatists had . 1. SUch the Church of England has not , that we know of ; and if there be any Such , they must be Popish Anti-Bishops . 2. Erected Anti-Altars . 2. Erected Anti-Tables . 2. There can be no Anti-Altars , nor Anti-Tables , where there are no Anti-Bishops . 3. Impeach'd all other Churches of Apostacy . 3. Impeach'd the whole Church of Superstition , Idolatry , and Antichristianism . 3. Rome , like the Donatist , does this ; for She allows of no True Churches , but what are in Communion with , and Subjection to the Pope . 3. No , only the Church of Rome , and not So as to Unchurch her neither , as Donatists and Papists do . 4. Communicated with no other Church in Religious Offices . 4. Communicates , in Sacred Duties , with no Christian Society . 4. Thus Papists communicate with none but in their own Communion ; and that is to Communicate with no other Church . 4. We reject no Christians , who will Communicate with us ; and are ready to Communicate with all Churches , who do not impose Sinfull Terms of Communion , nor require a Corrupt Worship . 5. Appeal'd from the Churches Sentence in a Spiritual Cause to a Lay-Prince . 5. Appeal'd from the Churches Decrees to the Princes Supremacy , advancing it in all Spiritual Cases , above any Authority Ecclesiastical , whatsoever . 5. Popes have deposed Princes , and absolved Subjects from their Oaths of Fidelity , which is a greater Crime . 5. The Supremacy we allow to Princes is not the Exercise of any Spiritual Power , but such a Power as the Catholick Church has always allowed to Christian Princes , viz. to have the Supreme Government of the Church in their Dominions , as incorporated into the State ; which must be allowed to Sovereign Power , or it is not Sovereign . 6. Yet continued the Catholick Creed , Sacraments , Liturgies , Regiment and Solemnities , as they were before the Schism . 6. Continues Baptism and the Creed ( in most Articles ) but errs concerning the Eucharist and other our Lord's Sacraments , abrogating the Liturgies , Rites , Canons , Fasts and Festivals ; as also the Spiritual Iurisdiction of the Church , and Canonical Obedience to the Western Patriarch . 6. This the Church of Rome does not , but has done that which is worse , viz. Corrupted the Catholick Faith ; not by denying any Article of the Creed , but by adding New Doctrines to it ; by increasing the Number , and altering the Nature of Sacraments ; by corrupting Liturgies , and the Fasts and Festivals of the Church ; and so are much worse , upon this account , than the Donatists , who did not Corrupt the Christian Faith. 6. We retain the whole Faith , and Institutions of Christ , intire ; which , I hope , is no Fault , either in Donatists , or in the Church of England . We retain the ancient Use of Fasts and Festivals ; and vindicate our Just Liberties from the Usurpations of the Bishop of Rome ; who is not contented to be the Western Patriarch , but will be an Universal Bishop , the Sovereign Head of the Church , and Infallible Judge of Controversies . By which extravagant Claims , he justly Forfeits even that Patriarchal Right , which the Canons of the Church formerly allowed him , in honour to the Imperial City , of which he was Bishop : For when a Grant upon meer Courtesy is improved into Tyranny and Usurpation , there is no Obligation to continue those Respects , which are now Challenged not upon Courtesy , but as an Original and Inviolable Right ; and improved , from honourable Respects , into Empire and unlimited Jurisdiction . However , we need not trouble our selves with this Dispute . The Brittish Churches , for Six hundred Years after Christ , never had any Dependance on Rome ; and what was after this was only Usurpation , and an usurped Authority may be renounced without Schism . A. St. Augustin's Censure against the Donatists involving Protestants . A. And why not involving Papists as well as Protestants ? For we have less to do with Donatism than they have . What St. Austin says against the Donatists is upon the account of their Schism , and may indeed be applied to other Schismaticks : But before they can be applied to us , they must prove us to be Schismaticks ; which is not so easy to do , as to take it for granted ; which our Author , I see , is most inclined to . But , if the Schismatick should fall to their own share , they must take the Censure of St. Austin to themselves . B. YOV [ Donatists ] are with us [ Catholics ] in Baptism , in the Creed , and in the rest of our Lord's Sacraments ; but in the Spirit of Vnity , in the Bond of Peace , lastly , in the Catholick Church it self , you are not with us . B. TO agree in Faith and Worship , and yet to divide Communion , is certainly a notorious Schism . And thus St. Austin proves the Donatists to be Schismaticks ; That they had the same Baptism , the same Creed , the same Sacraments , but would not Communicate with them ; and thereby Divided themselves from the Catholick Church ; did not Preserve the Spirit of Vnity in the Bond of Peace , but Refused to own themselves of the same Church . And this must be Schism ; for nothing can justify a Separation , but a Corruption of Faith or Worship . But the Case is vastly different between us and the Church of Rome . For we have not the same Creed , the same Sacraments , and the same Worship : The Council of Trent has added a great many new Articles to our Creed ; has made a great many new Sacraments , and corrupted the old ones , and has introduced a new and strang Worship , the Worship of Saints and Angels , and Service in an Unknown Tongue , into the Christian Church . And this is the Reason not of our Separating from , but of their Flinging us out of their Communion . And this Case St. Austin says nothing of ; but we are ready to prove , That it is no Schism . C. The Sacraments of Christ , which in the Sacrilege of Schism you [ Donatists ] have to Iudgment , will be profitable and wholsom to you , when you shall have the Head , Christ , in Catholic Peace , where Charity will cover a multitude of Sins . C. If they apply this to us , then they must at least grant , That we have very good Sacraments in our Church , such as are profitable and wholsom ; and convey to us all the Vertue and Benefit of Sacraments , till they can prove us guilty of Schism : And we desire to injoy the Benefit of our Sacraments no longer . D. Whosoever believes Christ Jesus to be come in the Flesh , &c. but yet so dissent from his Body , which is his Church , as that their Communion is not with the whole , wherever diffused , but is found Separated in some part , 't is manifest they are not in the Catholic Church . D. This was a good Argument in St. Austin's time ; when the whole Catholick Church was in one Communion , without any Corruptions in Faith and Worship to justifie a Separation . For , in this Case , whoever separated from any Society of Christians , separated from the whole Christian Church ; and nothing else was necessary to prove them Schismaticks , but only their Separation ; which was as visible a Schism , as tearing an Arm or Leg from the Body . For when the whole Church was one Communion , without any Corruptions of Faith or Worship , there could be no Dispute which was the True Catholick Church ; and to Separate from the Catholick Church is certainly Schism . This was the Case of the Donatists , against whom St. Austin wrote that Book de Vnitate . They had nothing to object against the Faith or Worship of the Catholick Church ; but only pretended , that they Communicated with Traditors , or those who were Ordained by them , that is , With those who , in the Times of Persecution , delivered up their Bibles to the Persecutors ; which yet was not so great a Fault as taking away the Bible from the People , ( which if they had not had in those Days , they could not have delivered it ) and persecuting those who use it . But when the Church is divided in Faith and Worship , into a great many different and opposite Communions , it is a ridiculous thing for any Part of the Church to call it self the Whole ; and then to charge others , as St. Austin does the Donatists , with Separating from the Whole ; especially , when such a Separation is occasioned by such Corruptions as are dangerous to Mens Souls . Which is vastly different from the state of the Church in St. Austin's time ; and therefore what he says cannot be immediately applied to us . They must first prove , that the Roman Church is the Catholick Church , and a Pure and Uncorrupt Church ; and then we will grant , that not to Communicate with them is Schism . E. This Church is the Body of Christ , as the Apostle saith , Col. 1. 24. For his Body , which is his Church . Whence surely 't is manifest , That he who is no Member of Christ , cannot have Christian Salvation . But the Members of Christ are joyn'd to each other by the Charity of Vnity , and by the same [ Charity ] do they cohere to their Head , Christ Jesus . E. To separate from the Body of Christ is certainly Schism ; but St. Austin in the same place tells us , that there is a Separation from the Head , as well as from the Body ; that is , from Christ who is the Head , as well as from his Body , which is his Church . The first is a Schism occasioned by Heresy ; the second is a causless Schism without any corruption in Faith and Worship . So that He never intended that , for fear of Schism , we should Communicate with a very Corrupt Church ; but only warns us not to Separate from the Church of Christ , when such a Church does not Separate from Christ. But as far as any Church , or Society of Christians , Separates from Christ , the Head , so far we may and ought to Separate from them . F. Whosoever therefore is Separated from this Catholick Church , how laudably soever he thinks himself to live , for this only Crime , that he is disjoyn'd from the Vnity of Christ , he shall not have life , but the wrath of God abideth on him . F. As for the evil and danger of Schism , we perfectly agree with this Father ; and will say as Ill things of it , as the Church of Rome her self can desire : But we are not afraid of these Ill Consequences of Schism , while we are no Schismaticks . G. NOW St. Augustin places the Donatists Schism in their not joyning with Catholicks in Religious Offices , In forsaking all Christian Assemblies , In not partaking with them of the Eucharist , In Prayers , &c. Whence he concludes them not to belong to the Catholic Church , Not to be Members of Christ ' s Mystical Body , Not to have Charity , Not Sacraments to Benefit , Not Piety with Hope , nor Salvation . G. THIS is all very true , and this was the Character of the Donatist Schism . They were charged with no Heresy , for they were Guilty of none ; but only with Separating from the Communion of the Catholick Church , in Prayers , and Sacraments , which is a Separation ; and if it be Causless , as it was in the Donatists , has the Guilt of Schism : But is a very just Separation , and no Schism , if it have a just Cause . H. Have Prelatical Protestants of Great Britain and Ireland any visible Communion , in the Eucharist or other Divine Service , with any Christian Church on Earth ? If they have not , as is undeniable , then according to St. Augustin , they are not in the Catholic Church , are not Members of Christ , are without Charity , beneficial Sacraments , hopeful Holiness , and eternal Salvation . H. Do the Prelatical Protestants of Great Britain and Ireland refuse Communion with , or deny Communion to , any Church on Earth , without a Cause ? If they do not , they are Innocent ; if they say we do , let them prove it . We have nothing in our Worship that can hinder any Christian ( not Roman-Catholicks themselves ) from Communicating with us ; and then , if they will not do it , it is their own Faults . We refuse Communion with no Church , with whom we can Communicate without Sin ; and it is no Fault to refuse Communion , when it cannot be had without Sin. And therefore we are still in the Catholick Church , ( and , I believe , the best Reformed part of the Catholick Church ; ) we are Members of Christ , have true Christian Charity ( so much even for the Church of Rome , that it is made by themselves an Argument against us ) and therefore doubt not to receive all the benefit of Sacraments ; and , if we live holily , to receive the Fruits of it in eternal Salvation . I. And this Censure by so much the more justly belongs to them , as their Schism is more consumacious , their Calumnies against the Catholick Church more horrid , and their Defection by Heresie , as well as Schism , wider than the Donatists . I. Contumacy can never be in a good Cause , and that we are sure ours is . Though had he known any thing of the Story of the Donatists , he would have known , That no Man can be more constant , and vertuously steddy , in a good Cause , than they were contumaciously Obstinate in a bad one . We do not calumniate the Catholick Church , God forbid ! nay , not the Roman Church ; for though we say a great many Ill things of them , they are True , and that is no Calumny . And are we the greater Schismaticks , because we justifie our Separation , by laying the Fault on the Corruptions and Innovations of the Church of Rome ? If the Donatists could have done so , St. Austin would not have thought them so much the worse Schismaticks , but no Schismaticks at all . And as for Heresy , when This Author can prove us guilty of that , we will allow our selves to be worse Schismaticks than the Donatists were . The End. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A59859-e110 (a) LVcilla , a Private , though Rich and Powerfull Woman , and therefore a fit Patroness for a Faction , but no Legal Reformer . (b) Elizabeth , a Sovereign Princess , who had Authority , in Her own Kingdoms , to Reform the Church ; which makes some difference between them . (c) Papist had been here a more proper Parallel , than a Protestant , but that he is not so Orthodox as a Donatist , though as great a Schismatick . Notes for div A59859-e840 Epist. 48. Epist. 1 53. De Vnitate Ecclesiae , c. 4. Cap. 2. Epist. 1 53. 
A61101	----	A Protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion at this present in difference in the church, and for his own and others better confirmation or rectification in the points treated on : humbly submitted to the censure of the Church of England. Spelman, Henry, Sir, 1564?-1641. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A61101 of text R12772 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing S4940). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 73 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A61101 Wing S4940 ESTC R12772 13579453 ocm 13579453 100497 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A61101) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 100497) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 851:4) A Protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion at this present in difference in the church, and for his own and others better confirmation or rectification in the points treated on : humbly submitted to the censure of the Church of England. Spelman, Henry, Sir, 1564?-1641. Spelman, John, Sir, 1594-1643. [4], 30 p. s.n.], [London : 1642. Written by Henry Spelman, but sometmes ascribed to John Spelman. Cf. DNB, BM. Dedication signed: J.S. Place of publication from Wing. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. eng Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. A61101 R12772 (Wing S4940). civilwar no A Protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion, at this present; in difference in the church. And for his own and othe Spelman, Henry, Sir 1642 13763 19 0 0 0 0 0 14 C The rate of 14 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-06 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-07 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2006-02 Aptara Rekeyed and resubmitted 2006-03 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2006-03 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Protestants Account OF HIS Orthodox Holding In Matters of Religion , at this present ; In difference in the CHURCH . And For his own and others better confirmation or rectification in the points treated on , Humbly submitted to the censure of the Church of England . Printed Anno Dom. 1642. Good Reader , THE dissentions in our Church about matters of Religion , being so great , as that there is scarce any thing in practice so well established , but is by some or other called in question , and the distempers of the State being such , as not any man scarcely knows where to make addresse for resolution : I do here ( as I hold it my duty ) make a publique presentment and submission of the judgement , that upon calling my understanding to an account , I have been able to make in these matters , to the pious censure of our Mother the Church of England , to the end that from her sincere admonishment , both thou and I may receive as the case shall require , either approbation or rectification in our judgements ; which I heartily wishing , rest , Thine in all faithfull affections , J. S. A Protestants Account of his Orthodox holding , in matters of RELIGION . WHen in all Controversies about matter of Religion , the dictate of the Word of God is principally to be attended ; and the certainty of that dictate depends upon the assurance of the true sense and interpretation of the Scripture ; It is necessary that in the first place we have consideration of the assurance one may have of the true and genuine sense thereof . For though without controversie the Scripture be a Rule of the highest , most absolute , and most sacred Authority that may be , and such as wheresoever it extends to give Rule , bindes and regulates all humane Laws and Constitutions , from what authority soever derived , and though in many things ( as namely , in the Fundamentalls of Religion , in matters of necessary faith , and in the expresse Commands of God ) the truths thereof are so manifest , and of so assured receipt , as that no authority , no not of an Angel from Heaven is to be received to the contrary , but every one must of his own illumination embrace and hold them ; yet are there other truths which may so easily admit dispute , as that without the awe of some authorized Moderator , men of perverse affections would inevitably subvert the peace of the Church with their infinite dissentions about them . It is true , that to the great calamities of the Church , there is much dissention made about the Morator or Interpreter of the Scripture ; but that is not so much through error of Judgement , as obstinacy of parties , among whom the two most adverse and dangerous parties are neither of them so blamelesse , but that they are culpable of detracting from the authority of the Scripture , by authorizing unwarrantable interpretation of it . It is true , that in the first place the Church of Rome is the great subverter of the Scripture , by assuming to her self the person of the whole Church Catholique , and by vertue thereof , to have infallibility of judgement in interpretation of Scripture ; for whilst she as Judge arrogates to her self infallibility , she makes that there is no more regard to be had what the Text is , than there is heed to be taken what was the Warrant that the holy Ghost had for those things which he hath at any time delivered ; for he that is infallible , pronounces of his own authority , and can no more depend or be restrayned to any originall out of himself , than infinitenesse can be restrayned to a finite thing , or God himself unto a creature : wherefore there can be no extrneall Judge of Scripture , of infallible authority , for that of necessity annulls the Scripture , and makes it no other than a dead Letter . But in the second place they also destroy the Authority of Scripture , who when in word and outward profession they magnifie it above all things , do then by subjecting it indifferently to the judgement of every one that takes upon him to interpret it , trample under foot the honour that they gave unto it ; for as infallibility of the Interpreter takes away the Scripture from the hearer , so incertainty in the Interpreter takes away the hearer from the Scripture : for how can one hear , when he may either doubt the judgement or fidelity of the Interpreter ? or when ( as it often happens ) the Interpreters that are authorized one as much as another , do make a diverse , perhaps an adverse delivery of the Scripture ? As in the Romish errour the Scripture is made a dead letter , so in this it is made a Trumpet of incertain sound , which none can with safety hear and receive , unlesse you will suppose some hearer also infallible . To say truth , as in the question whether one God or many , it was truely said , Dicite plure● , dicite null●s ; so in the Interpreters of Gods Word ( whereof none can be authentique , but with whom the Spirit of God is warrantably to be presumed ) if in equall degree and authority we make many , we make as good as none at all . We must therefore finde an especiall Interpreter , and that of such potiority of judgement before all others , as that we may safely confide therein , and yet so confide , as that we may not detract ought from the Authority of the Scripture , by ascribing infallibility to the Interpreter . We are taught negatively , That no Prophesie of the Scripture is of private Interpretation ; We are also told , That the Church is the ground and pillar of the truth ; And we are warned not to adhere to the doctrines of particular men , be they never so eminent and famous in the Congregation , but to weigh their Doctrines delivered as the Word of God , and to see if they have alwayes been so understood and received by the Church ; for if we finde not authority ( of our own Church at least ) for them , we are then but cautiously to receive them ; but if we finde the judgement of the Church Catholique against them , we are altogether then to reject them : for when the promises of the holy Ghosts assistance were made , not to single disciples , nor to some in particular , but indefinitely to the universality of them : I am with you unto the end . He that heareth you , heareth me . He ( the Spirit of Truth ) will guide you into all Truth ; that is , not some , nor every one of you , but generally the Body of you : We cannot receive Doctrines with any confident assurance , but from the concurrent Judgement of all the Pastors of the whole Church Universall , to whom the promise of assistance is properly , and in the first place made ; or in defect thereof , from the concurrent Judgement of the Pastors of our particular Church , which , as to her own Members , is to be received as the Judgement of the whole , till the Judgement of the whole appeareth to the contrary . For as the spirits of the particular Prophets in every Church ought to be heard and received of all the Members thereof , untill it appear that their particular spirits and Doctrines recede from the concurrent Judgement of all the Prophets of that Church ( to which they ought to submit their judgements ) so ought the concurrent Judgement of all the Prophets of every particular Church , to be received of that Church , untill it appear that it is contrary to the Judgement of the Church Universall : But then as the Universall Church must be heard before the particular , so must the Universality of the particular , before any particulars of that particular Church ; for God , saith Saint Paul , is not the author of confusion : And therefore he not onely obiects against the refractory particulars of Corinth , We ( that is , the Church of Corinth ) have no such Custome ; But lest they should alleadge errour also in that particular Church , he justifies their practise , by the practice of the Universall ; Neither ( saith he ) have the Churches of God . By which it appears , private men are tyed to submit to the judgement of their particular Church , and that unto the judgement of the Universall . But if any ask what is the Catholique Church , when and how is her judgement to be had . The Catholique Church ( properly so called ) is the whole number of Christians in all places Universally professing Christ ; And this , since the Apostles times , never was , nor can be assembled into one , to give sentence upon any thing : But as in the Politique Body of Civill States , the reall assembling of all the Members personally being unnecessary , inconvenient , and almost impossible ; some persons representative of the whole , being by intimation of the superiours from all parts , delegate to give the common suffrage of the whole , do by the Laws of God and man , give the binding sentence of the whole Body Universall , So in the mysticall Body of the Church , the Ecclesiasticks , which are the onely authorized Members , for discerning and judging matters that depend upon the Word of God , because that to them , and to them alone , were the promises of the holy Ghosts assistance made , they ( I say ) either all assembling themselves together , or at least in their severall Diocesses , chosing and delegating from among themselves trusty men , to do the office of the Clergy in that point , do truely and properly give the entire Vote of the whole Catholique Church : And in this way we have many sentences and Decrees thereof remaining to us ; which being from age to age successively received , do stand in force and speak , unto this very present : against which , whosoever shall in practice or doctrine attempt any thing to the prejudice of what is so established , shall apparantly declare himself an insolent and schismaticall exalter of himself , and of his own private judgement , against the judgement of the whole Catholique Church : and in the same way that the Church Catholique speaketh , in the same also , if need be , speaketh every particular Church . This being the extraordinary way wherein the Church speaketh not , but upon extraordinary occasions ; she hath also for ordinary occasions , a continuall constant voyce in an ordinary way ; The Church , considered in it self , is not , nor cannot be lesse than the whole Body of it ; but considered in the actions of it , any part by which it duely worketh ; as to that work onely which it so intendeth , is truely and properly enough called the Church : If we speak of a man , as of his being , as that he lives , is in health , young , lusty , &c. we mean by the man no lesse than the whole man , with all his members ; but if we speak of the particular actions of the man , as that he did hear , see , speak , take , &c. we do not then intend that every distinct member of his body did actually hear , see , speak , take , &c. but that the man performed those actions by the proper members respectively ordained for the doing of them , and that neverthelesse the office of each member so ministring , was the proper act of the whole man ; so that though the eyes of the man onely saw , his ears heard , his tongue spake , and his hands handled , yet is the whole man said truely to hear , see , speak , and handle . As then in the body naturall , so in the Body mysticall , the Church ; though the Church , in her being comprehend all members , as well Lay as Clergie , yet in her work and actions she worketh not promiscuously by all , but by her proper and ordained members ; for if every one were an eye to see , a head to judge , or a mouth to give sentence , then were they all but one equipotent member , and where then were the body ? saith S. Paul : therefore though in the question of circumcising the believing Gentiles , the letters of Ordinance went in the name of the Apostles , Elders , and Brethren ; yet plainly the Brethren had no vote in the decision of the question , but as the Apostles and Elders are onely said to have come together to consider of the matter , so the debate and decision there , is onely theirs , and the Decrees thereupon are in the 16 Chapter , called onely the Decrees that were ordained of the Apostles and Elders , and if we will have the Brethren to have been named in the Apostles Letters , to shew that Lay-men have authority to vote in matters of Religion , then must we also confesse that Lay-men , aswell as the Man of God , have authority to judge in matters of Doctrine also , for they that writ the Letters , say of the point of Doctrine , We gave no such Commandment . Therefore plainly the judgement of the Apostles and Elders , was in that matter , the judgement of the Brethren , and of the whole Church there , by their unanimous submission and agreement unto them . And when all is done , the voting of Apostles , Elders , and Brethren together , is a thing farre differing from the voting of Lay-men onely , and from Lay-mens choosing of the votes . In the same manner the voyce of the ordayned Governours and Ministers in every particular Church , in those things that are committed to their Care and Charge , is the voice of the Church it self ; and the voyce of that particular Church , not being repugnant to faith , nor the declared judgement of the Catholique Church is , ( as to the Members of that Church ) the voice of the whole Church Catholique : so that he that refuseth to hear the voice of the Governours of his particular Church , refuseth to hear his particular Church ; and not that Church onely , but the whole Church Catholique . Again , as in the body the most usefull members thereof , the eyes , the ears , the tongue , the hands , the feet would not onely be uselesse , but make a confused deformity , if they were every one annexed immediately to the grosse of the body , and not joyned by the mediation of some noble limb , the eyes , the ears , and tongue , by the head ; the hands , by the arms , and the feet , by the legs : so would it be in the Church Catholique , if every particular Member should hold it self immediately to depend on it , and not on the noble and mediating limb of his particular Church ; that so by a usefull and decent subordination of the Members under the head . The Body from thence ( as the Apostle speaks ) by joynts and bands having nourishment and knit together , may encrease with the encrease of God . These same things doth our Saviour teach , when giving a Rule for governing ones self in private offences betwixt his brother and him , he bids him Tell it to the Church : Our Saviour meant not that upon every such occasion the Church Catholique should , or could be convoked , but onely that the offended should complain to the Governours of the Church he lived in , the doing whereof , is properly to complain to the whole Church , yea to the whole Church Catholique , as appears by our Saviours adding , that if the offender refused to hear the Church , he should be as an Heathen man ; as much as to say , That if by refusing to hear his particular Church , he refused to hear the whole Chuch Catholique , he should then be as an Heathen man , cut off from the Communion of the whole Church ; for it were no just sentence to cut off one from the whole Church , for disobeying the particular , unlesse that disobedience to the particular , were disobeying of the whole Church . Every particular Church then hath so farre the authority of the Church Universall , that ( as to her own Members ) her voyce is the voyce of the Catholique Church , and tyes them all in conscience to submit their judgements to hers , and to yeeld observance to all her Ordinances that are not against the expresse Word of God , nor judgement of the Catholique Church . And even in her Ordinances that minister question , whether they be Orthodox and agreeable to the Word of God or no , her authority is so farre binding , as that even those Ordinances● are not to be rejected nor condemned upon the judgement of any of her private Members onely , but either by her own review and censure , by some more generall Nationall Assembly , or ( if the consequence require it ) by a full and true Generall Assembly of the Church ; whose sentence when once it shall be obtained , shall be received , as the most sacred , and most authentique judgement that may be had in that matter , and neerest approaching to the judgement of the holy Ghost ; but shall not be received as infallible , as if pronounced by a Judge infallible ; for what assistance soever God hath promised to his Church , it is onely such as agrees with the condition of a Church Militant , therefore he hath neither promised it to the single Ministers in every of their Preachings , neither yet so to the Church it self , as that in every of her Consultations and Decrees , she should infallibly produce the sentence of the holy Ghost ( for then were the Scripture needlesse , seeing the Church should be able to pronounce infallibly with authority , equall to the very Text , and the Church as to errour in knowledge and understanding should not be Militant , but Triumphant : but every judgement of every Church shall have such a potiority of credit and authority , in respect of the judgement of any part or Member thereof , as that it must not be rejected nor over-ruled by any other judgement , than either her own revisall and censure , Assembly of her proper Judges , a more generall Nationall Assembly , or a full generall Assembly of the Church . To conclude then , when for avoyding confusion in the Church , God hath subjected the spirits of the ( particular ) Preachers , to the concurrent judgement of all the Preachers ; for men , under pretence of preaching Gods Word , to preach their own private judgements , in detraction from the authority of their Church , and without submitting their opinions to the judgement of their Church ; this is so farre from honouring God by magnifying of his Word , as that contrarily it destroyes the authority of the Scripture , by confused and wrong arrogated judgement in interpreting of it , it by sects and schismes subverts the peace of the Church , and contrary to the Admonition that God hath given in that behalf , makes God the author of confusion . The assurance of our Orthodox profession , depending upon the consideration of these things , cannot but occasion a little further examination of them . Religion , a religando ex vi termini is that , which whatsoever it be , ought to binde the Professor ; but of all other Godlinesse ( which onely is the true Religion ) must not have that binding power of hers denyed ; and therefore will-worship , as repugnant to Religion , is to be rejected . Ye shall not ( saith Moses to the people when they were to enter into the Land , and be a setled Church ) Ye shall not ( saith he ) do as we do this day , every one that which is good in his own eyes . It is impossible for the Professor which followeth his own judgement or conscience onely , to avoid disobedience and will-worship ; for private judgement and conscience , are neither sure nor constant observers of Gods Law , nor can a man alwayes tell whether his iudgement , or his affection leads his conscience ; but as obedience is that which our Saviour himself learning , sheweth that we all must learn ; so the power of Godlinesse is to constrain obedience . And if there be a question what we shall obey , the Scripture tells us the Priests lips should preserve knowledge , and we should seek the Law at his mouth . And our Saviour tells his disciples , He that heareth you , heareth me ; and he that despiseth you , despiseth me ; and bids that he that will not hear the Church , be as an Heathen man : And St Paul tells us , The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth , and against private singularities and indecencies in the service of God : he obiects , that their Church had no such custome , neither the Churches of God : We are also commanded to submit to all manner of Ordinance of man , for the Lords sake ; And that every soul be subject to the higher power ; that he that resisteth the power , resisteth the Ordinance of God , and receiveth to himself damnation . The Scripture is abundant to this purpose , and among many other places , Gen. 27. 6. is remarkable : When Jacob ( or Israel ) was afraid , in the apparell of his elder brother , to seek his fathers supreme blessing , lest by seeking it in a undue manner , he should , instead of a blessing , get a curse ; his mother requires his obedience to her voye ; Israel obeyed her , and by it obtained the blessing . If this Allegory so much concern us , as that we be the Israel , the younger brother that want and seek the blessing , our Saviour our elder brother , in whose clothing we seek it , and God our father that gives it ; who is our directing mother , by oheying whose voyce we obtain the blessing , but she that is the wife of our father , the Church of God ? By these then , and many other Scriptures , it appears , That in all matters of Religion , wheresoever there is a doubt , and consesequently use of judgement , the iudgement of the Church is to be preferred ; So Gods Word ( which must be observed ) directs , so the exigence of things requires , the particular man cannot otherwise avoyd will-worship and singularity , nor the Church of God confusion . When now there is so great offence taken at divers Ordinances of our Church , what is there in any of them so erroneous or corrupt as to discharge ones conscience from the terror of these Precepts , and from the obedience that they command ? Is there any thing in the Ordinances of our Church against the expresse command of God ? If there be , Why do not the offended shew it , that they may justifie themselves , vindicate Gods Truth , and stop the mouthes of all gain-sayers ? But when instead of things expresly crossing Gods Commadments , they finde no exceptions but what , at the most , are disputable , grounded upon inferences and collections , and those not generally received , nor yet all approved by the judgement of any particular Church , but late imaginations of men , of a few , and them private men , whether it be meet in the sight of God , upon such grounds to follow men , or indeed ones own self , rather than God , every one may judge . And were that granted ( which indeed cannot be proved , nor may be granted ) that the Ordinances of our Church are superstitious , How yet will that warrant the disobeying of them , to a conscience that is guided onely by the Word of God ? For where is superstition by the Word of God forbidden ? Or where is it there described ? Though then we grant superstition to be the foulest corruption a Christian Church can be depraved with , and neerest approaching to Idolatry , yet being a corruption discovered by the judgement of the Church , rather than any expresse Word of God , With what warrant can any mans conscience , against Gods expresse command , disobey the Ordinance , for fear of superstition , when concerning it he hath received no command from God ? especially , when disobedience being like the sinnes of Witchcraft and Idolatry , he commits a sin that is equall to them , and onely to avoid superstition , which is lesse than either . Nay , that is not all , but while he disturbs his duty with false apprehenhensions of superstition , he with his disobedience , commits the superstition which he fears ; for when superstition properly is an over-strict religious insisting upon the doing or not doing of that which in it self is but indifferent ; his own scrupulousnesse not to kneel , not to bow , not to stand up , not to be uncovered , not to answer , &c. according to the use of the Church , is not onely disobedience , but very superstition it self , placing Religion in that wherein there is no Religion to be placed ; and teaching the conscience more to fear pollution from without , by things externally enioyned , than to fear it within , from the haughtinesse , stubbornnesse , or self-conceitednesse of the heart , than which , nothing doth sooner defile the actions of a man , and make his Religion vain . But , will he say , His conscience cannot be satisfied , but that the Ordinance of the Church in some things , is superstitious , so as he may not submit unto it . We must answer , Let him use the liberty of his consci●nce , but let him withall take heed he use it not for a cloke of maliciousnesse ; for if through weaknesse of conscience he takes offence at the Ordinance of the Church , as superstitious , which otherwise he knows himself tyed to reverence and observe , let him , in true humiliation of his soul , behave himself like one afflicted , that laments the breach between the Church and him , let him labor for satisfaction by the help of those whose integrity in that behalf , shall not by any aversenesse to the Ordinance , be suspected : let him forbear rayling language on Governours , and contemptuous behaviour towards the Ordinance , that so though he cannot be conformable , he may not yet become refractory , but may be piously embraced of the Church , till in the spirit of meeknesse he be at last restored to his strength : But if he will not do thus , but will contend , hold his own opinion sufficient to oppose against the Judgement of the Church , adde contempt to his non-conformity , seek to poss●sse others with his opinions , glory in their association , and towards the Governors of the Church be as one of those that controll the Priest , yea , that controll the whole Priest-hood ; that man , in pretending conscience , lyeth unto the holy Ghost ; he is not prest with conscience , but a lift up heart , self conceited , and affecting singularity , hath seduced him , and makes him maintain an affected scruple of his own , before the iudgement , yea , and the peace of the whole Church . From these generalls , we come somewhat more particularly to consider that which some affirm , that for remedy of the corruptions of the Church , any Assembly representative of the whole Body of any State , seeing it implicitely comprehends all Orders , Degrees , and Conditions , that are parts of the State , have full power and authority of doing whatsoever any order or part of the State may do ; and that therefore they , as well as the Clergie , may , in that State , determine what form of Ecclesiasticall Government , what discipline , what Ceremonies are most fit for the Church , and most agreeable to the Word of God . Who knows not but that by the same reason they may as well determine what Doctrines are most agreeable to the Word of God : but we shun captiousnesse , and seek our own and every ones clear satisfaction . It is true , a Body representative of the whole State , hath the power of the whole State , to do whatsoever the whole Body of the State , if it could be all assembled , could do ; but the whole State , if it were gathered together in one , and the whole Clergie in it , could not by their promiscuous Vote determine of any thing that God hath subjected to the judgement of the Clergie onely . Some argue , That the whole State be Christians , and every true Christian a spirituall man ; The Spirituall man judgeth all things ; And it is true ; but that judgement is onely as to himself , to discern and judge for his own right governance , but not to binde others therewith ; he may exercise such judgement as grace administreth , but cannot exercise directive judgement , for that is not to be practised , but by especiall Commission of Authority . It was the ground of Corah's fearfull sinne , that because all the Congregation were holy every one of them , and the Lord among them , that therefore Levites and Lay-men might offer Incense as well as the Priests : one without lawfull authority may not more meddle with decreeing the suppression of vice , and encouragement of vertue , in a way that belongs onely to the Jurisdiction of another , then might the sonnes of Sceva use the authority of Christs Name to casting out of devills ; Therefore particular men must have expresse Warrant , before they can decree any thing . And were it granted that they , if known , might in this life exercise directive judgement in Ecclesiastique affairs , yet being so small a number , in respect of worldlings , and it being impossible in this world to distinguish them , or to avoyd , but that while they vote together with worldlings , their votes will be over-ruled by worldlings : for these causes , the being inwardly a spirituall man , can nothing more avail him in that point , than if he were not so . And for this last cause , it nothing also avails , though the Clergie themselves actually vote amongst seculars ; for where the carriage of matters cannot certainly follow the votes of the Clergie , but be subject to the votes of the Seculars , their votes so given , cannot have the authority of Ecclesiastique votes , but of Lay. And both for the peace of private consciences , and also for the peace of the Church , it would advisedly be examined whether the votes of Clergy-men chosen by the Seculars ( say by the Body representative of a whole State ) be of more authority for deciding matters of Religion in question , than the votes of the Seculars themselves that chose them be ; for when by the expresse Word of God , The spirits of the Prophets , are to be subject to the Prophets , the Prophets must either all of them together hear and determine , or all of them freely make choice of such of their Brethren as shall do it for them , lest if the secular power assume the choice of the men , they , by assuming the choice of those that shall give the Clergies vote , assume the giving of their vote , and upon the matter reject the vote and judgement of the Clergie : for the few men that so be chosen , have no authority of themselves , to judge by themselves , but have the authority of those onely that made the fiduciary commitment of power to them ; and if they that committed the authority be Seculars , then is the judgement and executing of the spirit , of Seculars only . And it would further be taker into consideration , Whether , as the Bishop of Romes usurpation of the authority of the universall Church manifested him to be the great spirit of Antichrist , so in every particular Church , any usurping or undue assuming of the authority thereof , will not amount to an inferiour exercise of the same spirit ? Now whereas it is conceived that Forms of Government Ecclesiastique are not tyed to the Judgement of the Clergie , but are arbitrary as the State shall judge expedient , it is not denyed but that Church-Government may be accommodate to the occasions of the State ; but then those cautions are to be observed , ( 1 ) That as the State is Judge what form of Church-Government will be most commodious for the well-fare thereof ; so the Clergie be Judges , whether the form desired be safe for the Church , and agreeable to the Word of God ; otherwise the one may be oppressed , while the other is accommodate : Therfore we see that upon every change and remove of the Camp , not onely the taking down and folding up of the Tabernacle , and all things belonging to it , was committed to the Priests , but even the utmost act of carrying of it , when all was disposed and ordered by the Priests , was given in charge to those onely that were Levites : And whereunto are helps in Government reckoned among Apostles , Prophets , Teachers , and other Members which Christ hath set in his Church , if the Government of the Church be to be managed by those that are not to be numbred among them . And if among Pastors which God hath set in his Church , he hath ordained some to be helps in Government , how dangerous a matter will it be for those that are not of their calling , to iustifie them out of their authority , and in that point usurp their Function ? Moses hath long since put terrour in the case , when with a Propheticall spirit praying for Levi , he saith , Smite thorow the loyns of them that rise up against him : And the Prophet likewise , where speaking of the Church , he saith , No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper , and every tongue that crieth against thee in Judgement , thou shalt condemn : And our Saviour himself , where he saith to his Apostles , What ye binde on earth , shall be bound in Heaven . Another Caution to be observed , is , That in accommodating Church-Government to the frame and occasion of the State , nothing be disestablished or unsetled , that seems to have been setled by any authority of the Scripture . Therefore whereas we see there , the Government of the Church first setled , in the hands of Bishops ( that is , of Pastors that had authority over Pastors , To rebuke with all authority : Not to suffer themselves to be despised : a To ordain Elders : b To receive accusation against them : c To charge some to preach no other Doctrine : d To step the mouthes of unruly deceivers : e To set in order things that are wanting , &c. ) And we finde not any other form of Church-Government neither in the Scripture , nor in the practice of the Universall Church , as well ▪ where the Pope never ruled , as where he did ; that therefore men make not such an accommoda●ing as by an entire rejecting of the Ordinance set on foot by the Apostles themselves , so appearing in the Scripture , and Universally so followed by the Church , they reiect both the Judgement of the Universall Church , and also of the Spirit of God revealed in the Scripture . For as in the change of the Sabbath from the Saturday to the Lords Day , the Church hath clearly shown that she had power to make such a change ; but that change being once made for important causes , the like whereof hereafter can never happen , that power of hers once lawfully used , can never lawfully come to be used again , because there can no more such ground and cause to do it , come again to passe ; So it is likewise in point of Episcopall Government ; though the whole form and frame of it is not so expressely prescribed , but that the Church may , in many things , have power of making therein accommodations to the times and exigence of State ; yet may not those acts of accommodation amount to such a height , as to subvert or abolish the Government which by the iudgement of her Members than infallible was set on foot , because no judgement of her present Members now , can come in any competition with her first : And if any State shall so accommodate it self , the accommodators may , perhaps , be found fighters against the Spirit of God , manifested both in the Scripture , and in the Judgement and practice of the Universall Church of God . One further particular depending upon these points , and necessary for every one to have his conscience clear and well assured , is the lawfulnesse of the Liturgie of our Church , concerning which , these considerations present themselves . The Church being freed from the tyranny of the Heathen persecutors , and setled in peace , it was necessary that God ( that had done so great things for her ) should be honored , not onely by the private devotion of her single Members , but also with the publike service of her greatest Congregation ; And seeing that in the Church Jerusalem ( ever since Christianity ) becoming inhabited without walls , occasions the making of as many places of Worship , as there are places of severall cohabitation ; it was necessary , both for observing decency and order , for avoiding confusion ; and for shewing ( by asmuch unity of way as might be ) the unanimity ▪ and true communion of the Churches members ; that thorowout all her severall Congregations ( at least , all of one Nation ) one Form of Divine Service should universally be observed . Hence have the Western Churches ( where Religion flourished most and longest ) received much what one Form perhaps not all at once , nor alwayes the very same , but with some addition or change , as use and experience gave occasion ▪ untill the Church of Rome ( corrupting with her greatnesse ) suffered not the service of God to be exempt from her corruptions ; and growing at length so licentious in them , as even to subvert the Fundamentalls of Religion ; It pleased God in divers parts , so farre to enlighten and strengthen his Church , as to examine the Romane alterations by the Test of Gods Word , which the Church of England having more happily than others performed , reiected what was repugnant to Gods Word , and wisely retaining the rest , left us that Form of Divine Service , that unto this day , by the Laws of this Kingdome , is advisedly confirmed in the Church . In this our restored Liturgie , the long practised judgement of the Church ( regarding one way the property of devotion , and another the infirmity of man ) thought it fitting not to have prayers , preaching , and thanksgiving alone , without the publique reading also of the very Word of God ; neither thought they it fit that the Confessions of sins , Supplications and Thanksgivings that publikely were to be made , should all at once in one continued exercise be performed , lest happily in many , devotion wanting matter of present excitation , should wax cold , and then the intention of the minde growing remisse , and the thoughts wandring , men in spight of their hearts should with their lips onely , perform an empty mock-God service . To the end therefore that the whole service of the Congregation should be truely publikely performed with true communion , and likewise with true and lively fervour of spirit , they ordained such change and succession of all duties belonging to Gods service , as might best make those severall duties most effectuall to the performers . First therefore , That the Congregation observing one and the same demeanour thorowout all her Members , should upon their knees , with loud voyces , and articular Confessions , make an humble and publike and acknowledgement of their sins , and vile dition , and beseech God for mercy and forgivenesse ; and the Minister , for the comfort of the penitent , to pronounce Gods pronesse to forgive , and to pray for them , and with them . That after their humiliation they should with Hymnes of mutuall exhortation taken out of Scripture , stirre up one another to proceed to praise , to singing and rejoycing before God . Then some portions of the Scripture should be read in course , of which , the Psalms should ever be part , which because they contain matter so abundantly usefull for instruction , for meditation , for comfort , prayer , praise , and thanksgiving , they should therefore be read alternally betwixt the Minister and the Congregation , to make them in publique more fervent in the prayers and praises wherewith the Psalms abound , and to make them also more perfect in the Contents of them for their private use ; then as Gods works ( especially of man Redemption ) are so done as that they ought to be had in remembrance , so on Sundayes , and other dayes of especiall Commemoration of them , such portions of Scripture as tended most to the setting forth of Gods work on that day annually commemorated , should be read ; at the end of which , the Congregation ( as moved by the impressions which these portions ought to make in every one ) to render God that praise , that glory and blessing which the sense of his mercy in his work then declared , doth justly procure from the heart and mouth of the thankfull hearer ; and this they do in Hymnes either taken out of Scripture , or composed and allowed by the ancient and generall approbation of the Church . After the Lessons of Scripture and Hymnes ended , the Congregation to stand up , and make a publique confession of their faith , and then prostrate on their knees in prayers fitted to the divers necessities and infirmities of humane nature , to make supplications for all sorts , degrees , and conditions of men ; in which the Minister should not alwayes himself alone utter the words of prayer , but ( for the better entertainment and incitement of devotion ) every Member of the Congregation , with frequent interjecting of their Votes and Invocations , should like more active parties in Gods service make a more frequent and effectuall joynt importuning of him . Then ( after an especiall prayer for grace and sanctification ) the two Tables of Commandments to be read , which summarily containing our whole duty both to God and man , the Congregation conscious of the breach of every one of them , should at the reading of each Commandment , cry out for mercy for their breaking of it , and implore grace for the betcer observing of it in future : And that done , some choice portions of Scripture of especiall comfort and instruction , and more especially relating to the work of Redemption that day commemorated , taken out of the Epistles of the Apostles , and the Gospel of the Evangelists to be read , with which ( unlesse the Communion be administred , the Word preached , or an Homily read ) the publique service of the Church to be concluded with certain prayers , and with the Ministers blessing of the people . How well this Ordinance provides for offering unto God the reasonable service of man , we must leave unto the consciences of every man . As for the exceptions that are made against it , they are chiefly these : First , in generall , That it is popish superstitious , Antichristian , ( a charge which is very foul , if true ) then in particular , That it is in a set Form . Now first to be popish , is no more than to partake of the Manners , Customes , or Ordinances of the Popes , which when in plain tearms it is not forbidden in the Scripture , we must seek how it it comes to passe , that to partake of them must be unlawfull . The Popes ( briefly ) were the Bishops of Rome , of which the formost having both for life and doctrine been glorious members of the Church , that Church grew so renowned , as that for judgement in matters of Religion , they had the priority of repute , were to the Western Church the authors of many good Ordinances in Religion , and the great support thereof ; till abusing their repute , and by little and little degenerating , they grew into so unspeakable corruptions ▪ as no intelligent man may partake in those things with them , without a conscious committing of manifest sin against the Word of God . Now though ●heir corruptions are by all means to be rejected , yet are they not therefore corrupt , or to be rejected because they were the acts of Popes , but because they were things which the Popes acted contrary to the Word of God ; so as repugnancy to Gods Word being the true and onely ground of their unlawfulnesse , we can reckon them no further unlawfull than that ground or reason will demonstrate : and we may no more for respect of persons ( be they Popes or whatsoever ) call good evill , or evill good , then we may for respect of persons break the Commandments of God ; Nor is it more to be abhorred as a popish corruption to use the Ordinances of Popes , which are not wicked Ordinances in themselves , than blessing the people of in the words wherewith Balaam blessed them , is to be abhorred as a Balaamish corruption ; for when by the names of Popish , Jewish , Heathenish , &c. we condemne any thing , we all intend that the thing condemned is of the nature of those things wherein they were especially corrupt , and not of the nature of their doings , which were neither good nor evill , and much lesse of the nature of those wherein they excelled ; So as to be popish simply being no argument of necessary faultinesse , we must see whether our Liturgie partakes of any popish corruption or no . To come readily to the matter , when in all the whole Frame of our Liturgie there is no Worship nor Innovation , but of the true God onely ; neither is he worshipped any other way , than by the sole and immediate mediation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ , there first can be no Idolatrous corruption in the Liturgie . Secondly , It cannot be Antichristian , because that contrary to the proper work of Antichrist ( which is to deny the Son and the Father , and as God in the Temple of God , to exalt himself above all that is called God ) the Liturgie thorowout the whole course thereof , makes an exact acknowledgement , adoration , and exaltation above all things whatsoever ; and as it acknowledges them in profession , so there is not any thing in it , whereby they are denyed in practice ; So as to call it Antichristian is a malicious slander against the clear truth examined by the Light and Rule of Gods Word . Lastly , It cannot be superstitious neither ; for howsoever in the performance of it there may be some few Ceremonies brought in , which rightly weighed , do perhaps conduce more to worldly solemnity and ostentation in Religion , than to true and necessary religious decency and reverence , and therefore would be laid down , yet being things otherwise indifferent , introduced for decency onely , and not pressed as things of any other necessity , they can ( at the worst ) be but errours of Judgement , mistaking what is decent and orderly , they cannot be superstitious , seeing they are not made matters of Religion , but of decency and order , without which , nothing ought to be done . When then , according to true understanding and intention , nothing is meant popish , but what partakes of the superstitious corruptions of the Popes , the Liturgy of the English Church must needs be acquit and discharged , not onely of the infamous calumny of being Idolatrous , Antichristian , and suspicious , but even also of that malicious aspersion of popish ; And then it will follow , That the censures of those sinners against their own souls , who in and for these things do falsly judge , censure , and condemn their Mother Church , and renounce obedience to her , and communion with her , because , as they suppose , she is popish , superstitious , idolatrous , Antichristian ; their unjust censures ( I say ) will prove the condemnation of themselves , both of uncharitablenesse , of self-conceit , and of insolent exalting themselves against the Church of God at least , if not of Antichristian persecution of it also ; and the more for this , That while they promise liberty and freedome from superstition , they themselves become slaves unto superstition , making a matter of Religion not to obey the Ordinance of their Church in things indifferent , and where the Word of God doth not forbid obedience , but command it . This briefly touching the generall exceptions , Popish , Superstitious , Idolatrous , Antichristian . As for the particular exception , That in our Liturgy all prayer , praise , and thanksgiving is in a set Form , a device of mans , not the command of God ; a muzling of the Ministers spirit , a nurse of idlenesse , and means of neglecting the gifts and graces of God , &c. We must consider , 1. That there is not any expresse Scripture against set Forms of prayer , and therefore the use of it is not against any expresse command of God . 2. All Christian Churches thorowout the world , as well the Greek and Eastern ( where Popery never raigned ) as these our Western Churches when once they attained a setled Government , have in all ages served God in set Forms of Divine Service ; yea , even the reformed Churches beyond Sea use some set Forms . And for our set Liturgy , if any man lift to be contentious against it , we can truely say , It is the Custome of our Church , and also of the Churches of God ; and then the depravers of it will prove to be despisers of Authority , and advancers of their own private judgement against the Universall Judgment of the Church Catholique . 3 Under the Law there were set Forms of publike Confessions , Thanksgivings , Blessings , &c. which being no part of the Ceremoniall , is warrant enough for Christians to use the like . 4. The Psalms of David ( which as they abound with all those necessary parts of Gods publike service , confession of sins , prayers , Praise and Thanksgiving , so especially with Prayer ) many of them having that Title ( A Prayer ) they were not onely used publikely by both the Jewes Church and the Christians , but were penned to that end , and dedicated to the Priests that had the Office of praising God , and were most excellent in those kindes of Musick to which they were set , and the most excellent passages of praise and prayer in them had the word Selah added to them , to the end that in the publike use of them , those passages might be iterated , and said or sung over again . Also our Saviour himself having given us one Form of set Prayer ( which he bids , When ye pray , Say ) and not at all forbidden the use of set Forms , makes it out of question , that to pray in a given Form is lawfull ( so the Form be good ) And what doubt we but when John Baptist taught his Disciples to pray , he did it by giving them some Form , which our Saviours Apostles liking , desired to have the like from him , and our Saviour ( we see ) did not so much give them Precepts and Rules , instructing them how to make prayers of their own ( though his Prayer hath that office too ) but gave them a perfect prayer in an exact conceived Form , how much should men fear that their conscience ( offended at the use of set prayer , without the Light of Gods Word declaring it to be unlawfull ) are consciences blinded with superstition , afraid where no fear is , and their consciences not onely darkened , but their hearts also seduced with self-conceit and singularity , unto perverse and affected contention with the Church . 5. While they pretend to be free Ministers from a supposed restraint put upon their spirits by the use of set Forms , they lay a reall restraint upon the spirits of all Congregations ; who being always perfect in the Contents and use of their set prayers , do with prepared hearts and spirits attend the publike and joynt presenting of their known supplications to God for those mercies and graces which the Church , by those Forms , declares all men to stand in need of , and every ones particular spirit attesteth to be necessary for him : But if all Congregations ( which God forbid ) should be deprived of the use of them , every man shall go to Church bound in the spirit , and know not what supplications he shall make to God , till the mouth of the Minister shall declare it , and then the single Minister ( whatsoever his gifts or faculties be ) shall determine of the devotion of the whole Congregation , and conclude them all , that they shall make no publike Invocation of God , neither for matter nor form , otherwise than as his spirit , and perhaps sudden conceit , shall minister unto him . 6. When all the Service of the Church shall stand onely upon the strength and gifts of the Preachers , and they differing in gifts one from another , it will inevitably follow , That those of the best gifts will more draw disciples after them than ever , and men will become followers of men , when they shall have no other means of publike communion with God , either to hear him , or to speak unto him , than onely by the gifts of the Preacher , and so the Church shall , against Gods Word , be necessarily drawn into Sectarism and Division . 7. Lastly , If we change our set Forms of D●vine Worship into the various and arbitrary service that is to be performed by the Minister onely , among many evills ( not now to be foreseen ) there is to be feared , that when men shall have known no other publike exercise of Religion , than by the Preachers arbitrary administration , and that he be generally beh●ld , as the onely Minister of the spirit , of publike service and prayer , the consciences of men thenceforth subdued to an awfull dependance on him , shall finde the Ministers ( like the Jesuites ) through the Soveraignty they hold in matters of Religion , to exercise an externall dominion over their fortunes also , and set on foot a more dangerous tyranny in Religion , than hitherto the Church hath ever known . And if their opposition to set Forms of publike Service , and to what is used in the Church of Rome shall proceed so far , as to reject the publike reading of the Scripture ( eight severall Lessons or portions of which are now , by Gods mercifull providence , dayly , or at least every Sunday and holy-day , publikely read in the Church ) then shall our Church of England , by an ill-guided meaning to oppose the Church of Rome , come to imitate her , and towards her children commit the same cruelty that we justly condemn the Church of Rome for using towards hers ; who though she suffer her Layicks to hear the Word preached , yet suffers them not to hear in their own Tongue the powerfull Word of God read unto them ; and we , as well as the Romanists , shall ( toward those that cannot , or are carelesse to reade ) even wholly take away the means which our pious Mother the Church hath ordained for their conversion , And whereas such publike reading of Gods lively and powerfull Word is no mean degree of Preaching , we shall , in an important part , suppresse the Word of God , and through disuse of frequent hearing , breed a generall unacquaintednesse with the Precepts and Stories of the Scripture , which will in time hinder both the understanding and applying of that which shall be preached . We need not further seek to give particular answer to every quarrell that is now made against severall parts and passages of our Liturgy . But when kneeling at the receit of the Sacrament is so agreeable to the religious performance of that Duty , and yet is quarrelled with , we cannot in silence passe it over : For when want of due preparation is dangerous , yet is not performed without humiliation , contrition , abhorring ones self , forgiving others , turning to them in all charitable affections , thirsting for grace , and fervent invocation of the Divine Majesty for them ; how can we perform these rightly , without the lowliest prostration of soul and body that one can solicite God withall ? Will we say , It should be done before , but not at our receiving ? It is true , it ought to be begun before , but he that can so approve of his preparation before , as to cease and say , I have done enough , he is rather to fear his presumption , than to rest in such preparation , he perhaps makes a popish opus operatum , of his preparation , and cries peace , before there is peace ; nor can he say kneeling is an unfit posture to receive that grace in , which is fittest to be begged on our knees . Will we say kneeling is Idolatry to the Bread and Wine ? We must then shew that it is commanded to be done to the Bread and Wine , or intended so , or at least , by Protestants abused so , if none of those be , but it be commanded only as the proper expression of the reverence and humiliation belonging to the duty , then is the exception not onely without cause , but slanderous and malicious . Will we say , That in the Institution of it , our Saviour made not the disciples kneel ; True , but let us also confesse that the disciples had the Bride-groom with them ; who , though he were their Lord , yet called them friends , and admitted them to a liberty sutable . We will not ( I am sure ) say the Sacrament is now to be celebrated in all things as it was then , and no otherwise ; and if in any thing there be liberty of receding from what was done at first , whose judgement shall we trust what we must hold , and what we may recede from , if not the Judgement and Practice of the Universall Church from the first to this present ? And if indeed we would observe the first Institution , Why spurn we at receiving it together at the Table , for so the the disciples did ? And Saint Paul calls it the partaking of the Table of the Lord ; and David , The preparing of a Table for us : Truely the receiving every one , or every family apart by themselves in their seats , ●uits not with observing of Communion , nor coming together to eat , nor eating together into one Body , but savours of singularity and inconformablenesse to the observance of a true Eucharist . It is not to be expected we should here examine all the dissentitions in Religion that are among us . But seeing that in generall they are the quarrells of particular men for exercise of Religion , in wayes either besides , or contrary to the established Ordinances and usage of our Church ( in which yet they can neither charge the Church , with violating the Word of God , nor shew by the judgement of the Church Catholike , that their own exercise of Religion is that which by the Word of God , is only to be taught and practised ; ) It will not be unnecessary , to represent to further search and consideration , how much some passages of Gods Word ( too little examined by us ) are pertinent to the decision of these matters . For , Whereas true Christianity is a perfect Catholicisme , and contrarily Antichristianisme , or fighting against God , walks in singularities , partialities , sects , separations , and the like . It is too apparant , that the wayes wherein men now pretend , that the true exercise of Religion lyeth , do very much hold the byasse of Sectarisme ; who sees it not in our extraordinary running after choice and affected Teachers ? In which , though the shew of godlinesse so awes our judgements , that we distrust no errour in it ; yet does it concern us to take heed of a deceiveablenesse of unrighteousnesse in it . To love , desire , and seek , the lively delivery of Gods Word , is good , and our duty , and so is it also to love , and honour the Preacher for the Words sake . But there is great danger in the comparing , preferring , and despising of one , in respect of another ; For while we assume the judgement , and choice of our Teachers , and hear , and follow them according as we like their Doctrine , and no otherwise : We under the shew of godly longing after Gods Word , and honouring the choice Preachers of it , discover an hidden exaltation of our selves , and of our own mindes , and judgements , both above the Preachers , and the Word they preach . On the other side toward the Ordinance of the Church , and our proper Ministers , we do not only unduely exalt our selves , but adde unto it disobedience ; yea , even a faulting of Gods providence , we make our own Jordans , too shallow brooks to cleanse our Leprosies . Our Siloams that are sent ; too unclean pooles to help our blindnesse : Yea , and we refuse the waters of Shiloah for no other reason , then that , they runne softly ; We choose our selves streams to our liking , which like the Rivers of Damascus must be better waters , and of more approved depth and current . Every one must follow his Paul , his Apollo , his Cephas , his Christ . And as our selves encline to these wayes , so have we Teachers that cherish that inclination in us , and finde it no small advantage to them , that by applying themselves to the present affectations of men , they can so draw Disciples after them . For the effecting of which , Though the weak in faith , ought not to be received to doubtfull disputations ; yet they , making no difference between strong and weak , School and Pulpit , Governours and private Men , do unto their vulgar Auditories ( who , they know have neither capacity to judge , nor authority to reform ) frequently preach their own apprehensions concerning the Government of the Church , and the right exercise of Religion , not only in things apparent , and agreed on , but even in things which they themselves have lately questioned , and drawn in doubt , whether they be right or no . By which means , private presumption , insolence , self-conceipt , disdain , uncharitablenesse , and disobedience ( sins most incompatible with true Religion ) are grown so great and generall , as that they are become like an Epidemick contagion , putting all men in a maze , what shall be the end and consequence of them . Of which when we cannot have a greater admonition , then where the Spirit of God sets forth the last and perilous times of the Church ; It is not amisse to summe up into one entire view , what it is , that the Holy Ghost doth there admonish us of . Our Saviour himself first warnes the Church , to beware of false prophets , that come ( saith he ) in sheeps cloathing , but inwardly are ravening Woolves . Whom that we may know he gives a rule , Ye shall know them by their fruits , and in another place , by their works : Where we must note , the fruits and works , are to be taken , as they are in themselves , and as they are naturally taken notice of in all mens understandings ; otherwise we make our Saviour teach , ignotum per ignotius . It is true , that in every fruit and work that is good in it self , if an evill circumstance , or way , or end , accompany it , the fruit that was good in it self , may by way , or end , be made evill , as if mercy , charity , zeal , &c. be shewed for ostentation , or for a cloak of pretence , &c. But in evill fruits , and works , it is other wise , for no end , or circumstance whatsoever , can make that work good , that is evill in it self , as disobedience , sedition , treason , &c. For God having no need of a wicked man , and forbidding us , Thou shalt not do evill , that good may come thereon , he takes from evill works all the help that their good end , or circumstances may do them . When therefore we finde a deed , that in it self is evill , we must not make that good , for the good end , or good intent of the doer ; but contrarily , we must make him a misdoer , notwithstanding the good end and intent of the action . Our Saviour further reveals , That many shall come in his name , and shall deceive many ; the manner of whose coming , he intimates to be by way of secret insinuation here in the Chamber , or by way of seperation there in the Wildernesse . In the Acts of the Apostles , Saint Paul gives warning of the like false Teachers , and tells the Pastours of the Church , Of your own selves shall men arise , preaching perverse things , to draw away Disciples after them . In the second of the Thessalonians , he foretells of a falling away , and of the revealing of the man of sinne that exalteth himself above all that is called God , or worshipped ; whose coming he shews to be after the working of Satan , with all power , and signes , and lying wonders , and with all deceiveablenesse of unrighteousnesse . Again in the first of Timothy , he foretells a departing of some from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits , and that speak lies in hypocrisie , forbidding marriage , and meats . In the second of Timothy , he declares that in the last dayes , perilous times shall come , the perilousnesse of which he shews to be in this , That men shall be lovers of themselves , covetous , boasters , proud , truce-breakers , false-accusers , incontinent , fierce , despisers of the good , traiterous , heady , high minded , &c. having a form of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof , &c. Of which sort are they that creep into houses , and lead captive silly women , laden with divers lusts , ever learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth . And lastly , That the time would come , when they would not endure sound Doctrine , but after their own lusts , heap to themselves Teachers . Saint Peter forewarneth also of false Teachers , shewing that they should privily bring in damnable heresies , even denying the Lord that bought them ; and an especiall description of whom , he maketh in this , that they despise Government , are presumptuous , self willed , and not afraid to speak evil of dignities . Saint John tells us , That as we have heard that Antichrist shall come , even now there are many Antichrists . And them he deciphers by their inconformity , and disobedience . They went out from us ( saith he ) but are not of us , for if they had been of us , they would have continued with us . Lastly , Saint Iude in his generall Epistle , warneth the universall Church of men of like singularities , noted by this , that they creep in unawares , that they despise dominion , and speak evill of dignities , that they speak evill of those things they understand not , that they go the wayes of Cain , and runne greedily after the errour of Balam for reward , and perish in the gain saying of Core , ( as much as to say , men of unbrotherlike affections , seekers of their own gain , and disobedient to their Superiours ; ) further , that they are murmurers , complainers , walking after their own lusts , speaking swelling words , having mens persons in admiration for advantage ; And lastly , That they be they that seperate themselves . What have we in this , but an entire description of the whole practice of the spirit of errour , and of adversation to Christianity , which the Scripture calleth Antichrists . By which , sinne ( that through the light of the Gospel was subdued , and deprived of his first and naturall Empire , consisting in the viciousnesse of corrupt nature ) turning himself unto his Artes , like the divell into an Angel of light , does now with refined and mysterious falsities , ( such as resemble Piety , and true Religion ) renew his onsets in a warfare of a more dangerous consequence ; so various and ( in apparance ) so contrary often to sinne , as puts the strongest Christian to the use of all his Armour of righteousnesse , as well on the right hand , as on the left , to be able to withstand him . This Antichristianisme is here represented to us in a twofold form . The first an Empire of mysterious sinne ; A body of members well united together under one head , or Soveraigne , set forth one while by the names of the Man of sinne , The sonne of perdition , The wicked one ; Another while by the name of Babylon the great , The mother of fornications , The greatwhore , &c. The description of which Empire is in such Characters , as marveilously sureth with the Roman Papacy . The other form of mysterious wickednesse is , of a quite contrary nature . A loose Anarchy of singulars , of men by themselves , not united together in one by any common Bond of true Communion ; but ( like quicksands cast together , by the working of the Sea , and from time to time shifted and changed with it ) so they , as judgements , private ends , or affections do concur , are brought accidentally to a concurrence among themselves , but without any ground , or sollid principle of uniting . For though they seem to put on the Yoak of Christ , yet every one keeps the Bonds of the yoak in his own hands , and is the Soveraign Arbiter of his own obedience . Notwithstanding which contrariety of theirs to the Roman Church ( who abuses obedience as these do liberty ) they are no other then derivatives of the same spirit of errour , begot by way of opposition , on her that is the mother of fornications . Who having against the manifest Word of God usurped a tyrannicall soveraignty both over Gods Word , his Church , and all the Princes of his Church , and being beaten from it , the divell instead of quitting the rule , that he held by her Monarchall tyranny , changes only his vicegerent , and continues the same usurpation in a popular , and Anarchall way ; that is , by the hands of every particular man , or number of men , who ( abusing the example of rejection of her usurped authority ) shall invade and reject all authority how lawfully soever established in the Church . Both are opposers of Christs Doctrine , both usurpers of the authority of his Church ; both hiding their usurpation under a form of godlinesse ; they differ but in this , Men in the one , partake only of the iniquity by influence from the head ; but in the other , every distinct member , is the originall Author of it to himself . We finding then such an alarme in the Scripture blown against perverse , and self-led professors of Religion , set forth unto us by such Characters , as Wolves , Foll●wers of Cain , Balaam , and Corah , cursed children , and the like ; Notwithstanding that they have sheeps cloathing , forms of godlinesse , and fained words to cover them . It remains , that we strictly examine what fruits , or works , have passed our hands , which in their common and naturall acceptation are evill , though brought forth for good ends , and that we utterly relinquish them , that we take heed of wayes of singularity , that lead to false accusation , trayterousnesse , headynesse , high-mindednesse , and denying of the power of godlinesse ; That we take heed of the doctrines of those that draw disciples after them , That creep into houses , That go out from the fellowship of the Apostles , and continue not with them , That follow the wayes of Cains uncharitablenesse , of Balaams prophesying for lucre , or of Corabs disobedience ; That we take heed of those that despise Government , Are presumptuous , self-willed , not afraid to speak evill of dignities , that despise dominion , have mens persons in admiration because of advantage , That heap to themselves Teachers , That separate themselves . And lastly , That while we justly hate Popery , we do not in any thing partake of that sinne of the Popes which made him that hatefull Apostate , and mysticall enemy of the Church , namely , That we do not , by assuming into a wrong hand any power or authority which God hath by his Word committed to the Body of the Pastors of his Church onely , rob him of his rightfull Jurisdiction , as they that have invaded his Tythes and Offerings , robbed him of his rightfull Possessions . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A61101e-150 2 Pet. 1. 20. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Matth. 28. 20. Luk. 10. 16. Ioh. 16. 13. 1 Cor. 14. 32 , 33. 1 Cor 11. 16. 1 Cor. 12. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 19. Acts 15. 23. Acts 16. 4 ▪ Coloss. 2. 19. Matth. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 14. 32. ● Tim. 3 2. Deut. 12. 8. Heb 5. 8. Mala. 2. 7. 1 Tim. 3. 15. 1 Cor. 1 Pet. 2 13 Gen. 17. 6. 1 Sam. 15. 23. Hos. 4. 4. Num. 16. 3 Act. 19. 14 1 Cor. 14. 32. Numb. 4. 15. 1 Cor 12. 28. Deut. 33. 11. Isa. 54. 17. Tit. 2. 15. 1 Tim. 4. 12. a Tit. 1. 5. b 1 Tim. 5. 19 c 1 Tim. 13 d Tit. 1. 11. e Tit. 1. 5. Psal. 111. 4 Isa. 5. 20. 1 Ioh 2. 22. 2 Thessal . 2. 4. 1 Cor. 14. 40. Viz. Two in the Psalmes , two in the old Testament , two in the new , and two out of the Epistles and Gospels . 1 Cor. 10. 21. Psal. 23. Io. 9. 7. Isai. 8. 5. 1 Cor. 1. 11. Act. 29. 30 2 Thessal . 2. 3. 1 Tim 3 2 2 Tim 3. 2. 2 Pet. 2. 10. 1 Ioh. 2. 19 Ep. Iude 4. 2 ▪ Thes. 2. 3 , and 8. 1 Pet. 2. 15 ▪ Ep. Iude 11. Mal. 3. 8. 
A62578	----	The Protestant religion vindicated, from the charge of singularity & novelty in a sermon preached before the King at White-Hall, April the 2d 1680 / by John Tillotson ... Tillotson, John, 1630-1694. 1680 Approx. 38 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A62578 Wing T1214 ESTC R4634 11957722 ocm 11957722 51555 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A62578) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 51555) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 518:3) The Protestant religion vindicated, from the charge of singularity & novelty in a sermon preached before the King at White-Hall, April the 2d 1680 / by John Tillotson ... Tillotson, John, 1630-1694. 33, [1] p. Printed for Brabazon Aylmer ..., and William Rogers ..., London : 1680. Running title: A sermon preached before the King. Advertisement: p. [1] at end. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Sermons. Sermons, English -- 17th century. 2004-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-09 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2004-09 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Protestant Religion VINDICATED , From the Charge of Singularity & Novelty : IN A SERMON Preached before the KING AT WHITE-HALL , April the 2d . 1680. By JOHN TILLOTSON , D. D. Dean of Canterbury , and Chaplain in Ordinary to His MAJESTY . Published by His Majesties special Command . LONDON : Printed for Brabazon Aylmer , at the Three Pigeons over-against the Royal Exchange in Cornhil : and William Rogers at the Sun , over-against St. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet . 1680. JOSHUA xxiv . 15. If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve . THese are the words of Joshua ; who , after he had brought the People of Israel thorough many difficulties and hazards into the quiet possession of the promised land , like a good Prince and Father of his Country was very sollicitous , before his death , to lay the firmest foundation he could devise of the future happiness and prosperity of that People in whose present settlement he had , by the blessing of God , been so successful an instrument . And because he knew no means so effectual to this end , as to confirm them in the Religion and Worship of the true God , who had by so remarkable and miraculous a Providence planted them in that good Land ; he summons the people together , and represents to them all those Considerations that might engage them and their posterity for ever , to continue in the true Religion . He tells them what God had already done for them , and what he had promised to do more , if they would be faithful to him : And on the other hand , what fearful calamities he had threatned , and would certainly bring upon them , in case they should transgress his Covenant and go and serve other Gods. And after many Arguments to this purpose , he concludes with this earnest Exhortation at the 14th verse , Now therefore fear the Lord , and serve him in sincerity and in truth , and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood , and in Egypt ; and serve ye the Lord. And to give the greater weight and force to this Exhortation , he do's by a very eloquent kind of insinuation as it were once more set them at liberty , and leave them to their own election : It being the nature of man to stick more stedfastly to that which is not violently imposed , but is our own free and deliberate choice : And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve . Which words offer to our consideration these following Observations . 1. It is here supposed that a Nation must be of some Religion or other . Joshua do's not put this to their choice , but takes it for granted . 2. That , though Religion be a matter of choice , yet it is neither a thing indifferent in it self , nor to a good Governour what Religion his people are of . Joshua do's not put it to them as if it were an indifferent matter whether they served God or Idols ; he had sufficiently declared before which of these was to be preferred . 3. The true Religion may have several prejudices and objections against it : If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord , intimating that upon some accounts , and to some persons , it may appear so . 4. That the true Religion hath those real advantages on its side , that it may safely be referr'd to any considerate mans choice . And this seems to be the true Reason why Joshua refers it to them : Not that he thought the thing indifferent , but because he was fully satisfied that the truth and goodness of the one above the other was so evident , that there was no danger that any prudent man should make a wrong choice , If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve ; intimating , that the plain difference of the things in competition would direct them what to chuse . 5. The Example of Princes and Governours hath a very great influence upon the people in matters of Religion . This I collect from the Context : And Joshua was sensible of it ; and therefore though he firmly believed the true Religion to have those advantages that would certainly recommend it to every impartial mans judgment , yet knowing that the multitud ▪ are easily imposed upon and led into error , he thought fit to encline and determine them by his own example , and by declaring his own peremptory resolution in the case , Chuse you this day whom you will serve ; as for me , I and my house will serve the Lord. Laws are a good security to Religion ; but the Example of Governours is a living Law , which secretly over-rules the minds of men , and bends them to a compliance with it , — Non sic inflectere sensus Humanos edicta valent , ut vita Regentis . The Lives and Actions of Princes have usually a greater sway upon the minds of the People than their Laws . All these Observations are I think very natural , and very considerable . I shall not be able to speak to them all ; but shall proceed so far as the time and your patience will give me leave . First , It is here supposed that a Nation must be of some Religion or other . Joshua do's not put it to their choice , whether they would worship any Deity at all . That had been too wild and extravagant a supposition , and which it is likely in those days had never entered into any mans mind . But he takes it for granted that all people will be of some Religion ; and then offers it to their consideration which they would pitch upon , Chuse you this day whom you will serve , whether the gods which your fathers served , &c. Religion is a thing to which men are not only formed by education and custom , but , as Tully says , Quo omnes duce naturâ vehimur , It is that to which we are all carried by a natural inclination : which is the true Reason why some Religion or other hath so universally prevailed in all Ages and places of the world . The temporal felicity of men , and the ends of Government can very hardly , if at all , be attained without Religion . Take away this , and all Obligations of Conscience cease : and where there is no obligation of Conscience , all security of Truth and Justice and mutual confidence among men is at an end . For why should I repose confidence in that man , why should I take his word , or believe his promise , or put any of my interests and concernments into his power who hath no other restraint upon him but that of humane Laws ; and is at liberty in his own mind and principles to do whatever he judgeth to be expedient for his interest , provided he can but do it without danger to himself ? So that declared Atheism and Insidelity doth justly bring men under a jealousie and suspition with all mankind : And every wise man hath reason to be upon his guard against those from whom he hath no cause to expect more justice and truth and equity in their dealings than he can compel them to by the mere dint and force of Laws . For by declaring themselves free from all other obligations they give us fair warning what we are to expect at their hands , and how far we may trust them . Religion is the strongest band of humane Society ; and God so necessary to the welfare and happiness of mankind , as if the Being of God himself had been purposely designed and contrived for no other end but the benefit and advantage of men : So that very well may it be taken for granted , that a Nation must be of some Religion or other . Secondly , Though Religion be a matter of our choice , yet it is neither a thing indifferent in it self , nor to a good Governour , what Religion his people are of . Notwithstanding the supposition of the Text , Joshua doth not leave them at liberty whether they will serve God or Idols ; but by a very Rhetorical Scheme of Speech endeavours to engage them more firmly to the worship of the true God. To countenance and support the true Religion , and to take care that the people be instructed in it , and that none be permitted to debauch and seduce men from it , properly belongs to the Civil Magistrate . This power the Kings of Israel always exercised , not only with allowance , but with great approbation and commendation from God himself . And the case is not altered since Christianity : The better the Religion is , the better it deserves the countenance and support of the Civil Authority . And this Power of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion was never called in question , but by the Enthusiasts of these later times : And yet among these , every Father and Master of a Family claims this Power over his Children and Servants , at the same time that they deny it to the Magistrate over his Subjects . But I would fain know where the difference lyes . Hath a Master of a Family more power over those under his Government than the Magistrate hath ? No man ever pretended it : Nay , so far is it from that , that the natural Authority of a Father may be , and often is , limited and restrained by the Laws of the Civil Magistrate . And why then may not a Magistrate exercise the same power over his Subjects in matters of Religion , which every Master challengeth to himself in his own Family , that is , to establish the true worship of God in such manner and with such circumstances as he thinks best , and to permit none to affront it , or to seduce from it those that are under his care . And to prevent all misunderstandings in this matter , I do not hereby ascribe any thing to the Magistrate that can possibly give him any pretence of right to reject Gods true Religion , or to declare what he pleases to be so , and what Books he pleases to be Canonical and the Word of God ; and consequently to make a false Religion so currant by the stamp of his Authority , as to oblige his Subjects to the profession of it : Because he who acknowledgeth himself to derive all his Authority from God , can pretend to none against Him. But if a false Religion be established by Law , the case here is the same as in all other Laws that are sinful in the matter of them , but yet made by a lawful Authority ; in this case the Subject is not bound to profess a false Religion , but patiently to suffer for the constant profession of the true . And to speak freely in this matter , I cannot think ( till I be better inform'd , which I am always ready to be ) that any pretence of Conscience warrants any man , that is not extraordinarily commission'd as the Apostles and first Publishers of the Gospel were , and cannot justifie that Commission by Miracles as they did , to affront the establish'd Religion of a Nation ( though it be false ) and openly to draw men off from the profession of it in contempt of the Magistrate and the Law : All that persons of a different Religion can in such a case reasonably pretend to , is to enjoy the private liberty and exercise of their own Conscience and Religion ; for which they ought to be very thankful , and to forbear the open making of Proselytes to their own Religion , ( though they be never so sure that they are in the right ) till they have either an extraordinary Commission from God to that purpose , or the Providence of God make way for it by the permission of the Magistrate . And that they are guilty however of gross Hypocrisie who pretend a further obligation of Conscience in this matter , I shall give this plain Demonstration , which relies upon Concessions generally made on all hands , and by all Parties . No Protestant ( that I know of ) holds himself obliged to go and Preach up his Religion and make Converts in Spain or Italy : Nor do either the Protestant Ministers or Popish Priests think themselves bound in conscience to Preach the Gospel in Turky , to convert the Mahometans . And what is the Reason ? because of the severity of the Inquisition in Popish Countreys , and of the Laws in Turky . But doth the danger then alter the obligation of Conscience ? No certainly ; but it makes men throw off the false pretence and disguise of it : But where there is a real obligation of Conscience , danger should not deter men from their Duty , as it did not the Apostles : which shews their case to be different from ours , and that probably this matter was stated right at first . So that whatever is pretended , this is certain , that the Priests and Jesuits of the Church of Rome have in truth no more obligation of conscience to make Converts here in England than in Sueden or Turky ; where it seems the evident danger of the attempt hath for these many years given them a perfect discharge from their duty in this particular . I shall joyn the Third and Fourth Observations together . That though the true Religion may have several prejudices and objections against it , yet upon examination there will be found those real advantages on its side , that it may safely be referred to any considerate mans choice : If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve . If it seem evil unto you , Intimating that to some persons and upon some accounts it may appear so . But when the matter is truly represented , the choice is not difficult , nor requires any long deliberation , Chuse you this day whom you will serve . Let but the Cause be fully and impartially heard , and a wise man may determine himself upon the spot , and give his Verdict without ever going from the Bar. The true Religion hath always layen under some prejudices with partial and inconsiderate men ; which commonly spring from one of these two Causes , either the Prepossessions of a contrary Religion , or the contrariety of the true Religion to the vicious inclinations and practises of men , which usually lyes at the bottom of all prejudice against Religion . Religion is an enemy to mens beloved lusts , and therefore they are enemies to Religion . I begin with the first , which is as much as I shall be able to compass at this time . I. The Prepossessions of a false Religion ; which commonly pretends two advantages on its side , Antiquity and Universality ; and is wont to object to the true Religion Novelty and Singularity . And both these are intimated both before and after the Text : ●ut away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood , and in Egypt : And chuse you this day whom you will serve , whether the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood , or the gods of the Amorites in whose land ye dwell . Idolatry was the Religion of their Fathers , and had spread it self over the greatest and most ancient Nations of the world , and the most famous for Learning and Arts , the Chaldeans and Egyptians ; and was the Religion of the Amorites and the Nations round about them . So that Joshua represents the Heathen Religion with all its strength and advantage , and do's not dissemble its confident pretence to Antiquity and Universality , whereby they would also insinuate the Novelty and Singularity of the worship of the God of Israel . And it is very well worthy our observation , that one or both of these have always been the Exceptions of false Religions ( especially of Idolatry and Superstition ) against the true Religion . The ancient Idolaters of the World pretended their Religion to be ancient and universal , that their Fathers served these gods , and that the worship of the God of Israel was a plain Innovation upon the ancient and Catholick Religion of the world , and that the very first rise and original of it was within the memory of their Fathers ; and no doubt they were almost perpetually upon the Jews with that pert Question , Where was your Religion before Abraham ? and telling them , that it was the Religion of a very small part and corner of the world , confined within a little Territory : But the great Nations of the world , the Egyptians and Chaldeans , famous for all kind of knowledg and wisdom , and indeed all the Nations round about them , worshipped other gods : And therefore it was an intolerable arrogance and singularity in them , to condemn their Fathers and all the world , to be of a Religion different from all other Nations , and hereby to separate themselves and make a Schisme from the rest of mankind . And when the Gospel appeared in the world , which the Apostle to the Hebrews ( to prevent the scandal of that word ) calls the time of Reformation ; the Jews and Heathen still renewed the same Objections against Christianity . The Jews urged against it , not the ancient Scriptures and the true word of God , but that which they pretended to be of much greater Authority , the unwritten Word , the ancient and constant Traditions of their Church ; and branded this new Religion with the name of Heresie , After the way ( saith St. Paul ) that you call Heresy , so worship I the God of my Fathers ; believing all things that are written in the Law , and in the Prophets . By which we see , that they of the Church of Rome were not the first who called it Heresy to reject human Traditions , and to make the Scripture the Rule of Faith : This was done long before by their reverend Predecessors , the Scribes and Pharisees . And the Gentiles , they pretended against it both Antiquity and Universality , the constant belief and practice of all Ages , and almost all Places of the World ; Sequimur majores nostros qui feliciter secuti sunt suos , says Symmachus : We follow our Fore-fathers , who happily followed theirs : But you bring in a new Religion never known nor heard of in the World before . And when the Christian Religion was most miserably depraved and corrupted , in that dismal night of Ignorance which overspred these Western parts of the World about the Ninth and Tenth Centuries ; and many pernicious Doctrines and superstitious Practices were introduced , to the woful defacing of the Christian Religion , and making it quite another thing from what our Saviour had left it ; and these Corruptions and Abuses had continued for several Ages : No sooner was a Reformation attempted , but the Church of Rome make the same outcry of Novelty and Singularity : And though we have substantially answered it a thousand times , yet we cannot obtain of them to forbear that thread-bare Question , Where was your Religion before Luther ? I shall therefore apply my self to answer these two Exceptions with all the brevity and clearness I can : And I doubt not to make it appear , that as to the point of Universality ( though that be no wise necessary to justify the truth of any Religion ) ours is not inferior to theirs ; if we take in the Christians of all Ages , and of all Parts of the World : And as to the point of Antiquity , that our Faith and the Doctrines of our Religion have clearly the advantage of theirs ; all our Faith being unquestionable ancient , their 's not so . 1. As to the Point of Universality ; which they of the Church of Rome , I know not for what reason , will needs make an inseparable property and mark of the true Church . And they never flout at the Protestant Religion with so good a grace among the ignorant People , as when they are bragging of their Numbers , and despising poor Protestancy because embraced by so few . This pestilent Northern Heresy ( as of late they scornfully call it ) entertained it seems only in this cold and cloudy Corner of the World , by a company of dull stupid People , that can neither penetrate into the Proofs nor the Possibility of Transubstantiation ; whereas to the more refined Southern Wits all these difficult and obscure Points are as clear as their Sun at Noon-day . But to speak to the thing it self . If Number be necessary to prove the truth and goodness of any Religion , ours upon enquiry will be found not so inconsiderable as our Adversaries would make it . Those of the Reformed Religion , according to the most exact calculations that have been made by learned men , being esteemed not much unequal in number to those of the Romish persuasion . But then if we take in the ancient Christian Church , whose Faith was the same with ours ; and other Christian Churches at this day , which all together are vastly greater and more numerous than the Roman Church , and which agree with us , several of them in very considerable Doctrines and Practices in dispute between us and the Church of Rome , and all of them agree in disclaiming that fundamental point and main hinge of the Roman Religion ( as Bellarmine calls it ) I mean the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome over all Christians and Churches in the World ; then the Number on our side will be much greater than on theirs . But we will not stand upon this advantage with them . Suppose we were by much the fewer . So hath the true Church of God often been , without any the least prejudice to the truth of their Religion . What think we of the Church in Abraham's time , which for ought we know was confined to one Family , and one small Kingdom , that of Melchisedec King of Salem ? What think we of it in Moses his time , when it was confined to one People wandering in a Wilderness ? What of it in Elijah's time , when besides the two Tribes that worshipped at Jerusalem there were in the other ten but seven thousand that had not bowed their knee to Baal ? What in our Saviour's time , when the whole Christian Church consisted of twelve Apostles , and seventy Disciples , and some few Followers beside ? How would Bellarmine have despised this little Flock , because it wanted one or two of his goodliest marks of the true Church , Universality and Splendor ? And what think we of the Christian Church in the height of Arrianism and Pelagianism , when a great part of Christendom was over-run with these Errors , and the number of the Orthodox was inconsiderable in comparison of the Hereticks ? But what need I to urge these Instances ? As if the Truth of a Religion were to be estimated and carried by the Major Vote ; which as it can be an Argument to none but Fools , so I dare say no honest and wise man ever made use of it for a solid proof of the truth and goodness of any Church or Religion . If multitudes be an Argument that men are in the right , in vain then hath the Scripture said , Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil : For if this Argument be of any force , the greater Number never go wrong . 2. As to the Point of Antiquity . This is not always a certain Mark of the true Religion . For surely there was a time when Christianity began , and was a new Profession ; and then both Judaism and Paganism had certainly the advantage of it in point of Antiquity . But the proper Question in this Case is , Which is the true Ancient Christian Faith , that of the Church of Rome , or Ours ? And to make this matter plain it is to be considered , that a great part of the Roman Faith is the same with Ours ; as , namely , the Articles of the Apostles Creed , as explained by the first four General Councils . And these make up our whole Faith , so far as concerns matters of meer and simple Belief , that are of absolute necessity to Salvation . And in this Faith of Ours there is nothing wanting that can be shewn in any ancient Creed of the Christian Church . And thus far Our Faith and theirs of the Roman Church are undoubtedly of equal Antiquity , that is , as ancient as Christianity it self . All the Question is , as to the matters in difference between us . The principal whereof are the twelve Articles of the Creed of Pope Pius the IV , concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass , Transubstantiation , the Communion in one kind only , Purgatory , &c. not one of which is to be found in any ancient Creed or Confession of Faith generally allowed in the Christian Church . The Antiquity of these we deny , and affirm them to be Innovations ; and have particularly proved them to be so , not only to the answering , but almost to the silencing of our Adversaries . And as for the negative Articles of the Protestant Religion , in opposition to the Errors and Corruptions of the Romish Faith , these are by accident become a part of our Faith and Religion , occasioned by their Errors ; as the renouncing of the Doctrines of Arrianism became part of the Catholick Religion , after the rise of that Heresy . So that the Case is plainly this ; We believe and teach all that is contained in the Creeds of the ancient Christian Church , and was by them esteemed necessary to Salvation : and this is Our Religion . But now the Church of Rome hath innovated in the Christian Religion , and made several Additions to it , and greatly corrupted it both in the Doctrines and Practices of it : And these Additions and Corruptions are their Religion , as it is distinct from ours ; and both because they are Corruptions and Novelties we have rejected them ; and our Rejection of these is our Reformation . And our Reformation we grant ( if this will do them any good ) not to be so ancient as their Corruptions : All Reformation necessarily supposing Corruptions and Errors to have been before it . And now we are at a little better leisure to answer that captious Question of theirs , Where was your Religion before Luther ? Where-ever Christianity was ; in some places more pure , in others more corrupted ; but especially in these Western parts of Christendom overgrown for several Ages with manifold Errors and Corruptions , which the Reformation hath happily cut off , and cast away . So that though our Reformation was as late as Luther , our Religion is as ancient as Christianity it self . For when the Additions which the Church of Rome hath made to the ancient Christian Faith , and their Innovations in Practice are pared off , that which remains of their Religion is ours ; and this they cannot deny to be every tittle of it the ancient Christianity . And what other Answer than this could the Jews have given to the like Question , if it had been put to them by the ancient Idolaters of the World , Where was your Religion before Abraham ? but the very same in substance which we now give to the Church of Rome ? That for many Ages the Worship of the one true God had bin corrupted , and the Worship of Idols had prevailed in a great part of the World ; that Abraham was raised up by God to reform Religion , and to reduce the Worship of God to its first Institution ; in the doing whereof he necessarily separated Himself and his Family from the Communion of those Idolaters . So that though the Reformation which Abraham began was new , yet his Religion was truly ancient , as old as that of Noah , and Enoch , and Adam . Which is the same in substance that we say , and with the same and equal reason . And if they will still complain of the Newness of our Reformation , so do we too , and are heartily sorry it began no sooner ; but however better late than never . Besides , it ought to be considered , that this Objection of Novelty lies against all Reformation whatsoever , though never so necessary , and though things be never so much amiss : And it is in effect to say , That if things be once bad , they must never be better , but must always remain as they are ; for they cannot be better without being reformed , and a Reformation must begin sometime , and when ever it begins it is certainly new . So that if a real Reformation be made , the thing justifies it self ; and no Objection of Novelty ought to take place against that which upon all accounts was so fit and necessary to be done . And if they of the Church of Rome would speak but their minds out in this matter , they are not so much displeased at the Reformation which we have made because it is new , as because it is a Reformation . It was the humour of Babylon of old ( as the Propbet tells us ) that she would not be healed ; and this is still the temper of the Church of Rome , they hate to be reformed , and rather than acknowledge themselves to have been once in an Error , they will continue in it for ever . And this is that which at first made , and still continues the breach and Separation between us ; of which we are no wise guilty who have only reform'd what was amiss , but they who obstinately persist in their errors , and will needs impose them upon us , and not let us be of their Communion unless we will say they are no Errors . II. The other Prejudice against the true Religion is , the contrariety of it to the vicious inclinations and practices of Men. It is too heavy a yoke , and lays too great a restraint upon humane Nature . And this is that which in truth lies at the bottom of all Objections against Religion , Men love darkness rather than light , because their deeds are evil . But this Argument will require a Discourse by it self , and therefore I shall not now enter upon it ; only crave your patience a little longer whilst I make some Reflections upon what hath been already delivered . You see what are the Exceptions which Idolatry and Superstition have always made , and do at this day still make , against the true Religion ; and how slight and insignificant they are . But do we then charge the Church of Rome with Idolatry ? Our Church most certainly does so , and hath always done it from the beginning of the Reformation ; in her Homilies , and Liturgy , and Canons , and in the Writings of her best and ablest Champions . And though I have , as impartially as I could , consider'd what hath been said on both sides in this Controversy ; yet I must confess I could never yet see any tolerable defence made by them against this heavy charge . And they themselves acknowledg themselves to be greatly under the suspicion of it , by saying ( as Cardinal Perron and others do ) that the Primitive Christians for some Ages did neither worship Images , nor pray to Saints , for fear of being thought to approach too near the Heathen Idolatry : And which is yet more , divers of their most learned men do confess , that if Transubstantiation be not true , they are as gross Idolaters as any in the World. And I hope they do not expect it from us , that in complement to them , and to acquit them from the charge of Idolatry , we should presently deny our senses , and believe Transubstantiation ; and if we do not believe this , they grant we have Reason to charge them with Idolatry . But we own them to be a true Church ; which they cannot be , if they be guilty of Idolatry : This they often urge us withal , and there seems at first sight to be something in it : And for that reason I shall endeavour to give so clear and satisfactory an answer to it , as that we may never more be troubled with it . The truth is , we would fain hope , because they still retain the Essentials of Christianity , and profess to believe all the Articles of the Christian Faith , that notwithstanding their Corruptions they may still retain the true Essence of a Church : as a man may be truly and really a man , though he have the plague upon him ; and for that reason be fit to be avoided by all that wish well to themselves : But if this will not do , we cannot help it . Therefore to push the matter home , Are they sure that this is a firm and good consequence , That if they be Idolaters , they cannot be a true Church ? Then let them look to it . It is they , I take it , that are concerned to prove themselves a true Church , and not we to prove it for them . And if they will not understand it of themselves , it is fit they should be told that there is a great difference between Concessions of Charity and of Necessity , and that a very different use ought to be made of them . We are willing to think the best of them ; but if they dislike our Charity in this point , nothing against the hair : If they will forgive us this Injury , we will not offend them any more : But rather than have any further difference with them about this matter , we will for quietness sake compound it thus ; That till they can clearly acquit themselves from being Idolaters , they shall never more against their wills be esteemed a true Church . And now to draw to a Conclusion . If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord , and to worship him only ; to pray to him alone , and that only in the name and mediation of Jesus Christ , as he hath given us Commandment ; because there is but one God , and one Mediator between God and Man , the Man Christ Jesus . If it seem evil unto you , to have the liberty to serve God in a Language you can understand ; and to have the free use of the Holy Scriptures , which are able to make men wise unto Salvation ; and to have the Sacraments of our Religion entirely administred to us , as our Lord did institute and appoint . And on the other hand , if it seem good to us , to put our necks once more under that yoke , which our Fathers were not able to bear : If it be really a Preferment to a Prince to hold the Pope's Stirrup , and a Privilege to be deposed by him at his pleasure , and a courtesy to be kill'd at his command : If to pray without Understanding , and to obey without Reason , and to believe against sense ; if Ignorance , and implicit Faith , and an Inquisition be in good earnest such charming and desirable things : Then welcome Popery ; which , wherever thou comest , dost infallibly bring all these wonderful Privileges and Blessings along with thee . But the Question is not now about the choice , but the change of our Religion , after we have been so long settled in the quiet possession and enjoyment of it . Men are very loth to change even a false Religion . Hath a Nation changed their Gods , which yet are no Gods ? And surely there is much more reason why we should be tenacious of the Truth , and hold fast that which is good . We have the best Religion in the World , the very same which the Son of God revealed , which the Apostles planted , and confirmed by Miracles , and which the noble Army of Martyrs sealed with their Blood : And we have retrench'd from it all false Doctrines and superstitious Practices which have been added since . And I think we may without immodesty say , That upon the plain square of Scripture and Reason , of the Tradition and Practice of the first and best Ages of the Christian Church , we have fully justified Our Religion , and made it evident to the World that our Adversaries are put to very hard shifts , and upon a perpetual disadvantage in the defence of Theirs . I wish it were as easy for us to justify our Lives as our Religion . I do not mean in comparison of our Adversaries ( for that , as bad as we are , I hope we are yet able to do ) but in comparison of the Rules of our holy Religion , from which we are infinitely swerv'd ; which I would to God we all seriously consider and lay to heart : I say , in comparison of the Rules of our Holy Religion , which teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and to live soberly , and righteously , and godly in this present World , in expectation of the blessed hope , and the glorious appearance of the great God , and our Saviour Jesus Christ ; To whom with the Father , and the Holy Ghost , &c. FINIS . ADVERTISEMENT . THere is newly published a Learned Treatise of the Pope's Supremacy : To which is added , A Discourse concerning the Unity of the Church . In quarto . By Isaac Barrow , D. D. late Master of Trinity-College in Cambridg , and one of his Majesty's Chaplains in Ordinary . Printed for Brabazon Aylmer , at the three Pigeons over against the Royal-Exchange in Cornhil . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A62578-e230 I. II. III. & IV. Jer. 51. 9. 
A62765	----	To the Kings most excellent majesty the humble petition and address of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and commons of the city of London. 1680 Approx. 3 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A62765 Wing T1520 ESTC R2503 12129647 ocm 12129647 54704 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A62765) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 54704) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 900:15) To the Kings most excellent majesty the humble petition and address of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and commons of the city of London. Charles II, King of England, 1630-1685. 1 sheet ([1] p.) Printed for Francis Smith ..., London : 1680. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Broadside. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng City of London (England). -- Court of Common Council. Protestantism. Broadsides 2008-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-02 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2008-08 SPi Global Rekeyed and resubmitted 2008-09 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2008-09 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion To the Kings Most Excellent Majesty . The Humble Petition and Address of the Lord Mayor , Aldermen , and Commons of the City of LONDON . WE Your Majesties most Dutiful and Loyal Subjects being deeply sensible , and apprehensive of the great Danger Your Royal Person , the Protestant Religion , and the good Constitution of this Kingdom , have been , and [ as we have reason to fear , ] are still in , do with all Humble Thankfulness acknowledge your Majesties great Grace and Goodness in causing the Parliament to meet , and sit , to the great Satisfaction of this City , and of all your good Subjects at home , and the Comfort & Encouragemnt of all your Protestant Neighbours abroad , and for your most Gracious Speech at the opening thereof , in those assurances You were pleased to renew for the security of the Protestant Religion , and in Recommending to their Care the suppression of Popery , and the prosecution of the Horrid Popish PLOT , with a strict and Impartial Inquiry , without which , neither Your Royal Person , nor Your good Subjects can be in any safety . And We being also sensible how much the Happy Conclusion of this Session of PARLIAMENT will conduce to those Ends , do most Humbly Beseech Your Majesty , that You would be Graciously Pleased to hearken and Incline to the Humble Advice of That Your great Councel , for the Safety of Your Royal Person , the Preservation of the PROTESTANT RELIGION , the Quieting and Uniting the Minds of all Your Good Subjects , and for securing the PEACE of this your Great CITY , and the whole KINGDOM . And We do in Most Dutiful manner , and with Unanimous Consent , Humbly assure your Majesty , that in Pursuit of Those Councels , Your Great City of LONDON will be ready at all times to promote your Majesties Ease and Prosperity , and stand by your Majesty against all Dangers and Hazards whatsoever . And as in Duty bound shall always Pray for Your Majesties Long Life , and Happy Reign , &c. Novembr the 12th . 1680. IT was now agreed and Ordered by this Court ( nemine contradicente , ) That the Humble Petition and Address to His Majesty from this Court now drawn ●p , and here read , be Presented to His Majesty as soon as conveniently may be ; and the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor , attended with Mr. Sheriffs , is Desired from this Court , to Present the same to His Majesty accordingly . LONDON , Printed for Francis Smith at the Sign of the Elephant and Castle in Cornhil near the Royal Exchange . MDCLXXX . 
A66221	----	The speech of the Prince of Orange, to some principle gentlemen of Somersetshire and Dorsetshire on their coming to joyn His Highness at Exeter the 15th of Nov., 1688. William III, King of England, 1650-1702. 1688 Approx. 3 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A66221 Wing W2480 ESTC R99 12623891 ocm 12623891 64607 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A66221) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64607) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 969:25) The speech of the Prince of Orange, to some principle gentlemen of Somersetshire and Dorsetshire on their coming to joyn His Highness at Exeter the 15th of Nov., 1688. William III, King of England, 1650-1702. 1 sheet ([1] p.9 Printed by J.B., Extern : 1688. Reproduction of original in Bristol Public Library, Bristol, England. Broadside. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Political aspects. Church and state -- England -- Early works to 1800. Broadsides 2008-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-06 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-07 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2008-07 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE SPEECH OF THE Prince of Orange , TO SOME Principle Gentlemen of Somersetshire and Dorsetshire , on their coming to Joyn his Highness at Exeter the 15th of Nov. 1688. THo' we know not all your Persons , yet we have a Catalogue of your Names , and remember the Character of your Worth and Interest in your Country . You see we are come according to your Invitation and our Promise . Our Duty to God obliges us to Protect the Protestant Religion , and our Love to Mankind , your Liberties and Properties . We expected you that dwelt so near the place of our Landing , would have join'd us sooner , not that it is now too late , nor that we want you Military Assistance so much as your Countenance , and Presence , to Justifie our Declar'd Pretentions ; rather than accomplish our good and gracious Designs . Tho' we have brought both a good Fleet , and a good Army , to render these Kingdoms happy , by Rescuing all Protestants from Popery , Slavery , and Arbitrary Power ; by Restoring them to their Rights and Properties Established by Law , and by Promoting of Peace and Trade , which is the Soul of Government , and the very Life-Blood of a Nation ; yet we rely more on the Goodness of God and the Justice of our Cause , than on any Humane Force and Power whatever . Yet since God is pleased we shall make use of Humane means , and not expect Miracles , for our preservation and Happiness : Let us not neglect making use of this Gracious Opportunity , but with Prudence and Courage , put in Execution our so honourable purposes . Therefore Gentlemen , Friends and Fellow-Protestants , we bid you and all your Followers most heartily Wellcome to our Court and Camp. Let the whole World now Judge , if out pretentions are not Just , Generous , Sincere , and above Price ; since we might have , even a Bridge of Gold , to Return back ; But it is our Principle and Resolution rather to dye in a Good Cause , than live in a Bad one , well knowing that Vertue and True Honour is its own Reward , and the Happiness of Mankind our Great and Only Design . FINIS . EXETER , Printed by J. B. 1688. 
A26620	----	Scolding no scholarship in the abyss, or, Groundless grounds of the Protestant religion as holden out by M. Menzeis in his brawlings against M. Dempster. Abercromby, David, d. 1701 or 2. 1669 Approx. 312 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 107 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26620 Wing A87 ESTC R23824 07915194 ocm 07915194 40378 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A26620) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 40378) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1194:2) Scolding no scholarship in the abyss, or, Groundless grounds of the Protestant religion as holden out by M. Menzeis in his brawlings against M. Dempster. Abercromby, David, d. 1701 or 2. Menzeis, John, 1624-1684. Papismus lucifugus. 298 [i.e. 208] p. Printed for the author, [Douai?] : 1669. Attributed to Alexander Con but more likely by David Abercromby. Cf British museum catalogue. A reply to: Papismus lucifugus / John Menzies. Reproduction of original in the Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. Anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. Users should be aware of the process of creating the TCP texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. Text selection was based on the New Cambridge Bibliography of English Literature (NCBEL). If an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in NCBEL, then their works are eligible for inclusion. Selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. In general, first editions of a works in English were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably Latin and Welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. Image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism. 2006-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-08 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-09 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2006-09 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion SCOLDING NO SCHOLARSHIP : IN THE ABYSS OR , GROUNDLES GROUNDS OF The Protestant Religion , as holden out by M. Menzeis in his Brawlings against M. Dempster . We have heard of the Pride of Moab ( he is very proud ) even of his haughtiness , and his Pride and his wrath ; but his lyes shall not be so , Isaiah 16. V. 6. According to Protestants Translation . The house of God , which is the Church of the living God , the Pillar and Ground of Truth , 1 Tim. 3.15 . Printed for the Author , 1669. Sr. William Baird of Newbaith Bart. AN Advertisement . HAving but a very few things whereof to Advertise the Reader , I address no Epistle to him ; Yet one thing I must friendly tell him , being to ask a Courtesie or two at his hands . 1. Then he shall know this short Reply to Mr. Menzeis greater Book , was offered to the Press at Aberdene within a moneth after it first appeared ; but the Stationer being inhibited by Publick Authority ( and that as is thought at M. Menzeis desire ) I was forced first to make it to be transcribed , and then fitted for abroad , where it is not easie to us , to have any thing well Printed or returned in hast . 2. I must beg upon this account , the Errata and faults in Orthography may be excused , I not being present to correct them . 3. I desire none would think tedious or superfluous in some Sections , very many Quotations , yea some even here and there repeated ; for that in questions of fact , things cannot be otherwise proved ; and to remit the Reader either to the first Authours of them , or the places wherein they were cited before , or in other Controversie Books , were to divert his thoughts and attention , and put him to such pains as few will take . 4. I pray that he do not mistake me in refuting M. Menzeis Grounds , for I onely take to prove , that the Scripture and Doctrine of the Primitive Church can be no ground to Protestants , denying an Infallible Visible Judge , for both these as infallibly propounded by the true Church , I most cordially imbrace , and wish all may do with me . AN Answer to a Letter sent from Aberdene , with Mr. John Menzeis his Reply to Mr. Dempster , for Reclaiming a Country Gentleman from Popery . SIR , YOur Letter shewing equally such zeal for the Protestant Cause , and affection to me , hath made me read the Book inclosed , with such a Character of the Writer , as carefully , as if it contained Responses , and as impartially as if I were a Seeker . The Question here moved , I ingenuously grant , is the main Point ( if solidly answered ) could best reclaim me , and most of my Profession , who amid'st so many Storms raised against us , have no small motive to comply , if we could look at present to our little Temporal Interest , without making a greater and Eternal loss , whereof there could be no hazard , if Protestants ( as is here debated ) could shew any assured and infallible ground for what they profess . This , Sir , is all Mr. Dempster through all his ten Papers requires , and we with him ; he propounds and states the Question most clearly and smoothly , though in homely terms , by reason of his long absence from home ; he makes no Digression from the main Point , what ever be replyed beside : ( yet engageth after this Point once decided , to answer what ever is here retorted , instanced , or urged against him ) he answers humbly and mildly , however provok'd with most bitter and lofty words ; Like another Fabius or old Warriour , he keeps his Post , neglecting all the Flowrishes and Skirmishes of his insulting Adversary , who having engaged under his hand , to defend the Protestant Religion ( the onely occasion of this Dispute ) strives still nevertheless ( f●de & arte punicâ ) that is most deceitfully , to impugne the Catholick Roman Faith with a like success to that of Hannibal , who let Carthage be demolished and redacted to ashes , whil'st he insisted in vain to Sack and Ruine Rome . And this is proper to him with most Hereticks ; all Heresy tending rather to destruction then edification , Atheisme rather then Religion , and to question what hath been since Christ and his Apostles constantly believed in the Church of God , rather then to settle their own new wavering and inconstant Faith , upon any solid Principle or Ground . Yet Mr. Menzeis most confidently thinking he had got as an unbloody , so an undoubted victory ( hearing his Adversary was dead ) Petitions the Senate of Aberdene as for a Triumph , that his Papers may be put in Print : His Learning , Loyalty , and Religion most justly deserving it , for as he is of a daring and stirring spirit , so in all things Martially minded , his Learning being most in Polemics , his Loyalty much in debate , and his Religion ever in controversy ; nevertheless as Umpire in all , he deserveth well a Crown , as his late late Victory by the Pen a Chariot of Paper . This his Triumphal Chariot is not drawn , but carried in the Air , with high and violent blasts ; most suitable to his fierceness in fighting with a scolding and railing Tongue , which makes his Adversaries deepest wounds . Before it , go indeed some worthy Persons , at least in black upon white , and in the Paper , follow immediately the flying Colours , wherein his late Arms sent from Edenbrough , ( viz. The Bible reversed ) do shine , with this new Motto , I take from the present Subject The Grounds of the Protestant Religion . The acclamations of the People are not wanting in the mouthes of some sighing Sisters . He is Herauld himself , sounding constantly his own praises aloud ; nothing is brought into the Treasury , as in Triumphs had wont in old , but some hundred Marks for the charges of the Triumph ( that is , the Printing of the Papers ) exported . One thing onely is wanting , practised in such glorious showes , one Admonitor sitting with the Triumpher , to keep him in mind of humane weakness , least too great honour should so puff him up , as to think himself above the condition of men . And this defect , Sir , I intend to supply , in perusing his Book , advertising him now and then of some weakness , both in Conduct , Courage and Strength , as his Answers to the Question propounded shall deserve . And first , if I should answer his most invective Babling , Scoldings , and Railings , with all the Venom he spits out to Ciment the Grounds of his Religion , I could easily pay him home , even with the general Applause and Acclamations of most Protestants , amongst whom the more Moderate , and most constant Professors scarce own him , his Religion , or Grounds ; as best knowing his Arragant , Proud , Contentious Spirit , his unbridled Tongue , his scandalous Carriage in so many Encounters , his wavering Belief , unsetled Faith ; and how oft he hath been Episcopal , Presbyterian , Independent : His Pulpit jars with his Collegue in the time of the Covenant , his base complyance with the Usurper in the time of Rebellion , his variance with his Bishop at the time , the Government of the Church was re-establisht ; how many living Witnesses have heard him Preach and foment Schism , and Divisions in the Church , Sedition in the State , and even treacherous and Treasonable Sermons against his Prince and King. I instance only that base and perfidious bewraying of Gods Word , belying of the known truth ; and betraying of his Countrey and King , in that most unchristian Sermon , upon these words , How long wilt thou mourn for Saul , whom I have rejected ? Applying them to our most Gracious Soveraign ; which I should have been ashamed to relate , if this notorious Impostor , and most absurd abuser of Gods Word , had not first in the Preface of a Sermon in Print , and now again so often in this his Book most deceitfully and maliciously cryed out , Papists could be no good Subjects , as if their Tenets did tend to Rebellion ; whil'st all Loyal Protestants in the three Kingdoms , both love and respect our Loyalty , how ever they hate our Profession ; and look upon him , with all his Covenanting Fry , as a most fiery Incendiary of Rebellion . Now Sir , if such a man ( whom you most cry up for his Eloquence , as , if like another Samson , his strength consisted in his hair ) be a Person fitted to give the Grounds of Religion , defend the Protestant Faith , or convert any one to his Belief , for that with a Pharisaical countenance , a Puritanical tone , and a strong voice , colouring some slight Learning and reading of Pamphlets , with plagiary Phrases and Passages , to stuff up a Book in Print , and turn the Glass twice in his Sermons , let any be judge . As that Philosopher of old , hearing himself praised by the rabble , who commonly approve nothing but such stuff as is in themselves , did presently make an examen of his actions : I hope Protestants seeing their Religion Defended by such a Writer , will more diligently enquire of its weakness , which they can never better see , then in his Papers , where having undertaken to give the Grounds of the Protestant Religion ( the only Subject of this Dispute , either by Word or Writ ) in them all has not ( as his Adversary well re-marks ) so much as ten lines to settle , clear , or defend them in the least ; but scraping together objections against Catholicks ( so often answered by them ) borrows some passages to no purpose at present , and heaps up undervaluing words , with such injurious scoldings , railings , and imprecations against an Old , Grave , Learned , and Modest Man , that after he hath called him an impudent Liar , a Knave , Rogue , Sycophant , Fool , a dull and Lethargick-head , a Neat-herd in Ignorance , a Devil in Malice , and what not ? He imprecates in fine ( out of his corrupt Bible , changing the word Imperet , with im●re●et ) the same curse Saint Michael did in their conflict to the Devil , such is the Pride , Passion , and poison of his heart , so contrary to the Spirit of God. After this , what may we expect of such a person , if we hear the Wise mans saying , In malevolam animam non introibit sapientia : True Wisdom never enters into a wicked and malicious soul ; yet Sir , to satisfie your loving and friendly desire , I intend to examine more at length , what Wit and Learning he shews , and first in his two long Epistles Dedicatory , and to the Reader , which could receive no Answer , from Mr. Dempster , as appearing but a twelvemonth after his death : After this , God willing , I wil positively refute ( which he so urges may be done ) First , his great Principle of No Infallible visible Judge of Controversie , and then both his Ruinous Grounds . SECT . I. Some brief Reflections on the Title of Mr. Menzei's Book , and his two long Epistles Dedicatory , and to the Reader . HIs Title being in Latine Papismus Lucifugus , ( according to that saying , a strong Thief shall have a strange name , ) must needs be explained , and surely understood of that New Gospel Light in the Covenant , for in it Mr. Menzeis was a bright Star of the first Magnitude , or Fiery Comet himself , of which Light , a Prelatick Poet in answer to a Satyre , upon the Consecration of a Bishop , Writes thus , Your Phoebus from the West did rise A light that did put out mens eyes , Welcome Confusion . This Light indeed Popery shuns , as all other New Lights against old received Christian Verities ; but not that either of Scripture or Antiquity , the onely true Light of the Christian World , as flowing from Christ the S●n of Justice , and carried by so many holy Popes , Bishops , and Priests in Communion with them , even unto the most remote corners of the Earth , as the conversion of all Kings and Countries to the Christian Religion do testifie , which Light Mr. Dempster , no where declines , but constantly holds out to make nothing for clearing the Grounds of the Protestant Religion , except it be in shewing them both ruinous and false , so that Mr. Menzeis here , Offendit in Luce & in limine , that is , stumbles both in the light , and in the specious Title of his Book , whereof the very first line is not to the purpose . The Question being only of the Grounds of the Protestant Religion , and not of Popery at all . He begins with a great show of humility , who am I , the meanest of the thousands of Israel ? Answer , Est qui se nequiter humiliat & interiora ejus plena dolo , Eccles . — 19. But let his late Bishop in the Church , Principal in the Colledge , and fellow Brethren in the Ministery bear witness of this , when they have opposed him in the least : Yea , his own Jactancy through all his Papers and Book , with his base revilings in every page , and under-valuing of his Adversary . It is those his humble thoughts of his own abilities makes him so boldly assert there was consultation used in the present Dispute , Surprizal intended , and a choice Champion pitched upon to Encounter with him as a Hector . But the known truth is to all them who had a hand in the undertaking ( as they did witness in his presence at the Meeting ) that they had only yielded to his Importunity in desiring a Meeting , and that they had taken him only who was next at hand for the time , a man most able indeed for a civil Conference , but most unable for a Clamorous Dispute , as being of a very weak Constitution , and of a totally confiscated health . But all this Conference must be set out by him in a disguised Dress ; Mr. Dempster proclaimed an Ignorant , Catholicks charged with Calumnies , the better to Paint out his Victory and Triumph . As in like case another Conference ( as he quotes ) by Dr. Prideaux ; and Dr. Featly of late , whom he might have spared to name , being as good at Calumniating Inventions as either of them , and no doubt but he will be cited hereafter , as they now , who nevertheless most deceitfully relates both the occasion of the Conference , and what passed in it . The clamours of women he speaks of , if any ( for it was a most modest person did speak ) was onely to suppress his clamours heard even at the Cross , and witness to his face , that he had passed from his engagement to them , which was to give and defend the Grounds of the Protestant Religion , as he had engaged under his hand ; and this his missive , was the Paper Mr. Dempster kept open at the Meeting ( which he would have generally supposed to have been the first exchanged Paper with him ) but it is particularly known to us , Mr. Dempster had never then intended to write a line . But Mr. Menzeis cautious , and conscious to himself , that it had been easie to reverse his Grounds , and Involve him in inextricable difficulties ( as shall hereafter appear ) if he had answered directly by word , refuses the performance of his promise , or to speak for the Protestant Religion at all , but will only Impugne some Opinions of Authours in the School , which are neither fit for the Pulpit , ( where he did first challenge them ) nor the capacity of common hearers , and much less that which he chiefly insisted on , any Point of our Faith. The first is , That men are not bound presently to repent when ever they have offended God , under the danger of incurring a new sin ; Whereupon Mr. Menzeis frameth his Argument , as if this were a Dicision of the Catholick Roman Church ; and then sayes he , Mr. Dempster denied the Major , whence he took witness that the Jesuit admitted the Minor , a rare Inference and quick . He passeth under silence the confirmation of the Major denied , because disgraceful to him , who though he did think it a point of Faith , and that so unquestionable , yet could never prove it by Scripture , contenting himself with a weak comparison , which he is ashamed to set down in his Book . But however Doctors vary in prescribing a limited time wherein we should repent , all hold the shortest delay both surest and best , and publick Repentance is generally taught to be necessary for publick transgressions , as publick Recantations for open Calumnies , like to that of Mr. Menzies against his Soveraign , How long wilt thou mourn for Saul , &c. His Penitential Sermon being as yet to make , so well doth he presently repent . Yea , not only his Practice , but Doctrine also ( if truly a Protestant ) is so far from presently repenting , that Teaching mens best actions to be sinful , he must either confess repentance at no time to be commanded , or else blasphemously avouch , God hath commanded us to sin . Is it not a jearing of Gods Commands , and a scoffing of men , to affirm the Commandements to be impossible , and yet urge that even affirmative ones should be hourly , and instanly kept ? Forgetting two Maxims of the School , Nemo tenetur ad impossibile , and Praecepta affirmitativa obligant semper sed non pro semper . In the second Argument , he both argues and and answers to himself , ( Mr. Dempster being silenced by his clamours ) concerning the intention of Priests in administring the Sacraments , which if requisite , he will have it to make all Faith uncertain . But in vain , there being greater assurance of their intention , then that Ministers use aright the Elements , and pronounce the words , or that they teach not false Doctrine , and set not out corrupt Bibles . The assistance of Gods Spirit promised to his Church , and his particular Providence in Governing and Ruling it , assures us nothing necessary either to Faith or Salvation can be wanting in her ; No want of Intention can wrong them who are come to age , they may supply by their own Intentions , Desires , and Acts of the love of God : And for children whom Protestants ▪ will have to be saved by the faith of their Parents , and not by Baptism , Is it not more sure , that publick persons in the Church want not a right Intention , then that private men have true Faith ? The conferring of a Sacrament is not only Actio Hominis I hope , but also Humana , as the Divines speak . What then if a Mad man in a frolick , or a Comedian for a jeer , ( as we read to have been done in derision of Christians ) should pour out water on any one , and pronounce the words ? yea , what if a Priest shewing a new Convert how he is to be Baptized , should do the same ? Were these lawful and valid Baptisms , where nothing save the Intention is wanting . It is easie to cavil at the chief Heads of the Christian Religion , but hard to say any thing solidly against them . After this ; he comes to his Apologies , First , for so much writing on so little purpose ; Answer , he should have said , so little to the purpose , there scarce being ten lines precisely to the purpose in all his Papers and Book . Secondly , That he was not so speedy in Answering as Mr. Dempster , upon his Incombacy's ; and upon deliberating whether he should answer , the emptiness of Mr. Dempsters Scriblings , who antidated his Papers , yet that he might guess with Apelles , at his great hast by his foul work . Answer , his greatest Imcombacy's , as I am informed , are but to dite and declaim Bellarmines Objections , or such like , out of other Controversy Books : And if it be an empty Question to ask the Grounds of his Religion ; Sure it must be an empty Religion , and void of Grounds . Neither did Mr. Dempster Antidate his Papers , but did write back to him as currantly as any man could do a missive Letter , never intending they should see the Press , and finding very little solidity in his Answers . He guesses at his great hast by his foul work , but can shew nothing foul in it , save onely when he resumes his filthy scoldings : but we may easily guess at his little wit by his Foolish Work and Answers no where to the purpose . His third Apology , is for the Acrimony and bitterness of his expressions , which he sayes had their rise from Mr. Dempsters Dunghil Eloquence , Repetitions , Praeteritions , Calumnies . Answer , Mr. Menzies scoldings are the only Eloquence of the Dunghil : most Learned men oftentimes be not very Eloquent in the Vulgar Tongue . As to his Repetitions , he is no good Disputant , who passes from his medium before the Argument be answered . For Preteritions , all wise men pass what is not to the purpose , as most of his papers and Book . And as for Calumnies , I leave to his papers to justifie his modesty , however Mr. Menzies most injuriously Calumniate him . In his Epistle to the Reader , he continues his Apologies for Disputing , Writing , Printing , granting one might have said more in a very few sheets , for the satisfaction of a lover of Truth , then he in all his Papers , and this is most true ; Nay , but he has been constrained to follow the anomalous motions of a tautologizing Jesuit . Answer , These two words set together sound well in a Pulpit , but signifie nothing or little : for how can his motion be anomalous or irregular , who steers still to the same point , constantly propounding the same thing ? Or how can he be said to Tautologize and use idle Repetitions , who insists still in the same question , till he get a full and satisfactory Answer ? as if a man come to require his money from a Debtor , should hear from him many news of the late Wars , and then asking again his money , the Debtor should speak of our new League with many Forraign Princes : But the Creditor still mindful of the main , did reiterate the occasion of his coming , and ask a new , when he could expect his money ? were this a tautologizing , and vain repetition ? And in this sense I grant Mr. Dempster tautologizes , and in no other . But are not rather Mr. Menzies many Instances in this his Epistle against the Catholick Faith , and so many times repeated in his Book , both tautologies and anomalous motions , as altogether false , frivolous , idle , and impertinent to the present Question , concerning the Grounds of the protestant Religion ? wherefore I reflect only on the last , viz. That Popish Principles , as improven by the Jesuited party , are highly injurious to Princes , Ergo , The Protestant Religion hath solid grounds ; for this should be his Inference in all he sayes : And this an arch Covenanter is not ashamed to write , who so treasonably , and publickly did preach against his lawful Soveraign ; but the love and esteem , so many of the Greatest and Wisest Monarches in the Christian World have for Jesuits , sufficiently vindicate them from all the Calumnies of such a disloyal person . After this he sayes , If he know his own genius well , he takes no pleasure in altercations : Answer He is then of a most austere Nature , who so shuns all pleasure ; for it seems Mr. Menzeis lives in altercations , as the Salamander in the fire , all his Preachings and Writings being full of them . He delights so to cavil , that he lets not pass Mr. Dempsters Orthographick trespasses , which should have been at most imputed to his Amanuensis or Scriviner . But , if Mr. Menzeis were as Orthodox as Orthographick , all were well . In his voyage to London to complement the Usurper , he made himself Orthographick in the English Tongue ; but coming down an Independent , he was far from an Orthodox mind , yet thinks to keep up some reputation amongst Protestants , by his Imputations on Jesuits . No hope , sayes he , of prevailing with the Jesuited Faction , whose Design as appears , is to keep up a stated Schism in Christendom , they hinder the conversion of Jews and Infidels . Answer , No Sir , it is only the Hidra of Heresy , and chiefly yours , divided in so many heads , keeps up Schism and Division from the Church , and amongst themselves ; which Monster Jesuits strive to suppress , they , yea , one of them , called Saint Francis Xavier , hath converted more Infidels to the Christian and Catholick Religion in ten years time , then all the Protestants in the World , for a hundred and fifty , if all Records of History be more worthy of credit , then you . The conversion of Jews , Infidels , Hereticks as ever in old times , so constantly now , is a mark of the true Church , to which Hereticks can no wise pretend , whose business is to pervert Catholicks , rather then to convert Infidels , as Saint Hierome well remarks , so that in all prudence , this he should not have mentioned , his younger brethren the Jansenists , ( of whom he borrows most of his Objections against Jesuits ) speak not of this , being no little ashamed , when yearly the notable conversions of so many thousand Infidels , only by Jesuits , and other Priests in Communion with the Sea of Rome , come out , wherein neither they nor he have any hand . Next amongst many controverted points obstructive to the peace and unity of the Catholick Church , he sets down first , the Churches Infallibility , as if the true Church were not infallible , both according to the Scripture and Fathers ( as I shall , God willing , hereafter prove at length ) or as if the Church being infallible , peace and unity could not be had . Secondly , the Popes Universal Supremacy , as obstructing Unity , forgetting what St. Hierome sayes , l. 1. in Jovin . That even amongst the Apostels themselves , one was made head , that the occasion of Schism and Division might be taken away , Ut capite constituto Schismatis tolleretur occasio : Doth the Popes Supremacy in the whole Church hinder peace and unity , more then my Lord Archbishops Primacy in the Kingdom ? Is not this a fling at Bishops in their Diocesses , and the Primate in each Nation , to say their Supremacy over inferiour Pastors , is a let and stop to Peace and Unity in the Church ? So all Covenanting Ministers speak with him , the Unity they aim at being nothing but a Monopoly to set themselves above Pope and Primate , upon the ruines of both Church and State. Are not these strong and witty Objections , put in the Frontispiece of his Book , as in the Van ? The rest I prosecute not , they being the ordinary controverted Tenets betwixt Protestants and us , answered in every Pamplet of Controversie ; but the last is too remarkable to let it pass : Nay , says he , Is it not one of the first Queries wherewith Jesuites do assault our people , how do you know Scripture to be the word of God ? As if they would have people rather turn Atheists , then remain Protestants . A very pretty Reply ; shews not this his Answer , Jesuits and others have great reason to move the Question , to which so great a Divine can not better reply . Protestants call Scripture their ground of Faith , but can evidence by no sufficient Motive of Credibility , ( standing to their principles ) this Book they call Scripture , is the true and Authentick Word of God , should not Mr. Menzeis then have setled , cleared , and vindicated from all Objections and Cavils this his ground ? but that could have diverted him from Impugning the Romish Faith : no it would have done more against it , then all his Calumnies of Idolatry ; being more to the purpose , yea ended , ( to the Protestants great advantage ) all the present debate , but all Mr. Menzeis can answer , is to call the question Atheistical , and a demand proper to Infidels ; as if good Christians might not ask for Instruction , how they may prudently believe , and firmly adhere to the grounds of their Religion and Faith. In fine , he says , Many Romanists have called for Reformation . Answer , true , and do as yet daily call for Reformation in Life and Manners , but not in matters of belief , none of them with Protestants , presuming to correct Gods Word , and reform the Doctrine of his Church , or to censure their Pastors , and all the Ancient Fathers , with Pharisaical , and Puritanical pride . This way of calling for Reformation was proper to protestants at their first rise , for reforming the Catholick Roman Church , and again in the Covenant for the reforming their own ; They like Foxes indeed , ( to use Mr. Menzeis comparison ) did raise such dust ( not to say worse ) with their tails and heads both , that ever since , the very air they breath is infected , and their eyes so blinded , that they cannot open them to see the manifest truth . After all this , fearing his Book may have a reply , he desires all things then be noticed he hath said . Answer , No , this his demand is most unreasonable , that at the time one only question is in debate , and that a main one , concerning the Grounds of the Protestant Religion , any thing else should be taken notice of , till this be put to a closure . On this all the Protestant Religion depends ; let their grounds be proved solid , and we have done ; for by that we look not on his Digressions as Golden Apples , to make us run out of our way in the least ; they being scarce like to the Apples of Sodom ( in his confused Rapsody ) that is pleasant to the eye , though no less rotten in the heart , as who has best right to the Root and Tree , may justly claim the Branches and Fruit ; so whoever proves he hath the true Grounds of Religion , may easily prove all Superstructures on this ground to be true , the accessary followeth the principal ; and this is the chief and principal question amongst us ; let this be once decided in their favour , and we have no more process with them . Secondly , he desires nothing be brought has been answered by Protestants . Answer , if he had given example in this , he had never written a line : However , if any thing has been solidly answered , to what I bring against his great principle , of no Infallible visible Judge of Controversie , or both his grounds , as I most sincerely protest , it never did come to my hands , so let Mr. Menzeis send it me , and here an end . Thirdly , That personal Criminations be laid aside . Answer , then these personal Criminations , when he calls Mr. Dempster a dull and Lethargy-head , a Neat-herd , a man of a Prostitute reputation , a Knave , a Sycophant , a Devil , should have been blotted out of his Book . As Infamous persons are not received for witnesses , so Calumnies can be no wise sooner refuted , then by shewing that he who calumniates has lost all reputation and credit . If it were not softly insinuated , what a quick wit Mr. Menzeis is , who names Mr. Dempster a dull and Lethargy-head : How learned a Pastor , who calls him a Neat-herd ; how famous , who challenges him to be of a prostitute reputation ; how honest , who calls him a Rogue and a Knave ; how sincere and ingenuous , who terms him a Sycophant : and how great a Saint , who compares him to a Devil , his sole authority in Print might perhaps endanger Mr. Dempsters good name , wherefore he must not take ill a little hath been said of this , not for Criminations , but as Answers to Calumnies , and notorious falshoods ; especially his Apology being the greatest of his wrongs , as if Mr. Dempster had extorted them , he was forced to it , because for sooth , he can suffer no man to withstand him , or not to be satisfied with what he brings : This is all the Injury we read in Mr. Dempsters papers , which can be no excuse certainly to him , who easily foreseeing what might be replyed , dare glory with Job , he takes injuries for a Crown , citing as a Heroick word in Luther , Indies magis mihi placeo , superbus fio , quod video nomen pessimum mihi crescere . I please my self more and more daily , yea I become proud , to see that I have got a very ill name , and that it grows upon me ; which if true , his pleasure may be great , and his pride too , for few of his coat after Luther have got a worse name , for changes in Religion , Jars and contentions with his brethren , disobedience to his Bishop , and disloyalty to his Prince . Here presently to set up his good name a little , he playes the Prophet , striving to pry into Mr. Dempsters Intentions and thoughts , why he slighted all the points stated by him , and Instances only that he should prove , there be two Sacraments and no more ; but here the Spirit fails him in all his Divinations , the only reason of this being , for that all other controverted Tenets with Protestants are borrowed from divers old condemned Heresies , and this only proper to them . However , Mr. Dempster should have proved seven Sacraments . Answer , No , not this , or any thing else ( in the present dispute , as not to the purpose ) save only , that Protestants for their Religion could shew no solid ground , this he sticks to , this he insists upon , and this only whilest Mr. Menzeis like a Bird ever upon wing flies from branch to branch , a mark of no great Constancy , and Solidity , either in Wit or Learning . But he will needs bring in the Romish Religion by the head and shoulders upon the Stage , and have Mr. Dempster to decline it be tryed by Scripture , and the Doctrine of the Church in the first three ages . Answer , The Romish Religion has no part in the present Scene , neither is Master Dempster acting any thing directly in defence of it , but Impugning the Protestant grounds , and this Mr. Menzeis in his first answer clearly grants ; his words are : The Thesis — then which we defend , and you impugne is this : The Protestant Religion is the true Religion ; No mention here of the Catholick Roman Faith , and yet Mr. Menzeis in all his papers and Books speaks very little for the Protestant Religion , but always against the Popish , laying aside the Thesis which he sets down himself , as his Text so often in the Pulpit , to rail at random against us . And this with a like Sincerity and Candor , as when he says , Quakerism is but Popery under a disguise . Answer , then most men mistake it , thinking it so far from Popery under what ever disguise , that it is nothing but Puritanism , in puris naturalibus , and undisguised . Is the private Spirit our Ground and Guide ? Do we allow Laicks and Women to preach ? or private persons whatsoever , upon pretence of New Gospel Light to reform the Church ? This Presbyterians and Puritans in the beginning of the Reformation , and again in the Covenant , did with them : Yea on the same very ground , of adhering to the pure Word , and to the Spirit and Light within them , against all Authority in Church and State ; Is not this the Quakers chief Argument against Protestants , when they ask their Power and Call : We are come to Reform you , say they , and all your Hirelings , even as you the Papists and Priests ; We ground our selves on the pure and naked Word ; the Spirit speaketh within us ; we regard not men ; Church , Councels , Fathers have erred . Which Answer , Mr. Menzeis if constant to his own principles , with all his Needle-headed Nicities ( as he speaks ) will hardly refute . In fine , he sayes , Romanists boast his Papers shall have an Answer ; these six Moneths might have done it ; Our Reply will discover we apprehend some danger ; &c. Answer , Few Romanists do think his papers deserve a Reply , yea , nor their pains to read them , as saying little to the purpose ; much less do they esteem the enterprise to answer them so high , as it should be called a boast : He who rather contends with us in solidity of reason , then celerity of dispatch , will neverthleess have this expected answer six Moneths before his Book did appear , at which time he makes the Magistrates command the Stationer under the highest pains , that he should Print no Reply . Yet after his Book has been a twelve moneth under the Press at home , we may have a Book Printed at a start abroad , neither is there such hast in replying for any danger we apprehend , his railings never having wronged Catholicks in the least , but much Protesiants , many whereof have turned Quakers , to hear Tub-preachers professing greater Modesty , Sincerity , yea , and Solidity in belief , then he ; who by his frequent changes in Religion , from Prelaticks to Presbyterians , from Presbyterians to Independants , from Independants to I know not whom again , is more like the Weathercock on the Steeple ( turning at every wind ) then the Member of any one Church . His Exclamations wherewith he concludes his two long Epistles , are both ludibrious and childish , in misapplying so many Scripture Phrases to the Catholick Roman Church , whose Faith is so highly commended by the Apostle St. Paul , and holy Fathers in all Ages ; who ever amongst them did tax her of Errour , flie her Communion , renounce her Faith , decline her Censures , question her Authority , disapprove her Doctrine , or chalenge the Supreme power and Headship of her Bishop ? In the second age St. Irenaeus extols her Authority ; All Churches ( says he , l. 3. c. 3. ) round about ought to resort to the Roman Church , by reason of her more powerful Principality . In the third , St. Cyprian Ep. 55. calls her St. Peters Chair , and the principal Church , to which Infidelity or false Doctrine cannot have access . In the fourth , St. Athanasius has his recourse , both to her Bishop and her , against all his Adversary Hereticks . In the fifth , St. Augustine thinks her Sentence an end of Controversie , Scripsimus Romam , Roma rescriptum est , quaestio finita est , &c. And in following ages do not St. Gregory , St. German , St. John Damascene Venerable Bede , St. Bernard , St. Thomas of Aquine , and generally all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church the same ? So that I answer his places of Scripture , as St. Augustine Petilian's the Donatist Heretick , l. 2. c. 5. He brings the words of the Law , but takes not heed against whom , as the Devil speaks Scripture to Christ , not discerning to whom . Verba legis dicitis sed in quos dicitis , non attenditis , sicut Diabolus verba legis dicebat sed cui diceret non agnoscebat . And with the same St. Augustine , I answer to all Mr. Menzeis pretended victory and triumph over Mr. Dempster . Facile est ut quisque Augustinum vincat , quanto magis ut vicisse videatur , aut si non videatur , vicisse dicatur facile est , St. Aug. Ep. 174. SECT . II. Wherein the Question is stated , as propounded by Mr. Dempster , and Mr. Menzeis great Principle and Grounds set down as cleared by him ; with the Design of the Author thereon . THe sole Argument that I find Mr. Dempster urges in all his papers , in substance runs thus , in this one Syllogism . That Religion cannot be a true Religion , which hath no peculiar principle or ground to prove that it is a true Religion , and conform to the true sense of the word of God. But the Protestant Religion hath no peculiar ground or principle to prove it self the true Religion , &c. Then the Protestant Religion cannot be true . Mr. Menzeis cavils at this Syllogism , as not being in form , both the premises being Negatives , as well as the Conclusion . Mr. Dempster Answers , the second is Affirmative , and only objectively Negative : As if one should say in Latin ( wherein the form of Syllogisms best appears ) Sed omnis Religio Protestantium est talis , ut nullum habeat peculiare fundamentum quo se probet veram , or else , Est habens nullum peculiare fundamentum , &c. which the least Logician in the Colledge presently sees to be an Affirmative Proposition : And yet what Clamours hath not Mr. Menzeis made for this ? as if at the first bout he had disarmed his Adversary : So well this great Professor of Divinity is versed in Logick , that he cannot resolve and answer a proposition , if not set down as to a Bajan : Like to that young man who lately come from the Fencing-School , and hardly put to it , mistaking the thrust , is put off his Guard , and so both wounded and mocked . So the Syllogism standing in good Form , the first Proposition in it suffers no debate . The second is denyed by Protestants , whereupon they are required to produce this peculiar Ground which proves their Religion to be true . Master Menzeis after many Wheelings , Turnings , and Windings in his Scoldings , Digressions , Retorsions , at the end brings two grounds for the Protestant Religion . The first Scripture , and that clear in Fundamentals , or things necessary to Salvation . The second , its agreement in Essentials , with the Faith of the purest and most ancient Primitive Church , in the first three Centuries or Ages . To clear his first Ground ( which in his sixth paper he storms to have called his Achilles or strength , seeing he had given another , which it seems he holds no less strong then it ) he sets down , That all Scriptures are not clear : Secondly , that Protestants do not exclude means of Interpretation . Thirdly , by perspicuity , he understands in Terms , or by firm and clear consequence . Fourthly , that by this perspicuity again , he means an External and objective Evidence which is nothing impeached , by the misunderstanding of Hereticks or others . Fifthly , that by things necessary , is here understood , whither necessary as means , or as commands . What he cites in his eight paper , as Maximes taken out of George Scholarius a Grecian , is but to the same purpose with what he hath formerly said . One onely thing I add , which he urges most in all his Book , that though Protestants do not exclude means of Interpretation in explaining of Scripture , and in deducing consequences from it , yet no necessity there is , that we should know that he who gives the true Interpretation and Sense , have the assistance of the Holy Ghost , because forsooth , this savours rankly ( says he ) of that Erroneous Popish Tenet , concerning the necessity of an infallible visible Judg of Controversie : whereof he proves in his third paper there is none , for that a Jurist without any such Infallible assistance , may be known to explain aright a Municipal Law , and a Mathematician to demonstrate a Proposition of Euclydes . This is the state of the Question , as propounded by Mr. Dempster , and this in substance is Mr. Menzeis Answer to it , their debate is long ; Mr. Dempster constantly putting Mr. Menzeis to it , that he would prove these Grounds to be peculiar to Protestants , and support their Controverted Tenets with us ; but this he still declines to bring any Positive proof for either , desiring his adversary should rather Positively prove the contrary . No says Mr. Dempster , make good your Assertion , as he who affirms should prove ; I will not be so put off of my medium , I have taken against you : Let us see the Grounds you build on in the sence you take them , and without any Infallible visible Judg of Controversie , assuring you either of the uncorrupt Writings , and sincere Doctrine of the Fathers in the first three ages , or of the uncorrupt Letter , and genuine sense of Scripture , first , to be solid and Infallible , and then to agree peculiarly to you , and the business is done . You confidently assert both ; but what Sectary sayes not the same ? their claim to the foresaid Grounds , say ye , is meerly pretended ; rests to see how your own is proved as just . Many Digressions and Retorsions against Popery are made : Many Protestant Writers spoken of who have done this , but nothing as either borrowed from them , or as laid out by himself is brought in : Many passages of the Fathers are misapplyed ; Many Cavils , Criminations and Calumnies are objected : Many strong words , as Logomachies , Vertigo's , — and Needle-headed Nicities , with Prophecies from Poets are used ; a great part of Erasmus Chilias spent in Proverbs : Much paper blotted , but what concluded ? I shall not here interpose my judgment , as Mr. Menzeis publishes his victory , as Trumpet in the Triumph himself , leaving to each one to read and judge of the papers ; adding only of him , what was said of a Prolix and tedious Orator , who on little matter spent much time in many flourishes of words , and frequent Digressions . Nullum vidi qui magis operosè nihil diceret . Multa sed non multum . Magni passus sed extra viam . Seneca . That is , I have seen none take greater pains to say nothing ; he sayes many things , but not much ; he walks at a great pace , but out of the way . For me as I mind not here , actum agere , so neither do I presume to add any thing to what Mr. Dempster has said in his way of Disputing , which I acknowledge both the shortest and best , to make Mr. Menzeis prove his Grounds ; but he ever declining this , and urging we should shew in them any weakness or defect ; this I here undertake for Mr. Menzeis further conviction , and happily some Protestants conversion , by the goodness and mercy of God. My design being to prove positively the falshood and nullity , as well of his great Principle , of no Infallible visible Judg , as of both his Grounds , and that very succinctly , in a few Sections , without Digressing in the least , or medling with what hath been said . SECT . III. Wherein Mr. Menzeis great Principle , That there is no Infallible visible Judge of Controversie in the true Church is Positively refuted , as the main Ground of all Divisions , Schisms , and Heresies , and contrary to the Scriptures , Fathers , and Reason . AS all Rebellion in Kingdoms and Common-wealths , has its rise from contempt of the lawful Authority of Princes and Magistrates , upon the specious pretence of abuse of Power , against the Laws of the Kingdom , and Liberties of the Subjects : So all Heresies in the Church begin with appeals from the Pastors of the Church , ( the only Judges establisht by Christ ) to his Written Word , which is to all Christians as their Law Book . LEX REX , cry out Rebels with their Calipha Buchanan : LEX JUDEX , or nolo verba quae non sunt scripta , Answers the Heretick with an Arian in the Councel of Nice . They will believe what they read , and not what they hear ; though the Apostle teach us , that Faith comes of hearing , and the reason is , because with Mr. Menzeis , they acknowledge none speaking in matters of Faith and Religion Infallible . No Infallible Visible Judge . This is indeed that great Principle Protestants did broach to themselves in the beginning of Reformation , and at their very first leaping out from the Church , they would admit of no Infallible visible Judge , stand to no Sentence or Decree of Church , Councils , Fathers . Now this Principle being supposed by them to be solid , and an unquestionable truth , nothing can follow thereon , but what is true . Ex vero nil nisi verum , and consequently any private Protestant reading Scripture with a sincere intention , may , yea ought to adhere to what he thinks to be in Scripture , should all the Protestant Church , with all her Assemblies , Synods , Preachers be of a contrary mind . Upon this , Luther and Calvin leave the Catholick Roman Church , and all visible Congregations in the Christian World at that time , because sayes Chamiers Ep. 49. ( though Mr. Menzeis deny it was so ) Then Apostacy averted the whole body from Christ. They made all the Kings and people drunk , from the first to the last , says Calvin , Inst . l. 4. c. 18. and Whitaker , Cont. 4. q. 5. c. 3. No Religion but the Papistical had place in the Church . Duditius apud Bezam ; Ep. 1. sayes more , if that be true which the Fathers have professed , with mutual consent , it is altogether on the Papists side . Upon this same Principle , innumerable other Sects and Sectaries , have left again Protestants , and the Protestant Church upon this , and this only Principle ; every particular man reading Scripture , and taking it as he thinks both words and sense clear , is made his own Judge , and so as many heads almost , as many sentences , and diverse Opinions in Religion : some thinking Scripture clear for this , some for that Sect , some admitting or rejecting whole Books of Scripture at their pleasure : Yea some , and that too too many seeing most clear Scripture tossed and wrested by contrary Sects , suspend their Judgment , renounce their Faith , and quit all Religion , not knowing with what party to side . Others in fine , who think themselves deeper wits , as they are more speculative and searching brains , having run through all can be said , to ascertain any point of Faith ( save only the Divine Oracle in the Church ) have turned Scepticks in Religion , grounding themselves on meer probability . Which Seed of Infidelity ( sayes the Author of a Treatise , Intituled Faith vindicated from possibility of Falshood ) Sowen , when the Infallible Authority of the Church , as the rule of Faith , was renounced , dared , first appear publickly above ground , in the Writings of Mr. Chillingworth , and the L. Falkland , dressed up in a plausible Rhetorick , and set out under a yet more pleasant Title to Protestants , as being against Popery , was most graciously received by many . Yea when it appeared in Mr. Tilletson his Eloquent and Famous Sermon , did begin to get credit , as an Evangelical truth ; and all this upon the foresaid great principle . Upon it the holy work of Reformation by private men , opposing the Law and Gospel , to the judicial Sentence and Decrees of the whole Catholick Church : Upon it the glorious work of the Covenant by some factious Zelots against Prince and Pastors in the Protestant Church : Upon it Preachers and Pulpits clash at randome , Sects and Sectaries multiply , the Christian world is put in confusion with endless Jars and Debates in Religion : And all this because there is no Infallible Judge of Controversie , to give Sentence in favour of any one party silencing all others . In a word for that ( according to Protestants ) God hath given us a Law without a Judg , however inconsistent this may seem , with Order , Providence and wisdom . This one Principle , I say once more with the great St. Augustine , Serm. 14. de verbis Ap. Ruines the very Grounds of Religion . In aliis quaestionibus non diligenter digestis non plenâ Ecclesiae Authoritate firmatis , ferendus est disputator errans , ibi ferendus error : non tamen progredi debet ut fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quatere moliatur : According to the same St. Augustine , ib. whosoever run their heads , were they never so great , ( with Mr. Menzeis ) against this Inexpugnable wall of the Church Authority , are crusht . Hoc habet Authoritas matris Eccelsiae , hoc fundatus veritatis obtinet canon , contra hoc robur , contra hunc Inexpugnabilem murum quisquis arietat ipse confringitur . Is it not on the Church her Infallible Authority , St. Augustine admits the Scriptures , contr . Ep. fund . c. 5. Ego vero Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae commoveret Authoritas ; Doth he not stick so close to the same Authority of the Church , that he sayes , Ep. fund . c. 4. If any clear testimony were brought out of Scripture against it , he would neither believe Scripture nor Church , for that on the Church her Authority he believed the Scripture . Quod si for●e in Evangelio aliquid apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu invenire potueris , infirmabis mihi Catholicorum Authoritatem , qui jubent ut tibi non credam quâ infirmatâ jam nec Evangelio credere potero , quia per eos illi credideram . Was not the Church Judge in Religion for the first two thousand years , before any Scriptures were written ? Was not again the Church of the Jews the same Judge after the Law was given , till Christ his time , and this by the express Order of God in Scripture , Deut. 17. v. 8. would God there direct them unto a Judge , and punish them with death , for not obeying in matters of the Law and Religion , an Authority which might any wise deceive them ? Or in the Law of Grace it self , has Christ in St. Matth. 18. v. 17. commanded us to hear a Church not Infallible or subject to errour ? Is not the Church of God built on a Rock , so that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her , S. Matth. 16.19 . Has not the Church this promise from Christ , S. Matth. 28.20 . And loe I am with you , even to the end of the world . Is not the Church called by the Apostle S. Paul , 1 Tim. 3.13 . The Ground and Pillar of Truth ? However Mr. Menzeis will have this ground sole Scripture . In fine , if these and such like Texts we should hear the Church , receive her Decisions , obey her commands , be not clear , what is clear in all the Scripture ? or if they be subject to diverse Interpretations , who can better judge of their true sense , then the same Church ? Will you say Natural Reason with the Socinians , or the private spirit , with Anabaptists , and Quakers , or conferring of places and passages with Protestants ? Is there any one more rational then the whole Church of God ? any spirit to be trusted , rather then the Spirit of Truth promised to her ? or any one better versed in all the places of Scripture , then all the Bishops and Pastors of the Church composing her Supreme Judicatory in a general Council . Let us hear I pray you the Fathers upon this I mean the Authority both of Church and Councils , as an Infallible Visible Judge , the better to silence Mr. Menzeis vain glorious bragging . S. Irenaeus l. 1. c. 49. We must believe those Priests that are in the Church , those that have a succession from the Apostles , who together with Episcopal Power , have according to the good pleasure of the Father , received the certain gift of truth . And again the same S. Irenaeus c. 62. the Church shall be under no mans judgment ( he excepts not Mr. Menzeis , yea nor Luther , nor Calvin to reform her ) for to the Church all things are known , in which is perfect Faith of the Father , and of the dispensation of Christ , and firm knowledge of the Holy Ghost , who teacheth all truth . Origen praef . in lib. periarch . That only is to be believed for truth , which in nothing disagrees from the Tradition of the Church , and in understanding Scripture , we must not believe otherwise , then as the Church of God hath by succession delivered to us . S. Cyprian de unit . eccl . That the Church cannot be adulterated with Heresy . S. Chrysostom in c. 2. is , That all the Hereticks in the World cannot pervert her Doctrine . S Cyril of Jerusalem , Catech. Myst . 18. That what she once hath received from Christ , she ever holds . S. Cyril of Alexandria , l. 5. in Is . c. 54. That she is founded by Christ in truth for 〈◊〉 . S. Ambrose , l. 4. Hexam . c. 2. That she cannot fail . Eusebius Caesariensis de praeparat Evang. l. 1. c. 3. That her Faith is invincible to the very Powers of Hell. S. Augustine l. 4. de bapt . c. 4. I know by Divine Revelations , that the Spirit of Truth teacheth the Church all truth . S. Augustine again , l. de Utilit . cred . c. 16. Fear not to run to the bosom of the Church , which by succession of Bishops descending from the Apostolical Sea , manifestly even to the acknowledgment of all mankind , hath obtained the height of Authority , Hereticks who on every side barked against her being partly by the consent of Nations , partly by the Authority of Councils , partly by the Majesty of Miracles condemned , to which Church not to yield primacy , is a point either of highest Impiety , or headlong Arrogancy . In fine , the same S. Augustine Ep. 118. To think not right what the Catholick Church practises , is most insolent madness . I leave to the Physicians judgment , what foot of this Distemper and Madness had the first Reformers of the Church , not only thinking and calling what she practised Idolatry and Superstition , but even judging and condemning her of Apostacy , Schism , and Heresy , as Mr. Menzeis here of Arrogancy and Pride ; Odi Ecclesiae illius fastum , I hate says he that Churches Pride , speaking of the Catholick Roman Church , for calling her self Infallible , but let me answer him as Plato Diogen . Calcas Ecclesiae fastum majore fastu , he most persumptuously accuses her of Pride , no lawful establisht Judicatory , being proud in censuring private Delinquents as they deserve , but Rebels to their lawful Judges in censuring them , both Presumptuous and Proud with him . But least any with Mr. Menzeis should apply all these Testimonies of the Fathers , to the diffusive body of the Church , and not to the Representative in a general Council , as if the one were Infallible in Believing , and not the other in Teaching , according to that promise of Christ , in S. Matth. 28.20 . Go teach all Nations , and lo I am with you all days to the end of the world . We must remark that when the necessary good , and preservation of the Church requires the performance of Christs words and promises in future ages , no less then in the Apostles time , then we are to take them , for all ages , except there be some express limitation made , as to Preach , Baptise , remit Sins , feed his Flock , lead men in all Truth , &c. Yet because each Apostle had a power over all the Church , this is said to every one of them , but to their Successors , who have not each one this power , together in a Council , which for this all the Fathers in all ages have acknowledged as a Soveraign and Infallible Judicatory , what ever Mr. Menzeis standing to his Great Principle , say to the contrary . Thus S. Cyril l. 10. de trin . averres Decrees of General Councils to be most Holy and Divine Oracles . S. Leo Ep. 37.64 . A Sentence inspired by the Holy Ghost . S. Epiphanius haeres . 77. A Decision not to be questioned . S. Athanasius Ep. ad Episc . Afric . The Word of God which endureth for ever . S. Basil Ep. 10. The Touch-stone to discern Hereticks . Vincensius Lyrinensis in his Book against Heresies c. 4. says , all who will not be accounted Hereticks , must conform themselves to the Decrees of Oecumenical or General Councils . S. Augustine Ep. 162. Calls them the last Sentence can be expected in matters of Faith. S. Gregory the great l. 1. Ep. 24. Reverences the first four General Councils as the four Evangills . And Constantine the great , the first Christian Emperour , Ep. ad eccle . Alex. as witness Sozomenus , l. 1. c. 24. and Socrates l. 1. c. 6. holds the Decrees of the Council of Nice , against Arius , a Divine Sentence flowing from the mouths of so many , and great Bishops inspired by the Holy Ghost . Wherefore S. Augustine de bapt . contra donat . l. 1. c. 7. concludes , That no doubt ought to be made , of what is by full Decree establisht in a Council . Neither is Mr. Menzeis Objection from him of any force , for when he speaks , l. 2. de bapt . c. 3. of mending Councils by Councils upon further experience , his words are , Cum aliquo rerum experimento aperitur quod clausum est , & cognoscitur quod latebat , clearly shewing he means not any Decision of Faith can be mended , which no experience can learn us , but Divine Revelation alone can teach . Thus to shun prolixity in Citations , do not all the Fathers who were ever present at Councils , Subscribe their Canons and Decrees , annexing Anathemas and Excommunications against all who oppose them in the least . I hear Mr. Menzeis Reply to all this first ▪ but where is that Infallible Church the Scriptures and Fathers speak of ? Answer , That is not here the question , but that there is one , which is contradictory to his great Principle , That there is no Infallible visible Judge . Only I add the Protestant Church cannot be this , they speak of , she not being Infallible as themselves confess , and consequently cannot be the Church and House of God , which the Apostle calls the Ground and Pillar of Truth . Secondly , How many Questions may be moved touching the lawfulness of Councils , now the Fathers speak not of the Council of Trent , but only of lawful ones ? Answer , a contentious spirit will question any thing ; but St. Augustine above cited , tells you of what is by full Decree establisht in a Council , no doubt or question ought to be made . Whatever Protestants object against the Council of Trent , did not the Arians against the Nicene Council ? Nolo verba quae non sunt Scripta , that is , I will believe nothing but the written Word , which is but the eccho repeating now , what was at first cryed out then . Thirdly , God has obliged no man to hear Church or Council against his express and clear Word . Answer , This is true , but is not the Church the most faithful Depositary of Gods Word , best Judge of what is clear , and best Interpreter of what is Obscure ? For no Scripture , says St. Peter , Is of private Interpretation ; and doth not Christ in his written Word most clearly and expresly command us to hear his Church , if we will not be holden as Publicans and Heathens . Fourthly , No Council can be general , where all are not called , and sit with a decisive voice . Answer , Should even Hereticks be called to , and have in Councils their decisive voices ? What agreement could this make in Points controverted ? why not Socinians , Anabaptists , Quakers , as well as Protestants ? should Presbyterians sit with Bishops & Prelaticks in Protestant Assemblies ? what a pitiful shift is this ? If so , let the Covenant be renewed , Bishops again thrust out , and Mr. Menzeis set high , for yielding obedience to them , only through compulsion and fear of loosing his place . Fifthly , The Church her self when fallen in errour , cannot be Judge , being Criminal and Impeached of most hainous crimes , she cannot be both Party and Judge . Answer , This Objection is all Utopian and Chymerical , if we hear the Scripture and Fathers assuring us she cannot err : But giving , and not granting she did ; who then her Judge ? When Subjects rise against their Soveraign , Citizens against their Magistrates ▪ Children against their Parents , leave they to be their Judges , because arraigned by them ? Even Hereticks , must submit to the Sentence and Censures of the Church , when they fall at variance with her ; though they turn Unnatural , she cannot become a Stepmother to them . Sixthly , Infallibility in judging is proper to God. Answer , yes , none but God has it Essentially , and by Nature , but none I hope will deny , he may make the Pastors of his Church , as well Infallible in teaching points of Faith , as his Prophets and Evangelists , in penning the Scripture Books , or at least as any Protestant in reading and understanding them . Seventhly , The Church of Rome is but a particular Church . Answer , we take it not so , when we say the Catholick Roman Church , but for all Churches in Communion with the Roman , as all Countries under the Roman Emperour , are called the Roman Empire , and all people under the Law of Moses , the Jewish Church , though that name taken strictly , belonged to the Tribe of Juda , because the chief City appertained to that Tribe , where the High Bishop resided . So the Universal Church is called the Roman Catholick Church , by reason of St. Peter and his Successors , her high Bishops residing there , whence Rome is the Centre of Ecclesiastical Communion , infusing unity in the whole dispersed body , as the Form of Universality or Catholickship . Wherefore St. Cyprian Ep. ad Cornel. Calls her , Ecclesiam principalem unde unitas Sacerdotalis exorta est : That is , the Principal and chief Church , the Source and Centre of Unity amongst the Priests of all other Churches , and consequently the people . Eighthly , But whereon Grounded this Infallible Authority of the Church ? Answer , On the clear places of Scripture and Fathers above cited ; It is the Ground and Pillar of truth , therefore cannot err . It hath the promise of Gods Spirit to lead it into all truth , therefore cannot err . It is said to be built on the Rock , against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail , therefore cannot err . Christ hath placed in it Apostles , Doctors , Pastors , and Bishops to the consummation and perfection of the whole body , that we be not carried away with every blast of new Doctrines , therefore it cannot err . It is the House , the Spouse , the Mystick body of Christ , his Lot , Kingdom , and Inheritance in this world , therefore cannot err . On the Authority of the Church the Fathers have received the Originals , Translations , and Sense of Scripture Books , yea some chief Points of Faith , not mentioned in Scripture , as persons in the Trinity , Sacraments in the Church , keeping holy the Sunday , &c. therefore cannot err . Christ has commanded , and that under pain of Damnation , to hear the Church in matters of Faith and Religion , therefore it cannot err . All are obliged to live in Communion with the Church , therefore cannot erre . The Church hath from Christ , and ever has exercised a Judicatory Power in all belonging to Faith and Worship , therefore cannot err . Christ hath sealed constantly in all Ages her Doctrine with Wonders , and Miracles , therefore it cannot err : To conclude , if the Church and her Pastors assembled in Councils mistake clear Scripture , misapply Scriptures , deceive , or be deceived , what particular man can either justly censure her , and them , or solidly Ground himself ? Magna vis veritatis , great is the strength of Verity , and nothing more true then what is here holden out , that to admit with Mr. Menzeis , of no Infallible visible Judge of Controversie , is the only Fountain and Spring of all Divisions , Schisms , and Heresies , to which this one Protestant Principle , opens so wide a Gate . SECT . IV. Wherein Mr. Menzeis first Ground of the Protestant Religion , to wit sole Scripture , is shewn to be no Ground to them ; and that they have not reformed the Church according to the uncorrupted Scriptures , but corrupted the Sciptures to deform the Church . SCripture then is Protestants ground of Religion , and in it all Fundamentals are clear , this is very plausible , to the ignorant people , who think it to be so upon their Ministers Tradition , and highly Glory both in reading and explaining the Bible . Yet no peculiar Ground to them , as was required , all Hereticks for ought M. Menzeis hath said , pretending with as great reason , the same . Neither have Heresies , says St. Augustine , l. 1. c. 4. contr . ad vers . leg . & proph . or certain Doctrines bewitching the mind sprung from any other Head , then from good Scriptures not well understood . But to proceed with order , before we come to the understanding of Scripture . First , What Scripture , I pray you is this the Protestant Ground ? Is it the Scripture Translated , or in the Original Tongues ? Mr. Menzeis speaks nothing of this . The learned Chamiers cited as a chief Protestant Champion by him in his Panstratia l. 1. c. 2. s . 15. Says only true Originals , adding , as for Translations , the sense of Protestants is , that all of them , of what standing , name , or credit soever they be , and with what Diligence , Sincerity or Learning soever they were made , are only so far certain , as they agree with the first Context , I mean says he , as they express that , sense which is certainly manifest , to be the true sence of the Hebrew and Greek words . And Doctor Daniel in his Treatise , the Dippers Dipped , has these words , p. 1. No Translation is simply Authentical or the undoubted Word of God. To these Subscribe● Doctor Baron our Countrey man , inferiour to no Protestant , I know , either in Loyalty or Learning , Tract . 1. c. 2. p. 46. Laici illiterati , &c. Unlearned Laicks , says he , believe only Implicitly , confusedly , and 〈◊〉 upon the Divine Authority of Scripture forme●ly taken ; by reason they can have no certain express and distinct knowledge of the Doctrine contained in Scripture as such , or of the agreement of Translations in vulgar Languages , with the Originals , yea , they know not so much , but upon other mens testimony and report , as that the Doctrine propounded to them to be believed , is set down in the Scripture or written Word at all . Whence followeth according to these learned Protestants , the ground of the Protestant Religion must be only the Scripture in the Original Languages , that is Greek , Hebrew and Syriack , which of a thousand Protestants , 2. does not understand : Where then must all other Protestants ground their faith ( a very few number of Linguists being excepted ) shal they believe only Implicitely , and on other mens report , as D. Baron will have them ? But this is the Colliers Faith Mr. Menzeis jears , though I fear all his skill in Languages , often force him to turn a Collier himself : or shall they rely on Translations which Chamiers after all diligence used , and Doctor Daniel with him , confess not to be the undoubted Word of God , but in so far as they are known to agree with the Hebrew and Greek Texts , and how few undoubtedly know this ? Yea Protestant Translations of the Bible are so generally corrupt , that you shall find none that has not been challenged , even by most learned Protestants , for manifold corruptions , and that very gross . To begin at Luther , let us hear Zuinglius of him , Tom. 2. ad Luther C. de Sacram. fol. 412. Where after detection of many corruptions in Luther , he concludes thus , See how thy case standeth , that in the eyes of all men thou art seen to be a manifest and common corrupter of holy Scripture , which thing thou canst never deny before any Creature , how much are we ashamed of thee , who hereto have esteemed thee beyond all measure , and now find thee to be such a false fellow . Neither can Luther deny his corruptions himself , for in that place of St. Paul , where a man is said to be justified by faith , he grants l. Contra Cochleum p. 408. he puts into the Text , the word , only , which the Apostle has not , Licet Paulus verbo , sola non utatur qou ego usus sum ; and is not this a main place Protestants use against us , so well are they grounded in Scripture . Of Calvin , Charles Molinaeus in his Translation of the New Testament , part . 2. fo . 110. says Calvin in his Harmony , maketh the Text of the Scripture to leap up and down , as the truth it self declareth , he useth violence to the Letter of the Gospel , and in many places clearly transposes it , and besides this addeth to the Text. Are these the Reformers of the Church by the uncorrupted word , or corrupters of the Word to deform the Church ? Castalio saith of Beza , That to note all his Errors in translating the New Testament , it would require a great volume . Five times he differs from himself , though one of the best Linguists ever Protestants had . King James a great Scholar , as a great Monarch in the sum of the conference before his Majesty , thinks the Geneva Translation the worst of all others . And Mr. Parkes in his defence of the first Testimony concerning Christs descending into Hell , says , as for the Geneva Bibles , it is to be wished that either they be purged from those manifold Errours , which are both in the Text , and at the Margent , or else utterly prohibited . Now as to our own Translations in English , Mr. Bruges in his Apology , Sect. 6. Says plainly , that the approved Protestant Translation , hath many omissions , many additions , which sometimes obscure , sometime pervert the sense . And M. Carleil p. 116. remarkes that the English Protestants in many places detort the Scriptures from their right sense , and shew themselves to love darkness more then light , falshood more then truth , they have corrupted and depraved the sense , obscured the Truth , deceived the Ignorant , and supplanted the simple . And Mr. Broughton a chief Linguist in England , in his Epistle to the Lords of the Privy Council , desireth them to procure speedily a new Translation , because that which is now is full of Errours . And in his Advertisement of corruptions to the Protestant Bishops , saith , that their publick Translation of Scriptures is such , as it perverteth the Text of the Old Testament in four hundred forty eight places , and that it causeth millions of millions to reject the New Testament , and run to Eternal flames . How many divers and different Translations in Queen Elizabeths and King James times ? how often what was first at the Margent , hath been put in the Text ? Now if Translators of the Scripture in English , men furnished with so many helps , endued with so many gifts , so well versed in the Hebrew , and Greek tongues , so guided by all the Rules Mr. Menzeis gives to attain the right meaning and sense of Holy Writ , have fallen into so many , and so gross errours and Mistakes , as to have depraved , detorted , wrested , obscured the Scripture and Word of God , so that it , as Translated by them decieveth the Ignorant , supplanteth the simple , perverteth the Text in so many places , as that it carrieth milions to Eternal Flames ; What hope can any one have of meaner Talents with fewer helps , and less learning and knowledge , to attain by his own private reading of Scripture , the undoubted Truth , Steadiness in faith and Religion , a full and satisfactory solution of all doubts , or security of Salvation ? and yet these very same so corrupt Translations ( as their own Ghospellers testifie ) are read in Churches , expounded in Pulpits , and put in the hand of every one who understands neither Latine , Greek nor Hebrew , as his sole ground of Faith ; and Judg of controversie , whereby he is made able to Judge , not only of Popish Errors , the Writings of the Fathers , and Decrees of Councils , but even of his own Pastors Doctrine , his Churches Faith , and his Countries Religion . Secondly , to come to the Originals ; Shall they then onely be the Protestants Ground of Faith ? If so , I ask Mr. Menzeis where we shall find them ? Yea we are so far from having all the Originals , that it is doubted in what Language some parts of Scripture were written . The purity of Originals is sometimes called in Question , and Calvin Inst . l. 1. C. 13. Doth imagine even these the Fountains run not always clear . Luther Enar. in Is . Cryes out on the Jews for crucifying the Text , as well as Christ , and upon Gen. C. 24. Says again , he has often told many words there be in the Hebrew Text , which the Hebrews themselves do not understand . And to say true , amongst the Jews , the least of their three Massoreshe's ( so they call the Book which contains the many corruptions , and divers Lections in the Hebrew Text ) counts eight hundred places disagreeing , ambiguous or corrupt , neither do the most learned Rabbies agree in the Letter of Scripture : In Hebrew it self , some reading according to the Points , or Vowels put in by Rabbi Jacob , and some by these of Rabbi Aron , most different one from another ; all the points being added to the Text , Five hundred years after Christ , and that by his professed Enemies the Jews , long after the Vulgar Latine Translation which was made before the Text , and Letter of Scripture was corrupt . But Protestants take in also with these the corruptions of the Greek Text remarked in part by St. Ireneus , Tertullian , Origen , and others , says Eusebius , when the ancient Hereticks the Arians , Macedonians , Nestorians , &c. had corrupted and adulterated the Word of God , to support their Errours , as Protestants at present in all their Translations do . I know M. Menzeis will tell me perhaps he hath seen both the Hebrew and the Greek Texts ; well but who assures him they are not corrupt ? Yes , but the Protestants have corrected them , and that according to the Authenticks , which never any Protestant did see . The most Learned amongst Protestants have never seen the Original Scriptures which were first penned by the Prophets , Apostles , and Evangelists ; Copies are no less subject to faults in the Letter , then Translations to mistakes in the sense . Yea , the Authors of that great & famous Bible that is Printing at London ( if not yet ended ) in so many Languages , witnesseth in the Preface they have set out , not so much as one Copy could be found they can assure to agree in all things with the Original : their labour may be great in this vast Volume to correct the Copies they find deficient , but their Authority is not Infallible : In a word , no Infallible Authority is admitted by Protestants to judge either of the Letter or Sense , For that savours rankly , says M. Menzeis of that Erroneous Popish Tenet , of an Infallible visible Judge of Controversie . And I Answer , to deny one in all these and such like cases savours rankly of a tottering , wavering , groundless Faith , most like to that of M. Menzeis . I say yet further , if no Translations of Scripture can be a ground of Faith , as most learned Protestants grant , so neither any Original it would seem , without some Infallible Judg ; for I must ever be sure they are unccorrupted ; and again all the defect in Translations coming from the misunderstanding of Originals ; I ask who dare say he understands them , better then they who have Translated , and upon this , as he himself reads , and conceives , ground his Religion and Faith. Thirdly , before all this , if M. Menzeis will prove it a solid Ground to rely on sole Scripture , as the onely ground of Faith , without any Infallible visible Judge , or assurance , that he who tells me this is the uncorrupted Letter , this the true and genuine Sense , has the peculiar assistance of the Holy Ghost : I demand what Infallible Motive can prudently perswade Protestants that the Word of God they rely on , was ever set down in Writing , or is extant at this day ? Is it the testimony of Scripture calling it self Gods Word , or the Innate Light of the same Scripture , showing it self to be such , to a well disposed Intellect and mind ? If the first , do not Nicodemus and S. Thomas Gospels carry the same titles , with these of St. Matthew and St. Mark ? If the second , then the Fathers of the first three ages ( whom M. Menzeis most owns ) were not well disposed persons , who did not acknowledge some Books of Scripture till the Authority of a Council at Carthage had declared them Canonical ; and much less Luther , that holy man , who rejecteth St. James Epistle with some others . As Protestants ground their Faith , say they , on Gods word , so Quakers on the Spirit : and we deny not but both be equally Infallible , if once known Infallibly to be the Spirit or Word of God. But we demand of each Sect , what Infallible External Rule or Motive they give us , to know either Gods Word speaking in Scripture , or Spirit in them ? Both answer with M. Menzeis , they both show themselves to all who are well disposed . But this clears not us , the well disposed heart being only known to God ; let all then be objectively true , ( as M. Menzeis sayes his Religion is ) which they both teach , ( as certainly is , what ever by Gods Word or Spirit is revealed ) we only insist to know Infallibly that God did reveal such Doctrine as theirs , either by his Word or Spirit . For we receive now no Immediate Revelations , as the Prophets and Apostles did in old times , nor have we Evidentiam in attestante , as the Divines call it , that is any Evidence that it is God who speaks ; points of faith being only propounded to us by men , who either put the Scriptures in our hands to read , or teach us by word of mouth . The Protestants great Principle , let 's own no man or Church as an Infallible Judge ; yea M. Menzeis in his sixth paper , offers upon this to turn Papist , if the Infallible assistance of the Propounder can be proved necessary : but never clears what other way we can be Infallibly assured that all which the Protestants do teach , was revealed by God. Unless it be in his third paper , where speaking of the True and Genuine Sense of Scripture , he tells us we may have it as from a Jurist , the Explication of a Municipal Law , or from a Mathematitian , a demonstration of Euclides . But what a weak Answer is this ? Do any receive Demonstrations on Authority as Points of Faith ? Or is the assent I give to the Law so explained by a Jurist Infallible ? If Christ himself had not shown his Divinity by his Works and Wonders , he grants the Jews had committed no sin in refusing to belive him : The Apostles Credentials were their Miracles , both did thus evidence the Infallible assistance they had of Gods Spirit to the World ; and shall any man trust M. Menzeis boldly asserting there is no necessity of any ? was it not for this the power of Miracles was left in the Church , as the marks of her assistance , and seals of her Doctrine , with other Motives of credibility ? Notwithstanding Protestants with M. Menzeis will propound to us the Catalogue of Canonical Scripture Books , assure us of the uncorrupt Copies and Letter , enforce upon our Consciences the sense they give , whil'st so confidently obtruding all this , they neither dare , or do say , nor can evidence by any external mark or sign , they have the particular assistance of Gods Spirit ; As if all this were clear in it self , with Mathematical Demonstrations . But doth Scripture in our Bibles , show it self better to be the Word of God now , then when Christ was speaking in person ? Then an external Evidence , God did speak by his Son , is acknowledged as necessary by him , and now shall any man reasonably say , there is no necessity of any , when he speaks by his servants and Church ? however this prove efficacious and strong for M. Menzeis conversion , it would seem to me more then sufficient for his ▪ or any mans conviction . Fourthly , to claim to Scripture , yet so as they can no wise evidence they take it aright , is common to Protestants with all Hereticks , so no peculiar Ground . When Sectaries clash with Sectaries , is not all their babling out of Scripture ? You shall see , says Vincentius Lyrinensis , c. 35. Hereticks so abound with Scripture , as they fly through all the Volumes of the holy Law , through Moses , the Books of Kings , the Psalmes and Prophets , &c. read the works of Paulus Sam satenus , Priscillian , Eunomius , &c. you shall not find ae page which is not Coloured and painted out with the sentences of Old and New Testament . Nestorius to support his Heresie gloried ( as Gennadius reporteth in his Catalogue ) in the evidence of threescore Testimonies which he produced , as the Covenant in three hundred , whereof scarce three any wise to the purpose . The Valentinians , Marcionists , Arians , will submit to none but Scripture , as St. Augustine witnesseth of Maximinus the Arian Bishop in his first Bok against him . Neither doth it avail M. Menzeis to say Scriptures are clear in terminis , or made clear by conferring of places , or show themselves clearly to a well disposed mind . First , for that though a place of Scripture be clear in it self , yet when divers Sects take it diversly , a man may justly suspect his own judgment , seeing so many of a contrary mind . So that it wanteth not difficulty to determine always what is absolutely clear , there being many clear places as would seem , not to be taken in the clear and obvious sense , as the passages Hereticks did most build on , will presently shew . As when Marcion despiseth Moses and the Prophets upon Christs own clear words in S. John the 10. How many soever have come before me are Thieves and Robbers . The Manichees affirmed Christ to be the Sun , upon a like Scripture in St. John the 8. I am the light of the world . The Waldenses taught no man could be put to death , no not by the lawful Authority of a Judge , upon clear Scripture again , Exod. 20. Thou shalt not kill , &c. The Devil citeth clear Scripture to Christ , and the Jews against his death , we have heard in the Law the Messias abideth for ever . Moreover many seeming Contradictions in Scripture , you shall find in Becan and others , one might think clear . And many things are believed even by Protestants , which be not in Scripture at all : as Persons in the Trinity , Sacraments in the Church , and the Command of keeping holy the Sunday ; the Scripture neither naming persons , or telling what a person is , defining Sacraments ( as M. Menzeis doth ) or setting down their number ; abrogating the keeping of the Sabbath , or having for the Sunday any command . Many places of Scripture again are flatly against Protestants , and clear for us , as for the Real Presence , This is my Body , this is my Blood , S. Matth. 26. For Justification not by Faith only , but also good works . Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by Faith only , S. James 2.24 . For Traditions from the Apostles , besides the written Word . Therefore brethren stand fast and hold the Traditions which ye have been taught , whether by Word , or our Epistle , 2 Thes . 2.13 . And such like places cited in most Books of Controversie , for all Controverted Tenets , Protestants never being able to bring any one clear place of Scripture against any of our Tenets , not evidently mistaken or confessedly corrupted , as when they make S. Paul say , a man is justified by faith only ; Luther above cited , granting he has put in the word only , which Saint Paul hath not ; or , Thou shalt not make to thy self any Graven Image , in place of Idol , as is clearly the word Pesel in the Hebrew Text. Secondly , as to conferring of places , and explaining the more obscure , by these which are clear , did not Arius boast of this against the Fathers of the Council of Nice , proving the unity in Nature of the Father and Son , out of these words in S. John the 10. I and my Father are one . No , says the Arian , this place as obscure to us , and passing the reach of Humane capacity , must be explained by this other more clear in St. John 17. where Christ prayes his Apostles , May be one with him , as he and his Father are one ; that is in will and affection , and surely the second place is clearer to us , and consequently according to M. Menzeis Rule , the Arian Heresie must prevail ; neither will he ever be able standing to his Rule , to answer an Arian Cobler making this Objection , as Learned Writers remark . Eutyches conferring these two places , The Word was made flesh , in S. John 1. and the water was made Wine , in S. John 2. fell in this detestable Blasphemy , That the Humane Nature was changed into the Divine , as the Water was converted into Wine . And without all doubt again , the second is the clearer place to us , the first , that two Natures should be united in one Person , surpassing as the Divines teach , even the Natural capacity of Angels . Manicheus explains the same passage , The Word was made flesh , Figuratively , and in show , as Protestants , This is my body , and that by a clear place of S. Paul to the Phil. 2. v. 7. where it is said , Christ took upon him the form of a servant , and was made in the likeness of men . Most clear words as would seem in favour of this Heresie , and such that if Protestants could bring any , with as great a show against the real presence , all their Pulpits should sound with them till their hearers became deaf . But there be none in all the Scripture so clear against the real presence I say , as the words quoted have a seeming clearness against the real Incarnation of Christ , the four Evangelists , and S. Paul speaking in so express and formal words for the former , that the Fathers with St. Chrysostome , Hom. 6. have recourse to the words for the real presence as clearer , to prove , that giving in the Sacrament his body and blood , he must have taken the Nature of Man. Nestorius on the contrary will have these words of S. John the 2. Dissolve ye this Temple , and in three dayes I shall raise it again , to be taken Litterally , and not Figuratively ; and upon this holds out a new Heresie , that the Son of God did dwell only in his Holy Humanity as in a Temple . Valentine and Apollinaris reading in S. John 3. no man hath ascended into heaven , but he that descended from Heaven , gain sayes the Mystery of Christs Incarnation , and wil needs have his flesh to have descended from Heaven , as his Manhood afterwards ascended thither . And this Heretical Exposition , they confirm by conferring the ensuing places in St. Paul to the Ephesians 4. He that descended , the same is also he who ascended . And in the first to the Corinths 15. The first man of Earth Earthly , the second Man of Heaven Heavenly . A thousand such Errors in the greatest Fundamentals of Christianity have Hereticks drawn out of the clear Fountains and Brooks of holy Writ , by the deceivable , and deceiving search of weighing places ; Why not Protestants with them ? they sail on the same Sea , and deep of Scriptures with them ; they direct their course by the same Card of conferring clearer and obscurer places : the same Rule they apply to all the crooked lines of their Errors and Deviations . What can be answered to all this : M. Menzeis Principle always standing , No Infallible visible Judg , but to have recourse with him to the well disposed mind , wherefore ▪ Thirdly , I say this doth not yet satisfie to the Question , no not with all the means of Interpretation M. Menzeis doth bring , it being as hidden , Intricate , Doubtful and Inscrutable , who performs all these Conditions aright , as to find out certainly and infallibly the true sense of Scripture , without an Infallible Judge . Yea supposing one uses them aright , yet let us learn from no lesser Protestant then Doctor Jeremy Taylor , what certainty of the true sense men can attain by them : His words are so remarkable to my purpose in a Discourse of liberty in Prophesying , Sect. 4. that here I even set them down at length . First then says he , Sometime the sense is drawn forth by the Context , and Connexion of Parts . It is well when it can be so . But when there is two or three Antecedents and Subjects spoken of : What Man , or what Rule shall ascertain me , that I make my Reference true , by drawing the Relation to such an Antecedent , to which I have a mind to apply it , another hath not . Secondly , One other great pretence is , the conference of places , which is of so indefinite capacity , that if there be ambiguity of words , variety of sense , alteration of Circumstances , or difference of Style amongst Divine Writers , then there is nothing which may be more abused by wilful people , or may more easily deceive the unwary , or that may more amuse the most diligent observer . Thirdly , Oftentimes Scriptures are pretended to be expounded by a proportion and Analogy of reason , but it is with Reason as with mens tasts , When a man speaks reason , it is but reason he should be heard , &c , yet because it must be reason that must judg of reason , unless other mens understandings were of the same Air , the same Constitution and ability , they cannot be prescribed unto by another mans reason ; especially because such reasonings as usually are in Explication of particular places of Scripture depend upon minute Circumstances and Particularities , in which it is so easy to be deceived , and so hard to speak Reason regularly and always , that it is the greater wonder , if we be not deceived . Fourthly , Others pretend to Expound Scripture by Analogy of Faith. This he says is but a Chimera , a thing in the Clouds , which varies like the right and left hand of a Pillar , &c. Fifthly , Consulting of Originals , is thought a great matter to Interpretation of Scriptures ; but this is to small purpose , for indeed it will expound the Hebrew and the Greek , and rectifie Translations : But I know no man that says , that the Scriptures in Hebrew and Greek are easy , & certain to be understood , and that they are hard in Latine and English . The difficulty is in the thing , however it be expressed , the least in the Language , &c. Then numb . 6. he saith in general , All these ways of Interpreting Scriptures , which of themselves are good helps , are made either by design , or by our infirmities , ways of Intricating and Involving Scriptures in greater difficulty , because men do not learn their Doctrines from Scripture , but come to the understanding of Scriptures , with preconceptions and Idea's of Doctrines of their own , and then no wonder Scripture look like Pictures ; wherein every man in the room thinks they look on him only , and that wheresoever he stands , or how often soever he changes his Station . So that now what was intended for a remedy , becomes the Promoter of our Disease , and our Meat becomes the matter of sickness : and the Mischief is , the wit of man cannot find a remedy for it ; For there is no Rule ; no Limit , no certain Principle by which all men may be guided to a certain , and so Infallible Interpretation , that he can with any Equity prescribe to others to believe his Interpretations in places of Controversie or ambiguity . Osiander in his confutations of the Book which Melancton wrote against him , observes there are twenty several Opinions concerning Justification , all drawn from the Scriptures , by the men only of the Augustan confession . There are sixteen several Opinions concerning Original sin ; and as many Definitions of the Sacraments as there are Sects of men that disagree about them . Lastly , He concludes Num. 8. since those ordinary means of Expounding Scripture as searching the Originals , Conference of places , Parity of Reason , and Analogy of Faith , are all dubious , uncertain , and very fallible : He that is the wisest , and by consequence the likelyest to Expound truest in all probability of Reason , will be very far from confidence ; because every one of these , and many more are like so many degrees of Improbability and uncertainty , all depressing our certainty of finding out truth in such Mysteries , and amidst so many Difficulties . Remark well all this discourse from so great a Protestant Doctor , finding no certainty of the true sense of Scripture , by all the means of Interpretation , and reflect with all a little in how hard a condition Protestants stand , admitting no Infallible visible Judge in Controversy , but boldly undertaking to decide all that which is controverted by sole Scripture , Explained by such fallible means , and yet more fallible men . It is but a Labyrinth of windings and turnings to pass from Scripture as clear in words , to conferring of places , and deducing consequences , after Prayer used , and diligent search made , with a well disposed mind , then to the inward motion , or the private Spirit , against which the Prophets and Apostles so generally exclaim , Ezekiel in his 13. Chapter , wo be to the foolish Prophets , who follow their own Spirit . S. Peter in his 2 Epistle Chap. 1. No Prophecy of Scripture is of Private Interpretation . Neither is the question here , what is inwardly required in every private man to believe Scripture ( but what is the external , visible , and infallible Rule of Faith ) for that is out of all doubt with us . Faith is a supernatural and infused virtue , to which the pious motion in the will is no less requisite , then the Supernatural light in the understanding to assent to what is revealed by God. But seeing neither this light nor pious motions as they are supernatural , and incline only to believe a revealed truth , do manifest themselves to be such : Therefore many thousands even well disposed persons , and who seek God in the sincerity of their hearts , oftentimes perswade themselves ( till they be better instructed ) they believe such a thing as a revealed truth by God , which is a condemned Error by him . And this none can deny , who will not maliciously condemn a world of zealous Ignorants , yea some even most learned and holy Fathers , who with St. Cyprian in the Point of Rebaptization , have believed an Error for a revealed Truth , before it was clearly decided by the Church . However , whether it be this , or something else M. Menzeis calls a well disposed mind ; others the Spirit , or the private spirit , the Spirit of the Righteous man , and so forth ; I say , it cannot be either with the holy Scripture , or alone , the Rule of Faith , and Judg of Controversie . 1. Because none without some Particular help can be Infallibly assured of this Interiour Motion , Affection , or Spirit , whether it be Natural , or Supernatural , from God or the Devil , the Spirit of Darknes or Light , now no man , as M. Field confesseth , L. 4. C. 7. Proveth any thing is , or may be doubted of , by that which is as much to be doubted of as it self . 2. We are counselled in the 2 Epistle of St. John Ch. 4. Not to believe every Spirit , but to try the Spirits if they be of God : But if the Spirits must be brought to the Touchstone of Trial , if they must be judged and approved by some other well known and undoubted Authority , they are not the sole Rule and Supreme Judg of Faith and Controversy : Because this Spirit is secret and hidden , our Faith publick and evidently credible ; this Spirit particular , our Faith Catholick or Universal ; this Spirit the gift of every particular man , our Faith subject to no private censure . Wherefore M. Hooker Eccl. Pol. L. 1. Sect. 14. and Whitaker against Stapleton C. 2. C. 4. Ingeniously grant , that the outward Letter of Scripture , sealed with the inward and private Spirit , is not a sufficient Warrant for every particular man to receive or reject Scripture Books , but that the publick Authority of Gods Church , is necessarily required . Whence I say further with S. Augustine l. Contr. Ep ▪ fund . c. 5. That Authority which we obey and believe , testifying the Books of the holy Ghospel , the same must we believe , witnessing this to be the sence of the Ghospel , that is not the private Spirit , but the same Authority of the Church . Thirdly , This private Spirit is so far from being the Judge of controversy upon any pretence of adhering to Scripture , either as clear in it self , or explained by it , that instead of compounding debates and keeping unity ( the chief Office of this Judg ) it is the very Root of Dissention , and Fountain of Heresies and Schisms , for as by experience we see it to be different in divers persons , so as the Bell to fools , it speaketh as they fancy , it inclines as they are affected , it points out the Object according to the Colour which is in the eye ; It is like a false light which makes the Aspect of best and fairest Figures vary ; It is often a blind zeal , or a prejudicate Opinion , which hinders to see what is clear in Scripture , as S. Augustine l. 3. de Doctr. C. 10. well Remarks , If the Prejudice , saith he , of any Erroneous Opinion preoccupate the mind , whatsoever the Scripture hath to the contrary , men take it to be a Figurative Speech . So that it furnisheth to every Sectary reading Scripture , his own Spectacles , in conferring places , his own Rule of proportions : His private Weights to ponder Reasons ▪ his particular Forge to coine Opinions , his secret Touch-stone to try Doctrines , his own Reed to measure the Temple , Sanctuary and Altar : Makes him his own high Priest , Pastor , and Judg , setting up within himself a Supreme Judicatory , giving ever sentence in his favour , and censuring all the world beside ; So that none standing to this Rule , can be compelled to the unity of the Church , and yet none can be accounted Hereticks , as the learned Suares , l. 1. de defi . fid . C. 11. most judiciously remarketh , if we take Scripture as men read , who think themselves well disposed , or Expounded by it self according to the Dictamen of the private Spirit , for ground , for who can swarve from Scripture as clear , according to his particular Judgment and Spirit , which he even esteemeth to be the Spirit of God. Scripture therefore cannot be Judge of Controversie , as M. Menzeis will have it . 1. By reason the sentence of this Judg must breed a certain and Infallible assurance of all that can come in doubt , which Scripture cannot do . It being infallible indeed in it self , but not to us , who may doubt if such a Book be Canonical , such a Copy conform to the Original , such a Translation Authentick , such a place clear , such a sense genuine . 2. The Judge of Controversie ought to give a clear sentence , which the learned and unlearned may equally understand , and as the Law , sayes the Apostle , is not for the just , but the unjust , so the Judg of Controversie is not only for the well disposed , but more in some manner for others , and especially the unlearned and unstable , who according to St. Peter , Wrest the Scriptures to their own damnation ; Yea the most learned amongst the Fathers , as S. Basil , and S. Gregory Nazianzen , after much pains in the study of Scripture , as testifieth Ruffinus l. 11. Hist . C. 9. refuse to interpret them , but according to the Rule and Uniform consent of their Fore-fathers , not relying on all the means of Interpretation M. Menzeis prescribes ; and they had reason , the Scripture being the Book S. John describeth to be clasped with seven Seals , Apoc. 5. v. 16. which Ezekiel termeth the enrolled volume , written within and without . S. Ambrose Ep. 44. A Sea containing most profound Senses of Prophetical Riddles . S. Augustine l. 2. de doctrina . Christ . C. 6. hard in the Stile , Discourse , Places , as well as in the Subject and Matter : which makes him cry out , l. 12. Confess . c. 14. O the wonderful depth of thy speeches , O the wonderful depth ; S. Hierome Ep. 13. C. 4. Says the Text of Scripture has a Shell to be broken , before that we can tast the sweetness of the Kernel : and Vincentius Lyrinensis , C. 2. That all take not holy Scripture by reason of its deepness in one and the same sense , but some interpret one way , some another , so that there may seem to be picked out as many senses as men ; for Novatus doth Expound one way , and Sabellius another , otherwise Donatus , otherwise Arius , Eunomius , Macedonius , otherwise Photinus , Apollinaris , and other Hereticks with them : therefore very necessary it is for the manifold turnings and by-wayes of Errors , that the Line of Prophetical and Apostolical interpretation be levelled according to the Square of the Ecclesiastical and Catholick sense , whereof Tertullian de Praescript . gives this reason , for that the sense adulterated , is alike perillous as the Stile corrupted . But what danger of this , says M. Menzeis if Scripture be clear , men cannot mistake ( if not wilfully blinded ) what is so ▪ Could not the Law-maker speak as clear as the Judg ? Answer , we have seen there is nothing almost in Scripture , but has been , and so may be mistaken : Therefore the necessity of a Judge , however the Law speak clear , has been acknowledged by the greatest men , and best wits in the world ; Aristotle in the first Book of his Morals , and fourth of his Politicks , And Plato in his Republick , prefers good Judges even to best Laws : Judges have been ever establisht by the Laws in all Nations , as by Scripture , in the Church of God ; and the necessity of one to keep concord and unity , is partly grounded on the nature of most clear Words and Sentences , which may be taken according to the Letter or Sense , Properly or Figuratively , Morally , or Mystically , and so forth : Partly on the diversity of Opinions , men commonly judging as they are affected , and diversly of one and the same thing as their understandings , inclinations , or interests leads them . His Majesties Secretary of State may write no doubt , as clear as the Lords of Council and Session speak , yet his Letters are directed to them in most businesses of weight , least others should take them otherwise then written , or wrest them to their own ends ; even so is it of Scripture written by the Prophets , and Evangelists , and delivered to the Pastors and Doctors of the Church . Whence Catholick Romans build their Belief upon Scripture , not taken as they fancy , but Explained by Apostolical Tradition conserved in the Church , and the unanimous consent of the Fathers , and if any doubt arise of both these , on the General Definition and Decision of the present Catholick Church . Protestants , as M. Menzeis holds out , ground their Faith on Scripture , which they have corrected , or rather corrupted , as clear in it self , or made clear by diligent reading and conferring of places with prayers , and ( as they imagine ) a well disposed mind , that is a Prejudicate Opinion that their own Tenets are right . Now let any man judg , which of these two is most conform to Scripture it self in both Testaments , to the practice of the Church in all ages ; to the consent of Fathers above cited , and Reason . For first , This the Protestant way would seem vain , arrogant and presumptuous , in so far as that a man who followeth it , must be so confident of himself , that if he fancy Scripture to be clear for such a Tenet , were all the Christian World in a contrary judgment , yea had all Christians been so from the time of the Apostles , yet must he stand to his fancy grounded upon clear Scripture , as he thinks ; So that no perswasion can remove him from it , for that it is a point of his Faith , but for a man to be so peremptorily resolute in the sense he hath found in Scripture by his private reading , is very presumptuous , I say , for wherein can he ground prudently such a strong assent , as is required in Divine Faith , which ought to be above all can be said against it . Shall it be on the clearness of the words ? conference of places ? on his skill in Tongues ? on his weighing the precedent and consequent places ? or on the assistance of the Spirit given to him ? If so , is it not intollerable pride and presumption in any one man , to think that no other was ever so clear sighted , or quick witted , to see and understand in Scripture what is clear ? no other in such a multitude of Doctors and Fathers , so well versed in the Original Languages , so circumspect to confer places , so exact to weigh Circumstances , so acute to draw Consequences , in fine , so well disposed to find the Truth , so fervent in Prayer , so particularly enlightned , directed , and assisted by the Spirit of God ? What is whymsical , Phanatick , and Foolish , if this be not ? wherefore Doctor Field ashamed any should think this to be Protestant Doctrine , says , None of their Divines teach the Scriptures to be so clear , that they may be certainly understood by reading and conferring of places . For the Rule of Faith says he , in his Appendix 2. p. p. 12. is Doctrine descending by Tradition from the Apostles , according to which the Scriptures are to be Expounded . And in his fourth Book C. 14. The Rule of Faith is the consenting judgment of them that went before us , the Rule without which we cannot know the meaning of the things that are in Scriptures , for who shall be able to understand them , but he that is setled in these things which the Apostles presupposed in their delivery of Scripture . Afterward in the 15. Chap. having said , There is no question but there be many obscurities in Scripture . And in the 18. Ch. having set down many senses of Scriptures , in the 19. he writes thus , We confess that neither conference of places , nor consideration of what followeth , or goes before , nor looking into Originals , are of any force , unless we find the things which we conceive to be understood and meant in the places interpreted to be consonant to the Rule of Faith , ( that is , Tradition conserved in the Church ) neither is there any of our Divines that ever taught otherwise . Where you see by Doctor Field , M. Menzeis is discarded from being a Protestant Divine ; the Scripture however clear , is declared to be no Rule or Ground of Faith , but according to the sense of them that went before us ; as all other means besides Tradition in his 16. Ch. are propounded to be but probable Conjectures , and not infallible grounds . And this most rationally , for what private man , as I have said , can assure himself , that either the finding out the true sense of Scripture , as to him , is tyed to the means of Interpretation M. Menzeis sets down , or that he makes a right use of all these means ? For as the same Dr. Field judiciously remarks , and ingenuously grants with S. Augustine , contra . Ep. Fundam . and de Util. cred . few men have leasure , fewer strength of understanding to examine the particular Controversies , so many , and so intricate in these our dayes : and that the way to satisfie their Consciences in this most important affair , is to find out the true Church , and rest in her judgment . Ad sapientiam , says S. Augustine , in Ecclesia Spirituales pauci perveniunt ; caeteram vero turbam non intelligendi vivacitas , sed credendi simplicitas tutissimam facit ; that is , few , even Spiritual ones in the Church attain to perfect knowledge , the rest being made most sure , not by their quickness in understanding , but by their simplicity in believing . 2. This the Protestants way is but a trifling loosing of time , never having been found able to settle debates amongst themselves , as witness 60. Synods holden in 60. years time , says Rescius l. de Atheismo , in which all taking Scripture for their ground , without any Infallible Judge , did so little agree , that they parted not so much as good friends . Neque dantes dextras fraternitatis aut humanitatis . How many Examples of this amongst Lutherans , and Calvinists , Prelaticks , and Presbyterians , and even in our confessions of Faith , and Covenant among our selves ? I know M. Menzeis Answer will be , their Dissentions are not in Fundamentals , ( of these I shall speak presently in the next Section ) only here I ask , why then so great cruelty , so much bloud , so many Excommunications and Curses ? If they did not think them so , who moved such troubles , they were either most cruel , or mad , as Tertullian , l. de praescr . most truly says , in Disputing out of Texts of Scripture ( that is as every man reads and understands ) there is no other good got but either to make a man sick or mad . It is not so in the Catholick Church , what ever M. Menzeis says of Jesuits and Dominicans , neither party having ever contested in any thing , that was once decided by the Church . 3. The Protestants way is Preposterous , Religion being Established before the Scriptures , and they only written to true believers , whence Tertullian prescribing against all Hereticks , says , We do not admit them to dispute from Scripture , till first they can show who their Ancestors were ; from whom , by whom , when and to whom , the form of Christian Religion was delivered . Whereupon to conclude all this , I ask at M. Menzeis , is every particular man amongst Protestants infallibly assured by Scripture of what he believes ? If so , why not then Catholicks , and all the Catholick Church ? they receive the Scriptures with Protestants , yea Protestants only from them : their Churchmen read the Scriptures with as great diligence , they be in a far greater number , they have ten for one who have Expouded it ; they apply no less all the means for a right Interpretation , they study the Originals , confer Places , pray many hours both day and night , have no Wives , Children , or Family to divert them , most of them have renounced all pretence to Riches , Honours , and all Temporal Interests , wherewith they might be Byassed any wise in what they profess : The extraordinary and unparallelled pains they take in the most Barren , Savage , and cruel nations of the Earth , for their conversion to Christianity would seem sufficient to evidence both the good disposition of their minds , and the sincere intention of their hearts , beyond the Preachers , of whatsoever Sect : Their manifold Writings witness enough the solidity and quickness of their wits ; and even their Wonders and Mracles in latter ages , in all most Authentick Records of History , would make believe they want not the assistance of the the Spirit , yea , and of the power of God ; and yet that we should think that they are blinded , Protestants see clear ; they mistake Scripture , Protestants take it aright ; they are misled by the Spirit of Errour , Protestants directed by the Spirit of Truth ; what Reason , Proof , or Probability for this ? But why do Protestants pretend it is so ? Forsooth chiefly , because they acknowledge one high Bishop in the whole Church , as Protestants a primate in each Kingdom , with the Negative voice to silence all private sowers of Dissention , and keep unity ; because they take the Canons and Rules of their Faith from Scripture explained in general Councils , and the Unanimous consent of the Church and Fathers , and not by private Reading ; because in a word they reverence Publick Authority establisht by God in his Church , above particular Opinions and Conceits . Why then should Scripture be called a Ground to Protestants , who neither did receive it from Christ and his Apostles ( as all Historians , and Chronologues marking the rise of Protestancy in Luther his dayes do evidence ) nor have it uncorrupt , as their own Doctors , and Ghospellers do acknowledge : Nor take it in the true sense upon publick Authority , but as they fancy upon private Reading , and Interpretation against the Apostle ? And not rather to Catholicks , who having received the Scriptures from Christ and his Apostles , as the Word of God , left to his Church , which she is bound to have an Eye to in all her Decisions , Statutes , and Laws ; so that none of them be Repugnant to it in the least , neither by adding or pairing in Words or Sense , but all fully consonant and conform to both : In acknowledgement whereof , in all her General Councils , she placeth it above Pope , Prelates , Pastors , who in all the search they make into former Councels , Fathers , Schoolmen , Tradition or practice of the Church , intend nothing else ( generally speaking ) then to find out by all possible diligence , the true sense and meaning of what is taught us in General and Particular Terms in the Written Word . Yet Protestants with all Hereticks most vainly bragg of Scripture as their Ground , and Catholicks be calumniated to abandon it ; as if Loyal Subjects did less rely on the Acts of Parliament , and fun●●mental Laws , who receive them , their Sentence , and meaning from the lawful Judges establisht in the Kingdom ; then Out-laws and Rebels pretending to adhere immediately to them , as they themselves read , Think them clear , or expound . SECT . V. Scripture however clear in Fundamentals , clearly mistaken by Protestants , and clearly making against them . LEt us come at last to the Fundamental Points of the Protestant Religion , which Mr. Menzeis holds out to be clear in Scripture . Whereupon his Adversary demands , what things he esteems Fundamental ? He Answers , to ask a Catalogue of Fundamentals , is to ask how to make a Coat to the Moon in all her changes . And this his quick Reply he borrows , from a learned Divine , as he calls him , ( Mr. Chillingworth is the man , as I conceive , for he has the same words , a meer Sceptick in Religion , and who takes away all certainty in Faith ) and to say true , the Protestant Religion is so Obnoxious to Reformations , Alterations , Innovations , that it is most fitly compared by him to the Moon in all her changes . Yea Protestants are of so different Opinions , even in what they call Fundamentals , that scarce two set down the same , Perkins in Cath. Reform . p. 407. and in his Exposition of the Creed , p. 503. will have all Fundamentals included in the Apostles Creed . Duplessis in his Treatise of the Church , C. 5. in the Decalogue . Du Moulin , after Melancton in C. 4. Matt. the Creed and Decalogue . Luther Tom. 7. in Enchir. f. 118. in the Creed , Decalogue , and Lords Prayer . Whitaker Contr. 1. q. 4. p. 340. in the Creed , Lords Prayer , and Sacraments . Sadeel Praef. Resp . ad Turr. to believe Christ crucified , and the Pope to be Antichrist . Chillingworth in his Treatise Intituled , the Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation , p. 408. n. 35. says plainly , Protestants do not agree , touching what Points are Fundamental , and page 166 , we know not precisely , just how much is Funtamental : Again page 23. he that will go about to distinguish what was written , because it was profitable , from what was written , because necessary , shall find an intricate business of it , and almost impossible , that he should be certain , he hath done it , when he hath done it . Wherefore he says in the same page , n. 27. that Protestants give not a Catalogue of Fundamentals , it is not from Tergiversation , but from Wisdom and Necessity , and when they had done it , it had been to no purpose , there being , as matters now stand , as great necessity of believing those Truths of Scripture , which are not Fundamental , as those that are . And yet other Protestants with M. Menzeis , harp upon nothing more then the Distinction of Fundamentals from not Fundamentals , as if those were necessarily believed , these not . I know in other places of the same Treatise , this Author contradicts himself , which shews not only Protestants disagree in Fundamentals , one from another , but even the same man from himself ; so well grounded they are in these their Fundamentals and Grounds , wherein , notwithstanding their monstrous Divisions , they vainly bragg to agree . But how can it be discerned , whether all Protestants , or a few agree in Fundamentals , unless it be precisely known , what and how many Fundamentals there be ? Potter , in fine , extends the number of Fundamentals beyond all his Brethren have said ; his words are , page 24. it is Fundamental to a Christians Faith , and necessary for his salvation , that he believe all revealed Truths of God , whereof he may be convinced they are of God. And doth not this diversity of Opinions equal the changes of the Moon ? Or is not all this a most clear and manifest Demonstration , however Scripture be clear in Fundamentals ( which now I do not dispute ) at least it is not so even to the Learnedst and most sharp sighted Protestants , who so little agree in that Point , that scarce two are of the same Judgment and Mind . If others did thus mistake what is perspicuous in Scripture , Mr. Menzeis would presently tell us , no wonder they do so , by reason of their evil disposed intellect . But that Protestants , and these not of the Vulgar sort , but even the Pillars of their Religion , and Defenders of their Faith , by Volumes in Print , should not see what in Scripture is most clear , but so vary and divide in such a multiplicity of Opinions , and yet maintain Scripture in these same things , wehrein they so vary , is clear , what a wonderful thing is this ? Or who I pray you , can trust men , both at once saying Scripture is clear in Fundamentals , and yet setting down the same Fundamentals diversly ? By this plainly confessing either their own blindness , and so that they are not good Guides , nor to be believed , when they speak of what in Scripture is clear , or else that their Doctrine in this is false . What M. Menzeis holds Fundamental , so great a secret it is , that neither will he tell us himself , nor can any other know it , he having so often changed House , and built upon diverse Grounds . Yet that he should not seem to say nothing , a mark he gives us , to know what in Scripture is Fundamental , to wit , if we find it commanded to be believed by all , or a Character of necessity to be put upon it . Whereupon I reflect first M. Menzeis Doctrine is here very Incoherent , for both he teaches , it is commanded in Scripture all men believe Fundamentals , as things absolutely necessary to salvation ; and nevertheless the Catalogue of these same things , he will have impossible , as a Coat to the Moon . Would not this argue he is ignorant himself , of what all should know and believe ? Otherwise surely , he should never have judged this Catalogue impossible , it being easie to a man to call to memory what he knows , yea we know no more then we can call to memory , says the Roman Orator , Tantum scimus , quantum memoriâ tenemus . Secondly , I reflect , that rejecting the Infallible Authority of the Church , teaching every particular person what is Fundamental , and what we must necessarily know , and explicitely believe to attain salvation ; & pretending all this is clear , and may be found , by the marks he has given in Scripture ; he remaines obliged to a very hard task . 1. To prove in General , from evident and clear Scripture , that all things necessary to be believed are clear and evident in Scripture . Let him answer then , First where he reads this , and to the Fathers teaching the contrary as we shall see below . 2. To prove every Fundamental Point in particular immediately , and clearly from Scripture : And this so , that the words cannot be taken obviously and literally in any other sense . For if they can be so taken , then I have no Infallible Evidence but they should be so taken , without some Infallible Guide , telling me they should not be so taken in the place alledged . As for example , these words , This is my Body , undoubtedly may at least signifie , and that most Obviously and Litterally , that Christs Body is really in the Sacrament , as when I say , this is a piece of Gold , this a piece of Silver , these words litterally signifie real Gold and Silver : Wherefore , if I will take the words Figuratively , as clearly so spoken in Scripture , some other place of Scripture must be brought , or some other Infallible Authority , telling me this in express words , otherwise I cannot have that certainty of it , which is required in Divine Faith. 3. Amongst all the clear places in Scripture , to pick out the Fundamental ones , how hard is it for every one ? Not to say Morally impossible , M. Menzeis himself granting he cannot do it , more then make a Coat to the Moon . For by this means all should be obliged to know all Texts of Scripture , and then to examine diligently each one , first , whether it be evident or obscure , least it should appear upon examination to be evident , which at the first sight did not seem so . And secondly , Whether it be generally commanded , and have a Character of necessity to be believed by all , for then according to M. Menzeis Rule , I know it to be a Fundamental , but Chillingworth , his learned Divine , tells him a little above , to distinguish what was written because it was profitable , from what was written , because necessary , is an intricate piece of business . S. Paul to the Heb. 2. C. 6. V. requires no more as necessary ( as would seem ) then that he who cometh to God , believe , he is , and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him . S. John 3. Ch. 6. says , he that believeth in the Son , hath everlasting life ; the Prophet Royal , that all who fear the Lord are blessed ; and many other such passages there be in Scripture , which might make a ●●n think one thing or two at most were necessary to Salvation , as sometimes the believing of one Point , sometimes the doing of one good action ; Heaven is promised to Prayer in one place , full Remission of sins to Alms deeds in another , &c. and yet who will say either of these two is sufficient for working a mans Salvation ? Add to all this , I find in Scripture , If thou wilt enter into life , keep the Commandments , S. Matth. 19. Yet Protestants teach that to be impossible , and consequenly this Fundamental must lead all to despair , as that other make all to presume ; it being a Fundamental again amongst Protestants , that every man should believe he is one of the Elect , which being an Article of his Faith , may reasonably secure him , and yet all not being of this number , some from this Fundamental must or should at least presumptuously believe a lye . Further the eating of blood and strangled meat , is generally forbidden by the Apostles , to all the Gentiles converted to the Christian Faith , as it was before to the Jews , whence I infer ; what is generally commanded to all , should generally be believed by all ; and so if M. Menzeis Rule be good , this must come in amongst the Fundamentals of the Protestant Religion ; which if it be so in the Pulpit I know not , but at Table I am sure it is not . A hundred such absurdities follow , upon seeking Fundamentals in Scripture , by these deceiving signes and uncertain marks M. Menzeis gives us , without any Infallible Guide . 2. It is to be remarked , that Protestants neither agree in setting down Fundamentals , nor cannot give a precise Catalogue of Points of Faith , they think to be Fundamental , as was required of M. Menzies ; but that also they mistake the very Notion and name : A Fundamental verity in the Christian Religion , being either that which makes us believe all the rest , or without the express knowledge and belief whereof , none can be saved . Now the Question amongst us , is not about this ; but whether a Man may either suspend his assent , or positively dissent , from lesser things then these , when they are revealed by God , and propounded to him by the same Authority with the former . For then say Catholicks he is equally obliged to believe them , by reason of the form●● Object , which is Divine Revelation , & can in nothing deceive , or should in any thing be called in question , though in respect of the Material Object or thing revealed , we be not so obliged to know it . For there is nothing less or more certain when God speaks , he being the first verity , yea verity it self , who delivers all he says with one and the same Infinite Certainty , where no degrees , of more or less certitude can have place . Protestants it would seem , as they take Fundamentals , will not be tyed to this , whence they receive in communion with them , and as the true Members of their Church , some who hold most contrary Tenets , as M. Menzeis , the Waldenses , Wickliffians , Hussists , who in his seventh Paper grants the whole body of the Church collectively taken , cannot err in Essentials or Fundamentals , yet so as that in some whole ages the Integrals may be vitiated . But if he understand by Integrals lesser Points of Faith , as to their Object and Matter , yet equally revealed by God , and propounded by his Church to us , with chief Mysteries , ( wherein the Protestants mistake , and Errour in their Distinction of Fundamentals and Integrals consists ) his Assertion is both Erroneous & Heretical , because an Act of Faith grounded on the Motive of Gods Infinite and infallible Veracity in revealing , is a Vertual and Implicite Belief of all he has revealed , so that the true Belief of one Article , implyes a belief of all . Wherefore S. Athanasius says in his Creed , whosoever doth not hold the Catholick Faith whole and inviolate , he shall perish for ever . And S. Hierome l. 3. contr . Ruff. for one word or two contrary to the Faith , many Hereticks have been cast out of the Church . Yea , S. Gregory Naz. tract . de fide , says , nothing can be more dangerous then those Hereticks , who when they run through all things uprightly , yet with one word , as with a drop of poyson corrupts the true and sincere Faith of our Lord , and of Apostolical Tradition . S. Basil as Theodoret reports l. 4. Hist . c. 6. being desired to relent a little to the time , Answered , That such as were instructed in the Divine Doctrine , do not suffer any Syllable to be corrupt , but for its defence if need require , willingly imbrace any kind of death . And the Church in her Publick Decrees of General Councils strikes with the Thunder bolt of Gods Curse and Excommunication all such as refuse to believe any one Point decided to be of Faith ; which she could not justly do , if every Article she declares were not necessarily believed , when known to be decided by her . So doth the Church of England Excommunicate all who hold any thing contrary to the 39. Articles , though they judg them not all Fundamental . As the Athenians punished without remission the least word against the received opinion of their Gods , and the Jews ( says Joseph contra Appion . ) the least transgression of the Law. So God threatneth that he shall be blotted out of the Book of Life , who ever shall deminish any word of the Revelation , Apoc. 22. v. 19. Yet Luther rejecting whole Epistles of Scripture , in M. Menzeis Book is called a holy man ; but so speaketh not Luther of him denying the Real Presence , who in his Book against the Sacramentarians , says plainly , They believe in God the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost in vain , all these things avail them nothing , for as much as they deny , this Article of the Real Presence , and attach him of falshood , who said of the Sacrament , This is my Body . And he had reason , for St. Thomas 2.2 . q. 5. a 3. with other Divines teach he has no Spiritual Faith , who believeth not every thing little or great , Fundamental or not , Proposed to him by the same Authority . Whereupon they infer , that no Sectary upon his own choice adhering to this or that , believeth any thing . So Tertullian , l. de praesc . speaking against Valentine , says , some things of the Law and Prophets he approveth , some things not , that is , difalloweth all , whil'st he disproveth some . 3. From all this appeareth , how idlely this distinction of fundamntals , & not fundamentals in the Protestans sense was brought in by them , it serving to no other purpose , then to palliate their divisions at present , & deceive Ignorants in the pretended succession , they claim to in old condemn'd Hereticks , whose Errors they will have to be no Fundamentals . As M. Menzeis taking Hierome of Prague , John Huss , Wickcliff , the Waldenses , and Grecians , for true Protestants , before Luther , to make up an imaginary Succession in the Protestant Church : which to do with any apparent shew of Truth . 1. He should prove those Sects to have been the Catholick Church spread through the whole world , and owned as such by the Fathers of those times . 2. Justifie their Doctrine , which we find partly in their own Writings , partly in the most Authentick Records of the Ages wherein they lived , to have been in many things most false , erroneous , and unchristian . 3. Their succession from the Apostles times , finding their Bishops and Pastors in the Registers of the Church History or Fathers . Neither will he make this good by the Authority of Friar Reiner , who speaking of the Waldenses , whom he names Lionists , says at most ( even as Illiricus quotes his words ) some affirm they have been from the time of Pope Sylvester , others from the dayes of the Apostles . ( M. Menzeis to make the Argument stronger , will have Friar Reiner to say absolutely they were from the time of the Apostles , with his ordinary ingenuity ▪ ) but what I pray you concludes he from this ? Those who said so , being Lionists themselves , as witnesseth Pili●hdorphius . So a little before Waldo , there arose Hereticks who falsly bragged of the same , even as after them Protestants do now . But if you or they either sir , were in all ages from the Apostles , tell us the Authours in every age who marked the succession of your Pastors , where lived your people , &c. & then refute the great number of learned Writers , who lived when such Sects did start up in a suddain , as a Mushrome in a night , marking their Rise , and noting their Errours , which certainly they had never done , if such Doctrine had been professed before , as that of the true and visible Church . But to speak a word in particular of every one of those Sects ; with what ignorance and falshood M. Menzeis calls them true Protestants , you shall presently see . And first in John Huss , to whose name , I am sure , he has a more just claim then to his Religion , if we trust all the most Authentick Records of Huss his Doctrine . I cite not for this the Juridick Acts of the Council at Constance , because Popish ; not Father Gordon of Huntley , no less eminent for his Learning then Birth , because a Jesuit , though living in Prague in Boheme , where Hussits most abound , and having made most diligent enquiry of their Tenents , he found as he witnesseth , Cont. 3. de Euch. c. 17. they did hold Invocation of Saints , Prayer for the dead , the Fastings and Ceremonies of the Catholick Church with free will , confession of Sins , seven Sacraments , &c. But I hope he will trust Fox , a most firy Protestant speaking thus upon the 2. Ch. of the Revelation . What did Huss at any time teach or defend in the Council , wherein he did not seem superstitiously to consent with the Papists ? what did the Popish Faith decree concerning Transubstantiation ; which he likewise with the Papists did not confirm ? who celebrated Mass more Religiously then he ? or more Religiously observed the Vows of Priestly Chastity ? Concerning Free Will , Predestination , informed Faith , ( that is without Charity ) the cause of Justification , and merit of good Works , what other thing did he hold , then is taught at Rome ? All this he , and more in his Monuments , that he did acknowledge seven Sacraments ▪ and the Popes Supremacy , p. 216. and 227. And if he should as yet disown Fox as a private Writer , yet must he trust Luther as a man extraordinarily sent by God to Reform the Church , and the 14. Apostle : The Papists burned Huss , says he , ( Colloq . Germ. C. de Antich ▪ ) when as yet he departed not a fingers breadth from the Papacy , for he taught the same which the Papists do , only he found fault with their Vices , against the Pope he did nothing . To the same purpose Luther has much more , Tom. 2. in Assert . art . 30. and Tom. 3. in Ps . 2. But in fine , should not Huss himself be trusted better then any , his works are extant , and perusing them , you shall find he did hold seven Sacraments upon the fifth of S. James ; Transubstantiation in his Book of the Lords Supper , Ch. 2. and 3. the Sacrifice of the Mass in his Sermon of Funerals ; Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead in the same place , confession of sins to a Priest in his Treatise of pennance , invocation of Saints in his Epistles 22.30.35 . Veneration of Relicks upon Ps . 115. yea in his question of believing , the Popes Supremacie as to his office , dignity and power : though with this Caveat , common to him with Wicliff , that ecclesiastical dignity , as well as Civil , was grounded on Inherent Justice , and so lost by Mortal Sin , which neither Catholicks nor Protestants do teach : Nevertheless M. Menzeis is not ashamed to own Huss for a Protestant , so constant is he in professing his Fundamentals , which he will have to be in Scripture so clear . I insist not so much on the rest , yet to say a little of every one . Of Hierome of Prague ; Fox . pag. 585. relateth whatever was his Opinion in other things , yet stood he constantly in defence of the real Presence , and Transubstantiation , saying , he did give more credit to S. Augustine , and other Doctors of the Church ( who affirmed the same ) then to any that denyed it . Wikcliff again M. Menzeis is not ashamed to call a Protestant , who in his own Writings so expresly holds against them . 1. Worship of Images in his 9. Ch. of the Eucharist , Images , says he , we adore purely as signs , but God we must adore with all our power : It is therefore granted , that Relicks , Images , and the Sacraments be with prudence to be adored . He did also hold Invocation of Saints in his Sermon of the Assumption into Heaven of our blessed Lady , Auricular confession on the 5. Ch. of James , seven Sacraments in his Postscript on the first Ep. and 1. Ch. to the Corinths . Wherefore Melancton Ep. ad Micon . thus censures him , I have read Wickliff and found in him many Errors , he never held nor understood Justice of Faith , which is the Protestants main Fundamental . With the same confidence M. Menzeis calls the Waldenses Protestants , who held the Real Presence , that the Apostles were but Lay-men , that all Magistrates fall from their Dignity by mortal sin , that it is not lawful to swear in any case , &c. as witnesseth Illyricus in Catal. Wald. Confess . Bohem. &c. And with these the Grecians upon a private Letter sent ( as he pretends ) by a Patriarch to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury ; though all who ever conversed with Grecians know , they say daily Mass , hold Transubstantiation , seven Sacraments , Prayer to the Saints , and for the dead , &c. as all may see in the censure of the Oriental or Grecian Church ; and deny the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , and consequently make no distinction betwixt these two Persons in the Godhead . But it is enough to M. Menzeis it seems , that they disown the Pope , to be called Protestants , and so Turks and Tartars may come in with them . Whence I leave to judg how constant a Protestant M. Menzeis is , owning such Doctors and Doctrine , and what Credit again he deserves , after so many clear Testimonies , and that even of learned Protestants , and the very writings of the persons in question , convincing him of most notorious falshood and Errour . The most antient and holy Fathers , as S. Ireneus Tertullian , Philastrius , S. Epiphanius , S. Augustine , Theodoret , S. John Damascen , and others , who have written a Catalogue of Heresies , did not certainly distinguish Fundamentals and Integrals amongst Divine Truths , sufficiently propounded , as Protestants do , when they condemned many lesser things as Heresies , and consequently damnable Errours , then what they think to have no repugnancy with Fundamentals and essentials in the Doctrine of the true Church ; as in the Pelagians , Novatians , Donatists , Monothelits , who all embraced the Trinity , Incarnation , Passion of Christ , &c. S. Epiphanius , Heres . 75. and S. Augustine , l. de heres . C. 33. condemn the Arians for denying the Fasts commanded by the Church , the first remarking , they were accustomed to eat flesh on Fridays , and in the Lent , yea chiefly in the holy Week wherein Christ died . S. Hierome in his 2. book against Jovinian condemneth him , for saying Fastings , and all other Exercises of good works , were not meritorious : S. Augustine in his Book of Heresies , c. 54. condemns the Eunomians for teaching no sin could hurt a man , if so he had but only Faith ▪ S. Epiphanius haeres . 64. all who denied free will : S. Hierome , Vigilantius , in his Book against him for affirming the Relicks of the Saints ought not to be reverenced : the same S. Hierome against Jovinian with S. Augustine in his Book of Heresies , C. 82. condemn him , for holding Wedlock , equal in dignity and merit to virginity . S. Augustine again l. Contr. Julian . C. 2. the Pelagians for teaching the Children of the Faithful Parents did not need Baptism , but were born holy , and in his 1. Book 2. C. and last against Maximus , the Arians for not receiving Traditions . Now let M. Menzeis choose either to acknowledge all these , and many such like condemned Heresies by the Fathers to be no Fundamentals , and consequently that many other things then these which Protestants call Fundamentals , are necessary to be believed under the danger of incurring Heresie and E●ternal damnation : or owning them as such , let him confess , Protestants Err even in Fundamentals with them , seeing all here condemned is Protestant Doctrine , borrowed from those more ancient Hereticks , and condemned by the Fathers even then . 4. As to that he says all Fundamentals are clear in Scripture , and that according to S. Chrysostome , S. Augustine , S. Irenaeus , S. Thomas of Aquine , and Sixtus Senensis , holding what ever is obscure in one place , to be clear in some other . I answer , very easily with a manifold distinction , 1. To such eminent Doctors of the Church , as he cites , most Scriptures are clear I grant , to all indifferently I deny . 2. To such as take the places of Scripture commanding us to hear the Church ; and hold fast the Traditions of the Apostles conserved in her , as two main Fundamentals , for clearing all the rest , I grant , to others I deny . 3. With Vincentius Lyrinensis c. 2. to such as level the Line of Prophetical and Apostolical interpretation , to the square of the Ecclesiastical and Catholick sense I grant , to others I deny . 4. With Doctor Field a Protestant in his 4. Book C. 14. to such as be first setled in those things which the Apostles presupposed in their delivery of Scriptures , I grant , to others I deny . Neither are these my Distinctions any wise to shift the Argument , which maketh nothing either against us , or for him . But to clear the Fathers words in the very genuine sense they speak them . See S. Chrysostome his meaning in his 14. Hom. on S. John. S. Augustines contra Cresconium . C. 33. where he says , if any one fear to be deceived in this question , through its obscurity , let him ask Councel of the Church , which the holy Scriptures do demonsrate without any ambiguity . That of S. Irenaeus in his 2. Book Ch. 47. and more expresly in his 1. Book Ch. 49. S. Thomas his words , That what ever is necessary to be believed under the Spiritual Sense , that some where is manifestly declared by the Letter , as they do not specifie to whom this manifest declaration is made , so we grant it to the Church and her Doctors , for to her all things are known , says St. Irenaeus in which is perfect Faith ; as to the Apostles it was given by our Saviour Christ to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven , 5. But I would ask M. Menzeis did ever any of these Fathers receive the Scriptures as the undoubted Word of God , otherwise then on the Churches Authority ? S. Augustine saying , I would not believe the Scriptures , if the Authority of the Church did not move me to it , is no less clear for this , then Scripture it self in Fundamentals . Or did ever any of them fancy to himself a place of Scripture , as clear for any thing , the whole Church standing in a contrary Judgment ? For this is the only Point we debate with Protestants , and clearly prove both by the Scriptures and Fathers against them . 6. However Scripture be clear in Fundamentals , in the sense I have given , that is particularly , and in as many words , or generally , and as commanding us to hear the Church , yet surely it doth not set down all that is Fundamental in express terms , if we trust the Fathers , whom M. Menzeis appeals to , as holding Scripture clear in Fundamentals ; or can all be so evidently deduced from scripture , but by the Authority of the Church , that Hereticks be silenced , and Unity preserved in Faith. S. Chrysostome on 2 Thes . 2. says it is evident that the Apostles did not deliver all things by Writing , but many things without , and those be as worthy of credit as others . Which he could not have said , if Fundamentals were only the infallible Truths , and they clearly revealed in Scripture . S. Epiphanius , Heres . 61. we must use Traditions , for the Scriptures have not all things ; yet no necessity of using Traditions , if all Fundamentals were in Scripture , they only being necessary according to Protestants . S. Augustine l. 5. de Bapt. Contr. Donat . Ch. 23. the custome of the Church in baptizing Infants , is neither to be contemned , or any wise thought superfluous , yet not to be believed if it were not an Apostolical Tradition . If this was not in his Judgment , a Fundamental , hear himself again , l. 3. de Orig. Anim. C 9. if thou will be a Catholick , believe not , teach not , say not , that Infants prevented by death before they are baptized , can come to the pardon of their Original sin . Is it not a Fundamental to believe Scripture to be the Word of God , which S. Augustine takes on Tradition ? What if a man should receive the New Testament as sufficiently containing Fundamentals , and reject the Old with the Manichees ? admit of some of the Evangels , but not others with the Ebionits ? What if one should deny the word Person , the name and definition of a Sacrament , the keeping of Sunday , because not clear in Scripture , and consequently no Fundamentals according to M. Menzeis Rule . Marcion , and with him the Anabaptists , teach Baptism should be conferred more then once . The Donatists , that Baptisme of Hereticks , at least should be reiterated . Sabellius , one only Person in the Godhead . Nestorius , two Persons in Christ , and for this are accounted Hereticks ; yet no clear Scripture is brought condemning their Errours . S. Augustine l. de unitate Eccl. says expresly of the Donatists Errour , this neither you nor I read in express words . 7. How many Scriptures are clear against Protestants in all controverted Tenets ? So that however it be clear in Fundamentals , it clearly speaketh against them . See for this the Touchstone of the Reformed Gospel ; with the Manual of Controversie , and after you have pondered the places quoted in them , judge whether the Protestant Religion be rightly defined by M. Menzeis , The Christian Religion as contained in Scripture , and their protestancy , only their protesting against Popish Errours . Which Definition if good , having its Genus proximum & differentiam ultimam , should distinguish Protestants from all other Sectaries ; but this it doth not , it being common to them with most Hereticks , who have ever been : all of them professing with you Sir , to adhere to the written Word they received , and as understood by themselves , as the Arians , Nestorians , Pelagians , Photinians , &c. and all protesting against the Churches Errours , and Popes Authority . For as the sole Roman Church did ever oppose all Hereticks , as the only zealous Defender of the true Faith and Doctrine , which S. Paul calls the Depositum entrusted to her ; So all generally how soon they turn Hereticks , Protest , prattle , Preach chieflly against her ; turn over all the Writings of Authours , who have made mention of Heresies , and you shall find that all from the first to the last have opposed themselves to that company of Christians , which was in communion with the Pope and Bishop of Rome for the time ; and that this company hath opposed it self to them all , neither did they oppose themselves all to any other company whatsoever . Yea this was ever the distinctive mark of Hereticks , not to communicate with the Pope and Sea of Rome ; as may be seen in the Writings of the Fathers . St. Irenaeus l. 3. C. 3. S. Hierome Ep. 57. S. Cyprian , in his Epistle to Pope Cornelius , S. Augustine in Ps . Contr. part . Don. and generally in all ages , and by all , so that you protesting with them against the Church and Pope , take their very Badg and Livery , and shamefully declare by this Charactaristick Mark of your Defection , from the ever acknowledged true Church , and high Bishop thereof , by all the Fathers , your Apostacy , Heresie , and Schism . It is very plausible I must confess to poor Ignorants , when Preachers make them believe they teach nothing , save only the pure Scripture and written Word , protesting against all unwritten Traditions as Popish Errours . But if any man consider a little with himself your Tenets in particular , he shall presently find , it is openly against God , and his written Word ye protest , in all points of Controversie , under the false pretence of protesting against Popery ; and that not so much as one Tenet peculiar to you is contained in Scripture . This I evidence in most Articles of Popish Doctrine you protest against , where all may see and judge how well your Religion is contained in Scripture . Is it not to protest against the goodness of God to say with you , he created some for Hell independently , of their works , and likewise against his Word , 1 ▪ Tim. 2. where it is said , he will have all to be saved , and in the 2. Ep. of St. Peter 3. where he is declared not willing any should perish . Is it not to protest against his Mercy , and express word again , to say he died not for all ? The Apostle S. Paul , assuring he did die for all , and as that in Adam all died , so in Christ all be restored to life , 1 Cor. 13. Is it not to protest against his Justice and Word , to teach that he punisheth us for what we cannot do , as for the want of good Works , which Protestants will have not to be in our power . Yet the Apostle says , Heb. 6.10 . God is not unjust that he should forget our work . Is it not to protest against the Wisdom and Word of God , to say he obliges us to perform things impossible , as Protestants call the Commandements ? where as Saint John in 1 Ep. C. 5. says they are not so much as heavy . Is it not to protest against his Veracity and Word , to affirm that the Church can teach Errours , and stand in need of Reformation ; Christ having commanded us to hear it , in S. Matt. 18. and the Apostle S. Paul 1 Tim. 3. calling it the Pillar and Ground of Truth . Is it not to protest against his Providence and Word , to assert that he has given us the dead Letter of the Law , ( without an Infallible Visible Judge , leaving to every poor Ignorant to Interpret Scripture according to his fancy , S. Peter , having said , no Scripture is of private interpretation , and Christ having commanded us to hear his Church . Is it not to protest against the Efficacy of Christs Mediation , Sufferings , Death , and also his Word , to hold that he hath freed us from the pain , but not from the guilt of sin . S. Joh. 1. Rev. 5. Saying he washed us from our sins in his own blood . And S. Paul , 1 Cor. 6. we are Washed , justified , Sanctified . Is it not to protest against his Divine Order , to tye our Sanctification to Faith only , and his express word in S. James 2.24 . Ye see then how that by Works a man is justified , and not by Faith only . Is it not to protest against his Divine Appointment again and his Word , to teach that good Works done in his Grace , and by his Grace , merit nothing ? when through all the Scripture Heaven is promised as a reward to our Works , and in St. Matth. 10. It is said , Christ shall render to every one according to his Works . Is it not to protest against his Divine Authority and Word , to deny the Real Presence ? All the Evangelists speaking so clearly , This is my Body , this is my Blood. Is it not to protest against his express Command and Word , to forbid Images as Idols ? He having ordered two Cherubims to be set on the Ark of the Covenant , Exod. 25. Is it not to protest against his own Practice and Word , to deny we should honour his Saints , whom God himself Honours , yea , and glorifies . Them that honour me , I will honour , 1 Reg. 2.30 . Is it not to protest against his Dispensation and Word , to deny the Power given to his Apostles and their Successours to forgive sins ? he having said in S. John 20.23 . Whose sins ye shall forgive , they are forgiven . Is it not to protest against the Satisfaction which his Justice requires for our sins , even after the guilt is forgiven , to deny Purgatory ? The Scripture witnessing that he did exact satisfaction of David , and many holy penitent sinners after he had forgiven their sins . And S. Paul ▪ 1 Cor. 3. If any ones work burn , he shall suffer loss , but himself shall be saved , yet so as by fire ; where we have clearly a purging , and punishing , yet saving fire . Is it not to protest against Christs Eternal Priesthood , according to the order of Melchisedech , Ps . 109. and S. Paul , Hebr. 5. to reject the unbloody and unspotted Sacrifice of the Mass , which the Prophet Malachy 1. C. 10. V. calls a clean Oblation to be offered amongst the Gentiles , from the rising of the Sun , even to the setting , and that in every place . Is it not to protest against all God commands us and his Word ? to take away free Will in obeying , Deut. 30.19 . I have set before you life and death , chuse . To conclude , what Point is there in all the Catholick Faith , which Protestants protest against , which is not either Directly against Gods Divine Attributes , Christs Mediation , and Dispensation , his Churches Authority , his Saints , and Servants honour , some part of Christian duty , belief , or life , or generally not against his express written Word , as it is plain in it self , or expounded , by the unanimous consent of the Fathers ? And yet so impudently bold is this spirit of Heresie , as to dare say , that that is contained in Scripture , which Scripture most evidently contradicts ; that is only in opposition to Popish Errours , which impugnes the very Fundamental , and most substantial Verities of the Gospel and Christian Faith ; that by the pure and uncorrupted word , it will reform the Church , when corrupting the Word , and correcting the Church as subject to failings and Errours in Religion , it ruinateth both Church and Word . What has been said in this , and the former Section , further instanced in two Particular Controverted Points ; The Real Presence , and two Sacraments . THE Protestant Religion is , The Christian Religion as contained in Scripture : Sole Scripture is their Ground , and in it all Fundamentals are clear ; Says M. Menzeis . How false all this is in general , doth evidently I hope appear , by what I have said above . Here I instance only further two particular Points , he handles at length , the better to make see the falshood of his strong and bold Assertions , in the weakness and nullity of his Proofs . And this first in his refuting one of our chief Tenets , viz. The Real Presence , then in maintaining one of his own , to wit , That there are two Sacraments , and no more . 1. Then to prove Christs body is not really in the Sacrament , these most clear words , This is my body ; must not , says he , be taken in the literal sense , but Figuratively : why so , doth the Scripture say this ? no , no Scripture is brought . What then ? a Philosophical Demonstration as he pretends . The word this , in the literal sense is inexplicable , and the Proposition implyeth a contradiction , ergo , &c. But why the Pronoun this inexplicable , because let Romanists strain their wits , Answers M. Menzeis ; and squeeze their Authors , they cannot tell what it can signifie , whether the Bread , Body , or something indeterminately . Who would not laugh here to see Mr. Menzeis , a professor of Divinity take such a weak Argument for a Demonstration ? most like in this to a certain Romantick Knight Errand call'd Don Quicsot , who imagining to himself a Windmil to be a Gyant , and then fighting with it , as with a Hector , he did both blunt his Sword , and batter his Reputation . For what , I pray you , doth the Pronone this signifie in any proportion , but Indeterminately , till it be determined to some particular thing , by the following words . So that let a man say a hundred times this , he determines nothing but by the ensuing words , as here This is my Body , makes a determinated sense , the last words determinating the first , which alone , and of it self signifies nothing determinately , and so to seek what it signifies determinately alone , and before the other words be pronounced , is to quibble and speak non-sense , by seeking a determinate Object under a word , which of its nature hath none . And this is the first part of his Demonstration for establishing , by a Logick Sophism , without any clear Scripture , a main Point of Religion . The second part of this Demonstration is , That it implyes a manifest contradiction , a true Affirmative Proposition , de praesenti , should produce its Object . Why this , because in the instant of Nature wherein the Proposition is conceiv'd before its Object , as the cause before its Effect : the Proposition should be true as is supposed , and not true , because the Object in that instant is not . The same Argument he urgeth in the instant of time wherein the Copula is pronounced , or Particle is , before the two last words . And for that Catholick Authours give many and diverse Solutions of this Argument , as the Custome is in the School , he will be satisfied with none . But because Mr. Menzeis is good at Retortions , I retort his Argument thus : Is not this a true Affirmative Proposition , de praesenti , which produces its Object in St. John 15. This is my command , that ye love one another . Now what difficulty in the former Proposition , either in the word this , or in the Instants of Nature and Time , or that a true affirmative Proposition make its own Object , which is not here ? do not these words make a new Command says Christ , as the former his body ? what if M. Menzeis could have brought an Axiome of Philosophy against the Real Presence ( as that Maxime , so commonly propounded and answered in the School , quae sunt eadem cum uno tertio sunt eadem inter se ) proving as would seem , that the three persons being Identified , and the same thing with the Godhead and Divine Nature , cannot be really distinguished one from another . Should a Christian bely Christ , who is the first Verity , upon pretence he speaketh against natural reason ? who will so reason with God ; let him hear S. Bernards most Excellent saying , Ep. 109. What is more against Reason , then that one should strive to go beyond Reason by force of Reason . But true it is , no Mystery of our Faith is against Reason , though some there be above the reach of Humane Weakness . Wherefore as the former Maxime , though much stronger , then what M. Menzeis here objects , is shown to have no repugnancy with the distinction of persons by our Divines ; So I easily answer him , the Proposition is true in the instant of Nature , the Object being only extant in the instant of Time wherein the Proposition is compleatly ended , because it affirmeth only its Object to be extant , in that instant of time , and not before . In that instant of Nature , wherein the Proposition precedes its Object , it affirms indeed the Object to be , but not for that instant , as I say truly this day what will be to morrow ; In instanti naturae vera est propositio , sed non pro instanti naturae , say they in the School . But M. Menzeis Argument if solid , would prove against all Phylosophy , there could be no Practick Knowledge , which hath no real Object , but what it makes to it self ; for that in such conceptions of the mind , the act of the understanding is ever prior to the Object , as its cause ; and so in that instant of priority ( if his Objection have place ) we shall have a knowledge of nothing , because in it the Object is not . Yea it should prove in all these places of Scripture , Let the Light be made , let the Firmament be made , young man I say unto thee rise ; I will , be thou healed , and in such like , the Omnipotent Word of God not to be effectual , if the words did not produce what they signifie , as these other words , This is my body . So that M. Menzeis here , taking this his trifling , & whimsical Sophism , for an unanswerable Argument , shews not only his weakness both in Phylosophy and Grammar , but also manifestly that Hereticks contradict Christs most clear words , and the Authority of his Church upon most insignificant and frivolous objections . And upon such trifling Sophisms shall any Christian refuse to believe , what Christ hath taught in so express terms ? what the Evangelists have so accurately set down in holy Writ : what the Fathers have confirmed in so many Volumes : what the Martyrs have subscribed with their blood : what the Church doth testifie by her Pastors and practise : what God hath sealed with so many Miracles and Wonders ; sometime appearing in the Consecrate Host in form of a man ; sometimes ( when it has been stabbed by Jews and Hereticks ) making it gush out in blood ; sometimes by its vertue , casting out Devils , or quenching fire , as so many Authentick Records , both of History and Fathers do witness . O boldness and impudence of Heresie so to cavil at Christs own words , and yet proudly pretend , pure Scripture is its only Ground ! 2. To instance how M. Menzeis again , from Scripture clear in Fundamentals , proves that Fundamental Tenet of Protestants , yea their proper and only Tenet ( all the rest being borrowed from old condemed Heresies , as we have seen . ) There be two Sacraments and no more . After a huge work in his last Paper , and a whole year spent , before the answer to this Query did appear , instead of clear Scripture ( which he was only desired to bring ) he gives the following discourse . 1. To clear the state of the Question , he says , know we do not affirm , that the word Sacrament is to be found in Scripture . 2. We understand by a Sacrament of the New Testament , a Substantial Visible Sign instituted by God , recorded in the Gospel , to Seal up the Promises of Salvation , which is to endure in the Church to the end of the world . 3. We do affirm in this sense , there be only two proper Sacraments in the New Testament , Baptisme and the Lords Supper . 4. Then coming to prove there be two Sacraments , and two only ; that there be two , he proves it thus , to Baptism and the Lords Supper , agree all the parts of the foresaid Description , for you have , says he , the Divine Institution of Baptizing with water , , Mat. 28.19 . and of the Lords Supper , 1 Cor. 11.23 , 24 , 25. That they are Seals of the promises of Salvation is no less clear : And first of Baptism , Act. 2.38 , 39. and also of the Lords Supper , in so much that the Cup is called the New Testament , which you must acknowledge to be no proper speech , but it is only so called , because it is , sigillum foederis ; hence also in the Institution , mention is made of the remission of sins , and of the giving of the Body of Christ , and sheding of his blood for us , holding forth that forgiveness of sins , and all other blessings , purchased by the Death of Christ , and promised in the new Covenant ; are by this Ordinance sealed to the people of God. And that these Ordinances are to continue to the end of the word , is no less manifest from Matt. 28.20 . and 1 Cor. 11.26 . In fine , he proves there be only two Sacraments , by this Argument , more cannot be produced out of Scripture , as shall be proved , solutione objectionum ergo , &c. Now to reflect how judiciously , and learnedly M. Menzeis here proves from Scripture there be two Sacraments , and two only . 1. He doth not affirm the Word Sacrament to be in Scripture . 2. Of all the Definition or Description he brings , not so much as one Particle is affirmed in Scripture to be Essential to a Sacrament : ( I do not dispute at present how much of it is true in it self , or granted by us ) I only desire it may be made clear from Scripture , as clearly containing all Fundamentals of the Protestant Religion , which is the only thing in question . But nothing is proved by him , save only that Baptism , and the Lords Supper are of Divine Institution , as many other things be , which are not Sacraments . To prove they are Seals of the promises of Salvation , he cites for Baptism , Act. 2.28 , 29. The words omitted by him , I hear set down . But Peter said to them , do pennance , and be every one of you Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of your sins , and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost : for to you is the promise , and to your children , and to all that are far off , whomsoever the Lord our God shall call . No word here Baptism is a Seal of the promises of Salvation . It is said indeed to be given for the Remission of sins , and that to whom it is given , they receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost , which both Protestants deny ; maintaining there is no virtue in Baptism to confer either of these Effects . It is said further , that to the Jews and their children , yea to all that God shall call , promise is made , but that Baptism is a Seal of the promise of Salvation , neither the Text , nor any consequence he draweth from it doth evince it . The way he proves from Scripture , the Lords Supper to be a Seal of the promises of Salvation , is rare ; for that says he , it is called the New Testament , which we must acknowledge to be no proper Speech , but to be only so called , because it is , Sigillum foederis . This is his Commentary on the Text ; but what a necessary and clear consequence is this ? If ever such a consequence as clearly deduced from Scripture was heard of , I leave it to the Reader to Judg ; So clearly are the Sacraments , and main Fundamentals of the Protestant Religion , contained in Scripture , or clearly deduced from it . But M. Menzeis thought it ( as it seems by his so long a digression in his last paper ) a more easie task to impugne our Sacraments ( though no part of the present work ) then to prove his own . No Scripture , Councils , or Fathers hold out seven Sacraments . Answer , yes Sir , both Scripture , Councels , Fathers do ; not as bare signs with you , but as visible or sensible signs of the invisible grace they produce in the Soul , as instituted by Christ our Lord , for our Sanctification . In this sense , there be seven Sacraments set down in the Gospel , Decreed by Counc●ls , approved by the Fathers . And 1 ▪ That the Fathers did so understand a Sacrament , is confessed by Protestants , who even dare censure the Fathers for this : As Musculus loc . comm . p. 299. did S. Augustine , for affirming inconsiderately , that the Sacraments of the New Testament give salvation ; Zwinglius , Tom. 2. de Bapt. fol. 70. All the Antient Doctors for supposing the water of Baptism to purge sin . The Century Writers , Cent. 2. C. 4. Col. 47. In particular censures , S. Clement Disciple of the Apostles , and Justin Martyr , for thinking Regeneration not only to be signified , but wrought by Baptism : and in the 3. Cent. C. 4. S. Cyprian , for teaching that the person Baptizing doth give Sanctity , and the Holy Ghost , to the Baptized . 2 That such a number of visible or sensible signs instituted by Christ , for conferring grace , and taking away sin , is set down in Scripture , is clear from the following Texts . For Baptisme , Acts 2.38 . Be every one of you baptized for the Remission of Sins . Ephes . 5.25 . Christ loved the Church , cleansing it by the Laver of Water . For Confirmation , Acts 17. Then they did impose their hands upon them , and they received the Holy Ghost . 2 Cor. 1.22 . And he that confirmeth us with you in Christ , and hath anoyled us , God who also hath sealed us , and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts . For Pennance , S. John 20.23 . Whose sins ye shall forgive , they are forgiven , &c. Acts 16.18 . And many of them that believed , came confessing their deeds . For the Eucharist , S. Matt. 26. S. Mark. 14. S. Luke 22. This is my body , &c. S. John 6. I am the living bread , I am the bread of life , he that eateth of this Bread , shall live for ever . For extream Unction , S. James 8.14 . If any be sick , let him bring in the Priests of the Church , and let them pray over him , anoyling him with Oyl , in the name of our Lord , &c. And if he be in sins , they shall be remitted him . S. Mark 6.13 . And they anointed with Oyl many that were sick , and healed them . For Holy Order , 2 Tim. 1.6 . I admonish thee , that thou resuscitate the grace of God , which is in thee , by the imposition of my hands . For Matrimony , Ephes . 5.32 . This Sacrament is great . In all which places of Scripture we have manifestly the External Sign , either called a Sacrament , or to it annexed the forgiving of sins , or conferring of Life and Grace , which makes it a Sacrament of the New Law. So that there is no lurking here under ambiguity of words , as M. Menzeis will have it . However Hereticks vary in explaining Scripture , the Word of God doth not vary , nor his Church in understanding it . 3. As for the Fathers and Councils , See the Summary of Controversies , of the efficacy and number of Sacraments , where the places are marked , and the Manual of Controversie , Art. 28. where both Scripture and Fathers are cited at length . Luther himself de Captiv . Babyl . granteth S. Dennis Disciple of S. Paul to stand for seven Sacraments . S. Augustine hath them all . Baptism in his 28. Epistle to S. Hierom. Confirmation in his second Book against Petilian , C. 104 ▪ Pennance in his 2. Sermon upon the Ps . 101. Eucharist , in his 26. Treatise of S. John , and his Ep. 120. to Honoratus , where he calls it both a Sacrifice and a Sacrament . Extream Unction in his 5. Book of Baptism , C. 5. Holy Orders , in his 2. Book against Parmen . C. 13. Matrimony in his Book of Faith and good Works , C. 7. And de bono Conjug . C. 24. So that , when he speaks of two Sacraments of the Church ( Gemina Ecclesiae Sacramenta ) he understands there is two chief ones , to wit Baptism by reason of its necessity to salvation . And the Eucharist for its Excellency , and necessity both in his opinion . But to insist further on this here , is neither to the present purpose , or any part of what I did at first undertake . M. Menzeis running here and there , as in a Labyrinth , to shew the fathers take not alwayes the word Sacrament in the strict and proper sense , doth only involve himself in unextricable difficulties , standing to his ground of Scripture clear in Fundamentals , which no where defines what properly a Sacrament is , or any where resolves and determinates what may be ambiguous and doubtful , either in it self , or the Fathers . How then shall we be assured of this without an Infallible Visible Judge ? When some take even the clearest Scriptures and Writings of the Fathers in one sense , some in another . But the Catholick Church having received the Sacraments from Christ and his Apostles , and constantly Administrated them in the sense , and for the ends they were Instituted , hath sufficiently declared both the Number and Nature of Sacraments , according to the Tradition of the Apostles , and constant practise of the same Church , which is an infallible Ground to us , whilest all Hereticks , with M. Menzeis are so intricate in the present Question , by the Diversity of Notions , they either find in Authours , or fancy to themselves , ( some admitting not only seven , sayes Mr. Menzeis , but seventeen Sacraments , some , seven times seven , some seventy seven , yea , and more ) that they lye still either in the Lurking Holes of Obscurity and Ambiguity , the better to Palliate their Errours , or wander up and down in their unsetled Belief , following their Fallible Conjectures , uncertain Opinions , and Groundless Faith. SECT . VI. Mr. Menzeis second Ground of the Protestant Religion , Viz. The Doctrine of the Church in the first three Centuries or Ages , proved no Ground to them , yea their very Ruine . AS Historiographers remark , the greatest Empires have begun to decay , how soon they left off to ground their greatness on new Conquests : And the Naturalists observe , that Trees , and Plants do presently fade , when their Roots do not spread as the Branches spring up : So the Protestant Religion should have instantly been chocked in its Rise , and as smothered in the Cradle ; If Protestants standing constantly to their first Principle , had still rejected the Doctrine of the Church , under the specious pretence of adhering only to the pure and naked Word as a Ground most pure and clear , Scriptures making ▪ so clearly against them . Wherefore , though the first Reformers ( as I shall presently shew ) did disclaim the Doctrine of the Church in any Age after the Apostles , as infallible , or Ground of Faith , disclaim the Fathers , disclaim Miracles , disclaim a Succession from any : Yet others after the first heat of passion had a little relented , finding all this most disgraceful , and a most evident Conviction of their Errours , and fearing their Religions both fall and ruine , if not speedily propped ; claim a Succession , though from Old condemned Heresies , with M. Menzeis here , from the Waldenses , Wickliffians , Hussits , as we have seen : Cite the Fathers , though either to no purpose , or else corruptedly with Du Plessis , so evidently confuted by the Cardinal Du Peron , pretend to Miracles with M. Pool in his Nullity of the Romish Faith , though falsly , most Protestants disowning Miracles since the Apostles time , and all the world witnessing , it did never see a Miracle amongst them ; yea they grant in fine , the diffusive body of the Church to be infallible in believing , but not the Representative , or Pastors even assembled in a General Council , Infallible in Teaching , with M. Menzeis again here : Who upon this gives us for a second Ground of the Protestant Religon ; The Doctrine of the Church in the first three Centuries or Ages . The sole reason he gives for the Churches Doctrine , as being a Ground of Faith at that time is , because , if the Catholick Religion was not then purely conserved in her , it was no where to be found ( ab sit says he blasphemia ) which without blasphemy cannot be thought . Whereupon I first reflect , that if it be blasphemy to deny , the Catholick Religion must always be purely conserved in some Church ; many chief Protestants surely speak open blasphemy , who most boldly affirm before the Reformation made by Luther and Calvin , no Church to have conserved true Religion in its purity at all . Luther comment . in 1 Cor. 1.15 . I was the first to whom God vouchsafed to reveal these Doctrines which are now Preached ; this praise they cannot take from us , that we were the first that brought light to the world : Without our help , no man had ever learned one word of the Ghospel . This M. Wotton both acknowledgeth and confirmeth in Exam. Jur. Rom. Luther might well say he was the first , a Son without a Father , a Schollar without a Master , &c. Calvin in an Epistle of his to Melancthon , It doth not a little concern us ( sayes he ) that not the least suspition of any Discord risen amongst us descends to Posterity , for it were a thing more then absurd , after we have been constrained to make separation from the whole world , if we in our beginning should also divide from one another . Chillingworth , Ch. 5. Sect. 55. as for the External Communion of the visible Church , we have without Scruple formerly granted , that Protestants did forsake it . Bucer . p. 660. All the world erred ( he speaks before the Reformation ) in that Article of the Real Presence . Bibliander , in orat . ad princip . Germ. c. 72. it is without all question , that from the time of Gregory the great , the Pope is the Antichrist , who with his abomination hath made drunk all Kings and people from the highest to the lowest . Brochard , on the second Ch. Rev. p. 4. when the first assault was made upon the Papacy by Luther , the knowledge of Christ was wanting in all and every one of his members . White , in his defence , C. 37. Pa. 136. Popery was a Leprosie breeding so universally in the Church , that there was no visible company of men , appearing in the world , free from it . Bennet Morgentern , in his Treatise of the Church , calls it ridiculous , to say any before Luther had the purity of the Gospel . Simon Voyon , Cat. Doct. in his Epistle to the Reader , says , when Pope Boniface was installed , then was that universal Apostacy from the Faith , which was foretold by Paul. M. Jewel upon the Revelation fol. 110. The truth was then unheard of , when Luther and Zwingle came to preach the Ghospel . Febustian Francus , in his Epistle of abrogating Ecclesiastical Statutes , says , for certain , through the work of the Antichrist , the External Church , together with the faith and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure , and for these thousand and four hundred years , the Church hath been no where External and Visible . From all which Testimones of most renowned Protestants , yea , and of the very first Reformers is evidently proved : First , that they did not think any visible Church to have conserved at all times , the purity of the Gospel , which M. Menzeis calls blasphemy to deny . Secondly , that they claim not a Succession from any that went before them ( except only from the Apostles ) what ever later Protestants do falsly pretend . Thirdly , that they own no more the diffusive body of the Church infallible then the Representative , seeing no Church prosessing the Doctrine they did teach , is acknowledged by them for many hundred years before the Reformation . Fourthly , That Popery was the only Religion generally prevailing , and openly professed , for no less time then fourteen hundred years before Luther . Fifthly , how well M. Menzeis agreeth with other Protestants in this his second Ground of Faith. You shall presently , God willing , hear both greater and better witnesses deposing against him ; but first I ask what peculiar reason he has , why the Church in her childhood , and younger age , should be a ground of Faith , and not afterwards , and in her full maturity ? as we grant her , the fulness of Divine Wisdom even from her birth , which did not increase by age , so by age it cannot decay . We shall now presently see , how like the Protestant Church is to that of the three first Centuries ; but before this , I would know , why M. Menzeis gives her Doctrine rather for a ground , then in following times ? Is there any peculiar promise made to her , any particular reason militates for her , or any testimonies of the Scriptures , or Fathers given to her in one time , rather then in another ? was her Doctrine then purer ? her Condition more flourishing , her authority greater ? Doth not M. Menzeis grounding his Faith upon the Doctrine of the Church in any age after the Apostles , confirm that Romish Tenet of the Church Doctrine as a Ground in other Ages , by parity of reason ? Secondly , I reflect that M. Menzeis , who will admit of no Infallible Visible Judg of Controversie , of no Infallible Tradition not contained in Scripture , nor of any Assembly of the Fathers , and Pastor of the Church in a General Council as infallible in their Decrees : Here either acknowledgeth the Records of the Ecclesiastick History , and Writings of the Fathers , as witnessing infallibly to us , the Doctrine of these ages , or else must grant he hath no infallible assurance that this his second ground of Faith is solid and Infallible . There being no other way left us ( without particular Revelation ) to know what Doctrine the Church did teach , and believe in the first three Ages , save only the Writings of the Fathers , and Tradition of the present Church ; which consequently M. Menzeis must either here own as Infallible , or avouch he builds his Faith upon a sandy and fallible ground . The first Reformers standing better to their own Principles then he , and of much greater sincerity and learning , grant plainly the Fathers of the Primitive Church , to hold many things in opposition to them . Luther L. de servo arbitr . C. 2. and in his Table Conferences C. de patrib . Eccl. The Authority of the Fathers is not to be regarded ; in the Writings of Hierome , there is not a word of true Faith in Christ , & sound Religion : Tertullian is very Superstitious : I have holden Origen long since accursed : of Chrysostome , I make no account : Basil is of no worth , he is wholly a Monk , I weigh not him a hair ; Cyprian is a weak Divine , affirming there yet further , that the Apology of Melancthon doth far excell all the Doctors of the Church , yea even Augustine himself . Calvin L. 3. Inst . C. 5. It was a custome 1300. years ago ( that is in the second age ) to pray for the dead , but all of that time , ( says he ) I confess were carried away with Errour . And in the fourth Book of his Institutions , Chapter 9. he will stand to no Decision of Councils , Fathers , Bishops , but try all by Scripture alone ; granting generally all the Western Churches to have defended Popery , Resp . ad Versipell . p. 134. Melancthon on the first Cor. 3. speaks plain , presently from the beginning of the Church , the antient Fathers obsc●●ed the Doctrine of Justice by Faith , encreased Ceremonies , and devised new Worships . In like manner , Peter Martyr 1. devotis p. 477. that in the Church , Errours did begin , Immediately after the Apostles ; and therefore as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers , we shall be alwayes in the same Errours . Whitaker cont . 2. q. 5. C. 7. it is true which Calvin and the Centurists have written , that the antient Church did Err in many things , as touching Limbo , free Will , merit of Works , &c. Chemnitius in Exam. conc . trid . pa. 200. most of the Fathers did not dispute , but avouch , that the souls of Martyrs heard the petitions of those who prayed to them , they went to the Monuments of Martyrs , and Invocated Martyrs by name . D. Fulk in his confutation of Purgatory , grants Tertullian , Cyprian , Hierome , Augustine do witness , that Sacrifice for the Dead is a Tradition of the Apostles ; yea in his retentive , says , Prayer for the dead prevailed within the first 300. years . And in his Answer to a counterfeit Catholick , That Pope Victor in the second Age , did practise Supremacy in the Church . The Centurists do reprehend Cyprian , Origen , Tertullian in the third Century ; and S. Gregory Nazianzen in the fourth , for teaching Peters Primacy ; as they do also S. Cyprian in the third Century , of Superstition for saying , that the Priest ( at Mass ) holds the place of Christ , and offers up Sacrifice to God the Father . Sacerdotem Cyprianus inquit , vice Christi fungi & deo patri sacrificium offerre . And generally confess , the Fathers of the third Age do witness , and that not in obscure terms invocation of Saints ; videas , in doctorum hujus soeculi Scriptis non obscura vestigia invocationis Sanctorum . They say further in the second Century , S. Irenaeus admitteth free Will , even in Spiritual actions , and that S. Clement every where asserteth it , so that the Doctors and Parstors of that Age , were in this manner of blindness , say they , reckoning out in this number , S. Cyprian , Theophilus , Tertullian , Origen , Clemens Alexandrinus , Justine , Irenaeus , Athenagoras , Tatianus , &c. As doth also Abraham Scultetus with them . Yea Doctor Humphrey in his Jesuitisms , pa. 2. and else where Eccl. C. 15. says , it cannot be denyed , but that S. Irenaeus , S. Clement , and other Fathers of the first and second age called Apostolicks ( for that they were Disciples of the Apostles , or immediately followed them ) have in their Writings the Opinion of free Will , and Merit of Works ; The Cen●ury Writers , and Scultetus Tax for the same Clement of Alexandria , S. Cyprian , Justin Martyr , &c. In the third Century , they say , Origen made good Works , the cause of Justification , and in the 5. accuse , S. Chrysostome for handling the Doctrine of Justification impurely , as attributing Merit to Works . M. Whitaker saith , that not only Cyprian , but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in that Errour , as thinking so to pay the pain due to sin , and to satisfie to Gods Justice , in so far as Luther on the 4. ch . to the Gallathians calls for this , Hierome , Ambrose , Augustine , and other Fathers Justice-workers of the old Papacy . And M. Wotton in his defence of M. Perkins , forbeareth not to censure , for this very Point of Merit , the undoubted and confessed Writings of Ignatius , Disciple of S. John. Chemnitius in his Examine , par . 4. p. 20. affirmeth the Antient Fathers Erred in making Pilgrimages to Relicks of Saints ; and Osiander with the Centurists , Cent. 4. that S. Hierome did foolishly contend , that the Relicks of Saints ought to be worshipped . For owning Traditions , Chemnitius in his Exam. Par. 1. p. 87.89.90 . reproves Clement of Alexandria ; Origen , Epiphanius , Hierome , Ambrose , Basil , Maximus , Damacene , and M. Whitaker , de Sacr. Script . S. Chrysostome as speaking inconsiderately when he admitteth them . D. Reynolds in his Concla . 1. p. 689. somewhat more moderate , leaves the censuring of S. Epiphanius , for this to the Church . M. Whitgift in his defence against Cartwrights Reply , grants Ignatius Disciple of the Apostles , to have said of Hereticks , They do not admit the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ , which flesh suffered for our sins . And M. Beacon in his Treatise , the Relicks of Rome , says the Mass was begotten , conceived , and born anon after the Apostles time , if it be true , what Historiographers write . Calvin L. 1. Inst . C. 4. confesseth in the Primative Church , Confession , Pennance , and Absolution by the Priests : and the Century Writers , that in the times of S. Cyprian and Tertullian , there was used private confession , even of thoughts , and lesser sins , then so commanded as necessary . Where any judicious Reader may evidently see , how by chief Protestant Authours , both the Primitive Church , and the Fathers are censured for many Errours . Yea and for the very same , which are most objected against the Romish Church , a most invincible Argument from the confession of our Adversaries ; That the Church and Fathers of the three first Ages , did teach the self same Doctrine with the present Roman Church , and with Pope Pius in his confession of Faith in all those Points quoted by them , Free Will , Merit of Works , Invocation of Saints , honouring of Relicks , Prayer and Sacrifice for the Dead , S. Peters Primacy amongst the Apostles , the Popes Supremacy in the Church , Mass , Traditions , the Real Presence , Confession , Pennance , Absolution , &c. So that if M. Menzeis will stand to his own word , and trust the Writings of his brethren , He is here again engaged to turn Papist . Many more such Quotations could I produce from chief Protestant Writers , acknowledging both the Church and Fathers , of the first three Ages , holding most controverted Tenets , flatly against Protestants . And yet so confident M. Menzeis is , he dare take the Church Doctrine at that time , for a Ground of the Protestant Religion , and this no doubt to shew the deepness of his Learning , and how well he is versed in Antiquity , till presently we hear the Fathers themselves speaking , the better to make both his Weakness and Igorance appear . But before I enter upon this , I remark M. Menzeis in his 8. paper , says , we agree with Protestants in all their Positive Tenets , and only in their Negatives disagree . How true this is , I do not now dispute ; yet must here reflect , that all chief Heresies , for the most part , with that of Protestants have ever consisted in Negations , and in denying some Points of Faith , generally received in the Church . Sabellius denyed three persons in the God-head , Eutiches two Natures in Christ ; Nestorius in Christ one Person : The Monothelites two wills in Christ , as two Natures : The Arians , Christ to be consubstantial with his Father : The Macedonians , the consubstantiality of the Holy Ghost : Marcion , that Baptism in the Church should be conferred but once , The Novatians , that sinners after Baptism could be absolved upon Repentance ; and even such Heresies Protestants most claim to ; as the Grecians deny the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son ; the Waldenses deny Princes and Magistrates to conserve their Digities and Power when fallen in mortal sin : The Hussits deny that the predestinate could sin ; the Albigenses , Marriages to be lawful ; the Wickliffians , Free Will , and so forth . Negatio est Malignantis naturae , say the Philosophers , Negations are of a Malignant Nature , whence we see , that as Atheism consists in denying God , so Heresies are most in Negations , as flowing from the Spirit of Pride , contradiction , Rebellion . However it is time we shew what conformity there is betwixt Protestants Negative Tenets , and the Doctrine of the Church in the first three Centuries , or Ages ; M. Menzeis provoking so confidently his Adversary to bring any Essential difference from the Authentick writings of these Fathers , and upon this engaging to turn Papist . I do not here question further then I have done in my second reflection , how he who admits of no Infallible Visible Judge , can be sufficiently assured of their Authentick Writings , for if he take this only upon their conformity with Scripture , they can make no peculiar Ground to him , rather then other mens Writings , having the like conformity with it , or can they be caled properly a distinct Ground from it ; But having seen how many chief Protestants disown the most antient Fathers , chalenge them of manyfold Errours ; censure their Doctrine ( a most strong conviction against M. Menzeis , that they take not their Writings for a Ground ) let us hear themselves deposing clearly in our favour against him , and see if they who have confounded so many Atheists , convinced so many Infidels , converted so many Hereticks , may even happily prevail with M. John. I cite here only the Fathers in the first three Centuries after Christ , as M. Menzeis makes only his appeal to them : In which Ages , the Church being still under persecution , had not indeed so many Writers as in following times , to witness her Doctrine against all Hereticks : Yet you shall God willing see how clearly the chiefest of them dissent from Protestants in all controverted Tenets , and most disgracefully bely him . The Fathers of the first three ages clearly speaking against Protestants in all Chief Controverted Tenets . I Begin even at what is most Principal , to wit , the Popes Supremacy , this Potestants deny . But in the first Age , S. Denis de divinis nominibus , C. 3. calls S. Peter first Bishop of Rome , the Supreme and most antient top of Divines . Where both Primacy and Supremacy is given to him . S. Clement Disciple of S. Peter in his first Epistle , declares him both the ground stone of the Church , and the most powerful of the Apostles . S. Ignatius Disciple of S. John , in his Epistle to the Romans , extolling their Church , calls her , The Church that presides at Rome . In the second Age , S. Irenaeus l. 3. contra Valent . C. 3. says , the Romish Church is the greatest and most antient : And again , l. 3. C. 3. all Churches round about ought to resort to the Roman Church , by reason of her more powerful Principality . In the third Age , Zepherinus Pope , in his Epistle to the Bishops of Sicily decreed , That the greater causes of the Church , were to be determined by the Apostolick Sea , because so the Apostles and ther Successors had ordained . In the third Age , Origen on the 6. Ch. to the Rom. says , The chief charge of feeding Christs Sheep was given to S. Peter , and the Church founded upon him . In the same Age , S. Cyprian Ep. ad Jul. We hold Peter the Head and Root of the Church ; and again , Ep. 55. he calls the Church of Rome S. Peters Chair . Yea in the second Century , Amandus Polonus , M. Spark , and M. Whitaker , ( though Protestants ) confess , that Victor then Bishop of Rome ( whom M. Whitgift calls a godly Bishop ) carried himself as Pope , or Head of the Church . So well has Protestant Doctrine in this Point , a Ground in rhe Fathers of the first three Ages ; that Danaeus a Protestant , in his Answer to Bellarmine , acknowledgeth Soveraign Authority to have been practised by the Popes of the third Age , the Centurists , Cent. 3. that Tertullian did think the keys to be committed chiefly to S. Peter , and the Church to be built on him ; and S. Cyprian to have taught , that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledged of all others , the Mother Church . Now shall all this be called Protestant Doctrine , that S. Peter was Head and Root of the Church , that the Church was founded upon him , that the chief charge of Christs Flock was given to him , that he is the Supreme amongst Divines ; that the Church of Rome is his Chair , which for this hath a more powerful Principality , as greatest , so that the greater causes in the Church ought to be decided by her ? where by parts , all the Controversie of the Popes Supremacy is holden out against them . Secondly , Protestants deny we should believe any thing not contained in Scripture , upon Apostolical Tradition conserved in the Church . But in the first age , S. Denis , Eccl. Hierarch . C. l. speaking of the Apostles , says , These our first Captains of Priestly Function , did deliver to us the chiefest and most Substantial Points , partly in written , partly unwritten Institutions . In the same Age , S. Ignatius , apud Euseb . l. 3. Hist . C. 36. doth exhort all to stick to the Traditions of the Apostles . In the second Age , S. Irenaeus , L. 3. C. 4. what if the Apostles had left no Scriptures at all , ought we not to follow the Order of Tradition , which they have delivered unto those , to whom they did commit their Churches ? and to which assent many Barbarous Nations who believe in Christ without Character or Ink. In the same Age , Origen Hom. 5. in lib. num . there are many things in Ecclesiastical Traditions which all ought to do , and on the 6. Ch. to the Romans , he sayes , to baptize Infants is one . In the third Age , Tertullian de praescr . teacheth Hereticks are to be confuted rather by Tradition then Scripture ; and L. de Cor. mil. speaking of the Ceremonies of Baptism , the Sign of the Cross , Sacrifice for the Dead , &c. he addeth , of these , and such like things , if thou require a ground in Scripture , thou shalt find none : Tradition did begin them , Custome has confirmed their Practice , and Faith doth observe them . In the same Age S. Cyprian l. 1. Ep. 12. says , he that is Baptized , ought to be anointed , but of this Unction , there is no mention in Scripture ; and in his second B. Ep. 3. he admonisheth Water should be mixed with Wine in the Chalice at Mass , upon a like Tradition from the Apostles . See in what I have cited heretofore , how the Fathers have received the Scriptures upon Tradition , and many most substantial Points with it , and upon due consideration of all this , let any one judg , whether the Fathers of the first three Ages , in these their most Authentick Writings I know , do make a ground for Protestant or Catholick Doctrine , speaking so plainly , the chiefest & most Substantial Points of our Faith , were delivered partly in Written , and partly in Unwritten Institutions , exhorting us to stick to Traditions conserved in the Church , which serve for conversion of Infidels , conviction of Hereticks , and generally ought to be kept by all . 3. Protestants deny the unbloody Sacrifice of Christs body and blood offered up to God in the Mass . Yet in the first Age , the very Liturgies of the Apostles are extant , and in that of S. James , we offer unto thee ( O Lord ) the unbloody Sacrifice for our sins : And S. Andrew in the Book of his Passion , written by his Disciples , sayes unto the Tyrant . I sacrifice daily the Immaculate Lamb to Almighty God. And in the same Age , S. Clement , Ep. 3. It is not lawful to celebrate Masses in other places , but in these wherein the proper Bishop shall appoint , these things the Apostles receieved from our Lord , and delivered to you . S. Ignatius , Ep. ad Smyrnens . It is not lawful without a Bishop to offer , or Sacrifice , or Celebrate Mass . In the second Age , S. Irenaeus l. 4. ad u. heres . C. 32. calls the Body and Blood of Christ , the Oblation of the New Testament , which the Church having received from the Apostles , offereth to God through the whole world . And Tertullian , l. de Veland . virg . it is not permitted that women should teach , or speak in the Church , nor Baptize , nor Offer . Origen hom . 13. in Exod. you think your selves guilty , and unworthy if any part of the Consecrated Host be lost through your negligence . S. Hippolitus , Orat. de Antichr . bringeth in Christ speaking thus , Come you Bishops and Priests , who have daily offered my precious Body and Blood. How clear are the following Fathers , S. Epiphanius , S. Chrysostome , S. Athanasius , S. Basil , &c. with S. Augustine for this ? as even in the third Age , S. Cyprian Serm. de coena . dom . the Eucharist is a Holocaust to purge our sins , and in his Epistle , ad Cyrill . he calls it a Sacrifice seven times . 4. Protestants deny the Real Presence , and Transubstantion . But in the first age , S. Ignatius in his Epistle ad Smyrnenses ( often cited by Eusebius , Athanasius , S. Jerome , Theodoret and other antients ) speaking of the Saturnian Hereticks , says , They admit not of Eucharists and Oblations , because they do not confess the Eucharist to be our Saviours flesh , which suffered for our sins ; and in his Epistle to the Romans , I do not delight in any corruptible food , nor in the pleasures of this life , I desire the bread of God , the heavenly bread , which is the flesh of Christ the Son of God. S. Denis Areop . l. de Eccl. Hierarch . C. 3. O most Divine and holy Sacrament , vouchsafe mercifully to open the Veils of those signifying Signs , wherein thou hidest thy self , and appear plainly unto us . In the second Age , S. Irenaeus , l. 4. C. 34. disputing against the Hereticks , who denyed Christ to be the Son of God ; asks how it shall be manifested unto them , that bread upon which thanks are given , is the body of our Lord , and the Challice , his Blood , if they say he is not the Son of the Maker of the world . S. Cyprian serm . de coena dom . The Bread which our Lord gave to his Disciples , being changed not in shape , but in nature by the Omnipotency of the word is made flesh . In the third Age , Origen , We eat the bread offered by Prayer , made a certain holy Body . And again , hom . 5. in div . loca Evang. When thou receivest the holy Food , thou Eatest and Drinkest the Body and Blood of our Lord , then the Lord entreth under thy roof , &c. In the same Age , Tertullian l. 4. contra Marcion . C. 40. The Bread taken and distributed to his Disciples he made his body . What can be said more clearly then all this , either for the Real Presence , or Transubstantiation , which is nothing but the change of the Bread in Christs Body , here so plainly asserted . Add to this , for communion under one kind , denyed by Protestants , it is said to have been so given to Infants ; by S. Denis l. Eccl. Hierach . C. ult . to both Infants and sick , by S. Cyprian , serm . de lapsis n. 10. and by Tertullian l. ad Uxorem , to have been carried to private houses , yea and over Sea by Eusebius l. 5. hest . which could not be done , but under one kind . 5. Protestants deny purgatory and prayers for the dead . But in the first Age , S. Denis Eccl. Hierarch . part . 3. C. 7. says the Venerable Prelate approaching powereth forth his holy Prayer upon the dead , by that Prayer he doth beseech the Divine clemency to forgive all the sins of the dead committed trhough humane Infirmities , and to place him in light , and in the Region of the living . In the same Age , S. Clement l. 8. Const . C. 48. has a long Prayer accustomed to be said for the dead . Again the same S. Clem. Ep. 1. de S. Petro , tells us , S. Peter taught them among other works of mercy , to pray and give alms for the dead . And in the Liturgy of S. James Apostle , we have Prayers also for them . Tertullian l. de Corona . militis , numbreth prayer for the dead amongst the Traditions of the Apostles , and speaks thus , l. de anima C. 58. Seeing we understand that prison which the Gospel demonstrates to be places below , and the last farthing , we interpret every small fault there to be punished , by the delay of the Resurrection , no man will doubt but that the soul doth recompence something in the places below , Ibid. we make yearly Oblations , says he , for the dead . Origen hom . 6. in Exod. he that is saved , is saved by fire , so that if a man have something mixed with Lead , that the fire doth purge and resolve , that all may become pure Gold. S. Cyprian , l. 4. Ep. 2. It is one thing to be purged a long time for sins by Torment , and cleansed by a long fire , and another thing to purge all sins by patience and sufferings . What fire is more clear then S. Augustine and others be with S. Cyprian and Origen here for a purging fire ? I know Protestants Expound that place of S. Paul , 1 Cor. 3. v. 13 , 14. of the fire of Tribulation in this life , but not so , S. Augustine in Ps . 37. where citing the words of the Apostle , he shall be safe , yet so as by fire , says , and because it is said , he shall be safe , that fire is contemned , yet that fire shall be more grievous then what ever a man can suffer in this life ; and then entring in a most fervent Prayer continues , Purge me , O Lord , in this life , that I need not that mending fire . 6. Protestants deny Invocation and honouring of Saints . But in the first Age , S. Denis eccl . Hierarch . C. 7. says , I constantly affirm with the Divine Scripture , that the Prayers of the Saints are very profitable for us in this life , when a man is inflamed with a desire to imitate the Saints , and distrusting his own weakness , he betakes himself to any Saint , beseeching him to be his helper and petitioner to God for him , he shall obtain by that means very great assistance . In the same Age S. Clement l. Apost . Constit . 5. We command you , that the Martyrs be in all honor among you , even as James the Bishop , and Stephen our fellow Deacon have been amongst us , for God has made them blessed , and holy men have honoured them . In the second Age , S. Cornelius Ep. 1. exhorteth to beseech God and our Lord Jesus Christ , that his holy Apostles making Intercession for you , he would purge you from your sins . And Justin Martyr Apol. 2. We worship and adore both God the Father and his Son , &c. as also the company of his followers , and the good Angels , and we worship them both by words and deeds , and in truth even as we our selves have been taught and instructed . In the third Age S. Cyprian l. 4. Ep. 9. The sufferings and days of Martyrs we celebrate with a yearly remembracne . And Origen in Lament . I will begin to fall down on my knees , and pray to all his Saints to succour me , who dare not ask God , for the exceeding greatness of my sins . O Saints of my God , with tears I beseech you to fall down before his mercy for me a wretch . 7. Protestants deny the use of the sign of the Cross , and Images . But in the first Age , S. Denis l. 2. Eccl. Hierarch . c. 2. The sign of the Cross is so much honoured , that it is often used both in baptism and other Sacraments . In the same Age , S. Martial Ep. ad Burdegal . Remember the Cross of our Lord , keep it in your mind , speak often of it , have it in the Sign , for it is your invincible Armour against Satan . Tertullian l. de Coron . milit . c. 3. In every thing we do , we sign our forehead with the sign of the Cross , of which practice , Tradition is the defender , Custome the conserver , and Faith the observer . And in his time he sayes l. 2. de pudicit . The Image of Christ bearing a Lamb , was graven on the Chalices used in Churches ; And how famous is the memory of many more Images in the first three Ages , as that of our Saviour sent to Abgarus Prince of Edessa , of which see Evagrius l. 4. c. 26. Mataphrastes , in the life of Constantine , S. John Damascon in his book of Images . That which the woman cured of a Flux set up in brass at Caesaraea Philippi ; as witness Eusebius in his 7. Book Ch. 14. So Zomenus l. 5. c. 20. and Damascene again , Ibid. a third made by Nicodemus , which being afterward taken by the Jews , and in mockery crucified , was honored by God with many Miracles , as is related by S. Athanasius , or some other most antient Author of the Book Intituled , of the Passion of our Lords Image . Besides these , Theodorus Lect. l. 1. Collectan . maketh mention of one of our blessed Lady , drawn by S , Luke ▪ Eusebius relateth , that he did see many antient Images of Christ placed betwixt S. Peter and S. Paul , as much witnesseth S. Augustine l. 1. De cons . Evan. c. 10. Damasus in the life of S. Silvester , writeth that Constantine in the place where he was Baptized , Erected Silver Images of our Saviour and S. John Baptist , as also others in the Church of S. John Lateran , which the first Christian Emperour had never done , nor S. Silvester permitted , if the practice of the Church from the Apostles had not been such . 8. Protestants deny Free will , after the fall of Adam , but in the first Age , S. Clement l. 3. recognit . Asketh how doth God judge every man by his deeds according to truth ; if he have not in his power to do what is commanded , if this be held , all things are frustrate , in vain shall the study be of following better things ; In the same Age S. Ignatius Ep. ad Magn. If any man do wickedly , he is a man of the Devil , not made so by Nature , but by his own free will. In the second Age , S. Justin Martyr in Apol. Unless mankind can both fly foul and undecent things , and follow fair and good things of his own free will ; it is without all cause and blame of theirs , howsoever things be done . S. Irenaeus l. 4. c. 72. not only in works , but even in Faith hath Almighty God reserved liberty of will to Man , saying , be it to thee according to thy Faith. In the third Age , S. Cyprian in Deut. & l. 3. ad Quirin . c. 52. The freedome of believing or not believing , is placed in the will. In the same Age Origen hom . 12. in Num. O Israel , what doth thy Lord God require of thee ? let them be ashamed of these words , who deny free will in man ; how should God require of man , unless man had in his power , what to offer to God requiring . 9. Protestants deny merit of Works . But in the first Age , S. Ignatius Ep. ad Rom. says , Give me leave to become the food of beasts , that by that means I might merit and win God. In the second , Justin Martyr , Apol. 2. We think that men who by works have shewed themselves worthy , &c. shall by their Merits live and Reign with him . In the third , S. Cyprian l. de Unit. eccl . We must obey his Precepts and Admonitions , that our Merits may receive their reward . And in his Serm. de Eleem. If the day of our return shall find us unloadned , swift , and running in the way of good works , our Lord will not fail to reward our merits . 10. Protestants deny the possibility of keeping the Commandements , which S. Basil . orat . in illud attende tibi ; calls a wicked thing to say . S. Hierome on the 5. of S. Matthew , Blasphemy : S. Augustine , serm . 61. de tempore , a denial both of the justice and holiness of God. In the the third Age , Tertullian as cited by the Centurists , Cent. 3. says , No Law could tye him , who had not in his power due obedience to the Law. This is a maxime in Philosophy ; wherefore Origen hom . 9. in Jos . sayes plainly , the baptized may fulfil the Law in all things . Now not to be more tedious or prolix in ciing either Passages or Fathers ( whose Quotations could easily make a just Volume ) of the Sacraments I have spoken in the former Section ; and of the Pastors of the Church , their infallible Authority in a general Council , in the third : which with what is here said , are the main things and most substantial denyed by Protestants , but clearly asserted by the Fathers cited , who all confessedly did live in the first three ages , a very few excepted ; I have brought , of the fourth and fifth age , only as witnesses of what was practised in the Church before their time ; leaving the Canons of the Apostles , and many things by Tradition from them conserved in the Church , and witnessed by the Fathers , with the Decrees of most holy Popes and Martyrs of the first and second Age , as these of Anacletus , Alexander , Sixtus , Telesphorus , Pius , Anicetus , Soter , &c. holding out so many of our Tenets against Protestants : and this to shun Cavils and Exceptions , which they might take either at their writings or place , as they do . As for the same cause many other most renouned Authors , as Policarpus , Cornelius , Prochorus , Methodius , Nilus , Agapetus , Dorotheus and others , upon this only account , with the Book of Hermes ( of whom S. Paul to the Romans , Ch. 16. maketh mention ) called the Pastor , which Hamelmanus and M. Hooker both Protestants , grant to have been reckoned by the antient Fathers in the number of Ecclesiastical Books , and particularly as seemeth to Hamelmanus by no less men then Irenaeus , Clement , and Origen . Yet this Book in such esteem with them , he will have to be impure , as laying the ground of Purgatory , Prayer for the dead , Merit and Justification of Works , of professed Chastity in Priests and Church-men , of fasting from certain Meats at times , &c. But I hope M. Menzeis will make no exception against most Authors I have produced , unless passing from his appeal to the Fathers of the first three ages ; he pass also from his second ground of Faith , as certainly after all has been said he should do , seeing I may justly speak home to him here , with S. Augustine in his 11. Book against Julian , the Pelagian Heretick , c. 10. What the Catholick Fathers and Doctors have found in the Church , that they hold : what they have received from their forefathers , that they have delivered to their children . Whilest we had no debate as yet with you before them as Judges , our case was pleaded amongst them ; we were not as yet contesting with you , and nevertheless by their decree we have the victory over you . Neither is this victory imaginary ( as that of M. Menzeis ) but real , as the three Arguments I have brought make good ; which by way of recapitulation , I set before him in this one Argument : the Doctrine of the Church , and writings of the Fathers in the first three Ages , can be no ground to Protestants for what they teach : First , if the chief Reformers disown them . Secondly , if most learned Protestants accuse them of many Errours . Thirdly , If their own Writings in all controverted Tenets be flatly against Protestant Doctrine : but all this is true from the places produced ; then their Writings can be no ground to them . Yet Protestants will needs make up their Religion from the Writings of the Fathers , as some Poets from the Centons and broken Verses of Virgil and Homer , the life of Christ . They challenge the Fathers for their Heresie upon a word or two picked out of places wherein they have an Orthodox sense : In so many hundred Volumes of the Fathers writings , that some word or passages seem to favour Heresie , what wonder ? Gods own Word , if we will stick to the naked Letter , seeming to favour so many , as we have seen above . They oppose Fathers to Fathers , and sometimes one to himself , so they are possessed with the Spirit of contradiction , that all may turn Problematick , and be controverted among them . They cite the Scriptures against the Fathers , as if their new and giddy headed start-ups , did better understand them , then the most antient and solid Divines ; they will at times , by passages of the Fathers or Scripture , strive to condemn the practice of the Church , and Decrees of Councils : but whoever amongst the Fathers did so ? doth any one of the Fathers ( with the first Reformers ) oppose Scripture as understood by them ) to the Authority of the Church , or to the same Scripture , as explained by her ? Doth any of them attach the Roman Church of Errour ? To say such a Church , so great and glorious in the Christian world , did Apostatize , and none did remark her Apostacy ; is like a general Eclipse of the Sun , remarked by none . The least Errours of particular Hereticks , the Fathers have so narrowly sifted , so sharply censured , so solidly confuted : and shall we think , they have either not spyed , or spared to censure the corruptions of a whole body and Church . But let wise men and greatest Shcollars be at variance as they please , about some places both of Scriptures and Fathers , as surely it will be to the Worlds end ; God hath given us both a sure and short way , promised by the Prophet , wherein even ignorants and fools cannot err , Christ having left us the present Catholick Church in all ages , as the most faithful Depositary of his Doctrine , and the Infallible Visible Judge of all that can be controverted in matters of Faith. Before I end this Section , to give you but a scantling with what sincerity and candor Hereticks cite the Fathers ; this I borrow from M ▪ Menzeis in his third paper , where in general , he most confidently says , That whatever the antient Apologists , as Justin Martyr , Tertullian , and Athenagoras have said for the Christian Religion , the same Protestants may say for their own . Whereupon having diligently read over the first of these Apologies , which is that of Justin Martyr ( as any may do in an hour ) I have found him so grosly mistaken in citing this Father , that I may justly say , he could not more forfeit his reputation . This I evidence in four chief Points asserted by us , and denyed by Protestants . The first is Free Will , for which Justin in his Apology is so clear , that having said , If men had not in their Free Will , to fly what is filthy , and choose what is honest , they should be no wise to blame for what ever action ; he will have it a Demonstration , That men have freedom to live virtuously , or fall in sin , because we see them by experience to pass from one of these contraries to the other . His words are , ac nisi libero arbitrio & ad turpia fugienda ▪ & ad honesta deligenda facultatem habeat mortalium genus , non fuerit in causâ sive culpâ qualiumcunque demum , factorum : Sed enim libero id delectu tum recte per virtutem vivere , cum per peccatum labi , ad hunc demonstramus modum : hominem eundem ad contraria subinde transire videmus . The second is Merit of Works , in acknowledging a reward to them , his words again are , Atque hoc etiamsi paucis persuaferimus , maximum tamen inde feremus lucrum ; nam ut boni agricolae amplam à domino capiemus mercedem . The third is the efficacy of Baptism , in cleansing us by water from all former sins , and making us the children of God , Ut ne necessitatis & ignorantiae liberi permaneamus , sed ●●●ectus & scientiae filii fiamus , ac remissionem ante commissorum peccatorum consequamur in aquâ . The fourth the Real Presence , saying of the Consecrated Bread and Wine in so express words ; Not as common Meat and common Drink do we take these things , but even as by the Word of God , our Saviour JESUS Incarnate had flesh and blood for our Salvation , so we are taught that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of the self same JESUS Incarnate : His words are ; Non enim ut communem panem neque communem potum ista sumimus ; sed quemadmodum per verbum dei , caro factus Jesus Christus Servator noster , & carnem & sanguinem habuit : ad eundem modum , etiam eam in quâ per preces verbi ejus ab ipso profecti gratiae sunt actae , alimoniam , incarnati illius Jesu carnem & sanguinem esse edocti sumus . Nam Apostoli in commentariis à se scriptis , quae Evangelia vocantur ita tradiderunt . Diverse other things in the same Apology I pass , these few things being sufficient , to shew M. Menzeis ingenuity , and how he with other Hereticks dare cite the Fathers , who even most evidently and expresly condemn them . But to close this Section ( which citations have made longer then I intended ) with one Query I ask M. Menzeis where he shall find , so much as in one of the Fathers , any point of Doctrine taught by the present Roman Church condemned of Heresie : as many Protestant Tenets they hold against us , are declared Heretical by so many , as by S. Ireneus l. 1. c. 20. to say with Simon Magus , that men are not saved by good works ; by S. Epiphanius haeres . 8. to say with Cerinthus , That children may be saved without Baptism . By the same S. Epiphanius , to say with the P●o●●ma●s , That God has commanded some impossible things . By S. Augustine , l. 20. contr . Faust . to pull down Altars with the Manichees . By the same S. Augustine l. 2. Contra lit . Petil. C. 32. and 34. To say with the Donatists , That the Baptism of Christ , and that of S. John Baptist were all one : by S. Epiphanius haeres . 75. and S. Augustine haeres . 53. To say with the Arians , that Fasts of the Church are not to be observed , nor Prayers , nor Sacrifice to be used for the dead . By Sozomenus l. 5. c. 20. and Eusebius l. 7. C. 14. To forbid with Julian the Apostate , the use of Images , and Sign of the Cross . by S. Hierome l. contr . Helvidianum . To equal marriage with Virginity . By the same S. Hierom l. contr . Vigilant . To say with Vigilantius , Saints are not to be Invocated , nor their Relicks to be honoured . By S. Hierome again , l. 3. contr . Pelagian . To brag as the Pelagians did , that they were sure of their Salvation . By S. Augustine to say with Jovinian That such as are regenerate by Baptism , and once received in Gods grace and favour cannot finally fall away . By S. Hierome contr . Vigilant . To say Churchmen ought to marry . By S. Cyril in Epist . ad Calo-syrium Episc . of Madness as well as Errour . To say with some in these dayes , Christs body did not remain in the Eucharist , if it were kept untill the morrow . By S. Augustine l. 6. contra Julian . C. 2. & 3. and ad Bonifac. C. 2. & 4. To say with the Pelagians , That the children of the Faithful are born holy , and need no Regeneration by Baptism . By S. Augustine l. de haeres . C. 54. To teach with the Eunomians , A man is saved by Faith only . By S. Augustine l. 1. C. 2. & ult . contra Maximin . To deny Apostolical Traditions in the Church . By S. Cyprian Ep. 55. to say with most Hereticks , To Peters Chair and the Principal Church , Infidelity or false Doctrine can have access . By Irenaeus l. 3. C. 3. to deny all Churches round about ought to resort to the Roman Church , by reason of her more powerful Principality ; By all the Fathers in the Council of Calcedon Act. 16. To deny that all Primacy and chief Honour is to be kept for the Arch-Bishop of Old Rome . So that the Protestant Religion is not only void of all Solid Ground either in the Divine Scriptures , or Holy Fathers , but also in most clear and express words is condemned as Heretical by both . It being indeed nothing but a new Heresie , patcht up of many old condemned Errours , joyned to some fresh Notions and Conceits , flowing from the same Spring and Spirit of Pride and Rebellion against all the Antient Fathers and present Pastors of the Church ; It s frequent changes , show it is not from God : It s Monstrous Divisions in so many Sects , that it has not the Unity of Faith : Its inconstancy in Principles , Tenets , Form of Worship and Government , that it is not built upon the Rock , and consequently hath no solid Foundation or Ground . Conclusion of all that has been said , wherein also the true Grounds of the Catholick Religion are set down . A Little Error in the beginning , turns great in the end , sayes the Prince of Philosophers Aristotle in his Physicks : which as it is most true in the first Principles of all Natural Sciences , so it is in the Grounds of the Christian Faith. The innumerable by-wayes of Sectaries ; their monstrous and manifold Divisions from the true Church & amongst themselvs ; so many Controversies among Christians in our days , such wranglings and jars for Religion , flow all from one Spring , to wit , The mistake of true Principles and Grounds . And this one Errour in the beginning , makes them run themselves in so many , and infinite great in the end . Pride and Contention ( the two Pillars of Heresie ) will let them acknowledge no Authority of Councils or Fathers , yield to no evidence of Reason , submit to no Judge . Whence Controversies are driven to nothing , but idle and endless Contentions and Quarrels : Councils are called Conventiles when they sentence or censure them ; the Church is changed into a Synagogue ; the Fathers forfeit their credit ; places , and passages from Scripture , are applyed or misapplyed as they list ; Now a jeer , now a jest in handsome Language ( which jovial and jeering humours most look upon ) are their common Answers to solid Reasons : Evidence in Motive of credibility is mocked at : Faiths certainty is changed into probability : a few Fundamentals comprehending chief Mysteries ( what or how many they cannot tel ) are judg'd only necessary to be believed ; Errors in Integrals ( as they call them ) which make the greatest part of Christian Doctrine , are taught to be things indifferent to our belief : In them even the Apostles were not in allible , say Rainolds and Whitaker , with some other Protestant Divines ; In them the whole Church may err , says M. Menzeis ; and upon this , as if she had erred , come in all Sectaries to reform her : she is old , and her Spirits exhausted ; they have the fulness of the Spirit : her Eyes by age are dimmed , she sees not what is manifest in Scripture , they as younger see clear : shee is too Superstitious in her Religious Ceremonies , they as more familiar with God use none : like Prophets Extraordinarily sent by God , they preach against Priests and people : they set out a New Gospel of their own , as if they were Apostles and Evangelists , finding no true Scripture before : Yea as if they had Christs own power , they abandon the Antient Church as the Synagogue , and make up a new one , changing both the Priesthood and Sacrifice : No more pennances and satisfactions of men to Gods Justice for their offences , because Christ hath satisfied for all : No more fasting , except very seldom , and that only for temporal ends : No good Works are left in our power , they are too hard , yea impossible , seeing even our best actions are sins , Faith only justifieth , and to believe is an easie task : So the strait path is made plain , and the narrow way broad to them : Whil'st others strive to work their salvation with fear and trembling , chastizing their bodies with the Apostle S. Paul , least they become reprobates ; They live secure , that each of them is one of the Elect , making even this an Article of his Faith. And this they perswade to simple ones with some refined words , uttered in the tune of the Sybilles , giving responees from the belly , so far they are fetched with a deep sigh , as if they breathed nothing but zeal : some more Learned , relying on the acuteness of their wits , go willingly along with them , not to captivate their understandings , or submit to any Visible Judg ; 〈◊〉 men of interest comply outwardly with the prevailing party , keeping their own retentions of mind ; and this it is which their Preachers for the most part desire of us , that we would but comply in hearing , that is , believe one thing , and force our Consciences to profess another . Come hear us say they , and you shall not be troubled , we seek no more , and of their most understanding hearers they get no more , as I have often heard from themselves . We are not ( say they ) so Proud and Arrogant as Papists , to call our Church and her Doctrine Infallible , the Scripture is only so : By it judg of us and what we teach , as you your selves read and understand : This is the liberty of the children of God , to be tyed to no Churches Faith , to no Councels Decrees , to no Fathers Doctrine : The Word as clear in it self , or explained by it self ; the Spirit speaking inwardly in our hearts , and every mans Natural Reason directed by certain Rules for the right understanding of both , is the only means God hath left for the conversion of Infidels , conviction of Hereticks , and setling of every good Christian in his belief . O Liberty , Liberty and Freedom of the children of God , from the Popes Supremacy , Councels , Infallible Authority , the Churches Jurisdiction in matters of Faith and Religion , and generally the usurped power of any Visible Judg. This is M. Menzeis , and Protestants great Principle , ( which as I have demonstratively I hope above proved ) makes all our Debates in Religion , and takes away all cerrainty in Faith. But because to ruine Protestant Grounds , and give no better in their place , were rather to destroy then edifie , to throw down then to build , and in a Controversie of Religion , rather to set up Atheism , then root out Heresie , ( as M. Menzeis continually cavilling at our Tenets , but never once settling his own , with so much labor hath done ) I therefore do here for a Conclusion briefly here set down , and clearly prove solid , the Grounds of the Catholick Faith. The Ground then of true Faith and Religion Established by Christ and his Apostles , not only solid and infallible in it self , but also clear and perspicuous to all , yet special and particular to us in Communion with the Sea of Rome , to which no Secta●y , Schismatick , or Heretick doth or can pretend ; removing all Doubts , deciding all Controversies , silencing all sowers of false Doctrine and Errours , keep●ng Unity , stopping Divisions , quieting mens Consciences , instructing the Ignorant , setling the Unstable , captivating the understanding of the most Learned to the obedience of Faith , and which the greatest and quickest wits of the Christian World , ( that is all the holy Fathers ) have ever built their faith upon ; Is Scripture and Apostolical Tradition conserved in the Church , as delivered expounded by her , both as an infallible Propounder and Judge . Whence if any man here ask the Analysie and resolution of our Faith ? I answer him in a very few words : We believe such things as are from Scripture , and Apostolical Tradition taught in the Church , to be true , because God hath revealed them : The reason again why we believe God did reveal such things is , for that we see evident Motives of credibility in this Church , and none else , wherein God shows himself Author of her Doctrine , confirming it with diverse infallible Marks , and chiefly Miracles , 〈◊〉 which manifestly appear both his Subscription and Seal . Digitus Dei hîc est , Pharaoh's Magicians could not but acknowledge this , Exod. the 8. V. 19. Seeing only the Dust of the Earth suddenly by Aaron changed into Vermin , they cryed out , The hand of God is here : So that there be two things to be remarked in the Resolution of Divine Faith. The first is , God revealing , Deus revelans : And the second is , God showing himself Authour of such a Revelation ; Deus proponens se authorem revelationis , say the Divines . What God hath revealed , is taught us by his Church as an infallible Propounder ; that he is Author of the Revelations made to her , he attests in the Motives of credibility , as infallible marks , that it is he who speaks : So all in our Faith is infallibly from God , and all infallibly propounded to us . The things revealed by the true and infallible Church ; and the Revelation by infallible Motives , which being clear to all who have Eyes , Ears , and Understanding , make evidently credible , and infallibly certain all and every one Point of our Religion and Faith. Now to prove what I have set down , to be the only true solid and infallible Grounds , of the true Christian and Catholick Faith. 1. That Scripture is this Ground , is granted by M. Menzeis , and all Protestants , so needs no proof as to them . 2. That sole Scripture without the Declaration and Exposition of the Church , as an infallible Propounder , Expounder , and Judge , cannot be this Ground , is proved at length in my fourth Section , and presently you shall see it again . 3 , That Apostolical Traditions are necessarily joyned with Scripture ; Is 1. proved from clear Scriptures , most expresly commanding us to receive them , 2 Thes . 2.13 . Therefore brethren stand fast , and hold the Traditions which ye have been taught , whether by word , or by Epistle . 2 Thess . 3.6 . Now I command you brethren in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ , that ye withdraw your selves from every Brother that walketh disorderly , and not after the Traditions which he received . 1 Corinth . 11.2 . Remember me in all things , and keep the Traditions as I delivered them to you . 2. By the Authority of the Fathers of the first three ages quoted in my sixth Section , with that of S. Chysostome , S. Augustine and others above mentioned . 3. From manifest and Demonstrative reason , in some chief Points which all Christians believe without any express Scripture , as I have instanced in persons in the Trinity , Sacraments in the Church , the keeping of Sunday , &c. and in many Heresies condemned by the Church , Councils , Fathers , yea and Protestants themselves , without any clear Scripture can be brought against them ▪ as S. Augustine avoucheth of the Errour of Donatists , &c. Rests then only to prove that the Church's Authority as an infallible Propounder is necessary , to make all these Divine and infallible Truths in themselves , contained either in Scripture , or delivered by Apostolical Tradition , both solid and infallible Grounds to us . For this I presuppose , 1. From the Apostle S. Paul , Hebrews 11. That without Faith it is impossible to please God. 2. From the same Apostle , Ephes . 4.5 . That there is but one Faith , one Baptism , one Lord JESUS Christ . 3. From him again , Hebr. 10.23 . That we must hold fast the profession of our Faith without wavering . From which Texts , importing the Necessity of Faith , the Unity of Faith , and the steadiness in believing required in Divine Faith , it doth follow that some infallible means which all may make use of , must be appointed by God to attain to this Faith so absolutely necessary to all . For to say God hath commanded us , and that under the pain of Eternal Damnation , to believe undoubtedly ; and not furnished infallible means to attain to such belief , were to accuse his Goodness , Providence , and Wisdom . And this no Christian or rational man will deny , so that all the Question that can be moved , is about the infallible means to attain without doubt or wavering to Divine Faith , which may perswade infallibly all sort of persons , that such things are revealed by God , removing all reasonable doubts that can arise , either concerning Gods Revelation ( which is the formal object of Faith ) or the things he hath revealed ( which makes its material Object ) and this means I say again , must not only be solid and infallible objectively and in it self ( as M. Menzeis will have the Protestant Religion and Grounds of it ) but also subjectively , and to us ; it being the same thing , as to make a perswasive motive , not to appear , and not to be , according to that Maxime , Idem est non esse & non apparere . Wherefore a ground however infallible in it self , yet not appearing so to us , and known to be such availeth nothing as to our belief . The Mathematicians Demonstrate , the Sun to be many times greater then the Earth , and their Demonstration no doubt is both certain and evident in it self , yet never shall perswade a Country clown that it is greater then his Cap , for that no Demonstration of this is clear and certain to him . Even so is it in the Ground of Faith , it must be both solid and and infallible in it self , and it must be known to be such by all who prudently rely upon it . This presupposed , to conclude all that has been said , and fully prove both the Ground of Faith in the Catholick Roman Church , solid as the Rock it is built on , and the means for conveying it to us infallible ; I first show against M. Menzeis , or rather for him and his conversion , the necessity of an infallible Propounder of what ●e must undoubtedly believe ( for if this can be made good , he engageth again to turn Papist ) 2. That the true Church is this infallible Propounder . ● . That the Catholick Roman Church is the only true Church . 1. Then as to the necessity of an infallible Propounder : If no men , no Church be infallible in propounding , then holy Scripture , and consequently all that is contained in it , is only delivered to us by fallible means , and so no infallible certainty in Faith. The consequence is clear , for most infallible Truths may be changed , altered , corrupted , and both fallibly and falsly propounded to us , as the first and chief Mysteries of the Christian Religion by Hereticks have been . 2. Faith comes of hearing , says the Apostle then as there be infallible believers and hearers , so must there be infallible Teachers , for Hearing and Teaching are Correlatives . 3. No other infallible means is , or can be assigned by Protestants to Ignorants , yea to all who understand not the Original Languages , for what is contained in Scripture , save only the Authority of their Pastors and Church , but this Authority in propounding is not acknowledged infallible by them , then no infallible means is left . 4. There is no less necessity the Church be infallible in propounding , then the Evangelists in penning , and the Apostles in Preaching , no disparity can be given , Gods Word being equally infallible in it self before both , as i● is now . 5. Our Saviour Christ most expresly owns the necessity of an infallible propounder , granting the Jews had not sinned in refusing to believe him , if by his Works and Wonders he had not evidenced himself to be the Son of God , and consequently infallible in his Doctrine . 6. For this , the gift of Miracles is given to the Apostles , and left in the Church , to show their infallible assistance in propounding . If you answer that was necessary at first , but not now , because it is the same Doctrine you teach , which the Apostles did propound infallibly : You say nothing , for that it is we doubt of , or rather undoubtedly we deny , that your Doctrine is the same . You presently appeal to Scripture , but in vain , till first you answer to all that is objected in my fourth Section , how ye know infallibly what ye call Scripture to be Gods Word , then the Letter you read to be uncorrupted , the sense you give to the genuine , &c. and to all the clear places of Scripture I have brought against most of your particular Tenets . I do not here ask ye 〈◊〉 prove that to be infallibly Gods Word which was preached by the Apostles , this they did sufficiently themselves : Neither that the Doctrine of Authentick Scripture is infallibly true , ( that was also done before there was a Protestant in the world ) but coming from those Generals ( which make all the Answers of your best Writers ) we desire ye shew by some infallible sign that your Bible is Gods pure Word ; and your Glosses on it conform to the Sense and Letter . To reply , Scripture doth evidence it self by its innate light to be Gods Word , so that all may sufficiently know it by this , and all be obliged to believe it , is refuted by Christ himself , presently telling us his own hearers had not sinned in not receiving it as such , if he had given no External Evidence of his infallibility in propounding ; for as I have remarked above , Scripture hath no greater Efficacy , Evidence , or Light in our Books , then in our blessed Saviours own mouth . Neither will the Majesty of the Stile , or the purity of the Doctrine do it , both these being as great in the the Books of Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus , which Protestants reject , as in the Ecclesiastes and Canticles , which they receive . Besides that the first of these two is imaginary , as to the Letter , there being less Majesty in the Letter of Scripture , then in the Philosophers and Orators Writings , as is con●essed by Paul. And the second is in question chiefly in Protestant Bibles , which do not agree with any Original or Copy that before Luther can be found , if we trust their own Authours whom I have quoted . Lastly , If all Councils , all the Fathers , all the Pastors of the Church be fallible , then let Protestants bring nothing but Scripture against us , ( for we will receive nothing but upon infallible Authority ) and all their Volumes of Controversie shall not come to one line . Yea further , could they bring Scripture for what they teach ( as they will never be able to do ) yet without an infallible Propounder and Judg , well might we dispute , but conclude nothing , wrangle , but agree in nothing to the Worlds end . For as sole Scripture without an infallible Church propounding , and Explaining it , so a naked Church without infallible Marks , and a Doctrine without infallible Motives , prove nothing . Secondly , I say the true Church is this infallible propounder , on whose Authority we must rely . For proof of this , It is to be observed , that in holy Scripture there be three Foundations or Grounds of Faith mentioned by the Apostle S. Paul. The 1. Is our blessed Saviour Christ , 1 Cor. 3.11 . Another Foundation no man can lay then that is laid , which is Jesus Christ . The 2. Is the Apostles and Prophets , Ephes . 2.29 . Built upon the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets . The 3. The Church , 1 Tim. 3. The house of God , which is the Church of the living God , the Pillar and Ground of Truth . From which clear places of Scripture , I remark , 1. The Foundation of Faith is ever a Living , Visible , and Speaking Ground , to wit , Christ , the Apostles , Prophets , and Church , the dead Letter of Scripture being no where called this Ground . 2. That these three Grounds of Faith , both in the Old and New Law , properly speaking make but one , according to the same Apostle , for another Foundation no man can lay , sayes he , beside Christ JESUS . So that the Prophets , Apostles , and Church must not be thought different Foundations from Christ , all their Vertue in upholding Faith , and Veracity in propounding Faith ( Whence they are called the Foundation and Ground of it ) coming from the particular assistance of his Spirit , Strengthening , Inspiring , and Directing them . Hence also is their infallibility , for the Foundation of Christ stands sure , says the Apostle , 2 Tim. 2.19 . And consequently is altogether infallible . 3. That the Church here called a Ground which supporteth our Faith , is not to be said the only diffusive body of all true Believers , but more the Representative Church in her chief Pastors , as the Prophets and Apostles in old . Wherefore some few Catholick Authors so often objected , as holding the Canons and Decrees of Councils only infallible , when they are generally received by the whole Church ; in my opinion are highly mistaken , and surely to be understood ( if any in Express terms speaks so ) of Councils not wholly Oecumenical , or not Lawfully convocated , and knownly approved by the Pope , or whereof some rational doubt may be made in things essentially required ; in which cases I grant the general belief of the Church could best warrant the infallibility of their Decrees . Otherwise a few particular persons might cope with General Councels , as Luther and his Adherents at first , Vendicating to himself the Negative voice , as if he had been high Bishop in the whole Church ; which were to take away all possible means of preserving Unity in Faith , yea to foment all Schisms and Divisions , every one pretending the whole Church holds no such Doctrine ; whil'st he who is a Member dissents . So that such Doctors if they should allow no obligation in receiving the Decrees of the Representative Church , to the which they do and must submit even this their Sentence , could neither be thought Catholicks or rational men . But however some few speak or think , God did promise us an infallible Church , Isa . 2. V. 2 , 3. Wherein he should teach us his ways , and judge amongst the Nations himself , not personally , for he never went out of Jewry , but by her Pastors . He has establish'd this infallible Church , in St. Matth. 16. V. 19. Upon the Rock . Christ hath commanded us to hear her , in St. Matth. 18. V. 17. And the persons we should hear in this Church , as well as the end wherefore we would hear them , and rest upon their Authority , is clearly set down in these words , 4. Ephes . 11. He gave some Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , some Pastors and Teachers , for perfecting of the Saints , for the work of the Ministry , till we all come in the Union of Faith , that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , &c. From all which places of Scripture , it is Demonstratively manifest , that as the true Church is infallible , and we bound to hear her , yea and to rely upon her Authority , as the Pillar and Ground of our Faith ; so is it most evidently clear , that as she speaketh only to us infallibly by the voice of her Pastors and teachers united , it is them we should hear , seeing God in her , ( not personally as I have said , but by them ) both Judgeth and Teacheth , as the infallible Propounders of his Divine Truths ( with the Prophets and Apostles in old ) and the infallible Judges of our Controversies and Debates . 2. The same is proven from the unanimous consent of the Fathers , quoted at length in my third Section , for the infallibility both of the Church and Councils ; And may be confirmed even by the confession of many Rational and Moderate Protestants , who receive the Scripture , and consequently all , and every Point contained in it , as the Word of God , upon the sole Authority of the Church ; As M. Whitaker against Stapleton , p. 1. c. 11. I deny not but the Churches Tradition is the Argument whereby to convince , what Books are Canonical and what not . M. Fulk in his Answer to a Counterfeit Catholick ; The Church hath judgment to discern the Word of God from the Writings of Men. M. Covel in his defence of Hooker , Doubtless it is a tolerable Opinion of the Church of Rome , to affirm , that the Scriptures are holy in themselves , but so esteemed of us for the Authority of the Church . And M. Hooker in his Ecclesiastical Policy , we all know that the first outward Motive leading men so to esteem of Scripture , is the Authority of the Church . And as these own her Authority in Propounding the Scripture Books , so other Protestants in resolving all Doubts , and deciding all Debates ; as Bancroft Lord Archbishop of Canterbury , in his Sermon on the 8. of February 1588. God , says he , hath bound himself to his Church of purpose , that men by her direction might in matters of doubt be relieved , he speakes of the Representative Church , which onely directeth . Master Field in the Epistle to his Treatise of the Church ; Seeing the Controversies of Religion are grown in number so many , and in Nature so Intricate , that few have time and leasure , fewer strength of understanding to examine them ; what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence , but diligently to search out , which among all the Societies of men in the World , is that blessed company of holy ones , that houshold of Faith , that Spouse of Christ , and Church of the living God , the Pillar and Ground of Truth , that so they may imbrace her Communion , follow her Doctrine , and rest in her judgement ? Here again the Representative Church both Judging and Teaching . M. Hooker in the Preface of his Books of Ecclesiastical Policy : We are right sure of this , that Nature , Scripture , and Experience have taught the World to seek for the ending of Contentions , by submitting it self to some judicial and definitive sentence , whereunto neither part that contendeth , may under any pretence refuse to submit . And what is this but a General Council ? M. Bilson in his perpetual Government is clear for it ; To have no Judge , sayes he , for the ending of Ecclesiastical Contentions were the utter subversion of all peace . Synods are surest means to decide doubts . Sr. Edwin Sands in his Relation of the Religion used in the West parts of the World. The Protestants are as severed and scattered Troops , each drawing a diverse way without any means to take up their Controversies , &c. No ordinary way to Assemble a General Council of their part , which is the only hope remaining ever to aswage their Contentions . 3. Reason evinceth it : The true Church is the School of infallible and Divine Truths , then she must have infallible Masters and Propounders . A fallible Church is most properly named by a Learned Writer , a Spiritual cheat ; it may well be called the Ground of Opinion , Doubt and Despair , but not of Infallible and Divine Faith. If the Sheep hearing the voice of their Pastors , and following them be misled , who shall be their sure Guide ? And if all the Fathers , and Doctors of the Church together assembled , may mistake either the uncorrupted Letter , or true sense of Scripture ; who I pray you can assure himself he takes it aright ? No infallibility in matte●● of Faith and Religion is left upon Earth ; 〈◊〉 the high Bishop and chief Pastors of the Church unanimously Teaching and Propounding , cannot err ; It were more then madness any man should say the contrary , and yet hold himself infallibly secure of what he believes . Would a Protestant be but once at the pains to speak to an Infidel for his conversion to the true Church , calling all her Pastors , even assembled in a Council fallible : I should willingly hear what he could so much as say in general for Protestancy , yea or for the Christian Religion . No doubt he should first speak of one true God , then of Christ and Faith in him , as necessary to salvation , telling his Proselyte , how out of his Goodness and Mercy towards us , he had made himself Man , and died upon the Cross for our sins ; Yet afterwards had risen again , and by his Miracles , showen both his Civinity and Power , and by these strange Works and Wonders , having established his Church , he had delivered his Will and Doctrine to her in his Written Word , called the Holy Scripture . Upon this , the Infidel no little astonished at such a Discourse , surely should ask him some Ground for it , and how he could be perswaded it were true ? Here I imagine the Bible is produced , as the Word of God , and sole ground of Faith : But who assures me of this , says the infidel ? It was attested by many Miracles which Christ and the Apostles did work , who first pre●●hed it , Answers the Protestant , they were holy men , chosen by our Saviour Christ , for the conversion of the World : they did Teach his Word Infallibly ; They did set it down in Writing , confirmed it with Wonders , and left it to the Church . How long ago replies the Infidel ? Nigh 1700. years answers again the Protestant . One Question more , says the Infidel ; have you any infallible Witness in your Church , or any Infallible External Motive , that this is the same Word of God that was Preached by the Apostles , and delivered by Christ ; or that in confirmation of it , ever any Miracle was wrought ? The first needs none , says the Protestant , it is clear to all well disposed persons ; turn Protestant and you will Evidently see it to be the Word of God ; and the second is sufficiently attested in it . Presently the Infidel having received further instruction in most Points of Protestancy , and made more earnest to see how all that has been taught him , is true ; desires he may have for a time the Bible , and diligently perusing it , finds some things in the Historical Books , look like Fables , many more in the Prophets he doth not understand , many seeming contradictions betwixt the two Testaments , many points he was taught by his Protestant Master , not in Scripture at all , yea many things clearly against it . Of all which he asks his Master a diligent account ; And first whether at present there be no man , or company of men can resolve him infallibly of all these doubts ? None , concludes the Protestant but Scripture it self , for since the Apostles there is in the Church no Judg , no Propounder infallible . If so , Sir , you conclude nothing with me , says the Infidel , but here I end with you ; for the Book you ground all you have said upon , as if it were clear and infallible to me , like the first Principles in our Philosophers Schools , is so deeply obscure , and highly above the reach of reason , that without some powerful motive and inducement , no reasonable man can believe it . And since you grant it was at first propounded with infallible Motives which now have ceased , It seems God would have it believed no more . For who can prudently believe things not clear in themselves , or at least not so to us , without some infallible Propunder evidencing by Supernatural Motives ( as Miracles ) that such a Doctrine is from God ? Neither can a Protestant standing to his Principles say any more ; whence no conversion of Infidels amongst them . But no end of their cavelling with us . They here urge , 1. Suppose the true Church were infallible in her Pastors assembled in a Council ; yet all we bring in proof of this , may be retorted against our private Teachers , who are not infallible in propounding . But to this it is easily answered , that as God most infallibly , both by his general Providence , and particular Promise directs , rules , and governs his Church ; so she by vertue of his special assistance oversees infallibly her private persons , in order to our certainty in Faith. For in the holy Hierarchy of the Church , God hath placed Watchmen most vigilant over their flocks , who suffer them not to be misled : they have discovered the very least Errors , sowen in Corners , and branded their Authors as false Teachers . Wherefore as unity in belief is the Form and Soul of that great body of the Catholick or Universal Church , so whatever Doctrine is commonly taught and received in her without any contradiction from her Pastors , is sufficiently known to be infallible . 2. They object there is no infallible Propounder of this Article of our Faith ; The Church is Infallible , Answer , Yes , 1. God shows himself the Propounder of this in the Markes of the Church , which we shall presently see . 2. As our Saviour Christ calling himself the Son of God , and working Miracles , did sufficiently , yea , infallibly evidence to the Jews , that it was true what he said : So the Church calling her self infallible , and working the like Miracles in all Ages , doth infallibly evidence to the world that it is true what she says , otherwise it would follow that God did employ his Omnipotency and Power to work Miracles in favour of an Impostor , thus cheating the world with a lye . 3. Therefore I say , the Catholick Roman Church , is the only true Church , in which the Doctrine of Christ is infallibly propounded , and certainty in Faith and Salvation to be found . This Point is of highest concern according to the Fathers ; For , it is only the Catholick Church , says Lactantius , l. 4. that hath the true Worship and Service of God : That is , the Well-spring of Truth , the dwelling place of Faith , the Temple of God , into which , whosoever entereth not , and from which , whosoever departeth , is without all hope of Life and Salvation . Whosoever is divided from her , says S. Augustine in his Epistle , 152. how laudable soever he seems to himself to live , for this only crime , that he is separated from the unity of Christ , he shall be excluded from life , and the wrath of God shall remain upon him . And again in his 50. Epistle , as a Member cut off wants the spirit of life , so a man separated from the body of Christ , cannot have the spirit of Justice , &c. They have not the Holy Ghost who are out of the Church . S. Cyprian de Unitat. Eccl. The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery , whosoever divided from this Church cleaveth to the Adulteress , he is separated from the Promises of the Church , he cannot have God for his Father , who hath not the Church to his Mother . S. Irenaeus l. 3. C. 40. in the Church God hath constituted Apostles , Prophets , Doctors , and all the rest of the Operation of the Spirit , whereof those are not partakers who repare not unto the Church ; where the Church is , there is the Spirit of God. Vincentius Lyrinensis , contr . haeres . C. 1. & 2. says , That he having very often most diligently inquired of many Holy and Learned men , how he might certainly distinguish the true Catholick Faith from all Heresies , it was ever answered him by the Law of God , and the Tradition of the Church , Divinae legis authoritate & Catholicae ecclesiae traditione . Then making to himself the common Objection of Protestants , seeing the Rule of Scripture is perfect , what necessity of joyning to it the Tradition of the Church ? He presently Answers , because all take not Scripture one way , and in the same sense , because of its deepness . All the Fathers run upon this , out of the Catholick Church , no true Religion , no Divine Faith , no infallible Guide , no sure way to Salvation , no hope of Heaven , no means to attain Eternal Happiness and Life . Wherefore God by his Divine Appointment , Order , and Decree having tyed us , and that under no less pain then the damnarion of our Souls , to live in the Unity and Communion of this Church , in which only he has placed the Chair of his Doctrine , and Channels of his Graces . I presuppose , 1. This Church may be easily known , and that by clear Marks in all Ages , and by all , she being so amply great , and Eminently high , that the Prophet Isa . Ch. 2. calls her , The Mountain of the Lords house established in the top of Mountains , and exalted above the Hills , to which all Nations should flow 2. Tat those Marks be the same now , which did evidence her in Christs , and in the Apostles time ; for all things are best conserved by the same means by which they received their being , says the Phylosophers , Conservatio continuata productio . 3. That whatever Church is found to have these Marks , should be undoubtedly acknowledged for the true one , otherwise they could not have proved her the true Church at first . This presupposed , that the Catholick Roman Church is the only true Church , I most evidently prove in short ( for this hath been often done in large volumns ) and that by a very few undoubted Signes , and as it were most legible Characters of the Primitive Church in the time of the Apostles , paralelling the one with the other . Three things are chiefly remarkable in the Apostles , and Church under them . 1. Their Sanctity and Holiness of Life . 2. The great conversion of Infidels wrought by them . 3. Their manifold and wonderful Miracles . These be the Marks of their mission , by which they show themselves to be the servants of God , to be sent by God , and that God by his Vertue and Power concurreth and cooperateth with them . Their Holy , Humble , Poor , and Austere Life , makes them like to their Master Christ , and fit Instruments for the great Employment they are going about : Miracles make their Credential Letters , and witness the fulness of their power ; Conversions are the end of their Embassy , which as it was to last till all the Nations of the earth were brought to the Unity of Faith , and bosome of the Church , according to that Promise of Christ , There shall be one shepherd , and one Fold , so their true Successors are constantly known by the same Signs in all Ages , as the undoubted Marks and Badge of the Apostles . I begin at Miracles , which I call the Apostles Credentials , and make the chief infallible Mark of the true Church , and all infallibly credible which is taught in her , as the great Seal God sets to her Doctrine . In the first Age , the Miracles of the Apostles and Disciples are set down in holy Scripture , so need no other Testimony . In the second Age , Justin Martyr quaest . 28. reporteth many wrought by the bodies , and at the Sepulchers of Martyrs , and Irenaeus , l. 2. C. 58. innumerable others for the conversion of the Gentiles . In the third Age many most great ones are wrought by S. Gregory sirnamed Thaumaturge , or worker of Miracles , related by S. Gregory Nissen in his Life , and S. Basil de Sp. Sanct. c. 29. divers whereof by the Sign of the Cross . S. Cyprian serm . de laps . relates with many others , three very strange Miracles in this Age , confirming the Real Presence . In the fourth Age , a dead body is restored to Life by the holy Cross , when it was first found by the Empress Helena , as witness Ruffinus , Nicephorus and others . Many other Miracles are wroughe by Reliques , witnessed by S. Chrysostome , orat . contr . gentes , by holy Water attested by S. Epiphanius , haer . 30. by Adoration of Christ in the Sacrament ; witness S. Gregory Nazianzen orat . 11 ▪ by Prayer to our Lady says the same Authour , in S. Cyprian , by the Merits of Martyrs , as relateth S. Ambrose Serm. 21. In the fifth Age , S. Augustine l. 22. de civit . c. 8. many by the Reliques of S. Stephen , and an house dispossessed of Devils by saying of Mass , S. Chrysostome says , by the sign of the holy Cross . Eusebius Cremon . writes , S. Hierome being dead , the blind , deaf , dumb , and sick were cured by touching and kissing his Corps . In the sixth Age , Miracles are wrought to confirm the Sacrifice of the Mass , witness S. Gregory l. 4. dial . C. 57. by the Reliques of S. Martin , as is related by S. Gregory of Tours , de Miracul . S. Martini l. 1. c. 11. Two others says S. Gregory , l. 3. dial . C. 3. by John the first , and Agapitus , both Popes . In the seventh Age , we have Miracles in defence of vowed Virginity , related by Sigibert , an . 670. wrought by Reliques , in Bede , l. 5. c. 11. By the Images of S. Anastasius , at the very sight whereof ●evils fled , and diseases were cured , in act . 2. Synod . Nicen. In the eighth Age , divers Miracles are wrought at the translation of S. Augustines Reliques from Sardinia to Ticinum , by Luitprand King of the Long●bards , after he had redeemed it with a great sum of money from the Sarazens , witness Oldardus Ep. ad Carol . Magn. A Crucifix in the City of Berith , stabbed by the Jews , bleedeth , and the blood cureth all diseases , witness Crantius with the Magdeburgians Cen. 8. In the same age Pope Leo the third , having his tongue cut , and his Eyes pulled out by the Pagans , had them both restored by the Intercession of S. Peter , as it is Recorded by Anastasius , Baronius , and many others . In the ninth Age , innumerable Miracles are done at the Tomb of S. James , and by a Picture of S. John Baptist , related by Curopalates , Baronius , and other most approved Authors , as also most famous Miracles of three Popes , Stephen the fifth , Paschalis the first , and Formosus . In the tenth Age by S. Romuald , and S. Dunstan to be seen in Surius , Baronius , &c. by touching S. Peters Chains in Sigibert , an . 965. In the approbation of the single life of Priests , and the exemplary punishment of them who opposed it ; see for this Matthew of Westminster , an . 975. And Osbert in the life of S. Dunstan . In the eleventh Age , by three Popes , Leo the 9. Victor the 2. and Gregory the 7. the Authors you have in Baronius , who with him confirm them . By S. Edward King of England , for which see Alredus in his life ; by S. Anselme Bishop , S. Odilo Abbot , S. Chunegunde Virgine , related by Surius and other Writers of their lives . In the twelfth Age , the Miracles of S. Malachy , Apostle of Ireland , are recounted by S. Bernard ( whom even Calvin calls a holy man ) one whereof confirmeth Extreme Unction , and another the Real Presence . Many likewise are to be seen in the Life of S. Bernard himself , and one most notable in confirmation of the whole Catholick Roman Faith. In the thirteenth Age , we have the many famous Miracles of S. Dominic , S. Francis of Assisium , S. Antony of Padua , S. Lovis of France , S. Celestine Pope , and S. Clare witnessed by S. Antonine , S. Bonaventure , Petrus Cardin. Camerasc . Baronius and others , all most renowned Writers . In the fourteenth Age , the Miracles of S. Nicholas Tolentine , S. Roch , S. Katherin of Siena , are Chronicled by S. Antonine , Surius , Baronius , &c. In the fifteenth Age , S. Antonine 3. par . hist . tit . 23. testifieth thirty eight dead persons to have been restored to life , by the Prayers and Merits of S. Vincent . Many sick are also cured by the Intercession of our blessed Lady , at her house in Loreto , and the Turkish Army terrified by Miracles from sacking it , as Reports Tursellin l. 2. hist . laur . In the sixteenth Age , many great Miracles done by S. Francis of Paula , S. Ignatius of Loyola , and S. Terese are Authentickly proved in the process of Canonization , and the Authours of their lives . In the same Age , S. Francis Xavier , called commonly the Apostle of Japonie , and the first Jesuit sent to the Indies , raiseth four from death , and worketh innumerable other Miracles attested by the Viceroys , Governours , Prelates , Pastors , and people of those Countries , in which it is reported he Baptized about twelve hundred thousand souls with his own hand . Some moderate Protestan●● even honour his memory , and make mention of his admirable Conversions ; and if others should deny his Miracles , we might come to that S. Augustine calls the greatest of all , to wit , that he should have converted so many , and wrought none . Many thousand more Miracles are recorded in the Writings of the Fathers in all Ages , in the Monuments of the Church , yea , and in the Histories of each particular Christian Nation ; as in France , that famous apparition of our Saviour Christ in the Consecrate Host at Paris , in the time of King Lovys the 9. to which were eye witnesses , most inhabitants of that great City : In Spain , that miraculous Cross placed on the Altar by an Angel , at the conversion of a King of the Moors , desirous to hear Mass , which is kept in the Town of Caravaca , and worketh Miracles to this day . In Italy , the wonderful Translation of that holy house wherein our blessed Saviour lived at Nazareth , to Loreto , at which so many Miracles have been wrought by the Intercession of our Lady , and attested by so great Gifts and Offerings , that of a mean Cottage , it is now the richest Chappel in the World. In Flanders , the miraculous cures at our Ladies Chappels of Hall and Sichem , written in two Books , by that Famous and Learned Authour Justus Lipsius , and of which he giveth this Testimony in his first Chapter ; Behold , things done in the Eyes of us all , behol● them celebrated with the Concourse , Applause , Fruit and Benefit of whole Countreys ; what truth can there be in Humane Affairs , if no credit be given to these things ? In Poland , that most notorious Miracle of a man raised to life after he had been seven years dead , and brought before the King sitting in Justice , to witness he had sold such a piece of Land to the Church . In England we have from their best Authors , how in a publick Assembly the opposers of a single life in Priests are all smothered under the ruines of the room , only S. Dunstan and those who with him defended it , being miraculously preserved ; where also the many Miracles of S. Winefride , Virgin , to the great good and constant cure of the multitude having recourse to her Chppel and Fountain , continue even in our days . In Scotland , a Miracle makes the armes of one of our chief Cities , others of S. Mungo , S. Fiaker , S. Margaret , &c. are famous in our Chronicles , yea the ever continued Miracles in many places consecrated in old time to God and his Saints , make the people as yet to frequent the very rubbish and ruines of our Chappels . Now to reflect a little upon what I have said . 1. The Miracles I here speak of , are for the most part the same , or like to those which Christ and his Apostles did 〈◊〉 as the suddain cure of naturally incurable Diseases , the raising of the Dead , the casting out of Devils , &c. 2. They have been done in all Ages , in the Catholick Roman Church , and in no other . 3. The Workers of them , are Popes , Bishops , Priests , Eremits , Monks , Fryars , Jesuits , and others , all knowingly opposers of Protestancy ; all living in Communion with the Sea of Rome . 4. They are witnessed by the most Learned , Judicious , and Vertuous Witnesses of the Christian World , yea are so notoriously Evident , that Hereticks cannot but avouch them , with the Centurists of Magdeburg and others . 5. Many of them are not only Personal Miracles , Witnessing the holiness of the Person that Worketh them ( as these which serve for the Cononization of our Saints ) but also Dogmatical , confirming our Doctrine against Protestants , as being wrought by Reliques and Invocation of Saints ; the Sign of the holy Cross , holy Water , saying of Mass , Exorcisms , Pilgrimages to holy Chappels of our blessed Lady and other Saints ; by real Apparitions of our Saviour Christ in form of a Man in the Consecrate Host , &c. What then can Protestants Answer with any show of Probability , to this first Mark of the Catholick Roman Church ? Shall they grant a false Religion to have so many Miracles , and theirs which is the true , to have none ? or shall Christs promise in S. John Ch. 14. made to faithfull Believers prove false , that Protestancy may at least seem to be true ? They will rather deny these Miracles which I have brought , and all others since the Apostles , for their Negative Faith , Engageth them ever to a strong Denial , as all their New Religion is but a denying of most Antient and known Christian Truths ; Yet shall any man upon their bold denyal distrust such a croud of so Famous Witnesses , and Writers ? Shall they say many Miracles have been fained ? so some Gospels ; but what maketh that more against these of the Catholick Roman Church , then those of Christ and his Apostles ? What has not been counterfeited ? Gold , Silver , Jewels , Wines ; doth it follow there be none true , or that no man can distinguish things Sophisticated from pure and real ? Could not S. Justin , S. Irenaeus , S. Chrysostome , S. Basile , and S. Augustine , relating so many done by Reliques , and Invocation of Saints , judge of true ones ? Or were S. Athanasius , and S. Hierom , relating the Miracles of S. Anthonie , S. Gregory of Nisse , and S. Basile , those of S. Gregory Thaumaturgus , Severus Sulpitius , and S. Gregory of Tours , those of S. Martin , Theodoret , those of S. Nicolas , S. Gregory the great , those of S. Bennet , S. Bonaventure , those of S. Francis , so easily deceived ? shall they deny the Workers of such Miracles , to have been Members of the Roman Church , or them to have been wrought in Confirmation of the present Romish Faith ? But it is by saying of Mass , making the sign of the Cross , Invocating of Saints , honouring of Reliques , they have been done . Shall they have recourse in fine to the false Miracles of Infidels , Hereticks , Magicians , the Antichrist or Devil ? So did the Arians , Eunomians , and other Hereticks , as reports S. Ambrose in his Sermon of S. Gervase and Protase , S. Hierome against Vigilantius , and Victor Uticensis in his second Book of the persecution of the Wandales , and is the same the Jews did say to Christ , but more then either Men or Devils can do . All those things which Hereticks , or Infidels have done , or that Antichrist shall do , being but like these of Pharaoh's Magicians , little curious Trifles of a short lasting , and that may proceed from Natural Causes : But so are not the Miracles I speak of , for they are the very same with those of Christ and his Apostles ; they are attested by the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church , who could best judge of true and real ones ; and as they have been wrought in the Catholick Roman Church , and in her only in all Ages , so in every Age have they brought in some Nation of Infidels to the bosome of the same Church . This is the second thing remarkable in the Apostles , and no less Conspicuous in the Catholick Roman Church . Whosoever then desires to see this second Mark of the true Church verified in the Roman Church ▪ Let him but cast an Eye over all the Nations which were ever converted from Infidelity to Christianity since the Apostles , and then but take a view in their respective Histories and Records , who were their Apostles ? out of which Church they were sent , and to which Church they did at first bring in their Proselytes and Converts . And he shall find all this great Work to have been done by no other then Popes , Bishops , Priests , and Religious men , all living in Communion with the Roman Church , all acknowledging her Headship over other Churches , all teaching her Doctrine , all submitting to her Authority , and all propagating her Faith. See for this in general , the Theater of the Conversion of all Nations , Written by Mermannius , and the History of the Church by Baronius , and Spondanus , ●ll in particular , the Records of each Nation ; yea and the Magdeburgian Centurists , though Protestants : It being so notoriously evident , that even our adversaries cannot deny it , and if they should , the very Walls of Churches , Chappels , Monasteries , adorned with Crosses , Statues , Images , and other marks of the present Roman Religion , might sufficiently prove it against them . Pope Alexander the 1. is glorious for the conversion of so many of the Roman Senators and Nobles : Pope Sylvester , for that of the first Christian Emperour Constantine the great , the Bulgarians are converted by Pope Nicolas the 1. the Bohemians by Stephen the 7. Norway by Adrian the 4. the Pomeranians by Nicolas the 3. all Popes . S. Elutherius Pope , sends to this our Island two of his Clergy , who convert King Lucius and his Subjects ; Scotland ows its conversion to Pope Victor by his Envoys and Legates ; Ireland to Pope Celestine , who sent thither S. Patrick , England to S. Augustine sent by S. Gregory the great : Clovis first Christian King of France is converted by S. Rhemigius Bishop of Rhemes ; the Franconians by S. William ; the Thuringians , Hassits , and a great part of Germany , by S. Boniface ; the Flemins by Eligius ; the Danes and Swedes by Ansgratius ; the Sclavonians and Hungarians by the two Adelberts ; the Polonians by Aegidius , Tusculanus sent by Pope John the 13. run thus through all the other Kingdomes and Provinces of the Christian World , you shall constantly find the same : And this as in all former Ages , so in ours , witness the Conversions of the Japonians , Indians , Brasilians , Mexicans , Peruans , Canadas , Algonquins , and many other Savage Nations in America , the Coasts of Afric , and remotest corners of the Earth , where the Catholick Roman Church ever like to her self in the Primitive times , and her Pastors and Preachers to the Apostles , continue their Labours to this day , with such success by the blessings of God , that they have converted ten to the Christian Faith , for one Protestants have perverted . But what Kingdom , Province , or Town did ever Protestancy enter in , which it did not find Catholick ? Never so many Sects of Hereticks , yet not one goes to convert Infidels , all their business is with Papists , and all their Forces employed against the Roman Church , a clear Demonstration she is the only true Church , so generally opposed by them all . But whatever they can do is in vain , shee being built on the Rock , against which all the Powers of Hell shall not prevail . Their Disputes serve for n●thing but to clear her Doctrine , their Controversies but to confirm her Faith , their Persecutions but to Crown her sufferings , their unchristian Maxims against the Evangelical Counsels of voluntary Poverty , vowed Chastity , and a retired , humble , devote , austere , and obedient life , but to make more gloriously appear , the incomparable Sanctity , Holiness , and Vertues of her Saints . And this is the third thing remarkable in the Apostles and Primitive Christians , which in all following Ages hath so gloriously shined in the Catholick Roman Church , their examplary holiness in following Christ by renouncing to the World , living chast , contemning both Riches and Pleasures , their holy hatred of themselves , the hardship of their travels , and labours for the conversion of others , their continual Fasting , and frequent Prayer . This Mark of the Churches Sanctity is set down in the Creed , I believe the holy Catholick Church ; It is confirmed by Authority of Scripture , S. Paul in the beginning of all his Epistles almost , calling the Churches to which he writes , holy , as in that to the Romans , Corinthians , Ephesians , Philippians , and Colossians , as S. Peter calls the Church generally the holy Nation , it is also Visible to all ; as the goodness of a Tree is seen by the Fruit , so the holiness of the Church , by her Works . Now let us see in what Church the greatest Lights of the Christian Religion have shined ? what Church hath most Monuments of Christian piety ? in what Church the Examples of Christ and his Apostles , have been most narrowly followed ? Who have built most glorious and goodly Edifices of Churches to the honour and for the service of God ; who so many Monasteries to harbour his more devoted Servants ; who so many Hospitals for the poor ? who best Evidenced true Faith by good Works ? who have most put in practice all the hardest Maxims of the Gospel ? who taken greatest pains for the Salvation of Souls ? who show'n greatest love towards God , and greatest charity to their neighbour ? whether Papists giving so liberally to God and his Church , or Protestants taking back what they had given ? By their Fruits ye shall know them , says our Saviour Christ , our actions give testimony of our Faith. The holy Fathers writing so many lives of our Saints , witness enough their unparallel'd piety , yea and God himself working so many Miracles by them . How many Princes and Monarches in the Catholick Roman Church , have laid down their Crowns at the foot of the Cross , have quitted Kingdoms , renounced pleasures , forsaken the World , taking themselves to a poor , humble , mortified , and austere life ? how many thousands , yea millions of Eremits , Monks , and other Religious persons , men and women have totally consecrated their lives to the service of God ? No Age , no Order , no degree of Persons in this Church wanteth most Eminent men in Sanctity and Holiness : Above 30. Popes have been all most glorious Martyrs , besides many more Saints , as our Gregories , Leo's , Celestines , &c. our holy Bishops are in number above the Stars of the firmament , and our Priests and Religious like the Sand of the Sea : S. Henry Emperour , S. Lovis K. of France , S. Edward King of England , S. Malcolme and S. David Kings of Scotland , with S. Helena Mother to Constantine the great , S. Margaret , S. Cunegund , S. Elizabeth , and many others all Kings and Queens , have shown the Sanctity of our Monarchs . See the holy Court , and History of the Church for the holiness of so many amongst the Nobility and Gentry , and the Lives of our Saints , and Writings of the Fathers , for the eminent virtues of innumerable ●f others , both amongst the Gentry and Commons . S. Chrysostome , S. Ambrose , S. Augustine , S. Bernard , and other holy Fathers having honoured their Memory , and Festival days with most Eloquent Sermons in their praise , as God by his Omnipotency and Power , hath sealed their sanctity with undoubted Miracles , both in their Lives , and in their Deaths . What can all the Sectaries which have ever been , shown like to this , or what can they say against it ? shall it be that all are not Saints even amongst our most Austere Religious men ? but neither were all Saints amongst the Apostles ; and the Primitive Church even in their time wanted not its scandals , which showeth it was not only composed of the Elect : the total separation of the good from the bad , is not the work of men now , but of the Angels at the last day ; till then as the Tares grow up in the best Fields of Corn , so shall there be ever many wicked and scandalous in the true Church . But out of it , no Saints , no safety for sinners , no Sacraments that sanctifie , no means of reconciliation with God. I insist not here any further on the other Marks of the true Church , as their Antiquity , Universality , Unity , and the very name of Catholick , which are to be found at length verified of the Roman Church , in many whole and large Volumes . No other Church having e●er been generally called by this name , or known under it , but all by their private Denominations , as the Arians , Pelagians , Eutychians , Macedonians , &c. in Old ; so the Lutherians and Calvinists now . And if we call this Catholick or Universal Church also the Roman Church , we speak with S. Paul calling the Catholick Faith spread through the whole world , theirs . No other Church having constantly appeared visible in her Pastors and people , by a continued succession from the Apostles , which held S. Augustine in her , Tenet me in Ecclesiâ , says he , Successie facerdotum , I am holden in the Church by the succession of Priests , then he reckons out the only high Priests and Bishops of Rome as the lawful Successors of S. Peter , as in his 162. Epistle , he says , in the Roman Church has ever been the Authority of the Apostolick Sea , In ecclesiâ Romanâ semper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit authoritas . No other having unity in Faith , or the means to preserve it by General Councils , which have all been holden in her . No other , and specially the Protestant Church , having either Universality or Antiquity , as is clear from their late Rise , and little Extent . Whatever Protestants and other Sectaries sophistically or Subtilly Object against all this , is but weak , and should stumble none , many stronger Objections , Atheists , Infidels , and Hereticks have made against God , our Saviour Christ , and the holy Scripture . The first Principles most clear by the light of Nature , suffer their Objections , whence the Scepticks amongst Philosophers , as the Socinians amongst Hereticks , those admitting of nothing as unquestionably clear , and these as infallibly true . Wherefore to conclude all , I have said : the Catholick Roman Church being so gloriously marked , so generally attested , and so notoriously known to be the true Church established by Christ and his Apostles , ever conspicuous and visible , ever working Miracles , converting Infidels , making Saints ; ever holding Councils , deciding controversies , keeping unity , opposing Hereticks , and maintaining true Faith upon Solid and Infallible Grounds , having so clear testimony from the Fathers , from Scripture , from God ; having charisma veritatis certum , the Gift and Grace of certain and infallible Truth , says S. Irenaeus ; origines firmas , sure beginnings saith Tertullian , Veritatem undequaque munitam , verity solidly grounded and guarded , says S. Epiphani●s , haeres . 55. authoritatem stabilissimam , most solid and constant Authority , says S. Augustine , Ep. ●8 . may 〈◊〉 not say justly with our Countryman Richard of S. Victor , l. 1. de Trinit . c. 2. Si error est quem credimus à te decepti sumus . If it be Error we do believe ( in this Church , and upon her Authority ) it is thou ( O God ) who hath deceived us , for with such signs this Doctrine is confirmed , that it can be from no other but thee . Let the impartial Reader here compare both Protestant Grounds and Doctrine with ours , and see , after all their Objections and Cavils , what they bring for their new , doubtful , and inconstant Opinions , against our old infallible and constant Faith : what against our just claim , our clear right , our long and uninterrupted possession . They come in with the Scripture in hand , as the Fundamental Law against which there can be no prescription , but what Scripture , I pray you , save that they have wrested from us ? olim possideo , prior possideo , says Tertullian , it was first delivered to us , we have it of old , and we conserve it whole and intire . But not so Protestants ; the many Books they reject shows it is but like a torn bond in their hands , blotted in as many places , as there be things put in of new , or others rased out in their Bibles . And then as they bring it , it is altogether forceless , and can make no security as a rent Charter without Subscription , Witness , or Seal : Gods Subsciption would be seen and acknowledged if it were presented by them , as at first by the Apostles with Supernatural 〈…〉 Motives : witnesses , if they could show it handed down from age to age by infallible Propounders ; his-Seal in Miracles . But the Protestant Church granting her self to be fallible , and being destitute both of infallible Motives of credibility and miracles , can be no sure propounder of Gods Word , neither can it as propounded by her , be any sure ground to us . Yea , Examine well all the Principles Protestants build their Pretended Reformation upon , and you shall find them all mearly Whimsecal , Paradoxal ▪ and improbable . For what Probability can there be , 1. Of what they say against us , that the Popish Church ( as they call it ) which they grant to be most antient , should have continued so long , and ever possessed the greatest part of the Christian World holding Councils , condemning Heresies , converting Infidels , working Miracles , and that the Protestant Church which they will have to be the Catholick or Universal , all this time was no where to be found , never once made mention of by any Author ; without Councils , Statutes , or Laws published to the World ; never converting one Kingdom , opposing one Heresie , having one Writer of note witnessing her Faith and Doctrine , her doings or sufferings , her Pastors or People : That the antient Congregation diffused through the whole World , should be Heretical , and the new one in some few corners be Orthodox : That corruption of Doctrine did enter so insensibly into the Roman Church , that no Councils , no Fathers did see or censure it , who have observed many lesser things in private men ; that all the Fathers I have quoted in my 6. Section , should have unanimously holden ever since the Apostles , what Protestants call Popish Errors , or that so many Learned men in the Roman Church , who have dived into the very depth of most abstract Sciences , could not see before Luther , what in Scripture was clear . 2. What probability for what they vent of their first Apostles and Reformers ? that God did send one Apostate Friar ( who in the Monastery as he confesseth lived so mortified , chast , and devote , but quitting it , is so hurried with his passions of Lust , and stings of Conscience even for this his new Doctrine , as may be seen in the Preface of his Works in Latine , and his Table Conferences ) without any visible mark of his Mission , to reform both his Word and Church , in opposition to all her ordinary Pastors at that time : that the Church before him ( I mean Luther ) as he himself glories , should have been destitute of the true Letter and sense of Scripture , of true Worship , true form of Government , &c. that notwithstanding so many solemn promises made by God , the Word should not depart out of the mouths of Pastors , nor the true Church be so much as obscured , yet that Christ should have suffered the light of the Gospel to be under a Bushel , and the Cuhrch invisible for more then a thousand years : That his Reformation should be the work of God , and the world ever worse since it : That Protestancy should bring back true Faith , which is divided into so many Heresies , and has caused so many Troubles , Divisions and Schisms . 3. What show of probability or solidity in Protestant grounds ? that the ground of Faith ( which they will have to be sole Scripture as every one reads , and understands ) should support all the Heresies in the World : That this Ground given us for keeping of Unity , should make all our Divisions in Religion : To deny the Authority and Tradition of the Church infallible , and yet take Scripture on it ; that the whole Representative Church in a General Council is not infallible in its Decrees , and yet private men reading Scripture are infallible in what they believe : That what was at the Margent in their first Bibles , would be now put in the Text : That pure Scripture should be a cleer Ground for Protestancy , and not one Point specifical , or special to it , to be found in Scripture in express words : In fine , that Protestants should have the pure Word , and rely on the Originals ; their best Writers granting they have not found so much as an Authentick Copy any where . If you will see what probability at last they have either for their Doctrine or Church , consider amongst Protestants ( with the Author of a late Answer in Writ ) Faith without Unity , a Body without united Members , a Law without a Judg , a Church without an Altar , Religion without a Sacrifice , Sacraments that do not sanctifie , Divine Service without Religious Ceremonies , Preachers without a call , Doctrine without Infallibility , Belief without a ground ; Commands impossible to be kept , Exhortation to what is not in our power , Reward without Merit , Reprobation without demerit , Sin punished where there is no free will , new Apostles without Mission or Miracles , Reformation without Authority , the private Spirit against the whole Church , new lights against old revealed Verities , single mens Opinions against the common consent of the Fathers , Scripture received or rejected upon the Catalogue of the Jews ; in a word , wavering Pastors , unsetled Government , unstable Faith. FINIS . 
A56711	----	A manifest touching M.W.F. aversion from the Protestant congregation And his conversion to the Catholique Church presented to the right wor. ll [sic] Sir A.P. his much honoured father, and his other best friends, for their better satisfaction and his owne iustification. Medical Women's Federation (Great Britain) This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A56711 of text R218671 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing P85A). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 123 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 49 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A56711 Wing P85A ESTC R218671 99830243 99830243 34693 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A56711) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 34693) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2035:11) A manifest touching M.W.F. aversion from the Protestant congregation And his conversion to the Catholique Church presented to the right wor. ll [sic] Sir A.P. his much honoured father, and his other best friends, for their better satisfaction and his owne iustification. Medical Women's Federation (Great Britain) H. P. [16], 77, [1] p. s.n.], [S.l. : Permissu superiorum anno 1650. Dedication signed: H.P. Includes errata. The "F" in the author's initials on title page has been altered in ink to a "P". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Catholic Church -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Catholic converts -- Early works to 1800. A56711 R218671 (Wing P85A). civilwar no A manifest touching M.W.F. aversion from the Protestant congregation. And his conversion to the Catholique Church presented to the right wor M. W. F 1650 21439 5 0 0 0 0 0 2 B The rate of 2 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-02 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-02 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A MANIFEST TOVCHING M. W. F. Aversion from the Protestant Congregation . AND HIS Conversion to the Catholique Church Presented to the Right Wor. ll Sir A. P. his much honoured Father , and his other best Friends , for their better satisfaction and his owne Iustification . Viam iniquitatis amoue à me : & de lege tua miserere mei . Viam veritatis elegi : iudicia tua non oblitus . Psal. 118. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno 1650. TO HIS HONORABLE DEARE VNCLE S. ir H. W. BARONETTE &c. Dominus det vobis suam Pacem . SIR . Hauing obtained à copy of my deare deceased Brother Williams Manifest which in his life was presēted vnto my Father , I make bold to addresse it vnto you in print , as more legible and vsefull , to fulfill and execute the will of my Brother , who was in his life most entirely deuoted to you , and most singularly Zealous of your souls salvation : which according as my bounden duty requires I equally tender and affect . I can not tell what acceptance it may relish with you , in respect of your olde age ; yet sure I am , were you trauelling vnto Hierusalem , and should be informed by him or me , though inferiour in years , of the great dangers assuredly you would fall into , if you held on in the new way you had commenced your iourney in , doubtlesse you would take it maruelous kindly of vs , and as an argument of our true respectfull loue towards you , that by our notice you were prevented from falling in to the hands of bloodsucking enimies , or being swalowed vp in some vnknowne gulfe in your new passage . This is now you case : you are traueling in your Resolution to the beauenly Hierusalem : but vnder fauour and without offence , giue me leaue to tell you , that if you proceede in this new way , and new Religion you are in , the perills are unspeakably great , for that all going and holding this new way ar robbed : not of their temporall wealth , nor of their temporall life depriued by drowning , but by à Diabolicall crew and an Infernall gulfe spoiled of their sowles , to their owne irreparable dammage , and the opprobrious disgrace of Christ most pretious blood spilt in vaine for them . And howbeit this new way you walke in , may peradnenture seeme to you to be right and secure ; Yet vndoutedly except you turne out of it , in the end it will leade you to endlesse perdition . You can not be ignorant , that the Origine of this new way , and occasion of putting our poore distressed country-men out of the old approued path and good way , in which our auncestours walking , securely arriued to heaven ▪ was the sacrilegious auarice and insatiable lust of King Henry the eight ( in whom alone , not I , but , Sir Walter Raulie affirmes , all the markes of à Tyrāt might be found in case they were lost ) who as all know that are versant in the hictory and tradition of our Nation , withdrew himsefe and the Realme from the obeyssanee of the Catholique Church , the old and only assured way to Saluation . Deus vnus est , & Christus vnus , & vna Ecclesia & Cathedravna super Petram , Domini voce fundata Saith S. Cyprian l. 1. Epist. 8. This Henry the eight because the Bishop of Rome S. Peters successour and Christs Viccar on earth would not dispensc with him , to put à way his lawfull wife Queene Catherine of Spaine of blessed memory : he vsurped and tooke vpon him to be head of the English Church , and put àway most iniuriously his Queene . Which vnheard of arrogancy of his vsurped spirituall supremacy how God hath punished in his Successours , is too too sad , and too too fresh to rehearse . Patres nostri peccauerunt & nos portauimus iniquitates eorum , If God hath not his due in his vicegerent of his Church , it is no wonder that Caesar wbo by the grace and fauour of God temporaly gouerneth , hath not his due obedience from his subiects , and that they vsurpe à power ouer him : In quo quis peccat in hoc punietur . And seeing so much innocent blood of Catholiques haue beene spilt , and so many Priests slaine , as Prophets sent to reclaime her , I doe not wonder that God after so long à patient frustrated expectation of our Countrys penance and retourne , doth now bring forth the yron rod of the sword , and chastise the Kingdome with so much effusion of blood to auenge the contempt of his house the Catholique Church , the innocent members and Pastors put to death , and that the Bishops and others Who so much striued to put down Catholique Religion , should now , by the iust iudgments of God , be pulled downe , and haue their Church and Religion destroyed by themselues . I will set the Aegyptians against the Aegyptians and the brethren shall fight against the brethren Esay 19. Vaegenti peccatrici , woe woe to à sinfull nation , which by its hainous schisme and heresy hath forsaken God ; teaching and speaking in his Catholique Church : which hath blasphemed holy Israel , and followed its owne giddy priuate spirit which seeth nothing aright : where euery one at his pleasure , carues & cut to himselfe à Religion out of the Scriptures interpreted according to their owne priuate and vnwarranted spirits : as if all were Apostles , all Prophets , all Doctours all Pastours contrary to the Ecclesiasticall order and Hierarchy instituted by Christ our Sauiour ; as witnesses the Apostle S. Paul . 1. ad Cor 12. But alas will our poore distressed country neuer rise and retourne againe to her Mother the Catholique Church , that shee may haue accesse to God as à Father ? Nunquid qui cadit non resurget & qui auersus est non reuertetur , quare ergo auersus est populus iste in Hierusalem , auersione contentiosa , apprehenderunt mendacium & noluerunt reuerti ? &c. nullus est qui agat poenitentiam super peccato suo dicens quid feci &c. The turtle Doue , the Swalow , the Storke haue obserued the time of their comeing , but my people ( saith God by his Prophet ) haue not knowne the iudgment of the Lord . Hier. 8. And for as much as our poore Countrymen will not reflect vpon the manifest iudgments of God vpon the Kingdome for its reuolt by Schisme and Heresy from the Catholique Church : therfore is shee become desolate Desolatione desolata est omnis terra quia non est qui recogitet corde . Hieri . 12. Wherfore , Deare Sir , to preuent the maine misery of miseries , since God of his immense Clemency hath lent you space to returne ( whilest thousands , and thousands in these calamities of our Nation are ingulfed in the bottomlesse pitt of hell ) promptly obey the voice of God by the prementioned Prophet Heremie Aske of the old paths which is the Good way , and walke in it , and you shall finde refreshing for your soules . Cap. 6. v. 16. But aske timely with all possible diligence , breaking with all worldly considerations of honour , riches , or pleasures , for the loue of sweet Iesus , who not only endured for your sake all contradictions and opprobrious disgraces , but layd out all he was worth , euery droppe of blood , yea his most pretious life , that you might liue for euer in eternall glorie , in neuer ending pleasures , and the rich fruition and possession of his immense Maiesty , the All Good , the supreame Good , and the soueraigne sole Good . Let not momentary pleasure procure you an everlasting paeine , nor let á short sufferance depriue you of an infinite reward . Breuis voluptas , sempiterna poena : modica passio , infinita gloria , Saith the Seraphicall Father Saint Francis . Therefore whilest you haue time work well for your soule , the one thing which is necessary : differre not so consequent an affaire , least forgetting God in your life , he forsake you in your death bedde , according to that dreadfull saying of S. Augustine . Hac animaduersione percutitur peccator , vt moriens obliuiscatur sui , qui dum viueret oblitus est Dei . Aske then I beseech you timely of the old paths : which is the Good way , and walke in it , and you shall finde refreshing for your soule , These old paths , which is the Good way in which all the godly and holy persons walked to the heauenly Hierusalem , is the infallible iudgment of the supreame Pastours and Gouenours of Gods Church , which they followed as the guide of faith and necessary way of Salvation . In the old law it was strictly commaunded by almighty God . Exod 17. insomuch as whosoeuer should be so proud , as that he would not obey the order and commaund of the Cheife Priest , who was the iudge in Ecclesiasticall affaires , he was to die : This also in the beginning and foundation of the new law our B. Sauiour so strictly commaunded as he that would not obediently harken to the Church , he was to be reputed ( not as one capable of life euerlasting ) but as à beathen and publicane , that is , à person out of the state of saluation . This was the way S. Austen ( whom euen the Protestants affirme to haue beene à most excellent wittnes of Antiquity , as liuing about the Primitiue times of Christs Church ) tooke to resolue himselfe infallibly in doubts of Religion , as is to be seene in diuers places of his diuine workes ; finally this also is the finall and continuall way in all ages since , all Orthodoxe professours haue folowed in the determination of controuersies of faith , as is manifest by the perusall of the Ecclesiasticall Records . This way did my deceased Brother take to resolue himselfe , employing all his cares to finde out the true Church of Christ , that is the Catholique Church : which the Apostles , in their Creed , only teach vs to belieue at all times , it being true at all times , to say , I beleeue in the holy Ghost , the holy Catholique Church : and to rest himsefe touching all points of faith in her iudgmēt , she being infallible therin , as perpetually being taught by the holy Ghost all truth and no errour . He sought humbly with perseuerance , and through Gods mercifull goodnes found it out'seeke also and you shall finde . Shall you vouchsafe to peruse impartially this his Manifest I am confident it will contribute much direction to the knowledge and embracement therof , to the glory of God , the ioy of the Angells and heauenly Saints , the saluatiō of your soule and comfort of your best friends , among whom he is one , who will not cease to pray our Blessed Lord and Sauiour , that he will illuminate the darknes of yours , my other friends , and Countrymens soules , that he will giue you à true faith , an assured hope , à perfect Charity ; and endue you with the knowledge of him : that vnited to the Catholique Church , in all things all manner of wayes , you may accomplish his holy pleasure in this life , and in the next , enioying him with all the Saints , you may sing his mercies for euer . Which is , and shall be the dayly praier of him , who humbly begging that the necessary discharge of his bounden duty for your soules Good , may finde pardon for his freedome , remaines euer as he professeth and subscribeth . On the Vigill of all Saints . 1650. HONORABLE DEARE SIR . Your most dutifull and affectionate poore Nephew . H. P. TO THE READER . ALLTHOVGH to some it may seeme superfluous to print any thing in this nature , for any of our Countrymen , for that the present confusion and destruction of the English Church is manifest to all , who know what belongeth either to the Hierarchie , doctrine or discipline thereof , By which it is evident their Religion was neuer Scripturall , but parlamentary , founded on the changeable vote of à Maior parte ; Yet to satisfy the will of the dead , I haue done it , to the end it may the more easilie be communicated to all his Protestant friends , as it vvas by him intended . Some happily might haue expected in the publication , I vvould haue diuided it into certaine Chapters , and in the end of them , according as occasion required , haue confirmed vvhat therein is said or supposed , vvith some additions . But I am as vvell acquainted vvith the humour of the times , vvhich loatheth prolix tracts , as I am vvith the multiplicity of mine ovvne occasiōs , vvhich vvill not permit any such fraternall office : Besides that it is my intention only to print it according to the Copy of the Originall , vvhich is in the hand of à Protestant friēd vvho is à man of qualitie . I could truly haue vvished that I had had the benefit of those Protestant books , he perused in order to this Manifest , that I might haue put the forme and yeare of the editions of these Authours he cites , in regard the seuerall editions and change of the forme in the editions , sometimes in quartò : another time in folio , or octauo , make the citations not so easilie to be found out as othervvise : besides many enlargements in the latter editions , vvhich disorders the text of the former ; yet this in part is obserued by the Authour . In the 14. page I knovv not hovv the quotations of M. Bruges , Broughton and D. Whitaker vvere omitted : but knovv that M. Bruges vvordes are in his 6. Section of his Apologie , and M. Broughton in his , aduertisment to the Bishops . M. Whitakers in his Ansvver to M. William Reinolds pag. 225. As for the faults escaped in the printing , I must in the Printers behalfe , craue thy charity to couer his defects , for that he vvas à stranger to our language ; to say nothing of the ill caracter of the Manuscript , vvhich for the orthographie and mispointing must pleade his pardon : for vvhat is othervvise materiall , I haue represented vvith the correction , leauing the rest to thy charity , and recommending thee to svveet IESVS our Blessed Sauiours fauorable mercy and protection . ERRATA . PAg 3. linea 17. In steed of their read your . P. 4. l. 11. ouer vvauetring . ouervveening . P. 16. this . his P. 12. & alibi infalloble . Infallible P. 22. & 23. & 31. insepable . Inseparable P. 27. Champpon . Champion P. 38. Conditions . Traditions P. 30. Praeches . Preachers P. 37. tho . the P. 39. Mose . Moyses . P. 4. Antinomay . Antinomians P. 50. Alleagtion . Allegation P. 54. & 58. Maine . Many P. 62. Heathers Heathens Ibid : put out Math. 28. P. 63. Captiuite . Captiuate Ibid. Madmes . Madnesse THE CONTENTS . THE cause of vvriting this manifest . pag. 1. The reall Motiues of making his Search into matters of Religion . p. 2. A fitt disposition for the finding out the truth of Religion . p. 4. The false deating of Protestant vvriters acknovvledged by themselues . p. 6. The blasphemous absurdities of Protestants auouching the Church to haue perished . p. 7 The vnion of Sectaries vvhich principally consistes in their common conspiracy against the Romane and Catholique Church . VVhat it argues p. 8. The reason vvhy none vvith à safe conscience can adheare to the English Church . p 9. The guile full deceipt of Heritickes pretending to flie to the Scripture . p. 10. VVhether Protestants haue infallibly any true Scripture to dispute out of , or to build their faith on . from the 10. to the 13. Theire falsifying the Scriptures and vnconscionable dealing in commending them to the people , for the pure vvord of God . p. 14. That Protestants can not proue any thing assuredly out of Scripture . p. 16. The cunning of Heretickes in affirming the Church can erre , & that they take avvay all meanes of ending controuersies in Religion . p. 17. The manifold old heresies Protestants haue renevved . p. 18. to the 20. Their contempt of the Churches authority makes them guilty of Antichristian pride . p. 20. VVhat effect the consideration of the Prementioned absurdities vvrought . p. 21. The perpetuall visibility or succession of Pastours as the marke of Christes Church ( vvhich is but one ) established . p. 22. of vvhich also p. 66. &c. That the Fathers fled therevnto to confute heretikes . p. 23. to 26. proued . The Argument demonstrating that only the Romane Church is Christs true Church founded on the inseparable marks therof . p. 26. Protestants Confessions that their Church vvas not in the ages before Luther , but that truth was vnknovvne an vniuersall Apostacy ouer spreading the vvorld till his coming . p. 27. to 31. The consequence dravvn from their style of Reformed Church incompatible in points of faith vvith Christs true Church . p. 30. Their euasions of the Argument confuted . p. 31. A triall by expresse Scripture of the controuerted points of Religion . p. 32. to 38. Protestants impious dealing vvith Scriptures . p. 39. to 43. A Triall by the auncient Fathers according to Protestants ovvne Confessions p. 44. The deepe hypocrisy of Ievvel the English Protestants grand champion in Appealing to the Fathers . p. 47. The vanity also of Witthaker therin p. 48. Also VVillets diabolicall dissimulation in that point . p. 49. The exeerable blasphemy vvhich folovveth from Protestāts pretēded Reformation of the Church . p. 51. A Further prosecution of the Argument against other Sectes . p. 53. Protestants Confessions in behalfe of the Romane Church that she vvas the true Church and that she never fell . p. 55. to 61. The issue or result of the former discourse , and the Authours Resolution . p. 61. 62. &c. An Ansvver to the obiection of differring his Conuersion to the Romane Church . p. 72. The Fathers testimonies of her . p. 68. &c. The Conclusion and reason vvhy he so much vseth the Protestants confessions and testimonies . p. 75. M. W. P. MANIFESTE TO HIS FRIENDS IN IVSTIFICATION Of his abandoning the English Church and becoming Catholique . BEINGE not ignorant , but very sensible how falsely my brother is voyced to haue seduced me ( such is theire phrase they please to vse ) to become Catholique ; and againe how temerariously , noe lesse vniustly my selfe is accused of Levitie and inconstancy for abandoninge the Protestant reformed Congregation : I haue therfore thought it à very behouefull part to declare my selfe breifly by this ensueinge manifest , as well to clere my brother , as to render your selfe , an dmy other best freinds some satisfactory accoumpt in iustification of myne owne Action . First then , although my brother doe much ioy with the Angells for my Conversion ( as I doubt not but all godly people doe ) and might much more haue gloryed , had he been the Instrument or Agent therof ; yet vpon my resolution , I assure yow , he was soe great à stranger unto it , as that he knew me not to be otherwise then à Protestāt , before that some weeks after my reconsiliation to the Church of Christ , I tould him I was à Catholique . Yea soe farr was he from conceavinge any hopes that way , as that he ingeniously and playnly tould me : that I was one of the prophanest Spiritts that ever he heard speake against his Religion . How then was he an Actor in my Conversion to the Catholique Church , that was not onely such à stranger to it , but allso in à manner dispayringe therof . As Concerninge the obiected Levity : I sincerly protest it was the due Consideration of the vanityes of these transitory affayrs , the vncertaynty of this present life , the Innumerable daingers that therin occurre , the Dreadfull Iudgement that I was to vndergoe , and the fynall sentence of eternall Ioye , or misery , never dyeing but everlastinge , wich I was to receive : These important poynts ( I say ) seriously pondered , and not levity , occasioned my search into matters of Religion , on the verity or falsety wherof accordingly depends the salvation or damnation of every mans soule : which is the Vnum necessarium , ( to vse the Gospell phrase ) that aboue all affaires is to be regarded , What exchange will à man make for his soule ? Verily by the irrefragable testimony of our Sauiour , If he gaynes the whole world he profitts nothinge if he suffer damage therof ; Vnderstand yee these things that forgett God , whilst peradvēture ther will not be any to redeeme yow . Ps. 49. Oh all yee who are enthraled by the loue of perissinge riches , temporall honnors , Carnall freinds , and wordly respects ; who by their actions and deeds deny God , nothinge fearinge the fynall sentence of eternall woe , or wellfare ! Oh all yee ( I say ) tymely consider and take to hart this most Consequent affaire ; least hereafter when it will be too late , ther wil be none to releive or succor you ; and therfore lett vs while wee haue tyme , worke good for our soules : Let vs now ( I say ) while it is A nunc acceptabile , seeke our Lorde while he may be fownd , and be prepared to ascertayne our selues in the knowledge and embracement of the one Catholique Church , out of which ther is noe salvation ; least when wee little thinke of it , the Sonne of man will come to call vs to à dreadfull accoumpt , and finde vs Et minus habentes , & ad recte credendum tardos : And forasmuch as that in the Inquest after soe weightye an argument , ther can be noe worse preparatiue disposition , and more disadvantagious to the findinge out of the soule savinge truth , then to haue aforehand an over wayueringe conceipt of the one syde , and to be prepossest by preiudicate opinion of the other part , I was resolued vtterly to divest my selfe of the passions of loue or hatred towards eyther syde ; and dilligently with the impartiall eye of Charity , to looke into the principales of both Catholique and Protestant Religion , And seeinge fayth is à fupernaturall guifte descendinge from the Father of Light , and the goodnes of the Allmighty of his parte is such , that he would haue all saved , and forsaketh none that Cordially , humbly , and perseverantly seeke him ; It was daylye my earnest and humble petition to him , soe to illumenate me , that if I were in the right , I might be Confirmed therin , If not to state me in that Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth : assureing my selfe that in such à disposition and resignation of my selfe into the hands of God , I should never be confounded , but secured : accordinge to that of the Royall Prophet hee that dwelleth in the aide of the heighest , shall abyde in the protectiō of the God of heaven : And therfore freely excite vs with an Accedite ad Deum & illuminamini & facies vestrae non confundentur ; Psal. 33. v. 6. Now then to the eye of the matter amongst many other motiues which warrants my aversion from the Englishe Congregation , to omitt the many absurdityes and daingerous Consequences of Protestants , Iustification by fayth onely , the impossibility of Gods Comaundements : the blemishinge the best works with sinne ; their impious impugnation and hatred to Gods dearly beloved freinds , the heavenly Saynts , the negation of Frewill , the neglect of the Sacrament of pennance , and the penitentiall Acts : ( vzt ) humble confession , harty Contrition , and effectuall satisfaction , the fcoffinge at fasts , Corporall mortifications : and such lyke Doctrynes , of theirs tendinge to vitious liberty of lyfe : As allsoe the manifould deceipts , falsifications , and impostures Protestant wrighters doe practice to support their Religion , of whom Sir Edwin Sandes an eminent man amongst Protestants In his relation of matters of Religion pronounceth these words . The Protestant writers in relation of things , haue abused this present age , and preiudiced posteritye . Loue and dislyke haue soe dazelled their eyes , that they cannot be beleiued : Agreeable to which is the Confession of that Learned , and ingenious Protestant Zantius in his 10. Epist. to Strumus in the end of the 7. booke , and 8. of his Missellans : wher he vttereth these words of the proceedings of Protestante wrighters , Doctors and pillars of the reformed Church : The state of the question that it may not be vnderstood , wee often with sett purpose ouerclowde with darknes : Things which are manifest wee impudently denye , Things false without shame wee auouch . Things playeinly impyons wee propose as first principalls of fayth : Things Orthodoxal wee condemne of harisye ; Scripture at our pleasure wee detort to our dreames &c. To omitt I saye the prementioned motiues with many more which exceedingly averteth me from the Protestant Congregation ; the prime motiues , which warrante my aversion from Protestants , are for that not onely I haue ofen heard them averre that the Church of Christ might erre in matters of fayth : and read their many testimonyes that it hadd erred , made an vniversall Apostasye , and that for à longe space Truth was vnknowne , before that Martin Luther an Apostata , both from the holy order of S. Augustins Eremitticall Fryers ; and the Catholique Church , became à new Apostle to them , whom they tearme à man sent from God , to illuminate the world , another Elias : First Apostle of the pure refined Gospell ; The father of Protestants , and reformer , which restored the decayed Church of Christ to the primitiue Modell which is most blasphemous , contrary to the predictions of the auncient . ( Note . ) Prophetts , contrary to the promises made by God and Christ touchinge the perpetuall existence and assistance of his Church : yea distructiue of Christ himselfe : The new Testament : The Creed of the Apostles , and exceedingly strengthennige and advantaginge the perverse Sinagogue of the Iewes , as here after in place convenyent I will further declare , not onely ( I saye ) this : which principally moveth me aboue all ; but allsoe that I finde in the 39. Articles of the publique Confession of the fayth and Religion of English Protestants , that particuler Churches , as namely Ierusalem , Antioch &c. might as well erre in matter of fayth , as in livinge and Ceremonyes : Now seeinge in reallitye , the Englishe reformed Congregation is but à particuler Church : not onely for place , but for that it is never able to demonstrate that any other Congregation of men in the vniversall World , eyther before Luther or since Luther , ever had Communion with them in the 39. Articles which is the propper essence of our Englisse Protestant Religion ( Note . ) Howbeit by the way I doe grāt , that as ther are many falsityes howsoever different compared to each other , yet all are against one truth , Soe lykewise all Sects , that formerly were , and now are , as Protestants , Anabaptists , Puritanes , Brownists , Sacramentaryes , Hugonotes , Arminians , Gomorists , Sosinians , Semilutherans , &c. howsoever they iarr and impugne one another in many and werghty controuersies of fayth , as appeare by their innumerable bookes eagerly writt against one another : yet in this one thinge they accord by Common vnion , or rather Conspire , ( to witt ) against the Roman Church , which clerely discovereth it to be the true Church of Christ , were all Catholiques silent in her behalfe : If then the English Congregation be but à particular Church ; For that it wants Communion with the Christian World in the 39. Articles of their Religion , consequently by her owne acknowledgment shee may erre in matters of fayth . Which beinge soe , what infallable assurance generally I pray yow can the mēbers of such à Church haue for their salvation ? Seeinge accordinge to the testimony of holy witt It is impossible to please God without fayth : ( wz●t ) orthodoxall , much lesse to inioy him , Beinge then that the Certaynety of the salvation of the Churches members necessarily dependes on the Certaynty of à true fayth , without which they cannot please God , noe members that really tenders their soules salvation can with à secure Conscience followe or haue Communion with such à Church , which by her owne confession is lyable to erre in fayth : which is further thus demonstrated : For eyther such à one followeth his whole Churches authority and doctrine , or he dissents from it ? If he follow his Church and generall doctrine of his Pastors and teachers , then hath he noe certaynty or securitie , seeinge she is subiect to erre in matters of fayth , accordnge to his owne Confession : If he dissents from her , then is he more perplexed and endaingered , for if his whole Church be lyable to erre in matters of fayth , how much more any private member therof ; and indeed it were intollerable pride for any inferior member to arrogate without showinge anye Divyne warrant , such à privilidge of not erringe in fayth , which his whole Church , as he supposed ( accordinge to his owne confession ) doth not participate . Now to come to the pretended foundation of Protestant Religion , which is vsually to all other heretickes , the more colorably to disguise their errors , imitatinge the Divells transformation into an Angell of light , and vsurpation of That it is written , I meane the Byble , which they soe much appeale too , though with as little reason as ever auy Sect ; for if these plaintiffes that accuse the Roman Church of Error , superstition , Noveltye and Idolatrie , be vrged to produce any playne place of holy writt to proue their accusation , for example sake : wher in holy writt it is syad That Gods Commaundements are impossible to be kept ? or where in holy writt ther is any prohibition to craue the assistance of the heavenly Saints to ioyne their prayers with ours to our Lorde Iesus Christ , that wee may be made worthie of this promises ? &c. the whole pack of them are not able to produce not soe much as one expresse text to that purpose but givinge slipp to the demaund in question , they fly to bye difficultyes , fabulous , or impertinent narrations , relatinge many tales of Cockes and Bulles , of this Pope and that Pope , of this Bissopp or that Fryer , Soe destitute are they of the ayde of holy writt which vaynely and frequently they pretend , soe that the sayeinge of the holy Prophet is well verifyed in them , The vngodly haue tould me their fables , but not as thy Lawe , Ps. 118. But wheter haue these frivolous impertinences of Protestants wrested my discourse ? To retorne then to the Byble , on which solye they pretend to build all their fayth , although it be not controuerted betuene Catholiques and Protestants , or any other nomynated Christians : whether God hath any worde written which is infallable , vsually called the holy Scripture ? As it is one thinge to question , whether ther be à Kinge of Spayne , and another thing wether Phillip , or Ferdinando be the Kinge therof ? For that though the first ( to witt ) that ther is à Kinge of Spayne be most Certayne ; yet the latter may be debated , which is the Lawfull true Kinge ( vzt ) Ferdinando , or Phillip ; Soe though it be most Certayne that there is à written worde of God infallable : yet iustly may it be questioned whether that booke which Protestants haue and call the Byble be the holy Scripture or noe : For ( as the Learned doe obserue ) in the Scriptures three thinges are to be consydered , First the Cannon or Catologue of divyne bookes ; Secondly the translation ; And thirdly the sence which is the soule of the Letter : Now then I demaund of Protestants what Infallible assurance they haue that the bookes which be in their Cannon , be onely divyne ? And those which they reiect ( as Apocripha ) be really such : Will yow saye with Luther , and with other Protestants as Whitakre , and Doue , that yow received them from the Roman Catholique Church ; Then it followeth if her authoritye who yow Credit therin be infallible , yow are allsoe bound to stande to her worde in other poynts of Religion : For if she be infallible ( as she must ) if yow haue any infallible assurance that the Scriptures yow received from her be really divyne in à matter soe fundamentell , much more is she to be Credited in other poynts , as namely concerninge the true interpretation therof &c. Secondly out of this answer it followeth , that the Roman Church cannot be Antichristian ( as some Protestants vaynly pretend ) For it cannot stand that they should preserue the Scriptures for soe many ages , wherin yow pretend your Church was vnknowne and latent : For then may Israell be fownd in Babilon , and participation bebetwene Christ and Belial : And she who is falsehood it selfe , be , by your owne inference , the pillar and foundation of truth ; To be shorte then , must the whore of the Apochalips ( Thus is Antichrist become Christ Servante and best supporter ) Keep safe those Recordes wherby those many hundred Thowsonds of Christ virgins make their Clayme to the inestimable reward alloted for their vowe of Chastitye : As easily wee may beleiue , that the Arke , and the Idoll Dagon may be placed together . But indeed though yow haue the Roman Churches warrant , that those bookes that yow admitt as Canonicall to be divyne : yet never did the Roman Church warrant or assure yow that onely those bookes placed in your Cannon , be divyne , and the rest which yow reiect , to be Apochripha : It resteth then that the greatest assurance yow haue is the authority of your owne Church , which Confessedly is lyable to Error what infallible assurance haue Protestants of the purity and incorruption of their translation : especially seeinge many of their brethren hardly Censure it : How shall I approue ( sayth M. Burges ) vnder my hand à translation which hath many omissions , many additions , which sometymes obscureth , sometymes perverteth the sence , beinge sometymes senceles , sometymes Contrarye : M. Bronghton the great Hebritian thus sayth , The publique translation of the Scripture in English is such , as it perverteth the Text of the old Testament in eight hundred forty and eight places : and it causeth Millions of Millions to reiect the new Testament , and to runne into eternall flames : And to omitt how Bishopp Tunstall noated two thowsand Corruptions of the Bible in Tindalls translation , And allsoe how the Remists noated two hundred and tenn corruptions of the new Testament out of Greeke , which Protestants pretended to translate , not Chardginge them with an infynite number of their Corruptiōs repugnant to the auncyent authenticke Lattin , To omitt ( I saye ) these , and many other Catholique observations for which they Iustly except against the English Bybles ; I add this Cōfessiō of the famous Protestant , D. Whitakre who though favouringe the Englishe trāslation of the Bible , as much as possible he might , yet thus he confesseth , I haue not sayd otherwise but that somethings in the Englishe translation might be amended ; Now what infallible assurance ( I saye ) haue they to warrant their translation as incorrupt , seeinge the greatest warrant they haue for it is the authority of their Church , which by their confession may erre , And with what Conscience can they Commend vnto the people their English Byble thus Corrupted for the pure word of God : ( Note . ) Againe what infallible assurance haue they of the sence which is the life of the Letter , ( to witt ) that their expositions be the true meaninge of the holy Ghost ; but the authority of their Church , which by their owne Confession is subiect to Erre ? On the contrarye what infallible assurance haue they that the Catholiques Cannon , translation , and exposition of the Byble are not Orthodoxe , but the authority of their errable Church . ( Note . ) Now thē if fayth be an infallible Knowledge , ( for by falliable and errable doctrine it is impossible to be saued ) can anye one with à safe Conscience build all his fayth vpon such à Byble whose Cannon , translation , and interpretation hath noe infallible assurance ; And in this I was infinitely confirmed when afterward I read in M. r Shillinghworths booke , approued by three Oxford Doctors as conformable to the Doctrine of the Church of England , ( vzt , ) that ther was noe infallible Certaynety to be assured That the Scriptures were really Gods worde . Which in effect is to suye , That Protestants who pretend to beleiue nothinge but that which is contayned in Scriptures haue noe infallible assurance , whether their Congregation be truely faythfull Christiains or no . Moreover I demaund what certayne warrant Protestant Ministers and teachers haue of any Lawfull ordination or vocation for their pretensiue reformation , and departure from the Roman Church ; with whom sometyme their Sect-masters were vnyted in Communyon of fayth : but their owne errable authoritye ? And consequently seinge their Church can erre , how can Protestants be assured that their Church doth not erre in Condemninge the Roman Church of superstition ? Or how can the vulgar be sure they are taught the truth , when their teachers themselues confesse that their Church and all their Pastors may lye : In à word noe Protestant can produce any prooffe on t of Scriptures in his owne defence , or impugnation of Catholique Religion , but it is glossed or expounded ( litterallie or misticallie ) eyther by his Church , or his owne private Spiritt ? If by his Church , what Certaynty or security , when confessedlie she may erre : If by his private Spiritt , much lesse is he free from error : And indeed by how much the more I heare and see Protestants amayne striue to maintayne , that the Church may erre in matters of Fayth , it renders me more averse from them , and Iustly to suspect their Religion , for that they seeme to be heires of vnworthie progenitors ; ( to witt ) of the Arians who taught all Counsells to be subject to error ; The hereticall Donatists who condemned the whole Church of Error As lykewise of the Wiklefians , and Waldenses : And would yow know the fundamentall reason of this their assertion : Truely ther is noe other then that by disgraceinge the Churches authoritie whith errability their doctrine might be exempted from the note of heresie , and themselues avoyd the tytle of hereticks , for if the Church could erre in the determynation of controuersies of Religion , why might not the decrees of the Church in Condemninge of hereticks be called in question , and soe in fine ther would remayne noe meanes to know who are hereticks , for if yow goe to the scripture which they whith great forwardnes will alledge , and seclude the Churches exposition of the true sence , they can never be Convinced , but will allsoe easilye elude whatsoever Text can be brought against them as long as themselues be iudges of the controversie and sense . And whem I Consider the many doctrines renewed by Protestants which formerly haue been Condemned by the Church as hereticall Noveltyes cōtrary to the fayth generally and aunciently professed , how can I againe imagine otherwise , then that they maintayne this dangerous and absurd position of the Churches errabilitie : for noe other end , then that their doctrine might be the betther freed from the Censure of heresies : for what , is not the denyinge of mans frewill the heresie of Simon Magus ? Is not the affirmeinge that distinction and order ought not to be observed in the Church of God , the heresie of the Prepusians ? Is not the denyinge that all synnes are forgiuen by the Sacrament of pennance , the heresie of the Nouatians ? Is not denyinge of the water of Baptisme , to availe any thinge to our salvation one of the heresies of the Mamkeans ? Is not the denyinge to offer sacrifice for the Dead , ād that ther is noe difference betwene à Bissopp and à simple Preist , and that the fasting dayes of the Church ought not to be kept , the heresies of Aeriaus : Is not the affirmation that by fayth onely , men maye obtayne life everlastinge the heresie of the Eunomians ? Is not the theachinge that Infants may be saued without Baptisme one of the heresyes of the Pelagians ? Is not the theachinge Marryage to be as acceptable to God , as virginitie , and that it is lawful for Nonnes and Monkes to Marry the heresies of Iouinian ? Is not the denyinge the intercession of Saints , And the honoringe of the Martyrs reliques the heresies of Vigilantius ? Is not the breaking downe the Images of our Lorde Iesus and of his Saints the Iconomachians heresie ? Is not the denyinge of the body of our Lorde Iesus to be really present in the Sacrament of the Alter , the heresie of Beringarius ? In à worde to omitte many other renewed heresies of the Albigenses , Waldenses Wicklifts , Hussitts and other detestable hereticks many yeares agoe condemned by the Church of God , Is not the denyall of the possibility of Gods Comaundements condemned , ( as the famous and auncient Doctors , S. Ierome , & S. Augustin , witnes : ) Condemned ( I saye in certayne ould hereticks yea verilie . What marvill then is it , that when they see their Doctrine Condemned of hereticall novelty if they contemne the Churches authority in Generall Counsells , and reiect the auncient Fathers : As patrons of Papistrie : ( Note ) What marvill I saye seeinge in these they finde their condemnation in most Articles , now in contestation if they affirme the Churches errabilitie in matters of Fayth : True it is as S. Paul sayes , that an heretick is condemned by his owne Iudgment seeinge he disclaymes from the authority of Gods Churchs Which is the pillar and foundation of truth : and betrampleth the Pastors and Doctors , lights of the Church , in which he manifestly preferreth himselfe before the holy Ghost the ruler and director of the Church . Accordinge to Christ infallible promise ( Note ) And what is this else but to extoll himselfe aboue God : Super omne , quod dicitur Deus : Which is one of the speciall markes of Antichrist , and yet this Antichristian arrogancie in treadinge vnderfoot the diffinitions of the Church and the authority of the auncyent Fathers and Doctors therof is the verie mayne grownd of Reformers : And therfore Peter Martyr one of the pryme wpholders of the Reformed Church endoctrinates his fellowes with this principle , sayinge : That soe longe as wee stand to the Counsells and Fathers , soe longe wee shall remayne in the Papists errors : Lib. de votis : Oh when I seriously considered and discussed the former discourse with many daingerous Consequences , which thence yssued and seeinge my selfe to sayle in the barke of such à Congregation which had noe assured safegard against eternall Shippwrack , it was high time to leaue her , and spedily to imploy all my endeavours for findinge out of that Church which is the Arke of safetye , the mother of the faythfull , the pillar of truth , Soe beutifull à spouse of Christ , which hath neyter spott nor wrincle , soe infallible à Iudge of all Controversies of Religion , as whosoever shall refuse to receive her sentence , is to be reputed as à Heathen and Publican : It is this vnspotted Church , not lyable to error in fayth , espoused to Christ for ever , who is with her to the consummation of the world and directs her by the holy Spiritt which shall abyde whith her for ever , and teach her all truth : It is this vnspotted spouse of Christ ( I saye ) my cares were incumbant spedily to procure for my mother to the end I might haue God for my Father . The Caracteristicall and insepable marke of Christ Church which is but one , is that in her shall allwayes be found Pastors and Teachers for the Contineuall preachinge of the word , and administration of the Sacraments , the ordynarie meanes necessarie to Salvation To this effect are alledged these words out of the Apostle S. Paul : A text for its Clearnes able to Comment its Comment ; ( to witt ) that Christ hath placed in his Church Pastors and Doctors to the Consummation of Saints till wee all meet in the vnitie of the fayth : That is ( as Doctor Fulke à Protestāt divine expounds for ever , Calvin himselfe expowndinge it thus , Concluds in these words , The Church cannot at any tyme want Postors and Doctors , Now that these Pastors and Doctors must not at any tyme in their office and dutyes be sylent It is not onely witnessed by the Holy Ghost ( I saye 62. ) but allsoe besydes ( the nature of their function requiringe it ) acknowledged by Protestants : And therfore Doctor Fulke sayth well , Truth cannot be continued in the world , but by the Ministry of the Pastors and Doctors : In lyke sort touchinge the administration of the Sacraments the same is more particulerly evicted from the cleare words of our Saviour , and S. Paul : seinge by the help of them wee shall Shew the Lords death till he come , 1. Cor. 11. A point soe evydent that it lyeth out of the way of all contradiction And therfore Willett à Protestante in playne words mayntaineh that the absence of the Sacraments makes à nullity of the Church : And againe in Doctor Whittakres phrase , That The administration of the word and Sacraments being present Constitute à Church , beinge absent doe subuert it : And againe as the some Doctor styleth them they are Ecclesiae essentiales proprietates : Thus doth Protestants ioyntly with Catholiques teach that not at same tymes onely the Church of Christ beinge his insepable and immaculate Spouse with whom he isto the Consummation of the world , is to enioy Pastors and Doctors for the vse of the word and Sacraments , at other tymes to be wholly destitute of them , ( ague lyke havinge their accesses and remissions ) but that at all tymes , and in all ages , in all seasons , the Church without any interruption is to Continew in his full Orbe , by ever inioyinge the aforesayd meanes of salvation . Hence it is that the Fathers to confound hereticall congregations presse heretickes to shew their contynuall succession of Pastors and professors of their doctrine , because if they go to scriptures interpretating it according to their owne iudgement there can be noe determination or end Thus S. Ireneus confounded Valentinus , Cedron , and Marcion By this ordynation of succession ( sayth he ) the tradition which is from the Apostles received into the Church and the publishinge of fayth hath come even vnto vs , wee beinge able to shew , wee put all those to confusion , that through vayne glory ond ignorance broach new doctrines in the Church . l. 3. c. 3. 4. 5. For none of these Heretickes can deryue their succession from the Apostles , nor shew how their doctrine was received by tradition from thence ; Thus Turtullian de praes. c. 11. confoundeth Valétinus Apelleus and other heretickes ; Lett them publishe the Origens of their Church ( sayth hee ) let them vnfould the order of their Bishopps soe proceedinge by successions from the begininge so that the first Bishopps haue predecessors some Apostle or Apostolicall man , perseveringe with the Apostles : in that manner they produce the sence of the Apostolicall Church . In this sort doth S. Cyprian confound Novatian because he cannot proue his su●cession accordinge to Apostolicall tradition : Novatian : ( sayth he ) l. 1. Ep. 7. is neyther Bishopp nor member of the Church : who Contemninge Evangelicall and Apostolicall tradition , succeeding noe man , is ordayned of himselfe . Thus doth S. Augustin l. 2. cont. Retil . c. 51. confound the Donatists , and Sectaryes of his tyme , Number ( sayth he ) Your Preists even from the seate of Peter , and observe that order of fathers who succeeded one another ; and the Successions of Bishopps , was one thinge amongst others , that kept the same S. Augustin , gloryous Doctor of the Church , from departinge out of the bosome of the Catholique Church : for thus he sayth in his Epistle to the Manicheans , Many things most iustly retayneinge me in the bosome of the Church , the succession of Preists from Peters seate to this present Bishopp keepes me in the Church : the name Catholique keepes me &c. Fynally hence it is , that S. Ierome thus Counselleth , In that Church wee ought to abyde which founded by the Apostles to this very day lasteth : yea such an evydent veritie it is that Christ true Church shall never want at any tyme Professors and members therof , as that it extorts this testimony from her aduersarie D. Whitakre Not without great ioy of mynde wee doe beleive , that Christ Church hitherto hath endured , neyther shall it perish , soe longe as the world stands , and the Contrary opinion wee esteeme as à prophane heresie . From this established foundation is erected this discourse for my purpose . ( Note ) The true Church of Christ which is but one , shall in all ages ever inioye à succession of Pastors and Doctors for the administration of the worde , and Sacraments ; Therfore the true Church of Christ hath ever remayned without interruption of such Pastors and Teachers from the Apostles tyme even vntill this daye : But noe Church extant in the world can be assigned to haue remayned without interruption of Pastors for the administration of the worde and Sacraments , saue only the Roman Church Therfore irrefragablie it followeth that the Roman Church only and those which haue Cōmunyon of fayth with her , to be the only true Church of Christ , or else , which is most absurde and Blasphemous , that Christ hath noe Church vpon earth , but that the gates of hell to her destruction hath prevayled against her , contrary to Christ promyse . That there is noe Christian Church extant , but the Roman Church that hath withont interruption in all ages enioyed both Pastors and Doctors , is esilie demonstrated , for neyther the Protestant Church , nor the Iewes , nor the Arians , Donatists , Manicheans , Pelagians , Wicklefians Graecians , Mahometans , or any other Church can be assigned but the Roman : Therfore &c. First concerninge the Protestant Church it is but new and began from Luther , from whence it is called Lutheran and reformed , which is manifest by the restimonies of the learned Protestants , and Luther himselfe which I will here inserte . Let then first their Champpō of the Englishe Church , Iuell speake in the first place , he in his Apologie of the Church of Englād in the fowerth parte , and fowerth Chapter , And in his defence of the Apologie Anno 1571 pag. 426. Truth ( sayth he ) was vnknowne all that tyme , and vnheard of , when Martin Luther , and Vldericke Zwinglius first came into the knowledge , and preachinge of the Gospell , M. Perkins sayth in the exposition of the Creed and in his Reformed Catholicke ; Wee affirme : sayth he , that before Luthers dayes for many hundred yeares our Church was not visible to the world an vniversall Apostasie over spredinge the whole , face of the earth ; In soe much as Bucer in his epistle to the Bishopp of Hereford calls Luther The first Apostle of the reformed Gospell , whose vocation , sayth Conradus Sohlussburg , by reason of the then generall defection of all Protestāt Pastors was immediate and extraordinary , and againe , sayth the same Author , had Luther had any Orthodox predecessor ther had needed noe reformation , Doctor Whitackres Con. 4. qu. 5. C. 3. In tymes past noe Religion , sayth he , had place in Churches but Papisticall ; And therfore in another place he thus write h : wee acknowledg Luther to be our father , Brocarde in the 2. C. Apocal. sayth thus : when the preachinge of the Gospell was allowed in Luther , and his first onsett against the Papasie , the knowledg of Christ was fownd missinge in all and every of his members : D. Bancrofte in his Survay c. 4 hath these words , both the Preists of all sorts and lykewise the people , began in tyme to be drowned in the puddles of Poperie , all of them together from the topp to the toe ; Calvin who in his Epistles affirmes that they weere inforced to departe from the whole world in his booke of the necessity of reformation , thus writeth : It is manifest that the whole world was bewitched with these wicked opinions before Luther appeared . Morgastren in his Treatise of the Church avou●heth that it is ridiculous ( to thimke ) that in the tyme before Luther , any had the puritie of doctrine and that Luther should receive it from them , and not they from Luther . Consideringe it is manifest to the whole Christian world , that before Luthers tyme all Churches weere overwhelmed with more then Chimerian darknes and that Luther was divinely raysed vp to discover the some and to restore the light of true doctrine : And Luther himselfe in the preface of his 1. Tom. Here see even by my case how hard it is to get out of errors , which are confirmed by the example of the whole world , and by longe custome , as it were , changed into nature , And To . 2. This is written his Epitaph . Oh Christ he shewed thee , when all the world was overwhelmed with darknes , And li. 1. de captiu . Babil . beinge to wright against the Masse he sayth , neyther lett it move thee , that the whole world hath the Contrary opinion and custome , And fo. 68. Ther is allmost this day nothinge more received or more settled in the Church then that Masse is à sacrifice : Againe I sett vpon à thinge which beinge approud by the custome of soe many ages and consent of all , is soo ingrafted as it is needfull to change almost the whole face of the Church : But by the way will yow knowe by whose instigation and what spiritt moved him ther vnto ? Let Hospinian , à learned Protestant speake Hist. Sacram. part . ult. . Luther Confesseth ( sayth he ) that he was taught by the Divell , that Masse , and cheifly private Masse is nought , and that beinge overcome by the Divells reasons he abolished it , And therfore noe marvaill if Luther li . de Abrog . Miss. fo. 244. thus writeth , How often did my tremblinge hart quake , and reprehendinge me obiected , that their strongest and onely Argument : Art thou onely wise what did all erre , were soe many ages ignorant ? Behould how Luthers hart and conscience did tell him that he aloue knew Protestancie , and was the first Pastor and Preacher therof ; Hence in his Epist. ad Argent . Anno 1525. he maintaynes this point against Zwinglius sayeinge wee dare boast that Christ was first published by vs . Soe playnlie doe the Protestants and Luther himselfe frely confesse , an vtter defection and want of their Churches Pastors and preaches for administration of the word and Sacraments before Luther . And indeed this manifestly appeareth out of the name of reformed Church . For it is impossible the Church should be reformed except it first had perished and been deformed , soe that Protestants teach and professe à Fayth formerly decaied and deformed , afterward restored and reformed : But the Catholique fayth of Christ Church ( foe firmely built on à rock that Hell gates shall never prevayle against it ) is an incorruptible Fayth of all tymes and consequently cannot be deformed or decay at any tyme , and especialy in such essentiall matters which the reformers pretend the Catholique Church to haue been deformed . ( Note ) Wherfore Protestants that doe teach à fayth which heretofore was deformed and decayed , doe not professe nor teach Catholique fayth , but à novitiall innovated Religion . Seeinge then Luther was the first Pastor and teacher which reformed it , it is evident , that imediately before Luther they had noe Pastors nor Doctors of their Church . But peradventure yow will saye that the Apostles , Evangelists and all the aūcyent Fathers , pillars and lights of Gods Church , of the first sixe hundred yeares were all Protestant Pastors and teachers of the reformed doctrine , but afterward for the space of nine hundred yeares ther were none extant till Luther . But this answere satisfieth not my argument , but rather Confirmeth it , ( to witt ) that the Protestant Church , hath not in all ages ever enioyed Pastors and Doctors for the administration of the word and Sacraments . Which is an insepable Marke of Christ true Church : for were Protestants Christ true Church , then should they haue had in all ages Pastors and Doctors to haue taught their fayth ; and not decline the Iudgment of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church , which lived in the nyne hundred yeares before Luther and cōmunicated realy with , those of the 600. Secondly the answere is false , if they will either be tryed by expresse Scripture or Fathers , as it will appeare by the revnnige through of the principall points , which are now controverted betwixt Catholiques and Protestants . First then by Scripture Catholiques doctrine is there playnly confirmed , and the reformers condemned , for example , Catholiques haue expresly , If thou wilt enter into life , keep the Cōmaundements Mathew 19 17. And that his Commaundements are not heavie . 1 10. 5. 31. And againe , In this wee know that wee haue knowne him if wee observe his Commaundements . He that sayth he knoweth him and keepeth not his Commaundements is a lyer and the truth is not in him : But he that Keepeth his word , in him in very deed the Charity of God is perfected , in this wee know that wee be in him . 1. 10. 2. v. 3 4. 5. and 10. 17. 6. Protestants who brage they know God better and that they are Dearer to the spiritt then other men haue noewher any playne Scripture , that they are either intollerable or impossible to be kept , or that they may haue life everlastinge without keepinge of them . Catholiques haue expresly , whose sinns ye forgiue , are forgiven , whose sinnes ye retaine they are retayned Iohn . 20. Protestants haue noewhere that Preists on earth cānot forgiue sinns or retayne sinnes . Catholiques haue expresly That à man is Iustified by workes and not by fayth only I am . 2. and that the doers of the lawe shal be Iustified Ro. 2. Protestants haue noewher that man is Iustified by fayth alone , noe , nor that he is Iustified by fayth without works , speakinge of workes that followe , and presupposeih fayth of which the Controversie only is , nor that the Law required at Christians handes , is impossible , and that the performance therof iustifieth not à Christian ; Catholiques haue expresly , worke out your salvation with feare and trembling . Phillp . 2. Protestants haue noewher eyther that à man can worke nothing towards his owne salvation , beinge helped by the grace of God , or that à man should make it is beleiffe to be saved without feare or doubt : Catholiques haue expresly Vow yee , and render your vowes , psal. 75. Protestants haue noewher , vow yee not , or break your vowes , as beinge vnlawfull to vow , Catholiques haue expressly : Doe ye the worthie fruits of pennance , Luke . 3. Protestants haue noewhere that fayth onely is sufficient without all satisfaction and other works of pēnance on our partes , Catholiques haue expresly , That every man shal be saved accordinge to his works Revela . 20. Protestants haue noewhere that men shal be Iudged accordinge to their fayth : Catho . haue expresly , That the Angell of our Lorde sayd , Oh Lorde of host how longe wilt thou not haue mercy on Ierusalem , and on the Citiyes of Iuda , with which thou hast been angrie : Za. 1. 10. Protestants haue noewhere that Angells or Saints Make not intercession for men in this miserable life , and therfore that it is idle to craue their prayers : Catho . haue alsoe expresly , that Another Angell came and stood by the Alter of gould which is before the throne of God , and the smoke of the incenses of the prayers of Saints ascended from the hand of the Angell before God . Revel. 8. Protestants haue noewher that Angells and heavenly Saints doe not offer the prayers of the Saints of the Militant Church on earth and that they cannot know them to present thē vnto God . Catholiques haue expresly , Grace to yow , and peace from him that is , and that was , and that shall come , and from the seaven spiritts which are in the sight of his Throne , and from Iesus Christ ; Revel. 1. 4. Protestants haue noewhere , that S. Iohn the Evangelist did not invocate the seaven Spiritts or Angells ( wherof in the first Chap : he maketh mention ) for the obtayninge of grace and peace for the Churches of Asia : and that only wee must pray to God alone , and not to Christ as man and the Angelicall Spiritts and heavenly Saints Liuing with Christ . Catholiques haue expresly , that God is wonderfull in his Saints : psalm . 67. Protestants haue noe where that he is dishonnored in them , Catholiques haue expresly without any limite of time : And these signes shall follow them that beleive , In my name shall they cast out Divells , they shall speake with new tongues , they shall take vp Serpents , and if they drinke any deadly thinge it shall not hurt them , they shall laye handes on the sick and they shall recover , Mar. 16. And againe verily . verily , I saye vnto yow , he that beleiveth in me , the works that I doe he shall doe allsoe , and greater workes then these shall he doe : Io. 14. Protest : haue noe where that none which are of Christ Church , or fayth , and Congregation shall doe any Miracles lyke vnto his , and that it is à signe of an Antichristian Church to worke such profitable Miracles , Catholiques haue expresly , that : From Pauls bodie were brought vnto the sick handkircheeffes , or napkins and the diseases departed from them , and evill Spiritts went out of them , Act. 19. 12. Protestants haue noewhere that by the Reliques of Saints Miracles may not be wrought , and that they are not to be esteemed or regarded : Catholiques haue expresly Concerninge Virgins , I haue not à Commaundement from our Lorde but Counsell I give : 1. Cor. 7. And againe : the vnmarried shal be more blessed , if she remaine soe accordinge to my Counsell : Ioan. 40. Protestants haue noe where that it is not lawfull to doe anie thinge except it can be warranted by an expresse Commaund from God . Catholiques haue expresly ; And the Apostles & Elders came together for to consider of this matter Act. 15. 6. Allsoe wee haue sent therfore Iudas and Silas who shall allsoe tell yow the same things by mouth , for it seemeth good to the holy Ghost and to vs &c. Ibide ; ve . 27. 28. Protestāts haue noewhere that when important Controversies of Religion doe arise , men must be sent onely to Scriptures , and to every ones private Spiritt , or that it is needles to assemble Counsells of the Pastors of the Church , for the determination of them , and that their decrees be not infallible and proceeds not from the holy Ghost , Catholiques haue expresly , that He that hath determined in his hart beinge settled , not havinge necessity , but havinge power in his owne will , and hath iudged this in his hart to keep his virgine doth well , therfore he that ioyneth his virgine in Matrimony doth well , but he that ioyneth it not doth better : 1. Cor. 7. 37. Againe tho Lust therof shal be vnder thee and thou shalt haue dominion ouer it , Gen. 4. 7. Protestants haue noewhere that mā hath not free will or power to choose good , and to eschw that which is badd , througe the assistance of Gods grace : Catholiques haue expresly , This is my body , this is my blood : Mat. 26. Alsoe the bread which I will giue is my flesh : which I will giue for the life of the world , Alsoe my flesh is meat indeed and my bloud is drinke indeed . Io. 6. Protestants haue noewhere that vnder the externall accidents , of bread and wyne that really the body and blood of Iesus Christ is not there , and that it is not in substance flesh and blood indeed , but only à figure or signe of it , Catholiques haue : From the risinge of the Sonne even to the goeinge downe , great is my name amongst the Gentiles , and in every place ther is sacrificinge , and there is offered to my name à Cleane oblation because my name is great amonge the Gentils , sayth the Lord of hoste Mall . 1. 11. Protestants haue noe wher that ther is noe sacrificeing or publique oblation since Christ offerred himselfe at Ierusalem vpon the Crosse . Catholiques haue expresly , Hould the traditions which yee haue learned whether it be by worde or by our Epistle , 2. Thess. 2. Allsoe my words which I haue put in thy mouth . Shall not depart out of thy mouth , and out of the mouth of thy seed , and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed , sayth our Lorde from this present and forever , Esay . 59. and . 21. Protestants haue noewhere that Apostolicall vnwritten conditions are not to be observed , and that none of Gods word by divine assistance shall be cōtinnallie deliuered by word of mouth , and not openly be still professed , nor that there is noe infallible deliverie of true doctrine by word of mouth , Catholiques haue expresly I will giue yow another Paraclet that he may abyde whith yow forever , the Spiritt of truth : he shall teach yow all truth . 10. 14. 16. and 16. 13. Protest : haue noewhere that the Church is not ever assisted by the holie Ghost , and that at some tymes she may teach some errors , Catholiques haue expresly : Thou art Peter and vpon this rock will I build my Church Mat. 16. 18. and that I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth may not faile ; Allsoe Iesus sayd to Simon ' Peter , Simon of Iona lovest thou me more then these ; he sayd vnto him , yea Lorde , thou knowest that I loue the &c. Hee sayd vnto him feed my sheep : 10. 11. 15. To thee will I give the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven : Mat. 18. Prostest : haue noewhere that vpon S. Peter ( by grace made à rock ) the Church was not built , nor that he was instituted Pastor to feed the Christian flock , and that to him were not given the Keyes of principallitie , and that he had not the priviledge after that he was Pastor of not erring in matters of sayth . But can ther be à more evidēt argument that the holy Scriptures cōfirme not Protestāt Religion how impudētly soever they pretēd Scriptures , then their impious detraction from the authoritie of Moses , the Evangelists , the Apostles , and their writings ? Wheras Mose , was the first that writt any parte of Scriptures and he who writt the Lawe of God , or tenne Commaundements . Luther thus reiecteth him and his tenn Commaundements . Tom. 3. Serm. fo. 40. 41. and in Colloq. Mensal . Ser. fol. 152. 153. Wee will neyther he are nor soe Moses , for he is given only to the Iewes , neyther doth he belonge to vs . In Colloq. Menfal . C. de lege & Evangel . I will not receive Moses whith his Lawe for he is the enemy of Christ , And ibid. fol. 118. Moyses is the master of all hangmen , and in Serm. de Moyse The tenne Cōmaundements belonge not to Christians , and in Convin . Coloq . cyted by Ourifal Cap. de lege , let the Commaundements be altogether reiected , and all heresies will presently cease , for the tenne Commaundements are as it were from whence all heresies springe . Islebius Luthers Scholler taught that the decalogue was not to be taught in the Church . And from him came the Secte of Antinomans who publikly taught that the Law of God is not worthie to be called the worde of God . If thou beest à whoremonger , if an adulterer , or otherwise à sinner ; beleive , and thou walkest in the way of salvation : when thou art drowned in sinne even to the bottome , if thou belivest , thou art in the middest of happines : All that busie themselues about Moses , that is the tenne Commaundements , belonge to the Divell , to the gallowes with Moses . Luther doth not belive all things related in the booke of Iob. And with him it is as it were the argument of à fable ; He sayth of Ecclesiasticus , this booke is not prefect , manie things are taken away , it wanteth bootes and spurres , that is , it hath noe prefect sentence , And in his preface vpon S. Iames Epistle , he styles it contentious , tumide , strawie and vnworthie of an Apostoticall spiritt , and againe Luther preposterously comparinge the fower Evangelists among themselues preferreth , the Epistles of S. Paul farre before the three former ( to witt ) before S. Mat. S. Marke , and S. Luke : and iudgeth that the onely Gospell of S. Iohn is excelent and true . Castalio commaunded the Canticles of Solomon to be thurst out of the Cannon , As an impure and obsceane songe . Calvin feared not to affirme that S. Iames approved superstitious vowes , and brought Paul to consent with him in the same faults , in Ca. 21. Act. and vpon the 2. of S. Math. wrights that Mathew did improperly and often cyte the sentences of the ould Prophetts against their true and proper sence . See him alsoe vpon the 4. Chap. 13. ve . and in 8. C. v. 17. and n. 27. C. v. 9. And in his institutions li. 2. C. 16. 8. 10. doubt whether the Apostles Creed were made by the Apostles ; and in the 15. C. Act. affirmes that S. Marke Was à forsaker of his vocation , and an Apostata &c. and that he had filthilie through his owne fault fallen from his Chardge . Elebitius opposeth the Evangelists one against another , for in his victorie of truth and ruine of Poperie , he hath these worde , Marke and Mathew deliver the Contrarie , therfore to Mathew and Marke beinge twoe Witnesses , more credit is to be given then to one Luke . Swinglius Tom. 2. cont. Anabapt. chardgeth the Anabaptists with ignorance for that they thinke the Commentaries of Evangelists , the Epistles of the Apostles , to haue been then in authoritie , when Paul did wright these things , as though Paul did attribute soe much to his Epistles that what soever was contained in them wus sacred &c. which thinge ( sayth Swinglius ) were to attribute immoderate arrogancie to the Apostle . Others as Witakres cont. Bell. Controu. 2. 9. 4. p. Fulk 32. Fulke against the Rem . Test . in Gal. 2. fo. 322. Condemne S. Peter to haue erred in matters of fayth , even after the holie Ghosts descendinge vpon the Apostles : ( Note ) But these things once admitted how then were the Evangelists and Apostles , Scribes of the Holie Ghost , and Erred not in their preachings ? M. Rogers vpon the 6. Article confesseth and nameth sundry of his brethren Protestants reiecting for Apocriphall , S. Paules Epistle to the Hobrewes , the epist. of S. Iames , the . 1. & 2. and S. Io. of Iude , and the revelation of S. Iohn , ( wher by the way yow may observe the Concorde , or Communion , which Protestants haue even touchinge the Scripture , and pretended principales of their fayth ) finallie doe not our Englishe Protestants discarde as Apocriphall , and rase out of the auncient Cannon of the Church Tobie , Iudith , Esther , Baruch , the booke of Wisdome , the 1. & 2. of the Machabees &c. here I saye nothinge of the manifould corruptions and erronious interpretations made by Protestants even in these Scriptures which themselues admitt to be Canonicall ; and how their Apostle Martin Luther whom they soe much magnifie , sayth in his . 1. Tom. witt . fo. 155. In regarde that Christ is the treasure , I care not for all the sayings of the scripture , Planè nihil curo omnia Scripturae dicta : And to omitt allsoe how in his Colloq ad Mensall . fo. 286. he calles the Apostles , great Knaues , these be his wordes Apostoli etiam fuerunt peccatores , & crassi magni nebulones : C. 2. p. 18 ( Note ) Here I appeale to the indifferent Iudgment of an impartiall reader , whether any men livinge wold ever like vnto the Protestants and reformers , soe reiect , deride , and Censure eyther the Prophetts , Apostles , Evangelists , and the sacred Scriptures , if they did favour their cause , as they vaynly pretend . Now to come to the tryall of the auncient Fathers , who interpreted the Scriptures with great fame and prayse , in the Church of God , and lived within the first sixe hundred yeares ; which tymes they acknowledg to be pure , and therfore appeale vnto them , as best able to wittnes the profession of fayth of the primitiue Church , as beinge the Pastors and Doctors therof . For brevity sake I will forbeare to alledge the Fathers testimonies in prooffe of Catholiques doctrine , which I haue reade , But I will make evident by the playne Confessions of the best Champions of the reformed Church , and greatest aduersaries of Catholiques that the auncient Fathers in Controversies of Religion are on the Catholiques side , for which reason they Censure them . For example , to begin with S. Peters primatie , M. Fulk when the consent of auncient Fathers were alleeged against them to that purpose , vpon the words of Christ : Then art Peter and vpon thee will I build my Church , Answereth it Cannot be denyed , but divers of the auncient Fater otherwise goodly and learned , were deceived , in opinion of Peters prerogatiue : And Zantius another great Protestant sayth , the Fathers exposition , vpon this Rock , that is vpon Peter is not admitted , And Luther the great Apostle of Protestancie sayth : Heare all eyther Fathers or Doctors as manie as hitherto haue interpreted Scriptures , haue stumbled , as when that of Math 16. Then art Peter &c. they interpret of the Pope ; Kemtius Cōc . Tr. p. 3 sayth , hat most of the Fathers , as Nazianzē , Nissē , Basill , Theodorett , Ambroi , Ierome , Augustine , did not dispute but avouch the soules of Saints and Martyrs to heare the petitions of those that prayed vnto them , they went often to the monuments of Martyrs , and invocated Martyrs by name . Whitgifte , defen. p. 473. All the Bishopps and learned wrighters of the Greek Church and Latins allsoe for the most part wree spotted with doctrines of frewil , of merit , of invocation of Saints and such lyke . Doctor Whitakers de Sac : Script . p. 655. & 678. & 68. besyde that he sayth of Dionisius S. Paules disciple , that he was a great patron of traditions , and of S. Basill that he beleived Limbus Patrum and vnwritten traditions , he confesseth generallie of all the auncient Fathers , that they held Limbus Patrum , free will , merrits of good workes , invocation of Saints , Single life of Bishopps &c. And that the Popish Religion is patched out of the Fathers errors . D. Homph . in his Iesuitis part . 2. p. 930. teacheth that it may not bé denyed but that Ireneus , Clement , and others called Apostolicall , haue in their wrightings the opinions of free will , and merrite of workes : Lascitius à Protestant of noe meane ranke would haue vs to beleive : in his defen. pa. 146. that the Fathers devised Purgatorie , that they were of opinion , that prayers and Sacrifice of the Masse was to be offered vp for the dead , that they bereaved the lay people of the Cupp , called vpon dead Saints , and brought in such lyke errors . Calvin allsoe sayth it was à custome one thowsand three himdred yeares agoe to pray for the dead , but all of that tyme I confesse were carried away into errors . Those things which occurre here and ther abont satisfaction in the writings of all those in ould tyme , moved me little , I see indeed some of them , I will speake playenly , allmost all whose bookes are extant , haue eyther slipped in this point or spoken too rigorouslie and too harshly : But will yow see how Luther betramples the Fathers in his Colloq. Mensal . Cap. de Patribus Eccles. ( Note ) In the wrightings of Ierome , ther is not à worde of true fayth in Christ and sounde Religion : Tertullian is veri superstitious : Of Chrysostome I make noe accoumpt . Basill is of noe worth , he is wholie à Monke , I weigh him not à hayre , Ciprian is but à weake divine &c. Thus your grande Apostle Luther , who therfore readeth this lesson to all his followers ; Lay aside all such weapons as the auncient Orthodoxall Fathers , Schooles and Divines , authorities of Councells and Popes , the consent of soe many ages , and of all Christian people doth afforde : ( Note ) Wee receive nothinge but Scriptures , but soe , that wee alone may haue the approued authoritie of interpretinge them : ( Note ) as wee expownd them , soe was the meaninge of the holie Ghost , what others bringe be they never soe great , be they never soe maine , it proceedeth from the spiritt of Satan and from à madd and alienated mynde . Peter Marter one of the principall of the reformed Church li . de votis , sayth , soe longe as wee doe insist vpon Counc●lls and Fathers , wee shale allwayes be conversant in the same Errors : Duditius sayth , If that be the truth that the Fathers haue professed with mutuall consent , it is altogether on the Papists side . Alas what ment M. Iewell then with such deep dissimulation to the preiudice of his owne and others soules , by solemne acclamation in à publique Sermon at Paules Crosse , to vtter these words . Oh Gregoire , Oh Augustin , Oh Hierome , Oh Chrisostome , o Leo , o Dionisius , o Anacletus , o Calixtus , o Paule , o Christ ! If we be deceived , ye haue deceived , this yow taught vs , had not M. D. Humphrey in the life of Iewell good reason to reprehend his bould appeale , affirmeing therin that he granted over much , and yelded more then of right vnto the Papists , and iniured himselfe over much , &c. And in à manner spoyled himselfe and the Church &c. what haue wee to doe whith the Fathers , with fleshe , or blood : had not D. Steephens his intimate freind better reason to abandon the Protestant Religion when vpon M. Iewells intreatie , he had revewed his booke and admonished M. Iewell of his Manifould falsifications of the Fathers , he obtained nothinge at his handes , but diabolicallie persistinge tould him , they would disgrace soe the Papists that they should not be beleived against him , though they discovered never soe many of his falsifications : Had not allsoe M. Wallsingham iust reason to leaue the Church of England when he fownd soe many corruptions and falsehoods in this their greatest Chāpion of their Church . Soe heighly honored by Protestants , as that he hath been kept in diverse Churches as à pullpitt booke . Alas what ment M. Doctor Whitaker allsoe with the lyke damnable hipocrisie , soe confidently to saie . The speech of M. Iewell was most true , and Constant : when provokinge yow to the Antiquity , of the first sixe hundred yeares he offerred : That if yow could shew but any one cleare and playne sayinge out of any Father , or Councell he would graunt yow the victorie : T is the offer of vs all , the same doe wee all promise and wee will performe it , what ment he ( I saye ) seinge he himselfe contrary to himselfe in another place de S. Scrip : avoucheth that the Popishe Religion is à patcht coverlett of the Fathers Erros . ( Note ) For I will demaund of him , whether the Popishe Religion be à patcht coverlett of the Fathers Errors , in these points of Religion , where both Catholiques and Protestats agree , or in the other controverted points ? If he saye the first , then is his Religion lykewise the Errors of the Fathers , If the second , then accordinge to himselfe the Fathers be of the Catholiques syde in the points of Controversie . What ment likewise M. Willett in his Antol. pa. 263. diabollicallie against his owne Conscience with such impudence to protest in this manner ; I take God to witnes before whom I must render an accoumpt , that the same fayth and Religion which I defend , is taught and Confirmed , in the most substantiall points , by those histories , Councells and Fathers , that lived within five or sixe hundred yeares after Christ . When as he himselfe in his grosse survay of Poperie is soe bould to nickname antiquitie the alleagtion of the holie Councell vnder S. Silvester aboue thirtene hundred yeares agoe hestilles , Thevaine shew of Moath worme Antiquitie ; and wheras Bellarmin thinketh it à probable opinion that Antichrist shal be of the Tribe of Dan ; For that manie of the Auncient Fathers probablie soe held , namely S. Ireneus , Hippolitus , Ambrus , Augustine , Prosper , Theodorett , S. Gregory , &c. M. Willett without ever strayninge of Curtesie , calleth them playne Hereticks , It is à verie fable and Couseninge device of Heretickes ( quoth he ) to make men beleive that Antichrist shall come of the Tribe of Dan. Surly D. Parkes in his rejoinder pa. 7. pa. 365. had good reason to tell him , lyke à brother of his ; yow haue committed such faults even in that great worke , wherof yow bragg soe much , as yow can neyther defend with honestie , nor with modestie excuse : yea the same D. Parkes his fellow Minister , as Willett himselfe recounts , in his Lodoromast : Chardgeth him with folly , Hipocrisie , falshood , lyeinge Infidelitie , Impudencie , Machivilisme , Athisme , &c. And iudeed who but à Machauilian Athist , if really he had thought that there had been à God after this life to haue punished : durst haue made such à protestation : And to omitt the lyke vaine cracks of M. Vsher copiously discouered by Mallone in his replie to his answere ; It is most true , that which Zantius à great Protestant ingeniously confesseth of Protestant writers viz : Scriptures at our pleasures wee detorte , to our dreames , wee boast of Fathers , when wee will followe nothinge lesse then their doctrine , soe he in his Epist. 10. to Sturmius . But is not Luther then the author of the Protestant reformation with his brethren to be esteemed for havinge endeavoured to reforme the Church in diverse manie points of Fayth , wherin they affirme for manie ages she hath erred : Surlie noe : except wee should honnor and esteeme those who renew Auncient condemned heresies , and hereticall manners , wherof Luther and his sectaries are in à heigh degree guiltie : But as for reformation in matters of fayth : wherin they pretend the Church hath erred : They are rather to be avoyded , who glories in any such title : ( Note ) Seinge that herein they destroy the Godhead of Christ , and make him an imposture for if the Church of Christ which he promised soe firmely to build on à Rocke , as that Hell gates should never prevaile against her , and vnto the Pastors wherof he promised that he would assist to the Consummation of the world , and give them the spiritt of Truth to abyde with them forever for the teachinge of them all truth : If I saye the Church of Christ could , or had erred in matters of fayth ; as the pretended reformers affirme , Then doth it follow that they make Christ not ominipotent , able to vphold his Church , against her enemies , and soe destroy his Godhead : or an imposteur in not fullfillinge what he promised , because the Church for Errors of fayth , and want of truth , is as much destroyed , as à man if he wanteth , or is deficient in any one of his essentiall parts , ( to witt ) if he be not à livinge , or à reasonable Creture , The defect of any of these destroyes him . Soe in lyke manner if the true Church of Christ could Erre in fayth , or fayle in truth which is essentiall to the Church , it could not subsist possiblie : For accordinge to themselues the Church essentiallie is à Congregation of faythfull where truely the worde of God and the Sacraments are administred ; wherfore if the worde and Sacraments haue erroniously been administred for soe many ages as they pretend , then Consequentlie of necessitie hath the Church of Christ perisht and Hell gates prevayled against her : And soe by this doctrine it followeth that Christ is not God : and that the Iewes may well reiect him , and the Gospells anounceinge and speakinge of him , as à grande impostour , which is most blasphemous . And this doctrine of the Churches error in fayth , by which Protestants pretend to iustifie their revolte and speration of there reformed congregation , from the Catholique Church ; is the maine motive why I ame averted from their societie : and relinquish their Communion ; And soe much in proffe that the Protestant Congregation wants the insepable marke of Christ his true Church , and in confutation of there shufling evasions . Secondly , the Iewes haue not inioyed in all ages Pastors and Doctors to administer truely the word and Sacraments , for their Church at this present is not Christian : nor the Arians Pelagians , Manicheans , Donatists , Wicklifians , &c. for they haue all perished , and that in such serte as had not Catholique Doctors , impugned them in their wrightings , and that these present reformers haue here and there renewed some of their heresies , ther had scarcely remained any memory of them . Neither also the Graecians , for they were in Communion with the Roman Church , of and on , about one thowsand yeares : Soe that for such à space since the Apostles tyme they cannot be sayd to haue bin à distinct Church from the Roman Church from whom the Patriarke of Constantinople was Confirmed , and the Bishopp of Rome by himselfe or his legate presided in all lawfull generall Councells , Celebrated formerly in Greece although now vnfortunatelie , as all knowes they be sepated by reason of the heresie touchinge the Holie Ghost &c. Mereouer their successiō hath bin interrupted by the intrusion of maine hereticall and not lawfully ordayned Bishopps , as confessedlie is auerred , by all Catholiques , and cannot be denied by Protestants : Neyther the Turkishe Mahometans , for they haue not had existance in the world ever since Christ his tyme , and soe cannot glorie of their Antiquitie , professinge Christian fayth , as indeed also not beinge Christians , and soe consequentlie comes not into question : For here wee treat of the perpetuall existence and Antiquitie of à Church professinge Christian Doctrine , accordinge to the Markes which insepablie accōpaine Christ his Church as in the begininge was established : Finally the lyke may be demonstrated of any other Christian Church that may be assigned ( to witt ) that they want the insepable Marke of Christ his Church that is the enioyinge of à continuall succession of Pastors in all ages to administer the worde and Sacraments . On the contrarie , by the confession of the Protestants the Romaine Church many hundred yeares was the true Church of Christ , and noe Protestant is able by evidence of any Authenticke Ecclesiasticall historie to shew any Christian Companie or Church In rerum natura more Auncient of different fayth , from whence the Romane Church departed , Therfore as yet she is and ought to be esteemed , and consequentlie must enioye in all ages Pastors and Teachers for the administration of the worde and Sacraments , beinge the true Church cannot fubsist without them . Heer then I vrge , that if the Romane Church , whose fayth ( as testifieth the Apostle ; Ep. ad Rom. c. 1. was published and renowned throughout all the world , that is with whom all the Christian world had Communion of fayth , here I vrge , I saye , That if the Catholick Romane Church had departed from any other extant Church that enioyeth à succession of Pastors vp to the Apostles time , that they would name the time when she fell away from that Church : name the Companie of Christians of more Auncient , and of different fayth from whence she is departed , Tell where this Christian companie more Auncient is extant : Rehearse the succession of their Pastors out of Ecclesiasticall records : For seing it is à prophesie drawne from aknowledged Scriptures on all sides : and from the acknowledged sence on all sides That Christ Church shall forever enioy continewally Pastors and Doctors for the worke of the Ministrie , that is for preaching the worde and administringe the Sacraments : The verification of this prophesie can be drawne from noe other testimonie then the evidence of Ecclesiasticall history . And truly it is à strange incredible thinge , That seeinge Christ Church is soe visible , as she is compared to à Tabernacle placed in the sonne , to à light not hidd vnder à bushell , but placed on à Candlesticke and finally to à Citty of everlastinge foundation , builded vpon à mountaine , which was in such manner without anie limit of tyme to shine to the world ( to witt ) Cheiffly by her Pastors and Teachers , the lights therof : soe that it cannot be hidd : How is it possible that if there were extant , any such Auncient Compaine of Christians , but that some historie would give some testimonie of her succession of Pastors , and Apostolicall Acts : and certainlie if men were voide of reason or sence , perad venture they might be perswaded that for nine hundred yeares together men had noe eyes , noe eares , and noe tongues , as easilie as that there was à more Aūcient Church which had Pastors that had noe tongues to preach with , had such members as had neither eyes , nor eares , to see and heare their Pastors to administer the worde and Sacraments , and yeld anie testimonie that they eyther sawe or heard such Pastors and Doctors : and questionles some historians that lived in those dayes would mention , the departure of the Romane Church soe renowued for her fayth through the world , if she had made anie deperture from such à more Auncient Christian Companie , professing à different fayth . Wher were the watchmen God placed vpon the walles of his Church that should not hold their peace neither night nor daye : Esay 62. ? were they asleepe and silent , when soe notorious à breach was made ? were the Pastors and Doctors which Christ had given to his Church for the worke of the Ministrie vnto the consummation of the number of the elect , and vntill wee mett all in the vnitie of fayth , Ephes. 4. were not ( I saye these Pastors and Doctors able to confirme in sownd doctrine and stoutlie and corragiously even with importunitie to reprehended and argue the Romane Catholiques , for the introduction of such grosse errors as Protestants accuse the Romane Church to haue been possessed with for soe maine ages ? Could they take notice of the least chinkes of the Churches walles , that is , of the few errors of fayth , ( in comparison of those the Romane Church is accused of by Protestants ) which eyther Arians , Pelagians Marchionists , Manicheans , &c. attempted to haue made ? And onely were they vnable to argue the Romane Church ? Or were they partiall or corrupted to be silent and dombe , vntill Papistrie over-ran and possessed the whole Christian world : And did the Holie Ghost , which by Christ infalliblie was promised to abyde forever with these Pastors to teach them all truth forsake them soe maine ages , and at last take their flight to à Sacrilegious Luxurious Apostata , Martin Luther , and à branded Sodomite Iohn Calvin who at last should discover the Romane Churches deperture from the more Auncient Christian Church , God knowes in what imaginarie spaces extant to be fownd ? Credite posteri . Noe , noe , soe farr is the Romane Church from havinge departed from any other more Auncient extant compagny of Christians professinge à different fayth as that her greatest enemyes witnesse the contrarie : D. Feild . l. 3. de Eccle. C. 13. sayth , the Romane Church allwayes had Communion with those Churches which never fell into error : D. Sutcliffe allsoe pressed with the truth doth acknowledge in his answere to à Masse Preists petition , That the Romane Church never departed from anie visible companie of Christians , Bunny in his Treatis of pacification , sayth that she allwayes communicated with the true Church , and never went from the Christian cōpanie . Yea , Cassander much magnified by Protestants sayth , that the Romane Church is to be reverenced as beinge the true Church of God : And Somes in his defence against Penrie sayth , that by the Iudgment of all learned men and of all the reformed Churches , the true Church is the Papistrie . Iohn White in his defence C. 41. in the name of his fellowes sayth , wee professe the Romane Church , in all ages to haue been the visible Church of God , wee never doubt , sayth Feild , li . 3. de Eccl. But that the Churches wherin those holie men S. Bernarde , S. Dominike &c. did liue and die , were the true Churches of God ; and held the savinge profession of heavenlie truth , yea Luther whom with tytle of Father of Protestants M. Whitakers honoreth , sayes in his Epist. against the Anabaptist wee confesse that all Christian good is in the Papacie , and that from thence it came downe to vs ; And in the selfe some place he sayth , I saye farther that in the Papasie is the true Christianitie , yea and the true curnell of Christianitie ; And Anthonie Saddell in his booke de rebus graniss controversis &c. titulo de legitima vocatione Pastorum Ecclesiae reformatae , affirmes that sundrie Protestants Confesse that the Ministers with them to be destitute of Lawfull callinge , as not havinge à contineual visible succession from the Apostles time , which they doe attribute only to the Papists ; And M. Fu'ke allsoe accordinglie sayth , Yow can name the notable persons in all ages in their government and ministrie , and especially the succession of the Popes , yow can rehearse in order vpon your fingers , soe he in his auswere to à Counterfett Catholique : It beinge then made manifest by the Text of Canonicall Scriptures , the testimonies of the approved auncient Fathers , yea and from the plaine Confession of the Learned Protest : ( so powerfull is truth as she extorts weapons from her adversaries in her owne defence ) that it is an insepable true marke of Christ his Church , his spowse , which is but one , that she shall allwayes enioy Pastors and Doctors rightly to administer the word and Sacraments : Insomuch as wher there is à cessatiō or want of these Pastors given for the worke of the Ministrie , vntill wee all meet in the vnity of fayth , There can be noe Church , and consequently noe salvation . And seeing alsoe this Marke agreeth not with Protest : or any other congregation saue only the Romane Church , as hath aboundontly bin declared , it followeth by à necessary sequell , that the Romane Church is the onely Church to which wee must be vnited , if wee will be saued : she onely beinge infallable and secure , in her doctrine . For if she onely beareth the cognissance and inseperable marke of Christ his Church as hath bin demōstrated , then necessarily to her only , are agreable those prerogatiues , which by holy writt are conferred and confirmed on Christ his Church , to witt , that she is the foundation and pillar of Truth , 2. ad Tim. 3. That she hath the spirit of truth ever to abyde with her Pastors to teach her all truth , Io. 14. c. and . 16. c. That she is the spowse of Christ without wrinkle or blemish which he hath espoused to himselfe by à continuall assistance vnto the consummation of the world , Eph. 5. And finally that she is the Church , to whose Iugment in Controversies of Religion wee are to referre our selues , and to whose determination without further appeale wee ought to obey , vnder the penalty of beinge reputed Heathers and publicans . Math. 28. Math. 18. Wherfore I thus resolue , that seeinge the Romane Church is Christ his true Church , if he hath any on earth , as most certainly he hath , and that in no age or season Christ his true Church can erre in matters of fayth : I ame resolued , I saye , to receive for à verity of fayth that which the Romane Church hath or shall declare to be such , and on the contrary reiect and disclayme from whatsoever doctrine she hath , or shall disapproue or condemne , as repugnant to Gods worde written or vnwritten . Let then her Athistical aduersaries presse never soe much to receive nothinge but that which by their naturall reason they can be convinced of , I ame prepared accordinge to the advice of the Apostle to Captiuite my vnderstandinge obsequiously to the mysteries of fayth , as beinge supernaturall and transeendinge naturall reason : And therfore will I rest in the Iudgment of the Church , which is ever directed by à supernaturall Agent , that teacheth her all Truth : Hee that seeketh fayth seeketh not reasō , Sayth Tertullian and Chrisologus , Athens hath nothing to intermeddle with Hierusalem , nor the Academy with the Church ; our schoole is the porch of Solomon which teacheth vs that wee must search for God with simplicity of Hart , and not with frivolous curiositie of naturall reason ; what wronge doth the Creator to vs , if he would haue vs beleiue more then wee are able to comprehend ? It is not for the iron to aske of the Adamant from whence those charmes and secret influences come , wherwith he attracteth and captiuats him ; It is enough that he followe : when God proposeth à verity to vs by the voyce and generall consent of the Church , wee are not to appeale to humaine reason , and to sence , which haue winges tooshort to vndertake such à flight : while one proceedeth in this Manner , fayth wil be noe true fayth , but à fantesy or opinion ; If S. Peter would not haue beleiued Christ to haue bin the sonne of God , except naturall reason and carnall sence had convinced him therof ; Our Saviour had not pronounced Blessed art thou Simon Bariona : for that fleshe and blood hath not revealed it vnto yow &c. vpon this Rock will I build my Church . For in the comprehension of the verities and the misteries of fayth , It is the spirit that quickeneth and the fleshe profitteth nothinge , as our blessed Saviour avoucheth against those which were incredulous , that the bread which he would giue to eate was his fleshe for the liffe of the world . For according to S. Gregoire : Fides non habet meritum vbi ratio praebet experimentum : and therefore blessed ore those who beleeue and doe not see , viz : by the evidence of natural reason or sense . Lett also Heretickes obiect against any Article of our fayth any Texte of Scriptures , perversly or malitiously interpretted , and to theire owne perdition misvnderstood , according to the dictamen of their owne private vnwarranted spiritt : Lett them I saye with noe lesse pryde , then madmes , proclayme the Churches authority lyable to Error in declaringe what is truly Cōformable or repugnant to the worde : I value not their erronious Iudgments , knowinge full well that she is ever assisted by the spirit of all teachinge truth , accordinge to the infallible promise of Christ and cānot teach any thinge repugnant to the worde of God , noe more then God can teach contrary to himselfe , who is her director : And therfore whosoever harkenneth vnto her voyce , that is to the generall Iudgment of the Pastors and teachers , heareth the voyce and word of Christ , soe that the worde of the Church is the worde of Christ : Whence S. Augustin , who dilligently observed this rule , sayeth , The truth of Scripture is holden by vs , when wee doe that which know hath pleased the vniversall Church , which the authority of the same Scripture doth commend : that seeinge the Holy Scripture cannot deceive , whosoever feareth to be deceived by the obscurity of this question , lett him take Counsell therof from the Church ; which without any ambiguitie the Scriptures doth demonstrate ; And in another place he sayth , it is most insolent madnes , what she professes and practices to call in question , Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium cap. 5. And why , I pray , is this most insolent madnesse to question what the Church professes and practiseth , but because this in effect is to denie , or dispute against the Canonicall Scriptures aknowledged on both sides ? For if in the aknowledged worde of God , by most cleare testimonies , the authority of Christ his Church is soe highly magnified as that she is styled the pillar and foundation of Truth , the vnspotted Spouse without wrinkle ; his body , his Lott , his Inheritance and kingdome given him in this world , in which he hath placed Apostles , Doctors and Pastors to the Consummation of the Electe , which Doctors are ever assisted by the spirit that teacheth them all truth , and accompanied by our Saviour to the Consummation of the world , who Comaunds vs to harken to his Spouse the Church : Sub poena of beinge reputed Heathens or Publicans : Tell me then is not this most insolent madnesse to call her profession and practice in question : ( Note ) To be soe Antichristianly proud , as to preferr our owne Iudgments and expositions of the worde , before the Church which is directed by the Spirit of Truth ; Is not this in words to boast much of Scriptures , and indeed not to follow them , for if yow search the Scriptures , that is profoundly , and not superficiasly or malitiously consider them , yow shall finde that the same are they that give testimony of her , and how she is to be obeyed and as eagerly followed . Wherfore to draw to à Conclusion , seeinge the true Church of Christ which is but one , cannot Erre in matters of Fayth , and onely the Romane Church beareth the vnseperable marke of it : To vse the Apostle S. Paules words : From hence foward lett noe man trouble me , for I beare the markes of my Lorde Iesus in my bodie ad Gal. 5. from hence forth let noe man goe about to molest my conscience for being incorporated in the bodie of the Romane Church , which is only remarkable with the cognisance and markes of Christ vnspotted Spouse , whose infallible rules and prescriptions I will followe as à secure guide of my fayth , to procure the peace of reconciliation and mercy of God : And whosoever shall follow this Rule ( to speake with the Apostle ) peace be vpon them and mercie : This is the way soe direct , as that fooles cannot erre in it : This is the Church whose Fayth , as testifieth the Apostle , was published through the world , that is which had the Communion of the Christian World , which truely makes it Catholick , that is the Church , with whom all the renowned Saints and Martyrs haue had vnion : And of this they vtter such honorable testimonies as are agreeable to noe other thē Christ his Church . S. Lucius B. and Martyr Epist. 1. thus speaketh of her ; The Romane Church is Apostollicall ād mother of all Churches , which is never proued to haue erred from the path of Apostolicall traditiō , nor depraued with hereticall novelties to haue fayled , accordinge to the promise of the Lorde himselfe saying , I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth fayle not S. Cyprian the glorious Martyr avoucheth in his 52. Epist. that to haue Communion with the B : of Rome to be all one and the same as to Cōmunicate with the Catholick Church : And in another place , That to this Sea , trecherie can haue uoe accesse , beinge the Chayre of Peter : S. Hierome alsoe that renowned Scripturist and Doctor of the Church , thus writeth to Pope Damassus , I beinge à sheep doe require from the Preist the host of salvation , and from the Pastor fasafegard &c. I speake with the Successor of the Fysher &c. I follow none first but Christ , and ioyned with Communion to thy Holynes , that is to the Chayre of Peter , vpon that rock I know the Church to be builded , whosoever out of this howse eateth the Lambe is Prophane , whosoever shal not be in the Arke of Noah shall perishe in the deluge : S. Augustin in his 162. Epist. puttinge à Catalogue of the Bishopps of Rome , beginnes first with S. Peter , and sayth that the principallity of the Apostolicall Chayre hath ever florished in the Church of Rome ; And in another place aboue prementioned affirmes the succession of these Pastors from Peter , amongst other motiues to haue kept him in the bosome of the Catholick Church ; S. Ambrose calleth the Bishopp of this Sea governor of the whole Church . That holy Seate , sayth Theodorett houlds the sterne of governinge the Churches of all the worlds : S. Ireneus that great hamerer of Hereticks sayth , That for the more powerfull principallity , it is necessary that all Churches haue recourse vnto it , S. Prosper , avoncheth that the Apostles Peter and Paul founded the Church of the gentiles in the Cittie of Rome , where they taught the doctrine of Christ our Lorde , they deliuered vnto their Successors peacable and vnited together , they consecrated it with their blood and memories accordinge to the passion of our Lorde , à Christian communicatinge with this generall Church is Catholick , but if he be seperated from it , he is an Heretick , Antichrist : Soe this glorious Doctor in his Treatise de Promis : & Predict dei part . 4. E. 5. finally both East and Westerne Fathers assembled together in the Councell of Florenee thus decreed : wee define that the holy Catholick Sea . And Bishopp of Rome haue the primacie over the whole world : And that the Romane Bishopp is the Successor of blessed Peter , Prince of the Apostles , and the true viccar of Christ , and head of the whole Church , and Father and master of all Christians , And that vnto him , in S. Peter , is given by our Lorde Iesus Christ full power to feed , rule and governe the vniuersall Church : ( Note ) If then the Romane Church bearinge the inseperable marke of Christ his Church be accordinge to the Fathers the Apostolicall Chayre of S. Peter : Christes Vicar never depraved with hereticall novelties , with whom à Christian , communicatinge is Catholick , from whome beinge seperated is an hereticke : what shall I regard more the impious raylings and fictions of an ignominious Apostata Martin Luther and his adherent Sectaries against the Romane Church , then the vncontroulable testimonialles of the venerable Auncient Fathers : whose sanctitie and learnige , the whole Christian world hath ever reverenced ? Or shall I adhere rather to à new reformed Congregation . The Pastors and teachers wherof are never able more to make good their vocation of the Ministry of the worde and Sacraments , then any other hereticall Intrudors clymeinge lyke theeves by an vndirect way ? Or shall I follow à Congregation of such teachers which confesseth her selfe lyable to Error in Fayth : or rather cleaue to that Church , which is founded vpon à Rock , against which the gates of Hell shall never prevayle , as beinge directed accordinge to the infallible promise of Christ , by the ever assisting Spiritt , teachinge all truth , and noe falsehood ; ( Note ) Certainly to this Rock will I adhere , otherwise shall I change à Certainty into an vncertainety , an infallibilitie into à fallibilitie . A securitie into à Ieoperdie , yea otherwise in à matter that concernes my soules greatest good , or ill , I should effectually demonstrate that I make noe reckoninge of the dreadfull generall accountinge day , nor haue any feelinge thougts of the hideous horror of the infernall Lake of the rauenige Devills , wher it is true that tenn hundred millions of millions of yeares in vnsuportable torments is but the beginnige , as it were of inexplicable dolors ; o Eternitie ! o Eternitie ! wher it is true , that all the greuous paines that from the begnimge of the world all men vpon earth ever endured or could excogitate , is but the greatest ease or consolation . O extreame torments in the vnquenshable scorchinge flames of Hell fier . O God , what an Abisle is thy iust Iudgment in punishinge Scismatickes and Hereticks , who for wordly endes , willfull ignorance , obstinate adheringe to their owne private spiritts , will rather feele them , then before hand prevent them by seekinge to incorporate themselues into the true Church of Christ , which is the vyne out of which if any branch be , it shall vndoubtedlie be eternall fuell for Hell fier . But some will peradventure saye that feinge the Moderne Lawes of the realme inflicts such great penalties vpon Catholickes ; It had bin better for me to haue deferred my conversion vntill my death , and then to haue repented me , and then with harty sorow to haue confessed my sinnes bin reconcilid to the Catholike Church : To these I answere that though true it be , At what time soever à sinner hartely repents For soe longe communicatinge with Schismaticall and hereticall new Congregations , he may finde favour yet consideringe the innumerable daingers which often vnespectedly depriues man of this liffe , who is he that can promise himselfe Gods grace , without which he cannot repent and be reconciled ? yea must he not rather thinke that he shall be debarred thereof , when he shall refuse to come to the banquet of the holy Lambe in the Catholike Church beinge invited by many inspirations soundinge in his eares , This day if yow shall heare my voyce , obdurate not your harts , and affect not to be ignorant of the true Church , least yow should be converted and liue forever . Moreover if yee consider the nature of Celestiall glorie which is such as the least glimpes therof but for one moment , in an eminent degree surpasseth all wordly honnors , pleasures and riches , that ever the eye of man did see in this world , or is able to see , the eare to heare , yea or then can be comprehend by the vnderstanding of man which in one quarter in thought can represent farre more then the eye can see in many yeares , or the care heare in à long space . what Marchant then is he who would not give all to procure the inestimable treasure of everlastinge glorie in noewise to be purchased but by those that be members of the Catholicke Church ? For them doe I pray : not for the world doe I praye : but for them whom thou hast given me because , they be thyne : 10. 17. ve . 9. For none indeed be Children of the heavenly Father , who be not Children of the Church ; who soe is sound to be out of her Communion , sayth S. Augustin : de Simb . ad Catechu . He shal be excluded from the number of Gods Children : nor shall he haue God for his father , who would not haue the Church for his Mother , and it shall avayle him nothimge that he beleived &c. to the same purpose he speaketh in diuers other places , as , de verit . Eccles. ad Bonif. And S. Cyprian the glorious Martyr in his booke of the vnity of the Church , sayth that he belongeth not vnto the rewards of Christ , who abandoneth the Church of Christ : Hee is an alyen , he is prophane , he is an enimie , he cannot now haue God for his Father who acknowledgeth not the Church for his mother . Yea sayth S. Cyprian that great Champian of the Church saith in the same booke . He maye be killed , but he cannot be Crowned , for he professeth himselfe to be à Christian noe otherwise then the divill faineth himselfe to be Christ : accordinge to our Lordes sayeinge Luke : 21. Manie will come in my name and saye I ame Christ : O then sayth S. Fulgentius another Phoenix Lett them all make hast whilst they haue tyme vnto their Lawfull mother : For even as within the Catholick Church fayth is in the hart vnto Iustice , and Confession is made with the mouth vnto salvation : Soe without the same Church an evill selfe persuasion attayneth not vnto rightuousnes but vnto punishment , and à wronge Confession bringeth death , and not salvation to him that maketh it : &c. Hould it then for most certaine and vndoubted that noe Hereticke , noe Scismaticke , though baptizred in the name of the Father , and of the Sonne , and of the holy Goast &c. can possiblie be saved vnles he be recounsiled to the Catholick Church . Thus S. Fulgentius . And that the Romane Church is that societie out of which is noe salvation , yow haue heard before by the many testimonies prealledged of the Fathers : and by what I haue demonstrated of . These ( most dearly beloued Father and best freinds ) are the motiues which amongst many other I haue reade and Collected , which haue occasioned my spedy aversion from the English reformed Congregation of Protestants , which I haue confirmed by the manifould confessions of your owne brethren , not for that I weigh their Authoritie but partly for that Protestants contemne all authority of the Church , Councells and auncient Fathers , and with vnreasonable pride and arrogance will haue their owne words stand as Gospell : partlie allsoe for that these can not be à more excellent witnessinge then where an enimye doth approue our cause and Criminalls confesse the truth against themselues : These allsoe are the principall motiues of my Conversion to the holy Catholike Apostolicall Church of Rome , that is to the Cōmunitie which by obedience and in vnion of fayth communicates with the Bishopp of Rome , Successor of the holy Apostle S. Peter , and Christs Vicar vpon earth : From whose Communion in the Secte masters of Protestancy , viz : Luther , Calvin &c. ye haue departed not without the iust Censure of Schisme , as invinceblie and vnanswerably is thus demonstrated by M. D. Hardinge in his Text related by your great Campion M. Iewell in his defence of the Apologie of the Church England , parte the 6. fol. 576. printed 1567. in folio . Whosoeuer departe from the Catholike Church They be Schismatikes , yee haue departed from the Catholike Church of these nine hundred years , ergo yee be Schismatikes , The first proposition yee will not deny , the second your selues confesse , the Conclusion then must needes be true , if we say the same blame vs not neither say we that onely but also that yee ar Heritikes . Soe M. Harding to which argument drawne from Protestants owne confession M. Iewel giveth the slipe , without answer , fathering in his marginall note à manifest vntruth according to his vsuall manner vpon D. Harding which any one that hath the least dramme of witte may euidently perceiue . These most dearly beloued freinds I say are the motiues of my auersion frō the pretensiue Reformed Church of England ; and of my conversion to the Catholique Roman Church my mother , of which I hould soe great an accoumpt and esteeme that fearing those more who can slay both body and soule , then those who haue power ouer the body only , as had I as many liues as haires on my head , I would most willingly depose them rather then be separated from Christ his vnspotted Spouse , the Cathelique Church my mother , to the end I may haue God for my Father . Corde creditur ad iustitiam , ore autem fit Confessio ad salutem S. Paul to the Romans c. 10. v. 10. FINIS . Confirma hoc Deus quod operatus es in nobis . A templo sancto tuo quod est in Hierusalem . OREMVS . DEVS qui corda Fidelium Sancti Spiritus illustratione docuisti , da nobis in eodem spiritu recta sapere , & de eiusdem semper consolatione gaudere per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum filium tuum qui tecum viuit & regnat in vnitate eiusdem spiritus Sancti Deus per omnia saecula saeculorum . Amen . O My God that I had neuer offended thee in any erroneous beleefe or sinfull life , thee I say who art my only good , worthy to be loued for thine owne selfe with all possible loue ; for thy loue I firmly pourpose neuer to offēde thee more , but by thy grace to do whatsoeuer shall be necessary , and I hope in thy mercy , which by the merits of thy Sonnes sacred Passion o Father of Mercies graunt vn to me . Amen . 
A80351	----	Bp Carletons testimonie concerning the Presbyterian discipline in the Low-Countries, and Episcopall government here in England. VVherein is briefly discovered the novelty of the one, and antiquity of the other; with a short taste of the inconveniences that attend the new plat-forme, where that is set up in the roome of the old primitive government. Published for the common good. Carleton, George, 1559-1628. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A80351 of text R2006 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E107_18). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 7 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A80351 Wing C585 Thomason E107_18 ESTC R2006 99861308 99861308 113440 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A80351) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 113440) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 19:E107[18]) Bp Carletons testimonie concerning the Presbyterian discipline in the Low-Countries, and Episcopall government here in England. VVherein is briefly discovered the novelty of the one, and antiquity of the other; with a short taste of the inconveniences that attend the new plat-forme, where that is set up in the roome of the old primitive government. Published for the common good. Carleton, George, 1559-1628. [4], 4 p. Printed for Nath: Butter, London : 1642. Annotation on Thomason copy: "July 5th". Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Episcopacy -- History -- 17th century -- Early works to 1800. Presbyterianism -- History -- 17th century -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- History -- 17th century -- Early works to 1800. A80351 R2006 (Thomason E107_18). civilwar no Bp Carletons testimonie concerning the Presbyterian discipline in the Low-Countries, and Episcopall government here in England.: VVherein i Carleton, George 1642 1210 1 0 0 0 0 0 8 B The rate of 8 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-04 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2007-04 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion BP CARLETONS TESTIMONIE Concerning the Presbyterian Discipline IN THE LOW-COVNTRIES , AND Episcopall Government Here in ENGLAND . VVherein is briefly discovered the Novelty of the one , and Antiquity of the other ; with a short taste of the inconveniences that attend the new Plat-forme , where that is set up in the roome of the old Primitive Government . Published for the common good . Tolle Episcopos , & tot erunt schismata , quot homines . LONDON , Printed for Nath : Butter . 1642. TO THE READERS . IF you are of those that are disaffected to the Church-government by Law established amongst us , I wish this small Tract into your hands to choose , to be read and considered of by you with your most serious thoughts , that so it may help on your conversion . Doe not cast it away ere you have perused it , because here a Bishop speaks in his own cause . With the same reason a conformable man may cast away Smectymnuus , because there so many Presbyterians speak their own cause . Reade it . The Author ( however some of your perswasion beare the world in hand most injuriously , and most cunningly , that a Rotchet must necessarily cover a Papists heart ) was all his life , at flat defiance with Rome ; and had he been called to the fiery tryall , doubtlesse he would have followed Cranmer , Ridley , Latimer , Hooper , those famous Protestant Bishops even to the stake , and sealed that doctrine with his bloud , which his tongue and pen published to the world . Among other Tracts of his now extant , he hath a book forth against Pelagianisme and Arminianisme . The book styled Thankfull Remembrances speaks likewise this Bishop Author ; a book which no friend to Rome would certainly ever have written . Let him be then your Remembrancer , and unprejudiced by you , ( notwithstanding his Lawne sleeves ) prevail so far with you to move you , if you finde he delivers truth to change your mindes in case you be now Schismaticall in the point of Church-government . This learned man was one of those sent by that blessed Peace-maker , our late famous Soveraigne King JAMES to the Synod of Dort upon a friendly errand : I would to God this solid and honest piece of his might helpe to make faire accord at home in his own Countrey , which so much needs pacification now in the Church as well as the State . I shall not despaire , but that it may conduce somewhat toward the one , so parciali●y and all prejudicate opinions be laid aside . It was a good saying of a great scholar , Amicus Plato , &c. Plato is our very good friend , so is Socrates , and so Aristotle , but Truth is a much dearer friend . Somewhat like this would you would say once and hold to it , Amicus Calvinus , &c. Calvin is our very good friend , so is Beza , and so Cartwright , but Truth is by much our dearer friend . Were these your mindes and resolutions , you would no longer wish that yoake of discipline on your necks , which this honest Bishop will tell you in the next leafe , the Netherlanders groane under and would faine cast off . So I refer you to the Bishop , I for my part have done with you , when I have assured you this is a true draught of learned Carlton ; and onely farther ( which civility requires ) bid you Farewell . BP Carletons testimony concerning the Presbyterian Discipline in the Low-Countries , and Episcopal Government here in England . TOuching the point of their Discipline in the Low-Countries , I can witnesse that they are weary of it , & would gladly be freed if they could . VVhen we were to yeeld our consent to the Belgick Confession at Dort , I made open protestation in the Synode , That whereas in the Confession there was inserted a strange conceit of the parity of Ministers , to be instituted by Christ ; I declared our discent utterly in that point ; I shewed , that by Christ a Parity was never instituted in the Church ; That he ordained 12. Apostles , and also 70. Disciples ; That the authority of the 12. was above the other ; That the Church preserved this order left by our Saviour . And therfore when the extraordinary authority of the Apostles ceased , yet their ordinary authority continued in Bishops who succeeded them , who were by the Apostles themselves left in the government of the Church to ordaine Ministers , and to see that they who were so ordained , should preach no other doctrine ; That in an inferiour degree the Ministers that were governed by Bishops , who succeeded the 70. Disciples ; That this order hath been maintained in the Church , from the time of the Apostles ; and herein I appealed to the judgement of Antiquity , and to the judgement of any learned man now living , and craved herein to be satisfied , if any man of learning could speak to the contrary . a My Lord of Salisbury is my witnesse , and so are all the rest of our b company , who spake also in the cause . To this there was no answer made by any ; whereupon we conceived that they yeelded to the truth of the Protestation . And somewhat I can say of mine owne knowledge , for I had conference with divers of the best learned in that Synode , I told them that the cause of all their troubles was this , that they had no Bishops amongst them , who by their authority might represse turbulent spirits , that broached novelties . Every man had liberty to speak or write what he list , and as long as there were no Ecclesiasticall men in authority to represse and censure such contentious spirits , their Church could never be without trouble : Their answer was , that they did much honour and reverence the good order and discipline of the Church of England , and with all their hearts would be glad to have it established amongst them ; but that could not be hoped for in their State . Their hope was , that seeing they could not do what they desired , God would be mercifull to them if they did what they could . This was their answer , which I thinke is enough to excuse them , that they doe not openly aime at an Anarchie , and popular confusion . The truth is , they groane under that burden , and would be eased if they could . This is well knowne to the rest of my Associates there . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A80351e-420 a B. Davenant . B. Hall . b D. Ward . D. Goad . D. Balcanquall . 
A34972	----	I. Question: Why are you a Catholic? The answer follows. II. Question: But why are you a Protestant? An answer attempted (in vain) / written by the Reverend Father S.C. Monk of the Holy Order of St. Benedict ... Cressy, Serenus, 1605-1674. 1686 Approx. 228 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 39 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A34972 Wing C6900 ESTC R1035 11780916 ocm 11780916 49046 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A34972) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 49046) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 812:5) I. Question: Why are you a Catholic? The answer follows. II. Question: But why are you a Protestant? An answer attempted (in vain) / written by the Reverend Father S.C. Monk of the Holy Order of St. Benedict ... Cressy, Serenus, 1605-1674. Cressy, Serenus, 1605-1674. Why are you a Catholic? [4], 72 p. [s.n.], London : 1686. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. EEBO-TCP aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). The EEBO-TCP project was divided into two phases. The 25,363 texts created during Phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 January 2015. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church. Protestantism -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2003-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-09 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2003-09 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion ✚ I. Question . WHY ARE YOU A CATHOLIC ? The ANSWER follows . II. Question . BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT ? An ANSWER Attempted ( in vain . ) 1 Pet. 3. 15. Be ready always to give an Answer to every man that asketh you a Reason of the hope that is in you , with meekness and reverence . Writen by the Reverend Father S. C. Monk of the Holy Order of St. Benedict , and of the English Congregation . LONDON , Printed in the Year , MDCLXXXVI . ✚ TO THE Christian Reader . IT was in Obedience to the desire of an Honourable Friend that this following Discourse was written ; that it was confined to such narrow lounds ; and that it is now Published . He thought it requisite that such Catholics as are not at leasure to read Volums of Controversies , should be instructed how to give a rational Account to Modern Sectaries , why they are Catholics ? and he thought also that to justifie such their Profession , a long Discourse would not be necessary . This occasioned the following Answer to the Question proposed in the Title : which Answer , if rational and satisfactory , will prevent or rather determine , all other particular Questions about Religion , the debating of which furnishes the world with Books to fill great Libraries . But what fate soever shall befal this Answer in the esteem of Readers , certain it is that the method of it is unquestionably useful , by which is shewed that the Controversie about the Church is first of all to be seriously debated : because what Party soever shall be able to give convincing Proofs that their Church is the same , or a true Member of the same Church which we believe in the Creed , shall thereby evince that all accusations laid against her are false and groundless , and all separation from her damnable . And on the other side it will be to no purpose to examine the Tenets of a Church already prejudged to be a false Church , that is , to want the inseparable Marks of a true Church , signifyed by these words in our Creeds , One , Holy , Catholic and Apostolic Church , denoting Unity of Faith , Sanctity of Discipline , Universality and uninterrupted Succession of Teachers and Governors from the Apostles , to be necessary Signs of a true Church . Now for as much as regards the following Discourse , if any one shall think fit to undertake a Reply to it ; he may please to take notice , that ( unless he intend to make quarrels useless and endless ) the only proper Reply will be his Answer to another like Question , which he may suppose to be proposed to him by a Catholic , viz. How can a Protestant think himself safe in a Congregation which never was incorporated in any Church whatsoever existent before the ( pretended ) Reformation ? This Question , if seriously and rationally resolved , and especially if the Resolution of it be justifyed by Authorities of ( by us all approved ) Antient Catholic Doctors , it will then only be esteemed of considerable force against this following Answer to the Question , Why are you a Catholic ? Now in this renewed Impression , the Author thought expedient that such a Second Question should be proposed , as by a Catholic to a Protestant , demanding reciprocally of him , Why are you a Protestant ? To which Question an Answer is framed , the most suitable to Protestants grounds , that the Author could devise . He is not ignorant that this fashion of writing Controversies Dialogue-wise is oft obnoxious to exceptions , and not unjust suspicions of partiality and prevarication : For indeed we sometimes see Dialogues , in which the Authors ( who may make their pretended Adversaries , to speak as they themselves please ) do put foolish Answers into their mouths , and then laugh at them : presuming thereby to have gained a Victory . But such a poor shift as this the Author protests against . The allegations against the Roman Church brought in by the Protestant , are , in the Authors opinion , the most considerable that are to be found among Protestant Controvertists , which allegations he is permitted also to deliver in a Stile , for its sharpness , becoming a Protestant now a la Mode . True it is , the Author could not possibly make him answer pertinently and directly to the Question . But whose fault is that ? No such Answer , with tolerable satisfaction , as far as the Author could inform himself , could be found in rerum natura . Now if any Protestant Reader shall dislike the Author's introducing his Protestant sometimes relenting , or convinced that some Catholic Doctrines are too oft falsly and maliciously represented by Adversaries , the Authours excuse must be , that he having according to his conscience demonstrated so much , his duty was to shew his Adversary a rational , honest man , that is , such a one as will be satisfyed with reason : and indeed with no other is he willing to treat . However , if this do not content the Reader , he may do well to frame a better Protestant Answer to the general Question [ Why are you a Protestant ? ] But except such his Answer be indeed precisely pertinent , and proper to the clearing his Church from the Charge of Schism , either by shewing that she is indeed a true Member , incorporated into the Body of the Catholic Church , believed in our Common Creed ; Or that she is innocent , and not chargeable with Schism , though she be not , yea abhors to be , so incorporated ; he would do much better to save his labour . No other Answer can be pertinent : No excursions into Invectives against any other Church , or Churches , will be at all to the purpose . Except therefore the pretended Answer be qualifyed as hath been said , he must give the present Author leave to protest against it , as no Answer at all ; notwithstanding which Protestation the Protestant may , and probably will , take leave to think and proclaim it unanswerable . Now the rather to invite him to undertake such a just , though unusual , and hitherto unpractised a Task , the Author does here freely acknowledg , that was a principal end of his Writing and Publishing this Discourse : for the truth is , the World has been too long , and too much , abused with impertinencies and malicious Buffo●ries , to the perverting of Souls , encrease of Atheism , and shame of our Nation . Another considerable Motive also of composing this short Discourse , was a desire in the Author to take occasion to deliver briefly the Catholic Church's Doctrines , as they are in themselves , and freed from the curious fancies of School-men , and misprision of Sectaries , to the Glory of God , and the good of Souls ✚ Why are you a CATHOLIC ? A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A PROTESTANT AND A CATHOLIC . §. 1. Protestant . WHY are you a Catholic ? Catholic . Because I am a Christian , and by the Rule of Christian Faith ( the Apostles Creed ) am obliged to believe the holy Catholic Church . Prot. Did not you believe that Article before you was a Catholic ? Cath. I thought indeed at that time that I had believed it ; but I have found since that I only thought so . Prot. It seems then , you do not think that I believe this Article , as well as you . Cath. I am sure that by vertue of this Article you are not obliged to be a Protestant . §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article . Cath. It may well be so : therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you . Prot. Ask what you please . Cath. First then , when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church , do you not believe this Church to be one Body , as St. Paul expresly teaches , saying , There is one Body , one Spirit , as there is one Hope of our calling , one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism , one God and Father of all , &c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church . Prot. Yes , I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body . §. 3. And do you not further believe , that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world ? Prot. Yes doubtless ; for otherwise the time might come , in which this Article of our Faith should be false : and also Christ's promise [ That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church ] should fail . §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article , do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church ? Prot. Yes , without doubt . Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church , or not ? Prot. No , by no means : On the contrary I acknowledg , that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ , and dies in that separation , cannot be saved . §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree . Let us further , if you please , consider , what a Church in general is , I mean a Christian Church ? Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing , is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed ? Prot. It is at least a part of that Church . Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church , since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ ? Prot. No : For they cut themselves off from this one Church , either by inventing New and false Doctrines , which renders them Heretics , that is , Chusers of a new Faith : Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church , which renders them Schismatics , that is , Rebels . §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body , or Corporation , unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors ? Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me , Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question . Cath. Sir it is not Victory , but truth we now regard . Therefore speak not of being engaged , but freely recal any Answer you have , or shall give , if you find cause . And as for the present Question , consider well what that is which makes a Society , as a Kingdom , a Province , an Army , a City , a Corporation to become one Body . Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these , to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established ? This appears plainly , in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission , he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel , a Fugitive , an outlawed person , and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body . Prot. This cannot be denyed . Cath. Apply this then to God's Church . St. Paul says expresly , it is one Body : your Creed obliges you to call it One : The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self : and to a well ordered Army with Banners , under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks , expecting the Generals command , signifyed by subordinate officers . Such a society is Gods Church : It is the Kingdom of Christ , which if once divided cannot stand . But by his promise it ( and no other Kingdom besides it ) shall stand for ever ; and therefore it shall never be Divided , but all its members shall continue in their order . Now what makes such Order ; but obedience to Government and Laws ? Can you Imagine any other , excluding this ? Prot. I must confess , I cannot , For it is plain , that where every one will be a Law to himself , there can be no Order nor Unity , nothing but confusion and endless Divisions . Cath. Hence it follows then , that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples , of Governors and Subjects . Prot. That is granted . Cath. And consequently , that it is a Visible Society . Prot. True : for otherwise none will be able to know whom , or what , to obey : No Society can be invisible to the members of it : and it is not a Society , if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible , and the Laws unknown . §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church ? Prot. St. Paul informs us , Epes . 4. 11. 12. 13. saying , Christ gave some Apostles , and some Prophets , and some Evangelists , and some Pastors and Teachers , for the perfecting of the Saints , for the work of the Ministery , for the edifying of the Body of Christ : Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man , &c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews , No man taketh this honour to himself , but he that is called of God , as was Aaron . Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so , are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church , obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers , and Subjects to obey their Governors ? Prot. Yes , without doubt : But yet with this condition , that these Teachers teach truth , and these Governors command lawful things . Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true , and the thing commanded lawful ? Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them . Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose , if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts , as we two can do to one another . But the Scripture being only a Writing , and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises , if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture , the Church may as well be without Teachers . §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy : For since it is evident to us , that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture , we cannot rely upon any Man , or any Society of Men , so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us , either out of ignorance or secular interests . Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion , to discern by the Light of Gods word , whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth , or not . Every one must take the best course he can , not to fall into any dangerous Error . And since Eternity depends upon it , it is not likely that men will wilfully misinterpret Scripture , to their own destruction ; especially in Points Fundamental , which are so clearly set down in Scripture , that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them . Cath. Well , Sir , I have at present done asking Questions , and now ( better enabled by what you have said ) will endeavor to give you a fuller Answer to the Question you proposed in the begining , viz. Why are you a Catholick ? §. 11. First then , Sir , I am a Catholick because I believe that Christ the Author and Finisher of our Faith is infinitely both good , wise and omnipotent . His goodness inclined him to come down into this world to save mankind , by establishing a Church upon earth , which should remain till the end of the world , and in which the way to Heaven should be so taught , as not only the Wise and Learned , but the Poor , Simple and Ignorant also should by Faith and Obedience be made partakers of Eternal Happiness . Now his goodness having designed this ; his wisdom enabled him to appoint ways and means proper to effect that his blessed Design ; and omnipotence , to make those means successful . § 12. The general efficacious means to accomplish this , are first , The revealing his whole will to his Church ; which we acknowledg to be sufficiently done in Holy Scripture , as to all points absolutely necessary to Salvation , though in all those points not so clearly to every one , that without a Teacher their sense may not be mistaken : Neither doth Scripture make an express discernment of what points are necessary . And secondly , The assisting of this his Church with fidelity and a constant performance of her duty in declaring all necessary Divine Truth manifested to her , to her Subjects ; with a command , that all Christians should obey and submit to what she shall teach or enjoyn them . God having thus revealed his whole Will to his one Catholic Church , it necessarily and evidently follows . 1. That Ignorance , or Error , in any Points of Christian Doctrine necessary to Salvation , is damnable . 2. That a Seperation from this one Church is damnable also , upon what pretence soever the separation be made . §. 13. Now to avoid eternal Misery thus threatned by Error or Schism , only one of these two ways is possible . 1. By ones own light to penetrate into all Mysteries , so as to be most firmly assured of a right understanding of all necessary verities revealed by God in Holy Scriptures . 2. Or out of a distrust of our own abilities to submit our Reason and internal Assent to Authority . The former of these ways , all Sects divided from the Roman Church , and among themselves , do uniformly take , being forced hereto by denying any visible Society of men to have any authority obliging the Consciences of their Subjects : and by conseqence they have all , if any , an equal Title ( that is indeed equally none at all ) to challenge belief , one as well as another : neither can they rationally , without deserting their common Ground , condemn , or excommunicate one another . The latter way we Catholics only take , and , as we think , prudently and surely . §. 14. For Sir , I beseech you to consider what a busy , laborious task you have undertaken by being a Protestant , of what Sect among them soever you are . Before you can promise to your self any rest of mind in the Peculiar Fundamental Doctrines of your Sect , your Conscience must satisfy you that you have not embraced a Religion by hazard , but after a diligent , sincere and effectual examination of all the Reasons and arguments , not only of Catholicks submitting to Authority , but also of other Sectaries , who proceeding your way of interpreting Scripture by a private light , do condemn your Doctrines ; or whose Doctrines you condemn . To be able to do all this , how many Volums of Controversy are you obliged to read and examine ? Besides this , it will be absolutely necessary that you be perfectly studyed in all the Books of Scripture , with the best Commentaries on them , both Ancient and Modern since you ground your Religion upon a sense of Scripture , which perhaps not any of them will allow , and then in equity you are to examine their reasons for it . Now what one mans age will suffice for all this business , though but in one or two Points controverted , and though the party were learned , and had never so much leasure ? What then shall ignorant persons do , who yet make up the greatest number of Christians ? What shall Trades-men and Day-Labourers do ? who can scarce allow from their necessary Vocations any time at all dayly , even to say their Prayers ? yet it concerns all these , upon the venture of Eternal Happiness or Misery , not to forsake or embrace a Religion without a sufficient Examination made by themselves of the grounds of it , since they are told , and believe it , that they must trust to themselves only because no external Authority upon Earth can require from them a submission of their judgment , inasmuch , as according to their general fundamental Positions , no Authority is infallible . §. 15. Now whereas you said , That all Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity are so clearly set down in Scripture , that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them : If this were true , yet since neither the Scripture , nor you your selves , do clearly express which and how many Doctrines are fundamental , every tittle of Scriptures must be read and examined by every one of you , for fear a necessary Doctrine should chance to escape you . But to demonstrate the groundlesness of that your Assertion , I desire you to reflect on the prodigious multiplicity of Sects swarming in this age , all which ground their Belief upon pretended clear Texts of Scripture alone : you will then scarce find one Article of Christian Faith exempted from their Disputes . There are not wanting who deny the Mistery of the Holy Trinity , the Divinity and Incarnation of our Lord , the Divine Personality of the Holy Ghost . Some absolutely deny Freewill , whilst others exalt the power of it so high , as to affirm Divine Grace unnecessary to its best Operations . Some affirm our Nature to be so incurably polluted by Original Sin as that all the best actions of the Regenerate are Mortal Sins ; Others will acknowledge no Original Sin at all . Some affirm Baptism necessary to Salvation , even of Infants : Others reject Infant-Baptism : and Calvinists assert , that Infants without Baptism are sanctified by their Parents faith : and that some Infants dying , though baptized may be damned . Some believe mans Soul to be mortal , and that it perisheth with the Body , not having any Knowledg or Sentiment after death : Some confine God to a determinate place in Heaven , and also deny his Prescience of future Contingents . Lastly some deny an Eternity of torments in Hell. Surely you will not deny most of these to be contrary to Fundamental Doctrines of our Faith : yet all who maintain these Tenets , and all Sectaries who contradict them , do ground themselves upon express Scripture , which to you seems so clear . You cannot be more confident that you have light on the true sence of Scripture , than they of a contrary sense , and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other . Can it then be prudence in any man to hazard Eternity upon his own sence of Scripture , the half of which perhaps he never read ? Commonly a Text or two concludes every point controverted , when perhaps there are twenty Texts , unconsidered by the Person , which would rectify the sence he gave to the former ? Is that Guide to be trusted , which has seduced such infinite Multitudes , opposing , calumniating , and hating one another ? All Mankind may be witness that this Private Light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one Sect. In a word , is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the Goodness , Wisdom and Omnipotence of God to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all Christians to unity of Faith in all necessary Doctrines ; and also that he hath promised to conserve his Church in this Unity to the end of the world : and on the other side to affirm withal , that the only Means appointed by him to produce this Unity should be a certain Means of destroying Unity , and which , if made use of by all Christians , the gates of Hell would be too strong for him , so that there would scarce be left a Church upon earth . §. 16. Truly , Sir , I do not know through what Spectacles you look upon this principle of Protestancy , which hath been indeed the constant Principle of all Ancient-Herities . But to me it appears most horribly gastly , and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of Lucifer , the foul Spirit of Pride and contention , who presents to unwary Christians once more this fruit of the Tree of the knowledg of good and evil , to be aspired to by our own endeavors , and contrary to Gods appointment . Since therefore ( as hath been said ) there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of Divine Mysteries contained in Scripture ( yet so contained as that the Texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood ) viz. First , A man 's own private Reason : And Secondly , Authority of Superiors by Gods appointment placed in his Church : All the Reason ▪ I have enforces me to chuse this latter way , because thereby I shall avoid inconstancy , otherwise unavoidable : as I am taught by St. Paul , who sayes , Eph. 4. 11 , 12 , &c. That therefore God placed in his Church Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors and Teachers for the edification of the Body of Christ : a Succession of which is to last till we all meet in the Unity of Faith , &c. This Almighty God did , says he , To the end we should not be like children , wavering , and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , through the wickedness of men , and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour : the only remedy whereof , in the Apostles judgment , is , submission to Authority . To which submission also I am obliged by an express command of God [ Obedite praepositis vestris , &c. ] Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are set over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account — And Reason thus divinely enlightned , obliging me to submit to Authority , I should renounce the same Reason utterly , if I should not prefer that Society which ( by an evident Succession from the foresaid Apostles and Pastors ) makes the best claim thereto ; yea , which alone claims an Authority obliging the Conscience , and that is the Catholics Church ; the Authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world . For though all divided Sects preume to contend with her for Truth of Doctrines , challenging that to themselves ; yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of Authority which manifestly appears in her . And you may know this Catholio Church from others , because it only challengeth an universal and absolute , not conditional Obedience ; and you may know the Sons of it by their professing to give to the Churches Authority such Obedience . §. 17. Now , Sir , consider how agreeable to Gods goodness and wisdom , how suitable to humane capacities , how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our Faith on Gods Word as interpreted by the Catholic Church . The far greatest part of Christians are too weak to maintain Disputes : yet God loves the Poor and Ignorant , at least , as well as he does the Rich and Learned ; and takes care to bring them to Happiness without Learning , sharpness of wit , curiosity , and study of knowledg . Consequently he has chalked out a way to Heaven , in which the Ignorant and Simple may walk securely : And in what other way can these walk , but in that of obedience to Authority ? This doubtless is that way foretold by the Prophet , Isa. 35. 8. saying in Christs Kingdom , There shall be a high way — and it shall be called a holy way . No polluted person shall pass through it . This shall be [ to Christians ] a streight way , so that Fools shall not err in it . Now have Sectaries found out this streight way in which Fools cannot err ? Sectaries , I say , who have framed a confused Labyrinth , in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings , where every one wanders , as it were , with a dark Lanthorn in his hand , and either stumbles into , or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best , and leaves it also when he thinks good , not taking direction from any other , or not much caring for such directions . By this means we see how that not only Fools and Ignorant , but even the most Judicious amongst Sectaries , following their own light , do walk all their lives , in quite contrary ways , yet all believing that God by the Scripture directs them . §. 18. Manifest therefore it is , that Gods way being only one holy , streight High-way , not any Sectaries , but all and only Catholics have been by Almighty God brought into it : In as much as they , distrusting the dim Light of their own Reason for discerning the Verities of Faith contested , borrow the Churches Light : thus exercising Christian Humility , in not presuming upon their own Abilities ; and Christian Obedience , in submitting to the Guidance of those Teachers and Governors whom God hath placed over them , and who are to give an account of their souls , These Heavenly Virtues are , and have always been equally practised by both Ignorant Catholics out of necessity , and by the most Learned out of Duty : Yea , those glorious Lights of Gods Church , the holy Fathers and ancient Doctors , though they were Fathers and Doctors to others , yet to the Church herself they were humble Children and Disciples , learning only from her , and teaching others only what they had learnt from her . This surely is a streight High-way , and a Holy way too : and whil'st the most Simple among Catholicks walk in this way , they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most Learned of those which trust to their private light . For they are guided by all the lights ; that is , by the whole Body of those which God hath constituted Teachers in his Church in all ages ; and by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies , which their Teachers duty is to examine for them . §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments , but ( as hath been said ) a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture , and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition , the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture . There we find the Church called , The Pillar and Ground of truth ; a City at one in it self , and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid . There we read , That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment , she shall condemn : that Gentiles shall come to her light , and Kings to the brightness of her Rising : And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her , shall perish . There we shall find , that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church , whom whosoever will not hear , is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican ; such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church . And by vertue of this Authority , General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors ; challenge from all Christians a submission , not only of Non-contradiction , but also of internal Assent , under Penalty of Anathema ; which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises , That he will lead his Church into all Truth , Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth , that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her ; Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers , Heresies . §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith : On the other side , not one single Text of Scripture , nay moreover , not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers , which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church ; whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity , authority , indefectibility and universality . Now Sir , who can resist , who can hold out against such a Battery ? Prot. Well Sir , how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us , whom you style Schismatics , it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics ; for although we grant , that there is but one Catholic Church , out of which there is no Salvation , yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church : the Roman , I say , which is but a particular Church , and she being ( as we are perswaded ) guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines , and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry , we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her . §. 21. Cath. Sir , this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers , when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of ( Heresie and ) Schism , to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices , in which , foresooth , their tender consciences dare not joyn . This they do , to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism , till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church ; which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand , considering mens general incapacity ; and if undertaken by the Learned , would scarce ever have an end . But this is most unreasonable , because though it were true , that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors , yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree , in as much as they remain divided , not from the Roman only , but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation : So that if there be such a Crime as Schism , they are manifestly guilty of it : and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion . To make this charge good against them , it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians , ( and of themselves ( also viz. That there always has been , is , and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth , from which Separation , upon any pretence whatsoever , is damnable . This Church therefore ( wheresoever it is ) was in being when they divided from the Roman ; and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church ? There is not a Society in the world older than theirs , or other than the Roman Church , with which they entertain any communion at all , to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe , and to whose Laws and Government they will submit , but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines , Laws and Government . The consciousness of this , forced the principal Patriarch of Schism , Calvin , to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world . Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse , much less to justifie their manifest Schism , to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine ? As long as the charge of Schisin subsists , uncleared by them , and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church , being Schismatics they are Heretics too , and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to , when they would raise particular controversies , since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates . §. 22. Schism therefore , in its lowest qualification , considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority , being , even in the judgment of learned Protestants , a most horrible Sin , a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ : There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants , ( I mean those Reformers abroad , and antiently in Scotland , Calvinists , Presbyterians , Lutherans , Anabaptists , &c. ) They were once Members of the Roman-Catholic-Church , which they then esteemed to be that Church , which they believed in the Creed . It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs , Luther , Calvin , Zwinglius , &c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors , or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits , or against the Laws of it , which restrained their lusts after Women , grew angry , and began to quarrel with the Church her self , and to study to disgrace her , for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines : Then Pride and revenge inspiring them , against these they made objections , yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers , and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages , for all which the Church must be answerable : And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence , they quickly found Favorites and Followers : thus Sects were first composed . But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace , in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self , to which they could not subscribe , they would not thereupon separate themselves from Her , but submit patiently to her Censures , which she should lay upon them . If her Censures were just , they would have no reason to complain ; If unjust , God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace . §. 23. They were no sooner separated , but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent , and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost , they formed New Societies which they called Churches , and therein established New Pastors , and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry : ( the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core , Dathan and Abiron . ) Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive , received from his Father , and bestowed on his Church , the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul , was his constituting therein Apostles , Pastors , and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession . There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition , that this Succession should ever be interrupted : Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled , these Reformers , without any Warrant , usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it , and to bestow it according to their own pleasure , thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church ( as far as lyes in their Power ) through the whole World. If Christ himself had thus , without testifying his Authority by Miracles , dealt with the Iewish Synagogue , he would not have expected belief , nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him , By what authority dost thou these things , and who gave thee this Authority ? Luke . 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle . Into whatever place they come through the whole earth , they , as far as their Secular power extends , degrade and chase away all Bishops , Priests and Pastors , professing the Catholic Religion , they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors , and true Wolves ; they denounce Anathemas against them , they incite their Subjects to rebel , defraud and persecute them , as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators , and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance . No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called , as was Aaron . Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians ? Who invested them with such Authority ? If we consult their own Stories , we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France , constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen . There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests , ( once they had a Bishop ) Apostates from the Catholic Church , whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues , and by that means make a shew , that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen , who had an ordinary Vocation . But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order , that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation , and receiving their Commission , by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers . In a word , I should weary both you and my self , if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation . If you have a mind , you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French , the Title whereof is ( in English ) Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists ; in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles , as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission ; by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism ; by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry ; by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them ; by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them ; by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities , &c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion , being manifestly prejudged and self condemned . §. 24. Prot. But surely , Sir , you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England , and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors . We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession , since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church , we have the like in the English , in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome . Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations , I will not here enter into any dispute , neither indeed is it needful : But this I may confidently say , That since English Protestants have ( especially of late , ) by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists , or Presbyterian Congregations to be true , though not so perfect , Members of Christs Church , as themselves ; the English Church , I may say justifies , but however , qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission , and thereby involves her self in their guilt . Again though it were true , that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church , yet sure I am , that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors , particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church : She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments ; to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils ; to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees , meerly because they were Catholics ; In a word , she never gave them authority to alter , or rather destroy , the whole Religion , in a manner , professed in England since they were first Christians . If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome , yet not Iurisdiction ; or if that also , yet certain it is , that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction , can also upon their demerits , and exercising it contrary to her intention , suspend the administration of it ; which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations . To be brief , the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession , is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church , to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church , ( and consequently her self no such Member ) unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops , and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church . §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member , but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church . Cath. Consider , Sir , I pray you , that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic . Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt , then is every Member of it , as far as in its Communion , Holy and uncorrupt also . Which Holiness does not regard the persons , whether Governors or Subjects ; for in the first and best Church of all , consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only , there was a Iudas and a Nicolas : A Church is said to be Holy , when it teaches Truth and Holiness : So is the Universal Church Holy and so is every Member , in its Communion ; Since that which makes it a Member in its Communion , is its agreement with the whole in Doctrines taught by it , both regarding Faith and Manners . And from hence it follows , that to ascribe Error and Corruption to any Church which is acknowledged a Member of the Catholic Church , and for such pretended Errors to break off Communion with it , is to do the same to the Universal Church , and consequently to contradict an Article of Faith. Now that this is the condition of the English-Church , is manifest . For since all Christians are under pain of damnation obliged to live in Communion with the Universal Church , by being obedient to it's Laws and Governors ; as also to believe , that this Universal Church , is at this day extant , where can an English Protestant hope to find this Church , if not in the Roman Communion ? In the Greek-Church he will find the same Doctrine , which in the Roman he calls dangerous Errours , as , ( besides the confession hereof by several Protestant Authors formerly ) hath been of late , beyond all gainsaying , evidenced by the indefatigable industry of Monsieur Arnaud in his two late Replies to Claude a Calvinist Minister , from the Authentick Testimonials and Declarations both of several late Synods , and of many Ecclesiastical Persons of eminency , both in the present Greek and other Eastern Churches . And besides these he will find other Doctrins which we all condemn as Heresies . Then for pretended Corruptions in practice , the same practices which he stiles Superstitious and Idolatrous ( principally touching the Blessed Sacrament ) he will find in the Greek Church far more distastful to him . And as for other Eastern Sects , besides the same Practises , he will find himself obliged , if in Communion with any of them , to assent to Ancient , Universally condemned Heresies , Nestorianism , Eutychianism , Monothelitism , &c. §. 26. Prot. But no doubt , God hath his Elect Servants among them all , who are truly Orthodox , as we are : with whom we may be said to be united in Spirit . Cath. Truly Sir , this is a meer pittiful dream to talk of Communion in spirit with hidden Christians , to you invisible , as you are also to them . This renders all the Discourses of the Holy Fathers touching the Churches Visibility and Unity utterly impertinent . Yea this evacuates the Predictions of all Gods ancient Prophets , foretelling the Extent , Glory and Victories of the Kingdom of the Messias : and it makes void the Promises of our Saviour touching his Church . What meaning therefore can you frame to your self , when you say , You acknowledg a perpetually existent Catholic Church , and a necessity imposed on all Christians to live in her Communion ? §. 27. Pr. We acknowledg our selves in Communion with all Christian Societies , as far as they teach Truth , and practise according to Christs Law. Cath. So you may be said to communicate with Iews , Turks and Insidels : for some Truths are taught by all these , and some of their practises are lawful . But is this such a Communion as the Church Catholic anciently , or as the First four General Councils required ? It is manifest that at the time of your first Separation there was not one Society of Christians in the world to whose Profession of Faith you would subscribe , in whose Religious Worship you would joyn , and by whose Laws you would be governed : So that all Christians then living and visible in the World , were to you as Heathens and Publicans ; and you the very same to them . Were your first Reformers in Communion with them ? Certainly you will not say , that the Roman , Grecian , and Oriental Churches , though they will not deny but you teach some Truths and sometimes practise virtues , do live in your Communion , that is , That Persons mutually excommunicating one another , do at the same time live in one Communion , or that Pastors live in Communion with those who renounce Obedience to them , and abhorr the Faith taught by them . §. 28. P. Why , Sir , would you have us allow such a way of Communion , as you seem to understand , to Societies which we firmly believe do teach damnable Errours , and enjoyn Idolatrous or Superstitious Practises ? Cath. No Sir , by no means . But since there is on earth a visibly holy Catholic Church , placed as a City upon a Hill , with which you must , under pain of damnation , communicate in such a manner as Christians did in the time of the first four General Councils , I adjure you not to rest where you now are , in Schism , from all visible Churches preceding your Separation , but to find Her out ; and having found her out , to depose an overweening conceit of your own abilities to censure and condemn her Doctrines , and with Christian Humility to submit your self entirely to her Guidance , by which means you will be sure to find rest of mind . §. 29. Prot. This seems to me a task too hard to be undertaken . Cath. That which makes it seem so hard to you is , perhaps , a secret whisper of Nature and self-love , telling you , that this may expose you to many worldly disadvantages : or if not this , a strong prejudice by education deeply imprinted in your mind against the Roman Church , the condemning and reviling of which is the subject of most Books you read , and of most of the discourses and Sermons you hear . I name the Roman Church , because I am perswaded , that if you should happen to entertain any Doubts of the security of the Grounds of Protestant Religion , it would not be the Grecian , nor any of the other Oriental Churches , whose Religion you would put in the scales against it , but only the Roman , from whence you had your Christianity , your Church her subsistence , and within the Limits and Iurisdiction of whose Patriarch you live . Do I not judg aright ? Prot. Yes . §. 30. Cath. Then , Sir , though at present you should have no doubts of any Doctrines taught by your Church , or rather in it ( for your self will not allow her the Title of an authentic Teacher , neither does she challenge it ) yet since you have voluntarily fixed your self in such a Church , which , not pretending to an infallible direction from God , cannot with any shew of reason tell you , that you are bound in conscience to believe any one of her Doctrines , nor that it is a sin for you to leave her Communion , and to chuse that of any other Society which you may like better , ( for then all Christians should , as well as you , be obliged to joyn themselves to the English Church only : ) Endeavour , I beseech you , with a mind as disinteressed as may be , to hearken to what may be alledged for the Right which the Roman Church has to challeng your Obedience , so as that the refusal of such Obedience would be an heinous Sin. For this Right indeed She challenges , and She alone : No other ancient Church hath , and no par ticular Sect doth , or can pretend to it . Prot. I am content . §. 31. Cath. First then consider , that the very challenging of such a Right which belongs only to the truly Catholic Church , is a strong proof that She alone is that Church which hath a Right to challenge it , and would prove her self a false Church if She did not challenge it . But because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular Church , I confidently believe , that if the Eastern Church were united in one Body with the Western , you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire Obedience to so great an Authority . Prot. This I willingly acknowledg . §. 32. Cath. Be pleased then to reflect on some Age , when these two great Churches were united : for example , in the days of St. Gregory the Great . Then there was a perfect agreement through the whole World , excepting only the Societies of Ancient Heretics , acknowledged for such by Protestants . Then both Doctrine and Discipline was uniform every where . What St. Gregory taught was accepted through the whole Church : Yea those parts of his Writings which are most opposite to your Doctrines ( as his Dialogues &c. ) have presently after his time been translated into the Greek tongue and with veneration received by that Church : Whence will follow , that what he hath taught us in his Writings , touching Points of Religion , and which you most mislike , was then esteem'd true Catholic Doctrine . Now what does St. Gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the Roman Church ? In all Controversies lately raised between Catholics and Protestants , he is constantly and directly against Protestants . This is so manifest , that it is acknowledged by many learned Protestants , who describing the particular Points of Religion professed by St. Gregory ( and St. Augustine the Monk , sent by him to convert England ) name these , Freewill , Merit and Iustification of Works , Pennance , Satisfaction , Purgatory , Celibacy of Priests , publick Invocation of Saints , and Worshipping of them , Veneration of Images , Exorcisms , Pardons , Vows , Monachism , Transubstantiation , Prayer for the Dead , Oblation of Christ's Body and Blood for the Dead , the Roman Bishop's Iurisdiction over all Churches , Celebration of Mass , Consecrations of Churches , Altars , Chalices , Corporals and Fonts of Baptism , Veneration of Relicks , Sprinkling of Holy-Water , Dedicating Churches to the Bones and Ashes of Saints , Indulgencies to such as visit Churches on certain days , Pilgrimages , and in a word , the whole Chaos of Popish Superstition , as they are pleased to stile it . So that Mr. Ascham affirms of our Apostle St. Augustine the Disciple of St. Gregory , that He was the overthrower of true Religion , and the establisher of all Popish Doctrines ▪ and another saith of him , That he subjected England to the lust of Antichrist , ( which Antichrist you must take for granted , was St. Gregory ) and therefore after his death , went undoubtedly to Hell , there to receive his reward . Thus evident Convictions forced them to confess that all the Doctrines of Faith now taught , were then professed as Catholic Doctrines : but gall and malice against the Church , suggested such foul , unseemly words to their Pens . Notwithstanding Protestant Writers , when , not being engaged in controversie , they have occasion to treat of St. Gregory himself , they are not sparing in their Elogies of him , such as these : He was a holy and a learned Bishop . He was by Name and indeed truly Great , adorned with many and great endowments of Divine Grace , and ( as he is often styled ) the mouth and shining light of our Lord. He was truly a pious man , and for his Christian humility yet more to be praised . From his Infancy being addicted to the studies of Piety , he retired into a Monastery , where shewing a particular sanctity of life , and being wholly intent upon Prayer , he drew the eyes of all men upon him — He did so discharge the Pontifical Office , that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him . He was exceedingly renowned for Miracles , &c. Now me thinks , Sir , the consent of the Eastern and Western Churches , under the Government of such a Prelate , so versed as he was in holy Scripture ( witness his Sermons and Commentaries ) should be so prevalent with you , as to make you suspect your own Reason , if it suggests to you that the Religion , professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous . § , 33. Prot. But why do you say , that the Universal Church in the East and West was governd by Saint Gregory , when he himself sharply condemned the Patriarch of Constantinople for assuming such a Title as Universal Bishop , which he calls an Antichristian Title . Cath. It was indeed a Title full of arrogance , and therefore justly condemned by St. Gregory in the Notion , in which he conceived it might be understood , as if the Patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate Bishop in the [ Eastern ] Church . For thence it would follow , that all other Bishops were only his Substitutes , acting by his commission , and removeable by him at pleasure : Whereas they claim a reception of their Order and Character , immediately from Christ alone . Such a new Title therefore it was that St. Gregory condemned in that Patriarch , and abhorred to accept himself , as plainly appears by his Epistles . But yet that he had a Superintendence over the whole Church as Supreme Pastor thereof , to receive and judge Appeals of Bishops from all Parts in causis majoribus ; to oblige all Prelates , even Patriarchs , to the Profession of the Faith established in Councils , and the observance of the Churches Laws , and to impose Ecclesiastical Censures on all Transgressors of them , this St. Gregory challenged , and to this the Prelates both of the Western , and Eastern Churches also submitted , as appears by many Epistles sent by him , and Answers received from several Patriarchs , and other Prelates in the East . §. 34. Since therefore it is confessedly certain , that the present Roman Church professes the same Religion which Saint Gregory taught and planted in England , which the Eastern Church in those times approved without any contradiction , and which is now condemned by Protestants ; it will evidently follow , that in those few Points in which the present Eastern Churches quarrel with the Roman , the said Eastern Churches only have been Innovators ; and consequently that the Roman Church ( that is , all Churches united in subordination to the Prime Patriarch and Pastor ) still remains the Catholic Church , and enjoys the same Authority which the Universal Church in , and before , St. Gregories days enjoyed : So that all Christians who break from her Communion , do thereby shew themselves Schismaticks , and Self-condemned . §. 35. I have purposely made choice to instance in the time of St. Gregory the Great , because on the one side several Protestants impute the beginning of the Churches depravation principally to that Age ; and on the other side Almighty God , as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that Age , especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all Prophesies , foreshewing the glory of the Catholic Church , which is the Conversion of Nations from Heathenish Idolatry . The Prophesies themselves are thus expresly set down in the Old Testament , and acknowledged by Protestants to regard the Christian Church , The Prophet Isai writes thus : Isa. 60. 2 , 3. The Lord shall rise upon thee , and his Glory shall be seen upon thee . ver . 5. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light , and Kings to the brightness of thy rising — ver . 10. The abundance of the Sea shall be converted unto thee : the forces of the Gentiles , shall come unto thee — ver . 11. The sons of Strangers shall build thy walls , and their Kings shall minister unto thee . ver . 14. Thy Gates shall be open continually , that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles , and their Kings may be brought — All they that despise thee , shall bow themselves at the soles of thy feet , and they shall call thee , The City of the Lord — ver . 22. A little one shall become a thousand , and a small one a strong Nation . Again , Isai. 49. 23. Kings shall be thy nursing Fathers , and Queens thy nursing Mothers . And again Isai. 39. 21. This is my Covenant with them , saith the Lord , My Spirit which is upon thee , and my words which I have put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy Seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed , saith the Lord , from henceforth and for ever . Also the Kingly Prophet , Psal. 11. 8. I will give thee the Heathen for thine Inheritance , and the ends of the earth for thy possession . This Kingdom , ( saith the Prophet Daniel ) Shall not be given over to another people , but shall stand for ever , Dan. 11. 44. These are Gods Promises to his Church , so acknowledged by Protestants . Now it is manifest out of Ecclesiastical History , that these Prophecies began not , in a signal manner , to be accomplished , till the days of Saint Gregory . For during the first three hundred years , the Church was wholly under Persecution , and was encreased chiefly by sufferings . In the next three hundred years , the Emperour Constantine being converted to Christianity , there were but few other Kings Foster-fathers of the Church ; And besides this , several of the Emperours , and some Kings during that space , turned Arians and Apostates from the Catholic Faith. But from Saint Gregories time till Luther , it is incredible almost what we read of the Conversion of Nations and Kingdoms , and of the wonderful Piety and zeal of ( once Barbarous ) Kings and Queens , assoon as they had embraced the Catholic Faith. Which Conversions were generally made by the fervor , care , and authority first of St. Gregory himself ; as England can , but most ungratefully will not , as becomes her , witness ; and next of St. Gregories Successors , Bishops of Rome . §. 36. Now , Sir , consider the force of illgrounded prejudices . Several Protestants , though they saw all the formentioned Prophesies perfectly fulfilled by Catholic Missioners , yet out of the pre-assumed hatred to Catholic Religion , they will not acknowledg the forsaking Idols and worship of Devils , and the embracing of the Catholic Faith to be a Conversion , but rather a Perversion , and therefore wonder that they do not to this day see those Prophecies accomplished , which were made above two thousands years since , In so much as Castalio Professes , The more I do peruse the Scriptures , the less do I find these Promises performed , howsoever they are to be understood . David George , a Protestant living at Basil , upon the same grounds became a Blasphemer of Christ , whom he called a Seducer . Bernardin Ochin turned an Apostate , denying they Divinity of Christ. Adam Neuserus , a Calvinist Professor at Heydelberg , turned Turk , and was circumcised at Constantinople . Alemannus likewise renouncing Christianity became a blasphemous Iew. And the principal motive of all these horrible changes , was an opinion that these Prophecies were false Dreams , or impudent inventions of Sectaries , and never fulfilled , because forsooth not fulfilled in a Church of their Reformed Religion , which Reform'd Religion never banished Pagan Idolatry out of one Village . Some conversions indeed of their own particular mode they have made , for by seditions they have banished Catholic Religion out of several places . And particularly the Hollanders may brag , that they have converted the great Empire of Iapan from the Catholic Faith to its pristine most execrable Idolatries ; to effect which , they have procured the most cruel murder of near four hundred thousand Catholic Martyrs , themselves in the mean time renouncing the open Profession of Christianity . §. 37. Notwithstanding the truth is , the wonderful Conversions of Nations in former and later times also , by Catholick Missioners , have been so illustrious , that very many of the soberer Protestant Writers have highly exalted their zeal and unwearied deligence in their Apostolical functions , and glorified God for it : being forced hereto by the many undeniable Miracles wrought by them . Yet the pleasant cunning of one Luther an Writer is very remarkable : his name is Dr. Philip Nicolai , who having written a Book on this very Argument , to wit , the fulfilling of the fore-cited Prophesies , touching the Conversion of Nations , is forced to alledg the examples not only ancient , as of the Saxons , Frisons , Danes , Germans , &c. converted by Catholic Bishops and Priests ; but later also , as of innumerable People in the East and West-Indies , reduced from Idols to Christianity by Iesuits and other Religious Missioners ; and to acknowledge likewise that God testified the Doctrine preached to them , by stupendious Miracles . All this , this Lutheran confesses ; but then with a turn , he deprives Catholics of the glory and merit of all their labours , and applies it to his own Sect : for he tells his Readers , that all these Apostolical Preachers , in converting Nations , did Luther anizare ; and that the Iesuits in their first converting the Oriental Indians , did shew themselves [ not Roman Catholics , but ] Lutherans and Evangelicks Might he not have said as well , that Christ's Apostles converted Nations , not as such , but as Lutherans ? §. 38. Now if these Prophesies be Divine , and have indeed been fulfilled , they have been fulfilled by Catholics only , and consequently Catholic Religion constitutes that Church of Christ to which such glorious Predictions were made . I will therefore here adjoyn the words of St. Augustine , who having alledged out of the Scripture many such Prophesies ; concludes thus : Whilst thou holdest thy self fast to these Prophesies , if an Angel from Heaven should say to thee , Leave the Christianity of the whole Earth and chuse the part of the [ Shismatic ] Donatus , Luther , Calvin , Tindal , &c. ] he ought to be to thee Anathema ; because he would endeavour to cut thee off from the whole , and thrust thee up into one part , so alienating thee from the Promises of God. §. 39. These , Sir , among many other , are grounds surely sufficient to justifie the Right which the Roman Church has to merit your Obedience : I beseech you think seriously on them . For mine own part , I do sincerely protest to you , that unless I would renounce all other Guides to eternal Happiness , but an over-weaning Fancie of mine own abilities , or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church : if Divine Revelation , consent of Antiquity , manifest Reason , and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me , I must not be a Protestant , I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic . For Divine Revelation ( interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils ) informs me , that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church , which is , one holy and Catholic , the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians ; that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World : and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church , is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ , and shall be eternally separated from Him. Again , evident Reason shews , that no Person , or Society , can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way , than by believing its Doctrines , and being subject to its Laws and Government . In the third place , the testimony of our Senses assures us , that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines , or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all ( and consequently not of the Catholic Church , ) which had a being at their first ( pretended ) Reformation : therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows , that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism . Moreover , since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers , once were Members , and by reforming made a separation from it , and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians ; and again , since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture , and by the Holy Fathers , can be so applied , and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished , as the Roman ; it will evidently follow , that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church , which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines , in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church , are taught by Protestants , they are thereby , without any particular discussion , legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies . Now Heresie and Schism being by all ( even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves ) acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes , of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church , nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion ; I conceive I have , without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes , given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you , viz. Why are you a Catholic ? §. 40. And for a conclusion , Sir , give me leave to tell you , that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the [ stigmata ] brands of Heresie and Schism , by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies , to be stated out of Books : For , till you be able to shew a present Visible , Orthodox Church , the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles , which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman , teaches as you do , and either governs you , or is governed by you ; Till this , I say be done , your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind , but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others . Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her : for by no other way can you ( nor your Teachers ) avoid Self-condemnation , as manifest Innovators . There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers , to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks , such are Unity ; Succession , Universality , Converting of Nations , Miracles , &c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities , to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church . Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you ; and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church . §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you , all you can say is , That you teach truth , and that you duly administer the Sacraments ; that is , you would prove your selves to be a true Church , because you say you are a true Church ; for ( not the marks , but ) the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth , &c. But marks of his Church , easily observable by all men , were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned , to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth , and duly administers his Sacraments . Not any such marks do you pretend to shew , And as for this your miscalled , single Mark , the Unlearned cannot possibly judg , whether you do indeed teach Truth , &c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg . And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth , &c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism , but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church , which you believe in the Creed , it would ( notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you ) be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you . These things considered , since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point , I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare , according to the method observed here , a tolerable general answer , sufficient to vindicate your Church ; in case I should by way of exchange , propose to you this Question . Why are you a Protestant ? Prot. Judg not , Sir , too hastily . Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect . In the mean time I thank you for your Charity : And , God willing , I will seriously reflect on what hath been said . Cath. Farewel , Sir , and , if you think good , cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church , who will tell you , that upon the very same grounds , which have been here discoursed on , they were good Christians and Catholics . Prot. If they tell me so , I shall not easily contemn what they tell me . Farewel . ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE . §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence . Visibility , &c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetae●de Christo , quam de Ecclesia , Puto propterea ] The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ , than concerning the Church . The reason hereof I conceive to be , because they foresaw in Spirit , that men would make divisions and parties , and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself , but that they would raise great contentions about the Church . Therefore that was more plainly foretold , and more openly prophecyed concerning which , greater contentions would in succeeding times be raised to the end a heavier judgment should befall those who saw [ the Church ] and yet fled out of it . Quis numeret testimonia de Ecclesia toto Orbe terrarum diffusa ? Quis Who can number the testimonies given [ in Scripture ] touching the Church spread over the whole earth ? who can number them ? There are not in the whole world so many Heresies against the Church as there are Testimonies in the [ old ] Law for the Church . What page there does not proclaim this ? what verse does not mention it ? All passages there cry out aloud for the Unity of our Lords Body ; for he has placed peace through the borders of Hierusalem : Now thou , O Heretick , barkest against all these Testimonies : And therefore that whch is written in the Apocalypse is justly verified in that City , Without are dogs . Thou barkest against these [ Testimonies ] From what Tribunal dost thou judg ? Thy Tribunal is the presumption of thine own heart . It is a lofty , but a ruinous Tribunal . Exaltare super coelos , Deus , & super omnem terram gloria tua — ] Be thou exalted , O God , above the Heavens , and thy Glory over all the earth , My Bretheren , we have not seen God exalted above the Heavens ; yet we believe it . But we not only believe , but we see his Glory exalted over all the Earth [ in his Church . ] Now I beseech you observe what a madness it is which possesses Heretics . They being cut off from the compacted Body of the Church of Christ , and by holding a part being deprived of the whole , will not communicate with the whole earth , over which the glory of Christ , is spread . O Heretical Madness ! Thou believest with me that which thou doest not see : and thou deniest that which both thou and I do see . Thou believest with me that Christ is exalted above the Heavens , which neither of us hath seen : and thou deniest his glory over all the earth , which we both see . In sole posuit Tabernaculum suum — ] He has placed his Tabernacle in the Sun , that is , in a place manifest ( to all ) His Tabernacle is his flesh : His Tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sun : not in the night but in the day . Tanquam ille , quem catechizamus , quaereret & diceret , quo ergo signo — ] If a Catechumen should be inquisitive , and say , But by what sign shall I , being as yet a little one and unable clearly to discern the truth from so many errours , by what mark , I say , shall I find the Church of Christ , to believe which , I am obliged by so many manifest predictions ? Hereto the Prophet , as if he had a perfect knowledge of the Catechumens scruples , answers , teaching him , that this is foretold to be the Church of Christ , which is raised on high and apparent to all ; For she is the seat of his Glory . For in regard of such doubts as may befal the simpler sort of Christians , who may be seduced by ( crafty ) men from the Church so gloriously manifest , our Lord providing a remedy , saith , A City which is set upon a mountain cannot be hid . Christo tales maledicunt , qui — ] Those do blaspheme Christ , who affirm that the Church hath perished from off the whole earth , and remained only on [ Africa , Geneva , England Holland , &c. §. 2. Of the Catholic Churches Unity : and of Schism . §. 43. Una est Ecclesia quaecunque illa sit — ) There is one only Church , whichsoever that is , of which it is written , my dove ( my undesiled ) is but one , she is the only one of her Mother ; neither can there be so many Churches as there are Shisms , [ O this Position both the Schismatics , Donatists and St. Augustin were agreed . Perirem si essem departe Pauli — ) I should perish ( eternally ) if I were of a party of which St. Paul was the leader : How then shall I avoid perdition if I be of the party of Donatus ( of Luther , Calvin , Tindall , & c ? ) Quamvis Novatianus — ) Though ( the Schismatic ) Novatian hath been put to death [ for the Faith , ] yet he hath not been crowned . Why not Crowned ? Because he died out of the peace , concord and communion of the Church , separated from that common Mother , of whom whosoever will be a Martyr , must be a Member . We ought rather to endure any torments , than consent to the dividing of Gods Church : Since the Martyrdom , to which we expose our selves by hindring a division of the Church , is no less glorious , then that which is suffered for refusing to Sacrifice to Idols . Si in Navi pericula sunt — ] If there be dangers to those who are ein the Ship , there is certain drowning to those who are out of it . In montem sanctum tuum — ] Into his Holy Mountain . His holy Mountain is his Holy Church . This is the Mountain which according to the Vision of Daniel , grew to this vastness from a small stone and breaks all the Kingdoms of the earth , and which encreased in greatness till it filled the whole surface of the earth . In this Mountain he was heard , who said , I cryed with my voice unto the Lord , and he heard me from his holy Mountain . Whosoever prays besides this Mountain , let him not hope to be heard to eternal life . Many are heard in many of their requests ; but let them not boast because they are heard . The Devils were heard in their request to be sent into the Swine , Let us desire to be heard to eternal life . There cannot possibly be made any Reformation of such importance , as the mischief of Schism is pernicious . Nobiscum estis in Baptismo — ] You ( Donatists ) are with us in Baptism , in the Creed , and in the other Sacrament of our Lord. But in the Spirit of Unity , in the Bond of Peace , and finally in the Catholic Church you are not with us . Tenenda est nobis Christiana Religio — ) Christian Religion is to be held by us , and the Communion of that Church which is Catholic , and is named Catholic , not only by her children , but also even by her enemies . Fieri non potest — ) It cannot possibly be , that any one should have a just cause to separate his Communion from the Communion of the whole world . Ut hanc omittam sapientiam — ] Not to speak of that Wisdom , which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church , there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom : the consent of people and Nations keeps me : the authority begun by miracles , nourished by hope , encreased by charity , established by antiquity keeps me there : A succession of Bishops from the Chair of St. Peter ( to whom our Lord after his Ascension committed his Sheep to be fed ) to the present pontificate , keeps me there , Lastly , the very Name of Catholic keeps me there , which name the Church alone among so many Heresies hath not without just reason possessed , insomuch as though all Heretics are desirous to be called Catholics , yet if a stranger asketh any of them where the Catholic Congregation meets , not any of them has the boldness to shew him his own Temple . These therefore so many and so great bonds , keep a believer firm in the Catholic Church , although by reason of his natural dulness , and perhaps his sins , he does not manifestly see and penetrate the depth of Divine Truths . But among you ( Heretics ) who have none of these advantages to invite or hold me , nothing is heard to sound , but a ( vain ) promise of true Doctrine , &c. Firmissime tene , et nullatenus dubites — ] Hold most firmly and doubt not at all that every Heretic or Schismatic baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost , if [ before he Dies ] he be not joyned and incorporated into the Catholic Church , he can by no means be saved , though he should give never so many Alms , yea though he should shed his Blood for the Name of Christ ; For neither Baptism nor liberal distributing of Alms , nor the undergoing death for the Name of Christ can profit any one to Salvation , as long as Heretical or Schismatical lewdness perseveres in him , which leadeth to [ eternal ] death . §. 3. Of the Catholic Churches Authority . Of interpreting Scripture . Saint Augustine informs us that a certain acquaintance of his derided the Disciples of Catholic Faith , by which men were commanded to believe [ the Church ] not being taught by demonstrative Reasons what was true . To satisfie this Friend , he wrote his Book De Utilitate credendi [ Ecclesiae ] in which he writes thus , It is fitly instituted by the Majesty of Catholic Discipline , that those who come to Religion , should before all other things be perswaded to believe [ the Church ] But you will say , were it not better that Reason should be employed to move me , which without any temerity I might follow withersoever it leads me ? Perhaps it might be so : But since to come to the knowledge of God by Reason is a matter of so great importance and difficulty , do you think that generally all men are capable of searching into the Reasons by which mens minds may be brought to a knowledg of Divine Mysteries ? Or are the greatest number of men such ? or but a few ? I suppose you will answer , But a few . If so , do you think that the knowledg of Religion is to be denyed to all the rest , who have not so piercing a Judgment ? — — It is a miserable thing to be deceived by Authority ; but it is much more miserable not to be moved by it . If Gods Providence does not preside over human affairs , there will be no cause why we should trouble our selves about Religion — We ought not therefore to despair that some Authority is constituted by God , by which those who walk doubtfully may be raised up to God. Puto si quis Sapiens extitisset — ] I conceive that if there were extant a wise man to whom our Lord had given his Testimony , [ viz. that he should be directed by him : ] and if that man were consulted by us concerning this controversie , we should not at all doubt to do whatsoever he enjoyned us , least we should be adjudged to oppose our selves , not so much to that man himself , as to our Lord Jesus Christ , by whose Testimony he is recommended . Now such Testimony doth our Lord afford to his Church . Haeretici qui cum in unitate — ] Heretics , who though they be not in Catholic Unity and Communion , yet Glory in the title of Christians , are compelled to oppose Orthodox Believers , and they have the boldness to attempt the seducing unskilful Christians by force of disputing and Reasoning , whereas our Lord came with a peculiar Medicine against this , when he enjoyned ( not reasoning , but ) Believing to all people . But Heretics are forced to take the way of arguing by reason , because they see themselves in a most abject Condition , if their Authority be compared with Catholic Authority . Therefore they endeavour to prevail by a pretence and promise of Reason against the most unshaken Authority of the firmly established Church . This is the uniform , and , as it were , regular temerity of all Heretics . But the most clement Emperor of our Faith has fortified with the Citadel of Authority his Church , both by numerous Congregations of People and Nations , and the Chairs of his Apostles ; He also by a few piously learned and truly Spiritual men has armed his Church with most copious provisions of invincible Reason . But the more secure and rational Discipline is , That those who are ignorant or infirm should be received within the Castle of Faith ( depending on Authority ) that they may be defended by those who can combate with the weapons of most powerful Reason . Noc nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere — ) Neither durst we affirm any such thing ( viz. that Hereties ought not to be rebaptized ) if we were not strengthned by the unanimous Authority of the universal Church : To which Authority , no doubt , Cyprian ( who held the contrary ) would have submitted , if in his time the truth of this question had been established by the examination and decision of a Plenary Council . Proinde quamvis hujus rei certe de Scripturis Canonicis non proferatur exemplum — ) Although no express example can be brought out of Canonical Scriptures touching this Point ( of rebaptization : ) yet the truth of the same Scriptures in this matter is held by us , when we do that which has pleased the Universal Church , which the Authority of Scripture themselves does commend , That since the Holy Scripture cannot deceive ( us , ) he whosoever is in fear of being deceived by the obscurity of this question , may consult the same Church about it , which Church the holy Scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate . Aliud est cum Authoritati credimus - ) It is one thing when we believe , submitting to Authority ; and another when we yield to reason , To believe Authority is a way very compendious and without labour . Et si nulla ratione indagetur ) Whatsoever is from Ancient times preached by our Orthodox Faith , and believed through the whole Church , though by no search of reason it can be found out , and though by no speech it can be clearly expressed , yet notwithstanding it is ( to be acknowledged ) most true . Haeretici sunt sibi arbitri Religionis - ) Heretics are to themselves judges of Religion ; Whereas the proper work of Religion is the Duty of Obedience ( to Authority . Non ad Scripturas provocandum est - ) We must not ( disputing with Heretics ) appeal to Scripture . Neither is the debate to be constituted in things , in which either no victory at all will follow , or an uncertain one , or little better than uncertain . For though the success of examining Scriptures should not be such , that each party should have no advantage over the other ; yet due order requires that that should be first proposed , about which at present we are to dispute , viz. to which of the parties ( the preaching of ) Faith belongs : who have right to the Scriptures : from whom , and by whom , and when , and to whom that Discipline has been delivered by which men are made Christians : For where the Truth both of Christian Discipline and Faith shall appear to be , there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions , and all Christian Traditions . Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia — ) Amongst such things , whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world , to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein , is a mark of most insolent madness . Scire sufficit — ) It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church . Dicet aliquis , si Divinis eloquiis ) It may be demanded , how , if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures , Sentences and Promises , of whom some are false Apostles , others false Prophets , and all of them Heretics : What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do ? How shall they discern truth from falshood in ( interpreting ) Holy Scriptures ? Hereto we answer , ( according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us ) that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church , and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine . THE SECOND QUESTION : BUT , WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT ? §. 45 CAth. Sir , Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse ? Prot. Yes . Cath. And have you found either in Scripture . Tradition , Councils , or Holy Fathers , any warrant to remain divided , both in Doctrine and Discipline , from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth ; and at the same time to profess , notwithstanding , a Belief of One , Holy , Catholic Church , out of whose Communion there is no Salvation . Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours : Quotations , I mean , asserting the Authority of particular , or new-erected Churches , independent on others . Cath. Then since , it seems , both Scripture , Tradition , Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you , Why are you ( still ) a Protestant ? §. 46. Prot. Sir , I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment , and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance . But hitherto not having been able to find such an one , I must be content to stay where I am : For as for the Roman Church , to whose Communion alone you would invite me , she appears to me so wholly depraved , that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion . Cath. I see , Sir , that you , despairing to justifie your own Churches , and to excuse them from Schism , do seek to draw me to particular Disputes : By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all , whatever the success of such Disputes shall be : For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you . However I will not refuse so far to comply with you . Therefore tell me , Wherein consists that depravation you speak of ? Prot. It consists in this , that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed , as on purpose to comply with wordly interests : and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity . Cath. How does that appear ? §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that ( as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes ) all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn , and for which we separate from your Church , are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness . Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition ? Prot. These which here follow : 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone , with exclusion of all other Churches . 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority . 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies . 4. His usurped Temporal Authority . 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests , by consecrating the outward Symbols , to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter . 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father . 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration . 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession , and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them . 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits . Thus your Clergy , not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation ; would instill Pride into the people also . §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness . Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines . 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory , out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses , Alms , &c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences . 3. The Invocation of Saints . 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks : To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings , &c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation , made by the infamous Apostate you named , if rightly considered , truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere ; yet not in the Church , but much rather in those who seperated from her . For it strongly argues , that , since , to oppose her , they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour , Authority and Wealth of the Clergy ; the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church , were , not any zeal for Truth , or care for their Souls ( for they acknowledg her Orthodox , as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics . ) That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy , Hatred of Obedience , and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours . Now Sir , tell me sincerely , If you were to establish a Church , would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam , who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People ; or God himself , who instituted a splendid Clergy ? Prot. It cannot indeed be denied , but that contemptible , needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them , having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind , and stiled them the Light of the world , and the Salt of the Earth . §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment , they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions . But , Sir , if you please , let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God , to whom alone they are open and transparent . However , this may with full assurance be asserted , That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives , they were , and will be , the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations . §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side : And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us , absolutely and in themselves . And so doing , you must give me leave to say , That this also may with full assurance be asserted , that , whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to require Belief of them , we cannot assent to them without rendring our selves guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture generally in them all , and no less than the heynous Crimes of Superstition and Idolatry in several of them . Cath. I do not much wonder to hear from you so a cruel a Censure of our Catholic Belief . Yea , perhaps I should my self joyn with you in the like , if I should take a prospect of the Church by the same false Light that I perceive you have done . Prot. Why , Sir , from whence should I receive Light to discover what you teach , but from our Controvertists ? §. 52. Cath. I did not at all doubt from whence that which you call Light came . And therefore permit me to tell you , that if you frame your judgment touching the Faith , of Catholics by what you find commonly in Controvertists , you will condemn you know not what , nor whom . Prot. This is strange : Do none of our Controvertists understand what your Church teaches ? §. 53. Cath. What , and how much they understand I cannot define . But this I may with confidence say , that generally judging of your Controvertists , not a twentieth part of one of their Volumes contains an examination of the necessary Faith of the Church , which Faith notwithstanding is pretended to be confuted in every Page . Prot. Notwithstanding what you say , yet your Controvertists also in answering our Books , do take on them to defend whatsoever ours oppose as the Doctrines of your Church . Cath. It is too true indeed of some of them ; who deserve much to be blamed for giving thereby occasion to our Adversaries to multiply unnecessary Debates , by a partial esteem of their own private , adopted Opinions , of their peculiar Interpretations of the Churches Doctrines , their probable Additions to them , and Inferences from them : all which they are desirous should pass for Points of Catholic Faith. Besides this , several Schoolmen there are , whose end of Writing being to boast their Wit and Subtilty , who will penetrate into all things ; no Mysteries shall be incomprehensible to their Philosophy , and who think it a great Mastery to advance Positions bordering on the very brink of Heresie , Speculative or Moral , and then by some nice Distinction to prove them , if not Orthodox , at least not deserving the utmost Censures . And of these mens rashness Protestants oft-times take advantage , and zealously oppose them , as if the Church were obliged to make good their aery Speculations . §. 54. Prot. What Expedient then do you propose to me by which I may be certainly informed of your Churches Doctrines . Cath. The way is plain , easie and short , if you will look before you and not wilfully go out of it . Prot. I pray you put me into that way . Cath. The way is to examine candidly and seriously the Churches own Decisions only , which if you do , you will find how little she is concern'd in the accusations you lay against her . Prot. If this prove true , surely our Modern Controvertists have a dreadful Account to make to God , who seem studiously to design the widening of the breaches amongst Christians . Cath. That what I say is true , I dare take the confidence to make your self the Iudge . And this I undertake to demonstrate through all the controverted Points before mentioned by you , not by disputing , alledging Proofs , or answering Objections ; but only by representing to you , in a simple manner , the pure , naked Doctrine of the Church in relation to all these Points . Prot. I am likewise sufficiently averse from clamorous Disputes , which commonly are only Prizes of a quick Fancie or voluble tongue , and fomentors of unruly Passions . Therefore I expect what you intend to say . §. 55. Cath. Before I begin , I have a few Requests ( in my judgment not unreasonable ) to make to you . The first is , 1. That ( having supposed that upon a true or false Belief Eternity of Happiness or Misery depends ) you would force your Imagination to put your self in that state in which your first Reformers really were , immediately before they broke from the Churches Obedience and Communion , and supposing that you were earnestly tempted by them also to forsake it , by adhering to a New-begun Society , never heard of in the world before , upon a pretence that the Church in which you live , and which you as yet esteem to be the true Catholic Church , teaches most pernicious Errours , Superstitions , and Idolatrous practices : Of the Justice of which pretence your Tempters , now declared Enemies , will needs be the Iudges . Prot. This I will endeavour to perform . §. 56. 2. Cath. My Second Request is , That you will acknowledge that the Doctrines of Catholic Faith , once decided by the Church , are to be understood in the plain literal Sence , and in the latitude of the Churches expression . And by consequence that when they are severally restrained to different particular Senses by interpretation of Catholic writers , such Interpretations are not necessarily to be admitted by you : And much less are other Doctrins , by inference drawn from them , to be esteemed Points of Catholic Faith , but only Opinions of particular Divines , which do not oblige to Assent . Prot. This ought in reason to be acknowleged . §. 57. 3. Cath. My third and last Request is , That , when your Tempters shall tell you that the Catholic Church teaches Dostrins contrary to Scripture , you would acknowledge that unless such a pretended Contrariety can be evidently demonstrated to you , you ought not for that cause to forsake the Churches Communion : For undoubtedly ; where her Doctrines seem only probably contrary to some Text of Scripture , her Authority is such as to oblige you to belive that her Sence ought to be preferred before that of her Enemies , who are desstitute of all Authority . And it would be madness to transgress the necessary Duty of peaceful Obedience and of avoiding Schism , upon a probable hope of finding some Truths , elsewhere . Prot. Reason requires that this also be granted . §. 58. Cath. These concessions therefore being presupposed , give me leave to put you in mind of what you said at the entrance into this our Discourse , viz. That , this may be with full assurance asserted , that you cannot assent to any of those Doctrines taught by the Roman Church , and rejected by your Party , without rendering your self guilty of apparent contradicting Scripture . Prot. I remember this well : but how will you disprove me ? Cath. If this Perswasion of yours were well grounded , it would be not only in vain , but unlawful for me to seek to withdraw you from it . But being on the other side assured , that what you say is apparent , is only so in a false appearance to your mind prepossessed ; I hope I may without vanity promise to demonstrate to you , that you only think , an this without Ground , that you are assured . Prot. You make large Promises to your self , which I believe will have small effect upon me . Cath. Sir , Truth and a Good intention make me confident , that Divine Grace , which is Omnipotent , will accompany them . Whereas therefore you say , That Roman Doctrines are apparently , or evidently contrary to Scripture : I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church , at the same time , both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers , and also gave them the Scriptures , testifying that they were the infallible Word of God. Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation . Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned , and those in a far greater number , than among Protestants , Men , I say , who also make the Scriptures their principal study , and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them ; again , Men , of whom a great number live sequestred from the world , in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer , and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests : Yet not any one of these does see , or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word : on the contrary , they invincibly demonstrate , that the Church has been , as the only Depository of Scripture , so likewise of the true Sence of it : How comes then that to be evident to you , which is invisible to them ? Which way went the Spirit of God , from the whole Church , to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer , or a stigmatized Pichard , upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence ? If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these , The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church : Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ ; We ought not to confess our sins to Priests : Purgatory is a meer humane invention : It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints , but none to desire Sinners , to pray for us , &c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church , that she contradicts Scripture . But where are such sayings to be found , except it be in the Heretical Writings , of your Reformers ? On the contrary , some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture ; and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences , and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority , by which we receive the Scripture it self , Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture : and however I suppose you will not say , that silence is equivolent to express contradiction . The utmost that you can say is , that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church ; But what will that avail you , since Probability ( as hath been said ) will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience , and incurring the horible guilt of Schism . Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture ? Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point , when , according to your promise , you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us . §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now , with Gods assistance , discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning . And first as touching the two first Points , viz. 1. The Churches Authority . 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction , &c. enough hath been said in our former discourse . Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more . Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics , That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word , and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith. Now this general Ground being presupposed , in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed , it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies , and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms . And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time , and this declared by the Council of Trent . That no man trusting to his own prudence ( or skill ) shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine , wresting it to his own sences , against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth , or hath held ( to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures ) or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers ? This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture . No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe . Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel , because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her , should prevail against your single judgment , or that of a few Apostat-Ministers : Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors , that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth , till the end of the world , so as that the gates of Hell ( that is , say the Fathers , Heresies ) should never prevail against them . Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this . §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome . Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent , I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches : and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome , Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles , and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches , and the Pope Vicar of Christ , his universal Iurisdiction , is therein acknowledged , which Jurisdiction , or Authority , we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted : but ( as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor , Patriark and other Bishops of Greece ) to be exercised [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. ] after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons . And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon ( admitted by Protestants ) does acknowledg in him : which is also attested by Tradition , and practice from the beginning . §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded . The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority , against which can lye no Appeal , is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council , by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined , all necessary Laws enacted , &c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty , especially since the division of the Roman Empire , to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions , and yet Unity , essential to the Church , being always to be preserved , which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent , hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles , has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church , to take care that the common established Laws , former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed ; to prevent any innovations in Doctrine ; and also to end Controversies among Catholics ( if any arise ) at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them : by which all Schisms are prevented ; and also Heresies , that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed : and lastly to judg in causis majoribus ; when quarrels arise among Patriarks , Metropolitans , &c. Thus stands the case ; and now I appeal to your own Conscience , whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church : And whether if you were appointed , and also enabled , to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body , Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you . Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor . §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir , I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is , there must of necessity be a Government ; and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor . And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History , I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves . For if , as some among us pretend , the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters , and no degrees of authority among Bishops , it could not possibly have happened , that a few unarmed Bishops , not assisted by Secular Power , should , so immediately after the Apostles , have subdued such a world of Presbiters , formerly supposed their equals , to their Iurisdiction , and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted , or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny . And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans , Primate , Patriarks ; and of all these to the Supream Pastor : Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages . Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome , as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision , is very much abated . Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this ( to you formerly ) Rock of offence , I may , I suppose , proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist , &c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction . Prot. No , Sir , You go too fast : For , though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church , upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope , as has been acknowledged by General Councils , and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons , since , I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs . But your Church will not be contented with this : for she will extend it also to Temporal matters , even to the disposing of Kingdoms , deposing of Princes , absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture , &c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority ? Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that : but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it , and as by Divine Right . Cath. How do you ground such an assurance ? you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof , because some of his Predecessors have challenged it , when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it . But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it : Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due . Prot. No truly : especially if that Authority , to which he pretended , endangers the ruine of Kingdoms , or the utter banishment of Peace every where . For such an Authority , I am sure , was never established on earth by our Saviour , who is the Prince of Peace . And that which makes me assured hereof is this , because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world , he would have left in Scripture , or Tradition , most express proofs of such his will , in a matter of that infinite importance : whereas the quite contrary rather appears . Cath. You say well . But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due , when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him , or to acknowledg the justice of it ? Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority ? §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material . But to rectify your mistake , I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day : and thence you may collect what must be required from you , in case you are a Catholic . Prot. You will much oblige me therein . Cath. Then , it cannot be denyed that ( besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions , of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign ) several Popes in former times have both Challenged , and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires . Which Iurisdiction , if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just , yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings , either obnoxious and unable to resist , or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels . Several examples hereof remain in our Records , particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third . But generally Princes , when freed from such exigences , have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times , and cast our view on the present state of Christendom , we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions , that not any of them will permit Rescripts , Bulls or Mandats from Rome , though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs ( unless touching private inferior persons ) to be published , and much less executed within their states , till examined and approved in their respective Councils . Nay more then this : even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent , as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes , have always been refused to be admitted in France , the Pope not only knowing , but expresly allowing such refusal ; as appears by the Bull of Pope Clement the eight sent to King Henry the fourth , at his reception into the Church , and recited by Cardinal Perron in his Epistles : in which Bull we find this Clause ; His Majesty shall effectually take order that the Council of Trent he published and admitted in all things , Excepting only ( at your must earnest Supplication and Petition ) those things , if there be any such , which cannot be put in execution without a real disturbance of public tranquility . The King of Spain likewise , though believed to be more complyant with the Court of Rome , being sollicited by the Pope to publish and admit the same Council in his Belgick Provinces , though he willingly yielded thereto , yet he did it not without this additional Clause adjoyned , Touching the Regalities , Rights , Prerogatives and Preeminences of his Majesty , his Vassals , Estates and Subjects ; the Laycal Iurisdiction hitherto used , the Right of Lay-Patronage the Right of Nomination , Hearing of causes in the possessory matter of Benefices , Tithes possessed or pretended to by Seculars , &c. in regard of all such things his Majesties Intention is , that proceedings shall go on as hitherto they have done , without changing any thing at all , &c. So necessarily scrupulous are Christian Princes to prevent the least diminution of their Temporal Rights and Priviledges . More lately likewise when certain Authors of one Order published several Treatises , in which they endeavoured to exalt to the height the Popes Iurisdiction Universal in Temporal affairs , those Books were censured and condemned by many Catholic Universities , and committed to the fire by Public Authority , the Pope not being ignorant hereof . And moreover ( which perhaps is yet more considerable ) the Superior General of the said Religious Order , even in Rome it self , published an Edict ( known to all Christendom ) by which he strictly forbad his Subjects , under most heavy Censures , to maintain such a Temporal Iurisdiction of the Pope , either in Books , Sermons or Disputations . Now that which makes this so solemn a Prohibition of more weight is this , that whereas the foresaid Authors earnestly contended to prove that all Christians were obliged to believe the Popes Right to such Authority , as an Article of our Christian Faith , the said General ▪ by publishing his Prohibitory Edict , clearly shewed that he renounced the Belief of such a Doctrine : For otherwise , Who but a● Antichrist would so severely under a penalty of Excommunication forbid the teaching or defending an Article of Faith ? And moreover in a General Chapter not long after assembled , the said Prohibition was ratified by all Superiors of the same Order , as their own Writers testifie . Prot. I must needs confess that Christian Princes , and Subjects too ▪ are much beholding to that Worthy General for his prudence and zeal to prevent occasions of tumults and Seditions . Notwithstanding it seems to me that Princes are not yet secure : for though the said Doctrine should cease to be esteemed an Article of Faith , why may it not be defended as an Opinion , at least Speculatively probable ? and if so , a slender Probability will have force but too great to raise and foment Rebellions , when discontents are multiplied among the people . §. 66. Cath. You are much deceived , Sir. For besides that you may be sure that Princes will never permit their Authority to be rendred questionable , the very pretending such a Doctrine to be only Probable , is equivalently to grant that it is no Authority at all : Since every one knows , that a meer probable Title against a long established possession ( such as is that of Princes for their Temporal Soveraignty ) is in Law and Reason accounted no Title : and consequently none who have any sence of Christianity will ever seek , with the horrible Scandal of Religion to instill such a manifestly unjust incentive to Rebellion into the minds of Christians . And now , Sir , I beseech you to consider things seriously , and then judg with what injustice and cruelty our whole Religion and Church is condemned , as teaching Treason and Rebellion , and this only for a few private mens Writings , so generally abhorred by our selves . Prot. All I can say hereto is , that for as much as concerns my self , I will be no longer an accuser of your Church in this matter . Proceed therefore if you please , to the other following Points . 4. Of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation . §. 67. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine , opposed by all Sectaries , regards the Holy Eucharist . Their rage against the former is indeed greater , because interest is more concerned in it : but a greater advantage for seducing the ignorant people they make of this , because they permit them to judg of this most dreadful Mystery by their outward Senses , which , Catholics , instructed by Holy Fathers , tell them are not to be believed here . In the Eucharist the first matter of Dispute , and ground of the rest , is the Catholic Doctrine touching the Real Presence of our Lords Body on the Altar after Consecration of the Symbole , thus declared in the Council of Trent , I prosess that in the most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is present truly and substantially the Body and the Blood , together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Iesus Christ : And that there is made a Conversion of the whole Substance of the Bread into his Body , and of the whole substance of the Wine into his Blood : Which Conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation . This Article of our Belief is to us solidly established on the Words of Institution . THIS IS MY BODY : which Words without any figurative explication are repeated alike by three Evangelists and the Apostle Saint Paul : therefore we believe , following universal Tradition , that our Lord sincerely meant as he spake ; and because we believe so , we are hated . Prot. But how can you expect that we should assent hereto , since our Senses contradict it ? §. 68. Cath. You cannot say however that our Senses are deceived : for in this great Mystery they have a right perception of their proper Objects , to wit , Colour , Extention , Figure , &c. Neither I suppose , will you say that the judgment which Reason from the Senses collects , is always infallible . For if so , then ( for example ) our Saviour whilst living on earth should have been judged a meer Man : And the Angels , appearing to Lot and his daughters , no Angels but meer men : for so would Reason , relying on the outward Senses , have judged . Prot. in these examples Divine Revelation expresly teaches the contrary . Cath. Then if in the present case you were assured by Divine Revelation that God by a supernatural Power did on the Priests consecrating the Symbols produce a real Change of the Outward Elements into the Body and Blood of Christ , you would believe God against your Senses . Prot. I should no doubt . §. 69. Cath. Can you have a greater assurance hereof , then the express Words of Christ literally understood by the Constant Tradition of all Churches in all ages ? Prot. Such an assurance truly would to me be sufficient . Cath. Then , since we are not met here to mannage a formal Dispute , give me leave to desire you seriously to peruse what has passed very lately in Writings on this Argument between Monsieur Arnauld a Doctor of Sorbon , and the most subtle of the Huguenot Ministers called Monsieur Claude . There , besides Testimonies of Antiquity , you will find our Catholic Doctrine acknowledged by the Prime Bishops of Greece , Muscovy , Armenia , and many other Oriental Sects , who by their Attestations , subscribed with their Names before Witnesses , have professed that the Doctrine touching the Real Presence and Change of the Visible Elements into the very Body and Blood of Christ , is the constant Doctrine of all their respective Congregations , and that it has been so delivered to them by their Ancestors from the beginning . Prot. Truly Sir , if this appear to me , I shall not trouble my self with Doubts or Objections from School Philosophy ; nor examine the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] How such a change is made : which Examination hath been long since condemned by St. Cyrill of Alexandria , but humbly submit my judgment and assent to what God has revealed , as I do also in the Mysteries of the Blessed Trinity , the Incarnation , &c. For indeed I find that the Doctrine touching the Holy Eucharist has from the beginning been delivered as a Mystery also incomprehensible by natural Reason . §. 70. Cath. You may add hereto , that even the Calvinists themselves , though the most perverse Enemies to this Mystery , yet afford a considerable Proof of it against themselves . For seeing clearly the Tradition touching the Real Presence so fully attested in the Writings of the Holy Fathers and in Ancient Councils , they , even when they endeavour with most eagerness to oppose it , oppose it in language counterfeiting that of Antiquity ; so ashamed are they to renounce both the sense and expressions too , of the Primitive Church . This may be observed not only in the Polemical Writings of Mestrezat , Anbertin and others of their Champions , but even in their Catechism and simple Confession of their Faith. For , there we read ; That our Saviour nourishes and quickens us with the substance of his Body and Blood , That he is given us in the Sacrament according to his proper Substance ; And that , though he be truly communicated to us both by Baptism and the Gospel ; Yet that is only in part , and not entirely ( so that it seems , in the Eucharist they receive him whole and entirely . ) Moreover , that the Body of the Lord Iesus , in as much as it hath been once offered in Sacrifice to reconcile us to God , it is now ( in the Eucharist ) given us to rectify us that we have part in that reconciliation . § , 71. And as for English Protestants the time was within mans memory , when not only the Prelates of this Church ( without Huguenotical hypocrisy ) delivered their Belief of this Mystery in expressions very Catholic ; but his Majesties learned and wise Grand-Father giving the world an account of the Faith of that Church of which he was the Head , delivers it thus , We acknowledg a Presence ( of Christ in the Sacrament no less true , then you ( Roman Catholics : ) but we dare not determine the manner of it . Neither truly dare we Catholics . Thus learned Protestants wrote and spoke before this last , worse then Zuinglian Reformation and new Rubrick : since which time the English Church has permitted all fanatical sectaries to make her a brocher of all their frenzies , and a justifier of Doctrines which devour her very vitals . Prot. Enough of this , Sir , Be pleased now to proceed to the next Point . 5. Of Adoration of Christ in the Holy Eucharist . §. 72. Cath. The next controverted Doctrine , regards the Adoration of Christ in the Holy Sacrament . Concerning which the sum of the Churches Faith is comprized in this her Decision ; Whosoever shall say , that Christ the only begotten Son of God ought not to be adored in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist with the Supream Worship ( Latria ) even external — And that his Adorers are Idolaters , let him be Anathema . Now the Doctrine touching the Real Presence , being once established , will sufficiently justify this : for certainly it is not only lawful , but our Duty to adore Christ whereever he is truly present . And consequently this Practice of Adoring our Lord in his Sacrament is by the same Universal Tradition delivered , and ordained in all Publick Liturgies , both of the Grecian and other Oriental Churches . §. 73. But the great , and too willing mistake of our Adversaries is , that they impute to us the Adoration of the Visible Elements : Whereas the proper Object of our Worship is not any Visible thing , Nay , we do not terminate our Worship percisely in the Body of Christ which we beleive invisibly present : The proper Object of our worship is the Person of Christ God and Man veiled under the Visible Elements . So that in case it should happen through some incapacity in the Minister , or defect in the manner or matter , that the Elements should not be effectually consecrated , and yet we , ( beleiving Christs Body to be Sacramentally present , ) should so worship him , in this indeed would be a circumstantial mistake , but here would be no Idolatry , nor indeed any fault in us , the Errour being supposed undiscoverable by us . The reason is , because the Belief of the Presence of Christs Body is truly grounded on Divine Revelation ; and not a fond fancy such as was that of the Manicheans worshiping Christ as peculiarly present in the Sun , or of the Isrealites conceiving God to be peculiarly present in the Calves at Bethel . And to this you may see Daille yeilding his consent , in his Apology for the Reformed Churches , the eleventh Chapter . It is observable with what strange and unreasonable partiality the Calvinists treat Catholics in this Point : They give their judgment that there is no dangerous Venome in the Doctrine of the Lutherans touching this matter , and therefore have Synodically granted them admission to their Cene which the Lutherans scorn . Now the Lutherans profess the Real Presence of Christs Body together with the Bread : and some of them acknowledg Adoration due to him there . So that to a Calvinists conscience the same , or a worse Doctrine held by a Sectary looses all its poyson : it is only dangerous to believe what the Church teaches . Yea those very Calvinists acknowledg also , that if Christ be in such a special manner really present , Adoration would be due to him . Some Lutherans deny this . But whether they affirm or deny any thing , upon condition they will stay out of Gods Church , they shall be welcome Brethren to Calvinists . Prot , Truly such a dis-ingenuous want of Honesty and such interessed Compliance is very justly to be condemned . You may now proceed . 6. Of the Sacrifice and Oblation of Christs Body on the Altar . §. 74. Cath. The next Point , with regard to the Holy Eucharist , quarrelled at by Protestants , is our Doctrine touching the Sacrifice of Christs Body on the Altar concerning which the summ of the Churches Decision is as followeth : I profess that in the Mass is offered to God a true , proper and propitiatory Sacrifice for the Living and the dead . By which Sacrifice that bloody Sacrifice performed once on the Cross is represented , and the memory of it remains till the end of the world : the saving vertue thereof is also applyed for the remission of those sins which are dayly commited by us . All Catholics receive this Decision , as it lyes : As for School-men , they according to their custom , raise a world of unnecessary Disputes which are no where so multiplyed as on this incomprehensible Mystery of the Holy Eucharist . But as many of their Questions seem no way necessary , so no Catholics are obliged to their Decisions . §. 75. Protestants set themselves against this Sacrifice , upon a meer mistake of the Term , which they will needs affirm to imply an Immolation : and thereupon argue , that the Roman Church manifestly contradicts the Authour of the Epistle to the Hebrews who affirms that Christ hath now once in the end of the world appeared to put away sin by the Sacrifice of himself . And that he was once offered to bear the sins of many : and thence concludes the absolute Perfection of that one Sacrifice of Christ once offered , which did not need be repeated , as the Legal Sacrifices did . But this pretended Contradiction will quickly vanish , if we consider that though the Sacrifices made by Christ did accomplish all sorts of Sacrifices and Oblations in the Law , yet the forementioned Divine Authour in a special manner compares it to that great Anniversary Sacrifice of general Propitiation , in which after the killing of the beast , the High Priest alone , and only once every year , carryed the Blood into the Holy of Holies , and there sprinkled it before God. In like manner did our Saviour after his bloody Sacrifice on the Cross , ascending into Heaven by his own blood entered into the most Holy place , having obtained eternal redemption for us . Now these two Acts of Priesthood are by his commission in a sort , repeated by his Servants whom he hath ordained Priests in his Church , and who according to Saint Augustine's expression are [ propriissime Sacerdotes ] in a most proper Sence Sacrificing Priests . For answerably to the Acts of Immolation , their Sacrifice on the Altar is only Representative and Commemorative , and expressed by Seperating the Body from the Blood , Yet so , that it is not barely a Sign of Christs death , for that alone would not be sufficient to entitle it a Sacrifice ; but it also contains the Victim whose death is represented . And again with regard to Christs offering and presenting to his Father his crucified Body in the most Holy place , or Highest Heaven , his Priests truly and properly present and Offer to Almighty God the same Body and Blood really present on the Holy Altar , as a Propitiation for the Living and the Dead . Which Propitiation is not at all injurious to that Propitiation and Eternal Redemption purchased for us by our Saviour , since it receives all its virtue from his bloody Sacrifice , being instituted for an Application of the said Redemption . For thus also in an inferiour degree the same Propitiation is applyed to us by other Sacraments , as Baptism , Pennance , and Absolution , and Extream Unction , yea also by the Word preached , &c. And thus much even the French Calvinists do acknowledge in their Cene , as hath been shewed . Now I desire you to judge what prejudice can come by the various applications of Christs Merits . Prot. There seems to me now no such great difficulty in admitting a Relative Sacrifice , and a proper Oblation . Therefore you need not enlarge this Point any further . 7. Of Communion under One Species . §. 76. Cath. The last Subject of Protestants quarrels against the Church , with relation to the Holy Eucharist , is her Ordaining to the Laity , Communion under one Species only . Now it is acknowledged that , as our Saviour instituted this Sacrament in both Species , so for many ages together , it was , in public Communions , received accordingly : I say , in Public Communions : for in other private occasions , as in Sickness , at Sea , and generally among the devout Inhabitants of Desarts , it was otherwise : yet these , receiving in One Species only , did not esteem themselves deprived of any vertue pertaining to the integrity of the Sacrament : And the reason is , because they generally believed ( as the Church has now declared ) that it is most true , that as much is contained in each Species , as under both : for whole and entire Christ does exist under the Species of Bread , and under every particle of that Species : in like manner whole Christ does exist under the Species of Wine , and under its parts ( when separated ) Upon this ground the Church without intending the least prejudice to her Children , has thought fit , for avoiding many inconveniences and irreverencies which did frequently occur by the negligence and confusion of such vast multitudes of Communicants receiving the Blood also , that all , excepting the Priest who celebrated , should content themselves in Public Communions , as from the beginning Christians did in Private , with our Lords Body only under the Species of Bread , which is not obnoxious to the like inconveniencies , considering that hereby they should not be loosers of any part of the Blessing . §. 77. This regards the Holy Eucharist considered as a Sacrament . But as it is a Sacrifice , both the Species are necessary to the constitution of it , it being ordained to represent the Death of Christ by shedding his Blood : Which representation is made by Consecreating and offering both the Body and Blood separatly . Matters standing thus , it concerns you much to consider whether this be a just cause of your Speration from the Catholic Church in which you might have been partaker truly and really of the precious Body of Christ : whereas in Congregations divided from her , you , instead of the Body and Blood of our Saviour , must content your self with a morsel of meer bread and a sup of wine . Prot. I will , by Gods assistance , think seriously on this . In the mean time you may proceed to the following Points . 8. Of Sacramental Confession , Pennance and Satisfaction . §. 78. Cath. The next Catholic Doctrine severely censured by you , as an invention of the Clergys ambition , is the Obligation imposed by the Catholic Church on her subjects to Confess their Mortal sins , and to submit to satisfactions for them ; according to this Canon , Whosoever shall deny Sacramental Confession to have been instituted by Divine Law , or to be necesary to Salvation : or shall affirm that the manner of Confession secretly to the Priest alone ( which the Catholic Church from the beginning hath allways and still doth observe ) is disagreeing from the institution and command of Christ , and that it is a humane invention ; Let him be Anathema . This Duty of Confession of sins seems by this Canon referred to that Commission and Privilege given by our Saviour to his Apostles and their Successours , Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted ; and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained , As likewise to the Precept to Saint Iames , Confess your sins one to another : Which Texts have been alwayes interpreted by the Holy Fathers in the same sense . The universal Practice likewise of the Iewish Synagogue conformable hereto adds a considerable weight to induce us to a perswasion that it is by Divine Institution . For how can it be imagined that by any humane invention a Duty so burthensom to flesh and blood , and to our Natural Pride , could have been introduced generally into the Church , without sparing the awfull Majesty of Kings and Modesty of Queens , by an unarmed Ecclesiastical Power , the Pope himself also owing such Submission to a simple Priest. §. 79. The ground of the necessity of this Sacrament is , because those who by Baptism having submitted themselves to the Churches Authority , afterwards do violate the Laws of the Gospel , ought to undergo the judgment of the same Church in the Tribunal of Penance , where she exercises the Power given her of remitting and retaining sins . Now such judgment is esteemed as given by Iesus Christ himself , by whom and in whose place his Priests are appointed Iudges . It is this invisible High Priest who after Confession , Sorrow and Satisfaction interiourly absolves the Penitent , whilst the Priest , exercises the exteriour Ministery , as a Subordinate Iudge , without whose concurrence Sins shall not be remitted . §. 80. As for Satisfactions imposed after Confessions , they , according to the Churches expression , regard only Temporal Pains due to our Sins ; She does not teach that we can satisfie God for the guilt even of Venial Sins ; or for Eternal Pains . Moreover she declares , that these Satisfactions are accepted of God through the Merits of Christ : and that they do no way obscure the benefit of Christs death , For Christ by his death has so satisfied for our sins , that it is Gods pleasure his satisfaction should not produce its full effects , till it be by us particularly applyed in the use of his Sacraments and works worthy of Penance : to which Works his Merits being linked , and not otherwise , our Satisfactions will be accepted by him , through his pure Grace and Mercy . The Lutherans , who seem so only to rely on Christs Passion for the remission of their Sins , doubt not yet to profess that a previous Faith is necessary thereto , for such as are come to the age of discretion , and Baptism for Infants . The difference then between us is , that they pretend to be justified by a Dead Faith , and we by a Living . Now therefore advise with your self whether you would forsake Gods Church rather then submit your self to a Duty , without which that eminent Priviledge given by our Lord to his Ministers for the general good of his people , of remitting Sins , becomes vain and of no effect . Prot. I will seriously think on this : and now expect what you will say concerning the other Articles . 9. Of Indulgences . §. 81. Cath. I will , if you think good , in the next place treat of the Point touching Indulgences , by reason of its affinity to the former . Prot. I leave the Method to your own choice . Cath. Concerning Indulgences then the Church hath thus delivered her sense : Since the Power of giving Indulgences hath been bestowed on the Church by Iesus Christ , and that She hath made use of this Power , divinely left her , from antient times : the Holy Synod teaches and commends the use of Indulgences , as very beneficial to all Christian people , and approved by the Authority of other Holy Synods ; and that they ought to be retained in the Church ▪ And denounceth Anathema against those who assert that they are unprofitable ; or deny that there is a Power of giving them in the Church . Notwithstanding the Synod admonishes that the granting of them be done with great moderation , according to the ancient and approved Custome of the Church ; for fear least by two great a remisness Ecclesiastical Discipline be weakned . Thus we are taught by the Church . And certain it is that there is not any Point of Catholic Faith which , taken simply according to the Churches own expression , is more evident , as to the Truth of it , and less offensive , as to the use , then is this touching Indulgences . Yet after all , there is not any one Point so embroyled by Controvertists disputing for and against Inferences and Interpretations made by several Schoolmen , which have occasioned most horrible Scandals by abuses committed in Practise : This having been the first occasion of Luthers revolting and Schism . §. 82. Now forasmuch as regards the proper , necessary sence of this Canon , those very Schoolmen who advance the virtue of Indulgences much beyond what will be allowed by many very learned Catholics , yet do acknowledge that the Church by her Decision obliges us to believe as of Faith only this , viz. That only such a Power of conferring Indulgences has been left by our Lord to his Church as from ancient times has been practised and approved by former Synods , intending those that are usually cited to that purpose , as the first of Nicea , Can. 11. of Neocaesare Can. 3. of Laodicea , Can. 1. and 2. the Fourth of Carthage , Cap. 75. and of Agdes , Can. 6. in all which Synods we only find this , that it was always lawful and usual for Bishops to remit to their Penitents some part of those Canonical Penances which were inflicted for certain crimes , in case the life and laudable conversation of the Penitent did seem to deserve so great a favour ; or if by such indulgence they thought requisite to encourage weaker Christians in times of Persecution to suffer for the Faith. Hence appears that whatsoever beyond this we read in the Catholic Writers , as thouching the remission of any pane due to Sin in the judgment of God , or after death in Purgatory , or touching certain clauses in the Bulls of some Popes ; or touching the Churches Treasure consisting of the Merit of Christ alone , as some , or of the Merits of Saints joyned to those of Christ , as others conceive , &c. not any of these are necessary Points of Catholic Faith. Thus in effect the Catholic Church requires no more to be assented to , but what is taught and practised by every Congregation of Christians upon Earth . All Sects , even Fanatics and Quakers , denounce Censures against Delinquents . Must all those Censures alwayes have their full effect ? Is no mercy to be extended to humble , contrite Penitents ? Shall no difference be made between Sinners converted , and those that are remorsless ? This is contrary to humane Nature and the practise of all mankind . Therefore surely you would not forsake the Catholic Church for allowing that which all Christians esteem necessary . §. 83. Prot. If this were all that the Roman Church teaches concerning Indulgences , they are much to blame who condemn her . But the general Practise therein contradicts you . Do we not see the virtue of Indulgences extended to the other world ? Do we not see in the tenor of promulgated Plenary Indulgences all Sinners promised Remission , and Heaven too for a few Prayers recited , for visiting a certain number of Churches , or disbursing a small sum ▪ of Money ? Quid ergo verba audio , cum fact a videam ? Cath. All that you alledg being confessed , what prejudice can that bring to you or me ? I told you that several School-men in their Speculations do attribute more to Indulgences then the Church gives them warrant for ? and this they themselves acknowledg . So it fares in all Religions , that Opinions do in number far exceed Articles of Faith. No wonder therefore if Popes do enlarge their Graces according to the measure of Opinions , not condemned . And who justly blame them , since they themselves reap no profit by all the Alms given ? Indeed in the former Ages great Scandal was given by the avarice of such as published Indulgences , and collected the charitable Alms of devout people . Of which Scanda● ●●e Church taking notice , utterly abolished that Office , and commanded Bishops in such occasions to assume from among the Canons of their respective Churches to be Collectors of Alms , withal strictly forbidding them to accept any reward at all for their labour . §. 84. Matters standing thus , what harm flows to any by Indulgences so published ? Though perhaps not one in a hundred gains the full vertue of such Indulgences , yet something they do certainly gain ; some reward they will reap from performing the good actions enjoyned , which probably would otherwise never have been done by many . However , they loose nothing at all . They are taught , not to expect remission of unrepented sins , or to gain Heaven by an Indulgence : for none are capable of the fruit thereof , but such as have with Contrition confessed their sins ▪ and received absolution , and consequently are in the state of Grace , but yet remain obnoxious to temporal punishments , from which an Indulgence , duely made use of , doth free them . §. 85. One incommodity indeed may justly be apprehended by a too profuse and frequent concession of Indulgences , which is the enervating of Ecclesiastical Discipline : to prevent which the Church ( as I said in the entrance into this Point ) expresly and earnestly admonishes that the granting of them may be done with great moderation according to the antient and approved Custom of the Church . Now If all this care will not yet satisfy you , however surely you will have no excuse for leaving the Church upon this account , because though there be never so many mistakes or abuses in the ordinary teach of Private Doctors , and common practice about Indulgences , you will not need to concern your self in any of them ; since if you think fit , you may keep your money in your purse , perform your Devotions in your private Closet , endeavour to fulfil all Canonical Penances which have been , or , by the utmost rigor of Ecclesiastical Discipline , ought to have been imposed on you for all your sins , and so freely abstain all your life time from making use of an Indulgence , Prot. Enough hath been said on this subject : proceed , if you think fit , to the next . 10. Of Iustification , and Merit of Good Works . §. 86. Cath. After the discoursing of Confession , Penance , and Indulgence it will be seasonable and proper to treat of the Fruit arising from , or by occasion of them , which is the Merit of Good Works and Iustification . There is scarce any Point of Catholic Doctrine from which Protestants have sought greater advantage to multiply foolish Books and senceless Sermons , then this touching Iustification : and oft it falls out that their zealous Invectives against the Church are then most loudand bitter , when explaining themselves , they presently agree with the Churches sense . Of this , as soon as I have sincerely acquainted you with our Catholic Doctrine , I am content you should be the Judg. §. 87. First then , it is acknowledged that the Church teaches , That men are justified ( indeed ) by the imputation of Christs Iustice , and by Remission of their sins ; but not by these only , so as to exclude Grace and Charity shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost : that is in effect , That God does not justify nor remit sins to persons while they persist in their sins and in a hatred of him . Again the Church , making use of the ordinary expression of the Holy Fathers , teaches , That a person justified truly merits eternal Life by his good Works . Now this word Merit ( the word , I say , but not the true sense of it when they will permit us to explain it ) is very offensive to Protestants . But you having obliged your self to avoid partiality , will judg of the Churches sense by what she further adds for explication of this Point ; and for clearing her self from the imputation of encouraging men to glorify themselves , and to trust in their own abilities for purchasing remission of sins and salvation . §. 97. Thus then she further teaches , it is necessary to believe that sins neither are , nor ever have been remitted , but by Divine Mercy freely extended to us , for ( the merits of ) Iesus Christ. Again , We are said to be justified freely because not any of those things which precede our Iustification , whether Faith or Works , can merit that Grace . In the third place , Eternal life ought to be proposed to the Children of God , both as a free Grace mercifully promised to them through Iesus Christ ; and also as as a Recompence which is faithfully rendred to their Good Works and Merits , by vertue of that Promise . Fourthly although in Holy Scriptures so much is attributed to Good Works , that Iesus Christ himself promises that a Cup of cold water given to the poor shall not fail of a Reward , and that the Apostle testifies that our light and momentary tribulation worketh fur us a far more exceeding , eternal weight of glory ; Yet God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself , and not in the Lord , whose Goodness towards all men is so great that he is pleased , that the Free Gifts bestowed by him on them should be their Merits . I will add only one passage more , out of a great heap , to the like effect . We , who of our selves , as of our selves , can do nothing , by our Lords cooperation , who gives us strength , can do all things : Thus man hath nothing in himself for which he can glory , but all our glorying is in Christ , in whom we live , in whom we merit , in whom we satisfy , bringing forth fruits , worthy of Repentance , which fruits take their vertue from him , are offered to the Father by him , and accepted of the Father for him . Thus are we instructed by the Church in the Council of Trent and moreover in the Canon of the Holy Mass we are taught thus to pray . Mercifully vouchsafe , O God , to admit us into the Society of thy Apostles and Martyrs , not weighing our Merits , but pardoning our offences through Iesus Christ. §. 89. Can you now say , Sir , that the Roman Church teacheth her Children to glorifie themselves , and to rely upon their own Merits , or indeed to esteem their Merits to be their own ? she must cancel the whole Scripture if she would affirm that without a good life and Holiness we may see God : Or if she would affirm that God has not obliged himself by a world of Promises to reward our Good Works with Happiness infinitely exceeding the value of them . But withal to preserve in our hearts that most essential virtue of our Christian Professor , Humility , She further instructs us , that our Works as Merits , are the pure free Gifts of God and effects of his meer Grace , which alone affords them all their value : That they are accepted and rewarded by God , only for the Merits of Iesus Christ. Yea further , that our Natural Corruption still remaining , and mingling it self in our best actions , we can have no assurance that they are indeed such as God has promised to reward : And however , that though we now stand , yet we have no assurance that we shall not fall . In a word the whole Substance of her Doctrine touching the present Subject directs us to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling : and when we have done all we can , to acknowledg our selves unprofitable Servants , having only done our duty ( if we have indeed done that ) and consequently if God do reward us , it is to be ascribed to his own free Goodness and Grace , in which alone we place our trust , and not at all in our own imperfect Merits . §. 90. And now , Sir , judg whether the Roman Church teaching these Doctrines can with any shew be accused or suspected to have a design to nourish Spiritual Pride in her Children ; and whether the first contrivers of Schism had reason to publish to the world , as the principal ground of their rupture , this Article of Iustification and Good Works ; and in opposition to her , to make the people believe that the Faith by which they are to be justified must be a strong resolute Fancy , of their Election , and an assurance of their Salvation ; that a holy life has no influence therein ; yea that Good Works do rather harm then good ; and lastly , that this monstrous kind of new invented Faith once had , can never be lost again , nor their right to heaven prejudiced by never so many , or never so heynous crimes . Among them there is no working our Salvation with fear and trembling . Assurance of Salvation in them annihilates the great Christian vertue of Hope . This in the midst of a world of Sins they will be assured of Salvation , to which Assurance Catholics dare not pretend in the midst of all their Mortifications , Humiliations , and assiduous Devotions . Since therefore , Sir. you are so afraid of Pride , as indeed we have all reason to be , be you the Iudg which of these Parties affords you best means to avoid it , and so , best deserves your choice . Prot. A short consideration will serve the turn for that purpose , Be pleased to proceed . 11. Of Invocation of Saints . §. 91. The next Point censured by you is the Churches Doctrine touching Invocation of Saints : thus expressed in the Council of Trent , It is good and profitable to call upon the Saints , and to have recourse to their prayers , aid and assistance , whereby to obtain from God many benefits by the Merits of his Son Iesus Christ , who is our Redeemer and Saviour . In this Point I shall briefly offer to you these considerations ; 1. That it is a general Tradition of Gods Church from the begining , and not contradicted by sober Protestants , that glorified Saints do incessantly Pray for the Militant Church on earth . 2. It is unquestionable that we may desire to receive benefit in particular by such their Prayers . 3. That it contradicts all reason and modesty in our Adversaries to charge the addressing our Petitions to them for that purpose with the horrible crime of Idolatry , since we do no otherwise beg the Intercession of Saints , then we do that of our sinful Brethren alive , acknowledging God alone to be the Author and fountain of all good . §. 92. Hence it follows that the worst title that malice it self can with any shew of reason affix to this our Practice is , that it may be esteemed superfluous , in case it can be demonstrated , that Saints at such a distance cannot hear nor know our Requests in particular . Yet neither would this enervate the Churches Doctrine or Practice ; which by eminent Divines is proved to be laudable and profitable , though they did not always hear us : neither indeed has the Church any where determined her Belief , that they do so . But lastly , if it be the Church her self , and not some private Catholic Writers , that you would question about this Subject ; observe , that in her public Liturgy and Mass , celebrated on all the Feasts of Saints , she continually addresses her Petitions directly to God alone , desiring him to grant us such special Blessings by the Intercession of such and such Saints . Now it cannot be doubted but that Charity and mutual assistance among fellow members of the same Body is very acceptable to God whensoever and wheresoever performed . We are taught to beleive a Communion of Saints : we doubt not of their Charity to us : our Communion therefore with them must be to testify our joy for their Happiness , and our assurance that their Intercessions for us are more prevalent with God , then the Prayers of our living imperfect Brethren : Therefore since we may and ought , on occasions to beg these , and to desire God to hear them for our good , much rather surely ought we to do the same with regard to the glorified Saints . I leave it therefore to your conscience whether you can judg that a separation from Gods Church on this quarrel can be justified . Prot. At least I shall never hereafter impute Idolatry to her for this Practice . 12. Of Veneration of Images and Relics of Saints . §. 93. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine , and which has an affinity with the last , regards the Veneration due to Holy Images and Relics , which is equally censured by Protestants . It is thus expressed in the Confession of Faith set down by Pope Pius the fourth . I do most firmly assert that the Images of Christ , of the Virgin-Mother of God , as likewise of other Saints are to be had and retained , and due honour and Veneration to be given to them , and also to their Relics . §. 94. Now to justify the use which Catholics make of Images , the Veneration due to them , and that such Veneration is most unjustly and calumniously by some Protestants interpreted to be Idolatry will be no hard task to perform . For common reason and the experience of all mankind instruct us , that men do naturally desire and delight to think or talk oft on such things past , or persons absent from whom they have received some Signal benefit , and much more if they expect an addition of like benefits . But besides this , if the very thinking or speaking of them with affection be it self a Duty advantagious to us , and conducing to our happiness , we will thank any person , and we will think it reasonable to furnish our selves with such expedients as are proper to put us oft in mind of them : which we therefore regard in a far other manner , then we do such things as represent to us only indifferent Objects . Is not this , Sir , suitable to Reason ? Prot. Truly it seems so to me . Cath. Then I desire you to examine your self , and tell me , if whilst your thoughts are employed on vain , or perhaps sinful objects , one should on a sudden hold before your eyes a Crucifix containing the History of our Saviors Passion , would not the fight thereof recal your mind to the contemplation of an Object more noble , more heavenly , to mediate on which would be very beneficial to you . Prot. No doubt it would . Cath. Again , may not one glance of your eye thereon so refresh your Memory as in a moment to make you call to mind as much of the Story , as perhaps the reading of a long Chapter in the Gospel would do ? Prot. That may be granted . §. 94. Cath. May it not likewise have the same effect , and be yet more helpful to ignorant persons who cannot read , and have weak Memories ? Prot. It may doubtless . §. 95. Cath. And are not such representations , beside refreshing the memory , proper also to raise in your mind holy affections of love and gratitude to our Saviour ? Prot. It is confessed : But what is all this to worshiping or adoring a Crucifix or other Image ? Cath. Sir , I desire you , since these terms of Adoring and Worshiping in our common English are usually made to import the Supreme Honour due to God alone , that you would , not ( in imitation of your libelling Controvertists , whose only aym is , by any arts to render our Religion odious to unwary Readers ) make use of them in this argument : But take the Churches own expression , and call the respect we bear to Sacred Images and Relics , Honour , Reverence or Veneration . Prot. I am Content . §. 97. Cath. Then , Sir , give me leave to ask you , Whether it is not another kind of special regard which we have to Sacred and Heavenly Objects , from that we bear to profane ? as for example , Can you think fit to do all the same things in a Church , which you would have no Scruple to do in your house , or in an unclean place ? Prot. No doubt , a difference is to be made . Cath. And would you not judg that person injurious to our Saviour , or to his Blessed Mother , who should deface , spit upon , or defile the Pictures of either of them ? And on the other side , whether seeing another reverently kissing , either of them , you would not collect thereby that he bore respect to the glorious Persons represented ? Prot. Let all this be granted . Cath. And would you call such a reverent behavior of the latter person , Idolatry ; especially when he ( with the Church ) professes that he acknowledges no kind of virtue or Divinity in them for which they should be honoured , or that any thing is to be beg'd of them , or any trust to be put in them : which acknowledgment the Church her self requires from him ? Prot. I confess , I see there no Marks of Idolatry : but on the contrary , an express renouncing of it . §. 98. Cath , Well , Sir ; since then Sacred things are otherwise to be regarded , then common and profane ; and again , since our Saviour and his Saints may receive testimonies of our Love and Duty , as likewise of Hatred and Scorn , by our very outward behaviour shewed to their Representations ; Moreover Since it is that by Representations we are put in mind of Persons and things highly conducing to our happiness , and which we cannot without our great prejudice neglect or forget ; and lastly , Since by them the ignorant also may very commodiously be instructed , and likewise good affections may by them be raised in all our minds ; Would you rather forsake the Communion of the Church , then , with her , acknowledg , that due honour and Veneration is to be exhibited to them ? Prot. I have no Scruple to allow thus much . Cath. Then surely you will have less scruple to allow the same Veneration to the very Bodies , Members , or other Relicks of Saints . Prot. Be it acknowledged : and proceed . 13. Of Prayer for the Dead , and Purgatory . §. 99. Cath. In the next place we will consider what you object against the Churches Doctrine touching Prayer for the Dead , which implyes a State in them alterable to the better by our Prayers , Alms , &c. for them : Which State is by the Church , called Purgatory . Now it seems to me a wonderful thing that you should quarrel with Gods Church , so as to think Communion with her unlawful , because she is charitable and compassionate to her fellow-members , as she believes , standing in great need of her assistance . §. 100. Prot. That which we principally reprehend in this Practice is , that your Church , without any Warrant from Gods Word , will impose this burthen on us . Cath. If you had not dismembred that Book of Scripture which the Church once put into your hands , you would have found this Duty of Prayer and offering Sacrifice for the faithful departed expresly commended and practised , even by the Iewish Synagogue long before our Saviour came into this world . So that your Argument is like that of your Patriarck Luther , who could not find in Scripture Justification by Works after he had torn the Epistle of St. Iames out of his Book . §. 101. Notwithstanding even in your Scripture you find that , no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God. Neither have you any the least ground to believe that Christians full of many unrepented imperfections are perfectly cleansed by Dying : Therefore unless after Death there be a place where they may be purified , you most cruelly thrust them , without hope of redemption , into Hell. And this you do in contradiction to the greatest Cloud of Witnesses that , I think , ever gave testimony to any Divine Uerity . For besides a world of passages sprinkled in the works of the Holy Fathers among whom some have written Books on purpose to enforce this Charitable Duty towards the Dead , there never was any Church since Christ besides yours , which in their Publick Liturgies did not employ their Devotions and Sacrifices for the comfort and assistance of their Dead Brethern : Yea even your English Liturgy is accused by Presbiterians and Fanatics of the same criminal Charity . §. 102. And as for the place it self , in which we believe them to be detained , stiled by the Church , Purgatory ; what a deal of unnecessary trouble do your Controvertists give themselves in disputing against the fire of Purgatory , and touching the Nature , intention and duration of the pains suffered there : none of which are defined or mentioned in the Churches Decision ? §. 103. Your partiality is likewise very unreasonable in this matter . For Calvin is by you generally esteemed a Patriark of great Authority among all your Sects ; who notwithstanding assigns to the Souls of the Faithful after death a certain place out of Heaven : in which they expect ( saith he ) the fruition of Glory promised them , so that all things remain in suspence until the coming of our Saviour to Iudgment . Now this so tedious suspension and anxious expectation of an Object vehemently desired , must needs be more grievous then a short suffering in Purgatory , where probably such a delayed expectation makes the principal torment , and where perhaps the sufferings of many , less imperfect Souls , may be less tormenting than some pains suffered in this life . Yet because Calvin will not call this his fancied place , Purgatory , he is Orthodox , and the Church only erroneous . He is Orthodox , teaching in a manner , the very same Doctrine taught by the Church , and yet men can have the conscience to forsake the Church that they may learn her Doctrine abroad in a Shismatioal Congregation . Prot. Such partiality truly I cannot approve . Cath. These are the Catholic Doctrines mentioned by you as evidently contradicting Scripture , and invented to promote Ambition and Avarice in the Catholic Clergy . And besides these , other Points of Controversie there are , which though not charged with such an imputation , yet are esteemed by you of moment , sufficient to drive you out of Gods Church . Do you think good that we should take notice of these also ? Prot. Yes . 14. Of Celibacy of Priests . §. 104. Cath. The first then that I will mention shall be the Churches Ordinance touching Celibacy of Priests . It is confessed by us that this is only an Ecclesiastical Constitution : It is also confessed by the most eminent among you , that if your Clergy would submit to such a Constitution , Ecclesiastical affairs would be better ordered . If they say , that all men have not the Gift of Continence ; they may be told , that in case any one of them wants this Gift , why does he intrude himself into the Office of a Spiritual Pastor ? Who compels him thereto ? Yet withall the same person in his younger days , had the Gift of Continence , whilst he enjoyned a subsistence by a Fellowship in the University ; Does then his Approaching to the Altar expel that Gift ? or does Ordination make a wife necessary in these latter days only , whereas never any former Christian Church , not in Greece it self , would permit any person , after made a Priest , to marry ? Even those very Councils forbad this , which permitted marryed men to receive Priesthood . If therefore there be among them a want of this Gift of Continence , it is their own fault : generally speaking , they want it , because they are unwilling to enjoy it , and will not make use of Prayer , Reading , Abstinence , Solitude , and other means proper to continue it . And will you , Sir , leave Gods Church , because those whom God hath appointed to take care of your soul , have not , neither desire to have Wives ? Prot. Go on to the next Point . 15. Of abstinence from flesh enjoyned in Fasting . §. 105. Cath. As not in the former Constitution , so neither in this by which the Church commands Abstinence from flesh on days of Fasting , can you have any pretention to impute to our Church , as we may to yours , that she favors carnal affections ? In the former , her Clergy imposed on themselves alone the burden of renouncing all , even otherwise lawful , satisfactions to the flesh : And for this you , who are nothing concern'd , will be angry , and forsake a Church because Mortification is practiced by the Pastors in it . In this latter Ordinance she indeed , I mean her Clergy , restrain in some measure the appetites of the Layty , but they do not in the mean time favour themselves . If it were not good for our Souls to abate the intemperance of our Bodies , Ecclesiastics would not afflict themselves by practising it : And if it be good , Laicks are too blame to find fault with it . §. 106. However , I cannot judge you so unreasonable as to joyn with your hot-headed Controvertists and Preachers , who for these two Ordinances sake impute to our Church the teaching of the Doctrine of Devils , in forbiding to marry , and commanding to abstain from meats — since it is manifest that these Heretics , of whom Saint Paul prophesied , and which appeared shortly after in the Church , uttterly condemned Marriage in all , as an abomination in it self : and taught that all Creatures having life are composed of particles of the evil Deity , and therefore to be had in execration . Now , Sir , can you observe any affinity between these Doctrines , and those of the Catholic Church , teaching that Marriage is honourable in all , who are called to it ; but yet that Virginity especially in persons consecrated to God , is better : And again , that all Gods creatures are good , and to be received with thanksgiving , but yet on some few days when we are for the good of our Souls to subdue our carnal Lusts , fermenting in our Bodies , it is expedient to abstain from some more nourishing meats , though otherwise in themselves lawful and good ? Prot. I am sufficiently perswaded Saint Paul never intended you in that Prophesie . And now , Sir , it will not be necessary you should trouble your self about any other Points debated among us : None of which ( as neither indeed the two last ) being of such moment , as to oblige any one to break from any Churches Communion at all : Since all the Doubts concerning them consist in this , Whether a single Christian may safely judg himself wiser and holyer then the Church . Cath. God Almighty establish in your heart a love of his Truth and Peace . And now for a farewel , give me leave to add a few considerations touching the general argument of both our Discourses . Prot. I give it willingly . §. 107. Cath. Then , Sir , you may remember how at our last meeting I told you that it was the common artifice of your Controvertists , when they are charged with Schism , to delay the examination of that most important Point , till the Greek Calends , that is , till all other particular Controversies be debated to their satisfaction , which will never be . But now I must alter the expression , and tell you , it is not so much a voluntary artifice , as pure necessity that put them , and you , upon that unreasonable Method . §. 108. When a Catholic is examined why he is so , an Answer is readily suggested to him , that it concerns the safety of his Soul to be a member of that Church which from his Creed he learns to be Holy and Catholic : and that the Roman is such , having all the Marks by which the only true Church is characterized in Scripture . He answers , directly to the Question , without comparing particular Tenents of his Church with those of other divided Congregations , which requires much Study and learning beyond the ability of ordinary Catholics : whereas the most simple are unquestionably perswaded of the Authority ▪ of their Church and that keeps them safe in it , against all the captious Objections of Sectaries endeavouring to shake their Faith in particular Doctrines , the justifying of which they leave to their Teachers and Governors . §. 109. But a Protestant being examined , Why ( for example ) he is Member of the Church of England , it never enters into his thoughts to justify his Church by the Marks of Unity , Antiquity , Succession , Universality , &c. nor does he pretend that his Church has any Authority from Christ to oblige him to believe her rather then any Fanatic Congregations ; for she her self will not suffer him to say so . What does he then ? Truly he leaves his Church in a desperately forlorn condition ; he never thinks of her , though she be the only subject of the Question , but diverts his fancy to spy out faults and errors elsewhere , comforting himself with a perswasion that he has found them ; though perhaps he be not able to penetrate into , or truly state one Point of Controversie . And this illogical Method , Sir , you have observed in this Discourse : and as illogical as it is , I am confident you cannot mend it : for doubtless if you could have furnished your self out of your Anti-catholick Writers , or if your self could invent any specious Arguments to recommend to any mans liking , or esteem the Church of which you profess your self a Member , you would not have neglected the doing it ; you would not have been quite silent in the only matter which you were concerned to prove . Now , Sir , I am not desirous to take advantage against you from your past Method of proceeding . Take your own time to think better of it , and if it be your pleasure that we may have a third Meeting , I shall willingly expect a direct Answer to my Question , Why are you still a Protestant ? Prot. I will through Gods Grace seriously think on this : and I will either provide a satisfactory Answer , as you require , or give you leave to conclude , that my eyes are opened to see the true Catholic Church , of which I will live and dye a faithful Member . §. 110. Cath. Gods Holy Spirit direct you . And be pleased to take this Admonition with you : That unless you can find out a way to demonstrate the Protestant Church , in whose Communion you have hitherto lived , to be a true Member incorporated into that Catholic Church , which ( unless the Creed be false ) had a being before Protestancy was heard of , and so continues the same , your Soul is in evident danger , unless you forsake her : It will necessarily follow also ( except such a Demonstration can be produced ) that ; without further examination all those special Doctrines , which you have hitherto triumphed in , as Christian Verities , are certainly illusions and errours , because not professed in the same Catholic Church , which alone is the Pillar and Ground of Truth , and whose Teaching whosoever will not hear ( and believe ) is , by our Saviours sentence , to be esteemed as a Heathen and Publican . §. 111. And indeed , to deal plainly with you , it was more then you could justly challenge in the present occasion , that I should have the compliance so far , as to attend unto the charges and accusations laid by you against the special Doctrins of the Catholic Church : for such accusations could have no place in an Answer to be made to the Question proposed in the beginning . Indeed if I had now ( as may be done another time ) precisely imputed Heresie to you , it might have been proper for you to justifie your particular Tenents , and also to recrimimnate . But it was only the Crime of Schism that I laid to the Charge of Protestant Churches , and therefore asked you the Question , Why are you a Protestant ? Now to this Question , thus intended , no Answer can be proper but such an one by which you shall endeavour to demonstrate that the Protestant Church , in whose Communion you live , is not Schismatical , that it is not divided from the Catholic Church which never did nor ever shall fail , and that it has all the Marks which declare a Church to be Catholic . This you have not done : and no wonder , Since you can find no help for such a purpose from any of your Writers . And yet till that can be done , all other Disputes are to no purpose , neither can Catholics be obliged to engage themselves in them : or if they do so , it is only to shew you that , being evidently and confessedly Schismatics , you are also Heretics . §. 112. Now , Sir , Since I am assured you will find it utterly impossible for you , this way , to excuse any of your lately erected Churches from the guilt of Schism ; if still notwithstanding you will resolve to persist divided from that Catholic Church , which has been deserted by them all , my fear is that for the stupifying of your Conscience you will think it necessary to make use of that , lately so cryed up , Socinian Opiat , I mean , that desperate Principle , That Schism is one of those Theological Scar-crows , with which those who hold a party in Religion use to fright away such as making onquiry into it , are ready to relinquish and oppose it , if it either appear erroneous , or suspicious , Whereas whosoever shall , with a true and unpretended Conscience , perswade himself , or but suspect , that the Church requires a Profession of false Doctrins , or conformity to ▪ unlawful Practises , [ and of this each particular person must be the Iudge ] in s●ch a case he not only may , but is , obliged to separate from the Church : and by such Separation not he , but the Church , is guilty of Schism . Now , Sir , is not this Prinoiple a Preservative of soveraign virtue against all remorse of Conscience for Schism or Heresie ? Prot. But what would you have a man so perswaded , or so suspecting Errours and Misdemeanors to be in the Church , to do ? Cath. I readily enough grant , that in such a Case the man must neither profess , nor do any thing against his present conscience : And consequently , I do not say , he must separate , but if the Church for his obstinate disobedience shall cast him out , he must be patient . But the truth is , his case is deplorable , for every way he is exposed to extreamest danger . If he conforms against Conscience , he sins mortally by damnable Hypocrisie . If he refuses to conform , that is , to submit his private perswasion , or Suspicion , to the Teaching of the Church [ I mean , the Catholic Church ] his sin is yet more heynous , being a rebellious Disobedience to the highest and most Divinely established Authority upon Earth , from the guilt of which Disobedience no dictates of consoience , how unpretended soever , can acquit him . Otherwise none but false Hypocrites and subtle pretenders of conscience can be guilty either of Schism or Heresie : yea , the prouder menace , the more self-conceited of their own judgments , and more addicted to entertain suspition and contempt of their Superiors , the more innocent they shall be . So that a full perswasion , or it seems , but suspition that any Heretical Doctrines are Orthodox , will excuse all Heretics , even the most blasphemous , from all guilt and danger , and moreover , at the end of the account the Governours and lawful Teachers appointed by God in his Church , in case the excommunicate such Orthodox Hereticks , must alone be esteemed Heretics and Schismatics , only for teaching Truth and doing their Duty . §. 114. Indeed , if he who called Schism a Theological Scar-crow had intended to apply that Expression to single divided Churches , whose birth has perhaps been within mans memory , and particularly to the Church of England ( some Fundamental Doctrines whereof , to my knowledge , he did not assent to , and whose Ecclesiastical Government he did not approve ) his Assertion may be justified to be grounded on Reason . For who can tell how a Seperation from any of them can be called Schism ; or Tenents contradicting their Heresies ? They all mutually favour one another with the Title of Pure Reformed and Sufficiently Orthodox Churches : So that in which soever among them any one shall live , and from which soever of them any one shall think fit to depart , as liking another better , this , according to their common grounds , must be accounted a matter in a manner , indifferent , and however there is in it no danger of incurring the guilt of Schism , so it be done with an unpretended Conscience . It seems therefore to me an Act unjust and unsuitable to the grounds of Pure Reformation in some late Prelatical Writers , who charge with the Crime of Schism their tender Conscienced Orthodox Brethren for deserting their Communion : as it was anciently in the Donatists , those Arch-contrivers of Schisms for doing the same to the Primianists , Maximianists and Rogatists , subdivided Sects , Spawned from them . It is plain therefore that among all Reformed Congregations , Schism is a meer Scar-crow , and the like may be said of Heresie : And the reason is , because both Heresie and Schism must include an opposition to that Church only which can justly challenge an Authority to determin what Doctrins are true and necessary to be believed by all Christians , and to oblige all under penalty of Anathema's to joyn in her Communion : Which Authority only belongs to the Catholic Church , and which is not so much as pretended to by any Reformed Congregations . §. 115. Hence it necessarily follows , that the entertaining a perswasion that the Catholic Church ( to which God hath made a Promise that he will lead her into all Truth ) is guilty of Errours , can proceed only from an excess of Spiritual Pride : but it is moreover 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an obstruction of Reason , upon a meer suspicion of such Errors , to esteem one's Self obliged to separate from her Communion . But so pestilent is the Nature of Spiritual Sins , that though all men condemn them , and most men are deeply stained with them , yet not any one can see them in himself . Where shall we find an usurping Oppressor acknowledge himself Covetous ? or an ambitious man , proud ? So never did any Schismatic say , or think himself Such . He acknowledges that he separates from the Church , and boasts of it , yet he will not endure to be esteemed a Schismatic , as if Sinlurked only in the Greek expression . To conclude , Unless you will impute to all the Antient Councils and Holy Fathers of Gods Church not only the utmost extremity of ignorance and folly , but likewise a base partial interessedness , and most execrable Tyranny in denouncing Anathemas against Dissenters and Separatists , you will judge Separation from Catholic Communion to be no vain Theological Scar-crow . Such a sleight Opinion of the harmlesness of Schism was not first branched in this Age. Saint Augustine will inform us , that in his days , There were some who said ; We thought it made no matter where ( that is , in what Communion ) we preserved the Faith of Christ : But ( saith he ) thanks be given to our Lord , who hath gathered us from separation , and hath made manifest to us , that this is a thing pleasing to God , who is One , to be served in Unity . Such horror had those great Lights of the Church of the Crime of Schism , that according to their judgment , even Martyrdom it self cannot cure the deadly poyson of it : And , that the Martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring Schism in the Church , is no less glorious , then that which is suffered for refusing to Sacrifice to Idols : That there cannot possibly be made any Reformation of such importance as the mischief of Schism is pernicious : And in a word , That it cannot possibly be , that any one should have a just cause to● separate from Catholic Communion . More to this purpose you may find in the Second Section of the Collection of Testimonies out of the Holy Fathers at the end of our former Discourse . Prot. I well remember them : therefore , if you please , here we may make an end . §. 116. Cath. Farewel , Sir , and pardon the frequent urging of this most necessary Admonition . If I thought you would require it , I could very easily have concluded this Discourse , as I did the former , with a Collection of Testimonies from the Holy Fathers to justifie the Churches Doctrines through all the Points here mentioned . But such a Collection having been the only Subject of many great volumns published by Catholic Doctors , it will be sufficient to refer you to them . I will only desire you to take notice in perusing them , first , That never any such Book has been written by any Protestant . And next , that such Collections have been made by Catholics to shew that their whole Religion , came by descent from the Antient Fathers : Whereas Protestants only upon a particular occasion , Select some obscure , or ambiguous passages from their Writings , with a purpose to cast a mist besore the eyes of unwary Readers that they may so elude the force of those Testimonies far exceeding in number , and more perspicuously evident , produced by Catholics . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A34972-e1290 1 Tim. 3. 15 Psal. 122. 3. Matt. 5. 14. Isa. 54. Mat. 18. 17. Calvin . Instit. lib. 4. cap. 1. Calvin . Epi. ad Melanct. Prejugez . con . les Calvinists San. Relation pag. 233. Roses his View of Religion . pag. 4768. Humsr. in Iesuiti●mi part . 2. 〈◊〉 . 5. Mig . leb . Cent. 6. p. 289. lb. c. 10. p. 748. Cari●● . Chron. lib. 4. 〈◊〉 . Onan● . Epitome cent . 6. Parker Antih . B●it . c. 17. A●ch . 〈◊〉 . pro 〈◊〉 . Dom. p. 33. Osiand . Epist. p. 290. Whitak . cont . Dur. l. 5. §. 26. Humfr. ad . rat . 5. Godwin in Conv. Brit. c. 4. Magdeb. Cent. 6. c. 10. Castal . in Praefat. Bibli●r . Lat. Philip Nicolai de Regno Christi . c. 1. p. 53. Au● . Epist. 165. Calvin . In●stit . l. 4. c. 2. Notes for div A34972-e16900 §. 42. August . in Psalm . 30. Conc. 2● . Aug. in Ps. 147. Aug. in Psal. 56. August . in Epist. Ioan . 2. August . cont . Faust. l. 13. c. 13. Aug. in Psal. 85. Aug. de Baptis . cont . Don. l. 1. c. 10 Aug. in Ps. 1. 30. Pacian Epist 2. ad Sympron . Dionys. Alex . ap . Euseb . l. 6. Aug. Ser. 22. de diversis . Aug. in I sal . 42. It● . l. 4. c. 62. Aug. in Psal. 48 : Aug. de Vera Rel g. Aug. Epist. 48. Aug. cont . Epist. Fundam . c. 3. Fulgent . de ●ide ad Pet. cap. 39. Aug. Retract l. 1. Id de Utilitate . Aug. de Unitate Eccl. c. 19. Aug. in Psal. 41. Aug. de . Baptismo cont . Donat . l. 2. Aug. cont . ●reseon . 〈◊〉 . 33. Aug. de Quantit . Animae . c. 7. Aug. cont . Iulian. l. ● . c. 5. Hilar. l. 1. Tertull. de Praescrips . c. 18. Aug. Epist. 118. Aug. de Haeres . Vincent . Lirin . Comon . c. 38. Notes for div A34972-e18420 S●ogli , ●el Chr. Nau●r . 1 Kin. 12. Mat. 5. 13. 14. Conc. Trid. Sess. 4. Io. 16. 13. Mat. 16. 18. Bulla Pii● P. 4. Conc. F●r . Perron in Ambass . Epist. Margaretae Gubernatricis ad Archiepiscopum Camerac . & Responsis ejusd . Confess . de Foy : Art. 36. Catech. Dimanch . 53. Ib. 52. Ibid. Epist. a● Cardin. Perron . Council . Trid. Sess. 13. can . 6. Bull. Pii . P. IV. Concil . Trid. Sess. 22. c. 1. Hebr. 9. 26. Ib. 28. Ib. 12. Ioh. 22. 23. Mat. 18. 18. Iam. 5. 16. Concil . Trid. Sess. 14. Can. 13. 14. Concil . Tride● Sess. 2● . Suarez . Vasquez . Concil . Trid. Sess. 21. de Reform . c. 9. Ibid : Sess. 25. Council . Trid. Sess. 6. can . 11. Ib. can , 34 , Ib. c. 9. Ib. c. 8. Ib. c. 16. Ibid. Ib. Sess. 14. cap. 8. Can. Miss . ●uth . Concil . Trid. Sess. 25. E●ius . Bull. Pii . P. IV. Council . Trid. Sess. 25. 2 M●cchab . 12. 43 , 44. Calvin . Insti . lib. 3. c. 25. §. c. 1. Tim. 4. 1. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Mat. 18. 17. H●le's Discourse of Schism . Epi● a● . Diut . Aug. Epist . 48 Dionys. Alex. ap . Euseb. l. 6 Pacian . Epist. 2. Iren. l. 4. c. 62. Aug. Epist , 48. 
B04919	----	Partridge's advice to the Protestants of England. Partridge, John, 1644-1715. 1678 Approx. 7 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). B04919 Wing P615 Interim Tract Supplement Guide C.20.f.2[314] 99890930 ocm99890930 181635 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. B04919) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 181635) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books; Tract supplement ; A1:1[317]) Partridge's advice to the Protestants of England. Partridge, John, 1644-1715. 1 sheet ([1] p.). s.n., [London : 1678?] In verse. First line of text "Now, to your cost, you see with grief and tears,"; first line of first stanza - "Touch't with a teeming strain of English growth,". Place and date from Wing (CD-Rom, 1996). Other suggested dates of publication 1682 and 1687, with the latter based on British Library Sloane ms. 2281. Reproduction of original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Poetry -- Early works to 1800. 2008-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-09 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-11 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2008-11 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Partridge's Advice To the PROTESTANTS of ENGLAND . NOW , to your cost , you see with grief and tears , The tricking Shams of the proceeding Years : You that now see , scorn'd to believe it then Impos'd upon , even by the worst of Men. Now hang your Freedom on each Villains Sword ; Cheated your selves , taking your Princes Word . Thus folly still helps to compeeat your fate : And all that can be said , You Repent to late . But , come , chear up , Heaven will relieve your need ; 'T is from that Throne , your happy Fates decreed . He had his orders then to spare you too : A 〈◊〉 ●●●…ipping is the Scholars due . The troops of Gods are brought you to carress : The dextrous Arts of Priests and Idleness . Religions scandal , to encrease Rome 's store ; Which Fools believe , and mad Men do adore . Tricks made by Priests , the Ignorant to surprise . Who Sacred Writ and Reason do despise : But you know better , and have oft been told Of those damn'd Cheats , you know they want your Gold. Preserve your Faith , your Ancestors have won : You know the Truth , the Mistick Three in One. Stoop not to Idols , nor lay Reason by . Give not your Faith up , nor yet tamely die . The Sun will rise , the Actors fill the Stage : And One and Twenty Months is not an Age. Therefore be Wise , attend the Hand Divine , Till the still Voice gives you the Sacred Sign . I. TOuch't with a teeming strain of English growth , My burning Muse into a flame breaks forth In Sacred Passions , scorns to be afraid Of those vast Murders pious Rome hath made . A gracious Mother , merciful and good , Her Thoughts are murder , and her Bosom's blood . II. The Priests of Rome are like their Mother true , Lazy and Letcherous , yet Obedient too ; Furnish'd with all the Vice that Nature gives : They are the only Epicures that lives . Yet they converse with God , disperse their Powers , Confess your Wives , and also get you Heirs . III. Of all the Arts the Devil yet made choice , This thing of Popery was his Master-piece . For in revenge with Heaven , being at ods , He taught the Papists how to Eat their Gods. Then 't would not be amiss , since thus they do , To make clear work , and Eat the Devil too . IV. Can you forswear your Faith , give God the lye , Cant with a Priest , and lay your Reason by : Lay down your Wealth to serve the Church & they That suck your Blood , when they pretend to Pray ? Can ye be Priest-rid , and be aw'd by Threats ? Can ye believe a Crew of Pious Cheats ? V. Can ye believe a little Dow-bak'd God , A Conjuring Bell , and a Good-Friday Rod , A Lying Legend , and a Priestly Curse , A Dish of Holy-water , and a Cross ? When Rome grows Rampant , Hell it self contrives . When Satan Preacheth , Belzebub believes . VI. What Man can think the Inquisition good , When Church-men wash their Hands in Lay-mens Blood ? Can ye adore a Cross , be damn'd in Jest , Cheat all your Senses , and believe a Priest ? Heretick can't believe , ye 're only fit . True slaves to Rome will never question it . VII . Should but a Priest say to his Zealot , Go Murder that Heretick : it must be so ; He dares not ask the Reason : goes his ways , The Father says it ; and the Fool obeys . What Man of Sense , but must amazed stand , To see Fools act , what Bloody Rogues command ? VIII . Consider France and Spain , see what 's there done ; Under what Plagues those Neighbouring Nations groan . And all this done by Holy Churches care : For where Priests sway , be sure oppressions there . Priest ! P — on the name , I loath the very smell : They 'r wretched things , scarce good enough for Hell. IX . The Flux of Fate , that gives us hopes and fears , Sets Rome in Triumph ; London all in Tears . That Brood , by Flames , that made your City rue , Will , if they can , next burn your Bodies too . Rome's Bloody Bigots , Londons Fate once chang'd ; Yet of a Crew of Rogues , but one Fool hang'd . X. Apostate Church ; a Faith built up in Blood. A lazy Priest , a little sensless God. All their Religions Lyes : its proofs a sin . When Scripture fails , then Miracles come in . Yet nee'r forget , nor it forgive them Knaves , While Martyr'd Godfrey's Blood for Vengeance craves . XI . Creation , What is that ? What Noyse ye make ? The Thing 's not strange that Priests do undertake ; Nay , and do more , the Church hath here the odds , God made but Man , but now the Priests make Gods. Never be bubled by a Popish Lye , Rather than that , resolve Revenge , and dye . XII . Let not Rom's Court , Hozo proud , e're expect On English Men her lawless Laws t' erect ; Nor let the Popish-brood think to controul One single Attom of a true English Soul : God loaths their Worship , they hate Holy Writ , We hate their Faith , Hell waits to punish it . 
A93670	----	Questions propounded for resolution of unlearned Protestants in matter of religion, to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed church of England. Spencer, John, 1601-1671. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A93670 of text R230353 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing S4957). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 53 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 29 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A93670 Wing S4957 ESTC R230353 99895991 99895991 153615 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A93670) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 153615) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2372:7) Questions propounded for resolution of unlearned Protestants in matter of religion, to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed church of England. Spencer, John, 1601-1671. [2], 11-63, [1] p. [s.n.], Printed at Paris, : 1657. The page numbering begins with number "11". By John Spencer. Reproduction of original in the Newberry Library, Chicago, Illinois. eng Protestants -- France -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. A93670 R230353 (Wing S4957). civilwar no Questions propounded for resolution of unlearned Protestants, in matter of religion, to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed c Spencer, John 1657 9047 4 10 0 0 0 0 15 C The rate of 15 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Pip Willcox Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Pip Willcox Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Questions propounded for Resolution of unlearned PROTESTANTS , In matter of Religion , to the Doctours of the Prelaticall pretended Reformed Church of England . Printed at Paris , 1657. Questions propounded for Resolution of unlearned PROTESTANTS , In matter of Religion , to the Doctours of the Prelaticall pretended , reformed Church of England . 1. Quest . WHither every Christian is not obliged , to chuse the safest way , all things considered , to Salvation ? 2. Quest . Whither that way , wherein both parties acknowledge , that unlearned men may have possibility of Salvation , 1 though one of them say it be with difficulty and danger , if they look not well to the foundation , be not prudently to be judged more safe for the unlearned , then that which is esteemed safe by one only party , and that incomparably less in number , but by the other incomparably greater party , which equalizes the less in all respects requisite to gain credit and authority , is constantly held to be utterly void of all possibility of Salvation , even for unlearned persons ? 3. Quest . Whither this be not the present case betwixt Protestants and those of the Roman Church , according to the acknowledgement of the latest and learnedst of Protestant Authours ; they acknowledging the 2 said possibility of Salvation for unlearned persons in the Romane , and the Romane Doctours denying all possibility to unlearned Protestants , so long as they remain willfully in the Protestant Religion ? 4. Quest . Whither all unlearned Protestants , who are sufficiently informed of what is here said , are not quilty of a damnable neglect of their Salvation , so long as they remain Protestants , and refuse to be of the Roman Church ? 5. Quest . Whither a person , who is in quiet possession of any Goods , Titles , Rights , or Dignities , &c. retain not the right to all such Goods , and is wrongfully deprived of them , so long as he neither confesses that he hath no right to them , nor is condemned by the clear sentence of any lawfull and competent judge , of sufficient authority to define against him , but still maintaine● his cause against his Adversary , and gives at least probable answers to all that he alledges against him , and pleads to be restored to his ancient possession taken from him by force and violence ? And whither he , who thus violently took the possession from him , be not obliged in conscience to restore it to him again ? and whither he proceeds not unjustly , so long as he retains it from him ? 6. Quest . Whither this hath not been , within the last hundred and fifty years , and still is , the proceeding of Protestants against the Romane Church , violently excluding her Bishops , Pastours , and people , from the quiet possession , of many hundred years continuance , of their Doctrine , Dignities , Titles , Governments , Benefices , Churches , Possessions , and still retayning them , and refusing to restore them ; those of the Romane Church still claiming their right , and never having been condemned by any competent and lawfull judge , nor acknowledging themselves convinced to have obtained that possession wrongfully . 7. Quest . Whither the quiet possession of many ages , both of the Eastern and Western Churches , in their unanimous consent of Doctrine and practise , in most points of controversie betwixt them and Protestants , be not a sufficient proof to justifie the said doctrine and practise ; till it be convinced clearly , evidently and undeniably , ( by reason or authority ) or lawfully condemned of errour ? So that it belongs to Protestants , who are the Aggressours , to convince their adversaries of errour , and not to those of the Roman , or Grecian Churches , to prove their Tenents by any other argument , then that of their quiet , ancient , and universall possession , though Catholicks be upon the affirmative , and Protestants upon the negative ; as he who quietly possesses the name , title , armes and lands of such , or such a familie , hath sufficiently proved , that he has right to them , and that they are truly his , till he either confesse , that the contrary is sufficiently proved , or that it be lawfully determined against him . 8. Quest . Whither it is not a most insolent madness ( as St. Augustin . terms it ) or an insufferable height of pride , for any Christian whatsoever to call in question , much more to censure and condemne as erroneous , that which all the visible Churches in the world taught and practised ; and a manifest foolery , to follow any teachers , and give eare and belief to them , who contradict the universall practise and doctrine of the whole Christian world ? 9. Quest . Whither the first was not done by the first Authors of Protestant Religion ; and the second done , and still continued by their followers ? or if the first Authours of Protestant Religion received those points of their doctrine from any visible Church in the whole world which existed immediately before their relinquishing the Roman doctrine , let that Church be produced , and named . 10. Quest . Seeing Protestants affirme , that the Roman Church is infected with errours in Faith , which they pretend to have purged in their Reformation , I demand that it be evidenced , when any of these pretended errours begun to be publickly taught & practised out of some approved Authours of any age , who affirm , that the publick profession of the said errours begun in or about their time . For seeing they were publickly practised through all Christendom , if that publick practise had ever begun in any age since the Apostles , it must have been taken notice of : whereby their instances of consumption in the Lungs , of a beard growing white , &c. are shewed to be nothing to the purpose ; because they are either wholly secret , or insensible , and no way publick and notorious , as these were . And seeing Faith by S. Paul . Ephes. 4. v. 1. 2. is said to be one , and reckoned up with the unity of God and Christ , and so must be perfectly , one , how Protestants , and those of the Roman Church can properly be said to have one Faith , when the the one believes , what the other disbelieves ? And as opinions contradicting one another cannot be said to be one opinion , how can Faiths contradicting one another be said to be one Faith ? neither is it enough to say , that they are one in that wherein they agree , for so they will be one only in part , or partially , and not absolutely and entirely : and as the least difference destroyes the perfect unitie of God & Christ , so will it do that of faith ; and though my opinion agree with that of another in many things , but disagrees in many others from his , we can never be said absolutely ( as it must be in faith ) to be of the same , or one opinion . Quest . 11. Whither it be not a great argument , to induce any rationall indifferent man , to judge that the Protestant Authours are put to great Straits , and to desperate acknowledgements , when being ashamed of the first refuge of their beginners , in flying for the defence of their Succession to an invisible Church ; and no less of the second , in alleadging for their predecessours and continuance of the visibilitie of their Church , Berengarius , the Waldenses , Albigenses , Wicleffests , Hussites , and other publickly condemned hereticks , they confess , that they have now no other means to save their visible succession , but by acknowledging , that they succeed to the Church of Rome , and other Churches joyning with her against them in all the points of difference betwixt them , and her ; and so are enforced to acknowledge her , and all those who are united to her , to be true Churches of Christ , and consequently to hold no fundamentall errour at all ; & consequent to this , to acknowledge , that their first Authours & Churches , both in England and other countries , wronged the Church of Rome and those others insufferably , first , in condemning them of Superstition , Idolatrie , Antichristianisme , &c. which are fundamentall errours in Religion , and destructive of Salvation . Secondly upon this pretext in destroying , burning , and alienating to secular uses so many thousands of their Churches , Monasteries , Towns , Citties , Castles , Villages . Thirdly in massacring and putting to cruell torments and death , so many Priests and Professours of the Roman religion . Fourthly in depriving their Bishops and Clergie-men of their respective Church-governments , dignities , Seas , Benefices and Churches , and setting up others , they yet living , in their places . Fifthly in making it no less then high Treason , ( which is yet in force ) either to be Priests , or to communicate with them in many spirituall Church offices and Sacraments . Sixthly in continuing to this day , in a violent detaining of their Churches , benefices , dignities , and spirituall functions , from all those of the Roman Profession , and holding them in their own hands ; and all this , because they maintain certain pretended errours , which they now confess not to be fundamentall , nor destructive of Salvation ; & consequently that those of the Roman Church have suffered , and still suffer all these intollerable injuries , for that which even these modern Authors acknowledge to be no more then a veniall or small sin : for if it were mortall , it would destroy Salvation , so long as one willfully continues in it ; which they affirm , it does not . Further by this acknowledgement , these modern Protestant Authours must confess , that their former writers , who were of a contrarie mind , in charging the Church of Rome and the rest with her , of superstition , and Idolatrie , &c. and all those , who then joyned with them , and all their modern Churches and Protesters , both without and within England , who at this day hold it as a point of their faith , to accuse the Church of Rome in the same manner , erre damnably against Christian Truth , and consequently are no true Churches of Christ . For it cannot be lesse then a damnable errour to make it a point of their faith , and religion , to condemne any one , much more all the visible Churches of the West , nay and of the East too , and so of whole Christendom , for nine hundred years together , of grievous superstition , when upon better examination , the Doctours of the same Protestant Church are compelled by force of Truth to confess , that those Churches neither are , nor ever were guilty of any of those horrid errours , and at the most erre only venially and lightly ; which hinder them not , either to be 1 a true Church of Christ , or to obtain Salvation , even while they most constantly and immoveably maintain them ; and accurse all who willfully contradict them , or condemne them as erroneous . And hence also it follows , that seing those modern Protestant Authours and their partie , communicate in prayer and Sacraments , with the Presbyterians and Calvinists , who accuse the Church of Rome of Idolatrie , &c. ( and so put it in fundamentall errour , ) and acknowledge themselves to make one Church with them , must be guilty of deadly schisme by that communion and acknowledgement ; and consequently so long as they continue in that communion , are uncapable of Salvation . Quest . 12. Whether it be not a great argument of securitie to those who either are of the Roman Church , or convert themselves to it , that her very adversaries after so many condemnations of her to hold most grievous , and damnable errours , dare not now accuse her to hold any errour destructive of salvation ; so that the belief of her doctrine in every point , their obedience to all her commands , the exercise of all her practises , their praying to Saints , reverencing of holy Images , adoring of Christ as really and naturally present in the Sacrament , &c. consist with salvation . And though some say , though they destroy not salvation , yet they are dangerous points , and practises , weakning the foundation , and endangering the destruction of it in continuance of time ; yet who sees not , that it is more secure to hold a religion , which makes the foundation only weak , by their adversaries confession , then to hold theirs , which the contrarie party most constantly affirms to destroy quite , & raise the foundation of religion , and to make salvation , not only hard & in danger , but utterly impossible , till it be deserted . Quest . 13. Whither it be a likely thing , that the chiefest of the pretended errours in the Roman religion , contain any danger of loosing salvation , in maintaining them , seeing for this thousand years , by the common confession of Protestants themselves , they have been universally believed and practised , as matters belonging to Christian faith and dutie , both by the Latin and Greek Church ; and so the belief and practise of them was the common way , wherein Christians were saved ; which if it were dangerous , what other safe way was there , wherein Christians might be saved ; & yet certainlie there was alwayes a safe way to Heaven : And what likelyhood is there , that the safe way should be wholly unknown and unpractised for so many hundred years together , and the common known way , according to the full belief & setled perswasion of all the visible Churches of Christendom , should be dangerous and unsafe ? or what reason can be given , that the Professours of the doctrine of the Roman Church , should be in an unsafe , or dangerous way , before Protestants begun seeing they had none in those times , to shew them , that they were in danger . Quest . 14 Whither it have any shew of probabilitie , that the said pretended errours , though they raise not the foundation of Christian faith ( as the late Protestants confess ) yet they may in time endanger the raising and destruction of it , as they argue , seeing that after the universall belief of them , for a thousand years together , the foundation remains yet undestroyed and entire ? For if a thousand years continuance of them hath stood with the integritie of the foundation , what appearance is there , that they will ever cause , or induce the destruction of it ? Quest . 15. Further concerning this Protestant distinction of errours in faith , fundamentall and not fundamentall , I demand first , what they understand by fundamentall errours ? for if they mean any nicetie in speculation , or Theologicall discourse , it belongs not to the knowledge of the unlearned : either therefore they must understand by a fundamentall errour , such an errour in faith , as destroyes salvation howsoever that comes to pass , or they say nothing to the present purpose . This therefore supposed to be their meaning , I demand secondly a Catalogue , & precise number of the fundamentall errours in faith , that is , how many , & which are those errours in faith , which destroy salvation ? for what helps it a Christian to know , that there are such destructive and damnable errours , unless he know whether he hold any such errour himself , or no ? And how can he ever be certain of that , so long as he is ignorant , which are fundamentall errours , which not ? If this Catalogue be refused , I demand at least some evident means , or marks , to distinguish errours in faith , destructive of salvation or damnable , from others consistent with salvation , or veniall : which is neither to deny any of the Articles contained in the three Creeds ( as some Protestants have thought ; ) for one of them puts the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son , the deniall of which they neither do , nor can hold to be a fundamentall errour , unless they affirm the Grecian Church to erre fundamentally , & so denie it to be a true Church of Christ ; which were quite against the said Protestants , seeing they maintain the contrarie . Nor is the Creed of the Apostles alone a sufficient rule to determine fully , which are fundamentall points , which not ; both because there are some things in it , which ( by reason of the lightness of the matter they contain , ) come not by far so near the radicall and primarie misteries of Christian faith , as do many points controverted betwixt Protestants and those of the Roman Church , and therefore cannot with any shew of truth be termed fundamentall by Protestants , such as are the circumstances of time & persons , as that our Saviour suffered under Pontius Pilate , and no other judge , that hee rose the Third , and no other day , &c. And because some points , necessarie to the subsistence of Christian faith according to Protestants , are not expresly defined in that Creed ; as that the Holy Scriptures are the divine word of God , which is the precise number of the Books of Canonicall Scripture ; whither , there is any written word of God , or no ; or any Sacraments , &c. so that a Christian finds not all fundamentall points of faith set down expresly in the Apostles Creed . Neither is the Scripture a sufficient rule to know which are , which are not fundamentall points . For there are a thousand , nay a million of Truths expressed in Scriptures , which touch not immediately the foundation of faith , as Protestants term it ; and no small number of points , according to them , fundamentall , which are not expressed in Scripture , as the number of Canonicall Books , the entire incorrupt puritie of the originall , in any copie , or copies , which is come to the hands of Protestants , &c. which in their principles are such points of faith , that true faith , and consequently salvation , cannot be obtained without them . For if sole Scripture , ( as they affirme ) be the rule of faith , and all that is in Scripture is to be believed , and nothing to be believed , but what is in Scripture , or evidently deduced from it , seeing faith is necessarie to salvation , the determinate belief of all that is true Scripture , from which only ( they say ) the true points of faith are drawn , must be necessarie to salvation , and so a fundamentall point of faith . Thirdly , I demand , how any Christian can affirm , that the denyall of any point of faith whatsoever , being sufficiently propounded as such , is consistent with salvation , seeing all such denyalls , or disbeliefs , include this damnable malice , of attributing falsity to that which is revealed by God himself , as all points of faith are , how small so ever the matter be , which is revealed in them ; which appears evidently in this example . I suppose that this sentence of Scripture , Tertiâ die resurget , he shall rise again the third day , is sufficiently propounded to any one , as a point and article of Christian faith , as well according to the substance resurget , that our Saviour should rise again , ( which Protestants grant to be a fundamentall point ) as the circumstance of time , Tertia die , the third day . Now suppose that some Christian , to whom this whole sentence of Scripture is sufficiently propounded , should firmely believe the substance , or mysterie of the resurrection , because he esteems it to be a fundamentall point , but should disbelieve the precise circumstance of time , that it was only upon the third , and no other day , I demand seeing both the one and the other is propounded equally , as expresly contained in that sentence of Holy Scripture , whither he that disbelieves that the resurrection happened upon the third day , and dyes in that belief , can be saved ? Quest . 16. I demand farther , that seeing S. Paul , Hebr. 11. v. 1. says , that faith is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , the substance , or ground ( as the Protestant English Bible of Anno 1648. hath it ) of things hoped for , and is reckoned up by the same Apostle Hebr. 6. v. 1. 2. amongst those things , which are called by him basis , the foundation , one of them being Faith to God . And the Apostle Ephes. 2. v. 20. sayes we are built {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , which now , according to Protestants , can be nothing else save the writings of the Prophets and Apostles in Holy Scripture , I demand , whither to say that some points of Faith are not fundamentall , or belonging to the foundation , be not as contrarie to common sense , as to say , that some stone in the foundation of a building belongs not to the foundation , or is not fundamentall ? Quest . 33. Further I demand , that seeing S. Paul affirms in the fore cited place , Hebrews the 6. vers. 2. that laying on of hands amongst many other points , is the foundation ; how Protestants can deny , that ( seeing the laying on of hands is disbelieved and rejected by them in the Sacrament of confirmation , and by some in the Administration of Holy Orders , as a Popish superstition ) that such Protestants differre fundamentally , or in the foundation from those of the Roman Church ? or , if the laying on of hands belong to the foundation , as S. Paul here affirmed , why anointing with oyle , mentioned by S. Iames , should not also be a fundamentall point ? or why , laying on of hands ( being only , as Protestants esteem it , a ceremonie not Sacramentall ) should be here termed the foundatìon and the substance of the Eucharist , which all hold to be Sacramentall , and more then a meere ceremonie , should not be fundamentall ? or lastly , what reason there is to say , that laying on of hands hath a nearer connexion to the radicall and prime mysteries of our faith , then many other points controverted betwixt Protestants and those of the Roman Church ? It is yet further demanded , seeing Protestants affirme , that the whole visible Catholick Church may erre in the definition of points of faith not fundamentall ; and seeing they affirm , that the points in difference betwixt us , are not fundamentall , and so not necessarie to salvation ; & lastly . Seeing they affirm also , that the Scriptures may be obscure in points not necessarie to salvation , by what means can they ever think to convince the Roman Church of errour in these points of difference betwixt them and her ? Quest . 19. Seeing also , that every point of faith is a divine truth proceeding from the Revelation of God , and to be believed ( as I suppose for the present with the common consent of Protestants ) with an infallible assent of faith , if the universall visible Church may erre , and the Scriptures may be obscure as is generally affirmed by our adversaries in points of faith not fundamentall , how shall such points as are in controversie betwixt us , and are accounted by Protestants not fundamentall , or not necessarie to salvation , be discerned to be points of faith ? or how agreed this modern Protestant doctrine of no difference betwixt us in points necessary to salvation , with that of their beginners , and more ancient Predecessours , who taught that the Scriptures were clear only in all points necessary to salvation , and upon that pretext , both affirmed that our doctrin's against them , were clearly convinced of falshood by the authority of sole Scripture , and allowed all lay people promiscuously to read them , as being clear to them in all the points controversed betwixt us ? for this manifestly supses , that they were held by those beginners to be points of faith necessary to salvation , or fundamentalls : or what means is there to believe them as points of faith ; seeing they can never be believed infallibly upon the Churches authoritie by reason of her pretended fallibilitie in them ; nor expresly for the authoritie of Scripture by reason of its obscurity in the delivery of them , according to the principles of Protestants ? Quest . 20. I demand further , if the whole visible Church may erre , in the definition of any point of faith whatsoever , that errour must either proceed from ignorance & want of light , or from malice and want of vertue or goodness : not the second , for then the whole visible Church of Christ should not be Sancta , Holy , as it is believed to be in our Creed , and described in the Scriptures , but should become a Harlot & abominable willfull deceiver of the world , and a seducer of Nations in teaching , contrarie to the known truth : not the first , for if she could erre out of ignorance , to what purpose do Protestants appeal to her determination in a lawfull generall Councell , in any of the points in difference betwixt them and those of the Roman Church , seeing she may through ignorance erre in the determination of them , as being not fundamentall , according to them . Neither can it be said , that , notwithstanding the whole visible Churches fallibility in points not fundamentall , nay though it should actually erre , and that errour should be evidently discovered , yet even those who had thus evidently discovered the said errours , were to conform themselves to those erroneous definitions of a generall Councell . For if this conformity be understood of an internall conformity in judgement , it is wholly impossible , seeing that were to judge the same thing to be true , and not true , at the same time , and to judge against an evident knowledge : and if it be understood of an externall conformity and profession only , it were manifestly impious and high hipocrisie , in resisting the known truth , and professing to believe that as a divine Truth revealed by Almighty God , which they evidently know to be a most false errour in faith . Secondly , if one were to subscribe & externally to conform himself to the definitions of lawfull generall Councells , which one perswades himself , he evidently knows to be erroneous , till another Councell be assembled to correct them , why did not Protestants afford this externall conformity to the definitions of the Generall Councell of Florence , of Lateran , and to the second Councell of Nice , ( to omit others ) till some other lawfull generall Councell came to correct their pretended errours , they having no other reason to reject the authority of the said Councells , then that they define many things against the Protestant doctrine . Thirdly , seeing it was never yet seen , nor can be ever made manifest , that any lawfull generall Councell revoked any definition in matter of faith , of any former lawfull generall Councell , what hope is there , that they shall now begin to do , what was never done before them ? Fourthly , if it were supposed , that any such revocatorie definition should issue from them , that party , whose doctrine should be condemned by such revocations , would accuse that Councell of errour , as much as the contrary party accused the former Councell of errour in defining against them ; and so the controversie would remain as indetermined as it was before : neither would it be possible ever to determine it fully by a generall Councell : for the party condemned would still expect another Councell to revoke that definition ; which seems to him evidently erroneous ; and so there would be no end of new determinations and revocations in infinitum . Yet further , seeing lawfull generall Councells do not only oblige , even under pain of Anathema , or being accursed and excommunicated , all Christians to believe and profess the doctrine which they teach them , not only to be true and free from errour , but to be divine Truth , revealed by God himself ; if they should erre in any such definition , they must make God the Authour of errour and untruth , which quite destroyes the veracity of God , and consequently overthrows the main and primary foundation of Christian faith , and therefore must necessarily be held to include a fundamentall errour : so impossible and implicatorie a thing it is , for them to erre in matter of faith , and not to erre fundamentally . For either that erring Councell must define some positive errour , or that which God never revealed , to be revealed from God , or that some true revelation of God is an errour ; both which contain no less malice then this , to make God a lyar . Quest . 21. Seeing S. Paul , Ephes. 4. v. 14. affirms , that our Saviour had appointed Pastours and Teachers , till the day of judgement , as a means to preserve Christian people from being carried about with every wind of doctrine , these words every wind of doctrine cannot be understood disjunctively ; for then if those Pastours preserved them from being seduced in one only point of Christian doctrine , it would not be true , that they preserved them from being carried about with every wind of doctrine ; but they must be understood conjunctively , that is , that they preserve them from being carried away with any wind of doctrine whatsoever , which should chance to be buzzed into their ears by false Teachers . Now seeing such winds of erroneous doctrine are raised as well in points , which Protestants account not fundamentall as in fundamentalls , the meaning of the Apostle must be , that by means of those Pastours Christians be preserved from following any errour in faith , whither it be fundamentall or not fundamentall ; and consequently that they can ass●redly direct them , to eschew all errours in faith , which they could not do , if they themselves were subject to teach them any errour , or seduce them by any w●nd of doctrine whatsoever . Seeing also that S. Paul , in the same place , Ephesians the 4. v. 10. tells us , that the said Pastours are to consummate the Saints , and to build up the mysticall Body of Christ , I demand , whither the Apostle by these words make not those Pastours , able to secure Christian people from errour , not only in the foundation ( as Protestants term it ) but in superstructures also ; for otherwise they would have been instituted by our Saviour only to found his mysticall Body the Church , but not to build it up , and to ground , or initiate the Saints , but not to consummate them . Quest . 22. If it should be answered , that these and such like promises , or institutions of Christ , are only conditionall , that is truly intended on his part , but yet may be frustrated by the malice of such as corrrespond not to his intention ; and therefore , though he intended , that these Pastours should performe the said offices in the Church , yet that it involved this condition , if they were not wanting on their parts , but by their failing the institution of Christ is made frustrate and of no effect . I answer to this prophane and unchristian objection , first , that if Christs promises and institutions be thus inefficacious and conditionall , that notwithstanding all the promises , that Christ hath made for the preservation of his Church , yet by the malice of Christians , or others , the whole Christian Church may utterly faile and come to nothing ; Secondly that it may erre even in fundamentall points ( contrarie to the doctrine of Protestants ) and so become a Synagogue of Satan . Thirdly , that the ancient promises , of the coming of the Messias , of the redemption of mankind , of the saving of some at the last judgement , &c. have no absolute certainty in them , and so by the malice of men might have been , or may be frustrated . Fourthly , that by this there is no certain credit to be given to any promise , or institution of God or Christ , in the whole old or new Testament . For a thousand different conditions may be invented , which not being performed , or put , the prediction fails : thus one may say , ( upon the like grounds ) that as the promises of benefits , or blessings , might be hindred by the malice and demerits of wicked persons , so the Threats and Thundrings of punishments upon sinners , may be hindred by the vertues and good works of Saints : and because we have no rule to know , what proportion of goodness or malice is sufficient to frustrate such predictions , we remain wholly uncertain , whither they shall be absolutely verified , or no , unless therefore this principle be setled , that all divine institutions and predictions , are to be held absolute , and never to be frustrated , whensoever it is not evidently apparent , that they are conditionall , and may be hindred , there can be no certainty , that any institution , or prediction in the whole Scripture shall be absolutely fullfilled . Seeing therefore it is not evident , that this institution Ephesians the 4. &c. and others of the same nature concerning the Church , are conditionall , they are to be supposed to be absolute , and not to be frustrated by any malice of men whatsoever . Fifthly , no Protestant , who holds the whole visible Church cannot perish , nor all her Pastours prove willfull Seducers , can apply this answer to the Text now cited , viz. Ephesians 4. &c. for if it be hindred by the malice of the said Pastours , they must with joint consent maliciously and wittingly teach false doctrine to be the doctrine of Christ , which were to teach fundamentall errours , and to fall of from Christ . If this solution may pass for current , who can be certainly assured , that there is any true Church of Christ , visible or invisible , existent now in the world : for all the promises , concerning the continuance of it to the worlds end , may be as well said to be as well conditionall & frustrable by the malice of men , as this Ephesians the 4. &c. and who knows , that the said malice is not already grown to that height , that it hath deserved , that God should take his true Church quite out of the world ; and so that there is now no true Church at all existent in the whole world . Quest . 23. Whither it be not evident , that unlearned Protestants , who cannot determine differences in religion , either by force of argument , or places of Scripture , but must wholly depend , in the choice of their faith , upon the authority and credit of Christian Teachers , are not obliged in conscience to preferre that authority and credibility of Doctours , before all others , which all circumstances confidered , is absolutely and unquestionably the greater authority . Quest . 24. Whither that authority of Doctours , where those of one side are equall at least , if not exceeding them of the contrarie party , in learning , wisedome , zeal , sincerity , vertue , sanctitie , and all other qualities and perfections , which conferre to the accomplishment of compleat authority in a Christian Teacher , and with this equality incomparably exceed the Doctours of the other party in number , is not in all prudence to be judged absolutely & unquestionably the greater authority ? Quest . 25. Whither this equality at least , in all the said perfections , is not to be found in the Roman Doctours , compared with those of Protestants ? Quest 26. Whither with this forementioned equalizing the Protestant Doctours , those of the Roman Church , the many years of their continuance , and universall extent of their religion considered , exceed not incomparably in number those of the Protestant profession ? Quest . 27. Whither , this equality in perfections & incomparable excess in number considered , all unlearned Protestants are not obliged , both in prudence and conscience , to preferre the authority of the Roman Doctours before that of Protestants , and consequently to follow the Roman , and desert the Protestant doctrine ? Quest . 28. Whither upon the foresaid considerations , the authority of the Protestant Doctours , in all things wherein they contradict the Roman , is not contemptibile , and unable to sway the judgement of any prudent Christian , to frame any morall esteem of it : for though in matters , wherein they are either seconded , or not contradicted , by an authority incomparably greater then their own , they may deservedly be esteemed , for their naturall abilities and morall qualities worthy of credit , yet in all things where in they stand in opposition , and contradiction against an authority incomparably exceeding theirs , they deserve nothing but to be slighted & contemned by all those , who are to be led by the sole force of authority . Thus when Protestant Doctours affirm , that either Scriptures or Fathers are for them , and against the Roman Church , what they say in this is not to be regarded , seeing the authoritie of the Roman Doctours , absolutely greater then theirs , unanimously affirms the quite contrary . Thus when they affirm that the Roman Church is full of errours , and superstitions crept in they know neither when nor how , their accusation is to be slighted , being clearly and constantly contradicted by a far greater authority . Thus they say , that Protestants may be saved , living and dying willfully in their religion , they deserve no credit at all , for the quite contrary is most constantly defended by the incomparably stronger authoritie of the Roman Doctours : and the like is to be affirmed in all the points of difference betwixt the two Religions . So that a Protestant is not to consider the abilities & authority of his Doctours absolutely , or in matters out of controversie , but as contradicting an authority ●comparably exceeding theirs ; in which contradiction they deserve neither credit nor esteem . Quest . 29. I demand further , that if the authoritie of all the Doctours of the whole body of Protestants , be so inconsiderable , in comparison with that of the Roman Doctours , how much less will be the authoritie of any one sect , or party of them ; and then how minute and scarce perceptible will be the authoritie of a Lawd , an Hammond , a Chillingworth , a Fern , a Bramhall , a Taylor , &c. which now obtain so powerfull an Ascendant , upon the hearts of our modern lay Protestants ; seeing they are in a manner nothing in respect of the authoritie of the Roman Doctours . Quest . 30. All this is demanded , supposing that the Roman Doctours were only equall to those of Protestants in all the forenamed qualities , conducing to the perfect authoritie of a Master in Christianity : But now I demand , whether those , who have authoritie of Teaching in the Roman Church , generally speaking , in so much as can be prudently deduced by experience from them , are not much excelling the Protestant ministrie in all the said qualities ? What Councells have they worth the mentioning in comparison with the generall Councells consenting with the present Roman Church , ( even according to their own confession ) as the second of Nice , the great Councell of Lateran , the Councell of Constance , Florence & Trent , wherein such multitudes of learned men , & Holy Patriarchs , Metropolitanes , Archbishops , Bishops , Doctours , Prelates , both of the Eastern and Western Churches , unanimously confirmed the Romane , and condemned the Protestant doctrine ? What proofs of learning have the Protestant ministry , comparable to those of the Roman Doctours , whereof many have written one , no small number two , others three and four , others six , eight , ten , twelve , and some twenty & four and twenty great Tomes in Folio , and those replenished in the generall repute of Christendom , even amongst Protestants also , with profound and high learning ? Who amongst their ministrie have they , who have obtained the universall esteem of sanctitie , as hath our Gregorie , Beda , Thomas , Bonaventure , Antonine , Dominicke , and diverse others . Where find they amongst theirs that zeal , to pass into the heart of so many barbarous and heathen Nations to plant the Gospell , even with the undergoing of unheard-of torments , and suffering most cruell Martyrdoms , as many of the Roman Clergie have done within these late years ? let them name but one sole Minister , who hath suffered Martyrdom for preaching Christian faith to the Pagans . What means have the Protestant Ministry , with their wives , goods and families , to apply themselves to study and devotion , comparable to our single Clergie , and retired religious . Where is that unanimous consent in all points of faith ( seeing they are perpetually jarring , not onely one with another , but the same Ministers dissenting notoriously now , from what they taught twenty years ago ) amongst them , compared to the constancy and agreement of our Doctours ? What Miracles have any of their Ministry ever done , in confirmation , either of their doctrine against the Roman Church , or of the Christian faith against heathens , as ( unless all humane faith be infringed ) many of ours have done , both against them and heathens ? I could instance in many more particulars , but these may suffice for these short demands . Whence appears evidently , that whosoever professes to be led by the sole authority of Christian Doctours , and Pastours , must either deserve the esteem , I say not only of an unchristian , but even of an imprudent man , if he adhere to so undeserving and contemptible an authority , as is that of the Protestant Ministry in comparison of the Roman Doctours , who so incomparably outstrip them , not only in multitude , but in all the motives and perfections , which give credit to the authority of a Christian Teacher . Quest . 31. Whether hence be not evidently discovered , not only the insufferable pride of Luther , and the other originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy , in preferring their sole authority before that of the Prelates and Doctours of all the visible Churches in Christendom , existent when they begun first to preach their doctrine , but the extream madnesse of all the ignorant laity , who followed them , upon their sole authority , and preferred one single person upon his bare word , ( without any extraordinary signes or manifest proofs from heaven attesting his authority ) before all the Doctours , Prelates , Councells , Churches within the precincts of Christendom , both of that present time and for nine hundred years before ? and if those were infested with so deep a frenesie , how can any man be judged deservedly discreet and prudent , who approves of their proceedings in this particular , and sides with them , ( at least in some article or other ) in the opposition of the whole Christian world , as all Protestants do , even to this day . Quest . 32. Hence I farther demand , that seeing on one side the true Christian religion , having the divine wisdome for its authour , cannot admit of any thing imprudent , as properly belonging to it , in the choice of it : and on the other , that the Protestant religion , or any sect whatsoever sprung from it , or existent in it , cannot be prudently chosen , by any unlearned person , who is sufficiently informed of the nullity of that authority which propounds it , compared with the authority propounding the Roman religion ; whether I say , those particulars considered , the Protestant religion , in any sect of it whatsoever , can be esteemed the true Christian religion ? Quest . 33. Hence , I presse farther , whether the proving that Protestant religion cannot be prudently chosen , or retayned , by any unlearned persons , who are sufficiently informed , of the eminent authority propounding the Roman religion , is not a sufficient argument to them , that no sect amongst them in any point wherein it differs from the Roman , hath either any solid ground in the holy Scriptures , or true relation to Gods holy Spirit , or coherence with true reason ; seeing a religion , which cannot by them be chosen prudently , cannot possibly proceed from any of these three ; whatsoever fair show Protestants , each respectively to his severall sect , make vainly of them . Quest . 34. And upon this , I demand yet farther , whether the Roman Doctours have any obligation to urge any other argument then this , either from Scripture , Fathers , or reason against Protestants , till they have cleared their religion from the impeachment of imprudence , committed by their followers in the election of it , or persisting in it , as is afore declared . Quest . 35. On the contrary side ; I demand whether the Roman Doctours have any obligation in rigour of dispute , to use any other argument , for perswading unlearned persons , to desert the Protestant , and imbrace the Roman religion , then this of imprudence in adhering to the Protestant , and of prudence in uniting themselves to the Roman Church , so long as the said unlearned Protestants , perswade themselves , that they proceed prudently in preferring their own before the Roman . Seeing this erroneous perswasion is the first step which must be redressed relinquishing the one ; and the contrary perswasion , the first step which must be fixed , in approaching to the other . Now when unlearned Protestants once confess that they are convinced in this , and thereupon recede from Protestancy , but object that the prudentiall motives to preferre the Roman religion before the Protestant , as they convince that the Protestant is wholly improbable , and so to be deserted , so they convince no more then that the Roman is probable , and so is in great likelyhood to be the true religion , but convince not , that it is so much as morally certain ? to Protestants brought thus far , there is an obligation put upon Roman Doctours , to prove at least the morall certainty of it ; to such as acknowledge that it is morally certain that the Roman religion , is the sole true saving religion , but deny , notwithstanding , that it thereby follows that it is fallibly certain ; rises an obligation to prove , that it is also infallibly certain , and when one is once convinced of this also , but yet doubts whether this infallibility be divine , and so the highest of all infallibilities , there will be also an obligation to shew to such as are brought on so far , the most high divine infallibility of the Roman religion . Hence therefore I demand , whether our late Protestants , and Socinians , proceed not preposterously , and unreasonably , in pressing Roman Doctours , to demonstrate the divine infallibility of the truth of the Roman religion , before they themselves grant , that it is either infallible in any degree , or morally certain , or probable , or prudentiall . For though it be necessary , to prove all these particulars in their due circumstances , yet there is no necessity , to prove them all at once to every adversary , but by degrees the one in order after the other , with correspondence , to what of them is denied , or called in question , by those with whom we treat , for thus we proceed orderly , and logically à notioribus , ad ignotiora , and hold a correspondence with nature , by proceeding , ab imperfectionibus , ad perfectiora , still observing the stop , or progresse of our adversary , and still stopping , and going forward along with him . And if this methode had been strictly held by our late controvertists , the adversaries mouths had been stopped long before this . Quest . 36. Seeing these demands are proposed to such as believe that without true Christian faith no man can be saved , and that this saving faith is one only ; and that this only faith is infallible , & divine : and moreover seeing it is already shewed that every difference , in any point of faith whatsoever , makes a different faith and religion ; and that amongst all the different religions , & beliefs , now on foot in these parts of Christendom , there is none that can be prudently imbraced , ( by such as are in the number of the unlearned , and yet are sufficiently informed about the force of the authority of those who teach them ) save the Roman , and that no religion can be true , which cannot be prudently imbraced by such unlearned persons , seeing in a manner the whole multitude of Christians consists of those who are unlearned , and must according to prudence , follow the authority or their Teachers . Those things , I say considered , it is finally demanded , whether by proving , that the Roman faith only can be prudently imbraced ( which is already done ) it is not made inevitably clear , that the Roman only , is that Divine , Infallible , One , true Faith , wherein Christians may be saved . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A93670e-80 1 Bishop of Canterbury , in his Relation of the conference , &c. §. 35. pag. 280. 2 B. of Cant. in fore cited place . 1 Bish. Cant. p. 129. num . 3. B. of Cant. above cited 181. B. of Cant. p. 283. 
A70985	----	The reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of God called Quakers, that we are Jesuits, and Jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called April 1659, at the Bridge-house in Southwark, between VVilliam Cooper, VVilliam VVhitaker, Thomas VVoodsworth, VVieles, Watkins, Cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of Christ, and some of the people call'd Quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... W.S. Smith, William, d. 1673. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A70985 of text R33983 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing S204A). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 94 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A70985 Wing S204A ESTC R33983 13649179 ocm 13649179 100966 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A70985) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 100966) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1046:9 or 1546:2) The reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of God called Quakers, that we are Jesuits, and Jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called April 1659, at the Bridge-house in Southwark, between VVilliam Cooper, VVilliam VVhitaker, Thomas VVoodsworth, VVieles, Watkins, Cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of Christ, and some of the people call'd Quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... W.S. Smith, William, d. 1673. Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. Following letter containing the substance of the dispute. [2], 38 p. Printed for Thomas Simmons ..., London : 1659. Attributed to William Smith by NUC pre-1956 imprints. "The following letter containing the substance of the dispute ..." signed: Edward Burrough. Item at reel 1546:2 identified as Wing B6020 (number cancelled). Reproduction of originals in the Huntington Library and Edinburgh University Library. eng Society of Friends -- Apologetic works. Protestantism -- Controversial literature. A70985 R33983 (Wing S204A). civilwar no The reign of the whore discovered. And her ruine seen. Her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish Church (their elder sister) c Smith, William 1659 18214 24 0 0 0 0 0 13 C The rate of 13 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-05 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-07 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-07 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Reign of the VVhore DISCOVERED . And Her RVINE seen . THis is a certain Truth revealed in the light , and witnessed to by the Scriptures , that the Whore , ( the false Church ) hath long reigned in her fenced City which Cain the Vagabond and Murtherer built ; and long hath she been guarded and defended with Cain's Weapons , carnal Weapons ; and long hath she sate as a queen , seeing no sorrow ▪ and long hath her golden Cup passed up and down the Nations , which is full of abominations of her Fornication , whereby the Nations have been * corrupted , and the Inhabitants of the Earth made drunk : But now is the hour of her Judgement come , and coming ; now is her skirts lifted up , and her secret parts discovered , and discovering , and the Beast on whom she rode and rides , is seen , and his colour is known , and her secret Chambers of Imagery is found out , and her Sorceries and Witchcrafts are made manifest , and many people on whom she s ; ate , and over whom she reigned , are redeemed from under her , and reigns over her in Christ the Power of God , which redeems , and which preserves in the redemption : Oh let the redeemed of the Lord praise his holy Name , and walk to the praise and glory of his Grace for ever ; for the day is dawned wherein hypocrisie cannot stand , nor hypocrites hide themselves , and wherein fig-leaves cannot hide nor cover from the pure eye of the Lord God , which runs to and fro through the Earth , though they may be sowed together by such who have eaten of the choicest fruit the tree of knowledge of good and evil yeilds ; and by such who are called Orthodox men , Learned men , great Schollars , Wise Disputants , all is in valn , their labour is little worth , the Lord is come down to walk in the Garden , and his Voice , Where art thou ? is gone forth , and now is the Lord come , and coming to make inquisition for blood , and to bring every man's Work to Judgement , and to reward every man according to his Work . And now ye Priests and Professors in Southwark , especially who are called Presbyterians , whose cry is very loud against us who are called Quakers , and the noise among you is , That we are the deceivers , false prophets , and wolves in sheeps clothing , and that we deny the Scriptures , and are Jesuits , &c. Answ. Must this be true because you say so ? And must the people believe you before you prove it ? Nay , but you will be counted false accusers , and fierce despisers of those that are good , till you make it appear by better proofs then you could find to prove your selves Ministers of Christ at the late Dispute , & then you can find to quit your selves from being guilty of those things you charge us withall ; for indeed we count you guilty of the same things you accuse us for , and ever shall unless you can clear your selves , and convince us to the contrary ; for we see many signs , marks , and characters upon you , and many practices among you which were never found upon , nor among the true Ministers of Christ , and that are not owned by the Scriptures ; and this hath been signified to you already at the late Dispute , and in Writing also given into William Cooper's hands some Weeks since . And also in a printed Paper , titled , The grounds and reasons why we deny the Teachers of the world ; Which hath been printed six years since , and no Answer hath appeared from you the National Priests , who are concerned therein . And now seeing William Cooper and some others of your Brethren affirmed publikely , that we ( the people called quakers ) are Jesuits , and Jesuitical , and proffered to prove their affirmation , ( in the bitterness of their spirits ) therefore let us reason a little with you , and prove and examine you , that the people may see your Clothing or outside ( if not your inside ) to be Jesuitical at least ; and let us and all people know how you can quit your selves from being of that Popish Train ; and as for us , let our integrity and innocency plead for us , otherwise we shall say nothing for our selves , for the Lord doth plead our cause . Are not you like the Jesuits and Popish Priests , First , In your being made fit for your Call to your Ministry . Secondly , In your Call . Thirdly in your going forth , Fourthly , In your Work called to . Fifthly , In your Maintenance in your Work . Sixthly , In your Doctrines , Practices , Places of Worship , and manners in Worship . If you say nay , Make it appear not onely in Words , but in Fruits ; not Fruits of Violence I do not mean ; but Fruits of the Spirit of God , if you know it , and answer . First , Are you not like the Jesuits and Popish Priests in preparing your selves , and making your selves fit for your Call to your Ministry you profess ? Are you not prepared and fitted at those Schools and Colledges first ordained by the Pope ? Doth not learning some natural Languages and Arts , as Logick , and Rhetorick , and such like , make you fit for your Call ? And are not the Popish Priests and Jesuits made fit after this manner , in such places , and by such means , for their Call ? Then are you nor like them in this thing ? And was ever any of the Ministers of Christ fitted and prepared after this manner that he sent forth ? Secondly , Are you not called , appointed , and ordained by men to preach ? And do you not count that your Call , if you have the approbation of some that are counted Orthodox men , which have learned the natural Tongues and Arts that are taught in the Popish Schools and Colledges ? And are not the Popish Priests and Jesuits called and approved after this manner ? And are you not like them in this also ? Was ever Christ's Ministers called by man , or approved by man ? Thirdly , In your yoing forth to preach are you like the Ministers of Christ ? Do you go gorth freely , and minister freely from City to City , and Nation to Nation , as the Ministers of Christ did ? Have you received freely ? Have not you bought what you have with money ? And do you not strive to get the best Market place you can to sit down into sell it again , even at a deer rate ? And are not the Popish old Mas-houses your Market-places , where you abide many times for term of life ? Are not you the creepers the Apostle spoke of , that should creep into houses , and lead silly Women captive , laden with sin , led aside with divers lusts , ever learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth ? Are not all your followers such ? Doth not your fruits make you appear to be such house-creepers as were in the Apostles dayes ? Is not this the Popish Priests manner ? Do not they go forth in this way ? Are not you careless Watchmen , and dreaming Prophets , and idle Shepherds ? Do you not say we are Wolves ? And have we not had meetings several years in many of your Folds , ( called parishes ) in & over which you count your selves good Wattchmen , and true Shepherds ? But when did either of you , or any of you parish-Masters ( who would have others count you true Shepherds ) so much as come to save your sheep from being drawn or taken from , or out of your Fold ? And have you not lost many of the best and soberest of your flock ? Have you cared naturally for your flock , or naturally for the fleece ? Have you shewed your selves like true shepherds , or like hirelings in this thing ? Do you think you are wronged to be called and counted careless , dreaming , false , idle shepherds , and such who want the spiritual Weapons , and true Shepherds Crook ? Put aside Whips , and Stocks , and Prisons , and compulsive Laws , and what can you do ? Where 's your Spiritual Weapons ? Where 's your Shepherds Crook then ? If you lose these Weapons , what can you do to defend your selves or flock ? And if you put away the Wisdom which man teacheth , and which man hath taught you , as natural tongues , and arts , what can you say ? Is your armour the whole armour of light ? and have you the Sword of the Spirit ? and do you speak as the Spirit gives you utterance , as Christ's Ministers did ? Or do you not gain utterance as the popish priests and Jesuits gains it ? and have you not bought the art of uttetance ? and yet are not many of you so dull and sottish , that if you should lose your Notes ( which I have seen some of you craftily hide betwixt the leaves of your Bibles that the people might not see them ) would you not lose your method , matter and utterance , and so have little to say ? Why do you endeavour to hide your notes ? And do not some of you carry a Bible on purpose up with you into your Pulpits to hide your Notes ? And are there not some of you that have * Note Books bound and painted in form of a Bible , when there is no printed Letter in it ? Now could you not preach better without your Bible , then without your Notes and Note-Book ? Why do you not leave your Bibles at home ? Do you bring it onely for a cloak , custom & fashion ? and is not this the reason why people cry against us for denyers of the Scriptures , because we do not hold a Bible in our hands when we preach to people , and because we follow not your fashion , and have Notes to tell the people the Chapter and Verse ? Did Christs Ministers go forth after this manner with Notes in their pockets , or in a Book , to tell them what to preach , and how to preach ? and did they ever sit down and continue in one place for term of life , unless they could hear of a people that would give them more money , and greater hire ? Whose example do you follow in this , if not the Popish Priests ? Come Priests , let the people hear your answer . Fourthly , In your Work called to ; you say 't is to preach the Gospel , and the cry is among poor , blind , ignorant people , you are Ministers of the Gospel ; But are you not Ministers of the Letter ? and do you not call Matthew , Mark , Luke and John's Writings , the Gospel ? and do you not take the Letter for your ground-work , which you call your Text , and then by your art which you have learn'd at School , raise that you call your Doctrines , Points , Reasons , Uses , Motives , and Trials , and such like ? Now is not your preaching , or making an hours speech , artificial ? and is not your Work herein like the Popish Priests ? and are you not very unlike the Ministers of Christ in this your Work ? Did any of the latter Prophets take the former Prophets Words to speak from ? Or did any of the latter Apostles and Ministers of Christ , take the former Apostles and Ministers Words for their Ground-Work ? Did not they all minister according as they had received from God ? and was not their Work and Ministry for this end , To turn people to Gods gift in them , from the darkness to the light , from the power of Satan to God ? But is your Work so ? Do not you turn people's minds to something without them ? and do not your selves hate the light , and so are you like to turn people from darkness ? and are you not under the power of Satan you selves ? and do you not teach the poor ignorant people , that 't is impossible to be freed from under the power of Satan , and that they must never expect to be freed from committing of sin while living in the Body ? and are not those under the power of the Devil that doth the Works of the Devil , and obeys his Will ? are not those that commit sin the servants of sin , and free from righteousness ? Is not he that commits sin , of the Devil ? Then to what end and purpose is all your labour , pains , and study , and preaching , and praying , &c. if people must always be servants of sin , and slaves to the Devil , and never be redeemed from fin and iniquity ? What spiritual things do you sowe to poore people ? What Gospel do you preach ? What glad tydings do you bring ? Is this your glad tydings , that people must live in sin , and under the power of the Devil ? Are you not miserable Ministers ? Have you not brought another Gospel besides that which the Apostles preached ? Is not the Gospel glad tydings to such as are weary and heavy laden with sin , and in bondage to the Devil ? And is not the Gospel the Power of God ? And is not Christ the Power of God ? and is not he appointed to save his people from their sin , and not in their sins ? Have you not one thing still to learn of the Pope , and that is , to know where the time and place of Cleansing is ? How come you to miss preaching up a Purgatory , or place of Cleansing after this life , seeing your Doctrine and Principles admits of no such place and time in this World ? But are not the Papists and you both deceived in this thing ? Doth not the Tree lie as it falls ? And Judgement finde as death leaves ? And no unclean thing enter the Kingdome ? Come Priests , let us and the people here your answer . Fifthly , As to your Maintenance in this your Work ; How can you quit your selves from being like the Papist Priest and Jesuits ? Are you any thing like the Ministers of Christ in this thing also ? Have not the Pope , Cardinals , and Bishops , been the Foundation of your setled standing-maintenance by Tithes , Gleab-lands , Easter-reckonings , Midsummer dues , Mortnaries and Smoke penys , and such like ? Are you not beholding to the Pope & Popish Laws for this your way of maintenance ? And why do you deny the Pope ? Is it because he hath no authority in this Nation to give you any more means , nor to take from you what you have ? Is it not a great sign that the root of all evil is in you , ( to wit ) Covetousness , that you have swallowed down so much blood , liberty and goods of many of the poor innocent Lambs of Christ within these few years , because for conscience sake they could not put into your mouths ? Have you not prepared war against the innocent people of the Lord , who living in his pure fear , did not dare to maintain you in your Idolatry , in your lightness , pride and high-mindedness ? How many of you have appeared like a Troop of Robbers in taking , and causing to be taken away violently poor peoples Ports , and Pans , and Kettles , and dishes from them , sometimes not leaving them things necessary to make ready their food in ; and Bedding , and Clothes , and Oxen , and Cows , and Horses , and Harness , and Barns of Wheat , and Cart-loads of Hey and Corn , and their bodies also cast into prison ? Hath not this been your Work in this Nation ? Hath not the Lord raised a patient and harmless people to try you , which have not striven against you in their Wills , that you might manifest what was in your hearts , notwithstanding your talk of Christianity ; Have we not seen the murtherer offer a sacrifice ? and the prophane person weep for the blessing ? and the children of the Devil call God Father ? Hath not our eyes seen this ? And is it not manifest if the Lord God , which is the higher Power , unto whom our souls are subject , did not over-power , & chain , and fetter , and break the horns of the Wicked , no less then our lives and blood would satisfie ; for had not you ( to wit , you especially called Presbyterian Priests ) rather sit as a Popish Synod or Inquisition , then in the spirit of meekness , lowlinss , and soundness in words , in life and conversation , and Scripture-example ; prove your selves Ministers of Christ by your fruits & effects ? Was ever the true Ministers of the Gospel in any age or generation since the days of Christ , the Son of the living God , manifest at Jerusalem , maintained as you are maintained , by the ruine of others ? Did they ever take any thing violently from any man ? Nay , did ever they take or receive any thing at all from those that denied their Doctrine , and that would not receive nor own them as Ministers of Christ ? What , are you quite without shame ? Are you so greedy of filthy lucre , that you do not care how much you manifest your shame , and uncover your nakedness to all people ? If you keep a Flock , eat the Milk the Flock will give you ; if you plant a Vinyard , eat the fruit the Vinyard will yeild you ; should you covet your Neighbours goods , and take them away because you say he is a Heretick ? Should you rob your Neighbours vinyard because you cannot have fruit enough to satisfie your covetous desires out of that you have planted ? Should you go reap your Neighbours field , because where you have sown there is little come up but briars and thorns ? If you do thus , may not we , yea & all people , count you greedy of filthy lucre , covetous persons , and robbers ? Would you have better come up then you sow ? They that preach the Gospel , lives of the Gospel , and they never did , nor need petition the powers of the Earth to establish a Livelyhood upon them ; but you smell much of Popery in this thing , and you have no example in the holy Scriptures to justifie you , but the Romish black Train is your example , and therefore we deny you , and cannot but count of you as you are , and in so doing we wrong you not ; But have not you wrong'd us , and falsly accused us , and charged us to be like , or one with those whose example you are found in , and whose steps you follow , to wit , false Prophets , false Teachers , Popish Priests and Jesuits ? You shall bear your own Judgement . Sixthly , Concerning your Doctrine , Practices , Places , and manner of Worship . Are you not found , and do we nor find you in the popish Doctrine , and Jesuitical practices , and popish Mass-Houses , and in the manner of their Worship in some things , and in some other things of later invention which the Scriptures doth not own nor justifie , neither did the Ministers of Christ allow of ? If so , may vve not count you such as do not deny the popish vvayes , places , and manners , but lives in them , and by them ? Is it not a popish Doctrine and practice to oppose the light within , wherewith Christ hath enlightened every man that is come into the World , and to teach some other way to attain the knowledge of God , besides the light which shines in the heart , notwithstanding the Scripture testifies , that the light which shines in the heart must give man the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ ? And is it not the papists doctrine and practice to deny Revelation and Inspiration , and the immediate power of God present now , as of old ? and is not this your Doctrine and practice also ? Doth not the Scripture say , or is it not written , That there is none that knows the Father but the Son , and he to whom the Son reveals him ? So do not the papists herein ( and you with them ) deny that the knowledge of God is attainable , seeing you deny the way wherein , the manner how , & the thing by which he is known , seen , and revealed , to wit , the light within ? and if God be not known onely , and alone , by the revelation of Christ , and you and the papists deny revelation , and say it is ceased , then by what means do you expect to attain the knowledge of God , which is life eternal ? And how do you that deny Inspiration and immediate power from God , believe the Scriptures , wherein is promised many glorious things to be enjoyed by the children of the Lord , as the pouring forth of his spirit upon his sons & daughters ? and how do you own the New Covenant , the fear in the heart , and the Spirit of the Lord in the inward parts ? and you that deny the immediate voice , power , and presence of the Lord , , as of old , how do you believe Christs words , who said to his Disciples , Lo , I will be with you to the end of the world ? and is not the presence of Christ the immediate power of God ? and where two or three are gathered together in his Name , is he not in the midst ? and is not he and his Father one , whose abode is with his people ? But is not this too wonderful for Hirelings without a meaning ? And why do you talk of the Scriptures for your Rule ? Is it not for ends to yourselves ? Doth the Scriptures your pretended Rule , justifie you any more then they justifie the Pope , Cardinals , Bishops , Jesuits , Fryers , Monks , and popish priests ? VVhy do you talk of three persons , or Trinity ? Hath not the Pope learnt you that also ? Doth the Scripture speake anywhere of three persons ? And where had you that word Sacrament , and the word merit ? Had you not these from the papists ? And concerning your places wherein you commonly perform your publike VVorship ; who founded and named them for you ? Did not the papists ? as St. Mary Magdalens Church , St. Thomas his Church , St. Stephen's Church , St. Peter's Church , St. Paul's Church : Did not the very same spirit that was cast out of Mary Magdalen , and that stoned Stephen , and that murthered Peter and Paul , build and give Names to those Steeple-houses ? which you have suffered , if not taught the people , to call Churches , and the Houses of God , insomuch that it hath been a great crime among poor ignorant people to hear them called otherwise , & is stil , especially in some places of this Nation : Were they not the Popes Mass-Houses , and places of their Idolatrous Worship ? And what Rule have you in the holy Scriptures for any to worship the true God in these Idolatrous Dens , and Popish Houses , and to call them such , and such a Saints Church , especially without alteration in form , in name and esteem ? Did the children of Israel do so ? Did the primitive Christians do so ? VVhere is your example ? And who made George a Saint ? and Katherine , and Olives , & Mary Overies , and Giles , and Gregory , &c. that your Churches are called by their Names ? are they not of the Popes making ? are you not ashamed that people should call those places Churches ? And then concerning your Manners and Worship in these places ; Is it not your manner before your Worship begins , to ring Bells to call your Hearers ( your Brethren ) together ? and whom do you imitate ? and who learnt you this but the papists ? and why do you deny them in words , and imitate them in practice ? And is it not your manner to get an hour-glass to preach , and pray by , and to sing by ? and have you not the chief seats in the Assemblies ? the popish Train hath so ; and are you not like them ? Do not they worship , and preach , and pray , and sing by the hour ? then do you not agree with them ? Did ever the true Christians and Christian Ministers do so ? And why must you have a soft Cushion with silken Jobs at the corners to lean on to read your studied , devised , framed artificial Sermon or speech to the people ? And by what order was your Pulpit or high place hung with imbroydered Cloath , and some other of your stalls lined with cloath , when others want it to wear , even of your own heap , and sect and fold ? Who are you like in this ? Have you any such president in the holy Scriptures ? What ? and where is your Rule and Example ? If you must have a Cushion , cut off the Jobs ; and if you must have a Pulpit , take off your imbroydered cloaths , and cloathe your brethren which are within your own Parish , and of your own flesh ; and do not let them go up and down begging for clothes and food , while your Pulpits and Stalls , or other chief Seats , are clothed , imbroydered , and laced ; What manner of Christianity and brotherly love is there among you towards one another ? And how come you by this manners among you , that he that hath a Gold Ring , and costly Apparel , and is called a rich man , must have a sumptuous seat in the principal place ; and others in vile rayment can scarce have a place to sit on , but must stand afar off ? Where I say did you learn this manners ? Did you learn it of the Church of Christ , or the Pope and his Church ? And is it not your manner and custom to respect persons , places , times , dayes & things ? Doth not the Heathen so ? and the Papists so ? Then who may we compare you with , if not with those ? Did ever any of the primitive Christians do so ? Was it their manner to respect the person of him or her that had a Gold Ring or costly Apparel ? Or was it their manner to respect or cry up the Jewish Synagogues , or Heathen Idolatrous Temple , or any particular place or house whatsoever , as the onely place of Worship , and call it a Church ? Or did the Church of God in the dayes of Moses and the Prophets , when the Lord had given them victory over the Heathen their Enemies , did they ( I say ) preserve the Heathenish Idolatrous places of Worship , as Altars , Groves and Temples , and teach the people to call them Churches ? Was it not as lawful for those places to be called a Church , as 't is for these popish Dens ( builded with observation East and West , with a picture of a Cock and a Cross upon it , as the Papists devised and appointed ) to be called a Church ? Did not the Ministers of Christ gather people out of them , and bear their testimony against them , and all Temples made with hands ? Did not the Lord by his Hammer , and battel-Ax of War , break down , burn , and utterly destroy those places , and Images , and Groves , set up and consecrated by the Idolaters ? Did not the Lord begin such a work in this Nation some years since ? And hath some Instruments proved like Jehu , begun in zeal , and ended in covetousness , which is Idolatry , and hath not regarded the Law of God withall their heart , And shall that frustrate the work and purpose of the Lord ? Is he not raising others to accomplish his Work , and fulfil his Decree against the Adulterous generation , of what name or sect soever ? and down in esteem , if not in form , must the Popish Mass-Houses come , ( and which is now the Priests Market place , and called a Church ) and down must your Bells , and Pulpit-embroydered cloathes , and such like trumpery come , which hath been set up in the time of Popery , and since the cry was , Who is able to make war with the Beast ? And then is it not your manner to respect times , dayes , and things ? Are you not like the Papists in this also ? And have you not learnt of the Pope , Bishops , Cardinals , Jesuits Priests , Fryers and Monks , and Heathens , how , and what to call your times , dayes , months , and quarters , &c. Have they not all Heathenish and Popish Names ? The holy Scriptures you are not ashamed to say is your Rule , but in what one thing do you walk according to your pretended Rule ? unless you mean the Popish & Heathenish Scriptures , or Writings , & call them your holy Rule ; if you mean those , you shall be believed , because you are found walking thereafter ; but if you mean the Writings which holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit , we know you are lyars , and cannot believe you , for they never learnt you to follow the manners and customs of the Heathen nor Papists , as you do , in respecting , and naming , or calling your Times , Dayes , Months and things ; the Scripture of Truth teacheth to call Days and Months after this manner , First day , second day , third day , fourth day , fifth day , sixth day , seventh day . First month , second month , third month , and so to the twelfth month . The Heathen and Papists , and their Writings , teacheth to call the first day of the Week Sunday , or dies Solis , the day of the Sun ; the second day Monday , or dies Lun● , the day of the Moon , or the Moons day ; the third day Tuesday ; & the fourth Wednesday ; the fifth Thursday ; sixth Fryday ; the seventh Saturday ; according to the Names of the 7. Planets wch the Heathen and Papists talk so much of . And the first Month they call March , the second April , and so on to the eighth Month , which is called October , which signifieth the eighth Month , November the ninth Month , December the tenth Month , from the Lattin words , Octo , Novem , Decem , eight , nine , and ten ; and the eleventh Month you call January , and the twelfth Month February . Now do you not prefer the Heathenish and Popish Traditions , Rules , Customs , Manners , and Writings , before , and above what is delivered , prescribed , and taught in the Writings of the holy men of God ? so that it is come to pass by your so doing , that if people are brought to call daies , and months , and times , and places , and persons , according as those did who had the spirit of God , which the Scriptures teacheth and witnesseth unto ; I say , When people are brought to this , they become a hissing , and a wonder among you , and are counted nice , and frivolous , and unmannerly , and when we speak and write of hours , dayes , and months , as they are recorded in the Scripture , people cannot tell what we mean , nor how to understand us , nor when such a time , hour day or month is , but will rather mock and jeer at first hour , first day , first month &c. and will have no such reckoning of times in their temporal , civil , or spiritual Accompts ; these are your Auditors your Disciples , or Schollars ; as you have learnt , you teach ; as you the Priests are , so are the people , imitators of the Papists and Heathen in this , as well as other things ; and the Christians life , words , manners and behaviour , you are out of , and strangers to ; and may we not justly with the Heathen and Papists compare you , whose example you follow ? And then concerning the manner of your publike Divine Worship , ( as you call it ) have you not this manner and custom as the first part of your Worship , to sing David's Psalms in rime and meeter , divised , or turned thereinto by Poets or Musicianers , as Thomas Sternhold , and John Hopkins , and others , with apt Notes to sing them withall , before your prayer , and after your Prayer ; before your Sermon , and after your Sermon , of all the people together ; Is not this your own invention ? Was there any such manner of singing in the Church of Christ ? You say ; Let us sing to the praise and glory of God ; and you keep an Officer to read the Psalm to people , which are some drunkards , some covetous , some proud , some defrauders of their Brethren , dissemblers , double ▪ dealers , some Adulterers and unclean persons ; some jesters , and idle talkers ; some light , and vain , wild , and wanton ; some scornful high-minded , and mockers ; some disobedient to Parents , unthankful , and unholy , and of rude , unchristian behaviour ; Of such consisteth your Church ; and are not the Steeplehouse-singers such ? And can such persons sing to the praise and glory of God ? Or are they in a state and condition fit to sing at all ? Doth not weeping and howling , mourning , sorrow , and lamentation , and wo from the dreadful Lord God of Heaven and of Earth , belong to such singers ? Singing with Grace in the heart unto the Lord , we own ; but singing with wickedness , with pride and covetousness in the heart , we utterly deny ; Singing with the Spirit and with understanding , we own ; but your singing by Letter , with Musical Notes and Tunes , customarily , ignorantly , without understanding , we wholly disown , and bear our testimony against it as abomination in the sight of the Lord , and it was never ordained nor appointed in , nor by the true Church ; but it hath been ordained and appointed by the false Church , the Whore , and her Merchants , in the dark night of Apostacy , since the dayes of the Apostles , and since the true Church fled in to the Wilderness ; And is not this singing of David's Prayers , Mournings , Sighings , Complainings , and Cryes unto the Lord , and his Praises , Rejoicings , and magnifying the Lord , and such like conditions as David was in ; I say , Is not your singing of these things , like the Papists singing ? have you any more rule in the Scripture for your singing , then the Papists have for their singing ? And hath it not been one of the Whores later invention and addition to your Worship , even about the time of Queen Elizabeths reign in this Nation ? but the same pure , eternal light which appeared in the hearts of some about the beginning of our English Wars , and manifested much of the Popish Trumpery which was then in being , of which quiristers and singing-boys in white Surplices was one ; I say , the same pure , eternal light hath manifested your singing and noise to be as abominable in the ears of the Lord , as theirs , and to be denyed and witnessed against ; for you have no more rule in the Scripture for your singing David's Prayers , then the quiresters and singers then had to sing the Prayer which Christ taught his Disciples , which they called Pater Noster ; Which of all you Mass-house Singers are , or ever were what you sing , as when you sing , O Lord I am no● puft in mind , and that your eys are not scornful ? Are you not of such a proud and hard heart , and puft up mind , and scornful eyes , many of you , that you will scarce look upon , nor walk with , nor relieve those that are poor , though they be of your own Church ? Then do you not sing a lye in this ? And is that to the praise and glory of God ? Surely you dare not say that God is glorified with a noise of lyes ; not that David's Psalms are lyes , but you being not in the same state , condition , and life that David was in , they are lyes in your mouths : David said , Mine eys gush out with Rivers of water , because they keep not thy law , I am afflicted , & ready to dye from my youth up ; while I suffer thy terrors , I am d●stracted , I am like a Bottle in the smoak ; I am like an Owle in the desert ; I am like a Pellican in the Wilderness ; I am like a Sparrow alone upon the house top ; all my friends and acquaintance hath forsaken me . This David said , and you sing these words ignorantly , customarily , never witnessing the same state & condition , so they are lyes in your mouths , and God is not glorified , but dishonored by you in this part of your Worship ; and your singing , and the Papists , and quiristers , and Surplice-boys singing , is abomination alike in the sight of the Lord , and in the sight of his servants who are redeemed from amongst you , and from under the great Whore , which sits upon the Waters ; but the Lord our God is taking her seat from under her , and into the pit she ( with her golden Cup full of Sorceries , Witchcrafts , and Fornications ) shall fall , and none shall be able to deliver her , neither can she save her self , nor those that hath been , and still are made drunk with her Sorceries and deceiveable ways of unrighteousness , of which this trick , craft , and art of singing is one ; James said , Is any merry , let him sing Psalms ; He wrote these words to Saints ; but hear what he wrote to such as you , Cleanse your hands ye sinners , and purifie your hearts ye double-minded ; be afflicted , and mourn , and weep ; let your laughter be turned to mourning , and your joy into heaviness . Such as these hath no cause to be merry , who are sinners , whose hands are uncleansed , and whose hearts are unpurified , and whose minds are double ; And are not all ye Mass-house-singers in whole Christendome ( so called ) such ? But the Lord hath redeemed , and is redeeming many thousands from among you , Babylonish singers , and hath brought , and is bringing them to godly sorrow , which leadeth to repentance never to be repented of , and afterwards to the joy which shall never have an end ; and your rejoicing and singing which is carnal , customary , and formal , before any godly sorrow for sin you know , and before you are lead to that repentance which is never to be repented of ; I say , this your rejoicing and singing which is before repentance , must of necessity end in sorrow and anguish of heart : The Lord grant you such sorrow which leadeth to repentance in time , before Eternity seizeth upon you , that weeping , and howling , and gnashing of teeth be not your portion for ever ; for if the prayers of the unregenerate , ungodly , or wicked are abomination to the Lord , is their praises and singing any better ? Is praise comely in the mouth of a fool ? And are not they fools that lives in iniquity , & yet rejoiceth ? Consider this ye Priests , ye Jesuits , and Popish Christians , and let the Witness for God in your conscience , and in all consciences answer whether ye are not all alike . Concerning your praying after you have done singing . The Scripture saith , I will that men pray every where , lifting up holy hands , without wrath or doubting ; But what hands do you lift up ? Are your hands holy , & c ? Have not you Wrath , Envy , and Malice in your hearts , and doubtings , and waverings in your minds ? Is not your prayings like the Popish Priests and Papists prayings ? And like the Scribes and Pharisees prayings ? Did Christ ever teach you to pray any more then he taught them ? Are you his Disciples , or Schollars , or followers any more then they ? What do you learn of him ? And whither do you follow him ? Can you say that he hath taught you to pray as he taught his Disciple to pray ? Have you not learnt to pray of some other besides Christ ? And do not you ( instead of being led to pray by the Spirit of Christ ) pray customarily ? You know when you have sung out your Psalm , you make and frame a prayer , or else the people will wonder at you ; so instead of waiting and staying for the moving and leadings of the holy spirit to pray by , you wait for the end of the Psalm , and then you move and stir up your selves , and makes a mock of the movings of the spirit of God ; and so instead of praying by the Spirit , you turn up your Hour-glass , and prayes by that ; so that you know how long to pray , and how long to preach , and how long to sing by your guide , the Hour-glass , and your eye is often towards it for direction ; and when 't is a pretty deal run , you will tell the people you see the time is far spent , therefore you must hasten ; and when your Glass is out , you tell the people the time is spent , and you see the time is past , and therefore you shall conclude : Oh what do ye mean ye Priests , that ye are not yet ashamed of this divice and Popish Invention in this day of the light 's breaking forth in the hearts of people ! Ye search the Scriptures which you falsly call your Rule , and you say you are Ministers of Christ , and succeeders of the Apostles , but in trial you are found lyars , and your pretended Rule ( the holy Scriptures ) witnesseth against you as transgressors , out of the life of the holy men that gave them forth , wresting their words to serve your private ends to your own ( and others that are led by you ) destruction , and out of the Apostles and Ministers of Christs steps , life , manners , behaviour , doctrine and practices ▪ Where is it written in the holy Scriptures , and which of the Apostles and Ministers of Christ appointed and ordained that their succeeders should pray , and preach , and sing by an Hour-glass , and to meet together by the sound of the Bells to worship ? Where is that written ? And which of the Ministers of Christ appointed Bells to call their Brethren together ? In which of the Christian Churches before the Apostacy , was there Hour-glasses , and Bells , and Pulpits with embroydered Cloath about them , and lined Stalls for the rich , with a lock and key to keep the poor out , and many such like devices which are found amongst you ? I say , Where is your Rule● Where is your Example for any of these and such like things in the Scriptures of the holy men of God ? Come Priests , look out the Chapter and Verse , if you can , and let us know where it is ; until then , we shall conclude , yea , and it is concluded already , That you walk not , nor worship not as the Christians before the Apostacy did , neither have you them for your example or pattern ; but that your example and pattern is the false Romish Church your elder Sister , and the great Whore your Mother , we know , and the Beast she rides on , we have seen , which is of a Scarlet colour , and the blood she hath drunk of the Prophets , Saints , and Martyrs , the Lord is enquiring after , and making inquisition for , and a bed of Torment she shall be laid on ; Hearken and rejoice ye Saints , ye Children of the Most High , a Bed ( which betokeneth a place of Rest ) shall be the Whores place of Torment , her resting place shall torment her ; Alas ! alas ! Weeping , and wailing , and mourning over her , shall be the greatest comfort her Merchants that hath been made rich by her , and her children she hath delicately brought up , shall yeild her ; yea all ye Ship-Masters , and all ye company in Ships , and Saylors , and Kings , and Merchants , shall stand afar off for fear of her torment , and cast dust on their heads , and cry , weeping , and wailing , saying , Alas ! alas ! that great City , wherein were made rich all that had Ships in the sea , by reason of her costliness , for in one hour is she made desolate : Rejoice over her thou Heaven , and ye holy Apostles and Prophets , for God hath avenged you on her , you have seen the Angel take up the great stone , and give the sign of her perpetual downfal ; and a great voice of much people in Heaven is heard , saying , Halelujah , Salvation , and Glory , and Honor , and Power unto the Lord our God , for true and righteous are his judgements , for he hath judged the great Whore which did corrupt the Earth with her fornication , and hath avenged the blood of his Servants . And again they said , Halelujah , &c. And now you National Priests , are not you the Ship-Masters , or Parish-Masters , Merchants , or Traders by Sea here spoken of ? And the gathering together of the waters he called Sea ; And the Beast with seven heads and ten horns rose out of the Sea ; The wicked are like a troubled Sea : And the waters thou sawest where the Whore sitteth , are peoples , kindreds , tongues , and nations : So the sea is Waters , and the Waters is Peoples , Multitudes , Tongues and Nations , whereon the Whore your Mother hath long sate , and in , or among whom you her Merchants have built your Ships , and set up your Trade by the Authority of the Beast which rose out of the same place the Whore sate on ; He that hath Wisdom , let him understand : I say , By the Authority of this Beast who hath seven heads , ten horns , ten Crowns upon his horns ; & upon his heads the name of Blasphemy , unto whom the Dragon gave his power , have you , and all Parish-Masters and others of the Whores choice Merchants in whole Christendom sate and advanced your Trade above , and beyond all the Crafts-mens Trade beside in the whole World : And this may appear plain to the view of all people , if these few particulars following are considered . First , You have got a Market-place where none must sell any Wares but your selves , though it be never so much better then yours ; neither must any come into your Market-place to give freely to poor people , whose souls are ready to starve for want of the Bread of life , notwithstanding they buy of your deceitful Wares . Secondly , You have had , and some of your Brethren still have a compulsive Law to compel and constrain all people within such a compass or quarter to come to your Market-place and buy of you , and none other . Thirdly , Whether those people within such a compass , or quarter , or parish , come to your Market , or no , or receive any of your Merchandize , notwithstanding you will make them pay as much as if they did , or else you will take , or cause to be taken from them violently ( it may be ) three , four , or five times as much as the price was you first set upon your Commodities . Fourthly , Though your Merchandize be never , so deceitful and insufficient , yet none must refuse them , neither will you bate of your price ; and if any come to see the deceitfulness and insufficiency of what you sell at a very deer rate , and declare against it , that people might not be deceived and defrauded always with deceitful words , and devillish Doctrines , you wil sue such at the Law for slanderers , and get one of the Beasts Horns that hath a Crown upon it , to grant you 100. l. damage , or some other punishment , as whip , or prison , or banishment , or life , ( if ye can get it ) for the Whore loves blood , and so doth her Merchants and children . Fifthly , Another thing that makes your Trade exceed all the Crafts-mens Trade beside in the whole World , is , That when poor people have bought your Merchandize , and paid you , or at least are liable to pay you , you take them home again in your Pockets , or Bibles , or Note-Books , and lay them up in your Ware-house , to wit , your Liberary , and as you see occasion , and opportunity , you carry them to Market again , and they wil yeild you as much as they did at the first ; and yet after you have sold your Imagery Work over and over , you can trim it , and dress it a little , and put the title Doctor of Divinity to it , or Batchellor of Divinity , or Mr. William , or Mr. John such a one , Ministers of God's Word at such a Church , in such a place , and find a Chapman , some Bookseller , or Printer , or other , to give you money for it : Much like this might be mentioned , but this is sufficient to let all people which are not quite blind see wherein this whores Merchants trade exceeds all other Arts , Crafts , and Trades , in the whole world . And also the reason may here be seen wherefore these Parish-Masters , and others of Mystery Babylons Merchants strives and petition that their trade may be upheld even in this Nation , under this notion , Propagate or hold up the Gospel ; when if they would speak as they mean , it is thus , Propagate , hold up , or maintain our Mothers Authority , by which Authority we have had a good trade a great while , and our profits hath been great , and our incombs sure ; and let the Romish Churches our elder Sisters , her Institutions , Ordinations , Customs , Manners , Practices and Places stand , else we shal have no certain Trade ; for if we lose our Elder Sisters Law which gives us Tythes , and that compels people to buy our Gospel , we shal be undone , peoples hearts are so hard they wil give us little freely , though they have been , and stil are our Auditors , and we have taught them some ten , some twenty , thirty or forty years , yet we are afraid if we lose our elder Sisters Law , that those that have been our constant customers would hate us much of our price , and those that do not like our Doctrine and Church-discipline , and our chargeable Gospel , will give us nothing at all ; is not this the very language of your hearts , whose cry is , Propagate the Gospel ? let that which searcheth your hearts and discerns the secret intents thereof , the light of Christ in your Consciences answer ; for the Gospel is Christ the power of God , which propagates , or holds up all things , and 't is ignorance and blasphemy to cry and petition to an arm of flesh to propagate this Gospel , but 't is another Gospel , that they who have brought it are accursed that wants propagating ; and this shall all your Merchants of Babylon know , in the dreadfull day of the Lord our God , when all the blood you have drunk , and Tortures , and Racks , Whips and Prisons , Stocks and Inquisitions , and other carnal weapons you have used to propagate your Gospel , shall rise up in Judgement against you ; then will ye cry to the Rocks , and the Mountains to fall upon you , to hide you from the Wrath of the Lamb . And now is the wondrfull day at hand , wherein the Wolves , Bears , and Lions shall be afraid and seek to hide themselves from the presence of the Lamb . Consider this all ye hirelings , that rend and tear , and make a prey upon the innocent lambs of Christ for to serve your own bellies , and covetous , unchristian , greedy desires , how greatly do you dishonour the name of Christ , in calling your selves his Ministers ? have not you and all your Brethren , the Popish Christians in whole Christendome sent an ill savour throughout the Nations and Regions round about you ? yea and many of those you count heathens shal rise up in judgment against you , even against you who have the sheeps cloathing , the Prophets words , Christs vvords , the Apostles words , but inwardly ravened from the Spirit of God in your selves , and so have appeared devouring wolves , and destroyers of the sheeps life , & scatterers of the flock of God , hear the Word of the Lord by the mouth of his Prophet Ezekiel against such as you , Wo be to the Shepherds of Israel , that do feed themselves , should not the shepherds feed the flocks ? ye eat the fat , and ye cloth you with the wool , ye kill them that are fed , but ye feed not the flock ; the diseased haue ye not strengthened , neither have ye healed that which was sick , neither have ye bound up that which was broken , neither have ye brought again that which was driven away , neither have ye sought that which was lost , but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them , &c. Ezech. ch. 34. There is much in these words ; and this hath been your work , as fully and as truly as ever it was the false shepherds work in the time of the Prophet Ezechiel , and now is the Lord manifestly appearing to be against ye shepherds , and requiring his flock at your hand , and is causing you to cease from feeding his flock , and also from feeding your selves of his flock , and delivering them from your mouths , and gathering them from all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day , according to Ezechiels Prophesie ; and this is the Lords own work , in this his mighty day , and all the hirelings and wolvish Shepherds in whole Christendome shall not be able to withstand and hinder the accomplishing , and fulfilling of this the Lords purpose , though Gog and Magog , beast and false prophet , ioyn together ; yet the Lamb and the Saints shall have the victorie , and the Plagues upon the Seat of the great Whore shall be poured , and the tongue of the Egyptian sea shall be dryed up , and the waters which hath overflowed the highest Mountain shall abate and be dried up , and the ship-masters , the Parish-masters trade shall fail : And thou O Mount Seir , because thou hast had a perpetuall hatred , and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by force of the Sword in the time of their calamity , in the time that their iniquity had an end ; therefore as I live saith the Lord God I will prepare thee unto blood , and blood shall pursue thee , sith thou hash not-hated blood , even blood shall pursue thee , &c. This is the portion of Cain , who was a murtherer from the beginning , whose sacrifice is the fruit of that ground which is cursed , and which the dew of heaven never descended upon , nor the blessing of the most High was ever appointed for ; And out of this ground , out of this earth , in which Cain is a Vagabond , springeth and ariseth that spirit that can offer a Sacrifice , and murther when he hath done , and that this spirit is manifest in and among you the Nationall Priests is very evident , and sufficiently proved by your own fruits , acts and deeds within these few years , yea and the cry of innocent blood hath entred the ears of the Lord against you , even against you both Priests and people , who notwithstanding your pretences of worshipping God , have envy , the root of murther in your hearts , and violence in your hands , and while you regard iniquity in your hearts , your very prayers are abomination and stinks in the nostrils of the Lord . 'T is the Whore and her Merchants that ▪ thirsteth after the blood of creatures under the notion of hereticks , and that murthers men about matters of Religion ; the Christians and Christian Ministers never did so , neither did they wrestle with flesh and blood , but you and the papists are found wrestling with flesh , and destroying mens lives , and not saving them , and you shall have your reward together according to your Work . A few Queries for all that own Tythes due to the present Priesthood , and for the Priesthood that takes them to consider and answer . 1. TO vvhat end do you the people pay tithes ? and to vvhat end do you the Priests take tithes ? is your end according to the Lavv of God that gave the tithes to the first Priesthood ? then people vvhy do you not see them improved to that end ? and Priests vvhy do you not let them be improved to that end ? and vvas not the end vvherefore tithes vvas given , that the Widovvs , Strangers , and Fatherlesse might be relieved and maintained by them as vvell as the Priests ? And had not the Widovvs , Strangers , and Fatherlesse as much Right to the Tithes , as the Leviticall priests had ? and had they not their maintenance out of them , so that there need not be a beggar among them ? Was not the priests gates to stand open , that the Widovvs , Strangers and Fatherlesse might be relieved . 2. Did not that Lavv of God that gave Tithes to this end , ordain a place to put them in , a Store-house , ( into vvhich Store-house the people brought them , else they robbed God ) and vvere they not to be taken out of this Store-house , as the Widows , Strangers , Fatherlesse and Priests had need of them ? and was not this Store-house called Gods House ? read Mal. 3. 10. How comes it to passe , if not by the order of the Pope , Bishops and Cardinals , and the rest of the popish train , that there is no Store-house in whole Christendome ( so called ) to put the Tithes of the Land in , nor no Widows , Strangers and Fatherless relieved according to their necessities out of the Tithes , but pope , chief Magistrate and priests , have , and would have them all brought into their own house ? and how many of their gates stand open , that the Widows , Strangers and Fatherlesse , and poore , might passe freely in and take part of the Tithes with them ? do they not more frequently lye begging at their gates when they are shut ? and lye about the Streets begging and crying for bread , and at the Steeple-houses there is a hideous , dolefull noise for bread many times ? was it so in the time of the Law , which commanded Tithes from the people ? did not the Lord make the Tithes , give the poore , the Widows , the Strangers , the Fatherlesse , and priests also enough ? and now people that pay Tithes , and priests that receive Tithes , whom do you imitate and follow , if not the Popish train ? are not you unlike both Jews and Christians ? did the true Christians ever pay , or receive Tithes ? 3. Is not this a monstrous Priesthood , that hath rose up since the dayes of the Apostles , who denied the first priesthood , that devours and impropriates all the Tithes to themselves , and will not allow the Poore , the Widows , Strangers , and Fatherlesse any share with them of the Tithes , though they may be ready to starve for vvant of food and Raiment ? is not this monstrous priesthood in Christendom ( vvho call themselves Ministers of the Gospel ) exceedingly stained and laden with the blood of the poor , of the Widows , of the Strangers , and Fatherless ? And you the people , how can you be clear in paying your tithes to such a priesthood , that do not let their gates stand open , nor have no Store-house , nor that do not improve them to that end , that they were improved to , in the time of the Law ? are not all your Tithes given and received to a worse end , notwithstanding you say you are Christians , and live in the glorious day of the Gospel , then they were given and received in the time of the Law ? How many thousands of poore , of Widows , Strangers , of Fatherlesse , and beggars are there in thy borders , O Christendome , which want relief , which the Law of God that gave Tithes to the Priesthood which God ordained , provided for , by the Tithes that were brought into the Store-house ? Why must a greedy , covetous , proud priesthood , that is not like the priesthood under the Law , nor the Ministers of the Gospel , swallow down , and devour , and treasure up to themselves , which belongs no more to them , then to the Widows , Strangers , and Fatherless ? Put the Popes Lavv aside , the Magistrates of England , and if Tithes and priesthood must stand , let them stand according to the Lavv of God by Moses , and not according to the Papists Law , and covetous priests desires . 4. Did not the Pope , and the false Church ( which hath risen since the dayes of the Apostles ) who invented Tithes for the maintenance of his Ministers , exclude and shut out the poore , the Fatherlesse , the Widows , and Strangers from having a share with him and his priests of the Tithes ? and people why do you love to uphold a popish invention , and the false Churches Synodicall Decrees , Edicts and Ordinances ? and is not this one popish Decree , that Tithes are due to God and holy Church ? do you not know what God the Pope and papists mean ? and what , and where the Holy Church is , that Tithes are due to , by his , or their Decree ? is not their God their belly , and their glory their shame , and their Holy Church a Cage of unclean birds , a den of Idolaters , which murthers , prisons , racketh and tortureth and persecuteth those that are indeed the members of the Holy Church ( which is in God ) and did ever the ministers of Christ , who were members of the Holy Church , preach up Tithes to be due to them , or covet after them , or receive any of them ? did they not on the contrary preach against Tithes and deny them , and the priesthood that received Tithes , and the Law that gave Tithes they denied also , and witnessed the change of the Law and priesthood both ? as in the 7. of Pauls Epistle to the Hebrews ; Then are not those priests that preach for Tithes , and plead for Tithes , opposers of the true Ministers of Christ , and their Doctrine , and upholders of the Pope , Papists and their Decrees , and Orders ? 5. Did not Christ Jesus who is the substance of all the Mosaicall administrations send forth his Ministers freely , saying to them , Freely ye have received , freely give ? did ever Christ bid them demand Tithes from the people they preached to ? then surely they did never sue them at the Law for that they never demanded of them , as those that call themselves the Ministers of Christ do now in this age , who have been rifling mens houses and fields for Tithes ; People do you not believe that it is a great abomination and blasphemy against the Lord for such to call themselves the ministers of Christ ? is not Christs glorious Gospel of God dishonoured by them ? is not the Pope that ordered Tithes to be paid to the Priests , Bishops and Clergy men onely , and that excluded the poore from having part of the Tithes , more honoured and obeyed then Christ , by all the Tithe-mongers and hirelings in Christendome , and people that own them ? Christ said , Freely you have received freel● give . The Pope and Popish Clergy said , and saith , We have not received freely , and we will not , nor cannot give freely ; and if people will not give us freely , we will compell them by force and cruelty ; and whose Ministers are such ? and whose Commands and Ordinances do such obey , Christs or the Popes ? hath not your fruits and works answered already , that the Popes Command and Order is preferred above Christs , and obeyed rather then Christs Command and Order ? Did not Christ say , Into whatsoever Town or City you enter , enquire who in it is worthy , and there abide till ye go thence , &c. this he spake to them which he sent forth . Did he ever send his Ministers into any Town , City or Countrey , to enquire how much money by the year they would give them to preach to them , and to enquire after Tithes , and Augmentations and such like , and to agree and make bargains with people for a 100. or 200 l. by the year ? if Christ sent any such Ministers forth , and if the true Christians ever owned such Ministers , priests and people , answer and declare when , till then we shall reckon you with the popish priests , and Papists . This following Letter containing the substance of the Dispute , was given into the hands of William Cooper about the middle of the third Month , enclosed with some Directions for him to convey it to the rest of his Brethren which were at the Dispute , if peradventure they might be shewed their blindness and ignorance in the things of God ; and William Cooper soon after sent word by one of his Communicants , That we should have a speedy Answer ; but no Answer hath appeared : And now therefore are they further examined , and their practices and manners of Worship more fully enquired into in the former Treatise ; And in both all people may see that are not quite blind , how that much and many relicks of Popery are yet standing chiefly in the Presbyterian Churches , so called , and that the true Christian life and primitive Church-Order is not among them . And if they can say otherwise , let them lay aside that wisdom which man teacheth , and which they have learn'd at School by natural Education , and answer without logical Arguments , in plainness , according to the holy Scriptures . Friends , YOU that profess your selves to be Ministers of Christ , and have put on the sheeps clothing , but are erred from the spirit of the Lord ; the time of tryal is now come , wherein secret things are brought to light , and the great Mystery of Babylon is discovered , and all false Ministers are made manifest , and the judgement of the great Whore is come , and your judgement also that hath drunk her Cup : And now something is upon me as to mind you of , and to lay something of your own ignorance and weakness before you , which appeared in you at that time of the Dispute in the Bridge-House , to the intent that you , and the people that are under your Ministry may come to see the error of your ways , and may be converted to God , and live ; for it truly appears that death reigns in you , and over you , and the fruits and effects thereof doth spring from you , and the cursed Tree is yet standing that brings forth the branches of darkness , of unbelief , and of great ignorance : and the Sword of the Lord , which is the words of his mouth , will utterly slay you . And whereas you asked , If we owned you to be Ministers of Christ : Unto which in part we answered , and I do here more plainly testifie , No , we cannot own you to be Ministers of Christ , nor sent of him , for we know the contrary , because you are different and contrary to the Ministers of Christ that were in the dayes of the Apostles , in Call , in Practice , and Conversation ; in Maintenance , and in your Fruits and Effects ; in all these things we say , and can prove , that you are not according , but different and contrary to the Apostles and Ministers of the true Churches before the Apostacy ; and therefore I hereby certifie you , That we ( to wit ) the People of God called Quakers , do not own you as the Ministers of Christ , but do look upon you to be Deceivers and false Teachers , and of Antichrist , and your fruits and works doth manifest it , and thereby do we know you not to be the Ministers of Christ , but false Teachers , as I have said . And whereas you affirmed your selves to be Ministers of Christ , and went about to prove it by your Arguments of invented Logick , and the substance and intent of your first Argument was , Those that have the Characters and Signs upon them spoken of in 1 Tim. 3. are Ministers of Christ ; but you have those Signs and Characters upon you , and therefore , You are Ministers of Christ . Ans. Now this Scripture which you have mentioned for proof of your Ministry , when you are truly laid to the line and measure thereof , will prove that you are not true Ministers , for you are not thus qualified in your Spirits and Conversation , as this Scripture doth signifie , but the contrary fruits and effects doth appear from you , then is set down in this Scripture ; Are you blameless in your conversations ? And are you sober and of good behaviour , and given to Hospitality , and apt to teach ? And are you not given to Wine and filthy Lucre ? And are you patient , not brawlers nor covetous ? And are you not lifted up with pride ? And are you of good report ? And do you hold the mysterie of faith in a pure conscience ? These things were required to be in the Ministers of Christ ; and have you these characters ? and are you such as is here spoken of ? And have you these fruits and marke upon you ? now are you to be tried , and and I am searching your own proof , whether it holds sound to confirm that for which you brought it ? No it is manifest by your fruits according to your own proof , that you are men of another generation , and are bringing forth fruits and works clean contrary to them , whom the Apostle allows of for Ministers ; For you are not blamelesse , nor sober , nor of good behaviour , for you are guilty of the pride and vanity of this world , and live in envy and bitternesse , and so not blamelesse , nor sober , nor of good behaviour , neither apt to teach ; for you want the Spirit , that was in the Apostles , and you cannot speak as that Spirit gives you utterance , but you speak from humane study , and what you have gathered from other mens works , and many of you are given to wine and strong drink , and are greedy of filthy lucre , and sue men at Law for wages , and remove from one place to another for more means , and for greater hire , and this is covetousnesse and greedinesse of filthy lucre , which you ( to wit , genrally the Priests ) are known to be guilty of through the whole Land ; and ye have an ill report , to be covetous men , and proud men , and ambitious , and self-seeking men , this report you have of many that are without , and the poore unconverted people they know you to be guilty of these things ; and your Consciences are not pure , neither do ye hold the mysterie of faith in it ; but your consciences are defiled with the evil and sinfull practises of this wicked world ; and that faith that you professe is not the true faith that the Apostles had , which gave them victory over the world , and over all sinne ; for you are in the pollutions of the world , unsanctified , and the guilt of sinne lies upon you ; these things are true , as the Witness in your own consciences may testifie● so that your own proof and evidence hath condemned you , and the Scripture by which you thought to prove your selves Ministers of Christ , it hath turn'd upon your own heads , and manifested the contrary , and though you have said , you were qualified according to that Scripture , and therefore you were called into the mini●st● , and were the true Ministers , yet the contrary is discovered , and that you are qualified by a contrary spirit and have the marks and characters upon you , not of the true ministers of Christ , but of 〈◊〉 spoken of in 2 Tim. 3. and according to that sort of false Teachers are you qualified ; and therefore in Practice and conversation you do not agree with the Apostles , but are different and contrary to them , and are according to the false Teachers , and false Apostles , and with them you do agree in spirit and in practice in many things . And as to your call to the Ministry , you are not able to make any good proof thereof at all , nor did not at that time , but some of them did deny , that the anointing , the unction of the holy Spirit , was necessary unto the Ministry ; and this was the Argument , That all things were mentioned for the qualification of a Minister , in that 1 Tim. 3. but the holy unction is not mentioned ; therefore , the unction of the spirit is not necessary to the Ministry . Answer , Something was spoken to this before , as to shew the ignorance of it , and the wickednesse of this Argument ; and some of you were partly ashamed of it your selves ; and had not the man and you been vvholly ignorant and blind , this would never have proceeded from amongst you ; and are you like to be Ministers of Christ , who hath asserted , That the spirit of God , and the anointing is not necessary to the ministry ? Was ever the like ignorance uttered by any before you ? even your Fathers , the Friars at Rome would be ashamed of you herein , to utter such dark and ignorant assertions . Is this your Learning , and your wise Logick , to prove the anointing unnecessary to the ministry ? and such ministers we believe are you that have not the holy unction of the spirit , but are ministers of the letter , and by the will of man , and not by the spirit , nor of the spirit , and so your call is not the same as was the Apostles , but contrary to them and different from them ; so that we cannot own you to be ministers of Christ ; for ye are different and contrary to them both in your call , and in your conversations . And though you seemed to deny to be made ministers by your Learning and Education , yet it is manifest that through that , you received the ministry , through the attainments of such Arts and Sciences , and at last you came to attain to the Office of Ministers as you say ; and it was not by the call of the spirit , nor by the gift of the holy Ghost , for that you have in part denied , and saith the unction is not necessary to the Ministry ; so it is but your hypocrisie to deny that you are made Ministers by your natural learning ; for we know that thereby onely , and without the Gift of the Holy Ghost , did you attain to that Ministry which now you hold , cannot convert sinners to God , nor turn the wicked from his evil way ; for it answers not the testimony of God in people , but people remains always blind and ignorant under it ; and you go on dreaming for carnal ends unto your selves , seeking for your hire , and for your gain , and therefore we do deny that you are true Ministers of Christ , for you can neither prove that you are so , neither doth your fruits and works prove it , but the contrary is manifest . And whereas you further said , The gift of the holy spirit is not sufficient to make a Minister ; This is also your ignorance ; for as I said , they also have receiv'd the spirit , have received the fruits thereof ; and the Apostle saith , As every one hath received the gift of the spirit , so he may administer of the same to another ; & who have received the spirit of Christ , they are Christs ; and if any man have not that spirit , such are none of his , but how full of confusion are you ? I cannot but mind you of it ; Some time you say , the Spirit is not necessary to the Ministry ; and again you say , The spirit alone is not sufficient to make a Minister ; and here is Babylons stuff ( Confusion ) brought forth by you her Merchants , and such as these hath deceived the souls of men , one saying one thing , and others another , and thus is your kingdom divided , and that is a sign that it cannot stand , but it must fall when the kingdoms of this World becomes the Kingdom of Christ . And whereas you affirmed , One may be called into the Ministry by Christ , and yet at the same time be under the power of the Devil , and the self-same man at the very same time may be a Disciple of Christ , and yet a Devil . Ans. I cannot but mind you of your ignorance , and return your words to you again ; For a man that is under the power of the Devil , he is the servant of the Devil , and not Christs servant ; and that man that is a Disciple of Christ , and learns of him , is a child of God , and not of the Devil ; for the Devil is out of truth , and so are all that are under his power , but the Disciple of Christ is in the truth , and learns of Christ who is truth ; and though you would seem to prove these things by Judas & Peter , yet as for Judas he turned from Christ , and against him , and the Devil entered into him , and he lost the power of God , and erred from it , and then he was a Devil , and a betrayer of the just ; but whilst he followed Christ , and was faithful in his Ministry , he was not a Devil : Neither was Peter Satan , he that was Christ's Disciple ; but he that savoured the things that was of man , and not the things of God , and he that denied Christ , he was the Satan ; for the Disciple of Christ , and Satan , are two , and not one ; they are contrary , and not the same , though you in your ignorance would make them one ; but ye know not of what spirit ye are of , nor whose work you are doing . And whereas you held it forth , That you had the fruits of the spirit , because you shew forth faith and repentance , therefore , &c. Now I did , and do deny that you shew forth faith and repentance ; for your Works doth manifest the contrary ; And to prove that you have repentante , you say you detest all sin , and therefore , &c. Now this I did , and do deny again , and do assert the contrary , and thus I prove it , Whosoever breaks the commands of Christ , and acts those things which he cryed wo against , & those things which the holy Prophets cryed against , they do not detest all sin ; but thus you do , ( to wit ) you that profess your selves to be Ministers , you act those things which Christ forbad , & which the holy Prophets cryed against . therefore you do not detest all sin , and so have not the fruits and marks of the Holy Ghost upon you , that you act these things that Christ forbad , and which the Prophets cryed against ; it is plainly manifest Christ forbad his Ministers to be called of men Masters , but you are called Masters ; & Christ cryed wo against them that loved the uppermost Rooms , and the chief Seats , & greetings in the Markets , and these things are you guilty of . And the holy Prophets cryed against them that preached for hire , and divined for money , and against them that fed themselves with the fat , and clothed themselves with the Wool , and did not feed the flock ; and these things you are guilty of ; and thus it is manifest you do not detest all sin , but lives in it ; for in the fruits and works of the flesh you do abound , in pride and covetousness , in wrath and bitterness , and in many other things , whereby it is clearly manifest that you have not your own noted signs of the holy spirit upon you , and so we cannot own you , but must deny you to be the Ministers of Christ : And as for your carriages and proceedings at that Dispute , they were not agreeing with the spirit of truth , for you were wild , and vain , and scornful , which practices becomes not Christs Ministers : And why did you run so soon away ? Why had not you longer patience for the tryal of all things ? Were you afraid to be discovered , and that your shame should have appeared ? Were you hit upon your sore , which made you fling away so suddenly , that you could not abide any longer . Many things more I had to have spoken , if you had not left us in that manner , which a shame unto your selves , and to your companie who used such wildness and violence , and laid violent hands upon me , thrusting me forth , and threatning of us with Constables , and these things ought not to have been , nor had you been Ministers of Christ would they have been , but your fruits makes you manifest , and by your fruits we know you , as Christ hath told us ; for your fruits are the fruits of unrighteousness and not the fruits of the holy Spirit of the Lord , which fruits are pure and peaceable , but your fruits are otherwise , to wit , the fruits of the spirit of this world that lies in wickedness , And whereas you accused us to be Jesuites or such like ; these were your false accusations , and we see you to be nearer to agreement with the Jesuites then we are , and the Church of Rome is your Mother , & from her you have descended in your Call and in your Maintenance , and in the most part of your worship and practices , therefore come , let 's reason with you , Had not you ( the Professed Ministers of England ) this way of making Ministers at Schools and Colledges , & by natural learning , from the Church of Rome ? Was not she the first that instituted these Colledges , & gave the maintenance to them , and gave all these names to Schollers , as Batchellour of Arts , and Master of Arts , Batchellour of Divinity , and such like names , which yet remains amongst you , the originall of which came from the Church of Rome ? and was first set up in England by the Whores Authority . Did these things come from the Church of Christ , or was there such names amongst Christs true Ministers ? or have not you received these things and wayes from the Whore , and drunken her cup ? this way of making ministers have you had from the Whore of Rome ; and from whence had you this way of maintenance in your ministry , by Tithes and gleab-lands , and Easter reckonings , and so much a year out of your Parish ? did not all this proceed out of the Church of Rome , and was not in the day of the Apostles , nor practised by Christs ministers , but from the Whore you have had this also ? this way of being maintained , and suing people at the Law for your Tithes and for your money , Christs ministers never did thus , but the Churh of Rome hath been the originall of all these things and practises ; and from whence had you this practice of sprinkling infants , and calling it the Baptisme into the faith , and into the visible church ? did not this come from Rome ? and have not you received it from thence ? if there was any such Institution or Practice amongst the Apostles prove it by Scripture , else we will not believe you , but must tell you the originall of this came from Rome , and you have drunken the Whores cup , and been made drunk thereby ; & so now when we examine you throughly in your wayes and practices , we find you agreeing with the Jesuites in many things ; and while you accuse others your selves are guilty ; and now people begins to see your shame , and you cannot hide it , for the witness is risen in people , and the seed of God is coming forth , which tramples over and treads down the false church , and all her false ordinances and institutions , and her cup must be broken to pieces , and she shall no more make the Nations drunk ; and as for you false ministers , though you pray and preach , and cry against Heresie and Error , and would beg Laws to suppresse it , as ye say ; yet your selves are found guilty of the error , and you want the spirit of truth to guide you ; and your own hearts are not cleansed , and then how can you cleanse others ? and that which you call error and heresie is truth ; for your judgements are corrupted , and your eye is blind , and what you know , you know naturally , and not by the teachings of the spirit of God , but by Traditions , and by the words of other men without you , and the holy anointing in your own selves , you know not ; for you have not received it ; And whereas you queried whether the Scriptures were the word of God and the rule of life I do now answer : The Scriptures were given forth by the spirit of God , and are the words of God , & the word was in them that gave them forth , and Christ is that word , and the Scriptures testifie of him , & the Scriptures are not the rule of life , but the spirit that gave them forth , that is the rule to the children of God ; for as many as are the sons of God are led by the spirit of God , and them that walk according to that rule of the spirit peace is upon them , and so it is the spirit of God that gave forth the Scriptures ; that is , the rule of life , and not the Scriptures ; yet where the spirit is the rule , it leadeth up according to the Scriptures in the fulfilling of them ; and as for ye hypocrites who do profess the Scriptures to be your rule , and yet walks contrary to the Scriptures , your own rule condemns you , and out of your own mouths will the Lord judge you . Is the Scripture your rule to preach for hire , and to have so much a year for preaching , and if any will not pay them to sue them at the Law , and take their goods by violence , and to cast their bodies into prison ? this is the practice of many ministers in this nation ; but what rule in all the Scripture have you for these things , or vvhat example , saving from the false Prophets , false Apostles ? and vvhat rule have you in all the Scriptures for sprinkling of infants , and calling it Baptisme into the faith ? and what rule have you to take Tithes ? and are not you hypocrites to professe the Scriptures to be your rule and yet act these things which the Scripture neither gives Commandment nor example for , but the rather bears witness against ? but who hath the spirit , and walks by that rule , sees you , and judges you who are out of the life of the Scriptures , in the life that is contrary , and with the spirit of God are you reproved , in all your wayes of darknesse and error . And whereas you queried concerning the light within , we do say , that Christ the second A●am lighteneth all mankind that be come into the world ; and this light John bare witness of , and it shined in darkness , and the darkness comprehended it not , and that was it that enlightened every man that cometh into the world ; and this light brings all to receive Christ that doth believe , and they that believe not , this light is their condemnation ; and though you stumble at this stumbling stone , as your Fathers the Jews did ; yet unto us that do believe , Christ the light of the world is precious , and all that comes to the knowledge of God , must come to the true knowledge by the light that shines 〈…〉 hearts ; for it is the light that shines in the heart , that gives the knowledge of God ; and although you wise builders do stumble at the foundation ; yet it will break you to pieces ; and confound you utterly ; for the light is risen in the hearts of many , which light gives them the knowledge of God , and the knowledge of you , and all your false wayes of error , and brings men to depart from them all , and to follow the Lord in righteousness , and so every man is lightened , that they may believe ; and they that believe , and walk in the light shall be saved ; but they that believe not , but hate the light , shall be condemned , and this is their condemnation , that light is come into the world and into their hearts ; and as for you , you are but shallow men ; for you want the knowledge of God , and truth stands over you , though you oppose it , and it will grow to a Mountain , where all the Righteous shall be refreshed ; and the Lord is begun to work in the earth , he hath set his hand to pull down Babylon , and there shall not one stone be left upon another , and all her Merchandise shall fail , and her strong holds shall be broken down , and all her Merchants shall howl and lament ; therefore now consider it ye Leaders of the people , the day of the visitation is now , but it will suddenly be shut up , with the night of darkness upon you , and you will be wounded , and you can never be healed , you will be ruined , and can never be revived ; This is from a lover of your Souls , EDWARD BURROUGH . Something after . AND now you Priests , the black Clergy of England , who count your selves Orthodox men , sound , able Ministers of the Gospell of Christ , know and consider , and let it be known to , and considred by all people , that we slander you not , nor do you no wrong in disowning you to be the Ministers of Christ , and in comparing you to the black , bloody , Popish trait , your mother-Church ; nor in comparing you with the false Prophets , idle shepbeards of Israel , and the deceivers and false teachers which crept in , in the days of the Apostles , which since hath overspread the Nations ; for if ever there were a company of Priests that were like a troop of robbers , and that murthered with consent , and that preached for hire , and divined for money , and that sought their gain from their quarter , sed themselves with the fat , and cloathed themselves with the wool , and that cared not naturally for the flock , but for the fleece , and that taught for filthy lucre , and that said , Thus saith the Lord ; when the Lords voice they never heard ; and that had stolen then Neighbours words , and that run before they were sent , and that did not profit the people at all ; I say , if ever there was such Priests and Teachers , as certainly there was in the Prophets days , and Apostles days , such assuredly in thee , oh England , doth exceedingly abouned , as by the fruits in every Conntry , City , Town , and Village most evidently appeareth , in which wickedness is grown so exceeding high , and the envy & offering of Cain , in priests & people is so strong , and the Jewish blind zeal ' so fierce , and the cry of the rude multitude , Away with him , Away with him , so loud , loud , and many Pilates through importunity of the priests , and cry of the multitude , so ready to deliver the innocent into the hands of such who loves Barrabas the murtherer better then he that came to save mens lives , and not to destroy them ; and better then his Ministers , whole weapons were never carnal , as Tucks , Rapiers , Staves and Canes , which hath been the weapons of thirty English priests already recorded within this seven or eight years , who have not onely incensed and stirred up the Magistrates and people to persecute , but hath shed blood , beat and bruised many themselves , one of which number was ( and is still for ought I know ) priest Griffin of Bread street in London , who st●uck one Robert Ingram sorely over the head with a Kane , many blows ; and by means of such priests the Prophet Isaiah call'd greedy dumb dogs , and that prepared war against such as could not put into their mouths , hath about two thousand of the the people of God suffered within this seven or eight years twenty six hath been murthered & imprisoned till death , and some hundreds suffered long imprisonments in filthy , unwholsome places , and cruel , inhumane usage therein by wicked , bloody Goalers , Thieves , Murtherers , and Felons , among which they have been cast ; some others hath been robbed and spoiled of their goods for tythes , to the value of some thousands of pounds , sometimes five , six , seven , or eight times the value of what was demanded by the hi●eling Priest and Impropriator , to the ruine and destroying of many families , widows and fatherless , ( as to the outward ) in taking away their wearing cloath's , bedding , pots , dishes , and kettles , ( sometimes all was too little ) seizing sometimes 100 l. worth of goods for one years tythes , valued at six pounds , and body also imprison●● : Oh horrible Minist●y ! a worse was never in any generation , I do believe , especially in times wherein the cry of Reformation hath been so loud , and liberty of conscience pretended ; Oh! how is it that people are so blind and sottish as to cou●● greedy Hirelings ( who are like to leave their Names upon record as a stink and a wand●● to the next generation ) Christian Ministers ; Christian Ministers were no sigh●ers , nor strikers , nor covetous , nor greedy of silthy lucre , nor demanders of Tythes from the people , nor suers at law for the Tythes ; if they were , you priests and people produce the chapter and verse that must prove it ; you have proved your selves such , and we can ●●sily prove , and have proved , that you are not like the Ministers of Christ , for the Ministers of Christ in the primitive church , bore their testimony against Tythes , which God commanded to be paid to the first priesthood ; and many Saints , Martyrs , and Ministers of Christ of later times mentioned in Fox's Histories , called , The Book of Martyrs , have , or did faithfully in their measure bear their testimony unto death against the Tythes which the Pope and his Train had invented and set up since the Apostles days , which at this day yet stands as a main prop and upholder of a proud , high minded , self-seeking , covetous ignorant , Popish Clergy here in England , against which , and whom , we also bear our testimony , which hath already been sealed with much blood within these few years . And if there be any honest , tender hearted men amongst the Priests , which really desires and endeavours to have a conscience void of offence towards God , and towards 〈◊〉 let such come out from amongst them , and bear their testimony against them that hath committed such horrible things in the Land , and utterly deny them , and disown them , else the best of them will be but as a B●yar , and the most upright as a Thorn-Hedge , and a cons●ne to wickedness will be found in their hearts in the day of the Lord ; therefore accept the let no people count some Priests better then other Priests , for there is little difference between those that murther , and those that consent to murther ; those that rob , and those ●hat consent to robbery ; those that persecute , and those that consent to persecution , and their reward will be alike at that day which God hath appointed to judge the Secrets of all 〈◊〉 by the Man Christ Jesus . W. S. The End . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A70985e-30 * That sign of long Reig * I have seen such 
A61594	----	A reply to Mr. J.S. his 3d. appendix containing some animadversions on the book entituled, A rational account of the grounds of Protestant religion. By Ed. Stillingfleet B.D. Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. 1666 Approx. 147 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 64 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A61594 Wing S5630 ESTC R34612 99834099 99834099 38584 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A61594) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 38584) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2063:36) A reply to Mr. J.S. his 3d. appendix containing some animadversions on the book entituled, A rational account of the grounds of Protestant religion. By Ed. Stillingfleet B.D. Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. [2], 116, [8] p. printed by R.W. for Henry Mortlock at the sign of the Phœnix in St. Paul's Church-yard near the little North-door, London : 1666. A reply to: Sergeant, John. Sure-footing in Christianity. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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APPENDIX , Containing some Animadversions ON THE BOOK ENTITULED , A RATIONAL ACCOUNT of the Grounds of PROTESTANT RELIGION . By Ed. Stillingfleet B. D. London , Printed by R. W. for Henry Mortlock at the Sign of the Phoenix in St. Pauls Church-yard near the little North-door . 1666. An Appendix to the RULE of FAITH . To his honoured Friend Mr. John Tillotson . SIR , AS soon as I understood your intentions to answer Mr. Serjeant , I could not but rejoyce on his behalf , as well as on the truths and your own . For I have that real kindness for him , that I heartily wish him that reason and science he pretends to ; which I could not but despair of his attaining , unless he were undeceived in that monstrous opinion he hath of himself and his undertakings . And I knew no person more fit then you , to let him understand the tr̄uth and himself together . In which , your performances have been so clear and satisfactory , that I hope Mr. Serjeant in stead of another letter of directions to his Answerer , will write you one of thanks , for the reason and kindness you have shewed him throughout your Book . Unless it fares with you , as it hath done with some other Adversaries of theirs , that their civility hath been interpreted as an argument of their uncertainty , and their own confidence cried up for a demonstration . In which sense only I shall grant our Protestant Writer● to build on uncertainties , and Mr. White and Mr. Serjeant to be the great Demonstrators of this age . If their own reason had been as severe as the censures at Rome against them , they had saved us the labour of any answer , and would have found out their own Sophistry without a confutation . But the least thing we can imagine by their excessive confidence , is , that they are deceived themselves ; and therefore i● is a part of charity to them as well a● justice to the truth , to let the world ●e , that big words are quite another ●ing from science , and a strong pre●mption from a regular demonstra●on . As to which , no more need to ●ve been said , than what you have al●ady done , if Mr. Serjeant had not ●ought it an accession to the glory of ●s atchievements , to lead two Pages ●f my book in triumph after him . I ●nfess I was somewhat surprised to see person who would be noted for his ●lour in assaulting Protestant Writers , ●eal so behind the main bulk and design ●f my Book , and when he had gotten ●o single pages by themselves , fall ●pon them with as much pomp and ●tentation , as if he had attacqu'd the ●hole . And this must be noised abroad an Answer to me , by the same figure ●at his arguments are called demon●rations , which is by an Hyperbole un● for any , but such who never flag be●w the sphere of Science in their own ●dgements , though they seem not to ●ome near it in others . Yet since ●r . Serjeant is not only pleased to ●ncern himself so far as to answer that ●rt of my Book relating to oral tradition , but in most express terms t● challenge me to reply to him , he ma● now see ( assoon as I could get any liberty from greater imployments ) ho● ready I am to give him all reasonabl● satisfaction . And in the first place return him thanks for the weapon h● hath made choice of , viz. that of re●son ; there being no other , I desire t● make use of in managing this deba● between us : and I hope he will find much civility towards him througho● this discourse , as he exptesses towar● me in the entrance to his ; if that m● be accounted any real civility which intended meerly out of design wi● the greater advantage to disparage t● cause I have undertaken , and yet ● no reason to repent of . If in his curs● view of two chapters of my Book he h● ( as he saith ) quite lost me , he had no ca● to be troubled for it , if he had fou● far more excellent persons , such Dr. Hammond , and the Dissuader , a● Dr. Pierce instead of me . But to sure he intends not this in honour any of us , but by way of a comm● reproach to us all , as though we did talk out of nature or things , but wo● and imagination . I could heartily have wished Mr. S. would have cropt so much of the victory due to anothers learning and industry , as to have shewed me one proposition in those discourses , which a rational understanding that would be true to it self , could not settle or rely on ; but if such insinuations as these must pass for answers , I must needs say , I judge Mr. S. equally happy in confuting our grounds , and in demonstrating his own ; in both which , his greatest strength lies in the self-evidence of his bare affirmations . But it seems he is willing to resign the glory of this Victory to the judicious author of Labyrinthus Cantuariensis , or to some others for him ; and when they have once obtained it , I shall not envy them the honour of it . And I suppose those persons , whoever they are , may be able by this time , to tell Mr. S. it is an easier matter to talk of Victories than to get them . But if they do no more in the whole , than Mr. S. hath done for his share , they will triumph nowhere , but where they conquer , viz. in their own fancies and imaginations . Therefore leaving them to their silent conquests , and as yet , unheard of Victories , we come to Mr. S. who so liberally proclaims his own in the point of oral Tradition . Which ( in a phrase scarce heard of in our language before ) is the Post , he tells us , he hath taken upon him to explicate further and defend . What the explicating a Post means , I as little understand , as I do the force of his demonstrations ; but this , and many other such uncouth forms of speech , up and down in his Book , ( which make his style so smooth and easie ) are I suppose intended for embellishments of our tongue , and as helps to sure-speaking , as his whole Book is designed for sure-footing . But letting him enjoy the pleasure and felicity of his own , expressions , I come to consider the matter in debate between us . And his first controversie with me , is , for opposing the infallibility of oral tradition , to doctrinal infallibility in Pope and Councils . A controversie fitter to be debated among themselves , than between him and me : for is any thing more notorious , than that Infallibility is by the far greatest part of Romanists attributed to the present Church in teaching and delivering matters of faith , not by vertue of any oral tradition , but the immediate assistance of the Holy Ghost : and that this is made by them the only ground of divine faith ? For which Mr. S. may if he please , consult his judicious author of Labyrinthus Cantuariensis , or any other of their present Writers , except Mr. White and himself . He need not therefore have been to seek for the meaning of this doctrinal infallibility as opposed to traditionary , if he had not either been ignorant of the opinion of their own Writers , or notoriously dissembled it . For this infallibility is not attributed to the Rulers of the Church , meerly as Doctors or Scholars , but as the representative Church whose office it is to deliver all matters of faith by way of an infallible testimony to every age , and thereby to afford a sufficient foundation for divine faith . But Mr. S. attributes no such infallibility to the representative Church , as teaching the rest , but derives their infallibility from such grounds as are common to all parts of the essential Church . Wherein he apparently opposes himself to the whole current of their own authors , whe resolve all faith into the immediate assistance of the Holy Ghost , without which they assert there could be no infallibility at all in tradition or any thing else ; and therefore these opinions are as opposite to each other as may be . For such an infallibility is not attributed by them to the teachers of the Church , meerly on some signal occasions , as Mr. S. seems to suppose , when they are to explain new matters of faith ; but it is made by them to be as necessary as believing it self , because thereby the only sure foundation of faith is laid , and therefore it is very evident they make it proper to the Church in all ages : Or else in some age of the Church men were destitute of sufficient grounds of faith . For they by no means think it a sufficient foundation for faith , that one age of the Church could not conspire to deceive another ; for this they will tell him at most is but a humane faith ; but that Christ by his promise hath assured the Church that there shall never be wanting in it the infallible assistance of his Holy Spirit , whereby they shall infallibly teach & deliver all matters of faith . And if this be not their opinion , let them speak to the contrary , which if they do , I am sure they must retract their most elaborate discourses about the resolution of faith written by the greatest Artists among them . Let Mr. S. then judge who it is that stumbles at the Threshold : but of this difference among them more afterwards . By this it appears it was not on any mistake that I remained unsatisfied in the Question I asked , Whether am I bound to believe what the present Church delivers to be Infallible ? to which Mr. S. answers , I understand him not . My reply shall be only that of a great Lawyers in a like case , I cannot help that . I am sure my words are intelligible enough ; for I take infallible there as he takes it himself , for infallibly true ; although I deny not the word to be improperly used in reference to things ; and that for the reason given by him , because fallibility and infallibility belong to the knowing power , or the persons that have it , and not to the object . But we are often put to the use of that word in a sense we acknowledge improper , meerly in complyance with our Adversaries , who otherwise are apt to charge us with having only uncertainties and probabilities for our faith , if we do not use the term infallible as applyed to the truth of the thing . I am content therefore wherever , in what I have writ , he meets that term so applyed , that he take it only in his own sense , for that which is certainly true ; for I mean no more by it . And in this sense Mr. S. answers affirmatively ; and gives this account of it , not only because the present Church cannot be deceived in what the Church of the former Age believed , but because the Church in no age could conspire against her knowledge to deceive that age immediately following in matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world . The Question then is , whether this be a sufficient account for me to believe that to be certainly true , or to be the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , which the present Church delivers ? and consequently whether the resolution of faith be barely into oral tradition ? Thus we see the clear state of the Question between us . I come therefore to the vindication of those things which I had objected against this way of resolving faith into oral tradition . Three things I especially insisted on . 1. That it is inconsistent with the pretensions of the present Roman Church . 2. That it hath not been the way owned in all ages of the Christian Church . 3. That it is repugnant to common sense and experience , and that the Church of Rome hath apparently altered from what was the belief of former ages . If these three be made good , there will be no cause to glory in this last invention to support the sinking fabrick of that Church . These three then I undertake to defend against what Mr. Serjeant hath objected against them . 1. That it is contrary to the pretensions of the present Roman Church . And if it be so , there can be no reason for those who are of it , to rely upon it . For if so be that Church pretends that the obligation to faith arises from a quite different ground from this ; how can they who believe that Church infallible , venture their faith upon any other principle than what is publikly owned by her ? And whosoever thinks himself bound to believe by virtue of an infallible assistance of the present Church , doth thereby shew that his obligation doth not depend upon what was delivered by the former ages of the Church . As those who believed the Apostles were infallible in their doctrine , could not resolve their faith into the infallibility of oral tradition , but into that immediate assistance by which the Apostles spake ; and where there is a belief of a like assistance , the foundation of faith cannot lie in the indefectibility of tradition , but in that infallible Spirit which they suppose the Church to be assisted by . For supposing this oral tradition should fail , and that men might believe that it had actually failed , yet if the former supposition were true , there was sufficient ground for faith remaining still . And what assurance can any one have that the present Church delivers nothing for matter of faith but what hath been derived in every age from Christ and his Apostles , if such an infallible spirit be supposed in the present Church which was in the Apostles themselves ? For on the same reason that those who heard the Apostles were not bound to trouble themselves with the tradition of the former age ; no more ought they who believe the present Roman Church to have the same infallible assistance . They need not then enquire whether this age knew the meaning of the former , or whether one age could conspire to deceive another , or whether notwithstanding both these , errours might not come into the Church ; it is sufficient for them that the definitions of the present Church are infallible in all matters of faith . Therefore my demand was built on very good reason ; How can you assure me the present Church obliges me to believe nothing but only what , and so far as it received from the former Church ? And Mr. S's answer is far from being satisfactory , That this appears by her manifect practice , never refusing communion to any man , that could approve himself to believe all the former Age did . For this may be resolved into a principle far different from this , which is the belief of the infallibility of the present Church . For supposing that , they are not bound to enquire themselves into the reasons why the tradition could not faile in any age ; it is sufficient for them to believe the Church infallible ; and if it be so , in proposing matters of faith , it must be so in declaring what the belief of the former age was . But my demands go on , What evidence can you bring to convince me both that the Church alwayes observed this rule , and could never be deceived in it ? Which question is built on these two Principles which the infallibility of oral tradition stands on . 1. That the Church must alwayes go upon this ground . 2. That if it did so , it is impossible she should be deceived . Both which are so far from that self-evidence which Mr. Serjeant still pretends to in this way , that the Jesuits principles seem much more rational and consistent , than these do . For granting them but that one Postulatum , that there must be an inherent infallibility in the testimony of the present Church to afford sufficient foundation for divine faith , all the rest of their doctrine follows naturally from it . Whereas this new way of resolving faith is built on such suppositions , which no man well in his wits will be ready to grant . For unless it be self-evident that the Church did alwayes proceed on this ground , it cannot be self-evident that oral tradition is infallible ; because the self-evidence of this principle depends on this , that in all ages of the Church , the only rule and measure of faith was , what was delivered by oral tradition from the age foregoing . Now if it be possible that matters of faith might be conveyed in wayes quite different from this , what self-evidence can there be that the Church must alwayes proceed upon this ? Mr. S. then , must demonstrate it impossible for matters of faith to be conveyed to posterity in any other way than oral tradition ; and not only that the thing is impossible , but that the Church in all ages judged it to be so ; or else he can never make it at all evident that the Church alwayes made this her rule of faith . But if either there may be a certain conveyance of the doctrine of faith another way , viz. by writing , or that the Church might judge that way more certain , whether it were so or not , either way it will appear far enough from self-evidence that she alwayes judged of doctrines of faith , meerly by the tradition of the preceding age . If another way be granted possible , there must be clear demonstration , that the Church notwithstanding this , did never make use of it ; for if it did make use of another way of resolving faith in any age of the Church , then in that age of the Church oral tradition was not looked on as the ground of faith ; and if so , notwithstanding what ever Mr. S. can demonstrate to the contrary , that age might have believed otherwise that the immediately preceding did . For let us but suppose tha● all necessary doctrines of faith , were betimes recorded in the Church in books universally received by the Christians of the first ages ; is it no● possible that age which first embrace● these books , might deliver them to posterity as the rule of their faith and so down from one age to another and doth it not hence follow that the rule of saith is quite different from ● meer oral tradition ? Let Mr. S. the● either shew it impossible that the doctrines of faith should be written ; or that being written , they should be universally received ; or that being universally received in one age , they ●hould not be delivered to the next ; ●r being delivered to the next , those ●ooks should not be looked on as con●aining the rule of faith in them ; or ●hough they were so , yet that still oral ●adition was wholly relyed on as the ●ule of faith ; & then I shall freely grant ●●at Mr. S. hath attempted something ●●wards the proof of this new hypothe● . But as things now stand it is so far ●om being self-evident that the Church ●ath alwayes gone upon this princi●e , that we find it looked on as a great ●ovelty among them in their own ●hurch ; and it would be a rare thing ●r a new invention to have been the ●nse of the Church in all ages ; which it hath not been , the strength of it is ●ereby taken away . But let us suppose that the Church ●d proceed upon this principle , that ●thing was to be embraced , but what 〈◊〉 derived by tradition from the A●tles ; how doth it thence follow that nothing could be admitted into th● Church but what was really so derive● from them ? Do we not see in th● world at this day , that among tho● who own this principle , contradicto● propositions are believed ; and bo● sides tell us it is on this account , b● cause their doctrine was delivered ● the Apostles ? doth not the Greek Chur● profess to believe on the account tradition from the Apostles as well the Latin ? If that tradition failed the Greek Church which was preserv● in the Latin , either Mr. S. must i●stance on his own principles in th● Age which conspired to deceive t● next , or he must acknowledge t● while men own tradition they may deceived in what the foregoing ● taught them ; and consequently th● things may be admitted as doctri● coming from the Apostles which W● not so , and some which did may lost , and yet the pretence of tradit● remain still . What self-evidence t● can there be in this principle , w● two parts of the Church may b● own it , and yet believe contradicti● on the account of it ? It is then wo● our enquiring what self-evidence this is which Mr. S. speaks so much of , which is neither more nor less , but that men in all ages had eyes , ears , and other ●enses , also common reason , and as much memory as to remember their own names and frequently inculcated actions . Which ●s so very re●sonable a postulatum , that suppose none who enjoy any of these will deny it . Let us therefore see how ●he proceeds upon it . If you disprove ●his , I doubt we have lost mankind , the ●bject we speak of ; and till you disprove ●t , neither I , nor any man in his wits can doubt that this rule depending on testify●ng , that is sense on experience , can possibly ●ermit men to be deceivable . Big words in●eed : but such as evidence that all men who are in their wits do not constantly 〈◊〉 them . For I pray Sir , what doth Mr. S. think of the Greek Church ? ●ad not those in it eyes , ears and other ●●ses , as well as in the Latin ? Do not they pretond and appeal to what they ●eceived from their Fore-fathers as well ●s the Latins ? It seems then a decepti● is possible in the case of testifying , 〈◊〉 therefore this doth more than per●●● men to be decievable ; for here hath been an actual deception on one side or other . But we need not fear losing mankind in this ; for the possibility o● errour supposeth mankind to continue still ; and if we take away that , we m●● sooner lose it than by the contrary . But what repugnancy can we imagine to humane nature , that me● supposing doctrines of faith to come down from Christ or his Apostles , should yet mistake in judging what those doctrines are ? Had not men eyes and ears , and common sense in Christ and the Apostles times ? and yet we see eve● then the doctrine of Christ was mistaken ; and is it such a wonder it should be in succeeding ages ? Did not the Nazarenes mistake in point of circumcision , the Corinthians as to the resurrection , and yet the mean time agree i● this , that Christs doctrine was the rule of faith , or that they ought to believe nothing but what came from him ? Di● not the disciples themselves err , eve● while they were with Christ , and certainly had eyes and ears , an● 〈◊〉 sense as other men have , concern●●●me great articles of Christian faith , Christs passion , resurrection , and the nat● . of his Kingdom ? If then such who had the greatest opportunities imaginable , and the highest apprehensions of Christ , might so easily mistake in points of such moment , what ground have we to believe that succeeding ages should not be lyable to such misapprehensions ? And it was not meerly the want of clear divine revelation which was the cause of their mistakes ; for these things were plain enough to persons not possessed with prejudices ; but those were so strong as to make them apprehend things quite another way than they ought to do . So it was then , and so it was in succeeding ages ; for ●et Parents teach what they pleased for matters of faith , yet prejudice and ●yableness to mistake in Children might easily make them misapprehend either the nature or weight of the doctrines delivered to them . So that setting aside a certain way of recording the matters of faith in the Books of Scripture , and these preserved entire in every age , it is an easie matter to conceive how in a short time Christian Religion would have been corrupted as much as ever any was in the world . For when we consider how much notwithstanding Scripture , the pride , passion , and interests of men have endeavoured to deface Christian Religion in the world , what would not these have done if there had been no such certain rule to judge of it by ? Mr. S. imagin● himself in repub . Platonis ; but it appear● he is still in faece Romuli ; he fancies there never were , nor could be any differences among Christians ; and that all Christians made it their whole business to teach their posterity matters o● faith , and that they minded nothing in the world but the imprinting tha● on their minds that they might have i● ready for their Children ; and that al● Parents had equal skill and sidelit● in delivering matters of Religion t● their posterity . Whereas in truth w● find in the early ages of the Christia● Church several differences about matters of faith , and these differences continued to posterity , but all parties stil● pleading that their doctrine came fro● the Apostles ; & it fell out unhappily for Mr. S. that those were commonly most grossly deceived who pretended the most to oral tradition from the Apostles ; still we find the grand debate was What came from the Apostles , and what not ? whereas had tradition been so infallible a way of conveying , how could this ever have come into debate among them ? What , did not they know what their Parents taught them ? it seems they did not , or their Parents were no more agreed than themselves ; for their differences could never be ended this way . Afterwards came in for many ages such a succession of ignorance and barbarism , that Christian Religion was little minded either by Parents or Children as it ought to have been ; instead of that , some fopperies and superstitions were hugely in request , and the men who fomented these things were cryed up as great Saints and workers of Miracles . So that the miracles of S. Francis and S. Dominick were as much if not more carefully conveyed from Parents to Children in that age than those of Christ and his Apostles ; and on this account posterity must be equally bound to believe them , and have their persons in equal veneration . If men at last were grown wiser , it was because they did not believe Mr. S's . principles , that they ought to receive what was delivered by their Parents ; but they began to search and enquire into the writings of former ages , and to examine the opinions and practices of the present with those of the primitive Church , and by this means there came a restauration of Learning and Religion together . But though matters of fact be plain and evident in this case , yet M. S. will prove it impossible there should any errours come into the Christian Church ; and his main argument is this , because no age of the Church could conspire against her knowledge to deceive that age immediately following in matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world . But before I come more particularly to shew the weakness of this argument , by manifesting how errours might come into the Church without such a conspiracy as this is , I shall propound some Queries to him . 1. What age of the Church he will instance in wherein all persons who were not cast out of the Church , had the same apprehensions concerning all points of faith ? i. e. that none among them did believe more things delivered by Christ or the Apostles than others did . I am sure he can neither instance in the age of the Apostles themselves , nor in those immediately succeeding them ; unless Mr. S. the better to defend his hypothesis will question all written records because they consist of dead letters , and unsenc't characters , and wordish testimonies . Never considering that while he utters this , he writes himself ; unless he imagins there is more of life , sense and certainty in his books , than in the Scriptures or any other writing whatsoever . 2. Where there were different apprehensions in one age of the Church , whether there must not be different traditions in the next ? for as he looks on all Parents as bound to teach their Children , so on Children as bound to believe what their Parents teach them . On which supposition different traditions in the succeeding age must needs follow different apprehensions in the precedent . 3. Whether persons agreeing in the substance of doctrines may not differ in their apprehensions of the necessity of them ? As for instance , all may agree in the article of Christs descent into hell , but yet may differ in the explication of it , and in the apprehension of the necessity of it in order to salvation . So that we must not only in tradition about matters of faith enquire what was delivered , but under what notion it was delivered ; whether as an allowable opinion , or a necessary point of faith ; But if several persons , nay multitudes in the Church may have different notions as to the necessity of the same points , by what means shall we discern what was delivered as an opinion in the Church , and what as an article of faith ? But Mr. S. throughout his discourse takes it for granted that there is the same necessity of believing and delivering all things which concern the Christian doctrine ; and still supposes the same sacredness , concern , necessity , in delivering all the points in controversie between the Romanists and Us , as there was in those main articles of faith , which they and we are agreed in . Which is so extravagant a supposition that it is hard to conceive it should ever enter into the head of a person pretending to reason ; but as extravagant as it is , it is that without which his whole fabrick falls to the ground . For suppose we should grant him that the infinite errors which depend on the belief of the Christian doctrine should be of so prevalent nature with the world , that it is impossible to conceive any one age should neglect the knowing them , or conspire to deceive the next age about them ; yet what is all this to the matters in difference between us ? Will Mr. S. prove the same sacredness , necessity , concern , and miraculously attestedness ( as he phrases it ) in the Invocation of Saints , Purgatory , Transubstantiation , Supremacy , &c. as in the believing the death and resurrection of the Son of God : if he doth not prove this , he doth nothing ; for his arguments may hold for doctrines judged universally necessary , but for no other . Therefore Mr. S. hath a new task which he thought not of ; which is , to manifest that these could not be looked on as opinions , but were embraced as necessary articles of faith , For unless he proves them such , he can neither prove any obligation in Parents to teach them their Children , nor in Children to believe what their Parents taught , but only to hold them in the same degree which they did themselves . When Mr. S. will undertake to prove that the whole Church from the time of Christ did agree in the points in difference between us , as necessary articles of faith , I may more easily believe that no age could be ignorant of them , or offer to deceive the next about them . But when Mr. S. reflects on his frequent concession that there are private opinions in the Church , distinct from matters of faith , he must remember before he can bring home his grounds to the case between their Church and ours , that he must prove none of the things in debate , were ever entertained as private opinions , and that it is impossible for that which was a private opinion in one age , to become a matter of faith in the next . But because this distinction of his ruines his whole demonstration , I shall ●irst propound it in his own terms , and ●hen shew how from thence it follows , ●hat errors may come into the Church , and be entertained as matters of faith . His words are , it being evident , that we have but two wayes of ordinary know●edge , by acts of our soul , or operations ●n our body ; that is by reason and expe●ience ; the former of which belongs to ●peculators or Doctors , the second to De●iverers of what was received , or Testi●iers . And this distinction he frequent●y admits , not only in the present age of the Church , but in any ; for the same reason will hold in all . From ●ence I propose several Queries further to Mr. S. 1. If every one in the Church●ooked ●ooked on himself as bound to believe ●ust as the precedent age did , whence came any to have particular opinions of their own ? For either the Church●ad ●ad delivered her sense in that case or not ; if not , then tradition is no certain conveyer of the doctrine of Christ ; ●f she had , then those who vented private speculations were hereticks in so doing ; because they opposed that doctrine which the Church received from Christ and his Apostles . If Mr. S. replie● that private speculations are in such case● where there is no matter of faith at all he can never be able to help himsel● by that distinction in the case of hi● own Church ; for I demand , whether i● it a matter of faith , that men ought to believe oral tradition infallible ? i● not , how can men ground their faith upon it ? If it be , then either some are meer speculators in matters of faith ; or all who believe on the account o● the Popes infallibility are hereticks for so doing . 2. If there were speculators in former ages as well as this , whether did those men believe their own speculations or no ? if not , then the Father● were great Impostors who vented those speculations in the Church which they did not believe themselves ; And it i● plain Mr. S. speaks of such opinions which the asserters of , do firmly believe to be true : and if they did , then they look on themselves as bound to believe something which was not founded on the tradition of the Church ; and consequently did not own oral tradition , as the rule of faith . So that as many speculators as we find in the Church , so many testifiers we have against the in●libility of oral tradition . 3. Whether those persons who did themselves believe those opinions to be true , did not think themselves obliged to tell others they ought to believe them ; and consequently to deliver these as matters of faith to their children ? Let Mr. S. shew me any inconsequence in this ; but that it unavoidably follows upon his principles that they were bound to teach their Children what themselves received as the doctrine of Christ , and that the obligation is in all respects equal as if they had believed these things on the account of oral tradition . 4 If Children be obliged to believe what their Parents teach them for matters of faith , then upon Mr. S's . own concessions is not posterity bound to believe something which originally came not from Christ or his Apostles ? For it appears in this case , that the first rise was from a private opinion of some Doctors of the Church ; but they believing these opinions themselves , think themselves obliged to propagate them to others ; and by reason of their learning and authority , these opinions may by degrees gain a general acceptance in the ruling part of the Chur●● ; and all who believe them true , t●●●● they ought to teach them their ●●●●dren ; and Children they are to believe what their Parents teach them . Thus from Mr. S's . own principles , things that never were delivered by Christ or his Apostles , may come to be received as matters of faith in the present Church . Thus the intelligent Reader needs no bodies help but Mr. S. to let him understand how Invocation of Saints , Purgatory , Transubstantiation , &c. though never delivered either by Christ or his Apostles , may yet now be looked on as articles of saith , and yet no age of the Church conspire to deceive another . Either then Mr. S. must say , there never were any private opinators or speculators in the Church as distinct from testifiers , and then he unavoidably contradicts himself ; or he must deny that posterity is bound to believe what their fore-fathers delivered them as matters of faith ; which destroyes the force of his whole demonstration . Perhaps he will answer , that Children are not bound to believe what barely their Parents , or a●other number of persons might deliver matters of faith , but what the whole ●hurch of every age delivers . This , ●ough the only thing to be said in ●e case , yet is most unreasonable ; be●●use it runs men upon inextricable dif●culties in the way of their resolving ●ith . For suppose any Children ●ught by their Parents what they are ● believe ; Mr. S. must say , they are ●ot bound to believe them presently , ●ut to enquire whether they agree ●ith the whole Church of that Age●rst ●rst , before they can be obliged to as●nt . Which being an impossible task ●ther for Children , or men of age ● find out in the way of oral tradi●on ; this way of resolving faith , ●oth but offer a fairer pretence for ●fidelity . For we see how impossi●le it is for Mr. S. to make it appear , ●hat their Church is agreed about the ●ule of faith ; for by his own confession , ●he far greater number as speculators●ppose ●ppose the way asserted by him : how ●uch more difficult then must it needs ●e to find out what the sense of the whole essential Church is in all matters which Parents may teach their Children for doctrines of faith ? So that if Chrildren are not bound to believe what their Parents teach them , till they know they teach nothing but what the whole Church teaches , it is the most compendious way to teach them they are not bound to believe at all . But if this distinction be admitted , as Mr. S. makes much use of it , then it appears how errors may come into the Church at sirst under the notion of speculations , and by degrees to be delivered as points of faith , by which means those things may be received in the Church , for such , which were never delivered by Christ or his Apostles , and yet no age conspire to deceive the next , which was the thing to be shewed . This is one way of shewing how errors may come into the Church , without one ages conspiring to deceive the next ; but besides this , there are several others I might insist upon ; but I shall mention only two more ▪ 1. Misinterpreting the sence of Scripure . 2. Supposing it in the power o● some part of the Church to oblige the whole in matters of faith . For the first we are to consider that no imaginable account can be given either of the writing or universal reception of the books of the New Testament , if they were not designed for the preservation of the doctrine of Christ. And ●lthough it should be granted possible ●or the main and fundamental articles of Christian faith ( such as the Apostles Creed gives a summary account of ) ●o have been preserved by the help of ●radition ; yet , unless we be extream●y ungrateful , we cannot but acknowledge that God hath infinitely ●etter provided for us , in not leaving ●he grounds of our Religion to the ●eer breath of the people , or the care ●f mothers instructing their Children , ●ut hath given us the certain records ●fall the doctrines and motives of faith ●reserved inviolably from the first ages ●f the Church . And when the Church●w ●w with what care God had provided ●r the means of faith , tradition●as ●as little minded ; thence the memory ●f those other things not recorded in ●cripture is wholly lost ; all the care ●as imployed in searching , preserving and delivering these sacred books t● posterity . To these the primitiv● Church still appeals ; these they plea● for against all adversaries , defendin● their authority , explaining their sense vindicating them from all corruption● Tradition they rely not on any fu●ther then as a Testimony of the trut● of these records , or to clear the sen● of them from the perverse interpr● tation of those Hereticks who preten● ed another kind of tradition th● what was in Scripture . And when the● were silenced , all the disputes th● arose in the Church concerning matte● of faith , was about the sense of the books ; as is evident by the procee●ings in the case of Arius and Pelagi● Wherein Tradition was only used a means to clear the sense of the S●ptures , but not at all as that which t● faith of all was to be resolved int● But when any thing was pleaded fr● tradition for which there was ground in Scripture , it was reject with the same ease it was offered ; a● such persons were plainly told , t● was not the Churches way ; if they b● plain Scripture with the concurr● sense of Antiquity , they might produce ●t and rely upon it . So that the whole ●se of Tradition in the primitive Church ( besides attesting the books ) was , to shew the unreasonableness of ●mposing senses on Scripture , against the universal sense of the Church from the Apostles times . But as long as men were men , it was not avoidable , but they must fall into different apprehensions of the meaning of the Scripture , according to their different judgements , prejudices , learning and education . And since they had all this apprehension that the Scripture contained all doctrines of faith , thence as men judged of the sense of it , they differed in their apprehension , concerning matters of faith . And thence errors and mistakes might easily come into the Church without one age conspiring to deceive the next . Nay if it be possible for men to rely on tradition without Scripture , this may easily be done ; for by that means they make a new rule of faith not known to the primitive Church , and consequently that very assertion is an error in which the former age did not conspire to deceive the next . And if these things be possible , M. S's . demonstration fails him ; for hereby a reasonable account is given how errors may come into a Church without one age conspiring to deceive another . Again , let me enquire of Mr. S. whether men may not believe it in the power of the ruling part of the Church to oblige the whole to an assent to the definitions of it ? To speak plainer , is it not possible for men to believe the Pope and Council infallible in their decrees ? And I hope the Jesuits ( as little as Mr. S. loves them , or they him ) may be a sufficient evidence of more than the bare possibility of this . If they may believe this , doth it not necessarily follow that they are bound to believe whatever they declare to be matter of faith ? supposing then that Transubstantiation , Supremacy , Invocation of Saints , were but private opinions before , but are now defined by Pope and Council , these men cannot but look on themselves as much obliged to believe them , as if they had been delivered as matters of faith , in every age since the Apostles times . Is it now repugnant to common sense , that this opinion should be believed or entertained in the Church ? if not , why may not this opinion be generally received ? if it be so , doth it not unavoidably follow that the faith of men must alter according to the Churches definitions ? And thus private opinions may be believed as articles of faith , and corrupt practices be established as laudable pieces of devotion , and yet no one age of the Church conspire to deceive another . Thus I hope Mr. S. may see how far it is from being a self-evident principle , that no error can come into the Church , unless one age conspire to deceive the next in a matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world . Which is so wild an apprehension , that I believe the Jesuits cannot entertain themselves without smiles to see their domestick adversaries expose themselves to contempt with so much confidence . Thus I come to the reason I gave why there is no reason to believe that this is the present sense of the Roman Church . My words are , For I see the Roman Church asserts , that things may be de fide in one age , which were not in another ; at least Popes and Councils challenge this ; and this is the common doctrine maintained there , and others are looked on as no members of their C●urch , who assert the contrary ; but as p●rsons at least meritoriously if not actually excommunicate . Where then shall I satisfie my self what the sense of your Church is as to this particular ? Must I believe a very few persons whom the rest disown as heretical and soditious ? or ought I not rather to take the judgement of the greatest and most approved persons of that Church ? And these disown any such doctrine , but assert that the Church may determine things de fide which were not before . In answer to this , Mr. S. begs leave to distinguish the words de fide which may either mean Christian faith or points of faith taught by Christ ; and then he grants 't is non-sense to say they can be in one age , and not in another . Or de fide may mean obligatory to be believed . In this latter sense none I think ( saith he ) denies things may be de fide in one age and not in another ; in the former sense none holds it . Upon which very triumphantly he concludes , Whatrs now become of your difficulty ? I believe you are in some wonderment , and think I elude it rather then answer it ; I shall endeavour to unperplex you . I must confess it a fault of humane nature to admire things which men understand not ; on which account I cannot free my self from some temptation to that he calls wonderment ; but I am presently cured of it when I endeavour to reduce his distinction to reason . For instead of explaining his terms he should have shewed how any thing can be obligatory to be believed in any age of the Church , which was no point of faith taught by Christ , which notwithstanding his endeavour to unperplex me , is a thing as yet I apprehend not : Because I understand no obligation to faith to arise from any thing but divine revelation : and I do not yet believe any thing in Christian doctrine to be divinely revealed , but what was delivered by Christ or his Apostles . And my wonderment must needs be the greater , because I suppose this inconsistent with Mr. S's . principles . For oral tradition doth necessarily imply that all points of faith were first taught by Christ , and conveyed by tradition to us ; but if a thing may be de side in this latter sense which was not before , what becomes of resolving faith wholly into oral tradition ? For faitb is resolved into that from whence the obligation to believe comes ; but here Mr. S. confesses that the obligation to believe doth arise from something quite different from oral tradition ; and therefore faith must be resolved into it . Besides , all the sense I can find in that distinction , is , that men are bound to believe something in one age , which they were not in another ; and if so , I shall desire Mr. S. to unperplex me in this , how every age is bound to believe just as the precedent did , and yet one age be bound to believe more then the precedent . But however , I am much obliged to him for his endeavour to unperplex me as he speaks : for really I look on no civilities to be greater than those which are designed for clearing our understandings : so great an adorer am I of true reason and an intelligible Religion . And therefore I perfectly agree with him in his saying , that Christianity aims not to make us beasts , but more perfectly men : and the perfection of our manhood consists in the use of our reasons . From whence he inferrs , that it is reasonable , consequences should be drawn from principles of faith , which , he saith , are of two sorts ; first such as need no more but common sense to deduce them ; the others are such as need the maxims of some science got by speculation to infer them ; and these are Theological conclusions : the former sort , he tells us , the church is necessitated to make use of upon occasion , i. e. when any heretick questions those , and eadem opera , the whole point of faith it self , of which they were a part ; as in the case of the Monothelites , about Christs baving two wills . But all this while , I am far enough from being unperplexed : nay by this discourse I see every one who offers to unperplex another is not very clear himself . For since he makes no Theological conclusions to be de side , but only such consequences as common sence drawes , I would willingly understand how common sence receives a new obligation to faith . For to my apprehension the deducing of consequences from principles by common sense , is not an act of believing , but of knowledge consequent upon a principle of faith . And the meaning is no more then this , that men when they say they believe things , should not contradict themselves , as certainly they would do , if they deny those consequences which common sense draws from them . As in the case of the Monothelites , for men to assert that Christ had two natures , and yet not two wills , when the will is nothing else but the inclination of the nature to that good which belongs to it . So that there can be no distinct obligation to believe such consequences as are drawn by common sense ; but every one that believes the principles from whence they are drawn , is thereby bound to believe all the consequences which immediately follow from them . Indeed the Church , when people will be so unreasonable to deny such things , may explain her sense of the article of faith in those terms which may best prevent dispute ; but this is only to discriminate the persons who truly believe this article from such as do not . Not that any new obligation to faith results from this act of the Church : but the better to prevent cavils , she explains her sense of the article it self in more explicite terms . Which as he saith , is only to put the faith out of danger of being equivocated . Which is quite another thing from causing a new obligation to believe . As suppose the Church to prevent the growth of the Socinian doctrine , should , require from men the declaring their belief of the eternal existence of the Son of God ; Would this be to bind men to believe some thing which they were not bound to before ? no , but only to express their assent to the Deity of Christ in the simplest terms ; because otherwise they might call him God by office , and not by nature . Now how can any one conceive that any should be first obliged to believe that Christ is God ; and yet receive a new obligation afterwards to believe his eternal existence ? Thus it is in all immediate consequences drawn by common sense ; in all which the primary obligation to believe the thing it self , extends to the belief of it in the most clear and least controverted terms , which are not intended to impose on mens faith , but to promote the Churches peace . For neither i● there a new object of faith ; for how can that be which common sense draws from what is believed already ▪ neither is there any infallible proponent , unless common sense hath usurped the Popes prerogative . But Mr. S. offers at a reason for this , which is that none can have an obligation to believe what they have not an obligation to think of ; and in some age the Gen●rality of the faithful have no occasion , nor consequently obligation to mind , reflect , or think on those propositions involved in the main stock of faith . From whence , he saith , it follows , that a thing may be de fide or obligatory to be believed in one age , and not in another . But let Mr. s. shew how a man can be obliged to believe any thing as an article of faith , who is not bound to thin● of all the immediate consequences o● it ? Because faith is an act of a reasonable nature , which ought to enquire into the reasons and consequences of things which it doth believe . Bu● Mr. s. mistake lies here , in not distinguishing the obligation to believe , from the obligation to an explicite declaration of that assent . The former comes only from God , and no new obligation can arise from any act of the Church ; but the latter being a thing tending to the Churches peace , may be required by it on some occasions ; i. e. when the doctrine is assaulted by hereticks as in the time of the four first General Councils : but still a man is not at all the more obliged to assent , but to express his assent in order to the Churches satisfaction . But Mr. S. supposes me to enquire , how the Church can have power to oblige the Generality to belief of such a point . To which his answer is , she obliges them to believe the main point of faith , by vertue of traditions being a self-evident rule , and these implyed points by vertue of their being self-evidently connected with those main and perpetually used points , so that the vulgar can be rationally and connaturally made capable of this their obligation . But we are not now enquiring what the obligation to believe the main points of faith is , nor whether traditiou be a self-evident rule ; but how there should be a new obligation to believe something self-evidently connected with the former points , is beyond my capacity to understand . And they must be vulgar understandings indeed , that can rationally and connaturally be made capable of such an obligation . For if it be self-evidently connected with the main points , no one can believe the one , without believing the other : for nothing is self-evident but what a man assents to at the first apprehension of it ; and if he doth so , how comes there a new obligation to believe it ? Is it possible to believe that any thing consists of parts , and not believe that the whole is greater than any of those parts ▪ for this is a thing self-evidently connected with the nature of the whole . But these are self-evident riddles , a● the former were unintelligible demonstrations . And yet though these b● rare Theories , the application of them to the case of the Roman Church exceeds all the rest . Whence , saith he , the Government of our Church is still justified to be sweet , and according to right nature , and yet forcible and efficacious Although I admire many things in Mr. S's . Book , yet I cannot say I do any thing more than this passage , that because men are obliged to believe no implyed points , but such as are self-evidently connected with the main ones , therefore the Government of the Roman Church is sweet and according to right nature , &c. Alas then , how much have we been mistaken all this while , that have charged her with imposing hard and unsufferable conditions of communion with her ! no , she is so gentle and sweet that she requires nothing but the main points on the account of a self-evident rule , and implyed points by reason of self-evident connexion with the former . I see Mr. S. ( if he will make good his word ) is the only person who ●s ever like to reconcile me with the Church of Rome : For I assure you , I ●ever desire any better terms of communion with a Church , than to have no ●ain points of faith required from me ●o assent to , but what are built on a self-evident rule , nor any implyed points ●ut such as are self-evidently connected with the former . And no work can ●e more easie , than to convince me upon these grounds ; for all endeavours of proof are taken away by the things being said to be self-evident . For the very offer of proof that they are so , self-evidently proves they are not so : For what ever is proved by something beside it self , can never be said without a contradiction to be self-evident . But not to tye up Mr. S. from his excellent faculty of proving , if Mr. S. will prove to me that any of the points in difference between us , as Transubstantiation , Purgatory , Supremacy of the Roman Church , &c. have any self-evident connexion with any main poin● of faith in the Apostles Creed , I solemnly promise him to retract all I have writ against that Church ; so far shall bee from needing a new obligation to believe them . But if these be so remot● from self-evidence , that they are plainly repugnant to sense and reason ( witne● that self-evident doctrine of Transubstantiation ) what then must we thin● of Mr. S. ? Surely the least is , that sin● his being a Roman Catholick , his min● is strangely inlightned , so far that tho● things are self-evident to him , whi● are contradictions to the rest of t● world . But withal Mr. S. acquaints us with another mysterie ; which is , how these points descended by a kind of tradition , and yet confesses , they were never thought of or reflected on , by the Generality , till the Church took occasion to explain them . Such a silent tradition doth very sutably follow the former self-evident connexion . For he that can believe Transubstantiation to be self-evident , no wonder if he believes that to have been delivered by a constant Tradition , which was never heard of from the Apostles times to these . Now Mr. S. is pleased to return to me , and draws up a fresh charge against me , which is , that I act like a Politician , and would conquer them by first dividing them , and making odius comparisons between two parties of Divines . But to shew us how little they differ , he distinguishes them , as faithful , and as private discoursers ; in the former not●on , he saith , they all hold the same divinely constituted Church-Government , and the same self-evident rule of faith ; but as private discoursers he acknowledges they differ in the explication of their belief . I meddle not here ●●th the Government of their Church , ( which I have elswhere proved to be far enough from being divinely constituted ) but with the rule of faith ; and the question is , whether the infallibility of or altradition , be that self-evident rule which that Church proceeds on ; Yes , saith Mr. S. they are all as faithful agreed in it , but as discoursers they differ about it . Which in short is , that all in the Church of Rome , who are not of his opinion , know not what they say ; and that they oppose that which they do really believe . Which in plain English is , that they are egregious dissemblers and prevaricators in Religion ; that they do intolerably flatter the Pope and present Church with loud declamations for their infallibility , but they do really believe no such thing , but resolve all into oral tradition . But is not this an excellent agreement among them , when Mr. White and his party not only disown the common doctrine of the infallibility of Pope and Councils , but dispute against it as pernicious and destructive to Christian faith ? on the other side the far greater part of Romanists say , there can be no certainty of faith , unless there be an infallible divine testimony in the present Church , and this lodged in Pope and Councils ; that those who endeavour to overthrow this , are dangerous , seditious , heretical persons . Accordingly , their Books are censured at Rome , their opinions disputed against , and their persons condemned . And yet all this while , we must believe that these stick together like two smooth Marbles as faithful , though they are knocked one against another as discoursers ; and that they perfectly agree in the same self-evident rule of faith , when all their quarrels and contentions are about it : and those managed with so great heat , that heresie is charged of one side , and Arch-heresie and undermining Religion on the other . Doth he think we never heard of Mr. Whites Sonus Succinae , nor of that Chapter in it , where he saith , that the doctrine of Pope and Councils infallibility tends to overthrow the certainty of Christian faith ; and that the propagating such a doctrine is a greater crime then burning Temples , ravishing the sacred Virgins on the Altars , trampling on the body of Christ , or the sending the Turk or Antichrist into Christian Countreys ? Or doth he think we can believe that the Pope and Cardinals , the Jesuites and all the Papists of forreign Countreys do as faithful agree with Mr. White in this ? It seems not so by the proceedings in the Court of Rome against him , in which as appears by the censure of the Inquisition against him , dated 17. November 1661. his doctrine is condemned not only as false , seditious and scandalous , but as heretical and erroneous in faith . And if it were not for this very doctrine he was there censured , why doth Mr. White set himself purposely to defend it in his Tabulae suffragiales ? If these then do agree as faithful , who cannot but envy the excellent harmony of the Roman Church , in which men condemn each other for hereticks , and yet all believe the same things still ? Well Sir , I am in hopes upon the same grounds Mr. S. will yield us the same charity too , and tell us that we agree with him as faithful , only we differ a little from him as discoursers ; for I assure you , there is as great reason : the only difference is , we give them not such ill words as they do each other . For let Mr. S. shew us wherein we differ more from him about the Rule of Faith , than they do among themselves : For Mr , White when he hath said , that all kind of heresie doth arise from hence that men make the holy Scripture , or a private spirit , the rule of faith ; he presently adds , it is all one , if one make councils or Pope any other way than as witnesses to be the authors of faith . For , saith he , this is to subject the whole Church to that slavery , to receive any errour for an article of faith , which they shall define , or propose modo illegitimo , i. e. any other way then as witnesses of tradition . Either then we differ from Mr. S. only as discoursers , or he and his Brethren differ from each other more then as such . And so any one would think who reads the oppositions and arguments against each other on this subject , particularly Mr. Whites Tabulae suffragiales . But let Mr. White say what he will , Mr. S. tells me , I am not aware how little they differ even as Divines . The more shame for them to have such furious heats and oppositions where there is so little difference . But as little as they differ , Mr. White thinks it safer to talk of their unity in England , than to try whether they be of his mind at Rome , by going thither to clear himself ; for he justly fears he should find them differ from him some other way the● as bare discoursers . Yet let us hea● Mr. S's . reason ; for , saith he , thoug● some speculators attribute to the Churc● a power of defining things not held before , yet few will say she hath new revelations or new articles of faith . Bu● we know the temper of these men better then to rely on what they barel● say . For they say what they think 〈◊〉 most for their purpose ; and on● of Mr. Whites adversaries , ( if himsel● may be credited ) plainly told him , i● the doctrine of the Popes infallibility wer● not true , yet it ought to be defended b●cause it was for the interest of the Churc● of Rome : for which he is sufficientl● rebuked by him . It is one thing the● what they say , and another what necessarily follows from the doctrin● which they assert . But for plain dealing commend me to the Canonists , who say expresly , the Church ( by whic● they mean the Pope ) may make new articles of faith : and this is the sense of the rest , though they are loth to speak out . Else Mr. White was much too blame in spending so much time in proving the contrary . But what man of common sense can imagine that these men can mean otherwise , who assert such an infallibility in Pope and Councils , as to oblige men under pain of eternal damnation to believe those things which they were not obliged to , before such a definition ? And what can this be else but to make new articles of faith ? For an article of faith supposes a necessary obligation to believe it : now if some doctrine may become thus obligatory by virtue of the Churches definition which was not so before , that becomes thereby an article of faith which it was not before . But these subtle men have not yet learnt to distinguish a new doctrine from a new article of faith : they do not indeed pretend that their doctrine is new , because they deny any such thing as new revelation in the Church ; but yet they must needs say , if they understand themselves , that old implicit doctrines , may become new a●ticles of faith by virtue of the Churcher definition . So little are they relieved by that silly distinction of explicit and implicit delivery of them , which Mr. S. for a great novelty acquaints us with . For what is only implicitly delivered , 〈◊〉 no article of faith at all : for that can be no article of faith , which men are not bound to believe ; now there are none will say that men are bound to believe under pain of damnation i● they do not the things which are only implicitly delivered ; but this they say with great confidence of all things defined by the Church . And let now any intelligent person judge ; whether those who assert such things , do not differ wide enough from those who resolve all into oral tràdition , and make the obligation to faith wholly dependent upon the constant tradition of any doctrine from age to age ever since the Apostles times . But Mr. S. is yet further displeased with me for saying , that Pope and Councils challenge a power to make things de fide in one age , which were not in another . For 1. he says I speak it in common , and prove it not . 2. He adds , That take them right , this is both perfectly innocent , and unavoidably necessary to a Church . And is it not strange he should expect any particular proofs of so innocent and necessary a thing to the being of a Church ? But he will tell me it is in his own sense of de fide , which I have already shewn to signifie nothing to his purpose . Let him therefore speak out whether he doth believe any such thing as inherent infallibility in the definitions of Pope and Councils ? if not , I am sure at Rome they will never believe that Mr. S. agrees with them as faithful ; if he doth , whether doth not such an infallible definition bind men by virtue of it to the belief of what is then defined ? if it doth , then things may become as much de fide by it , as if they were delivered by Christ or his Apostles . For thereby is supposed an equal obligation to faith , because there is a proposition equally infallible . But will he say , the Pope doth not challenge this ? Why then is the contrary doctrine censured and condemned at Rome ? Why is the other so eagerly contended for , by the most zealous sons of that Church , and that not as a school-opinion , but as the only certain foundation of faith ? Mr. S. is yet pleased to inform me further , that nothing will avail me but this , if a Pope and Council should define a new thing , and declare they ground themselves on new lights , as did their first reformers in England : but I shall find , he saith , no such fopperies in faith-definitions made by the Catholick Church . Is this the man who made choice of reason for his weapon ? could there be a greater calumny cast on our Church , than to say her reformers grounded themselves on new lights : when our great charge against the Church of Rome is for introducing Novelties , and receding from pure and primitive antiquity . Whether the charge be true or no , yet sure it follows they did not declare they ground themselves on new lights , but expresly the contrary . Well , but Pope and Councils neither define new things , nor ground themselves on them : but what means the man of reason ? that they make no new definitions : surely ot ; for then what did they meet for ? ●d what mean their decrees ? but he ●tends , that they deliver no new do●rine : but how must that be tryed ? ●r hath Mr. S. gained the opinion of ●fallibility both from Pope and Coun●ls , that we must believe his bare ●ord ? but we not only say but prove ●hat even their last Council hath defi●ed many things , which never were ●elivered by Christ or his Apostles . And it is to no purpose whether they ●y they ground themselves on new lights , ●r pretend to an infallible assistance ; ●or it comes all to the same at last . For ●f the assistance be infallible , what mat●er is it whether the doctrine hath been ●evealed or no ? for on this suppositi●n it is impossible that Pope and Council●hould ●hould miscarry . Therefore if any Church be guilty of fopperies in faith-definitions , it must be that which you miscall the Catholick , but is more truly known by the name of the Roman Church . There is yet one piece of Mr. S's . sagacity to be taken notice of as to this particular , which is , that I am at an end of my argument , because I say the opinion of the Pope and Councils infallibility is the common doctrine maintained : in which I confound the Church with the schools , or some private opinaters , and then carp at those mens tenets . And this is the force of all that Paragraph . He tells me , I wa● not wit to know that no sober Catholic● holds humane deductions the rule of their faith , schoolmen definers of it , no● the schools the Tribunal whence to propose it authoritatively and obligingly to the generality of the faithful . Neither doth Mr. S. want the wit to know that our present enquiry is concerning the sense of their present Church about the rule of faith . Since the● Mr. S. must confess it necessary to faith to know what the certain rule of it is ; let me enquire further , whether any particular person can know certainly what it is , unless he know● what the Church owns for her rule of faith ; and whether that may be owned as the Churches judgement , which is stiffly opposed by the most interessed persons in the Roman Church , and the most zealous contenders for it . ? Especially when the Pope who is said to be Head of the Church , condemns the doctrine asserted , and that only by a small number of such who are as much opposed by themselves , as by any of us . Is it then possible to know the Churches judgement or not ? if not , t is to no purpose to search for a rule of faith : if it be , which way can we come to know it , either by most voices or the sense of the Governours of the Church ; either of the wayes , I dare put it to a fair tryall whether oral tradition , or the infallibility of Pope and Councils be the doctrine most owned in the Church of Rome ? But Mr. S. still tells us , these are only private opinators and schoolmen who assert the contrary doctrine to his . But will not they much more say on the other side , that this way of oral tradition is a novel fancy of some few half-Catholicks in England , and tends to subvert the Roman Church . But is the present Pope with Mr. S. a private opinator , or was the last a meer schoolman ? I am sure what ever Mr. S. thinks of him he thought not so of himself , when he said , he was no Divine in the controversie of Jansenius . Doth the Court of Rome signifie no more with Mr. S. then a company of scholastick Pedants , that know not what the sense of the Church is , concerning the rule of faith ? I meddle not with the Schools but with the authority of the present Church , and him whom Mr. S. owns for the head of it : and is it consistent with his headship to condemn that doctrine which contains in it the only certain rule of faith ? Mr. S. may then see they were no such impertinent Topicks which I insisted on , and as stout as Mr. S. seems to be , I am apt to believe he would not look on the censure of the Inquisition as an impertinent Topick . But at last Mr. S. offers at something whereby he would satisfie me of the sense of the Church , as to this particular , and therefore asks , whether I never heard of such a thing as the Council of Trent ? I must ingenuously confess I have ; and seen more a great deal of it , then I am satisfied with . But what of that ? there , he tells me , I may find a clear solution of my doubt by the constant procedure of that most grave Synod in its definitions . That is I hope to find that oral Tradition was acknowledged there as the only self-evident rule of faith : if I do this . I confess my self satisfied in this enquiry . But how much to the contrary is there very obvious in the proceedings of it ? For in the 4. Session the Decree is , That Scripture and tradition should be embraced with equal piety and reverence ; and the reason is , because the doctrine of faith is contained , partly in Scripture , partly in tradition ; but what arts must Mr. S. use to inferr from hence , that oral tradition in contradistinction to Scripture was looked on as the only rule of faith ? I cannot but say that the ruling men of that Council were men wise enough in their Generation ; and they were too wise wholly to exclude Scripture ; but because they knew that of it self could not serve their purposes , they therefore help it out with tradition , and make both together the compleat rule of faith . Where I pray in all the proceedings of that Council doth Mr. S. find them desine any thing on the account of oral tradition ? instead of which we find continual bandyings about the sense of Scripture and Fathers , which might have been all spared if they had been so wise as to consider they could not but know the sense of the present Church , nor that of the precedent , and so up to the time of Christ. But they were either so ignorant as not to light on this happy invention , or so wise and knowing as to despise it . It is true they would not have their doctrines looked on as Novelties , therefore they speak much of tradition and the ancient faith ; but that was not by what their Parents taught them , but what the Fathers of the Church delivered in their writings ; for by these they judged of traditions , and not the oral way . And therefore I see little reason to believe , that this was either the sense of the Council of Trent , or is the sense of any number of Roman Catholicks , much less of the whole Church none excepted as Mr. S. in his confident way expresses it . And if he will , as he saith , disavow the maintaining any point , or affecting any way which is not assented to by all , I hope to see Mr. S. retract this opinion , and either fall in with the Court of Rome , or return as reason leads him into the bosom of the Church of England . But there seems to be somewhat more in what follows , viz. that though schoolmen question the personal infallibility of the Pope , or of the Roman Clergy , nay of a General Council , yet all affirm the infallibility of tradition , or the living voice of the Church essential ; and this , he faith , is held by all , held firmly , and that it is absolutely infallible . To this therefore I answer ; either Mr. S. means that none do affirm that the universal tradition of the Church essential can erre ; or that the Church of Rome being the Church essential cannot erre in her tradition : But which way soever he takes it , I shall easily shew how far it is from proving that he designs it for . For if he take it in the first sense , viz. that all the faithful in all ages could not concur in an error , then he may as well prove Protestants of his mind as Papists , for this is the foundation on which we believe the particular books of Scripture . If this therefore proves any thing , it proves more then he intends , viz. that while we thus oppose each other , we do perfectly agree together ; and truly so we do , as much as they do among themselves . But if Mr. S's . meaning be , that all of their Religion own the Roman Church to be the Church essential , and on that account , that it cannot erre ( setting aside the absurdity of the opinion it self ) I say from hence it doth not follow , that they make or●l tradition the rule of faith , because it is most evident that the ground why they say thei● Church cannot erre , is not on Mr. S's . principles , but on the supposition of an infallible assistance which preserves that Church from error . So that this fall● far short of proving that they are all agreed in this rule of faith ; which is a thing so far from probability , that he might by the same argument prove that Scripture is owned by them all to be the rule of faith . For I hope it is held by all , and held firmly that the living voice of God in Scripture as delivered to us is infallible ; and if so then there is as much ground for this as the other . But if we enquire what it is men make a rule of faith , we must know not only that they believe tradition infallible , but on what account they do . so . For if tradition be believed infallible barely on the account of a promise of infallibility to the present Church , then the resolution of saith is not into the tradition , but into that infallible assistance ; and consequently the rule of faith is not , what bare tradition delivers , but what that Church which cannot erre in judging tradition doth propose to us . It is not therefore their being agreed in General that tradition is infallible doth make them agree in the same rule of faith ; but they must agree in the ground of that infallibility , viz. that it depends on this , that no age could conspire to deceive the next . But all persons who understand any thing of the Roman Church , know very well that the general reason why tradition is believed infallible is , because they first believe the Church to be infallible ; whereas Mr. S. goes the contrary way , and makes the infallibility of the Church , to depend on the infallibility of Tradition . And therefore for all that I can see we must still oppose private opinators in this controversie ; the Church of Rome , not having declared her self at all on Mr. S's behalf , but the contrary : and the generality believing on the account of the present Churches infallibility . And it is strange Mr. S. should find no difference between mens resolving faith into common sense , and into the immediate assistance of the Holy Ghost . If this then be the first principle of controversie , as Mr. S. pretends , we see how unlikely they are to agree about other matters , who are so much divided about the principle of resolving them . And if this be the ground of faith , then most Romanists build on a wrong Foundation . But if the infallibility of oral tradition , be the foundation on which that formidable structure is erecting , which he speaks of ; woe then to the Court of Rome , for that is known to build on quite a different foundation . And if this , as he saith , rises apace , and has advanced many stories in a small time , it only lets us know how fast their divisions grow , and that they are building so fast one against another , that their Church will not stand between them . By this discourse , Mr. S. pretends to answer all those If 's which follow ; which are these , In case the Church may determine things de fide which were not before , whether the present Church doth then believe as the precedent did or no ? if it did , how comes any thing to be de fide which was not before ? if it did not , what assurance can I have that every age of the Church believes just as the precedent did and no otherwise ? When I see they profess the contrary . And if a thing may be de fide in one age which was not in a foregoing , then a Church may deliver that as a matter of faith at one time , which was never accounted so before : by which means the present Church may oblige me to believe that as a matter of faith , which never was so in Christs or the Apostles times , and so the infallibility on the account of tradition is destroyed . To all which Mr. S. gives a very easie answer : viz. that they do not hold any disparate or unimplyed points of faith ; but such as are involved and implyed in the main point . This is more easily said then understood : For if these be implyed in the former , how can there come a new obligation to believe them ? For to take his own Instance , will any man in his senses say , that he that believes , homo est animal rationale , doth not believe homo est animal ? and this he makes choice of as an example how one point of faith may be involved in another so as to receive a distinct obligation to believe it . I grant that homo est animal is involved in the other , but he that shall say , that after he hath assented to that proposition , homo est animal rationale , he may be capable of a new obligation to believe the former which is involved in this , it may be justly questioned whether such a one as to himself can truly say , homo est animal rationale or no. But after such rare subtilties , he doth very well to tell me , that I ought to consider what Logick tells us , that the conclusion is in the premises , which reflection ( in his courtlike expression ) he saith will much unblunder my thoughts . But let the conclusion be as long as it will in the premises , will any man in his wits say , that he that believes the truth of the premises is not thereby bound to believe the conclusion ? and the more the one is involved in the other , the less is it possible to make the obligation to believe them distinct . And it is hard for me to believe , that this is a way to unblunder my thoughts , when I see what horrible confusion such expressions argue in his own . Let the Church then clear her thoughts never so much , yet all this cannot amount to a distinct obligation to believe those things which were involved before , but to a more explicit declaring them for the Churches peace and satisfaction . The only conclusion then involved in these premises is , that if some things may be de fide in one age which were not in another , then the present age may believe otherwise then the precedent did . And if this doctrine be held in the Church of Rome , nothing can be more evident , then that Mr. S's . first principle of controversie , is far from being the doctrine of the Roman Church : which was the thing to be proved . My second chief argument against this way of oral tradition was , that it had not been owned in all ages of the Christian Church ; to manifest which , I enquired into the reason of the obligation in any age of the Church to believe and practise just as the precedent did . Mr. S. rejoyces in that confession of mine , that the only thing to be proved in this case is , that every age of the Church and all persons in it looked on themselves as obliged not to vary in any thing from the doctrine and practise of the precedent age . And I there offer the choice of three wayes to prove it , reason , testimony Or tradition ; he tells me , he accepts the way of reason ; yet quarrels with me for pressing for a demonstrative medium to prove it , when yet Mr. S. seldome speaks unde●●he rate of demonstrations . But he thereby notes the unconsonancy of my carriage ; Wherein I wonder ? that I should desire them to perform their promise , viz. to give us demonstrations for the grounds of faith ? But he saith withal , he will yield me the honour of professing I have no demonstration but probability for the ground of mine , and he make● this serious protestation for himself , tha● he should esteem himself very dishonest , did he assert and press on others an● argument for the ground of his faith which he judged not evident , that is demonstrative . What is it these men mean , when they cry up their own way for demonstrative , and say that we build ●ur faith meerly on probabilities ? Do ●hey say that Religion is capable of ●rict and rigorous demonstration ? If 〈◊〉 , let them demonstrate the Being of ●od and Immortality of the soul with as ●uch evidence , as that the three angles ●f a triangle are equal to two right angles . ●nd it is strange if they think particu●r problems in religion are more capa●le of demonstration then those Theorems●n ●n which they are built . But by all he enquiry I can make , all the diffe●ence between us is , that Mr. S. will ●ave that called a demonstration , which ● scarce a probability , and we call tha● ●fficient reason , which any wise man ●ay safely rely on in matters of religi●n . In the mean time how much do ●e suffer by our modesty , that because ●e speak not as big as Mr. S. does , we ●ust be censured presently to have no●hing but probabilities for our faith ? Are ●hose bare probabilities which leave no ●uspicion of doubt behind them ? and ●uch we freely assert the grounds of ●ur religion to do ; i. e. I assert that we have the highest actual certainty of the truth of our Religion which the mind of any reasonable man can desire , and if Mr. S's . demonstrations can do any more then this , let him tell us what it is . For my part I know nothing higher in the mind of man then a certain assent , and if I did not think there was the greatest ground in Religion for that , I abhorr dissimulation so much that I should leave off perswading men to embrace it . And if any men have made us shye of the word demonstration and infallibility , they are such men as Mr. S. have done it , who talk of these things when their arguments fall beneath some of the remotest probabilities we insist on . Nay if there be any force in his demonstration as to matters of fact , it hath been used by us long before his book saw the light . But we love to give the true names to things , and not to lose our credit with all intelligent persons , by playing Mountebanks in Religion , crying 〈◊〉 those things for infallible cures which an ordinary capacity may discern the insufficiency of . But was it any thin● but justice and reason in me to expe●● and call for a demonstration from them who talk of nothing under it ? And therefore I said , that it was impossible to demonstrate this way of oral tradition , unless it were proved impossible for men not to think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors did . For where the contrary is not only possible , but easily supposable , ●s that men may believe those things as new articles of faith which are defined by Pope and Council , I wonder how Mr. S. will demonstrate that men must ●ook on themselves as obliged to be●●eve just as their predecessors did ? For I had thought demonstrations had ●ever place in contingent propositions ; but it seems Mr. S. who tells me , Logick will unblunder my thoughts , in●ends to make a new one for me . And ● assure you so he had need , before I ●hall ever call his arguments demon●trations : and although he thinks him●elf very honest in calling them so , yet ● should think him much wiser if he did not . But before I come to the particular debate of these things , I freely tell him , that I grant all he requests ; ● shall take along with me the nature of the matter in hand , the doctrines an● practises spoken of , the manner of delivering them , the necessary circumstance● which give weight to both ; yet for al● these , I cannot look on his way as demonstrative . And that both our meanings may be better understood , it i● very necessary the Reader should hav● a true account of the state of the Question between us . And if he will believe me , I never intended to disput● with him or any one else , whether me● were bound to wear their clothes , or buil● houses , or manage estates just as thei● predecessors did , but whether eve● age is obliged to believe and practi● just as the precedent did by vertue o● meer oral tradition ; for about that i● all the controversie between us . I d● not deny but that a succeeding ag● may look on it self as bound to believe what the precedent did ; bu● whether that obligation doth ari● purely from the delivery of that doctrine by the precedent in the way o● of tradition , is the thing in dispute between us . For in case the ground ● faith be wholly the written word conveyed from age to age , I deny not but an obligation to believe descends with the doctrine to every succeeding age . But that which Mr. S. is to prove is , that abstractly from Scripture every age is absolutely bound to believe just as the precedent did , without any enquiry whether that doctrine doth agree with Scriptures or no , but that he is therefore bound to believe all which is proposed to him , because it was the doctrine of the immediately preceding age . And this is that which I deny , and desire Mr. S. to prove For which he first gives us a large instance in historical matters , and then comes to the matters of Christian saith . His Instance is , in Alexanders conquest of Asia , as to which he saith , that the memory of it is fresh and lively , though some thousand years since . And that the universal and strong perswasion of this matter of fact was not caused by Books , as Curtius his History , but by humane tradition : that the continuance of this perswasion was the notoriety of the fact to the then livers which obliged them to relate it to their posterity , and that this testifying by the fore-fathers was that which obliged posterity to believe things as true , because there could be no imaginable motive why the whole world should conspire to deceive them , or be deceivable in their sensations : on which principle it passed to the next age , and so came down by way of tradition to our dayes : and the obligation to believe in every age depended upon this that the senses of the first could not be deceived ; and having this security in every age that no one would conspire to deceive the next ; it followes that no age could say a former age testified so , unless it did so ; therefore , saith he , it follows demonstratively that it was testified ; and so the descendents in every age to the very end of the world have the same obligation to believe their immediate fore-fathers saying it was testified by theirs , and so to the very first who were witnesses of his actions . This is the substance of what he more largely discourses in several Paragraphs ; which when he hath done , he tells me , he expects what I will reply to this discourse . Not to frustrate therefore his expectation , and in order to the Readers satisfaction , we are to consider that in the present case there are two distinct questions to be resolved . 1. How a matter of fact evident to the world comes to be conveyed to posterity ? 2. By what means a compleat history of all passages relating to it may be conveyed ? As 〈◊〉 the first , I grant that a fact so noto●us as Alexanders conquest of Asia might have been preserved by humane tradition , and conveyed in a certain way from one age to another . But if we enquire into that which is alone proper to our Question , viz. by what means we may judge what is true and false as to the particulars of that conquest , then I deny that bare tradition is to be relyed on in this case . For the certainty of conveyance of all particulars doth depend not upon the bare veracity , but the capacity and skill of communicating from one age to another . For which one would think we need no clearer evidence then the considerations of the different account of former times in the several Nations of the world . For who can imagine , but the barbarous Nations were as unwilling to deceive their posterity as any other ? yet we see a vast difference in the histories of former ages among them , and more civilized people . And I wish Mr. S. would rather have instanced in some history which had been preserved meerly by tradition and not in such a one , which , if any other , hath been most carefully recorded and propagated to posterity . If Mr. S. would have undertaken to have told us who they were that first peopled America , and srom what place they came by the tradition of the present inhabitants , and what famous actions had been done there in former ages , we might have thought indeed that sole tradition had been a very safe way to convey matters of fact from one age to another . But since all Mr. S's . arguments will hold as well for the S●ythians and Americans and the most barbarous Nations , as the most civil and polite ; what reason can Mr. S. give why there is not among them as certain an account of former ages , as among the Greeks and Romans ? Were not their senses , who saw those matters of fact , as uncapable of being d●ceived as others ? was not every a● among them as un●illing to deceive their posterity as elswhere ? yet notwithstanding the force of Mr. Ss. demonstration , we see for want of letters how grosly ignorant they are of what was done before them . And if this principle were true , why have we not as true an account of the eldest ages of the world , as of any other ? Nay , why were letters invented , and writing ever used , if tradition had been found so infallible ? But it is one thing superficially to discourse what is impossible should be otherwise , and another to consider what really hath been in the world . Doth not the constant ●xperience of all times prove that where any history hath not been timely recorded , it hath been soon corrupted by notorious ●alsities , or obscured by fabulous reports ? As we see among our selves what difference there is in point of certainty between the several stories of K. Arthur and William the Conqueror ; what will Mr. S. say , that these who lived in K. Arthurs time could not know what he did ; or that they conspired to deceive their posterity ? But if tradition be so infallible , why have we not the ancient story of Britain as exact as the modern ? If Mr. S. will impute it to the peoples ignorance , want of letters , frequ●nt conquests by other Nations , and succeeding barbarism , he may easi●y find how many wayes there are for matters of fact to be soon lost or corrupted , when they have not been diligently preserved by authentick records ; and that without one age conspiring to deceive another . But notwithstanding Mr. S's . confidence , I cannot think it possible for Mr. S. to believe that we should have had as true an account of Alexander● conquest of Asia , if Arrian , Curtius , o● Plutarch had never writ his story , a● we have now . Yet this he must asse● by vertue of his principles . And he that can believe that , I wonder he should scruple believing the Popes infallibility ; for certainly no principle o● the Jesuites is more wild and absurd then this is . Besides , I admire how it came into Mr. S's . head to think , no error could come into history unless o● age conspired to deceive another , when we find no age agreed in the present matters of fact which are done in it , as to the grounds and particulars of them . To give Mr. S. an instance home to his purpose , in the late Council of Trent ; we see already what different representations there are made of it in so little a time as hath already passed since the sitting of it . One , though he had all the advantages imaginable of knowing all proceedings in it , living at the same time , conversing with the persons present at it , having the memoires and records of the Secretaries themselves , yet his story is since endeavoured to be blasted by a great person of the Roman Church as fictitious and partial . We see then it is at least supposed that interest and prejudice may have a great hand in abusing the world in matter of story , though one-age never agree to deceive another . And in stead of being perswaded by Mr. S's . demonstrations , I am still of the mind , that we have no sufsicient security of the truth of any story , which was not written while those persons were in being who were able to contradict the errors of it . However I deny not but some notorious matters of fact , such as Alexanders bare conquest of Asia , might by the visible effects of it be preserved both in Asia and Greece for a long time . But if we come to enquire particularly whether this or that was done by him in his conquest , which is alone pertinent to our purpose , we have no security at all from tradition , but only from the most authentick records of that story . And by this , I hope Mr. S. will have cause to thank me for unblundering his thoughts ( his own civil expression ) and shewing him how errors may come into a story without one age conspiring to deceive the next ; and what a vast difference there is between preserving a bare matter of fact , and all the particulars relating to it . And hereby he may easily see how far the obligation extends in believing the report of former ages . For there can be no obligation to believe any further then there is evidence of truth in the matter we are obliged to . If then there be not only a possibility but a very great probability of mistakes and errors in matters of fact , I pray what obligation doth there lye upon men absolutely to believe what is delivered by the preceding age ? But to put an issue to this controversie , let Mr. S. examine himself , and try if he can name one story that was never written , which was ever certainly popagated from one age to another by meer oral tradition ; and if he cannot , he may thereby see how little real force his argument hath in the world . For all the force of tradition lies in an unquestionable conveyance of those books , which contain in them the true reports of the actions of the times they were written in . But can Mr. S. think , that if the Roman history had never been written , it had been possible for us to have known what was done under the Kings and Consuls as now we do ? yet if his principle holds , this necessarily follows ; for those of that age could not but know them , and no age since could conspire to deceive the next . And from hence , the most useful consequence of all is that Mr. S. might have writ a history from the beginning of the world to this day , with a full relation of all particulars , if there had never been any book written in the world before . And doth not Mr. S. deserve immortal credit for so rare an invention as this is , and all built on nothing short of demonstrations : But Mr. S. very prudently foresees , what it is I must be forced to recurre to , viz. that being baffled with his former demonstration , I have no other shift to betake my self to , but to say the case is different between histories and points of faith . And therefore to bring his business home , he applyes it at large to the delivery of the Christian faith , which that he might do in more ample sort , he very finely descants on the old Verse , Quis , quid , ubi , &c. containing the circumstances of human actions , and from every one of them derives arguments for the infallibility of oral tradition : which briefly and in plain English may be summed up thus ; Since the author of this doctrine was the son of God , the doctrine it self so excellent , and delivered in so publick a manner , in the most convincing way by miracles and good living , and for so good an end as to save mens souls , and that by writing it in mens hearts and testified to others ; and all this at a time when men might judge of the miracles and motives for believing it ; therefore since in all these respects it was imcomparably beyond the story of Alexanders conquests , it follows that in a manner infinitely greater must the obligation be to believe Christs doctrine , than Alexanders or William the Conquerours victories , or any history of the like nature whatsoever . All which I freely grant , but cannot yet see how from thence it follows that oral tradition is the only rule of faith , or the means whereby we are to judge what is the doctrine of Christ , and what not . Those arguments I confess prove that the Christians of the first age were highly concerned to enquire into the truth of these things , and that they had the greatest reason imaginable to believe them ; and that it is not possible to conceive that they should not endeavour to propagate so excellent a doctrine and of so high concernment to the world . But the question is , whether abstractly from the books written in the first age of the Christian Church , there is so much infallibility in the oral tradition of every age , that nothing could be embraced for Christs doctrine which was not and consequently whether every age were bound to believe absolutely what was delivered it by the precedent for the doctrine of Christ ? Mr. S. therefore puts himself to a needless task of proving that every age was bound to believe the doctrine of Christ , which I never questioned ; but the dispute is , whether every age be bound on the account of oral tradition to believe what is delivered by the precedent for Christs doctrine . But it is to be observed all along how carefully Mr. S. avoids mentioning the written books of the New Testament ; because he knew all his game about oral tradition would be quite spoiled by a true stating the matter of fact in the first ages of the Christian Church . I hope he will not be angry with me , for asking him that question about the Scripture , which he asks me about the Council of Trent ; did he never hear of such a thing as the Scripture ? or is it so hard to find it ? But if he hath heard of it , I intreat him to resolve me these Questions . 1. Whether he doth not believe that the books of the New Testament were written at such a time , when the mat●ers of fact therein recorded , were ca●able of being throughly examined ? which he cannot deny upon his own ●rinciple ; for tradition being then in●allible as to the doctrine of Christ , the writers of these books cannot be con●eived to deliver it amiss , unless they ●esolved to contradict the present tradition of the Church , which if they had done , those books could never have found any reception among Christians . If tradition then convey the doctrine of Christ infallibly , these books must convey it infallibly , because they contain in them the infallible tradition of the first age of the Christian Church : and were written at that time when many persons living had been able to disprove any thing contained therein repugnant to truth . And that these books were written by those persons whose names they bear , I appeal to Mr. S's . own rule , Tradition ; for if that be infallible in any thing , it must be in this ; and if one age could conspire to deceive another in a matter of such concernment , what security can be had , that it may not do so in all other things ? 2. Whether he believes that those whose intention was to write an account of the life , actions and doctrine of Christ , did leave any thing out of their books which did relate to them as of concernment for us to believe ? For upon Mr. S's principles , any one may easily know what the tradition of the Church is ; and especially such certainly who were either present themselves at the matters of fact , or heard them from those who were ; and what satisfaction can any one desire greater then this ? But the question is , whether this testimony were not more safely deposited in the Church to be conveyed by word of mouth , then it could be by being committed to writing by such who were eye and ear-witnesses o● the actions and doctrine of Christ ? Upon which I advance some further Queries . 3. If oral Tradition were the more certain way , why was anything written at all ? it may be Mr. S. will tell us , for moral instructions , and to give precepts of good life ; bu● then why may not these be as infallib● conv●yed by tradition as doctrines of faith ? And why then were any matters of fact and points of faith inserted in the books of the New Testament ? by which it certainly appears that the intention of writing them was to preserve them to posterity . Let Mr. S. tell me whether it was consistent with the wisdom of men , much less with the wisdom of an Infinite Being to imploy men to do that , which might be far better done another way , and when it is done can give no satisfaction to the minds of men ? 4. Whether those things which are capable of being understood when they are spoken , cease to be so when they are written ? For Mr. S. seems to understand those terms of a living voice , and dead letters in a very strict and rigorous manner ; as though the sense were only quick when spoken , and became buried in dead letters . But Mr. S. seems with the sagacious Indian to admire how it is possible for dead letters and unsenc'd characters to express mens meanings as well as words . It cannot enter into Mr. S's . apprehension how 24. letters by their various disposition can express matters of faith ? And yet to increa● the wonder , he writes about matte● of faith , while he is proving that matters of faith cannot be conveyed b● writing . So that Mr. S's . own writing is the best demonstration against himself ; and he confutes his own Sophistr● with his fingers , as Diogenes did Zeno● by his motion . For doth Mr. S. hop● to perswade men that tradition is ● rule of faith by his book or not ? i● not , to what purpose doth he write ● if he doth , then it is to be hoped so● matters of faith may be intelligibly conveyed by writing ; Especially if Mr. S. doth it ; but by no means we are t● believe that ever the Spirit of God ca● do it . For whatever is written by me● assisted by that , is according to him bu● a heap of dead letters , and insignifican● characters ; when Mr. S. the mean while is full of sense and de●onstration . Happy man that can thus out-do in●nite wisdom , and write far beyond either Prophets or Apostles ! But if he will condescend so far as to allow that to inspired persons which he confidently believes of himself , viz. that he can write a book full of sense , and that any ordinary capacity may apprehend the design of it , our controversie is at an end . For then matters of faith may be intelligibly and certainly conveyed to posterity by the books of Scripture ; and if so , there will be no need of any recourse to oral Tradition . 5. If the books of s●ripture did not certainly and intelligibly convey all matters of faith , what made them be received with so much veneration in the first ages of the Christian Church ? which were best able to judge of the truth of the matters contained ●n them , and the usefulness of the books themselves . And therein we still find that appeals were made to them , that they thought themselves concerned to vindicate them against all objections of Heathens and others ; and the resolution of faith was made into them , and not tradition , as I have already manifested , and must not repeat . 6. Whether it be in the least credible , since the books of Scripture were supposed to contain the doctrines of faith , that every age of the Church should look on it self as obliged absolutely to believe the doctrine of the precedent by vertue of an oral tradition ? For since they resolved their faith into the written books , how is it possible they should believe on the account of an oral tradition ? Although then the Apostles did deliver the doctrine of Christ to all their disciples ; yet since the records of it were embraced in the Church , men judged of the truth or falsehood of doctrines , by the conveniency or repugnancy of them to what was contained in those books . By which we understand that the obligation to believe what was taught by the precedent age , did not arise from the oral tradition of it , but by the satisfaction of the present age , that the doctrine delivered by it was the same with that contained in S●ripture . It is time now to return to Mr. S. who proceeds still to manifest this obligation in posterity to believe what was delivered as matter of faith , by the precedent age of the Church ; but the force of all is the same still ; viz. that otherwise one age must conspire to deceive the next . But the inconsequence of that , I have fully shewed already , unless he demonstrates it impossible for errors to come in any other way : For if we reduce the substance of what he saith to a Syllogistical form , it comes to this ; Where there is no possibility of error , there is an absolute obligation to faith ; but there is no possibility of error in the tradition of any age of the Church . Ergo in every age there is an absolute obligation to believe the tradition of the present Church . The minor he thus proves . If no age of the Church can be ignorant of what the precedent taught , or conspire to deceive the next , then there is no possibility of error coming into the tradition of the Church in any age ; but the antecedent is true , and therefore the consequent . Now who sees not that the force of all this , lyes not in proving the minor proposition , or that no age could conspire to deceive another ? but the consequence , viz. that no error can come into a Church , but by a general mistake in one whole age , or the general imposture of it , which we utterly deny : and have shewed him already the falsness of it from his own concessions . And I might more largely shew it from those doctrin●s or opinions which they themselves acknowledge to have come into their Church without any such general mistake or imposture , as the doctrines of Papal Insallibility , and the common belief of Purgatory . The very same way that Mr. White and Mr. S. will shew us how these came in , we will shew him how many others came in as erroneous and scandalous as those are . For whether they account these matters of faith or no , it is certain many among them do , and that the far greatest number , who assert and believe them to be the doctrine of their Church too . If therefore these might come in without one age mistaking or deceiving the next , why might not all those come in the same way which we ●harge upon them as the errors of their Church ? And in the same manner that corrupt doctrines come in , may corrupt practises too , since these , as he saith , spring srom the other . He might therefore have saved himself the trouble of finding out how an acute Wit , or great Scholar would discover the weakness of this way . For without pretending to be either of these , I have found out another way of attaquing it , then Mr. S. looked for : viz. from his own principles and concessions ; shewing how errors might come into a Church , without a total deception or conspiracy in any one age . Which if it be true , he cannot bind me to believe what ever he tells me the present Church delivers , unless he can prove that this never came into the Church as a speculation or private opinion , and from thence by degrees hath come to be accounted a point of faith . Therefore his way of proof is now quite altered , and he cannot say we are bound to believe whatever the present Church delivers ; for that which he calls the present Church , may have admitted speculations and private opinions into doctrines of faith ; but he must first prove such doctrines delivered by Christ or his Apostles , and that from his time down to our age they have been received by the whole Church for matters of faith ; and when he hath done this , as to any of the points in controversie between us , I will promise him to be his Proselyte . But he ought still to remember that he is not to prove it impossible for one whole age to conspire to deceive the next ; but that supposing that , it is impossible for any errors to come into the tradition of the Church . Let us now see what Mr. S. objects against those words I then used , against the demonstrating this way ; It is hard to conceive what reason should inforce it but such as proves the impossibility of the contrary ; and they have understandings of another mould from others who can conceive it impossible men should not think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors . And whatever Mr. S. sayes to the contrary , I cannot yet see , but that therein I argued from the very nature and constitution of the thing . For that which ● looked for , was a demonstration , which I supposed could not be unless the impossibility of the contrary were demonstrated . But if it be possible , for men , Christians , nay Romanists to believe on other accounts then the tradition of the precedent age , I pray what demonstration can there be , that men must think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors did ? Surely if Mr. S's . fancy had not been very extravagant , he could never have thought here of mens being obliged to cut their Beards , or wear such Garters and Hat-bands as their fore-fathers did . For do I not mention believing first and then doing ? by which it were easie to apprehend , that I meant matters of faith , and such practises as flow from them . Neither was there any such crafty and sophistical dealing as he charges me with ; for I am content his doctrine be taken in his own terms ; and I have now given a larger and fuller account why I am far from being convinced by the way he hath used for resolving faith . Passing by therefore his challenge , which I accept of , as long as he holds to the weapon of reason and civility , I come to consider his last enquiry , why I should come to doubt of such an obligation in posterity to believe their ancestors in matters of faith ; and he judiciously resolves it into a strange distortion of human nature , but such as it seems , is the proper effect of the Protestants temper , which is , saith he , to chuse every one his faith , by his private judgement or wit working upon disputable words . Which as far as we own it , is , not to believe what we see no ground for ; and if this be such a distortion of humane nature , I envy not Mr. S's . uprightness and perfection . If he means that we build our faith on our private judgements in opposition to Scripture or the Universal Tradition of the Church in all ages , let him prove it evidently in one particular , and I engage for my self and all true Protestants , we will renounce the belief of it . If he hath any thing further to object against the Grounds of our Religion , he knows where to attaque me ; let him undertake the whole ; or else acknowledge it a most unreasonable thing thus to charge falsities upon us , and then say we have nothing else to say for our selves . We pretend not to chuse our faith , but heartily embrace whatever appears to have been delivered by Christ or his Apostles ; but we know the Church of Rome too well to believe all which she would impose upon us , and are loth to have her chuse our Religion for us , since we know she hath chosen so ill for her self . But if Mr. S. will not believe me in saying thus , what reason have I to believe him in saying otherwise ? such general charges then signifie nothing , but every one must judge according to the reason on both sides . I now come to the last part of my task ; which is to shew , that this way is repugnant to common sense and experience , and that the Church of Rome hath apparently altered from what was the belief of former ages . To which purpose my words are : It is to no purpose to prove the impossibility of motion when I see men move ; no more is it to prove that no age of the Church could vary from the preceding , when we can evidently prove that they have done it . And therefore this argument is intended only to catch easie minds that care not for a search into the history of the several ages of the Church , but had rather sit down with a superficial subtilty , then spend time in further enquiries . But two things Mr. S. tells me , are required ere I can see that their faith varies from the former . First to see what their Church holds now , and then to see what the former Church held before ; and he kindly tells me , if he sees any thing , I see neither well . It seems I want Mr. S's . spectacles of oral tradition to see with ; but as yet I have no cause to complain of the want of them , but ● see much better without them , the● with them . He tells me , I cannot see what their present Church holds , an● therefore I cannot assure any what w● held before ; because if I renounce tradition I take away all means of knowing . The reason why I cannot candidly see ( as he phrases it ) what their Church holds now , is , because I cannot distinguish between faith and its explication , some Schoolmen and the Church . By which it seems it is impossible for me to know what their Church holds concerning Invocation of Saints , Worship of Images , Communion in one kind ; for those are the points I there mention , wherein it is evident that the Church of Rome hath receded from the doctrine and practise of the Primitive Church . Or are these only the opinions and practises of some Schoolmen among them , and not the doctrine and practise of their Church ? But that we might come to some fuller state of these controversies , I wish M. S. would settle some sure way whereby we might know distinctly what are the doctrines and practises of their Church . If the Council of Trent and Roman-Catechism , be said to be the rule of doctrine , I desire no other ; so that those may be interpreted by practises universally allowed among them . As when that Council only defined that due honour be given to Saints , the general practise of that Church may tell us what they mean by that due honour ; and if that be not fair , I know not what is . But I see all the shift Mr. S. hath , is , when he is pinched , . to say those are the opinions of Schoolmen and private speculators , and not the doctrine of their Church . And if such shifts as these are , must serve the turn , I should wonder if ever he be to seek for an answer . But the shortest answer of all would be that none but those of their Church can know what she holds ; and therefore it is to no purpose for Protestants to write against her : or it may be , that none but Mr. S. and one or two more can tell ; for many among them say , those are the doctrines of their Church which they deny to be . So that except Mr. White and Mr. S. and some very few demonstrators more , all the rest are Schoolmen , private opinators , and not to be relyed on . But I cannot see what their Church held formerly neither . No wonder at all of that ; for if I cannot see an object so near me as the present Church , how can it be expected I should see one so much further off as the doctrine of former ages ? And his reason is so strong as may well perswade me out of one at least of my five senses . For , saith he , if I question tradition , I question whether there be any doctrine delivered , and so any Fathers . And is not this argued like a Demonstrator ? First he supposes there never was any way used in the world but oral tradition , and then strongly infers , if I deny that , I can know nothing . But I can yet hardly perswade my self that the Fathers only sate in Chimney corners teaching their Children by word of mouth , and charging them to be sure to do so to theirs ; but as they loved preserving the doctrine of faith , they should have a great care never to write down a word of it . But why I wonder , should Mr. S. think that if I do not allow of ●ral tradition , I must needs question whether there were any Fathers ? I had thought I might have known there had ●een Fathers by their Children ; I mean ●he Books they left behind them . But if ●ll Mr. S. pleads for be only this , that ●o books can be certainly conveyed ●ithout tradition , he disputes with●ut an adversary ; but as I never op●ose this , so I am sure it doth him lite service . It is then from the books ●f the Fathers that I find what the sense ●f the Church of their age was , and ●om thence I have shewed how vastly ●ifferent the opinions and practises of ●e Roman Church are from those of ●e Primitive . Although then I may ●ot think my self obliged to believe ●ll that the present Church delivers for ●atter of faith ; yet I hope I may find ●hat the opinions and practise of the ●ormer Church were by the records ●hat are left of it ; And the reason ●hy I cannot think any one obliged ●o believe what every age of the ●hurch delivers , is , because I think no man obliged to believe contradictions ; and I see the opinions and practises of several ages apparently contrary to each other . Well , but I call this way a superficial subtilty : and so I think it still ; so little have Mr. S's . demonstrations wrought upon me . But , saith he , is that which is wholly built on the nature of things superficial ? No ; but that which pretends to be so built , may . And of that nature I have shewed thi● way to be , and not the former . Bu● that I may not think him Superficia● as well as his way , he puts a profound Question to me , What do I think Controversie is ? and that he may the better let me know what it is , he answers himself . I deal plainly with you , saith he ; you may take it to be an a● of talking , and I think you do so , though you will not profess it ; but I take it to be a noble science . But to let him see that I will deal as plainly with him , as he doth with me , I will profess it , that I not only think Controversie as usually managed , but some mens way of demonstrating ( Mr. S. may easily know whom I mean ) to be a meer art of ●alking , and nothing else . But he takes ●t to be a noble science : yes doubtless , ●f Mr. S. manage it , and he be the ●udge of it himself . His meaning I ●uppose is , by his following words , ●hat be goes upon certain principles , and ●e do not . We have already seen how ●ertain his principles have been , and I ●hould be somewhat ashamed of my ●eligion if I had no better . But what ●ur rule of faith is , hath been so amply ●iscoursed already by you , and that in ●r . S's . clearing method , that nothing ● left for me to do , but to touch at ●hat remains , and concludes this an●er . I had the better to illustrate ●he weakness of that argument from ●ral tradition , brought an instance in ●hat case parallel , viz. that if one ages ●elivering to another would prove that ●e faith of Christ was in every age ●nalterable , because no age did testifie ●ny such alteration to be in it ; by ●he same argument the world might be ●roved eternal , because no age did ●ver testifie to another , that the world ●as ever otherwise then it is . So that ●f oral tradition were only to be relied on , there could be no evidence given of the worlds being ever otherwise then it is , and consequently the world must be believed to have been alwayes what we see it is . This a● far as I can apprehend , is a clear and distinct ratiocination , and purposely designed to prove that we must admit o● other rules to judge of alterations i● the Church by besides oral tradition ▪ But Mr. S. ( in his own expression ) strangely roving from the mark I aime● at , professes there is not a tittle in i● parallel to his medium , nay that he never saw in his life more absurdities couche● in fewer words . But I must take al● patiently from a man who still perche● on the specifical nature of things and never flags below the sphere of science . Yet by his good leave , he either apprehends not , or wilfully mistakes my meaning : for my argument doth no● proceed upon the belief of the world● eternity , which in his answer he run● wholly upon as far as eighthly and lastly but upon the evidence of oral tradition as to no discernable alteration in an● age of it . For the Question between us● is , whether in matters of alteration i● the fa● or practice of the Church we are bound to rely only on the testimony of oral tradition ; so that if no age can be instanced in wherein any alteration was made , and this delivered by that age , then we are bound to believe there hath been no alteraration since Christ and the Apostles times : now I say , if this ●old good , I will prove the world eternal by the same argument ; taking this for our principle , that we are bound to rely only on oral tradition in the case , originally derived from the matter of fact seen by those of the first age ; for that which never was otherwise then it is , is eternal ; but we cannot know by oral tradition that the world ever was otherwise then it is : for no age of the world can be instanced in , wherein we have any testimony of any alteration that was in it ▪ Either then we must believe that the world ever was what it is , i. e. Eternal ; or else we must say , that we are not to rely barely on oral tradition in this case , but we must judge whether the world were made or no , by other mediums of Scripture and reason . And this was all which I aimed at , viz. to shew that where there is no evidence from oral tradition , yet if there be Scripture and reason , there is sufficient ground for our faith to stand upon . And so I apply it to the present case ; though we could not prove barely from the tradition of any one age that there had been any alteration in the faith or practice of the Church ; yet if I can prove that there hath been such from Scripture and reason , this is sufficient for me to believe it . And now I dare appeal to the indifferent Reader , ●ether thi● be so full of absurdities , or it b● such a rambling Chimerical argumen● ( as he calls it ) no two pieces ● which hang together with themselves 〈◊〉 any thing else . Which being expressions of as great modesty as science ▪ I am content Mr. S. should bear away the honour of them and his demo●strations together . The last thing he quarrels wit● me for , is , that I say , if we can ●v dently prove that there have been al● rations in the Church , then it is to ● purpose to prove that impossible which we see actually done . And this appears not only because the Scripture supposes a degeneracy in the Christian Church , which could never be , if every age of the Church did insa●libly believe and practise as the precedent up to Christs time did : but because we can produce clear evidence that some things are delivered by the present Church which must be brought in by some age since the time of Christ. For which I refer the Reader to what I had said about communion in one kind , Invocation of Saints , and worship of Images : In all which , I say , I had proved evidently that they were not in use in some ages of the Christian Church ; and it is as evident that these are delivered by the present Church , and therefore this principle must needs be false . In answer to this , Mr. S. wishes , I would tell him first what evidence means , whether a strong fancy or a demonstration ? I mean that which is enough to perswade a wise man who judges according to the clearest reason , which I am sure is more then ever his demonstrations will do . But it is a pleasant spectacle to see how Mr. S. layes about him at my saying that the Scripture supposes a degeneracy in the Christian Church . Incomparably argued ! saith he ; why , see we not the place ? does it evidently speak of faith or manners , the Universal Church or particular persons ? but be it in faith , be it universal , does it suppose this degeneracy already past , which is only proper to your purpose , or yet to come ? That is , does it say there must be a total Apostacy in faith before the year 1664. ? Alas he had forgot this . Most incomparably answered ! For if the degeneracy be in 1665. or any years a●ter , what becomes of M. S's . d●monstration then , that no errors could come into the Church ? but it seems his demonstration holds but till 1664. and I easily believe an other year will never believe the truth of it . But if such a thing as a degeneracy be possible , how then stands the infallibility of tradition ? when there can be no degeneracy without falling from the doctrine and practices of Christ and his Apostles . But that such a degeneracy hath already been in that which calls it self the Catholick Church , and that both in faith and manners , I shall referr Mr. S. to the learned Author of the late Idea of Antichristianism , and Synopsis Prophetica , where he may find enough to perswade him that his demonstration was far from holding so long as 1664. And now I leave the Reader to judge whether the foregoing evidences against the infallibility of oral tradition , or Mr. S's . demonstrations have the greater force of reason in them . And if he will not stoop so far from the height of his perch as to take notice of what I have elsewhere said , I am resolved to let him see I am not at all concerned about it : I begin to understand him so well by this Appendix , that I can give my self a reasonable account why he thought it not sit to meddle with any other part of my book . But if Mr. S. be resolved not to answer any of the testimonies I there produce , unless I single them out and print them at the end of this Answer , ( i. e. remove them from that evidence which attends them in the series of the discourse ) I can only say , he is the most imperious answerer I have met with , who is resolved never to deal with an adversary , but on his own unreasonable terms . Thus , heartily wishing Mr. S's . Science as great as his opinion of it , and a good effect of our endeavours to promote the one , by removing the other , I am Sir , Your affectionate friend and servant , Edward Stillingfleet . London . June 28. FINIS . Postscript . SIR , SInce the dispatch of the former Papers , I have met with another Treatise , wherein I find my self concerned , written by the author of Fiat Lux , the Title whereof is Diaphanta : I am afraid the Title affrights you ; for I assure you it is the most formidable thing in his whole Book . But the man is a very modest man and hugely different from Mr. S's . humor ; for he is so far from offering to demonstrate the grounds of faith ; that all he pretends to in the title of his book , i● to excuse Catholick Religion against the opposition of several Adversaries . What fault I pray hath the Catholick Religion committed , that it must now come to be excused inst●ad of being defended ? But when I look into that part which concerns my self , I presently understand the meaning of it , which is not to excuse Catholick Religion , but themselves , for not being able to defend it . For he very ingenuously tells us , that faith is firm and constant , though all his talk for it be miserably weak : i. e. he is sure they have an excellent Religion , though he knows not what to say for it ; and their faith is a very good faith , but it hath not yet had the good fortune to be understood by them . For he acknowledges , that as often as they dispute , they are beyond the business , ( so may any one believe , who reads their late books , ) which is in effect to say , there is no way left of disputing any longer with adversaries about their faith ; only they must believe it stoutly themselves ; but it is to no purpose to offer to defend it . Nay , it doth their faith a great deal of mischief ; for , saith he , in reading controversies we see not so much the nature of the faith , as the wit of him who opposes or defends it . From whence we may easily gather what unspeakable mischief they do their cause by writing for it . By which expressions we may guess , at what a low ebbe the defence of their faith is among them : for the way now taken to defend it , is by disowning the defenders of it , and by saying , that they only vent their own opinions ; and though we confute them never so much , yet their faith holds good still . Was ever a good cause driven to such miserable shifts as these are , especially among those who pretend to wit and learning ? One , he saith , T. C. vents a private opinion of his own , and it is not a pin matter whether it stand or fall ; another , he saith , the same of I. S. a third of J. V. C. and yet for all this , their religion is very firm and sure , and they all at perfect agreement about it . Is this the victory over me Mr. S. mentions to be so easie a thing ? I see that by the same figure Mr. S. calls his way of arguing demonstration , running out of the field shall be accounted conquering . For I never saw any person do it more openly then this author does . For he plainly confesses , that his Catholick Gentleman went quite besides his business , that he built upon indefensible principles , that his theological ratiocination was indeed pretty , but too weak to hold . And are not we hugely too blame , if we do not cry up such mighty Conquerors as these are ? Truly Sir , I expect the very same answer should be returned to your book ; that Mr. S's . argument , is a pretty theological ratiocination ; and that your answer is not unwitty : but though that way will not hold , another will. Thus when they are beaten off Infallibility , they run to Tradition : and when they are again beaten off Tradition , then back again to Infallibility . So that the short of all their answers is , though such a one cannot defend our faith , yet I can ; though I cannot , yet the fai●●s firm and constant still . I wonder what their Superiors think of this ●ay of proceeding among them ; we ●hould imagine if they be so weak ●s they say themselves , they had much ●etter keep them from appearing ●broad and exposing their cause so ●idiculously to contempt . But it may ●e , they think their faith is the bet●er as well as their devotion , for their ●gnorance : and that it would be a ●ighty disparagement to their cause , ●or such silly people to be able to de●end it . It is enough for them to ●dmire it themselves , and to say as ●heir common people use to do , though ●hey cannot defend it , yet there are ●ome that can . And although it ●ay be no particular person can do ● , yet their cause is able to defend ● self . But for all that I can see , by ●ck kind of answers , the intention of ●hem , is , to intreat us , not to tri●mph over the weakness of their pre●nt Writers , but to wait till the ●ause it self thinks fit to write . And when it doth so , they may expect further answer ; but it were a grea● piece of cruelty for us to hasten the● ruine , who fall so fast before us b● each others Pens . FINIS . ERRATA . Page 16. l. 16. for that , r. than : p. 2● l. 8. for errors , r. concerns . Books Printed for , and Sold by Henry Mortlock at the Sign of the Phoenix in St. Pauls Church-yard near the little North door . A Rational Account of the ●rounds of Protestant Religion ; being a Vindication of the Lord-Achbishop of Canterburyes Relation of a Conference , &c. from the pretended Answer by T. C. wherein the true Grounds of Faith are cleared , and the false discovered ; the Church of England justified from the imputation of Schism ; and the most Important particular Controversies between us and those of the Church of Rome thoughly Examined : by Edward Stillingflee● B. D. Origines Sacrae ; or a Rational Account of the Grounds of Christian Faith , as to the Truth and Divine Authority of the Scriptures , and the matters therein contained : by the sam Author : The third Edition Correcte● and Amended . Irenicum : A Weapon-Salve for the Churches Wounds : by the same Author . Shecinah : A Demonstration of the Divine Presence in Places of Religious Worship : by J. Stillingfleet Rector of Beckingham in Lincolnshire . The Moral Philosophy of the Stoicks Bain upon the Ephesians . Knowledge and Practice : or a plain Discourse of the chief things necessary to be known , believed and practised in order to salvation : by Sa● Cradock B. D. The second Edition Corrected and Enlarged , &c. The Believers Duty towards the Spirit ; the Sprits Office towards Believers by H. H. B. D. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A61594-e150 §. 1. p. 236. p. 202. §. 2. p. 203. P. 204. § 3. §. 4. P. 205. §. 1. 5. §. 6. p. 203. §. 7. §. 8. p. 05. p. 206. P. 207. §. 9. p. 208. §. 10. De fide & Th●ol . tract . 2 , sect . 22. p. 158. Ibid. P. 209. Tabul . suffrag . p. 318. §. 11. p. 210. §. 12. p. 211. p. 212. p. 213. p. 214. §. 13. p. 216. §. 14. p. 236. p. 217. p. 218. p. 223. §. 15. p. 224. Part. 1. chap. ● . §. 16. ● . 229. &c. p. 231. p. 234. p. 235. p. 236. P. 237. §. 17. p. 238. p. 239. §. 18. p ; 240. p. 241. p. 242. p. 243. §. 19. p. 244. Notes for div A61594-e14160 p. 210. p. 2●9 . 
A26931	----	Full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion in a conference between D. a doubter, P. a papist, and R. a reformed Catholick Christian : in four parts ... / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1674 Approx. 400 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 106 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-02 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26931 Wing B1272 ESTC R15922 12544878 ocm 12544878 63024 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A26931) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63024) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 305:7) Full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion in a conference between D. a doubter, P. a papist, and R. a reformed Catholick Christian : in four parts ... / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. [24], 189 p. Printed for Nev. Simmons ..., London : 1674. First ed. Cf. NUC pre-1956. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. (from t.p.) I. The true stating of our difference -- II. The true easie and full justification of the reformed or Protestant religion -- III. The Protestants reasons and charges against popery enumerated -- IV. The first charge, viz. against transubstantiation made good. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Protestantism. 2005-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-10 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-11 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-11 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-01 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Full and Easie SATISFACTION WHICH IS THE TRUE AND SAFE RELIGION . In a CONFERENCE Between D. A DOUBTER , P. A PAPIST , and R. A REFORMED CATHOLICK CHRISTIAN . In Four Parts : I. The true stating of our Difference , and opening what each Religion is . II. The true easie and full Justification of the Reformed or Protestant Religion . III. The Protestants Reasons and Charges against Popery , enumerated . IV. The first Charge , viz. Against Transubstantiation made good : In which Popery is proved to be the SHAME OF HUMANE NATURE , notoriously contrary to SENSE , REASON , SCRIPTURE and TRADITION , or the Judgement of the Antient and the Present Church ; devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels . By Richard Baxter . London , Printed , for Nev. Simmons , at the Princes Arms in St. Pauls Church-yard . 1674. and still continueth so to do . And while I can say , that I know of no Nobleman living who hath read more of my Writings than You have done , all that know the End of Writing , will consent , that there is no Noble Name which I should prefer . And as I long ago read in the Learned Spanhemius's Dedication of his Dubia Evangelica p. 3. to You ( well joyned with the famous Usher ) the predication of Your Judicium supra aetatem maturum , rerum omnium cognitione subactum pectus , and that as attested by the Illustrious Duke of Rohane , the Most Sagacious Arbiter of ingenies ; And years and experience have been long adding to Your knowledge : Being not a stranger to the Truth of this my self , I have great reason to be Ambitious to stand right in Your esteem : ( For who reverenceth the Judgement of ignorant Readers ? Or doth not reverence the Judgement of the Wise ? ) And therefore to give You an account of my self and of this writing ; Since I overgrew that Religion which is taken up most on humane trust , by increasing knowledge I increased mens displeasure ; and my judgement not falling just into the mold of any Sect among Church-dividers , there is scarce any Sect which doth not , according to their various interests , signifie their displeasure . Some only by Magisterial Censures ; more credibly acquainting the world , what they are themselves , than what I am , or what is my judgement . But from others I take a meer slander for Clemency , and as Philostratus saith , de Dicto Phavorini ) Et dum Socratis cicutam non bibam , aereâ privari statuâ non laedit . Simple Christianity is my Religion : I determine to know nothing but Christ Crucified ( and Glorified . ) And I am past all doubt , that till simple Christianity become the terms of Church-Unity and Concord , the Church will never see Unity or Concord , which shall prove universal or durable . So certain am I , that the Wits of the Learned , much less of the Community of vulgar Christians , will never arrive at the stature , of Concord , in numerous and difficult points : Nor the marvellous diversity of Educations , occasions , temperatures and capacities , be ever united in any thing but what is plain and simple . And as Certain am I , that the Universal Conscience of true believers will never unite , in any thing which is not evidently divine . And yet as certain am I , that the forsaking of the determination of the Holy Ghost and the Apostles , Acts 15.28 . and of Pauls Decision , Rom. 14. & 15. hath been the Engine of Church-Divisions and many calamitous distractions to this day : And that that blessed Prince who must have the honour and comfort of beginning the true healing and Concord of the Churches , must pare off all their superfluities , and leave them at best among their things indifferent , and unite them on the terms of simple Christianity . And as to Popery I have certainly found , that the Cross Interests and Passions of Disputers have made us ( though really too distant ) to seem commonly about many Doctrinals more distant than indeed we are : And that it had been better with us , if such men as judicious Ludov. le Blank , had had the stating of our Controversies at the first , that differing words and methods might not have passed with either side for damnable errors in the faith . I mean in the points of fore-knowledge , predestination , providence , predetermination , concurse , original sin , free-will , universal Redemption , sufficient Grace , effectual Grace , the nature of Faith , Justification , Sanctification , Merit , Good Works , Certainty of Justification , and of Salvation , Perseverance , &c. For my knowing this to be true , I am censured by those on one extream , as too favourable to the Papists ( being indeed an Enemy to injury , calumny , uncharitableness or cruelty to any in the world . ) But I am much more displeasing to the Roman party ; Because I know , that One man is naturally uncapable of being the Monarch of all the world : That the King of Rome ( as the Geographia Nubiensis calls him ) was never by Christ made King of Kings and Lord of Lords : That he never was , nor can be a Pastor at the Antipodes , and over all the Earth , or as far as Drake and Candish did Navigate : That it 's a sorry Argument , [ Monarchy is the best Government : Ergo , An universal Monarchy is best : ] That the Government setled in Nature and Scripture , is for Princes to rule Churchmen and all , by the Sword , and the Pastors of all particular Churches , to rule their Congregations by the Church-Keys , that is , by the Word , using Synods for due concord and correspondency : And this much will do better than all the stir that the Clergies Ambition hath made in the world . I know that the Pope standeth on no better a foundation than the other four Patriarchs : And that he was but the chief Prelate or Patriarch in one Empire , as the Archbishop of Canterbury is in England ; And that the Greek Church never took his Primacy in that one Empire to be of Divine Right : For if they had , they had never set up the Patriarch of Constantinople against him , who never claimed his Primacy as jure Divino . I know that the great Council of Chalcedon decreed , Act. 16. Bin. 734. [ We following alwayes the definitions of the holy Fathers and the Canon , have our selves also defined the same things , concerning the Priviledges of the same Most Holy Church of Constantinople , New Rome ; For to the Seat of Old Rome because of the Empire of that City , the Fathers consequently gave the Priviledges : And the one hundred and fifty Bishops most beloved of God , being moved with the same intention , have given equal Priviledges to the Most Holy Seat of New Rome : Reasonably Judging that the City adorned with the Empire and Senate , shall enjoy equal Priviledges with Old Regal Rome . ] I know that their late Bishop of Chalcedon saith ( against Bishop Bramhall , Survey , pag. 69. ) [ To us it sufficeth , that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor ; and this all Fathers testifie . But whether he be so jure Divino vel humano is no point of faith . Vid. Bellarm. 1.2 . de Pont. l. 12. And Holden Analys . fid . l. 1. c. 9. p. 161. Multa sunt quae traditione universa firmiter innituntur ( puta S. Petrum fuisse Romae ) quae revelata non sunt ; ideoque ab articulorum fidei Catholicae numero excluduntur . I know that there never was such a thing as a true Universal Council in the world ( unless Christ and his Apostles were such ) ; nor ever must , or will , or can be . I know that they were called Universal but as to one Empire : and that Emperours called them together , who had nothing to do without that Empire ; and that ( unless accidentally any inconsiderable number ) no Churches out of the Empire were summoned , or sent their Bishops thither : Which needs no other proof than the knowledge of the limits of the Roman Empire , and the Notitiae Episcopatùum , and the Names subscribed to each Council in Binnius and the rest . I know that long ago their Raynerius said ( Cont. Waldens . Catal. in Biblioth . Patrum Tom. 4. p. 773. ) [ The Churches of the Armenians , and Ethiopians , and Indians , and the rest which the Apostles converted , are not under the Church of Rome . ] And that Godignus and others make no doubt but the Abassines had the faith from the dayes of St. Matthew and the Eunuch . I know that Theodoret. Histor . Sanct. Patr. c. 1. saith , [ James the Bishop of Nisibis came to the Synod of Nice ; for Nisibis then obeyed the Roman Empire . ] Nothing can be more plain . I know that Jacob. de Vitriaco ( and others ) say ( Hist . Orient . c. 77. ) that [ the Churches of the Easterly parts of Asia alone exceeded in number the Christians either of the Greek or Latin Churches ] : And that Brochardus that lived at Jerusalem saith , that [ those called Schismaticks by us are far better men than those of the Roman Church . ] And to perswade the Kings of other Kingdoms , that the necessary way of Church-Union , is to unite all their Subject-Churches under the Patriarchs of another Empire , is no wiser than to tell all the world that they must be under the Bishop of Canterbury . I know that it was long ere Our antient Britains , and especially Your Scots , would so much as eat with the Roman Clergy , ( as Beda sheweth . ) And I know that their Melch. Canus saith , ( Loc. Com. cap. 7. fol. 201. ) [ That not only the Greeks , but almost all the rest of the Bishops of the whole world , have fought to destroy the priviledges of the Church of Rome ; And indeed they had on their side both the Arms of Emperours and the greater number of Churches : And yet they could never prevail to abrogate the power of the One Pope of Rome . ] Was this Pope then ( or the Roman Church ) Universal ? Besides that , to this day , they are but about the third or fourth part of the Christian world . And I know that General Councils are their Religion : and what the General approved Council at Lateran sub Innoc. 3. hath Decreed against Temporal Lords and their Dominions , and absolving of their Subjects from their Oaths of Fidelity : Besides what Greg. 7. hath said in his Concil . Rom. of his power to take down and set up Emperours . The knowing of these things , maketh me taken for their enemy . And their Image of Worship in an unknown Tongue , with their Bread-Worship and multitude of ludicrous deceitful toyes , are things which my soul can never be reconciled to : Much less to that renunciation of humanity which hereafter I detect , in the following Treatise . And having given You this Account of my self , I add as to this Treatise , 1. It grieved me to hear that so many refused the Parliaments Declaration against Transubstantiation : And I desired to shew them what it is . 2. Instead of joyning with those who talk much of the danger of Popery in the Land ( to keep it out , ) I thought it better to publish the Reasons which satisfie me against it , and leave the success of all to God. 3. And having occasion to re-print the First Part of my Key for Catholicks , with Corrections , instead of the Name before prefixed , ( of one whose face I never saw , nor ever had a word from , but ignorantly endeavoured to have provoked him to do good ) I thought Your Name fittest to be gratefully substituted , who were the first then that checked my imprudent temerity . Though I was not so vain , as to expect of late in your multitude of greater business , that You should read over my more tedious Writings , I despair not but You may find leisure in perusing this , to see that I have prefixed Your Name to nothing , but what Sense and Reason and Religion do avow . And so Craving Your Pardon for the boldness and tediousness of this Address , I rest , Your Graces humble much obliged Servant , Richard Baxter . August 27. 1673. TO THE READER . THis Dialogue cometh not to you , from an apprehension of any extraordinary excellency of it , as if it did much more than is already done : but as extorted by mens necessity ; 1. Because so many ignorantly turn Papists of late ; 2. And some are pleased to Say ( I dare not say , To Think ) that it is long of men in my condition ; 3. And it is the Art of the Papists ( which our vanity encourageth ) to seek to bring the old Books into oblivion ( which are unanswerable ) and to call still for new . The intended Use of this is , 1. To tell those that will dispute with a Papist , on what terms and in what order to proceed , lest they be cheated into a snare . 2. To teach the Ignorant Doubters truly to understand , wherein the difference between us and the Papists doth indeed consist ; that the talk of Sectaries Calling that which displeaseth them , Popery , nor the scandal of our real or seeming divisions , may not delude them , nor Papists puzzle them by putting them to prove every word in our thirty nine Articles or other Writings . 3. To Resolve all that will be Resolved , by Senses , Reason , Scripture , or the Judgement and Tradition of the Church . Of the multitude of Reasons against Popery enumerated , I have here made good but one , by a special disputation ; because I would not make the Book too big . The rest I shall easily prove in another Volume , if greater work and shortness of life do not hinder it ; ( which I fully expect . ) And lest I have no more opportunity to answer their Charges against us on the other side , I have reprinted and added ( Corrected ) the first part of my Key for Catholicks , where it is long ago done , and never answered . There is extant one Piece of theirs against me , unanswered , called , Mr. Johnson's Rejoynder about the Visibility of the Church : which I seriously profess I have left unanswered , as utterly unworthy of my precious Time , till I have no greater matter to do , which I hope will never be . And he that will well study his opening of the terms in the latter end , will see to how pitiful a case they are reduced . I conclude with this solemn Profession , That I am satisfied of the truth of what I write , and must dye ere long in the faith which I here profess , and lay my hopes of endless happiness on no other way : And that I would joyfully receive any Saving Truth , from Papists or any other , who will bring it me , with such evidence as may make it indeed my own . The Lord Unite us by Truth , Love and Humility . Amen . Septemb. 1. 1673. Richard Baxter . THE CONTENTS . PART I. WHat is the Protestants Religion , and what the Papists ? pag. 1. Chap. 1. The occasion of the Conference : with an humbling consideration to staggerers . ibid. Chap. 2. The Conditions of the Conference . p. 6. Chap. 3. What is the Religion of the Protestants . Of the name Protestant : The Augustane and other Confessions : The thirty nine Articles : The Essentials of Christianity to be distinguished from the Integrals and Accidentals . p. 9. Chap. 4. What is the Papists Religion : out of Veron , Davenport , &c. p. 25. PART II. Fourteen Principles in which the Papists and Protestants seem agreed ; by which the Protestant Religion is by the Papists confessed and maintained to be all true . p. 40. PART III. Twenty five Charges against Popery enumerated , to be all in order proved ; as Reasons why no one that hath Religion , or Sense and Reason , should turn Papist . p. 61. PART IV. The first Charge made good , viz. against Transubstantiation : In which Popery is fully proved to be the shame of Humane Nature ; contrary to SENSE , REASON , SCRIPTVRE and TRADITION , or the Judgement of the antient and the present Church ; devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels . p. 75. Chap. 1. The first Reason to prove that there is Bread after the Consecration , from the certainty of the Intellects Perception by the means of sense . ibid. Twenty Reasons against the denying of common senses . p. 77. Chap. 2. The Papists Answers to all this confuted . p. 88. Chap. 3. The second Argument against Transubstantiation from the contradictions of it . p. 96. Chap. 4. The third Argument from the certain falshood of their multitudes of feigned Miracles in Transubstantiation . Thirty one Miracles in it enumerated ; with Twenty aggravations of those Miracles . p. 99. Chap. 5. The Minor proved , viz. That these Miracles are false or feigned . p. 110. Chap. 6. Arg. 4. Transubstantiation contrary to the express Word of God. p. 117. Chap. 7. Arg. 5. All these Miracles are proofless : yea , the Scripture abundantly directeth us otherwise to expound , This is my Body . p. 123. Chap. 8. Arg. 6. Transubstantiation nullifieth the Sacrament . p. 128. Chap. 9. The Novelty of Transubstantiation , as contrary to the faith of the antient Christians : And the singularity , contrary to the Judgement and Tradition of most of the Christian world . p. 132. Chap. 10. The second part of the Controversie : That it is not Christs very flesh and blood into which the Bread and Wine is turned . p. 146. Chap. 11. The Conclusion : The Scandal of our difference removed . Whether the falshood of one Article prove the Papists foundation false ? Whether it do so by the Protestants ? Whether Papists have any more Infallibility than others ? The necessity of discerning the Essentials of Christianity . The distinction of Explicite and Implicite faith considered . How come so many Princes , Nobles , Learned men , and whole Nations to be Papists ? All Christians besides Papists , are of one Church , though of many opinions . How come so many among us at home of late inclinable to Popery ? What hope of Concord with the Papists ? How to help them off their Councils ? Snares in the point of Transubstantiation . Of their denying the Cup to the Laity . p. 152. Reader , I Hope the Printers Errata are not many , and I am discouraged from gathering them , because I see men had rather err themselves , and calumniate the Author , than take notice of them : So hath Mr. Danvers done by me in a Book against Infant Baptism , where as an Introduction to abundance of mistakes in History , he abuseth his Reader by several scraps of a Book of mine , so curtail'd as to be insufficient to signifie the sense ; And among them feigneth me to write ( Chr. Direct . p. 3. pag. 885. l. 13. [ to Institute Sacraments ] as that which man may do , instead of [ Nor to Institute Sacraments ] ; and so maketh his credulous flock to believe that I assert that very thing which I write against : Though the place was markt with a Star in the Errata , and the Reader desired specially to Correct it . But such dealing is now grown so common with such men , that we must bear it as the effect of their disease . PART . I. What is the Protestants Religion , and what the Papists . CHAP. I. The occasion of the Conference . D. SIR , I am come to crave your help in a matter of great importance to me : I was bred a Protestant ; but the Discourses of some Roman Catholicks , have brought me into great doubts , whether I have not been all this while deceived : And though I cannot dispute the case my self with you , I desire you to dispute it in my hearing with a Catholick Priest whom I shall bring to you . R. With all my heart : But let me first ask you a few Questions . Quest . 1. Did you ever understand what the Protestants Religion is ? D. I take it to be the 39 Articles , Liturgie and Government of the Church of England . R. No wonder if you be easily drawn to doubt of that Religion which you no better understand . Can you hold it , and not know what it is ? Quest . 2. Do you know what it is to be a Christian ? D. It is to believe in Christ , and to Love and obey Him. Our Baptism is our Christening . R. Very true : And in your Baptism you are Dedicated and Vowed to God the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , renouncing the Lusts of the Flesh , the World and the Devil . Quest . 3. And have you been a true Christian , and lived according to this Vow ? Have you obeyed God more than the desires of your flesh ? Have you preferred the Kingdom of Heaven before all the pleasures , honours and riches of this world ? Have you sincerely submitted to the healing saving Doctrine , Law and example of Christ , and to the sanctifying motions of his Holy Spirit ? And have you lived soberly , righteously , and Godlily in the world , and made it your care and business to deny your self , and mortifie all fleshly inordinate desires , as it is the care of sensual men to gratifie them ? D. I have had my faults as all men have ; but I hope none can say but I have lived honestly towards all ; And if I have been faulty in drinking , sports or gaming , it hath been to no ones injury but my own . R. I ask you not whether you are a sinner ; For so are all men . But whether you are a truly Penitent , Converted sinner ; and whether yet you are true to your Baptismal Vow and Covenant ? Can your Conscience say , that you Love , and Trust and obey God , and your Redeemer , before all the world ; and that you love not Pleasure , Riches and Honour , more than God and Holiness and Heaven ? and that it is more of the care and business of your life , to Know and Love and serve God better , and to make sure of your salvation , than to please your flesh , or prosper in the world ? In a word ; Do you heartily and in your practice , take God for your God , even for your All , and Christ , for your Teacher , King and Saviour , and the Holy Ghost for your Sanctifier , turning in heart and life , from the Devil , the world , and the sinful pleasures of the flesh ? This is the question which I desire you to answer . But I will prevent your answer lest you mistake my purpose , and think I make my self your Confessour , and I will tell you why I ask the question . Either you have thus Kept your Baptismal Vow , by a Godly life , or else you have broken it by worldliness and sensuality , &c. If you have kept it , and are a truly Godly person , you have resolved your own doubt , and absolutely confuted Popery already . For no honest man and true Christian can possibly turn Papist without gross contradiction . D. How prove you that . R. Most easily : I pray you do but mark : 1. It is their principal Doctrine that the Pope is the Head of the Universal Church on earth ; and that the Church subjected to him , is the Universal Church ; and that out of that Church there is no salvation ; and that no one is a true member of Christ and his Church , who is not a subject of the Pope . 2. And they all confess that every one shall be saved that is a true Christian , and keepeth his Baptismal Covenant , and that Loveth God above all . So that they must needs hold that none in the world but Papists , do truly Love God , & keep that Covenant , and are true Christians . Now if you can know that you have the true Love of God , and are true to your Baptism , you must needs confess that Popery is false , which saith that none Love God above all but Papists . D. But what if I have not Loved God , and obeyed him , above my flesh ? R. I 'le tell you what followeth . 1. It is no wonder if you forsake the Protestants Religion , who never truly entertained it . If your Heart and Life were not devoted unfeignedly to God , you were no true Christian , nor indeed had any true Religion at all : And he that hath no Religion , turneth from none which he truly had . If you were never a true Christian , you were never a true Protestant : And then what wonder if you turn Papist ? For you have no experimental Knowledge of that Religion which you seem to forsake . 2. And how could you expect better , but that God should penally forsake you , and give you over to believe deceits , if you have dealt so falsly and deceitfully with him , as to live to the world and flesh which you renounced , and neglect that God and Saviour and sanctifier to whom you were so solemnly devoted ? And if you have been so treacherous and unwise , as to prefer a bruitish transitory pleasure , before Gods Love and the Joyes of Heaven ? 3. And what honour is it to the Church of Rome , that none but Infidels and false-hearted hypocrites , and perfidious breakers of their Covenant with God , did ever turn to them ? If you turn Papist , you confess that you were a wicked hypocrite before . 4. But the chief thing which I would tell you is , that turn up and down as oft as you will , to this Church or that Church , to this side or that side , you will never be saved , unless you become a holy , serious , mortified Christian : As long as you love pleasures , wealth and honour more than God and Holiness and Heaven , you shall never be saved , whether you be Papist , or a professed Protestant . It would make the heart of a Christian ake , to see so many thousands cheated by the Devil , to take this opinion or that opinion , called the true faith , and this side or that side , called the true Church , to be to them instead of a holy heavenly heart and life . And how many thousands , especially Papists , that are truly of no Religion , do dispute , and plot and disquiet the world , as for Religion . To hear a prophane man swear that his Religion is right ; or that man to think to be saved for being of the true Church and faith , whose heart was never set on Heaven , but liveth in drunkenness , lying , idleness , fornication , and thinketh that the Priests absolution sets all right again . Without true Holiness no man shall be saved , what Church soever he joyn with ; and with it no man shall be damned . For God cannot hate them that have his nature , and Image . D. Well sir : I came not to dispute with you , but to desire you to meet a Roman Catholick Priest , that I may hear you both together . R. I have the greater hopes of you , because you have so much regard of your soul , as to be willing to hear what can be said . For most that turn to them , never come to an impartial tryal , but rashly follow the deceiver , or stay till they are secretly hardened by false insinuations , and then take on them to desire to hear both , when they are first resolved to be gone . But you must tell me what is the question that you desire should be disputed . D. I would know whether the Papists or the Protestants be the True , and safe Religion ? R. I undertake to give you that plain undenyable evidence for your resolution , which should fully satisfie any reasonable man , at least that professeth himself a Christian : so be it you will perform these reasonable conditions : 1. That you will be impartially willing to know the truth . 2. That you will honestly resolve to Live according to it when you know it , and to be True to the True Religion . 3. That you will bring such a man to confer with me , who will yield to the Reasonable Conditions of a disputant , such as your Doubt and the nature of the matter doth notoriously require , and not a Knave , and studied Deceiver , who will set himself purposely to hide the truth . D. These conditions are so reasonable that I must not deny them . CHAP. II. The Conditions of the Conference ; between a P. and R. and D. R. SIR , I am desired by this person , who is brought by some of you to doubt of our Religion , to debate this Case with you in order to his satisfaction , Whether the Papists or the Protestants be the True and Safe Religion ? P. That is too large a Question : We cannot dispute of all our Religion at once : I will begin with you , about some one of the Articles of the Church of England , or the Visibility of your Church in all Ages , or the Resolution of your faith , &c. And this I will do only on these conditions , 1. That you bring some express Text of Scripture , which without your Interpretation , Reasonings or Consequences , doth assert that Article of yours which I shall accuse , or contradict any Article of our faith , which shall be questioned . 2. Or if you will go from the express words to Reasoning , that we keep to the strictest Rules of Logick , and that you use nothing but Syllogism , and that all be done in writing , and not by word of mouth . R. Neighbour D. you promised me to bring another kind of Disputant : You hear his conditions : you shall hear my answer . 1. The Case which you told me you were in doubt of , and desired satisfaction in , was Which is the True and Safe Religion ? This he refuseth to Dispute . Pretending that we cannot dispute of our whole Religion at once . But did you never hear him give any Reasons against our Religion ? If he have , Why can he not do it now ? I expect not all in a word , but let him give them one by one , and say his worst . I am sure I can give you many against theirs : And we will after debate them particularly as largely as you please . 2. If Writing be it that you desire for your satisfaction , I ask you , whether you have read all , or the fourth part , of what is written against Popery already . Have you read Dr. Challoner of the Catholick Church ? Dr. White , Dr. Field , Dr. Downame of Antichrist , Chillingworth , Dr. Abbot , Dr. Willet , Bishop Vsher , Bishop Morton , Dr. Stillingfleet , and an hundred more ? Why should I expect that you should read what I shall write , if you will not read what 's written already ? 3. Can you stay so long unresolved without injury to your soul , till he and I have done writing ? You cannot but know , that from Sheets we must proceed to the writing of Volumes , in answering each other , as others have done . And this is like to be many years work , for men that have other business : And how know you that we shall all Live so long ? 4. Are you able when it cometh to tedious Volumes to examine them , and find who is in the right ? Or will you not rather take him to conquer , who hath the last word ? And it 's like that will be the longest liver ? 5. And as to a strict syllogistical form , do you understand that best ? I avoid it not , but shall consent to use it as far as you understand it . Do you know all the Logical forms of arguing , all Moods and Figures , and all the fallacies ? Or do you not perceive , that you have broken your promise with me , and brought a friend of darkness , who cometh purposely to hide the truth ? D. I must needs profess , that the Question which I would have debated , is , Which is the True and Safe Religion ? And that it is not tedious writings , nor long delayes , but present conference which must satisfie me . And that it is plain Scripture and Reason that must satisfie me , who understand not Logick . I pray let me hear your own Conditions which you think more just . R. The Conditions which the nature of the Cause directeth us to , are these . I. That we first truly state the question to be disputed : For we cannot dispute till we are agreed of what : That is , 1. That we agree what we mean by our [ Religion ] ; and 2. That I tell you , what is the Religion of Protestants , which I undertake to defend : And that he tell us what is the Religion of the Romanists , which must be compared with it . II. That our Conference consist of these several parts . 1. That premising the principles in which we are agreed , I tell you the Reasons why you should not be a Papist . 2. That he tell you the Reasons why you should turn Papist , or what he hath against Our Religion . 3. That then we come to dispute these Reasons distinctly : where I will prove my charges against them , and he shall prove his charges against us one by one . III. And that in all our disputes , we shall consent , 1. Not to interrupt each other in speech ; but if the length seem to overmatch the hearers memory , we will take brief Notes to help our memories , as we go , and crave the recitation of what shall be forgotten : For the strength of Truth lyeth so much in the connexion of its parts , that when it is mangled into scraps by uncivil interruptions , it is deformed and debilitated and cannot be well understood . 2. That we bind our selves by solemn promise , to speak nothing which we unfeignedly judge not to be truth , nor any thing designedly to hide or resist the truth which we discern . These terms are so just and necessary , that I will avoid him as a fraudulent wrangler who will deny them . For I come not to scold , nor to try who hath the strongest Lungs , the nimblest Tongue , or the lowdest voice , or the greatest confidence , or fiercest passion ; but to try who hath the truth , and which is the true way to Heaven . For the servant of the Lord must not strive ; especially about words and barren notions ; for that doth but tend to increase ungodliness . D. Your Method is so reasonable , and so suited to my own necessity , that I must profess no other can so much tend to my satisfaction : And therefore I hope it will not be refused . ( Here after long opposition , the P. at last agreeth to these terms ) . CHAP. III. What is the Religion of the Protestants . R. I. THe word [ Religion ] is sometimes taken Objectively ; And so I mean by it ▪ [ The objects of Religious Belief , Love and Practice , ] which are , 1. The Things themselves ; which are the principal objects ( called by Logicians , The Incomplex terms . ) 2. The organical object ; or the Revelation of these Things ; containing 1. The Words or other . Signs : 2. The sense or notions signified . For instance , Matth. 17.5 . [ This is my Beloved son in whom I am well pleased . ] Here 1. The Real Incomplex object is Christ Himself , the beloved Son of God , and God the Fathers well-pleasedness in him . 2. The signal part of the organical object , or Revelation , is the Words themselves , as spoken then , and written now . 3. The signified notions are the Meaning of the words , and are the chief part of the organical object , that is the Divine Revelation . The word [ Religion ] is of larger extent in its sense than [ Faith ] ; For it containeth all that Revelation which God hath made Necessary to salvation ; which is twofold , 1. That which is to inform the understanding with necessary knowledge and faith . 2. That which is necessary to a Holy Will and a Holy Life , to the Love of God and man , and to well doing ; which are Precepts , Promises and Threatnings . II. The word [ Religion ] is oft taken also subjectively ( as they speak ) ; For the Acts and habits of Love and Obedience . Now I suppose we are agreed that it is not Religion in this last sense that we are to dispute of ( which is as divers as persons are : ) But it is that which we call Objective Religion , even the Organical part directly . And if by all this D. understandeth us not , in plainer words , our Question is , Of the True Divine Revelation , viz. Which is the True Rule of Faith , Will and Practice ; that which is held to be such by the Protestants : or that which is held to be such by the Papists ? P. I grant you , that this is the state of the Question . R. I here declare to you then , What is the Religion of the Protestants . IT IS THE LIGHT and LAW OF GOD CONCERNING HOLY KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF , HOLY WILL and PRACTICE , CONTAINED IN NATURE and THE TRUE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES . Here note 1. That our Religion hath its Essential parts ; And its Integral parts and Accidentals . I. The Essentials of our Religion , are contained in the Baptismal Covenant ; which is expounded in the CREED , the LORDS PRAYER , and the DECALOGUE ( as delivered and expounded by Christ , and the Law of Nature . ) II. Our Entire Religion , in the Essentials , Integrals and needful Accidentals is contained wholly in the Law of Nature and the Canonical Scriptures . The Essentials are delivered down to us two wayes : 1. In Scripture with the rest ; 2. By the sure tradition of the Vniversality of Christians , in actual Baptizings , and the daily profession of Christianity . This is all the Protestants Religion . If you fasten any other on us , we deny it ; we own no other . And none know What is my Religion , that is , What I take for the Rule of my holy Faith , Love and Life , so well as my self . P. This is meer craft : you will make that only which is past controversie among us , to be Your Religion , that so your Religion may be past controversie too . R. It is such Craft as containeth that naked truth , which we trust all our own salvation on . I say that I have no other Religion ; And if you know better than I , disprove me . P. I disprove you three wayes . I. Because the Name Protestant signifieth no such Religion , but somewhat else lately taken up . II. Because the Angustane Confession , the thirty nine Articles and such like , are by your selves called The Articles of your Religion . III. Because all your Writings declare , that besides these , you hold all those controverted points , which are contrary to that which you call Popery . R. I pray you mark D. that he would perswade you that he knoweth my Religion better than I do my self ? What if I should pretend the like as to his Religion ? Were I to be believed ? P. No : but if you have an odd Religion of your own , that proveth it not to be the Protestant Religion . R. Remember D. that I come not hither to perswade you to any other Religion , than this which I have mentioned . Let him talk as long as he will what is other mens opinions , I perswade you to nothing but this , to take Gods Law of Nature and the Scripture for your Religion . Either this is Right or Wrong . If Right , fix here and I have done . If Wrong , let that be disputed . But yet I open to you all his three deceits . I. The name Protestant doth not signifie our Religion , but our Protesting against the Papists corruptions and additions . I have no Religion but Christianity : I am a Christian , and that signifieth all my Religion . I am a Catholick Christian , that is , of the Common Christian Faith and Church , and not of any heretical dividing Sect : And I am a Reformed Protestant Christian , because I renounce Popery . Therefore I rather say [ The Protestants ] than the [ Protestant ] Religion . As if I were among Lepers ; If I say , I am no Leper , that signifieth not my Essence : But if I say , [ I am a Man , and I am not a Leper , ] I speak my Nature , and my freedom from that disease . So if I say I am a Christian Protestant , I mean only that I am a Christian , and no Papist , or renouncing Popery ; as by the word [ Catholick ] I renounce all Sects and Schisms . I tell you , This is my meaning , when I say , I am a Protestant : and can you tell my meaning better than my self ? II. And as to what he saith of the thirty nine Articles and other Church Confessions , I answer , None of these are our Religion , in the sense now in question ; that is , They are not taken by us to be [ the Divine Revealed-Rule of our Faith , Love and Life ] which is our Religion now disputed of . And that this is so , I prove to you past all question . For 1. Else should we have as many Religions as we have Church Confessions , and should alter our Religion as oft as we alter our Confessions ; and our Religion should be as New as those Confessions : All which the Protestants abhor . 2. All those very Confessions themselves do assert that Gods Word is our only Religion , and all mens Writings and Decrees are lyable to mistakes : To pass by all the rest , these are the words of our sixth Article , [ Holy Scripture containeth all things Necessary to salvation : so that whatsoever is not read therein , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any man , that it should be believed as an Article of faith , or be thought Requisite or necessary to salvation ] . What would you have more plain and full ? And in the Book of Ordination , it is askt [ Are you perswaded that the Holy Scriptures contain sufficiently all doctrine required of necessity for eternal salvation ? through faith in Jesus Christ ? And are you determined out of the said Scriptures to instruct the people committed to your charge ? and to teach Nothing ( as required of necessity to eternal salvation ) but that which you shall be perswaded may be concluded and proved by the Scripture ? ] Is not this plain ? P. Why then do you call the thirty nine Articles the Articles of your Religion ? And what is their use ? And why are all required to subscribe them ? R. 1. Their Use is to signifie how the Conjunct Pastors who use them do understand the Holy Scriptures in those points : And that partly for the satisfaction of all forreign Churches , who may hear us accused of Heresie or Error ; and partly to be a hedge to the Doctrine of young Preachers , to keep them from vending mistakes in the Churches , and also to try the soundness of their understandings . 2. The Confessions , and Articles , and Catechisms are our Religion , as the Writings of Perron , Bellarmine , Suarez , &c. or many of these agreeing , are the Roman Religion : They are not the Divine Revelation and Rule of faith and practice to us : But they are the expression of our own conceptions of the sense of several chief matters in that Rule or Revelation . So that they are the Expression of our faith or Religion taken subjectively ( for acts and habits ) and not our objective Rule it self . Our Sermons and Prayers are our Religion in this sense : that is , The Expression of our own Religious Conceptions : And so are your Sermons and your Writings also to you . But if this were our Rule of Faith and Life , and so our Divine Objective Religion , then we should be of as many Religions , as we are several persons : For every one hath his several Expressions : And every new Sermon , or Book , or Prayer , would be a new part of Religion . And so with you also . So that this doubt is past all doubt : Our Confessions are but the expressions of our personal belief , and not our Rule of Faith. III. And as to your third pretence ( that we have other Articles as opposite to Popery ) I answer , Our Religion as a Rule of Faith and Worship is one thing ▪ And our Rejecting all Corruptions and Additions is another . E. g. My Religion is , that our God is only the true God. If now I say also , that Hercules is not God , and Bacchus is not God , and Venus , Mars , Mercury , Pallas , Neptune , Pluto , Ceres , &c. are not Gods ; is this a new Religion , or an addition to the former ? If the Baptismal Covenant be the Essentials of my Religion , and the Creed , Lords Prayer and Decalogue the Explication of it ; and if the Scripture be my Entire Religion , and if the Papists will come and add a multitude of new Articles and Corruptions , my rejecting of those additions , is no more an alteration of my Religion , than the sweeping of my house , or the washing of my hands is an alteration of them . So that notwithstanding all that you have said , my Religion is nothing but the Law of Nature and Scripture , and my rejecting of Popery , is no otherwise my Religion , than my freedom from the Leprosie , &c. is my humanity . P. Observe , I pray you , that It is no part of your Religion to be against Popery . R. Observe I pray you , that Popery is against my Religion , that is , against much of the Christian Religion ; and therefore my Religion is against Popery . But I will not quarrell with you about words : When God hath Revealed to us his Will , and the Papists add their corrupting inventions , Gods Revealed Will is my Religion : your Corrupting additions are contrary to it : Call my rejecting such Corruptions and additions , by the name of my Religion Reductively ( as Nihil is objectum Intellectus , & Malum Voluntatis ; and as non-agere is part of obedience ) ; or Call it no part of my Religion in the primary notion , but a Rejecting of its contraries ; so we understand each other I care not . The truth is , the Rejecting of some of your errors , directly contradicting the Scripture it self , may be called part of our Religion , as the Negation of the Contrary is included in the sense of an Affirmative : But your remoter additions , are contrary to our Religion , but not so directly . For instance : when the Scripture saith , There is bread after Consecration , and you say There is no bread : My Religion containeth the Assertion , that There is bread : And so includeth a contradiction to your Negative , that saith [ There is none ] . Now to say , that it is none of my Religion to deny your Negative , who say There is no bread , would import that It is none of my Religion which affirmeth that there is bread . Contradictions cannot both be true : Properly that word that saith There is bread is my Religion : But this word contradicteth you that say There is none . But in another instance ; my Religion saith , that The Righteous shall go into life everlasting , and the rest to everlasting punishment ; and tells us of a Heaven and Hell only hereafter : And you tell us of Limbus Patrum & Infantum , and of Purgatory : The Scripture enableth us by consequence to confute this : but if it did not , it were enough for me to say , It is none of my Religion , because not Revealed by God in Nature or Scripture ; And as it is your Addition , so to deny it , is not directly and properly my Religion it self , but the Defence and Vse of my Religion . God tells us in Scripture , that He created Heaven and Earth . If one should assert as from God , that God created ten thousand Heavens and ten thousand Earths , this is a faith of his own invention or addition , and it is enough for me to say , I have no such faith ; because God revealeth no such thing . So tha● still the Scripture is the Protestants Religion as your Polydor Virgil truly describeth them , and others confess . P. All this is meer delusion : For It is not the words , but the sense that is your Religion ; as you will confess . And if your Articles or Confessions contain a false sense , or your Books or Sermons shew that you falsly expound the Scripture , your Religion is then false . R. Such Confusion may cheat a heedless hearer : But any one that will take heed , may quickly perceive , that you here fraudulently play with the ambiguity of the word [ Religion ] and quite turn to another question . For you now speak of subjective Religion , that is , of the Acts and habits of the person : whereas we are disputing only of objective Religion , which is Gods Revelation and our Rule . If I understand any Texts of Scripture amiss , my faith is so far defective in my selfs ▪ But Gods Word , which is my Rule , is never the more imperfect . I pray you consider how justly you have spoken . 1. Is a mans Act of faith , Gods Word or Revelation ? 2. What need you dispute of the Protestants Religion , if we have as many Religions as persons ? For it is as certain that we have as many degrees of our understanding many Texts of Scripture ? 3. Would not this prove also as many Religions as persons among your selves ? Is it not most certain that no two Papists in the world , have just the same sense or conceptions of the Scriptures and Councils in each particular . The Law of God is my only Religion , objectively , as how disputed of : If I mistake any essential part of it , so as to deny it , I am personally a Heretick : If I mistake any Integral part , I so far err from the Rule of my Religion or faith . But I still profess , that I take Gods Word or Law only for my sure unchangeable Rule or objective Religion , and I am daily learning to understand it better , and as soon as I see my error I will reform it , and blame my self and not my Rule . And I think you will say the same of your Rule and of your personal errors . P. This shall not serve your turn : For every Law must have its promulgation : And if it be not manifested to you that Scripture is Gods Law , and sufficient , it cannot be your Rule : I ask you therefore , Qu. 1. Is it the Scripture in the Original , or in the Translations , which you say is your Religion , Law or Rule ? R. I told you our Divine Rule consisteth of Words and Meaning . It is only the Originals which are our Rule or Religion as to the very words ; that is , Only the Original words , were of that Divine Inspiration . But every Translation is so far Gods Word , in sense , as it expresseth truly the sense of the original words . P. Qu. 2. I pray you what then is the Religion of all the unlearned Protestants , who know not a word of the Originals ? They may see now that you have stript them of all Divine Religion . R. Their Religion is the same objectively with that of the most learned , as delivered from God ; but it is not equally learned and understood by them ; Gods Word in the Original Tongues is given them as the Rule of Faith and Worship ; and Teachers are appointed to help them to understand it . When these Teachers have Translated it to them , they have the same sense , though not the same words , for their Religion . And to know the Words is not so necessary to salvation , as to know the sense ( or sentence ) though by other words : For the words are but means to know the Sense ; and the sense but a means to know the Things , ( viz. God , Christ , Grace , Glory , &c. ) And as they have the same God , Christ , Spirit , Grace , Glory , &c. to be the real objects of their Religion , so have they the same Do-Doctrine and Law in sense which is in the Originals . P. Q. 3. And I pray you , How shall the unlearned be sure that the Translations are true as to the sence ? when you have no Divine Infallible Translators ? R. I also ask you . 1. How was all the Greek Church for many hundred years sure of the soundness of the Translation called the Septuagint ? or that of Aquila , Theodot . Symmachus , &c. when it is certain that in many things they were all unsound ? 2. How was the Latine Church sure of the soundness of their Translation before Hierome amended it ? And how have you been sure since then , when Pope Sixtus , and Pope Clement have made so many hundred alterations or differences ? Had you then Infallible Translators ? And why then do your Translators ( as Montanus and others ) still differ from that Vulgar Latine ? 3. And how do all your unlearned persons know that you give them not only the true sence of the Scriptures , but of all your Councils or Traditions ? But I will answer you directly . We still distinguish the Essentials of our Religion , from the Integrals and Accidentals . 1. The unlearned may be certain that the Essentials are truly delivered them in sence : Because they have them not only in the Scripture , but by Vniversal certain Tradition , in the constant Vse of Christian Baptism , and in the use of the Creed , Lords Prayer and Decalogue in all the Church-assemblies : And they may easily know that mens tempers , Countreys , Interests , opinions in other points , and sidings are so various , that it is not a thing possible without a miracle , that all these should conspire both in a false Translation , and Vniversal assertion and Tradition of all these Essentials . For the effects must be contrary to a torrent of Causes : The Papists , Protestants , Arians , Greeks , Socinians , Lutherans , Calvinists , Anabaptists , Separatists , &c. have so much animosity against each other , that undoubtedly if any party of them did falsifie Scripture even in the Essentials which are easily discerned , multitudes would quickly detect it and contradict them . And this the unlearned may surely and easily discern . But as for all other less necessary texts of Scripture , neither you nor we , learned or unlearned , are certain that they are perfectly translated , nor are they by any one perfectly understood , nor are they sure ( by reason of the various readings ) which copie of the original is absolutely faultless . 2. But suppose that an unlearned weak Believer were not absolutely certain ( as he may be ) that the very essentials of Christianity are truly opened to him , he may yet grow up to better understanding , and he may be saved with some doubtings of Christianity it self , so be it his Faith be more prevalent than those doubtings , upon his Heart and Life . P. Is it a safe Religion which you your self describe ? When no man can be sure that he rightly understandeth all the Scriptures ? and when your believer is uncertain , even of Christianity it self ? Let D. Judge whether this be a sure Religion . R. The word of God is absolutely certain in it self ; but that so much uncertainty may be in believers , I will make you to your shame confess your self , and recant these insinuations . Q. 1. Dare you say that all your Church , or any one man , even the Pope himself , doth understand all the Scripture ? or can perfectly and infallibly translate each word ? You dare not say it . Else why did he never once pretend to give us either an unerring Commentary or Translation ? And why have you such great diversity of both ? Q. 2. How much less dare you say that any of you perfectly understand all the Councils , which are the rest of your Religion ? No nor that you have certainty which are the true Copies of them all ? else why do Caranza , Crab ; Surius , Binnius , Nicolinus , &c. give give us such various Copies ? And yet you confess the Scriptures to be Gods word , and with the Councils to contain your Religion . Q. 3. If God have promised salvation , to all that truly hold and practise the Essentials ( the Baptismal Covenant ) doth the difficulty of other points ( in Genealogie , Chronologie , History , by matters ) either make our salvation ever the less certain , or any way impeach the word of God ? What disgrace is it to a man that besides Head and Heart , he hath fingers , and toes , and nails and hair ? No more is it to the Scripture , that as our entire Religion , it containeth even Integrals and Accidentals . Q. 4. And as to a Doubting Believer , I ask , Dare you say that all those were Infidels or in a state of damnation , who said , See the Roman Catech. where this is confest , Cap. 1. q. 1. pag. 9. Lord increase our faith ? or Lord we believe ; help our unbelief ? or to whom Christ said , Why are ye afraid O ye of little faith ? or that said , Luk. 24. We trusted that this had been he that should have delivered Israel ? Or if a man should doubt even of the Life to come , and yet his Faith be so much more powerful than his doubts , as that he resolveth to prefer his hopes of Heaven before all this world , and to seek it on the most self-denying terms , even to the laying down of life it self , are you sure that this man shall be damned ? But this is the Course of pievish wranglers . To maintain their own opinions and put a face of certainty on their own conclusions , they stick not to damn almost all the world . For it will be no less , if all doubting believers must be damned . 5. It is a gross delusion to pretend that there is a necessity , that All Gods Infallible word , must needs be taught us by as Infallible Inspired Prophets or other persons , as those that first delivered it . Translation is but the first part of exposition . And must we have none but Infallible or Prophetical Expositors ? 6. Is it All the Scriptures , or but some part , that your Pope or Councils can Infallibly both translate and expound ? If but some , we need not their Infallibility or Inspiration , for the most plain and necessary parts : It is and can be done without them . If it be All , how impious and cruel are they that would never do it to this day ? 7. And why use all your Expositors the common helps of Grammars , Lexicons , Teachers , long studies , and yet differ de side ( even of the sense of many a text of Scripture ) when all is done , if your Pope have the gift of Infallible Translating and expounding all ? P. Remember that your selves derive your Essentials from Tradition . R. Yes , and our Integrals to : What objective presence to the senses , ( eyes and ears ) of those that heard Christ and his Apostles , and saw their miracles was to the first Converts in those times , that partly Tradition is to us , or the necessary medium . The words could not come down to us , without some to deliver them . We have the Bible by Tradition , and we have practical Tradition of Baptism and the Creed by it self , and that in many languages ; where we are sure we have all the necessary sence . But do you remember that this is Vniversal Tradition , and not meer Roman Tradition ; such as is certain by moral Evidence , even the consent of all that are yet of cross opinions and Interests , ( as to matter of fact ) ; Historical Evidence ; and not the pretended certainty of a Pope and his favourites , phanatically claiming a spirit of Infallibility . But I am not now disputing with you , I am only telling you that the Protestant Religion is nothing but Christianity and the Scriptures . And all our Confessions are our Religion ( besides Consent ) but as our Sermons and Treatises are , which vary as they are various expressions of mens various subjective faith ; while Gods word varyeth not . P. If the Bible be your Religion , then the Ceremonial Law of Moses is your Religion : For that is part of the Bible . R. You study what to say against another , and never think how it concerneth your selves . 1. Is not the Bible at least Part of your Religion ? You dare not deny it . And is the Ceremonial Law of Moses therefore your Religion ? 2. I told you that as a perfect man hath hair and nails , which are but Accidents , so the Bible hath more than the Integrals of our Religion . 3. The Ceremonies of Moses in that sense as now they are delivered to us in the Bible , are parts or appurtenances of our Religion : That is , the historical narrative of those Abrogated Laws , which now bind us not as Laws , but tell us ( as the Prophesies ) what was heretofore , and how Christ was fore-typified , and what intimations of Gods will we may gather from the history . And the abrogated Laws are no otherwise delivered to us , and so we must use them . P. If the ten Commandments be your Religion , you must keep the Jewish seventh day Sabbath : so that neither there can you fix . R. The same answer will serve . 1. The ten Commandments are no otherwise part of our Religion th●n they are of yours . 2. They are a Law to us , as delivered and expounded by Christ , and in Nature : and the seventh day is an abrogated part of Moses Law. P. If the Creed be your Religion , you must take the Article of Christs descent into Hell to be necessary to salvation . R. 1. Is the Creed no part of your Religion ? As you answer , so may we . 2. I did not tell you that the Creed had no more than the Essentials . I told you that all the Essence of Christianity is in the Baptismal Covenant : And he that understandeth that , understandeth it all . And that the Creed , the Lords Prayer , and the Christian Decalogue are the exposition of it . But the Exposition may have somewhat more than the Essentials . 3. The Creed was not written first in English , nor Latine ; And Christs descent to Hades is more needful to be believed , than his descent to Hell , as the word is commonly taken in English . But , to conclude , remember , 1. That I profess here to own and plead for no other Religion ( as we explained the word ) but Gods Law of Nature and Scripture . 2. That I profess to perswade D. to no other : And you cannot make me a Religion against my will. CHAP. IV. What is the Papists Religion . R. I Have plainly told you what my own , and the Protestants Religion is , viz. [ Nothing but Christianity ; contained Integrally in the holy Scriptures ; And the Essentials being the Baptismal Covenant , explained in the Creed , Lords prayer and Christian Decalogue , are delivered to us both in the said Scriptures , and by distinct Tradition ; which also hath brought down to us the Scripture it self : Not a Tradition depending on the pretended Authority of the Roman Pope or party , or on any other that shall pretend the like ; But that Historical Evidence of matter of fact , which is surelier given us by all sorts of Christians , taking in the Concord of many Hereticks , Infidels and Enemies ; which evidence dependeth not on the credit of supernatural Revelation , but on the natural credibility yea and certainty of such universal Circumstantiated Concordant testimony ; and is necessarily antecedent to the Belief of supernatural Revelations in the particulars , as sight and hearing were in the auditors of Christ and the Apostles ; seeing these two Acts of Knowledge , [ Whatever God saith is True ; and This God saith ] must necessarily go before our Belief or Trust that [ This is True , because God saith it . ] And so we run not in a circle , and need not a supernatural faith , for the founding of our first supernatural faith ; that is , A first before the first . ] Without fraud or obscurity this is our faith and Religion . Now do you as honestly and plainly tell me What is Yours , which D. must be perswaded to : For I confess that I take it to be an unintelligible thing , and despair that ever you give any man a certain notice , what it is , which may be truly called the Religion of your Roman-Catholick-Church . P. I shall make you understand it if you are willing : But 1. Note that [ Religion ] being a larger word than [ faith ] includeth also [ Practice ] or [ Manners ] , we must give you a distinct account of each : For they have not the same Causes : Our Faith is Divine ; But our Manners or Practice must follow the Laws of the Church , as well as the Immediate Laws of God : These must not be confounded . R. Man hath three faculties , Intellective , Volitive and Vitally - Executive , or Active : Our Religion subjectively must be in all , viz. The Sanctity of all , by Holy Life , Light and Love : And therefore the Rule which is our objective Religion doth extend to all , ( to Intellect , Will and Practice ) . And surely for All , there is a Rule directly Divine , given by Inspiration of the Holy Ghost or Christs own words , and subordinate Rules by Christs Ministers , which are directly Humane , and no otherwise Divine than as God hath in General authorized them thereto . Even as the Soveraign hath the only Vniversal Legislative power , and Magistrates by Him are authorized to subordinate mandates and acts of Government . And so we have a Divine Faith and Revelation , and a subordinate Humane faith and Ministerial Revelation or Preaching : We have Divine Perswasions , and subordinate Perswasions of men : We have Divine Laws , yea and executions ; and we have Humane subordinate Laws and executions . If you resolve to call the Humane , Divine so far as they are indeed Authorized by God , I will not quarrel about words : But remember , 1. That so you must do also on the same reasons , by the Laws of Kings and the Commands of Parents , who are as much authorized by God to their proper Government . 2. And I hope you mean not to Confound these Humane Laws , with Gods own Vniversal Laws , nor humane faith with Divine faith . And be it known to you , It is the Divine Revelations and Laws as distinct from the Humane , which we are now calling our Religion , and disputing of ; though this Religion teach us to obey Parents , Pastors and Princes , and that obedience may be consequentially and reductively called Religious if you please . But if really your Religion be not Divine , but Humane , let us know it . For by the word [ Religion ] we essentially mean that which is [ Divine . ] P. Men were the speakers and writers of the Scriptures , and so far they are humane , as well as the Decrees of the present Church . R. The Decalogue was witten by God , and delivered by the Ministry of Angels : Christ was owned by a Voice from Heaven . And himself spake and did most recited by the four Evangelists : And the Prophets and Apostles spake by the immediate Infallible Inspiration of the Holy Ghost : So that the Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures . But the present Pastors of the Church instead of that Immediate Revelation from God by the Spirits Inspiration , have but the ordinary help of the Spirit , to understand those same Revelations , and that proportioned to the measure of their diligence , natural parts and helps of Art , as the knowledge of Theologie is attained by other Students ; who are none of them perfect or free from error . P. I will tell you what our Religion is , It is Gods Word concerning things to be Believed and Done delivered partly in the Canonical Scriptures , and partly by Oral Tradition , and received by the Church , and by it delivered to us . The Trent . Catech. Prefac . q. 12. saith , Omnis doctrinae ratio , quae fidelibus tradenda sit , verbo Dei continetur , quod in Scripturam , Traditionesque distributum est . The Reason of every doctrine which is to be delivered to the faithful , is contained in the Word of God , which is distributed into the Scripture and Traditions . Vide Concil . Senonens . in Bin. Decr. 5. p. 671. & Concil . Tridentini Sess . 4. p. 802. — Perspiciensque hanc Veritatem & disciplinam contineri in libris sacris , & sine scripto Traditionibus , quae ex ipsius Christi ore ab Apostolis acceptae , & ab ipsi , Apostolis Spiritu sancto dictante quasi per manus traditae , ad nos usque pervenerunt , orthodoxorum patrum sententiam sequuta , omnes libros tam Veteris quam Novi Testamenti , nec non Traditiones ipsas , tum ad fidem , tum ad mores pertinentes , tanquam vel ore tenus a Christo , vel a Spiritu sancto dicta●as , & continua successione in Ecclesia Catholica conservatas , pari pietatis affectu & reverentia suscipit ac veneratur . Bellarmin . de Verbo Dei , lib. 4. c. 2 , 3. sheweth the divers sorts of unwritten Traditions which are part of Gods Word : some de side , as the perpetual Virginity of Mary , that there are but four Gospels , &c. and some of Manners ; as Crossing , Fast-dayes , &c. Easter , Whitsontide , and other Festivals . Veron de Reg. fid . cap. 2. saith , [ The total and only Rule of the Catholick faith , to which all are obliged under pain of Heresie and Excommunication , is Divine Revelation delivered to the Prophets and Apostles , proposed by the Catholick Church in her General Councils , or by her Universal practice , to be believed as an Article of Catholick faith . ] [ All that is of this nature is an Article or doctrine of faith . And no other doctrine can be of faith , if either the first Condition fail , viz. Divine Revelation , or the second , which is a Proposal by the Universal Church . ] p. 5. No doctrine grounded on Scripture diversly interpreted , either by the antient Fathers or our Modern Doctors , is an Article of faith . For such a doctrine , though it may be revealed , yet the revelation is not ascertained to us , nor proposed by the Church : — Nor any Proposition which can be proved only by consequence drawn from Scripture , though the consequences were certain and evident , and deduced from two propositions of Scripture — Yet these doctrines are Certain , when the premises are so . — Gratians decrees — the Papal decrees contained in the body of the Canon Law , none of them do constitute an Article of saith — Nor that which is defined in Provincial Councils , though the Pope preside in person — for the second condition is alwayes wanting in this case , and very often the first — p. 11. I did not say that such definitions were not of faith — but they are not of Catholick faith , or which all as Catholicks are bound to hold as of faith , and the contrary to which is heretical , and removeth from the bosome of the Church . — p. 12 , 13. The Practice even of the Vniversal Church is no sufficient ground for an Article of Catholick faith , by reason the object of faith is Truth : and oft times the Church proceeds in matter of practice , upon probable Opinions , and this probability is sufficient to justifie the practice , which the Church on just cause may change : As e. g. as Vasquez teacheth , the Church did antiently pray in the Mass for Infidels alive , and Catechumens dead , and the Sacrifice of the Mass was offered for them , and yet he — rather inclineth to the contrary , that the Sacrifice of the Mass ought not to be offered , but for the faithful living and dead , by which Opinion the Church seemeth guided at present . But Vasquez answers , that the Church following a probable opinion did practise that which she did not declare to be of faith . — p. 15. So General Councils when they mention any thing in this manner ( by way of simple assertion ) and do not properly define : For as Bellarmine affirms , it is necessary that General Councils properly define the thing in question , as a Decree which ought to be held as of Catholick faith . Hence Bellarmine adds , they are not properly Hereticks , who hold the Pope not to be above all Councils , though he say the last Laterane Council under Leo the tenth Ses . 11. expresly and professedly teacheth that the Pope is above all Councils , and rejects the contrary Decree of the Council of Basil : because it is doubtful whether the Laterane Council defined that doctrine properly as a Decree to be believed with Catholick faith . The same Bellarm. ( de Concil . l. 2. c. 19. ) also requireth that the definition be made Conciliarly : Pope Martin the fifth said , he only confirmed those Decrees of faith which were made in the Council of Constance , Conciliariter : that is , after the manner of other Councils , the question being first diligently examined : But its clear ( saith he ) that this Decree , that a General Council hath immediate authority from Christ , which all , even the Pope , are bound to obey , was made without any examining — p. 17. The object defined must be truly and properly an object of faith ; and a Decree ought to be on a thing universally proposed to the whole Church — Vasquez holds : It is not at all erroneous to affirm that a General Council may err in Precepts , and in particular Judgements — and ( p. 19. ) in framing Laws not necessary to salvation ; or making superfluous Laws — Without all doubt a General Council may err in a question of fact : ( which depends on testimony and information of men : ) So the sixth General Council condemned Honorius of Heresie by false Information , and misunderstanding his Epistles . — p. 20. The Pope ( saith Suarez ) to a particular action belonging to humane Prudence , hath no infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost — As that such or such an excommunication is valid , or that such or such a Kingdom is disposable by the Pope for such and such causes . ] So far Veron , who is most favourable to you , in narrowing our faith . R. Thus far you have resolved me : but I must crave somewhat more . Qu. I. Are there no Essential Constitutive parts of your Religion , more necessary than the Integrals and Accidentals ? Have you no description for it , but that It is Divine Revelation proposed by the Church ? The Doctrine of Sacrificing was a Divine Revelation to Adam , and the difference of clean and unclean Beasts to Noah , and the Jewish Law was Gods Revelation to Moses and them : And yet I suppose Christianity is somewhat different from all these . Is not Christianity your Religion ? Hath Christianity no Constitutive special Essence , but only the Genus of Divine Revelation which is common to that with all other Divine Revelations ? And what if you add [ to a Prophet or Apostle ] ? Was Agabus Prophesie of Paul , or Pauls of the event of the shipwrack , &c. essential to Christianity ? Hath Christianity no Essence ? Or is all Divine Revelation essential to it ? P. You take advantage of the disagreement of our Doctors . You know that some few acknowledg distinct fundamentals ; and some deny the distinction in your sense : And most of us say , that no man can enumerate the things necessary to all , but that it dependeth upon mens various capacities , educations , and means of knowing . And in sum , that no more is necessary to all to be explicitly believed , but that Gods Revelations are true ; and that All are Gods Revelations which the Church proposeth as such . You may take our judgement much from him that cometh nearest to you , whom I have heard you much praise , as most moderate and judicious , viz. Dr. H. Holden Anal. fid . l. 1. c , 5. Lect. 2. p. 53. [ Divines disputing of the necessity of points to be believed , do commonly tend this way , to denote the Articles of things revealed , the explicite and express belief whereof , is ( as they opine ) altogether necessary to all Christians . The resolution of which question is among them so doubtful and uncertain , as that they are in this ( as ☞ they are in all things else ) distracted and divided into various Opinions : which they that care for them , may seek : To me they are as Nothing , while the Authors of them profess , that they have nothing of Certainty . Yea , to one that meditateth the matter it self , laying by all preoccupation , it is most clearly manifest , that the Resolution of this question is not only unprofitable , that I say not pernicious , ( as it is handled by Divines ) ; but also vain and impossible . It is unprofitable , because no good accrueth by it to souls . ☞ It is pernicious , while Divines for the most part assert , that only One or Two Articles , yea , ( as some say ) no singular Article at all , is necessary to be believed of all by an explicite faith . For hence ( however the truth of the matter be ) the colder Christians taking occasion , do little care to obtain that degree of Knowledge in the Mysteries of faith , which they might commodiously and easily attain . It is Impossible , seeing it is Manifest , that no particular Rule or Points to be believed , or Number of Articles can in this Matter be given or assigned , which shall be wholly common and necessary to all Christians : For this dependeth on every individual mans natural capacity , means of instruction , and all the other circumstances of each mans life and disposition , which are to each man so special , that we can determine of nothing at all that is common to all . But I handle the Necessity of points to be Believed in a far other sense : For the Articles of the Christian faith , which I now call necessary , I do not at all understand to be such as all and every one must distinctly know , or hold by explicite assent ; But I mean only such , the belief of which is accounted universally by the whole Catholick Church , so substantial and essential , as that he that will deservedly be esteemed , and truly be a member of it , must needs adhere to them all at least Implicitely and Indirectly : that is , by believing whatsoever the holy and Universal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a Revealed Doctrine and Article of divine faith . And therefore he is for that cause to be removed from its Communion and Society , who shall pertinaciously and obstinately deny the least of them , much more if he maintain the contrary , while he knoweth and seeth that it is the Universal sentence of that Church , that we must adhere to that as an Article of faith . And in this sense I will henceforth use the word Necessity . R. This might have been said in fewer and plainer words , viz. That your Divines herein do commonly err , and that perniciously , and yet that indeed he is of the same mind ; viz. that It is impossible to name the Articles necessary to be believed explicitely of all , because each mans divers capacity , means and circumstances diversifie them to each : But that only this one thing is explicitely to be believed , [ That whatsoever the Holy and Universal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a Revealed Doctrine and Article of faith , is true . ] And therefore that no man must pertinaciously deny any thing which he knoweth the Church so holdeth . So that nothing is necessarily to be believed actually and indeed , but Gods and the Churches Veracity . P. Another of ours that cometh as near you as most , openeth this more fully , Davenport alias Fr. a Sancta Clara , De. Nat. Grat. p. 111 , &c. [ As to the Ignorance of those things that are of necessity of Means , or End , there is difference among the Doctors : For Soto 4. d. 5. q. 5. & l. de Nat. & Grat. c. 12. & Vega l. 6. c. 20. sup . Trid. hold that now in the Law of Grace there is no more explicite faith required , than in the Law of Nature . Yea , Vega ib. & Gabriel 2. d. 21. q. 2. ar . 3. & 3. d. 21. q. 2. think that in the Law of Nature , and in Cases in the Law of Grace , some may be saved with only natural knowledge , and that the habit of faith , is not required . Whom Horantius terms men of great name , and will not accuse of heresie . I would this great mans modesty were more frequent with modern Doctors . Yea , Alvarez de aux . disp . 56. with others , seemeth to hold , that to justification there is not at all required the knowledge of a supernatural object ( or the supernatural knowledge of the object . ) Others hold , That both to Grace and Glory is required an explicite belief of Christ . Bonav . 3. d. 25 , &c. Others , that at least to salvation is an explicite belief of the Gospel or of Christ , though not to Grace or Justification . And this is common in the Schools , as Ferera shews that followeth it : And for this Opinion Scotus is cited — But I think he holdeth , that explicite belief of Christ or the Gospel , is not of necessity of means as to Grace or Glory , as 4. d. 3. q. 4. What is plainer than that now — men may be saved without the explicite belief of Christ — And I plainly think its Scotus's and the common opinion , which Vega followeth , and Faber 4. d. 3. and Petigianis very well , and of the Thomists Bannes 2.2 . q. 2. a. 8. Canus and others : Yea , the Trent Council seemeth to favour it , Sess . 6. c. 4. — p. 114. So Corduba , Medina , Bradwardine . — ☞ And such ( as have no explicite faith in Christ ) are not formally without the Church . This way go Victoria in 4. Relect. 4. tit . Richard de Villa med . 3.25 . a. 3. q. 1 , &c. Well saith Petigianis 2. d. 35. q. 1. a. 9. that if there were a simple old woman to whom some false Opinion were preached by a false Prophet ( e. g. that the substance of Bread remaineth with the body of Christ in the Sacrament ) and she believe it : Doth she sin by this ? No. — p. 119. Yea , if she so err through piety , thinking that the Church so believeth , perhaps she should merit . — p. 120. For my part I think that the Vulgar committing themselves to the instruction of the Pastors , trusting of their knowledge and goodness , if they be deceived , it will be taken for invincible ignorance , or at least probable , ( as Herera ) which excuseth from faultiness . — Yea , some Doctors give so much to the Instruction of Pastors , that have the care of the Sheep , that if they should teach , that ☞ hic & nunc God would be hated , the rude Parishioner were bound to believe him : which yet I think false — p. 123. It seemeth at this day to be the common judgement of the Schools and Divines , that the Laity erring with their Doctors or Pastors are altogether excused from all fault ; ☞ Yea , oft times so materially erring do merit for the act of Christian obedience which they owe their Pastors : as you may see in Valent. To. 3. disp . 1. q. 2. p. 5. and others . So Angles 2. d. 22. q. 2. dub . 7. Vasqu . p. 2. disp . 121. In case they never doubted of the Veracity of their Prelates — Much more saith Sancta Clara there , to prove that the ignorant Protestants here may be saved ; citing further to his end , Zanchez in Decal . l. 2. c. 1. n. 8. Alph. a Castro , Simanca , Argon , Tanner , Faber , Eman●sa , Rozell . And out of Argon tells us when Faith is sufficiently proposed , viz. [ When faith is so confirmed by Reasons , holiness of life , the confutation of the contrary errors , and by some signs , as that Reason it self beginneth prudently to prescribe , that the matters of faith heard are to be believed , and the contrary Sect is false . ] p. 125. And probl . 16. p. 127. Whether men may be blamelesly ignorant of the Law of Nature and the Decalogue ? The common opinion is that they may ; not of the first principles , but 1. Of the easie conclusions for some time , and of the remoter conclusions for a longer time : Such are the Commandments of the Decalogue as to the substance of the act ; as in some lying , theft , fornication , manslaughter ( in Will at least ) &c. R. Qu. II. But do you think that men may not as invincibly and inculpably be unacquainted with the Authority of the Pope and Roman Councils or Church , as you say they may be ignorant of Christ , and the Law of Nature ? I instance in the millions of the Abassme Christians , who for above a thousand years never heard from the Pope or his emissaries . P. That cannot be denyed : For they have not the necessary means . R. How then do you make your Churches proposal to be the necessary point to be Explicitely believed of all ? P. We do not mean it of all that Will be saved : For you hear that some may be saved without any explicite belief of Christ . But we mean it of all that will be in the Church , and be saved there . R. But do you not hold and say , that out of the Church there is no salvation ? P. Some say so : and some say that It is rare out of the Church . R. But are the Ethiopian Christians out of the Church ? P. They are out of the true Church , being Schismaticks . R. Why said your Author before , that Infidels were not formally out of the Church who are invincibly ignorant ? P. But other Doctors are of another opinion . R. But Christ is the Saviour of his body : Are not those of the Church who are saved , or in a state of salvation ? What hold you of that ? P. Some say , They are all of the Church : and others that Christ saveth more than his Church : And some say , that They are of the Church Regenerate , but not of the Church Congregate . But few own this , because it is your distinction : as of a visible and invisible Church . R. Qu. III. But above all , I would know of you , what you mean by the Catholick Church , whose proposal is necessary to the being of faith ? P. We mean the Roman Catholick Church : that is , the Pope and his Subjects . R. Do you mean the Pope without a General Council , or a General Council without the Pope ? or only both agreeing and conjunct ? R. You take advantage of our differences : but those do but shew , that this is no point of faith . Some hold that the Pope alone may serve : and some , that the Pope in a Provincial Council : and some that a General Council without him : But you heard Veron taketh in the Council , and it is no true Council without the Pope : And therefore the surest opinion saith , that it must be both in Concord . R. But what is the Vniversal Church whose Practice is made sufficient instead of , or without a General Council ? P. It is the whole Roman Church real , distinct from the Representative . R. Is it the Clergy only , or the Laity only ; or must it be both ? P. Both , but not equally ; but in their several places . R. Must it be All the Church , without any excepted ? Or only the greater part ? P. These are points not agreed of , and therefore not of faith . Some say that it must be so many as that the dissenters be not considerable . But how many are considerable or inconsiderable is undetermined . Others say , It may be the minor part that practise , so be it the rest do not contradict it , or do contrarily . R. I will trouble you with no more such questions , ( though I have a multitude which should be here resolved ) for I perceive that we must expect nothing but a Maze of uncertainties and confusion . We are next in order to Agree upon our common principles which must be supposed in our following Dispute : For they that Agree in nothing , are uncapable of disputing of any thing ; seeing all conclusions of which we doubt , must be drawn from more evident truths , of which we are less doubtful , and resolved into a conceded Principle . PART II. The Principles which Papists and Protestants are agreed in : And therein the full ●ustification of all the Protestants Religion . THe first common Principle : That we are Men , having Reason , and Free-will , and Sense ; whose Natural way of knowing things sensible , is by the perception of our senses , having no way of greater Certainty . R. I take it for a common principle , that we are Men , having Reason , and Free-will , and Sense : whose natural way of Knowing things sensible , is by the perception of our senses ▪ And therefore that our rightly constituted or sound senses , with their due media , about their proper objects are to be trusted ; being either certain , or we have no certainty . P. I know what you intend : I grant it as you express it . R. It must then be granted us , that there is true Bread and Wine in substance remaining after the words of the Mass-Priests consecration . P. Yes : When you can prove , that the consecrated Bread and Wine are the proper objects of sense : which we deny ; they being not now Bread and Wine . R. Is it by the Perception of sense that you deny it ? or by other means ? P. No : It is by Faith and Reason which are above Sense . R. Now you come to deny the Principle which you granted : Sense is the perceiver of its own objects : No Faith , no Reason can perceive them , but by sense : And if due sensation perceive them , and Faith deny them , then Faith denyeth sense to be the proper natural perceiver of its objects , and our judgement of things sensible to be such as must follow that perception . But we must dispute of this anon , and will not now anticipate it . Only remember , that if you deny sense which is the first Principle , no mortal man is capable of disputing with you , there being no lower principle to which we can have recourse , and resolve our differences . The second Principle : That there is One only God , Infinite in Being , Power , Wisdom and Goodness ; Our Owner , Ruler and Chief Good ; Most Holy , Just and True , and therefore cannot lye ; but is absolutely to be believed , and trusted , and loved . R. I need not repeat it : Do you not Agree with us in this ? P. Yes : Heathens ( that are sober ) and Christians are agreed in it . R. You grant then , that this may be known by them that are no subjects of the Pope . Remember anon that we are not to be blamed for Believing God. The third Principle : That the whole frame of Nature within us and without us ( within our reach ) is the signal Revelation of God and his Will to man ; called ( Objectively ) The Light and Law of Nature . R. I suppose that this also may pass for a common granted Principle . P. Yes , as you express it : If we agree not of the Light and Law of Nature , we come short of Infidels , and meer Natural men . R. Observe then , that we are Justified by your principles , for Believing and Trusting Gods Natural Revelation . The very first part of which is made to our senses : By Natural Evidence God sheweth us that Bread is Bread. P. Yes : when sense is sound , and objects and media just , and God doth not contradict sense by supernatural Revelation . The fourth Principle : That Natural Revelation is before supernatural , and sense before faith , and we are Men ( in order of Nature at least ) before we are Christians , and the former is still presupposed to the later . R. This also I suppose is a granted Principle . P. It is so : But see that you raise no false consequents from it . R. I conclude from it , that He that denyeth the perception of sense to be the certain way of Judging of things sensible , denyeth all the Certainty of faith , and subverteth the very foundations of it : And that we are justified for our Assenting first to Gods Natural Revelations . It is God that made my senses and understanding , and God that made the object and media , as Bread and Wine , and therefore God deceiveth me , if I be deceived in taking it for Bread and Wine after Consecration . But God is to be believed , in his first Revelations . P. You vainly call Sensation , and Intellection or Knowledge of things sensible by the name of Believing . R. We will not vainly contend about the Name , if we agree of the Thing : But this leadeth me to another Principle . The fifth Principle : That the Knowledge of things fully sensible hath more quieting , satisfying Evidence , than our Belief of supernatural Revelations alone , as made to us by a Prophet or Apostle : And that where all the sound senses of all men living do agree about their near and proper sensible object , there is the most satisfying Evidence of all . R. I suppose that we are all agreed also in this principle . P. As you word it we are : For our Divines distinguish of Evidence and Certainty : and are so far from saying that Faith hath more Evidence than Sense and Knowledge , that it is ordinary with them to say , that this is the difference between Faith and Knowledge , and that faith hath not Evidence : but yet it hath no less certainty . R. Some men use words first to sport themselves out of their understandings , and then to use others to the same game . Evidence is nothing but the Perceptibility or Cognoscibility of a thing : by which we call it Knowable ; which is the Immediate necessary qualification of an Object of Knowledge . Certainty is either Objective , which is nothing but this same Cognoscibility or Evidence as in a satisfying degree : Or it is Subjective or Active , which is nothing but the Infallible or True , and quieting satisfactory knowledge of a Truth . Where the Certainty of Object and Act concurr : For no man can be certain of a lye or untruth : For to be Certain , is to be certain that it is True : Those therefore would befool the world , who would perswade men , that a clear and confident perception of an untruth , or confident error , is Certainty . There may be Objective Truth and Certainty of the Matter , where there is not in us an Active or Subjective Certain Knowledge of it : But there can be no Active Certainty of an Objective Vncertainty , or certain Knowledge of a lye . Now if you mean that faith hath Objective Certainty without Evidence of Certainty , or Ascertaining Evidence , that is , but to say and unsay : It hath Certainty and no Certainty : For this Certainty and Evidence is all one . But if you mean that Faith hath an Active Subjective Certainty without an Objective Certainty in the Matter , you speak an impossibility and contradiction : as if you said , [ I clearly see a thing invisible or without light . ] P. Do you think that our Divines knew not what they said , when they say that to believe without Evidence maketh faith meritorious ? R. The old asserters of this meant the same that Christ meant , when he saith to Thomas [ Blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed . ] There is a sensible Evidence , and an Intelligible Evidence . Faith hath not an Immediate sensible Evidence ; that is , we believe things unseen , and above sense : And this is their meaning : We see not God , Christ , Heaven , Angels , &c. But faith hath alwaies Intelligible Evidence of Verity ; and ( as our Mr. R. Hooker saith ) can go no further than it hath such Evidence . However , I appeal to any that have not been disputed out of their wits , whether , If God would give us as full a sight of Heaven and Hell , and Angels and Blessed souls , as we have of the Bread and Wine before us , and as full a Hearing of all that they say , in justification of Holiness , or Lamentation of sin , and as full sensible acquaintance with the world we go to , and our title to it , as we have with this world , I say , whether this would not be more ascertaining and satisfactory to us , and banish all doubts , more than our present faith doth ? I love not to hear men lie as for God , and talk and boast against their experience , as if the interest of faith required it . Things revealed to faith Are Certain and Infallible . But that is because we have certain evidence 1. That God cannot lie ; 2. And that God revealed them ; and so that they are True. But if we did see , feel , taste , &c. we should be more certain . Else why is it said , that we now know but enigmatically and as in a glass ; and as children ; but hereafter shall see as face to face , and know as we are known , when faith is done away , as being more Imperfect than Intuition . We have evidence to prove , that the Revelation made to David , Isaiah , Jeremiah , Peter , Paul , &c. were of God , and that their words are by us to be believed , &c. But to see , hear , taste , feel , &c. would be a more quieting Assurance . Therefore when all the sound senses of all men living , perceive after consecration , that there is Bread and Wine , this Certainty is , 1. in order antecedent to that of faith , and 2. by Evidence , more satisfying and assuring than that of meer faith , as to a prophets Revelation ; And therefore to reject it on pretence of faith , is a subversion of all natural methods of assurance ; and is but pretended , I think , by your selves . The sixth Principle . That except those Immediate Inspirations which none but the Inspired do Immediately and clearly perceive , we have no Revelations from God , but by signes ; which are created beings ; and have their several Natures , and so may be called Physical , though signifying Moral things . And thus far our natural and supernatural Revelations agree . R. Every being is either Vncreated ( which is God only ) or Created ( in a large sense , that is Caused : ) What God Revealed to Christ , Peter , Paul , &c. we have knowledge of , but by signes : In Scripture these signes are Words : These words signifie partly the mind of God , and the speakers or writers , and partly the matter spoken or written . When it is said , that It is impossible for God to lye , it can mean nothing to us , but that it is impossible that God should make us a deceitful sign of his will. The voice of an Angel , Prophet , Apostle , a thousand Miracles , &c. are but signes of the matter and of Gods will : And if God can ordinarily make false natural signes , we are left unassured that he cannot make false signes by an Angel , or a Prophet , or a Miracle . And so all faith is left uncertain . P. Then you will make God a lyar or deceiver whenever any man is deceived by natural signes . R. Not so : For men may deceive themselves by taking those for signes of a thing which are none , and so by misunderstanding them . And the Devil and bad men may promote this deceit . But whenever God giveth man so plain a sign of the Matter and his Will , as that no errour of an unsound sense , an unqualified object , a culpable or diseased fantasie or Intellect , interveneth , then if we are deceived it can be none but God that doth deceive us ; which cannot be , because he cannot lye . And as it is an unresistible argument against the Dominican doctrine of Physical Predetermination as absolutely necessary to all acts of natural or free agents , that If God physically predetermine every lyar to ivery lye , that is mentally conceived or uttered , then we have no certainty but he might do so by the Prophets and Apostles ; so is it as good an argument against Papists , that ▪ if he ordinarily deceive the senses of all sound men by a false appearance of things seeming sensible , he may do so also by the audible or legible words of a prophet . The seventh Principle . That he that will confute sense , and prove that we should not Judge according to its perceptions , must prove it by some more certain evidence that contradicteth it . R. I suppose you will not question this . P. No : The word or Revelation of God is a more certain evidence . R. How know you that there is any word of God , but by your senses ? P. But yet by sense I may get a certainty which is above that of things sensible . As I know by the world that there is a God , by a certainty above that of sense . R. 1. If that were so , yet if things sensible be your media , you destroy your Conclusion by denying them , and undermine your own foundation . 2. But it is not true : The knowledge of the Conclusion can be no stronger than that of the principles , even of the weaker of them . If you are in any uncertainty whether there be Sun , Moon , Heaven , Earth , Man , Beast , Heat , Cold or any Created sensible being , you must needs be in as much doubt whether there be a God that made them . The eighth Principle . That Believing or Assenting is Intellection of the Truth of something revealed , and therefore must have Intelligible Evidence of Truth in the thing believed . R. I know that Assiance or Trust as it is the act of the Will , reposing it self quietly on the Believed fidelity of God , is not Intellection . But the Assenting act is an Intellection or an Act of Knowledge of a Verity ; not as Science is narrowly confined to principles , but as Knowledge is taken in genere for notitia . So to believe is no other than to know that this is true , because God saith it . Joh. 6.69 . We believe and are sure that thou art that Christ , &c. Joh. 3.2 . We know that thou art a Teacher come from God , for no man could do such works , &c. Joh. 21.24 . We know that his testimony is true — See Rom. 7.14 . & 8.28 . 2 Cor. 5.1 . We know that if this earthly house , &c. 1 Tim. 1.8 . 1 Joh. 3.2 . Joh. 8.28 , 32. 1 Cor. 15.58 . We know that our Labour is not in vain , &c. Therefore your denying the certainty where the evidence is most notorious , and telling men of Meriting if they will but believe your Church , without any Evidence of certainty , is a meer cheat . The ninth Principle ▪ That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour of the World , and that Christianity is the true Religion , and Gods appointed sufficient way to Heaven , including Godliness , which is its final part . R. By Christianity I mean both our Believing , Loving and obeying Christ as the way to the Father , and our Believing , Loving and Obeying God our Father , as the end of Christs Mediation : The Knowledge of God and the Mediator being Eternal Life , Joh. 17.3 . And as Taking a man for my Physicion , is taking him , by his medicines to help me to my health , and so Health is finally included ▪ so taking Christ for my Saviour , is to take him by faith to be the means of bringing me to the Love of God and to Glory : And so I include Godliness in Christianity , and the Law of Nature in the Law of Grace . P. We are agreed on the truth of this : but not of the medium by which it must be made known to us . R. At the present I ask no more than that we agree in Christianity as the true and sufficient Religion and way to life . The tenth Principle . That Baptizing is our Christening : And that all that are truly Baptized are Christians , and members of the visible Church , untill they Apostatize or are justly excommunicate ( at least . ) P. I grant you all this as a common Principle with Christians . R. Then you grant us , 1. That our Religion is the True Religion ; of Gods appointment , sufficient to salvation : For it is Christianity , which you confessed to be such . 2. You grant that we are baptized into the true Catholick Church , which is the body of Christ . The eleventh Principle . That all that are truly Baptized have the pardon of all their sins , and have present right to salvation if they so die . R. I mean , that they that are Internally true Consenters to the baptismal Covenant , and are baptized , have all these benefits of Baptism : And that Infants have them as rightly dedicated to God and baptized : Do not you Consent to this ? P. Yes , you know we do . R. Then you fully grant , that all among the Protestants who in Infancy or at age are truly baptized are in a state of salvation : Why then would you make people believe that there is no salvation in our Churches , when you grant the right to all that are Baptized . P. But you are not Baptized by lawful Ministers . R. Take heed what you say : Your party holdeth that even Schismaticks and Hereticks Baptism is valid , if they have all that is essential to Baptizing in the doing of it : Yea that a lay mans , or womans baptizing is valid . If you deny it , I will shame you , by producing the common consent of your Doctors ; and your censure of Cyprian , and making the contrary doctrine to be a Heresie . P. But you have not all that is essential to Baptism , because you are not intentionally Baptized , into the true Catholick Roman Church : For while you are not subject to the Pope , you are not baptized into the Church : and therefore Bellarmine sheweth that indirectly we are obliged to the Pope by baptism ; which you intend not . R. Come , come , strive not against your knowledge . 1. If our Baptism have not all that is essential , why do you never rebaptize Protestants when they turn to you ? Do you not find that you condemn your selves ? 2. Why do not you your selves put the name of the Pope into your words of baptism ? 3. Doth your Tradition tell you that the ancient Churches did baptize men into a subjection to the Pope ? 4. Did any of the Primitive Christians baptize men into the name or subjection of Peter or any Apostle ? 5. Doth not Paul expresly renounce it as to himself and Peter , 1 Cor. 1.12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Every one of you saith , I am of Paul , and I of Apollo , and I of Cephas , and I of Christ : Is Christ divided ? Was Paul Crucified for you ? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul , &c. 6. Did not Christ himself tell us all that was Essential to baptism in his institution , Matth. 28 without making any mention of Peter or the Pope ? P. I cannot deny but our doctrine inferreth that all that are baptized among you have a true Sacrament , but not the Benefit of it , and so are not in a state of pardon and salvation : Or at least when you come to age , by refusing the Pope , you turn Hereticks and lose it . R. I know some of your divided writers say that we have Sacramentum , but not Rem Sacramenti : But 1. You say that a Character is imprinted by Baptism , and all sin done away , and the person in a state of life , unless he come feignedly ; which you will not charge on Infants , nor can you prove it by those of the Anabaptists themselves that are baptized at age . And saith Aquinas when the fiction ceaseth , the fruits of baptism are obtained . 2. And it will be long ere you will prove that to be baptized into the name of the Trinity is uneffectual , if we leave out the Pope . 3. And you will hardly make a man understand what you mean by the validity of the Baptism of Hereticks and Schismaticks , if it neither take the Baptized into the true Visible Church , nor the invisible ( or a state of saving grace ) . And as to Infants losing it as you say at age by Heresie . 1. Will you save all the Anabaptists , that are baptized at age ? If their baptism put them into a state of salvation , and they continue just of the same faith and mind that they were baptized in , sure that faith which put them in a state of salvation , will keep them in it ; or not be damning through defectiveness to morrow , which made them heirs of Heaven to day . But you cannot make your doctrines hang together . 2. And they that are Baptized in Infancy are baptized into the same faith which they continue in at age . The Minister intendeth no other : The Parents , Sponsors , &c. intend no other : And will that prove defective even to Salvation after , which was saving then ? 3. If Baptism make us Christians ; and if Christianity be the true Religion , sufficient in suo genere to salvation , then we that continue in the Christianity which we were baptized into , by your confession continue in the true saving Religion ; And this is all our Religion . P. It is not every one that owneth Christianity that shall be saved : Hereticks own it in general , and yet contradict it by their Heresies . R. It is every one that truly owneth Christianity in mind and will that shall be saved : else Christianity were not a saving sufficient Religion : The question is not whether objective Christianity or faith be sufficient to save him that believeth not , or is not subjectively a Christian ; nor whether the doctrine of faith be sufficient in omni genere : But whether it be a sufficient doctrine , or ob●ective faith , in suo genere ? If a Heretick deny any essential part of it , he believeth not that which he ( really , understandingly and prevalently ) denyeth . It is but the Name of Christianity , and not the Thing , which he owneth , who disowneth any of the essence . Our question is now whether our professed objective Faith be true and sufficient ? When you come to prove us heretical denyers of any of its essence , we will give you a sufficient answer . The twelfth Principle . That the Essence of our Religion or Christianity as Active and Saving , is Faith that worketh by Love : Or such a Belief in God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , as is accompanied with a true devoting of our selves to him , by Love and willingness to obey his Laws , so far as we know them ; in opposition to the temptations of the world , the flesh and the Devil : And he that is truly such shall be saved . P. I grant that he that truly Loveth God , shall be saved : But a Protestant cannot truly love God , because he hath not true faith . R. Do you not agree and confess then , that If any Protestants do truly Love God , and are sincerely willing to obey his will , and to know it that they may obey it , such are of the true Religion and shall be saved , and that popery which denyeth their salvation is false ? P. If your false supposition were true , these false consequents would be true : But you are all deceived when you think that you sincerely Love God , and are willing to know and do his will. R. 1. Let all Protestants note this first , that you grant that none but ☞ falshearted Hypocrites , that are not what they profess to be , and Love not God , nor would obey him , should turn Papists . 2. And if a man cannot know his own Mind and Will , what he Loveth and what he is willing of , no not about his End and greatest concernments , how can he know when he Believeth aright ? Why do you trouble the world thus with your noise about Believing the Proposals of your Church , if a man cannot know whether he believe or not ? ☞ And he that cannot know what he Willeth , Chooseth or Loveth , can no more know what he believeth . For the Acts of the Will are more plenary and easily perceived . And do all Papists know their own Hearts or Minds , but no Protestants ? What would you expect but indignation and derision by such arguing as this , if you will go about the world and tell men , [ You none of you know your own Minds and wills , but we know them ; You think you Love God , and are willing to obey him ; but you are all mistaken , it is not so with you : but you must believe our Pope and his Council , and then you may know your own minds and hearts . ] They that believe you on these rates , deserve the deceit of believing you ; and punish themselves . The thirteenth Principle . That when Christ described all the Essence of Christianity , by our Believing in and being baptized into , the name of the Father , the Son and the Holy Ghost , the Apostles and first Pastors of the Churches , instructed people to understand the meaning of these three Articles ; And the ancient Creed called the Apostles , is the exposition of them , as to Belief : And that this Creed was of old the symbol of the true faith , by which men were supposed sufficiently qualified for baptism , and distinguished from Hereticks : which after was enlarged by occasion of heresies to the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed ; To which that called Athanasius's was added as a fuller explication of the doctrine of the Trinity : And he that believed all these , was taken for one of the true Christian Religion , which was sufficient in suo genere to salvation . P. All that was then Necessary to be explicitely believed , necessitate medii , was expressed in the Creeds ( if not more ) : But not all that is now necessary when the Church hath proposed more . R. 1. Some of you say , no more is necessary ut medium , but to believe that God is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him : Others say that the chief articles of the Creed also are commonly necessary : And in your discord we lay no great weight on your Opinions . 2. But is not Christianity the same Thing now as it was at the beginning ? Is Baptism altered ? Hath not a Christian now the same definition as then ? Are not Christs promises and the Conditions the same ? Shall not he that was a Christian then , be saved if he were now alive ? May not we be Christians , and saved by the same Constitutive Causes which made men Christians , and saved them in the primitive Churches ? Subvert not Christianity , and confound not the Church , and cheat not poor souls , by labouring to hide the essence of Christianity , and such plain important truths . You cannot deny our faith to be true , without condemning the ancient Church and Christianity it self : While we aloud profess that the Christian faith explained in all the ancient Creeds , is the faith which we own , in its Essentials explicated . The fourteenth Principle . That the Books which the Protestants commonly receive as Canonical Scriptures , are in the agreeing Original Copies , as to the very words , and in true Translations as to the sence , the most true Infallible word of God. R. I grant that where the Copies disagree by various Readings , we are no more sure that any of them is the word of God , than we are sure , that such a Copy is righter than all that differ from it . But as long as the essence of Christianity on which our Salvation is laid , is in the Covenant of Grace , explained in Credondis in the Creed , and in Petendis , in the Lords Prayer , and in Agendis in the Decalogue as explained by Christ . And no one Duty or material doctrine of our Religion dependeth on the various Lections , but those texts that Agree are sufficient to establish them all ; yea , as Franc. à Sancta Clara system . fid . professeth , the ordinary Translations so agree , as that no material point of Religion doth depend on any of their differences ; It is as much as we assert , that the Agreeing Original Copies , and the sound-Translations , so far as they are such , are the True Infallible word of God ; the former both as to words and sence , and the later as to sence alone . Do you not grant this ? P. We grant the Scripture as you say to be Gods Infallible word ; But 1. You cannot know it to be so , because you take it not on the Roman Churches Authoritative Proposal ; 2. And you leave out part of it . R. 1. Whether we can know it , shall be tryed in due place . 2. And whether we have All of it , or enough , is another question , to be debated when you will. You grant us expresly that which we now desire ; which is the Infallible Truth of our Canonical Scripture . And this is All our Religion , containing not only the Essentials , but all the Integrals , and Accidentals needful to be recorded . So that All the Protestants Religion is confessed to be Infallibly True. And from hence further note , that in all our disputes , you are obliged to be the defendants , as to Truth : For we deny the Truth of much of your Religion , but you deny not the Truth of one word of ours : but only the Plenitude or Sufficiency . P. The name of a Protestant was never known till Luthers time : And the occasion of it was a particular Protestation of the German Princes , and not directly a Protesting against Popery . R. It is not Names but Religion which we dispute of . And it is that which each party Professeth to be their Religion . Therefore you must take our Profession or you change the subject of the dispute . And we profess , that the Law of Nature ( which no sober man questioneth ) and the Scriptures , are All our Religion . Therefore if you please you shall suppose that the name Protestant were not now in the world : It doth not signifie our Religion . But we now use it to signifie our Protesting against Popery , or that we agree in substance , and in rejecting Popery , with those that made that particular Protestation mentioned by you . Names are oft given from accidents ; as Africanus , Germanicus , Britannicus , &c. to several Roman Captains ; when yet their Humanity was the same before they were so named . P. Turks , Socinians , Quakers , &c. Protest against Popery : It seems then they are Protestants too ; and your companions . R. 1. Thus some men study to deceive , by turning from the question to another . Our question I tell you is Whether the Religion of the Protestants be Infallible ? and not , Whence is their name ? 2. But by a Protestant we mean only one that taketh the Scripture for the Rule , and Christianity for the Essence of his Religion : Which no one doth that denyeth any essential part of it . If we do so , prove it , and you shall have our answer . How do you judge of any man among your selves that taketh Gods word proposed by your Church for his Religion , and yet mistaketh the Church in any point : As Durandus that thought the matter of Bread continues , whom Bellarmine yet denyeth to be an Heretick . So is it with any among us that mistake the sence of Scripture in some such point . When a Name is put upon any person or party from a common accident , you may if you will call all by that name which that accident agreeth to : And so Papists are called by some Non-conformists now in England , because they Conform not : But the world knoweth well enough that it is Protestants which are commonly meant by that name , and not Papists , Quakers , Seekers , &c. though these conform not . And so you may say if it please your self that Turks , Jews , Heathens , Socinians , Quakers , Ran●ers , are Protestants , because they Protest against , or reject Popery : But the world knoweth who is meant by the Name , Even Christians rejecting proper Popery . And for my part , I deal openly with you , I care not if the name Protestant were utterly cast aside ; If any man be so deceived by it as 1. Either to think that it signifieth the Essence of our Religion ( unless you mean as we Protest for Christianity . ) 2. Or that we take those called Protestants for the whole Catholick Church , they make it an occasion of their own deceit : Names of distinction are used , because men know not else readily how to speak intelligibly of one another without circumlocutions : And then cometh the Sectarian , and taketh his Party , for all the Church ( at least which he may lawfully Communicate with ) , and the name of his party to notifie his Religion . And then comes the crafty Papist , and pretends from hence that such a named Religion is new ; and asketh you , where was there any ( e. g. ) Protestants before Luther ? My Religion is naked Christianity , the same as is where the name of a Protestant is not known , and as was before it was known ; and as if the name of the Pope had never been known . But now the Pope and his Monarchical Vsurpation over all the world , are risen and known , I am one of those that protest against them , as being against Christianity which is my Religion ; But so as to addict my self to the opinions of no man or party that opposeth them , wholly and absolutely and beyond evidence of truth : I take the Reformed Churches , to be the soundest in the world : But I take their Confessions to be all the Imperfect expressions of men ; and the Writings of Protestant Divines to be some more clear and sound , and some more dark , empty , and less sound , and in many things I differ from many of them . Choose now whether you will call me a Protestant or not ; I tell you my Religion , which is simple Christianity : Names are at your own Will. I could almost wish that there were no name known besides that of CHRISTIAN as notifying our faith and Religion , in the Christian world ( Though as notifying Heresie and sin , there must be proper names , as in Rev. the name Nicolaitans is used ) . Even the word Catholick had long a narrower sense in the Empire with many than I now own it in . Though as it signifieth One that is of the Church Vniversal , loveth Vniversally all true Christians , and hath Communion with them in Faith , Love , and Hope , so I like it , and am A CATHOLICK CHRISTIAN . I dispute for nothing else ; I perswade this person here in Doubt , to nothing else ; but 1. To hold fast to true and meer Christianity ; 2. To Reject all in Popery or any other Sect that is Evidently against it ; 3. To suspend his belief of all that 's doubtful , and to receive nothing as a part of Divine faith or Religion , till he be sure that indeed it is of God. And now these Principles being supposed , let us proceed , and try whether Popery be of God or not . PART III. The Protestants Reasons against Popery . D. I Have heard what you have said in stating the Protestants Religion : I now expect to hear what Reasons you have against that which you call Popery : And afterwards that you prove all that you charge upon it . But I adjure you first that you say nothing but what you believe in your conscience to be the truth , as one that looketh to be judged for it . R. With many Papists confident and vehement protestations go instead of Arguments , and we oft hear them say , [ If this be not true , I am content to be torn in a thousand pieces : We will seal it with our blood : We will lay our salvation on it : And do you think we have not souls to save ? &c. ] Which is much like as if they would end all Controversies by laying Wagers that they are in the right , or by protesting that they are honester and credibler men than their adversaries : And it is no more than a Quaker or other such Sectary will say : the most proud and ignorant being usually the most confident : But yet though I expect not that you should receive any thing from me , upon Protestations , but upon Proofs , I will here promise you that I will charge nothing on the Papists , but what in my Conscience I am verily perswaded to be true . The Reasons which resolve me against Popery are these and such like . I. Reason , Their Doctrine of Transubstantiation is so notoriously false and inhumane , even contrary to the fullest ascertaining evidence that mankind can expect on earth , ( viz. for all men on pain of damnation to believe , that there is no Bread , and no Wine , when all the soundest senses of any men in the world , do perceive Bread and Wine , by seeing it , tasting it , feeling it , smelling it , and by the notorious effects ; and all this built upon no Revelation of God , no Reason at all , nor any true consent of the Primitive Church , but clean contrary to them all ; ) that I solemnly profess , that I find it an utter Impossibility to believe it : And it often puts me to a doubt , Whether it be possible for any mortal man unfeignedly and fully to believe it , and Whether there be really any such Papist in the world : or Whether most do not for carnal respects take on them to believe it , when they do not ; or rather the Vulgar understand their words , as not really excluding the true being of Bread and Wine ; and the rest only somewhat overawing their own reason with a reverence of their Church , so far as not to contradict , or so far as notionally to own it , when they do not from the heart believe the thing . So many contradictions , absurdities , and impieties are to be by them believed with it , that I am sure no man that understandeth them , can possibly believe them all . And all this must be done by Miracles , stupendious miracles , daily or common miracles , which every Priest can do at his pleasure , and never fail , sober or drunken , greater than raising a man from the dead ; so that every beastly , sordid , ignorant Priest , shall do more miracles by far , than ever Jesus Christ did in all his life on earth , as far as we know by the holy Records , ( if he live as long ) . He that can believe all this , may next believe , that there is neither Earth under his feet , nor the Firmament over his head , nor Water , nor Air , nor any other Creature , and that he hath no being himself . II. Reason : The Faith or Religion of the Papists , as described by themselves , is so far from Infallibility , as that it is utterly uncertain , unintelligible , and meer contradiction and confusion ; and a changeable thing ; so that no man knoweth whether he have it or not , and whether he have it all ; But whoever hath it , he hath certainly a hodge-podge of truth and falshood . III. Reason . Their Papacy , which essentiateth their Church , is a horrid Usurpation of Christs own Prerogative , and of an Office to do that which is incompaparably above the Natural Power or Capacity of any mortal man ; even to be the Apostle and Governour of the whole world ( of Christians at least ) ; To take Charge of all the souls on earth ; to teach and call those that are uncalled , and to Rule those that are baptized : even at the Antipodes , and in all those unknown or inaccessible parts of the world , which he hath no knowledge of : A far more arrogant undertaking , than to be the Civil Monarch of all the earth ; and utterly impossible for him to perform , and which never was performed by him . IV. Reason . The said Papacy is an arrogant Usurpation of the Power of all the Christian Princes and Pastors upon earth , or of a Power over them , never given by Christ : It setteth up a Kingdom in a Kingdom , and taketh from Pastors the power which Christ gave them , over their particular flocks . V. Reason . The said Papacy is a meer humane Institution : They confess themselves , that it is not of Divine faith that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor by Divine Right : It is no article of their own faith : But History fully assureth us , that it was but in the Roman Empire , that the Roman Bishop was made Supream : as the Archbishop of Canterbury is in England : And that he standeth on the same humane foundation as the other four Patriarchs of the Empire did . And that their General Councils were called by the Emperours , and were called General only with respect to that Empire . And there never was such a thing as a General Council of all the Christian world , nor ever can be : And that there never was such , is most notorious yet by the Names subscribed to all the Councils . But they abuse the world , and claim that power over all the Christians on earth , which one Prince gave his subject-Prelates in his Empire : As if the General Assembly of Scotland or France should pretend to be a General Council of the world , and the Archbishop of Canterbury should call himself Archbishop of all the Church on earth , and claim the government of it . VI. Reason : The said Papacy hold their claim of Supream Government as by Gods appointment ( though they confess as before said , that it is not de fide , that the Pope succeedeth Peter by Divine right ) and this notoriously Contrary to the Judgement and Tradition of the far greatest part of the Churches in the world : General Councils ( such as they had ) and the sense of the greatest part of Christians have determined against the Papal claime . And Tradition condemneth them to this day , while they plead Tradition . VII . Reason : It is Treason against Christ for the Papists who are but a Sect , and not the third part of the Christians in the world , to call themselves the whole Church , and unchurch all the rest , and seek to rob Christ of the far greatest part of his Kingdom , by denying them to be such : As if they would deny two third parts of this Kingdom to be the Kings . They are Sectaries and Schismaticks by this arrogant dividing from all the rest , and appropriating the name and priviledges of the Church to themselves alone . VIII . Reason : By making an unlawful and Impossible Condition and Center of Church Vnion , they are the greatest Schismaticks in all the world : The greatest Dividers of the Church upon pretence of Vnity : As he would be a divider of this Kingdom , who would set up a Vice-King without the Kings authority , and say that none that subject not themselves to him , shall be taken for subjects of the King. IX . Reason : They studiously brand themselves with Satans mark of malice , or uncharitableness and cruelty to mens souls : while they sentence to damnation two third parts of the Christian world , because they will not be the subjects of their Pope : And they think their way to Heaven is safest , because they are bolder than us in damning other Christians : Whereas Love is the mark by which Christs Disciples must be known to all . X. Reason : They are inhumanely cruel to mens bodies : And this is their very Religion : For the Council at the Laterane under Innocent the third decreed , that those that believe not , or deny Transubstantiation are Hereticks , and all Temporal Lords shall exterminate them from their Dominions : That is , no man shall be suffered to live under any Christian Lord , that will not renounce all his senses , and profess that he believeth that they are all deceived by God himself ; which is not only to renounce their Humanity , but their Animality or sense it self . So that no men indeed , are to be suffered to live , but only such as deny themselves to be men : What Heathens , what Turks , did ever exercise such Inhumane fury ? Besides their burning and tormenting men as Hereticks that will not do all this and more , and will not say as they require them . XI . Reason : Their Church indeed is invisible , while they deny it , and an unknown thing : For , 1. Men are forced into it by such bloody Laws , as that they cannot rationally be known to be Consenters : 2. And they have no certain faith to constitute a Church-member : For they hold that his obligation to believe , is according to his inward and outward means , of which no man can possibly judge : And so no man can know whether himself or another have that faith which is required as necessary to salvation . And many of them say , That they that believe not in Christ , have saving faith , and are in the Church , if they had not sufficient means . XII . Reason : The Papacy doth intolerably tyrannize over Kings , and teach such Doctrines of Perjury and Rebellion , as their very Religion , as is not in the practice of it to be endured in any Kingdom ; nor dare they fully practise it : The Crowns and Lives of Princes being at the mercy of the Pope ; As the said Laterane Council sheweth . XIII . Reason : Their Church is oft Essentially unholy , heretical and wicked , because the Pope is often so , who is an Essential part of it : And therefore it is not the holy Catholick Church . General Councils have upon examination judged their Popes to be Hereticks , Schismaticks , Adulterers , Murderers , Simonists , yea , guilty of Blasphemy or Infidelity it self . And the Church cannot be Holy , whose Essential part is so unholy . XIV . Reason : Their Churches succession is so notoriously interrupted , and their Papacy so often altered in its causes , as that it is become a confounded and a meer uncertain thing . So many notorious or judged Hereticks , Simonists , Murderers , Sodomites , Adulterers have possessed the Seat , who were therefore uncapable , that the line of succession must needs be interrupted by them . And so many wayes have they been made or elected , sometimes by the people , sometimes by the City-Presbyters , sometimes by Emperours , sometimes by Cardinals , sometimes by Councils , that if any one way of Election be necessary , they have lost their Papacy long ago . If no one way be necessary , then the Turk may make a Pope . XV. Reason : Their Church called One , is really two in specie ; one Headed by a Pope , and another by a General Council : For while the Head or Supream Ruler is an Essential part , and one part of the people own one Head and another part own another Head , ( as they do ) the Churches thus constituted cannot be One. And also de individuo there have been long two or three Popes at once , and consequently two or three Churches : And to this day none knoweth which was the right . XVI . Reason : They plead for a Church which never had a being in the world ; that is , All Christians Headed by one Pope ; When all the Christian world did never take him for their Head , nor were governed by him to this day . XVII . Reason : They dreadfully injure the holy Scriptures , as if Jesus Christ , and all the Prophets and Apostles in all those Sacred Records , had not had skill or will to speak intelligibly , and plainly to deliver us the doctrines necessary to salvation : But they make their Voluminous Councils more intelligible and sufficient ; as if they had done better than Christ and his Apostles : And when men must only Discern Gods Laws , and Judge Causes by the Law , they make themselves Judges of the Law it self , that is , of God the Judge of all , and of the Law by which they must be judged . XVIII . Reason : There is no other Sect of Christians under Heaven which hath so many differences among themselves , or have written so many Books against one another as the Papists : And though many of them are of great importance , yea , some are about the very Essence or Constitutive Head of their Church , yet have they no handsomer way to palliate all by , than by saying that these are but Opinions , and no Articles of faith , and the Infallible Judge dare not decide them : No though it be diversity of Expositions of Gods own Word , yet Commentators still differ without any hope of a decision , as if Gods Word were not to be believed , but were only the matter of uncertain Opinion , till the Pope and Council have expounded it , and no more Scripture is de fide than they expound . XIX . Reason : Perjury is made the very Character of their Church , or the brand by which it is stigmatized ; As is visible 1. In the Trent Oath imposed on their Clergy , which whoever taketh he is immediately perjured : and 2. By their disobliging men from Oaths and Vows ; even the Subjects of Princes from their Oaths of Allegiance , whenever the Pope shall excommunicate them , and give their Dominions to others , as is decreed Concil . Later . sub Innoc. 3. Can. 3. XX. Reason : They are guilty of Idolatry in their ordinary Worship by the Mass : while they worship Bread as their Lord God : Nor will it justifie them to say , that if they thought it to be Bread , they would not worship it : Any more than it would justifie Julian to say , that he would not worship the Sun , if he thought not that it was God : And they confess , that if it prove to be still Bread , their Worship will prove Idolatry : and we desire no other proof . And I am not able to justifie their sending God his Worship by a Cross , Crucifix , or other Image , as a medium cultum , from being a gross Violation of the second Commandment : ( which they leave out ) . XXI . Reason : Their Religion greatly tendeth to Mortifie Christianity , and turn it into a dead Image , by destroying much of its life and power : 1. By befriending Ignorance , and hiding the holy Scripture , forbidding all the people to read them in a known tongue without a special license : blaspheming Gods Word , as if so read , it had more tendency or likelihood to hurt men than to profit them , to damn them than to save them ; when they will say otherwise of all their own Vulgar postils and such like writings . 2. And by teaching the people a blind devotion , viz. to pray in an unknown tongue , and to worship God by words not understood . 3. And by making up a Religion much , if not far most , of external formalities , and a multitude of ceremonies , and the opus operatum of their various Sacraments ; As if God delighted in such actions as befit not the acceptance of a grave and sober man ; or as if Guilt and Sin would be wiped off , and charmed away into virtue and holiness , by such corporeal motions , shews and words . XXII . Reason : Their Religion , though it thus tend to gratifie the ungodly by deceitful remedies and hopes , yet is very uncomfortable to the godly . For , 1. By it no man can know that he is a true believer , and not a child of Hell , ( much less that he shall be saved : ) For they teach that no Divine can tell them what Articles are necessary to be believed to salvation : But they must be so many as are suited to every ones capacity , and means , during his life . And no man living can know that he understandeth and believeth as much as his capacity and means were in their kind sufficient to : Nay , there is no man that hath not been culpably ignorant of somewhat which he might have known . 2. Mens Sacramental receptions and comforts depend on the Intention of the Priest , which no man knoweth . 3. Almost all Godly men must expect the fire of Purgatory : and consequently none of them can be rationally willing to dye : Because this life is better than Purgatory ; and no man will desire to go from hence into the fire : And so by making all men unwilling to dye , it destroyeth a heavenly mind , and killeth faith , and hope , and love , and holy joy , and tempteth men to be worldlings , and to love this life better than the next . Yea , it tempteth men to be afraid of Martyrdom , lest ( dying in Venial sins , as all do ) they go to a Purgatory fire , more terrible than Martyrdom . XXIII . Reason : Their Doctrine is not only contrary to many express Texts of Holy Scripture , but also contrary to it self : One Pope and one Council having decreed one thing , and another the clean contrary . XXIV . Reason : All this evil is made more pernicious , by that professed Impenitence which is included in the conceit of their Churches Infallibility : For they that hold themselves Infallible , do profess never to Repent , of any thing in which they suppose themselves to be so . And as Repentance is the great evidence of the pardon of sin ; so Impenitency is that mortal sign of an unpardoned soul , without which no sin doth qualifie the sinner to be Excommunicated by man , or damned by God : And a sin materially less , is more Mortal unrepented of , than a greater truly lamented and forsaken . XXV . Reason : Every honest godly Protestant may be as sure that Popery is false , as he is that he is himself sincere , and Loveth God , and is truly willing to obey him . And no man can turn Papist , without self-contradiction , who is a true Christian , and an honest man : For by turning Papist he confesseth himself to be before a false-hearted hypocrite , who neither Loved God , nor sincerely desired to obey him , nor was true to his Baptismal Covenant . For it is a part of Popery to believe that none are in a state of salvation , but the Subjects of the Pope , or members of the Papal Church ; And consequently that no others have true Faith , Repentance or Love to God : Or else that God is false in promising salvation , to all that have true Faith , Repentance and Love to God. All therefore that know their own hearts to be truly devoted to God , are safe from Popery ; And seeing it is agreed on both sides , that none can or ought to turn Papists but ungodly hypocrites ( or Knaves ) no wonder if such are deluded by the most palpable deceits , and forsaken of God whom they perfidiously forsook . I will name you no more : If I make these , or any one of these good ( as I undertake to prove them all ) , you will see that I refuse not my self to be a Papist without sufficient cause . And yet by this charge you will see that I am none of their extream adversaries : I pass by abundance of Doctrinal differences , wherein by many they are most deeply charged : Not as Justifying them against all or most so charged on them , but 1. As giving you those Reasons which most move my self , and which I am most able to make good , and leaving every one to his proper work : 2. And as one that have certainly found out , that in many doctrinals seeming to be the matter of our widest difference , we are thought by many to differ much more than we do ; 1. The difference lying most in Words , and Logical Notions , and various wayes of mens expressing their conceptions : 2. And the animosity of men engaged in Parties and Interests against each other , causing most to take all in the worst sense , and to make each other seem far more erroneous than they are , and to turn differing names into damnable heresies : And 3. Few men having Will and Skill to state controversies aright , and cut off mistaken seeming differences : 4. And few having honesty and self-denyal enough to incurr the censure of the ignorant Zealots of their own party , by seeming but impartial and just to their adversaries . I mean in such points , as 1. The Nature of Divine faith , Whether it be a perswasion that I am pardoned , &c. 2. Of Certainty of salvation , 3. And Certainty of perseverance , 4. Of Sanctification , 5. Of Justification , 6. Of Good works , 7. Of Merit , 8. Of Predestination , 9. Of Providence and the Cause of Sin : 10. Of Free-will , 11. Of Grace , 12. Of Imputation of Righteousness , 13. Of Universal Redemption , 14. Of Original Sin , and divers others : In all which I cannot justifie them , but am sure that the difference is made commonly to seem to be that which indeed it is not : In the true impartial stating whereof Lud. Le Blanck hath begun to do the Christian Churches most excellent service , worthy our great thanks , and his bearing all the Censures of the ignorant . PART IV. The First Charge made good against Transubstantiation : In which Popery is proved to be the Shame of Humane Nature , Contrary to SENSE , REASON , SCRIPTURE and TRADITION , or the judgement of the Antient and Present Church ; devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels . CHAP. I. The First Reason to prove Transubstantiation false . R. THe Papists Belief of Transubstantiation is , that There is a change made of the whole substance of the Bread into the body of Christ , and of the whole substance of Wine into his blood . Their opinion ( called their faith ) hath two parts : The first is , that There is no more true Proper Bread and Wine after the words of Consecration , Hoc est Corpus meum . The second is , that There is the true proper Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ , under the species ( as they call them ) of Bread and Wine . It is the first that I shall now prove false : And you must not forget the state of the Question , which is not , Whether Christs Body and Blood be present ? But Whether there remain any Bread and Wine ? Arg. I. If there remain no Bread and Wine after the Consecration , then all the senses of all the sound men in the world are deceived , or all mens perception of these sensible things deceived , though there be due magnitude , site , distance of the object , a due abode , and a due medium and no depravation of the sense or intellect . But this Consequent is notoriously false , ( as shall be proved ) Therefore Popery is false . 1. That all mens senses perceive Bread and Wine , or all mens Intellects by their senses , will not be denyed . Not only Protestants , but Greeks , Mahometans , Heathens , Papists , all persons perception by sense is here the same : Therefore it is sound senses or else there are none sound in the world . 2. It is not one sense , but all . The eye seeth Bread and Wine : The hand and mouth feel it ; The palate tasteth it ; The smelling sense smelleth the Wine ; yea , and the ear heareth it poured out . 3. It is in due quantity , and not an undiscernable Atome . 4. It is near the sense , and neither by too much distance or nearness made insensible . 5. It hath a due abode , and is not made insensible by hasty passing by . 6. The air , and light , and all necessary media of perception are present . So that there is nothing wanting to the sensibility of the object . P. And how do you prove all or any of these ? For ought you know , the media may be undue , the magnitude , site , distance , abode , may not be what they seem to be ; and so you prove not what you say . R. All that I am now saying , is , that All men of sound sense , in the world have these immediate clear perceptions : The Intellect by sense perceiveth the object as quantitative , as near , &c. This you dare not deny : So that if this perception be false , and here be no Bread and Wine , then Sense or the Intellect discerning by the means of sense , is deceived . P. I say that the Senses or Intellects perception are deceived . R. I prove that they are not deceived ; or at least , that this kind of perception is the most certain that man on earth is capable of , and is to be trusted to by all men , and disbelieved or contradicted by none . Reason I. Because that humane nature is so formed , that the Intellect hath no other way of perceiving things sensible , but as they are first perceived by the sense , and by it transmitted to the Intellect ( or made its objects ) : And if about Spirits it hold not , that There is nothing in the Intellect , which was not first in the sense : yet about things sensible , it doth undenyably hold : And also that the Intellect of it self is not free to perceive things sensible otherwise than as they are sensed , or not to perceive them ; but is naturally necessitated to perceive them . So that it is a contradiction for a man to be a man , consisting of a reasonable soul , with sensitive faculties and a body , and yet not to be formed to judge of things sensible as sense perceiveth them . P. Then mad men cease to be men , if they judge otherwise . R. Mad men are your fittest presidents : But , 1. I told you how mans nature is made by God to judge of things : I told you not that this nature may not be vitiated , and hindered from right action . Did I ever say , that the eye may not be blinded , or the understanding distracted ? Blind men and mad men judge not according to the tendency of Nature , and therefore mis-judge . The Connexion of the Intellect to the sense is essential to man as man ; but so is not the soundness or right exercise of his faculties . Reason II. Hence I argue , that sensation and the understandings perception thereby , is the first perception of mans soul , and all that follow are but the rational improvements of it , and therefore ever presuppose it : The natural order of the souls apprehensions is this , beyond all controversie . First Sense perceiveth things sensible , and the Imagination the Images of them . Next the Vnderstanding by a simple perception conceiveth of them as it findeth them in the imagination . Thirdly , then by this Thinking or Knowing , we perceive also our own Act , that we do so Think or Know. And then Fourthly , We compound our conceptions , and form organical notions , and spin out conclusions from what we first perceive . Now if the first perceptions be uncertain or false , it must needs follow , that all those following thoughts , and reasonings which do but improve them , are at least as uncertain and false , if not more . So that there can be no more certainty in any of the Conclusions as such , than there is in the premises and principles . Therefore if mans first and most natural necessary perceptions are false , all the following actions or reasonings of his mind must be no better . All being finally resolved into these perceptions by sense , there is no Truth or Certainty in mans mind at all , if there be none in these . Reason III. Else you would infer , that God is not at all to be Believed , and that there is no such thing as Divine Faith and Religion in Certainty in the world : And so you would bring in , by unavoidable consequence , far worse Impiety , and Irreligiousness than Mahomet or Julian , or any Idolaters that I hear of on the earth . For you directly will overthrow the Divine Veracity , or Truth of Gods Revelations , which is the Formal Object of Faith , without which , it is no Faith. P. A heavy charge , if you can make it good . R. To make it good , do but first observe , 1. That Gods Essential Will or mind is not in it self immediately seen by man ; but known only by some Revelation . 2. That this Revelation is nothing but some SIGNES : For there is nothing in the Universe of Beings , but GOD and CREATURES and the ACTS or Works of Creatures . Now it is not Gods own Essence which is the Revelation in question . Therefore it must be either A Creature ( or work of God ) , or an Act or Work of a Creature . As the voice on Mount Sinai , and that of Christ at his baptism and transfiguration , and the written Tables of Stone , &c. were either the works of God immediately , and so created Signs of his mind ; or else the Acts of Angels , and so Imperate Signs of his mind . Nor it is not the ordinariness or extraordinariness of the way of making these signs , which maketh them currant and true , or credible : For if God can make a Natural false sign , he can make a supernatural false one , for ought any mortal man can prove . Only all the question is , Whether it be indeed a sign of the mind and will of God or not ? Now the works of Nature are Gods Natural Signs , and his Natural objective Light and Law ; as the perception of them is the Subjective or Active Light and Law of Nature : Something of God , these Natural signs do signifie or reveal plainly , and some things darkly : And so it is with supernatural signs ; As the written Tables , the voice of an Angel , the words of an inspired Prophet or Apostle , &c. Now there is no other way for God to speak or reveal falsly , could he do it , but 1. Either to make a false sign , naturally or supernaturally , or 2. To determine mans sense or mind to a false perception . And if God can do this naturally , why not supernaturally ? Nay , à fortiore mark how you teach the Infidel to inferr ? 1. Gods Natural Revelations are Common , and his supernatural rare . 2. Gods Natural Revelations are most certainly his own Acts : But how far a Voice or Book from a Spirit , may be the Act of that Spirit or Angel as a free Agent , and how far that Agent is fallible or defectible , we could not tell , if we had not farther Evidence of Gods owning it . Therefore if you make Gods own ordinary Natural Revelations or significations to be false , how will you be able to disprove the Infidel about the rest ? 3. And then note , that our Case is yet lower and plainer than all this : For if the very Being of the Creatures , which is the Matter of these Signs be uncertain to us , and all our senses and minds deceived about it , then we have no place for enquiry , Whether this Creature be any sign of the mind of God. As if the hearing of all men was deceived , that thought they heard that voice , [ This is my Beloved Son ] or Pauls , that thought he heard Christ speak to him [ Saul , Saul , &c. ] or if their Eyes and Intellects were deceived , that thought they saw Christ and his miracles ; or that think now that they read the Bible , and indeed there be no such thing as a Bible , no such words , &c. then there is no room to enquire what they signifie : For nothing hath no signification . Truth and Goodness are affections or modes of Being : And if we cannot by all our sound senses know the Being of things , we can much less know that they are True or Good. Therefore all knowledge , and all faith , and all Religion is overthrown by your denyal of the truth of our Senses and Intellects perception of things sensible . Reason IV. And by this means you are not capable of being disputed with , nor any Controversie between you and any others in the world , of being decided , while you deny sense . For then you agree not with mankind in any one common principle . And they that agree in nothing , can dispute of nothing . For this is the first principle : Est vel non est is first to be agreed on , before we can dispute any farther of a substance . What will you do to confute an adversary , but drive him to deny a certain principle ? And can you drive him to deny a lower fundamental Principle , than the Being of a substance perceived by sense , yea , by all the sound senses of all men in the world ? Reason V. Yea , it is specially to be noted , that our difference is not only about the species of a sensible substance , but about the very substance it self in genere , Whether all our senses perceive any substance at all , or not . Suppose the question were , Whether it be water or not , which all mens senses see in Rivers ? If a Papist would deny it to be water , doubtless he denyed the agreeing judgement of all mens Intellect by sense . But if he should also say , It is no substance , which we call water or earth , This were to deny the first Principle , and most fundamental perception in nature . Now that this is your case , is undenyable . For , 1. You profess , that Christs Body and Blood are not sensible there ; That it is not the quantity , shape , number , colour , smell , weight , &c. of Christs Body and Blood which we perceive , and that these Accidents are not the Accidents of Christ . 2. And you believe that the Bread and Wine is gone , that is , changed into the body and blood of Christ ; so that no part of their substance , matter or form is left . And you put no third substance under these Accidents in the stead . So that you maintain , that it is the quantity of nothing , the figure of nothing , the colour , the weight , the scituation , the smell , the number , &c. of nothing , which all mens Intellects by sense perceive . So that the Controversie is , Whether it be any substance at all which by those accidents we perceive ? And when we see , handle , taste , smell it , you believe ( or say you believe ) that it is none ; neither Bread or Wine , or any other : Now if by sense we cannot be sure of the very Being of a substance , we can be sure of nothing in the world . Reason VI. Yea , it is to be noted , that though Brutes have no Intellects , yet their Sense and Imagination herein wholly agreeth with the common perception of man : A Dog or a Mouse will eat the bread as common bread , and a Swine will drink the Wine as common Wine : and therefore have the same perception of it as of common bread and wine ; And so their senses must be all deceived as well as mans . And Brutes have as accurate perfect senses as men have , and some much more . And meer natural operations are more certain and constant ( as we see by the worlds experience ) than meer Reason and Argumentation . Birds and Beasts are constant in their perceptions and course of action , being not left to the power of Mutable free-will . Reason VII . You hereby quite overthrow your own foundation , which is fetcht from the Concord of all your party , which you call all the Church : You think that a General Council could not agree to any thing a● an Article of faith if it were not such ; ( when it is bu● the Major Vote that agree ) ; You say that Traditio● is Infallible , because All the Church agreeth in i● ( when it is perhaps but your Sect , which is a Mino● part ) . But do you not overthrow all this , when yo● profess , that All the senses of all the sound men in th● world , and all the simple perceptions of their Intellect● by sense , do agree , that there is substance , yea , d● specie Bread and Wine after the Consecration ? No on● mans perception by sense disagreed in this , from th● institution of the Sacrament to this day , that can be proved , or the least probability of it given . And i● this Concord be no proof , much less is yours : For ▪ 1. The Intellect in Reasoning is more fallible than i● its Immediate perception of things sensed ( or perceived by sense ) . 2. Yours is but the Consent of some men ; but ours is the Consent of all mankind . Yours among your selves hath oft in Councils a Minor part of dissenters , who must be overvoted by the rest : But our Case hath never one dissenting sense or perception . Reason VIII . By this denyal of sense , you overthrow the foundations of Humane Converse : How can men make any sure Contracts , or perform any duty on a sure ground , if the Concordant senses of all the world be false ? Parents cannot be sure which are their own Children ; nor Children which are their own Parents : Husbands cannot certainly know their own Wives from their neighbours . No Subjects can certainly know their own Prince . No man can be sure , whether he buy or sell , receive money or pay it , &c. No man can be sure that there is a Pope , or Priest , or man in the world . Reason IX . You seem to me to Blaspheme God , and to make him the greatest Deceiver of mankind , even in his holy Worship : Whereas God cannot lye ; It is impossible : And the Devil is the Father of lyes : And you make God to tell all the world ( as plainly as if words told them ) even by demonstration to their sight , smell , feeling , taste , that , here is Bread and Wine , when there is none ; yea , that it is at least some substance which they perceive , when it is none at all . Reason X. You thus fain God to be Cruel to Mankind , and that under pretence of Grace ; Even to put such hard Conditions of salvation on man , which seem to us impossible , to any but mad men , or those who by faction have cast their minds into a dream . If these be Gods Conditions , that no man shall be saved , that doth not believe that all his senses , and all the senses of all the world , are deceived when they perceive Bread and Wine , or substance , many may take on them to believe it , but few will believe it , and be saved indeed . Reason XI . Hereby you make the Gospel or New Covenant to be far harder and more rigorous than either the Law of Moses , or the Law of Innocency : For neither of these did damn men for believing the agreeing senses of all mankind : Perfect Obedience , to a perfect nature , was fit to be a delight . The burdensome Ceremonies had no such Impossibilities in them . None of them obliged men to renounce all their senses , and to come to Heaven by so hard a way . Reason XII . You seem to me to Contradict Gods Law and terms of life , and to forge the clean contrary as his : He saith , He that cometh to God must Believe that God is , &c. and He that believeth shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned : But you seem to me to say in plain effect , [ He that Believeth Gods Natural Revelations to all mens senses shall be damned , and that believeth that the said Revelations are false , may be saved , caeteris paribus . ] Reas . XIII . And what a thing by this do you mak● Gods Grace to be ? Whereas true Grace is the Repaire● and perfecter of Nature , you make it to be the destroye● and deceiver of Nature . The use of Grace according to your faith is to cause men to believe that Gods natural Revelations are false , and that all the senses of th● world in this matter are deceived : Whereas a mad ma● can believe this without Grace . Reas . XIV . By this doctrine you abominably corrupt the Church with hypocrisie , while all that will hav● Communion with you , must be forced to profess tha● all mens senses are thus deceived : And can you thin● that really they can all believe it ? or rather you● Church must be mostly made up of gross hypocrites who falsly take on them to believe it when they do not . Reas . XV. And by this means you make the Vnity of the Church to become a meer Impossibility : For you● condition of union is , that men all believe this among other Articles of your faith : And that man hath lost o● vitiated his humanity who can believe and expect , tha● all Christians in the world should ever believe that al● the senses of all the world are thus deceived . You might as well say , The Church shall never have Unity till all Christians do believe that David or Christ was a Worm and no man , a door , a Vine , a thief , a Rock , in proper sense ; or we shall have no unity till we renounce both our humanity and animality and the light and Law of God in Nature . And after this to cry up Vnity , and cry down Schism , what abominable hypocrisie is it ? Reas . XVI . And by this doctrine what bloody inhumanity is become the brand or Character of your Church ? When you decree Concil . Later . sub . Innoc. 3. Can. 3. that all that will not thus renounce their senses , and give the lie to Gods natural revelations , shall be excommunicated and utterly undone in this World , even banished from all that they have , and from the Land of their Nativity ; Yea your Inquisition must torture and burn them , and your Writ de hereticis comburendis must be issued out against them , to fry them to death in flames , if they will not renounce the common senses of mankind . Reas . XVII . And it even amazeth me to think what horrid Tyrants you would thus make all Christian Princes ! When the said Canon determineth that they shall be first Excommunicate and then cast out of their Dominions , which shall be given to others , and their subjects absolved from their allegiance and fidelity , except they will exterminate all these as hereticks from their Dominions , who will not give the lye to all mens senses and to Gods natural Revelations . The plain English is , ☞ He shall not be the Lord of his own Dominions who will have men to be his subjects , or such as will not renounce both their humanity and animality or sense . For to perceive substances in genere & in specie by sense , and to believe or trust the Common senses of all the World about things sensible , as being the surest way that we have of perception , is as necessary to a Man as Ratiocination is . Choose then O ye Princes of the Earth , whether you will be Papists , and whether you will have no men to be your Subjects , even none that believe the senses of themselves and all the world . Reas . XVIII . Thus also your Idolatry exceedeth in absurdity the Idolatry of all the Heathens else in the World : Even Canibals and the most barbarous Nations upon Earth . For if they call men to Worship an Image , the Sun , the Moon , an Ox or an Onion ( of which the Egyptians are accused ) they do but say that some spiritual or celestial numen affixeth his operative presence to this Creature : But they never make men swear that there is no Image , or Sun or Moon or Ox or Onion left , but that the whole substance of it is turned into God , or somewhat else . Your Absurdities tend to make the grossest Idolatry seem comparatively to yours , a very fair and tolerable errour . Reas . XIX . By these means you expose Christianity to the scorn of humane nature , and all the world . You teach Heathens , Mahometans and other Infidels to deride Christ as we do Mahomet ; and to say that a Christian Maketh and Eateth his God , and his faith is a Believing that Gods supernatural Revelations are a lie , and that God is like the Devil the great Deceiver of the world . Wo be to the world because of offences , and wo be to him by whom offence cometh . Reas . XX. Lastly by this means you are the grand pernicious hinderers of the Conversion of the Heathen and Infidel world : For you do as it were proclaim to them ; [ Never turn Christians till you will believe that Gods Natural Revelations are false , and that all mens senses in the world are deceived , in judging that there is Bread , Wine , or sensible substance after the words of Consecration . ] These are the mischievous Consequents of your doctrine . But one benefit I confess doth come by occasion of it ; that it is easier hereby to believe that there are Devils , when we see how they can deceive men : and to believe the evil of sin , when we see how it maketh men mad ; and to believe that there is a Hell , when we see such a Hell already on Earth , as Learned Pompous Clergie men , that have studied to attain this malignant madness to decree to fry men in the flames and damn them to Hell , and give them no peace or quietness in the World , unless they will say , that Gods Natural Revelations are false , and that all mens senses are herein deceived , by God as the great deceiver of the World. CHAP. II. The Papists Answers to all this confuted . P. IT is easie to make any cause seem odious , till the accusations are answered , which I shall confidently do in the present case . I. All this is but argument from sense : And sense must vail to faith : Gods word must be believed before our senses . R. It is easie to cheat fools and children into a dream , with a sound of empty words : To talk of senses vailing to faith and such like Canting , and insignificant words , may serve turn with that sort of men . But sober men will tell you that sense is in exercise in order of Nature at least before Reason or faith , and that we are Men and Animals before we are Christians : And that the truth and certainty of faith , presupposeth the Truth and Certainty of sense . Tell me else , if sense be false , how you know that there is a Man , or Pope , or Priest in the World ? that there is a Book or Voice , or any being ? And what possibility then have you of Believing ? P. Gods Revelation is surer than our senses ? R. This is the old song over and over . Revelation without sense ( to you and ordinary Christians at least ) is a contradiction . How know you that God hath any revelations ? If by preachers words , How know you that there is a preacher , or a word but by sense ? If by books , How know you that there is a book , but by sense ? P. II. We may trust sense in all other things , where God doth not contradict it : But not in this One Case , because God forbiddeth us . R. Say so of your Church too , your Pope , Council or Traditions ; that we may trust them in all cases save one or two , in which it is certain that they do lye ! And will not any man conclude , that he that can lye in one case , can lye in more ? If one Text of Gods word were false , and you would say , You may believe all the rest save that , how will you ever prove it ? For the formal object of faith is gone , which is the Divine Veracity ; He that can lye once , can lye twice . So if all our senses be false in this instance , how shall we know that they are ever true ? P. You may know it because God saith it . R. 1. Where doth God say it ? 2. How shall I be sure that he saith it ? If you say , that it is written in Scripture ; besides that there is no such word ; How shall I know that all mens senses are not deceived in thinking that there is a Scripture , or such a word in it ? If you say that the Council saith it , How shall I know that there is a man or ever was a Council , or a Book in the world ? The certainty of Conclusions presupposeth the certainty of premises and principles : And the certainty of faith and Reasoning , presupposeth the certainty of sense : And if you deny this , you deny all , and in vain plead for the rest . P. I must believe my senses , where I have no reason to disbelieve them . But when God contradicteth them , I have reason to disbelieve them . R. 1. You vainly suppose without proof that God contradicteth them . So you may say , I may or must believe the Scripture or an Apostle , Prophet or Miracle , except God contradict them . But if God contradict them , he contradicteth his own word or revelation : For we have no other from him , but by man : And if he contradict himself , or his own word , how can I believe him , or know which of his words it is that 's true , when one is false ? so here : His Natural Revelation is his first , nearest , and most satisfactory revelation : And if that be said to be false by his supernatural revelation , which shall I believe , and why ? P. III. You cannot deny but God can deceive our senses . And therefore if he can , will you conclude against all faith if once he do it ? R. 1. This is not once ; but as oft as God is worshiped in your Mass and our Sacrament . 2. God can deceive us without a Lie , but not by a Lie. Christ deceived the two Disciples , Luke 24. by carrying it as if he would have gone further ; but not by saying that he would go further . God can do that from which he knoweth that man will take occasion of deceit . God can blind a mans eyes , or destroy or corrupt his other senses ; he can present an object defectively , with unmeet mediums , distance , site , &c. In this case he doth not give us a FALSE SIGN ; nor doth he by the Nature of the Revelation oblige any man to believe it : Yea Nature saith , that a man is not to Judge by a vitiated sense , or an unmeet medium , or a too distant object , or where the due qualification of the sense or object are wanting : Nature there tells us that we are there to suppose or suspect that we are uncapable of certainty : But Nature obligeth us to believe sound senses about duly qualified objects ; and to take sense for sound when all the senses of all the men in the world agree ; and the object to be a duly qualified object of sense , when all mens senses in the world so perceive it . For we have no way but by sense to know what is an object of sense . 3. The question is not what God can do by his power , if he will ; but what God will do , and can will to do , in consistency with his perfection , and just and merciful Government of the World. And God in making us men whose Intellects are naturally to perceive things sensible by the means of the perception of sense , doth naturally oblige man and necessitate him also , to trust his senses in such perception . And in Nature man hath no surer way of apprehension : Therefore if you could prove that sense is ordinarily fallible , and Gods revelations to it false , yet man were not only allowed but necessitated to use and trust it , as having no better surer way of apprehension : As among many knaves or lyars , I must most trust the honestest and most trusty , when I have no better to trust . If I am not sure that it is a Sun or Light that I see , yet I am sure that I must take my perception of it as a Sun or Light as it is ; For God hath given me no better . If I am not sure that my sight , feeling , taste , &c. are infallible ; yet I am sure that I am made of God to use them ; and that I have no better senses , nor a better way to be certain of their proper objects : so that I must take and trust them as they are , or cease to be a man. P. IV. Christs Body and Blood are not sensible objects ; and therefore sense is no proper judge whether they be present . R. This is one of your gross kind of cheats , to change the question . We are not yet come to the question , Whether Christs Body and blood be here ? And I grant you that sense is no judge of that , any more than whether an Angel be here . But the question is now only , Whether Bread or Wine or sensible substance be here ? And of this we have no natural way but by sense to judge . P. V. If God should say to you [ Your senses are in this deceived ; Here is no bread or wine or sensible substance ] Would you not believe him ? R. 1. Again I tell you , it is a supposition not to be put : As if you should say , [ If God should say , that part of the Gospel or word of God is false , would you not believe him ? ] 2. If I know that God telleth me that some disease or false medium , &c. deceive me or another in particular , I will believe him : But here it is supposed , 1. That I have assurance that it is God that tells me so ; 2. And that I have no assurance that common sense saith the contrary . But if the sense of all the world about a well scituate object of sense agree , I will not take that to be Gods word which contradicteth it , till I have some evidence which is better and stronger than the agreeing senses of all the world to prove it to be so . And what evidence must that be ? I assure you somewhat greater than the authority of a beastly ignorant murdering Pope , and his factious Council . P. VI. Cartesius giveth you an instance of deception of sight : We think a square Tower of a Steeple to b● round till we come neer it : And the water seemeth to us to move when it is the boat . R. Cartesius and you do seem to be Confederate , to put out the eye of nature , and tempt the world to Infidelity , if not to Atheism . 1. Nature tells us that a distan● Steeple or other object , is not perfectly discernible and therefore Nature forbiddeth us to judge till w● come neerer . We speak only of objects duly scituate an● qualified . 2. The failing of the sight there is but Negative : It discerneth not the corners : but here yo● feign it to be positive . 3. As the errour is corrigibl● by nearer approach , so also by the use of other sense● ▪ If a man feel the Tower that is square , he will infallibly perceive it . But if you could prove that this squar● Tower is no Tower , no Stone , no Substance at all , thoug● all the world should judge otherwise that see it at th● meetest distance , and feel it with their hands , then you did something to the purpose . So as to the moving water or banks , 1. Motion is not so evident as substance . 2. Though one sense , through the weakness of the brain be insufficient , the Intellect by the same sense about other objects , and by other senses can infallibly discern what that one perceiveth not . 3. And if one mans eyes deceive him who is in the boat , ten thousand mens eyes that stand on the firm land , perceive the truth : But in our case it is all the senses of all the world , in all ages , about the neerest object , that agree . P. VII . Substance is not the proper object of sense , but only Accidents : We see , feel , taste , smell the accidents , but not the substances . R. 1. If you can name some notional speculator or Word-maker that hath said so , you think you have authority to renounce humanity by it . Call it proper or not-proper , substance is the certain object of sense as cloathed with its accidents . Quantity and the res quanta are not two things , but one : And he that feeleth or seeth quantity , feeleth or seeth the rem quantam . He that seeth or feeleth shape or figure , seeth or feeleth the thing figured . He that smelleth odor , smel●eth rem odoratam ; He that seeth Colour , seeth the rem coloratam . When to feel the superficies , you feel ●he substance . 2. By this we see how by words you will unman mankind . Have you any way of perception of corporal substances but by sense ? Do you know that there is any Earth or Water , or any corporal substance in the world , or not ? If you do , tell us how you know it but by the ●erception of sense presenting it to the Intellect ? You know that you must thus know it , or not at all . 3. And thus still you would bring men with Scepticism to Infidelity . You would teach men , that they that saw Christ were not sure that they saw him or any substance at all , but only the accidents , called Quantity , Shape , Colour , &c. They that saw Apostles , Miracles , Bibles , Councils , were not sure that they saw any more than accidents , &c. P. VIII . They that saw Angels appearing to them like men , or the Holy Ghost descending on Christ in the shape of a Dove , thought they saw Men and a Dove : So Moses Rod did seem a Serpent . But their senses did deceive them . R. Their senses were not at all deceived : And if by rash judging they would go beyond sense , and wilfully deceive themselves , it was their fault . Their sense saw the shape or likeness of a man and dove . The text saith , not that the Holy Ghost was a dove , but that it descended in the likeness of a Dove : and their senses perceived no more . And this was true . A man consisteth of a soul and a body of flesh and blood : Did sense perceive any of this in the Angels ? either , soul , flesh or blood ? or any such thing in the appearance of a dove ? If I see your picture or statue , is my sense deceived if I take it not for a living man ? It I see it moved , is my sense deceived if I take it not for any other than a moving Image ? Nature doth not bind me to take every simile to be idem ; a corps for a man ; an Image for the person . It will be foolishness so to take it . But if this Angel , or Dove , had come near to the senses , all the senses , of all sorts of men , and they had seen , and felt , and tasted , and smelt , all that are the objects of these senses , and yet there had been indeed no visible , tactible , sensible substance at all , this had been a deception of the senses remediless . Christ I am sure appealed to sense , to prove that he had flesh and blood and was not a meer spirit . The same I say of Moses Rod : either it was really a Serpent or not ; If it was , then it was no deception to judge it such : If not , sense was not at all deceived : For it perceived nothing but the similitude and motion , and those ( with the substance ) were certainly there . But if all mens senses , seeing , feeling , tasting , &c. had been deceived , and there had been indeed no shape of a Serpent , nor any sensible substance at all but Accidents real without any substance , this had been indeed a deception of the senses . And if God so subvert mans nature , he will not bind him to do the things which belong to the nature of man to do . But by all this we may perceive , that there is no end of Controversies with you to be hoped for : For how is it possible to bring any thing to a more satisfying issue , than when the senses of all the world do as clearly perceive it , as any sensible thing can be perceived ? If our difference were whether this be Paper , and these be Letters ; or whether this be a Pen , a Table , yea or a substance , and I should appeal to the sense of all the World , and yet this will not serve to decide the Controversie ; what end , or hope of ending can there be : I will sooner look for concord with a mad man , than with men that deny the senses of all the World. CHAP. III. The second Argument against Transubstantiation : The Contradictions of it . R. Arg. 2. GOd owneth not Contradictions ( nor can do ) . The Papists doctrine of Transubstantiation , or nullification of the whole substance of Bread and Wine , is contradictious : Therefore it is not owned by God. The Major I know no man that denyeth . The Contradictions are these . I. You feign many Accidents of no substance ; which is a gross contradiction . For to be an Accident is essentially Relative to a subject or substance : And ejus esse est inesse . To be a Father without a Son , or a Son without a Father , a Husband without a Wife , or a Wife without a Husband , &c. are contradictions : And so it is to be an Accident of nothing , or without a subject . Particularly , 1. The quantity of nothing is a contradiction : We can measure the Bread , and Wine : To be an inch in longitude , latitude or profundity , and yet to be no substance is a contradiction . To be ( as the Wine is ) a quart , a gallon of Nothing is a contradiction . 2. So for number ; we can number the wafers or pieces of Bread , and the Cups of Wine : And to be twenty , forty , an hundred nothings , is a contradiction . 3. So for the Weight , To be an ounce , a pound , or ten pound , of nothing , is a contradiction . 4. So for the figure or shape : It is a contradiction to be a round nothing , a square nothing , &c. 5. So is it to be a sweet nothing , a sharp nothing , an austere nothing , &c. as the Wine is fancied by you . 6. Or to be an odoriferous nothing : A rough or a smooth nothing , &c. 7. Or to be a white nothing , or a red nothing , or any coloured nothing . The same I may say of site , and of a multitude of Relations , &c. II. It is a contradiction , for Nothing to have all those Real notable effects , which it is certain that the consecrated Bread and Wine have . As , 1. That when a man or a beast , is really nourished by the Bread and Wine , and flesh and blood , and spirits are made of it , ( as they may live by it many months , ) that these should be the effects of nothing , or made out of no substance by way of Nutrition , without a proper Creation . 2. When the Consecrated Bread and Wine do partly turn to Excrements , Vrine , Dung and Spittle , that all the Excrements are nothings or made of nothing without a new Creation , is a contradiction . 3. When the Wine shall ( as it may do ) make a man or a swine drunk , that he is made drunk by nothing or no substance , when as that drunkenness is essentially the operation of the spirits of the Wine upon the spirits of him that drinks it , this also is a contradiction . And God maketh not contradictions true . P. It is the plea of an Infidel to say that God cannot do this or that . Will you limit the power of the Almighty ? Will you say that God cannot make Quantity , quality , site , &c. without substance , because we cannot ? It is blasphemy to say God cannot . R. God can do All things that are works of Power : God can do nothing which is a work of Impotency , defectiveness , naughtiness , or folly , or which are contradictions in themselves . And when we say God cannot , we do but say either that God is Perfect and Almighty , or that the thing is Nothing , but a false name , and not capable of being any ones work . God cannot lye , because he is perfect and Almighty , and not because he wanteth power . God cannot make you to be a man and no man , a substance and no substance , in the same sence , at the same time : because it is a contradiction . But if this Argument did not hold , and it were no contradiction , for God to overturn his setled course of Nature , I shall shew you next that we have other reasons enough to judge that he doth it not . If he Can make darkness to give Light , and a clod to be to the World instead of the Sun , without changing it , or a stone to understand and speak without changing it , yet that God doth none of this , both reason and experience prove . CHAP. IV. The Third Argument against Transubstantiation : from the certain falshood of their assertion of multitudes of Miracles in it . R. THat doctrine which asserteth a multitude of false or feigned Miracles is false and not of God : But such is the doctrine of Transubstantiation — Ergo — I will 1. Shew you what Miracles it asserteth ; and 2. Prove that they are feigned or false . I. It is a Miracle for Bread and Wine to be turned into no Bread and Wine , yea , into nothing ; and this by the speaking of four words . II. It is a Miracle ( or Contradiction ) for the Bread and Wine to be turned into Christs Body and Blood , and yet neither the matter nor form of it to become any of the matter of Christs body and blood . III. It is a Miracle , ( or a contradiction rather as aforesaid ) for the Accidents to be the Accidents of Nothing , or no substance ; to be the quantity of Nothing , the shape , the number of nothing , the colour , savour , smell of nothing , and so of all the rest . IV. It is a Miracle to have all the sound senses of all sorts of men in the world so deceived herein , as to perceive bread , wine and substance , if there be none . V. It is a Miracle to have the senses of Mice and Rats , and Dogs and other Brutes also deceived when they eat and drink it . VI. It is a Miracle ( or contradiction ) to have nothing without a Creation , to become excrements : or else those excrements to be nothing also : And the Accidents of all those excrements to be the Accidents of Nothing . VII . It is a Miracle to be nourished by Nothing : ( For you say , that it is not Christs body and blood that nourisheth the flesh . ) To have flesh and blood made of nothing , is a creation . VIII . It is a Miracle to be drunk with nothing , when the Wine is annihilated or gone , and seemeth to be it that causeth the effect : Yea , for Beast or man to be so drunk . IX . It is a Miracle ( or contradiction ) for Christ to eat his own body ( as the Papists hold he did ) ; and yet it was his Whole Body which did eat his body , and yet he had but one body . X. It was a Miracle ( or contradiction ) for Christs entire body to be nourished by that eaten body , and that the eaten body turned into the substance of his eating body : And yet all was but one . XI . It was a Miracle that Christs Eaten body being not dead but living with a humane soul , should be broken and eaten by him and his disciples , and yet feel no pain by it . XII . It was a Miracle that his whole body was on the Cross ; and yet part of it in the disciples bellies at that time ; or at least before that eaten by them . XIII . It was a Miracle ( or contradiction ) that Christs eaten body now nourisheth not the flesh of any man ; and yet did nourish the flesh of the disciples before his death . Or if it did not nourish them , it was a Miracle that what they eat and drank then did not nourish them , ( or Christ what he eat and drank ) . XIV . It was a Miracle that the whole body of Christ should arise and live , and ascend to Heaven , when the disciples had eaten it . XV. It is a Miracle that every Receiver eateth the whole body of Christ , and not a part , and yet that he hath but one body ; or that they eat each a part without dividing him . XVI . It is a Miracle that as soon as the species of Bread and Wine perish or cease in the Eater , Christs body and blood ceaseth to be in him , and this without his detriment . XVII . It is a Miracle that there is such a local distance between the consecrated bread and wine all over the world ; and yet no such distance between the parts of Christs body , and yet that bread to be his body . XVIII . It is a Miracle that bread and wine is Annihilated or cease every Mass , and yet that the quantity of corporeal matter in the whole world is no whit diminished : or else that those four words can so annihilate and diminish the matter of the world . XIX . It is a Miracle that Christs body and blood increase not , when so many millions of parcells of bread and wine are turned into it . XX. It is a Miracle that Christs body and blood is not diminished , when by the Corruption of the species of bread and wine , it vanisheth away . XXI . It is a Miracle that Christs body and blood should be so received into the bowels of a wicked man , and yet not be any way defiled by his sin , nor by his bodily uncleanness . XXII . It is a Miracle that a Baker dispositively , and a Priest effectually can make his own God , and eat him when they have done . XXIII . It is a Miracle that when Worms are bred of that which was bread and wine , these worms are really generated of nothing , or created ; ( or if as some say , the bread and wine do substantially return again , and breed them , that is another , a double miracle . ) XXIV . And it is a Miracle that the Corporeal matter of the world should by these Worms be daily increased , out of nothing , or out of meer accidents that have no substance . XXV . It is a Miracle that men may be poysoned by the Sacramental Elements as ingredients in the mixture , and yet that they are no substance . XXVI . It is a Miracle or Contradiction , that when flesh and blood ( formally such ) enter not into the Kingdom of God , but Glorified bodies are all spiritual bodies ( though not Spirits ) , and therefore not flesh and blood : Yet Christs body in the Sacrament should be truly and properly flesh and blood , and yet the same with his glorified body ( which is not flesh and blood : ) which is the Papists doctrine ; and the bread turned into such flesh . XXVII . It is a Miracle that the same Body which in Heaven is brighter in Glory than the Sun , and exalted above Angels , should yet shew no signs of Glory on the Altar , in the Cup , in the hand , mouth or belly of him that taketh it ; but all its Glory be so hid . XXVIII . It is a Miracle ( or Contradiction ) that Christs Humiliation should be past , and his whole Body Glorified , and yet that to be torn with the teeth of a wicked man , to be eaten by Mice , Rats or Dogs , to go into the filthy guts , to be trodden in the dirt , should be neither painful , nor any diminution of the Glory of that same body . Indeed his body on the Cross might be broken , and his blood spilt and trodden on , because he was a sacrifice for sin ; and it was the time of his Voluntary Humiliation : But now for the suffering of death he is crowned with Glory and Honour , Heb. 2.9 , 7. XXIX . It is a Miracle that the Living Body of our Glorified Redeemer should give no evidence or sign of life ; neither stir , nor speak , nor have breath , pulse , warmth , or other property of life appearing . XXX . It is a Miracle , at least , that flesh should have none of the common notes or properties of flesh , not to be made of food , of blood and chyme , not to consist of the fibrae which flesh consisteth of ; not to have the colour , taste , odour or other such accidents of flesh : And that Blood should have none of these notifying accidents of blood . XXXI . It is a Miracle or Contradiction , that Christs Flesh was Broken before it was broken , sacrificed before it was sacrificed , I mean really broken and sacrificed at his Supper , when yet he was whole and not really sacrificed till he was nailed to the Cross . And so that his blood was really and properly shed in his Supper , and yet no skin broken , nor his blood really shed till his side was pierced on the Cross . And that he that was but once offered and sacrificed , should yet be offered and sacrificed once on one day , and another time on another day . Here are one and thirty Miracles or Contradictions : Let us hear some of the Aggravations of them , as worthy to be considered . I. It is a Miracle of these Miracles , that there should be as many Miracle workers as Priests in the world : How many thousand are they in France alone ? And so in many other Countreys . Whereas in Christs own time , they were comparatively but few . II. That the Pope or any Prelate can make a Miracle worker when he please , yea , a thousand ; as if the Holy Ghost were at his will. III. It is a Miracle of these Miracles that a Simonist who buyeth the Priesthood with money , doth buy the Holy Ghost to work Miracles for that money , which Simon Magus was condemned for thinking possible . For the Papists hold , that the Consecration of a Simoniacal Priest transubstantiateth . IV. It is a Miracle that all this power of Miracles should be given to flagitious wicked men ; Adulterers , Murderers , Drunkards , &c. V. It is a Miracle that all these men can work Miracles at their own will and pleasure , at any hour : whereas the Apostles had not the Spirit at command , and could not do it when they would . VI. It is a Miracle that Miracles should be as common as Masses , or the Eucharistical worshipping of God ; not only on every Lords Day in all Church-assemblies , but any day or hour else in the Week . And so Miracles be as ordinary almost as to eat and drink . VII . It is a Miracle that every wicked Priest should do so many Miracles in one , and so many more in number than Christ himself did , in the same proportion of time , as far as the History of the Gospel telleth us : Christ is quite exceeded by them all . VIII . It is a Miracle that every wicked Priest can work all these Miracles so easily , as with the careless saying over four words : When the Apostles could not cast out some Devils , or work some Miracles , and some could not be done but by fasting and prayer . IX . It is a Miracle that every Priest can work all these Miracles upon an unbeliever or a wicked man : For to such they say , it is the real flesh and blood of Christ , and no bread or wine ; And the senses of all these wicked men are deceived . Whereas Christ himself could not do any great miraculous work among some where he came , because of their unbelief . X. It is a Miracle that God and the Priest should do these foresaid Miracles on Mice and Rats and other Beasts , by deceiving their senses , which we find not that Christ ever did : or that God should feed them with the miraculous accidents aforesaid . XI . It is a Miracle of these Miracles that the Priest can thus easily work Miracles not only on other creatures , but on the glorified body of Christ himself , ( by the foresaid changes , &c. ) XII . It is a Miracle , that when Christ wrought his Miracles usually before a far smaller number , these Priests work Miracles thus before or on the senses of all the men in the world that will be present at the Mass ; for all their senses are deceived . XIII . It is a Miracle that the Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , Protestants , yea , any that they call Schismaticks , and Hereticks , who do not intend to work any Miracle , nor believe Transubstantiation , do yet work Miracles in each Sacramental administration of the Eucharist , not only without their knowledge , but contrary to their belief , and against their wills : For they say , that even such mens consecration is effectual . XIV . Either their Priests consecration worketh all these Miracles , when they intend it not , ( as if they speak the words in jeast or scorn , or in Infidelity , ) or only when they intend it . If the first be said , it is a Miracle of Miracles , that any Priest can work so many and great Miracles by a jeast or scorn — If not , then all the business is come to nothing , and no one but the Priest knoweth whether there be any such Miracle at all , and whether ever he eat the flesh of Christ : And so it will be in the power of the Priest to deceive and damn all the people , according to the Papists exposition of Christs words , Joh. 6. Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood , you have no life in you . XV. Either a malicious intention to a wrong end will be effectual in Consecration , or not . If not , none but the Priest knoweth that there is any body and blood of Christ , or that ever he received any : Because none knoweth though the Priest intend Consecration , whether he intend it to a right end . But if a wicked end will serve ( as I think most of them hold ) the Miracle may be great and sad . For any Roguish drunken malicious Priest may undo a Baker or Vintner at his pleasure , and by four words deprive him of all his Bread and Wine : Yea , he might nullifie all the Bread and Wine in the City , and so either make a famine at his pleasure , or else make whole Families and Cities live still and be nourished without any substance by bare Accidents , which would be a Miracle indeed . If the Priest can by consecration change only a convenient quantity of bread and wine , then all that is overmuch is bread and wine after consecration . If otherwise , why may he not change all the bread and wine in the Shop or Cellar where he cometh , intending consecration to an ill end ? If he can do it only on the Altar , then want of an Altar would frustrate the effect ( which they hold not ) . But if he can do it without an Altar he may do it in the Shop and Cellar . If he can do it only on the bread and wine present , how near must it be ? Then the words will work at so many yards distance , and not at so many . Or if he cannot do it out of sight , a blind Priest cannot do it . But if he can do it on that which is absent , we may fear lest in an anger he may take away all the bread and wine in the Land ; at least in a frolick to try his power . XVI . And it is some aggravaion of these manifold Miracles that a Degraded Priest can do them : Because they follow the indelible Character : And so he that hath once made a Miracle-worker , cannot take away his power again , nor his sin lose his power . Is not this a marvellous power of Miracles , which becometh like a nature to them , as the power of speaking is ? XVII . Yet is this Miracle-working-power more miraculous , in that a mans own unwillingness , or Repentance of his Calling cannot hinder the Miracle if he do but speak four words . Consent it self is not necessary to it : Let a man Repent that ever he was a Priest , and profess that he continueth in that Calling against his will , yea , let him write as I now do against Transubstantiation , yet all this will not hinder his next Consecration from working all the foresaid Miracles . XVIII . It is miraculous that if you keep a consecrated Wafer never so long , if you use it never so coursly , if you ( as he did who occasioned the conversion of Mr. Anthony Egan a late Irish Priest ) pawn it at an Ale-house for thirty shillings ; if you lay it down for a stake at Cards or Dice , &c. it will not cease to be Christs flesh ( and so by his blood , ) nor ever becomes bread , or any other substance till it corrupt : And yet in a mans stomach it ceaseth to be Christs body , as natural heat corrupteth it by concoction : And yet it is not Christs flesh that is concocted . XIX . It is a Miracle of this Miracle which Aquinas and others assert , that the Bread and Wine are not Annihilated , but wholly turned into Christs body and blood ; and yet , as Vasquez saith , It is not that the matter of bread begins to be under the form of Christs body ( as Durandus held . ) Saith Veron Reg. fid . cap. 5. This Transubstantiation is neither a change nor a production of any thing ; but it is a Relation of order between the substance that doth desist to be , and that into which it doth desist . And yet saith the Concil . Trident. There is a change made of the whole substance into , &c. XX. Lastly , It is a Miracle that all these Miracles should be done so as not to appear to the senses of any man living , either to Convert Unbelievers or Confirm the faithful : So that millions of these Miracles are seen and not seen ; the Priest , and Action , and Accidents are seen , but no Miracle seen by any . So that Aquinas concludeth 3. q. 76. a. 7 , [ Though Christ be existent in this Sacrament per modum substantiae , yet neither bodily eyes , nor our Intellects can see him , but by faith : no nor the Intellect of an Angel can see him secundum sua naturalia ; nor do Devils see him but by faith ; nor the blessed , but in the Divine Essence . ] All these make these Miracles far more miraculous than the raising of Lazarus from the dead . WHether all these are Miracles , or most or many of them Contradictions , and therefore Impossibilities , I make no great matter of at this time . I think it utterly needless to add any more to what is said in answer to such sayings as Aquinas's ( 3. q. 75. & 76. ) and other Schoolmen , that [ The senses are not deceived , because there are the Accidents , and the Intellect is by faith preserved from deception : that the remaining accidents are in quantitate dimensiva quasi in subjecto : that these Accidents can change an extrinsick body , can be corrupted , can generate Worms , can nourish , can be broken , &c. ] For all this at least confesseth , that its all done by Miracle : ( Though I will say , 1. That they could scarce have chosen a more unhappy pro-subject of Accidents than Quantity , nor have given more unhappy reasons for it than Aquinas doth q. 77. a. 2. c. 1. Because the sense perceiveth that it is Aliquid quantum , that is coloured . 2. Because Quantity is the first disposition of matter , &c. For this includeth matter : and Aliquid quantum is a word that giveth away his Cause : And no Accident is more the same with its subject than Quantity , or moles extensiva . 2. And he will be long before he will make or prove mans nature to be such , as that his Intellect can judge of substances by Believing , as incomplex objects , before it have perceived them by sense and imagination . When we see , taste , smell , feel , hear them , the Intellect will suddenly and necessarily have some species or perception of the Thing , before it come Logically to dispute from extrinsick media of Testimony , What this thing is in a second notion . And our question is , Whether the Intellect in this first Perception be deceived , or not ? If you discharge the Intellect from perceiving substances presently , before it know them by second notions or Argument , you will make man quite another thing , than every hour and action tells us he is : But what will not a man say , when he sets himself only to study what to say for the making good of his undertaken Cause ? But my next work is to prove the Falshood of these pretended Miracles . CHAP. V. The Minor proved , viz. That these Miracles are false . THat these are all but feigned Miracles , I thus prove . I. Because the holy Scriptures do plainly deny such an ordinariness or commonness of the gift of Miracles . 1 Cor. 12.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. [ To one is given by the spirit the word of Wisdom , to another the word of Knowledge by the same spirit , to another faith by the same spirit , to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit , to another the working of miracles , &c. But all these worketh that one and the self same spirit ; dividing to every man severally as he will. 28 , 29. And God hath set some in the Church , first Apostles , secondarily Prophets , thirdly Teachers , after that miracles , then gifts of healing , helps , Governments , diversities of tongues : Are all Apostles ? are all Prophets ? are all Teachers ? are all workers of Miracles . ] Here it is most expresly told us , that working Miracles is a peculiar gift of some , and even in those times not common to all that were Priests . But the Papists make it common to every Priest , though a common Adulterer , Drunkard , Murderer or Heretick ; no one Priest in the world is without it . II. Though some few that were workers of iniquity might have some such gifts , Matth. 7. Yet that was so rare , that Nature it self taught men to judge Miracles to be signs of divine approbation : so that Nicodemus thence argueth , Joh. 3.2 . No man could do these Miracles that thou dost except God be with him . And the man Joh. 9.31 . God heareth not sinners , but if any man be a Worshipper of God and doth his will , him he heareth . And the people , vers . 16. How can a man that is a sinner do such Miracles ? And it was Christs own proof that he was of God , and his Gospel true ; and therefore to Blaspheam his Miracles , by ascribing them to the Devil , was the unpardonable Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost : And to deny Miracles to be a sign of Gods attestation is to subvert all Christianity . Act. 2.22 . Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles , wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you — Joh. 5.36 . The same works that I do bear witness of me that the Father hath sent me . Joh. 10.25 , 37 , 38. The works that I do in my Fathers name , they bear witness of me — If I do not the works of my Father , believe me not : But if I do , though ye believe not me , believe the works , that ye may know and believe that the Father is in me , and I in him . Joh. 14.11 . Believe me for the very works sake . Joh. 15.24 . If I had not done among them the works that no other man did , they had not had sin . This also was Pauls proof of his Apostleship , yea and of the truth of all the Apostles doctrine : Heb. 2.3 , 4. God also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders , and divers Miracles , and gifts of the Holy Ghost , according to his own Will. Therefore that Doctrine is unlike to be true , which tells us that every wicked Priest in the world , though a Simonist , or an enemy of Christ and Godliness , and drown'd in all Vice , is such a constant miracle-worker : When God hateth all the workers of iniquity , Psal . 5.5 . III. But though this Reason be but probable , this following is demonstrative to a believer . That doctrine which maketh every Ignorant wicked or Heretical Priest in the world , far to excell the Prophets , Apostles , and Christ himself , in the Greatness , Number and facility of Miracles , is false : But such is this doctrine of Transubstantiation — I know that Christ telleth his Apostles [ Greater works than these shall ye do . ] But 1. There are Greater works ( such as the converting of greater numbers in the world ) which are not Greater Miracles : 2. And what was promised ●o the Apostles , as to Miracles , was not promised to every Priest in the world . I appeal to the Consciences of sober Christians , whether it sound not as an arrogant if not blaspheamous speech , to say that Christ and his Apostles did fewer and smaller miracles ( proportionable to their time ) than every Priest . And as to the Minor , it is soon proved in its parts . 1. As to the Greatness of the Miracles ; those of Christ were exceeding Great : especially his Raising Lazarus , and his own Resurrection , his turning water into Wine , and his feeding thousands with a little food — But he that will examine Transubstantiation as afore-described , shall find it to have more that is contrary to nature , than all these , by far . The substance of the dead body of Christ or Lazarus did not vanish , but remained to be the organized Recipient matter of the re-entring soul . There were no Accidents without substances , or other such things as are mentioned before . The multiplying of food , could at the most be but a new Creation ; But it was real food , and none of the contradictions or absurdities before recited . The turning of Water into Wine was likest this in the Papists opinion ; but indeed little like it . For the matter of the water there remained , with the form of Wine , and so became the Matter of Wine , and did not vanish : And here was real Wine , and real substance , and not Accidents without substances , deceiving all the senses or Intellectual perceptions . The same may be said of the miracles of the Apostles , compared with Transubstantiation . 2. And as to the Number , though Christs and his Apostles Miracles were very many , yet there is no Scripture-evidence that they were for number comparable ( for so much time ) to every Priests . Christs miracles are set down in the sacred history in such order , and the Evangelists so much agree in reciting the same miracles , that ( though St. John say ) the world could not contain the Books that should be written — yet we find no probability that they were neer so common as Masses are : when in several places where Christ came , they that looked after Miracles and Signs were denyed them , and had none , but were put off to the sign of the Prophet Jonah , &c. Yea Herod and Pilate were in this denyed their desired satisfaction ; and they that call to him for a miracle on the Cross . And so of the Apostles . But every Priest doth his miracles as oft as there is a Mass , though every day . 3. And as to the Facility I said before , that [ in his own Country , among his own kindred , he could do no mighty work save that he layed his hands on a few sick folk and healed them , and he marvelled at their unbelief ] Mark 6.4 , 5 , 6. And he some time groaned in spirit , and wept , ( as for Lazarus ) . And the Disciples could not cast out a Devil , Mar. 9.18 , 28. Luk. 9.40 . It was not to be done but by fasting and prayer . It s like Paul would have cured Trophimus if he could , when he left him sick . And as holy men spake , not when , nor as they pleased , but when and as they were inspired by the Holy Ghost : so did they work miracles , not arbitrarily , but at such times and in such manner as the spirit moved them . But any the most wicked Priest can do it at his pleasure , any hour of the day : and that but by reciting Hoc est corpus meum . Many other disparities appear in what is said before . IV. The End of the Gift of Miracles confuteth the feigned Miracles of Transubstantiation . The End of Christs gift was to prove him to be of God ( as is aforeshewed ) and to prove his Apostles to be of God , and to confirm the Gospel which they Preached , Mar. 16.17 , 18 , 19 , 20. Heb. 2.4 . As the gift of Tongues so other wonders , were to convince unbelievers , 1 Cor. 14. Act. 2. & 4.30 . & 5.12 . & 7.36 . & 8.13 . & 14.3 . 2 Cor. 12.12 . But the miracles of Transubstantiation are known to no unbeliever ; nor to any one in the world by any sense ; and have no such End , but a contrary effect . The Apostles who were to convert the world , and next Christ , to do the greatest good , were therefore to do the greatest miracles : And it was their argument for Christ , Joh. 7.31 . When Christ cometh will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done ? Yet now every ignorant Priest pretendeth to far more , who doth but tempt Infidels to deride Christianity by the pretence ; as we do Mahometanism , for Mahomets sport pretended with the Moon , and other such delirations . V. God is not to be said to work Miracles and cross the established course of nature without proof . But these pretended Miracles have no proof — No man living perceiveth them by sense . And that God telleth us of no such things by supernatural Revelation , shall be further shewed anon : In the mean time , it may satisfie us , that they bring us no proof , but their own affirmation , which they require us to believe . VI. The Matter of these pretended Miracles is expresly contradicted by the Word of God , as shall be proved in the next Chapter . VII . Ad hominem ; Do not the Papists forget themselves here , and contradict their other suppositions ? 1. They make Miracles to be one evidence of sanctity , and therefore Canonize men , when they think that they have proof that they wrought Miracles : And yet maintain that a Whoremonger , Drunkard or Heretick may do many more . 2. They make Miracles a proof that they are the true Church , and say that among us there are no Miracles ; and yet they confess that every Priest , among us and all others , whom they account Schismaticks and Hereticks , do more Miracles than Christ did ; if they consecrate frequently . 3. They burn men to ashes for working miracles , even for making God ; if so be , they do it not in the Roman fashion . 4. They confess that the other Sacraments are not thus made up of Miracles ; no not Baptism , which is our Christening , and washeth us from our sins : And yet this Sacrament alone , must by a multitude of Miracles differ from the rest . 4. Whether the Doctrine of their St. Thomas and his followers and others , that the formal words of this Sacrament have a created effective virtue by which they instrumentally make the change ( 3. q. 78. a. 4. c. ) be not an absurdity rather than a proper miracle . For words Physically move but the air first , and the terminus of the aires motion ( e.g. the ear ) next : and next that , if it be an intellectual , or other animal recipient , the sense , and fantasie next , and so on : But the Bread and Wine have no sense nor fantasie nor Intellect : And to say that the moved aire is the means of turning them into the body and blood of Christ , is still to multiply miracles . 5. Do they not too much magnifie the common work ( and consequently the office ) of a Priest , above the work of a Pope or Prelate , who seldom consecrate ? when the Priest worketh so many Miracles more than they ? 6. They conclude that a sinner that hath Voluntatem peccandi receiveth Baptism in vain , as to its ends of pardoning him , and therefore should not receive it ( Concil . Rom. Epist . Gregor . 7. Aquin. 3. q. 68. a. 4. c. &c. ) And yet , be the sinner never such an hypocrite or Infidel , he eateth Christs real flesh nevertheless , yea against his will , if he do but the outward act . 7. Is it not strange that an Infidel receiveth as verily the real flesh and blood of Christ as a Saint , and yet not the benefits or effects ? As if Christs flesh and blood could be in a mans body without his benefit : When he hath promised that he that eateth him , shall live by him . Yet see the measures of their faith and Church : Saith Aquinas ( 3. q. 80. a. 3. ad 2. ) [ Vnless perhaps an Infidel intend to Receive that which the Church giveth , though he have not true faith about other Articles or about this Sacrament ] then he may receive sacramentally . CHAP. VI. The fourth Argument . This Miraculous Transubstantiation is expresly contrary to the Word of God , in Scripture . Arg. 4. THe Papists say that there is no bread after the words of Consecration : Gods word saith , There is Bread after the Consecration : Therefore the Papists speak contrary to the Word of God. I. In 1 Cor. 11. It is called expresly BREAD after consecration no less than three times in three verses together , 26 , 27 , 28. [ For as oft as ye eat this Bread and Drink this cup , ye shew the Lords death till he come . Wherefore whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup ] : Here they that call for express words of Scripture for our doctrine , without our consequences , may see their own faith expresly contradicted , and our opposition justified : The Holy Ghost here expresly calleth it Bread : And yet no expresness nor evidence will satisfie them . P. By Bread is meant that which was Bread before , or else that which nourisheth the soul as Bread doth the body : And so it is metonymically only called Bread , as Christs Flesh is called Bread in Joh. 6. R. Why then do you call for express texts of Scripture as our proof , when that expresness signifieth nothing with you ; but you can say , It is a metonymie or a metaphor at your pleasure . But you say so against notorious Evidence : The Apostle calleth it Bread so often over and over , as if he had foreseen your inhumane heresie : He calleth it The Bread which is to be Eaten , joyned with Drinking the Cup ; never once calling either of them the Flesh or Blood of Christ , but as he reciteth Christs words which he expoundeth . Yea he telleth us that eating this bread , and drinking this cup , is to shew the Lords death till he come ; where he calleth us to look back at Christs death as past , in our Commemoration , and to look forward to his personal coming as future ; but never telleth us that we must kill Christ and eat him our selves ( when we have made him ) , nor that his body is there present under the accidents of Bread and Wine . But the rest of the Scriptures as expresly justifie our doctrine . 1 Cor. 10.15 . The Cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the Communion ( or Communication ) of the blood of Christ : And the Bread which we break , is it not the communion ( or participation ) of the body of Christ ? ] Here it is the Cup and the Bread after Consecration , if the Holy Ghost may be believed . And in the next words the Apostle repeateth it in his reason [ For we being Many are One Bread , and One Body ▪ For we all partake of one Bread ( or Loaf ) . ] Is not here express proof ? So Act. 20.7 . When we came together to break Bread — And v. 11. He ascending , and breaking bread , and eating &c. Here it is twice more called Bread after the Consecration ( which ever went before the Breaking ) . So Act. 2.42 , 46. It is twice more called Breaking of Bread. And what else can the recitation of Christs institution mean , 1 Cor. 11.23 , 24. Panem accepisse , fregisse ; to have taken Bread , and having given thanks , to have broken ? What is it that he brake ? It s non-sence if it have no accusative case that it respects ? And plain Grammatical construction tells us then , that it must be that before mentioned , What he Took he blessed , and brake and gave : But he took Bread and the Cup — . The same is in Mat. 26 , 26 , 27. and the other Evangelists . II. The Scriptures expresly ( Act. 2 , &c. ) make the Killing of Christ , and drawing his blood , to be the heynous sin of the Jews , for which some Repented and others were cast off : Therefore it is not to be believed that Christ did first kill or tear himself , and shed his own blood ; or that his disciples did kill him , or tear his flesh and shed his blood , before the Jews did it . And if they tore his flesh and drank his blood , and yet killed him not , the event altered not the fact : The Jews did but break his flesh and shed his blood . If you fly to a good intention , Paul will come in for some further excuse for his persecution . III. 1 Cor. 10.21 . Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord , and the cup of Devils : Ye cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Devils . — Here note 1. That the same phrase is used of the Participation of the Lords mysteries and the Devils . But it was not the flesh and blood or the substance of Devils which the Idolaters ever intended to partake of : but only their sacrifices . 2. It is here called only the Table and the Cup , and not the flesh and the blood . 3. It is said that They could not partake of both : whereas according to the Papists doctrine , if a man should partake of the Idols sacrifice in the morning , and of the Lords Table in the evening ( without repentance , ) he should really partake of Christs own flesh and blood ; which the Text saith cannot be done . P. It meaneth only , You cannot Lawfully , or you ought not to partake of both , but not that it is impossible or never done . R. No doubt but it meaneth that They ought not , or cannot Lawfully ; but that 's not all : The text plainly meaneth , You cannot have communion with both : You may take the bread and wine at your peril ; but you cannot partake of it as a sacramental feast which God prepareth you , and so partake of Christ therein . And the same is said ( expounding this ) 2 Cor. 6.15 . What concord hath Christ with Belial — and what agreement hath the temple of God with Idols ? ] Intimating that Communion with God and Idols , Christ and Belial , are ( so far ) inconsistent : But by the Papists doctrine an Idolater and Son of Belial may partake of the very substance of Christs body and blood , into his body , as verily as he partaketh of his meat and drink . IV. The Scripture teacheth us expresly to judge of sensible things by sense . Luk. 24.39 . [ Behold my hands and my feet , that it is I my self : handle me , and see ; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have . And when he had thus spoken , he shewed them his hands and his feet . ] And v. 43 , [ he did eat before them ] to confirm their faith . But they could have no more sensible evidence of any of this , than we have of the being of Bread and Wine , or some sensible substance after Consecration . Joh. 2.9 . they tasted the water turned into Wine , and were convinced . P. But the Body of Christ here is not a sensible thing . R. But Bread and Wine are sensible things . P. But They are not There ; and so are no objects of sense . R. But all our senses say that They are there ; and by them we must judge . P. Your senses perceive nothing but Accidents : and your understanding must believe God , and so ( as you noted out of Aquinas before ) there is no deceit either of sense or Intellect . R. Though this be answered fully before , I will again tell you , That these two notorious falshoods are all that you have to say against Humanity in this case , that 's worth the noting . I. It is false that you say that sense perceiveth not substance : When I take up a staff or stone in my hand , I do not only feel Roughness or Smoothness , &c. but a substance : It is a quantitative , and qualitative substance , which I feel , taste , smell , see and hear : And this I perceive by sensation it self , as the medium to the Intellect . It is not the sense indeed , but the Intellect that giveth it the Logical notion or definition of a substance ; but it is the sense it self that by sensation perceiveth it ; and to deny this is to deny all sense . And if it were not so , How could any such substance be known ? when it cannot come into the Intellect but by the sense ? II. ☞ Your great cheat ( or errour ) is by confounding the first and natural-necessary perception of a sensibile sensatum or incomplex object , by the Intellect , with the second conception of the Names of things , or of Organical second notions , and the third conception of them Artificially by the use of these names and Organical notions , and the fourth perception of Consequents from those conceptions . To know by Believing is but the third or fourth sort of knowledge , and presupposeth the two first . If a man had never heard a name or word in his life ; yet by sensation as soon as he saw , smelt , tasted , heard , handled things , his Intellect would have had a perception of the Thing it self as it was sensate ; And this is the Intellects first perception : And this is it which falleth under our question , Whether the Intellect in this first perception of a substance or Thing as sensate , be deceived or not , when the Thing hath the Conditions of an object before mentioned . 2. Next this we learn or invent Names and organical notions for things : And whether these be true or false , and whether they be apt or inept is all one . This is but an arbitrary work of art . 3. Next this we conceive of things by the Means of these Names and second notions , and examine the Congruence : and so we define them : And this is but a work of Artificial Reasoning , and presupposeth the first Natural necessary perception . Now Faith belongeth partly to this , and partly to the fourth , which is The raising of Conclusions , and the weaving of methods ; and presupposeth the first , yea and the second : It is but an assent given by the means of an Extrinsick Testimony of God , that this particular Word is True , &c. Now if the Intellect in its first Perception ( natural and necessary ) of the Thing it self , as sensate , be deceived , if faith should be contrary to it , 1. It must be such a Faith which is the immediate contrary perception of a sensate object ; which is no faith , nor is any such possible , ( properly called faith ) : 2. And if faith can come after and undeceive the Intellect , by saying that God saith otherwise , yet this would be no prevention of its deception , but a cure , presupposing the said deception as the disease to be cured . So that to say as Aquinas that faith preventeth the deceit of the Intellect , is a falshood contrary to the nature of man , and his natural way of acting , as he is composed of soul and body . I have said this over again , lest errour get advantage by the brevity and unobservedness of that which I said before . CHAP. VII . Argum. 5. All these miracles have not the least proof ; yea , the Scriptures fully direct us to a cross interpretation of the Papists pretended proofs ; which also are renounced by themselves . I Know of no Scripture proof in the World that the Papists pretend to , but the words , This is my Body , and This is my Blood , and such like . And that these are no proof I shall fully prove to any impartial man. I. The very nature of the Sacrament instituted by Christ with his expressed End , command our Reason to expound the word [ is ] of signification , representation or exhibition , and the word [ Body ] and [ Blood ] of a new Relative form only , that is , of a body and blood Representative , ( which is all one in effect ) : As a piece of Gold , Silver , or Brass , is by the law and stamp turned really into the Kings Current Coine ; and so hath a new Relative form : so that you may truly say that there is a change made of the Gold , or Silver into the Kings Coyn : and it is no more to be called meer Gold or Silver ( though it be Gold and Silver still ) , because the form denominateth , and the new form is now that in question which must denominate . Or as a Prince that is marryed in effigie or by a Representative to a woman , is not there personally ; and yet it is aptly said , This is the Prince which is betrothed or marryed to thee . Or as we say of Pictures , This is Peter , or Paul , or John. Or as when we deliver a man possession of a House by a Key , or of Land by a twig and a turf , or of a Church by the belrope , &c. and say , Take , this is such a House , or such a piece of Land , or Church , &c. As this is ordinary intelligible speech among all men , so Christ tells them that he would be so understood . 1. In that his Real natural body spake this , of the Bread and Wine which was not his natural body : His real natural body was present , visible , entire , unwounded , his blood unspilt , and did eat and drink ( the other , as the Papists hold , as being the same ) : And can any living man imagine that the Disciples who understood not his Death , Resurrection , Ascension , &c. yet understood by these four words , when they saw Christs body alive and present , that this Bread and Wine was that same Body and Blood , without any more questioning ? 2. In that he bids them , Do this in Remembrance of him ; which plainly speaketh a commemorating sign : Who will say at his last farewell when he is parting with his friends , I will stay among you , or keep me among you , in Remembrance of me ? So for Christ to say , Eat me in remembrance of me , were strange . II. It may put all out of Controversie to find , that Christs words of one half of the Sacrament are ( as they confess ) figurative ; therefore the other must be so judged also . Luk. 22.20 . This Cup is the new Testament in my blood , which is shed for you : 1 Cor. 11.25 . [ This Cup is the new Testament in my blood . ] And here no man denyeth a double Trope at least : no man expoundeth it , that the Cup or the Wine was the New Testament it self . And yet it is as expresly said , as it is that the Bread is the Body it self . How then will they prove that one is spoken properly , and the other figuratively ? III. There is no more found in these words to assert the Bread to be Christs Body , than is found in a multitude of such phrases in Scripture asserting things which all men expound otherwise . As in Joh. 15.1 . I am the Vine and my Father is the husbandman : Joh. 10.7 , 9. I am the door — Joh. 10.14 . I am the good Shepherd and know my Sheep : Psal . 22.6 . I am a worm and no man ( which being a prophesie of Christ , a Heretick imitating you , might deny Christs humanity : ) 1 Cor. 10.4 . That Rock was Christ — 1 Cor. 12.27 . Ye are the body of Christ — Mat. 5.13 , 14. Ye are the Salt of the earth : Ye are the lights of the World — Joh. 6.63 . The words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are Life . Abundance such are in the Scripture , as All flesh is grass : Christ is the Lamb of God : the Lyon of the Tribe of Juda ; the bright Morning Star ; the head Corner Stone , &c. And it is yet more fully satisfactory , that the Hebrew constantly putteth [ is ] for [ signifieth ] as you may find in all the old Testament ; having no other word so fit to express [ signifying ] by : And as Christ spake after that manner , so the New Testament ordinarily imitateth ; As Daniel and the Revelation agree in saying , of the Visions , This is such or such a thing , instead of this signifieth it . So Christ , Matth. 13.21 , 22 , 23 , 37 , 38 , 39. He that soweth is the Son of man : the field is the world : the good seed are the Children of the Kingdom ; the tares are the children of the wicked one : the enemy is the Devil , the Harvest is the end . The reapers are the Angels — And thus ordinarily . IV. Yea , the same kind of phrase used before in the Passeover , teacheth us how to expound this : Exod. 12.11 . Ye shall eat it in haste , It is the Lords Passeover — vers . 27. It is the sacrifice of the Lords Passeover . V. Yea the ordinary way and phrase of Christs teaching may yet farther put us out of doubt . For he usually taught by Parables , and expresseth his sense by such assertions : As Matth. 13.3 . Behold a sower went out to sow , &c. Luk. 15.11 , 12. A certain man had two sons , and the younger said , &c. Luk. 12.16 . The ground of a certain Rich man , &c. Luk. 16.19 . There was a certain Rich man , &c. Mat. 21.28 . A certain man had two sons , &c. Vers . 33. There was a certain housholder which planted a Vineyard , &c. The Gospel aboundeth with such instances , which teach us how to interpret these words of Christ . VI. But most certainly all those forementioned texts teach it us , which expresly call it Bread after the Consecration . If we will not believe the Holy Ghost himself , who so frequently calleth it bread , it is in vain to alledge any text of Scripture in the Controversie . Now to feign a course of ordinary Miracles , Greater and more than Christs , and this to every Priest , how ignorant and impious soever ; to pretend that every Pope and Bishop can for money sell the Holy Ghost or the Gift of Miracles , in Ordination ; and all this when no eye seeth the Miracles , when it is confessed that Angels cannot naturally see it , yea when all mens senses perceive the contrary ; and all this because , that Christ said This is my Body , while abundance such sayings in Scripture , yea the words about the Cup it self , are confessed to be tropical , and when the Scripture expresly telleth us that there is Bread. Judge whether it be possible for Satan to have put a greater scorn upon the Christian faith , or a greater scandal before the enemies of it , or a greater hinderance to the Worlds Conversion , than to tell them , you must renounce not only your Humanity but all common sense , if you will be Christians , and be saved , or suffered to enjoy your estates and lives . VII . Lastly , It is ordinary with their subtilest Schoolmen to confess that this their doctrine of Transubstantiation cannot be proved from Scripture , and that they believe it only because their Church saith it , which must be believed , and because that by the same spirit which wrote the Scripture , the Church is taught thus to expound it . So that all their faith of this is by them resolved into a phanatick pretence of Inspiration ; As I have elsewhere shewed out of Durandus , Paludanus , Scotus , Ockam , Quodl . 6. li. 5. q. 31. Rada vol. 4. Cont. 7. a. 1. pag. 164 , 165. And no General Council ever determined it till that at Rome under Innoc. 3. Where saith Matth. Paris , many decrees were proposed or brought in by the Pope which some liked and some disliked . And this was 1215 years after Christs birth . And Stephanus Aeduensis is the first in whom the name of Transubstantiation is found , about the year 1100. CHAP. VIII . Arg. 6. From the Nature of a Sacrament . Arg. 6. THat Doctrine which by consequence denyeth the Lords Supper to be a true Sacrament , is false . The Papists doctrine of Transubstantiation by consequence denyeth the Lords Supper to be a true Sacrament : Therefore the Papists doctrine of Transubstantiation is false . The Major I know no man that will deny that we have now to deal with . The Minor needeth no other proof , than the common definition of a Sacrament , and Christs own description of this Sacrament in the Scripture . I. Aquinas concludeth 3. q. 60. a. 1. that a Sacrament is a sign ; and a. 2. that it is a sign of a thing sacred as it sanctifieth men ; and a. 3. that it is a Rememorative sign of Christs passion , a demonstrative sign of Gods Grace , and a prognosticating sign of future Glory : And a. 4. that it must be Res sensibilis a sensible thing , it being natural to man to come to the knowledge of things intelligible by things sensible , and the Sacrament signifieth to man spiritual and intelligible Goods : and a. 5. that they must be things of Divine determination , &c. But , 1. If the Bread and Wine be gone , there is nothing left to be a sign , a Real sensible sign , to lead us to the knowledge of spiritual and intelligible things . If they say that the species of Bread and Wine is the sensible sign , what mean they by that cheating word [ species ? ] Not the specifying form or matter , but only the outward appearance . And is it a true or a false appearance ? If True , then there is Bread and Wine : If false , it is a false sign : And what is that false appearance which God maketh a Sacrament of ? It is plainly nothing but the Accidents of Bread and Wine without the substance . But , 1. When they take the Cup from the Laity , and deny them half the Sacrament , sure there are then no Accidents of Wine . Is there either Quantity , Colour , Smell , Taste , &c. of Wine ? They will not say it . So that here is no sensible sign as to one half . 2. And herein they deal far more inhumanely with us than the Infidels themselves : For when they plead against Christ and Scripture , they grant that the common principles and Notitiae , which all mankind acknowledge , are the certain unquestionable light of Nature . But the Papists deny not only the Notitias communes , but common sense . It is nothing with them to damn all the world , that will not believe contradictions . They say that the Quantity of Nothing endued with the Qualities , the Actions , the Passion , the Relations , the quando , ubi , situs of nothing , is the Sacramental sign . Inhumane contradiction ! 1. Gassendus and others say truly , that an Accident is not properly Res , but Modus Rei , ( vel Qualitas , as he calleth it . ) 2. Quantity doth not Really differ a re quanta : and to say , [ The Length , Breadth , Profundity of Nothing ] is a notorious contradiction . And so it is of the other Accidents . There is no Real sensible sign , and therefore no Sacrament , where there is nothing , but the quantity , colour , taste , smell , &c. of Nothing . 3. And they cannot , they dare not say , that Christs Real Flesh and Blood , is the Sacramental sign : For , 1. It is not sensible ; 2. It should be then the sign of it self : The sign and the thing signified cannot be the same . II. The very substantiality or corporeity of the Bread and Wine as such , is part of the sign : As Christ saith , Behold and handle me , a spirit hath not flesh and blood , as ye see me have : So he taketh Corporeal bread and wine in their sight , and breaketh it , and poureth it out , and giveth it them to see , to feel , to taste , to eat , that they may know it is true bread and wine , the signs of his True Body and Blood. So that to deny the Corporeity is to deny Christs Corporeity in its signs ; and tendeth to the old Heresie of them that held that Christ had but a phantastical body , or was not indeed Crucified , but seemed so to be : They teach Hereticks to argue , The sign was no Real substance : Therefore neither the thing signified . III. The nutritive use of the bread and wine was another part of the sign , as all confess : As bread and wine are the Nutriment of the body and life of man , so is Christ crucified meritoriously , and Christ glorified efficiently , the life of the soul . And he that denyeth the Nutritive sign , denyeth the Sacrament : But it is not the false appearance , or phantasm , or accidents of bread and wine , that are the natural nourishers of man : Therefore he that denyeth the nourishing substance , denyeth the Real sensible Sacramental sign . Saith Bellarmin de Euchar. l. 3. c. 23. [ In the Eucharist we receive not corporal food that the flesh may be thence nourished and made fat : but only to signifie inward refection . ] So that he acknowledged this to be part of the Sacramental sign . So Gregor . Valent. saith that [ The chief and essential signification of this Sacrament is that which by external nourishment is signified , the internal spiritual refection of the soul by the body of Christ . ] So that denying the nourishing sign is destroying the essence of the Sacrament . IV. The breaking of the Bread and pouring out the Wine is confessedly another part of the Sacramental sensible sign . But , 1. When there is no Wine , there is no pouring it out : 2. And if there be no Bread neither , there is no breaking it : Can that be broken which is not ? They that deny ( as the Papists do ) that the Bread is broken ( saying that only the Quantity of Nothing is broken ) deny the sensible Sacramental sign . And here I may note , that we do not well to contend with them for denying the Cup only to the Laity , and granting them only the Bread , when indeed they grant neither , but deny them both : There is ( say they ) no more Bread than Wine , but only a false appearance of it . V. Lastly , The Apostle 1 Cor. 10.16 , 17. sheweth that one Sacramental use of the Bread was to signifie the Vnity of Christians , who are one Bread , and one Body , as one Loaf is made of many Corns . But that cannot be One , which is Nothing : Ens , Vnum & Verum convertuntur . To say with Greg. Valent. and Bellarmine , that because it was Once bread , and one bread , therefore the accidents of it remaining now signifie that we are one bread ; is but to say , that There was once a fit sign , but then there wanted the form : Now after Consecration , there is no Sacramental sign , but yet there is a Sacramental form : And in what Matter is that form ? Doubtless it can be no where but in the Brain or Mind of man : That is , man can Remember that once he saw Bread : This is the species of bread in his Intellect : This species is the sign : And so we have found out another sense of the species of bread , than many think on ; viz. It is that which is called The species intentionalis , or the Idea or conception of bread in a mans fantasie and mind : And so indeed the Sacrament is with them an invisible thing : for it is only in mens minds : There is no Sacrament on the Altar , but in the thoughts : And so who hath a Sacrament , and who not , we know not : And a man may by thinking make a Sacrament when he will. CHAP. IX . Of the Novelty of Transubstantiation . R. I Once thought to have next proved out of the Current of Antiquity , the Novelty of this inhumane doctrine of the Papists , and that the Antients commonly confessed , that there was true Bread and Wine remaining in the Sacrament after Consecration : But , 1. I should but tempt and weary ordinary Readers , who neither need any such arguments ( having Sense and Scripture to give them satisfaction ) nor are able to try them : For it is an indirect kind of dealing , to expect that the unlearned , or those that are strangers to the Writings of the Antients , should believe this or that to be their mind and sayings , meerly because I tell them so . And if they read the plainest words , they know not whether I rightly recite them , but by believing me . And it is as unreasonable on the other side , that the Papists should expect , either by their Citations or their general Affirmations , that the Readers should believe them , that the Antients were for Transubstantiation . Till men can both read the Authors themselves , and try the Copies , they can have no sure historical notice what the Father 's held , except by the common consent of credible Reporters or Historians : Not while one side saith , they say this , and the other side saith they say the contrary , and yet their Books are to be seen by all . We may bid them believe us , and the Papists may bid them believe them , and a Priest may cheat them by saying , that his word is the Churches : But though this will produce a humane belief in the Hearers or Readers , as by advantages it is most taking with them , yet that fallible belief is all the Certainty that it can afford them . Therefore I think it most ingenuous and reasonable to give men such arguments as they are capable of understanding and improving to certain satisfaction . 2. Because they that can study such Authors as have gathered the sentences of the Antients in this Controversie , may find it so fully done by Edmund . Albertinus in his second Book , that they can need no more . P. You know that Albertinus is answered . R. And I know that he is again Defended : And who doubteth but you can answer me copiously , if I did maintain that the Sun giveth light : What is it that a man cannot talk for ? especially they that can hope to perswade all the Christian world , that they must be damned , unless they will believe that all mens senses are deceived , and that God is the great Deceiver of the world . P. But how can you think to please God and be saved , if you be not of the same faith as the Church hath alwayes been of ? All the antient Fathers and Catholick Church were for Transubstantiation ; and are you wiser and in a safer way than they ? R. You have lost your credit with me so far , as that your word is no oracle to me : If I must not believe my own nor other mens senses , I am not bound to believe you : at least when I know you speak falsly . But I pray tell me , How know you that the Church and Fathers did so believe ? P. Because the present Church saith so ; which cannot err . R. Do not your own Writers say , that a General Council and Pope may err in matter of fact ? and that they did so in Condemning Pope Honorius and in other Cases ? P. Yes : but this is a matter of faith . R. Is it not a matter of fact , what this or that man said , and what doctrine the Church at such a time did teach and hold ? But how know you that the present Church doth say so , that this was the faith of the antient Church ? P. By their testimony in a General Council . R. Did you hear the Council say so ? P. No : but the Church telleth me that the Council said so . R. Who is it that you now call the Church which tells you so ? P. My Superiours , who have it from the Pope , and their Fathers . R. Are your Superiours that told you so , the Church ? Or is the Pope the Church ? If so , What need you say a Council is the Church ? And how know you that the Pope and your Superiours err not in a matter of fact ? P. I know it by the Decrees of the Council yet extant . R. 1. But if sense be deceitful , how know you that you ever read such Decrees ? 2. How know you that they are not forgeries , or since corrupted ? P. The Church is a safe keeper of its , own Records . R. Still what mean you by the Church ? The Vulgar neither keep nor understand your Councils . The Council of Trent is long ceased : No other General Council hath been since , to tell you what are the true Decrees of that Council . The Pope is not the Church : And he may err in a matter of fact : What then is the Church that tells you certainly what the Council of Trent decreed ? Tell me if you can . P. We have such common historical Evidence and Tradition , as you have for your Acts of Parliament when the Parliament is ended . The present Governours preserve them . R. Very good : It is the Office of the Governours to take that Care , but therein they are not indefectible and infallible ; but they and the published Laws , and the notice of the whole Land , and the Judicial proceedings by them in the Courts of Judicature make up a Certain Historical Evidence . And so it may be in your Case : And when you have talkt your utmost , you can shew no more . And have not we the same Writings of Fathers and Councils as you have ? You dare not deny it . Why then may not we know what is in them as well as you ? And I pray you tell me , Whether your Antiquaries , such as Albaspinaeus , Sixtus Senensis , Petavius , Sirmondus , &c. do prove what Cyprian , Optatus , Augustine , &c. held , by the judgement of the Pope or Councils , or by citing the words of the Authors themselves ? And do Crab , Binnius , Surius , Caranza , &c. prove what one Council said by the authority of another , or by the Records themselves , yet visible to all ? P. Those Records themselves , even the visible Writings of the Fathers and Councils are for Transubstantiation . R. Till you have perswaded me out of my senses , I will not believe you . I pray you tell me if you can of any Author or Council that ever used the name [ Transubstantiation ] before Stephanus Aeduensis after the year 1100 , de Sacram. Altar . c. 13. P. Though the name be new , the Doctrine is not . R. Tell me next , what General Council did ever determine it , before the Council of Laterane under Innoc . 3. an . 1215. P. Not expresly : for General Councils need not mention it , till the Albigenses Hereticks gave them occasion by denying it . R. Was it an Article of faith before ? If it were , either the Councils are not the measure of your faith , or it is very mutable . P. Among all your questionings answer me this question if you can . If that General Council decreed Transubstantiation , what could move them so to do , if it were not the faith of the Church before ? Were they not all of the same mind the day before they did it ? and so the day before that , and the day before that , &c. Or do you think that they were against Transubstantiation the night before , and awaked all of another mind the next morning ? What could make all the Pastors of the Church think that this was the true faith , if they did not think it was the antient faith ? And what could make them think it the antient faith , if it were not so ? Did not they know what their Fathers held ? And did not their Fathers know what their Fathers held ? The same I say of the Council of Trent also . R. Thus men that must not believe the common sense of mankind , can believe the dreaming conjectures of their brains , and sit in a corner , and thence tell the world what can and what cannot be done by publick assemblies , at many hundred years and miles distance . Who would not laugh at a Fryer , that in his Cell would tell by moral conjectures , all the thoughts and motions of an Army or Navy , that never saw them , and contrary to the experience of those that were on the ground and interessed in their Councils and actions . Observe how many false suppositions go to make up your cheats . 1. You suppose this a true General Council , which is a pack of factious Prelates subject to the Pope , and assembled at Rome in his own Palace , under the awe of his presence and power . And as if the small number after at Trent had spake the minds of all the Churches . 2. You suppose all the members of a Council to be of one mind : when as they determine by the Major Vote . And oft times the difference is not above two or three , and its possible one Voice may turn the scales : And perhaps one , or two , or ten may be absent one day , and present another , and so the Cry of [ the Judgement of all the Bishops in the world ] may signifie no more , but that two or three of the other side staid a little too long at dinner that day , while the other party carryed it by their absence . And I pray you where hath God promised , that the faith of an hundred and one shall not fail , when the faith of ninety nine of the same company may fail ( supposing the Council to be two hundred ) : Or why are the one hundred and one the Bishops of all the world , and not the ninety nine ? 3. Do you think we never read the History of the Council of Trent ? and before them , of the Councils of Ariminum , Ephes . 2 , yea , Calcedon , & c. ? And yet must we suppose , that men come thither all of one mind ? when they have such shameful Contentions ? Such cunning contrivances to get the majority of Votes ? Such awe and terror from the power of the Chief ? and such carnal dependances and respects to their several worldly interests ? Yea , sometimes fighting it out unto blood ( as Dioscorus and Flavianus case doth shamefully evince ? ) 4. And must we suppose mens minds to be changed in their sleep , when the awe or the oratory of other men change them ? Do we not know the Course of the Parliaments of England of later times ? How much a few men of more than ordinary parts and interest , can do with the rest ? And how oft the major Vote hath gone against the sense of the far greater number of the House ? 5. And do we not know , that ordinarily he that is sent to the Council from a Province , is chosen as it pleaseth the Pope , the King , or the Archbishop , or some in greatest power ; and rarely according to the free-will and sense of the greater part of the Clergy . If five hundred to one of the Clergy of a Kingdom be of one mind , and the Prince , or chief men , or powerfullest Prelates be of another , they will send a Bishop thither of their own mind . 6. Do you think we know not that all the Papists are not past the third or fourth part of the Christian world ? Why then should their sense be called the sense of all the Christian world ? 7. Do you think we know not how little reason you have to say , that the Council at Laterane spake the sense of all the Church ? When the Decrees were but proposed by Pope Innocent , and recited there without any due Synodical deliberation , and some liked them , and some disliked them ? as you may find in Math. Paris in K. John , Nauclerus Gener. 41. ad an . 1215. Godefridus ad an . 1215. Platina in Vita Innoc. 3. And this one of your late false Scriblers in a Book for Toleration also saith ; Though the Disputers against Dr. Gunning and Dr. Pierson copiously and confidently justifie that Council : and indeed with you it passeth for an Approved one . 8. And were not your arguing as strong for the Council of Ephes . 2. and that at Arim. and Sirmium , and divers at Constantinople disallowed , and those at Constance and Basil , ( where were many times the number of the Council at Trent ) ? Did these Councils all go to bed of one mind , and rise of another ? Or did they not know what their Fathers faith was ? Why then do you reprobate them , and deny that which they decreed as of faith ? Is it not a shame , to talk of [ the Bishops of all the world ] and [ Tradition from their Fathers ] when your meaning is but that All these may err , and do oft err , unless one man , the Pope approve them ? But where sense is renounced , we must not expect modesty . P. But the antient Councils and Fathers are against you , as is to be seen . R. It is utterly false : I will not abuse the Reader so as to carry him into a Wood , and lose him among a multitude of old Books , when he hath more satisfactory evidence enough at hand . But , I. As to all your Citations from true antiquity ( for your forged Authors and corrupted Testimonies we regard not ) they are answered by this one true observation , that when old Writers sometimes say , that after consecration it is [ No more bread and wine , but the body and blood of Christ ] , their whole Context plainly sheweth , that they mean that it is no more MEER or Common Bread and Wine ; and usually they so speak . Because forma denominat , and it is the ultimate form that denominateth , all antecedent forms being but the dispositio materiae . As if the question be , Whether a Shilling be Silver or Money ? Before the Coining , it was but Silver ; but after , it is no more Common Silver , but Money : Silver is but the matter , and not the denominating form . Is your Garment to be called Cloth , or a Cloak ? Before the making it was but Cloth , but now it is not meer Cloth , but a Cloak . The same I may say of the Kings Crown and Scepter , or of any Relative , Representative or Personating form that is added to any matter or man. This is the plain meaning of the Antients . II. And as to what they say against you , I will now only give you a few brief instances . 1. Justin Martyr . in Dial. cum Tryph. saith , [ The offering of Flower delivered to be offered for them that were cleansed of the Leprosie , was a Type of the BREAD of the Eucharist which our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to make in remembrance of his passion , &c. ] And more plainly Apolog. 2. ( indeed the first ) [ When the President hath given thanks , and all the people acclaimed , those that with us are called Deacons , distribute to every one present BREAD and WINE and Water , and bring them to those that are absent . ] 2. Irenaeus saith lib. 4. c. 34. [ For as the Bread which is of the Earth receiving the divine invocation , is not now Common Bread , but the Eucharist , consisting of two things , the Terrene and the Celestial , &c. ] See more out of him in Albertinus , at large . 3. Tertullian cont . Marcion l. 3. c. 19. [ Calling Bread his Body , that hence you may understand that he gave to Bread the Figure of his body . ] And before l. 1. [ He reprobated not — Bread , by which he Representeth his very Body . ] And lib. 4. cap. 40. [ The Bread which he took and distributed to his Disciples he made his body , saying , This is my Body ; that is , The figure of my body . — And what he would have Bread then signifie , he sufficiently declared , calling Bread his Body . ] And it is a notable passage of Tertullians against the Academicks that questioned sense , lib. de anim . c. 17. [ What dost thou , O procacious Academick ? Thou overthrowest the whole state of life : Thou disturbest the whole order of nature ; Thou blindest the providence of God himself ; as if he had made mens lying and deceitful senses to be the Lords , in understanding , honouring , dispensing and enjoying all his works ▪ Is not the whole Condition ( of man ) subadministred by these . ] And after [ We may not call those senses into question , lest Christ himself must deliberate of their certainty ( or must distrust them ) . Lest it may be said , that he falsly saw Satan cast down from Heaven , or falsly heard the voyce of his Father testifying of him ; or was deceived when he touched Peters Wives Mother — or perceived not a true taste of the Wine which he Consecrated in the memorial of his blood . ] Many such places are in Tertullian . 4. Origen is large and plain to the same purpose in Matth. 25. calling it [ Bread and a Typical and Symbolical Body , which profiteth none but the worthy receivers , and that according to the proportion of their faith , and which no wicked man doth eat , &c. ] Many more such places Albertinus vindicateth . 5. Cyprians Epistle to Magnus is too large this way to be recited . As [ Even the Sacrifices of the Lord declare the Christian Vnanimity , connexed by firm and inseparable love : For when the Lord calleth Bread his body ( or his body bread ) made up of many united grains , &c. And when he calleth the Wine his Blood , &c. ] So Epist . ad Caecil . 6. Eusebius Caesar . demonstr . Evang. l. 1. c. 10. [ Celebrating daily the memorial of the body and blood of Christ ] — [ Seeing then we receive the memorial of this Sacrifice to be perfected on the Table , by the symbols of his body and most precious blood — ] And l. 8. [ He delivered to us to use , Bread as the symbol of his own body . ] 7. Athanasius's words are recited by Albertinus l. 2. p. 400 , 401 , &c. 8. Basil . de Spir. Sanct. saith , [ Which of the Saints hath left us in Writing the words of invocation , when the Bread of the Eucharist , and the Cup of blessing are shewed ? ] 9. Ephrem ( in Biblioth . Photii p. 415. Edit . August . ) saith , [ The body of Christ , which believers receive , loseth not his sensible substance , and is not separated from the intelligible grace . ] And ad eos qui filii Dei , &c. [ Take notice diligently how taking Bread in his hands , he blessed it , and brake it , for a figure of his immaculate body , and he blessed the Cup and gave it to his Disciples as a figure of his pretious blood . ] 10. Cyrillus ( vel . Johan . ) Hierosol . Catech. Mystag . calls the bread indeed Christs body , but fully expounds himself de Chrysmate , Cat. 3. pag. 235. [ For as the Bread of the Eucharist , after the invocation of the Holy Ghost , is no more Common Bread , but is the Body of Christ : So also this Holy Oyntment is no more meer Oyntment , nor ( if any one had rather so speak ) common , now it is consecrated ; but it is a Gift ( or Grace ) which causeth the presence of Christ and the Holy Ghost ; that is , of his Divinity . ] As the Oyntment is Grace , or the Holy Ghost , just so the Bread is the body of Christ , as he saith after Cat. 4. It is not only what we see ( Bread and Wine ) but more . 11. Hierom cont . Jovinian . l. 2. The Lord as a type ( or figure ) of his blood , offered not water but wine . 12. Ambrose de Sacram. l. 4. c. 4. [ This therefore we assert , How that which is Bread , can yet be the body of Christ . ] — And [ If Christs speech had so much force , that it made that begin to be which was not , how much more is it operative , that the things that were , both Be , and be changed into something else . ] And [ As thou hast drunk the similitude of death , so thou drinkest the similitude of pretious blood . ] 13. Theodoret in Dialog . Immutab . dealeth with an Eutychian Heretick , who defended his Error by pleading that the bread in the Eucharist was changed into the body of Christ : To whom saith Theodoret , [ The Lord who hath called that meat and bread which is naturally his Body , and who again called himself a Vine , did honour the visible signs with the appellation of his body and blood ; not having changed their Nature , but added Grace to Nature . ] And in Dialog . 2. In confus . he saith , [ The divine Mysteries are signs of the true body . ] And again , answering the Eutychians pretence of a change he saith , [ By the net which thou hast made , art thou taken . ☞ For even after the Consecration , the Mystical signs change not their nature : For they remain in all their first SVBSTANCE , figure and form , and are Visible , and to be Handled as before . But they are understood to be the things which they were made , and are believed and venerated as made that which they are believed to be . ] Would you have plainer words ? 14. Gelasius cont . Nest . & Eutych . saith , [ Verily the Sacraments of the body and blood of Christ which we take , is a Divine thing , for which and by which we are made partakers of the divine nature . ☞ And yet it ceaseth not to be the Substance and Nature of Bread and Wine . And certainly the Image and similitude of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the action of the Mysteries . ] What can be plainer ? 15. Cyril . Alexandr . in John 4. cap. 14. saith , [ He gave to his believing disciples fragments of Bread , saying , Take , Eat , This is my body . ] 16. Facundus lib. 9. cap. 5. pag. 404. ( as cited by P. Molin . de Novitate Papismi ) [ We call that the body and blood of Christ which is the Sacrament of his body , in the consecrated Bread and Cup. ☞ Not that the Bread is properly his body , and the Cup his blood ; but because they contain the Mysterie of his body and blood . ] But I am so weary of these needless Transcriptions , that I will trouble my self and the Reader with no more . Albertinus will give him enow more who desireth them : And no doubt but with a wet finger they can blot out all these , and teach us to deny the sense of words , as well as our senses . D. But you said also , that the Present Church and its Tradition is against Transubstantiation , as well as the Antient : How prove you that ? R. Just as I prove that the Protestants are against it . By the present Church , I mean the far greater part of all the Christians in the world . The Greeks with the Muscovites , the Armenians , the Syrians , the Copties , the Abassines , and the Protestants , and all the rest who make up about twice or thrice as many as the Papists . That they hold that there is true Bread and Wine after Consecration , all impartial Historians testifie , both Papists and Protestants , and their own several Countreymen ; and also Travellers who have been among them . And their Liturgies , even those that are in the Bibliotheca Patrum put out by themselves , do testifie for those Countreys where they are used ( Though as Bishop Vsher hath detected ) by one words addition they have shamelesly endeavoured to corrupt the Ethiopick Liturgy about the Real presence . ) But I need no more proof of that which no faithful History doth deny . And then I need not prove , that Transubstantiation is against the most General or Common Tradition , For all these Christians , the Greeks , Armenians , Abassines , &c. profess to follow the Religion which they have received from their Ancestors , as well as the Papists do : And if the Papists be to be believed in saying that this is the Religion which they received from their forefathers , Why are not the other to be believed in the same case ? And if the Popish Tradition seem regardable to them , Why should not the Tradition of twice or thrice as many Christians be more regardable ? And if in Councils , the Major Vote must carry it ; Why not in the Judgement and Tradition of the Real body of Christs Church ? As for their trick of excepting against them as Schismaticks and Hereticks , to invalidate their Votes and Judgement , we despise it , as knowing that so any Usurper that would make himself the sole Judge , may say by all the rest of the world : But as they judge of others , they are justly judged by others themselves . CHAP. X. The second part of the Controversie , Whether it be Christs very Flesh and Blood into which the Bread and Wine are Transubstantiated . R. OUr first Question was , Whether there be any Bread and Wine left after Consecration ; Our second is , Whether Christs Real Flesh and Blood be there , as that into which the Bread and Wine are changed ? And herein 1. I do freely grant , that the change of Christs Body by Glorification is so great , as that it may be called , though not a Spirit , yet a spiritual body , as Paul , 1 Cor. 15. saith Ours when Glorified shall be ; that is , A body very like in purity , simplicity , and activity to a Spirit : And the general difference between a spirit and body was not held by many of the Greek Fathers as it is by us : And if the second Council of Nice was Infallible , no Angel or other Creature is Incorporeal : Or as Damasus saith , [ They are Corporeal in respect to God , but Incorporeal in respect to gross bodies . ] The perfect knowledge of the difference between Corpus and Spiritus , except by the formal Virtues , is unknown to mortal men . 2. I grant therefore , that our senses are no Competent Judges , Whether Christs true body be in the Sacrament ? no more than Whether an Angel be in this room ? There are bodies which are Invisible . 3. I grant that it is unknown to us , how far Christs Glorified body may extend ? Whether the same may be both in Heaven and on earth ? I am not able nor willing to confute them that say , Light is a Body ; nor them that say , It is a spirit : nor them that say , It is quid medium as a nexus of both : I mean Aether or Ignis , visible in its Light. And it is an incomprehensible wonder , if Lumen be a real radiant or Emanant part of the Sun , that it should indivisibly fill all the space thence to this earth , and how much further little do we know . So for the extensions of Christs body , let those that understand it dispute for me . 4. And I will grant that it is very probable that as in Heaven we shall have both a Soul and Body , so the Body is not like to have so near an Intuition and fruition of God as the soul . And whether the Glorified Body of Christ will not be there a medium of Gods Communication of Glory to our bodies , yea and his glorified soul to our souls , as the Sun is now to our eyes , I do not well understand : only I know that it is his prayer and will , that we be with him where he is to behold his Glory ; and that God and the Lamb will be the Light of the Heavenly Jerusalem . 5. And I am fully satisfied that it is not the signs only ; but the Real Body and Blood of Christ , which are given us in the Sacraments ( both Baptism and the Eucharist ) : But how given us ? Relatively , de jure ; as a man is Given to a Woman in Marriage ; or as a house and land are delivered to me , to be mine for my use ; though I touch them not . Thus 1. A right to Christ is given us : 2. And the fruits or benefits of his Crucified body and shed blood , are actually given us , that is , Pardon and the Spirit , merited for us thereby . 6. And among the Benefits given us , besides the Relative , there are some such as we call Real or Physical terminatively , and hyperphysical originally ut à Causa , which are the spirit of Holiness , or the Quickening , Illuminating and Sanctifying influence of the spirit of Christ upon our souls . And the Sacrament is appointed as a special means of communicating this . 7. I have met with some of late who say , that Indeed Christs Body and Blood in his humbled state , were not really eaten and drunk by the disciples , at his last supper : For the flesh profiteth not to such a use : But that his Glorified Body is spiritual , and is extensively communicated , and invisibly present under the form of Bread in the Sacrament ; and that as we have a Body , a sensitive life , and an Intellectual soul , so Christ is the life of all these respectively ; viz. His Body is made the spiritual nourishment of our Bodies ; his sensitive soul ( for which the word Blood is put , because it is in the blood in animals ) is the food or life of our sensitive souls ; and his Intellectual soul , of ours : And to these uses they assert the Real presence and oral participation of Christs Glorified body . To all which I say , 1. Whether or how far an invisible spiritual Body is present , sense is no judge ; nor can we know any further than Gods word telleth us . 2. That Christ in his Glorified soul and Body is our Intercessour with God , through whom we have all things , we must not doubt . 3. That Christ in his Humane and Divine Nature now in Heaven , is that Teacher who hath left us a certain word , and that King who hath left us a perfect Law of Life , whom we must obey , and a promise which we must trust , we must not question . 4. That the Holy Ghost who is our spiritual Life , is given us by , from and for Christ our Mediator , we must take for certain truth . But , though in all these respects , Faith apprehendeth and liveth upon Christ , yet that moreover his Glorified Body in substance , either feedeth or by contact purifieth our Bodies , and his sensitive soul , our sensitive souls , and his Intellectual soul , our Intellectual souls , as if in themselves , and not in their effects only they were thus communicated to us , I understand not , either by any just conception of the thing it self , or any proof of it from the word of God. But if any can help me to see it , I shall not refuse instruction . Nor can I see why the soul of Christ should be said to be given in the Wine only , and not in the Bread ; Nor why by this kind of Communication he may not as truly be said to be given us in other Ordinances as in the Eucharist : Nor know I what they mean by the Forms of bread and wine , under which they say that Christs Body and blood is given : But I am past doubt that Bread and Wine are still really in substance there . And whereas the same men say that It is Christs humbled flesh and blood as sacrificed on the Cross that is Commemorated , but his Glorified Body and soul only which are Communicated and Received , I must say , 1. That Christ plainly tells us of his Giving us his Sacrificed Body or flesh it self to eat , as he is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World : And he saith , Take , Eat , this is my Body which is broken for you , &c. so that the same body is Commemorated and Communicated : But how Communicated ? In the effects of his sacrifice : His Body was given a sacrifice to God for us , and the fruits of that sacrifice given to us . And thus he was given a sacrifice for the life of the world ; And thus we do receive him : By our bodily taking and eating the Bread , we profess that our souls take him to be our Saviour and Cause of our Life , both as Purchasing and Meriting it on Earth , and Interceding and Communicating it in and from Heaven . 2. And this Doctrine will not serve the Papists turn , who tell us that Bread and Wine are ceased , and that Christs very flesh and blood is there , into which all the substance of the bread and wine are turned ; and that his natural Body before his death , was in the same sort given under the forms of Bread and Wine as now ; and will not be beholden to this subterfuge . And indeed it is strange if the Sacrament at the first Institution should be One thing , and ever after another thing ; and that the Bread should ever since be turned into Christs body , upon the Priests Consecration , and not be turned into it , ( because not yet glorified ) upon his own words [ This is my Body . ] Therefore we must let this go , and speak of what they own and hold indeed . And as for any other Bodily presence , influence or communication of Christs Body or Soul , besides that which they call Transubstantiation , we have nothing to do with it in this Controversie . That the substance of the Bread and Wine is not turned into the substance of the flesh and blood of Christ , is proved . I. Because the Glorified Body of Christ is not formally and properly Flesh and Blood : Though it be the s●me Body which was Flesh and Blood. The Apostle Paul saith , 1 Cor. 15.50 , 51. [ Now this I say , brethren , that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , nor doth corruption inherit incorruption ; Behold , I shew you a mysterie : We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed . ] It is not only Dr. Hammond , but other of the best expositors who shew that by Flesh and blood and corruption here is not meant sin , but flesh and blood formally considered ; which is ever corruptible : And the Papists commonly confess this . If therefore it be flesh and blood which the bread and wine are turned into , then either Christ hath two bodies , or two parts of one , which are utterly heterogeneal , one flesh and blood , and the other not ; one corruptible and the other incorruptible . II. And this feigneth Christ to be often Incarnate , even thousands and millions of times ; And to lay down that Incarnate body again as oft as it corrupteth , and to take up a new one as oft as the Priest please ; and yet all but one . Whereas the Church and Scripture have ever told us but of one Incarnation of Jesus Christ . III. And it is expresly contrary to his promise Joh. 6.51 . I am the living bread which came down from heaven : If any man eat of this bread , he shall live for ever : And the bread which I give is my flesh which I will give for the life of the world — v. 34. Who so eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life — He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood , dwelleth in me and I in him . As the living Father hath sent me , and I live by the Father , so he that Eateth me , even he shall live by me — He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever — . ] These are the express promises of Christ . But the Papists say that wicked men and unbelievers eat the flesh of Christ , who shall not live for ever , nor have eternal life , nor dwell in Christ , but are more miserable by their hypocrisie . I pass by abundance of other arguments , because commonly used , and these are as many as my ends require ; and I would make the Reader no more work than needs . CHAP. XI . The Conclusion of the first Book : The Causes of Popery . R. I Have now made plain to you , 1. What the Protestants Religion is , ( or at least my own , and all that I perswade you or any other to embrace . ) 2. And also that it is granted to be all true by the generality of the Papists ( as is explained and proved . ) 3. And I have told you , by an enumeration of some particulars , why I am not a Papist , and why I do disswade you from it . 4. And I have made good my first charge , in the point of Transubstantiation , if any thing in the world can be proved . The second I shall leave till another time , viz. To shew you how far their Religion ( as Popish ) is from Infallible Certainty ; and what horrid confusion is among them ; and how they have done much to promote Infidelity in the world , by building Religion upon some notorious untruths , and upon a multitude of utter uncertainties . Though I doubt not but among them there are many true Christians , who practically resolve their faith into the surer evidences of Divine Revelation , yet I shall clearly prove to you , that all those whose practical faith is no surer or better , than the notional opinions of their Divines will allow , have no certain faith or Religion at all : And what impudency is it to make men believe , that there is no certainty of Religion to be had , but in their way , who build their Religion upon such a multitude of uncertainties and certain falshoods , as will amaze you when I come to open them to you , viz. that ever so many Learned men , and persons of all ranks , can be induced so to jest in the matters of their salvation . And if I be not by death or other greater work prevented , I hope in order to make good all the rest of the Charges before mentioned , which are our Reasons against the Popish way of Religion . In the mean time tell me what you think of that which is already said . D. I know not how to confute what you have said : And yet when I hear them on the other side , me thinks their tale seems fair , and I cannot answer them neither : so that between you both , we that are unlearned are in a sad case , who must thus be tost up and down by the disputations of disagreeing Priests , so that we know not what a man may say is certain . R. To this I have several things to say ; 1. Ordination doth not make men wise , holy , humble and self-denying ; but sets such men apart for the sacred office , who seek it , and have tolerable gifts of utterance : And it is too ordinary for worldly minded men , to make a worldly trade of the Priesthood , meerly for ease , and wealth , and honour . In which case , do you not think that the Papists who have multitudes of rich benefices , prelacies , preferments , and Church-power , and worldly honour , are liker to be drawn by worldly interest , than such as I that am exceeding glad and thankful , if I might but preach for nothing ? 2. Do you lay your faith and salvation upon plausible discourses ? and will you be of that mans faith , whom you cannot confute ? Then you must be of every mans faith : or indeed of no mans . There are none of all these sects , so hardly confuted , as a Porphyry , a Julian or such like Infidels who dispute against Christ , and the truth of the Scriptures ? or such Sadducees as dispute against the Immortality of the soul . Alas , the tattle of Papists , Pelagians , Antinomians , Separatists , Quakers , and all such , supposing the truth of the souls Immortality and the Scriptures , is easily resisted and confuted , in comparison of their assaults who deny these our foundations . And will you turn Sadducee ▪ Atheist or Infidel because you cannot confute their Sophistry ? I tell you , if you knew how much harder it is , to deal with one of these than with a Papist or any other Sectary , you would shake the head , to hear one man dispute for an universal Monarch , and another dispute against a form of prayer , and another whether it be lawful to Communicate with dissenters , &c. while so few of them all can defend their foundations , even the souls Immortality and the Scriptures , nor confute a subtle Infidel or Sadducee . 3. What if we all agreed to say that there is no Bread in the Sacrament after Consecration ? Were it ever the truer for that ? Will you be deceived as oft as men can but agree to deceive you ? There is a far greater party Agreed against Jesus Christ ( even five parts of the World ) than that which is agreed for him : Will you therefore be against Christ too ? There are more Agreed for Mahomet ( a gross upstart deceiver ) than are agreed for Christ : And doth that make it certain that they are in the right ? 4. Will you deny all your senses , and the senses of all the World , as oft as you cannot answer him that denyeth them ? Upon these terms , what end will there be of any Controversie , or what evidence shall ever satisfie man ? Have Papists any surer and more satisfying evidence for you , than sense ? I pray you tell me ; Did you ever meet with any of them that doubt of another life , or of the Immortality of the soul ? D. Yes , many a one : I would we were all more certain than we are . R. And what is it that such men would have to put them out of doubt ? D. They say that our talk of Prophets and supernatural revelation are all uncertainties ; and if they could see , they would believe . Could they see such Miracles as they read of : Had they seen Lazarus raised , or Christ risen from the dead , &c. Had they seen Angels or Devils or Spirits appearing : Had they seen Heaven or Hell , they would believe . R. And are not you more obstinate than they , if you will not believe that there is any Bread and Wine , when you see , feel , smell , and taste it , and all men that have senses are of the same mind ? What is left to satisfie you , if you give so little credit to the common sense of all the world ? D. But I oft think that the faith of all the Church is much surer than my sense , or my private faith : At least it is safest to venture in the common road , and to speed as the Church speedeth , which Christ died for , and is his Spouse . R. 1. But do you think that the opinion of the Papal faction who are not the third part of the Universal Church , that is , the Christian world , is the faith of all the Church ? Why call you Opinion faith ? and a sect and faction , All the Church ? 2. Indeed if all the Church did set their senses against mine , I would rather believe them than my senses : For I should think , that I were in that point distracted , or my senses by some disease perverted , which I did not perceive : I mean if it were in a case where they had the affirmative : As if all England should witness that they saw it Light at Midnight , I would think my eyes had some impediment which I knew not of , if I saw none . But this is not your case ; The Papists themselves do not set all their senses against yours : much less the senses of all mankind : They do not say , that [ We and all men , except the Protestants , do see , and feel , and taste that There is no Bread and Wine . ] But contrarily , You have the senses of all the world , and the saith of two or three parts of the Christian world , against the Opinion of one Sect , which Schismatically call themselves All the Church . D. But suppose that they err in this one point , they may for all that be in the right in all the rest : Who is it that hath no error ? I must not for this one forsake them . R. 1. I will stand to their own judgements in this , Whether all their foundation and faith be not uncertain , if any one Article of their faith prove false ? They are all ( that ever I knew ) agreed of the affirmative : And will give you no thanks for such a defence . 2. And if we come to that work , I shall prove all the rest of their opinions before mentioned to be also false . D. What then if I find but one point false in the Protestants Religion ? Must I therefore forsake it all as false ? R. 1. Still remember to distinguish between our Objective and our Subjective faith : or if you understand not those words , between Gods Revelation and Mans Belief of it : or the Divine Rule and Matter of our faith , and our faith it self . And about our own Belief you must distinguish between a mans Profession of Belief , and the Reality of his belief . All true Protestants profess to take Gods word alone , or his Revelation in Nature and Scripture , for the whole Matter of their Divine Belief and Religion ▪ But who it is that sincerely believeth little do I know : nor how much of this word any singular person understandeth , and believeth , I can give you no account of . If personal faith were that which we dispute of , I would be accountable for no mans but mine own . In this sense , There are as many Faiths and Religions as men : For every man hath his Own Faith and Religion : And if you know that a man erreth in one point , it followeth not that he erreth in another . They that believed that the Resurrection was past , believed a falshood : and yet truly believed that Christ was the Messiah : They erred that thought it lawful to eat things offered to Idols ; and yet they erred not in believing in Christ . No two men in the world , its like , have the same degree of personal faith and knowledge ; as I oft said before . But if our professed object of faith , that is , Gods word , were false in one thing , we could not be sure that it were true in any thing . Yet here I told you before , 1. That a man may be much surer that one part of Scripture is Gods word , than another ; because some Copies are doubtful in the diverse Readings of some particular words or sentences ; and which of them that so differ is Gods word , we oft know not : But so much as we are sure is the word of God , we are sure is true : So if the Authority of some few books was once doubted of , ( as 2 Pet. Jam. Jud. Heb. &c. ) and yet be by any , it followeth not that they doubt of the truth of any , which they know to be the word of God. 2. Or if any do hold that the Penmen might be left to their natural fallibility in some by historical circumstances or words , it would not follow , that one Article of the Gospel or Christian faith is doubtful , which is plainly as the Kernel of it , delivered in all the Scripture , and also by infallible Universal Tradition , by it self , in the Sacrament , Creed , Lords Prayer and Decalogue . And our case also much differeth from the Papists in this : For We profess that our objective faith , ( Gods word ) is Infallible , and we are Infallible so far as we believe it : But we confess that we are lyable to misunderstand some parts of it ; and so far are fallible , as being imperfect : But the Papists say , that their Pope and Councils and Universal - Practicers are personally Infallible , so as not to be lyable to any misunderstanding of any Article of faith ( say some ) or Article of Catholick faith ( say others ) : And so they make their own Act of Believing to be Commensurate and equally certain with Gods word of faith ; and therefore they allow you to question them in all , if they err in one , as pretending to a gift of never erring in any . D. But is it not a great reason to incline us to them rather than to you , when They only pretend to Infallibility , and You confess that you are all fallible in your Belief ? R. This is to be the subject of our next Conference , and therefore not now to be anticipated ; only I shall tell you , that It is a meer noise of ambiguous words to deceive the heedless that cannot search out the meaning of them . 1. We not only Pretend , but Profess and prove that our Christian Religion is altogether Infallible . For which end I have written divers Treatises my self . 2. And we profess that all the mystical Church of Christ ( that is all sincere Christians ) do truly and Infallibly believe all that is Essential to Christianity , and as much of the Integrals as they can know . 3. And we profess that the Catholick Church-Visible ( that is , All professors of Christianity in the world ) do profess all these Essentials of Christianity , and are Infallible in this profession . But we hold withall , that there is no particular Church , or Bishop , no Synod or Council , that is so Infallible , but that , 1. They that hold to the Essentials may misunderstand and err about some Integrals : 2. And those persons have no Certainty that they shall not err by Heresie or Apostacy from the Essentials themselves : So that the Church is Infallible , because it is essentiated by believing an Infallible Word ; which who ever believeth not , ceaseth to be of the Church : not Gods Word infallible , because the Church or any number of men believe it , or say Its true : For Truth is before Knowledge and Faith : As Aristotle was a Philosopher , because he understood and taught the doctrine of real Philosophy ; and not that doctrine called Physicks or Philosophy , because that Aristotle knew or taught it . But , alas , What work shall I shew you when I come to open their bewildring uncertainties ? D. But to deal freely with you , methinks their way of measuring out the Necessaries in Faith and Religion according to mens various parts and opportunities , seemeth to me more satisfactory than yours , who fix upon certain points ( as the Baptismal Covenant ) as Essentials . For there is great diversity of mens Capacities . R. This cometh from confounding several Questions as if they were all one . 1. It is one Question , What is the Christian Religion ? 2. ☞ It is another Question , Whether the Christian Religion be absolutely necessary to the salvation of all those to whom it was never competently revealed ? 3. And it is another Question , Whether more than the Essentials of Christian Religion be not necessary to the salvation of many who have opportunity to know more ? Alas , what work doth Confusion make in the world ! To the first , It is evident that as Mahometanism is a thing which may be defined , so much more may Christianity : Who that writeth of the several Religions of the world , Ethnick , Jewish , Mahometan , and Christian , do not take them to be distinguishable and discernable ? Especially when Christ hath summed up Christianity into a Covenant , and given it us in express words , and affixed a flat promise of salvation to the true Covenanters , and the Church hath ever called our Baptism , our Christening ? Is Christianity Nothing ? If Something , Why may it not be defined , and differenced from all false Religions ? And if so , It hath its Essential Constitutive parts . All this is plain to Children that will see . 2. And then as to the second question , it concerneth not our Controversie at all . It is but Whether any Infidels may be saved ? Or any that are no Christians ? And if it could be proved , that any are saved that are no Christians , do you thereby prove that they are Christians , or members of the Christian Church ? or that Christianity is not a Religion which may be defined ? 3. And as to the third question , We are on all sides agreed in it , That they that have more than the naked Essentials of Christianity revealed to them aptly , are bound to believe more : Yea , it is hardly conceiveable that any one should know and believe the Essentials only , and no more : It is not Essential to the Christian Covenant or Christianity to know that the Name of Christs Mother was Mary ; or that Pontius Pilate was the man that condemned him ; And if an Ignorant man thought that his continuance in the Grave was four dayes , I do not think that this would damn his soul to Hell : ( Much less the not believing that Mary dyed a Virgin. ) And yet it is not like that any man should come to the Essentials of Christianity by any such way , as should acquaint him with no one of these , or any point besides the said Essentials . And yet it is certain for all this , that he that truly receiveth the Essentials , and is true to the Baptismal Covenant , shall be saved , whatsoever else he want : But it is as true , that he that Receiveth the Essentials , will ( from the same principles and obligations ) receive more , when it is aptly notified to him : And he that truly Covenanteth , will honestly keep the Covenant he maketh ; which bindeth him still to learn of Christ . But if any man be saved without the Essentials , he must be saved without Christianity . D. But you know that they distinguish of faith Explicite and Implicite : He may be Implicitely a Christian that believeth not the Essentials Explicitely ; as long as he believeth that which would infer them ; if they were made known to him to be indeed the Word of God. R. Thus do Words abuse and cheat the ignorant : Could you but read their own Dr. Holden before cited in his Analys . fid . you would find this distinction justly rendred by him shameful and ridiculous , according to their common sense and use of it ; and the truer sense delivered and vindicated . An Implicite faith or Knowledge we confess to be true , as it is opposed to 1. A distinct , or 2. To a well-expressed faith or Knowledge . For it is Implicite , ☞ 1. As to the Object , when a man knoweth the whole matter , but not by distinct parts : As a man may know a Cup of water , and not know how many drops or drams it is ; or he may know a sentence , and not know how many letters are in it . 2. Or it is Implicite as to the Act , when it is yet but a crude imperfect conception , and the thing is really known , but not the Logical notions , or Grammatical names , either the verba oris or mentis by which it should be expressed : So that the man cannot notifie his knowledge to another . These two are called Implicite ; the first signifieth Confused and General Knowledge , and the other Imperfect and undigested . But to call that Implicite faith or knowledge , which extendeth only to some Principles , and not to the Conclusions themselves , is 1. To Call No-knowledge and faith , by the name of knowledge and faith . 2. And by their application to confound the World and the Church , and to make all the Infidels and Heathens to be Christians , and every Fool a Philosopher . For , 1. All men of Reason know these two Principles ( who own a God ) , 1. That God is not a lyer , but all his Word is True. 2. That all the Truths in the world are God's , some way or other revealed by him . Therefore , if they knew that the Gospel were Gods word , they would believe it : or if they knew it to be one of those Truths that are in the world , they would take it to be of God. And thus all Infidels , and Turks , and Pagans may ( by such abuse ) be called Implicite Christians . But why then do the Papists burn the Protestants when if their Religion were true , we are all Implicitely Papists . For we believe , 1. That all Divine Revelations are True ; 2. And that all those are Infallible whom God hath promised to make Infallible ; 3. And that all those must be believed and obeyed whom God hath commanded us to believe and obey ; 4. And that we must not forsake that Church which God hath commanded us to adhere to ; 5. And that all our Lawful Pastors must be reverenced and submitted to ; 6. And all their lawful Precepts obeyed . 7. And all Gods Sacraments holily used ; 8. And all Traditions from the Apostles to the Churches received ; with many more such : Only we know not that the Pope is our Pastor , or that his Councils are the Church , or have a promise of Infallibility ; and so of the rest . And yet we must burn for it , if they can procure it . And yet he is a true believer Implicitely who believeth not the Essentials of Christianity . But the Design which is predominant here is too visible , when this Implicite faith cometh to be described : For it is not a Belief in God , or in Christ only that will serve the turn , but it must be a belief in the Church , and their Church , and their Pope too , or else it will not do . The Implicite faith is the explicite belief of these three Articles : 1. All Gods Word is true : 2. All that is Gods Word , which the Church tells us is Gods Word . 3. The Pope and his Council and Subjects are this Church . And yet this man must be supposed if he know no more , per impossibile , not to know that there is a Christ , or who he is as to his Person or Office , or what he hath done , or will do for us : And yet that he hath a Vicar and a Church . Or else they may know Christ and Christianity before they know that there is any Pope or Church , and then the Pope hath lost the Game . D. But if Popery be so senseless a thing as you make it , how come so great a number of persons of all ranks and qualities , Kings , Nobles , Learned men , and Religiously-disposed persons to embrace it ? Have not they souls to save or lose as well as you ? and do they not lay all their hopes of Heaven upon it ? and can such persons , and so many , be so mad and senseless ? R. Do we need thus to ramble round about , as if we would doubt of the thing till we know the Causes of it ? when we see and they all confess that they deny all our senses ? Will you not believe that there is a Sun , till you know what it is made of ? Or whether the Sea ebb and flow , till you know the Causes of it ? I pray you tell me , Q. 1. Do you think that the Mahometan's is not a very foolish Religion , and their foundation ( the pretended Mission of their Prophet ) without any shew of truth ; and his Alcoran ( if ever you read it ) a heap of Non-sense and Confusion ? D. Yes : I think it deserveth no better thoughts . R. And do you not know that ( though it arose not till about six hundred years after Christ ) much more of the world is Mahometan than Christian ? And are there not far Greater Emperours and Princes Mahometans than any that are Christians ? And have not all these souls to save or lose ? And do they not all venture their souls upon that Religion ? Why then is not your argument here as good for Mahometanism as for Popery ? D. Though the Emperours of Constantinople , the Great Mogul , the Persian , Tartarian Mahometans , &c. be all Great as to their vast Dominions , yet they are barbarous and unlearned in comparison of the Papists . R. 1. It is not because they have not as much wit as we : but because they think that our laborious wordy kind of learning , is an abuse of wit , and against true Policy , ludicrously or contentiously diverting mens minds and time from those employments which they think more manly and profitable to the Common-wealth ; Though no doubt but they do err more unmanly on that extream . But I further ask you , Q. 2. Do you not think that the Common Religion of the Heathens is very unworthy for any wise man to venture his soul upon ? If you have but read how it is described by the Antient Christians , Justin , Athenagoras , Origen , Arnobius , Minutius Foelix , Tertullian , Lactantius , Eusebius , Augustine , &c. you will say that they thought it a ridiculous unmanly Religion . D. I think no better of it than they did . R. And 1. Do you not know that almost all the world was then Heathen and Idolaters ? Alas , what was Judaea ( less than England ) to all the world ? Was not the Roman Empire , and Alexanders before that , far Greater than any Christian Prince hath now ? And to this day , are not four sixth parts of the whole world ( at least ) Heathens and Idolaters ? Brierwoods Calculation is , that if you divide the world into thirty parts , nineteen are Heathen , six Mahometans , and five only Christians of all sorts : besides the vast unknown parts of the world , which are not like to have any Religion of supernatural Revelation . 2. And do you not know , that Athens and Rome-Heathen were no Barbarians , but of most polite literature , and the Fathers of the Learning now in use ; and that when the Christians arose among them , they accounted them Barbarians ? And at this day , and long before us , the Chinenses have been addicted to Arts and Literature : And the Brachmanes and Bonzii are no Barbarians . And have not all these souls to save or lose ? And are all these so mad as to cast away their souls upon a senseless contemptible Religion ? If your reason be good , how much more will it hold for the Heathens , than the Papists ? Alas , what a handful are the Papists in comparison of the present Idolaters ! much more in comparison of the Antient Heathen world , before Christianity and Mahometanism dispossessed them of those parts which they now hold ! With what greater shew of advantage did the Heathens use the Arguments which the Papists do now put their trust in , and lay their Cause upon ! 1. Do they talk of Antiquity ? Why , it was the Novelty of Christianity in comparison of Heathenism through the world , which was it that hardned them to contemn and persecute it . 2. Do they talk of Vniversality and Consent ? Alas , how little a part of the world were the Christians at first , and are the Papists now , in comparison of the Heathens , then and now ? 3. Do they talk of Greatness , Empire , Acts and Learning ? How little are they as to the first , to the Heathen Empires ? And for Learning , they received it of them : And Aristotle still is the Schoolmens Oracle . And yet doubtless all these advantages are not sufficient to disprove the follies of Heanism , nor the badness of their Religion ? And yet will so much less serve to support the credit of senseless Popery ? D. But Christians may well expect greater helps from God , than Heathens or Mahometans : Therefore that so many Great and Learned and Religious Christians should go such a senseless way to another world , methinks seemeth strange . R. And are not Greeks , Armenians , Syrians , Abassines and Protestants , all Christians as well as they ? Their proud schismatical unchristening all but the subjects of the Pope , is a silly proof that we are no Christians , or that they are any better than others ; unless Malignity , uncharitableness and Schism be the true Excellency . 1. And are not other Christians More than the Papists ? Bishop Bramhall reckons the Papists to be about the fifth part of Christians : Suppose they be a third part ? They are still the Minor part . 2. And are not the Protestants as Learned as the Papists ? Why then will not your argument hold against them as well as for them ? Have not all these Christians souls to save or lose ? And do they not take that for the true Religion on which they trust their souls ? D. But though all these set together are more than the Church of Rome , yet no one Sect of them is so great ; and what matter is it how many various Sects are ? R. 1. The Greek Church is judged by wise men , te be yet bigger than the Roman , even in this its broken state : But there is no doubt but it was much bigger long after the first division , before the Turk did win the Eastern Empire . 2. But , if it were not so , your objection is frivolous . The Question is either of Different Churches , or of Different opinions and parties in the same Church . As to the first , There are but two opinions in the Christian world , that I know of , about the Constitution of the Catholick Church . The one is the opinion of the Papists only , ☞ that The Catholick Church is essentially constituted both of Christ , and the Pope as his Vicar and universal Monarch , with all his subjects ; as the pars Imperans and pars subdita . The other is the judgement of all other Christians , ( that I know or hear of , ) that The Catholick Church is essentially constituted only of Christ as the supream Head , or King , or pars Imperans , and his subjects as the pars subdita ; ☞ And that Patriarchs , Archbishops , Bishops , &c. are but Officiales & subditi primarii vel nobiles , constitutive parts indeed of their particular Churches ( some humane , and some Divine ) but no essential parts of the Catholick Church . ☞ This is the Grand difference between the Papists and all other Christians in the World , What the Catholick Church is ? Whether it have any Constitutive Vniversal Head or Monarch besides Christ ? Now seeing that Greeks , Abassines , Armenians and all agree with us in this against the Papists , it is evident to them that are willing to see that we are all of the same Catholick Church , though not of the same particular Churches , nor all for the same Official Ministers ; Because we are all for the same Constitutive Head , and his subjects as such , and agree in all the Essential parts , ☞ So that our differences among all these parties or particular Churches or Countries is but the difference of Opinions and parties in one and the same Church ; and not a difference of Catholick Churches ( which can be but one . ) And if that be the question , I undertake to prove that there is no one Sect of Christians known under Heaven , that hath so many different opinions within it self , ( if half so many , ) nor have written half so much against one another , as the Papists have done . 3. But I must not here anticipate my further work : when I come to that , I shall shew you how small and how disagreeing a part of the Christian world the Papists are . I have elsewhere recited the words of their Melchior Canus who boasteth that the Papacy yet standeth , though almost all the world , and besides Princes , almost all the Bishops and Churches have fought against it . Was it then the Universal Church ? And the words of Reynerius who saith , that the Churches of the Armenians and the others planted by the Apostles ( without the Empire he meaneth ) were not under the Pope of Rome . I shall , if I live to do that work , yet fullier shew you , that the Pope was but the chief Patriarch in one Empire , as the Archbishop of Canterbury is the chief Bishop in England ; and that his General Councils were but General Assemblies of the Empire ( inconsiderable occasional accidentals excepted ) , even as our Convocations , or the Scots General Assemblies were , though in a far larger Empire . But all this I have done already in other writings , beyond all reasonable contradiction . D. Tell me then , how it cometh to pass that so many Princes , Nobles , Learned men , and Religious can be so marvellously deluded ? R. Alas poor man ; You talk as if you knew not your self nor mankind ! how bad a thing corrupt unsanctified nature is ! Why do you not also ask , How cometh it to pass , that the far greatest part of the World ( even five parts of six ) are Heathens and Mahometanes ! and that most of the World are wilful self-destroyers ; many ruining their very bodies , Eating , and Drinking , and Whoreing , and Idling them into Gowt , Stone , Dropsies and an hundred Maladies : but far more ruining their souls . Why do you not also ask , How reasonable Creatures ( of all Professions ) are so worse than mad , as to sell their souls and everlasting hopes , for a dream and shadow , or for dirt and dung ; even for a few Cups or Morsels , or merry hours , which they know are like the mirth of drunkenness , which is quickly gone , and ends in sickness and in shame ! For a great Name , and a large attendance in their way to the grave ! For the thoughts and breath of mortal man ! And for that which all men first or last , are forced to call meer Vanity and Vexation ! Were not men mad in sin , had they never heard a Preacher , the sight of a dead Carkass and a grave would do more to make them sober and considerate , than is done with most . When most of the World will obstinately follow the Devil their enemy , by known sin to everlasting misery , against all the commands , exhortations , promises , threatnings , mercies and warnings of God himself , and all the perswasions of their truest friends , What wonder if the same men can be Papists or any thing ? But I will tell you some of the particular Causes . I. Abroad in other Countries , there are all these Reasons easily discernible . 1. Who knoweth not how great an advantage Education hath , to form mens judgements to almost any thing , how bad soever ? That which children receive , if it be not disagreeable to their sensible interest , how commonly and tenaciously do they follow ? Whence is it that the whole Empires and Kingdoms of Pagans are all of one mind ; and the Kingdoms of Mahometans of another ? One Kingdom almost all Greek Christians and another Papists , and another Lutherans , and another Reformists , & c ? Hath not education a great hand in this ? 2. And the custome of the Countrey , and the company which they converse with , is of no small power with mens minds . Especially when men live where almost all are of a mind , they think that concord is a sign of truth , and modesty forbiddeth them to be wiser than all the Countrey . 3. And when they know few or none of another mind , how should they know what they are ? And when they hear an hundred lies against them , and never hear them speak for themselves , they think that the Law of modesty , humanity and converse , oblige them to believe , that so Many , so Great , and so Learned and Religious persons will not impudently lie : When as perhaps the lye it self is a Tradition which the lyars received on the same terms in modest credulity from their teachers or fathers . 4. And specially , the Names of Order , Government , Vnity , and Concord , deceive many millions of souls : For Order and Vnity are justly amiable to nature it self . And the purblind know not an Image from a Man. 5. Especially when civil Wars , or Church discords have distracted the World , and made men aweary of all that 's present , and suspicious of all things , which seemed to have a hand in their disappointments ; this maketh men hearken to any thing which pretendeth to certain settlement , Order and peace . Even as a man that by turning round is wheelsick , will lay hold on the next post or fixed thing , to keep him from falling down . 6. And when their Teachers make them believe , that all Christians besides them do live like mad-men , in Sects and Schismes , distractedly tearing out one anothers throats , What wonder if this make men willing of any way which pretends to peace , and glad to run into any Cottage which will keep them from such a storm ? 7. But the great cause is , 1. The Blindness of mens minds , 2. The wickedness of all unrenewed hearts , and 3. The power of carnal Interest . 1. Few men are of great natural parts for wit , and fewer improve them , by any serious study of things spiritual . 2. Almost all men study with the byas of prejudice and partiality , and as men that would have one side to be right , because it is for their worldly ends . 3. Sin Ruleth in most souls , and the enmity against God and his Laws prevaileth in carnal minds , Rom. 8.6 , 7 , 8. And enmity is an ill student and seeker of truth ; and friendship is an incompetent judge of sin . 4. None but a few self-denying persons can bear to be reproached as Hereticks and Schismaticks by all about them . 5. Especially the countenance or discountenance of Great ones , doth more with such than Heaven and Hell. 6. And that 's not all , But he that will not be a Papist , in most of their Countreys must be undone , and in many must be rackt , tormented and burnt : And it is but few that have learnt to go to so high a price for truth , and to be Religious at such a rate . 8. Therefore it is a thing utterly unknown among them , who is heartily a Papist , and who not . For when men must take on them to be Papists or be undone , or burnt , millions will seem to be such that are not . For , 9. Most of the World have no Religion in truth and power , to overcome the world and flesh : and therefore will seem to be of that Religion , which hath the upper hand , and serveth their turns . 10. Yea , the very Belief of the Immortality of the soul , the Resurrection and the life to come , is feeble , if not unsound and lifeless , in the most of men : And so is the Belief of the Christian faith : And a man that doubteth whether there be another life or not , will make as sure as he can of the pleasures of this present life . And I fear that this is the case of no small number of Papists ; to think , [ I know not whether there be any other life of retribution : I rather think that there is none : But lest it should prove true , I will be of some Religion : And where can I be with more ease and safety , than in that which my Rulers and Teachers and the whole Countrey say is right ? If it prove otherwise , I hope God will excuse me , while I obey my Governours , and do as the most do . ] He that much doubteth of the truth of Christianity it self , may easily fall in with any Sect which seemeth for his interest . I fear Melancthon too truly said , that Italians maintain that Christ is in the Sacrament , when they do not believe that he is in Heaven . 11. And many Nicodemites think , that a man needs not expose himself to danger for his faith , but may keep it to himself , and do as his neighbours do : especially where they have no other society to joyn with , they think it better to joyn with the Popish Churches than none . 12. And I have reason to think that it is but few among the multitude , that understand indeed what the Papists hold , while they go with them in the general Name and profession : And in particular about Transubstantiation : When even the subtle Schoolmen are not agreed of its proper sense ; ( as Durandus his instance for one doth prove . ) I do not think that one of an hundred that receiveth their Eucharist , doth in his heart believe , that It is not Bread : But some think that their Church it self meaneth otherwise : And some say , [ It is not for such as I to contradict them and dispute ; but I will leave every one to think as he will ; and so will I. ] 13. And as for Princes and Lords abroad , Those that have once escaped Popery will take heed how they entertain it again , unless lust and folly have sold them for a prey : But they that live where their subjects are Papists , dare not venture to shake so great a fabrick , lest they overthrow themselves : For 1. People are tumultuous ; 2. The Popish Clergie are rich and powerful and exceeding numerous . 3. Religion is a thing that men are tender and tenacious of , who are seriously of any . 4. The Popish doctrine of deposing and killing excommunicate Kings , maketh many Princes flatter the Priests , for fear of losing ●heir lives . They think that it is better make some advantage of the Popes friendship , than to have such an enemy , whose Knives and poison have easie access , and whose armies we must watch against in peace , as in a continued War , and we know not when they are in our own houses or near us , nor where nor when we are in safety . 14. And , alas , the Great ones of the World have the greatest Temptations , and not the weakest lusts and passions , and have more of worldly and carnal Interest to carry them away ! 15. And the Papists Religion is notably suited to their lusts and carnal ends : All which , and much more , may tell you that it no wonder , that so many forreign Princes , and States and Nobles can cleave to so sensless a way as Popery . D. II. But how come so many among us in England to turn Papists of late years , where Popery is discountenanced by the King , Parliament and Laws ? R. Many of the same Causes do this , which I need not reherse . And 1. Too many both Noble and ignoble are prepared by their Lusts , and by a vicious life . There are many things in Popery which greatly accommodate a carnal mind and a debauched guilty Conscience , which the Christian Protestant Religion affordeth not . And a profligate flagitious person , is likeliest to be forsaken of God , and to be given up to believe a lye , seeing they received not the truth in the love of it , that they might be saved , 2 Thess . 2.10 , 11 , 12. I fear nothing so much , as lest men turn Heart-Infidels and Tongue-Papists ( as the suitablest Reserve , lest Christian Religion and the life to come , should prove a truth ) . And indeed great sins Cry for great Vengeance : And what Greater than for Mind , Will and Life to be forsaken of God ? 2. And alas , except Lawyers , Physicions and others bred up to Studies and Employments , how few are there of Nobility or Gentry that are hard studying men ! And the great Mysteries of Religion will not be well learned and defended , by a life of eating , drinking , playing , jeasting , gaming , hawking , hunting , visitings of empty company , lustfulness , worldliness , or vain-glorious pomp . No men grow wise or Christians indeed by such a course . 3. And indeed the Popish Priests are more industrious than too many of our Incumbent Ministers ; for which they are Commendable in their way : The Erroneous are oft more zealous than the Orthodox . And they that apprehend themselves between fear and hope , are usually more industrious than they that by possession are secure : which maketh the lower side so oft get up , and the upper side go down . And I would I might not say , that our Ministers are too few of them able to deal with a trained Sophister : Some are unable in this particular cause , because they take it as a baffled pack of notorious Errors , and thought that few sober persons were in danger of it : And so they have ( honestly ) bent their studies and labours to the winning of sensual persons from their sins ; and are unfurnished in the Popish Controversies ; knowing that they can refer them to multitudes of Books , which are unanswerable . But alas , too many also are unable through meer ignorance , lowness of parts , and gross insufficiency or negligence , not only in this , but other parts of their Ministerial work . 4. And we have incurred no small dammage and danger , by ignorant Over-doing against the Papists : Partly with the self-wise Sectaries , calling many laudable or blameless things , by the Name of Popery , Antichristianity and Idolatry , because they are cross to their pre-judging partial conceits : And partly by some unsound doctrines , which some defend as parts of the Protestant Religion : And partly by magnifying verbal differences , and making a noise about them as if they were real , and such as salvation lyeth on : For want of skill to state a controversie , and discern a verbal difference from a real . And when a Papist can but shew their Novices one such palpable error in the Writings of a Protestant ; What sad work will he make with it ? and still harp upon that string , and perswade the people that the rest of our differences are such like . And thus many Overdoing well-meaning ignorant men both Ministers and people , have unwittingly done as much to harden Papists , and increase their numbers , almost as if Satan had hired them as Spies , to betray the Churches and Cause of Christ : Yea , and if one better studied in these points , shall go a sounder and more successful way to work , and take these weapons out of the Papists hands , which some ignorant Protestants have given them , the same mens blind zeal will rage against them , ( as some did against Chillingworth , Anthony Wotton , and divers others our greatest Champions ) as if it were not themselves but these , that were befriending Popery . So that they neither can confute them soundly themselves , nor will suffer others , but zealous Protestants assault Christs ablest servants at their backs , while their faces are towards the adversaries whom they oppose . 5. But nothing among us ( except Ignorance and wickedness ) increaseth them more , than the scandal of our numerous , and some of them abominable Sects . When the people see many zealous professors turn Quakers , or Ranters , or Seekers , or Antinomians , or Socinians , or Familists ; and shall see the more tolerable parties ( Episcopal , Presbyterian , Independant , Erastian , Separatists , and Anabaptists ) condemning , backbiting , reproaching and making odious ( if not persecuteing ) one another , and shunning ( many of them ) the Communion of one another , as they do the Papists . This makes them think , that they must seek some surer soberer way than any of us have yet found : and the Papists set in and tell them , [ All these are branches broken off from the true Vine and withered ; This it is to depart from the Catholick Church ; when they are once gone thence , there is no stop or consistence , till they crumble all to dust and atomes : You must become Roman Catholicks , or go mad : You see to what confusion all others tend : If you once leave our Church , you will never know where to settle ▪ Which Sect will you be of ? If an Independant , why not an Anabaptist ? If an Anabaptist , why not an Antinomian ? How will you ever know which one of all these is in the right ] ? All this is easily answered by a man of understanding ; But to the ignorant Vulgar , it seemeth unanswerable . And alas , how many have given them this scandal ? Wo be to some by whom offence cometh . 6. But the Contentions of our Clergie advantage them more than the divisions of the people : when we are of many interests , and many parties , and proceed to make each other contemptible and odious : especially when we come to hinder each other from the work of our Ministry . A house and Kingdom divided cannot stand : Christ tells us that the Devil himself is not so foolish , as to divide his Kingdom . All our consent and best endeavour is too little to save mens souls from sin and error : And when one part is cast by , and each part by contention hindereth the other : the Papists have the far easier work . When one part are not to come within five miles of Cities or Corporations , where Papists are , and those that may come near them are too few , and many too indisposed , or negligent in resisting them ; so that we are all overdone by their Priests in constant diligence , ( especially with the Greater rank of men , with whom one part of our Ministers , have almost as little inclination as opportunity to converse , ) no wonder if the Roman work go on . 7. And , alas , how great advantage have they made of our late calamitous Civil Wars , and manifold scandalous Rebellions ? Though indeed it was the terrour of their murdering about two hundred thousand in Ireland ( of which see Bishop Jones , Sir John Temple , and the Earl of Orery against Welsh , ) which frightened those that I was acquainted with , out of their peace , and almost out of their wits here in England , yet dead men are not heard on Earth , and their service for the King in England serveth not only for a Cloke for that , but for an advantage against many that stand in their way . In all Civil Wars , if the Clergy be drawn in to own several Causes ( especially if they own an ill Cause ) who ever prevaileth , Religion suffereth by it ; while one part of them are laid by , or hindered by the other . 8. And though God hath greatly obliged this Nation to thankfulness , by preserving our Superiours so much from Popery as he hath done , yet some of their names are injuriously abused , to entice men to the Popish way , as if it had so much countenance and patronage , that Interest might invite them to it . 9. And the World is lyable to changes , and weary of holding long in one way : The name of Antiquity especially in Religion is venerable with all ; but yet it is Novelty that pleaseth in the Matter . And when Popery is to us a New way honoured with the name of The old Religion , it is a taking bait . 10. But the grand cause of all , is , the common peoples Ignorance , as being ungrounded in their own Religion ; and their badness , who measure all by carnal Interests , and all our great and manifold sins , by which we have forfeited Gods presence and his grace , and provoked him to leave us to the shame and ruine of our own lusts and delusions to undoe our selves . Great sins bring great plagues . And most men are of their Religion who have the greatest interest in their estimation and affections , or that have greatest advantage on them by constant nearness , familiarity , kindred , kindness or power to do them good or hurt in the World. And therefore to your question Why so many of late turn Papists , I shall but now concludingly answer you , as I begun with you , concerning the Cause of your own doubts ; They that have long lived under the light of the holy Gospel , and among the mercies which have blest this Land , and yet have been sincerely no true Christians , but loved their fleshly lusts and pleasures , and their wealth and worldly honour , more than God , or holiness , or Heaven , it is no wonder that they easily change their party , and can be , in siding , of any Religion who are in sincerity of none ; and if God forsake their understandings , and give them up to senseless and unreasonable opinions , who would not live according to the knowledge which they had , nor obey the truth which was clearly opened to them . And such hypocrites and perfidious rebels against Christ , all Protestants do confess themselves to have been , who turn Papists , and know what they do : Because they profess to go from a state of damnation , into a Church out of which there is no salvation ; if the Popes judgement be as powerful in Heaven , as it is at Rome . D. But is there no hope of ending these lamentable differences , and removing the scandal of Infidels hereby ? or at least of living together like Neighbours without seeking each others blood or ruine ? R. 1. Yes ; when God shall by his Providence take down the worldly Greatness and Advantages of the Papacy , and level the King of Rome with the true Pastors of his Church , and turn the usurping Monarch of all the World into a true Bishop ; that so worldly Power , honour and wealth , may not be stronger arguments with their party than Heaven and Hell , and Gods commands . Till then their Great twisted Interest is like to rule them , and keep them in the errours into which it hath involved them . Especially while their pretended Infallibility ( against all sense and reason ) is their strength , which maketh them uncurable in any errour which they once embrace . 2. But yet I did in the second Part of my Key for Catholicks , long ago shew the terms on which we may live like neighbours , if not like Christians , if their principles would allow their minds , to be but peaceable , and give dissenters leave to live . And I still profess that might we but secure our selves and our posterity , I am none of those that would have the least injury , much less cruelty exercised upon any man for being a Papist : If they will live peaceably with me , or but give me leave , I will live peaceably with them . And I doubt not but as there are some among them truly fearing God ( though corrupt with the errours of their education ) so there are more that are of kind and civil natures , which their ill opinions cannot make fierce and sanguinary nor overcome . And none of them , I think , shall be more loving , kind and peaceable to me , than I will be to him . And I confess I have a greater respect and honour for those whose Ancestors have transmitted Popery to them under the name of the True Catholick faith , and who live according to what they know ( though perhaps in blind zeal they hate me and such others for the Interest of their way , ) than I have for those that seemed once Protestants , and by filthy debauched lives have made it seem needful or convenient for them to turn Papists , that they may have a seeming Religion and Priests pardons to quiet or deceive their Consciences ; or than I have for those Papists who live in drunkenness , lust and common lying and prophane swearing , while yet they seem to be Religious and regardful of God and their souls ; or than I have for those Priests who befriend such mens wickedness for the increase and interest of their Church . Yea , I truly profess that if I know a truly Godly conscionable charitable Papist , I must , I will love and honour him far more than an ungodly , unconscionable , uncharitable Protestant . And as far as I can discern , both Ministers and private Christians ( but especially Ministers ) whom I most converse with , are of the same mind . D. But is there no way possible to bring them fairly off , in this gross business of Transubstantiation , without putting them upon the disclaiming of the Popes and General Councils Infallibility ? R. I am not bound to devise accommodations to strengthen them in their other errours , if I could . But yet I would cure any errour in any , though they intend their own cure to an evil end . I cannot be perswaded but their understanding men are sorry at the heart that the Laterane Council hath drawn them into such a snare , by making Transubstantiation an Article of their faith ; and that they are very angry at them , and wish that it had never been done : but being done they must take on them to believe it , lest they pull down with their foundation all their fabrick . I doubt not but they are troubled and ashamed to read the Schoolmens disputes of Transubstantiation , exposing Christianity to the Infidels scorn , which this Council hath most occasioned . I know not how to bring them off , unless they will hearken to what Dr. Taylor in his Disswasive from Popery , and Dr. Heylin , and Dr. Pierson and Dr. Gunning in the Dispute , have said against the Validity of that Laterane Council ( could they but spare the Canon for deposing Temporal Lords , and dispossessing them of their Dominions , and absolving all their Papists subjects from their Oaths of Allegiance and exterminating the rest ; Yea it would be more serviceable to them at last with Princes , to retract that also , than to keep it . ) Their best way is to take the help of these pretences , and condemn the contrary Reasons of Mr. Terret and his fellow Disputant against the foresaid Doctors , and expunge that Council out of Binnius , Surius and the rest who number it with the approved Councils ; and because Matth. Paris and others say that some at the Council thought the Canons burdensom , and they were brought in by the Pope , and hastily read , &c. therefore say , that They were not passed at least Conciliariter , which you know is a word that serveth their turn against another Council which they dislike . D. But what shall they do with following Councils , especially that at Trent , which say the same ? R. The best shifts that I know are , 1. To do as they do about the condemning of Pope Honoririus as a Heretick . They say that a General Council and Pope too may err in a matter of fact ; and so they did in judging of Honorius his meaning : So they may say , that the Council of Trent did decree this as an Article of faith , only because they thought that the Church so held it : which was because they thought that the General approved Council of Laterane had so decreed it ▪ But now finding that it was not so decreed there , the error in matter of fact ceasing , which was the supposition , the doctrinal error proveth to be no Article of faith , or Conciliariter decretum . 2. Or if this will not do , they are best yet stretch the words of Rome and Trent , to a more tolerable signification , and say , That it is not the ceasing of the substance of Bread and Wine which is meant ; but the changing it into a Relative new form : And so , as the Whole substance of a man is changed from being a meer Common man , into a King , a Bishop , a Doctor , without any cessation of his Humanity ; but only quia forma ultima denominat , he is not any more to be called meerly A Man , but A King , A Bishop , &c. Or , as the whole substance of a piece of Gold is changed into Currant Coin by the Kings Stamp , &c. So the whole substance of Bread is turned into the ( Representative ) Body of Christ , and the whole substance of Wine into his ( Representative ) blood ; which change they call Transubstantiation . But why should I give counsel to men that will not thank me for it , and that obstinately refuse much better ? D. But why speak you nothing of their denying the people the Cup ? I thought you would principally have fastned on that . R. Because it is no part of this present Controversie , which I was first to handle , though it concern the same Sacrament : But it is such an instance , as serveth to tell those of the world that will understand , what horrid unreasonable , audacious arrogance and Vsurpation and Treason against God and the true Head of the Church , this pretended Monarch of the world , and his pretended Catholick Church ( the Popish Sect ) are guilty of : considering , 1. That it is as essential a part of the Sacracrament as the Bread is : For Christ hath made no difference . 2. It hath the same Institution and express Command : He that said , [ Take , Eat ] said also [ Drink ye all of this : ] He hath said , [ Do this in remembrance of me ] of One as well as of the Other . 3. Therefore to take away an Essential part , is to take away the Sacrament , and make it another thing . As it is not a humane body that hath not both Head and Heart : So here . 4. Therefore by the same authority they might have continued the Cup , and taken away the Bread ; or have taken away both . 5. And on the same reason they might have taken away Baptism , and all Christs positive Institutions . And for ought I know the Ministry it self as instituted . 6. But then Gersons question , de auferabilitate Papae would be next to be debated : For were he of Christs own Institution ( as he is not ) it is no more than the Cup in the Lords Supper . Could he but prove an Institution of his Papacy as evidently , who would not be his Subject ? If you say , But who should take him down , if it might be done ? I answer , Kings in their own Kingdoms , and his own General Councils . The Kings of France , Spain , &c. may easily prove , that they have more power to cast out the Pope , than he hath to cast out half Christs Sacrament : And they may better forbid their own Subjects to obey a forreign Usurper , than he can forbid all the world to obey Christ . 7. And for all this , the wit of man can hardly devise What Reason they have to do it ? What point of their Religion ? What Interest of their own did engage them to it ? Unless it be their Interest to shew that they are Above Christ and the Scripture , I do not yet discern their reason . 8. And yet they have , with Resolution and obstinacy , persisted herein divers hundreds of years , and denyed the requests of Emperours , Nobles , and great part of several Kingdoms in this point . This and the leaving out the second Commandment , seem to be of purpose to shew that they are above the Maker of the Ten Commandments and of the Gospel . How long Lord shall Tyranny oppress the Nations of the Earth , and the Honour and Domination and Wills of Rebels , prevail to tread down Truth and Godliness , and keep the notice of thy salvation from the sinful miserable world ; whilest yet we daily pray by thy Command , that Thy Name may be Hallowed , Thy Kingdome come , and Thy Will be done , on Earth as it is done in Heaven ? Whether the Pope be the Antichrist meant in the Scripture ( by that name ) or not , you see that my passing it by doth shew my cautelousness in resolving ( as Zanchy and others before me have done ) , because I am confessedly so far unstudyed or ignorant of the sense of the Revelations and some other Scripture Prophecies , as that I must leave such cases to such as Bishop Downame and others that have deeper insight into them : Every man should be best at that which he hath most studyed . But I must needs say , that though I take it to be indispensible duty , to keep up all due charity to all professed Christians ; such instances as these which I have here opened do utterly disable me from confuting that man , who shall assert that this pretended Vicar of Christ , and King or Monarch of the world , ( and so King of Kings , and Lord of Lords ) is an abominable Usurper , and insolent Traytor , against God , and the true King and Head of the Universal Church . How long will Princes and Prelates , Learned and Unlearned be deluded by him , or fear Power ? And when shall he be restrained from hindering Christs Gospel , and the Peace and Concord of the Christian world ? FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A26931-e4170 Johns . Nov. Repr . p. 426. Protestants formally such , have not enough to be brought to the unfeigned Love of God above all things , and special Love to his servants , and unfeigned willingness to obey him : I deny you have any certain knowledge or feeling that you love God or his servants , or willingness to obey , &c. Knot against Chillingworth Ch. 2. p. 122. [ In no one doctrine Protestants would seem more unanimously to agree , than in this , That all things necessary to salvation are contained evidently in Scripture — which they hold as the only foundation of the whole structure of their Faith and Religion . ] Note this Confession . See Dr. Holden Analys . fidei Li. 1. c. 3. Lett. 1. He that would know what stress we lay on Tradition as the Medium may see it fully in my Reasons of Christ . Relig. And Dr. Holden is more for us than for the Papists , Cap. 3. Q. Was it from the Church that the first Church received it ? Or was it not the same Divine Religion which the first Church ( whether Council or Practicers ) received without the Tradition of Council or Practicers ? If so , this cannot be essential to Religion . If the Apostles words were to be believed , their proved Writings are to be believed . And their Writings were proved theirs before a General Council or Universal Practice witnessed it : Even by each Church and person that received any Epistle from any one of them . So that if the Doctors will but differ in their Expositions , the Scripture is no more the sure Word of God , or to be believed by Catholick faith . Of the Pope without a General Council . Mark then , that it may be de fide divina , though not of Catholick necessity without the proposal of Council or universal practice . Johns . Nov. Rep. p. 19. of the explication of Terms : Know you not , that Divines are divided , what are the points necessary to be believed explicitely necessitate medii : Some , and those the more antient hold , that the explicite belief of God , of the whole Trinity , of Christ , his Passion , Resurrection , &c. are necessary necessitate medii : Others among the recentiors , that no more than the belief of the Deity , and that he is the rewarder of our works , is absesolutely necessary with that necessary , to be explicitely believed . He doth better interpret the distinction of Explicite and Implicite on another occasion , in another sense . Holden . l. 1. c. 9. p. 169. Queret an teneatur quispiam a● internum Divinae fidei actum , quem nec semper fortasse in eius potestate situm novimus ? Quamdiu sane arbitretur quispiam hujusmodi fidei actum lumini naturali & rationi oppositum & contrarium esse , nequaquam poterit ad illum eliciendum astringi . Notes for div A26931-e26910 Aquin. p. 3. q. 75. a. 5. ad 3. Fides non est contra sensum , sed est d● eo ad quod sensus non attingit . But doth not sense say , Here is Bread and Wine ? Vid. Aquin. 3. q. 82. a. 7. c. Vid. Aquin. 3. q. 69. a. 9. Vid. Aquin. 3. q. 82. a. 8. 2 Cor. 12.12 . Rom. 15.19 . Act. 14.3 . & 15.12 . Matth. 21.15 . So they do by forbidding to eat Flesh in Lent : And yet say they eat Christs flesh in Lent : When Irenaeus cited by Occumenius Com. in 1 Pe● . c. 3. bringeth in Blandina proving to the Heathens that Christians did not eat flesh and drink blood in the Eucharist , because that they use even to abstain for exercise sake , from Lawful flesh . See my More Reasons for the Christian Religion , and the Lord Herbert de Veritate . Apply this to Mr. Johnsons Rejoynder on this Point , and you will see his Vanity . 
A66243	----	A plain defence of the Protestant religion, fitted to the meanest capacity being a full confutation of the net for the fishers of men, published by two gentlemen lately gone over to the Church of Rome. Wherein is evidently made appear, that their departure from the Protestant religion was without cause of reason. Written for publick good by L. E. a son of the Church of England, as by law established. L. Ė. 1687 Approx. 144 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 32 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A66243 Wing W251A ESTC R221936 99833180 99833180 37655 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A66243) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 37655) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2160:6) A plain defence of the Protestant religion, fitted to the meanest capacity being a full confutation of the net for the fishers of men, published by two gentlemen lately gone over to the Church of Rome. Wherein is evidently made appear, that their departure from the Protestant religion was without cause of reason. Written for publick good by L. E. a son of the Church of England, as by law established. L. Ė. Wake, William, 1657-1737, attributed name. [16], 46, [2] p. printed by S.L. and are to be sold by R. Taylor, near Stationers-Hall, London : 1687. Wing attributes this work to William Wake. With a preliminary imprimatur leaf dated Jan. 26. 1686/7. Tightly bound. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng J. C., -- late convert. -- Net for the fisher of men and the same which Christ gave to His Apostles -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Catholic converts -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2005-01 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion IMPRIMATUR . Guil. Needham . Jan. 26. 1686 / 7. A Plain DEFENCE OF THE PROTESTANT RELIGION , Fitted to the Meanest Capacity : Being a Full CONFUTATION OF THE NET FOR THE Fishers of Men , Published by two Gentlemen lately gone over to the Church of Rome . Wherein is evidently made appear , that their departure from the Protestant Religion was without Cause or Reason . Written for publick good by L. E. a Son of the Church of England , as by Law Established . Be not tossed too and fro with every Wind of Doctrine , by the sleight of Men , and cunning Craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive . Eph. 4. 14. London , Printed by S. L. and are to be sold by R. Taylor , near Stationers-Hall , 1687. To Mr. J. C. and Mr. J. M. C. The Authors of the Net for the Fishers of Men. Gentlemen , I Hope that your design in publishing your little Treatise , was a zealous desire to bring others of your Country-men into the same Church which you have made your selves Members of , out of pure Love to their Souls , which you ( I suppose ) think cannot be safe out of its Communion : and I am the rather induced to believe it , because you seem so confident of the strength of your Arguments , that in the Epistle Dedicatory , you reckon them unanswerable , and in that to the Reader you express your Sence of them to be very high . This I take to be an effect of your Zeal , for I am sure it is not of your Knowledg , and I would charitably perswade my self , that you love the Truth too well , to pretend a defence of what you know is Erroneous , or endeavour to promote the Progress of delusions ; but out of a sincere Heart offer the Reasons which prevailed with you to a Change , not seeing their weakness ; which is indeed so very notorious , that I never thought to have seen them published , though I have often known them vigorously pressed in private Discourses , where heat and unwariness may let them pass without discovering that there is nothing of Force in them ; it being generally the Practice of the Romanists , but especially the Jesuits , to have a Set of Arguments for private unstudied Adversaries , with which they catch too many , who because they carry a specious Shew at first , examine but little farther , and without consulting others , suffer themselves to be led Captive . I have in the following Treatise , according to your Desire in the Preface , annexed my Answers to your Queries ; for which reason I have done it by way of Dialogue , that so I might be the more brief , and omit nothing of what you offered . I don't doubt but I have shewn the weakness of every particular Argument ; but to save you and my self a great deal of Trouble , if you reply , I shall here take notice of several gross faults in your Arguing , which if they be not remedied , will create endless difficulties . You never tell us what you mean by the word Church ; in some places you take it for the Congregation of the Faithful , in others for a Council , and in others for a particular Church . In your Allegations out of Scripture you bring many Texts , which indeed prove nothing to your purpose . Thus in a question of the universal Church , you bring a Text that speaks of a particular one , or of every private Minister . And in the question about Confirmation , in defence of Oyl , and Balm , you cite places which mention only Imposition of Hands . You suppose the Roman Church to be the only Church of Christ , without any Proof , which is plain begging the question , and not arguing : So in other places you beg the question : And you take it for granted that Peter had the chief Charge over the Apostles committed to him , that all oral Tradition is Apostolical , that God hath commanded nothing concerning a Liturgy in an unknown Tongue : and that because Reliques have been the Instruments by which Miracles were wrought , therefore they must be Worshipped . You mistake the Question , and run on upon a Point not contested ; which is arguing to no purpose , nothing but making a Puppet , and knocking him down . Thus when the Question is about Praying in an unknown Tongue , you argue for the lawfullness of speaking with Tongues ; in the point of Free Will you plead for Free Will in Moral actions , which we acknowledge , when the question is about those Actions that are Spiritual : again you argue against Faith without Works , when the question is , whether Faith alone justifies , not whether Faith can be without Works ; for that we deny as well as you . So in the point of Religious Vows , you argue for the lawfullness of Vows in general , when the Controversy is about those particular Vows , which we Condemn . You quote several Scriptures famous , not only as to the particular references , of which there are a Multitude , so many that I am afraid you took them up upon Trust ; but also the very Texts . Thus you make St. Paul call Marriage a Sacrament , when he calls it only a Mystery ; so you have falsified , Heb. 12 11. and several other places , as I have proved in the Book it self . I might add several Instances of these and other Particulars , such as your taking the word Universal in three several Sences , and yet applying all one way , but these shall suffice , and I am in hopes will let you see how wretchedly your Pretended Fathers have dealt with you , by putting such Arguments upon you , and founding your Faith upon such weak Grounds . I desire you would not take it ill that I attribute this work to some of them , and do so freely tax you with not seeing the Vanity of it ; for I suppose you are Gentlemen , whose Education hath engrossed your time to other Matters , and cannot therefore be reasonably supposed to have sufficient Experience in these Points to make you able to discern their Sophisms , and unconcluding Arguments , which they have shamm'd upon you for convincing Reasons . If you are convinc'd by this answer , I shall bless God for it ; if not , I desire you would satisfy the World why you are not : But don 't follow tht Methods of some late Writers , who have wisely withdrawn from the main Business , and only cavilled at a word or two , as being . Improper , or something of that Nature , when they could not answer the Reasons of their Adversaries , nor defend their own : I might easily have done so by you , but as I have dealt seriously and plainly , I expect the same , and I pray God send us his Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth . I am , Gentlemen , Your very humble Servant , L. E. TO THE Reader , Courteous Reader , A Serious Enquiry and search after Truth is the Duty of every rational Creature , and he that hath an unfeigned desire to find it , and happiness in it , will not neglect any lawful means to arrive at the knowledge of it ; seeing by it the Mind is enlightened , our Faith regulated and fixed , and our actions guided to that true felicity , which Crowns the Soul with Peace here , and Bliss hereafter . The Consideration of this , when duly weighed , can never fail of putting us on Enquiry , how we shall attain it . The Jaylor was no sooner awakened , but he puts the question , what shall I do ? and we have this Enoouragement to prosecute the Search , that if we seek , we shall surely find , and the Holy Spirit shall guide us into Truth . Of all the Papers lately published by the Gentlemen of the Romish Church , I find none which seems more earnestly to seek Truth , than this which I have here answered , and I am not so uncharitable as to doubt at all of the Sincerity of the Authors Profession , in the Epistle ; but I must say they have not taken the right Course ; these Queries should have been put before they turned ; which if they had , I believe their now Ghostly Fathers had missed their Proselytes ; therefore I desire of thee , Reader , that if any Reply be made to this Treatise , or if some Emissaries should attempt thee privately in defence of what I have here answered , thou wouldest Suspend thy Judgment till I have time to Reply , or else consult some learned Divine , and then I am sure there is no danger of thy Perversion , if thou retainest a sincere desire to find the Truth ; the want of that Caution hath perverted several , within my Knowledge ; the Priests industriously keeping those , whom they design upon , from such Helps , by urging the plainness of their Arguments , which often catch unconsidering Persons . For thy Benefit I have answered every Argument , which my Adversaries offer , setting it first down in their own Words . So that all the Papist speaks , is the words of their Book , which I have therefore caused to be Printed in a different Letter ; I have been brief in my Answers , yet plain and full ; if any reply be made , I desire it may be done with the same Calmness I have used , and without running from the question ; if any particular be proved Erroneous , I here promise to recant it , for I write not out of Prejudice or Passion , God is Witness ; but a desire to find the Truth ; and I shall receive so much Satisfaction from being better informed , that I shall not be ashamed to learn. My Adversaries profess the same . I beg of them , they would keep to it , I promise nothing but plain Evidence of Truth shall prevail with me , I hope the same of them : that if they find the Motives of their Change weak and frivolous , as I think I have made them appear to be , they will not be ashamed to make ●● better . Since my Answer was finished , there came forth a Treatise , pretending to search into the Grounds of Religion , which is much to the same purpose with that I have here answered , and I don't know any Material passage in it but what thou wilt find resolved here : it is drest up with a little more Art than my Adversaries , and consequently with less Sincerity . One of the great Charges which they draw up against us is , That we follow the Private Spirit ; a word which they make much use of , but I don't know what they mean by it ; if they intend to blame us for expecting the assistance of the Spirit of God , in teaching , and instructing us ; let them prove that God hath not promised it , and we are not to expect it , if they can : but if they mean ( as I suppose ) the believing nothing but what Sence and Reason tells us is from God ; if it be this they call the private Spirit , at the same time they find fault with us , they condemn themselves : for it is no more than what they must necessarily follow in Reading their Councils , Catechisms , and Fathers , or in hearing their Preachers ; for we do not use our Reason in the examining the Truth of what God hath said ; but in examining what it is that he hath said ; and let them shew us another way to come to the knowledge of his Will ; and they will do more than their infallible Councils ever thought of . I would willingly take away all occasion of disputing about Words , for which reason I desire thee to take notice , that because I would not puzzle the unlearned Reader with hard Words . I have called several Passages , METAPHORS in the 61st . Query , which are indeed METONYMIES ; but the other term being more generally understood , I chose to use it , which I hope my Adversaries will take notice of , and not wrangle about the Propriety of the Expression , when there is no need of it . I cannot but take notice what wonderful Reverence my Adversaries and their Church , pretend to have for the Fathers ; and yet these Gentlemen , Quer. 73. Charge several of them with Blasphemy : for say they , if you say , Christ descended into the Hell of the Damned , then you Blaspheme , and yet St. Austin ( Ser. 120. de tempore : lib. 12. de Genesi ad litteram c. 33. & Epist . 57. ad Dardan . & Epist. 59. ad Euo-diam diam , and St. Jerome ( Commen . in Zachar. c. 9. verse 11. ) teaches that he descended to the Hell of the Damned , even to the Hell where Dives was punished . So that though the Author of Nubes Testium , P. 208 , 209. censures the Protestants for rejecting the Fathers in some things ; yet we find they only are not to be blamed for it ; for these Gentlemen and the Jesuits who approved their Book , charge them with Blasphemy ; which is a something bolder way of treating them , than what that Author accuses them of , but 't is no unusual thing with them ; for I can make it appear , that there is not one of the Fathers of the first five Ages , nay scarce any of later Date , but are censured and rejected , and accused of Ignorance and Error , by the greatest of the Romanists . I will trespass upon thy Patience no longer , but with my Hearty Prayers to the God of Truth , that he would remove Prejudice from thy Heart , and clearly discover the Truth to thee , as it is in Jesus . I commend thee to God , and rest , Thy Servant , L. E. INTRODUCTION . IF you had not left the State of the Question wholly untouched , and made use of general Terms , without explaining in what Sence you intended to have them understood , when the whole Controversy depended upon the right acceptation , you would have proceeded with greater Candor than I could ever yet find any of your Authors shewed . Thus you make serveral Dilemma's upon the Church , the Visibility and Unity of it , but never tell us what you mean by the Church : But seing you speak of the Church of Christ in general , in your first Dilemma , I suppose you inténded that Church , which is thus defin'd by the Catechism ad Parochos out of St. Austin , ( Par. 1. Pag. 77. Edit . Lug. ann . 1676 ) The Church is the faithful People dispersed throughout the whole World. Now in this Sence , I answer to your DILEMMA's by way of DIALOGUE . PA. 1. God hath a Church in the World , or he hath not . Pro. He hath . Pa. Then yours is the true Church , or it is not . Pro. If by our Church you mean those who in opposition to the Roman are termed the Reformed ; I answer that it doth not follow that they are either the true Church , or not : for they may be and are a part of it , and thus in the name of all Protestants , I affirm we are a part of the true Church . Pa. If yours is the true Christian Church , then it must have these following Marks , Visibility , Unity , Universality , Sanctity . Pro. I told you before we are not the whole , but a part of the true Church , for we dare not , as you do , exclude all from Salvation , who are not in all things of our Profession : and therefore to find whether we be a part of it or no , we are not to look for these Marks , but for the Conformity of our Doctrines with the Word of God ; or if we should allow these for Marks of the true Church , the way to know whether we be part of the true Church or no , is to enquire whether we teach the same Doctrine , which we are to prove by the Holy Scriptures , according to that of St. Austin , ( De Unit. Eccl. c. 16. ) Let them shew whether they have the Church only by the Canonical Books of the divine Scriptures . But we deny these to be the Marks of the true Church . Of Visibility , a Mark of the Church . PA. 2. The House of our Lord shall be prepared on the top of Mountains , or it shall not . Pro. It shall , Isa. 2. 2. Pa. Why then do you deny that the Church shall be always visible ? Pro. Because that Text ( Isai. 2. 2. ) is no Promise of a Perpetual visibility , but only of a time when it shall be so , and so it was in the Primitive times , but it doth not say , it shall never cease to be so visible . Where by visible I mean , that the true Church shall be always in sight , so as by its external Glory to be known to be the true Church : and this that Text doth not promise ; for it will not follow , that because the Church shall be so , therefore it shall be always so ; and if it be not always so , it can be no mark . Pa. 3. A City seated on an Hill can be hid , or not . Pro. It cannot . Pa. Then the Church cannot be invisible . Mat. 5. 14. Pro. That doth not follow : for in the Judgment of divers Fathers , this place is not spoken of the Church , but the Apostles , or the good Works of Christians . But if it be understood of the Church , all that it proves is , that it cannot be hid , as long as it is seated upon an Hill ; but it doth not follow that it shall be always seated there . Pa. 4. Christ either founded a Church on Earth that all Nations may be edified therein , or he did not . Pro. He did . Pa. Why then do you say the Church may be invisible , since all Nations cannot be edified in a Church unseen ? Isai. 2. 2. All Nations shall flow unto her , Psal. 86. 9. All Nations whatsoever thou hast made , shall come and adore before thee . Pro. Because there is no Promise that the Church shall be evident to all Nations at all times , but that there shall come a time when it shall be so : but it doth not say it shall be so always ; but it shall be evident so as to edify all Nations in God's time . Pa. 5. A Man for not hearing the Church , is termed in Scripture an Heathen , and a Publican or not . Pro. He is . Mat. 18. 18. He that will not hear the Church , let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican . Pa. How then shall a Man be termed an Heathen or Publican for not hearing a Church , that was not visible , or yet extant in the World ? Pro. This Text is nothing to the purpose , and that upon two accounts . 1. Because the question is , Whether the true Church be always visible to those who are not Members of it , as Heathens , Infidels , &c. Now this Text speaks only of those who are Members of it ; to these it is always visible , but not to those . 2. Because the question is , whether the Universal Church be always visible ; but this Text speaks of a particular Congregation : and therefore is not to the purpose ; seeing if it proves any Church always visible , it proves every particular Congregation to be so : but as it is plain that these Arguments do not prove that the Church is to be always visible ; so neither do you at all prove that if it were so , it would be a Mark of the true Church , seeing Pagan and Jewish Churches can plead Visibility , and yet it doth not follow they are the true Church , because they have it . Of Unity , as a Mark of the true Church . PA. 6. A natural Unity and Connection of the parts among themselves , and to the Head is necessary for the Conservation of the Body , or it is not . Pro. It is . Pa. If it be , Why is that natural Connection proper to a natural Body , and not a Spiritual Connection proper to a Spiritual Body ? Pro. A Spiritual Connection is proper to a Spiritual Body : but this is nothing to the Purpose , as a proof that Unity is a Mark of the true Church : for this Connection of the Spiritual Body must be an Union and Connection of each part in sound Doctrine ; now we must know what Doctrine is sound , before we can know whether the Parts be united in it . Pa. 7. Christ promised that there should be Unity in his Church , John 10. 16. or he did not . Pro. He did . Pa. If he did , why do you deny Unity ? Pro. We do not deny it , we maintain it : but we deny it to be a Mark of the Church : which it cannot be , seeing this Unity must be either in true Doctrine or in false ; it cannot be in false : if it be in true , we must first know which is true , before we can know whether it be the Unity Christ promised . Pa. 8. Unity is either requisite in Gods Church , or not . Pro. It is . Pa. Why do you then deny the necessity of Unity ? Pro. We do not deny it to be necessary , we maintain that without Unity , in all points of Faith , there can be no Church ; but it will not follow , that because it is necessary , it is a Mark whereby Heathens may know the Church ; seeing other pretended Churches have Unity as well as the Christian : and nothing can be a Mark which is not proper to it alone . Pa. 9. Christ when he Prayed , his Prayer took effect , or it did not . Pro. It did . Pa. If it did , then Christs People are one . Pro. They are so . What then ? but it doth not thence follow that Unity is or can be a Mark to know the Church by . Where pray remember I speak of such a Mark , whereby those who are not of the Church may know her , to be the true Church . Of Universality , as a Mark of the true Church . PA. 10. To be Universal or Coexstent with Time and Place , is a Mark of the true Church , or it is not . Pro. I could wish you would a little explain what you mean by those Terms ; if you mean as Bellarmine and the Catechism ad Parochos , that to be called Universal , is a Mark of the True Church ; or if you intend that to be existent every where , be a Mark of it , I answer it is not . Pa. Why then does the Scripture say , Matth. 28. 20. Go ye teach all Nations , &c. And behold I am with you even to the Consummation of the World. And again , Ephes. 4. 12. He gave some Apostles , &c. to the Consummation of the Saints ? Pro. The Scripture says so , because under the Gospel the Church was not limited to the Nation of the Jews , but all Nations might be Members of it : and there should be a Church to the end of the World ; but it doth not therefore say this Church should be in all Nations , at all times , much less doth it say that its being so is a Mark that it is the True Church . Besides that Text of St. Paul , Ephes. 4. 12 , 13. is spoken of the perfection of the Saints in Holiness , not of the consummating their Number , tho' if it were , it says nothing of the Name Universal , or the Churches existing every where , being a Mark to know it by . Pa. 11. The Church of God is either Universal , or coexistent with all time , or not . Pro. It is . John 14 , 15 , 16. The Comforter shall abide with you for ever . Luke 1. 33. He shall Reign in the House of Jacob for ever , and of his Kingdom there shall be no end . Pa. If it be , why do you deny Universality ? Pro. Before you took Universality in one Sense , now in another , That the Church shall abide for ever ; and this Universality we do not deny ; but we deny it to be a Mark of the true Church , and that for this Reason , because it cannot be known what Church shall endure for ever , till the end of all things ; matter of Future Duration being impossible to be known , till the time is finished ; for how can you know before-hand what will endure for ever ? the true Church will endure for ever ; but you must first know which of all the Pretenders to it is the true , before you can know which shall endure for ever . This therefore cannot be a Mark of the true Church . For the Marks of a thing are always present , but this Duration is not present , but to come , and therefore cannot be a Mark. Pa. 12. Christ's Church is Universal or co-existent with all places , or it is not . Pro. You seem here to mean that Christ's Church is dispersed over all the World , in all places ; and if so , I say it is not . Pa. How then can it be true , that their sound went over all the Earth , or kow can all Nations be taught ? Pro. All Nations shall be taught ; but there is no necessity that they should be so at all times ; or that the Church should be always dispersed in all Nations ; So that this can be no Mark , because a Mark must be always evident , but it was not evident in the beginning of Christianity , nor is not now in many places . Pa. 13. The Church of Christ is either Universal or Catholick , or it is not . Pro. What mean you by its being Universal , or Catholick ? If you mean as we do in the Creed , that it comprehends all the true Professors of the Gospel , I say it is . Pa. Why then do you renounce Universality ? Pro. We do not renounce it , we only say it is no Mark : for seeing the Catholick Church , is that Church which comprehends all true Christians , we must first know who are true Christians , before we can know , what Church comprehends them . Of Sanctity , as a Mark of the true Church . Pa. 14. The Church of Christ is eminent for Sanctity of Discipline and Dectrine , or it is not . Pro. It is . Pa. Why then do you deny Sanctity in the Church ? Pro. We do not deny it , we affirm it , that is , Holiness and Purity of Doctrine , to be the mark of the true Church : and we desire it may be tryed whether we are not of the true Church by that Rule . Pa. 15. The Church of Christ is either Sanctified , or She is not . Pro. The Church of the Elect is Sanctified , but the Church of visible Professors is not ; yet the Doctrine of it is indeed Holy , as to the Foundation , in which respect , we do not deny Sanctity in the Church . Pa. 16. The Church of Christ is manifested to be Holy by the Grace of Miracles , or she is not . Pro. The Grace of Miracles is a new Grace , which I understand not : and I believe , neither do you ; but for the gift of Miracles , I say that is not a Mark of the Sanctity of the Church . Pa. Why then did Christ say , Joh. 14. 12. &c. He that believes in me , the Works that I do he shall do , and greater ? Pro. Christ said so , because he gave the Holy Spirit to his Followers , and a power of working Miracles as long as it was necessary ; but it doth not follow , that it is so always , much less doth it follow , that they are a Mark to know the Holiness of the Church by ; seeing Antichrist is to do miracles , and the Holy Fathers tell us , Hereticks did many , yet their miracles will not prove the Sanctity of their Church . Pa. 17. Christ either granted true Believers the Grace of Casting out Devils , or he did not . Pro. Christ did not grant that Power to all true Believers . Pa. Why then do you belye the Scriptures ? Mar. 16 , 17. Pro. We do not belye them : that Text is not spoken of all , at all times , that do believe : and this you must grant , or else affirm , that none are saved , but them who work Miracles : which is absurd and false . That Power was given in the Beginning of the Church , because it was necessary , but you cannot prove it so now : However we do not deny that God can work miracles by the Hands of his Faithful Servants , when he pleases , but we do deny that they either are , or can be a mark to find the true Church , or its Holiness by : and you cannot prove that God ever intended or promised that they should be so . The true way , to find the Church , is to examine the Holyness , and Purity of its Doctrine , and on this we rest our Cause , that ours is Pure and Holy , and therefore we are of the true Church . Pa. 18. Your Church hath these abovementioned Marks , or she hath not : and if not , she is false . Pro. That doth not follow , for they are not the marks of the true Church , as I have proved ; Holiness indeed is a mark of the true Church , that is , Holiness of Doctrine , and that we affirm we have , which is a sufficient Answer to the rest of your Queries ; however let us hear them . Pa. 19. Your Church hath been apparent or visible , ever since Christ , or it hath not ; and if not , she is false . Pro. Our Church hath been always visible to its Members : though as a distinct Congregation , not to those who were not Members of her , but it is not therefore true , that it is false : for visibility , I have proved not to be a mark of the true Church . Pa. 20. Your Church either did appear before Luther and Calvin , or it did not . Pro. It did . Pa. If she did , in what Kingdom or Nation was your Doctrine Preached , or by whom ? Pro. Our Doctrine was Preached by Christ and his Apostles , and by the ancient Fathers , in all Nations , where-ever the Gospel came , and this we are ready to prove . Pa. 21. Martin Luther and John Calvin were the first Founders of your Church , or they were not . Pro. They were not . Pa. If not ; produce any that ever professed ' the same Articles with you before them . Pro. We do produce Christ and his Apostles with the general Consent of the Fathers for the first five Hundred Years after Christ ; and even when the Church was hid in Babylon , and fled into the Wilderness , from the Tyranny of Antichrist , there were Multiiudes who professed the same as we do . Pa. 22. Luther and Calvin either separated themselves from the World , or they did not ; if they did , then they departed from the visible Christiàn Religion . Pro. I never heard before , that to depart from the World , which is the Duty of every good Christian , was to depart from the Christian Religion : it was always accounted a Cleaving to it ; but I suppose you mean , they departed from the Church , or they did not , and then I answer , they did not ; they departed not from the Christian Church , nay , not from the Roman Church ; but only from the errors of it : for we still profess a Communion with all the Orthodox , living in the Communion of that Church ; nay at that time the Church was visible in the Waldenses , &c. from whom they separated not : so that they departed not from the visible Church , though if they had , they had done no more than what the People of God are commanded to do , in obedience to that Call , Rev. 18. 4. Come out of Babylon , my People . Pa. If they did not , who joyned with them , or to whom did they adhere ? Pro. All who obeyed that Call of God , whose Eyes God opened to see , and whose Hearts he encouraged to leave those Corruptions they lived under : all these joined with them : and for the other question , To whom did they adhere ? I answer , they adhered to Christ and his Apostles , and the triumphant Church in Heaven , to the Doctrine of the ancient Fathers , and to all those who had shaken off the Corruptions of Rome : Who were at that time in Bohemia , Germany , Piedmont , France , England , &c. many Thousands ; they adhered likewise to the Eastern Churches who never acknowledged the Pope , nor were polluted with the Corruptions of Rome . Lastly , they adhered to all who lived in the Communion of Rome , and were not tainted with the Corruptions of it . Pa. 23. Your Church either hath Unity , or it hath not . Pro. It hath . Pa. Why then are there so many Sects and Schisms among you ? Pro. There are none who differ in essential Points : In which Unity of Doctrine consists : as for those Sects who do differ in essentials , they are none of our Church , but the Spawn of Yours , as we can prove . Pa. 24. All your Reformers did either agree in matters of Faith , or they did not . Pro. They did : All those who we own to be of our Church , did . Pa. Why did they so much differ in essential Points ? Pro. They did not differ in any Essential Points . Pa. 25. Luther and Calvin were either true Reformers , or they were not : If not , then you follow false Reformers . Pro. They were true Reformers . But if they were not , you can bring no Argument against us , for we follow them no f●●●ther than they followed Christ. Pa. If they were , why did they differ in the most essential Point of the Holy Sacrament ? Pro. They do not differ in an essential Point ; their difference there , is not Essential , they both agree that Christ is Present , but for the manner of his Presence , it is no essential Point . Pa. But they differ in the Government of the Church . Pro. They do not differ in any essential Matter in that Point , even according to your own Principles . Pa. 26. All your Reformations either do agree , or they do not . Pro. All our Reformations do agree in essential Points ; as for others , who call themselves Reformers , but are not , we have nothing to say to them . Pa. If they do produce any two that agree in all Points . Pro. All of them agree in all necessary Points , and I challenge you to produce any differences in such Points among us ; the difference we have about lesser questions , are greater among you than us . Pa. 27. Your Church either is Universal , or it is not ? Pro. I have proved that Universality is no mark of the true Church ; and therefore the question is impertinent : we do not say we are the Catholick Church , but a part of it , and this we are ready to prove ; but it is not necessary to shew any of our Preachers in Japonia , &c. For the same question might be put to the Christian Church in the ancient times , before many Nations were converted : and to your Church it self , at the first discovery of America ; shew one of your Preachers in those Countries . Pa. 28. Your Church hath either converted Nations , or she hath not . Pro. She hath . Pa. If she hath , shew one Nation that she hath ever converted . Pro. All Nations converted by the Apostles , and Primitive Christians , or by the true Church in any Age , were converted by that Church , of which we are a part : New-England , and many other Parts of the West-Indies , with several Places in the East , have in particular been Converted by the Protestants . Pa. 29. Your Church either hath been Universal , or it hath not : If not , She is not the true Church . Pro. I told you before , we are only a part of the true Church ; and for the question , Whether it be Universal or not : it hath been as Universal as the true Church hath been ; but I would willingly know what you mean by Universal ; for if you mean in all places , we deny it to be a Mark of the true Church , as I proved before . Pa. What time hath your Church been coexistent before Luther and Calvin ? Pro. I told you just now , our Church was existent in the Apostles , and Primitive times , and ever since , though not so visible as then . If you mean any thing else by the term Coexistent , when you explain it , I will give you a farther Answer ; which is a clear Answer to the next Query , 30. In whatever Place the Apostles and Primitive , and Orthodox Christians were , there was our Church , and this we are ready to prove . Pa. 31. Your Church hath Sanctity , or it hath not . Pro. It hath . Pa. If she hath shew one of yours that ever was Canoniz'd . Pro. That is an impertinent question : How comes Canonization to be a note of the Churches Sanctity ? and where did ever God command it ? So that it cannot be an Evidence of the Churches Sanctity , but is indeed a meer , invention of Men ; but our Sanctity we will prove by the Word of God , because we teach the same Doctrine which that contains . Pa. 32. Luther and Calvin , and the rest of your Reformers , confirmed their Doctrine with Miracles , or they did not . Pro. What if they did not ? Pa. If they did not , they were not true Apostles . Pro. The Doctrine they Preached was not theirs , but that which Christ and his Apostles taught , and confirm'd by Miracles ; so that it needed no more Confirmation : except we had received it upon their Authority , which we did not : We acknowledge they were not Apostles , as the twelve were ; and therefore no need of their working Miracles . Pa. 33. The Signs which Christ said in Scripture , followed your pretended Reformers , or they did not . Pro. All the Signs which Christ said , should always accompany the true Preachers of the Gospel , did follow them . Pa. If they did , shew one Man they dispossessed , or one sick that they restored to Health : for if these Signs did not follow them , they are not true Believers . Pro. That doth not follow , for Christ never made that a Sign of True Believers ; nay , you must confess that many never worked any of these Miracles , who are yet true Believers . If indeed they had Preached any new Doctrine , you might call for Miracles , but seeing they Preached none new , but the Doctrine that was taught by Christ , his Apostles , and the Ancient Fathers , there is no need to confirm that by Miracles , seeing all the Miracles Christ , and his Apostles wrought , were for that end . However we can shew many certain instances of Mens being dispossessed , by the Prayers of the Faithful in our Church ; and many among us who have had their Health restored them in answer to their own and the Churches Prayers : but for all that we have better grounds for our Faith , which we rest upon . Pa. 34. Your Reformers were either famous for their virtuous Lives , or they were not . Pro. They were . Pa. If they were ; why did they break their Vows made to God , and teach Men so to do ? Pro. The Vows which they broke , were unlawful Vows , and your own Canons expresly say , that an unlawful Vow ought to be broken : ( C. 22. qu. 4. c. in malis . ) by breaking then their Vow of single Life , that is , by repenting of it , and not observing it , they did no more than what they were in duty bound to do : and therefore were holy Men for all that ? Pa. 35. The Catholick Roman Church and no other stands firm and infallible , against all the Tempests of Apostasie , Heresy and Schism . Pro. The Roman Church is not firm nor infallible , but as to the visible part of it , is fallen both by Apostasie , Heresy , and Schism . Pa. 36. The Romans had once the true Church , or they had not . Pro. The question is Ambiguous ; if you mean by it that the Roman Church was the true Church , as the Mother of all other , I deny it : if you mean that the Roman Church was a true Church , and had the true Faith ; I answer that she had the true Faith. Pa. If the Romans had the true Faith , they retain the same still infallibly , or do not . Pro. They do not . Pa. 37. If they do not , then they must have their fall , either by Apostasie , Heresie , or Schism . Pro. She hath fallen by them all . Pa. The Ancient , Apostolick , Catholick , Roman Church , fell by Apostasie , or it did not . Pro. The Ancient , Apostolick , Catholick Church , fell not at all : Nay the Ancient Roman Church fell not : but the present Roman Church is fallen . Pa. If she is fallen by Apostasie , what prudent man will say that she ever renounced the sweet Name of Jesus , which she ever hath in so great Veneration ? Pro. She may have fallen by Apostasie , and yet not , have renounced the Name of Jesus , so that her having it in so great Veneration , is no Argument that she is not fallen by Apostasie . Pa. 38. The Roman Church fell by Heresie , or she did not . Pro. She did . Pa. If she did , by what General Council was she ever Condemn'd ? which of the Fathers ever wrote against her ? Or by what Authority was she otherwise reprov'd ? Pro. If nothing be an Heresy but what a General Council condemns , then those Heresies which sprang up in the first three hundred years , were wrongfully esteemed such in those times , seeing there was then no General Council : If a Doctrine may be Heretical which was never Condemned by a general Council , then the Dostrines of the Church of Rome may be Heretical , though never Condemned by a General Council , so that question doth not vindicate her from being guilty of Heresie . Pa. But , which of the Fathers ever wrote against her ? Pro. All the Ancient Fathers disclaim those Doctrines which the Roman Church now holds : but they could not write purposely against her , because she did not then profess those Doctrines . But if it be a good Argument , the Church of Rome fell not into Heresy , because no Father wrote purposely against her ; then the same Argument will vindicate us , seeing no Father hath writ against us : but if no Father had writ against the Church of Rome , she might be Heretical for all that , so that this question and the former are both impertinent . Pa. But by what Authority was she reproved ? Pro. By the Authority of the Scriptures , by the Authority of the Testimony of the Antient Church , and the Authority of right Reason . Pa. 39. The Ancient Roman Church fell by Schism , and by dividing herself from some other Church , or she did not . Pro. She did . Pa. If she did , whose company did she leave ? from what Body did she go forth ? Where was the true Church she forsook ? Pro. She forsook the Primitive Church , the Eastern Church , and all those Christians who always maintained their Freedom from the Roman Yoke . Pa. 40. The true Holy Apostolick Catholick Church is fallible , and can err , or it cannot . Pro. Remember by the Church I mean the Faithful throughout the World , and of these I say , they all cannot err in any point of Faith. Pa. Why do you then falsly condemn her ? Pro. We do not condemn her , we are part of her , but for the Roman Church , we condemn her . Pa. 41. The Church of God is infallible in all her Proposals , and Definitions of Faith , or she is not . Pro. All Definitions made by the whole Church of Christ , are infallibly true . Pa. If she be , why do you deny infallibility ? Pro. The Infallibility we deny , is that of a Pope or Council ; and this we deny , because they are not the whole Church , and therefore though the Church of Christ be infallible , yet they are not . Pa. 42. Christ being the Head of the Church , and the Holy Ghost the Soul of the Church , guiding and directing the Church in all Truth ; she can err , or she cannot . Pro. She cannot . Pa. Then she is not fallible . Pro. The Church of Christ is not fallible ; but the Roman Church is . 43. Christ is either a true Prophet , or he is not . Pro. He is . Pa. If he be , how then can the Gates of Hell prevail against the Church ? Seeing he prophesied in St. Matt. 16. 18. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her . Pro. The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church , nor never shall ; that is , they shall not prevail against the whole Church , but against any particular Church , as the Church of Rome , they may and have prevailed . But here , as in the rest of your Queries , you beg the question , supposing the Church of Rome to be the only Church of Christ. Pa. 44. The Holy Ghost suggesteth all truth to the Church , or it doth not . Pro. It doth . Pa. If it doth , then it will suggest no Errors . Pro. It will not : But that doth not hinder , but it may permit Satan to suggest Errors to a particular Church : this you will allow ; and therefore to the Church of Rome , which is but a particular Church . Pa. 45. Christ was a wise Man , or he was not . Pro. He was . Pa. Why then did he build his House upon the Sand , and make it subject to the infernal Tempests . Pro. He did not build his House upon the Sand , nor did he make it subject , that is , he did not subject it to the infernal Tempests ; but he made it liable to them , yet still he defeats their force : and though he suffers them to overthrow some outer parts of it , yet the House it self shall never be overthrown . Pa. 46. A Congregation of People in dispising Christ , are guilty of Apostasie , or they are not . Pro. If they were People that professed Christ before , then they are guilty of Apostasie in despising him ; but not else : if they never Professed Christ , they are guilty of horrible Sin , but not of Apostasie . Pa. If they be , how can you clear your selves of Apostasie in despising his Church ? seeing it is said in Scripture , Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you , heareth me , &c. Pro. We do not despise the Church : it is you despise her , by teaching so many things contrary to her Doctrine , as we are ready to prove . Pa. 47. Your Church is guilty of Heresie , or she is not . Pro. She is not . Pa. If not , how doth the Definition of Heresie agree with you , in adhering to so many singular and private Opinions , and Errors of Faith , contrary to the general approved Doctrine of the Catholick Church . Pro. It doth not agree at all to us ; we teach no such private and singular Opinions ; the Doctrines we teach , are the received Doctrines of the Catholick Church ; but it agrees very well to you , whose Doctrines wherein we dissent from you , are such private and singular Opinions , and contrary to the received Doctrine of the Catholick Church ; and this we will at any time prove . Pa. 48. Your Church is guilty of Schism , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. How then doth the Definition of Schism agree with you , in dividing your selves from the Body of all Faithful Christians , and in breaking Communion with the Antient , Apostolick , Catholick , Roman Church ? Pro. It doth not agree to us : we made no such Division , we indeed divided our selves from the corrupt Roman Church , but we never divided from the Ancient Apostolick Church , but you did , and this I am ready to make good ; See here again you beg the question , and suppose the Roman Church the only Church of Christ , which is the point in Controversie , and you can never prove . Pa. 49. That Church to which Apostasie , Heresy , and Schism agree , is a false Church , or she is not . Pro. She is . Pa. Then your Church is a false Church , seeing they so aptly agree with her . Pro. They do not agree with her , but rather with you , as I have proved . Therefore she is no false Church . Pa. 50. All that which the Ancient holy Catholick Roman Church holds as Articles of Faith , is pious , good , and lawful . Pro. All that the Ancient holy Catholick Church held , is pious , good , and lawful , and so is all that the Ancient holy Roman Church held , for she held nothing but what the Catholick Church held , but all that the present Roman Church holds , is not pious , good , and lawful . Pa. I prove it is out of holy Writ ; and by common Sense and Reason . Pro. Both holy Writ , and common Sense and Reason are against you , but go on . Of the Popes Supremacy . PA. 51. The Foundation of the Church of God , next after Christ was builded upon St. Peter , or it was not . Pro. It was no more builded on St. Peter , than upon the other Apostles . Pa. Why then doth the Scripture say , Mat. 16. 18. Thou art Peter , and upon this Rock will I build my Church ? Pro. Christ says not there , that he will build his Church upon the Person of Peter , but upon the Confession that he had before made , vers . 16. Thou art Christ the Son of the Living God , which is the Foundation of the Christian Religion ; so St. Austin explains it ( Aug. trac . 10. in 1 John ) What means this ( saith he ) vpon this Rock will I build my Church ? Upon that Faith , upon that which is said , Thou art the Christ : seeing then Christ did not build his Church on Peter more than the other Apostles , we with good reason deny his Supremacy . Pa. 52. Christ did prefer Peter before the other Apostles , or he did not . Pro. He did not give Peter any Preference of Order , or Power more than to the other Apostles . Pa. If he did not , why did he say to Peter only , John 21. 16 , 17 , 18 , feed my Lambs , feed my Sheep ? Pro. He did not say it to Peter only , St. Austin tells us , ( Aug. de ago . Christ. c. 30. ) when it is said unto Peter , Feed my Sheep , it is said unto all , and St. Amb. ( Lib. de Sacerd. ) which Sheep , and Flock , St. Peter did not receive alone , but we all received them with him . Seeing then here was no Prerogative given to Peter , but what the rest of the Apostles , and all Pastors received , we have good reason to deny his Supremacy . Pa. 53. The Apostles were of equal Authority , or they were not . Pro. They were . Pa. If they were , why have you Primates , Archbishops , Bishops , and no equal Authority as they had ? Pro. The Question is impertinent , all Archbishops are of equal Authority in their own Provinces ? All Bishops are of equal Authority in their respective Dioceses : So that we have an equal Authority . But as Bishops were under the Apostles , and Presbyters under them , so we have the same degrees , but for the Office of an Apostle , that is ; no longer in the Church . Pa. 54. To whom the chief Charge of feeding Christs Sheep was given , he was chief of the Apostles , or he was not . Pro. He was . Pa. Why then do you deny Peter's Supremacy , to whom the chief charge was committed . Pro. The chief Charge was not committed to him , therefore we deny his Supremacy . And although I acknowledged that , if the chief Charge had been given to any , he had been Chief ; yet seeing it was given to none , as I proved before , there was no chief over the rest . Of Oral Tradition . PA. 55. Oral and Apostolical Tradition , without written Books , either was the means of Planting and Conserving the Christian Religion , or it was not . Pro. It was not . Pa. If not , how did the Apostles propagate the Faith of Christ , without written Books ? Pro. They did not , but in propagating the Faith they always appealed to the Scriptures of the Old Testament ; they indeed taught the Christian Doctrine by word of Mouth , before they committed it to Writing , but that was no Tradition handed from Father to Son , which is the Tradition you plead for . Pa. 56. The number of the Canonical Books are mentioned in Scripture , or they are not . Pro. They are not . Pa. If not , how do you know the Canonical Books , but by Oral Tradition ? Pro. By written Tradition , the Testimony of all Ages , in their Writings . Pa. 57. The Christians of the Primitive Age , on pain of Damnation , held nothing for Faith , but what they had received from Christ and his Apostles for such , or they did not . Pro. They did . Pa. Why then do you deny Tradition ? Pro. We do not deny all Tradition : but we affirm that Tradition is not as the Council of Trent affirms , of equal Authority with the written Word ; but the Primitive Christians received their Faith from Christ , and his Apostles , by means of the Scriptures , not by means of unwritten Tradition . Pa. 58. Apostolical Tradition is the Rule by which we may be infallibly assured ; both what Doctrine Christ and his Apostles taught , and what Books they wrote , or else not . Pro. If you can shew us any Apostolical Tradition , and prove it to be such , we will own it ; but for unwritten Tradition , it is not the Rule . Pa. If not , how otherwise can we be assured ? Pro. What Doctrine Christ taught , we can be assured by the Scriptures ; what Books the Apostles wrote we can be assured by Universal written Tradition , the greatest Historical Evidence ; but not by unwritten . Of the Eucharist . PA. 59. That natural Body and Blood , which Christ offered upon the Cross , for the remission of Sins , it was the same which Christ gave to his Apostles , or it was not . Pro. If you mean that material Body and Blood , it was not . Pa. Why do you then deny that Scripture of St. Luke 22. 19. This is my Body which shall be given for you ? and that Matt. 26. 20. This is the Blood of the New Testament , which shall be shed for many , for the Remission of Sins ? Pro. Why do you falsify the words of St. Luke , and St. Matthew ? their Words are , This is my Body which is given for you ; and This is my Blood which is shed for many , not which shall be , and we deny not the Words of the Evangelists , but we deny the real Presence you assert , because Christ spake here of his real figurative Sacramental Body , not of his real natural . Pa. 60. Christ either gave his Body and Blood to his Apostles at his last Supper , or he did not . Pro. He did . Pa. Why then do you deny the real Presence ? Pro. We do not deny a real Presence ; but a natural Corporal Presence we do ; we affirm Christ to be present really and sacramentally ; but not naturally , in the Body and Blood , on which he hung upon the Cross , according to that of St. Austin ( in Psal. 98. ) You shall not eat that Body which was Crucified , nor drink the Blood which was shed upon the Cross. Pa. 61. When Christ said , This is my Body , did he speak Metaphorically or not ? Pro. He did . Pa. If he did , prove the Metaphor out of Scripture . Pro. So we do , both from the words of the Institution , and the parallel places of Scripture . 1. From the Words of the Institution , This is my Body , either those words are to be understood in a Metaphorical Sense , or they are not ; if not , then they are to be understood in a litteral ; if they are , then they are a Metaphor . If they are to be understood in a litteral Sense then they are either true in that Sense or they are not : If they are not , then Christ was a Lyar , which is Blasphemy ; if they are true in a litteral Sense , then the Bread is Christs Body , or it is not ; if it is not , then those words , This is my Body , are false ; if it be , then an Impossibility is true , for your own Authors confess that it is impossible that the Bread should be the Body of Christ litterally ; ( Gra. de Consec . dist . 2. c. 55 ) But an Impossibility cannot be true , therefore the Bread is not Christs real Body . If it be not Christs real Body , they cannot be taken in a litteral Sense therefore they must be taken in a Metaphorical . 2. From the Parallel places of Scripture , when Christ , says , I am a Vine , it is a Metaphor ; when he says , I am a Door , it is a Metaphor ; when he says , I am a way , it is a Metaphor , when he says , this is the Cup of the New Testament , it is a Metaphor : These are parallel Places of Scripture , all Metaphors ; therefore This is my Body , is a Metaphor too . According to Theodoret. ( Dial. immutab . ) he who called himself a Viae , called the Sign his Blood. Pa. 62. The blessed Body of Christ not being contained in the Bread , can be eaten , or it cannot . Pro. That Body , which is not contained there , viz. His Natural Body , cannot be eaten ; but his Sacramental Body which is Spiritually there , may ; therefore we do not maintain that we eat the Body which is not contained in the Bread ; but that which is therewith given to the Faithful we do eat . Pa. Doth it not imply a great contradiction , seeing you hold , the Body is eaten in the Eucharist , and not eaten in the Eucharist . Pro. No. We do not say his Body is not eaten : we affirm it is , but not Carnally , but Spiritually ; so that it is eaten by the Faithful , not eaten by the unworthy receiver ; to maintain ( as you do ) that it is eaten and not eaten , at the same time by the same person , would be a contradiction ; but it is none to affirm that it is eaten by the worthy , and not eaten by the unworthy receiver . Of Liturgy in an unknown Tongue . PA. 63. That which the Apostles practised , is either lawful for us to practise , or it is not . Pro. Every thing they practised is not lawful for us to practise , for some things they did , which their Extraordinary Office warranted , which is not Lawful for us to do ; but every thing they practised as private Christians , is lawful for us to practise . Pa. If it be , why do you deny the Lawfulness of the Liturgy in an unknown Tongue , seeing the Apostles had their publick Liturgies , in Greek , Syriack , and Latin. Pro. We do not deny the Lawfulness of Liturgies in any Tongue , but we deny the Lawfulness of using them among , and imposing them upon a People , who understand not the Language they are in . And though I deny the Liturgies you speak of , to have been extant in the times of the Apostles ; yet if they were , they never used a Greek Liturcy among the Latins , but among the Greeks , these several Liturgies being for the several Nations whose Language they were pen'd in . Pa. 64. Seeing God hath commanded nothing concerning the Language of the publick Liturgy , we ought either to follow the Commands of the Church , or we ought not . Pro. God hath commanded already , that the publick Service should be in a known Tongue , and not in an unknown ; so that you suppose what is not true ; the whole fourteenth Chapter of 1 Cor. forbids Prayer , or Preaching in an unknown Tongue ? Pa. Why do you deny the Liturgy in an unknown Tongue , seeing the Church commands it ? Pro. The Church doth not command it : the Roman Church indeed doth , but that is not the Church ; we deny it therefore , because it crosses the ends of Prayer , which is Edification , and because God hath forbid it in the forecited place . Pa. 65. The Man that prays and gives thanks in an unknown Tongue , either doth well , or he doth not . Pro. He that gives thanks or prays in a Tongue unknown to himself , doth not well : and he that publickly prays , and gives thanks in a Tongue unknown to his Auditors , doth not well . Pa. Why do you condemn that place of Scripture , 1 Cor. 14. 17. Thou indeed givest thanks well , but the other is not edified ? Pro. We do not condemn that place . The Apostle there speaks of the matter of such a person's Thanksgiving , which he says may be good ; but at the same time he condemns the manner , the doing it in an unknown Tongue , because others are not edified ; and he commands , vers . 26. that all things be done to edifying . This then being a Breach of that Command , is not lawful ; the Apostle says , he may give thanks well for the matter , but not in a right manner , seeing the other is not edified : For which reason we condemn the use of a Liturgy in an unknown Tongue . Pa. 66. That which is praised in Scripture , and proved to be pleasing unto God , is either lawful and expedient for us to prastise , or it is not . Pro. That which is proved to be pleasing to God for us to do , is lawful . Pa. Why then do you deny the Liturgy in an unknown Tongue ? seeing the Apostle says , 1 Cor. 14. 2. He that speaketh with Tongues , speaketh not to men , but God ; and vers . 14. If I pray with Tongues , my Spirit prayeth , but my Understanding is unfruitful ; and vers . 30. to speak with Tongues forbid not . Pro. For God's sake , Sir , consider how strangely you argue , this is the very reason why we Condemn publick Prayer in an unknown Tongue , because it is not to Edification ; and because the Understanding is unfruitful , and we ought to pray with Understanding , 1 Cor. 14. 15. the Apostle here in vers . 30. commends speaking with Tongues , and so do we , but it is one thing to speak with Tongues , and another to speak in an unknown Tongue ; it is not unlawful to speak to , or Pray with the People in Greek and Hebrew , if they understand it , or I , or any other , interpret it to them . But to speak or pray in a Tongue , they do not understand , without interpreting what I say ; is expresly forbid by the Apostle , 1 Cor. 14. 27 , 28. If any Man speak in an unknown Tongue , let one interpret ; but if there be no Interpreter , let him keep silence in the Church . Thus Prayers in an unknown Tongue , are so far from being recommended , that they are expresly forbidden ; therefore we reject them . Of Confession and Absolution . PA. 67. The Apostles being made Spiritual Judges by our Lord , had power from him , to bind and loose from Sin , or they had not . Pro. They had no power to bind and loose from the Guilt of Sin ; but a power of binding and loosing they had . Pa. Why then do you reject Absolution ? Pro. We do not reject it , but the Absolution of the Church of Rome we do , which pretends to more than Christ ever gave : and we also deny that it is a Sacrament as Baptism , and the Lord's Supper are . Pa. 68. The Laity are obliged to disclose their Faults to their Judges , or they are not . Pro. If by their Judges you mean their Ministers , they are not their Judges : and they are not obliged to disclose all their faults to them . Pa. If not , how can they absolve them from what they know not . Pro. Absolution is either general or particular ; the general is sufficient , except in particular grievous Sins which trouble the Conscience , for these we enjoyn a particular Absolution : but for the general , it is sufficient for the Ministers to know in general that they are Sinners , and see that they profess to be Penitent . Pa. 69. Christ in speaking these words , whose Sins ye forgive , &c. John 20. 24. spoke true or false . Pro. He spoke true . Pa. Why then do you deny the power of Absolution ? Pro. We do not deny the power : but we condemn your abuse of it . Pa. 70. That which the Scripture commands , either is necessary , or it is not . Pro. Whatever the Scripture commands as our Duty , is necessary . Pa. Why then do you deny that of St. James 5. 16. Confess your faults one to another . Pro. We do not deny it , but we say it doth not prove the necessity of Confession to a Priest , it speaks of confessing one to another , to our Brethren ; therefore by no means proves Confession of all our Sins to a Priest , necessary to Salvation . We condemn not the use of Confession , but the making it necessary to Salvation , and part of a Sacrament . Of Purgatory . PA. 71. There either is a Penal Prison or Place of temporal Punishment and Payment after this Life , or there is not ? Pro. There is not . Pa. Why then do you falsify that Scripture , Zach. 9. 11. Thou also in the Blood of thy Covenant ; hast set forth thy Prisoners out of the Pit , wherein there is no Water ? Pro. We do not falsify it ; but you do ; it is not Thou in the Blood of thy Covenant , but as for thee in the Blood of thy Covenant , ( or whose Covenant is by Blood ) I have sent forth thy Prisoners out of the Pit , wherein there was no Water : and it speaks not a word of Purgatory , but of the Deliverance of the Israelites , and the Redemption by the Messiah . Pa. Why do you falsify that Text. Mal. 3. 3. He shall purify the Sons of Levi. Pro. We do not falsify it , but we affirm it proves nothing of Purgatory , but of the Conversion , even of the Priests , by the Gospel of Christ , which we find was fulfilled , Acts 6. 7. Or if it did speak of a Purgatory it speaks only of one , for the Sons of Levi ; and therefore says nothing of such , a third Place as you maintain . Pa. But you falsify that Text , 1 Cor. 3. 15. The work of every Man shall be manifest , and yet he himself shall be saved , yet so as by Fire . Pro. We do not ; but we say it is evident that this whole Text is an allusion to the tryal of Metals by the Fire , and all it says , is this , That he who hath held firm the Foundation , if he hath taught any vain ungrounded Doctrins ; yet , if in the main he be found sincere , he shall be saved , but as one that scapeth out of the Fire : and therefore speaks nothing of a Place of Purification , after this Life , much less of a place of temporal Punishment ; for the Apostle doth not say he shall be saved by Fire , but so as by Fire , that is , as one that hath escaped the Fire , with much Difficulty . Pa. But why do you falsify that Text. Mat. 5. 25. Be at an agreement with the Adversary quickly , &c. Pro. We do not falsify it ; our Saviour speaks there of the Prison of Hell , and of no other ; therefore we say there is no ground for Purgatory in this Place , therefore we deny it . Pa. 72. Those Souls which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles , raised from Death , were either in Heaven or Hell , or they were not : If not , why then do you deny a third Place . Pro. I might very well except against this loose and idle way of arguing , from such unknown Points ; but I wave it , and tell you it was not necessary they should be either in Heaven or Hell. Pa. Then they must be in a third Place . Pro. 'T is true , but you cannot argue that because on such an extraordinary occasion God kept them in a third Place for a time ; therefore there is a third Place for all to go to ; but if we should grant that , there is no Consequence from hence that will prove that place a place of Punishment and Purification , if there were a third Place destined to Souls , ( which we deny ) yet it doth not thence follow , it must be a Purgatory . Pa. 73. Christ's descensiou either was into the Hell of the Damned , or it was not . Pro. What if it was ? Pa. Then you Blaspheme . Pro. I deny that Christ might go down there to triumph over the Powers of Darkness upon their own Ground ; or for several other reasons . Pa. But if it was not into the Hell of the Damned , it was into a third Place . Pro. What then ? was it therefore into Purgatory : suppose that Expression , he descended into Hell be meant only of the grave , or the State of the Dead , as Sheol in Hebrew , and Hades in Greek signify : what is that to Purgatory ? I still affirm therefore with St. Austin ( Ser. 232. ) Let no Man deceive himself , for there are two Places , and there is no third ; he that deserves not to reign with Christ , shall without doubt perish with the Devil . Pa. 74. When Christ Preached to the Souls in Prison 1 Pet. 3. 19. It was either to the damned , or it was not . Pro. We are no where told that Christ went and Preached unto the Damned in Hell , or any Spirits in a separate State. That which the Apostle says , is , That there are many Spirits now in Prison , to whom Christ once Preached by his Spirit in the Ministry of Noah : So this speaking nothing , as appears from v. 20. of Christ's Preaching to Spirits already in Prison , you can draw no Argument from thence . Of Venial and Mortal Sins . PA. 75. All kinds of Sin , either rob the Soul of Justice , and make her guilty of Damnation , or they do not . Pro. Guilty of Damnation is an odd Phrase , but all kinds of Sin do make a Soul deserve Damnation , though every Sin doth not rob it of Justice , or Righteousness . Pa. If they do , why then doth Christ make three different sorts of Sin , of which the least makes a Man guilty of Damnation ? Mat. 5. 23. Pro. If the least of them makes a Man guilty of Damnation , ( as you Phrase it ) then every Sin does so : and this overthrows you ; but I believe you mistake your own meaning . However you beg the question , for Christ doth not there make three different kinds of Sin , but speaks of the different degrees of Punishments , alluding to the Punishments among the Jews . Pa. 76. All Sins are either Mortal , and sufficient to break Charity betwixt God and Man , or they are not . Pro. In their own Nature all Sins are Mortal . Pa. If they be , then the Apostles themselves are not in the Charity of God , seeing it is said in St. James 3. 2. We all offend in many things . Pro. 'T is true , the Apostles themselves had not been in the Charity of God upon that account , if the Grace of Christ had not been stronger than the guilt of those Sins : so that we do not deny , but there are Sins , which we call Sins of humane Infirmity , which in a regenerate Person are but venial , because the Grace of Christ forgives them , though in their own Nature they are mortal . Pa. 77. All idle Words either are mortal Sins , or they are not . Pro. All idle sinful Words are in their own Nature mortal . Pa. If they be , how can any one hope for Salvation , seeing Man ( morally speaking ) can avoid idle Words ? Pro. By the grace of Christ , pardoning those unabidable Imperfections . Pa. 78. All Sins are even unto Death , or they are ●ot . Pro. If by that Expression you mean deserving Death , ●hey are . Pa. Then you make Christ a Lyar , who said , There is Sin unto Death , and a Sin not unto Death . Pro. It was not Christ but St. John who said so , 1 Jo. 16. But he there speaks not of a Sin which barely deserves ●eath , but of that Sin , which , whosoever commits it , shall ●ertainly dye Eternally , that is , the Sin against the Holy Ghost ; he doth not say there is a Sin not deserving Death , ●ut there is a Sin , not unto Death , by which as appears by v. 18. ; he means those Sins of daily Incursion in the Regenerate , which though they deserve Death , yet they do not bring it ; because the Grace of Christ covers and forgives them . Of Invocation of Angels and Saints . PA. 79. The Enjoyment of God , Angels , Saints , and the Glory of Heaven , either robs Men of their Knowledge , or it doth not . Pro. It doth not . Pa. If not , why do you deny the Prophets now in Heaven can know things at a distance , as well as they did on Earth ? Pro. We deny not but God may reveal things to them in an extraordinary manner , as well as when they were on Earth ; but as his revealing some things to them on Earth , did not prove they knew all things ; so neither will it prove they know all things now : that Knowledge then , while here , being only particular and extraordinary , they are not rob'd of , if they have it not ; but if they have it , what is that to praying to them ? Pa. 80. The damned Spirits of Hell either know mor● than the Blessed Souls , in the Glory of the Father , or they do not . Pro. They do not . Pa. If not , why do you acknowledge the Devils to understand our most secret Thoughts and Prayers , and not th● Saints and Angels also ? Pro. We do not acknowledge that the Devils understand our thoughts , we say , it is Blasphemy , to assert it . For God only knows the Thoughts : but we do affirm the Devils who are always about us , do know what we speak and act ; but the Saints are at a distance from us , and therefore cannot ; and the Angels ( if the Opinion of every Persons , having one for a Guardian , be true ) may possibly know the actions of those whom they are Guardians to , but this proves no knowledge of the Thoughts , nor , if they did know them , is there any Reason we should pray to them . Pa. 81. The Angels of God have prayed for those on Earth , or they have not . Pro. They have not . Pa. Why then do you not agree with us , that Angels pray for us ? Pro. We do agree with you that they pray for us , but what is that to our Praying to them ? Pa. 82. It is either Lawful to pray to the Angels , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. If not , why do you accuse Jacob of an Error , in invocating the Angel to bless his Children ? Gen. 48 16. Pro. Jacob did not there invocate any created Angel , but the Angel of the Covenant , the Lord Jesus Christ. So saith St. Athanasius , ( orat . 4. in Arrian . ) the Patriarch Jacob in his Prayer joined none with God , but him only who is the Word , whom he calls Angel ; so that we do not condemn him of an Error . Pa. Why do you condemn this Text , Job . 5. 1. Call therefore , and turn to thee some of the Saints . Pro. We do not condemn that Text , but we may justly condemn you for alledging it after such a manner , and to such a purpose : the Words are , Call now if there be any that will answer thee , and to which of the Saints wilt thou turn ? whereby Eliphaz upbraids Job , as unworthy of such a Privilege as he had enjoyed in Chap. 4. v. 16. of a Vision to instruct him , but says nothing of Prayer to Saints , or any thing like it . Pa. Why do you condemn that Hos. 12. 4. Jacob prevailed against the Angel , and wept , and prayed to him ? Pro. We do not condemn it : the Prophet there speaks of the Angel which he met in Bethel , Gen. 23. 24. Which Angel was no created Angel , but Christ ; for Gen. 32. 30. Jacob calls him God : now will it follow , that because Jacob worshipped God , therefore we must invocate a Created Angel ? Are these Arguments for Men of Reason to use ? Of the Worshipping of Angels , and Images . PA. 83. When St. John in the Apocalypse 22. 8. fell down to adore before the Feet of the Angel , be knew it either to be lawful , or it was not . Pro. It was not . Pa. Then you accuse the most Wise and Excellent Apostles of gross Ignorance , and wilful Idolatry . Pro. We do not accuse them of gross Ignorance , it was no invincible Ignorance ; for it is plain , St. John took him for Christ , in that the Argument he uses to withhold him is , that he was a Created Spirit , and such an Ignorance St. John was guilty of ; but for wilful Idolatry We do not accuse him , he did not , as you do , worship that which he knew not to be God , but he was about to worship that which he took for God. I wonder how you can alledge this Text in your Favour , which is so clearly against you . Pa. Again , when Lot ador'd the Angels , Gen. 19. 1. with his Face bowed towards the Earth , he either committed Idolatry , or he did not . Pro. You beg the question , Lot did not adore the Angels , the Scripture tells us , he rose np to meet them , and bowed himself with his Face towards the Ground ; which was only a civil Salutation , for he took them only for Men , and therefore could not adore them : So that there is no Argument to be drawn from hence . Pa. 84. All that which is recorded in Holy Writ , to have been done by the known Saints of God without reproof , either is Lawful or it is not . Pro. All that they so did without an extraordinary Call to it , is Lawful ; but there were some things which were peculiarly lawful to them , which is not so to us . Pa. If all things they did ( as their ordinary Duty ) be Lawful , then why do you call it Idolatry to worship Images ? Pro. Because the Saints of God never worshipped them . Pa. Did not John the Baptist , the great Precursor of Christ , worship the very Latchets of our Saviours Shooes ? Pro. This is a pleàsant question , where do you find he ever did ? The Scripture saith no such thing ; he said indeed , he was not worthy to bear them , but he never worshipped them . Prove it if you can . Pa. Why did Jacob worship the top of Joseph's Rod , Heb. 11. 21. Pro. He did not ; there is no text of Scripture that says he did ; that place which you quote , is plainly perverted ; for the words are , He worshipped upon the top of his Staff ; that is , leaning on it ; or that he worshipped leaning towards the Beds Head ; and therefore St. Jerome , whose Translation you profess to follow , ( in his questions upon Genesis , ) rejecteth that Version , which yet you retain : we affirm then still that the Saints of God did not worship Images . Pa. 85. The holy Veneration and Worship of Images have either profited the Jews and Christians , or they have not . Pro. They have not . Pa. How then were the Israelites healed of the biting of the Serpents in the Desarts ? Pro. Not by worshipping any Image , no not the Brazen Serpent ; but by looking on it , thereby exercising their Faith on Christ whom it was a Type of . Pa. How then did the Primitive Christians receive special benefit by venerating the Shadow of St. Peter , and St. Paul ? Acts 5. 15. and 19. 11. Pro. Here again you suppose what is not ; the Shadow of St. Peter healed many , and so did St. Paul , but they did not venerate or worship either their shadow or their Persons . Pa. 86. It is lawful to bow the Knee to Images , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. If not , why doth the Apostle say , at the Name of Jesus every Knee shall bow ? Phil. 2. 8. Which Name is nothing else but an Image of the Hearing . Pro. This is as impertinent an Argument as ever I heard ; the question is about graven visible material Images ; not about Images in the Hearing ; but pray remember St. Paul doth not say , Every Body shall worship that Name : So that it is nothing to your purpose , about visible material Images , or worshipping them . Of the Veneration of Reliques . PA. 87. The Honour and Veneration of the Reliques of Saints , which God himself hath approved by many famous Miracles is good , or it is not . Pro. It is . Pa. Why then do you condemn the Veneration of Reliques ? Pro. Because God hath never approved it either by Miracles or any other way . Pa. 88. That Woman which was miraculously cured of the Bloody-Flux , by only touching the Hem of Christ's Garment , was Cured , either for venerating the Reliques , ●● she was not . Pro. She was not , but for her Faith. Pa. Why then was not she Cured afar off ? Pro. That is nothing to us ; it is sufficient that it was Christs Pleasure to have it as it was , and that he tells us it was by Faith she was Cured , Matt. 9. 22. Daughter ( saith our Saviour ) be of good Comfort , thy Faith hath made thee whole . Pa. 89. The virtue of casting out Devils , and curing the Diseases , consisted in the Napkins and Handkerchiefs , that had but touched the Body of St. Paul , or it did not . Pro. I cannot say that it consisted in them : but it was conveighed by them . Pa. If it was why do you deny the veneration of Reliques . Pro. If I should allow that the virtue of doing those Miracles did really consist in those Napkins , and Handkerchiefs , yet cannot an Argument be deduc'd from hence that we must worship Reliques ; for those Napkins and Handkerchiefs were never Worshipped . Pa. 90. The Bodies of dead Saints have either restored Men to Life , or they have not . Pro. The Bodies have not ; but God by the Bodies hath Pa. If so , then the Reliques of Saints are worthy to be Venerated . Pro. I deny that ; by Moses's Rod , by Elizeus's Mantle , and his Bones , Miracles were wrought , yet those Reliques were never worshipped . Of Free Will. PA. 91. God either left Man to his own Free Wil●… or he did not . Pro. If you speak of the state of Man before the Fal●… I answer , God did leave him to his own Freewill ; but since the Fall , I affirm God hath left Man to his own Fre●… Will , as to moral Actions , but as to Spiritual , he hath no●… So that we do not deny all Free Will , but only in Spiritu●… things . Pa. Why do you falsify that Scripture , Eccl. 15. 14. G●… from the Beginning made Man , and left him in the hand ●● his own Counsel . Prot. That Passage is in Ecclesiasticus , not in the Canonical Scripture , and therefore of no Authority in this Case ; but if it were , it speaks nothing of Free Will to Spiritual actions in Men since the Fall ; but of the Power which Adam had in the Beginning . Pa , 92. The choice of Good and Evil is either left in Mans Free Will , or it is not . Pro. The whole choice of Moral goed and evil is ; but the right acceptable choice of Spiritual good is not . Pa. Why then do you deny that of Josh. 24. Choose you this Day , whom you will serve ? Pro. We do not deny it ; but we say that it is nothing to your purpose : Seeing to chuse Spiritual good or evil is in Man's Power ; but to chuse it aright is not ; that is , to chuse it from a right Principle , and to a right End. Pa. Why do you deny that , Joh. 1. 12. As many as received Christ , to them he gave Power to become the Sons of God. Pro. We do not deny it ; but we say that a right choice of Spiritual good is not in Mans Power , and this is clear from this very Text ; for receiving Christ , follows choosing of him ; but till he gave them more Power than they had before , they could not chuse him so as to become the Sons of God ; therefore they had no Power Naturally to chuse him aright : So that this Text overthows your selves . Pa. 93. Man hath Power either to keep his Virgin , or he hath not . Pro. If you mean by that Expression what the Apostle intends 1 Cor. 7. 37. I answer , he hath . Pa. Why then do you deny Free Will ? Pro. We do not deny Free Will in moral actions , such as this is , where the Apostle is only treating of the Power of Guaraians , or Parents over the Virgins under their Care ; but that which we deny it in , is Spiritual Actions , of which , this is no Instance . Pa. 94. All that God commands , is either in Man's free Power , or it is not . Pro. All that God commands Man to do by his own Power is ; but all that he commands , such as that Precept , Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart , is not . Pa. Then you condemn God of Tyranny , in commanding that which is not in Mans Free Power to do . Pro. That doth not follow ; as long as God will enable him to do that , for which his own free Power is not sufficient , as in the Text you cited just now , Joh. 1. 12. To those , whose own Power was not sufficient , he gave Power to become the Sons of God. Pa. But is not this as if I should threaten my Servant with horrible Death , for not bringing me the Man in the Moon ? Pro. No , for if you did so , you would be unjust and Tyrannical , seeing your Servant could not do it ; neither could you enable him : but God requires nothing but what either Man can do , or God will enable him to perform . Of Faith without Works . PA. 95. Faith working by Charity , either justifies , or it doth not . Pro. Faith , properly speaking , doth not justify ; but by such a Faith we are justified . Pa. If so , then your justifying Faith flies without Wings . Pro. I deny that ; for there is no such a thing as a Justifying Faith without Works : we affirm , that no Faith is true , but that which worketh by Love. Pa. 96. A Man only saying , Lord , Lord , either may be Saved , or he may not . Pro. He may not . Pa. If not , then where is your justifying Faith ? Pro. In the word of God , and the Heart of every true Believer , who shews his Faith by his Works . Pa. 97. You either hope to be saved by believing in God only without Works , or you do not . Pro. We do hope to be justified , and consequently Saved , by Faith in Christ only . Pa. Then the damned Spirits may expect Salvation , seeing they believe and tremble . Pro. That doth not follow : that Faith which the Damned have is but an Historical Faith ; but the Faith by which we are justifyed , is a Faith which purifies the Soul , and is productive of good Works , which the Damned cannot have . We do not then hope to be saved by Faith without Works , but by Faith , and not by Works . Of the Merit of Works . PA. 98. Every Man will be rewarded at the last Day according to his Works or he will not . Pro. He will , Pa. If he will , then good Works will be meritorious , and receive a good Reward . Pro. They will receive a Reward , which they never deserved , but which by the Grace of Christ is purchased for and given to them , but not for any Merit in them ; but by Virtue of his Promise and free Love , not by way , of Debt due to the Works . Pa. 99. Christ either encouraged his Apostles to suffer Afflictions patiently in expectation of a Reward , or he did not . Pro. He did . Pa. Why then were not their Persecutions meritorious and consequently our good Works . Pro. Because the reward is not given to the desert of their Works , which bear Proportion with the greatness of the Reward ; but it comes only from the pure Mercy and Grace of God , and if our good Works give us any Title to that Reward , it is not from themselves but the Promise . Pa. 100. That Crown of Justice which St. Paul said was laid up for himself , was either the Reward of his good Fight , or it was not . Pro. It was . Pa. If it was , how can you deny the Merit of good Works ? Pro. Because that Reward was not merited by his good Fight , but purely given to him , out of Grace . Pa. 101. A Cup of cold Water given in the Name of a Disciple , is either Meritorious , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. Why is it said then , Mat. 10. 42. That he who gives it , shall in no wise lose his Reward ? Pro. He shall not lose the promised Reward : but who at is this to deserving that which free Grace had promised ? Of Holy and Religious Vows . PA. 102. The sacred Vows which are taught us in the Holy Scripture are lawful , or they are not . Pro. They are . Pa. Why then is not a vow lawful to us ? Pro. A Vow is Lawful to us ; we do not deny it , but the question is about some particular Vows , which we say are unlawful . Pa. 103. The greatest Perfection of a Christian Life consists in Evangelical Poverty , or it doth not . Pro. It doth . Pa. Why then do you reject the vow of Poverty as an humane Invention ? Pro. Because God hath no where warranted it , the Evangelical Poverty , which so much perfects a Christian is not to renounce all Worldly goods , but to be poor in Spirit , and to be able in the midst of Plenty to despise the World , and its Riches . Pa. If it be not the greatest Perfection to renounce the World wholly , then why did our Saviour say to the Young-Man , Mat. 19. 21. Sell all that thou hast , and give it to the Poor ? Pro. Our Saviour did not there give a Precept , so to do , only to the Youngman of whom he required it by way of Trial , because he knew his Heart was set upon his Riches . Pa. 104. It either was a vertue in Eunuchs , who gelded themselves for the Kingdom of Heaven , or it was not . Pro. That is according as you take the last Words for the Kingdom of Heavens sake ; if to avoid a present violent Temptation it be done , we must commend it ; but if upon mature deliberation it be done , when they might have recourse to Marriage , it is not well done . Pa. Why do you condemn that of St. Matt. 19. 12. There are some who have made themselves Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heavens sake ? Pro. VVe do not condemn the Text ; but your Exposition of it ; for it is doubtful on what account those our Saviour speaks of there , were Eunuchs , or whether they were so actually , or only in design ; but take it in which Sence you will , we do not find our Saviour commends it ; and it is nothing to that slavish Vow which you require . Pa. He who resolves in his Heart to keep his Virgin , either doth well , or not . 1 Cor. 7. 37. Pro. He doth well . Pa. Why then do you deny the holy Vow of Continency . Pro. VVe condemn that vow which you call Holy , because it is no where warranted in the word of God , that place of the Apostle speaks not of any Vow , but if it did , it speaks not of Personal Continency , but of the Power of a Guardian or Father , in Marrying or not Marrying the Virgins under their Care. Pa. 105. We ought either to obey our Prelates and Superiours , or we ought not . Pro. We ought in all lawful things . Pa. Why then do you reject the vow of Obedience , as a Popish Fiction ? Pro. We do not reject all vows of Obedience , but such as are purely Popish ; and these we condemn because the matter of them is unlawful , not because all Vows of Obedience are so . Pa. Our Saviour in obedience to St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin , either gave us an Example of Obedience , or he did not . Pro. He did , Of Obedience to our Parents . Pa. If he did , then the vow of Obedience is evident to be a pious action by Christs own Example Pro. We do not condemn all vows of Obedience in general , ( though if we had no other reason to allow them , but this Example , we should reject them ; for Christ here made no Vow , and his Obedience was to his Parents , not to superiour degrees in the Church ) but yours we do because of the matter of it , which you must prove to be good , by examining the particulars ; not by such general Arguments as these . Of the Possibility of keeping the Commandments . PA. 106. A Man being assisted by the special Grace of God , can either keep the Commandments of God , or he cannot . Pro. He can . Pa. Why do you then deny the possibility of keeping the Commandments . Pro. We do not deny it , we say it is not only possible ; but necessary that we should keep all the Commandments of God ; but we deny that we can keep them perfectly , that is , that we can arrive to that Degree of Perfection , as to observe them to the highest Pitch , without any defect in the manner of the Observation : this we say , None on this side Heaven can do . Pa. 107. It is either impossible with Man to keep the Commandments or it is not . Pro. To keep them perfectly with a perfection of Degrees is impossible . Pa. Why do you then accuse God of commanding Impossibilities ? Pro. We do not : God commands nothing but what we must perform , we must keep the Commandments perfectly , as to all the parts of them ; but as to the Degrees , by reason of our natural Corruption we cannot do it , but Christ our Surety hath done it for us . Pa. Hearers of the Law only are justified , or they are not . Pro. Bare Hearers are not . Pa. If not , then the fulfilling of the Law is necessary . Pro. That doth not follow : The doing of it is necessary , Rom. 2. 13. But for the fulfilling it as to the degrees of it that is no where required Pa. 108. God according to his Promise , either enabled Man to keep his Commandments , or he did not . Pro. God enables a Man to do whatever he promises to assist him to do . Pa. Why then do you deny in Man the Possibility of keeping the Commandments ? Pro. We only deny the possibility of keeping them perfectly with a Perfection of Degrees , and God hath never promised to enable Man to do it . All his Promises are , that he will enable him to keep them so , as shall please him ; but here is nothing of keeping them perfectly . Pa. 109. It is evident in holy Writ , that some either keep the Commandments , or they do not . Pro. None keep them with such a Perfection as I mentioned . Pa. Why do you belye that of St. John 1. 6. Zacharias and Elizabeth were both just before God , walking in all the Commandments , and were justified without Blame . Pro. That Text is not in St. John , but in St. Luke , 1. 6. and is not as you read it , they were justified without Blame , but they walked in all the Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord , blameless , or without Blame : Now this Text we do not bely , but we desire you to consider that St. Luke only says , they were blameless , not perfect , they were blameless , that is , they were so Holy , that no Person could find fault with them . He had spoken of their Holiness with reference to God before , and he speaks now of their Reputation among Men ; but this is nothing to the keeping the Commandments perfectly , with such a Perfection as we deny . Of the Seven Sacraments . PA. 110. Christ for the Sanctification of Mankind , either instituted seven visible Signs of invisible Graces or he did not . Pro. He did not . Pa. If he did not , answer me to these following Prepositions , viz. Baptism is either a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is . Pa. 111. Then we are agreed in that Point ; but Confirmation is either a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. If not , Why hath it the Visible Sign , viz. Oyl and Balm ? Pro. It hath no such Sign of Christs Institution , which is requisite in a Sacrament , but only of your own Invention . Pa. See Act. 19. 5 , 6. And when Paul had imposed his Hands upon them , the Holy Ghost came upon them . And Acts 8. 14 , 15 , 16. St. Peter and St. John did impose their Hands upon them , and they received the Holy Ghost . Pro. These Texts speak not a word of Oyl , or Balm , practised by the Apostles , but of the laying on of Hands . Your Confirmation therefore is no Sacrament , seeing there is no Warrant of Christ for the outward Sign , nor any Divine Promise to annex an invisible Grace to it . Pa. 112. The Eucharist either is a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is . Pa. Then the Controversy in this Point is ended . But to go on , 113. Penance either is a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. If not , why hath it the visible Sign , viz. The Penitent's Confession , and the Priest's Absolution , of an invisible Grace , which is the remission of Sins ? Pro. There are no such Signs instituted by Christ , for Confession to a Priest is no where commanded as I shew'd before : and Absolution is only a part of Discipline , and therefore can be no part of a Sacrament : besides , here is no outward and visible Sign , which must be in a Sacrament , for the words of Absolution are the form of the Sacrament , according to the Council of Trent , now the outward Sign is never the form of a Sacrament : The matter of this pretended Sacrament being as I shewed no where commanded by Christ , it can be no Sacrament . Pa. 115. Extream Unction either is a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. Why then hath it the visible Sign , the Priests Prayer , ●nd the anointing with Oyl , of an invisible Grace , James 13 , 14 , 15 ? Pro. It hath no Sign of an invisible Grace , St. James ●n that place speaks of it as a means to heal the Sick , but ●hat is no invisible Grace ; therefore it is no Sacrament : Whether that rite be still to be retained is another question , and not to our purpose . Pa. 116. Holy Order either is a Sacrament , or it is not Pro. It is not . Pa. Why then hath it the visible Sign , the words of the Bishop , and the things given to him that is ordained , of an invisible Grace ? according to that , 1 Tim. 4. 14. neglect not the grace that is in thee by Prophecy with imposition of hands of the Priesthood . Pro. It hath no such visible Sign instituted by Christ , which we challenge you to prove ; therefore 't is no Sacrament , and neither is there any Grace given by it , though Gifts are indeed bestowed : So that you have falsifyed that Text of St. Paul , which is not , neglect not the Grace that is in thee , but neglect not the Gift : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , now there is a great difference between a Gift and a Grace . Pa. 117. Matrimony either is a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. If not , why hath it a visible Sign , the mutual consent of both parties , an invisible Grace and Supernatural Conjunction made by Almighty God ? Matt. 19. 6. Eph. 5. 31 , 32. Pro. The mutual consent is no visible Sign , but an invisible Action ; neither is there any Supernatural Grace given by it , for none of those Texts you cite , mentions any such thing : that of Eph. 5. you have fassified , St. Paul says not , it is a Sacrament , but a Mystery , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Pa. 118. A visible Sign of an invisible Grace , Divinely instituted by Christ , either is the true Definition of a Sacrament , or it is not . Pro. It is not . Pa. Then you deny the Definition which your selves attribute to a Sacrament . Pro. You are Mistaken , for that is only a part of the Definition ; we say that a Sacrament must be not only an outward and visible Sign of an inward and Spritual Grace , Ordained by Christ ; but it must also be a means whereby we receive the same , and a pledge to assure us of it : now seeing your pretended Sacraments have neither outward Signs instituted by Christ , nor invisible Graces annexed to them , and conveyed by them , we reject them and assert they are no Sacraments . Pa. 119. Baptism and the Lords Supper is either more evidently said in Scripture , than any of the other five to be Sacraments , or they are not . Pro. The word Sacrament is no where used in Scripture , and therefore Baptism is no where called a Sacrament , nor the Lords Supper : But in Scripture we find the outward and visible Sign of Baptism ordained by Christ ; and the invisible Grace annexed to it , and conveyed by it , and so of the Lords Supper ; but we find no such thing of the other five : now seeing nothing can be a Sacrament but what hath such a Sign with a Grace annexed , and Baptism and the Lords Supper have them ; we say they are Sacraments , and when you shew us the same in Scripture of the rest , we will receive them for such : It is therefore impertinent to ask us where Baptism is called a Sacrament , for we don't contend about a word ; but the question is whether Confirmation , Pennance , Extream Unction , Orders and Marriage be Ordinances of the same Nature with Baptism and the Eucharist : this we deny , and we are sure you cannot prove . APPENDIX . Pa. 120. YOur Church either hath her succession from the Waldenses , &c. or she hath not . Pro. If you mean her Succession of Pastors , She hath not . Pa. If not , then you must have no Succession , unless it be from the Roman Church . Pro. That part of our Church which in opposition to Rome is termed the Reformed , had its Immediate Succession from the Church in communion with Rome . Pa. 121. Luther and Calvin either had their Mission from the Roman Church , or they had not ? Pro. They had . Pa. If they had , the Roman Church either had the Spirit of God when they gave them that Mission , or she had not . Pro. She had the Spirit of God , as much as was necessary for that power of giving them their Mission . Pa. If they had , how could she fall into Errors ? and why did they depart from the Spirit of God ? Pro. They did not depart from the Spirit of God : and that portion of the Spirit which she for that end had in Ordination , is only a power given by the Spirit , and therefore no security from Error , seeing all Hereticks have so much of the Spirit . Pa. Either they had their Mission from God , or they had not . Pro. They had . Pa. If they had , why did not they confirm their Doctrine by Miracles ? Pro. Because Christ and his Apostles had done it before and seeing they preached no new Doctrine , there was no need of them . Pa. 122. Luther and Calvins Doctrine either was manifested to be true by Miracles , or it was not . Pro. It was not by any Miracles wrought by them : but by the Miracles of Christ and his Apostles it was . Pa. If they did no Miracles , then seeing you cannot alledge any Text of sacred Writ to vindicate their Tenets , you must of necessity have recourse to the private Spirit . Pro. Are not you ashamed of such an Argument ? when you know we produce Texts , plain Texts of Scripture for every one of our Doctrines , and we found them upon nothing else ; and for the private Spirit , it is a thing we know not , neither do you know what you mean by it , we renounce any such thing : but the Assistance of the Spirit of God we own and pray for . Pa. 123. The Apostles either had the private Spirit , or they had not . Pro. What you mean by the private Spirit , is best known to your self : But that Assistance of the holy Spirit which we hope for , and God hath promised , they had . Pa. If they had , why then did they call a Council ? Acts 19. Pro. I appeal to your self , whether that is an Argument that they had not even a greater , viz. An infallible Assistance of the Spirit attending every one in particular , which if they had , you cannot deny them the Assistance we plead for . Pa. 24. Your private Spirit either is of God , or it is not . Pro. The Assistance of the holy Spirit promised an● given to every private Man , who seeks it with Humility and Prayers , is of God. Pa. Why then are there so many disagreeing Sects among you ? Pro. There are no disagreeing Sects among us in matters of Faith , in which alone the Assistance of the Holy Spirit is given . Pa. 125. A Man endowed with your private Spirit either can interpret Scripture , or he cannot . Pro. A Man endowed with the Spirit of God ( which in the only assisting Spirit ) can interpret Scripture aright . Pa. If they can , what need have you of Preachers ? Pro. To instruct the ignorant , to convince the erroneous , to stir up the negligent , to excite the slothful , to comfort the Broken-hearted , and Administer the holy Sacraments . Pa. But after all , no Man will believe any thing but what his Spirit suggests unto him . Pro. No Man ought to believe any thing but what the Spirit of God suggests unto him , either by the Scriptures , the Law of Nature , or internal Convictions ; for which he makes use of Ministers as the Means . FINIS . POSTSCRIPT . I Desire the Gentlemen against whom I write , would deal so fairly with me ; as to let me and the World know what Scandals and Calumnies they aim at in their Caution to their Adversaries , and who they are , who they say could never learn to speak or write Truth , and what those sores are which they threaten to rip up ; a few words will explain their meaning , which is there a little dark . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A66243-e300 Qu. 1. 41 5. Qu. 5. 41. 46. 111. Qu. 37 , 40 , 46 , 47 , 50 , &c. Qu. 54. 55. 64. 89. Qu. 66. 93. 95. 96. 97. 102. 103. 104. 117. 84. Qu. 11. You take Universal for being in all Places . Qu. 12. You take it for being existent at all times , &c. Qu. 13. You take it for being called Universal . Notes for div A66243-e2050 Acts 16. Seek and ye shall find . Epist. Ded. 
A73011	----	Looke beyond Luther: or An ansvvere to that question, so often and so insultingly proposed by our aduersaries, asking vs; where this our religion was before Luthers time? VVhereto are added sound props to beare vp honest-hearted Protestants, that they fall not from their sauing-faith. By Richard Bernard, of Batcombe in Sommersetshire. Bernard, Richard, 1568-1641. 1623 Approx. 140 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 33 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A73011 STC 1956.3 ESTC S123041 99900480 99900480 173372 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A73011) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 173372) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 2037:11) Looke beyond Luther: or An ansvvere to that question, so often and so insultingly proposed by our aduersaries, asking vs; where this our religion was before Luthers time? VVhereto are added sound props to beare vp honest-hearted Protestants, that they fall not from their sauing-faith. By Richard Bernard, of Batcombe in Sommersetshire. Bernard, Richard, 1568-1641. [8], 56 p. imprinted by Felix Kyngston, and are to be sold by Edmund Weauer, at his shop, at the great North-doore of Pauls, London : 1623. Signatures: A-H⁴. First leaf is blank. In this edition B1r line 2 of text ends "an in-"; D3r line 10 is "culars." Parts of quires F-H are reimposed from STC 1956. 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Protestantism -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. 2008-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-02 Pip Willcox Sampled and proofread 2008-02 Pip Willcox Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Looke beyond Luther : OR AN ANSWERE TO THAT QVESTION , SO OFTEN AND SO INSVLTINGLY PROPOSED BY our Aduersaries , asking vs ; Where this our Religion was before Luthers time ? WHERETO ARE ADDED SOVND PROPS TO BEARE vp honest-hearted Protestants , that they fall not from their sauing-faith . BY RICHARD BERNARD , OF Batcombe in Sommersetshire . LONDON , Imprinted by Felix Kyngston , and are to be sold by Edmund Weauer , at his shop , at the great North-doore of Pauls . 1623. TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL , Sir WALTER ERLE , Sir CLEMENT COTTEREL , KNIGHTS : And to their vertuous Ladies , euersoundnesse of Faith , with the power of Religion and constancie , in both most heartie wished . Right Worshipfull , I Should maruell to see any once professing the truth , to turne from the light vnto darkenes , from the true Worship and Religion of Christ , to the superstition and idolatrie of Antichrist , but that I read , that our first Parents beleeued Satan before God ; that men loue darkenesse more then the light , and that fornot louing the truth , and delighting in vnrighteousnesse , God giueth such ouer to beleeue lyes , that they may bee damned . Could it else otherwise be , that so many in this so cleare light of Gods Gospel , should fall away ? What haue our aduersaries now more to pleade for their cause , then heretofore they haue had ? What can they now say , which is not alreadie fully answered by our learned men ? They put out indeed new bookes , new in regard of the writing and printing ; but the reasons one and the same in older written and printed bookes : this is in shew a putting of more strength , to vphold their ruinous building , but not in substance : yet thus they beguile the simple and vnstable-minded . By many waies they seeke to deceiue , and beguile people , but especially by accusing our Religion of falshood and nouelty , and affirming theirs to bee the true and most ancient faith : in both which they speake very vntruely . For touching this their present Religion ( as it differeth from ours , and as it is Popery ) it is but a new vpstart Religion , a patcherie of Iudaisme , Paganisme and Heresie ; a Religion deuised by men , and not hauing God for the Author : How farre our Religion is from falshood and noueltie , I haue here indeuoured to shew , answering to that question so often propounded , Where it was before Luthers time ? If any of our aduersaries , or all of them together , dare to goe plainely to worke , ( for hitherto they haue not ) and first set downe ours and their accord , wherein , and how farre we and they in euery thing doe agree , to cut off hereby all needlesse strife and contentions . Secondly , then truely and faithfully without equiuocall termes , to deliuer their distinct differences from vs , that so euery one may rightly discerne , whereabout we do contend , and what indeede their now present Religion is , which we call Popery , bing seuered from our common agreement . Thirdly , to bring these their differences to the due triall of Scriptures , the common principles of Christianitie , and the true writings of the ancient Fathers in the first Ages ; then will it clearely appeare to euery one of indifferent iudgement , whether ours or theirs be the true Religion , and whether ours or theirs be the false Church . In the meane space , till they proceede thus vprightly and sincerely , I hope , no Protestant in earnest , will be insnared and catched by their deceites . Let such as in the plentifull meanes of knowledge wilfully liue in ignorance , or hauing knowledge , liue lewdly , without feare of God , loue of truth , and power of Religion , be the prey for craftie Foxes : for these be the fittest subiects for them to worke vpon ; and these only preuaile they with , receiuing a iust punishment for their contempt of sauing knowledge , or for their consciencelesse liuing contrary to their knowledge . For there is no man of right vnderstanding , and that makes conscience of his waies , louing the truth , walking humbly before his God , being acquainted with Gods Word , and praying for Gods direction , that God either will giue ouer , or that can in reason submit vnto this false Antichristian Church , if he doe but seriously consider of such things , as will worke , if not an absolute condemnation , yet a most iust suspition of her to be naught ; as first , the vilifying of holy Scriptures , locking them vp from the common people , as if Gods Word were infectious . Secondly , her thrusting vpon the people her feigned traditions , all besides , and many of them against Scripture . Thirdly , the absurd and vnreasonablenesse of their Latine Seruice , which the people vnderstand not . Fourthly , their idolatrous praying to Saints , worshipping stockes and stones , and reliques of the dead . Fifthly , their grosse conceit of Christs corporall presence in the Sacrament . Sixthly , the feigned miracles , and notable coozenages therin , found out here , and in other Countries ; the boasting of them a farre off , but not able to worke the like among vs. Seuenthly , the shamelesse & grosse belying of our doctrine , and slandring the liues of our learned men , as Luther , Caluin , Beza , and others . Eighthly , the citing in defence of their Religion , counterfeit Authors , so knowne to be , and so condemned to be by the learned on their owne side . Ninthly , the not permitting freely our bookes among them , as wee doe theirs among vs. Tenthly , the tying of the people to the Priests lippes , and not permitting them to trie their doctrine , as we doe . The vniust curses , dissembling practices , and mercilesse cruelties vsed to vphold their Religion , swearing & for swearing , by equiuocations , ment all reseruations , and Popes dispensations , massacres , and powder-plots , and bloodie persecutions . Twelfthly , The auoyding of a free generall Councell , to heare and determine our differences . Who is he that shall consider of these things with iudgement , but will suspect this Romish Church to be none of Christs Church , if withal he adde hereto the consideration of the differences betweene the wisedome below ( by which that seate is guided ) which is earthly , naturall , sensuall , & deuilish , and the wisdom from aboue ( by which Christs Church is guided ) which is pure , peaceable , gentle , easie to be intreated , full of mercy , and good fruits , without partiality , and without hypocrisie , as Saint Iames writeth ? I doubt not but that you haue already considered of these premisses , and that you are resolued , that this is the true . Religion , and the good way , wherein you walke , euen the ancient , Catholike and Apostolike veritie , grounded vpon Scripture , and the principles of Christianitie , taught by the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church , and confirmed by the blood of blessed Martyrs . My desire is , that God would continue your loue , with encrease of zeale towards the same more and more . To this purpose are these my endeuors , which I present vnto you , praying your fauourable acceptance of my good meaning , and hearty wel-wishes , and worthie respect vnto your selues , and to all that wish well to Sion , and pray for the peace of Ierusalem : God let them , and you with yours , to prosper which loue it . Amen . Your Worships in all Christian seruices to be commanded , Richard Bernard . Batcombe , Sept. 26. Looke beyond Luther : OR AN ANSWERE TO THAT QVESTION SO often , and so insultingly proposed by our Aduersaries , asking vs ; Where this our Religion was , before Luthers time ? IT is a common question , and often propounded by Papists in an insulting manner ouer vs , Where our Religion was before Luthers time ? As though wee could not answere to the demand , nor fetch our Religion from any more ancient , or better Author : but they are deceiued in both . And that I may not be tedious in prefacing , I answer : I. It was , and is written , and contained in the holy Scriptures , the Canonicall Books of the old and new Testament . II. The same hath been , and is written in the hearts of Gods people , such as the Lord from time to time effectually hath called , according to euerie mans measure , as they haue bin taught it , and learned it out of those books of holy Scripture . For this must we know , that no other doctrine of Christian Religion was , or is written in mens hearts , by Gods Spirit , then that which the same Spirit inspired the Pen-men of the Scriptures to write in those Bookes . The necessarie truths of doctrine therein contained ( as God had promised ) hath he written in the hearts of his people , Ier. 31.33 , 34. 2. Cor. 3.3 . And for these ends , that they might know God , and know him to be their God , and they his people , Ier. 31.33 , 34. that they might make profession thereof , and obediently set themselues to the practice of that his blessed will , Ezech. 11.19 , 20. & 36.26 , 27. III. That it was also written in learned mens labours , agreeing with those holy Bookes , as they found the truth therein , taught vnto them by the Prophets and Apostles . So as the doctrine of our Religion is no other , then that which the Scriptures doe teach , the Church and true People of God haue beleeued , and professed ; nor no other then that , which is to be found in the writings of y e holy ancient Fathers , and of learned men , before euer Luther was borne . That our Religion was thus before Luthers time , I proue by these ensuing reasons . I. Argument . From holy Scriptures , wherein our Religion is written and taught in euery point . THat Religion which is in all and euerie point thereof written , and prescribed in holy Scriptures , the Canonical books of the old and new Testament , was before Luthers time . For the Scriptures were written many hundred yeeres , before Luther was in beeing , and the Pen-men thereof had a care to practise the same . But this our present Religion in all and euerie point thereof ( wherein we differ from our Aduersaries ) is written and prescribed in the holy Scriptures , the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament : as is in euery particular point prooued exactly by those of our side . And therefore was it before Luthers time . The Minor I thus prooue . I. By the publike Records of our Church here at home , as the publike authorized Catechisme , shorter and larger , by the booke of Homilies , by the book of Articles , and our booke of Common-prayer . Out of which ( wherein soeuer we differ from our Aduersaries ) nothing is found besides , as wanting warrant of Scripture , much lesse any thing contrarie thereunto , but euery thing grounded vpon , and fully agreeing with the same . II. By Gods Spirit , the Author of the Scriptures , which doth further our Religion in the hearts of the people , through the reading and interpreting thereof , which the Spirit of God would not doe , if our Religion were not that , which the Scriptures teach . For would the Author of the one , approue of the other , if they were not both one ? If hee should further a Religion , contrarie to the Scripture , hee should be contrary to himselfe , allowing and making good that in mens hearts by inward operation , which he hath disallowed by the Scriptures , which are of his diuine inspiration . It is euident to all that are read in the Scriptures , that they condemne all Heathenish , al Heretical , and Idolatrous Religion ; likewise , all will-worship , all vaine inuentions of men , the seruing of God by humane traditions , by the precepts and doctrines of men : so as if our Religion were any such , Gods Spirit would not grace it , nor so knit mens harts vnto it , nor so effectually worke by it in mens consciences , nor so perswade vnto it , as he daily doth by the Scriptures . If they shall denie , that Gods Spirit doth any such thing , as we suppose ; I would faine know of them , what other spirit it possibly may be , that doth so leade men to esteeme so much the Scriptures , doth excite men to the studie of them , and to make them the onely rule of doctrine , and life , to heare , belieue , rest and delight in them , and so to worship God onely , as herein he requireth to be worshipped , and to reiect whatsoeuer is not warranted by them , in euery necessarie point of faith ? And that onely vpon this perswasion , that the Scriptures are Gods word , that they are endited by his Spirit , and written by his holy Prophets and Apostles ? If this be not the Spirit of God , which doth thus magnifie the holy Scriptures in the heart of euery sound Christian , what spirit then is it ? Certainely it must bee either the Spirit of God , or of Man , or of the Deuill . But neither of these two latter , therefore the former . I. It is not the spirit of man that can , and doth thus worke : for first , the spirit of man perceiueth not the things of God , till Gods Spirit acquaint him with them . Secondly , they be foolishnesse vnto him . Thirdly , his wisdome is enmitie with God , so as Gods wisdome in diuine mysteries , and mans wisdome can neuer agree in one . Fourthly , the spirit of man sauoureth the things of the flesh , and not of the Spirit of God. Fifthly , his heart is continually euil , till he be regenerate . Sixthly and lastly , it is euidently knowne by too much miserable experience , that man loueth not the studie of the Scriptures , he cannot delight in them , hee cannot away to frame his life after them ; euery one that hath any sparke of diuine knowledge , knoweth this to bee true from his owne naturall corruption , both in himselfe and others also . Now can any reasonable-minded man thinke , that such an auerse spirit as is in man , so disaffecting the holy Scriptures , and the studie thereof , that it can be that Spirit which perswadeth and draweth men , contrary to it corrupt selfe , to embrace that Religion which is grounded vpon the Scriptures , and to presse to the obedience thereof ? Yea , can it bee mans spirit , that worketh loue to such a Religion , which so opposeth mans corruption , as the worldly wise Politician derideth it , the pleasurable man hateth it , the greedy of gaine cannot abide to bee ruled by it , and the haughtie spirit which hunteth after the pride of life , hath it in great contempt ? so as none in very deed , but onely such as doe denie themselues , doe forsake the world , and can bee well contented to take vp their crosse , and follow Christ , either can , or will embrace the same . II. It is not the spirit of Satan . For although hee will abusiuely now and then alleage Scripture , yet is he a deadly enemie to the Scriptures : he will not leade to the right vse of them , nor perswade men to frame their Religion and life after them , but rather doth suggest the cleane contrarie , as the storie of the Scriptures witnesseth , and our owne temptations tell vs. For , as a * Father saith , The Deuill cannot endure to haue any to studie the Scriptures ; that is torment and paine aboue all paines to him . He hath euer been a raiser vp of persecution against such , as serue God in a Religion onely grounded vpon the Scriptures : as hee was in the Iewes , against the Apostles , and the beleeuing Gentiles ; so in Gentiles Infidels , against Christians ; in the Heretikes against the Orthodoxall ; in our Antichristian Aduersaries against vs ; and in all lewde liuers , the children of disobedience , in whom he beareth rule , and whose hearts he stirreth vp to doe his will against all such , as in a more strict manner endeuour to frame their liues after Gods Word , though in general together , they professe one God , and haue receiued the same Baptisme , and doe liue together in the same Church . Therefore wee see , that it cannot be the spirit of Satan , that perswadeth to our so holy a Religion by the Scriptures , vpon which onely it is settled , seeing he so deadly hateth such a Religion , and the sound and zealous Professours thereof . III. It is not the spirit of man and Satan together , as may appeare , first , in Heretikes , who are led by Satan , and their owne spirit . These being not able to iustifie their heresies by holy Scripture , they fall to weaken the authoritie of the Scriptures , they will not rest on them , but doe flie the light of them , as Tertullian , and other ancient Fathers witnesse of Heretikes in their times , who left the Scriptures , and ran to Traditions , as did the Manichees , Cerynthians , Basilidians , Carpocratians , Marcionists , Valentinians , Arians , and others . Secondly , In all will-worshippers , which framing a seruice to God out of their owne braines , cannot away to make holy Scriptures their guide , but doe leaue them assoone as they bee addicted to their owne inuentions , of which , God by his Prophets in Scripture often complaines . Thirdly , In Heathen Idolaters , who haue been set on worke by the Deuill to burne the Scriptures , as did that wicked Dioclesian ; also here in Brittaine , the Infidell Saxons ; and in Ierusalem , that vngodly Iehoiakim , who burnt the Prophecie of Ieremiah , which Baruch writ from his mouth at that time . Fourthly , In our Aduersaries now , who cannot rest with the Scriptures , nor will admit them , as the only Iudge in controuersies , nor as the onely Rule of Religion . And the very reason is , because they teach and practise many things out of their owne spirit , euen the doctrine of Deuils , which the Scripture vtterly condemneth . Their Sainted will-worshippers in their Heremeticall life , and their world of Monkish Orders , cannot abide the rule of Scripture ; their holy course of life so much admired and extolled ( yet onely of such as know not the power of Satan , in the deceiueable wayes of his vnrighteousnesse ) dares not stand to be iudged , ruled , and squared after the rule of holy Scriptures : yea , as holy as they pretend to bee , yet neither can they , nor wil they wholly frame their seruice and deuotion and life after the Word of life . And therefore we see , that it cannot be the spirit of Man and Satan , whether apart considered or conioyned , that doth perswade , mooue and further to the embracing of that Religion , which is wholly grounded vpon the Scriptures , as ours is . And therefore not being either of these , it followeth , that it must needs bee the Spirit of God , that thus perswadeth men to our Religion by the Scriptures , wherein it is contained . III. Our Religion appeareth to be written in , and iustified by the Scriptures , for that in those places it getteth entrance , and thriueth , where they are permitted to be studied , and read of all , and to be taught , as the onely rule of Religion . The Scriptures are the very life and strength of our Religion , as is sufficiently knowne by experience to our very Aduersaries . Now , how could this be , if our Religion were not that , which is taught in the Scriptures ? For the Scripture , as is aforesaid , doth condemne Heretikes & Heresies , will-worship and will-worshippers , idolatry and idolaters ; and is the Sword of the Spirit , the breath of Christs mouth , that consumeth the Man of Sinne. If our Religion were heresie , or wil-worship , or idolatrie , or the inuention of that Man of sin , the Scriptures could not be the life and strength thereof , seeing they oppose , and vtterly condemne those things . IV. Our Religion standeth , and is vpheld by such holy and heauenly meanes onely , as the Scriptures allow and prescribe , and which we find there to bee the onely meanes , vsed at the first planting of Christian Religion by the Apostles in the Primitiue Church , which were these that follow . I. There was then the preaching of Gods Word . This meanes was prescribed by our Sauiour Christ , to make Disciples vnto him , Mat. 28.19 , 20. and the same obserued by his Apostles , Mark. 16.15 . 20. Acts 2.14 . & 10.34 . & 11.19 . So preaching of Gods Word is the meanes , by which our Religion , through Gods blessing , is planted in mens hearts . As also it was foretold and appointed , that it should bee the meanes to regaine people from vnder Antichrist , Reuel . 10.11 . & 14 6. II. There was the teaching of the grounds , and principles of Christianitie , then called milke , now commonly called , the Catechisme , Heb. 6.1 . & 5 12. 1. Cor. 3.2 . This hath greatly furthered our Religion , euen by the testimony of our Aduersaries , and is a speciall meanes to informe the minds of the ignorant , in the truth of our Religion , that they may not be deceiued . III. Then was teaching and preaching altogether out of the Scriptures of the Prophets . The Apostles taught the Gospell onely out of them , Rom. 1.2 . Acts 26.22 & 28.23 . the Scriptures they cited , Acts 1.16 . & 2.16 , 17. by them they confuted the Aduersaries , Acts 17.2 . & 18.28 . So our teaching and preaching is out of the Scriptures of the Prophets and Apostles : by these we confirme our doctrine , and by these chiefely doe we confute our Aduersaries . IV. Then was allowed the vse of the holy Scriptures indifferently to all sorts , without restraint or exception ; they were free to all of the Laity , both men and women . The Apostles neuer forbade them to any , nor euer reprooued any for reading or studying of them , but commended them to all sorts , 2. Tim. 3.15 , 16. 2. Pet. 1.19 , 20 , 21. and left it written , as a matter worthy prayse in religious men , the Eunuch , and the Noble Baereans , that they read and searched the Scriptures ; so also in godly women for training vp their children herein , Acts 8.30 . & 17.11 . 2. Tim. 1.5 . & 3.15 . Yea , Peter ( whom our Aduersaries make their Rocke ) in generall telleth all Christian beleeuers , that they should do well to take heed thereunto , as to a sure Word , 2. Pet. 1.19 . So is there here with vs , the free vse of the Scriptures ; this wee commend to all sorts , forbid them to none , but rather hold them most religious , who delight in the holy and reuerent studie of the Scriptures , according to the practice of the ancient Primitiue Church in the Apostles dayes . V. Then were there publike Assemblies , where they met together , 1. Cor. 11.18 , 19. Acts 1.13 . & 2.46 . and that vpon the first day of the weeke , Acts 20.7 . 1. Cor. 16.2 . These Assemblies none might forsake , but all were mutually to exhort to the frequent vse of them , Heb. 10.25 . to beware of causing diuisions and offences , contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Apostles , Rom. 16.17 . So haue wee publike Assemblies , where wee meete on the first day of the weeke , and at other times , which all are bound to come vnto , and none ought to forsake , to preuent diuisions , contrarie to the Apostolicall doctrine , and to preserue the publike profession and exercise of our Religion . VI. Then was there set ouer euery seuerall Assembly and Congregation , such as might be able to teach , hauing the ouersight of the people , and care of their soules , Acts 14.23 . Tit. 1.5 . Acts 20.28 . Heb. 13.7 , 17. 1. Pet. 5.2 , 3. So is this in our Church a most excellent meanes to vphold our Religion . VII . Then was God onely worshipped , and he onely prayed vnto in those Assemblies ; not Saints , nor Angels , nor the Virgin Marie . In them prayers were made with one accord , Acts 1.14 . & 2.42 . & 4.24 . the Word read , 1. Thes . 5.27 . Col 4.16 . the Word preached , Act. 20.7 . the Sacraments administred , Act. 2.42 . 1. Cor. 11.18 , 20 , 23 , 26. and the Lords Supper in both kinds deliuered , 1. Cor. 10.16 . Collections were also made for the poore , 1. Cor. 16.12 . and al things were performed to edification , in a known tongue , 1. Cor. 14. In our Assemblies God is onely worshipped , to him onely we make our prayers , and neither to Saint nor Angell , nor to the Virgin Mary ; though wee honour them duly as we ought . In our Assemblies , Prayer is made with one accord , the Word read and preached , the Sacraments administred , and the Lords Supper in both kinds deliuered , Almes , as need requires , giuen to the poore , and all done to edification , and in a knowne tongue , as in the Apostles dayes . VIII . Then was preached against , and forbidden all will-worship , though neuer so faire in shew , all seruice to God after the doctrine and cōmandements of men , Col. 2.20 , 23. also , the worship of Angels , Col. 2.18 . the worship of Idols , 1. Ioh. 5.21 . and fellowship with Idolaters , 1. Cor. 8.10 . and 5.11 . 2. Cor. 6.14 , 18. So with vs are forbidden all these things , and condemned by our Religion , as is euident by our booke of Homilies , booke of Articles , the publike authorized larger Catechisme , and other publike Records : yea , the forbidding , abolishing , and preaching against these things , is an excellent meanes to vphold the purity of our Religion , which in it selfe is so contrary to all will-worship , humane inuentions , superstition and idolatry . IX . Then was the exercise of Ecclesiasticall discipline for the preseruation of order , for the punishing and casting out of obstinate Heretikes , 1. Tim. 1.20 . & 6.3 . Tit. 3.10 . as also of notorious offenders , which would not otherwise bee reformed , 1. Cor. 5.7 . 2. Thes . 3.14 . and those the people were to auoyd , 1. Cor. 5.10 . 2. Thes . 3.6 . 2. Tim. 3.5 . Ephes . 5.7 . This godly discipline duly obserued , is of great force to preserue our Religion , and to keepe it in honour and estimation . X. Then was there vrging and pressing to a holy conuersation , both in Pastors , Tit. 2.7 , 8. 1. Tim. 4.12 . and in the people , Rom. 12.1 , 2. Eph. 5. & 6. This Christian-like conuersation adorneth our Religion , which is onely powerfull in them which liue well ; for it condemneth all Libertinisme , and requireth very strict obedience to God and his Word . XI . Then was suffering of persecution for the truth , and the same foretold to accompany the godly , Acts 14.22 . 1. Thes . 3.3 . 2. Tim. 3.12 . & 1.8 . Phil. 1.19 . which greatly furthered Religion , taught by the Apostles , Phil. 1.12 . And so hath it done ours in these parts of Christendome , as the World knoweth . XII . Then was taught subiection both of Pastors and people vnto Principalities and Powers , as to Kings , so to inferiour Magistrates sent by them . All sorts without exception , were taught obedience to them , and for conscience sake , were they bound to render to them dues , tribute , custome , honour . They were commanded to make prayers for them with thanksgiuing , which was a meanes to further Religion : for the Apostle telleth them , that thus to doe is well-doing , and a meanes to stop the mouthes of the Aduersaries , that so they might leade a quiet and peaceable life in al godlinesse and honestie , Rom. 13.1 , 7. T it 3.1 . 1. Pet. 2.13 , 17. 1. Tim. 2.1 , 2. This is , & hath bin an excellent meanes to aduance our Religion : for Kings and Princes seeing , that our true and Apostolicall Religion did not derogate from their lawfull authoritie , did not draw subiects from their allegeance , nor exempt any from their true obedience , but rather maintained the right , which God by his holy Word in Scriptures had giuen them ; they submitted to the truth , and embraced our Religion , shaking off the yoake of Antichrist , and so tooke vpon them the authoritie giuen them of God , to reforme Religion , according as they were taught , and had learned the doctrine of Christ in the Scriptures . Thus wee see , first , the ordinarie meanes which the holy Scriptures prescribe , and euidently shew to haue been vsed in the Primitiue Church , for the planting and vpholding of Christian Religion . And secondly , that the very selfe-same haue been , and yet are the meanes for planting and preseruing of our Religion , in euery Country where it hath been receiued . Which meanes are so powerfull and effectuall for this purpose , that looke by how much these meanes are put in execution , by so much doth our Religion prosper , in spite of all worldly oppositions , and gaine-sayings whatsoeuer : and on the contrarie , looke as these meanes , either wholly , or but in part , are neglected , or faile to bee performed , so doth our Religion lose of its strength , and decay amongst the people , what policie soeuer men otherwise vse to vphold the same . For our Religion stands by holy and heauenly meanes , and not by meere worldly policie , or humane deuices , faire shewes to the eyes , delights to the eare , pleasurable obiects to delight the carnally-minded . Neither can it be held by any Satanicall delusions , fabulous narrations , feigned miracles , deceitfull iugglings ; nor by pretended apparitions of Angels , or of soules departed ; nor by the bare authoritie of mens sayings , Decrees of corrupt Councels , Popes sentences , wrangling Canonists , Sophisticall distinctions of Schoolemen , humane Traditions , Apocryphall writings , old and idle customes , examples of ignorant forefathers , estimation of mens persons for learning , and shew of holinesse ; nor by any deceitfull , wicked , and corrupt dealing , as by counterfeite and bastard writings , corrupting of Councels and Fathers , expunging words and sentences out of learned mens workes , or altering them from the true meaning , to beguile the simple Reader . No , nor by furious and forcible meanes ; as by fire and fagot , massacres , treasons , poysons , and stabbing of Kings , and Gun-powder-plots , nor by any such hellish practices , such as the Apostles neuer spake of , the Primitiue Church neuer knew of , nor in holy Scripture were euer spoken of ; for all these , our Religion doth vtterly condemne . It is vpheld only by those holy and heauenly meanes , which the Apostles taught , and practised , and which they haue left written in the Scriptures for direction of Gods Church , that she may know , which be the onely effectuall meanes , that God hath appointed to vphold his true Religion . By these meanes onely , ours is preserued . And therefore it is that true Religion , which the holy Scripture teacheth . Which being so , I conclude this first argument , That this our present Religion , wherein we differ from our Aduersaries , was before Luthers time . II. Argument . From the blessed Martyrs in all Ages . THat Religion which was written by God in the hearts of his Martyrs , and which from the beginning to this day , they all suffered for , was before Luthers time . This cannot bee denied . But our Religion now present , was written by God in the hearts of his Martyrs , and is that which from the beginning to this day , they all suffered for . And therefore this our now present Religion was before Luthers time . The Minor is thus confirmed , both for the writing of it in their hearts , and for suffering for it . The latter manifesteth the former : for they that faithfully and constantly obey the truth , euen vnto suffering persecution , and death for it , without doubt haue it written in their hearts . For if Religion be not imprinted in the hearts of the Martyrs , in whose hart is it written ? For the Martyrs had the Spirit of the liuing God , sauing-knowledge , and remission of sinnes : they walked in Gods Statutes , and kept his Iudgements sincerely ; all which are the euident signes , that Gods truth was written in their hearts , as these places of Scripture witnesse , 2. Cor. 3.3 . Ier. 31.33 , 34. Ezech. 36.27 . This is not to bee doubted of . But the question is , Whether all the Martyrs did suffer for this our Religion , or no ? To answere to this , wee must consider , that all the Martyrs of Christ may be ranked into foure sorts , euery of which suffered for such truths , as are in our Religion , which we doe at this day professe . I. Sort of Martyrs were those , who suffered by the Iewes , whereof the first was Stephen , then Iames , with many more , Act 7. & 12.2 , 4. All these did suffer for that Religion , which Christ and his Apostles taught : but they taught out of the Scriptures , and not out of Traditions , as the Euangelists and Acts shew . But to suffer for that Religion , which is onely taught in the Scriptures , is to suffer for ours , as by the former argument is prooued . Therefore they suffered for our Religion . II. Sort of Martyrs were such , as suffered by and amongst the Heathen , especially vnder the Romane Tyrants , during the ten bloody persecutions ; among which Martyrs were most of the Apostles : for we reade not in Scripture , that any of the Apostles suffred martyrdome amongst the Iewes , but onely Iames , Iohns brother , Acts 12. the rest suffered among the Heathen . Now the Apostles being the planters of our Religion ( as by their writings doth appeare ) and also Martyrs for the same among this second sort , they must needs be our Martyrs , suffering for our Religion , and so all the rest which followed the Apostles in the same faith . III. Sort of Martyrs were such , as suffered by the furie and rage of Heretikes , when the Arians had god an ouerswaying power through Arian Emperours and Kings . But those Orthodoxall Martyrs and Confessors suffered for no other doctrine , then our Religion teacheth . For wee hold and professe the faith of the Councell of Nice , and Athanasius Creed ; for in our common Prayer-booke they are appoynted publikely to be read in our Assemblies . And therefore these also suffered for our Religion , and were our Martyrs . But heere our Aduersaries will say , that all these three sorts were their Martyrs ; for they brag and boast of these to silly people , as if they had suffered for their religion , now professed and practised among them . But that the truth may appeare , whether these Martyrs bee theirs , or ours , wee must consider them both as Martyrs , and also as beleeuers : properly they were Martyrs in those things , for which they did suffer . Now their suffering was for the common truths , receiued both by our Aduersaries and vs. So the cause making the Martyrs , and it equally held of both , they are our Martyrs , aswell as theirs . Yea , if we consider them also as Beleeuers , holding other points of faith , for which they were not questioned , neither suffered for , wee may more rightly claime them , then our Aduersaries . For of which Religion they held , and most agreed vnto , of that Religion must they be iudged to be . That this may bee knowne , it must be wel conceiued , what they and we meane by saying , Our Religion . We either side stand vpon our Religion , not as wee agree in points of Christianitie one with the other ; but as wee haue our differences also to our selues one from the other . So vpon this resteth the point , to trie the Martyrs whose they bee , theirs or ours , by their more or lesse agreeing , or disagreeing with either side in our said differences . But in respect of the maine differences of their Religion from ours , that they cannot claime the Martyrs , I thus proue by these ensuing reasons . I. If these maine , differences in their Religion be such , as none of these Martyrs ( which suffered by , and amongst the Iewes , or by , and amongst the Heathen , or by , and amongst the wicked Heretikes ) euer made profession of , much lesse suffered for , then in respect of these differences , are they not their Martyrs ; they cannot appropriate them to themselues , as they vse to doe , but are still Martyrs in common . But the antecedent is true , as shall be prooued by my third reason next following , for sixe hundred yeeres space after Christ , in which space were all three sorts of Martyrs . And therefore the consequence cannot be denied . II. If these differences in their Religion bee nothing else but humane inuentions , without sound authoritie from holy Scriptures , and that the Martyrs professed and beleeued those things onely , which expressely , or by necessarie conclusions , are contained in the Scriptures , then in respect of these differences , they are not their Martyrs . But the former part is true . Ergo , the latter must needes be granted . For the truth of the antecedent , touching the vnwarrantablenesse of these their differences , and without all ground of Scripture : I demand of Papists , what Scripture haue they for these things , wherein we and they doe differ ? I. Of God. What Scripture for the picturing of the holy Trinitie ; forbidden by Moses to be any way represented ? Deut. 4 15 , 16. II. Of the Scriptures . Where is it written , that the Scriptures receiue authoritie from the Church , and the sense thereof onely subiect vnto her ? That the Vulgar Latin translation is only to be admitted as authenticall ? That the Scriptures be imperfect , and are not the certaine rule of faith ? That there are traditions besides for perfecting the Scriptures , and to bee receiued with equall authoritie with Scriptures ? III. Of the Church . That the Catholike Church is not the company onely of Gods elect people ? That the Church of Rome cannot erre ? IV. Of the Pope . Where is Scripture to proue , that Peter was at Rome , and Bishop there twenty fiue yeeres ? That he was to be appointed Vicar of Christ ? That the Pope is the vniuersall Bishop ? That he onely is Peters successour , and Christs Vicar ? That he cannot erre è Cathedra ? That he is aboue Councels ? That hee may depose Kings from their temporall estates , and dispose of their Kingdomes ? That he can dispense with sinnes against the plaine Law of God ? That he can set soules free out of torments after this life ? V. Of the Clergie and Ecclesiasticall persons . In what place of Scripture is it taught , that there be Popes , Cardinals , and Popish Prelates like Princes ? That there are now Priests , to whom a speciall Office of Priesthood is assigned ? That there bee seuen degrees thereof ? That a man is now appointed in the time of the Gospell , to offer sacrifices daily for the quicke and the dead ? That all Churchmen ( so called ) are to liue vnmarried ? That a Monasticall life is the best estate ? That Ecclesiasticall persons are exempt from secular authority ? VI. Of the Sacraments . Where doth the Scripture teach , that Baptisme is to bee administred with Chrisme , Oyle , Coniuring , Salt , Spittle ? That there is such a spirituall kindred betweene the Witnesses , and the party baptized , as also betwixt the Parents and Children of those Witnesses , as it hindreth marriage ( without a dispensation ) betwixt one another , though there be otherwise no kindred either of affinity or consanguinity ? That Iesus Christ is bodily and wholly , as he is Man , borne of the Virgin Mary , in the Sacrament , the Bread being turned into his Flesh ? That it is a sacrifice for the quick and the dead ? That the Cake is to bee reserued , and carryed about in pompe , and that all are to fall downe to it , and worship it ? That it is to bee administred but in one kind ? That the Lay people must not take it , but gape and eate it ? That the Priest that saith Masse , must haue a shauen Crowne ; haue his Amice , Girdle , Aube , Manuple , Stole , Chesible , and other pretended holy vestments ? That he must vse such crossings , turning , duckings , liftings , whisperings , gapings , minglings of wine and water , such lickings , and other variety of stagelike gestures ? VII . Of Prayer . That it must be in Latine ? That not God onely , but Saints may be prayed vnto ? That the dead are to be prayed for ? That it is lawfull to pray by number , to say the same 150. times , and to pray vpon Beades ? VIII . Of Worship . What written Word teacheth , that Diuine Seruice is to bee said onely in the Latine Tongue ? That Saints , and their Reliques are to be adored ? That Images and Pictures are to be in Churches , for adoration sake , and to be Lay-mens bookes ? IX . Of the Virgin Mary . That she was borne without sinne ? That she is the Queene of Heauen , the Lady of the World ? That she is diuinely to be worshipped ? That shee is to haue her proper seruice , and her Aue Maries ? X. Of the Church or Temple , the place of publike worship . What Scripture , that Belles are to bee baptized ? That there must bee Altars , Veiles , Holy-water , Holy-ashes , Palmes , and many such trumperies ? That children dying without Baptisme , are not to be buried in the Church-yard ; and that there is for their soules a Limbus Infantium ? XI . Of dayes . Where doe the Apostles teach , that there are such a number of Holy-dayes , as be in that Religion ? That a speciall Holinesse is to be put in the obseruation of dayes ? That dayes and times are to bee set apart to the worship of Saints ? XII . Of meates . Where in Scripture reade they , that there is such a difference of meates , as the obseruation of such a difference at some times , is more holy , then at other some times ? All these differences are humane inuentions , without warrant of Scriptures . Now let them shew , that any of these sorts of Martyrs beleeued and professed these differences ; if they cannot , then the conclusion is good , that they were not their Martyrs by these differences , but in common still ours as well as theirs . III. If these differences be but a very patchery of Heresies , Iudaisme , and Paganisme , then in respect thereof , they cannot be their Martyrs : for Martyrs suffered for none of these three , but , in detestation thereof , were grieuously persecuted by Iewes , Pagans , and Heretikes . But the anticedent is most true , as our learned men haue made it manifest . For Heresies ; a Bish . Morton , b Doct. Whitacres , c Gab. Powel , and d Doctor Willet . For Iudaisme , e Doctor Raynolds hath sufficiently manifested it , and somewhat of Paganisme . But for this , reade Thom. Moresin , Doctor of Physick , his whole booke , called Papatus , printed at Edenburgh , and f Gab. Powel on the first Chapter to the Romanes . For all three , see a late published booke , called , The three Conformities . And therefore in respect of these differences , being hereticall , Iewish , and Paganish , these Martyrs are none of their Martyrs , neither did their sufferings make good any whit this their now present Religion . IV. If these differences from our Religion doe offer violence to the three Offices of Christ , and make their publike worship in many things blasphemous , and idolatrous ; then in respect of such differences , they are not their Martyrs . But the antecedent is true . Ergo , the consequent . To proue the antecedent , Doctor Fownes hath lately of purpose set forth his Trisagion , wherein he hath sufficiently confirmed it , out of their publike Missaes , Breuiaries , Portuses , Rosaries , Liturgies , Psalters , Primers , and Manuals of prayers , to which I referre the Reader for full satisfaction : And doe conclude therefore , that these blessed Martyrs were none of theirs , by vertue of these differences . V. If many of these differences of theirs be not only besides Scripture , without warrant from thence , as before is shewed , but also flat against Scripture , and against our common tenents , agreed vpon betweene vs and them : then in respect of these differences , they are not their Martyrs . For they did not suffer for those things which were against Scripture , and the common tenents of Christianity , wherein we and our Aduersaries doe agree . If they dare affirme this , let them giue instances thereof . But many of these their differences are against Scripture , and against the common tenents of Christianity , in which we both agree . Which being so , these their differences can be no part of Christianity , because they be against both the rule , and also against the grounds of Christianity . Therefore the consequence is true . That there are such differences betweene vs , I instance for proofe in these ensuing . That the Scriptures are imperfect , contrary to Psal . 19.7 . 1. Tim. 3.16 , 17. That there is an vnwritten word , called , Traditions , to be added thereunto ; contrary to Deut. 4.2 . Reuel . 21.8 . Prou. 30.6 . That the witnesse of the Church , is greater then the witnesse of the Scriptures , and to be beleeued before them : contrary to 1. Ioh. 5.9 . Ioh. 5.17 . That the inuisible God may bee pictured : contrary to Deut. 4.15 . Acts 17.29 . Esa . 40.18 . Rom. 1.23 . That Images may be made to be worshipped : contrary to Deut. 27.15 . Exod. 20. and that they are for instruction : contrary to Hab. 2.18 . That prayers may be made to the Virgin Mary , and to Saints departed : contrary to Matth. 6.19 . and contrary to the practice of the Patriarchs , Prophets and Apostles , and holy men in Scripture . That prayers made by number , and often repetitions , are pleasing vnto God , as when people are taught to pray by number on Beades : contrary to Matth. 6.7 . That they may be vttered in an vnknowne tongue , and also Gods publike seruice so said : contrary to 1. Cor. 14.15 , 19. That therein a generall good intent is acceptable to God , though the mind bee not endued with sound knowledge : contrary to Prou. 19 . 2.n 1. Cor. 14.20 . That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , is to be administred and receiued in one kind : contrary to Matth. 26.27 . 1. Cor. 10.16 . & 11.23 , 24 , 25. That Iesus Christ is corporally in the Bread transubstantiated : contrary to Act. 3.21 . And that it is very God : contrary to Hos . 8.6 . That it is offered for a sacrifice propitiatory , as if Christ once offering himselfe , were not sufficient : contrary to Heb. 10.10 , 14. That the Law may be fulfilled , and a man iustified thereby before God : contrary to Rom. 7.19 . & 3.20 . & 4.2 . 1. Cor. 4.4 . Esa . 46.6 . That a man may merit by his works : contrary to Tit. 3.5 . Ephes . 2.8 , 10. Rom. 6.23 . Luk. 7.10 . That a man may bee able to doe more , then God requireth of him , or that hee is tyed by dutie to doe : contrary to Rom. 7.19 . Luk. 17.10 . Prou. 20.9 . Eccles . 7.20 . Psal . 130.3 . That the Pope may dispense with Gods Law : contrary to 1. Sam. 2.25 . Rom. 8.33 , 34. Iob 9.33 . & 34.29 . That there are sinnes which yet are not prohibited by Gods Law : contrary to 1. Ioh. 3.4 . Ro. 4.15 . & 7.8 . & 3.20 . That some sinnes are in themselues veniall , which deserue not death : contrary to Rom. 6.23 . Iames. 1.15 . Genes . 2.17 . That originall concupiscence is no sinne in the regenerate : contrary to Rom. 7.19 . Psalm . 51. That the Virgin Mary was without sinne : contrary to Iob 14.4 . Eccles . 7.2 , 20. Psal . 130.3 . Rom. 3.9 , 23. 1. Ioh. 1.7 , 8. Luk. 1.46 . That Marriage is not honourable in all sorts of men , as for instance , not in the Clergie : contrary to Hebr. 13.4 . 1. Cor. 7.9 . 1. Tim. 5.14 . and contrary to the practice of the married Priests vnder the Law. That married persons with consent , may euer liue asunder , to leade a Monasticall life : contrary to 1. Cor. 7.2 . That holinesse is to be put in the obseruation of dayes : contrary to Col. 2.16 . Of meates : contrary to Rom. 14.14 . 1. Cor. 8.8 . Matth. 15.20 . 1. Tim. 4.3 , 4. and so men lose thereby Christian liberty : contrary to Gal. 5.1 . That many who dye in the Lord , not abiects from God , yet rest not after death for a time : contrary to Reuel . 14.13 . but make a temporall satisfaction , in a place they call Purgatorie , whose sinnes although heere pardoned , yet goe not these soules immediately to heauen : contrary to Luk. 23.43 . where the good Thiefe is promised Paradise , which is Heauen , 2. Cor. 12.3 , 4. That the Popes power is kingly , yea , that he may vse the temporall Sword , and depose Kings , and dispose of their Kingdomes , and be subiect to none : contrary to Luke 22.25 , 26. Matth. 20.25 , 26. Rom. 13. 1. Tit. 3.1 . 1. Pet. 2.13 . That he which gets the Popes dispensation , sinneth not in that he doth , though the same be against Gods Law : contrary to Matth. 5.19 . Deut. 27.26 . Ier. 11.3 . Ioh. 3.4 . That the Pope is Christs Vicar , and yet may intermeddle with the earthly and temporall Kingdomes of this World : contrary to Christs owne practice , Luk. 12.14 . the nature of his Kingdome , Iohn 18.36 . against the nature of such spirituall weapons and power which God gaue to his Apostles , 2. Corint . 10.4 , 5 , 6. Yea , that the Pope may take vpon him ( as hee doth ) to haue to doe with those which are without , to wit , the Heathen , to giue away their Kingdomes , ( as he presumeth to doe with such as forsake him , whom hee iudgeth to bee Heretikes ) contrary to 1. Cor. 5.12 , 13. That his Clergie are exempted from ciuill iurisdiction : contrary to Christs commandement , Matth. 22.21 . to his practice , Matth. 17.27 . to Saint Peters teaching , 1. Pet. 2.13 , 14. and to Saint Pauls , Rom. 13.1 , 7. Tit. 3.1 . It were infinite to particularize all the differences betweene our Religion and theirs , wherin they are contrary to holy Scripture , and contrary to the tenne Commandements , the Creed , the Lords Prayer , and the two Sacraments . Of which if any desire herein instances to be better satisfied , let him reade Gabriel Powel , who hath purposely set downe a multitude of particulars . VI. And lastly , if none of the Martyrs were Papists , or ( as they please to call themselues ) Romane Catholiks ; then could they not bee their Martyrs : for they which bee not such , are not held to bee of their Romane Religion , nor Church . But none of these Martyrs were Papists , or Romane Catholikes ; for they held not these many differences of theirs from vs , by which a Papist becommeth a Papist or Romane Catholike , and without which hee is not by them approoued to be such a one . For let a man hold all other poynts of Christianity wholly and fully ; yet if he hold not , that the Pope hath authority , as Christs Vicar vpon earth : that the Church of Rome is the Mother and Mistresse of all Churches : that there are seuen Sacraments : that the Sacrament may be receiued in one kind : that the bread after consecration is transubstantiated , and Christ there corporally vnder the formes of Bread and Wine , and so to bee diuinely adored : that seruice is to bee said euery where in Latine : that Images are to bee set in Churches , and to bee worshipped : that Saints departed , are to bee prayed vnto , and their Reliques worshipped : that there is a Purgatory for penall satisfaction after this life : that our workes doe merit , and that we are iustified by them before God : that Ecclesiasticall persons may not marry : that confession of sinnes is to be made secretly to a Priest in his eare , and that hee hath power iudicially to absolue the confitents , and impose penance vpon them for satisfaction for sinne vnto God. These , and such like articles newly coyned , whosoeuer doth not hold , is not iudged to be a Romane Catholike But none of these differences did these Martyrs hold , much lesse euer suffered persecution for . For not one of these articles of the Trent Conuenticle was held in the time of these sorts of Martyrs , all of them suffering within the 600. yeeres after Christ , in which space was there none that might be called a Papist , or Roman Catholike after the definition of the Trentists . And therefore were they not their Martyrs , neither did any of them professe the now new Romane Trentisme . And thus wee see , how by these differences they cannot claime the Martyrs . Now our differences from them , are all grounded vpon Scriptures , and principles of Christianity , and warranted by such common truth of Christian Religion , as they and we doe fully accord in ; not one of our differences being either heresie , or any part of Iudaisme , or Paganisme , nor euer condemned by any generall Councell in the space of these first sixe hundreds of yeeres , in which these three sorts of Martyrs did liue . True it is , that our aduersaries call vs Heretikes , and lay heresies to our charge , but falsely , without iust proose , as our learned Whitacres , Bishop Morton , and others , shew in answering Bellarmine his calumnies herein to the full . Seeing then our differences and truths of Christian Religion , taught by the Apostles , and by the succeeding Pastors , and belieued by the Church , are the parts of that Faith and Religion , which these Martyrs suffered for ; I conclude , that in regard both of the truthes , wherein wee and our Aduersaries agree , and also of our differences , wherein we disagree from the now present Church of Rome , they were our Martyrs , and none of theirs . IV. Sort of Martyrs are those , who suffered by , and amongst these our aduersaries , as the Berengarians , Waldenses , Albigenses , Wicklife and his followers in England , Iohn Hus , and Ierome of Prague , at Constance , and many moe in Bohemia , and in other places , euen to Luthers time , and after , an innumerable multitude slaine and massacred , burnt , and put to sundry deathes for our Religion , and for gaine-saying our aduersaries in those differences , which we now stand out in , against the Church of Rome at this present . These were therefore our Martyrs . But our aduersaries will say , that these were no Martyrs , but condemned Heretikes . That they were Martyrs , & no Heretikes , its cleare . S. Iohn in the Reuelation , calleth those Saints and Martyrs of Iesus , Reuel . 17.6 . which should suffer for the Word of God , for refusing to worship the Beast and his Image , and for not receiuing his marke in their fore-heads , or in their hands , Reuel . 20.4 . and for keeping the Commandements of God , and the faith of Iesus , and so dying in the Lord , should rest from their labours , and be accounted blessed , Reuel . 14.12 , 13. But such were these our Martyrs , for they suffered for Gods Word , for keeping the Commandements and Faith of Iesus , and for refusing to worship the Beast and Whore of Rome ; drunke with the blood of the Saints . And therefore were blessed Martyrs , and no Heretikes . But they will say ; These held diuers errours , and were not in all things wholly with vs ? They suffered , and were Martyrs for those selfe-same things , which with vs they witnessed against the Church of Rome . II. Many errours are ascribed vnto them , which they neuer held , as Doctor Vsher Bishop of Meeth learnedly shewes . III. Though in some things they should haue differed from vs , yet doth not that make them not to be of our Religion . For if for lighter differences in opinions , men should be held not to be of the same Religion ( if so our aduersaries will conclude ) then are the now Romanists not of one and the same Religion , which is now professed at Rome : for one of them differs much from another in many things . Neither haue they any right to the ancient Fathers , betweene whom and these our aduersaries , is also great difference , and that in many things . These Martyrs therefore , though they might differ from vs in some things ( the Light then not shining so clearely , as now it doth ) were our Martyrs . Thus wee see all the Martyrs from the beginning , to be ours , and so haue our Aduersaries none at all , which may be properly called theirs , for the first 600. yeeres : For if they claime the first three sorts , it s but as they doe agree with vs ; for in their differences from vs , the Martyrs are none of theirs . The fourth sort are clearely our owne , and are Martyrs in defence of our differences from them . But for their differences , they haue no Mrrtyrs of Iesus : for such Martyrs as be his Martyrs , suffer for his sake , for Gods Word , for his Faith and Commandements : but their differences are not Gods Word , nor the Faith , nor Commandements of Iesus , neither suffered Papists here for Religion ; but for treason , rebellion , disloyall acts , for denying due obedience to lawfull authority , and for standing in defence of forraine power , and the authority of the Whore of Babylon , the murtherer of Saints , and of that Antichrist the Pope , as hee is prooued sufficiently so to bee . And therefore I conclude , our Religion to be before Luthers time . III. Argument . From the Writings of the ancient Fathers . THat Religion which is to be found in the writings of the ancient Fathers , as professed and taught by them , in the first 600. yeeres after Christ , that was before Luthers time . But this our present Religion ( in the poynts of doctrine wherin we differ from our Aduersaries ) is to be found in the writings of the ancient Fathers , as professed and taught by them in the first 600. yeeres after Christ . Therefore was this our present Religion ( in the poynts of doctrine , wherein wee differ from our Aduersaries ) before Luthers time . The Minor I thus prooue : All the differing Religions of greatest note , which were euer since Christs ascension , are one of these ; Iudaisme , Gentilisme , or Paganisme , Arianisme ( vnder which I comprehend all heresies ) Mahometisme , or Turcisme , the present Religion of the Church of Rome , which may be called Trentisme , or Iesuitisme , commonly called , Papistrie ; and this our Religion termed , The reformed Religion , or Protestancy ; which wee professe and teach with an vnanime consent in the Harmonie of Confessions , otherwise then the Church of Rome now doth . But those ancient Fathers taught not Iudaisme , nor Paganisme , nor Arianisme , or other heresies , which in those dayes rose vp , nor Mahometisme . Ergo , either the Religion of the now Church of Rome , or ours , with either of our differences one from another . But not so this of theirs . For those differences on their part , whereby a man becommeth a Romane Catholike , or Papist , the ancient Fathers , with one consent , neuer taught . The differences are mentioned before : for all which if they can produce the vnanime Consent of those Fathers in 600. yeeres space , we yeeld them the Fathers : but if not , then are they ours , as they that taught and professed our Religion . For they not onely taught all the maine poynts of faith , which we and our aduersaries doe agree in ; but also all the principall differences with vs , wherein we and our aduersaries doe differ , as Polanus hath largely prooued , to whose learned paines I referre the Reader . Therefore this our present Religion was before Luthers time . IV. Argument . From the witnesse of our very Aduersaries . THat Religion which is to be found in the publike records of the Church of Rome , and in the writings of learned men therein , from the very first foundation of it vnto this day ; that was before Luthers time . This ( I hope ) may passe for current . But this our present Religion is such a religion ; and therfore before Luthers time . The Minor , if they deny , is thus confirmed . I. There are amongst them the holy Scriptures , which they acknowledge to be the Word of God : but by those Scriptures may all our Religion be proued , and fully confirmed , in any thing wherein we differ from our aduersaries . And therefore this our Religion is to be found among them . II. There is that which is called , The Apostles Creed , and the Nicene Creed , which they professe , the Articles whereof we hold , and therein is contained the summe of our Faith. III. There is the Lords Prayer , the paterne of all true Prayers , according to which onely we teach how to pray aright , and thereafter doe frame our prayers . IV. There is the Decalogue and ten Commandements , which though defectiuely set downe in their Catechismes ( the second being left out ) yet are they wholly set downe in their Bibles , which ten Commandements are the summe of our morall obedience , and of our duties towards God , and our neighbours . V. They acknowledge the two Sacraments , Baptisme and the Lords Supper , both which we doe administer . VI. There are common tenents of Christianitie , which all Christian Churches haue euer held , wherein we & they doe fully agree . VII . There is their Seruice Booke , wherein though many abominations are to be found , yet in other things it iustifieth our Religion and Seruice : As may appeare by comparing our Seruice Booke with it ; out of which , ours was , for the substance thereof , taken . Against which they cannot iustly take exception ; neither are they able to prooue , by Gods Word , by the ancient Councels , and consent of the ancient Fathers , any thing Idolatrous , Heretical , or any way vnlawfull , wherein soeuer it differeth from theirs . VIII . There may also be found their accord in generall termes with vs , in those things , wherein for the particulars we and they bee at oddes , and doe disagree ; as Master Perkins giueth instance in one and twenty particulars ▪ and the like may be done in many other points . IX . And lastly , there is to be found all and euery point of our Religion particularly , wherein wee differ from them , which either wee affirme , or they deny ; or we denie , and they affrme ; and the same iustified by the writings of the learned amongst them . For proofe hereof , I referre the Reader to my Lord of Couentrie and Lichfield , his Catholike appeale , and Catholike Apologie , first and second parts ; to my Lord of Meeth , his booke de Chri. Eccles . succes . & statu ; to Illyricus , his Catalog . Test . Veritatis ; to Ioh. à Munster , his Nobilis Discursus ; to Doct. Feild , his fourth booke of the Church , who proueth seuen and twenty particulars of our maine differences out of their owne Writers . And if the writings of their learned men doe not iustifie our Religion , I would know , why they doe not suffer such writings to passe without purging ? For if such things were not for vs , and against them , they would not put out , nor alter , nor so indeed corrupt Authors , or inhibite them to passe abroad , as they doe : which one act of theirs sheweth , that our differences might bee prooued , euen by their owne Writers , if they might decide the controuersies betwixt vs and them . Thus we see , how our Religion is to be found amongst them , not onely in the points wherein wee doe agree , but euen in all our particular differences , in which wee stand out against the preualent faction of that Church , which alwaies hath ouer-borne the truth , which by others of more sound iudgement in that Church , hath been from time to time published and maintained . And therefore this our now present Religion was before Luthers time . V. Argument . From the beginning of our Religion here , before Austin the Monke came to this Iland . THat Religion which was here in this Iland of Great Britaine , before Austin the Monke came into it , that was before Luthers time : for this Monke came in many hundred of yeeres before Luther was borne . But this our present Religion was here in this Iland of Great Britaine , before Austin the Monke came into it . Therefore was it before Luthers dayes . The Minor I thus prooue : I. The Christian Religion taught at Ierusalem by the Apostles , and other Disciples of Christ , was our Religion , as by the first Argument is prooued from the Apostles writings . But that same Christian Religion was here taught , and that either by some Apostle , as Simon Zelotes ; or some Disciple of Christ , as Ioseph of Arimathea , * as some of our side haue prooued fully , and our Aduersaries yeeld vs. Now if that which was taught at Ierusalem was ours , then must it needs be ours , which Simon Zelotes , or Ioseph of Arimathea did here teach ; at the first planting of it , being before Austins time : for can any say , that these brought from Ierusalem hither , any other Religion , then the Apostles deliuered there ? II. That same Religion first taught , did continue here in succession from the Apostles dayes , and was held at Austins comming , as our aduersaries , the Apologists do proue , and doe take this also for an vndoubted truth , that the Britaine 's of Wales receiued the faith of Christ , by preaching of the Apostles , and held that Faith at Austins comming . Now the Faith taught by the Apostles , being the same with ours , as the holy Scriptures beare witnesse against all gaine-sayers ; it is cleare by the Apologists proofes , and their owne acknowledgement of the continuance thereof , from the very beginning , that this our present Religion was here in this Iland of Great Britaine , before Austins comming . III. Here were many which suffered Martyrdome in Dioclesians reigne , before Austines dayes , but it is prooued before in the second Argument , that all the Martyrs of Christ were of our Religion . And therefore was that our Religion , which was here before Austines time . IV. Before Austines comming , the Church of Christ here , was not subiect to the Romish Church : for first , they kept not their Easter after the Romish fashion , but as the Easterne Churches kept it , whence our Religion came . Now if they had been of the Romanists tutoring , the fierie spirit of Victor , who attempted to excommunicate the Easterne Churches , would haue compelled the Britains to haue kept their Easter , as hee did . Secondly , they administred Baptisme not after the ceremonious fashion of the Romanists . Thirdly , they refused to doe , what Austin required , neither would they acknowledge him their Archbishop , though sent from Rome by the Bishop there . Fourthly , both the Britaines , Scots , and Irish Bishops so vtterly reiected the Romish Bishops , as Bishop Daganus denied all communion with them , yea , and refused to eate bread with them in the same Inne ; so little regard had they then to the authoritie either of the Romish Church , or Romish Bishops . Yea , the Centurists , and other Protestants haue obserued out of Galfridus , that before Austines comming , there was here amongst the Britaines , the profession of more pure Christianity , then that which Austine brought from Rome . Its babbled out by our aduersaries , that this Austin conuerted this Iland : but this is most vntrue ; for Saint Aidan , and Saint Finan , were the Lords instruments to gaine many here to Christ . Saint Aidan recouered from Paganisme , the Kingdome of Northumberland , whereunto belonged ( besides Northumberland it selfe , the Lands beyond it , vnto Edenborow Frith ) these Countries , Cumberland , Westmerland , Lancashire , Yorkeshire , and the Bishopricke of Durham . Saint Finan regained not onely Essex and Middlesex , but also the large Kingdome of Mercia , conuerted first vnto Christianitie ; which Kingdome did comprehend vnder it these Countries ; Glostershire , Herefordshire , Worcestershire , Warwickshire , Leicestershire , Rutlandshire , Northamptonshire , Lincolneshire , Huntingtonshire , Bedfordshire , Buckingamshire , Oxfordshire , Staffordshire , Darbyshire , Shropshire , Nottingamshire , Cheshire , and halfe Hertfordshire . These holy men are they , which , vnder God , are to haue the prayse , and not Austin , who brought some , but few in comparison of these , to the profession of Christ : but withall , besmeared them with Romish superstitions . And such others as were already Christians , hee endeuoured to loade with humane inuentions , and vnnecessary ceremonies , and was ( if not the cause ) yet the occasion of the destruction of many , and of the miserable and mercilesse slaughter of the godly Monkes at Bangor , to the number of 1200. for that these poore Monkes would not submit to him , whom they saw to be too proud , and not so humble a man , as a man of God ought to haue been . V. That this our Religion was here before Austin , it may appeare by that publike doctrine of the Church which was taught about the time of Gregory , ( who sent in hither this Austin ) concerning the blessed Sacrament , altogether agreeing with our present doctrine , and plainely opposite to the doctrine of the now Church of Rome . For in an Homily of the Saxon Tongue , appointed to be preached on Easter day , throughout euery Church , the bread is acknowledged to be naturally corruptible bread , and corruptible wine ; truly Christs body and blood , yet not so bodily , but spiritually ; and nothing therein to be vnderstood bodily , but all spiritually . If this was the publike doctrine , so fully herein agreeing with vs , so contrary now to the Romish beliefe , in their transubstantiated bread ( for deniall whereof they haue murthered so many , and now hold it still so maine an article of their Romane beliefe , ) how can it be otherwise imagined , all things also before considered withall , but that the Religion then , was our religion now , and not this of the Church of Rome ? VI. It cannot be denied , if our Religion bee the same , which was planted by the Apostles in the Easterne Churches , from which our Religion was brought hither as is afore deliuered , but that then this our Religion was before Austines time . But that ours is the same , the Apostles writings written to the Churches shew . Secondly , an Apostle , or some Apostolicall men here taught it . Thirdly , the writings of the Greeke Fathers for 600. yeres space after Christ ( which is all the space from Christ to this Austin ) giue testimonie to our Religion in the maine points thereof , as is prooued before in the third argument . Fourthly , it is euident euen by those things , which yet the Churches at this day in those parts doe hold with vs , and wherein wee and they agree against the now Romish Religion . For the Greekes denie the Popes Supremacie , Purgatorie , and Prayer for the deliuerance of soules out of it , the necessitie of Auricular Confession , Meritorious satisfaction of the iustice of God , Transubstantiation , carued Images and Statues . They deny , that Saints departed , heare our Prayers . They administer the Sacraments in both kinds , and allow Ministers marriage . They mixe not water with wine , they vse not vnleauened bread . They admit not priuate Masses , nor the Circumgestation , or Adoration of the Sacrament , nor the publike seruice in an vnknowne tongue . They teach the assurance of saluation in Christ , and renounce the merit of workes . All which are opposite to the now Romish Religion , and are the truths of our Religion , taught by the Apostles , and holy ancient Fathers , from the beginning , in the Easterne Churches , wherein they are not falne from that which at first they receiued , as they be in some other things , which they teach and practise . VII . The Religion which we professe , is the same which was at Rome , at the time of the three conuersions of England , as they call them ; and therefore was this our Religion before Austines comming , and here professed when hee came in . The first conuersion was in the Apostles dayes ; but in their daies , was our religion at Rome , as Saint Pauls Epistle written to the Saints there , and other of his Epistles declare ; as also the Epistles of Saint Peter ( whom they would faine haue to haue been at Rome ) to which our Religion agreeth wholy and fully , wherein soeuer wee now differ from the present doctrine of the Church of Rome . Let their writings be Iudge , from which our aduersaries haue greatly erred , as is euidently prooued in all the maine poynts of the Christian Faith. And therefore was it our Religion then professed at Rome , and not this new Romish Faith. The second Conuersion they make to bee in Eleutherius dayes , who wrote , as they acknowledge , vnto our King here , called Lucius . If here was any conuersion wrought , it was to our Religion , and not to the present Romish Trentisme , as may be clearely gathered out of that Epistle of Eleutherius , and which they doe approue of , as written to the same Lucius . First , Eleutherius there telleth the King , that he had receiued the Law and Faith of Christ . Secondly , ( as hereby shewing him where this Law and Faith was to bee found ) he telleth him againe immediatly vpon these former words , that he had receiued both the parts of the scriptures . Thirdly , he so commendeth the Scriptures to the King and his Councell , that thence , by Gods grace , they themselues might take a Law to rule the Kingdome . This Bishop did not take vpon him to prescribe them Lawes , hee alloweth them ( being Lay persons , as they now speake ) to meddle with the holy Scriptures , and from thence ( and not from him , nor from his Lawes , nor from the Lawes of the Romanes ) to take a Law to liue by . This Bishop therefore held the Scripture sufficient for a direction and guide to a whole Kingdome ; hee held them not so obscure , but that the King and his Councell ( by Gods grace ) though but young Christians , might learne out of them the wil of God , how hee would haue a Christian Kingdome gouerned . Fourthly , this godly Bishop calleth Lucius Gods Vicar in his owne Kingdome , and alleageth Scripture to prooue it ; hee was not then swolne vp with the pride of Antichristian Supremacy , nor conceited any temporall power ouer kings , as now the Popes doe . Lastly , hee puts wholly the care of the people vpon the King , as a Father to looke to his children , to call them to the Faith and Law of Christ , and to the holy Church , hereby acknowledging the King to bee the supreme Head and Gouernour in all causes , aswell Ecclesiasticall , as Ciuill , and to be Gods Vicar in his owne Realme ; which title that Bishop twice nameth in that Epistle . Thus we see out of this short Epistle , what we may thinke of the Religion then at Rome , and how agreeing to ours now , and differing from theirs at this present . The third conuersion ( for which they magnifie so much this Austin , but very falsely ) was in Gregorie the Great his dayes . In which time , though many corruptions were crept into the Church of Rome : yet the maine points of our differences , wherein we differ from this present Romish superstition , were then taught in that Church , as may appeare out of the writings of Gregorie , as he did then teach , concerning holy Scriptures , the grace of God , of Freewill , of the Law , of iustification , of Faith , of good Workes , also concerning the not worshipping of Images , likewise of the acknowledging of the two Sacraments , also his iudgement of the Church , of the head of the Church , of Antichrist , of an vniuersall Bishop , of secular power ouer Bishops , of Marriage , of soules departed , and whither they went. Gregorie was no Patrone of the Romish Masse , nor of the corporall and transubstantiated bread , nor of merit , nor of Papall supremacy , nor of temporall iurisdiction ouer Kings and Emperours , nor of the necessitie of Ceremonies alike in euery Church . Gregorie held not the Machabees canonicall , but taught the perfection of Canonicall Scripture ; he exhorted Lay men to the studie of them , and in his time the Scriptures were allowed , and prayers were said in a knowne and vulgar tongue : he held the Catholike Church to be the elect , and the reprobate out of it , and was against marriages within degrees forbidden , Leuit. 18. Thus we see that at the three conuersions , our Religion now , and that at Rome then , was one and the same . Neither can our aduersaries shew the contrary from Scripture , from the vniforme consent of ancient Fathers , either Greeke or Latine , or from generall Councels within those times , no nor from the Bishops of Rome themselues , for that space ; if they will make conscience to deale squarely , plainly and honestly in their proofes . And that they may so doe , I would entreate to lay aside , first , all counterfeite Decretall Epistles such as those be , which are ascribed to the Bishops of Rome in the first 300 yeeres , as our learned men haue prooued both by reasons , and from the testimonie of the learned among them . Secondly , those partly corrupted , and partly also counterfeit Decretall Epistles , in the next 300. yeeres . Thirdly , all the counterfeite and corrupt Canons of Councels . Fourthly , all the bastard writings put vpon the ancient Fathers . Fifthly , the places corrupted in any of their writings . If they will cast off this great and wicked deceite , in alleaging these for themselues , the truth of my assertion , That this our Religion was then at Rome , and not this their present Romish faith , will manifestly appeare to all men not wilfully blinded , for by and worldly respects . Lastly , the Christian Religion first planted in Ireland , was before Austins comming in hither . For , as is afore spoken , Scottish and Irish Christian Bishops withstood him at his comming . But that which was then receiued , and professed by the ancient Irish , was for substance the very same , which is now here in England by publike authoritie maintained , as is substantially proued by a godly learned Father in all Antiquities of the Church , the Lord Bishop of Meeth ; to which I referre euery Reader , which desireth to bee satisfied in theirs , and our agreement about Scripture translations , predestination , freewill , the Law , sinne , free remission of sins , iustification by faith onely , imperfection of sanctification , merit , purgatory , and soules departed , about Gods worship , Images , the Masse , communicating in both kinds , and the mysticall receiuing of the Sacrament . That Learned man doth shew , how wee and they doe agree in all these things , which are the most maine points of faith betwixt our aduersaties and vs. And therefore I conclude from this , and all that formerly hath been produced in this fifth Argument , that this our present Religion was heere in this Iland before Austines time . VI. Argument . From God the Author , and continuall Preseruer of our Religion , against all oppositions . THat Religion which is of God , was before Luthers time : for that which is of God , cannot bee ascribed to man ; nor so new , as the late dayes of Luther . For the true Religion is the most ancient , and this is the good way to be found in the old wayes , and not in new inuentions , and new by-paths . But our Religion is of God , which I thus prooue : It was taught by the Prophets and Apostles , messengers of God : the Prophets were sent by him , 2. Chron. 36.16 . 2. King. 17.13 . Ier. 25.4 . by whom God spake , Heb. 1.1 . and they taught and wrote , as the holy Ghost directed them , 2. Pet. 1.21 . 2. Tim. 3.25 . The Apostles were sent of God , Matth. 10.5 . Mark. 16.16 . Gal. 1.1 , 12. and spake , as God by his Spirit directed them , Matth. 10.20 . Ioh. 14.26 . These were the publishers of our Religion , both in the common truthes of our Christianitie , as also in the differences from our aduersaries . And for proofe , wee appeale to the Apostles and Prophets extant writings . Our Religion is written in those holy Scriptures , the Booke of God , as before is prooued . It is propagated and preserued by such meanes , as be ordained of God , of which also before . It is receiued , beleeued , conscience made of it , onely by the operation of the Spirit of God. It bringeth men to the true knowledge of God , to beleeue onely in God , to worship onely God , onely to honour God , and to be ruled onely after the will of God. It s onely vpheld and preserued by Gods , and not by mans power . This will easily bee granted , if men consider what weake meanes , in mans iudgement , hath spred it abroad , and brought it into esteeme with such as professe it truly , ( to wit ) onely preaching , praying , and constantly suffering in the defence thereof . Also , the small number , and meanenesse of the persons for the most part , which haue from the dayes of Iesus Christ , made profession thereof ; and withall , the little worldly policy vsed for helpe to support it . But on the other side , if the enemies thereof be well considered , who haue continued from the beginning of the Gospell , perpetually endeuouring to vndermine our Religion , euery one will yeeld it to be the very hand of God , that maintaineth it . The multitude of them out of the Church are infinite ; as Iewes , Gentiles , Saracens , Turkes , and a world of other Infidels . The Heretikes which haue risen vp , and gone out from the true Church , and haue laboured to shake the very foundation of our Christian Faith , very many . The Hypocrites and prophane , are too many , which professing the same together with vs , yet are deadly enemies to the effectuall operation thereof , denying the power of it , and deriding such as striue to liue strictly , and would expresse the liuely vertue and force of it . What diuisions , what varietie of sects and schismes , haue , and doe yet hinder the growth of our Religion ? And lastly , these last Enemies of it , the Papists , vnder that Antichrist of Rome ; against whom , if God himselfe had not fought , and vpheld our Religion , they had ere this , vtterly extinguished it . And who will denie this , that seriously considereth our simplicitie , and their deepe policie ; our too much distractions , their strong combination ; our small strength , their great power ; our meane estates , their abundance of wealth and treasures ; our more then supine carelesnesse , their continuall watchfulnesse , and daily endeuours , which possibly Satan can put into their hearts , to root out our holy profession ? as by their cruell Inquisition , mercilesse persecution , barbarous Massacres , horrible Treasons , vniust Inuasions , bloody Warres , the neuer to be forgotten Gunpowder plot , killing of Kings , faithlesse and treacherous dealings , playing fast and loose with vs by lying Equiuocations , and mentall Reseruations , in all couenants , promises , and oathes : besides their shamelesse belying our persons , foule and false taxing vs of errours and heresies , imputed to our doctrine and Religion , Libertinisme , Atheisme , and other abominations ; their flattering of Kings , and suggestion of falshoods of disloyaltie against such , as they find best affected to our Religion ; their politike framing of their religion for worldly respects , to euery mans humor , to entangle the sooner mens minds , to get the more to them ; besides all those hellish deuices before mentioned in the first argument , among which is the corrupting of Fathers , and the Writings of learned men , both old and new , that so we might be altogether destitute of all humane testimonies to witnesse with vs , or any helpe of man , but to be left to stand ( as indeed wee doe ) by the hand of God , the onely Author of our Faith and Religion , and the onely blessed Preseruer of the same hitherto , before Luther was borne ; who now also euen in these troublesome times doth keepe it on foote , against all the power and policie of our Enemies , praysed bee his holy Name for euer and euer , Amen . If our Aduersaries thinke , that here is all that can be said for vs , or that onely we can thus prooue our Religion , they are much deceiued : for much more may bee said , and also otherwise , euen by Historie , may our Religion , and the Professours be shewed at large . This , for the present , is onely to confirme such , as in our Church truly feare God , and make conscience of their wayes : for such doers of Gods will shall know , whether this doctrine be of God , or no , Ioh. 7.17 . THE AVTHORS FARTHER HELPE TO stay the honest-hearted Protestant from Apostacie . WEl-disposed Reader , thou hast an answer to the question , Where our Religion was before Luther ? If yet further they aske thee , Where were the Professors thereof also before this time ? Thou mayst thence shape them this answere , Euen where the Apostles and Apostolicall men did teach it , and where Saints professed it , and Martyrs dyed for it . It is not so difficult a matter , as they would make the world beleeue , to bring forth in euery Age the Professours of this our Christian Faith. A harder and a more impossible taske is it , for them to prooue from Christ and his Apostles , who , and where the persons were , that in euery Age made an intire profession of euery point , which now this their present Romish Church teacheth and practiseth . We will doe the former , if they will faithfully performe this latter . They haue set out , as they call it , a Catalogue of chiefe Pastors , Generall Councels , and Catholike Professors , of which they much glory , seducing therewith the simple and vnaduised . They doe begin with Christ , then follow they on with Saint Peter , and other Bishops of Rome on the one side : on the other , they place the Virgin Marie , Iohn Baptist , Saint Iohn the Apostle , with other Apostles and Euangelists : then they reckon vp Christian Churches , as the Romans , Corinthians , Galatians , and the rest , to whom Saint Paul and Saint Peter wrote ; and so they run on along to the end . Now this is it , that thou shouldest demand of them , and put them to proue , whether Christ and his Apostles taught , and all the rest there mentioned , did learne and practise , all that the Church of Rome now doth ? If they can shew this but in the first hundred of yeeres , professe thou to be satisfied , and not to require farther after a continuall succession in the Ages following . Presse this home to them , stand onely vpon this ; this is plaine dealing , to begin with them , where they begin . And if they will not indeuour to satisfie thee in this , certainely the Catalogue of the names of Christ , of his Apostles , and the rest in the Primitiue Church , are put onely in the forefront to coozen thee , if they can . For will they begin it with Christ , Saint Peter , and the rest , and yet not proue them of their present Religion ? If they can , why doe they it not ? Why doe they seeke to put it off ? If they cannot , why claime they these , for the authors and maintainers of this their present Romish Religion ? I say , their present Romish Religion ; because there is a great difference betweene the Religion once at Rome in the Apostles dayes , and the Religion of Rome now ; that of the Church then , this of the Court and faction there now . And here I pray thee wel vnderstand this one thing , to wit , what they meane by their Religion , as we also doe by our Religion ; we neither side took it only for that wherein we both do agree , but chiefely because of the distinct differences thereof either from the other : this obserue , that thou mayst not be deceiued by the Catalogue . And the better to cleare thy iudgement therein , let them shew thee , that Iesus Christ , that also his Apostles , with the rest , in the first hundred of yeeres , taught not onely that , wherein wee and they doe agree ( for so they gaine nothing to themselues , but the Catalogue therein serues for vs , aswell as for them ) but also that they taught and obserued all their now present differences from vs : as for example , let them shew that then was taught , and the Churches learned ; I. To picture the holy Trinitie , to make Images , to worship them , to adore the Virgin Marie , as our Lady , and the Queene of Heauen : also to pray vnto other Saints and Angels , and to adore their Images and Reliques . II. To hold the Scriptures to be imperfect and obscure , that the Apocryphall bookes were of diuine Authoritie , the Latine Translation was to bee authenticall , that Traditions were to be added to perfit the Scriptures , concerning necessarie matters of saluation ; that the authoritie of the holy Scriptures doth depend vpon the authoritie of the Church ; that they are not to be made so free , as to be read and studied of all without licence . III. To hold seuen Sacraments , that Baptisme is to bee administred with hallowed Water , with Chrysme , Salt , Spittle , Coniuring , and other deuices . IV. To beleeue , that the Priest may receiue the Sacrament alone , and yet many other Christians to be there present looking on : that the Bread without the Cup , is to bee giuen to the people : that after the words of consecration , the Bread is turned into the very naturall body of Christ , the accidents of Bread and Wine onely remaining , but not the substance : that it is to be adored and prayed vnto , and to be carried about in Procession : that it is to bee administred with such varietie of garments , alterations of gestures , and change of voyce : that it is a propitiatorie sacrifice for the quicke and the dead . V. To make prayer , to administer the Sacraments , and to say all diuine Seruice in an vnknowne Tongue ; to say the Creed amongst Prayers , the Aue Marie as a prayer , with the Pater noster vpon Beades with Crosses , and that to a certaine number , repeating the Aue Marie fortie times , and the Pater noster foure times , with a Creed at the end : that many thus praying , though they vnderstand not the words which they vtter , yet hauing a good intent , they do a work pleasing to God. VI. To hold the Church of Rome to bee the Mother Church , the onely One , Holy , Catholike , and Apostolike Church : that it could not erre , and that all which should not beleeue euer , as it beleeueth , should not bee held for sound Christians , and such as should not submit to her authoritie , to be held Heretikes . VII . To hold the Pope of Rome to bee Christs Vicar , and Peters successor : that all should depend vpon him , as vpon their Head : that he as Pope cannot erre è Cathedrâ : that to him , as of right , belongeth the spirituall and temporall iurisdiction , and so hath authoritie to make Lawes , to bind conscience , to depose Kings , and to dispose of their Kingdomes : that he and his Clergy are exempt from the authoritie of Secular power . VIII . To hold seuen degrees of Priesthood : that there are sacrifizing Priests , in the time of the Gospell : that all the Clergie are to liue a single life . IX . To set vp high and worldly dignities in the Church , as Kingly Cardinals , Prince-like vnpreaching Prelates and Pastors ouer Congregations , not able to teach them : to allow infinite Orders of Monkes , Friers and Nunnes . X. To beleeue , that there is a Limbus Patrum , a Limbus Infantium , and a place called Purgatorie . In their Catalogue they are to bring Christ , his Apostles , and all the rest therein named , for teachers and professours of these things and the like , else are they not to be reputed of this their present Religion . Vrge them ( friendly Reader ) vnto the proofe of these particular differences ; till then , keepe thy right standing , and be not mooued with a shew of names . In the meane space , that thou mayest be well assured , that thou art a true member of the Catholike Church of Christ , though no Romane Catholike , haue recourse vnto thy baptisme , and the Couenant which God made with thee , and thou with him therein . Aske them ( when any of them goeth about to seduce thee ) whether they thinke , that thou hast receiued true baptisme ? If they say , Yea , ( as they cannot answere truly otherwise , though wee were baptized of very condemned Heretikes , as the Trent Councel decreeth ) then demand of them againe , Whether true baptisme doth admit the baptized into the true Church of God , or no ? If it doe , know of them , that then being thereby receiued into the true Church , why thou and wee so baptized , should not still be of it in their account ? Will them to shew , what we teach and beleeue , differing from them , that hath disannulled our Couenant with God , and how we come to bee out of the Church ? The Romane Catechisme ( which with them is of great authority ) telleth vs , that men are out of the Church , as Infidels , which neuer were in it ; as Heretikes , Schismatiks , and Excommunicated persons , once of it ; whereto may be added , such as be Apostates , wholly renouncing Christ . Taking this for granted , that these be all , and then that we be none of these , it must needs follow , that we are through Baptisme yet in the true Church . I hope , our aduersaries will not say , that wee be either of the first , or last sort : let them cleare vs of that , and wee will well enough acquit our selues of the rest . I. We are not ( though they so call vs commonly ) Heretikes : If they please , let the Catholike Moderator pleade for vs , or let them beleeue their owne moderate Answerer ( to whom my L. of Couentry and Lichfield maketh reply ) who saith , that he supposeth , that no one particular learned Catholike in this Kingdome , doth , or will defend this opinion , That Protestants are Heretikes , and excommunicate . If these on their side will not be sufficient to cleare vs , let vs learne from them , what an Heretike is , and so cleare our selues thereby . An Heretike ( saith the Romane Catechisme ) is he which neglecting the Churches authority , doth maintaine impious opinions obstinately . By this wee cannot be proued to bee Heretikes , this cannot agree to vs. For first , we may demand , What impious opinions either affirmatiue , or negatiue , doe we hold , which they can iustly task vs of ? Let them instance what pleaseth them , and then prooue the same to be heresie : first , by plaine and pregnant places of holy Scripture , which may conuince the conscience of indifferēt men . Secondly , by general Councels , or by any one generall Councell within 600. yeres after Christ ( in which space were most famous & renowned Councels ) that hath condemned any maine doctrine of our Faith for heresie . Thirdly , by the vnanimous consent , and generall voyce of the Greeke and Latine Fathers , for that space condemning the same for heresie , and for an impious opinion . Let them , if they be able , shew , first , in our faith , that wee hold any thing , against any Article of our Creed , which is the summe of our beliefe . Secondly , in our prayers , any thing against the patterne of all true prayers , commonly called , The Lords Prayer . Thirdly , in our deeds , which we teach to be done , or bid to be left vndone , any thing against any of the Commandements in the Decalogue , the rule of our obedience . If they can thus fairely and euidently proceede , they should doe well so to conuince vs. Secondly , if any impious opinions could be found among vs , it must be considered , whether they be broched by priuate persons , or tenents held of the Church in her publike Records : If the former , then are they not the Churches ; if the Church should hold any such , how can they proue , that she maintaineth them obstinately ? For obstinacy is not to be imputed vnto vs , till all lawfull , good , and sufficient meanes haue been vsed to conuince our iudgement , and the same also by such , as haue lawfull and full authority to iudge and determine thereof . But hitherto this hath not been done , neither can it be , but by a lawfull and free generall Councell , which the Conuenticle of Trent was not : till then we are not to be condemned of obstinacy , and so as yet no Heretikes . Thirdly , we neither haue neglected , nor yet doe neglect the true Catholike Churches authority , into which wee are receiued by Baptisme . For we very willingly desire to heare her sentence : but where can that bee , except in a generall Councels determination ? therein to heare the Catholike Church speaking to vs from the Scriptures , we greatly long for , we readily submit vnto . Let her thus speak , that we may know her Iudgement , and we will hearken thereunto . As for the Church of Romes authoritie , we doe not acknowledge it ouer vs , because it is not , nor euer was in her best estate , the Catholike Church , but onely a particular Church , which now also is a party questioned . And therfore her authoritie for her selfe against vs , is no more of vs to be regarded , then by them our Churches authority for her selfe against them . Seeing then that by their definition , wee are not conuinced of heresie , wee are not out of the Church as Heretikes . II. Not as Schismatikes . For albeit we haue no departed from this Romish Church , yet are we no Schismatikes . First , for that we keepe communion with the Catholike Church , into which we by Baptisme were admitted , which is the body of Christ , and wee truly members thereof , in faith and loue , through the worke of Gods Spirit , being built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Iesus Christ himselfe being the Corner-stone . Secondly , because this Church of Rome hath falne from the faith and obedience commended by S. Paul , to be in the Church at Rome in his time , as appeareth in many particulars before named , which the Church first planted at Rome , neuer taught , neuer beleeued , nor practised : Therefore are we no Schismatikes for leauing her in those things , wherein she hath left the true and Apostolike Church at the beginning . Thirdly , for that wee doe not breake off from her simply , but in some respect , that is , as farre foorth as she hath forsaken her former selfe ; so that if shee would returne to the Catholike Faith and Religion , and forsake her Trentisme , Iesuitisme , and Popery , the inuentions of her owne , added to that which first she did professe , wee want not charitie towards her , to vnite our selues vnto her againe . For otherwise , neither our true loue to God , nor true loue to his Church , will suffer vs to liue with her , so defiled as she is , in the spirituall bond of sacred loue , which knits the true members of Christ one to another . Heauenly charity , which maketh this vnitie , admitteth not of such things into the vnitie of faith , as bee taught and practised in that Church , both sinfull against God , and pernicious to mens soules , yea , vtter destruction to them , without hearty repentance . Fourthly , wee haue a warrant , yea , a commandement from God , to separate our selues from her , for that she is become the great Whore , and spirituall Babylon , Reuel . 18.4 . This charge of God freeth vs from Schisme : for there is no sin , no Schisme , in that which God commandeth to be done . Fifthly , we by leauing this Romish Church , doe not deuide our selues from the true , Catholike and Apostolike Church , but by this separation doe we indeed returne to the vnitie of it , and to our first blessed estate therein , when first the Gospell was here planted in this Iland by Apostles , or Apostolicall men , which came hither , not from Rome , but from Ierusalem , our Mother Church , where the Lord and his blessed Apostles first began to teach , and erect a Church , which is the Church we returne vnto in doctrine and worship of God : from which Holy , Catholike , and Apostolike Church , wee were drawne by the vsurping and tyrannical power and iurisdiction of the Pope and his faction , and the generall backsliding of this his Church . So as this which they call Schisme , is no Schisme in vs , but a forsaking of schisme in them , and is only a returning vnto , and a recouerie of our selues againe to our former vnion with Christs true Church , beginning at Ierusalem , and planted here many hundred yeeres , before the Monke Austin euer came into England . Sixthly , They are properly called Schismatikes ( saith Aquinas ) which of their owne accord and will , separate themselues from the vnitie of the Church . If this be true in the iudgement of this their owne so greatly honoured Doctor , then certainely wee are no Schismatikes . First , of our owne accord and will we make not a separation , but are inforced therto by the power of Gods commandement , to come out of this Babylon , to auoyde her sinnes , to escape thereby her punishments . She her selfe hath caused deuision , and offences , contrary to the doctrine which shee once receiued , as the Epistles of S. Paul and S. Peter , do in many particulars witnesse against her . The Apostle S. Paul therefore wils vs to auoyde her , and such as cause deuision and offences , contrary to the Apostles doctrine , Rom. 16.17 . It may seeme from hence that a faction begun euen then among you . Secondly , we doe not separate from the Church , that is , from the vniuersall Catholike Church , but from a Church , that is , the particular Church of Rome : for Thomas doth not say , He is a Schismatike , which separateth from a Church , but from the vnitie of the Church , to wit , the Church vniuersall , which is but one . For indeed , no reason can bee giuen , why any should deuide themselues from the true Catholike Church : but good reasons may be giuen , why a particular Church may be , and ought to bee forsaken ; as wee doe giue , for our departing from the Church of Rome : for we are commanded to forsake Idolaters , 1. Cor. 5.11 . Heretikes , Tit. 3.10 . such as bring not the doctrine of Christ , and doe not abide therein , 2. Ioh. 10. and her that is called Babylon , Reuel . 18.4 . Thirdly , before we can be Schismatikes , we must forsake the vnitie of the Church . Now wherein stands this vnitie ? Standeth it only in affection of loue , or also in the faith of the truth ? For both these graces the Apostle commendeth the Churches , Ephes . 1.15 . 2. Thes . 1.3 . and faith is preferred to the first place in both Scriptures . We haue not forsaken the vnitie of the Faith , of which S. Paul speakes , Eph 4.13 . For we teach the doctrine of the Apostles , and no other in any thing , when we differ from this present Church of Rome , which hath lost her first faith , of truth in many things . Now , can true diuine loue be there kept , where faith is lost ? or can there be charitie to vnite , where doctrine doth deuide ? Can light and darkenesse , truth and falsehood cohabite in loue ? Truth and loue onely dwell together ; and for truths sake , loue separateth from falshood , wheresoeuer she finds it . And therefore except they can proue , that we haue lost the vnitie of faith , wee haue not forsaken the vnitie of the Church in loue , as the former reasons shew . To conclude , were the Priests and Leuites Schismatikes , which left the people of Israel , once the people of God in Dauids and Salomons dayes , and many hundred yeeres before , when Idolatrie , vnder pretence to worship no false , but the true God , was set vp , and they not suffered then to do their office vnto the Lord , as their office required ? If they were not , no more are we . For why doe we forsake the Romish Church ? Is it not , because she hath set vp a new manner of seruice vnto God , new kinds of Priests , new Holy-dayes , new Sacraments , new Orders , and will not permit the Lords Seruants and Ministers to do their Offices vnto the Lord , as he hath by his written Word prescribed ? Therefore seeing we are not guiltie of Schisme , we are not as Schismatikes out of the Church , into which by Baptisme wee are receiued . III. Not as excommunicate persons . For if we be neither Heretikes , nor Schismatikes , vpon what other ground will they iudge vs to be proceeded against ? There are other causes , for which men are excommunicate : but in this question our aduersaries cannot pleade any such . Againe , I aske , if wee bee excommunicate , who hath pronounced the sentence ? Is it the Romish Church ? By what authoritie ? Their Church is not the Catholike Church , but only a particular , as ours is , and it is by vs questioned , and therefore in reason it cannot bee both a Partie accused , and also a Iudge against vs in her owne cause . Thirdly , we doe appeale from her vnrighteous iudgement , to a lawfull generall Councell , where , vpon earth , our cause is onely to bee heard and decided lawfully . Till which time , wee ( for any censure of this Church of Rome ) doe remaine in the true Church , into which by Baptisme wee are admitted ; out of which , as yet , we are not lawfully iudged to bee , by any lawfull and supreme authoritie , as either Heretikes , Schismatikes , or as excommunicate persons . Therefore ( Christian-harted Reader ) thou that art a member of the Church of England , though thou beest no Romanist , assure thy soule , that thou art of that Church , which is vndoubtedly a member of the True , Ancient , Catholike , and Apostolike Church , in which abiding , thou maist , through the merits of thy blessed Sauiour , obtaine eternall life , if thou so beleeuing doest demeane thy selfe , as it becommeth a good Christian , and a Protestant in earnest . And for thine owne more certaine assurance and stable abiding , let me aduise thee to a few things . Haue a care to keepe thy Couenant in thy Baptisme , that thou mayst be better perswaded , that God keepes his with thee , and so to be one of his in the true Church . Labour to feare God , for it is the beginning of wisdome , and the secrets of the Lord are with such as feare him , and he will shew them his couenant , Psal . 25.14 . Haue euer a loue of the truth , and God will not giue thee ouer to beleeue lyes : for this is a iudgement befalling such as loue not the truth , beleeue it not , but take pleasure in vnrighteousnesse . Be a doer of the Word , and thou shalt know the doctrine , whether it bee of God , or no. Beware of affected ignorance , and carelesse neglect of knowledge , but vse the meanes appointed to attaine vnto it . Exercise thy selfe much in prayer , beg of God wisdome , and hee will giue it thee ; his Spirit , and he will vouchsafe it thee ; pray against sedition , and God will keepe thee ; frequent the company of such as haue knowledge , the feare of God before them , the loue of the truth in them , and make conscience of their wayes . Aske aduice of faithfull Teachers , listen not to false Teachers , feare to be seduced . And further , that thou mayst both defend the truth , and also be able according to thy measure receiued , to resist the aduersaries ; I. Learne carefully the truthes of God , necessarie to saluation , set downe in holy Scriptures . Such truths are very manifestly and plainely deliuered , either in expresse termes , or by an vndoubted consequent drawne from thence : and all such necessarie points as concerne all , are written in the Scriptures , as their Bellarmine confesseth . With these Scriptures acquaint thy selfe , and being an ordinarie Christian , doe not trouble thy selfe about obscure places : for plaine and easie places will bee sufficient to confirme thy faith in any thing necessarie for thee , to beleeue and practize in the way of saluation . II. Be well grounded in the Catechisme , the parts whereof are the Creed , the Lords Prayer , the Decalogue , and the doctrine of the Sacraments : for these are the compendium , or short summe of all Christianitie . These well vnderstood , will furnish thee with reasons to withstand seducers . There is not any thing of which they shall speake , but the same may be brought to some head in Catechisme , as either concerning Faith , and so referred to the Creed , or concerning Prayer , and so referred to the Lords Prayer , or concerning obedience , and so referred to the Decalogue , or ten Commandements , or else touching the Sacraments , the Seales of our Faith. III. Adde to these , certaine considerations , by which thou mayest defend the truth , and ouerthrow falshood , as the common law of Nature , common reason , right vse of senses , common experience , common equitie , common charitie , common honestie , the witnesse of knowne Martyrs ; whereto adde the corruption of our nature , allowing or disliking of any thing . By the plaine euidence of Scripture , by the Catechisme , and by these considerations , mayst thou trie all things , which be necessarie for thee to stand vpon . If a seducer come to thee , and that he will needs deale with thee , obserue two things ; first , not to regard what he saith ; if it be not about necessarie points . Secondly , see that his confirmation , or confutation , bee onely by either some , or all these three aforenamed ; to wit , plaine Scriptures , the parts of the Catechisme , and those considerations , from whence if hee cannot proue his assertions , beleeue him not . If he begin to tell thee of Councels , ancient Fathers , and the Churches custome in all Ages : answere him , first , that the three former are knowne to thee , the Bible common at hand , the Catechisme in thy remembrance , and the consideration of such as are without difficultie : but as for these three last , great reading , and learning , and knowledge in Historie , are required to vnderstand them well , and to cite them truly . They are for the best learned of the world , and not for any of the common sort : ordinarie men cannot iudge aright by them , neither will any such presume , to thinke such abilitie to be in them , if they would take notice of diuers things concerning Councels , Fathers , and the Churches custome . I. Touching Councels , they must know , that they are not only subiect to errour , but also haue erred : that they haue contradicted one another : that some of them haue been carried by a strong faction : that ancient Fathers would not rest euer vpon the sole authoritie of Councels : that Papists themselues , though they pretend them , yet doe not wholly resigne their iudgement vnto them : that there are some counterfeite and forged Councels , and counterfeite Canons added to true Councels . Can an ordinarie man then iudge of these things ? And if he cannot , let him not be deceiued by pretence of them . II. Touching the ancient Fathers , this they must know , that they are found to be of differing opinions , and had contentions among themselues : that they held not their owne iudgements infallible , nor submitted to one another otherwise then men godly and learned doe now , but onely as by good reason and authoritie they were ouercome : that they haue erred ; and this is acknowledged by most learned men on both sides : that our aduersaries of the greatest note , do often shake off their authoritie , when they are against them : that of the Fathers writings , some are doubted of , some are corrupted , and many counterfeites are put out vnder their names : that the iudgement of all the Fathers cannot be had for all our controuersies . These things being so , how idle is it then for ordinarie men to be talking of Fathers , of the opinion of all the Fathers , or for any such men to be carried away with such a sound , which is not possible for them to vnderstand , seeing our aduersaries alleage them for their selues , and we more truly for our selues ? III. Concerning the Churches custome and path in euerie age , let them consider , that this is very vncertaine . Historians haue not alwaies in euery relation bin found faithfull : that euerie Age hath not had in it such as haue truly written of the Church : that a man may spend his whole life , in seeking out the whole Churches course , and yet not be able to find it out . I suppose , I erre not , if I say , that all men now liuing , cannot do it exactly in euery Age. And therefore it s but a gulling flourish of our aduersaries , to boast of the whole Church in euery Age , and yet withall , so boasting fraudulently to meane their owne particular Romane Church . By alleaging then these arguments , to wit , Councels , Fathers , and the generall custome of the whole Church , the conscience of an ordinarie Christian cannot bee throughly satisfied , his knowledge cannot herein bee certaine to conuince his iudgement , these are beyond his reach and capacitie . Be aduised therefore not to be drawne with these reasons , which are to thee so vncertaine , but rest vpon the other which be plaine and easie , within thy capacitie , and certaine vnto thee ; by which thou mayst , through Gods helpe , maintaine that which thou professest , and confute the aduersaries vntruths , or at least , gather thence such strength , as they shall not easily draw thee to beleeue them : as for instance , in some particulars I wil shew thee . They say , that the Pope is the head of the Catholike Church . There is no plaine Scripture for this . We find Iesus Christ to be called the Head of the Church , but no other . It s no Article of our Creed ; therefore thou art not bound to beleeue it . But I adde this , that what we beleeue , is inuisible , Heb. 11.1 . and not seene , 2. Cor. 5.7 . If therefore the Pope be the Head , there must be a visible head , of an inuisible body . Againe , the head immediately giues life , motion , and direction to its true body , which the Pope cannot doe to Christs Church . It s also vnreasonable to thinke , two heads to bee for one body ; whether one besides another , or one vnder another , it is a monstrousity . Common experience testifieth against the Popes inabilitie to performe the true office of the true Head to Gods Church . They say , that he cannot erre . Let it be taken in the best sense they can conceiue it , there is no plaine Scripture which giueth this , to any one particular person . It s no Article of our Creed to beleeue it , experience hath found him to haue erred foully . They say , that after the words of consecration , the bread is turned into the very body of Christ , and the wine into his bloud , so as Iesus Christ is there corporally , as he was borne of the Virgin Marie , vnder the accidents of bread and wine . In holy Scripture there is no such thing taught , there is a sacramentall phrase , This is my Body ; and the like vsed in the Sacraments of the old Testament , This is my Couenant , Gen. 17.10 . This is the Lords Passeouer , Exo. 12.11 . The Rocke was Christ , 1. Cor. 10.4 . but yet no turning one substance into another . The Creed teacheth vs to belieue him to be in heauen , and thence to expect his comming , when hee shall appeare to iudge the quicke and the dead . This transubstantiation therefore is no part of our Faith. It s against reason , for a true body , and continued quantitie , to be in two places , yea , in a thousand mouthes at once . The Angels reason vnto Marie , Mat. 28.6 . confuteth this grosse opinion ; for he said to her , when she with the other Marie came to seeke Christ ; He is not here , for hee is risen : that is , He is not in this place , because he is else-where in another . If Christ could haue been in two places at once , the Angels argument had been of no force ; remember that this is an Angell-reason , which know wee how to reason truly . This opinion is against our sences , we see not , feele not , nor taste not flesh and blood . Now God neuer deluded mans sences , whensoeuer he turned one substance into another : Moses staffe was made a Serpent , dust was Lice , the water blood , and water was wine , and all these sensible . No Scripture , nor any other approued testimony can be produced , to shew vndoubtedly the contrarie . Yea , this is certaine , that the true body of Christ is discernable by sense to be a true bodie wheresoeuer it is ; therefore when the Disciples doubted at his sudden appearing , he said , It is I my selfe . And to proue this , he willeth them to vse their senses , saying , Handle me , and see ; that so they might discerne his true body , flesh and bones : and so might it be in the Sacrament , if indeed and truth he were there corporally . It hath been witnessed against by the blood or many Martyrs : but where be so many in defence of our aduersaries grosse opinion ? Which of them haue euer hitherto , or dare to suffer for this their opinion , as ours haue done against it ? This opinion of our aduersaries is to be detested for , first , the falshood thereof ; secondly , for the grosse idolatry committed through it , euen a piece of bread adored for Almightie Iesus Christ himselfe . Thirdly , for the bloodie crueltie , which for the vpholding of it , hath been done with furious rage vpon the bodies of Gods Saints , because they would not beleeue this false doctrine , nor commit this abominable idolatrie . Fourthly , all such as thus beleeue , sinne not only in the act damnably ( for Idolaters perish euerlastingly , Reuel . 21.8 . ) but also irrepentantly , because they be perswaded , that in so beleeuing and worshipping , they doe not onely not sin , but doe a most excellent worke , and meritorious seruice to God. They teach , that there is a Purgatorie , a place of torment . In holy Scriptures we find plainely , Heauen , Earth , Hell , & Sea ; but no plaine name of Purgatorie , nor Limbus Patrum , nor Limbus Infantium . In the Decalogue we find Heauen , Earth , and Waters vnder the Earth ; and in the Lords Prayer , Heauen and Earth ; in the Creed , Heauen , Earth and Hell ; but none of the other deuised and faigned places . This Purgatory for satisfaction is against common equity : for they say , the sinne is pardoned by Christ : and can then in equity the partie be punished ? A Creditor forgiues freely to a man all his debt : can he then with equitie after lay him in Gaole to make any satisfaction for the same ? They say , that Images may be set vp to be adored . The Scriptures are plaine against them , Deut. 4.15 , 19. Esay 40.18 . Act. 17.20 . Rom. 1.23 . The second Commandement , in the Decalogue , forbids them , which our aduersaries bid from the people in their vulgar Catechismes . Our corrupt nature is apt to these things , and therefore the lesse to be liked of . They teach to pray vnto the Virgin Marie , to Saints and Angels . The Scriptures afford no precept for this , nor any euident example : prayers there are taught to be made vnto God : Angels are not to be worshipped , Col. 2.18 . Reuel . 19.10 . & 22.9 . The Lords Prayer , the perfect rule of prayer , teacheth vs to pray to God our Father in Heauen , whensoeuer we pray : now can wee say to the Virgin Marie , to Saint , or Angell , Our Father which art in Heauen ? Can we pray to any of them , and say , Thy Name be hallowed , thy Kingdome come , thy will be done in Earth , as it is in Heauen ? Can we pray any one of them , to giue vs daily bread , to forgiue vs our sinnes , to deliuer vs from euill ? Can we ascribe to any one of them , and say , Thine is Kingdome , power and glory for euer ? Yet this prayer warrants vs , that to whom in Heauen we may pray , to him may we say all this : but if not to the Virgin Marie , not to Saint , nor Angell , then may wee not pray to them by any warrant of this prayer . Our Creed teacheth vs to beleeue in none , but God the Father , Sonne , and holy Ghost . Now the Scripture plainely telleth vs , that wee cannot pray to any , but in whom we beleeue , Rom. 10.14 . Therefore then not to the Virgin Marie , nor to Saint nor Angell , because we are not to beleeue in them . They tell thee , that thou must beleeue the Romane-Catholik Church , and to be also a member thereof , else thou canst not be saued . The Scriptures tell vs plainely , that God added to the Church such as should be saued , Acts 2.47 . but not a word there of the Romane Church . In our Creed , we are taught to beleeue the Catholike Church , and that we be members of it , but to bee of any Romane Catholike Church , is no Article of our Creed . Besides the speech is absurd , and it is against reason , to call a particular Church the generall , or the generall a particular , as the Church of Rome in the best estate of it neuer was other . And can the obiect of faith be the obiect of sight , as it is the obiect of faith ? Now we beleeue the Catholike Church , but the Papists tell vs , that their Church is euer visible to the eye . This also which they say , is against common charitie : for must all out of the Church of Rome , be without hope of saluation ? In the planting of the Gospell , there was a Church at Ierusalem , before any at Rome , and many Churches planted by Saint Paul , which neuer had dependance vpon the Church of Rome ; many Churches in the East , and other parts of the World , which are not within the Romane iurisdiction , nor doe acknowledge it ; must needs all these be without saluation , because the Romane Pope is not domineering ouer them ? Now God forbid . They will tell thee , that thou must be able to shew thy Church , and the professors therof in euery age , else thou art not of the true Church . But the holy Scriptures neuer bound any to such a taske , neither Christ , nor his Apostles in all the new Testament euer charged any Christian Church , much lesse any beleeuer with this . It is an Article of thy Faith , to beleeue that there is a Church of God , here and there dispersed abroad in the world . This is a man bound to beleeue , but not that euery one , or any other for him , should be able to make a Catalogue of all that went before in the same profession in euery Age. One ignorant of this , may yet be of the true Church , neither shal the ignorance thereof damne him . They will tell thee , that there are some sinnes in Nature veniall in themselues , not deseruing eternall death . The Scripture teacheth otherwise , Rom. 6.23 . The wages of sinne is death , no exception of any at all . Yea , the consent of sinne is worthy of death , Rom. 1.23 . In the Lords Prayer , when we craue pardon of our trespasses without exception , wee thereby acknowledge , that euery kind of trespasse offendeth God , standeth need of forgiuenesse , and therefore what else would follow , if he did not forgiue it , but death ? This false distinction giueth libertie to our corrupt nature to sinne , as experience tels euery of vs , euen in our aduersaries , wallowing licenciously in their supposed veniall sinnes . It may seeme vnreasonable , if there be sinnes veniall in their owne nature , that such a horrible scorching fire , as they make that in Purgatorie to bee , should bee prepared to plague soules for the same . The greatest torments in the world , as they say , are not comparable to the torments there : How can it then be possibly imagined , that veniall sinnes , which , as they say , doe not breake friendship with God , should be so terribly punished , by way of satisfaction , and yet God remaine to him , who is so punished , a sure friend ? They teach , that a man hath power to doe Gods will , and to auoide euill , and not be ouercome thereof , if he will. The Scriptures tell vs , that it is God that workes the will and the deed , Phil. 2.13 . and maketh all our sufficiencie to be of him , 2. Cor. 3.5 . In the Lords Prayer , wee are taught to beg of God abilitie to doe his will , and his grace , to deliuer vs from euill : vnder will , is comprehended all good , and vnder euill , is contained whatsoeuer is sinfull , so as it s not in vs to doe good , nor to auoyde euill , but both is Gods worke in vs. Euery man feeleth this inabilitie in himselfe by experience ; yea , these also which doe maintaine this power in man , if they would confesse it . And why are they not all most holy , if they haue this power ? Their damnation is more iust , when they sinne in any measure , then such as want this power , though they fall by infirmitie into greater sinnes . They teach , that a man may fulfill the whole Law , and so merit . The Scripture teacheth otherwise , Luke 17.10 . Eccles . 7.20 . Prou. 20.9 . Psal . 130.3 . Iob 9.20 . 1. Ioh. 1.8 . Iam. 3.2 . In the Lords Prayer , we aske all of vs forgiuenesse . In the Creed wee are taught , not to dreame here of perfection , or of merit ; but to beleeue the forgiuenesse of sinnes . And in reading the Law truly vnderstood , it doth cause a mans conscience , euen in the best , to acknowledge himselfe guiltie . I might here goe thorow many other points which they teach , to which from either plaine Scriptures , or from the Catechisme , or from these considerations , thou maist make answere in thine owne defence . But yet for all this ( though thou also hast gotten helpe to stand for thy selfe ) beware of Seducers , run not easily into disputes with them , but rather put them ouer to learned men to be answered . It is not good for Eue for to fall into conference with the subtill Serpent . Be bold vpon these grounds with ordinarie Papists , if they will attempt to set vpon thee : but consider thy abilitie , presume not aboue thy measure , continue in Gods Word , and the Lord will vphold thee . To whose blessed guide and Fatherly protection , I commit thee . Pray we all continually . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A73011-e320 1. Cor. 2.11 . 1. Cor. 2.14 . Rom. 8.7 . Verse 5. * Origen vpon Numb . Tertul. de resur . Carnis . Epiphaen de Haeres . lib. 1. cap. 23 , 24 38. Irae . li. 1. cap. 23. Tertul. de praescript . A●bana . orat . 2. contra Arianos . Ier. 36. 2. Thes . 2. In the Popes Bull before the Catechisme of the Councell of Trent . a De Eccles . pa. 308. b Apol. Catho . cap. 66. c Lib. de Antichrist . c. 24. d In his second pillar of Pop. e Against Hart. cap. 8. diuis . 4. pa. 567.568.569 . & 572. f Ca. 1. vers . 25. pa. 200 Lib. de Antichr . cap. 6. to cap. 33. Lib. de eccles . cont . 2. quaest . 5. pa. 300. & 308. Obiect . Answ . Obiect . Answ . De continu . & statu Ecclesiae . See Doct. Hall his peace of Rome . In his Symphonia Cathol . In his reformed Catholike . Cambden in Brit. p 40.157 . * Harison before , Hollins . Chron. Midleton in his Papistomastix . pag 202. See the Protestants Apol. vnder Brerelys name . Brerely his Appeale , Trac . 1. Sect. 2. pag. 69. Beda histor . lib. 2. cap. 2. Beda lib. 2. ca. 4. Bish . Vshers letter , pag. 80.81.82.83 . Galfridus Monumentisis Centur . 6 p. 689. Beda lib. 3. Hist . cap. 3.6 . Ibi. c. 21.22.24 . Bish . Vsher in his late Epistle added to Sir Chr. Sybthorps booke . Se Archb. Parker his booke de anti . Brit. cap. 18. Se Bishop Morton his Catholike Appeale , lib. 1. cap. 2. sect . 8. pag. 11. Ibidem lib. 1. ca. 12. sec . 1.2 . See Catol . Test . veritat . pag. 26. to 69. last edition , 1608. See the Epist . in the booke of the Lawes of the Saxon Kings , in the Saxons language . Also in Fox , Acts and Monum . fol. 69. For the authoritie of this Epistle , I take it , as they approue of it , a witnesse good against themselues . See for all these in Cat. Test . verit . lib. 6. p. 558. See for these Bish . Mortons Catho . Appeal . l. 1. c. 2.3.4.4 . Doct. Feild of the Church , b. 5. cap. 34 Catol . Test . verit . lib. 1. p. 93. See his Epistle before named . Ier. 6.14 . The Papist cannot make a true Catalogue from Christ , of their present Religion . What to demand of them , and to presse them vnto . What are the things , which in their Catalogue from Christ , they must proue those in the first Age to haue maintained . Protestants are of the Catholike Church , though no Romanists . In Can. 3. de bapt . Part. 1. Act. 9. cap 10. q. 8. What sorts are out of the Church . Protestants no Heretikes . In his booke of equiuocation . Part. 1. Art. 9. cap. 10. q. 1. Protestants hold no impious opinions condemned for heresie . Protestants are not conuicted of obstinacie . See the Historie of the Councell of Trent . Protestants do not neglect the authority of the Catholike Church . Protestants are no Schismatikes . Eph. 3.20 . Let them answer the books which prooue her the great Whore , Babylon , and the Pope Antichrist , if any denie these things . In summa part . 2. cap. 39. de Schismate . Reuel . 18.4 . See for these Catal. Test . verit . pa. 27. to 70. in the last Edition . 2. Ch. 11.13 , 14 Protestants not excommunicate persons . How a man must be qualified , which wil continue in the truth . Prou. 1. 2. Thes . 2.10 , 11 , 12. Ioh. 7.17 . Iam. 1.5 . Luk. 11.13 . By what helpes to oppose the aduersaries . Plaine Scriptures . Aug. l. 2. de . doct . Chr. cap. 6. Chrysost . 3. hom . in 2. Thes . Lib. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto , cap. 11. The parts of the Catechisme . Nine considerations . Obserue two things in the aduersaries dealing with thee . Three things beyond ordinarie mens capacitie , which they must take heed , they be not deceiued by . Ordinarie me● cannot iudge of Councels , and why ? Not of the allegation of Fathers , and why ? Not of the allegation of the Churches custome , and why ? Against the Popes headship . Against his vnerring spirit . Against transubstantiation . Exod. 4.3 . & 7.10 , 20 , 21 , 24. & 8.17 . Ioh. 2.9 , 10. Luke 24.39 . The euill of the doctrine of transubstantiation . Against Purgatorie . Against Images , and their worship . Against praying to Saints . Matth. 6. Against the Romanists , condemning all that are not of their Church . Against their vrging as necesary , to make a Catalogue of our professors in all Ages . Against their error of veniall sinnes . Against mans power to doe well . Against their error of mans abilitie to fulfil the Law. 
A79473	----	Chillingworthi novissima. Or, The sicknesse, heresy, death and buriall of William Chillingworth. (In his own phrase) Clerk of Oxford, and in the conceit of his fellow souldiers, the Queens arch-engineer, and grand-intelligencer. Set forth in a letter to his eminent and learned friends, a relation of his apprehension at Arundell, a discovery of his errours in a briefe catechism, and a shorr [sic] oration at the buriall of his hereticall book. By Francis Cheynell, late fellow of Merton Colledge. Published by authority. Cheynell, Francis, 1608-1665. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A79473 of text R13256 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E36_7). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. 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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A79473) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 111525) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 7:E36[7]) Chillingworthi novissima. Or, The sicknesse, heresy, death and buriall of William Chillingworth. (In his own phrase) Clerk of Oxford, and in the conceit of his fellow souldiers, the Queens arch-engineer, and grand-intelligencer. Set forth in a letter to his eminent and learned friends, a relation of his apprehension at Arundell, a discovery of his errours in a briefe catechism, and a shorr [sic] oration at the buriall of his hereticall book. By Francis Cheynell, late fellow of Merton Colledge. Published by authority. Cheynell, Francis, 1608-1665. [68] p. Printed for Samuel Gellibrand, at the Brazen Serpent in Pauls Church-yard, London : 1644. Annotation on Thomason copy: "March 8th"; the 4 in the imprint date is crossed out and altered to 1643. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Chillingworth, William, 1602-1644 -- Religion -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Early works to 1800. A79473 R13256 (Thomason E36_7). civilwar no Chillingworthi novissima.: Or, The sicknesse, heresy, death and buriall of William Chillingworth. (In his own phrase) Clerk of Oxford, and Cheynell, Francis 1644 26252 29 30 0 0 0 0 22 C The rate of 22 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-08 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-08 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion CHILLINGWORTHI NOVISSIMA . OR , THE Sicknesse , Heresy , Death , and Buriall OF WILLIAM CHILLINGWORTH . ( In his own phrase ) Clerk of Oxford , and in the conceit of his fellow Souldiers , the Queens Arch-Engineer , and Grand-Intelligencer . SET FORTH IN A Letter to his Eminent and learned Friends , a Relation of his Apprehension at Arundell , a Discovery of his Errours in a Briefe Catechism , and a short Oration at the Buriall of his Hereticall Book . By FRANCIS CHEYNELL , late Fellow of MERTON Colledge . Published by Authority . LONDON , Printed for SAMUEL GELLIBRAND , at the Brazen Serpent in Pauls Church-yard , 1644. TO THE LEARNED AND EMINENT FRIENDS OF Mr CHILLINGWORTH , And in particular TO Sir JOHN CULPEPPER , Knight , Doctor JOHN PRIDEAUX Bishop of Worcester , FELL Deane of Christ-Church , BAYLY Deane of Sarum , SHELDEN Warden of All-soules , POTTER Provost of Queenes , and MORLEY Canon of Christ-Church . SIRS , YOur deceased friend is not yet speechlesse , he calls upon you to beware and repent ; some preach more , at least more practically , when they are dead , then ever they did whilst they were alive . You that were his Patrons and Encouragers , as hee acknowledged ever , when he was in the heigth of his Rebellion , doe you beware lest a worse thing come unto you . You that were the Licensers of his subtile Atheisme , Repent , Repent ; for he was so hardened by your flattery , that ( for ought the most charitable man can judge ) hee perished by your Approbation : he ever appealed to his works even to his very dying day , and what was it , which made him dote upon them , but your Licence and Approbation ? Heark what hee saith , The third and last part of my Accusation was , That I answer out of principles , which Protestants themselves will professe to detest : which indeed were to the purpose , if it could be justified . But besides that , it is confuted by my whole Book , and made ridiculous by the Approbation premised unto it , &c. read Mr Chillingworth his Preface to the Author of Charity &c. Sect. 30. Sure I am , that the Accusation may bee justified , and therefore is to the purpose ; but the Approbation cannot bee justified , and is therefore justly Reprobated : The Accusation is so serious , that the Approbation cannot make it ( but may well make the Approvers and their Church ) ridiculous . O what a ridiculous Church doe the Licensers make the Church of England to be , by saying that there is nothing in Mr Chillingworth his Book contrary to the doctrine of the Church of England ; sure they meant the Church of Canterbury . But Dr Fell , and Dr Bayly are not ashamed to say , that there is nothing in that Book contrary to good manners , which Dr Prideaux would not say ; but enough of that . Sirs , the following History will testifie my compassion towards your deceased friend , whom I ever opposed in a charitable and friendly way . I doe not account it any glory to trample upon the carkasse of Hector , or to pluck a dead Lion by the beard ; should I misquote his Book , and make that errour mine owne by a false citation , which I pretend to be his in an Accusation , you that were the unhappy Licencers of his Book would soone take me tripping . If you conceive that he deserved a more Honourable buriall , bee pleased to answer my Reasons , and patronize his errours with all the learning Bodleyes Library can afford : or else study his Catechisme , pardon my boldnesse , some Courtiers never learnt , and some Doctours have forgot their Catechisme , or else this man we speak of had never beene so much admired , his Book extolled , or these Antichristian warres fomented by such great Clerks and busie wits . I looked upon Mr Chillingworth as one who had his head as full of Scruples as it was of Engines , and therefore dealt as tenderly with him as I use to doe with men of the most nice and tender consciences : for I considered , that though Beefe must bee preserved with salt ; yet Plums must be preserved with sugar . I can assure you I stooped as low to him as I could without falling , and you know he is not a wise man in the judgement of the Philosopher , who stoops so low to another mans weaknesse , that he himselfe falls into weaknesse : and it is a Rule with us at Westminster , that he falls into weaknesse who falls into sinne . Doe not conceive that I snacht up my pen in an angry mood , that I might vent my dangerous wit , and ease my overburthened spleene . No , no , I have almost forgot the Visitation at Merton Colledge , the Deniall of my Grace , the plundering of my house and little Library : I know when and where and of whom to demand satisfaction for all these injuries and indignities . I have learnt Centum plagas Spartanâ Nobilitate concoquere . I have not yet learnt how to plunder others of goods or living , and make my selfe amends by force of armes . I will not take a living which belonged to any civill , studious , learned Delinquent , unlesse it be the much neglected Commendam of some Lordly Prelate condemned by the knowne Lawes of the Land , and the highest Court of the Kingdome for some offence of the first magnitude : I can , without straining my conscience , swallow such a gnat , a camel I should say , for every one of their Commendams hath a bunch upon its back , and may well make a bunch upon their conscience . I shall not trouble you with any long discourse about State matters , only you will give me leave to say what the Lacedemonian slave said , when he stood to be sold in the market ; and one asked him what he was ? I am ( saith he ) a Free man , and so am I , for though I have not taken Antidotum contra Caesarem , yet I have taken Antidotum contra Tyrannidem . I could never yet stoop so low to the most tyrannicall Prelate as to cry Your humble Slave . Sirs , we heare you have made a New Almanack at Oxford ; and some conceive that you hold correspondence with all the swore Planets , and that you have enticed the trusty Sunne from his Ecliptick line , and taught him to goe Retrograde . We wonder , I must tell you , that the Sunne never came into Libra , that Opinions , Protestations , Actions were seldome or never weighed in the ballance of the Sanctuary : and we wondered more , that Venus ( I had almost forgot my Astronomy , and said Iuno ) was shufled into Virgo's place , and the signe was in the Dogs head , when we did expect it in a more propitious place , the Lions heart . I remember that of Tertullian , Habet & Ecclesia dies Caniculares , the Church of Christ hath cause to complaine of Dog dayes ; for the Dog doth not only shew his teeth ; we heare him bark and feele him bite ; we may in every month write the Dog dayes in capitall letters , nay you write them for us ( so capitall are your crimes ) in letters of blood . What is England become a Wildernesse ? if it be not , why are so many wilde beasts suffered to goe loose and prey upon the zealous Protestants ? for shame chaine up those beasts before the first of March : if shame work not , feare may , the same feare which falls upon the men of Northumberland , the feare of a Scottish Reformation : I will not listen at the doore of your Iunto to heare what newes , nor will I peepe into your pretended Parliament , no nor into Merton Colledge , for feare I should see some sights like those in the eighth of Ezekiel , some with their backs towards the Temple of the Lord , and their faces towards the East ; and if I should look farther , one that is no Prophet tells me , that I may see greater abominations then these . Sir , I beseech you keepe downe your staffe : but if you will hold it up , as Eurybiades did , I must cry as Themistocles did , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , strike if you please ; yet heare me , or at least heare what the Prophet saith to me , doth he not speak of you ? Then hee said unto me , Hast thou seene this O sonne of man . Is it a light thing to the house of Iudah , that they commit the abominations which they commit here ? for they have filled the Land with violence , and have returned to provoke me to anger : and lo they put their branch to their nose . Therefore — read and tremble at the rest . Come , come away with this learned Atheisme , your Iudge looks upon you , the searcher of hearts and discoverer of secrets is acquainted with all your plots . The Lord sees what the Ancients of Oxford doe in the dark , every man in the chambers of his imagery : the Lord heares what you say — O doe not say as the Ancients of Israel said , The Lord seeth us not , the Lord hath forsaken the earth . I am afraid that you have the same temptations at Oxford , which were presented to Origen , an Ethiopian woman , and an Idoll ; he was ( you know ) put to this unhappy choice , to commit folly with which he pleased . Some lust as mnch after idols , as others doe after women ; if in these dayes of liberty you restraine from neither , you doe in effect tempt to both , and are the grand seducers of the hopefull Gentry : but alasse you are guilty of a more ambitious wickednesse , it is your study to seduce a King . I remember an old story of King Canutus , who ( as the Chronicler relates ) took off the Crowne from his owne head , and set it upon the Crucifixe at Westminster : But tell me ( you that have read some Italian Jesuite more subtile then the Politicians Saint , Saint Machiavel ) doe you conceive that you can perswade our King to take off his Crowne from his owne head , and place it upon your idoll the Queene , or her idoll the Crucifixe , at Oxford ? We have none at Westminster . Well , plot on my Masters , and walke in the light and warmth of that fire which you have kindled ; but heare what the Prophet saith , Behold all you that kindle a fire , and compasse about your selves with sparkes , walke in the light of your fire , and in the sparks which you have kindled ; This shall ye have of mine hand , ye shall lay downe in sorrow . Pardon our just feare , if we dare not say a confederacy to all those Welch Atheists , Irish Rebels , bloudy Papists of the French or Spanish faction , to whom you say , A confederacy ; Associate your selves together ( you know what followes ) take counsell together ( in your pretended Parliament ) and it will be brought to nought , enact and pronounce a decree , imagine mischiefe as a Law , yet you shall not prosper , for God is with us . I know you urge the 13 to the Romanes , to justifie your royall cruelty ; but you know what Chrysostome , and many others , have said upon that place : But I shall onely aske you one queshion ( with which I stopped your friend Chillingworths mouth ) be pleased to answere it : Doe you beleeve that Tyrannie is Gods ordinance ? I ever held it a violation of Gods ordinance : and whether the supreme Judicatory of the Kingdome may not repell that force with force , which would violate Gods ordinance , judge ye ; for it is absurd to talke , as Doctor Ferne doth , of a morall restraint in such a case . Sure I am , the Parliament hath power to raise an Army to preserve Gods ordinance inviolable , when it cannot be preserved by any other meanes : They doe certainly resist Gods ordinance who seeke to violate it ; You endevour to violate it , We to preserve it ; who is in the fault ? I have examined your great Champion Doctor Ferne his three bookes , and cannot finde any thing in them , whereby the conscience of an impartiall Scholar may be fully resolved or satisfied . It is very impertinent , in my weake judgement , to talke of the priviledges of the Kings of Judah , who were immediately elected by God ; or to discourse of the power of the Romane Emperour , or the first draughts of Government in the Saxon and Norman lines ; for Doctor Ferne doth acknowledge that it is not injurious to his Majesties posterity , that the King sweares to a limited power , a power limited by priviledges and immunities , granted , or restored to the people since the conquest ; which priviledges grants , liberties , though not originall , yet are they irrevocable . Doctor Ferne distinguishes betweene the Title of the King , and the Power of the King ; but wee did never so much as once question his Majesties Title , whether it be limited or no ? It is confessed that his power , and therefore much more the exercise of his power , is limited by the Priviledges of the Parliament , the immunities of the Subject , and the Kings owne oath : Nay , it is acknowledged that the two houses of Parliament are in a sort co-ordinate with his Majesty , to some act or exercising of the supreme power , by a fundamentall constitution Truely here is , in my judgement , so much granted , that the rest need not be disputed . But what if these powers be divided , and clash one against the other ? why then the power is not fully in King or Parliament , for the power which is in the three Estates is suspended , whilest one part suspends : So Doctor Ferne . Give me leave to aske him , and you , whether the power of the Militia be not in the three Estates , as well as the power of making Lawes ? if it be not , then sure the power of making Lawes is to no purpose , because they have no power to defend or enforce I aw : and if the power of the Militia be in the three Estates , then the Kings power of levying , arming men , &c. is suspended by the severall Ordinances of Parliament ; for it is Doctor Fernes conclusion , that the power which is in the three Estates is suspended whilest one part suspends ; Ergo , much more if two Estates suspend . But on the other side , I desire Doctor Ferne to shew how the Kingdome is secured by the government of three Estates , if the two houses of Parliament have not sufficient power to preserve the King and the Kingdome , in case the King refuse to preserve it or him . It is unreasonable ( saith Doctor Ferne ) that the supply should be made by the body onely , without the head : nay rather , Doctor , it is unreasonable for the Head to neglect the preservation of it selfe , and the body ; but it is very reasonable for to lift up both armes , to defend the head , and the whole body ; and therefore reasonable for both houses to take up armes , and lift up their armes , put forth their whole strength to defend the King and themselves . Doctor Ferne talkes of a Fundamentall constitution , which hath provided this temper of three Estates , as the reasonable meanes of our safety . But I must confesse , that it cannot enter into my dull pate to conceive , that our Government is of any setled temper ; or that we have any reasonable meanes provided for the safety of this Kingdome , by that fundamentall constitution , if the King may doe what he pleases , seize on our goods , ( 't is Doctor Fernes supposition ) imprison our persons , kill us outright , and ( which is worse ) overthrow our Lawes , our ●iberties , our Religion , and all at once , and by consequence enslave not onely the bodies , but the consciences of our posterity ; and there is no more power in both houses of Parliament to protect us by force against force , then if we had no such remedy provided , as the government of three Estates . Are we not subjected to an absolute Monarch , if the other two Estates have no legall power to releeve our neglected or oppressed Common-wealth ? how are we secured by the temper of three Estates ? or how can it be called a temper ? or a temper of three Estates ? if the first of the three may oppresse us , and the other two have no power to releeve us ? Sure I am , that by this account there is but one Estate that hath a true power , and therfore that Estate must be an estate of absolute Monarchy , which Dr Ferne himselfe seemes to abhorre ; and yet so vaine is that Doctor , as to call the Power of Supply legally placed in both Houses of Parliament , a Conceit , nay a vaine Conceit ; his words are these ; The Conceit of Supply by the two Houses in case the King refuse ( to preserve the Kingdome ) is a vaine Conceit : and if that be true , then I must conclude , that this provision of a Temper of three Estates is no Temper , no provision , two of the Estates are no Estates ; or else this provision is in the phrase of Doctor Ferne , a lame provision , which argues the first contrivement of our Ancestors very inconsiderate ; because then it followes , that there is no Reasonable Meane of safety provided for this Kingdome by that Fundamentall Constitution which provided this Temper of three Estates , so the Doctor loves to call it , though he make one Estate so praedominant , that as there is no Temperamentum ad pondus , so there will bee no Temperamentum ad justitiam neither by his conceit . How say you Sir John , are not you of my perswasion , or are you ashamed to tread in the steppes of your learned Countrey-man ? The Lord open your eyes , and cleare your eye-sight ; you are naturally sharp-sighted , but if your eye look red or yellow , you know your disease by the symptome . It sball be my prayer , that your eye may neither be dimme nor blood-shotten . Consider that the blood of the 70 was laid upon Abimelech their brother who slew them , and upon the men of Shechem , which had ayded him by strengthning his hands to kill his brethren . Whether you have strengthned their hands who slew their Brethren , only for being too zealous in the maintenance of that Religion which you professe , I appeale to God , your Conscience , and the evidence of the fact . If you have dealt truly and sincerely with this * Reforming Parliament , nay with your owne party , rejoyce and flatter your selves with hope of a desired successe ; but if not , then take heed the curse of Iotham doe not fall upon you : there may be an evill spirit sent between the Irish and English , the French and Spanish factions ; nay , fire may come out from the Queen and consume the Prelates , and fire from the Prelates and consume the Papists ; or else there may come a fire from the North , a fire to purge and refine , not to destroy ; which is my prayer , and will be your happinesse . I will not hold you any longer upon the racke : Learne the first lesson of Christianity , Self-deniall ; deny your owne will , and submit your selves to Gods ; deny your reason , and submit to faith : Reason tells you that there are some things above reason , and you cannot be so unreasonable as to make reason judge of those things which are above reason : Remember that Master Chillingworth ( your friend ) did runne mad with reason , and so lost his reason and religion both at once : hee thought he might trust his reason in the highest points ; his reason was to be Iudge , whether or no there be a God ? Whether that God wrote any Booke ? Whether the bookes usually received as Canonicall be the bookes , the Scriptures of God ? What is the sense of those books ? What Religion is best ? What Church purest ? Come , doe not wrangle , but beleeve , and obey your God , and then I shall be encouraged to subscribe my selfe Your Friend and Servant , FRANCIS CHEYNELL . A briefe and plaine Relation of Mr Chillingworths Sicknesse , Death , and Buriall : together with a just Censure of his Works , by a Discovery of his Errours collected out of his Book , and framed into a kinde of Atheisticall Catechisme , fit for Racovia or Cracovia : And may well serve for the instruction of the Irish , Welch , Dutch , French , Spanish Army in England , and especially for the Black Regiment at Oxford . I Am very religious in observing that old proverbe , if it be taken in its right sense , Nothing is to be spoken of the dead but good . If that be true which Quintilian saith , adversus miseros ( I may better say adversus mortuos inhumanus est jocus ; that man is void of humanity who makes sport with the dead . Mr Chillingworth was looked upon by me at the first sight as a conquered man , and therefore I was not only civill , but ( as he confessed ) charitable unto him : and now he is dead , I cannot deale with him as a Asinius Pollio did with Plancus , set forth an Oration to which no answer is to be expected , unlesse according to the desire of Saul or Dives , a messenger should arise from the dead to give me an answer as full of terrour as satisfaction . It is no glory to triumph over one that is conquered , nay dead ; for that of the Poet is true , Nullum cum victis certamen * & aethere cassis . But I consider , that Mr Chillingworths party is alive , though he be dead ; and though one of his Books is buried , there are many hundred Copies divulged ; and therefore though I speak not of his humane frailties , or personall infirmities , and imperfections , which died with him ; yet I may speak of his Hereticall Book , and of some destructive policies he used , which doe yet survive in their sad and lamentable effects . Iudge what I say , put the case a man commits notorious crimes scandalously , because publiquely , and doth not only hold , but vent damnable heresies ; and vent them not only in the Pulpit , but in the Presse ; shall not his damnable heresies and printed heresies be confuted after his death ? shall thousands be seduced and perish , and all Orthodox Divines silenced with that one Proverb , Nothing is to be spoken of the dead but good ? Nay , put the case further yet , suppose a man hath had his head full of powder-plots , and his heart full of bloody desires , nay hath been a Ring-leader and Encourager of others to bloody practises against the very light of nature as well as Scripture ; must nothing be said of such a man when he is gone , but good ? Mr Chillingworth and I met in Sussex by an unexpected providence : I was driven from my owne house by force of Armes , only ( as the Cavaliers confessed ) because I was nominated to be a Member of the Assembly : and when I heard that my Living was bestowed upon a Doctor ( who if some Cambridge-men deceive me not , became the stage farre better then he doth the Pulpit ) I resolved to exercise my Ministery in Sussex amongst my friends , in a place where there hath been little of the power of Religion either known or practised . About the latter end of November I travelled from London to Chichester , according to my usuall custome , to observe the monthly Fast ; and in my passage , with a thankfull heart I shall ever acknowledge it , I was guarded by a Convoy of 16 Souldiers , who faced about 200 of the enemies forces , and put them all to flight . Upon the twelfth of December I visited a brave Souldier of my acquaintance , Captain James Temple , who did that day defend the Fort at Bramber against a bold daring enemy , to the wonder of all the countrey : and I did not marvell at it , for he is a man that hath his head full of stratagems , his heart full of piety and valour , and his hand as full of successe as it is of dexterity : My gratefull pen might wel run on in his commendation , to the eternall shame of those who have been ungratefull to him , to whom they doe ( under God ) owe their preservation . But I intend not to defraud others of their deserved praise , who were present at that fierce encounter . There was present Colonell Harbert Morley , a Gentleman of a nimble apprehension & vigilant spirit ; but the Cavaliers were kept at such a distance , that they never put the Colonels Regiment of horse to any trouble : There was present likewise Captaine Henry Carleton , the Antiprelaticall sonne of a learned Prelate , a man of a bold presence and fixed resolution , who loves his country better then his life . Captain Simon Everden was there also , a man of slow speech , but sure performance , who deserves that Motto of the old Romane , Non tam facile loquor , quam quod locutus sum praesto . You cannot expect that I should name all the rest of the Commanders : But there were ( you see ) some difficulties in my way , which seemed insuperable , and yet the Lord of Hosts did bring me thorow these difficulties safe from Bramber to Arundell , upon the 21 day of December , if I forget not . Master Chillingworth was at that time in Arundell Castle , which was surrendred to the much renowned Commander Sir William Waller , Serjeant-Major-generall of all the associated Counties in the East and West , upon the sixt of Ianuary . As soone as the Castle was surrendred , I represented Master Chillingworths condition to Sir William Waller , who commended him to the care of his worthy Chaplaine ; and his Chaplaine shewed so much charity and respect towards him , that he laid him upon his owne bed , and supplied him with all necessaries which the place did afford . When the rest of the Prisoners were sent up to London , Master Chillingworth made it evident to me , that he was not able to endure so long a journey ; and if he had been put to it , he had certainly died by the way : I desired therefore that his journey might bee shortned , and upon my humble motion he was sent to Chichester , where I intreated the Governour that he might be secured by some Officer of his acquaintance , and not put into the hands of the Marshall ; the Governour gave order that Lievtenant Golledge should take charge of him , and placed him in the Bishop of Chichesters Palace , where he had very courteous usage , and all accommodations which were requisite for a sicke man , as appeares by the testimony of his owne man at Oxford , and a Letter of thankfull acknowledgment from Master Chillingworths father to Lievtenant Golledge : nay , by Master Chillingworths Codicill , which hee desired should be annexed to his Will , in which he gave 10 livre. to Captaine King , 10 li . to Mistresse Mason , who keepes the Bishops house , and attended Master Chillingworth in his sicknesse , and 10 li. to Lievtenant Golledge : And it may further appeare by a Letter of Captain Kings sent to Oxford , and the testimony of Master Edmonds , his Apothecary ; both which are as followes . Captain Kings Letter sent to Mr Walter Iones , one of the Chaplains of Christ-Church in Oxford , Ian. 23. Kind friend , MAster Chillingworth was in so weake a condition , by reason of a violent fluxe , that I perswade my selfe hee could not have lived the first night of his journey , had he gone farther ; for it was very tedious to him to be brought hither . He lyes very ill , and ( for ought I perceive ) in a desperate condition ; and how God may dispose of him we know not : if any of his friends have a purpose to come into these parts , they shall have free passage without any molestation . Lievtenant Golledge performes the part of a reall friend in every kinde ; neither is Christobell wanting in her best care and diligence . Lievtenant Golledge hath already disburst 10 livre. or thereabout : It would not be amisse that some of Master Chillingworths friends were present with him , whilest there is some hope of life ; for it will be a great satisfaction both to him and others : There must be no delayes either of time or money . I heare that Master Chillingworths Sister , whom hee hath made Executrix , is travelling with childe , and therefore unfit for travell , but he is very confident she will not let him want for necessary supplies whilest he lives , and that hee may have decent buriall ( befitting one of his merit ) if it pleaseth God he chance to dye . Among other of his friends , I pray acquaint Doctor Shelden , the Warden of All-soules , with what is written , whom Master Chillingworth doth very highly esteem . Your very affectionate friend , Robert King . From Chichester Jan. 23. The testimony of Master Edmonds . A Friend standing by him , desired him to declare himselfe in point of Religion , for two reasons : first , Because the Iesuites had much defamed and traduced him in that particular : secondly , Because he might be able to give an account to his friends , in case he should survive . He answered , he had declared himselfe already in that point sufficiently to the world . His friend told him , that there went abroad some hard opinions that he had of Iesus Christ , and wisht him to deale candidly and plainly to the world in that point . He answered , for those things he was setled and resolved , and therefore did not desire to be further troubled . Being demanded , what course should be taken for his interment , in case God should take him away in this place ; he replied , that where ever God should please to take him , he would there be interred ; and ( if it might be obtained ) according to the custome of the Church of England ; if not , the Lords will be done . And further ( said hee ) because the world will be apt to surmise the worst of things , and there may be some inquiry made after my usage in this place , I must testifie and declare to all the world , that I have received both of Master Golledge and his wife , abundance of love , care , and tendernesse , where I deserved it not ; and that I have wanted nothing which might be desired of them : and I must in all conscience and honesty doe them this right , to testifie the truth to the world : or to that effect . Anthony Edmonds . And for my part , I beleeve that in the course of nature hee might have recovered , had he not neglected and distrusted an able Doctor ( who freely offered himselfe ) onely because hee was Physician to Sir William Waller ; sure I am that jealousie was more deadly then his disease . Yet Master Chillingworth did , when it was too late , discover and confesse his errour , and we perswaded the Doctor to visit him afterwards , and he was in an hopefull way of recovery : but then his spirit was much dejected , because his friends neglected , or delayed , to send him some good newes from Oxford : his heart was so set upon his release , and his head was still working and projecting , how he might be exchanged , or ransomed ; and therefore certainly the Newes of his friends active endevours for his release , was the onely Cordiall which could possibly revive his spirits ; and for want of such a Cordiall his heart was even dead within him before he died . I entreated him to plucke up his spirits , and not to yeeld to his disease ; but I perceived , that though Reason be stout when it encounters with faith , yet reason is not so valiant when it is to encounter with affliction : and I cannot but observe , that many a Parliament-souldier hath been more chearfull in a prison , then this discoursing Engineer , and learned Captive was in a Palace : Beleeve it , Reader , beleeve it , that neither gifts , nor parts , nor profession , nor any thing else but faith , will sustaine the spirit of a man in spirituall straights and worldly encombrances , when without there are fightings , and within there are fears . Another reason there was , which ( as I conceive ) was very destructive to this Man of Reason ; he was disrelished , and ( I beleeve ) abused by most of the great Officers who were taken Prisoners in Arundell-castle ; they looked upon him as an intruder into their councells of warre , and ( as one of them whispered ) the Queens intelligencer , who was set as a Spie over them and all their proceedings . When Major Molins came to treat , hee spake very coldly for Master Chillingworth ; and a greater Commander then he , told me , that they were bound to curse that little Priest to the pit of hell , for he had been the ruine of them all : I replyed in his behalfe , that I wondered much that they should make so weake an Apology , for I could not beleeve that Master Chillingworths single Vote could turn their Councell of warre round , and make them giddy : The ingenious Gentleman made use of the liberty of his judgement , and replyed ; Sir , Master Chillingworth hath so much credit at the Court , and the Court-councell hath so much influence into our military Councell , that we were even over-awed , and durst not contradict Master Chillingworth , for feare lest our owne resolutions might succeed ill , and then his counsell would have been esteemed the better . I told the Gentleman , that I thought Master Chillingworth wanted experience for the ordering of military affaires , and therefore could not well apply the generall rules of reason aright , and bring them downe to practise in cases which were difficult , because unusuall . The Gentleman replyed , Sir , Master Chillingworth is so confident of his great wit and parts , that hee conceives himselfe able to manage martiall affaires , in which hee hath no experience , by the strength of his owne wit and reason : Sir ( quoth I ) you may forgive him , for though I hope to bee saved by faith , yet Master Chillingworth hopes that a man may be saved by reason , and therefore you may well give him leave to fight by reason . Sir ( saith that witty Gentleman ) I confesse it is a sad objection , which I know not how to answere ; and so in stead of an answere we went to dinner . But I did examine the businesse impartially afterwards , and perceive that these great Commanders have grossely abused Master Chillingworth , in laying all the blame upon him , as if he were guilty of losing the out-workes , the Towne , the Castle , and all ; and therefore I shall doe Master Chillingworth so much right , as to offer some considerations , which may tend to his excuse or vindication : For what though Master Chillingworth were the grand-Engineer at Glocester and Arundel , and both projects failed , the fault might be in the Officers and Souldiers , and not in the Engineer : Put the case the Lord Hopton , Baron of Stratton , Field-Marshall-generall of the West , promise to bring three thousand men , and the Engineer make a line of Communication which cannot be defended with fewer then two thousand ; but the field-Marshall doth in the mean time forget himselfe , and quarter his men in three or foure Maniples ; but his enemy being a more wary and prudent Commander , keeps his men in a contracted and compact body , which is too strong for the best of his Maniples , and falls upon one of the field-Marshals Quarters , takes and kills neare upon a thousand men , and the field-Marshall by such an unexpected blow is utterly disabled for the fulfilling of his promise , of sending three thousand , nay is not able to send above 1500 men : shall the Engineer or the field-Marshall be blamed in such a case ? Nay , what if the enemy advance before the Engineer hath quite finished his workes ? yet if he hath made them defensible against any sudden onset , and the Souldiers , which should defend the works , quit their Trenches , and runne all away , before any one man be slaine in the Trenches , shall the Engineere be blamed in such a case , or the Souldiers , who were stricken with feare when there was no considerable cause of feare ? Finally , if the Lord of Hosts , who did strike a terrour to the very heart of the Souldiers , doe shew himselfe a God of wisdome , and infatuate the counsels of the grand Achitophels ; nay , shew himselfe a sin-revenging God , and smite the Souldiers in the Castle with deadly diseases , with one Pox more then they carried in with them , with the Flux , the Calenture , the spotted . Feaver , and the like : if in the midst of these distresses the Souldiers breake forth into a mutinous flame , and set all their fellowes in a combustion , must the Engineer bee blamed if the Castle be surrendred in such a case ? Now I appeale to their Councell of Warre , whether their case were not so like to these cases which have beene put , that it is hard to say wherein they differed . Let not then Master Chillingworth be charged with more faults then he was guilty of ; I cannot but vindicate his reputation from all false aspersions , which are cast upon him by some who know not how to excuse themselves : I tooke all the care I could of his body whilest he was sicke , and will ( as farre as he was innocent ) take care of his fame and reputation now he is dead : nay , whilest he was alive , I tooke care of something more precious then his health or reputation , to wit , his precious and beloved soule ; for in compassion to his foule I dealt freely and plainly with him , and told him that he had been very active in fomenting these bloudy warres against the Parliament and Common-wealth of England , his naturall countrey , and by consequent , against the very light of nature : I acknowledge ( saith he ) that I have beene active in these warres , but I have ever followed the dictates of my conscience ; and if you convince me that I am in an errour , you shall not finde me obstinate . I told him , I conceived that he might want sleep , being at that time newly come out of the Castle , and therefore I gave him time to refresh himselfe : and when I came to him againe , I asked him whether he was fit for discourse ; he told me , yes , but somewhat faintly : I certified him , that I did not desire to take him at the lowest , when his spirits were flatted and his reason disturbed , but had much rather undertake him when he was at the highest , because I came prepared to receive satisfaction , and looked upon my selfe as unlikely to give satisfaction to one , whom I acknowledged so much above mee , in regard of his parts , gifts , experience ; he having studied bookes and men , and more accurately discussed that question of State then ever I had done . He then told me , that he was pretty well refreshed , and as able ( as he used to be in these times of distraction ) for any discourse about that great controversie of State . He desired me to begin : I satisfied his desire , and told him that it would be very requisite in the first place to state the Question aright ; for ( as I conceived ) many ingenious men were grossely mistaken even in the very state of the Question . First then be pleased ( quoth I ) to consider , that the originall difference was not between the King and the Parliament , but between the Parliament and Delinquents ; and indeed , betweene the Queen and the Parliament : I told him , that hee could not be ignorant that upon the fourth of January , two yeares agoe , the King went unto the Parliament upon the Queens errand ; and I beleeved that he knew better then I , how much the Queen was discontented , because her bloody designe was not put in execution : He told me , that he could not deny it , and he would not excuse it . When I was going on to discourse about other matters of fact , he confessed very honestly , that he did now perceive , that they had no certaine information of matters of fact at Oxford : whereby I perceived that it was no wonder that so many brave men were seduced to fight against the Parliament . Vpon further discourse , he told me that he observed a great deale of piety in the Commanders and Souldiers of the Parliaments Army : I confesse ( sath he ) their discourse and behaviour doth speake them Christians , but I can finde little of God or godlinesse in our men ; they will not seeke God whilest they are in their bravery , nor trust him when they are in distresse ; I have much adoe ( saith he ) to bring them upon their knees , to call upon God , or to resigne themselves up to God , when they goe on upon any desperate service , or are cast into any perplexed condition . I liked him well , when I heard him run on so fluently to this effect , and I closed with him , and desired him to tell me freely , whether in good earnest he thought the Parliament did intend any thing else then the taking of the wicked from before the King , the establishing of the Kings throne in justice , the setting up of Christs ordinances in power , purity , liberty , and the setling of the knowne lawes of the land , the priviledges of the Parliament , and liberties of the subjects , in quiet and peace . Sir ( saith he ) I must acknowledge that I doe verily beleeve that the intentions of the Parliament are better then the intentions of the Court , or of that Army which I have followed ; but I conceive that the Parliament takes a wrong course to prosecute and accomplish their good intentions ; for warre is not the way of Iesus Christ . Truely I was ashamed to dispute with him any longer , when he had given me so much advantage : For first , he clearly condemned himselfe for being confederate with them , whose intentions were destructive ; because no man must promote an ill designe by any meanes whatsoever , be they never so lawfull . Secondly , he confessed himselfe cleane out of his way when he was in Armes ; for warre , saith he , ( and he learnt to say so of the Anabaptists and Socinians ) is not the way of Iesus Christ ; all that he could say for himselfe was , that he had no command in the Army ; and yet their greatest Officers told me , that in a true construction there was no man else that had a command to any purpose , but Master Chillingworth . And as touching their intentions , it is no hard matter to guesse at the intentions of the French and Spanish faction at Court , or the Irish intentions of the Papists , Prelates , Delinquents , &c. that follow the Queens Army . I am sure one of the Captains that was taken Prisoner at Arundell , had a Spanish head , a French nose , and an Irish heart : And there was a Letter found in Arundell-Castle , which was directed to Master Beckingham , the Earle of Arundels Receiver , which doth declare the good intentions of the Queens Army . I took a copy of it , which I will here transcribe word for word . Good Mr Beckingham , I Doubt not but you are acquainted with the generall and voluntary contribution of the whole Catholikes of this Kingdome , both to declare the true affection of their hearts towards his Majesty , in this , as in all other occasions : as also to exhibite such aid as their estates doe afford , to assist his Majesty in this present businesse , which doth concerne each one in particular . The monies which the Catholikes are to give , must be presented this Terme , and therefore I entreat you that you will be pleased that what your liberality will bestow in so good a cause , you will cause it to be delivered to me in London , and I shall give ( an account thereof to such as it doth concern , and ) you a sufficient discharge . The subscription and name was torne away . I need not make any observations upon this Letter , it speakes for it selfe ; and it speaks so bad English , and such perfect policy , that I beleeve the man that writ it was no Englishman borne . There was a Commission found there likewise ( which doth declare their good intentions ) directed to Sir Edward Ford , &c. to secure the persons of all men in Sussex , who had contributed to the Parliament , and to seize their estates , and sell their goods to the utmost value , for the best advantage of his Majesty ; and the Commissioners were to give an account of their service to the field-Marshall Generall , Baron of Stratten , Commander in chiefe of all his Majesties forces in Surrey , Sussex , Kent , &c. Now their intentions are as you see : And as touching the meanes used , Master Chillingworth himself would not say that the Queen and her adherents , Prelates , Papists , Delinquents , Malignants , of the French conspiracy , the Spanish faction , or the Irish Rebellion , and their confederates , doe take better courses , and use more lawfull meanes to accomplish their intentions , and bring about their designes , then the Parliament of England , the Kingdome of Scotland , and the Protestants in Ireland : since then Master Chillingworth did ( as all ingenuous and active spirits doe ) detest Neutrality , hee might have seene ( for hee had light enough to see ) the way of Jesus Christ . I desired him to tell me , whether the highest Court of justice in the Kingdome may not compell Delinquents ( who are protected by force against Law ) to come in by force of Armes , that they may be tryed according to Law ? First , hee acknowledged that the Parliament is the highest Court ; and therefore ( I conclude ) not to be controlled by some few of the Kings Councell , or by a pretended Assembly , consisting of Fugitives and Delinquents . Secondly , saith he , I must deale plainly with you , though the Parliament hath voted some to be Delinquents , and the Queen her selfe to be a Traitour , yet I doe not beleeve that their judgement is infallible . I was able to answere him out of his owne booke , that the judgment of a Court or person ( especially where there is evidence of the fact ) may be certaine , though that Court or person be not infallible : Secondly , though the judgment of the highest Court be not infallible , yet it is finall , and therefore we cannot appeale from the judgement of the Parliament , to any Court , but the Court of heaven . True , ( saith Master Chillingworth ) but this is it which stickes with me , that there is no fundamentall constitution for the government of this Kingdome by a standing Parliament : To which I had many answers to returne ; first , there is a fundamentall constitution for the government of this Kingdome by the three Estates : secondly , there is a Law for the frequency of Parliaments : and thirdly , the vertue and strength of every Parliament continues in the Acts of every Parliament , by which the Kingdome is governed , even after the dissolution of that Parliament ; every Parliament doth live in its unrepealed Acts , and therefore lives even after its dissolution ; and in that respect wee have many Parliaments yet standing ; some old Elisabeth-Parliaments doe as yet live , breath , move , and operate , with strength and vigour : fourthly , there is an Act passed for the continuance of this Parliament , by the unanimous consent of all three Estates ; and the Kings Councell could not find any other probable meanes under heaven for the dis-engaging of his Majesty , then the framing and passing of that Act of continuance . Master Chillingworth ( putting off his hat ) cryed , I acknowledge that Act with all reverence , and there is your strength . He seemed pretty well satisfied with that answere ; and as touching the way of Jesus Christ , I desired to know whether the Saints were not to make warre against the Whore and the Beast ? Whether it be not an act of charity , for Protestants to lay downe their lives for their Brethren ? Whether it be not an act of faith , to waxe valiant in fight for the defence of that faith , which was once delivered to the Saints ? I perceived my Gentleman somewhat puzled , and I tooke my leave , that he might take his rest . My heart was moved with compassion towards him , and I gave him many visits after this first visit ; but I seldome found him in fit case to discourse , because his disease grew stronger and stronger , and he weaker and weaker : I des●red to know his opinion concerning that Liturgy which hath beene formerly so much extolled , and even idolized amongst the people ; but all the answer that I could get was to this purpose , that there were some truths which the Ministers of the Gospel are not bound upon paine of damnation to publish to the people : and indeed he conceived it very unfit to publish any thing concerning the Common-Prayer-Book , or the Book of Ordination &c. for feare of scandall . I was sorry to heare such an answer drop from a dying man and I conceived it could not but be much more scandalous , to seduce or hoodwink the people , then to instruct and edifie them in a point which did directly concerne the publike worship of God in this Land . When I found him pretty hearty one day , I desired him to tell me , whether he conceived that a man living and dying a Turk , Papist , or Socinian , could be saved ? All the answer that I could gaine from him was , that he did not absolve them , and would not condemne them . I was much displeased with the answer upon divers reasons : First , because the question was put home , of a man living and dying , so or so . Secondly , it was frivolous to talk of Absolution , for it was out of question that he could not absolve them . Thirdly , it shewed that he was too well perswaded of Turcism and Socinianism , which runne exactly parallel in too many points . Fourthly , he seems to Anathematize the Socinians in the Preface to the Author of Charity , maintained Sect. 28. when Knot had reckoned up some Socinian Tenets , Mr Chillingworth answers , Whosoever teaches or holds them , let him be Anathema . I have not Knots Book by me now , I meane his direction to N. N. and Mr Chillingworth was so wise as not to reckon up the number of those impious doctrins , or name them in particular , because they were all fathered upon him , and he would not assist Mr Knot so farre in the spreading of his owne undeserved defamation , ibid. Sect. 28. I am afraid that Knot reckoned up too many points of Socinianism , or did not forme his Interrogations aright , and then Mr Chillingworth might safely anathematize , and yet be a Socinian in many points which were not reckoned up , or not well expressed ; And yet his Anathema is warily pronounced , he doth not say , Whosoever teaches or holds them or any of them , let him be Anathema . Moreover , if the Socinians be asked , whether Christ be God , they will say , Yes ; but then they meane that he is the Sonne of God , borne after an extraordinary manner by the overshadowing of the holy Ghost , Luke 1. 31 , 32 , 35. or that the word of God came unto him , and therefore is called God , because of his extraordinary Commission from God , or the like , Iohn 10. 35. Now either Mr Chillingworth was guilty of some such equivocation and fly evasion , or else he grew worse and worse , and would not anathematize a grosse Socinian . And if in these latter dayes Seducers grow worse and worse , I shall not wonder at it , 2 Tim. 3. 13. When Mr Chillingworth saw himselfe entangled in disputes , he desired me that I would deale charitably with him , for , saith he , I was ever a charitable man : my answer was somewhat tart , and therefore the more charitable , considering his condition , and the counsell of the Apostle , Titus 1. 13. Rebuke them sharply , or ( as Beza hath it ) precisely , that they may be sound in the faith ; And I desire not to conceale my tartnesse , it was to this effect : Sir , it is confessed that you have beene very excessive in your charity ; you have lavished out so much charity upon Turks , Socinians , Papists , that I am afraid you have very little to spare for a truly reformed Protestant ; sure I am , the zealous Protestants finde very little charity at Oxford . The last time I visited him , was on the Lords day , for I thought it a Sabbath-duty , and then he began to speak of some questions which I formerly propounded to him , whereof this was one ; Whether Tyranny was Gods Ordinance ? I presently took him off from that discourse , because I knew he had beene laid up fast by that argument before ; for it is impossible that any man should ever prove , that Tyranny is not to be resisted upon this ground , because we must not resist Gods Ordinance , unlesse they could prove , that which is blasphemy to mention , viz. That Tyranny is Gods Ordinance . I desired him that he would now take off his thoughts from all matters of Speculation , and fix upon some practicall point which might make for his Edification . He thanked me ( as I hope ) very heartily , and told me that in all points of Religion he was setled , and had fully expressed himselfe for the satisfaction of others in his Book , which was approved and licensed by very learned and judicious Divines . Upon further discourse I began to tell him what meditation did most comfort me in times of Extremity : and I added that the meditation was very proper for a man in his condition , if he could lay hold upon the Covenant of Grace . I made choise of that Scripture , 2 Sam. 23. the five first verses ; and I began to open the fifth verse a little to him : I told him that all our hopes of salvation are grounded upon the Covenant of Grace , for it is a sure Covenant , an ordered Covenant , nay , a Covenant in all things ordered and sure , an everlasting Covenant , a saving Covenant ; they were Davids last words , this is all my salvation . And I presse this point the rather , because he doth acknowledge in his Book , that the Doctrine about the Covenant is a Fundamentall Doctrine ; and because his expressions are very imperfect and obscure in his subtle Book , I was in good hope that he would have explained himselfe more fully and clearly in that Fundamentall point ; but I could not obtaine what I desired . Not long after I told him , that I did use to pray for him in private , and asked him whether it was his desire that I should pray for him in publique : he answered , yes , with all his heart ; and he said withall , that he hoped he should fare the better for my prayers . I observed that Mr Chillingworth was much troubled with a sore throat , and oppressed with tough phlegme , which would certainly choak him up ▪ if there were not some sudden remedy . I sent therefore to a Chirurgeon , one of Mr Chillingworths beliefe , an able man , that pleased him well , and gave him some ease . And the next day being Munday , at our morning-exercise in the Cathedrall , I desired the souldiers and Citizens that they would in their prayers remember the distressed estate of Mr Chillingworth a sick Prisoner in the City , a man very eminent for the strength of his parts , the excellency of his gifts , and the depth of his learning : I told them that they were commanded to love their enemies , and therefore were bound to pray for them , especially when God moved the heart of an enemy to desire their prayers : We prayed heartily that God would be pleased to bestow saving graces as well as excellent gifts upon him , that so all his gifts might be improved and sanctified : we desired that God would give him new light , and new eyes , that he might see , acknowledge , and recant his errours , that he might deny his carnall reason , and submit to faith : that God would blesse all meanes which were used for his recovery , &c. I beleeve none of his friends or my enemies can deny that we made a respectfull and Christian mention of him in our prayers . The same day I rid to Arundel to move the Doctor to come over againe to visit Mr Chillingworth , but the Doctour was sent for out of Town ( before I got thither ) to visit Sir William Springot , and so I lost my journey , and the Doctour saw him no more . In my absence a religious Officer of Chichester garrison followed my suit to Mr Chillingworth , and entreated him to declare himselfe in point of Religion ; but Mr Chillingworth appealed to his Book againe , and said he was setled , as you may see it more largely set down in Mr Edmonds his Testimony before . From my first visitation of Mr Chillingworth to the last , I did not finde him in a condition which might any way move mee ( had I beene his deadly enemy ) either to flatter or envy him , but rather to pity and pray for him , as you see I did . I dare appeale to his eminent and learned friends , whether there could bee more mercy shewn to his body , or charity to his soule , whilst he was alive ? Consider what it is worth to have a fortnights space to repent in . O what would Dives have proffered for such a mercy ? if Mr Chillingworth did not emprove it , that was not fault of mine ; And shall not my charity to his soule and body whilest he was alive , acquit me from being uncharitable towards him after his death ? No reasonable man will deeme mee guilty of such an uncharitable madnesse as to be angry with a carcasse , or to goe wrestle with a ghost ; for I consider that his ghost might cry in faciem sepeli , Bury me with my face downward , if you please , for when the Macedonians ( give me leave to change the story a little , and say ▪ when the Irish ) come , and they were then neare us , they will turn all upside down : I am no Sylla , I did not give any command to scatter the reliques of Marius : though I have not much Wisedome , yet I have more charity then to deserve that lash of the Oratour , He had beene more wise had he beene lesse violent ; and yet I will confesse that I am , and ought to be violent for Christ and Heaven , and my passions are too often as hot as my zeale , but They may beare with small faults , and in this businesse I have proceeded with deliberation and moderation : I consider that I am in the body , and my body may be delivered ( I know not how soone ) into the enemies hand ; I doe not expect ( though I might desire ) that halfe that mercy which I shewed to Master Chillingworth may be shewen to me ; Defunctorum cineribus violentiam inferre sacrilega praesumptio est , is a Rule ( if I mistake not ) in the Civill Law ; and I shall be able to justifie my carriage in the businesse of his Funerall to the face of his greatest Patrons , from all inhumanity or sacriledge , Sacrilegae bustis abstinuere manus . Let us ( if you please ) take a view of all our proceedings , and of Master Chillingworths opinions , and then ( I am afraid ) some will say there was a little foolish pity shewed on my part and the uncharitablenesse will be found in them onely , who censure me for want of charity . First , there were all things which may any way appertaine to the civility of a funerall , though there was nothing which belongs to the superstition of a funerall : His body was decently laid in a convenient coff●n , covered with a mourning Hersecloth , more seemly ( as I conceive ) then the usuall covering , patched up out of the mouldy reliques of some moth-eaten copes : His friends were entertained ( according to their owne desire ) with Wine and Cakes ; though that is , in my conceit , a turning of the house of mourning into an house of banqueting : All that offered themselves to carry his corps out of pure devotion , because they were men of his perswasion , had every one of them ( according to the custome of the countrey ) a branch of Rosemary , amourning Ribband , and a paire of Gloves . But ( as it doth become an impartiall Historian ) I confesse there were three severall opinions concerning his buriall . The first opinion was negative and peremptory , That hee ought not to be buried like a Christian , 1. Who refused to make a full and free confession of Christian Religion : 2. Nay , if there had been nothing else against him , but his taking up of Armes against his countrey , that they conceived a sufficient reason to deny the buriall of his corps . I will not trouble you with many reasons , that one place of Scripture was to them in stead of many reasons , to prove that an Heathen might be buried in all the outward pompe and glory that can be devised , rather then one who hath destroyed his owne land , and slaine his own people , Isa. 14. 18 , 19 , 20. All the Kings of the Nations , even all of them lye in glory , every one in his owne house ; But thou art cast out of thy grave , like an abominable branch , and as the raiment of those that are slaine , thrust thorow with a sword , that go downe to the stones of the pit , as a carcasse trodden under feet : Thou shalt not be joyned with them in buriall , because thou hast destroyed thy land , and slaine thy people , ( marke that Reason : ) the seed of evill doers shall never bee renowned . In the third place , some were bold to say that he was Felo de se , guilty of his owne death , by his foole-hardinesse . Finally , it was alledged that he was an Heretick , no member of any of the Reformed Churches , and therefore to be reckoned as an Excommunicated person ; now you know what law it is which denieth buriall to Heretikes , and Excommunicated persons , though they be excommunicated for inconformity onely , for not appearing , or not paying of 3. s. 4. d. or some such like cause ; Read Pickerings Case in the high Commission . The truth is , we looked upon Master Chillingworth as a kinde of Non-conformist , nay ( to speake strictly ) a Recusant rather then a Non-conformist ; for Non-conformists refuse to subscribe to Canons which concerne Discipline , but Master Chillingworth refused to subscribe some Articles of Religion , as he himselfe acknowledges though he thought charitably of them who did subscribe them : For ( he saith ) he doth not undertake the peculiar defence of the Church of England , but the common cause of Protestants ; and yet he doth not hold the doctrine of all Protestants true , because they hold contradictions , yet he conceived them free from all errour destructive of salvation : and though he did make scruple of subscribing the truth of one or two Propositions , yet he thought himselfe fit enough to maintaine , that those who doe subscribe them are in a saveable condition , See the Preface to the Author of Charity maintained Sect. 39. You see Master Chillingworth did refuse to subscribe . What thinke ye ( Gentlemen are not Chichester men pretty good Disputants ? Can you confute these Reasons ? If you can ; doe your best ; if you cannot , I have no reason to prompt you ; scratch your heads , beat your deskes , bite your nailes , and I will goe sleep , and will not heare what they said of Master Chillingworths Argument on Fieldings case . The second opinion was your opinion , and the opinion of such as you are , my good friends at Athens ; the men of a Cathedrall spirit thought it fit that Master Chillingworth , being a member of a Cathedrall , should be buried in the Cathedrall ; and being Cancellarius , it was conceived that he should be buried intra cancellos , and rot under the Altar , neare the pot of Incense , that the constant perfume of the Incense might excuse the thrift of his Executrix — Ossa inodora dedit . It was answered , that he was of or belonging to the Cathedrall at Sarum , and therefore they might carry him thither ; but then his Will could not be performed , because he desired to be buried at Chichester , in case he did end his dayes in that City . But some more serious conceived , that this desire of burying him intra cancellos was but the issue of a superstitious conceit , that the Chancell , or sanctum sanctorum , was more holy then other places ; and the carcasse of a Priest as sacred as that holy ground : And it was their opinion that a modest and well-grounded deniall of this request , would be the most effectuall confutation of that superstitious conceit . The ground of the deniall was Master Chillingworths phantasie , viz. That there are two wayes to make men faithfull , ( and consequently to bring them to Heaven ) without either necessity of Scripture or Church ; his words are these ; And Saint Paul tells us , that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} might be knowne by his workes , and that they had the Law written in their hearts : Either of these wayes might make some faithfull men , without either necessity of Scripture or Church , Cap. 2. Sect. 124. pag. 100. the first Edition : Now shew me any place of Scripture ( say they ) to prove that such a mans corps should be buried in the Church , who maintaines that men may be saved without Church or Scripture . This passage is the more observable , because in some places of his booke he would beare us in hand , that he doth not thinke that Heathens shall be immediately saved without faith in Christ ; See chap 3. Sect. 13. pag. 133. but you see he doth not mince the matter in the place fore-cited , for it is cleare and evident that there is nothing of the Gospel written in the heart by nature , or in any of the workes of God by the first creation . The third opinion ( which prevailed ) was this , that it would be fittest to permit the men of his owne perswasion , out of meere humanity , to bury their dead out of our sight ; and to bury him in the cloysters , amongst the old Shavelings , Monkes , and Priests , of whom he had so good an opinion all his life . The Prelaticall men doe conceive , that there is a kinde of holinesse in a cloyster ; no excommunicated person must be buried there , unlesse there be an absolution sent , either before the death of the party , or to the dead corps , ( which they must call their beloved brother ) because they themselves are as lothsome and rotten as the corps : Nay , a Papist must not be buried in the Cloysters without speciall dispensation from the Bishop ; and you know the Prelates would dispense with Papists alive or dead . It is usuall to bury men of good rank and quality in Collegiate Cloysters ; and sure I am , the Cavaliers doe not bury their dead so honourably , though they esteeme them the Queenes Martyrs , they throw them into ditches or rivers . Finally , Mr Chillingworths bones shall rest without any disturbance , he shall not be used as Wicliffe was by Papists , or as Bucer was served by the Prelaticall faction at Cambridge , who vouchsafed him an Honourable buriall in the dayes of Edward the sixth , anno 1551. because they knew it would be an acceptable service in the eyes of Saint Edward , as judicious Hooker styles him ; but in the dayes of Queen Mary ( the first of that name ) the same men plucked him out of his grave againe after an inhumane and barbarous manner : but in Queen Elizabeths dayes , the same men wheeled about a third time , and made an honourable commemoration of him againe in Panegyricall Orations , and flattering verses . Mr Chillingworth was buried by day , and therefore we had no Torches or Candles at his grave . Tertullian assures me , that the Christians used no such custome , though the Heathens did , and the Antichristians now doe . Non frangimus lucernis , lucem Dei . I know no reason why Candles were used by Heathens at the Funerall of the dead , but because they did burne the dead bodies . — subjectam more parentum Aversae tenuêre facem — Observe that I say , at the Funerall , for I know full well that they had some Anniversary Commemorations , at which it was usuall to bring Candles , and burne them at Sepulchers in honour of the Dead . I remember a famous instance in Suetonius in the life of Augustus , there is mention made of a great company who flocked together at the Tomb-stone of one Masgabas , who had beene dead about a yeare , and they brought abundance of lights thither , as their custome was . But it is strongly objected that my great and unanswerable fault was , that I did in extremo actu deficere , I refused to bury him my selfe , and left it to others : Sirs , I confesse it , and shall deale freely and candidly in the businesse . First , Mr Chillingworth in his life time , desired to have some part of the Common-prayer-book read over his Corps at the grave in case it should please God to take him away into another world by that sicknesse . Now I could not yeeld to this request of his for many reasons which I need not specifie ; yet I shall say enough to give satisfaction to reasonable and modest men . I conceive it absurd and sinfull to use the same forme of words at the buriall of all manner of persons ; namely , to insinuate that they are all elected , that they doe all rest in Christ , that we have sure and certaine hope of their salvation , &c. these and the like passages I durst not make use of upon that occasion ; and all this , and a great deale more , was desired by Mr Chillingworth : blame me not if I did choose rather to satisfie my owne conscience , then his desire ; for what learned Doctor Vsher saith of more Ancient Formes of praise and prayer , is true of these passages ; which kinde of Intercessions , &c. proved an occasion of confirming men in divers errours , especially when they began once to be applied not only to the good but to evill livers also , unto whom by the first institution they never were intended . Dr Vsher his Answer to the Jesuites Challenge , pag. 192. Edit. London 1625. Secondly , I doe not know to what end and purpose wee should pray over the dead , unlesse we conceive it fitting to pray for the dead . I doe consider upon what slight occasions the people have heretofore runne into intolerable errours ; and there is a kinde of naturall superstition ingraffed in the minde of ingenuous men in this great businesse : men are apt to slide out of their civility and blinde devotion , into detestable superstition . They who began to complement with the dead at first , did little dream that their Complements should be urged as Arguments to prove that we may make prayers to the dead : and yet they who have searched farthest into the originall of that rotten superstition , and grosse idolatry , doe as clearly demonstrate my observation to be solid and rationall , as if it were a truth written with a Sun-beame : Take Doctor Fields observation upon this Argument ; Notwithstanding ( saith he ) it is most certaine that many particular men extended the meaning of these Prayers further &c. — and so it is true ( saith Doctor Field ) that Calvin saith , That many of the Fathers were led into errour in this matter of prayer for the dead , &c. See his third Booke of the Church , and the 17 Chapter . They conceived that the Saints continue their love to their brethren which they left behind them , that therefore they recommend to God those particular necessities of their brethren , which were made knowne to them here : nay , they did entreat Saints , lying on their death-beds , not to forget their friends on earth when they were translated to heaven . Adde to this , their reckoning up the names of Martyrs at the Eucharist ; the Sacrifice of praise ; the anniversary commemorations , and Panegyricall Orations , on the severall dayes of their friends death , and I need say no more : Read the same Author ( Doctor Field ) in the same Book , the 20 chapter , and you will be satisfied . When I read of Funeralls in the old Testament , celebrated in the presence of Idolaters mingled with the faithfull servants of God , is there any probability that there were any Prayers made over the dead corps ? would the Idolaters have joined with the faithfull in any spirituall exercise of Religion presented to the true God ? The Heathens had strange conceits , that by Prayers and Sacrifices Persephone might be appeased , and so the deceased party fare much the better for the sacrifices , or the prayers ; ( shadowed by the Sacrifices ) for with them the Devill was worshipped , and so ( as they thought ) appeased : Read Doctor Reynolds in the first Tome of his prelections on the Apocrypha , pag. 1498. Itaque Persephone & sacrificiis & precibus placabatur ab Vlysse , Odyssea 11. Apollonius apud Philostratum lib. 4. cap. 5. qui negat sibi opus fuisse , obtulit tamen preces & orationes ; atque ita , aut sacrificiis , aut orationibus , quas sacrificia adumbrabant , placabatur Sathanas , colebatur & adorabatur . Now if prayers were made over the dead by Heathenish Idolaters , and are still made by Romish Idolaters ; and the Reformed Churches have no such custome ; I humbly conceive that I shall not be condemned by any sober Christian , for not imitating Heathens or Papists . Be pleased to observe the practise of Reformed Churches , and then you will not deeme me singular in my opinion . There was a Liturgy printed not long since , and presented to the Parliament , ( let it not be thought the worse because it came from Geneva , or because it is said to be approved by Mr. Calvin , and the Church of Scotland ) and in that Liturgy you shall find that there was no great store of Service said or done at the interring of the dead corps : The corps is reverently brought to the Grave , without any further Ceremonies ; which being buried , the Minister , if he be present and required , ( observe those two limitations ) goeth to the Church , if it be not farre off , ( marke that likewise ) and maketh some comfortable exhortation to the people , touching death and resurrection . You see that in their judgement the corps may be reverently interred without a Minister ; yet if he be present , there are no prayers appointed to be said over the dead body ; but the Minister is to repaire to the Church , and preach to the Congregation , as I did upon the advantage of the like occasion . The practise of the Church of Scotland is set forth by that reverend and learned Commissioner of Scotland , Master Rutherford , Professour of Divinity at Saint Andrewes , cap. 20. art . 9. p. 319. in these words : Interring and buriall is not performed in the Word of God with preaching , reading Service over the dead , singing Scniptures ( as Papists ) which tend to superstition , &c. — The place of buriall with us is not under the Altar , or the place of Assembling ( the Church ) for the Word or Sacraments , as Papists do , but in some publike place , either near the Church , or some inclosed field ; because the Jewes buried sometimes in a Cave , Gen. 25. 9. sometimes in a Valley , Deut. 34. 6. somtimes in a garden , Joh. 19. 41. I hope you wil not say at Oxford that there 's no Christian buriall to be had in Scotland , because they doe not interre the corps in the Church , or read Service over the dead . But however you 'll say it must be acknowledged that singing of Hymnes , and {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} were used of old amongst funerall offices . To which I answere , that the learned Doctor Vsher proves out of the Author of the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy , that such a Rite could not be observed in its pomp and glory unlesse there had been some Bishop present , at whose sacred hands the dead body might receive as it were a sacred coronation . 2. The singing of Psalmes , and these thanksgiving prayers , are not signes of mourning , but rejoicing : and how it would have been interpreted at Oxford ( you may judge ) had we shewne the least signe of rejoicing at the fall of such a subtile enemy . 3. In those hymnes and Psalmes they did expresse their confidence , that the deceased party was crowned in glory ; and of that I have said enough above , to shew that I had no such confidence . But if any of Master Chillingworths Catholike friends at Oxford should speake out , and tell me that there may ( as Augustine saith ) be Petitions and Propitiations , made for men that are not very bad , after their death ; I will ingenuously confesse that Augustines judgment was very unsetled in this point , and diverse of his expressions are inexcusable : But to answere them according to their folly , if they conceive that Master Chillingworth was a Martyr for the Catholike cause , they will likewise acknowledge ( as Augustine in sundry places doth ) that to frame Petitions for a Martyr after his death , is an injury to the Martyr , and to the cause for which he suffered . If any man doe yet remaine unsatisfied , let him consider , that had I conceived it fitting to read some Service over a dead corps , yet it could not be expected in reason and equity that I should performe this last office to the body of Master Chillingworth : For it is well knowne , that long before these unnaturall and bloudy warres , in the times of greatest compliance , I never gave Mr Chillingworth the right hand of fellowship , but did freely and constantly protest against those damnable heresies , which he did cunningly subintroduce & vent in this Kingdom , not onely whilest he was a professed Papist , but since his pretended conversion , ( give me leave to call it so ) you will see there is good ground for that diminishing term , when you come to read the Catechism anon . I am not ashamed to tell the whole Vniversity , the whole Kingdome , that I never looked upon Master Chillingworth as my brother , in a religious respect , for we were not men of the same Religion , or Communion : to speak plaine we were not members of the same Church , for ( as he saith truely in his subtile booke ) they who differ in Fundamentall points are not members of the same Church one with another , any more then Protestants are members of the same Church with Papists . Chap. 3. Sect. 9. pag. 131. Finally , it was favour enough to permit Master Chillingworths disciples or followers , the men of his perswasion , to perform this last office to their friend and Master . Now there was free liberty granted to all the Malignants in the City to attend the Herse , and interre his corps . Sure I am , that if Mr Chillingworth had beene as Orthodoxe and zealous a Preacher as John the Baptist was , he might have had as honourable a buriall as John the Baptist had ; for all the honour that John had , was to be buried by his owne Disciples , Matth. 14. 12. If the doctrine of this eminent Scholar was hereticall , and his Disciples were Malignants , I am not guilty of that difference . As devout Stephen was carried to his buriall by devout men , so is it just and equall that Malignants should carry Malignants to their grave . By Malignants I meane such kinde of men who joyne with the enemy , or are willing upon any occasion offered to joyne with him , to promote the Antichristian Designe now on foot ; those , and onely those , I call Malignants . When the Malignants brought his Herse to the buriall , I met them at the grave with Master Chillingworths booke in my hand ; at the buriall of which booke I conceived it fit to make this little speech following . A Speech made at the Funerall of Mr Chillingworths mortall Booke . BRethren , it was the earnest desire of that eminent Scholar , whose body lyes here before you , that his corps might be interred according to the Rites and customs approved in the English Liturgy , and in most places of this Kingdom heretofore received : but his second request ( in case that were denied him ) was , that he might be buried in this City , after such a manner as might be obtained , in these times of unhappy difference and bloudy warres . His first request is denied for many reasons , of which you cannot be ignorant . It is too well knowne that he was once a professed Papist , and a grand seducer ; he perverted divers persons of consider●●●●●anke and quality ; and I have good cause to beleeve that his ●…e to England , commonly called his Conversion , was but a false and pretended Conversion : And for my owne part , I am fully convinced that he did not live or dye a genuine Sonne of the Church of England ; I retaine the usuall phrase , that you may know what I meane ; I meane , he was not of that Faith or Religion , which is established by Law in England . Hee hath left that phantasie , which he called his Religion , upon record in this subtile booke : He was not ashamed to print and publish this destructive tenet , That there is no necessity of Church or Scripture to make men faithfull men , in the 100 page of this unhappy booke , and therefore I refuse to bury him my selfe ; yet let his friends and followers , who have attended his Herse to this Golgotha , know , that they are permitted , out of meere humanity , to bury their dead out of our sight . If they please to undertake the buriall of his corps , I shall undertake to bury his errours , which are published in this so much admired , yet unworthy booke ; and happy would it be for this Kingdome , if this booke and all its fellowes could be so buried , that they might never rise more , unlesse it were for a confutation ; and happy would it have been for the Author , if he had repented of those errours , that they might never rise for his condemnation ; Happy , thrice happy will he be , if his workes doe not follow him , if they doe never rise with him , nor against him . Get thee gone then , thou cursed booke , which hast seduced so many precious soules ; get thee gone , thou corrupt rotten booke , earth to earth , and dust to dust ; get thee gone into the place of rottennesse , that thou maist rot with thy Author , and see corruption . So much for the buriall of his errours . Touching the buriall of his corps , I need say no more then this , It will be most proper for the men of his perswasion to commit the body of their deceased Friend , Brother , Master , to the dust , and it will be most proper for me to hearken to that counsell of my Saviour , Luk. 9. 60. Let the dead bury their dead , but go thou and preach the Kingdom of God . And so I went from the grave to the Pulpit , and preached on that Text to the Congregation . Some conceive that I studied on purpose , to picke out the most piercing Text in the Bible ; a Text which doth much reflect upon the party deceased : but these men erre , not knowing the Scriptures ; for had I used that Prayer at Master Chillingworths grave ( which was dictated by the Spirit upon the like occasion , the fall of a great enemy of Israel , Judges 5. 31. ) doubtlesse that Prayer would have reflected more upon the party deceased , and all his surviving party : So let all thine enemies perish , O Lord , but let them that love thee be as the Sunne when he goes forth in his strength . They would have beene more displeased , had I taken that Text , which is applyed to no lesse a man then the sonne of Iosiah , by the Prophet Ieremiah : They shall not lament for him saying , Ah my brother , or , ah sister ▪ — ah Lord , or ah his glory : He shall be buried with the buriall of an asse , drawne and cast forth beyond the gates of Ierusalem , Ierem. 22. 18 , 19. Doubtlesse that man deserves the buriall of an Asse , who beleeves his owne Reason more then the God of truth ; he that dares not condemne , nay , admires those for rationall men , who would reason Christ and the holy Ghost out of their Godhead , and even dispute them both out of the Trinity , doth certainly deserve the buriall of an Asse . Man is born like a wild asses colt , as silly , wild , and coltish as the Colt of a wilde Asse ; and if he prove an old Colt , and perish by his Coltish trickes , wonder not at the sharpe censure of the holy Ghost . You see then there are sharper Texts then this that I pitched upon for the ground of my discourse . Secondly , all that understand that Text , Luke 9. 60. will acknowledge , that the Text did reflect rather upon the living , then the dead . But why then was he buried at all ? I have told you already , his followers were permitted to bury him out of meere Humanity . I pleaded for his buriall from that great example recorded at length by the holy Ghost , 2 Sam. 1. from the eleventh verse to the end of the chapter . Saul you know was forsaken of God long before his death ; the spirit of the Lord , ( the excellent gifts and common graces of the Spirit in particular ) the spirit of government departed from him : Moreover , he consulted a witch , and by her the Devill at Endor , and an evill spirit from the Lord took possession of him ; yet Saul was solemnly buried , bewailed , nay extolled by David for those things which were lovely in him , as you may read in the place forecited , 17 , 21 , 24. verses . And I dare boldly say , that I have beene more sorrowfull for Mr Chillingworth , and mercifull to him , then his friends at Oxford : his sicknesse and obstinacy cost me many a prayer , and many a teare . I did heartily bewaile the losse of such strong parts , and eminent gifts ; the losse of so much learning and diligence . Never did I observe more acutenesse and eloquence so exactly tempered in the same person : Diabolus ab illo ornari cupiebat ; for he had eloquence enough to set a faire varnish upon the foulest designe . He was master of his learning , he had all his arguments in procinctu , and all his notions in numerato . Howle ye firre trees , for a Cedar is fallen : lament ye Sophisters , for the Master of sentences ( shall I say ) or fallacies is vanished : wring your hands , and beat your breasts , yee Antichristian Engineers , for your Arch-engineer is dead , and all his Engines buried with him . Ye daughters of Oxford weep over Chillingworth , for he had a considerable and hopefull project how to clothe you and himselfe in scarlet , and other delights . I am distressed for thee , my brother Chillingworth , ( may his Executrix say ) very pleasant hast thou beene unto me , thy love to me was wonderfull , passing the love of father , husband , brother . O how are the mighty fallen , and the weapons , nay engines of warre perished ! O tell it not in Gath , that he who raised a battery against the Popes chaire , that he might place Reason in the chaire in stead of Antichrist , is dead and gone : publish it not in the streets of Askelon , that he who did at once batter Rome , and undermine England , the Reforming Church of England , that he might prevent a Reformation , is dead ; lest if you publish it , you puzzle all the Conclave , and put them to consider , whether they should mourne or triumph . If any man enquire , whether he hath a Tombe-stone , as well as an Elegy , let him know that we plundered an old Friar of his Tombe-stone , and there is roome enough for an Epitaph if they please to send one from Oxford ; if not , give us leave to say , we have provided a Sepulchre , and it is your fault if you doe not provide a Monument : for as Laurentius Valla the master of Elegances observes , a Monument is nothing else but a speaking Sepulchre : Vixque Monumentum dixerim , nisi literae aut alii tituli appareant , quae si desint , magis sepulchrum quàm monumentum erit . Laur. Vall. Elegant . lib. 4. cap. 75. If there be any man yet unsatisfied , that this great Philosopher , Mathematician , Oratour ( and any thing but what he pretended to be , a Divine ) hath had no more honour at his death , then a plaine Tombe-stone , and such a song of lamentation as was taken up for Saul , let him read this following Catechisme ; and if he be either Papist , or Protestant , he will be satisfied , if he be true to his owne principles . A Prophane Catechisme , collected out of Mr Chillingworths Works . Question . HOw shall I be able to prove to an Atheist , that there is a God , and that the Books of the Old and New Testament are the word of God ? Answ. When Protestants affirme against Papists , that Scripture is a perfect rule of Faith ; their meaning is not , that by Scripture all things Absolutely may be proved , which are to be beléeved ; for it can never bée proved by Scripture to a gain sayer , that there is a God , or that the Book called Scripture is the word of God — for ( as he saith a little before ) nothing is proved true by being said or written in a Book , but only by Tradition , which is a Thing credible of it selfe , chap. 1. p. 55. Sect. 8. the first Edition approved at Oxford . Doubtlesse the Atheists and Papists will give him hearty thanks for this answer , which doth preferre Tradition ( which the Atheist vilifies ) before Scripture , which the Papists vilifie : he hath pleased them both . The Papists will bee well pleased to see this doctrine licensed by the Protestants of the University of Oxford , that Tradition is more credible then Scripture , for Tradition is credible for it selfe ; but the Scripture , when it is to be proved a perfect Rule to us , is credible only by Tradition in Mr Chillingworths conceit , pag. 96. and where shall we meet with this universall Tradition ? 2. But I finde another answer , pag. 53. Tradition may be helped out by naturall Reason . Controversies , wherein the Scripture it selfe is the subject of the question , cannot be determined , saith Mr Chillingworth , but by Naturall Reason , the only principle , beside Scripture , which is common to Christians , cap. 2. sect. 3. And in his marginall observations on a passage of Mr Hookers he layes downe this as a Rule ; Naturall Reason then built on principles common to all men , is the last Resolution , pag. 65. Nay , Reason is in some sort Gods word , see his answer to the Preface , pag. 21. How then ( will the Atheist say ) is Reason credible for it selfe , since ( Mr Chillingworth saith ) that Gods word is not credible for it selfe ? Surely these answers will never bring a man to divine faith ; for to rely upon Tradition , is but to rely upon Humane testimony ; and such as the testimony is , such is the faith : if the testimony , which is the ground of faith , be humane , then the faith cannot be divine . Againe , naturall Reason is not infallible , nor is it able to judge of truths which are above Reason : now it is cleare , that supernaturall truths are above naturall Reason . Finally , faith is not grounded upon Reason , but upon Authority . He gives a third answer , chap. 1. pag. 36. God hath confirmed the doctrine of the Scripture by miracles ; but then he saith , we have nothing to assure us of the truth of those miracles , but Tradition ; and therefore we are not got one steppe nearer faith or Heaven by that shift : and if he flie back to Reason , then consider what he saith , pag. 117. God hath no where commanded men to beleeve all that Reason induceth them to beleeve . Qu. But if this great point must be tried by Reason , what Reason can you produce , to prove the Scripture to be the word of God ? An. There is as good reason for it , as there is to beléeve other stories or matters of Tradition : He requires men to yeeld just such a kinde or degree of assent to the Gospel of Christ , as they yeeld to other stories or matters of Tradition , chap. 1. pag. 37. for God desires us only to beleeve the conclusion as much as the premises deserve , ib. sect. 8. p. 36. And the Chronicle of England , joyned with the generall tradition of our acquaintance , deserves as much credit in Mr Chillingworths conceit , as the Gospel of Christ ; for his words are these , chap. 2. sect. 159. p. 116. 117. Wee have , I beleeve , as great reason to beleeve there was such a man as Henry the eighth King of England , as the Jesus Christ suffered under Pontius Pilate . The Lord rebuke that spirit of errour , which moved the great men of Oxford to license this blasphemy ! What have I no more reason to beleeve the three persons in the holy Trinity , speaking in their glorious Gospel to my heart and conscience , then I have to beleeve Stowes Chronicle ▪ or the generall tradition of my owne acquaintance , or some such other fallible testimony ? Qu. But what if I cannot be assured , that any part of the Scripture is the word of God , may I be saved without beleeving this weighty point ? An. Yes , saith Mr. Chillingworth , chap. 2. sect. 159. if a man should beléeve Christian Religion wholly and entirely , and live according to it , such a man though he should not know , or not beléeve the Scripture to be a Rule of faith , no nor to be the word of God ; my opinion is he may be saved . Excellent Divinity indeed ! what , is not this a principle of Christianity , that Scripture is the word of God , and rule of faith ? and if it be , how then is it possible for a man to beleeve the Christian Religion wholly and entirely , and yet not beleeve this principle ? Yes , I may beléeve the Scripture as I doe Augustins works , pag. 114. Qu. But if I am assured that some Scripture is the word of God , how shall I know what books are Canonicall , and what not ? An. By universall Tradition . I must receive those books for Canonicall , of whose Authority there was never any doubt or question in the Church , pag. 148. I may then , it seems , doubt of the Epistle of James , the second of Peter , the second and third Epistles of John , the Epistle to the Hebrewes , the Epistle of Jude , the book of the Revelation , the books of Job , Esther , Ecclesiastes , &c. He saith , he cannot in reason so undoubtedly beleeve those books to be Canonicall , which have beene questioned , as those which were never questioned . At least I have no warrant to damne any man — that shall deny them now , having the example of Saints in Heaven , either to justifie or excuse such — their deniall , chap. 2. sect. 38. pag. 67. Surely here is a pretty tempting excuse for , if not a justification of those Libertines who question these books , and may upon Mr Chillingworths principles question all the rest , if they acknowledge one of the Gospels , that containes as much as all the rest ; Ergo that is sufficient , pag. 93. 101. But if they beleeve no booke to be Canonicall , and therefore will not assent to any book of Scripture , they doe not commit a sinne of derogation from Gods perfect and pure veracity ; for he onely gives God the lye , who denies some book or point which he himselfe knowes or beleeves to be revealed by God , chap. 3. sect. 15 , 16 , 17. Now it is impossible that a man should know one thing to be true , and beleeve the contrary ; or know it and not beleeve it , sect. 18. Whither these and the like principles ( which frequently occurre in his writings ) tend , let the most sober and charitable men judge . The only Fundamentall Errour in Mr Chillingworths judgement , is to deny something which the party himselfe knowes or beleeves to be revealed by God : and therefore in his judgement none but downe-right Atheists erre fundamentally , cap. 2. p. 135. 136. Atheisme then , as the Jesuites and Arminians conceive , is the formality of an Heretick , p. 100. for it is down-right Atheisme for any man to deny that to be true , which he acknowledges to be spoken by the God of truth . Qu. But if I doe beleeve the Scripture to be Gods word , is it necessary to beleeve that controversies are to be decided by that Word ? An. No , saith Mr Chillingworth , this is no Fundamentall point ; his words are full . I say that this position ( Scripture alone is the rule whereby they which beleeve it to bee Gods word , are to judge all controversies in faith ) is no Fundamentall point , chap. 2. pag. 115. His intent is by this assertion to make good a dreame of his , that some controversies in faith need not be judged or determined at all . Mr Chillingworth pretends , that he holds the Scripture to be a perfect rule of faith , and yet he saith it is not necessary to judge all controversies ( and those no small ones , because they are controversies ) in faith by that perfect rule . It is a perfect rule , but we need not be ruled by it in all points of faith . Qu. But is there then any other way to decide controversies which hath any colour of probability from the Scripture ? An. Yes : nine or ten severall meanes of agreement offered themselves to Mr Chillingworth upon the sudden , ( and haply more might have beene thought on if he had had time ) and these that are offered , have as much probability from Scripture , as that which Papists obtrude upon us . And truly he was such a ready blasphemer , that he could vent extemporary blasphemies ; yet such as the Licentious men at Oxford approved chap. 3. pag. 130. 131. First he saith , we could , if we would , try it by lots , whose Doctrine is true , and whose false ; for which he cites Prov. 16. 33. It may be , this Sophister did cast lots for his Religion , and it was his hard lot to draw Popery first , then Arminianisme , and then his doctrine run lower and lower , till it came almost to the very dregs of Socinianisme . Secondly , we could referre it to the King , Prov 16. 10. and 21. 1. Mr Chillingworth might make merry with his owne prophane doctrine , but I admire that he should dare to sport himselfe with the Majesty of Scripture , and the Majesty of the King : But truly I am afraid , that some are so indifferent in point of Religion , that they are content not only to referre it to the King , but to the Queene . It were proper for them to vent such Doctrine , who have , as the old Tradition and proverbe hath it , taken an oath to be of the Kings Religion . Thirdly , to an Assembly of Christians assembled in the name of Christ , Math. 18. 20. Let them not then blame the Parliament for consulting an Assembly of learned and pious Christians , and most of them Ministers of the Gospel , assembled in the name of Christ . Fourthly , to any Priest , Malach. 2. 7. This makes well of the Queens side . Fifthly , to any Preacher of the Gospel , Pastour , or Doctour , Math. 28. 20. Sure Mr Chillingworth was more independent then they that are commonly so called . Sixthly , to any Bishop or Prelate ( why not then to the Bishop of Rome ? ) for it is written , Obey your Prelates , Heb. 13. 17. Mr Chillingworth since his pretended conversion was very apt to be seduced by the vulgar ( or Rhemish ) translation , or some version received at Saint Omers ; but this was a voluntary and devised meanes , as he saith in the same page . Seventhly , to any particular Church of Christians , seeing it is a particular Church , which is called the house of God , a pillar and ground of truth , 1 Tim. 3. 15. and seeing of any particular Church it is written , He that heareth not the Church , let him be unto thee an Heathen , Matth. 18. Mr Chillingworth is sometimes Prelaticall , and sometimes Congregationall . Eighthly , we might referre it to any man that prayes for Gods spirit ; for it is written , every one that asketh , receives , ( this is one steppe beyond the Brownists ) Matth. 7. 8. James 1. 5. Lastly , we might referre it to the Jewes , for without all doubt of them it is written , My spirit that is in thee , &c. Isaiah 59. 21. And why not to the Socinians ? they have naturall reason , a very competent Judge in Mr Chillingworths conceit . What wonder is it that so many blasphemies and quibbles for every quibble upon Scripture is a blasphemy ) should be licensed by grave and learned Professours of Divinity ? what if Papists take liberty to blaspheme and put the Scripture upon the rack to force it to confesse what makes for their turn ; must Protestants or such a one who undertakes the common Cause of Protestants ( though he was no Protestant ) bee permitted to blaspheme by the Licence of an University ? Repent deare Doctors , once more repent ; and I will proceed . Qu. But how shall I know the true sense of Scripture , there being such variety of conceits which passe for Interpretations ? Answ . Here help mee Reason again and Implicit Faith . For , the last Resolution of my Faith in his conceit must be into Reason , page 65. 96. and still he labours to prove that Reason is Judge ; and he frequently jeares at Knot for accounting it an absurdity for every man and woman to rely upon their Reason in the interpreting of Scripture p. 98. Reasons drawn out of the circumstances of the Text cannot convince me , unlesse I judge of them by my Reason ; and for every man or woman to rely on that — in the interpreting of Scripture , you say is an horrible absurdity . And p. 99. Reason will shew this to be the meaning : yes , if we may use our Reason , and rely upon it . Protestants use their reason , but Socinians rely upon their reason . And he teaches implicit faith all along his book : Protestants , saith he , do agree with an Implicit faith in that sense of the whole Scripture which God intended , whatsoever it was , p 129. 130 cap. 5. sect. 3. a ready way to tempt men to beleeve very little concerning the sense of Scripture : for , men will be apt to say , that the sense of this and the other place of Scripture is not plainly and fully revealed , and Mr Chillingworth doth not require any thing to be beleeved with an explicit faith which is not plainly and undoubtedly delivered in Scripture . My reason ( saith he ) is convincing and demonstrative , because nothing is necessary to be beleeved , but what is plainly revealed , p. 92. But nothing in his judgement is plainly revealed about any point which is called in question , if there be a seeming conflict of Scripture with Scripture , Reason with Reason , Authority with Authority ; in such a case he cannot well understand how it can be truly sayd , that God hath manifestly revealed the truth on either side , chap. 3. sect. 9. p. 136. 137. Well , but admit that the appearances on my side are answerable , and grant that Scripture , Reason , Authority , are all against me , because on the other side ; yet consider the strange power of Education and Prejudices instilled by it , and what Passions I am subject to , and then my errour is unavoydable , and therfore excusable ; for though the truth is in it selfe revealed plainly enough , yet to such a one as I am , prepossest with contrary opinions , the truth in that point is not plainly revealed , read page 137. Sure the corruption of our Nature is as unavoydable as prejudices and passions , and therefore he must ( according to his principles ) conclude that God who knowes whereof we are made , will not enter into judgement with us for those things which ( all things considered ) were unavoydable ; they are his own words page 137. Nay , besides education , prejudices , and passions , inadvertence may in the fourth place excuse us if we dis-beleeve a plain Revelation . Finally , in the fift place , multitude of buisinesse , distractions , hinderances , will excuse us , and hinder God from imputing our errours to us as sinnes . In his answer to the preface p 19. I am verily perswaded that God will not impute errours to them as sinnes , who use such a measure of industry in finding truth , as humane prudence and ordinary discretion ( their abilities and opportunities , their distractions and hinderances , and all other things considered ) ( he will be sure to give liberty enough ) shall advise them unto in a matter of such consequence . But certainly humane prudence and ordinary discretion will teach men to plead these excuses , which he hath framed for them , when any point of faith shall be pressed upon them ; they will say , our opportunities are few , our distractions and hinderances many , our education meane , our abilities weake , our prejudices strong , our passions violent , our inadvertence pardonable , and therefore we will content our selves with a modest humble implicite faith ; we beleeve the whole Scripture to be true , in that sense which God intended , whatsoever it was , but we have not time to search or ability to judge what it was : if we beleeve nothing explicitely , or to disbeleeve a clear revelation , that revelation , though cleare in it selfe , is not cleare to us , our errour ( the corruption of our nature , our prejudices , contrary opinions , with which we are already prepossest , and all other things considered ) is unavoidable , and therefore God will never impute it to us as a sinne . Whither these Principles tend , let the pretended Parliament at Oxford judge . Qu. But are we not bound to heare what the Church will say to us for our direction in weighty points ? Ans. I must beléeve the Church in every thing she proves , either by Scripture , Reason , or universall Tradition , be it , Fundamentall , or bée it not Fundamentall , pag 149. These disjunctives seem to imply that something fundamentall may be proved by reason , or universall Tradition , which cannot be proved by Scripture . The Licencers may do well to declare what that Fundamentall point is , or how many there are , if there be more then one : I may go to Heathens , I need not go to the Church for any thing which Reason teaches , the Philosophers can sufficiently instruct me ; and if what the Church teaches be finally resolved into my owne reason , as he affirmes p. 96. then I do not beléeve either God or the Church , but my own reason : By you ( saith Master Chillingworth to Knot ) as well as by Protestants , all is finally resolved into your owne reason , Sect. 115. cap. 2. Sure I am then that such Protestants and Jesuites are in their high-way to pure Socinianisme , and therefore it is no marvell if some Jesuites have been such Anti-Trinitarians as Master Chillingworth pleads in his owne defence . Preface and Answer to the directions to N. N. Sect. 16 , 17 , 18 , &c. the Church hath lost the interpretation of obscure places , pag. 56 and plaine places need no exposition at all . Qu. But what if the Church erre ? Ans. Then a man may learne of that self same Church ( which taught him ) to confute the errours of that Church : that is , I may learne to confute the erroneous conclusions of that Church , by those very rules and principles which that Church teaches , Chap 3. sect. 40. p. 150. First then , a private man is presumed to have more Logicke then that teaching Church . Secondly , the Prelates ( who call themselves the Church ) may give my brethren of the Assembly leave to confute their erroneous conclusions , by some rules and principles which they themselves have delivered . Thirdly , a man may learne of the Church how to teach the Church . Principles which lead to these harsh truths , being licenced at Oxford , are an argument to me that they approved this booke before they read it . Qu. But how shall we doe then to finde out the true Church , and the true Religion ? Ans. For commands to séek the Church I have not yet met with any ; and I beleeve ( saith he to Knot ) you ( if you were to shew them ) would be your self to seek . Cap. 3. Sect. 41. p. 150. And for Religion , how little paines or care we are to take about it , hath been already shewed . Q. But which must a man chuse first , his Religion , or his Church ? Ans. Every man is to iudge for himself with the iudgment of discretion , ( which he calls humane prudence , and ordinary discretion , in the place of his Answer to the preface fore-cited , p. 19. ) and to chase either his religion first , & then his Church , as Master Chillingworth saith ; or as Knot , his Church first , and then his Religion , pag. 57. Every man then is Judge , the Scripture ( for fashions sake ) he calls the rule , but he makes every mans naturall reason the rule , to judge whether such a Text be the Word of God , and then what is the sense of that Text ; and so all is still finally resolved into our owne reason , into humane prudence , and ordinary discretion ; for Tradition is a principle , not in Christianity , but in Reason ; nor proper to Christians , but common to all men , p. 72. cap. 2. sect. 51. Come away then to the Schoole of Socrates , for this is just , sit anima mea cum Philosophis . Read from the 9● to the 100 page . I will advise with God and that Reason he hath given me , page 158. he adored God and Reason . Qu. But is it not possible for men to become faithfull without either Church or Scripture ? Ans. Yes , by the works of God without us , and the Law of God written in us by Nature . Either of these wayes might make some faithfull men without either necessity of Scripture or Church . ch. 2. sect. 124. p. 100 Qu. What is Faith ? Ans. It is the Assent of our Vnderstandings . Qu. Are not the Essentiall Doctrines of Christianity to bee embraced with our will ? An. The assent of our understandings is required to them , but no obedience from our wills , chap. 4. sect. 2. p. 193. Qu. What are these Essentiall doctrines of Christianity ? Ans. I do not know . Qu. Do you not know what ye are to beleeve ? Or , cannot the church tell what these necessary Truths called the Essentiall and Fundamentall parts of Christianity are ? Answ . No , there 's no such Church that Mr. Chillingworth was ever acquainted with . We are not to learn of the Church what is fundamentall . cap. 3. sect. 39 Qu. What doth Mr Chillingworth think Fundamentall ? Ans. All points which are intrinsecall to the Covenant betwéen God and man . page . 193. cap. 4. sect. 3. Qu. What are these points ? Ans. Repentance from dead works , and faith in Christ Iesus the forme of God , ( oh that he would have confessed him to be God ) and Saviour of the world : this is all that is simply necessary , pag. 159. Qu. What is it to beleeve in Christ ? Answ . It is to expect remission of sinnes , and salvation from him upon the performance of the conditions he requires , p. 134. Observe more conditions beside faith required to Iustification 2. No mention made of Christs performance , but ours . 3. No mention of free grace : it runs like a Covenant of works . Qu. What are these conditions ? Answ. One is , that we beléeve what God hath revealed , when it is sufficiently declared to have béene revealed by him . You have had the English of that already , read pag. 134. Qu. Is it simply necessary to salvation to beleeve in Christ ? Ans. It is simply necessary for them to whom faith in Christ is sufficiently propounded , as necessary to salvation , p. 134. He will wrangle with you if you say faith in Christ is sufficiently propounded to Iewes , Turks , Heathens : for observe that he presently addes in the selfe same page , That may be sufficiently declared to one ( all things considered ) which ( all things considered ) to another is not sufficiently declared , and consequently that may be Fundamentall and necessary to one , which to another is not so . In his conceit then it is not necessary for some mens salvation , that they should beleeve in Christ . And it hath beene formerly observed , that some men ( as he conceived ▪ ) might be made faithfull men without necessity of Church or Scripture . Finally , in the 133 page he saith expresly , that Cornelius was but a meete Gentile , one that beleeved not in Christ , and knew not but men might be worshipped ; and yet we are assured , that his prayers and almes , even whilst he was in that estate , were accepted . Ergo in his judgement a meere Heathen and an Idolater may have accesse to God in prayer , and be accepted without the mediation of our only Mediator the Lord Iesus , God blessed for ever . But the truth is , Cornelius was a Proselyte , instructed in the Iewish Religion , who beleeved in the Messiah , and that faith was sufficient for his acceptance , before the Gospel of Christ was preached unto him . The prayers and almes of idolatrous Heathens ( who know not but they may worship men ) cannot be accepted without faith in Christ : nor do their prayers and almes please God so well , as that for them or by them they should be promoted to a higher degree of knowledge , the knowledge of Christ , that so they may be saved by Christ : for what is this , but to deserve a Saviour , which is meritum de congruo at least ? nay , let the Licensers consider , whether to deserve Christ , be not more then to deserve Heaven . Moreover , he is much mistaken , when he saith , that they who never heard of Christ , may seek God as to please him , and that they shall be rewarded for their seeking of him with the knowledge of the Gospell ▪ or saith in Christ ; for he who doth not seek God in and by Christ our only Mediatour , doth not come to God , but runs quite beside him : to such a carnall seeking ▪ God never yet promised such a spirituall reward . Consider that of the Apostle Rom. 9. 30 , 31 , 32 , 33. and the next chapter , the second and third verses . That text Hebr. 11. 6. should be compared with , and expounded by Iohn 14. 6. and then it will be evident that no man can seek so as to finde him , or come to him after an acceptable manner , unlesse he seek God in , and come to him by Iesus Christ , who is the way , the truth , and the life , the true way to eternall life . I hasten to the next question . Qu. What other Condition is there of the Covenant besides beleeving ? Answ. Repentance of sinne , and obedience to Christ ; for God is a punisher of them that obstinately offend him ; therefore repentance of sinne is necessary , and Iesus Christ is the sonne of God and Saviour of the world , by obedience to whom men must look to be saved , p. 101. Mark , he doth not say , by whose obedience men must be justified , and yet this is the fairest confession that I can meet with : I read often of our obedience to Christ , but I never read any thing yet in Mr Chillingworths book , of Christs obedience imputed to us ; now it is the imputation of Christs obedience to us , and Gods free pardon of our disobedience , which make the covenant appeare to be a covenant of grace . Qu. What is repentance ? Answ . An universall sorrow for all those sinnes which we know we have committed , and which we feare we may have committed . Answer to the Preface p. 20. If we have beene betrayed into , or kept in errour by any sin of our will , if that errour be discovered , there must be a particular and explicite repentance of that errour ; if it be not discovered , then a generall and implicite repentance for all sinnes knowne and unknown doth suffice , Ib. p. 21. Observe that he saith nothing of the hatred of sinne , or the forsaking of sinne , in which the life and power of repentance doth consist . A man may live and die in his sinnes and be saved by an universall sorrow . Men are damned , saith he , who die in wilfull errours without repentance ; but what if they die in thir errours with repentance ? Answer to the Preface p. 20. That is a contradiction , saith the Iesuit , and he saith true ; but it appeares by that speech , that Master Chillingworth conceived that an universall sorrow for sinne without any hatred of , or turning from sinne , was saving repentance . Qu. What other condition is required in the Covenant between God and man in Christ ? Answ . Sincere obedience . Answer to the Preface , p. 18. This indeed is the prime condition he meanes , when he saith , p. 134. That to beleeve in Christ , is to expect remission of sinnes from Christ upon the conditions he requires . This is pure Socinianisme , to beleeve that we shall be pardoned upon our obedience , or as the Socinians expresse it , and justified ( according to the Covenant ) by our owne obedience ; not as we say , by the obedience of Christ , and freely pardoned for the al sufficient satisfaction of Christ , made in our stead , and put upon our account . Besides , if a man neglect never so many duties , live in never-so many errors , and commit never so many grosse sinnes , he conceives that an Implicite Faith and a generall Repentance of all sinnes knowne and unknowne , are sufficient Antidotes , and his Obedience shall passe for sincere Obedience ; as you may clearly see in those places which have beene already alleadged . If a man be not convinced that Christ is God , ( by his principles ) an Implicit Faith and generall Repentance will serve the turne , though that truth hath beene sufficiently propounded to him , and it is meerly his own fault that he is not convinced , for in his conceit as long as this man remains ( as he saith ) unconvinced ( but as we say , obstinate ) so long he doth not derogate any thing from Gods veracity or truth . His words are these . But if the proposall be only so sufficient , not , that the party ( to whom it is made ) is convinced , but only that he should , & but for his own fault would have beene convinced of the divine verity of the doctrine proposed . The crime then is not so great , for the beliefe of Gods veracity may well consist with such an errour . Yet a fault I confesse it is , and without Repentance , damnable , if all circumstances considered ( that is , mens passions , hindrances , &c. considered as above said ) the proposall be sufficient , p. 18. of his answer to the Preface . Now what he meanes by repentance hath beene shewen , a generall sorrow for all sinnes knowne and unknowne ; such a repentance as will consist with a mans obstinate deniall of a truth , for he may die in this errour with Master Chillingworths repentance , and neither the errour nor the obstinancie shall be imputed to him , because he is sorry for he knowes not what , and remained unconvinced of his errour , though it was meerly his owne fault that he was not convinced . This is a ready way to save Iewes , Turkes , Socinians , Papists Infidels , and all ; for he doth meerly retaine the names of faith , repentance , sincere obedience , without the substance , life , and power of them . The Faith he talkes of , leaves the will at liberty : he starts at the Apostles phrase , the obedience of faith . You ( saith he to Knot ) say there is some merit in faith , we some obedience in it , which can hardly have place where there is no possibility of disobedience , as there is not , where the understanding doth all , and the will nothing , p. 329. Sure I am , the Devill hath such a saith , an assent without obedience ; his faith is no faith , because grounded meerly upon probabilities ; he only saith that the precepts of Christianity are most likely to come from God , p. 36. chap. 1. but the Spirit of God being implored by devout and humble prayer , and sincere obedience , may and will by degrees advance his servants to an higher certainty , p. 36. 37. But this certainty is a reward given to beleevers ; so then men are beleevers before the Spirit gives them any certainty that the Christian religion did proceed from the fountaine of goodnesse : Now he who only beleeves the Christian religion of all other religions to be most likely to be true , is not very likely to implore the Spirit very earnestly either by prayer or obedience ; for who will obey the precepts of Christianity till he be assured that they and the promises are divine ? But saith Master Chillingworth , men may talke their pleasure of an absolute and most infallible certainty , but did they generally beleeve that obedience to Christ were the only way ( marke that , the onely way ) to present , and eternall felicity , but as firmly and undoubtedly as that there is such a City as Constantinople , nay but as much as Caesars Commentaries , or the History of Salust ; I beleeve the lives of most men , both Papists and Protestants would be better then they are , chap. 6. pag. 327. Sure Christs obedience for us is the way to happinesse , therefore our obedience is not the only way . 2. It is certaine that all true Protestants do beleeve the Gospel more firmly then ( Caesars Commentaries or Salust ) prophane Histories . 3. Such a Faith as this will not implore the Spirit by devout and humble prayer , or by sincere obedience . 4. I appeale to all indifferent men what kind of obedience is like to spring from an implicite faith in unsanctified reason ; a faith that is a bare assent without obedience , the faith of Devils , not the faith of Christians . 5. The repentance of obstinate men , ( I meane in sensu composito , as Master Chillingworth means ) a generall sorrow which he cals repentance ( that is , humiliation without reformation ) repentance of sinnes which I love and live in and damnable errours which I die in , is not that repentance from dead works which Christ requires ; sure Heresie in the language of the Apostle is a work of the flesh , and therefore as dead a work as any other ; we may then safely conclude ( that an implicite faith in unsanctified reason or fallible tradition , and a generall sorrow for I know not what sinnes and errors ( though grosse enough for to be known ) such sinnes and errours as the party doth love , live , and die in , and never so much as confesse to be sinnes or errours , because he is so obstinate that he will not be convinced of them ) I say , safely conclude , that this faith and this sorrow are both unchristian , if not Antichristian . He that hath an implicite faith in his owne unsanctified reason makes himselfe a Pope . Sanctified reason sees but in part , and therefore unsanctified reason is spiritually blind , it cannot see any thing which is spiritually discerned . Besides , I feare that he conceived there was some merit of congruity in the lame obedience of this blind beleever , because he saith the sincere obedience of such a beleever doth implore the Spirit . Now whether a man that relies upon his owne reason , and his owne obedience , in stead of relying upon Gods authority and Christs obedience , can be saved by the Covenant of Grace , let all true Christians judge . Qu. What other condition is required of us ? Answ. A true , sincere and cordiall love of God . Answer to the Preface , p. 20. Qu. How may a man be raised to this love ? Answ. By the consideration of Gods most infinite goodnesse to us , and our own almost infinite wickednesse against him , Gods Spirit cooperating with us , may raise us to a true , sincere and a cordiall love of God . in the same page . Qu. Wherein doth this infinite goodnesse of God manifest it selfe ? Answ. 1. In creating us of nothing . 2. In creating us after his own image . 3. In creating all things for our use and benefit . 4. In streaming downe his favours on us every moment of our lives . 5. In designing us , if we serve him , to infinite and eternall happinesse . 6. In redéeming us with the pretious bloud of his beloved Sonne . 7. By his patience towards us in expecting our conversion . 8. In wooing , alluring , leading , and by all meanes ( which his wisdome can suggest unto him , and mans nature is capable of ) drawing them to repentance and salvation . I have picked out the marrow of his notions the best Divinity his works afford , but observe . 1. We are ( saith he ) designed to eternall happinesse if we serve God ; which is perfect Popery , shall I say , or Socinianisme ? here is a conditionall decree , and the condition is works . 2. God expects our conversion , I thought he had effected our conversion ; if God stay till we will turne off our selves or cooperate with his Spirit in the first act of our conversion , we shall never be converted . Sure I am , this Implicite faith grounded on unsanctified reason , and fallible tradition , will rather resist , then cooperate with ▪ the holy Spirit . The Scripture tels us that we do never love God in good earnest till we doe beleeve Gods love to us : compare the 16. and 19. verses of the 1 Iohn 4. And faith is not wrought in us by our cooperation with the Spirit but by the Almighty power of God who quickens us whom he finds dead in trespasses and sinnes unto a lively faith ; as is evident in the two first chapters of the Epistle to the Ephesians . Qu Is it possible for a man that lives and dies a Papist to be saved ? Ans. Yes very possible in the iudgement of Master Chillingworth . 1 , Because the Papists do not erre in Fundamentals chap. 3. Sect. 56. pag. 164. For the only and main reason ( saith he ) why we beleeve you not to erre in Fundamentals is your holding the Doctrine of Faith in Christ and Repentance . The worst sort of Papists who have means to find the Truth , but will not use them , may be saved if they die with a generall repentance for all their sinnes knowne and unknowne , because the Truths which they hold of Faith in Christ , and repentance are as it were an Antidote against their errours , and their negligence in seeking the truth . Especially , seeing by confession of both sides we agree in much more then is simply and indispensably necessary to salvation , Chap. 3. Sect. 12. pag. 133. And truly I doe beleeve if the worst of Papists , and the worst of Protestants did agree in fewer things then they doe , there would be more hope of the salvation of Papists . Qu. What is the best way to bring Papists and Protestants into one communion ? Ans. The framing and proposing of a Liturgy which both sides hold lawfull . p. 132. This was perchance the great stratagem aimed at in the framing of that Liturgy which was sent into Scotland ; and this is a point which deserves the consideration of the pretended Parliament or Assembly at Oxford . Qu. Is the Spirit absolutely promised to the succession of Bishops ? Answ . No : for many of them have beene notoriously and confessedly wicked men , men of the world : whereas this Spirit is the Spirit of truth , whom the world cannot receive , because he seeth him not , neither knowes him , p. 146 , 147. Whether this be not as true of some Popish Prelats in England , as of the Bishops of Rome , let the learned determine . Qu. What if a Church maintaine an errour contrary to Gods Revelation knowne by that Church to be a divine Revelation ? Ans. The Church that doth so is no longer a Church . p. 137. Qu. Doth not Master Chillingworth sometimes contradict himselfe , and call the Roman Church the Catholique Church . Answ. He seemes to do so , p. 132. His words are these ▪ We beléeve the Catholique Church cannot perish , yet that she may , and did erre in points not Fundamentall ; and that Protestan● were obliged to forsake these errors of her Church , as they did , though not the Church for the errours , for that they did not , but continued still members of the Church . Observe that the question is about forsaking the Church of Rome , and he talkes of the Catholique Church . 1. The Catholique Church did not erre with the Roman ; the Greek Church did forsake the errours of the Roman . 2. Those Protestants who did protest against the Church of Rome , were a considerable part of the Catholique Church . 3. Those Protestants did not continue members of the Roman Church but did renounce her communion , because of her errours . 4. His distinction which followes betweene the Catholique and Roman Church makes his former observations non-sence at least . 5. He saith they separated from the Roman Church only in things which they conceived superstitious or impious — and ( he saith ) they were obliged to doe this under paine of damnation . Not ( saith he ) as if it were damnable to hold an errour not damnable , p. 132. Did those Protestants rightly conceive the practises of Rome to be superstitious and impious , or did they not ? if they did conceive aright , then superstion and impiety are in Master Chillingworths judgement not damnable ; if they did conceive amisse , why doth Master Chillingworth justifie our separation from the Church of Rome ? Sure Master Chillingworth was no fit man to maintaine the common cause of Protestants against Papists . Qu. May not a man bee damned by maintaining errours which are not in themselves damnable ? Ans. Yes , because it is damnable outwardly to professe and maintaine , and ioyne with others in the practise of that which inwardly we do not hold : for this is ( as he confesses ) damnable dissimulation and hypocrisie , p. 132. Men may do well to take notice , that Mr Chillingworth doth account something damnable ; and I note this the rather at this time , because men are so apt to professe one thing in one place , and another thing in another in these dayes of liberty , and to joyne with others in the practise of that which they inwardly dislike . Yet Mr Chillingworth saith , that if in him alone there should have met a confluence of all the errours which all the Protestants in the world have fell into out of humane frailty , he would not be so much afraid of them all , as to ask pardon for them , because to ask pardon for them , were to imply , that God is angry for them , Answ . to the Preface p. 19. Qu. May a man goe constantly to Masse , and be saved ? Ans. Yes , if he bée devout at it ( for that he meanes by a godly Lay-man ) if he bée strongly perswaded that there is no impiety or superstition in the use of the Latine service , Answ . to the Preface p. 9. sect. 7. It seems there is no fault in the Masse , but that it is in Latine . Qu. What profit might be gained by the Masse-book if it were in English ? Ans. Much devotion , instruction , edification , salvation , in the place forecited . Was not this a stout Champion , chosen by Canterbury on purpose , not to confute , but harden Papists , and seduce Protestants . Qu. What are the causes of errour ? Ans. Negligence in séeking truth , unwillingnesse to find it , pride , obstinacy , a politique desire that that Religion should be true , which sutes best with my ends , feare of mens ill opinion , or any other worldly feare or worldly hope , these seven betray men to , and kéepe men in damnable errours , p. 158. It is one of the most honest passages in his book . Brethren let us beware of these motives . Qu. What kinde of man was Knot ? Ans. One that went about to delude his King , and Countrey with strange captions ; Sure Mr Chillingworth and hee were both of a make , read 117. Qu. How may a King usurp an Absolute Lordship and Tyranny over any people ? Ans He néed not put himself to the trouble and difficulty of abrogating Lawes , made to maintaine common liberty ; for he may frustrate their intent , and compasse his own design as well , if he can get the power and authority to interpret them as he pleases , and to adde to them what he pleases , and to have his interpretations and additions stand for lawes ; if he can rule his people by his Laws , and his Laws by his Lawyers , p. 51. cap. 2. I think our Iudges followed his directions in the point of Ship-money . Qu. What weapons of warfare may be justly called carnall ? Ans. Massacres , Treasons , Persecutions , and in a word all meanes either violent or fraudulent . p. 52. God grant that the Irish forces which land daily , doe not make us as well acquainted with this warfare in England , as they are in Ireland . Qu. What obedience doe we owe to the lawes and judgements of Courts ? Answ. Onely externall obedience , not internall approbation . p. 97. Qu. If I disapprove the judgement of any Court , am I bound to conceale my owne judgement ? Ans. No , I may lawfully professe my iudgement , and represent my reasons to the King or Common-wealth in a Parliament , as Sir Thomas Moore did without committing any fault , p. 97 Why then are men so much blam'd for professing their judgement against some things which seeme to be established by Law , and representing their reasons to the Parliament ? and why did not Master Chillingworth yeeld externall obedience to the Common-wealth of England in this Parliament ? for who can deny that the Common-wealth of England is assembled in this Parliament ? Qu. May not a Court which pretends not to be infallible , be certain enough that they judge aright ? Answ. Yes , our Iudges are not infallible in their iudgements , yet are they certaine enough that they iudge aright , and that they procéed according to the evidence that is given , when they condemne a thiefe or a murtherer to the Gallowes . p. 140. Now Reader judge Master Chillingworths workes , my proceedings , and this Treatise according to the evidence given : and thinke an implicite faith in thine owne reason almost as bad as implicite faith in the Church or Pope of Rome . I conclude all as Doctor Fern concludes his last booke . The God of Power and Wisdome cast out all Counsels , and defeat all Designes that are against the restoring of our Peace , and the continuance of the true Reformed Religion Amen . Soli Deo gloria . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A79473e-200 Dr. Bayly , Dr. Prideaux , Dr. Fell . {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . Ezek. 8. 16. Ezek. 8. 17. 18. Isa. 50. ult. Isa. 8. 9 , 10. Vbi jus humanum , naturale vel divinum , arma e●pere jubet , ibi juris autoritas intervenit , etiamsi expressa voluntas principis non accedat . Biel. 4. Sent. q. 4. Dr Ferne his 2. book p. 33. Dr Fern ib. p. 27 Dr Ferns 2. book p. 6. Book 2 p. 34. Book 2. p 28. Book 2. pag. 6. 2 Book p. 28. Ib. ubi supra . 2 Book p. 16. Iudg. 9. 24. * Ac ne maledicis verborum in eos uti conviciis arguamur causam perditionis publicae ne cuiquam ignota sit non tacemus , Hilar. contra Arian p. 214 Iudg. 9. 19 , 20 , 23 and 57 verses . Notes for div A79473e-2200 a Nec Plancus illepide , cum diceretur Asinius Pollio orationes in eum parare quae p●st mortem Planci ederentur ne resp●ndere posset , cum mortuis non nisi larvas luctari ; quo apud erud tos nihil impudentius judicatur . Plin. Praefat. Hist. Natural . * Scilicet esse oportet . Marii reliquiat dissipari jussit , acerbiore odio , quàm si tam sapiens suisset quàm vehemens fuit . Cicero de L●g . Consulas Histor. de vita & obitu Buceri . Tertul. in Apolog. Synod . Eliber . Can. 34. 37. Vigilantius cum Synodo praedict. illam gentilium consuetudinem damnavit : Prope ( inqu●t Vigilantius ) ritum gentil●um videmus sub praetextu religion●s introductum in Ecclesias Dei , Sole ad●us fulgente moles cereo●um accendi : Hieron. ad Vigilant . cap. 2. Virgil . En●id . Videsis Greg. Naz. Orat. in laudem Gorgor . Comment. in Iob vulgo ascripta Origeni lib. 3. Ambros. de Valent . & Gratiano disser●n . Beati ambo si quid meae orationes valebunt : nulla dies vos silenti● praeteribit nulla inhonoratos vos mea transibit oratio , nulla nox non donatos aliquâ precum mearum contextione transcurret , &c. Ambros. de obitu Valentiniani Imperatoris . Gen. 50. 7 , 9 , and 14 verses . Dr Vsher his answer to the les●ites Challenge , upon the Argument of prayer for the dead . {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . Chrysost. Hom. 4. in epist. ad Heb. 
A41441	----	The old religion demonstrated in its principles, and described in the life and practice thereof Goodman, John, 1625 or 6-1690. 1684 Approx. 338 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 198 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A41441 Wing G1111 ESTC R2856 12412784 ocm 12412784 61579 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A41441) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 61579) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 666:13) The old religion demonstrated in its principles, and described in the life and practice thereof Goodman, John, 1625 or 6-1690. [10], 384 p. Printed by J.M. for R. Royston ..., London : 1684. Reproduction of original in Cambridge University Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Christian life. Christian ethics. Protestantism. Religion -- Early works to 1800. Faith -- Early works to 1800. 2007-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-11 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-01 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2008-01 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Old Religion Demonstrated in its PRINCIPLES , And described in the LIFE and PRACTICE thereof . Jerem. vi . 16. Thus saith the Lord , stand ye in the ways and see , and ask for the Old Paths , where is the Good Way , and walk therein , and ye shall find Rest for your Souls . LONDON , Printed by J. M. for R. Royston , Book-Seller to His most Sacred Majesty , at the Angel in Amen-Corner , MDCLXXXIV . THE EPISTLE TO THE Pious Reader . Good Reader , THou art here presented with a new Book concerning the Old Religion . As therefore thou art not to expect thy curiosity should here be gratified with new Notions , ( for I am not describing a new way to Heaven , but directing thee in the good old way which the holy Scriptures have marked out , and which wise and good men have all along walked in ) ; so neither art thou to think thy self disappointed , if thou meetest not with a Discourse modishly drest up , with all the fashionable Ornaments of Wit and Eloquence . For give me leave to tell thee , though that would have been acceptable to the humour of the Age , and perhaps might without any great difficulty have been complied with ; yet it would neither have suited so well with the nature of the subject I am upon , nor especially have fitted the persons for whose sake this little Book was written . That therefore which I here pretend , and which I hope thou wilt not fail of in the Papers before thee , is , First , A brief but plain and substantial proof of the grounds and fundamental Principles of Religion in general . Secondly , A discovery and confutation of several vulgar Opinions , which deform the beauty , and defeat the efficacy of Christian Religion in particular . And lastly , A clear description , a rational deduction , and a serious inculcation of the most important duties of that Religion , wherein either the glory of God , our own comfort , or the peace and happiness of Mankind are principally concerned . As for the management of these Points , though I have not given countenance to this Discourse by citation of Authors , nor either adorned the Text with fine Sayings , nor the Margin with great Names ; yet I hope thou wilt find a vein of sound Reason in it , and the spirit of the Gospel running quite through it . I assure thee I have dealt sincerely and conscientiously herein , I have impartially consulted the holy Scriptures , I have made use of the best understanding God hath given me , and I here set before thee ( though not the product , yet ) the result of many years observation , consideration , and experience . And so I leave it to Gods blessing , and thy candid acceptance . Farewel . THE CONTENTS . PART I. An Introduction to an holy and comfortable Life . CHAP. I. THE wisdom of being religious . Page 1 CHAP. II. The reasonableness of Religion in general . p. 9 CHAP. III. Of the rewards of Religion in another World. p. 21 CHAP. IV. Of the great influence and mighty efficacy of believing Heaven and Hell , or rewards and punishments in another World. p. 38 CHAP. V. Of the choice of a Religion , or what particular Religion a man should apply himself to . p. 55 CHAP. VI. More particular Directions for the setling a mans mind in Religion . p. 71 CHAP. VII . Cautions against some Opinions which are hindrances both of an holy and of a comfortable life . p. 85 CHAP. VIII . Directions for the effectual prosecution of Religion . p. 139 PART II. The practice of holy and comfortable Living . CHAP. I. OF Secret Devotion and particularly of secret Prayer . p. 181 CHAP. II. Of several other instances of secret Devotion . p. 209 CHAP. III. Of private Devotion , or Family-Piety in general . p. 235 CHAP. IV. Of Family Duties in special . p. 254 CHAP. V. Of Family-Discipline , or by what means a Family may be brought to the observance of Religion . p. 281 CHAP. VI. Of publick Piety and particularly in relation to the Church and publick Assembly of Christians . p. 301 CHAP. VII . Of Civil Piety , or how a man may and ought to promote Gods honour , and the publick good of the Parish , considered only as a Civil Society or Neighbourhood . p. 346 AN Introduction TO AN HOLY AND A Comfortable LIFE . CHAP. I. The Wisdom of being Religious . THE Holy Scripture ( that Book of Books , and Treasury of Divine Wisdom ) expresses it self thus concerning Religion , Psal . III. V. 10. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom , and a good understanding have all they that keep his commandments . Eccles . 12. 13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter , fear God and keep his commandments , for this is the whole ( duty or business ) of man. S t Luke 13. 23. Strive to enter in at the strait gate , for many shall seek to enter in , and shall not be able . Phil. 2. 12. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling , &c. 2 Pet. 1. 10. Give diligence to make your calling and election sure . S t Mat. 6. 33. Seek ye first the kingdom of God , and his righteousness , and all these things shall be added to you . S t John 6. 27. Labour not for the meat that perisheth , but for that meat which endureth to eternal life . S t Mat. 16. 26. What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world , and lose his own soul . By all which , and abundance of other such like passages , it appears , that Religion is as much our interest as our duty ; and that Piety and Care of another World , are not only the Commands of God , and his impositions upon us , but the upshot and result of the best and truest Wisdom . For Wisdom doth not consist in sceptical jealousies and suspicions , but in a determinate knowledge and resolution what is fit to be done ; not in a superficial smattering of many things , but in a clear and distinct apprehension of the just nature , value , and moment of them ; not in an endless hunting after curiosity , but to know where to stick and fasten ; not in pilling a flint , or laborious beating out of unprofitable difficulties , but in applying a mans self to such things as are savoury and useful ; not in tricks of wit , sophistry , or eloquence ; and least of all in a jest or a repartee ; but to discover what is fit to propound to a mans self as his end and design , and by what means to attain it ; to have great things in a mans thoughts , and to despise and scorn little and petty designs : in a word , to see a great way before him , and to be well provided for the future . Now all this is verified in Religion more than in any other thing in the whole World ; for here a mans mind is taken up with the greatest thoughts and sublimest objects , God and Eternity ; he takes care to secure the main stake , his own Soul ; he imploys himself about things of the greatest moment and consequence ; by inquiring about another World , he gives proof of the greatest foresight ; in considering of it , he gives evidence of a sagacious temper ; in resolving upon it , he shews judgment ; in pursuing it by the means appointed , he demonstrates the command he hath over himself , and that he is led by his reason , not ridden by his passions ; and by persevering in this course , he arrives at true tranquillity of mind , the Crown and Glory of Wisdom . Accordingly we find by experience , that commonly where-ever there is a grave , thoughtful , sedate , Person , such an one as is either fit to give or to take advice , he is seldom destitute of a sense of Religion : But on the contrary , where-ever you see an incogitant shatter-brain'd fellow , that knows not himself enough to make him modest and civil , that hath not so much reason as to weigh an argument , nor so much Arithmetick as to value any thing but what is present ; that is so much under the power of his Senses , as scarcely to know whether he hath such a thing as a Spirit within him , or hath so much Drink about him , that his head works nothing but yest and froth ; here is a man cut out to be an Advocate for Scepticism or Atheism ; this is the Person that will be captious against Religion , and malapert towards God Almighty . But let such men enjoy their humour as long as they can , they will be sure sadly to repent , or rue it at last : and in the mean time , they only betray their own shame and folly , for their tongue will prove no slander to Religion ; the mighty concern of which , is not only declared by God Almighty , confirmed by our own reason , and justified by our experience , but also affectionately recommended to us by all wise and good men ; by those whose sagacity and discretion is such , that we have no reason to suspect they are deceived or imposed upon themselves ; and whose sincerity and integrity is such , that we can as little think they should have any design to impose upon us . And therefore those Persons , who being either prevailed upon by the evil examples of the World , or discountenanced by the lewd sayings of such as we mentioned even now , and ( declining the ways of Piety and Devotion ) give themselves up to a loose and irreligious life , are in the first place errant Cowards towards men , whilest they are insolent towards God : And in the next place , they are false to the common reason of mankind , which obliges men to provide for the future . In the third place , they are false to their own interest of self-preservation . And lastly , they are false and ingrateful to their best friends , whose counsels they forsake , and abandon themselves to the conduct of the most silly and profligate Wretches . But if any shall think to excuse themselves from this censure , by suggesting , that they look upon Devotion , as either the effect of a weak judgment , or of a melancholy and timorous constitution . I add , that this makes the matter so much worse , as that it involves them , not only in the guilt of all the former , but also of extream rudeness and incivility towards the best of men . To make all this more clear and convincing , and to lay the surer foundation of all that is to be said hereafter , we will now in the next place shew the grounds upon which Religion stands . CHAP. II. The Reasonableness of Religion in general . THAT which is meant by Religion ( in the general notion of it ) is nothing else but a due regard towards the Divine Majesty , a diligent care of approving our selves to the supreme Being , the Creator and Governour of the World : Or , which comes to the same effect , the prudent ordering a mans conversation in this World , so that he may erect his mind with comfortable expectations of the favour of God and happiness in another World. Thus much we are taught by the Author to the Hebews , Chap. 11. 6. He that cometh to God , must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him ; in which few words , we may observe in the first place the matter or duty of Religion , exprest by diligent seeking of God ; and secondly , the two Pillars , or ( as I may say ) Poles of it , namely , 1. the persuasion of the Being of God , 2. the expectation of rewards from him ; the former of which most properly contains the first rise and reason of Religion , and the latter the motives and inducements to pursue it . If these two Pillars be united , they make so firm an arch , that no objection can shake the Building ; but if they be taken and considered singly , they are each of them of mighty strength for the upholding of Religion . § . 2. As for the former , if ( I say ) we consider the nature of God only , that alone is able to possess us with an apprehension of the fitness and reasonableness of diligently seeking him . It is true we cannot see the Divine Majesty as we may behold corporeal objects , because he is of a spiritual nature , and for the same reason we cannot see our own Souls . And it is true also , that we cannot fully comprehend him in our minds neither , because of his infinite perfections ; yet we cannot so much as doubt whether there be any such Being or no , if we do but bethink our selves in this one thing , namely , how we our selves came to be ? For , though it may be at the first blush of this question , we shall think it sufficient to say , we had our beginning from our immediate Parents , and they in like manner successively from their Progenitors ; yet when we proceed on in our inquiry so far as to consider and ask our selves , what it was which brought the whole race of mankind into Being ? we shall then find our selves forced to acknowledge the hand of God in it . Forasmuch as in the first place , it is certain that nothing could take a beginning without a cause , and in the next place , it is as certain that this thing called mankind , could not be the cause of it self , or produce it self ; and then to impute it to chance , or to imagine that such an excellent Being as mankind is , wherein there is so much variety of Parts , and yet order and decency , and in short , so many instances of admirable art and wisdom in the very composure of his Body ( setting aside his mind : ) that this , I say , should be the product of blind chance , is more absurd than either of the former ; therefore there must be a God , for none but a fool indeed can say , There is no God. Now if we acknowledge a God , who gave beginning to our selves , and to all other things , we must also own him to be eternal , as being before all things , and the cause of them ; and as such , he must needs , not only have in himself eminently all those perfections , which are to be found in any part of his workmanship , but be also unlimited in his own perfections . And this will inavoidably lead us to the acknowledgment of all , or most of those Attributes , which either the Holy Scripture ascribes to him , or which Religion is concerned in , namely , that he is a free Agent , that he is Omnipotent , that he is infinitely wise , that he is just , and that he is good , as will easily appear in particular . First , He must needs be a free Agent , that is , such an one as acts not necessarily , or that is bound down by any fatal necessity , or determined to this or that act , or object , or measure of acting by any thing without him , but wholly follows his own voluntary motion and choice , the counsel of his own will ; the reason is plain , because he made things when nothing was before , and so there could be nothing to bound , limit , or determine him . Secondly , He must needs be Powerful or Omnipotent , for the same reason , namely , because he gave being and beginning to things that were not at all ; for we cannot conceive a greater instance of Power , than to bring something out of nothing . Thirdly , He must be wise , both because we see he hath contriv'd things according to the rules of exactest wisdom , insomuch , that the more we understand the Divine workmanship , the more we admire it ; and also , because he hath imprinted some image of of his wisdom upon our selves . Fourthly , We must acknowledge him just , as well because ( by reason of his infinite power and wisdom ) he can have no litle ends to biass him , as because he hath also made an impression of justice upon our minds . Lastly , He must needs be good , not only because he is wise ( as aforesaid ) but because he is infinitely happy and perfect , and so can fear nothing , can envy nothing , can need nothing from any other Being , but contrariwise , being infinitely full , must have a pleasure to diffuse and communicate himself to them . § . 3. All these Doctrines concerning the Deity , flow from that one perswasion , that there is a God ; and the influence of every of these upon Religion , is as great and apparent as the consequence of them from the acknowledgment of such a Being , was natural and necessary : so that a man may with as much reason deny any of the aforesaid Attributes to belong to the Divine Majesty , as ( granting them to be in him , or belong to him ) avoid the force of them upon his conscience , to incline him to regard this great God , i. e. to be Religious , which we will again shew particularly . First , If the Divine Majesty be a free Agent , then it is certain all the good and all the evil which he doth to us , he doth by choice ; and then we ought to be sensible of our obligations to him for the one , and humble our selves to him under the other . And then also , because we are convinced , that he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy , we know there is no trifling and dallying with such a Deity , but we ought to use all possible means of propitiating him towards our selves . Secondly , For the Divine Omnipotency , the natural consequence of that is , that we fear him , and trust in him ; for who is there that thinks of a God that made him out of nothing , and is therefore able to destroy him , and resolve him into nothing again when he pleases , who doth not think it the highest wisdom in the World that he shouldbe subject to him , pay him all possible homage , tremble before him , and also think fit to trust and rely upon his Almighty Power in all exigencies and difficulties ? Thirdly , The Divine Wisdom makes our obligations to Religion yet more strict and close ; for it convinces our reason that we ought to submit to his Providences whatsoever they are , and not to dispute his commands , nor doubt his promises , but hold him in the highest veneration and admiration that is possible for us to express ; to be reverent towards him upon all occasions , to submit our wills to his ; and especially in consideration that he must needs see and take notice of all our carriage and behaviour , to live with as much caution in the greatest retirement and privacy , as when we are sensible that we are upon the greatest Theatre . Fourthly , The apprehension of the Divine Justice and Integrity , not only assures us that he hates all sin , but that he hath no respect of Persons , but will judge the World in righteousness , and then who will grumble at any of his Providences , break any of his Laws , or do any unjust and base action , and that because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God , who always can , and in due time will right himself ? Lastly , The consideration of Gods goodness , and that he is a Gracious and Benigne Majesty , cannot choose but mightily inflame our hearts with love to him , and provoke us to serve him with all chearfulness ; for who that believes him delighted to communicate himself to the relief of all his Creatures , doth not think of him with pleasure , and comfort himself in him ; or who can find in his heart to offend and abuse him , and not rather repent of all his former follies and ingratitudes , and resolve to sin no more ? For as the Apostle hath said , the goodness of God leadeth to repentance . So that in this one Principle ( the belief that there is a God ) we have a large foundation for Religion in general , which I have the rather insisted upon thus particularly , for the sake of those who are called , or call themselves Theists ( because they pretend to be convinced of no more of the Articles of Religion , but only of this great point , the Being of a Deity : ) these men , I say , if upon that single Principle they do not live religiously , are either men of no Conscience , and then it will be all one what their Principles are ; or are men of no Principles at all , i. e. are Atheists rather than Theists , forasmuch as by what hath been said , it is apparent how pregnant that one Principle is of Virtue and Piety , if it be sincerely believed , and rightly improved . But so much for that . CHAP. III. Of the rewards of Religion in another World. LET us now consider the other Principle of Religion , viz. that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him . This ( as I intimated before ) is properly the motive or inducement to the observance of the Divine Majesty ; for it hath pleased him to conjoin our interest with his own , and he hath made the greatest part of our duty towards him to consist in such things as conduce to our own good , as well as to his glory ; and to that purpose hath laid the foundation of Religion , by planting in us that principle of self-love , and self-preservation , which is inseparable from our natures , and by which he works upon us . Concerning this point therefore of the rewards of Religion , we will first consider the evidence of it , and when that is clear , we shall easily in the second place be convinced of the efficacy of it , to the purposes of making men devout . The former of the two we will make way to the discovery of by this train of discourse . 1. We have shewed already that there is both justice and goodness in the Divine Nature , either of which severally , but most certainly both together in conjunction , afford ground of expectation , that he will make a difference betwixt those that serve him , and those that serve him not . For seeing his power and greatness render him a fit object of Worship , and our dependance upon him as his Creatures , makes homage due from us to him : and seeing by his infinite Wisdom , he must needs be sensible how men carry themselves towards him ; it cannot consist with his Justice to let those escape unpunished , who pay no observance to him ; nor stand with his goodness to suffer those to be unrewarded , that serve and honour him . Indeed it must be acknowledged , that this consideration of those Attributes will not amount to a proof of rewards in another World , because of that other Attribute of his , viz. the Divine Liberty or Freedom , upon account of which , he cannot be bound to exercise whatsoever act or instance either of justice or goodness is possible ; for that would make him a necessary Agent ( an error which some men fall into unawares , whilest they are in pursuit of some extreams of opinions ) it may therefore be consistent enough with those Attributes ( barely considered , and looking no further ) that he reward and punish only in this World : but that which follows inevitably , is , that some such thing as rewards and punishments there must be upon the account of mens carriage towards him , which is all I intend hitherto . But then I subjoin . 2. It is highly reasonable upon other accounts , to expect greater rewards of Virtue and Obedience , than what usually befall men in this World ; as also severer punishments of Impiety and neglect of the Divine Majesty , partly because of the unequal distribution of things in this Life , where the race is not always to the swift , nor the battel to the strong , &c. but good and bad events happen oftentimes alike to all ; wicked men are sometimes prosperous , and holy men unfortunate and miserable ; by which intricacy of divine Providence , the Wisdom of God seems to lead us into an expectation of another World , where amends shall be made for what is amiss here ; partly also because the life of men is so short , and they so quickly go off the stage of this World , that neither the rewards of Virtue would be considerable , nor the punishments of Impiety formidable enough , if they were no more than what men could receive or suffer in this short Pilgrimage ; but principally because the good things of this World are so mean , and empty , and inconsiderable , that they afford no satisfaction to the great mind of a virtuous man. Riches , and honour , and pleasure , may perhaps fill and swell up a narrow sensual Soul , but a brave man can by no means be contented with them ; and therefore it is manifestly unworthy of the greatness and goodness of the Divine Majesty , to give no better rewards to those that love and honour him , than what they are capable of in this Life . 3. There is no impossibility in the thing , that there should be another World besides this , and that we should live in it , either to reap the fruit of our serving of God , or to receive the just reward of our Impiety ; all the reason of Mankind , nay all the wit , Scepticism and Sophistry together , can find no repugnancy and contradiction in it ; and therefore the concern of Religion is not inconsiderable . If there were any impossibility in it , it must lie in this , that men should live again after they are dead ; but this is so far from implying a contradiction , that it is not at all difficult to him that believes an Almighty Power , which every one must acknowledge that owns a God ; for why is it harder to restore a man to life again , than to make him at first out of nothing ? so that he relapses into flat Atheism , that denies the possibility of that which we are now making way for the belief of . 4. Nay , I adde further , this thing is so far from being impossible or incredible , that the consideration of the nature of our Souls renders it very probable , and makes us capable of such a condition ; for it is plain , we have that in us which doth not altogether depend upon our Bodies , but our Bodies upon it ; that which gives life and motion to the Body , but receives neither from it ; that which guides , governs , restrains and contradicts the Body when it pleases , and which can act vigorously when the other is weak and languid , as we oftentimes observe the strange efforts of wit and reason , when the Body is almost worn out and at its last gasp . This being of a spiritual nature hath no contrary principles in its constitution , by the conflict of which it should be brought to dissolution , as the other hath . In a word , the Soul hath life in it self ( though not from it self ) and therefore cannot perish , unless either it should be supposed to desert it self , or else that God by his Omnipotency should oppress and destroy it ; which last thing there is no reason to suspect , since from the beginning of the World till now , he hath not put out of being any thing that ever he made ; and we see in all the changes and revolutions of things , the least Atom of matter is not lost : and can it then seem credible , that a vital Spirit should utterly be extinct and perish when it leaves the body , or rather is deserted by it ? and this will be further confirmed if we adde 5. He that made us , hath implanted several things upon our natures which have relation to another Life , and another World , and which make it reasonable for us to expect it accordingly ; such as not only a desire to live , which yet we know we cannot do long here below , but a sollicitude what shall come after , an inquisitiveness and continual thoughtfulness for the future , extending it self infinitely beyond the stage of this short life ; nay , some kind of obscure notion and anticipation of another World , which generally the best of men are most sensible of , and usually the more wise and holy any men are , the more they are under such apprehensions ; and sure it would not consist with the goodness of God to permit such men to be the most deluded , especially he himself would not be guilty of putting a cheat upon them , which notwithstanding must be , if there were nothing at all in it of truth ; forasmuch as this is not the peculiar phancy or opinion , either of the sanguine or of the melancholy constitution , but of all the bravest and worthiest men ; and this is that which principally bears them up in adversity , and fortifies them against Death , and in the approaches of it , sometimes ravishes and transports them . Above all , there is such a thing as Conscience , which is common both to good and bad , and which chears and animates the one whensoever they do virtuously , though no humane Eye be witness of the action , and when they expect no benefit of their performance in this World : And on the other side terrifies and affrights the other , viz. wicked men , though no man be privy to their misdeeds , and this as it were binds them over to answer for them another day ; now all these things being the hand-writing of our Creator upon our Souls , are more than probable Arguments of another World. 6. God hath declared there shall be such a state . He that created Mankind at first , hath assured them he will revive them after Death , and reward and punish them in another World proportionably to their carriage towards himself in this . This comes home to the purpose , whereas all that which hath been said hitherto ( how reasonable soever ) depends upon the uncertain and fluctuating Discourses of men , ( though it is very true , that wherever there hath been wisdom and virtue in conjunction , they have seldom failed to render this great point competently clear to those who had no other light . ) But some are more stagger'd with a trifling objection , than convinced by a demonstration , and others are not able to follow so long a train of consequences as is necessary to make out so great a Question . But now we come into the Day-light , and have divine Revelation for our guide , and Gods veracity for our assurance . I confess I might have fallen upon this way of proof at first , and so have saved all the labour of what I have been saying hitherto , but that I partly thought it useful to shew how far natural Theology would go in this business , and principally I took this method to the intent that this great Doctrine of Christianity might not seem strange to any one , but might be the more readily entertained when it is prefaced to , and usher'd in with so much probability of humane reason . Now , I say , God Almighty hath himself assur'd us , that our labour shall not be in vain in the Lord , that Piety shall not go unrewarded in another World , nor Impiety unpunished ; this he hath innumerable times expresly affirmed in the Gospel , and with such circumstances , as may both best assure our judgments , and awaken our affections . He hath told us he will hold a solemn Judgment at the end of the World , at which all men shall appear and receive their Doom ; he hath declared who shall be the Judge , and confirmed him to be so , by that wonderful instance of raising him from the Dead . He hath foretold the circumstances , and the manner of proceeding at that great day , he hath described ( as well as words could admit it ) the Joy and Glory that holy and good men shall thenceforth be put into the Everlasting possession of , and set out the torments and anguish that shall be inflicted upon the Ungodly . I shall not need to go about to aggrandize these things , since they are so vastly great and concerning that there is no way to despise them but by disbelieving them . But what colour or pretence can there be for that , after God hath said it , and sent his Son to declare this great news to the World ? Will men be so wretchedly absurd as to say still , it is impossible that men should live again after they are once dead ? when there is plain matter of fact against this suggestion , which is beyond all the arguments in the World ; for was not our Saviour most certainly put to Death , and did he not also exhibit himself alive afterwards to the Eyes and Ears , and very feeling of his Apostles and many others ? Will men say , Heaven is but a Dream , or a Romantick fancy ? when there were so many Eye Witnesses of our Saviours Ascension to Heaven , and that he was alive and in power there ; there was that glorious proof , the descent of the Holy Ghost upon his Apostles on the famous day of Pentecost , according to his promise made whilst he was upon Earth . Will they say , God hath a mind to impose upon men ? when he hath no ends to serve by it , when he can compass his designs without it ; and when he hath it in his power to dissolve a World that would not comply with him , and make another in its stead . Or , Will they say , that men impose upon one another , and there was never any such matters of fact as we have here supposed ? But why do they not then disbelive all History , all antient Records , give the lie to all great actions , and abrogate all Faith amongst men ; yea , although there be never so plain , never so numerous , so concurrent , and so disinteressed testimonies ? all this , and more than this , they must do that deny the matters of fact we speak of ; and if they do not do so , they must of necessity believe another Life , an Hell and an Heaven . And then , if those be believed , Piety will be the best Wisdom , and Religion the greatest Truth ; Sin will then be the greatest Folly , and trifling with God and Religion the most dangerous thing imaginable ; but that we shall more particularly make out in the next Chapter . CHAP. IV. Of the great influence and mighty force of believing Heaven and Hell , or rewards and punishments in another World. THere are a sort of men , who ( being too much in love with this World to have any great mind to the other ) will pretend that the grounds to believe these things are not sufficient , and that there are , as the case stands , neither incouragements enough to make a man Religious , nor Arguments powerful enough to restrain Vice ; because we are only prest upon by hopes and fears of hereafter , but nothing befals presently . These men require , that for the countenance of Religion , there should be a present discrimination between him that serves God , and him that despises him ; that the Sinner should be taken and Executed in the very fact , and the good man Crowned upon the spot ; or at least they think it not an unreasonable demand , that if it be the will of God that evil men should be reprieved , and good men kept in suspence till another World ; yet he should give Mankind a view of what shall befal hereafter , that they might have a sight of Heaven and Hell , and so dispose themselves accordingly . The former part of this phancy was taken notice of by Solomon , Eccles . 8. 11. Because Sentence against an evil work is not speedily executed , therefore the heart of man is fully set to do wickedly . The other part of it is much like that of the Forlorn wretch in the Gospel , Luke 16. 30. who thought it reasonable to ask , that one might be sent from the dead to convince his relations of the reality of another World. But all these men , as they do too palpably betray they have no love to Religion , nor no desire it should be true : so they evidently discover that they neither understand what satisfaction is fit for God to give in these matters , or for man to require ; nor do they consider what the nature of Virtue and Religion will admit of , no nor do they understand themselves so well as to know what motives will work upon men ; nor lastly , have they applied their minds to take a just estimate of the value and efficacy of these motives of hopes and fear which it pleases God to set before them . First , They do not consider what satisfaction in these matters it is fit for God to afford , or for men to require . It is not reasonable that the great God should gratify the humour and curiosity of his Creatures , nor that they should peremptorily prescribe to him . It is fit indeed for his goodness to give us assurance in these important affairs ; but he thinks good to satisfy our reasons , and we will have our senses convinced , which is as much as to say , we will not believe God but our own Eyes . Secondly , They do not consider what evidence the nature of Virtue and Piety will admit of , that requires such inducements as may incourage good , and discourage evil , such as may provoke us to choose the one , and to avoid the other , not such as will over bear our choice and necessarily determine us . Religion requires . such Arguments as may improve humane nature , not supersede or destroy it ; and it is best promoted by such a state of things as wherein a man conflicts with some difficulties , exercises self-denial , modesty , humility , and trust in God. It consists in a prudent estimate of all circumstances , a discretion and judgment to value things in reversion , and is worth nothing if there be no such ingredients in it , as Faith , and Patience , and a virtuous choice ; all which there is no room for , if the rewards of it were wholly present , or exposed to our senses . Thirdly , Nor do the men that talk at this rate so much as understand themselves and their own hearts so well , as to know what would be sufficient to prevail with them . They phansy if they had the good luck to be Spectators of a Miracle actually wrought , it would unquestionably lead them to assent ; and yet we see those that were Eye-witnesses of abundance of such , were never the better for them . They imagine that if they had seen the passages of our Saviours Life , Death and Resurrection , they should not have been incredulous ; yet there were multitudes that all those things wrought nothing upon . And assuredly as Abraham told the rich man in the last mentioned passage of St. Luke , if men hear not Moses and the Prophets , i. e. if they do not believe upon such satisfaction as God gives them , neither will they believe upon such other as their curiosity or capricious humour demands , no not if one rose from the dead ; for the same unwillingness which is in them to believe that Evidence which they have , will follow them still , and the same captious temper will except against their own demands , and find evasions if their very Eyes were gratified ; for Faith cannot be extorted from men , nor can any thing make him believe that hath not a mind to it . Lastly , Nor do they understand the force and efficacy of these inducements of hope and fear which God hath set before us ; which is the thing I principally consider in this place . If indeed the objects of these passions , or the things expected in another World were mean and inconsiderable , there were then no reason to expect that they should have any great force upon the minds of men to prevail with them to despise a present World for the attainment of Heaven . Or ( supposing the objects as great as we can ) if the grounds of our hopes and fear were childish and vain , i. e. our fears were panick and unaccountable , and our hopes mere sanguine Dreams , and Romantick phancies ; then it were justly to be expected , that if Almighty God would oblige us to Religion , he should give us better Evidence . But if both the things to be fear'd or expected in another World are vastly great and concerning , if they prove to be real , and also the Evidence or assurance of their reality be reasonable too , then it is no less than madness , to run the hazard of them by neglect of Religion , whilest we fondly cavil to have our humour satisfied . Now that these hopes and fears of rewards and punishments in another World are just and reasonable , and indeed as well grounded as hopes and fears can or ought to be , I have shewed already , forasmuch as if there were more evidence than there is , they would cease to be hopes and fears , and would be the apprehensions of sense . And that the things thus hoped for , and feared , or expected , are of so unspeakable moment , as that if the evidence for them were less than it is , it would be all the wisdom in the World not to run the hazard of them , will easily appear by this short and faint representation . That which good men hope for , and that which God Almighty promises them in the other World , is no less than to be raised up again from the dead , and to live for ever and ever , without any pain , sickness , want or infirmity of Body ; with minds secure from danger , free from temptation , void of care , incapable of fear , errour or disorder , together with serenity of Spirit , peace of Conscience , unspeakable Joy , in the presence of the Divine Majesty , and the blessed Jesus , and in the Society of glorious Angels and good men made perfect , where also they shall partake of a felicity as great as divine Goodness could design , as his wisdom could contrive , and his power effect for their entertainment . On the other side , that which God in the Holy Scripture gives wicked men ground to expect and fear , is , that they also shall be raised up again from the Grave , and then be exposed openly before all the World , their hypocrisy , lewdness , folly and ingratitude being proved upon them ; and they thereupon be condemn'd to utter darkness , to be for ever abandoned of God and good men , and to become the Company indeed , but the sport and triumph , of infernal Spirits , who shall make them the subjects of their malice and tyranny , and there live under the perpetual anguish of their own Consciences ; and in short , full of the wrath of the Almighty , which like Fire and Brimstone shall prey upon them and burn them without remedy or remission of torment . Who now can doubt whether these things are of mighty influence upon the hearts and Consciences of men to incline them to Religion ? For can any man be so void of all manly discretion , as to despise such an happiness as is promised to good men , or so destitute of all sense as to be content to dwell with Everlasting burnings , which will be the portion of wicked men ? No wonder therefore if Felix ( a loose and debauched man ) trembled when St. Paul preached to him of righteousness , temperance and judgment to come , Acts 24. 25. and it would be strange and prodigious fool-hardiness , if any man that lives without regard of God and Religion , should at any time happen to consider these things , and should not find a Convulsion within himself like that of Belshazzar , Dan. 5. 6. when he saw the fingers of an hand writing upon the wall against him , of whom the Text tells us , that thereupon his countenance was changed , his thoughts troubled him , the joints of his loins were loosed , and his knees smote one against the other . For certainly the least impression , which the consideration of these things can make upon a man , is to render sin very uneasy to him , and to spoil his greatest jollities . Forasmuch as every time he knowingly or willfully commits it , he not only judges himself unworthy of eternal life , but defies God Almighty , and treasures up against himself wrath against the day of wrath . And the reflection on this must needs make the prospect of death very terrible to him , when these things shall come into Plea , and when what before was only feared , must now be felt and undergone ; and without a perpetual debauch , it will be hardly possible for him to avoid thinking of this unpleasant Subject , since while he hath his senses about him , he cannot but take notice how daily that unacceptable Guest makes his approaches towards him . And if Death be terrible to a man , it is certain thenceforward life cannot be very comfortable ; for every accident will discompose him , every Disease is dreaded by him , as the Harbinger of that King of terrors ; his Spirits are convulsed , his Joys are blasted , his diversions afford him no relief ; he sees reason to be afraid of every thing , and is tempted basely to flatter and humour every man , because every body hath it in his power to bring upon him the summ of all Calamities , that is , to kill him . Against all this there is no protection , no Sanctuary but in Religion ; if the Sinner flee not to that , he perishes , and which is worse , feels himself tormented before the time : this therefore he is mightily prest to do , by the terrors of another World. And although it is true , that it is not in the nature of fear ( even of Hell it self , ) to make a man generously good , because it only cramps his powers , and is not a principle of action , yet it is an instrument of caution , and if it be attended to , will make him less evil , wherein the first work of Religion , namely Reformation , begins . And then so long as there is Hope also in the other Scale , it may happily not end there . The Apostle hath told us , the law ( which was a Ministry of fear and death ) made nothing perfect , but the bringing in of a better hope did , by the which we draw nigh to God , Hebr. 7. 19. For the hopes of that unspeakable felicity and glory , which , as I shew'd before , doth await all good men in another World , is able to make a man forget flesh and infirmity , to despise danger and difficulty , and to raise him above himself , 2 Pet. 1. 4. Those great and precious promises which are propounded to us by the Gospel , do make a man partaker of a divine nature . For great hopes raise brave Spirits , and effect wonders . The mere perswasion , that I have an immortal Soul , is of mighty efficacy to make me value my self more , than to think my self made to eat and drink ; and will not permit me to drown this divine particle in drink and debauches , nor exert it only in folly and buffonry ; but will prompt me to cultivate this immortal part , to furnish it with wisdom and knowledge , that I may enjoy it the better in another World : To subdue my sensual inclinations , that I may learn betimes to live like an Angel , and to castigate my anger and wrath , and fury and malice , those unsociable vices , that I may be fit for that peaceable conversation , and Everlasting Friendship in Heaven . The thoughts of living for ever will not suffer a man to be fond of the present life , but will inable him to banish all servile fear , to defy danger , to flatter no bodies follies , to comply with no bodies vices , but to dare to be good in spight of an evil Age , and bad Examples . For what should cow him that hath this Armour of proof , and is every way invulnerable ? The contemplation of those inestimable good things laid up for good men in Heaven , is not only able to restrain sensuality , rapine , injustice , treachery ; but to make self-denial very easy , and to place a man so high above the vanities of this World , that he shall only look down upon the things themselves with contempt and scorn , and upon the men that dote upon them with wonder and pity . He that hath hopes given him of seeing and enjoying the blessed Jesus in Heaven , will according to the Apostle S. John 1. Epist . 3. 3. find himself powerfully obliged to purify himself as he is pure . And to say no more , he that believes that God is , and that he is such a rewarder of those that diligently seek him , must needs find great inducements to seek and serve him accordingly . CHAP. V. What particular Religion we should apply our selves to . HAving in the premisses discovered the ground and foundation of Religion in general , and thereby made it appear to be so highly reasonable , that it is every mans wisdom and interest to comply with it ; We now proceed to inquire , what mode or profession of Religion in special , he ought to apply himself to , who is convinced of the necessity of it in the general . And this is the rather to be done , because some men make the variety of Religions which they observe in the World , an argument against them all ; and because there are so many forms of it that they cannot easily resolve which to addict themselves to , these men ( as they think very wisely ) pitch upon none , but fairly stand Neuters . Now for prevention of this mischief , as well as to make way for the resolution of the great Question before us , let us consider these two things . First , that it is not only an impious , but a very foolish and frantick resolution to stand off from all Religion , upon pretence that there are differences and disputes about it . For 1. Men will not be content to go by that rule in other Cases , no man will conclude there is no such thing as meum and tuum , or right and wrong in their Civil interests , because they observe Lawyers to wrangle at the Bar , or to give different opinions in particular Cases ; nor because Physicians often disagree in their Judgments of Diseases , will any discreet man refuse their assistance , and resolve to let his Disease take its course : this objection therefore of sceptical men , is but a mere pretence made use of to countenance their aversation to Religion , and not a real Maxime of Reason with them . 2. The ground of this objection is foolishly or maliciously represented ; for it is plain , that the main things of Religion are very little or nothing in dispute , but are confessed and agreed in by all . Or if there be some points of moment disputed , they are generally such as are speculative , not matters of practice . For who disputes whether God should be worshipped ? whether a man should live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present World ? in such things as these , all discreet and well disposed men agree . Let the sceptical person therefore agree to these too , and practise them ; or else let him be so ingenuous as to acknowledge , it is only his unwillingness to comply with the rules of a good life , which makes him pretend to stumble at disputes . 3. It is to be considered , that even those who differ and dispute in several points , agree notwithstanding in this , that it is the wisest and safest course to come to a resolution in Religion , forasmuch as particular disputes about it , prove undeniably this in the general , that by confession of all Parties there is great moment in it ; because there could be no reason why either the one side or the other should trouble themselves , and raise such heats about it , but that both are satisfied of the great consequence of the subject of the question , and the consideration of that is it which makes them be so nice , curious and critical , about the very punctilioes of it . But , Fourthly and lastly , It is especially to be considered , that he that stands neutral , and holds off from all Religion upon pretence of the danger of mistake , upon account of the great variety of perswasions , runs into the most fatal mistake of all , and is of all men in the most desperate condition ; for whatsoever becomes of other men , under a mistaken zeal or a false opinion , he is certainly a lost man who hath no Zeal or Religion at all . For though it be certain , all perswasions cannot be right , and therefore some must miscarry ; yet so long as there is a real foundation for Religion in general ( as we have seen ) it is evident the Sceptist cannot be saved ( whoever be damned ) who entertains no perswasion at all . Therefore as it is better uncertainly to erre , than certainly to perish ; so it must needs be a wiser course to determine our selves someway , notwithstanding the disputes , than gravely to doubt our selves into Hell by a phantastical neutrality . But then secondly , as it is a very dangerous and absurd resolution to be of no Religion , for fear we should mistake the right ; it is not much better on the other side , to be such Latitudinarians , as to think it indifferent what Religion a man be of , so long as he is zealous and devout in his way , unless we could be assured , that the broad way was the way to Heaven , which is most certainly false . I confess it is a very bad Religion indeed which is not better than none at all , as the faintest hopes are better than utter desperation . And it is undoubtedly true , that without fervour and devotion in the prosecution of a mans perswasion , no Religion , be it never so good and Orthodox , will signify any thing . It is true also , that a man of a devout temper hath the ground of Piety , and a foundation for good institution to work upon ; yet notwithstanding Religion speaks something more than to be in earnest , and Piety requires more than a good intention . For unless that honest temper be cultivated and improved , it will bring forth nothing but wild fruit ; that zeal must be governed and conducted by good principles , or it will betray a man to presumption , to superstition , and to a thousand irregularities . We are set to run a race towards Heaven , but in that case it is not only speed , but the keeping the exact course withal , that intitles to the reward . He that runs wrong , the more hast he makes , the worse is his speed ; for he hath the more to undo again . Nor is this any reflection upon the Divine Majesty , who is infinitely good , and consequently very pitiful to the well-meant errors of Mankind ; for it must be considered , that he is wise , and great , and just also , not so soft and fond as to be pleased with whatsoever is well meant towards him , or to be contented with whatever men phansy . No , he hath a mind and will of his own , and requires and expects those be complied withal by such as he rewards with Eternal Life . Therefore the Question which we are now upon is very serious and necessary , viz. how amidst such variety of perswasions or forms of Religion as are in the World , a man may make a right choice , and know which of them in particular he ought to determine himself upon . But the assoiling of it cannot be difficult , forasmuch as if God will be served in his own way , it is evident , that he must have taken some course or other for the discovery and interpreting of his mind and will to the Sons of men , to the intent that they may have a rule to govern their devotions by . Now it is plain , beyond dispute , that there are three and but three things which can with any colour of probability pretend to give us aim in this Case , viz. natural light , the Spirit , or the holy Scriptures ; and therefore all the difficulty comes to this point , which of these three we are to follow and govern our selves by . As for the first of the three , namely the light of nature , or natural reason ; it is true , that this is able in some measure to discover to us that there is a God , and to assure us also of some of his Attributes and perfections , so as to lay a general foundation of Religion ( as we have briefly shewed already ) but it can neither discover all the divine perfections , because he is infinite and beyond our comprehension , nor much less penetrate the depths of his counsels , or the secrets of his will and pleasure , because ( as we also noted before ) he is a free Agent , and hath no necessary measures , but freely chuses as it pleases him . And therefore as no man knows the mind of a man but the spirit of a man which is in him , so much less can any man know the mind of God till he be pleased to reveal it . Now the design of Religion being to please and propitiate the divine Majesty to us , it is impossible any man should pretend to know what will fully do that by natural reason . Consequently not only the old Philosophers but the modern Theists , and that Sect of men called Quakers , who pretend to attain happiness by the natural notions of God , or the light within them ; must miserably be bewildered whilest they follow so imperfect and uncertain a Guide . As for the second , namely a private Spirit , there is no doubt but that the divine majesty could ( if he had pleased ) have conducted men by immediate Revelation , and as it were led them by his own immediate hand from time to time , dictating his own will to their minds ; and there is as little reason to question , but that sometimes in extraordinary Cases he hath done so in former times : but that this should be his ordinary and standing course , is not reasonable to think ; not only because we cannot now observe , that the best of men either have experience of , or so much as pretend to any such thing , but because in the first place it is evident that such immediate Revelation could be of no further use than to that particular person to whom it was made , in regard it would be like the white stone , Rev. 2. 17. which no man knows what is written upon it , but he that receives it ; and secondly , because the very person himself that should pretend to it could not secure himself from illusion , but might easily mistake the Idols of his own phancy , or the very illusions of the Devil , for the dictates of the Divine Spirit ( as we find by sad experience that many have done ) unless there were withal a constant succession of Miracles to assure their minds that it was the divine impression : Therefore , forasmuch as those who pretend to the Spirit , can give no assurance of it , and natural reason cannot pretend to discover sufficiently the Divine Will ; it remains , that only the Holy Scripture is that which must be our guide in the way to please God , and attain the Salvation expected in another World. The holy Scripture then is that provision God hath thought fit to make for our weakness and ignorance . This is the transcript of the divine mind , a light that shineth in darkness , and by which divine wisdom designed to guide us through all the maze of disputes , and to resolve us of all the important questions that concern our eternal interest ; and this is that which he hath so fitted to our use , that whosoever consults it with a mind free from prejudices and anticipation , he shall not miss his way to Heaven . Nor shall such a man as is disposed to receive the Kingdom of God as a little Child , i. e. comes with a mind willing to learn and be convinced , and with that temper applies himself to the holy Scripture , need either the pretended infallibility of a Pope , or the Authority of a Church to interpret it to him : For it is certain God is as able to express his mind to us , as either of these are , whensoever he thought fit to do so ; and where he resolved to be obscure , it is not to any purpose to consult them in the Case , who are no more privy to his secret counsels than we our selves are . And it is not consistent either with the goodness or wisdom of God , to order matters so , that he should be betray'd to any capital error ( so as to indanger his Salvation ) who applies himself to the holy Scripture , and comes qualified with an honest heart , and in the use of such ordinary means as are afforded for the understanding of them . It is indeed not impossible , but that such a man , notwithstanding both the perfection and perspicuity of his rule , may erre in some smaller matters ; but there is no reason to fear they should be either such as will abuse him in the great Doctrines of Faith , or the rules of a good Life ; he can neither mistake the Object of his worship , nor the manner of it , nor indanger the glory of God , or his own Salvation . For this will direct him to a Religion plain and easy , humble and peaceable , reasonable and hearty ; a Religion that neither imposes an implicit Faith , nor countenances a bold presumption , that will make men devout without superstition , and holy without arrogance or pretending to merit at Gods hands ; in a word , the holy Scripture impartially consulted , will bring us to a Religion that shall neither consist of speculations , and be opinionative and fanatical on the one side , nor made up of external shew and pomp , as that of the Church of Rome on the other side , but such as that of the Church of England , which manifestly avoids both extreams . CHAP. VI. More particular Directions for the setling a mans mind in Religion . ALthough it be never so certain , that the holy Scripture was both composed and preserved by the providence of God , for mens guidance in the way to Heaven ; and notwithstanding its great perspicuity and sufficiency in that case ; yet ( as I intimated before ) prejudice of mind is able to defeat the ends of it : therefore for the removal of that , it will be of great use that the following particulars be considered . First , He that would make a right use of the holy Scripture , and thereby discover the true lineaments of Religion , let him make inquiry after the most antient and the most Catholick Religion , and not indulge his curiosity so as to be taken either with novelty , or singularity ; for each of those will lead him aside , both from the truth of Religion in general , and from the Christian Religion in particular . As for the former of these notes of Religion , viz. Antiquity , the oldest Religion must needs be as much the truer , as God is before the Devil ; therefore the Prophet Jerem. 6. 16. directs the people to inquire for the good old way , and walk therein , and they should find rest to their souls ; and for Christianity in particular , forasmuch as that depends upon Divine Revelation , it is impossible that After-ages should add any thing to it , or make improvement of it , without new revelation . Whilst God is of the same mind , Heaven of the same nature , and the Gospel of the same tenor , there can be no new Christianity . Therefore let all new lights go for Ignes fatui , and mere meteors , that serve to no purpose but to bewilder men ; he that seeks for true Christianity , let him neither content himself to look back to 41 , or the last Age , as some do ; nor 500. years backward to a dark Age , as others ; but let him inquire for a Religion as old as Gospel , and observe in what Rules it was delivered , and in what Examples it first shew'd it self in the World. As for the other note of Religion , viz. Universality ; It is certain , the true Religion is the most truly Catholick . For it is evident , that our Saviour intended but one Church , and one Religion in all the World ; and to that purpose he instituted Christianity in such sort , that it should agree with all times and ages , fit all Countries and Climates , suit all Constitutions and conditions of men , and subsist under whatsoever form of Government , or Civil polity it should meet with . Those therefore who model Religion according to the peculiar fashion of some one Country , or frame a notion of it which requires a certain complexion and temper of Body ; ( as for instance , that make some austerities essential to it , which all cannot comply with ) or that describe a Religion for the Cloyster , and not adequate to common Life ; or that model it so , as that it must have the Civil Government submitted to it , or it cannot subsist ; or in a word , that confine it to narrow bounds , or Canton it into separate parties : none of these understand the true genius of Christianity , nor take the measures of Religion from the holy Scripture . Secondly , He that would make a right choice of his Religion , must not take it upon publick Faith , or be determined by common fame , or so much as regard the loud shouts and acclamations of the vulgar . For they are generally sworn Enemies to sober reason , as being moved more by heat than light , and governed by sense and phancy , and consequently cannot entertain any great esteem for a modest , sedate , manly and rational Religion , but on the contrary infinitely dote upon all the tricks of Superstition and Enthusiasm ; and those two do so wholly govern them , that they receive no impression of Religion where one or other of them doth not strike their imaginations . As for Superstition , the wonderful efficacy of that upon common minds , is so notorious , that nothing can be more . If they see a man so extreamly scrupulous , that he finds ( as we say ) a knot in a Bullrush ; so squeamish and strait-laced , that he becomes a burden to himself and all about him ; so infinitely full of doubts , and fears , and jealousies , that he scandalizes Religion by his impertinency , and renders God Almighty a very unbenign and severe Majesty : such a man notwithstanding is apt to be cried up as a great Saint , although in greater matters perhaps he gives himself more liberty than other men . Or if they observe a man pretend to great austerity and mortification by the carelessness of his habit , dejectedness of his Countenance , or other peculiarity of his garb , as wearing an hair shirt , or girt with a rope , especially if he also macerate himself with Fasting , or whip himself till the blood comes , or use any such severity towards himself , they are strangely affected with this pageant of Piety , and these things alone are security enough to them that he is an holy man , and of the best Religion . Thus no doubt the Priests of Baal , who ( as we read , 1 Kings 18. 26. ) prayed from Morning to Mid-day , made horrible outcries , and used antick postures , and amongst the rest , in a blind Zeal , cut themselves with Knives and Lancets , had a mighty veneration amongst the rabble of superstitious Israelites , insomuch that the Prophet Elijah , with all the holiness of his life , and very great austerity of conversation too , was not able to bear up with them . And thus the Scribes and Pharisees in our Saviours time , what by their demure and mortified looks , disfigured Faces , and outward appearance of Sanctimony ; what by their broad phylacteries , and fringes of their Garments , beset with sharp thorns to prick and vex them ; what with long Prayers and frequent Fastings , and such other Artifices , they so led the people by the Nose , that all the wisdom , temper , goodness , nay Miracles of our Saviour were scarce sufficient to procure their attention to him . And thus it will be also with Enthusiasm , that raises the admiration , and captivates the minds of the generality as much or more than superstition . If a man pretend to the Spirit , and to extraordinary Communications from the Divine Majesty ; if he now and then either feel or can counterfeit raptures and transports , so that by turns he shall be sometimes as it were snatcht up to the third Heaven , and at another time be cast down to Hell ; and if in these fits he can talk non-sense confidently , can make vehement harangues against pride , formality , or superstition ; if he make shew of extraordinary Zeal and Devotion , and have the pride or insolency to speak ill of his Betters , to slight all ordinary Forms and censure the Government ; if he have either an horrible Voice , or an oily melting tone , an artificial Countenance , a peculiar motion of his Eyes , or especially hath the trick to resemble an Epilepsy in all this Legerdemain , then when he speaks evil of dignities , he shall be thought to have the zeal and spirit of Elias , but unquestionably the spirit of God is in him , and he is admired , if not adored , by inconsiderate people . When in the mean time , sound Doctrine , sober reason , wise conversation , and grave Piety , shall signify nothing but form and carnality with them . For ( as I intimated before ) such things as I last named , commend themselves only to a sedate mind , and a considerative temper ; but the other bear strongly upon the senses and the phancies of men , and so carry away the vulgar . He therefore that would not have his devout intention abused , must not suffer the multitude to chuse his Religion for him , nor take it upon trust from publick fame and noise ; for if he decide this case by the poll , he shall be sure to have shadow for substance , and either imbrace a Religion made up of paint and varnish , or else one animated only by a spirit of Enthusiasm . Thirdly , He that would make a right choice in Religion , and is content to follow the measures of the holy Scripture therein , must resolve with himself , not to seek for , or pitch upon such a way as will put him to the least pains , and give him the least trouble ; but be willing to deny himself , and to conflict with any difficulty that he may save his Soul ; for pretended easy Religions are like Mountebanks Cures , deceitful and palliative . Some men have the folly to perswade themselves , that a Religion consisting of mere Faith , without the trouble of a good Life will serve the turn ; nay , that to be of a peculiar Party , Sect or Church will be sufficient ; but then it is strange our Saviour should bid us strive to enter in at the strait gate : for it would be a wonder if any should miss of Heaven upon these terms ; or if any be so sottish , they deserve to perish without pity . Others there are that entertain a conceit of getting to Heaven by the merits of other men , as by purchasing an Indulgence , or by hiring a Priest to say Prayers for the man when he is dead , that would not be at the trouble to pray for himself whilst he was alive ; or by getting a plenary absolution of all his sins at the last gasp , or some other such voluptuous and compendious ways of Salvation . He that seeks out such expedients as these , argues that he hath some little love to himself , so far as to be loth to be damned , but that he hath none at all towards God or Virtue ; and indeed demonstrates , that he hath not so much as any worthy notion of God , or apprehension of the nature of the happiness of the other World. Nay , he gives evidence , that he is as much in love with his sins as with himself , and would have both saved together . St. Paul assures us 2 Cor. 5. 10. that when we shall appear at the Judgment-seat of Christ , we shall receive our Doom , according to the things done in the body , whether good or evil ; not according to what shall be done for us when we are out of the Body , much less according to what others have either officiously or mercenarily performed for us . All such methods are Cheats , the artifices of Hypocrisy , and constitute only a Religion for an Epicure , but are as far , as Hell is from Heaven , from the institutions of the Scripture . It is true our Saviour saith , his yoke is easy , and his burthen light , but that is spoken either comparatively to the burden of the Mosaick Law , especially considered with the additional impositions of the Scribes and Pharisees , who as he tells us , laid heavy burdens upon others , but would not buckle under them themselves ; or with respect to the great assistance and mighty incouragement which those men shall meet with that apply themselves in earnest to Christianity . For certainly , if there had been no considerable difficulty in the Christian Religion , the first Lesson of it would not have been , that a man must deny himself . Nor would our Saviour have required us , that if our right eye or right hand offend us , we must pluck out the one , and cut off the other , that we may enter into Life . CHAP. VII . Cautions against some opinions which are hindrances both of an Holy and of a Comfortable Life . WHen a man hath setled his Principles , and made a good choice of his Profession of Religion , he is then in a fair way towards an Holy and a Comfortable Life ; yet there are several vulgar opinions , which if they be not carefully avoided will have an unhappy influence upon both , and therefore it is expedient he should be cautioned against them ; especially such as those whereof I will here give a Catalogue in the particulars following . To which I will premise this in the general , that although some of the opinions that shall be mentioned , may seem only mere speculations in the first view of them , and perhaps may go no further with some persons , whose singular probity and sincerity of heart may antidote them against the malignity of such tenets , yet in their own nature and the genuine consequences of them , they are very dangerous , as shall now be made appear in particular . 1. Therefore let him that would make a due improvement of the Principles of Christianity , take care of allowing himself to pry too curiously into the secret counsels of God , or of marshalling too confidently the Decrees of Election and Reprobation , and especially of arguing presumptuously concerning his own or other mens Salvation or Damnation from them . There is no question with me but that God Almighty foreknew from all Eternity whatsoever should come to pass in after times ; and let it be taken for granted also , that from the same Eternity he decreed with himself whatsoever he would afterwards effect or permit ; nay let us moreover suppose he hath expresly determined with himself who shall be saved and who shall be damned , and that so peremptorily , that only they shall be saved whom he hath so decreed to save , and those shall certainly be damned whom he hath past such a Decree upon . But what then ? the proper and only reasonable use we can make of these suppositions , is to admire the Divine Eternity , Soveraignty , Power and Omniscience ; here is neither matter for our curiosity nor for our reason to descant upon : not for our curiosity , since it is plainly impossible to know , what the particular import of those Decrees is , or whom they concern ; and less for our reason , since if we will argue any thing hence , it must be no better than deducing conclusions from unknown premisses . The very prying into these Cabinet Counsels ( besides the folly and immodesty of it ) tends to very ill purposes , for it certainly either blows men up with presumption , or casts them headlong into desperation . The sanguine , and confident , and self-applauding , are filled with vain hopes by these speculations ; and the modest , melancholy and despondent tempers , are inclined to despair by them . But the arguing and drawing consequences of Salvation or Damnation from thence , contradicts the design of the whole Scripture , which charges us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling , and to use diligence to make our calling and election sure ; Nay it turns into ridicule all the Exhortations , threatnings and promises of the Gospel . For to what purpose doth God perswade us , when he hath irrevocably determined our fate with himself ? It discourages all use of means , and all comfort in so doing , since it will be labour in vain : it baffles Conscience whensoever it either checks us for sin , or would comfort us for doing virtuously ; for what matter is it what Conscience saith , when God hath decreed ? it renders the solemnity of the great day of judgment a mere piece of empty pomp and pageantry , seeing mens Cases are all decided before-hand ; nay it makes the very coming of our Saviour , his Life , Death , Propitiation and Intercession , to be illusory and insignificant things ; forasmuch as upon this supposition , men are saved or damned antecedently to his undertaking . Now if after all this , any man will be so desperately absurd and fool-hardy , as to say nevertheless Gods Decrees are irrevocable , and therefore the matter of fact is true , that if I be decreed to Salvation , I shall then be saved without more ado ; and if I be decreed to be damned , I must perish , and there will be no help for it ; it will be in vain to use means seeing I shall but strive against the stream ; my Doom is past , and I may bewail my hard fortune , but cannot reverse it . I would only further ask such a man this plain Question , viz. How he came to perswade himself that God Almighty hath decreed to save and damn men right or wrong ( as we say ) i. e. whether they repent and believe in Christ , Jesus or no. Forasmuch as it is evident , that he that harbours such an opinion of the Divine Majesty contradicts the very notion of a God , and represents him to be the worst and most hateful Being imaginable ; a Being that hath only power and will , but hath neither love nor hatred , neither wisdom , justice nor goodness in him at all ; that hath no esteem for Faith , Virtue or Piety , no sense of gratitude and ingenuity , nor any aversation to baseness and villany ; but as if he were an unmoved , rigid Idol , is inflexible by any repentance , prayers , tears , addresses and importunities , and insensible of , and unprovoked by all the affronts and insolencies that can be done to him : to be sure he that can think thus of God , will easily believe him to have set a mean value upon the blood of his only Son ; forasmuch as he hath given him up to Death to no purpose upon the aforesaid supposition . Now unless all this be true ( which is impossible ) there can be no colour nor foundation for such an horrid and barbarous opinion . And if this be false , as most certainly it is , then we shall easily be led into this Scriptural Hypothesis of the divine Decrees , viz. that as he decreed from all Eternity to send his Son to be the Saviour of the World , so he then also determined that as many as should believe on him should be saved , and such as did not so , should be damned . And then , what if we find it to follow from the nature of Gods Omniscience , that he must foreknow the individual persons that shall be saved or damned , or from the nature of his determinations , that only such and no other can be saved , namely , those he hath decreed to it ; yet then it will be evidently to no purpose to gaze up to Gods Decrees : for then whatever hath been written in the Archives of Heaven , it is certain it cannot contradict this , That if I believe and repent , and become a good and holy man , I shall be saved , or otherwise I shall be damned ; and then all is plain before me : for in this case I have nothing further to do , but to make use of the means of Grace which God affords me , and to look into my own heart and life for my Evidences of Heaven . Thus as the wise Persian , who sooner found the Sun to be upon the Horizon , by turning himself towards the Western Hills , than he that fixing his Eyes upon the East , expected to see the Sun it self : so we shall sooner find the beams of divine favour in the reverse and reflection of them upon our own Souls , than by a presumptuous prying into his secret purposes . And the consideration of this truth will ingage men in all care and caution , in all diligence and humility , in the use of means , till they gradually improve into a state of holiness and comfort here , and to assurance of the Kingdom of Heaven hereafter . And this is the course which the Apostle leads us to , 2 Tim. 2. 19. The foundation of God standeth sure , having his seal , the Lord knoweth who are his , and let him that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity ; as if he had said , It is true indeed , God knows from Eternity whom he intends to save , and all such shall eventually be saved and none else , but our hope and comfort cannot be built upon unknown principles , such as only are recorded in Heaven , but upon the counterpart of an holy life , or a conformity to those conditions which God hath expressed in his Gospel , as a Copy from the Original , kept in his own bosom . 2. The next dangerous mistake which we ought carefully to avoid , is , concerning the Grace and holy Spirit of God. When men unreasonably expect that God should do all for them in the business of their Salvation , without their own indeavours , upon pretence that we can do nothing our selves , and therefore it is in vain to go about it ; our part is only to wait Gods time of working , and when his holy Spirit moves , the business will be done without more ado , but in the mean time all our diligence is discharged as impertinent , and even our Prayers too ( if this Doctrine be consistent with it self ) : for according to this opinion , if ever men come to Heaven , they must be dragged thither by Omnipotency , ( as the Disciples of Mahumet expect to be by the hair of their heads . ) Now though it be undoubtedly true , that all the good that is in us , is owing to the father of lights from whom every good and perfect gift cometh , forasmuch as he worketh in us both to will and to do ; and therefore we can never magnify grace enough , nor attribute too much to the holy Spirit ( without making machines of our selves , and nonsense of the Gospel ) yet it is as sure on the other hand , that God needs not that we should tell a lie for him , nor would have us slander his Creation for the honour of Regeneration , since he doth not destroy the man when he makes a Christian . So far from it , that ( as I have noted before ) he charges us to strive to enter in at the strait gate , and to use all our diligence to make our calling and election sure , Which plainly implies , that he doth not intend to supersede our powers when he repairs our natures ; and that although he made us without our own activity , yet he will not save us without our own indeavours . And therefore the holy Scripture always represents to us the way of Gods working good in our Souls , to be by exciting our Spirits , by assisting and strengthening our faculties , and by cooperating with us , not by over-bearing our capacity , and doing all for us without us ; insomuch that that man who dreams of being carried to Heaven by Omnipotency , without his own concurrence , is so far from any incouragement from the Scripture , to hope that ever he shall come there , that it is most certain he shall never see that happy estate , unless it please the divine mercy to make him so early sensible of this fatal errour , that he may timely repent and pursue the right way thither . For he that expects to attain the Kingdom of Heaven by Miracle , it will be a Miracle indeed if he come thither . And this fond opinion is as mischievous as it is unscriptural , not only as it apparently deprives a man of all the comfortable reflections of his own Conscience upon whatsoever ( by the grace of God ) he hath obtained , forasmuch as it equals the condition and character of the most slothful Epicure , with that of the most generous and industrious ; but especially as it disposes men to slight all the means of grace , and all the advantages of Gods Church , and that upon good reason : for if this opinion be true , they are all insignificant and collusory . It also tempts men to sin , and that without regret or remorse , under a pretence that they cannot help it ; and in short , it perfectly betrays them to their own lusts , and into the hands of the Devil , making way for whatsoever temptation he will think fit to make use of . For the man of this perswasion ( that it is impossible to make resistance ) is bound by his own principles , and to save himself useless trouble , to strike Sail and surrender upon the first assault or Summons . 3. A third dangerous opinion , which it is necessary to be cautioned against , is a mistaken notion of sins of infirmity ; this at first mention of it may seem of kin to that which I last spoke of , but as I intend it , it is of a different nature , viz. when men do not altogether discourage their own indeavours upon the pretence of natural impotency in general , but yet perswade themselves that some certain sins in particular are so necessary to them , and unavoidable , that God will allow of them under the favourable notion of infirmities , and pardon them without repentance . It is very true , there are such things as pitiable infirmities , which the best of men cannot be altogether free from , and which infinite goodness therefore so far considers , as to make a vast difference between them and wilful or presumptuous sins ; pardoning the former upon a general repentance , whereas he requires a very particular repentance for , and reformation of the latter . But the mischief ( which I seek here to prevent ) is when men cheat themselves into a perswasion that some voluntary sin or other is necessary to them , and therefore must come under this estimate of infirmity , and consequently need neither be repented of nor forsaken ; from whence it comes to pass , that ordinarily the sin which hath been most customary and habitual to them , ( because it easily besets them , and they find it not easy or pleasant to them to forgoe it ) is therefore incouraged under the favourable name of infirmity . For thus they say , every man hath his infirmities , and this is mine ; and so the mouth of Conscience is made up , as if a pardon of course were due to it , without the solemnity of Reformation . They will allow such a case to be that which they must always complain of , but yet they never expect or desire to see it cured ; for these sins are thought to be only like the Canaanites in the land , or some other remainder of those devoted and accursed Nations , which must never be quite rooted out , but be always as Thorns in the Eyes , and Goads in the sides of the true Israelites , i. e. tolerated but not extirpated . But if this be not a very false notion , what was the meaning of our Saviour when he requires us to cut off our right hand , and to pluck out our right eye , when either of them offend us ? That is , that if we will enter into life , we must part with the sin that is as pleasant to us as our Eyes , as necessary or convenient to us as our right hand , and as painful to part withal as either of them . Whereas if the aforesaid Doctrine of infirmity take place with us , it will save all the pains and trouble of mortification , and keep the body of sin whole and intire , and yet put men in hopes they may go to Heaven notwithstanding ; and no sin that we have a kindness to , but a man may enjoy it without danger . For thus , it shall be one mans infirmity to be drunk , another mans to swear , a third mans to be seditious or censorious ; and in short , by the benefit of a soft word or distinction ( together with a good opinion of a mans self ) he may reconcile God and Mammon , Christ and Belial , Hell and Heaven . But this cheat is too palpable , for the Plea of infirmity is only allowable in such Cases as these following ; namely , when either ignorance or mis-information betrays a man into errour , or he fails in the manner of doing that which was otherwise good for the matter of it , or a great fear over-powers him , or the suddenness of a temptation surprizes him before he was so much aware as to collect himself ; or something of like nature to these , may be called sins of infirmity . But assuredly , that which a man knows to be a sin , and yet commits it , that which a man takes pleasure in , and lives in the habitual practice of , can never be esteemed a meer pitiable infirmity ; and therefore whosoever truly loves his own Soul , and is in earnest for Eternity , hath great reason to take care of this errour . 4. A fourth danger I would give warning against , is the mistaken opinion about Conversion to God , which if it be rightly understood , is a great , solemn and divine thing , and whereever it is truly accomplisht , is the happiest passage of a mans whole life , and the very Crisis of Eternity , viz. when either a man who ( by unhappy Education or otherwise ) was betray'd to evil and mischievous opinions , comes by the advantage of better information and the grace of God , to be otherwise instructed and set right in his principles , or especially when one who was formerly of a lewd and flagitious life , is by the grace of the Gospel now brought to a sight of his sin , a sense of his danger , and thereupon changes his whole course and becomes a new and holy man : Both these are ( as I said ) great , and solemn , and happy things , to be spoken of with all reverence , and considered with joy and admiration . But now there is a two fold mistake very common in this great affair , viz. when either such a Conversion ( as we have now described ) is looked upon as universally necessary , and prescribed to all men , as the condition of their Salvation , or else ( which is far worse ) when the whole nature of the thing is mistaken , and conversion from sin to God , is made to be a mere momentaneous act , a kind of qualm or fit of Religion , and as such is relied upon , as sufficient to Salvation , without an habitual course of holy life subsequent to it . Both these last named are false and dangerous opinions , but the evil of the former of them lies in this , that it is apt to perplex the Consciences , and disturb the peace of very good men , viz. When those who by the blessing of God have been trained up in good principles , and by his grace not only preserved from a loose and debauched life , but ingaged also in a holy and virtuous course all along , shall notwithstanding have it preached to them , and prest upon them , that they also must be converted and born again , or else they shall never see the Kingdom of God. This indeed was necessary and proper Doctrine from our Saviour to Nicodemus , and to the generality of the Jews , as well as from the Apostles to the Pagan World , who had been nursed up in Ignorance , Superstition and Idolatry : But it was not preached to John the Baptist , nor to St. John the Apostle , nor to Timothy , who had known the holy Scriptures from a Child , 2 Tim. 3. 15. and who had been early ingaged in an holy life , by the blessing of God upon the careful instructions of his Grandmother Lois and his mother Eunice , 2 Tim. 1. 5. not can such Doctrine ( without equal indiscretion and danger ) be preached to several others now who are of that condition , that as our Saviour saith , they need no repentance . But it is the latter of these opinions about Conversion , which I intend in this place principally to give caution against , viz. when a man who hath been formerly either of a sottish and careless , or of a notoriously debaucht and profligate life , shall be incouraged to think his peace is made with God from such time as he hath had a qualm come over his Conscience , and been put into a mood of seriousness and devotion , having been taught to date his Regeneration from hence . The mischief of this mistake is very frequent and apparent , for that it tempts men to grow secure before they are safe , and it is very common and natural for such persons to grow careless of themselves upon a vain confidence in this kind of Conversion , as if now their work were done , without the trouble of bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance and amendment of life . Nay further , when perhaps such men have committed some such great sin , as ( that were it not for this unhappy errour ) would startle their Consciences , they are hereby ( instead of applying themselves to God by hearty repentance ) inclined only fondly to look back , and to remember that such a time I was converted , and enter'd into a state of grace , and therefore all is well enough already ; and from hence it comes to pass also , that nothing is more frequent than such mens falling from grace in this sense , that is , to apostatize from such hopeful beginnings ; for indeed they were at most but beginnings , but being foolishly rested in , as if they had amounted to the whole attainment of Christianity , they flatter men into security first , and betray them to shame afterwards . And the falsity of this conceit is evident in this , that whereas it makes the great business of Eternity to lie in an instantaneous act , the transaction perhaps of a day or an hour , or a Sermon , the holy Scripture quite contrary-wise represents it as the business of a mans whole life , and requires , that men not only set out well , but that they make a daily and gradual progression towards Heaven ; forasmuch as it tells us , that otherwise he who hath begun in the spirit may end in the flesh , and that a man may return with the Dog to his vomit , &c. and then the latter end of such a man is worse than the beginning . 5. Another mistake not inferiour to any of the former , either in respect of errour or danger , is about the power and authority of Conscience , viz. When men perswade themselves that all is right and true , which they are satisfied of in their Consciences , and that it is lawful for them to do whatsoever that dictates to them , or allows them in , as if Conscience were not a thing to be ruled but to rule , and were invested with a kind of Soveraignty , so that it were a Law to it self , and to others also . If you reprove some mans opinion ( instead of arguments for it ) he tells you it is his Conscience , and that 's enough ; or if you blame some action of his life , he regards not your reprehensions , for , saith he , my Conscience smites me not for it , and therefore I am safe ; or if you forewarn him of some counsels or undertakings as tending to Sedition and publick disturbance , it is no matter , it is his Conscience , and he must pursue it . The mischief of this is very intolerable , for by this means the most foolish and extravagant actions are justified , and the malefactor rendered incorrigible , being both hardened in his sin and in his sufferings , for ( if it come to that ) you cannot convince such men , for they have a testimony within them which is infallible , and in confidence of that , whensoever you bring an Argument which they cannot answer , they reject and defy it as a temptation of the Devil . If you rebuke them , you blaspheme the holy Spirit ; if you go about to restrain them , you violate the most sacred Prerogative of Conscience , and are gulty of the only sacriledge which ( in their opinion ) can be committed , and which is worst of all , thus God is intitled to the very passions and follies of such men , and to all the extravagancies in the World : for if it be their Conscience , God must patronize it , and bear the blame of all . Now one would justly wonder what these men think this thing called Conscience to be , surely no less than some God Almighty within them , and so indeed several expressions of them seem to intimate . But certainly , if they thought Conscience to be nothing else but a mans own mind , or opinion , or perswasion , or practical Judgment ( which certainly it is , and no more ) they could not either in reason or modesty think fit that this should have such a paramount Authority as to bear all down before it , at least they could not imagine that their peculiar phancy or humour , their particular Education or Idiopathy , their ignorance or stubbornness , should be lawless and uncontroulable . For if mens opinions or perswasions are infallible , what is instruction for ? if the light within be sufficient , what is the light of holy Scripture for ? if Conscience be a guide to it self , to what purpose are spiritual Guides provided by divine wisdom for our conduct ? and if that may not be restrained in its extravagancy , wherefore were Laws made , and Magistrates appointed ? So that either this wild notion of the power of Conscience must be false , or else Instruction and Education are useless , Magistracy and Ministry impertinent , and both Laws and Scripture of no effect . And if notwithstanding this notion be imbraced , it is plainly impossible , that such men should live either holily or comfortably . Not holily , because Conscience thus left alone to it self , without guide or rule , will in all likelihood follow mens temper and inclination , and then a mans most beloved Lusts shall be the dictate of his Conscience . Not comfortably , because he that is destitute of a Law , and a guide to resolve him in difficulties , must needs ( if he consider and be sensible of any thing at all ) be perplexed with perpetual disputes , and endless scrupulosity upon every undertaking . But it will be pretended that there is no help for it , but when all is done , men must and will follow their own Consciences ; forasmuch as Discourse , or Laws , or Scripture , signify nothing till they are applied by Conscience ; they indeed may give aim , or may be of the nature of evidence in a Cause ; but it is Conscience which collects the result , and he that complies not with that , is guilty of sin , whether the Evidence was well summed up or no. To this purpose some passages of Scripture are usually misapplied : e. g. Let a man be perswaded in his own mind , Rom. 14. 5. That which is not of Faith is sin , Rom. 14. 23. and he that doubteth is damn'd , &c. I do confess here is something of truth in this Plea , but blended with a great deal of errour , and here I verily believe lies the rise or occasion of the perswasion of the extravagant authority of Conscience . But when we consider wisely , the truth is no more but this , that a mans Conscience ought to go along with him in the acts of his Obedience to the Law , or that he ought to be perswaded the thing is lawful to be done before he does it , otherwise he doth violence to himself , and condemns his own act . But it doth not follow , that therefore it is lawful to do whatsoever he is perswaded of in his Conscience , or that it is not his duty to do any thing but what he is so perswaded of ; for this abrogates all the Laws both of God and Man , and makes their Legislations to depend upon private consent . If therefore any man through ignorance or prejudice , or any such cause , shall have his Conscience alienated from the Law , or dictating otherwise to him ; this as it cannot make a Law , so neither can it discharge him from the obligation of one . All that this works , is , that it puts a man into so sad a case that he may sin both ways , that is , both in obeying and in disobeying ; but because he is brought into this strait by his own default , it is evident this cannot acquit his Conscience ; for one sin is no discharge for another . That therefore which he hath now to do , is first to inform his Conscience better , and then to comply with the rule . And that this is the true state of this Case , will appear ( beyond all exception ) by the resolution of our Saviour himself in two passages of the Gospel ; the former Matt. 6. 23. if the light that is in thee be darkness , how great is that darkness ! Where first he supposes that the principles of a mans mind or Conscience may be very false and erroneous , and then pronounces , that he that is in such a Case is in a very deplorable condition ; forasmuch as the errour of his Conscience will be sure to run him upon miscarriages of life , and the priviledge of its being his Conscience will not exempt him from the consequences of so doing . The other passage is Joh. 16. 2. where he foretels his Disciples that they should fall into so unhappy times , and lie under such prejudices & misprisons with the World , that those that killed them , should think they did God good service . Now those that think they do good service , and perform a meritorious action in such a thing , most certainly follow their Consciences in so doing , and yet it is as certain , that this did not justify the fact ; for then the Persecutors of Christianity and Murderers of the Apostles , must have been a very conscientious and commendable sort of men : wherefore it is evident , that Conscience is no rule nor sufficient warranty for our actions . 6. In the sixth place let him who hath thoughts of attaining the happiness of the World to come , take care of entertaining an opinion of the impossibility of Religion according to the measures of the holy Scripture . This is a common prejudice upon the minds of ignorant or cowardly people , for they phansy that a life according to the Laws of the Gospel , is rather a fine speculation , or a philosophical Hypothesis , than a necessary and practicable truth . They confess it would be a very good and commendable thing , if we could comply with the rules of our Saviour , but they look upon it as impossible , and so of no indispensable obligation . For they say , our natures are so corrupted by our fall , and thereby our faculties are so weak and impaired , that we are indeed nothing but infirmity on the one side ; and on the other , we are so beset with temptations , and the World , the Flesh and the Devil , are so much too strong for us , that we must sin , there is no avoiding of it , and God must pardon , and there 's an end of the business . Now if such an opinion as this possess a man , it will prove impossible that ever he should live holily . For if natural corruption have not infeebled us sufficiently , this cowardly conceit will be sure to do it effectually . For no man ( in this case especially ) is ever better than his design , nor rises higher than his aim or projection ( no more than water rises above its Fountain ) nay , it is a thousand to one , but he that sets his mark low , will fall yet lower in his prosecution ; and he that is cowed and dejected in his own mind , so as to think he shall never overcome the difficulties before him , most certainly never will or can do it . He only is like to prove a good Christian , that resolves with the true-hearted Israelites to despise difficulty and danger , and to conquer the good Land , whatsoever it cost him ; for such a man unites his strength , collects his Forces , and disheartens his Enemies as well as defies their opposition ; but the despondent cowardly Person , both infeebles himself and incourages his Enemies ; so that he can neither attempt , nor much less effect , any brave thing . And the same conceit of impossibility will as certainly render our Spirits uncomfortable as remiss ; because after all the pretence a man can make for his cowardice and remissness , he cannot but observe the strain of the whole Scripture to be against him ; and surely that man cannot enjoy himself very well under those attainments , which God and his own Conscience condemn as mean and unworthy . But after all , the ground of this opinion is as false as it is mischievous ; for in the first place , the holy Scripture assures us of some persons , and particularly of Zachary and Elizabeth , Luk. 1. 6. That they walked in all the commandments of the Lord blameless , and were both righteous before God , and yet they were the Children of the same Adam , and exposed to all the temptations , ill examples , and difficulties with other men . Besides , the aforesaid opinion , under a pretence of modesty , and an humble acknowledgment of humane weakness , reflects very dishonourably both upon the wisdom and goodness of God , when it imputes to the great Law-giver of the World , such over-sight and severity , as to prescribe such Laws as were not fitted to the capacities of those that were to be subject to them , and to be judged by them ; unto which adde , that it puts an intolerable slight upon the power of Faith , and ( which is more ) upon the very grace of God also , as if neither of them could carry us through all the difficulties we should be exposed to . Upon all which considerations ( and several such other which need not here be mentioned ) this opinion of the impossibility of Religion appears to be very bad , and such as ought by all means to be avoided by him that would lead an holy and comfortable Life . 7. And yet there is another opinion , which is both as common and as dangerous as any of the former ; against which therefore I will give caution in the seventh and last place , viz. when though perhaps Religion shall not be universally pronounced to be impossible , yet it shall be thought to be only the peculiar business , or especially to belong to some certain sorts or conditions of men , but not to be the general calling , the necessary and indispensable duty of all men . Under this pretence , serious and constant devotion is looked upon as appropriate to the Cloyster , where men live retired from the World , and are thought to have nothing else to do ; or to be the imployment of Churchmen , whose peculiar Profession it is ; or for old and Bed-ridden persons , who are fit for nothing else , but a Prayer-Book ; or at least for men fallen into adversity , who have no other thing to retire to , and to suppor themselves withal , but the contemplations of another World. But for men of callings and business , or for those that are in the flower of youth , and warmth of blood , in health and prosperity , these are thought to have allowances due to them , at least for the present , and the more solemn consideration of Religion must be adjourned to another time . If in the mean while such as these go to Church , and perhaps now and then say their Prayers , it is as much as is to be expected ; for their business is pretended to be too great , or their temptations and avocations too many , or at least their spirits are too light and brisk to permit them to be strictly devotional , or to make Religion their business . Thus men make vain Apologies , but doth God Almighty allow of them , hath he made any such exceptions or distinctions ? no certainly , he hath made Religion every mans duty , and hath charged us first to seek the Kingdom of God and his righteousness ; he hath equally imposed this task upon Prince and Peasant , Clergy and Laity , rich and poor , Master and Servant , young and old , the afflicted and the prosperous , the man of business as well as those of leisure and retirement . He that hath an absolute soveraignty over the World , that hath right to our homage and attendance , that hath laid infinite obligations upon us to love and obey him ; he that hath considered and forecast all our circumstances , businesses , difficulties , temptations and excuses ; he that observes our carriage and behaviour towards himself , he that cannot be deceived , will not be mocked , and is no accepter of persons : He , I say , hath made no such exceptions or exemptions in this great concern of Religion ; and therefore they cannot be mentioned without great unreasonableness , nor relied upon without horrible danger . If indeed Eternity were the peculiar concern of a certain sort and condition of men only ; or if old men only died , and none else ; or if rich men can be contented that only poor men shall go to Heaven , then the other sorts of men may excuse themselves from devotion : but otherwise it is the greatest absurdity that can be to hope for the end without the means . What though old men must dy , yet will not young men quickly come to be , old men too , at least if they do not die first ? And what if men of retired lives have more leisure for Devotion , and more time to spend in it , yet is any man so hard put to it , but that he may ( if he will ) spare some time for his Soul and Eternity ? What if it be acknowledged that Churchmen have peculiar obligations upon them to recommend Religion to others , yet it is certain , that the necessity of practising it , is common to others with themselves ; forasmuch as there is no duty of it peculiar to them , unless it be to be exemplary in all . It is true , poor men , and men in adversity , are justly accusable of intolerable sottishness , if they who are frown'd upon by the World , do not seek to repair their unhappiness by the favour of God and the hopes of another World. But it is as true , that rich men and those in prosperity , are as justly to be upbraided with disingenuity , and base ingratitude , if they be not devout towards him that hath dealt so bountifully with them . Besides all this , there is no calling or condition of men , but under it they may ( if they have a heart to it ) very affectionately attend upon Religion , consistently enough with all other lawful business or occasions . Almighty Wisdom hath not so ill contrived the state of this World , that there should be any necessity that business should supplant Religion , or Religion intrench upon business ; nor if things be rightly considered , are these two kind of affairs so contrary , or doth Devotion take up so much time , or so much exhaust mens spirits , but with a good zeal and a little forecast , both may be carried on together . Or if it were otherwise , and that the care of our Souls would indeed weary our Bodies , or the securing of Heaven would disorder , and a little incommode our secular interests ; yet neither is Life so certain , nor the present World so considerable , nor Heaven so mean and contemptible an interest , as that a man should not be willing to put himself to some trouble for the latter as well as for the former . And as there wants not reason for this course , so neither are Examples wanting in this kind , where men that might have made such excuses , as aforesaid ( as justly as any persons whatsoever ) have notwithstanding quitted and disdained them all , and applied themselves remarkably to the service of God and Devotion . For if riches , and the variety of Worldly cares and business which usually attend them , were a just excuse from attendance upon Religion , then Job might have claimed exemption , who was the richest man in all the East , and yet the devoutest too . His thousands of Sheep , and Oxen , and Camels , his abundance of Servants , his numerous Family , and the care of all these , did not tempt him to the intermission of one dayes Devotion . If either the temptations and pleasures of Youth , or the voluptuousness of a Court , or the multitude of Examples of prophaneness , or the cares of a prime Minister of State , or the jealousies of a Favourite , could all together have amounted to a just dispensation from the strictness of Religion : then Daniel who was in all those circumstances might have pleaded it , and upon that account might have retrencht his Conscience , and intermitted his praying three times a day , especially when he knew his Enemies , watcht advantage against him in this particular . If the general licence of Souldiers , the temptations such men are exposed to , the necessities they often are prest with , or the sudden avocations they must be subject to , could make a tolerable apology for profaneness , or an excuse for Irreligion , then Cornelius , Acts 10. had been excused from praying to God continually , and serving the Lord with all his house . Nay , lastly , if either the state and grandeur , or the Prerogative of a Soveraign Prince , if the impunity of a King , or the glory and affluence of a Kingdom ; nay , if either interest of State , or weight of affairs , the Cares and Policies of Government , had been all together sufficient to make a dispensation from the strict obligations of Religion , then David might have pretended to it , in abatement of his duty to God , and of his constant and ardent Devotions . But all these holy men considered , that God was a great Majesty , not to be trifled with , and an impartial Judge , without respect of persons , that Eternity was of more consequence than the present Life , and Heaven better than this World ; and they were so far from thinking an Eternal Interest to be inconsistent with the management of temporal affairs , that contrarywise they believed there was no such effectual way to succeed in the latter as by a diligent prosecution of the former . But as for those who being convinced of the absolute necessity of Religion , and of the inexcusableness of a total and final omission of it , would notwithstanding make it to be only the business of old Age , or a Sickbed ; these ( although by the folly and sloth of men , they have too many followers in their opinion , yet certainly ) are the most absurd and inexcusable of all . Forasmuch as in order to the making such an Hypothesis passable with their own Consciences , they must not only suppose several very uncertain things , which no wise man can have the confidence or rather madness to presume upon ; but the very supposition it self implies divers other things so base and disingenuous , as no good man can be guilty of . First , they make very bold and desperate suppositions , as for Example , that they shall live to old Age , and die by a leisurely and lingring sickness . That God will then accept of mens return and repentance ( who never stopt in their carriere of sin and the World , till Death arrested them . ) That God will give them repentance what time they prefix to him , or that they can repent when they will. That they shall be fit for the most weighty affairs when they are at the last gasp , and the most important of all business can be transacted when their strength and spirits are exhausted . And to say no more , that it is fit and tolerable for a man to leave that to be last discharged , which if any accident prevent him in , he is everlastingly ruined . All these things must be taken for granted by him that shall venture to put off the business of his Soul to the last act of his Life , every one of which are at the best uncertain , and for the most part false , and therefore to build upon them is extream presumption . Secondly , If the foundation of such a course were not rotten and unsafe , yet that which is built upon it is base and dis-ingenuous ; for the man who upon any considerations whatsoever can content himself to put off the things wherein Gods Honour and his Souls Welfare are concerned to the very last , proclaims he hath an unreasonable love and admiration of this World , for the sake of which he postpones Religion , and that he hath no real kindness for , or good opinion of the ways of God , in that he puts the care of that business as far off , as possibly he can ; and indeed that he would not mind God or his Soul at all , if it were not for mere necessity and fear of damnation . Now whether this then can be a reasonable course , or he be a Candidate of the Kingdom of Heaven that governs himself by these measures , it is too easy to judge . Wherefore let the man who hath entertained any principles of Religion , and hath any value for his Soul , and care of Eternity , utterly abominate and avoid this last named , as well as all the forementioned prejudices or opinions . And having so done , let him then attend to the more positive and direct advices in the following Chapter . CHAP. VIII . Directions for an effectual prosecution of Religion . HE that is resolved to be a Christian in earnest , will find it necessary ( in the prosecution of his design ) to attend to the six following Directions . 1. Let such a man be sure always to keep himself strictly sober , by which I mean , not only that he avoid the extremity of a debauch , but that he indulge not himself so liberal an use of Wine and strong Drink , as that he shall come too near the confines of intemperance , especially in the general habit of his Life ; or that he take care that through facility or carelesness he comply not with the too common practice in this particular . Forasmuch as it is evident , that the approving a mans self to God , and the taking care of Eternity , are such weighty and important affairs , that they must needs require the greatest composure of thoughts , and the utmost intention of our minds ; and can neither be worthily taken in hand , nor much less pursued as they ought , in such a light and jolly humour as the custom of tipling doth ordinarily put men into ; for that relaxes a mans thoughts , and fills his spirit with froth and levity ; it renders the mind of a man so airy and trifling , that he becomes transported with a jest , and diverted by every impertinence ; it banishes sollicitude , and puts him besides his guard of caution and circumspection ; a mans head in such a case is impatient of weighty considerations , incapable of grave deliberations ; his thoughts are fluctuating and uncertain , he comes to no stable resolution , nor can he make any constant progress ; and surely such a temper cannot make a fit soil for Religion to take root in , or to thrive upon . Besides , intemperance doth not only disturb the reason of the mind , but also weakens and depresses it , and exalts phancy in the room of it ; which fills a man with wild , loose , and incoherent Ideas : And which is still worse , it raises the brutal passions also , both irascible and concupiscible , and thereby makes work for repentance and mortification ; which must needs become a very hard task to perform , when the same causes which have made it necessary , have therewithal impaired those powers that should accomplish it ; and therefore this course is utterly inconsistent with a design of Religion . Moreover , besides the evil of intemperance it self , it exposes a man to a thousand temptations , and puts him at the very mercy of the Devil , forasmuch as he that is under the power of drink , is not only out of Gods keeping , but out of his own also ; he hath quenched Gods Spirit whilest he inflamed his own , he hath deprived himself of Gods Providence by going out of his way , and he is not perfectly in possession of his own mind , and therefore surely is in a dangerous condition . To which adde , that whereas sobriety and watchfulness use always to be accounted inseparable Companions ; it is apparent , that he who neglects the former , can never be able to maintain the latter ; and consequently the intemperate man cannot be fit for Prayer and Meditation , and other great exercises of Piety . Upon all which accounts our Saviour S. Luke 21. 34. charges those that will be his Disciples to take heed to themselves , lest at any time their hearts be over-charged with surfeiting and drunkenness , &c. 2. In the second place , let the man who designs to prosecute Religion effectually , take care of intemperance of mind , as well as of that of the body ; and with equal heed , avoid intoxication by wild opinions , as he would do a surfeit of meats and drinks . The Prophet Isaiah complains of the people of the Jews , Isai . 29. 9. That they were drunken but not with Wine , they staggered but not with strong drink ; and the Apostle exhorts men to be sober minded : so that it seems there is a kind of spiritual drunkenness , which disguises mens minds as much as the other brutal custom disorders their outward person . Of this there are a great many instances , but two most remarkable , viz. opiniatre and scrupulosity : I mean by the former , when men have no setled judgment in Religion , but allow themselves an endless inquisitiveness in matters of opinion , and are always hunting after novelty : By the other I understand a captious or squeamish humour of Conscience , under which men perpetually vex both themselves and others with unreasonable fears and jealousies . As for the former of these , it is notoriously the humour of some men to be always doubting , disputing , and gazing after new light , as if all mankind had been imposed upon till now , and the old way were not the good way , but every new invention , or upstart notion contained some admirable mystery in it ; therefore they think it necessary to try all things before they can hold fast that which is best , and indeed surfeit on the forbidden Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil , as if it were the same with the Tree of Life . And if perhaps they fall not into any of those dangerous opinions which I gave caution against in the former Chapter , yet it is by chance if they do not ; for they having no judgment of discern the difference of things , no ballast to poise and settle them , are driven up and down with every wind of Doctrine ; they are of the opinion of the last Book they read , or the last man they discoursed with , for always the newest and freshest opinion is the best ; and so ( as they say of the Chameleon ) they take their colour from the next object . This temper is a mighty disparagement to divine truth , for it looks as if there were no certain way of satisfaction to the minds of men , but that they must always seek and never find , and endlesly dispute but could never come to a resolution : and it is so intolerable an impediment of the life and practice of Religion , that it is many times more harmless to be setled in some bad opinions , than to be thus unsetled , and to dispute every thing . For besides that this course draws off the spirits of men , and spends their best heat upon unprofitable notions , and so takes them off from studying their own hearts , examining their Consciences , and diligent attendance to their ways and actions ; it raises passion , nourishes pride , foments divisions , and in a word , turns Christianity into vain Janglings . Whereas a truly sober Christian is readier to believe than to dispute in divine things , and more careful to practise old rules than to devise new models ; he studies the Scripture sincerely , not for objections but for resolution ; he lives up to what he knows , and prays God to direct him where he is uncertain ; and so is led by the Divine Grace in a plain path towards Heaven . The Novellist or great Disputer contrariwise , being unresolved of his way , makes no hast in his Journey , and cannot very earnestly practise any thing to day , because he cannot tell what opinion he shall be of to morrow . And then for the other instance of intemperance of mind , namely scrupulosity . When men have such headstrong and ungovernable , or such shy and squeamish Consciences , that they boggle at every thing which doth not just fit their peculiar phancy and humour , though they can give no reasonable account of their jealousy or aversation , but only they dislike and are offended with such and such ( indifferent ) things , they know not why , their Conscience takes check at them , and there is no more to be said in the Case . Now such as these can by no means be reputed sober men , who ( like as we say of Drunkards ) see double , and consequently fear where no fear is , or who are terrified by their own idle phancies , their brains being clouded and darkened by the crude steams of riot and excess . This temper however in some cases it may be pitiable , is notwithstanding very mischievous , not only as it disturbs the Peace of the Church and of Mankind , by rendering those who are under the power of it , busy and pragmatical , censorious and uncharitable towards all that are not just of their own mode and size , but ( which is far worse ) it misrepresents the Divine Majesty , as if he were a captious Deity , who watched mens haltings , to take advantage against them , as having more mind to damn than to save them . By which means it discourages men from Religion , as if it were the most anxious and uncomfortable thing in the World ; and consequently of all this , it extreamly hinders proficiency in virtue ; for he that is always jealous of his way , will often make halts , or have a very uncomfortable progress . On the other side , he that is likely to make a good Christian , satisfies himself of the Divine Goodness and Candour in interpreting the actions of his Creatures , and being conscious of his own sincerity , in following closely the rule of the Scripture , where it is plain , thinks himself at liberty where that is silent , and takes the direction of his Spiritual Guides where it is obscure , and then goes chearfully and vigorously on his way towards Heaven . 3. Next to regard of Sobriety both of body and mind , let the man who designs the other World , take heed that the present World grow not too much upon him , and distract or over-burden him in his Journey towards Heaven : and the diligence and circumspection in this point ought to be the greater , in regard this World is placed near us , and therefore is apt to seem great to our sight , and the other ( though incomparably greater ) being at a distance from us , is apt to seem little and contemptible . Besides , it is the chief aim of the Devil to make the present World seem much more beautiful and valuable than it is , that by its blandishments he may soften us , by its allurements debauch us , or at least by the care and concerns of it distract us and take off our edge to better things . It is certain also , that he whose affections are eagerly ingaged upon secular interests , can never be ingenuous and free enough to have a right understanding of the true and real difference of things , nor conscientious enough to stand by that truth which he understands ; for he can never be steady in any principles , but must turn with every Tide , and sail with every Wind , as it shall make for his purpose : Besides , it is plain , that our Souls are too narrow to hold much of this World , and yet to afford room for any great share of Heaven together with it . Therefore our Saviour hath said , ye cannot serve God and Mammon , and accordingly in his first Sermon on the Mount , Matt. 6. 24 , 25 , 26. to the intent that his Doctrine of the Kingdom of Heaven might take place in the hearts of his Disciples and hearers , he very emphatically and largely cautions them against admiration of the World , and too eager pursuit of it . And in the aforementioned passage , Luk. 21. v. 34. to his admonition against over-charging themselves with surfeiting and drunkenness , he subjoins the cares of this life , intimating , that those two kinds of Vices ( as opposite as they may seem to each other ) agree in their malignant influence upon Religion : neither indeed are they so contrary in their natures as they seem to be ; for as Drunkenness is nothing but a liquid Covetousness , so on the other side , Covetousness is a kind of dry thirst or drunken insatiable humour ; and it is so much the more dangerous and incurable than the other , as it is the less infamous , merely because it doth not presently discover it self by such odd and ridiculous symptomes as the other doth . To avoid this therefore , let the man we speak of , consider constantly with himself the shortness and uncertainty of the present life , by which he will easily be apprehensive of how much more consequence it is to provide for Eternity , than for that little abode we are to make in that state wherein the things of this World are of any use to us . Let him also observe the success of things , and he will easily conclude , that much more of our prosperity is owing to the providence of God , than to our own forecast and indeavours ; and consequently , that it is a better provision for our Children and Posterity , to leave them under the blessing of God , than in great possessions . And in consequence of these perswasions , he will not be tempted to grasp too much business , so as to hinder him in devotion , but will rather consider his own strength , viz. how much care and labour he can undergo , without depression of his Spirit , or debasing his mind ; and will weigh the dangers and temptations of the World against the pleasures and all urements of riches . This will also incline him prudently to methodize his affairs , and to put that business which seems necessary , into the best order , that so it may take its due place in subordination to his greater concerns , and not supplant or interfere with them . To which purpose also , if he have any considerable matters to dispose of , he will think it convenient to set his House in order as well as his business , and have always his Will made , not only , that thereby he may be the more effectually admonished of his mortality , and be provided against the surprizal of Death , but that in the mean time he may have the less sollicitude upon his spirit , and may the more singly and undistractedly apply himself to his main business . And then 4. In the fourth place let him attend to the counsel of Jesus the Son of Syrach , Ecclus. 2. 1. My Son , if thou come to serve the Lord , prepare thy soul for temptation , that is , as if he had said , Whensoever thou undertakest a course of Religion , be not so fond as to imagine thou shalt be able to accomplish it without sweat and difficulty , or so secure as to think of obtaining the Crown without a conflict , but expect to meet with temptations of several kinds , and arm thy self accordingly ; especially in thy first entrance on such a course , thou must look for the sharpest encounters , for thy Enemies are not so soon vanquisht as defied , nor are they either so fair and civil as to give thee scope to harden and fortify thy self in thy enterprize , or so imprudent as to slip the opportunity of thy weakness and security together . Beginnings in all such cases are attended with the greatest hazards and difficulties . The Devil rages most at first , out of indignation to suffer the prey to be taken out of his mouth , whereas when he is past hopes of recovering it , he hath more wit than to labour in vain , and will not so much trouble himself to tempt when he sees no likelihood of success , but he is more resolute than quickly to despair or give over his siege upon the first denial of his Summons . No he will storm and batter thee night and day , and cast in all his bombs and fiery darts to affright and compel thee to a surrender . And for the flesh it is certain , that the first checks which are given to sensual inclinations , are harshest , and go most against the grain , because they have used to take their full scope and swinge ; indeed when a man hath accustomed them to denial in their importunities , they by degrees and in time grow tame , and submit to the yoke of reason , as fire is extinguish'd by being supprest , or as a violent torrent that is turned into a new Chanel , and restrained its antient course , at first rages , and foams and swells against those new banks , though at length it ceases its tumult , and runs along quietly within its boundaries . It is not one overthrow will dishearten the old man , he must be baffled and vanquisht over and over before he will cease to rebel , nor must you think to find virtue easy till you have accustomed your self to it ; for nothing but custom can intirely subdue custom , wherefore ( till that is introduced ) you must never be secure but always upon your guard . And then as for the World , the first rejection of that out of a mans heart is performed with as great difficulty as any of the former ; when a man hath once cast over-board that luggage which otherwise was likely to have sunk him , it 's possible he may be glad of the exchange , and despise what before he admired ; but it is a great matter to be convinced of the necessity of unburdening the Vessel , and a long dispute before men are willing to lose any thing for Heaven . It requires a great sagacity to see the empty Pageantry of the World , so as to slight fame , applause , riches , ease and pleasure ; a hard piece of self-denial to abridge himself of the liberty other men take ; a great mastery of a mans self to be deaf to all the charms , and insensible of all the caresses of the World , and in a word , to keep a mans Eyes and thoughts steadily fixed upon another life . Therefore there is great reason that a man should count upon difficulty in the undertaking of Religion , lest when it comes upon him unforeseen , he turn recreant , and come off with shame and loss . Besides all this there is something more which ( I apprehend ) the Wise man intended in the aforesaid advice , namely , that he that resolves to be a virtuous man , must fortify his mind , as well against the perswasions , examples , and discouragements of his less considerate Friends and acquaintance , as against the bitter scoffs and reproaches of his Enemies , that neither the insensible insinuations of the one dissolve him into lukewarmness and remissness , nor the rough attacks of the other sink his spirits , and shake his resolution . Opposition from each of these he must expect to meet with : from the former , out of folly , or else in their own defence , that such a man's zeal may not reproach their negligence ; from the other , out of malice and as assailants , that they may reak their spight upon God and his holy ways ; and therefore he ought to be provided for both . Against the soft insinuations of injudicious persons , he must be provided , by being girt about with truth , and have on the breastplate of righteousness , as the Apostle advises , Eph. 6. 14. that is , he must establish his heart in an undoubted belief of the truth on his side , by considering the authority of God , the Example of our Saviour , and other holy men , and hence be able to render a reason of the hope that is in him with meekness and fear ; and if this do not ease him of their fond importunities , he must then put on some degree of morosity , and resolve with David , 2 Sam. 6. 22. that if this be to be vile , he will yet be more vile . Against the rude treatments of lewd and malicious men , he must as the same Apostle advises , Eph. 6. 16 , 17. take the shield of faith , whereby he shall repel all the fiery darts of the wicked , and for an helmet the hope of salvation ; and in contemplation of the Objects of both those , he will be able generously to contemn all obloquy and reproach , as disdaining to be hectored out of Salvation . In a word , for altogether he must always remember , that self-denial is the first Lesson of Christianity , and that he that hath not so learnt it , as to take up his Cross and follow Christ , cannot be his Disciple . 5. In the fifth place , let the Candidate of the Kingdom of Heaven take care that he do not precipitate himself into temptation ; for as on the one side we ought to behave our selves stoutly and bravely , when it pleases God to lay it upon us , so on the other side , ought we to be as cautious and timorous of drawing it upon our selves ; the first of which is seldom separate from the last ; for he that knows how to encounter a danger , will not ordinarily thrust himself into it ; and usually those who are so stupid and fool-hardy , as to run themselves into difficulties , shew as little courage and conduct in conflicting with them , as they did discretion in the adventure upon them ; and no wonder , seeing in such a case they put themselves out of Gods protection , trusting to themselves , and then they cannot in reason expect other than to be deserted by his grace in such unwarrantalbe enterprizes . Let the piously disposed man therefore not be so fond as to try experiments upon himself , lest he buy his knowledge of his own weakness at the cost of too great an hazard . Let him not go too near sin , in confidence that he can divide by an hair , and come off clever enough . For instance , let him not nibble at an Oath , nor mince the matter of profaneness , nor drink to the highest pitch of sobriety , nor go to the utmost extremity of justice in his dealings ; for he knows not the deceitfulness of his own heart , nor considers the slippery ground he stands upon , that will thus venture to the very brink of his liberty . Nor let him provoke Enemies to himself by intemperate zeal , as if a good man should not meet with opposition enough without his own procuring , nor the World had malice enough unless he inflamed and exasperated it ; especially , let him not thrust himself into lewd Company , in confidence of his own integrity and stability : for he hath no sufficient apprehension of the power and malice of the Devil , who by any of the aforesaid imprudences tempts him to tempt himself ; nay , nor doth he seem to hate and abominate sin so absolutely as he ought to do , that loves the Vicinage and Neighbourhood of it . What the wise man therefore advises , Prov. 5. 8. concerning the whorish woman , is very applicable to this Case , Remove thy way far from her , and come not near the door of her house ; and so also he saith of flagitious men , chap. 4. 14 , 15. Enter not into the path of the wicked , and go not in the way of evil men , avoid it , pass not by it , turn from it , and pass away ; for he that goes ordinarily to the brink of a Precipice , is in great danger sometime or other to fall in , and he that nibbles at the bait , will one time or other be taken with the hook . 6. Sixthly and lastly , as a discreet man , and concerned for Eternal Life , ought not to be over-daring and confident in his approaches towards sin and danger , so neither ought he on the other hand to be timorous and strait-laced in things eminently and unquestionably good ; whether it be in instances of devotion towards God , or of self-denial and mortification of himself , or in acts of Charity towards others ; for in all these , there is such a scope and latitude , as that a brave and noble spirit of Christianity , may and will distinguish it self from a narrow and stingy temper in the discharge of them . For Example , such a man as we speak of , neither will nor ought to confine his Devotions to such strict and precise measures , as that he that falls short of them will be guilty of an omission of his duty ; but will contrarywise find in his heart to spend something more than ordinary of his time in Prayers and Meditation , and such other acts of immediate worship . He will not stick to apply somewhat more than the just tenth or tythe of his increase , to the incouragement of Religion ; nor will he grudge to deny himself , upon weighty occasions , some of that pleasure which at other times he can allow himself without sin : or if occasion be , he will give alms , not only out of the superfluity of his estate , but to the utmost of his ability , perhaps beyond his convenience ; for these things though ( generally considered ) they are not matters of express duty , yet do they not cease to be good , merely because they are not commanded , so long as the species and kind of them is commanded ; and besides , such extraordinary expressions of obedience to a general command , are very fit to demonstrate our love to God , our gratitude for his unspeakable bounty towards us , and our value of the Kingdom of Heaven , seeing that by such instances especially , we shew , that we love the Lord our God with all our heart , and soul , and strength ; and that we think nothing too dear for the assuring our selves of Eternal Life . And though it would not be expresly a sin to omit any one of the instances of the several kinds aforesaid , yet it must be a palpable argument of a narrow heart towards God , to yield no such instances at all , and cannot but proceed from very culpable superstition to be afraid of so doing ; nay more , for a man to be barren of such fruits , and careless of such performances , is a great point of folly and imprudence towards our selves , in respect of the comfort which our hearts might receive by such generosity ; for although by no after act of ours ( how excellent soever ) it be possible for us , to make any proper amends to the Divine Majesty , for our former offences and omissions , yet by such expressions as these ( we speak of ) we shew our selves sensible of those miscarriages , and that we are under remorse for them , and we give proof , that we truly love God , though we have offended him , and desire to obtain his favour by the most costly oblations . Upon all which accounts it seems very adviseable , that he who sets his Face towards Heaven , should indeavour to open and inlarge his heart this way , and not suffer himself to be cramped and contracted by any odd opinions to the contrary . Whereas therefore some men seem to fansie a frugal way of Religion , and accordingly inquire for the minimum quod sic ( as we say ) or the lowest degree of saving grace , as if Heaven and Hell were divided by an hair , and they would be at the trouble of no more piety than would just carry them out of danger ; They are to be admonished that they seek after impossibilities and contradictions ; for it is in truth as if they should say , they would have fire without heat , Religion without Devotion , Piety without Affection , Holiness without Zeal , or that they desire to fear God , but have no inclination to love him . To speak plainly , the lowest degree of goodness is never sought after but in an ill temper of mind , and by a cowardly and hypocritical heart , nor can it be found with comfort ; for the essence of grace is no more discoverable without the fruits , than a body without its accidents ; and therefore there are but two ways of obtaining true comfort in our Souls , viz. either by our daily proficiency , or by our extraordinary fervency . First , By daily proficiency we discover the life of grace in our hearts , as we discern a plant to be alive because we see it grows . Secondly , By extraordinary fervency , as when perhaps a man hath not had time to give proof of himself by a long course of growing daily better and better , he may yet demonstrate a vital principle of good in his Soul , by such generous efforts of zeal as we have been speaking of ; in consideration of which , it is therefore not only sordid and ingrateful towards God , but very uncomfortable to our selves to inquire for the mere essence of grace , and to stand upon strict and precise terms of duty . But perhaps these men think a pretence of modesty will countenance them against any imputation of cowardize or hypocrisy , for they will say they are contented with the lowest seat in Heaven , and so they may arrive at that state , they are ambitious of no more . Silly men ! as if it were a culpable ambition to indeavour to be very good ! as if supreme happiness could be modestly or remisly desired ! or that he either understood or truly desir'd Heaven , who would modestly complement , others to enter before him ! No , no ; the chiefest good is desirable for it self , and the natural manner of desiring it , is to do it without measure and bounds , and it is impossible it should be otherwise ; he therefore that hath these modest desires of Heaven , is either a stark hypocrite , or hath no true notion of that state at all . Besides , if it were or could be possible for a man to be modest and good in this sense , I mean to love Heaven but moderately , and yet to comethere , notwithstanding it could not be without great folly and danger , for a man to set himself too low a mark in so high a concern ; for ( as I observed before ) we see it is almost constant with men to shoot below their aim , and nothing more ordinary than for their practice to fall short of their speculations ; and therefore every man that would not miscarry in his design , takes care to direct himself high enough ; accordingly in this great affair of Religion , he that yields to such a faint-hearted temper , under the notion of modesty , will not only never be very good , but scarcely ever be tolerable or good at all ; for if his projections be mean , his performances will be worse , in regard the deceitfulness of his own heart , the reluctancy of the flesh , and the temptations of the Devil , will be sure to get some ground upon him ; and when abatements are made for all such disadvantages , what a pittiful dwarfish sanctity will this over modesty arrive to at last ? But yet after all this , some perhaps will be found so silly as to think , or so disingenuous as to pretend to a suspicion , at least , that such extraordinary works as we have been now recommending , may savour of merit or supererogation ; very likely , if any man could be so absurd as to attribute any such thing to them ; but surely he that takes his measures of things from the holy Scripture , will be in little danger of such a gross mistake , especially whilest we are expresly told by our Saviour , that when we have done all that we can , we are still but unprofitable servants ; for can a mortal man oblige his Maker ? can infinite perfection become a Debtor to Dust and Ashes ? But forasmuch as God requires and deserves that we should love him with all our Soul , and heart , and strength ; it is impossible we should love him too much , but great danger we should love him too little : it cannot therefore choose but be the wisest and safest course to incline to the side of God Almighty , and to favour his interest against the sensuality , deadness and deceitfulness of our own hearts . O but ( may some man say ) will it not at least be will-worship to affect uncommanded instances of love to God and zeal of his glory ? I answer , it is possible that such a thing may be , if these things be done with neglect of those expressions of love and zeal which God hath particularly appointed ; for this looks as if a man pretended to be wiser than God himself , and so would undertake to choose for him , what he should be pleased with . But now , if neither his appointments in special be superseded by these voluntary performances , nor these voluntary performances be unagreeable to those standing and general rules he hath given us , there can be no danger that divine goodness should ill interpret them , especially since there can be no imaginable reason why he that was pleased with a free-will-offering under the Law , should be offended with the like under the Gospel ; where above all things he requires a free , chearful , generous and reasonable service . Wherefore let the man who really believes there will be rewards of well-doing in another World , and is resolved to obtain them , be always ready to every good work , and chearfully imbrace the opportunity wherein he may perform a costly or a difficult service ; and let him take care that no tradition of men , nor superstitious conceit of his own head , neither the example of other mens careless lives , nor the too natural remissness of his own heart , prevail upon him to neglect such instances , whereby the glory of God may be most advanced , and his own Comfort assured . PART II. THE PRACTICE OF Holy and Comfortable LIVING . Jer. 6. 16. Thus saith the Lord , stand ye in the ways , and see , and ask for the old paths , where is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall find rest for your souls . THE PRACTICE OF Holy and Comfortable LIVING . CHAP. I. Of secret Devotion , between God and a Man 's own Soul , and particularly of Prayer . HItherto in the former part of this little Book , we principally designed these four things , First , To discover the foundations of Religion in general , and from thence to demonstrate the reality , importance and necessity of it . Secondly , To settle mens judgments and determine them in the choice of their profession of Religion in particular . Thirdly , To give caution against certain common but dangerous mistakes , which might otherwise undermine and disappoint the ends and purposes of Religion . Fourthly and lastly , To lay down some general directions necessary to be premised in order to the effectual prosecution of a religious design , and all this we comprized under the title of An Introduction . But now we come to build upon those foundations , and more particularly and plainly to draw out the lines of an holy and comfortable Life . Here therefore it may seem expedient that we should in the first place consider the extent and whole compass of Religion , to the intent that it may not be taken for such a narrow and stingy thing as the generality of men represent it , namely to shew , that it is not a mere scuffle about opinion , nor a canting with peculiar phrases , neither a clubbing into a distinct party under the notion of a Church or select Society , nor yet the formal acting of a part with the observance of abundance of nice Rites , Ceremonies and Punctilio's ; that it is not a thing which looks beautifully , and promises fairly in publick , but is forgotten or laid aside at home , nor is it immured in a Closet , and never sufferd to take the air in Conversation ; to say no more , that it is not mere morality , nor mere devotion , but both these in Conjunction , together with all that is brave and noble , and wise and good ; all that can better the minds and tempers , and lives of men , and all that can improve the state of the World ; all this is within the Verge of Religion , especially the Christian Religion . For so the Apostle intimates , Phil. 4. 8. Finally Brethren , whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are honest , ( or grave ) , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are pure , whatsoever things are lovely ( or friendly ) , whatsoever things are of good report , if there be any virtue , and if there be any praise , think of these things , i. e. Count them branches of Christianity , for true Religion is nothing less , nothing , I mean of no narrower extent than a wise and worthy conduct and manage of a mans self in all those Relations we stand in , namely towards God , our Neighbour , and our selves . This I take to be the true notion and the just Province of Religion , but I can neither think it possible to handle all the parts of so vast a subject in this short Treatise , nor indeed do I apprehend the discoursing of them all to be equally necessary to those for whose use I principally intend these Papers . Therefore omitting ( but not excluding ) all other branches of Religion , I will here only speak of these three things . First , Of secret Devotion , or those acts of Piety which are transacted only between Almighty God and a Mans own Soul. Secondly , Of private Piety , or the exercises of Religion in every particular Family . Thirdly , Of the more publick acts of Religion , and concerning a mans governing himself so as to consult the honour and service of God in the Parish wherein he lives . I begin with the first , viz. of secret or Closet Devotion . That this is an essential branch of true Religion , and a necessary and universal duty , appears by the command of our Saviour , Mat. 6. 6. When thou prayest , enter into thy Closet , and when thou hast shut the door , pray to thy father who is in secret , &c. in which words it is not our Saviours meaning to forbid or put a slight upon all but Closet Devotion ; for he himself frequently prayed publickly and taught his Disciples so to do ; nor though he speak of a Closet , doth he intend to confine this duty to the strict formalities of a Closet , but that it may be done in the Fields , or in any recess or place of secrecy whatsoever , as he himself practised ; nor lastly , though he use the word Prayer only , doth he make that strictly taken to be the whole office of secret Piety ; for it is usual in the Scripture , and in common speech also , to express all the acts of immediate worship by the name of Prayer , whether they be Praises , or Adorations , or Confessions , or Thanksgiving , or Meditation or Self-Examination ; all therefore which our Saviour here intended , was to represent the necessity of secret Devotion as well as publick , and to press that upon his Disciples which the hypocrisy and ostentation of the Pharisees had laid aside , because in truth they sought not Gods glory but their own . And this is further recommended to us by the universal practice of all good men in all Ages and Countries of the World , and of whatsoever opinion or perswasion otherwise . There have perhaps been those who under some pretence or other have neglected Family worship , and those also who have been abased by some scruples into an omission of publick worship ; but I verily think that none but flat Atheists , or gross Hypocrites ( which are much the same thing ) could ever dispense with themselves in the common and habitual neglect of secret worship ; for a man cannot believe there is a God , or much less have any worthy apprehensions of him , but it naturally puts him upon some act or other of adoration towards him . Acts of publick worship are to the Soul as exercise is to the Body , it may live and subsist , though not long and healthfully without it ; but secret Devotion is like the motion of the heart and lungs , without which a man is presently choaked up and destroy'd ; if his heart do not move towards God , and as it were by circulation return in praises , all those benefits which it continually receives from him , it is stifled by repletion ; and if by Prayer he do not breathe out his griefs , and as it were ventilate his spirits , he is strangled by his own melancholy : for the publick performance of religious offices cannot make a supply in these Cases , because every man hath his secret sins to confess to God , which it is ordinarily unsafe to make other men privy to , and his peculiar infirmities and temptations , his griefs and burdens , which it is in vain to lay open to men , seeing only God can relieve them ; and every man hath received sundry personal mercies and savours from the hands of God , in answer of his Prayers , which require a personal acknowledgment to the Divine Goodness . And the opening of a mans heart in any of these Cases is commonly attended with such affections and passionate expressions , as would be indecent to the Eyes of men , though they are very becoming towards God , in respect of which last thing , we find , 1 Sam. 1. 13. Hannah was thought to be drunk , by the holy and wise man Eli the Priest , when yet , as the truth appear'd afterwards , he saw in her only the devout symptoms of a sorrowful Spirit . Besides , these acts of secret worship are very necessary in order to publick worship , both as they dispose and fit a mans heart for it before he enters upon it , by composing the thoughts and raising the affections ; and as they make application of it afterwards , pressing home upon the Conscience , the instructions there received , and improving and confirming into a stable resolution , those good affections and inclinations which were stirred up by it ; insomuch , that that man will either have no mind to Gods publick service , or no suitable temper in it , or be little the better after it , that hath not first fitted and prepared his heart for it by secret Devotion . And herein lies the true reason , as well of the lamentable unprofitableness as of the common irreverence of publick performances ; because men rush into Gods House without the due Preface of secret preparation , and they turn their backs upon God when they depart from the Church , never attending to , or improving those good motions which the spirit of God had kindled in them . Moreover , these devout offices of Religion , though they are by no means to supplant and supersede the publick ( as we have intimated already , and shall demonstrate at large by and by ) yet in some respects they are more acceptable to God than the other ; forasmuch as they are founded upon an acknowledgment of his Omniscience , and demonstrate the great and intimate sense we have of the Divine Majesty , and consequently of this they give the greatest assurance to our own hearts , of our sincerity , and so are the most comfortable : for publick Devotion may possibly have a great alloy of secular interest , and may owe it self in a great measure to the authority of Laws , or to publick fame and reputation ; but he that worships God in secret , where and when no Eye is privy but only that of God Almighty , is secure to himself , that he can have no mean or sinister end in so doing , nothing can move him to this but the mere reverence of God , and therefore our Saviour in the forementioned passage , Mat. 6. 6. lays an Emphasis upon those words , thy father which is in secret , and adds this incouragement of such addresses to God , thy father which seeth in secret will reward thee openly . Upon all which considerations let the man who either values Gods glory , or his own improvement , Peace and Comfort , or indeed who makes any pretence to Religion , strictly make Conscience of , and constantly practise secret Devotion . The nature , extent , manner , instances and circumstances whereof , I am now further to explain in the following particulars . 1. And I begin with that which is so universally acknowledged , and so principal a part of Divine Worship , that ( as I noted before ) it is ordinarily put for the whole , I mean Prayer to God , touching the secret exercise whereof , let the good Christian take these following Directions . First , Let him not fail Night and Morning ( at least ) solemnly and devoutly to pray to God : Divers holy men we read of , who according to the greatness of their zeal , or urgency of the occasion for it , have prescribed to themselves stricter measures than this ; particularly , David saith he would worship God seven times in a day , and Daniels custom was to do it three times a day , Dan. 6. 10. as seems also to have been that of the Primitive Christians ; but less than twice a day I cannot find to agree with the practice of any good men , unless either sickness disabled them , or some very extraordinary occasion diverted them : and it is wondrously fit and decorous , that we , who owe our whole time to God , should pay him the tribute of devoting those critical periods of it ( I mean Evening and Morning ) to him , especially in consideration of the peculiar circumstances these two points of time are attended with , namely in the Evening , having finished the course of that day , and reflecting upon our infirmities in it , we cannot but observe by how many failings we have justly incurred Gods displeasure , if he should severely animadvert upon us ; and therefore have great cause to deprecate his anger , and to make our peace with him : and we must needs also be sensible both how many dangers we have escaped , by his Providence , and how many instances of blessing we have received from his goodness , and therefore have reason to praise and magnify his name ; nd especially being then also to betake our selves to sleep , when above all times we are out of our own keeping , and are exposed to a thousand dangers from thieves , from malicious men , from violent Elements of Wind , Fire and Water , from the enterprizes of evil spirits , and frightful Dreams , and our own foolish Imaginations , in which and sundry other respects , no man knows what a night may bring forth , and in consideration of which , he is a stupidly secure , and fool-hardy person , that doth not think it highly to be his interest , by peculiar addresses , to recommend himself and all his concerns to the watchful Eye of Providence , which neither slumbers nor sleeps . And in the Morning , having not only by the guard of holy Angels been preserved from all those dangers which might have surprized us in the dark , and when our senses were so lockt up that we could not help our selves , but refreshed and recruited in all our powers by that admirable divine Opiate , sleep ; nothing less can become us than to consecrate anew all these restored powers to our Creator and Preserver , by hearty Adorations . Besides this , we are then sensible that we are now entring upon a new scene of business , where we shall be exposed to innumerable accidents , dangers , difficulties , and temptations , none of which we are match for without divine assistance , and have therefore need to implore his grace and good providence before we encounter them , so that it is not timidity or superstitious fear , but just wisdom not to dare either to go to Bed , or to set our foot out of doors , till we have recommended our selves to Almighty God by Prayer . And by so doing ( as aforesaid ) we maintain the juge sacrificium , and ( in Gods gracious interpretation are said to ) pray continually , and to consecrate our whole time to him ; and besides , we keep up a lively and constant sense of him upon our hearts . Secondly , Let him be sure that these duties be done fervently as well as constantly and frequently , not formally and customarily , without life and feeling of what a man is about , or with wandring thoughts and distracted affections , but with the greatest vigour and intention of mind that is possible ; for if a mans heart be flat and remiss in these special approaches to God , he will be sure to be much worse , and even loose and Atheistical upon other occasions ; for these secret duties are the special instruments and exercises of raising our hearts towards Heaven , and as it were the nicking up of our Watch to that cue in which we would have it go . In the more publick offices of Religion the credit and reputation of it is principally concerned , and therefore they ought to be performed with all gravity and solemnity , but the very life and soul of piety lies in these secret duties , and therefore they ought to be discharged with the quickest sense and most inflamed affections ; insomuch that a man must not think he hath acquitted himself when he hath repeated such , or so many Prayers , until he find also his heart warmed , and his temper of mind raised and improved by them ; to this purpose therefore , let him in the entrance upon these retirements place himself under the Eye of God , and be apprehensive of the immediate presence of the Divine Majesty , that this may give check to all levity of spirit and wandering of thoughts , and make him grave and reverential ; let him also all along be sensible of the great value and necessity of those things which he either begs of God , or returns thanks for ; that this may render him ardent in his desires , and affectionate in his praises , and whilest he perseveres in these duties , let him join with them , reading and meditation , not only to fix his mind , but to prevent barrenness , and to impreganate and inrich his Souls with divine notions and affections . To this end , Thirdly , Let him take care that he tempt not himself to flatness by an affected length of these holy duties ; for though it be a sign of an indevout temper to be too compendious and concise in them , as if we grudged the time spent in Gods Service ; and although it be also irreverent towards God to be so short and abrupt , as if we briefly dictated to him what we would have done ; yet it is to be guilty of the same fault , to be impertinently tedious with him , as if he could not understand us without many words , or would be wrought upon by tedious importunity . Besides all this , it is to be considered , that often , when the spirit is willing , the flesh is weak , and that our bodies cannot always correspond with our minds : now in such a case to affect the prolonging of our Devotions , is to lose in the intention what we get in the extension of them ; for it will be sure either to make us go unwillingly to our duty , or to perform it very superficially ; in either of which circumstances it is not likely we should be pleasing to God , or be able to make any comfortable reflections afterwards upon such performance . The measures of Devotion therefore are not expresly prescribed by God , but are to be determined by a prudent respect to the peculiar constitution of the person , the condition of his affairs , and the extraordinariness of the occasion ; and to go about to exceed these bounds , is an argument of intemperate zeal , which is never acceptable to God , and is so far injurious to a mans self , that it manifestly hinders what it pretends to promote . To these I add , Fourthly , Let not the devout man be very curious or sollicitious about the from or expressions of his secret duties ; I mean , whether his Prayers be read out of a Book , or be the present conceptions of his own mind , so long as they are offered up from an understanding Soul , and an humble and affectionate heart , for these are all the things that God looks at , and wherein his honour is directly concerned ; and therefore as he hath no value for eloquence of speech on the one hand , so neither hath he for strength of memory , or for pregnancy and variety of phancy on the other ; but only ( as I said ) that we worship him with our understanding , and do not like Parrots , utter words whereof we have no sense or notion ; that we bring an humble and contrite spirit , as sensible of the infinite distance between him and us , and an heart seriously affected with his presence and the nature and value of the things we are conversant about . It is true , that a composed form is most sutable to publick worship , where ( as I noted before ) the dignity and credit of Religion is concern'd , and that perhaps in private duties , our present conceptions may most please and affect our selves ; but our acceptance with God ( especially in these secret duties ) depends neither upon the one nor the other , but upon those inward dispositions of the Soul aforesaid . Wherefore let no man cheat himself into an opinion that those heats of phancy or transports of affection which sometimes happen in conceived Prayer , are instances of real and extraordinary devotion ; or that because the use of a form or Book may perhaps be destitute of such flights , therefore those duties are dead and formal : forasmuch as those services may be most acceptable to God which are less pleasant to our selves ; since it is not those sudden flashes but a constant and even servour of piety which he hath regard to . And this leads me to another advice , namely , Fifthly , Let the pious man think himself obliged to pray without ceasing , and that he is never to lay aside or intermit the regular course of a daily devotion upon any pretence whatsoever , but especially not upon the absurd pretext of awaiting the motion of the spirit ; for although it be true , that the Spirit of God ceases not to move men to their duty , the way of the Spirit of God is not to move sensibly , and to make violent impressions upon us ; and therefore he that suspends the performance of his duty till he is so jogged and stirred up to it , will never pray at all : and indeed what reason can there be to expect such a thing , or what need of it in the case of a known duty ? if it were the will of God to put us upon some extraordinary service , then it were reasonable to expect some special mandate or impulse upon our spirits from him , which might both warrant the enterprize , and quicken us in the prosecution ; but in ordinary duties , the motion of the holy spirit in the Scripture , is and ought to be sufficient , and he that will not be stirred up by that , doth but pretend to wait for a spirit in excuse of his own Atheism , Unbelief , or intolerable slothfulness ; and in so doing lays himself open to an evil spirit , whose design it is to check and withdraw men from Religion , and this is matter of sad and common experience , that from waiting for the motion of the spirit , men very usually grow first to frequent omissions , then to carelessness of their duty , and at last to a total neglect of it . Therefore let not any man slight a regular and methodical Devotion , as a meer formal and customary thing , since this is the very attainment of Piety , when that which is matter of duty becomes also in a good sense customary and habitual ; and he that out of such a temper performs the duties of Religion constantly and reverently , gives far greater proof of sincere Christianity , than he that seems to himself to do them with greater heat and transport , but needs from time to time to be jogged and provoked to the performance . Sixthly , To all these I adde in the last place , that it is very advisable , though not absolutely necessary , that in these secret Devotions , a man should ( where it may be done with privacy , and without oftentation or such other impediment ) pray vocally and audibly ; for although God knows our hearts , and observes all our thoughts , and the motions of our affections before we express them , and therefore needs not that we should interpret our minds to him by words , yet it is fit we should imploy all the powers and capacities we have in his service ; our Bodies as well as our Souls , and our Lips as well as our hearts . Besides , though we cannot affect God with the tone and accents of our Speech , yet we often times affect our own hearts the more , and raise them a note higher in concord with the elevation of our Voices : but that which I principally intend is this , viz. by the harmony of our tongue and voice , our hearts are as it were charmed into the greater composure and intention upon that we are about . And so whereas it is the usual complaint , especially of melancholy and thoughtful persons , that their hearts are apt to rove and wander in these secret duties of Religion , by this means we have it very much in our power to keep them from extravagancy , and at once to make our Devotions the less tedious to our selves , and the more acceptable to God. CHAP. II. Of several other instances of secret Devotion . THough Prayer be the most general duty of Religion , the common instrument of all Piety , and the most immediate address to God ; yet it is a great mistake to make it the only instance of secret Devotion , for there are several others of great moment , amongst which I reckon in the next place , 2. Study and Meditation ; not only to direct and assist our Prayers ( of which I said something before ) but especially to cultivate and improve our own minds , that we may be wiser , and consequently both more capable of doing God better service in this World , and also fitter for the Society of Angels and the Conversation of the spirits of just men made perfect in the other World. For we are to consider , that God Almighty hath set a mighty value upon our Souls , in redeeming them by no less a price than the blood of his only Son ; and therefore we should be intolerably ingrateful towards him , if we bestow no cost upon them , but live as if we were mere matter and body , and take care only to please and gratify our senses , and in the mean time abandon our minds to folly and ignorance , to sloth and superstition . We are to consider also , that the same infinite goodness hath by the same purchace deliver'd us from the fear of Eternal Death , which otherwise would have kept us in perpetual bondage , and so have contracted our spirits , and rendered our very selves so inconsiderable to our selves , that no man could have had the heart to take any care of himself , but would be tempted to have lived like a beast because he expected to die like one , or worse ; but now that we are made to hope for immortality , and to live for ever and ever , there is great reason a man should spare no cost , no labour and pains about himself , since he may reap the fruit and enjoy the comfort of so doing in the better enjoyment of himself a thousand Ages hence , and to all Eternity . Moreover the same Divine Goodness hath designed us to a glorious estate of happiness in his own Kingdom of Heaven , a state of intellectual pleasure , and the most sublimed ingredients of felicity , which a dull , sottish , and sensual Soul can never be capable of perceiving , if he were placed in the midst of them , and therefore he is more than brutish that doth not dispose himself so , that he may be meet , to partake of that inheritance with the Saints in light . To all this we are to consider , that the general apostafy of mankind hath weaken'd our natures , clouded our understanding , and disorder'd all our powers ; and together herewith the foolish opinions and traditions of the World have abused and deceived us yet more and more , so that we must be most silly and unhappy Creatures , if we do not indeavour to deliver and disingage our selves from both these Calamities . And the case is not totally irreparable in respect of either of these mischiefs , if we be not wanting to our selves ; for to the intent that we might in some measure recover our selves , it hath pleased God to give us time to consider in privacy and retirement from the noise of the World , that we may recollect our selves ; he hath set before us his works and providence to meditate upon , we have his holy Scriptures to inlighten our minds , and guide us out of the perplexed state of things we enjoy , the publick ministry and abundance of good Books to help us to understand those Scriptures , and above all we are assured of the assistances of his holy spirit against the weakness and confusion of our own understandings . So that as there is great reason and great necessity that we should apply our selves to study and meditation ; so we have as great incouragement to hope for success in so doing : for by application of our selves to the means aforesaid , we may not only rid our selves of that wildness and ferity which is ordinarily upon our natures , but outgrow vulgar opinion and tradition , and come to be able to make a true estimate of things set before us ; we may greaten our spirits so as to despise those little things which silly men dote upon ; we may free our minds of childish fears and unaccountable superstitions ; we may understand the true reason of Religion , the loveliness of virtue , and in a word , have worthier notions of God , and clearer apprehensions of the World to come . And although it be acknowledged that all men are not alike capable of these improvements , either by reason of the weakness of their minds , or the unhappy constitution of their bodies , or the perplexed condition of their outward affairs ; yet certainly God Almighty hath by the means aforesaid put it into every mans power to be wiser than he is if he would but apply himself to the use of them , and therefore let the devout man be sure to make the experiment . To further him the more wherein , let him to all the considerations foregoing adde these two following . First , That forasmuch as he was made in Gods Image , it is no less than a contempt of the Divine Majesty to have no regard to the cultivating and adorning that part of himself wherein he especially resembles his Maker ; and consequently it will appear to him to be a very fit and proper instance of worship towards God to improve his own Soul ; and therefore it is here justly placed amongst the expressions of Devotion . Secondly , Let him consider , that the great game of Eternity is but once to be plaid , and that there is no retrieving of our neglects and carelessness afterwards ; therefore there is all the reason in the World that we should play it intently and warily : my meaning is , that therefore we ought to redeem time from folly and sensuality , and apply it to the advantage of our Souls ; and he that doth so , and begs Gods blessing upon it , will undoubtedly find his mind inlarged , his life more regular , and his spirit more comfortable , which are all the chief ends of Devotion . 3. The next instance of secret Devotion ( for I am not curious in what order I place them ) shall be the exercise of Faith in God and dependance upon him , in pursuance of an acknowledgment that he alone governs the World , and the framing a mans heart to take notice of him , to have recourse to him , and stay it self upon him in all exigencies , and accidents and passages whatsoever , that he may impute nothing to chance , fate or the stars , but possess himself with a deep and setled apprehension of the great interest of God in all revolutions or occurrences . This is a point of great and real honour to the Divine Majesty , as it sets God always before us , and places him continually in our Eye , as it brings us to an intire resignation of our selves to his dispose and puts us into a constant gravity and a reverence towards him , as it provokes us to address our selves to him upon all occasions , to pray to him , to trust in him , to walk humbly and thankfully before him . And it is of mighty advantage to our selves , as it strengthens and fortifies our weak spirits by the contemplation of that mighty providence we are under , and that we are protected by a wise , and good , and powerful Being , whom nothing can be too hard for , and who is liable to no surprize or mistake , as it assures us , that nothing befals without him , and therefore every thing is ordained for wise ends , and shall be turned to good in the conclusion ; this also inables us to be contented in every condition , secure against all fears , and to arrive at such an evenness of spirit , that we shall not be tost with every accident , hurried by every emergency , but possess our selves in patience and tranquility . And consequently this must needs be a very worthy entertainment of our retirements , and such as deserves and requires the application of our minds to it , that we may be under the power of this perswasion , and be able to answer to our selves the atheistical objections against it , to give some account of the intricacy and obscure passages of Providence , without ( some skill in ) which it will be very difficult , if not impossible , to walk either piously or comfortably ; but by this exercise we hold continual conversation with God , we live and walk with him , he is always at hand to us , to awe us , to support and comfort us , and our hearts become not only a Temple where we solemnly offer up our services at set times to him , but an Altar where the holy fire never goes out , but sends up constantly the sweet odours of Prayers and Praises to him . 4. Another exercise of secret Devotion is to premeditate our conversation , and so to forecast the occurrences of life , that we may conduct our selves both with safety to our Souls , and to the best advantage of our spiritual interests ; forasmuch as he that lives ex tempore ( as we say ) and unpremeditately , will neither be able to avoid the dangers which will be sure to encounter him , nor to improve the opportunities which may offer themselves to him . In our converse in this World we must expect temptations from the Devil , allurements from sensual objects , provocations from the folly or malice of evil men , vexations by unhappy accidents , and above all abundance of evil examples to debauch and corrupt us ; and that man will most certainly be surprized by some or all of these , that doth not forecast them : and arm himself against them , and therefore a wise man will not adventure to go abroad and take in the infectious air of the World , till he hath antidoted himself against the danger , by the advantages of retirement , and the secret exercises of Devotion . To this purpose he will before he goes out of his Closet , not only consider the common Calamities of the World , the reigning sins of the Age , but the especial difficulties of his calling and profession , and the peculiar infirmities of his own temper ; and withal will forethink and prepare himself against such efforts as by reason of any of these may be made upon him . If he can foresee that he shall unavoidably fall into evil Company , he will first indeavour to warm and affect his heart with the quicker sense of Religion , that he may not only take no hurt himself , but ( if it be possible ) imprint some sense of good upon those he converses with . If any thing be likely to happen that will strike him with melancholy , he will first go to God by Prayer for strength and constancy of mind , and indeavour to fix his heart so intently upon another World , as that the occurrences of this may not discompose him . If he be likely to meet with that which may provoke him to anger , he will compose himself to as great a coolness as possibly he can , that no passage may inflame him . If any allurement to sensuality present it self , he will consider how he may retreat into grave Company , or earnest business , that so he may decline that which is not easily to be withstood . And on the other side concerning opportunities of doing or receiving good ; forasmuch as every wise man is sensible that the seasons of things are no more in his power than the time of his life is , that no enterprize succeeds well which is not nicked with a fit season , and that it is impossible to recal it when it is slipped by ; therefore the pious man will forethink what may offer themselves probably in such circumstances as he stands in , lest he should overlook them when they present , and so he lose an advantage of doing glory to God , or good to men , and of promoting the interest of his own Soul , and accordingly will dispose his heart in secret to apprehend them , and to improve them ; he examines his capacity , and stirs up his attention , and projects the means , either how he may reap some benefit by good and wise Company , or how he may seasonably interpose a word on Gods behalf in common Conversation , or how he may do some good thing that will turn to account another day . 5. But if either by the neglect of such opportunities as aforesaid , the pious man omit the doing of some good he might have done , or by security of conversation he fall into any of those dangers he ought to have watcht against , then there is a fifth great work for private Devotion , for in this case there lies a double care upon him ; first , that he slight not his danger , and secondly , that he despair not of remedy , but be both deeply sensible of his miscarriage , and also rise again with indignation and resolution . First , That he slight not his fault ( as generally men do by the plea of Example , or the pretence of humane infirmity ) and so harden himself in his sin , but feel a deep remorse , and conceive a mighty displeasure against himself for it . Secondly , That on the other side he aggravate not his guilt to such a degree as to preclude repentance by despairing of the divine mercy , but presently flee to the grace of the Gospel , and implore Gods Pardon , with setled purposes never to offend in the like kind again . Now neither of these are done as they ought to be , but in retirement , viz. when a man hath opportunity of dealing impartially between God and his own Soul , and therefore ( especially because the occasions of them often happen ) are justly reckonable as a part of Closet Devotion , and accordingly they are represented by the holy Psalmist , Psal . 4. 4. Stand in awe and sin not , commune with your own hearts in your chamber , and be still , &c. Wherefore let every man that hath any sense of God upon him be throughly perswaded to set some time apart for this purpose , that he may romage his own heart , and find out all the evils of his life ; and when he hath discovered any particular guilt upon his Soul , let him not forsake his Closet , and depart out of Gods presence till he have affected himself with deep sorrow and contrition for his sin , and prostrated himself at the throne of grace with strong and earnest cries for pardon , and until he have confirmed his heart in a resolution of watchfulness and more strict obedience for the time to come . And let him do this often , that he may not run up too big a score , and so either his heart become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin , or his Conscience be so affrighted with the greatness of his guilt , that like a Bankrupt he be tempted to decline looking into his accounts , because he can have no comfortable prospect of them , or run away from God in a fit of desperation , instead of running to him by repentance . Let him , I say , do this often , not by chance or unwillingly , but frequently and periodically ( set times being appointed for it ) and though I would be loth to impose a burden upon the Consciences of men , yet I think it ordinarily very adviseable , that this be done once a month , viz. whilest a man hath his past actions and carriage in remembrance , and can take a just account of himself ; but especially it is very fit to do it against the time of the administration of the Holy Sacrament , and then would be extraordinarily proper and seasonable : for these two things , Self-examination and partaking of the Lords Supper , do marvellously suit and answer to each other ; the former preparing a mans heart for that sacred solemnity , and that holy solemnity sealing to him the pardon of those sins he hath discovered and repented of in secret . But whether this work of self-reflection and ransacking a mans own heart in secret be absolutely necessary to be done at certain times and periods , it is wonderfully useful , that it be seriously and conscientiously practised some time or other ; forasmuch as on the one side it is not conceivable how a man should be able to maintain an holy and comfortable Life without it ; so on the other hand it seems equally impossible that he should continue to be an evil man who habitually and sincerely practises it : for as there is no way so effectual to preserve an estate from being squandred away extravagantly , as the keeping constant and strict accounts of receits and expences , so there is no method more powerful to restrain sin than this of self-examination ; the very searching into our hearts jogs and awakens Conscience , and that being rowsed , will be a faithful Monitor of all that was done amiss , the mere prospect of which will make a man very uneasy , by the fears and horrors that attend it ; the consideration of the silly motives upon which a man was induced to sin , will fill him with ingenuous shame and indignation , and the easiness ( which he cannot but find ) of withstanding such motions , by the grace of God will provoke him to a resolution of amendment ; in a word , the sight and knowledge of the Disease is a great step to the Cure , and an heart well searched is half healed . But this leads me to another instance of great affinity with what we have now been speaking of , and which shall be the last excercise of secret Devotion which I will here make mention of , viz. 6. Trial of our proficiency and growth in grace , this is of great importance ; forasmuch as ( we have seen before ) the truth of grace is scarcely any otherway discernible but by its progress , and in that it makes men daily better and better , for the essences of things are indiscernible , and a man may endlesly dispute with himself whether such or such a thing be a sign of grace , and of spiritual life in him , till he puts all out of controversy by the fruits and improvement of such a vital principle ; and therefore it is extreamly necessary , if we will arrive at spiritual comfort , that we make experiment of our selves in this particular , which can no otherwise be done than by retirement into the Cabinet of our hearts , and the diligent comparing our selves both with our selves and with the rules of the Gospel . The common estimation of the World is a very fallacious and improper measure of divine life , and as the Apostle tells us , it is a small thing to be judged of men one way or other , but if our hearts condemn us not , then have we confidence towards God ; for they being privy to our ends and designs and to all our circumstances as well as to matter of fact , cannot nor will not deceive us , if they be secretly examined , and therefore must be impartially consulted , if we would indeed know our selves , and be able to prejudge our own condition . Now the testimony which our hearts can give us of our spiritual improvement , is not to be grounded upon the increased length of our Prayers , nor merely from the passion and earnestness of them ; for the former of these may be the effect of hypocrisy , and the latter may proceed from some peculiar temper of body or outward accident ; nor upon our affectionate hearing of Sermons , for the stony ground received the seed with joy as well as the good ground ; nor yet upon a more than ordinary scrupulosity of Conscience ( especially in smaller matters ) for this may proceed from Ignorance , Superstition or Hypocrisy . But the safest decision of this great case , whether we grow in grace or no , is to be made by examining our hearts in such points as these following , viz. Whether we be more constant in all the duties of Religion than formerly ? Whether we be more exact and regular in our lives daily ? Whether our hearts be more in Heaven than they were wont , and that we have arrived at a greater contempt of the World ? Whether we are more dead to temptation , especially in the case of such sins as agree with our constitution and circumstances ? Whether affliction be more easy than it used to be , and we can better submit to the yoke of Christ ? Whether we are more conscientious of secret sins , and such as no Eye of man can take notice of and upbraid us for ? Whether we are more sagacious in apprehending , and more careful of improving opportunities of doing good than heretofore ? In a word , Whether we are grown more meek , more humble and obedient to our Superiours , &c. If upon due inquiry , oru hearts can answer affirmatively for us in such points as these , then we may comfortably conclude , that we have not received the grace of God in vain , which being of unspeakable consequence to us to be substantially resolved of , self-examination in the aforesaid particulars ( as the only way to arrive at it ) ought to have its share in our Closet Devotions . CHAP. III. Of Family-Piety in general . THough the consideration of Gods Almighty Power , Wisdom , Goodness , and his other perfections , together with our dependance upon him , and obnoxiousness to him , be the first reason and ground of religion ( as we have already shewed ) and so the Divine Majesty is the immediate and principal object of it ; yet notwithstanding this is not so to be understood , as if the obligations of Religion extended no further than to acts of worship or address to God : for it is as much our duty to manage our selves well towards others for Gods sake , as towards him for his own sake . And therefore ( as hath been intimated heretofore ) true Piety in its just dimensions comprizes no less than a worthy discharge of our selves in all those relations Divine Providence hath placed us in . Now next to our obligations to our Creator and Preserver , and next to our concern for the better part of our selves , our own Souls , a man stands related to his Family so nearly , that he is wanting in both the former that is negligent of this . Almighty Wisdom and Goodness pronounced it not fit for man to be alone , and therefore the first provision he made against the uncomfortable state of solitude , was to enter him into the Society of a Family ; partly , that in so near a station , they might mutually relieve and help one another in difficulties , entertain one another by Discourse , and improve one anothers reason ; partly , that in this Conjunction they might fortify one anothers Spirits against all ill accidents , or the enterprizes of wicked and malicious Spirits more powerful than themselves ; but principally , that they might mutually provoke and inflame one anothers hearts to admiration , love and reverence of their great Creator . And this end is so great and the injunction of it so strict , that every man in this Society stands charged with the Soul of another , and is accountable for it , at least so far , that he cannot be excusable that doth not indeavour to bring those with whom he so intimately converses , and upon whom he hath so many opportunities , to a sense and regard of God and Religion . And this especially concerns those that are heads of Families ; forasmuch as by virtue of their place they have always been accounted , not only Kings and Governours , but also Prophets and Priests within their peculiar sphere and province . Accordingly we find it to have been the constant care and practice of all good men in all Ages , to train up those of their Families in the knowledge of the true God , and the exercises of true Religion : particularly God himself testifies of Abraham , Gen. 18 — 19. that he knew he would command his children and his houshold after him that they keep the way of the Lord , &c. And Job 1. 5. we find it to have been the continual care of that holy man to sanctify his Children and Family , and daily to intercede with God for them by Sacrifice . Deut. 6. 6. it is an express injunction upon the Children of Israel , that they not only keep the laws of God in their own hearts , but that they should teach them diligently to their Children , and talk of them when they sate in their houses , and when they walked by the way , &c. that is , that they should convey and imprint a sense of God and his Religion upon the minds of those they familiarly conversed with . And so great is the authority and influence of Governours of Families , and so powerful is good example in this particular , that Josh . 24. 15. Joshua undertakes for his Family , that they should serve the Lord , whether other people would do so or no. David often declares his zeal for the maintenance of Religion in his Family , so far , that he resolves those persons should be excluded his House that made no Conscience of God , and most remarkably , 1 Chr. 28. 9. he gives this solemn charge to his Son Solomon , Thou Solomon my Son , know thou the God of thy Father , and serve him with a perfect heart , and with a willing mind ; for the Lord searcheth all hearts , and understandeth all the imagination of the thoughts : if thou seek him he will be found of thee , but if thou forsake him he will cast thee off for ever . And for the times of the New Testament there is abundant evidence , that it was the constant practice of all those who had a sense of Religion in their hearts , to set it up in their Families also , of which the testimonies are so many , and so ready at hand , that it is needless here to recite them ; and the success was commonly answerable to the indeavour : from whence it comes to pass that Acts 10. 2. it is said of Cornelius , that he was not only a devout man and prayed to God always , but that he feared the Lord with all his house , i. e. his Example , Prayers and instruction prevailed upon all those that were under the influence of them , to bring them to ( at least ) a profession of piety also ; upon which account it is further observable , that generally when any Governour of a Family imbraced the Christian Faith , and was converted to that Religion , it is said that such an one believed and all his house , or he and all his house were baptized , namely , because truly good men did not fail by their example and endeavours to bring those over to the same Religion which themselves were heartily perswaded of , and accordingly we see it often come to pass in these times wherein we live , that several persons very heartily bless God that his providence disposed them into such or such pious Families wherein the foundation of their eternal happiness hath been laid , by the means of the instructive and exemplary devotion which they have there been under the advantages of ; upon consideration of all which reasons , examples and incouragements , and several others which might with great ease have been added , let no good Christian be of so monastick a spirit as to extend his care no farther than his own Cell , and to think he hath acquitted himself well enough when he hath discharged the offices of his Closet , and hath kept Religion glowing in his own heart ; but think it his duty to take care that his light shine quite through his House , and that his zeal warm all his Family . In order to which we will here consider these three things . First , Of the several members which usually a Family consists of , and which are concern'd in its discipline . Secondly , The several duties of piety which especially become and concern a Family . And thirdly , By what means the members of a Family may be brought to comply with all those duties . 1. First , The ordinary relations of a Family ( especially as it signifies those which dwell or converse together under the same roof ) are Husband and Wife , Parent and Children , Master and Servant , Friend and Friend ; and all these I take to be comprized in those several passages of the Acts of the Apostles , where it is said , that such a man and all his house were converted or baptized , for there are great interests of Religion which intercede between every of these ; as for the relation of Husband and Wife , as it is the nearest and strictest that can be , so consequently it is of mighty importance to their mutual comfort , and a wonderful indearment of affections , when both the relatives are animated with the same spirit of Religion , and promote the eternal interest of one another : As it is vastly mischievous and unhappy when those who are inseparably yoked together , draw divers ways , one towards Heaven , and the other towards Hell ; in respect of which danger the Apostle advises those who are free not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers , 2 Cor. 6. 14. for saith he , what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness ? what communion hath light with darkness ? what concord hath Christ with Belial ? and what part hath he that believeth , with an infidel ? Yet because it is possible , that light may prevail against darkness , therefore when such an unequal Society is contracted , he doth not think it a sufficient ground for separation ; for saith he , 1 Cor. 7. 16. What knowest thou , O Wife , but thou maist save thy Husband ? or what knowest thou , O man , whether thou shalt save thy Wife ? especially since by the piety of one of the Parents , the Children are sanctified and placed under the advantages of the Covenant of grace , as he there adds , v. 14. And seeing it is possible for one of these relatives to be so great a blessing to the other , there is mighty reason they both should endeavour it , out of self-love as well as charity and conjugal affection , since it is both very difficult to go to Heaven alone , and also equally easy and comfortable , when those in this relation join hearts and hands in the way thither . As for the relation of Parents and Children , that is also very near and intimate , and consequently their interest and happiness is bound up together ; for as it is a mighty advantage to have holy Parents , in regard the Posterity of such persons ordinarily fare the better to many Generations , as is assured in the second Commandment , and therefore there is a double obligation upon Parents to be good and virtuous , not only for the sake of their own Souls , but also for the sake of their Children ; so on the other hand , it is no less glory and comfort to Parents to have good and pious Children , and therefore they are strictly charged to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord ; and indeed he is worse than an Infidel , nay worse than a Brute , that can be content to bring them up to Hell and the Devil ; for they are part of our selves , and a man that considers any thing , can as well be willing to be damned himself , as that they should be so if he can help it . Now that there is much in their power this way , appears by that charge of the Apostle last named , as also by the observation of Solomon , Prov. 22. 6. Train up a child in the way he should go , and when he is old he will not depart from it ; for Children in their young and tender years are like Wax , yielding and pliable to whatsoever form we will put them into , but if we miss this opportunity it will be no easy matter to recover them to good afterwards , when they are debauched by evil principles , confident of their own opinions , headstrong by the uncontrouled use of liberty , and hardened by the custom of sinning . And therefore it is observable , that far the most part of good men and women are such as had the foundations of piety laid in their youth , and very few are to be found who were effectually reclaimed afterwards . But whilest Children wholly depend upon their Parents , and their natures are soft and pliant , when as yet they have not the hardiness to rebel , nor the confidence to dispute the commands of their Fathers ; so long they may by the grace of God easily be wrought upon to good , and which is very remarkable , the influence of the mother is especially considerable in this case : for so we find not only that King Lemuel , Prov. 31. 1. remembred the Lessons which his mother taught him , but as I have noted before , Timothy was seasoned with grace , by the instructions of his Mother Eunice , and his Grandmother Lois , 2 Tim. 1. 5. and many other instances there are of the successfulness of the Mothers pious indeavours . But where Parents neglect their duty , usually the Children perish , and their blood will be required at the hands of careless Parents : and which is more , there is commonly this dreadful token of divine vengeance in this World , that those who are careless of their duty both towards God , and towards their Children in this particular , feel the sad effects of it in the undutifulness , contumacy , and rebellion of those Children against themselves afterwards , as if God permitted them to revenge his quarrel . In the next place , as for the relation of Master and Servants , it is a mighty mistake to think they are meerly our slaves to do our will , and that nothing is due from us to them but what is expresly bargain'd for , since they are or ought to be Gods Servants as well as ours , and must do him service as well as us , and they are put under our protection , and placed in our Families , that they may be instructed in his pleasure , and have the liberty to serve him , of whom the whole family of heaven and earth is called . So that properly speaking , we and they are common Servants to one great Master , only in different ranks , as the one part ( after the manner of Stewards ) is allowed to have Servants under them , and the other must do the inferiour business , but still they are Gods Servants more properly than ours , and must therefore have not only ( as I said ) liberty and leisure to serve our common Master , but also instructions from us and incouragement so to do : and he that denies them any of these , might as justly deny them their . Bread or their Wages ; nay more , he that forgets to pray for them too , remembers himself but by halves , forasmuch as his interest is concerned , not only in their health and prosperity , but in their virtue and piety ; for it is evident , that the better men they are , the better Servants they will prove . So St. Paul tells Philemon in his Epistle to him , that he would be a gainer by Onesimus's Conversion , for that he would be so much a more profitable servant henceforth as he was now become a better man , such persons being not only the most faithful and trusty , but by so much the more industrious as they are the more conscientious : Besides , that it is well known that Divine Providence often blesses a Family for the sake of a pious Servant , as God blessed Labans substance for the sake of Jacob , and the House and all the affairs of Potiphar for the piety of Joseph . So that in short , he loves himself as little as he loves God , who doth not indeavour that his Servants should be sincerely religious . And though it 's true , it is not altogether in his power to make them so , or to put grace into their hearts , yet by virtue of his place and authority , he hath mighty advantages of doing them good , and will be sure to be called to account how he hath improved his Stewardship in this particular . Lastly , In a Family there are commonly some who under the general relation of Friends or Acquaintance , are either resident in it , or at least hospitably entertained by it ; now as this lays an obligation upon the persons treated , so it gives some authority to him who treats them : and consequently as such a Master of a Family is in some measure answerable towards men for the scandals and misdemeanours of his Guests ; so is he much more responsible to God for any profaneness they shall be guilty of towards his Divine Majesty . For ( as I said before ) every man being King in his own Family may give Laws to it , and oblige those who are under his protection to pay him Allegiance , and to serve and worship God with him , especially he ought to do this , because the fourth Commandment requires at our hands that we use this authority , not only over our Sons and Daughters , our Man-Servants and Maid-Servants , but over all those that are within our Gates . But so much in the general , let us now consider in the second place the particular duties of Religion in a Family ; of which in the next Chapter . CHAP. IV. Of Family Duties in special . IN the first place I look upon it as the duty of every Family , that ( besides Closet-Devotions , of which I have spoken before ; and besides publick Worship , of which I shall speak anon ) once a day at the least they join together in Prayers to God. I say once a day at the least , in favour of mens occasions , and the peculiar circumstances of some Families , were it not for which , it would be very fit that there should be Prayers Morning and Evening , as is the general practice of most pious Families ; but certainly it is wonderfully decent , that all the members of every Family should once in the day meet together , and with one heart and one mouth glorify God and pay their homage to the great Master of the whole Family of Heaven and Earth ; and it is very strange , if any excuse should be pleaded or admitted in this case . For as I said before , every several Family is a peculiar Body or Society , which hath its distinct circumstances , effects and consideration ; it hath its respective needs to be supplied , and therefore hath occasion to make proper and peculiar requests to God , as that he will be pleased to continue it in health , to settle concord and unity amongst the several members of it , that the whole may enjoy prosperity and safety from Thieves , from Fire and other dangers . And every such Society hath also proper and peculiar mercies to give thanks to God for , as namely for success in affairs , for quiet habitation , that they are not molested with ill Neighbours , nor vexed with Law-Suits , for hopeful Children , faithful Servants , &c. for in several of these respects a man may be well and comfortable in his own person , and yet be unhappy in the Society ; and contrarywise the Society or Family may be happy in the general , and yet a particular person may be in ill circumstances : and therefore there is just reason of addresses and acknowledgments to God in relation to the Family , and by the whole Family in Conjunction , as well as by every single person apart , and in his Closet . And though perhaps there may be some Family wherein there is no person who can aptly and properly represent the peculiar concerns of it to the Almighty , and it may be also there is no form of Prayer at hand that will express all the respective circumstances of such a Society ; yet they may lift up their hearts and voices together in a general form , and supply with their thoughts and affections whatsoever is wanting in the expressions . And as there is just ground and reason for such family worship , so there is good cause to expect it will be singularly successful , when the whole community joins together , and present themselves and their tribute of praise before the Lord : no question but the very manner of doing it , as well as the matter , will be highly acceptable to him ; and when with prostrate bodies , devout hearts and hands , and eyes lift up to Heaven , they combine together to importune , and as it were , besiege the Almighty , they cannot fail of a blessing ; or however it is a mighty satisfaction to the minds of all such persons , and a great security to them that they have thus jointly and solemnly commended themselves to the divine protection . Besides , that this course is an effectual means to conciliate peace and love and kindness , between all the members of this body , and to knit their hearts to one another , when they are thus accustomed to unite their hearts and join their hands in Gods service , and conspire to pray with and for each other , which is the greatest indearment of affection . Perhaps some man will now say , there is no express Scripture which requires of men this daily office of Family Prayer : To which I answer , first , what if it were so , yet nevertheless it is a duty , seeing there is so apparent reason for it . For God who considered , that he gave Laws to reasonable men , did not think himself bound to prescribe every thing in particular , especially in natural worship , where the reason of man might supply him with direction what was fit to be done in such a case . Besides , secondly , ( as I discoursed in the former part of this Treatise ) it is a stingy and narrow-soul'd trick , and an argument of no true love to God and goodness , to stand upon so strict terms in our piety , as to require an express command in particular , for that which is admirably good in the general , and hath also been the general practice of all good men , as this hath been . But after all , I would in the last place crave leave to ask those men a plain question , who insist upon more express proof of Family Prayers , and it is no more but this , Whether they think there is any such thing as publick worship required of men ? if they do , then let them remember there was a time when there was no more publick Society than that of Families , namely at the first planting of the World , and then either publick worship must be this of Families or none at all ; and to inlighten them in this case , let them consider that passage , Gen. 4. 26. when Seth had Enos born to him , it is said , then began men to call upon the name of the Lord , that is , so soon as there began to be a Family in the pious line of Seth , then presently they set up Gods worship in it . Now this was not the beginning of secret worship , for no doubt but Seth was careful of that before Enos was born ; nor was it properly publick or Ecclesiastick worship , for in that minority of the World , there neither was nor as yet could be any Church established in such a sense : therefore it must follow that Family worship is as antient as the being of Families themselves . Or let pious and ingenious persons consider of that passage of the Gospel , Luke 11. 1. where in the first place we find our Saviour was at Prayers ; and that it was not secret Prayer but with his Disciples , is more than probable , since they were present at them : and accordingly , when he had concluded , one of them asks him to instruct them how to pray . Now if this be acknowledged , then here is our Saviours Example for what we are discoursing of , forasmuch as the Disciples with whom he was at Prayer , were his Family . But that which I observe further is , they ask him to teach them to pray , as John taught his Disciples , that is , to prescribe them a form wherein they ( who were his Family ) might join together , as the Family or Disciples of John did ; or not only to pray severally or secretly , but in Conjunction and Society : and this our Saviour gratifies them in , by prescribing to them the well-known and admirable form : in which these two things are further remarkable to this purpose ; first , that the Prayer is in the plural number , which renders it far more probable , that it was intended for a social office . For though some other account may be given of his using that number , yet nothing is so natural as this reason which I have intimated . Secondly , The very petitions themselves ( if they be considered ) will incline a man to think , that though the Prayer was contrived with infinite wisdom to fit other purposes , yet it was primarily intended for the use of a Family or Society , especially such an one as this of our Saviours Disciples was ; but so much for that . 2. The next instance of Family Duty is the sanctification of the Lords Day , and other days and times set apart for his service . As for the Lords Day , though it be undoubtedly true , that as the Jewish Sabbath ( which is our Saturday ) is not obliging to Christians at all ; so neither are we bound to observe any day with that Sabbatical nicety and strictness , which ( for special reasons ) was required of that people : yet that the first day of the Week , or the Lords Day , be observed piously and devoutly , is recommended to us by the constant practice of the Christian Church . And the sanctification of it principally consists in this , that we make it a day peculiar for the offices of Piety and Devotion , as other days are for common and secular affairs ; for though the business of Religion must be carried on every day of our lives , and that be a profane day indeed in which God hath not some share allowed for his service , yet as God hath not required that it be the whole work of those days , but after a little of the time be consecrated to him , the residue be applied to the common affairs of Life ; so on the Lords Day we are allowed to consult our infirmity , to provide for necessity , and to do works of humanity or mercy : but the proper business of the day is Religion , and to that the main of it must be applied . And there is great reason for this , namely by this interruption of the course of Worldly affairs , in some measure to take our hearts off from them ; for we should hardly avoid sinking absolutely into the cares and business of this life , if we went on in a continual course , and were not obliged at certain intervals of time to retreat from them , and betake our selves to things of another nature , by which means also , we begin to practise an Heavenly Sabbatism , and inure our selves by degrees to those spiritual imployments which we are to enter upon , and be everlastingly performing in another World. Let therefore the pious man thus sanctify the Lords Day by applying it to holy uses , that is ( besides publick worship ) to reading , Meditation , singing of Psalms , and grave Discourses of Religion , and let him according as he hath Warrant from the fourth Commandment oblige all those within his Gates to do so too , and not only restrain his Family from common labours , but from lightness and folly , tipling and gossipping , idle visits and impertinent talking of News ; and use his indeavour to ingage them to be as much in earnest about the service of God and their Souls on that day , as they are about their business or pleasure on other days . As for other holy days set apart by the appointment of the Church , there is very good use to be made of them too : for besides , that the great Festivals are the ignorant mans Gospel , and bring to his mind all the great passages of our Saviour and his Apostles , it is certain also , that God hath not so strictly tasked us to the labour of six days , as that he will not be better pleased if we now and then apply some of them to his honour , and make a sally towards Heaven ; but then the observation of these days is not to be made merely a relaxation from servile work , nor much less a dispensation for looseness and profaneness , but God must be served on them with greater diligence than can be ordinarily expected on other days . And this is another branch of the pious mans duty in his Family . 3. There is another thing I would mention in the third place , amongst Family exercises , which I do not call a necessary duty , but would offer it to consideration , whether it be not adviseable in some cases for the promotion of Family Piety , that in every Family , where it can be done , some persons should be incouraged to take notes of the Sermons which are preached in the Church , and repeat them at home ; forasmuch as this course would not only afford a very seasonable and excellent entertainment for the Family in the intervals of publick worship on the Lords Day , but would also be very advantagious , both to Minister and People . For the Minister , it would incourage him to study and to deliver weighty things , when he saw his words were not likely to perish in the hearing , and be lost in the air , but be reviewed and considered of ; by which means one Sermon would be as good as two , and might serve accordingly . For the People , it would put the most ordinary sort of them upon considering and indeavouring to remember and make something of that which is delivered to them , when they observe , that some of the ablest of the Congregation think it worth their pains to take so exact notice of it as to write it down ; at least they would be ashamed to snore and yawn , when others are so intent and serious . And as for the Family in which the repetition is made , they would have further occasion to observe , with what clearness and evidence the doctrine was inferred from the Text , opportunity to weigh the arguments used to inforce it , and be put upon making application of all to their own Consciences . But I foresee several objections ( such as they are ) will be made against this ; it will be said , this course is unfashionable and puritanical , that experience hath discovered that writing after Sermons hath taught men to be conceited and captious , and presently sets up men for Lay-Preachers ; and in a word , that repeating Sermons raised the Rebellion . But In answer to the first of these , I observe , that it is neither unusual nor under any ill character in Courts of Judicature , for men to take Notes of the reasonings , determinations , and even the opinions of the Judges ; and surely Religion is of as much moment as the municipal Laws ; and Cases of Conscience are of as great consequence as meum and tuum : but if the Discourses of Preachers be not so considerate , their reasonings not so close and weighty , nor their determinations so well grounded as to be worth noting , the more is the pity , to say no more . As for the second objection , I answer , that if the Preacher handle only the indisputable Doctrines of Christianity , and press them home and close upon the Consciences of men , these will afford little scope for conceitedness or captiousness ; but some men that are of such an humour will be pragmatical and profane , whether they write after Sermons or no , and therefore let us lay this blame where it is due . To the third objection it is answered , that though writing after Sermons might perhaps furnish men with materials for Lay-preaching ; yet it was impudence which disposed men to it , and the dissolution of Government which gave opportunity for it : and if the last of these three things be taken care of , the second will be curbed , and the first harmless and innocent . But lastly , whereas it is objected that writing and repeating of Sermons was accessary to the late Rebellion : I answer , that it is evident , it could be neither the writing nor the repeating , but the seditious matter of the Sermons that was in the fault ; for it is certain , that good and pious Sermons are the most effectual way to prevent all mischief of that kind , tending to make good Subjects as well as good Christians , and the writing and repeating of such Sermons is a means to settle such Doctrine the deeper in the hearts of men , and therefore I see not but that it would be good prudence to apply that to a good end which hath been abused to a bad one , unless we will countenance the humour of some late Reformers , whose method was to abolish things for the abuse of them . Upon the whole matter , I see no just discouragement from this instance of Family-Devotion ; however I will say no more of it , but proceed to such as are unexceptionable . 4. It is certainly a Family Duty to instruct all the young and ignorant persons in it , in the substantial Doctrines of Religion , and rules of good life . The obligation to , and the advantages of this office , have been sufficiently represented before in the foregoing Chapter ; now therefore only to speak briefly and plainly of the manner of discharging it , it comprises these following particulars . First , That care be taken betimes to subdue the unruly wills and passions of Children ; which is ordinarily not very hard to do if it be minded time enough , whilest they are tender and pliable , but the defect herein ( like an errour in the first Concoction ) is hardly remediable afterwards : accordingly the wise man adviseth , Prov. 19. 18. Chasten thy Son whilest there is hope , and let not thy Soul spare for his crying : By breaking his stomach now , we prevent the breaking of our own hearts hereafter ; for by this means with the blessing of God upon it , we shall have comfort in a Child , and the State and publick Society , a governable Subject ; whereas contrariwise stubborness and malapertness in youth grows to contemptuousness of Parents , & to faction and sedition in the State , in age . In pursuance of this , Secondly , Let them learn and be accustomed humbly to beg the blessing of their Parents and Progenitors ; this ( as meanly as some inconsiderate people think of it ) is of mighty use : for it not only teaches Children to reverence their Parents , but wonderfully provokes and inflames the affections of Parents towards them ; and besides this , it is the usual method of conveying the blessings of God upon them : for though it be only God that bestows the blessing , yet his way is to use the intervention and designation of Parents , and generally those whom they bless ( in this case ) are blessed , and those whom they curse are cursed . Thirdly , Then let them learn to read , to pray , and especially to say their Catechise ; for though these things are not throughly understood by them now , yet they will stick by them , and be remembred when they are more capable of improving them : insomuch that it will be uneasy to one that hath been well principled in his minority , to be impious and profane hereafter ; or if he should prove so , there will yet be some hopes of reclaiming him , because these things will some time or other revive and awaken his Conscience . Fourthly , after this , let them be brought to the Bishop , that he may lay his hands upon them , pray over them , bless and confirm them . For if the fervent Prayer of every righteous man avail much , as St. James tells us , undoubtedly the solemn Prayer and Benediction of Christs immediate Substitute , and the prime Officer of his Church is not inconsiderable . Besides , when men have understandingly and solemnly addicted themselves to the Christian Religion , and made it their own act by a voluntary and publick choice , it will ordinarily have a great influence upon them in modesty , honour and reputation as well as Conscience , that they shall not easily go back from it , and renounce it : and though it is too true , that many have miscarried afterwards in point of practice , yet it is very observable in experience , that few or none who have been confirmed as aforesaid , have apostatized from the profession of Christianity . Fifthly and lastly , After such foundations are laid , it is no time yet to be secure , but these beginnings must be followed with further instructions , that such persons may be brought to a savoury sense of Piety , and to understand the reasons of the Religion which they have imbraced , and so neither be debauched with Examples , nor tossed to and fro by every wind of new Doctrine ; nay further , these young persons ought to be put upon all the ingenuous learning they are capable of receiving , and we are able to afford them , for the improvement of their minds , that they be the more serviceable to God both in Church and State , by the intent prosecution of which , they will not only be kept out of the dangers which rash and unimployed youth is ready to run upon , but become an Ornament to themselves and to their Relations ; and which is more , be able to imploy and enjoy themselves in elder years , without the usual diversions of drinking and gaming , which commonly are the silly resorts and refuges of those who wanted Education in their youth . 5. There is a principal branch of Family Discipline yet remains to be taken notice of , and that is the curbing and restraining first of all profaneness and contempt of things sacred , whether it be by cursing , swearing , blaspheming , or any other impudent scurrility ; and then in the next place , of all intemperance , drunkenness and debauchery ; for such things as these do not only bring a stain and blemish , but a Curse upon the Family , and to be sure the allowance of them is utterly inconsistent with any pretence to Piety . And the care and concern for the suppressing these Vices , extends not only so far as to the restraining of it in all the constant and setled members of the Family , but also to the discountenancing of it in those that are only occasionally as Guests in it . For how can any man that loves God , indure to see him abused before his face , and not interpose for him , especially where he hath authority , namely , within his own Gates ? Shall a man pretend Piety , and make his table become a snare to his own Soul , and his House a Sanctuary and priviledged place for prophaneness ? Nor let any man think it becomes him in gentility and complaisance to take no notice of the one , or out of hospitality to indulge the other ; for he that loves God as he ought to do , and hath any measure of manly courage , will not be so sheepish , but that he will at least discountenance such indecencies within his jurisdiction . But as for those that are setled members of the Family , as Servants and Relations ; if any of them be guilty of such lewdness , I do not say , that they must presently be banished the Society : for it may be divine Providence sent them thither on purpose for their Cure , and that we might have the glory of performing so worthy a work , and those Sinners the happiness of meeting with the means of reformation ; and therefore we must when it happens so , look upon it as our duty to apply our selves in good earnest to recover them : but if after all good means used , there appear no hopes of reformation , it is certainly a good mans duty to dismiss such persons , both to avoid the scandal and the infection of them . And he that is truly conscientious of Gods honour and the spiritual interest of his Family , will not stick to Sacrifice the petty interests of an useful Servant , or a beneficial relation , thereupon . CHAP. V. Family Discipline , Or by what means the several members of a Family may be brought to conform to the aforesaid Duties . HE that resolves to maintain Piety in his Family , must do it by such a method as this . First , Let him be sure to keep up the authority which God hath given him , and not through carelessness , facility or sheepishness , level himself with those he is to govern , and suffer every body to do what is right in their own Eyes ; for then no wonder if Piety and all things else be out of order . He that abjects himself shall be a meer cypher , and signify nothing in his own House ; but it is very much in a mans own power whether he will be despised or no : for he that values himself upon the dignity of his place , and asserts his own just authority , shall find Divine Providence standing by him therein , and striking an awe upon the spirits of those that ought to be governed , and so he will be able to do good service , not only in his Closet , but within the whole sphere of his Family . To this end let him observe , that as in the fourth Command God requires and expects , that every Master of a Family be responsible for all those that are within his Gates ; so accordingly in the fifth Commandment he hath invested him with honour under the title of Father and Mother , and both commanded and promised to reward obedience to him : and let not any one think that God will desert his own institution , so as to permit the authority he hath here invested Parents with , to be either trampled upon by others , or prostituted by themselves , without severe animadversion . Let him consider also the great interest that lies in the conserving of paternal authority , in which the foundation is laid , both of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government ; forasmuch as accordingly as people are inured to order , and to be in subjection in private Families , such will be their behaviour afterwards in Church or State : for he that suffers his Children and Servants to be contumacious towards himself , trains them up for instruments of Schism and Rebellion ; and he that on the other side countenances Faction and Disobedience to publick Authority , makes a leading case for Rebellion and confusion in his own Family ; but he that accustoms those which belong to him , to obedience at home , makes his House a Seminary of good Subjects , and of good Christians , and will feel the comfort , and reap the blessing of both . Above all let him consider the nearness and naturalness of the Principles of Religion to the minds of men ; insomuch that there are hardly any but are convinced of the necessity and obligation of it in their own Consciences ; in other things Inferiours may perhaps dispute the wisdom of their Governours , and so be tempted to disobey their Commands ; but plain matters of devotion admit of no dispute , they are imposed by divine authority , written upon the hearts of men , and inacted and proclaimed within their Consciences , and therefore people may with the greater readiness be brought to the observance of them , if we do but stir up and awaken , or at most second Conscience by our Authority . But then Secondly , This authority ought to be tempered with sweetness and benignity in the exercise of it ; for a man is not to be a Tyrant but a Father in his Family , he must not superciliously command , and imperiously will and require , but incline and perswade by the use of all motives and incouragements , and by all the arts of indearment oblige men to their Duty . A mans Family is his own Body , and may be called himself , considered at large and in all his capacities , therefore unnecessary harshness and severity is as indecent in this Society , as cruelty to his own flesh is unnatural . And it is commonly as insuccessful as it is indecent ; for power without goodness is a weapon without edge , which will go no further than mere force carries it . When men only fear , they will hate too , and be sure to obey no more than needs must . Therefore the Apostle Eph. 6. 4. advises , Fathers provoke not your children to wrath , and v. 9. forbids Masters to use threatnings towards Servants , but especially Col. 3. 19. all bitterness towards wives is prohibited ; for these courses ( in such near Relations ) ordinarily make them worse instead of mending them , and stir up all the mud and dirt of their temper . Besides , it is to be considered , that the interest of making men good is very great and valuable , and he doth a very acceptable service to God who obliges his Family to serve and honour him ; for by so doing a man promotes the Salvation of his own Soul , and he will have great allowances made for his personal infirmities at the day of Judgment , who in his more publick capacity hath advanced Gods glory in the Salvation of others . Therefore it is exceedingly worth the while , that we should deny our selves , and condescend to any honest art and method of ingaging men in Religion . Especially this is to be considered , that the instances of Piety and Devotion are above all things to be voluntary , free and chearful , or they are nothing worth ; and therefore harshness and severity are the most improper instruments for such an effect ; consequently it must be wise Discourses , obliging carriage , sweetness of temper , kindness and benignity , that are the most likely methods of prevailing in such a case ; and ordinarily to gain this point , no more is requisite , than that a man discriminate between the good and the bad , that he favour the one and discountenance the other ; and this alone will in time make a strange change in a Family . Especially Thirdly , If in the third place the Governour of a Family be a great Example of Piety himself : Rules without Examples are neither understood nor considered by those to whom they are propounded ; and he that goes about to over-rule his Family to Piety without making Conscience of it in his own practice , nay , who doth not make his own life a great pattern of what he perswades to , undermines his own indeavours , and shall not only fail of success , but be ridiculous for his pains ; for every body is aware of this , that if Devotion be necessary to one , it is so to another ; if the Servant ought to pray to God , so ought the Master ; if one ought to be zealous , certainly the other ought not to be careless or profane ; or if one may be excused the trouble of Religion , so may the other also . And indeed it is hardly possible for a man in these matters to have the confidence earnestly to press the observation of that upon those under him , which is not conspicuous in his own practice ; or at least , if he have the forehead to do it , and can so well act the part of the Hypocritical Pharisee , as to lay heavy burdens upon others , which he himself will not touch with one of his fingers ; yet as he cannot do it heartily , so he must be very vain if he thinks men will not be able to see through the disguise , and very sottish if he can expect that such commands of his should carry any authority with them . But there is a majesty in holy Example , it not only commands but charms men into compliance ; there is life and spirit in it , insomuch , that it animates and inflames all about a man ; it makes Piety to become visible , and not only shews it to be necessary , but represents it with all its advantages of goodness , beauty and ornament ; it confutes mens mistakes of it , answers their objections against it , removes their suspicions , shames their cowardice and lukewarmness : in a word , it doth ( after the manner of all great Engines ) work powerfully , though almost insensibly . We find by common experience , that men are sooner made wise and fit for great actions by the reading of History than by studying of Politicks ; because matter of fact strikes us more powerfully , and the circumstances of things as they are done , instruct us more effectually than all dry rules and speculations can do : to which purpose it is to be remarked , that the way of the holy Scripture is rather to teach men by Examples than by rules ; and accordingly the whole sacred Writ consists principally of the History of the Lives of holy men , Almighty Wisdom thinking that way the fittest , not only to express the Laws of Virtue , but to make impression of them upon the spirits of men ; and indeed ( which is further remarkable ) there are some of the more curious and excellent lines of Piety , which can hardly be exprest by words , but are easily legible in the lives of holy men . Therefore let him who would ingage his Family to Devotion , give them a fair Copy of it in his own Example , and then he shall not fail of the honour and comfort to see it transcribed and imitated by those about him . 4. But that he may with the more certainty and expedition attain this desireable effect , it is very necessary , that he neither make the lives of those he would gain upon , burdensome to them , and exhaust their spirits by too great and constant drudgery about the affairs of the World , nor that he make the business of Religion irksome and unpleasant to them by unnecessary length and tediousness of Family-Devotion ▪ For the former of these will take off their edge , and leave them with no heart to Religion ; and the latter will beget an utter aversation to it . As for the former , our Saviour hath told us , we cannot serve God and Mammon , and that no man can serve two Masters ; i. e. either one of them must be neglected , or both served very remisly : for it 's certain , when men are harassed with secular business , they cannot have spirits enough to attend Religion with any vigour . And for the other , if the duties of Religion be drawn out phantastically to a tedious length , it will be impossible ( whilest men are men ) that they should either be inclined to go to them with such chearfulness , or persevere in them with such delight and fervour as is requisite . Therefore let the World be so moderately pursued , as that time , and strength and room , may be left for Devotion ; and let the Duties of Religion be so contrived , that they may be pleasant and easy , and then ( besides that Devotions so performed are most acceptable to God ) it will be no hard matter to bring our Families to comply with them . Especially 5. If in the fifth place the Governours of Families take care to order and methodize affairs so , that these different things intrench not upon each other , neither the World incroach upon Religion , nor Religion shut out and exclude the common affairs of life ; but both may take their places in a just subordination . We commonly observe , that things in an heap , and which are not digested into any order , look vast and numerous , so as to amuse our minds in the contemplation of them , insomuch that we neither apprehend any of them distinctly , nor comprehend them all together ; and in a crowd of business , we are either so confounded with the multiplicity , or distracted with the variety of things before us , that we apply our selves to nothing at all effectually ; for one hinders and supplants the other . So it is here in the case between the affairs of the two Worlds , if both lie in gross before men , and no distinct place be assigned to each of them ; the effect is , that both together being an intolerable burden , one of the two must necessarily be neglected , and that commonly falls to be the lot of Religion : or if it happen that these offices are not totally omitted , they will be sure to be superficially performed ; the minds of men neither being sufficiently prepared for them , nor united enough to attend them without distraction and wanderings . Therefore as the wise man tells us , there is a time for every thing ; so let every man , who would promote Religion in his Family , appoint set hours for Prayer , and all the offices of Devotion , and then it will neither be difficult to obtain the constant observance of them , nor so ordinary to perform them carelesly and formally . 6. Sixthly and lastly , It will be the wisdom of every Master of a Family who would bring those which are under his care and tuition to an uniformity in Religion and the worship of God , and to seriousness and heartiness therein , that he express all tender affection to them and regard of them , when any of them happen to be sick , or under any adversity , and by that means make to himself an opportunity of obliging them to take his counsel , and follow his direction in all other cases . We use to say , he that will gain an interest in any man , so that he may be useful to him , or compliant with him in his prosperity , must lay the foundation of his Friendship in that mans adversity . For no man knows who are his Friends till he hath occasion to make experiment of them , which cannot be done but in adversity ; for every man is a Friend to him that hath no need to him , but he that like the good Samaritan , deserts us not in our greatest difficulties , him we have just grounds to value and confide in . Now above all kindnesses men are most sensible of those which are done to their Bodies , and they commonly take the measures of all Friendship and sincerity from thence , and therefore he that will win upon the minds of men , must first oblige them in their bodily interests . Besides , as we observe , that all inferiour Creatures are most tractable and docible at such times as wherein they are lowest and can least help themselves ; so mankind is most disposed to take advice , and most obedient to counsel when he is at a non-plus in his affairs , and especially when the vanities of this World , which dazled his Eyes before , begin to vanish , and there seems to be but one way left with him ( that is , to prepare for another life ) he will then freely admit of Discourse of the other World , and be glad to comply with all serious advice in order thereunto . These seasons of adversity therefore are by no means to be let slip by him who is tender of the Souls of those who are under his charge . To which add , that forasmuch as it is the constant method of all the Zealots and Emissaries of false Religions to insinuate themselves into sick and calamitous persons , to the end that by such an opportunity they may gain Disciples to their party , and they too frequently find this subtilty successful : the consideration hereof ought to awaken the diligence , and incourage the hopes and indeavours of all those that sincerely desire to save their own Souls , and those that are imbarqued with them , to apprehend and improve such opportunities to better purposes ; especially seeing that in such seasons men are as capable of good principles as of bad , if there be not as much shameful and supine carelessness on the one side , as there is commonly vigilance and application on the other . And so much for Family-Piety . CHAP. VI. Of publick Piety , and particularly of governing a mans self in relation to the Church and publick assembly of Christians . AS it is certain we were not born for our selves , so neither is it a sufficient discharge of our duty , that we be useful in our private Family , or amongst our Kindred and Relations only , but that we express a zeal of Gods glory and the good of Mankind , answerable to the full extent of our capacity , and let our light so shine out before men , that we may provoke , as many as are within our reach , to glorify our Father which is in Heaven . Now every private man is in some measure concerned in the Neighbourhood and Parish wherein he dwells , and whereto he belongs ; and therefore should so far at least dispense the influence of his zeal for God and Religion : for Almighty God , who hath appointed the bounds of mens habitation , having thus setled every man in his station , expects that he should look upon this as his proper sphere , and adorn it as his peculiar Province . No private man hath any just reason ordinarily to prompt him to go beyond this , forasmuch as if every good man would do his part within these bounds , the whole World would be amended , and he that is remiss and negligent in this , cannot easily satisfy himself that he hath demonstrated such love to God as becomes him , nor can he expect to reap all those comforts and benefits which otherwise by a conscientious discharge of himself in this particular might redound to him . Now that which we mean by the relation to a Neighbourhood or a Parish hath a double consideration . First , As every Parish is or ought to be a branch or member of the Church . Secondly , As it is a branch or member of the Commonwealth . Accordingly there is a double obligation lies upon every man that is within the bounds of it , and from thence arise duties of a different nature : for brevity and perspicuity , I will distinguish them by the names of Ecclesiastical and Civil Piety , and then shew what each of them comprehends , beginning with that which I call Ecclesiastical Piety , or the discharge of such publick duties as especially concern the Society of a Church . And this consists in these few following particulars . 1. That a man join himself to , and carry himself as a member of the Church , and not out of pride , phantastry or contempt separate himself from it , or schismatically set up Factions and Conventicles against it . It is evident , that our Lord Jesus Christ established the Society of a Church ; that is , appointed that all those who would be his Disciples , should not content themselves singly and particularly to believe on him , but should all be obliged to associate themselves , and make up a body or spiritual corporation wherein they were to hold Communion with each other , as members , as well as with him their head . The ends and uses of this institution were very many and great ; for besides that by this means order and unity is promoted , which is very beautiful in the Eyes of God himself , our Lord hereby provided that the truth of Christianity might be jointly held up in the World , and the several members of this Society become mutually more helpful and comfortable to each other , and also that by a constant method of Christian intercourse here , they may be fitted for Eternal Friendship and Society in Heaven . In subserviency to all these ends , publick Officers were appointed in the Church to govern and to instruct the several members of it , which it were plainly impossible for them to do ( unless their numbers were almost infinite and equal to that of the people ) if it had not been that the people were to join together , and become a common flock for those Officers to govern and instruct . Moreover it was also the intention of our Saviour , that this Church of his should be but one , and Catholick , imbracing all the true Believers all the World over , and therefore it is called his Body and his Spouse : from whence it follows that every man who will partake of the benefits which flow from him , must be a part of this Body , and thereby hold Communion with him by Conjunction with that , which is otherwise impossible to be done , than by joining with that part of the Catholick Church where it hath pleased the Divine Providence to settle our abode and habitation , that is , in the Parish and Neighbourhood where we dwell ; for without this , though it 's possible we may retain the fame Faith in our hearts with the Catholick Church , yet we cannot perform the offices of members , nor serve the ends of such a Society . The result is therefore , that it is ordinarily every Christians Duty to communicate in all the offices of Christianity , to submit to the Officers , to be subject to the censures , ahd to comply with the orders of that part of the Church amongst which the Divine Providence hath placed him . I say ordinarily , because it may happen that the Society of Christians amongst whom a man lives may be heretical in their Doctrine , or Idolatrous in their Worship , and then it will not be his sin but his duty to separate from them ; but bating that case , and where the Doctrine is sound , and the worship free from Idolatry , I see not what else can acquit him of Schism that separates , or what can be sufficient to dissolve the obligation of joining with the Catholick Church by Conjunction with that particular Society , or Member of it , where he is placed . Therefore let not the good Christian without flat necessity , suffer himself to be alienated from the particular Church , lest by so doing he lose the comforts and benefits of the Catholick Church ; but let it be his care and indeavour ( so far as it is in his power ) that there may be but one Church in the World , as was the intention of our Saviour : to this purpose let him not hearken to the fond pretences of purer Ordinances and double refined worship , or to the vain boasts of greater edification in other Assemblies ; for besides that a man may justly expect most of Gods blessing upon those means which are most his duty to apply himself unto ; it is also evident , that if such suggestions be attended to , it will be flatly impossible that there should ever be such a thing as unity or order in the Christian Church ; nay these conceits will not only distract and confound the order of the Church , but they serve to fill mens heads with endless disputes , and their hearts with perpetual scruples about purity of administrations , so that they shall rest no where , but under pretence of soaring higher and higher , shall ramble from one Church to another , till at last they cast off all Ordinances as the highest attainment of spirituality . Nor let him give ear to any peevish insinuations against the Church and publick worship , upon account that there are some Rites or Ceremonies made use of which are only of humane institution ; for it is not only reasonable to hope that God will be well pleased with humility , peaceableness and obedience to humane Laws , but certain , that there is no Church in the World , that is or can be without some observances , that have no higher original than humane institution . But against these , and all other such like principles of separation , let him indeavour to secure himself ; First , by dismissing the prejudices of Education , and the unnecessary scrupulosities of a melancholy temper , and above all , acquit himself of pride and pragmaticalness , and then he will easily and comfortably comply with any sound part of the Christian Church . In pursuance whereof 2. He must diligently frequent all the publick offices of Religion in that Society , whether it be Prayers , Preaching or reading the word of God , or Administration of the Sacraments , &c. For it is a mighty shame that a man should pretend to be of the Church , who cares not how little or how seldom he comes at it , and who slights the advantages of its Communion . For such a man , however he may hector and swagger for the notion of a Church , manifestly betrays that all is but humour or interest , and no true principle of Christianity at the bottom ; and really , he doth more dishonour to that Society , than the professed Schismatick doth or can do . For besides that he incourages them in their contempt of it , and discourages good men in their zeal for it ; he foments the suspicion of Atheistical men , that Religion is but a politick trick to catch silly persons with , whilest those that are privy to the plot , keep out of the bondage of it : I need not adde , That he defeats the institution of our Saviour , that he baulks his own Conscience ( if he have any ) and aggravates his own Damnation , which are all very sad things . On the other side , the blessings and comforts of frequenting the offices of the Church are so many and great , that it is not imaginable how any man who is convinced of the duty of Communion in general , should be able to neglect the particular instances of it . For besides that the Church is Gods House , where he is especially present , and where we meet him , and place our selves under his eye and observation , and from whence he usually dispenses his favours ; it is a great furtherance of our zeal and piety , to be in the presence of one another , where the example of holy fervour and devotion in one , powerfully strikes and affects others . There is also an extraordinary majesty in the word of God , when it is not only fitted to our peculiar condition , but authoritatively pronounced , and applied to our Conscience by Gods Messenger . Above all , in Prayers , when our Petitions and requests are not only put up to Almighty God , by his own Minister appointed for this purpose ; but our weakness is relieved , our spirits incouraged , and we are inabled ( notwithstanding our private meanness or guilt ) to hope for acceptance and success in our desires , by the concurrent Devotions of so many holy men as there join with us in the same suit , and in the same words , and whose united importunity besieges Heaven , and prevails with Almighty Goodness for a blessing . Wherefore let no man permit the private exercises of Piety it self , such as Prayer , reading , or Meditation , to supersede or hinder his attendance upon the publick offices of the Church , seeing that as these yield more publick honour to the Divine Majesty , so they are more effectual for our own benefit ; much less let sloth or too great eagerness upon the affairs of the World , make us forget or neglect them ; but least of all let any lukewarm indifferency or Atheistical carelessness seise upon any man in this particular ; but let the man who glories to be of the Christian Church , be sure to be found there in the Assemblies of Gods Servants . 3. And more particularly , let him not neglect the opportunities of receiving the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , as often as they are presented to him , unless some weighty occasion hinder or disable him . It is well known to have been the use of the primitive Church to administer this holy Sacrament as often as it held any solemn Assembly for divine worship , and the Christians then as duly received it as they came to Church ; nor did the frequency of it abate their reverence to it , but highly increased it rather . And this office they therefore called the Communion , because it was the symbol of a compleat member of the Church , and the fullest instance of that Society . To have been kept from it by any accident , was then looked upon as a great Calamity ; but to be debarred from it by the censure of the Church , was as dreadful to them as the Sentence of Death . They sought to be restored to it with tears , with prostrations in SackCloth and Ashes , with all the intercession of their Friends , and all the interests they could make . There was no need in those times to use arguments to convince men of the duty , or repeated exhortations to press them to the performance of it ; the Ministers of the Church had no trouble in answering objections against it , or removing impertinent scruples about it , much less was there any occasion to urge the observance of it by humane Laws ; for they remembred it was instituted by their Saviour on the same night in which he was betrayed , for the Commemoration of his Passion , and recommended to their observance by the most obliging circumstances ; they found the constant solemnity of it setled in all Churches by the Apostles , and they were well aware of the unspeakable comforts of it . Now the reason of all these things holds as much in these times as then ( saving that men are not so conscientious and devout as they were ) : for in the first place , it hath been the custom of the Church in all times since , to make this Sacrament the badge and cognizance of her members , until of late those have pretended to be Churches where there was neither Order nor Unity , neither Sacraments administred nor indeed persons qualified to administer them ; and it 's great pity and shame that such an unhappy novelty should prescribe against all Antiquity . And then secondly , as for the institution of this Sacrament by our Saviour , it is manifest , that he did not deliver himself by way of counsel and advice , so as to leave it to our discretion or courtesy to observe this Sacrament or omit it , but by express and positive command , Do this in remembrance of me ; and therefore there is no room for the cavil against mixt Communion , as if we were excused from celebrating the Lord's Supper , because others do it unworthily ; which is as much as to say , because some do it as they should not , I may chuse whether I will do it at all . But ( as I said ) here is an express command that we do it , and therefore we have no liberty to omit it upon any such pretence . And upon the same account it will be in vain to pretend I am not prepared for it , and therefore must be excused ; for when our Lord hath made it our duty to do it , it is our duty also to do it as we should do , and the neglect of one duty will not excuse another , i. e. our sin of unpreparedness will be no apology for our sin in total omission of the Sacrament . The whole truth is , here are two things required of us , one expressed and the other implied ; the express duty is ; that we celebrate the memorial of our Saviours Passion ; the implied duty is , that this be done with such preparation as agrees with so sacred a mystery ; both these therefore are to be performed : for as my coming to the Sacrament will not excuse my coming unpreparedly , so much less will my unpreparedness excuse my not coming at all . But of the two , it seems far the more pardonable to come , though somewhat unpreparedly , than not to come because of unpreparedness ; for that is neither to come nor prepare neither . I say , though neither ought to be done , yet it is plainly better to offend in the point of an implied duty , than of an express one ; but especially , it is more tolerable to commit one sin than both , as he that comes not to the Lords Supper at all , notoriously doth . But then thirdly , for the comforts of this holy Sacrament , those are so vastly great , that the man is as well insensible of his own good as of the honour of Christ Jesus , who willfully neglects the Lords Supper . For in the first place , by commemorating the Passion of our Lord in that holy Feast , we not only perform an office of obedience and gratitude to our Saviour , but we strengthen our Faith in the efficacy of his Death and Sacrifice for the expiation of sin , which affords the greatest relief to our guilty Consciences that can be . And together herewith we melt our own hearts into contrition , fears and sorrow for those sins of ours which required such an atonement . For who can consider what his Saviour suffered , and look upon him whom we have pierced , and not mourn heartily for his sin and his danger ? Again , by eating and drinking at the Lords Table we are made sensible of the happy estate of Friendship with God , which we are now restored to by the intercession of our Lord Jesus . Moreover by commemorating his Death , and the ends and effects of it , we fortify our own minds against the fear of Death , and by feeding upon his body and blood we have the pledges of our own Resurrection and Immortality , and to say no more ( though in so copious and comfortable a subject ) by partaking of his body and blood we become united to him , and partake of the same spirit that was in him . And now after all this , who will make that an excuse for omitting the Sacrament , that they do not find or observe , that either themselves or others profit by it ? What , is it no profit that we have done our duty and exprest our gratitude to so great a Benefactor ? Is it no profit to see Christ Crucified before our Eyes , and to see him pour out his heart blood for Sinners ? Is it no profit to be made ingenuously to weep over our own sins ? Is it no priviledge , no comfort to be admitted to the Lords Table , in token of Friendship and reconciliation with him ? Certainly there is no body but profits something more or less by these things ; and if there be any man who doth not profit greatly by them , he must needs have a very naughty heart indeed , and had need to prepare himself , and go often to the Sacrament that it may be mended . But however let the good Christian gladly imbrace all opportunities of this holy solemnity , and not doubt to find comfort by it . 4. As for the other offices of the Church , such as Prayers especially , let him remember to frequent them constantly and intirely . By constancy of attendance upon publick worship , I mean , that he should not only apply himself to it on the Sundays or Lords Days , but every Day of the Week if there be opportunity : and by intireness of Gods Service , I understand it to be his duty both to go at the beginning , and to join in it both Morning and Evening , that by all together he may not only sure himself and his own Conscience of his heartiness and sincerity , but demonstrate to all about him the great sense he hath of the moment of Religion , and that he looks upon the serving of God as of greater consequence than all other interests whatsoever . As for the first of these , viz. the frequenting the publick Prayers every day ( where they are to be had ) it is observable in the character of Cornelius , Acts 10. 2. that amongst other instances of devotion it is said of him that he prayed to God always , which cannot well be understood of any thing else but his daily frequenting the publick Prayers , because his private Prayers could not be so well known as to make his Character . But most expresly it is said of all that believed , Acts 2. 46. that they continued daily with one accord in the temple , which must needs principally have reference to this duty of publick Prayer ; and it is very hard if any man be so put to it , that he cannot spare one hour in a Day to do publick honour to the Divine Majesty , or rather it is a great sign of unbelief in his providence as well as want of love to him , if a man cannot trust God so far as to hope that such a time spent in his service shall be recompensed by his blessing upon the residue of the Day ; or however , a good Christian will be well contented , and gladly sacrifice so much of his secular interests ( as this comes to ) to the Divine Majesty . As for the second point , viz. going at the beginning of Prayers , it is a shameful neglect which several persons are guilty of , who will not altogether be absent from the Church , but yet will come commonly so late , that they not only lose part of the Prayers , but enter very abruptly and irreverently upon that which they partake of . It is possible a man may sometimes be surprized by the time , or diverted from his intention by some emergency ; but to be frequently tardy is an argument that he loves something better than God and his worship . For doubtless a good Christian would ordinarily choose rather to stay for the Minister , than that the publick office should stay for him , and thinks it fitter to spend a little time in preparing and disposing his heart for the duties of Religion , than either to enter into the divine presence rudely , or to serve him only by halves . And as for the third branch of this instance of Devotion , viz. the resorting both to Morning and Evening Service , it is observable Acts 3. 1. that the Apostles were at the temple at the hour of Prayer , being the ninth hour , which is both a proof of their frequenting the Evening Service as well as that of the Morning , and also an example of observing the just and stated times of publick worship ; and surely it will become every good Christian to be lead by such a precedent , especially seeing the Gospel worship which we resort to is so much more excellent and comfortable than the Jewish was ( which those holy men thus carefully frequented ) as we shall see by and by . 5. In the next place it is to be minded , that in all these publick approaches to Gods House , we are to express a great reverence towards the Divine Majesty : by which I do not only mean that we ought in our hearts to think worthily of him , and prostrate all the inward powers of our Souls to him , but that in our outward man , in our carriage and bodily deportment we express an awful regard to him , by all such gestures and signs , as according to the common opinion of men , are taken to betoken the highest reverence and observance , such as standing , kneeling , bowing , and prostrations of our selves before him . For though the heart be that which God principally looks at , yet forasmuch as he made our bodies as well as our Souls , and we hope he will save both , he therefore expects we should glorify him , both with our souls and with our bodies which are his , and which he hath bought with a price , 1 Cor. 6. 20. And indeed there is such a nearness and sympathy between our bodies and spirits , that they ordinarily move by consent , and draw one another into compliance . Insomuch , that he who truly bows his Soul to God , can scarcely forbear at the same time to bow his knees to him also ; and he on the other side that bows his knee to him , is by that very motion of his body in some measure put in mind to entertain reverential thoughts and affections towards him . And this care of bodily worship is the more important in publick service , and especially in Gods House , because ( as I noted before ) then and there his honour and grandeur is concerned , and any indecent carriage in such a case , is an affront to him , and exposes him to contempt in the eyes of men , and therefore that carriage which in secret worship might admit of excuse , will in publick be intolerable profaneness . Wherefore let not the pious man be affrighted by any one out of the expressions of bodily reverence , under the notion of superstition , which is become a Bugbear , by which weak men are made afraid of every instance of a decorous or generous Devotion . There can be no culpable superstition in our worship , so long as we have the true object for it , and whilest we use not such expressions of our Devotion as he hath forbidden ; but this of bodily reverence is so far from being forbidden , that it is expresly required in the holy Scripture , and hath been constantly practised by all holy men . Nor let the phancy of a spiritual worship , required under the Gospel , beguile any man into a contempt or neglect of bodily reverence ; for it is plain , that although the Christian Religion raises mens inward Devotion higher , yet it abates nothing of outward adoration ; but rather when it requires the former should be more intense and affectionate , it supposes the other should be answerable , because it is natural so to be ; for this being the accessory cannot but follow the principal . It is true , there is a possibility that more stress may be laid upon the shadow than the substance , and some men may hope to complement God Almighty out of his right to their hearts , by the addresses of their bodies : but the fault in this case is not , that there is too much of the latter , but too little of the former ; and the good Christian therefore will be sure to join both together ; and as he will come to Gods House with the most elevated affections , so he will express his apprehensions of the infinite distance between him and the Divine Majesty by the lowliest postures of his body . 6. Next to this let the pious man think it his duty to pay some measure of reverence to Gods Minister as well as to the Divine Majesty , and for his sake . In the Old Testament , God took special care of the respect and dignity of his Ministers as well as of their maintenance ; for indeed all contumely towards them redounds upon himself : And the new Testament is very full and express in this particular , they are those that watch for our souls , and must give account for them , they are Gods Embassadors , and workers together with him , those by whose hands he pardons and blesses his people , and therefore he holds them as the stars in his right hand , and those who slight them that speak in his name on earth affront him that speaketh from heaven , but amongst the many passages in the New Testament to this purpose , that of the Apostle to the Thessal . 1. Ep. 5. 13. is very considerable , the words are these , We beseech you brethren to know those who labour amongst you , and are over you in the Lord , and to esteem them very highly in love for their works sake . The last words are so emphatical they cannot be expressed in English , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to give them greater esteem than otherwise is due to them for their work and office sake , i. e. to value them above their parts and merits and quality in other respects , for the sake of that relation they stand in to God , and for their office and usefulness towards our Souls . And indeed touching that last particular , it is evident in experience , that all those who have any regard to their own Souls , are such as indeavour to raise in their hearts an esteem for their Minister ; not only that they may incourage his studies and sweeten his labours to him , but that they may render themselves the more capable of following his counsels and receiving benefit by his instructions : and on the other side , those that slight and vilify the persons of such , neither do nor possibly can ( ordinarily ) receive any benefit by their Ministry , and therefore the Prophet Hosea 4. 4. speaking of a profligate and hopeless sort of people , useth this expression , this people are as those that strive with the Priest , q. d. they are not only horribly vicious and profane , but they are incorrigible too . Therefore the piously disposed man will be sure to reverence Gods Ministers , both for Gods sake and his own too , and this leads me to another duty of kind to the former , viz. 7. That the good Christian account it an office of publick Piety as well as of common justice , to pay truly and faithfully his Tithes and Church dues to the Minister : this the Apostle intimates by the expression of double honour , 1 Tim. 5. 17. Natural reason and the common sense of mankind requires that they which serve at the Altar should live upon the Altar . And in the Old Testament when God himself setled the provision for his Ministers , he did it most amply and honourably ; and under the Gospel pious antiquity took care that the Christian Church and Ministry thereof should be liberally indowed , till the envy and rapacity of after-times deprived it of a great part of its rights ; but now after those depredations it would be an horrible sin and shame to rob the Church of any part of that remainder , or fraudulently to diminish or impair it . For it is evident , that no man can pretend any right to it , as having neither purchased it nor hired it , nor had it descend upon him by inheritance ; the Churches due being a reserved estate , or a rent-charge upon every private estate . And it is notorious that it is what pious Ancestry consecrated to this use , and therefore no part of it can be invaded , intercepted or incroached upon without Sacriledge and the Curse of God. And for proof of this , we need no more than to observe the common success of such men as purloin from the Church , and ( as their own phrase is ) are always pinching on the Parsons side . They are generally a querulous , uneasy , lean , hungry and unthrifty sort of people , God Almighty blowing upon and blasting their other labours for the sake of this accursed thing in their Tents ; or if any of them thrive for the present , yet , one time or other , a Coal from the Altar will take hold of , and fire their Nests . Whereas on the other side , those that are just to God in this particular , ordinarily find the benefit of it in the success of their affairs , and they are commonly chearful in their spirits and prosperous in the World. But the good Christian will not need these arguments , for he loves God and his service , and his Ministers , and thinks it fit that he that reaps spiritual things ought liberally to sow temporal things , at least he will rather abridge himself than wrong the Church , although it may be never so cleverly done , under the countenance of a corrupt custom or prescription . So far from it , that 8. In the eighth place he will be an example of pious munificence , and put himself to some voluntary cost for the Ornaments of Religion and the House of God , and that his publick service may be performed with gravity , decency and solemnity . For he thinks it very fit that the great Majesty of Heaven and Earth should not only be worshipped with sincerity and devotion , but with grandeur and magnificence . He will not therefore humour the profaneness of degenerate times so much as to forswear building of Churches , if it be in his power , nor much less will be backward or stingy in repairing of them when there is occasion ; for he cannot find in his heart to let Gods House lie waste when he builds his own , nor frame his mind to think that is good enough for the uses of Religion which he could not be contented with for his private accommodation , if better were in his power , and therefore will in all Parish-meetings about these matters vote for God against his own Purse , for he is of Davids mind , who had no fancy for a cheap Religion , nor would serve God with that which cost him nothing , 1 Chron. 21. 24. And as he Psal . 84. verses 5 , 6 , 7. blesses those that took pains to repair the ways , and to make the passage easy towards God House at Jerusalem ; so the pious Christian will indeavour by his counsel and example , that the whole external face of Religion may be lightsome , beautiful and decorous in the place where he dwells , to the end that not only his animal spirits may the more chearfully comply with the devotion of his mind , but that those also may be invited to frequent Gods House and worship , who have not yet experimented the spiritual ravishments of it . In further pursuance whereof 9. The pious man ( we speak of ) will together with all the aforesaid allurements , use also his utmost indeavours by perswasions , incouragements , and all other fit means to prevail with the whole Neighbourhood or Parish to frequent the Church . For as he would not go to Heaven alone , nay knows assuredly he shall not come there , if he do not indeavour to carry others along with him ; so neither is he contented to feed upon the fatness of Gods House alone , but would have others partake with him . He hath a holy indignation to observe Theaters to be filled , Exchanges and Markets thronged , and Gods House unfurnished with Guests . He wonders at the inconsiderateness of men who incur such a guilt by the contempt of Religion , and pitties their folly that deny themselves so many comforts and advantages as Gods House affords above any other place of resort whatsoever . Besides , he considers , that not only God is more honour'd by a general confluence to his service , but that his own heart is more inlarged and chearful , and his affections more raised ( as it were moving in Consort ) when there is a brave concourse in Divine Offices . Psal . 122. 1 , 2. I rejoiced ( saith the holy man ) when they said , Come , let us go up to the House of the Lord , our feet shall stand within thy gates O Jerusalem . Well-disposed persons ( it seems ) then were wont to call upon and provoke one another , and to flock together in Companies towards the Temple , and it was a pleasant spectacle to the Psalmist to behold it . And let good Christians be ashamed to be outdone in any thing of this kind , since our Church and worship is so incomparably more excellent than theirs . What was it that a zealous Jew could provoke his Neighbours to go up to the Temple for ? to see a Beast slain and a smoke made with the fat and entrails , or to muse upon the obscure Hieroglyphicks in the Fabrick , the Utensils , the Ornaments and Service of that House ? But a Christian goes to the Church to hear the lively Oracles of God , to see Heaven opened in all its glories , and to be shewed the way thither . Therefore he that is sensible of the great odds on the side of the Christian worship , and who hath so much Prudence and Charity as to render him serviceable amongst his Neighbours to such a purpose , will jog and awaken them out of their sloth and negligence of going to the Church , by wise and manly Discourses , and friendly and familiar Exhortations , from the considerations of the scandal to Religion , and discouragement to the Minister by the peoples remissness , and of the duty and benefit of diligent attendance , and he will with the same zeal and care indeavour to answer their objections , and remove their scruples about it ; and especially considering , that this is commonly better taken , and sinks deeper into such men as need it , when it is done ( not only by the Minister , who is presumed by these incogitant persons to do it for his interest or the reputation of his person or profession , but ) by those who are upon the same terms with themselves . To all this , the pious man aforesaid will wisely improve the interest of his Charity to oblige the poorer sort to their duty , dispensing most liberally to them who are most inclinable to follow his counsel in this particular ; and for the middle sort of men , he will trade and buy and sell upon choice with those that are best affected to the Church and Religion . But if all this should not do , and that he cannot prevail upon all , yet 10. In the last place , he will not fail at least to over-rule his own Family , that they shall universally and constantly frequent the Church , and so be an example to the Neighbourhood . This I have shewed before , every Governour of a Family hath authority from God to do , and the holy Scripture affords us several instances of the efficacy and success of making use of it to this purpose ; amongst the rest , by virtue hereof , Joshua undertook for his House , that they should serve the Lord ; and Cornelius prevailed upon those under him so , that he is said to fear the Lord with all his House . And indeed a Master of a Family will be able to give a very sorry account of his Family , if he cannot oblige them to go to Church with him ; for we find by woful experience , that where under pretence of scruples about the publick worship , inferiours have claimed the priviledge of exemption , and been permitted to resort to Conventicles , the effect hath been , that such persons have not only grown captious and insolent , and by degrees to despise their Superiours , but having by this means gotten from under the Eye of their Governours have made no scruple to run into Debauchery . Therefore let the pious man strictly charge himself thus far , and look upon himself as very insignificant in his place , if he do not so much publick honour to God and Religion , as to bring his Family to the House of God. CHAP. VII . Of Civil Piety , Or , How a good man may carry himself so , as to promote Gods honour , and the publick good , together with his own peace and comfort , in the Parish , considered only as a Civil Society or Neighbourhood . WHen our blessed Saviour , Mat. 5. 13. saith to his Disciples , Ye are the salt of the earth , he did not direct himself only to his Apostles , or to them and their Successors , the Pastors of his Church ( as some have imagined ) but to all his Disciples in general . For besides that the Beatitudes which he pronounces in the former part of the Chapter , and his other Discourse ( pursuant of them ) which immediately precedes these words , apparently concern all Christians , so far as they are qualified for them ; It is evident also by S. Luke , Chap. 14. comparing the 25 Verse with the 32. that it was his intention to apply this title of being the salt of the earth , to the whole body of true Christians . And then the importance of that expression will be this , That the true spirit of Christianity is and ought to be a principle of activity ; and the Professors of this Religion are not to content themselves with passive innocency , and that they escape the contagion of evil Example , nor be corrupted and debauched by the temptations or customs of the World : But that they must look upon it as their duty to better and improve the state of Mankind , to influence upon it , to season and preserve others from corruption as well as themselves . Nor is this activity of true Christianity to be strictly confined within the limits of the Church , or to display it self merely in the great duties of Religion properly considered . For as our Saviour designed not only to shew men a way to another World above , but also to amend the condition of this present World below , and to make it a more quiet and comfortable habitation : so doubtless when he calls his Disciples the salt of the whole Earth , he intended to require , that every good man should ( within his whole sphere ) indeavour to promote humanity , morality , and the civil and political happiness of mankind . The discharge of which is that which I call civil Piety , and the measures whereof ( at least so far as concerns the purpose in hand ) are briefly described in the following particulars . 1. The first office of civil Piety is to maintain Government and Order , to keep up the honour and dignity of the Prince , to preserve the reverence of Magistracy and the Laws of a mans Country . For the doing of this , we have as express and urgent commands of God as any are to be found in the whole Scripture ; and therefore the conscientious discharge hereof is as acceptable to him as any act of immediate worship . For God Almighty needs nothing at our hands for himself , or for his own use and advantage , but makes the publick good of his Creatures the matter and reason of his Laws : Now publick Peace and tranquillity ( which are only to be preserved by Laws and Magistracy ) are of mighty concernment to mankind , as well as beautiful in the Eyes of him that calleth himself a God of order . For without Government we could have no quiet in our habitations , no security of our persons , no propriety in our Estates , no defence against Foreign Invasion , nor any refuge from the inraged multitude or combined force of evil men ; but the weak would be a prey to the strong , the slothful would eat the labours of the industrious , the World would be filled with Murders , Rapine and Violence , and become an Hell upon Earth ; and therefore it is not only worthy of a wise mans care to uphold Government , but must be his important duty to indeavour it . And the being instrumental herein , is not only very honourable to Religion , and consequently procures the benign aspect of Princes towards it , and provokes them to become nursing Fathers of it , but is peculiarly commodious to all the offices and exercises thereof . Therefore it is observable , that the Apostles generally in all their Writings , immediately after they have discoursed of the peculiar Duties of Christianity , subjoin earnest exhortations to obedience to humane Laws and civil Powers ; and the primitive Christians were so infinitely tender herein , as if they thought that God could not have his honour , and glory , and service rightly performed to him , unless Peace and Order were preserved in the World. Now forasmuch as the greatest Kingdoms consist of so many several lesser Bodies , as the integral parts thereof ; and those again of so many Parishes : And forasmuch as it is impossible there should be peace and good order in the Whole , if the particular parts or members be out of order : Therefore it must not only be the duty , but be within the power of every private person to contribute something towards the great ends aforesaid ; first by disposing himself , secondly by principling his Family , and thirdly , by perswading and inclining his Neighbours to favour and assist the Government towards the attainment of the design of humane Society . And this the good Christian ought at this time especially to set himself about with the greater zeal , because the looseness herein seems to be one of the peculiar evils of the present age we live in , and that which not only makes an ill reflection upon Religion , but indangers the state of it . In order therefore to the upholding of Government , let the good man indeavour in converse with his Neighbours to possess them with an apprehension of the necessity of submitting private interests to common utility , and particular opinion to publick discretion , and so bring them into a good opinion of the reasonableness of the Laws , and of the wisdom of their Governours . Let him labour to remove peoples discontents , to confute their jealousies , and to make them chearful and well-pleased with the state of the World , which God hath ordered . Let him discountenance all seditious Libels and News , not permit in his Company any pragmatical censuring of the Laws or publick Counsels ; no traducing the persons or exposing the infirmities of Governours ; nor no repining at , and envying the glory and splendour of those that are preferred above themselves . That he may be successful in all this , let him be careful to preserve and keep up the distinct ranks , orders and degrees of men , and that those differences which it hath pleased the Divine Providence to make in the fortunes and conditions of men be observed , I mean in respect of age and youth , riches and poverty , honour and obscruity ; the neglect of which is not only a malapert Quakerly humour , but a principle of sedition and confusion in the World. For as it is evident , that there can be no peace and quiet in the World , if there be no Government ; so it is as certain , there can be no Government where there is no Order , nor the different degrees amongst men observed : and therefore he that would either level the condition of all men , or ( which is the same things in effect ) would destroy that reverence which keeps up that distinction and diversity of condition , dissolves the very sinews of humane Society . God Almighty indeed could easily have levelled the condition of all men , and taken away or prevented the differences of Rich and Poor , honourable and ignoble ; and of old and young too , if he had so pleased . But then , it is not imaginable how there could have been any Society amongst men , at least , unless he had also by his omnipotency made them all to be wise and good too : but forasmuch as he resolved to have order and government amongst men , and yet would not effect it by violence ; he therefore resolved by means of those different conditions aforesaid , to subordinate them one to another , and to unite them together in the Bonds of mutual usefulness and dependance . So he ordered that some should be poor to ease the rich of labour and drudgery , and others rich to imploy and incourage their industry ; that the one might have superfluity to relieve the others want , and the other be obliged by their bounty : the same Providence ordered that there should be some men in power and dignity , and others in privacy and obscurity ; that the man of honour standing by and countenancing the ignoble as his Client , he on the other side should observe and acknowledge him as his Patron , and so harmony arises out of this discord . Again , he ordered the World so , that all should not be of a stature and capacity of body or mind , but that there should be old men able to counsel and advise others , but not of strength to execute ; and young men of spirit and vigour for Execution , but destitute of counsel and wisdom : that the former by their experience and observation instructing the latter , and the latter by their strength and courage assisting the former ; they might be mutually indeared to each other as members of the same Body . He therefore who incourages or suffers ( if he can help it ) the Poor to be surly and insolent towards the Rich , or the private person to be contumacious towards those in dignity , or the young to be rude and malapert towards the aged , opposes himself to Divine Providence , and is the Author of dissolution of Government and confusion in the World. But he that perswades the poor to be modest , as well as the rich to be charitable ; that puts private persons in mind of subjection , as well as great men of generosity and mildness ; that disposes young men to reverence the gray hairs of the aged , as well as them to do worthily of their respect and gravity , subserves the Divine Providence in his wise method of preserving peace and order , and lays the first foundation of good Government . For the foundation of all Laws and Magistracy is to be laid in the hearts and principles of men ; and unless a modest reverence of superiority be first setled there , the exercise of mere power and authority will be very difficult and insuccessful . So that it is in the power of private persons to promote publick Government , and the office of virtuous men to do so . 2. The second office of a Christian in his Parish is to promote justice and honesty amongst the Neighbourhood in all their dealings and transactions one with another . It is commonly and truly said , that justice is the Pillar of the World , and therefore it is observable , that the great Creator and Governour of the World usually interposes by a visible Providence , more in behalf of this Virtue than of any other ; insomuch , that oppression , and those secret instances of injustice , which cannot ordinarily be discerned and punished by the hand of the Magistrate , seldom escape a curse and Divine Vengeance in this Life . For besides the mischief that such sins do to humane society , they are Arguments of great Infidelity and Atheism ; forasmuch as it plainly betrays that man to have no perswasion of a World to come , who can be tempted for the sake of the present World to do such base and ununworthy actions ; and therefore it is as well an act of Piety towards God , and of Charity to men , as of advantage to the state of civil Society , to use all indeavours to prevent such kind of transgressions . But it is not only strict justice which I here intend , but my meaning is to take it in the full latitude , so as to comprise truth , and faithfulness , and equity also ; that men be true in their assertions , faithful and steady in their promises , and equitable and candid in all their dealings , and so far from doing violence to each other , that they do not enterprize to out-wit , surprize , or over reach one another , but that they use a humane temper , and express a publick spirit ; and in a word , that they govern themselves by that golden Rule of doing to others as they would be content to be done unto , every man making the case of his Neighbour to be his own . And this I the rather represent to the good Christians care , because this kind of injustice is become another very common and epidemical sin of the age , and men seem to applaud themselves in being able to cheat beyond the cognizance of humane Laws , and to play upon and abuse the simplicity , credulity , or inadvertency one of another . For prevention and remedy of which , the Person we speak of , must in the first place render himself a great example of integrity and equity , especially because the measures of these Virtues cannot be so well delivered by the prescription of any Laws whatsoever , as they may be exprest in the Life , and observed in the conversation of good men . And in the next place he ought to endeavour by discourse to make those he converses with , sensible of the baseness and villany of injustice , by representing the sordid love of the World from which it proceeds , the distrust in Gods Providence with which it is accompanied , or rather the utter unbelief of a God by which it is incouraged . How treacherous and cowardly a thing it is to work upon other mens necessity or facility : how selfish and un-neighbourly a thing to have no respect to any thing but our own private interest : how little is commonly gotten at last by such kind of courses : and to how little purpose , since a man cannot but expect the curse of God upon his honest endeavours ( otherwise ) for the sake of his unjust acquisitions . 3. The third office of good neighbourhood is to indeavour to bring into fashion again that almost antiquated Virtue of simplicity and plain-heartedness in our discourses and communications ; that men , especially Neighbours , should ordinarily be free and open and plain to one another without cunning and scrupulous reservation , than which nothing is more suitable to the relation of Neighbours , nothing more friendly and obliging ; for it makes conversation safe and easy when men express a moderate confidence one in another : and although this like some of the lesser stars , make no great shew in the World ; yet is it of very great influence to sweeten the tempers of men , and improve the comforts of Society . Besides , it is an argument of sincerity of heart , of competent assurance of a mans own judgment , and a real instance of true greatness of mind ; whereas little artifices of concealment are justly looked upon as the disguises of weakness , or the prefaces to fraud , and consequently render a man either dangerous or contemptible to those he converses with . Some men indeed please themselves much in closeness and caution , and count it not only a point of prudence , but a piece of state and greatness to live in the dark to all about them ; but it is easy to observe , that if any men admire such persons for their depth , they withal suspect them for their designs , and to be sure do not love them . I acknowledge there is such a thing as a prudent and virtuous secrecy and taciturnity , which is very commendable and necessary in some cases ; for no man values him that labours under a looseness of tongue , and an incontinency of mind , so that he cannot keep his own counsel : and who shall trust him with their secrets who is a blab of his own ? And it is well enough said , that nakedness of mind is as undecent as that of the Body . But then on the other side , must a man be accounted naked unless he cloath himself in Armour ? To be always upon the Ward , and to stand continually upon our guard , as if we were in an Enemies Country , is at least un-neighbourly and disobliging . For besides that such an artificial conversation is very troublesome to both Parties , in regard on the one hand it is very difficult to the reserved man always to stand bent , so as never to betray himself , and then he spoils all his design : And on the other hand , it puts other men upon their guard too ; for men are naturally shy of those whom they observe to be constantly and rigidly close , and so conversation is interrupted ; whereas nothing unlocks other mens hearts , like the opening of our own to them . Again too great reservedness as it is always entertained with jealousy and suspicion for the present , so it commonly breeds disputes and contests in the conclusion ; whereas plain-heartedness hath no rubs nor difficulties in its way , nor no after-game to play : for every man believes and trusts such a man as plays upon the square , and such a conversation is pleasant and acceptable . Moreover cunning is always lookt upon as an argument of a little mind and of a cowardly temper ; for what should tempt a man to dissemble and work under-ground , but mistrust of his own abilities or consciousness of evil designs ; and this is so far from affording a man any security , that it provokes other men , first to pry the more curiously into him , and then to countermine him , and at last to expose him . To all which add , that if this reservedness we speak of proceeds from insincerity and design , it betrays great unbelief of God and of Providence ; for the clear apprehensions of those great points will incourage a man to be open , and plain and confident : but if it proceed from temper and constitution only , yet even then it doth far more harm than good , and particularly ( as I said before ) it makes life and conversation very uncomfortable , and good Neighbourhood plainly impossible ; and therefore it is well worthy of the care and indeavours of a good man to reduce and recover the antient sincerity and simplicity , instead of that hollow complemental hypocrisy which hath of late supplanted and excluded it . 4. But yet care is to be taken withal , that this plainness and simplicity degenerate not into rudeness , or frothy and foolish conversation , and therefore it is the fourth office of a virtuous man amongst his Neighbours , to indeavour to render conversation favoury , and manly and profitable as well as sincere ; that is , that it be neither trifled away with flat , inspid and gossiping impertinence , nor misimployed in light and idle drollery , nor turned into an occasion of tipling and sensuality , much less debauched by profaneness and malapert reflections on things sacred , but that it be applied to the furtherance of real business , to the bettering of mens understandings , to virtuous purposes , and especially to the advantage of Religion . These last things are useful to the World , and worthy of men ; but the other are a mis-expence of time , a degrading of our selves , a reproach to our reason , and the bane of conversation . With a peculiar respect to such things as these it is that Christians are called the salt of the earth ( as I observed before ) because they are not only to prevent the rottenness and putrefaction , but also the flatness and insipidity of conversation . And as for that which I intimated in the last place , namely , the consulting the advantage of Religion , I must now say further , that although it be true that that is not the only subject of good Discourse , forasmuch as God allows us both the refreshment of our spirits , and a moderate concern about the affairs of this life ; and therefore consequently the affair of another World ought not to be importunely thrust in upon all occasions to the exclusion of other entertainments : yet most certainly it ought to have its place and share in our friendly communications , as being the most weighty and important subject , and if it be dexterously managed , the most gentile and obliging . Neither will it be so very difficult as is commonly imagined , to turn the stream of Neighbourly Discourse this way , if men would be perswaded to try , and apply themselves seriously to it : and surely he that hopes to attain the joys of Heaven himself , cannot but wish his Neighbours in the way thither also ; nor can he whose heart is throughly affected with the apprehensions of it , omit now and then to let fall something or other that way tending ; at least every good man owes so much to God and Religion , as to interpose a good word sometimes in their behalf , which besides that it gives some countenance to Piety for the present , may by the blessing of God make a greater impression than we are aware of , and redound to his own comfortable account another day . But 5. It is unquestionably the duty of every Christian to labour to the utmost of his power to make and preserve peace amongst his Neighbours . To this purpose it is very observable , that our Saviour , Mark 9. 50. joins these two things together , have salt in your selves , and have peace one with another ; as if he had said , Though you are the salt of the Earth , yet you must take care you be not too sharp and acrimonious . You must indeed preserve the World from corruption , but yet you must not exasperate it into passion and disorder ; for you must compose men to peace and quietness , and quench their combustions as well as inflame their Zeal and Devotion . And indeed the latter of these can never successfully be undertaken , unless at the same time , the former be provided for ; for Religion never takes place in mens hearts , nor brings forth fruits in their lives , when the spirits of men are imbroiled with heats and animosities . Men are not fit to consider of the counsels of the Gospel , nor to estimate the reason and importance of them , when their minds are in a flame , and their thoughts in an hurry . Nor if they were already perswaded of them , could they be in a temper to comply with them , or to make any fit expression of love and service towards God , whilst they are at variance with their Brethren , and therefore the Apostle tells us , the fruits of righteousness are sowen in peace , James 3. 18. And as peace is very advantagious to Gods service , so the making and procuring it is very honourable and comfortable to them that are imployed about it . They are under one of our Saviours Beatitudes , and he intitles them the Children of God in a peculiar manner , Mat. 5. 9. viz. as being those who especially imitate and resemble him . And one instance of the blessedness of such men is this , that they which make peace , commonly reap the fruits of it , both in the benign and kindly chearfulness of their own spirits , and in the fair and courteous usage they generally meet with from other men , as well as in the repose and quiet they enjoy when all the World is peaceable and still round about them ; whereas Makebates and Incendiaries torment themselves first before they torture other men , and besides , bring the fire home to their own Houses when they have inflamed other mens . The Good Christian therefore is not only peaceable himself , but a Peacemaker in his Parish , to which end he will in the first place discountenance all Whisperers , Eves-Droppers and Tale-Bearers as the pest of Society ; for these are the Bellows that blow up a spark into a flame . He will indeavour to prevent and take up Law-Suits , which commonly begin in passion and end in malice : for the decision of them rather immortalizes the quarrel than finishes the dispute ; and he that overcomes , very often like the Bee , destroys himself whilst he fastens his sting upon another . He sets a mark upon them that single themselves from the rest of their Neighbours , and divide into parties as men of a great deal of Pride , but of little Wit ; for a great and generous mind would be easily able to animate such a Society as a Parish , and render himself considerable in the whole without tearing it in pieces that he may lead a Faction . He detests and abhors all affected singularity , though the instance of it be in it self unblameable ( so long as it is not absolutely necessary ) because he considers such things first raise Jealousy , then provoke Emulation ; and at last end in alienation of affections . He indeavours that no new Opinions in Religion may be broached amongst the Neighbourhood , as knowing well there can be no new Gospel , or new way to Heaven , and he hath learnt by experience , that whilst men stand gazing after new lights they make halt in the race of virtue , and lose the way of peace , without which they shall never come at Heaven . He indeavours therefore to keep up the antient Landmarks , both in spiritual and temporal affairs ; but if any disputes be raised , he will presently bring Water to quench the Fire in the beginning , and by discreet and temperate Discourses incline both Parties to coolness and moderation , by representing the littleness of the matter in Controversy between them , the great benefit of Unity and Concord amongst Neighbours , and especially by putting them in mind of the approaches of Death , which will very shortly take away the subject of the Question , and the Disputants too . 6. Sixthly , Next to this and to the intent that his indeavours of making Peace may be the more successful , he will contrive to render his person acceptable and fit to be interposed in quarrels , by making himself remarkable for all other offices of Charity and Beneficence , such as relieving of the Poor to the very utmost of his ability , and by sympathizing with those he cannot help , by visiting the sick , counselling the weak and injudicious , comforting the disconsolate , vindicating the injured , rescuing the oppressed , and taking the part of the Widow and Fatherless ; by all which and several other good offices he will become a common Father and Friend to the whole Neighbourhood . Most of these things may be performed without much cost or trouble , or if they be chargeable either way , the expence will be abundantly recompensed by the delight that attends the discharge of them : for they are commonly as comfortable in the doing to those that undertake them , as they are beneficial to those for whose sake they are undertaken . Thus at a cheap rate a man becomes a Benefactor and a blessing to the times and places where he lives , and besides , doth a singular service to God , vindicating his Providence in the inequal distribution of his temporal blessings , and he renders Religion lovely in the Eyes of all the World , and he very effectually consults the comfort of his own Soul , giving proof to himself , that he loves God whom he hath not seen , because he loves his Brother whom he hath seen . 7. Seventhly and lastly , ( and to speak summarily ) it is the duty and the practice of a good Christian by all the means he can devise , to promote the welfare and prosperity of his Parish and Neighbourhood , not only because it is far more comfortable living amongst those who are in a prosperous condition ( as to their outward affairs ) in regard that moderate prosperity sweetens mens spirits and betters their temper , as much as pinching want and necessity , soures and disorders them : but also because generally God is better loved and served by men whose hearts are chearful and easy , than by the querulous and unhappy . In order therefore to the wealth and prosperity of the place where he dwells , the good Christian will in the first place take care to prevent the idleness of the Inhabitants by bringing in some manufacture or other ( if it be possible ) that so all hands may be set on work in some honest way of living ; for Idleness , besides that it makes a very ugly figure , clothing the slothful persons with Rags , it commonly inclines people to be great Eaters , having nothing else to do but to mind their Bellies , and so they become a sort of Caterpillars which devour other mens labours ; it also tempts them by their necessity to pilfer , cheat , lie and steal , and do any base action imaginable ; and moreover such people are generally envious , malicious , busy bodies , medlers in other mens matters , and in a word , being desperate in their fortunes , they are past fear and shame . Whereas on the other side , honest industry , besides that it is attended with the blessing of God , renders people modest , quiet , governable , chearful , good natured , and publick spirited . In the next place , and in pursuance of the same ends , the pious Parishioner will , as far as he is able , prevent tipling and drunkenness amongst his Neighbours , which is well known to be the common cause of want amongst the inferiour sort of People ; for this beastly way they will swill down presently that which might go a great way in the maintenance of their Families , besides , that the custom of it loses their time , softens and relaxes their Nerves , and makes them impatient of labour ; it raises their passions , and abates their discretion , and so disposes them to be quarrelsome with their Families when they come home ; and which is worst of all , renders them proud , insolent and ungovernable . Furthermore , the good man will indeavour ( if it be wanting , and the place be capable of it ) to get a good School setled in the Parish , which besides the great advantage of it , for the education of youth , doth generally inrich the place , and is more beneficial than a manufacture ; for this affords some imployment for those poor that are there already , and makes no more , nor draws other such to the place as manufacture usually doth . And lastly , to all this , a good Neighbour will indeavour to bring all vicious and incorrigible people to shame and punishment , than which nothing conduces more to the honour of Religion , to the peace of the Inhabitants , or the felicity of the place . There are notwithstanding some fond and incogitant people who think this course quite contrary to good Neighbourhood , and look upon those as the best Townsmen that will connive at mens Vices , and let every Body do what they list : but with their leave , as it is the greatest kindness toward such vicious persons , to make use of the provision which the wisdom of Laws hath made for their amendment , so he is the best Christian that discriminates between good and bad men , as well as the best Townsman who will not permit virtue and industry to be discouraged by the impudence and impunity of some lewd persons ; but so much for that . These things which I have now treated of in this Chapter , are a certain kind of lesser Morals , and the peculiar instances of that which I called Civil Piety ; But if the good Christian will ( as he ought ) take care of them , he will do at least a collateral service to Almighty God , by being a Benefactor to the World ; he will render the attendance upon Religion more easy , and make his own passage through the World towards Heaven the more quiet and comfortable , which is the thing aimed at all along in these Papers . THE END . 
A14408	----	Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies. Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English. 1602 Approx. 590 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 136 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A14408 STC 24727 ESTC S119134 99854341 99854341 19757 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A14408) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 19757) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 368:3) Acts of the dispute and conference holden at Paris, in the moneths of Iuly and August. 1566. Betweene two doctors of Sorbon, and two ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent tract, wherein the learned may take pleasure, and the ignorant reape knowledge. Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne, and diuided according to the daies. Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. English. Golburne, John. Vigor, Simon, d. 1575. Sainctes, Claude de, 1525-1591. Du Rosier, Hugues Sureau. L'Espine, Jean de, ca. 1506-1597. [8], 263, [5] p. Printed by Thomas Creede, London : 1602. A translation of: Actes de la dispute & conference tenue à Paris. The disputants, named in the preface, were Simon Vigor and Claude de Sainctes of the Sorbonne, and Hugues Sureau Du Rosier and Jean de L'Espine of the Reformed Church. The first leaf is blank except for signature-mark "A.". With a final errata leaf. Reproduction of the original in the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Religious disputations -- France -- Early works to 1800. 2006-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-10 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-11 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-11 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Acts of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris , in the Moneths of Iuly and August . 1566. Betweene two Doctors of Sorbon , and two Ministers of the Reformed Church . A most excellent Tract , wherein the learned may take pleasure , and the ignorant reape knowledge . Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne , and diuided according to the daies . Magna est veritas & praeualet . Ecclesiasticus . 33. 16. Behold how I haue not laboured only for my selfe , but for all them also that seeke knowledge . LONDON Printed by Thomas Creede . 1602. TO THE RIGHT Honorable Sir Thomas Egerton Knight : Lord Keeper of the great Seale of England : Chamberlaine of the Countie Palatine of Chester : and of her Maiesties most Honorable priuie Counsaile . I. G. wisheth all health , honour , and euerlasting happinesse . RIght Honourable , my good Lorde : If affectionate dutie shall be held presumption , or any taxe me of rashnesse , for still troubling your Lordship with my rude labors ; I plead mine excuse , with the Poet Affranius : who ( blamed for guilt of like crime to Traian ) yet dared to present him , with homely Poems : excusing himselfe still , with the curtesie of the Emperour , which as Princely accepted , as the other poorely offered : And so shrowded with the shelter of your honorable curtesie , I shall be shielded from the stormes of idle imputations , stop ( as did Affranius ) the mouthes of my Taxors ▪ and aduenture once more to present vnto your Lordship , my prison-night-watches , as a simple token of my thankfulnesse , and pledge of further dutie : then deeming my selfe happie , when I may acknowledge your honourable goodnesse , with any performance of dutie , or acceptable seruice to your Lordship , to whom , both my self , and poore endeuours , are wholy deuoted . The worthy and necessary vse of this Treatise , I leaue to the graue iudgment of learned Censors : and in all dutie and zeale , do offer it to your Lordships Patronage , & assure me of your like good ( as former ) acceptance . For a good vine yeeldes grapes , still answerable to it nature ▪ and an honourable mind , the fruits of an honorable disposition . Long liue , and prosper ( ho. Lord ) . Pater sis Patriae , & Ecclesiae , & Reipublicae charus . So in all humilitie , I take leaue . Fleete this 25. of March. 1602. Your Lordships most bounden in all dutifull affection ; Iohn Golburne . The Translator to the Christian Reader . AMongst all the meanes , prescribed by wisedome , to attaine the perfection of true knowledge , there is none ( good Reader ) in my poore conceit , more necessarie for the ignorant , next to the fountaine of life , the word of God , then the reading of Controuersies ; wherein the truth is debated , the reasons on both sides deduced , and laid open to the view , and Readers iudgement . For , as by striking together of the steele & flint , the fire is out forced : euen so by disputation and conference , the truth is boulted out , and decyded . But because it is hard for a blinde man to iudge of colours , and we being all blinde by nature , and ignorant of God and goodnesse , are of our selues vncapable of right iudgement in matters of faith : for flesh and bloud cannot attaine vnto it ; neither can the naturall man discerne the things of God : we must therefore vse the appointed meanes of our saluation ; namely , hearing , reading , and meditating of Gods sacred word : which is onely able to make vs wise vnto saluation , and to enlighten the eyes of the simple . So that by this touchstone , and faithfull inuocation of God , in the name and sole mediation of Christ Iesus , for the direction of his holy spirit ; wee shal be enabled to know all things , and to trye the true and pure Gold from the false and counterfeit : and then ( comparing the sayings and assertions of both sides , with the sincere & vndeceiueable milke of Gods word ) we shal be likewise able to discerne the spirit of God , from the spirit of Error : and discerning , shall perceiue the incomparable beautie of the one , and the vgly deformitie of the other . Which thing waighing with my selfe , and finding in this Treatise , both the deepnesse of Sathan , and the inuincible force of truth , which is the power of God vnto saluation of all true beleeuers , I resolued at the speciall instance of a religious friend , who had begun the Translation , to attempt , effect , and finish the same : which by diuine assistance , I haue faithfully performed , and here present it to thy view . Read it with consideration , consider thereof with iudgement , and iudge with discretion ; so shalt thou finde not onely pleasure , but much profit , in matters discussed of greatest moment . For which , and all things else , giue God the glory , make vse for thine instruction , and accept my poore endeuour ; whose desire was to do thee good . Farewell . Thine in the Lord , I. G. The Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following . FOr that I doubt not , but many persons ( filled with the commō brute of the conference should bee made at the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier , betweene the Doctors of the one part , and the Ministers of the other , appointed for that purpose ) desire to know the truth : and that others speake thereof diuersly , according to the reports thereof made vnto them , or their conceiued imaginations concerning the same : Me seemeth , that to satisfie the one , and take from the other all occasion of lying or giuing credit to lies : it should bee good to put briefly in writing all the matter as it passed : and likewise to declare , what was the motiue , & first occasion of the same . My Lord the Duke of Montpensier , who ( as each one knoweth ) is very zealous of his Religion , and dearely loueth his children ; seeing that his daughter the Duchesse of Buillon was departed from the Komish Religion , thenceforth to follow that of Iesus Christ : and that without chilling , shee still perseuered , and more and more increased in the knowledge and feare of God : in zeale , godlinesse , and all other good and commendable vertues ; ( his speech he had in the beginning with her , and other meanes he had since assaied , to reduce and call her backe from the way wherein shee was , nought preuailing ) : willed for a last remedie , to attempt if he could , to winne her by the meanes and remonstrance of a Doctor named Vigor , whom he much esteemed . And to the end that the said Lady should remaine more satisfied , hauing called my Lord of Buillon her husband , hee declared vnto him his minde , and said ; hee was contented that the said remonstrance should bee made to his daughter , in the presence of some Ministers ; as namely of Spina , & such others as she should please to choose : to the ende that had they any thing to say against the doctrine of the saide Vigor , they should alleadge it ; And if after they had conferred together , they were not confuted by him , and wholly vanquished , that his daughter should then abide in her opinion ; without that hee , or some others of his side would euer assay ought to diuert her . My Lord de Buillon promised to accomplish his commaund therein : and to shewe his obedience to him . Shortly after hee imparted the same to my Lord the Admirall ; by whose aduice , and other Lords which hee spake too , De Spina was suddenly sent for ; who beeing come vnto them , and hauing vnderstood all that aforesaid , said ; that hee hoped for little fruite of all this Conference ; considering the qualitie and humour of the man with whom hee was to deale : because hee is much more partiall for the Pope and his traditions , then zealous for the word of God , and truth of Iesus Christ . Which thing , those that were present did well approoue . Neuerthelesse , hee was purposed for two considerations , to present himselfe at the said Conference : the one , to support and stablish my said Lady de Buillon , against the Sophismes , and cauillations of the said Vigor : the other , to take from him the occasion to boast ( as his custome is ) that the Ministers durst not appeare before him . And then was the proceeding and order aduised of , which they should hold in the said Conference . And that the said De Spina should first require , that it might be authorized by the Kings permission : Afterwards , that to auoyd all confusion , it should bee made in the presence of a fewe persons ; Thirdly , that there should bee some certaine theame and subiect proposed , wherof they should conferre : Fourthly , that there should be two Moderators of the whole Action , and two others deputed , faithfully to collect all the reasons and arguments which should bee brought forth by the parties . All which things hauing beene proposed to my Lord the Duke of Buillon , as well by Monsieur the Admirall : as by the said De Spina , hee found them very reasonable , and promised to giue the best order he could to all the businesse : admonishing De Spina to be readie the first day of Iuly , 1566. for after dinner hee should make the said Conference . By meanes whereof , the same De Spina to prepare himselfe , went to finde out Monsieur Barbaste , Minister to the Queene of Nauarre , whom hee prayed to vouchsafe to accompany , and second him in the said conference . Which he graunting , both two , together with three other Gentlemen , left by my said Lord de Buillon to conduct them ; went after dinner , the day and yeare aboue said , to the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier ; where when they were arriued , the Duke de Buillon aduertised thereof by one of the said Gentlemen , came vnto them in the Hall where they were . And speaking to De Spina , demaunded of him ( induced as is likely by the Doctors , assembled in the chamber whence hee came ) if he were purposed and resolued to pray , after the custome of the reformed Churches , before they began the said conference . He answered yea : and that neither he , nor his companion , could not , nor ought to attempt a thing of such importance , as to handle the Mysteries of Christian Religion ; without first being prepared therevnto by the inuocation of Gods name . That heard , hee entred the chamber where the Doctors were assembled : and hauing communicated to them the answere of the said Ministers , they appointed Doctor Ruze , to declare vnto them , that they would not be present at their prayers , and that no more reasonable it was , that they should bee there , then they at their Masse . The Ministers answered : that they could not with good conscience begin the conference , before they had prayed vnto God : and that it was in the Doctors choise & pleasure to be present , or absent at their praiers ; And they for their part would content themselues to pray in the place & assembly , wherin the conference should be made . But neuerthelesse , that their prayers , which are ( as they themselues confesse ) conformable to the pure word of God ; and their Masse , wherin are many things contrary therevnto , ( as they may easily know and iudge that will trie and examine it by the rule of the scripture ) were not like things ; And so , by meanes of the impietie and Idolatrie which is in their Masse , they could not any way communicate thereat , without offence to God , and making themselues highly culpable before him : but that he , and the other Doctors his companions could not be letted by any such difficulties to be present at their prayers : For as much as there was no article which ( by their owne confession ) 〈◊〉 not holy , and according to God. Herevpon replied Doctor Ruze , that the Ministers staied on a thing of small moment . And they answered , that the principall exercise of Christian Religion , was prayer : and that it is a necessarie mean to obtaine the fauour and grace of God ; without which , men cannot attaine successe , nor any good speed in all their workes : and that therfore the omission thereof was verie pernitious . And that they for their part were abashed , that he , which called himselfe a Doctor , and Diuine , should make so litle account of praier ; which is the true practise , fruite , and vse , of all the knowledge which can be had of God , and his word : and that therein one may know what was the iudgement of them , which measure diuinitie by Idle and vaine speculations . Then said he vn-them : that the Duke de Montpensier , would neuer suffer , he should so be braued in his owne house : nor that it should bee said , that the Ministers had made their prayers . Wherevnto answered the Ministers , that to braue , was a thing contrarie to their profession . And that so farre off were they from brauing of Princes , ( to whom they owed all honour , feare , and obedience ) that they would condemne themselues if so be they had vsed it , to a man of the basest qualitie in the world . And added moreouer , that the Doctors , and such others , which charged them with such slaunders towards Princes , to stirre vp , and moue them against them , should be assured they should once answere before God for the same . Herevpon spake Doctor Ruze , and demaunded of the Ministers , why they stood so stifly vppon that point of prayer . They f●● answere proposed vnto him ; first , that the end of the Conference , was to manifest the true meaning of the scripture , and make the hearers vnderstand it : which thing could not be done , without the spirit of God ; who enlightneth the minde and vnderstanding to comprehend it ; and openeth the mouthes to expresse the same : And therefore it behoueth to implore and obtaine his grace by prayers . Afterwards , that God commaunded all those that want wisedome , to aske it of him ; and to seeke what they would finde ; and to knocke , if they would haue him to open vnto them . All which things cannot otherwise bee obtained , then by prayers . And therefore concluded , that for this cause they were necessary . They alledged further , that all things ought to be reduced to the glory of God : and that inuocation was therefore requisite in the beginning , and thankesgiuing at the ending and consummation of all our workes , nor more , nor lesse , then wee beginne and finish our repast , in blessing and praising the name of God. Then said Doctor Ruze vnto them , that they would not hinder them to pray vnto God : but that they should do it in their hearts . And they answered : that it was not sufficient ; but that it behoued to pray also with the mouth , as S. Paul commandeth : withdraw your selues then into some place apart ( said hee ) and make your praiers all alone . They answered : that in such an act , it ought not so to be done : and that they were bound by the cōmandement of God , to make their light to shine before men , to the end , that seeing their good works , they might haue means to glorifie God , and to be therby edified . Also that in so doing , they might giue occasion of scandall to their neighbours , confirming the euil opiniō imprinted by their aduersaries in some of their doctrine and exercises : to wit : that by reason of the errors and blasphemies which were therein ; they dared not to publish the same : and that to quite them of this slaunder , meet it was , that as they spake in publike , their praiers should be also in publike . To be briefe , that they ought not , neither could they with reason refuse that which the King had graunted vnto them in the Conference of Poissy : where , in all the assemblies there made , they were alwayes permitted to pray to GOD publikely , before they spake of any matter . And added for their last reason , that it was verie needefull to comprehend in theyr prayers them , and all those that should be present at the said conference : to the end , that God might grant grace both to them and others , to dispoile them wholly of all their passions : and that there should bee nothing which might hinder them , to iudge rightly of whatsoeuer should be proposed on the one side , & on the other : And that he would also make the hearers docible and attentiue to gather to themselues some profit thereof . I shame here to recite one word which scaped from Doctor Ruze in this behalfe : who in contempt of God , and his seruice , said : that if the Ministers would goe pray , he would go pisse during the time of prayer . Wherevpon the Ministers cryed out , saying : What resolution ? what counsell ? what good word can be hoped for , of a heart filled with so an apparant contempt of God ? My Lord the Duke of Buillon , and the said Doctor Ruze , seeing the Ministers setled , and firme in this , not to enter into any conference before prayers were made , in the presence of the assembly , where the same should be made : after they had reported the same to my Lord de Montpensier , and the Doctors which were with him ; they purposed to send them backe ; and that on this condition they should not conferre with them . Herevpon they departed : and as they were now arriued at the little Bridge of our Lady , they called them backe , and they forth with returned ; supposing they would graunt them what they requested . But herein were they deceiued . For Doctor Ruze came towards them to the gate , and for a finall resolution , said vnto them : that if they would pray , they would giue them a house neare at hand : but that my Lord de Montpensier would not permit , they should make them in his house ; nor that any of his family should be present thereat . Wherevnto they answered , that they now yeelded lesse vnto them , then in the beginning they had done : and therefore they could not answere otherwise then they had answered . Thē Doctor Ruze addressed particularly his speech to the Minister De Spina ; to whom in scoffing maner , he said two things : that he well saw , he had no great desire to enter disputations : and that in times past he had bene of their company ; but that he was now cut off from them . Wherevnto answered De Spina , that had he fled the conference , he would not in that great heate , haue come eight long miles , nor left his Church , which was to him more deare and acceptable then any other thing , to finde them in their owne houses . And as touching his departing from them , that hee thanked God hee had withdrawne himselfe from them : and that it was the greatest good , that euer happened to him . And to the end that hee and his companions should no way doubt but that hee was readie to conferre with them , he shewed them a way , by which both parties might be satisfied : to wit ; that they should confer together by writing : shewing , that it should be much more profitable ; for as much as by that meane , they should withstand all contentions : that the arguments and answeres should better be meditated and digested : that many should thereby be edified , and in so dooing , there should be no daunger , that by adding or diminishing , they should bee any way altered . Ruze answered , that they could write nothing which hath not beene written . And De Spina replied ; that they could not also speake ought , which hath not bene spoken . This was the end and conclusion of al their speeches . Wherby may be seene , what will the Doctors had to conferre with the Ministers : to whom , at their arriuall ( to stop their passage ) they proposed such a condition , as they were well assured , should neuer be accepted of them : namely to enter into publike conference of the scripture , before they had publikely prayed to God in the place and assembly where it should be made . Moreouer one may also iudge , what was their intention , by the order they had giuen , to direct their conference . For in stead of procuring some place and rest to the said Ministers , which were come vnto them ; there were at the least , a hundred persons of all qualities about the Ministers , to astonish them : some by scoffes : others by iniuries : others by threats : So that , had it not bene the care which the three gentlemen of the Duke of Buillon had of them , and to driue them often back , which approached too neare them ; they had bene in danger to haue suffered outrage . One may also imagine , how the Doctors do endeuour to serue God , and pray vnto him : seeing they cannot endure him to be prayed vnto in their presence . And for conclusion , what vnderstanding can they haue of the scripture ? with what faithfulnesse can they handle it ? And what dexteritie and facultie can they haue to preach it , considering they disdaine , and thinke it straunge , that for the obtaining of all these things , God should be prayed vnto in their presence ? As though their sufficiencie were in themselues , and that it came not from him who is the wel-spring and author of all light . It followeth : of the occasions declared in the precedent Preface , and first of the Dispute on Wednesday the ninth of Iuly , 1566. Albeit the Doctors by the meanes heere before declared , had sought occasion to hinder the conference which was to be made betweene them and the Ministers , in the house of my Lord De Montpensier : Neuerthelesse , to auoyd the euil opinion that might be conceiued of them , by reason of their refusall , to enter into the said conference , they raised a rumour , that the Ministers , perceiuing themselues weake , and that their doctrine was vncertaine , had fled the combat . Which thing beeing come to the eares of the King and Queene , Mounsieur the Admirall , seeing it might bring some scandall and damage to the reformed Churches , if it were not presently met with : knowing also , that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers , began to excuse them : assuring the King and the Queene , that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors , and to defend by the scripture , the confession of their Churches , in what place soeuer , and before such persons , as they would it should bee . So that they were permitted to pray vnto God ( as they had required ) in the beginning of their conference , and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed , or other better , as they should thinke good : to the end to auoyd all wranglings , and the confusion of voyce and cries , as is ordinarily seene in schooles , and disputes of Sophisters , and contentious persons . My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall , found them verie reasonable ; and perswaded ( as it is certaine ) first by the spirit of God , and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart ; which thrust him forward , with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing , sollicited the King and Queene , that by theyr commission , and vnder their authoritie , the said Conference might bee established : And so wrought he , that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded . By meanes whereof , hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures , they consulted together , of the order should bee held in the same conference . And resolued in the end , that my Lord De Neuers , and my Lord the Duke of Buillon , should bee the chiefe Iudges therein ; and that of the one side , and the other , should some Gentlemen be present , to bee witnesses and beholders , of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same . And further , that there should be two Notaries of both sides , of the litle fort at Paris , which should put in writing , and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged , and proposed by the parties . These conditions thus conceiued , and agreed of among the said Lords ; were also accepted by the Doctors , Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie , and by the Ministers De Spina , & Sureau , of the other partie : Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly , 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers : where in his presence , and of other Lords which were with him , ( after prayers made by the Ministers , in the absence of the Doctors , who because they would not be present , had withdrawn themselues apart ) Doctor Vigor spake , and began by protestation : That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers , was not to be instructed in any point of Religion : nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels , and chiefly that of Trent , by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes : And that they for their part , were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church : but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier , ( who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon , had required the said Conference ) they were come thither to the end , to satisfie him , & declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke , those which are thence departed . Wherevpon ( their speeches ended ) the Ministers speaking , protested likewise , that , that which had led thē to conference with the Doctors , was not , because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession , which they knew to bee drawne frō the pure word of God : but that it was to maintaine the same , against the Sophistries and cauillations of thē which would impugne it , and to retaine Madame de Buillon , in the good and holy institution , which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her . Thus the protestations on both sides made , the Ministers supposed that the Doctors ( thē following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier , and the desire of Madame de Buillon ) should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points , the Supper , and the Masse . But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne , begin a farre off to make their Trenches , and approaches : to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points , they began to lay their foundation , by the authoritie of the Church : wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith , and generally of all the holy Scripture . And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors . And the answeres giuen by the Ministers ; De Sainctes beginning , and De Spina answering ; as followeth . Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris . Question . WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion ? Answere . Vpon the word of God. Question . What do you vnderstand by the word of God ? Answere . The writings of the Prophets and Apostles . Question . Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible , as well of the olde , as the new Testament , attributing vnto all , one like authoritie ? Answere . No : but following antiquitie , wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes , and the Apocripha : calling those Canonicall , vpon whose doctrine , the faith and all Christian religion is builded : And those Apocripha , which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith ; but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life , and manners of Christians : by reason of the goodly , and notable sentences which are comprised in them . Question . By what meanes doo you know , that the one is Canonicall , the other Apocripha ? Answere . By the spirit of God , which is a spirit of discretion , and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated , to make them capable , to bee able to iudge , and discerne things spirituall , and to know and apprehend the truth ( when to them it is proposed ) by the witnesse and assurance , which thereof it giueth them in their hearts . And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing , which is in the eye : euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth , and from all things in generall , which may be false , absurd , doubtfull , or indifferent , when as we are furnished with the spirit of God , and guided by the light , which it lightneth in our hearts . Question . Yea : but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God , which hath it not . And we see by Histories , that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side , and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward ●euelations , which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit : Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke , or doctrine , to the witnesse of the spirit of God , which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart . Answere . Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger , in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle ; not to beleeue indifferently all spirits , but to proue and diligently to examine them , before wee receiue or approue what they propose . And the triall to be made in such a case is , first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth , which shall be declared vnto vs : or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs : For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God ; it is true : as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn , That he which seeketh the glory of God , is truth , and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him . Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion , and the analogie of faith , ( as saith S. Paul ) it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion . Obiection . All say , and may say as much thereof : and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument ( as I conceiue by effect and other proofes ) how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon . Moreouer , this answer passeth the limits of the proposition : For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion . And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me , that the Scripture was of God , and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof . Answere . It is easie to iudge , if the end of the doctrine proposed , tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God. As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures , wholly to settle and repose themselues in God ; to resort to him in all their necessities , and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires , to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue . This presupposed , no man could doubt , that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end , should not be good and receiuable . And to that which hath bene proposed : that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not : for that the first thing proposed , was : What is the foundation of our Religion ? Wherunto it was answered : That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles . Obiection . This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists , yea also to the Deistes , which say more then all others , that they seeke the glorie of God : and all that which in the answere is written . And generally each man that should vse the like saying , should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed , the first excepted . But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture , before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture , and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof . And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost ; and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion . Answere . The Deistes , and other here●iques cannot bee holpen ( by the foresayd answere ) for confirmation of their errors : Forasmuch as the Desties , denying Jesus Christ , cannot glorifie God : seeing that to glorifie the Father , it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne ; no more also other heretiques : For that , not knowing the trueth , nor consequently Iesus Christ ( which is the way , the life , and the trueth ) they cannot know nor glorifie God. And touching that obiected , that the answere was from the purpose ; that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere . And for the latter point of the obiection , wherein it is sayde : that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God , is to him the foundation of Religion : that was not answered ; But that the foundation of all true Religion , is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles . Of the trueth of which , all the Church in generall , and the members thereof in particular , are assured , by the witnes●e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God. Obiection . Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good : and it seemeth , that the answere doeth containe ( as it were ) a mockerie . For it is certaine : that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man , that man is no more euill , nor an heretique . But wee search out the beginning of trueth , what it shou'd bee . And touching the reply , which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion . There is no great difference : For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets , that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion . For that is the foundation of knowledge , whereupon euery particular man knoweth , and sayeth his Religion is founded . Answere . The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded : and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke : For in such a Conference as this , where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God : Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie . And as touching reuelation , that it is equall to the Scripture ( which is the foundation of Religon ) wee denie it , and say : they bee things different , although they be conioyned together , and that they doo follow the one the other , euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay : Behold my couenant with them ( sayth the Lord ) my Spirit that is in thee , and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seede . And that which followeth : From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost , and the word . Obiection . For conclusion of this Conference , I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections . And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word , and of the holy Ghost , out of the text of Esay : they are things from the purpose , and new matter . And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person ( whereof was the question ) vnto that of the Prophet Esay : who had other proofes that the Spi●●t spake by him , and had oft times made demonstration thereof ▪ And of all that aboue said , I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian . Answere . We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other , to the hearers and readers . And for the passage of Esay produced , the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet , nor of the spirit , communicated vnto him : but of the spirit , and the words which God promised to all his people : with whom he made his couenant . And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation ; we make no doubt thereof . But we say , that the principall and most assured was , that , which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit , as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie . Obiection . Be it so , that by the person of Esay be spake to his people , it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first . And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say , to his Church vniuersal . Not that he wil that euery one , yea , being in this Church , may brag and vsurpe to haue this spirit particularly promised vnto him . And as touching the particular inspiration of Esay , it was not founded on his onely fancie , and presumption : but on the assurance that God gaue him by a worke supernaturall : as is said in the 6. Chapter . And further , it was not yet sufficiently founded to bee beleeued , as hauing inspiration , had he not shewed the same by other effects , and by other Prophesies already come to passe . As it behooueth euery Prophet should doo , before he were beleeued : But leauing all those things as farre fetched , and from the first proposition , I referre the iudgement as before . Answere . There is not one of the Church , if he be a ture member therof , vnto whom the spirit of God is not communicated : As S. Paul , and S. Iohn in his first Catholique Epistle teacheth . And as touching the pretended presumption , there is great difference betweene the presumption and imaginations of the spirit of man ( which is but darkenesse , and of it selfe knoweth nothing of the thing of God ) and the reuelations of the holy Ghost , which are certaine and assured . And where it is said , that the answeres are farre off from the first proposition ; if it be so , the dema●nds are so also . Obiection . The conclusion is , if each one ought to be beleeued in saying hee hath a particular reuelation of the holy Ghost , without otherwise shewing , that they are holy Scriptures : and that there is difference amongst them , let euery one iudge if the demands and answeres be pertinent to this difficultie , or no. And forasmuch as some of the newe doctrine doo shew no proofe , more then others , of their particular inspirations , whether the one ought to be more beleeued then the other concerning the same . Answere . By the former answeres it hath beene declared , how the reuelations pretended by particular persons , ought to be examined by the meanes , by which men may iudge whether they be of the spirit of God , or no. Then spake Doctor Vigor , saying : that in the discourse aforesaid , he had vnderstood many sayings contained in the answers of the Minister , which were against the word of God : as when he said , that it behooueth first to honour the Sonne before the father : Which the said Vigor reproouing , the said Spyna maintained that thing to bee true : affirming , such proposition to be grounded and contained in the holy Scripture ; as in the Gospel , and first Catholique Epistle of S. Iohn . Vnto which Vigor replyed ; that in the said places , the word ( First ) is not found . Neuertheles , least he fall on that which hath beene put forth and proposed in the beginning of the conference , he wil not now enter into the confutation of that saying : reseruing it to the end of all the conferences . Answere . The said Spyna required that Vigor should quote the places of the Scripture , which hee pretended to bee contrarie to that was contained in his answere . And where it is said , that it first behoueth to glorifie the Sonne before the Father ( according as it is written in the places aboue noted ) for confirmation of his saying , hee proposeth this reason , founded on the Scripture . We cannot know the Father , if we haue not knowne the Sonne . Wee cannot glorifie the Father , if we haue not knowne him . Therefore it followeth ; that the knowledge and glory of the Sonne , is a degree to come to the knowledge and glory of the father : which being referred by the said Vigor , to be more amply handled in the end and conclusion of all the conference , the said Spyna is so contented . Obiection . The sayd Vigor ( without wading further in this dispute ) obiecteth : that by the same reason alledged by the said De Spyna , It followeth : that it first behooueth to honour the Father , before the Sonne : for by the Father wee come to the knowledge of the Sonne : as it appeareth by that which our Lord sayd to Saint Peter : Caro & sanguis non reuelauit tibi : sed pater meus qui in Coelis est . Flesh and blood hath not reuealed this vnto thee , but my Father which is in the heauens . Where it is manifest , that the heanenly Father did reueale to Saint Peter , that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God. Whereupon the sayd Vigor doeth thus argue . If the reason of the sayd De Spyna bee good : by the Father wee know the Sonne : it behooueth then to honour the Father before the Sonne . Answere . To follow the order of the knowledge we may haue of Iesus Christ , and of his Father proposed vnto vs in S. Iohn : It behooueth to beginne by the Sonne , and from the Sonne to come to the Father . For Saint Phillip , hauing once required that hee would shew vnto him ▪ and his other companions , his Father , hee said vnto him : Phillip , hee that hath seene me , he hath seene my Father . To teach them , that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father , is the precedent knowledge of the Sonne : which may bee also confirmed by that which is else where written : where Iesus Christ saieth : That no man knoweth the Father but the Sonne onely , and hee to whom the Sonne will reueale him . And to answere the authoritie of Saint Matthew , alledged by the sayd Vigor , the sayd De Spyna sayeth : that in the text by him produced , there is no mention made of the knowledge of the Father , nor of the meane to come vnto it . But onely of the reuelation made by the grace of GOD , and his holy Spirite vnto Saint Peter , and his other fellowes , to know IESVS CHRIST , and the Father in him . Whereupon Vigor sayde : hee referred himselfe to the hearer and reader , that his obiection is not answere , dreseruing for another Conference , to treat more amply of that point ( if hee will maintaine it ) least hee should fall vpon that which hath beene formerly proposed ; whereunto the sayd De Spyna answered , that hee so agreed . The sayde Vigor ( vpon an answere made by the sayde De Spina : where hee putteth difference betweene the certaine reuelation made by the Lord to a particular person , and the holy Scripture ) addeth : that hee is abashed of the same answere , considering that men beleeue not the holy Scripture : But in that they are acertained , that the Lord is authour thereof , who cannot lye . Then likewise , that if a particular man haue assurance , that the reuelation is made vnto him by the Lorde : or else , that one is assured of the reuelation , made to another : as much is hee bound to giue faith to the reuelation , as to the Scripture . The which saying also , hee will not ( as hee may ) handle and declare at large : but come presently to the first question , which is not yet resolued . And prayeth the sayd De Spina to set forward the same . Answere . Where the sayde Vigor is abashed , that the sayde De Spina should say in one of his answeres , That the reuelation of the Lord and the word , were things different , the same is befalne him for not well conceiuing the sence of the saying : For De Spina will not put difference touching the certainty , betweene the true reuelations of the Lord , and the Word : which ( proceeding from him ) is as true , as the reuelation ; And the reuelation reciprocally , as true , as the Word . Yet doth it not therefore follow , that the word , and the reuelations of the spirit of the Lord ( by the which we may be conducted to the vnderstanding of the word ) are not things different : and that the one doth not go before the other . And where the said Vigor prayeth the said De Spina to hasten to the point , he answereth : That he cannot else where ground his answeres , then vpon the demaundes which be made vnto him . Reply . Whereunto the said Vigor replyed : that hee referred himselfe touching the sence , to that which is touched in the answere of the said De Spina . And where he saith , that the word goeth before the reuelation : that is of no value to make difference vpon the question proposed . And to come to the point : the said Vigor demaundeth , whether a man may be assured that he hath reuelation from the Lord , that a booke , is a booke of the holy Scripture ? and when he may iudge assuredly of his inward inspiration ? Also , how he can assure any of this inspiration giuen him of the Lord ? Answere . Touching the first Article of the last demaund : It is not a thing impertinent to distinguish the scripture from the interpretation thereof : ina●much as they bee things diuers , and diuers gifts of the Lord. And to answer to the question proposed , how a particular man before the reuelation and inward testimonie of the spirit of God in his heart , may acknowledge that it is Canonicall . The spirit of God varieth not from himselfe . And abiding in one particular man , he wil acknowledge the Scripture which is come from him ▪ and beareth his markes . And for answere to the second demand , hee also saith : that the selfe same spirit , beeing likewise in a third person , will acknowledge both that the word , and the reuelation are of him , for the reasons alledged : That is to say , that the spirit of God in diuers persons is alwayes equall and like vnto himselfe . Obiection . This is no full satisfaction to the first question proposed : by the which it was demaunded , how some man may iudge in himselfe that hee hath the holy Ghost , to discerne one Booke to be the holy Scripture , and another not , but Apocrypha : and how he may declare vnto another , that he hath his inspiration from God. Answere . The spirit of God , is called a seale in the scripture : therefore is it , that the first effect which it produceth in the heart of him vnto whom it is communicated , is to assure him of his presence . As for assuring a secōd person of the reuelation that one hath receiued of the spirit of God , it is easie : Forasmuch as the spirit of God which openeth the mouth of the one to speake , doth also open the eares of the other to listen to his word , and the heart to beleeue it , & to be perswaded thereof ▪ So that betweene the maister , and the scholler , between the teacher and the hearer , when they be both furnished and enlightened by the Spirit of God , there is alwayes one mutuall consent to acknowledge one another . Obiection . Such certaintie , is a great incertaintie . And there is not any of what sect soeuer , which doeth not assure himselfe to haue the holy Ghost , and the trueth on his side : which is a foolish presumption . How can a man distinguish a presumption , from a true inspiration ? Answere . S. Iohn Chrisostome saith : that in vaine a man boasteth of the spirit , without the word : which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies , and to iudge of all things , which heretiques & others would propose , vnder the authoritie & tytle of the Spirit of God. For as by the spirit we know the true sence of the word : so do we also mutually acknowledge by the word , who those be , which haue the spirit of God or no. Obiection . This is no answere to the question ; For the question is not , to examine the doctrine by the word : but the question is to know , whether it be the word of God , by which a man will examine and approoue a doctrine . And how a man shall iudge assuredly that hee hath a reuelation of the Lord , that , that is the word of God. Answere . If he be faithfull , therefore shall he iudge by the Spirit of God , which is in him : as in him , which telleth the same vnto him . And if he be vnfaithfull , as impossible it is that he should iudge thereof , as it is to a blinde man to iudge and discerne of colours presented vnto him : Forasmuch saieth S. Paul. ) as the Spirit of God is he , by whom wee know , and iudge the things that are of God. Obiection . Yet is not this an answere to the question proposed , let the iudgement thereof be left to the readers and hearers . Now make they another demaund , that is to say : Whether we be not very certaine by the word of God , that the Lord doeth assist his Church , and will assist it , vnto the end of the world . And whether it be not a more assured thing to stay on the consent and iudgement of the Church , touching the determination of the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture , & the distinction of them , from the Apocrypha : then to leane vpon his owne iudgement : esteeming it to bee an inward inspiration ; whereof a man can make no proofe : but supposeth that he hath the holy Ghost . Answere . The Doctors doo confound the opinions which fantasticke men may haue , with the witnesses and reuelations of the holy Ghost : although betweene those two , there is as much distance , as is from heauen to earth : And as touching the consent of the Church , suppose that it proceedeth from the spirit of God : Infallable it is , & also certaine , that particular reuelations may be , as of Esay and other Prophets . And forasmuch as the one and the other , do proceed from one selfe same Authour ( which is the Spirit of trueth ) The certaintie of the reuelations of God his Spirit , made vnto all the Church in generall , and to euery member of it in particular , is of one selfe same moment . Obiection . The Minsters cannot shew to the Catholiques , nor to any others , that they are not fantasticall : for asmuch as they make no proofe ( more then do other sects ) of the reuelation of the holy Ghost made vnto them : and as touching that is said : suppose that it proceedeth frō the Spirit of God. They doubt it seemeth of the assistance of the holy Ghost in the Church of God : which saith S. Paul ) is Columna & firmamētū veritatis , the pillar & ground of truth . And a thing it is to be wel considered , that they are more certain of the assistāce of the Lord in one particular person , then in the Church vniuersal . And where they say : that to know the truth , the holy Spirit assisteth as well euery member of the Church , as the whole church : By that might a man conclude , that the particular faithful could neuer erre : & that , the particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth , as the vniuersal church . Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō , of like waight with the iudgement of the church ; they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith : where it is thus written . We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall , and very certaine rules of our faith , not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church : as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost : which maketh vs to discerne them , frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes . By the said article men may see , how much more they attribute to themselues , then to all the vniuersall church . Which article , they now contradict : attributing as much to the one , as to the other . And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed , the said article hath been taken away , as is seene by that which De Spina , hath now brought hither , imprinted at Geneua , 1564. Whereby it appeareth , that they be retracted : as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church , thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt . Which thing is very reasonable : seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall , & not to euery particular person . Answere . If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke , although they haue the word of God : more shall the Doctors bee holden for such , in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God. Touching the second point , where the Doctors reproach the Ministers , that they doo doubt ( as it seemeth by their answere ) of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church . The answer is : that that is not the doubt : but to know which is the true Church . And touching the third point , whereof ( say the Doctors ) might bee inferred , that particular persons could not erre . The consequence is naught : for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons , and in this case they may faile and erre : as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him . To the fourth point , the Ministers do answere : that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession : for that comparison is made in the answere , of two reuelations of the holy Ghost : the one made to the bodie , and the other to the members : which they maintaine to bee of like waight , touching the certaintie thereof . And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite , which is the cause of the Churches consent , which doth follow as the effect thereof . Now so it is , that the cause being preferred before his effect : there is great reason , that the reuelation of God his spirit , compared with the consent of his Church , be preferred vnto it : as the cause , to the effect which it produceth . And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions , printed at diuers times , and by diuers Printers ; they shall bee answered , when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly . Obiection . Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church : as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons . Of whom likewise it may bee doubted , whether they bee members of the Church . For the other point , where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession , it seemeth in shew , that there is contradiction : for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō , with the consent of the church : as by their answere appeareth . Also that which is alledged , that reuelation is cause of consent ; to preferre it to that , as the cause to the effect , seemeth to serue to small purpose : for it is , as if one shuld say , that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God , and the holy scripture . For very certaine it is , that reuelation goeth before the word , and scripture . And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession , ( as euery one may easily iudge ) the authors thereof , speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations : as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit , then that which is of the iudgement of the Church . And touching an other point ; where it is said , that particular persons may sometimes faile , when the holy Ghost doth leaue them ; By that wee may conclude , that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons : because we may doubt of them , whether they be destitute of God his spirit , or no , which cannot be done of the Church . Wherefore more sure it is , to stay vpon the Church , ( infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost ) then vpon priuate pretended inspirations . And so do the Catholikes therein , neuer following their priuate iudgement , and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke . But rather those , which preferre their proper iudgement , which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration . The Doctors require one text of the scripture , by the which , the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular , as it is to the Church vniuersall , to know , and iudge , and discerne which are the scriptures . Answere . Touching the first point . As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so : So do they not also approue them all faithful , who boast themselues to be so . For the second point : the comparison of the Doctors is not proper , which thus they haue made : as who should say , that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God , &c. Forasmuch as the word of God , & all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles , are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God , & that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other , then is betweene Genus and Species . And touching that which is added in this article , that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture . It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing ; and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings : for the vnderstanding of them . Touching the first , we confesse they goe before the Scripture . And touching the second , wee say : that they follow the same . For the third article , the Ministers doo answere : that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person , or whether it bee withdrawne , by the things which he proposeth , when they bee reduced to the word of God , and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde . Touching the demand , it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written . That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely : let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said : that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen , to know and discerne the things which bee of God. And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull , as water vpon the earth . And in Ioel likewise the second , and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn 2. vnder the name of Oyntment , and in many other places . Obiection . The places heere-aboue alledged , make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all , to iudge of the doctrine : otherwise , euen women , and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine , as the Prophets ▪ and Apostles . To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth : Nunquid omnes Prophetae , &c. Are all Prophets ? hee putteth downe expresly : that the discerning of Spirites , is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures : and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull , but particular to some . Answere . The consequence which the Doctors gather , is nothing worth : forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others . And some also are better exercised in the Scripture , then others . Touching the place of Saint Paul , 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say , It maketh nothing against them : forasmuch as the Spirit of prophec●e , and the spirit of discretion are different gifts : as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter . The second dayes Dispute , beeing Wednesday , the tenth of Iuly . THE Doctors required , that their protestations the day before made , might be registred , which was such ; That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church , from the Apostles time hitherto : decided and determined by holy E●umenicall and generall Councells : holding them for certaine and indubitable : and that all doctrine to the contrary was false . But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier , and Madam de Buillon his daughter , they were ready to make knowne by the verey ex●resse word of God , interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells , that their doctrine , wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed , is sound and wholesome . And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie ▪ is perni●ious and damnable . And that this Conference is by way of instruction , and not of Dispute . The Ministers likewise protested , that they assembled not with the Doctors , for any doubt they had , that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessiō of faith , is not certain and true , and founded vpon the word of God : as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession . And doo beleeue , that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto , is damnable , and to be reiected : yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it . And as touching themselues , they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine , then such as they follow , and haue learned of Iesus Christ : whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church . It was declared by my Lord of Neuers , that he desired ( after the obiections and answeres ) there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other , of that was conferred of the day before . Following which remonstrance the Doctors say : that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture , or not : and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall , from one Apocrypha , or Ecclesiasticall , a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion , or priuate and particular inspiration : for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance , that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost , without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall . And also that God , albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation : yet hath he ordained a certaine meane , whereby faith is obtained , which is a reuealed truth : that is to say , by hearing of the word of God , preached by lawfull Ministers , sent by the Pastors of the true Church : as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes . 4. appeareth . If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee , by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same , according to the ordinary meane , to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured , that the word by which faith is obtained , hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church . And by consequence , to be first assured of the church , before his own inward reuelation , following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed . They say further , that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is , when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church . And contrariwise , that euery pretended inward inspiration , particular and priuate , is a false perswasion , if it bee different from the common consent of the Church : For the spirite of God is not particular , but common . And say moreouer , that to finde out a false doctrine , it behoueth to examine the same , to knowe whether it bee priuate or common , euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn . 8. saying : Qui de se loquitur , mendacium loquitur . Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe , and of his owne proper inspiration , is a lyer . And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel ; Sonne of man , prophesie against the Prophets of Israel , that prophesie : and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart , heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God : Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit , and haue seene nothing . And afterward , they haue seene vanitie , and lying diuination , saying : The Lord saieth it : and the Lord hath not sent them : and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie . And the verses following doo serue to the purpose . Which false Prophets said , they had an inward reuelation , and the word of God. They say also , and let it be well wayed , that the proppe of Religion , grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration , is the foundation of many Sects in our time , as of Anabaptists , and Suencfildians : who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations , and alledge the same texts , to serue them for foundation of their doctrine , which the Ministers yesterday alledged : that is to say , Ieremy in the third Chapter , and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul. 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering , haue confessed : that by the onely tradition of the Church , wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture , in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers , as Saint Ierome , who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church , and by the same did knowe , that there bee foure Gospels . As much thereof saith Origen , recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament , saying : I haue learned by tradition , that there bee foure Gospels . And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke , which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration . And Saint Augustine , Liber Confess . cap. 25. vseth these wordes : Veritas tua domine , non mea ; nec illius aut illius , sed omnium nostrum , quos ad communionem aduocas : terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus , ne priuemur ea . Thy truth ô Lord , not mine , nor of him or him , but of all vs , whom thou callest to communion : terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate , least wee be depriued thereof . And touching the bookes of the old Testament , which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation ; the Doctors doo shewe , that before Saint Augustines time , or ( at leastwise ) in his time , in the Church vniuersall , all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction , were holden and receiued for Canonicall : as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage , where S. Augustine was ▪ And also the Councell of Laodicia . Now thus say the Doctors , the Fathers which were present in these Councels , ( if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes ) they had it , or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others . The Ministers say , that they iudge by their inward reuelation , that they be not Canonicall . The Doctors leaue it to iudgement , which men ought rather beleeue : whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers , receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now : or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers . They adde further : that they submit themselues to proue , that the auncient Fathers , yea neare the time of the Apostles ( as Ireneus , S. Ciprian , Origen , S. Ierome , S. Augustine ▪ and others ) doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers : yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes . And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine , Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall . And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide . Cap. 18. To know then , whether a man haue the spirit of God , to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture , he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church : for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect : and the experience may bee made , is an argument sufficient to conuince , that the faithfull by inward inspiration , cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes , from the pretended Apocrypha . Which might easily bee verified , would the cause to come at this present , some of the same pretended reformed Religion , which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes ; vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha ; they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble . And vpon the whole they conclude , that if one person hath the spirite of God , &c. vt supra . Answere . Touching the first Article , the Ministers neuer said ( as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres ) that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations ; but vpon the word of God , as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles . Of the truth whereof , they haue said to be principally assured by the ●estimoni● and reuelation of the holy spirit . They also say , that faith is not the truth ( to speake properly ) : but the perswasion of the truth , which in the scripture ●s ●aught vs. Moreouer , that this faith is not of our owne getting ▪ but a pure gi●t of God : adding , that the Ministers to make them lawfull● , ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors , which haue not but the ●y●le , and onely name of Pastors : but ought to be sent from God , a it appeareth in Ieremy : where this marke is proposed , to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe , or is sent of an other then of God. Touching the article following , they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation , is rather the word of God , then the consent of many : for as much as it oft times happeneth , that the multitude in the Church , declining from the word doo altogether erre : as in the time of Micheas , the time of Iesus Christ , and afterward also of Constance the Emperour . Concerning the Prophets , which doo follow they● owne spirite ( as bee those which leaue the word of God , and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men , or on the vanitie of their owne sence ) there is no doubt but they are false Prophets ; and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected . But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God , and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men . Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth , that heretikes ( as Anabaptists and others ) doo vse for confirmation of their errors , the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers . It may so bee , for as much as the scripture beeing common , may bee produced and alledged of eue●ie one . And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged : but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged : and in so dooing , men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes . And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer , namely , wherein they affirmed , that by the onely tradition of the Church , the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha . This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors , seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall : and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer , it appeareth that the one and the other , following the tradition ( as they say ) put a distinction therein : calling the one Canonicall , and the other Apocrypha . Touching the Article following , wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers , to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha . The Ministers do answer , that as they haue alledged some to proue the same ; so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose : as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus ; and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius : vnto whom , writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible , hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall . They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius : which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes ; but those which the Ministers themselues approue . Moreouer , the Councell of Laodicia , which the Doctors haue alledged , is for the Ministers : for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question . And touching the experience , they answere : that it is a question of fact : and that it may be alledged , rather against the Doctors , then the Ministers . And finally , that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing , but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession , which the Doctors will debate . The Ministers do shewe , that the 24. bookes of the old Testament , which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes , with all the bookes of the new Testament , be on both sides approued Canonicall . And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession , & all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion . And by meanes thereof , they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference , for the difference betweene both parties , touching the distinction of the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha . Obiection . Although the Ministers doo affirme , that they build their Religion vpon the word of God , yet build they Gods word vpon their inward reuelation . So that such a reuelation is the foundation of the Word , and consequently of their religion . For they receiue not for the word of God , but that which they thinke to bee particularly reuealed to them . Touching the other Article , wherein they finde fault that the Doctors haue said , that faith is obtained by hearing of the word of God , it seemeth they will stay vpon small things , because they will not goe to the principall . And where they say , that faith is the gift of God , and therefore is not gotten ▪ it is too plaine by manifold texts of Scripture , that one selfe-same thing to be giuen and obtained , is not repugnant . As the kingdome of heauen , which is giuen to the blessed , and notwithstanding men obtaine it by true faith , working by charitie . And the scripture it selfe dooth call it a reward , and recompence of good workes . And Saint Paul saith : that by liberalitie and almesdeeds , the grace of God is gained . Yea that which Saint Paul saith , Fides ex auditu : Faith commeth by hearing , cannot otherwise be vnderstood , but that faith commeth by hearing the word of God , which is the obtaining thereof , by the meane of hearing the word preached ; although it be a gift of God. The like subtiltie they vse , willing to reproue that which hath bene spoken , that faith is the truth reuealed : as putting great difference betweene the truth reuealed , and the reuelation of truth . Meet it were , that the subtiltie were vaileable against S. Paul , who saith : Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est ? The bread which wee breake , is it not the communion of the body of the Lord ? Which is as much to say , as Panis fractio nonne , &c. The breaking of the bread , is it not , &c. And therefore to speake properly , it behoueth that the text of S. Paul bee subiect to such reprehensions . And as touching this article , that they may not enter thereinto , albeit the Ministers do reply ; the Doctors will say no more of it : as beeing a thing too much impertinent . For in the end , should we speake of Merit , and from that matter fall into an other . It troubleth them to deale with the vocation of lawfull Ministers of the Church ; and to eschew that matter , would not alledge ( what they might without straying ) that first before we receiue their doctrine , it was meete to examine , whether they were Ministers lawfully sent from the true Church , to preach the word of God , and in their preachings to be heard of the people , according to the text of S. Paul aboue alledged . Which thing , had they of the new Religion well considered , a very sufficient argument should they haue had for not receiuing of their doctrine , because it is more cleare then the day , that they be not Ministers sent by the Pastors of the Church but thrust in themselues to preach , vnable to shewe any signe of their calling from men , and much lesse from God. And were it lawfull for euery one to preach the word , which saith he is sent , there would be infinite Sects : as we see at this time haue happened . And they say no more of this matter , for feare to aggrauate these things any further . Touching the Article , where mention is made , how a man may knowe that a reuelation is of Ood : where it is said by the Ministers , that men should rather know it by the word , then by the consent of many : that maketh nothing to the purpose of the Doctors . For the question is , how a man should iudge a booke to containe the word of God , and not to iudge of the doctrine , by the word alreadie receiued . The Doctors would willingly desire , and doo pray the Ministers to answere directly to the very point . Touching that they haue saide , Of the consent of many . The Doctors said not so , but spake of the consent of the Church , which is also as infallible , as the word of God. For as it is certaine that the holy Ghost is author of the Word ; so also is it certaine , that hee is the soule of the Church : by whose conduct she can neuer erre : witnesse S. Paul , who calleth her Columnam & firmamentum veritatis . The ground and pillar of truth . But they will not enter into this question , whether the multitude of the Church may erre or not . Neuerthelesse it will not be found ●ithens the Church was planted after the death of Iesus Christ , that shee hath bene of lesse number , then the Sects of heretikes . And that alledged of Constance , and of the time of the olde Testament seru●th nothing to that purpose : for there is great difference betweene the Synagogue of the Iewes and the Church : which is the congregation of all Nations beleeuing in Iesus Christ , and which cannot be or consist , but in a most great multitude : otherwise the promises made to the Church of the Gentiles , should be vaine : for it is said to Abraham that his ●eed ( this must not bee vnderstood of the carnall ) should be multiplied as the starres of heauen , and the sand of the sea . Concerning the Article which beginneth , Touching the Prophets , &c. The Doctors do say , that they confesse there is great difference betweene phantasticall imaginations , and the reuelation of the holy Ghost : but the Ministers doo not answere how they would proue their particular perswasions , to be reuelations , rather then the vaine and foolish imaginations of the Prophets , which Ezechiel spake of . The which notwithstanding they called inspirations : and what they said , and preached , they called also the Word of God. Concerning the Article which beginneth , Touching the Anabaptists , &c. The Doctors say , that to one selfe-same end , doo the Ministers and Anabaptists wholly produce the selfe-same places , of which mention is made : that is to say , to stay and assure their doctrine to be of God , because therof they haue particular reuelation , as God hath promised them by the Prophets . And for this selfe-same cause , haue the Ministers produced the said testimonies of the scripture , to proue that euery faithfull man may indge by his particular inspiration , if a booke do containe the word of God : and distinguish a booke Canonicall from Apocrypha : to iudge and discerne the true doctrine from the false : which is the selfe-same foundation of the Anabaptists and other heretikes . To that Article which beginneth , touching that which is produced of Brentius , &c. The Doctors say : that the Ministers haue not well conceiued their meaning . For they bring not the saying of Brentius and Bucer , but onely because they say , that they know the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture , by the tradition of the Church , and not by particular inspiration , as the Ministers . Touching the Article following , the Doctors say : there was a time when some made doubt of certaine bookes of the Scripture : as of the Apocalips , the Canonicall Epistle of S. Iohn , and others . But in time the Church guided by the holy Ghost , with common consent receiued indifferently for Canonicall , all the bookes that bee in the Bible ; which consent ( continued by so many hundred yeares ) hath more authoritie then the sayings of one or two : the which neuerthelesse , spake not but of their owne time . And further , there is no comparison betweene the sayings of one or two particular men , & the determinations of Councels , and consent of the Church : as hath already beene sayd . And it will be found , that S. Ierom hath approoued these bookes as Canonicall . And for the same , will referre themselues to the Prologue which hee made vpon the bookes of the Macabees , where he saith : Touching the Hebrewes , they are not Canonicall histories of the Church : or other wordes to the like effect . For the Councell of Laodicia , they referre them to that which is contained therein . It may bee , they are deceiued , in cyting one Councell for another . For the Article beginning , Touching the experience , &c. Although it be a question of fact : yet it ceaseth not to be much auailable . And if it be found as the Doctors haue proposed , ( of which they doubt nothing ) the foundation of their particular reuelation is ouerthrowne . Touching the Ministers conclusion : the Doctors doo shew , that they haue oft times complained , they fell into by-matters . They referre themselues to the iudgement of all men , that their last resolution was deducted all of one thread , continuing without straying , in the same matter : In which , albeit they had found something wherein difficultie had beene , had the Ministers so much desired to proceed to the conference of the chiefe pointes ; they might briefely haue admonished them of the said difficultie . The Doctors vpon these articles had verily said something : but to hasten the busines for the which they bee called , they do forbeare to multiply words . Where the Ministers shew , that they receiue the 24. bookes of the old Testament , with all the bookes of the Newe . The Doctors say : that that is not the point . For all the conference they haue made hitherto , that is to say : by what rules men might discerne some bookes from other some , and iudge whether they were of the Scripture or not , was to raunge them in this point , that they receiued them by the tradition of the Church : which is iudge of the number of the bookes : and by the same meanes , when the question should bee , of the vnderstanding of the word of God ( euen in the conference of the places of the same Scripture ) the Ministers and Doctors should haue such reuerence to the Catholique Church , that she should be of both parts accepted for iudge , of the vnderstanding of the Scripture , which they acknowledg to haue receiued of the same : wherof she is an infallible iudge , and more certaine , then the one or the other . And notwithstanding the Doctors doo make offer to the Ministers , that they will not vse at this time against them , but those bookes onely , which they receiue for Canonicall . But when they shall fall into difficultie of the interpretation of some text , or of the conference of many : the Doctors esteeme it more reasonable to haue recourse to the Catholique Church , and to the auncient Fathers , then to their proper sence , or that of the Ministers . Answere . For conclusion , the Ministers do accept of the offer made them by the Doctors , to decyde the pointes and articles of their Confession , by the bookes Canonicall , whereof they are agreed : that is to say , the 24. bookes of the Hebrewes , and all the bookes of the new Testament : protesting neuerthelesse , that in the last writtings proposed by the Doctors , there bee many things which they no wayes approoue , and doo hope to confute as occasions shall bee offered : and would presently haue done it , had it not beene that they will shew ( against that imputed to them by the Doctors ) that they will not stray , nor any way retyre from the conference of the points of their Confession . Reply . The Doctors reciprocally do agree to the Ministers in the said offer : with this moderation , to ad the authoritie of the vniuersall Church , and the auncient Doctors , for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scripture , when they cannot agree . The third dayes Dispute , on Thursday , the eleuenth of Iuly . THE Ministers haue shewed what are the protestations which the Doctors haue made , not for other ende to appeare in this Conference , but to satisfie Madam de Buillon , and not to bee instructed , and otherwise informed of the pointes of Religion then they be . And those which the Ministers haue on their part made also , not to conferre with them for any doubt they haue of the pointes of their Confession , whereof they bee wholely resolued : By reason of which protestations , they haue required that the first point , whereof they shall conferre , may bee that which Madam de Buillon hath publiquely required to bee decyded : that is of the Supper , and of the Masse : that they may bee discharged of that also which hath beene imputed vnto them by the Doctors : that they wandered and would not come to the principall point , which is , that aforesaid of the Masse : but cōtrariwise that they fled away & drew backe from the conference . Finally , that it may bee knowne who doo flye the decyding thereof : They offer , after they haue cleared that point , to conferre with them ( if they please ) of all the other points which be in controuersie , as leisure and time shall therfore be granted . And doo also require , to avoyd all confusion ( and such as happened in the Conference the day before ) that the Doctors may propose their arguments particularly each one apart : and that the answers also may bee made vnto them particularly by the Ministers . Ir els , if they will propose all their arguments and reasons together , that one whole day may bee graunted vnto them , wherein they may doo that without any interruption : conditionally that the Ministers may haue the day following to answere by order to all their arguments . The Doctors say , by that which is aboue written in the behalfe of the Ministers : That it is easie to know , they haue alwayes recoyled , and yet do recoyle from conference of the things which they haue put in controuersie : and they are maruellously abashed , that they will not now permit the articles of their confession to be examined by order : as the day of the first Conference they had required ( my Lord of Neuers , my Lord and Lady of Buillion , and other Lords and Gentlemen being present ) in presenting their said confessions , contained in a little guilded booke , making offer to the Doctors to examine them in order ( if they pleased ) which they found very reasonable . And indeed the Ministers themselues hauing demanded of the Doctors whereof they would intreate , departed yesterday , contented to begin this day to examine the Articles of the Creed . And as touching their speeche of the protestation that the assembly was made for the instruction of my Lady , who desireth ( as they say in her absence ) to bee first instructed concerning the Masse : The Doctors say ; that the Ministers by word of mouth , haue instructed the said Lady , not onely in the error which concerneth their Supper : but also in many others , as they will make it appeare , when they shall handle the articles of the Confession by them exhibited . Then willing to instruct the Lady by order in the Catholique Religion : they purpose to follow the order held by the Fathers of the Church ; that is to say : to shew vnto her , how many errors against the Articles of the faith , are contained in the Catechisme of their Ghurch : although they shew to them of their religion , that they differ in these articles nothing from the Catholiques . And because to catechise and instruct one , it behooueth to beginne at the foundation , and that of certaine articles of the Creed ( in which the Ministers & their like do erre ) dependeth the beginning of the proofe of the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar : they will holde the order which all good teachers or instructors doo keepe in all discipline , and the Ministers themselues do obserue , following in their Catechisme this method . And rightly were the Doctors to bee mocked ( whom men doo take for instructors ) if they should beginne ( for the Ministers pleasure ) to instruct one in that point , wherein they ought to ende : as endeth the same Catechisme of the Ministers vpon the matter of the Supper . Moreouer , seeing the Ministers are content ( as they say ) that all the articles of their confession bee examined : no priuiledge haue they , but that one begin at the first , for as much as all order so requireth : and it is alwayes at the choice of the Apponent to propound ( in such order as seemeth best to him ) the questions for the Dispute , were there any . And for as much as they are bound to giue a reason of their faith , as often as they be therof required : expedient it were for the good of the Lady , & for the instruction of those that shall read the Conference , to follow this method . And if they refuse what the Doctors doo offer , they cannot auoyd it , but all the world will iudge ( by the eye ) that distrusting their owne doctrine ( which they dare not vphold ) they confound the Conference . Whereas they require , that the Doctors in the Conference , put foorth but one reason at once : wherevnto they may answere without confusion : or else , that in one day the Doctors put forth all their reasons , and on an other day the Ministers may come to answere . The Doctors do say , that the first offer is reasonable ; and to auoyd length of speech , they accept it : but they neuer heard say , that the second maner hath bene practised : and no need it were to assemble together in one place for that purpose , but to send their writings the one to the other . Answere . Touching the exhibiting of the confession , and the offers which the Doctors pretend to haue beene made by the Ministers , the Ministers do report themselues to the Registers . And do adde moreouer , that it appeareth by the Doctors last proposition , that it is not vpon the confession which the Doctors say was exhibited vnto them , but vpon the Catechisme , that they will ground their Dispute . For conclusion , the Miuisters do eftsoones protest as abouesaid , that men may know who they be that doo flye the Lists , and require that henceforth the order of arguing and answering , may be by course , betweene them and the Doctors . For as much as it behoueth that things be equall , and that it is reasonable , that the Doctors as well do render a reason of their faith , as the Ministers . Reply . The Doctors do referre them to what hath bene put in writing in the two first Conferences : where speech was alwaies of examining the articles of their confession , without making any mention of the Masse . And where they say that it seemeth the Doctors would examine the Catechisme , and not the articles of the confession : the Doctors are content to examine the said articles , by conferring them with the Catechisme . This considered , that these two ought to agree together : they make all men iudges that shal read these writings , in whom is the let , that they begin not the Conference . And for the order which the Ministers will now change , a new fashion it is , and also a new trouble ▪ cōsidering that hitherto they haue holden the place of respondent , and haue presented to be examined , the articles of their confession . As for the Doctors , they haue bene alwaies arguers , and haue not for their part proposed ought to be examined . Neuerthelesse , they are contented after examination of the said confession , that the Ministers doo propound the difficulties they shall haue against the Catholike doctrine : wherevnto by the grace of God , the Doctors will answere . Demaund . Whether the Ministers do beleeue the Creed , called the Apostles , to haue bene made by the Apostles ? and whether they do beleeue all that is contained therein ? Answere . It is a thing in difference , whether the Apostles being together , themselues did write it , each one of them bringing his sentence ( as some do hold ) : or whether it hath bene gathered out of diuers places of their writings . But so it is , that in the reformed Church , men beleeue euery point to bee drawne from the pure Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine contained in their writings : as if one should say , that it is a Summarie of the doctrine which the Apostles haue preached , because it beareth and containeth the same . Question . Leauing ( to auoyd tediousnesse ) whether it bee a thing indifferent for a Christian to beleeue , that a doctrine hath bene written by the Apostles , or no : if it be conformable to that which shal be found in holy writ : they demaund whether all doctrine conformable to the said Letters , may take indifferently the title of the Apostles , or other authors of the scripture ? Answere . No man can faile to call it Apostolike doctrine : but in naming it Apostolike writing , one might giue to vnderstand , that it was written by their owne hands ▪ or spoken by them . But howsoeuer it be , where we shall acknowledge any doctrine to sauour of the spirit , wherwith the holy men of God haue bin moued , that call we Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine . Obiection . The demaund was not , whether the doctrine be Apostolike , for any such conformitie : but whether for this reason , it may be attributed to the Apostles , and of like authoritie as the Scriptures , vnto which it is conformable : forasmuch as it proceedeth from one selfe same spirit , as is sayd in the answere . Answere . The Answere thereto is made : to wit , that such a writing doth containe Apostolique doctrine , and in some sence it may be said to be the Apostles . Obiection . The Answere ( vnder correction ) nought pertaineth to the question . For it is not demaunded , whether men may esteeme it Apostolique in respect of the conformitie , but whether for this conformitie , men may attribute it to the Apostles , and giue vnto it the tytle and name of the Apostles : and whether for the said conformitie , it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles ? Answere . The first question was , whether the Creed were made by the Apostles ? Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere . After which it is lawfull to make the second demand , which is diuers from that . Obiection . The second , dependeth on the first , and so hath it been made . Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered , let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader . Answere . Because it dependeth thereupon , it is not therefore the same . Question . Whether they approoue the Creed onely , because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles ? Or whether there any other cause , which incyteth them to beleeue it ? Answere . It is not onely conformable , but the doctrine it selfe : and for that cause doo they beleeue it , and approoue it . Question . Whether a man be not bound to receiue it , but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing , or conformable to the writings of the Apostles , as is aforesaid . Answere . The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it , to beleeue it , is the knowledge afore spoken of . Question . Although this be the principall cause , they require an absolute answere , whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it , in such wise as this first is necessarie . Answere . For the Creed , and euery other thing we beleeue , the principall cause is , the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing , or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles . And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue . Obiection . They answere not ( vnder correction ) to the question : which is , whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary , to know the cōformitie of the said Creed , with the writings of the Apostles : and that without the same , none can or ought to receiue it . The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution , and answere absolutely the one or the other . And more simply to explane the question , this it is : to wit , whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles , but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings ? Answere . The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul , that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word : to beleeue , it behoueth to know that it is the word of God. Question . It would be knowne , whether they vnderstand this word to be written , or not written . Answere . The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles , which is the foundation of the Christian faith . Obiection . The Ministers doo then maintaine , that before the beleeuing of the Creed , or proposing it to be beleeued , it behoueth to be instructed , or to instruct an other , in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets . Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church , and contrary to that which is contained in the forme , prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua , made by Caluin , and inserted amongst his workes ; which beareth these words , addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise : For as much as the matter wee haue in hand , is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church , yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion , to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people . And after these words , is inserted the Creed : after which , it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament : so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued , they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written , nor what it is , nor that therein contained , to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same . Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed , vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture , but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God. As the auncient Church , yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written , did wontedly propose both to great and small , the beliefe of the Creed , before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them , as by Christian antiquities appeareth . And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed , dependeth not on the written word , but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God. Answere . Touching the first article , it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe , or any other ignorant person , the Creed of the Apostles , they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets , seeing that which is contained in the Creed , is no other thing , but the selfe-same doctrine : and that they are things not onely conioyned , but also like , if not in words , yet at least in sence and substance . Touching the second article , they denie that that abouesaid , is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua , or any other well gouerned Church . And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches , it followeth not , by the alledged words and sayings thereof , that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed , and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets & Apostles , ( which is impossible ) but plainly to shewe , that when he added that word , hee meant therin to comprehend it , and generally ( which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation ) to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures , after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine , particularly comprised in the Creed . And for the other reason added , that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised , before any booke of the new Testament was written , they grant it . But it followeth not therefore , that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach : ( although then not put in writing ) And likewise on the writings of the Prophets , wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles . For conclusion , the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written . Obiection . The Ministers ( it seemeth ) haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors . For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe , to the writings Apostolike ; but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand , that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing , vnto which the Creed is conformable : and that otherwise , the Creed cannot bee beleeued . And for more easie explanation , the question is , whether it be not possible for a childe , ( being come to yeares of discretion ) or any other , by the instruction of the father and mother , or others , to beleeue the articles of the Creed , without being first instructed by them , that there are certaine Apostolike writings , vnto which , the Articles of the Creed are conformable . And whether to moue them so to beleeue , it be necessary to know that conformitie ; Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto . Answere . Faith is by hearing , and hearing by the word of God : wherevnto agreeth , that which Iesus Christ saith : putting the hearing of the word before the faith thereof , saying : He that heareth my word , and beleeueth in him that sent me , &c. Also that which hee commaunded the Apostles , first to preach the Gospell , that the hearers might by preaching , be disposed and brought to the faith . For these reasons , knowledge that the doctrine which is taught , is the word of God , is necessarie to beleeue : And without that , it is not possible for a man to haue faith , or beleeue in God , except he be first assured , that what is taught him , is the word of God. And for the demaund made touching the instruction of children growne to yeares of discretion , or others , whether it be requisite they should know the word , before they beleeue it . The answere is , yea . And Thomas himselfe saith , that the faith of the articles of the Creed , ought to be expounded ; that is to say , cleared : which cannot be done without the knowledge of the word . Obiection . In such an answere there is multiplying of words , without ought touching the point proposed : for they doubt not but that they ought to Catechise children and others , and to expound by the word of God , the Articles of the Creed vnto them : but the question is , whether they must vnderstand , that this Word is written in the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles : so that without the knowledge of those writings , they cannot haue the knowledge and beliefe of the articles of the faith contained in the said Creed . The Doctors pray the Ministers to answere yea or no : and after their answere , to adde what reasons they will. Which thing if they will not do , the Doctors will proceed to an other article ; after notwithstanding ( for conclusion of all ) they haue shewed vnto them , that if this knowledge of the scriptures were necessarie to vnderstand the articles of the Creed , in examining them according to the conformitie of the same scriptures , that it behooueth ( sith the foundation is so necessarie ) to place this among the Articles of the Creed : [ I beleeue that there be holy scriptures . ] And it is to be noted , that there is not any mention made in the said Creed , that there are holy scriptures . So that a man may be truly a Christian , before he vnderstand that there is any Christian doctrine , and word of God written . And therfore to beleeue and vnderstand the Creed , it is not necessary to knowe the word of God to be written . And the Doctors do protest that they will speake no more of this article . Answere . By conference of the demaunds and answeres , it is easie to iudge , who more abound in speech , they which propound , or they that answere . Touching the second article , the answere is as before ; that to beleeue , and be a Christian , the knowledge of Gods word is necessarie , whether the said word be written or reuealed . And as touching the remonstrance made , the Ministers do answere , that they for their part will in no wise allow men should ought adde to the pure word of God. And they beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles is nothing else but the pure word of God , which is proposed vnto vs by his spirit , saying , that it should bee a breach against his commandement to adde therevnto new articles . And they do maintaine , that had there bene other articles which had bene necessary to saluation , the spirit of God would not haue omitted nor forgotten them . For conclusion , albeit no expresse mention bee made of the holy scripture in the Creed , yet so much is there couertly vnderstood , that the Church ( which cannot stand if shee be not built and founded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles ) is there proposed for an article to beleeue . Reply . The Doctors say , that this answere is impertinent , and no more to the purpose then the former . And although the Prophets and Apostles had not written , yet had the Church bin built vpon their foundation , as it was in the time of Abrahā , and before there was any scripture : which , were it necessary to saluation , it had bene put amongst the articles of faith . Answere . The Ministers say , that this reply is yet more impertiment : and for the reason thereto added , that the faith was in the time of Abraham , although there were no word written : they do agree therevnto . But it is ill inferred : there is no written word . There is therefore no word . And it is a fallacie in argument , which the Logicians doo call , A dicto secundum quid ad dictū simpliciter . From a qualified saying , to a saying simple . The fourth dayes . Dispute on Fryday the 12. of Iuly . THe Ministers do shewe , that they still continue their former requests , considering the protestations aforesaid made by the Doctors : who haue twise declared , that they were not assembled , but onely to satisfie the Lord Montpensier , and my Lady of Buillon : considering also the request publikely made by the said Lady in the assembly , to bee instructed in the point of the Supper , and not vpon the others , whereof she thinketh her selfe sufficiently instructed , and not to need therein any further teaching . And for these causes do the Ministers request , as before they haue done , that the first thing , whereof they shall conferre , be that of the Supper ▪ and of the Masse . And the rather , for that they vnderstood by some worthy of credit , that the Doctors intend not to enter into conference vpon that point . Vpon this declaration , the Doctors say , that they are ashamed to heare so often protestations ; and that the Ministers ( it seemeth ) will thus spend the time , to flee eftsoones the Conference of the articles of their confession : which neuerthelesse they haue oftentimes set forth to be examined . And where they say , that Madame de Buillon ( for instruction of whom the company is assembled ) hath required publikely to bee instructed in the articles of the Masse , and in no other . They say , that some mention shee made for Conference of the Masse : but they neuer heard say that she held her selfe sufficiently instructed concerning the other articles . The Doctors do offer , that if the said Lady will confesse that she beleeueth all the other articles proposed by the Ministers , and their like against the doctrine of the Catholike Church , to be e●ronious , they are presently readie to enter into Conference of the Masse . But contrariwise , if she be seduced with errors , contrary to the doctrine of the Church Catholike , to keepe the order which appertaineth to instructors , and to lay the foundatiō of the Masse , the Doctors haue determined , according to the good & holy des●e of my lord Montpensier , to car●chife & teach the Lady his daughter cōcerning euery article , & by order . And they further say , that the Ministers do what they of their Church are accustomed ; which is , alwaies to flie back frō the Confere●ence with the Catholikes , and be for●the point proposed by them be decided , they put an other in Dispute : as did Be●a and the Ministers with him at Poissy : who seeing the Supper was to be handled against thē in the chamber of the Prior of Poissy in the pre●●ce of the Queen , of the Prinoes of bloud , & of the Lords of the Councell , they often requested to leaue that point vndecided , hand to enter into some other which should be more euident against the Catholikes as of Images and other things . And contrariwise , the Ministers to auoyd now the great 〈◊〉 which be in their interpretation of the Creed , would set forth the point of the Supper . The Doctors beseech , as they haue 〈◊〉 that there be no confusion in their doing ; and 〈◊〉 their religio●e examined by order ; and that it be no● thought that the Doctors doo refuse ●o enter into the Conference of the Masse , and the Supper , as they haue alwaies determined and neuer said ( vnder correction of all persons ) that they would not conferre theerof : for my Ladies briefe instruction , they are readie to dispute thereof by word of mouth , and plainly to shewe by the expresse word of God , that Iesus Christ instituted , and said Masse , and his Apostles also . They do also offer , that whatsoeuer shall be said by word of mouth vpon this matter , be put in writing the next day after , to be placed in it order : as the instruction of my Lady doth require . And do referre them for the day , to the said Ladies opportunitie . The Ministers do answere , that all these answeres are superfluous , and vnprofitable , for as much as all such Conferences are nothing but debates and al●rications , which do● offend and scandalize more then they edifie . The Resolution of the Doctors . THe Doctors ensuing the order alreadie begun , and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers , and afterwards to giue a resolution for the instruction of my Lady of Buillon , vpon the two points proposed yesterday : to wit , whether the Apostles were authors of the Creed . And why we ought to beleeue it . They say , that to know whether the Apostles did make and erect the Creed , ought no more to be esteemed a thing indifferent , then to know whether the Apostles be authors of their owne writings . For much more is the authoritie of them , when a man is assured that they are certainly proceeded from the Apostles . And contrariwise , it should be far lesse , if men did doubt therof , or esteem it a thing indifferent . Moreouer they say , that it is no sufficient reason to call this Creed Apostolike , and to intitle it , the Creed of the Apostles : in regard of the conformitie it hath with their writings . For by this reason , the other Creeds ( as that of Nice , of Ath●n●sius , and all other the like writings ) may as well be named the Creed of the Apostles ; because they containe a doctrine agreeable to the Apostles writings . Therefore say the Doctors , it must be beleeued , that the Apostles did make it , and gaue the same Creed vnto Christians ▪ and that it must be beleeued , as being a writing composed by the Apostles . And their proofe thereof is , that they alwayes finde since the Apostles time vntil now , that this Creed hath bene proposed in Baptisme and Catechisme : as it appeareth by the authors which haue beene from the Apostles vnto vs. And also that no man can name , or note any Author or Councell ( but euen before that Author , or Councell , immediately to the Apostles time ) that Creed hath beene proposed in Baptisme and Cat chisme , and called among Christians , the rule of faith . And the like argument S. Augustine in many places against the Donatists , doth esteeme to be firme and in●incible , to proue and shew , that something is from the Apostles . They willingly omit to auoyd ●ediousnesse , the auncient writers : as S. Ambrose , S. Ierome , & others , who acknowledge this Creed to haue bene made and receiued , namely of the Apostles . For the second point , the Doctors do affirme , that the bond and necessitie to beleeue this Creed , doth not depend o● the knowledge of the Apostolike or Prophetica●● scriptures , nor on the knowledge of the conformitie with them . For it was made and co●●ained among the Christians in Baptisme , before there was any Apostolike writing . And in Baptisme they proposed the said Creed to be beleeued , before they ent●ed into the scripture , or to speake thereof . And in the Primatiue Church , they examined the scriptures whether they were to be receiued or nor , and the vnde●standing of them , and whether a doctrine were true or false by this Creed and rule of faith ; and by it likenesse or conformitie with the same . Ireneus , Tertullian , and others , do teach it . And although it should so happen , that a man had neuer heard but the Creed , without knowing whether there be holy scriptures or not , hee might beleeue the said Creed , and be a true Christian : so that hee were voyd of other particular false opinion . And contrariwise , if the beliefe of the Creed did depend vpon the knowledge of the Propheticall o● Apostolike scriptures , to vnderstand and to be assured of the conformitie that is therein , as 〈◊〉 as to beleeue it 〈◊〉 none but the learned and well exercised in the scriptures ( who should bee assured of the said conformitie ) should be bound to beleeue the Creed , or should at least be assured of the truth thereof . And so should there he very fewe Christians , Therfore the belle●ing of the Creed , doth not depend vpon the knowledge of the scriptures . By meanes whereof the Doctors do hold by tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 by the holy Ghost , that the Creed is the Apostle and that none ought to doubt therof . And by the same tradition it must be beleeued , as 〈…〉 of the Apostles of like authoritie with that in their writings , although they had no knowledge of the other scriptures . And the Doctors are sory that they haue so much declined from answering pertinently and absolutely to these two points , which they haue onely proposed to shew , what faith and authoritie men ought to giue to this Creed , and to all other doctrine receiued by tradition of the Apostles , ( without Canonicall scripture ) which they will proue to haue bene left by them ; by the same meane and reason by which is shewed , the Creed to haue bin deliuered to the Christians by the Apostles without that they put the same in writing . Finally the Doctors do admonish such as read this Conference , not to be astonished , nor ma●uell at so many perplexed declinings from the true end of the said points proposed . And do pray them to remember the conferences made by S. Augustine , with the Donatists and Pellagians : wherin they shall finde like maner of dealing , as that of the Ministers , with whom they do conferre . And for the present Conference , referre themselues to the readers iudgement . The Resolution of the Ministers . THe Ministers following that which before hath bene proposed , and alwaies by them maintained ; and for the confirmation also of the faith of the Lady of Buillon , say that it is vncertaine ( as S. Ciprien hath written ) whether the Creed , called the Apostles , was made & composed by them : or else drawne or gathered out of their doctrine : and why also it is called the Apostles Creed : or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto : or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion . And as touching the same ; that it is a thing indifferent to saluation : in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie , be it that the Apostles haue written it , or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings . So haue also the Creeds , as well of Nice , as of Athanasius , whereof the Church hath neuer doubted , but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine , as shee hath euidently declared , in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people , on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate , which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome : where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches . And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine , it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia : in which it is forbidden to read in the Church , any thing proposed of priuate inuention , but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament , the number whereof is there made . The Ministers say further , that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed , is the knowledge they haue , that it is the pure word of God , and him that teacheth it , do they also maintaine , to bee the word of God : as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth : who after he had proposed to the Corinthians , the death , buriall , and resurrection of Iesus Christ , which be the chiefe articles of the Creed , and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded , addeth these words . That hee deliuered vnto them , that which he receiued : to wit , that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures ; and that he was afterwards buried : and that he arose againe the third day , according to the scriptures . Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples , alledged to them the scriptures , thereby to assure them , saying : O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken , ought not Christ to haue suffered these things , and to enter into his glorie ? And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets , and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures , the things that were written of him . In the selfe-same Chapter , appearing after his resurrection , euen before the Creed was made , proposing vnto them his death and resurrection ; to assure them thereof , hee alledged vnto them the scriptures , saying : It is thus written , and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day . Whence may be inferred , that for the foundation of faith , and assurance of the articles of the same , there is no better means then to propose the scriptures . And although in the time of the birth of the Church , the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised , before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing : it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures , wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded . And to decsare the same particularly , The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis . The article of the almightinesse of God , hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay , and diuers other places of the scripture . The article of the conception of Iesus Christ , vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay : For the place of his birth , vpon the 5. of Micheas : and in respect of the time , vpon the 49. of Genesis , and the 9. of Daniel . The article of the death and of the Crosse , vpon the 22. Psalme , 53. Chapter of Esay , and 9. of Daniel . The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme . The article of the Ascention , vpon the 68. Psalme . The article of the iudgement , in Daniel , 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost , in Ioel 2. The article of the Church , Esay . 2. and Micheas . 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes , vpon the 32. Psalme , and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh , and life eternall , in Daniel the 12. By this discourse , and places of scripture quoted , it may appeare to euery man , that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon , before the Creed was put in writing : and that men might & ought to alledge them to those that were catechised , to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued . And it is not possible that a man can beleeue , that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word : and that is not assured thereof , and holdeth it as certaine , and more also ( were it possible ) then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration : as it appeareth by the definition of faith , when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin , & elenchon . That is to say , the euidence of things which are not seene . The Ministers do adde , that it implyeth a contradiction , to call the Creed a doctrine not written ▪ and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it . And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine , and at what time it began to be written . And the Ministers are much displeased , in that they which conferre with them , doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference , as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof . For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple , they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt : which is as much , as to proue a thing confessed , and resolued on , and to light a candle at noone-day . And they assure themselues , that they which shal read the acts of this Conference , will not at all bee abashed , because they decline to treat of that point , whereof they be so oft required : for that ( as Iesus Christ saith ) he that doth euill , fleeth the light . For conclusion , the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue , that the Creed of the Apostles , in euery article therof , is the pure word of God , and in the faith wherof , it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end . So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches , that should denie , or ought doubted of the said articles . Reply . The Doctors will proue , that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed . The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God , when as they say and teach , that God cannot cause one body to be in two places . The second is against the article of the creation , when as they say , that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done , but also himselfe doth it . The third is , that one while they denie , and an other while they confesse for an article of faith , that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after her childe-birth . The fourth , that Iesus Christ descended not into hell , but by imagination , and not really . Also say the Ministers against the said article , that Iesus Christ dispaired of his saluation vppon the tree of the Crosse : that hee was troubled in conscience , fearing to bee damned : and many other errors contained in this Article . Vpon which obiections , they warne the Ministers to be readie to answere therevnto . Answere . The Ministers will bee readie to answere to the slaunders aforesaid . The fift dayes Dispute on Monday the fifteenth of Iuly . THe Ministers doo require , that the request fomerly made , and now againe repeated by the Lady of Buillon , namely , that the Doctors should speedily conferre with them concerning the points of the Masse , may be registred , to the end the occasion may be knowne why the Doctors do delay and go back from the said Conference . The Doctors vnwilling to loose time , and willing to pursue the last dayes agreement , according wherevnto the Ministers ought to answere , touching the errors contained in the doctrine by them preached , against the articles of the Creed : as the Doctors haue noted and proposed the same . And to enter forthwith into the matter , they shewe that the said Ministers haue euilly alledged Saint Ciprian for them , to denie the Creed to be the Apostles . For S. Ciprian doubteth not , nor putteth in doubt as a thing indifferent , whether it bee the Apostles or no ; but sheweth expresly , that before they departed asunder , they composed the said Creed : as in the Preface of his exposition may appeare . The Doctors demaund further vpon the article of the omnipotencie , ( which is the foundation of the Supper , and the holy Sacrament ) why the article of omnipotencie , being the first and principall article of faith , is not contained in the confession , proposed by the mouth of Beza at Poissy , before the King , and many times since , and inserted in many bookes ? And why they haue made so many different confessions of faith , taking out of one what they haue put in : and adding ( contrariwise ) to others that they haue omitted . And how it happeneth , that the article of the Trinitie , is not expresly in the first confession of the 1564. yeare ? which yet they do confesse in all obscuritie . Answere . It shall appeare by the last dayes acts , that the Ministers haue required what they yet require for the present : namely , that the point of the Masse bee first put forth to be decided : because it is the chiefe occasion , for which the Conference was appointed . And concerning that they propose touching the Creed , the Ministers neuer doubted , nor yet do they doubt but that it is a pure Apostolike doctrine . Which to euery man that shall read the acts of the last day aforesaid may appeare : where ( at least ) in halfe a dozen places , they haue alwaies confessed and repeated the same . And that which they haue maintained to be doubtfull , is onely , whether the Creed were written by the Apostles themselues , or not : whereof nothing can appeare to be verified by the Doctors . And S. Ciprian himselfe , whom the Doctors haue produced , in his Preface doth aduertise the readers of the great varietie there is touching the said Creed : for as much as diuers Churches haue added therevnto diuers articles : He doth also aduertise them , that he followeth in his explication , the order of the Church of Aquilea . Yea and expounding the article of the discention into hell , ( of which the Doctors make so much adoo ) he specially saith : that it is not in the Creed of the Romane Church , nor yet of the Easterne Churches . Whence may bee gathered the incertaintie of that aboue said : and that there is no article of which men may reasonably doubt , whether it be of the number of those which the Apostles haue written , or whether some Church hath added the same : or else it must bee said , that the Apostles had written diuers Creeds . And for the difference which the Doctors doo pretend to be in the confessions of the reformed Churches , printed and published at sundry times , the Ministers denie them , as touching the sence , to differ one from the other : although for more ample declaration thereof , some tearmes haue possibly bene chaunged . And where they propose that in some of them the article of the omnipotencie of God was omitted , the Ministers doo denie it , and require the Doctors to bring forth a copie of the confession , in which they maintaine the same to haue bene omitted : for were it so , it should be falsified and corrupted . Adding that there is nothing in their confession , doubtfull or obscure : which some of the said Doctors haue well declared , when they made a forme of confession by the patterne of that of the reformed Churches , vsing the proper tearmes and sentences : vnto which they added nothing to make it varie , that excepted for which they are in difference with the Ministers , and which they would hardly ground vpon the scriptures . Obiection . The Doctors say , that the Ministers by their deniall that S. Ciprian holdeth the Apostles were Authors , makers , and composers of the Creed , do sufficiently shewe , how bolde they are to denie things manifest . All which , they referre to the auditory present , and to the readers of this writing . For ground of which deniall , they rest vpon a simple reason : to wit , vpon the article of the discention into hell , whether it were inserted by the Apostles , or added by others to make it doubtfull , whether they are Authors of all the other Articles . For it is , as if a man should say , it is vncertaine whether Saint Iohn composed his Gospell , because there bee that doubt whether the Historie of the Adulteresse bee of him . But leauing that , the Doctors demaund , whether they confesse not by their doctrine , that God by his almightinesse , cannot cause one body to be in two places : two bodies in one place ? Thirdly , that God cannot cause a body to be inuisible . Fourthly , that one body may be in one place without holding place equall to it greatnesse . Answere . All these questions are impertinent and enstranged from the confession of the Churches : which neuerthelesse the Doctors haue chosen for foundation of all the Conference . Wherfore the Ministers require , that they dispute to the purpose , and choose one article or many of the said confession , whervpon they pretend to build their said questions . Obiection . These questions are very pertinent to impugne the Articles of the Ministers confession . For the question is not , of the proper words contained in the said confession , which is not but a Summary of the faith : but the Doctors will impugne the sence of the Articles which they doo knowe by their proper writings . By which they openly witnesse , touching the article of the omnipotencie , that God cannot doo the things aforesaid . And the Doctors do shewe , that it well and fitly serueth to impugne the doctrine of heretickes , and for the true meanes to proue against them , that they receiue not the holy scripture , when they proue that they receiue not the true sence thereof . They say also , that the Ministers themselues hauing desired conference of the Masse , are the cause of such questions : and the Doctors by this meane will draw them therevnto . For this article of the omnipotencie , is the chiefe foundation to proue and maintaine the word of God , and the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ , in the Sacrament of the Aultar . And the Doctors are abashed at so many declinings : for when their confession is spoken of , they demand the Masse : and when they come to the Masse , they demaund their confession . Answere . The Ministers do abash at so many superfluous things proposed by the Doctors . And where they say that albeit they oppugne not the words of the said confession , yet doo they oppugne the sence thereof . The Ministers answere : that the sence cannot be knowne but by the words . And for this reason they wrap themselues in a contradictiō , when as leauing the tearmes thereof , they say they will confute the sence . And as for the conclusion which they will drawe from Gods omnipotencie , affirming that one body is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant , the Ministers do denie that that by good consequence , can be inferred of the omnipotencie of God. Obiection . The Doctors say , that it doth well follow , God cannot cause one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant . God therefore is not almightie . Answere . The Ministers denie the consequence aforesaid , and alledge reason ; because it appeareth by the holy scripture , that God cannot denie himselfe : and that it is impossible that he should lye . Neuerthelesse , it were blasphemie to inferre and conclude therevpon , that he were not almightie . For the omnipotencie of God , ought to be measured according to his will , and the things agreeable to his nature ; as teacheth the Mr. of the sentences , saying : In that is God omnipotent , wherein his power is of might , and not of infirmitie . S. Ierome writing to Eustochius , and confirming that aboue said , saith as followeth . I will boldly say , although God can do all things , yet can he not restore and reestablish a virgin after her fall . Saint Augustine likewise writeth in the fift booke of the Citie of God , cap. 10. in these words . The power of God is in nothing lessened , when it is said , he cannot die , nor be beguiled . And a litle after , God is almightie , because there be things which he cannot do . The same Author in the 26. of the same worke , cap. 8. thus saith : He that saith , if God be almightie , let him cause the things which be made , that they be not made . Perceiueth not , that it is as much as if he said : if hee be almightie , let him make the things which are true , in as much as they be true , to be false . Teodoret also in his third Dialogue , conformable to that aboue said , saith : We must not without determination , say that all things generally , are possible to God. For hee that so saieth , absolutely comprehendeth things good and euill , which are contrary in themselues . And a little after , hee affirmeth : that God cannot sinne , because it is a thing contrary to his nature . Wherevpon hee concludeth , that although many things there be which he cannot do ( for as much as there bee many sinnes ) yet for all that doth he not cease to be almightie . Obiection . The Doctors say , that the reasons formerly brought , do auaile and serue to shewe , that the Ministers doo confesse the antecedent , which seemed onely to be supposed : to wit , God cannot cause one body at one selfe instant to bee in two places , no more then hee can make the things by them alledged . For to this end doo they alledge them , to declare that something there is which God cannot doo . And to the present question ( to wit , that one body cannot be in two places ) can they not apply them , but to shew that the same is impossible to God. And as touching the reasons alledged out of the holy scriptures : God cannot lye , nor denie himselfe : these places ( vnder correction ) serue nought to this purpose . For , as they haue brought out of the Mr. of the sentences , power to lye , power to sinne , is not power , but impotencie : contrariwise rather , if God could sinne , he should be impotent and weake : and such thing also God cannot do , for then should he repugne and destroy himselfe . And as touching the examples brought out of S. Ierome and S. Augustine , that God cannot make a virgin deflowred to bee yet a virgin , or a thing done , not to be done , that vnderstood as the Logitians say , In sensu Composito , ( that is to say , the things beeing such , and so made ) is true . And the reason is , for that it would otherwise imply a contradiction . But in the question proposed , there is nothing like therevnto : for the question onely demandeth , whether God by his power , can alter & change the nature and qualitie of things created : as whether he can make a thing heauie and masly , abiding in it qualitie of waight and massinesse ( which naturally tendeth downeward ) by the onely power of God , to hang in the ayre : as in the holy scripture we read , that the fire which naturally ascendeth , doth descend by the power of God. Also that the fire naturally hot , and burning , cooleth , the qualitie thereof ( that is to say the heate ) remaining in the substance . As also that two bodies bee in one selfe-same place : as appeared when our Lord did enter where the Apostles were , the the doores being shut : or that a grosse and large body , remaining in it grossenesse and largenesse , do passe through a place vnproportionable to it greatnesse and largenesse , as a cable through the eye of a needle . All these examples are taken out of the holy scripture . And if it must be , that God cannot make one body to be in two places at once , no more should he be able to do the things aforesaid : for , the reasons to this purpose they will afterwards declare . And it will not be found , that it hath euer entered into the braine of any Interpreter , to denie such a power : And the first that euer did openly denie it , was first Peter Marter : and after him , Beza . The Doctors further say , that the forme of the argument which the Ministers do vse , doth withstand and destroy that which God vseth in the holy scripture , and the Angell speaking to the virgin . For God ordinarily when he will assure something impossible to nature , and which men cannot comprehend , he generally alledgeth his power . And the Angell willing to make a ground of the incarnation of our Lord , doth alledge in generall , that there is nothing impossible to God , in regard of the creatures , as the Angell speaketh . Now so it is , that the generalitie of an argument is destroyed by particular exceptions , and is made by this meane vnprofitable and forcelesse . When God then alledgeth in generall , that his power can do it , one may doubt thereof , and esteeme the thing proposed of God , to bee of those , which are to him impossible , as wel as the exceptions by the Ministers alledged . And that should be false which the Angell saith : That there is nothing impossible to God : because men do alledge & propose many things to the contrary . To the end therefore , that God and his Angels bee maintained true in their words , it must not be doubted , but God can much more easily change and alter his creatures , and all their qualities , then a Potter can play with his clay , and forme at his pleasure some vessell thereof . Moreouer , there is daunger , that if we limit Gods power towards his creatures , wee fall to denie him his Lordship and dominion ouer them . For no other thing is it to be Lord of a creature , then to haue power to change , alter , and giue it such a nature and qualitie , best pleasing to him : as hauing the same in his owne power . And therefore God in Ieremy , to shewe that hee had power to destroy and ruinate , or to maintaine Ierusalem , as seemed him good , saith : I am the Lord of all flesh : is there any thing too hard for me ? Therefore the Doctors do conclude , that there is daunger ( if this question bee maintained , as impossible to God ) that each one therein will dare as much : alledging the same examples which the Ministers do , to exempt from the power of God , euery thing shall displease him . And when men shall produce vnto him such things out of the scripture , he may interpret the scripture in an other sence , saying : that such a thing shall be impossible to God by the naturall sence of the words of the scripture : Euen as the Ministers doo change and alter the scripture , which saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places . To wit , the word of the Supper , compared with that of the Ascention : and say , that that of the Supper ought not to bee vnderstood litterally : for , that one body should be in two places , is impossible to God. So say the Doctors , that each one wil corrupt the litterall sence of the scriptures , saying : that the thing is impossible vnto God. And therefore must the scriptures be otherwise vnderstood . And notwithstanding it may bee because it displeaseth him : and yet will hee bring forth the selfe-same reasons and allegations as do the Ministers , to shewe that all things are not possible to God. The Doctors do againe conclude , that it is better to maintaine the scripture in the truth thereof , ( albeit it propose in our iudgements incomprehensible and impossible things , then to open a gap for euery one , to depraue the word of God , to raunge and subiect it to his will and iudgement , vnder shadow of saying , that it is impossible to God : and alledging for the same some examples . They will not omit that the Ministers , who haue often protested to relye vpon the pure word of God , do alledge only auncient Doctors against the power of God , flying for aide to them , against Gods expresse word , which importeth , that generally without exception there is nothing impossible to him . Answere . The Minister answere , that the Doctors proue not their consequence , and that they leaue it for some distrust they haue ( as is likely ) that they are not able to proue it . They mentiō but the antecedent of their said consequence : to the confession whereof , it is not possible for them to lead the Ministers , by their reasons and authorities alledged to weaken their said consequence : for as much as of one particular , they inferre a generall : which is contrary to the rules of Logicke . And where they say that the authorities alledged by the Ministers , nothing serue to reproue their consequence , and to shew that God leaueth not to be almightie , although he cannot do any thing which doth derogate to his nature , they referre themserues therein to the said auncient authors ; which for the same end and reasons as the Ministers , doo alledge and propose the aboue said exceptions . Where they pretend that the authorities and sentences alledged out of the auncient Fathers , do nought appertaine to the present question : for as much as they denie that they should be vnderstood of other things , but those only which do containe in themselues contradiction . The Ministers do answere , that so also doth that which they propose of a body , that at on selfe instant , it may be in diuers places . For as much is it , as if they should say , that a body is , and is not , at one selfe-same time : and that a body is one , and is not one . Also that a creature is incircumscriptible , and not inclosed within certaine limits : which happening , it should no more be a creature , but God. As may bee gathered of that which S. Basil writeth in his booke of the holy Ghost , Chapter 22. saying thus : The Angell that appeared to Cornelius , was not in the same place where Phillip was . And he that spake to Zacharie from the Aultar , filled not whiles hee spake vnto him , his seate and place in heauen . But the holy Ghost is in Habacuck , and Daniel in Babylon , and in Ezeehiel vpon the floud of Chobar , for the spirit of God doth fill the earth . And the Prophet writing thereof , saith : Where shall I hide me from thy spirit ? or whither shall I flye from thy presence ? Didymus in his booke of the holy Ghost , confirming that aboue said , saith thus : Were the spirit of God a creature , his substance should he haue circumscript and limitted , as haue all things made and created . As then so it is , that the spirit of God doth fill the world , and is not circumscript , nor in any place limitted : therof it followeth , that he is God. Vigilius in the disputation hee wrote betweene Sabellius , Photius , Arrius , and Athanasius , vnder the person of Athanasius , thus writeth . Thereby may it chiefly appeare , that the spirit of God , is God : that he is euerie where , and is not contained in any one place , as the Prophet writeth : Whither shall I flye to hide me from thy spirit ? Of these places may we conclude , that if a body bee not circumscript , finished and closed in certaine limits , it is not a creature : which ought to bee vnderstood , not onely of other bodies , but of that also of Iesus Christ himselfe : as appeareth by that which Theodoret writeth in his second Dialogue , where hee thus saith : Then is the body of our Lord risen , exempted from all corruption , impassible and immortall , adorned with diuine glory , adored and worshipped of the heauenly powers . Neuerthelesse , albeit it be in such sort qualified , yet ceaseth it not therefore to be circumscript , as it was before it was glorified : whereof it followeth , that being a true body , and a creature , it cannot be in diuers places at one instance . Whereas they alledge that the foresaid examples do nothing pertaine to the question proposed : for as much as in it , the question is onely to know , whether God can chaunge the qualities in a substance , the substance remaining . The Ministers do denie it , because in the question there is mentiō of a body , which cannot be without hs measure . Now the measures and demensions are not as qualities and accidents which may happen to a body , and depart from it without corrupting thereof , ( which is the nature and condition of accidents ) but are of it proper essence . So that it is impossible that a body should bee a body , which is not measured and circumscript . The first example they produce for confirmation of their saying is , that a massie thing ( which naturally for the waight thereof declineth downward ) may be lifted on high . Wherevnto the Ministers do answere , that it may be done , and that by violent motion . But that this example nought serueth to ouerthrow that they haue said , for as much as such things in themselues containe no contradiction ; and that they are not contrary to the essence of the thing where they happen . For a stone which a man throweth vpward , doth not therefore cease to be a stone , neither by such a mouing , is it not depriued of the waightinesse thereof . To the example of the fire , they answere : that it is one selfesame reason of light , as of heauie things : and that without any corruption of their essence , their naturall mouings may be changed by some force and violence done vnto them . And as touching that they alledge of fire , which ( contrary to it nature , namely to heat and burne ) refreshed the three Iewes in the Babilonian furnace : they answere , that the fire therefore was nothing altered in the essence nor qualiries thereof : which may easily appeare , in that it spared the three Iewes , and burned and consumed those which kindled the same . Whereof may be inferred , that the cause why it did not offend them , proceeded not because the nature or qualities thereof were any way changed , but onely because the action thereof was suspended . And where they alledge , that two bodies may be at one instant in one selfe-same place together : and for proofe therof , propose that which is written in S. Iohn , that Iesus Christ did enter where his Disciples were , the doores beeing shut : the Ministers do answere , that it is not so in the text : but the text sheweth that the Disciples beeing assembled in a place , Iesus Christ stood & appeared in the middest of them . Whereof can be no way inferred , that hee entred into the place where they were , without opening of the doores , nor that hee pierced them to enter therein . And very like it is , that they were opened and shut againe , as well as those which the Angell did open and shut againe , when hee was sent to deliuer S. Peter out of prison : and when likewise hee was sent for the Apostles deliuerance . As touching that they propose of a grosse body passing through a straight place , alledging the example of a Cable through the eye of a needle . The Ministers answere , that it is ill to the purpose alledged , and is an argument grounded vpon a thing impossible . They say moreouer that the Doctors haue all vnderstood the word Camilos : vsurped in the scripture , not for a Cable , but for a Camell : as to them it is manifest , which are but meanely seene in the antiquities of the Hebrewes . And as appeareth by that which Angelius Caninius writeth in the end of his Caldean Grammer . And for the conclusion which the Doctors drawe from the precedent examples , it is from the purpose , and founded vppon presupposed antecedents and premisses by them brought ; which in the sence they alledge them for the reasons aboue declared , they neither haue , nor will confesse vnto them . Where they say , that what the Ministers haue said touching a body , that it cannot be in two places at one instant , were it the body of Iesus Christ it selfe , was neuer written by any of the auncient Fathers , nor proposed before the comming of Peter Martyr , and Theodoret Beza . The Ministers do maintaine that it was . And that S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus , saith the same in these tearmes : According to this forme ( meaning the corporall forme of Iesus Christ ) we must not thinke that it is euery where . And wee must beware least in establishing in him his diuinitie , we take not frō him the veritie of his body . And else-where hee saith : That by reason of the nature and measure of a true body , hee is in one place in heauen . The selfe-same thing saith Therdoret in his second Dialogue , as hath bene before alledged . And so doth Vigilius in his fourth booke against Eutiches : where hee writeth as followeth . If the word and flesh be but of one nature , how commeth it to passe that the flesh is not found euery where as the word ( of which word it was taken , to constitute one selfe-same person and Hypostaly ) is euery where ? for when it was on the earth , it was not in heauen : and now that it is in heauen , surely it is not on the earth . And so farre off is it that he is there , that we attend Iesus Christ to come according to his flesh : whom neuerthelesse we beleeue as he is the word , to be here on earth with vs. By these and other like authorities , often found in the writings of the Fathers , men may know that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza are not the first authors of this doctrine , and that it is falsly imputed to them : for as much as they haue but drawne , and word by word , copied ( as it were ) the same , out of the bookes of the auncient Fathers . To that which the Doctors pretend , that the forme of arguing which the Ministers haue vsed , affirming some things to be impossible to God , doth not derogate his omnipotēcie : ouerthroweth the forme of the argument which the Angell speaking to the virgin , vseth for cōfirmatiō of that which he declared vnto her : that is , that nothing is impossible to God. The Ministers do answere , that it is nothing to the purpose , for as much as the question is neither of a thing which containeth in it self any contradiction , nor that is contrary to the truth of God : which be the two matters they haue alledged , and yet do alledge for the expositiō of the omnipotencie of God. And touching that which the Doctors do adde , that God can change the nature and qualitie of things , there is no man doubteth the same . But whē that is done , it behoueth also to auow , that the things be changed , & that they remain not in their first nature . And the Ministers say , that it is not all one with the thing here proposed : for as much as the Doctors wil haue a thing to remain in it essence and nature , although the essentiall parts therof be changed , & altogether extinct and abolished . Touching the limitation of the power of God towards his creatures , there is none so presumptuous to attempt to limit the same , in whatsoeuer he wil : and which confesseth not , that he may ordaine & dispose of all his creatures in generall , as it pleaseth him , & as a Potter doth of his earth . And thervnto ( say they ) ought the authoritie of Ieremy to be referred : as it appeareth very clearly by these Hebrew words . L● gippale Mimmecha col-dauar . To wit , nothing shal be hard to thee ô Lord. Concerning the danger which the Doctors pretend may come of the abouesaid answeres of the Ministers , they answer , that men of sound and good judgement wil neuer drawe thereof any euill consequence , seeing that all this doctrine is true , and doth containe no manner of obscuritie . And if any peraduenture take harme thereby , it must bee imputed to themselues , and their euill vnderstanding ; whereby not onely some doctrine , but also the word of God it selfe , may be sometimes peruerted and corrupted . To be short , all things ( as saith the Apostle ) be cleane to those that be cleane , and polluted to those that be polluted , and haue an euill conscience . And where the Doctors alledge that one may take occasion by the doctrine abouesaid , to interpret the scriptures according to his owne sence and fantasie , the Ministers say no. And where some one would attempt the same , they say it shall be easie to reiect his interpretation , as not answerable to the rules and analogie of faith : as the foresaid doctrine and interpretation of the Ministers is answerable therevnto . Where the Doctors say , that the Ministers do change and alter the scriptures . The Ministers answere , that it is a slaunder , which can no way bee proued against them : neither by their writings , nor by their speeches , nor by any thing they euer said or thought . Concerning what they adde , that the scripture saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places , the Ministers denie it , and do say , that contrariwise the scriptures do establish it in heauen , and nor else-where : according as it is written . The heauens must containe him vntill the time that all things bee restored which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy Prophers since the world began . And where they alledge that the scripture ought not to bee interpreted according to euery mans sence and phantasie ; the Ministers do confesse it , adding that all interpretations ought to bee examined , as S. Paul saith : but that such examination must bee done by conference of the scriptures . And where the Doctors accuse the Ministers not to haue alledged any passages of the scripture for confirmation of the foresaid doctrine , before they produced the auncient Fathers . The Ministers do answere , that it is a false accusation : and that they should well haue remembred in the beginning of their discourse , that they alledged to this end , S. Paul. 2. Tim. 2. Where it is said , that God cannot denie himselfe . And that which is written Hebr. 6. It is impossible that God can lye . Which places , with those they produced out of the auncient Fathers , were not alledged to diminish ought the omnipotencie of God : But rather to establish the same ; and cut off the way to many impieties and blasphemies : which they would falsly propose and shrowde them vnder pretext of the omnipotencie of God , without hauing regard to his reuealed will , wherevnto we must referre the Omnipotencie . The sixt dayes Dispute on Tuesday , the 16. of Iuly . THe Doctors obiect , that they haue made such an argument , God cannot cause one body to be in two places . God is not therfore Omnipotent . That this cōsequence is necessarie it is most manifest : without other proofe , by the lawe of contradiction . For according to the rule holden in all schooles of Philosophie , two contradictions cannot be true : To haue power to do all things , and to haue no power in certain particular things , be contradictions . For this particular thing , is a part of all . If thē the Antecedent be true , of necessitie the consequence must be false , according to the lawe of contradiction : for they two as contradictories cannot be true together . And notwithstanding , albeit that by the knowledge of the termes thēselues , a man might iudge the consequence to be good : neuerthelesse , it is plainly knowne by the deduction of the obiectiō against the answere of the Ministers , that the Doctors haue proued the consequence . The reason of the Ministers was thus : God cannot lye : hee cannot sinne : hee cannot cause that things made , be not made . Therfore it either repugneth his nature , or there is repugnancie on the behalf of the creatures : bicause there is a folded contradiction . Now the Doctors in their obiection haue said , that there is nothing like in the question proposed : that is to say , whether one bodie may be in two places . Whervpon they make such an argument , taken from their obiection , God can do all things which are not repugnant to his nature , or where there is no repugnancie in the behalfe of things created : and that no contradiction is therin implyed . But to affirme one body , may be in two places , at one selfe-same instant , is not a thing repugnant to the nature of God , and on the behalfe of the body , implyeth no contradiction : God therefore can do it . Or else thus . God cannot do it : It followeth therefore , that God is not Omnipotent . And so is proposed the reason and deduction of the antecedent and consequent . Yea and the proofe of the assumptiō or second proposition : For they haue proued there is no contradiction in saying that one body might be in two places ; and that it doth not repugne the nature of GOD , whereof the probation hath bene made , by example of like things . As God can cause two bodies to be in one place , and other like reasons deducted in the Obiection . And where the Doctors ( say they ) preposterously argue from a particular to a generall , It seemeth ( vnder correction ) they haue forgotten the rules of Lodgicke . For very certaine it is , that this rule hath place in affirming , and not in denying . But contrariwise , when there is some thing affirmed in generall , and the default in particular proued , ( as say Logitians ) Ad negationem particularis , sequitur negatio eius quod vniuersaliter affirmatuum est . Likewise when there is some of a whole thing which hath many parts affirmed : and default is proued in one part , the destruction of the whole followeth . As if one should say : All the bodie is sound . Hee that should proue one part of the bodie diseased , should proue this proposition [ All the bodie is sound ] to be false . Such is the argument which the Doctors haue made ( to wit ) : If God cannot do one particular thing ( as to cause one bodie to be in two places ) then he cannot do all things . Or if he can do all things , he can do that also . They are agrieued to be sent backe to their Logicke . For they regarded no other ende , but to make the antecent to be graunted : to wit , that God cannot make one bodie to be in two places . And are verie glad , to haue vnderstood the resolution of the Ministers vpon this Article : that is to say , That God cannot cause , nor will one bodie to bee in two places : for as much as it implyeth contradiction . And where the Ministers doo say , that the Doctors by their reasons , could not thereof inferre the truth of the antecedent : The Doctors confesse the same . And thereby doo the Ministers also sufficiently perceiue , that the reasons they haue brought , are nothing worth to the confirmation of the antecedent , which is their resolution . But the Doctors say : that these reasons , albeit they be nought , were to this end neuerthelesse produced by the Ministers , to proue , that it was impossible to God , to make one bodie to be in two places . Concerning this Article , which beginneth [ Touching that which they say that the authorities , &c. ] The Doctors obiect that the auncient Fathers neuer thought to make exception of any thing , which is not subiect to the power of God. For ( as it is manifest ) hee that saith all , excepteth nothing . Therefore , when the Scripture saith , that God is almightie , it giueth sufficiently to vnderstand , that there is no exception . And to giue exception therein , should be to contradict to many places of the word of God , and to blaspheme against his power . But well say the Doctors , that the Fathers haue interpreted the Omnipoteucie of God : not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature , but that only which concerneth the Creatures : So that there were not on their part too apparant contradiction , and repugnancie . Now the present question importeth not , that there is contradiction for a bodie to be a bodie , and in diuers places at one selfe-same instant . For concerning the essence of bodies , in speaking of a bodie hauing it dimensions , as speake the Philosophers , De praedicamento quantitatis : Certaine it is , that the dimensions are of the essence of a bodie ; but to be circumscript and inclosed in a place , that is an accident . Which thing is shewed by Philosophie it selfe : For the most high heauen , according to all , is a bodie , and neuerthelesse is it not in place according to it all . Therefore is it not an essentiall thing , for a bodie to be enclosed in one place . And to speake of the present matter , the Ministers should be very much troubled to prooue , that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in one place in heauen : seeing it is written in the 4. Chapter to the Ephesians , he is mounted aboue all the heauens : out of which , there is no place , as they speak of places , in regard of bodies , according to nature . And were it so , that it should be essential to a body , to be in one place ( according to the rule which the Ministers deliuer ) an other blasphemy would follow against the Omniporencie of God , that God could not make a body , and place the same aboue all heauens . And to speake more vniuersally , that God could not make a bodie without place , and roomth equall to it greatnes . Touching the Allegations proposed by the Ministers , of certaine auncient Authors , The Doctors do obiect , that the said Allegations are against themselues : For as much as to be inclosed in a place , doth not depend of the essence of a bodie , nor of it measures : as appeareth by the authorities produced , wherein there is mentiō made of Angels , which haue not bodies . It is not therefore an essentiall reason for the demensions of a body to be contained in a place . And all this furniture of authorities maketh nothing to the purpose : For they tend but to shewe , that the naturall proprietie of creatures , is different from the diuine nature , as S. Basil saith expresly in the place by the Ministers alledged . And S. Ambrose in his first booke of the holy Ghost , Cap. 7. where the same Authors doo declare , that God by his nature may be euery where : and the creatures by their natures , not so . But the said Authors pretend not , that God by his Omnipotencie cannot make one body to be in diuers places : For the same Authors ( or their like ) when they come to speak of the power of God in the holy Sacrament , they affirme , that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in heauen , and in the holy Sacrament . And affirme , that the Angels and spirits of the blessed , may by the same power , be in many places . As the Doctors will shew in their resolution . Where the Ministers say , that a body must be circumscript without place , according to the essentiall proprietie : that hath bene formerly shewed to be false . And the Ministers do confound the name of body : which sometimes doth signifie substance , sometimes quantitie , hauing it dimensions , breadth , length , and deepnesse : which dimensions be essentiall in a body , taking the body for a kinde of quantitie : and not in a substantiall body : for it is an accident . Now certaine it is , that God can seperate the accidents from a body , and make a substance without accidents : otherwise there would follow an other blasphemie : that God could not seperate the accident , from a subiect and substance . And where the Ministers say , that a stone by a violent mouing , may bee cast on high , that is no answere to the question . For the Doctors doo demaund ( for as much as it is essentiall and naturall to a massy and terrestriall body , in regard of the massinesse and waight thereof tending downeward ) whether God by his onely power , contrary to the naturall proprietie of a massy and waightie body , cannot hold and hang it vp on high ? And as touching the euasion which the Ministers make from a very strong and mightie argument against their doctrine , that two bodies may be in one place , by the proofe that is made , taken from the scripture , ( not onely to proue that God can cause two bodies to be in one place , but euen that he hath done it ) serueth nothing to couer their error , in saying that it is not said in S. Iohn , that our Lord did enter by the shut doores : but that he was found standing in the midst of them : where the said Ministers haue concealed and omitted this verbe venit : and do stay onely vpon the verbe stetit . For the expresse text in S. Iohn . cap. 21. 19. saieth : That the doores being shut , Iesus came into the place where the Disciples were assembled , and was there in the middest of them . They demaund of them , for as much as the scripture saith , that he came thither , the doores beeing shut , and that hee was found in the middest of them : whether hee were found in the middest of them , and in the said place , without entring thereinto : or whether hee there entered , for as much as the text saith ; that the doores were shut when he came ; How they will proue by the scripture that he entred , if not by the shut doores ? For a much greater myracle should it be , to be found in the middest of his Disciples , without being entred into the place where they were . Too light is that shift , to say it is not written that he entred . For S. Augustine in his booke De agone Christiano , cap. 24. saieth thus . Nec nos moueat quod clausis hostijs subitò eum apparuisse Dicipulis scriptum est : vt propterea negemus illud fuisse corpus humanum , quia contra naturam huius corporis videmus illudper clausa hostia intrare . Omnia enim possibilia sunt Deo , Nam & ambulare super aquas contra naturam huius corporis esse manifestum est , & tamen non solum ipse Dominus ante passionem ambulauit , sed etiam Petrum ambulare fecit . Let it not moue vs , because it is written , that the doores being shut , he suddenly appeared to his Disciples ; that we therefore denie that body to haue bene humane , because wee see it against the nature of this body , to enter by the closed doores . For to God are all things possible . For to walke also vpon the waters , is manifestly against the nature of this body : And yet the Lord himselfe not onely walked before his passion , but also caused Peter to walke . Where it appeareth , that S. Augustine saith plainly , that our Lord did enter by the shut doores : and referreth all to the omnipotencie of God. Moreouer , the text of S. Luke , ioyned with that of Saint Iohn , doth shewe that he entred through the doores . For no reasonable occasion had the Apostles had , to thinke it was a spirit , and not a body , seeeing him before them in the likenesse of a man : but for that he was entred otherwise then a true body , and very man could enter . That is , for that he was entred by the closed doores : which thing a true man , and a true body in no wise can doo . To say that the doores were opened , and afterwards shut again by myracle , or otherwise , should nothing auaile . For so may a true man , and a true body be there : and therefore no cause can a man haue to think it a spirit , or vaine vision . The Doctors say moreouer , that all the auncient heretikes and Christians , did commonly agree , that Iesus Christ passed through : but such was their difference , as now it is between the Ministers & Doctors . The auncient heretikes said , that Iesus Christ after his resurrection , had not a true body , because he did workes contrary to the nature of a body , which implied contradiction to a naturall body : to wit , that at one selfe instant , he was in one selfe-same place with an other body : as when he passed through the doores . The auncient Catholike Christians answered , that such indeed was the nature of a body , that it could not passe through the doores : through the body of the virgin in his birth , without fracture : through the stone of the Sepulchre in it resurrection : but neuerthelesse , that two bodies should be together , by the omnipotencie of God , implied no contradiction : for as much as it so hapned in the three cases done and recited . The first that speaketh therof , is Iustine Martir , in the 117. question against the Gentiles : where hee saith . If a thicke body be hindred to passe through the doores , how did our Lord after his resurrection enter the shut doores ? And if it bee so , why was the stone remoued by the Angell from off the Sepulchre , to the end his body might rise againe ? He answereth thus . That euen as our Lord without changing his body into a spirit , walked vpon the sea ▪ but by his diuine power he made the sea solide to walke vpon ; not onely for his owne body , but for that of S. Peter . So by his diuine power he came forth of the sepulchre , the stone remaining thervpon , and entered to his Disciples , the doores beeing shut . Hereby we vnderstand , that the things which proceed of diuers vertues , ought to haue the same faith . And we must know , that the things which surpasse nature , whē they are wrought in it by diuine power , ought not to be measured according to the reason & proprietie of nature . For this cause , our Lord seeing his Disciples troubled at such an entry , did propose vnto them the parts of his body , and the places and markes of his wounds , to be touched , to shew he was not entred by change of his body into a spirite : but with his body composed of it dimensions and thicknesse : and by his diuine almightinesse , which made all things that surpasse the strength of nature . Saint Hillary in his third booke of the Trinitie : But thou ( saith hee ) which wilt search into the things insearchable , and wil● be Iudge of the secrets of God ▪ and his power : I aske counsell of thee , giue onely a reason and solution of this fact , to mee that 〈◊〉 and do simply beleeue in God concerning all things , euen as hee hath said and pronounced them ? I vnderstand that the Lord was often present after his resurrectio● to he seene and knowne of them which beleeued him not . The self-same Lord , applying himselfe to the weaknesse of out vnderstanding , and to satisfie the doubts of the 〈◊〉 doth shewe a secret and a worke of his almightinesse ▪ Expound to me the● , whosoeuer thou art , which wilt beeade archer of the omnipotencie of God , the reason of this dee●●t The Disciples being shut vp and withdrawne together in secret , the Lord is proposed to Thomas , to confirme his faith , according to the conditions he desired : to wit , that he might touch his body , and proue his wounds , And for this cau●ent behoued him to bring the true body with him , wherein he had receiued such wounds . I demaund then , for as much as he was corporall , by what part of the house entred hee in ? For I see that the Eu●ngelist diligently expresseth , that Iesus came when the doores were shut , and was found in the middest of his Disciples : to wit , whether he pierced the thicke walles , and the great lettes of timber betweene both ? Certaine it is , that without fiction or guile hee there entered . Let thy conceit followe and consider his entrie , and thy vnderstanding enter into the house shut within . All thou seest , is whole and fast locked ; and yet is l●ee found in the middest of his Disciples : but it is , because all things by his almightinesse are open to him . Thou slaunderest things inuisible . I aske thee againe the reason of this thing there visible ? Nothing of the wall or solide doores gaue backe , or made way . Contrariwise I see that wood and stones by their nature cannot receiue such an entrie . The body of our Lord was not quite vanished , to bee eftsoones taken and made of nothing . Whence then commeth it , that he is found in the middest of them without opening ? Sence and speech do herein faile , and the truth of the deed , is beyond humane reason . As then we are abused , concerning the birth of the sonne of God , we lye also concerning such an entry . The deed is false say we , it so happened not , because we cannot vnderstand the reason thereof : and for that our sence and iudgemenr faileth , we say there is no such deed . But the faith and beliefe of the deed , doth conuince our lying . The Lord ( the doores being shut ) is found in the middest of the Apostles , and the sonne of God is borne of his Father . Denie not that hee thus entred , because by the infirmitie of thy spirit , thou canst not comprehend such an entrie . I could amplifie like deeds in all the creatures : but the Lord hath well prouided for himselfe , to haue contained vs in necessitie and modestie , by the nature of our bodies . Sufficiently we shewe , that we would make our selues an other God , had we power so to do . For as much as wee cannot by the boldnesse of our wicked will , ruinate the nature of truth , we gainsay it at least , and contend with the word of God. S. Ambrose in his tenth booke vpon S. Luke , cap. 24. saith , through the doores . S. Chrysostome vpon S. Iohn , proueth by such ane ntrie , that Iesus Christ was so borne of the Virgin , that she remained a Virgin in her child-birth , and after , without any manner of fraction . And concludeth , that the one and the other deed proceedeth from the omnipotencie of God. The said Chrysostome in his second Homily vpon the Apostles Creed , saith these words : How is it that Iesus Christ entred the closed doores ? &c. because such things are aboue our reach , and we cannot render a reason of that myracle , we hold it by faith . S. Ierome in his first booke against Iouinian , and in the Epistle to Pamachiuns , against the errors of Iohn of Ierusalem , who said , that Iesus after his resurrection , had not a true body , because it was impossible that a true body should passe through the doores : and that it should be in one self-same place with an other body ) answereth : It hindereth not , but that the nature of the body remaineth , for as much as this act proceedeth from the omnipotencie of God. And thus saith : Tell me , thou subtill disputer , which is greater , to hang the huge greatnesse of the earth vpon nothing , and to ballance it aboue the bricklenesse of the waters : or for God to passe through a shut doore , & a creature to obey his Creator ? To that which is the greater thou easily agreest , and slaunderest that which is lesser . S. Augustine in his 13. Epistle , for an example of the omnipotencie of God , reciteth also this deed : to shewe that our Lord was borne of the Virgin without any rupture of her body : and to declare that the omnipotencie of God is greater then we can comprehend . Againct the Valentinians and others , which denied the true substance of the body of Iesus Christ , for that contrary to the nature of a body , he so passed . S. Augustine in his booke called De agone Christiano , alledgeth the same deed . Amphilochius and Theodoret in the 2. Dialogue , disputing of this deed against Eutiches , who said also , that after the resurrection , the humanitie of Iesus Christ was changed into his diuinitie : because , contrary to the nature of a body , he so passed through the shut doores , do answere as the others . That such an effect importeth not contradiction to the nature of a body : for as much as it proceeded of the omnipotencie of God , and not of the nature of the body . Cirell in his 12. booke vpon S. Iohn , reprehendeth those also which will measure the myracles and works of God according to their owne iudgement , and the proprietie of creatures : and very sharply speaketh against them . S. Augustine in his first booke against Iulian , cap. 2. recyteth , That Iouinian was an heretike , because he said , that there was fraction in the virgin in her childbirth . And so said he , for feare of falling into the heresie of the Manachees , who thought that Iesus Christ had not a true body , because he was borne without fraction of his mother . To auoyd then this heresie , hee rather denied that the ●rgin remained a Virgin. The like heresie is imputed to Origen , and some also alledge that the Fathers ( as Tertullian ) had such an opinion . By these testimonies do the Doctors conclude , that two bodies to pierce themselues , and be in one self-same place , by diuine power doth not imply any contradiction . Which places were they wel considered , they would not receiue a new interpretation against the very expresse word of God : seeing the text without contradiction doth beare that Iesus Christ came to his Disciples , the doores being shut . How Caluin in his Institution hath deptaued the sence of that place of S. Iohn , with other like , may plainly appeare , where he saith thus . That which they eftsoones alledge , that Iesus Christ came out of the Sepulchre without opening the same , and that hee entred in to his Disciples the doores of the chamber beeing shut , is of no value , further to maintaine their error . For as the water serued Iesus Christ for a firme pauement , to walke vpon the lake : so also ought it not seeme straunge , if the hardnesse of the stone were softned to giue him passage . And Beza in his second Dialogue against Heshusius saith , that the stone was vanished , to the end that our Lord might passe in his resurrection : and God did afterwards reforme it . It followeth in the text of Caluin : As also to enter into a chamber the doores shut , is not to say that hee pierced the wood , but onely that he made an opening by his diuine power : so that by a myraculous fashion , he was found in the middest of his Disciples , although the doores were were shut . Moreouer he saith : That which they bring of S. Luke : to wit , that hee vanished suddenly from his Disciples which went to Emaus , serueth nought for them , and maketh for our aduantage . For he was not made inuisible by taking away the sight of his body : but he onely vanished . As also witnesseth the same Euangelist : In walking he was not transfigured nor disguised , to be made inuisible , but their eyes were holden . Such ridiculous and friuolous expositions are brought by Caluin and his like , to auoyd confessing , that God can make one body to be in diuers places . And neuerthelesse , the proper text of the scripture doth witnesse that two bodies may be by the power of God , in one selfesame place . As also it witnesseth that a body hauing colour , and before visible , by the power of God , was made inuisible , without any let to their sight that could see . As S. Luke doth confirme , saying : Aphantos Egeneto Ap'auton , Inuisibilis factus est ab ipsis . Although there was no defect on the behalfe of the Disciples . For it is said before , that their eyes were opened , that they might know him : and herevpon agreeth all antiquitie . An other act do the Doctors adde , for confirmation of the penitration of dimensions . Which is , that our Lord ascended into the heauens , which he neither diuided , nor claue asunder . Therefore of necessitie did hee pierce them : as the scripture it selfe in proper termes importeth . The Doctors shewe also to the said Ministers , that they cannot produce one only renowned Father , hauing expounded these places , from whom they might learne their so diuers interpretations . And that which they bring of the Acts of the Apostles , where mention is made , that S. Peter came forth of prison , nought serueth to colour their exposition . In which text , there is nothing spoken of the opening of the prison doores . And it is not said ( as in S. Iohn ) that the doores of the prison being shut , S. Peter came forth : but that the Angell came thither , when the keepers before the doore kept the prison . Where if they say , that the doores were opened to S. Peter , that agreeth not with the saying of Saint Iohn , that the doores were shut when as our Lord entered . The like reason brought by the Ministers out of the fift of the Acts of the Apostles , and for the same cause , is as vnprofitable for this purpose , as the former . And to shewe clearely and euidently , that God ( contrary to the naturall proprietie of a body ) can make a great and thicke body to passe in a space and place vnequall to it greatnesse , largenesse , and thicknesse . The Doctors cyted what our Lord saith in the 19. of S. Mathew : It is easier for a Cable to goe through the eye of a needle , then for a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen . Two things haue the Ministers answered vnto : the one , that in the translation wee must not vse Cable , but rather Camel : although neuertheles their own French Bible of Anthony Rebulls impression , which they haue brought , containeth the translation of this word Cable . And Caluin himself likewise in his Hermony of the foure Euangelists , saith that to bee better . But here in appeareth to be truth what Tertullian against the Valentinians ; and before him , Ireneus in his first booke and 14. Chapter against the Valentinians doo say : That they which seperate themselues from vs to go to an other schoole , do alwaies inuent some new thing , that the disciples may bee found more cunning then their Maisters . But well , this word [ Camell ] beeing yeelded vnto them , ( as the Doctors doubt not to haue bene expounded by Saint Hillary , S. Ierom , and others ) the reason thereof is yet more strong . For it is yet more repugnant that a crooked , grosse , and great Camell ( then a Cable ) should enter through the eye of a needle . The other reason giuen by the Ministers is , that God cannot make a Camel or Cable to enter throgh the eye of a needle : which is notwithstanding , against the pure word of Iesus Christ , who saith not , it is is impossible to God , but rather easie to do that , and by comparison , more easie vnto God , then to make a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen : which neuerthelesse is said by our Lord to be possible : not vnto men , but vnto God : to whom there is nothing vnpossible . Whervpō the Doctors say thus , If God can do that which is more difficult , he can doo that which is more easie . Now by the text of the scripture , it is said that God can make a rich man enter into the kingdome of heauen , which is the more difficult ; he can therfore make a Camell ( or Cable ) to enter through the eye of a needle , which is more easie . The answeres of the Ministers here aboue confuted , tend to such absurdities and blasphemies , that Iesus Christ by his almightinesse , could not enter through the closed doores : that hee could not come forth of the belly of his mother , through her body without fraction : that he could not make a visible body , to be inuisible : that a grosse and great body might be in a place vnequall to it : that hee could not by his diuine power make penetration of dimensions : and that he could not make by the same diuine power , one body to bee in two places ( for it is like reason , of the last article and of the others ) albeit such things are declared in the scriptures , not onely to be possible , but euen the most part of them to haue bene done . And the Doctors do wonder how the Ministers dare denie such things , seeing themselues must necessarily confesse ( if their doctrine of the Supper be true ) that the body of Iesus Christ is in diuers places : which they proue thus . The faithfull really receiue in their soules the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ , by the working of the holy Ghost , and not the bread and the wine onely : or else ( as saith Caluin in the 4 booke , 17. Chapter , and 11. section of his Institution ) the effect and vertue of the same Sacrament . Now the Doctors conclude thus . It is impossible for a man to receiue into him the substance of the body of Iesus Christ , but the body of Iesus Christ is in him . But all the faithfull in the Supper do receiue the same into their soules , therefore must the body of Iesus Christ be in them : and by consequent in diuers places : to wit , in all places where their Supper is made : and likewise in heauen . They say further , that Caluin in his Institution , the fourtth booke , 17. Chapter , and 24. sect . saith : That in the Supper , the power of God is required : to the ende that the flesh of Iesus Christ may pierce euen vnto vs : and that humane nature cannot comprehend the same . But it behoueth that the power of God doo worke therein . And by this meane , Caluin doth admit by the power of God , the flesh of Iesus Christ in many places : to wit , in heauen , and in vs , into whom it must pierce by the power of God. And in the tenth number he saith : That the truth signified , and represented by the signes , must bee represented and exhibited in the same place where the signes be . Which hee proueth by reason in many places : to wit , that the signes must no more bee voyd , then the Doue was voyd of the holy Ghost . But as the essence and substance of the holy Ghost was conioyned and present with the Doue : so the flesh and bloud of our Lord , before there be a true Sacrament , must be conioyned and vnited with the signes . The passages are against Heshusius , and in his booke of the Supper : and vpon the first of the 11. Chapter to the Corinthians . And although the Ministers will answere : the Doctors beseech them well to weigh and consider the text of Caluin , and of the reason he giueth of the holy Ghost . They doo obiect further , that the Ministers in their Supper doo attribute more to the humane power , then to the omnipotencie of God : yea they do more then God can do : which is , that they brag to do a thing by their faith , which implyeth contradiction : saying in their confession of faith exhibited to the Bishops in the congregatiō at Poissy ; That faith maketh things absent , to be present , in one selfe-same instant and place . That is to say , in the soules of the faithfull , when they celebrate their Supper : which is as much to say , as faith maketh things not present , present at one selfe-same instant and place . So that to euery faithfull in the Supper , comming worthily therevnto , is the body of Iesus Christ there present by the power of faith . And neuerthelesse it is not there present ; for they say so : and that it is onely in heauen . Wherein appeareth that there is implication of contradiction : to wit , present , & not really present . And the small starting hole they told vs of , that the body is aboue corporally , and spiritually in the Supper in the harts of the faithfull , can serue for nothing . For the spiritualtie cannot take away the substance of the thing : and their faith cannot make a body , not to be a body : and that a body haue not it dimensions , as heretofore they haue said . Therefore howsoeuer they confesse , that the faithfull in the Supper receiue into their soules the substance of the body of Iesus Christ , will they or nill they , must they necessarily confesse , that either their faith is more mightie then the infinite vertue and power of God : or else that God can make his body to be locally in heauen ; and Sacramentally ( really neuerthelesse and substantially ) in the Sacrament of the Aultar . Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point : and then afterwards to put their answere in writing . And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God , that their faith can make at one instant , and one selfe-same place , a thing to be present , and not present . And one thing present , and not present by faith : is as much to say , as that the body of Iesus Christ is in , and not in a faithfull person . And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull , to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen , were not the said flesh but in heauen , and notwithstanding came vnto vs. And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors , that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said , that God could not make one body to bee in two places : and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine , which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie . The Doctors say , they haue often prayed the Ministers ( that time might be spared , things better cleared ) to speake nothing from the purpose . Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers , to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript , and cannot be naturally in many places : but those Authors say not that God cannot do it . But S. Augustine , and others , in the places cyted by the Doctors , touching the article of the closed doores , do rather witnesse , that two bodies by the power of God , may occupie one selfe-same place , which is of like difficultie . And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ , they will euidently shewe , that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament , haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen , and here belowe in the Sacrament : but all with one accord , haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ , that he is in heauen , and here in the Sacrament . The Doctors demaund of the Ministers , whether they haue any , that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza , denied such power of God. And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers , to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places . The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr , from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought . Concerning the Article which beginneth ( Touching that which the Doctors pretend , that the forme &c. ) The Doctors say , that this forme is common , as often as men will debate of the power of God. And they cannot be better guided to proue it , then to follow the words of the Angel : That there is nothing impossible to God. From the which , when a man will except something , hee will alwaies bring , what the Ministers do bring : that there is some repugnancy of things , whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction . As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ ; who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature . And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection , and incarnation : as though there had bene contradiction , that God should be man , and man should be God. And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit , to forge some contradiction in his conceit , according to the proprieties of nature . And concerning the Article beginning ( As touching that which the Doctors do adde , that God can change , &c. ) The Doctors say , that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning : for they take for an absurd thing , that a substance remaining affected of his qualities , can by the power of God haue effects , contrary to his qualities . As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire , hauing his naturall heate , to coole , in stead of burning , which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny . Concerning the Article beginning ( Touching the limitation of the power , &c. ) The Doctors say ; that it seemeth by the Ministers answere , that the power of God is limited according to his will : as much to say , as God cannot doo but what he will : which is notoriously false . For the Hebrew alledged , the Ministers ( it seemeth ) are willing to shew they are skilfull therin . For such summoning is not to the purpose , when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar : which is as much to say , as one thing . But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done : they said , to be done . And such is the sence of the place ad verbum . Shall there be any thing hidden from me ? And because hard things are hidden , & things impossible also are yet more hidden ; Behold why they haue translated , Is there any thing hard ( or impossible ) to mee ▪ Which holy Pagninus , and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue , do wel declare , that the verbe [ Pala ] signifieth to hide . The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto , but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them . Cōcerning the article beginning , Touching the danger , &c. The Doctors say , that they are words superfluous ; and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring , the same may other vse , and retort against the said Ministers . And where they say it is a slaunder , in that they obiect vnto them , that they corrupt the scripture , the Doctors say , that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence & glose the words of the Supper . This is my body . This is my bloud . And with like authoritie , as they ( vnder pretence of I know not what reasons ) may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures , & alledge some impossibilities , & contradictiōs of nature . As touching the article beginning , To that which they adde , that the scripture saith , that the body &c. The Doctors do say , that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected , when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar . Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation ; to wit , that God cannot make one body to be in two places , vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture : or can thereof deduct the same . The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these : that God cannot lye : God cannot denie himselfe . But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth . God cannot lye : God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places : which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose . Ioyned , that when it is said God cannot lye , as the Ministers themselues haue cyted , to be able to lye : is not power , but infirmitie . So that according to the true sense , it was meet so to say ; God is not weake that he can lye . Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places : which consequence should be ridiculous . And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers , to proue there is diuersitie betweene the creatures , and Creator : and that the Creator by nature is euery where , and naturally the creatures be not in diuers places : the Doctors reuerently imbrace the authoritie of the holy Fathers : But to produce the said places for cōfirmation of a thing so well knowne , and not doubted of , their trauell was now needlesse . But the Doctors yet attend one sole place of the scripture ; or one sole testimony of the auncient Fathers , which saith : That God cannot make one body to be in diuers places . The Doctors pray the Ministers , that with like reuerence , they receiue the auncient Fathers : chiefly touching the interpretation of holy scriptures : whose exposition ( as are the places aboue cyted ) shal be agreed vpon betweene them and the Ministers . Vpon request made to the Lord Neuers on the behalfe of the Ministers , that hee would please to assigne a day for answere , particularly to all and euery article and slaunders here aboue proposed by the Doctors in their obiection : The said Lord ordained , that the Ministers should carry with them that euening , one of the Copies of the Doctors obiections against them ; to be ready the next morrow by noone , to answer thervnto : which the Doctors agreed vnto . And made likewise request to the said Lord of Neuers , to haue leaue ( if it so seemed them good ) to reply to the answers that the Ministers should make . And therwith to deliuer their resolution , touching this article of the omnipotency of God. To th' end to proceed , and examine the reall truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar . Whervnto the Ministers added : that they also for their parts , would deliuer a briefe resolution of all that which shall be deduced by them . The company assembled on the morrow beeing Wednesday , the 17. of Iuly , My Lord of Neuers , considering that the Doctors the day before had imployed all the time , without any left for the Ministers to make present answere to them : supposed no lesse time would be needfull for the Ministers to answerefully , which had bene a thing tedious and irksome . For this cause , and others by him declared : he ordained , they should thenceforth speake by writing . And that the Ministers should carry with them the Copie which was giuen them , to make answere therevnto : and to send it vnto him , signed by them , and two Notaries . Of which he would cause a Copie to be written by his Secretary , to giue it to the Doctors , reseruing the Originall to himselfe . And in like sort would he keepe for the Ministers the Copie of that which the Doctors should send him . Wherevnto both parts submitting themselues , they disputed afterwards by writing as followeth . The Answere of the Ministers to the Obiections of the Doctors , giuen on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly , 1566. THe Ministers deny , that the consequence proposed by the Doctors , ( to wit : God cannot make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant . Therfore ●e is not omnipotent ) is necessary : For as much as the omnipotency of God ought not to be measured , but by the things only , which be agreeable to his will , and are not derogate , either to his nature , or to his wisdome , or to his truth , or to the order he established in the world . Vnto which , that directly repugneth , which the Doctors set forth : that one selfe same body , at one selfe-same instant , may be in diuers places . For it would follow , that a body should be a body , without being limitted : And by consequence , that it should be , and not be , altogither . For the measures ( as to be long , large , thicke , and to be bounded & limitted with certaine bounds ) are so essentiall to a body , that without that , it is no more a body . And so farre of is it , that the Ministers in so saying , do diminish the omnipotency of God : that contrariwise they establish the same ; and will not attribute to him any mutabilitie , and chaunge in his counsaile : nor any contradiction in his will , for feare to make him lye : which by the scripture is impossible to him . And where the Doctors alledge frō the Fathers , that they haue not denied the omnipotency of God , The Ministers haue heretofore shewed , that they haue : and in what case it may happen . Tertullian in his booke written against Praxeas , speaking of this matter , saith as followeth : Surely nothing is hard vnto God. But if without iudgemēt we wil vse this sentence , and interpret it according to our foolish fantasie , we may faine all things to be of God : and say , that he hath done them : because he can do them . Now must it not be beleeued , because he can do all things , that therfore he hath done , what he hath not done : but enquired whether he hath done it ? And finally concludeth , that the power of God is his wil : and his inhabilitie , likewise his vnwillingnesse . The Doctors then , to shew that he can do it , should declare that God hath willed to make a body , which at one selfe-same instant hath bin in diuers places . And a maruellous thing it is , that they impute to the Ministers , that they derogate from the omnipotency of God , when as they do except frō the same , what is contrary to his wil : seeing they themselues do confesse it , and except the same things . And that there is no other difference between thē & the Ministers , but that they say , that God maketh one body to be in diuers places , at one selfe instāt : because he can do it . And the Ministers say , that he doth it not , and cannot do it : because he wil not do it . For as much ( as is said according to Tertullian ) the power of god is his wil. Touching the reason that the Doctors do alledge in Phisosophie , to proue , that a bodie , for being a bodie , doth not therfore leaue to be in diuers places : The Ministers say , they suppose a falshood . To wit , that quantitie is accidentall , and not essentiall to a body . For that ( to wit , that a body is measured , bounded and circumscript ) is in such sort of it essence , that without that , it is no more a bodie . As S. Augustine him selfe , speaking of the glorified body of Iesus Christ , saith : That if space be taken away from a body , there is no more place where it might be : and by consequence , being no part , is no more at all . The reaso of Philosophie they propose , touching the first heauen ; as , that it is not in any place : The Ministers do denie it : for to speake according to the language of the scripture , it must be confessed that there is place e●en aboue the heauens . As Iesus Christ said vnto his Disciples ; I go to prepare a place for you . And in the same place ; In my Fathers house there are many mansions . And else where : Where I am ( taking the present time for the future ) there shal my seruants be In the which sentence must be obserued , that there be aduerbes of place . And S. Augustine writing to Dardanus , expresly saith : That it behoueth that the body of Iesus Christ be in some place in heauē , because it is a true body . Moreouer , in numbring of the errors sometimes cōdemned by the facultie of Paris , it is expresly said : That the heauen by them called Empyreum , is the place of Angels , of blessed spirits , and glorified humane bodies . Where the Doctors pretend , that of the doctrine ( which the Ministers maintaine , that a body cannot be without place , nor in many places at one instant ) may be inferred , that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God. The Ministers contrariwise say , that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie , and diminish the same , in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone : to wit , to be vncircumscript . As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost : where he proueth , that the holy Ghost is God , & not a creature , because he is incircumscript : and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript , and limited . As much thereof also say S. Basil , and Vigilius , and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke . Where they confesse , that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript , although they be not corporall . This reason is against themselues , and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies : to wit , that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place . For by an argument frō the lesse to the more : If the Angels which want dimension and measure , ( by their own confession ) in as much as they be creatures , be necessarily circumscript : by a more strong reason , the bodies of men , which be creatures , and measured , shall be so likewise . And where they adde , that the auncient Fathers haue not said , that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places : That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine , in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn , which is recited De consec : distinct ▪ 2. C. Prima quidē . Where , speaking of the body of Iesus Christ , he saith : namely ; It behooueth , that the body of our Lord , wherin he rose again , be in one place : teaching therby , that at one selfe-same time , it cannot be in diuers places . And touching the reason they adde , taken frō the Sacrament , to proue their assertiō : the Ministers say , that the fathers neuer vnderstood , nor said , that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen , and in the Sacrament , in one selfe same sort & maner : nor do they teach , that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament . And wheras in their resolutiō they pretend to proue , that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places , when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons , then they wil answere therevnto . That which they say of a body , it being dispoiled of it dimensions , ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding : is a very absurd thing . For did it happen , that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions , it should no more be a body , but an incorporeall substance : & of like nature as the Angels & spirits . And although God by his power can seperate the dimensiōs of a substance , without corrupting it : yet can it not be , that they be seperated frō a body , without the corruptiō of the same . Because the quantitie & dimensions are accidents of the substance , but not of the body : which cannot subsist without them , in as much as they be of it proper essence . Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection , that the waight in a body , is a thing essentiall . The Ministers do deny it . And the reason is , that were it of the essence of a bodie , and the same wanting , the bodie should cease to bee : Neuerthelesse we see , that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ , ( wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection ) doth not leaue to be & subsist , although it be now exempted from all waight . And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument : That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither , one body , at one instant , may be also in diuers places . The Ministers not graunting the antecedent ( vnder correction ) say , that the consequence is not good : and that the argument is very weake . Adding therto , that the Doctors haue nor prooued , and neuer can prooue by the scriptures , nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers , nor by any sufficient reason , that which they propose in their antecedent , or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true . Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place , alledge out of the scripture , that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were , the doores being shut : The Ministers do answere : that it is not written , that he entred through the closed doores , but only the doores being shut : which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand , expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn , ( where mention is made of that aboue said ) Cuum fores essent clausae . Then when the doores were shut , Iesus came , &c. Neuertheles the Ministers say , they verily belieue , and are assured , of that which the scripture doth clearly say , to wit , that the doores being shut , he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples . But they cannot certainly define , nor determine , which way he entered : whether it were through the walles , or doores of wood ; which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings , alledged by the Doctors . Howsoeuer it be , the Ministers do say : that in entering , he miraculously made way . And that a body ( be it the wood or wall ) did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering : or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell , which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment ; as before hath b●ne said . And that howsoeuer it was done , two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together . Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine , in his booke de agone Christiano , that Iesus Christ entered through the doores : The Ministers deny not , that he entred through the doores : but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together . But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores , that the doores at his entire gaue him place , as is said . For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition , that it was a vaine vision , it nought appertaineth to the present matter ; nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry , which was miraculous : as they euer confessed . And touching that which they adde afterwards , in the opinion held by the olde heretiques , of the bodie of Iesus Christ , that it was not a true bodie : because it did things aboue nature . The Ministers doo shewe them , that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour , the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them , had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth , and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ : that it doth things , not only aboue nature , but also contrary to nature : yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God. And there is no doubt , but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques , which haue denied the true humanitie of Iesus Christ : if they should confesse by the Doctors example , that the body of Iesus Christ ( cōtrary to the truth , nature , and essence of a body ) may be , at one self-same time in diuers places : or in one selfe same place with an other body . To that they alledge of Iustin Martir : The Ministers do answer , that the booke by them alledged , is falsly attributed to him . For it there maketh mention of Origen ( to wit in the the 82. question ) althogh that Origen was more then 100. yeares after him . And touching the opening of the Sepulchre , whereof there is mentiō made in the place by them produced , They answer , that the Euangelist reciteth clearly , that there was a great Earthquake , when Iesus Christ rose again ; and that the Angel did rowle away the stone , which closed the Sepulchre . Whervnto agreeth the saying of Leo , the first Bishop of Rome , writing to the Bishops of Palestine , where he saith : That Iesus Christ rose againe , the stone which couered the Sepulchre being rowled away . Touching the place alledged by the Doctors , out of the writings of S. Hillary ; one word there is , shall serue them for an answer . To wit , that this holy Doctor expresly saith : that Iesus Christ ( to whō all things are open ( as the Doctors haue expounded the said sentence ) or ( as the Ministers expound it , that he maketh way euery where , by his diuine power ) entred , the doores being shut . For thereby also he giueth to vnderstand , that to enter into the house where his Disciples were , he made himselfe way & opening . And by his writing can nought else be cōcluded , but that his entry was myraculous . Concerning that which the Doctors alledge of S. Ambrose , vpon S. Luke : No more can they inferre thereof , then S. Hillary hath said . And they cannot conclude , neither of the one nor the other , but that Iesus Christ entered within the house , by a diuine and miraculous power . For that which they alledge of S. Iohn Chrisostome , touching the virgin , that Iesus Christ came forth of her wombe , her virginitie & integritie no way thereby corrupted nor defiled : yea & that she did remain a virgin before & after her child birth : The Ministers do beleeue , confesse , and teach the same . And yeeld a reason thereof by the scripture : for as much as she neuer had knowne man. But if thence they will infer , that in the birth of Iesus Christ , Nula intercesserit apertio vteri : The wombe was not opened . The Ministers do say : that such a conclusiō ▪ should be against the expresse text of the scripture ; and of that said in S. Luke to that purpose : Omne masculinum ad aperiens vuluam , &c. Euery male that first openeth the wombe , &c. Ioyned therevnto , that many auncient authors haue written & approued it . as Origen vpō S. Luke : Tertullian de carne Christi : S. Ierom in his first Tome , Ad Eustochiū . Where in expresse termes he saith : that Iesus Christ came bloody forth of the virgins belly . S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke . Wherby it may appeare , that the virgin was truly a virgin , and truly a mother . To the authoritie which they bring of S. Ierome , The Ministers alledge no other thing for answere , then that which himselfe hath said . To wit : That when Iesus Christ came where his Disciples were , the creature obeyed his Creator . What the Doctors alledge of S. Cyril , serueth nothing to the confirmation of their purpose . Touching the heresie in Iouinian , iustly reproued by Saint Augustine : who to auoyd the error of the Manichees , fel into an other : namely , that the virgin in her child-birth remained not a virgin . The Ministers say : that it was not necessary that Iouinian ( to auoid the error of the Manichees ) should cal in doubt the virginitie of Mary : forasmuch as the foundiō of the same virginitie , is vpon this , that she was neuer knowne of man. Touching the conclusion , that the Doctors would draw from the authorities aboue said , and apply them to their purpose ( which was ) that one body may be in two places at one self-same instāt , or that two bodies may be in one self-same place togither : The Ministers say , that it is altogither impertinēt . And that neither by the places they alledged , nor any others that they can gather , can they any way inferre the same . Adding further , that it shall neuer be found in any good Author . By meanes wherof , they cōclude against the Doctors , that their foundatiō is nothing . And that they wil falsly authorise their error by the name & title of the auncient Fathers , for fault of good vnderstanding , and taking the terme [ piercing ] which some of the auncient Fathers haue vsed ; and signifieth not a a confusion , and mingling togither of diuers bodies , occupying one selfe same place : but only the yeelding , that the one made , to giue the other passage . As we see , and haue experience , that the aire giueth place to a man that walketh , and birds that flye . And the Ministers for conclusion say : that , that which they maintaine , and propose by their answere , doth not derogate , nor any way diminish the greatnes , glory , and power of God : but doth establish the same ; and much more aduance it , then such prodigious absurdities , ( as those are , which the Doctors set foorth , and will perswade : without any reason or probable meanes ) woulde doo . For they confesse , that all whatsoeuer happened , both in the entry of Iesus Christ into the house where his disciples were , and in his going out as wel of the virgins wombe , as of the Sepulchre , there was the myraculous & diuine power of God. But they denie , that thereby nothing happened , which was impossible , and contained any contradiction . What they alledge of Caluin & Beza are friuolous things : and proposed more to slaunder and contradict , then to search out and make manifest the truth . Where as they say that all antiquitie , with one consent do vnderstand by the terme Aphantos ap'aut●n ; That Iesus Christ made himselfe invisible to his Disciples , abiding in their presence . The Ministers for their answer , are content to alledge vnto them , one onely authoritie of S. Ambrose vpon S. Luke : who expounding these words , saith : That hee retired from them . And an other of Nicholas de Lyra , which saith vpon this place , that it was done by the agilitie of his glorious body , which can suddenly vanish away . To that they alledge of the piercing the heauens , when Iesus Christ ascended thither , the Ministers do answer , that it is very like they claue a sunder , and were opened ; a when at the Baptisme of our Lord Iesus Christ , the Doue descended vpon him : And when as also S. Stephen was stoned . Touching that which they reproue in the first answere of the Ministers , saying : that in the 12 ▪ chap. of the Acts , there is made no mention of the opening of the prison . The Ministers do admonish them to read diligently the text of the said place . And there they shal find , that whē they had passed the first & 2. watch , the vtter gate of the prisō ( which was of Irō ) did opē of it own accord , to make the Angel & Peter passage . Whereas the Doctors reply vpon the answer of the Ministers , to the argument of the Camell formerly proposed by them in their first answer : the Ministers say , that there is nothing in their said answer , against the word of God. But that they deceiue themselues : referring to the Camell , whereof hee had formerly made mention : that which ought to bee vnderstood , but of the sauing and conuersion of the rich man only . For our Lord Iesus Christ saying , that that which is impossible to men , is possible with God : nought else pretendeth , but to answere the question which the Disciples had propounded . To wit , who could be saued . Answering wherevnto , hee said : that it was indeed impossible to men : who of themselues are inclined to trust in their riches . But to God it was possible , which could pull backe or withdraw their hearts from that vaine confidence . As touching the argument which they will build vpon the presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper , ( whereof they wil inferre , that it is in diuers places ) the Ministers confesse the antecedent , & denie the consequence . For there is no doubt , but by faith our Lord Iesus Christ is spiritually present to all the faithfull in the Supper . Whence neuerthelesse must not be inferred , that he is there locally , definitiuely , no● corporally . And wheras they say , that it is not imaginable , the Ministers do avow the same , in regard of these which are not taught and enlightned by the spirit of God , and haue no other imagination , then that which their natural facultie doth furnish them withall . But they that beeing illuminate by the grace of God , haue a true and liuely faith in their hearts : it is no more impossible to represent vnto them Iesus Christ crucified in the Supper , then it was to the Galathians to represent and propose him vnto them , as present and visible , at the preaching of S. Paul : and to those likewise of whom Saint Ciprian maketh mention in his Sermon of the Supper : That in celebrating the same , they embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ , sucke his bloud , and fasten their tongues within his wounds . All which things are done by a liuely contemplation , and apprehension of faith : which is no other thing , then the ground of things hoped for , and an euidence of those things which are not seene : as S. Paul doth define it . Touching the truth of the thing conioyned with the signes and Sacraments : the Ministers confesse , that the outward signes are neuer without their effect toward the faithfull , who cannot be partakers of the bread and wine distributed in the Supper , but that they participate therwithall , of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for their sinnes , and of his bloud shead to ratifie the new couenant which God made with his people . But if the Doctors will inferre thereof a corporall presence in the Supper , the Ministers will denie it . And their reason is , because such a presence was not required among the auncient Fathers : who left not for all that , to eate one selfe-same spirituall foode , with all the faithfull at this day : as it shal be by the grace of God , more amply declared when the Lord of Neuers shall please to command conference of this matter . To that which the Doctors ( slaundering the Ministers ) do say , that they attribute more to themselues , and to humane power , then they do attribute to the power of God : when they say , that by faith they make present , the things which be absent ; seeing that God ( according to the doctrine of the Ministers ) cannot make one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant . The Ministers doo answere , that such antitheses be foolish , and vnfit for the purpose : and that there is much more great apparance that the Doctors do presume more of their power , and that of the other Priests of the Romane Church , then of the power of God : for God created not by his word , but the heauens , the earth , and the other creatures therein contained . And they in their consecration , doo attribute vnto themselues , the power to create their Creator : as is contained in their breuiarie , where the Priest saith : Qui creauit me , creatur mediante me . He that created me , is created my meanes of mee . And the Ministers much maruell , that the Doctors call the vertue of faith , a humane power , seeing the great and admirable effects thereof proposed vnto vs , in so many examples of the scripture ; chiefly in the eleuenth Chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrewes : where Saint Paul saith : That the Saints , by faith , haue subdued kingdomes , &c. All which things surmount not onely the vertue , but also the capacitie of humane vnderstanding . In that immediately following this article , there is but repetitions in the reply of the Doctors : and many vnprofitable and superfluous wordes : and little or nothing of that , should be necessary to the purpose . And as they haue answered them particularly to euery point which they repeate , they send them now backe to the former answeres : and pray them henceforth not to serue them twise with one messe . Concerning the Sacrament of the Aultar , as they call it : The Ministers neither receiue , nor any way approue , that their Masse ( which they pretend to bee a Sacrament ) is a Sacrament : and much lesse a sacrifice , by which remission of finnes may bee any way obtained . Yea they say , that both their Priest and pretended sacrifice , with all the things thereof depending , are blasphemies , and impieties : by which GOD is dishonoured , all the benefite of Iesus Christ buried , and nought esteemed : and the Church of Iesus Christ seduced and abused ; as by the pursuite of the Conference shall plainely appeare . And also , that the Ministers do no way corrupt either the sence , or the words which Iesus Christ vsed in the institution of his holy Supper . Thursday the 18. of Iuly , in the yeare aboue said . The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers , touching the Article of the Omnipotencie of God , on Satterday the 20. of Iuly . THe Doctors say , that this cosequence , God cannot by his omnipotencie , make one body to be in two places at one instant , he is not therefore omnipotent : is so good and strong , that the Ministers ( without wrapping , and more and more drowning themselues in execrable blasphemies , to the great griefe and horror of the Doctors ) can no way denie the same : And besides the two blasphemies maintained by the Ministers in their former answers , ( that is to say , that it was impossible for God to make one body to bee in two places : and that it was impossible for him to will the same ) in the first article of theyr last answere , they adde foure or fiue other blasphemies , out of which doo flow yet many others : besides the absurdities , falshoods , and impostures they vse to the said Doctors . And first they set forth , that God cannot do a thing which derogateth the order which he hath established in the world . Secondly , that it should bee to establish mutabilitie , and change in the Councell of God , did they confesse , that hee can do any thing against the said order which he hath put in the world . And thirdly , that were it so , there should bee contradiction in his will : whereby it would followe , that hee should be a lyar . And for the fourth blasphemie , that the power of God is his will : and that his weaknesse , is his vnwillingnesse . And for the fift , the Ministers pretend , that God hath willed to make a body , which at one selfe instant hath beene in many places , before they beleeue that God could doo it : otherwise they intend to inferre that hee had not power , and could not do it . So that the Ministers will nought acknowledge of the power of God , but so much thereof , as hee hath shewed by effect . And to that purpose they alledge Tertullian . All which blasphemies be drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article . Touching the first , which is , that God cannot make a thing which derogateth the order he hath established in the world : it is very apparant that it is blasphemie by the holy scripture : which in infinite places maketh mention of the workes of God aboue nature , which the Ministers call the order established in the world . And in proper termes teacheth that God can do infinite things , aboue the order by him established in the world . Namely , that Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salte : that a barren woman in her old age , hauing an old husband , brought forth a childe : that a withered Rodde budded : that an Asse spake : that the sonne stayed and went backe : and other more then innumerable examples , contained in the old Testament . And as touching the new , that a virgin brought forth a child . That a body walked vpō the water , & mounted into heauen . And generally all the myracles that Christ and his Apostles did aboue nature , which is contrary to the order established in the world . And of this blasphemie ensueth an other : that God since hee established his order in the world , hath not done , nor could , nor can do any myracle . Now to proue that the scripture teacheth clearely , that God can do contrary to the order established in the world , it is written in the 50. of Esay : Is my hand ( that is to say my power ) so shortned , that it cannot helpe ? or haue I no power to deliuer ? Behold at my rebuke I drie the sea : I make the flouds desart : Their fish rotteth for want of water , and dyeth for thirst . I cloathe the heauens with darknesse , & make a sacke their couering . And more expresly in the new Testament , where it is said by S. Iohn : That God can of stones raise vp children to Abraham . Which place , although it may be expounded allegorically : yet hath S. Iohn willed in the litterall sence to shewe , that it was possible to God. And the diue did know and confesse , that if Iesus Christ were the true sonne of God , he could chaunge the stones into bread . Which is neuerthelesse contrary to the order established in the world . And it must be noted , that there is no more impossibilitie that the bread should bee chaunged into flesh by the omnipotencie of God , then a stone into bread . And therefore they which denie this last , done by the power of God , do shewe to beleeue lesse the almightinesse of God , then the diuels . The confutation of the second blasphemie , dependeth on the confutation of the first . For although God , against the order established in the world , hath done many myracles ( as hath beene before recyted ) yet neuerthelesse there is no mutabilitie , nor chaunge in his counsaile . Touching the third blasphemie , which is , that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the world , there should be contradiction in his will , and he should therfore be a lyar . The Doctors obiect , that it would follow , that the will of God should be such , neuer to will any thing contrary to the order established in the world . And that God should haue purposed and declared by his word , his will to be such . For otherwise can they not know what the will of God shuld be . And the Ministers do not , nor can they make it appeare by the word of God , the will of God to be such , that he will not do any thing against the order established in the world . And it behoueth the said Ministers to teach of such a wil of God , before they conclude that God made one body to be in two places ( or other thing ) against the order of nature established in the world , he should be a lyar . Touching the fourth blasphemie , which is , that the power of God is his will , and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnes , according to the sence which the Ministers giue it ( to wit , if God cannot , but that which he will ) it is an heresie of the heretikes called Monarchians , in the Primitiue Church . Against whom , Tertulliā wrote , in his booke Aduersus Praxeā , and afterwards renewed by Peter Abaillardus . And since cōtinued by one called Wickliffe : who measured the power of God according to his will. Which is against the expresse word of God , which often declareth many things possible to God , that notwithstanding he wil not do , as by that which is written in the 2. of Wisedome appeareth : where mention is made , that God could send vpon the children of Israel , many kinds of affliction , to chasten thē , but he would not do it , hauing disposed all things , by number , waight & measure . And that he could destroy those which had offended , but that he would not , vsing mercie towards thē . And in the Gospel , our Lord said to S. Peter , Thinkest thou that I could not now pray my Father , and he would send me more then 12. Legions of Angels ? And notwithstanding he would not pray for that purpose . And his Father would not send them , although he had power to do it to the person of his sonne . And Iesus Christ himself could haue letted his enemies frō taking away his life , but he would not . And the Father ( saith S. Paul ) by his power could haue saued him frō corporall death . But neuerthelesse hee would not do the one , nor the other . Notwithstanding the Ministers might say , that it was preordained : yet the scripture saith expresly , that he could do it , although it had bin preordained . And as touching the authoritie of Tertullian , the Doctors are glad that the Ministers do produce it , because it maketh wholy for the truth , against the blasphemy of the Ministers , who haue omitted many words and sentences of the said Tertullian , which serued to the confutation of their error : as by the text here inserted , may be easily iudged . Nihil Deo difficile . Quis hoc nesciat ? Et impossibilia apud seculum , possibilia apud deū . Quis ignorat ? Et stulta mūdi elegit Deus , vt confundat sapientia . Ergo inquiūt haeretici ( Monarchiani scilicet ) difficile non fuit deo ipsū se & patrem & Filiū facere , aduersus traditam formā rebus humanis . Nam & Aerilē parere contra naturam , difficile deo non fuit , sicut nec virginē planè nichil Deo difficile . Sed sitā abrupte in praesumptiombus nostris hac sententia vtamur , quid vis de Deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit , quia facere potuerit . Non autem quia omnia potest facere , idioque credendū est illū fecisse etiā quod non fecerit : sed an fecerit requirendū . Potuit ( ita saluus sum ) Deus pennis hominē ad volandū instruxisse ( quod & miluis praestitit ) non tamen quia potuit , statim & fecit , potuit & praxeam & omnes pariter haeriticos statim extinxisse , non tamē quia potuit , extinxit . Oportebat enim miluos esse & haereticos : oportebat & patrem crucifigi . Hac ratione erit aliquid & deo dificile , id scilicet quod non fecerit : non quia potuerit , sed quia noluerit . Etenim posse , velle est , & non posse , nolle . Nothing is vnpossible to God : who knoweth not this ? And things vnpossible to mē , are possible to God : who is ignorant hereof ? And God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise . Therefore say the heretikes ( namely the Monarchians ) it was not hard for God himself to make both the Father and the sonne , against the prescribed forme in humane things . For the barren to bring foorth against nature : as also a Virgin , was nothing hard vnto God. Truly for God there is nothing too hard . But if in our presumption we so abruptly vse this sentence , wee may faigne euerie thing to be of God : as though hee will do , because he can doo . We must not beleeue , because hee can doo all things , that therefore hee hath done what he hath not done : but wee must seeke if hee haue done it . God could ( I am sure ) haue formed man to flye with wings , ( as he hath appointed the kytes ) he hath not forthwith done it because he could . He could presently cut off both Praxea , and likewise all heretikes together : yet hath he not therefore , because he could . For it behoued there should be both kytes and heretikes : It behoued also the Father to be crucified . By this reason shall something be too hard for God , namely that which he will not do : not because hee cannot , but because he will not . For to be able , is to will : and not to be able , is not to will. By which text it is easily seene , that according to Tertullian , God can do many things which he will not do : as he can make a man to flye , and doth it not : destroy heretikes ; neuerthelesse he destroyeth them not , because he will not , all that he may doo . And touching the conclusion which the Ministers draw from the said place of Tertullian , ( to wit ) that the power of God is his will : and his weakenesse is likewise his vnwillingnesse : The Ministers shewe , that they haue not well examined the vnderstanding of that place . For Tertullian of his owne iudgement saith it not ; ( so should he haue concluded against what hee had said before ) but hee inferreth the same against the Monarchian heretikes , which said : That what God could , he would do , and it was done . And for this reason Tertullian concludeth against them : that it behoued whatsoeuer God had not done , was to him hard and impossible . So that ( after these heretikes ) it was all one to be done , and to haue power to do it . And not to be done , as much as to be impossible to God. And hereof inferreth Tertullian , would follow , that the power , and the will , and the act of God , should be all one . And contrariwise , that a thing not to be done , and to be impossible for God to do it , should be all one : and so the power of God , and his wil , all one . And his weaknesse , & his vnwillingnesse be likewise all one . Which Tertullian concludeth for an absurd thing , proceeding from the opinion of the said Monarchians heretikes , and not of his owne iudgement , which was altogether contrarie . Wherein it appeareth , that the opinion of the Ministers , is like to that of the Monarchian heretikes , refuted by Tertullian . And that the Ministers maintaine such an opinion , it is euident by that which is contained in the fift blasphemie . The Doctors for conclusion against the said blasphemies , do shewe that God can do much more then he will do , and then he hath established in the order of the world . For otherwise , other blasphemies would yet ensue : namely , that the power of God should not be infinite , but limited . Also that all things of necessitie should bee done in this world , because God could not but maintaine the established order in the world . Which Caluin himselfe detesteth , saying : That God of his omnipotencie , changeth and altereth the order established ( as seemeth best vnto him ) and that otherwise to thinke , were to limit his power and prouidence . Where the Ministers say in their said former article , that the auncient Doctors of the Church haue denied the omnipotencie of God : it is a manifest falshood , and they wrong them greatly . For denie it they doo not , but interpret the scripture , which seemeth to denie it : and giue to vnderstand , how it ought to be taken . So that , so farre off is it , that by this scripture well vnderstood , exception may bee giuen against the omnipotencie of God ; that contrariwise the same is confirmed : as saith Saint Augustine in the fift booke , and tenth Chapter of the Citie of God. The power of God ( saith hee ) is nothing diminished , although it bee said , that hee cannot die , nor bee deceiued : for such things he cannot do : because , that could he do them , his power should thereby be lessened . And concludeth , that such things which be of infirmitie he cannot do , beccause he is almightie . The Ministers in the end of the first article , vse deceit towards the Doctors , in that they affirme theyr difference to be , because the Doctors maintaine , that a body is in many places , for as much as God can so cause it to bee : and that the Ministers on the other part hold , that it is not in the power of God to do it , because hee will not doo it . The Doctors doo shewe , that they ( for their part ) neuer so concluded for truth , that one true body was in two places , because God could so cause it : but that the question was onely to knowe , whether God could doo it , to come afterwards by order , to proue by scripture that hee would doo it . And they haue alreadie heretofore cyted the scripture of the Supper and Ascention . And further added the doctrine of Caluin touching the said Supper : to shewe , that the will of God is , to make one body to be in two places , ( as indeed it is ) according to the expresse word of God. Moreouer , to this selfe-same end , the Doctors haue produced the scriptures of the closed doores : of the birth of our Lord : and of the resurrection through the stone : which are made like : and by the same reason , to that of a body in many places . The Ministers on the contrary part , to denie the wil of God , and depraue the holy scriptures ( which declareth the will of God to be such , that one body be in two places ) alledge nothing more instantly , then the impossibilitie for God to doo this . Now , to the end that all the world may vnderstand the present difference , betweene the Doctors and Ministers , the Doctors declare , that no other difference there hath beene hitherto touching this article , then to know whether it be in the power of God , to make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant or no. And for the second article , the Doctors say , that the Ministers answere not to the purpose : for the obiection was not , whether quantitie were an accident of a Mathematicall body , Aut de praedicamento quantitatis , as speaketh the Philosophers ) but to know whether it were of the essence and of necessitie to the quantitie of a body , to be circumscript , and in one piace inclosed . And as touching S. Augustine , by the Ministers alledged , he speaketh expresly according to the proprieties of the diuine and humane natures . And wel saith , that the diuine , is in all places , but not the humane : because of it naturall proprietie , it requireth a place certaine . And of this make the Doctors no doubt , according to the said naturall proprietie . But the question is , to wit , whether aboue nature , by the omnipotencie of God , he cannot cause one body to be without place , proportionable to it greatnesse , Which S. Augustine speaking , de Ianuis clausis : not hauing regard to the nature of things , but to the power of God , plainly confesseth . And the Doctors would desire the Ministers to alledge this Epistle of S. Augustine , against the doctrine of Caluin , and his Ministers , for the descent of the soule of Iesus Christ into hell , as often as they alledge the passage of the place of bodies , against the power of God , touching the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament . In the 3. article the Ministers are deceiued . For after the sayings of the Philosophers , and according to the naturall reason of a body ( which the Ministers do follow ) Locus est superficies Corporis continentis . Place is the ouermost part of a containing body . Wherfore it should behoue , that were the high and last heauen circumscript of place , there should be a body aboue the high and first heauen , A quo primum Caelum contineretur . Et sic in infinitum . Of which the first heauen should be cōtained . And so infinit . And moreouer the Ministers answer not to the other obiectiōs made thē vpō this article . And as touching the passages of scripture , which they alledge to proue that there are toomthes & places aboue all the heauens , they captiously conclude , and 〈◊〉 with doubtfulnesse of the name of place . For in all their 〈◊〉 of the dimensions of bodies ( which they haue said 〈◊〉 to require roomth and place equall and 〈…〉 their bignesse ) it is meete they vnderstand 〈…〉 roomthes and places , euen as the dimensions and of 〈◊〉 do require the same . And now , when they speake of place● 〈…〉 meet they vnderstand thē , others then 〈…〉 be not such roomthes & places , as these wherein 〈…〉 now are : but incomprehensible and vnimaginable places , where bodies and spirits indifferently are , without distinction for their greatnesse , of certaine spaces and places corporall . And in such places , the Ministers rule is false , by which they maintaine , that a body cannot be in one place , if it bee not as spacious , as the greatnesse of the body . Moreouer the Doctors say , that it is the manner of heretikes , to interpret the scriptures spiritually , when they are litterally to bee taken : and contrariwise , to expound according to the letter , that which spiritually and by figure ought to bee vnderstood . As the Ministers doo expound the house of Cod in the other world , litterally and corporally , wherein there are spaces , and corporall habitations , diuers and seperate one from an other : albeit it ought to bee spiritually vnderstood , for the diuersitie of degrees of blessednesse . The said Doctors cannot omit , a manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this selfe-same article : wherein they pre●end , that the bodies and soules of the blessed , are lodged aboue all the heauens . And yet they place the body of Iesus Christ within the heauen . And touching the alledged article , condemned by the facultie of diuinitie at Paris : the Doctors answere , that the Ministers do ordinarily alledge authorities , pared , or euilly applied : For the Article saith , that the Bishop of Paris , hauing called the Facultie , condemned all those , which would place two distinct heauens : one for the Angels , the other for the soules of men . Which nothing pertaineth to the present question . The Ministers in the fourth article do charge the Doctors , who neuer attribute the proprietie of God to any creature : but haue often heretofore said , that to bee euerie where , and incircumscript , was not naturall to any creatures , but to God alone . And the Authors by the Ministers alledged ( as Saint Basil , Didimus , and Vigilius , speake no otherwise thē of the proprietie of nature , to be euery where , or not . And yet they neuer denie , but it is in Gods power to cause one creature or body , aboue it nature , to be in two , or many places : but ( as aforesaid ) when they come to the power of God , many of the olde authors confesse , that it is possible with God , and that hee hath done the same in the Sacrament : the answere of the Ministers is therefore to no purpose . For the whole contention is of the power of God , and not of naturall proprieties . The Ministers in the fift article haue not well conceiued the reason of the Doctors : who alledge , that the Angels are naturally circumscript , as well as bodies : and hereby would inferre , that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the sole and essentiall cause of the dimensions of a body : as by all their said reasons , the Ministers pretend . Albeit the Doctors are not ignorant that to put difference betweene the corporall and spirituall creatures , they haue accustomed to distinguish in schooles , that the Angels Sunt diffinitiue in loco , and the bodies Circumscriptiue . In the sixt article to satisfie the Doctors , who made instance they should produce one onely place of the auncient Fathers : where it was said , that it is not in Gods power , to make one body to be in two places . The Ministers for all the testimonies they could haue , do falsly alledge a place of S. Augustine , where it is said ( as it is cyted in Gratian De consecra : distinct . 2. C. prima quidem ) that the said Saint Augustine hath written , that it behoued the body of Iesus to be in one place : wherevnto say the Doctors , that it is not so couched in the proper text of S. Augustine , which is in the 30. tract vpon Saint Iohn . For such is the tenour in all the auncient copies of S. Augustine : Corpus domini , in quo resurrexit , vno loco esse potest , veritas eius vbique diffusa est . The body of the Lord , in which he rose againe , may be in one place , his truth is shead into euerie place . Where is not this word [ Oportet ] as the Ministers cyte it , hauing taken the same out of Gratian. And that men may knowe there is no great trust to be giuen to the fragments of Gratian , without recourse to the copies of Saint Augustine , in the tytle of Canon , these words are there extracted out of the exposition of S. Augustine , vpon the 54 Psalme . From whence hee draweth the onely beginning of his Canon : and yet doth he not truly cyte it . The ●est of the said Canon , is taken from diuers passages of S. Augustine . And although there should bee Oportat . S. Augustine speaketh after his wonted manner , according to the proprietie of a body , opposing the diuinitie to the humanitie : without touching the operation of Gods omnipotencie . Whereof when he maketh mention , and that he speaketh of the Sacrament , he plainly affirmeth , the body of Iesus Christ to be in diuers places ; by the omnipotencie of God. As the Doctors hope in their resolution to deduce as well out of him , as other auncients also . The 8. artide containeth many errors , against Philosophie and truth . First , because the Ministers make no distinction betweene the body they cab Mathematicall ( to wit , hauing dimension of breadth , length , and height ) and the Phisicall or naturall body : to wit , which is composed of a substantiall forme and matter : by the vnion whereof , it is made a naturall & substantiall body . Secondly , although the body should bee without quantitie , yet should it differ from our soules seperated , which bee not materiall substances : and consequently should it also differ from the Angells and spirits . Thirdly , the Ministers by the conclusion of this article , doo manifestly declare , that they acknowledge not any substantiall body . And where they say , that although God might seperate the dimensiōs from a substance , without corrupting the same , that such substance should remaine spiritually , as the Angels , they are deceiued . For such substance should not remaine immateriall , as are our soules , and the Angels which be not capable of dimensions : and therefore should it yet bee different from Angels and our soules . Concerning the ninth article , the Ministers answere nothing to the purpose . For the Doctors say not , that the massinesse and waight bee essentiall in a body , but to presse downeward , is essentiall to the sadnesse and waight of a body . And by their obiection they demaunded to knowe , whether an earthly and massy body , abiding in it substance and natural waight , might not by the omnipotencie of God , be hanged in the ayre , without falling downward , albeit it were against it nature and inclination , Moreouer , for answere to many articles which concerne the act of two bodies in one place , and the passages of holy scripture , and auncient Authors produced by the Doctors , ( to proue that it was in Gods power to cause two bodies to bee in one onely place : and contrariwise , that by the same reason it was in the same power , to cause one body to bee in two places ) . First the Doctors say , that the Ministers doo wrong , to denie this consequence . Two bodies by the power of God , may be in one selfe-same place . Then on the contrarie part , one body may be in two places , by the selfe-same power . For as great repugnancie there is to Gods established order , in the one , as in the other : and as great contradiction in nature , founded vppon one selfe-same cause and reason : to wit , in the limitation , and circumscription of a body . Which as it is naturall to be in place , so is it naturall for it , to bee in place proportioned and answerable to it measures . And if for the number of diuers places where a body should bee , one may inferre , that it should no more bee a body ( as implying contradiction ) by the same reason , according to one onely place , where many bodies should bee , may also bee inferred , that they should no more be many bodies : or that many bodies should be one . Which would imply the contradiction as the former . And where the Ministers denie the antecedent , which is , that two bodies may bee in one place , the Doctors to proue it , haue produced the passages of scripture , of the closed doores : the birth of the body of our Lord of the Virgin : the going out of the Sepulchre : the passage of a Camell through the eye of a needle : and the piercing of the heauens made by Christ in his ascention . And for as much as the Ministers denie these actes , contained expresly in holy scripture , and expounded by the auncient Christians , and depraue the same at their pleasure . The Doctors estsoones vpō the texts of scripture do say as followeth . First as touching the closed doores , Saint Iohn saith : That Iesus came , meaning into the place where his Disciples were . But hee came not there without entering thereinto . For to bee found in the middest of them without entring , there should bee a much greater myracle , then that hee entred there simply . Secondly it is said , Cum fores essent clausa , or Ianuis clausis . To wit , that hee there entered , the doores beeing shut . And there is no apparance that the scripture maketh mention of doores , rather then an other place , were it not to shewe the place by which hee entred . Thirdly , it is added not in vaine , that the doores were shut , without saying that any opening was myraculously made . For it is alwaies said , Quod venit Ianuis clausis . That hee came the doores beeing shut . And were it true , that the doores had bin opened by diuine power , this should be false , that our Lord entred , Ianuis clausis , for hee should haue entered Ianuis apertis , howsoeuer they had bene opened . And to shewe , that the common consent of all the Auncientes haue bene , that Iesus entered therein by the closed doores , the Doctors set forth foure foundations , drawne from the auncient Fathers . The first is , that all expresly confesse the myracle of such an entrie to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ . The second is , that such myracle was there wrought by the power of God , aboue the nature of a body . The third is , that the Fathers especially iudge , that herein consisteth the myracle , that the body pas●ed through the closed doores : and that so it was with an other body . And for the fourth ground , they adde , that the Apostles by reason of such entring , supposed that the body of Iesus Christ was not a true body , but a spirit , or vaine vision : which the Ministers lightly passe ouer , without any answere . Now so it is , that if by the power of God ( as the Ministers will haue it ) an opening was made of the doores , or any other part of the house , to giue entrie to the bodie of Iesus Christ : then the myracle did not consist in the said body , but in the doores , or other part of the house , which was open : and nothing had beene there against the nature of the bodie of our Lorde : for it is not repugnant to any bodie whatsoeuer , to enter by an opening made by myracle , or otherwise . Bee it , that Iustine was not Author of the questions against the Gentiles ; yet can they not deny , but they are of some auncient Christian , of the Primitiue Church . And the Doctors haue attributed them to him , in whose name they are intituled . And so much there is , that the said Iustine in the place alledged , layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ : which ( being grosse and thick ) entered through the closed doores by the power of God ; contrary to the nature of a bodie . And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision : by reason of the entrie made without opening , as spirites doo wontedly enter . Let the text be seene . S. Hillary saith not only , that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were , by the omnipotencie of God , ( as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie ) but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers , hee repulseth & mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties , which vpon this act they imagined . Nothing ( saith he ) gaue place , to open to such a bodie , and that it lost nothing of it substance : nor by it entry was ought diminished . He addeth : That the doores and clefts were shut , and fast barred . And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle , that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ , contrary to nature , by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house , close and couert , without any opening : wherein hee plainly sheweth , that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ . And for this let the text be viewed , which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers . S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith : That S. Thomas was abashed , seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter , Per in via septa corporibus . Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu . Through closures impassable for bodies : And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie . S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist , and in his Cōmentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn , expresly saith : Qui intrauit per ostia clausa , non erat phantasma , non erat spiritus , vere corpus erat . Quid enim dicit ? Respicite & videte : quia spiritus carnem & ossa non habet , quae me habere videtis . Habebat carnes , habebat & ossa , & clausa erant omnia . Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa & caro ? Clausa sunt omnia & intrat , quē intrantem non vidimus . Nescis quomodo factum sit , & das hoc potentiae Dei. He that entred through the closed doores , was not a vain vision , was not a spirit , it was truly a bodie . For what saith he ? Behold and see : For a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me haue . Hee had flesh , hee had also bones , and all thinges were shut . How entered bones and flesh , the doores being shut ? All thinges are shut , and hee entereth whome wee see not entering . How it is done thou knowest not , and attributeth this to the power of God. Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie , as doth also S. Ambrose , acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ ; in that hee passed through the shut doores , by the omnipotencie of God. S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth : that the body pierced the closed doores , euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls , to see through without opening . S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie , which the Bishop of Ierusalem ( infected with the heresie of Origen ) held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection : because contrary to the nature of a bodie , he had passed through the closed doores : wherein Saint Ierome ( as the other Auncients ) declareth : that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie : because it proceeded from a supernaturall power . And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much : where he vseth these words : Iesus entered through the closed doores . Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur . Which thing , the nature of humane bodies admitteth not . So that with others , he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ . There is no doubt , but S. Augustine in three places ( at the least ) maketh expresse mention , that this body passed through the shut doores : and that this was done by the power of God , aboue the nature of bodies : and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ : besides the passages De agone Christiano , and of the Epistle Ad volusianum , alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei , he saith so also . Epiphanius in the first booke , vpon the 20. Heresie , and in the 2. booke , vpon the 64. Heresie , against the Origenists , declareth that it is but a spirituall body : to wit , which looseth nothing of it corporall substance : but changeth & getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections , and meete for spirites : as to passe through the walles without opening . And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ , which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection . And euen so iudgeth ( as others do ) the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ : and that because he pierced the shut doores , as a spirit , albeit hee were a true body . Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also ( as the others ) this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord ; which by the like myracle , walked vpon the waters , against the nature of a body , by the power of God ; and reproueth all them , which ought suspected by this deed , that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall . By all these authorities , the foure grounds proposed , are true . And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians , to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations , is ouer-great impudencie . For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza , the Ministers to that ende produce two others : to wit , that the Angell opened the doore : as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it , or else had need of opening . And the other is , that the opening was made which way he pleased . And by such diuersities , the Ministers sufficiently declare , that they know not where to rest . And ( which is worse ) they could not alledge one only auncient Father , for author of their fictions , or that is contrary to all the others , from the Primitiue Church . And to alledge , that the Iron gate ( in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord , serueth nothing to the purpose : For the Doctors neuer denied the same : but haue well saide , that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison : and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened , the Euangelist had as easily said it , as he said they were shut ; and as S. Luke saith , that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe . There is no doubt , but peruerse spirits , which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world , were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores , with other Christians . And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith , to support their heresies ( as of all the other myracles hapned to the body of our Lorde aboue nature ) the Fathers neuerthelesse haue not denied this , nor others semblable acts : for feare to giue heretikes occasion of error . But haue declared and distinguished what was of the nature of the said bodie , and what came vnto it by the omnipotencie of God. And the Christians ( for heresies ) neuer abandoned the truth : albeit heretikes thereby haue sometimes abused the same . Sith then the bodie of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without opening ; sure it is , that two bodies haue bene , and may be in one selfe same place . And hereby haue the Doctors well proued their proposition : which without scripture , or testimony of any Father , the Ministers deny . Concerning the Birth of Iesus Christ without fraction of the virgin , the Doctors say , that many of the Auncients produced for the passage of the doores , haue also held , that myracle to haue bene wrought in the bodie of our Lord , and not in the bodie of the virgin , but in as much as she remained in her purenesse , without fracture or opening . And for their reason , the Fathers haue alledged the scripture : Exce virgo concipiet & pariet . Behold a virgin shall conceaue and bring forth . And out of Ezechiel : Porta haec clausa erit . This gate shall be shut . As reciceth S. Ambrose in the 80. Epistle , where a Councell is conteined , wherein S. Ambrose was present : which determined against Iouinian and other heretikes , that the virginitie and puritie remained in her child ▪ birth , to the mother of God. Which thing S. Augustine in the place alledged by the Doctors in the first booke , and 2. Chapter against Iulian , repeateth . And where the Ministers say , that the virgin had not lost her virginitie , when our Lorde was borne as other men : in that they are condemned of heresie by the Fathers : which declare Iouinian to derogate her virginitie , for the like opinion as the Ministers do hold . Of whom the Doctors would willingly demaund , what myracle they acknowledge in the birth of our Lord , touching his bodie , and the virginitie of his mother , if he departed from her , as other childrē from their mothers , as the Ministers do write . And as touching that which they alledge of Tertullian , Origen , S. Ambrose , and S. Ierome ; the Doctors say : that Tertullian & Origen held such an heresie , and many others , which were reproued before Iouinian . And for this , were condemned with him and his consorts . And for S. Ambrose , it is euident , that he beleeued the contrary ; as well by the Councell where he was present : as by that which he wrote in the booke De Institutione Virginis . And therefore , where hee saith : that Christus vuluam aperuerit , it must be interpreted , not that it was by rupture or fraction , but by effect of generation , and production of his true bodie , out of the wombe of the virgin , by myracle and supernaturall power . So that , as the conception was myraculous , so was his birth : Et aperire vuluam , is a phrase and maner of speaking in the scripture , to call and nominate the first borne : howsoeuer he had power to be borne . And as touching S. Ierome , he speaketh nothing of the fracture , but only that the bodie islued out bloodie , as it was in the wombe of his mother : and to bee bloodie , there is no necessitie of fracture of the mother . The Doctors for conclusion of this article , would willingly demaund of the Ministers , whether they hold for an article of faith , the virginitie of the mother after the child-birth : & whether they could proue the same by the expresse and vnreproueable word of God written . For as much as Beza when hee pleaseth , maketh doubt of these two points : and that the pretended reformed religion among the articles of faith , of his diuers imprinted confessions , recyteth sometimes the virginitie of the mother of God after her child-birth , and sometimes omitteth the same . And in some confessions inserteth not that Iesus was borne of the Virgin Marie , but onely that hee issued of the seede of Danid . The Doctors employ for the resurrection , and issuing out of the body of Iesus Christ through the stone of the Sepulchre , the most part of the authorities alledged by them vpon the closed doores : as the whole lecture of the foresaid authorities , with Gregorie Nazianzene , in his tragedie of the passion of our Lord , will witnesse : which conioyneth ( as do many other Auncients ) these three myracles happened into the body of our Sauiour aboue nature : namely the birth without fracture of the Virgin : the resurrection through the stone : and the entrance by the closed doores . The Doctors adde , that Caluin and Beza make conscience to say as doo the Ministers , that our Lord arose not , the Sepulchre beeing shut and closed : and rather had the said Caluin and Beza fall into friuolous abfurdities , and ridicclous expositions here afore alledged , then yeeld to the opinion of the Ministers . Because there is more appearance in the text of the Gospell , that Iesus Christ was risen before the stone was rowled away by the Angell : as therein agree the most part of auncient Christians . And by this meane also is there occasion giuen , more easily to beleeue the resurrection of our Sauiour , then if the stone had beene taken away before the resurrection . For one might more easily say , that the body had bene transported and not risen againe . And the text saith not , that the Angell rowled away the stone before the resurrection , or when Iesus arose , but rather afterwards : as there is great apparance in the scripture , in reason , and all antiquitie . Pope Leo is euilly alledged by the Ministers , which well knowe to conceale what is written in the Epistle by them cyted , touching the closed doores . And they euilly alledge that of the resurrection . For it is not said , that our Lord arose after the stone was rowled from the Sepulchre . But well is it said against the Fantasmatiques , that the substance put vpon the Crosse , and that which rested in the Sepulchre , and that which arose the third day ( the stone of the graue beeing rowled away ) is the true flesh of Iesus Christ . By which words , Pope Leo meaneth not to say , that our Lord was not risen , before the stone was remoued : but onely sheweth , that the body of Iesus Christ risen againe ; was a true , and not a phantastike body : of whose resurrection it appeared by the opening of the graue . And such is the common interpretation of old Authors touching the remouing of the stone . For conclusion of all these auncient testimonies , the Doctors are abashed that the Ministers ( seeing them so manifest , and themselues conuinced , that God cannot only cause two bodies to bee in one selfe-same place , but that hee hath also done the same ) dare slaunderouslye depraue the vnderstanding of them , which euerie man of good and sound iudgement , can by the onely reading finde out . Notwithstanding the Ministers say , that the reasons taken from such and so euident testimonies , be impertinent . So that wiah like libertie ( common to heretikes ) they feare not , without any text of scripture , or any place of auncient Fathers , to interpret , that two bodies to pierce one an other , is no other thing , then one body to giue place to the other . Of which false and licencious interpretation , the common phrase of speech among Philosophers themselues doth condemne them . And the feat example brought of them which walke through the aire beating vpon them , and of Birdes when they flye , is ouer subtill . And whereas they boast in the said article , that in denying that two bodies may be in one place by the omnipotencie of God , or one bodie in two places , they aduance and magnifie the power of God. As true is that , as when in all their other errors , by which they resist the truth of God , and blaspheme him , they euer boast to aduance the glorie of God. And the Ministers must paint and couer their filthinesse and deformitie , with some colour of speech , to blinde the simple and ignorant . Good reason also haue the Ministers not to excuse the interpretations of Caluin and Beza , as too too friuolous and ridiculous : and preferre in the meane time their owne interpretation , though more ridiculous then those of their Maisters : wherein appeareth the concorde betweene the Maisters and Disciples ; all vsing one foundation of their religion : which is , to trust alwayes to their owne particular and priuate interpretation , and inspiration : and to preferre the same to all others . Where the Ministers say , that the bodie of our Lord was not inuisible to the Disciples , of whō mention is made in the 24. of Luke : but that his bodie only being nimble , he suddainly withdrew himselfe : the Doctors obiect , that the suddaine departing ( whereof speaketh S. Ambrose , and Lyra , ) maketh not , but that the bodie was inuisible : as signifieth the Greeke word Aphantos : which signifieth , not a suddaine departure , but an incapacitie to be seene and knowne . And so the text of the scripture is plainly for the Doctors . Ioyned neuerthelesse , that when the olde and late Diuines wil giue examples that Iesus was made inuisible , they ordinarily alledge this passage . The Ministers also who boast , that they rest vpon nothing , but the pure word of God , ( for exposition of scripture ) bring their dreames , aboue their owne perswasion ; as touching the closed doores appeareth . And with like libertie vse they to expound the text of Saint Paul , which expresly maintaineth , that our Lord pierced the heauens . And it is likely ( say they ) that the heauens claue a sunder , and were opened . And if one demaund , whence they learned such an interpretation , they answere , from the word of God , founded vpon their inward inspiration : by which , they appropriate that which is written in Saint Mathew ; that heauens were opened when the Doue descended vpon our Lord. As though all the heauens were clest asunder , and the holy Ghost had not power to descend without the opening of them : not nothing that the scripture in many places taketh heauen for the ayre . Concerning that they alledge of S. Stephen , who when he was stoned , sawe the heauens open , more meete it were for the Ministers , to interpret such visions , to bee made in spirit , as there is great likelyhood : else should it behoue to confesse two myracles : the one in the diuision of the heauens : the other in this , that the sight of S. Stephen , not onely pierced vnto , but also aboue the heauens : where the Ministers confesse , the body of Iesus Christ to bee at the right hand of the Father , whom Saint Stephen sawe , which is against the order of God established in the wold : whereby it is necessarie that there be a certaine distance betweene the eye seeing , and the thing which is seene . And no lesse hard is it , that such thing bee done , then that two bodies should pierce one an other . Nor must they forget that the scriptures oftentimes in spirituall apparitions and visions , vseth this phrase of speech , that the heauens were opened : and yet in such case was there but a spirituall vision , and likewise but a spirituall opening . And euen as the Ministers will take the rigour of the word [ the opening of the heauens ] : so should they not thinke it straunge if the Doctors with like rigour , take [ the piercing of the heauens ] especially in the article of the Ascention : where the question is of the bodie of Iesus Christ , which had alreadie pierced more impenitrable bodies then the heauens . And the Doctors to auoyd tediousnesse , referre themselues to more ample debating this point [ of the piercing of the heauen ] hereafter . As touching the 28. article , where the Ministers against expresse scripture , do obstinately defend , that God cannot by his power , make a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle : the Doctors cannot sufficiently ma●uel , either at the blindnesse of the Ministers , which seeme to see nothing at noone-day : or at their obstinacie and boldnesse . And that the Ministers vnderstand not their fault , the Doctors cannot thinke , but that impugning the truth , well knowne to themselues , they sinne against their owne conscience . And God suffereth that ( it seemeth ) to happen vnto them , in this so manifest a place and text of the scripture : to the end , that by this article , one may perceiue how much more bold they are , to giue false sences , to scriptures more obscure then this , and to the sayings of the auncient Christians which make against them . Now that the great wrong may be vnderstood , which the Ministers doo , in denying that our Lord can cause a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle : the Doctors do obiect , that it should be impossible with God to saue a rich man : vsing such argument , taken from the text of the Gospell . More impossible or hard is it for God to saue a rich man , then to make a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle . But God by his omnipotencie cannot make ( after the Ministers ) a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle . Therefore God by his omnipotencie cannot cause a rich man to be saued , and enter into the kingdome of heauen . The Maior is of the scripture : The Minor is confessed by the Ministers : and the consequence is necessarie . And according to all Philosophie , hee that cannot doo a more easie thing , cannot doo a thing more hard . So also without contradiction haue the Auncients expounded the present scripture : as doth Origen in the Homily vpon this place , saying : that it is possible for a Camell to enter through the eye of a needle : yet not possible with men , but with God. And the manner how such thing may bee done , is knowne of God , and his sonne Iesus Christ , and of him to whom hee shall reueale it . Semblably Saint Augustine in the first and fift Chapter of his booke of the spirite and letter , thus speaketh to Marcellinus , whom hee wrote vnto : It seemeth to thee absurd , when I say vnto thee , that a man may bee without sinne : albeit that ( Christ excepted ) such a one is not founde . Should it seeme absurd vnto thee , that a thing may bee done , whereof no example can bee shewed ? Seeing thou doubtest not ( as I thinke ) but it neuer happened that a Camell passed through the eye of a needle . And yet is it saide , that with God such thing is possible . By the Ministers answere vnto the 29. article , may easily bee seene , that they deceiue and abuse their Disciples , making them beleeue by faire words and writings , that they really receiue in the Supper , the true body of Iesus Christ , the same which issued from the belly of the Virgin , and was fastned vpon the Crosse , for the restauration of mankind . And wil make them to vnderstand , that they who place not with the bread and wine in the Sacrament , ( as they call it ) of the Supper , but some spirituall effect onely ( as are the redemption , righteousnesse , sanctification , life eternall , and other gifts , and benefites , which Iesus Christ bringeth to his elect ) diminish the excellencie and dignitie of the same Sacrament , and that they be Zuinglians . But that besides such spirituall effects , one must beleeue that hee receiueth truly the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper . They hold neuerthelesse an other opinion . For when they are pressed with arguments , and cannot defend such an imaginarie and phantastike presence , they confesse by their writings , they are become Zuinglians , and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper : which is as much to say , as besides the bread and wine , they receiue a certaine spirituall effect , and not really the body , as the Ministers do in the present answere : which thing they make manifest , by that they cyte of the Apostle S. Paul : by which citation may bee gathered , what is their opinion concerning the Supper : to wit , that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not really , but by spirituall effect onely in the hearts of the faithfull . For the Galathians by the hearing of S. Pauls preaching , receiued not really the body of Christ crucified , but had onely an imagination of the Crosse and passion of Iesus Christ , and receiued onely the fruite of their faith : that is to say , by this meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God : also the allegation which the Ministers make of S. Ciprian , tendeth to this ende , to shewe that in the Supper are receiued some spirituall effects onely : which neuerthelesse by these words , to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ , to sucke his bloud , &c. be allegorically signified . Wherein they denie ( against the intent of S. Ciprian in the Sermon of the Supper ) the reall prefence of the body of Iesus Christ . The Doctors confesse that the argument they haue made , is addressed to Caluinists , and not to Zuinglians . And they supposed that the Ministers would not otherwise haue thought of this Sacrament , then Caluin , Beza , and the other Ministers , renowmed to be Ministers of the Caluinist Church , which they call reformed . An other maner of speech vsed they , which exhibited the confession touching that Sacrament , to the Bishops at Poissy , who freely confessed the body of Iesus Christ to bee really present in that Sacrament : which the Ministers in conference with the Doctors , do now denie . And hereby the Ministers in the iudgement of the Doctors , of Caluenists , become Almanists . Wherewithall , they that maintaine the doctrine of the Church , which they call reformed , will not be greatly pleased : seeing their principall pillars ( for not being able to answere an argument obiected by the Doctors ) do leaue them in the businesse : considering that in the answer they say themselues to be so much enlightned with the holy spirit , which maketh them vnderstand & know all things . Concerninig the article following , they doo openly declare what their present opinion is , touching the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament , by saying that the faithfull receiue no more in this time of the Gospell , then did the Fathers before , and vnder the lawe : But certaine it is , that the Fathers receiued not really the body of Iesus Christ , which as then was not made . Therefore the conclusion must follow , that vnder the Gospell the body of Iesus Christ is not really receiued in the Sacrament , which the Ministers call the Sacrament of the Supper . To the 31. article they answere not : as also they neuer could answere the same : and they must necessarily confesse , that in the power of their faith , they do that which implyeth contradiction . For they maintaine one thing to be present , and not present , at one selfe-same time and place . And their spirituall ( or rather phantasticke ) presence , maketh nothing to the purpose . For ( according to their doctrine ) the body cannot be present but with it measures , locally , difinitiuely , and corporally : otherwise the body should be wholly abrogate and corrupted . And the maner of it beeing there spiritually , would not make , that the body is not there : or otherwise they falsly say it is present in the Supper , and abuse the world . Wherefore it is necessarie , if the body be there ( yea spiritually ) and their doctrine of the nature of a body be true , that the body of Iesus Christ be corporally , difinitiuely , and locally in the Supper . Moreouer , for as much as it is absent according to their confession : it followeth , that it is not there present . And to conclude , the Ministers say , that it is there , and not there . And for the full solution , ( without entering into the principall of the Argument ) they suppose to escape , by obiecting to the Doctors , some words of the breuiarie , which the Doctors haue not yet seene . The Ministers ( they thinke ) haue found them in some breuiarie of Monkes , and remember when they were in the Couent , that they were so accustomed to sing and say . But although such things were found in the breuiaries , vsed in the Romane Church , such maner of speech might be defended , in the sence which the Fathers haue giuen , whē they said , that the Apostles Conficiūt corpus Christi : do make the body of Christ , as the scripture it selfe saith : that they baptise , forgiue sinnes , and saue those whom they conuerted : which is meant , as the Ministers of God. Who of his owne authoritie , and as Maister , baptiseth , forgiueth sinnes , and iustifieth the faithfull persons . Where the Ministers do maruell , that the Doctors call faith a humane vertue , ( the great and maruellous effects it worketh considered ) : the Doctors say , that the Ministers haue no great cause to maruell thereat : seeing that euerie worke , in as much as it is in man , and that he therein worketh together with God , is iudged and reputed humane . Also the scripture calleth the faith of man , the worke of man. The Doctors shewe vnto the Ministers , that after their wonted maner , they dwell alwaies on small things , and leaue that which is principall in the matter : being ignorant ( or dissembling ignorance ) where lyeth the difficultie of that is handled . As they do in their answere vpon the argument proposed by the Doctors : whereby they obiect , that the Ministers by their faith ( call they it diuine or humane ) may doo more then God can do : wherevnto the Ministers ( without touching the point ) do answere with songs . In the 32. article , the Ministers lightly passe ouer many obiectious made them by the Doctors . Whether there bee superfluitie , or repetition in them , or whether they be impertinent , let the reader iudge . But for this cause the Doctors will not cease , to require eftsoones the Ministers , that they bring some passage of the scripture , to ground that God cannot make one body to be in two places : seeing that this consequence is ouerfoolish and ridiculous : God cannot lye . Therefore can he not make one bodie to be in two places . For so should they make their assumption . Now God hath said and ordained , that one body cannot be in two places : therefore can he not make it so to be . But neuer will they instruct by the truth of the Assumption or Minor Proposition : the contrarie whereof hath bene sufficiently verified by many testimonies of the scripture . The Doctors also require the Ministers to produce some Father , yea some man , euer reputed Catholique , which hath dared to pronounce , that God could not make one body to be in two places . For full answere , the said Ministers can bring forth none which euer hath vsed such a speech , except S. Augustine , but by them falsly alledged , both touching the letter , & the sence of the letter . The Doctors will not cease to beate both into the Ministers , and also all persons ; that there is no place of scripture found , nor booke of any auncient Father , that God cannot make one body to be in diuers places . Concerning the last article , the Doctors haue resolued to shewe by the pure and expresse word of God , expounded by common consent of all antiquitie , that our Lord did institute the Sacrament and sacrifice of the Aultar , and will teach the effect and vertue of the Masse , according to the institution and ordinance of Iesus Christ . And will make it also to be vnderstood , that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacrament by Iesus Christ instiruted . And that the Supper which the Ministers maintaine , is no way the Sacrament , but a prophanation of holy things , containing execrable blasphemie : whereof the whole world ought to haue horror . Sunday , the 12. of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid . The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors , sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 22. day of Iuly , about fiue of the Clocke in the enening . Anno. 1560. THe Ministers , before they answere particularly to the obiections and slaunders of the Doctors , seeing that each way , and causelesse , they taxe them for blasphemers : haue aduised to tell them in the beginning of theyr answere , that to bee wronged by them , they hold it not so great an iniurie , nor themselues the more blasphemers , for being so holden and reputed by them : no more then our Lord Iesus Christ , because he was so pronounced by Caiphas the high Priest , and S. St●phen , to whom the like crime was imputed by the enemies of truth : And Naboth who was likewise accused to haue blasphemed God and the king , albeit he was innocent . For it is the manner of all them which hate the truth , and the light , to blaspheme that which they vnderstand not ( as thereof write S. Peter and S. Iude ) and to giue the raines sometimes to their furie : so that they shamelesly denie things most apparant , and confesse others concerning the same , which bee straunge and absurd . Which thing is seene to haue befallen the Doctors about the Ministers : whom they neither can heare attentiuely , nor iudge of rightly . And the full end of their purpose ( it seemeth ) is , to contradict them indifferently in all things , and to say without any examination or iudgement , that whatsoeuer they produce , is blasphemy and lies . For the Ministers speaking of the omnipotencie of God , according to that they haue learned thereof , and is contained in the scriptures , haue euer said , that God is almightie , in as much as he can do ( without any exception ) whatsoeuer he will : and that there is no power in heauen nor in earth , which is able to let , alter , or in any maner or wise hinder the full effect and perfect execution of his eternall & vnchangeable counsailes . But neuerthelesse , that his omnipotencie must not be stretched without any discretion or distinction , to all the things generally which men can conceiue , or in their foolish phantasies imagine : but to those onely , which neither are , nor can be contrarie to his iustice , to his goodnesse , to his wisedome : nor consequently to his holy and eternall will , wisedome , and truth : which is , and euer shal be , to doo all things well and wisely , with number , waight , and measure : and without that there is any inequitie , disorder , or contradiction in whatsoeuer he doth . All which things being well vnderstood and considered , will discharge the Ministers among all good and iust people , from the s●aunders which the Doctors impose vpon them , and fal●ly published , to make them odious to all the world , and stirre vp publike hate against them . Wherefore , to make their slaunders more like to truth : by adding and diminishing , they change and alter almost the whole meaning of the Ministers : well knowing , that otherwise they could neuer haue meane to ground their slaunders , nor to giue any colour or likelihood therevnto : which thing shall now appeare by the deduction and particular confutation of the pretended blasphemies , obiected to the Ministers , by the said Doctors . First the Doctors accuse the Ministers , in that they haue said , that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured , but by the things onely which bee agreeable to his will , and are not derogate either to his wisedome , his truth , his nature : nor to the order which hee hath established in the world . And to verifie their accusation and slaunder , they breake in two this whole sentence , and take thereof but the last part onely , the which they haue seperated from those going before , wherewith it was conioyned expresly by the Ministers ; the more clearely to expound and shewe , how the omnipotencie of God ought to be knowne , beleeued , and adored of all the world . Moreouer , they haue not taken , nor vnderstood the word [ Order ] as doo the Ministers . Whereby the Ministers haue willed to signifie the estate and disposition , which God by his prouidence , and eternall , and vnchangeable will , hath established , conserueth , and entertaineth in all things : rightly to gouerne , and let that no confusion happen in his workes , euen as S. Augustine hath defined it in his bookes De Ordine : and hee himselfe hath vsed the same in the fift booke of his confessions . Which the Doctors not vnderstanding , haue reduced that which the Ministers thereof said , to the ordinarie and wonted course of nature , and to the mouing of creatures which bee in the world . And to giue exception to the doctrine aforesaid , they obiect the myracles which God doth aboue nature : and thereof inferre , that God doth , and can doo many things against the order by him established and decreed . Whervnto the Ministers answer ; that myracles , albeit they be done beyond & aboue the ordinary course of nature , yet are they not done against the order aforesaid . For as much as all things reduced to the prouidence , and ordinance of God , are well done and ordained , although that the reason and order therein , be oftentimes vnknowne to men : which Salomon wrote saying : God maketh all things good in their season . Wherevnto may be also applied , that which is read in the booke of Sentences of S. Augustine . Sent. 283. and 284. God who is the Creator and conseruer of nature , doth nothing in his myracles which are against nature . And it followeth not , that that which is new to custome , is contrary and repugnant to reason , &c. If the Doctors will know more thereof , let them reade the two bookes of Order ; which this holy man composed : and that which he wrote concerning myracles , in the fift and sixt Chapter of his third booke of the Trinitie . This answere shall serue for confutation of two other pretended blasphemies , which follow in the obiection of the Doctors . Concerning the fourth , the Ministers for answer say , that the will of God ( after the doctrine of Diuines ) may in two sorts be cōsidered : to wit , according to that which by words , signes , and effects , is declared to men : and according to that which is reteined & hidden in himselfe . The one is called the will knowne by signes : and the other the will of the good pleasure of God. For the first consideration the Ministers do confesse ( as heeretofore they haue to the Doctors ) that God can do many things , which he will not do . But as touching the other , they say : that it is equall to his power : as is also his power ( in this respect ) equall to his will. According to which consideration , the sentence of Tertullian alledged by the Ministers , and to the Monarchians ill applied by the Doctors , ought to be vnderstood and expounded : As all those may iudge , which attentiuely shall read the passage by the Ministers produced . Who to answer one slaunder of the said Doctors , which accuse them to haue wronged the auncient Fathers , in saying that they excepted some causes of the omnipotencie of Cod : are yet constrained here to repeate , that which Theodoret saith thereof in the 3. Dialogues who writeth as followeth . It must not be said without any determination , that all things are possible to God. For who so absolutely saith this , comprehendeth all things , as well good as bad , which no way ought to be attributed to God : whereby it appeareth , that this good author , and the other , before alledged by the Ministers , haue not indifferently submitted all things to the power of God : but excepted from the same , whatsoeuer is contrary to his will and essence . To be briefe , but one meane there is to appease the difference between the Ministers , who say that it is impossible for one body to be in diuers places at one instant : and the Doctors , which affirme the cōtrary , to wit , that the Doctors ( without taking so long circuit ) loosing so many words , and alledging so many superfluous things , do proue briefly by one only passage of scripture , that God willeth the same . Whether the Ministers haue well or euilly alledged Saint Augustine , to proue that a body cannot be without place and measures : and also whether they haue well or euilly said and defended , that quantitie is essentiall to a body , and not accidentall ( as hold the Doctors ) they leaue the iudgement to the Readers of the Actes of this Conference . Touching that which followeth in the writing of the Doctors : to wit , that there is no place aboue the heauens , that Iesus Christ is not therein comprised nor conteined , that bodies and spirites bee indifferently there , without any distinction or distance of place : the Ministers say , that touching all these points , they rather beleeue the scripture , and expresse word of God ( by them alledged ) then all the subtilties & sophistries of vaine Philosophie , which the Doctors , or others can propose . Ioyned herevnto , that it is expresly cōteined & taught in one of the articles of our faith : where it is said ; Frō whence he shall come to iudge the quick & the dead . Wherevpon must bee noted , that there is [ Vnde ] an Aduerbe signifying place . As touching the 4. and 5. articles , to know whether the Ministers haue ought imposed vpon the Doctors which is not true , they send backe the readers to the precedent conference . And also to know in what sence , and to what end , the auncient Fathers haue bene alledged by the said Ministers ; which they may easily perceiue by the reading , and diligent obseruation of the passages and sentences of the said Fathers there inserted . For the 6. article , wherein the Doctors had rather confesse their Canons to be false , then ( accusing their authoritie ) to auouch that the body of Iesus Christ is a true dody , and that to be such , it ought necessarily to bee in one certaine place : the Ministers answere , that by the obseruation of the place of S. Augustine , ( whence the said Canon is taken ) it is easie to iudge , that the word [ Oportet ] is there much more conuenient , then that of [ Potest ] . To the 8. article , the Ministers answere , that a substance is not without quantitie , and whiles it is such , and so remaineth , it cannot any waies be a body . And the reason is , because that of the substance , and that of the quantitie , are two diuers predicaments : vnder which , one selfe-same thing , for one selfesame respect , cannot be any way comprised . Moreouer , Iesus Christ alledged no other reason to shewe that his body was not a spirit , but that hee had members and parts , which in respect of their measures , might bee handled and touched . Whence it followeth , that without this , a substance cannot be a body . And as touching the difference which by the Doctors opinion should remaine betweene our soules and our bodies exempted from quantitie , ( if that were possible ) the Ministers say , that although they were substances both in number and different , they should neuerthelesse be like , as touching the kinde : and that the one and the other should be contained vnder the kinde of an incorporeall substance . The Ministers passe ouer the 9. article , because it is but a repetition , and that they haue largely answered what the Doctors there repeate . To the 10. article , the Ministers answere , that the consequence whereof is the question , cannot bee otherwise defended by the Doctors , but by the rule which saith : that of one absurditie may all things be inferred . Moreouer , they complaine of time , which the Doctors make them loose , by reading so many things wherevnto they haue alreadie answered , and which it seemeth they repeate not for any other ende , then to fill vp paper , and to make men thinke they say something . For first the Euangelist saith not ( as the Doctors pretend ) that Iesus Christ entered by the shut doores : but onely that he came , the gates beeing shut . So that he speaketh nothing there of the maner of his entry , nor how the doores were opened , or other place about the house by the which he entered . And all that which the Doctors say , cannot be grounded neither vpon the scripture , nor vpon any authoritie of all the auncient Fathers by them alledged : which bee more against them , then with them . And for conclusiō , they haue no other foundation of their saying , then their owne coniectures and imaginations , and the false interpretations which they giue to the writings of the Fathers . To the faith wherof they would gladly constraine & subiect the Church : to the end , that hauing laid that foundation , they might afterwards build therevpon , all the absurdities and errors they shall delight in touching the same . And where they presuppose when Christ entered the shut doores , walked vpon the waters , and went out of the Sepulchre : that such myracles were done rather in the person , then in the other things . Iustine writeth the contrarie , saying : that without any change happened , either in his body , or in that of S. Peter , he made by his diuine power the Sea against nature , to serue him to walke . As also S. Hillary to the same purpose saith : That by his power hee made all things passeable . Wherevnto likewise agreeth S. Iohn Chrisostome , attributing all that to diuine power , and freely confessing that hee knew not the maner and the fashion thereof . By meanes whereof , the Ministers are much abashed , that the Doctors are so presumptuous to determine a thing which by the scripture and Fathers hath bene left vndecided : and wherein ( as S. Hillary saith wisely ) sence and words do faile , & the truth of the deed , exceedeth the capacitie of humane reason . How dare then the Doctors so boldly say , that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores ; that there was penitration of dimensions ; that two bodies were in one selfe-same place ? Seeing that of all that , neither in the scripture , nor in the auncient Fathers , there is not one onely sillable : and that ( as is said ) the Fathers do confesse , that their vnderstanding and sence were too feeble to comprehend or declare the reason of such a my sterie . As touching the birth of Iesus Christ , the Ministers repose themselues vpon the scripture , which saith clearly , that the Virgin was with childe , that she brought forth , that shee gaue sucke , and that Apertaest vulua , the wombe is opened in the child-birth . They adde , that the same doth nought derogate nor preiudice her virginitie and purenesse , which consisteth in this point onely , that shee knew not , not was knowne of any man , Moreouer , they say that in beleeuing the same , they follow the scripture : and consequently they cannot erre , nor bee heretikes : nor they likewise which subiect and subdue their sence to the word of God : as in this haue done the Fathers which are by them alledged . In the following article proposed by the Doctors , touching the manner of the resurrection of Iesus Christ , there is nothing but coniectures , slaunders , & repetitions , troublesome and superfluous , which the Ministers by their former answeres haue largely satisfied . All that which afterwards followeth in the writings of the Doctors , are but iniuries and scoffes , in stead of reasons and arguments : which is the last recourse of contentious spirits : who seeing themselues destitute of reason , and vnable to giue place to the truth , defend themselues by clamours and slaunders . Some reason should the Doctors haue for that which they say concerning the word Aphantos , if there followed Autois : but that which the Euangelist saith Ap'auton , sheweth clearely , that the interpretation of the said place , and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose , ( where vnto the Ministers agree ) is better then that of the Doctors . As touching the opening of the heauens , the Ministers answere , that ( vsing the language of the scripture , which saith clearely , that in the baptisme of Iesus Christ , the heauens were clouen asunder , and then opned , when S. Stephen was stoned ) they cannot faile . And to apply to the ayre the signification of heauen , is a humane imagination . This also seemeth , should diminish the Maiestie of God , and of Iesus Christ , who is lifted vp aboue all the heauens , to establish so lowe as the ayre , the Throne of his Maiestie . And there is no likelyhood in that which the Doctors say , touching the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place ; and that which the Ministers say of the sight of Stephen , which extended euen to the heauens : for as much as the one is a myracle of the power of God in nature , and the other a wonder against nature , and the will of God. The Doctors in the article following , do falsly impute to the Ministers , that they affirmed , it was a thing impossible for God to make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle : for they neuer touched this point in theyr former answeres , but that part of the sentence onely , where it is spoken of rich men . Now to answere too , and resolue their obiections , the Ministers say , that euen as God can saue a rich man , by chaunging him , and emptying his heart of so much vaine trust and presumption , as is therein , and whereof beeing grosse and filled , hee is vncapeable to enter into the Kingdome of heauen : so to him it is also easie , to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle , hauing circumcised and pared off the grossenesse thereof , and other things which might hinder the same to passe . ****** First , that the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Church , is the true institution and ordinance of the sonne of God. Afterwards , that the end for which it was instituted , is to assure the faithfull of the true participation which they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ , crucified for their saluation , and in his bloud shead for the remission of their sinnes ; and for the confirmation of the new couenant , which God hath made with his people . Thirdly they say , that it is necessarie that the bread and wine abide in their proper substance , and that after consecration : otherwise they cannot be Sacraments of the body and bloud of Christ . Lastly the Ministers say , that the vnbeleeuers presenting themselues at the Supper , by meanes of their vnbeliefe , can there no other thing receiue , then the outward signes of bread and wine , and that to their iudgement and condemnation . The Ministers on the other side propose vnto them touching the Masse , that such as it is , and now celebrated in the Romance Church , it is nothing but a humane inuention and tradition . Also , that it is a corruption and prophanation , as well of the holy Supper of our Lord Iesus Christ , as of the true and lawfull vse thereof . Also , that it is an abuse of the Priesthood of Popish Priests , and that there is no other Priesthood in the new Testament ordained , to get and obtaine remission of sinnes ; nor also to make intercession , and by prayers and merits to obtaine the fauour of God , then the onely Priesthood of Iesus Christ . They say moreouer , that it is a blasphemie and sacriledge , but of the sacrifice of the Romish Priests , and that there is no other oblation , then that which Iesus Christ once made with his body vpon the Crosse ; by which the wrath of God could be appeased , his iustice satisfied , sinners reconciled to God , sinnes pardoned , and the hand-writing of eternall death cancelled and abolished . Also they say , that the seperation of the Priest in the Masse , from the rest of the people , is an abolishment of the Communion of the Supper : and consequently damnable before God. And to be briefe , the adoration of bread and wine , ( be it in the Masse , or out of the Masse ) is an intollerable Idolatrie . Two points yet remaine in the writing of the Doctors , whereof the Ministers will admonish them . The one is , that the said Ministers haue neuer found in the scriptures , that faith is a humane worke , but that it is the worke of God , and a gift which hee bestoweth vpon his elect . The other point is , that they confesse they cannot bring forth one auncient Author , which hath said in expresse termes , that one body could not be in diuers places at one instant : for so much as the contrarie thereof seemed so absurd and straunge vnto them , and so much against the reason and faith which all faithfull people ought to haue , that they neuer thought such an opinion had found place in the heart of any man that was called a Christian . The Ministers to ende this answere , say that it will much more please them , to handle the questions aforesaid , then to dispute of the opening of doores , of the Sepulchre , or of the heauens ; as to their great griefe , they haue done these dayes passed : and that for two reasons . The one , because that the decyding and resolution of such questions , cannot bee drawne nor gathered out of the scripture . And the second , because it cannot much serue either to the aduancement of the honour and glorie of God , or the edification and instruction of his Church . Thursday the 25. day of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid . The Doctors reply to the writing of the Ministers , sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 25. day of Iuly , about 8. of the clocke in the euening , the yeare , 1566. WHere the Ministers say , that they doo great wrong to call them blasphemers , seeing thereof they are innocent , as Iesus Christ , S. Stephen , and Naboth , to whome men falsly imputed such like crime . The Doctors say , that the Ministers therein doo imitate the good personages , the Donatists : who still complained of the great iniuries and slaunders which they endured ( said they ) of the Catholikes ; and yet men know by the histories how it was , and how much they were like to Christ , S. Stephen , and Naboth : as may also be knowne the conformitie of the said Ministers , to such holy examples . As much might the Anabaptists say to them of the Church called reformed , when they call them heretikes . And as much might and did Seruetus say , who for his blasphemies was burned at Geneua : reputing himselfe happie to be iudged by Caluin a blasphemer , and to suffer for his doctrine , the paines of death . We must not therfore beleeue that the Ministers are not blasphemers , because more boldly then all other heretikes , they reiect the name of blasphemer : but meet it is to examine whether their doctrine importeth blasphemie or not . Now the Doctors say , that there is no blasphemie worthy of more great execration , then to denie the omnipotencie of God : and no lesse it is then simply to denie that there is a God. So that such deniall importes an Atheisme . For to take from God , that which is proper to his nature , is as much to say , as there is no God. As it well pleaseth S. Basil , writing in one of his Homilies , intituled , That God is not the Author of euill . That it is no lesse blasphemie to say , that God is author of euill , then to say that God is not God. In so much as to take away from God his goodnesse , which to him is naturall , is wholy to take away his diuinitie . The like also may be said of the omnipotencie , that whosoeuer denieth or diminisheth the same , he denieth also his diuinitie . The question then is , to knowe whether the Ministers will abolish the omnipotencie of God , not in proper termes ( for they seeme to confesse it ) but in affirming that the power of God is measured according to his will , so that he cannot , but that which he will : and other like propositions contained in the precedent answere of the Ministers . Whether the Doctors haue proued such propositions to containe blasphemies or no , they refer them therin to euery man of sound iudgement , who shal be any thing conuersant in holy scriptures , and the bookes of auncient Christians : which shall also be knowne by the Ministers friuolous answeres in their last writing to the Doctors obiections . Who nothing maruel that the Ministers are deceiued in the nature of the omnipotencie , seeing they erre in the foundation , and know not wherein it lyeth , and why God is called almightie . For they haue learned of the scripture ( say they ) that God is almightie , because hee can doo whatsoeuer he will doo : and that nothing can resist him , which is rather as a signe of the power of God. But it is not that ( vnder correction ) wherein it consisteth ; for knowledge whereof , it must be considered according to it obiect : that is to say , according to the things possible to be done : so that there is nothing possible which God cannot do . Now all without any exception , is esteemed possible , wherein is found no contradiction to be , and not to be : and that commeth not by default of the power of God ( which can do all things ) but of the repugnancie of the thing which cannot be . Which the Ministers from the beginning had well said in euery answere : but for that they had answered vpon some Interrogatories that the omnipotencie of God must bee measured by his will , supposing to salue that error , they are plunged in many other errors , out of which ( for not consessing to haue erred ) they cannot rid themselues , without falling into an infinite number of absurdities . Moreouer , the Ministers deceiue themselues when they will limit the power of God , and not extend it to all things generally , that humane spirit can conceiue or imagine . For contrariwise , it is doubtlesse that the power of God is great aboue all conceit , and imagination of the humane spirit , that it is infinite and incomprehensible , as saith S. Paul : God can do more then we demaund or vnderstand . And where the Ministers say , that God onely can doo all things which are not contrarie to his iustice , wisedome , goodnesse , and truth , and therefore cannot doo generally all things . It hath alreadie beene shewed them , that to bee able to doo things contrarie to the iustice , wisedome , goodnesse , and truth of God , was not power , but weakenesse . And by the selfe-same reason ( as saith Saint Augustine , in the place by the Doctors in theyr former obiection alledged ) that he cannot do such things , it is an argument of his omnipotencie , and not of restraint thereof . And where the Ministers inferre , that because God cannot do such things , he can ( by consequence ) do nothing ; which is contrarie to his wisedome , and eternall will , which is , and euer shall be , to doo all things well and wisely , with number , waight , and measure , and without that there is any iniustice or contradiction in all that which he doth . Men may see how the Ministers disguise the matter in controuersie , concealing haue couched in their former writing , touching the order established in the world , against which ( said they ) God could doo nothing : and the other words of blasphemie , whereof the Doctors rebuked them , and which they durst not insert in their last answere , because their conscience accused them , and made them know , that such affirmations could not be maintained ; and from which , they cannot escape , but in denying to haue written them , and in accusing the Doctors of slaunder : as if by adding or diminishing , they had altered and chaunged the words of the Ministers . To be purged of which crime , the Doctors pray , that recourse be had to their last obiection , where these words are inserted in the first article . The which blasphemies are drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article . And the Doctors referre them to the conference may bee made of their last writing , with that of the Ministers . So that if it bee found ( as certainly it shall be found ) that the Doctors haue faithfully cyted the proper words of the Ministers writing , which the Ministers themselues will not auouch ; it shall be knowne at the least , that the Ministers haue hitherto maintained blasphemous propositions , and that the Doctors therein haue no way wronged them : hauing pardoned their persons , being content ( of the doctrine ) to say their simple opinion . The Ministers to shewe that they haue iust cause to accuse the Doctors of slaunder , say first that the Doctors haue broken in two their proposition : which was such , that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured , but by the things onely which be agreeable to his will , and be not derogate either to his wisedome , truth , nature , or to the order which he hath willed to establish in the world : and that the Doctors haue not taken but the last part onely . Who for their purgation , say that they haue alwaies considered what was put in difference : to wit , whether God could make one body to be in two places . And to examine the truth of this question , before they put it in writing , they haue reduced the whole to euery part of the Ministers proposition , and haue thus reasoned . God can do all things which are agreeable to his will : the which is knowne ( as the Ministers doo hold ) when there is nothing that derogateth , either to his wisedome , his truth , his nature , or the order by him established in the world . Now one body to bee in two places , derogateth not from the wisedome of God. For God should therefore not leaue to be wise . Also it derogateth not from his truth : for he hath neuer said , that he could not do it : nor from his nature . For although he should do it , hee should not cease to be God. If then there be any repugnancie , it should be , because it should derogate from the order by God established in the world . Which was the cause that they stayed not but on the last article . The Ministers also would not say as the Doctors suppose ) that to be able to make one body to be in two places , was a thing repugnant , either to the wisedome , truth , or nature of God : if not , in that they thinke it to repugne the order by God established in the world . Ioyned heerevnto , that the Ministers hauing put this proposition aboue said , for a rule to knowe what God can doo ; when they would apply this rule to the matter in controuersie , then should they thus say : To which things , that which the Doctors put foorth ( namely that one body , at one selfe-same instant , may be in diuers places ) repugneth . But the Ministers haue only sayd & written , to which , ( that is to say ) order &c. For such relatiue cannot agree , but to the next antecedent . Wherein is clearly seene , that the Ministers runne into the cryme of slaunder , which they falsly obiect to the Doctors . And whereas the Ministers say , that the Doctors take not the terme of the order established in the world , in the lyke sence , as they vnderstand it : The Doctors say , that they haue taken the terme according to the vnderstanding which the Ministers haue therof giuen : euen as they haue knowne by their words , which they haue heretofore vsed . For when the questiō was to set forth some myracle done by Iesus Christ , against , or aboue the nature of things created the Ministers haue had alwayes recourse to the common order of nature . As when speech hath bene of the closed doores , of the going out of the Sepulchre , of the wombe of the virgin , and of one body in diuers places ; No other reason to contradict it haue the Ministers alledged , but that it was all against the order established in the world , touching the nature of a body : which cannot be vnderstood , but of the common order which is seene in nature . Therefore the Doctors ( so taking the same , as the Ministers haue sufficiently declared in their former answeres , against the order of nature ▪ ) haue well inferred against the Ministers , that God could not then do a myracle , against the order established in the world . The Doctors know , that the auncient Fathers obserued not this difference , aboue or against nature : as by the testimony of Tertullian here before alledged , appeareth : Where it is said , that God against nature , can make a man flye as well as a byrd . But they will not stay vppon the rygor of wordes , but apply themselues to the Ministers with whome they conferre . Who call it a worke against the order established in the world , one body to be in diuers places , foras much as it withstansteth the common dispositiō and proprieties of bodies . And by such reason ( say the Doctors ) that all other myracles ought also to be esteemed against the order in the world established : because they be against the common disposition and proprietie of nature . And yet following the vnderstanding which the Ministers now giue of the order established in the world , for the estate and disposition which God hath established , conserueth and maintaineth all things , by his prouidence and eternall and immutable will , to gouerne all things rightly , and hinder any confusion to happen to his workes . Here againe do the Ministers commit a new blasphemy against the omnipotencie of GOD : for hee can wholly chaunge , vnchaunge , and destroy such order as hee hath established in the world ( albeit hee will neuer do the same ) and make a new world more perfect then this . And were it so , that hee could do nothing against this order , his power should be stinted and limitted . For hee could not do but certaine effects , according to the order which hee had established in the worlde . Which should not happen by the repugnancie of the nature of Creatures : but in as much as God himselfe should bee tyed . And so ( against the scripture ) should his hand be shortened , and his power forced and limitted : From which blasphemy , infinite others issue , as the Doctors when occasion shall serue , haue purposed to shewe . To the 2. & third blasphemies which the Doctors haue noted , the Ministers say , by the new interpretation of the order of the world , in one word they haue fully answered . Which ( to dissolue the argumēts produced by the Doctors ) commeth nothing to the purpose . And the Ministers passe ouer the alledged places of scriptures , which declare the blasphemie , and dissemble the contradiction of their doctrine , and of that of Caluin , touching the prouidence of God , in respect of the order established in the world . And the Ministers answere not to the Doctors obiectiō , that from the third blasphemie flow many others ; least in confessing the same , they might heape blasphemie vpon blasphemie , and make their doctrine by this meane , odious toall the world . For answere to the fourth blasphemie , vse the Ministers a distinction of the will of God , which may two wayes bee considered . The first is called the will knowne by signes : and the other , the will of good pleasure . The Ministers confesse , that according to the first , God can doo more then he will ; and not according to the second , which is ( as they say ) equall to the power of God , & is hidden and vnknowne to men . The which distinction if it ought to haue place , the Doctors obiect , that the foundation of the Ministers , wherevpon they stay the pretended truth of this proposition : God cannot make one body to bee in diuers places , is wholly destroyed . For the Ministers will haue the power of God to be measured according to his will , not according to the second , which is hidden vnto men . It behoueth then , that this be taken according to the first , by the which they confesse that God can do more then he will do . Whereof it followeth , that the rule by them giuen to measure Gods power , is false . For it cannot be measured by his will , seeing he can do more then he will. Moreouer the Doctors say , that the Ministers should not require thē to proue that God hath willed that one body should be in two places , to declare that he could do it . For the Doctors might obiect , that to teach that God may doo something , it needeth not to proue , that he hath formerly willed it . For ( according to the Ministers confession ) God can do more then he will. The Doctors adde , for as much as the will of God appeareth not to vs , but by signes , words , and effects : and that the order established in the world , according to his prouidence ( as the Ministers agree ) is hidden vnto men : that the Ministers cannot affirme , and shewe , that God hath established such order in the world , that one body may not bee in diuers places . For meete it were they should teach such an ordinance of God , and declaration of his will. Oft times haue the Ministers bene required , to bring one onely place of scripture , where such a will of God is manifest : and where it is said , that hee cannot make one body to bee in diuers places . As touching the place of Tertullian , the Doctors for vnderstanding thereof , refer themselues to euery man of sound iudgement : and say , that the Ministers haue ill to the purpose alledged Theodoret : and it maketh more against them , then with them . For when he writeth that it must not be indeterminately said , that God can do all things , comprehending therein good and euill ; in that he maketh no restraint of the omnipotencie of God : but contrariwise , doth amplifie the same : in so much , that not to be able to do euil things , is both a vertue and power , as before hath beene largely declared . Where the Ministers do instant the Doctors to shewe , that God hath willed one body to bee in two places : the Doctors answere , that these are two different questions , whether God can do it : or whether he hath willed it . And when it shall be confessed ( as it ought to bee of all Christians ) that the power is in God , very easie shall it be to shewe the will , by the word , of the Supper , and of the Ascention : which they of the pretended reformed religion haue accustomed to depraue , and disswade men from , by the impossibilitie which they faigne to bee in God , to put one body in two places . Also the Doctors leaue it to the readers iudgement , whether S. Augustine haue bene cyted by the Ministers to the purpose or no. And to that which concerneth whether ihe quantitie be essentiall to a body , or not : the Doctors ( speaking of a body as doth Philosophers , namely , In predicamento quantitatis ) haue neuer doubted but it is essentiall . But the difficultie is to know , whether to be circumscript in a place certaine , be essentiall to a body ? And the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently proued that it is not essentiall , but that it is an accident naturall to a body . And they verifie their saying , by the definition of a body , wherein all essentiall reason is comprised : and such it is , that a body is a kinde of firme quantitie of three dimensions , length , breadth , and deepenesse : where no mention is made of the circumscription of place in the saide definition . What pertaineth to the question concerning places aboue the heauen , the Ministers ( as they are wont ) do lightly passe ouer . And for want of good answere , they wrong the Doctors , calling them Sophisters . And that which they bring to confirme that our Lord is in one place aboue the heauen , is ouer friuolous . For by the same reason might one conclude , that the diuinitie is circumscript . And Aduerbes signifying place , shall be found in the scripture , when it speaketh of the diuinitie , as well as when it speaketh of the humanitie of Iesus Christ . Where the Ministers impute to the Doctors that they confesse their Canons to be false , it is a manifest slaunder . For the Doctors acknoweldge not any Canons , but in as much as they are taken out of the Councels , & other bookes authenticke : and not according as they are extracted of any particular person : as is the polinge of Gratian : wherevnto they giue no credit , but as much as that which hee cyteth deserueth . For resolution of the 8. article , the Doctors send the Ministers to the schoole of Philosophers , to vnderstand , that in a predicament of substance , there is a body , which is a kind of substance : and in a predicament of quantitie , an other body , which is a kinde of quantitie . And to learne them also , that the body which is of quantitie , is accidentall ( and not essentiall ) to a body of predicament of substance . Moreouer , the Ministers do erre against all Philosophie , calling a materiall substance , incorporall . But the Doctors will not rest vppon such things , and are much grieued that they haue not to do with people better grounded in Ppilosophie . For that , being such , they could better touch the reason then the Ministers do . The Doctors doo maintaine the consequence of two bodies in one placle , to infer it for necessarie , that one body may be in two places : for there is like reason , and like inconuenience in the one , as in the other . And therefore if the one be to be done , the other is possible : and so they referre it to the readers iudgements . Where the Ministers complaine of the time they haue lost in reading the reasons , arguments , and allegations , touching the closed doores , and other articles . The Doctors say , that in the matter in question , the Ministers haue no cause to complaine of ouer-great prolixitie , for feare of loosing time . And that there is matter sufficient to spend the time withall , would they with patience ( bringing with them good will , and all passion excluded ) examine the testimonies of the Auncients , and reasons drawne from the same . But the Doctors do wel proue , that when there is any thing which presseth the Ministers , then set they a good face on the matter , and make semblance to haue right on their side . Moreouer , the Doctors are much amazed , how the Ministers are so bold to say , that Iustin and all the Auncients haue not placed the myracle of the passage of the doores , in the body of Iesus Christ : seeing that Iustin expresly proposeth the question , how it is possible that a thicke bodie is not hindered to passe through the closed doores . In the answere of which question , they conclude the same : that for as much as such myracle was done in the nature of the body of Iesus Christ , the Apostles esteemed it was not a true bodie , but a spirite : as if the bodie had beene transformed into a spirite : which Iustin saith did not happen : but that without any chaunge of nature , such an operation , to passe through the closed doore , was giuen to the body of Iesus Christ by the omnipotencie of God : and Iustin saith not , that any myracle was wrought in the sea , when Iesus walked therevpon : but that by the almightinesse which was in him , he made it walkeable , without any chaunge of the nature , either of his body , or of the sea : although that the myracle were in his body , which against it nature so walked . It is not sufficient to alledge out of S. Hillary , that the power of God made passage to the body of our Lord. For he saith not that onely ; but addeth the manner of the deed ▪ to wit , that the body passed without change or diminishing of it nature , and without hauing any opening . But that by the operation of the almightinesse , he passed notwithstanding , which wrought in his body , piercing the shut and closed places : Nihil ( inquit ) cessit ex solido parietum : nothing ceased ( saith he ) of the firmnesse of the walles : and other like words which he bringeth : of which can no other thing be vnderstood , but a piercing of many bodies . S. Chrisostome expresly disputeth of the body , which against it nature passed through the closed doores , as through the wombe of the virgin , without fraction . And he saith not simply that hee knoweth not wherein the worke consisted ( for he describeth it ) but he amplifieth the power of the worke : and saith , that he cannot comprehend the reason and greatnesse thereof , for as much as it proceeded from the power of the incomprehensible Cod. Concerning this whole point , the Doctors refer them to the reading of the bookes , without more debating thereof against the Ministers : who think alwayes to abuse the ignorance of those which beleeue thē , denying or affirming what they thinke good . And it troubleth and grieueth the Doctors , that they are constrained to repeate the former reasons so familiarly , and clearly deducted : But the Ministers euasions so often repeated , enforce thē eftsoones to inculeate that , which of these articles ought to be beleeued by the common consent of the Fathers . The Doctors are abashed at the maner of the Ministers answere : who without regard of that hath bene obiected to them , say what they please , without answering to the arguments of the matter proposed : As they do in the article of the byrth of Iesus Christ : In the deductiō wherof the Doctors haue brought many testimonies of the Ancients , which hold , that our Lord ( as he was also there conceaued ) myracuculously issued from the wombe of his mother : And that the said Fathers did witnesse , such byrth to haue bin made without any fraction in the body of the virgin , and condemned of heresie all those which held the contrary . Which thing the Ministers will yet maintain , and for full answere , affirme the same : relying ( as they say ) vpon the scripture , and not daring to say openly , that to cleaue to their proper sence , they reiect the determination of the ancient & primitiue Church . Which is very cleare notwithstanding by their answere to this article : wherein they falsly cyte the scripture , as though it contained , that in the byrth of our Lord , Aperta fuerit vulua virginis : The wombe of the virgin was opened . And where they say , that such an opening repugneth not the corporall virginitie , ( whereof is the question ) they belye the resolution of the auncient Fathers , which haue determined of that deed . Whether in the Article of the Resurrection there be but coniectures , the reading of the Doctors obiection will witnesse . The which they may see , that desire to know the truth thereof . Where the Ministers do complaine in the end of the article of the Resurrection , that the Doctors do wrong and scoffe them ; the Doctors doubt not , but the Ministers are sore troubled , that their subtilties and maner of dealing are discouered : the which , did men well vnderstand , they would not suffer themselues so easily ( as heeretofore ) to be deceiued . The solution which the Ministers pretend to giue , because it is not Aphantos autois , but Ap'auton is impertinent . For howsoeuer it was , our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples , were it by suddaine vanishing , or otherwise ; the which vanishing , in a body present to perfect sight , cannot be done , except the body be made to them inuisible . And howsoeuer it be , the Greeke Text beareth inuisible and vnapparant . As touching the article of the opening of the heauens , the Ministers as they are wont , answere not to the purpose : For it is not said , that the heauens were clouen asunder , or opened , when he ascended thither : as at the baptisme of Iesus Christ , and when it is spoken of the vision of S. Stephen . But the scripture saith expresly , that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens , and not that the Heauens were opened vnto him . And the Ministers cannot forbeare to slaunder the Doctors , in deprauing the vnderstanding of their writings : as is seene in this present answere , where the Ministers faineto haue vnderstood , in that place of the scripture , mencioning Iesus Christ to haue pierced the Heauens , that the Doctors by the name of Heauen , will haue the ayre to be signified : which the Doctors neuer thought : but haue oft times sayd , that when it mencioneth the opening of the Heauens , by the Heauens it vnderstandeth the aire : which so ought not to be applyed , when our Lorde is sayd to haue pierced the Heauens . By such manner of answere do the Ministers thinke , to cause the force of the Doctors reason to be forgotten . Who said thus : If when it is said in the scripture that the Heauens were opened , the words ought strictly to be taken , and truly to be vnderstood , that the heauens were opened : It likewise behoueth , when the scripture saith , that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens , that the word [ pierced ] be taken in it proper signification and strictly : which thing directly repugneth the diuision or opening , as things opposed one to another . To which reason , there is no answere giuen , more then ordinarily is to the other arguments of the said Doctors . Touching the differēce which the Ministers put , between the sight of S. Stephen , which stretched euen to the height of Heauen , and the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place : and that the one is a myracle in nature : and the other a wonder against nature , and the will of GOD. The Ministers ( good Secretaries of Gods Counsaile and will ) should do much , if they could teach the Doctors , that God hath willed the one , and that hee cannot will the other : and then shall there bee reason for their saying , to shewe the difference they haue assigned betweene these two . The inconstancie of the Ministers is knowne in the article where the Camell is mentioned : to wit , whether God can cause him to passe through the eye of a needle . For in the Ministers first answere , made without any distinction , haue they answered , that to make a Camell ( or Cable ) to passe through the eye of a needle , was a thing impossible with God. And in the second answere do they alledge , that Iesus Christ , ( in saying , that what was impossible with men , was possible with God ) no other thing pretended , but to answere the question which his Disciples had proposed : namely , who could be saued : answering wherevnto , he said : that it was impossible with men : and that such sentence of Iesus Christ , ought not to be vnderstood , but of the saluation and conuersion of rich men onely : which exclusiue speech ( when the Ministers affirme , that our Lord saying , that what is impossible to man , is possible with God ; must not be vnderstood , but of the saluation of the rich ) clearely sheweth , that the Ministers intent was to say by their answere , that our Lord ment not to comprehend vnder this proposition ; [ That which is impossible with men , is possible with God ] : the possibilitie to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle . As if this proposition were not to be generally vnderstood , whereof our Lord inferreth this particular . It is possible with God to saue a rich man. And hee himselfe by expresse words speaketh generally : Omnia apud Deum possibilia snnt . With God are all things possible . The Doctors desire , that they which can read this present writing , would note the starting holes of the Ministers , who wontedly auouch , and denie the errors they maintaine , when they are thereof by the trueth conuinced . Now the Ministers ( not daring to persist in defence , that God cannot cause a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle ) haue inuented a very foolish interpretation , in confessing that God can do it , but that the meanes should be in this , that God might pare off and diminish the grossenesse of a Camell , and all other things which might hinder it passage there . But that glose the Text cannot brooke : For our Lord speaketh of a thing wholy impossible to men : which should not be . For although to make and bring forth a Camell of so little stature and bignesse , that he might passe thorow the eye of a needle , were a thing impossible with man , yet if God brought forth such a one , or if he did so much diminish the greatnesse and grossenesse of a Camell , and that man might hold the same , he might well cause it to passe . But the question is not of the production of a Camell , or of making him great or small ; but of causing him to passe . The which ( were hee so little ) should not be a myracle as touching the passage , but onely touching the production of such a liuing Creature , or the chaunging of his quantitie . Also in taking this name Camelus , for a Cable ( as Caluin thought best ) the absurditie of this new exposition shall better appeare . For well may man so much lessen a Cable , by the detraction of it matter , that in the ende he may make it passe through the eye of a needle . Moreouer it should be easie for a man to make a needle , whose eye should be so large , that a Cable , ( yea a Camell ) might passe there through . But the scripture speaketh of things impossible with man , and as they are in their owne nature . Therefore as the eye of a needle must be taken in it little and straight quantitie : so also must a Camell or Cable , be taken in it naturall grossenesse . And neuer were the Auncients so subtill , to in t uent such ingenious interpretations , as one could not reade without laughter . But the Ministers cannot escape with this goodly exposition , that one seeth not clearly , they deny the power of God can stretch so farre , that it can make a Camel in his crookednesse and thicknesse , to passe through the eye of a needle : but only when hee shall by the power of God , be brought into quantitie proportionable to the eye of a needle , which is against the expresse Text of the scripture , and against the expositiō of auncient interpreters : although that besides the litterall sence , the Camel be sometimes allegorically expounded by them . But the allegorical exposition of that place , taketh not away the truth of the litteral sēce , no more then the acts of Iesus Christ cease to be true acts , albeit the interpreters expound them allegorically . Wherin the Ministers are deceiued , supposing , because they haue read in S. Ierome some interpretation besides the litteral , that the comparison which our Lord in this behalf hath vsed , was a parable , which is false . For a true argument it is which our Lord deduceth , to shewe his power to saue a rich man : because this is a thing more hard , thē to cause a Camel to passe through the eye of a needle . The Doctors to conclude vpon this article , do eftsoones shew vnto the Ministers , that of the deniall of the stretching forth of Gods almightinesse , many other absurdities , which cannot otherwise be termed then blasphemies , do follow . Namely , that two bodies cannot be in one place by the almightinesse of God : that GOD cannot make a bodie without circumscription of place : that Iesus Christ entered not , nor could enter through the closed doores : arose not , nor could a●●●e , without the stone were rowled from the graue : that hee went not , nor could goe out of the Virgines wombe , without fraction in the bodie of his mother : that hee pearced not , nor could pearce the heauens , without opening of them : that he made not , nor could make a bodie ( no not his owne ) inuisible : that he could not cause a Camell ( or Cable ) retaining it grossenesse , to passe through the eye of a needle . Which things do follow the deniall of his almightinesse , and is an execrable blasphemie , and very Atheisme . Behold the enormious absurdities which they are constrained to confesse , that denie the real presence of Iesus Christ in the Sacramēt of the Aultar ; which the Doctors pray to be well considered by the readers of this present writing . Concerning that which the Ministers make question of in the last article of their answere , that the Doctors doo call faith a humane worke , seeing that it is of God : they ought no more to wonder thereat , then infinit other truthes , which seemeth straunge to them because their doctrine is founded on the grounds of error : among which , one of the principall is ; That man hath not free will : that man to thinke well , will well , and doo well , worketh not together with God : against many places of scripture which setteth downe man co-working with God : and for his faith and workes , hath of him reward and recompence . The which , without wandring from the purpose , shall more aptly be handled in an other place . The Doctors like well , that the Ministers do confesse that the anciēt Fathers haue neuer said , God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places : which thing is true . But the reason which they yeeld , why they haue not so sayd , is of the Ministers owne forge and inuention . It remaineth , that they shewe vs so much by the testimony of the Scripture concerning the same : For no more is it therein found , then in the writings of the Fathers . Whereof the said Ministers haue bene oft admonished , who say they build all their doctrine vpon the word of God. Had the Ministers in the beginning confessed the truth of the Omnipotencie , or else had they said , that they acknowledged that Iesus Christ could cause his body to be aboue , and here belowe in the Sacrament , really and truly , if he so would : than had it bene needlesse to handle these former questions , which neuerthelesse , are not of small consequence , as the Ministers do esteeme them . Which thing appeareth by the writings of the Fathers , who haue diligently handled these places , and strengthened themselues therewith against heretiques : But because the Ministers would not agree , that God can make one body to be at one selfe-same instant , in diuers places ; And that if the Doctors had begunne to declare his will to haue bene such , that he had ordained the body of Iesus Christ should be in Heauen , and in the Sacrament . The Ministers might haue sayd ( as they of theyr sect doo say ) that God hath not willed it , because he could not . The Doctors had rather first intreate of the Almightinesse , then of the will. And seeing the matter of the Omnipotencie hath bene sufficitntly tossed , they are determined to prooue , that Iesus Christ hath willed and ordained , that his bodie should bee in diuers places . In the probation of which thing , when they haue vnderstood the Ministers opinion , of that they holde in theyr Churches touching that matter , they will enter into the former Conference , to the ende that theyr trauell be not in vaine . For that they follow not ( it seemeth to the Doctors ) that which Caluin and Beza holde concerning the same . For which cause ( say the Doctors ) that the Ministers abuse the people : fayning to teach that , which in the reformed Church they haue wontedly done : and yet their answere addressed to the Doctors , sheweth the contrary . In that the Ministers repute themselues happie , to endure such reproaches , to be esteemed seducers by the Doctors , let them remember , that all sects may say as much therof as they : whether by right or wrong , it wil appeare by examination of their doctrine . The Doctors resolution touching the article of the Almightinesse of God , in regard of foure questions by them propounded to the Ministers : which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament . EVery man which can patiently cōsider by the scriptures , beginning at Abraham , the Father of the faithfull , vnto the last writing of the Apostles : shall finde , that the well spring of all infidelitie hath ordinarily beene , to haue regarde to the proprietie of creatures , and common order of nature , to contradict , doubt of , and distrust the word of God. For which reason , Tertullian and other former Christians sayd well : that Phylosophers , and they that stayed vpon things naturall , were the Fathers of Hereticques : because the contemplation of Nature , engendered almost all heresies : On the contrary side , shall one perceiue the almightinesse of God , to be proposed by the scriptures , as a sharpe sword , cutting in peeces all arguments which might come of naturall reasons : for a certaine and finall resolution to beleeue whatsoeuer is couched & borne by the said word of God , albeit impossible & incomprehensible to euery creature : and faith to be staied on that same power in all doubts , which might be offered or proposed . All the difficultie which Abraham made vppon the promises of God to him , did proceed of certaine impossibilities of nature , which he sawe in himselfe and in his wife . And it seemeth hee had alwayes regard therevnto , vntill God vsed his authoritie , and said vnto him : I am God all sufficient . Is any thing hard to the Lord ? After this rebuke and remonstrance of God , Abraham did then forget all consideration of the proprieties of his nature , and laid hold on this shield of faith : which is to knowe , and to bee fully perswaded , that God is almightie , to whom nothing is hard or impossible . And after that , when question was of killing his onely sonne ; albeit hee had great apparance of contradiction in nature , and in the word of God , which had beene giuen him : to wit , that of the seed of that sonne should hee proceed , which should giue blessing to all Nations , and notwithstanding hee must kill him before hee had any lynage of his bodie issued . Neuerthelesse hee made not protestation , opposing that contradiction of nature , and of the word of GOD , to maintaine , that that which had beene said and promised vnto him was impossible : but hee had recourse to the stay of faith , and of the faithfull ( saieth Saint Paul to the Hebrewes ) that is to say , to the omnipotencie , esteeming that God had the meane to make true both the one and the other : namely , to cause his sonne to die , and rise againe , to drawe from him afterwards lynage and posteritie : although as yet there had beene no example of the resurrection . Likewise the consideration of creatures , and the order of nature which Moses sawe before him , made him fall into Infidelitie . And God shewed him his fault , in that he would deny him the power , long time with flesh to nourish his people : because the nature of the wildernes did not afford it : and did admonish him to lift vp his spirit to the omnipotency against nature , and there to assure his faith . Moses said : Sixe hundred thousand people there are , among whom I am : and thou saist , I will giue them flesh , that they may eate therof a month long : Shall the sheepe and beeues be slaine to find them ? Either shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them to suffice them ? God answered Moses , Is the hand of the Lord shortnea ? thou shalt now see whether my word shall come to passe , or no. In like maner , as often as one shall reade in the scriptures , that the people , or other particular persons , fell into vnbeliefe or distrust of Gods helpe and succor , he shall know , that the cause hath ordinarily bene , for staying vpon the nature and disposition of humane things : without sufficient apprehension of the power of God. And contrariwise , to confirme them , that this power was set before their eyes : diuers examples therof haue heretofore bene brought out of Esay and Ieremy . In the new Testament , the Virgin hauing regard to the naturall maner of conceauing , seemed to doubt of the mean of her conception . And she said : How shall this thing be , seeing I know not man ? And the Angell answering , sayd vnto her : Nothing shall bee impossible with God. Drawing her backe from the cogitations of naturall proprieties , which is the roote of Infidelitie , and exhorting her to thinke vpon the Almightinesse of God , which is the chiefe stone and rocke , wherevpon true Religion is builded . Which thing considered : The Doctors for their resolution of this conference with the Ministers , do say : that with good right hath the omnipotency of God very expresly obtained the first place , among the articles of the Apostles Creed : as being that , by which all the other articles of faith , and the workes of God aboue nature , are belieued and maintained , against all contradiction and repugnancy of nature , or reason , which may be pretended or alledged : And without the which , any article of faith , or any the workes of God surpassing nature , and contained in the scriptures , could not be defended and maintained , against the assaults of malice , and depriuation of humane spirit : which alwayes tendeth to infidelitie , and disobedience towards his God : and from his byrth is prompt and subtil to depraue and slaunder his word and commandement . By meanes whereof ( say the Doctors ) that so much the more ought euery Christian to inforce himself , to hold and keep that article entire , without suffring any to make any exceptiō therof , or to restrain it at his pleasure , vnder any pretexts of ( I know not what ) repugnancies of creatures ; which humane spirit proposeth , for want of vnderstanding and comprehending the greatnesse of God. For the scriptures do euer present vnto vs this omnipotēcy generally without any restraint , in regard of creatures , or of the workes of God. And teacheth vs , that the creatures is in his hands , as the clayin the hand of the Potter , to receiue such change and forme , as shall seeme good vnto him : without that they can say , Why hast thou made or chaunged mee thus ! Such similitude and words the Prophet Esay , Ieremy , and S. Paul do vse . Moreouer , the Doctors say : that men must yet lesse be lycensed to limit and bound the foresayd power , according to the contradictions which in theyr writings they imagine of the nature , wisedome , or eternall will of God : Seeing that the scripture saith plainly , that God can doo more then wee vnderstand , and mocketh at them which will entermeddle with the nature , wisedome , and eternall will of God : as though they had bene of counsell with him to know thereby the decisions and ordinances , more then his owne word pronounceth thereof . And S. Paule in the end constraineth with himselfe euery spirit created , to cry out , confessing his ignorance of the power , wisedome , and workes of God : Oh the deepnesse of the riches , wisedome , and knowledge of God , how incomprehensible are his iudgements , and his wayes past finding out . For who is he that hath knowne the minde of the Lord ? Or who hath bene his Counsailor ? And an excellent saying of S. Augustine vpō this point is to be noted , who in an Epistle Advolusianum saith : We confesse , that God can doo something , the which in searching , wee cannot finde . As if hee would say : to wit , if God can doo something , albeit in our naturall iudgement wee thinke it impossible : wee esteeme it neuerthelesse that it is possible : but that the capacitie of our spirit cannot comprehend the same . The Doctors say asso , that by such libertie and meanes that any will exempt what hee liketh from the power of God , vnder colour of some impossibilities of nature , or of repugnancie , after his owne iudgement , to the nature , wisedome , and will of God : each one will studie to faine the like , in all matters of faith : wherein such causes may bee easily inuented , and well disguised . And that it is so , from the first article of the Creed vnto the last , let all the heresies which haue bene there contradicted , be from time to time obserued , and it will appeare , that all haue held this way and method , to fight against euery article of faith , as impossible to God : respecting the impossibilitie of the worke according to nature , and some pretended inconueniences , against the nature , wisedome , will , and glorie of God. The Doctors employ to this effect , the two first bookes of Tertullian : one whereof is , of the incarnation of Iesus Christ : and the other , against the Marcionists of the resurrection of the flesh : In which the Christian reader shall perceiue the like arguments of those Marcionists , endeuouring to exempt from the omnipotencie of God , the incarnation of our Lord , and the resurrectiō of the flesh . Then to conclude this point , the Doctors do forewarne euery Christian , that they adde not ought to the scriptures , which speake alwaies without any limitation of the power of GOD towards the creatures : and to the ende , to praise the infinite power , wisedome , and eternall will of our Creator and Redeemer : and to the end to preserue the closet of Gods secrets from euery shamelesse and impudent person , which of his own folly wil make a law , not only to mē , of heretikes . Credendo non credunt . To wit , that in beleeuing Gods omnipotencie , they beleeue it not . For after they haue said that no exception is to be put vnto it , on the other side they returne to declare , that it ought not bee extended to euery thing , which humane spi● t can conceiue . And indeed , they will not apply vnto it , but what seemeth good vnto them : and shrowd themselues with the nature , wisdome , and eternall will of God : which to them are vnknowne , and incomprehensible , as that of the Omnipotencie . The Doctors therefore do admonish all men to beware of beeing abused with the words of Caluin and his Ministers : but to regard the works which they denie to be in the power of God. The Doctors haue proposed to them these foure questions : to wit , whether God can make one body to be in two places : and ( contrariwise ) two bodies in one place : whether hee can lodge one body in a lesse space then the greatnesse thereof : and whether he can make it invisible . And such questions haue beene specially chosen : because the principall arguments of the pretended reformed Religion against the true presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament , are founded vpon the same . The Doctors beleeue simply ( as all other things ) that the foure questions are possible to God , and haue proued the same by the infinitenesse of his power , by the scriptures , which attribute vnto him all power without exception , ouer the creatures : and by written examples and straunge my racles wrought vpon their bodies , against the nature of them . Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection , saith : To the end wee may beleeue , that our God is more mightie then all lawe and nature of all bodies : And addeth : that they knowe God amisse who thinke that is not in his power , which they in their braine cannot comprehend . From whence it commeth ( as saith S. Cyrill ) that such wicked spirits doo reiect and condemne all things as impossible , because they themselues do not vnderstand them . Moreouer the Doctors suppose they haue sufficiently shewed , as well by expresse scripture , as by the expositions thereof , taken from auncient Christians , that it was not onely in the power of God to make two bodies in one place , and one body without place equall to it greatnesse , but that alreadie it was truly done in the birth of the body of our Lord Iesus Christ : in his resurrection : in the entrie through the closed doores : and in the ascention aboue all the heauens . And the Doctors haue shewed , that there was like and semblable repugnancie in these deeds , as in the other : that is , of one body in two places : which is not exempted by the scripture , from the power nor will of God , more then the others , to iudge it impossible to bee done : and that there was neuer Christian before our time , which dared to affirme that thing to be impossible , ●nd out of the power of God , although occasion was often offered to say it , had they any way thought it impossible : as the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion do pretend . Contrariwife , the most part of the auncient authors of the Primitiue Church , haue held it expresly to be in Gods power to place one creature in many places : as held Saint Ierome against the heretike Vigillantius , that the soules of the Saints might be present in many places , with the immaculate Lambe our Lord Iesus Christ . And the question was , whether the said soules , and spirits of the Saints , were sometimes present in the Churches where their Sepulchres and monuments were . And so much thereof holdeth S. Augustine in the 16 ▪ Chap. of the booke which he wrote of the due care of the dead : where he writeth , that soules by the power of their owne nature , cannot be here belowe , and in heauen , or in many places : but that it may be done by the power of God : and will not resolue whether they vnderstand our affaires by such a presence in many places , or by the reuelation of Angels , or other meanes by the power and grace of God. Also it is certain , that in the matter of the holy Sacrament , the auncient Fathers of the Church haue acknowledged and maintained , that the bodie of Iesus Christ was in many places by the almightie power of God. As doth S. Ambrose vpon the tenth of the Epistle to the Hebrewes : and Saint Chrisostome in his 17. Homily vpon the same Epistle . Where both two as it were in like words do write , that although in many places there are many actions and oblations of the body of Iesus Christ : neuerthelesse ( hauing regard to the thing which is offered , to wit , the true lambe and body of Christ Iesus ) that this sacrifice in many places offered is but one , for so much as it is but one selfe-same thing : to wit , the true lambe , and the true body of Iesus Christ , which is but one , and abideth whole in all places where it is offered . They adde also , that the oblations of him in diuers places , is not an iteration of the sacrifice of the Crosse : but in commemoration of him . So that in the sacrifice of the Masse , they acknowledge and distinguish two points . The one which concerneth the realtie of the thing offered : and they say , that this is the true lambe , and true body of Iesus Christ : which then remaining intierly one , is neuerthelesse in many places . And the other concerneth the action and oblation of such thing by the Priest , which is no iteration , nor like action or oblation as that of the Crosse : but diuerse , in remembrance notwithstanding of that was made vpon the Crosse . S. Chrisostome in the third booke of Priesthood , cryeth out saying : Oh myracle and power of God! He which sitteth on high at the right hand of his Father , is held betweene the hands of each one in the Sacrament . S. Augustine vpon the 33. Psalme sheweth , that the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper was in two places : that is to say , in it visible place among his Apostles ; and neuerthelesse betweene his owne hands . So that he himselfe did beare himselfe . And before he concludeth the same , Saint Augustine debateth how it was possible that one person should beare his body betweene his hands . And after he had shewed that it was impossible for Dauid , and cuerie creature , he descended at last , to the diuine power which was in Iesus Christ : by the which , to him alone among all men , such myracle was possible . And to the ende that men should not depraue , nor wrest the meaning of S. Augustine , ( because there is something which after a sort is carried as though it diminished the truth ) let them note that the purpose of S. Augustine is , to shewe that Iesus by his almightinesse did carrie himselfe , which to any creature was impossible . Now had he onely in the Supper borne betweene his hands the figure of the Sacrament , and signe of his body , and not his true and reall body , hee should haue done nothing , but what the least man might do . For each man can carrie betwixt his hands , the figure , Image , signe or Sacrament of his body , or sticke it in his hat , without myracle or supernaturall power . It be houeth then , that the certaine maner which S. Augustine vseth , doth nothing diminish the truth : and this it is , that betweene his hands he was inuisible , and in a supernaturall maner of being ; reall neuerthelesse and true . S. Basil in his Liturgie with the others , auoucheth the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen , and by his almightinesse notwithstanding to bee present in the Sacrament : although the Ministers to proue it impossible for one body , or one other creature , to be in many places , do chiefly build vpon S. Basil : but the said S. Basil , in the place by the Ministers alledged , doth expresly protest , not to speake but according to the naturall proprietie . And in his Liturgie he declareth , that it is not onely in the power of God to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen , and vpon the Aultar ; but that it is so truly done . The Doctors to end this question of one body in many places , say : that such matter is not onely in the power of God , but that it must so be beleeued to bee done in the holy Sacrament , that God be not found a lyar and deceiuer in his word : whereby Iesus affirmed to his Apostles , that that which he gaue with his hands , was his true body , deliuered for vs. This is an argument which Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection maketh , after hee had disputed against them which denied the same to be possible with God. And it seemeth they then said ( as the Ministers haue formerly said ) that there was something by the scriture impossible with God : to wit , that he could not lye , nor deceiue : and that thereof they tooke occasion to goe further , and to dispute that the resurrection was to him also impossible . So that the Ministers , because God cannot lye , haue endeuouted ●o inferre , that to put one body in two places , was impossible for him , as well as to lye and deceiue . Tertullian in the end accordeth with the Marcionists , and saith : Rather had I confesse that God cannot deceiue , and that hee is onely weake and impotent in deceit : to the end , that thereby hee seeme not to haue taught and spoken one way , and to haue otherwise disposed of the deed contained in his word . Then if hee cannot ( concludeth Tertullian ) deceiue and abuse , the resurrection must be beleeued , as it is carried in his word , and not otherwise , least deceit be found in the word of God. The Doctors say also , they willingly confesse , that God cannot lye , nor deceiue : and that it must therefore be beleeued , that so he hath willed and ordained the truth of the Supper , in such sort , and not otherwise , as his word soundeth and beareth . Now so it is , that his word plainly and expresly beareth , that he affirmeth that what hee gaue with his hands to his Apostles to eat , was his body , deliuered for vs : we must therefore beleeue that his word saith not otherwise then his will is , least he be esteemed a lyar . And that as he saith , This is my body : This is my bloud : that it is so indeed . The which the Doctors ( by Gods assistance ) will declare in the next Conference , to shewe that he hath not onely power to establish his body in the holy Sacrament : but also that he hath willed it , and so hath done it . Artictles proposed by the Doctosr for the next Conference , and others following , according to the order of the said Articles . ALthough , following the order of Conference touching the Apostles Creed , they ought secondly to entreate of an other article ( as the Ministers themselues in the beginning of the Conference not onely accorded , but demaunded : offering the imprinted Articles of their confession , bearing date the 1564. yeare , from the first vnto the last , to be examined by the Doctors . ) Neuerthelesse , the Doctors seeing it will not be much from the purpose , after they haue intreated of the omnipotencie of God ( which extendeth to bee powerfull to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen , and in the Sacrament ) in continuing that matter , to enter into the probation of his will : they are content to shewe , that he hath not power onely , but that also he hath wil : and are consequently determined to refute all the blasphemies and heresies contained in their Supper , which are called reformed : to the end also they be not deemed to flye the list , touching the Supper and the Masse , as the Ministers haue reproached them . Neuerthelesse they protest , that their meaning is , after the conclusion of this matter , and resolution giuen , to returne to examine the wonderfull errors of the Ministers , which in number are many against the other articles of the Creed : which thing the Ministers ( vnwilling that the Doctors should pursue the order begun , do greatly feare , as one may see , and iudge : foreseeing , that in the next Conference , an other blasphemie would be shewed them , which the Church ( calling it selfe Reformed ) against the goodnesse of God , after Caluins doctrine ) maintaineth : to wit , that God worketh in the reprobate , the euill and sinne they commit : which is an execrable Atheisme , and no lesse then the deniall of the omnipotencie of God. And they that can read these Conferences ( continuing to the ende of the discussion of the Ministers errors , and of their religiō against all the articles of the Creed ) shall bee likewise abashed to vnderstand the absurdities and blasphemies issuing from the same . An other point there is yet , which inuiteth the Ministers to demaund tractation of the Supper : which is , that they haue the whole matter alreadie squared , by many of their Sect , who haue written of the same : And chiefly the great booke of Peter Martir will not faile them . Wherby they shal be furnished with I know not what infamous obiectiōs , & of some passages of the Fathers , broken & depraued , or euilly applied , to impugne in shew , the truth of the body in the Sacrament . But for defence of all other their errors , the Ministers are meanely armed : and their conscience doth sufficiently witnesse , that by the scripture , decision of generall Councells , and common accord of the writings of all the auncient Fathers , ( no apparance to the contrary ) they are conuinced and condemned of their errors against the said Creed . Now , to enter into the examination of the Supper of the Ministers , the Doctors do maintaine , that it is a prophane eating and drinking , not differing from common eating and drinking , but in that it is worse : that they abuse the holy institution of the Supper of Iesus , and pollute and defile such their banket with all impietie , & blasphemie . They also maintaine , that the Ministers do great iniurie to the Sacrament of Iesus Christ , falsly to attribute to such , their prophane and polluted banket , the name of Sacrament . And to the end that the proofe thereof be more cleare , the Doctors demaund of the Ministers , whether they receiue one common doctrine , receiued not only in the Church Catholique , but also almost in all Sects which are seperated from it : That is , that in the confection of the Sacraments , there be two essentiall and necessarie things : the matter ( or element ) and the word ? Secondly , what word , with the Element , is necessary to make a Sacrament : and namely , that which the Ministers do call the Sacrament of the Supper : and whether it behoueth to vse certaine words or no ? Thirdly , whether the word haue some power or effectuall working in the Sacrament ? & what , & whether it worke vpon something in the matter of the bread and wine ? Fourthly , whether by the same word , consecration bee made of the matter of the Sacrament or no ? Fiftly , whether by the word consecration , be not made of the matter ? to wit , how the same consecration is made ? and by what vertue the same is made ? Sixtly , whether besides the bread and wine , and the spirituall graces and benefites of Iesus Christ , the true body and bloud of Iesus Christ in their proper substance , and not in spirituall effect onely , be really receiued in the Supper ? And the Doctors do demand vpon this article , a plaine confession of the faith of the Ministers . They demaund further , whether in receiuing the bread , before taking of the wine , they receiue not by the eating of the bread , the body and bloud of Iesus Christ : or the body onely . Briefly , whether they admit that which Diuines call a Concomitance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ . They demaund also , whether the Supper ( ouer and besides the assurance which it giueth them of the participation they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ , for their redemption ) doth worke in them remission of sinnes ? Lastly they demaund , whether one receiueth any thing by the Supper , which he could not receiue without the Supper ? or whether without paine taking to go the Supper , or beeing present thereat , one may as well receiue the bodie and graces of Iesus Christ , as if hee were present at the Supper ? The Doctors will afterwards debate the other articles , contained in the Ministers last writing : for as much as the precedent demaunds ought to be first examined , as grounds of other articles proposed by the Ministers . Moreouer , after the confutation of the Supper of the Ministers , and the confirmation of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament , the Doctors by order , and without confusion , will clearly teach by the pure and expresse word of God , that the Masse was instituted and said by Iesus Christ , and that he commaunded his Apostles to say it : which thing , then following the ordinance of their Maister , they afterwards performed . That the Masse is a true sacrifice of the lawe Euangelique . That they which reiect the Masse , and admit in the Church no externall sacrifice , nor Priesthood , are without the true lawe , without true Religion , and therein worse then Idolaters themselues . That the Masse auaileth to obtaine remission of sinnes , fauour , and grace of God : and that it auaileth both for the quicke and the dead . That it is not an abuse in the Church , if the Priest in the Masse do communicate alone , when they that are present will not communicate . That they commit an horrible blasphemie , which call the adoration of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament , adoration of bread and wine , and falsly call such worship of the body of Iesus Christ , Idolatrie . To be short , that there is nothing in the Masse , at this day ordained and celebrated , which in it selfe is not good , and holy , and agreeable to the word of God. The Doctors do admonish the Ministers to answere to the demaunds here aboue written , to purpose , plainely , and by order . Sunday , 28. of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid . The Ministers answere to the writings of the Doctors , sent to thē by my Lord de Niuernois , the 28. day of Iuly , about seuen of the clocke in the euening , in the 1566. yeare . THe Doctors reproach the Ministers in the beginning of their writing , that in their former complaint against thē , they immitate the Donatists : wherein they verifie that , which the Ministers heretofore haue oftentimes shewed them : to wit , that the most part of their writings are imployed in repetitions , iniuries , scoffes , and inuectiues , rather then in good arguments and reasons : And they say , that the example of the Donatists is much more proper to bee applyed to them , then to the Ministers : for as much as the Donatists would restraine the name of the Church , ( which vniuersally comprehendeth all the elect and faithfull , that are , and euer were ) : and attribute the same to the sole company of them which follow their customes and errors : as the Doctors at this day approue not others for the Catholike and vniuersall Church , then they which follow the traditions and abuses of the Romane Church . Moreouer , the Donatists did persecute them which were contrarie to their doctrine , and vsed violence and all crueltie against them , that they could deuise : as Saint Augustine in many places doth recyte . Now what in time past hath bene the rage and furie , as well of the Doctors , as of their complices , Priests , and hypocriticall Monkes , against poore Christians , each one knoweth . And there is not he , which knoweth not now , both by their Sermons , writings , and conferences , what is their hate and spight against the children and seruants of God : and what pleasure should they haue to roote them out , were theyr power answerable to their will : whereby one may iudge , whether they or the Ministers come nearer to the likenesse and example of the Donatists . And whereas the Doctors adde , that the Ministers cease not to bee blasphemers , because they reiect and detest the name thereof . The Ministers answere , that the Doctors also leaue not to be false accusers , because they disauow , and denie the name . And that the effects do shewe of the one side and the other , to whom such crimes and names may appertaine , and be attributed . And touching that which the Doctors in the same article say , that it is blasphemy against the goodnesse of God , to impute vnto him , that hee is the author of vice , and of sinne . The Ministers confesse it : and do adde , that it is blasphemy also against his truth , to say , that with him there is yea , and nay : as doo they , which vnder a colour and false pretext to establish the omnipotencie of GGD , doo propose , that hee can cause one bodie at one selfe-same instant to bee in diuers places : to wit , that it is , and is not . Touching that which the Doctors afterwards say , that the Ministers erre in the grounds of Gods omnipotencie : for as much as they haue said , that he was almightie , because he doth whatsoeuer hee will : and that nothing can hinder , or with-hold the execution of his counsailes . The Ministers answere , that therein they haue followed Saint Augustines definition of the omnipotencie of God , in the 96. Chapter of his Enchiridion : where word for word hee thus saith : For other cause is hee not truly called omnipotent : but for as much as hee can do all whatsoeuer hee will : and that the effect of the will of the Almightie , is not hindered by the will and effect of any creature . In that they consequently impute to the Ministers , that they haue said the omnipotencie of God ought not to bee generally extended to all things which men may conceiue and imagine in their mindes . The Ministers say ( vnder the Doctors correction ) that they said not so : but that the almightinesse of God , ought not to be extended without any discretion or distinction , to all things generally , which men in their foolish phantasies might forge or imagine . Wherein to each one it may eftsoones appeare , how they curtall and falsifie the Ministers words and sentences , to haue meanes and colour for their slaunder . Afterwards , where they affirme that it is blasphemy to say that God can doo nothing against order : the Ministers on the contrary part maintaine , that to thinke and say that hee can doo ought which is not well ordered , is to blaspheme the wisedome , and eternall prouidence of God. The Doctors pretend in the article following , that one body to be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant , is not a thing derogatorie to the truth of God. The Ministers doo maintaine the contrarie , that it should be derogate both to his truth ; for as much as there should be in him , ( as is said ) yea and nay : and to his wisedome , for as much as in his words there should be disorder and confusion : and by consequence to his almightinesse , because in his deeds there should be imperfection . And they further say , that it should not be onely against the disposition and ordinary course of nature , ( as the Doctors faigne to haue thought and vnderstood ) but also against the eternall and vnchangeable will of our God. And as touching that which the Doctors , to proue that God can do something against order , do propose that he can chaunge and alter the order established in the world . The Ministers confesse the same : but they denie that in so dooing he should do any thing which were disordered . As ( for example ) all faithfull and Christian men doo beleeue , beleeue , that God will renew at the last the estate of the whole world : wherein there is nothing in the meane time which is not well ordained , perfect , and in all points accomplished . The Doctors in the following article , confound the distinction proposed by the Ministers , in their answere betweene the will of God manifested , and that he hath hidden in himselfe , and is equall to his power : as the Ministers before haue at large declared . And the Doctors do falsly presuppose touching the reuealed will of God ; taking that generally , which the Ministers haue graunted in some particulars onely : to wit , that God can doo more in ceraine things , then he hath declared to will : which none doubteth . As saith S. Augustine in the booke of perfect Iustice , that he cannot make a man to be perfect in this world , and sanctifie him in such sort , that there remaine no more in him any infirmitie or imperfection ; although hee hath neuer declared vnto vs by his word , that hee would do it : but contrariwise , that the flesh in all the regenerate will alwaies refist the spirit : so that all the time of their liues , they shall be in many points imperfect . But albeit in that , and some other like cases , God can do more then his will declareth , which he hath manifested to vs in his word : yet neuerthelesse can it not be said but that there be other cases , wherein God hath reuealed his will vnto vs , against which he can do or ordaine nothing . As ( for example ) hee hath declared vnto vs , that hee is one , that he is immutable , incomprehensible , wholly good , wholly iust , wholly perfect , and wholly true : Against all which things , ( which to vs are manifested and clearly proposed in his word ) impossible it is for him , euer to thinke , say , do , or ordaine . Now the thing proposed and debated by the Doctors , touching the being of one body , at one instant in diuers places , is comprised in that ranke , beeing ( as is said ) contrarie to the truth of God. Which shall serue for answere to the Doctors slaunders , and to all that they haue proposed in this article . Likewise in an other following article , where they say that God not onely can , but will also cause , that one body occupie diuers places at one selfe-same time . That shall be yet more impossible for them to proue , then the power aforesaid , for which they haue hitherto so much trauelled in vaine . In their definition of one bodye in the Article following , they contradict themselues , when they say that the measures are essentiall vnto it : and that it may neuerthelesse bee incircumscript : for if it bee needfull that the dimensions whereof it is composed , bee finite ; of necessitie it followeth therevpon , that then it is finite , limited , and circumscript . To that which they afterwards say , that the reason which the Ministers haue taken of the Creed , and alledged to proue that the body of Iesus Christ is in heauen in a place certaine , is friuolous . The Ministers say ; that the Doctors shewe therein what reuerence they beare to the word of GOD , and his spirite , who hath reuealed the same vnto vs , and to the Apostles , which declare them vnto vs. To iustifie Gracian and the Canon , which the Ministers alledge of S. Augustine , by which they proue that the bodie of Christ must necessarily be in a place certaine , the Ministers bring yet for more ample confirmation , the 4. booke and 10. distinction of the Maister of the Sentences : who recyting the selfe-same passage of S. Augustine , vseth the verbe [ Oportet ] and not [ Potest ] . As touching that of Iustine which the Doctors alledge , to proue the myracles which were then done ; that Iesus Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples , the gates being shut : and that hee walked vpon the waters , were done in his person . The Ministers are amazed how the Doctors doo yet repeate the same . For as much as the said Iustine ( as they haue before beene answered ) expresly saith : that when the said myracles were done , there was no chaunge of the body of Iesus Christ : which thing , had the myracles bene done in his person , had bene necessarie . In the meane time , the Ministers confesse ( as they haue done often ) that the cause of the said myracles , and the diuine power whence they proceeded , abode in Iesus Christ . As when hee healed the diseased which touched him : and did the other myracles recyted in the Euangelicall Histories : the which were done by him , but not in him , but in the person of them that we●● healed . And there is great difference betweene such myracles , and those of his transfiguration , and resurrection , which were wrought by his onely power , and in his proper person . Vpon the importunate repetition which the Doctors make , as well of the meanes of the birth of our Lord Iesus Christ , as of the word Aphantos : The Ministers for sparing of time , and not troubling the readers , send them back to their former answeres . The Ministers much maruel that the Doctors to proue their pretended penetration of two bodies , and of their measures , wil ground their proofe and principal argument vpon the proper signification of the terme [ Penetrer ] . For be it so , that they will by this French word interpret the Greeke word Dierchestas , or the Latine word Penetrare . It shall bee euer impossible to proue their pretence . And as it is also in the Acts of the Apostles , Chap. 12. 10. It is said of the Angell and S. Peter that they passed the first and second watch . And in S. Luke . 4. 30. But they passed through the middest of them , and departed . And in S. Io. 4. 4. Now it behoued him to passe by Samaria . In all which passages the Doctors shall not find , that the word Dierchestai ( in the said passages alledged ) can bee any way applied to the penetration of dimensions . And no more shall they proue that the word [ Penetrare ] which the old Translator hath vsed in the 2. Tymo . 3. can be reduced to their said penetration . The Ministers do adde , that the Doctors ought not to hold it more straunge , that Iesus Christ ascending into heauen in his finite and limited body , an opening were made for his entrance therin : then when he descendeth betweene the hands of the Priests singing their Masses : For then ( as saith S. Gregorie ) the heauens do open to giue him passage . Although after their imagination , his body is then seperated from it measures and dimensions . The Doctors should haue contented themselues with the Ministers answer vpon the similitude & word [ Camell ] . For first , they can no wayes proue , that that saying of Iesus Christ vpon the end of that speech , ought else-where to be applied , then to the nearest member of the same : where speech is made of the conu●sion and sauing of a rich man. For the Pronowne demonstratiue [ Hoc ] doth clearly shewe it : Afterwards , although that the generall proposition in the end and conclusion of the said sentence ( where it is said that all things are possible to God ) extendeth ( as the Doctors will haue it ) to the Camell , as well as the rich man : yet rightly to apply the two patts of the comparison , it behoueth they confesse , that as the change is necessary for the rich man to be saued : so is it also for the body of the Camel , to cause it passe through the eye of a needle . Howsoeuer that might in some sort be done , the Doctors shal not proue , nor euer thence conclude , that two bodies can the one pierce the other . For as much as the Doctors by their thrisestrong & powerfull arguments haue not bene able to conclude any of all their absurdities , nor by force of their reasons to constraine the Ministers to confesse the same : they do nought else but exclaime , Blasphemy , Blasphemy ; which is the last recourse of all persons , who despite and gnash the teeth against the truth , and them that maintain it , when they cannot ouercome them . Would the Ministers subscribe to the errors end abuses of the said Doctors , they should bee good and Catholike people : but because they gainsay and reproue them , they be ( in their opinion ) heretikes , seducers , blasphemers , and Atheists : and in so great horror doo the Doctors hold them , that it is maruel they pull not ( like Caiphas ) their horned caps and hoods in peeces , in detestation of the word of God , proposed and defended by the said Ministers , and condemned as blasphemy by the Doctors . The Doctors haue dissembled the passage of the scripture alledged by the Ministers , to proue that faith is a worke of God , which he bringeth forth in the heart of the faithfull , when he will worke his regeneration : and incidently speake of free will , and the merit of workes . Wherevnto the Ministers are well resolued to answere ; and by the grace of God , to maintaine the truth of these two points , against the enemies of his glorie , when they shall be proposed to be debated and discussed . And for the ioy which they receiue ( say they ) that the Ministers haue confessed , they haue not read in any auncient Author and expresse termes , that God cannot cause one selfe-same body to bee in diuers places at one instant : they haue no great cause thereof to reioyce : for albeit the said Fathers haue not in expresse termes said it : yet in termes equiualent , in infinite places haue they said and written the same . A short Resolution of all the Answeres and discourse which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the Conference which they haue had with the Doctors . THe craft and subtiltie of Sathan from the beginning of the world hath alwayes beene , to transforme himfelfe into an Angell of light , and to search some faire pretext , to shrowd and disguise himselfe , and vnder that shadowe , to insinuate himselfe into the Church of GOD , and there to broach his lyes and trumperies . As we all see , that vnder pretence to honour God , he hath established all the Idolatrie which hath euer beene in the worlde : referring the adoration of Images , the Inuocation and intercession of Saintes , the worshipping of Reliques , and other lyke impieties to the honour of God , and perswading the ignorant that all that was done to aduance the same . Lykewise vnder pretext of his seruice , hath he brought in all the traditions and inuentions of men , and chaunged with the time , the true and lawfull seruice of God ( which consisteth in the obedience of his holy will , declared vnto vs in his lawe and word ) into the obseruation of theyr commaundements , and theyr inuented ceremonies . Vnder shadowe and colour of the Sacraments ordained by God , for the confirmation , exercise and nourishing of the faith of the Church , there hath crept in the Masse : which is not only the ruine and totall subuersion of the Supper : but also an abolishment of all the benefite of Iesus Christ : and consequently of the faith and all true Religion . Vnder colour and shadowe of holinesse , and of chaste , shamefaste , and honest conuersation , which is chiefly required in the Ministers and Pastors of the Church , he hath established single life , and taken away from them the libertie of marriage : which hath bene the occasion of all filthinesse , and of infamous , stinking , and execrable whoredomes and luxuritie , which is seene in the Papacie . Vnder the shadowe of prayers , which men are commaunded to make one for an other : and of Charitie , whereby we are bound to succour all the needie poore : hath hee brought in all the suffrages which men sing for the dead , the merites and workes of supererogation , and other lyke abhominations . Vnder colour of the Saboth , which God had chosen and deputed to the sanctification of his holy name , to the contemplation of his workes , in the remembrance and preaching of his benefites and fauours . He hath set forth an infinite number of prophane Feastes , in which the name of God is blasphemed , his ordinance despised , his couenant violated . But who can recount the wickednesse and abhominations which are committed in these dayes ? Vnder pretext of the keyes and discipline of the Church , the administration and vse whereof was giuen to the Ministers lawfully called , for a meane to conserue the doctrine in it puritie , and keepe and entertaine good order in the Church , and to hinder the slaunders which by the insolencie of some might happen : hath hee established a tyrannie , whence is proceeded the whole dissipation of the Church of God , the corruption of all estates : and the diminishing of the lawfull authoritie which God hath giuen to Kings , Princes , and Magistrates . Some whereof , haue bene wholly spoyled , as well of theyr goods , as dignities , by the Pope , and the Bishops : and others so weakened , that they are in many places constrained to bowe the necke , and submit themselues to theyr yoake and puissance . To be short , this may be noted and obserued in all the purposes and actions of the diuell : that as he is a Serpent , so hath hee alwayes ramped , and secretly crept ( as it were ) vnder the leaues and appearance of some pietie , into the house of God , to place therein , his pretended disorder , confusion and ruine . And we see , that now continuing and following his wonted practises , hee setteth foorth the omnipotencie of God ( which to all the world is a plausible and fauourable tytle ) to the ende , that vnder the lustre and brightnesse of such an occasion , hee might dazell the eyes of the ignorant , and hold them still in the opinion and perswasion of theyr errorus ; which haue no foundation in the word of God. The Ministers beseech the Readers , and all those that haue the feare of God , or any zeale of his honour , to be wise , and attentiue , to weigh and discouer the sayd subtilties and practises of the Diuell : and not to beleeue all spirites before they haue well sounded and tryed them : and that they also approue not all the things , which vnder the name of God , may be proposed vnto them ; and which at the first , may seeme to tende and appertaine to his honour and glorie : but that they remember the Apostles admonition , to try the spirites : and that they verie carefully regarde the ende , and scope of those , which propose vnto them such doctrine . And if there be any thing wherin heed must be taken of such cosonages and fraudes , which are layd to surprise the simple ; it is needfull , chiefly in this matter of the Omnipotency of God : whereof is the present question . For the Ministers do confesse , that it ought to be knowne , beleeued , and vniuersally adored of all creatures , in heauen and in earth . Moreouer they confesse , that the faithfull cannot haue a better foundation , nor better rampert to leane vnto , and sustaine themselues against all the endeuours , as well of the diuel , the world , and their other enemies : as also ( to be short ) of all the temptations wherewith they might bee assayled and befieged . This Omnipotency ( they confesse ) is the hinge of the axeltree ( as it were ) wherevpon the world , with all it parts is turned and sustained . They confesse moreouer , that the same Omnipotency is not only venerable to the Angels , and blessed spirits in heauen , and to the elect and Saints vpon earth : but also terrible to the reprobates and diuels in hell . So that the one doth willingly embrace and submit themselues vnto it : and the others are constrained to bow vnder it , and yeeld vnto and obey the same . Lastly they confesse , that it is infinite , and of incomprehensible greatnesse , to all creatures , as the wisedome , goodnesse , Iustice , truth , and the other vertues and proprieties of our God. This is that which the Ministers beleeue and confesse of the Omnipotency of God : and that which they thinke , all Christians ought thereof to beleeue and hold . Now to make good vse of this Almightinesse , and to apply it as is meete : we must iudge thereof , according to his will : and of his will , according to his word : So that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God , all things good and euill , ordered and disordered , agreeable and contrary to his nature , false and true : But to well rule and order the thoughts and cogitations of Gods Omnipotencie , presenting themselues in our hearts : we must ( for our part ) measure the same according to his holy will : and beleeue that it cannot be limitted , letted nor hindred by any other will or power , which wil or may be opposite vnto it . Which thing S. Augustine well teacheth in many places ; as in the fift booke and 10. Chapter of the Cittie of God : where speaking of God , hee saith : That he is called almightie : because he doth all whatsoeuer he will , and suffereth nothing if he will it not . Also in the seuenth Chapter of the 21. booke . For no other reason but this onely , is he called Almightie : that he can do all whatsoeuer he will doo . Also in the first Chapter of the booke De Symbolo ad Catec : Our God ( saith he ) doth all that which he will do : and that is his Almightinesse . Also in the 119. Sermon De tempore ; He is Almightie , to do all things that he will do , and ordaineth to be done . These sentences , and many other lyke , found in the writings of that good Father , and other Auncients , do clearly teach vs , the maner how we may well make profit of the faith we haue of the omnipotency of God : That is in bringing vs backe to his will , and iudging of his will , by his word , and not by the false imaginations which therof we may conceiue in our minds : or that others would propose vnto vs : As did Sathan to Iesus Christ , whom he would haue induced to cast downe himselfe headlong , vnder a vaine trust of helpe from the omnipotencie of God. Euen so also , the Monarchians , who vnder colour and pretext of Gods omnipotencie , which of some myracles they gathered , would proue and establish their heresies , and take away the personall distinction which is betweene the Father and the sonne , saying : That God being Almightie , could therefore make himselfe Father and sonne together . Of the Anabaptists in these last times , is it also found , that for a vaine assurance , which they put in the omnipotency of God , hoping he could nourish them , as he did the byrds , would not labour . Many such lyke more great inconueniences may happen to all those , that hauing such wandering and stragling thoughts of the Omnipotency of God , wil not restraine nor reduce them to his will. And this we see is besalue the Doctors : who willing to apprehend and measure the omnipotencie of God by their owne imaginations , rather then by his will and word , are ( as saith S. Paul ) become vaine in their imagination , and their foolish heart is filled with darknesse . And willing to behold the Maiestie of God out of the limits and bounds which hee had shewed them in his word , haue bene intrapped and ouerwhelmed of his glorie . And that is befalne them , which in their resolution , they themselues haue touched : to wit , that for not hauing taken the word of God for their guide , nor followed the steppes and pathes of his holy spirit , they do erre from the faith : which ( contrarie to that which the Doctors doo thinke ) is not destroyed nor ouerthrowne by the consideration of the creatures and workes of God ( which are as a myrror of his glorie and diuinitie ) : but in as much as by them wee were turned away from the promises of God : by the which we are assured of his will , and almightinesse ; which doth warrant and assure vs of the effects , and accomplishment of this holy will. Which may bee seene and clearly obserued in them that were sent by Moyses to espie out and know the Land of the Cananites . Two of which , ( namely Iosua and Caleb ) could neuer be withdrawne from the trust they had in theyr God. For as much as turning their mindes from the consideration of all things which could make them doubt thereof , ( as of the Fortresse and munition of Cities , the number , force , weapons , and experience of the countrie Inhabitants ) they stayed their minds in the sole consideration of the promises which God had made vnto thē . Cōtrariwise , the others forgetting the same promises , & nought cōsidering , but that which they saw before their eyes , they fell , and caused all the people to fall with them , into that cursed and damnable infidelitie ▪ for which they were so grieueuously punished in the wildernesse , and excluded from enterance therevnto , and enioying of that thing , which God had promised to theyr Fathers . And in the example of Abrahā , whose faith abode firme and stable , by the consideration chiefly of the promise and will of God , as S. Paul declareth . So that the consideration of Gods Almightinesse , came after , to maintaine & second that which he had of the promise . One may see by these examples , what daunger there is , to depart and draw backe , although neuer so litle , from the word of God : by which we are guided to the knowledge of his will. And by the knowledge of his will , conducted to the consideration and iudgement , which we ought to make and haue of his Almightinesse . For want whereof , the Doctors are fallen into errors and raylings , which they propose to the Ministers by their writing and conclusion of their resolution . That is to say : that the body of Iesus Christ may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant : which is against the faith we ought to haue , and constantly retaine of the wisedome , prouidence , and euerlasting truth of our God : and against that likewise , which wee ought to haue and keepe of our Lords true humanitie . And that which they first alledge of S. Ierome against Vigilantius , nought serueth for the proofe and confirmation of their error . Where no other thing he saith : but that the soules of the Saints are not inclosed in a certaine prison ( as dreamed Vigilantius ) but do follow the Lambe whithersoeuer he goeth . Nor that which they alledge of Saint Augustine in the booke which he made of the pure care of the dead . For in that booke hee himselfe confesseth , that he is incertaine of that which the Doctors doo propose , and are assured . And nomore doo the three authorities they alledge , of Saint Iohn Chrisostome , Saint Ambrose , and Saint Augustine : whose sentences ought to be taken , and vnder stood of the Sacrament , and not of the thing signified by the Sacrament : As in the next conference the Ministers well hope to shew . The Ministers do much maruel , that the Doctors so draw backe , and will not ( but vnwillingly ) enter into conference for defence of their Masse : and to gainsay the Supper celebrated in the reformed Churches . For seeing they hold it for the principall foundation of theyr Religion : and propose the same for a meane of saluation to the whole world : ( That they be not seene seducers , nor ouer credulous to beleeue or teach an incertaine and vnassured thing ) : they should alwayes be prouided and furnished with reasons , to the end they might approue , and readily defend that which they beleeue and say : and might conuince them also , that would deny the same : But in this , it appeareth to proceed of of an euill conscience , which being timerous and fearefull , flyeth alwaies the combat , and the light . It is long time since the Ministers haue importuned them to enter into the deciding and conference of these two points , and to bring them thervnto , they haue proposed vnto them , that it was the end for which the conference was appointed : which Madame de Buillon , ( in whose fauour it was made ) once or twise hath publikely required : and that they also had often protested , that they were not for other ende assembled with the Doctors , then to satisfie therein the said Lady of Buillon : and not to be examined by them , as they do falsly pretend . For the Ministers haue no desire to be examined of such Doctors , being Priests : Ioyned , that to be taught in the points of religion , and to know the truth , they would not choose such Maisters , nor repaire vnto them , and frequent theyr schooles for that purpose . And yet notwithstanding all the foresayd remonstrances often made and repeated by the Ministers , the Doctors haue alwayes vntill now , deferred to conferre of the foresaid points : awayting ( as it is likely ) that some occasion should be offered , to breake off , and determine the sayd conference , before they had begunne to speak thereof . Albeit , had they any zeale to th● honour of God , and to the edification of his Church , they should by all meanes haue procured that the sayd two points should haue beene fully cleared and resolued : be it that they would confirme and strengthen them of their part : or withdraw ( as they pretend ) those of our side from their errors . For it is not much needfull hereafter to dispute of the Saints , of Purgatory , Pilgrigrimages , and other like points : In regard of which , the most part of the world is at this day cleared . By meanes whereof , as well the Doctors , as the Ministers , ought chiefly to insist vpon these two points , and to endeuour ( with them ) to make them cleare and to be vnderstood of each one , and not to vse Sophistries and cauils to make them obscure , and retaine thereby the simple in their ignorance : as the Doctors endeuour to do . Who ( hauing left of set purpose the Theses & Articles proposed to them by the Ministers , with order & good methode in their last answeres ) do confusedly propose certaine questions culled out of their schoole diuinitie : euer more and more to fold vp this matter : And in so doing they withstand ( as euer hitherto they haue done ) what so , and so often they haue protested : to wit , that they would examine the confession of the reformed Churches : whereof notwithstanding , they haue not handled one only point in all the conference . Wherein they haue shewed , and yet plainly do shewe , the distrust they haue to be able to withstand so cleare and apparant trueth ; as that which is proposed in the saide confession . Answeres to the Preface of the Doctors Questions . THe Doctors , before they propose their Questions , in their Preface do call the Supper celebrated in the refor-Churches , a prophane and polluted banquet . And in so saying , they neither shame , nor feare , first to blaspheme Iesus Christ , who instituted the same , and is the authour therof : and then to condemne the Apostles of Impietie , which so haue celebrated and taught it : together with all the auncient Churches which followed and obserued ( whiles it reremained in it puritie ) the forme and maner which the Euangelists and Apostles had taught , and left by their writings . But the Ministers would willingly demaund of the Lordes our Maisters , that they particularly note vnto them , wherein they can violate the institution & ordinance of Iesus Christ , and leaue his example , and that of his Apostles in the celebration of the Supper ? For when they will celebrate the same , they first assemble the whole Church together : as Iesus Christ did his Apostles and Disciples : where after their publike confession of sinnes , and vnderstandingly made in the name of all , they make a Sermon to the people : wherein according to the grace and power which God hath giuen them , they declare the causes , and occasions , the end , the vse , the points and effects of the holy Supper : to lift vp the hearts of the people to the consideration of the incomprehensible loue which the Father hath shewed towards his Church , when in fauour thereof , and for the saluation of the same , he hath not spared his owne sonne , but exposed him to a cruell and cursed death : to the end , that each one calling to minde so great a grace and mercie , be kindled and inflamed in the loue of God : and tremble at the ingratitudes and rebellious offences and sinnes which he hath committed against his Maiestie : and that with the sorrow and displeasure he hath for the same , he cast himselfe betweene the armes of his sonne , stretched out vpon the Crosse , to haue thereof a generall and full abolition . And that euen so , with such a faith and repentance hee be prepared to present himselfe worthily at the table of the Lord , and to receiue the good things which are there administred . The Sermon ended , the Minister recyteth with an high and audible voyce , and his face turned towards the people , the words of the institution and ordinance of the Supper , together with a briefe and short declaration of the same . That done , he denounceth to all those , not fully instructed and Catechised , that they depart : and to all them which are excommunicated , or attainted with some sinnes or scandalous crimes ( whereof they haue made no satisfaction to the Church ) that they abstaine therefrom , and pollute not the table of the Lord. After that , the Minister goeth to the table : where hauing taken the bread , and giuen thankes to God , he breaketh it , and giueth it to the people there assembled . And also presently the Cup to all them that communicate : which being ended , he giueth thankes to God , and dismisseth the people . The Ministers , following in all these things the example and rule , which Iesus Christ hath giuen them , cannot imagine wherevpon the Doctors haue grounded that their saying of the Supper , calling it a prophane and polluted banquet . And they cannot perceiue , what they could or would reproue in all theyr action : vnlesse peraduenture they will taxe them for not hauing Aulbes , stoles , fanets , Crosses , holy water , banners , Chisibles , tunicles , lights , Incense , belles , singing in a straunge and vnknowne language , Musicke , and Organes , holy napkins , Aultars , Clearkes to answere : Et cum spiritu tuo , nor words addressed to the bread and wine ( which haue no eares ) after the maner of Inchanters , nor the Crosse & signes , nor any eleuation of the bread and wine , to cause them to be adored : nor other like aperies of mans inuentiō , and drawne part from Iudaisme , and part from Paganisme . The obseruation of which things the Ministers would make great conscience of : because they be but Idolatries and superstitions , whereby the puritie & integritie of Christian Religion , is wholly wasted and corrupted . Answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper . FOr answere to the first question , the Ministers say ; that the Sacrament in perfection considered , consisteth in three things . One whereof is the Element , which Ireneus calleth a thing earthy : the other , the thing signified ; called by the same author , a thing heauenly . And the third is the word , by which the earthy thing is deputed to signifie the heauenly , and assureth them of the exhibition thereof , that with faith do present themselues to receiue it . For answere to the second question , the Ministers say ; that the ordinance of God , contained in his word , and declared by his Minister , according to his commandement , is this word word necessary with the E●ment , to constitute the Sacrament : and not the onely lowe and secret pronunciation of certaine vnkowne words , addressed to the elements , nor any vertue which is hidden in the same . For answere to the third question , the Ministers say , that by the word aforesaid the signes bee chaunged , not as touching the nature : or as touching the substance : but as touching the vse onely : and that only during the action , whervnto they serue . For answere to the fourth question , the Ministers say , that the bread and wine which before the action of the Supper were common , are consecrated in the Supper : that is to say , deputed by the said word and ordinance of God , declared by the Ministers , to a holy and sacred vse : which is , to represent and exhibit the things by them signified . The answere to the fourth question sufficeth for the fift . For answere to the sixt question , the Ministers say , that the faithfull receiue not onely in the Supper , the gifts and graces of Iesus Christ , ( as his tighteousnesse , life , and the other fruites of his sacrifice ) but that they also receiue and possesse himselfe : and are made one with him , no lesse truly and straightly , then the members are conioyned to the head . And they say moreouer , that this coniunction is the spring and meane of all the benefites , which flowe from the grace of God , by him into vs : but they adde , that this reception must bee wholly attributed to the free operation of the holy Ghost , which maketh vs fit and capable to knowe our Lord Iesus Christ , with all his vertues and properties : and in knowing him , to trust in him : and in reposing our trust in him , to possesse and wholly enioy him . For answere to the seuenth question , the Ministers say , that they reiect and reproue the word Concomitance , and more also the thing thereby signified : for as much as that hath beene the cause , for which the common people hath bene depriued and excluded from one of the essentiall parts of the Sacrament : namely , from the participation of the Cuppe . And they say , that it is an attempt against the diuine Maiestie , to seperate what the sonne of God hath ioyned together : and to deny to some of his members , that which he hath willed and commaunded to be common to all . Ioyned , that the reason of the Sacrament requireth it : which was instituted for our spirituall nourishment . The which ( as doth the corporall ) consisteth in drinke & meate . To the ende then , that there be some correspondency betweene them two , it behoueth , that as we are fed with the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified : So be we also watered with his blood shead , for the remission of sinnes . To be short , seeing that the Supper was chiefly instituted to shewe foorth the Lords death : and that in his death , his blood was seperated from his bodie : Meete it is , that the bread and wine be there administred , to represent the one and the other , and more clearly to propose vnto vs , all the mistery of the death of Iesus Christ . For answere to the eight question , the Ministers do acknowledge no other cause , nor meane of remission of sinnes , then the grace of God , the blood of Iesus Christ , and faith ; whereby the effect of Gods grace , and the fruit of the death of Iesus Christ are applied vnto vs. For answere to the ninth question , the Ministers do say : that the faithfull comming to the Supper , do not come thither to receiue there a new Iesus Christ , with whom they had not bene formerly conioyned : nor a new righteousnes , which had not bene communicated vnto them . And they adde , that if some one did present himselfe there without faith , ( for want whereof he should not be vnited , incorporated and engraffed into Iesus Christ , to bee partaker of his righteousnes , life , and all other his gifts and blessings ) : that the holy Supper in that case , should be as vnprofitable to him , as is meate vnptofitable to a dead man. But , if liuing by the meanes aforesayd ( namely the grace of God , the blood of Iesus Christ , and faith ) he present himselfe there in such an estate : that then the graces of God be multiplied , increased , and more and more confirmed in him . So that Circumcision , brought not vnto Abraham a new righteousnesse : but sealed and ratified that , which by the promise was communicated before vnto him . Which the faithfull , knowing in what degree of vertue they bee , yet ought they not to contemne the holy Supper , nor any way to abstaine from it , when occasion and meanes serue them to be there : Considering , that they cannot be so promoted nor aduaunced in the knowledge and feare of God , and in the faith of his promises , that they may not yet growe and profit ( in what estate soeuer they be ) by the meanes which God hath therefore left and ordained in his Church . And impossible it is , for a man hauing true faith in his heart , to do otherwise ; seeing hee hath the commoditie thereof : For as much as the nature of faith is not to apprehend the promises of God onely : but also to engender , and bring forth in the heart of the faithfull , a will to obey him , and keep his commaundements and ordinances . For answere to the first Article which the Doctors propose touching their Masse , the Ministers say : that the Doctors do openly blaspheme Iesus Christ , to authorise with his name , and by his example , such an abhomination . And that they also mocke the Church & the world , in preaching and writing such Impieties . For answere to the second Article of the Masse , the Ministers say : that there is in the Church no other sacrifice , by which men are reconciled to God , and which maketh him mercifull and fauourable towards them ( by appeasing his wrath ) then that onely and alone , which Iesus Christ hath once offered vpō the Crosse to his Father . The vertue wherof being eternall , to sanctifie all beleeuers , and to obtain vnto them for euer , remission and abolishment of sinnes : there is no need of any other , nor that which he hath once offered , be euer reiterate . For answere to the third Article , the Ministers say : that they which approue the Masse , and other Priesthood , then that of Iesus Christ ; and wil establish for remission of sinnes an other sacrifice , then that he himselfe , with his body vpon the Crosse offered , are Antichrists : and abolish ( as much as in them lyeth ) all the vertue and fruite of the death & sacrifice of the sonne of God. For answere to the fourth Article , the Ministers do alledge , what S. Paul writeth , to wit : That where remission is , there is no more offering for sinne . Now so it is , that by the death of Iesus Christ , remission hath bene obtained for vs : as by infinit passages of scripture appeareth . It followeth then , that there is no more oblation for sin , neither in the Masse , nor out of the Masse . And if there be none for the liuing , lesse is there for the dead . For answere to the fift , the Ministers maintaine , that the Communion is of the essence of the Supper , as S. Paul sheweth in the first of the Corinthians , 10. and 11. Chapters . And as it is carried by the Cannon it selfe , and other things about the Masse . For answere to the sixt , the Ministers say three things : First , that the Popish Masse is no Sacrament : then that the body of Iesus Christ is not there . And therof conclude , that then the bread and wine there remaining , ought not to be adored : which being creatures cannot be adored , but that they which adore them be Idolators . For answere to the seuenth and last Article , the Ministers say contrary to the Doctors , that there is not any thing in the Masse , which is not either directly , or indirectly contrary to the word of God. The Ministers for conclusion admonish the Doctors , & entreat them , not to depart ( as they haue formerly done ) out of the bounds of the matter , now proposed for disputation . To the end , that these two points which are now in debate betweene them , may be wholly and perfectly decyded , to the content and edification of them that shall reade the Acts of this conference . Tuesday the 30. of Iuly , in the yeare aforesaid . A briefe Reply of the Doctors , against the last Answer of the Ministers to them , sent by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois , the first of August , about seuen or eight of the clocke in the euening . 1566. THe Doctors , after their resolution giuen vpon the Artice of Gods Omnipotency , were not determined to returne any more therevnto : as hauing sufficiently handled that matter . But the horrour they haue of the new blasphemies , contained in the last writing of the Ministers , hath incyted them ( contrary to their purpose ) although not to reply , at the least to admonish the Ministers and the reader of this present Conference , of the said execrable blasphemies : which they are constrained to confesse , that will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar : but dare therby deny the power of God himself . The consideration wherof ( as the Doctors hope ) wil not only cōfirme the Catholikes in the faith of the said article : but also ( by Gods assistance ) wil bring back many which are strayed , separating themselues from the Church Catholike : whē they shall vnderstand the detestable errors & blasphemies which do follow the contradiction of the reall presence of the body and bloud of our Lord in the Sacrament . Which also should serue for the conuersion of the Ministers themselues : would they without passiō examine the reasons & acts which haue bene proposed vnto them , touching the power of God : and sincerely iudge therof : as resisting the holy spirit , in stead of acknowledging their errors , they are turned to all maner of reproach and iniury against them , which of good will would admonish them ; and haue taxed them , that they tended not but to roote them out . Which thing the Doctors neuer minded : and desire not but the saluation of the Ministers , & of all those that are seperated from the true Catholike Church . Of which , their preachings shall beare witnesse : wherein they ordinarily exhort the people to pray vnto God for them . True it is , that they require the extirpatiō of the kingdome of Sathan ▪ and the rooting out of all heresies and peruerse doctrine , rather by the preaching of Gods word , then by all other meanes . And they wonder why the Ministers are so pricked against them in their two last answeres : seeing they haue giuen them no occasion thereof , but haue taken it lightly , for no other reason , but because the Doctors haue written , that many propositions set forth by the Ministers , contained blasphemies , which they should content themselues to denie , or to proue that there are none , and leaue the iudgement thereof to the readers : without entering into such hotte coller , seeing they professe to bee so much mortified , patient , and modest , that albeit one should reproach them , they would not reproach againe . They should also well remember the faire tytles with which they honour the Catholique doctrine : as with the name of superstition , Idolatrie , impietie , abhomination , and many other like : yea not sparing the persons : calling the Popes , Bishops , & Priests , Antichrists , & Ministers of Sathan : against which reproaches , the Doctors content themselues to shewe by the word of God , when occasion serueth , that such tytles agree neither with the persons , nor yet the doctrine by them preached . Now although that the Ministers and their furie deserue a sharpe reply , yet to mittigate their so inflamed hearts , the Doctors will not answere to the iniuries which touch their persons and estates : referring the whole to the iudgement of the vnpassionate readers : and will only touch the points which concerne the doctrine . First , the Ministers do great wrong to the Doctors and their like , in comparing them to Donatists , and falsly to impute vnto them , that they tie the Church in a certaine place , ( as did the Donatists ) which placed it onely in Affrike . For it is manifest to all , that the Doctors know not , nor confesse any other Church , then the Catholique : which ( as it name importeth ) hath bene visible since the Apostles time , and hath her spreading through the world , in what region , country , or place soeuer , the faithfull beleeuing in Iesus Christ are . Although they reuerence the Church of Rome , as chiefe and principall among others : as Ireneus , Tertullian , S. Ciprian , S. Augustine , and other the auncient Fathers , haue giuen it this honour , to confesse it to be principall and mother ( as it were ) of other Churches ; with more iust reason , may such obiection be retorted against the Ministers : who cannot say their Church to be Catholike : hauing taken it beginning in our time , seene & known at Geneua , founded vpō the priuate opinion of one man : without that in former time one could shewe such opinion to haue beene holden in any Nation whatsoeuer . Which thing shall be handled in it order , when they shall examine the errors by the Ministers maintained against this Article ; I beleeue the holy Catholique Church . Moreouer , the Ministers should not haue alledged the violence , crueltie , and furie of the Donatists , against the Catholiques : for such example doth condemne them , and their like . But because it doth not but bring fresh to memorie the passed euils , which Fraunce hath endured by the instigation of the Ministers , for feare to incyte them further to say new iniuries : the Doctors will not dwell long vpon this matter . Neuerthelesse , they shewe vnto the Ministers , that the Donatists reproached the Catholiques , that they endured persecution by them , and that to roote them out , they sollicited the Emperours and Magistrates euen as the Ministers doo blame the Doctors . Who confesse : first to desire the conuersion of all Sects , and in case they will not come to repentance , that the Magistrates by good and holy lawes may execute such punishment therefore , as God bee not so outragiously blasphemed , and the people grieued . And therein they follow the doctrine of Saint Augustine , expressed in an Epistle , sent Advincentin contra Donatistas . Where he confesseth , that the Catholiques did persecute the Donatists : and that contrariwise the Donatists also afflicted the Catholiques : but that the persecutions were different . That those of the Catholiques were not executed but by the Magistrate , and came of charitie , to roote out the euill , which hindred the peace and tranquilitie publike . And contrariwise , the persecution by the Donatists , was made without authoritie of the Magistrate , and proceeded of malice : which pretended but mischiefe and ruine : and S. Augustine declareth that the first was good , and of God : and the second wicked , and by inspiration of Sathan . And to this purpose he bringeth many excellent examples of holy scripture . This hath bene somewhat largely handled , to purge the Doctors of the slaunder imposed on them by the Ministers : where they reproach them , that in their preachings , writings , and conferences , they search but onely to roote out the Ministers : whom they haue alwayes persecuted . And they interpret the same as therefore proceeding from a particular hate of the Doctors against them : and not of charitie , and zeale of truth , and of the conuersion , as well of the Ministers , as of those which are seduced and abused by them . The Doctors therein call God to witnesse , and doo protest the contrarie , and pray the Ministers to beleeue them , attending therevpon the iudgement of God , who is the onely searcher of the hearts and affections of men . As touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie , because he can do whatsoeuer he will , had they listed to read the writings of Saint Thomas ( whose doctrine they disdaine ) well had they knowne , that this reason is no reason . Because the Angels , and they which are blessed , conforming themselues alwayes to the will of God , can doo all things that they will doo : and there is no creature which can hinder the effect of theyr will , and yet are they not almightie . And as touching the saying of S. Augustine , in taking it so as the Ministers do take it ; The reason of Gods omnipotencie is ouer-weake and false . But to haue the true vnderstanding of this sentence , it behoueth to consider , that there is a difference betweene the actuall will of God , and the power of will. For God can wil many things which he willeth not , nor euer will. And euen so can he will more then he actually willeth : whereby they ought rather to measure his omnipotencie , then to measure it according to his actuall will. And thus must be interpreted the text of S. Augustine , that the almightinesse extendeth to all things which he can will , and not according to that he actually willeth . And S. Augustine is cyted by the Ministers , being destitute of testimonie of scripture , albeit they vaunted in their former answere , to haue learned this reason by the scriptures . In the article following , the Ministers by slaunder doo falsly taxe the Doctors , to haue cut off some words of theyr last writing : which will not be found to bee true . For the text of the Doctors beareth these words . It is not to bee doubted , but that aboue all conceit and imagination of humane spirit , the power of God is great , infinite , and incomprehensible . Where it clearly appeareth , that the Doctors speake generally of all conceit and imagination , without any exception thereof , be it of wisedome or folly . Therfore was it not needfull to expresse the words of the Ministers , seeing that the Doctors spake generally . And that which goeth before doth shewe the same : as the Ministers haue cyted it : where it is said , that the Doctors reproued the said Ministers , because they gaue some restraint and limitation of the omnipotencie of God. For as much as they would not stretch it generally to all the things which men can conceiue , and in their mindes imagine . Where the words generally , and all things do sufficiently declare , that the Doctors haue willed to comprehend end the foolish phantasies and imaginations themselues , which men may apprehend according to humane iudgement , and haue willed to cut off nothing from the writing of the Ministers : who peraduenture haue thought , the Doctors would not say , that God can doo all that which a foolish braine can imagine : as fearing they would inferre against them , that God then should commit some folly . Which would not follow : For albeit that some things be esteemed follyes in the iudgement of men , neuerthelesse seeing they be in themselues possible , they may bee done of God ; but wisely , although humane sence do iudge the contrary : euen as in many iudgements man is deceiued : esteeming that folly , which ( as saith Saint Paul ) is wisedome to wards God. The Doctors then say , that all things imaginable to man , are without exception to bee done as touching God : the things excepted , which imply contradiction to be , and not to be . Which cannot be done in regard of the repugnancie comming on their part , and not by default of the power of God. The Doctors pray them that shall bee able to reade these Conferences , to note , that the Ministers are alwaies found false accusers , whē they taxe the Doctors with slaunder : as in the former writing they remaine thereof conuinced . The Ministers shall finde themselues also false accusers in the article following : there where they cut off the saying of the Doctors , and falsly impute vnto them , that they haue written , God can do something against order . The Doctors haue well said , that it is blasphemy to say , that God could do nothing against the order by him established in the world . Where appeareth the slaunder of the Ministers , who haue clipped the sentence , and taken away these words [ Established in the world ] . In that they inferre , it is blasphemy to say , that God can doo a thing which is not well ordained . It is doublesse , but to doo some matter against the order established in the world , importeth not some thing disordered : but onely a mutation and chaunge of order , without any disorder , which the Ministers confesse in their article following . The Doctors haue in great execration the blasphemies contained in the next article . Of which the first is , that one body to bee in diuers places , is a thing derogatorie to the truth of God : for as much as in God there should bee yea and nay . So that the Ministers doo say , that God should not be true , if hee caused one body to bee in diuers places . And yet teach they not , nor can teach , that God hath euer said , that one body could not bee in diuers places . It impugneth the wisedome of God : because that in his workes ther● should be disorder and confusion . Wherin they likewise confesse , that God should not be wise , if he caused one body at one instant , to be in diuers places . The third is , that such a thing repugneth the omnipotencie of God. For in such a worke there should be imperfection . So that , so farre off is it ( after the Ministers opinion ) that God in so dooing should bee almightie ; that contrariwise he should be imperfect and weake . The fourth is , that were such a thing done , it should bee against the eternall and vnchangeable will of God : and therefore God should bee mutable : which blasphemies doo necessarily disgorge a manifest Atheisme : to wit , that God should not bee God , if hee made one bodie to bee in diuers places at one selfe-same instant : For God cannot be but true , wise , almightie , and vnchangeable : which blasphemies the Doctors doo content themselues to quote and marke onely : and to admonish what simple stuffe issueth from the doctrine of them , which denie the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament , without dwelling vpon further confutation of them : as beeing too manifest , and hauing regard to that which Ireneus saith : that some heresies there be : which to discouer , is to refute them . In the article following , do they gainesay that which so often they haue said , that God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places at one instant : because it repugneth the order which he hath established in the world . As if God could not do otherwise , then according to the order alreadie by him established . In the present article they confesse , that God can change and vnchange the said order . From which confession the Doctors drawe such an argument : God can chaunge and alter the order which hee hath established in the world : and that without preiudice to his truth , wisdome , power , and vnchangeable will. Therefore can he chaunge the order , by which he hath established ( as the Ministers wil say ) that one body shuld be but in one place ; & cause contrariwise , ( the order being chaunged ) that one body shall bee in diuers places : without that the same is any way derogatorie to his truth , wisedome , power , and will. And that by consequence , God of his omnipotencie can cause one body to be in diuers places . As touching the article of the distinction of the will of God , the Ministers do confound the whole : vnderstanding nothing in the said distinction , no more then in that which they say , that one body to be in two places , is in the ranke of things which God hath declared by his word , against the which he can do nothing . The question is first of the omnipotencie of God , which is reduced to his power , and not to his essence , and to that which he is in himselfe : as to be one , wise , good : which things belong not to the matter of the omnipotencie , but of the essence in himselfe . Secondly , what reason is there to confer the being of one body in one place : or to know whether God can cause it to be in two or many places : with the essence of God , which is one , incomprehensible , &c. seeing that such things of number , pertaine to the essence of God , and power to make one body in many places , doth nothing properly belong vnto it , and is not referred vnto the same . Thirdly , the Ministers say , that God by his word haih declared his will , because he was one : which nothing serueth to the present matter . But ( pardoning the Ministers such follies ) how dare they cōpare with the matter of Gods essence , that which is in question of the being of one body in one , or in diuers places ? seeing God hath neuer said that he could not do it : as he hath manifestly shewed all the other perfectiōs , which pertaine to the diuine essence . Wherby it appeareth , that it sufficeth the Ministers to fill vp paper , without founding their saying vpon solid reason . For as much as they repute it slaunder , when one cutteth off some of their words , albeit the full sence abide : the Doctors do wonder , that the Ministers haue not feared the like obiections to them . But they are so accustomed therevnto , that they cannot beware thereof . As in the article where mention is made of the definitiō of a body , they passe that ouer in silence , which giueth solution to theyr difficultie . The Doctors haue defined a bodie to be a kind of firme quantitie , of three dimensions , length , breadth , and deepenesse : which definition comprehendeth the whole essence of one body , which is of the predicament of quantitie : and no mention is any way made of the circumscription of place . The Ministers say , that the Doctors by their definition , doo limit the body , and therefore it is circumscript . But they haue maliciously omitted ( as it is to bee supposed ) this little word [ place ] . For the question is not , whether a body be lymited , or no , seeing that no man doth call it infinite . But the question is , whether it bee essentially circumscript of place , so that it cannot bee a body , if it bee not in place : for as much as the Ministers could not answere to the argument of the Doctors , they haue cut off that which annoyed them . The foure next articles deserue no new reply : and therefore the Doctors send backe the readers to that which heretofore hath bene said . They onely admonish , that it is a great matter which the Ministers do hold , that a myracle could not bee done in the body of Iesus Christ , without chaunge of his nature : and such an opinion do they impose vpon Instine , who hath said and maintained ( with the other Auncients ) that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without chaunge of nature , albeit that the operation of the myracle , was wrought in the nature of the body , without changing the same : but in giuing it a spirituall qualitie and perfection , to wit , subtiltie , aboue the natural qualities of a body . With like boldnesse , call the Ministers the scripture of the Camells passage through the eye of a needle , a parable and similitude : as they doo that of the Supper , and all others which withstand their errors . And the better to escape , they say that God saueth not , but changeth and conuerteth the rich man : and so cannot make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle , without diminishing and changing of his grossenesse . But the Ministers will not consider , that when our Lord spake of the rich man his entrie into the kingdome of heauen , he put not the difficultie in the entring of the kingdome properly , but in the conuersion of the rich man : by which , hee should obtaine the entrie and possession of heauen . Therefore when our Lord saith , that it is more easie for God , to cause a Camell ( or Cable ) to enter through the eye of a needle , then a rich man the kingdome of heauen : hee intendeth to compare the conuersion of a rich man ( which is vnpossible with men ) to the passage of a Camell abiding in his grossenesse : otherwise , there should bee no apparance of difficultie : and our Lord would not haue saide , that such a thing had beene impossible to men . The Doctors say moreouer , that they haue not produced this place , to proue and inferre properly the penitration of dimensions : but to shewe , that God can make a body to occupie place , not proportionable to it greatnesse : which is as well contrarie to the nature of a grosse and thicke body , as that one body be in diuers places . Where the Ministers do boast , that they are not constrained to confesse any thing of Gods workes , alledged by the Doctors out of the scripture : it followeth not that the Doctors out of the scripture : it followeth not that the Doctors haue brought forth vaine reasons to constraine and conuince them . And for the same referre them to the Acts of the Conference . And as touching the knowledge , whether God could do such myracles alledged , aboue the nature of a body , the Ministers cannot escape whatsoeuer euasion they pretend , vnconuinced ( if not openly , yet silently at least ) to haue denied , as well the power as the deed : For , affirming that God canot cause one body to be in diuers places , because it repugneth the order by him established in the world , and his wisdome and wil , which disposeth all by good order ; and that it was against the nature of a body : albeit as much may bee said thereof , as may truly bee said of all the other things ▪ mentioned touching one body : and that there are like reasons : in confessing the one , they must necessarily confesse all the others , that there is the like reason . The Ministers vnable to giue any difference , and shewe why God cannot do the one , and that he can doo the others , haue silently consented thervnto . And although they would neuer confesse the debt , and yeeled themselues vanquished , as they do boast , it is no maruell : for it is the nature of heretikes , to be obstinate , and resist the truth , what reasons soeuer are proposed vnto them . The Scribes and Pharisies neuer confessed to be ouercome of our Lord , albeit his arguments were vnreproueable . And albeit they that withstood S. Stephen , had nothing to answere , yet left they not to resist the holy Ghost , which spake by him : as the Ministers doo resist the same spirit , which speaketh in the scripture , and by the mouth of the auncient Fathers , concerning myracles done in the body of Iesus Christ aboue nature . Which the Ministers do repugne , by I know not what vaine and friuolous starting holes . S. Ierome speaketh well to this purpose , Haeretici conuinci possunt , non persuaderi . Heretikes may bee conuinced , not perswaded . And Tertullian writeth : Duritia baeretica vincenda est , non suadenda . Hereticall obduration is to be vanquished , not perswaded . And as touching the iniuries which the Ministers in this behalfe do multiply against the Doctors , in that doo they imitate all the aduersaries of truth , and giue testimony of the disquiet which such manner of people endure in theyr mindes , when their errors are shewed them . Of whom the Doctors haue pittie and compassion , & pray God to restore thē to their right sences . For as much as they know , that the conuersion of an heretike , is one of the matters reserued to the omnipotencie of God. In vaine doo the Ministers labour to produce store of Greeke , to shewe that Penetrare Caelos , dooth not signifie to passe the heauens without opening : because the Verbe [ Dierchestai ] is found , for passing where there is an opening . But the Doctors neuer said , that [ Penetrare ] or [ Dierchesthai ] may not be applied to open places : or that one pearceth in opening of them : for well do they know , that it is met with in all Authors . They haue well said , that the Ministers would inferre a reall opening of the heauen , by the rigor and proprietie of the verbe Aperire : So might they also inferre , that the heauens were shut in the ascention of Iesus Christ , by the verbes Dierchesthai , and Penetrare , which strictly do signifie , to pearce or passe through , without that of it selfe it importeth an opening : albeit a man may vse the same where there is an open passage . But by the rigour of theyr signification can they not necessarily inferre an opening , if the opening bee not shewed from some other place , by some word , or euident condition of the thing pierced : as it is in the texts by the Ministers alledged . Now in the ascention these words [ Dierchesthas ] , and [ Penetrare ] , are put for to pierce : and no word is there added , which importeth a division of the heauens . The condition of which , nor the state of the glorified body of Iesus Christ , doo not constraine that one necessarily vnderstand an opening to haue beene made , to suffer the body of Iesus Christ to enter . Therefore did the Doctors wel reason of the rigor of [ Penetrare : ] as the Ministers did of the rigour of [ Aperire : ] which more often is found in the scripture without signification of the reall opening of the heauens , then [ Penetrare ] is found in the scripture to signifie a diuision and actuall cutting of the heauens . For Aperire Caelos , is often found for imaginary and spirituall opening ; and hardly is Penetrare Caelos euer found for actuall diuision of the heauens . And therefore had the Doctors better reason to conclude , by the rigour of the verbe Dierchesthai , or Penetrare , ( to pierce without actuall diuision of the heauens ) then the Ministers had to inferre the opening of them by the verbe Aperire . The Ministers in the last article obiect to the Doctors , that they haue passed ouer some places of scripture , by which it appeareth , that faith is the worke of God , whervnto ( say the Doctors ) that in some one of their writings they haue expresly confessed , that faith , in as much as it is a gift of God , it is a worke of God : but in as much as he that beleeueth worketh together with God , in beleeuing ( for Nemo credit , nisivolēs , no man beleeueth vnlesse he be willing ) it is a humane work . And it is not repugnāt one self-same work , for diuers causes to be a worke of God , and a worke of man. And where they say , that the auncient Fathers haue said ( if not in proper , yet in equiualent termes ) that God could not cause one body to be in diuers places : that is false . And the Ministers neuer haue , nor can shewe the same : and contradict their last writing . For bringing the reason , why the Fathers haue not expresly said it : It was ( said they ) because they neuer thought that such an absurditie would euer fall into the braine of man. Which reason ought to haue place , for the saying in termes equiualent , as in expresse termes , sith one selfe-same thing is signified as well by the one , as by the other . As touching the rest , the Ministers neuer answer to the principall point , whereof they haue bene so often admonished : and they efsoones admonish them , should they a thousand times call this saying a repetition : to wit , that they are required to bring scripture , to proue that it repugneth the order established in the world , the truth , the wisedome , omnipotencie , and vnchangeable will of God , that one body may be in two places : which thing they cannot do : but they will answere , as they are accustomed : that is to say , nothing . Wherein appeareth , that their doctrine is not founded vpon Gods word , but vpon their owne opinion , or particular inspiration , which cannot be but of Sathan . For it cannot be of the holy Ghost which is against the common consent of the Church vniuersall . And vpon the same are also founded , the other articles of their religion : albeit they disguise them , and promise Gods word to euery purpose . A short Aduertisement of the Doctors , vpon the Ministers Resolution , touching the omnipotencie of God. THe Doctors are astonied at the fashiō of the Ministers , in their words and writings . For they themselues from the beginning of the Conference , haue neuer had patience to prosecute & conclude one onely point , without mingling other things therewithall , impertinent to the matter in question : as shal appeare by the reading of the acts . And before their resolution made of the omnipotencie of God , they haue heaped vp all the articles which they could remember , and throwne one vpon an other without cause or reason . Although the Doctors at their request , had proposed the Articles of the Supper : And after dispute of the omnipotencie of God ( to make present the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament ) to come orderly to shewe and proue , that the will of God hath bene such , and that there it is . But the Doctors well vnderstand the good custome of all them of the pretended reformed religion : which is , to spet in the eyes of Christians , all the articles of the Religion , and theyr inuented filthinesse , all on one threed : to the end , that nought bee determined , that all abide in confusion , and that the Serpent glide awaye , hauing cast his venome . Moreouer , by obseruation of the Ministers answeres , it shall bee seene and knowne , that they neuer stay vpon any certaine and the same answere , but rather of an act alledged out of the scripture : where of euery question , they haue giuen therevnto diuers impertinent , and sometimes vnsufferable answeres . Of which the Doctors do admonish them that can read these Conferences , and pray them to haue regard to the same , and thereof referre them to their iudgement . Furthermore , the Doctors admonish the Ministers , that they may , or ought to knowe , that all Sects of our times doo cast before the eyes of those whom they will abuse , the same beadroll of Articles , which the Ministers in theyr Resolution haue gathered together , to get audience against the Church Catholique , and to bring in theyr heresies and errors , vnder the name of the glorie of GOD. Whereof they boaste to bee defenders as well as the Ministers . And therefore are they not so acceptable in theyr opinions and conclusions , that the Ministers can pretend any right , to exalt the power and glorie of God , by such mingling and confounding of all matters together . Moreouer the Doctors shewe , that they may with better reason retort against the Ministers , the conclusiō which they pretend to inferre , of the subtiltie and craft of Sathan : which is ( as they write ) that Sathan vnder faire shewe of pietie , glideth like a Serpent into the Church of GOD , to put therein disorder and confusion : and in the end to assaile God himselfe . The Doctors do pray each one to consider in himselfe , whether the Ministers purpose be not such by their deductions , and generally by the principall points of theyr doctrine . For vnder faire pretext to roote out some abuses and errors against the word of the Lord , which they falsly studie to perswade the world to bee in the Church Catholique : And vnder the shadow to preach , that they seeke the aduancement of the name of the same Lord , they goe about to spoile God of all his proprieties and perfection , albeit they no more declare it , then Sathan told his meaning to the first man. Furthermore , the Ministers abase the merit and efficacie of the bloud of Iesus Christ , and open a doore by their doctrine to all vices and sinnes . Be it so , the Doctors will not repeate what the Ministers haue held , concerning the omnipotencie of God : because they shall fill their writings therewithall . But so it is , that in their goodly resolution ( although they suite it with seemely words ) that God cannot ( after them ) but so much as they please to receiue of his wisdome and will : which they disguise after their owne sence , when it is found declared in the scripture . Against the goodnesse of God they hold that he is the author and worker of euill , and of sinne . Against his mercie they teach , that he neuer pardoneth , nor will pardon a man which shall maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth : or which shall resist the same . Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ , and passion of the Crosse , in proper termes haue they written , that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death , and by the sheading of his whole bloud , he had nought done , nor profited for our redemption : if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule , the paines of the damned before his death : and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell . The Ministers do also instruct their adherents , that murther , adultery , robbery , theft , and euery crime whatsoeuer , is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate , who is neuer ( say they ) out of the fauour of God , what thing soeuer he commit : and do assure their faithfull , and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly , that they are in grace , and predestinate , which is in plaine termes ( albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē ) to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse , and other articles which the Doctors will verifie , where the matter shall require the same . If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings , and published in their Sect , the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin , wil testifie the same . To be briefe , behold the glory of God , and of his sonne Iesus Christ , wherevnto tend the Ministers , by the rooting out of the pretended impieties , mentioned in many articles of their last resolution . For briefe answere wherevnto , the Doctors doo say , that some things by slaunder of the Ministers , are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church : that others are expressed in the holy scripture : and others drawne from the same , and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles , and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church : the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article . And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place , if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie : but if to make their doctrine confused , they persist to mingle all together , the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere . Moreouer , the Ministers in generall , doo rightly attribute to the power of God : and say well , that the certaine knowledge thereof , is to be taken by the scriptures , which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors . Very well say they also , that it is infinite and incomprehensible . But when they come to particularities , and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth , then forget they holy scriptures , and without them do measure the same , according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God : & according to the order established in the world : and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit , they tie it to the conditiō , proprietie , & natural order of creatures : As though to make something against , or aboue the order , condition , & natural proprietie of the creatures , were a thing repugnant to the wisedome , nature , and wil of God. Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion , touching the omnipotencie of God : which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors . And as touching S. Augustine , which they produce for them , he hath bene answered heretofore . The Doctors refer them to their writings , cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold , as a sufficient argument ( to infer some matter to be done of God ) to shewe that he hath power to do it . The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie . The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers , as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature . Who haue onely said , that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith , founded vpon the word , commeth from the consideration of naturall things , against the power of God. Concerning Abrahā , the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth , that he & his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God. And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū , & mortuā vuluā Sarae . His owne dead body , & the dead wombe of Sarah : vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie . And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham , from his first vocation , vntil after such assurance , without putting distinction in the Historie , of that which was before , or after such assurance : as is that which the Apostle saith , that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū , his owne dead body , but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse , & of the promise made vnto him . The Doctors say : they haue better concluded according to the faith , we ought to haue of the power of God ( to make one bodie in diuers places ) then the Ministers haue done : which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō , & to beleeue that God could not do it , or that it repugneth the wisedome , prouidence , and eternall vertue , or the humanitie of Iesus Christ , yea the nature of a simple bodie only . But concerning all that , the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption , and particular reuelation , without one onely passage of scripture , wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion . Contrariwise , haue the Doctors founded their faith ( not on the power of God onely , to make one body in diuers places , but to beleeue the deed , and that God hath so willed ) on the holy scripture : as in theyr Resolution is contained : with the passages of auncient Fathers , which they to this end haue alledged . Which are so plaine , that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same . And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes . For all the rest of the Ministers resolution ( where are mightie iniuries , Impostures , and slanders against the Doctors ) they answere nothing : hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing . And the Doctors also do well vnderstand , that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers : who more esteem their owne particular reuelation , for their whole instruction , then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall , and all Christians together . And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them , as people voyd of sound sence , and without iudgement : which thing they declare , by theyr maner of dealing . An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors , against the answere of the Ministers . WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper , it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is , which the Ministers haue done , in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter . For it shall be proued , as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made , to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter : and then at more leisure to put it in writing ( which the Ministers haue refused ) : as also by the first obiections , which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie : wherby they touched the foundations , vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament . And shall moreouer be verified , in that the Doctors haue obiected to the Ministers some arguments against their Supper , to make them enter into the same . Vnto which they haue nothing answered : or so impertinently ( at the least ) as one may iudge by the reading of their answere , that they fled the Lists : as yet also they do , by their last writing : hiding as much as they possibly can , what they thinke of the Supper : albeit they haue bene admonished to answere therevnto plainely and to purpose . Whether the Doctors or the Ministers retyre , shall bee seene by effect : For albeit the Ministers will not answer , the Doctors will not leaue to aduise them thereof , and to manifest to all the world , the intollerable errors which bee in the Supper , and in all the doctrine of the Ministers : Who beeing demaunded , dare not confesse and auouch by writing , what hath beene written by the inuenters of theyr Supper . Now to begin to speake thereof , the Ministrrs do maintaine it to be celebrated according to the ordinances of Iesus Christ , and after the fashion which the Apostles vsed , and all the Primitiue Church whiles it flourished , and abode in it puritie . Wherevpon the Doctors demaund , how long the Ministers esteeme the doctrine of the Supper to abide in it puritie ? And whether the Church were not then as pure in the doctrine of all the other articles , as of this ? Furthermore , whether since that time , there is not some place in the world , where the true doctrine of the Supper , and of other Articles , haue beene retained and conserued : and whether such doctrine hath euer continued without interruption ? and in what place ? and by whom hath it bene preached and set forth , and from age to age ? The Doctors desire the Ministers to make declaration thereof , for that it much importeth . For as much as before Caluin put forth his Catechisme , there was no memorie , that such doctrine as he taught , had bene held in any Region ; and the Supper was not celebrated after the fashion and maner as it is celebrated in the Church , called Reformed . The Doctors would willingly cheare vp the Ministers , who are much disquieted in their writing , because the Doctors haue said , that their Supper differeth not from a common banquet , except in that it is worse : as being prophane and polluted . To meete wherwithall , the Ministers haue made a great narration of the whole action of their Supper : and by faire shewes , which haue a forme of all godlinesse , they endeuour to make it very commendable , and to couer a new nothing betweene two platters . And contrariwise , that they may tread vnder foote and abase the thrise ▪ precious sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the Masse , by renting in peeces some shewe of him : as if they were vsed without reason or signification , which the Ministers vnderstand not , or make semblance not to vnderstand . But things ought not to be prised and esteemed by their shewes , but according to their value , nature , and truth . Moreouer , the Ministers should foresee , that all the Sects which bee now in the world against the Church Catholique , for the act of the holy Sacrament , doo vse at the least , as faire shewe as they . And were they thereof asked , there is not any which would not enforce himselfe , to proue , that it approacheth nearer to Iesus Christ and his Apostles , and the Primitiue Church , then the pretended reformed Religion dooth . Concerning all which , the Doctors referre them to the writings of the Lutherans , Zuinglianists , Anabaptists , Trinitaries , Maister Alasco , and such like . For vnreasonable it is by such faire deceits , to preferre the Supper of the Ministers , to other Sects : & to iudge it good , holy , vnpolluted , and according to the word of God : but to repute it rather polluted , and defiled with impietie : for as much as it cloaketh a lye in stead of truth , and giueth the shewe of pietie , to impietie and falshood . Also the Doctors haue not dispraised the Supper of the Ministers , for the praises therein giuen to God , or for the confession they there make of their sinnes : or the preaching ( if it contained the truth ) , or for other preparation . But therefore did they say it was detestable , because , against the ordinance of Iesus Christ , it contained not , but common bread and wine : and yet that they attributed vnto it some spirituall effect , and other faire pretext of godlinesse . The which is an abhominable thing , and inuentiō of Sathan , who endeuoureth by such maner of Supper , to abolish and extinguish the true Supper , according to the institution of Iesus Christ , and to depriue the faithfull of the fruite , and veritie of the same Supper : in causing them to giue common bread onely , instead of the body and blood of our sauiour Iesus Christ . The Doctors could as well recyte the euill shewes , as the Ministers do recyte the good , which be in their Supper : as the secrets , the new enterprises practised vnder colour and shadow of assemblies made in their said Supper . But to the ende the Ministers reproach not the Doctors , that Priests spake of armes , of contributions , &c. they passe it ouer with silence , and referre them to the thing it self : and wil content themselues to declare some causes , whereby they maintaine , that there is no truth in the same Supper , according to the institution of Iesus Christ : which are such as follow . That in the Supper of the Ministers , and theyr like , no consecration can be made of the matter of bread & wine which are there proposed . And that for this cause , there is not in the same matter any change made , be it before , or in , or after the vse . And by consequence that the bread and wine in such a Supper , cannot be but common . That no consideratiō is made in their Supper : hereby appeareth , first , that it belongeth not to all persons , to consecrate bread and wine in the Supper : but onely to those that by imposition of the Pastors and Bishops hands , are lawfully ordained according to the succession from the Apostles time , euen vnto vs. Now certaine it is , that the most part of the Ministers of the Church , called Reformed , be not ordained by the laying on of the Pastors hands , who haue the power by succession frō one to an other since the Apostles . Whereof we must conclude , that such Ministers vsurping the office which pertaineth not to them , cannot make any consecration , and giue not by consequence but common bread and wine . Which article shall be spoken of , when we shall entreat of the sacrifice and Priesthood . Secondly , to make consecration of the bread and wine , it sufficeth not that the person be fit to consecrate the matter : but also it is necessary , that the lawfull Minister by a certaine meane , do make the consecration : to wit , by blessing , and pronouncing of certaine words ouer the matter proposed ; euen as Iesus Christ hath first obserued it . And because the Ministers ( albeit they were lawfully ordained , and that they had authoritie and power to consecrate ) vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine , ( withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did , and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo ) they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine , and that in them any chaunge happeneth . Whereof it followeth , that they differ not from common bread and wine , and that such a feast and banquet is but common . And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it , the name of Christs Supper . Behold , why partly the Doctors haue said , that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet . The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely , to the demaunds by them proposed , which they haue not done : which is the cause that the Doctors , least they should trauell in vaine , haue not yet willed to impugne their answere : summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them , without drawing backe from the Conference , which ( they say ) they affect so greatly . The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments : to wit , whether the Ministers did beleeue , that two things were essentiall and necessary , to the confection of the Sacrament : namely , the matter , or element , and the word . The Ministers answere , that the Sacrament in it perfection considered , consisteth in three things , &c. They speake indeterminately : so that one cannot iudge , whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament , which they call the Supper onely : or generally of all , as they were demaunded . Although because they alledge Ireneus , one may coniecture , that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper . Moreouer it behoueth to note , that which they adde ( in it perfection considered ) : to haue alwaies a starting hole , when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament . The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments . For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall . And that they openly declare what things be essentiall , and necessary to a Sacrament , to be made a Sacrament : without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament , containing the essence and spirituall fruites , which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament . To the second demaund , the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first . And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded , whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament : and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper . The Ministers haue sayd , that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words , addressed to the elements , was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament . But they demaunded not , whether it behooued to pronounce that word , with a lowe , or high voyce : but the Interrogatory was , whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament , that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter , or in administring the matter : and that they might be such words for the Supper . And it is not sufficient to say , that the word , by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared , is the word of the Sacrament : but it behoueth to answere , in what words consisteth that word , and when it must be pronounced . As touching the sixt and principall demaund , the Ministers answere not clearly , and to purpose : but make a captious answere : by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence & participatiō of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper . And so temper they their saying , that there is no Zuinglian , nor Almanists , which confesseth not thereof as much , or more then they : To wit , that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ , & that they possesse him in the power of their faith , and by the operation of his holy spirite , to be made flesh of his flesh , and bones of his bones , &c. But this is farre off from the demaund : to wit , whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules , besides all the graces spirituall ( among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ ) his true bodie and blood , really , truly , and substantially ? And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament , with the fruites thereof proceeding ? And for more breuitie , the Doctors demaund , whether the Ministers do receiue , and approoue , that which Caluin hath written of the Supper , and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme , Institution , and other bookes . As touching the seauenth demaund , the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them , touching the Concomitance : For they haue taken it , as if one demaunded , whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question . But suche a difficultie was proposed to them : namely , whether in theyr Supper , when one hath receiued the bread , before hee receiue the wine , he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ , without hee be partaker of his bloud , vntill hee haue taken the wine : or hauing eaten the bread , whether he hath receiued the body and bloud , before he take the Cup ? To which demaunds , to auoyd vaine blotting of paper , the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere , without wandering , and to render open confession of their faith . And that the Doctors may knowe , what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue . As touching the articles of the Masse , the Doctors reserue them to their proper place : which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ . After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament . The fourth of August , the yeare aboue said . The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors , sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois , the morning , being 7. of August . 1566. THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous , and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors , as be theyr repetitions and rehea●salls : dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings , ( by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth , and the Ministers , then the questions by them propounded ) will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere . The Ministers first say , that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place , but to a certaine company , and to the traditions giuen , followed , and by the same approued . And they magnifie God , that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world : and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie , and traditions of the Romane Church : which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers , when errours , abuses , and vices , did not as yet there abounde , as since they doo . But now that all things almost are there corrupted , as well in manners , as in doctrine : and that nothing is there more odious , then the word , the light , the trueth , and the power of God. The Ministers do say : that as the state of the same Church hath beene chaunged , so ought to bee also the esteeme and reputation in which it hath beene : adding therevnto , that in whatsoeuer degree of honor she hath bene formerly lifted , she hath not neuerthelesse beene esteemed by the Fathers for the vniuersall Church , nor her Bishop for vniuersall Bishop : As by that which Saint Ierome wrote thereof to Euagrius : and by that which concerning the same , was determined in one of the Councells of Carthage , appeareth . And as touching the reformed Church in France , the Ministers doo not say , that it is the vniuersall and Catholique Church , but only a member of the same : And that it hath it foundation , not vpon the opiniō or authoritie of men : but vpon the doctrine & writings of the Prophets & Apostles . Moreouer , as touching the protestations of Charitie and zeale , whereby the Doctors feare to bee forced vnto Inuectiues and pursuites which they make against the Ministers , and other the faithfull , by the example ( as they say ) of Saint Augustine , and other Bishops , which in time past solicited the Magistrates against the Donatists : theyr proceedings and fashion which they haue , and still doo vse towards the sayd Ministers , and faithfull , do euidently declare , that with false tokens they shrowd themselues by these examples . For as much as the Catholiques , whome they alledge , exhorted the Magistrate to vse all moderation and mildn●sse towards the Donatists and other heretiques ; and to assay all meanes to reduce them , before they came to the rygor of paines and iudgement . And further , they endeuoured to containe and represse the fury of the people , and to hinder theyr open violence vpon them . Whereas they contrariwise , doo stirre vp against the Ministers , the people and Magistrates , by slaunder and false imputations ▪ and by all other fashions & meanes they can inuent for this purpose . Touching the Omnipotencie of God , and the definition thereof , which the Ministers haue proposed , drawne and extracted out of the bookes of Saint Augustine : the Doctors in theyr last writing , produce no new thing , to cause them leaue the ●ame . For that they alledge of the Angels , which can do whatsoeuer they will , and by that meanes should be almightie as well as God ( if the abouesayd definition of his Omnipotencie had place ) is an example from the purpose , and which cannot prooue that there is in the Angels any such power , as in God. For certaine it is , that theyr will and power dependeth elsewhere , and that God ruleth ouer them , to chaunge , suspend and hinder them as he pleaseth , and as he can do in all other creatures . Which none can say of God , without blasphemy . Howsoeuer it be , If the Doctors will reproue the definition of Gods Omnipotency proposed by the Ministers , they deale not with them , but with S. Augustine : For as much as the said definitiō was word for word copied out of his writings . The Ministers do maruell , that after they had so amply declared to the Doctors , what they thought of Gods Omnipotencie , and shewed , that it stretched not indifferently to all things which men in theyr foolish phantasies , may conceiue or imagine : the Doctors will eftsoones harpe on that string , alledging that God can do wisely , what fooles do foolishly imagine . For manifest it is , that fooles can imagine many things which are impossible to God. As for example , that there is no God. Psal . 14. and 53. That hee is corporeall , as thought the Anthropomorphites . That the world is eternall : as thought the Peripatetiques . That there was two beginnings : as taught the Manichees . All which thinges , can no way without blasphemie be attributed to the Omnipotencie of God. But that which more contenteth the Ministers , is , that our Maisters , after so long and sharpe combat in this Article , and so of●en crying blasphemie , when the sayd Ministers proposed the truth thereof , are constrayned in the end to accord with them , and follow the interpretation and restraint which the Ministers themselues had giuen touching the Omnipotency of God : as it appeareth by a sentence of theyr last writing , whereof the words are such . The Doctors say : That all things imaginable to man , are possible to be done with God , without any exception : but of those things which imply contradiction , to be , and not to be . What reason then is there , that for the things ( whereof the Ministers and Doctors agree , that they ought to be excepted out of Gods omnipotency ) the Ministers in excepting them , be held for blasphemers , & not the Doctors , which say & confesse the selfe-same thing ? Now this proposition that a naturall body ( yea that of Iesus Christ ) is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant , is in the ranke of things which imply contradictiō : as it hath bin already sufficiently proued . Therfore the Ministers cōclude , that the omnipotency of God cannot be referred & extended thervnto . The Doctors doo afterwards charge the Ministers with foure horrible blasphemies ( as they say ) grounding themselues vpon that which the Ministers in defending that one body could not be diuers places at one instant ) haue said , that it repugned the truth , wisdome , and omnipotency of God. Which thing , the said Doctors finde so straunge , and farre from reason , that they would not vouchsafe to staie to refute it : thinking it was vnworthie of answere , and that it sufficed to haue recyted the same . Wherevnto the Ministers answere ▪ that it is a very easie and readie meane , to rid them speedily of all the difficulties wherein they finde themselues wrapped , to say , that it is a blasphemy , and vnworthie of answere . The Doctors yet make instance to the Ministers , and say : that it behooueth them to shewe by the word of God , that one bodie cannot be in diuers places at one instant . Wherevnto the Ministers ef●soones answer ; that it is for the Doctors to proue the contrary by one text of scripture : to wit , that one body may be in diuers places at one selfe-same instant : seeing that they are proponents in this Conference , & the Ministers respondents : and that neuerthelesse , they haue heretofore shewed them by liuely reasons , drawne from the scripture , and the essentiall proprieties of God , frō . the nature of bodies , and the authorities of Fathers : that the thing in question was wholly impossible . And touching the argument which they thus make , God can change the order which he hath established in nature . Therfore can he also cause that one body at one instant be in many places . The Ministers denie the consequence , and yeeld reason therof : for as much as such a matter should not onely change the order , but should wrap vp also a contradiction : the which , by the confessiō of the Doctors themselues , is excepted out the omnipotencie of God. The Doctors in the article following , do but reproach the Ministers , for they confound and obscure what had bene clearly proposed by the Ministers , in their last writing . By means wherof , let them make ( if they will ) more large an answer , and expound themselues better . Where the Doctors accuse the Ministers to haue maliciously concealed the word [ place ] in the matter of circumscription of a measured body : the Ministers say , that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there . For as much as there is no man so ignorant , who ( hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript ) but doth presently inferre , that then it is comprised in a place certaine . As touching the Camell , if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof , then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written , in his first booke against the Pelagians : who expounding the words of Iesus Christ , saith as followeth . In this hath the Lord not said , that it may be done : but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other . For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle : so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen . Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth , it will also follow , that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle . And alledge not vnto me Abraham , and the others , which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich , and which being such , were entered into the kingdome of heauen , because they ( well vsing their riches , and imploying them to good workes ) haue by that meane ceased to be rich . Behold what S. Ierome writeth . Thē , as it is necessary ( after the saying of S. Ierome ) that for the saluation of the rich man , there be a mutation and changing in his heart ; yea and that hee cease to be rich , to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen : so also it behoueth , that there be a chaunge in the Camell , and that hee cease to be such : that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle . As touching the article following , the Ministers say , that by the grace of God , they may discerne the light from darknesse , and falshood from truth . Which is the cause , that they cannot approue , neither the arguments , nor conclusions of the Doctors , touching the being of one body in many places at one instant : being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture , that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue , not else-where proceedeth , then from the spirit of error and falshood . Which wil retaine by that meane , the impietie and Idolatrie , which hee hath formerly established in the world , to the ruine almost of all Christendome . As touching the verbe [ Dierchesthai ] the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration : which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word : as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them , not vpon any authoritie of the scripture . To that which the Doctors alledge ( to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues , & not wholy of God ) that Nemo credit nisivolēs , ( to wit , that none beleeueth but willingly ) the Ministers answer : that ( vnder our Maisters correction ) it is nought to the purpose : for as much as this will and consent is of God : who worketh in the faithfull , both the will and the deed . Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles , verie well teacheth , where he saith : That when God calleth men to saluation , he findeth not in them any good will at all : but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts , if he wil finde it there . And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge , that we are coworkers with God , serueth nothing for their purpose : For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery . And meant no other thing , then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths , in these words : We are Embassadors for Christ : as if God exhorted by vs. And touching that which they adde , that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught , that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time : The Ministers say yea . As they haue shewed in their former writings , where the passages of S. Augustine , Ad Dardanum : and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn , and others haue bene alledged . The Ministers answere not but to two points onely , of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement . The first is , that theyr Sermons , theyr writings , theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches , the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed , the care which they , and the Superintendents haue , to discouer , reprooue and correct them : the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered , and the publique prayers , which in all places they make to these endes : defend them with all good people : and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors . The second is , that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued , in that they haue said , that Abraham doubted of the promise . Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth . Where , in these proper termes he saith : And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe , but was strengthened in the faith , and gaue glorie vnto God. For answere to the Doctors last Obiection , made ( as they say ) agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question , vppon the matter of the Supper ▪ Although the sayd Doctors , do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper , and of the Masse : yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement , that they haue not hetherto retyred , and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto . For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers , some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon , of his will and desire to bring them therevnto : yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd , hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them , that ( all other thinges set apart ) they would in good earnest , conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid . Which thing the Ministers perceiuing , and not desiring to depart from them , without conference first had therof : haue often protested to dispute no more with them , till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued . And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode , as well of the one as of the other : to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses , they would gainsay and withstand . The Doctors hauing dissembled the same , in stead of pursuing of them , doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions , taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie . And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue , that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors : neuerthelesse , to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie , the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions . But now in stead of following theyr Answeres , and impugning of them , if any way they could : they propose againe newe questions , no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former . Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation . And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes , they doo in the meane time , what in them possiblie lyeth , to drawe them from the Conference thereof : to the ende , it may breake off , before that this matter be cleared . By meanes whereof , the Ministers for conclusion , and resolution of all the Conference , determine by Gods grace , to couch briefly by writing , and in the clearest manner they can , all what God hath taught them concerning the same ; and what they haue learned thereof by his word : as well to satisfie the debt and bond which they haue to God , and his honour , to obey my Lord of Neuers , and Madame de Buillon : as lastly , for the contentment and edification of the whole Church . The Conclusion and resolution of the points , as well of the Supper , as of the Masse , containing a declaration of that which the Ministers beleeue concerning the same : and teache thereof in their Church by the word of God. THe end and chiefe felicitie of men , is to be conioyned with God , and to abide in him : For as much as it is the only meane by which all their desires can be contented and satisfied : and by the which also , their mindes and hearts can be plainly freed and deliuered , from the hard and cruel bondage of sinne , and of all the passions , greedie desires , feares & distrusts , which do assaile them . Which was the cause , why S. Paul placeth perfect beatitude , and entire repose of the blessed in this : that God is all in all in them . But for as much as men be naturally corrupt and wicked , and contrariwise God in all perfection , is pure and holy : the difficultie is to knowe and choose the meane , by which they may approach vnto him . Seeing that there is no societie betweene light and darknesse , nor any communion betweene righteousnesse and vnrighteousnesse . In them cannot this meane bee found : by reason , that of themselues they are wholly vnable , and vncaple to relieue themselues from the miserie and curse , into which they be cast headlong . So that , beeing blinde of vnderstanding , they cannot know their owne good : nor seeke it , being rebels and heart-hardened : and therefore of necessitie must they goe out of themselues , and seeke the aboue said meane in Iesus Christ : who was giuen them of the Father , to bee their righteousnesse , wisedome , sanctification , redemption , way , life , and truth . Then resteth it now to knowe , how they may bee vnited and conioyned with him . The Apostle dooth teach vs , that the same is done by faith , by which Iesus Christ dwelleth in our hearts , and abideth in vs : so that hee and wee are made one , and hee and his Father are one . Now , there are two principall causes of this faith , the one outward , and the other inward . The inward is the holy Ghost , who is called the spirit of faith : for as much as he is the Author thereof , and createth and bringeth it forth in the harts of men : mollifying and disposing them to receiue with all obedience , the word and promise of God , which is preached vnto them by the faithfull stewards , and Ministers of the same . Which word , is the outward cause of faith . And as the same faith groweth , and riseth by degrees , euen so doth the vnion which we haue with Iesus Christ , and by his meanes with God : vntill ( as saith S. Paul ) wee all meete together in the vnitie of faith , and knowledge of the sonne of God , vnto a perfect man , and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ . The increase of faith is wrought by the working and power of the holy spirite , who was the first beginning and author thereof : and afterwards , by the continuance of the word purely preached and denounced : and finally by the lawfull vse of the Sacraments , ordained as seales for the certaintie and confirmation of faith , and assurance wee haue of the foresaid coniunction with God through Iesus Christ , and of the participation of all the good things , grauntes , gifts , graces , and blessings , which by his fauour are purchased and gotten for vs. As of the remission of sinne , of our regeneration , of the mortification of the flesh , and the lusts thereof . To signifie which things , and more amply assure vs of the exhibition and enioying of the same , Baptisme was ordained of God : to the end , that in the water which is powred vpon our bodies , and in the promise of God which is therevnto added , we may behold ( as it were with our eies ) the inuisible grace which God vouchsafeth vs , to wash and cleanse vs from our spirituall filthinesse , and to fanctifie vs , and make vs new creatures : As also to further assure vs alwayes of life eternall , and make vs growe in the hope wee haue thereof , by the participation of the flesh of Iesus Christ , crucified for our redemption , and of his bloud , shead for remission of our sinnes : the bread and the wine are distributed vnto vs in the Supper , by the ordinance of Iesus Christ . But as the Ministers acknowledge , that there is a vnion , and sacramentall coniunction betweene the outward signe , and thing thereby signified : so ( say they ) on the other side , that betweene them two , there is such a distinction , that the one ought neuer to be confounded with the other : nor the spirituall thing in such sort fastened to the corporall , ( which representeth the same ) that the one without the other , cannot be receiued : or that the two by necessitie bee alwayes inseperably conioyned together . Whereof it followeth , that they erre , which will haue the bread in the Supper to bee chaunged into the substance of the bodie of Christ Iesus : And they likewise which will haue him to be conioyned , and corporally vnited therevnto . So that whosoeuer receiueth and taketh the signes , ( bee hee faithfull , or vnfaithfull ) taketh and receiueth forthwith the thing by them signified . Which error , with the most part of others happening in this matter , proceedeth of not well comprehending nor conceiuing what it is to eate the body , and drinke the bloud of Iesus Christ . Which thing ought not to bee vnderstood , in sort as corporall meates are taken and eaten , but after a spirituall manner onely : as is declared in the sixt of Saint Iohn : which in this consisteth ; that Iesus Christ dwelleth in vs , and we in him : and is done by the faith we haue in him : as teacheth S. Augustine in the 25. tract vpon S. Iohn , saying : Why preparest thou the belly , and the tooth ? beleeue , and thou hast eaten . And in the third booke and 16. Chapter de Doctrina Christiana : where he saith as followeth : When Iesus Christ saith : except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , ye haue no life in you . It seemeth that hee commaundeth to commit some great offence . It is therefore a figure , wherby we ought to vnderstand no other thing , but that it behoueth to communicate with the passion of the Lord : and to retaine in our memorie , that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. The eating then of the flesh and body of Iesus Christ , is no other thing , then a straight coniunction and vnion wee haue with him : which is made by the faith wee adde to his promises . Euen as by the mutuall promises made and receiued betweene man and woman , the marriage is concluded , and setled betweene them . And although being so conioyned , they be sometimes by some occasion seperated , and remoued the one from the other , as touching their bodies , yet for all that , do they not leaue to be one flesh , and one body , by meanes of the societie and matrimoniall familiaritie which is betweene them . In like case , albeit that Iesus Christ ( with whom wee are conioyned and vnited by the faith and trust which wee haue in him , and his promises ) bee as touching his bodie , resident in heauen , wee yet abiding vppon the earth ; and that by meanes thereof , there is great distance and space betweene him and vs , as touching his bodie : that neuerthelesse hindereth vs not , to bee flesh of his flesh , and bones of his bones : that hee is not our head , and wee his members : that hee is not our husband , and wee his spowse : that wee bee not of one selfe same body : that wee bee not engrafted into him , that wee be not cloathed with him : that wee abide not in him , as the boughes and buddes in the Vine . And there is neither distance of times , nor places whatsoeuer it be : there is no difference of times , which can hinder such a coniunction , and that the faithfull eate truly his flesh , and his bloud . For as the auncient Fathers , albeit they were two or three thousand yeares before Iesus Christ dyed , yet left they not to communicate in his flesh crucified , and to eate the same spirituall meate which we eate , and to drinke the same spirituall drinke which wee drinke . The faithfull also which are come twelue or fifteene hundred yeares after , leaue not , what place soeuer they be in , to participate ( as did the Fathers ) in the same meate , and in the same drinke , which they haue done . And no other difference there is betweene the eating of the Fathers which were before the comming of Iesus Christ , and of them that haue followed him , but the reason of more or lesse : that is to say , that there is in the one , more ample and expresse declaration of the good will of God towards vs , then in the other . Whence must be concluded , that from the beginning of the world vnto the end , there neuer was , nor shall be other coniunction betweene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Church , then spirituall : that is to fay , wrought by the spirit of God. For euen as there is but one faith in the Fathers and in vs , which respecteth alwayes on the one part and the other , our Lord Iesus Christ : so are we not also otherwise conioyned with him , then they haue bene . As then it is so , that the Fathers haue had no other societie nor communion then spirituall : It followeth thereof , that we also are not , nor can be otherwise , then spiritually cōioyned with him . Neuerthelesse it is not said , that wee and the Fathers are not flesh of his flesh , and bones of his bones : and that all together , doo not partake as well in his humanitie , as in his diuinitie . But that which wee say is : that all this participation which wee haue in him , is by the operation & vertue of the holy Ghost : which thing , Christ Iesus in S. Iohn , speaking of the meane of this coniunction , teacheth clearly , when he saith : The things which I speake vnto you , are spirit and life . And S. Paul also , when hee saith : Our fathers did eate the same spirituall meate , and dranke the same spirituall drinke . Now when wee speake of this spirituall eating , common to vs , and to the Fathers : it must not therfore be thought , that we reiect the holy Supper of the Lord , or any way thinke that the same vse of bread and wine is superfluous : no more then the vse of the water in Baptisme . For our Lord knowing the blockishnesse of our vnderstandings , and the infirmitie and weakenesse of our hearts , and through the pittie he hath of vs , willing to helpe and remedie the same : hath not contented to haue left vs the ministerie of his word , to assure vs of the participation which we haue in his flesh , & in his bloud , and in all the good things thereon depending : but hath also willed to adde therevnto , the signes of bread and wine , which he hath as seales to his word , to seale in our hearts , by the vse of the same , the faith we haue of the foresaid coniunction by his word . So that it sufficed him not to haue contracted a couenant with Abraham , by the word and promise which he made vnto him : but added moreouer therevnto the signe of Circumcision , as a seale , for more ample confirmation and assurance of the said couenant . To the end then , that each one may vnderstand what is the Supper of the Lord , and what the Ministers do thereof beleeue and teach : it is meete to consider and acknowledge in the same , three things . First the ordinance of the Lord contained in his word , and declared by his Ministerie , according to his commaundement : by which this holy cerimony hath bene ordained and established in the Church , for the edification and entertaining of the members thereof : which thing must bee diligently obserued , to haue it in that honour and reuerence as appertaineth ; and not to place it in the ranke of other cerimonies , which haue no foundation nor reason to authorise them , but the onely will and tradition of men . Neuerthelesse heed must be taken , that by the institution , and ordinance , whereof we make mention , we vnderstand not , a certaine pronuntiation of words , or any vertue which is hidden in the same : as do the Priests of the Romane Church : who by ignorance and superstitious opinion which they haue , thinke to haue consecrated , and transubstantiated the bread and wine in the Masse , by the vertue of fiue words : Hoc est enim Corpus meum . For this is my body , breathed and pronounced ouer the Elements . Wherein they are greatly deceiued and abused : for as much as the word which is the formall cause of the Sacrament , is not a word simply said and vttered , but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God , made by the Minister , according to his commaundement : and a preaching of the death of Iesus Christ , and of the fruite thereof : by which , the hearts of the hearers are lifted vp vnto the contemplation , and meditation of his benefite , and their faith stirred vp and inflamed in his loue : and where the same shall not thus be done , it must not be thought , that the Elements be Sacraments . As S. Augustine in the 80. Tract vpon Saint Iohn , in these termes teacheth : Whence commeth this vertue to the water , that in touching the body , it washeth the heart , sauing that it is done by the word : not because it is pronounced , but because it is beleeued ? This word is the word of the faith which wee preach . This ( saith the Apostle ) to wit : If we confesse with our mouth , that Iesus is the Lord , and beleeue in our heart , that God raised him from the dead , wee shall be saued . And continuing his speech , hee addeth in the end these proper words : to wit , This word of faith which wee preach , is that ( doubtlesse ) by which baptisme is consecrated , to the ende it might wash vs. Of this , as before , do the Ministers inferre two things . The one is , that the word of consecration is not ( as is said ) a simple pronuntiation , but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance , and of the whole mysterie of the death of Iesus Christ . The other , that the signes and Elements consecrated , are not chaunged as touching their nature and substance : but onely as touching the vse and signification : and that onely , during the action wherein they doo serue . For to consecrate the signes ( as the water in Baptisme , and the bread and wine in the Supper ) is no other thing , then to depute and make them serue to an holy and sacred vse , by the publike declaration of the ordinance of God , made to this ende : and not to chaunge them as touching theyr nature and substance . The which ( vanishing away , and beeing abolished ) there should remaine no more of the signe , nor ( consequently ) of the Sacrament . Euen so then , as the water in baptisme , after consecration , abideth water , without that the nature or substance thereof in ought chaungeth or altereth : So also the bread and wine in the Supper , remaine as touching theyr substance , such after consecration , as they were before : else should there not bee Analogie , nor mutuall agreement betweene the signe , and the thing signified . For what comparison or conformitie is there betweene the accidents of bread , and the truth of the body of Iesus Christ ? Seeing that the accidents of bread , as the whitenesse and roundnesse , destitute of theyr substance , ( as the Sophisters doo falsly imagine ) could not nourish , nor sustaine the bodie : and by that meane , should not be proper to signifie , that the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ doo nourish and sustaine our soules . This then must bee holden for a thing resolued , that the bread and the wine abide in their substance : which thing is clearely prooued by that which Iesus Christ ( speaking of that hee giuen his Disciples to drinke in the Supper ) calleth it , namely : fruite of the Vine . Which cannot bee applyed to accidents , but ought necessarily to bee vnderstood of wine in it proper substance . Also by that which Saint Paul saith : calling the Elements of the Supper three seuerall times bread and wine : yea after they haue beene consecrated . Also by that which hee sayeth else-where : Wee which are many , are one bread and one body : for as much as wee are all partakers of one selfe-same bread . For there hee will teach vs by the comparison of bread and wine , hee proposeth vnto vs , that as it is composed of many graines , so pasted and mingled together , that one cannot distinguish nor seperate one from an other : So also ought all the faithfull in the Church to be so conioyned and vnited together in one selfe-same body , that it seemeth and appeareth , they are members one of an other . Now very foolish and from the purpose should this comparison be , if the bread which we eate in the Supper , and vpon which this comparison is founded , were not true bread . Also by that which Gelacius Bishop of Rome , writing against Eutiches saith : The Sacraments ( saith he ) which we take , is a thing diuine : and neuerthelesse doth it not cease to bee substance and nature of bread and wine . Also by that which writeth Theodoret in his first Dialogue , and in these proper termes : The Lord hath honoured with the name of his body and of his bloud , the visible signes which doo represent them : neuerthelesse without changing the nature of them , but onely adding grace to nature . The same Author in the second Dialogue , speaking likewise of the bread and wine , which are distributed in the Supper , saith as followeth : After sanctification these misticall signes depart not from their nature : for they abide in their proper substance , forme , and figure . By meanes whereof , one seeth and handleth them after consecration , nor more nor lesse then he did before . Also by that which saith S. Iohn Chrisostome , writing to the Monke Cesarius , whose words are such . In the Supper we call that which is presented bread , before it be sanctified : and after sanctification thereof , by the diuine grace , and meane of the Minister , it hath no more the name bread , but of the body of the Lord : neuerthelesse , the nature of the bread is there still remaining . By the passages aforesaid , as well of the holy scripture , as of the auntient Doctors , and others , which might be yet alledged for this purpose , it appeareth , that the bread and wine in the Supper abide alwayes ( as hath bene said ) in their proper nature and substance , as well after consecration , as before . And it must not be doubted , that the faith of the auncient Church hath not euer bene such : and that transubstantiation was not setled nor holden in the Romane Church for an Article of faith , vntill the time of Innocent the third . To gainesay and reiect whatsoeuer hath bene said touching the nature and substance of signes , which remaine after consecration , the aduersaries of this doctrine do ordinarily alledge , that which Iesus Christ saith , speaking of the bread in the institution of the Supper : Take eate , this is my body : And resting vpon the naturall , and proper signification of the words , they obstinately defend , that the substance of bread vanisheth in the consecratiō : and that there remaineth no other substance , but that of the body of Iesus Christ . The reason thereof is , because they obserue not the figures and maner of speaking ; which be ordinarie and vsuall in the holy scripture , alwayes , and as often as the matter of the Saments is questionable . For then the name of the things signified , is ordinarily attributed to the signes , which do signifie and represent them : as the name of a couenant is attributed to Circumcision : because it was deputed to signifie and confirme the same . The Lambe , for like reason , is called the Passeouer : and Baptisme , the washing of regeneration : not because they bee like and semblable things , as the signes and mysteries signified by them : but for the conformitie that is betweene them , the signes ( as saith Saint Augustine ) take oftentimes the name of the things which they represent . The error then commeth , because they take and vnderstand the fashions and maners of figuratiue speeches , as if they were proper and naturall . Now that this kinde of speaking : Take yee , and eate yee , This is my body , is figuratiue , it appeareth by that which our Lord Iesus Christ addeth after the Cup , saying : This Cup is the new Testament in my bloud , which is shead for you . Where he calleth the Cup , Testament , and new Couenant in his bloud . Wherein it behoueth necessarily to confesse , that there is a figure , and that without the same , they cannot well vnderstand , nor fitly interpret the said passages : For it is a thing manifest , that a couenant ( which is a contract and bargaine betweene parties , made and conceiued vnder a certaine promise and word ) is not wine . And neuerthelesse it is so called by figure : for as much as the wine which is distributed in the Supper , and as the seale , by which the said couenant is sealed , and the faith thereof confirmed . By such , and like manner , this sentence [ This is my body ] which is as much to say , as this is the new Testament in my body , which is giuen for you , must bevnderstood and expounded . For as by the effusion of his bloud , the new Testament was confirmed : so was it also by the death of his body . And a better Interpreter of the words of Iesus Christ , then Iesus Christ himselfe , must not bee sought for . For certaine it is , that what he hath said of the Cup , is as it were a glasse , & cleare and familiar exposition of that he had more briefly and obscurely said of the bread . This also is proued by that which S. Paul saith : The bread which we breake , is it not the Communion of the body of Christ ? which is a manner of figuratiue speech . For as much as ( to speake and vnderstand properly ) the bread , which is a corporeall and materiall thing , is not the Communion which we haue in the body of Iesus Christ , which is a spirituall and inuisible thing . And neuerthelesse it is so called , because it is the signe thereof , to represent it vnto vs , and to assure vs of the same . As commonly we cal the signed and sealed Letter , which containeth the declaration of the last will of a man , his Testament : although it be not his Testament , but is properly the declaration , which he hath verbally made of his said will. But it is so called , because it is the instrument and testimonie thereof . Now , as the scripture and auncient Fathers , as well to recommend and aduance the dignitie of the signes , and to hinder therby the contempt of them : as for the agreement and likenesse which is betweene the signes , & the thing signified , haue sometimes attributed the name of the same things signified , to the signes which represent them : and speaking of signes , haue vsed figuratiue speeches . At some other times also haue they spoken of them properly , to take away all occasion of abuse thereof , and to hinder that in taking the signes without any distinction , for the things by them signified , men should attribute to them the effects , which appertaine not but to the things onely which they signifie . Of these two diuers reasons , & maners of speaking , examples there are , as well in the scriptures , as in the auncient Fathers . Of the first , we haue an example in Circumcision , when it is called by figure a Couenant . Gen. 17. 13. And of the secōd , is there likewise an example in the 11. verse of the same Chapter : where Circumcision is properly called a signe of the Couenant . Another example there is , of the first maner of speaking which is figuratiue , in Exodus 12. 11. where the Lambe is called the Passeo-uer of the Lord. And of th● second maner of speaking which is proper , the example i● in the same Chapter & 3. verse , where the blood of the lambe is named a signe . In like manner and sort , when in the scripture mention is made of the Supper , sometimes is it there spoken of bread by figure . As when it is called the bodie of Iesus Christ : or the Communion of the bodie , as before hath bene sayd : and sometimes is it also taken properly , as when it sayd : Whosoeuer shall eate of this bread . Also , Let euery man then prooue himselfe , and so eate of this bread . The like diuersitie in two manners of speaking , is oftentimes founde among the auncient Fathers , in the matter of the Supper : For sometimes they speake of bread by figure , calling it the bodie of Iesus Christ . As Saint Ciprian , when hee saith : that the bodie of the Lorde is taken with filthie hands , and his blood drunke with a prophane and polluted mouth . And when hee saith elsewhere that we sucke his blood , and fasten our tongues in the woundes of our Redeemer . And S. Ierome , when he saith : that Euxuperius Bishop of Tholoze , bare the bodie of our Lord in a little Oziar Pannyer , and his blood in a Glasse . Saint Chrisostome also , when he writeth : that Iesus Christ doth not only suffer himselfe to be seene , but also to be touched and eaten : and that the toothe be fastened in his fleshe , and touched with the tongue . And Saint Augustine : With what care take we heede , when the body of Iesus Christ is administred vnto vs , that nothing thereof fall from our hands to the earth . All which , with theyr semblable Sentences , are figuratiue : and there is no doubt , but to well and fitly interpret them , they that read them ought to bee taught , that in the same , the name of the thing signified , is applyed to the signes which doo signifie the same : which thing may easily bee gathered out of other sentences , and passages of the said Auncients : where speaking properly of the bread and wine , distributed in the Supper : they call them signes and figures . As Tertullian : Iesus Christ ( saith hee ) tooke bread , gaue it to his Disciples ▪ and made his body : when hee saith : This is my body : that is to say , a figure of my body . And Ciprian : by the wine , is shewed the bloud of Christ . Also in the Sermon which hee made of the Supper of the Lord : As often as we do this , wee whet not the teeth to byte , but wee breake and distribute the holy bread in true faith : By the which wee distinguish the diuine and humane matter . Also in the Sermon hee made de Chrismate ; The Lord hath giuen with his owne hands bread and wine vpon the table , on which hee made his last meale with his Disciples : but vpon the Crosse , hee gaue vnto the souldiers , his body to be wounded , to the ende hee might so much the more deepely imprint the truth in his Disciples : and that they should expound to the people , how the bread and wine were his body and bloud : and how the Sacrament agreeeth with the thing , for the which it was instituted . And also how a Sacrament is made of two things , and therefore is named with two names , and one selfe-same name is giuen to that which signifieth , and to that which is signified . And Saint Basile : Wee propose the figures and patternes of the sacred body and bloud of Iesus Christ . And Saint Augustine : The Lord feared not to say : This is my body : when hee gaue the signe of his body . Also the Lord receiued Iudas to his Supper , wherein hee commended and gaue to his Disciples the figure of his bodie . And Saint Ierome : After hee had eaten the Pascall Lambe with his Disciples , he tooke bread , which strengtheneth the heart of man , and passed to the true Sacrament of the Passeouer . To the ende that as Melchisedecke had done before in his figure , he should also represent there his true body . S. Ambrose : This Sacrament is a figure of the true body and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ . Chrisostome : He hath prepared this table , to the ende he might shewe vs daily the bread and wine in mysterie and similitude of the bodie and bloud of Christ . And sometimes it happeneth , that one Doctor in this matter expoundeth an other . As one may perceiue it in the conference of two passages : the one of S. Augustine alreadie alledged : and the other of Tertullian , in the booke De Corona militis : where hee saith : Wee very hardly suffer any thing of our bread and wine to fall vpon the ground . And in stead of that which S. Augustine saith to the same purpose , he saith : ( as hath before bene recyted ) we carefully regard , that nothing of the body of our Lord , fall vpon the ground . Now as in diuers passages the auncient Fathers ( as hath bin declared ) haue vsed the two foresaid maners , speaking of the Supper , now by figure , now simply and properly : so it is sometimes found , that in one selfe-same place these two manners of speaking haue beene vsurped in their writings . As in a Canon of the Councell of Niece , where it is said : It was thus concluded of the table of the Lord , and of the mysterie which is therevpon : that is to say , of the worthy body and bloud of Iesus Christ. At the table of the Lord , we ought not to abide tyed here below to the bread and wine , which bee there proposed : but to lift vp our hearts on high by faith , and meditate , that on this holy table , is proposed vnto vs , the Lambe of God , which taketh vpon him the sinnes of the world ; which is sacrificed of the Priests , and not slaine . And in communicating truly with his precious body and bloud , we ought to beleeue that these things be signes of our resurrection . Whence we may see , how the Fathers in one selfe-same place , haue spoken properly , calling bread and wine , the signes and Elements , which be presented in the Supper : and also by figure , naming the same signes , the Lambe of God , which taketh vppon him the sinnes of the world . By that which is said , touching the said two manners of speaking , they which read the scripture , and auncient Authors , ought to be admonished , carefully to regard , that for default of well distinguishing the places , where the said speeches are vsurped , they do not confound them : taking that which ought to be vnderstood by figure , as if it were spoken properly : and that which is said properly , as if it were vnderstood by figure . And it behoueth them alwayes to remember in the reading , as well of the scripture , as of the auncient Fathers , what S. Augustine hath written in his booke De doctrina Christiana . We must beware ( saith hee ) that we take not a figuratiue speech , according to the letter : For herevnto must that bee referred which the Apostle saieth : The letter killeth : and the spirit giueth life . So that to vnderstand that which is spoken by figure , as if it were spoken properly , is fleshly wisedome . And in the end of the Chapter he hath one memorable sentence : namely , that it is a miserable bondage of the soule , to take the signes , for the things signified : and not to be able to lift vp the eye of the spirit aboue the corporall creature , to draw eternall life . To come to the third part of the Supper , which is the spirituall and heauenly thing , represented & proposed there vnto vs , as well in the Elements , as in the whole action : the Ministers say , that it is Iesus Christ crucified , and offered on the Crosse to God his Father , for the whole and perfect expiation , and satisfaction of all the sinnes of the world . And that to make vs enioy the fruite of this sacrifice , and to apply vnto our selues the righteousnesse , forgiuenesse of sinnes , life , the grace of God , and all other fauours and blessings , which by the same sacrifice , haue bene purchased and obtained for vs : the word and Sacraments haue bene left and ordained for vs , chiefly that of the Supper : wherein , as in a picture , we behold Iesus Christ suffering for vs , the paines and sorrowes of death , paying our debts , cancelling and adnulling the hand-writing which was contrarie to vs : bearing vpon him our malediction , to free vs from the same : and by his obedience reconciling vs to God his Father , and appeasing his wrath towards vs. All which things are represented and assured vnto vs in the Supper : when with a true faith we present our selues there , to celebrate the same . The Supper then was not ordained to be a propitiatorie sacrifice ( as the Doctors do teach , and as they falsly beleeue in the Romane Church ) but to be a Sacrament , to the ende to renue and alwayes conserue the memorie which wee ought constantly to retaine of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christe . Now , betweene a sacrifice , and a Sacrament , there is great difference . For as much as in a sacrifice , we present our oblations vnto God : and in a Sacrament , God contrariwise offereth and communicateth vnto vs , his graces and gifts . Also in a sacrifice for sinne , there is the death and effusion of the bloud of the Host and sacrifice , and not in a Sacrament : but the onely perception and applycation of the fruite and effects of the sacrifice . In the Supper then , Iesus Christe is not againe sacrificed : but the fruites of his obedience , and merite of his sacrifice are there distributed and receiued by the faithfull . Of the reasons aforesaid , do the Ministers conclude , that it is blasphemy and sacriledge , to call the bread of the Masse , of a Romish Priest , a wholsome host . And if for proofe therof , they wold alledge the Fathers , in whose writings is found , that they call sometimes the Supper an oblation and sacrifice : The Ministers answere , that first it nought appertaineth to the Masse of the Priests : between which & the Supper , there is no agreement . And afterwards , that what the Fathers haue said , they neuer vnderstood it of the propitiatory sacrifice : by which remission of sinnes is gotten and obtained . And they haue neuer beleeued nor thought , that there was any other sacrifice to appease the wrath of God , and obtaine reconciliation and agreement betweene him and men , then the onely sacrifice of Iesus Christ , made by him alone , one onely time vpon the Crosse . Three things then in briefe , doo the Ministers say : first , that there neither is , nor can be other sacrificer of the new Testament , then Christ Iesus . The reasons are , because there is none but he , of whom it hath bene said : Thou art a Priest for euer , after the order of Melchisedeck . Also there is none but he , to whom may agree , and be fitly applyed the conditions and essentiall qualities of a sacrificer , and the sacrifice : Which are , that the Priest be holy , innocent , without spot , seperated from sinners , and made higher then the heauens : which needed not to offer daily sacrifices , first for his owne sinnes , and then for the sinnes of the people . Also there is none but he , which is , nor could bee Mediator betweene God and men : which could satisfie the diuine iustice : which is capable to beare and sustaine the wrath of God : which could tame and conquer death : which by his death , and proper bloud , could worke the confirmation of the new Testament : and which ( to bee briefe ) could in fauour and contemplation of his merits and dignitie , obtaine of God remission of sinnes , and the other graces needfull for them which trust in him , and instantly desire him . Secondly the Ministers say , that there is no other sacrifice for sinne , but that of Iesus Christ : That he is the onely Lambe which beareth the sinnes of the world : that there is nothing but his bloud , whereby our filthinesse is washed : To bee short , that God taketh pleasure in no other sacrifice nor oblation : and that hee requireth no other burnt sacrifice nor offering for sinne . And that therefore Iesus Christe ( as it is written of him in the rolle of the lawe ) is come , to doo and accomplish the will of God his Father . Thirdly , they say of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ , that it was one onely , and once offered by himselfe : without that it was euer needfull afterwardes to repeate and reiterate the same , considering the perfection and vertue thereof , by which sinne is abolished , and absolute and eternall sanctification obtained to all the elect : as it appeareth in the 9. and 10. of the Hebrewes . By meanes whereof , no lesse blasphemy it is , nor a thing lesse contrarie to the doctrine and meaning of the Apostle , to approue the repetition and reiteration of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ , then the pluralitie of sacrifices for sinne . And if the Doctors would ( as they wontedly haue ) to disguise and colour such an abuse , shewe forth their distinction betweene the propitiatory and applicatory sacrifice , saying ▪ that the Priests pretend not in their Masses to sacrifice Iesus Christ for other end , then to apply the merite of his death to those , for whom they celebrate the same . The Ministers answere , that in so dooing , they should attribute vnto Iesus Christ , more then they do : because all the fruite of his sacrifice commeth vnto vs , by the application thereof . As healing commeth not so much by the confection and preparation of the medicine , as by the application of the same . Furthermore , the Ministers would willingly demaund of our Maisters , by what meane the benefite of the death of Iesus Christ , was applied to the Fathers before his comming , seeing that as then they did sing no Masses ? Well seeth euerie man of any spirite or iudgement , that such distinctions are friuolous , and onely inuented to obscure the truth , and dazell the eyes of the simple and ignorant . For Iesus Christ who hath offered the sacrifice , is hee himselfe , which applyeth the same vnto vs , by his spirite , his word , and his Sacraments . To returne then to their former speech , and declare why the Fathers haue called the Supper , and all the action thereof a sacrifice . It behoueth to note , that there are many sorts of sacrifices in the Supper : As the sacrifice of a contrite heart , offered by publike confession of sinnes which there is made . After the sacrifice of our body , there offered by publike prayer , which followeth the said confession . Thirdly , the sacrifice of praise there offered , when they sing Psalmes after the confession and prayer . After commeth the preaching of the Gospell , ( which is called a sacrifice , Rom. 15. ) : then the confession and prayers ended , the Minister presenteth himselfe to the people , to preach vnto them the word of God. The Almes ( which is an other kinde of sacrifice ) was heretofore brought forth in the Supper by the faithfull : which would therby testifie , not only their remembrance of the graces & benefites of God : but also their loue & desire they had to relieue the necessities of their poore neighbors . Besides all these Sacrifices , there are yet in the Supper two particular sacrifices , wherof mention is made in the writings of the Fathers . The bread and the wine which were chosen and taken of the Almes , brought thither for the poore , and were consecrated : that is to say , deputed and appointed to the holy and sacred vse of the Supper . The other is the memorie of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christ , celebrated and repeated in all the action of the Supper . The which , for this reason is called a Sacrifice by S. Iohn Chrisostome , vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes , when he saith : We make not euery day other Sacrifice , then that of Iesus Christ. But rather ( saith he correcting himselfe ) we make the memorie of that Sacrifice . S. Ambrose calleth it the memorie of our redemption : To the end , that we remembring our Redeemer , may obtaine of him increase of his graces in vs. S. Augustine yet proposeth it more clearly , vnder a comparison which he bringeth of the dayes of the passion , and resurrection of Iesus Christ : which he thus applieth : when the Feast of Easter approacheth , we vse oft times this maner of speech : To morrow , or within two daies , we haue the passion or resurrection of Iesus Christ . That cannot properly be vnderstood of the day wherein Iesus Christ suffered death ( which is long since passed ) : but onely of the memorie of his death , which is solempnized and celebrated , as this day , euery yeare . A little after , to appropriate his comparison , he addeth : Iesus Christ , hath not he bene one only time offered in himselfe ? And neuerthelesse in the Sacrament of the Supper , not only on Easter day , but euery day also , is hee offered to the people . Also elsewhere : The flesh and blood of this Sacrifice , were before the comming of Iesus Christ , promised by the figures of Sacrifices . In the passion of Iesus Christ , they were giuen and offered in trueth : And after the Ascention of Iesus Christ into Heauen , they are celebrated by the Sacrament of remembrance . Of these and many other like passages , one may deduct , that the Fathers haue often called the Supper a Sacrifice : by reason that in the same , the memory of the Sacrifice of Iesus Christ is renued and celebrated . The name of Sacrifice , is by the Auncients often also applied to the Almes , which the faithfull brought forth in the Supper . As by Iustin Martyr in the second Apologie : by S. Augustin in the 20. chap. of the 20. book Cotra Faust : by S. Ciprian in the booke de Elimosina : by S. Iohn Chrysostome , Hom. 46. vpon S. Mathew . Which thing may also be verified by the Canō of the Masse it selfe , where it is said : We offer to thy maiestie part of thy gifts & benefits : which ought to be referred to the Almes of the faithfull , which the Minister in the name of the whole Church offered to God. They haue sometimes also called the praiers there made , Sacrifices . As S. Ciprian vpon the Lords Prayer . And Eusebius in the 7. of the Ecclesiasticall History . Tertullian in the 3. booke against Marcion : where , alledging that written in Malachy , [ of the cleane offering ] , which ought to be made vnto God , from the rysing of the Sunne , to the going downe of the same , saith : that ought to be vnderstood of the Hymnes and praises of God. Which S. Ierome ( expounding the passage aforesaid ) doth also confirme . For conclusion of this matter , the Ministers say : that all the passages of the bookes of the Fathers : wherin mention is made of Sacrifice , in the speech of the Supper , ought to be referred to one of these kinds aforesaid . And that it shal neuer be found , that they haue said or written , or yet euer haue thought , that there was any other sacrifice * propiciatory , then that alone , which Iesus Christ in his owne body once offered vpō the Crosse for our redemptiō . And that by means therof , it is certain , that in the Christiā church , he ought to be acknowledged , the priest of the new Testament . And as touching the other sacrifices , namely : of a Contrite heart : of the Mortification of the fleshe : of Praises and Almes : and of the shewing forth , and memorie of the death of Iesus Christ : they say , that it generally belongeth to all the Church to offer them : And that there is no faithfull , nor any member in the whole bodie of the Church , which in this respect , is not a Priest . As saith S. Peter in the 2. Chapter of his first Epistle . And S. Iohn in the first Chapter of the Apocalips . And that we ought for this cause , to offer in the Supper such Sacrifices vnto God : As appeareth by the same Cannon of theyr Masse , by them euilly vnderstood , and applied to the Sacrifice , which they pretend to make of the body & blood of Iesus Christ ; where it is said : For the which , we offer vnto thee : or who offer vnto thee , &c. Our saying of the Sacrifice , that it is common to all the Church , to offer vnto God , Sacrifice of praise : ought not to be slaunderously interpreted : as if we would confound the Ecclesiasticall Ministery , with the sayd Priesthood ; and by that meanes , ouerthrow and disturbe the order of the Church : attributing to each one , authoritie and power to gouerne the same . For we know well , that the callings be different among the people of God : And that it is needfull , there be in the Church , Pastors , and Doctors , and other Ministers ( as Deacons and Elders ) to well guide and edifie the same : as well by the daily preaching of the word , as by the carefull and diligent execution of other things which concerne their charges . But it behooueth notwithstanding , to distinguish such callings which be particular , from the Priesthood aforesaid : which ought to be generall , and common ( as is said ) to the whole Church . It shall now be easie for all them , which will diligently obserue the things here before discouered , and shewed forth by the word of God , to vnderstand and iudge , that the Masse , such as is now celebrated in the Romane Church , is a whole corruption and ouerthrowing of the institution of the Supper , which Iesus Christ made , and left in his Church . So that it should be now impossible to acknowledge therein , one onely trace or marke of it first ordinance . For of a Sacrament which Iesus Christ left in his Church , to edifie and entertaine the same in a present memorie of his death , haue they made a sacrifice ; whereby the remembrance of that of Iesus Christ , hath bin wholly buried and interred . And herein is there a maruellous thing , and worthy to be well marked . That is to say , that that which appertaineth not but to the sonne of God onely , and was impossible for any other but him to do : as to sacrifice for sin , to reconcile men vnto God , to appease his wrath towards them , and to make intercession , to obtaine for them his fauour and aide ; the Priests do attribute to themselues . And that which to them was lawfull , and commaunded , and also possible and easie to do : that is to say , to solemnize the memorie of Iesus Christ , & in taking and breaking , distributing and eating of the bread , and drinking the wine , to shewe forth his death : they haue wholly cast aside . So that one may say , that the Priests do nothing of all that which Iesus Christ did , and commaunded to be done in the Supper . And that which he did vpon the Crosse , and that he neuer commaunded man to do , the Priests dare enterprise , and will do the same . The errors and abuse , as well of Transubstantiation , as of the Priesthood , and expiatorie sacrifice , and of the repetition , of the same , which be the principall parts , and as it were the foundations of the Masse , haue bene heretofore confuted , and sufficiently conuinced by the word of God : and by the reasons which haue bene alledged in the declaration of the parts of the Supper . And nothing more remaineth to cast downe this Idoll , but to shewe , that that which is in the Masse , ( besides the abuses aforesaid ) is not better , nor better founded vpon the word of God. For the adoration which there is made of the bread and wine , is an Idolatrie , condemned and accursed of God. And it is not like , that Iesus Christ ( instituting the Supper ) would not haue ordained it , that S. Paul ( recyting this institution , as he had receiued it of the Lord ) would not haue taught it : and that the auncient Church would haue omitted the same , had it bene a thing wherein God had bene any way honoured . Afterward , the seperation of the Priest from the people , is directly contrary to the Article of the faith , of the Communion of the Church : and to the ende , for which the Supper was ordained , which is to confirme and entertaine due societie among the faithfull , and to binde them alwayes more straightly one to an other . And none can say , but that it is an intollerable presumption , and a manifest contempt and disdaine of the residue of Gods people . And a plaine mockery is that which the Doctos alledge to excuse and couer such a sacriledge : to wit , that the Masse of the Priests ceaseth not to bee good , when those that are there present will not comunicate . For first it is forbidden them to eate alone in the Supper . And a Supper it is not , where there is not a Communion : as Saint Paul teacheth , reproouing the Corinthians , because they departed one from an other in the celebration of their Supper . When ( sayth he ) yee come together therefore into one place , this is not to eate the Supper of the Lord : For euery man , when they should eate , taketh his owne supper afore . And teaching in the ende of the Chapter , the forme which they ought to hold , hee sayth vnto them : Wherefore my bretheren , when yee come together to eate , tarry one for another . Furthermore , oft times it happeneth , that there are not in their Masse , but the Priest and the little Clarke , which answereth him : whom they will not receiue to communicate with them . Also , how can they excuse the Masses which are sung in Monasteries : where the people are forbidden to communicate with the Monkes , which celebrate the same ▪ Moreouer , it is ordinarily seene in great Parishes of this Cittie of Paris , and else-where , euen vppon the dayes that the people Communicate ; that they are seperated from the Priests , who do their businesse apart , and wil not vouchsafe to feed & communicate with them vpon one table . Also , what communion is there betweene the Priests and the people , seeing that in stead of breaking in the assembly , one selfe-same bread , ( to the end that all the partakers thereof , should bee by that meane conioyned and more straightly closed in one body ) each one hath his owne particular : the Priest , one more great , and the people , one lesse ? Seeing also that the Cup is not any way distributed to them ? Furthermore , what dutie do the Priests , to inuite and exhort the people , to communicate with them ? yea the Bishops themselues ? who would at this day repute it great shame to communicate with crafts-men , and other inferior people . To conclude , had the Doctors well noted the custome of the Fathers , which caused the Cathecumenians , & others there ( not prepared to communicate ) to depart the place where the Communion was celebrated : and that likewise which S. Iohn Chrisostome saith thereof : they would shame to defend such an abuse & impietie , as is that of their Masse . And that the people may not bee ignorant of that , which these holy Doctors therof saith , we will translate the same , word for word . It is in vaine that the daily sacrifice is made : It is in vaine that we abide at the Aultar ; there is no person which there communicateth . I say not this to the end that yee communicate in any sort soeuer ; but that ye yeeld your selues worthy thereof : Art thou not worthy to communicate ? so art thou not worthy to pray . Also a litle after : If some one were called to a banquet , should wash his hands , and sitting at the table , should not eate , nor taste ought of the meates which should there be serued : should he not dishonour and wrong him that inuited him ? had it not bin better he had not come there ? Euen so it is with thee . Thou art come , thou hast sung the Psalme with the rest of the people : thou hast confessed that thou wast of the number of the worthy , in not departing with them which are vnworthy . How then abidest thou , and doost not perticipate of the table of the Lord ? Thou sayest I am vnworthy . I answere thee , that thou art so : whereby also vnworthy of the Communion of prayers . Thirdly the gobbets and offalls of Gospels and Epistles , the Symbole , praier , & other peeces of the scripture , brought all confused , and not hanging together , said and proposed to the people in an vnknowne language ( against the expresse commaundement of God , and without any edification of the congregation ) is no other thing , then a vaine vsurpation of the name of God , against the expresse prohibition which he hath made thereof . And such robes are too straight and short , to couer the shame and filthinesse of the Masse . Fourthly , what an execrable abuse is it to say , that the Masse serueth to obtaine remission of sinnes ; not onely for the quicke , but also for the dead ? And that the Priests ( passing yet further , not to forget , or leaue any blasphemy behind ) do diuide their hoste into three parts : faigning one part to be for them in heauen : an other for them which are on earth : and the third for them in Purgatorie . For the Sacrament which is not ordained but for confirmation of the faith of the word : extendeth not further then the Ministerie , nor the Ministerie further then this life . As then it is so , that they which are in heauen , and they likewise whom they faine to be in Purgatorie , are dead and departed from this world : we must necessarily conclude , that as the word cannot be preached to them , so also the Sacraments cannot be administred to them . And if they be not administred to them , that they can profit them nothing . The end of the Resolution . Answeres to the last obiections proposed by the Doctors , touching the Supper . THe Ministers say , that many things there are in the said obiections , impertinent to the matter in question : as that they demaund , how long the doctrine abode in it puritie , touching the Supper , and the other articles of Religion . Wherevnto they answere , that from the time of the Apostles themsemselues , there were heretikes and Antichrists : as Ebion , Cerinthus , Simon Magus , the Samaritanes , and others : who by their errors ▪ and heresies , went then about to peruert the Aposto lique Churches , and corrupt the pure doctrine which was therein . Wherevntothe Apostles , by all possible wayes , did manfully oppose themselues : reuoking and euer reducing all things to their first institution , and foundation of the pure word of God : as we see , did S. Paul towards the C●rinthians , and Galathians : whose Churches , although he had well planted and watered , were neuerthelesse corrupred in his life time , as well in manners , as in doctrine . And to that which the Doctors demaund , how long after the decease of the Apostles , continued the puritie of the doctrine and Religion in the Church of God , as well in the Article of the Supper , as in others : the Ministers answere , that so long time it there continued , as the word of God was followed and preached . To that which the Doctors say afterwards , ( traducing the Supper celebrated in the reformed Church ) that the Ministers abuse those that are there present , nought else giuing them , but nothing betweene two dishes : the Ministers answere : that this blason much better fitteth the Doctors , then them , because they present not to them whom they haue summoned to their Masses , but accidēts of indiuisible waues , and the sight onely of the formes of bread and wine to feed them withall . A litle after do they call their sacrifice of the Masse most precious : whervpon the Ministers grant that they haue reason so to exault it : & to attribute thervnto , so precious and magnificall a tytle , for the great reuenewes and riches , which this precious sacrifice hath brought vnto them : wherof may well be said , that it hath bene vnto them a fleece , and golden Myne , more abundant then euer was that of Iason ; or all the Mynes of the East . In as much as they haue made the world beleeue ( and chiefly the founders of Abbayes , Priories , and other benifices ) that their sacrifices , were vaileable to them for the redemption , remedie , and health of theyr soules . Afterwards , without all shame do the Doctors call the Supper of the Lord detestable , because there is nought therein offred ( say they ) but common bread & wine . Whervnto the Ministers answere , that in their Supper is truly presented bread and wine to the people ; which after consecration , abide in their substance , as before : but they denie that therfore the said bread and wine be common : by reason ( as heretofore hath bene amply declared to the Doctors ) that by the preaching of the Gospell , and recytall of the ordinance of God , both the one and the other is changed ( as is said ) touching the vse , but not touching the nature . To that wherein the Doctors do charge the Ministers , to make insurrections , conuenticles , coniurations , conspiracies , and secret practises against the state of their Prince , vnder colour & pretext of their Supper ; the Ministers answer , that the same was not to impugne their doctrine , but rather shamelesly to despight and slaunder them . And that the fidelitie of those of the reformed religion , hath bene knowne and proued , to the expense of their bloud , and losse of their liues . So that the King and his Councell , by his Edict , hath declared them to haue bene very faithfull and well affected subiects to his Maiestie . And wee must not maruell if the Doctors thus slaunder the reformed Churches ; for as much as the Christians in all times haue bin accused of like crimes , by the enemies of the truth . As it appeareth by the Apologie of Tertullian , & the booke of S. Augustine , de Ci●itate Dei : by the Tract of Saint Ciprian against Demetrius : and by the booke of Arnobius , which he wrote against the Gentiles . But the Ministers much maruell , how the Doctors are so ill aduised , to alledge the suppers celebrated in the reformed Churches , to verifie their accusations ; seeing that the same at this day , being throughout publikely done , in the eyes and presence of them that will behold them : there is nothing therein hidden , and whereof each one ( if he will ) may not easily be informed . But this is the zeale and great charitie of my Lords our maisters ( whereof they haue heretofore protested , & that by inuocatiō of Gods name ) which so transporteth them to slaunder , without shame or shewe , those whose iustice in that matter , shall answere for them before God and men . Touching that which the Doctors ●●erwards say , that in the Supper of the Ministers , no consecration is made , of the matter of bread & wine , which be there proposed . The Ministers do confesse , that the bread and wine which be truly in their Supper , are not consecrated in sort as the Doctors pretend to consecrate them in their Masse : For so they approue not such a consecration . But yet do they maintaine , that there is in their Supper , consecration of the matters aforesaid , in sort , as they in their articles , and resolution haue heretofore very largely declared . The Doctors for proofe and confirmation of that aforesaid , do adde , that it belongeth not to all persons indifferently to consecrate the matter of the Sacraments ; but to them onely , which are ordained by the laying on of hands of the Romane Bishops : wherevnto the Ministers for answer , say , that the first point , they confesse : and also ( as else-where they haue said ) that calling is necessarie to such a purpose . But they denie vnto the Doctors notwithstanding , that this calling is the imposition which they pretend : and the Ministers assure themselues , that their calling is more lawful , and better founded , then is that of the Doctors . Whereas the Doctors propose in the article following ▪ that the Ministers haue not answered them clearly enough to their liking , touching the parts of the Sacrament , and of the word required for the consecration of the matter , which therein is . The Ministers answere , that there is no doubtfulnesse , obscuritie , nor any inuolution in their writings , sauing that which the Doctors will finde therein : the iudgement whereof , the Ministers referre to the vpright readers . And yet they hold it not more straunge that the Doctors finde their writings obscure , then did Saint Paul , that his Gospell was hidden and couert , to them which perished . And in whome the God of this world had blinded the mindes . To that of the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper , for which the Doctors require of the Ministers , a more large declaration , then that they haue giuen in theyr former answere . The Ministers say , that they haue the●evnto clearly answered , albeit the Doctor● bee not satisfied with their 〈◊〉 whereat they nothing wonder , knowing well it is not theyr custome to be contented if one yeeld not to them what they demaund , and desire . Which the Ministers haue not determined to do , much lesse to exceed in their answer the limits and bounds of the scripture ▪ be it in this article of the Supper , or in others : but rather to follow , as neare as possibly they can , the phrase and maner of speaking of the same . By means whereof , for full answere , the Ministers acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christ , bee it in the Supper , or out of the Supper , sauing that which Iesus Christ himselfe declareth in the sixt Chapter of Saint Iohn . Whosoeuer eateth my flesh , and drinketh my bloud , hath eternall life . Also , He that eateth my flesh , and drinketh my bloud , dwe●leth in me , and I in him . Also : As the liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father ▪ And he that eateth me , euen he shall liue by me . To the last Article , which is of Concomitance , the Ministers answere , that the demaund of the Doctors was not so hard but that they had well conceiued it . But they dissembled the same , because they would not loose time to speake and write of such dreames . And they well thought that the Doctors were subtill inough , to vnderstand that in their denying Transubstantiation , it was not to pro●e their Concomitance . Now for their satisfaction , they adde , that they will know no more then that which Iesus Christ himselfe hath taught in his word . That is to say , that in the Supper to participate in his flesh crucified , and bloud shead for the remission of sinnes , it behoueth to take and eate the bread , & drinke the wine which be administred , without any way diuiding or seperating the same . Which thing is also forbidden by the Canons , De Consecr . Dist . 2. C. Cū omne Crimen . Finished on Wednesday the 14. of August , in the yeare aforesaid . This writing being sent , the Ministers went shortly after towards my Lord of Neuers , to shew vnto him , that they for theyr part , had largely treated of this matter : but they well perceiued , that the Doctors by theyr friuolous and impertinent questions , hitherto sought not , but to passe away the time , without ought doing in the decyding of the Supper , and of the Masse . And albeit they fayned ▪ that such demaunds did serue for a preparatiue to this dispute : yet was it to no other end , but not to enter thereinto at all : and to hold things in suspence , vntill length of time should begin to be troublesome : and by that meane , all should break off . That his lyking might be to make the Doctors vnderstand , that without turning this or that way , they should come to end the difference : refuting that which the Ministers had maintained of the Supper , and supporting that which they had condemned in theyr Masse . Which thing he promised them to do . Of which promise , began the Ministers to hope thence forward for some profitable matter , and seruing to the edification of the Readers , and rooting out of the greatest abuse and error that is in the Romane Church . Neuerthelesse , shortly after was it bruted through the Citie , that Doctor Vigor was fallen into a very daungerous disease , and wherof was no hope he should hast●ly recouer : which made the Ministers feare , that they were frustrate of theyr hope . And yet more did they feare , when they vnderstood , that the Doctor de Sainctes , was the same time departed from Paris , and gone towards Monsieur the Cardinal of Lorraine . For they could not otherwise presume , but that they shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris : not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time . Considering ▪ they were not there but by accident : to wit , that de Spina was come thither , to passe further , and make a voyage into Aniou and the other , who was Minister of the Church of Orleance , was lately come forth of prison , where he had beene brought , in the Moneth of Iune next precedent , vpon a false accusation , suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church , which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke , written against the obedience , due to Kings and Princes . Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to so●ourn● so long a time , in a Citie , whither hee came against his lyking . For these causes , they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers , to shew vnto him , the things aforesaid : and tell him , that De Sainctes ( who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor ) was departed thence , without making it knowne when his returne would be : that it was not reason , they should stay there , being incertaine of that which they had to doo : and considering that their Churches had need of them , to execute therin their charges : and that they desired the same . Notwithstanding , in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience , and to abide there , vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris : as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Co●lomiers . For seeing the Doctors were then absent , ( the Lord of Neuers being departed ) the Ministers could doo nothing : not hauing whom to write vnto , nor with whom to conferre . These remonstances being liked by the said Lord , hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing , signed , Lodouico de Gonzague : and below , Varin : Secretarie . Dated 26. of August : wherein were declared the occasions , here before touched , and remōstrance of the Ministers ▪ with promise made by the said Lord , to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make , to be brought vnto them . And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci , S. George , who was charged with this businesse . Also , the Ministers promised to be readie , were it to returne to Paris : or else to answere from the place where they should be , as often as the Doctors should write . These things thus done and passed , the Ministers returned presently after ; supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors . But they haue attended , and yet do attend , without that there hath bene any appearance thereof . And they vnderstood nothing of that matter , sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris . In the tytles whereof , some found meane to enterlace the word [ Conference ] , to make shewe vnto the world , that it was something , touching the former disputations . And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers . So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing . For contentation of whom , we haue thought meet , to bring to light what was done concerning the same : reseruing to another time , to publish what the Doctors ( when they shall do it ) shall write against it : and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere , if they can recouer the same . In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained . And to pray the Father of lights , to shead more & more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church , to the true vnderstanding of his holy word : for the restauration , and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne , our Lord. So be it , the 8. of Nouember , 1566. FINIS . A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation . THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following . The first day of the Disputation , which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly , 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God : and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God : and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible : to call the one Canonicall , and the other Apocripha . The second day , being Wednesday , the 10. of Iuly , touching the same matter : with the resolution of the Doctors , concluding , that it is by the authoritie of the Church , that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God : And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary : That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect . The third day , being Thursday , the 11. of Iuly , containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles : and why it is so called . The fourth day , being Friday , the 12. of Iuly : comprehending the resolution of the Doctors : concluding , that it is by the tradition of the Church ▪ that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles : And that of the Ministers , tending to this : that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures . The fift day , being M●nday , the 15. of Iuly : where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie : vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points , contained in the 63. Page . On this Omnipotencie , and the points aboue said , the disputes following : as well by word as by writing , were continued . The sixt day of the Dispute , Tuesday the 16. of Iuly . The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors , 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly . The reply or obiection of the Doctors , against the answere of the Ministers , touching the article of Gods omnipotencie , on Satterday the 20. of Iuly . The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors , sent to them , by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 22. of Iuly , about fiue of the clocke in the euening ▪ the yeare , 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers , sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 25. day of Iuly , about 8 of the clocke in the euening , the yeare , 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors , touching the article of the Almightinesse of God : in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers . Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament . The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next , and other conferences following , according to the order of the said articles . The answere of the Ministers , to the writing of the Doctors , sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers , the 28. of Iuly , about seuen of the clocke in the euening , the yeare , 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie , in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors . The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions . The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors , touching the Supper . A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers , sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois , the first of August , at 7. of the clocke in the euening . Anno. 1566. A briefe aduertisement of the Doctors , vpon the resolution of the Ministers , touching the omnipotencie of God. The obiection of the Supper by the Doctors , against the answeres of the Ministers . The answere of the Ministers , to the writing of the Doctors , and to them sent by my Lord of Niuernois , Wednesday morning , the 7. of August . Anno. 1566. The conclusion and resolution of the points , as well of the Supper , as of the Masse , containing the declaration of that which the Ministers beleeue , and teach in their Churches , by the word of God , concerning the same . Answeres to the last obiections , proposed by the Doctors , touching the Supper . FINIS . Errata . Page a ▪ line 20. For some others , reade any other ▪ Pa. 6. li● 1. next after prayers , read therof . Pa. 26. lin . 7. for therfore , there . Pa. 35. li. vlt. for a it appeareth , as it appeareth Pa. 39. li. 20 ▪ for O●d , God. Pa. 48. lin . 31. Or whether there any , Or whether there be any . Pa. 70. li. 13. After it may be , put in [ only ] Pa. 71 li. 11. but those , then those . P. 73. li. 2. put out not . Pa. 74 li. 3. Angelius , Angelus , Pa. 74 li 29 Hypostali , Hypostasy , pa. 78. li. 33. antecent , antecedent , pa. 80 li 37 without place , with place . pa. 83. li. 29. diuers vertues , a diuers vertue . pa. 84. l. 30 ▪ within , [ with him ] p. 85. li. 36. Pamachiuns , Pamachius . p. 86. li. 27. Cirell , Cyril . pa. 87. in margine , Sect 39. Sect. 29. pa. 88. li 17. read in the margin . Hebr. 4. 14. pa. 89. li 22. put out is . pa. 91. li. 29. spiritualtie , spiritualitie ▪ pa. 92. li. 16. Theodoret , Theodor. pa. 92. li. 21. things better cleared , and things better cleared . pa. 94. li. 2. summoning , ●ytation , li. 5. these words [ they said to be done ] should be in the margine , and not in the text . pa. 103. Lin. 25. the terme piercing , the terme of piercing , pa. 105. Li. 16. these , those , pa. 110. Li. 11. that God made one , that if God made one , pa. 111. Li. 15. Aerilem , sterilem . pa 114. Lin. 33. speaketh , speake . Ead. Lin. 36. p●ace , place . pa. 115. Lin. 33 , dimensions and of bodies , dimentions of bodies pa. 116 Lin. 12. Cod , God , pa. 119 Lin 28 , the contradiction , the like contradiction , pa. 120 Lin 10 clausa , clausae . pa. 121 Lin 24. Imagined , Imagine , pa. 122. Li. 10. octijs , ostijs , pa. 126 Li. 22. into , in , pa. 127 Lin , 11 , Fantasmatiques ▪ Fantastiques , Lin 1● wicith , with , pa. 129 , Lin 7 , that heauens , that the heauens , pa. 136 L. 34 , inequitie , iniquitie . pa. 139. L. 1 , of , for , pa. 140. Lin 33. number & different , number & fashion different , pa 151. Line 7 withstansteth , withstandeth , pa. 155. lin 7. placle , place , pa. 156. Line 24 , Cod , God , pa. 16● . Line 4 , depriuation , deprauation , pa. 173 , Line 34 , scriture , scripture , pa. 180 , Lin 34 , words , workes , pa. 183 , Lin 34 , but they , but he , pa. 191 , Lin 23 , pure care , due care , pa. 195 , Lin 7 , fanets , fanels , Lin 2● , imperfection , in it perfection , pa. 196 , Lin 25 , reception , receiuing , pa , 200 , Line 6 , Artice , Article , pa , 202 , Line 34 , vincentin , vincentium , pa. 207 , Line 31 , vpon solid reason , vpon any solid reason , pa. 209 , Line 33 , Albeit , if , pa , 219 , Line 22. they , read it , pa , 220 , Line 26 , spake , speake , pa , 2●2 , Marg : Psal , 37 , ●3 , Marg. 1 Cor : 13 , 1 Cor : 15 , pa. 233 Line 10 , and he , as he , pa ▪ 237 Line 12 , hath as seales , hath put as seales , pa. 240 Line 24 for the name bread , reade the name of bread . Pa. 250. Margin , right vnder Cap. 10. reade Hom. 17. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A14408-e1260 Rom. 12. 6. Esa . 59. 21. Deut. 18. Rom. 89. 1. Ioh. 22. 27. Ioh. 5. 23. 1. Ioh. 2. 23. Ioh. 14. 9. Matth. 21 27. 1. Cor. I. 22. 1. Cor. 5. 2 1. Tim. 3. 15. Psal . 30 , Notes for div A14408-e3570 Ezech. 13 Heb. 13. I. Cor. 1. 10 Rom. 10. Inter diuinorum voluminum anotantur Historia● . Notes for div A14408-e4700 Rom. 10. Ioh. 5. 24. Notes for div A14408-e5880 1. Cor. 15. Luk. 24. Heb. 11. Notes for div A14408-e6690 Iohn . 8. 2. Tim. 1. Heb. 6. Ier. 32. Act. 12. Act. 5. Tit. 1. Act. 3. 21. Notes for div A14408-e7910 Ioh. 20. 19. The 4. booke . cap. 17. sect . 39 Ioh. 14. Ioh. 12. 26. Act. 7. 1. King. 21. 1 ▪ Pet. 2. Ecclesi . 3. Iohn , 6. Ephes . 1. Li. de vera Circoncisione ad finem . Esay 45. Iere. 18. Rom. 9. Rom. 11. Things impossible with God. yet in these impossibilities is his omnipotencie established . 1. Ioh. 4. 1. Hebr. 10. 1. Cor. 5. Cone . 3. C. 26. 2. Cor. 5. Psal . 37. 28. 1. Cor. 13 ▪ 2. Cor. 6. 1. Cor. 1. Iohn . 14. Ephes . 3. Iohn . 17. 2. Cor. 4. 13. Rom. 10. Ephes . 4. Ioh. 6. 1. Cor. 10. Rom. 10. 9. Math. 26. 1. Cor. 21. 1. Cor. 10. Gen. 17. Exod. 12. Tit. 3. Epist. 23. 1. Cor. 10. 1. Cor. 11. Sermon : de Caen● dom . Epist . ad Rustic . Hom. 6. ad pop . Antioch . Hom. 45. in Iohn . Hom. 27. in 1. Cor. Hom. de Encaenijs . 5 Hom. 26. Lib. 4. Cont. Marcion . Lib. 2. Epist . 3. In liturg su● Psa . 3. & cont Adamant . ca. 20. Chap. 26. in Math. Lib. 4. de sacram . Chap. 5. in Psa . 22. Ps . 51. Rom. 12. Phil. 4. Heb. 13. Chap. 10. Epist 23. Contra Faust lib. 20. cap. 21. * Iesus Christ the onely sacrifice propiciatory of the new Testament . The Sacramēt improperly termed a Sacrifice ; ●y reason of the cōcurrence of these 5. Christiā Sacrifices therin : namely : Contrit●ō , Mortification , Praises , Almes & celebration of the memory of Christ . Euery member of Christs Church a Priest . The Masse is a corruption and ruine of Christs institution in his Supper . The ende of Christs institution in the Sacrament , abolished by the Masse . The Priest in the Masse most impiously vsurpeth the proper offices of Christ himselfe . What Christ in celebration of his Supper hath cōmanded , that the Popish Priests in their Masse neglect : and what Christ hath not commaunded , and is impossible for any but himself to do , dare they attempt to do . 1. Cor. 11. 20. 21. In Epist . ad Ephes . Serm. 3. An excellent note to proue the Masse a shifting forgery 
A55374	----	A dialogue between a popish priest, and an English Protestant. Wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed, and fully examined. / By Matthew Poole, author of Synopsis Criticorum. Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679. 1667 Approx. 323 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 127 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A55374 Wing P2828 ESTC R40270 20844059 ocm 20844059 109465 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A55374) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 109465) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English Books, 1641-1700 ; 2037:5) A dialogue between a popish priest, and an English Protestant. Wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed, and fully examined. / By Matthew Poole, author of Synopsis Criticorum. Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679. The last edition corrected and amended. [15], 234, [5] p. Printed by T.M. for Tho. Passinger, and are to be sold by John Williamson ..., London, : 1672. Handwritten index, p. [5] at end. Misidentified on UMI microfilm as Wing P2830. Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library. Includes bibliographical references. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Protestantism -- Apologetic works. 2003-09 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-09 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-10 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2003-10 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A Popish Priest AND An English Protestant . WHEREIN The Principal Points and Arguments of both RELIGIONS are truly Proposed and fully Examined . By MATTHEW POOLE Minister of the Gospel . The Last Edition corrected and amended . LONDON : Printed by E. Cotes , and are to be sold by S. Tompson at the Bishops-Head in Duck Lane , 1667. TO THE READER . THE variety and differences of Religion , between Protestant and Papist , distract the minds and trouble the hearts of all that have any sense of Religious Concernments . In this distraction every serious man that hath any care of his Souls health , cannot choose but heartily desire and seek for resolution : To obtain this , there can be no better way than to understand and examine the Pretensions and Grounds of both Religions : In order to this , I have endeavoured faithfully to represent , and duly to weigh them in the following Discourse . Wherein though I have not discussed all the Points in Controversie between us and them , yet I have selected the most material , and have discoursed of most , if not all , their weighty and plausible Arguments against the Protestant Religion . And this , I may say , and no knowing Papist , I think , will deny it ; all the other Points will follow the fate of those which are here examined , and live or die with them . I know it will be pretended , that I have managed the Work with partiality and deceit , and that I make the Papist speak what I please , not what they think . This must be said of course , else the Romanists , lose their old wont : Nor shall I , at all think it strange , if in stead of solid Answers , they return Calumnies : their cause requires it ; and no wonder if they that want Truth in their Religion , make lies their Refuge . To silence all clamours , and satisfie all jealousies will be impossible , I shall never attempt it . But for satisfaction of such as are rational and ingenuous , I shall give this following account . 1. God is my witness , that I did diligently endeavour to pick out the strongest Arguments I could find in their best Authors in each Point ; nor have I willingly declined any thing of moment in the Questions here debated : If any Papist think otherwise , let him produce their greater strength , and I hope he shall find it fairly examined . 2. The several Discourses , Arguments and Answers which I put into the Papists mouth ; are such as were first taken out of their mouths , and so it is but a piece of Iustice and Restitution to return them thither . They are generally such as are either known to be their opinions , and by themselves owned , or else delivered in the sense , and very oft in the words , of their most approved Authors , whom I have quoted in the margent : But here I expect the old clamour of false Quotations , wherein they have been so often taken tardy , that they must now look for the common infelicity of — not to be believed if they should chance to stumble upon Truth . All the relief I desire in that case is , that the Reader who is able to do it , would examine them with his own eyes , and that will be my best justification . I shall detain thee no longer , but commend thee to the good Spirit of Truth to enable thee to discern between good and evil . TO THE PEOPLE OF THE Romish Church . THE Controversies between your Church and ours , are by Gods blessing upon the endeavours of his Ministers , brought to this pass , that I am perswaded there is nothing wanting to the Conviction of divers of you , but a free and diligent perusal of theri Books , without prejudice and partiality : This your Priests knowing , it is their great design to keep you from looking into them ; and to that end , to possess you with this Principle , That you need not trouble your selves to inquire into Books , you are safe enough , so long you believe as the Church believes , and follow the Guidance of your Priests and Fathers : if this be an Errour , it is a dangerous one , and may prove Damnable ; That it is so , and that it will prove but a broken reed , when you lean upon it , I hope you will see there is reason to believe , if you will but do your souls that justice , not prodigally to cast them away upon blind and wilful mistakes , and take the pains to read these ensuing lines . 1. If your Church be not infallible , then this Principle is rotten ; howsoever , you cannot with safety or discretion venture your souls on it , till you have examined at least this one point of the Churches Infallibility : do but examine that , and if you do not stifle both Reason and Conscience , you will see it is a meer cheat . 2. If the Church ( that is , a Pope with a Council ) were infallible ( which is all that your great Champions plead for ) yet all confess , that your particular Priests ( upon whose conduct you hazard your eternal wel-fare ) are fallible and subject to mistakes . It is most certain that divers of your Priests and Confessors lead you into many ( and some ●f them damnable ) Errours . Thousands of ●our Priests and learned Doctors do charge the Iesuits with poysoning the souls of the people with divers pestilent and damnable errours , such as these : That a man may venture his soul upon any probable opinion , and that is probable , which but one of their learned Doctors affirm . That a private man may kill his enemy to maintain his honour , though not by way of revenge . That a Priest may absolve even old and inveterate sinners , and such as he believes incorrigible . That affliction or sorrow for sin , arising meerly from fear of punishments , is sufficient for salvation : and , that the affection of loving God is not absolutely necessary to salvation . All these and many more are clearly proved out of their own words and writings in the Provincial letters , otherwise called , the Mystery of Iesuitisme : See the Latine Edition set forth and defended by Wendrockius . Now if the Iesuits may , and do , so damnably deceive those thousands of you that depend upon their counsel and conduct , why may not other Orders deceive you in other things ? Or what is there that can give you any reasonable security ? Is it their learning , prudence , pretended devotion , or honesty , or any other such like quality ? Why , divers of the Iesuits have given as plausible testimony of those things ( so far as men can judge ) as most of the other Orders ; or will you say , all other Orders are infallible , the Iesuits only excepted ? 3. Nothing can be more evident ( if the Bible be the word of God ) than that the errour or misguidance of the Priest , will not excuse the sin of the people . To satisfie you in this , I beseech you consider these few reasons . 1. The Scripture condemns , and God severely punished those people , which did follow the errours of their Priests . This did not excuse the Jews in Aarons time , that they were misled by Aaron , Exod. 32. nor those in the times of the wicked Kings of Israel and Judah , that their Priests did universally deceive them , and poor Elijah , and so Michaiah , were left alone ; nor those in Malachy's daies , that the Priests caused them to stumble at the Law , Malac , 2. 8. nor the Crucifiers of Christ , that they obeyed the decrees of their Priests and Rulers . I list not to repeat what I have said elsewhere : therefore read Nullity of Romish Faith ch . 2. sect . 12. And will you yet stumble at the same stone ! 2. The people will not be excused by their Priests misguidance , because they neglect their duty . If indeed there were no duty incumbent upon the people but to believe what your Priests say , and do what they require , then your Church speaks reason . But that none but a mad man will say . There are several duties required of the People , no less than of the Priests ; the Law of God was not given only to the Priests , but to all the People ; God publisheth this law in the hearing of all the people , and speaks in the singular number to every one of the people , thou shalt do or forbear this or that ; and the curse is threatned to the people , Deut. 27. 26. Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them , and all the people shall say Amen . Which the Apostle repeats , Gal. 3. 10. Cursed is every one , not Priests only , but the People too , that continueth not in all things which are written in this book of the law to do them . If the Priests then should have taught the Israelites ( as your Priests now teach you ) thou shalt worship a graven image , when God saith , thou shalt not worship a graven image : can any serious man think this would have freed them from that curse ; and that it was safer for them to obey the Command of men than of God ? O the impudence of your Priests that dare say so ! O the blockishness of those people that will believe them when they say so ! your Pope may well contend with us , for it seems your Priests will contest with God for Supremacy : When the Priests and Prophets in Isaiahs daies were generally corrupt , the people are not advised to believe all that they taught , and to obey all that they decreed ( which is the strain of your Church ) but are commanded immediately to go to the law and to the testimony , and if any speak not according to them , they are to be rejected , because there is no light in them , Isa. 8. 20. Even people are required not to believe every spirit , but to try the spirits , 1 John 4. 1. Nor did the Apostles exempt themselves and their doctrines from this Tryal , but allowed , commended , and required it in the people . The Beraeans are not reproved and censured ( as they would certainly be , that should tread in their steps at Rome ) but commended for examining the Doctrine of S. Paul by the Scripture , Acts 17. 11. And the same Apostle allows the Galatians , not only to try his Doctrines , whether they were agreeable to what they had received ; but in case they find them contrary , he gives them Commission to censure and anathemize him , Gal. 1. 8 , 9. And he bespeaks the Corinthians in this language , I speak to wise men , judge you what I say , 1 Cor. 10. 15. And he commands the Thessalonians to prove all things ( without exception ) as well as to hold fast that which is good , 1 Thess. 5. 21. Consider these things , I beseech you , and do not wilfully cast away your precious souls upon trifles . God hath given the Scripture as a rule to try things by ( and this was written for the Ignorant , and the people , as well as the learned , and the Priests , John 20. 31. ) he hath given people reason to try things with , if you will hide these Talents in a Napkin , at your peril be it . The Prince was commanded to read and meditate in the Book of the Law , that he might observe to do all that is written therein , Iosh. 1. 8. Can you seriously think that if the corrupt Priests had agreed to teach him to do contrary to all that was written therein , that this would have excused him before God ? then that Precept was both superfluous and dangerous ; and if you do not think so , ( as you must needs if you have any Conscience ) then neither will it excuse your people ; for according to the Doctrine of your Church , Prince and People are alike in this , both tied to believe as your Church believes . God commands every Christian to prove his own work ; and tells us , that every man shall bear his own burden , Gal. 6. 4 , 5. and , that every man shall give an account of himself to God , Rom. 14. 12. ( Do not think your Priests account shall serve turn ) and all the Christian people of Corinth are commanded to examine themselves whether they be in the faith , 2 Cor. 13. 5. And dare you still live in the wilful breach of all these Commands , and blindly give up your Souls ▪ and Consciences by an implicite faith , to the conduct of your Priests to lead them whether they please ? 3. The Scripture hath given you full warning of your danger . Read but two places , Ezek , 33. 8. ( where God assures us , that the wicked shall die in his iniquity , though he perished through the Watchmans fault ) and Matth. 15. 14. ( where Christ confutes this very opinion of yours , which was also the opinion of the Jews , that they were safe enough while they folowed their Priests Decrees and Counsels : and tells them . If the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the Ditch ) and doubt of this , if you can or dare . In a word , if this senceless Doctrine were true , not only Men would have dominion over our Faith , contrary to express Scripture ; ( Be not ye called Masters , for one is your Master , even Christ , Matth. 23. 10. Not that we have dominion over your faith , said the great Apostle ) but also Christ should lose his dominion , and have no authority in his Church , but as your Priests please ; and it seems he shall not have this favour from you , to continue in his Office quamdiu bene se gesserit , but quamdiu vobis placuerit ; and Christs power is apparently limited to your Interpretation ; but the power of your Church is absolute and unlimited , and the People obliged to believe them , quamcunque sententiam tulerint , whatsoever they shall decree , as Gretser expresseth it . If this be not to make the word and Authority of God and Christ void , through your Traditions , I know not what is . I will trouble you no further . If you be capable of Counsel , take warning , and suffer not your selves to be lead hoodwinckt to Hell , to serve a Carnal Interest of some among you ; but quit your selves like men , and by the grossness of this delusion , learn to suspect the rest ; and with humble and honest hearts , read what is here proposed to you for your Souls good , and God give you light . Let my Soul prosper no otherwise than I heartily wish the good and salvation of you all ; but if you will still persist in your blindness , and add further obstinacy to your Errours , I shall comfort my self in this , that I have delivered my own soul , your blood be upon your own head , for there it will assuredly fall , and not upon the Priests only . Mr. POOLE'S Dialogue . A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A Popish Priest AND An English Protestant . Pop. DEar Friend I am glad to meet with you after so long a separation ; for I remember we were brought up at the same School , and I rejoyce in the opportunity of renewing our acquaintance , I desire a little discourse with you , to understand how it is with you in point of Religion . Prot. I am of the Protestant reformed Religion . Pop. I am heartily sorry for it in regard of our old intimacy ; but if you will give me leave , I do not question , but in a very little time to give you such reasons as will force you to leave those damnable Errors , and to return to your antient Mother the Church of Rome . Prot. With a very good will shall I yield my self to your Instruction , I desire nothing more than true Information ; I know I have a Soul to save , which is of infinite worth , and I am not fond of damnation ; therefore if you give me better grounds than I have , you shall not finde me obstinate : but this I must tell you , you must not put me off with fancies and bare affirmations ; but I shall expect solid proof of what you say from Scripture or Reason , and now speak what you please . Pop. First , my dear Friend , I must intreat you to consider that which your own Ministers teach you , to wit , That there is no Salvation to be had out of the true Catholick Church , which is the Church of Rome . Prot. That none is saved out of the true Catholick Church , I grant , ( for the Catholick Church includes all Believers in the world ) but a man may be saved that is no Member of the Roman , nor of any particular Church ; for although you ingross to your selves the name of the Catholick Church , nothing is more clear , than that the Church of Rome is at best but a part of the Catholick Church , and that a very unsound one too ; and there is a false Church ( in which salvation cannot ordinarily be had ) as well as a true Church ( out of which it cannot ordinarily be had ) and I have heard more to prove yours to be this false Church , than I am able to answer , or you either , as I suppose : therefore this being only a general ( and so an unconcluding ) Argument , I desire you to come closer to the point . Pop. Then I intreat you to consider the danger of your way , and the safety of ours ; since all your Ministers confess , That a Roman Catholick may be saved in his Religion ; but all our Church unanimously declare , That you are damned if you live and dye in your Religion . Prot. You call us Schismaticks ; but by this Argument you prove your selves to be so : For I have oft heard it , that in the very same manner those infamous Schismaticks , the Donatists , argued against St. Austin and the Catholick Church , that he confessed Salvation was to be had in their Churches , which they affirmed was not to be had in the Catholick Church ; and this very thing was by St. Austin , and the Church of that age , condemned as their great Schismatical Principle . But let that pass . To come to your Argument : Remember the condition I made with you , that you do not put me off with Fancies and bare Affirmations , for I expect you shall make good every word you say . Now here I find you under a great Mistake , and though I have heard it most confidently delivered by divers of your Brethren , yet you must give me leave to believe my own eyes and ears : I read it in divers Books of our Learned English Divines , and I have heard it from divers very able Scholars and Ministers , That Popery in these times and places of light , is to those that may see that light and will not , not only dangerous , but damnable ; nor do I pin my Faith upon their sleeves , but they have given me not meer Affirmations as you do , but such Arguments as I confess I cannot answer : yet if you can , I shall be ready to hearken to you . Pop. It is easie to say in general , that our Religion is dangerous or damnable , but I beseech you shew me wherein ; which are those Doctrines and Practices of ours wherein the danger lies ? Prot. I will instance in few of many particulars . First , That Idolatry is a damnable sin , your own Authors grant , and Scripture expresly affirms , Idolaters shall not inherit the Kingdom of God , 1 Cor. 6. 9 , 10. and Rev. 21. 8. & 22. 15. And that your Church is guilty of Idolatry , especially in the Worship of Images , and of the Host , or Consecrated Bread in the Sacrament , is the Doctrine of all Protestant Churches , and I shall prove it before you and I have done . Secondly , That the Worshippers of the Babylonish Beast , Rev. 13. and 14. are in a damnable condition , you all grant , and it is affirmed by God himself , Rev. 14. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. And that Rome is that Babylon , the most and Learnedest of your Doctors agree , only some of them pretend it is Rome Heathen as it was ; and others , that it is Rome Iewish , as it shall be in the end of the world ; both which conceits are fully refuted by divers of our Authors . Thirdly , that it is highly dangerous to trust in Man , and to trust in our own Righteousness , sufficiently appears from Ier. 17. 5. Cursed is he that trusteth in Man ; and from that dreadful example of the Iews , who going about to establish their own righteousness , did not submit to ( and therefore lost the benefit of ) the righteousness of Faith , Rom. 10. 3. and that you are guilty of this sin , in trusting to Saints and to your own Merits , shall appear in the following Discourse . Fourthly , It is dangerous to add to the Word of God ; and this your Church is not only deeply guilty of , in adding their Traditions ( * to be received with equal reverence to the holy Scriptures ) but obligeth all its Members to justifie those additions , and thereby intitle them to the same plagues with themselves . Fifthly , ( to name no more ) it is highly dangerous to break any of Gods commands , and to teach men so , and to make the word of God of none effect by humane Traditions , we know what woes Christ pronounceth against the Pharisees for these things . And this your Church is deeply guilty of , as in many other particulars , so most eminently in this , that you profess no men are obliged to receive the Scriptures as the word of God , nor to believe any thing in it , but for the testimony of your Church † By this it apears , that you have no reason to boast of the safeness of your way . And as for your threats of Damnation to all that do not submit themselves to your Church and Pope , however they may terrifie silly people ; yet toke it from me , to prudent men it is rather an argument of the falseness of your Religion . For such will be apt to conclude , that your Faith is not right , because your uncharitableness is so notorious , and monstrous , in condemning all the world besides your selves , and that too upon such frivolous pretences . This argument therefore of yours hath little weight . Let me hear what further you have to say against our Religion . Pop. Then consider seriously of this , that your Church confesses , that she is Fallible , and that you have no Infallible Iudge among you , whereby Controversies may be ended ; but our Church is Infallible . Prot. I confess now you speak home ; make this good , That it is necessary the Church should be Infallible , and that yours is so , and I shall ease you of the trouble of further Arguments : But I must ask you two Questions : 1. What is the meaning of this Proposition ? and , 2. How you will prove it ? For the first , I ask you how you understand it ? What is this Church which you tell me is Infallible ? Are you agreed among your selves in that point ? To tell me of an Infallible Judge , and not to give me infallible assurance who this Judge is , is to deceive me with vain words , and will no more end Controversies than to tell me there is an Infallible Judge in Heaven : For where I pray you shall I finde your Infallible Judge ? Now I am in quest of him , I intreat your counsel and direction . Tell me then , Is it the body of your Church , and multitude of Catholicks that is your Infalible Judge ? Do you make your people the Judge of Controversies ? Pop. No , For we all agreed the Government of the Church is Monarchical . Prot. Are you then agreed that the Pope alone is the Infallible Judge ? speak the truth , and the whole truth , and nothing but the truth . Pop. I will deal truly with you , we are not all agreed in that point , the French Catholicks generally deny it , and divers of our eminent Doctors and Writers , as ( Bellarmin confesses * ) and among the rest a Pope , Adrian by name , denies it , and even they that seem to be better minded towards the Pope , acknowledge that it is no heresie to deny this , and that divers good Catholicks deny it , and that it is but a disputable point * . Prot. Is it then a General Council that is infallible ? Are you agreed in that ? deal truly and clearly with me . Pop. Then I must confess we are not all agreed in that neither : For the Pope will deny this , and all the Iesuites and Italian Catholicks , and others , who ascribe this Infallibility to the Pope only . Prot. Who then is this Infallible Judge ? Pop. The Pope and a General Council agreeing together . Prot. Is there then at this time any General Council at Rome , or elsewhere , which doth agree with the Pope ? Pop. No , but though there be no Council now in their persons , yet there is in their writings , and the Pope agreeing with them is infallible . Prot. But I have been told that all your Doctors agree in this , that no Writing can be a judge of Controversies : If you deny this , I should think the writing of God ( which you all acknowledge the Scripture to be ) might challenge this priviledge as well as the writings of any Council or men . You all plead for the absolute necessity of a living Infallible Judge . Pop. Though Catholicks are divided in the manner of expression , yet all are agreed in this general Proposition , That our Church is Infallible . Prot. Call you this only a difference in manner of expression , for one to say the Pope is Infallible , another to say he is fallible ? for some of you to affirm the infallibility of Councils , others utterly to deny it ? I beseech you remember , I am inquiring after Particulars ( and therefore do not put me off with deceitful Generals ) who , and where is the man or men , to whom I must go to be infallibly resolved in all Controversies ? For if the King should tell his people he hath appointed a Judge to end all their civil Controversies , this would be to no purpose , unless he should tell who that Judge is , So that till I hear you are agreed in this particular , my doubts and perplexities must needs remain . And then for the next point : I ask you , how you prove this Infallibility which you pretend to , I must tell you since it is the very foundation of your Faith , I expect very clear and undeniable Proofs , I pray you bring me two or three of your strongest Arguments . Pop. In this you speak reason , and I shall comply with your desires , I shall give you two or three plain and evident Scriptures to prove it . 1. That of Mat. 16. 18. Hence I thus argue , The Church is said to be built upon St. Peter , he is the Rock spoken of ; and this Rock doth together with S. Peter include his Successours , and the Church built upon this Rock , ( that is united to , and built upon the Pope ) is infallible , for it is said , The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it . Prot. Not one of all these things is true . 1. It is more probable that not Peter's Person , but his Doctrine or his Confession concerning Christ , ( which now he made ) is the Rock upon which the Church is built ; Scripture is its own best Interpreter : It is not Peter , but Christ which is the foundation of the Church , as he is called , Isa. 28. 16. compared with 1 Pet. 2. 6 , 7 , 8. It is expresly , 1 Cor. 3. 11. Other foundation can no man lay but that that is laid , which is Iesus Christ ; and this is the more considerable , because , he speaks against those that made the Apostles foundations , one saying , I am of Paul , another , I of Apollos , I of Cephas . And if this were spoken of Peter , no more is said of him here , than is said of all the Prophets and Apostles , Ephes. 2. 20. Ye are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets — And besides , if by this Text Peter had been made supreme and Infallible Head of the Church , and Judge of all Controversies , no Man in his wits can believe that St. Paul would have treated him so irreverently ( to speak the least ) as he doth Galat. 2. ( which is more considerable , because then Christ was dead , and Peter in the actual exercise of his Headship and Government , and if we may believe you , publickly and universally owned for such ) that he would have equalled himself with him as he doth , Verse 7. The Gospel of the Vncircumcision was committed to me , as the Gospel of the Circumcision to Peter : And that he would have spoken promiscuously of Iames , Cephas and Iohn , that they all seemed to be pillars , Ver. 9. and not a word of Peters being the rock and foundation ; and that he would have withstood St. Peter to his face , as he did , Verse 11. 2. If this were meant of Peter ; yet this is nothing to his Successours . You must first prove that St. Peter had a Successour in that supposed universal Headship , which will be very hard to perswade any understanding Man , for , 1. That authority which the Apostles had over all Churches , was peculiar to them , and died with them : we see God did not think it necessary to leave a successour to Moses , ( in his full and absolute Authority ) no more was it necessary to leave any after Peter and the Apostles : and the reason is the same , because the work of Law-giving was finish'd , and those that came after were tyed to the execution of their Laws . 2. Besides , if Peter did leave a Successour , what prudent man can believe , that he would not have left some notice , thereof to the world in one of his Epistles ? I find he saith , I will endeavour that you may be able after my decease , to have these things in remembrance , 2 Pet. 1. 15. How easie had it been to have added , to that end I leave a Successour , whom you must hear in all things ? I find Moses was very careful to leave a Successour , and so was Elias , and David , and Christ ( as my Father sent me , so send I you ) : Was Peter the only careless person , that would not be at the expence of a word to prevent all those Heresies , Schisms , and Contentions which were even then broached , and most likely to increase after the death of the Apostles in the Christian world ? 3. If any did succeed St. Peter in his Head-ship , one would think it should have been one of the surviving Apostles , especially St. Iohn , who lived above 20 years after him ; for who can believe ( that regards what he believes ) that Linus or Clemens who is said to be St. Peters successour , should be superiour to St. Iohn ; yet the foundation of all your Religion is built upon this nonsensical opinion : And if this priviledge did belong not only to Peter , but some of his successours ; yet to say , it belongs to all following Popes ( divers of which are acknowledged to be Apostatical and most wicked wretches ) and that such Monsters as were the true slaves of the Devil , and brands of Hell , should be the foundations of the Church , by whom the Church was to be secured from the gates of Hell , will not find belief with serious Men till East and West meet together : and besides , when our Divines say , The Pope is Antichrist , and the Man of sin ; you use to answer , that these expressions , the Antichrist , and the Man of sin , must needs point at a particular Man , and not a whole Order of Men ; which if it be true , the expression there used of this Rock ( especially being so particularly levell'd at Peter , as you will needs have it ) cannot with any colour be thought to mean a succession of many hundreds of persons . And sure I am , whatever the Text speaks of Peter , it speaks not one word of Peters Successours , and therefore it is as easie for me to deny it , as you to affirm it . 3. Whatever this promise or priviledge is , it belongs no more to the Church of Rome , than to the Church of England , the name of one is heer as clear as the other ; It is a general promise extending to the Church at all times and places , signifying , that God will have and maintain a Church to the end of the World : And if this place concerns only those that are built upon St. Peter , you grant the Church of England once was , as the Church of Rome now is , built upon him too , when it was subject to the Pope . And if their being built upon St. Peter did not secure them from Fallibility and Apostacy ( as you say it did not ) then consequently the building of the Church of Rome upon St. Peter did not make them infallible , but they might ( as we say and prove they did ) fall away . And certainly one of these two things must be granted , either that every Church which did once adhere to Peter , or the Pope , are secured by this Text from falling away ; or else , that notwithstanding this Promise , every Church that now is subject to the Pope may fall away from him , and so the Pope may be a head without a Body , a Shepherd without so much as one sheep : For if this Text did prove what they desire , that all that do adhere to the Pope , whilst they do so , are Infallible ; yet it doth not prove , that they all shall constantly adhere to him ( which is quite another thing . ) 4. If this Promise and Priviledge did belong to any particular Church , and to yours ( in a special manner ) yet it doth not prove your Infallibility : This place concerns Doctrines no more than Manners , and secures your Church no more against damnable Heresies , than against damnable Practices , since the gates of Hell prevail by one as well as by the other , and since you acknowledge that Peters successours have lived and died in damnable sins , they might as well die in damnable Heresies : Besides , if this Text did prove the Popes Supremacy , yet here is not one word concerning his Infallibility , which is quite another thing . 5. If this Text did prove any Infallibility , it doth not prove the Popes Infallibility ( which you alledge this Text for ) but the Infallibility of the Church which is built upon it . Pop. But that Church is Infallible because they adhere to the Rock , viz. the Pope who therefore must needs be more Infallible . Prot. Then it seems the foundation of all your Infallibility is in the Pope , as Peters Successour , whom multitudes of your own Learned and approved Doctors acknowledge to be Fallible . I have heard you all confess , That your Popes may erre in Manners and Practice . Is it so ? Pop. Yes . Prot. Then whatsoever he thinks , he may speak lyes , and deceive the World , in telling them he is Infallible ; and surely if a Man will deceive for any thing , he will do it for such an Empire as the Pope holds : but I have heard also your Popes may erre in matters of Fact. Pop. That we do all agree in . Prot. Then he may mistake and erre in these Questions , whether Peter left a Successour ? and , whether the Bishop of Rome be the person ? and , whether there hath been that uninterrupted succession in the Papal Chair , which you pretend to be necessary , which must be Infallibly certain , or else the Pope holds his Authority only upon courtesie ; so this place will not stand you in much stead . Let me hear if you have any better Argument . Pop. There is another place , which if you were not an obstinate sort of Men , would satisfie you all , and that is , 1 Tim. 3. 15. where the Church is called , The pillar and ground of truth , and therefore is Infallible . Prot. Let me first ask you , What Church is there spoken of , which you say is Infallible ? Is it the Church of Rome ? Was Timothy Bishop of Rome or no ? Pop. No , he was Bishop of Ephesus : But why do you ask that Question ? Prot. This place apparently speaks of that Church , in , and over which Timothy was set : so if it speak of any particular Church , it must be that of Ephesus ( which you confess was Fallible ) not that of Rome ; or if it speak of the Universal Church , that might be Infallible , though the Pope and all the Church of Rome ( truly so called ) should fail and perish . Tell me , I beseech you , in particular , What is that Church , which from this and other places , you conclude to be Infallible ? Pop. It is the Pope with the General Council , as I have told you . Prot. Then I pray you make sense of the verse ; for to me it is meer non-sense — Timothy is here advised to behave himself rightly in the house of God , which is the Church of God , and the Pillar and Ground of Truth : According to your opinion , this is the sense of it , That thou mightest know how to behave thy self in the Pope and a General Council . I pray you tell me truly , Was there a General Council then sitting . Pop. No : there was no General Council from that time , till two or three hundred years after , when the Councill of Nice was assembled . Prot. Then it seems to me a most unreasonable thing to say , that Paul directs Timothy how to behave himself in a General Council ( which was not then in being , nor like to be ) and that he doth not direct him how to behave himself in that body , the Church in which he then resided and ruled . Besides , I pray you , where is the Pope or a Council called the House of God ? If they have any thing to do there , they are the Governours , the Stewards , the Officers of the House , but are never called the House of God , but this name is alwayes ascribed to the multitude of Believers and Professors , as Heb. 2. 5 , 6. where Moses ( whose place in the Church the Pope pretends to ) is not the House , but the Servant , the Officer of it ; so Heb. 10. 21. Having an High-Priest over the house of God ; so 1 Pet. 2. 5. Ye as lively stones are built up as a spiritual house : And if you know any one place where it is otherwise used , I pray speak ; if not ( as by your silence I see you do not ) all understanding men will conclude that neither Pope nor Council are concerned in this priviledge . But besides , let me further ask you , Can you give me assurance that these words which is the ground and pillar of Truth , imply Infallibility ? Pop. It is true , the words are figurative and metaphorical , but that is the meaning of them . Prot. My old Friend , can you advise me to venture my salvation upon a metaphor ? or that that is the true and only sense of the words ? Prove it , and I am your Prisoner ; but it seemeth to me far otherwise : God saith to Ieremy , I have made thee an Iron Pillar , Jer. 1. 18. Was Ieremy therefore Infallible ? Peradventure , that was too mean a metal to amount to Infallibility ; but your Church is a brazen Pillar , and so it seems by the impudence of your assertions . I read in Eusebius , * That the Saints of Vienna and Lyons , called Attalus the Martyr , a pillar and ground of the Truth , yet you will not allow him to be Infallible ; by which and divers other passages it is sufficiently evident , that a Pillar in the Church is no more than a man that is well rooted and grounded and strong in the faith , as he is a reed that is tossed to and fro with every winde of doctrine ; let me therefore hear if you have any better arguments . Pop. Then John 16. 3. is an express promise , When the Spirit of truth is come , he will guide you into all truth , and therefore our Chuch is infallible . Prot. Tell me I pray you , Is not this promise made to the Apostles only ? If so , What is that to you ? If you say otherwise , How do you make it appear that it concerns their Successours ? Pop. That appears by comparing another place with it , John 14. 16. The Comforter shall abide with you for ever , not surely in their persons ; for , they were to die in a little time , but in their Successours . Prot. I expected a place which had said at the least , that the Spirit Should lead them into all truth for ever ; but this is quite another thing ; you dare not say , that every one with whom the Comforter abides is infallible ; but to forgive you this great mistake : Tell me truly , Is it then your opinion , That all the Successors of each of the Apostles , viz. all Bishops , or all Ministers are infallible ? Pop. No , in no wise , for it is only S. Peter's Successours , or the Pope , who is infallible , and others only so far as they depend upon him and cleave to him . Prot. Then this Text is not for your turn ; for if it do extend to the Apostles Successors , it extends either to all or none ; for sure I am , this Text makes no difference : Besides , how do you prove that these words of the Spirits leading into all truth , if they do reach further than the Apostles , do imply Infallibility . Then all Believers are infallible , for they are all led by the Spirit , Rom. 8. 14. Pop. True , but here they are said to be led into all truth . Prot. You know the words all and every are often taken in a limited sense , as when the Gospel is to be preached to every creature , Mark 16. 15. And you may as well conclude the omnisciency of all Believers , from 1 Iohn 2. 20. You know all things ; and v. 27. The anointing teacheth you all things , as the Infallibility of your Popes or Councils from that phrase : and one Answer serves for both places , viz. that they speak of all necessary truths . But why do I hear nothing of Luke 22. 31. Simon , Simon , Satan hath desired to winnow you , but I have prayed that thy faith fail not . I have heard that Bellarmine useth this Argnment , but I confess , I thought they abused him . Pop. It is true , he doth use it , and it is a solid one , though you scorn it . Prot. How do you know that it is meant of all Peter's Successours ? for there is not one word of them here . But if I grant these were meant , Do you then all believe that Peter's Successours are infallible ? Pop. I did before acknowledge that we are divided in that point . Prot. Can you think to convince me with that argument that does not satisfie your own Brethren ? Moreover , tell me , I pray you , What was the Faith of Peter which was struck at by the Devil , and pray'd for by Christ ? Pop. The event shews that ; for the Devil tempted him , and prevailed with him to deny his Master . Prot. Did Peter deny Christ doctrinally , and fall into the damnable error of disbelieving Christ to be the Messias , or was it only an error or miscarriage of his tongue , which spoke against his Conscience and Judgment ? Pop. Far be it from me , to say that Peter did so damnably erre in his judgment , I know no Catholick who saith so ; all do all agree that it was only an error of his tongue and conversation , and practical denial of Christ. Prot. Very well : Hence then I gather , that Christ prayed for his practical , not for his doctrinal Faith , and that his grace of faith might not be utterly lost by his fall : so that , if this Text and Prayer reach to your Popes , it should rather secure them from damnable Apostacies in practice ( which you confess many of them fell into and died in ) then from Heresies ( of which this Text speaks not at all . ) But have you no other Arguments ? Pop. Yes , there is one more , which were sufficient if there were no other , and that is from Gods Providence ; It is unbecoming the wisdom of God to leave his Church without a guide , or infallible Iudge , by which means there would be no end of Controversies : and since you do not pretend to have any such in your Church , it must be in ours , or else there is none in the world . Prot. I had thought you would have only taught me , but now it seems you will teach God how to govern the World. It should seem to me , that God was not of your mind ; he did not think fit to end all Controversies , but to permit that there should be Heresies , 1 Cor. 11. 19. And if God in his wisdom thought an Infallible Judge necessary , certainly that same Wisdom would have named the place , person , or persons , where people should have found this Infallibility . Was it ever known , since the beginning of the world , that any Prince constituted Judges in his Kingdom , not so much as giving notice to his people who they were , to whom they must resort for Justice ? this God hath not done ; for you do not pretend a particular place which settles this infallible Judge at Rome , but only some general and fallacious Arguments , as I have proved ; and besides , it is so far from being evident , that your selves are not agreed about it : but some seek for this infallible judgement in the Pope , others in a General Council ; and these do as fiercely dispute one against another in this point , as you do against us in many others ; and therefore it is much more rational for me to conclude thus ; God hath not nominated and appointed such an infallible Judge in the Church ; therefore there is none , and it is not fit there should be one , than sawcily to undertake to be the Counsellor of the Almighty , and to tell him what is fit to be done , and then conclude that it is done . In short , For Controversies about Fundamental and necessary things , God hath provided sufficient meanes for the ending of them , having clearly enough determined them in his Word for the satisfaction of all that are diligent and humble , and teachable : And for Controversies of lesser moment there is no necessity of having them ended , nor would they be much prejudicial to the peace of the world and the Church if men would learn to give any allowance for the infirmities of humane nature , and exercise that great and necessary duty of Charity and mutual forbearance . But since this is all you can say upon this particular , I pray you , let me hear what other Arguments you have against our Church and Doctrine . Pop. Then another Argument against your Church and way , is taken from the Novelty of it ; As for our Religion , it hath had possession in the world ever since the Apostles days ; but you are of Yesterday , and know nothing ; your Religion is an upstart Religion , never heard of in the world till Luthers days . Prot. First , let me ask you this Question , If you had lived in the days of Christ , or of the Apostles , or of the Primitive Fathers , what would you have Answered for your self ? you know better than I , that this was the very Argument , which Iews and Heathens urged against the Christians then ; they charged Christ with not walking after the Traditions of the Elders , Matth. 7. 5. And the Athenians said to Paul , May we know what this new Doctrine is ? Act. 17. 19. And the Pharisees had Antiquity on their side , being zealous for the Traditions of the Fathers , Gal. 1. 14. And though it be true , that the Apostles had the first Antiquity for them , delivering nothing but what for substance was in Moses and the Prophets , Act. 26. 22. ( which also is our case ) yet the immediate and latter antiquity was against them , and for divers ages together these Doctrines had been in great measure obscured and unknown . What then would you have Answered to a Iew or a Heathen , objecting this Novelty to you ? Learn from Christ , who when the Iews pleaded for the continuance of their old practice in the matter of Divorces ; he accounted it sufficient confutation , that from the beginning it was not so , Mat. 19. 7. And to all the pretences of the Pharisees from antiquity , he opposeth this one thing , Search the Scriptures , John 5. 39. So you dispute against us with the arguments which the Pharisees used against Christ , and we answer you as He answered them : Besides let me ask you this Question , If I could clearly prove to you all the points of our Faith , and disprove the points of yours , from the Holy Scriptures , tell me , Would you then acknowledge the truth of the Protestant Religion , notwithstanding all this pretended Novelty ? Pop. Yes certainly , for we all confess the truth of all that is contained in the holy Scriptures . Prot. Hence then it follows undeniably , that the main thing that you and I must look to in our faith is , that it be agreeable to the holy Scriptures ; and if ours be so , ( as I am fully perswaded it is ) and yours the contrary , neither antiquity is any argument for you , nor Novelty against us . Besides , when you charge our Church with Novelty , I suppose you mean that our Doctrines are new . Pop. I do so . Prot. Then you cannot justly charge us with Novelty ; for , 1. You confess the Antiquity and verity of most of our Fundamental Doctrines , and your selves do approve them , only you make additions of your own to them ; you own all the Scriptures in our Bible , only you add the Apocrypha : you acknowledge Scripture the rule of Faith , only you add Tradition : we believe all the Articles of the Apostles Creed ( the * belief whereof the Antient Fathers thought sufficient to Salvation ) . And the Doctrine of the four first General Councils , as you do also : You own our Doctrine of Christs satisfaction and Justification by Christ and Faith , only you add your own works and satisfaction : Our two Sacraments you approve , only you add five more : Our Doctrine of the two states of Men in heaven and Hell you own , only you add Purgatory : You own Christ for your Mediatour and Prayers to God through him , only you add other Mediatours ; Our worship of God you own , only you add Images . These are the principal points of our Religion , and dare you now say that our Doctrines are new ? 2. Many of your ablest Doctors confess , that divers of the peculiar Doctrines of your Church are new and unknown to the Antient Fathers ; and it is most evident and undeniable concerning Indulgences , Purgatory , Communion in one kind , Worship in a strange tongue , the receiving some of your Apocryphal books , Transubstantiation ( especially as an Article of Faith ) the Popes Infallibility , Worship of Images , denying of the reading of Scriptures to the people and others . And will you yet brag of the Antiquity of your Religion ? 3. These Doctrines wherein we differ from you have been not only proved from Scripture , but from the plain testimony of Antient Fathers , as I think none can doubt that , ( laying aside prejudices , ) shall read what our Iewel , and Morton , and Field , and others have written ; How then can you have the confidence to charge us with Novelty ? Pop. Your Church is new in this respect , that although some others before you might own some of your Doctrines , there was no Church that owned all your Doctrines , both positive and negative . Prot. That is not necessary . I hope every alteration of Doctrines of less moment , doth not make the Church new ; if it doth , it is most certain , that your Church is new also ; for nothing can be more plain , than that the Catholick Church , nay even your own Church of Rome , did not antiently , in former ages hold all these Doctrines which now she owns ( as your own greatest Authors confess ) this is sufficient , that the Church of God , in most former ages , hath owned all our Substantial Doctrines . But what have you further to say ? Pop. It is sufficient against you , that your Church is Schismatical , and you are all guilty of Schism in departing from the true Catholick Church , which is but one , and that is the Roman . Prot. I desire to know of you , Whether in no case a man may separate from the Church whereof he was a member without Schism ? Pop. Yes certainly , if there be sufficient cause for it , for the Apostles did separate from the Church of the Jews after Christs death , and the Orthodox separated from the Arrian Churches , and all Communion with them , yet none ever charged them with Schism . Prot. Since you mention that instance , I pray you tell me , Why they separated from the Arrians ? Pop. Because they held this Heresie , That Christ was a Creature , and not the true God. Prot. Very well : hence then I conclude , That if your Church do hold any Heresie , and require all her members to own it too , it is no Schism for us to separate from you . Pop. That must needs be granted , but this is but a slander of yours , for our Church holds no such Heresies . Prot. Your Church doth not hold one , but many dangerous Errours and Heresies , as I do not doubt to manifest e're you and I part : And if you please , we will leave the present Argumeut to this issue , if I do not prove your Church guilty of Heresie , and the imposition of it too , I am content you should charge us with Schism ; if I do , you shall mention it no more . Pop. You speak reason , let it rest there . Prot. Besides , methinks , you deal barbarously with us , you drive us out from you by your tyranny , and then you blame us for departing ; as if Sarah had call'd Hagar a Schismatick for going out of Abraham's family , from which she forced her : Tell me , I pray you , if the case be so that I must depart from the Roman Church , or from God , What must I do ? Pop. The case is plain , you must rather depart from that Church . Prot. This is the case , If I do not depart from your Church , she will force me to live in many mortal sins . I must believe a hundred lies , I must worship the Cross and Relicks , and Images , which God commands me under pain of his highest displeasure not to worship . I must worship the Sacrament with divine worship , which I am assured is no other for substance than bread ; for your Church is not content to hold these opinions , but she enjoyns these practices to all her members . And if things be thus , I think you will not have the confidence , any more to charge us with Schism for obeying the command of God to come out of Babylon , since you force all your members to partake with you in your sins , Rev. 18. 4. Besides all this , let me ask you upon what account you charge us with Schism . Pop. For departing from the Catholick Church , and from your Mother Church of Rome , and from the Pope , whose Subjects once you were . Prot. If then I can prove that we are not departed from the Catholick Church nor from our Mother Church , nor from any of that subjection we owe to the Pope , I hope you will acquit us from Schism . Pop. That I cannot deny , Prot. Then this danger is over : For 1. We never did depart from the Catholick Church , which is ( not your particular Roman Church , as you most ridiculously call it , but ) the whole multitude of Believers and Christians in the world : Nay , the truth is , you are the Schismaticks in renouncing all Communion with all the Christian Churches in the world , except your own , ( which are equal to yours in number ; and many of them far superiour in true piety . ) Next , we do not own you for our Mother : Ierusalem which is above , ( not Babylon that is beneath ) is the Mother of us all . If we grant now you are a true Church , yet you are but a sister Church . Pop. You forget that you received the Gospel from our hands . Prot. Suppose we did really so ; Doth that give you authority over us ? If it did , not Rome , but Ierusalem should be the Mother Church , from whom you also received the Gospel : This you deny , which shews that you do not believe your own Argument to be good . And for the Popes Universal and Infallible Authority which he pretends over all Christians , I have diligently read your Arguments for it ; and I freely profess to you , I find your pretences both from Scripture and Fathers so weak and frivolous , that I durst commend it to any understanding and disinterested person as a most likely means to convince him of the vanity and falseness of that Doctrine ; that he would peruse any of your best Authors , and the very sight of the weakness and impertinency of your Arguments would abundantly satisfie him of the badness of your cause . Pop. You have no Ministers , because you have no uninterrupted succession from the Apostles , as we have , and therefore you have on Church , and therefore no Salvation . Prot. I observe you take the same course that the Adversaries of the Gospel ever did , who when they could not reprove the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , they quarrelled with them for want of a Calling , as you may see , Iohn . 1. 25. Mat. 21. 23. Act. 4. 7. But the good Christians of that time took another course , and examined not so much the Call of the persons , as the truth of the Doctrine , Act. 8. 17. It seems to me a secret confession of your guilt , and the Error of your Doctrine , that you are so careful to turn off mens eyes from that to a far meaner point . But tell me , Do you believe that such an uninterrupted Succession of Ministers from the Apostles , is absolutely necessary to the being of a Church ? Pop. Yes verily , or else this Argument signifies nothing . Prot. How then can you convince me or any other Christian , that you have had such an uninterrupted Succession in your Church ? You must produce , and , it seems , I must read all those many hundreds of great Volumes wherein such passages are mentioned . In those you must shew me a perfect catalogue of the several names of those Popes , and others who have without interruption succeeded one another ever since the Apostles days , and this catalogue must be such that all your Authors are agreed in , ( whereas I am told for certain , they differ very much in their reports therein ) and are not so much as agreed among themselves who was Peter's next Successor , ( whether Linus or Clemens , or some other person they know not who , ) and those Historians that report these things , you must assure me that they were infallible ( which you do not pretend they were ) or else they might mistake the things themselves , and mis-report them to me ; and I have heard and read that there have been divers interruptions and Schisms even in your Church , one Pope set up against another , and each pretending to be the true Pope , and disannulling all the Acts of the other , and that the Christian people were then wofully divided , some cleaving to one , others to another ; but it may be this was a mistake of our Ministers ; therefore tell me , Was this true or no ? Pop. I confess it was true , after the year of Christ 1300. there were several Popes at the same time , one at Rome , another at Avignon . Prot. And how long did this difference last ? Pop. For about 50. years . Prot. And is it true that I have heard , that your great Baronius reports that for 150 years together the Popes were rather Apostates than Apostolicks , and that they were thrust into the Papal Chair by the power of Harlots , and the violences of the Princes of Tuscany . Pop. I must be true to you , Baronius doth say so at the year 897. Prot. Then never hence forward be so impudent to pretend to such a lawful , clear and uninterrupted succession ; but blush that ever you mentioned it . But besides , I have heard that divers of our first reformed and reforming Ministers too , were such as had received Ordination from and in the Church of Rome , and from your Bishiops . Is it true , or is it not ? Pop. I will be ingenuous , Our Doctors confess it ; but if your Ministers , or some of them had a call from our Church , yet they were only called to Preach , not to overturn the world ( as they did ) and to undertake the Reformation of the whole Church . Prot. You have said enough : if they were called to the Ministry , their Work and Office was to bear witness to the Truth ; and therefore to undeceive the world in those many Errors and Heresies , which you had brought into the Church : and Ministers are set for the defence of the Gospel ; they were therefore bound by their Office to edeavour the Reformation of the Church , and salvation of Souls : and as in a great Fire ( especially where the publick Officers neglect their Duty ) every man brings his Bucket to quench it ; so , in that miserable estate , into which you had brought the Church , ( when the Pope and Bishops would not do their duty ) it was the duty of every Minister to endeavour , and to stir up the Kings and Magistrates of the World to endeavour a Reformation . Surely you cannot pretend to an higher priviledge than St. Paul , and yet he gives all Ministers and Christians this leave and charge , that if he himself should bring any other doctrine than what he had delivered , any Minister ( though happily such a one as received his calling from him ) or Christian might not only forsake him , but judge him accursed . I shall only adde this , our Ministers are in a very hard case . I have discoursed with Anabaptists , who have reasoned against our Ministers as no Ministers , because they had their calling from Rome ; and now you will make them no Ministers , because they had no Calling from Rome . ( How shall they please you and them too ? ) But what have you further to say ? Pop. I have this further ( which is indeed unanswerable ) namely , the horrible divisions of , and in , your Churches : Here is Luther an and Calvinist , Episcopal and Presbyterian , Independent and Anabaptist , and Quaker , and Socinian , and Familist : and what not ? so that a man that would turn to your Church , knows not which to turn to : but our Church is one and entire , at perfect unity in it self . Prot. I pray you tell me in the first place , are divisions a certain Argument to prove any Church not to be true ? Pop. I cannot say so ; for it is plain , the Iewish Church in Christs time was full of Divisions ; there were Pharisees , Sadduces , Essenes , &c. And so was the Church of Corinth in St. Pauls time , while some said , I am of Paul , others , I of Apollo , others , I of Cephas ; and some denyed Pauls Ministry and Apostleship , and some denyed the Resurrection . Prot. Very well , then you may blush to use such an Argument : I am told that the old Heathens did use this very Argument against the Primitive Christians . Pop. It is true , they did . Prot. What a shame is it that you are forced to defend your cause with such weapons as were used by the Pagans , and wrested out of their hands by the Antient Fathers ? But besides , you talk of our Divisions , I pray you let me ask you , will you allow me to father all the opinions of every Papist , I read or talk with , upon your Church ? Pop. No , in no wise , Let our Church speak for her self . It is one great fault of your Ministers , they catch up every particular Opinion of any Private Doctor , and presently charge our Church with it ; though it be such as she hath condemned : whereas they should judge of our Church only by her own Decrees and Councils . Prot. Very well , I desire only the same justice from you ; Do not father upon our Church those Opinions which she dislikes and abhors : Socinians , Quakers , &c. are yours rather than ours , and joyn with you in abundance of your Doctrins : Judge of our Churches by their publick Confessions ; and there also you would find , that our divisions are generally inconsiderable , being almost all about a Form of Government , or oft-times , but a manner of expression , and none of them in fundamental Points . But since you talk of Divisions , let me ask you , are all the Members of your Church of one mind ? I have been told otherwise : We hear great talk every day of the difference between the Jansenists , and the Jesuits : and ( if we may believe either of them ) it is a Fundamental difference , and such as concerns the very life of Religion . I will not trouble you with other things : But are you agreed in that , which is the foundation of your unity , I mean , concerning the Supream Infallible Judge of Controversies ? I remember your self told me , that some of you thought it was the Pope , and others a Council : And I have read , that Popish Nations , and Universities , and Doctors , are all together divided about it ; and for the Pope , I have heard that Bellarmin reckons up the several opinions , and amongst others , that the Pope ( if he be without a general Council ) may be an Heretick , and teach Heresie : and this ( saith he ) is the opinion of divers Papists , and is determined by a Pope himself , Adrian the 6th by name , in his question about Confirmation : Is this true , or is Bellarmin bely'd ? Pop. It is true , Bellarmin doth say so much , * and moreover , that this opinion is not heretical , and is tolerated by the Church : but withall he tells you , that he is of another opinion , which is also the common opinion . Prot. However , that is sufficient for my purpose . This one difference among you being far more considerable , than all those points wherein Protestants differ among themselves : for though they differ in other and lesser things , they all agree in this great means of Union , that they own the Holy Scriptures to be the Iudge ( or more properly the Rule ) of Controversies : and therefore if you please , let this pass , and let me hear what further you have to say against us , or for your selves ? Pop. This further I say , the true Church must needs remain visible perpetually to the end of the world , such our Church hath been , whereas yours was invisible and ( as I said before ) unheard of in the world till Luthers dayes . Prot. I do not well understand you ; Do you think the Church must needs be visible at all times to the whole world ? Pop. I cannot say so , for she was not always visible to many great and famous parts of the world , as China and America ; it may suffice , that she is visible in some Kingdom or part of the world , and that she remains so in all ages . Prot. Then the Church may remain invisible to the greatest part of the world , and so your argument reacheth but a small part of the world : How I pray you must the Church be always visible ? Pop. There must be in all ages , in some eminent place , a great company of Christians visibly united together , in the worship of God in one body and Congregation , and governed by their successive Pastors under the Pope . Prot. Very well : now I know your mind : and first I deny , that it is necessary for the true Church to be so visible in all ages : Do you prove it ? Pop. That I shall easily prove , from those many and glorious promises made to the Church ; the Church is called a great Mountain , and said to be exalted above other mountains , Isa. 2. She is a City set upon a hill that cannot be hid , Mat. 5. Christ hath promised to be with her to the end of the world , Mat. 28. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against her ; Christs Kingdom , is an everlasting Kingdom , Psal. 88. Dan. 2. A few invisible and dispersed Christians , cannot make a Kingdom . Prot. Your proofs are impertinent , Isa. 2. doth prove that the Church under the New Testament should be glorious ( that is spiritually ) and prevalent : so it was ( and we trust will be ) but he saith not , the Church should always continue in that condition ( which is the point that you should prove ) Mat. 5. If it speak of the Church , Christ only tells us what the Church then was , not that it should always remain such ; besides he speaks of their duty , not their condition : and Mat. 28. proves that Christ will be with his Church , but not so as that it shall always be illustrious and united in a great body : this , neither that , nor any of your other Texts , prove , nor can you . But suppose that Christ had made such a promise that his Church should be visible in all Ages in a considerable body ; How do you prove that our Church hath not been so visible in all ages ? Pop. If you affirm that it hath been visible in all Ages , you are bound to produce a Catalogue of your Churches in all successive Ages . Prot. That is not necessary neither : If I did positively affirm that our Church had been visible in such manner in all Ages , then I confess I am bound to prove it . But if I leave it in doubt as a thing which ( for ought you or I know ) might be true or false , he that affirms it was not so , is bound to make it good ; and if I deny your Proposition , by all Laws of dispute , you must prove it : I will shew by an instance how unconvincing your argument is ; There are several Prophesies and Promises in Scripture , the execution whereof is not recorded there , nor any where else ; suppose an Atheist comes to you , and offers this Argument against the Scripture ; If the Scripture be true , and the Word of God , then all its Prophesies and Promises were accomplisht ; but there are several Prophesies and Promises there which never were accomplished within the time appointed , therefore it is not true ; What would you answer ? Pop. I would deny this Proposition , viz. That there are any such Prophesies or Promises there which were not accomplisht . Prot. Suppose then he urge it thus , If they were accomplisht , then you must shew when and how they were accomplisht either in Scripture or other Stories , if you cannot , I shall conclude they never were accomplisht . Pop. I should tell him , That he is obliged to shew they were not accomplisht , not I to shew that they were accomplisht ; I should tell him that they might be accomplisht , though the accomplishment of them were never put into any writing ( and being but an Historical Tradition , might easily be lost ) or if it were put into writing , that also might be lost by the injury of time , as thousands of other Books have been , so that no prudent man will believe this mad Proposition , That nothing was done in former Ages that was not mentioned in the Records which we have . But if it were possible that some particular things were not recorded , or w●re lost , yet it is probable that so eminent and publick a matter as a Succession of Churches should lie hid . Prot. I confess it is not so probable that a large and glorious Church should so lie hid ; but since it was sufficient for the making good of Christs promise of being ever with his Church ; if there were some few Congregations and Ministers , though scattered in divers places , that these should not be recorded , is not at all strange nor improbable to any one who considers , 1. How many matters of far greater note are recorded only in some single Author , which if he had been lost ( and that he was as lyable to , as they that were lost ) the memory of those things had perished with him . 2. How wofully dark and ignorant some ages of the Church were , as you all confess , wherein there was not much reading , but to be sure , there was little or no writing . and that little that was written , was written by men of the times , who would not do their Enemies that honour or right to put them into their Histories : 3. If any did mention such things , it is not at all improbable , that such Book or Books wherein they were recorded , might either be lost by the injury of time , ( as thousands of other Books were , which was much more easie before Printing was found out , or suppressed by the tyranny of your Predecessors , who made it their business ( as Israels enemies of old ) that the name and remembrance of true Christians might be blotted out of the earth . So then , if Christ did indeed promise the perpetual visibility of his Church , I will conclude he made it good , though History be silent in the point ; nor will I conclude it was not done , because it is not recorded : But I pray you let me further ask you , Is it true that I am told , that in the former ages there were many Christians and Ministers whom your Church did persecute and burn for Hereticks ? Pop. That cannot be denyed . Prot. This shews there were not wanting even in former ages , some that testified against your corruptions , and this was a sign they were the true Church , ( whose office it is to contend for the Faith delivered to the Saints ) for these things were not done in a corner . I am told that your great Bellarmine , when is was objected against him , that the Church was obscure in St. Hilaries dayes , answers , that though the true Church may be obscure by multitude of Scandals , yet even then it is visible in its strongest members , as then it was in Athanasius , Hilary , Eusebius , and two or three more whom he mentions : * whence I gather , that some few eminent Preachers and Professors of the Truth are sufficient to keep up this Visibility : I remember I have read in the History of the Waldenses , who ( though your Predecessors branded them with odious names and opinions , yet ) do sufficiently appear to have been a company of Orthodox and serious Christians , and indeed true Protestants , these began about 500 Years ago , saith your Genebrard † , and your Reinerius , who was one of their cruel Butchers , ( otherwise called Inquisitors ) writeth thus of them ; This Sect ( saith he ) is the most pernicious of all others , for three causes ; 1. Because it is of long continuance , some say that it hath endured from the time of Silvester ; others from the time of the Apostles ; The 2. is , because it is more general , for there is almost no Land in which this Sect doth not creep . 3. That whereas all others by the immanity of their blasphemies against God , do make men abhor them , these having a great shew of godliness , because they do live justly before men , and believe all things well of God , and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed , only the Church of Rome they do blaspheme and hate . Behold here out of your own mouths , a plain Confutation of your Objection , and a testimony of the perpetuity , amplitude , visibility , and sanctity of our Church ; for it is sufficiently known that our Church and Doctrine is for substance the same with theirs . Now tell me , I pray you , if this History of them had been lost , and no other mention of them made in other Records , Had it been a truth for you to affirm , that there never were any such men and Churches in that time ? Pop. No surely , for the recording of things in History doth not make them true , nor the silence of Histories about true Occurrences make them false . Prot. Then there might be the like Companies and Congregations in former ages for ought you or I know ; nor can you argue from the defect of an History to the denial of the thing : And all this I say not as if there were no Records which mention our Church in former Ages ; for as I said before , it is sufficiently evident , that all our material Doctrines have been constantly and successively owned by a considerable number of persons in several Ages , but only that you may see there is a flaw in the very foundation of your Argument . Moreover , I finde in Scripture several instances of such times when the Church was as much obscured , and invisible as ever our Church was , as when Israel was in Egypt , so oft-times under the Judges , Iudg. 2. 3. and so under divers of the Kings , as Ahab , when Elijab complained he was left alone , and the 7000. which were reserved , though known to God , were invisible to the prophet ; and under Ahaz and Manasseh , and so in the Babylonish captivity : and so under Antiochus ; read at my desire , 2 Chr. 15. 3. 28. 24. 29. 6 , 7. 33. 3 , 4. so in the New Testament , how obscure , and in a manner invisible , was the Christian Church for a season ! Nay , let me add , this perpetual visibility and splendour is so far from being a note of the true Church , that on the contrary , it is rather a sign that yours is not the true Church , as appears thus : Christ hath foretold the obscurity and smallness of his Church in some after ages ; he tells us that there shall be a general Apostasie and defection from the faith , 2 Thess. 2. 1 Tim. 4. I read of a woman , Rev. 12. and she is forced to flee into the Wilderness ; and I am told your own Expositors agree with us , that this is the Church which flees from Antichrist into the Wilderness , and secret places , withdrawing her self from persecution . Is this true ? Pop. I must confess our Authers do t●ke it so . Prot. Then it seems you do not believe your selves , when you plead the necessity of perpetual visibility and splendour , for here you acknowledge her obscurity ; and really this place and discourse of yours does very much confirm me , that that obscurity which you object against us , is an argument that ours is the true Church though , according to this Prediction , the Pope this Antichrist , did drive our Predecessors into the Wilderness , I read of a Beast rising out of the Sea. Revel . 13. which your own Authors , Menochius , Tirinus , and almost all Expositors ( as Riberus saith ) acknowledge to be Antichrist , and this Beast all the Inhabitants of the World do worship , except those whose names are written in the Book of life , verse 8. that is , excepting only the invisible Church ; if any Church be visible and glorious at that time , it must be the false and Antichristian Church ; and now I speak of that , I have heard that you your selves confess , that in the time of Antichrist the Church shall be obscure , and all publick Worship in the Churches of Christians shall be forbidden and cease : Is it so ? Pop. It is true , it shall be so , i. e. during the time of Antichrists reign , as Bellarmine acknowledgeth * , but that is only for a short moment , for three years and a half , which is all the time that Antichrist shall reign . Prot. I thank you for this , for now you have exceedingly confirmed me in the truth of my Religion ; for since you grant that the Church shall be obscured durings Antichrist reign , I am very well assured that your opinion of the Triennial reign of Antichrist is but a meer dream , and that he was to reign in the Church for many hundred of years , for 1260 dayes , Rev. 11. 3. & 12. 6. ( that is , years , it being a very familiar thing to put dayes for years , in Prophetical Writings . ) But if the Church may be obscured for three years , why not for thirty , yea , three hundred ? Did Christ in his supposed promise of perpetual Visibility in the Church , make an exception for these three years ? I trow not : And tell me , I pray you , should you live till that time when Antichrist shall prevail , and your Religion no less than ours be obscure and invisible ; if any of the followers of Antichrist should dispute against you , that yours was not the true Church because not visible , Would you grant it ? Pop. God forbid I should be so wicked to deny my Mother , and Church , because of her Afflictions . Prot. Then I see you your selves do not believe this to he a good argument , and that you do not make perpetual visibility a necessary token of the true Church . To this I add , there is no need we should shew a constant succession of Protestant Churches ever since the Apostles dayes , ( as you pretend is necessary ) the succession that you pretend in your Church is sufficient for ours , and so long as we generally agree that your Church was a true Church ( till later years ) though wofully corrupted , and our Predecessors continued in it , till your wounds stunk and became incurable , we need no other succession than yours ; but when your impiety came to the height , then we visibly departed from you , and have given such reasons for it , as you will never be able to answer ; In the mean time let me hear what you have further to say . Pop. For as much as all your Ministers confess our Church was once a true Church , I pray you tell me how , and when she did fall ? you cannot tell either the time when she fell , or the manner how , by Apostacy , or Heresie , or Schism ; if you can , name your Authors . Prot. This is a most unreasonable demand : A friend of mine had the Plague last year , and died of it I askt him when he was sick , how and when he got it , he said he knew not ; Shall I then conclude he had it not ? Shall I make Christ a lyar , and dispute that there were no tares , because they were sown when men slept , Mat. 13. 25. and so could not know when or how they came ? Shall I believe no Heresie to be an Heresie , unless I can shew how and when it came into the Church ? What if the Records of these things by the injury of time are lost , and their original left in obscurity ; shall I therefore say , it is now become no Heresie ? I beseech you answer me freely this question . Suppose I could bring plain and strong evidences from the holy Scripture , and from antient Tradition , or the unanimous testimonies of the Antient Fathers , that your Doctrine of Merits ( for instance ) is an Heresie , your Doctrine of worshipping Images is Idolatry ; and that you are in divers particulars apostatized from that faith which the Scriptures and Fathers do own ; in this case , Would you not confess , that you are guilty of Idolatry , Heresie , and Apostasie ? Pop. If it were so , and you could really bring ( as you falsely pretend you can , but indeed cannot ) any such solid proofs , I must and will confess it : For all our Writers agree , that although we must believe many things that are not contained in the Scripture , yet we must believe nothing contrary to the Scriptures , nor to the consent of the antient Fathers . Prot. Very well , hence then I gather that the only question between you and me is , Whether we can evidently and solidly prove the particulars now mentioned , which if we can do , as I am satisfied our Ministers have done , you are convicted in your own Conscience , and will confess your self and your Church guilty of Heresie , Idolatry , and Apostasie , whether I can tell the manner or time , or Authors of this doctrine or no. Therefore leaving these frivolous and impertinent questions , let me hear what you have to say more against our Religion , and whereas your discourse I observe hath wholly run upon Generals , I beseech you come to some particulars , and shew me the falshood of the Doctrines of our Church . But it doth not a little confirm me in my Religion , that you confess ( as I shewed before ) most of our Doctrines to be true , and grounded upon Scripture , whereas yours are additions of your own devising . Now if things be thus , you shall not need to trouble your self about many particulars . But if you please single out some of our principal Heresies , ( as you call them ) and let me hear what evidences you can bring against them . Pop. Your Heresies are very many , but I shall mention one which may be instead of all , and that is your rule of Faith and Iudge of Controversies , which you make to be the Scripture only . Prot , I am glad you have fallen upon so material a point , the deciding whereof may make other Disputes in great part useless . Tell me then what you have to say against this Doctrine . Pop. I will urge four Arguments against it . 1. Scripture hath no authority over us but from the Church . 2. You cannot know what Books are the holy Scriptures , or part of it , but by the Churches report . 3. If neither of these were true , yet Scripture is not a sufficient rule for your faith without Tradition . 4. If it were sufficient , yet it is so obscure , that you cannot know the sense of it without the interpretation of the Church . You see here is a fourfold cord , which you will find is not easily broken . Prot. Make these things good , and I confess you do your work in a great measure . Let me hear your Proofs . Pop. For the first then , I say , that Scripture hath no authority over us but from the Church : neither you nor I are bound to believe the Scripture to be the word of God , nor can any man know it or prove it to be so , but from the testimony of our Church concerning it . Prot. I pray tell me , if you were to discourse with an Atheist , who utterly denies the holy Scriptures and the Church too , Could you not prove against him that the Scriptures are the Word of God ? Pop. God forbid , but that I should be able to defend the truth of the Scriptures against any adversary whatsoever . Prot. How then I pray you would you prove it ? Pop. I need not tell you the Arguments which in this case our Doctors use , and I stand by them in it , they alledge for the truth of the holy Scriptures the testimony of all ages and all sorts of persons , the miracles wrought for it acknowledged even by the Enemies of it , the martyrdom , that so many thousands ( and many of them wise and learned men ) did run upon in the defence of them ( who living so near the time of the writing of them were best able do discern the truth ) and the wonderful power that goes along with them in convincing , converting , and comforting or terrifying sinners . Prot. Do you believe these are solid Arguments , and that the Atheist ought to yield to them ? Pop. Yes doubtless , for every man is bound to receive the truth , especially when it is so proposed and proved to him . Prot. It seems then by this , when you list , you can prove the Scripture to be the Word of God without taking in the Churches Authority ; I hope you will allow me the same benefit . But again let me ask you , your Church that you talk of , which believes the Scripture to be the Word of God ; Doth she believe it to be the Word of God upon solid grounds or no ? Pop. Yes doubtless , our Church is not so irrational as to believe without grounds ; nor do we pretend Revelation , but she believes it upon solid Arguments . Prot. I wish you would give me a list of their Arguments : But whatever they be that are sufficient to convince your Church , why should they not be sufficient to convince any private man , Popish or Protestant , or Atheist ? And therefore there is no need of the Churches testimony : Or will you say , the Church hath no other sufficient reason to believe the Scriptures but her own testimony , that is , she believes because she will believe ? Pop. God forbid that I should disparage the Church , or give Atheists that occasion to scoff at the Stripture . Prot. Then I also may be satisfied without the Churches testimony , that the Scriptures are the Word of God ; and I am so , by such Arguments as your self mentioned ; but really I cannot but smile to see what cunning sophisters you are , how you play at fast and loose : The same Arguments for the Scriptures are strong and undeniable when you talk with an Atheist , and are all of a sudden become weak as water when a Protestant brings them . Pop. But if you can prove in the General , That the Scriptures are the Word of God , yet you cannnot without the Churches Authority , tell what Books of Scripture , or which are Canonical , and so you are never the nearer . Prot. Here also I must ask you again , How doth your Church know which Books are Scripture and Canonical , doth she know this by Revelation ? Pop. No , we leave such fancies to your Church . Prot. How then doth she know this , and why doth she determine it ? Is it with reason , or without it ? Pop. With reason doubtless , being induced to believe and determine it upon clear and undoubted Evidences . Prot. I pray you tell me what are those Evidences upon which she goes . Pop. I will be true to you , our great Bellarmine mentions these three , The Church ( saith he ) knows and declares a Canonical Book , 1. From the testimonies of the Antients . 2. From its likeness and agreement with other Books . 3. From the common sense and taste of Christian people * . Prot. Since a private man especially one that besides learning and experience hath the Spirit of God to guide him , which is that anointing given to all Believers , which teaches them all things , 1 Joh. 2. 27. ) may examine and apprehend these things as well as the Pope himself , ( and better too , considering what kind of creatures divers of your Popes are confest to have been ) he may therefore know without the Churches Authority , what Books are indeed Canonical ; but I pray you tell me , Do not you acknowledge those books to be the Word of God which we do that are in this Bible ? Pop. I must be true to you , we do own every Book you have there ; but you should receive the Books which you call Apocryphal , so that indeed your Bible is not compleat , for you believe but a part of the written Word of God , which I must tell you is of dangerous consequence . Prot. If these Books be a part of Gods Word , I confess we are guilty of a great sin , in taking away from Gods Word ; and if they be not , you are no less guilty in adding to it ; so that the only question is , Whether these Books be a part of the holy Scripture or no ? Now , that if you please we will try Bellarmines rules . Pop. The motion is fair and reasonable . Prot. First then , for the judgment of the Antient Church , let us try that ; I know you hold the Churches judgment infallible , especially in matters of this moment ; and I suppose you think the Iewish Church was infallible before Christ , as the Christian Church now is . Pop. We do so , and the Infallibility of the Iewish Church and High Priest , Deut. 17. is one of our principal Arguments for the Infallibility of our Church * . Prot. Then only these Books of the old Testament were Canonical , which the Jewish Church did own . Pop. That must necessarily follow . Prot. Then your cause is lost , for it is certain , the Jews rejected these Apocryphal Books which you receive , and they reckoned only 22. Iosephus his words ( acknowledged for his by Eusebius † ) , are most express for us , The Iews have only 22 Books , to which they deservedly give credit , which contains things written from the beginning of the World to the times of Artaxerxes : other things were written afterward , ( so the Apocryphal Books are granted to have been ) but they are not of the same credit with the former , because There was no certain succession of Prophets , b and I am told divers of your learned Authors confess it , as Catharinus , c Costerus , d Marianus Victor , e and Bellarmine himself , whose words are these ; All those Books which the Protestants do not receive , the Iews also did not receive : f and this is more considerable , because to the Iews were committed the Oracles of God , Rom. 3. 2. And neither Christ nor his Apostles did accuse them of breach of trust in this matter . Moreover , I am told ( and surely in all reason it must needs be true ) that the Canonical Books of the Iewish Church were written in the Iewish or Hebrew language , whereas these were written in Greek only . Are these things so ? Pop. What is true I will acknowledge ; It is so ; The Jewish Church indeed did not receive them , nor yet did they reject them , as our Canus well answers . g Prot. Either that Church did believe them to be Canonical , or they did not ; if they did , then they lived in a mortal sin against Conscience in not receiving them ; if they did not , they were of our opinion . Pop. Well , what soever the Jewish Church did , I am sure the Antient Christians and Fathers did receive these Books as a part of the Canonical Scriptures . Prot. I doubt I shall take you tardy there too ; I am told that the Council of Laodicea , ( in the year of our Lord 364. ) drew up a Catalogue of the Books of the Scripture , in which ( as in ours ) the Apocryphal Books are rejected . Pop. It is true , they did not receive them , nor yet reject them . Prot. If they did not receive them , that undeniably shews that they did not believe them to be Canonical , and yet they diligently scanned the point , and the Books had then been extant some hundred of years , and they were far more likely to know the truth than we at this distance , having then such special opportunities of knowing the judgement of the antient Church , both Iewish and Christian : Besides , I am informed that the famous Bishop of Sardis Melito , ( a man of great judgment and venerable holiness , as your Sixtus Senensis saith ) did take a journey to the Eastern Churches ( where the Apostles principally preached ) to find out the true Canon of the Scripture , and returned with the same Canon that we own ; but for the Apochrypha brought home a Non est inventus : And moreover that divers of your greatest Champions do confess , that a great number of the Antient Fathers were of our opinion , among which themselves reckon Melito , Origen , Athanasius , Eusebius , Ruffinus , Hierom , and Amphilocius , so say Canus and Bellarmine , and Andradius ; and in the General , Sixtus Senensis confesseth , that the Antient Fathers were of our opinion . Are these things so ? Pop. I will not deny the truth , it is so ; but you must know that other Fathers were of another minde , as Clemens , Cyprian , and Ambrose , and especially St. Austin , and the Council of Carthage . Prot. The Fathers of our opinion , were both far more numerous , and such as lived nearest the Apostolical Times , and Churches : The Council of Laodicea was more antient than that of Carthage , ( and therefore of greater Authority ) and besides , the sixth Council of Constantinople doth expresly confirm all the Decrees of the Council of Laodicea , among which this was one ) and the Council of Carthage too doth not your work : For in their Catalogue there is both more than you own , to wit , the third Book of Esdras , ( although they call it the second , as the Greeks did ) and less too , for they shut out Baruch and the Maccabees ; But besides all this , I am told that very many of your most eminent Doctors have disowned these Books which we reject , as the Parisian Divines , and Cardinal Ximenius , with the Complutensian University , and Aquinas , and Lyra , and Pagnim , and many others . Is it so ? Pop. I confess this is true . * Prot. Then I am sure this may satisfie any rational man , concerning the Testimony of the Antient Church ; and for the next point , viz. their agreement with the Canonical Books . I think it is plain enough that they do grosly contradict them , and the truth too ; that fact of Simeon and Levi , which good Iacob acted by Gods Spirit detesteth , Iudith commends , Chap. 9. Tobit is said to have lived 202. years , Chap. 14. whereas if he said true , he must have lived twice as long , for he saith he was taken captive by Salmanasser , Chap. 1. and 2. and 14. and when he was about to die , he saith , the time was near for the return of the Israelites from their Captivity , and the re-building of the Temple which was burn'd : If the Books of the Maccabees say true , Antiochus his soul had a lease of his body for three lives , and he was killed thrice over , ( I commend the Author , he was resolved to make sure work of him . ) 1. He dies at Babylon in his bed , 1 Mac. 2. 6. then he is stoned in the Temple of Nanea , 2 Mac. 1. Lastly , he dyes in the Mountains by a fall out of his Chariot , 2 Maccab. 9. And the fine fetches of your Authors to reconcile these gross contradictions , put me in mind of a story we heard at School ( if you remember ) of a Gentleman that told this lye , * That he shot a Deer at one shot through his right ear , and left hinder leg ; and you know how hard his man was put to it to help his Master out ; but I will not launch forth into the Sea of untruths and absurdities that are contained in those Books ; these may suffice to shew you that we do not without warrant reject them ; but howsoever it is sufficient for my purpose , that you grant that my Bible as the Word of God , and these Books in it Canonical , and I can know this without the Churches Authority . Pop. Do not make too much haste , if I do grant that these Books in the Original Language are the Word of God , yet yours is but a Translation . Prot. Is it rightly translated for the substance , or is it not ? What Bible is that which you have ? Pop. A Latin Bible . Prot. Is that the Word of God , and rightly translated ? Pop. Yes , the Council of Trent hath decreed so . Prot. Then I pray you let us try this Experiment ; do you pick out any 20. verses in several parts of the Bible , and turn them into English out of your Bible . Pop. The motion is fair , I will do it . Prot. I do not finde any substantial difference in all these places between your Translation and mine , the difference is wholly in words , not at all in sense ; so now , I thank you for this occasion , for I have heard some of your Priests ranting highly against our Translation , and now I see they have no cause for it . Pop. If all this were over , yet the Scripture is not a sufficient Rule to guide you to Heaven of it self without Tradition . Prot. Why so I beseech you ? Pop. Because you are also commanded there to hold the Tradition , true in your Bible to 2 Thes. 2. 15. Hold the Traditions which ye have been taught , whether by Word or Epistle . Prot. How do you prove that he speaks of such Traditions as were not written in the Scripture ? Pop. Because he so plainly distinguisheth between what he taught them by word , and what he taught them by Epistle or Writing . Prot. That may be true that he speaks of some things of which he had not written to them , and yet they might be written by him to others , or by others , at least after that time ; but besides , notwithstanding this distinction between Word and Epistle , divers of your own Authors affirm , that Tradition is perfect , and that St. Paul taught all things necessary by word of mouth ; and why may not I as well say , that he taught all by Epistle ? But I pray you , What do you mean by these Traditions ? Pop. I mean all the Traditions which either he , or any other Apostles did deliver : all these you are bound to receive . Prot. I will not quarrel with you for that , bring me solid proofs of any of your unwritten Traditions , that they did indeed come from the Apostles , I promise you I will joyfully receive them ; But I pray you , what are these Traditions you speak of ? Pop. Such as these , the Doctrine of Purgatory , Invocation of Saints , of the Popes Supremacy , of the single life of Priests , of the Fasts of the Church , private Masses , Worship of Images , &c. Prot. And do you think , that all that did not believe and receive these Traditions shall be damned ? Pop. No , by no means , for , then I should condemn many of the Holy Fathers and Martyrs who differed from us at least in some of these Points . Prot. Then it is not necessary to salvation to receive these Traditions ; and the Scripture may be sufficient without them : But further , These unwritten Traditions you talk of , I beseech you how came you to discover them , and discern the true from the false ? Pop. I altogether approve of Bellarmin 's Rule , which is this , That ( saith he ) is a true Tradition , which all former Doctors have successively in their several Ages acknowledged to come from the Apostles , and by their Doctrine or Practices have approved , and which the Universal Church owneth as such ; and the reason is , because the Universal Church cannot erre * . Prot. I see all depends upon this Foundation , that the Catholick Church ( in your sense ) cannot erre ; which , having disproved , I need not trouble my self further : But to wave that , How I pray you do you know what former Doctors have successively owned by word or practice ? I presume none of your Popes have so good a memory as to remember all that hath been said or done in former Ages , though in my opinion when your inventions were upon the wheel , and you did confer upon the Pope an infallible judgment , you should have given him also an all-sufficient memory , and then you had done your work . Pop. No Sir , we pretend no such thing : but we know this from the Writings which the Doctors have left . It is true , Bellarmine mentions another rule , which is the continual usage of the Church in all ages ; but ( to deal candidly with you ) I cannot know what their use was , but by their Writings ; so all must come to that . Prot. First , then I note , you forsake your cause , and it seems a writing is now made a rule for your unwritten Traditions ; if it may be so , let me beg your favourable opinion of the Apostles writings ; Besides , those Writers which record these Traditions , were they infallible ? Pop. No , we do not hold any particular Writers Infallible , especially not in matters of Fact , such as reporting a Tradition or use of the Church undoubtedly is . Prot. Then they might mistake false Traditions for true : Besides , how can I tell what the Antient Doctors did agree in , since most of them never wrote ; and many of their writings are lost ; and yet all of them had equal liberty of voting in this case ? besides , I have heard that divers of the Antient Fathers did report several things to be Apostolical Traditions which your Church now rejecteth , as that Infants should receive the Communion , and that Christ should reign on earth a thousand years , and many others : I am told also , that your great Baronius , writing concerning the Apostles , professeth , He despairs to find out the truth , even in those matters which true Writers have recorded ; because there was nothing which remained sincere and incorrupted : Is it so ? Pop. You shall find me ingenuous ; it is so , Baronius saith it , Anno 44. sect . 42. Prot. Then truly I shall bid Tradition ( in your sense ) good night : For as to your Traditions I see there is no certainty in them . Shall I forsake the certain and acknowledged verity of the Scripture for such trash ? God forbid . Again , I pray you tell me , doth not every wise man that makes any thing , make it sufficient for its end ? If you build an house to live in , will not you make it sufficient for that end ? If a man makes a Sword to cut with , a Coat of Male to defend him , &c. is he not a fool if he doth not , if he can , make them sufficient for their end and use ? Pop. That must needs be granted . Prot. And was not our Instruction and Salvation the end for which God wrote the Scripture ? Pop. How do you prove that it was ? Prot. God himself tells me so , Iohn 20. 31. These things are written that you may believe that Iesus is the Christ , the Son of God , and that believing you might have life through his Name . Pop. S. John speaks there of Miracles , not of doctrines , and so that is nothing to the purpose . Prot. He speaks of Miracles , which were done in confirmation of the Doctrine of Christ , and so the Doctrine is not to be excluded : besides , I suppose you will not say that S. Iohn wrote the Doctrines of Christ for one end , and the Miracles for another : Moreover , it plainly appears , both that this was the end for which the Scripture was written , and that it is sufficient for its end , from that 2 Tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. he saith expresly , The Scriptures are able to make a man of God wise unto salvation . * Pop. Well , but if all these things be so , yet since the Scripture is dark and doubtful , and you can never apprehend the true meaning of it but from the Church , you are never the nearer ; and the Scripture is not a convenient judge of Controversies . Prot. Tell me I pray , doth your Church understand the true meaning of the Scripture ? Pop. Yes doubtless , because she hath the Spirit of God. Prot. Then certainly she is most deeply guilty of uncharitableness , or envy , or cruelty to souls , that she doth not put forth a clear and infallible Comment upon the whole Scripture , but still suffers the whole world to live in contention about the true meaning of hundreds of Texts of Scripture . Pop. She forbears that , for reasons best known to her self : But this is not much to the purpose . Prot. Whereas you pretend your Church certainly knows the true sense of the Scripture , and this Church you say is the Pope , or a Council , and if these be infallible , you say they are so in their Decrees : If this be so , how comes it to pass that none do more grosly mistake , and mis-apply Scripture than divers of your Popes and councils have done , even in their Decrees , and decretal Epistles ( which you reverence as the Gospel ) ? Your Pope Nicholas the first , proves his Supremacy from that Text , Arise Peter kill and eat : small encouragement to us to become his sheep , if he so use them ; and from hence , that Peter drew to the shore his net full of Fishes , your Pope Boniface the eighth proves it from Gen. 1. 1. In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth , therefore the Pope hath power in Temporals and Spirituals : and this ( saith he ) you must hold , unless with the Manichees you hold two principles : And your councils are not more happy Expositors . The council of Lateran proves the Popes power from Psa. 72. ( which speaks of Solomon and Christ ) All Kings shall fall down before him . The second council of Nice alledges these Scriptures for the Worship of Images , that God created man in his own Image , Gen. 1. Let me see thy countenance , Cant. 2. No man when he hath lighted a Candle covereth it under a vessel , Luk. 8. 16. In my opinion they spoke like a council , expecting that the world should receive their Decrees , not for any solidity of Argument ( that had been pedantick ) but meerly for the Churches Majesty and Authority . Nay , the jest is , when their Adversaries had taken notice of these absurd impertinencies , up steps Pater Noster , Pope Adrian , and he saith , he will maintain it ( in spite of fate ) that they alledged them rightly and excellently : So here we have a Pope and council joyning together ( and therefore undoubtedly infallible ) in these Expositions . Nay , the council of Trent it self ( when one would expect they should have grown wiser , though not better ) prove the unequal power of Popes , Bishops , and Priests , from Rom. 13. 1. The powers that be are ordained of God ; that is , digested into order . I hope ere you have done , you will put forth an entire Comment upon the whole Bible , which I assure you will be the rarest book that ever saw the light . But further , I desire to know of you how your Church comes to have this true and certain sense of Scripture ; hath she it by Revelation or Inspiration ? Pop. No , we pretend to no such thing ; but she comes to know it by the diligent use of means , by prayer , by reading , and comparing Scripture , by consulting ancient Interpreters , Analogy of Faith , the coherence , &c. and even the Pope himself , when he set forth his Translation of the Bible , He professes to all the world , that he did it in the very same manner , and by the same helps , that other Translators do ; that is , by advising with learned Men , and consulting Antient Copies , and the like * . Prot. Very good , Then I pray you tell me why a Protestant Minister ( being oft times both a learneder and better man than the Pope ) may not as certainly hit upon the true sense of the Scripture as the Pope himself . Pop. The reason is plain , because the Pope is guided by the infallible assistance of Gods Spirit . Prot. You ought not to rant at this height , until you have solidly answered what our Divines have wrote against this Infallibility . And I heard before the woful weakness of your arguments ; for it is to me the vainest thing in the world to pretend a promise of the Spirit of God infallibly to guide such men , as ( if the Scripture be true ) have not the Spirit of Christ in them , being ( as you confess many of your Popes and Bishops were ) sensual , not having the Spirit : and having apparently no other spirit in them , but the spirit of the world , the spirit that lusteth to envy and all wickedness : But since you pretend the Scripture is so dark , I pray you tell me , what was the end for which God designed the Scripture ? Sure I think it was for our understanding ; my Bible tells me , that whatsoever things were written aforetime , were written for our learning , Rom. 15. 4 But if you say true , it seems God meant only to put forth riddles : Gods Law was designed by him for a light , and that even to the simple , Psal. 19. 7 , 8 , 9. and 119 , 105. And in a word , the Gospel is so clear , that Saint Paul pronounceth , it is hid from none but them that perish , 2 Cor. 4. 3 , 4. And Saint Luke wrote his Gospel , that Theophilus ( and with him other Christians ) might know the certainty of those things wherein they had been instructed , Luke 1. 4. and generally every discreet man that writes a Book , writes it so , as it may be understood ; especially if it be for the benefit of the ignorant , as well as the learned ( which the Scripture assuredly was . ) Tell me then I pray you , why should God write his mind so darkly and doubtfully as you know whose Oracles are said to be delivered ? was it because God could not write plainer ( and wanted the gift of utterance ) or because he would not ? Pop. Notwithstanding all this , it is certain , the Scripture is full of obscure places . Prot. I do not deny this : but those things which are obscurely delivered in one place , are more clearly delivered in another ; and those dark places generally are about Prophecies , and such other things ; the knowledge of which is not necessary to salvation , But for necessaries the Scripture is plain , and I am told , that divers of your Authors acknowledge so much : Is that true ? Pop. I confess Costerus hath this expression , that things which are necessary to be known by all Christians , are plainly and clearly delivered in the writings of the Apostles , and some others of our Doctors say as much * * See nullity of Rom. faith , chap. 7. sect . 4. Prot. It could be nothing but the evidence of the truth which forced such an acknowledgment from its greatest Adversaries , therefore let this go , and let me hear what further you have to say against our Religion . Pop. I find you are an obstinate Heretick , and setled upon the lees , and therefore it will be needless to discourse further with you ; if any thing could have convinced you , surely the Arguments I have offered would have done it ; for I assure you I have pickt out the strength and marrow of the Catholick Cause in the Points we have discoursed . And since I see you turn a deaf ear to my counsel , I shall give you over as incorrigible . Prot. You see I have heard you with great patience , and given you all the freedom you could desire ; now I have one request to you , that you would allow me the same priviledge , with patience to hear , and , if you can , answer what I shall object against your Religion . Pop. With a very good will , I 'le meet you here to morrow at this time , so at present adieu . The SECOND CONFERENCE . Prot. WEll met Sir , I see you are as good as your word , and I hope you will allow me as much freedom and patience as I did you . Pop. I shall willingly do it , therefore speak freely , and so will I , and if truth be on your side let it prevail . Prot. I shall divide my discourse into two Parts . 1. Some General Considerations , which indeed do very much set me against your Religion . 2. I shall examine the grounds of your Principal Points of Doctrine ; for to meddle with all , will be needless : If your Pillars fall the rest cannot stand . For the first , there are several weighty Considerations against your Religion ; I shall give you them in order . The first General Consideration is this ; 1. That your Church declines all Judgment but her own , and makes her self Judge in her own Cause ; you do not allow Scripture to be Judge , nor the Antient Fathers ( for all your talk of Antiquity ) nor indeed any but your selves , the Pope , or a Council of your own , and your Church it seems must determine , whether she be a true Church or no , and whether she be pure or corrupted , or whether she be Infallible or no ; Is this so ? Pop. I confess this is our Doctrine , and I think grounded upon Reason . Prot. You speak against the common sense of all men . In all Controversies or Differences between men and men , we generally suspect that party who will submit to no judgment but his own ; and he who is willing to refer himself to any third indifferent party , is generally presumed to have the best cause ; and th●s is our case , Protestants do not make themselves and their own Church the only Judge ( though they might as justly and reasonably do it as you ) but they are very willing to submit to other Judges , they refer themselves to be judged by the Scripture , which is acknowledged to be a most indifferent Judge ; If that do not please you , they refer themselves to the Fathers for the first six hundred years , till your abominations had leavened the world , according to what was foretold , Rev. 13. 8. II. My second consideration is this ; You do not only decline the Scriptures judgment , but you infinitely disparage and vilifie it . I meet with several passages quoted out of your Authors to that purpose . Pop. Possibly you may out of some inconsiderable ones , but not out of any of note and name in our Church . Prot. Yes , out of your prime Authors , I read that Cardinal Hosius in his Advertisement to King Sigismund hath this expression , If they ( that is , the Hereticks ) say , It is written , that is the voice of the Devil , speaking in his members a . But that it is below a Cardinal to read the Bible , he would have found the words also in Christs mouth . I read that Costerus calls the Scripture by way of contempt Paper and Parchment . God ( saith he ) would no● have his Church ( by which always understand the Papists themselves ) now depend upon Paper and Parchment , as Moses made the carnal Israelites : And again , That which is written in the heart of the Church , doth by many degrees excel the Scriptures : First , because that was written by the finger of God , but this by the Apostles a , as if the Writings of the Apostles were only a device of man. I read that Cardinal Pool writing to Henry the Eighth , saith thus , What an absurd thing is this , that thou dost attribute more authority to the Scripture than to the Church , since the Scripture hath no authority but for the decree of the Church b ? ( He means the Roman Church . ) I see we are highly concerned to please your Church , else we are like to have no Scriptures . I read that Pighius saith , The Apostles did never intend to subject our faith to their writings , but rather their writings to our faith c . And afterward he saith , The Scriptures are ( as one said , not more pleasantly than truly ) a nose of wax which suffers it self to be drawn hither or thither , as a man pleaseth d . I read that your Bullenger saith ; The Scripture is the Daughter , the Church the Mother , which gives being and sufficiency to her she begets . ( No wonder then , the Church makes bold with the Scripture to add , or alter , or dispense with it . We all know the Mother may correct the Daughter . ) I confess , when I read those passages produced by our Writers , I suspected they wronged them . Are these things true ? Pop. I acknowledge it , and it is a vain thing for me to deny it , for the Books and those passages in them are extant under their own hands : And I must confess , these Authors are as considerable and approved as any we have . But you ought to put a favourable sense upon them . Prot. I would not strain them , nor make them worse than they are . Take them as you will , they are abominable expressions , and ( to me ) a great evidence , that the Scripture is no friend to your Church . And I conclude this to be one accomplishment of what Christ hath said , Every one that doth evil hateth the light , neither cometh to the light , lest his deeds should be reproved , John 3. 20. And if this be the spirit by which your Church is guided , I am sure it is not the Spirit of God and of Truth ; for that teacheth men reverence and love to the Scriptures : You seem to do like Herod , who being convinced that he was not of the Royal race of the Iews , did burn their Genealogies and Records , that his false pretences might not be confuted by them . And just so do you endeavour to do by the Scriptures : III. My third Consideration against your Religion is this ; That your Cause is such as dares not abide tryal : This is the honour and happiness of our Religion ; We are allowed to examine all that our Ministers say , and we have a Rule ( which we may peruse ) to try them by , viz. the holy Scriptures , which you dare not suffer your people to read . And this I take to be a secret confession of your guilt ; and I am told your Alphonsus de Castro saith , That from the reading of the Scripture all Heresies come * . Pop. I think your experience hath justified that expression , You see what you get by the reading of the Scriptures , even this , that you are crumbled into a thousand Sects . Prot. Our Saviour was not of your mind , for he thought not acquaintance with , but ignorance of the Scriptures was the cause of Error ; Ye erre , not knowing the Scriptures , Mat. 22. 29. Nor did he only allow , but command the Iews to search the Scriptures , without any fear of this inconvenience , Iohn 5. 39. Had S. Paul been of your mind , he would not have commended , but reproved the Beraans for searching the Scriptures , and examining his Doctrine by them , Act. 17. 11. If any of your people should do as the Beraeans did , they would be sent to the Inquisition . I do not deny , but too many make a bad use of the Scripture , and wrest it to wicked purposes , which is to me no better an argument than this ; Wine makes many men drunk , therefore no Wine must be sold. The Doctrine of Free Grace was abused by thousands ( as we read ) therefore S. Paul did ill in preaching of it . The light of the Sun hurts sore eyes , therefore Solomon was mistaken , when he said , It is a pleasant thing to behold the Sun. But since you speak of this , I pray you let me ask you one question ; Were not most of the Heresies that ever were in the Church , brought in by learned men ? Pop. I cannot deny that , for it is notoriously known . Prot. Then you shut up the wrong door ; for , it seems , it is not the unlearned mans reading , but the learned mans perverting the Scripture , which is the true cause and fountain of Heresies : And besides , you must not do evil , that good may come out of it , nor defraud people of their greatest treasure , nor keep them from their duty , for fear of some inconveniencies . This is to make your selves wiser than God. Pop. But indeed you slander us in this point : We do not absolutely forbid reading of the Scriptures . The Council of Trent allows it , provided you can get the Bishops leave . Prot , It is true , that Council pretends to give some such liberty ; but they take away with one hand , what they gave with the other ; for in their Index of forbidden Books , they have this passage : Since experience sheweth that the promiscuous reading of the Bible brings more evil than good , therefore if any man shall dare to read , or have a Bible without license from the Bishop , or Inquisitor , he shall not be capable of absolution * unless he part with his Bible . But in truth , this pretended License is but an handsome blind : For in that very place there is this Observation added to that Rule , That the power of giving such Licenses of reading , or keeping the vulgar Bibles , is taken away from such Bishops and Inquisitors , by the command and usage of the Roman and universal Inquisition . At best , it seems , I must not obey Christs command of searching the Scriptures , unless the Bishop give me leave . But I pray you tell me ; Do your people use to ask , and the Bishops to give them leave to read the Bible ? Pop. I will not dissemble with you , They do not . And , the truth is , an approved Writer of ours , Ledesima puts the question ; What if a man should come to the Bishop , and desire liberty to read the Bible , and that with a good intention ? to which he replies , that the Bishop should answer him in the words of Christ , Matt. 20. 20. Ye know not what ye ask , and Indeed ( saith he , and he saith it truly ) the root of this demand is an heretical disposition * . Prot. Then I perceive in this , as well as in other things , you are more careful to deceive people with pretences , than to inform them . But indeed , you tell me no more than I had read , or heard out of your own Authors . It was the speech of your Pope Innocent , That the Mountain which the Beasts must not touch is the high and holy Scriptures which the unlearned must not read * and your Doctors commonly affirm , that people must not be suffered to read the Scriptures , because we must not give holy things to Dogs , nor cast Pearls before swine . My fourth General consideration against your Religion is this , That it grosly contradicts the great designs and ends of the Christian Religion , which all confess to be such as these , the glorifying of God , and his Son Jesus Christ , and the humbling and abasing of men , the beating down of all sin , and the promoting of serious holiness . Are not those the chief ends of Religion ? Pop. I do freely acknowledge they are , and our Religion doth most answer these ends . Prot. That you and I will now try And for the first : Your Religion doth highly dishonour God sundry ways . What can be a greater dishonour to God , than to make the holy Scriptures ( which you confess to be the Word of God ) to depend upon the Testimony and Authority of your Pope , or Church , and to say , that the Word of God is but a dead letter , and hath no authority over us without their Interpretation and Approbation ; By which means malefactors ( for such all men are , Rom. 3. 9 , 10. your Pope not excepted ) are made Judges of , and superiour to that Law whereby they are condemned . Tell me ; would not the French King take it for a great dishonour , if any of his Subjects should say , That his Edicts and Decrees had no Authority over his People without their approbation ? Pop. Yes , doubtless he would . Prot. Just so you deal with God : and what can be a fouler dishonour to God , than that which your great Stapleton affirmed , and Gretser and others justified , and your Church to this day have never disowned it : That the Divinity of Christ and of God ( in respect of us ) depends upon the Authority of the Pope ? * And what more dishonourable to God than what your great Champion Bellarmine saith , That , if the Pope should erre in forbidding Virtues ( which God hath commanded ) and commanding Vices ( which God hath forbidden ) ; And that he may so erre , divers of your most famous and approved Authors confess , * the Church were bound to believe Vices to be good , and Vertues bad , unless she would sin against Conscience ; † that is , in plain terms , the Pope is to be obeyed before God. Again , is it not highly dishonorable to God , to give the Worship which is proper to God , unto the Creature ? I confess the Prophet Isaiah hath convinced me of it , Isa. 42 , 8. I am the Lord , that is my Name , and my glory will I not give to another , neither my praise to graven Images . Pop. I also am of the same mind ; but it is a scandal of your Ministers , to say we give Gods honour to the Creature : I know where about you are , you mean it of Images , whereas we worship them with a lower kind of Worship . Prot. You worship them with such a kind of worship , as neither Angels nor Saints durst receive . Cornelius did not worship Peter with a Divine Worship as God ( for he knew he was but Gods Minister ) yet Peter durst not receive it . It was an inferiour Worship which the Devil required of Christ , for he acknowledges at the same time , God to be his Superiour , and the giver of that power he claimeth , Luke 4. 6. And yet that was the Worship , which Christ saith God hath forbidden , to be given to any Creature . You are a valiant man , that dare venture your immortal soul upon a nice School distinction . I pray you , do you not worship the Bread in the Sacrament , with that worship which you call Latria , which is proper to God ? Pop. We do so , and that upon very good reason , because it is not Bread , but the very Body of Christ into which the Bread is turned . Prot. But what if the Bread be not converted in Christs Body : Is it not then an high dishonour to God , and indeed damnable Idolatry ? Pop. Yes , our Fisher the famous Martyr and Bishop of Rochester , saith , No man can doubt , if there be nothing in the Eucharist but Bread , that the whole Church hath been guilty of Idolatry for a long time , and therefore must needs be damned * ; but we are well assured , that it is no longer Bread ; and yet I must add this ; If peradventure it should still remain Bread , yet for as much as we believe it , to be the Body of our Lord , our ignorance , I hope , would excuse us from Idolatry , and God would not impute it to us . Prot. Tell me , I beseech you , Will all kind of ignorance excuse a man ? Pop. No certainly , There is a wilful and affected ignorance ; which , because it is against clear light , will not excuse . Prot. Tell me farther , Did this excuse the Iews from their sin of crucifying Christ , and the damnation due to it , that they did it ignorantly ? Act. 3. 17. Pop. No , because they shut their eyes against the plain light , and clear evidence of that truth that Christ was the Messias . Prot. No less do you in the doctrine of the Sacrament ; for they had no greater evidences against them , than Sense , and Reason , and Scripture ; all which you reject , ( as I shall prove by Gods help . ) And as your Religion dishonours God , so doth it also highly dishonour Jesus Christ whom he hath sent , who is expresly called the one Mediatour , 1 Tim. 2. 5. But you have conferred that honour upon many others , Saints and Angels . Pop. True , there is but one chief Mediatour , but there may be other secondary Mediatours . Prot. In like manner , to that which the Apostle there saith , there is but one God ; it might be said , there are other secondary gods , and so we might introduce the Heathen gods into the Church . It is the great Prerogative of Jesus Christ , that he is the Redeemer of the World ; yet your Bellarmine was not afraid to communicate this honour to the creature , and expresly saith , It is not absur'd , that holy men be called our Redeemers after a sort * , and more of the like stuff we shall meet with before we part : yet again , your Religion as it depresseth God , so it exalts the creature . I will instance but in one thing , and that is your Doctrine of Justification by the merit of good works : A doctrine , which S. Paul affirms , gives unto a man matter of boasting and glorying , Rom. 3. 27. Where is boasting then ? it is excluded , By what Law ? of Works ? Nay , but by the Law of Faith , & Rom. 4. 2. For if Abraham were justified by works , he hath whereof to glory . Next , you grant , That it is the great design and intent of Religion , to discourage and beat down sin , which your Religion doth exceedingly incourage by your Doctrines and Practice in Absolutions and Indulgences . In my acquaintance , I have known several Papists that have wonderfully encouraged themselves in their wicked wayes from this consideration ; especially when Easter drew near , because they knew they should very suddenly be shriven , and absolved , and be ( as they said ) as sound and clean as when they came first into the world . I have known also divers of our loose Protestants that have turn'd to your Religion , that they might have greater liberty for , and the security in sin ; and in my Conscience , If I would let my lusts choose a Religion for me , they would presently lead me to your Religion : And so again , your Religion doth not at all promote serious holiness , but the soul and spirit of it is dwindled away into meer formality : What can be of more pestilent consequence to true holiness than to tell a man , that the saying so many Pater-Nosters , or Ave-Maries , ( though it may be he is talking , or gazing about in the midst of his Devotions ) will procure him acceptance with God ? Is it true , that your great and devout Doctor Suarez saith , That is it not essential to Prayer , that a man should think of what he saith ? Pop. It is true , he doth say so in his Book of Prayer . Prot. Then I confess , your Religion hath the advantage of ours , for a man may do two businesses at once : It hath set me much against your Religion , since I understood that you turned that great Doctrine of Repentance into a meer formality : What a sad Doctrine is it that your great Masters teach , that Repentance is not necessary at all times , but only on Holy-daies , ( as some of your Authors say ) only once in a year , that is , at Easter ( as others . ) Nay indeed , once in all his life , and that in danger of death ( as Navar , and Cajetan ) ? what an encouragement is this to wickedness , to tell men that a thousand of their sins are venial , which though not repented of , will not exclude them from the favour of God , and from Salvation ; but I will rake no farther into this kennel . I think this may serve turn , to let you see , that I had warrant to say , That your Religion contradicts the design , and end of all Religion . V. The fifth Consideration that sets me against your Religion , is the desperate issues that you are driven to in the defence of your Cause ; as for example , in the great point of Infallibility , I observe your learned Doctors are beaten out of all their former Assertions and Opinions ; you have been driven from Scripture to the Fathers , from them to the Pope , from him to a Council , and thence to the Pope with a Council , and ( as a further sign of a desperate cause ) the Jesuits are brought to that exigence , that they are forced to affirm the Pope to be infallible in matters of fact , which is confessedly a new , upstart , and indeed , monstrous Opinion ; and yet those piercing wits see their cause cannot be defended without it : and others seeing the vanity of all their former pretences , have been forced to resolve all into the present Churches testimony . * So for the point of Idolatry , you are driven to those straits , that you cannot excuse your selves from Idolatry , but by such pretences as will excuse both Jewish and Gentile Idolaters ; and one of your ablest Champions is brought to this plunge , that he is forced to affirm , that some Idolatry is lawful * : I might instance in very many others , but I forbear . VI. A sixth consideration is taken from the partiality of your Religion ; That Religion which is from God , is doubtless agreeable to the Nature and Will of God. But so is not your Religion , for it is guilty of that respect of persons which Scripture every where denies to be in God , Act. 10. 34. Rom. 2. 11. Iob 34. 19. Pop. How is our Religion guilty of respect of persons ? Prot. I might shew it in many things , but I will confine my self to one particular ; and that is , in point of Indulgences : The Souls of all that die in venial sins , are doomed to those terrible pains of Purgatory , there to continue none knows how long ( by the way , I cannot but take notice of the great unhappiness of those Christians , that lived and died in the dayes of Christ and the Apostles , that have been multitudes of them frying in Purgatory to this day , and are like to be so as long as the World lasts ; whereas those that live nearer the end of the World , must needs have a far shorter abode there , so men are punished with continuance of their torments , meerly for the circumstance of time of their birth ; but this is not the thing I aim at , ) from these pains of Purgatory , there is no way to deliver a man but by indulgences ; and these indulgences must be bought off with money , and wealthy men may buy off those corporal pains , ( which the rascal herd must suffer without bail or main-prise ) and turn them into a fine of the purse . So I see it was not without reason , that Solomon said , Money answers all things . I have heard that your tax of the Apostolical Chancery ( put forth by the Authority of your Church , where there is a price put upon all indulgences , and upon all kinds of sins ) hath this expression , Diligently note , that these graces ( of Indulgences ) are not given to the Poor , because they are not , and therefore cannot be comforted a ; by which I see , that if St. Peter himself should rise from the dead , and come to his Successour , with his old tone , Silver and Gold have I none , if he were a thousand Peters , he must into Purgatory without mercy . I am told that another of your Authors , Augustinus de Ancona , an Author of great note with you , tells us , that Indulgences are for the relief of the Churches ( that , is the Popes , and their Prelates ) Indigencies , which b is not relieved by a willingness to give ( which is all that any poor man can pretend to ) but by the gift it self . ( It seems your Church is not of Gods minde ; for , if there be a willing mind , he accepteth it for the deed , 2 Cor. 8. 12. ) And a little after ( as I am told ) he saith , as to the remission of punishment which is procured by indulgences , in that case it is not inconvenient , that the rich is in a better condition than the poor , for there it is not said , come and buy without money c . I confess that were a dangerous speech , and would utterly undoe all the Church of Rome . It is sufficient that Isaiah once said it , and Christ again , come and drink freely . People should have been wise , and taken them at their word , for they are never like to hear it a third time . Is this true ? Pop. They do indeed say so ; and the practice of our Church manifests to all the world , that Indulgences are sold for money , and the condition of the rich , in that , is better than the poor . But what great matter is that , as to the Pardon of Sin , and eternal Life , or Death , both rich and poor are alike . This difference is only as to the pains of Purgatory . Prot. Is that nothing to you ? you speak against your own , and all mens sense : we see how highly men esteem to be freed from a painful , though short , disease here ; how much more to be freed from such pains as you all confess to be unspeakably more sharp and grievous , than all the pains that ever were endured in this world : It is so considerable a thing , that I assure you , it is to me matter of wonder ( if Christ and the Apostles had been of your minde ) how it came to pass so unluckily , that the poor only should receive the Gospel ; whereas , if the men of that Age had not been all Fools , the rich would have been most forward to entertain it . VII . But to proceed . My seventh Consideration against your Religion is taken from its great hazard , and utter uncertainty . According to the doctrine of your Church , no man can be sure of his salvation ( without a revelation ) but he must go out of the world , not knowing whether he goes . Indeed there is nothing but hazard and uncertainty in your Religion ; I suppose you grant that all your Faith , and consequently your salvation depends upon the infallible Authority of your Church . Pop. That is most certain . Prot. Are you then infallibly certain , that your Church is infallible , or do you only probably believe it ? Pop. I am but a private Priest , and therefore cannot pretend to Infallibility ; but I am fully satisfied in it , that the Church is infallible in it self . Prot. Then I see you pretend to no more certainty than I have ; for I know ( and you grant ) that the Scripture is infallible in it self : and I know its infallibility as certainly as you know the infallibility of your Church . But , I pray you tell me , what is your opinion ? I know your are divided : but where do you place the infallibility , or where do you lay the foundation of your Faith ? Pop. To deal freely with you , I place it in the Pope ; who when he determines things out of his Chair , is infallible : for S. Peter who was supream Head of the Church , left the Pope his Successour . Prot. Then it seems your Faith doth wholly depend on these things , that Saint Peter was Bishop of Rome , and died there , and that he left the Pope his successour in his supream and infallible Authority . Pop. It doth so . Prot. How then are you infallibly assured of the truth of these things , which are all matters of Fact ? Pop. Because they are affirmed by so many of the Ancient Fathers and Writers . Prot. Were those Fathers or Writers infallible persons ? Pop. No. Prot. Then might they , and so may you , be mistaken in that point ; and so indeed you have nothing but a meer conjecture for the foundation of your Faith. But again , are you infallibly sure , that Saint Peters intention was to leave his Infallibility to the Pope ? For I do not read that S. Peter left it in his last wil. I tell you true it is strange to me , that St. Peter should write two Catholick Epistles , and ( as I observed before ) not leave one word concerning this matter . For my part I shall alwayes rather question the Popes Authority , than S. Peters fidelity or discretion , in omitting so Fundamental a Point when he put in many of far less concernment . But further , I demand , How are you assured that St. Peter intended to leave his power , and did actually leave it to his Successors ? Pop. By the unanimous consent of the Ancient Fathers . Prot. I wonder at your confidence , that you dare affirm a thing which our Authors * have so clearly proved to be false . But suppose it were so , that the Fathers had said it ; tell me , are the Fathers infallible ? at least are they so in their reports of matter of Fact ? Pop. No : we confess that it is only the Pope or Council that are infallible , not the Fathers ; & to be true to you , even the Pope himself is not infallible in his Reports of matters of Fact. Prot. Then you have nothing but a meer conjecture , or historical Report delivered by men , liable to mistake , for the great foundation of your Faith. Yet once more , have you any greater or better certainty for your Faith than the Pope himself . Pop. God forbid I should be so impud●nt or wicked to say so ; for my Faith depends upon his certainty . Prot. Very well , How I beseech you is the Pope assured ? what is it that makes him infallibly certain of his own Infallibility ? Is he assured of 〈◊〉 Revelat●on ? Pop. No ( as I have told you oft ) we pretend to no such things . Prot. How then ? Pop. By the Spirit of God which guides him into all truth . Prot. How is he assured that the Spirit of God guides him ? Pop. By the promises God hath made to him ; I need not repeat them , they are known already , Thou are Peter , &c. Simon , Simon , I have prayed that thy Faith fail not , &c. Prot. I have already shewn how absurdly these Texts are alledged . But I beseech you , how is the Pope infallibly assured that this is the true meaning of those Texts ? You confess it is not by inspiration . Pop. He knows that , by considering and comparing Scripture with Scripture , and by consulting the Fathers , and Prayer , Diligence , and Obedience , &c. Prot. All these things are very good , but any other man may use these means as well as the Pope , and hath as full promises from God , as any the Pope pretends to as Ioh. 7. 17. If any man will do his will , he shal know of the doctrine , whether it be of God ; and the Spirit of Truth is promised to all that ask it , Luke 11. 13. So if this be all you have to say , God deliver my soul from such a desperate Religion , wherein all the certainty of its Faith depends upon his infallibility , that is not certain of his own infallibility . But I need say no more of this ; It is to me an undeniable argument , that there is no certainty at all in this foundation ; because ( as you confess ) so many hundreds of your ablest Schollars do utterly reject it . But once more , in my opinion you run a dreadful hazard in the point of worshiping of Creaturers , Images , Saints , and especially the Bread in the Sacrament , in which you run other hazards besides those I spoke of . I am told , that your Doctrine is this , That it is necessary to the making of a Sacrament ( and so to the conversion of the Bread into Christs Body ) that the Priest intend to consecrate it . Is it so ? Pop. Yes doubtless , Bellarmine and all our Authors largely dispute for that . Prot. And can I be sure of another mans intentions ? It is sufficiently known , that divers of your Priests are prophane , and atheistical wretches , others envious and malicious , and some actually Jews . What assurance have I , that my Priest is not such an one , and that he doth not either out of a contempt or hatred of Religion or malice against my person , intend to deceive me , and not make a Sacrament of it ? Sure I am , they intend to deceive their people in the preaching of the Word , and why they may not do so in the Administration of the Sacrament , I know not . VIII . My eighth and last general consideration is this , that your Religion destroys even the principles of morality : which true Religion is so far from destroying , that it improves and perfects it . I confess , the bloodiness of your Religion hath ever made me both suspect and loath it . I find that Christ is a Prince of peace ; though he whipt some out of the Temple yet he never whipt any into his Church ; that he drew in his Disciples with the cords of a man , of conviction and perswasion ; and so did his Apostles after him : but your Religion ( like Draco's laws ) is written in blood . I perceive you answer our Arguments with Fire and Faggot : besides this , your Religion destroyes all civil Faith and Society ; your principle is known , and so is your practice of equivocation , and keeping no faith with Hereticks . Pop. I know where you are , you mean because of John Husse who after he had the faith of the Emperour given him for his safe Conduct , was contrary to that faith put to death in the Council of Constance . Prot. I do so , and what can you say for it ? Pop. This I say you must not charge upon our Church , the opinion of some few private Doctors , since others disown this , and have written against it . Prot. It seems it is a disputable point among you , whether you ought to be honest or not : but I have heard that Iohn Husse was condemned by the Council of Constance , and that when the Emperour scrupled to break his Faith , they declared he might do it , and ought to do it . Is it so ? Pop. It is true , what was done in that point ; was done by the Council . Prot. And you hold Councils ( especially where the Pope joyns with them as he did with that Council ) to be infallible ; and therefore this I may confidently charge upon you as a Principle of your Religion . I cannot but observe your fine devices : At other times when we alledge passages out of any of your learned Doctors which make against you , you tell us they are but private Doctors , and we must judge of you by your Councils . Now here we bring an approved Councils testimony , and you send us back to your private Doctors . Pop. These discourses of yours are only general ; I had rather you would come to the other thing you proposed , viz. to examine the particular points of our Religion , wherein I hope I shall give you such solid grounds and reasons , that when you shall understand them , you will embrace them . Prot. You shall find me ingenuous and docible , only remember I expect not words , but solid Arguments . I think our best course will be to pick out some principal points of your Religion , and examine them ; for the rest will either stand or fall as they do . Pop. I am perfectly of your mind , let us proceed accordingly . Prot. First then , if you please , we will begin with the sacrifice of the Mass , which you say is essential to the Christian Religion . Pop. It is so , and Bellarmine rightly saith , that where there is no sacrifice ( as you Protestants have none ) there is in truth no Religion . Prot. Therefore , I pray you , let me hear one or two ( for those are as good as an hundred ) of your chief grounds and reasons for that Sacrifice . Pop. I approve your motion , and I shall only insist upon two Arguments : First , the Sacrifice of the Mass was appointed by God , or Christ , in the words of Institution of the Sacrament , do this in remembrance of me . It is the great Argument of the Council of Trent * . Prot. I adore the fruitfulness of your Churches Invention . It seems they think these two words , do this , contain no less than two of your Sacraments , to wit , that of Orders , which makes Priests , and that of the Supper . Pop. They do so . Prot. That , no sober man will easily believe ; nor that Christs meaning in the words mentioned was this , Sacrifice me in remembrance of me . But let me hear how you prove the Institution of the Mass from these words . Pop. Christ bid his Disciples , do this , viz. that which he did : Christ did in that last Supper truly and properly offer up himself to his Father , his Body under the shape of Bread , his Blood under the shape of Wine ; and therefore they were truly and properly to offer up , or Sacrifice Christ in the Sacrament . The Argument is Bellarmin's * . Prot. How do you prove that Christ did in that last Supper truly and properly offer up his Body and Blood to his Father ? I read that Christ offered himself but once , Heb. 8. 27. and 9. 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. and 10. 14. and that was upon the Cross ; nor do I find that he offered any thing at all to God in that Supper , but only to his Apostles : And what , did Christ Sacrifice himself , and imbrue his hands in his own Blood ; and did he eat up his own Body ? did he take his whole Body into his Mouth ? these are Monsters of Opinions : But how prove you that Christ did then offer up himself to God ? Pop. Because Christ speaks in the present tense , This is my Body which is broken , Blood which is shed : he doth not say which shall be broken , and shed ; and therefore it must be broken and shed at that very time . Prot. What a vain Argumet is this ? you know nothing is more usual in Scripture than to put the Present Tense for the Future . Christ saith , I do lay down my life when he means , I will do it shortly , Iohn 10. 15. I do go to my Father , Iohn 16. 28. that is , I shall go shortly : Do that thou dost , that is , art about to do , John 13. 27. And in Mat. 26. Christ saith of his Blood , This is my Blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins ; and yet I suppose it was not shed at that time ; for you all profess the Sacrifice of the Mass is an unbloody Sacrifice : But again , tell me , I pray you , when Christ said , do this , did they not obey Christs command at that Supper ? Pop. I cannot deny that . Prot. Thence unavoidably follows , that this doing concerns the Communicants , as well as ( if not more than ) the Minister ; and so it is not meant of Sacrificing Christ , but receiving of him ; and really , if this Text do not , there is no other which doth , enjoyn Communicants to receive ; which he that can believe , hath got a good mastery over his Faith : Besides , what Christ here commands his Apostles , I finde St. Paul commands the Corinthians , and expounds doing this by eating and drinking , 1 Cor. 11. And moreover , if the words do this , were the words which did ordain both Priest and Sacrifice , who can think that two of the Evangelists , viz. both Matthew and Mark would have omitted them in mentioning the words of Institution ; and therefore this may pass . I shall only adde , that if our Divines should prove their Doctrines no better than by such wrested Scriptures and Arguments as this , we should hiss them out of the Pulpit : but I suppose you have some better Argument , therefore let me hear it . Pop. Consider then that irresistable Argument , Christ is a Priest , after the order of Melchisedeck . Now Melchisedeck did offer up a Sacrifice of Bread and Wine to God , Gen. 14. and thefore Christ was bound in agreement with this Type , to offer up such a Sacrifice , even his Body and blood , under the species of Bread and Wine . Prot. You tell me Melchisedeck offered up Bread and Wine to God ; I find no such matter : it is only a dream of your own . The History is , Gen. 14. where indeed I read of his offering Bread and Wine to Abraham and his Souldiers , to refresh them ( according to the custom of those times and places , ) Deut. 23. 3 , 4. and Iudges 8. 6. but not a word of any offering to God. It is the strangest relation of a Sacrifice that ever was ; here 's not one word of the Altar , or Offering , or Consecration , or the Destruction of the Sacrifice . You grant the thing sacrificed must be destroyed when it is sacrificed ; I pray you how is this bread destroyed ( save only by the Souldiers mouths , which you say came after the Sacrifice ? ) Pop. The bread possibly was destroyed by putting it in the furnace , and the Wine sprinkled upon the furnace , as Vasquez answers * . Prot. I see it was otherwise in those dayes than now it is . If I thought my Bread would be destroyed by putting it into the Oven , I assure you , I would never put it in . Pop. It must be a Sacrifice that is there related ; for it follows , And he was the Priest of the most High God. Prot. Not at all ; for his being Priest evidently relates to that which follows , and he blessed him , and received Tythes of all : Besides , if Melchisedeck did here offer a Sacrifice , was Jesus Christ obliged to offer the same kind of Sacrifice that he did ? for Christ was to offer up himself , Heb. 9. 10. ( which none of his Types did . ) Tell me first , Was Melchisedeck a Type of Christ in that action of eating Bread and Wine ? Pop. Yes doubtless , and this was the principal thing , in respect of which Christ is called a Priest after the order of Melchisedeck , or else I say nothing . Prot. Then tell me , how can any man in his wits , believe that St. Paul , who spends so much of his Epistle to the Hebrews ; in comparing Christ and Melchisedeck , and their Priesthood together ; and who picks up the very smallest circumstances , as that he was without father , &c. Should not speak one word of this , which ( if you say true ) was the principal thing ? Besides all this , If Melchisedeck was a type of Christ in that action , Did Christ offer Bread and Wine as Melchisedeck did ? Pop. No , but he offered his own Body and Blood under the appearance of Bread and Wine . Prot. Nay , now I see there is no possibility of pleasing you ; for I expected this all along , that Christ must needs have offered the same kind of Sacrifice that Melchisedeck did here : But now you forsake your own argument , and because Melchisedeck did offer Bread and Wine , Christ must not offer Bread and Wine , but something else under those appearances . Now I have heard your two principial Arguments , I hope you will hear mine also . Pop. Good reason I should do so . Prot. Then first , I argue thus , The Sacrifice of Christ was perfect , and did perfect all Believers , Heb. 10. 14. and therefore it need not , and ought not to be repeated , for the Apostle proves the imperfection of Levitical Sacrifices , because they were repeated , Heb. 10. 1 , 2. Where remission of sin is , there is no more offering for sin , Heb. 10. 18. Either then remission was not obtained by his once offering , or there must be no more offering ; either Christs offering upon the Cross was insufficient , or yours in the Mass is unnecessary . Pop. It is not properly repeated , for it is the same Sacrifice , for substance , which was offered upon the Cross , and is offered in the Mass * . Prot. How is it of the same kind , when you say , the one is bloody , the other unbloody ; the one offered by Christ , the other by a Priest ; but if it were of the same kind , so were the Levitical Sacrifices , and all had relation to Christ ( as you pretend all Masses have ) and yet the Apostle makes their Repetition an evidence of their Imperfection , Heb. 9. 10. And moreover , the Apostle denies not only the repetition of other Sacrifices , but also of the same Sacrifice , and tells us as plainly ( as man can speak ) that Christ was to offer up himself but once , Heb. 9. 25 , &c. whereas you wil needs over-rule the Apostle , and force Christ to offer up himself thousands of times ▪ Pop. It is true , there is but one Sacrifice of Redemption , and Expiation for Sin , and that was the Sacrifice of the Cross ; but there are other Sacrifices of Application to apply that to us . Prot. I hope the Word , and Sacraments , and Spirit of Christ , are sufficient to apply Christs Sacrifice ; must we have one Sacrifice to apply another ? who ever heard of one plaister made to apply another ? or a ransome paid the second time to apply the former payment ? And you seem to me quite to forget your selves , to destroy the nature of your Sacrifice : for the business of a Sacrifice is oblation to God , not application to men . Besides , I have one Argument more which fully satisfies me ; if the Mass be a real and proper Sacrifice , then the thing sacrificed must be really and properly destroyed ? Pop. That I readily grant , as Bellarmin a also doth , and indeed so it was in all the Sacrifices that ever were offered to God. Prot. But surely Jesus Christ is not destroyed in the Mass : Is he ? And are your Priests the murderers of Christ ? Pop. He is not so destroyed , for we tell you , it is an unbloody Sacrifice ; yet he is in a manner destroy'd by the Priest's eating of him : for thereby Christ ceaseth to be where he was before , that is , in the species of Bread and Wine , and the Bread and Wine are destroyed . Prot. Call you this a destruction , for one to remove from one place to another , or to cease to be where he was before ? this is ridiculous ; and yet this b fantastical and mock-destruction is all which you can bring , instead of that real destruction , which you confess necessary to the very essence of a Sacrifice . And as for the Bread and Wine they were destroyed by Transubstantiation , not by the Oblation or Sacrifice which comes after it . And now having mentioned that , let us discourse concerning your Doctrine of Transubstantiation . And first , tell me what is the Doctrine of your Church ? Pop. That the Council of Trent will inform you , which declareth , that by Consecration the whole substance of the Bread and Wine is converted into the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ a Prot. How is it possible for the Bread to be converted into Christs Body , which was made already before the Bread ? That Christ could turn Water into Wine was possible , but that he should turn that Water into such Wine as was in being before that change , this is impossible : but let that go : My next question is , if a Christian did actually receive Christs Body and Blood , tell me , what profit hath he by it ? I cannot believe that God would work so many Miracles ( as you affirm he doth in this Sacrament ) to no purpose : Scripture and Reason tells me , and your Council of Trent confesseth b , that the Sacrament is a feast for my Soul , and not for my Body . Is it not so ? Now , what is my Soul the better for eating the very Body of Christ ? When the woman cryed out to our Saviour , c Blessed is the womb that thee ; Christ replies , Yea , rather , Blessed are they that hear Gods Words , and do it : nevertheless , if you can solidly prove it , I will receive it ; therefore bring forth your Principal Arguments for it . Pop. I will do so , and our Church proves this point , especially , from two places of Scripture , John 6. and the words of Institution . I begin with the sixth Chapter of John , where our Saviour oft tells us , that the Bread which he gives is his flesh , &c. Prot. I have heard , that divers of your learned Doctors confess this Chapter speaks not of the Sacrament : Is it so ? Pop. I will not dissemble with you . That was the opinion of Biel a , Cardinal Cusanus b , Cajetan , c , and Tapperus d , and divers others . Prot. Certainly , This Argument is not likely to convince a Protestant which could not satisfie your own ablest Schollars . But I will not press that farther . Tell me then , do you judge that Christ speaks here of a bodily eating and drinking of his very Flesh and Blood ? Pop. We do so . Prot. I confess some of the Antient ; were of your mind , I mean the Jews . But with submission , I am rather of Christs Opinion , who plainly destroys that gross and carnal sense , telling them , it is the Spirit that quickneth , the Flesh profits nothing , vers . 63. Again , doth not Christ press this as a necessary , and present duty , upon all the Jews that then heard him ? Pop. That must be granted . Prot. Then certainly Christ speaks not of the Sacrament which was not then instituted , and therefore they could not partake of it . I demand further , is this Sacrament of such efficacy , that all that receive it are saved ; and of such necessity , that all that do not take it are damned ? Pop. No , our Church utterly condemns both those Opinions . Port : But this eating of Christs Flesh is such , that Christ saith , all that eat it are saved , v. 24. and all that do not eat it are damned , v. 53. Therefore surely he speaks not of a Sacramental eating : besides the whole Laity are utterly undone , if your sense of this Chapter be true ; for I find that drinking of Christs Blood is no less necessary to life eternal , than eating of his Flesh ; and therefore woe to them to whom you do not allow to drink of the Cup in the Sacrament . I am told this objection is so considerable , that it forced divers of your Doctors ( sore against their will ) to forsake this Argument ; and therefore this will not do your work : but I presume you have better Arguments . Pop. We have so . I shall urge but one , which is of its self sufficient , from the plain words of Institution , This is my Body . Methinks the very hearing of them read , should convince you , if you would take the words in their plain and proper sense , and not devise I know not what Figures and Tropes . Prot. If it were true that Christ did turn the Bread into his Body by saying these words , This is my Body , yet how doth it follow , that the Priest by reciting these words , worketh the same effect , any more than a Priest , every time he reads those words , Let there be light , doth make light ; because God did make it by those words : or than he raiseth a dead man , every time he reads those words of Christ , Lazarus , come forth . Moreover , I have heard that divers of your most learned Doctors confess , that this place doth not , nor indeed , any other place of Scripture , prove Transubstantiation . I have heard three Cardinals named , viz. Cajetan a and our Bishop of Rochester b and Cameracensis c , and divers famous Schoolmen , as Scotus and Biel , of whom this is known , and Durandus d , and Ocham e , and Melchior Canus f , and Vasquez g , and the great Cardinal Perron professeth , that he believes Transubstantiation , not by vertue of any necessary consequence , or reason , alledged by their Doctors ; but by the words of Christ , as they are expounded by Tradition h : and Bellarmin himself confesseth , This opinion is not improbable i . Methinks so many learned mens forsaking this Argument ( who doubtless would have been right glad if it had been solid , and imployed all their wits to search out the strength of it ) is to me a convincing evidence of its weakness and vanity , as also of the badness of your Cause , that can find no better Argument ; yet I am willing to hear what you can say . Pop. This then I say , that these words , This is my Body , are to be taken in their proper , and not in a figurative sense : for surely Christ would speak plainly to the understanding of his Disciples , especially when he was so near his Death , and making his last Will and Testament , and instituting the Sacrament ; in such cases men use to speek plainly . Prot. I readily grant that Christ did speak plainly and intelligibly : But tell me , is not that plain enough , when we take the words as they are commonly used in Scripture ? Pop. I must needs grant that ; but this is not the Present case . Prot. But it is ; for we can give you scores of instances , as you very well know where the word Is , is so taken : nor is any thing more frequent in Scripture , the seven kine , and so the seven ears of corn , are seven years , Gen. 4. 12 , 18. the Stars are the Angels of the Churches , Rev. 1. 20. the seven heads are seven Mountains , Rev. 17. 9. So Christ saith , I AM the way , the door , &c. So Zach. 5. 7 , 8. This woman is wickedness ; and a thousand such expressions . How do you understand these places ? Pop. The sense is plain , they signifie those things ; the Stars signifie the Angels , and so for the rest . Prot. Then certainly we have the advantage of you in this point , for we take is for signifies , ( as you confess it is commonly taken ) nor have the Jews ( as I have been assured by learned men ) any proper word for signifie ( as the Greeks and Lutines have ) but generally express it in this manner : But you must take it ( if the Particle this denote the Bread , as I shall plainly prove it doth ) for is converted into ; a sense which you cannot give one example of in all Scripture . I see it was not without reason that you took the interpretation of Scripture into the Churches hands ▪ for if you had left it in Gods hands , and left one Scripture to do that friendly office to expound another , you had certainly lost an Article of your Faith : And whereas you say that Christ would speak so as the Disciples might understand him , that sufficiently shews , that yours is not the true sense ; for they could never have understood it , and would doubtless have been as much puzled then , as all the World now is , to apprehend that the body of Christ was contained under the species of Bread and Wine , invisibly and undiscoverably , after the manner of a Spirit , to conceive of a body without bigness , long without length , broad without breadth , broken whilest it remains whole ( all which you profess to believe . ) This is to turn Christs plain speech into a bundle of Riddles ; and to call this the plain sense of the words which is ( as you see ) a heap of Figures , is a greater figure than all the rest ; but they did well enough understand the words in our sense , because they were well read in Scripture , wherein , as you grant , that sense of the words is usual . Pop. If we grant it is used so in other cases , yet not in Sacramental Texts , for there Christ would speak properly . Prot. Yes , It is usual even in the Sacraments ; Is not Circumcision called the Covenant ? This is my Covenant , Gen. 17. 10. though proprerly it was not the Covenant , but the Seal of it , Rom. 4. 11. Is not the Lamb called the Lords Passeover ? Exod. 12. though all men knew it was not the Lamb , nor the ceremony of eating it , which was or could be properly the Lords passing over the houses of the Israelites ; thus 1 Cor. 10. The Rock ( that followed the Israelites ) is Christ , though it was so only Figuratively and Sacramentally . Moreover , I am told , that divers of your own brethren acknowledge figures here . Tapperus saith , It is not inconvenient to admit of Tropes here , provided they be such as do not exclude the true presence of Christs body a . And that the Bishop of Eureux owns three Figures in the words of this Sacrament b ; and that Suarez c , Bellarmine d , and divers others confess as much . Pop. It is true , they do say so . Prot. Besides , you cannot think strange , if there be Figures in the first part , This is my Body , since it is most apparent there are Figures in the last part , This is the New Testament in my bloud . Here are not one , but divers Figures in it . The Cup you grant is taken for the liquor in it , there is one figure : The Wine in the Cup is taken for the Bloud , which was not in the Cup ; there is a strange figure indeed ( Logicians call it Non-sense . ) This Cup , or Wine , or Bloud ( if you please ) is the New Testament or Covenant ; whereas it was only the Seal of the New Testament , as is most manifest , because it is called , The Bloud of the New Testament , and the New Testament in my Bloud . Besides other strange figures , which I shall have occasion to speak to by and by . Here is figure upon figure , and yet you have the impudence to reproach us for putting in but one figure , which you confess to be very frequent . Wonder O Heavens , and judge O Earth , whether these men do not strain at Gnats , and swallow Camels ! And nothing doth more confirm the truth in this point , than to consider into what absurdities this Doctrine hath forced you , even to say , that the Bloud of Christ is properly the Covenant or Testament * : And that there are two sorts of Christs Bloud , the one in the Cup , the other shed on the Cross a : And that the Bloud of Christ is shed in the Sacrament , and yet never stirreth out of the veins : Did ever God or man speak of such bloud-shed ? therefore for shame never charge us with understanding this Text figuratively . But again , let me ask you , Will you affirm that these words , This is my body , are to be taken properly ? Doth your Church understand them so ? Pop. Yes surely , or else we do ill to reproach you for taking them improperly . Prot. The words are not true in a proper sense , nor indeed do you understand them so . Pop. Make that good , and I must give up this cause for ever . Prot. First , for the word this , it is most evident that it is meant of Bread : It is impossible for words to express any thing more plainly , than that by this , is meant the Bread. It is said expresly , that Christ took Bread and brake it , and gave it , and said , Take eat , THIS is my Body . Where this necessarily relates to that which Christ , took , and brake , and gave . After Christ came the Apostles , and particularly Saint Paul , and he expounds the mind of Christ ( and I hope you do not think he was so bad an Expositor , that his Comment was harder than the Text ) and he tells us thrice in a breath that it is Bread , 1 Cor. 11. 26. As oft as you eat this Bread , and whosoever shall eat this Bread , and so let him eat of that Bread. And again , 1 Cor. 10. 16. The Bread which we break , is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ ? And the participation of the Sacrament is called , breaking of Bread , Acts 2. 46. & 20. 7. which your Authors undertand of the Sacrament : and besides this , whatever it is , is broken , as it follows ; but you dare not say , Christs Body is broken . Now then , since it is most evident , that this is meant of the Bread , I hope , you will not say , this is properly Christs Body . Pop. No : We are not so absurd to say , this Bread is Christs body , for that is false and against common sense as Bellarmine well saith a . Prot. What then do you mean by the word this ? Pop. By This , I understand neither the Bread nor Christs Body , but in general this substance which is contained under this species b . Prot. What do you mean by that ? I pray you tell me , Do you believe that there are any more substances under those species , besides the Bread first , and afterward the Body of Christ ? Do not you profess , that as soon as ever it ceaseth to be Bread , it becomes the Body of Christ ? Pop. We do so . Prot. Then surely if it be a substance , according to you , it must be either Bread , or the Body of Christ ; but you allow it to be neither , and therefore it is no substance at all . In the next place , for the word is , I have shewed , you do not understand that properly neither : but for the word Body also , do you understand that properly ? Pop. Yes without doubt . Prot. I am told that your Church professeth to believe that Christs body is there after the manner of a spirit , taking up no room ; that head , hands , feet , are altogether in the least crumb of the Host. Is this true ? Pop. Yes , we all agree in that . Prot. Then sure I am , the word Body is most improperly taken : A learned man well observes , that you plead for the propriety of words , and destroy the propriety of things ; * How can you say that it is properly a body , which wants the essential property of a body ; which is , to have quantity and take up room : Take away this , and the body may be properly a spirit ; for it is that only which differenceth it from a spirit : So now I see you neither do , nor can understand these words properly ; and upon the whole matter that this Doctrine is false , and your Proofs most weak and frivolous , you shall see that I have better arguments against your Doctrine than you have for it . Pop. I pray you let me hear them , but be brief in them . Prot. I have only three Arguments , your Doctrine is against Sense , against Reason , and against Scripture . Pop. Let me see how you will make these things good ? Prot. For the first I ask you , if I am as sure that your Doctrine of Transubstantiation is false , as you are sure that the Christian Religion is true ; will you desire more evidence ? Pop. If I should , I were an unreasonable person . Prot. And have you any greater assurance now of the truth of the Christian Religion , than you could have had , if you had lived in Christs dayes ? Pop. That were impudence to affirm : but what do you mean ? Prot. If you had lived then , what greater evidence could you have had of it , than what your senses afforded ; for since the great Argument for Christianity ( as all agree ) was the words that Christ spake and the works that Christ did ; how could you be sure that he did so speak , or so work , if you may not credit the reports of your eyes and ears ? This was S. Lukes great evidence of the truth of what he writes , that it was delivered to him by eye-witnesses , S. Luke 1. 1 , 2. and St. Johns what we have seen with our eyes , and our hands have handled of the Word of life : 1 John 1. And St. Paul for Christs Resurrection , that he was seen of Cephas , then of the twelve , then of the 500 , 1 Cor. 15. 5 , 6. Even Thomas his Infidelity yielded to this argument , that if he did thrust his hand into Christs side he would believe , John 20. 25. Christ judged this a convincing argument , when the Apostles thought he had been a Spirit , handle me and see , for a Spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me have , Luk. 24. 39. Are these things true ? Pop. I cannot deny it , they are not yours , but Scripture assertions . Prot. And do not all my senses tell me that this is Bread ? Pop. I must grant that , but your sense is deceived . Prot. Then your senses also might have been deceived about the words and works of Christ , and so the greatest evidence of Christian Religion is lost : but for my part it makes me abhor your Religion ; that so you may but seem to defend your own opinions , you care not if you shake the pillars of Christianity : My second Argument is , that your Doctrine of Transubstantiation is against reason . Tell me I pray you , do you think any of the Articles of Christian Religion are contrary to reason ? Pop. No , they may be above reason , but God forbid I should be so injurious to Christianity to say any of them are against reason . Prot. But your doctrine is as much against reason as sense , for it makes you believe things absolutely impossible , and gross contradictions . Pop. You may imagine many things impossible that really are not so : but if you can prove any real impossibilities which this doctrine forceth us to believe I must yield , for we joyn with you in condemning the Lutheran opinion that Christs Body is every where , because it is an impossibility , and we therefore expound those words , I am the Vine , I am a door , &c. figuratively , because it is impossible for him who is a man , to be a vine , or a door . a Prot. And it is no less impossible for the Bread to be Christs Body : Why might not the Vine , ( as well as the Wine ) be by Transubstantiation , converted into Christs Substance ? I think the Mother is as good as the Daughter , and especially since Christ saith , I am the true Vine , you might as well have devised another transubstantiation to make Christs words good , I know what work you would have made of it , if he had said , This is my TRVE Body , or my TRVE Blood. But to give that over , I will shew you , that there is such an heap of contradictions , as never met together , in the most absurd opinion that ever was in the world : I profess ( when I set my wit at work ) I cannot devise greater absurdities than you believe . Tell me , do you hold that the whole Body of Christ is present in every crumb of the Bread , and in every drop of the Wine ? Pop. Yes doubtless , Christ is there entire , and undivided . Prot. I suppose you believe that Christs Body is in Heaven , in such a proportion , or bigness , as he had upon Earth . Pop. No doubt of that . Prot. Then the same Body of Christ is bigger than it self , and longer than its self , and which is yet worse , Christ is divided from himself . I know not what can be more impossible , than to say , that all Christ is at Rome , and all at London , and all in Heaven , and yet not in the places between . Pop : All this is by Gods Almighty Power . Prot. Then I suppose , by the same Almighty Power , it is possible for any other man to be in so many places ; for it matters not that Christ be invisibly in so many places , and another should be there visibly , or that Christ is there in so little a bulk , and another must be in a greater . Pop. I must needs grant that , and I affirm it is not absolutely impossible for any other man to be at several places at once by Gods Power . Prot. Then mark what monsters follow from this : suppose now Iohn to be by divine Power at the same time at Rome , at Paris , and at London ; where ever Iohn is alive , I suppose , he hath a power to move himself . Pop. That must needs be , else he were not a living Creature . Prot. Then Iohn at Rome may walk towards London , and Iohn at London may walk toward Rome , and so they may meet ( shall I say , one the other ? ) and you may be sure it will be a merry meeting : It were worth enquiry , how long they will be e're they come together . Then again , at Rome all the parts of Iohn may be excessively hot , and at London excessively cold , and at Paris neither hot nor cold : This is beyond all the Romances that ever were devised . Besides , Iohn may be sorely wounded at Rome , and yet at London he may sleep in a whole skin ; Iohn may be feasting at Rome , and fasting at London in the same moment . I might be infinite in reckoning the horrid absurdities of this Doctrine ; he that can believe these things , will stick at nothing . Pop. You talk at this rate , because you measure God by your selves , whereas he can do more than you or I can think . Prot. There are some things which it is no dishonour to God , to say he cannot do them , because they are either sinful ( so God cannot lie ) or absolutely impossible ; God himself cannot make a man to be alive and dead at the same time : God cannot make the whole to be less than a part of it : he cannot make three to be more than threescore : he cannot make a Son to beget his Father : he cannot make the same man to be born at two several times ( as your Authors confess ) ; and therefore in like manner he cannot make the same body to be in two several places ; for this is not one jot less impossible than the other . Pop. These indeed are great difficulties to humane reason , but reason is not to be believed against Scripture . Prot. True , but this is your hard hap ; this Doctrine of yours is against Scripture as well as Reason , and indeed against many Articles of Religion . And first , it is against the Scripture , in as much as it is highly dishonourable to Christ , whose honour is the great design of the Scripture . What a foul dishonour is it to him to subject him to the will of every Mass Priest , who , when he pleaseth , can command him down into the Bread ? What a dishonour is it , that the very Body of Christ may be eaten by Rats or Worms , and may be cast up by Vomit , and the like , as your Aquinas affirms a . And that your Church in her Missals hath put this amongst other directions , that if worms or Rats have eaten Christ Body , they must be burned ; and if any man vomit it up , it must be eaten again , or burned , or made a Relick ; b and yet this is no more than your Doctrine will force you to own : for if you will believe Christs words , in one place as well as in another , he assureth us , that whatsoever ( without exception ) entreth into the mouth , goeth into the belly , and is cast forth into the draught , Matth. 15. 17. Pop. This is no more dishonourable to Christ than that the Fleas might such his Blood when he was upon earth . Prot. You mistake wofully ; for though in the dayes of his flesh , it was no dishonor to him ( and it was necessary for us ) that he suffered so many indignities , and died , and was crucified , yet now , that he is risen from the dead , he dies no more , Rom. 6. and it is a dishonour to him to be crucified again , and to be brought back to those reproaches which he long since left ; and all this to no purpose , and without any profit to us , ( as I shewed . ) Again , the Scripture approveth and useth this argument , that a body cannot be in two places at once : it is the Angels argument , He is not here , for he is risen , Mat. 28. 6. sufficiently implying , that he could not be here and there too : or must we say , that the Angels argument is weak or deceitful , that yours may be strong and true ? Pop. He meant he was not there visibly . Prot. It seems , if a man being sought after should hide himself with you in some corner or hole in your room , and the pursuers should ask for him , you could answer with good Conscience , He is not here , because he is invisible . Our Blessed Saviour every where makes these two opposite , his being in the world , and going to heaven , Joh. 13. 1. The hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father : It seems you could have taught him the art of going thither , and keeping here too . I promise you , I durst not venture to buy an Estate of any of you , for it seems you could tell how to sell it to me , and keep it to your selves . You may remember , once you and I made our selves merry with a passage that one used in a speech ; that since he could not give content , neither by going nor staying , hereafter he would neither go nor stay . It seems you have as good a faculty as he had ; for you know how a man may both go from a place , and stay in it , at the same time . I know not what can be more plain if you did not shut your eyes : Christ saith expresly , me you have not alwayes , that is , here , Mat. 26. 11. Besides , your doctrine destroyes the truth of Christs Humane Nature . I read of Christ , that he was in all points like unto us , sin only excepted ; his Body was like ours , and therefore it is impossible it should be in a thousand several places at once ( as you pretend it is ; ) this turns Christs Body into a Spirit : nay , indeed you make his body more spiritual than a Spirit ; for a Spirit cannot be in several places divided from it self . The soul of man , if it be entire both in the whole and in every part of the body , yet it is not divided from it self , nor from its body , nor can it be in two several bodies at the same time , as all confess ; and much less can it be in ten thousand bodies at once ( as by your Argument undoubtedly it may ) . When ever an Angel comes to earth , he leaves heaven : and so this every way destroyes the truth of Christs Humane body . Pop. Much of what you say was true of Christs Body in the dayes of his infirmity ; but when he was risen from the dead , then he received a Spiritual Body , as it is said , ours shall be at the resurrection , 1 Cor. 15. Prot. To this I answer , First , that you ascribe these monstrous properties to Christs Body before its Resurrection ; for you say , The Flesh and Bloud of Christ were really in the Sacrament , which the Disciples received while Christ lived . Secondly , Christs Resurrection , though it heightned the perfections , yet it did not alter the Nature and Properties of his Body , nor give it the being of a Spirit ; for after he was risen , he proves that he was no Spirit , by this Argument , Handle me and see , for a Spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me have , Luke 24. 39. By this it appears , that your Doctrine destroys the Truth of Christs Humanity , at least it destroys the main evidence of it ( against those who affirmed , that Christ had only a phantastical Body ) namely , that he was seen , and felt , and heard ; for you say , sense is not to be believed . Again , you destroy the truth of Christs ascension into Heaven . For Christ is not ascended if he hath not left the world ; for these two are joyned together , Ioh. 16. 28. I leave the world , and go to the Father : but if you say true , he hath not left the world , but is here in every Sacrament ; nothing can be more plain , than that Christ did visibly and locally leave this world when he went up into heaven , Acts 1. 9 , 10. that being once there , the heavens must receive ( or contain ) him , until the time of the restitution of all things , Acts 3. 21. and that at the last day he shall come visibly and locally from heaven , 2 Thess. 1. 7. but that he should come down a thousand times in a day , at the command of every Mass-Priest , is such a dream , as the Scripture speaks not one syllable of , nor can any rational man believe it : Moreover , your Doctrine destroys the very Essence of a Sacrament , which consists of two parts , an outward element or sign , and the inward grace signified by it ; and this I am told your Doctors acknowledge a I shall forbear mentioning further particulars , these are more than enough to shew the falseness of this Doctrine of Transubstantiation . In the next place , pray let me hear what you have to say for your great Article of praying to Saints . But , first , I am told divers of your own Authors confess , it is not necessary to pray to Saints , but only convenient : Is it so ? Pop. It is true ; and , I must confess , the Council of Trent do only say , it is good and profitable . b Prot. Then sure , I will never run the hazard of committing Idolatry for an unnecessary work . But I am further told , that your great Scholar and Wit , Perron confesseth , That he found no footsteps of this praying to Saints , either in Scripture , or in the Fathers , before the four first Councils , ( which was some hundreds of years after Christ. c He confessed likewise to Isaac Casaubone , ( as he told our Bishop Andrews ) that he himself never prayed to Saints , but only as he went in Procession that is for form sake . Andr. in Opusc. Posthuma , and that Salm●ron , and Cotton , a and Eccius say as much in effect , viz. That there is no command for this in either Testament . Is it so ? Pop. It is true ; and Bellarmine confesseth , That the Saints began to be worshipt , not so much by any Law , as by Custome b . Prot. Methinks these two Considerations should startle you , that it is both unnecessary and uncommanded . I perceive I am not like to hear Scripture Arguments in this point . Pop. Some of our Authors do urge some Scriptures , but you tie me up to use but few , and those the best Arguments ; and therefore I will rather urge other Considerations . 1. Humility and Discretion adviseth us to this duty , for I suppose , if you have any request to the King , you do not sawcily rush into his presence , but make use of some of his Courtiers . Prot. But tell me , I pray you , If a King not only allows , but commands all his Subjects to call upon him in the day of trouble , to come to him freely , and upon all occasions , to pour out their complaints to him , not doubting but he will receive and answer them , and this King were always at perfect leisure to hear their requests , and the oftner they come to him , the welcomer they are ; and he appoints his own Son the Master of the Requests , from time to time , to receive all the Petitions of his Subjects ; and both the King and the Prince are ten thousand times more compassionate than the Courtiers ; would you not in this case account him a fool ( and somewhat else too ) that should spend his time in petitioning this and the other inferiour Courtier to gain access to the King ? Pop. I cannot deny that . Prot. Then your Church hath need to make use of that counsel , James 1. 5 : If any man want wisdom , let him ask it of God ; they rather choose to ask it of Saints , and that is the reason they go without it . Most plain it is , this is the very case , and such a King God in all points is , and infinitely better than all this , and such a Master of Requests Christ is : but for the humility you talk of , I think therein you do prudently ; for I remember the worship of Angels came in under a shew of humility , Col. 2. 18. and the door being once opened , it was discreetly done to bring in the worship of Saints there too : let me hear what else you can say ? Pop. We use to pray to living Saints , why not as well to departed and glorified Saints ; S. Paul writes to the Thessalonians , Pray for us ; Col. 4. 3. Prot. Surely Scripture makes a sufficient difference ; You meet with very many Commands and Examples of Prayers or Addresses to the living , not one to the dead . Besides , you know the living hear your Prayers , you know nothing that the dead do so : Besides , I trow , you do not pray to the living in such manner as you do to the dead ; you do not religiously worship the living ( and about that all our question is , ) Did St. Paul invocate the Colossians , because he desired their Prayers ? Can you say any thing more ? Pop. The Saints in Glory pray for us , and therefore we may pray unto them . Prot. Will you affirm , that I may and ought to worship , and pray unto all those that pray for me ? Pop. No : Then our Churches practice would condemn me ; for we grant , that the Fathers in their Limbus did , and so those in Purgatory do , pray for us , and so do all the Living Saints upon Earth , yet we do not allow Prayers unto them . Prot. Then your argument is lost , from their Intercession to your Invocation . Pop. Let me hear , if you have any better Arguments against this practice . Prot. You shall . 1. Since all grant that Prayer is a part of Gods Worship , then your praying to Saints is directly contrary to Gods command , Deut. 6. 13. Mat. 4. 10. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God , and him only shalt thou serve . Pop. We do not worship the Saints , as God , with the highest kinde of Worship , which is proper to God , but only with an inferiour kind of Religious Worship , and therefore do not transgress this command . Prot. The Devil himself did not require the highest worship , as I shewed before ; yet Christ thought that inferiour worship a breach of that law . Nor did those Angel-worshippers , mentioned , Col. 2. worship the Angels , as God , with the highest worship , for they were either Jews , or Judaizing Christians , ( both of which never pretend to equalize the Angels with God , but judged them far inferiour to God , and worshipped them accordingly ) yet nevertheless are they condemned by S. Paul for giving divine Honour to the Creature . Next , this praying to Saints is an high dishonour to Jesus Christ. God hath made him the only Mediatour , 1 Tim. 2. 5. he hath invited all persons to come freely and boldly to him , hath promised those that come to him , he will in no wise cast out , Ioh. 6. 37. why do not you then go immediately to Christ ? This is a manifest questioning either of his power , or faithfulness , or goodness . Pop. It is one of the slanders of your Ministers , that we dishonour Christ ; we only pray to Saints to pray to Christ. Prot. All your Books of Devot on confute that pretence ; for you profess in your Mass-book a they help you by their Merits , as well as by their Prayers . Bellarmine affirmeth that the Saints in some sort are our Redeemers : b Is this no more than only to pray for you ? Is it no more than this , when you pray thus to the Virgin Mary ; Do thou protect us , drive away evil from us , and require good things for us : and in right of a Mother , command thy Son ? Is it no more than this , when you say the Lord was with her , ( i. e. the Virgin ▪ Mary ) and she with the Lord in the same work of redemption : and when Esa. 63. is objected , I trod the Wine press alone , and there was no man with me ; they answer cunningly , true Lord , there was no MAN with thee , but there was a WOMAN with thee ; c Is it no dishonour to Christ that your famous Biel saith , that God hath given the Virgin Mary half of his Kingdom ; and that whereas he hath justice and mercy , he kept justice to himself , and granted mercy to the Virgin ? d In my opinion they shall do well to take in Christ for a share in the mercy . Is it no dishonour to Christ to say , that Prayers which are made to , and delivered by the Saints , are better than those by Christ , as Salmeron saith ? e Is it no dishonour to Christ , that Barradius the Jesuite asketh of Christ , why he took not his Mother up with him when he ascended up to Heaven ? and frames this answer ; f Peradventure , Lord , it was lest thy heavenly Courtiers should be in doubt , whether to go out to meet thee , their Lord , or her , their Lady Is it no dishonour to Christ , that Carolus Scribanius ( otherwise Clarus Bonarscius ) professeth , he cannot tell which to prefer , the Mothers Milk , or the Sons bloud g . I believe neither Christ nor his Mother will give these men thanks for this another day ; and all these passages are not in obscure Authors , that privily steal abroad into the World ; but in eminent Persons , and Books Licensed by the Approbation , and according to the Orders of your Church : and besides , your Church owns them , in that she doth not blot them out , nor put them into her expurgatory Indices . Moreover , I must pray to none , but those in whom I must trust , Rom. 10. 13 , 14. How shall they call on him , in whom they have not believ●d ? And trust is Gods Prerogative incommunicable to any creature , Ier. 17. 5. Cursed is he that trusteth in man. Again , I must pray to none , but to whom I may pray in faith , and without doubting ; and ( upon good grounds believing that I shall receive ) Mat. 21. 22. Iames 1. 5 , 6. But I am not sure that the Saints do hear my prayers , or can and will grant them . Pop. The Saints in glory do know what we pray to them . Prot. How doth that appear ? Pop. There are several wayes whereby they know these things , but I adhere to what Bellarmine saith , that they knew this by revelation from God. Prot. You should not only say this , but prove it . One of your infallible Popes Gregory denies this , no Scripture informs you thus much ; nay , that sufficiently implies , that the Saints do not particularly know , nor mind the concerns of this world . God tells Iosiah , 2 Chr. 34. 28. Thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace , neither shall thine eyes see the evil I will bring upon this place , Eccl. 9. 5. the dead know not any thing of the particular occurrences of this life , see Iob 14. 21. I am sure these are ten times better arguments than what you bring for the contrary . And in a word , its Gods incommunicable Prerogative to know the Heart and secret Prayers , 2 Chron. 6. 30. Mat. 6. 6. So upon the whole matter , I conclude ; and now by the vanity of your Arguments and Answers , do fully discern the falseness of this opinion , and the wickedness of the practice of calling upon Saints : let me hear whether you have any better evidences for the worship of Images ; I hope you have ; and I am sure you need very clear and strong arguments for that practice , or else you are guilty of that damnable sin of Idolatry . Pop. We have very good arguments for that : I will use only two , and those our strongest arguments , as you desire . First , we have the example and command of God for it : he caused the Images of the Cherubims to be made and put upon the Ark which was worshipped : Psal. 98. If the Ark was to be worshipped because it represented Gods footstool , much more may an Image be worshipped ; as our Mr. Bishop rightly argued * . Prot. I suppose if this be a good Argument to us now , it was so to the Iews formerly ; for length of time doth not turn false arguments into true ones ; tell me therefore if you had lived when the Law , Exod. 20. was newly given , and one had perswaded you to worship Images by your own argument , what would you have answered ? Pop. I would have said , it doth not follow that because the Ark was to be worshipped ( which God commanded them to worship ) therefore Images were to be worshipped ( which God forbad them to worship . ) Prot. Good Sir , bestow this answer ( as a token from me ) upon any of your Brethren that shall argue so absurdly : besides , it seems very unlikely to me , that the Cherubims were ordained to be worshiped by the people , because they were never seen by the people . You put the Images which you worship in the most visible and conspicuous places . Pop. Yet no man could worship the Ark but he must worship the Cherubims , for they were over the Ark. Prot. In that case the Cherubims were not at all worshipped , unless you will say , that he that worships one of your wooden Images , worships also the Spider , ( which peradventure is paying its devotion there , and got into the Saints mouth . ) Besides , it doth not appear that the Ark it self was worshipped , for that also was not so much as seen by the people , therefore not like to be worshipped . All that we read is , that the Israelites did and ought to worship God toward the Ark ; and so they are said to worship God toward the whole Temple , and toward Ierusalem , and towards the Holy Mountain , and towards Heaven . Yet I presume you will not say all these places were to be worshiped , and if God was to be worshiped towards these places ; because he tells us expresly , his special presence was there . What is this to Images ? which God banisheth from his House and presence : and to conclude this , I pray you tell me , Is it lawful to worship every place where God is in a special manner present ? Pop. I conceive it is . Prot. Then it is lawful to worship every religious man in the World ; It is true , your great Vasquez professeth , that a man may worship a Stone , or a Straw , or any creature where God is , for God is there according to this essence . a By which Argument it seems Christ might have worshipped the Devil ; for the essence of God being every-where , must needs be in him . But what , I pray you , is your other Argument ? Pop. The honour of God requires the worship of his Images , for that redounds to God ; as if I honour a Prince , I will honour his Picture ; and we shew our reverence to the King in being uncovered in his Presence Chamber , though the King be not there . Prot. Tell me , I pray you , If a King forbid any Pictures of himself to be made , or set up ; if any over-officious Subject should , notwithstanding this , set up the Kings Picture , pretending to do it in respect to the King ; would the King esteem himself honoured or dishonoured by it ? Pop. In that case certainly the King is dishonoured , when his commands are broken , and his Authority despised . Prot. You say right . And so God will give you little thanks for breaking his Commands , upon pretence of his Service . If a King require such reverence to be given to his Presence-Chamber , it is fit that he should be obeyed ( seeing it is only a civil , and not a religious respect : ) and if God forbid any such reverence , any Religious worship should be given to any graven Images , good reason his prohibition too should be obeyed . You talk of honouring God , but for the way or means of honouring God , whether it be most reasonable to take an estimate from the Rules and Practices of all former Idolaters ( who have all justified their Idolatry from this pretence of honouring God ) or from the Commands of Gods , Word , and the practices of the godly Jews before Christ , and godly Christians , and Fathers , for some hundreds of years after Christ ( who are all known to detest all manner of Worship of Images ) a I leave to any indifferent person to judge : besides , if you will needs testifie your respect to God , by honouring his Images , what a madness is it to confine this honour to dead Images of Wood or Stone , and to deny it to his Saints upon earth , who are his living , and far more noble and express Images . Pop. Since you scorn my Arguments , for the Worship of Images , let me hear your Arguments against it ? Prot. My first Argument is this , the holy Scripture condemns it as Idolatry . Pop. We have Images in our Churches only as remembrancers ( to put us in mind of worthy and excellent persons ) but not as objects of Worship . Prot. No friend , it is not that time of day : you cannot now deceive us with such foolish excuses , for your Councils of Nice and Trent do both command the Worshipping of Images , and all your Authors plead for this . Pop. Well , but this I am sure is true , we do not worship the Images , but only God by them , and in them ; we worship them only as representations of God or Christ , &c. and the honour passeth from them to God. Prot. That cannot acquit you , neither before God nor man. Micah and his Mother were guilty of Idolatry , yet the silver was dedicated to the Lord ( Jehovah ) to make a graven Image , Judg. 17. 3. also Iudg. 18. 5 , 6. And the Israelites are charged with Idolatry in the worshiping of the Golden Calf , Acts 7. 41. 1 Cor. 10. 7. And yet they could not be so brutish , as to think that Golden Calf , which they brought out of Egypt in their ear-rings , was that God which brought them out of Egypt with strong hand . Pop. But they said , These be thy gods O Israel , which brought thee up out of the Land of Egypt . Prot. You use also to call an Image by the name of him whom it represents ; you commonly say , this is the blessed Virgin , or S. Matthew , &c. when you mean , 't is only their Image , and so it cannot be strange to you , that they express themselves in the same manner . Besides Aaron himself proclaims the feast of the Calf in these words , Tomorrow is a feast to Iehovah . The Heathens also excused their Idolatry by this very pretence . So Celsus b and other said ( as the antient Fathers tell us ) We do not worship the Images of Gold or Brass , &c. as believing them to be gods ; but we worship the gods in them , and by them . Pop. They worshiped wicked Men ; but we worship only Holy Men , and the Friends of God , as such , and because they are such , and their Images , and therefore are not guilty of Idolatry . Prot. Then Saint Peter , Acts 10. and the Angel , Rev. 22. and Saint Paul , Acts 14. might have received that adoration ( as being the friends of God ) which they so utterly rejected . Moses was the friend of God , yet God hid away his body , lest the Israelites should worship him . And I have heard that the Fathers charged the Collyridians with Idolatry , for worshiping of the Virgin Mary ; c and the Arrians for worshipping Christ , whom they believed to be but a creature ( though all agreed they were the friends of God. ) I suppose if any man should attempt to give the honour , proper to the King , to his Brother , or Friend , this would not excuse them from Treason ; nor will it excuse any Adulteress that she lay with her Husbands dearest Friend or Relation . Again , it matters not much to this point , for what reason you worship Images : the only question is , whether you do worship Images ? for the very doing of that ( whatsoever pretences it may have ) is Idolatry . Besides , if you worshipped God alone , and not the Image , your excuse would have some colour ; but it is most evident , that you worship not only God , but the Image too . I am told that your own Azorius affirms , that it is the constant opinion of your Divines , that the Image is to be honored , or worshipped , with the same honour and worship which is given to him whose Image it is . a And that Cajetan b and Gregory de Valentia , c and Costerus d affirm as much . And that your Bellarmin expresly disputes for this , that Images are not only to be worshipped as they are exemplars , but also properly and by themselves , so as the worship may be terminated in them . e Are these things true ? Pop. I cannot deny but they are . Prot. Then I see the vanity of your pretences , and that you only seek to raise a mist before the eyes of ignorant people ; for in truth you worship the Image it self , though happily not for its self : as if a Heathen Emperor commanded his Subjects Religiously to Worship such a Vice-gerent of his ; no man , who did worship that Vice-gerent , could deny that he worshipped him , though he did it only for the Emperours sake . Tell me , I pray you , do you not hold , that there are two kinds of Religious Worship ; namely , absolute , ( which you give to God or the Saints ) and relative , ( which you give to their Images ) ? Pop. I must own it . Prot. Then it is horrible impudence to say , you do not give worship to the Images , since you give one of these two kinds unto them , and unto them only : besides , if all you say were true , this would not acquit you from Idolatry ; for your Church professeth and commandeth the Worship of the Images of Saints , as well as of God and Christ ; and since it is Idolatry to give Divine Honour to any creature ( as I before proved ) you are no less guilty in giving it to the Saints themselves , than to their Images , and so you are double-dy'd Idolaters . My second Argument is taken from the second Commandment , Thou shalt not make any graven Image . But first , I pray you , tell me true , hath your Church left out this second Commandment in divers of her Breviaries and Offices of Prayer , or do our Ministers slander them ? I hear ; that In the Hours of our Lady , Printed at Paris , An 1611. The Commandments of the first Table are set down in these words , and no other . 1. Commandment . I am the Lord thy God , thou shalt not have nor worship any other God but me . 2. Commandment . Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain . 3. Commandment . Remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day and Feasts . And that the Council of Ausburg , Ann. 1548. delivering the Commandments in Dutch for the People , leave out the mention of Images ; and , that their cheat might not be discovered , that the people might have their full number , they make use of the mistake of one of the Fathers , and divide the last Command into two , against Sense and Reason , and the practice of the whole ancient Church . Are these things so ? Pop. It is true , it is left out in some of our Books , but we leave it in , in all Bibles , and divers of our Catechisms . Prot. Very well , I see you had wit in your anger ; I commend your discretion , that you did not your work so grosly , that all the world should cry shame of you : But that you blotted it out in any , is an evidence of your guilt . but what say you to this Argument ? Pop. Then my first answer is , That this Command was peculiar to the Iews , who were most prone to Idolatry * . Prot. This is not true . It sufficiently appears that the Gentiles were under the obligation of this Law , from those punishments which God inflicted upon them for their transgression or breach of it by Idolatry , Rom. 1. But where there is no Law , there is no transgression . Besides , Christ tell , us , He came not to destroy the Law , ( the Moral Law ) but to fulfil it , Mat. 5. 17. Belike , you are not of his mind ; and dare you say the Jews , as soon they believed in Christ , were discharged from this command , and allowed to worship the Images which that command forbad ? Pop. I will not say so ; but I have a second Answer ; The thing prohibited here is not Images , ( which are representations of real things ) as you falsly render it , but Idols , which are the Images of false gods , which are not , and never were in the world . Prot. The Text its self is full against you ; for the Images there prohibited , are not said to be the Images of the false gods of the Heathens ( whereof many never had any being ) but the Images of any thing in heaven or earth , &c. Moreover , divers of the Heathen gods were men whom they deified . I hope their Pictures were Pictures of real things , yet these are Idols . Pop. Though they really were Men , yet their pictures were made to represent them as gods , and such they were not really , and therefore were Idols . Prot. The learned Heathens knew ( as well as you and I do ) that Iupiter , and Mars , and Mercury , and the rest , were meer Men , ( and they smiled at the ignorance of their Vulgar , that thought otherwise ) only they thought of them just as you do of the Saints , that the great God had put some of his honour upon them , and therefore they might worship them ; you cannot be so silly to think , the learned Heathens thought Augustus was a god really , when he was dead ; yet their worship of his Image was Idolatry . And they that worshipped the Image of Caligula , ( while he lived ) were not so sottish to take him for a god ( whom they knew to be a foolish and wicked man ) yet I hope you will not excuse them from Idolatry . But further , as the Jews did universally understand this to be a prohibition of all manner of Images ; so all the Prophets , and Christ , and the Apostles were so far from reproving them ( which they would have done , if it had been an Error ) that they every where strengthen them in this opinion , by declaiming against all worship of Images , without any distinction . And tell me , I pray you , if any Jew had at that time made ( for instance ) an Image of the Sun not looking on it as God , but as a glorious creature of God , and therefore fit to be religiously worshipped ( as you think of the Saints and Angels ) and had bowed down to it and worshipped it : Do you think he had not broken this Law ? Pop. I dare not deny but he had broken it . Prot. Yet this had been no Idol , but an Image , according to your sense of it . Besides , I find that all manner of Images are forbidden , Lev. 26. 1. howsoever , to me you seem to venture your salvation upon a nice point , for the Hebrew word is neither Image nor Idol , but Pesel , as a Divine told me ; and this , I understand is diversly translated ; some render it an Image , others an Idol . Now you ventrue your soul upon it , that the last is the only true Translation , which is a dreadful hazard ; because it is otherwise rendred , not only by Protestants , but by the most and best ancient interpreters * , even those whom your Vulgar Translation very oft follows in other places . These render it not an Idol , but a graven Image ; and the Seventy Interpreters ( I am assured ) po promiscuously render the word sometimes an Idol , sometimes a graven Image : Nay , more than this , that it may appear how desperately our cause is , I am informed your own Vulgar Translation ( from which you are obliged not to swerve ) doth frequently render it not Idol , but a graven Image ( Sculptile ) particularly in Exod 20. 4. Levit. 26. 1. and Deut. 4. 16 , 25. and 5. 8. Are these things so ? Pop. I cannot deny it , for the Authors themselves would confute me ; But one thing I have to say , you must understand one Scripture so as to agree with another : Now I find God himself allows and prescribes some Images , as those of the Cherubims ; either then he contradicts himself , or he doth not forbid all Images , but Idols only . Prot. Though I might say , God may make an exception to some of his Laws , when no man can ( as in the case of Abraham's offering up Isaac , and the Israelites , spoiling the Aegyptians of their Jewels ) yet I need no other answer but this ; I directly deny that here is any contradiction at all : For our question is not about the making of Images ( whether by Gods order or Mans ) but about the worshipping of them . And albeit there were such Images made , yet they were not made to be worshipped , as I before proved ; nor was there any danger the people should worship them , because they were not admitted to see them . But I pray you answer me this one question , I am told that divers of your own Authors confess , that the Jews indeed were ; though Christians are not forbidden the use of Images by this command . Is it so ? Pop. These indeed are the words of our famous Vasquez , after he hath mentioned divers Authors for the contrary opinion , There are ( saith he ) other Authors , neither fewer , nor inferiour to them , who are of the contrary opinion , which to me alwayes seemed most probable , to wit , that all the use of Images is here forbidden to the Jews a , and for this he quotes many of our approved Authors ; and Salmeron saith no less b . Prot. And you need say no more , for then all these Authors thought your distinction of Image and Idol frivolous , and that the word P●sel is meant of any Images , and not of Idols only , as you foolishly distinguish , and so your principal refuge is lost , and you are convicted Idolaters , and then , if you repent not , you know where your portion will be . Go now and brag of the safeness of your Religion . I see how little it is that you can say for your Worship of the Dead ( Saints and their Images ) let me hear whether you have any better Arguments for your Prayers for the Dead and Purgatory . Pop. I am glad you mention that , since all your Divines do agree that Prayer for the Dead was the practice of the Antient Church and Fathers . Prot. If that be true , it is not sufficient for your purpose , for I am fully satisfied that the Fathers were not infallible , and your own greatest Doctors think so too * . But Besides , I am told that their Prayers for the dead were quite of another nature than yours , and for other purposes , and they were grounded upon some private opinions of theirs , which you disown ; for they prayed not only for those whom you suppose to be in Purgatory , but for those who ( you confess ) many of them never did come there : they pray for all the Saints from the righteous Abel to this day ; they pray for all their Ancestors , Patriarchs , Prophets , and Martyrs , as I have heard it in some of their Liturgies . Is it so ? Pop. It is so . Prot. I pray you tell me , what do you pray for the Dead ? Pop. We pray that God would deliver them from those dreadful pains of Purgatory . Prot. Then if there be no Purgatory , the foundation of your Prayers for the dead is gone . Pop. I grant it . Prot. Then let us discourse of the most fundamental point , ( as we have hitherto done ) the rest will fall of course . Therefore . First , I pray tell me your opinion concerning Purgatory . Pop. Our Doctrine in brief is this , That though God freely gives , to all that are truly penitent , forgiveness of their sins , and freedom from eternal death ; yet since they have much venial sin and corruption in them , in which oft-times they die : therefore it is necessary that they should , for the expiation of those sins , and for the satisfaction of Gods Justice , either do or suffer , such Penances , Fastings , Prayers , &c. as are enjoyned them here , or ( where those are not sufficient ) suffer the pains of Purgatorie . Prot. I understand your Doctrine ; now let me hear two of your strongest Arguments to prove it : I hear that Bellarmin threatens us , that whosoever doth not believe Purgatory , shall be tormented in Hell a Is it true ? Pop. He doth say so , and I am of his mind . Prot. Then I hope you have very clear Arguments for it , because you lay so great a stress upon it . But first , I have heard that this Doctrine of Purgatory is confessed by divers of your own Brethren to be but a new Doctrine . Is it so ? Pop. I will not dissemble with you , several of our Doctors have unadvisedly blurted out such expressions as these : our famous English Martyr Fisher Bishop of Rochester confesseth , That Purgatory was for a long time unknown , and either never or very seldom mentioned among the Antient Fathers b and Alphonsus de Castro saith , That many things are known to us , of which the Antient Writers were altogether ignorant c and amongst them he reckons Purgatory , which ( saith he ) the Greek Writers mentioned not , and even to this day it is not believed by the Greek Church . Prot. I suppose , you do not think all these Antient Fathers were damned . Pop. No , God forbid , for many of them were glorious Confessors and Martyrs . Prot. Then I see Bellarmines threats are not very formidable . But to let this pass , How do you prove this Doctrine ? Pop. From plain Scripture , 1. From Mat. 12. 32. Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost , it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world , neither in the world to come . Which clearly implies , that some sins not forgiven in this world , are forgiven in the next , and that must be in Purgatory . Prot. I pray you tell me , what sins are they which are forgiven in Purgatory ? Pop. Not great and mortal , but small and venial sins , as we all agree . Prot. Is not blasphemy against the Son of Man a mortal sin ? Pop. Yes doubtless , But what of that ? Prot. If this Text proves the pardon of any sins , it proves the pardon of that sin no less than others , because the sin against the Holy Ghost is here spoken of as the only sin which is unpardonable in both worlds : Besides , Christ speaks thus in opposition to a corrupt opinion , which , I have heard , now is , and then was rife among the Jews , to wit , that divers of their sins were pardoned after this life , and that this was one of their antient Prayers , Let my death be the expiation of all my sins : for they thought the sufferings of this life and death , the last of them , did free them from the punishments of the other life : And I have heard that it was one of their sayings , That every Israelite hath a part in the future life : Are these things so ? Pop. To deal freely with you . This is not only true , but it is one of our Arguments for Purgatory , that Jason the Cyrenian ( who lived long before Christs time ) expresly affirms , that it is profitable to pray for the dead , that their sins may be pardoned , 2 Mac. 12. Prot. I think that is impertinently alledged for Purgatory : for the sin those men died in , was a mortal sin , ( as you confess ) and therefore not pardonable in Purgatory . But I thank you for this ; for now I am satisfied that it was an antient opinion among the Iews , and so Christ had just occasion to use this expression , to confute that vain expectation of theirs . But besides , the meaning of this phrase , Shall not be forgiven , is , that it shall be punished in both Worlds : this is a frequent phrase in Scripture . Thus Exod. 20. 7. God will not hold him guiltless , that is , he will severely punish : To accept persons in judgment is not good , that is , is very bad ; The father of a fool rejoyceth not , that is , grieveth much . I hear S. Chrysostome expounds it thus * , and a greater than he , S. Mark 3. 29. He hath never forgiveness , but is in danger of eternal damnation . Besides all this , we all agree that there is a kind of forgiveness of sin after this life , and at the Day of Judgment , Acts 3. 19. Repent , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord ; for then indeed the pardon of sin is compleated and fully manifested . And it is a common phrase in Scripture to speak of a thing as done , when it is only declared and manifested , as the Apostle saith , those words , Psal. 2. This day have I begotten thee , were fulfilled in Christs Resurrection , Act. 13. because that declared him to be the only begotten Son o God , as S. Paul saith , Rom. 1. 4. To which I might add , that by the World to come , Christ may very probably understand the time of the New Testament , which begun at Christs death . The Iews ( I hear ) oft use this expression of the days of the Messias . Nay , the Apostle himself doth so , Heb. 2. 5. This also I have read , that the Iews did generally expect a more plentiful and glorious remission of sins at that time , and so Christs meaning may be this , That this blasphemy shall not be forgiven , neither in that time nor state of the Church , ( in which Christ then was ) nor in the time of the Gospel and Kingdom of the Messias which began at his death ( as I said ) when , though there should be many great sins and sinners pardoned ( as we see there were ) yet this should not . I hope you will not brag much of your Argument from this place , let me hear your other place . Pop. My second Argument is from , 1 Cor. 3. 15. He shall be saved , yet so as by fire , that is , the fire of Purgatory . Prot. It seems you understand this fire properly , which is something strange when the whole place is metaphorical , or figurative ; The Gold and Silver , Hay and Stubble , all are metaphorical , and so doubtless is the fire . I hear your Bellarmin confesseth , that the fire mentioned , v. 13. The fire shall try every mans work , is not meant of Purgatory . Pop. He doth indeed say so . Prot. That is enough to overthrow this Argument , for it is most evident that the fire , vers . 13. and 15. is one and the same . And this Fire cannot be Purgatory , 1. Because it is the Fire of the Day of Judgement , when you confess Purgatory ends . d The time of the last Judgement is called the Day by way of eminency , Heb. 10. 25. 2 Tim. 1 : 12. 18. and 4. 8. and 1 Thess. 5. 4. And the day of revelation or manifestation of all things , ( because then all mens works will be manifested ) and the day wherein Christ will come in flaming fire . 2 This fire burns the works of men , only their Hay and Stubble , not their persons , as your Purgatory doth . 3 This fire tries both good and bad . All pass through it . The Gold and Silver is in this fire , no less than the Hay and Stubble . Pop. How then , I pray you , do you understand this place ? Prot. It is a Metaphor , or Figurative way of speaking , frequent in Scripture , and common use . The delivered Jews are said to be as a fire brand pluckt out of the burning , Amos 4. 11. Zach. 3. 2. So here , he shall be saved so as by fire , that is , not without difficulty of loss , and possibly some momentany shame : but howsoever the fire shall burn up his work , and he shall lose that part of his reward . Now I have heard your Arguments , I hope you will hear m●ne . Pop. I am ready to do that . Prot. I shall urge only two . First , Christ hath fully paid our debt , and satisfied Gods Justice for all our offences ; and therefore it were injustice in God to require the payment of any part of that debt in Purgatory . Christ is a compleat Saviour , His blood cleanseth us from all sin , 1 Joh. 1. 7. He is able ( and sure he is no less willing ) to save to the uttermost , those that come to him , Heb. 7. 25. God laid all our sins upon him , Isa. 53. and he bare them all in his body , 1 Pet. 2. 24. In short , either you make Christ but an half Saviour and believers wash away part of their own guilt ; or if Christ hath fully washed away their guilt , you make god both unmerciful , and unjust , and untrue too ; so dreadfully to punish innocent persons , and those too his own children ( as you acknowledge ) whom he declares he hath freely and fully pardoned ; and to do this for sins , which you confess venial , and such as do not deserve the loss of Gods favour , and that without any necessity , This is not the act of a Father , especially so tender a Father as God is . Pop. Christ is a sufficient Saviour , and hath fully satisfied , but his satisfaction is applied to us by the pains of Purgatory . Prot. If Purgatory only apply Christs satisfaction to us , then he satisfied for our temporal as well as our eternal punishments ; and if he did so , surely he did it fully , or not at all . Besides , you need not trouble your heads about the application ; God hath provided for us more comfortable means of application , on his part , the Word , Sacraments , and Spirit ; on our parts , Faith. You may keep Purgatory for your own use , it is not fit you should be pestered with any Hereticks there . But was ever such an application of Gods Grace heard of since the World began ; that God should apply his Mercy , and the Grace of Christ Jesus , by such exquisite torments ? This is ( as one truly saith ) as if a man should apply Physick by poison , or apply the light of the Sun , by putting out our eyes . God deliver us from such appliers . This is as if a Prince should pretend a free pardon to a Malefactor , and apply it by putting him upon the Rack . Pop. Though Christ made satisfaction for the guilt of mortal sins , and eternal punishment , yet he did not for venial sins , nor temporal punishment ; and therefore they must purge out those themselves in Purgatory . Prot. If it were true that you say , yet there is no need of Purgatory ; for this purging worke may be done by temporal afflictions in this life . The truth is , you add sin , to sin , and excuse one errour with another . But what do you mean by venial sins ? Pop. We mean such smaller sins as do not exclude a man from Gods favour , nor from Heaven . Prot. Then surely you have very slight thoughts of sin , of God , and of his Law , that can so judge of such an horrid evil as Sin. Scripture fully condemns this Doctrine . It tells me that the wages of sin ( all sin , without any difference ) is death , even that death which is opposite to eternal life , Rom. 6. 23. that He that shall break the least of Gods commands , and teach men so , ( though peradventure he do it ignorantly and so according to your opinion , it is a venial sin ) shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven ; that is , he shall have no portion there . It tells me , Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the Book of the Law to do them , Gal. 3. 10. And he speaks of that curse which Christ underwent for us , and redeemed us from . It tells me , that for every idle word that men shall speak , they shall give an account thereof in the Day of Iudgment , ( and by such words , if not repented of , they shall be condemned ) Mat. 12. 36 , 37. So now your foundation , and one of the Pillars of Purgatory is gone . And as for your other fansie , that Christ did not satisfie for our temporal punishments , I pray you tell me , did not Christ suffer temporal afflictions ? Pop. Yes doubtless , the whole Gospel is full of such sufferings . Prot. Surely all that Christ suffered , he suffered for us , both in our stead , and for our good . He was cut off , not for himself , ( but for our sins ) Dan. 9. 25. It was for our sakes that he bare that temporal part of the curse , to be hanged on a Tree ; and all that pain and shame was but a temporal punishment , Gal. 3. 13. I read , Isa. 53. that Christ bore our griefs , and carried our sorrows , v. 4. which was not only accomplished in this , that he bare the guilt of our sins , as S. Peter expounds it , 1 Pet. 2. 24. but also in this , that he delivered them from sicknesses and temporal afflictions , as St. Matthew expounds it , Mat. 8. 16 , 17. and both these consist well together , since Christ removed both sin the cause , and affliction the effect of it . Pop. If Christ had satisfied for our temporal punishments , then Believers should be free from all pains , and loss , and death , which it is apparent they are not ; and therefore notwithstanding the fulness of Christs satisfaction , they may be liable to pains in Purgatory as well as in this life . Prot. To this I answer three things . First , Your inference from the pains of this life to the torments of Purgatory is weak , and false . I may , and must believe , that God afflicts his people here , because Scripture and Experience put it out of doubt . But that Cod will punish his people in Purgatory after this life , no Scripture affirms . You that can multiply your instances of the sufferings of Believers in this life , and can tell us of Adam , and David , and Solomon , and many others , have not to this day been able ( though often urged ) to produce one instance of the sufferings of any one Believer , after this life ( which one consideration is sufficient to overthrow this Argument in the judgement of any indifferent man. ) Secondly , There is not the same reason for the sufferings of believers here , and those which you suppose in Purgatory , nor are they of the same nature . The present sufferings of Believers are necessary , ( 1 Pet. 1. 6. You are in heaviness if need be ) both for Believers themselves to subdue the Flesh , which in this life is potent , and altogether needs such a curb . By this shall the iniquity of Iacob be purged , Isa. 27. 9. and to prevent their eternal damnation , 1 Cor. 11. 32. as also for the terror and caution of other offenders . So that , albeit Christ hath fully paid the debt , yet it is upon other accounts convenient that they should smart and suffer here . But there is no such necessity nor use of Purgatory sufferings , neither for Believers themselves ( since there is no mortification of corruption after this life , no temptations to sin there , no improvement of grace , no fear of eternal damnation ) a nor for example and warning to others ; For their fellow-sufferers in Purgatory , you do not pretend they are at all edified by their sufferings ; and men here , they neither see nor know any thing of these pains , nor hath God revealed any thing concerning them ; but when God makes any examples to others , he sets them in the view of others , or at least acquaints them fully therewith , as he did with Hell torments to this end . It were a sensles● thing to hang up a man in Iamaica , for the terror of those that live in England . Besides , the sufferings of Believers here do come from the love , and faithfulness of God , Heb. 12. 6. Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth , Psal. 119. 75. In faithfulness thou hast afflicted me . Accordingly , good men have looked upon them as choice mercies , Psal. 97. 12. Blessed is the man whom thou chastnest , and Psal. 119. 67. It was good for me that I was afflicted : and the denial of afflictions is threatned as a grievous punishment , Is. 1. 5. Hos. 4. 14. 17. But now the sufferings of Purgatory are in all points contrary ; they are purely vindictive , and the effects of meer wrath : nor do you esteem those sufferings a mercy , and your happiness , but freedom from them . And therefore your Argument , from the pains of this life to those in Purgatory , is foolish and absurd . Thirdly , Believers suffering here do not at all derogate from the fulness of our Redemption by Christ , because ( as I have shewed ) admitting that to be compleat , yet they are necessary for other purposes . But your Purgatory sufferings do , by communicating at least some part of his proper work to your selves . You profess they wash away part of your sins , which is Christs peculiar honor , He washed us from our sins in his own blood , Rev. 1. 5. You make them a part of the curse of the Law from which ( and not only from a part of it ) Christ hath redeemed us , himself being made a curse for us , Gal. 3. 13. You make them a real satisfaction in part to Gods justice ( which is not satisfied by all that Christ did or suffered without them . ) And , in a word , you make men in part their own Redeemers and Saviours I hope by this you see how weakly you reason from present troubles , to Purgatory torments ; and that notwithstanding your objection , my first Argument stands good ag●inst Purgatory . My second Argument is this , that the Scripture every where speaks of the state of Believers immediately after death , as happy and blessed ; and that all the sufferings of Believers are confined to this life ; and of this we have many expressions and examples too in Scripture , and not one to the contrary . The sufferings of this present time ( saith S. Paul ) are not worthy to be compared with the glory , Rom. 8. 18. He knew no other sufferings : the afflictions of Believers are light , and but for a moment , and they too are in things that are seen , 2 Cor. 4. 17 , 18. and therefore he knew of no sufferings in the invisible world , unless happily you will say that S. Paul's Travels were in another road into the third heavens , and so he was ignorant of Purgatory . Lazarus received his evil things in this life , Luk. 16. 25. But now he is comforted , therefore surely not in Purgatory . If our earthly house of this Tabernacle be dissolved , we have an house in Heaven , saith S. Paul , 2 Cor. 5. 1. We are no longer absent from the Lord , than present in the Body , saith S. Paul , 2 Cor. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. The Prophet assures us , that when righteous men die , they enter into peace , they rest in their beds , Isa. 57. 1 , 2. I tell you , their beds are very hard , and the Prophets mistake was very great , if they be frying in the flames of Purgatory . The Beggar died ( and it follows immediately ) he was carried by Angels into Abrahams bosom . I cannot think these Angels mistook their way : the Theif was to be with Christ that day in Paradise , Luke 23. 43. Pop. The Thief was a kind of Martyr , and so had that priviledge . Prot. His death was so far from being a Martyrdom , that it was a just punishment for his evil deeds , as he confesseth , v. 41. But because some of your Martyrs ( as you call them ) were indeed Malefactors ; therefore to salve their honour ; you make this Malefactor a Martyr . I will give you but one place more of many , and that is Rev. 14. 13. Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord , from henceforth , that they may rest from their labours . A place so clear , that I am told , a famous Doctor of your own , and one of the Sorbon-Colledge , Picherellus by name , did ingenuously confess , St. Iohn had in these few words put out the fire of Purgatory . a And I am perswaded you would have been ashamed to have kindled it again , but that by this craft you get all your living . I think I need say no more to this point , let us now go to another . We have discoursed of Purgatory : Now if you please , let us discourse of the ways whereby you pretend to free men from it , which is by Absolutions , and Indulgencies , and that which is necessary thereunto , to wit , Auricular Confession . Pop. It is well you mention that , for I assure you it is a matter of salvation and damnation ; our Council of Trent hath determined that it is by divine right necessary , and as attrition alone ( which is a grief for sin , arising only from a fear of hell ) will save a man where confession to a Priest follows ; so all the repentance in the world will never save him , without this Confession to a Priest , viz. actual where it may be had , or in desire when it cannot be actually had . Prot. Since you lay so much stress upon it , I expect suitable evidence for it . But first I pray you inform me , what your Doctrine is in this point . Pop. I will give you that in the words of the Council of Trent as near as I can : they say , That every Christian is bound under pain of damnation , to confess to a Priest all his mortal sins , which after diligent examination he can possibly remember ; yea , even his most secret sins , his very thoughts ; yea , and all the Circumstances of them which are of any moment a Prot. Now let me hear your strongest Arguments to prove this . Pop. You shall : Our two great Arguments are these ; First , Priests are by God made Iudges , and intrusted with power of the Keys for the Remission of Sins : but no Iudges can exercise judicature , unless they know and understand the cause ; and the Priest must know all the particular sins , and their circumstances by the mans own confession , or else he knows not whether to bind or loose him , to forgive or to condemn him : This is the Argument upon which the Council of Trent builds their Decree b . Prot. Tell me I pray you ; Is it necessary to Salvation , to confess every particular mortal sin ? What if a man unavoidably forget some of them ? Pop. In that case we confess they may be pardoned without it , and it may suffice to say with David , Cleanse thy servant from secret sins ast; Prot. Now your Argument is quite lost : For it seems in this case ( which may be in many hundreds of sins , especially in a person of bad memory ) your Judge can pass sentence without knowing the particular Cause , and therefore such knowledge is not necessary to his giving Absolution . Moreover , tell me , I pray you , may not a Priest absolve him from his sins , whom Christ hath absolved ? Pop. Yes doubtless . Prot. And is not every Priest bound to believe , that Christ hath absolved every person that is truly penitent ? Pop. There is no question of that . Prot. Suppose a sinner hath visibly forsaken all his wicked wayes and company , and lives a very holy life before he comes to the Priest , and the Priest is certainly informed of this : Is not the Priest bound in that case to believe he is truly penitent ? Pop. I should be most uncharitable if I should deny that . Prot ▪ Then he may without any more ado upon his desire absolve him , because it appears that Christ hath absolved him , It is not at all necessary to a Priest to this purpose to know whether a man be a greater or a less sinner , since the grace of God is offered unto great as well as little sinners : and therefore seeing this is your strong argument , and that learned Council could find no better , I see your cause is very low and bad ; but I suppose you have some other Argument for it . Pop. There is so , and that is Jam. 5. 16. Confess your faults one to another . Prot. Is this your strong argument ? here is not a word of the Priest , nor of Confession to him , but only to our fellow Christians ; this confession is mutual , and it will as well prove that the Priest is bound to confess his sins to the People , as that the People are bound to confess to the Priest : the very next words are , Pray one for another ; what are we bound to pray only for the Priest ? It is one thing that sets me against your Religion to consider what pitiful arguments you rely upon . I am assured your own brethren confess the weakness of this argument , as Vasquez a , and Cajetan b , and Caenus c , but it seems you have no better . The weakness of your arguments for it , might save me the labour of mine against it ; therefore I shall only offer to your thoughts these two considerations . 1. Your doctrine makes that necessary to salvation which God hath not made necessary . There is no command of God or Christ for it , as your eminent Doctors acknowledge , ast; and it sufficiently appears from the vanity of your proofs for it ; you confess it was not necessary in the old Testament , and yet there was as much need and use of it then as now , and Christ hath made the condition of his Church not more , but less burthensome than it was before . Many commands and exhortations to repentance there are in Scripture , not one which either commands this auricular confession to a Priest , or declares the necessity of it , produce one place and I yield ; there are many instances of Iohn the Baptist , and Christ and the Apostles , either actual giving , or in Gods Name proposing and offering remission of sins upon the conditions prescribed in the Gospel a among which not one of them requires this auricular confession : Bring one instance to the point and I yield . Pop. I will give you two instances , Matt. 3. 6. The Pharisees were baptized — confessing their sins : and , the conjurers confessed their sins , Act. 19. 18. Prot. These places do both speak of publick confession and in case of scandalous sins ( which we acknowledge to be a duty ) but what is this to auricular confession ? will you never speak to the purpose ? besides these places cannot be meant of auricular confession for that was not then instituted , as your council of Trent confesseth . Well , I see you can bring neither instance of this confession nor precept for it , and therefore I am sure there is no sin in the neglect of it , for where there is no law , there is no transgression , Rom. 4. 15. 2. Your doctrine makes that insufficient for pardon and salvation which God makes sufficient . The great God assureth us . That he that confesseth and forsaketh his sins shall find mercy , Prov. 28. 13. Pop. That makes against you , for you s●e there is confession required . Prot. And no doubt it is a mans duty to make confession to God , and in case of wrong , unto men , and sometimes to a Minister also , as in case of doubt or trouble of conscience , but this is nothing to auricular confession , nor can the text mean that , sor you grant it was not as yet instituted . God declares that if the wicked for sake his ( evil ) way and thoughts and turn unto God , he shall have mercy , Isa. 55. 7. so Isa. 1. 16. 17 , 18. so Act. 16. 31. S. Paul in Gods name promiseth , believe on the Lord Iesus and thou shalt be saved . Thus Ro. 10. 13. Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved : And who dares say , that he that doth all these things shall not be saved , unless he confess to a Priest , since God never spake such a word ? What is it to add to Gods word , if this be not ? The terms upon which Christ offered promised salvation , are Repent and believe . Pop. Auricular confession is a part of repentance . Prot. When Christ preached that doctrine it was no part of repentance , for you confess it was not then instituted , your Council of Trent determines , that it was instituted by Christ after his resurrection . * And you will find it hard to perswade any rational man , that repentance wanted a necessary part before Christs resurrection , or that it was of one kind before it , and quite another after it . But I will not waste more time about so vain a fancy , for my part I rest upon Christs gracious promises to repenting and believing Sinners : By Gods grace I will endeavour to do these things , and I doubt not but he will make good his words whether you will or no ; let God be true and every man a lyar . But possibly you have better arguments for Absolutions and Indulgences : Produce them , but first let me hear what your doctrine in this point is . Pop. I will give you this in brief together with the rise and ground of it : We believe ; first . That there are divers Saints who have not only merit for themselves , but a great deal to spare , and all their merits are put into one treasury . Secondly , That these merits are appliable to others , so as God will pardon Thomas , for example , for Iohns merit . Thirdly , That God hath put this treasure into the Churches , that is , the Popes hands , and from him into the hands of all Priests , who have a power to apply these merits as they see fit . Prot. There is nothing sound and solid in this whole discourse ; first , I have proved that there is no Purgatory , there is your foundation of indulgences gone ; next I hope ere we part to shew , that there is no such thing as merit in good works , which is another of your foundations . Next , that any mans merits ( except Christs ) may be applied to another , I pray you inform me , for I have learned quite otherwise : I read that every one shall bear his own burden , Gal. 6. 6. Every one shall receive according to what HE hath done in his body , 2 Cor. 5. 10. The wise Virgins differed from you , they thought they had oyl little enough for themselves and none at all to spare , Mat. 25. 9. So if you are Virgins , it seems you are none of that sort . If you can prove this conceit of yours , do . Pop. I will give you a clear place , Col. 1. 24. S. Paul saith , I now rejoyce in my sufferings for you and fill up that which is behind or that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his bodies sake which is the Church . Prot. First tell me , do you think any thing was lacking or defective in Christs sufferings . Pop. No , You use to charge us with that opinion , but falsly . Prot. It is well you grant thus much , but if you denied it , a cloud of plain Scriptures would force you to grant it , which tells us that by one offering Christ perfected for ever them that are sanctified , Heb. 10. 14. and that he is able to save to the uttermost , Heb. 7. 25. By sufferings of Christ then , we must understand the sufferings of Christ mystical , or Christ in his members , which are usually so called ; a when Christ had done suffering in his person , he left it as a legacy to his members , that they should suffer with him , and for him , b and St. Paul bore his share in these sufferings ; and for the last clause of his suffering for the Church , The phrase , it is true , is ambiguous , and sometimes indeed it signifies to satisfie Gods justice for another , but in this sense St. Paul rejects it with indignation , 1 Cor. 1. 13. was Paul crucified for you ? But it is not always thus taken , for St. Paul saith he suffered for Christ , 2 Cor. 12. 10. not surely to satisfie for him : There is therefore another sense , and that is , he suffered for the Churches edification , & establishment , and so indeed he elsewhere explains himself , Phil. 1. 12. and I am told that your own brethren understand it thus , c and your Bellarmin confesseth the words may be thus expounded , but only saith , the words may conveniently receive this sense , a which is as much as to say , if you will be courteous you may grant him the Argument , but if you do not , he cannot prove it . But , admit there be such a treasury of Merits for others , as you pretended ; how prove you that your Priests are made Judges , and invested with such a power of distributing those Merits and giving Absolutions , as you challenge ? Pop. Our great Argument is , John 20. 23. Whosesoever sins ye remit they are remitted , and whosesoever sins ye retain , they are retained . Answer me this Argument , and I will yield up this Cause . Prot. What Argument do you draw from these words ? Pop. Hence it appears that Ministers are made judges , and intrusted with full power and authority of binding and loosing ; so as Christ doth not loose ( or forgive ) a sinner by himself , but only by the Priest , as Bellarmin saith . b And to speak properly , as our most learned Vasquez affirmeth , God doth not properly loose a sinner , but only approves of the Priests loosing of him ( b ) . Prot. Now in my opinion , it were good manners to make the Priest come after God , and not to make God depend upon the Priest. It seems then , if the Priest , should grow surly or envious , and deny me a Pardon , Christ cannot help me , for he hath given the power out of his hands : So you make the Priest the Judge , and God only the Approver . The Lord rebuke this spirit of Blasphemy . Again , nothing is more familiar in Scripture than for Gods Ministers to be said to do that , which they do only authoritatively declare that God will do . Thus God saith to Ieremy , I have set thee over Kingdoms to root out , and pull down , and destroy , that is , by declaring that God would do it : In like manner Gods Ministers are said to bind and loose , because they have from God authority , to declare a Sinner to be bound by his Sins , or loosed from them , which ( if they declare truly and according to Gods word ) God in heaven doth and will make it good . As for this Text , it saith nothing but this , that every one whom they bind or loose , that is , proceeding according to their rule , ( which is always to be understood ) shall be bound or loosed in heaven ; but it doth not say that no man is bound or loosed , but they whom the Priest bindeth and looseth . But besides , if all these things were granted , how doth this Text prove that the Priest or Pope can absolve or release any souls out of Purgatory , if there were such a place ? I pray you tell me , can the Pope binde any soul and keep him in Purgatory ? Pop. No , we do not pretend to that . Prot. Then he cannot loose a soul neither out of Purgatory ; for I am sure binding and loosing are of the same extent . But upon second thoughts , I must own your discretion ; for the binding of souls in Purgatory was an invidious and unprofitable work , and would have bound up mens hearts and purses : It is only the loosing of them out which opens their purse strings , & tends to the edification of the Church , that is , the Pope and Priests ( as they always understand that word . ) In sober sadness , it is enough to make any serious Christian abhor your Church , that your Pope should not be content to usurp a power over the whole visible world , but that he should extend his Authority to the other world , even to Purgatory . In my opinion he had done more wisely to have extended his empire to Hell , for there are many of his Predecessours ( so far as can be judged by any mans life ) whom he might have appointed his Deputies : but there is never a Pope in Purgatory ; for they who can release others at pleasure , will certainly deliver themselves : But now I speak of that , I pray you tell me if it be true that I have heard , that the Pope when he dies , receives Absolution from his Confessor , and that after his death the Cardinals give him Absolution , and give order for the singing of abundance of Masses ? Pop. It is true , I was at Rome when the last Pope died , and it was so then , and our Books justifie it . Prot. I am much pleased with your ingenuity , so the Pope gives the Priest a power to pardon himself ; methinks he might save the charges of a Confessor ; it were enough to say , I absolve my self . But tell me , do you say Masses for any that are in Heaven or in Hell. Pop. No , we utterly disclaim that . Prot. Then I perceive the Pope goes into Purgatory . I see your Popes are not self-seeking men ( as they are slandered to be ) that help so many thousands out of Purgatory , and leave themselves in . But really , this is to me a convincing Argument , that you do not believe your selves , but deceive poor silly people against your Consciences : For else you might be assured the Pope would never come into Purgatory ; for you say he can keep himself out , and no man doubts of his will to do it . Besides , your Doctrine usurps upon God's Prerogative . I had thought it was only my Father in Heaven to whom I should have prayed , Forgive us our Trespasses : Now it seems we must pray so to one of these Padre's upon earth . You make Subjects the supream Judges of all Offences committed against their Soveraign , and your Priests sit as Umpires between God and the Sinner , and determine what Satisfaction God shall have , and what Penance the Sinner shall undergo . Methinks they are brave fellows ; and I now see it was not without ground that Father Cotton bragged , That he could do any thing when he had his God in his hand , ( that was the Sacrament ) and his King upon his knees ( in Confession . ) I think you will bring Christ upon his knees too , for it seems you have resolved , that he shall stand to your Priests Arbitration . I might add to this , that you leave the souls of people to endless perplexities ; you confess , that Indulgences profit not , If a man be not in the state of grace a , ( which you say a man cannot certainly know ) or if a man have not made a free and full Confession after sufficient examination * and who knows when he hath done these things sufficiently ? ) or if the Priest do not intend to pardon him ( and who knows another mans intentions ? ) and yet you would have me so desperate to venture my soul upon such sandy foundations , that your selves are afraid and ashamed of . But , to leave this , I perceive that this , and divers of your other Doctrines are grounded upon that of the merit of good works , which because I judge a very pernicious and dangerous Doctrine ; let me hear what you can say for it : but first , let me understand your Doctrine : for I have heard some of you cry out , that our Divines slandered them , and profess that they did not hold Merit strictly , but cast the honour of all upon Christ and the grace of God ; therefore I pray you inform me . Pop. I will be plain and candid with you , I do not like such Artifices ; The Council of Trent in plain terms affirms , That our good works do truly merit increase of grace and eternal life a ; and our famous Bellarmiue disputes , and proves , That good works do not only merit in respect of Gods gracious Covenant , but in regard of the worthiness of the works themselves , and that eternal life is not only due from Gods liberality , but from his just judgment b . Prot. I pray you tell me , hath Bellarmin such expressions as these , That because God would honour his children , he would have them to get Heaven by their merits , which is more honourable to them , than to receive it ly Gods free gift ? Pop. Bellarmine doth say so c . Prot. I see he was a man of a brave spirit , and much a Gentleman : but in my poor opinion , he should have taken a little care for the honour of God , as well as of the Saints . But I have heard of many other strange expressions ascribed to your Authors . I hear your Tapperus saith , Far be it from them , that righteous men should expect eternal life as a beggar doth an alms . It is much more glorious that they should receive it as Conquerours and Triumphers , and possess it as a reward due to their labours d ; I see also this was a man of honour : And again , That our good works deserve the reward from God as from a just Iudge , and are able to abide the severe judgement of God , though he weigh all Circumstances c . I am told that your renowned Vasquez saith , That Eternal life is due to the works of good men , without any Covenant , or the favour of God d . And your learned Cajetan and Dominicus à Scoto say as much , as I hear Bellarmine reports e . And that Vasquez again saith , The merits or Person of Christ adds no worth to the works of good men f . This man was resolved so far to tread in Abraham's steps ; as Abraham would not receive from the King of Sodom , so he would not receive from Christ , from a thread to a shoe-latchet , lest it should be said Christ had made him rich . Are these things true ? Pop. It is so . Prot. Then sure I am , our Religion is the safest way ; If we do err , it is in giving too much to God ; but if you err , it is no less than the worst kind of sacriledge to rob God of so much of his glory and the honour of your Salvation . Yet , if you can prove this , I will receive it . Produce your strongest Arguments . Pop. First then , I prove it hence , That Eternal life is called a reward , Mat. 5. 12. and given to Labourers in the Vineyard , Mat. 20. Prot. We must compare Scripture with Scripture : other places tell us , it is an Inheritance , Gal. 4. 7. Rom. 8. 17. The same Estate cannot be mine both by inheritance and purchase . Pop. Yes it may , I will prove it by an instance . The glory which Christ had was his by inheritance ( for he was heir of all things ) and yet by purchase , Philip. 2. 8 , 9. Prot. I thank you for this objection : I have scarce had any thing from you like a solid Argument but this : It deserves an Answer ; First then , this will not reach our case : The great hinderance of merit in our works is , that the best of them are imperfect , and a debt we owe to God before hand ; but Christs works are of another kind , they are compleat and perfect , and in part no debt ; for though when Christ was made Man , he was a debtor to God , and bound as a creature to fulfill the Law , yet this was a voluntary act , and no debt to God , that he would become Man , and so put himself under the Law. Besides , the dignity of his Person made his works proportionable unto all the glory he received ; whereas all our sufferings are not worthy to be compared with our glory , Rom. 8. 18. Secondly , It might be both an Inheritance and Parchase in Christ in divers respects ; because he had two natures ; as he was God , or the Son of God , it was his Inheritance , and belonged to his Manhood only as united with the Godhead ; as he was Man , he might purchase it , by what he did and suffered in the flesh : But in us there are not two natures , nor any of these pretences to merit . Moreover Scripture speaks of two kinds of Rewards , the one of Grace , the other of Debt , and withal affirms , that the reward which God gives to good men is meerly of grace , ( as we profess ) and not of debt ( as you pretend ) Rom. 4. 4. Pop. Possibly it may be of both , as Bellarmin saith * . Prot. No , the Apostle forbids that , Rom. 11. 6. If by grace , it is no more of works , otherwise grace is no more grace , but if it be of works , then it is no more grace , otherwise work is no more work , and this reward is not given to him that worketh , but believeth , Rom 4. 5. No Protestant could speak our Doctrine more fully . Pop. But God gives this reward to men for working in his Vineyard , Mat. 20. Prot. It is true ; but still the reward appears to be of grace , because it is alike to him that came at the last hour , as to them that had born the heat and burden of the day , vers . 12. but that Heaven is a reward of Justice , and a due debt , ( as you profess ) this Text proves not , and other Scriptures plainly contradict . Pop. But God is said to reward men according to their works , that is according to the proportion of them , and that implies merit . Prot. Not so neither ; for since God is pleased to reward in us , his own gifts and graces , not our merits , as S. Bernard speaks , he may still keep the proportion , and to them to whom he gives more grace here , he may give more glory hereafter ; and yet there is no more merit in this additional reward than in the rest . Again , I may as well conclude , that the blind men merited their sight , because Christ saith , Be it unto you according to your faith , Matth. 9. 29. as you gather merit from this phrase , according to your work ; therefore let me hear if you have any other Argument . Pop. Our works are mentioned as the causes for which God gives eternal life , Mat. 25. Come ye blessed , for I was hungry and you fed me , and other like places . Prot. S. Paul did not think this a good Argument ; for though he knew that it was said of Abraham , Because thou hast done this , I will bless thee , Gen. 22. 16 , 17. yet he positively denies the merit of Abraham's works , Rom. 4. & Gal. 3. And he saith of himself , I obtained mercy , because I did it ignorantly , 1 Tim. 1. 13. yet I hope you do not think his ignorance merited mercy : The King saith , I forgive thee all that debt , because thou desiredst me , Mat. 18. 32. Did his asking deserve it ? Besides all this , if God did reward them for their good works , this will not prove merit ; if God reward men infinitely more than their good works deserve ( as God indeed doth ) and Bellarmine acknowledgeth so much . * Pop. But good men are said to be worthy , Rev. 3. 4. Prot. They are so comparatively to other men , and also by Gods gracious acceptation in and through Christ , but otherwise the holiest Saints of God have ever judged themselves unworthy of the least of Gods mercies ( so far were they from thinking they were worthy of eternal life ) Gen. 32. 10. Mat. 8 8. And since it is Gods grace which gives them all their worth and meetness for Heaven , Coloss. 1. 12. it is impudence to pretend to merit from God by it . If yet you will boast of your own worth and merit , answer the Apostles question at your leasure , 1 Cor. 4. 7. For who maketh thee to differ from another ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive ? now if thou didst receive it , why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it ? If you can baffle your conscience now , you will find it an hard question to answer at the last day . Pop. But eternal life is given them by Gods justice , 2 Thess. 4. 6. 1 Tim. 4. 7 , 8. Prot. This word also doth not prove any merit , for Gods Justice is oft-times taken improperly , I read 1 Iohn 1. 9. If we confess our sins he is just and faithful to forgive them , yet justification is not merited as you confess , but is an act of meer grace , being justified freely by his grace , &c. Rom. 3. 24 , 28. thus , 2 Pet. 1. 1. we are said to obtain precious faith through the righteousness of God ; and yet faith is the gift of God , and you confess that is given without merit ( for you grant none but justified persons can merit ) therefore , in such places , justice is taken either for equity and the congruity of it with Gods nature or word , or for the faithfulness of God , or the like . Pop. Since you despise my arguments , let me hear if you have better against the merit of good works . Prot. You shall , and methinks that one place , Luke 17. 10. should convince you , when ye shall have done all these things which are commanded you , say we are unprofitable servants , we have done that which was our duty to do . Pop. Christ doth not affirm they are unprofitable , but only bids them say they are unprofitable , and teaches them to be humble . a Prot. Very well : then you think Christ taught them to think one thing , and say another , that is , he taught them the art of lying , and that to God. Pop. I answer further , that without Gods grace men are unprofitable , they only can merit that are in the state of grace as our Church holds . Prot. Doth not your Conscience tell you the Apostles , whom Christ commands to say thus , were in the state of grace ? Pop. Though a man cannot profit God , he may profit himself . Prot. If he cannot profit God , he cannot properly merit any thing from God , for that implies a proportion between giving and receiving . Pop. It is true we are unprofitable by our selves in regard of Gods absolute Soveraignty , but not unprofitable in regard of Gods gracious Covenant . Prot. It is ridiculous to say , that is merit properly which depends on Gods meer grace , and besides the Pharisees themselves , whose errour Christ there strikes at , were never so vain or absurd to think , that they could be profitable to God , in any other sense than what you affirm . Pop. Let me hear your other Argument . Prot. The nature of merit shews the impossibility of it in men : It is evident that to merit , these amongst other ingredients , are required . First , that the work be not due already : doth any man deserve an estate for that money whereby he payes an old debt ? Secondly , That the work be our own ; you do not think a noble mans Almoner , merits by distributing his Masters Alms. Thirdly , that it be profitable to him of whom he merits . Fourthly , That the work be perfect ; for that action which needs a pardon , certainly cannot deserve a reward . Fifthly , That it be suitable to the reward ; if I present my Prince with an Horse , and he requites me with a Lordship , who but a Horse would pretend this was merited ? Pop. I must acknowledge most of these things are true , but this doth not concern our works . Prot. That we will now examine , and first , all the works now we can do for God are deserved by him : It fills me with horrour to hear men pretending to merit of that God , who ( as they profess ) created them , and every day upholds their souls in life , and redeemed them , and is so infinitely before hand with them every way ; Tell me , dare you say that God doth not deserve , that you should do the utmost you can , for his service and glory ? Pop. I will not say so . Prot. Then it is impudence to pretend merit from God ; besides , the good works we do , are not properly our own , but Gods ; Faith is the gift of G●d , Ephes. 2. 8. Phil. 1. 29. So is Repentance , Acts 11. 18. & 5. 31. and in general , every good and perfect gift is from God , Jam. 1. 17. Pop. The first grace is from God , but that I use it right , that is from my self , and thereby it is that I merit . Prot. St. Paul was not of your mind ; what good work is there but it lies either in willing or doing ? yet both these God works in us , Phil. 2. 13. not only the power of believing , but the act too , ( and suffering also ) is the gift of God , Phil. 1. 29. and St. Pauls abundant labours in the Gospel , which certainly amounted to merit , if there were ever such a thing in the world , and which , if any thing , was his own act , yet he dare not take to himself , I laboured , yet not I , but the grace of God which was with me , 1 Cor. 15. 10. No less evident is it , that our works cannot profit God , Psal. 16. 4. Iob 22. 3. & 35. 7 , as also our best works are so far from meriting , that they need a pardon for the infirmities accompanying them , by reason of which the best of Saints have been afraid of the severe judgments of God even upon their best works ; so was Iob a and David b and Paul c And lastly , it is so evident that our works are not proportionable to the reward , that Bellarmin hath a Chapter upon this head , to prove that good works are rewarded above their desert ; d and therefore it is an intollerable arrogance to affirm that divers of the Saints have not only merit enough to purchase eternal life , but a great deal to spare for the relief of others . To let this point pass , now I would willingly be informed of two things , which concern us Lay-people in an especial manner ; First , Why you defraud us of the Cup. Secondly , Why you order Prayer to be made in a language that many , nay , most of us do not understand : For the first , you rob us of one half of the Sacrament , viz. of the Cup ; what can you say to acquit your selves from sacriledge ? Pop. Let me hear what right you have to it . Prot. First , I remember you disputed for Transubstantiation out of Iohn 6. which , you said , spoke of the Sacrament ; now if you say true , there is a passage in it , verse 53 , except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood , you have no life in you ; if this be spoken of the Sacrament ( as you say it is ) and the wine be really his blood , then you do no less than murder all your people , by robbing them of that which is necessary to their life . Pop. Not so , ( for as I shall shew you ) you have the blood in the body ( or bread . ) Prot. If it be so , yet my taking it in that manner cannot be called a drinking it , unless you will say that every man that eats rawish meat , may be said to drink the blood which he eats in it ; but further , I think we have as great right to the cup as your Priests , we have Christs do this , and you pretend no more ; in short , we have both the legacy and command of Christ fortified with this strong reason , this cup is the new Testament in my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins ; whereby it sufficiently appears , that the signe belongs to all that have interest in the thing , and are capable of discerning the Lords body ; and this command of Christ is express and positive , Mat. 26. Drink ye ALL of it , it is remarkable that he doth not say , eat ye all ( though they were to do so ) but drink ye all of it , as foreseeing the sacriledge of your Church ; what can you say to this ? Pop. First I say here is no command but an institution only . Prot. I understand no subtilties ; but if you say , this was no command of drinking , then it was no command of eating , to say , take , eat , and so the Sacrament is not commanded : but people may receive or refuse it as they please , and Christs do this is no more than do as you list ; for my part I shall never know when Christ commands any thing , if this be not a command , for no command can run in more express words . Pop. If this be a command , it concerns only Priests , for such the Apostles were , and they only were present . Prot. Since it is evident , that eating and drinking belong to the same persons , if the one be restrained to the Apostles ; so is the other , and because you confess the eating belongs to the people by vertue of this precept . [ Eat of it ] by the same reason also doth the drinking reach to them also by vertue of that precept , [ Drink of it . ] Besides the Apostles though they were Ministers , yet in this act they were in the peoples stead , and Christ was the Minister or dispenser of the Sacrament , and they only the receivers of it at this time . Besides , as they were Ministers he bad them do this , that is , take and distribute bread and wine to the people as he had to them ; If Ministers be under any command of administring and giving the Sacrament , certainly it is here ( for no command can be more express ) and if they are commanded to give the bread to the people , they are commanded to give the wine also , for here is no difference at all . Adde to this that St. Paul hath put this out of doubt , and he expounds this of , and applies it to the people , for thus he writes to all the Corinthians , Let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that Cup , 1 Cor. 11. 28. in four verses together , viz. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. eating and drinking are inseparably joyned together , which you have so wickedly divided : If it be a Command , Let a man examine himself , ( which none will deny ) then it is a Command ( which immediately follows ) so let him eat this Bread , and drink this Cup. Pop. It doth not appear , that there is an absolute command of drinking , but only that as oft as they do drink it , they should drink it in remembrance of Christ. Prot. If this be so , then here is no command for the Priest , either to Consecrate the Cup , or to Receive it . And further , then here is no command for his Consecrating or receiving the Bread neither ; for there is no more than a Do this , and that is for the Wine as well as for the Bread. Pop. Here is a difference , for he saith of the Body simply , Do this in remembrance of me ; but of the Cup , This do ye as oft as you drink it . Prot. If you lay any stress upon these words , as oft as you do it , I beseech you make use of your eyes , and you shall read that it is said of the Bread as well as of the Cup , Vers. 26. For as oft as ye eat this Bread , and drink this Cup. Well , I am sorry to see that you dare oppose such plain Scripture upon such pitiful pretences . But I pray you let me ask you , I have been told that your famous Council of Censtance , in their Canon , for the receiving the Sacrament in one kind , have these expressions ; Although Christ did Minister this Sacrament und●r the forms of Bread and Wine — And although in the Primitive Church this — Sacrament was received by the faithful under both kinds — Yet they make a Canon that it shall be received under one kinde only . Is this so ? Pop. It is true ; they are the very words of the Council . Prot. This was a wise Council indeed , wiser than Christ and all his Apostles ; but I should think we are on the safest side , having Christ and all the Primitive Churches for our patterns : and by this I see what to judge of your glorious pretences , that yours is the Antient and Apostolical Faith , and ours ( forsooth ) but a new Religion . But I pray let me hear what you have to say for this fact of yours in taking away the Cup ? I see Scripture is against you , and the Antient Church , at least so far that for 1400. years together the people might drink of the Cup , ( if they would ) as I am told your Becanus confesseth * . Pop. You are greatly mistaken , we have Scripture for us , we have examples there , of receiving the Sacrament in one kind , Acts 2. 42. They continued in the Apostles Doctrine , and breaking of Bread ; and Acts 20. 17. They came together to break Bread. Prot. It is usual to express an whole Feast by this one thing , Christ went into the Pharisees house to eat bread , Luk. 14. 2. I suppose , you think it was not a dry feast ; Ioseph's Brethren sat to eat , Gen. 37. 25. so Act. 27. 35. Paul ( and the rest ) took bread and eat it , yet none doubts but they had drink with it . Besides , here is as much said of the People , as of the Ministers drinking of the Cup , that is , neither is here mentioned ; and if the silence concerning the Cup be a good Argument , it proves that neither did partake of it : if it be not , then both might partake of it : But what have you more to say ? Pop. You need not be troubled so much at the loss of the Cup , since the blood is contained in the Bread , that is , in the Body , by concomitancy . Prot. This is in effect to tell Christ the Cup was a superfluous device : Besides , we are commanded to drink the Cup : If I should dip bread in drink and eat it , no man will say I drink the bread . Again , this destroys the main end of the Sacrament , which is to shew forth Christs death , and the shedding of his blood ; and this was the reason why Christ appointed the Bread and Wine apart , as the fittest means to bring to our memories , the pouring of his blood out of his body for us ; and as God would have us to remember the thing , so he commanded us to use this sign of drinking the Cup. Pop. But there are many weighty reasons why it is not fit you should partake of the Cup. Prot. I dare not forsake plain Scripture for any subtil pretences of Humane Reason ; but let me hear them . Pop. 1. In some Countries Wine is not to be had . 2. Some there are who have an antipathy against Wine , and cannot drink any . 3. There is great danger of spilling the Wine , which is the Blood of Christ. Prot. Are these your weighty Reasons ; I see the Reason and Religion of Rome are both of a Complexion . But I pray you how came it to pass , that Christ and his Apostles , and all the Primitive Christians for so many hundreds of years should prescribe and use the Cup , notwithstanding those reasons ? surely if these reasons are strong now , they were so 1660. years ago : Wine was as scarce then ( as now it is ) in some Countries ; abstemious persons were then as well as now ; the Wine might be spilled then as much as now . But they feared none of these things ; either they were all stupid that did not see these things , or your Church is audacious , that dare in effect teach Christ and his Apostles , what they should have done . It might peradventure be added , that in such places where Wine cannot be had , or for some persons who cannot drink Wine , some other thing proportionable to it may be allowed ; but if it might not , or if in such special cases they were confined to one kind , I am sure it is a ridiculous consequence , that because they must be content with the Bread that cannot drink of the Cup , therefore they that can , shall go without it ; and because it may be omitted where it cannot be had , therefore it shall be omitted where it may be enjoyed . And for the danger of spilling of the Wine , there is also danger in dropping some of the Bread , and so that should be denied : By this Argument also the Priest should not meddle with the Wine , for he may spill it ; but indeed such phantastical Reasons as these deserve no Answer ; they make me almost sick to hear them . There is only one point more , I would be informed in , what you can pretend for it , and that is , That your Publick Prayers are performed in a Language unknown to most of your people . Pop. What have you to say against it ? Prot. What can be said more plainly and fully against it by us , than what S. Paul saith , 1 Cor. 14. there I find some , who having the Gift of speaking with divers Languages , did use it without interpreting them in the Publick Assembly ; those the Apostle informs , that there is a better gift and more desirable than that of Tongues , namely Prophesie , and he useth divers reasons , which are so many undeniable Arguments against your Latine Prayers : He tells them it is their duty to manage Publick Worship , so as the Church may be edified , verse . 4 , 5 , 12. I hope you will not deny this . Pop. None can deny that . Prot. Well ; then he tells us that what is spoken in an unknown Language doth not edifie the Church , vers . 4 , 11 , 12 , 14. 2. Yet again , the Apostle commands that if any do speak in an unknown Tongue it must be interpreted , vers . 27. you disobey this command . 3. He argues that Publick Prayers are so to be made by the Minister that the People may say Amen , v. 16. And he also tells us that no man can say Amen to that which he doth not understand , vers . 15. so the Apostle stops all your starting holes . Pop. The very word ▪ men is Hebrew . Prot. You dispute not only against me , but against the Apostle himself ; but Amen , though an Hebrew word , is by common use sufficiently known to us all , to express our consent to his Prayers , and confidence that God will hear them . 4. Yet again , he argues that strange Tongues are designed only for the Conviction of Unbelievers , not to be used be Believers amongst themselves , unless interpreted , v. 22. What can , or dare you say against such clear places ? Pop. S. Paul speaks not of the ordinary service of the Church , but of extraordinary Hymnes and Songs . Prot. That is false ; he speaks of the ordinary service of the Church , though at that time there was something extraordinary in it ; and besides , his reasons reach to all times and services , ordinary or extraordinary ; must we not look to the Edification of the Church in the one as well as the other ? Must not the people say Amen in one as well as the other ? Let me hear therefore what you have to say for your selves . Pop. Preaching ought to be in a known language ; for the end of that is the peoples Edification , but Prayers are made to God. Prot. Though they are made to God , yet they are made by the Church , who are to joyn in those Prayers , and to signifie their consent by saying Amen , which requires their understanding : And moreover , that Chapter speaks as expresly of Praying as it doth of Prophesying in the Church . Surely the people went not to Church to sit there like senseless Images , but to offer up a reasonable service , and to tender their Prayers and Praises unto God by the mouth of the Minister , as they did , Act. 4. 24 , They lift up their voice with one accord . And if we pray with you , we must understand ; else we cannot pray in faith ( as it is our duty to do ) and we shall fall into their error to ask we know not what . Pop. You need not concern your self about that ; you may rely upon the wisdom and fidelity of the Church , who takes care that your prayers be right . Prot. I confess there is this great encouragement for it , that your Church , it seems , is wiser than St. Paul : but as a friend I advise you to give this Counsel of relying upon your Church to the Indians , or some remote places , for they that know her will never trust her . For my part , my Saviours words make me cautious , If the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch . If I had no other argument of your Churches Fallibility and Apostacy ; this one point were a sufficient evidence of them both . But what have you more to say ? Pop. I will give you then a Scripture instance ; The Priests prayed in the Temple when the People waited without , Luke 1. 21. Prot. What is this to the purpose ? I do not read , that the Priest prayed at all , but only went in to offer Incense ; but if he did pray , he did it alone , not with and before the people , as your prayers are ; you might as well plead thu ; Those Priests said nothing at all , and therefore your Priests need only make a dumb shew , and may serve their Latin ( as well as their English ) which may be good counsel for many of them , that have so little to spare . But seriously can you , or any rational man think , these reasons of sufficient weight to oppose against that great Scripture rule of Edification , and the express words and plain arguments of St. Paul ; God deliver me from such a besotting Religion . Besides what I have said , I shall leave this with you at parting , that you do not only oppose Scripture , but also that Antient Church which you pretend to reverence , and to follow her steps , and your practice is contrary to the Church in all antient times . The Prayers of the Iews in publick , were alwayes made in the Hebrew tongue , and in that Tongue God gave them those forms of Prayer and blessing which were then used , Numb . 6. 10. God gave the gift of Languages to that end , that the Apostles might establish the Worship of God in every Nation in their own Language : And I am told , that Origen reports this , to be the practice of the Church in this time ( as well as his own Judgment ) That every one did pray to God in his own dialect , Greeks in Greek , and Latines in Latin , &c. a Besides , I am told , that your own Authors , Lyra , Aquinas , and Harding , and others confess , this was the practice of the antient Church , and that one of your own Councils , that of Lateran in the year 1215. did make this order , that Whereas in many places there were mixed people of divers Languages and customs , the Bishops should take care to provide fit men , that should perform divine Service amongst them , according to this difference of Rites and Languages . b Moreover , that your great Cardinal Cajetan confesseth , that Prayers ought to be in a known tongue . c Are these things so ? Pop. I cannot deny it . Their Books are extant . Prot. Then by this , I see , how far your Church is , not only from Infallibility , but from common honesty , that dare pretend they hold nothing But what hath been by constant Tradition conveyed to them from the Apostles times until this day . And by this I shall judge of all your other brags of Antiquity in your Doctrine . So I see you are obstinate and incorrigible , and therefore I shall trouble my self no further to talk with you . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A55374-e1050 * Concil . Trident. † See my Nullity of Romish Faith , Chap. 2. Sect. 4. * De Pontifice , l. 4. c. 2. * Cressy in Exomolog . In the Appendix , Chap. 4. num . 7. Holden de Resolutione fidei , l. 2. c. 1. * Lib. 5. Cap. 1. * See Potter and Chillingworth . * De Pontific . l. 4. c. 2. * De Eccl siâ militante , l. 3. c. 16. † Chron. l. 4. * De Pontif. l. 3. c. 7. Denique quod , * De verbo Dei. l. 1. c. 10. Itaque non dicimus . * See Nullity of Rom. faith . ch . 2. † Hist. l. 310. b Contra Appionem , lib. 1. c In Annot. adversus Cajet . de libris Maccab. d Enchir. c. de scrip . de num . lib. e In Scholiis ad Epist. 116. Hieronymi . f De Verbo Dei , l. 1. c. 10. In principio . g Loc. Theol. l. 2. c. 11. * Rainoldus in his Praelections concerning the Apocryphal Books , proves this out of their own words , see Praelect . 40 , 41 , 42 , 43. * See Rainoldus & Spanhem de libris Apocryphis ▪ * De Tradit . cap. 9. * Of which see Nulli●y , Append. p. 92. * Sixtus the Fifth , Pope , tells us in his Preface to his Translation of the Bible , that He pickt out of the Cardinals , and almost out of all Nations , a Colledge of most learnned men , who advised him in that work ; They ( saith he ) consulted , and I chose that which was best . And he adds these remarkable words , It is most evident , that there is no surer , nor stronger Argument , than the comparing of ancient and approved Copies . And ( he tells us ) that he carefully corrected it with his own hands . And then the Pope imposeth this Translation upon all the world , to be followed without adding or diminishing , or altering , under pain of Excommunication . And yet ( that you may see how they abuse the peoples credulity to make them believe the Popes Infallibility which themselves do not in earnest believe . ) About two years after comes Clement the Eighth , and he puts forth another Edition and Translation of the Bible , differing from , and contrary to the former Edition in two thousand places , as Doctor James hath proved , by producing the places , as they are in * both Editions . And which is more than all this , in the Preface to his last Bible of Clement the Eighth , we have these words ; Receive , Christian Reader , this old and vulgar Edition of the Scripture corrected with all possible diligence , which , though in respect of humane weakness it be hard to affirm , that it is every way compleat ; yet it is not to be doubted , but it is more pure and corrected than all that hath gone before it . I think this were sufficient evidence ( if there were no other ) how great a cheat it is , that you pretend the Pope to be the infallible Interpreter of Scripture . For here we have one of those infallibles directly contradicting and overturning the other : and besides , instead of that Divine , ( or , after a sort divine ) infallibility , which you ascribe to the Pope , we have here a publick acknowledgment of his imbecillity : nor dare he affirm his work to be perfect , which it must needs have been , if he had been infallibly guided in it ( as you pretend he was ) nor would he have said so , if he had believed his own infallibiliy . * In his Bellum Papale , and defence of it . Notes for div A55374-e12540 a De expresso Dei Verbo . a Enchiridion , cap. 1. b De primatu Romanae Ecclesiae , fol 92. c Eccles. Hierarch . lib. 2. cap. 2. d Ibid. l. 3. c. 3. fol. 103. * Contra haereses , l. 5. c. 6. * In fine Concil . Trident. Reg. 4. * De Sacris vernaculis . * Cap. cum ex injuncta . Extra de haeres . * Triplicatio contra Whitak , c. 17. * See Nullity . † De Pont. l. 4. c. 5. * Roffensis contra Oecolampadiam , c. 2. fol. 3. * De indulgentiis , cap. 4. sub finem . * See Nullity , Chap 5. * Greg. de Valentiâ . a Diligenter nota quod eujusmodi gratia ▪ non dantur . pauperibus , quia non sunt , ideo non possunt consolari . Taxa Cancellariae Apostolicae . Tit. De Matrimoniali . b Nam Indulgentiae fiunt ad relevandam indigentiam Ecclesiae , quae non relevatur per solam voluntatem dandi , sed per datum . De Potestate Papoe , quest . 30. art . 3. c Quantum ad remissionem poenae quae acquiritur per indulgentiam , in tali causa non est inconveniens quod dives , sit melioris conditionis quâm pauper ▪ Ibi enim non dicitur , Venite & emite sine , pecuniâ . Ibid. * Maulin , Reinolds against Hart , and others . * Ses. 22. cap. 9. Can. 2 , 3 , * De Missâ . l. 6. 1. 12. Sextum . * In part . 3. Tho●●e tom . 3. q. 83. dis . 220. art . 1. c. 3. * Cornelius à Lapide in Heb. 7. 28. a Sacrificium verum & reale veram & realem occisionem exigit . Bell. de Missa , l. 1. c. 27. Denique vel in Missa . b Ibid. a Sess. 13. de Eucharist . cap. 4. b Sess. 13. cap. 2. c Luke 11. 27 , 28. a In Canone Missae . b Ep. 7. ad Bohemos . c In Aquin par . 3. qu. 80. art . 8. d Artic. Lovan . 15. a In 3. Thomae qu. 75. art . 1. b Contra Captiv . Babyl . cap. 10. c In 4. Sentent . qu. 6. lit . f. d In 4. Distinc. 11. q 4. art . 14. e In 4. q. 6. f Loc. com . l 3. c. 3. g Tom. 3. in 3. dis . 180. c. 5. h Traitiè p. 793. i De Euchar. l. 3. c. 23. a Artic. Lovan , 13. b Repet . 3. c. 3. c In Tom. 3. dis . 60. sect . 2. d De Eucharistia , l. 1. c. 11. * Bel. de Euch. l. 1. c. 11. a De Euch. l. 1. c. 11. Ad quartam dico . a De Eucharist , l. 3. c. 19. b Bellarm. de Eucharist . l. 3. c. 19. * 1 Place de la messe . a A Popish Book , called , Scripture mistaken , p. 276. a Sum. qu. 80. art . 3. b Can. 39. Glossa in Can. c. 2. De Consecratione . a Bell. de Sacramentis in genere , lib. 1. c. 9. &c. 11. b De invocat . c sanct . lib. 1. c. 18. a Instit. 1. Book . b Beatit . sanctorum . l. 1. c. 8 sect . ult . a Quorum meritis precibusque rogamus . b De Indulgentiis , l. 1. c. 4. c In Martiali , Ann. 1493. d In Canone Missae sect . 80. e In 1 Tim. 2. dis . 8. p. 467. f Concord . Evang. Tom. 1. l. 6. c. 11. g In Amphitheatro honoris . * Against Perkins of Images . a De adoratione l. 3. dis . 3. c. 2. p , 455 , & 458 , a See Dallaeus de Imaginibus . b Lib. 7. Contra Celsum . Arnobius lib. 6. Lactant l. 2. c. 2. Eusebius de preparatione Evangelicâ , lib. 3. & lib. 4. in Praefat. c Epiphanius Haeresi . 97. per totum . a Lib. 9. Instit. mor. c. 6. art 3. b In Thom. part . 3. qu. 25. art . 3. c Tom. 3. Disp. 6. qu. 11. punct . 6. d Enchirid. p. 438. e De Imag. l. 2. c. 21. prop. 1. * Vasquez de adoratione . * Aquila , Symmachus , Theodotion , Sic Iosephus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Philo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a De Adorat . l. 2. des . 4. c. 2. b In Rom. dis . 29. sect . prima● * See Nullity . c. 3. a Bel. de Purgat . l. 1. c. ult . b In consut . Luther . art . 18. c adv . hareses ●… 12. tit . Purgat . f. 258. * In locum . d Bell. de Purg. l. 2. c. 9. ● . Iam. vero . a In Purgatorio animae nec mereri nec peccare possunt , Bel. de Purg. l. 2. cap. 2. Animae in Purgatorio certae sunt de suâ salute , ibid. cap. 4. a De Missâ p. 156. a Concil . Trident. ses . 14. de poenitentia cap. 4. b Ibid. ast; Ibid. a In 3. Thom. qu 90. Art. 1. sect . Omittimus . b In locum . c Relect de poenit . part 6. ast; Scotus & omnes decretorum interpretes inquit Maldon in summâ qu. 18. Art. 4. Cajet . in Ioh. 20. 22. Bell. de poenit . l. 1. c. 4. a Luk : 18. 13. Mat. 9. 2. Act. 2. 38. & 3. 19 , & 22. 16. * De Poeniteutiâ a Act. 9. 4. 2 Cor. 1. 7. Heb. 11. 27. b Act. 9. 16. & 14. 22. 2 Tim. 3 12. c Tho. Est. Iustin in locum . a De Poenit. l. 3. c. 3. b Ia 3. partem Thomae qu. 84. art . 3. b Ia 3. partem Thomae qu. 84. art . 3. a Bell , de Indulg . l. 1. c. 13. * Concil . Trident. de Poenitentia . a Cap. 11. can . 32. b De Iustificat . l. 5. cap. 16. & 17. c De Iustif . l. 5. c 3. d In Explic , Artic , Lovan . Tom. 2 Art. 9. c Ibid. art . 8. d In 1. secundae tom . 2. dis . 214. e De Iustif. l. 5. c. 17. f ubi supr . * Lib. 5. cap. 17. * De Iustif. lib. 5. cap. 19. a Bell. de Iustif. l. 5. c. 5. sect . quart . a Iob 9. 2. b Psal. 130. 2. c 1 Cor. 4. 4. d De Iustiff . l. 1. c. 19. * In manuali de communione sub utraque specie . a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Orig. contrac elsum . lib. 8. b Quoniam in plerisque partibus intra candem civitatem & dioecesin , permixti sunt populi diversarum linguarum , habentes sub una fide varios ritus & mores , districtè praecipimus , ut Pontifices hujusmodi civitatum provideant vires idoneos , qui secundum diversitatem rituum & linguarum divina officia illis celebrent , c. 9. c Ex hac Pauli doctrinâ habetur , quod melius ad aedificationem Ecclesiae est orationes publicas , quae audiente populo dicuntur , dici linguâ communi clericis & populo , quàm dici Latinè . Cajet . in 1 Cor. 14. 
A27392	----	An answer to the dissenters pleas for separation, or, An abridgment of the London cases wherein the substance of those books is digested into one short and plain discourse. Bennet, Thomas, 1673-1728. 1700 Approx. 634 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 168 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A27392 Wing B1888 ESTC R16887 12546401 ocm 12546401 63062 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A27392) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63062) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 954:2) An answer to the dissenters pleas for separation, or, An abridgment of the London cases wherein the substance of those books is digested into one short and plain discourse. Bennet, Thomas, 1673-1728. [8], 326 p. Printed at the University press, for Alexander Bosvile ..., Cambridge : 1700. Reproduction of original in Bodleian Library. Attributed to Thomas Bennet. cf. NUC pre-1956. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Church of England -- Doctrines. Protestantism -- Controversial literature. Dissenters, Religious -- England. 2006-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-10 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-05 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2007-05 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN ANSWER TO THE Dissenters Pleas FOR SEPARATION , OR AN ABRIDGMENT OF THE LONDON CASES ; WHEREIN The Substance of those Books is digested into one Short and Plain Discourse . CAMBRIDGE , Printed at the University Press , for Alexander Bosvile at the Sign of the Dial over against St. Dunstan's Church in Fleet-street . 1700. Imprimatur . GUL. DAWES , Procan . HUMF . GOWER , SS . Theol. pro D na Margareta Prof. GUL. SAYWELL , Coll. Jes . Praefect . JA. JOHNSON , Coll. Sid. S. Magist . THE PREFACE . THAT Collection of Cases and other Discourses , which was lately written by the most Eminent of the Conforming Clergy , to recover Dissenters to the Communion of the Church of England , has met with such an Universal Approbation , that I need not speak any thing in commendation of it . Therefore I shall wave all discourse of that nature , and only give a short account of this Abridgment . The Collection it self being large and dear , it was thought convenient to reduce it to a less Bulk and smaller Price ; that those Persons who have not either Money to buy , or Time to peruse so big a Volume , may reap the benefit of it upon easier terms . This , I presume , will justify my Design , if I have not fail'd in the prosecution of it . I have us'd my best endeavours to avoid obscurity , and all those other faults which are often charg'd upon Abridgments ; and I hope I may venture to say , I have omitted nothing that is material ; tho' the Number of these sheets is not the Sixth part of those that contain the Original . For the Learned Authours of the Collection do frequently glance , and sometimes Discourse largely , upon the same Subject : so that by avoiding Repetitions and blending all the Substance together , I have much lessen'd the Expence of Money and Time. This and some other advantages arise from the Digestion into Chapters ; which cou'd not have been gain'd , if I had made a distinct Abridgment of every single Discourse . I hope , I have fairly Represented the Sense of my Authours ; but if I have mistaken or injur'd it in any particular , I am sorry for it , and do heartily beg Pardon of Them and the Reader . The 11th and 12th Chapters , I am sure , are exact ; for they have receiv'd the A. Bp. of York's own Corrections , for which I am obliged to return his Grace my humblest Thanks . Other parts I have submitted to the Censure of other worthy Persons , to whose Judgment I shall ever pay the greatest Deference : but I have reason to suspect my self for what I have receiv'd no Assistance in ; and therefore I desire the Reader to Correct me , when he finds occasion . I have follow'd not only my own Opinion , but the Directions of several very judicious Persons , in the omission of A. Bishop Tillotson's Discourse of Frequent Communion ; which is wholly foreign to the Design of the Collection . The Quotations in the London Edit . 1698. which I follow , are very badly Printed ; and therefore , if any mistakes of that Nature have crept into this Book , I hope they will not be charg'd upon me . Many of them appear'd false at first View ; and many I knew not what to make of : but some of them I have ventur'd to Correct . God Almighty grant , that this weak endeavour may be of some Service at least towards the Cure of those Divisions , which have endanger'd the Ruin of the Best Church in the World. St. John's Coll. in Cambridge , Octob. 2d . 1699. Tho. Bennet . A Catalogue of those Books , the Substance of which is contain'd in this Abridgment . 1. ARchbishop Tennison's Argument for Union , taken from the true Interest of those Dissenters in England , who profess and call themselves Protestants . 2. Archbishop Sharp's Discourse concerning Conscience . In two parts . 3. Bishop Grove's Persuasive to Communion with the Church of England . 4. Bishop Patrick's Discourse of Profiting by Sermons . 5. Bishop Fowler 's Resolution of this Case of Conscience , whether the Church of England's Symbolizing , so far as it doth , with the Church of Rome , makes it unlawful to hold Communion with the Church of England . 6. His Defence of the Resolution , &c. 7. Bishop Williams's Case of Lay-Communion with the Church of England . 8. His Case of Indifferent things used in the Worship of God. 9. His Vindication of the Case of Indifferent things , &c. 10. Dr. Hooper's Church of England free from the Imputation of Popery . 11. Dr. Sherlock's Resolution of some Cases of Conscience , which respect Church-Communion . 12. His Letter to Anonymus , in Answer to his Three Letters to Dr. Sherlock about Church-Communion . 13. Dr. Hicks's Case of Infant-Baptism . 14. Dr. Freeman's Case of Mixt-Communion . 15. Dr. Hascard's Discourse about Edification . 16. Dr. Calamy's Discourse about a Scrupulous Conscience . 17. His Considerations about the Case of Scandal , or giving offence to Weak Brethren . 18. Dr. Scott's Cases of Conscience resolv'd , concerning the Lawfulness of joining with Forms of Prayer in Public Worship . In two parts . 19. Dr. Claget's Answer to the Dissenters Objections against the Common Prayers , &c. 20. Dr. Resbury's Case of the Cross in Baptism . 21. Dr. Cave's Serious Exhortation , with some Important Advices relating to the late Cases about Conformity . 22. Mr. Evans's Case of Kneeling at the Holy Sacrament . The CONTENTS . THe Introduction , containing an Argument for Union , taken from the true Interest of those Dissenters in England , who profess and call themselves Protestants . pag. 1 CHAP. I. Of the Necessity of living in constant Communion with the Church of England . pag. 15 CHAP. II. The use of Indifferent things in the Worship of God , no objection against our Communion . pag. 31 CHAP. III. Of the Lawfulness and Expediency of Forms of Prayer . pag. 48 CHAP. IV. Objections against our Morning and Evening Service and Litany , Answer'd . pag. 90 CHAP. V. Of Infant-Baptism . pag. 103 CHAP. VI. Objections against our Form of Baptism , and particularly that of the Sign of the Cross , Answer'd . pag. 126 CHAP. VII . Objections against our Communion-Office , and particularly that of Kneeling at the Sacrament , Answer'd . pag. 135 CHAP. VIII . The Objection of our Symbolizing or Agreeing with the Church of Rome , Answer'd . pag. 171 CHAP. IX . The Objection of Mixt-Communion Answer'd . pag. 194 CHAP. X. The Pretences of Purer Ordinances , and Better Edification among the Dissenters , Answer'd . pag. 210 CHAP. XI . The Pretence of it's being against one's Conscience to join with the Church of England , Answer'd . pag. 228 CHAP. XII . The Pretence of a doubting Conscience Answer'd . pag. 249 CHAP. XIII . The Pretence of a scrupulous Conscience Answer'd . pag. 277 CHAP. XIV . The Pretence of Scandal , or giving Offence to Weak Brethren , Answer'd . pag. 292 The Conclusion , containing an earnest Persuasive to Communion with the Establish'd Church of England . pag. 309 THE INTRODUCTION , Containing An ARGUMENT for UNION , Taken from the true Interest of those Dissenters in ENGLAND , who Profess and call themselves PROTESTANTS . 'T IS plain , that the ready way to overthrow a Church , is first to divide it ; and that our Dissentions are Divisions properly so call'd . How mortal these breaches may at last prove , any man may easily foretell ; and therefore 't is the business of every good man to dissuade from them . One way of doing this is to shew Dissenters calmly and plainly , that their ends are not likely to be obtain'd ; and that by the means they use , they will bring upon themselves those very evils , which they fear , and hope to remove . This Argument I design to handle by way of Introduction to the following Discourse ; and in the Management of it I intend to shew , First what those ends are , which are propos'd by the Wiser and better Dissenters ; and Secondly , that the ends which they propose , can never be procur'd by the dissettlement of the Church of England . The Dissenters ends are two ; First , the establishing of themselves , either as a National Church or as several distinct Churches ; Secondly and chiefly , the farther advancement of the Reform'd Religion , by the removal of Popery and making the Protestant Religion more pure and perfect , than it is or can be under the present constitution of the Church of England . First then , as for the establishing of themselves as a National Church , 't is impossible that all of them shou'd be United . For what Communion can the Presbyterians have with Arians , Socinians , Anabaptists , Fifth-Monarchy-Men , Sensual Millenaries , Behmenists , Familists , Seekers , Antinomians , Ranters , Sabbatarians , Quakers , Muggletonians , Sweet-Singers ? Such a medly of Religions cannot frame amongst them any common Scheme , in which their assents can be United . Nor can any Prevalent Party hope to establish themselves as a National Church ; because they want Episcopacy , which hath obtain'd in England since it's first Conversion , and is so agreeable to the Scheme of the Monarchy , and will not easily be exchang'd for a newer model by the general consent of the English , who are naturally tenacious of their ancient Customs . Again , all the Parties amongst us have of late declar'd for mutual forbearance ; and therefore they cannot be consistent with themselves , if they frame such a National Constitution , by which any man who dissents from it shall be otherwise dealt with , than by personal conference ; which also he must have liberty not to admit , if he be persuaded it is not fit or safe for him . Now such a Body without any other Nerves for its Strength and Motion ; for the encouragement of those who are Members of it , and the discouragement of those who refuse its Communion , will not long hold together ; nor hath it means in it sufficient for the ends to which it is design'd . And indeed by this means the Spiritual Power of Excommunication will be rendred of none effect . For what Punishment , what Shame , what Check will it be to cross and perverse men ; if being shut out of the National Church , they may with open arms and with an applause due to real Converts , be receiv'd into this or the other particular Congregation , as it best suits with their good liking ? Some persons Think , that since they gathered Churches out of Churches , there are not many true and proper Presbyterians in England ; and if this be true , Independency is the prevalent side : but I know not how a National Church can be made up of separate Independent Churches . For each Independent Congregation is a Church by its self , and has besides the general Covenant of Baptism , a particular Church-Covenant ; and therefore 't is difficult to imagine , how all of them can be United into one intire Society . But be it suppos'd , that the Presbyterians are the most Numerous and prevalent Party ; yet experience shews how hard a work it is for all of them to form themselves into a Church of England . In the late times of public disquiet , tho' they had great power and fair opportunities , and seem'd nigh the gaining of their point , yet they widely miss'd of it . There were in the Assembly of Divines , some for an Independent , others for an Erastian Interest . (a) There were a Party in the Nation , who were then call'd Dissenting Brethren ; who hated the Directory , and Printed a Remonstrance against Presbytery , and reproach'd the Presbyterians in the same Phrases , which they had us'd against the Church-Liturgy . (b) Some Presbyterians did openly confess that their hopes were not answer'd , and that instead of a Reformation they had a Deformation in Religion . Those Independents , who adher'd to that part of the House which joyn'd with the Army , prevail'd for a season ; but they also were disturbed by the Lilburnists , Levellers , and Agitators . (c) Then Wynstanly publish'd the Principles of Quakerism , and Enthusiasm brake forth . Joseph Salmon a Member of the Army publish'd his Blasphemies and defended his Immoralities ; and Printed a Book in which he set forth himself as the Christ of God. Cromwel favour'd Enthusiasm , and together with Six Souldiers Preach'd and Pray'd at Whitehall ; and confess'd to a person of condition ( from whom I receiv'd it , as did others yet living ) that he Pray'd according to extraordinary impulse ; and that not feeling such impulse ( which he call'd supernatural ) he did forbear to Pray , oftentimes for several days together . At last he and his House of Commons were publicly (d) disturb'd by Quakers , bespatter'd in their books , his Preachers interrupted by them in his own Chappel before his face ; and himself conspir'd against by those who call'd themselves the free and well affected People of England . Other Memorials might be produc'd relating to the hopeful Rise , mighty progress and equal declension of the Presbyterian Party : but in short , the longer the Church of England was dissetled , the greater daily grew the Confusion ; so that those very distractions prepar'd the Way for the Restitution of the King and the Church . Now if Dissenters cou'd not settle themselves when they had such fair opportunities , much less can they do it now ; because , First the platform of Discipline so much applauded and contended for in the Reigns of Q. Elizabeth and K. James , has been partly tried , and lost some of that Reverence which several had for it . Secondly , there is not now such an Union amongst Dissenters as appear'd at the beginning of the late Troubles . Thirdly , those who then favour'd the Discipline , do now incline to Independency and plead for Toleration . Fourthly , the sincere Zeal and Power of many Pious Men of Quality , who favour'd the Discipline in the simplicity of their hearts , could not then settle it ; much less will it now succeed , since these Men have seen such Revolutions , and discover'd the Vile interests of many under pretence of Pure Religion . These have seen their errour , and will not be a second time engaged . Lastly , by reason of the gross Hypocrisies , numberless Parties and Opinions , Irreligious Books and Laxation of Discipline in those Wars , Atheism has much increas'd ; and they say that some undisguised Sceptics and Atheists have , since the King's return , been much us'd in the Cause of our Dissenters ; and surely such hands cannot do , what well meaning zeal could not effect . Nor can they settle themselves as several distinct Parties by a general Toleration . For First , some Dissenters believe some of the Parties to be incapable of forbearance , as maintaining Principles destructive of Christian Faith and Piety . This Opinion they still have of Antinomians , Quakers and Muggletonians ; and they formerly declaim'd against the Toleration of Erastians and Independents . (e) Nay many Ministers declar'd a Toleration to be an appointing a City of Refuge in Mens Consciences for the Devil to fly to — a Toleration of Soul-murther , the greatest murther of all others , &c. Secondly , there is no firmness in this Union ; for the Union that lasteth , is that of the Concord of Members in an Uniform Body . Thirdly , Parties cannot be kept equal in number and interest , but one will always prevail and be favour'd as the Religion of the State. And it is natural for the strongest to attempt to subdue all the rest ; so that they will not be at peace , but in perpetual discord . Some indeed think , this inclination to the swallowing up of all other Parties is to be found almost only in the Romish Church : But there is something of it to be discerned ( I will not say in all Churches , for our own suffered Bonner himself to live , yet ) in all Factions and Parties ; tho' the inequality of Power makes it not seem to be alike in all of them . Parties , who are not ( otherwise than in shew ) concern'd for Religion , will perpetually covet after Power ; and Parties that are conscientious in their way , will do the same . For they withdraw from others , because they think Communion with them to be unlawful ; and if they think those of another way ( without Repentance ) to be lost eternally , Charity will urge them to reduce them ; and they will think , that suffering them to wander declares them to be contented with their condition . Besides , experience shews that where there is Power there is little forbearance ; and the same men , as their conditions alter , speak of Mercy or Justice . Thus did the (f) Donatists of old , and the (g) Heads of the Discipline in the late Times . Those that remov'd to New England for Liberty of Conscience , when they had gotten footing there , refus'd Indulgence to Anabaptists and Quakers , and use them to this day with great severity . The (h) Commons in 47 gave Indulgence to all , but those that us'd the Common Prayer . The Dutch suffer none to speak against those Doctrines , which the State hath Authoriz'd ; and the Remonstrant Party contend for Superiority , whenever they have any encouragement . The Popish Orders mortally hate , and ( were they not restrain'd ) wou'd soon devour one another . And Gittichius his behaviour towards (i) Ruarus a Socinian of better temper , shews the spirit of the Socinians , those great asserters of Liberty in Religion . The Quakers themselves , when form'd into a society , began to Excommunicate and Domineer ; and G. Fox (k) declar'd , he never lik'd the word Liberty of Conscience , and wou'd have no Liberty given to Presbyterians , Papists , Independents and Baptists . I proceed now to the Second and Chief end of the Dissenters , the removal of Popery and perfecting the Protestant Religion . As for the removal of Popery , 't is plain that the ruin of our Church , called by Diodati the Eye of the Reform'd Churches , will rather advantage it both at home and abroad . For she being more like the Primitive Pattern than some others of the Reformation , can better answer the Papists Objections , than those that are cramp'd in a few points ; and therefore if Dissentions ruin her , Popery will the sooner spread over Foreign Reform'd Countries . And since the Romanists are so powerful , diligent and cunning ; have so much Learning and interest ; and pretend to antiquity , miracles , &c. nothing can secure us from them at home , but the Christian constitution and strong nature of the Primitive , Learned , Pure , Loyal and Pious Church of England ; which is a National Body already form'd , that is able to detect the Forgeries of Rome , and hath not given advantage to her by running from her into any extreme . Monsieur Daille , who was not likely to be partial in this matter , and was at that time engaged in a Controversy with one of our Divines , (l) says , As to the Church of England , purg'd from Foreign wicked superstitious Worships and Errours , either impious or dangerous , by the rule of the Divine Scriptures , approv'd by so many and such illustrious Martyrs , abounding with Piety towards God and Charity towards Men , and with most frequent examples of good works , flourishing with an increase of most Learned and wise Men from the beginning of the Reformation to this time ; I have always had it in just esteem , and till I die I shall continue in the same due veneration of it . And indeed it is strange , that any who know other Churches and States , shou'd be displeas'd at ours , which so much excels them . Now is it probable , that such a Church shou'd have less strength in it for the resisting of Popery , than a number of divided Parties , the best of which is not so Primitive , Learned , United , Numerous or Legal ; and is but of yesterday ? These Parties have scarce any form'd way of keeping out Popery ; for what hinders a crafty Jesuit from gathering and modelling a particular Congregation ? And what a gap do they leave open for Seducers , who take away all legal Tests , and admit strangers to officiate upon bare pretence of spiritual illumination ! The Romanists have more powerful ways of drawing men from the Dissenting Parties , than from the Church of England . For Men separate ( too frequently ) thro' weakness of imagination , for which the Church of Rome has variety of gratifications . They will offer strictnesses to the severe , and mental Prayer to those who contemn or scruple Forms . They have Mystical Phrases for such , who think they have a new notion when they darken understanding with words ; and accordingly the third part of a very mystical Book , written by Father Benet a Capuchin , was reprinted in London in 46 , with a (m) new Title and without the Authour's Name , and it pass'd amongst some of the Parties for a Book of very sublime Evangelical Truths . They use much gesture and great shew of Zeal in Preaching . They have rough cords and mean garments , bare feet and many other great shews of Self-denial . They have Processions and other Rites to humour the soppishness of others . But our Church is sufficient for this encounter . She designs to make Men good by making them first judicious ; but some others desire to bring them to their side by catching of their imaginations ; and so some new device shall , in time , bring them over to a new Party . Dissention it self amongst Protestants weakens their interest ; and that which weakens one side strengthens another . Many that are wearied with endless wrangling , are too apt for quiet sake to run to infallibility . Some Dissenters prepare the way for Popery by running into another extreme to avoid it . By decrying Episcopacy , Liturgy , Festivals , &c. as Popish , they condemn that as Popish which is decent and Christian , and so bring Popery into reputation . For men will be apt to say , if such good things be Popish , surely that which is Popish , is also Primitive and Evangelical . What we have examin'd is good , and probably the rest may be of the same kind . It appears also from the History of our late Wars , that Popery gains ground by the ruin of our Church . For it made such a progress in those times , that the Dissenters charge the Jesuits with the King's murther ; thereby tacitly owning , that they had so great a power over some of them , as to make them their instruments in it . 'T is evident to any man that Popery was not then rooted out ; (n) 't is notorious , that many Priests and other Papists fought and acted for the Parliament against the King ; Nay , in 49 , there was a design to (o) settle the Popish Discipline in England and Scotland . The Papists generally sheltred themselves under the Vizor of (p) Independency . A College of Jesuits was settled at (q) Come in 52 ; and 155 were reconciled to Rome that year· Cromwel (r) said , that he had some proof that Jesuits had been found amongst the Discontented Parties ; and Dr. Bayly the Papist (ſ) courted him as the hopes of Rome . One of his Physicians (t) saith , he was Treating with the Papists for Toleration , but brake off , because they came not up to his Price , and because he fear'd it would be offensive . We are (u) told also that an agreement was made in 49 even with Owen Oneal that bloody Romanist ; and that he in pursuance of the Interest of the State , rais'd the Siege of Londonderry . A great door was open'd to Romish Emissaries , when the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were by public order taken away ; and the Doctrine of the unlawfulness of an Oath , reviv'd in those days by (w) Williams , Gorton , &c. help'd equivocating Papists to an Evasion ; as I fear it may the Quakers at this day . It was the Church of England that kept out Popery in those times . The patient sufferings of her Members prov'd that they were not Popish or earthly-minded ; and the Writings of Laud , Chillingworth , Bramhal , Cosins , Hammond , &c. kept men stedfast in the Protestant Religion . To this we may add , that the Papists themselves think their Cause is promoted by our Divisions , as appears from 2 Jesuits , viz. Campanella in his discourse of the Spanish Mon. cap. 25. p. 157. Printed at Lond. in English in 54. and Contzen's Polit. Lib. 2. Cap. 18. Sect. 9. And they act accordingly ; for they widen our breaches that themselves may enter , and hope that we shall be dissolv'd at last by our distempers . They expose Protestants as a Disunited People ; and ask men how they can in prudence join with those , who are at Variance among themselves ? As for the design of advancing the Protestant Religion to greater Purity and Perfection by dissetling the Church , it is not likely to be effected for six reasons . First , the dissetling that which is well setled , corrupteth Religion by removing Charity , which is the Spirit of it . It lets men loose that cannot govern themselves ; it moves men to Atheism , Idolatry and contempt of the Church , and confirms them in sin . It exposes the Church for a prey to the Enemy , as it did formerly in Africa and Egypt . Those that dissent from a National Church , generally move for alterations in it , when there is a ferment in the State ; and in such seasons a Church may be pull'd in sunder , but there is not temper enough to set it together to advantage . State-dissenters generally begin Revolutions with the pretence of Reforming Religion ; and well-meaning Dissenters ( when in such hands ) can establish nothing , but what pleases their secular Leaders . A change in the Church naturally produces some change in the State ; and who can secure the event for the better ? None can foresee all the ill consequences of disturbances . When the vessel is stirr'd , the lees come up ; and Religion is made less pure by commotions . Politicians promise fair , and use conscientious men to serve a turn ; but afterwards they take other measures . Men may intend well , but by using the illegal Arm , they frequently render that which was well setled , much worse by their unhinging of it . Secondly , in the Times of Vsurpation , which began with pretence of a more Pure Religion , our Dissentions caus'd great Corruptions both in Faith and Manners . The War was Preach'd up as the Christian Cause ; and many believ'd that God wou'd not lay the greatest villanies to the charge of an elect person . The instances of their extravagancies are endless ; and the Lords and Commons , as well as the Ministers , were (u) highly sensible of them . Thirdly , if by Purity of Religion be meant such Doctrine , Discipline and Life , as the Gospel teaches , and a removal of human inventions ; that Purity is in our Church already : and as for her Injunctions , they are ( like those of the Primitive Church ) Rules of Ecclesiastical Wisdom in pursuance of the general Canons in Holy Writ . But if by Purity of Religion be meant a fewness of parts ; as the Quakers believe their way is purer , because they have taken away Sacraments and outward Forms ; by the same reason the Papists may say , that their Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is more pure than that of the Protestants , because they have taken the Cup from it . But it must be consider'd , that that which makes a Pure Church , is like that which makes a pure Medicine ; not the fewness of the ingredients , but the goodness of them , how many soever they be , and the aptness of them for the procuring of health . Therefore our Church being already Pure , the ruin of it will not tend to the purity and advancement of the Protestant Religion . Fourthly , the establishing of contrary parties by a Toleration is not the way to perfect Religion , any more than the suffering of divers Errours wou'd be the means of reforming them . One principle only can be true ; and a mixture of Sacred and Profane is the greatest impurity . Fifthly , Many Dissenters are not like to improve Christianity , because they lay aside the Rules of discretion , and rely not on God's assistance in the use of good means ; but depend wholly upon immediate illumination without the aids of prudence . Sixthly , Our Church has already better means to promote Pure Religion , than any the Dissenters have propos'd . Any Church may be improv'd in small matters ; but 't were very imprudent to change the present model for any that has yet been offer'd . We have all the necessaries to Faith and Godliness ; Primitive discipline , decency and order are preserved ; We have as many truly pious Members as any Nation under Heaven , and such excellent Writers and Preachers as God ought to be prais'd for : whereas amongst the Parties the folly and weakness of Preachers is delivered solemnly as the dictate of God's Holy Spirit . I may add also , that the Dissenters Doctrine of God's secret Decrees , their Ordination by Presbyters without a Bishop , their long unstudy'd effusions , their leaving the Creed out of the Directory for public Worship , their sitting at the Lord's Supper ( and that sometimes with the Hat on ) their alteration of the Form of giving the holy Elements , and their forbidding the observation of Festivals , were not so conducive to the edifying of the Body of Christ , as those things which were in the late Times illegally remov'd by them . It is easy enough to alter a Constitution ; but 't is extreme difficult to make a true and lasting improvement . To conclude , since it appears that Dissenters are not like to obtain their ends of establishing themselves , of rooting out Popery , and promoting Pure Religion , by overthrowing the Church of England ; therefore they ought both in Prudence and Charity to endeavour after Union with it . CHAP. I. Of the Necessity of living in constant Communion with the Establish'd Church of England . THAT I may discourse with all possible clearness , it will be necessary before I proceed , to explain a few things . 1. What is meant by a Christian Church . 2. What Church-Communion is . 3. What is meant by Fixt Communion and by Occasinal Communion . I. Then a Church is a Body or Society of Men separated from the rest of the World , and united to God and to themselves by a Divine Covenant . It is a Body or Society in opposition to particular Men and to a confus'd multitude . For tho' it do's consist of particular men , yet those men are consider'd not in a private capacity , but as united into a regular Society . For God is not the Authour of confusion . And if the meanest Societies cannot subsist without order , much less the Church of God , which is a Society instituted for the most spiritual and supernatural ends . The Jewish Church had exact order ; and the Christian Church with respect to the Union and Order of it's parts is not only call'd a Body , but a spiritual building , Holy Temple , and the House of God. But then the Church is One body in opposition to many bodies . The Jewish Church was but One , and therefore the Christian , which is grafted into the Jewish , is but One. The Church is call'd the Temple of God , and the Temple was but One by the command of God. Christ also tells us , that there should be but one fold under one shepherd , Joh. 10.16 . And indeed it is extremely absurd to say , that the Christian Church , which has the same Foundation , the same Faith , the same Promises , the same Priviledges ; should be divided into separate Bodies of the same kind . For certainly where everything is common , there is One Community . 'T is true , distinct men , tho' of the same common nature , have distinct Essences , and this makes them distinct persons ; but where the very essence of a Body or Society consists in having all things common , there can be but one Body . And therefore if one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism , one God and Father of all , be common to the whole Christian Church ; and if no Christian has any peculiar privileges ; then there is but one Church . I add , that the Church is a Body or Society of Men separated from the rest of the World ; upon which account Christians are call'd the Chosen or Elect People of God , having a peculiar Faith , Laws , Rites , &c. which are not common to the whole World. It is also a Society of Men united to God and to themselves by a Divine Covenant . It is united to God , because it is a Religious Society ; and the Men are united to themselves , because they are one Society . But the chief thing to be observ'd is , that the Union is made by a Divine Covenant . Thus God made a Covenant with Abraham , of which Circumcision was the Seal ; and the Christian Church is nothing else , but such a Society of Men , as are in Covenant with God thro' Christ . I suppose all Men will grant , that God only can make a Church ; and that the only visible way he has of forming a Church is by granting a Church-Covenant , which is the Divine Charter whereon the Church is founded ; and by authorizing some persons to receive others into this Covenant by such a form of admission as he shall institute , which form under the Gospel is Baptism . So that to be taken into Covenant with God , and to be receiv'd into the Church is the same thing ; and he is no Member of the Church , who is not visibly admitted into God's Covenant . From what has been said it plainly follows , 1. That a Covenant-State and a Church-State are the same thing . 2. That every profest Christian , who is receiv'd into Covenant , as such , is a Church-Member . 3. That nothing else is necessary to make us Members of the Christian Church , but only Baptism , which gives us right to all the privileges of the Covenant . 4. That no Church-State can depend upon human Contracts and Covenants , and therefore the Independent Church-Covenant between Pastor and People is no part of the Christian Church-Covenant ; because it is no part of the Baptismal vow , which is one and the same for all Mankind , and the only Covenant which Christ has made . And why then do the Independents exact such a Covenant of Baptiz'd persons , before they admit them to their Communion ? 5. That it is absurd to gather Churches out of Churches , which already consist of Baptiz'd persons . For there is but one Church , which is founded upon a Divine Covenant , and this we are made Members of by Baptism ; if therefore an Independent Church-Covenant be necessary , then the Baptismal Covenant is of no value , till it be confirm'd by entring into a particular Church-Covenant . 6. That if the Church be founded on one Covenant , then the Church is but one . For those that have an interest in the same Covenant are Members of the same Church ; and tho' the Universal Church , for Man's conveniency , be divided into several parts or Congregations , yet it cannot be divided into two or more Churches . So that two Churches which are not Members of each other , cannot partake in the same Covenant , but the divider forfeits his interest in it . A Prince indeed may grant the same Charter to several Corporations ; but if he confine his Charter to the Members of one Corporation , those who separate from the Corporation , forfeit their interest in the Charter . Thus has God granted a Charter or Covenant , and declares that by this one Covenant he Unites all Christians into one Church , into which we are admitted by Baptism ; and therefore if we separate from this one Church , we forfeit our interest in it . God has not made a particular Covenant with the Church of Geneva , France , or England , but with the one Catholic Church ; and therefore if we do not live in unity with the Catholic Church , we have no right to the blessings promis'd to it . II. By Church-Communion I mean Church-Society . To be in Communion with the Church , is to be a Member of it . And this is call'd Communion , because all Church-members have a common right to Church-privileges , and a common obligation to the duties of Church-Members . 'T is true , this word Communion is commonly us'd to signify Praying , hearing and receiving the Sacrament together ; but strictly speaking those Offices are not Communion , but an exercise of Communion . Church-Communion is Church-Union ; for as a member must be united to the Body , before it can perform the natural action of a member : so a man must be in Communion with the Church , before he has a right to Pray , &c. And therefore , tho' a man that is not in Union or Communion with the Church , shou'd perform those Offices ; yet the performance of them do's not make him a Member of the Church , but an Intruder . Such Offices are acts of Communion , if perform'd by Church-Members ; but not otherwise . So that to be in communion with the Church is to be a Member of it ; and by being a Member a man has a right to the blessings promis'd to it , and an obligation to perform the Offices of Church-Society , viz. obedience to the Churches authority , joining in Prayers , &c. and he that acts otherwise , renounces his Communion with it . From what has been said I observe , 1. That Church-Communion principally respects not a particular , but the Universal Church , which is but one all the World over . For Membership may extend to the remotest parts of the World , if the body , whereof we are Members , reach so far : and Baptism makes us members of the Universal Church , because it admits us into the Covenant , which God made with the Universal Church . 2. That every act of Christian Communion , such as praying , &c. is an act of Communion with the whole Catholic Church , tho' it must be perform'd in a particular Congregation , because all Christians cannot meet in one place . Thus do we as Fellow-Members Pray to God the Common Father of Christians , in the Name of Christ the Common Saviour of Christians , for the same Common blessings , for our selves and all other Christians . Thus also the Supper of the Lord is not a private Supper , but the Common Feast of Christians , and an act of Catholic Communion . 3. That the only reason , why I am bound to live in Communion with any particular Church , is because I am a Member of the whole Christian Church . For I must live in Communion with the whole Christian Church ; and this cannot be done without actual Communion with some part of it . So that I have nothing else to do but to consider , whether that part of the Catholic Church wherein I live , be so sound that I may lawfully live in Communion with it ; and if it be , I am bound to do so under peril of Schism from the Catholic Church . 4. That those Churches which are not Members of each other , are separate Churches ; because the Catholic Church being but one , all particular Churches ought to be Members of it . To make this plain , I shall lay down some few Rules , whereby we may certainly know what Churches are in Communion with each other , and which are Schismatical Conventicles . 1. There must be but one Church in one place ; because private Christians ought to join with those Christians with whom they live ; and to withdraw our selves from ordinary Communion with the Church in which we live into separate Societies , is to renounce its Communion ; and when there is not a necessary cause for it , is a Schismatical separation . Every particular Church must have its limits , as every Member in the Body has its proper place : but when there is one Church within the bowels of another , it is a notorious Schism . This is the case of our Dissenters , who refuse to worship God in the same assemblies with us . Distinct Churches at a distance may be of the same Communion : but distinct Churches in the same place can never be of the same Communion ; for then they wou'd naturally unite . So that all separation from a Church wherein we live , unless there be necessary reasons for it , is Schism . 'T is true , a Nation may permit those Foreigners that are among them , to model their Congregations according to the Rules of those Churches , to which they originally belong ; and that without any danger of Schism . For a bare variety of Ceremonies makes no Schism between Churches , while they live in Communion with each other . Now every particular National Church has Authority over her own Members to prescribe the rules of Worship : but as she does not impose upon other Churches , at a distance ; so she may allow the same liberty to the Members of such Foreign Churches , when they live within her jurisdiction . For tho' all true Churches are Members of each other , yet each Church has a peculiar jurisdiction ; and therefore for the Church of England to allow Foreigners to observe their own Rules , is not to allow separate Communions , but to leave them to the Goverment of that Church , to which they belong . So that distinct Congregations of Foreigners , who own the Communion of our Church , tho' they observe the customs of their own , are not Schismatical , as the separate Conventicles of our Dissenters are . 2. Those are separate Churches , which divide from the Communion of any Church , from any dislike of its Doctrine , Goverment or Worship . For in this case they leave the Church , because they think it unsafe to continue one body with it . Two Churches may be in Communion with each other , and yet not actually Communicate together , because distance of place will not permit it : but it is impossible that two Churches , which renounce each others Communion , or at least withdraw ordinary Communion from each other from a profess'd dislike , shou'd still continue in Communion with each other . Because they are opposite Societies , sounded upon contrary Principles , and acting by contrary Rules , and pursuing contrary ends , to the ruin and subversion of each other . 3. Those are separate Churches which do not own each others Members as their own . The Christian Church is but one Houshold and Family and whoever makes two Families of it , is a Schismatic . If Christians in the same Kingdom hold separate Assemblies under distinct kinds of Goverment and different Governours , and condemn each others constitution and modes of Worship , and endeavour to draw away Members from each other ; they cannot be thought to be one Church . And indeed we may as well say , that several sorts of Goverment in the same Nation , with distinct Governours , distinct Subjects and distinct Laws , that are always at Enmity and War with each other , are but one Kingdom ; as we may say , that such Congregations are but one Church . III. I am to explain what is meant by Fixt and by Occasional Communion . By fixt Communion the Dissenters understand an actual and constant Communicating with some one particular Church , as fixt Members of it . By occasional Communion they mean praying , hearing and receiving the Sacrament at some other Church ( of which they do not own themselves to be Members ) as occasion serves ; that is , either to gratify their own curiosity , or to serve some secular end , or to avoid the imputation of Schism . Now fixt Communion is the only true notion of Communion , for occasional Communion do's not deserve the name of Communion . For I have prov'd that he , who is not a Member , cannot perform an act of Communion ; and therefore it is as plain a contradiction to talk of an occasional act of Communion , as of an Occasional Membership . Since every act of Communion is an act of Communion with every sound part of the Catholic Church , therefore the exercise of Christian Communion is equally fix't and constant , or equally occasional with the whole Catholic Church . 'T is true , in one sence we may be Members of a particular Church , that is , we may live under the Goverment of a particular Bishop in a particular National Church ; but yet every act of Communion perform'd in this particular Church is an act of Communion with every sound part of the Catholic Church . So that wherever I Communicate , whether in that Church in which I usually live , or in any other particular Church , where I am accidentally present , my Communion is of the same nature . Now our ordinary Communion with those Churches where our constant abode is , may be call'd fix't Communion ; and our Communion with those Churches where we are accidentally present , may be call'd occasional Communion ; and all this may be done without Schism , because all these Churches are Members of each other : but we cannot lawfully join sometimes with the establish'd Church and sometimes with a separate Congregation ; because the case is vastly different . For the establish'd Church and the Dissenters Congregations are not Members of each other , but separate Churches . Now 't is impossible for any man to be a Member of two separate Churches ; and whatever acts of worship we join in with other Churches , of which we are no Members , they are not properly acts of Communion . Having thus explain'd the Three foregoing particulars , I proceed to the main business , which was to shew , that it is the indispensable duty of all English men to live in constant Communion with the establish'd Church of England . This I shall do by shewing , First , That Communion with some Church or other is a necessary duty . Secondly , That constant Communion with that Church , with which occasional Communion is lawful , is a necessary duty ; from whence I shall make it appear , Thirdly , That it is necessary to continue in constant Communion with the establish'd Church of England . I. Then , it is plain , that Communion with some Church or other is a necessary Duty . Because to be in Communion is to be a Member of Christ ; and he that is a Member , has a right to the Privileges and an obligation to the duties of a Member ; and 't is certain that Communion in Prayers , &c. is none of the least Privileges of Christianity , and that 't is the duty of a Member to Communicate in Religious Offices . But to put the matter out of all doubt , I shall offer Five things , to prove that external and actual Communion is a necessary duty . 1. Baptism makes us Members of the visible Church of Christ ; but there can be no visible Church without visible Communion , and therefore every visible Member is bound to visible Communion , when it may be had . 2. This is Essential to the notion of a Church , as it is a Society of Christians . For since all Societies are instituted for the sake of some common Duties and Offices , therefore some duties and offices must be perform'd by the Society of Christians ; especially since the Church consists of different Offices and Officers , as Pastors , &c. Eph. 4.11 . which are of no use , if private Christians are not bound to maintain Communion with them in all Religious Offices . 3. The nature of Christian worship obliges us to Church-Communion . For we are bound to worship God according to Christ's institution , that is , by the hands of the Ministry authoriz'd for that purpose , Acts 2.42 . and therefore tho' the private Prayers of Church-members are acceptable , yet none but public Prayers offer'd up by the Ministers are properly the Prayers of the Church and acts of Church-Communion . Nay the Lord's Supper , which is the principal part of God's worship , is a Common Supper or Communion-Feast , and cannot possibly be celebrated but in actual Communion . 4. The exercise of Church-Authority , which consists in admitting men to , or excluding them from the external acts of Communion , supposes that Church-members are obliged to visible Communion . 5. If Separation from Religious Assemblies be to break Communion , as it plainly appears to be from 2 Cor. 6.17 . 1 Joh. 2.19 . Heb. 10.25 . then to live in Communion with the Church , requires our actual Communicating with the Church in all Religious duties . Accordingly to have Communion with any , is to partake with them in their Religious Mysteries , 1 Cor. 10.20 , 21. so that tho' we must first be in a state of Communion , before we have a right to Communicate ; yet we cannot preserve our Church-state without actual Communion . And a right to Communicate without actual Communion , which is an exercise of that right , is worth nothing ; because all the blessings of the Gospel are convey'd to us by actual Communion . This is sufficient to prove the necessity of actual Communion with the Church , when it may be had ; for when it can't be had , we are not obliged to it . But then the greater difficulty is , whether it be lawful to suspend Communion with all , because the Church is divided into Parties . Now a man may as well be of no Religion , because there are different Opinions in Religion ; as Communicate with no Church , because the Church is divided into Parties . For 't is possible to know which is a true and sound part of the Catholic Church ; and when we know that , we are bound to maintain Communion with it . Indeed if Divisions excuse from actual Communion with the Church , then Church-Communion never was or can be a duty ; for there were Divisions even in the Apostles times . But the rule is plain ; for we are bound to Communicate with the Establish'd Church , if it may be done without sin . The advantage lies on the side of Authority , and to separate from such a Church is both disobedience and Schism . But what is meant by Suspending Communion ? These men will not say that it is lawful never to worship God in any public Assemblies during the divisions in the Church ; and therefore they mean , that in case of such Divisions they may refuse to enter themselves fixt and settled Members of any Church , but Communicate occasionally with them all . But I have already shewn how absurd this distinction of fixt and occasional Communion is ; and that whoever is a Member of the Church is a fixt and not an occasional Member ; and that every act of Communion is an act of fixt Communion . So that when men Communicate occasionally , as they speak , with all the different Parties of Christians in a divided Church , they either Communicate with none or with all of them . If with none , then they maintain Communion with no Church , which I have prov'd it to be their duty to do : but if they Communicate with all , then they are Members of separate and opposite Parties ; that is , they are contrary to themselves , and on one side or other are certain to be Schismatics . II. I am now to shew in the 2d . place , That Constant Communion is a necessary duty , where occasional Communion is lawful . Every true Christian is in Communion with the whole Christian Church , that is , is a Member of the whole Church ; and therefore he must constantly perform the acts of Communion in that part of the Church in which he lives . So that he cannot without sin Communicate only occasionally with that Church , with which he may and ought to Communicate constantly , as being constantly present there . There cannot be two distinct Churches in the same place , one for constant , and another for occasional Communion , without Schism ; and therefore where my constant abode is , there my constant Communion must be , if there be a true and sincere part of the Catholic Church in that place . For it is not lawful to Communicate with two distinct and separate Churches in the same place , as for instance , sometimes with the Church of England , sometimes with the Presbyterians ; because this is directly contrary to all the principles of Church-Communion . For to be in Communion with the Church is to be a Member of it ; and to be a Member of two separate and opposite Churches , is to be as contrary to our selves as those separate Churches are to each other ; and whoever Communicates with both those Churches , on one side or other Communicates in a Schism . So that if Schism be a very great sin , and that which will damn us as soon as Adultery or Murther , then it must needs be unlawful and dangerous to Communicate with Schismatics . Nothing less than sinful terms of Communion can justifie our separation from the establish'd Church wherein we live ; for otherwise there cou'd be no end of Divisions , but men might new model Churches as often as their fancies alter . That is a sound and Orthodox part of the Catholic Church , which has nothing sinful in its Communion ; otherwise no Church can be sound and Orthodox . Now that Man that separates from such a sound part of the Church , separates from the whole Church , because the Communion of the Church is but one . Since therefore those who Communicate occasionally with the establish'd Church , do thereby own that there are no sinful terms of Communion with it ; and since he who separates from that establish'd Church where there are no sinful terms of Communion , is guilty of Schism ; therefore a Man is obliged to join constantly with that Church , with which he owns it lawful to Communicate occasionally . III. Now if these things be true , which I have so plainly prov'd , then it will easily be made appear in the Third place , that it is necessary to continue in constant Communion with the establish'd Church of England . For since a Man is obliged to join constantly with that Church , with which he owns it lawful to join occasionally ; therefore it is plain , that all English Men are obliged to join constantly with the establish'd Church of England , because they may lawfully Communicate with it Occasionally . But if any Man say that 't is not lawful to Communicate occasionally with the establish'd Church of England , I doubt not to make it appear in the following discourse , that he is greatly mistaken . 'T is not my present business to prove , that the Pastors of Dissenting Congregations ought to subscribe to the Articles , &c. For tho' that matter may be easily made out , yet 't is Foreign to my purpose ; my design being only to satisfy Lay-Dissenters , and to shew that they may lawfully join with our Church , because then it will appear to be their duty to do so constantly . And certainly if the Case of Lay-Communion were truly stated and understood , the People wou'd not be far more averse to Communion with the Parish-Churches , than the Non-Conforming Ministers , who have often join'd with us . And as the Ministers by bringing their Case to the Peoples , may see Communion then to be lawful , and find themselves obliged to maintain it in a private capacity : so the People by perceiving their Case not to be that of the Ministers , but widely different from it , wou'd be induced to hold Communion with the Church . It appears therefore from what I have already said , that if that part of the Church in which we live be a true and sound part of the Catholic Church , then we are obliged to maintain constant Communion with it . And that the Establish'd Church of England is such a true and sound part of the Catholic Church , even our Dissenters themselves have fully prov'd . For all or most of those , with whom I am to Treat , have join'd in our solemn Offices of Devotion ; which they cou'd not lawfully do , if our Church were not a true and sound part of the Catholic Church of Christ . But I shall not insist upon that personal argument ; because I design to descend to particulars , and to shew First , that our Church is a true and sound part of the Christian Church , and Secondly , that those Pleas which the Dissenters make use of to excuse their separation from her , are vain and frivolous . First , Then , the Establish'd Church of England is a true and sound part of the Catholic Church . That 't is a true Church , appears from the Confession of the most Eminent and Sober (a) Non-Conformists ; nay the Old Non-Conformists undertake to (b) prove it , and so do's the (c) Authour of Jerubbaal ; and if I shou'd proceed to particulars , I might fill a Volume with (d) Testimonies . 'T is true they own her to be a true Church upon different Grounds , because some of the Dissenting Writers are for a National , and others for a Congregational Church ; but they (e) all agree in this that the Church of England is a true Church , tho' they say she is a corrupted one . Nay our (f) Brethren do not only grant her to be a true Church , but also declare her to be one of the most valuable , if not the very best in the world . But I shall say no more of this matter , only I refer the Reader to Mr. Baxter's Cure of Ch. divis . dir . 56. p. 263. That the Establish'd Church is also a sound , as well as a true part of the Catholic Church might easily appear by an examination of it ; but I shall not enter upon so large a work , because it is not necessary : for I conceive that our Dissenters will be not only willing but forward to acknowledge it , when I shall have answer'd those objections which they are pleas'd to make against our Communion , and shewn that those Pleas which they raise from them , are by no means sufficient to make Separation lawful . I proceed therefore to the several Pleas , and design to examine them in their natural order . CHAP. II. The use of indifferent things in the Worship of God , no objection against our Communion . THE First Objection against our Communion is drawn from the use of indifferent things . Our Adversaries say , that indifferent things may not lawfully be us'd in the worship of God , and that our Communion is therefore unlawful , because we require men to use such indifferent things . Now that this objection may be fully answer'd , I shall do four things ; viz. First , I shall shew what is meant by indifferent things . Secondly , I shall shew that indifferent things may be lawfully us'd in divine Worship . Thirdly , I shall consider how we may know , what things are indifferent in the worship of God. Fourthly , I shall shew , how we are to determine our selves in the use of indifferent things with respect to the worship of God. I. Then , I shall shew what is meant by indifferent things . All actions are either duties or sins , or indifferent , that is , such as are neither duties nor sins . Duties or sins are so , either in their own nature or by Divine Law. That which is commanded is a duty ; that which is forbidden is a sin ; but that , which is neither commanded nor forbidden , is indifferent ; because 't is neither duty nor sin ; and we may either chuse or refuse it without sin . For where no law is , there is no transgression ; Rom. 4.15 . Duty is duty , because 't is commanded ; and sin is sin , because 't is forbidden ; and indifferent is indifferent , because 't is neither commanded nor forbidden . So that we may as well know by the silence of the Law what is indifferent , as we may know by its Authority what is a duty or a sin . For where there is no Law for or against , the matter is indifferent . As for instance , suppose there should be a dispute concerning daies set apart for the service of God ; how must this be determin'd , but by the Law of Nature or Revelation ? Now if neither the Law of Nature nor the Law of Revelation say any thing of the observation of such daies , then we are at liberty to observe or not to observe them . II. Indifferent things may be us'd in the Divine worship ; as appears , 1. From the consideration of the Gospel-rules of worship , which ( except what relate to the two Sacraments ) are taken from the Nature of the thing , and were the same in all Ages ; viz. such as respect Order , Decency and Edification . 1 Cor. 14.26 , 40. So that we are no otherwise bound , than all the world ever was ; and therefore , since others have always determin'd the outward circumstances of worship , we have also the same liberty . The Rules themselves are general , and the Apostles rarely descend to particulars ; but whenever they do , they shew how far Custom , Charity and the reason of the thing ought to govern us ; ( as in the case of a Man's being uncover'd in God's worship , 1 Cor. 11.4 , 7. ) for they thought it impossible or not worth their while , to tie all Nations to the same Modes , since God may be honour'd by one as well as the other . If it be said , that when things are determin'd in general , the particulars are therein Virtually determin'd , and so are not indifferent ; I answer , that then nothing is indifferent , since there are general rules about every thing . As for example , all Meats are now lawful to Christians ; but yet there are general rules , by which we are determin'd in the use of them , such as our own constitution , &c. but those rules do not make the Meats to be other than indifferent . So there are general rules for God's worship ; but yet the particulars are indifferent , and prudence is to regulate them . The general rules of Order , Decency and Edification depend upon variable circumstances , and may be different according to those circumstances . That thing may tend to Order , Decency and Edification in one Country or Age , which in another may tend to the contrary . Thus being cover'd in the Church , and the Custom of Love-Feasts , &c. were once thought decent ; but afterwards the opinions of Men alter'd . So that Order , Decency and Edification being changeable things as circumstances vary , only general rules can be prescrib'd ; but the particulars must be left to Authority to determine . 2. Our Saviour and his Apostles did use indifferent things , which were not prescrib'd , in Divine Worship . Thus he join'd in the Synagogal Worship , John 18.20 , &c. tho' ( if the place it self were at all prescrib'd ) the manner of that Service was not so much as hinted at . Thus he us'd the Cup of Charity in the Passover , tho' it was not instituted ; Luke 22.16 . The Feast of Dedication was an human institution , yet he vouchsaf'd to be present at it . Nay he comply'd with the Jews in the very posture of the Passover , which they chang'd to Sitting , tho' God had prescrib'd Standing . The Apostles also observ'd the hours of Prayer , which were of human institution , Acts 3.1 . Now if Christ and his Apostles did thus under the Jewish Law , which was so exact in prescribing outward Ceremonies ; certainly we may do the same under the Gospel . I may add , that the Primitive Christians not only comply'd with the Jews in such Rites as were not forbidden , but also had some ritual observations taken up by themselves . Thus they (a) wash'd the Disciples feet in imitation of Christ , and (b) us'd Love-Feasts ; till they thought it convenient to lay them aside . From whence it appears that prescription is not necessary to make a Rite lawful ; 't is enough if it be not forbidden . If it be said , that these usages of the Christian Church were civil observances , and us'd as well out of God's worship as in it ; and therefore what there needed no institution for , might be lawfully us'd without it ; I answer , 1. That this justifies most of our usages ; for a white Garment was us'd in civil cases as a sign of Royalty and Dignity , &c. 2. A civil observance , when us'd in Religious worship , either remains civil , when so apply'd ; or is religious , when so apply'd . If it be civil , then kneeling in God's worship is not religious , because 't is a posture us'd in civil matters . If it be religious , then a rite that is not prescrib'd , may be us'd in worship to a religious end . 3. 'T is evident , that (c) neither the washing of feet nor the holy Kiss were us'd as civil rites ; and that the latter is call'd by the Fathers the Seal of Prayer and the Seal of Reconciliation . 4. If a rite's being civil makes it lawful in Divine worship , then any civil rite may be us'd in worship , and consequently all the ridiculous practices of the Church of Rome wou'd be warrantable . 5. If a rite's being civil makes it lawful in worship , then how can our Adversaries say , that nothing is to be us'd in worship , but what is prescrib'd by GOD , except the Natural circumstances of action ? For there are many civil Rites which are not natural circumstances of action . Feasting and Salutation are civil usages ; but Divine worship can be perform'd without them . And if these and the like were antiently us'd in worship , then we have the same liberty to introduce such customs . 3. If things indifferent , tho' not prescrib'd , may not be lawfully us'd in God's worship , then we cannot lawfully join with any Church in the World. For all Churches do in some instances or other take the liberty of using , what the Scripture has no where requir'd . Thus the (d) antients observ'd the Feasts of the Passion , Resurrection , &c. Stood in their devotions on the Lord's Day , &c. These things they all agree'd in , and thought it unlawful to act against an universal practice . Besides , some Churches had peculiar customs within the bounds of their own Communion . The Church of Rome fasted on Saturdays , others indifferently on any Day . That of Milan wash'd the feet of persons to be Baptiz'd , but that of Rome did not . Thus in our daies some receive the Lord's Supper kneeling , others standing , &c. So that if we must have an Institution for every thing done in the worship of God , and if we must join in nothing which has it not , then we cannot be members of any Church in the World. Nor indeed can I learn how a Christian can , with a good conscience , perform any part of God's worship , if this principle be admitted for true . For habits and gestures are not determin'd in Scripture , and God's worship cannot be perform'd without them ; and if they are unlawful , for not being commanded , then a man must sin every time he Praies or receives the Sacrament . Nay those that condemn the use of such things as are not commanded , do in their practice confute their opinion . For where , I pray , are they commanded to sprinkle the Children that are Baptiz'd ? or to receive the Lord's Supper sitting ? or to use conceiv'd Prayers ? or to touch and kiss the Book in Swearing ? Or to enter into a particular Church-covenant ? Nay where do they find that the Scripture saith , that there is nothing lawful in divine worship , but what is prescrib'd ; or that what is not commanded is forbidden ? Where are we told , that God will be angry with us for doing that , which he has not forbidden ? Our brethren themselves will allow , that the time and place of God's worship may be prescrib'd by Authority ; and why then may not necessary circumstances , such as gestures and habits , be thus determin'd , tho' they be not commanded ? Certainly the command of a lawful power does not make that unlawful , which was not forbidden , and by consequence was lawful before . They say indeed , that Nadab and Abihu sinn'd , because they offer'd strange fire before the Lord , which he commanded them not , &c. Lev. 10.1 , &c. and therefore there must be a command to make any thing lawful in divine worship . But to this I answer , that the phrase not commanded is constantly apply'd to such things as are absolutely forbidden . The fire also is call'd strange ; which phrase when apply'd to matters of worship , signifies as much as forbidden . Thus strange incense , Exod. 30.9 , 24. is such as was forbidden , because it was not rightly made ; strange vanities is but another word for strange Gods , Jer. 8.19 . and thus the fire of these Men was strange , that is forbidden fire . For there was scarce any thing belonging to the Altar , of which more is said than of the fire burning upon it . Lev. 9.24 . & 6.12 . & 16.12 . 'T was lighted from Heaven , and was to be always burning . When atonement was to be made by incense , the coals were to be taken from thence , and therefore surely 't was peculiar to those offices . Nay just after the account of the extraordinary way of lighting the fire , follows this relation of Nadab and Abihu , to shew wherein they offended . For before it was the office of Aaron's Sons to put fire upon the Altar ; and now they suffer'd for attempting to do as formerly , because Heaven had declar'd to the contrary . There was also a Conformity between the punishment and the sin ; for as fire from the Lord consum'd the burnt-offering , so fire from the Lord consum'd them . So that their case seems like that of Vzzah , 1 Chron. 13.7 , 10 , & 15.2 . for they acted contrary to God's command . I may add that in other places also the phrase not commanded is apply'd to things forbidden ; such as are call'd abominations , that is , idolatrous worship , false Prophets , &c. Deut. 17.3 , 4. Jer. 7.31 . & 19.5 . & 32.35 . so that since the phrase is always spoken of things plainly forbidden , 't is a sign , that 't is rather God's forbidding that made them unlawful , than his not commanding . But , say they , why shou'd the phrase be us'd at all in such matters , if not commanded is not the same as forbidden ? To this I answer , that not commanded is only a softer way of speaking , which is usual in all languages , and frequently to be met with in Scripture . Thus God saies , that hypocrites chuse that in which I delighted not , Is . 66.4 . that is , their abominations , as we read , v. 3. So the Apostle saies , the Gentiles did things not convenient , Rom , 1.28 , 29. that is , envy , murther , &c. And the phrase not commanded is of the like kind , when the things it 's apply'd to , are alike abominable . Besides , if not commanded be the same as forbidden , then the very notion of indifferent things is destroy'd , and there is no indifferent thing in the world ; because a thing indifferent is , as I said before , that which is neither commanded nor forbidden . But 't is said , that all things not commanded in God's Word are additions to it ; and that such additions are unlawful , because God saies , Ye shall not add unto the Word which I command you , neither shall ye diminish ought from it , Deut. 4.2 . and the Scribes are condemn'd , Matth. 15.9 . because they taught for doctrines the Commandments of Men. Now to this I reply , that if by adding to the Word they mean doing what the Word forbids ; or appointing somewhat else instead of what God has appointed ; or expounding away the design of the Word ; or making that which is not the Word of God , to be of equal authority with it , as the Scribes did ; or giving the same efficacy to human institutions as God does to his ; if I say by adding to the Word they mean any of these things , we think that adding to the Word is unlawful . And if by diminishing they mean neglecting what the Word requires , or thinking God's institutions not compleat , we think that diminishing from the Word is unlawful . But if they say , that doing any thing not commanded in the worship of God , tho' it have none of the ingredients before spoken of , is a sinful adding to the Word ; we therein differ from them . 1. Because Christ and his Apostles and all Churches have done things not commanded . 2. Because this destroys the nature of indifferent things ; which cannot be indifferent , if they be sinful additions to God's Word . Besides , adding is adding to the Substance , and diminishing is diminishing from the Substance ; so that when the Substance remains intire without debasement or corruption , it cannot be call'd an addition or diminution in the Scripture-sence . However our Adversaries themselves are really guilty of what they charge upon us ; for they forbid , as absolutely unlawful , to use any thing in the worship of God , which is not prescrib'd ; and certainly he that forbids what the Scripture do's not forbid , do's as much add to it , as he that commands what the Gospel doth not command . As for the Words of the 2d Commandment , Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image , &c. they do by no means prove , that we must worship God by no other Religious rites , than what he has prescrib'd . 'T is true , we are there commanded to worship none besides God , and to worship God in a manner sutable to his Nature and agreeable to his Will : but surely rites instituted by Men for the Solemnity of God's Service are not there forbidden . It has been said indeed , that Ceremonies , being invented by Man , are of the same nature with images ; but we must observe , 1. That Images are expresly forbidden , and Ceremonies are not . 2. That Images tend to debase God in the thoughts of those that worship him after that Manner , but Ceremonies do not ; and therefore Ceremonies are not a breach of the 2d . Commandment . Ceremonies are not Essential parts of Divine Worship , but only circumstances of it ; and certainly our Brethren cannot find fault , that such circumstances are us'd to further Devotion . For they themselves do plead for sitting at the Lord's Supper , &c. upon this very account , because they think such external circumstances do further Devotion . But , say they , if there be not a Rule for all things belonging to the Worship of God , the Gospel wou'd be less perfect than the Law ; and Christ wou'd not be so faithful in the care of his Church , as Moses , who was faithful in all his house , Heb. 3.2 . Therefore as Moses laid down all the particular Rules for God's Worship under the Law , so has Christ under the Gospel ; and it is as dangerous to add , as to detract from them . Now to this I answer , that the design of the Epistle to the Hebrews is to compare Moses and Christ , or the Law and the Gospel , and to shew the exact Correspondence between the Type and the Antitype ; and not to shew that our Saviour had as particularly prescrib'd the Order of Christian Worship , as Moses had that of the Jewish . The Gospel is not so particular in the Circumstantials of Worship as the Law was ; and we must not affirm that it is , because we wou'd have it so . We cannot prove , that Christ has actually done this , because we imagine that he shou'd have done it . We may better argue , that since these things are not expresly determin'd under the Gospel , as they were under the Law ; therefore they are left to the determination of our Superiours , whom we are commanded to obey . Nor are the sufficiency of Scripture and faithfulness of Christ , to be judg'd of by what we fancy they shou'd have determin'd , but by what they have . Since we do not find in the Scriptures such particular prescriptions in Baptism as in Circumcision , nor in the Lord's Supper as in the Passover , nor in our Prayers as in the Jewish Sacrifices ; therefore 't is plain , that the sufficiency of Scripture and faithfulness of Christ do respect somewhat else , and that they are not the less for want of them . Christ was faithful as Moses to him that appointed him , in performing what belong'd to him as a Mediatour , and discovering to Mankind in Scripture the Method and Means , by which they may be sav'd ; and the sufficiency of Scripture appears in its being a sufficient means to that end , and it 's putting Men into such a State , as will render them capable of attaining to it . III. I am next to consider , how we may know , what things are indifferent in the worship of God. To this I might answer briefly , that in things forbidden by human Authority , the not being requir'd in Scripture ; and in things requir'd by human Authority , the not being forbidden in Scripture , is a Rule , whereby we may know , what things are indifferent in the worship of God. But because things in their nature indifferent , may become unlawful in their use and application , therefore I shall add the following particulars . 1. Things are call'd indifferent from their general Nature , and not as if they were never unlawful ; for they are lawful or unlawful , as they are us'd and apply'd . 2. A thing may not be requir'd or forbidden by one Law , which is by another ; and that may be indifferent in one state which is not in another ; and therefore when we say a thing is indifferent , we must consider the Case and Law which it respects . Thus to discourse about common affairs is a thing indifferent ; but it is unlawful , when practis'd in the Church , and in the midst of Religious Solemnities . 3. As there are certain Rules , which we are to respect in common conversation , and which even in that case ought to tie us up in the use of things ( otherwise ) indifferent : so there are some Rules , which we must have a regard to in the administration of Divine worship . And as in common matters the nature of the thing , in actions the end , in conversation the circumstances are to be heeded , viz. time , place , persons ; as when , where , before whom we are cover'd and uncover'd , &c. so in sacred matters , the nature of the thing , in the decency and solemnity of the worship ; the end for which it was appointed , in the Edification of the Church ; and the Peace , Glory and Security of that , are to be respected . By these Rules we are to judge of the indifferency of things in God's service . But because these Rules are general ; and Decency , Edification and Order are variable according as circumstances alter ; and because different men have different opinions of them ; therefore I shall give more particular Directions . 1. Some things are so notoriously agreeable or opposite to Decency , Edification and Order , that common reason will be able to judge of them . Thus 't is plain , that a tumultuous speaking of many together is less for Edification , and has more of confusion , than the orderly speaking of one by one ; and service in an unknown Tongue do's less conduce to Edification , than when 't is in a Language commonly understood . But , 2. There are other things which are not so evident ; and therefore for the clearing of them we may observe ; 1. That Decency , Order and Edification depend upon each other , and must not be consider'd asunder . And therefore we must not throw down the bounds of public Order , and bring all things into confusion , for the sake of Edification , or because we think any matter indecent . What is against public Order and Practice , is for that reason indecent , were there no other reason to make it so . So that if we wou'd judge aright of either of these , we must judge of them together ; and as Order alone is not enough to make a thing Decent , which is in it self indecent ; so Decency or particular Edification is not enough to recommend that , which cannot be introduc'd without the disturbance of public Order . 2. That when the case is not apparent , we shou'd rather judge by what is contrary , than by what is agreeable to these rules . We know better , what things are not , than what they are ; and therefore , since we better know what is indecent than decent , disorderly than orderly , against Edification than for it , it 's best to take this course in judging about it . As for instance , if we wou'd inquire into the decency of the posture to be us'd in the Lord's Supper , or the Edification that may arise from it ; it may not perhaps be so easy for a Man to judge of the greater Decency and Edification of kneeling or sitting ; but if he find that the posture injoin'd is not indecent or destructive of Piety , and of the ends for which the ordinance was instituted , he is therewith to satisfy himself . If , says St. Austin , Epist . 118. what is injoyn'd be not against Faith or good manners , it is to be accounted indifferent ; and I may add , if it be not indecent , disorderly and destructive of Piety , it 's lawful . 3. That if the case be not apparent , and we cannot easily find out how the things injoin'd are decent , &c. we are obliged to be cautious how we condemn an action , which those men practice whom for other things we cannot condemn . When we find that they argue , and produce Experience and Reason for it , and we have a whole Church against our Opinion , we shou'd be apt to think the fault may be in our selves ; and that 't is for want of understanding and insight , for want of use and Tryal , and by reason of some prejudices , that we thus differ in our judgment from them . We see what little things do determine men ordinarily in these matters , how addicted they are to their own ways and customs ; and therefore we shou'd think again . So may we be reconcil'd to the rites of a Church , as we are to the customs and habits of a Nation , which at first seem as indecent , as the Ceremonies of a Church can do . In short , we have reason to suspect , 't is a Zeal without Knowledge , when we presume to set our Judgment , Reason and Experience against the Judgment , Reason and Experience of the Christian World. IV. I am now to shew in the last place , how we are to determine our selves in the use of indifferent things , with respect to the worship of GOD. 1. Then as particular Persons , solitary and alone , we may forbear to use what is indifferent , when no Law of Man requires it ; and we may freely use it , when no Law of Man forbids it . 2. In our conversation with others we must so use our Liberty , as shall be less to the prejudice and more to the benefit of those we converse with . We may act or forbear in complyance with Persons of weaker Judgment . But 3. as we are Members of a Church , we are to obey the commands of it . For if the not grieving a Brother or endangering his Soul obliges us to restrain the exercise of our Liberty , much more do's the Peace of the Church oblige us to the same . Let every one please his neighbour , for his good to Edification , Rom. 15.2 . that is , to his improvement in Knowledge , Grace , or Piety , and the promoting of Concord and Charity . Now Edification is chiefly so with respect to the whole , as the Church is the House of God , 1 Pet. 2.5 . and every Christian is a Stone of it , and therefore ought to study what may be for the Edification of the whole . And how is that , but by promoting Love , Peace and Order , and taking care to preserve it ? For so we (e) find Peace and Edifying , Comfort and Edification , Union and Edification join'd together , as the one promotes the other . And therefore as the good and Edification of the Church is to be always in our Eye ; so 't is the Rule by which we ought to act in all things lawful ; and to that end we shou'd comply with its customs , observe its directions , and obey its orders , without reluctancy and opposition . If any Man seem , or have a mind to be contentious , we have no such custom , neither the Churches of God ; 1 Cor. 11.16 . Whatever might be urg'd , the Apostle concludes , we have no such Custom , &c. The Peace of the Church is to a peaceable mind sufficient to put an end to all disputes about it ; and since the Peace of the Church depends upon the observation of its customs , that is infinitely to be preferr'd before scrupulosity and niceness , or a meer inclination to a contrary practice . There must be somewhat establish'd ; and the very change of a custom , tho' it may happen to profit , yet doth disturb by its Novelty , saies St. Austin , Epist . 118. Infirmity in a Church is better than confusion ; and in things which neither we nor the worship are the worse for , but the Church the better for observing , Peace and Order are to be preferr'd far before niceties ; and certainly neither we nor the service of God can be the worse for what God has concluded nothing in . In a word , what St. Austin and his Mother receiv'd from St. Ambrose is worthy to be recommended to all ; That in all things not contrary to Truth and good Manners , it becomes a good and prudent Christian to practise according to the custom of the Church where he comes , if he will not be a scandal to them , nor have them to be a scandal to him . Epist . 118 , & 86. And if the custom and practice of a Church must oblige a good Man ; much more ought it so to do , when 't is Establish'd by Law , and back'd by Authority . For then to stand in opposition , is not only an Offence but an Affront ; 't is to contend , whether we or our Superiours shall Govern ; and what can be the issue of such a temper , but distraction ? 'T is pleaded , that there shou'd be a Liberty left to Christians in things undetermin'd in Scripture ; but there are things which they must agree in , or else there can be nothing but confusion . For instance , what Order can there be , if Superiours may not determine , whether Prayers shall be long or short , and the like ? To conclude , when the Scripture do's neither require nor forbid an action , we ought to obey the Orders of the Church in the performance or omission of it . But 't is said , That if we be restrain'd in the use of indifferent things , we are also restrain'd in our Christian Liberty , which the Apostle exhorts us to stand fast in , Gal. 5.1 . Now to this I answer ; 1. This is no argument to those that say , there is nothing indifferent in the worship of God ; for then there is no matter of Christian Liberty in it . 2. A restraint of our Liberty , or receding from it , is of it self no violation of it . The most scrupulous Persons plead , that the strong ought to bear with the weak , and give them no offence by indulging that Liberty , which others are afraid to take ; and why , I pray , is a Man's Liberty more damaged , when restrain'd by Superiours , than when 't is restrain'd by another's Conscience ? If it be said , that the Superiour's command restrains it perpetually ; I answer , that the case is still the same ; for the Apostle who knew his own Liberty , supposes that it wou'd not be damnify'd , tho' it were restrain'd for his whole life . For , saies he , if Meat make my Brother to offend , I will eat no Flesh while the World standeth ; 1 Cor. 8.13 . and this he wou'd not have said , had he not thought it consistent with standing fast in that Liberty , &c. 3. Christian Liberty is indeed nothing else , but freedom from the restraints , which the Jewish Law laid upon men . This is that Liberty which we are exhorted to stand fast in ; and I think , that in obeying the orders of our Church , there is no danger of Judaism . But we must note that Christian Liberty consists , not in our being freed from the act of observing the Jewish Law ; but in being freed from the necessity of observing it . For the Apostles and first Christians did observe it for some time upon prudential considerations ; but they did so , not out of necessity , but in condescension to their weak Converts . And if they cou'd observe some Judaical Rites without infringing their Christian Liberty ; certainly we may safely use a few indifferent Ceremonies . From what has been said it plainly appears , that the use of indifferent things is no objection against living in Communion with our Establish'd Church ; and this is enough to satisfy those Persons , who upon no other account , than that of a few harmless impositions , are guilty of separation from her . But because they have some particular objections against some particular things impos'd by her , therefore I shall not satisfy my self with proving the lawfulness of using indifferent things in general , but endeavour to satisfy all their scruples which relate to single instances , as I shall have occasion to treat of them in the following Chapters . CHAP. III. Of the Lawfulness and Expediency of Forms of Prayer . THE next objection against our Communion is the use of Forms of Prayer . This the Dissenters judge to be unlawful , or at least not expedient ; and they think it a sufficient excuse for their separation from us . I shall therefore in this Chapter endeavour to rectify their mistakes ; 1. By shewing that both Scripture and Antiquity do warrant Forms of Prayer . 2. By answering their objections against Forms of Prayer . And 3. by proving that the imposition of Forms of Prayer may be lawfully comply'd with . First then I shall shew , that both Scripture and Antiquity do warrant Forms of Prayer . The Dissenters indeed require us to produce some positive command of Scripture for the use of Forms of Prayer ; but this is needless , because I have shewn in the foregoing Chapter , that things not commanded may be lawfully us'd in Divine worship . However , for their full satisfaction I shall endeavour to prove these Two things ; 1. That some Forms of Prayer are commanded in Holy Scripture . 2. That tho' no Forms were commanded , yet Forms are as Lawful as extempore Prayers . I. Then , some Forms of Prayer are commanded in Holy Scripture . I do not say that God's Word commands us to use none but Forms ; but I affirm that several Forms of Prayer are injoin'd in God's Word . Thus Numb . 6.23 , &c. the Priest is commanded to Pray for the People in this very Form of words , The Lord bless thee , &c. And Deut. 21.7 , 8. the People are injoin'd to say , Be merciful , O Lord , &c. and 26.13 , &c. I have brought , &c. Look down from thy Holy , &c. David also by Divine inspiration appointed the Book of Psalms for the public service , as appears by the Titles of many of them . And tho' some of them have no Titles at all , yet we find they were deliver'd by David into the hands of Asaph and his Brethren , for Forms of Praise and Thanksgiving , 1 Chron. 16.7 . and accordingly Hezekiah commanded the Levites to make use of them , 2 Chron. 29.30 . This Liturgy also was renew'd by Ezra , Ezr. 3.10 , 11. Besides our Saviour saies , When ye Pray , say , Our Father , &c. in which he do's as plainly prescribe that very Form , as 't is possible . Nay had he said , use this Form , it cou'd not have been more expressive of his intention to impose it as a Form. If it be said , that the Lord's Prayer is not a Form , but only a Pattern or Directory of Prayer ; because our Saviour , Matt. 6.9 . commanded his Disciples to Pray after this manner , Our Father , &c. I answer , 1. When the same matter is mention'd ambiguously in one Text , and plainly in another , then the doubtful or ambiguous Text must be determin'd by the plain one . Now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Matt. 6.9 . may be as well translated Pray in these words , as Pray after this manner ; but I confess , we cannot certainly know from that Text , whether Christ commands us to use that very Form , or one like it . But then the words , Luke 11.2 . When ye Pray , say , Our Father , &c. are so express a command to use that very Form , that nothing can be plainer ; and therefore the other Text must be determin'd by them . 2. Our Saviour gave this Prayer not after the manner of a Directory , but of a Form. Had he design'd it for a Directory , he wou'd have bidden them to call upon God for such and such things : whereas he gives them a Form'd Prayer , and bids them say it ; and we may reasonably suppose , that he intended we shou'd use it as a Form , since he gave it as such . 3. Tho' the words in St. Matthew were only a Directory , yet those in St. Luke are a Form of Prayer . For the former were deliver'd in the Sermon upon the Mount , in the second year after his Baptism ; but the latter upon another quite different occasion in the third year after it . Therefore 't is probable , that the Disciples understood those in St. Matthew only as a Directory ; and requested our Saviour afterwards to give them a Form. For , 4. the occasion of Christ's giving them this Prayer in St. Luke , was their requesting him to Teach them to pray , as John taught his Disciples . For 't was the custom of the Jewish Doctors to Teach their Disciples a particular Form of Prayer ; and St. John had done the same , and the Disciples desire , that Christ wou'd do so too . For neither St. John's , nor our Saviour's Disciples cou'd be ignorant how to Pray ; but their request was , that Christ wou'd give them his particular Form according to the Jewish custom ; and this Form he gave them , which we call the Lord's Prayer . But 't is objected , that supposing our Saviour did prescribe it as a Form , yet it was only for a time , till they shou'd be more fully instructed and enabled to Pray by the coming of the Holy Spirit . For , say they , before Christ's Ascension the Disciples had ask'd nothing in his Name , Joh. 16.24 . but all Prayers after Christ's Ascension were to be offer'd in his Name , Joh. 14.13 , 14. & 16.23 . Now this Prayer has nothing of his Name in it ; and therefore was not design'd to be us'd after his Ascension ; and accordingly , say they , in all the New Testament we have not the least intimation of the Disciples using this Form. But this objection is of no force , if we consider the following particulars . 1. That our Saviour has not given us the least intimation , that he prescrib'd this Form only for a time , and not for continual use . And if we may pronounce Christ's Institution to be null without his Authority , then Baptism and the Lord's Supper may be temporary prescriptions , as well as the Lord's Prayer . Whatever Christ has instituted without limitation of time , do's alwaies oblige . 2. That his not inserting his own Name into it , is no Argument at all , that he never intended it shou'd be us'd after his Ascension . For to Pray in Christ's Name is to Pray in his Mediation , depending upon his Merits and Intercession for the acceptance of our Prayers ; and therefore Prayers may be offer'd up in Christ's Name , tho' we do not name him . Thus without doubt the Disciples Pray'd in his Name , Acts 4.24 . tho' his Mediation is not mention'd . 'T is true , his Name is not expressed in the Lord's Prayer ; because when he gave it , he was not yet Ascended , and his Disciples were not to ask in his Name , till after his Ascension : but now that he is Ascended , we can as well offer it in his Name , as if it had been express'd in it . Nay 't is so fram'd , that now after his Ascension , when the Doctrine of his Mediation was to be more fully explain'd , we cannot offer it at all , but in and thro' his Mediation . For God is peculiarly our Father in and thro' Jesus Christ . And therefore Christ's not inserting his own Name , do's by no means prove , that he did not design it for a standing Form. 3. That tho' the Scriptures do not mention the Apostles and Disciples using the Lord's Prayer , yet this is no argument either that they did not use it , or that they did not believe themselves obliged to use it . For we may as well conclude from the silence of Scripture , that they did not Baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son , and of the Holy Ghost , tho' Christ had commanded them so to do ; as we may conclude , that they did not use the Lord's Prayer , tho' Christ commanded them to say , Our Father , &c. Especially if we consider , that those who liv'd nearest the Apostolical Ages , and so were the most competent Judges of what was done in them , where the Scripture is silent , did alwaies use this Form in their Public Prayers , and believe themselves obliged to do so . Now that this Prayer was look't upon as a standing Form , to be perpetually us'd , appears from Tertull. de Orat. St. Cyprian de Orat. Dom. St. Cyril , Cat. Myst . 5. St. Jerom. in Pelag. l. 3. St. Austin . Hom. 42.50 . Epist . 59. St. Chrysost . de Simult . St. Gregory Ep. lib. 7. cap. 6. And to be sure , they who believ'd the Institution of it to be perpetually obliging , cou'd not doubt , but that it was constantly us'd in the Apostolic Age. And methinks 't is very strange , that had the Institution been temporary , the Church of Christ for Fifteen hundred Years , shou'd never be wise enough to discover it ; and it seems to me a very high presumption for us to determin against the constant belief and practice of the Church in all Ages , without the least warrant so to do , either from our Saviour or his Apostles . But it is Objected yet farther , that tho' Forms of God's appointing may and ought to be us'd , yet Forms of Man's composure ought not : and that we may as well appoint New Scripture for Public instruction , because the inspir'd persons did so ; as we may appoint new Forms for Public worship , because they did so . But this objection also will be of no force , if we consider Four things . 1. That this Objection allows the prescribing of Forms to be lawful in its own nature ; for otherwise God must have done that which is unlawful in its own nature . Nay our Saviour's prescribing his Form was a tacit approbation of other Forms , that were prescrib'd before , and that not only by God , but by Men too . For the Jews us'd several Forms of human composure in their Temple and Synagogues in our Saviour's time , yet he was so far from disapproving them , that he prescrib'd a Form to his own Disciples ; which Form , as Mr. Gregory has prov'd , he collected out of the Jewish Forms , in whose Books the several Parts and Clauses of it are Extant almost verbatim to this day . And certainly had he disapprov'd their Forms as evil and sinful , he wou'd never have Collected his own Prayer out of them . Since therefore our Saviour's giving a Form in such circumstances signifies his approbation of other Forms , 't is plain either that he approv'd what is evil , or that Forms are lawful . 2. That this Objection must allow the prescribing of Public Forms to be not only lawful , but also useful . For otherwise God , who alwaies Acts for wise Ends , and Uses the most proper means , wou'd never have prescrib'd any Forms . And certainly what was once useful , is useful still . For 1. we are now dull and carnal enough to need Forms ; and 2. our Saviour has prescrib'd one to be us'd in all Ages , which he wou'd not have done , had it not been useful for the Gospel-state . 3. That this Objection must also allow , that God's prescribing Forms by Inspir'd Persons may be lawfully imitated by us , provided we have the same reason for it . And therefore Governours may prescribe Forms as long as Forms are useful . 4. That tho' Governours may prescribe Forms after God's Example , yet they may not prescribe them as Scripture , or Divine Inspiration . For as Spiritual Governours must take care to instruct the People after God's Example , but are not obliged to do it by Inspir'd Persons : so they may prescribe Forms of Prayer after God's Example , but cannot pretend to do it by Inspiration . They have God's Example for doing the Action ; but they cannot pretend to Inspiration in the doing of it without manifest falshood and presumtion . And therefore , tho' God's Example will warrant for the one ; yet it will not warrant them falsly to pretend to the other . Thus then it appears , that some Forms of Prayer are commanded in Holy Scripture ; and that our Governours are Authoriz'd by God's Example to prescribe others , when they judge them useful . II. Therefore , I am to prove , that tho' no Forms were prescrib'd , yet Forms are as lawful as conceiv'd or Extempore Prayers . Certainly there is no command of God to pray Extempore ; and therefore Forms have a better claim to Divine Authority , than they . 'T is said indeed , that wheresoever we are commanded to Pray Vocally , we are commanded to Pray in our own Conceptions and words ; but this is a great mistake . For certainly when God commanded Men to Pray by his own Forms , they did pray Vocally , tho' not in their own words . And here let me take notice , that Dissenters appropriate the Name of Prayer to Praying in their own words ; and call the using a Form ( not Prayer , but ) Reading a Prayer . But surely the Levites did really Pray , when they us'd the Words of David and Asaph ; and so did the Primitive Christians , when they said the Lord's Prayer ; and if so , then a Form may be truly call'd a Vocal Prayer . For Vocal Prayer consists in the speaking of our devout affections to God whether with , or without a Form. But they pretend , that whatsoever instances there may be of Forms in Old Times , God has declar'd in the New Testament , that it is his Will , we shou'd Pray by our own gift of utterance for the future . Now methinks , had it been the Will of God , that we shou'd not Pray by Forms , 't is very strange that in all the New Testament there shou'd be no express prohibition of it . Especially since I have prov'd that the Jews had Forms , and Philo de Victim . p. 483. and the Modern Rabbins own the same ; they were also a People most tenacious of their customs , and therefore needed to be forbidden the use of Forms , had our Lord design'd to exclude them out of his Worship . Nay the Essenes , who of all the Sects of the Jews , did most readily embrace Christianity , had certain Forms of Prayer , as Josephus observes , De Bell. Jud. l. 2. c. 7. p. 783. Now when those that were most likely to receive the Christian Faith , were so addicted to Forms , can we imagine , that had Christ intended they shou'd use them no longer , he wou'd not have given them express warning of them ? But when instead of so doing , he bids them say , Our Father , &c. how cou'd they think , but that he design'd they shou'd still use a Form , as they did before ? Were not that his design , 't is strange , that he took no care to undeceive them . But that I may fully prove , that the Scripture does not command us to Pray without a Form ; I shall examine the reasons for which the Dissenters think it do's . God , say they , has promis'd us an ability to utter our minds in Vocal Prayer , and therefore to Pray by Forms of other Men's composure is contrary to his intention . But I shall afterwards prove , that this ability , which they pretend is promis'd for the purpose of Vocal Prayer , is a common gift , which God has no more appropriated to Prayer , than to any other end of utterance and elocution ; and that therefore to omit the using it in Prayer , is no more contrary to the intention of God , than to omit the using it upon any other just and lawful occasion . However , because they urge some places of Scripture to prove , that 't is design'd merely for Vocal Prayer , I shall therefore consider them . 1. They urge Zach. 12.10 . I will pour out upon the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem , the Spirit of grace and supplications . The Hebrew word , translated supplications , do's alwaies ( say they ) denote Vocal Prayer , and therefore pouring out the Spirit of supplications must imply communicating an ability to Pray Vocally . To this I answer , that the word is no more restrain'd to Vocal Prayer , than any other word that signifies Prayer in Scripture . 'T is true we read , Psal . 28.2 . Hear the voice of my supplication , when I cry unto thee ; but the voice of my supplication do's not necessarily denote Vocal Prayer . For 't is a Hebrai●● , and may signify no more than my Supplication or Prayer . For so Gen. 4.10 . 't is said , The voice of thy Brother's blood cries , &c. Now the blood had no real voice to cry with , but cry'd just as mental Prayer do's . In other places the word signifies both mental and vocal Prayer indifferently , Psal . 86.6 . & 6.9 . or Prayer in general , Jer. 31.9 . But suppose the word were alwaies us'd for Vocal Prayer , yet surely the Promise of pouring out the Spirit of supplications intends a much greater good than the gift of extempore utterance in Prayer , of which bad Men may have a greater share than the most devout . And what is that greater good , but the gift of Heavenly affections in Prayer ? If it be urg'd , that God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son , crying , Abba Father . Gal. 4.6 . and that we have receiv'd the Spirit of adoption , whereby we cry , Abba Father , Rom. 8.15 . and that these Texts prove us to be enabled to Pray Vocally by the Spirit , and that therefore we ought not to Pray by Forms ; I answer , 1. That if these words oblige us to cry Vocally to God by our own gifts , then we are equally obliged in all our Vocal Prayers to cry to him in these words , Abba Father ; because that is the cry which the Spirit enables us to make , and the Text is every whit as express for one as for the other . 2. I deny that crying here do's necessarily denote Vocal Prayer . For how often do we find the word apply'd to things that have no Voice at all ? Thus the stones wou'd immediately cry out , Luke 19.40 . and the Labourers hire is said to cry to God , James 5.4 . And indeed crying to God has the same latitude with Prayer , which includes both Vocal and Mental . 3. Suppose that crying , Abba Father , by the Spirit , signifies Vocal Prayer ; yet all that can be gather'd from it is only this , that when we Pray Vocally , we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to address our selves to God with assurance , as to a merciful Father ; and this we may as well do in a Form as otherwise . For if we never cry Abba Father by the spirit , but when we word our own Prayers , we can no more be said to do it when we join with a public Extempore Prayer , than when we join with a public Form , because we word our own Prayers in neither . 'T is true , the Scripture speaks of a gift of utterance , which , say they , was given for Praying as well as Preaching ; but I answer , that the gift of utterance was miraculous and particular to the Primitive Ages . This gift , saies Saint Chrysostom Hom. 24. ad Eph. c. 6. is that which Christ promis'd , Mark 13.11 . by which the Disciples spake without premeditation , and what they spake was the inspir'd Word of God ; and this Gift no sober Dissenter will pretend to . The Apostles began to speak with tongues , as the spirit gave them utterance , Act. 2.4 . and the Dissenters may as well pretend to the gift of Tongues , as that of Utterance , they being both extraordinary . But say they , tho' all Men have not the Gift of Praying Extempore , yet some have ; and therefore God requires such to Pray by their gift and not by a Form. For he requires them not to neglect the gift , 1 Tim. 4.14 . but to stir up the gift , 2 Tim. 1.6 . and to Minister the gift , 1 Pet. 4.10 . and that having gifts , &c. Rom. 12.6 . and if Men are obliged to exercise their gifts in general , then they must exercise their gift of Praying Extempore in particular . Now to these things , I answer , First , That the gift bestow'd upon Timothy was the gift of Episcopal power , which he is exhorted to exercise diligently . For at the first plantation of the Gospel , the Holy Ghost Pointed out the Men , that were to be Bishops , as the (f) Fathers testifie . For this reason the gift is said to be given him by Prophesy . 'T was given also with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery ; and these two circumstances prove , that the gift was not the gift of Prophesying , but the gift of Episcopal Authority bestow'd upon him by imposition of hands at God's particular Appointment . And now I pray , how do's this Text prove , that we must use a gift of Vocal Prayer in our own words ? As for 1 Pet. 4.10 . Rom. 12.6 . I Answer , 1. That there can be nothing in them against Praying by a Form ; for then they wou'd make as much against using the Lord's Prayer , as any other Form. 2. That the design of those Texts is to stir Men up to diligence in the exercise of those several Offices , viz. The Office of a Bishop , a Priest , a Deacon , and a Rich Man. For 't is plain that the word Gift do's oftentimes signifie an Office ; and tho' it may be said , that the relief of the Poor is rather the exercise of an Ability than an Office , yet I answer , that 't is properly the exercise of an Office , because the very having Ability do's as much put a Man into the Office of shewing mercy to the Poor , as if God had appointed him to it by a solemn Ordination . 3. Supposing that by these gifts were not meant Offices , but only abilities , yet we are obliged so to exercise them , That all things may be done to Edification ; for so the Apostle declares that those extraordinary Gifts , that were pour'd out in the Primitive Times , were to be us'd , 1 Cor. 14.2 , 6 , 19 , 40. as 't is particularly plain by the instance of the Gift of Tongues , vers . 23 , 26 , 28. Now if we are not to exercise our gifts , but as they tend to Edification , then we must not exercise the gift of Praying Extempore any farther than it tends to Edification . And since Praying by a Form in Public Worship do's ( as I shall afterwards prove ) tend more to Edification , than Praying Extempore ; therefore 't is plain that we ought to suspend the use of the gift of conceiv'd Prayer . Thus , I hope , I have made it appear that some Forms of Prayer are commanded in Scripture , and that those Texts which are urg'd against the use of forms of Prayer , do prove nothing against them ; and therefore I think I may safely affirm , that the Scripture do's warrant Forms of Prayer . I proceed now to shew that Antiquity do's the same . This I shall do , 1. by answering those Authorities , which are objected by the Dissenters against the use of Forms in the Primitive Ages . 2. By proving that they were us'd in those Ages , by a short Historical Account of the matter of Fact. 1. Then 't is objected , First that Justin Martyr saies , Apol. 2. p. 98. That the Minister at the Communion Pray'd , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , say they , according to his ability ; from whence they infer , that in his daies the Ministers Pray'd by their own gifts and abilities . To this I answer , that the words do signify with all his might , i. e. with his utmost fervency . For the same words are spoken of the People in the same Book , p. 60. who did not compose their own Prayer at the Eucharist ; and the same Phrase is us'd in the same sence by Nazianzen , Orat. 3. 2 dly , Because Tertullian in his Apology affirms , that Christians did Pray without a Monitor or Prompter , because they did Pray from their hearts ; they think he alludes to a custom of the Heathen , who in their public worship had a Monitor to direct them in what words and to what God they were to Pray . Now since the Christians Pray'd without a Monitor , therefore say they , they Pray'd without any one to direct them what Form of words they were to pray in . To which I answer , 1. That without a Monitor cannot signify , without any one to dictate a Form of words . For in their public Prayers the Minister was the Mouth of the People ; and therefore whether he Pray'd by Form or extempore , his words were a Form to the People . Whatever therefore this obscure Phrase means , 't is certain it cannot mean without a Form , unless it means without a Minister too . 2. It seems to me most probable , that by without a Monitor is meant , without any one to correct them , when either the People repeated or the Minister recited the public Prayers falsly . For (g) the Heathen Priests began their Sacrifices with a Form of Prayer , which began with an Invocation of Janus and Vesta , and proceeded with the invocations of all the greater Deities by name . Now that none of the greater God's might be pretermitted , and (h) none of the Prayers falsly or disorderly recited or repeated , (i) one Priest read out of a Ritual , and another was appointed for a Public Monitor , to oversee and correct such mistakes as might be made . When therefore Tertullian saies , We Pray without a Monitor , his meaning is not , that we Pray without a Priest to dictate our Prayers to us , whether out of a Book or Extempore ; but that we Pray without one to oversee , to admonish the Priests or People , when they dictate or repeat falsly . Because , saies he , we Pray from our hearts ; that is , either by joining our affections and desires with the Priest without repeating the words , or by saying our Prayers by heart ; so that we need none to correct us . For Tertullian affects to express the Greek ; and therefore 't is probable his de pectore , or from the heart may be a translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which signifies to say by heart . So that Tertullian's words do rather argue for the use of Forms , than against them . The Third and last testimony against the Antiquity of Forms of Prayer , is that of Socrates Scholasticus , whose words , Hist . lib. 5. c. 22. they thus translate ; Every where and in all worships of Prayer , there are not two to be found , that speak the same words . And therefore , say they , 't is very unlikely , they shou'd Pray by Forms . But we must observe , that he had been speaking of the different ceremonies and customs of the chief Churches ; and then concludes , Every where and among all worships of Prayer , there are not two to be sound , ( not that speak the same words ) but that agree 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the same thing . Where by worships of Prayer he means rites of Prayer , which the Churches differ'd in . And how do's it follow , that because they did not use the same rites and ceremonies of Prayer , therefore they did not use Forms of Prayer ? For even now we see there are different rites and ceremonies of Prayer among those Churches , which do yet agree in using Forms of Prayer . 2. Therefore I am to prove , that Forms were us'd in the Primitive times , by a short Historical account of the matter of fact . 'T is probable , that in the first Age there was a gift of Praying Extempore by immediate inspiration ; and while this gift continu'd , perhaps there might be no other Form in public Worship , but only that of the Lord's Prayer . But 't is probable , that upon the ceasing or abatement of it , Forms were compos'd after the method of those inspir'd Prayers . For 't is most likely , that even from the Apostolical Age some part at least of the public Worship was perform'd in Forms of Prayer ; because , so far as we can find , there never was any dispute among Christians concerning the lawfulness of Praying by a Form. For 't is strange that , if Forms were an innovation , such a remarkable and public innovation shou'd be introduc'd without the least contest or opposition . For tho' some innovations did creep in ; yet every one of that public nature alwaies found powerful adversaries to withstand it . But not to insist upon probabilities , wee 'l enquire into matter of fact . The Liturgies of Saint Peter , St. Mark and St. James , tho' corrupted by latter Ages , yet are doubtless of great antiquity , and probably even from the Apostles times . For besides many things , which have a strong relish of that Age , that of St. James was of great authority in the Church of Jerusalem in St. Cyril's time , who wrote a Comment upon it even in his younger years ; and 't is declar'd by (k) Proclus , and the (l) Sixth general Council to be of St. James's own Composure ; and 't was probably receiv'd in the Church of Jerusalem within 170 years after the Apostolical Age. And that there are Forms of Worship in it as ancient as the Apostles , seems highly probable ; For First , all the Form Sursum corda is there , and in St. Cyril's Comment ; and the same is in the Liturgies of Rome and Alexandria and the Constitutions of Clemens , which all agree are of great antiquity ; and St. Cyprian , who was living within an 100 years after the Apostles , (m) mentions it as a Form then us'd and receiv'd ; and St. Austin tells us , that Form is words deriv'd from the very age of the Apostles . The same is asserted by Nicephorus of the Trisagium in particular , Hist . lib. 18. c. 53. 'T is evident , that from that Primitive Age there was a Form of questions and answers prescrib'd in Baptism , from the questions and answers , which Tertull. De Resur . Carn . St. Cypr. 76.80 . Origen in Numer . Hom. 5. speak of . And if the Minister may be limited to a Form of question , why not to a Form of Prayer , there being as great a necessity to prescribe for the latter as for the former ? But that de facto there were Forms of Prayer , as well as Questions and Answers us'd in Baptism , Clemens's Constitutions affirm ; and some of the Prayers are there inserted , l. 7. And that Christians did very early use Forms of Prayer in their public Worship , is evident from the Names given to public Prayers ; for they are call'd the (n) Common-Prayer , (o) Constituted Prayers and (p) Solemn Prayers ; which last was the Title by which the Heathens distinguisht their (q) public Forms of Prayer , and consequently in the Language of that Age must signifie a public Form. (r) St. Basil fetches the Glory be to the Father , &c. from the tradition of the Apostles , and cites it from St. Clemens the Apostles Scholar , and from Dionysius of Alexandria , who was living in the year 200 ; and Clemens of Alexandria , who was living in the year 160 , sets down these words as the Christian Form of Praising God , (ſ) Praising the Father and the Son with the Holy Ghost . So that this Form is older than the time of the Arians ; for they are sharply (t) reprov'd by the Orthodox Fathers for the alteration of it . And indeed a great part of the Primitive Worship consisted of Hymns , which must necessarily be compos'd into set Forms . Tertull. Apol. cap. 2. and before him Lucian in Philop. and Justin Martyr also , Epist . ad Zen. & Heren . speak of their singing such Hymns . They spend whole nights in watching and singing of Psalms , saies Lucian ; and Pliny saies , that early in the Morning 't was their manner to sing by turns a Hymn to Christ as God ; which Hymn was doubtless of human composure , there being no Hymn to Christ in Scripture of that length , as to take up a considerable part of their public Service . Eusebius tells us , that very early there were various Psalms and Odes compos'd by Christians concerning the Divinity of Christ (u) ; and that Paulus Samosatenus was condemn'd for suppressing those Hymns that were made in the Honour of Christ , as being the composition of Men of late daies (w) ; tho' in all probability those Hymns were compos'd within much less than an hundred years after the Apostolical Age. But as for this Hymn which Pliny speaks of , it was earlier , for it cou'd not be much above ten years after the death of St. John , that Pliny gave this account of the Christians to Trajan ; and therefore to be sure the Hymn he there speaks of , was us'd in the Age of the Apostles . About the same time , Lucian makes mention of a Prayer which they us'd in their public Worship , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , beginning from the Father ; which doubtless was the Lord's Prayer : and of a famous Hymn added to the end of their Service , (x) which in all probability was the Hymn that Pliny speaks of . Since therefore the Primitive Worship , did in a great measure consist of Hymns , which were Forms of Praise intermixt with Prayer , and some of these of human composure ; this is an evident Testimony of the Primitive use of Forms . And doubtless , they who made no scruple of praying by Form in verse , cou'd not but think it lawful to pray by Form in prose . Now that Praying in Meeter or compos'd Hymns was a very early practice in the Christian Church , is evident from the Apostolical Constitutions , where it is injoin'd , Let the People sing the verses which answer adversly to one another (y) : which way of singing was so very ancient , that Eusebius (z) urges it as an Argument to prove the Essenes Christians , because they sung by turns , answering one another ; and how cou'd they thus answer to one another in their Hymns and Prayers , unless they had constant Forms of Prayer ? But that they had such Responsals in Prayer , is evident , because , when Julian for the credit of Gentilism wou'd needs dress it up , (a) after the Order of the Christian Worship ; one thing wherein he sought to imitate it was in their constituted Prayers ; that is , not in having constituted Forms of Prayer , for that the Heathen had before ; but in having such constituted Forms as the Christians had ; that is , as Nazianzen (b) explains it , a Form of Prayer to be said in parts ; for this way of Praying in parts Nicephorus (c) derives from Ignatius , who was a Scholar of the Apostles . All which to me is a plain demonstration of the great Antiquity of Forms . And that in Constantine's time , the Church us'd public Forms of Prayer , is evident from that often-cited place of Eusebius , (d) where he tells us of Constantine's composing Godly Prayers for the use of his Soldiers ; and elsewhere tells us in particular what the Prayer was ; We acknowledge thee , O God , alone , &c. (e) which is a plain evidence that it was a set Form of words . But it 's objected that this Form was compos'd only for the use of his Soldiers , who were a great part of them Heathens ; and that Constantine's composing it , is a plain evidence , that at that time there were no public Forms in the Church ; for if there had , what need Constantine have compos'd one ? To which I answer , That this Form indeed was compos'd only for his Heathen Soldiers ; for as for his Christian Soldiers , the story tells us , that he gave them liberty to go to Church (f) . And therefore all that can be gather'd hence is , that the Christian Church had no Form of Prayers for Heathen Soldiers , which is no great wonder ; for if they had , it 's very unlikely that the Heathen Soldiers wou'd have us'd it . But that they had Forms is evident , because he calls the Prayers which Constantine us'd in his Court , according to the manner of the Church of God ; ▪ (g) Authoriz'd Prayers ; which is the same Title which he (h) gave to that Form which he made for his Heathen Soldiers . And therefore if by the Authoriz'd Prayers which he prescrib'd to his Soldiers , he meant a Form of Prayers , as 't is evident he did : then by the Authoriz'd Prayers which he us'd in his Court after the manner of the Church , he must mean a Form of Prayer also . And since he had a Form of Prayer in his Court after the manner of the Church , the Church must have a Form of Prayers too . 'T is plain then , that the three first Centuries had public Forms of Prayer ; after which ( not to insist upon the Liturgies of St. Basil , St. Chrysostom and St. Ambrose ) we have undeniable testimonies of the same . See St. Chrysost . 2. ad Corinth . Homil. 18. St. Austin de Bapt. cont . Donat. lib. 6. and Concil . Carth. 3. c. 12. Concil . Milev . c. 12. Justin . Novel . 137. Pref. & 1 , 2 , 6. Nazian . Orat. in Basil 20. saies , St. Basil compos'd Orders and Forms of Prayer : and St. Basil himself , Epist . 63. reciting the Manner of the public Service , that was us'd in the Monastical Oratories of his Institution , saies , that nothing was done therein , but what was consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. Nay the Council of Laodicea , holden about the Year 364 , expresly provides , That the same Liturgy , or Form of Prayers , shou'd be alwaies us'd both Morning and Evening , Can. 18. and this Canon is taken into the Collection of the Canons of the Catholic Church ; which Collection was establish'd in the General Council of Chalcedon , in the Year 451 , by which establishment the whole Christian Church was obliged to the use of Liturgies , so far as the Authority of the General Council extends . And then in the Year 541 , these Canons were made Imperial Laws by Justinian , Novel . 131. c. 1. See Zonar . and Balsam . on can . 18. See also Smectym . Answ . to the Remonst . p. 7. Grand . deb . p. 11. and Concil . Laod. c. 15 , 19. Thus for near 600 Years after Christ we have sufficient testimony of the public use of Forms of Prayer . And from henceforth , or a little after , down to Mr. Calvin's time , all are agreed , that no Prayers but establish'd Liturgies were us'd . Nay Calvin , who Pray'd Extempore after his Lecture , alwaies us'd a Form before , Pref. ad Calv. Prael . in Min. Proph. and he compos'd a Form for the Sunday-Service , which was afterwards establish'd at Geneva . Nay he saies , for as much as concerns the Forms of Prayer , and Ecclesiastical Rites , I highly approve that it be determin'd so , as that it may not be lawful for the Ministers in their administration to vary from it ; Ep. 87. Nor is there any one Reform'd Church , but what has some public Form of Prayer ; nor was the lawfulness of Forms ever call'd in question before . Nay Mr. Ball , Dr. Owen , Mr. Baxter , Mr. Norton and Mr. Tombes do (i) expresly own them to be lawful ; and this is said (k) to be the tenent of all our ( Dissenting ) best , and most judicious Divines . It is very well known ( saies (l) one ) that the flower of our own Divines went on in this way , when they might have done otherwise , if they had pleas'd , in their Prayers before Sermons ; and we find Mr. Hildersham's Prayer before Sermon (m) Printed . This was so universally and constantly practis'd , that Mr. Clark (n) tells us , that the first Man who brought conceiv'd Prayer into use in those parts where he liv'd , was Mr. Sam. Cook , who died but in the Year 1649. Nay the chief Dissenting writers do not only assert , but they also undertake to prove the lawfulness of Forms (o) from the nature , use and ends of Prayer ; and charge the contrary opinion with Enthusiasm (p) and Novelty (q) . They grant also , 1. That Forms are not only lawful , but that there are Footsteps of this way of Worship both in the Old and New Testament , as Mr. Tombes and others have shew'd , (r) and Mr. Ainsworth ( that did otherwise argue against them ) do's confess (ſ) . 2. That they are very ancient in the Christian Church . The Christian Churches of ancient Times , for the space of this 1400 Years at least , if not from the Apostles Time , had their stinted Liturgies , saith Mr. Ball (t) : and (u) they answer Objections to the contrary . 3. That in the best reform'd , nay , in all reform'd Churches , they are not only us'd and tolerated , but also (w) useful and expedient . 4. That those amongst us , to whom the use of the Common-Prayer has been most burthensome , have from time to time , profest their liking and approbation of a stinted Liturgy , as Mr. Ball assures us (x) . That they thought it altogether unlawful to separate from Churches for the sake of stinted Forms and Liturgies , is not only frequently affirm'd by Mr. Ball (y) , but little less even by Mr. Norton , (z) who saies , It is lawful to embrace Communion with Churches , where such Forms in public Worship are in use ; neither do's it lie as a Duty on a Believer , that he disjoin and separate himself from such a Church . And they give this reason for it , that then they must separate from all Churches . So Mr. Baxter (a) , Is it not a high degree of Pride , to conclude , that almost all Christ 's Churches in the World , for these 13 hundred Years at least to this day , have offer'd such worship unto God , as that you are obliged to avoid it ? And that almost all the Catholic Church on Earth this day , is below your Communion for using Forms ? And that even Calvin , and the Presbyterians , Cartwright , Hildersham , and the Old Non-Conformists were unworthy your Communion ? As for Praying Extempore , 't was set up in England in opposition to our Liturgy . For in the Ninth Year of Q. Eliz. to seduce the People from the Church , and to serve the ends of Popery , one Friar Comin began to Pray Extempore with such fervor , that he deluded many , and was amply rewarded for it by the Pope . See Foxes and Firebrands , p. 7 , &c. After him Tho. Heath did the same , p. 17. See also Vnreason . of sep . pref . p. 11 , &c. And I hope when the Dissenters have well consider'd , whom they join with , and whose cause they advance , by decrying our Liturgy and extolling Extempore Prayers , they will see cause to think better of Forms of Prayer . Secondly , I am now to answer the Dissenters Objections against Forms of Prayer . 1. They pretend , that the Use of public Forms do's deaden the Devotion of Prayer ; whereas I doubt not to make it appear , that they do quicken Devotion much more then Extempore Prayers . 'T is plain that Forms of Prayer do fix the Minister's attention more than Extempore Prayers . For his matter and words being ready before him , he has nothing else to do but to attend his inward Devotion , which is the life of Prayer : whereas Praying Extempore forces him to attend to the Recollection of Matter , and invention of expressions ; which must more or less divert him , it being impossible to attend to several things , as closely as he may to one . 'T is true , he that uses a Form , may permit his thoughts to wander ; but then the sault is in the Man , and not in the Form ; for he converts that which in it self helps Devotion , into an occasion of indevotion . He that Praies Extempore is more bound to attend to words ; but he that Praies by Form , has better opportunities of attending to the proper business of Prayer , viz. Contrition , Sense of our Wants and dependence upon God , &c. And by being an example of these in his Prayer , the Minister do's very much excite the Devotion of the People . But 't is Objected , that while his thoughts are imploy'd in inventing the matter and words of his Prayer , they are well imploy'd ; because they are attending to the duty of Prayer , tho' they be not so fixt upon the inward Devotion of it , as they might be in the use of a Form. To this I answer , that to invent the matter and words of Prayer , is not to Pray , but to study a Prayer , which cannot be prov'd to be a part of our duty . But we believe , that when we Pray Devoutly by a Form , we discharge the whole duty of Prayer , tho' we do not invent the matter and words our selves ; and till we see the contrary prov'd , we shall always think so . If it be said , that Praying Extempore will not suffer the Minister's thoughts to wander ; I answer , that if the Minister have Devout affections , they will keep his thoughts from wandring , when he Praies by Form , as much as when he Praies Extempore ; but if he has not , he cannot utter his words from his affections either way . But 't is pretended , that Praying Extempore do's heighten the Minister's affections more than a Form. Because , say they , in reading a Form his affections follow his words , and are rais'd and excited by them ; whereas in Praying Extempore his words follow his affections . But why may not a Man , who knows before hand what he is to Pray for , be Devoutly affected with it , before he expresses it in a Form , as well as before he expresses it Extempore ? And why may not he that Praies Extempore , be as little affected with what he Praies for , before he has exprest it , as he that uses a Form ? May not a Man's tongue run before his heart either way ? But suppose it true , that in Extempore Prayer the words follow the affections , and that in a Form the affections follow the words ; do's it follow that Praying Extempore heightens the affections more than a Form ? Why may not the affections , viz. desire , &c. which follow the words , be as great as those that go before ? Especially since our Dissenters say , that expressive words do naturally quicken affections . If it be said , that the Minister cannot so well express his Devout affections in other Mens words , as in his own ; I answer , that he is the Mouth of the Congregation , and that his business is , not to express his own particular and extraordinary fervours , as the common case of the Congregation ; but so to speak , as every honest and ordinary Christian may join with him . For 't is as bad for him to express such heights of Devotion , as few or none of them are arriv'd to ; as to confess in their names such sins , as few or none of them are guilty of . Now the common sense of the Congregation may be as well express'd in another Man's words as in his own ; unless we suppose that Extempore words can more fitly express it , than those that are premeditated ; which no sober Dissenter will affirm . But , say they , the Minister's Soul is so busied in reading a Form , that it cannot be so much affected , as when he Praies Extempore . Now I leave the Reader to judge , whether being busied about the Matter , Method and Expressions of Prayer , do's not much more imploy the Ministers Soul , than bare reading ; that is , whether he that can read a Prayer without the least trouble , cannot read a Prayer more easily than invent one . However , they tell us , that Praying always in the same words , do's cloy the Attention of the People ; whereas the newness and variety of conceiv'd Prayers do's naturally awaken their Minds and keep them more sixt and intent . But I answer , that the matter of public Prayer is , and for the main will be , the same ; and therefore if the matter fixt their minds , 't wou'd as well do it in the same , as in new expressions . But if it be the Phrase , that their minds are fixt on , there is nothing in it , but an amusement of their fancies , which do's rather unfix them from the inward acts of Prayer , and distract their Devotion . Forms may be compos'd and pronounced as affectionately as Extempore Prayers , and may as well excite the People's Devotion ; but novelty of method and expression do's as much deaden the Devotion of those that are fixt upon it , as worldly business . That seeming Devotion , that is rais'd by the jingling of words , is not Devotion but Mechanism ; for a Man may be strangely affected with the words of Prayer , who has not the least spark of true Devotion to the matter of it : but if the Mind do's affect the matter of Prayer for it self , and not for the sake of the words , I cannot imagin , how new words shou'd any way advantage its Devotion , unless they were to express new matter . Thus it appears , that even what is urg'd in behalf of Extempore Prayers , do's plead much more for Forms ; but then there are sundry advantages peculiar to Forms , which Extempore Prayers cannot pretend to . For 1. People may consider the matter of a Form , and endeavour to affect their minds with it before hand ; and so they may Pray with greater preparation . 2. People may join in a Form with more understanding , than in an Extempore Prayer , wherein the Minister is forced to use such expressions as come first to hand ; and sometimes he is forced to use a hard word , which half of the Congregation do not know , because an easier do's not come to his mind ; besides many other inconveniencies , which 't is impossible alwaies to avoid . Now in composing public Forms more care will be taken that the words may be intelligible , than there can be in Extempore Prayer . And truly , if the words be not intelligible , the People's Prayer must be as much interrupted as if the Minister spake in an unknown tongue . 3. Men may join in a Form with much more Faith , and Hope of being heard , than they can in Extempore Prayer . For they may be satisfied before hand , that the matter of a Form is good ; but they cannot be so satisfied of an Extempore Prayer ; considering that the Minister is many times a stranger , and may be perhaps Erroneous , Rash , Ignorant , &c. And even those Ministers whom they know , may sometimes mistake their Passion for their Zeal , and reake their Anger or their Faction in their Prayers , or let drop an Errour , before they are aware , or express themselves so , as an honest mind may not be able to join . So that in joining with an Extempore Prayer a Man must judge what is said , before he can consent to it : and if he meet with a rub , the Minister goes on in the mean time , and the Man is left behind at a loss , and perhaps confounded , before he can join again ; and no sooner perhaps is he well fixt , but he is troubled again with the same inconveniency : all which is easily prevented by the use of Forms . 4. Forms do not divert the affections of the People from the Matter of Prayer , as Extempore Prayers do , which disturb Devotion , whenever the Minister hesitates , or blunders , or expresses himself improperly ; for then some will be pitying , others contemning , others carping , &c. And if he perform well , some will admire his Phrase , Judgment , Readiness , &c. all which things do call off their minds from the Matter . 5. The Decency and solemnity of public Worship , which things are highly advantageous to the Devotion of the people are better secur'd by Forms , than by Extempore Prayers , where they depend wholly upon the Minister . For if he happens to be a Man of a bad memory , or apt to blunder , or be dull , &c. then the Devotion of the Congregation may be turn'd into scorn and laughter ; and of this I have seen too many sad experiments . But suppose him to be an able and Pious person , yet he may be liable to indispositions of body , dulness , inadvertency , &c. with outward cares and accidents ; and if he be , he must many times Pray confusedly , or with broken , indecent expressions , and omit a great deal of the matter . Sometimes he will be at a loss , and be forced to use fulsome repetitions ; and how is it possible almost , but that a great deal of flat and empty nonsence , undigested conceptions and unadvis'd expressions shou'd escape from his lips , before he is aware ? And this , if he has a grain of modesty , must put him into greater confusion , and so amaze him , that he will be hardly able to recover himself . Now is it not a hard case that the Devotions of Five hundred or a thousand Persons must be disturb'd by one Man's disorders ? For they must either Pray after him , or not Pray at all . But all these evils are prevented by set public Forms . 6. Those that join in a Form , may be better secur'd of the reality and sincerity of their own Devotion . For they knowing before-hand the expressions of the Form , are not so much surpriz'd with the Phrases ; and therefore , if they find themselves affected , may more safely conclude , 't is the Matter and not the words , that moves them . Whereas a Man that is tickled with the words of an Extempore Prayer may fancy himself to be very devout , when he has nothing of true Devotion in him . I might add more ; but I think these things are enough to convince an unprejudiced person , that Forms of Prayer are so far from hindring , that they very much help Devotion . But if any Man shall still object , that he finds by experience , that Forms do actually deaden his Devotions ; because his affections are flat and heavy , when he uses them , but he is almost transported when he hears a Man Pray Extempore ; I beseech him to consider , whether his experience be not founded in prejudice , and whether his prejudice ought to prescribe to the whole Church . 'T is certain , other Men find by experience , that joining with a Form do's help their Devotion ; so that here is experience against experience . Now since two contrary experiences cannot proceed from the nature of the thing , therefore one must proceed from the temper of the Man. Now I have prov'd , and many Men find by experience , that Forms do help Devotion ; and therefore if he do's not find the same , the fault must be in himself ; and I doubt not , but if he will consider the matter impartially , he will soon be of the same opinion . For we have Scripture and Reason on our side ; but he is led by his passions , which may be charm'd and flatter'd , and will betray him into strong delusions . 'T is plain , 't is not the matter of the Extempore Prayer , that affects him ; for that is the same as in a Form : and if he be taken with the chiming of words , 't is but a sensitive delight ; and he must not make a Division in the Church , only to gratifie his fancy . Besides , I desire him strictly to examine his Conscience , whether he has not often been as dull at a conceiv'd Prayer , as at the public Forms . If so , then the person is to be blam'd , and not the Form ; and he is guilty of a double iniquity , who divides the Church without sufficient cause , and charges his own formality upon a good and wholesome constitution . 2. They pretend , that Praying in a Form of Words do's stint and limit the Spirit of Prayer . But before I answer this Objection , it will be necessary to explain , 1. What it is that the Scripture attributes to the Spirit in Prayer . 2. What is meant by stinting or limiting the Spirit in Prayer . First Then , what is it that the Scripture attributes to the Spirit in Prayer ? I answer , There are some things attributed to him , which were Extraordinary and Temporary ; and others that were Ordinary , fixt and standing . The Extraordinary and Temporary were the immediate Inspiration of the matter of Prayer , and an ability to express it in known or unknown Languages . We read in the Old Testament of Prayers and Praises , which for the matter of them , were immediately inspir'd . Thus Pray'd Hannah , who , as the Targum paraphrases it , Pray'd by the Spirit of Prophesy , that is , by immediate Inspiration . For Praying and Praising by immediate Inspiration are frequently call'd Prophesying ; 1 Sam. 10.5 . Numb . 11.25 . 1 Chron. 25.1 . Luc. 1.67 . for the matter of all those Prayers and Praises , together with those in the Book of Psalms , and sundry others recorded in Scripture , was immediately dictated by the Holy Ghost . But after the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost , wherein the gift of Tongues was communicated , 't is certain , that not only the matter , but the very Language of their Prayers was immediately Inspir'd . This gift was peculiar to the Primitive Ages of Christianity ; because the design of it was , not only to enable the first planters of the Gospel to perform their office in the Languages of the several Nations they were sent to , but also to be a sign from God , as other Miracles were , for the confirmation of the Gospel . Tongues were for a sign — to them that believe not , 1 Cor. 14.22 . and therefore since all Miracles were Extraordinary , and after a time to cease , certainly this Miraculous gift of Prayer was so too . However , because many Dissenters think it ( not an extraordinary , but ) a Standing Gift , which the Spirit will communicate to all successive Ages of the World ; I desire them to consider , 1. That there is no promise of such a gift by vertue of the New Covenant , and therefore no reason to expect the continuance of it ; and 't is presumtion to promise our selves , what God has not promis'd us . For as for the Spirit of Supplications , Zac. 12.10 . 't is plain , that 't is the same with the Spirit of Grace , or of inward Piety and devotion . But that there is no such Promise in the New Covenant , is evident from what is acknowledg'd on all hands ; viz. That there are many good Christians , who cou'd never pretend to any such Inspiration . For all good Christians have a Right to the blessings of the New Covenant ; and I am very confident , 't wou'd be look'd upon by all sober Dissenters , as a very rash and unjust censure , to affirm , that a Man cannot be a good Christian , who do's not Pray by immediate Inspiration , but is alwaies fain to depend either on his own invention , or a Form. 2. That as there is no Promise , so there is no need of any such immediate Inspiration . 'T is true , the Spirit will assist us in all necessary things , wherein our duty and Spiritual Life are concern'd ; but 't is an unwarrantable presumtion to expect an immediate Inspiration in Prayer , because there is no necessity of it . For , 1. As for the Matter of our Prayers , the Holy Spirit has already sufficiently reveal'd it to us in the Gospel , and as plainly instructed us what we are to pray for , as he can be suppos'd to do by any immediate Inspiration . And therefore , to suppose after all , a necessity of immediate Inspiration , is in effect to suppose , that We have neither reason enough to understand the sense of plain Words , nor memory enough to retain it . But , say the Dissenters , We know not what to Pray for as we ought , but the Spirit it self maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered , Rom. 8.26 . and therefore we cannot in all cases know the Matter of our Prayers without immediate Inspiration . But I answer , that the words relate not to the matter , but to the Manner of our Prayers . What to Pray for as we ought , we know not ; that is , we know not how to Pray with that fervency and resignation , which we ought , unless the Spirit assist us . 2. As for the words of Prayer , there is no necessity they shou'd be immediately dictated to us , since we may use Forms ; and those Forms ( with small additions ) may be adapted to all particular Cases and Circumstances . 3. If Prayers are Inspir'd , they are equal to Scripture , and are infallible and the Word of God ; because whatever God inspires , must needs be so . But this , I am sure , no sober Dissenter will presume to say . 4. There is no sign of this immediate Inspiration remaining among us . Heretofore all Inspiration was attested by Miracles ; but the pretended Inspiration of Prayer has no Miracles to warrant it . Whereas if the Inspiration be continu'd , 't is requisite that proper signs shou'd be continu'd , that so we may be able to distinguish that which is Divine from that which is Natural or Diabolical . If it be said , that the Scripture is sufficient to distinguish them ; I answer , that tho' the Scripture may be sufficient to distinguish , whether the Matter of the Inspiration be true or false : yet it 's not sufficient to distinguish the Inspiration it self , whether it be Divine or Natural , or Diabolical . For , 1. 'T is certain , a Man may Pray agreeably to Scripture by Natural Inspiration , that is , by a Natural or accidental fervency of temper , as might be prov'd by many instances . And in this case how shall he know by Scripture , whether his present Inspiration be Natural or Divine ? 'T will be said perhaps ; that God Inspires good Men with fervency in Prayer , and yet this fervency sometimes proceeds from temper of body ; and why do's not the want of a sign to distinguish , conclude against the Inspiration of fervency , as well as against the Inspiration of the Matter and Words of Prayer ? I answer , that we have a Promise of the Spirit 's assistance for the fervency of our Prayers , but not for the Matter or Words of them . Besides , we may easily distinguish , whether the Inspiration of fervency be Natural or Divine , by our own sense . If it be accompany'd with a fixt and constant Devotion of Soul , 't is Divine ; but if it be only a sudden fit , and leaves us habitually indevout , we have just reason to think it Natural . But we cannot distinguish by Scripture between one and the other ; for both may be agreeable to Scripture . And can it be imagin'd , that had God meant to continue the gift of Inspiration to us , he wou'd have left us thus in the dark concerning it , without any certain sign to distinguish , whether it be from his Spirit , or from an ill-affected spleen , or a fever ? 2. As for Diabolical Inspirations , we have sundry instances , such as Wier , Hacket , D. George and John Basilides Duke of Russia , who had such gifts of Prayer , as ravish'd the Auditors , and in the opinion of the most impartial seem'd to exceed the power of Nature , and made many think them immediately Inspir'd by God. Now since by such Inspirations the Devil may sometimes serve his own ends , by recommending false Teachers , &c. we may reasonably suppose he do's use that method . And since he may Inspire Men with such Matter of Prayer as is agreeable to Scripture , we cannot by Scripture certainly distinguish between his Inspiration and that of the Spirit . But surely 't is blasphemy to think , that if God had continu'd this gift of Inspiration , he wou'd leave us without a sign to distinguish it from that which is Diabolical . And since there is no sign , we have all the reason in the world to think the gift is ceas'd . But farther , we have not only no certain sign of the Divine Inspiration of conceiv'd Prayers , but many very certain ones of the contrary : I will instance in four . 1. The great impertinence , nonsence , and rudeness ( to say no worse ) that are sometimes mingled with these Extempore Prayers , and which we cannot attribute to the Holy Ghost without blasphemy . 2. That they are so generally tinctur'd with the particular Opinions of those that offer them . Whether this be not so , I appeal to all the world ; and if it be so , then surely they are not Inspir'd . For either we must suppose this gift of Inspiration to be consin'd to one party , which wou'd be to stint the Spirit with a witness ; or else we must blasphemously say the Spirit Inspires contradictions , and indites contrary Prayers to Men of opposite Parties . 3. Another plain sign that conceiv'd Prayers are not Inspir'd , is , that that which gives them the reputation of being so , is not so much the Matter , as the manner of expressing them . As for the Matter , I suppose the Dissenters will not deny , but our Forms may equal at least , if not excell their conceiv'd Prayers : and therefore all the difference must be in the Manner . But are conceiv'd Prayers the more Inspir'd , because the words are Extempore ? Did God continue the gift for no other end , but that Men might ask those things Extempore , which they might as well have asked in a Form ? Or are they more Inspired , because they do generally more enlarge , and express the same Matter over again in different words ? Was the Spirit continu'd only to vary phrases ? Our Saviour forbids us to use vain repetitions ( or as Munster's Hebrew reads it , to multiply words above what is fit and seasonable ) thinking we shall be heard for our much speaking ; and therefore these enlargements are so far from being signs of their immediate Inspiration , that supposing the Spirit to be of the same mind with Christ , they are generally signs of the contrary . 4. That extraordinary manner and way of expressing them , for which they are thought to be Inspir'd , ordinarily proceeds from natural causes , viz. Natural Enthusiasm or present fervour of temper . For , 1. The Dissenters confess , it comes upon them much oftner in their public , than in their private Devotions . And the reason is plain , because the passions of the Congregation do so excite their affections , and the reverence of an Auditory obliges them so much to wreck their inventions , that their Spirits are many times transported into raptures . 2. They are not so fluent in the beginning , as when they have Pray'd a while ; the reason of which is this , because the Spirits do not move so briskly , till they are chafed and heated with Labour . Then do they naturally raise the fancy , and render the invention more copious and easy . And certainly 't is unwarrantable to attribute that to Inspiration , which do's so apparently proceed from natural causes . Thus have I shewn , what the extraordinary operations of the Spirit are , and that they are not to be pretended to in these Times ; I proceed in the next place to shew very briefly , what those ordinary operations are , which he has Promis'd to continue to the end of the World. They are therefore the proper graces and affections of Prayer , such as shame , sorrow , hope , &c. But as for the expressions of Prayer , they are of no account with God , but as they signify to him the graces and affections of it . Now can any Man imagin , that those affections will be the less acceptable to God , because they are presented in a Form , and not Extempore ? Will a Father deny Bread to his Child , because he askt it to day in the same words , that he did yesterday ? Is God more taken with words , than with affections ? Certainly his withdrawing the Inspiration of words , and continuing the Inspiration of affections , prove the contrary . Now that God do's continue the Inspiration of Devout affections in Prayer , is manifest from Gal. 4.6 . Jude 20. and Rom. 8.26 . where the Spirit is said to make intercession for us with groans , which cannot be utter'd , that is , with most flagrant affections . For these words do not , as some persons wou'd persuade us , prove the Inspiration of the Words of Prayer ; because the Inspiration of those things that are too big for words and cannot be uttered , cannot mean the Inspiration of words : but this Intercession of the Spirit signifies his exciting such affections , as make our Prayers acceptable . For as Christ , who is our Advocate in Heaven , enforces our Prayers with his own Intercessions : so the Spirit , who is our Advocate upon Earth , begets those affections , which render our Prayers prevalent . And these are the standing and ordinary operations , which the Scripture attributes to the Spirit in Prayer . Secondly , Stinting or limiting the Spirit is a phrase , that is never mention'd in Scripture or Antiquity ; and therefore 't is a very new objection against Forms of Prayer , which I have shewn to be warranted both by Scripture and Antiquity . However , what the Dissenters mean by it is this ; viz. that by confining our selves to a Form of words , we ( stint or limit , that is , ) restrain the Spirit from giving us that assistance , which he ordinarily vouchsafes in conceiv'd Prayer . And now having explain'd the Two forgoing particulars , the answer to this Objection will be very easy . For if the Spirit be stinted or restrain'd by Forms of Prayer , it must be either from Inspiring the words , or from exciting the affections of Prayer . But I have prov'd that Forms are so far from restraining the Devotion of Prayer , that they do very much promote and improve it ; and as for the Words , I have prov'd , that since the first propagation of the Gospel the Spirit has withdrawn the immediate and Miraculous Inspiration of them . And since that cannot be stinted which is not , therefore the Inspiration of the Words of Prayer is not stinted by Forms . 3. 'T is Objected , that public Forms are a sinful neglect of the Ministerial gift of Prayer . For , the Dissenters say , the gift of Prayer is an ability to express our minds in Prayer , which God has given to Ministers , as a means of public Devotion ; and therefore they may not omit the exercise of it , by using Forms of other Mens Composure . Now to this I answer , 1. That supposing that 't is a fault in Ministers to omit the exercise of their ability , yet the People are not to be charged with it . God will not reject the People's Devotions , because the Minister is to blame . He only is accountable for that ; for the People do not join with him in his omission , but in that which is acceptable to God. 2. This gift of Prayer is either natural or acquir'd . For certainly 't is not Inspir'd at Ordination ; because the Scripture do's not promise any such thing , nor is there any experience of it . Nay the Dissenting Ministers must own , that just before their Ordination they were as able to express the Devotions of a Congregation , as they were just after ; which shews that they had no new ability to Pray Inspir'd in their Ordination . Now since this gift or ability is nothing more than a quickness of invention and speech , which is either natural , or acquir'd by art and practice ; therefore 't is no otherwise the gift of God , than our natural strength , or skill in History , or the like . All that God has Promis'd his Ministers , is to concur with their honest endeavours , as far as is necessary to the discharge of their Office : and to suppose that this cannot be done without Praying Extempore , is to take the Matter in question for granted . 3. This freedom of utterance is never call'd the gift of Prayer in Scripture . Praying in unknown Languages is once call'd a gift , but Praying in our own Language is never call'd so . Therefore 't is plain that the gift of readiness of speech is not appropriated by God to Prayer , but left in common to all other honest uses , that it can be apply'd to ; and it may as well be call'd the Gift of Pleading at the Bar , or of Disputing , or Conversation , as the gift of Prayer . Accordingly we find , that those who have this gift in Prayer , have it also upon other occasions ; which proves , that 't is not appropriated to Prayer . 4. Since this gift of expressing our minds is not appropriated to Prayer , it may be as lawfully omitted in Prayer , as in any other purpose which 't is design'd for . For if it be unlawful to omit the use of the gift of Elocution , then he who has the gift , may not lawfully use a Form in Petitioning his Prince , or in a Court of Justice : but if it be lawful to omit it in these cases , as a Man sees occasion , then it is equally lawful to omit it in Prayer . In short , if a Man has two gifts , he may use which he pleases ; and since we have other means of Prayer , none is obliged to use his ability to pray Extempore . 5. Using a Form is as much a means of public Devotion as praying Extempore ; because the end of public Prayer is at least as effectually serv'd by a Form , as by a conceiv'd Prayer . Now since there are two means of Prayer , and both cannot be us'd at the same time , therefore one may be lawfully omitted ; and consequently the use of a Form , which is one means , is not a sinful neglect of the other . 4. The last Objection is , that the Common Cases and wants of Christians cannot be so well express'd in one constant Form , as in conceiv'd Prayers ; because the circumstances of Men are infinitely variable , and require sutable Petitions and Thanksgivings , which the Minister cannot otherwise provide than by praying Extempore . To this I answer , 1. That the Common Cases and necessities of Christians are for the Main alwaies the same , and therefore may be more fully comprehended in a Form , than in an Extempore Prayer . For public Prayers , which are offer'd up in the Name of the whole Congregation , ought not to descend to particular Cases , but only to the Common Cases of all , and what every one may truly and sincerely join with . Now a Form will express them much better than an Extempore Prayer , which is subject to many omissions . 2. Forms can make as good provision for Extraordinary cases , as Extempore Prayer . For , as for those that can be foreseen , such as the want of rain , fair weather , &c. there may be Forms compos'd for them afore-hand : and as for others that cannot be fore-seen , Forms may be provided , when they happen ; and this has ever been done in our Church . 3. If Forms must not be us'd , because they do not alwaies reach Extraordinary Cases , certainly Extempore Prayers ought not to be us'd , because by reason of omissions , they will not alwaies reach even Ordinary Cases . In a word , it appears that all Extraordinary Cases may be very well provided for by Forms ; but supposing it otherwise , yet since it has been prov'd at large , that the use of Forms is upon sundry accounts of great advantage to the public Devotion , 't is unreasonable to spoil the Church of them , and leave her to the mercy of Extempore effusions , only for the sake of a few contingencies , which may happen but very rarely , if at all , in a whole Age. III. I am now to prove in the last place , that the imposition of Forms may be lawfully comply'd with ; and for this a very few words will suffice . For since the use of public Forms is lawful in it self , therefore it may be lawfully comply'd with ; because I have shewn in the Second Chapter , that a Man may lawfully do a lawful thing , when 't is injoin'd by Authority . And now I hope , it is evident to all impartial Readers , that Forms of Prayer are not only lawful , but expedient also . CHAP. IV. Objections against our Morning and Evening Service and Litany Answer'd . HAving justified Forms of Prayer in general , my duty and method oblige me to justify that of the Church of England in particular . I must confess , I have alwaies thought the Liturgy of the Church of England to be such , as wou'd rather have invited Protestants to our Communion , than have kept them from it . And I believe , if the Dissenters wou'd seriously read over Dr. Beverege's Sermon concerning the Excellency and usefulness of the Common-Prayer , they wou'd go near to be of the same mind . But alas ! this very Liturgy is that which many persons are incens'd against . It has been cry'd down as Idolatrous , Popish , Superstitious , &c. 'T is true , we do not now so often hear those bitter exclamations of Rome and Babylon , Baal and Dagon ; for the Common-Prayer is not now esteem'd such an abominable thing , as some ignorant and heady Zealots were wont to count it : but yet some Objections are still insisted upon , to which I hope to return a fair answer . 1. Then 't is Objected , that the Confessions of sin in our Liturgy are too general ; and that there are many particular sins , which ought to have been distinctly confess'd , of which there is no mention . But I desire the Objectors to consider , that there is hardly any thing in public worship , which requires more caution and prudence in the ordering of it , than that confession of sin , which is to be made by the whole Congregation . 'T is hard to prevent its being either too general or too particular . The reason is , because such different persons must join in it , and the sins of some are more numerous and grievous than the sins of others ; so that all persons cannot possibly make the same particular confession . But I think our confessions , viz. the daily one and that in the Communion-Office , are so judiciously fram'd , as to avoid both extreams : and I am persuaded , all persons may profitably use them . However , the confession of sin after the Minister has recited each of the Ten Commandments , is as particular , as can reasonably be desir'd ; and by this a Man may confess all his known offences in thought , word or deed . If a Man must not use a confession , that is possible to be mended , he must never confess at all : and if a Form of confession were compos'd by the wisest Dissenters , I suppose no more wou'd be pretended , but that it might be profitably us'd . Now this may be said of our Form , and ought to end the dispute . Indeed there are examples of Jeremiah , Nehemiah , &c. confessing such sins as they were not guilty of : but this was done upon solemn humiliation for those known and public Idolatries of the Nation , which had brought God's heavy judgments upon them , or for common and scandalous transgressions afterward . They consider'd themselves as a part of the Community which had provok'd God ; and they bare a part in the Calamity and in the confession , as if they had offended as greatly as their Country-men . But I conceive there is a great deal of difference between those confessions upon such public humiliations , and those that are fit for the Ordinary Service of the Church . I may add , that particular confessions are more properly the matter of private Devotion ; and if we did seriously practise strict examination and secret contrition in our Closets , we shou'd then find our affections prepar'd to comply with those more general confessions of sin , which we make with the whole Congregation . And we shou'd then have less reason to complain , that those confessions are too general and not apt to move us ; because this wou'd cure the deadness of our hearts , which are commonly most to blame , when we find fault with the Means , that God has provided for us . 2. The next Objection is the shortness of our Collects , by reason of which 't is pretended , that the Prayer is often suddenly broken off , and then begun again : and this is thought not so agreeable to the gravity wherewith this duty ought to be perform'd , nor so likely a means of exciting Reverence and Devotion in the People , as one continu'd Form of Prayer , that might be as long as all those put together . To this I answer , 1. That the mere shortness of a Prayer is not to be blam'd ; since that wou'd disparage the Form , which Christ taught his Disciples . 2. That 't will be hard to prove , that many of these short Prayers being offer'd up to God one immediately after another , is either not so grave or not so edifying , as one continu'd Form. For the work of Praying is as much continu'd all the while , as if there were but one continu'd Form ; because we pass from one Petition to another , or from one matter of invocation to another , as immediately as if the distinct Forms were all brought into the compass of one . Nay the attention of the People is rather help'd by the frequency of saying Amen : and their Godly disposition of mind , which is the best thing in Prayer , may be kept alive and more effectually secur'd , by calling upon the Name of God and pleading the Merits of Christ so often as we do . Besides , the invocation of God somewhat often by his attributes , maintains in our minds a reverent sense of his Majestic Presence ; which we all know , is needful to make us pray as we ought : and the frequency of mentioning Christ's Merits and Mediation , strengthens our faith and assurance that we shall be heard . 'T is also the peculiar Character of Christian Devotion ; and distinguishes us from the Papists , in declaring our detestation of calling upon God in the Name of Saints , or any other but that of Christ . If it be said that we say Amen , and break off our Prayers too often ; I reply , that all wise and humble Men will submit themselves in that case to the judgment of their superiours . 3. Some except against the repetition of the Lord's Prayer , and of Glory be to the Father , &c. and of Lord have mercy upon us , and the like ; because they think our Saviour forbids it by saying , when ye pray , use not vain repetitions . But it appears by our Saviour's caution against vain repetitions , that some repetitions are not vain , and consequently not forbidden . This must be suppos'd , because he himself , when in his Agony , pray'd thrice in the same words . Now Christ forbids the fault of the Heathens , whose vain repetitions proceeded from an affectation of speaking much , or from a belief that God wou'd not help them , unless they repeated the same thing over in a tedious manner : but the repetition of good Prayers is nothing like their practice . Repetitions are not vain , if two things be regarded ; 1. That the matter be very weighty , and apt to move those pious affections , which God is most pleas'd with in our Addresses to him ; and in this respect , I dare say , our repetitions are secur'd from vanity . 2. That they be fram'd with judgment , that they come in fitly and in due place , and not too often . And these rules are observ'd in our Liturgy ; for as none did ever blame the disposal of our repetitions , so none can justly blame the sequency of them . For our repetitions are very few ; but if our number be too great , what shall we think of the 136 Psalm , where His mercy endureth forever , is repeated 26 times ? To conclude this matter , I desire those , who do not yet approve our repetition of the Lord's Prayer , &c. to consider , whether it be so easy to spend the time it takes up more profitably , than by joining in good earnest with the Congregation in these Prayers .. 4. Some persons dislike the Responsals of the Congregation , and the People's saying the Confessions and the Lord's Prayer after the Minister , and their alternate reciting the Psalms and Hymns , and some petitions in the daily Service . Now I beg these Men to consider , what has been often said , viz. that this way is apt to check a wandring Spirit , to help attention and quicken a lively zeal in God's Service , whilst we invite and provoke one another to pray and give thanks . They say indeed , that the Minister is appointed to be the mouth of the People in God's public Service : but to this I answer , 1. That granting the Minister to be appointed for the mouth of the People , yet it must not be so interpreted , as to make all Vocal Prayer and thanksgiving in Religious Assemblies unlawful to the People . For then the People must not say Amen , which is a short responsal to the Minister ; nor must they join in singing Psalms , which oftentimes contain matter of Prayer . 2. The Scripture do's not say , that the Minister is the mouth of the People to God , or that no Prayer must be offer'd up in Religious Assemblies , otherwise than by the mouth of the Minister . 'T is true , the Minister is the mouth of the People in all those Prayers which he utters for them ; and because these are many more than what the People themselves utter , he may be said to be their mouth to God comparatively , but not absolutely . 'T is true also , that the Minister is appointed for the People in all public Services appertaining to God , if this be understood for the most part , or of all with little exception . Some public Services are pronounced by him only : and as for the rest , 't is fit he shou'd ever utter most of them ; and that in those wherein the People have their part , he shou'd ever go before and lead them , and guide the whole performance ; which is all taken care for in our Liturgy . Nay the Dissenters themselves do not utterly debar the People from all Vocal Prayer and Thanksgiving of their own in God's solemn Worship . For they allow the People to sing Psalms ; and why then may they not bear a part in the Hymns and Psalms by alternate responses ? I cannot see , why singing or not singing shou'd make such a difference . 'T were better , if they were every where sung ; because it is more sutable to the design of them , than bare reciting is : but if they be not sung , the next use of them , that is most agreeable to their nature and design , is reciting them by answering in turns , as the Custom is with us ; for this is much nearer to singing , than the Minister's reciting all himself . But , say they , the People's verse is in a manner lost to some of the Congregation ; since in the confus'd murmur of so many voices nothing can be distinctly heard To this I answer , that those who can read , may bring Books ; and those that cannot , may attend to those that are near . Nay I have been credibly inform'd , that some devout People that cou'd never read , have attain'd to an ability of reciting most of the Psalms without book , by often hearing them in those Churches where they are alternately recited . I shall add , that for the most part , the Psalms are recited alternately in those Churches only , where it may be reasonably presum'd , that the whole Congregation can read , very few excepted . Now if the People may join in Vocal Praise , why may they not also join in Vocal Prayer ? If it be said , there is some example or warrant in Scripture for the one , but not for the other ; it seems to be a good answer , that there is such a parity of reason , as that the express warrant of Scripture for the one , is an imply'd warrant for the other . I have already shewn , Chap. 3. that the People's joining in Vocal Prayer was very anciently practis'd ; and if this was the Primitive way , 't is probable , that it was the way in the Apostles times . I know , 't is objected , that the People's speaking to God in the Church is disorderly , and a breaking in upon the Minister's office . But will they say , that the Children of Israel intrench'd upon the Priest , when they all bowed themselves upon the Pavement , and worshipped the Lord , and prais'd him , saying , for he is good , for his mercy endureth for ever ; 2 Chron. 7.3 ? Ecclesiastical Order is secur'd by the Minister's presiding in God's public Worship , and guiding the performance of it : but not to allow the People to make an Audible confession of sin after the Minister , nor to utter some few affectionate Petitions , and those very short , to which they are also invited and ●●ted by him , seems rather to favour of an affectation of undue superiority over the People , than to proceed from any fear of the Minister's office being invaded . Some urge , that Women are forbidden to speak in the Church , 1 Cor. 14.34 . but this is strangely misapply'd to the Matter in hand . For 't is plain , that the speaking mention'd by the Apostle , signifies nothing but Prophesying , Interpreting , Preaching and Instructing ; and that the reason , why he will not allow this to the Woman , is , because Preaching implies Authority , whereas the Woman's part is obedience and subjection . They that will read the whole Chapter , will find that this is the meaning of St. Paul. 5. I proceed in the next place to consider , whether there be any just cause to find fault with the reading of the Apocryphal Lessons in our Church . Now if Sermons and Catechizing be allowable , besides the Word of God ; why may not some Apocryphal Lessons be read , which contain excellent Rules of life ? Especially since those Writings were greatly esteemed by the Church in its purest Ages , when they and other human writings also were publicly read , as well as the Scriptures : and those Chapters of the Old Testament , which are omitted , do either recite Genealogies , or the Rules of the Levitical Service , or matters of fact deliver'd in other Chapters that are read , or which are hard to be understood . If it be said , that because the Scripture is all of Divine Authority , 't is more profitable to read any part of that , than any other good Lesson ; I answer , that then no place will be left for Sermons , which are no more of Divine Authority , than the Apocryphal Lessons . There is no danger of any person 's mistaking the Apocryphal Lessons for Canonical Scripture , because the Church speaks so plainly in her Sixth Article : nor do we read them otherwise , than the antient Church did . I shall only add , that no Apocryphal Lesson is read upon any Lord's Day in the Year ; and as for other exceptions , I refer the Reader to Dr. Falkener's Libertas Eccles . p. 164 , &c. 6. If any object against our Standing at the Creed ; Mr. Baxter saies , his judgment is for it , where it is required , and where not doing it wou'd be aivisive and scandalous . Nay , elsewhere he saies , that 't is a convenient praising gesture , &c. See his Christ . Direct . p. 858. I proceed now to the Vindication of the Litany , against which 't is pleaded , 1. That the People utter the Words of invocation in the Litany for the most part , the Minister all the while suggesting the matter of it to them . But this Objection is of no force , if what I have said concerning the lawfulness of allowing the People an interest in Vocal Prayer , be admitted . If it be said , that the People bear too considerable a part , to the disparagement of the Minister's office ; I answer , that 't is a great mistake ; For 1. tho' the People say Good Lord deliver us , and We beseech thee to hear us Good Lord ; yet the Minister saies the other , and the far greater part of the Prayer . 2. They are but these Two short and known Petitions , which are excepted against : and if the People may be allowed any part in Vocal Prayer , I know of nothing more proper than these ; nor are they repeated , but when they are apply'd to new and distinct matter . Besides , they relieve our attention , and cherish our warm affections in Prayer : and I could almost appeal to the keenest of our Adversaries , whether , if Good Lord deliver us were apply'd but once in gross to that part of the Litany , we shou'd not be more apt to languish in the offering it up , than as it is now ordered . But , 3. 'T is plain , that in those Prayers , the Minister has the principal and guiding part , in that he utters all the distinct matter of the Prayer , which the People do not ; whereas he utters words of invocation as well as they . And consider , I pray , whether if the People were to utter that which is the Minister's part now , and the Minister to say that only which is theirs ; we shou'd not have more grievous complaints , that the Minister's authority was slighted in the whole design ; since he seem'd only to learn from the People , what the Congregation was to pray for . 2. 'T is Objected , that we pray to be deliver'd from all deadly sin , which seems to imply , that there are some sins which are not deadly . Now in answer to this , it is by some truly enough said , that these words do not necessarily imply a distinction between sins that are , and sins that are not deadly . But admitting that such a distinction were intended , yet we must observe , that tho' all sin be in its own nature deadly or damnable ; yet thro' the Mercy of God and the Merits of Christ , sins of mere infirmity are not imputed , and therefore not deadly to us . But there are some sins so heinous , that he who commits them , is thereby put into a damnable state : and 't is of such sins as these that this passage is to be understood ; as appears by Deadly Sin being added to Fornication , from Fornication and all other Deadly Sin , Good Lord deliver us . 3. Some are offended with our praying against Sudden Death . But why shou'd we not by Sudden Death understand our being taken out of this World , when we are not fit to die ? For sometimes a thing is said to be Sudden to us , when we are not prepar'd for it . And in this sence can any good Christian find fault with the Petition ? But suppose that by Sudden Death we mean what is commonly understood by it , that is , a Death of which a Man has not the least warning by Sickness ; are there not Reasons why even good Men may desire not to die suddenly ? May they not , when they find themselves drawing towards their end , by their good Instructions and Admonitions , make Impressions upon their Friends , Companions , and Relations , to the bettering of them ? May not their Counsels be then more effectual with them , than ever they were before ? And is it not reasonable to believe they will be so ? As for themselves , may not the warning they have of approaching Death be improv'd to make them more sit to die , than they were in their perfect Health ? In a word , he that thinks himself to have sufficiently perfected holiness in the fear of God , and not to stand in need of those acts of Self-Examination , Humiliation , and Devotion , by which Good Men improve the Warning of Death , which Mortal Sickness or Extreme Age gives them ; let him suspend his Act , and refuse to join with us , when we pray God to death· 4. Some are offended , that we pray to be deliver'd By the Mystery of Christ's Holy Incarnation , &c. By his Agony and bloody Sweat , by his Cross and Passion , &c. And by the Coming of the Holy Ghost . Some say this is Swearing , others Conjuring , and I know not what . To these I answer , that when we say , By the Mystery of thy holy Incarnation , and by thy Cross and Passion , &c. Good Lord deliver us ; we implore Christ , who has already shew'd such inestimable goodness towards us , by taking our Nature into his Divinity , to Die upon the Cross , to be Buried , to Rise again , to ascend into Heaven , and there to intercede with the Father for us , and by sending the Holy Ghost to qualifie the Apostles for their great Work of carrying the Word of Salvation into the World : I say , we implore him who hath already done such mighty things for our Salvation , and we plead with him by that goodness which he has already given us such great demonstrations of , by those Wonders of Mercy that he has wrought for us , that he wou'd now go on to deliver us by his powerful Grace from those Evils which we pray against . And this is so reasonable , so devout and affectionate , so humble and thankful a way of praying , that I am sorry that any who call themselves Believers shou'd be so ignorant as not to understand it , or so profane and unlike what they pretend to be , as to deride it . To conclude , I must confess , that of all the Prayers in our Liturgy , that are of humane composition , I shou'd be most unwilling to part with the Litany . It seems to be , what it was design'd to be , A Form of Prayer apt to excite our most intense and fervent desires of God's Grace and Mercy . The whole office is fram'd , with respect both to matter and contrivance , for the raising of the utmost Devotion of good Christians , and for the warming of the coldest hearts by the heat of the Congregation . And in such a disposition it is most fit to express our Charity , by praying for others , even all sorts of men , as distinctly and particularly as public Prayers will bear . CHAP. V. Of Infant-Baptism . BEfore I proceed to the Vindication of our Office of Baptism , I think it is proper to justify Infant-Baptism , which is practis'd by us , and dislik'd by some of the Dissenters . And that my Discourse concerning Infant-Baptism may be the better understood , I shall take the liberty of premising a few things . 1. That the Original of the Jewish Church ( consider'd purely as a Church ) is to be dated from the Covenant which God made with Abraham ; but that of the Jewish Common-wealth from the delivery of the Law by Moses . For that the Jewish Church and Common-wealth are distinct things , is plain , because the Apostle makes this distinction , Rom. 4.13 . Gal. 3.17 . And therefore , 2. The way to find out the Nature of the Jewish Church is to consider the Nature of the Covenant made with Abraham , upon which the Jewish Church was founded . Now 't is plain from Rom. 4. 9th to the 17th , and 9.6 , &c. Gal. 3.5 , &c. that the Covenant made with Abraham was a Spiritual Covenant , made with him as the Father of Believers , and with his Posterity , not as proceeding from him by Natural , but by Spiritual Generation , as heirs of his Faith. Hence saies the Apostle , in the name of the Christians , We are the Circumcision , which worship God in the Spirit , and have no confidence in the Flesh , Phil. 3.3 . and it is one God , which shall justify the Circumcision by Faith , and the Vncircumcision thro' Faith , Rom. 3.30 . and if ye be Christ's , then are ye Abraham's Seed , and heirs according to the Promise , Gal. 3.29 . Nay 't will farther appear , that this Covenant was made , not with Abraham's Natural , but his Spiritual Off-spring , if we consider , 3. That the initiatory Sacrament into it was Circumcision . For the Covenant is call'd the Covenant of Circumcision , Acts 7.8 . and Circumcision on the other hand is call'd the Seal of the Righteousness of faith , Rom. 4.11 . faith or faithful obedience being the condition of that Covenant , which God requir'd of the Children of Abraham , and which they promis'd to perform . It also signify'd the Circumcision of the heart , Deut. 10.16 . and 30.6 . Rom. 2.28 , 29. 4. As to the Persons to be admitted into the Covenant , we have a very plain account at the institution of it , Gen. 17. from whence it appears , First , that the Children of Heathens were to be circumcis'd ; ( See Exod. 12.48 , 49. ) which also proves that the Promise was made , not to his Natural , but to his Spiritual Children . Hence in all Ages great numbers of Gentiles were admitted into the Jewish Church by Circumcision . Secondly , that persons of all Ages were to be Circumcis'd , and that God was so far from excluding Children from Circumcision , that he order'd that the Circumcision of them shou'd not be deferr'd beyond the 8th day . God was pleas'd to be so gracious as to chuse the Children with their Parents , and look upon them as holy upon their account . This was ground enough for their Admission into the Church , and for God to look upon them as Believers , tho' they cou'd not make open profession of their faith . The Faith and consent of the Father or the God-father , and of the Congregation under which he was Circumcis'd , was believ'd of Old by the Jews to be imputed to the Child as his own Faith and consent . See Seld. De Jure , lib. 2. c. 2. De Synedr . lib. 1. c. 3. And they had good ground in Scripture for this opinion ; because the infidelity and disobedience of the Parents , in wilfully neglecting or despising the Circumcision , was imputed to the Children , who were esteem'd and punish'd as breakers of the Covenant , when they were not Circumcis'd , Gen. 17.14 . And therefore , if the act of Parents in neglecting to bring their Children to Circumcision was reputed theirs : much more their act in bringing them to it , might well be reputed as their act and deed . Thus Numb . 3.28 . we find the keeping of the sanctuary imputed to the Males of the Cohathites , of a month old and upwards ; because their Fathers actually kept it , and they were to be train'd up to it . Thus Deut. 29.11 , 12. the little ones are expresly said to enter into the Covenant with God , because the Men of Israel did so . Thus also , tho' Christ heal'd grown Persons for their own Faith , Matth. 9.29 . yet he heal'd Children for the Faith of their Parents , or others who besought him for them ; as it were imputing it to them for their own Faith ; Mark 9.23 . Matth. 8.13 . John 4.50 . Vid. Cassand . De Baptismo Infant . p. 729. Taylor of Baptiz . Inf. Great Exemplar , Part 1. Sect. 9. 5. The Church was the same for substance under the Law , as it was before it ; and still remains the same for substance under the Gospel , as it was under the Law. For Abraham is still the Father of the faithful : and we that Believe under the Gospel , are as much his Children , in the true meaning of the words , as those that were Believers under the Law. Hence St. Peter , Epist . 1. calls Christians by those Titles , which God gave to the Jews , as to his peculiar People , viz. a Chosen Generation , Royal Priesthood , &c. and St. Paul compares the calling of them to the engrafting of the Wild Olive-tree into the Olive-tree's Stock , Rom. 11. Christ and his Apostles introduc'd as much of Judaism into the Christian Church , as the nature of the Reformation wou'd bear : and adher'd as much as they cou'd to the Old , both in the Matter and Form of the New Oeconomy . For the proof of this the Reader may consult Grot. Opusc . Tom. 3. p. 510 , 520 , &c. Hammond of Baptizing Infants , Selden de Jure , l. 2. c. 2. de Synedr . l. 1. c. 3. Lightfoot's Horae Heb. p. 42. Hammond on Matth. 2.1 , Alting . Dissert Septima de Proselyt . Mede's 1 B. disc . 43. 2 B. Christ . Sacrif . Cudworth on the Lord's Supper , Thorndike of Religious Assembl . Taylor 's Great Exemplar . Part. 1. Disc . of Baptism . Numb . 11. Dodwell's One Altar and One Priesthood , Light●oot on 1 Cor. 5.4 . Some things , I confess , they laid aside ; but their Reasons for so doing were , 1. Because very many of the Jewish Rites were fulfilled in Christ ; and this is so plain , that I need not prove it . 2. Because many of them were inconsistent with the Nature of Christianity ; which was to be , 1. Manly , in opposition to the Law , which was but a School-Master to bring them to Christ , Gal. 3.24 . and the Jews were under it , as Children are under Tutors , Chap. 4.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. for they had Childish understandings , and were like Children , to be instructed by Symbolical Lessons , viz. Washings , &c. 2. Free , in opposition to the servile Nature of the Jewish Church , which was loaded with numberless observances , of which the Jews were grown weary , and with which they had been for a long time heavy laden , when Christ call'd them to take his yoke upon them , which was to be so easy and light . 3. Vniversal , God injoin'd the Jews many things , in oposition to the Neighbouring Idolatrous Nations ; that there might be a mutual strangeness between them , and that by Ceremonial singularities they might be distinguisht from the rest of the World : but then Christ coming to break down the Middle wall of Partition betwixt the Jews and Gentiles , and to abolish the enmity of ordinances that was betwixt them , that he might make peace between them , and reconcile them both into one body ; it was requisite to this end , that he shou'd abolish these , and all oher distingishing characters betwixt them , which wou'd have hindred the progress of the Gospel , because they were become so odious and ridiculous to the Gentile World. And this is the reason , why the bloody Rite of Circumcision is changed into the easy Rite of Baptism . 6. Circumcision was a Sacrament of equal Significancy , Force and Perfection with Baptism ; and Baptism suceeded in the room of it , not as an Antitype succeeds in the place of the Type , but as one positive institution succeeds in the place of another . For we must note , that strictly and properly speaking , there was the same difference betwixt the Type and the Antitype , as betwixt the shadow and the substance , or betwixt a Man and his picture in a Glass ; insomuch that what was in the Type , did only represent something which did in a more perfect manner belong to the Antitype . Thus the blood of Sacrifices represented the blood of Christ , which do's truly purge the Conscience from dead works ; and the healing vertue of the Brazen Serpent was a Symbol of the healing vertue of Christ upon the Cross . But the case is not so betwixt Circumcision and Baptism ; because Circumcision has no Symbolical likeness with Baptism , nor any thing belonging to it common to Baptism , which doth not as fully belong unto it , as unto Baptism it self . For , 1. Circumcision was heretofore a real Sacrament of Initiation into the Covenant of Grace , a Seal of the Righteousness of Faith , and a confirmation of the Covenant betwixt God and Man , as much as Baptism is now . Baptism do's nothing under the Gospel , which Circumcision did not as properly and effectually do under the Law : and therefore it cou'd not be a Type of Baptism , any more than the Broad-Seal of England 300 years ago was a Type of this . And accordingly 't is never mention'd in the New Testament as a Type of Baptism , nor Baptism as the Antitype of it : but succeeded in the room of it , not as the Antitype did in the place of the Type , but as one absolute Ordinance or positive Institution do's in the place of another . 2. Circumcision was not a Type of Baptism , because a Type is an Exemplar appointed under the Old Testament to prefigure something under the New : but Baptism was it self of Jewish Institution under the Old Testament ; and by consequence cou'd not be Typify'd and prefigur'd by Circumcision , because it was us'd together with it in the Jewish Church . The Jewish Church made it a Ceremony of Initiating Proselytes under the Law ; and our Saviour liking the Institution , continu'd the use of it , and made it the only Ceremony of Initiating Proselytes under the Gospel ; superadding to it the compleat nature of an Initiatory Sacrament , or the full force of Circumcision , as it was a sign of the Covenant , and a seal of the Righteousness of Faith. Having premis'd these Six things , I proceed to the main business , in treating of which I design to shew , 1. That Infants are capable of Baptism . 2. That They are not excluded from Baptism by Christ . 3. That 't is unlawful to separate from a Church , which appoints Infants to be baptized , 4. That 't is the duty of Christian Parents to bring their Children unto Baptism . 5. That 't is lawful to Communicate with Believers , who were Baptiz'd in their Infancy . I. Then I shall shew , that Infants are capable of Baptism . God commanded Infants to be Circumcis'd , as well as adult Persons ; and surely , if they were capable of Circumcision , then they are also capable of Baptism . For the Two Covenants , of Circumcision and Baptism , are for substance the same , and the grace of those Covenants the very same ; and therefore if the Initiation of Infants was then no absurdity , it can be none now . Nay , if Infants were admitted into the Church , when the entrance was more grievous and not without Blood ; how unreasonable is it to assert , that they are now uncapable of admission into it , when the entrance is made more easy , and more agreeable to the weakness of a tender Child ? 'T is said indeed , that Infants are uncapable of Baptism , because they cannot Answer the Ends of it ; they cannot understand the Gospel , or Profess their Faith and Repentance , or submit to Baptism out of their own choice , nor can they have their Faith and Hope further strengthen'd in the use of it . But this way of arguing is very weak and fallacious , and reflecting upon the Wisdom of God. First , It is weak and fallacious , because it makes no distinction betwixt a strict Institution , which is Instituted by God for one , or a few ends , and precisely for persons of one sort ; and an Institution of Latitude , which is Instituted by him for several ends , and for different sorts of Persons , differently qualify'd for those several ends . Of the first sort was the Jewish Ordinance of Fringes , which cou'd only concern grown Persons , because they only were capable of answering the End , for which it was Instituted , viz. To look upon them and remember the Commandments of the Lord : and of the latter sort is the Holy Ordinance of Marriage , which was appointed for several ends , and for persons differently qualify'd for those several ends ; insomuch that persons who are incapacitated as to some ends of Marriage , may yet honestly Marry , because they are capable of the rest . For this Reason , those who are not capacitated for the Procreation of Children , may Marry , because they are capable of answering another end , for which Marriage was Ordain'd . Now our Adversaries cannot Prove , that Baptism is a strict Institution , because it succeeded in the room of Circumcision , which was an Institution of Latitude ; and because our Saviour was Baptiz'd , who was less capable of Baptism , than Infants possibly can be . For John Baptiz'd with the Baptism of Repentance , and thereby Seal'd unto the People the Remission of their Sins . Now our Saviour was without sin , and yet he was Baptiz'd ; which shews , that a Man who is capable of some ends of Baptism , may be Baptiz'd , tho' he is not capable of the rest . Secondly , 'T is reflecting upon the Wisdom of God , because God Commanded young Babes to be Circumcis'd , tho' all the ends of Circumcision cou'd not be answer'd by them . For , since there lies the same objection against Infant-circumcision as against Infant-baptism , therefore those Men who argue thus against Infant-baptism , do reproach the Divine Wisdom , which injoin'd Infant-circumcision . Children are capable of all the ends of Baptism , as it is a Sign , to assure us of God's favour , and to consign to us the Benefits of the Covenant of Grace . They may be made Members of a Church , and adopted Heirs of Eternal Life ; as well as they may be made Members of a Family , and adopted Heirs of a Temporal Estate . And if they are capable of the Benefits and Privileges of Christianity , why shou'd not the sign of those Benefits and Privileges be apply'd to them ? Suppose a Prince shou'd send for an attainted Traytor 's Child , and in the presence of several Persons Assembled for that purpose , shou'd say , You know the blood of this Child is attainted by his Father's Treason ; by Law he has forfeited all Right to his Ancestors Estate and Titles , and is quite undone , tho' he be not sensible of his wretched condition . My Bowels of compassion yern upon him , and here I restore him to his Blood and Inheritance , to which hence forward he shall have as much Right , as if the Family had never been attainted . I justify him freely , and declare my self reconcil'd to him ; and that no spot or imputation may hereafter lie upon him , I here before you all wash him with pure Water , to signify that he is cleans'd from his original attainder and corruption of Blood , and that he is as fully restor'd to his Birth-right , as if he had never been attainted . Suppose , I say , this were done for a poor attainted Infant ; cou'd any Man say , the action was insignificant and invalid , because that Child knew nothing of it ? Or that he was incapable of the sign , when he was capable of being wash'd from the attainder , which was the chief thing signify'd thereby ? Besides , tho' Abraham believ'd , and solemnly profess'd his Faith before he was Circumcis'd ; yet Isaac was Circumcis'd , and enter'd into the Covenant with God , before he was able to understand what the condition of the Covenant was . And will any Man say he was Circumcis'd in vain , or that God commanded a foolish thing ; tho' he was under the very same incapacity as to the ends of Circumcision , that Infants now are as to the ends of Baptism ? If it be said , that Circumcision was more proper for Infants than Baptism , because it left a Mark in the Flesh , to instruct them what was done in their infancy , which Baptism does not ; I answer , 1. That even the Mark of Circumcision was as insignificant during the non-age of the Child , as Baptism is to Christian Infants : neither afterwards cou'd he tell what the meaning of that Character was , but by the instruction of others . And therefore according to their way of reasoning against Infant-Baptism , it ought to have been deferr'd till the full years of discretion , when the Circumcis'd person might have understood the Spiritual signification thereof . 2. Allowing that Circumcision was more proper for Infants than Baptism , yet we must consider that the Jews knew very well , that Baptism left no Mark upon the person . And therefore those who argue against Infant-Baptism , must condemn the Jewish Church , which for many Ages Baptiz'd Infants and minor Proselytes into the Covenant , as well as actual Believers , and yet were never reprov'd for it by any Prophet ; which we may presume they wou'd have been , had baptismal initiation of Infants into the Covenant been so absurd , insignificant , and abusive a practice , as the Professors against Infant-Baptism pretend it is . II. I am to shew , that Infants are not excluded from Baptism by Christ . That he never excluded them by any express prohibition , the Anabaptists themselves do grant , because there is no such prohibition to be found in the New Testament : but then they pretend , that it was Christ's intention , that none but grown persons shou'd be Baptiz'd , because the Gospel requires , that persons to be Baptiz'd shou'd , 1. be Taught , Matth. 28.29 . 2. Believe , Mark 16.16 . 3. Repent , Acts 2.38 . But those and the like Texts do no more prove , that none but grown persons ought to be Baptiz'd , than the Apostle's words , 2 Thess . 3.10 . do prove , that none but grown persons ought to eat . For he requires that if any wou'd not work , neither shou'd he eat ; now none but grown persons can work , and therefore by this way of arguing none but grown persons ought to eat . Again , suppose there were a Plague in any Country , and God shou'd miraculously call 11 or 12 Men , and give them a Meditine against this Plague , and say ; Go into such a Country , and call the People of it together , and Teach them the Vertues of this Medicine , and assure them , that he that believeth and taketh it from you , shall live , but he that believeth not shall die . Now since Children are capable of the Medicine , tho' they are ignorant of the Benefits of it ; wou'd any Man conclude , that it was God's intention , that none but grown persons shou'd receive it , because they only cou'd be call'd together , and be taught the Vertues of it , and believe or disbelieve them that brought it ? No certainly . Wherefore , seeing Children , as I have prov'd , are capable of the Benefits of Baptism ; and the Apostles , who were sent to Baptize all Nations , knew them to be capable of it , and to have receiv'd both Circumcision and Baptism in the Jewish Church : how shou'd it be thought , but that it was Christ's intention , that Children as well as grown persons shou'd be Baptiz'd ? Shou'd God , in the daies of David , have order'd some Prophets to go and Preach the Law to every Creature , saying , He that believeth , and is Circumcis'd and Baptiz'd , shall be sav'd , but he that believeth not shall be damn'd ; wou'd those Prophets have Circumcis'd and Baptiz'd only grown persons , contrary to the practice of the Jewish Church ? Or if in a short History of their Mission we shou'd have read , that they Circumcis'd and Baptiz'd as many Proselytes , as gladly receiv'd their word ; wou'd this have prov'd , that they did not also Circumcise and Baptize the Infants of those believing Proselytes , according to the Laws and Usages of their Mother-Church ? Or shou'd God bid 12 Men , of a Church that had always practis'd Infant-Baptism , go and Preach the Gospel in the Indies , saying , He that believeth and is Baptiz'd , shall be sav'd ; wou'd those Men , that were bred up to the practice of Infant-Baptism , think it was God's intention , that Baptism shou'd be deny'd to Infants ? No certainly ; and therefore by parity of Reason , the Apostles cou'd not so understand their Commission , as to exclude Infants from Baptism . Now since our Saviour has not , either expresly or otherwise , excluded Infants from Baptism , certainly his Command to Baptize all Nations , do's comprehend Infants as well as Men. For the Apostles liv'd under a dispensation , where Infants were initiated both by Circumcision and Baptism into the Church ; and unless they had been instructed to the contrary , they must naturally understand their Commission of Baptizing to have extended unto Infants , as well as actual Believers . Our Adversaries indeed put the greatest stress upon these words of our Saviour , Mark 16.16 . He that believeth and is Baptiz'd , shall be sav'd : but if they wou'd well consider the next words , they wou'd find , that Infants are not at all concern'd in them ; because it follows , but he that believeth not , shall be damn'd . The same want of Faith , which here excludes from Baptism , excludes also from Salvation : and therefore it cannot be understood of Infants , unless they will say , that the same incapacity of believing which excludes them from Baptism , excludes them from Salvation too . Wherefore 't is plain , that the believing or not believing in that Text , is only to be understood of such as are in a capacity of hearing and believing the Gospel , that is , of grown persons ; just as the words , John 3.36 . He that believeth on the Son of God , hath Everlasting Life ; and he that believeth not , shall not see Life , but the Wrath of God abideth on him . But they urge also , that Baptism is unprofitable for Infants , because putting away the filth of the Flesh , which is all that Infants are capable of , signifies nothing ; but only the answer of a good Conscience towards God , of which , say they , Infants are wholly uncapable . To this I answer , that another Apostle tells us , that external Circumcision , which is all that infants are capable of , profiteth nothing without keeping the Law , which Infants cou'd not keep : but that the inward Circumcision of the Heart and in the Spirit , was the true Circumcision , and yet Infants are uncapable of it . So that their way of arguing proves nothing , because it stretches the words of the Apostles beyond their just meaning ; which was to let both Jews and Christians know , ( not that their Infants were unprofitably Circumcis'd or Baptiz'd , but ) that there was no resting in external Circumcision or Baptism . But farther , had not the Church been alwaies in possession of this practice , or cou'd any time be shew'd on this side the Apostles , when it began ; nay cou'd it be prov'd that any one Church in the World did not Baptize Infants , or that any considerable number of Men ( otherwise Orthodox ) did decline the Baptizing of them upon the same principles that these Men do now : then I shou'd suspect , that their arguments are better than they really are , and that Infant-Baptism might possibly be a deviation from the Rule of Christ . But since it is so Universal and Ancient a practice , that there never was any Church , Ancient or Modern , which did not practise it ; it can be nothing less than an Apostolical practice and tradition . If it be said , that False Apostles and False Teachers brought in Infant-Baptism in the very first Ages ; I wou'd fain know , how it came to pass that the very Companions and Contemporaries of the Apostles , and the Ancient Saints and Martyrs , who wrote against other Heresies , pass'd it over in silence , tho' we are sure from Irenaeus and Tertullian , that it was (a) practis'd in those early times . 'T is impossible , that they shou'd all consent in such a dangerous Errour , or that they shou'd all peaceably and tamely submit to it without opposition , or that such an alteration shou'd be made without observation , no body can tell how or when . Certainly those places of the New Testament , which require a profession of Faith and Repentance in grown Persons before Baptism , were understood by the ancient Fathers : and yet they never concluded from thence , that Infants ought not to be Baptiz'd . But if the Scriptures were doubtful in the case , I appeal to any Man , whether the harmonious practice of the ancient Churches , and the undivided consent of the Apostolical Fathers , be not the best interpreters of them . Let any modest Person judge , whether it be more likely , that so many famous Saints and Martyrs , so near the Apostles times , shou'd conspire in the practice of Mock-Baptism , and of making so many Millions of Mock-Christians ; or that a little Sect shou'd be in a grievous Errour . The brevity which I design , will not permit me to recite the Authorities of the ancients , and therefore I refer the Reader to Cassander , and Vossius De Baptism . Disp . 14. only I desire him to consider the following particulars . 1. That 't is hard to imagine , that God shou'd suffer his Church to fall into such a dangerous practice , as our Adversaries think Infant-Baptism to be , which wou'd in time . Unchurch it ; and that even while Miracles were yet extant in the Church , and he bare them witness with signs and wonders and divers gifts of the Holy Ghost . And yet 't is plain , that Irenaeus , Tertullian , Origen and Cyprian , who are witnesses of Infant-Baptism in those daies , do assure (b) us , that Miracles were then not Extraordinary in the Church . 2. If Infant-Baptism was not an Apostolical Tradition , how came the (c) Pelagians not to reject it for an innovation , when the Orthodox us'd it as an argument against them , that Infants were guilty of Original sin ? But they were so far from doing this , that they practis'd it themselves , and own'd it as necessary for Childrens obtaining the Kingdom of Heaven , tho' they deny'd that they were Baptiz'd for the remission of Original sin . 3. If Infant-baptism be not an Apostolical Tradition , how came all Churches (d) whatsoever , tho' they held no correspondence , but were original plantations of the Apostles , to practise it ? One may easily imagine , that God might suffer all Churches to fall into the harmless practice of Infant-Communion ; or that the Fathers of the Church might comply with the Religious fondness of the People in bringing their Children to the Lord's Supper , as we do with bringing them to Prayers : but that God shou'd let them all ( not preserving one for a Monument of Apostolical Purity ) fall into a practice , which destroys the being of the Church , is a thousand times more incredible , than that the Apostles , without a prohibition from Christ to the contrary , shou'd Baptize Infants according to the practice of the Jewish Church . 4. Wou'd not the Jewish Christians , who were offended at the neglect of Circumcision , have been much more offended , if the Apostles had excluded their Children from Baptism , as the Children of Unbelievers , and refus'd to Initiate them under the New Testament , as they had alwaies been under the Old ? Wherefore , since among their many complaints upon the alteration of the Jewish Customs , we never read that they complain'd of their Childrens being excluded from Baptism : we may better argue , that the Apostles Baptiz'd their Children ; than we may conclude from the want of an express example of Infant-Baptism , that they did not Baptize them . III. I am to prove , that 't is unlawful to separate from a Church , which appoints Infant-Baptism . Now it appears from what I have already said , that Infant-Baptism is a lawful thing , and therefore 't is a sin to separate from that Church which commands it ; because the Church has authority to Ordain that , which may be done without sin . But farther , Infant-Baptism is not only lawful , but highly requisite also . For purgation by Water and the Spirit seem equally necessary , because Except a Man be born again of Water and of the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God , John 3.5 . And 't is reasonable to think , that Children are capable of entring into Covenant , because they are declar'd capable of the Kingdom of God , Mark 10.14 . Nay we may justly conclude , that Children were Baptiz'd upon the Conversion of their Parents , after the Custom of the Jewish Church , because the Apostles Baptiz'd whole housholds , Acts 16.15 , 33. 1 Cor. 1.16 . For 't is probable , that the federal holiness of Believers Children makes them candidates for Baptism , and gives them a right to it ; because the Children of Believers are call'd Holy , 1 Cor. 7.14 . To which I may add other Texts , Psal . 5.5 . Rom. 3.23 , 24. Joh. 3.5 , 6. 2 Cor. 15.21 , 22. and 5.14 , 15. which have been alledg'd by the ancients , both before and after the Pelagian Controversy , to prove the Baptism of Infants necessary to wash away their original sin , which makes them obnoxious to eternal death . See Voss . Hist . Pelag. p. 1. Thes . 6. p. 2. l. 2. I say , it may be fairly concluded from these Texts , that Infant-Baptism is requisite : but then these Texts in conjunction with the practice of the ancient Church do demonstrate that 't is requisite ; because the Church in the next Age to the Apostles practis'd Infant-Baptism , as an Apostolical tradition , and by consequence , as an institution of Christ . I do not say , that Baptism is indispensably necessary to the Salvation of Infants , so that a Child dying unbaptiz'd thro' the carelesness or superstition of the Parents , or thro' their mistaken belief of the unlawfulness of Infant-Baptism , is infallibly damn'd : but I affirm , that Infant-Baptism is in any wise to be retain'd in the Church , as being most agreeable to the Scripture , and the Apostolical practice , and the institution of Christ . And if Baptism be not only lawful but so highly requisite , as it appears to be ; then certainly 't is unlawful to separate from that Church which injoins it . IV. In the next place I shall shew , that 't is the duty of Christian Parents to bring their Children to Baptism ; and in doing this I must proceed , as I did in the foregoing particular . Since Infants are not uncapable of Baptism , nor excluded from it by Christ ; nay , since there are good reasons to presume , that Christ at least allow'd them Baptism as well as grown persons : therefore the command of the Church makes it the People's duty to bring their Children to Baptism , because 't is lawful so to do . But farther , Infant-Baptism is highly expedient also . For , 1. it is very beneficial to the Infants , who are thereby solemnly consecrated to God , and made members of Christ's Mystical Body the Church . Besides , they being by Nature Children of Wrath , are by Baptism made the Children of Grace , and receive a right to eternal Life . I cannot deny , but they may be sav'd without Baptism by the uncovenanted Mercy of God : but then the hopes of God's mercy in extraordinary cases , ought not to make us less regardful of his sure , ordinary , and covenanted Mercies , and the appointed Means to which they are annex'd . Nay , Infants do by Baptism acquire a present right unto all the Promises of the Gospel , and particularly to the promises of the Spirit 's assistance , which they shall certainly receive , as soon and as fast , as their natural incapacity removes . Now , since these are the benefits of Baptism , and since Infants are capable of them ; let any impartial Man judge , whether it is more for their benefit , that they shou'd receive them by being Baptiz'd in their infancy , or stay for them till they come to years of discretion . Is it better for a Child that has the Evil , to be touch'd for it while he is a Child , or to wait till he is of sufficient Age to be sensible of the benefit ? Or is it best for a Traytor 's Child to be presently restor'd to his Blood and Estate , and his Prince's Favour , or to be kept in a mere capacity of being restor'd , till he is a man ? I must add , that Baptism laies such an early pre-engagement upon Children , as without the highest baseness and ingratitude they cannot afterwards retract . For there is no person of common Ingenuity , Honour or Conscience , but will think himself bound to stand to the Obligation which he contracted in his Infancy ; when he was so graciously admitted to so many blessings and privileges , before he cou'd understand his own good , or do any thing himself towards the obtaining of them . And therefore the Wisdom of the Church is highly to be applauded , for bringing them under such a beneficial pre-engagement , and not leaving them to their own liberty at such years , when Flesh and Blood wou'd be apt to find out so many shifts and excuses , and make them regret to be Baptiz'd . 2. Infant-Baptism is very Expedient , because it conduces much to the Well-being and Edification of the Church , in preventing those scandalous and shameful delays of Baptism , which grown Persons wou'd be apt to make in these , as they did in former times to the great prejudice of Christianity . Since therefore Infant-Baptism is not only Lawful and commanded by the Church , but most Expedient in it self , and most agreeable to the practice of the Apostles and Primitive Christians , and to the Will of Christ ; it must needs be concluded , that there lies the same obligation upon Parents to desire Baptism for their Children , as there do's upon grown Persons to desire it for themselves . For what Authority soever exacts any thing concerning Children or Persons under the years of discretion , laies at least an implicit obligation upon Parents , to see that it be perform'd . For , if in the time of a general contagion , the Supreme Power shou'd Command , that all Men , Women and Children , shou'd every Morning take such an Antidote ; that Command wou'd oblige Parents to give it to their Children , as well as to take it themselves . Just so the Ordinance of Baptism being intended for Children as well as grown Persons , it must needs oblige the Parents to bring them to it . What I have here said about the obligation , which lies upon Parents to bring their Children to Baptism , concerns all Guardians , &c. to whose care Children are committed . And if any ask , at what time they are bound to bring them to Baptism ? I answer , at any time ; for the Gospel indulges a discretional latitude , but forbids the wilful neglect , and all unreasonable and needless delays thereof . V. As to Communion with Believers , who were Baptiz'd in their Infancy , 't is certainly Lawful , and has ever been thought so ; nay 't is an exceeding great sin to refuse Communion with them , because that wou'd be a disowning those to be Members of Christ's Body , whom he owns to be such . Nothing now remains , but that I take off two objections . First , 'T is said that Infant-Communion may be practis'd , as well as Infant-Baptism . But I answer , 1. There is not equal Evidence for the Practice of Infant-Communion ; because St. Cyprian is the first Author which they can produce for it , and then the Author of the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy , and Cyril of Jerusalem , mention it towards the latter end of the Fourth Century , and St. Austin in the Fifth : whereas for Infant-Baptism we have the Authority of St. Cyprian and a whole Council of Fathers , over which he Presided , of Origen , Tertullian , Irenaeus , St. Jerom , St. Ambrose , St. Chrysostom , St. Athanasius , Gregory Nazianzen , and the Third Council of Carthage , who all speak of it as a thing generally practis'd , and most of them , as of a thing which ought to be practis'd in the Church . I may add , that none of the Four Testimonies for Infant-Communion speak of it , as of an Apostolical Tradition , as Origen do's of Infant-Baptism . 2. There is not equal Reason for the Practice of it . For Persons of all Ages are capable of Baptism : but the Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament of Perfection , instituted for the remembrance of Christ's Death and Passion ; which being an act of great Knowledge and Piety , Children are not capable to perform . Nor is there an equal concurrence of Tradition , or the Authority of so many Texts of Scripture for Infant-Communion ; it being grounded only upon John 6.53 . Except ye eat the Flesh of the Son of Man , and drink his Blood , ye have no life in you . Now 't is doubtful whether this be meant of the Eucharist or no , because it was not as yet instituted : but if it be so to be understood , yet the sence of it ought to be regulated by the chief end of its Institution , Do this in remembrance of me . Nay , the Western Church , discerning the Mistake upon which Infant-Communion was grounded , have long since laid it aside , tho' they still continue the practice of Infant-Baptism . But in truth , the practice of Infant-Communion is so far from prejudicing the Cause of Infant-Baptism , that it mightily confirms it ; because none were , or cou'd be admitted to partake of the Holy Communion , till they were validly Baptiz'd . And therefore the practice of Infant-Communion fully proves , that all the Churches , wherein it ever was , or still (e) is practis'd , were of opinion , that the Baptism of Infants is as Valid and Lawful , as that of grown Persons . Secondly , 't is objected , that Children who have not the use of Reason , cannot know what a Covenant means , and therefore they cannot contract and stipulate ; tho' St. Peter says , the Baptism which saveth us , must have the Answer , or Restipulation of a good Conscience towards God. To this I Answer , 1. That this Objection is as strong against Infant-Circumcision , as against Infant-Baptism . 2. That God was pleas'd to Seal the Covenant of Grace unto Circumcis'd Infants upon an implicite and imputative sort of stipulation , which at years of understanding they were bound to own ; because if they renounc'd it , the Covenant was as void , as if it had never been made . And therefore an implicite stipulation is sufficient for the Baptism of Infants ; and St. Peter , 't is likely , had not respect to all Baptism , or Baptism in general , but only to the Baptism of adult Proselytes , whom the Minister us'd to interrogate at the time of Baptism , much after the same manner as we interrogate adult Proselytes now . But it is plain that Tertullian (f) makes mention of Sponsors or Sureties for Children at Baptism ; and 't is very probable , that the Apostles made Parents , &c. stipulate in the name of their (g) Minors , when they Baptiz'd them , as the Jews were wont to do ; and t is certain , that our Saviour speaks of Children , that Believe in him , Matth. 18.6 . And therefore St. Peter might also probably allude to all Baptism , because Children might be Answer'd for by other Persons . Thus , I hope , I have sufficiently justify'd the practice of Infant-Baptism , and shewn , that it is by no means a sufficient excuse for separation from us . CHAP. VI. Objections against our Form of Baptism , and particularly that of the sign of the Cross , Answer'd . I Proceed now to consider the Objections against our Form of Baptism . I. It is said , that all Baptiz'd Infants are suppos'd to be regenerated , of which , some think , we cannot be certain . But since they are Baptiz'd into Christ's Body , 1 Cor. 12.13 . and into Christ , and have put on Christ , Gal. 3.27 . and consequently are new Creatures , 2 Cor. 5.17 . since , I say , they are Baptiz'd for the Remission of sins , Acts 2.38 . and since Baptism is call'd the Washing of regeneration , Tit. 3.5 . therefore the Scripture , as well as our Church , supposes them to be regenerated ; unless the Ordinances and Promises of God are of none effect towards them . II. 'T is objected , that Godfathers and Godmothers have no Authority to Covenant or act in their names . To which I answer , 1. That the Sureties are procur'd by the Parents ; and therefore , since 't is granted that the Parents may act in behalf of the Infant , the Sureties have all that Authority which the Parents can give them . 2. The Church do's hereby take great security , that the Infant shall be religiously brought up : inasmuch as , besides their Parents , an obligation is laid upon others also to take care of it . If the Parents shou'd die or be negligent , the Sureties are engaged to admonish the Child , and have greater authority and better advantages of doing so , than other Persons . And in this Age , when the Duty of Christian reproof is so generally omitted , 't were well if the defect were this way a little supply'd : but 't is by no means fit , that the opportunity thereof , and obligation thereto shou'd be taken away . If it be said , this is seldom practis'd ; I answer , that the goodness of a Rule is to be judg'd of by the good that is done where 't is kept , and not where 't is broken . And if the Dissenters have nothing to say , but that 't is neglected ; they may remove this objection themselves , by returning to the Church and increasing the number of those that observe it . Thus they shall have the benefit of the order of the Church , and the Church the benefit of their Examples . As for the Interrogatories put to the Sureties , and their Answers , they are a Solemn Declaration of what Baptism obliges us to ; and that Infants do stand engag'd to perform it , when they come to Age. This is the known meaning of the Contract ; and therefore I see not , why it shou'd be said to be liable to misunderstanding . III. But that which is most dislik'd , is the Cross in Baptism , against which 't is objected , 1. That the sign of the Cross has been so notoriously abus'd by the Papists , that our retaining of it makes us partakers of their Superstitions and Idolatry . 2. That it seems a new Sacrament , and therefore is an invasion of Christ's right , who alone may institute Sacraments . As to the First pretence , tho' I readily acknowledge that the Cross has been notoriously abus'd by the Papists , yet this do's not prove our retaining of it to be unlawful , if we consider Three things . 1. That the use of this sign was common in the primitive times , and is more Ancient , than any of those Corruptions , for which we differ from the Papists . Tertullian (a) speaks of it , as of a practice which Tradition had introduc'd , Custom had confirm'd , and the Believers faith had observ'd and maintain'd : which words , together with his frequent and familiar mention of it , make it very improbable , that he receiv'd it from the Montanists . Fourty years after him , and about 200 after Christ , Origen (b) mentions those , who at their Baptism were sign'd with this sign : and about 100 years after , St. Basil (c) gives this usage the Venerable Title of an Ecclesiastical constitution , or fixt Law of the Church , that had prevail'd from the Apostles daies , that those who believe in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ , should be sign'd with the sign of the Cross . But of all the Fathers , St. Cyprian who was before St. Basil and very near ( if not contemporary with ) Tertullian himself , not only speaks very familiarly of the use of this sign , but has some expressions that wou'd now seem very harsh and unwarrantable : and yet the authority of this Father has sav'd him from being question'd about it . He (d) tells us , that they are sign'd in the forehead with the Cross , who are thought worthy of the Lord ; that Baptism is sanctify'd by the Cross ; and that it compleats every Sacrament . The great the antiquity of this usage is manifest ; nay , the Fathers frequently use being sign'd in the forehead for being Baptiz'd . I shall not instance in St. Cyril , St. Ambrose and St. Austin , who sprinkle their writings with the common mention of this Ceremony , and oftentimes frame arguments for a good Life , from this very sign upon their foreheads . Only I shall add this remark ; that the first Christian Emperour Constantine the Great , had his directions probably from Heaven it self , to make this sign the great Banner in his Wars , with this encouragement , that by this he shou'd overcome . That this Dream or Vision was from Heaven , and a thing of great reality , is evident from the success of that Prince's Army under it : and we cannot suppose , that our Blessed Lord wou'd , by so immediate a revelation , countenance such a Rite as this , already us'd in the Church , if he had resented it before as superstitious or any way unwarrantable . I may add , that we ought not to be too petulant against that , which the Holy Spirit has sometimes signaliz'd by very renown'd Miracles ; as those that consult the Ecclesiastical Histories of the best Authority , cannot but be convinc'd : and that those conceits of the Fathers concerning this sign , which perhaps may be too fanciful , do confirm the ancient reception of it into the Primitive Church . If it be said , that the antient Christians us'd this sign , because they liv'd amongst Jews and Heathens , to testify to both , that they made the Cross the Badge of their profession , and wou'd not be asham'd of it , tho' 't was a stumbling-block to the one and foolishness to the other : whereas we have no such occasion for it , who do universally profess Christianity ; I Answer , 1. That this Objection supposes the sign to be lawful , and that it may be us'd upon weighty Reasons ; and surely then the command of Authority may justify the practice of it . 2. That we have as just reason to use it as the Primitive Christians , because of the blasphemous Contempt that is generally cast upon the whole Scheme of Christianity , particularly the Merits of our Saviour's Cross and Passion , by the pretended Wits of our Age. So that St. Cyprian's (e) words are now pertinent , Arm your Foreheads , that the Seal of God may be kept safe ; as if he shou'd have said , Remember the Badge you took upon you in Baptism , and so long as you have that upon your Foreheads , never be asham'd or laugh'd out of countenance as to the Memory of our Saviour's love , and the foundation of your hopes laid in his Death and Passion . I grant indeed , that the use of the Cross is an indifferent Ceremony , and that Baptism is , as our Church declares , compleat without it : but what I contend for , is fully prov'd , viz. that the Cross was us'd in the first Ages of Christianity ; from whence it follows , that tho' 't is not necessary , yet 't is warrantable . 2. Our use of this sign is not in the least like the Popish use of it . For , 1. we admit of no visible Crucifixes ; nor has any of our Writers ventur'd to say (f) with Mr. Baxter , that a Crucifix well befitteth the imagination and mind of a Believer ; and that it is not unlawful to make an image ( of a Crucifix ) to be an Obiect or Medium of our consideration , exciting our minds to worship God. The sence of our Church is truly exprest by Mr. Hooker , who (g) says , That between the Cross which Superstition honoureth as Christ , and that Ceremony of the Cross which serveth only for a sign of remembrance , there is as plain and great a difference , as between those Brazen Images which Solomon made to bear up the Cistern of the Temple , and that which the Israelites in the Wilderness did adore . Ours is a mere transient sign , which abides not so long as to be capable of becoming an Object or Medium of worship , any more than any words we use in worship may do . 2. Our use even of this transient sign is nothing like the Popish use of it . For the Papists use it upon all occasions ; and at Baptism they use it much oftner , and so differently from our way , that 't is not us'd at the same time and with the same words that we use it with . This is evident from the Roman Ritual . 3. Tho' the Church of Rome has notoriously abus'd this sign , yet 't is not unlawful for us to continue the use of it , as I shall fully prove in the Eighth Chapter . As to the Second pretence , that the sign of the Cross is a new Sacrament , I answer , that we all agree , that a Sacrament is an outward and visible sign of an inward and Spiritual Grace given to us , Ordain'd by Christ himself , as a means whereby we receive the same , and as a Pledge to assure us thereof . And therefore , since we never suppos'd , that the use of the Cross in Baptism cou'd confer Grace , nor have ever made the least pretence to any Divine appointment for it ; we ought not to be charg'd as introducing a New Sacrament . If it be said , that we make the Cross a sign betokening our Faith and Christian Courage , because we apply it in token that hereafter he shall not be asham'd to confess the Faith o● Christ Crucify'd , &c. and that therefore we make it an outward sign of an inward and Spiritual Grace ; I answer , that we own it to be a significant Ceremony , as all other Ceremonies are ; for we do not account a Ceremony innocent , because 't is insignificant and impertinent : but yet we deny it to be an outward and visible sign of an inward and Spiritual Grace . For our Ceremonies are not seals and assurances from God of his Grace to us , but hints and remembrances of some Obligation we are under with respect to him ; and this kind of significant Usages has ever been taken up , without any imputation of introducing a New Sacrament . For , 1. the Jewish Church chang'd the posture of eating the Passover , from Standing to Sitting in token of their Rest and Securi●y in the Land of Canaan . There was also an Altar of witness rear'd on the other side of Jordan ; and the Synagogue-Worship , Rites of Marriage , Form of taking Oaths , &c. were significant ; and yet they were all receiv'd in the purest times of the Jewish Church , and comply'd with by our Saviour himself 2. The Christian Church of the first Ages us'd the same liberty , as appears by the customs of the Holy Kiss and the Feasts of Charity . Tertullian , de Orat. speaks as if the public Service were imperfect , if it concluded not with the Holy Kiss ; which was us'd in token of the mutual Communion and Fellowship , that Christians had with one another . The Feasts of Charity also signify'd the mutual Love and Communion of Christians , and the equal regard that God and our Saviour had towards all sorts and conditions of Men , when they were all to eat freely together at one Common meal . I might further instance in the Ceremony of insufflation , which was us'd as a sign of Breathing into them the good Spirit ; and the Baptiz'd Person 's stripping off his Garment in token that he put off the Old Man ; and the trine immersion , at the Mention of each Person of the Trinity , to signify the Belief of that great Article . Now all these things were anciently practis'd without any jealousy of invading the prerogative of Christ in instituting New Sacraments . 3. All the Reformed Churches , nay the very Dissenters themselves , do use some Symbolical actions in their most Religious Solemnities . For , 1. Their giving to the Baptiz'd Infant a New Name seems to betoken its being made a New Creature . Nay the Dissenters generally give it some Scripture-name , or one that betokens a particular grace ; and this is an outward and visible sign , and this too sometimes of an inward and spiritual grace ; and yet they do not think it a New Sacrament . 2. The Dissenters plead for sitting at the Lord's Supper , because 't is a Table-g●sture , and expresses Fellowship with Christ , &c. This is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace ; and yet 't is not accounted an additional Sacrament to that of the Lord's Supper . 4. And lastly , Suppose that an Independent , when he is admitted into their Church-Covenant , shou'd signify his assent by holding up his hand , or the like ; this is an outward and visible sign of no less then a new state of life , that is , of being made a Member of Christ's Church , and being engaged to all the duties and instated in all the Privileges of it : and yet this was never charg'd upon them by the Presbyterians , as introducing a New Sacrament . Now from all these instances 't is evident , how unreasonable a thing it is , that our using the sign of the Cross , in token that hereafter he ( the Infant ) shall not be asham'd to confess the Faith of Christ crucify'd , &c. shou'd be thought an adding of a New Sacrament of the Cross to that of Baptism . But 't is objected , that our Convocation , c. 30. declares , That by the sign of the Cross the Infant is Dedicated , &c. Now , say they , Baptism is it self a Seal of Dedication to God , and therefore our Dedicating the Infant by our own invented way of the sign of the Cross , is adding a New Sacrament . To this I answer , that Dedication may properly signify a Confirmation of our first Dedication to God , and a Declaration of what the Church thinks of a Baptiz'd Person ; and the sign of the Cross is the Medium of this Declaration . That this is the meaning of our Church , is evident , if we compare the Office of Baptism and the Canon together . Both the Rubric and Canon say , that Baptism is compleat without the sign of the Cross . It is expresly said , We receive this Child into the Congregation of Christ 's Flock , and upon that do sign it with the Cross ; So that the Child is declar'd to be within the Congregation of Christ 's Flock , before 't is sign'd with the Cross . Since therefore the Person is Dedicated in Baptism , and the Baptism is acknowledg'd compleat without , or before the sign of the Cross ; we cannot be thought to Dedicate in Baptism and to Dedicate by the Cross again : but the Dedication by the Cross must be something very distinct from the Dedication of Baptism ; that is , the one is the sign of the Dedication , and the other the Dedication it self . So that this is plainly no other , than a Declaration the Church makes of what the Baptiz'd Person is admitted to , and what engagement he lies under . Which Declaration is therefore made in the name of the Church in the Plural number , We receive this Child , &c. and do sign him with the sign of the Cross , &c. whereas in Baptism , the Minister alone , as the immediate Agent of Christ , pronounces in the singular number , I Baptize thee in the Name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Ghost . From what has been said , I hope , it appears , that our Office of Baptism has nothing in it , that may in the least justify a separation from us . CHAP. VII . Objections against our Communion-Office , and particularly that of kneeling at the Sacrament , Answer'd . THO' the Communion-Office , for the Gravity and Holiness thereof , is preferr'd by the Dissenters before all other Offices in the Common-Prayer-Book , yet it has not past free from exception . For , I. 'T is objected against it , that the Petition in the Prayer before Consecration , That our sinful Bodies may be made clean by his body , and our Souls wash'd by his most precious Blood , implies that the Blood of Christ has greater efficacy than his Body , inasmuch as the Soul is said to be cleans'd by the Blood of Christ , and only the Body by Christ's Body . But I answer , that at the delivery of the Bread and Wine , the Priest saies , The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ , which was given for thee , preserve thy Body and Soul unto everlasting Life ; and The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ , which was , &c. And therefore 't is plain , that our Church teaches , that the Sanctification and Salvation of our Souls and Bodies flow from the Body as well as the Blood of Christ . Nor do's the mentioning of one alone exclude the other ; for the Apostle speaks sometimes of the Bread alone , 1 Cor. 10.17 . and sometimes of the Wine alone , 1 Cor. 12.13 . and yet all Men must grant , that he meant both . II. 'T is said , that Christ did not deliver the Elements into every Person 's hands , with a Form of words recited to every one of them , as we do . But I answer , 1. That this do's not appear from Christ's words ; for the Evangelists may well be suppos'd to give a short account of the Institution , and then what might be particularly said or done to every one , wou'd be sufficiently related in being said to be done or spoken to all . 2. Suppose that our practice do's vary from this circumstance of the Institution , it may be as easily defended as celebrating the Lord's Supper at Dinner-time , and not at Supper , which the Dissenters themselves do not scruple . 3. Our Saviour commanded his Disciples , Matth. 28.19 . to Teach all Nations Baptizing them in the Name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Ghost . But will any Man think , that when great numbers are to be Baptiz'd together , the Form of Baptizing in the Name of the Father , &c. may not lawfully be express'd severally to every Person ? And why then may not the same be done in the Lord's Supper ? Wherefore the practice of our Church herein is no way unsutable to the Institution of Christ , or the nature of the Sacrament ; and the alteration of it wou'd be for the worse , and abate the Solemnity of its Administration . See Falkner 's Libert . Eccles . p. 218 , &c. III. The last and great objection is against the posture of kneeling at the Sacrament ; and therefore I shall consider it largely , and endeavour to shew , 1. That Christ has not forbidden us to kneel at the Sacrament . 2. That kneeling is not a deviation from his Example . 3. That 't is not unsutable for its being no Table-gesture . 4. That 't is not contrary to the practice of the Church in the best and purest Ages . 5. That kneeling is not therefore unlawful , because 't was introduced by Idolaters , and is still notoriously abus'd by the Papists to Idolatrous ends and purposes . First then , Christ has not forbidden us to kneel at the Sacrament . For in all the Scriptures God has not given us any express command to determine our practice one way or other : and , if Authority did not restrain our Liberty , we might either sit , kneel or stand , without the least violation of the Law of God. The Apostles and Disciples of our Lord at the Institution of the Sacrament , which the Scripture relates in several places (a) were the Representatives of the whole Church , and are to be consider'd under a double capacity ; either as Governours and Ministers , Intrusted by Christ with the Power of dispensing and administring the Sacrament , or as ordinary and Lay-communicants . If we consider them as Governours and Stewards of the Mysteries , their duty to which they are oblig'd by the express Command of their Lord , is to take the Bread into their hands , to Bless and Consecrate it to that Mysterious and Divine use to which he design'd it , to break and distribute it ; and so in the like manner to take and bless the Cup , and give it to their Fellow-Christians . But if we consider them as Private Men , and in common with all Believers , their duty was to take and receive the Bread and Wine , and to eat and drink in Commemoration of Christ's Love. But what syllable or shadow of a Command is there in all the History for the use of any gesture in the act of receiving ? Since then the Holy Scripture is altogether silent as to this matter , it 's silence is a full and clear demonstration , that kneeling is not repugnant to any express command of our Lord , because no gesture was ever commanded at all . But the Scotch Ministers Assembled at Perth , affirm that when our Lord Commanded his Disciples to do this , he did by those words Command them to use that Gesture , which he us'd at that time , as well as to take , eat , drink , &c. To this I answer , 1. That if our Lord did sit at the Institution ( which we will suppose at present ) yet there is no reason to think , that He intended by these words , do this , to oblige us to observe this Gesture only , and not several other circumstances , which he observ'd at the same time , as well as this . For Example , if the words may be Interpreted thus , Do this , that is , sit as Christ did ; why not thus also , Do this , that is , Celebrate the Sacrament in an Upper-room , in a Private-house , late at night or in the evening , after a full Supper , in the Company of Twelve at most , and they only Men , with their Heads cover'd according to the Custom of those Countries , and with unleavened Bread ? There lies as great an obligation upon us to observe all those circumstances in imitation of our Lord , as there do's to sit . 2. Even the two last of those circumstances are generally allow'd , but all the rest are mention'd in Scripture , and were most certainly observ'd by Christ : whereas the gesture us'd by them is not mention'd , and what it was is very disputable , as I shall afterwards prove . How then can any Man think himself oblig'd in Conscience to do what Christ is not expreslly said to do ; and not oblig'd to do what the Scripture expresly saies he did ? 3. 'T is clear from St. Paul , 1 Cor. 11.23 , &c. that do this , respects only the Bread and Wine , which signify the Body and Blood of Christ , and actions that are specify'd by him , which are essential to the right and due Celebration of that Holy Feast . For when 't is said , Do this in remembrance of me , and this do as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of me , and as oft as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup , ye do shew the Lord's Death till he come ; 't is plain , that do this , must be restrain'd to the Sacramental actions there mention'd , and not extended to the gesture , of which the Apostle speaks not a word . Our Lord Instituted the Sacrament in Remembrance of his Death and Passion , and not in Remembrance of his Gesture in Administring it : and consequently , do this , is a general Command , obliging us only to such particular actions and rites as he had instituted , and made necessary to be us'd in order to this great end , viz. to signify and represent his Death , and that bloody Sacrifice which he offer'd upon the Cross for us miserable Sinners . Nay the Practice of our Dissenters proves , that no particular gesture is commanded . For there are many serious and sincere Persons among them , who profess that ( were they left to their liberty ) they cou'd use kneeling as well as any other gesture : but they think that an indifferent thing becomes unlawful , when 't is injoin'd by Authority . I have already confuted this opinion ; but 't is certain , that by granting they cou'd use the posture of kneeling , were it not injoin'd , and consequently that 't is in it's own nature indifferent ; they do thereby grant that there is no Command for any particular posture . I must add , that the Reform'd Churches of France , and those of Geneva and Helvetia stand , the Dutch generally sit , but in some places ( as in West-Friesland ) they stand . The Churches of the Bohemian and Augustane Confession , which spread through the large Kingdoms of Bohemia , Denmark , and Sweden , thro' Norway , the Dukedom of Saxony , Lithuania and Ducal Prussia in Poland , the Marquisate of Brandenburg in Germany , and several other places and free Cities in that Empire , do for the most part , if not all of them , retain the Gesture of Kneeling . The Bohemian Churches were Reform'd by John Husse and Jerom of Prague , who suffer'd Martyrdom at Constance about the year 1416. long before Luther's time , and those of the Ausbourg or Augustan Confessions were founded and reform'd by Luther , and were the first Protestants properly so call'd . But these Churches so early reform'd and of so large extent , did not only use the same Gesture that our Church injoins at the Sacrament ; but they , together with those of the Helvetic Confession , did in three (b) general Synods unanimously condemn the sitting Gesture ( tho' they esteem'd it in it self lawful ) as being scandalous for this remarkable Reason , viz. because it was us'd by the Arians ( as their Synods call the Socinians ) in contempt of our Saviours Divinity , who therefore placed themselves as Fellows with their Lord at his Table . And thereupon they entreat and exhort all Christians of their Communion to change sitting into kneeling or standing , both which Ceremonies we indifferently leave free , according as the custom of any Church has obtain'd , and we approve of their use without scandal and blame . Moreover they affirm , That these Socinians who deny Christ to be God , were the first that introduced Sitting at the Sacrament into their Churches , contrary to the practice of all the Evangelical Churches in Europe . Among all these Foreign Churches of the Reformation , there is but one that I can find which uses Sitting , and forbids Kneeling , for fear of Bread-worship ; but yet in that Synod wherein they condemn'd Kneeling , they left it to the choice of their Churches to use Standing , Sitting , or an Ambulatory Gesture ( as the French (c) do ) and at last conclude thus ; These Articles are so setled by mutual consent , that if the good of the Churches require it , they may and ought to be chang'd , augmented or diminish'd . What now shou'd be the ground and reason of this Variety both in Opinion and Practice touching the Gesture to be us'd at the Lord's Supper ? Is it to be imagin'd that an Assembly of Learned and Pious Divines , met together on purpose to consult how to reform their Churches , according to the pure Word of God , shou'd thro' weakness and inadvertency overlook an express Command of Christ for the perpetual use of any particular Gesture , if any such there had been ? Or shall we be so uncharitable as to think , that all these eminent Churches wilfully past it by , and establish'd what was most agreeable to their own fancies , contrary to the known Will of God ? Wou'd they have given liberty to all of their Communion to use several Gestures according to the Custom of their several Churches , if our Lord had tied them to observe but one ? Wou'd they declare ( as the Dutch Synod doth ) that what they injoin'd might be alter'd , if the good of the Church so requir'd ; if so be Sitting had been expresly Commanded by our Lord , to be us'd by all Christians to the end of the World ? No undoubtedly , they wou'd not ; we cannot either in Reason or Charity suppose it . The true Principle upon which all these Reform'd Churches built , and by which they are able to reconcile all this seeming difference in this matter , is the very same with that which the Church of England go's by in her Synods and Convocations ; viz. (d) That as to Rites and Ceremonies of an indifferent nature , every National Church has Authority to institute , change and abolish them , as they in Prudence and Charity shall think most fit and conducive to the setting forth God's Glory , the Edification of their People , and the Decent and Reverend Administation of the Holy Sacrament . Whosoever therefore refuses to receive the Lord's Supper according to the Constitution of the Church of England , purely because Kneeling is contrary to the express Command of Christ , must condemn the Judgment and Practice of all the Reform'd Churches beyond the Seas , who all agree in this , That the Gesture in the Act of Receiving is to be reckon'd among things Indifferent ; and that whether we sit , or kneel or stand , or Receive walking , we transgress no Law of God ; and consequently they prove my Assertion true , That Kneeling is no more contrary to any express Command than any other Gesture ; because they allow of all , as lawful in themselves to be us'd , which cannot consist with an express Command for the use of any one Gesture whatsoever . Upon the whole matter , I think we may certainly conclude , that there is not a tittle of a Command in the whole New Testament to oblige us to receive the Lord's Supper in any particular posture : and if any be so scrupulous , as not to receive it in any other Gesture , but what is expresly commanded , they must never receive it as long as they live . Secondly , I shall prove , that Kneeling is not a deviation from Christ's example . This will appear , if we consider , 1. that 't is doubtful what Gesture our Saviour us'd at the Institution of the Sacrament . For the Scripture do's not inform us what it was , and the Jews us'd variety of Gestures at the Passover ; and therefore , since our Lord's Example cannot certainly be known in this Matter , our Church cannot be charg'd with deviation from it . 2. Those who Kneel at the Sacrament in compliance with the Orders of the Church , do manifestly follow the Example of Christ . For our Saviour comply'd with that Passover-gesture , which the Jews then us'd , tho' it was not the same that was us'd at the Institution in Egypt : and his compliance may teach us , not to be scrupulous about Gestures , but to conform to the innocent and prevailing customs of the Church , wheresoever we live . And if Christians did walk according to this rule , they wou'd greatly promote the peace and welfare of the Church of Christ , and in so doing procure quiet and peace to themselves , with unspeakable comfort and satisfaction . But supposing our Lord did sit , as the Dissenters will have it ; yet his bare example do's not oblige all Christians to a like practice . 1. Because naked examples , without some rule or note added to them , to signify that 't is God's Will to have them constantly follow'd , have not the force of Laws perpetually obliging the Conscience . And therefore , in this case , because no such note is to be found , we are not tied in Conscience to a strict imitation of Christ's Example . Thus the Example of our Saviour do's not oblige us to defer our Baptism till the Age of 30 years , or not to receive the Sacrament till a little before death ; and , I pray , what reason is there to follow his Example in sitting at the Sacrament , any more than in those particulars ? 2. We are bound to imitate Christ in those things only which he has commanded : but where there is no command , there is no necessity . Indeed we must follow Christ and his Apostles ; but in what ? Why , in acting according to the Gospel-rule . An example may help to interpret a Law , but of it self it is no Law. Against a rule no example is a competent warrant : and if the example be according to the rule , 't is not the Example , but the Rule , that is the Measure of our actions . 3. The bare Example of Christ is no warrant for us to go by , because he was an Extaordinary Person , and did many things which we cannot , and many which we must not do . He Fasted 40 Daies and 40 Nights , wrought Miracles , &c. which we are not to pretend to . They say indeed , We are bound to imitate Christ and the commendable Example of his Apostles , in all things wherein it is not evident , they had special Reasons moving them thereunto , which do not concern us . But I wou'd willingly be inform'd how we shall be ever able to know when they acted upon special Reasons , and what they were , that we may know our Duty , if a bare Example without any Rule obliges us . And if we guide our selves by Scripture or Reason in this matter , then they are the measures of the Example . Besides , if we are not to imitate them in such things , as they were mov'd to do upon special Reasons , which did not concern us ; then we are obliged to imitate their Examples in such things as they did upon general and common Reasons , which concern us as well as them , or we are not oblig'd at all by any Example : and if so , then those Reasons are to be our Rule , to which we are to reduce their Examples . Unless we find some general or common Reason , we have no Warrant ( according to their own Principle ) to follow their Examples : and when such Reasons do appear , then it 's not the Example alone that obliges us , but Reason that approves the Example . To bring their own Rule to the case in hand , how do they know but our Lord was mov'd to Sit at the Sacrament by Special Reasons drawn from that Time and Place , or the Feast of the Passover , to which that Gesture was peculiar ? How do they know , but that our Lord might have us'd another Gesture , if the Sacrament had been Instituted apart from the Passover ? The necessity of the time made the Jews eat the Passover after one fashion in Egypt , which afterward ceasing , gave occasion to alter it in Canaan ; and how do we know , but that our Lord comply'd with the present necessity , and that his Example ( if he did Sit ) was only temporary , and not design'd for a Standing Law , perpetually obliging to a like Practice ? If Christ acted upon special Reasons , then we are not obliged , by their own Rule : and if he did not , let them produce the Reasons if they can , which make this Example of Christ of general and perpetual use , and to oblige all Christians to follow it . 4. 'T is absurd to talk of Christ's Example apart from all Law and Rule , and to make that alone a principle of duty distinct from the Precepts of the Gospel , because Christ himself alwaies govern'd his actions by a Law. For if we consider him as a Man , he was obliged by the Natural Law , as a Jew by the Mosaic Law , as the Messias by the Gospel-Law . He came to fulfil all Righteousness , and to Teach and Practise the whole Will of God. If therefore we look only to his Example , without considering the various capacities and relations he bare , both towards God and towards us , and the several Laws by which he stood bound , which were the Measures of his Actions ; we shall miserably mistake our way , and act like Fools , when we do such things as he did pursuant to infinite Wisdom . Thus , if we shou'd subject our selves to the Law of Moses , as he did , we shou'd thereby frustrate the great design of the Gospel : and yet even this we are obliged to do , if his Example alone be a sufficient warrant for our actions . Thus it appears that Christ's bare Example do's not oblige us to do any thing , that is not commanded . I shall only add , that they who urge the Example of Christ against Kneeling at the Sacrament , do not follow it themselves . For our Saviour probably us'd a Leaning Gesture ; and by what Authority do they change it to Sitting ? Certainly , our changing the Gesture is as warrantable as theirs . Nor is it enough to say , that Sitting comes nearer our Saviour's Gesture than Kneeling ; for if they keep to their own Rule , they must not vary at all . The Presbyterians ( if one may argue from their Practices to their Principles ) lay very little stress on this Argument taken from the Example of Christ . For tho' they generally chuse to Sit , yet they do not condemn Standing as Sinful , or Unlawful in it self ; and several are willing to receive it in that posture , in our Churches ; which surely is every whit as wide from the Pattern our Lord is suppos'd to have set us , ( whether he lay along or sate upright ) as that which is injoin'd and practis'd by the Church of England . There is too a Confessed variation allow'd of and practis'd by the generality of Dissenters , both Presbyterians and Independents , from the Institution and Practice of Christ and his Apostles , in the other Sacrament of Baptism . For they have chang'd dipping into sprinkling ; and 't is strange , that those who scruple kneeling at the Lord's Supper , can allow of this greater change in Baptism . Why shou'd not the Peace and unity of the Church , and Charity to the Public , prevail with them to kneel at the Lord's Supper ; as much as mercy and tenderness to the Infant 's Body , to sprinkle or pour water on the Face , contrary to the first Institution ? Thirdly , kneeling is not therefore repugnant to the nature of the Lord's Supper , because 't is no Table-Gesture . The Sacrament is a Supper ; and therefore , say they , the Gesture at the Lord's Table ought to be the same , which we use and observe at our ordinary Tables , according to the custom and fashion of our Native Country : and by consequence , we ought to Sit , and not to Kneel , because sitting is the ordinary Table-gesture , according to the mode and fashion of England . Here , by the way , we may observe , that this Argument overthrows the two others drawn from the Command and Example of Christ . For , 1. Different Table-gestures are us'd in different Countries ; and therefore , tho' Christ did Sit , yet we are not oblig'd to Sit after his Example , unless sitting be in our Country the common Table-gesture . 2. If the Nature of the Sacrament require a Table-gesture , and that gesture in particular which is customary ; then God has not Commanded any particular gesture , because different Countries have different Table-gestures . However , I shall fu●ly Answer this Argument drawn from the Nature of the Sacrament , by shewing , 1. What is the Nature of it . 2. That it do's not absolutely require a common Table-gesture . 3. That Kneeling is very agreeable to the nature of the Lord's Supper , tho' 't is no Table-gesture . 1. Then , the Nature of the Sacrament is easily understood , if we consider that the Scripture calls it the Lord's Table and the Lord's Supper . The Greek Fathers call it a Feast and a Banquet , because of that Provision and Entertainment which our Lord has made for all worthy Receivers . 'T is styl'd a Supper and a Feast , either because 't was Instituted by Christ at Supper-time , or because it represents a Supper and a Feast ; and so it is not of the same nature with a civil and ordinary Supper or Feast , tho' it bear the same name . Three things are essential to a Feast , Plenty , Good Company and Mirth : but the Plenty of the Lord's Supper is a Plenty of Spiritual Dainties ; and the Company consists of the Three Persons of the Trinity , and good Christians ; and the Mirth is wholly Spiritual . So that the Lord's Supper differs in its nature from civil Banquets , as much as Heaven and Earth , Body and Spirit differ in theirs . Farther , the Lord's Supper is a Feast upon a Sacrifice for Sin , wherein we are particularly to commemorate the Death of Christ . 'T was also instituted in honour of our Lord , and to preserve an Eternal Memory of his wondrous Works , and to Bless and Praise our Great Benefactour . 'T is also a Covenanting Rite between God and all worthy Communicants , and signifies that we are in a state of Peace and Friendship with him ; that we own him to be our God , and swear Fidelity to him ; we take the Sacrament upon it ( as we ordinarily say ) that we will not henceforth live unto our selves , but to him alone that died for us . 'T is also a means to convey to us the Merits of Christ's Death , and a Pledge to assure us thereof . Lastly , 't was instituted to be a Bond of Union between Christians , to engage and dispose us to love one another , as our Lord loved us , who thought not his Life too dear , nor his Blood too much to part with for our sakes . This therefore being the Nature of the Sacrament , it follows , 2. That it do's not absolutely require a common Table-gesture . For if the Nature of the Sacrament , consider'd as a Feast , necessarily requires a Table-gesture ; then the nature of the Sacrament , consider'd as a Feast , do's as well require all other Formalities that are essential , either to all civil Feasts whatsoever , or to all Feasts as they obtain among us : and consequently we must carve and drink one to another , &c. at the Lord's Supper , as we alwaies do at other Feasts . But this our Dissenters will by no means allow ; nor do they think themselves obliged to observe all the other Formalities of a Feast , tho' they are as agreeable to the Nature of a Feast , as Sitting is . It 's not agreeable to the Nature of a Feast , that one of the Guests , and the principal one too , shou'd fill out the Wine , and break the Bread , and distribute it to the rest of the Society ; but this the Dissenters generally allow of , and practise at the Holy Communion . It 's not agreeable to the nature of a Feast to sit from the Table , dispers'd up and down the Room . In all public Feasts there are several Tables provided , when one is not big enough to receive the Guests ; and yet the Dissenters generally receive in their Pews , scatter'd up and down the Church , and think one Table is sufficient , tho' not capable of receiving the twentieth part of the Communicants in some large Parishes and numerous Assemblies . And where there are so few , that they may come up to , and sit at the Table , they generally are against it ( especially the Presbyterians ) and think they are not obliged to observe that formality , tho' constantly practis'd at common and civil Entertainments . It 's by no means agreeable to the nature of a Feast to be sorrowful . To mourn and grieve at a Feast is as indecent and unsutable , as to laugh at a Funeral . But sure our Dissenters will not say , that to come to the Sacrament with a penitent and broken spirit ; to come with a hearty sorrow for all our Sin , which caus'd so much pain and torment to our dearest and greatest Friend , our ever blessed Redeemer ; to reflect upon the Agonies of his Soul in the Garden , the bitterness of his deadly Cup , the Torture he endur'd on the Cross , with a deep Sympathy and Trouble for the occasion ; they will not surely , I say , affirm , that such a disposition of Heart and Mind is improper and unsutable to the Nature of this Feast , which we solemnize in Commemoration of his Death for our sakes . This Sacrament is also call'd the Lord's Supper ; and consequently the nature of it requires the Evening , as the proper season for it : and yet our Dissenters make no scruple of Communicating at Noon . Again , the nature of the Lord's Supper do's not necessarily require a Table-gesture , because 't is not of the same nature with common and ordinary Feasts . For we cannot argue from Natural and Civil things to Spiritual ; or conclude that , because they agree in their names , they are of the same nature . And therefore , tho' the Sacrament is a Feast ; yet because 't is a Spiritual Feast , and not of the same nature with common and ordinary Feasts , we must not think , that such a gesture as is necessary to the one , is also necessary to the other . I must add , that the nature of the Lord's Supper , consider'd as a Feast , do's not necessarily require a common Table-gesture in order to right and worthy receiving ; because the Dissenters grant , that it may be worthily receiv'd Standing , tho' Standing is no common Table-gesture . If any shou'd yet urge , that no gesture besides Sitting is agreeable to the nature of the Sacrament , consider'd as a Feast ; and that to use any other gesture wou'd profane the Ordinance ; I answer , that God calls the Passover a Feast , Exod. 12.14 . and yet he commanded the Israelites to celebrate it with their Loins girt , their Shoes on their Feet , and their Staff in their Hands ; which were all signs of haste , but no Table-gestures either among the Jews or the Egyptians . Now to say , that God injoin'd Gestures unsutable to that Ordinance , is to call his Wisdom in question : and to say , that the Feast of the Passover did in it's nature admit of several Gestures , is to yield all that I desire ; for then the Sacrament , consider'd as a Feast , will admit of several too , and consequently do's not oblige us to observe only a Feast-gesture for the due celebration of it . 3. Kneeling is very agreeable to the nature of the Lord's Supper , tho' 't is no Table-gesture . 1. Because 't is a very fit Gesture to express Reverence , Humility and Gratitude by ; which Holy affections are requisite to the Sacrament . 2. Since Christ ought to be Ador'd at the Lord's Supper for his wonderful kindness to us , therefore whatsoever is fit to express our Veneration , is not unsutable to the Sacrament ; and consequently bowing the Knees is proper , because 't is an external sign of Reverence . 3. Since lifting up our Hands and Eyes , and imploying our Tongues in uttering God's Praises , are agreeable to the Lord's Supper ; why shou'd Kneeling be thought unsutable , which is only Glorifying God with another part of our Body ? 4. The Holy Sacrament was Instituted in remembrance of Christ's Death and Sufferings ; and therefore I desire the Dissenters to consider his Gesture in the very extremity of his Passion , and to observe , that he then pray'd Kneeling , Luke 22.41 . And surely no sober Person will say , that 't is improper to Kneel at the Sacrament , where we Commemorate those Sufferings , part of which he endur'd upon his bended Knees . 5. If we consider the benefits of the Sacrament , we cannot think Kneeling an unbecoming Gesture at it . If a grateful hearty sence of God's infinite Mercy thro' the Merits and Sufferings of his Son , and of the manifold Benefits which our Lord has purchas'd with his most precious Blood ; If a Mind deeply humbled under the sense of our own Guilt , and Unworthiness to receive any Mercy at all from the Hands of our Creator and Soveraign Lord , whom we have by numberless and heinous Crimes so highly provok'd and incens'd against us ; If such an inward temper and disposition of Soul becomes us at this Holy Feast , ( which I think no Man will deny ) then surely the most humble and reverential Gesture of the Body will become us too . Why shou'd not a submissive lowly deportment of body sute with this solemnity , as well as an humble lowly Mind ? And this is that which our Church (e) declares to be the end of her Injunction , in requiring all the Communicants to Kneel , viz. for a signification of an humble and grateful acknowledgment of the Benefits of Christ therein given to all worthy Receivers . The Commemoration of the Death and Passion of the Son of God will strike a Man , almost naturally , into the humblest posture of Adoration : But if any reverence be due at such a time , I am sure Sitting is a very unfit posture to express it . In a word , whatsoever Gesture best answers the Principal ends of this Holy Feast , do's best sute it 's nature , and ought to be best esteem'd of , if we will be guided by the nature of the thing : and that Kneeling do's best answer the Nature and Ends of the Lord's Supper , I think , I have fully prov'd . I shall crave Leave to observe in the last place , that the Primitive Church had no such Notion of the necessity of a Table-gesture , as the Dissenters maintain . There is not the least mention made of the name Table , in any of their Writings , for the space of 200 years after Christ . For they call the Place , on which the Consecrated Elements stood , the Altar ; and the Eucharist they call an Oblation and a Sacrifice : and what connexion , I Pray , is there between an Altar or a Sacrifice , and a Table-gesture ? The Dissenters indeed (f) say , that Kneeling or an Adoring-gesture is against the dignity of Guests , and debars us the Privileges and Prerogatives of the Lord's Table , such as social admittance and social entertainment ; that it is against the purpose of Christ , whose intention was to dignify us by setting us at his Table ; and much more of this nature : but 't is plain that the Fathers thought otherwise , as the Phrases they use , and the Titles they give the Sacrament , plainly demonstrate . They call it as St. Paul doth , the Lord's Supper , the Kingly , Royal , and most Divine Supper , which import Deference , Distance , and Respect on our parts ; the Dreadful Sacrifice , the Venerable and Vnbloody Sacrifice , the Wonderful and Terrible Mysteries , the Royal , Spiritual , Holy , Formidable , Tremendous Table . The Bread and Wine after Consecration , are in their Language call'd the most Mysterious , most Holy Food and Nutriment , the most Holy things ; and the place where the Table stood , the most Holy part of the Temple , in allusion to that of the Jewish Temple , to which the Jews paid the highest Reverence . The Bread in particular they styl'd the Bread of God ; the Cup , the Holy and Mysterious , the Royal and Dreadful Cup. They advise the Communicants to Reverence these Holy Mysteries , to come with Fear and Trembling , with Sorrow and Shame , with silence and down-cast Eyes , to keep their Joy within , and to approach the Table with all the Signs and Expressions of Reverence and Humility imaginable . How can these Speeches consist with that Social , Familiar carriage at the Sacrament , which the Patrons of the Table-gesture contend for , as the Privilege of Guests , and the Prerogative of the Lord's Table ? Fourthly , I am to shew that Kneeling at the Lord's Supper is not contrary to the general Practice of the Church in the first Ages . This I shall do by proving , 1. That it 's highly probable , that the Primitive Church us'd to Kneel in the act of receiving the Holy Sacrament , as our custom at present is . 2. That it 's most certain they us'd an Adoring Posture . First then , it 's highly probable , that the Primitive Church us'd to Kneel in the act of receiving the Holy Sacrament . I have already shewn , that the Scripture do's not inform us , what Gesture was us'd at the Institution of the Lord's Supper : and I desire those , who contend for a common Table-gesture , and particularly Sitting , to observe , that the Primitive Church thought sitting to be a very irreverent Posture in the Service of God. The Laodicean Synod , finding great inconveniences to arise from the Love-Feasts , which were kept at the same time with the Lord's Supper , forbad the said Feasts , and the lying upon Couches in the Church , as their manner was at those Feasts . The same Practice was forbidden by the Council of Carthage , c. 28. and the Decree was Ratify'd by the sixth Trullian Council , c. 74. and that under the pain of Excommunication . Now the Reasons , upon which 't was forbidden , were in all probability taken from the disorder and irreverence , the animosities and excess , that accompany'd those Feasts . Justin Martyr , who liv'd in the Second Century , saies , We rise up together and send up our Prayers , Apol. 2. from whence 't is clear that they did not Sit : but in most other places they were not permitted to sit at all , not so much as at the Lessons or in Sermon-time ; as appears plainly from what Philostorgius (g) observes of Theophilus an Indian Bishop , That among several irregularities , which he corrected in those Churches , he particularly Reform'd this , That the People were wont to Sit , when the Lessons out of the Gospel were read unto them ; and Sozomen (h) notes it as a very unusual thing in the Bishop of Alexandria , that he did not rise up when the Gospels were read . Optatus Bishop of Milevis (i) cites a passage out of the 50. Psalm , and applies it home to Parmenianus the Donatist , after this manner ; Thou sittest and speakest against thy Brother , &c. in which place God reproves him that sits and defames his Brother : and therefore such evil Teachers as you , saies he , are more particularly pointed at in the Text , For the People are not Licens'd to sit in the Church . Now if it had not been the general Custom to stand the whole time of Divine Service , and particularly at the Lessons and Sermons , Parmenianus might easily have retorted this Argument upon Optatus , as concluding nothing against him in particular , but what might be charg'd in common upon all private Christians , who sate in the Church as well as he . (k) Tertullian reproves it as an ill custom , that some were wont to sit at Prayer ; and a little further in the same Chapter he has these words ; Add thereunto the Sin of irreverence , which the very Heathen , if they did perceive well and understand what we did , wou'd take notice of . For if it be irreverent to sit in the presence of , and to confront , one whom you have a high respect and veneration for ; how much more irreligious is this gesture in the sight of the living God , the Angel of Prayer yet standing by ? Vnless we think fit to upbraid God that Prayer has tir'd us . Eusebius also (l) commends Constantine , because when he was present at a long Panegyric concerning Christ's Sepulchre , and was sollicited to sit down , he refus'd to do so , saying , it was unfit to attend upon any Discourse concerning God with ease and softness , and that it was very consonant to Piety and Religion , that Discourses about Divine things shou'd be heard standing . Thus much may suffice for satisfaction , that the ancient Church did by no means approve of Sitting , or a common Table-gesture , as fitting to be us'd in Divine Service , except at the Reading of the Lessons , and hearing of the Sermon ; which too was only practis'd in some places ; for in others the People were not allow'd to sit at all in their Religious Assemblies . Which Custom is still observ'd in most , if not all the Eastern Churches at this day , wherein there are no Seats erected or allow'd for the use of the People . Now if the Apostles had Taught and Establish'd Sitting ( not only as convenient , but ) as necessary to be us'd in order to worthy receiving the Lord's Supper ; 't is most strange and unaccountable , 1. That there shou'd be such an early and universal revolt of the Primitive Church from the Doctrine and Constitutions of the Apostles . 2. That so many Churches in distant Countries , being perfectly Free and Independent one upon another , shou'd unanimously conspire together to introduce a novel-custom contrary to the Apostolical Practice and Order ; and not only so , but that , 3. They shou'd censure the practice and injunctions of inspir'd Men , as indecent and unfit to be follow'd and observ'd in the public Worship of God ; and all this without any Person 's taking notice , or complaining or opposing , either then or in the succeeding generations . As for Standing in the time of Divine Service , both at Prayers and at the Sacrament , 't is so evident that the ancient Church did use it , that I shall not endeavour to prove it : and as for Kneeling , 't is plain the Primitive Christians us'd that gesture also . For , tho' on Sundays and the Fifty daies between Easter and Whitsunday they observ'd Standing ; yet at other times they us'd the gesture of Kneeling at their public Devotions , as appears from the authorities cited at the (m) bottom . Now since they were wont , in the first Ages of Christianity , to receive the Holy Sacrament every day ; and since (n) it was deliver'd and receiv'd with a Form of Prayer , and that on those daies when they constantly Pray'd Kneeling ; and since it is probable , that when they receiv'd the Sacrament , they did not alter the Praying-posture of the day ; therefore I conclude , that they receiv'd the Sacrament Kneeling upon those daies , on which they Pray'd Kneeling . For , since Sitting was generally condemn'd as an indecent and irreverent gesture by the Primitive Church ; and since no Man in his Wits will say , that Prostration , or lying flat upon the ground , was ever us'd in the act of receiving , or ever fit to be so ; therefore the posture of receiving must be either standing or kneeling . And from hence I gather , that on their common and ordinary daies ( when there was no peculiar reason to invite or oblige them to Stand at the Sacrament ) in all likelihood they us'd Kneeling , that is , the ordinary posture . They us'd one and the same posture ( viz. Standing ) both at their Prayers and at the Sacrament on the Lord's day , and for Fifty daies after Easter , contrary to what was usual at other times ; and why then shou'd any Man think they did not observe one and the same posture at all other times ? viz. that as at such times they did constantly Kneel at their Prayers , so they did also constantly Kneel at the Sacrament , which was given and receiv'd in a Prayer . From the strength of these Premises I may promise my self thus much success ; that whosoever shall carefully weigh and peruse them with a teachable and unprejudiced mind , shall find himself much more inclin'd to believe the Primitive Church us'd at some times to Kneel ( as we do ) at the Holy Communion , than that they never did Kneel at all , or that such a posture was never us'd or heard of , but excluded from their Congregations , as some great Advocates for Sitting have confidently proclaim'd it to the World. But Secondly , Suppose they never did Kneel as we do , yet this is most certain , that they receiv'd the Lord's Supper in an adoring posture ; which is the same thing , and will sufficiently justify the present Practice of our Church , as being agreeable to that of pure Antiquity . For the proof of this , numerous Testimonies both of Greek and Latin Fathers might be alledg'd ; but I will content my self ( and , I hope , the Reader too ) with a few of each sort , which are so plain and express , that he who will except against them , will also with the same face and assurance except against the Whiteness of Snow , and the Light of the Sun at Noon-day . And first for the Greek Fathers , let the Testimony of (o) St. Cyril be heard , than which nothing can be more plain and express to our purpose . This holy Father in a place before cited , gives Instructions to Communicants , how to behave themselves when they approach the Lord's Table , and that in the act of receiving both the Bread and the Wine . At the receiving of the Cup he advises thus ; Approach ( saies he ) not rudely stretching forth thy hands , but bowing thy self , and in a posture of Worship and Adoration , saying Amen . To the same purpose (p) St. Chrysostom speaks in his Fourteenth Homily on the First Epistle to the Corinthians , where he provokes and excites the Christians of his time to an awful and reverential deportment at the Holy Communion , by the Example of the Wise Men , who ador'd our Saviour in his Infancy , after this manner ; This Body the Wise Men reverene'd even when it lay in the Manger , and approaching thereunto worshipp'd it with fear and great trembling . Let us therefore who are Citizens of Heaven , imitate at least these Barbarians . But thou seest this Body , not in a Manger , but on the Altar ; not held by a Woman , but by the Priest , &c. Let us therefore stir up our selves , and be horribly afraid , and manifest a much greater Reverence than those Barbarians , lest coming lightly , and at a venture , we heap fire on our Heads . The same Father in another place expresly bids them to fall down and Communicate , when the Table is made ready , and the King himself there : and in order to beget in their Minds great and awful Thoughts concerning that Holy and Mysterious Feast , he further exhorts them , (p) That when they saw the Chancel doors open , then they shou'd suppose Heaven it self was unfolded from above , and that the Angels descended , to be Lookers on . I suppose he means , of their Courage and Behaviour at the Table of the Lord , and by giving their attendance to grace that Solemnity . With the Testimony of these Ancient Writers Theodoret agrees , who in a Dialogue between an Orthodox Christian and an Heretic , brings in Orthodoxus thus Discoursing of the Supper of the Lord. The mysterious Symbols or Signs in the Sacrament ( viz. Bread and Wine ) depart not from their proper Nature ; for they continue in their former Essence , and keep their former Shape and Form , and approve themselves both to our sight and touch to be as they were before : (q) but they are consider'd for such as they are made , ( that is , in respect to their Spiritual signification , and that Divine use to which they were consecrated ) and are believ'd and ador'd a● those very things which they are believ'd to be . Which words plainly import thus much , that the consecrated Elements were receiv'd with a Gesture of Adoration ; and at the same time assure us , that such a Behaviour at the Lords supper was not founded upon the Doctrine of Transubstantiation . For there is not a more manifest instance in all the Ancients against that absurd Doctrine , which the Roman Church so obstinately believes at this very day , than what Theodoret gives us in the words abovemention'd . Lastly , ( to alledge no more out of the Greek Fathers ) that Story which Gregory Nazianzen (r) relates concerning Gorgonia , will much confirm what has been said , viz. That being sick , and having used several Medicins in vain at last she resolv'd upon this course . She went in the stilness of the Night to the public Church , and having with her some of the consecrated Elements which she had reserv'd at home , she fell down on her knees before the Altar , and with a loud voice pray'd to him whom she Ador'd , and in conclusion was healed . I am not much concern'd , whether the Reader will believe or censure this Miracle ; but it 's certain , that this famous Father has Recorded it and commends his Sister for the way she took for her Recovery . This is home to my purpose ; and clearly discovers that Gorgonia did Kneel , or at least us'd a Posture of Adoration when she ate the Sacramental Bread. And without doubt in Communicating she observ'd the same Posture that others generally did in public : She did that in her sickness , which all others us'd to do in their health , when they came to the Sacrament ; that is , She Kneeled down . For it can't be suppos'd , that at this time , when she came to beg so great a Blessing of Almighty God in the public Church and at the Altar , call'd by the Ancients The Place of Prayer , she wou'd be guilty of any misbehaviour , and make use of a singular Posture , different from what was generally us'd by Christians when they came to the same place to communicate , and pray over the great Propitiatory Sacrifice ; which they lookt upon as the most prevailing and effectual way of Praying , the most likely to render God favourable to them , and to prevail with him above all other Prayers which they offer'd at any other time , or in any other place . So much for the Authorities of the Greek Fathers , who were Men eminent for Learning and Piety in their Daies , and great Lights and Ornaments in the Primitive Church . With these the Latin Fathers fully agree in their Judgments concerning our present Case . And of these I will only mention two ( tho' more might be produc'd ) and those very eminent and illustrious Persons , had in great veneration by the then present Age wherein they flourish'd , and by succeeding Generations . The first is (ſ) St. Ambrose Bishop of Milan , in a Book he wrote concerning the Holy Ghost , where enquiring after the meaning of the Pslamist , when he exhorts Men to exalt the Lord , and to worship his Footstool , he gives us the sense in these words : That it seems to belong unto the mystery of our Lord's Incarnation ; and then goes on to shew for what Reason it may be accommodated to that Mystery , and at last concludes thus ; By the Footstool therefore is the Earth to be understood , and by the Earth the body of Christ , which at this day too we adore in the Sacrament , and which the Apostles worshipp'd in the Lord Jesus , &c. St. Austin ( Bishop of Hippo ) Comments , on the very same words and to the same purpose . For thus he resolves that Question , How or in what sense the Earth his Footstool may be worshipp'd without impiety ? Because he took earth of the earth , for flesh is of the earth ; and he took flesh of the flesh of Mary ; and because he convers'd here in the flesh , and gave us his very flesh to eat unto Salvation . Now there is none who eateth that flesh , but first worshippeth . We have found then how this Footstool may be ador'd ; so that we are so far from sinning by adoring , that we really sin if we do not adore . In the Judgment therefore of these Primitive Bishops , we may lawfully adore at the Mysteries , tho' not the Mysteries themselves ; at the Sacraments , tho' not the Sacraments themselves ; the Creator in the Creature which is sanctify'd , not the Creature it self ; as a late (t) Protestant Writer of great Learning and Quality among the French , distinguishes upon the forecited words of Saint Ambrose . I think it appears evident from these few Instances that the Primitive Christians us'd a posture of adoration at the Communion in the act of receiving . It were easy to bring a cloud of other Witnesses , if it were necessary so to do , either to prove or clear the Cause in hand : but since there is no need to clog the Discourse with numerous References and Appeals to Antiquity , it wou'd but obscure the Argument , and tend in all likelihood rather to confound and distaste , than convince and gratify the Reader . By what has been already alledg'd , the practice of our Church in Kneeling at the Sacrament is sufficiently justify'd , as agreeable to the Customs and Practice of pure and Primitive Christianity . For if the Ancients did at the Sacrament use a Posture of Worship and Adoration , ( which is very plain they did ) then Kneeling is not repugnant to the practice of the Church in the first and purest Ages ; no , tho' we shou'd suppose that Kneeling was never practis'd among them : which will be plain , if we cast our Eyes a little upon that heavy Charge which some of the fiercest , but less prudent Adversaries of Kneeling have exhibited against it . They object against Kneeling , as being an adoring Gesture ; for they affirm , (u) That to kneel in the act of Receiving , before the consecrated Bread and Wine , is formal Idolatry . So also to kneel before any Creature as a memorative object of God , tho' there be no intention of giving Divine Adoration to that Creature , is Idolatry . Now if the Primitive Christians may be suppos'd to prostrate themselves before the Altar upon their first approach to it in order to Receive , or immediately after they had Receiv'd the Bread and the Cup from the Hand of the Minister ; or if they bow'd their Heads and Bodies after a lowly manner , in the act of Receiving ; or if they receiv'd it standing upright , and ate and drank at the Holy Table with their Hands and Eyes lifted up to Heaven ; then they incurr'd the Guilt of Idolatry , as well as we who Kneel at the Lords supper , in the Judgment of those Scotch Casuists ; and by Consequence , Kneeling at the Blessed Sacrament according to the Custom of our Church , is not contrary to the practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest Ages . For all those Postures before mention'd were Postures of Worship and Adoration , and us'd as such by the Primitive Christians ; especially standing , which is allow'd by the (w) Patrons of sitting , to be anciently and generally us'd in time of Divine Worship , and particularly in the act of Receiving . To conclude all with an Instance in their own Case about a common Table-Gesture , let us suppose the Primitive Christians in some places did receive the Holy Sacrament sitting , or lying along upon Beds , according to the ancient Custom in those Eastern Countries , at their common and ordinary Tables ; let us put the case that in other places they sate cross-legg'd on Carpets at the Sacrament , as the Persians and Turks eat at this day ; or that they receiv'd standing in other places , after the common mode of Feasting ; which we will suppose only at present . Cou'd any Man now object with reason against the lawfulness of sitting upright at the Sacrament upon a Form or Chair ( according to the Custom of England ▪ ) as being contrary to the Practice of all the Ancients , who never sate at all ? No certainly . For tho' they differ from the Ancients as to the site of their Bodies , and the particular manner of Receiving ; yet they all consent in this , that they receive in a common Table-Gesture . They all observe the same Gesture at the Sacrament , that they constantly observ'd at their Civil Feasts and ordinary Entertainments in the several places of their abode . And so say I in the present Case ; What tho' the Primitive Christians stood upright some of them at the Sacrament , and others bow'd their Heads and Bodies in the act of Receiving , and none of them ever us'd Kneeling ? Yet they and we do very well agree for all that , because we all receive in an adoring or worshipping Posture . It is one and the same thing variously exprest , according to the modes of the different Countries . Fifthly , and lastly , I am to Prove , that Kneeling is not therefore unlawful , because 't was first introduced by Idolaters , and is still notoriously abus'd by the Papists to Idolatrous ends and purposes . This will appear , if we consider , 1. That it can never be prov'd , that Kneeling in the act of receiving was brought in by Idolaters , as is pretended . 2. That 't is not sinful to use such things , as are or have been notoriously abus'd to Idolatry . I. Then , it can never be prov'd , that Kneeling in the act of receiving was brought in by Idolaters . I have already made it very probable , that the Primitive Christians receiv'd the Sacrament Kneeling ; and I hope our Dissenters will not charge them with Idolatry . I know , that they pretend the Kneeling-posture was brought in by Honorius the Third ; but that which he brought in , was a reverent Bow to the Sacrament , when the Priest elevates the Patten or Chalice , or when the Host is carry'd to any Sick Person ; and not any Kneeling in the act of receiving . For these are the very words of the Decree , (x) That the Priests shou'd frequently instruct their People to Bow themselves reverently at the Elevation of the Host , when Mass was celebrated , and in like manner when the Priest carry'd it abroad to the Sick. Nay , as Bishop Stilling fleet (y) saies , tho' Kneeling at the Elevation of the Host be strictly requir'd by the Roman Church , yet in the act o● receiving it is not ; as manifestly appears by the Pope's manner of receiving , which is not Kneeling , but either Sitting , as it was in Bonaventure 's time ; or after the fashion o● Sitting , or a little Leaning upon his Throne , as he doth at this day . If any shou'd ask , when the Gesture of Kneeling came in , I confess I cannot certainly tell : but this is no Argument against , but rather for the ancient and universal use of it . Novel-customs are easily traced to their Originals : but generally we cannot tell from whence the most ancient usages of any Country are deriv'd . However , I am so far from thinking ( as our Dissenters do ) that Kneeling owes its birth to the Doctrine of Transubstantiation , that I verily believe that the Kneeling or Adoring posture us'd by the ancient Christians in the act of receiving , did very much ( among other things ) conduce to beget and nurse up in the minds of superstitious and fanciful Men , a conceit , that Christ was really and corporally present at the Sacrament ; which Notion , by subtil and inquisitive heads , was in a little time improv'd and explain'd after this manner : That after the Elements of Bread and Wine were consecrated , they were thereby chang'd into the substance of Christ's natural Body and Blood. This I am sure of , that the Patrons of Transubstantiation did very early make use of this very Argument , to prove that they taught and believ'd no more than the Primitive Bishops and Christians did . For what else cou'd they intend or mean ( say they ) by that extraordinary Reverence and Devotion , which they manifested when they receiv'd the dreadful Mysteries ( as they call'd the Bread and Wine ) if they were bare and empty Signs only , and not chang'd into the very Body and Blood of Christ ? Which is in effect the very Argument us'd by (z) Algerus , a stout Champion for Transubstantiation . And (a) Costor , another Popish Writer , is so far from saying , even after Transubstantiation took place , that the Pope introduced it , that he resolves it into an ancient Custom continu'd from the Apostles times . But , II. Suppose it were otherwise , yet 't is not sinful to use such things , as are or have been notoriously abus'd to Idolatry , as I shall shew in the next Chapter . I shall only observe at present , that if it be sinful to kneel at the Sacrament , because that Gesture has been , and is notoriously abus'd by Papists to Idolatrous ends ; then Sitting is also sinful , which is contended for with so much Zeal . For the Pope himself fits , in the act of receiving , as was before noted ; and that for the same Reason ( saies a (b) Popish Author ) which our Dissenters urge for Sitting , viz. because the Apostles sate at the first Institution of the Sacrament . And every Priest by the order of the Mass-Book , is to partake standing at the Altar , and not Kneeling there . Nay , if Kneeling be unlawful , because it has been abus'd to Idolatry ; then we must never receive the Holy Sacrament . For we must receive in some convenient posture , such as Kneeling , Sitting , Discumbing , Standing ; and yet every one of these , either has been or is , notoriously abus'd by Heathens and Papists to Idolatrous ends . I hope , I need not add , that it wou'd be very unjust , to say , that our Kneeling is an act of Worship to the outward Elements ; when the Church has declar'd this to be Idolatry to be Abhorr'd of all Faithful Christians . I shall conclude this Chapter with the opinions of the Dissenting Writers . Mr. Tombes has undertaken to shew , that whatever the Gesture of our Saviour was , yet we are not obliged to it , Theod. p. 168. 'T is granted by Mr. Bains , Christian Lett. 24. and Mr. Bayly , Disswas . c. 2 , 6. that the nature of the Ordinance do's not make Sitting necessary , or forbid Kneeling ; and Mr. Bains , ibid. grants that Kneeling is not Idolatrous ; and Mr. Cartwright , who thought it inconvenient , yet did not think it unlawful , Harmon . on Luke , 22.14 . Lastly , Mr. Baxter , Christian Dir. part 2. p. 111. quest . 3. sect . 40. saies , For Kneeling , I never heard any thing yet to prove it unlawful . If there be any thing , it must be either some Word of God , or the nature of the Ordinance which is suppos'd to be contradicted . But , 1. there is no Word of God for any Gesture , nor against any . Christ 's Example can never be prov'd to oblige us more in this , than in many circumstances , that are confess'd not obligatory ; as that he deliver'd but to Ministers , and but to a Family , to Twelve , and after Supper , and on a Thursday - night , and in an upper-room , &c. and his Gesture was not such a Sitting as ours . And , 2. for the nature of the Ordinance , it is mixt : and if it be lawful to take a Pardon from the King upon our Knees , I know not what can make it unlawful to take a Seal'd Pardon from Christ ( by his Embassador ) upon our Knees . CHAP. VIII . The Objection of our Symbolizing or Agreeing with the Church of Rome Answer'd . BUT , say the Dissenters , there is so great an agreement between your Church and the Church of Rome , that we cannot think communion with your Church to be Lawful . They tell us , that our first Reformers were indeed excellent and worthy Persons for the times they liv'd in ; that what they did was very commendable , and a good Beginning ; but they were forced to comply with the necessities of the Age , which wou'd not bear a compleat Reformation . They left a great deal of Popish trash in the Church , hoping by degrees to reconcile the Papists to it , or at least , that they might not make the Breach too wide , and too much prejudice or enstrange them from it : but we now live under better means , have greater Light and Knowledge , and so a further and more perfect amendment is now necessary . Now I cannot but inwardly reverence the Judgment , as well as love the Temper of our first Reformers , who in their first Separations from Rome , were not nice or scrupulous beyond the just reasons of things . Doubtless they were in earnest enough , as to all true Zeal against the Corruptions of that Church , when they Seal'd the well-grounded offence they took at them , with their warmest Blood ; and cheerfully underwent all the hardships that the Primitive Christians signaliz'd their Profession with , rather than they wou'd intermix with Rome , in any usage of Worship or Article of Faith , that had the least favour of Idolatry , Superstition , or false Religion at all in it . And yet these Holy and Wise Men , when they had the Power and Opportunity of Reforming wholly in their hands , being equally jealous of Enthusiasm , as they were of Superstition , wou'd not give themselves up to those fantastic Antipathies , as to abolish this or that Ceremony , merely because it had been in use among the Papists , if some other very substantial Reason did not plead against it . And verily , had they not alwaies us'd these temperate and unbyass'd methods of Reformation , they wou'd not so easily have justify'd themselves to their Adversaries , or the World ; or have made it so evident ( as by their Wise management they did ) that what was done by them , was from the mere urgencies of Conscience and Reason , and not the wantonness of Change and Innovation . So that , where any mean honestly ( as I doubt not but many of those do , that Dissent from us ) they ought to have their Reason very well awake , that the mere charge of Popery upon any disputed point , may not so prejudice them in their enquiries into things , as to leave no room for mature Consideration . However , that I may fully answer this objection , drawn from our agreement with the Church of Rome , I shall endeavour to shew , 1. That there is a vast distance between the Churches of England and Rome . 2. That a Church's Symbolizing or agreeing in some things with the Church of Rome , is no warrant for separation from the Church so agreeing . 3. That the agreement between the Churches of England and Rome , is in no wise such , as will make Communion with the Church of England unlawful . I. Then , I shall shew that there is a vast distance between the Churches of England and Rome ; as appears by our Church's having renounced all Communion with Rome , and utterly cast off the Pope's Power . But I shall descend to particulars , and shew the vast distance between them , First , In all those Doctrines and Practices , whereby the Church of Rome deprives her Members of their due Liberty , and miserably enslaves them . For , 1. She denies them all judgment of discretion in matters of Religion , and binds them all , under pain of damnation , to Believe her infallible : but our Church permits us to prove all things , that we may hold fast that which is good ; she disclaims all pretence to infallibility , and owns her self to be obnoxious to error in matters of Faith. 2. The Church of Rome imposes a most slavish drudgery in the vast multitudes of vain and childish , odd and uncouth Rites and Ceremonies , which a Man wou'd wonder how they cou'd invent . The like may be said of their cruel Penances , in imposing of which the Priests are arbitrary . But our Rites are exceeding few , plain , easy , grave and manly ; founded on the Practice of the Church , long before Popery appear'd in the World. Our Sacraments are but two ; and consequently we are not burden'd with the superstitious Fopperies of the other five Popish ones . In short , our Rites are agreeable to the Rules of doing things decently , and in order , and doing all things to Edification . Nor do's our Church impose them ( like the Church of Rome ) as necessary , and as parts of Religion , but as merely indifferent and changeable things . As for our Penances , 't is needless to shew that they are not cruel , like those of Rome . 3. The Church of Rome subjects her Members by several of her Doctrines to enslaving passions . For instance , Purgatory subjects them to fear , and auricular confession to shame , and the dependence of the efficacy of the Sacraments upon the Priest's intention exposes them to great anxiety . But our Church rejects the Doctrines of Purgatory , and the dependence of the efficacy of the Sacraments upon the Priest's intention ; and do's not oblige her Members to Confess their sins to Men , but when for the relief of their Consciences , or making satisfaction , &c. it is their duty so to do . 4. The Church of Rome maintains Licentious Principles and Practices , which our Adversaries cannot charge upon the Church of England . Secondly , In all those Doctrines and Practices in which the Church of Rome is justly charg'd with plainly contradicting the Scripture . For instance , our Church rejects and utterly abhors the Popish Doctrines and Practices of Image-worship , invocation of Saints , Transubstantiation , Pardons , Indulgences , Sacrifice of the Mass , denying the Bible to the Vulgar , Prayers and Sacraments in an unknown Tongue , robbing the Laity of the Cup in the Lord's Supper , prohibiting Marriage to Priests , Merit , Superogation , making simple Fornication a mere venial sin , damning all that are not of her Communion , &c. Nor is there any Church , that more severely condemns all instances of unrighteousness and immorality , than the Church of England do's . Thirdly , In their public Prayers and Offices . To shew this in all particulars wou'd be a tedious task ; therefore I shall instance only in the office of Infant-Baptism , by which the Reader may judge of the rest . Before they go into the Church , after many preparatory prescriptions , the Priest being drest in a Surplice and purple Robe , calls the Infant , saying , what askest thou , &c. the Godfather answers , Faith. P. What shalt thou get by Faith ? G. Eternal Life . P. If thou therefore , &c. Then the Priest blows three gentle puffs upon the Infant 's face , and saies , Go out of him , O unclean Spirit , &c. Then Crossing the Infant 's Forehead and Breast , he saith , Receive the sign of the Cross , &c. Then he praies that God wou'd alwaies , &c. And after a long Prayer ( the Priest laying his Hand on the Infant 's Head ) comes the idle and profane Form of the Benediction of Salt ; viz. I conjure thee , O creature of Salt , in the Name , &c. with many Crossings . Then he puts a little Salt into the Infant 's mouth , saying , Take thou the Salt of Wisdom ; ( and adds most impiously ) be it thy Propitiation unto Eternal Life . After the Pax tecum he praies , that this Infant , &c. Then the Devil is conjur'd again , and most wofully be-call'd . Then the Priest Crosses the Infant 's Forehead , saying , And this sign , &c. Then he puts his Hand on the Infant 's Head , and puts up a very good Prayer . Then he puts part of his Robe upon the Infant , and brings him within the Church , saying , Enter thou , &c. Then follow the Apostles Creed and the Paternoster . Then the Devil is conjur'd again ; and the Priest takes spittle out of his mouth , and therewith touches the Infant 's Ears and Nostrils , saying , &c. Then he conjures the Devil again , saying , Be packing , O Devil , &c. Then he asks the Infant , whether he renounces the Devil , &c. Then dipping his Thumb in Holy Oyl , and anointing the Infant with it in his Breast and betwixt his shoulders , he saies , I anoint thee , &c. Then he puts off his Purple Robe , and puts on another of White colour , and having ask'd four more questions , and receiv'd the answers , he pours water thrice upon the Child's Head , as he recites over it our Saviour's Form of Baptism . Then dipping his Thumb in the Chrism or Holy Ointment , he anoints the Infant upon the Crown of his Head in the figure of a Cross , and praies , O God Omnipotent , &c. Afterwards he takes a white linnen cloth , and putting it on the Child's Head , saies , Take the white garment , &c. Lastly , he puts into the Child's or his God-Father's Hand , a lighted Candle , saying , Receive the burning Lamp , &c. Besides those things which are in the Common Ritual , there are divers others added in the Pastorale , which I shall not mention . And now , if any Man will read our Office of Baptism , he will acknowledge , that no two things can be more unlike , than these two Offices are . Our Litany indeed has been Condemn'd by Dissenters , as savouring of Popish Superstition ; but nothing is more false , if a Man compares it with the Popish one , the greater part of which consists in invocations of Saints and Angels . But the Brevity I am confin'd to in this Discourse , will not permit me to abide any longer upon this Argument . Fourthly , In the Books they receive for Canonical . For the Church of Rome takes all the Apocryphal Books into the Canon : but the Church of England takes only those , which the Primitive Church and all Protestants acknowledge . 'T is true , she reads some part of the Apocryphal Books for instruction of manners : but she do's not establish any Doctrine by them . Fifthly and Lastly , in the Authority on which they found their whole Religion . The Church of Rome founds the Authority of the Scriptures upon her own infallibility ; and the Authority of many of her own Doctrines on unwritten traditions and the Decrees of her Councils , which she will have to be no less inspir'd than the Prophets and Apostles : but the Church of England builds her whole Religion upon Scripture , which is her rule of Faith and Practice . She Reverences ancient general Councils : but do's not think them infallible . And as for that Authority , which our Church claims in Controversies of Faith , by requiring subscription to 39 Articles , 't is plain that she means no more Authority , than to oblige her Members to outward submission , when her decisions do not contradict any essentials of Faith or Manners ; but not an authority to oblige Men to believe them infallibly true ; and this is necessary for the Peace of any Church . 'T is true , she thinks it convenient , that none should receive Orders , be admitted to Benefices , &c. but such as do believe them , not all as Articles of our Faith , but many as inferiour truths ; and she requires Subscription as a Test of this belief : but the Church of Rome requires all Persons under pain of damnation to believe all her false and wicked Doctrines , as much as the most undoubted Articles of Faith ; as may be seen in the Creed of Pius the fourth . As to the Motives which our Church proposes for our belief of the Doctrine of the Holy Scriptures , they are such as are found in the Scriptures themselves ; viz. the excellency of them , and the Miracles which confirm them : and as to the truth of the Matters of fact , she places it ( not in the testimony of any particular Church , but ) in the Vniversal Tradition of Jews and Pagans , as well as of all Christians . II. I am to shew , that a Church's symbolizing or agreeing in some things with the Church of Rome , is no warrant for separation from the Church so agreeing . The Dissenters tell us , that those things which are indifferent in their own nature , do cease to be indifferent and become sinful , if they have been us'd by the Church of Rome . For , say they , we read , Lev. 18.2 . After the doings of the Land of Egypt wherein ye dwell , shall ye not do , and after the doings of the Land of Canaan , whither I bring you , shall ye not do , neither shall ye walk in their Ordinances . Now , not to insist on the vast difference of our circumstances from those of the Israelites , I answer , that it is an absurd thing to imagin , that the Israelites were so bound up by God , as to be obliged to be unlike those People in all their actions . The things forbidden from verse 5 th . to 24 th . are not Indifferent , but Incestuous Copulations and acts of uncleaness ; and God do's expresly enough restrain that general Prohibition to those particulars , in saying , v. 24 th . Defile not your selves in any part of these things , for in all these the Nations are defil'd , which I cast out before you . And they were therefore forbidden under the notion of things done after the doings of the Egyptians and the Canaanites , because they were the doings of those People , whom they were exceedingly prone to imitate , even in their greatest immoralities . If it be said , that in other places God forbids the Israelites to imitate the Heathens in things of an indifferent nature ; I answer , 1. That supposing this were so , it do's not from thence follow , that God intended to forbid such imitations in this place ; the contrary being so manifest as we have seen . But , 2. That God has any where prohibited the Israelites to symbolize with Heathens , in things of a mere indifferent and innocent nature ; I mean , that he has made it unlawful for them to observe any such Customs of the Heathens , merely upon the account of their being like them , is a very great mistake : Which will appear by considering those places which are produced for it . One is Deut. 14.2 . You shall not cut your selves , nor make any baldness between your Eyes for the dead . Now , as to the former of these prohibited things , who sees not , that 't is unnatural , and therefore not indifferent ? And as to the latter , viz. the disfiguring of themselves by cutting off their Eye-brows , this was not merely indifferent neither ; it being a Custom at Funerals misbecoming the People of God ; and which wou'd make them look as if they sorrow'd for the Dead as Men without Hope . Another place is Lev. 19.19 . Thou shalt not let thy Cattel gender with a diverse Kind ; thou shalt not sow thy Ground with mingled Seed ; nor shall a garment of linnen and woollen come upon thee . But I answer , that tho' these things are indeed indifferent in their own nature , yet they are forbidden ( not because the Heathens us'd them , but ) because they were mystical instructions in moral duties . If it be objected also , that God forbad the Jews , Hos . 2.16 , 17. to call him by the Name of Baali , which was a very good Name and signify'd only My Lord , because that word was abus'd in being the name of the Idol Baal ; I answer , that God did not forbid the Name Baali , because an Idol was call'd by that Name ; for he is call'd Baal in other places of the Hebrew Bible , and also Jah , which the Heathens us'd for an Idol : but because the word Baali signifies an unkind husband or Lord , such as Baal was to his worshippers ; whereas God Promises he wou'd be call'd Ishi , that is , a tenderly-loving husband ; for he design'd to be kind to his People Israel . I shall add , that Baalim in the next verse signifies Idols , which God there Promises to destroy . But , suppose that God forbad the Jews to call him Baal for the future , yet it might be because of their vehement inclination to the worship of Baal , lest by using it they shou'd be tempted to worship him again : whereas our Ceremonies were us'd by the ancient Fathers without any Superstition or Idolatry , and we are not in danger of returning to Popery by retaining them . Well ; but they say , it appears from Scripture-precepts and examples , that it is unlawful to symbolize with the Church of Rome in things , that have been notoriously abus'd in Idolatrous and grosly Superstitious Services . To this I answer , First , that it is not sinful to use those things which have been abus'd to Idolatry , as I shall prove by these following Arguments . 1. No abuse of any Gesture , tho' it be in the most manifest Idolatry , doth render that Gesture simply evil , and for ever after unlawful to be us'd in the Worship of God upon that account . For the abuse of a thing supposes the lawful use of it ; and if any thing otherwise lawful becomes sinful by an abuse of it , then it 's plain that it is not in it's own nature sinful , but by accident , and with respect to somewhat else . This is clear from Scripture ; for if Rites and Ceremonies , after they have been abus'd by Idolaters , become absolutely evil , and unlawful to be us'd at all ; then the Jews sinn'd in offering Sacrifice , erecting Altars , burning Incense to the God of Heaven , bowing down themselves before him , wearing a Linnen Garment in the time of Divine Worship , and observing other Things and Rites which the Heathens observ'd in the worship of their false gods . If the Dissenters say , they except all such Rites as were commanded or approv'd of by God ; I reply , that such an exception avails nothing . For if the abuse of a thing to Idolatry makes it absolutely sinful , and unlawful to be us'd at all , then it 's impossible to destroy that Relation , and what has been once abus'd , must ever remain so ; that is , an infinite Power can't undo what has been done , and clear it from ever having been abus'd . And therefore I conclude from the Command and Approbation of God , that a bare conformity with Idolaters in using those Rites in the Worship of the true God , which they practise in the worship of Idols , is not simply sinful , or formal Idolatry . For if it be ; God had obliged the Children of Israel by his express Command to commit sin , and to do what he strictly and severely prohibited in other places . In truth , such a Position wou'd plainly make God the Author of sin . 2. This principle intrenches upon Christian liberty , if St. Paul himself may judge , who tells us , 1 Cor. 10.25 , &c. that to the pure all things are pure ; and affirms it lawful to eat of such things as had been offer'd up in Sacrifice to Idols , and to eat whatsoever was sold in the Shambles . And what reason is there , why a Gesture shou'd be more defil'd by Idolaters , than Meat which they had Offer'd up in Sacrifice to Idols ? and why shou'd one be sinful and Idolatrous to use , and not the other ? Certainly St. Paul wou'd never have granted them such a privilege , if he judg'd it Idolatrous to use what Idolaters had abus'd : especially considering that he in the same Chapter exhorts them earnestly to fly from Idolatry . 3. This Principle subjects the Minds of Christians to infinite fears , scruples and perplexities : whereas the true and great design of the Gospel , is to breed in Men a filial cheerful frame of heart , the spirit of love , and of a sound or quiet mind ; to give us a free , easy , comfortable access to God as to our Father ; and to encourage every good Man to a diligent , constant , and frequent attendance upon his Worship , by the delight that follows it . But now , if nothing may be us'd by us without highly offending God , that either has been , or is abus'd to Idolatry ; who sees not what trouble and distraction will arise in our Minds hereupon , when we meet together to worship God ? It 's well known that most of our Churches were erected by Idolatrous Papists , and as much defil'd by Idolatry as any Gesture can be . They are dedicated to several Saints and Angels , whose Images were once set up and ador'd . Our Bells , Pews , Fonts , Desks , Church-yards , have been consecrated after a superstitious manner . Many Cups , Flagons , Dishes , Communion-Tables , have been given and us'd by Idolaters . What now is to be done ? Perhaps all these things have been abus'd ; and if certain information cannot be had , we can't worship in public without great disquiet of Mind . 4. This Principle will destroy all public Worship . For if nothing must be us'd which has been , or is abus'd by Idolaters ; it will be in the power of Idolaters , by ingrossing all the outward marks and signs of that inward veneration and esteem which we owe to God , to smother our Devotions , so as they shall never appear in the World ; and by that means frustrate the very end and design of Religious Assemblies . And truly this work is already , by the strength of this Principle , very well effected . For kneeling at Prayers , and standing and sitting , and lifting up the Hands and Eyes to Heaven , and bowing of the Body , together with Prayer and Praise and Singing , have been all notoriously abus'd to Idolatry , and are so to this day . If the Dissenters say , they except such things as are necessary to be us'd in the Service of God , tho' they have been abus'd by Idolaters ; I reply , that so long as the reasons hold to make any thing sinful , so long it is so . If the use or abuse of any thing by Idolaters make it simply evil ; then it must for ever remain so , and no necessity whatsoever can make it lawful . So that this Principle drives us into such streights , that we must sin one way or other . For either we must not worship God in public , or we must be guilty of Idolatry if we do : and tho' of two Evils or Calamities the least is to be chosen , yet of two Sins neither is . Christian Religion flows from infinite Wisdom ; and the Laws of God do not cross one another , but are even and consistent . We are never cast by God under a necessity of sinning , of transgressing one Law by the observance of another : but thus it must be , if we take up and stick to this Principle . 5. The Dissenters condemn themselves in what they allow and practise , by the same Rule by which they condemn kneeling at the Sacrament , and other Rites of our Church . For they themselves did use , without scruple , such Places and Things and Postures as had been defil'd and abus'd by Idolaters . They were wont to be bare-headed in time of Divine Worship , at Prayer and at the Sacrament ; and so do Idolatrous Papists . They never affirm'd , that it was sinful to kneel at our Prayers , both public and private ; yet this Gesture the Papists use in their Prayers to the Virgin Mary , to the Cross , to Saints and Angels . They us'd our Churches , Church-yards , and Bells , and never thought they sinn'd against God by so doing ; tho' they knew they had been abus'd . Nay , the Directory (a) declares , That such places are not subject to any such Pollution by any Superstition formerly us'd , and now laid aside , as may render them unlawful and inconvenient . Mr. Rutherford (b) saies of Bells grosly abus'd in time of Popery , That it is unreasonable and groundless , that thereupon they should be difus'd . Upon which the Reverend Dr. Falkner has this judicious Remark ; The pretence of their convenient usefulness wou'd be no better excuse on their behalf , than was the Plea for sparing the best of the Amalekites Cattel , that they might be a Sacrifice , when God had devoted them to Destruction . For if God ( as they say ) had commanded , that all such Things and Rites shou'd be utterly abolish'd , as were of Man's devising and had been abus'd to Idolatry ; then the convenient usefulness of such Places and things will never bear them out . 6. If this Principle were true , it wou'd go nigh to throw a scorn upon all or most of the Reformations that have been made from the Church of Rome ; for they do not seem to have govern'd themselves by this Rule . Some of them in their public Confessions (c) declaring , that they might lawfully retain such Rites and Ceremonies as are of advantage to Faith , the Worship of God , or Peace and Order in the Church , tho' they had been introduced by any Synod , or Bishop , or Pope , or any other . 7. Nay , this Principle wou'd render Christianity impracticable ; because there is no Circumstance , no Instrument , no Ministry in Worship , but may have been some way or other abus'd by Pagan or Romish Idolatries . It wou'd make every Garment , of what shape , or of what colour soever , unfit for use in our Religious Service ; for not only the White , but the Red , the Green , and the Black , have been us'd ( even for the significancy of their respective Colours ) by the Gentile or Romanist , to very superstitious purposes in Divine Worship . Secondly , There is no express Precept of this nature , and the Texts alledg'd do not infer it . For , 1. Tho' some Churches are blam'd for suffering some to teach the People to eat things sacrificed to Idols , Rev. 2.14 , 20. yet the instance is impertinent , because that was no better than Communicating in Idol-worship , as the Gnostics did . But St. Paul declares , 1 Cor. 8. and chap. 10.27 , 28 , 29. that eating things offer'd to Idols without any respect to Idols in cating is unlawful upon no other account , but that of Scandal . 2. St. Jude's words , v. 23. hating even the garment spotted by the flesh , teach us indeed to be as cautious of temptations to sin , as of the Garments of infected Persons ; but there is no danger , when they are well cleans'd from infection . 3. Tho' the Jews were commanded to destroy Idols and the appurtenances of them , Deut. 7.25 , 26. Is . 20.22 . because they were so prodigiously inclin'd to Idolatry ; yet surely the Dissenters will not say , we must destroy all things that have been abus'd to superstitious uses ; for then we must destroy our Bells and Fonts and Churches . Therefore , as Mr. Calvin , upon the Second Commandment , saies , We do not in the least scruple , whether we may lawfully use those Temples , Fonts and other Materials , which have been heretofore abus'd to Idolatrous and Superstitious uses . I acknowledge indeed , that we ought to remove such things as seem to nourish Idolatry ; upon supposition , that we our selves in opposing too evidently things in their own nature indifferent , be not too superstitious . It is equally superstitious to condemn things indifferent as unholy , and to command them as if they were holy . As for the example of Hezekiah's breaking in pieces the Brazen Serpent , because the Children of Israel burnt Incense to it , 2 Kings 18.4 . it will not prove , that whatsoever has been notoriously defil'd in Idolatrous or grosly Superstitious Services , ought to be abolish'd ; and much less , that the not abolishing some such things , is a good ground for separation from the Church that neglects so to do . For , 1. The Brazen Serpent was not only defil'd , but an Idol it self , and that at the very time when it was destroy'd . Nay , it was worshipp'd by the generality of the People ; to those daies the Children of Israel did burn Incense unto it ; and there was little hope of their being reclaim'd , while the Idol stood ; and moreover , the use of it was ceas'd for which it was first erected . Now without doubt Governours ought to take away those indifferent things which have been abus'd , when the People are inclin'd to abuse them again ; at least , if such abuse cannot probably be prevented by any other means : but then I deny that our Rites have been or are any temptation to Idolatry , or to the embracing of Popery . Had Hezekiah suffer'd the Brazen Serpent still to stand , no doubt private Persons ( who have no Authority to make public Reformations ) might lawfully have made use of it , to put them in mind of , and affect them with the wonderful mercy of God , express'd by it to their Forefathers ; notwithstanding that many had formerly made an Idol of it , and did so at that very time . And much more might they have lawfully continu'd in the Communion of the Church , so long as there was no constraint laid upon them to join with them in their Idolatry ; nor do we read of any that separated from the Church , while the Brazen Serpent was permitted to stand , as wofully abus'd as it was by the generality . 2. If Example were a good way of Arguing , we find by Hezekiah's practice in other things , he did not think it an indispensable Duty , to abolish every thing that had been made use of to Idolatry ; if it did not prove an immediate snare at that time . For as to the Temples , which Solomon had erected for no other end but the Worship of false Gods , 1 Kings 11.7 . Hezekiah did not make it his business to destroy them , as being in his time forlorn and neglected things , of which no bad use was then made . Altho' indeed King Josiah afterwards ( probably upon the increase of Idolatry , and renew'd use of those places ) found it expedient to lay them wholly waste , 2 Kings 23.13 . Let not any , says (d) Calvin , think me so austere or bound up , as to forbid a Christian without any exception , to accommodate himself to the Papists in any Ceremony or Observance ; for it is not my purpose to condemn any thing , but what is clearly evil and openly vicious . III. I proceed now in the last place to shew , that the Agreement between the Churches of England and Rome is in no wise such , as will make Communion with the Church of England unlawful . This I shall evince in the chief particulars , which our Dissenters take offence at . First Then , Episcopacy is so far from being an unlawful symbolizing with the Church of Rome , that it is an Apostolical Institution ; and shall we allow the Pope so much power , as to make that unlawful by his use , which the Apostles and their Disciples have recommended to us by theirs ? Nay , (e) Beza , P. du Moulin , and Calvin grant , that this was the Goverment of all Churches in the World , from the Apostles times for about 1500 years together . Nor do I know how the Dissenters will defend the Observation of the Lord's Day , while they contend that Episcopacy cannot be concluded from the uninterrupted tradition of the Church from the Apostles times : or how those that separate upon the account of Episcopacy , can defend the lawfulness of Communicating with any Christian Church for about 1500 years together . I shall add no more upon this point ; only I refer my Reader to Chillingworth's Institution of Episcopacy , and Stillingfleet's Unreasonableness of separation , p. 244 , &c. Secondly , Our symbolizing with the Church of Rome in having set Forms of Prayer , is so far from being culpable , that 't is highly commendable . For herein we symbolize with the Primitive Church ; nor is any thing more expedient for the public Service of God , as I have already shewn in the Third Chapter . Now if the Papists , nay if the Heathens us'd set Forms , because it was the fittest way for the Service of God ; must we be forbidden to use them ? Because they did well , are we therefore to do worse ? Thirdly , Our Liturgy in particular do's not so much symbolize with the Roman Service , as to cause a separation . For tho' some Collects are taken out of the Mass-Book ; yet that is not enough to make them unlawful . For then the Lord's Prayer , the Psalms , and a great part of the Scripture besides , and the Creeds also must never be us'd . I know it has been said , that the Scriptures being of necessary use must be retain'd by us , tho' the Church of Rome retains them : but that there is not the same Reason for Forms , which are not necessary ; and that in those we ought to go as far from that Church as we can . But what reason is there for this ? For the danger that may happen to us in coming too near them , lies in things wherein they do ill , and not in things wherein they do well . No Man can shew a good reason why those Passages in the Common-Prayer-Book , which are to be found in the Mass-Book , but which were us'd also by the Church before Romanism had corrupted it , are not as much to be valu'd , because they were once us'd by good Christians ; as to be run down , because they have been since us'd by Superstitious and Idolatrous Men. If any Man wou'd set himself to expose the Mass-Book , he wou'd , I suppose , lay hold upon nothing but the Corruptions that are in it , and things that are obnoxious to just reproof ; not on things that are justifiable , and may easily be defended . And the Reason of this is plain , because the Mass-Book is to blame for those parts of it only , but not for these . Lastly , Our symbolizing with the Church of Rome in the use of Ceremonies will not justify a separation . For ours are scarce the hundredth part of hers : nor are ours impos'd as necessary . If it be said , that Christ severely condemn'd the Jewish Traditions ; I answer that he condemn'd only those by which they made the commandments of God of none effect , and in which they placed special holiness . But to descend to particulars ; 1. The Surplice in the Church of Rome is solemnly hallow'd , &c. but we use it only for Distinction and Uniformity , and place no more holiness in it , than in the hoods which denote Degrees . Besides , in the Primitive Church Ministers did officiate in White Garments ; and Beza and Calvin were (f) against contending about the Surplice ; and , I pray , why is a Minister 's Linnen Garment more Popish , than a Lawyer 's Gown or a Judge's Robes ? Our famous Hooker (g) saies , To solemn actions of Royalty and Justice , there sutable Ornaments are a beauty ; are they only in Religion a stain ? 2. The Cross in Baptism is not us'd by us , as 't is by the Church of Rome . She enjoins numberless Crossings in the Administration of that Sacrament ; but we retain it in Conformity to the ancient practice , and have abolish'd all Superstitious abuses of it . 3. Kneeling at the Sacrament is requir'd by us , only as a reverent Gesture ; and the abuses of this kneeling in the Church of Rome are perfectly remov'd . The Papists indeed kneel to their Host , as to their God : but we do nothing like them ; for we kneel not to the Bread and Wine , but at our Receiving of them . Now what they do on no reason , why may not we do on the best ? especially when our Church declares , that Adoration of the of the Elements is Idolatry to be abhorr'd of all faithful Christians . As we are not to disuse the Holy Sacrament , because the Papists have made it an Idol : so we may continue our Reverence , tho' they have paid it Adoration . 4. The Ring in Marriage is most notoriously abus'd in the Church of Rome , as may be seen in their Office : but we practise no Superstition about it , and use it ( not as a Sacramental sign , but ) as a token of the Marriage Vow . Lastly , The Feasts and Fasts of our Church cannot be justly accounted Popish . For the time of Assembling is a Circumstance of our Worship that cannot be left to particular choice , but must be determin'd in Common ; and what is to be done at that time , must be determin'd too in an Ordinary orderly Assembly : so that it must be left to the discretion of the Governours , when we are to keep a Festival , and when a Fast . As to the Keeping of the Lord's-Day , our Church was not at Liberty ; unless she wou'd have rashly departed from Apostolical observation , and the continu'd practice of all Ages and Places since the beginning of Christianity . As for the Keeping of Easter , she was under the like Obligation ; the Annual Feast of the Resurrection , the Great Lord's-Day , being known to have been the Chief , and the Cause of all the Weekly . And as to the Fast of Good Friday , it was nigh as early as the Feast of the Resurrection . They lamented their Sins our Saviour died for on the Friday before , as constantly as they Commemorated His Rising again for our Salvation the Sunday after . And in Order to the keeping of those two Great Daies with more Devotion , there was likewise in the Church some time before-hand set apart , for better Recollection and greater Preparation ; the number of Daies was in some places more , in some less . That of Forty , had obtain'd in the Western Country ; and therefore was still kept : and wou'd to God it were as Religiously observ'd , as it was Piously appointed . Whitsunday too , the Day on which the Holy Ghost descended , was observ'd alwaies and Universally by the Ancient Church . Only the Nativity of our Saviour was of latter remembrance , but yet before Popery came in . 'T was first observ'd in the Western Church ; and afterwards taken up by the Eastern , in St. Chrysostom's time , as it stands recommended by him to the People of Antioch . Other times besides these , have been appointed for our Religious Assemblies ; in which , besides the general Worship of God , the Examples of his Saints and Martyrs are gratefully remembred and piously propos'd . Those Daies are call'd commonly by the Name of the Person then particularly Commemorated : Not that the Worship is to the Saint , or that the Day is imploy'd in his Honour ; but because on the occasion of his Memory or Martyrdom we come together , as to pay our other Duties to our God , so to thank him for the Graces of his Servant , and to be Edify'd and Instructed by the Example . It is true , the Church heretofore , when God had been bountiful to them in the Number of his Saints , increas'd in some proportion the Daies of his Worship ; and it is to be Confess'd that Popery had both acknowledg'd Saints to God , which he might not own , and gave the true Saints an Honour which they must disclaim : but with us the number of those Daies is not greater than what the Affairs of the World may well comply with ; and as the number of the Apostles is not large , so their Sanctity sure is unquestionable ; and then on those Daies we neither Beseech by their Merits , nor recommend our selves to their Intercession . You see then how unreasonable the Objection of Popery is here too : But see to what absurdity it go's on . First , it is suppos'd Popery to keep a Day in the Memory of an Apostle ; and then it is thought as Popish , to call him a Saint . A Great Person at Geneva , it seems , presum'd it somewhat Popish to observe Sunday it self ; and consider'd about changing the Day . Nay some are so perversely Superstitious on the other hand , as that That day , on which all the Christian World Remembers our Saviour's Bitter Passion , has seem'd to them the fitter for a Feast ; and the time Universally now set apart for the Joyful Memory of his Blessed Nativity , the more proper for a Fast . This indeed is not like the Papists : No , it is like a Jew or a Heathen . To conclude , by Popery nothing can be meant , but the corruptions and usurpations of the Church of Rome . For the Faith of that Church was once as fair spoken of as it's Errors are now ; and had she continu'd in that purity , we ought to have been of her Communion : and now we are to depart from her no otherwise , than she shall be found to have departed from her self , and to have corrupted that Doctrine which was once deliver'd unto the Saints . As we must not receive the Evil for the sake of the Good , so we must not reject the Good for the sake of the Evil. We have not one Doctrine or Ceremony that is purely Popish : but we must part with the best things in our Religion , if all those things are sinful , which the Papists abuse . And as for the Papists themselves , we do not in the least countenance them in those things wherein they are wrong , by agreeing with them in those things wherein they are right . CHAP. IX . The Objection of Mixt-Communion Answer'd . SOme think that the Church is to consist of none but real Saints ; and therefore finding many corrupt Members in the Church of England , they separate from her Communion , and set up Churches of their own , Consisting , in their judgment , of none but truly sanctify'd Persons . The Ground of this dangerous mistake is their false Notion of that holiness , which the Scripture applies to God's Church . Holiness in Scripture is twofold . 1. Inherent Holiness , and that can be in none properly but God , Angels and Men. In God Originally , as he is that Being , in whom all Excellencies do possess infinite Perfection ; and hence he is call'd the Holy One of Israel . In Angels and Men by way of Participation . 2. Relative Holiness founded in a Separation of any thing from common uses , and an Appropriating it to the Service of God. Thus the Sabbath is holy , and Judea and Jerusalem are holy ; and thus the Church is holy , that is , a Society separated from the World to serve God after a peculiar manner . Thus the Israelites , even when very much corrupted , were call'd God's holy People ; Deut. 7.6 . and the Apostles call the Churches by the name of Saints , tho' there were strange immoralities amongst them , because they were separated to God and in Covenant with him . Well ; but did not Christ die , that the Church shou'd be holy and without blemish , Eph. 5.27 . that is , really holy ? Yes . But then by Church we must understand not the whole Universal Church , but either that part of it which is really holy in this World , or that Church which shall be hereafter , when the corrupt Members shall be utterly cut off . Neither is this to make two Churches , but only to assign two different states of the same Church . This being premis'd , I shall prove these three Propositions ; 1. That an external profession of the Christan Faith is enough to qualify a person to be admitted a Member of Christ's Church . 2. That every such Member has a right to all the external privileges of the Church , till by the just censure of the Church he be excluded from those privileges . 3. That some corrupt Members remaining in the Church is no just cause of separation from her . First then , an external Profession of the Christian Faith ( made either by himself or by his Sureties ) is enough to qualify a Person to be admitted a Member of Christ's Church . For , 1. This is the qualification prescrib'd by our Lord , Go , teach all Nations , that is , make Disciples of all Nations , Baptizing them , &c. Matth. 28.19 . Now the Pastors of the Church cannot know the sincerity of Mens hearts , but their Profession of Christianity entitles them to baptism . By this Rule the Apostles acted whilst Christ was upon Earth , and Baptiz'd more than were sincere ; for of so many Persons that were Baptiz'd , not above 120 continu'd with Christ to the last . 2. By the same Rule they acted afterwards ; for St. Peter Baptiz'd about 3000 in one day upon their professing the Word , Acts 2.41 . tho' all wou'd not probably prove sincere ; and two of them , Ananias and Sapphira , were gross Hypocrites . St. Philip , Acts 8.12 . Baptiz'd both Men and Women at Samaria , and and amongst them was Simon Magus ; whom the holy Deacon might justly suspect for his former practices , and whose Hypocrisie appear'd afterwards . Such other Members of the Church were Demas , Hymeneus and Alexander , whose bare Profession Entitled them to that privilege . 3. Christ foretels (a) that his Church shou'd consist of Good and Bad , by comparing it to a Field of Wheat and Tares , a Net of all sorts of Fishes , a Flour of Corn and Chaff , &c. St. Paul saies , (b) they are not all Israel , that are of Israel ; and Christ saies , that many are call'd , but few chosen . 4. The many corrupt members (c) of the Churches of Corinth , Galatia , and the seven Churches in Asia , prove the same . For if the Apostles themselves admitted mere formal Professors , we may conclude , that they thought it God's Will , that it shou'd be so . 5. No other Rule in admitting Persons into the Church is practicable ; since the Officers of Christ cannot make a certain judgment of men , because they themselves have short and fallible understandings . Secondly therefore , every such member has a right to all the External privileges of the Church , till by the just censure of the Church he be excluded from those privileges . By External privileges I mean only a Communion with the Church in the Word and Ordinances ; for the pardon of sin and comforts of the Holy Ghost , &c. are Internal privileges , which belong to none but the truly Good , who are born not of water only , but of the Spirit . Now when a Man by gross and notorious wickedness has forfeited the Internal privileges of the Church , he ought by the censures of the Church to be excluded from the External privileges also : but till the sentence of the Church is past upon him , we must not forsake the Church ourselves to avoid Communion with him ; because , till then , his right to them remains inviolable , and that for several reasons . 1. Because the Baptismal Covenant gives Men a right to God's Promises , as far as they perform the conditions . If a bare federal holiness gives Men a relation to God , then it gives them a title to the blessings that belong to that relation . Not that unworthy Men shall receive the special reward of the truly Good ; but they are to be allow'd the liberty to partake of those External blessings , which he in common bestows upon the whole family . 2. Church-Membership necessarily implies Church-Communion , or else it signifies nothing . For to what purpose is a Man a Member of a Society , if he cannot enjoy the privileges of it ? 3. All the Jews were commanded to join in the public Worship , tho' I doubt many of them were wicked Livers ; and therefore mere Circumcision was enough to put a Man into a capacity of Communicating with the Jewish Church in it's most Solemn and Sacred Ordinances . 4. It appears , that St. Paul makes the Number of those that receiv'd the Lord's Supper to be as great , as that of those that were Baptiz'd . For they were all made to drink into one Spirit , 1 Cor. 12.13 . that is , in the Cup of the blessed Sacrament , and all are partakers of one Bread , 10.17 . and we read that they , all the 3000 , Ananias and Sapphira being of the number , continu'd in the Apostles Doctrine , and in breaking of Bread and in Prayer , Acts 2.42 . 5. Church-Membership is in order to the Edification and Salvation of Mens Souls ; and this cannot be attain'd without being admitted to all the Acts and Offices of Church-Communion . For it is of mighty advantage to us to hear God's Word duely Preach'd , to have our prayers join'd with those of other Christians , and our grace strengthen'd in the Holy Communion ; and these things cannot be had , but in Church-Communion . Nay , our improvement in holiness is more to be ascrib'd to the operations of the Spirit , than to the External Administrations ; and therefore , (d) since God Promises his Spirit to Believers only as they are Members of of his Church , and no otherwise than by the use and Ministry of his Word and Sacraments ; since his ordinary method of saving Men is by adding them to the Church ; since Chri●● suffer'd for us as incorporated into a Church , and the operations of the Spirit are confin'd to the Church ; we see the necessity of holding actual communion with the Church in order to sanctification and sa●vation . But it may ●e said , that those who have only the Form and not the power of Godliness , are guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ , and eat and drink their own damnation , when they receive the Sacrament , 1 Cor. 11.27 , 29. and such men cannot have a right to that , in doing which they sin so heinous●y . Now to this I answer , 1. that in a strict sense the very best men are unworthy receivers ; but , 2. those Members , that we have asserted to have a right to the External privileges of Christ's Church , are not guilty of that unworthiness which the Apostle speaks of . For we do not plead for the right of such open and scandalous sinners , whom St. Paul charges with Schism and Divisions , pride and contempt of their Brethren , sensuality and drunkenness . Such swine as these ought not indeed to come to the Holy Table of our Lord , because they have forfeited their right to it , and ought by the censures of the Church to be excluded . If it be said , that those receivers , who are destitute of saving grace , tho' they are free from scandalous sins , are yet in an unconve●ted condition ; and that this Sacrament is not a converting , but confirming Ordinance ; I answer , that taking conversion for turning Men to the profession of Christianity , ' t●s true that none but converted or Baptiz'd Persons must receive the Sacrament : but if we take conversion for turning those who are already Baptiz'd , to a serious practice of holiness , then this is a converting ordinance . For what more powerful motives to holiness can be found , than what the Sacrament represents to us ; wherein the great love of God in Christ , and our Saviour's sufferings , and God's hatred of sin , and the dismal consequences of it are so lively set forth ? Thirdly I proceed to shew , that some corrupt Members remaining in the Church is no just cause of Separation from her . And , 1. From the Example of the Jews . What sins cou'd be greater than those of Eli's Sons , who arriv'd to such impudence in sinning , that they lay with the Women before the door of the Tabernacle ? Yet did not Elkanah and Hannah refrain to come up to Shilo , and to join with them in public worship . Nay , they are said to transgress who refus'd to come , tho' they refus'd out of abhorrence of the Wickedness of those Men , 1 Sam. 2.17 , 24. In Ahab's time , when almost all Israel were Idolaters , and halted betwixt God and Baal ; yet then did the Prophet Elijah Summon all Israel to appear on Mount Carmel , and hold a Religious Communion with them in Preaching and Praying , and offering a miraculous Sacrifice . Neither did the Seven Thousand that had kept themselves upright , and not bow'd their Knee to Baal , absent themselves because of the Idolatry of the rest ; but they all came and join'd in that public Worship perform'd by the Prophet , 1 Kings 18.39 . and 19.18 . In the Old Testament , when both Prince and Priests and People were very much deprav'd and debauch'd in their Manners , we do not find that the Prophets at any time exhorted the faithful and sincere to separate ; or that they themselves set up any separate Meetings , but continu'd in Communion with the Church , Preaching to them and exhorting them to Repentance . 2. From the Example of Christians . Many Members of the Churches of Corinth and Galatia , and the 7 Churches in Asia , were grown very scandalous ; yet we do not read that good Men Separated from the Church , or that the Apostles commanded them so to do . 3. From our Saviour's own Example , who did not separate from the Jewish Church , tho' the Scribes and Pharisees , who rul'd in Ecclesiastical Matters at that time , had perverted the Law , corrupted the Worship of God , were blind guides and hypocrites , devoured widows houses , and had only a form of Godliness , Matth. 15.6 , 7 , 8. How careful was he , both by his Example and Precept , to forbid and discountenance a separation upon that account ? They sit in Moses 's Seat , saies he ; all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and do , Matth. 23.2 , 3. 4. From the Apostle's express command to hold Communion with the Church of Corinth , notwithstanding the many and great immoralities that were amongst the Members of it . (e) There were Schisms and Contentions amongst them , strife and envyings , fornication and incest , eating at the Idols Table , and coming not so soberly as became them to the Table of our Lord ; yet do's the Apostle not only not command them to separate , but approve their meeting together , and exhort them to continue it . But (f) let a Man examine himself , and so let him eat of that Bread , and drink of that Cup. In these words the Apostle plainly solves the Case I am discoursing on , and shews what private Christians , in whose power it is not judicially to correct Vice , are to do , when they see so many vicious Members intruding to the blessed Sacrament ; viz. not to abstain from it , but by preparation and examination of themselves to take care that they be not of their number . If to separate had been the way , the Apostle wou'd then have manag'd his Discourse after this manner ; There are many Schisms and strises in the Church , there is an incestuous Person not cast out , many proud contemners of their Brethren , Men of strange Opinions , of untam'd Appetites , and unbridl'd Passions , and therefore I advise you not to come amongst them , nor to partake of the Holy Sacrament with them , lest you be infected with their Sores , and partake of their Judgments . But by advising Men to examine themselves , and then to come , he plainly intimates , that 't was their Duty to continue in the Communion of the Church notwithstanding these ; as if he had said , I do not mention the foul Enormities of some that come to this holy Table , to discourage you from coming , lest you shou'd be polluted by their sins : but to excite you to a due care and examination of your selves , that you be not polluted by any sinful Acts and Compliances of your own ; and then there 's no danger of being defil'd by theirs . 5. From the Nature of Church-Communion . I have already prov'd in the First Chapter , that every act of Church-Communion is an act of Communion with the whole Christian Church , and and all the Members of it , whether present or absent : and therefore those , who separate from a National Church for the sake of corrupt Professours , are Schismatics in doing so ; and all their Prayers and Sacraments are not acts of Communion , but a Schismatical Combination . Because , tho' they cou'd form a Society as pure and holy as they desire , yet they confine their Communion to their own select company , and exclude the whole body of Christians , all the World over , out of it . Their Communion is no larger , than their gather'd Church ; for if it be , then they must still Communicate with those Churches , which have corrupt Members , as all visible Churches on earth have . 'T is true , good Men must frequently exhort and advise corrupt and scandalous Members ; they must reprove them with prudence , affection and calmness ; they must bewail their sins and pray to God for their Reformation ; they must as much , and as conveniently as may be , avoid their company , especially all familiarity with them ; and if repeated admonitions , either private or before one or two more , will not do ; then they must tell the Church , that by it 's more public reproofs the scandalous Members may be reclaim'd , or by it's just censures cut off from the Communion . These things the Holy Scriptures command us to do , and the Primitive Christians practis'd accordingly . But if after all the endeavours of private Christians , some scandalous Members , thro' the defect of discipline , shou'd remain in the Church ; they cannot injure those Persons that are no way accessary to their sin . For no sin pollutes a Man , but that which is chosen by him . Noah and Lot were good , even amongst the wicked ; nor did Judas defile our Saviour and his Apostles at the passover . The good and bad Communicate together ( not in sin , but ) in their common duty . To Communicate in a sin , is sin : but to Communicate with a sinner , in that which is not sinful , cannot be a sin . 'T is true , the Apostle saies , 1 Cor. 5.6 . A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump ; but this is a Proverbial speech , and shews only that sin , like leaven , is of a very spreading nature . The People are as a lump , and a wicked Person is as leaven amongst them : but , tho' the leaven is apt to convey it self thro' the whole lump , yet only those parts are actually leaven'd with it , that take the leaven ; and so , tho' the sinner by his bad example is apt to infect others , yet those only are actually infected , who Communicate with him in sin . Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees , saies our Saviour ; he do's not advise his Disciples to leave their Assemblies , but to beware that they take no leaven of them . The incestuous Person was not cast out of the Church of Corinth ; and yet the Apostle saies , at least of some of them , ye are unleavened , 1 Cor. 5.7 . And why may not the joint Prayers of the Church , and the examples of good Men , be as sovereign an antidote against the infection ; as the bare company of wicked Men is of power to convey it ? Especially considering that the sins of the wicked shall never be imputed to the righteous : but the Prayers of the righteous have obtain'd pardon for the wicked . If it be said , that the pollutions of sin were typify'd by the legal uncleanesses , and that every thing that the unclean Person touch'd , was made unclean ; I answer , that those legal pollutions did not defile the whole Communion , but only those whom the unclean Person touch'd . For , 1. There was no Sacrifice appointed for any such pollution , as came upon all for the sin of some few . 2. Tho' the Prophets reprov'd the Priests for not separating the clean from the unclean , Ezek. 22.26 . yet they never taught , that the whole Communion was polluted , because the unclean came into the Congregation thro' the neglect of the Priests duty . As those that touch'd the unclean Person , were unclean : so those that have Fellowship with the wicked in their sins , are polluted . 3. When 't is said , that the unclean Person , that did not purify himself , defil'd the Tabernacle and polluted the sanctuary ; the meaning is , that he did so to himself , but not to others ; so does a wicked Man the Ordinances of God , in respect of himself , but not of others . The Prayers of the wicked , tho' join'd with those of the Church , are an abomination unto God ; whilst at the same time the Prayers of good Men go up as a sweet-smelling Savour , and are accepted by him . The Person that comes unworthily to the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper , eats and drinks Judgment to himself : but that hinders not , but that those who at the same time come better prepar'd , may do it to their own Eternal Comfort and Salvation . To the pure all things are pure : but to them that are defil'd and unbelieving , is nothing pure ; but even their Mind and Conscience is defil'd , Tit. 1.15 . I grant indeed , that the Apostle saies , 2 Cor. 6.17 . Wherefore come out from among them , and be ye separate , saith the Lord , and touch not the unclean thing : but this makes nothing against my Assertion , if we consider , 1. the occasion of this Exhortation . For the Christian Corinthians liv'd in the midst of Heathens , by whom they were often invited to their Idol-Feasts , at which some of them did not scruple to eat things Sacrificed to Idols : but the Apostle persuades them not to go , not only upon the account of scandal to their weak Brethren , whose ignorance might suffer them to be drawn by their Example to go and eat at them , even in honour to the Idol ; but also , because 't was plain Idolatry so to do . For as we receive the Lord's Supper in honour of Christ : so they must be thought to eat in honour to the Idol ; because the Sacrifice was offer'd to the Idol . But blessed be God , we live in a Christian Country , wherein there are no Idol-Feasts at all . 2. That the Persons , from whom they were to separate , were no better than Vnbelievers and Idolaters . But now , because Christians by the Apostle's command were to separate from the Assemblies of Heathen Idolaters , do's it therefore follow that they must separate from the Assemblies of Christians , because some , who while they profess Christ , do not live like Christians , are present at them ? Is there no difference between a Pagan or an Infidel , that denies Christ and worships Devils ; and an immoral Christian , who outwardly owns Christ and worships the true God ? 3. That the unclean thing they were not to touch , was the abominable practices us'd by the Heathens in the Worship of their Gods. But now , because Christians are not to Communicate with Heathens in their filthy Mysteries , nor to partake with any sort of wicked Men in any Action that 's Immoral ; do's it therefore follow , that they must not do their Duty , because sometimes it cannot be done but in their Company ? Must they abstain from the public Worship of God and the Lord's Table , to which they are commanded ; because Evil Men , who , till they repent , have nothing to do there , rudely intrude themselves ? As for St. John's words , Revel . 18.4 . Come out of her , my People , that ye be not partakers of her sins , and that ye receive not of her plagues ; they are a command to all Christians to forsake the Communion of Idolaters ; and according to most Interpreters , those in particular of the Church of Rome : but the Text do's not afford the Dissenters the least Plea to separate from us , who are Reform'd from Popery , and retain nothing of it , but what it retains of the Gospel and the Primitive Church . I have nothing now to add , but that the eminent Dissenters do utterly (g) disclaim this Plea of Mixt-Communion . Mr. Vines saies it is Donastical ; and others , as Mr. Brinsly , and Mr. Jenkin , that it 's the common Plea or Pretence , which for the most part hath been taken up by all Schismatics , in defence of their Separation from the Church ; and therefore that it is necessary the People should be untaught it , as Mr. Baxter advises . And as they do disclaim it , so they declare that those who separate upon this account , do it very unjustly ; that the Scandals of Professors are ground of mourning , but not of Separation ; that there may be a sufficient cause to cast out obstinate sinners , and yet not sufficient cause for one to leave the Church , tho' such be not cast out ; that the suffering of profane and scandalous Livers to continue in the Church , and partake in the Sacrament , is doubtless a great sin ; yet the Godly are not presently to separate from it . There is , saies Mr. Burroughs , an errour on both sides ; either those that think it concerns them not at all with whom they come to the Sacrament , or those that if they do what they can to keep the Scandalous away , and yet they shou'd be suffer'd to come , think that they themselves may not come to partake of it . This both the Presbyterians and Independents agree in , and endeavour (h) to prove by several Arguments . Nay , they answer an Objection drawn from , 1 Cor. 5.11 . If any Man that is called a Brother , be a Fornicator , &c. with such an one no not to eat ; and tell us , First , That if it be meant of excluding such an one from Church-Communion , it must be done by the Church , and not by a private Person . But you are not commanded to separate from the Church , if they exclude him not . So Mr. Baxter , &c. Secondly , That it concerns not Religious , but Civil Communion ; and that not all Civil Society or Commerce , but Familiar also . For which they produce several Reasons ; 1. They argue from the Notion of eating Bread , which is a Token of Love and Friendship in the phrase of Scripture ; not to partake of , or to be shut from the Table , is a sign of Familiarity broken off . So Mr. Ball , &c. 2. The eating which is here forbidden , is allow'd to be with the Heathen : but it 's the civil eating which is only allow'd to be with an Heathen ; therefore it 's the civil eating which is forbidden to be with a Brother . So Mr. Jenkin , &c. (i) And as for other Objections , Mr. Baxter's answer is sufficient ; If you mark all the Texts in the Gospel , you shall find that all the Separation which is commanded in such cases ( besides our Separation from the Infidel and Idolatrous World , or Antichristian and Heretical Confederacies , and No-Churches ) is but one of these two sorts ; 1. Either that the Church cast out the impenitent by the Power of the Keys ; or , 2. That private Men avoid all private Familiarity with them ; but that the private Members shou'd separate from the Church , because such Persons are not cast out of it , shew me one Text to prove it if you can . To conclude , this objection of Mixt-Communion proves nothing but a supercilious Arrogance , and a great want of Charity in those that make it . What care they may take in their new way of Discipline , I cannot tell : but our Church has given the Minister a power of rejecting scandalous Sinners , (k) and this is as much as can be done ; for the close Hypocrite will escape the narrowest search . Every Man is charg'd to examine himself , and not another ; and 't wou'd be well , if all wou'd do so . For he that enquires seriously into his own sins , will find great cause to be humble and penitent : but he that is curious to pry into the miscarriages of others , will be apt to be vain , proud , self-conceited , and censorious ; which will make him as unfit for the Table of the Lord , as any of those Faults which he so scornfully condemns in his Neighbours , that he esteems himself and the Ordinances of God polluted by their Company . CHAP. X. The Pretences of Purer Ordinances , and Better Edification among the Dissenters , Answer'd . WELL ; but tho' our Communion be not sinful , yet they can find Purer Ordinances and Better Edification amongst the Dissenters ; and therefore they may lawfully separate from the Church of England . But First , what Purer Ordinances wou'd Men have than those of our Saviour's own Institution , without any corrupt and sinful mixtures to spoil their Vertue and Efficacy ? The Purity of Divine Administrations must consist in their agreement with the Institution , that there is not any such defect or addition as alters their nature and destroys their Vertue : but he who thinks that the Sacraments lose their Efficacy , unless they be administred in that way which he likes best , is guilty of gross Superstition ; and attributes the Vertue of Sacraments to the manner of their administration , not to their Divine Institution . Secondly , the pretence of better Edification will by no means justify separation . For this Edification must be understood , either of the whole Church , or of particular Christians . Now Edification is building up , and is apply'd to the whole Church , consider'd as God's House and Temple . This is the true Scripture Notion of it , as appears by many Texts , 1 Cor. 3.9 , 10. and 8.1 . and 14.5 , 12. Eph. 2.21 . and 4.12 , 13 , 15 , 16. Matth. 21.42 . Acts 4.11 . 2 Cor. 10.8 , 12 , 19. and 13.10 . Now it 's an odd way of building up the Temple of God by dividing and separating the parts of it from each other . As for the Edification of particular Persons , which is also spoken of in Scripture , 1 Thess . 5.11 . it is therefore call'd Edification , because it is an improvement of a Man's Spiritual Condition ; and it is wrought in the Unity of the Church , and makes particular Christians one Spiritual House and Temple , by a firm close Union and Communion of all the parts of the Church ; so that every Christian is Edify'd , as he grows up in all Christian Graces and Vertues in the Unity of the Church . And indeed , if our Growth in Grace be more owing to the assistance of God's Spirit , than to the external administrations , as St. Paul tells us , 1 Cor. 3.6 , 7. and if the Spirit confines his influences to the Unity of the Church , there being but one Body and one Spirit , Eph. 4.4 . then it do's not seem a very likely way for Edification , to cut our selves off from the Unity of Christ's Body . St. Jude , v. 19. seems to tell us , that true Edification was a stranger to those who separated from the common building : but those who kept to the Communion of the Church , built up themselves in their most Holy Faith , and Pray'd in the Holy Ghost ; and a Man may with greater assurance expect the Blessing of God , if he continue in the Church , than if he separate . But I shall examine this pretence at large ; and shew , that it is unlawful for any particular Christian to separate from the Church of England , because he thinks he can Edify better amongst the Dissenters . This I shall prove by Four Arguments . 1. Because better Edification cannot be had in separate Meetings , than in our Churches ; as will appear , if we consider , First , how fit our constitution is to Edify Mens Souls ; Secondly , that this constitution is well manag'd for Edification . First then , That our constitution is fit to Edify Souls , will appear , if we consider Four things . 1. Our Creeds contain all Fundamental Articles of Faith , that are necessary to Salvation ; but we have no nice and obscure matters in them . We believe all that the early Christians in the first Three Hundred years thought needful ; that is , all that Christ and his Apostles taught : and this Faith will sufficiently and effectually Edify the Souls of Men. 2. The necessity the Church laies upon a good Life and Works . The Articles of her Creed , when firmly believ'd , do plainly tend to make Men good . She declares , that without preparatory Vertues the most zealous devotion is not pleasing to God ; and that it is but show , unless obedience follow . Such a Faith she laies down as Fundamental to Salvation , as produces excellent Vertues ; and determines , that without Faith and Good Works no Man shall see God. Her Festivals commemorate the Vertues and recommend the Examples of Excellent Men. Her Ceremonies are decent ; her Prayers are for Holiness ; her Discipline is to force , and her Homilies to persuade Men to that Piety , which her whole constitution aims at . She tells Sinners plainly , that unless they repent , they must perish ; and saies that plain Vertues are the Ornament and Soul of our Faith. And certainly the Civil Interest of a Nation is Edify'd by such a Church , as teaches Men to perform the duties of their several relations so exactly . 3. She is fitly constituted to excite true Devotion ; because she gives us true Notions of God and our selves , by describing his attributes and our wants . Her Prayers are grave and of a due length ; and she has proper Prayers for most particular occasions . She has Offices to quicken our affections and confirm our obedience . The Offices of the Lord's Supper , Baptism and Burial , are extremely good in their kind . Bring but an honest mind and good affections to all these parts of Devotion , and they will make the Church a Choire of Angels . 4. Her Order and Discipline are such , that she makes Religion neither slovenly , nor too gay . Wise and good Men have judg'd all her Ceremonies to be decent and useful ; and they are of great Antiquity , and fit to make our Services comely . And truly , whilst we have Bodies , these outward helps are very convenient , if not necessary . Her Goverment is so well temper'd , that her Members may not be dissolute , nor her Rulers insolent . And if all Vices are not chastiz'd , the reason is , because unnecessary divisions have stopp'd her Discipline upon offenders . Her Goverment is Apostolical , Primitive and Universal . None of her parts or Offices give just cause for any to revolt from her ; but considering all things , she is the best constituted Church in the World. If therefore (a) Edification be going on to perfection , or growing in grace ; if it is doing good to the Souls of Men ; if it be to make plain the great things in Religion to the understandings of Men ; then it is to be found in this Church . Secondly , that our Constitution is well manag'd for Edification , will appear if we consider , 1. That Pastors are not left to their Liberty , but strictly commanded under great temporal Penalties to direct their Flocks , to preserve Faith and a good Conscience with substantial Devotion , which will to the purpose Edify Mens Souls , and effectually save them . 2. That these commands are obey'd by our Pastors . For this we appeal to good and wise Men in our Communion , who have honesty and judgment enough to confess that they have found it true ; and to say that they are prejudiced , and want sincerity and knowledge to pass a judgment , is uncharitable . Our Protestant Neighbours have commended our Goverment , condemn'd the Separation , Magnify'd our Pastors , and wish'd they were under such a Discipline , and Translated many of our Mens Works to Edify their People . Dissenters themselves own our Sermons to be really good . And tho' some few may not be able to answer the true design of Preaching , yet in general Men may Edify very well among us . Nor has there been for these many hundred years a Clergy so Learned , Pious , Prudent and Industrious to Edify Mens Souls , as now is in the English Church . II. Because those who make this pretence , do commonly mistake better Edification . And surely ▪ to desert the plain and great duty of Church-Communion for disputable or mistaken Edification , is to be guilty of the sin of Schism . Now the mistakes of these Men are principally three . 1. In taking nice notions for Edifying truths . He that discourses about Angels , separated Souls , the situation of Paradise and Hell , &c. shall be thought a sounder Divine , than he that teaches the way of Salvation plainly , by Faith and a good Conversation . Such things pass with too many for saving truths ; and many ignorant and corrupt Men , that espouse Parties and Interests , readily embrace them . The Apostle speakes of some that have itching ears , 2 Tim. 4.3 . If the food , tho' wholsom and good , be not to their fancy , they complain of starving . Bring but an honest , sincere and teachable mind , and you may Edify in a worse Church than ours ; but otherwise the best Doctrine will be insipid to you . Place Edification in the substantial things of Religion , in a right Faith and a holy Conversation , which our Church presses upon us under the penalty of eternal damnation ; for these things alone do truly Edify the souls of Men , and to these all Religion tends . The Kingdom of Christ consists in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy-Ghost , Rom. 14.17 . Now such a Religion as this being so strongly enjoin'd and zealously taught in our Church , we need not complain for want of Edification ; and the desire of other nourishment is spiritual pride and wantonness . Wherefore desire the sincere milk of the Word ( the food of your understanding , and not of your fancy ) that you may grow thereby . For if you had but such an increase of grace , as to hear meekly God's Word and to receive it with pure affection , you cou'd not easily fail to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit . Therefore 't is dangerous and sinful to give Men a Liberty to run from any establish'd Church for better Edificaton , which is so often and easily mistaken . And may we not add , that when a quarrel arises from an unjust denial of the Minister's Dues , then he is call'd dull , and a better must be sought elsewhere . Thus one fault helps out another , and defamation must excuse the Schism . 2. In taking the Opinions of parties for essential truths . This those Men do , that are wedded to a Party ; and if we do not explain all things in their way , they cry , we destroy the Gospel truths , and that instead of being Edify'd they are weaken'd in their faith . The early and best Christians thought it sufficient to know Jesus and the Resurrection in their full extent ; and it were well if Men were satisfy'd with this old way ; otherwise they break the Peace of the Church and Obedience to Governours , which are the great things of Religion , upon the score of better Edification . 3. In taking sudden heats and warmth , arising from melting tones and other arts , for Edification ; whereas a bright or a lowring day , or a Dose of Physic can do the same things ; and they have often happen'd in the worst of Men. According as these Heats and Bodily Passions are Stirr'd , so in some Mens Opinion the Ministry is Edifying or Unprofitable . But sound and solid Reasoning is the true way to Edification ; whereas the Silly and Weak , who are most subject to these Heats and Colds , are Inconstant , and turn round in all Religions . Such Persons being all sail , are the more easily tost about with every wind of Doctrine . III. Because the pretence of better Edification will cause endless divisions in the Church . For since every Man must judge , and the Governour must not restrain him , therefore People may run from Teacher to Teacher to find out Better Edification , Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth , 2 Tim. 3.7 . And when once they have torn the Unity of the Church in pieces , then envy , detraction , strife , murmurings , fierceness , and numberless other mischiefs will come in ; and that which divided them from the Church , will crumble them into Endless Parties , to the joy of our Enemies . But all this wou'd be avoided , if Men were sensible of the heinous nature of Schism , which the Apostles and all the ancient Christians have painted forth in the blackest colours . IV. Because this is a discouragement to an honest and truly Christian Ministry . For if the Flock run from a Pastor , that instructs them rightly , upon pretence of better Edification ; will it not cool his zeal , check his labours , and affront his Person and Office ? And this may be done to the best Pastors , as well as to others ; and the most judicious Dissenters have complain'd of it : tho' upon this principle it cannot be remedy'd , because the people must judge for themselves . And ought the Ministers to be scorn'd and discountenanc'd and have their Ministry rendred useless , for the fancies , peevishness and humour of the People ? If it be said , that the Pastor is idle or unsound in Doctrine ; I answer , that our Governours , upon a just and modest complaint will quicken the lazy and negligent , and correct the Heretical Pastor , and restore the Flock to true Edification . I may add , that the eminent Dissenters do declare , that the pretence of Better Edification is not a sufficient excuse for Separation , as those who have leisure may find in these Books of theirs which I have quoted (b) at the bottom . But after all that has been said , I know some Persons will object , that our Ministers are unedifying Preachers , for they cannot profit by their Sermons . Therefore I shall endeavour to give these Men full satisfaction ; and I doubt not to demonstrate , that they may profit by our Sermons , if it be not their own fault . We are all agreed , that the Scriptures contain all things necessary to Salvation ; and therefore when they are rightly open'd and duly apply'd in a Sermon , so that the hearers improve in Christian Knowledge , or in Faith , or in well-doing , then they profit by that Sermon . Now if any Man do not improve in these by the help of our Sermons , the fault must be , either in the Matter of the Sermon , or in the manner of it . And as for the former of these , I can scarce think , that any Dissenter will except against our Sermons upon that account ; they being taken out of the Scriptures , which were never better open'd and apply'd , than in our Sermons . I am sure , all heavenly truths are faithfully declar'd in them . Matters of Controversy are rarely handled in our Pulpits ; for the drift of our Preachers is to make the People good . They resolve Cases of Conscience , and press the motives to believe , and the arguments to convince Men of their duty . They condemn all Vices , recommend all Vertues , and apply the Promises and Threatnings of the Gospel . And if Men cannot profit where such things are constantly well managed ; I am sure the fault do's not lie in the Matter of the Sermons , but somewhere else . If some say , that the Matter is good , but the manner is such , that they cannot reap the like benefit by them , as by the Non-Conformists Preaching ; I answer , that the fault must then lie , either in the Composition or the Delivery . First , as to the Composition , I am confident , that never did Men more endeavour after clear method and plain Language , than our Preachers now do . If it be objected , that they do not keep the old method of Doctrine , Reason and Vse ; I answer , that they alwaies chuse it , when it is natural : but the ancient Doctors never observ'd any constant Rule ; and yet the People profited much more , than they do now . Secondly , as to the Delivery , if it be objected that our Preachers are not vehement enough ; I answer , that they are , when the Matter requires it ; but vehemence loses it's effect , if it be spent upon all things alike . Vehemence do's not consist in the strength of voice , nor yet in that heat of temper , which makes some Men speak earnestly , when they are not so deeply affected , as some of cooler tempers are . Sedate Men may instruct and move by the help of serious consideration ; and those affections that are rais'd without it , are little worth . But neither all your Men , nor all ours , have the same voice or the same temper ; and therefore this can be no more hindrance to Edification among us , than among you . If reading of Sermons be objected , I answer , that some of our Preachers use no notes in the Pulpit , others read but little ; and if a Man will but turn his head another way , and not look upon the Preacher , a Sermon that is read altogether , will sound as well , as if it were pronounced without book . If reading make a thing unprofitable ; the Bible , when 't is read , must be unprofitable , and it must be got without book to make it Edifying . Besides , some famous Preachers of your own read every word ; and therefore you may profit by ours as well as by them . But I fear , that when Men complain they cannot profit by our Sermons , they mean nothing , but that our Preachers do not move their affections , as the Non-Conformists do . To this I cou'd say much , but it will be sufficient to mention only three things . 1. Your Men and ours have several Talents , some for informing the judgment , others for moving the affections , and others for both . All your Men do not move you alike ; and yet you make such account of all , that you think it a very disorderly thing for People to run from their own to another Minister ( tho' of the same way ) merely to have the affections more mov'd . Because , 2. It is far from profiting by Sermons , to be tickl'd for a while and never to grow the better for them . 3. The chief thing is this , that affections rais'd merely by the earnestness of the Preacher , are nothing comparable to those , which we raise by consideration and reflection upon what we have heard . And these affections our Sermons will certainly raise , if you will take a little pains with your selves , and lay them close to your Consciences . Now since our Sermons cannot be blam'd ; I pray , consider where the fault must lie , if you cannot profit by them . I beseech you , in the fear of God , by whose Word we must one day be all judg'd , to consider impartially , and ask your Consciences such Questions as these . 1. Had you not some prejudice against the Minister you came to hear , either for his Conformity , or his strictness in it , and the like ? If you had ; such prejudices bar the heart so strongly against the most excellent instructions , that a Man will not profit by them . 2. Did you not come to Church but once or twice , and then conclude too hastily , that there was no good to be gotten there ? and were you not willing to have this excuse for absenting your self wholly from it ? Had you attended much , perhaps you had never left it . Try again for some time ; and when you are acquainted with your Minister's method and stile and way of reasoning , his Sermons may be clear , easy and awakening to you . The Scriptures themselves are obscure to the best of us , till we are acquainted with them ; and if they had been treated , as our Sermons are , ( I mean , rejected because they are not presently understood ) they had been thrown away long since as unprofitable . 3. Did you not leave the Church , because , when you came , the Minister happen'd to Treat of a Subject cross to your opinion ? Hasty persons fling away from those that contradict them ; but had you had patience , you might have been profited and convinced by such Discourses . 4. Was not the Minister , when you chanc'd to go to Church , treating of some distastful Subject , which you love not to hear of ? Was it not Schism , or Disobedience to Governours ? It is certain there are such sins , which are very dangerous , and he ought to Treat of them some time or other ; and if he Preach of Vnity and Obedience , may not you profit by it ? I doubt you have heard some of your own Ministers speak harder words of Conformity and Conformists , than you wou'd have had them , and you fancy you can profit even by those Sermons ; why then shou'd you leave our Ministers , because they press some duties more strictly than you like ? Do not many of your own way complain of their unprofitableness under your own Ministers , which arises perhaps from a natural dulness ? and will not prejudice , passion , and disaffection to the way of worship , or to any Christian Doctrine , hinder profiting much more than natural indisposition ? So that if you complain of deadness and unprofitableness under our Ministry , it is no more than many do under your own . You shou'd not rashly conclude our Ministry to be Unedifying , but rather suspect your selves to be guilty . Those also who fancy , that tho' they can profit something by our Ministry , yet they can profit more by others , ought to consider the same things , and ask their own consciences the same questions . Do's not this conceit arise from the foremention'd causes ? Are you not more earnestly press'd in our Congregations to be throughly good , than in those where you think you profit more ? This I must say , that if you do not grow more holy in all respects , you do but deceive your selves with an opinion of profiting more by the Non-Conforming Ministry than by ours . If you wou'd attend at our Churches , you need not go any whither else for true Edification . There is no end of seeking better entertainment of the fancy ; and the old Non-Conformists thought this a dangerous principle , that Men must go where they can profit most . And because the opinion of a famous Man of your own may prevail with you more than ours , I 'le tell you what Mr. Hildersham saies of Mens leaving their own Pastors to hear others , Lect. 58. upon John 4. First he saies , It is the ordinance of God that every Pastor shou'd have his own Flock to attend , and every one of God's People shou'd have a Pastor of his own to depend upon . Now they who dwell next together , shou'd be of the same Congregation . And if thy own Pastor be a Man whose gift is approv'd by God's Church , and one who is conscionable in his place , and of unblamable life ; tho' his gifts be far inferiour to some others , yet take heed thou leave him not at any time with contempt of his Ministry , saying , I cannot profit by him . For a Man may be a true Minister , tho' his gifts be far inferiour to many others . And you are bound to Love him and Reverence him , and thank God for him . And doubtless thou mayest profit by him , if the fault be not in thy self . Nay , there is never a Minister , that is of the most excellent gifts ( if he have a godly heart , ) but he can truly say , he never heard any faithful Minister in his life , that was so mean , but he cou'd discern some gift in him , that was wanting in himself , and cou'd profit by him . The fruit and profit that is to be receiv'd from the Ministry , depends not only , nor chiefly , upon the gifts of the Man that Preacheth , but upon the blessing that God is pleas'd to give unto his own ordinance . And God doth oft give a greater blessing to weaker , than to stronger means . And consider , the fault may be rather in thy self than in thy Teacher , that thou canst not profit . And indeed how is it possible thou shoud'st profit by his Ministry , if thou come with prejudice , without any Reverence , and delight unto it ? Some follow another pastor because of his human gifts , some only for varieties sake ; some because they shew more Zeal in their voice and gesture , and phrase of speech , and manner of delivery ; tho' ( haply ) the Doctrine it self be nothing so wholsom , as the Doctrine of their own Pastor is . But he only makes right use of the benefit of hearing such as have more excellent gifts than his own Pastor , as learns thereby to like his own Pastor the better , and to profit more by him ; As they use Physic well , whose appetite is amended , and who are by it made able to relish and like their ordinary food the better . These are his words who was of such note heretofore among Non-Conformists ; and how come you to differ so much from the best of your own way in former daies ? The same Authour speaking of the partial estimation of Ministers , saies , this factious disposition in the hearers of God's Word hath in all Ages been the cause of much confusion in the Church of God , and greatly hindred the fruit of the Gospel of Christ , and made them uncapable of profit by the word . Lect. 66. O that you wou'd ponder such profitable instructions ! which were said on purpose to check that , which is since grown the prevailing humour . Yes , will some say , we might be persuaded to hear your Preachers constantly , but you can never justify the compelling us to it . But , saies Mr. Hildersham , Lect. 52. it is certain , that where there is a good Ministry establish'd , the Magistrate may and ought to compell all his Subjects to come and hear ; notwithstanding all pretence of their Conscience to the contrary . In short , a Sermon is then profitable , when it strengthens faith and promotes holiness ; but the best Sermon in the world , tho' indited by the Spirit of God , will not profit , unless Men will attend without prejudice , passion , partiality , conceit and spiritual pride ; and unless they will impartially consider those things , which are contrary to their present sence ; for want of which , multitudes did not profit by our Saviour's Sermons , but were rather more exasperated by them . Consider , I beseech you , whether this be not your case ; and submit unto what shall appear to be reason , after you have weigh'd the matter impartially . This I hope will bring you to Church ; where if you do not presently find such profit , as is promis'd , you may conclude in Mr. Hildersham's words ; First , either you have not sought it aright , not with earnestness , or not with a good heart : Or Secondly , if you have , and do not find it at first ; yet you shall hereafter , if you seek it here with an honest heart . You wou'd profit more by Sermons , if you wou'd observe some Rules deliver'd by the same Authour , Lect. 26. which now , alas ! are generally neglected . One is , that at your coming into the Congregation , and during the whole time of your abode there , you wou'd behave your selves reverently . For an awful sence of God's presence wou'd be an excellent preparation to receive benefit by his Service . Another Rule is , That we must all come to the beginning of God's public Worship , and tarry till all be done . Yea , it is the duty of God's People , saith he , to be in God's House before the beginning ; for it becomes them to wait for the Minister of God , and not to let him wait for them . For he shews , that Men may profit by all parts of the Service ; for ( saies he ) as he that is away from any part of the Sermon , shall profit the less by that which he doth hear : so he ' that is away from any part of the Divine Service , gets the less good by that at which he is present . Nay , he saies , Lect. 28. tho' we cou'd receive no profit by the exercises us'd in our Assemblies , yet we must be present at them all , to do our homage unto God ; and shew the Reverent Respect we have to his Ordinances . A Third Rule is , that we ought to join with the Congregation in all the parts of God's Worship . For it is comely , that all things in God's Service shou'd be done in good order , as if the whole Congregation were but one Man. And in several places he reproves with a great deal of zeal , Men's great carelesness in this . A Fourth Rule is , that we ought to teach our Children and Servants to shew Reverence to the Sanctuary and public Worship of God. For God hates profaness even in Children ; and contempt done by any may bring God's Curse upon all . And certainly , saies he , among other causes of the Plague , and other Judgments of God upon the Land , this is not the least , that God's public Worship is perform'd among us with so little Reverence and Devotion as it is . But I will transcribe no more ; only I shall earnestly desire two things . First , that you wou'd consider seriously , how you wou'd have lik'd what I have transcrib'd from Mr. Hildersham , if one of our Men had Preach'd it ; especially if he added , that for the Reverence of God's public Worship , care shou'd be taken , that the place where the Congregation Assembleth , may be decent and comely ; and that 't is a foul sin and contempt of God's house , to be careless about the Neatness of it . If you wou'd have thought it unprofitable ; then consider , why such things as please out of one Man's mouth , shou'd displease out of another's . Is it not manifest , that partiality makes you not profit by our Sermons ? Or if you cou'd not like such Discourses , either from Non-Conformists , or our Ministers ; then are you not mistaken about profiting by Sermons , when you think those discourses unprofitable , which sober Men of all sides have thought necessary ? For Mr. Hildersham saies , Prophaness and Atheism hath made us too void of all care in beautifying the house of God. Secondly , If you think such a Sermon profitable , consider whether you have learnt so much out of Scripture , as to study and observe those Rules . Do you , for instance , pay Reverence to God's house , and come at the beginning of Service , and stand up and kneel with the Congregation , & c ? If you do not , then the fault is not in our Sermons , that you do not profit ; for you do not profit by the Scriptures themselves , which plainly teach these things . To conclude , if we have all things necessary to the building us up in our most Holy Faith , in the Communion of the Church ; it will be but a poor excuse for our Dividing from it , that we hoped to be better Edify'd : when we had no encouragement at all to hope it , as long as we continu'd in the state of Separation upon this Pretence . For it is the Blessing of God alone , and not any Man's Skill in dispensing them , that can make the word and ordinances any way beneficial to us . With the help of his grace , those means of Instruction which we undervalue most , may be profitable to our Salvation . Without it our Ears may be tickled , and our Fancies pleasantly entertain'd for the time ; but we cannot be truly Edify'd by the most fluent and popular Tongue , or the most melting and pathetical Expressions in the World. CHAP. XI . The pretence of it's being against one's Conscience to join with the Church of England , Answer'd . HAving Answer'd the most considerable Objections against our Communion , I am now to deal with such Persons as separate from us , tho' they have nothing to object against us ; such as pretend that they are not satisfy'd in our way , that 't is against their Conscience to join with us , or that they doubt of the lawfulness of our Communion , or at least they scruple it . But I shall shew , that these excuses are utterly insignificant ; and that they cannot escape the wrath of God , who commit a sin , and think to cover it by pretending Conscience for it . But before I enter upon these Matters , I shall lay down the Principles I mean to proceed upon , by treating distinctly on these Five Heads . 1. Of the Nature of Conscience . 2. Of the Rule of Conscience . 3. Of the Power of Human Laws to oblige the Conscience . And particularly , 4. In the instances of Church-Communion . 5. Of the Authority of Conscience ; or how far a Man is obliged to be guided by it in his actions . I. Then , to find out the Nature of Conscience , let us consider what every Man doth really mean by that word , when he has occasion to use it . Now as to this , I observe , First , that a Man never speaks of his Conscience , but with respect to his own actions . We do not , for instance , make it a point of Conscience , whether a thing be true or false , or whether an accident be prosperous or unfortunate , or whether another Man has done well or ill . These things indeed may please or trouble us ; but our Conscience is affected only with that , which is willingly done or left undone by us , or which we may do , or may forbear . Secondly , We never use the Word Conscience about our actions , but only so far as those actions are to be directed by some Law or Rule ; with which if they agree , they are good , and if they disagree , they are evil . Thirdly , Our actions , as we concern our Conscience in them , are either already done , or not already done . But whether they are done or not done , whether past or future , they are either commanded by God , and so they are Duties ; or forbidden by God , and so they are Sins ; or neither commanded nor forbidden , and so they are indifferent actions . Our actions , I say , do not touch our Conscience , but as they fall under these considerations ; and in all these respects we mean the same thing by Conscience . For , First , If the action be not already done , we think it either commanded by God , and say , we are bound in Conscience , or think it our duty to do it ; or forbidden by God , and say , it is against our Conscience , or we think it a sin to do it ; or else we think it is indifferent , and say , we may do it with a safe Conscience , that is , we believe the action may be done without transgressing any Law of God. This is undeniably every Man's meaning , when he talks of Conscience as to actions , that are not yet done . Secondly , If we speak of our actions , that are done and past , saying , my Conscience bears me witness , or I am satisfy'd or troubled in Conscience for doing , what I have done ; we mean nothing more than this , that reflecting upon our own actions , we find , that we have either done , as we are convinc'd we ought to do , and this is a satisfaction to us ; or not done , as we ought to do , and the remembrance of this troubles us . But in all these Cases we mean the same thing by Conscience , to wit , our Judgment and Persuasion concerning what we ought to do , or ought not to do . Only in the first sort , Conscience is consider'd as the guide of actions to be done ; and in the second sort , as the witness of those that are already done : but in both sorts Conscience is the same thing , to wit , the Judgment of a Man's mind concerning the Morality of his Actions . This is the true Notion of Conscience in general ; but if we put Epithets to it , and talk of a good or evil Conscience , a tender Conscience , or the like , then it includes more than I am now concern'd to give an account of . II. I proceed to the Rule of Conscience . It appears by what I have said , that Conscience must alwaies have a Rule to follow . For , since Conscience is a Man's judgment about actions as good , or bad , or indifferent ; it is certain , a Man must have some measure , by applying which , he may judge of what sort the action is . This Measure is the Rule of Conscience , and Conscience is no farther safe , than as it follows that Rule . Now this Measure or Rule of Conscience can be nothing else but the Law of God ; because nothing can be a Duty , or Sin , but what is commanded or forbidden by God's Law ; and that thing only is indifferent , which his Law neither commands nor forbids . Now by the Law of God , which is the Rule of Conscience , I mean God's Will for the Goverment of Men's actions ; whether declar'd by Nature , or Revelation . By the Law of Nature I mean those Principles of Good and Evil , just and unjust , which God has written in our minds , and which every Man is naturally convinced of . Some things are eternally Good , as to Worship God , &c. and we know them to be our Duty ; others are eternally Evil , and we know them to be Sins , by the light of Reason ; and the Apostle saies , the Gentiles had this Law written in their hearts . But Christians have the Law of Revelation too contain'd in the Scriptures ; by which God do's not make void the Law of Nature , but declare it's Precepts more certainly and accurately , with greater strength , and greater rewards and punishments , than before . By this also he has perfected the Law of Nature , and obliged us to higher instances of Vertue , and added some positive Laws ; as for instance , to believe in Christ , to pray to God in Christ's Name , to be Baptiz'd and partake of the Lord's Supper . Thus then the Natural and Reveal'd Law of God is the great Rule of Conscience . Only we must remember , that by the Law of Nature is to be understood , not only the chief and general heads of it , but also the necessary deductions from these heads ; and by the Reveal'd Law is to be understood , not only express Commands and Prohibitions , but also the necessary consequences of those commands and prohibitions . So that whatever is by direct inference or parity of reason commanded or forbidden , is a Duty or a Sin ; tho' it be not commanded or forbidden in the Letter of the Law. And if it be neither commanded nor forbidden by the Letter of the Law , nor yet by inference or parity of reason ; the thing is indifferent , and we may do it , or let it alone , with a safe Conscience . III. In the third place I must consider the power of Human Laws to oblige the Conscience ; for in a secondary sence they are a part of the Rule of Conscience , by vertue of , and in subordination to the Laws of God. This I shall explain in four propositions . First , It is most certain , that God's Law Commands us to obey the Laws of Men. For all Society is founded in this Principal Law of Nature , that we must obey our Governours in all honest and just things . Otherwise no State , City or Family can subsist happily . And 't is most evident , that God Commands us in Scripture to Obey them , that have the Rule over us , and to be Subject not only for Wrath , but also for Conscience sake . So that a Man is bound in duty to obey Human Laws , and consequently they are a part of the Rule of Conscience . Secondly , Human Laws do not bind the Conscience by any Vertue in themselves , but merely by Vertue of God's Law , who has commanded us both by Nature and Scripture , to obey our Superiours . Conscience is our judgment of our actions according to God's Law , and has no Superiour but God alone : but yet we are bound in Conscience to obey Men , because therein we obey God. Thirdly , Human Laws do no farther bind the Conscience , than as they are agreeable to the Laws of God ; so that when Men command any thing sinful , we must not obey . For God has not given any Man power to alter his Laws , or impose any thing inconsistent with them . Fourthly , Tho' Human Laws , generally speaking , bind the Conscience ; yet I do not say , that every Human Law ( tho' consistent with God's Law ) do's at all times and in all cases , oblige every Man's Conscience to active obedience to it , so as that he sins against God , if he transgress it . For then who could be innocent ? But First , where the Public or some private Person shall suffer damage or inconvenience by our not observing the Law ; or Secondly , where the Manner of our not obeying it argues contempt of Authority , or sets an ill example , there the transgression of a Human Law is sinful ; and not in other cases . So that there are many cases , in which a Man may transgress a purely Human Law , and yet not be a sinner before God ; provided , I say , there be no contempt of Authority , or ill example in it ; for either of these makes it a sin . For this I insist upon , that God's Law and the public good require , that Authority be held sacred ; and therefore when Governours insist upon a thing , tho' it be trifling or inconvenient , yet we must not even seem to contest the matter with them , provided it be not sinful . For to affront their Authority , or to encourage others by our example to do it , is a greater evil to the public , than our obedience to an inconvenient Law can easily be . IV. I shall now consider the power of Human Laws to oblige the Conscience in the instance of Church-Communion . And here I affirm , That every Man is bound in Conscience to join with the Church establish'd by Law in the place where he lives , so long as that Church is a true sound part of the Catholic Church , and nothing sinful is requir'd as a condition of Communion with it . For I have already shewn , that Men are bound to obey Human Laws , that are not contrary to the Laws of God ; and therefore they must obey in Church-Matters ; unless it can be shew'd , that God has forbidden Men to make Laws about Religion ; which can never be done . But farther , I earnestly desire it may be well consider'd by Dissenters , that we are all really bound by the Laws of Jesus Christ and the Nature of his Religion , to preserve as much as in us lies , the Unity of the Church , which consists not only in professing the same faith , but joining together in the same worship . And therefore whoever breaks this Unity , doth really transgress the Laws of Jesus Christ , and is guilty of Schism , which is so much caution'd against , and so highly condemn'd in Scripture . Those therefore , who think they are no more bound to come to Church , than to obey any common Act of Parliament , are greatly mistaken ; because they break not only the Law of Man , but the Law of God. For tho' all the circumstances of Worship are Human Institutions , yet the Public Worship it self , under Public Lawful Governours , is of Divine appointment ; and no Man can renounce it without sinning against Christ as well as Human Laws . A Divine Law cloath'd with circumstances of Man's appointment , creates another kind of obligation , than a Law , that commands a thing perfectly indifferent . In the former case we must obey , because 't is God's own Law ; in the other we only obey Man , because God has obliged us in general to obey our Superiours . God commands every Subject to pay tribute to whom tribute is due : but Human Authority determines , out of what goods , and in what proportion he must pay . Now , because Human Authority interposes , if a Man can by fraud detain the King 's right , do's he incur no other guilt , than breaking an Act of Parliament , and being liable to penalties , if he be detected ? Yes certainly ; for Tribute being injoin'd by God's Law , the Man is unjust , and breaks God's Law ; and his willingness to suffer the penalties do's not lessen his guilt . The Case is the same as to Church-Vnity ; for tho' Human Laws prescribe particular circumstances and Forms of Worship : yet God's Laws oblige us to keep the Unity of the Church , as much as to pay the King his due . And that Man , that paies his just debts by such a method , as the Law of the Land declares to be unjust , may as well acquit himself from knavery before God ; as that Man , that chuses a way of public worship in opposition to the Church-Laws , can acquit himself of Schism before God. Nay , separation from the Church is so much against the Law of God , that shou'd Human Laws grant a Toleration , and call no Man to an account for separation from the establish'd Church ; yet such a separation wou'd still be a Schism , and a Sin against God. For no Human Law can make that Lawful , which God's Law has forbidden . V. It remains , that I speak of the Authority of Conscience , or how far a Man is obliged to be guided by his Conscience in his actions ; that is , how far we are obliged to act or not act , when we are convinc'd in our judgment , that the action is commanded or forbidden by God. Now our judgment concerning what God has commanded , or forbidden , or left indifferent , is either right or wrong . If right , we are said to have a right Conscience ; if wrong , we have an erroneous Conscience . There is also a doubting Conscience , when we know not well how to make any judgment at all ; but of this I shall Treat in another place . Now if our Conscience or judgment be right , that is , according to God's Law , without doubt we are forever bound to act according to it ; nor can we sin in doing so , whatever the consequence be . But the great question is , what we must do , when our Conscience is erroneous and mistaken ; and to answer this , I lay down three Rules , which I think , may give any Man satisfaction . First , Where a Man is mistaken in his judgment , even in that case it is alwaies a sin to act against it . Tho' we take a sin for a duty , or a duty for a sin : yet so long as we are thus persuaded , it will be a great crime to act against this persuasion . Because by so doing we act against the best light we have at present ; and therefore our will is as wicked , as if it acted against a true light . Nothing but Conscience can guide our actions ; and tho' an eroneous Conscience is a very bad and unsafe guide ; yet still 't is the only guide we have : and if we may lawfully refuse to be guided by it in one instance , we may with as much reason reject it's guidance in all . What is a wilful sin , or a sin against knowledge , but acting otherwise , than we were convinc'd to be our duty ? Is not that Man thought sincere , that acts as he believes ; and that Man an hypocrite , that acts otherwise , whether his judgment be true or false ? He , who being under a mistake , acts contrary to his judgment , wou'd certainly upon the same temptation act contrary to it , were his judgment never so well inform'd . And therefore his Will being as bad in the one case as in the other , he is equally a sinner as to the Wilfulness of the Crime , tho' indeed in other respects there will be a great difference in the cases . Shou'd a Jew turn Christian , or a Papist turn Protestant , while yet they believe their former Religions to be true , we shou'd all believe them to be great Villains and Hypocrites ; because they did it upon base principles , and in contradiction to their judgments . Nay we shou'd all think more favourably of a Protestant , that being seduced by a cunning Papist , did really out of Conscience go over to the Romanists , than of such Persons . All this put together shews , that no Man can in any case act against his judgment , but he is guilty of sin in so doing . Secondly , The mistake of a Man's judgment may be of such a nature , that as it will be a sin to act against his judgment , so it will likewise be a sin to act according to it . For that action is good and a duty , which God has commanded , and that is a sin which he has forbidden . 'T is not our Opinion , but his Law , that makes things good or evil . And therefore we shall be forever obliged to do some actions and forbear others , whatever our judgment be ; because we cannot alter the Nature of things . For if the Moral goodness or badness of actions were to be measur'd by Mens opinions ; then duty and sin wou'd be the most uncertain things in the world , and what is good or evil to day , wou'd be the contrary to morrow , as any Man's opinion alters . But such consequences are intolerable ; and therefore , tho' a Man do's follow his judgment , yet he may be guilty of sin ( and be damn'd for it too ) if his judgment lead him to act against the Law of God. But it must be observ'd , that I do not say , that every action according to a mistaken judgment is sinful ; but that a Man's mistake may be such , that it will be a sin to act either against it , or according to it . For a Man may often mistake , and yet not sin ; provided his mistakes do not lead him to a breach of God's Law. For First , if a Man believe a thing to be commanded by God , which is neither commanded nor forbidden ; as if he think himself obliged to Pray seven or three times a day ; he is certainly mistaken , because God has bound him up to neither . And therefore , since God has not commanded the contrary , he may safely act according to his mistake ; nay , so long as his mistake continues , he is bound to do so . Secondly , If a Man believe a thing to be forbidden by God , which is neither commanded nor forbidden ; as if he think that God has forbidden him to play at Cards ; in this case he may follow his false opinion without sin ; nay he is bound to follow it . Because , since God has not forbidden it , 't is no sin to follow his mistaken Conscience ; but it is a sin to act against it . But then in other cases , when a Man thinks that to be sinful or indifferent , which God commands ; or that to be Lawful or a Duty , which God forbids ; here the mistake is dangerous , and it is a sin to act against his judgment , or according to it . Thirdly therefore , for the untying this great difficulty , I say , That the great thing to be attended to in this case of a Man's following a Mistaken Judgment , is the faultiness or innocence of the mistake upon which he acts ; for according as this is , so will his guilt in acting according to it , be either greater or less , or none at all . If the mistake be such , as an honest minded Man might make ; if he did his best to understand his duty , and wanted means to know it better ; then we think him innocent , and not properly guilty of any sin , tho' the action is contrary to God's Law. For no Man is obliged to do more , than what is in his power to do ; and whatever a Man is not obliged to do , it is no sin in him , if he do it not . Since he cou'd not understand better , his mistake and acting according to his mistake are not sinful . The only point is this ; whether the Man be to be blam'd for his erroneous Conscience , or no. If the errour be not his own fault , he doth not sin in acting according to it : but if he had power and opportunities of informing his Conscience better , and yet neglected so to do , tho' it was his duty ; then the Man sins , while he acts contrary to God's Law under the mistake ; and his sin is greater or less in proportion to his negligence . Thus you see , that God enables all Men to do their duty ; and that none lie under a necessity of sinning , but those who wilfully embracing false Principles , fall into sin , whether they act according to their Conscience , or against it . Having now done with the Five Principles of my Discourse , I proceed to my first intended business ; that is , to speak to the Case of those that separate from the Communion of the Church of England upon this pretence , That it is against their Conscience to join with us in it . And that I may clear this point , I shall do two things ; First , I shall separate those who can plead Conscience for their Non-Conformity , from those that cannot ; for a great many that pretend Conscience , refuse Communion with us upon another Principle . Secondly , I shall enquire , how far this Plea of Conscience , when truly made , will justify any Dissenter , that continues in separation from the Church . First then , that I may Distinguish the true Pretenders to Conscience from the false ones , I shall lay down this proposition , that no Man can justly plead Conscience for his separation from the Church of England , or say , that it is against his Conscience to join in Communion with it , unless he is persuaded , that he cannot Communicate with us without sinning against God in so doing . For God's Law is the only Rule to judge , whether an action be a Duty or a Sin , or indifferent ; and Conscience is nothing else , but a Man's judgment of an action , whether it be a Duty , or a Sin , or indifferent by that Rule . So that a Man cannot be bound in Conscience to do or forbear any action , unless he is persuaded , that God's Law has commanded or forbidden it ; and therefore no Man can justly plead Conscience for Non-Conformity , unless he is persuaded , that God's Law has forbidden him to join with us . If it be said , that a Man , who do's not think our Communion directly sinful , may notwithstanding think it his duty to join constantly with others , for his greater Edification , or the like cause ; I answer , that my proposition still holds , because he thinks , that he is bound by God's Law to join with others , which Law he must not break by leaving them to join with us . Again , If it be said , that a Man , who do's not think our Communion unlawful , but only doubts of the lawfulness of it , may justly plead Conscience for Non-Conformity , so long as his doubts remain ; I answer , that if he thinks it a sin to do any thing with a doubting Conscience , then he thinks , that our Communion is forbidden by God , so long as his doubts remain : but if he do's not think it a sin to act with a doubting Conscience , then it cannot go against his Conscience to join with us . So that my proposition remains true , that none can justly plead Conscience for Non-Conformity , but those who think , that they cannot join with us without sin . Now since this proposition is so certainly true , how many Men's pretences to Conscience for their separating from us , are hereby cut off ? For First , those that separate , either because they have been disobliged by some Church-Man , or to please a Relation , or increase their Fortunes , or procure or regain a Reputation , or for any other worldly consideration , cannot plead Conscience for separation . Nor Secondly , can those Lay-People , who are resolv'd to hear their beloved Teachers in Conventicles , since they cannot hear them in our Churches , and who wou'd join with us , if we wou'd suffer those Godly Men to Preach ; nor Thirdly , those who dislike Forms of Prayer , Ceremonies , &c. thinking them not convenient , tho' they do not judge them to be sinful ; nor Fourthly , those who separate upon the account of Edification , or acquaintance with Persons of another persuasion ; or because many Godly Persons condemn our way ; all these , I say , cannot justly plead Conscience for their separation . Because neither fancy , nor example can be the Rule of any Man's Conscience , but only the Law of God : and therefore such Persons cannot justly plead Conscience , because they do not think our Communion to be forbidden by God's Law. Nor Fifthly , can those plead Conscience for their separation , who think that our Governours have encroach'd too much upon Christian Liberty , and laid too much stress upon indifferent things ; for suppose the Governour 's be faulty in it , yet the Conscience of the Subject is not concern'd , so long as the things commanded do not interfere with any Law of God. Nor Sixthly , can those justly plead Conscience for their separation , who can join with us sometimes both in Prayer and the Lord's Supper ; for if our Communion be sinful , with what Conscience do they dare to join in it at all ? and if it be lawful once , it is a duty alwaies . But leaving these false pretenders , I proceed to the case of those , that can justly plead Conscience for their separation , or who think it a sin to join with us ; for I shall consider the case of those that plead a doubting Conscience afterwards , in a particular discourse . Secondly therefore , I shall inquire how far this Plea of Conscience , when truly made , will justify any Dissenter , that continues in separation from the Church . For there are many , that say , they wou'd join with us with all their hearts , but they are really persuaded , they cannot do it without sin . For they think , that it is against the command of Christ to use Forms of Prayer , the Cross in Baptism , kneeling at the Sacrament , and the like . And surely , say they , you wou'd not have us join in these practices , which we verily believe to be sins . They are so well satisfy'd in their separation upon these accounts , that they think themselves safe , and that they are able to justify themselves to God and all the world . Now in answer to this , I grant , that if the things they except against , be really forbidden by God , then they are not to be blam'd ; for then separation from us is not a sin , but a duty . Nay , supposing that they think that to be forbidden , which is not really forbidden ; yet so long as they think so , they cannot act against their mistaken Conscience without sin . But then the point we stand upon is this , that our Governours do require nothing that is forbidden by God ; and therefore their thinking our Communion unlawful will not acquit them from being guilty of sin before God. I am not now to answer the particular objections against our establishments . This has been sufficiently done already in the several foregoing Chapters . The Point I am concern'd in , is this , whether a Man 's thinking our Communion to be unlawful , when indeed it is not unlawful , will justify his separation from it : and I answer , that a Man's false persuasion will not justify his breaking of God's Law. So that if God's Law do's command me to hold Communion with the Church where I have no just cause to break it , my false persuasion will not acquit me from sin before God , if I separate from it without just cause . Tho' the truth of this appears from what I have said before , yet I shall further confirm it by asking this question . When St. Paul thought himself bound in duty to persecute Christians , was his persecution sinful , or no ? Yes surely ; for he call's himself the greatest of sinners for that very reason . And therefore a Man's thinking a thing to be a duty or lawful , will not acquit him before God for doing that thing , if it be against God's Law. So that it infinitely concerns all Dissenters to consider well , before they separate . For Schism is a crying sin , and as vehemently spoken against by Christ , and his Apostles , and the Fathers , as any sin whatever . Let Dissenters look to it , that they be not guilty of it ; for their false persuasion , that our Communion is unlawful , will not make their separation to be no Schism . This matter will appear a little more evident , if we put the case in another instance , wherein we are not so nearly concern'd . Suppose a Papist , that heartily believes Popery to be the only true Religion , do's in obedience to it worship Images and the Host . This person wou'd certainly abhor these practices , did he think them to be Idolatrous ; but he believes them to be necessary duties . And yet we do all charge such Papists with Idolatry , tho' they disclaim it , and profess they do no more than their duty , when they give divine worship to such objects . And we charge them rightly in this ; for if it be really Idolatry by God's word to do so ; then it will be Idolatry in any Man to do so , let his opinion be what it will. For a Man 's false opinion doth not alter the nature of things . Now the case is the same in the matter before us ; for causeless separation is as properly Schism , as worshipping a Creature is Idolatry : and he is as much a Schismatic , who thinks it his duty to separate , as he is an Idolater , who thinks it his duty to worship a Creature . A Man's mistake , according to the greater or less culpability of it , will more or less excuse him before God in both instances : but it cannot change the nature either of Schism or Idolatry . But it will be said ; What shall a Man do ? He cannot Conform with a safe Conscience ; and yet he sins , if he do not . I answer , he is to take all imaginable care to rectify his mistakes , and then he may do his duty without sinning against his Conscience . Now the only way of doing this , is by laying aside Pride , Passion , Interest and all other Carnal prepossessions , and endeavouring seriously and impartially to understand his duty ; considering without prejudice , what can be said on both sides , advising with the wisest Men , and above all things seriously endeavouring to understand the Nature and spirit of the Christian Religion , practising all undoubted duties , and begging God's Assistance for the Matters in question . Well , but supposing a Man has done all this , and after all his endeavours is persuaded that he cannot join with us without sin ; what shall this Man do ? This is the great difficulty , and I have two things to say to it . First , We do heartily wish , that this was the Case of our Dissenters ; for then I am persuaded , our scandalous divisions wou'd presently be at an end . But alas ! we fear they have not done their duty in this Matter ; that they have not heartily endeavour'd to satisfy themselves . If they had ; surely they shou'd , before they pronounc'd Conformity to be unlawful , be able to produce some one plain Text to prove it so . For the Texts they produce are such , as had they in the least examin'd them , cou'd scarce have been wrested to such a sence . Nay , the generality of Dissenters do not seem to have much consulted their own Teachers in this affair . If they had , they wou'd think better of our way than they do . For the most eminent of their own Ministers are ready to declare , that tho' some things may be inconvenient , yet a Lay-Person may lawfully join with us in all things ; nay , they themselves are ready upon occasion to join in all the instances of Lay-Communion . In short , most of our Dissenters have taken up their opinions hand over head , and scarce think it possible for them to be in the wrong . Shew us a Man , that has no end to serve by Religion , but only to go to heaven , and in the choice of his way is only concern'd that it be the way that leads him thither ; that is wonderfully sollicitous about his duty , and will refuse no pains to understand it ; that in the midst of Church-divisions is modest , humble and docible , and believes that he and his friends may be mistaken ; that thinks his Governours may be wiser than himself , and that every opinion , that he has inconsiderately taken up , ought not to be maintain'd against Authority ; a Man , that where his duty to God seems to thwart his duty to Man , endeavours to be truly inform'd ; and to that end begs God's assistance , and uses the best helps and guides he can , hears and reads the arguments on both sides , and is byassed neither way ; I say , shew us such a Man , and we readily grant , he has done his best to satisfy himself . But then we must add , that we believe , such a Man will soon think it , not only lawful , but his Duty also to Conform . Secondly , If a Man has really done his best to satisfy his Conscience , and yet thinks it a sin to Conform ; tho' his separation be materially a Schism , yet he is not formally guilty of it . For all those that commit Schism , are not equally guilty of it , Those that separate to serve a turn , are horribly and inexcusably guilty of Schism ; and those that separate thro' such mistakes , as they might have avoided if they had been careful , are very blameable , and are bound , as they love their souls , to take more care of informing their Consciences , that so they may leave their sin : but when God , who searches the hearts , knows that a Man did his best , and had not means or opportunities of understanding better ; then tho' the Man commit Schism , yet he is innocent of it . And God , who judgeth of Men by their inward sincerity , will impute it to his ignorance , and forgive it at the last day ; especially if this innocently mistaken Man be careful in the following points . First , that he be not obstinate , but ready to receive Conviction . Secondly , That he separate no more , than he needs must ; but comply in all those instances , where he is satisfy'd he may do it with a safe Conscience . Thirdly , That where he cannot comply , he patiently submit to the penalty of the Law ; neither exclaiming at his Governours or the Magistrates , nor using illegal means to get more liberty , but living as a quiet and peaceable Subject . Fourthly , That he do not censure those of another persuasion , but shew himself a good Neighbour and friendly to them . Whoe're observes these things , tho' he dissent from us , I shall be loth to censure him as an ill Man , ill Subject , or ill Christian . But then all that I have said , do's no more justify or lessen the sin of Schism , than the sin of Idolatry ; for the case is the same in both , whether the Man be a deluded Dissenter , or a deluded Papist . And therefore , notwithstanding all that may be said concerning the innocence or excusableness of some Mens mistakes about these matters ; yet nevertheless , it infinitely concerns every Person , to have a care how he be engaged either in the one or the other . To conclude ; I have shewn how absolutely necessary 'tis , that every Man shou'd endeavour to inform himself aright , before he disobey his Governours or separate from the Church ; and that tho' something in our worship be really against his Conscience , yet separation may be a great sin , if a Man shou'd prove to be mistaken in his Notions . And therefore every Dissenter ought presently to set about the true informing of his judgment , for fear he live in a grievous sin . Let him not satisfy himself with frivolous pretences . For tho' we agree in the rule of faith and manners ; yet Schism is a dreadful sin , and a Man may be damn'd for that as certainly , as for heresy or drunkenness . Sure I am , the ancient Fathers thought so . What if the points of Conformity be matters of dispute ? Who made them so ? The Church of England wou'd have been well pleas'd , if these Controversies had never been . We think a Man may be a very good Christian and go to heaven , that is not able to defend our Ceremonies , &c. but he that separates upon the account of them , is bound at the peril of his own Salvation , to use the best means he can , to be satisfy'd about them . To those that pretend , that these are subtil points above their capacity , I answer , that since they have understanding enough to find fault and separate , they ought to have honesty enough to seek satisfaction ; which is all that we desire of them : otherwise they will never be able to answer to God or Man for the Mischiefs of Separation . We are bound , especially in this case , to prove all things , and hold fast that which is good . For no Man can disobey his Superiours without sin , unless after he has us'd his best endeavours , he finds their commands inconsistent with his duty to God. For a Man to disobey till he has done this , is an unwarrantable thing ; and in the Case I now speak of , it is no less than the sin of Formal Criminal Schism . CHAP. XII . The pretence of a Doubting Conscience Answer'd . I Come now to the Case of those , who separate , because they doubt , whether they may lawfully Communicate with us or no ; and who fear they shou'd sin in doing any thing with a doubting Conscience . To this I might answer from the former Chapter ; that if Communion with our Church be a Duty , no Man's doubts concerning the lawfulness of it , will justify his separation from it . For if a Man's setled Persuasion , that an action is unlawful , will not justify his omission of it , supposing that God commands it ; much less will his bare doubt excuse him . But because this answer seems rather to cut the knot , than to unty it , I shall particularly examine this Plea of a doubting Conscience , by giving an account , First , Of the nature of a doubting Conscience . Secondly , Of the Rule of it . Thirdly , Of the Power that Human Laws have over it . Fourthly , Of its Authority , i. e. whether at all , or how far a Man is obliged by it . I. In speaking of the Nature of a doubting Conscience I shall Treat , 1. Of doubting in General . 2. Of such doubts as affect the Conscience . 3. Of the difference between the doubting and the scrupulous Conscience . First Then , A Man is said to doubt , when he cannot determin , whether the thing he is considering , be so , or be not so ; he thinks the question probable on both sides , but cannot fix upon either . So that his mind is like a ballance , when by reason of equal weight in both Scales , neither Scale comes to the bottom . 'T is true , a Man may lean more to one side of the question , than the other ; and yet be doubtful still ; just as one Scale may have more Weight than the other , while yet that Weight is not able to carry it perfectly down : but when there is so much more evidence on one side , that the mind can determin it self , then the Man doubts no longer , but is said to be Persuaded ; as the Ballance is said to be fixt , when there is Weight enough to carry it down on either side . 'T is true , a Man has not alwaies the same degree of Persuasion . Sometimes the evidence is so strong , that he intirely assents without the least doubtfulness . This is Assurance or full Persuasion . At other times the evidence may gain an Assent , but not such as excludes all doubts of the contrary . This kind of Assent is call'd Opinion or probable Persuasion . So a greater or less Weight carries down the Scale with greater or less force and briskness . But still , in both these Cases , the Mind is determin'd , the Ballance is turn'd , and the doubt is ended ; tho' perhaps the Man is not perfectly free from all scruple about that thing . Secondly then , I shall Treat of such doubts as affect the Conscience . A Man may doubt of any thing , which he has to consider , but every doubt do's not affect the Conscience . As a Man's Conscience is affected with nothing but his own actions , so his doubts do not affect his Conscience any farther , than they concern his own actions . And as his Conscience is not affected with his own actions any otherwise , than as they are commanded or forbidden by God's Laws ; so his doubts concerning them affect his Conscience no otherwise , than as God's Law may be transgressed in them . So that , where a Man apprehends no danger of transgressing God's Law , his doubts about an action do not concern his Conscience . Thirdly , From what has been said 't is easie to perceive the difference between the doubting and the Scrupulous Conscience . Every body knows , that when we speak of a Resolved Conscience , we mean , that the Man is satisfy'd , whether the action be a Duty or a Sin , or indifferent . Now the Scrupulous Conscience is a Conscience in some measure Resolved , but yet accompanied with a fear of acting according to that resolution . The Person is convinced , that the thing is fit to be done , and has nothing considerable to object , nor any new reasons to unsettle him ; but yet when he comes to act , he is troubled with unaccountable fears . But the doubting Conscience is quite different , and is nothing else but the suspense of a Man's judgment in a question about the Duty or the Sin of an Action , occasion'd by the equal ( or near equal ) probabilities on both sides . The resolv'd Conscience acts chearfully ; the scrupulous Conscience acts fearfully : but the doubtful Conscience is not satisfy'd at all , because of the equal appearances of reason on both sides . The Man that has either a resolv'd or a scrupulous Conscience , passes a judgment on the thing : but a doubting Conscience passes no judgment at all ; for then it wou'd no longer be a doubting Conscience . After all it must be acknowledg'd , that truly and strictly speaking , a doubting Conscience is no Conscience at all . For Conscience , as we have often said , is a Man's mind making a judgment about the morality of his actions : but a doubting Conscience wavers , and is a Man's mind making no judgment ; and therefore it is not properly a Conscience . And we may as well say an unresolv'd resolution , as a Doubting Conscience . However , to comply with Custom , I follow the Common way of speaking . II. I proceed now to the Rule of a doubting Conscience ; in speaking of which I shall shew , First , what kind of Rule Conscience needs in a doubtful case . Secondly , what that Rule is . First then , by the Rule of a doubting Conscience I mean , not a Rule by which a Man may resolve all doubts concerning every point , so as to doubt no longer about it ; but a Rule , by which he may determine in every doubtful case , so as to act with a safe Conscience , whether he can get rid of his doubts or not . A Rule , that determines , not whether a thing in general be lawful , or no ; but what I am to do , where I doubt of the Lawfulness of the thing . For instance , the Rule of a doubting Conscience is not to determine , whether is be Lawful to play at Cards ; but what I must do , if I doubt of the Lawfulness of playing at Cards . Before a Man acts , he ought to be satisfy'd , that that side of the action , he determines himself to , is , all things consider'd , the more fit and reasonable to be chosen : but it is absurd to say , that no Man must act , till he is able to unty all the difficulties , and resolve all the doubts , that may have been started about the Action . For this in many cases is utterly impossible ; the Person may not have sufficient time or means for the doing it . And in such a case , a man cannot possibly do better , than to get satisfy'd by reason and advice , what is fittest for him to do in the present circumstances , and to proceed accordingly . And this is certainly the the usual way of proceeding among the most conscientious men . Thus have I shewn what kind of Rule Conscience needs in a doubtful case . Secondly therefore , I shall shew what that Rule is , first by giving an account of the general Rule it self ; and then secondly , by applying it to the several Heads of doubtful cases . 1. First then , since a Man never doubts but upon equal appearances of Reason on both sides , it is plain , that nothing ought to turn the Ballance , but greater weight of Reason ; and therefore the Rule of a doubting Conscience is , That in all doubtful cases , that side which , all things consider'd , doth appear more reasonable , is to be chosen . Some indeed say , that in doubtful cases the safer side is to be chosen : but I do purposely avoid the expressing it so , because the Rule is true or false , according as the word safer side is expounded . For First , if by safer side we mean that side which is more free from danger of sinning , I think the Rule will prove rather a Snare , than a Guide to a Man's mind . For if this Rule be true , most Persons do transgress it every day ; nay the best of men do frequently expose themselves to such dangers of sinning , as they might have avoided ; and this without any reproach from their own Conscience , or any censure from other men . He that avoids all entertainments , is certainly more free from the danger of intemperance , than others are ; and yet when occasion serves , no Man makes any great scruple of going to them . We are not commanded to avoid all possible danger of sinning ; but only to avoid all sin , when we are in danger . For otherwise , he that wou'd be Religious , must forsake all worldly business , and retire to a Cloyster . But to come more strictly to the point ; there are many cases , in which the most honest Person do's not think he is obliged to determine himself to that side of the action , on which he apprehends there is least danger of sinning . For First , greater probability will often turn the Ballance against the greater safety . Thus if a Man scruple eating Blood , and afterwards by discoursing with a Learned Person be satisfy'd , that it is far more probable that he may Lawfully eat it , than that he is forbidden to eat it ; I believe most men will think , that he may eat it with a quiet Conscience . And yet it is certainly more safe not to eat it ; because many do question whether it be Lawful to do so , but all men grant it may be Lawfully forborn . Secondly , greater temporal advantages will have weight enough with a very honest Man to over-ballance the greater safety . Thus if after the strictest inquiry a Man be not satisfy'd , that he owes a sum of Money , which another demands confidently and with great appearances of Reason ; there are equal probabilities on both sides . If he pay the Money , perhaps his circumstances are such , that he wrongs his Wife and Children ; and if he refuse to pay it , perhaps he detains another Man's right from him . In this case , since it is as probable that the demand is unjust , as that it is just ; I believe most men will say , that he ought not to prejudice himself and his family , till it be either by Law adjudg'd , or he have more convincing proofs , that he ought to pay it . It appears therefore , that any Man ( who is wise as well as good ) may in many cases wave the safer for the more Prudent side ; and consequently it is not alwaies a Rule to a doubting Conscience to chuse the safer side , or the side which is more free from danger of sinning . But Secondly , if by safer side we mean that which is freest from all dangers and inconveniences of all kinds whatsoever , and do's best serve all the Spiritual and Temporal interests that a wise and good Man can propose ; I freely grant , that it is the only Rule to a doubting Conscience to follow the safer side . For then the safer side is the more reasonable side , which , as I said before , is in all doubtful cases to be chosen . 2. Having given an account of the general Rule of a doubting Conscience , I come now in the Second place to make application of it to the several Heads of doubtful cases . Now all doubts of Conscience are either single or double . It is a single doubt , when a Man doubts on one side , but is satisfy'd on the other . For instance , he doubts , whether it be Lawful to do the action , but is satisfy'd he may Lawfully omit it ; or he doubts whether he may Lawfully omit it , but is satisfy'd he may Lawfully do it . It is a double doubt , when a Man doubts on both sides ; when he is at a loss what to do , because he fears he may sin , whether he do's the action or do's it not . First , as to the case of a single doubt , we may thus apply the General Rule . When a Man doubts only on one side , it is more reasonable , if all other Considerations be equal , to chuse that side which he hath no doubt of . In such a case we must not do what we doubt of ; for it is unreasonable to run the risque of sinning , when a Man can without any inconveniency avoid it . If a Man doubt , whether it be Lawful for a Christian to go to Law , and cannot positively determine with himself , whether it be Lawful or Vnlawful so to do ; in this and all other such-like cases the Rule is plain , that while he doubts , it is more reasonable to forbear ; because he runs a hazard in venturing upon what he doubts of , but he runs no hazard in forbearing . But then if there be other Considerations to over-ballance this Consideration of uncertainty ; it will be more reasonable to chuse that side , which I did before doubt of . Nay it is our Duty so to do ; for if I doubt , I do by doubting own , that I cannot tell whether the action be Lawful or Vnlawful ; and surely then the weight of pressing Considerations ought to turn the Ballance ; otherwise I cannot answer to my self or the World , for the consequences that may ensue . Thus if I am Guardian to an Orphan , whose Estate is so entangled , that a Law-suit is necessary for the clearing it ; I am obliged , notwithstanding my doubt , to secure his Right by going to Law. To conclude ; it is not only Lawful , but Advisable , to do that which we doubt of , if a great good may be compass'd , or a great evil may be avoided by the doing of it . Secondly , in the case of a double doubt , when a Man fears he may sin , whether he do the action or do's it not , it is in vain to say , he must get his doubt remov'd ; for perhaps that may be impossible thro' want of time or good Counsel . He is therefore to follow the same Rule as in other doubtful Cases ; that is to say , he is to act as reasonably as he can : and if he do this , I am sure he incurs no blame . But because the application of this General Rule is various , according to many circumstances that may happen , therefore I shall comprise all the varieties in these Four following Propositions . 1. If the sin we are afraid of , appear equal on both sides , we must do that , which we doubt the least of ; that is , we must do that which appears more probable to be free from the danger of sin . 2. If we think there is equal danger on both sides , we must do that which appears to be the less sin . 3. If we think the one side more probable , and the other less sinful ; we must act according to the degree of the probability , or the sin . If there be much more probability on the one side than on the other , and but small difference between the sins ; then we must act that which is more probable . But then , if the consequences on one side , if a Man shou'd happen to be mistaken , be so terrible , that they over-ballance all the probabilities on the other side ; a wise Man will act that , which sets him free from these consequences . Thus if a Man be try'd for his Life , and the Evidence against him be not so full as to create a persuasion in the Jury that he is Guilty ; in this case , they shou'd rather acquit him , notwithstanding some probabilities of his Guilt , than run the hazard of doing Murder by condemning the innocent . 4. If a Man doubts equally on both sides , and the sin appear equal on both sides ; then his own ease , or advantage , or reputation , or any other prudential inducements must determine him to do the action he doubts about , or to let it alone . When all is said , every Man in doubtful cases is left to his own discretion ; and if he acts according to the best Reason he has , he is not culpable , tho' he be mistaken in his measures . But to render these Rules about a double doubt more intelligible and more useful , I shall give the Reader an instance of a Case , in which they are all apply'd . The case is this , Here is a Man , that thinks it his Duty to receive the Sacrament constantly , or at least frequently ; but on the other side , tho' no grievous sin lies upon his Conscience unrepented of , yet by reason of his mistakes about the Nature and Ends of the Lord's Supper , and the dispositions that fit a Man for it , he is under great fears of his being unqualify'd for it . Now the question is , what this Man , who after all his endeavours cannot get over these difficulties , ought to do . For if he do not come to the Sacrament , he doubts he sins on that account ; if he do come , he doubts he approaches unworthily , and so sins upon that account . Shall he receive the Sacrament doubting as he do's ? or shall he forbear it doubting as he do's ? Now a Man cannot resolve this question , but by applying the foregoing Rules after this manner . First , since the Man doubteth , that he sins , whether he come to the Sacrament or forbear ; it must be consider'd , which side appears most likely to free him from sin . Now I am confident , he will think it more reasonable to come meanly prepar'd than customarily to abstain ; because he is much more certain , that 't is his duty to frequent it , than that he is unprepar'd for it . Indeed were he a debauch'd person , or had he been lately guilty of some notorious Sin , and came to the Lord's Table with that sin unrepented of ; he had reason to dread unworthy receiving , as much as abstaining : but since the case is quite otherwise , since he is mistaken while he thinks himself unworthy ; certainly he runs a greater danger by absenting himself , than by coming with his doubts about him . Because his doubts of his unworthiness , being only surmises , cannot possibly be so well grounded , as his doubts , that he sins by habitually abstaining , which is expresly forbidden by God's Law. Secondly , Tho' it can hardly be suppos'd in our case , yet let us suppose , that the Man has as much reason to believe , that he is an unworthy receiver , if he receive at all ; as he has to believe , that it is a sin in him if he do not receive ; the question then is , which is the least sin , to receive unworthily out of a sence of duty , or not to receive at all . For the least sin is to be chosen , when he cannot avoid both . For my part I think , that a Man , who obeys one known Law of God for Conscience sake , when he cannot do it without breaking another law in the manner of performance ; I say , I think that that man , tho' he is not innocent , yet is far less guilty , than he who omits a known duty , and so breaks a known Law of God for Conscience sake . Suppose two Men , who know themselves to be unfit so much as to say their Prayers ; one of these Men doth upon this account forbear all Prayers ; the other dares not to forbear his usual offices , tho' he believes he performs them sinfully . Now I dare say , that all Men will think him the better Man , who says his Prayers ; tho' both of them be very faulty . Because whatever a Man's indisposition be , he is oblig'd to do his duty as well as he can ; and it is better to perform a duty after an ill manner , than wholly to omit it . Since therefore the greater sin is to be avoided , when a Man is under a necessity of committing one ; it 's more reasonable that a Man shou'd come to the Sacrament , doubting of his unworthiness , than that he shou'd habitually abstain from it . If it be said , that he that eateth and drinketh unworthily , eateth and drinketh damnation to himself ; 1 Cor. 11.29 . and that there cannot be a greater sin , than that which will actually damn a Man : I answer , that let the sin of receiving unworthily be as damnable , as we can reasonably suppose it ; yet the sin of totally withdrawing from it , is much greater and more damnable . So that if he who partakes unworthily , doth eat and drink damnation to himself ; he that partakes not at all , is so far from mending the matter , that he doth much increase that damnation . And certainly , did Men seriously consider what a sin it is to live without the Sacrament , and what dreadful consequences they bring upon themselves hereby , they wou'd not look upon it as so slight a matter to neglect it : but what apprehensions soever they had of the sin and danger of receiving unworthily , they wou'd think it more sinful and more dangerous not to receive at all . Thirdly , Suppose the Man takes all opportunities of receiving the Sacrament , tho' perhaps he is not often very well satisfy'd about his preparation : but since his last receiving he finds he has liv'd more loosly than he was wont , or he has been very lately guilty of some grievous sin ; so that he thinks himself unfit to receive at his next usual time . Upon this he is in a great perplexity ; for he thinks he has more reason to believe he sins , if he receives in these circumstances , than if he forbears ; because he is more certain that God forbids him to receive unworthily , than he is certain , that God commands him to receive upon every opportunity . But then if he be really bound to receive upon every opportunity , he is sensible in that case , it is a greater sin to neglect this duty , than to perform it unworthily , so long still as he performs it out of Conscience . On one side he runs a greater danger of sinning ; on the other , if he be mistaken , he sins in a greater degree . What now is the Man to do in this case . I answer ; First , It is very reasonable that he shou'd forbear receiving , once or twice , for his exercise of repentance and better preparation against another opportunity . Because , since we have no reason to think that God has commanded us to receive so many times a year , any more than that we shou'd pray so many times a day ; we are not oblig'd by an express Law to receive upon every opportunity : but there is an express law against receiving unworthily , and therefore there is greater danger in doing so . So that the consideration of the certain danger ought to over ballance that of the greater sin ; and the Man ought rather to defer his receiving , than to receive in his present circumstances . But Secondly , a Man must not habitually absent himself upon the the account of unworthiness . For I have shewn , that there is more danger of sinning by not receiving at all , than by receiving unworthily ; and there is a much greater sin in wholly withdrawing , than in coming with never so great fears of being unfit . And therefore he must receive frequently , tho' he be in danger of doing it unworthily ; rather than not receive at all . Fourthly , if the Person think , that the danger of sinning and the sin it self are equal , whether he receive or no ; then he is to consider the inducements of Prudence and Interest , and they are to turn the ballance . And it is plain , that it is better to receive than to forbear , upon those accounts . For besides the temporal advantages of receiving , he reaps this Spiritual profit by it , viz. that he takes the best method of growing more worthy , and curing his doubts ; whereas by absenting himself his doubts increase , and he is in great danger of losing that sense of Religion , which he now has . Thus have I shewn how to apply all the Rules concerning a double doubt ; and if I have dwelt too long upon this subject , I hope the frequency and importance of the case will excuse me . III. Having setled the Notion and Rule of a Doubting Conscience , I come now in the Third place to speak of the power of human Laws over a Doubting Conscience . And my assertion is , that wherever lawful Authority has commanded an action , that command is ( generally speaking ) a sufficient warrant for a Man to do that action , tho' he doubts whether in it self it be lawful or no. That I may speak clearly to this point , I shall , 1. premise some things . 2. shew the grounds of my assertion . 3. answer the Objections brought against it . 1. I premise Five things . First , That no Authority upon earth can oblige Men to do what God forbids , or to forbear what God commands . Secondly , If a Man thinks that thing , which his Governours oblige him to , is sinful ; tho' he be mistaken , he cannot obey them without sinning . But then , if he be mistaken , he also sins in disobeying ; if he be mistaken thro' his own fault . Thirdly , If a Man doubt , whether the action injoin'd by Authority be sinful or no ; yet if he think it unlawful to act against his private doubt , he cannot do that action without sin . But then if this Notion of his be false ( as I shall shew it is ) he sins also in disobeying , if he be mistaken thro' his own fault . Fourthly , If a Man has been so extremely careless in learning his duty , that he doubts of the plainest matter ; in such a case a Man is highly accountable for doing that which contradicts the Law of God , tho' he did it purely in obedience to that Authority which God has set over him , and purely in compliance with this true principle , that in doubtful cases we must be guided by our Superiours . For certainly , if a sinful thing be commanded , not only he that commands , but he that obeys also , must answer for it , whether he do it doubtingly , or with a persuasion of it's lawfulness . Only we must remember , First , that this is true only in such cases where the Man might have known his duty , had he not been careless ; for if a Man be ignorant or doubtful , because he wanted means or opportunities of informing himself , he is not guilty of sin before God , tho' he break God's Law. Secondly , that when this case happens , the sin doth not lie in obeying his Superiours with a doubting conscience ; but in his doing that , which he wou'd have known to be sinful , if he had been so careful as he shou'd have been . For obeying his Superiours , whether with a doubt or without one , is no part of the sin . Fifthly I premise , that whatever the power of Superiours be for the over-ruling a private doubt ; it must not destroy the truth , or take away the use of the foregoing Rules in the Case of a double Doubt . Because the case of obeying Superiours , when we doubt of the Lawfulness of their commands , is a double Doubt as properly as any other : and therefore , if it be two to one more probable , that the command is unlawful , than that it is lawful , we must not obey it by the first Rule . But then , tho' the Authority of Superiours alone will not turn the Ballance ; yet there are usually such considerations of the greater sin and more dreadful consequences of disobeying , as will outweigh all the probabilities on the other side , and make it more reasonable to obey . However , if the command be lawful , a man's false opinion that it is sinfiul , will not excuse him ; unless his mistake be such as he cou'd not rectify . These things being premis'd , the plain question is this ; whether in the case of a pure doubt about the lawfulness or unlawfulness of an action , where the probabilities are on both sides pretty equal , and where likewise the Man concern'd has done all that he was obliged to do for the satisfying himself ; whether , I say , in this case the command of a lawful superiour do's not oblige the Man to do that of which he doubteth . I affirm , it do's oblige him so to do ; and therefore , 2. I shall shew the grounds of my assertion . And First , Modesty obliges us to pay as much deference to the judgment of our Superiours , as this comes to . If a doubt shou'd arise about the lawfulness of any civil practice , we shou'd without any great difficulty be determin'd by the judgment of a few Learned , Prudent and honest Persons , whom we think better able to judge of the case than our selves ; and do's it not argue much self-conceit and great contempt of our Superiours , to refuse the same respect to their judgment , whose business it is to consult and command for the best ? Secondly , Bishop Sanderson and other Casuists agree , that in all disputed cases , he that is in possession of the thing contended for , has the advantage of the other , that contends with him , supposing all other things be equal . Thus , if I am in possession of an Estate which another Claims , I cannot justly be dispossessed , till the other Man's Title appears to be better than mine . Now in our Case the Superiour asserteth his right and commandeth ; the Subject questioneth his right , because he doubts whether the command be not sinful : but since the superiour is in possession of the Authority to command , the Subject must by no means by his disobedience dispossess him of that Authority , till he is convinced , that he has greater reason to disobey , than to obey . But this is impossible , because the reasons are suppos'd equal on both sides . Thirdly , Since in all doubtful Cases it is a common rule , that the safer side is to be chosen , 't is certain , that 't is safer to obey than to disobey in a doubtful case . For there is a plain Law of God that commands us to obey Superiours in all lawful things ; and if the command be unlawful , the only hazard we run , is of transgressing some Law of God , which we did not know , and which perhaps we were not bound , or had not means to know : but in a doubtful case it is very uncertain , whether the Law of God forbid the thing or no ; and if the command be lawful , then we run the hazard of transgressing a plain Law which we cannot but know , and which is of the greatest importance to Mankind . Fourthly , Since in all cases we must do as we would have others do to us , let us consider whether we should not think it unreasonable for our own inferiours to contradict our Rules upon pretence of doubting about their being lawful . If a Parent should command his Son to sit uncover'd before him , or a Master command his Servant to dress a Dinner on the Lord's-Day , and either of them should refuse to do so , because he is not satisfy'd that the thing is lawful ; would not a Parent or a Master say , I am to judge what is fit for you to do , and you must not think by your foolish doubts and scruples to controul my commands ? I dare say , most Men will think this a very just reply . And if so , then our Superiour also is to be obey'd in purely doubtful cases , notwithstanding our doubt . And if we think otherwise , it is because our own Liberty and Interest are concern'd , and we are prejudiced in favour of our selves . Fifthly , If Superiours may not determine in merely doubtful cases , their authority signifies nothing , nor can it secure the public happiness . For there is no indifferent thing , but some Person or other will doubt whether it be lawful ; and if such a doubt be a just reason to deny obedience , what will be the consequence of such a principle , but perpetual confusions ? For instance , if a Prince make War , and every ignorant and unexperienced Subject may lawfully withdraw his assistance , in case he doubts whether that War be lawful or no ; what a sad case wou'd that Kingdom be in ? But these consequences are intolerable ; and therefore the principle from whence they flow , must needs be thought intolerable also . 3. Having thus prov'd my assertion , I come now to answer the arguments that are brought on the other side . First then they say , if the Superiour must determine in every doubtful case , the inferiour must often commit most grievous sins . As for instance ; if a Man doubt whether Jehovah or Baal be the true God , and the Ruler command that Baal shou'd be worshipp'd , the Man must renounce the true God. But this is no argument against us ; for I have already said , that neither doubtfulness nor ignorance will excuse an action that is plainly sinful , tho' it be done in obedience to Authority ; and I only assert , that the Superiour is to over-rule , when we doubt equally , whether an action be lawful or no , and have done our best to satisfy our selves . Nay , this argument concludes as strongly against them , as against us . For if a Man doubt , whether Jehovah or Baal be the true God , and the Ruler command that Jehovah only should be worshipp'd ; what advice wou'd they give the doubting Man ? If they say , he must obey the Ruler , they give up the cause ; and if he must not obey the Ruler , he must worship Baal , and so be guilty of Idolatry . Secondly They say , that God has commanded us to obey our Superiours , not in all things , but in those things only , which are not contrary to his Law. So that when we are uncertain , whether the command be lawful , we are also uncertain , whether we are bound to obey ; and therefore it is no more our duty to obey , than to disobey . But I answer , that I have already given many weighty reasons , why we should rather obey than disobey , when we equally doubt whether the command be lawful or no. But Thirdly , the principal argument is drawn from St. Paul's words , He that doubteth is damn'd , if he eat , because he eateth not of faith ; for whatsoever is not of faith , is sin ; Rom. 14.23 . From whence they argue , that if it was a sin to eat any food , tho' in it self lawful to be eaten , so long as they doubted whether it was lawful or no ; then by parity of reason it must be a sin to do any other action , so long as we doubt of the lawfulness of it ; and if so , the Ruler's command will not make it lawful to do it . This is the great argument , and I shall give it a full answer ; only I think it needful to premise a general account of the Text it self , before I take of the objection that is drawn from it . Now St. Paul discourses in this Chapter of the case of those Jewish Christians , who were persuaded , or at least thought it most probable , that they were bound to keep Moses's Laws concerning the observation of daies and difference of meats ; whereas other Christians , who were better instructed , made no scruple of eating any kind of food , tho' forbidden by the Law of Moses . If it be said , that the second verse intimates their total abstinence from flesh , and eating only herbs , which Moses's Law did not oblige them to ; I answer ( with some Fathers ) that they thinking the Law still in force , chose to eat only herbs , that their way of living might pass rather for a Religious abstinence , than a legal observance ; and so the other Christians might not reproach them for keeping the Law. As for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we translate he that doubteth , it do's as properly signify he that maketh a difference ; and it is so us'd both in Scripture and other Writers . And therefore the Text is thus to be rendred , he that maketh a difference ( between meats ) is damn'd or condemn'd if he eat ( any thing which he judgeth to be unclean ) because he eateth not of faith . This rendring is put in the Margin of our Bibles , and is approv'd by most Latin Expositors . The word faith also in this and the foregoing verse , do's not signify , in the large sence , a belief of the Christian Religion , but only a Man's assent to the lawfulness of any particular action , that he takes in hand . So that to have faith about an action , is to be persuaded that it is lawful ; and to do an action not of faith , is to do that which we have reason to think is unlawful . And whereas St. Paul saith , he is damn'd if he eat , we must observe that he do's not mean damnation in hell , but the condemnation of his own Conscience ; so that the sense is this , He that maketh a difference between meats , and yet eateth , is condemn'd for it in his own Conscience ; because he do's that which he apprehends to be sinful . That Man will soon be satisfy'd of the truth of this interpretation , who considers that St. Paul had been persuading the stronger Christians , who thought it lawful to eat any sort of food , not to give scandal to the weak Christians , who thought otherwise . And he thus concludes his advice ; Hast thou faith , art thou satisfy'd that it is lawful to eat any sort of food ? have it to thy self before God , enjoy thy persuasion ; but do not upon every occasion make use of it , least thy weak Brother be embolden'd by thy example to do that , which he thinks to be unlawful . 'T is true , happy is he that condemneth not himself in that which he alloweth , happy is he that do's not do what he thinks to be unlawful ; but he that doubteth , that maketh a difference between meats , is damn'd or condemn'd in his Conscience , if he eat what he thinks it is not lawful to eat , because he eateth not of faith , and is not satisfy'd that it is lawful to eat it ; and whatsoever is not of faith , whatsoever a Man thinks unlawful , is sin to him that thinks it so . Having thus given an account of the Text it self , I am now to consider the objection , which is drawn from it , and which , as I have already said , is this ; If it was a sin to eat any food , tho' in it self lawful , so long as a Man doubted , whether it was lawful or no ; then by parity of reason it must be a sin to do any other action , so long as we doubt of the lawfulness of it . But I answer , that this Text is nothing to the purpose ; for St. Paul here speaks not of a Doubting Conscience , but of a Resolv'd Conscience only . For the Persons he speaks of , were not wavering in their minds ; but were persuaded that those meats were unclean , because they thought the Law of Moses still in force . This is clear from the 2 , 5 , and 14 verses of this Chapter ; I know ( saith St. Paul ) and am persuaded , ' that there is nothing unclean of it self : but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean , to him it is unclean . If it be said , that the word doubteth is us'd , and that to doubt of the unlawfulness of an action , is quite another thing , than to be persuaded of it ; I answer , that the word may as properly be rendred , he that maketh a difference between meats , as he that doubteth . But tho' the word doubteth be retain'd , yet it is undeniably plain that St. Paul speaks of a doubt strengthen'd with so many probabilities , that it wanted but very little of a persuasion ; or rather it was a persuasion with some mixture of doubtfulness . If the Man was not fully persuaded that it was a sin to eat , yet he thought it much more probable that it was a sin , than that it was not . For he cou'd not be condemn'd of his own Conscience for eating , if he did not think his eating to be unlawful , and were not in some degree persuaded of it . Well , but the Apostle says , v. 5. One man esteemeth one day above another , another man esteemeth every day alike : let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind . From whence 't is plain , that a Man must be persuaded that the action is lawful , else he doth not act with a safe Conscience . And is not that the very same thing that is here said , He that doubteth is condemn'd if he eat , because he eateth not of faith , or with a full persuasion ? The Apostle therefore by the former Text directs us to interpret this latter in the proper sence of doubting . But I answer , that St. Paul did not oblige them to get full persuasions in their several waies , for there was too much of that already amongst them ; and 't was nothing to his purpose to tell them , that if they acted without a full persuasion of the lawfulness of the action , they sinn'd against Conscience : but his design was to persuade them , quietly to permit each other to enjoy their several persuasions in those little matters without censuring one another . So that the words must be rendred , Let every one be fill'd with his own mind , or satisfy'd with his own persuasion . This indeed differs from our English Translation : but Grotius and the Vulgar Latin , as well as St. Chrysostom and Theodoret do thus interpret it ; and moreover the matter requires it . For otherwise the precept is neither reasonable nor possible ; since if there appears reason of doubting , it is in vain to command a man not to doubt . Nay it is then as much his duty to doubt , as in other cases to believe . Thus then it appears that these words ( he that doubteth is damn'd if he eat ) do not overthrow my assertion . But , tho' this is a true and substantial answer to the argument , yet I shall give another , which unties the difficulty upon the Dissenters own Principles . Supposing therefore ( what is utterly false ) that St. Paul speaks of a really doubting Person , and not of one that is persuaded ; and that the Man did sin in eating those meats , of the lawfulness of which he doubted : yet it do's not follow , that a Man sins in obeying Authority , where he doubts of the lawfulness of the command . For there is a vast disparity in the Cases ; since the Man St. Paul speaks of , was at Liberty to forbear eating , and sinn'd in chusing to run a needless hazard of transgressing God's Law ; but when the Superiour commands , a Man is not at Liberty . In the former case the Man might forbear without any danger , but in the latter case there is greater danger in forbearing than in acting ; and therefore he is Bound to act in the latter case , tho' it might be sin to act in the former . But further , the reason , why he that eateth doubtingly , sins in so doing , is this , because he eateth not of faith ; and therefore St. Paul do's not say , it is alwaies sinful to act in a doubtful case ; because there are some doubtful cases , wherein a Man may act with faith , notwithstanding his doubt . For he that is satisfy'd that he acts according to his duty in the present circumstances , do's act with faith ; and therefore when a Man is satisfy'd that it is more reasonable , all things consider'd , to do an action than to forbear it , and that it wou'd be sinful in his circumstances to act otherwise ; that Man do's not sin in acting , tho' he act with some kind of doubt ; because he acts in faith , being satisfy'd that he acts according to his duty in his present circumstances . Thus then 't is plain , that to obey authority in a purely doubtful case is not sinful ; because a Man may soon be satisfy'd , that it is not only more reasonable , but his duty so to do . If it be said , that a Man cannot have faith , that is , be satisfy'd about an action , and yet doubt of it at the same time ; I answer , that the case often happens . A Man has often very great doubts about the lawfulness of an action in general , and yet may be satisfy'd , that considering the circumstances he is in , it may be lawfully done . All doubting is not contrary to faith . It is sufficient if the doubts be over-ballanc'd . Tho' a Man's doubts be hard and troublesome , yet if he is persuaded , that all things consider'd , it is more advisable to do the action , than to forbear it ; he has faith enough to act with a safe Conscience . Because he acts according to his best judgment , and more than this a Man cannot do . IV. I am now to speak in the Fourth and last place of the authority of a doubting Conscience , and to inquire , whether at all , or how far a Man is obliged by it . I say therefore in general , that a doubting Conscience do's not oblige at all . For a doubting Conscience is the suspence of a Man's judgment about a particular action ; he doubts whether he be bound to do it or forbear it . Now to suppose that a Man thinks himself bound in Conscience , while he is disputing whether he is bound or no , is to suppose a contradiction . A Man cannot be bound in Conscience to do or forbear any action , but as he thinks that God's Law has commanded or forbidden it ; and therefore he that is doubtful , whether it be commanded or forbidden , cannot be obliged in Conscience either way . There is no particular Law of God , which determines our actions one way or other in the case of a doubt ; and the general Laws , whether natural or reveal'd , can oblige us to no more , than to endeavour to understand our duty as well as we can ; and when we are at a loss , to act as reasonably as we can . He that do's thus , acts with a safe Conscience , tho' he act doubtfully . Having thus largely discuss'd the case of a doubting Conscience , I think it will not be amiss to apply what has been said to the Case of our present Dissenters . There are several Persons , that are unsatisfy'd about the lawfulness of our Communion ; some upon the account of Ceremonies , others of other things . None of them can say , that these things are unlawful ; for that is the case of a resolv'd Conscience , with which we have nothing here to do : but they are uncertain , whether they be lawful or no ; and so long as they thus doubt , they dare not join in our worship , fearing they shou'd sin against God in so doing . Of these Persons some have a single doubt , that is , they doubt whether they may lawfully join with us , but they are satisfy'd they may lawfully separate from us : others have a double doubt , that is , they doubt whether they may lawfully join with us , and they doubt whether they may lawfully separate from us . As to the First of these sorts , tho' in a single doubt it is more safe to chuse that side on which a Man has no doubt , than that on which he doubts ; yet this Rule holds only in such cases , where a Man may forbear the action without danger of sinning , tho' he cannot do it without danger of sinning . But in our case 't is evident , that as there may be sinning in Conforming , so there is certainly danger of sinning in not Conforming . Nor is it more safe to separate in case of a single doubt , than of a double one . For the Man who is satisfy'd in his mind , that he may lawfully cut himself off from the Communion of the Church , and live in constant disobedience to his Superiours ( which things are directly contrary to God's Laws ) must needs be grosly and criminally ignorant of his duty ; and therefore his being satisfy'd about such sins will not excuse him ; because he was able , and it was his duty to know better . Nay further , tho' God had left it indifferent , whether we keep the Unity of the Church and obey our Superiours or no ; tho' the case were really that of a single doubt ; tho' there was no danger in forbearing these things , but the only danger was in doing them ; yet I say , it is more reasonable to Conform than to Separate notwithstanding . For tho' in a single doubt a Man is to chuse that side on which he has no doubt , rather than that on which he doubts ; yet this Rule ( as I said before ) do's not hold , unless all other considerations be equal . And therefore if a great good may be obtain'd , or a great evil avoided by acting on the doubtful side , that consideration ought to turn the Ballance , and over-rule the doubt ; as I shew'd in the Case of going to Law. And certainly , if weighty considerations ought to over-ballance a single doubt in any case ; then the considerations of the Peace of the Kingdom , the Security of Religion , and those many Public and Private Mischiefs that attend Separation , ought to prevail in this of ours , and oblige Men to Conform . And I wish this were well consider'd by our doubting Dissenters . As to the Second sort , who doubt both of the lawfulness of Conforming , and also of the lawfulness of separating from us ; I say First , if the probabilities appear pretty equal on both sides , then it is their duty to obey Authority as I prov'd in the Third general Head of this Discourse . Secondly , if they think it more probable that they ought not to Conform , than that they ought ; then , tho' the Authority of Superiours alone have not weight enough to turn the Ballance , yet the consideration of the great sin and the more dreadful consequences of separation are sufficient , and ought to oblige them to Conform , as appears from the Third prop. about a double doubt , p. 256 , 257. Now let any indifferent Man judge between us and our Dissenters . 'T is plain , that the things they doubt of , are not directly forbidden by God. And if they are forbidden by consequences , those consequences are so obscure , that tho' such usages have ever been in the Christian Church , yet they were never condemn'd as sinful till our daies . And even now these consequences are not discover'd by our superiours ; no , not by as great and good Divines of all persuasions , as any in the World. Nay the far greater number , and those as Pious and Able as any , do plainly own our injunctions to be innocent at least , if not Apostolical . So that if they are all mistaken , it can at most be but a sin of ignorance in an ordinary person , where so many of the best guides are mistaken , if he shou'd transgress . But now on the other hand , if our Governours be in the right , and our Communion lawful ; then how great a sin are they guilty of , in breaking the Laws of Church-Vnity , which are as plain as any in the Bible ; and that in such instances , where the whole Catholic Church of Old , and the greatest and best part of the present Church , are of a different persuasion from them ? The consequences also of their separation are most dreadful ; for by it they deprive themselves of the ordinary means of Salvation , and keep up those discords and animosities in the Church , which have torn the bowels of it , and caused Atheism and Prophaness to overspread it ; they affront their Governours , give scandal to all peaceable persons , and offer a very fair pretence to factious Men to practise against the best of Goverments . So they take the Most effectual course to ruin the best Church in the World , and with it the reform'd Religion in this Kingdom . And now let any Man judge , whether any doubt about the lawfulness of our Communion , and all the probabilities of the doubt , have weight enough to Ballance against such a sin and such consequences . Certainly an unconcern'd Person will pronounce , that in such a case a Man is bound to Conform , rather than to Separate ; and that is all I contend for . CHAP. XIII . The pretence of a Scrupulous Conscience Answer'd . I Proceed now to the pretence of a Scrupulous Conscience ; in Treating of which I shall , 1. Shew what I mean by it . 2. Observe some few things concerning it . 3. Offer some plain Rules and Means , by which we may best get rid of it . First then , Conscience is a Man's judgment concerning the Goodness or Evil or his Actions ; and a Scrupulous Conscience is a Scrupulous judgment concerning things in their own nature indifferent ; and consists either , 1. in strictly tying up our selves to some things , which God has no where commanded ; as the Pharisees made great Conscience of washing before meat , &c. and observ'd such usages as Religiously , as the most indisputable commands of God : or , 2. in a conscientious abstaining from some things , which are no waies unlawful ; doubting and fearing where no fear is ; thinking that God is as much offended by our eating some kind of Meats , or wearing some Garments , as by Adultery or Murder ; and being more precise about little matters , than other Good Christians are , or our selves ought to be . Secondly , Concerning this Scrupulous Conscience we may observe , 1. that it is a sickly temper of Mind , and a state of Infirmity , arising from a Want of right understanding our Religion , from Timerousness , Melancholy , and Prejudice . Now this is no more a Vertue or commendable Quality in us , than 't is to be sickly and often indispos'd . A good Conscience is firm and steady , well setled and resolv'd : but such needless scruples are at the best a sign of an ungovern'd fancy and a weak judgment ; just as the Niceness and Squeamishness of a Man's stomach , that distasts Wholsom Food , is a symptom of an unsound and unhealthy Body . 2. 'T is often a sign of Hypocrisy ; as 't was in the Scribes and Pharisees , who strain'd at a Gnat and swallow'd a Camel , and hoped to make amends for their gross Transgressions in other cases of far greater Weight and Moment , by their curiosity about some external Observances . They therefore who are so Scrupulous about little indifferent matters , ought to approve their Honesty and Sincerity by the most accurate diligence in the practice of all other Duties of Religion , which are plainly and undoubtedly such . They who pretend to such a tender Conscience above other Men , must know , that the World will watch them as to the fairness and justice of their Dealings , the calmness of their Tempers , their Behaviour in their several Relations , their Modesty , Humility , Charity , Peaceableness , and the like . If in all these things they keep the same Tenor , use the same caution and circumspection , and be uniformly conscientious ; then it must be acknowledg'd , that it is only Weakness or Ignorance that raiseth their Scruples , and not any vicious Principle ; and the condition of those who are under the power of such Scruples , is much to be commiserated . But when I see a Man scrupling praying by a Book or Form , and yet living without any sense of God , or fear of him ; afraid of a Ceremony in God's Worship , and not afraid of a plain damnable Sin , of Coveteousness , rash censuring his Brethren , of Hatred and Strife , Faction and Schism , and disobedience to Superiours ; when I see one that out of Conscience refuseth to kneel at the Sacrament , and yet dares totally neglect the Communion ; who takes great care not to give offence to his weak Brother , but can freely speak evil of Dignities , and despise his lawful Governours : it is not then uncharitable to say , That it is not a dread of displeasing God , but some other End or Interest that acts and moves him ; and that in pleading the Tenderness of his Conscience he is no other than a downright Hypocrite . 3. 'T is excessively troublesome and vexatious . It robs a Man of that Peace and Satisfaction , which he might otherwise find in Religion , and makes his Condition continually uneasy and restless . 4. It 's scruples are infinite and endless ; for there is hardly any thing to be done , but some small exceptions may be started against it . Scrupulous Men go on from one Thing to another , till at Length they Scruple every thing . This is notorious amongst us ; for those who have taken Offence at some things in our Church , and have thereupon separated from us , and associated themselves with a purer Congregation , have soon dislik'd something amongst them also ; and then they wou'd reform themselves farther , and after that refine themselves more still , till at last they have sunk down either into Quakerism , Popery , or Atheism . 5. This Needless scrupling has done unspeakable mischiefs to the Church of Christ , especially to the Reform'd Church of England . In the great and necessary Truths of Religion we all profess to be agreed . We all worship the same God , believe in the same Lord and Saviour , have the same Baptism , the same Faith , the same Hope , the same common Interest : our Sacraments , as to the main , are rightly administred according to our Saviour's Institution ; our Churches are acknowledg'd to be true Churches of Jesus Christ ; but there are some Constitutions which chiefly respect outward Order , and the decent Performance of Divine Worship , against which Men have receiv'd strange Prejudices , on the account of them have rais'd a mighty noise and clamour against the Church , and have openly separated from her Communion ; as if by renouncing of Popery we had only exchanged one idolatrous Service for another . About these Skirts and Borders , the dress and circumstances of Religion , has been all our quarrelling and contention ; and these Differences have proceeded to such an height , as to beget immortal Feuds and Animosities , to break and crumble us into little Parties and Factions ; whereby mutual Edification is hinder'd , our common Religion suffers Reproach , the Enemies of it are strengthen'd and encouraged , public Peace endanger'd , and brotherly Love , the Badge of Christ's Disciples , quite lost amongst us ; and the continuance of these miserable Distractions amongst us upon such frivolous Accounts , is a matter of sad consideration , and forebodes great Evils in Church and State. I doubt not to say , that the Devil has fought more successfully against Religion under the Mask of a zealous Reformer , than under any other disguise whatever . Thirdly , I shall offer some plain Rules and Means , by which we may best get rid of a Scrupulous Conscience . 1. We shou'd Endeavour to have the most Honourable thoughts of God ; for accordingly as we Conceive of His Nature , so shall we judge what Things are most Pleasing or most Offensive to Him. Now consider , I pray ; Do's not God principally Regard the Frame of our Minds in Prayer ? or will He refuse to hear us , because He dislikes the Garment of the Minister ? Do's God regard any particular Gestures or Habits , which are neither Dishonourable to Him , nor Unsutable to the Nature of the Religious performance , so far , as that the acceptance of our Worship shou'd depend upon such Circumstances ? To surmise any such Thing is surely to Dishonour God , as if he were a low , poor , humoursom Being ; like a Father that shou'd disinherit his Dutiful Child , only because he did not like his Complexion , or the Colour of his Hair. The Wiser and Greater any Person is , to whom we address our selves , the less he will stand upon little Punctilioes . Mean Thoughts of God are the true ground of all Superstition , when we think to court and please him by making great Conscience about little things ; and so it has been truly observ'd , that there is far more Superstition in conscientious abstaining from that which God has no where forbidden , than there is in doing that which God has not commanded . A Man may certainly do what God has not commanded , and yet never think to flatter God by it , nor place any Religion in it : but he may do it only out of obedience to his Superiours , for outward Order and Decency , for which end our Ceremonies are appointed ; and so there is no Superstition in them . But now a Man cannot out of Conscience refuse to do what God has not forbidden , and is by lawful Authority requir'd of him ; but he must think to please God by such abstaining : and in this conceit of pleasing or humouring God by indifferent things , consists the true Spirit of Superstition . 2. We shou'd lay out our Great Care and Zeal about the Necessary and Essential Duties of Religion ; and this will make us less Concern'd about Things of an Idifferent and Inferiour Nature . St. Paul saies ; Rom. 14.17 . The Kingdom of God is not Meat nor Drink , but Righteousness , Peace , and Joy in the Holy Ghost . What needs all this stir and bustle ? this censuring , disputing and dividing , about Standing or Kneeling ? These are not the great matters of our Faith ; they are not worth so much Noise and Contention . The great stress and weight in our Religion is laid upon the Duties of a Righteous and Holy Life , and a Peaceable Spirit and Conversation ; For , saies St. Paul , ver . 18. he that in these things serveth Christ , is acceptable to God and approv'd of men . He that minds those Things most , on which the Efficacy of his Prayers for Christ's sake do's Depend , will not Need new Phrases every time to raise his Affections : and the more a Man is concern'd about the Necessary Preparation for the Sacrament , the less afraid will he be of offending God by Kneeling at it . For he will find , that True Religion consists in the Constant Practice of Holiness , Righteousness and Charity ; which make a Man really Better , and more Like to God. 3. If Men were but really Willing to receive satisfaction , this alone wou'd half conquer their Scruples : but when they are fond of them , and nourish them , and will neither hear nor read what is to be said on the other side ; there can be but Little Hopes of recovering them to a Right Apprehension of things . Wou'd they come once to distrust their own Judgments , to suppose that they may perhaps be all this while mistaken ; wou'd they calmly and patiently hear , faithfully and impartially consider , what is said or written against them ; as eagerly seek for satisfaction , as Men do for the cure of any Disease they are subject unto ; wou'd they , I say , thus diligently use all fit means and helps for the removal of their Scruples , before they troubled the Church with them ; it wou'd not prove so very difficult a Task to convince and settle such teachable Minds . When they have any Fear or Suspicion about their worldly concerns , they presently repair to those who are best skill'd , and most able to resolve them ; and in their judgment and determination they commonly acquiesce and satisfy themselves . Has any Man a Scruple about his Estate , whether it be firmly setled , or he has a true legal Title to it ? The way he takes for satisfaction is to advise with Lawyers , the most eminent for Knowledge and Honesty in their Profession . If they agree in the same Opinion , this is the greatest assurance he can have , that it is right and safe . Thus is it with one that doubts whether such a custom or practice be for his Health ; the opinion of known and experienc'd Physicians is the only proper means to determine him in such a Case . The reason is the same here . When any private Christian is troubled and perplex'd with Fears and Scruples , that concern his Duty or the Worship of God ; he ought in the first place to have recourse to the public Guides and Ministers of Religion , who are appointed by God , and are best fitted to direct and conduct him ; I say , to come to them , not only to dispute with them , and pertly to oppose them ; but with modesty to propound their doubts , and meekly to receive Instruction , humbly begging of God to open their Understandings , that they may see and embrace the truth , taking great care that no evil affection , love of a Party , or carnal Interest influence or byass their Judgments . I do not by this desire Men to pin their Faith upon the Priest's Sleeve ; but only diligently to Attend to their Reasons and Arguments , and to give some due Regard to their Authority . For 't is not so Absurd , as some may Imagine , for the Common People to take upon Trust from their Lawful Teachers , what they are not Competent Judges of themselves . But the difficulty is , how a private Christian shall govern himself , when the very Ministers of Religion disagree . By what Rule shall he chuse his Guide ? I answer , 1. If a Man be tolerably able to Judge for himself ; let him impartially hear both sides , and think it no Shame to Change his Mind , when he sees good Reason for it . Cou'd we thus prevail with the People diligently to examine the Merits of the cause , our Church wou'd every day gain more Ground amongst all wise Men. For we care not how much Knowledge and Understanding our People have , so they be but humble and modest with it : nor do we desire Men to become our Proselytes any further , than we give them good Scripture and Reason for it . 2. As for those who are not capable of Judging , they had better Depend on those Ministers , who are Regularly and by the Laws of the Land set over them ; than on any other Teachers , that they can chuse for themselves . I speak now of these present Controversies about Forms and Ceremonies , which are above the sphere of Common People ; not of such things as Concern the Salvation of all Men , which are plain and evident to the Meanest Capacities . When therefore in such Cases , about which we cannot easily satisfy our selves , we follow the Advice of the Authoriz'd Guides ; if they chance to Mislead us , we have something to say for our selves ; our error is more Excusable , as being occasion'd by those , whose Judgment God commands us to respect : but when we chuse Instructors according to our own Fancies , if we then prove to be in the wrong , and are betray'd into sin ; we may Thank our own Wantonness for it , and are more severely Accountable for such mistakes . Thus if a Sick Person shou'd miscarry under a Licens'd Physician ; he has this contentment , that he us'd the wisest means for Recovery : but if he will hearken only to Quacks , and then grow worse and worse ; he must charge his own Folly as the Cause of his Ruin. 4. We shou'd throughly consider , what is the true Notion of Lawful ; and how it differs from what is Necessary , and from what is Sinful . That is necessary , or our Duty , which God has expresly commanded ; that is sinful which God has forbidden ; that is lawful which God has not by any Law obliging us , either commanded or forbidden . For Where there is no Law , saith the Apostle , there is no Transgression , Rom. 4.15 . There can be no Transgression , but either omitting what the Law commands , or doing what the Law forbids . For instance , If any Man can shew where Kneeling at the Sacrament is forbidden in Scripture , and Sitting is requir'd ; where Praying by a Form is forbidden , and Extempore Prayers are injoin'd ; then indeed the Dispute wou'd soon be at an end : but if neither the one nor other can be found , as most certainly they cannot , then Kneeling at the Sacrament , and reading Prayers out of a Book , must be reckon'd amongst things lawful . And then there is no need of scrupling them , because they may be done without Sin : Nay , where they are requir'd by our Superiours , it is our Duty to submit to them , because it is our Duty to obey them in all lawful things . This way of arguing is very plain and convincing , and cannot be evaded , but by giving another notion of lawful . And therefore it is commonly said , that nothing is lawful , especially in the Worship of God , which God himself has not prescrib'd and appointed , or that has been abus'd to evil Purposes : but having fully confuted these two Mistakes in the Second and Eighth Chapters , I shall pass them over here . 5. I desire those who Scruple to comply with our Church , to consider that there never was , nor ever will be , any public Constitution , that will be every way unexceptionable . The best Policy , whether Civil or Ecclesiastical , that can be establish'd , will have some flaws and defects , which must be born and tolerated . Some Inconveniences will in process of time arise , that never cou'd be foreseen or provided against ; and to make alteration upon every emergent difficulty , may be often of worse consequence , than the evil we pretend to cure by it . Let the Rules and Modes of Goverment , Discipline , Public Worship , be most exact and blameless ; yet there will be faults in Governours and Ministers as long as they are but Men. We must not expect in this World a Church without spot or wrinkle , that consists only of Saints , in which nothing can be found amiss ; especially by those who lie at the catch , and wait for an advantage against it . Men must be willing , if ever they wou'd promote Peace and Unity , to put candid Constructions and Favourable Interpretations upon Things ; and not strain them on purpose , that they may raise more considerable Objections against them . 6. If these and the like Considerations will not conquer a Man's Scruples ; then let him lay them aside , and act against them . But here I easily imagine some ready presently to ask me , Do you persuade us to Conform to the Orders of the Church , tho' we are not satisfy'd in our Minds concerning them ? I answer , That I think this is the best Advice that can be given to such Scrupulous Persons . It wou'd be an endless thing , and Communion with any Church wou'd be altogether unpracticable , if every private Christian was obliged to suspend joining himself to it , till he was perfectly satisfy'd about the reasonableness and expediency of all that was requir'd , or was in use in that Church . For indeed ; private Persons are by no means proper Judges of what is fit and convenient in the Administration of Church-Goverment , Discipline , or public Worship , any more than they are of matters of State , or the Reasonableness of all Civil Laws . Things of a Public Nature belong to Superiours ; and if they Appoint what is Indecent or Inconvenient , they only are Accountable for it : but 't is not the Fault of Inferiours , who join with such Worship , or yeild to such Injunctions ( not plainly sinful ) for the sake of Peace and Order . I do not by this encourage Men to venture blindfold on Sin , or to neglect any reasonable care of their Actions ; but if People raise all the Difficulties and objections they can start , before they proceed to a Resolution about things that have no manifest Impiety in them , nor are plainly , nor by any easy consequence , contrary to the reveal'd Will of God ; this cannot but occasion infinite Perplexity and Trouble to Mens minds , and there are but few things they shall be able to do with a safe and quiet Conscience . Before we separate from a Church , or refuse to comply with it's Orders , we ought to be fully satisfy'd and persuaded , that what is requir'd , is forbidden by God ; because by leaving the Communion of any Church , we pass Sentence upon it and condemn it , which ought not to be done upon light and doubtful Causes . But there is not the same necessity , that we shou'd be thus fully satisfy'd about our Conformity to all things prescrib'd by the Church . We may presume them to be innocent , unless they plainly appear to us otherwise . If any one think , that this Principle will introduce Popery , and make People without any examination submit to every Thing , which their Superiours please to impose upon them ; let him only Consider , that there are many things in Popery , which God has manifestly forbidden , which render our Separation from it necessary : whereas ours are at the worst only doubtful , or rather not so Good as might be Devis'd ; and this surely makes a wide Difference in the Case . But do's not St. Paul say , Rom. 14.14 . I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus , that there is nothing Vnclean of it self ; but to him that esteemeth any thing Vnclean , it is unclean ? Do's he not say , He that doubteth , is damn'd if he eat , v. 23. and that whatsoever is not of faith , is sin ? I answer , Yes . But then , when I speak of a Scrupulous Conscience , I suppose the Person tolerably well persuaded of the lawfulness of what is to be done : but yet he has some little Exceptions against it ; he do's not think it best and fittest all things consider'd . This is properly a Scruple ; and is certainly the case of all those , who do sometimes join in our Worship ; which they cou'd not do , did they judge it absolutely sinful . So that , tho' it shou'd be granted , that a Man cannot innocently do that , of which his Conscience doubts whether it be Lawful or no , which case I have discours'd of in the foregoing Chapter : yet a Man may , and in some cases is bound to do that , which is not Unlawful , tho' upon some other accounts he Scruples the doing of it . Now , if we have no very Weighty Reason for the doing of them ; then it may be the safest way to forbear all such things , as we scruple at . Of such Cases the Apostle speaks in the fore-mentioned places of eating or not eating some Meats ; neither of them was requir'd by Law. Eating was no Instance of Duty , nor was it any waies forbid Christians . Where to do or not to do is perfectly at our own choice , it is best for a Man to forbear doing that which he has some suspicion of , tho' he be not sure that it is sinful . As suppose a Man have Scruples in his Mind about playing at Cards and Dice , or going to see Stage-plays , or putting out his Money to Usury ; because there is no great Reason or Necessity for any of these things , and to be sure they may be innocently forborn , without any detriment to our selves or others ; tho' we do not judge them absolutely sinful , yet it is safest for him who cannot satisfy himself concerning the Goodness and Fitness of them , wholly to deny himself the use of them . But in these two cases it is most for the quiet of our Consciences , to act against , or notwithstanding our Fears and Scruples , when either our Superiours , to whom we owe Obedience , have interpos'd their Commands , or when by it we prevent some great Evil or Mischie● . 1. All Fears and Scruples only about the Conveniency and Expediency of Things , ought to be despis'd , when they come in Competition with the Duty of Obedience . Wou'd Men but think themselves in Conscience bound to pay the same Duty and Respect to the Judgment and Authority of Magistrates and Governours , whether in Church or State , as they do expect their Servants and Children shou'd to themselves ; they wou'd soon see the reasonableness of such Submissions . For all Goverment and Subjection wou'd be very precarious and arbitrary , if every one that did not approve of a Law , or was not fully satisfy'd about the reasonableness of it , was thereby excepted from all Obligations to obey it . This is to give the Supreme Authority to the most humoursome or perverse sort of Christians ; for , according to this Principle , no public Laws and Constitutions can be valid and binding , unless every scrupulous , tho' a very ignorant Conscience , consent to them . 2. We are not to mind or stand upon our Scruples , when they probably occasion a great Evil , or general Mischief . They are not fit to be put in the ballance with the Peace of the Church and Unity of Christians . Suppose for once , that our public way of Worship is not the best that can be devis'd ; that many things might be amended in our Liturgy ; that we cou'd invent a more agreeable Establishment than this present is ; ( which yet no Man in the World can ever tell , for we cannot know all the Inconveniencies of any alteration , till it comes to be try'd ) yet granting all this , it cannot be thought so intolerable an Evil , as contempt of God's Solemn Worship , dividing into Sects and Parties , living in Debate , Contention , and Separation from one another . If there be some Rites and Customs amongst us not wisely chosen or determin'd , some Ceremonies against which just Exceptions may be made ; yet to forsake the Communion of such a true Church of Jesus Christ , and set up a distinct Altar in opposition to it , to combine and associate into separate Congregations , is ( as it is somewhere express'd ) like knocking a Man on the Head , because his Teeth are rotten , or his Nails too long . How much more agreeable is it to the Christian Temper , to be willing to sacrifice all Doubts and Scruples to the Interests of public Order and Divine Charity ? For better surely it is to serve God in a defective manner , to bear with many Disorders and Faults ; than to break the Bond of Peace and Brotherly Communion . CHAP. XIV . The pretence of Scandal , or giving Offence to Weak Brethren , Answer'd . BUT there are some , who tell us , that they are indeed themselves sufficiently persuaded of the lawfulness of all that is injoin'd by the Church of England ; but then there are many other godly , but weaker Christians of another persuasion , with whom they have long been join'd . And shou'd they now totally forsake them and Conform ; they shou'd thereby give great offence to all those tender Consciences , which are not thus convinc'd of the lawfulness of holding Communion with our Church . Which sin , say they , is so very great , that our Saviour tells us , Matth. 18.6 . Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me , it were better for him that a mill-stone were hang'd about his neck , and that he were drown'd in the depth of the sea : and in St. Paul's account 't is no less than spiritual murther , a destroying him for whom Christ dy'd , Rom. 14.15 . These Persons I design to answer in this Chapter , by shewing that No private Christian ( as the case now stands amongst us ) is obliged to absent himself from his Parish-Church for fear of Offending or Scandalizing his Weak Brethren . And this I shall do by inquiring , 1. What is the true Notion of a Weak Brother . 2. What it is to Offend such an one . 3. How far , and in what instances we are bound to consider the Weakness of our Brother . I. Then , a Weak Brother or weak in Faith in Scripture language denotes one newly converted to Christianity ; and so neither throughly instructed in the Principles , nor well setled in the practice of it ; the same whom our Saviour calls a little one , and the Apostle a babe in Christ , 1 Cor. 3.1 . Conversion to Christianity is call'd our New-birth ; and the Converts were for a while reckon'd as in an infant State : and accordingly were to be most gently us'd , till by degrees , by the improvement of their knowledge , they came to be of full Age , Heb. 5.14 . They were at first to be fed with Milk , to be taught the easiest and plainest Doctrines , and great Prudence and Caution was to be us'd toward them ; lest they shou'd suddenly fly back and repent of their change . For they having been Jews and Gentiles , retain'd still a great Love for many of their Old Customs and Opinions ; they had mighty and inveterate prejudices to overcome ; the Old Man was by degrees to be put off : and therefore they were at first treated with all the tenderness and condescension imaginable . The stronger and wiser Christians wou'd not stand rigidly on any little Matters , but Tolerate many things , which were necessary afterwards to be done away ; hoping that in time they might be brought off those mistakes they now labour'd under . Hence I observe , 1. That the Rules , which are laid down in Scripture concerning Weak Brethren , are not standing Laws equally obliging all Christians in all Ages : but were suted to the Infant-state of the Church , till Christianity had gotten firm footing in the World. The Apostle's design in all his complyances , was to win many to Christ ; 1 Cor. 9.19 . Now to do as St. Paul did , wou'd alwaies be the Duty and Wisdom of one in his circumstances , who was to spread Christianity amongst Heathens and Infidels : but his Directions and Practice do no more agree with our Times , wherein Christianity is the National Religion ; than the same Cloaths which we did wear in our Infancy , wou'd serve us now at our full Age. We ought indeed to remove every Straw out of Childrens way , lest they stumble and fall : but 't is ridiculous to use the same care towards grown Men. There is not now amongst us any such competition between Two Religions : but every one learns Christianity as he do's his Mother-Tongue . St. Paul wou'd not take that Reward that was due to him for Preaching the Gospel , but himself labour'd hard night and day , because he wou'd not be chargeable to his Converts , 1 Thess . 2.9 . and this he did for the furtherance of the Gospel , that all might see he did not serve his own Belly : but surely our Dissenters do not think themselves obliged by this Example , in places where public maintenance is setled on Ministers by Law , to refuse to take it , and earn their own Bread by some manual Occupation ; tho' thereby they avoid giving Offence to Quakers , and those who call them Hirelings , and say they prophesy only for filthy lucre . In short , there are no such Weak Persons now amongst us , as those were for whom the Apostle provides ; or as those little ones were , for whom our Saviour was so much concern'd . 2. The Dissenters , according to their weak opinion of themselves , are of all Men the farthest off from being Weak Christians in any sense . They who take upon themselves to be Teachers of others , wiser and better than their Neighbours , the only sober and godly Party , and are too apt to despise all other Christians as ignorant or profane ; with what colour of Reason can they plead for any favour to be shewn , or Regard to be had to them in complyance with their weakness ? Tho' they love to argue against us from the Example of St. Paul's condescension to the ignorant Jews or Gentiles ; yet it is apparent that they do not in other Cases willingly liken themselves to those weak Believers , or Babes in Christ . They have really better thoughts of themselves , and wou'd be Leaders and Masters in Israel , and prescribe to their Governours , and give Laws to all others , and prefer their own private Opinion ( which they call their Conscience ) before the Judgment of the wisest Men , or the Determinations of their lawful Superiours . And if in all Instances we shou'd deal with them as weak Persons , turn them back to their Primmer , advise them to learn their Catechism ; they wou'd think themselves highly wrong'd and injur'd . But the truth is , they ordinarily look upon their Opposition to the Orders of our Church , as the Effect of an higher Illumination , a greater Knowledge than others have attain'd unto . They rather count us the weak Christians , if some of them will allow us so much ; for otherwise , if they do not take us for the weaker and worse Christians , Why do they separate from us ? Why do they associate and combine together into distinct Congregations , as being purer , more select Christians than others ? Now , tho' such Persons as these may be in truth very weak , of little Judgment or Goodness , notwithstanding this Conceit of themselves and their Party ; yet these are not by any means to plead for Indulgence under that Character , nor to expect we shou'd forego our Liberty , to please and humour them . 3. Those who are really weak , that is , ignorant and injudicious , are to be born withal only for a time , till they have receiv'd better instruction : but we cannot be alwaies Babes in Christ , without our own gross fault and neglect . Such as will not yield to the clearest reason , if it be against their Interest or their Party , can upon no account claim the privileges of Weak Persons . Of these our Saviour had no regard , who were so unreasonable and obstinate in their opposition , Matth. 15.14 . Not that I wou'd be so uncharitable as to condemn all , or the generality of Dissenters for being Malicious and wilful in their dissent from us : but however , 1. I beg them to examine , whether they have sincerely endeavour'd to satisfy themselves , and have devoutly pray'd to God to free their minds from prejudices and corrupt affections ; for otherwise their Weakness is no more to be pity'd , than that Man's sickness , who will not , tho' he may be cur'd . 2. I must say , that old and inveterate Mistakes , that have been a 1000 times answer'd and protested against , are not much to be heeded by us . If People will by no means be prevail'd upon to lay aside their fancies , they do not deserve that compassion , which St. Paul prescribes towards Weak Brethren . In matters of a doubtful or suspicious nature , that are capable of being misunderstood and abus'd , yet if there be no Moral evil in them , and the doing of them is of some considerable consequence to me ; I am bound to forbear them no longer , than till I have endeavour'd to inform them rightly concerning the innocency of my action and intention , and given them notice of the evil , that might possibly happen to them . If I dig a pit or lay a block in the way , whereby others not knowing any thing of it , are hurt and wounded ; I am guilty of causing them to fall : but if they are plainly and often told of it , and yet will run into the danger ; they are then only to thank themselves . Now , if it be thus in Cases that are liable to suspicion and misinterpretation ; it holds much more in the Orders of our Church , where the Offence arises not so much from the Nature of the Injunctions , as from Mens gross ignorance , mis-conceit , or perverseness . This shall suffice to shew , what is the true Notion of a Weak Brother . II. I am now to shew , what it is to offend such an one . People are generally mistaken about the sense of offending or giving offence . For by it they commonly understand displeasing or grieving another , and making him angry with them ; and so they think themselves bound in Conscience to forbear all those things , which Godly Persons do not like or approve of , or are contrary to their Fancy or Judgment . 'T is true , there is one place , that seems to favour this conceit ; Rom. 14.15 . If thy brother be grieved with thy meat , now walkest thou not charitably . But it must be observ'd , that by grieving our Brother , is not meant displeasing , but wounding and hurting him : and so it is us'd to denote that which causeth grief or sorrow ; and is the same with destroying , and putting a stumbling-block or an occasion to fall , v. 15 , 21. To be offended or griev'd is not to be troubl'd at what another has done out of pity and concern for his Soul : but to receive hurt our selves from it , being drawn or deceiv'd into some sin by it . But because many well-dispos'd People do think , that they must not do any thing , which good Men are displeas'd or griev'd at , I desire them to consider a few things . 1. That to censure and condemn , and be displeas'd with the actions of those that differ from them , or refuse to join any longer with them in their separate Congregations , is a great instance of peevishness and uncharitableness ; and is that very sin which St. Paul often warns his Weak Believers against , viz. that they shou'd not rashly judge those , who understood their Christian Liberty better than themselves . At this rate any company of Men , that shall resolve to quarrel with all that do not do as they do , must oblige all to remain forever with them , for fear of giving them offence . If what I do , is not evil in it self ; it cannot become such , because another Man is causlesly angry with me for doing of it . 2. They that pretend , that this fear of offending , that is , displeasing their Weak Brethren , hinders their complyance with the Church , ought seriously to examine themselves , whether it is not really only the care of their credit and reputation with that Party , or else the securing of some worldly interest , that keeps them from Conformity . 3. If to displease our Weak Brethren were the sinful offending him condemn'd by St. Paul ; it wou'd prove an intolerable yoke upon Mens Consciences , and beget such endless perplexities , that we shou'd not be able to do any thing , tho' never so indifferent , with a well-assur'd mind ; since one or other will in this sense be scandaliz'd at it . We shall anger some by doing , others by forbearing : and since those , who call themselves weak , are divided into several factions , each condemning all the other ; 't is impossible for us to comply with any one of them , but we shall thereby displease all the rest . 4. If we do nothing which may displease our Weak Brethren ; we do submit our Judgments and Consciences to the conduct of the most ignorant and injudicious Christians : and yield them that authority over us , which we deny to our lawful Superiours . And 't is strange , that those who think their Christian Liberty so much violated by the determinations of their Superiours about indifferent matters , shou'd yet suffer themselves to be thus ty'd up by the passions of their Weak Brethren . Whatever condescension may be due to the Weak , yet 't was never intended they shou'd Govern the Wiser : and who can Govern more absolutely than those , whom none must displease ? Since then Scandalizing or giving offence do's not signify doing something which another takes ill , I design to shew what is the true meaning of it in Scripture . The Greek word which we translate Scandal or Offence , signifies either a Trap or Snare , or else more commonly something laid in the way of another , which occasions his stumbling or falling , by which he is bruis'd and hurt . And so , whatever it was that hindred Men from becoming Christ's Disciples , or made them entertain unworthy thoughts of their profession , or discourag'd them in it , or tempted them to forsake it , is call'd a Scandal or Offence . It is sometimes rendred an occasion to fall , Rom. 14.13 . occasion of stumbling , 1 Joh. 2.10 . a stumbling block , Rev. 2.14 . or a thing that doth offend , Matth. 13.41 . in all which places there is the same original word . Hence to Offend or Scandalize any one , as 't is commonly us'd in the (a) New Testament , is to do something which tends to fright him from Christianity , to make him think hardly of it , or is apt to make him Repent of his Conversion . So that in the most general sense , to Scandalize or Offend any one , is to give occasion to his sin , and consequently his Ruin and undoing ; and this I suppose will be granted by all , that do not receive their opinions from the mere sound of words . Hence I observe Four things . 1. The better Men are , the harder 't is to Scandalize them . Those are not such Godly Persons , as they wou'd be thought , who are so ready at all turns to be Offended . For how can they excel others in knowledge or goodness , who are so easily drawn or tempted to sin ? 2. That Man , that saies , he shall be Scandaliz'd at what another Man do's , speaks falsely . For it is as much as to say , that he shall be led into sin ignorantly : whereas his saying so confutes his ignorance ; for if he knows it to be a sin , he commits it wilfully . 3. Since Offending or scandalizing signifies tempting to sin , there can be no fear of Offending any one by Conforming to the Church ; because there is nothing us'd in it , but what may be comply'd with without sin . For the Man that fears giving Offence to the Weak , is suppos'd to be satisfy'd himself , that Conformity is lawful : and how then shou'd he fear that his example will tempt others to sin in doing an innocent action ? If it be said , that tho' what I do is lawful , yet it may give occasion to others to do something else that is unlawful , and so I may become truly guilty of giving Offence ; I answer , that we are accountable only for the Natural tendencies of our actions , and not for such consequences , as wicked or silly Men may draw from them ; for at that rate a Man cou'd not speak or do any thing without the guilt of giving Scandal . If it be said , that tho' I am satisfy'd my self , yet I may by my example tempt others that are not satisfy'd , or that think Conformity to be sinful , to follow me with a doubting or gainsaying Conscience ; I answer , 1. that 't is as unlawful to go to separate Meetings against one's Conscience , as to Conform against one's Conscience : and the Man ought to fear , lest he draw some to separate Meetings against their Conscience ; as well as he fears the drawing of others to Church against their Conscience . The influence of his example is the same in both instances , and the danger of Scandal is equal ; and therefore his own persuasion must determine his practice . 2. A Man that is satisfy'd himself , ought to endeavour to satisfy others , especially those whom he formerly persuaded to separation by his example ; and when he has done thus , he has done what lies in his power to prevent the ill effect , and shall not be farther answerable for the consequences of what he doth . 4. Since Scandalizing is leading into sin , we may Scandalize others as soon by complying with them , as by thwarting their humour . St. Paul , who circumcis'd Timothy , Acts 16.3 . in favour of the Weak Jews , lest they shou'd have forsaken the Faith ; refus'd to circumcise Titus , Gal. 2.3 . ( tho' he angred the Jews by it ) lest they shou'd think the Jewish Law still in force . And this he did , because the condition of the Persons was different . If he had pleas'd them , he had truly Scandaliz'd them , by hardening them in their folly and ignorance . Mr. Baxter saies ( in his Cure of Church-Divisions ) Many a time I have the rather gone to the Common-Prayers of the public Assemblies , for fear of being a Scandal to those same men , that call'd the going to them a Scandal ; that is , for fear of hardening them in a sinful Separation and Error . Because I knew , that was not Scandal which they call'd Scandal ; that is , displeasing them , and crossing their Opinions ; but hardening them in an Error or other Sin , is true Scandalizing . Vnderstand this , or you will displease God under pretence of avoiding Scandal , p. 135. This surely ought to be well consider'd of by a sort of Men amongst us , who shall go to Church in the Morning , and to a Conventicle in the Afternoon ; who halt between both , and wou'd fain displease neither side , but indeed give real Offence to both . From all this , I think , it is very plain , that he , who is satisfy'd in his own mind of the lawfulness of Conformity , but is afraid of giving Offence by it , if he be true to his Principle , ought to hasten the faster to his Parish-Church , that he may not offend those very Dissenters , of whom he wou'd seem to be so tender . III. In the last place I am to inquire how far , and in what instances we are bound to consider the Weakness of our Brethren . In answer to this I shall now suppose , notwithstanding all I have already said , that the Dissenters are truly weak Persons , and that there may be some danger of their being , thro' their own fault , Offended by our Conformity ; yet taking this for granted , I shall plainly shew , that he who is in his own mind convinced of the lawfulness of Conformity , ought not to forbear it for fear of giving such Offence to his Weak Brethren . For , First , Nothing that is sinful may be done to avoid others being Scandaliz'd . We must not do evil , that good may come , Rom. 3.8 . We must not commit the least sin our selves , to prevent the greatest sin in another . The very best things may be perverted , and Christ himself is said to be set for the fall of many , Luke 2.24 . but this do's not cancel our obligations to obey God's Laws . If offence be taken at my doing any duty , those only that are offended are chargeable with it . Since those who fear giving Offence , do themselves think Conformity lawful ; and since Conformity is injoin'd ; and since nothing is more plain from Scripture , than that we must obey our Superiours in all lawful things ; therefore 't is evident that we must not omit the duty of Conforming for fear of giving Offence . But 't is Objected , that those Precepts which contain only rituals , are to give place to those which concern the welfare of Mens Bodies , and much more to those which concern the welfare of their Souls : so that when both together cannot be observ'd , we must break the former to observe the latter . God will have mercy , and not sacrifice . Now if sacrifices prescrib'd by God himself , must give place to Acts of Mercy , much more must Human Inventions yeild to them . To this I answer , that the commands of our Superiours do not bind us either in a case of absolute necessity , or when they plainly hinder any moral duty to God or our Neighbour : but this is only when the necessity is urgent and extreme , and the sin we must otherwise commit , evident and certain ; and at last our obedience is dispensed withal only for that one time . We may be absent from Church to save the life of our Neighbour , or to quench the firing of his house : but 't wou'd be a pitiful pretence for the constant neglect of our public Prayers , because in the mean time our Neighbours house may be fired , or his life invaded , and so he may stand in need of our help . Tho' this argument may serve to excuse the omission of something commanded by lawful Authority , in extraordinary cases which very rarely happen : yet to be sure it will not help those , who live in open disobedience to the Laws , only because they are loth to offend those who are not satisfy'd with what is appointed . But , say they , Scandal is Spiritual Murther : and if we must obey Authority , tho' Scandal follow ; then , when Authority commands , we may murther the Soul of our Brother , and destroy him by our meats , for whom Christ dy'd . But I answer , that wearing a Surplice , Kneeling at the Sacrament , &c. will not make Men forsake Christianity ; which I have prov'd , is the only proper Scandalizing our Brother , which St. Paul charges with the guilt of Soul-murther . Nay , this argument concludes as strongly against obedience to any other command of God , if a Brother be offended at it ; as it do's against submission to Superiours in things lawful . For 't is not only the Law of Man , but the Law of God also , that is broken by disobedience to Superiours . We cannot be bound to transgress a plain Law of God for fear of some evil , that may chance to happen to some others thro' their own fault : because every one is bound to have a greater care of his own , than of others Salvation ; and consequently to avoid sin in himself , than to prevent it in his Brethren . Nay , as Bishop Sanderson saies , To allow Men , under pretence that some offence may be taken thereat , to disobey Laws and Constitutions made by those that are in Authority over us , is the next way to cut the Sinews of all Authority , and to bring both Magistrates and Laws into contempt ; for what Law ever was made , or can be made so just and reasonable , but some Men or other either did , or might take offence thereat ? If it be here asked , whether any Human Authority can make that action cease to be Scandalous , which if done without any such command , had been Scandalous ; I answer , that no Authority can secure that others shall not be offended by what I do out of obedience to it : but then it frees me from blame , by making that my duty , which if I had otherwise done , might have been uncharitable . If it be said , that avoiding of Scandal is a main duty of charity ; and that , if Superiours may appoint , how far I shall shew my charity towards my Brother's Soul , then an earthly Court may cross the determinations of the Court of heaven ; I answer , that here is no crossing the Determinations of God , since it is his express Will , that in all lawful things we shou'd obey our Governours ; and he who has made this our Duty , will not lay to our charge the Mischiefs , that may sometimes without our fault , thro' the folly and peevishness of Men , follow from it . And certainly it is as equal and reasonable , that our Superiours shou'd appoint how far we shall exercise our Charity towards our Brethren ; as it is , that the mistake and prejudice of any private Christians shou'd set Bounds to their Power and Authority ; or that every ignorant and froward Brother shou'd determine , how far we shall be obedient to those whom God has set over us . But farther , duties of justice are of stricter obligation than duties of Charity . Now obedience to Superiours is a debt ; and we injure them , if we do not pay it : but avoiding Scandal is a duty of charity ; which indeed we are obliged to , as far as we can , but not till we have given to every one his due . It is therefore , saies Bishop Sanderson , no more lawful for me to disobey the lawful command of a Superiour , to prevent thereby the Offence of one or a few Brethren ; than it is lawful for me to do one Man wrong , to do another Man a courtesy withal ; or than it is lawful for me to rob the Exchequer to Relieve an Hospital . If it be reply'd , that tho' the care of not giving Offence be in respect of our Brother but a debt of Charity , yet in regard of God it is a legal debt , since he may , and do's require it as due , and we do him wrong if we disobey him ; I grant indeed , that we are requir'd both to be obedient to Superiours , and to be Charitable to our Brother : but then I say , this is not the Charity which God requires , when I give what is none of my own . A servant must be Charitable to the Poor according to his ability : but he must not rob his Master to Relieve them . Our Superiours only must consider the danger of Scandal : but we must consider the duty we owe them ; this being a matter wherein we cannot shew our charity without violating the right of our Superiours . Thus then it is plain , that they are things merely indifferent , not only in their own nature , but also in respect to us , in the use of which we are obliged to consider the Weakness of our Brethren . What is our duty , must be done , tho' Scandal follow it : but in matters , wherein our practice is not determin'd by any command , we ought so to exercise our Liberty , as to avoid ( if possible ) giving any Offence . 'T is an undoubted part of Christian Charity , to endeavour by admonition , instruction , good example , and by the forbearance of things lawful , at which we foresee our Neighbour out of weakness will be apt to be Scandaliz'd , to prevent his falling into any sin or mischief . After this manner do we profess our selves ready to do or forbear any thing in our own power , to gain Dissenters to the Church : but we must not omit our duty for it . I shall only add , that this very Rule of yielding to our Brother in things indifferent , ought to have some restrictions ; but I think there are no unalterable Rules to be laid down in this affair . For it being an exercise of Charity , must be determin'd by the measure of Prudence according to Circumstances : and we may as well go about to give certain Rules for Men's Charity in other Cases , and fix the proportion which every Man ought to give of his Estate towards the Relief of the Poor ; as positively to tell how far a Man must deny himself in the use of indifferent things , and forego his own Liberty for the sake of his Brother . This whole matter ( saies Dr. Hammond , disc . of Scand . ) is to be referr'd to the Christian's Pious Discretion or Prudence ; it being free to him either to abstain , or not to abstain , from any indifferent action ( remaining such ) according as that Piety and that Prudence shall represent it to be most Charitable and Beneficial to other Mens Souls . Secondly , To avoid a less Scandal being taken by a few , we must not give a greater Offence , and of vastly more pernicious consequence , to a much bigger number of Persons . And if this matter were rightly consider'd ; we shou'd soon f●●d our selves much more obliged , upon this account of Scandal , to join with our Church , than to s●parate from it . For , 1. Our separation hardens other Dissenters in their persuasion of the unlawfulness of Conformity . For they will think we separate upon the same reason with themselves ; and this is true Scandalizing them , or Confirming them in an evil cause . 2. Whatever Sect we join with , we Offend all the other Parties ; who sometimes speak as hardly of one another , as of the Conformists . 3. Hereby great Offence is given to the Conformists . For this separation is a public condemning of the Church , and is apt to breed Scruples , distast and prejudices , in the well-meaning , but least-knowing Members of it . 4. Scandal is thereby given to Superiours , by bringing their Laws and Authority into contempt . And if it be so sinful to Offend a little one ; what shall we think of Offending a Prince , a Parliament , & c ! No Scandal taken at an indifferent thing can be so great , as both the sin and Scandal of confusion , and contempt of Authority . 5. Hereby Scandal is given to the Papists , who are harden'd in their own way , because they only have Peace and Unity ; and this is a mighty temptation to many wavering Christians to turn Papists . The Papists alwaies hit us in the Teeth with our Divisions : whereas by our hearty Uniting with the Church of England , we may certainly wrest this Weapon out of their hands . 6. Separation is a Scandal to Religion in general . It prejudices Men against it as an uncertain thing , and matter of endless dispute ; when they see what dangerous Quarrels commence from our Religious differences : and all the disorders they have caus'd , shall by some be charged upon Christianity it self . Thus our causeless separations open a wide door to Atheism , and all kind of Profaness and Irreligion . The CONCLUSION , Containing an earnest Persuasive to Communion with the Establish'd Church of England . AND now , having shewn the Necessity of Maintaining constant Communion with the Church of England , and answer'd those pleas , by which the Dissenters endeavour to excuse their Separation from her ; nothing remains , but that I add an earnest Persuasive to the practice of that , which I have prov'd to be a Christian Duty . I beseech you therefore with all the Earnestness that becomes a Matter of so great Importance , and with all the Kindness and Tenderness that becomes a Christian , to suffer the Word of Exhortation , & duly consider what I offer to you . I have shewn you in the first Chap. of this Discourse , that Nothing but sinful Terms of Communion can justify a Separation ; and therefore you must charge our Church with sinful terms of Communion , or else you cannot possibly defend your practice . Suppose that there were some things in our Constitution , that might be contriv'd better ; yet every defect or suppos'd Corruption in a Church is not warrant enough to tear the Church in pieces . The question is not , Whether there be any thing in our Constitution , which a Man cou'd wish to be alter'd : but whether any thing unlawful be appointed , which will make an alteration not only desirable , but necessary ; & Whether you are bound to withdraw , till such Alteration be made . We separate from the Church of Rome , because She has corrupted the Main Principles of Religion , and requires her Members to join in these Corruptions : but this Charge cannot be fasten'd upon the Church of England , and therefore Separation from her must be unlawful . Mr. Ca●●●● (a) saies , that Wherever the Word of God is duly preach'd , and reverently attended to , and the true use of the Sacraments kept up , there is the plain appearance of a true Church , whose Authority no Man may safely despise , or reject it's Admonitions , or resist it's Counsels , or set at nought it's Discipline ; much less separate from it , and violate it's Vnity . For that our Lord has so great regard to the Communion of his Church , that he accounts him an Apostate from his Religion , who obstinately separates from any Christian Society , which keeps up the true Ministry of the Word and Sacraments ; that such a separation is a denyal of God and Christ ; and that it is a dangerous and pernicious Temptation , so much as to think of separating from such a Church , the Communion whereof is never to be rejected , so long as it continues in the true Vse of the Word and Sacraments . This is as plain and full a Determination of the Case , as if he had particularly design'd it against your own practice . Nay , the Ministers of New-England tell you , that To separate from a Church for some Evil only conceiv'd , or indeed in the Church , which might and shou'd be tolerated , and heal'd with a Spirit of Meekness , and of which the Church is not yet convinced , tho' perhaps your self be ; for this or the like Reasons to withdraw from public Communion in Word , Seals or Censures , is unlawful and sinful . If you say , that the Governours may as well come down to you , by forbearing what you dislike , as you come up to the law , by doing what it requires ; I beseech you to consider , Whether our Case will bear this Wantonness , and Whether such Expressions be consistent with your Duty . I do not think it hard , I confess , to make out the prudence of their Determinations : but I think it hard , that a Public Rule shou'd not be thought Reason enough to justify things of this sort , and to oblige the People to Complyance without more ado . Certainly there is no prospect of Union , till Men learn Humility and Modesty , and are contented to be Govern'd . What is the Duty of Superiours in our Case , I cannot determine : but sure I am , that a Change ( tho' in things perfectly indifferent ) is no indifferent thing ; and 't is infinite odds , but if once they begin to change without necessity , there will never be an end of changing . But farther , I desire you to consider , that the most eminent even of your own Writers , do flatly condemn your Separation from the Church of England . For they acknowledge her to be a true Church , and (b) hold , that You are not to separate farther from a true Church , than the things you separate for , are unlawful , or conceiv'd so to be ; that is , they hold that you ought to go as far as you can , and do what you lawfully may , towards Communion with it . They (c) hold also , that You are not to separate from a Church for unlawful things , if the things accounted unlawful , are not of so heinous a Nature as to unchurch a Church , or are not impos'd as necessary Terms of Communion . Nay they (d) produce several arguments to prove , that Defects in Worship , if not essential , are no just reason for withdrawing from it . 1. Because to break of Communion for such Defects , wou'd be to look after a greater Perfection , than this present state will admit of . 2. Our Saviour and his Apostles did not separate from defective Churches . 3. Christ doth still hold Communion with defective Churches , and so ought we . 4. To separate from such defective Churches , wou'd destroy all Communion . Nor , 5. is it at all Warranted in scripture . Nor , 6. is it necessary , because a Person may communicate in the Worship without partaking in those Corruptions . Nay , 7. they urge that 't is a duty to join with a defective Worship , where we can have no better . And as for our Injunctions in particular , they (e) own them to be tolerable , and what no Church is without , more or less ; that they are not sufficient to hinder Communion ; and that they are but few . Nay farther , several of the old Non-Conformists zealously oppos'd Separation from the Church of England , and join'd with it to their dying Day , tho' they cou'd not conform as Ministers : and several of the Modern Non-Conformists have written for Communion with it , and have in print (f) declar'd it to be their Duty and Practice . But besides the Sentiments of your own Teachers , there is greater Authority to be urged against you . For in those things , wherein you differ from us , you are condemn'd by the Practice of the Whole Catholic Church for fifteen hundred Years together ; and surely this Consideration ought to prevail with Modest and Peaceable Men. This might afford a large field for Discourse : but I shall only hint at a few Particulars . 1. We desire you to produce an Instance of any setled Church , that was without Episcopacy , till Calvin's time . The greatest Opposers of Episcopacy have been forced to grant , that it obtain'd in the Church within a few Years after the Apostolic age ; and we are sure we can carry it higher , even to the Apostles themselves . There are but two Passages , and both of them not till the latter end of the fourth Century , that may seem to question Episcopal Authority . That of (g) St. Jerom , when improv'd to the utmost that it is capable of , only intimates Episcopacy not to be of Apostolical Institution . And very clear it is to those that are acquainted with St. Jerom's Writings , that he often wrote in hast , and did not always weigh things at the Beam , and forgot at one time what he had said at another ; that many Expressions fell from him in the heat of Disputation , according to the warmth and eagerness of his Temper ; and that he was particularly chased into this Assertion by the fierce opposition of the Deacons at Rome , who began to Usurp upon , and overtop the Presbyters ; which tempted him to magnify and extol their Place and Dignity , as anciently equal to the Episcopal Office , and as containing in it the common Rights and Privileges of Priesthood . For at other times , when he wrote with cooler thoughts about him , he does plainly and frequently enough assert the Authority of Bishops over Presbyters ; and did himself constantly live in Communion with , and Subjection to Bishops . The other passage is that of Aerius , who held indeed that a Bishop and a Presbyter differ'd nothing in Order , Dignity , or Power . But he was led into this Error merely thro' Envy and Emulation , being vext to see that his Companion Eustatbius had gotten the Bishoprick of Sebastia , which himself had aim'd at . This made him start aside , and talk extravagantly : but the Church immediately branded him for an Heretic , and drove him and his Followers out of all Churches , and from all Cities and Villages . And Epiphanius , who was his Cotemporary , represents him as very little better than a Mad-man . 2. We desire you to name any Church , that did not constantly use Forms of Prayer in public Worship ; but of this I have discours'd at large in the third Chapter . 3. Shew us any Church , that did not always observe festivals in Commemoration of Christ and his Saints . 4. Name any one Church since the Apostles times , that had not it's Rites and Ceremonies , as many ( if not more ) in Number , and as liable to Exception , as those that we use . Nay , there are few things ( if any at all ) requir'd by us , which were not in use in the best Ages of Christianity . Nay farther , I could easily (h) shew , that most ( if not all ) the Usages of our Church , are either practis'd in foreign Churches , or at least allow'd of by the most Eminent and Learned Divines of the Reformation . Consider also , that Separation is the ready way to bring in Popery , as Mr. Baxter (i) has prov'd . The Church of England is the great Bulwark against Popery , and therefore the Papists have us'd all possible Means to destroy it , and particularly by Divisions . They have attempted to pull it down by pretended Protestant hands ; and have made use of you to bring about their own designs . In order hereunto they have upon all Occasions strenuously promoted the Separation , and mixt themselves with you ; they have put on every Shape , that they might the better follow the Common Outery against the Church as Popish and Antichristian ; spurring you on to call for a more pure and spiritual Way of Worship , and to clamour for Liberty and Toleration ; as foreseeing , that when they had subverted all Order , and beaten you out of all sober Principles , you must be necessitated at last to center in the Communion of the Romish Church . This trade they began almost in the very infancy of the Reformation ; as appears by the (k) stories of Comin and Heath : and no doubt they held on the same in succeeding Times ; as appears ( besides all other Instances ) by (l) Bellarini's Letter concerning the best Way of managing the Popish Interest in England upon the Restoration of King Charles the II. For therein it was advis'd to foment Fears and Jealousies of the King and Bishops ; to asperse the Bishops and Ministers of the Church of England , and to represent it's Doctrine and Worship as coming too near the Church of Rome ; to second the factious in promoting an Indulgence , and to endeavour , that the Trade and Treasure of the Nation might be engross'd between themselves and other discontented Parties . We know how restless and industrious the Romish Faction has ever been ; and the only visible security we have against the prevailing of it , lies in the firm Union of Protestants . And therefore I conjure you by all the kindness , which you pretend for the Protestant Religion , heartily to join in Communion with us . For the Common Enemy waits all Opportunities , and stands ready to enter at those breaches , which you are Making . You might condemn the Rashness of your own Counsels , and lament it , it may be , when it wou'd be too late ; if you shou'd see Popery erected upon the ruins of that Church , which you your selves had overthrown . It wou'd be a sad addition to your Miseries , if the Guilt and Shame of them too might be laid to your charge . With what remorse wou'd you reflect upon it , ( when the heat of your Passion was over ) if the Protestant Profession shou'd be farther endanger'd , and the Agents of Rome get greater advantages daily by those Distractions , which have been secretly managed by them , but openly carried on and maintain'd by your selves ? With what face wou'd you look , to see the Papists , not only triumphing over you , but mocking and deriding you , for being so far impos'd upon by their Cunning , as to be made the immediate instruments of your own Ruin ? Therefore I beseech you not to act , as if you were prosecuting the Designs of the Conclave ; and proceed just as if you were govern'd by the Decrees of the pretended Infallible Chair . You may be asham'd to look so much like Tools in the hands of the Jesuits ; when you suffer your selves to be guided by those Measures which they had taken , and talk and do as they wou'd have you , as if you were immediately inspir'd from Rome . To these arguments I must add another , which I hope will prevail with you ; viz. I cannot see , how you can avoid being self-condemn'd , if you continue in your Separation . For certain it is , that most of you have been at our Churches , and receiv'd the Sacrament there ; and I am not willing to think , that you acted against your Consciences , or did it merely to secure a gainful Office , or a place of Trust , or to escape the Lash and Penalty of the Law. These are Ends so very Vile and Sordid ; this is so horrible a Prostitution of the Holy Sacrament , the most venerable Mystery of our Religion ; so deliberate a Way of sinning , even in the most solemn act of Worship ; that I can hardly suspect any shou'd be guilty of it , but Men of Profligate and Atheistical Minds . But then , why do's not the same Principle , that brings you at one Time , bring you at another ? Why can we never have your Company , but when Punishment or Advantage prompts you to it ? We blame the Papists for dispensing with Oaths , and receiving the Sacrament to serve a turn , and to advance the Interest of their Cause : but God forbid , that so heavy a Charge shou'd ever lie at the Doors of Protestants ; and especially those who wou'd be thought most to abhor Popish practices ; and who wou'd take it ill to be accounted not to make as much , if not more , Conscience of their Waies , than other Men. Now I beseech you to reason a little ; If our Communion be sinful , why did you enter into it ? If it be lawful , why do you forsake it ? Is it not that which the commands of Authority have ty'd upon you ; which Commands you are bound to submit to , not only for Wrath , but also for Conscience sake ? Are not the Peace and Unity of the Church , things that ought greatly to sway with all Sober , Humble and Considering Christians ? If it be possible , saies the Apostle , and as much as lies in you , live peaceably with all men . And shall Peace be broken only in the Church , where it ought to be kept most intire ? And that by those who acknowledge it to be possible , and within their Power ? Are you satisfy'd in your Conscience to join in Communion with us ; and will you not do it for the sake of the Church of God ? Will you refuse to do what is lawful , and ( as the Case stands ) necessary in order to Peace ; only because Authority commands , and has made it your Duty ? Let me intreat you , as you love your dear Redeemer , to do as much for the Peace of His Church , as for a Vote or Office ; and to come to the Sacrament of his Body and Blood as Christians , and not as Politicians . Let these great truths sink into your hearts ; and consider , I beseech you , what you are doing . Be well advis'd , before you venture upon that , which makes you guilty of a sin of the blackest Nature . Be not blinded by Prejudice or Passion , nor take Opinions upon trust : but search and examine into the truth . Consciences truly tender are willing and desirous to embrace all Opportunities of Resolution ; and are ready to kiss the hand , that wou'd bring them better Information . They will not neglect , much less thrust from them , the means that might ease them of their Doubts and Scruples . But it looks very odly , that so many of you are no more concern'd to understand the true State of the Church of England , and the Nature and Reasons of her Constitutions ; that so few of you care to confer with those that are able to instruct you : but cry out , You are satisfy'd already ; nay , some of you , to my knowledge , when desir'd to propose your Scruples , in order to the Giving you Satisfaction , have plainly and absolutely refus'd to do it . There is little reason to believe , that such Persons have ever read and examin'd , what the Church of England has to say for her self . Are there not many , that not only Scruple , but rail at the Book of Common-Prayer , that yet never heard it , nor perhaps ever read it , in all their Lives ? And if this be not to speak evil of what they know not , I cannot tell what is . You generally forbear our Public Worship , upon no other ground , but because you prefer your own arbitrary way before it : whereas I may take the Confidence to affirm , that our Liturgy was made and revis'd with that Prudence and Moderation , that Care and Circumspection , that there is nothing now extant in that kind , that has been compos'd with greater Wisdom and Piety . If I shou'd compare it with the Performances in the other way ; ( not to mention the many indecent , incoherent , irreverent Expressions , to say no worse , that might be collected ) let any Extempore Prayer , made by the ablest of those , that magnify that way and despise ours , be taken in writing and publish'd to the World ; and I am confident , that one Man , without any great pains , may find more things really exceptionable in that single Prayer , in a short time ; than the several Parties of Dissenters , with all the Diligence they have hitherto us'd , have been able to discover in the whole Service of our Church , in more than an hundred Years . And yet some of you , that seek industriously for Scruples in the Common-Prayer , will readily join in Extempore Prayers without any Scruple . This is such Partiality and unequal Dealing , as cannot easily be excus'd . 'T is true , the early Prepossession of a contrary Opinion , the powerful Prejudices of Education , an implicit and unexamin'd belief of what their Guides and Leaders teach them , have a strange force upon the minds of Men ; so that in effect they no more doubt of the truth and goodness of the Cause they are engaged in , than they question the Articles of their Creed . These and the like are very dangerous and usual Mistakes , that do frequently proceed from the Prevalency of our Passions . Now the first step towards Concord in Opinion and Affections , is to dispose your Minds to a calm and teachable Temper ; to be alwaies ready to acknowledge the force of an Argument , tho' it contradict your persuasions never so much . Wherefore I do once and again intreat you , that laying aside all Pride , Partiality and Self-conceit , you wou'd not think more highly of your selves , and of your own way , than you ought to think . Truth makes the easiest entrance into Modest and Humble Minds . The Meek will he guide in judgment , the Meek will he teach his Way . The Spirit of God never rests upon the proud Man. But especially you must be very careful , that Secular Interest did not either engage you in the Separation at the beginning , or provoke you to continue in it . And there is the more reason to put you upon this Inquiry , not only because Secular Ends are very apt to mix with , and shelter themselves under the shadow of , Religion ; but because this has been an old Artifice , made use of to promote Separation . Thus the Donatists upheld their Separation , and kept their Party fast together , by trading only within themselves , and imploying none but those that wou'd be of their side ; nay and sometimes hiring Persons to be Baptiz'd into their Party , as Crispin did the People of Mappalia . And how evident the same Policy is among our modern Quakers , is too notorious to need either Proof or Observation . Whoever looks into the Nation , must needs take notice how Interests are form'd , and by what methods Parties and Factions are kept up ; how many thousands of the poorer sort of you depend upon this or that Man for your Work and Livelyhood ; how many of you depend upon others for your Trade , whom accordingly those Men can readily Command , and do produce to give Votes and increase Parties on all public Occasions ; and what little encouragement any Man finds from you , that deserts you , and comes over to the Church of England . Let me beseech you therefore impartially to examine your selves ; and to search , whether a worldly spirit be not at the bottom of your Zeal and Stifness . These , I confess , are Designs too base and sordid to be own'd above-board : but Be not deceiv'd , God is not mock'd ; Man looks to the outward Appearance , but God looks to the Heart . If you hope to gain and grow rich by your Separation ; if you are asham'd or scorn to retract your Opinions ; if you imagine you have more Light than the first Reformers , when indeed you are very ignorant ; if you cannot endure to be oppos'd in any thing ; if you murmur and repine at your Governours , when they require your Obedience , where you are unwilling to pay it ; these are Signs , that your affections are turbulent and unruly : and while you are thus dispos'd , you can never be assur'd , but that Coveteousness , Pride , and Impatience , might be the greatest Motives , that induced you to make a Separation , and the strongest Arguments that you have to maintain it . But above all things , I beseech you for the sake of your precious Souls , to consider the Heinous Nature and Guilt of Schism ; which is nothing else but the separating your selves from a true Church , without any just occasion given . I doubt , you are not sufficiently sensible , how much you oppose that Spirit of Peace and Brotherly Love , which shou'd diffuse it self thro' the whole Body of Christian People ; when you suppose every slender Pretence enough to justify your departing from us , and setting up a Church against a Church . The Old Non-Conformists charg'd the People to be as tender of Church-Division , as they were of Drunkenness , Whoredom , or any other enormous Crimes ; whereas you seem to think it a matter almost indifferent , and that you are left to your own choice to join with what Society of Christians you please . Which giddy principle , if it shou'd prevail , wou'd certainly throw us into an absolute Confusion ; and introduce all the Errours and Mischiefs , that can be imagin'd . But our Blessed Lord founded but one Universal Church ; and when he was ready to be Crucify'd for us , and pray'd not for the Apostles alone , but for them also that shou'd believe in him thro' their Word ; one of the last Petitions which he then put up , amongst diverse others to the same Purpose , was That they all may be One , as thou Father art in me , and I in thee ; that they also may be one in us , that the World may believe that thou hast sent me . 'T is plain this was to be a Visible Vnity , that might be taken notice of in the World , and so become an Inducement to move Men to embrace the Christian Faith. Peace and Amity , and a good Correspondence betwixt the several Members of which they consist , is the only Beauty , Strength and Security of all Societies ; and on the contrary , the nourishing of Animosities , and running into opposite Parties and Factions , do's mightily weaken , and by degrees almost unavoidably draw on the Ruin and Dissolution of any Community , whether Civil or Sacred . Concord and Union therefore will be as necessary for the Preservation of the Church , as of the State. It has been known by too sad an Experience , as well in ours , as other Ages , what a pernicious Influence the Intestine Broils and Quarrels among Christians have had . They have been the great stumbling-block to Jews , Turks , and Heathens , and the main hindrance of their Conversion ; they have made some among our selves to become Doubtful and Sceptical in their Religion ; they have led others into many dangerous Errors , that shake the very Foundations of our Faith ; and some they have tempted to cast off the Natural sense they had of the Deity , and embolden'd them to a profess'd Atheism . Therefore as you wou'd avoid the hardening of Men in Atheism and Infidelity , and making the Prayer of our dying Saviour ( as much as in you lies ) wholly ineffectual ; you ought to be exceeding cautious , that you do not wilfully Divide his Holy Catholic Church . You are often warn'd of this ; and how many Arguments do's St. Paul heap together to persuade you to keep the Vnity of the Spirit in the Bond of Peace ? One Body and one Spirit , even as you are call'd in one Hope of your Calling , one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism , one God and Father of all ; Eph. 4.3 , 4 , 5 , 6. And how pathetically do's the same Apostle exhort you again to the same thing , by all the mutual Endearments that Christianity affords ? If there be therefore any Consolation in Christ , if any Comfort in Love , if any Fellowship of the Spirit , if any Bowels and Mercies ; fulfil ye my Joy , that ye be like minded , having the same Love , being of one Accord , of one Mind ; Phil. 2.1 , 2. These vehement Exhortations to Peace and Concord , do strictly oblige you to hold Communion with that Church , which requires nothing but what is lawful of you . They that have the same Articles of Faith , and hope to meet in the same Heaven , thro' the Merits of the same Lord ; shou'd not be afraid to come into the same Assemblies , and join seriously in sending up the same Prayers , and participating of the same Sacraments . Besides the many strict Precepts and other strong Obligations which you have to this Duty , our Saviour dy'd , that he might gather together in One , the Children of God that were scatter'd abroad ; John 11.52 . And do you not then contradict this end of his Death , in setting those at Variance , whom he intended to Vnite ? Nay , may you not be said to Crucify the Son of God afresh , by mangling and dividing a sound and healthful part of that Body , of which he owns himself to be the Head ? If indeed our Church did require you to profess any false Doctrine , or to do any thing contrary to any Divine Command ; you were bound in such instances to withdraw from her : but since her Doctrine , Discipline and Worship are good and lawful ; you are indispensably engaged to join in Communion with her . For , as I said before , and it cannot be inculcated too often , Nothing but the Vnlawfulness of joining with us can make a Separation Lawful . Let it pity you at least to see the ghastly wounds , that are still renew'd by the continuance of our Divisions . Be persuaded to have some Compassion on a Bleeding Church , that is ready to faint , and in imminent Danger of being made a prey to her Enemies , by the unnatural Heats and Animosities of those , that shou'd Support and Defend her . Why shou'd you leave her thus Desolate and Forlorn , when her present Exigencies require your most Cordial Assistance ? If the condition of her Communion were such as God's Laws did not allow ; you might forsake her that had forsaken him : but since this cannot be Objected against her ; since she exacts no forbidden thing of you , you ought to strengthen her Hands by an unanimous Agreement . Since the Substantials of Religion are the same , let not the Circumstances of external Order and Discipline be any longer an Occasion of Difference amongst us . And so shall we bring Glory to God , a happy Peace to a Divided Church , a considerable Security to the Protestant Religion ; and probably defeat the subtil Practices of Rome , which now stands gaping after All , and hopes by our Distractions to repair the Losses she has suffer'd by the Reformation . May the Wisdom of Heaven make all wicked Purposes unsuccesful ; and the Blessed Spirit of Love heal all our Breaches , and prosper the charitable Endeavours of those that follow after PEACE . Amen . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A27392-e1650 (a) Vid. Whitlock's Memoirs , p. 116. & 189. Harm . Consent . p. 20. (b) Testim . to the Truth of J. C. p. 31. (c) Myst of Godlin . Anno 1649. Wynstanl . in Sts. Paradise . c. 5. p. 54 , &c. Whitlock's Memoirs , p. 430. Salmon's Rout. in Pref. & p. 10 , 11 , &c. Hist . of Indep . part 2. p. 153. View of the late Troubles . p. 366. (d) Whitlock's Memoirs , p. 592 , 606 , 624. Burroughs's Trumpet of the Lord. p. 2. (e) Harmon . Consent . p. 12. (f) Vid. August . Cont. Petil. Lib. 2. (g) Mr. Calamy's great dang . of Cov. Ref. p. 3. (h) Whitlock's Memoirs . p. 276. (i) Ruari Epist . par . 1. p. 415 , 416. (k) Spirit of the Hart. p. 41. (l) De Confess . adv . Hammond . c. 1. p. 97 , 98. (m) A Bright Star centring in Christ our Perfection . Printed for H. Overton , in Popes-head Alley . (n) Vid. Rob. Mentit de Salmonet , Hist . des troubles de la grand Bret. lib. 3. p. 165. Short view of the troub . p. 564. Arbit . gov . p. 28. Whitl . Mem. p. 279 , 280 , 282. Exact . Coll. p. 647. (o) ibid. p. 405. (p) Edwards's Gangr . par . 2 , p. 10. (q) B. of Heref. Narrat . to the Lds. p. 7. (r) Cromwel's Declar. Oct. 31. 1655. (ſ) Dr. Bayly's Life of Bp. Fisher . p. 260 , 261. (t) Elen. mot . Par. 2. p. 347. (u) Hist . Indep . Part 2. p. 245 , &c. (w) Cotton's Lr. Exam. p. 4 , 5. Simplicit . defence . p. 22. Min. of Lond. Test . p. 18. (u) Vid. Ordin . Feb. 4. 1646. Min. Testim . p. 31. Notes for div A27392-e4940 (a) Bayly's Dissuasive , c. 2. p. 21. Corbet's Discourse of the Religion of England , p. 33. Non-Conformists no Schismatics , p. 13. See Ball 's Friendly Trial , c. 13. p. 306. Letter of Ministers in Old England to Ministers in New England , p. 24. (b) A Grave and Sober Confut. p. 1. &c. p. 57. (c) Jerubbaal , or the Pleader impleaded , p. 18. & 27. (d) Concerning her Doctrin , See the Opinion of the Presbyt . in Corbet's Discourse . §. 21. p. 43. Baxter's 5 Disp . Pref , p. 6. of the Independents in the Peace Offering , p. 12. See also Baxter's Def. of his Cure , part 1. p. 64. part 2. p. 3. Wadsworth's Separ . yet no Schism , p. 60 , 62. Throughton's Apology , c. 3. p. 106. and of the Brownists in their Apol. p. 7. Anno 1604. See also Bayly's Dissuasive , c. 2. p. 20 , 33. Stillingfleet's Unreasonableness of Separ . part 1. §. 9. p. 31. for Opinions concerning her Worship , See Hildersham's Lect. 26. on Joh. p. 121. Contin . of Morn . Exercise , Serm. 4. p. 91. Throughton's Apology , p. 104. Peace Offering , p. 17. for Opinions concerning the Truth , sufficiency and ability of her Ministry , See Bradshaw's Unreasonableness of Separ . p. 16 , 27 , 37. Grave and Mod. Confut. p. 28. Apologet. Narrat . p. 6. Cotton's Infant Baptism . p. 181. for the defence of the Ordination of our Ministry , See Jus Divi. Minist . Evangel . part 2. p. 12 , 16 , 17 , 25 , &c. Jus Div. regim . Eccles . p. 264 , &c. Cawdry's Independency a great Schism , p. 116. and his defence of it , p. 35 , 37. (e) Jus div . Min. Evangel . p. 12 , &c. Brinsly's Church-Remedy , p. 41 , 42. Cawdry's Independency a great Schism , p. 60 , 89 , 132 , 172. Tombes's Theodulia , §. 15 , 16. pref . &c. 9. §. 3. Crofton's Reformation not Separation p. 10. and Bethshemesh Clouded , p. 101 , &c. Church Refor . p. 42. Corbet's account of the Principles , &c , p. 26. Throughton's Apology , p. 103. Baxter's defence of his Cure , part 2. p. 178. Cotton's way clear'd , p. 8. his Letter , p. 3. Hooker's Survey , pref . & part 1. p. 47. Goodwin on the Ephes . p. 447 , 448 , 449. (f) Grave and Mod. Confut. p. 6. Goodwin's Sion Coll. visited . Bradshaw's Unreasonableness of the Separation , p. 97. Notes for div A27392-e6900 (a) 1 Tim. 5.10 . Ambros . De Sacram. lib. 3. cap. 1. (b) Tertull . De Orat. cap. 14. (c) Buxtorf . Exere . Hist . S●c . Caen. (d) Vid. August . Epist . 118 , 119. Basil . De Sp. S. cap. 27. Ambros . De Sacram. lib. 2. cap. 7. & lib. 3. cap. 1. (e) 1 Cor. 14.26 . 2 Cor. 10.8 . 1 Tim. 1.4 . Rom. 14.19 . 1 Thess . 5.11 . Eph. 4.12 , 16. Notes for div A27392-e9050 (f) Clem. 1 Epist . ad Corinth . Chrysost . in Act. 13.2 . (g) A. Gell. Noct. Att. l. 13. c. 21. Rosin . Antiq. l. 3. c. 33. (h) Plin. l. 28. c. 2. (i) Liv , l. 4. (k) Allat . de Lit. Sti. Jac. (l) Concil . Trull . c. 32. (m) De Orat. Dom. (n) Justin . Apol. 2. Ignat. Epist . ad Magn. (o) Orig. cont . Celf. l. 6. (p) Cypr. de Laps . serm . 14. (q) Vid. Ovid. de fast . lib. 6. Stat. lib. 4. Senec. in Oedip. act . 2. scen . 2. (r) De Spir. S. c. 27. & 29. (ſ) Paedag. (t) Theod. Hist . l. 2. c. 24. (u) Euseb . Hist . lib. 5. (w) ibid. Hist . lib. 7. (x) Lucian . Philop. (y) Constitut . Apost . l. 2. cap. 5. (z) Euseb . Hist . Eccles . l. 2. c. 171. (a) Soz. Hist . l. 5. c. 15. (b) Nazian . Orat. 1. p. 102. (c) Niceph . l. 13. c. 8. (d) Euseb . de Laud. Constant . (e) Id. de vit . Constant . c. 20. (f) Ibid. c. 19. (g) Ibid. c. 17. (h) Ibid. c. 18. (i) See Ball 's Trial , Pref. &c. 1 , 2 , 3 , 8. Baxter's Cure of Ch. Divis . p. 175. Owen's Work of the Spirit in Prayer ▪ p. 220.222 , 235. Norton's Answer to Apollon . c. 13. (k) Clark's Lives of 10 Divines , p. 255. (l) Bradshaw's Life in Clark's Coll. in fol. p. 67. (m) See His Doctrine of Fasting and Prayer , Anno 1633· (n) Collect. of 10 Lives , 4 to , p. 38. (o) See Ball 's Tri l. c. 2. Rogers's Tr. 223. Bryan's Dwelling with God , p. 307. Egerton's Practice of Christianity , c. 11. p. 691. Edit . 5. (p) Grave Confut . Epist . to the Reader . Contin . Morn . Exerc. p. 1006. (q) Priest , Serm. on Joh. 1.16 . (r) Theodulia , p. 221. Baxt. Cure , p. 176. Ball 's Tryal . p. 128 , 129. Grave confut . p. 12 , 13. (ſ) Annot. on Ex. 12.8 . (t) Tryal , p. 96 , 106 , 111 , 138. & p. 80. (u) Tombes's Theodulia , p. 222. (w) Ball 's Tryal , p. 108 , &c. Rogers's Treatises , p. 224. Tombes's Theod. p. 234. (x) Tryal , p. 96 , 106 , 12. (y) Resp . ad Apol. c. 13. (z) Sacril . desert . p. 102. (a) Defence , part 2. p. 65. See Ball 's Tryal , p. 131 , Rogers's Tr. p. 224. Notes for div A27392-e17480 (a) See Suicerus in the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Hammond on Matth. 19.28 . John 3.5 . Selden De Jure , lib. 2. c. 4. Vossius De Baptismo . p. 181. (b) See Irenaeus Adv. Haer. l. 2. c. 56 , 57. Tertull. Apol. and ad Scapul . Origen adv . Celsum , Camb. p. 34 , 62 , 80 , 124 , 127 , 334 , 376. Cyprian ad Donat. and ad Magn. and ad Demetrian . p. 202. Edit . Rigalt . (c) See Voss . Hist . Pelag. lib. 2. p. 2. Id. de Baptis . Disp . 13. Thes . 18. and Disp . 14. ●hes . 4. Cassand . Praef. ad Duc. Jul. p. 670. and Te●●im . vet . de Bapt. parv . p. 687. (d) See Brerewood's Enquir . c. 20.23 . Cassand . Expos . de Auctor . Consult . Bapt Inf. p. 692. Osor . l. 3. de Rebus gest . Eman. cit . a Voss . Disp . 14. de Bapt. (e) As in the Greek , Russian , and Abyssin Churches , and among the Christians of St. Thomas in the Indies . (f) De Baptism . cap. 18. (g) See Selden de Synedr . lib. 1. cap. 3. Notes for div A27392-e22250 (a) De Coron . Mil. (b) Hom. 2. in Psal . 38. (c) De Spir. S. c. 27. (d) See Cyprian . De Laps . p. 169. adv . Demet. p. 203. de Unit. p. 175. (e) Epist . 56. ad Thiber . (f) Christian Direct . Eccles . Cas . p. 113. p. 875 , 876. (g) Eccles . Pol. l. 5. p. 348. Notes for div A27392-e24370 (a) Matth. 26.26 , &c. Mark 14.22 , &c. Luke 22.19 . &c. 1 Cor. 11.23 , &c. (b) 1. At Cracow , Anno Dom. 1573. 2. Petricow or Peterkaw . 1578. 3. Wiadislaw , 1583. (c) Harmon . 4. Synods of Holl. (d) Vid. Art. 34. observat . of the French and Dutch Divines on the Harmony of Confessions , Edit . Geneva 1681. Sect. 14. p. 120. In hoc etiam ritu ( speaking of Kneeling at the Sacrament ) suam cuique Ecclesiae libertatem salvam reliquendam arbitramur . (e) See the Declaration at the end of the Communion Service in the B. of Com. Prayer . (f) Dispute against Kneeling ▪ arg 1. p. 6. ●6 . &c. (g) Hist . Eccles . l. 3. p. 29. (h) Hist . Eccles . l. 7. c. 19. (i) De Schism . Donat. l. 4. See also Albaspin . not . in Optat. (k) De Orat. c. 12. (l) De Vit. Constant . l. 4. (m) Conc. 1. Nic. c. 20. Resp . Quest . inter Opera Just . Mart. p. 468. Tertull. de Coron . Mil. c. 3. Epiphan . Expos . fid . Cath. p. 1105. Edit . Par. St. Jer. Prol. com . in Epist . ad Eph. St. Aust . Epist . 119. ad Jan. c. 15. Tertull. de Orat. c. 3. (n) See Tertull. Apol. c. 39. p. 47. St. Aust . Epist 118. Const . Apol. l. 2. c. 57. St. Chrysost . Hom. 1. in c. 2. Ep. 1. ad Tim. St. Ambros . de Sacram. l. 4. c. 5. Cave's Prim. Christ . c. 11. St. Cyril Catech. Myst . 5. St. Aust . Resp . ad Oros . Quest . 49. Tom. 4. p. 691. Basil . 1541. Euseb . Hist . Eccles . l. 6. c. 35. (o) St. Cyril . Hierosol . Mystag . Catech. 5. versus finem , Paris . Edit . p. 244. (p) 24 Hom. Ep. ad Cor. p. 538. To. 9. Paris . (p) St. Chrys . Hom. 3. in Ep. ad Ephes . in moral . p. 1151. (q) Dialog . 2. To. 4. p. 85. Paris . Edit . (r) O●at . in laud. Gorgon . p. 187. Paris . Edit . (ſ) Ambros . de Sp. Sanct. l. 3. c. 12. (t) Phil. Mornay du Plessis de Missa , l. 4. c. 7. p. 732. (u) Gillesp . p. 166 , 172. Altar . Damas . p. 801. Rutherf . Divine Right of Ch. Gov. c. 1. Qu. 5. Sect. 1.3 . (w) Gillesp . Disp . against E. Po. C●r . p. 101. Disp . of Kneel . p. 93. (x) Decret . Greg. l. 3. tit . 41. c. 10. (y) Unreasonab . of Separat . p. 15. (z) Alger . de Sacramentis . l. 2. c. 3. (a) Costor . Enchirid. p. 353. Edit . 1590. (b) Alex. Hales de Miss● , p. 2. quest . 10. p. 4. Notes for div A27392-e29710 (a) Direct . of the day and place of worship . (b) Rutherf . of Scandal , Q. 5.6 . (c) Confess . Bohem. Art. 15. (d) De Vitand . Superstitione . (e) Bez. Episcop . du Moul. Past . off . Calv. Inst . lib. 4. cap. 4. Sect. 2. & Epist . ad Reg. Pol. (f) Cont. Westph . Vol. 1. p. 55. Epist . ad Bull. (g) Eccles . Pol. Book 5.228 . Notes for div A27392-e33950 (a) Matth. 3.12 . and 13.24 , &c. Joh. 15.1 . (b) Rom. 9.6 . (c) 1 Cor. 11.20 , 21. 2 Cor. 12.20 , 21. 1 Cor. 6. Gal. 3. Rev. 3. (d) Acts 2.47 . Eph. 5.23 . and 4.4 . (e) 1 Cor. 1.12 , 13. and 3.3 . and 5.1 . and 11.18 . (f) 1 Cor. 11.28 . (g) See Vines on the Sacrament , p. 235 , 242. Platform , c. 14. §. 8. Brinsly's Arraignm . p. 37 , 38. Jenkin on Jude v. 19. Baily's Disswasive , p. 22. Sacri● . desert . p. 97. Cawdrey's Reformation promoted , p. 131. Manton on Jude , p. 496. Cotton's Holiness of Church-Members , p. 2. Burroughs's Gospel-Worship . Serm. 11. p. 242. (h) See Vines on the Sacrament , p. 31 , 32 , 44 , 242 , 246. Vindicat . of Presb. Gov. p. 134. Brinsly's Arraignm . p. 47. Firmin's Separ . Exam. p. 40. Cawdrey's Church-Re●or . p. 71. Tombes's Theod. p. 74. Hooker's Survey , Pref. A 3. Platform , c. 14. §. 8 , 9. Grave Confut. part . 3. p. 53 , 55. Burroughs's Gospel-worsh . Serm. 11. p. 236 , 237. Ball 's Tryal , c. 10. p. 191 , 250 , 211. Jean's Discourse on the Lord's Supper . Rutherford's Right of Presbyt . Blake's Vindic. p. 235. Cotton's Inf. Bapt. p. 102. Cartwright on Proverb . Edwards's Apol. Baxter's Christian Direct , p. 707. Non-conformists no Schismaticks , p. 16. Bains on the Ephes . c. 1. v. 1. p. 5. (i) See Baxter's Defence part 2. p. 27. Ball 's Tryal , p. 200. Jenkin on Jude , v. 19. Cawdrey's Church-Reformat . p. 75 , 122 , 126. Brinsly's Arraignment , p. 40 , 45 , 48. Tombes's Theodul . p. 128 , 167 , 210. Grave Confut. part 1. p. 17 , 18. & part 4. p. 57. Vines on the Sacrament , p. 219 , 226 , 333 , 246. Cartwright's Def. of the Admon . p. 98 , 99 , 106. Goodwin on the Ephes . p. 487 , 488. Blake's Vindic. c. 31. p. 236 , 238. Gillisp . Nihil respondet , p. 33. Knutton's Queries . Throughton's Apol. p. 65. Baxter's Cure , Dir. 47. p. 231. Owen's Evangel . Love , c. 3. p. 77. Brian's Dwelling with God , Sermon . 6. p. 301. Firmin's Separat . Exam. p. 28. Collins's Provocator Provocatus , p. 144 , 151. England's Remembrancer , Serm. 16. p. 454. (k) See Rubr. after the Communion . Notes for div A27392-e36560 (a) Heb. 6.1 . 2 Pet. 3.18 . Rom. 15.2 . 1 Cor. 14.3 . (b) See Hildersh . Lect. 28 , 29.54 , 58 , 66. Methermeneut . p. 71 , 72 , 74. Baxter's Cure , p. 359. his Defence , part 1. p. 85. his Farewell-Sermon . Continuat . of Morn . Exer. Serm. 4. Jenkin on Jude , v. 19. England's Remembrancer , Serm. 16. Burroughs's Irenic . c. 12 , 23. Platform , Pref. p. 7. &c. 13. Ball 's Tryal , c. 4. Brinsly's Arraignment , p. 48. Cawdry's Independ . a Schism , p. 50. Vines on the Sacrament , p. 246. Tuckney's Serm. on Acts 9.31 . Jus Div. Min. Evangel . p. 11 , 12. Letter of the Minist . in Old-Eng . to the Brethren in New-Eng . p. 13. Nye's Case of great use , p. 3 , 25. Tombes's Theodul . c. 9. §. 8. Notes for div A27392-e46630 (a) See Matth. 17.27 . and 26.31 . Mark 4.17 . and 6.3 . Joh. 6.61 . 1. Cor. 1.23 . Notes for div A27392-e48590 (a) Institut . lib. 4. sect . 10 , 11 , 12. (b) See Burroughs 's Iren. p. 184. Vind. of Presb. Gov. Brinsly's Arraignm . p. 16 , 31. Corbet 's Plea for Lay-C●m . Newcomen 's Iren. Epist . to the Read. ●all's Tryal , c. 7. Je●u●ba●l ▪ p. 28.30 . Throughton's Apol. p. 107. Robinson of the Lawful . of Hear . p. ult . (c) See Tombes 's Theod. Answer to Pref. Sect. 23. Blake's Vind. c. 31. Brinsly 's Arraignm . p. 50. Noyes 's Temple Meas . p. 78. Owen 's Evangel . Love , p. 76. Cotton on the 1 Epist . of John , p. 156. Baxter's Cure , dir . 5. Vines on the Sacram. p. 239. Corbet 's Acc. of Sep. p. 103. Jerubba●l , p. 12. (d) See Brownists Confess . art . 36. Jenkin on Jude , v. 19. Allen's Life , p. 3. Engl. Remembrancer , Serm. 4 , 14 , 16. Ball 's Tryal , p. 74 , &c. 132 , &c. 159 , &c. 308. Platform of Discipl . c. 14. sect . 8. Hildersham on John , Lect. 35 , 82. Brian 's Dwell . with God , p. 293 , 294. Bradshaw's Unreason . of Sep. p. 103 , 104. Non-Conf . no schismat . p. 15. Cawdry 's Indep . a great schism , p. 192 , 195. Owen 's Evang. Love , c. 3. Throughton 's Apol. p. 100. Vines on the Sacram. p. 242. Crofton's Hard way to Heaven , p. 36. Noyes's Temp. Meas . p. 78 , 89. Davenport's Reply , p. 281. Cotton on 1 Epist . of John. p. 156. Calamy's Godly Man 's Ark , Epist . Ded. Allen 's Godly Man's Portion , p. 122 , 127. B●ins on Ephes . 2.15 . Contin . Morn . Exer. serm . 16. Baxter's Cure , dir . 35. Def. of his Cure , part . 1. p. 47. & part . 2. p. 171. Burroughs 's Iren. c. 23. Morton 's Memorial , p. 78 , &c. Blake's Vind. c. 31. Tombes's , Theodul . answer to Pref. Sect. 25. Conf. Savoy , p. 12 , 13. Calamy's Door of Truth open'd , p. 7. Corbet's N. C. Plea , p. 6. Robinson 's Lawful . of Hear . p. 19 , 23. Nye's Case of great & pres . Use , p. 10 , 16 , 18. (e) See Lett. Min. of Old-Engl . p. 12 , 13. Bryan's Dwell . with God , p. 311. Troughton's Apol. c. 7. p. 68. Owen's Peace-Off . p. 17. Misch . of Impos . Epist . Ded. (f) Baxter's Sacril . Desert . p. 75. Mr. J. Allen's Life , p. 111. Collins's Doctr. of Schism . p. 64. Lye's Reas . Account , &c. Hickman's Bonas . Vap. p. 113. Baxter's Plea for Peace , p. 240. (g) In Epist . ad Tit. cap. 1. (h) See Durel 's View of the Goverm . &c. and Spirit 's Cassend . Anglic. p. 123 , &c. (i) Defence , p. 27 , 52. (k) Foxes and Firebrands . (l) See Stillingfleet's Unreasonableness of Separation , Pref. p. 20 , &c. 
A27045	----	The successive visibility of the church of which the Protestants are the soundest members I. defended against the opposition of Mr. William Johnson, II. proved by many arguments / by Richard Baxter ; whereunto is added 1. an account of my judgement to Mr. J. how far hereticks are or are not in the church, 2. Mr. Js. explication of the most used terms, with my queries thereupon, and his answer and my reply, 3. an appendix about successive ordination, 4. letters between me and T.S., a papist, with a narrative of the success. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1660 Approx. 525 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 219 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-05 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A27045 Wing B1418 ESTC R17445 12395122 ocm 12395122 61117 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A27045) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 61117) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 269:9) The successive visibility of the church of which the Protestants are the soundest members I. defended against the opposition of Mr. William Johnson, II. proved by many arguments / by Richard Baxter ; whereunto is added 1. an account of my judgement to Mr. J. how far hereticks are or are not in the church, 2. Mr. Js. explication of the most used terms, with my queries thereupon, and his answer and my reply, 3. an appendix about successive ordination, 4. letters between me and T.S., a papist, with a narrative of the success. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. Johnson, William, 1583-1663. [2], 28, [8], 392 p. Printed by R.W. for Nevil Simmons ... and are to be sold by Francis Tyton ..., London : 1660. "The second part," "Mr. Johnson's explication of some of the most used terms," and "A letter written to Thomas Smith, a papist," have special title pages. Errata on p. [8] at end of first part. Reproduction of original in British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Apologetic works. Dissenters, Religious -- England. 2003-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-02 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-03 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-03 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE Successive Visibility OF THE CHURCH OF Which the PROTESTANTS are the soundest Members . I. Defended against the Opposition of Mr. William Iohnson . II. Proved by many Arguments . By Richard Baxter . Whereto is added , 1. An account of my judgement to Mr. J. how far Hereticks are or are not in the Church . 2. Mr. Js. Explication of the most used terms ; with my Quere's thereupon , and his Answer , and my Reply . 3. An Appendix about successive Ordination . 4. Letters between me , and T. S. a Papist , with a Narrative of the success . LONDON , Printed by R. W. for Nevil Simmons Bookseller in Kederminster , and are to be sold by Francis Tyton at the three Daggers in Fleet-street . 1660. The Preface . Reader , IF thou meet me at the threshold with a [ What need any more against Popery then is written ? ] I must answer thee , [ No need , if all that is already written , were improved . Nor were there need of any writings , if men would not renounce their common senses . We cannot hope or pretend , by any writings , to bring any controversie to a plainer , better issue , then to resolve it by the judgement of the common senses of all the world : and yet this doth not end the controversies between us and the Papists ; whether Bread be Bread , and Wine be Wine , when they are seen , felt , tasted , &c. But some writings are usefull to awake men to the use of Reason , and to help them to improve their other helps . And , as Seneca saith , Multum egerunt qui ante nos suerunt ; sed non peregerunt : suscipiendi tamen sunt ] Though I thought I had said enough before in three or four former writings , yet the weight of the Question here debated , and the common use that 's made of it by the Papists , have perswaded me , that this also will be usefull to the Church . And I must confess the moderation and ingenuity of the Gentleman that I contend with , did not only tempt me into the undertaking at the first , but also did incline my thoughts to a publication ; there being here no stinking breath to annoy and drive away the Reader . I have learned by experience , that its only prudent , charitable , self-denying , humble men , that are fit to be engaged in controversies . We bring fire to Gun-powder , when we deal with proud malignant wretches , ( such as I have lately had to do with , ) that have souls so forsaken , and consciences so seared , as that they seem to make malicious lies , their glory and delight . Some think that the contending with such , is a needfull , though an unsavoury work : I confess , a Lyar is not to be encouraged , nor our just reputation to be prodigally cast away , or contemptuously neglected . Duo sunt necessaria , saith Augustine , Conscientia & fama : Conscientia propter Deum ; fama propter proximum . But for our selves , Gods approbation is enough ; and for others , if Duty satisfie them not , contending will not . Bacchae bacchanti si velis adversarier , Ex insana insaniorem facies ; feriet saepius , saith Plaut . If Truth make blinded men our enemies , and the performance of our duty be our greatest crime , and no purgation be left us , but by becoming erroneous or ungodly , it s not worth our labour to word it with such men . Pride and Malice hearken not to Reason : Apologies will not cure the envy of a Cain , or the pride of a Diotrephes , or the hypocrisie and persecuting fury of a Pharisee . But ( as August . ) Conscientiam malam laudantis praeconium non sanat ; ne● bonam vulnerat convitium . ] Praise healeth not an ill Conscience ; and reproach cannot wound a good one . Conscience respects a higher tribunal . Could a Calumniator be believed , it were a small thing to be judgeed by man : and Conscia mens recti famae n●e●dacia ridet . But when they make themselves the objects of the common compassion or derision , they spare me the labour of a confutation : It s enough to say with the Philosopher , [ Ego sic vivam , ut nemo illi credat ] [ I will so live , that no man shall believe him ; ] when they themselves will so lie that no man ( or next to none ) shall believe them . It s a far more necessary and profitable employment , to oppose our sins then our accusers ; and to see that we are blameless , then that we are so reputed : and to escape the temptations of Satan , rather then the calumnies of his instruments . It s better this wind offend our ears , then guilt should wound our hearts . Penalty is heavier then injurious persecution , because of its relation to guilt : but culpability it self is worse then both . Poena potest demi , culpa perennis erit . Mors faciet certe , ne sim , cum venerit , exul . Ne non peccarem , mors quoque non faciet . And even when God hath fully pardoned us , Litura tamen extat . A soul that knows the evil of sin , and seeth by faith the dreadfull Majesty , and the judgement to which he must stand or fall , is taken up with greater cares , then the defence of his reputation with men ; except as Gods honour , or the good of souls may be concerned in it . Another thing that encouraged me to this engagement was , that my Antagonist seemed exceeding desirous of a close syllogistical way of arguing , which put me in hope of a speedier and better issue , then with wordy wandring Sophisters I could expect . I never liked , either the feasts that consist of sawce and ceremony with little meat ; or the bawling rooks , that will not receive a bit without a troublesome noise . Sed tacitus pasci si posset corvus , haberet Plus depis , & rixa multo minus , invidiaeque Nor the prodigal covetousness that turns the Cock when none requireth it ; and plucks up the flood-gates , and sets the mill a going when there is no grist ; & omnia vult dicere , & nihil audire . When words are too cheap , it either proves them worthless , or makes them so esteemed . The sentence of an Orator , and the very syllables of a Disputant should be short . There should be no more dishes then are necessary for the meat : nor no more straw then is necessary to sustain the grain . Frugality of speech , and sermonem habere rebus parem , do shew and make our speeches valuable . Truth would be adorned , but not covered : attended , but not crowded ; proclaimed , but not buried in an heap of words . Arguments are like money , that is valuable according to the mettal and the weight , and not according to the number of pieces , or curiosity of the stamp . And a third thing that made me the willinger to this task , was ; that the assaults of Juglers , that thought to catch me under the names and mask of Seekers , Behmenists , and such other sects , had possessed me with so much indignation and distaste , that I was glad to meet with a bare-fac't Papist , that was not ashamed of his Religion , but would profess himself to be what he is . I could never hear that the Papists won so many , and so considerable persons this threescore years , by open dealing , as I have cause to think they have won by fraud under the vizor of Se●kers , and Sectaries , within a few years past . I fear no Papists , but Protestant Papists , that come to Church , and take the oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance , as many did the engagement but a while ago ; or that wear some other vizor of dissimulation . Hypocrisie is nowhere so odious as in Religion , where men have to do with a heart searching God , and deal in matters of everlasting consequence . He hath no Religion , that thinks it his duty to lie for his Religion . For he hath no Religion that believeth not in God. And he that believeth him to be a Lover of Lies , believeth not that he is God. Verba ( inq . August . ) propterea instituta sunt , non ut per ea se invicem homines fallant , sed ut eis quisque in alterius noticiam cogitationes suas proferat . ] Verbis ergo uti ad fallaciam , non ad quod sunt instituta , peccatum est . — Longe tamen tolerabilius est , in his quae à religione fidei sejuncta sunt mentiri , quam in his , &c. — ] Truth is great , ( and the greatest advantage to a Disputant : ) and will at last prevail . Lying is a remedy that needeth a remedy ; easing for the time by palliation , but much increasing the disease . [ Magna est viis Veritatis quae contra omnium ingenia , calliditatem , solertiam , contra fictas hominum insidias , facilè se per ipsam defendit , saith Seneca . Three Questions about Popery have put the world to much dispute . Qu. 1. Whether it be the right and safe Religion ? 2. Whether it may be tolerated ? 3. Whether it be our duty to enter into reconciliation and communion with the Papist , ( though not subjection ) and on what terms ? The first I have debated in this and divers other writings , ( viz. three Disputations , called the safe Religion , a Key for Catholikes , &c. a winding-sheet for Popery , and the true Catholike , and Catholike Church discribed . ) It is one of the reproaches of humane nature , that ever it could be corrupted into so sensless , unreasonable , impious , uncharitable a thing as Popery : And one of the prodigies of misery , in the world , that any save one that Inguinis & capitis quae sunt discrimina nescit , should be fully , and seriously a Papist . But four things I find are the pillars of their Church , and propagates their corruptions : 1. One is the love of themselves and of the world in unsanctified hearts : which makes them be of the Religion of their Rulers ; and resolve to be of no Religion that shall undo them in the world : And therefore to escape reproach , and torment , and death , they will do any thing , and as they speak , will trust God with their souls , rather then men with their bodies : The meaning is , they will rather venture on the wrath of God , then of man ; and save their bodies , then their souls ; and secure this life ( as long as they can ) then life everlasting . 2. Another is Custom and Education , possessing men with blinding stupifying prejudice , together with a contempt of truth and happiness , that keepeth sluggish souls from that diligent search and tryal that is necessary to a conquest of that temptation , and to a saving entertainment of the truth . And the name and reverence of their forefathers , emboldeneth them against the name and reverence of God. Adeò à teneris assuescere multum est . Saith Seneca , Inter causas malorum est quod vivimus ad exempla , nec ratione componimur , sed consuetudine abducimur . Quod si pauci facerent , nolumus imitari ; quum plures facere caeperunt , quasi honestius fit , quia frequentius sequimur , & recti apud nos locum tenet error , ubi publicus factus est . Not what God saith , but what man doth , is made the rule of this humane apish kind of Religion . And so the Tyrant Custom ruleth them : Et gravissimum est imperium consuetudinis , Senec. Educatio & disciplina mores facit : & id sapit unusquisque quod didicit : Id. 3. Another cause is superstitious fears which the false doctrins of Purgatory , and no salvation out of their Church , &c. have cast into mens minds . The Priests rule their subjects , as one of their Captains ruled the Thracians , by making ladders , and making them believe he would climb up to Iuno to complain of them . 4. And it is not the least support of Popery , that it maketh light of heynous sins , as ●ornication , drunkenness , swearing , forswearing , lying , equivocation , &c. and provideth for them the easie remedies of confession , and such gentle pennance as the sagacious tractable Priest shall impose . But holy water will not wash out their spots . God judgeth not as the Pope or Mass Priest. Let no man deceive you with vain words : for such things ( as fornication , uncleanness , filthiness , foolish talking , &c. ) cometh the wrath of God on the children of disobedience , Eph. 5.3 , 5 , 6. For all the flatteries of indulgences , and pardons , and the name of Venial sin , yet conscience hath not pardoned all that is pardoned by the Pope . And , Prima est haec ultio , quod se Iudice nemo nocens absolvitur — And it s no great ease to have an external pardon , and neither an Eternal , nor Internal ; but Nocte dieque suum gestare in pectore testem . How many must be damned by Christ , that were pardoned by the Vice-christ . Qu. 2. And for the second Question , about the Toleration of Popery , let him that desireth it , but procure a Toleration of the Protestant Profession in Spain , Italy , Bavaria , Austria , &c. and then I undertake to give him a satisfactory answer of this question . In the mean time , I shall only say as Seneca , Nemo ex imprudentibus est qui relinqui sibi debeat : especially men that renounce all their senses and reason ▪ so far , as not to believe that bread is bread , and wine is wine , should not be left without a guardian . But in general , we must on one hand avoid inhumane cruelty ( and leave them those means that are suited to their cause : ) and on the other hand we must take heed that we betray not the Gospel and the souls of men , to the subtilty and pernitious fraud of trained deceivers . We must vigilantly and strenuously defend , though we must tenderly and sparingly offend , any further then is necessary to such defence . Qu. 3. And for the third question , about Reconciliation , I have spoken to it , and offered the terms in other writings ( especially my Key for Catholikes ) I only add now , that the Peace-makers no doubt are blessed ; and if it be possible , as much as in us lyeth , we must live peaceably with all men . But for the terms , we cannot possibly meet every corrupted party half way in their sins and errors , that we may be friends . Let us hold to the immutable sufficient Rule , indited by the Holy Ghost , and judge of all that swerve from it , according to the degree of their deviation , and unite in the ancient simplicity of Doctrine , Worship , and Government , and lay our unity only on things necessary : For whosoever deviseth any other Rule and terms of unity then these , shall never attain it , but raise up a new Sect , and encrease our wounds . I am as much for unity as ever was Cassander , Erasmus , Grotius , or any of the Reconcilers : But I am certain that to subscribe to the Trent Decrees and Creed , and to turn Papist , or Semi-Papist , or participate of any sin for peace , is not the way . Let some plead for all the Greek corruptions , and some for the Popes supremacy regulated by Canons ; and some for his meer Primacy as principium unitatis , and his Government of all the West as Patriark ; let them digladiate about a Pope and Council , as wisely as Greece and Troy did fight ten years for a beautiful whore ; I am sure that none of these are the way to the Churches Unity and Peace ( as I have opened in my description of the true Catholike Church ) Nor will their design be more successeful , that would so discordantly agree us all with the first three hundred years , as to deny the first hundred , or two hundred to be our pattern , and to make all the forms and ceremonies to be necessary to our concord , which the third or fourth Century used but as things indifferent , with diversity and mutation , and mutual forbearance . But of the terms of Catholike Vnity , I have spoken , as in the forecited papers , so in a Pacificatory Letter of the Worcestershire Ministers to Mr. J. Dury : and if God will , shall do it yet more ●ully . And of the evils in Popery , that move me to distast it , having given a Breviate in an Epistle before another mans Book , which I perceive is seen of very few , I shall here annex so much of that Epistle , as is pertinent to the present business . Readers , WEre not the Iudgements of God so dreadfull , and infatuation so lamentable in matters of everlasting consequence , and sin so odious , and the calamities of the Church , the dishonour of God , and the Damnation of Souls such deplorable things , as tolerate not a laughter in the standers by , it would seem one of the most ridiculous things in the World , that a man of seeming wisdom should be a Papist ; and that so many Princes , and learned men , with the vulgar multitude , should be able so far to renounce or intoxicate their Reason while they are awake : And a Papist would be described , to be one that sets up his understanding to be the laughing-stock of the sober rational World. There are abundance of Controversies among Physitians that concern mens lives ; and yet I have heard of none so vain , as to step forth and challenge the Authority of being the universal Decider of them , or to charge God with solly or oversight , if he have not appointed some such universal Iudge in the World , to end all Controversies in matters of such weight . But if in Physick's , Law , or any of the Sciences , the Controversies should be never so many or so great , if yet you could resolve them into sense it self , and bring all to the judgement of mens eyes , and ears , and taste , and feeling , who would not laugh or hiss at him that would still make them the matters of serious doubts ? The Papists finding that man is 〈◊〉 perfect , and knoweth but in part , and 〈◊〉 the Scripture there are some things are hard to be understood , and that Earth hath not so much Light as Heaven , imagine that hereby they have a fair advantage to plead for an universal terrestrial Iudge , and to reproach God , if he have appointed none such , and next to plead that their Pope or his approved Councils must needs have this Authority . And when they come to the Decision , they are not ashamed to see after so many hundred years pretentions , that the World is but basfled with the empty name of a Judge of Controversies , and that Difficulties are no less Difficulties still , and Controversies are nowhere so voluminous as with them . But this is a small matter with them . Their Iudge s●●ms much wiser when he is silent , then when he speaks . When he comes to a Decision , and formeth up thereby the Hodge-podge of Popery , they seem not to smile at , nor be ashamed of the Picture which they have drawn , which is , of an Harlot shewing her nakedness , and committing her lewdness in the open Assemblies , in the sight of the Sún . They openly proclaim their shame against the light of all the acknowledged Principles in the World , their own or others , and in opposition to all , or almost all that is commendable among men . The charge seems high , but ( in a few words ) take the proof . 1. They confess the Scripture to be the Word of God : and yet when we would appeal to that as the Rule of Faith and Life , or as a divine Revelation , in our Disputes , they fly off , and tell us of its obscurity , and the necessity of a Iudge . If they meet with a Hoc est corpus meum , they seem for a while to be zealous for the Scripture : But tell them that Paul in 1 Cor. 11.26 , 27 , 28. doth call it Bread after the Consecration , no less than three times in the three next Verses , and then Scripture is non-sense to them till the Pope make sense of it . It is one of their principal labours against us , to argue against the Scriptures sufficiency to this use . By no means can we prevail with them to stand to the Decision of the Scripture . 2. They excessively cry up the Church , and appeal to its Decision : and therefore we might hope , that here if anywhere , we might have some hold of them . But when it comes to the Point , they not only disown the judgement of the Church , but impudently call Christ's Spouse a Strumpet , and cut off ( in their uncharitable imagination ) two or three parts of the universal Church as Hereticks or Schismaticks . The judgement of the Churches in Armenia , Ethiopia , Egypt , Syria , the Greeks , and many more besides the Reformed Churches in the West , is against their Popes universal Vicarship or Soveraignty , and many of their Errours that depend thereon : And yet their judgement is not regarded by this Faction . And if a third or fourth part ( such as it is ) of the Universal Church , may cry up themselves as the Church to be appealed to , and condemn the far greater part , why may not a tenth or a twentieth part do the like ? Why may not the Donatists , the Novatians , or the Greeks ( much more ) do so as well as Papists ? 3. They cry up Tradition . And when we ask them , How we shall know it , and where it is to be found , they tell us , principally in the profession and practice of the present Church . And yet when two or three parts of the universal Church profess that Tradition is against the Papal ▪ Monarchy , and other Points depending on it , they cast Tradition behind their backs . 4. They cry up the Fathers : and when we bring their judgements against the substance of Popery , they sometime vilifie or accuse them as erroneous , and sometime tell us , that Fathers as well as Scripture must be no otherwise understood , than their Church expoundeth them . 5. They plead for an appeal to Councils ; and ( though we easily prove that none of them were universal , yet such as they were ) they call them all Reprobate , which were not approved by their Pope , let the number of Bishops there be never so great . And those that were approved , if they speak against them , they reject also , either with lying shifts denying the approbation , or saying , the acts are not de fide , or not conciliariter facta , or the sense must be given by their present Church , or one such contemptible shift or other . 6. At least one would think they should stand to the judgement of the Pope , which yet they will not : for shame forbids them to own the Doctrine of those Popes that were Hereticks or Infidels ( and by Councils so judged : ) And others they are forced to disown , because they contradict their Predecessors . And at Rome the Cardinals are the Pope , while he that hath the name is oft made light of . And how infallible he is judged by the French and the Venetians ; how Sixtus the fifth was valued by the Spaniards , and by Bellarmine , is commonly known . 7. But all this is nothing to their renunciation of humanity , even of the common senses and reason of the world . When the matter is brought to the Decision of their eyes , and taste , and feeling , whether Bread be Bread , and Wine be Wine ; and yet all Italy , Spain , Austria , Bravaria , &c. cannot resolve it ; yea , generally ( unless some latent Protestant ) do pass their judgement against their senses , & the senses of all sound men in the World ; & that not in a matter beyond the reach of sense ( as whether Christ be there spiritually ) but in a matter belonging to sense , if any thing belong to it , as whether Bread be Bread , &c. Kings and Nobles , Prelates and Priests , do all give their judgement , that all their senses are deceived . And is it possible for these men then to know any thing ? or any controversie between us and them to be decided ? If we say that the Sun is light , or that the Pope is a man , and Scripture legible , or that there are the Writings of Councils and Fathers extant in the World , they may as well concur in a denyal of all this , or any thing else that sense should judge of . If they tell us that Scripture requireth them to contradict all their senses in this point ; I answer , 1. Not that Scripture before mentioned , that calleth it [ Bread ] after the Consecration , thrice in the three next Verses . 2. And how know they that there is such a Scripture , if all their senses be so fallible ? If the certainty of sense be not supposed , a little learning or wit might satisfie them , that Faith can have no certainty . But is it not a most dreadful judgement of God , that Princes and Nations , Learned men , and some that in their way are conscientious , should be given over to so much inhumanity , and to make a Religion of this brutishness , ( and worse ) and to persecute those with Fire and Sword , that are not so far forsaken by God , and by their reason ? and that they should so solicitously labour the perversion of States and Kingdoms for the promoting of stupidity or stark madness ? 8. And ( if we go from their Principles to their Ends , or Wayes , we shall soon see that ) they are also against the Unity of the Church , while they pretend this as their chiefest Argugument , to draw men to their way . They set up a corrupted Faction , and condemn the far greater part of the Church ; and will have no unity with any but those of their own Faction and Subjection : and fix this as an essential part of their Religion , creating thereby an impossibility of universal concord . 9. They also contradict the Experience of many thousand Saints ; asserting that they are all void of the Love of God and saving Grace , till they become subject to the Pope of Rome ; when as the Souls of these Believers have Experience of the Love of God within them , and feel that Grace that proveth their Iustification . I wonder what kind of thing it is that is called Love or Holiness in a Papist , which Protestants and other Christians have not , and what is the difference . 10. They are most notorious Enemies to Charity , condemning most of the Christian world to Hell , for being out of their subjection . 11. They are notorious Enemies to Knowledge under pretence of Obedience and Unity , and avoiding Heresie . They celebrate their Worship in a Language not understood by the vulgar Worshippers . They hinder the People from Reading the holy Scriptures , ( which the ancient Fathers exhorted men and women to , as an ordinary thing . ) The quality of their Priests and People , testifies this . 12. They oppose the Purity of divine Worship , setting up a multitude of humane Inventions instead thereof , and idolatrously ( for no less can be said of it ) adoring a piece of conserated Bread as their God. 13. They are Opposers of Holiness , both by the foresaid enmity to Knowledge , Charity , and purity of Worship , and by many unholy Doctrines , and by deluding Souls with an outside histrionicall way of Religion , never required by the Lord , consisting in a multitude of Ceremonies , and worshipping of Angels , and the Souls of Saints , and Images , and Crosses , &c. Let experience speak how much the Life of Holiness is promoted by them . 14. They are Enemies to common Honesty , teaching the Doctrines of Equivocations and Mental Reservations , and making many hainous sins venial , and many of the most odious sins to be Duties , as killing Kings that are excommunicated by the Pope , taking Oaths with the foresaid Reservations , and breaking them , &c. For the Jesuits Doctrine , Montaltus the Jansenist , and many of the French Clergy have pretty well opened it : And the Pope himself hath lately been fain to publish a condemnation of their Apology . And yet the power and interest of the Jesuites and their followers among them , is not altogether unknown to the World. 15. They are Enemies to Civil Peace and Government , ( if there be any such in the World ) as their Doctrine and Practice of killing and deposing excommunicate Princes , breaking Oaths , &c. shews . Bellarmine that will go a middle way , gives the Pope power in ordine ad spiritualia , and indirectly , to dispose of Kingdoms , and tells us , that it is unlawfull to tolerate Heretical Kings that propagate their Heresie , ( that is , the ancient Faith. ) How well Doctor Heylin hath vindicated their Council of Laterane in this , ( whose Decrees stand as a Monument of the horrid treasonable Doctrine of the Papists ) I shall , if God will , hereafter manifest : In the mean time , let any man read the words of the Council , and Iudge . And now whether a Religion that is at such open enmity with 1. Scripture , 2. The Church , 3. Tradition , 4. Fathers , 5. Councils , 6. Some Popes , 7. The common senses and Reason of all the World , even their own , 8. Vnity of Christians , 9. Knowledge , 10. Experience of Believers , 11. Charity , 12. Purity of Worship , 13. Holiness , 14. Common Honesty , 15. and to Civil Government and Peace ( which might all easily be fully proved , though here but touched ) I say , whether such a Religion should be embraced and advanced with such diligence and violence , and mens souls laid upon it , is the controversie before us . And whether is should be tolerated ( even the propagation of it , to the damnation of the peoples souls ) is now the Question which the juggling Papists have set a foot among those that have made themselves our Rulers : and there are found men among us , that call themselves Protestants and godly , that plead for the said Toleration ; ( and consequently for the delivering up of these Nations to Popery , if not to Spanish , or other forreign Powers ) which if they effect , and after their contrary Professions , prove such Traitors to Christ , his Gospel and their posterity , as they leave the Land of their Nativity in misery , they shall leave their stinking names for a reproach and curse to future Generations ; and on such Pillars shall be written , [ This pride , self-seeking , uncharitableness , and schism hath done . ] This was written and printed under the late Usurpers . ) Postscript . Reader , THough the Papists have seemed to be the most discountenanced party under the late Usurpers , and to have no interest or power , yet I have still found , that those sped worst from men , that were most against them ; and that I never wrote any book against them , but it brought a sharper storm upon me , then any thing that I wrote against any other Sect that was more visibly in power . And yet it was not openly professed to be for my opposition to Popery , but on some other account : and though the fountain by the taste of the waters , might be known yet it self and secret conducts were all underground and undiscernable . The Jesuits that are the spring of these and greater things then these , are latent , and their motion is not seen , while we see the motions which are caused by their secret force . So that by this means its only those few inquisitive discerning persons , that can see a cause in its effect , that find them out : and those few are unable to make full proof , even of the things they know ; and thereby are prohibited from appearing openly in the cause , lest coming short in legal proof , they leave the guilty triumphing over the innocent as calumniators . For the last book that I wrote against them ( My Key for Catholikes ) the Parliament-house it self , and all the land did ring of my accusations ; and the menaces were so high , that my intended ruine was the common talk . And I know their indignation is not abated . My crime is , that their zeal to proselyte me , hath acquainted me with some of their secrets , and let me know what the Jesuits are doing , and how great a party that are masked under the name of Seekers , Familists , &c. they have in the land . I have therefore Reader , this double request to thee : First , arm thy self diligently against Popery , if thou would'st preserve thy Religion and thy soul. Whatever Sects assault thee openly , suspect and avoid the disease that is endeavouring with greatest advantages to be Epidemical . To this end , be well studied in the writings that have opened their vanity and shame : I hope , what I have written on that subject , will not be useless to them that are not at leisure to read the larger volumes . Read Dr. Challoners Credo sanctam Ecclesia● Catholicam . Peter Moulins Answer to Cottons Questions . And for larger Volumes , Vsher , Chillingworth , Field , Whittakers , especially de Pontif. Roman ▪ may be numbered with the most solid , judicious and useful : And Dr. Mouline of the Novelty of Popery now in the press , with River , and Chamier , to add no more . And if ever thou fall in company with Seekers , or Familists , that are questioning all things , and endeavouring to disparage the holy Scriptures , and the Ministry , and Church , and Ordinances , though but in a questioning way , look then to thy Religion , and suspect a Papist : Secondly , because experience hath taught me to expect that my renewed assault of Popery should raise some storm , and renew my dangers , ( though I know not which way it will come , and expect it should be upon pretence of something that is no kin to the real cause , ) let him that hath been so exceedingly beholden to the servants of Christ for prayers , have thy prayers in particular for this , that he may be satisfied in Gods approbation , and count it a small matter to be censured by man , or to suffer those soft and harmless stroaks , that the impotent arm of flesh can inflict ; and may live and dye in the Army of believers , described Heb. 11 , and 12. and be so far preserved from the contrivances of malice , as is needful to his appointed work : in which it is the top of his ambition : to be found A faithful though unworthy servant of Christ for his Church , Rich. Baxter . S●p . 3. 1660. The CONTENTS . The first Part. Mr. Johnsons Argument prosecuted , to pag. 6 My Answer . 7 to 26 Mr. Johnsons second Paper . 27 His attempt to prove the succession of the Roman Soveraignty . 49 to the end . My letter to the sender of his . 68 My Reply to the second Paper . 77 On which of us the Proof is incumbent . 87 Of the Eastern and Southern Churches . 94 , 95 , &c. Whether we are one Church with them of Rome . 107 , &c. Of our separation . 107 Whether the Armenians , Ethiopians , Syrians , &c. are excluded as Hereticks ? 113 The instance of an Appeal of John of Antioch refuted . 127 The instance of Flavianus Appeal refuted . 129 Of Leo's pretended restoring Theodoret upon Appeal . 132 Of Cyprians desire that Stephen would depose Martian Bishop of Arles . 133 A pretended Decree of the Council of Sardis examined . 135 Basils words Epist. 74. examined . 138 Chrysostoms words to Innocent . 140 A pretended Proof from the Council of Ephesus confuted . 141 Of the addresses to Pope Julius by Athanasius and the Arrians . 143 Chamiers words hereabout . 146 Of Chrysostoms case . 147 Of Theodosius and the Concil . Ephes. 152 Of the Council of Calcedon . 154 Of Pope Agapet deposing Anthymius of Constantinople . 159 Of Gregories words . 160 Of Cyril and Celestine against Nestorius . 161 Of Juvenals words . 163 Of Valentinians and Theodosius words . 164 Of Vincentius Lirinensis words . 169 Of Philip and Arcadius at Concil . Ephesus . 170 The nullity of all these pretended Proofs . 174 Whether Papists give , and Popes accept the Title of Vice-Christ , Monarch , &c. 175 to 188 Of the Contest of Councils for the Rule . 188 Mr. Johnsons work to which his cause engageth him . 191 The Contents of the second Part. Qu. WHether the Church of which the Protestants are members have been visible ever since the daies of Christ on earth ? Aff. The Church what . 197 Protestants what . 198 Of Membership , and Visibility . 201 The first Argument , to prove the successive Visibility . 204 The second Argument . 209 Papists Testimonies for the sufficiency of Scripture as the Rule . 219 Some of the Fathers of the same . 221 Where was our Church . 225 The true Catholike Church , how described by Augustine . 227 Optatus . 231 Tertullian . 232 The third Argument . 238 The fourth Argument . 241 , 242 Arguments proving the Visibility of a Church without the Papacy , since Christ. Argument first , from the Council of Calcedon . 242 Argument 2. From the silence of the Ancients in cases where the allegation of the Papal power would have been most pertinent and necessary . 244 Argument 3. From the Tradition and Testimony of the greatest part of the Church . 248 Argument 4. From the Churches without the verge of the Empire , not subject to the Pope . 249 Argument 5. From the Eastern Churches within the Empire , not subjects of the Pope . 251 Argument 6. From the full Testimony of Gre●ory the first , p. 252 , &c. defended against Bellarmine . Argument 7. From the Confession of ●●ie● Papists . 〈◊〉 Sylvius , Melchio● C●nus , Reynerius . 267 Argument 8. From Historical Testimony about the Original of Vniversal H●●dship . 269 Argument 9. The generality of Christians in the first ages , and most in the latter , free from owning the Papacy . 271 Argument 10. Most Christians in all ages ignorant of Popery . 275 Object . The Armenians , Greeks , &c. differ from Protestants : Answered . 280 Misce●●any considerable Testimonies . 288 Mr. Johnsons exception . 292 My Answer to his exception , shewing in what sense Hereticks are , or are not in the Church , applyed to the Eastern and Southern Churches . 293 , &c. Mr. Johnsons Explication of the most used terms , with my Quere's thereupon , and his Answer , and my Reply . 1. Of the Church . 311 2. Of Heresie . 324 , &c. 3. Of the Pope . 330 , &c. 4. Of Bishops . 337 5. Of Tradition . 342 Of General Councils . 345 6. Of Schism . 350 An Appendix about successive Ordination . 355 Letters between me and T. S. a Papist ; with a Narrative of the success , written by his friend . 363 ERRATA . PAge 176. l. 24. for it r. that . p. 179. l. 14. r. Freheri . p. 217. l. 26. r. necessitate . p. 271. l. 6. r. Ecclesia Romana . p. 355. l. 2. for here r. hear . Mr. Iohnsons first PAPER . THe Church of Christ , wherein only Salvation is to be had , never was nor is any other then those Assemblies of Christians who were united in communion and obedience to S. Peter in the beginning since the Ascension of Christ. And ever since to his lawful successors , the Bishops of Rome , as to their chief Pastor . Proof . Whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , acknowledges S. Peter and his lawful successors the Bishops of Rome , ever since the Ascension of Christ to have been ; and now to be by the Institution of Christ , their chief Head and Governour on earth in matters belonging to the soul next under Christ. But there is no salvation to be had out of that Congregation of Christians , which is now the true Church of Christ. Ergo , there is no salvation to be had out of that Congregation of Christians which acknowledges S. Peter and his lawful successors the Bishops of Rome ever to have been since the Ascension of Christ ; and now to be by the Institution of Christ their chief Head and Governour on earth in matters belonging to the soul next under Christ. The Minor is clear ; For all Christians agree in this , that to be saved , it is necessary to be in the true Church of Christ ; that only being his mystical Body , Spouse and Mother of the faithful , to which must belong all those who ever have been , are , or shall be saved . The Major I prove thus . Whatsoever Congregation of Christians as now the true Church of Christ , hath been alwaies visible since the time of Christ , either under persecution , or in peace and flourishing . But no Congregation of Christians hath been alwaies visible since the time of Christ , either under persecution or in peace and flourishing , save that only which acknowledges S. Peter and his lawful successors the Bishops of Rome , ever to have been since the Ascension of Christ ; and now to be by Christs Institution , their chief Head and Governour on earth , in matters belonging to the soul next under Christ. Ergo , whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , acknowledges St. Peter , and his lawful successors the Bishops of Rome , ever to have been since the Ascension of Christ ; and now to be by Christs Institution their chief Head and Governour on earth , in matters belonging to the soul , next under Christ. The Major is proved thus . Whatsoever Congregation of Christians hath alwaies had visible Pastors and People united , hath alwaies been visible , either under persecution , or in peace and flourishing . But whatsoever , Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , hath alwaies had visible Pastors and People united . Ergo , whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , hath alwaies been visible , either under persecution , or in peace and flourishing . The Major of this last Sylogism is evident , for seeing a visible Church is nothing but a visible Pastor and people united : where there have alwaies been visible Pastors and people united , there hath alwaies been a visible Church . The Minor I prove from Ephesians , cap. 4. ver . 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , &c. Where S. Paul saies , that Christ had Instituted , that there should be Pastors and Teachers in the Church for the work of the Ministry , and preserving the people under their respective charges from being carried away with every wind of doctrine , &c. which evidently shews , those Pastors must be visible , seeing the work of the Ministry , which Preaching , and Administration of Sacraments , and Governing their flocks , are all external and visible actions . And this shews likewise , that those Pastors and People must be alwaies visible , because they are to continue from Christs Ascension , untill we all meet together in the unity of faith , &c. which cannot be before the day of judgement . Neither can it be said ( as some say ) that this promise of Christ is only conditional , since to put it to be so without evident Reason , giveth scope to every one at his pleasure , to make every other promise of Christ to be conditional . And so we shall be certain of nothing that Christ hath promised , neither that shall alwaies be a visible or invisible Church , nor any Church at all ; no nor of Judgement , nor of Eternal life , or of the Resurrection of the dead , &c. for one may say with as much ground , as this is said , that some conditions were included in all those promises , which being not fulfilled , hinders the execution of them . There remains only , to prove the Minor of the second Sylogism , viz. That no Congregation of Christians hath been alwaies visible , &c. save that which acknowledges S. Peter , and his lawful successors , &c. to be their chief Head and Governour , &c. next under Christ. This Minor I prove , by obliging the answerers to nominate any Congregation of Christians , which alwaies till this present time , since Christ , hath been visible , either under persecution , or in peace and flourishing , save that only which acknowledges S. Peter , &c. ut supra . Sir , To comply with your desires of brevity , and of confining my self to half a sheet of paper ; I send you at present only one Argument , which being fully discussed , shall be followed by others God willing . To this as to all the rest of my Arguments , which may hereafter be urged : I require a Categorical and strict Sylogistical Answer in Form , by Concedo , Nego , Distinguo , Omitto , Transeat . And the particular Propositions specified , to which the Respondents apply any of them ; and no more then precisely thus , neither adding Amplifications , Reasons , Proofs , &c. of their own out of form , and that this may be done with all convenient speed . To the place of Scripture , Ephes. 4. &c. is also required a Categorical answer , to what is precisely pressed in it , without directing the discourse to other things : And what is answered otherwise , I shall not esteem an answer , but an Effugium , or declining of the difficulty . By this method exactly observed , Truth will easily and speedily be made manifest ; and your desires of Brevity will be punctually complied with . I also desire , that the Respondent or Respondents will ( as I do to this ) subscribe his , or their name or names to their answers , so often as any are by him or them returned , with the day of the month when returned . William Johnson . Decem. 9. 1658 The Answer to the first PAPER . I received yours , and writ this Answer , Ian. 4. 1658. Sir , WHoever you are , a serious debate with so sober a Disputant , is to me an exceeding acceptable employment : I shall not , I hope , give you any cause to say , that I decline any difficulties , or halk your strength , or transgress the part of a Respondent . But because , 1. You have not ( as you ought to have done ) explained the terms of your Thesis . 2. And have made your Propositions so long . 3. And have so cunningly lapped up your fallacies ; your Respondent is necessitated to be the larger in distinction and explication . And seeing you are so instant with me for strictness , you thereby oblige your self , if you will be ingenuous , to make only the learned , and not any ignorant men the Iudges of our dispute : because you know that to the unlearned a bare Nego signifieth nothing ; but when such have read your Arguments at length , they will expect as plain and large a confutation , or judge you to be in the right for speaking most . TO your Argument . 1. Your conclusion containeth not your Thesis , or Question . And so you give up your cause the first step , and make a new one . It should have contained your Question in terms , and it doth not so much as contain it in the plain sense : so much difference is there between [ Assemblies of Christians united , &c. ] and [ Congregation of Christians ] and between [ Salvation or the Church , never was in any other then those Assemblies ] and [ no Salvation out of that Congregation ] ; as I shall shew you : besides other differences which you may see . Ad Majorem . Resp. 1. By [ Congregation ] you mean , either the whole Catholike Church united in Christ , or some particular Congregation , which is but part of that whole . In the latter sense , your Subject hath a false supposition , viz. that a part is the whole , and your Minor will be false . And your [ whatsoever Congregation of Christians ] seems to distinguish that from some other excluded Congregation of Christians that is not part of the Catholike Church , which is a supposing the chief part of the Question granted you , which we deny . We know no universal Congregation of Christians but one , which containeth all particular Congregations and Christians , the univocally deserve that name . 2. Either you mean that [ this whole Congregation or true Church acknowledgeth ] the Popes Soveraignty , or else [ that some part of it doth acknowledge it . ] The former I deny , and challenge any man living to prove : If it be [ part only ] that you mean , then either [ the greater part ] or [ the lesser ] : that it is the greater , I as confidently almost deny : for it is against the common knowledge of men acquainted with the world , &c. If you mean [ the lesser part ] you shall see anon that it destroys your cause . 3. Either you speak de Ecclesia quae talis , or de Ecclesia qua talis : and mean that this [ acknowledgement ] is essential to it , or at least an inseparable property , or else that it is separable accident . The latter will do you no good : the former I deny . In summ : I grant that a small corrupt part of the Catholike Church doth now acknowledge the Pope to be Christs Vicar , ( or the Vice-christ ) ; but I deny , 1. That the whole doth so ( which is your great cause . ) 2. Or the major part . 3. Or any Congregation through all ages ( though if they had , it would do you no good . ) 4. Or that it is done by any upon just ground , but is their corruption . Ad minorem . Resp. 1. If you mean any [ part ] of the Universal Church by [ that Congregation which is now the true Church ] I deny your Minor : If [ the who le ] I grant it . 2. You say [ all Christians agree ] in it , &c. Resp. I think all Protestants , or near all , do : but Franciscus à sancta Clara hath copiously told us ( in Artic. Anglic. ) that most of your own Doctors are for the salvation of Infidels ; and then either you take Infidels for your Church members , or your Doctors for no Christians , or you play not fair play to tell us so gross an untruth , that all Christians are agreed in it . To your conclusion . Resp. 1. Either you mean that [ there is no Salvation to be had out of that Universal Church , whose part ( a minor corrupt part ) acknowledgeth the Popes Soveraignty ] or else [ that there is no Salvation to be had out of that Universal Church which wholly acknowledgeth it ] or else [ that there is no Salvation to be had out of that part of the Universal Church which acknowledgeth it . ] In the first sense I grant your conclusion ( if really you are part of the Church . ) There is no Salvation to be had out of Christs Universal Church , of which you are small corrupted part . In the second sense I told you we deny the supposition in the subject . In the third sense I deny the sequel ; non sequitur , because your Major Proposition being false de Ecclesia universali , the conclusion must be false de parte ista , as excluding the rest . But to the unskilful or unwary reader your conclusion seemeth to import , that [ the being in such a Church which acknowledgeth the Popes Soveraignty , as it is such a Church , is necessary to Salvation ] and so [ that the persons acknowledgement is necessary . ] But it is a fallacia accidentis cunningly lapt up , that is the life of your imported cause . That part of the Universal Church doth hold to the Popes Soveraignty , is per accidens ; and could you prove that the whole Church doth so ( which you are unlike to do ) I would say the like . And that your fallacy may the better appear ; I give you some examples of such like sophisms . [ Whatsoever Nation is the true Kingdom of Spain is proud and cruel against Protestants : But there is no protection there due to any that are not of that Kingdom : therefore there is no protection due to any that are not proud and cruel . ] Or [ whatsoever Nation is the true Kingdom of France acknowledgeth the Pope : but no protection is due from the Governours to any that are not of that Kingdom : therefore no protection is due to any that acknowledge not the Pope . ] Or [ what ever Nation is the Kingdom of Ireland in the daies of Queen Elizabeth , was for the Earl of Tyrone : but there was no right of Inheritance for any that were not of that Nation : therefore there was no right of Inheritance for any that was not for the Earl of Tyrone . ] Or suppose that you could have proved it of all the Church . If you had lived four hundred years after Christ , you might as well have argued thus . [ Whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , is against kneeling in Adoration on the Lords daies . But there is no Salvation to be had out of that Congregation of Christians , which is now the true Church of Christ : therefore there is no Salvation to be had out of that Congregation which is against kneeling on the Lords day . &c. ] But yet , 1. There was Salvation to be had in that Congregation without being of that opinion . 2. And there is now Salvation to be had in a Congregation that is not of that opinion , as you will confess . Or [ whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , doth hold the Canticles and the Epistle to Philemon to be Canonical Scripture , ( and so have done , &c. ) But there is no Salvation to be had out of the true Church : therefore there is no Salvation to be had out of that Congregation which holdeth the Canticles and Epistle to Philemon to be Canonical Scripture . ] But yet , 1. Salvation is to be had in that Church without holding it . 2. and its possible hereafter a Church may deny those two books , and yet you will think Salvation not thereby overthrown . This is but to shew your fallacy from a corrupt accident , and indeed but of a part of the Church , and a small part . Now to your proof of the Major . Resp. ad Major . The present matter of the Church was not visible in the last Generation , for we were not then born : but the same form of the Church was then existent in a visible Matter , and their Profession was visible or audible , though their faith it self was invisible . I will do more then you shall do , in maintaining the constant visibility of the Chruch . Ad minorem . 1. If you mean that no Congregation hath been alwaies visible [ but that Universal Church whose lesser corrupt part acknowledges ] the Popes Soveraignty , I grant it . For besides [ the whole containing all Christians as the parts ] there can be no other . If you mean [ save that part which acknowledgeth ] you contradict your self , because a part implyeth other parts . If you mean [ save that Universal Church , all whose members ( or the most ) acknowledge it ] , there is no such subject existent . 2. I distinguish of Visibility : It s one thing to be a visible Church , that is , visible in its essentials ; and another thing to be visible quoad hoc , as to some separable accident . [ The Universal Church was ever visible ; because their Profession of Christianity was so , and the persons professing : But [ the acknowledgement of the Vice-christ ] was not alwaies visible , no not in any part , much less in the whole . And if it had , it was but a separable accident ( if your disease be not incurable ) that was visible : and therefore , 1. It was not necessary to Salvation , nor a proper mark of the Church . 2. Nor can it be so for the time to come . I need to say no more to your conclusion . Your Argument is no better then this , [ whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , hath been alwaies visible since the time of Christ : But no Congregation of Christians hath been so visible , save only that which condemneth the Greeks , which hath a Colledge of Cardinals to choose the Popes , which denieth the cup to the laity , which forbiddeth the reading of Scripture in a known tongue without license , &c. Therefore whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , hath all these ] ; 1. In a corrupt part it hath . 2. But it had not alwaies . 3. And may be cured hereafter . To your proof of the Major : 1. I grant your Major . 2. Ad minorem . 1. Either you mean [ Universal Pastors ] each one , or someone having charge and Government of the [ whole Church , ] or you mean , [ unfixed Pastors having an indefinite charge of Preaching and Guiding when they come and have particular calls and opportunities ] or you mean [ the fixed Pastors of particular Churches ] In the first sense your Minor is false , the Catholike Church was never so united to any Universal Head but Christ : no one of the Apostles governed the rest & the whole Church , much less any since their time . In the second sense , I grant that the Church hath ever had Pastors since the Ascension . In the third sense , I grant that some parts or other of the Catholike Church , have ever had fixed Pastors of Congregations since the first settling of such Pastors . But any one particular Congregation may cease to have such Pastors , and may cease it self : and Rome hath been long without any true Pastors ; and therefore was then no such visible Church . 2. If by [ Congregation ] you mean not the Universal Church , but [ a part ] , or if you mean it of [ all the parts of the Universal Church ] I deny your Minor : Communities of Christians , and particular persons have been and may be without any Pastors , to whom they are united or subject . The Indians that died in the faith while Frumentius and Edesius were there preaching , before they had any Pastor , were yet Christians and saved : If a Lay-man Convert one , or a thousand , ( and you will say that he may baptize them ) and they die before they can have a Pastor , or ever hear of any to whom they owe subjection , they are nevertheless saved , as members of the Church ; And if all the Pastors in a Nation were murdered or banished , the people would not cease to be Christians and members of the Church . Much less if the Pope were dead or deposed , or a vacancy befell his seat , would all the Catholike Church be annihilated , or cease . To your Confirmation of the Major [ that a visible Church is nothing but a Visible Pastor , and people united ] I answer : 1. It s true of the universal Church , as united in Christ , the great Pastor , but not as united in a Vice-Christ or humane head . 2. It is true of a particular Political or organized Church , as united to their proper Pastors 3. But it is not true of every Community of Christians who are a part of the Universal Church . A company converted to Christ , are members of the Universal Church , ( though they never heard of a Pope at Rome ) before they are United to Pastors of their own . The Proof of the Minor from Eph. 4. I grant as aforesaid : The text proveth that Pastors the Church shall have : I disclaim the vain objection [ of Conditionality in the promise ] which you mention . But it proves not , 1. That the Church shall have an Universal Monarch or Vice-Christ , under Christ. 2. Nor that every member of the Universal Church , shall certainly be a member of a particular Church , or ever see the face of a Pastor , or be subject to him . You say next [ There remains only to prove the Minor of the second Syllogism , viz. that no Congregation of Christians hath been alwaies visible but that which acknowledges , &c. ] This is the great point which all lyeth on : The rest hath been all nothing , but a cunning shooing horn to this . Prove this , and prove all : Prove not this , and you have lost your time . You say [ The Minor I prove , by obliging the answerers to nominate any Congregation of Christians which alwaies till this present time since Christ hath been visible — save that only which acknowledges &c. ] And have I waited all this while for this ? You prove it by obliging me to prove the contrary . Ridiculous ! sed quo jure ? 1. Your undertaken form of arguing obligeth you to prove your Minor : You cannot cast your Respondent upon proving and so arguing , and doing the Opponents part . 2. And in your Postscript you presently forbid it me ; You require me to hold to a Concedo , Nego , Distingno , Omitto , Transeat ; threatning that else you will take it for an Effugium . And I pray you tell me in your next , to which of these doth the nomination or proof of such a Church as you describe belong ? Plainly , you first slip away when you should prove your Minor , and then oblige me to prove the Contrary , and then tell me , if I attempt it , you 'l take it for an Effugium . A good cause needs not such dealing as this : which me thinks you should be loth a learned man should hear of . 3. Your interest also in the Matter ( as well as your office as Opponent ) doth oblige you to the proof . For though you make a Negative of it , you may put it in other terms at your pleasure . It is your main work to prove [ that All the members of the Universal Church have in all ages held the Popes Soveraignty or Universal Head-ship . ] Or [ the whole Visible Church hath held it ] Prove this , and I will be a Papist ; you have my promise . You affirm , and you must prove . Prove a Catholike Church , at least that in the Major part was of that mind : ( though that would be nothing to prove the condemnation of the rest . ) If you are an impartial enquirer after truth , fly not when you come to the setting too . I give you this further evident reason why you cannot oblige me to what you here impose ; 1. Because you require me to prove the Visibility of a Church which held not your point of Papacy ; and so put an unreasonable task upon me , about a Negative : or else , I must prove that they held the contrary , before your opinion was started : And it is the Catholike Church that we are disputing about ; so that I must prove this Negative of the Catholike Church . 2. It is you that lay the great stress of Necessity on your Affirmative , more then we do on the Negative ; you say that no man can be saved without your Affirmative [ that the Pope is the universal Head and Governor ] But we say not that no man can be saved that holdeth not our Negative , [ that he is not the Vice-Christ ] For one that hath the plague or leprosie may live . Therefore it is you that must prove that all the Catholike Church was still of your mind . 3. And it is an Accident , and but an Accident of a small●r corrupted part of the Catholike Church that you would oblige me to prove the Negation of ; and therefore it is utterly needless to my proof of a Visible Catholike Church . For I will without it prove to you a successive Visibility of the Catholike Church , from the Visibility of its Essential or Constitutive parts ( of which your Pope is none . ) I will prove a successive visible Church that hath still professed faith in God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , and been united to the Universal Head , and had particular Pastors , some fixed , some unfixed , and held all essential to a Christian. And proving this , I have proved the Church of which I am a member . To prove that England hath been so long a Kingdom , requireth no more but to prove the two Essential parts , King and Subjects , to have so long continued united . It requireth not that I prove that if ever either h●●d , or opposed a Vice-King . This is our plain case . If a man have a botch on one of his hands ; it is not needful in order to my proving him a man heretofore , that I prove he was born and bred without it : so be it I prove that he was born a man , it sufficeth . Nor is it needfull that I prove the other hand alwaies to have been free , in order to prove it a member of the body : It sufficeth that I prove it to have been still a hand . I do therefore desire you to perform your work , and prove that [ no Congregation hath been still visible , but such as yours ] or that [ the whole Catholike Church hath ever since the ascention held a Humane Universal Governour under Christ , ] or else I shall take it as a giving up your cause as indefensible . And observe , if you shall prove only that a part of the Catholike Church still held this ( which you can never do ) then , 1. You will make the Contrary opinion as Consistent with salvation as yours . For the rest of the Catholike Church is savable . 2. And then you will allow me to turn your Argument against your self as much as it is against us ( and so cast it away . ) e. g. [ what ever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , hath been alwaies Visible : But no Congregation of Christians hath been alwaies Visible , but that which quoad partem denyeth the Popes universal Headship ; therefore whatever Congregation of Christians is the true Church , denyeth the Popes universal Headship . Well! but for all this ( supposing you will do your part ) I will fail you in nothing that 's reasonable , which I can perform . A Catholike Church in all ages that was against the Pope , in every member of it , I hope I cannot shew you ; because I hope that you are members , though corrupt . But you shall have more then a particular Congregation , or a hundred . 1. At this present , two or three parts of the Catholike Church is known to be against your Universal Monarchy . The Greeks , Armenians , Ethiopians , &c. besides the Protestants . 2. In the last age there were as many or more . 3. In the former ages till An. D. 1000. there were neer as many , or rather many more . For more be saln off the Tenduè , Nubia , and other parts then the Protestants that came in . 4. About the year 600. there were many more , incomparably ; and I think then , but at least of 400. years after Christ I never yet saw valid proof of one Papist in all the world , that is , one that was for the Popes Universal Monarchy or Vice-Christ-ship . So that most of the Catholike Church ( about three parts to one ) hath been against you to this day ; and all against you for many hundred years . Could I name but a Nation against you , I should think I had done nothing ; much less if I cited a few men in an age . 5. And all those of Ethiopia , India , &c. that are without the verge and awe of the Ancient Roman Empire , never so much as gave the Pope that Primacy of dignity , which those within the Empire gave him , when he was chief , as the Earl of Arundel is of the Earls of England that governeth none of them , and as the Lord Chancellor may be the chief judge , that hath no power in alieno foro : or as the Eldest Justice is chief in the County and on the b●nch , that ruleth not the rest . Mistake not this Primacy for Monarchy , nor the Romane Empire for the world , and you can say nothing . At present , ad hominem , I give you sufficient proof of this succession . As you use to say that the present Church best knew the Judgement of the former age , and so on to the he●d , and so Tradition beareth you out : I turn this unresistibly against you . The far greatest part of Christians in the world that now are in possession of the doctrine contrary to your Monarchy , tell us that they had it from their Fathers , and so on . And as in Councils , so with the Church Real , the Major part ( three to one ) is more to be credited then the Minor part ; especially when it is a visible self-advancement that the Minor part insisteth on . 6. And were not this enough , I might add , that your western Church it self in its Representative Body at Constance and Basil , hath determined that not the Pope but a General Council is the chief Governor under Christ ; and that this ha●h been still the judgement of the Church , and that its Heresie in whoever that hold the Contrary . 7. And no man can prove that one half or tenth part of your people ca●●ed Papists are of your opinion : For they are not called to profess it by words : and their obedience is partly forced , and partly upon other principles ; some obeying the Pope as their western Patriarch of chief dignity ; and some and most doing all for their own peace and safety : Their outward acts will prove no more . And now Sir , I have told you what Church of which we are members , hath been visible ; yea and what part of it hath opposed the Vice-Christ of Rome . This I delayed not an hour after I received yours , because you desired speed . Accordingly I crave your speedy return ; and intreat you to advise with the most learned men ( whether Jesuites or others ) of your party in London that think it worth their thoughts and time : not that I have any thoughts of being their Equal in learning , but partly because the case seemeth to me so exceeding palpable , that I think it will suffice me to supply all my defects against the ablest men on earth , or all of them together , of your way ; and principally because I would see your strength , and know the most that can be said , that I may be rectified if Jerr ( which I suspect not ) or confirmed the more if you cannot evince it , and so may be true to Gods Truth and my own soul. Rich. Baxter . Mr. Iohnsons second PAPER . Sir , IT was my happiness to have this Argument transmitted into your learned and quiet hands ; which gratefully returns as fair a measure as it received from you : that Animosities on both sides seposed , Truth may appear in its full splendour , and seat it self in the Center of both our hearts . To your first Exception . My Thesis was sufficiently made cleer to my friend , who was concerned in it ; and needed no explication in its address to the learned . To your second Exception . My Propositions were long , that my Argument ( as was required ) might be very short , and not exceed the quantity of half a sheet : which enforced me to penetrate many Syllogisms into one ; and by that means in the first not to be so precise in form , as otherwise I should have been . To your third Exception . Seeing I required nothing but Logicall form in Answering , I conceive that regard was more to be had amongst the learned to that , then to the errours of the vulgar : that whilest ignorance attends to most words , learning might attend to most reason . To your fourth Exception . My Argument contains not precisely the terms of my Thesis : because , when I was called upon to hasten my Argu●ent , I had not then at hand my Thesis . Had I put more in my Thesis , then I prove in my Argument , I had been faulty ; but proving more then my Thesis contained ( as I cleerly do ) no body hath reason to find fault with me , save my self . The reall difference betwixt Assemblies of Christians , and Congregation of Christians , and betwixt Salvation is only to be had in those Assemblies , and Salvation is not to be had out of that Congregation , I understand not : seeing all particular assemblies of true Christians , must make one Congregation . To your Answer to my first Syllogism . He who distinguishes Logically the terms of any proposition , must not apply his distinction to some one part of the term only , but to the whole term , as it stands in the proposition distinguished . Now in my proposition I affirm , that the Congregation of Christians I speak of there , is such a Congregation , that it is the true Church of Christ , that is , ( as all know ) the whole Catholike Church : and you distinguish thus , That I either mean by Congregation the whole Catholike Church , or only some part of it as , if one should say , Whatsoever Congregation of men is the Common-wealth of England , and another in answer to it should distinguish , either by Congregation of men you mean the whole Common-wealth , or some part of it , when all men know , that by the Common-wealth of England must be meant the whole Common-wealth : for no part of it is the Common-wealth of England . Again you distinguish , that some things are Essentials , or Necessaries , and others Accidents , which are acknowledged or practised in the Church . Now to apply this distinction to my Proposition , you must distinguish that which I say is acknowledged to have been ever in the Church by the Institution of Christ , either to be meant of an Essential , or an Accident ; when all the world knows that whatsoever is acknowledged to have have been ever in the Church by Christs Institution , cannot be meant of any Accidental thing , but of a necessary , unchangeable and Essential thing , in Christs true Church . If one should advance this proposition , Whatsoever Congregation is the true Church of Christ , acknowledges the Eucharist ever to have been by Christs Institution a proper Sacrament of the new Law : and another should distinguish ( as you do my proposition ) This may be meant either of an Essential or Accidental thing to Christs true Church : Seeing whatsoever is acknowledged to have been alwaies in Christs Church and instituted by Christ , cannot be acknowledged but as necessary and essential to his Church . If therefore my Major , as the terms lie expressed in it , be true , it should have been granted : if false , it should have been denyed . But no Logick allows that it should be distinguished into such different members , whereof one is expresly excluded in the very terms of the proposition . These distinctions therefore , though learned and substantial in themselves , yet were they here unseasonable , and too illogical to ground an answer in forme ( as you ground yours ) still insisting upon them in your address almost to every proposition . Hence appears first , that I used no fa●lacy at all ex Accidente : seeing my proposition could not be verified of an Accident . Secondly that all your instances of Spain , France , &c. which include Accidents , are not apposite ; because your propositions , as they lie , have no term which excludes Accidental Adjuncts , as mine hath . To the Proof of my Major . You seem to grant the Major of my second Syllogism ; not excepting any thing material against it . To my Minor. You fall again into the former distinctions , now disproved and excluded , of the meaning of Congregation , &c. in my proposition , and would have me to understand determinately either the whole Catholike Church , or some part of it , ( and so make four terms in my Syllogism : ) whereas in my Minor , Congregation of Christians is taken generically , and abstracts , as an universal , from all particulars . I say no Congregation , which is an universal negative ; and when I say , none , Saye that Congregation which acknowledges Saint Peter , &c. the term Congregation supposes for the same whole Catholike Church mentioned in my former Syllogism , but expresses it under a general term of Congregation in confuso ; as I express Homo , when I say he is Animal , a man , when I say he is a living creature , but only generically , or in confuso . Now should I have intended determinately either the whole Catholike Church , or any part of it , I should have made an inept Syllogism , which would have run thus . Whatsoever true Church of Christ is now the true Church of Christ , hath been always visible , &c. But no true Church of Christ hath been alwaies visible , save the true Church of Christ , which acknowledges Saint Peter , &c. Ergo whatsoever true Churh of Christ is now the true Church , acknowledges Saint Peter , &c. which would have been idem per idem ; for every one knows , that the true Church of Christ , is now the true Church of Christ. But speaking , as I do in abstractive and generical terms , I avoid this absurdity , and frame a true Syllogism . Now my meaning in this Minor could be no other then this , which my words express ; That the Congregation , that is , the whole Congregation acknowledges Saint Peter , &c. and is visible , &c. and not any part , great or small of it . For when I say , the Parliament of these Nations doth , or hath enacted a Statute , who would demand of me , whether I meant the whole Parliament , or some determinate part of it ? You should therefore have denyed , not thus distinguished my Minor quite against the express words of it . What you say again of Essentials and Accidents , is already refuted ; and by that also your Syllogism , brought by way of instance . For your proposition doth not say , that the Church of Rome acknowledges those things were alwaies done , and that by Christs Institution , as my proposition says she acknowledges Saint Peter and his successors . To my third Syllogism . Granting my Major , you distinguish the term Pastors in my Minor , into particular and universal , fixed and unfixed , &c. I answer , that the term Pastours ( as before Congregation ) signifies determinately no one of these , but generically and in confuse all ; and so abstracts from each of them in particular , as the word Animal abstracts from homo and brutum . Neither can I mean some parts of the Church only had Pastors ; for I say , whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church of Christ , hath alwaies had visible Pastors and People united . Now the Church is not a part but the whole Church , that is , both the whole body of the Church , and all particular Churches the parts of it . And hence is solved your argument of the Indians , of people converted by lay-men , when particular Pastors are dead , &c. For those were subjects of the chief Bishop alone , till some inferiour Pastors were sent to them . For when they were taught the Christian Doctrine , in the explication of that Article , I believe the Holy Catholike Church , they were also taught , that they being people of Christs Church , must subject themselves to their lawful Pastors , this being a part of the Christian doctrine . Heb. 13. who though absent in body , may yet be present in spirit with them , as Saint Paul saith of himself , 1 Cor. 5.3 . Your Answer to the confirmation of my Major seems strange . For I speak of visible Pastors , and you say t is true of an Invisible Pastor , that is , Christ our Saviour , who is now in heaven , invisible to men on earth . The rest is a repetition of what is immediately before answered . Ephes. 4. proves not only that some particular Churches , or parts of the whole Church , must alwaies have Pastors , but that the whole Church it self must have Pastors , and every particular Church in it ; for it speaks of that Church which is the Body of Christ ; which can be no less then the whole Church . For no particular Church alone is his mystical Body , but only a part of it . Ephes. 4. is not directly alledged to prove an universal Monarch , ( as you say ) but to prove an uninterrupted continuance of visible Pastors ; that being only affirmed in the proposition , which I prove by it . 2. This is already Answered . I stand to the judgement of any true Logitian , nay or expert Lawyer , or rational person , whether a Negative proposition be to be proved otherwise then by obliging him who denies it , to give an instance to infringe it . Should you say , no man hath right to my Benefice and Function in my parish , save my self , and another should deny what you said ; would not you , or any rational man in your case , answer him , that by denying your proposition he affirmed that some other had right to them , and to make good that affirmation was obliged to produce who that was : which till he did , you still remained the sole just possessour of your Benefice as before ; and every one will judge , that he had no reason to deny your assertion , when he brought no proof against it . This is our case . The Contradiction , which you would draw from this , against my Nego , Concedo , &c. exacted from the Respondent , and nothing else , follows not . For that prescription is to be understood , that the Respondent of himself , without scope given him by the opponent , was not to use any other forms in Answering ; But if the opponent should require that the respondent give reasons , or instances , or proofs , of what he denies , that then the Respondent is to proceed to them . And this is most ordinary in all Logicall Disputations , where strict form is observed , and known to every yong Logitian . Instances therefore demanded by the opponent , were not excluded , but only such excursions out of form , as should proceed from the respondent , with out being exacted by the opponent . You say , though I make a Negative of it , I may put it in other terms at my pleasure . But the question is not what I may do , but what I did : I required not an Answer to an Argument , which I may frame , but to that which I had then framed , which was expressed in a negative proposition . You tell me if I prove the Popes universal Supremacy , you will be a Papist : And I tell you , I have proved it by this very Argument , That either He hath that supremacy , or some other Church ; denying that he hath alwaies had it , hath been alwaies visible ; and that Church I require should be named , if any such be , and whilest you refuse to name that Church ( as here you do ) you neither answer the Argument , nor become a Papist . You say I affirm , and I must prove . I say in the proposition , about which we now speak , I affirm not , and so must not prove ; and you by denying it , must affirm , and so must prove . You prove it is not your part here to prove , because the Popes supremacy could not be denyed , before it was affirmed ; and you must be obliged to prove that denyal . I oblige you not to prove a continued visible Church formally and expresly denying it , but that it was of such a Constitution as was inconsistent with any such supremacy , or could and did subsist without it ; which is an Affirmative . You affirm , that because I say you cannot be saved if you deny that Supremacy , and you say that I may be saved though I hold it , therefore you are not bound to prove what I reprove , but I to prove my negative proposition . But this would prove as well , that a Mahumetan is not bound to prove his religion to you , but you to prove yours to him , because you say he cannot be saved being a Mahumetan ; and he says , that you may be saved being a Christian. See you not , that the obligation of proof in Logicall form depends not of the first position , or Thesis , but must be drawn from the immediate proposition , affirmative or negative , which is or ought to be proposed ? To what you say of an Accident and a corrupt part , I have already answered . To what you say of a vice-king , not being necessary to the Constitution of a kingdom , but a king and subjects only , is true , if a vice-king be not instituted by the Full power of an Absolute Authority over that kingdom , to be an ingredient into the essence of the Kingdom , in the Kings absence : But if so constituted , it will be essential ; now my proposition saith , and my Argument proves , that by the Absolute Authority of Christ , Saint Peter and his Successors were instituted Governors in Christs place of his whole visible Church ; and whatsoever Government Christ institutes of his Church , must be essential to his Church . You see now the Disparity . You insist to have me prove a Negative ; and I insist to have you prove that Affirmative , which you fall into by denying my Negative , and leave it to judgement , whose exaction is the more conform to reason , and logical form . But if I prove not here , say you , the whole Catholike Churches holding ever the Popes Supremacy , you shall take it as a giveing up my cause . I tell you again , that I have proved it by this very Argument , by force of Syllogistical form : and it is not reasonable to judge that I have given up my cause , if I prove not again , what I have already proved . Your taking upon you the part of an opponent now is , you know , out of Season ; when that is yours , mine shall be the Respondent . AT length you give fair attempt to satisfie your obligation , and to return such an instance as I demanded of you . But you are too free by much in your offer . I demand one Congregation , and you promise to produce more then an hundred . But as they abound in the number , so are they deficient in the quality which I require . I demand , that the Answerer nominate any Congregation of Christians , which alwayes till this present time since Christ hath been visible , &c. and you tell me of more then an hundred Congregations , besides that which acknowledges Saint Peter , &c. whereof not any one hath been all that designed time visible : which is as if I had demanded an Answerer to nominate any Family of Gentry , which hath successively continued ever since William the Conquerour till this present time ; and he who undertakes to satisfie my demand , should nominate more then a hundred Families , whereof not so much as one continued half that time . You nominate first all these present , the Greeks , Armenians , Ethiopians , besides the Protestants . These you begin with . Now to satisfie my demand , you must assert , that these , whom you first name , are both one Congregation , and have been visible ever since Christs time . This you do not in the pursute of your Allegations . For Numb . 2. you nominate none at all , but tell me , that in the last age there were as many or more . What were these as many or more ? were they the same which you nominated first , or others ? I required some determinate Congregation to be nominated all the while , and you tell me of as many or more , but say not of what determinate congregation they were . In your Num. 3. you tell me , in the former ages , till one thousand , there were neer as many , or rather many more . A fair account ! But in the mean time you nominate none , much less prosecute you those with whom you begun . Num. 4. You say , in the year six hundred there were many more incomparably . What many ? what more ? were they the same which you nominated in the beginning , and made one Congregation with them ? or were they quite different Congregations ? what am I the wiser by your saying many more incomparably , when you tell me not what , or who they were ? Then you say , But at least for four hundred years after Christ , I never yet saw valid proof of one Papist in all the world , that is , one that was for the Popes universal Monarchy , or vice-Christship . What then ? are there no proofs in the world , but what you have seen ? or may not many of those proofs be valid which you have seen , though you esteem them not so ? and can you think it reasonable , upon your single not-seeing , or not-judging only , to conclude absolutely , as you here do , that all have been against us for many hundred years ? In your Num. 5. You name Ethiopia and India , as having been without the limits of the Roman Empire , whom you deny to have acknowledged any supremacy of power and authority above all other Bishops . You might have done well to have cited at least one antient Author for this Assertion . Were those primitive Christians of another kind of Church-order and Government , then were those under the Roman Empire * ? When the Roman Emperors were yet Heathens , had not the Bishop of Rome the Supremacy over all other Bishops through the whole Church ? and did those Heathen Emperors give it him ? How came St. Cyprian , in time of the Heathen Empire to request Stephen the Pope to punish and depose the Bishop of Arles , as we shall see hereafter ? Had he that authority ( think you ) from an Heathen Emperour ? See now how little your Allegations are to the purpose , where you nominate any determinate Congregations to satisfie my demand . I had no reason to demand of you different congregations , of all sorts and Sects opposing the Supremacy , to have been shewn visible in all ages . I was not so ignorant , as not to know , that the Nicolaitans , Valentinians , Gnosticks , Manichees , Montanists , Arians , Donatists , Nestorians , Eutychians , Pelagians , Iconoclasts , Berengarians , Waldensians , Albigenses , Wicleffists , Hussits , Lutherans , Calvinists , &c. each following others had some kind of visibility , divided and distracted each to his own respective age , from our time to the Apostles , in joyning their heads and hands together against the Popes Supremacy . But because these could not be called one successive Congregation of Christians , being all together by the ears amongst themselves ; I should not have thought it a demand beseeming a Scholar , to have required such a visibility as this . Seeing therefore all you determinately nominate , are as much different as these ; pardon me , if I take it not for any satisfaction at all to my demand , or acquittance of your obligation . Bring me a visible succession of any one Congregation of Christians , of the same belief , profession , and communion , for the designed time , opposing that Supremacy , and you will have satisfied : but till that be done , I leave it to any equal judgement , whether my demand be satisfied or no. You answer to this , That all those , who are nominated by you , are parts of the Catholike Church , and so one Congregation . But Sir , give me leave to tell you , that in your principles , you put both the Church of Rome and your selves , to be parts of the Catholike Church : and yet sure you account them not one Congregation of Christians , seeing by separation one from another they are made two : or if you account them one , why did you separate your selves , and still remain separate from communion with the Roman Church ? why possessed you your selves of the Bishopricks and Cures of your own Prelates and Pastors , they yet living in Queen Elizabeths time ? and drew both your selves and their other subjects from all subjection to them , and communion with them ? Is this disunion , think you , fit to make one and the same Congregation of you and them ? is not charity , subordination , and obedience to the same state and government required as well to make one Congregation of Christians , as it is required to make one Congregation of Common-wealths men ? Though therefore you do account them all parts of the Catholike Church , yet you cannot make them in your principles one Congregation of Christians . Secondly , your position is not true ; the particulars named by you neither are , nor can be parts of the Catholike Church , unless you make Arians , and Pelagians , and Donatists , parts of the Catholike Church : which were either to deny them to be Hereticks and Schismaticks ; or to affirm , that Hereticks and Schismaticks , separating themselves from the communion of the Catholike Church , notwithstanding that separation , do continue parts of the Catholike Church . For who knows not that the Ethiopians to this day are * Eutychian Hereticks . And a great part of those Greeks and Armenians , who deny the Popes Supremacy , are infected with the Heresie of Nestorius , and all of them profess generally all those points of faith with us against you , wherein you differ from us ; and deny to communicate with you , or to esteem you other then Hereticks and Schismaticks , unless you both agree with them in those differences of faith , and subject your selves to the obedience of the Patriarch of Constantinople , as to the chief Head and Governour of all Christian Churches next under Christ ; and consequently as much a vice-Christ , in your account , as the Pope can be conceived to be . See , if you please , Hieremias Patriarch of Constantinople , his Answer to the Lutherans , especially in the beginning and end of the book ; Acta Theologorum Wittebergensium , &c. and Sir Edwyn Sands , of this subject , in his Survey , p. 232 , 233 , 242 , &c. Either therefore you must make the Eutychians and Nestorians no Hereticks , and so contradict the Oecumenical Councils of Ephesus , and Chalcedon , which condemned them as such ; and the consent of all Orthodox Christians , who ever since esteemed them no others ; or you must make condemned Hereticks parts of the Catholick Church , against all antiquity and Christianity . And for those Greeks neer Constantinople , who are not infected with Nestorianism and Eutychianism , yet in the Procession of the Holy Ghost , against both us and you , they must be thought to maintain manifest Heresie ; it being a point in a fundamental matter of faith , the Trinity : and the difference betwixt those Greeks and the Western Church , now for many hundred of years , and in many General Councils esteemed and defined to be real and great ; yea so great , that the Greeks left the Communion of the Roman Church upon that difference alone , and ever esteemed the Bishop of Rome and his party to have fallen from the true faith , and lost his ancient authority by that sole pretended error ; and the Latins alwaies esteemed the Greeks to be in a damnable error , in maintaining the contrary to the doctrine of the Western or Roman Church in that particular . And yet sure they understood what they held , and how far they differed one from another , much better then some Novel writers of yours , who prest by force of Argument , have no other way left them to maintain a perpetual visibility , then by extenuating that difference of Procession betwixt the Greek and Latin Church , which so many ages before Protestancy sprung up , was esteemed a main fundamental error by ▪ both parts , caused the Greeks to abandon all subjection and Communion to the Bishops of Rome ; made them so divided the one from the other , that they held each other Hereticks , Schismaticks , and desertors of the true faith , as they continue still to do to this day , and yet you will have them both to be parts of the Catholike Church . But when you have made the best you can of these Greeks , Armenians , Ethiopians , Protestants , whom you first name , you neither have deduced , nor can deduce them successively in all ages till Christ , as a different Congregation of Christians , from that which holds the Popes Supremacy ; which was my proposition . For in the year 1500. those who became the first Protestants , were not a Congregation different from those who held that supremacy ; nor in the year 500. were the Greeks a visible Congregation different from it ; nor in the year 300. were the Nestorians ; nor in the year 200. the Eutychians a different Congregation from those who held the said Supremacy : But in those respective years , those who first begun those Heresies , were involved within that Congregation , which held it , as a part of it , and assenting therein with it : who after in their several ages and beginnings fell off from it , as dead branches from the tree ; that , still remaining what it ever was , and only continuing in a perpetuall visibility of succession . Though therefore you profess never to have seen convincing proof of this in the first 400 years , & labour to infringe it in the next ages , yet I will make an essay to give you a taste of those innumerable proofs of this visible Consent in the Bishop of Rome's Supremacy , not of Order only , but of Power , Authority , & Iurisdiction over all other Bishops , in the ensuing instances , which happened within the first 400 , or 500 , or 600 , years . (a) Iohn Bishop of Antioch makes an Appeal to Pope Simplicius . And Flavianus (b Bishop of Constantinople , being deposed in the false Councill of Ephesus , immediately appeals to the Pope , as to his judge . (c) Theodoret was by Pope Leo restored , and that by an (d) appeal unto a just judgement . (e) Saint Cyprian desir●● Pope Stephen to depose Marcian Bishop of Arles , that another might be substituted in his place . And to evince the supream Authority of the Bishops of Rome , it is determined in the (f) Council of Sardis , That no Bishop deposed by other neighbouring Bishops , pretending to be heard again , was to have any successour appointed , until the case were defined by the Pope . Eustathius (g) Bishop of Sebast in Armenia was restored by Pope Liberius his Letters read and received in the Council of Tyana ; and (h) Saint Chrysostome expresly desires Pope Innocent not to punish his Adversaries , if they do repent . Which evinces that Saint Chrysostome thought that the Pope had power to punish them . And the like is written to the Pope by the (i) Council of Ephesus in the case of Iohn Bishop of Antioch . (k) The Bishops of the Greek , or Eastern Church , who sided with Arius , before they declared themselves to be Arians , sent their Legates to Iulius Bishop of Rome to have their cause heard before him against Saint Athanasius : the same did Saint Athanasius to defend himself against them : which Arian Bishops having understood from Iulius , that their Accusations against Saint Athanasius , upon due examination of both parties , were found groundless and false , required ( rather fraudulently , then seriously ) to have a fuller Tryal before a General Council at Rome : which ( to take away all shew of excuse from them ) Pope Iulius assembled . Saint Athanasius was summoned by the Pope to appear before him and the Councill in Judgement : which he presently did , ( and many other Eastern Bishops unjustly accused by the Arians aforesaid , had recourse to Rome with him , ) and expected there a year and a half : All which time his Accusers ( though also summoned ) appeared not , fearing they should be condemned by the Pope and his Councill . Yet they pretended not ( as Protestants have done in these last ages of the Kings of England ) That Constantius , the Arian Emperour of the East , was Head , or chief Governour over their Church in all Causes Ecclesiastical● ; and consequently that the Pope had nothing to do with them , but only pretended certain frivolous excuses to delay their appearance from one time to another . Where it is worth the noting , that Iulius , reprehending the said Arian Bishops ( before they published their Heresie , and so taking them to be Catholikes ) for condemning Saint Athanasius in an Eastern Councill , gathered by them before they had acquainted the Bishop of Rome with so important a cause , useth these words , An ignari ●stis hanc consuetudin●m esse , ut primum nobis scribatur ; ut ●inc quod justum est , à●finiri possit , &c. Are you ignorant , saith he , that this is the custome , to write to us first , That hence that which is just may be defined , &c. where most cleerly it appears , that it belonged particularly to the Bishop of Rome to pass a definitive sentence even against the Bishops of the Eastern , or Greek Church ; which yet is more confirmed by the proceedings of Pope Innocent the first , about 12. hundred years since , in the Case of Saint Chrysostome : Where first Saint Chrysostome appears to Innocentius from the Councill assembled at Constantinople , wherein he was condemned . Secondly Innocentius annulls this condemnation , and declares him innocent . Thridly , he Excommunicates Atticus Bishop of Constantinople , and Theophilus Bishop of Alexandria for persecuting Saint Chrysostome . Fourthly , after Saint Chrysostome was dead in Banishment , Pope Innocentius Excommunicates Arcadius the Emperour of the East , and Eudoxia his wife . Fifthly , the Emperour and Empress humble themselves , crave pardon of him , and were obsolved by him . The same is evident in those matters , which passed about the year 450. where Theodosius the Emperour of the East having too much favoured the Eutychian Hereticks by the instigation of Chrysaphius the Eunuch , and Pulcheria his Empress , and so intermedled too far in Ecclesiasticall causes , yet he ever bore that respect to the See of Rome , ( which doubtless in those circumstances he would not have done , had he not believed it an Obligation ) that he would not permit the Eutychian Council at Ephesus to be assembled , without the knowledge and Authority of the Roman Bishop Leo the first ; and so wrote to him to have his presence in it , who sent his Legats ▪ unto them . And though both Leo's letters were dissembled , and his Legats affronted , and himself excommunicated by wicked Dioscorus , Patriarch of Alexandria , and president of that Coventicle , who also was the chief upholder of the Eutychians , yet Theodosius repented before his death , banished his wife Pulcheria and Chrysaphius the Eunuch , the chief favourers of the Eutychians , and reconciled himself to the Chruch with great evidences of Sorrow and Pennance . (m) Presently after , Anno. 451. follows the Fourth General Council of Chalcedon : concerning which these particulars occur to our present purpose . First Martianus the Eastern Emperour wrote to Pope Leo , That by the Popes Authority a General Council might be gathered in what City of the Eastern Church he should please to chuse . Secondly , both Anatolius Patriarch of Constantinople , and the rest of the Eastern Bishops , sent to the legats of Pope Leo , by his order , the profession of their Faith. Thirdly , the Popes Legats sate in the first place of the Council before all the Patriarchs . (n) Fourthly , they prohibited ( by his order given them ) That Dioscorus Patriarch of Alexandria , and chief upholder of the Eutychians , should sit in the Councill ; but be presented as a guilty person to be judged ▪ becuase he had celebrated a Councill in the Eastern Church without the consent of the Bishop of Rome ; which ( said the Legats ) never was done before , nor could be done lawfully . This order of Pope Leo was presently put in execution by consent of the whole Councill , and Dioscorus was judged and condemned ; his condemnation and deposition being pronounced by the Popes Legats , and after subscribred by the Councill . Fifthly ▪ the Popes Legats pronounced the Church of Rome to be * Caput omnium Ecclesiarum , the Head of all Churches , before the whole Council , and none contradicted them . Sixthly , all the Fathers assembled in that Holy Councill , in their Letter to Pope Leo , acknowledged themselves to be his children , and wrote to him as to their Father . Seventhly , they humbly begged of him , that he would grant , that the Patriarch of Constantinople might have the first place among the Patriarchs , after that of Rome : which notwithstanding that the Councill had consented to ( as had also the Third General Councill of Ephesus done before ) yet they esteemed their grants to be of no sufficient force , untill they were confirmed by the Pope . And Leo thought not fit to yield to their petition , against the express ordination of the First Councill of Nice ; where Alexandria had the preheminence , as also Antioch and Hierusalem , before that of Constantinople . Saint Cyril of Alexandria , though he wholly disallowed Nestorius his doctrine , yet he would not break off Communion with him , till Celestinus the Pope had condemned him : whose Censure he required and expected . Nestorius also wrote to Celestine , acknowledging his Authority , and expecting from him the Censure of his doctrine . Celestinus condemned Nestorius , and gave him the space of ten daies to repent , after he had received his condemnation . All which had effect in the Eastern Church , where Nestorius was Patriarch of Constantinople . (o) After this Saint Cyrill having received Pope Leo's Letters , wherein he gave power to Saint Cyrill to execute his condemnation against Nestorius , and to send his condemnatory letters to him , gathered a Council of his next Bishops , and sent Letters and Articles to be subscribed , with the Letters of Celestine to Nestorius : which when Nestorius had received , he was so far from repentance , that he accused St. Cyril in those Articles , to be guilty of the Heresie of Apollinaris : so that St. Cyril being also accused of Heresie , was barred from pronouncing sentence against Nestorius , so long as he stood charged with that Accusation . Theodosius the Emperour , seeing the Eastern Church embroyled in these difficulties , writes to Pope Celestine about the assembling of a general Council at Ephesus , by Petronius afterwards Bishop of Bononia ( as is manifest in his life written by Sigonius ) Pope Celestine in his Letters to Theodosius , not only professeth his consent to the calling of that Council , but also prescribeth in what form it was to be celebrated ; as Firmus Bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia testified in the Council of Ephesus . Hereupon Theodosius sent his Letters to assemble the Bishops both of the East and West to that Council . And Celestine sent his Legats thither , with order not to examine again in the Council the cause of Nestorius , but rather to put Celestines condemnation of him , given the year before , into execution . St. Cyril Bishop of Alexandria , being constituted by Celestine his chief Legate ordinary in the East , by reason of that preheminency , and primacy of his See after that of Rome , presided in the Council : yet so , that Philip , who was only a Priest and no Bishop , by reason that he was sent Legatus à Latere from Celestine , and so supplied his place as he was chief Bishop of the Church , subscribed the first , even before St. Cyril , and all the other Legats and Patriarchs . In the sixth Action of this holy Council , Iuvenalis Patriarch of Hierusalem , having understood the contempt , which Iohn Patriarch of Antioch , who was cited before the Council , shewed of the Bishops and the Popes Legats there assembled , expressed himself against him in these words , Quod Apostolica ordinatione & Antiqua Traditione ( which were no way opposed by the Fathers there present ) Antiochena sedes perpetuo à Romana dirigeretur judicareturque , That by Apostolical ordination and ancient Tradition the See of Antioch was perpetually directed and judged by the See of Rome : which words not only evidence the precedency of place , as Dr. Hammond would have it , but of power and judicature in the Bishop of Rome over a Patriarch of the Eastern Church ; and that derived from the time and ordination of the Apostles . The Council therefore sent their decrees , with their condemnation of Nestorius , to Pope Celestine , who presently ratified and confirmed them . Not long after this , in the year 445. Valentinian the Emperour makes this manifesto of the most high Ecclesiastical authority of the See of Rome , in these words : Seeing that the merit of St. Peter , who is the Prince of the Episcopal Crown , and the Dignity of the City of Rome , and no less the authority of the holy Synod , hath established the primacy of the Apostolical See , lest presumption should attempt any unlawful thing against the authority of that See , ( for then finally will the peace of the Churches be preserved every where , if the whole universality acknowledge their Governour ) when these things had been hitherto inviolably observed , &c. Where he makes the succession from St. Peter to be the first foundation of the Roman Churches primacy ; and his authority to be , not only in place , but in power and Government over the whole visible Church : And adds presently , that the definitive sentence of the Bishop of Rome , given against any French Bishop , was to be of force through France , even without the Emperours Letters Pattents . For what shall not be lawful for the authority of so great a Bishop to exercise upon the Churches ? And then adds his Imperial precept , in these words . But this occasion hath provoked also our command , that hereafter it shall not be lawful , neither for Hilarius ( whom to be still entituled a Bishop , the sole humanity of the meek Prelate ( id est , the Bishop of Rome ) permits ) neither for any other to mingle arms with Ecclesiastical matters , or to resist the commands of the Bishop of Rome , &c. We define by this our perpetual decree , that it shall neither be lawful for the French Bishops , nor for those of other Provinces , against the ancient custom , to attempt any thing without the authority of the venerable Pope of the eternal City : But let it be for a law to them and to all , whatsoever the authority of the Apostolick See hath determined , or shall determine . So that what Bishop soever , being called to the Tribunal of the Roman Bishop , shall neglect to come , is to be compelled by the Governour of the same Province , to present himself before him . Which evidently proves , that the highest , Universal , Ecclesiastical Judge and Governour was , and ever is to be the Bishop of Rome : which the Council of Chalcedon before mentioned , plainly owned , when writing to Pope Leo they say , Thou Governest us , as the head doth the members , contributing thy good will by those which hold thy place . Behold a Primacy , not only of Precedency , but of Government and Authority ; which Lerinensis confirms , contr . Haeres . cap. 9. where speaking of Stephen Pope , he saies , Dignum , ut opinor , existimans , si reliquos omnes tantum fidei devotione , quantum locī authoritate , superabat : esteeming it ( as I think ) a thing worthy of himself , if he overcame all others as much in the devotion of faith , as he did in the Authority of his place . And to confirm what this universal Authority was ; he affirms , that he sent a Law , Decree , or Command into Africa , ( Sanxit , ) That in matter of rebaptization or Hereticks nothing should be innovated ▪ which was a manifest argument of his Spiritual Authority over those of Africa ; and à paritate rationis , over all others . I will shut up all with that which was publickly pronounced , and no way contradicted , and consequently assented to in the Council of Ephesus , ( one of the four first general Councils ) in this matter , Tom. 2. Concil . pag. 327. Act. 1. where Philip , Priest and Legate of Pope Celestine , sayes thus , Gratias agimus sanctae venerandaeque synodo , quod literis sancti beatique Papae nostri vobis recitatis , sanctas chartas , sanctis vestris vocibus , sancto capiti vestro , sanctis vestris exclamationibus , exhibueritis . Non enim ignorat vestra beatitudo , totius fidei , vel etiam Apostolorum , caput esse beatum Apostolum Petrum . And the same Philip , Act. 3. p. 330. proceeds in this manner , Nulli dubium , imo saeculis omnibus notum est , quod sanctus beatissimusque Petrus , Apostolorum Princeps & caput , Fideique columna , Ecclesiae Catholicae Fundamentum , à Domino nostro Jesu Christo , Salvatore generis humani ac redemptore nostro claves regni accepit , solvendique ac ligandi peccata potestas ipsi data est ; qui ad hoc usque tempus ac semper in suis successoribus vivit & judicium exercet : — Hujus itaque secundum ordinem successor & locum-tenens , sanctus beatissimusque Papa noster Celestinus , nos ipsius praesentiam supplentes huc misit . And Arcadius another of the Popes Legats enveighing against the Heretick Nestorius , accuses him , ( though he was Patriarch of Constantinople , which this Council requires to be next in dignity after Rome ) as of a great crime , that he contemned the command of the Apostolick See , that is , of Pope Celestine . Now had Pope Celestine had no power to command him ( and by the like reason to command all other Bishops ) he had committed no fault in transgressing and contemning his command . By these testimonies it will appear , that what you are pleased to say , That the most part of the Catholike Church hath been against us to this day , and all for many hundred of years , is far from truth : seeing in the time of the holy Oecumenical Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon , the universal consent of the whole Catholike Church was for us in this point . As to what you say of Congregation of Christians in the beginning , I answer , I took the word Christians in a large sense , comprehending in it all those ( as it is vulgarly taken ) who are Baptized and profess to believe in Christ , and are distinguished from Jews , Mahumetans and Heathens , under the denomination of Christians . What you often say of an universal Monarch , &c. if you take Monarch for an Imperious sole Commander , as temporal Kings are , we acknowledge no such Monarch in the Church : if only for one who hath received power from Christ , in meekness , charity , and humility to govern all the rest , for their own eternal good , as brethren or children , we grant it . What also you often repeat of a Vice-Christ , we much dislike that title , as proud and insolent , and utterly disclaim from it ; neither was it ever given by any sufficient Authority to our Popes , or did they ever accept of it . As to the Council of Constance , they never questioned the Supremacy of the Pope , as ordinary chief Governour of all Bishops and people in the whole Church : nay they expresly give it to Martinus Quintus , when he was chosen . But in extraordinary cases , especially when it is doubtful who is true Pope , as it was in the beginning of this Council , till Martinus Quintus was chosen : Whether any extraordinary power be in a general Council , above that ordinary power of the Pope : which is a question disputed by some amongst our selves , but touches not the matter in hand ; which proceeds only of the ordinary and constant Supream Pastor of all Christians , abstracting from extraordinary tribunals and powers , which are seldom found in the Church , and collected only occasionally , and upon extraordinary accidents . Thus honoured Sir , I have as much as my occasions would permit me , hastened a reply to your answer ; and if more be requisite , it shall not be denyed . Only please to give me leave to tell you , that I cannot conceive my Argument yet answered by all you have said to it . William Iohnson . Feb. 3. 1658. Sir , It was the 21. of January , before your Answer came to my hands ; and though my Reply was made ready by me the third instant , yet I have found so great difficulties to get it transcribed , that it was not possible to transmit it to you before now . But I hope hereafter I shall find Scribes more at leasure . I must desire you to excuse what errors you find in the Copy which I send ; As also , that being unwilling to make a farther delay , I am enforced to send a Copy which hath in it more interlineations then would otherwise become me to send to a person of your worth . Yet I cannot doubt , but your Candor will pass by all things of this nature . I am Sir , Your very humble servant , William Iohnson . Feb. 15. 1658. Worthy Sir , I have now expected neer three moneths for your rejoynder to the Reply which I made to that answer which you were pleased to send , and return to my Argument concerning the Church of Christ , but as yet nothing hath appeared . I must confess , I have wondered at it , considering the earnestness which appeared in you at the first , to proceed with speed in a business of this nature : what the impediment hath been , I am only left to guess : but certainly truth is strong , and it will not be found an easie thing to oppose her while we keep close to form . I am now necessitated to go out of London ; so that if your Papers come in my absence , I shall hope you will have the patience to expect untill they can be sent from London to me , and my Answers returned by the way of London : but I do engage not to make a delay longer then the circumstances of the place and times shall enforce . Sir , I do highly honour and esteem your parts and person ; and shall be very glad to bring that business to an handsome issue which hath been so calmly and soberly prosecuted . I am an enemy to passion ; and as I have hitherto found you sweet and gentle in your proceedings towards me , so shall you alwaies find me , Worthy Sir , Your friend to serve you , William Johnson . May 2. 1659. Sir , Be pleased to return your Answer , Papers or Letters which you intend for me , to the same place to which you directed your former ; by which means , I shall be secure to receive them at my house , which is fourscore miles from London . To Mr. T. L. ( who called me to this work . ) Sir , THough I am a stranger to you , I thought meet to take notice of the Letters which you sent your friend here ( T. H. ) It seems you urge hard for a Reply , and intimate somewhat of triumph in my delay : you speak as an incompetent Judge . God is the Master of my time and work ; and him I must serve : and not neglect his greater work , for such trivial objections as your friend hath sent me , which are answered over and over by many so long ago . Had you read Blondel , Molineus de novitate Papismi , Whitaker , Sibrandus , Lubbertus , Chamier , Abbots , Crakenthorp , Spalatensis , or one of many that have confuted them , you would sure call for no more : Or if in English you had read Dr. Field , Dr. White ; yea , or but Sir Humphery Lind ( to pass by multitudes ) you might have seen their vanity . Yea plainly read impartially my two books against Popery , and be a Papist if you can . But it seems you take it for a poor answer to be referred to books . Do not fear it . But yet let me tell you , that my hand is not more legible then my printed books : and if I had sent you this in print , would that have made it a poor answer ? Or rather , is not this a poor exception , and shews that it is not truth that is look after : for truth may be printed as well as written . If you be deceived by the men of the Papal way , let me yet intreat you , but to read over those two books ( The safe Religion , and the Key for Catholikes ) : If your soul be not worth so much labour , take your course : I did my duty . But I must say , that it is doleful case that professors are so ungrounded , that such vanities should carry them away from Catholike verity and unity , to a faction that usurps the name of Catholikes . To be free with you , I think it is that pride and levity that brings them first to separation from our Churches into Sects , and the guilt which they there incur , that prepareth professors to be so far forsaken of God , as to be given up to believe a lie , and to turn Papists . O dreadful case ! that one Bishop cannot swell in pride , but men must make a Religion of his pride ! yea and make a Catholike Church of it ! yea and plead for it , and make the sin their own ; yea condemn all Christians that list not themselves under this Prince of pride . He is culpably , if not wilfully blind , that hath read Scripture and Church history , and knoweth not , that the Pope for three hundred years after Christ , was not the creature that now he is ; nor had for most of that time any more Government over other Bishops , then I have over neighbour Pastors : and after that time , he was no more an universal Head , or Governour , or Vicar of Christ , then the Archbishop of Canterbury was ▪ having indeed a far larger Diocess then he , but never was more then the swelled Primate of one National ( Imperial ) Church . When Synods began to be gathered out of a Principality ( the Emperours desiring that means of unity within their Empire ) , the pride of the Prelates set them presently a striving for superiority , who should sit highest , and write his name first , and have the largest Diocess , & c ! And now men make a Religion of the fruits of this abominable pride . What are all their disputings for , and all this stir that they make in the world , but to set up one man over all the earth ? and that to do a spirituall work , which consisteth not with force , but is managed on conscience : One wretched man must govern the Antipodes on the other side of the earth , that is indeed uncapable of truly and justly Governing the City of Rome it self . Popes , that their own Councils have condemned for ravishing maids and wives at their doors , for Murders , Simony , Drunkenness , Heresie , denying the Resurrection and the life to come ( that is , being no Christians ) these forsooth must be the universal Governours , or we are all undone ; and we are damned if we believe it not : O how dreadfull are the effects of sin ; and how great a judgement is a blinded mind ! This comes of falling into Sects and parties , which leads men into the gulf of the most odious Schism ( even Popery ) in the world . But if you are engaged in this party , it s two to one but you are presently made partial , and will not so much as read what is against them ; or will believe them if they do but tell you that we write lies ; when they are things done in the open sun , and which they cannot confute , nor dare attempt , le●t they manifest their shame . Take from them their Clergies vast Dominions , Principalities , Lands and Lordships , Riches and worldly Honours , with which they so much abound , and then try how many will plead for the Pope : then they 'l say , If Ba●l be a God , let him plead for himself . But I confess , I have little hopes of turning any of them , though I could shew it them written by an Angel from heaven that Popery is a deceit : for the Scripture that 's above Angelical authority declareth it ; and by making it a nose of wax , they take it as if it were not sense , nor intelligible without the Popes interpretation ( which in difficult cases he dare not give ) . They cry up the Church , and when we would have them stand to the Church , they shamefully turn their backs ; and when two or three parts of the Churches through the world are against the Papal Soveraignty , they refuse them as Hereticks or Schismaticks . They cry up Tradition , and when we offer them in the main point to be tried by it , they disclaim the Tradition of two or three parts of the universal Church as being all Hereticks . And may not any Sect do so too as honestly as they ? yea among the ignorant that know not Chaffe from Corn , ●hey have some of them the faces to perswade them that their Church is the greater half of the Christian world ! when they know they speak notoriously falsly , or else they are unworthy to speak of such things that they understand not . But to what purpose should any words be used with men , that have taught so great a part of the world , not to believe their eyes and other senses ! Can any writing make any matter plainer to you , then that Bread is Bread , and Wine is Wine , when you see them , and tast , and eat , and drink them ? And yet their general Councils approved by the Pope , have made it an Article of their faith , that the whole substance of the Bread and Wine is turned into the Body and Blood of Christ , so that there is left no Bread or Wine , but only that colour , quantity and tast that before belonged to it . And if you know not Bread when you eat it , or Wine when you drink it , and when the senses of all the sound men in the world concur with yours , is it not vain for me , or any man to dispute with you ? Can you have any thing brought to a surer judgement then to all your senses ? And yet no doubt but your seducers can say something to prove that Bread is not Bread when you see and eat it : No wonder then if they can confute me . But do they indeed believe themselves ? how is it possible ? there is no exercise of reason , and belief that supposeth not the certainty of sense . If I cannot know Bread and Wine when I see , touch , ●ast them ; then cannot I know the Pope , the Councils , the Scripture , the Priest , or any thing else . If you think to let go this point of Popery and hold the rest , you know not what Popery is : for a Pope and Council having determined it , you are damned by them for denying the faith : and if you depart from the infallibility of their Rule and judge in points of faith , or at least from the obligation of it , in one thing , they will confess to you that you may as well do it in more ; False in this , and certain in nothing , is their own conclusion . Sir , I have not been unwilling to know the truth , having a soul to save or lose as well as you , and having as much reason to be loth to perish . If you have so far forfeited the Grace of God , as meerly to follow the pride of a pretended Vice-Christ ( that hath turned doctrine into error , worship into superstition and dead formality , light into darkness , discipline into confusion mixt with tyranny ) ; if meerly to set up one Tyrant over the consciences ( and bodies too ) of all believers in the world , you can fall into a Sect , deny Scripture , Reason , the Judgement and Tradition of most of the Church , and your own and all mens eye-sight , tast and other senses , the Lord have mercy on you , if you be not past it : I have done with you , yet remaining An unfeigned desirer of your welfare , and lamenter of the Apostacies and giddiness of these times , Richard Baxter . May. 18. 1659. Did you know what it is , by loose and false allegations , to be put to read so many Volumes ( in great part ) in folio , to try whether the alledger say true or false , you would not expect that I should return an answer , and read so much of so many folios in any less then ten or eleven daies , which I think hath been all that I have had to write and read so much . The Reader must take notice that I wrote the former Letter to the person that sent Mr. Johnsons Letters , with a charitable jealousie , that if he were himself in doubt , he might be resolved : But in his return he fully disclaimed Popery , and assured me , that it is for the sake of some friends that he desired my labour , and not for his own . R. B. The Reply to Mr. Johnsons second PAPER . Sir , THE multitude and urgency of my employments gave me not leave till this day ( May 2. ) so much as to read over all your Papers ; But I shall be as loth to break off our Disputation , as you can be , though perhaps necessity may sometime cause some weeks delay . And again , I profess , my indignation against the Hypocrital Jugling of this age , doth provoke me to welcome so ingenuous and candid a disputant as your self , with great content . But I must confess also , that I was the less hasty in sending you this Reply , because I desired you might have leisure to peruse a Book which I published since your last , ( A Key for Catholikes ; ) seeing that I have there answered you already , and that more largely then I am like to do in this Reply . For the sharpness of that I must crave your patience ; the persons and cause I thought required it . Ad 1m. What explications were made to your Friend of your Thesis , I could not take notice of , who had nothing but your writing to Answer . 2. If you will not be precise in Arguing , you had little reason to expect ( much less so strictly to exact ) a precise Answer ; which cannot be made as you prescribed , to an Argument not precise . 3. I therefore expect accordingly that the unlearned be not made the Judges of a dispute which they are not fit to judge of ; seeing you desire us to avoid their road . 4. Again I say , if you will not be precise in arguing , I can hardly be so in answering . And by [ a Congregation of Christians ] you may mean [ Christians politically related to one Head , ] whether Christ , or the Pope : But the word [ Assemblies ] expresseth their actuall Assembling together , and so excludeth all Christians that are or were Members of no particular assemblies , from having Relation as Members of Christ ( our Head ) or the Pope ( your Head , ) and so from being of the Congregation , as you Call , The Church universall . 5. I had great reason to avoid the snare of an equivocation , or ambiguity , of which you gave me cause of jealousie by your [ whatsoever ] as I told you : as seeming to intimate a false supposition : To your Like , I answer , it is unlike , and still more intimates the false supposition . [ Whatsoever Congregation of men is the Common-wealth of England ] is a phrase that importeth that [ There is a Congregation of men which is not the Common-wealth of England . ] Which is true , there being more men in the world . So [ whatsoever Congregation of Christians is now the true Church ] doth seem to import , that you suppose [ there is a Congregation of Christians ( univocally so called ) that are not the true Church ] which you would distinguish from the other : Which I only let you know at the entrance , that I deny , that you may not think it granted . Yet I must tell you that nothing is more ordinary then for the Body to be said to do that which a part of it only doth ; As that [ the Church administreth Sacraments , Discipline , Teatheth , &c. the Church is assembled in such a Council &c. ] when yet it is but a small part of the Church that doth these things . And when Bellarmine , Gretser , &c. say [ the Church is the infallible judge of Controversies of faith , ] they mean not [ the whole Church ] which containeth every Christian , when they tell you that It is the Pope they mean. and therefore I had reason to enquire into your sense , unless I would willfully be over-reacht . You now satisfie me that you mean it universally , viz. [ ●ll that Congregation ( or Church ) of Christians which is now the true Church of Christ , doth acknowledge , &c. ] which I told you I deny . 6. To my following distinction you say [ that all the world knows that whatsoever is acknowledged to have been ever in the Church by Christs instiution , cannot be meant of any accidental thing , but of a necessary unchangeable and essentiall thing , in Christs true Church , ] To which I Reply , Either you see the gross fallacy of this defence , or you do not : If you do not , then never more call for an exact Disputant , nor look to be delivered from your errors by argumentation , though never so convincing . If you do , then you are not faithfull to the truth . In your Major proposition the words being many ( as you say , you penetrated divers arguments together , ) ambiguities were the easier hidden in the heap . That which I told you is Accidental to the Church ( and that but to a corrupted part ) was [ the Acknowledging of the Papacy as of Christs Institution , ] and therefore if it were granted that a thing [ of Christs Institution ] could not be Accidental , yet [ the Acknowledgment ] that is , the Opinion or asserting of it may . If the Church by mistake should think that to be Essential to it which is not , though it will not thence follow that its Essence is but an Accident , yet it will follow that both the false opinion , and the thing it self so falsly conceited to be essential , are but accidents , or not essential . You say [ It cannot be meant of any Accidental thing ] But 1. That Meaning it self of theirs may be an Accident . 2. And the question is not what they [ Mean , that is , Imagine or affirm ] it to be ; But what it is in deed and truth . That may be an Accident , which they think to be none . 2. But that which you say [ all the world knows ] is a thing that [ all the world of Christians except your selves , ] that ever I heard of , do know , or acknowledge to be false . What! doth all the world know that Christ hath instituted in his Church nothing but what is essential to it ? I should hope that few in the Christian world would be so ignorant as ever to have such a thought , if they had the means of knowledge that Protestants would have them have . There is no natural body but hath natural Accidents as well as Essence : Nor is there any other society under heaven ( Community or Policy ) that hath not its Accidents as well as Essence : And yet hath Christ instituted , a Church that hath nothing but Essence without Accidents ? Do you build upon such foundations ? What! upon the denyal of common principles and sence ? But if you did , you should not have feigned all the world to do so too . Were your asseriton true , then every soul were cut off from the Church , and so from salvation , that wanted any thing of Christs Institution , yea for a moment . And then what would become of you . You give me an instance in [ the Eucharist ] But 1. Will it follow that if the Eucharist be not Accidental or integral , but Essential , that therefore every thing Instituted by Christ is Essentiall ? surely no ? 2. The Question being not whether the Being of the Eucharist in the Church be Essential to the Universal Church : But whether the Belief or Acknowledgment of it by All and every one of the members , be Essential to the Members ? I would crave your answer but to this Question ( though it be nothing to my cause . ) Was not a Baptized person in the primitive and ancient Churches a true Church-member , presently upon Baptism ? And then tell me also , Did not the ancient Fathers and Churches unanimously hide from their Catechumens , even purposely hide , the mysterie of the Eucharist , as proper to the Church of understand ? and never opened it to the auditors , till they were Baptized ? This is most undenyable in the concurrent vote of the ancients . I think therefore that it follows that in the Judgement of the ancient Churches the Eucharist was but of the Integrity , and not the Essence of a member of the Church ; and the acknowledgement of it by all the members , a thing that never was existent . Where you say , your Major should have been granted or denyed without these distinctions : I Reply , 1. If you mean fairly , and not to abuse the truth by Confusion , such distinctions as you your self call [ Learned and substantial ] can do you no wrong . They do but secure our true understanding of one another : And a few lines in the beginning by way of distinction are not vain , that may prevent much vain altercation afterwards . When I once understand you , I have done : And I beseech you , take it not for an injury to be understood . As to your conclusion , that you used no fallacy ex Accidente , and that my instances are not apposite ; I Reply , that 's the very life of the Controversie between us : And our main Question is not so to be begged . On the grounds I have shewed you , I still averr , that [ the holding of the Papacy is as Accidental to the universal Church , as a Cancer in the breast is to a woman ; ] And though you say , It is Essential , and of Christs Institution , that maketh it neither Essential , nor of Christs Institution ; nor doth it make all his institutions to be essentialls . Now of your second Syllogism . 1. I shall never question the successive Visibility of the Church . Whereas I told you out of your Fransc. à S. Clara , that many or most of your own Schoolmen agree not to that which you say [ All Christians agree to , ] you make no reply to it . As to your Minor , I have given you the Reasons of the necessity and harmlesness of my distinctions : we need say no more to that [ a Congregation of Christians ] and [ a Church ] are Synonima : But the word [ true ] was not added to your first term by you or me ; and therefore your instance here is delusory . But to say [ whatsoever Congregation of Christians , is now the true Church ] is all one as to say whatsoever Church of Christians is now the true Church . ] When I know your meaning I have my end . Though my syllogism say not that [ the Church of Rome acknowledgeth those things alwaies done , and that by Christs institution ] it nevertheless explicateth the weakness of yours , as to the fallacy accidentis : For 1. The holding it alwaies done , and that of Christs Institution , may be either an Accident , or but of the Integrity , and ad bene esse , yea possibly an errour . 2. And I might as easily have given you Instances of that kind . To your 3. Syllogism I Reply . 1. When you say the Church [ had Pastors ] as you must speak of what existed , ( and Universalls exist not of themselves ) so it is necessary that I tell you , How far I grant your Minor , and how far I deny it . My argument from the Indians and others , is not solved by you . For 1. You can never prove that the Pope was preached to the Iberians by the Captive maid , nor to the Indians by Frumentius . 2. Thousands were made Christians and baptized by the Apostles , without any preaching or profession of a papacy , Act. 2. & passim . 3. The Indians now Converted in America by the English and Dutch , hear nothing of the Pope , nor thousands in Ethiopia . 4. Your own do or may baptize many without their owning the Pope , who yet would be Christians . And a Pastor not known , or believed , or owned , is actually no Pastor to them . To your confirmation , I Reply : You misread my words : I talk not of [ Invisible . ] I say it is true that the Universal Church is united to Christ as their universall Head : and is Visible 1. In the members . 2. In the Profession . 3. Christ himself is visible in the Heavens , and as much seen of most of the Church as the Pope is , that is , not at all . As the Pope is not Invisible , though one of a million see him not , no more is Christ , who is seen by most of the Church , and by the best part , even by the glorified . You know my meaning : Whether you will Call Christ visible or not , I leave to you : I think he is visible : But that which I affirm , is , that the universal Church hath no other visible universal Head or Pastor : But particular Churches have their particular Pastors all under Christ. Of Eph. 4. I easily grant that the whole Church may be said to have Pastors , in that all the particular Churches have Pastors . But I deny that the whole have any one universal Pastor but Christ. Of that which is the point in controversie , you bring no proof . If you mean no more then I grant , that the whole Church hath Pastors both in that each particular Church hath Pastors , and in that unfixed Pastors are to preach to all as they have opportunity , then your Minor hath no denyall from me . Instead of prosecuting your Argument , when you had cast the work of an Opponent upon me , you here appeal [ to any true Logician or expert Lawyer ] Content ; I admit of your Appeal . But why then did you at all put on the face of an Opponent ? could you not without this lost labour at first have called me to prove the successive visibility of our Church ? But to your Appeal , Ho all you true Logicians , this Learned man and I refer it to your tribunal , whether it be the part of an Opponent , to contrive his Argument so as that the Negative shall be ●is , and then change places , and become Respondent , and make his adversary Opponent at his Pleasure . ] We leave this cause at your bar , and expect your sentence . But before we come to the Lawyers bar , I must have leave more plainly to state our case . We are all agreed that Christianity is the true Religion , and Christ the Churches Universal Head ; and the holy Scriptures the Word of God. Papists tell us of another Head and Rule ; the Pope and Tradition , and judgement of the Church . Protestants deny these Additionals , and hold to Christianity and Scripture only ; Our Religion , being nothing but Christianity , we have no Controversie about : Their Papall Religion , superadded , is that which is Controverted : They affirm 1. the Right . 2. the Antiquity of it : We deny both : The Right we disprove from Scripture , though it belongs to them to prove it . The Antiquity is it that is now to be referred . Protestancy being the Denyall of Popery , it is we that Really have the Negative , and the Papists that have the Affirmative . The Essence of our Church ( which is Christian ) is confessed to have been successively visible : But we deny that theirs as Papal hath been so ; and now they tell us , that it is Essential to ours to deny the succession of theirs , and therefore require us to prove a succession of ours , as one that still hath denyed theirs : Now we leave our case to the Lawyers , seeing to them you make your appeal , 1. Whether the substance of all our cause lie not in this Question , Whether the Papacy or universal Government by the Pope , be of heaven , or of men ? and so whether it hath been from the beginning ? which we deny , and therefore are called Protestants ; and they affirm , and are therefore called Papists . 2. If they cannot first prove a successive visibility of their Papacy and Papal Church , then what Law can bind us to prove that it was denied , before it did arise in the world , or ever any pleaded for it ? 3. And as to the point of Possession , I know not what can be pretended on your side . 1. The Possession of this or that particular Parish Church or Tythes , is not the thing in question ; but the universal Headship is the thing : But if it were , yet it is I that am yet here in Possession ; and Protestants before me for many ages successively : And when possessed you the Headship of the Ethiopian , Indian , and other extra-imperial Churches ? never to this day . No nor of the Eastern Churches , though you had communion with them . 2. If the Question be , who hath Possession of the universal Church ; we pretend not to it ; but only to be a part , and the soundest safest part . 3. The case of Possession therefore is , whether we have not been longer in Possession of our Religion , which is bare Christianity , then you of your superadded Popery . Our Possession is not denied , of Christianity . Yours of Popery we deny : ( and our denyal makes us called Protestants ) : Let therefore the reason of Logicians , Lawyers , or any rational sober man determine the case , whether it do not first and principally belong to you , to prove the visible succession of a Vice-Christ over the universal Church . As to your contradictory impositions I Reply , 1. Your exception was not exprest , and your imposition was peremptory . 2. I told you I would be a Papist if you prove [ that the whole visible Church in all ages hath held the Popes universal headship ] you say that you [ have proved it by this argument , that either he hath that supremacy , or some other Church ; denying that he hath alwaies had it , hath been alwaies visible , ] and that Church you require should be named . I Reply , 1. Had not you despaired of making good your cause , you should have gone on by Argumentation , till you had forced me to contradict some common principle . 2. If you should shew these Papers to the world , and tell them that you have no better proof of the succession of your Papacy , then that we prove not that it hath alwaies been denied by the visible Church , you would sure turn thousands from Popery , if there be so many rational considering impartial men that would peruse them , and believe you . For any man may know that it could not be expected that the Churches should deny a Vice-Christ before he was sprung up . Why did not all the precedent Roman Bishops disclaim the title of universal Bishop or Patriarch , till Pelagius and Gregory ? but because there was none in the world that gave occasion for it . How should any Heresie be opposed or condemned before it doth arise ? But you fairly yield me somewhat here , and say that you [ oblige me not to prove a continued visible Church formally and expresly denying it ; but that it was of such a constitution as was inconsistent with any such supremacy , or could and did subsist without it . ] Reply , I confess your first part is very ingenuous and fair . Remember it hereafter , that you have discharged me from proving [ a Church that denied the Papacy formally & expresly . ] But as to what you yet demand . 1. I have here given it you , because you shall not say ●'le sail you : I have answered your desire . But 2. It is not as a thing necessary , but ex abundanti , as an overplus . For you may now see plainly , that to prove that the Church was without an universal Pastor , ( which you require ) is to prove the Negative , viz. that then there was none such ; whereas its you that must prove that there was such . I prove our Religion : do you prove yours : though I say to pleasure you , I 'le disprove it , and have done it in two books already . My reason from the stress of necessity , which you lay on your Affirmative and Additions , was but subservient to the foregoing Reasons , not first to prove you bound , but to prove you the more bound to the proof of your Affirmative . And therefore your instance of Mahumetans is impertinent . He that saith , you shall be damned if you believe not this or that , is more obliged to prove it , then he that affirmeth a point as of no such moment . To what I say of an accident and a corrupt part , you say you have answered , and do but say so , having said nothing to it that is considerable . Me thinks you that make Christ to be corporally present in every Church in the Eucharist , should not say , that the King of the Church is absent . But when you have proved , 1. That Christ is so absent from his Church , that there 's need of a Deputy to essentiate his Kingdom , and 2. That the Pope is so Deputed ; you will have done more then is yet done for your cause . And yet let me tell you , that in the absence of a King , it is only the King and Subjects that are essential to the Kingdom . The Deputy is but an officer , and not essential . Your naked assertion , that whatsoever Government Christ instituteth , of his Church , must be essential to his Church , is no proof , nor like the task of an Opponent . The Government of inferiour officers is not essential to the universal Church , no more then Judges and Justices to a Kingdom . And yet we must wait long before you will prove that Peter and the Pope of Rome are in Christs place , as Governours of the universal Church . Sir , I desire open dealing , as between men that believe these matters are of eternal consequence . I watch not for any advantage against you . Though it be your part to prove the Affirmative which our Negative supposeth ; yet I have begun the proof of our Negative ; but it was on supposition that you will equally now prove your Affirmative , better then you have here done . I have proved a visible Church successively that h●ld not the Popes universal Government do you now prove [ that the universal Church in all ages did hold the Popes universal Government ] which is your part ; or I must say again , I shall think you do but run away , and give up your cause as unable to defend it : I have not failed you ; do not you fail me . You complain of a deficiency in quality , though you confess that I abound in number . But where is the defect ! you say , I must [ assert both that these were one Congregation , and ever visible since Christs time ] Reply , If by [ one Congregation ] you meant [ one assembly met for personal Communion ] which is the first sense of the word [ Congregation ] it were ridiculous to feign the universal Church to be such . If you mean , One as united in one visible humane Head , that 's it that we deny , and therefore may not be required to prove . But that these Churches are One as united in Christ the Head , we easily prove ; In that from him the whole family is named ; the body is Christs body , 1 Cor. 12.12 , 13. and one in him , Eph. 4.4 , 5 , 6 , &c. All that are true Christians are one Kingdom or Church of Christ ; but these of whom I speak are true Christians ; therefore they are one Kingdom or Church of Christ. And that they have been visible since Christs time till now , all history , even your own affirms : As in Iudaea , & from the Apostles times , in Ethiopia , Egypt and other parts , ( Rome was no Church in the time of Christs being on earth . ) And to what purpose talk you of determinate Congregations ? Do you mean individual assemblies ? those cease when the persons die ; or do you mean assemblies meeting in the same place ? so they have not done still at Rome . I told you , and tell you still , that we hold not that God hath secured the perpetual visibility of his Church in any one City or Country : but if it cease in one place , it is still in others . It may cease at Ephesus , at Philippi , Colosse , &c. in Tenduc , Nubia , &c. and yet remain in other parts . I never said that the Church must needs be visible still in one Town or Country . And yet it hath been so de facto , as in Asia , Ethiopia , &c. But you say , I nominate none . Are you serious ! must I nominate Christians of these Nations , to prove that there were such ? you require not this of the Church Historians . It sufficeth that they tell you , that Ethiopia , Egypt , Armenia , Syria , &c. had Christians , without naming them . When all history tells you that these Countries were Christians , or had Churches , I must tell you [ what and who they were ] ! must you have their names , sirnames , and Genealogies ? I cannot name you one of a thousand in this small Nation , in the age I live in : How then should I name you the people of Armenia , Abassia , &c. so long ago ? You can name but few of the Roman Church in each age : And had they wanted learning and records as much as the Abassins and Indians , and others , you might have been as much to seek for names as they . You ask [ were they different Congregations ? ] Answ. As united in Christ they were one Church : but as assembling at one time , or in one place , or under the same guide , so they were not one , but divers Congregations . That there were any Papists of 400. years after Christ , do you prove if you are able . My conclusion , that all have been against you for many hundred years , must stand good , till you prove that some were for you : yet I have herewith proved that there were none , at least that could deserve the name of the Church . Do you think to satisfie any reasonable man by calling for positive proof from Authors , of such Negatives ? yet proof you shall not want , such as the nature of the point requireth , viz. That the said Churches ; of Ethiopia , India , the outer Armenia , and other extra-imperial Nations , were not under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome . 1. You find all these Churches , or most of them at this day ( that remain ) from under your jurisdiction : and you cannot tell us when or how they turned from you . If you could , it had been done . 2. These Nations profess it to be their Tradition , that the Pope was never their Governour . 3. No history or authority of the least regard , is brought by your own writers to prove these Churches under your jurisdiction : no not by Baronius himself , that is so copious , and so skilful in making much of nothing . No credible witnesses mention your Acts of jurisdiction over them , or their Acts of subjection , which Church history must needs have contained , if it had been true , that they were your subjects . 4. Their absence from general Councils , and no invitation of them thereunto , ( that was ever proved , or is shewed by you ) is sufficient evidence . 5. Their Liturgies , even the most ancient , bear no footsteps of any subjection to you . Though your forgeries have corrupted them : as I shall here ( digressively ) give one instance of : The Ethiopick Liturgy , because of a [ Hoc est corpus meum ] which we also use , is urged to prove that they are for the corporal presence , or Transubstantiation : But saith Vsher , de success . Eccles. In Ethiopicarum Ecclesiarum universali Canone , descriptum habebatur [ Hic panis est corpus meum ] : In Latina translatione contra fidem Ethiopic . Exemplarium ( ut in prima operis editione confirmat Pontificius ipse Scholiastes ) expunctum est nomen [ Panis . ] 6. Constantines Letters of request to the King of Persia for the Churches there ( which Euseb. in vit . Constant. mentioneth ) do intimate that then the Roman Bishop ruled not there . 7. Even at home , the Scots and Brittains obeyed not the Pope , nor conformed about the Easter observation , even in the daies of Gregory ; but resisted his changes , and refused communion with his Ministers . 8. I have already elsewhere given you the testimony of some of your own writers : as Reynerius contra Waldens . Catal. in Biblioth . Patr. Tom. 4. p. 773. saying [ The Churches of the Armenians , and Ethiopians , and Indians , and the rest which the Apostles converted , are not under the Church of Rome . ] 9. I have proved from the Council of Chalcedon , that it was the Fathers , that is , the Councils that gave Rome its preheminence : But those Councils gave the Pope no preheminence over the extra-imperial Nations : For 1. Those Nations being not called to the Council , could not be bound by it . 2. The Emperours called and enforced the Councils , who had no power out of their Empire . 3. The Diocess are described and expresly confined within the verge of the Empire ; see both the description , and full proof in Blondel de Primatu in Ecclesia . Gall. And 10. The Emperours themselves did sometime ( giveing power to the Councils Acts ) make Rome the chief ; and sometime ( as the Councils did also ) give Constantinople equal priviledge ; and sometime set Constantinople highest , as I have shewed in my Key , p. 174 , 175. But the Emperours had no power to do thus with respect to those without the Empire . But what say you now to the contrary ? Why 1. You ask , [ Were those Primitive Christians of another kind of Church order and Government then were those under the Roman Empire ? ] Answ. When the whole body of Church history satisfieth us that they were not subject to the Pope , which is the thing in question , is it any weakening of such evidence in a matter of such publick fact , to put such a question as this , Whether they were under another kind of Government ? 1. We know that they were under Bishops or Pastors of their own : and so far their Government was of the same kind . 2. If any of them , or all , did suit their Church associations to the several Commonwealths in which they lived , and so held National Councils , and for order sake made one among them the Bishop primae sedis , then was that Government of the same kind with that of the Imperial Churches , and not of another kind . The Roman Government was no other , but One , thus Ordered , in one Empire : And if there were also One , so ordered , in England , one in Scotland , one in Ethiopia , &c. this was of the same kind with the Roman . Every Church suited to the form of the Common-wealth , is even ( as to that humane mode ) of the same kind ( if a humane mode must be called a Kind . ) It may be of that same kind , and mode , without being part of the same Individual . But 2. You say that [ How far from truth this is , appeareth from St. Leo in his Sermons de Natali suo , where he sayes , [ Sedes Roma Perri ; quicquid non possidet armis , Religione tenet . ] Reply , If you take your Religion on trust , as you do your authorities that are made your ground of it , and bring others to it when you are deceived your selves , how will you look Christ in the the face when you must answer for such temerity ? Leo hath no Sermons de Natali suo , but only one Sermon affixed to his Sermons , lately found in an oid book of Nicol. Fabers . And in that Sermon there is no such words as you here alledge . Neither doth he Poetize in his Sermons , nor there hath any such words which might occasion your mistake : and therefore doubtless you believed some body for this that told you an untruth ; and yet ventured to make it the ground of charging my words with untruth . Yet let me tell you , that I will take Pope Leo for no competent judge or witness , though you call him a Saint : as long as we know what past between him and the Council of Chalcedon , and that he was one of the first tumified Bishops of Rome , he shall not be judge in his own cause . 3. But you add that [ The Abassines of Ethiopia were under the Patriarch of Alexandria anciently , and he under the authority of the Roman Bishop . ] Reply . 1. Your bare word without proof shall not perswade us that the Abassines were under the Patriarch of Alexandria for above three hundred , if not four hundred years after Christ. Prove it , and then your words are regardable . 2. At the Council of Nice the contrary is manifest by the sixth Can. [ Mos antiquus perdurat in Aegypto , vel Lybia & Pentapoli , ut Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem , &c. ] And the common descriptions of the Alexandrian Patriarchate in those times confine it to the Empire , and leave out Aethiopia ( Pisanus new inventions we regard not . ) 3. I deny that the Patriarch of Alexandria was under the Government of the Bishop of Rome , any more then the Jury are under the Foremen , or the junior Justices on the bench are under the senior , or York is under London , or the other Earls of England are under the Earl of Arundel . 4. But if both these were proved , that Ethiopia was under Alexandria , and Alexandria under Rome , I deny the consequence , that Ethiopia was under Rome : for Alexandria was under Rome but secundum quid , and so far as it was within the Empire , and therefore those without the Empire that were under Alexandria , were not therefore under Rome . 5. And if it could ( as it never can ) be proved of Abassia , what is that to all the other Churches in India , Persia , and the rest of the world ? Sir , If you have impartially read the ancient Church history , and yet can believe that all these Churches were then under the Pope , despair not of bringing your self to believe any thing imaginable that you would have to be true . 3. Your next question is [ When the Roman Emperours were yet Heathens , had not the Bishops of Rome the supremacy over all other Bishops through the whole Church ? ] Answ. No : they had not ; nor in the Empire neither . Prove it , I beseech you , better then by questioning . If you askt , Whether men rule not Angels ? your Question proves not the Affirmative . 4. But you ask again [ Did those Heathen Emperours give it him ? ] Answ. 1. Power over all Churches none ever gave him , till titularly his own Parasites of late . 2. Primacy of meer degree in the Empire , for the dignity and many advantages of the Emperial seat , the Bishops of the Empire gave him by consent ( Blondel de primatu , gives you the proof and reason at large : ) yet so as that [ small regard was had to the Church of Rome before the Nicene Council ] as saith your Aeneas Sylvius , Pope Pius the second . 5. [ Whether the Bishop of Rome had power over the Bishop of Arles by Heathen Emperours , ] is a frivolous question . Arles was in the Roman Patriarchate , and not out of the Empire . The Churches in the Empire , might by consent dispose themselves into the Patriarchal orders , without the Emperours , and yet not meddle out of the Empire . Yet indeed Cyprians words intimate no power Rome had over Arles , more then Arles had over Rome : that is , to reject communion with each other upon dissent . Nay it more confuteth you , that even under Heathen Emperours , when Church associations were by voluntary consent of Pastors only ; and so if they had thought it necessary , they might have extended them to other Principalities : yet de facto they did not do it , as all history of the Church declareth , mentioning their Councils and associations , without these taken in . See now how little your objections are worth ; and how groundlesly you bid me [ See now how little my allegations are to the purpose . ] As for the rabble of Hereticks which you reckon up , ( as you esteem them , ) some of them are no Christians univocally so called , and those cannot be of the Christian Church . Others of them were better Christians then the Romanists , and so were of the same Church with us : And it is not many reproachfull names put on them by malice that makes them no Christians , or of many Churches or Religions . If an arrogant usurper will put nick-names on all that will not bow to him as the Vice-Christ , and call them Iconoclasts , Berengarians , Waldensians , Albigenses , Wicklefifts , Hussites , Lutherans , Calvinists ( you may as well give them a thousand more names ) this makes them not of various Religions , nor blots out their names from the book of life . I have in my most retired thoughts perused the History of those mens lives , and of the lives of many of your Popes , together with their severall doctrines ; and with death and judgement in my eyes , as before the great God of Heaven . I humbly beg of him , that I may rather have my everlasting portion with those holy men whom you burned , as Waldenses , Albigenses , Hussites , &c. then with the Popes that burned them , or those that follow them in that cruelty , unless reconciling grace have given them repentance unto life . The Religion of all these men was one , and they were all of one universall Church . Where you again call for One Congregation , I tell you again that we know no Vnity essentiall , from whence the Church can be called one , but either Christ or the Vice-Christ : the former only is asserted by us , and the latter also by you , which we deny : And therefore we cannot call the universall Church One , in any other formal respects , but as it is Christian , and so One in Christ. Yet have I herewith satisfied your demand , but shewed you the unreasonableness of it , beyond all reasonable contradiction . You next enquire whether [ we account ] Rome and us One Congregation of Christians ? ] I answer , the Roman Church hath two Heads , and ours but one , and that 's the difference . They are Christians , and so One Church as united in Christ , with us and all other true Christians . If any so hold their Papacy and other errours as effectively and practically to destroy their Christianity , those are not Christians , and so not of the same Church as we . But those that do not so , but are so Papists , as yet to be truly and practically Christians , are and shall be of the same Church with us , whether they will or not : And your modest stile makes me hope that you and I are of one Church , though you never so much renounce it . As Papall , we are not of your Church ; that 's a new Church form ; But as Christian , we are and will be of it , even when you are condemning , torturing and burning us ( if such persecution can stand with your Christianity . ) But you aske [ Why did you then separate your selves , and remain still separate from the Communion of the Roman Church . ] Answ. 1. We never separated from you as you are Christians ; We still remain of that Church as Christian , and we know ( or will know ) no other form ; because that Scripture and primitive Churches knew no other . Either you have by Popery separated from the Church as Christian , or not ; If you have , it s you that are the ( damnable ) Separatists . If you have not , then we are not separated from you , in respect of the form of the Christian Church . And for your other form ( the Papacy ) 1. Neither I , nor my Grand-father , or great grand-father did separate from it : because they never entertained it . 2. Those that did so , did but Repent of their sin , and that 's no sin . We still remain separated from you as Papists , even as we are separate from such as we are commanded to avoid , for impenitency in some corrupting doctrine or scandalous sin ; Whether such mens sins or their professed Christianity be most predominant at the heart , we know not : but till they shew Repentance we must avoid them ; yet admonishing them as brethren , and not taking them as men of another Church , but as finding them unfit for our Communion . But O sir , what manner of dealing have we from you ! must we be imprisoned , rackt , hang'd or burn'd , if we will not believe that bread & wine , are not bread and wine , contrary to our own and all mens senses ; and if we will not worship them with Divine worship , and will not obey the Pope of Rome in all such matters contrary to our Consciences : and then must we be chidden for separating from you , if we 〈◊〉 a while escape the strappado and the 〈◊〉 ? What! will you blame us for not believing that all mens senses are deceived , and the greater part of Christians and their Traditions ( against you ) are false , when we read , and study , and suspect our selves , and pray for light , and are willing to hear any of your reasons , but cannot force our own understandings to believe all such things that you believe , and meerly because the Pope commands it : and when we cannot thus force our own understandings , must we be burned , or else called Separatists ? would you have the Communion of our Ashes , or else say , We forsake your Communion ? In your Churches we cannot have leave to come , without lying against God and our consciences , and saying , We believe what our senses contradict ; and without committing that which our consciences tell us are most heynous sins . We solemnly protest that we would do as you do , and say as you say , were it not for the love of truth and holiness , and for fear of the wrath of God , and the flames of hell : but we cannot , we dare not rush upon these errours , and sell our souls to please the Pope . And must we then either be murdered , or taken for uncha●●●●ble ? will you say to so many poor souls , that are ready to enter into another world [ Either sin against your consciences , and so damn your souls , or else let us burn and murder you , or else you do not love us ; you are uncharitable if you deny us leave to kill you , and you separate from the Communion of the Church . ] We appeal from the Pope and all unreasonable men , to the great God of heaven and earth , to judge righteously between you and us concerning this dealing . As for possessing our selves of your Bishopricks and Cures , if any particular person had personal injury in the change , being cast out without cause , they must answer for it that did it , and not I : though I never heard any thing to make me believe it . But must the Prince and people let alone delinquent Pastors for fear of being blamed for taking their Bishopricks ? Ministers of the same Religion with us may be cast out for their crimes : Princes have power over Pastors as well as David , Solomon , and other Kings of Israel had . Guil. Barklay and some few of your own knew this . The Popes treasonable exemption of the Clergy from their Soveraigns judgement , will not warrant those Princes before God , that neglect to punish offe●●ing Pastors . And I beseech you tell us , ●hen our consciences ( after the use of all means that we can use to be informed ) cannot renounce all our sences , nor our reason , nor the judgement of the most of the Church , or of antiquity , or the Word of God , and yet we must do so , or be no members of your Church , what wrong is it to you if we choose us Pastors of our own , in the order that God hath appointed ? Had not the people in all former ages the choice of their Pastors ? we and our late forefathers here were never under your oversight : but we know not why we may not now choose our Pastors as well as formerly . We do it not by tumults : we kill not men , and tread not in their blood , while we choose our Pastors , as Pope Damasus was chosen . The tythes and other temporal maintenance we take from none , but the Magistrate disposeth of it as he seeth meet for the Churches good . And the maintenance is for the cure or work : and therefore they that are justly cast out of the cure , are justly deprived of the maintenance . And surely when they are dead , none of you can with any shew of reason , stand up and say , These Bishopricks are yours : or these Parsonages your●● It is the Incumbent personally that only ●an claim title ; saving the supereminent title of Christ , to whom they are devoted . But the successive Popes cannot have title to all the tithes and Temples in the world ; nor any of his Clergy that never were called to the charges . If this be disunion , it is you that are the Separatists and cause of all . If you will needs tell all the Christian world , that except they will be ruled by the Pope of Rome , and be burned if they believe not as he bids them in despight of all their senses , he will call them Separatists , Schismaticks , and say they disunite and are uncharitable : again , we appeal to God and all wise men that are impartial , whether it be he or we that is the divider ? You ask me [ Is not charity , subordination , and obedience to the same state and Government , required as well to make one Congregation of Christians , as it is required to make a Congregation of Commonwealths men ? ] Answ. Yes , it is : But as all the world is one Kingdom under God the universal King , but yet hath no universal Vice-King , but every Commonwealth only hath its own Soveraign ; even so all the Christian world is one Church under Christ the universal King of the Church , but ha●● not one Vice-Christ , but every Church hath its own Pastors , as every School hath its own Schoolmaster . But all the anger is because we are loth to be ruled by a cruel usurper therefore we are uncharitable . Your next reason against me , is , because [ They cannot be parts of the Catholike Church , unless Arrians , and Pelagians , and Donatists be parts ] and so Hereticks and Schismaticks be parts . ] Reply 1. You know sure , that your own Divines are not agreed whether Hereticks and Schismaticks are parts of the Church . And if they were , yet it is not de fide with you , as not determined by the Pope . If it be , then all yours are Hereticks that are for the affirmative ( Bellarmine nameth you some of them ) If it be not , then how can you be sure its true , and so impose it on me , that they are no parts . 2. Arrians are no Christians , as denying that which is essential to Christ , and so to Christianity . Pelagianism is a thing that you are not agreed among your selves of the true nature of . Many of the Dominicans and Jansenists think the Jesuits Pelagianize , or Semipelagianize at least . I hope you will not shut them out . Donatists were ●chismaticks , because they divided in the Catholike Church , and not absolutely from it ▪ and because they divided from the particular Churches about them that held the most universal external Communion . I think they were still members of the universal Church : but I 'le not contend with any that will plead for his uncharitable denyal . It s nothing to our case . That the Aethiopians are Eutychian Hereticks , I will see better proved before I will believe it . Rosses words I so little regard , that I will not so much as open his book to see whether he say so or not . I know that Heresie is a personal crime , and cannot be charged on Nations , unless you have evidence that the Nations consent to it : which here you have none : Some are called Hereticks for denying points essential to Christianity : these are no Christians , and so not in the Church : but many also are called Hereticks by you , and by the Fathers , for lesser errors consistent with Christianity : and these may be in the Church . The Abassines , and all the rest have not been yet tryed , and convicted before any competent Judge : and slanderers we regard not . 2. Many of your own writers acquit them of Heresie , and say , the difference is now found to be but in words , or little more . To what you say of their disclaiming us , unless we take the Patriarch of Constantinople for the Vice-Christ ; you many waies mistake . 1. If this were true , that they rejected us , it were no proof that we are not of one universal Church . 2. They do not claim to be Vice Christi , the universal Governours of the Church : the title of universal Patriarch they extended but to the then Roman Empire ; and that not to an universal Government , but Primacy . And many of them have been of brotherly charity to our Churches of late . Cyril I need not name to you , whom your party procured Murdered for being a Protestant . Meletius first Patriarch of Alexandria and then of Constantinople ) was highly offended with the fiction of a submission of the Alexandrian Church to Rome , ( under a counterfeit Patriarch - Gabriels name ) ; and wrote thus of the Pope in his Letters to Sigismund King of Poland An. 1600. [ Perspiceret Majestas tua , nos cum majoribus nostris , non ignorare ( quem precaris ut agnoscamus ) Pontificem scilicet Romanum veluti & Constantinopolitanum Pontificem , Pontificem Constant. Caeterosque Apostolicarum sedium Pontifices . Qui non unus omnium , sed inter omnes & ipse unus . — Vnum universale Caput , quod sit D. N. Iesus Christus ; alius esse non possit , nisi biceps aliquod sit corpus , aut potius monstrum corporis . Perspiceres , Rex serenissime , ( ut interim de Concilio illo Florentino , veluti de re silentio digna taceam ) non Nos , è Patria , tum Orientalium , tum Occidentalium dogmatibus traditionibusque quae per septem universalia concilia nobis consignarunt atque obsignarunt , egressos : Illos egressos , qui novitatibus in dies delectantur . ] in the same Letters he commendeth Cyril . And what can a Protestant say more against the Vice-Christship , and your novelties ? And for Ieremias his predecessor , whom you mention , though they that disputed with him by Letters ( Stephanus Gerlochius , & Martinus Crusius ) did not agree in all things with him , yet he still professed his desire of unity and concord with us , and in the beginning of his second answer rejoyceth , that we agreed with them in so many things . And Iohan. Zygomalas in his Letters to Crusius 1576. May 15. saith , [ Perspicuum tibi & omnibus futurum est , quod in continuis , & causam fidei praecipue continentibus articulis , consentiamus : quae autem videntur consensum inter vos & nos impedire , talia sunt , si velit quis , ut facile ea corrigere possit . — Gaudium in caelo & super terram erit , si coibit in unitatem utraque Ecclesia , & idem sentiemus , & simul vivemus in omni concordia & pace secundum Deum & in sincerae charitatis vinculo . ] But as it is not the Patriarch that is the whole Greek Church , so it is not their errors in some lesser or tolerable points that prove us of two Churches or Religions . Whereas you say , It is against all Antiquity and Christianity to admit condemned Hereticks into the Church . I Reply , 1. I hate their condemnation , rather then reverence it , that ( even being non judices ) dare condemn whole Nations without hearing one man of them speak for himself , or hearing one witness that ever heard them defend Heresie ; and this meerly because some few Bishops have in the daies of old maintained Heresie , and perhaps some may do so still , or rather differ from you in words , while you misunderstand each other . Did I find such errors with them as with you , yet I durst charge them on no one man that I had not reason to hold guilty of them : I dare not accuse whole Nations of your errors . But of all these things ( and of Sandys words which you cite ) I have spoken already in two Books , and in the latter fully proved that you differ in many points of faith , and greater things then you call Heresies in others among your selves , even your Popes , Saints , and Councils , and yet neither part is judged by you to be out of the Church . See my Key , p. 124 , 125 , 127 , 128 , 129. p. 52. ad 62. When you say so much to prove the Greeks guilty of manifest Heresie , and pretend that it is but some novel writers of ours that deny it , as forced by your arguments . ] I must say , that you prove but your own uncharitableness instead of their Heresie : and you shew your self a stranger to your own writers , who frequently excuse the Greeks from Heresie , and say the difference at the Council of Florence was found to be more about words then faith . Thomas a Iesu de Convers. omn. gentium , lib. 6. cap. 8. p. 281. saith , [ His tamen non obstantibus alii opinantur Graecos tantum esse schismaticos : Ita ex junioribus docet Pater Azorius 1. primae Institut . Moral . lib. 8. cap. 20. q. 10. Quare merito ab Ecclesia Catholica non haeretici , sed schismatici censentur & appellantur : Ita apert insinuat D. Bernardus ( no Novel Protestant ) in Epist. ad Eugenium , lib. 3. [ Ego addo ( inquit ) de pertinacia Graecorum qui nobiscum sunt , & non sunt : juncti fide , pace divisi ; quanquam & in fide ipsa claudicaverint à rectis semitis . ] Idem aperte tenet D. Thomas Opuscul . 2. ubi docet patres Graecos in Catholico sensu esse exponendos . Ratio hujus Opinionis est quoniam ut praedictus author docet , in praedictis fidei articulis , de quibus Graeci accusantur ab aliquibus ut haeretici , potius Nomine , quam Re ab Ecclesia Romana dissident . Inprimis inficiantur illi Spiritum Sanctum à Patre Filioque procedere ut in Bulla Vnionis Eugenii 4. dicitur , existimantes Latinos sentire à Patre Filioque procedere tanquam à duobus principiis ; cum tamen Latina doceat Ecclesia procedere à duabus personis tanquam ab uno principio & spiratore ; quare Graeci ut unum principium significent , dicunt Spiritum Sanctum à Patre per Filium procedere ab omni aeternitate . ] Your Paulus Veridicus ( Paul Harris Dean of your Academy lately in Dublin ) in his Confutation of Bishop Vshers Sermon , saith that the Greeks Doctrine about the Procession of the Holy Ghost à Patre per Filium , and not à Patre Filioque , was such that [ When they had explicated it , they were found to believe very Orthodoxly and Catholikely in the same matter , and for such were admitted ] and that [ He findeth not any substantial point that they differ from you in , but the Primacy ] ( So the Armenians were received in the same Council of Florence . ) Many more I have read of your own writers that all vindicate the Greeks ( and others that disown you ) from Heresie , I think more then I have read of Protestants that do it . And do you think now that it is not a disgrace to your cause , that man of your learning , and one that I hear hath the confidence to draw others to your opinions , should yet be so unacquainted with the opinions of your own Divines , and upon this mistake so confidently feign that it is our Novel writers forced to it by your arguments that have been so charitable to these Churches against antiquity that knew better ? If the Greeks and Latins tear the Church of Christ by their Condemnations of each other , they may both be schismatical , as guilty of making divisions in the Church , though not as dividing from the Church . And if they pretend the denyal of the Christian faith against each other as the cause , you shall not draw us into the guilt of the uncharitableness , by telling us that they know better then we . If wise men fall out and fight , I will not justifie either side , because they are wise and therefore likelier then I to know the cause . But what need we more to open your strange mistake and unjust dealing , then the authority of your so much approved Council of Florence , that received both Greeks and Armenians ; and the very words of the Popes Bull of the union , which declare that the Greeks and Latins were found to mean Orthodoxly both ? the words are these [ Convenientes Latini & Graeci in hac sacrosancta Oecumenica synodo magno studio invicem usi sunt , ut inter alia articulus etiam ille de Divina Spiritus Sancti processione summa cum diligentia & assidua inquisitione discuteretur . Prolatis vero testimoniis ex Divinis Scripturis , plurimisque authoritatibus sanctorum doctorum orientalium & occidentelium , aliquibus quidem ex Patre & Filio , quibusdam vero ex Patre per Filium procedere dicentibus Spiritū Sanctum , & ad eandem intelligentiam aspicientibus omnibus sub diversis vocabulis : Graeci quidem asseruerunt quod id quod dicunt Spiritum Sanctum ex Patre procedere , non hac mente proferrent ut excludant Filiū , sed quia eis videbatur , ut aiunt , Latinos asserere spiritum Sanctum ex Patre Filioque procedere tanquam ex duobus principiis & duabus Spirationibus , ideo abstinuerunt à dicendo quod Spiritus Sanctus ex Patre procedat & Filio . Latini vero affirmaverunt non se hac mente dicere Spiritum Sanctum ex Filioque procedere ut excludant Patrem , quin sit fons ac principium totius Deitatis , Filii scilicet , & Spiritus Sancti , aut quod id quod Spiritus Sanctu procedat ex Filio , Filius à Patre non habeat , sive quod duo ponant esse principia , seu duas spirationes , sed ut unum tantum asserunt esse principium , unicamque spirationem Spiritus Sancti , prout hactenus asseruerunt ; & cum ex his omnibus unus & idem eliciatur veritatis sensus , tandem , &c. — ] I pray you now tell it to no more , that it is same Novel writers of ours , prest by force of argument , that have been the authors of this extenuation . May heart even trembleth to think that there should be a thing called Religion among you , that can so far extinguish both Charity and Humanity , as to cause you to pass so direful a doom ( without authority or tryal ) on so great a part of the Christian world , for such a word as this , about so exceeding high a mysterie , when your Pope and Council have pronounced a union of meanings ! And what mean you in your Margin to refer me to Nilus , as if he asserted [ That the Greeks left the Communion of the Roman Church upon that difference alone . ] Verily Sir , in the high matters of God , this dealing is scarce fair ! ( pardon this plainness : consider of it your self . ) The substance of Nilus book is about the Primacy of the Pope : The very contents prefixed to the first book are these [ Oratio demonstrans non aliam , &c. An Oration demonstrating that there is no other cause of the dissension between the Latin and Greek Churches , then that the Pope refuseth to defer the cognisance and iudgement of that which is controverted to a general Council : but he will sit the sole Master and Iudge of the Controversie ; and will have the rest as Disciples to be hearers of ( or obey ) his word , which is a thing aliene from the Laws and actions of the Apostles and Fathers . ] And he begins his Book ( after a few words ) thus , [ Causa itaque hujus dissidii , &c. The cause therefore of this difference , as I judge , is not the sublimity of the point exceeding mans capacity : For other matters that have divers times troubled the Church , have been of the same kind : This therefore is not the cause of the dissention ; much less is it the speech of the Scripture it self , which as being concise , doth pronounce nothing openly of that which is controverted . For to accuse the Scripture , is as much as to accuse God himself . But God is without all fault . But who the fault is in , any one may easily tell , that is well in his wits . ] He next shews , that it is not for want of learned men on both sides , nor is it because the Greeks do claim the Primacy , and then concludeth it as before . He maintaineth that your Pope succeedeth Peter only as a Bishop ordained by him , as many other Bishops that originally were ordained by him in like manner do succeed him ; and that his Primacy is no Governing power , nor given him by Peter , but by Princes and Councils for order sale : and this he proves at large , and makes this the main difference . Bellarmines answering his so many Arguments might have told you this , if you had never read Nilus himself . If you say that , This point was the first cause , I deny it ; but if it were true , yet was it not the only or chief cause afterward . The Munner of bringing in the [ filioque ] by Papal authority without a general Council , was it that greatly offended the Greeks from the beginning . But you say that when I have made the best of these Greeks , Armenians , Ethiopians , Protestants , I cannot deduce them successively in all ages till Christ as a different Congregation of Christians from that which holds the Popes supremacy , which was your proposition . Reply . I have oft told you we own no universal informing Head but Christ. In respect to him I have proved to you , that is not my interest or design to prove us or them [ a different Congregation from you as you are Christians . ] Nor shall you tempt me to be so uncharitable , as to damn , or unchristen all Papists as far as you do others , incomparably safer and better then your selves . But as you are Papal , and set up a new informing head , I have proved that you differ from all the antient Churches , but yet that my cause requireth me not to make this proof , but to call you to prove your own universal succession . You add your Reason , because these beforenamed were at first involved in your Congregation , and then fell off as dead branches . Reply . This is but an untruth in a most publick matter of fact . All the truth is this . 1. Those Indians , Ethiopians , Persians , &c. without the Empire , never fell from you , as to subjection , as never being your subjects . Prove that they were , and you have done a greater wonder then Baronius in all his Annals . 2 The Greeks , and all the rest within the Empire , without the Roman Patriarchate , are fallen from your Communion ( if renouncing it be a fall ) but not from your subjection , having given you but a Primacy , as Nilus shews , and not a Governing pewer over them . The withering therefore was in the Roman branches , if the corruptions of either part may be called a withering . You that are the lesser part of the Church may easily call your selves the Tree , and the greater part ( two to one ) the Branches ; but these beggings do but proclaim your necessities . In good time you come to give me here at last some proof of an ancient Papacy , as you think . But first , you quite forget ( or worse ) that it is not a man or two in the whole world in an age , but the universal Church , whose judgement ( and form ) we are now enquiring after . You are to prove [ That all the Church in every age was for the Papal universal Government ] and so that none can be saved that is not . 2. But instead of this which you should prove , you prove not that those very single persons named by you , had any opinion of the Papal Soveraignty . 1. Your first Testimony is from Liberatus , c. 16. [ John Bishop of Antioch makes an appeal to Pope Simplicius . ] Reply . 1. I see you are deceived by going upon trust : But its pitty so to deceive others . There was no such man as Iohn Bishop of Antioch in Simplicus raign . Iohn of Antioch was he that made the stirs and divisions for Nestorius , against Cyril , and called the Schismatical Council at Ephesus , and dyed , Anno 436. having raigned thirteen years , as Baronius saith , and eighteen as Nicephorus : He dyed in Sixtus the fifths time . But it s said indeed that John Bishop of Alexandria made some address to Simplicius : of which Baronius citeth Liberatus words ( not c. 16. but c. 18. ) ad An. D. 483. that John being expelled by the Emperour Zeno's command , went first to Calendion Bishop of Antioch , and so to Rome to Simplicius , ( if Baronius were to be believed , as his judge ) Liberatus saith , that he took from Calendion Bishop of Antioch Letters to Simplicius , to whom he appealed as Athanasius had done , and perswaded him to write for him to Acacius Bishop of Constantinople ; which Simplicius did : But Acacius upon the receipt of Simplicius Letters , writ flatly to him , that he knew no John Bishop of Alexandria , but had taken Petrus Mogus as Bishop of Alexandria , into his Communion , and that without Simplicius , for the Churches unity , at the Emperours command ] Here you see how little regard Acacius made of your Pope : and that the appeal was but to procure his Letters to Acacius , which did him no good . 2. But do you in good earnest think that all such addresses , or appeals are ad superiorem judicem ? What more common then to appeal or make such addresses to any that have advantage of interest , for the relief of the oppressed ? Young men appeal to the aged in Controversies : and the less learned to the more learned : and the poor to the rich , or to the favorites of such as can relieve them . Iohns going first to Antioch was no acknowledgement of superiority . 3. But of this I must refer you to a full answer of Blondel against Perron , de Primatu in Eccles. cap. 25. sect . 76. where you may be satisfied of the vanity of your instance . Whereas therefore you infer ( or you say nothing ) that because this Iohn thus appealed to Rome , therefore he appealed thither as to the Vniversal Ruler of the Church . ] The story derideth your consequence . Much more that [ therefore the Vniversall Church held the Pope then to be the Vniversall Head or Governour . ] Here 's nothing of Government but intreaty , and that but within the Empire , and that but upon the seeking of one distressed man that would be apt to go to those of most interest that might relieve him , and all this rejected by Acacius and the Emperour . A fair proof ! 2. Your 2. instance is , that Flavianus appeals to the Pope as to his Iudge . Epist. praeambul . Concil . Chalced. ] Reply . I have perused all the Council of Chalcedon , as it is in Binnius , purposely to find the words you mention of Flavians appeal , and I find not any such words . In Flavianus own Epistle to Leo there are no such words , nor any other that I can find , but the word [ appeal ] once in one of the Emperours Epistles ( as I remember ) but without mentioning any Judge . I will not use to turn over Volumes thus in vain for your citations , while I see you take them on trust , and do not tell me in any narrow compasse of cap. sect . or pag. where to find them . But had you found such words , 1. An appeal is oft made from a partiall to an impartiall Judge , though of equal power . 2. He might appeal to the Bishop of Rome as one of his Judges in the Council where he was to be tried , and not as alone . And it is evident in the History , that it was not the Pope , but the Council that was his Iudge . 3. The greatnesse of Rome , and Primacy of Order ( not of Jurisdiction ) made that Bishop of speciall interest in the Empire : and distressed persecuted men will appeal to those that may any whit relieve them . But this proves no Governing power , nor so much as any Interest without the Empire . It being the custome of the Churches in the Empire , to make the Votes of the Patriarchs necessary in their general Councils , no wonder if appellations be made from those Councils that wanted the Patriarchs consent to other Councils where they cons●nted ; in which as they gave Constantin●ple the second place , without any pretence of a Divine Right , and frequent appeals were made to that Seat ; so also they gave Rome the first Seat. Of this whole matter Perron is fully answered already by Blondell de primatu , cap. 25. sect . 63. to which I refer you , it being as easie to read it in Print as Writing . Adding this only , that as Flavian ( in his necessity ) seeking help from the Bishop of the prime Seat in the Empire , did acknowledge no more but his Primacy of Order by the Laws of the Empire and the Councils thereof , so the Empire was not all the world , nor Flavian all the Church , nor any more then one man , and therefore if he had held ( as you will never prove he did ) the Universall Government of the Pope , if you would thence argue that it was held by all the Church , your consequence must needs be marvelled at , by them that believe that One man is not the Catholick Church , no more then seeking of help was an acknowledging an Universal Headship or Governing power . And it is undeniably evident , that the Church of Constantinople and all the Greek Churches did believe that Universal Primacy which in the Empire was set up , to be of humane right , and new , and changeable , as I prove not only by the expresse testimony of the Council of Chalcedon , but by the stating of the Primacy at last in Gregories dayes on Constantinople it self , whose pretence neither was nor could be any other then a humane late institution . And if the Greek Churches judged so of it in Gregories daies , and at the Council of Chalcedon in Leo's daies , we have no reason to think that they ever judged otherwise ; at least not in Flavians dayes , that were the same as Leo's , and the businesse done about 449. This Argument I here set against all your instances at once ; and it is unanswerable . 3. Your next instance is of Pope Leo's restoring Theodoret , upon an appeal to just judgement ] Reply . 1. Every Bishop hath a power to discern who is fit for his own Communion ; and so Leo and the Bishops of the West perceiving Theodoret to be Orthodox , received him as a Catholick into their Communion ; and so might the Bishop of Constantinople have done . But when this was done , the Council did not hereupon receive him , and restore him to his Bishoprick , no nor would hear him read the passages between Pope Leo and him , no nor make a Confession of his faith , but cried out against him as a Nestorian , till he had expresly Anathematized Nestorius and Eutiches before the Council , and then they received and restored him : so that the finall judgement was not by Leo , but by the Council : But if in his distresse he appealed as you say , to a just judgement , from an unjust , or sought to make Leo his friend , no wonder ; but this is no grant of an Universall Soveraignty in Leo : and if it had granted it in the Empire , that 's nothing to the Churches in other Empires : Or if he had granted it as to all the world , he was but one man of the world , and not the Catholick Church . The Council expresly take on them the determination after Leo , and they slight the Legates of the Pope , and pronounce him a creature of the Fathers , and give Constantinople equall priviledges , though his Legates refuse to consent . But of the frivolousnesse of this your instance , see Dr. Field of the Church , lib. 5. cap. 35. pag. 537 , 538. and more fully Blondell de primatu , ubi sup . cap. 25. sect . 63 , 65. 4. Your next instance is of Cyprians desire that Stephen would depose Martian Bishop of Arles . ] Reply 1. That Epistle cannot be proved to be Cyprians : for the Reasons I refer you to M. de Lanny on that subject , and Rivets Critica Sacra : only adding that there are eight copies of Cyprian , ancient M. S. S. in the English Universities , that have none of them this Epistle to Stephen ( of which see Ierem. Stephens Edition of Cyprian de unitate Ecclesiae ) 2. Could you prove this Epistle to be Cyprians , it makes against you more then for you . Not for you : for the distance of Cyprian , the nearnesse of Stephen might make it a matter more concerning him , and fitter for him to transact : And it was within his Patriarchate , and therefore no wonder if he were minded of it . And yet Cyprian only writes to him to write to the Bishops of France to restrain Martian : [ § . 2. Quapropter facere te oportet plenissimas literas ad coepiscopos nostros in Gallia constitutos , ne ultra Maertianum pervicacem & superbum , & divinae pietatis ac fraternae salutis inimicum , collegio nostro insultare patiantur . ] Cyprian did as much to Stephen , as he desired Stephen to do to the Bishops of France : This therefore is against you , if any thing to the purpose : Had you found but such words of a Pope to another Bishop as Cyprian useth to your Pope , you would have taken it as an evidence of his superiority . § . 3. Dirigantur in provinciam & plebem in Arelate c●●xistentem à te literae , &c. [ Let thy Letters be directed to the Province and people at Arles , &c. ] And it s plainly an act of non-Communion common to all Bishops towards those unfit for their Communion , that Cyprian speaks of [ § . 3. Idcirco enim , frater charissime , copiosum corpus est sacerdotum concordiae mutuae glutino atque unitatis vinculo copulatum , ut siquis ex collegio nostro haeresim facere , & gregem Christi lacerare & vastare tentaverit , subveniant caeteri , & quasi pastores utiles & misericordes oves dominicas in gregem colligant . ] You see it is a common duty of brotherhood , and not an act of jurisdiction that Cyprian speaks of . 5. Your next instance is , that [ the Council of Sardis determined that no Bishop deposed by other neighbouring Bishops , pretending to be heard again , was to have any successor appointed till the case were defined by the Pope : Conc. Sard. cap. 4. cited by Athanas. Apol. 2. pag. 753. ] Reply . It seems you are well acquainted with the Council , that know not of what place it was ! It was the Council at Sardica , and not at Sardis , that you would mean. Sardis was a City of Lydia , apud Tmolum montem , olim Regio Craesi , inter Thiatiram & Philadelphiam . But this Sardica was a City of Thrace in the confines of the higher Mysia , inter Naissum Myssiae & Philippopolim Thraciae . As to the instance , 1. This Council was by Augustine rejected as hereticall , though I defend not his opinion . 2. It was of so little note and authority , that it was not known to the Council of Carthage to have the next antecedent Canons ( which you would not have omitted if you had read them , its like ) in which your writers glory as their chiefest strength ; and which Bellarmine thinks Pope Zosimus call'd , the Nicene Canon : or rather is it not suspicious that this Canon is but forged , when those Carthage Fathers plainly say , In nullo Patrum concilio decretum invenimus ; mentioning that antecedent Canon proposed by Hosius , to which this mentioned by you proposed by Gaudentius is but an addition or supplement . And it is not like that all these Africane Fathers could be ignorant of those Canons of Sardica , when such abundance of Africane Bishops were at the Council , and that but about 50 years before : you may see in Binnius how hard a strait he is put to , to give any tolerable reason of this , and only saith , that its like some how the Canons were lost : sure Tradition was then grown untrusty . Your Cardinal Cusanus de Concord . Cath. l. 2. c. 25. makes a doubt whether the Canon of appeals be indeed a Canon of this Council . 3. But grant it be , yet take these observations , and you shall find small cause of confidence in that Canon . 1. It was made in a Case of the distresse of Athanasius and other Orthodox Orientall Bishops , meerly in that strait , to save them and the Churrhes from the Arrians . The Arrians withdrew from the Council being the minor part , and excommunicated Iulius with Athanasius , and other Occidentals ; and the Occidental Bishops excommunicated the Oriental . Athanasius himself was a chief man in the Council , and had before been rescued by the help of Iulius , and therefore no wonder if they desired this safety to their Churches . 2. Note , that this is a thing newly granted now by this Canon , and not any ancient thing . 3. Note , that therefore it was of Humane Right , and not of Divine . 4. Note , that yet this Canon was not received or practised in the Church , but after this the contrary maintained by Councils , and practised , as I shall anon prove . 5. That it is not any antecedent Governing Power that the Canon acknowledgeth in the Pope ; but in honour of the Memory of S. Peter , as they say , ( yet more for their present security ) they give this much to Rome ; it being the vulgar opinion that Peter had been there Bishop . 6. That it is not a Power of judging alone that they give , but of causing the re-examination of Causes by the Council , and adding his assistants in the judgement , and so to have the putting of another into the place forborn till it be done . 7. And I hope still you will remember , that at this Council were no Bishops without the Empire , and that the Roman world was narrower then the Christian world : and therefore , if these Bishops in a part of the Empire had now given ( not a Ruling , but ) a saving Power to the Pope , so far as is there expressed , this had been far from proving that he had a Ruling Power , as the Vice-Christ over all the world , and that by Divine right : Blame me not to call on you to prove this consequence . 8. There is as much for Appeals to Constantinople , that never claimed a Vice-Christship as Iure divino . 6. Your sixth instance out of Basils 74. Epistle I imagine you would have suppressed , if ever you had read that Epistle , and had thought that any others would be induced by your words to read it . I have given you out of this and other Epistles of Basil , a sufficient proof of his enmity to Popery , in my Key , cap. 26. pag. 170 , 171 , 172. and cap. 27. pag. 177. that very Epistle of Basils was written to the Western Bishops , and not to the Bishop of Rome only , nor so much as naming him : The help that he desireth is either a Visit , or perswasive Letters , never mentioning the least Power that the Pope had more then other Bishops , but only the interest of Credit that the Western Bishops had more then Basil and his Companions : saith he [ For what we say is suspected by many , as if for certain private contentions , we would strike a fear and pusillanimity into their minds : But for you , the further you dwell from them , so much the more credit you have with the common people : to which this is added , that the grace of God is a help to you to care for the oppressed . And if many of you unanimously decree the same things , it is manifest that the Multitude of you decreeing the same things , will cause an undoubted reception of your opinion with all . ] You see here upon what terms Liberius his Letters might bestead Eustathius : He having received him into his own Communion , and Eustathius being Orthodox in words , no wonder that the Synod of Tiana receive him upon an Orthodox confession , and their fellow-Bishops reception and Letters : No doubt but the Letters of many another Bishop might have perswaded them to his reception ; though he had more advantages from Rome . Is it not now a fair Argument that you offer ? Liberius ( sometime an Arrian Pope of Rome ) by his Letters prevailed with a Synod at Tyana to restore Eustathius ( an Arrian ) that dissembled an Orthodox confession : What then ? Ergo the Pope of Rome is the Vice-Christ , or was then the Governour of all the Christian world . Soft and fair . 1. Basil gives you other reasons of his interest . 2. He never mentioneth his universall Government , when he had the greatest need to be helped by it , if he had known of such a thing . 3. The Empire is not all the world : If Basil knew the Roman Soveraignty , I am certain he was a wilfull Rebel against it . 7. Your seventh proof is from Chrysostome , who , you say [ expresly desireth Pope Innocent not to punish his adversaries if they do repent : Chrys. Epist. 2. ad Innoc. ] Reply . You much wrong your soul in taking your Religion thus on trust ; some Book hath told you this untruth , and you believe it , and its like will perswade others of it as you would do me . There is no such word in the Epist. of Chrysostome to Innocent , nor any thing like it . 8. Your eighth proof is this [ The like is written to the Pope by the Council of Ephesus in the Case of Iohn of Antioch : Concil . Ephes. p. 2. Act. 5. ] Reply . 1. The first Council at Ephesus ( which no doubt you mean ) is in Binnius enough to make a considerable Volume , and divided into six Tomes , and each of those into Chapters , and not into Acts : And if you expect that I should exactly read six Tomes in Folio before I can answer your severall sentences or shreds , you will put me on a twelve-moneths work to answer a few sheets of Paper . If you mean by [ p. 3. ] [ Tom. 2. ] and by [ Act. 5. ] [ Cap. 5. ] then I must tell you there is not a word of that you say , nor like it . Only there is reference to Celestines and Cyrils Epistles ; and Celestine in his Epistle recited Tom. 1. cap. 17. threatens Nestorius , that if he repent not , he will excommunicate him , and they will have no more communion with him , which others did as well as he ; but not a word of Iohn Bishop of Antioch there . Nor can I find any such thing in the 4. Tome , where Iohn's cause is handled . Indeed the Notes of your Historian divide the Council into Sessions : But in his fifth Session there is nothing of Iohn , but of Nestorius . And in the 4. Sess. Iohn and his Party excommunicate Cyril , Memnon , and theirs . And it was the Council that suspended first , and after excommunicated Iohn . And it is the Emperour to whom he appeals . Indeed your Annotator in Sess. 6. mentions some words of Iuvenals ; that he should at least have regarded the Roman Legates , it being the custome that his Church be directed by that : But I see no proof he brings of those words ; and it is known , that Cyril of Alexandria did preside , and subscribed before the Roman Legates , even to the severall Letters of the Synod , as you may see in Tom. 2. cap. 23. & passim . 2. But if your words were there to be found , what are they to your purpose ? The Pope can punish the Bishop of Antioch : But how ? Why by excommunicating him . True , if he deserve it : that is , by pronouncing him unfit for Christian Communion , and requiring his flock , and exhorting all others to avoid him . And thus may another Bishop do : and thus did Iohn by Cyril of Alexandria , though he was himself of the inferiour Seat : and thus hath the Bishop of Constantinople done by the Bishop of Rome , and so may others . 9. Your ninth proof is from the applications that the Arrians and Athanasius made to Iulius : Ex Athan. ad solit . Epist. Iulius in Lit. ad Arian . apud Athan. Apol. 1. p. 753. Theodoret. lib. 2. c. 4. Athan. Apol. 2. Zozom . l. 3. c. 7. ] Reply . I marvel you urge such rancid instances , to which you have been so fully and so often answered : I refer you to Blondell de Primatu cap. 25. sect . 14 , 15. Whittaker de Roman . Pontif. p. 150. & passim . Dr. Field of the Ch. l. 5. c. 35 , &c. Briefly , this may shew the vanity of your proof . 1. Sozomen in that place saith , that though he alone wrote for them , yet he wrote in the Name and by the consent of all the Bishops of the West . 2. The advantages of Rome by its reputation and greatness , and the number and quality of the Western Bishops , made their Judgement and Communion valuable to others : Basil before cited tells you on what grounds when Churches disagree , those that are distant are supposed to be impartiall , especially when numerous . To which is added , which Basil intimates , that some hope of help from the Secular powers , by the interposition of the Western Bishops , made them the more sought to . 3. And the Primacy of Rome ( though it had no Soveraignty ) made it seem irregular , that a Patriarch should be deposed without the knowledge and judgment of the Patriarchs of the precedent Seats . This was the custome that Iulius spoke of , and the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Alexandria might have said as much , if the Patriarch of Ierusalem or Antioch had been deposed without them . 4. Every Patriarch might absolve the Innocent , and hold communion with them in his own Patriarchate ; and if any be against it , ( as the Arrians here were , and sent false accusations against Athanasius to Iulius ) he may require them to prove their accusations , if they will have him moved by them . Our own Communion with men , is to be directed by the judgment of our own well informed consciences . Iulius desired not any more then to be one with a Council that should decide the case . Councils then had the Rule , and Patriarchs were the most honourable Members of those Councils , but no Rulers of them . 5. Yet Sozomen and others tell you , that Iulius , when he had done his best to befriend Athanasius and Paulus could do no good , nor prevail with the Bishops of the East , till the Emperors commands prevailed : yea the Eastern Bishops tell him that he should not meddle with their proceedings no more then they did with his , when he dealt with the Novatians ; seeing the greatness of Cities maketh not the power of one Bishop greater then another : and so they took it ill that he interposed , though but to call the matter to a Synod , when a Patriarch was deposed . Any Bishop might have attempted to relieve the oppressed as far as Iulius did : especially if he had such advantages as aforesaid to encourage him . All your consequences here therefore are denied . 1. It is denied , that because Iulius made this attempt , that therefore he was Universal Ruler in the Empire . 2. It is denied that it will thence follow , if he were so , that it had been by Divine Right , any more then Constantinople had equall priviledges by Divine Right . 3. It is denied that it hence followeth , that either by Divine or humane right , he had any Power to govern the rest of the world without the Empire . Had you all that you would rack these testimonies to speak , it is but that he was made by Councils and Emperours the chief Bishop or Patriarch in a Nationall Church ( I mean , a Church in one Princes Dominion ) as the Archbishop of Canterbury was in England . But a Nationall or Imperiall Church is not the Universall . And withall , oppressed men will seek relief from any that may help them . In your Margin you adde that [ Concerning S. Athanasius being judged , and rightly , by P. Julius , Chamier acknowledgeth the matter of fact to be so : but against all antiquity pretends that judgment to have been unjust . ] Reply . Take it not ill Sir I beseech you , if I awake your conscience , to tell me , how you dare write so many untruths , which you knew , or might know , I could quickly manifest . Both parts of your saying of Chamier p. 497 , are untrue . 1. The matter of fact is it that he denieth : He proveth to you from Sozomens words , that Athanasius did make no appeal to a Judge , but only fled for help to a friend : He shews you that Iulius did not play the Judge , but the helper of the spoiled , and that it was not an act of Judgement . 2. He therefore accuseth him not of wrong judgeing , but only mentioneth his not hearing the accused , to shew that he did not play the part of a Judge , but a friend , as Chrysostome did by some that fled to him . I pray answer his reasons . And for what you say again in your Margin of Theodoret ; I say again , that he appealeth to the Bishop of Rome for help ; as a person who with the Western Bishops might sway much against his adversaries , but not as to an Universal Governour or Judge : no not as to the Universal Judge of the Church Imperiall ; much less of all the Catholick Churches . 10. Your tenth proof is from Chrysostomes Case , where you say some things untrue , and some impertinent . 1. That Chrysostome appeals to Innocent from the Council of Constantinople is untrue , if you mean it of an Appeal to a superiour Court or Judge ; much more if as to an Universal Judge : But indeed in his banishment , when all other help failed , he wrote to him to interpose and help him as far as he could . I need no other proof of the Negative then , 1. That there is no proof of the Affirmative , that ever he made any such appeal . 2. In his first Epistle to Innocent , he tells him over and over , that [ he appealed to a Synod , and required Iudgement ] and that he was cast into a ship for banishment [ because he appealed to a Synod and a righteous judgement ] never mentioning a word of any such appeal to the Pope . Yea he urgeth the Pope to befriend and help him , by that argument , that he was still ready to stand to uncorrupted Judges , never mentioning the Pope as Judge . By all which it appears it was but the assistance of his intercession that he requireth : and withall , perhaps the excommunicating of the wicked , which another Bishop might have done . Yea , and it seems it was not to Innocent only , but to others with him that he wrote ; for he would scarce else have used the terms [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] But what need we more then his own words to know his request : saith he [ Let those that are found to have done so wickedly , be subject to the penalty of the Ecclesiasticall Laws : but for us that are not convicted , nor found guilty , grant us to enjoy your Letters , and your charity , and all others whose society we did formerly enjoy . ] The Ecclesiastical Laws enabled each Patriarch and Bishop to sentence in his own Diocess ; though the person sentenced lived out of their Diocess , yet they might renounce all communion with him : Churches that have no power over one another , may have communion with one another ; and that communion they may hold and renounce as there is cause . Now if a neighbour Patriarch with so many Bishops of the West had renounc'd Communion with Chrysostomes enemies , and also written their Letters on his behalf , and taken him still as in their Communion , this he hoped would much further his restauration : which yet he doubted , as he had cause . For in his second Epistle he thanks him for doing his part , though it did no good , or did not avail . And it is to be noted , that your Author Nicephorus tells you , lib. 13. cap. 31. that Chrysostomes Letters , and his fellow-Bishops also , and the Clergies of Constantinople , were all written both to the Emperour Honorius and to Innocent : And therefore you may see by that on what account it was , and what help they did expect . The Emperour was not to excommunicate , but his Letters might do much . Well , but you alledge Niceph. l. 13. c. 34. to prove 1. Chrysostomes appeal : But you have better or worse eyes then I , for I can find there no such thing , but a seeking for help as aforesaid . 2. You say [ Innocentius nulls his condemnation , and declares him innocent . ] Ans. So might another Bishop have declared him : But how far it should be regarded , was not in his power . 3. You say he excommunicates Atticus and Theopilus , and 4. Arcadius the Emperor also , and Eudoxia . ] Reply . 1. If he did so and did well , another Bishop might as well have done it . Mennas excommunicated Vigilius of Rome . Excommunicating is not alwayes an act of Jurisdiction , but a renouncing of Communion , with a Ministeriall binding , which any Pastor on a just occasion may exercise , even on those that are not of his Diocess ; examples in Church-history are common . 2. But I would have you answer Dr. Whittakers Reasons , by which he proves that Nicephorus is a fabler in this relation , and that that Epistle is not Innocents which cap. 34. he reciteth , Lib. de pontif . Rom. Contr. 4. Qu. 4. pag. 454 , 455. 1. Neither Socrates , Theodoret or Sozomen make any mention of this excommunication , who yet write much of the Case of Chrysostome and Arcadius : And would these men that lived so near that time have all silenced so great and rare a thing , as the excommunication of the Emperour and Empress , which would have made so great a noise and stir , that yet mention Ambrose his censure of Theodosius ? 2. This Bull of Innocents , ( as Nicephorus would have us believe it ) hath such falshoods , contrary to more credible history , as bewray the forgery . For Socrates lib. 6. c. 19. writeth , that Eudoxia died the same year that Chrysostome was banished , and that Chrysostome died the third year of his banishment : And Sozomen saith l. 8. c. 28. that Chrysostome was in banishment three years after the death of Eudoxia : But , if Nicephorus were to be believed , Eudoxia was alive and excommunicated by Innocent after Chrysostomes death . Nor can it be said that Innocent knew not of her death ; for his Legats were sent to Constantinople in Atticus time , who succeeded Arsacius , who outlived Eudoxia . ] This is the summe of Dr. Whittakers confutation of Nicephorus . And withall , who knows not how full of fictions Nicephorus is ? In your Margin you pretend to confute Chamier p. 498. as saying [ That other Bishops restored those wrongfully deposed as well as the Pope , ] to which you say that [ never single Bishop restored any who were out of their respective Diocess , &c. whereas the Bishop of Rome by his sole and single authority , restored Bishops wrongfully deposed all the Church over . ] Reply . 1. It seems you took Chamiers words on trust : peruse that page , and see his words . 2. Single Bishops have censured , and therefore might as well remit their own censures . Ambrose censured Theodosius , who was no fixed Member of his charge , and he remitted the Censure . Epiphanius presumed even at Constantinople to excommunicate Dioscorus and his Brethren , Socrat. lib. 6. c. 14. And many instances may be brought both of excommunicating , and again receiving to communion by particular Bishops , even as to those that were not of their charge . And if the fact were not proved , yet the forbearance proveth not the want of power . 3. I deny your unproved assertion , that the Bishop of Rome singly restored all the Church over : It is a meer fiction . How many restored he out of the Empire ? Or in the Empire out of his Patriarchate , but suasorily or Synodically . Your next instance of Theodosius his not permitting the Council at Ephesus to be assembled , and his reconciling himself to the Church , is meerly impertinent : We know that he and other Princes usually wrote to Rome , Constantinople , Alexandria , &c. or spoke or sent to more then one of the Patriarchs before they called a Council . You cannot but know that Councils have been called without the Pope : and that neither this , nor an Emperours forsaking his errour , is a sign of the Popes Universal Government . That Emperour gave sufficient testimony , and so did the Bishops that adhered to Dioscorus , that in those dayes the Pope was taken for fallible and controlable , when they excommunicated him : But when you cite out of any Author the words that you build on , I shall take more particular notice of them . Till then this is enough , with this addition , that the Emperours subjection , if he had been subject ( not to an Ambrose , or other Bishop , but ) only to Rome , would have been no proof that any without the Empire were his subjects : No more then the King of Englands subjection to the Archbishop of Canterbury , would have proved that the King of France was subject to him . 12. Your twelfth proof from the Council of Chalcedon , is from a witness alone sufficient to overthrow your cause , as I have proved to you . This Synod expresly determineth , that your Primacy is a novel humane invention ; that it was given you by the Fathers , because Rome was the Imperial Seat. If you believe this Synod , the Controversie is at end : If you do not , why do you cite it ? and why pretend you to believe Generall Councils ? But what have you from this Council against this Council ? Why , 1. You say Martian wrote to Leo , that by the Popes Authority a generall Council might be gathered , in what City of the Eastern Church he should please to choose . ] Reply . 1. Whereas for this you cite Act. Concil . Chalcedon . 1. You tell me not in what Author , whether Crabbe , Binnius , Surius , Nicolinus , or where I must seek it . I have perused the Act. 1. in Binnius , which is 63 pages in Folio ( such tasks your citations set me ) and find no such thing ; and therefore take it to be your mistake . But in the preambul . Epist . I find that Valentinian and Martian desire Leo's prayers , and contrary to your words , that they say [ Hoc ipsum nobis propriis liter is tua sanctitas manifestet , quatenus in omnem Orientem & in ipsam Thraciam & Illyricum sacrae nostrae literae dirigantur , ut ad quendam definitum locum qui nobis placuerit , omnes sanctissimi Episcopi debeant convenire . ] It is not [ qui vobis placuerit ] but [ qui nobis . ] But what if you had spoke truth , doth it follow that Leo was Christs Vicar-general Governour of the world , because that the Soveraign of one Commonwealth did give him leave to choose the place of a Council ? Serious things should not be thus jested with . 2. You say Anatolius and the rest of the Eastern Bishops sent to Pope Leo the professions of their faith by his order . ] Reply . 1. And what then ? therefore Pope Leo was both Governour of them and all the Christian world . You should not provoke men to laughter about serious things , I tell you . Can you prove this Consequence ? Confessions were ordinarily sent in order to Communion , or to satisfie the offended , without respect to superiority . 2. But I see not the proof of your impertinent words . Pulcherius Epistle to Leo , expresseth that Leo had sent his Confession first to Anatolius , to which Anatolius consented . By your Rule then Leo was subject to Anatolius . 3. You say the Popes Legates sate first in Council . ] Reply . What then ? therefore the Pope was Governour of the Christian world , though not a man out of the Empire were of the Council . Are you still in jest ? But if it must be so , then I can prove that others were the Universal Governours , because at Nice , and other Councils they sate before the Legates of the Pope , and in many his Legats had no place . Is this argument good think you ? O unfaithful partiality in the matters of salvation ! 4. You say , they prohibited Dioscorus to sit by his order ] Reply . 1. What then ? therefore he was Universal Governour of the Church . All alike . Any accuser in a Parliament or Synod may require that the Accused may not sit as judge , till he be tried . 2. But did you not know that Leo's Legates were not obeyed ; but that the Gloriosissimi judices & amplissimus senatus , required that the cause should be first made known : and that it was not done till Eusebius Episcop . Dorylaei had read his bill of complaint ? Binnius Act 1. pag. 5. 5. You say the Popes Legates pronounced the Church of Rome to be Caput omnium Ecclesiarum ] Reply . 1. What then ? therefore he was Governour of all the Christian world ? I deny the consequence . You do nothing but beg : not a word of proof . Caput was but membrum principale , the Patriarch primae sedes , and that but in the Empire . 2. The Popes Legates were not the Council , nor judges in their own cause , and not opposing , signifies not alwayes a consent . 3. But the Council do as I said , expresly define the point , both what your Primacy is , and of how long standing , and of whose institution , and that Constantinople on the same grounds had equall priviledges . 6. You say , all the Fathers acknowledged thtmselves Leo 's Children , and wrote to him as their Father . ] Reply . Of this you give me not any proof , but leave me to read 190 pages in Folio , to see whether you say true or no. And what if you do , ( as I believe you do ) can a man of any reading be ignorant how ordinarily other Bishops were stiled Fathers , even by their fellow-Bishops as well as the Bishop of Rome ? 7. You add , that they humbly begged of him that the Patriarch of Constantinople might h●ve the first place next Rome , which notwithstanding the Council had consented to , as had also the third general Council at Ephesus before , yet they esteemed their grants of no sufficient force , till they were confirmed by the Pope . ] Reply . So far were the Council from what you falsly say of them , that they put it into their Canons , that Constantinople should have the second place , yea and equal priviledges with Rome , and that they had this on the same grounds as Rome had its Primacy , even because it was the Imperial Seat : Vid. Bin. pag. 133 , 124. col . 2. And not only Ephesus , but the second general Council at Constantinople , they tell you had decreed the same before . You see then ( contrary to your fiction ) that three general Councils ( of the greatest , likened by Gregory to the 4 Evangelists ) not only judged without the Pope , but by your own confession against him ( for you say , he consented not ) yea so much did they slight the Popes consent , that when his Legates dissented , they were not heard : See Bin. pag. 134 , 136. They persisted in the Council to maintain their Canon 38. notwithstanding the contradiction of Lucretius and Paschasinus , and by the Judges it was accordingly pronounced , p 137. And unanimously the whole Synod consented , never stopping at the Roman dissent . Pergamius Bishop of Antioch saith [ in omnibus sanctissimum Archiepiscopum Regiae civitatis novae Romae in honore & cura sicut Patrem praecipuum habere nos convenit . ] No man contradicted this : And is not this as much or more , then you alledge as spoke to Leo ? They call Leo ( you say ) Father : And the Bishop of Constantinople is pronounced the Chief Father in all things , in honour and Cure. And Eusebius Bishop of Doryl . the chief adversary of Dioscorus , witnessed that he himself , in the presence of the Clergy of Constantinople , did read this Canon to the Pope at Rome , and he received it . Upon which your Historian hath no better an observation , then that [ either Eusebius lyed , or else at that hour he deceived Leo. ] It s true that the Synod writ to him for his consent : but not as suspending any of their Decrees on it ; but telling him over and over , that the things were by them defined and confirmed already , pag. 140. that which they desired of him was , what Synods ordinarily did of Bishops of their Communion that were absent [ Haec , sicut propria , & amica , & ad decorem convenientissima , dignare complecti , sanctissime & beatissime pater . ] 13. In your Margin you tell me that Agapet in the time of Iustinian depo●ed Anthymius in Constantinople against the will of the Emperour & the Empress . ] Reply . 1. And doth it follow , that because he did it , therefore he did it justly , yea and as the Governour of that Church ? when Menna Bishop of Constantinople excommunicated Pope Vigilius , was he not even with him ? and did that prove that Rome was subject to Constantinople ? Niceph. l. 17. c. 26. When Dioscorus excommunicated Leo , and an Eastern Synod excommunicated Iulius ( Sozom. l. 3. c. 11. ) that proves not that they did it justly , or as his Governours . Honorius the Emperour deposed Boniface 1. Othe with a Synod deposed Iohan. 13. Iustinian deposed Sylverius and Vigilius : Will you confess it therefore justly done ? 2. As to the history I refer you to the full answer of Blondel to Perron . cap. 25. sect . 84 , 85. 3. Usurpation and deposing one another by rash sentences was then no rare thing , Eusebius of Nicomedia threatened the deposing of Alexander of Constantinople , who sure was not his subject , Socrat. lib. 1. c. 37. ( vel . 25. ) Acacius of Caesarea and his party depose not only Eleusius , Basilius and many others , but with them also Macedonius Bishop of Constantinople : Socrat. lib. 2. c. 33. ( vel . 42. ) Did this prove Acacius the Vice-Christ ? What should I instance in Theophilus actions against Chrysostome , or Cyrils against Iohan. Antiochen . and many such like ? 4. Still you suppose one Empire to be all the Christian world : We must grant you that in all your instances ! 14. For what you alledge from Gregory , I shall give you enough of him anon for your satisfaction , if you will be indifferent . As to your citation what can I say ? A years time were little enough to search after your citations , if you should thus write but many more sheets . ( If a man had so much time and so little wit as to attend you ) You turn me to Greg. cap. 7. ep . 63. but what Book , or what Indiction , you tell me not : But whatever it be , false it must needs be , there being no one Book of his Epistles ( according to all the Editions that I have seen ) where c. 7. and ep . 63. do agree or meet together . But at last I found the words in lib. 7. c. 63. ep . 63. To which I say , that either your great Gregory by [ subject ] meant that the Bishop of Constantinople was of an inferiour Order , as the Patriarch of Alexandria and Antioch were to Constantinople , that yet had no Government of them ; or else he could say and unsay : But I doubt not but this was all his sense . But if it had been otherwise , Constantinople and the Empire was not all the Christian world . Your next citation is lib. 7. ep . 37. But it s falsly cited : There is no such word ; and you are in so much haste for an answer , that I will not read over all Gregories Epistles . 15. You say Cyril would not break off Communion with Nestorius till Celestine had condemned him ; of this you give us no proof : But what if it be true ? Did you think that it proved the Pope to be the Vice-Christ ? Prudence might well make Cyril cautelous in excommunicating a Patriarch . And we still grant you , that the Order of the Empire had given the Roman Bishop the Primacy therein : and therefore no wonder if his consent were expected . But that Nestorius was condemned by a Council needs no proof : And what if Celestine began and first condemned him ? I she therefore the Universal Bishop ? But it was not Celestine alone , but a Synod of the Western Bishops . And yet Cyril did not hereupon reject him without further warning : And what was it that he threatned , but to hold no Communion with him ? Vid. Concil . Ephes. 1. Tom. 1. cap. 14. And though Pride made excommunication an Engine to advance one Bishop above others , I can easily prove that if I had then lived , it had been my duty to avoid Communion with a notorious Heretick , though he had been Pope . The long story that you next tell , is but to fill up Paper , that Cyril received the Popes Letters , that Nestorius repented not , that he accused Cyril , that Theodosius wrote to Celestine about a Council ; and many such impertinent words : But the proof is , that Cyril was the Popes chief Legate Ordinary ! Forsooth because in his absence he was the chief Patriarch ; therefore he is said Celestini locum tenere , which he desired . Well , let your Pope sit highest , seeing he so troubles all the world for it . Christ will shortly bid him come down lower , when he humbleth them that exalt themselves . That Cyril subscribed before Philip , you may see , Tom. 2. cap. 23. but where I may find that Philip subscribed first , you tell me not . But what if the Archbishop of Canterbury sate highest , and subscribed first in England ? Doth it follow that he was Governour of all the world ? no nor of York it self neither . 16. And here you tell us of Iuvenal , Act. 6. Repl. 1. The Council is not divided into Acts in Binnius , but many Tomes and Chapters : but your words are in the Notes added by your historian ; but how to prove them Iuvenals words I know no● , nor find in him or you . 2. But why were not the antecedent words of the Bishop of Antioch and his Clergy as valid to the contrary , as Iuvenals for this ? 3. If these words were spoken , they only import a Iudgeing in Council as a chief member of it , and not of himself . And his apostolica ordinatione is expresly contrary to the ●orecited Canon of the Council of Chalcedon , and therefore not to be believed . Yet some called things done Ordinatione apostolica , which were ordained by the Seats which were held Apostolike . 4. But still you resolve to forget that Antioch or the Empire extended not to the Antipodes , nor contained all the Catholick Church . 17. You next tell me of Valentinians words A. D. 445. Reply . It is the most plausible of all your testimonies , but worth nothing to your end . For 1. Though Theodosius name pro forma were at it , yet it was only Valentinians act , and done at Rome , where Leo prevailed with a raw unexperienced Prince to word the Epistle as he desired ; so that it is rather Leo's , then the Emperours originally : And Leo was the first that attempted the excessive advancement of his Seat above the rest of the Patriarchs . 2. It is known that the Emperours sometime gave the Primacy to Rome , and sometime to Constantinople , as they were pleased or displeased by each of them . So did Iustinian , who A. D. 530. Lampadio & Oreste Coss. C. de Episcopis lib. 1. lege 24. saith [ Constantinopolitana Ecclesia omnium aliarum est Caput ] [ The Church of Constantinople is the Head of all other . ] 3. It is your fiction , and not the words of Valentinian ( or Leo ) that [ the succession from Peter was the foundation of Romes Primacy . ] It was then believed that Antioch and other Churches had a succession from Peter . It is the Merit of Peter , and the Dignity of the City of Rome , and the Authority of the Synod joyntly that he ascribeth it to . The Merit of Peter was nothing but the Motive upon which Leo would have men believe the Synod gave the Primacy to Rome : And Hosius in the Council of Sardica indeed useth that as his motive , [ Let us for the honour of Peter , &c. ] They had a conceit that where Peter last preached , and was martyred and buried , and his relicts lay , there he should be most honoured . 4. Here is not the least intimation that this Primacy was by Gods appointment , or the Apostles , but the Synods : Nor that it had continued so from Peters dayes , but that joyntly for Peters Merits ( and honour ) and the Cities dignity , it was given by the Synod . 5. And it was but Leo's fraud to perswade the raw Emperour of the authority of a Synod , which he would not name , because the Synod of Sardica was in little or no authority in those daies . The rest of the reasons were fraudulent also ; which though they prevailed with this Emperour , yet they took not in the East . And Leo himself it seems durst not pretend to a Divine Right and Institution , nor to a succession of Primacy from the Apostles . 6. But nothing is more false then your assertion , that he extendeth the power [ over the whole visible Church . ] The word [ Vniversitas ] is all that you translate in your comment , [ the whole visible Church ] As if you knew not that there was a Roman Vniversality , & that Roman Councils were called Vniversall , when no Bishops out of that one Common-wealth were present ; and that the Church in the Empire is oft called [ the whole Church . ] Yea [ the Roman world ] was not an unusuall phrase . And I pray you tell me , what power Valentinian had out of the Empire ? who yet interpos●th his authority there , [ Nequid praeter authoritatem sedis istiusilli●itum , &c. ] [ & ut p●x ubique servetur . ] And in the end , it is All the Provinces , that is , the Vniversity that he extends his precepts to . 7. And for that annexed [ that without the Emperours Letters , his authority was to be of force through France ; for what shall not be lawfull , &c. ] I Ans. No wonder : ●or France was part of his Patriarcha●e , and the Laws of the Empire had confirmed his Patriarchal power : and those Laws might seem , with the reverence of Synods , without new Letters , to do much : But yet it seems , that the rising power needed this extraordinary secular help : Hilary it seems with his Bishops thought , that even to his Patriarch he owed no such obedience as Leo here by force exacteth . So that your highest witness ( Leo by the mouth of Valentinian ) is for no more then a Primacy , with a swelled power in the Roman Universality ; but they never medled with the rest of the Christian world : It seems by all their writings and attempts , this never came into their thoughts . And it s no credit to your cause , that this Hilary was ( by Baronius confession ) a man of extraordinary holiness and knowledge , and is Sainted among you , and hath his Day in your Calendar . And yet Valentinian had great provocation to interpose ( if Leo told him no untruths , for his own advantage ) : For it was no less then laying siege to Cities , to force Bishops on them without their consent , that he is accused of ; which shews to what odious pride and usurpation , prosperity even then had raised the Clergy : fitter to be lamented with floods of tears , then to be defended by any honest Christian : Leo himself may be the principal instance . 18. You next return to the Council of Chalcedon , Act. 1. & seq . where 1. You refer me to that Act. 1. where is no such matter : but you add [ & seq . ] that I may have an hundred and ninety pages in Folio to peruse , and then you call for a speedy answer : But the Epistle to Leo is in the end of Act. 16. pag. ( Bin. ) 139. 2. And there you do but falsly thrust in the word [ thou governst us ] and so you have made your self a witness , because you could find none : The words are [ Quibus tu quidem sicut membris caput praeeras , in his qui tuum tenebant ordinem benevolentiam praeferens : Imperatores vero adornandum decentissime praesidebant . ] Now [ to go before ] with you must be [ to Govern ] : If so , then Aurelius at the Council of Carthage , and others in Councils that presided , did govern them . It was but [ benevolentiam praetulisse ] that they acknowledged : And that the Magistrates not only presided indeed , but did the work of Judges and Governours , is express in the Acts ; it s after wrote in that Epistle [ Haec sunt , quae tecum , qui spiritu praesens eras , & complacere tanquam fratribus deliberasti , & qui pene per tuorum vicariorum sapientiam videbaris , à nobis effecimus ] And [ haec à tua sanctitate fuerint inchoata ] and yet [ Qui enim locum vestrae sanctitatis obtinent , iis ita constitutis vehementer resistere tentaverunt . ] From all which it appeareth , that he only is acknowledged to lead the way , and to please them as his brethren , and to help them by the wisdome of his substitutes ; and yet that the Council would not yield to their vehement resistance of one particular . But I have told you oft enough that the Council shall be judge , not in a complementall Epistle , but in Can. 28. where your Primacy is acknowledged ; but 1. As a gift of the Fathers . 2. And therefore as new . 3. For the Cities dignity . 4. And it can be of no further extent then the Empire ; the Givers and this Council being but the Members of that one Commonwealth : So that all is but a novel Imperial Primacy . 19. And for the words of Vincentius Lirinensis , c. 9. what are they to your purpose ? [ quantum loci authoritate ] signifieth no more then we confess , viz. that in those times the greatness of Rome , and humane Ordination thereupon , had given them that precedency , by which their [ loci authoritas ] had the advantage of any other Seat : Or else they had never swelled to their impious Usurpation . I have plainly proved to you in the End of my [ safe Religion ] that Vincentius was no Papist . But you draw an argument from the word [ sanxit ] . As if you were ignorant that bigger words then that are applied to them that have no governing power ; Quantum in se sanxit , he charged them that they should not innovate : And what ? is it P. Stephen that is the Law-giver of the Law against unjust innovation ? Did not Cyprian believe that this was a Law of Christ before Stephen medled in that business ? What Stephens authority was in those dayes , we need no other witnesses then Firmilian , Cyprian , and a Council of Carthage , who slighted the Pope as much as I do . I pray answer Cyprians testimony and arguments against Popery , cited by me in the Disp. 3. of my [ safe Religion . ] 20. You say you will conclude with the saying of your priest Philip , and Arcadius at Ephesus : And 1. You take it for granted that all consented to what they contradicted not : But your word is all the proof of the consequence . Nothing more common , then in Senates and Synods to say nothing to many passages in speeches , not consented to . If no word not consented to in any mans speech must pass without contradiction , Senates and Synods would be no wiser Societies then Billingsgate affords ; nor more harmonious then a Fair or vulgar rout : What confusion would contradictions make among them ? 2. You turn me to Tom. 2. pag. 327. Act. 1. I began to hope of some expedition here : But you tell me not at all what Author you use : And in Binnius which I use , the Tomes are not divided into Acts , but Chapters , and p●g . 327. is long b●fore this Counc●l . So ●hat I must believe you , or search paper enough for a weeks reading to disprove you : This once I will believe you , to save me that labour , and supposing all rightly cited , I reply : 1. Philip was not the Council . You bear witness to your selves , therefore your witness is not credible . Yet I have given you instances in my [ Key ] ( which I would transcribe if I thought that you could not as well read Print as M. S. ) of higher expressions then Caput and fundamentum , given to Andrew by Isychius , and equal expressions to others , as well as Rome and Peter . And who is ignorant that knowe●h any thing of Church-history , that others were called successours of Peter as well as the Bishop of Rome ? And that the Claves regni were given to him , is no proof that they were not given also to all the rest of the Apostles . And where you say [ Arcadius condemneth Nestorius for contemning the command of the Apostolick Sea. ] ( You tell me not where to find it . ) I answer you still , that its long since your Sea begun to swell and rage , but if you must have us grant you all these consequences , [ Celestine commanded , therefore he justly commanded , therefore another might not as well have commanded him : ( as one Pastor may do another , though equall , in the name of Christ ) : and therefore he had power to command without the Empire , even over all the Catholick Church ; and therefore the Council was of this mind : yea , therefore the universal Church was of this mind , that the Pope was its universal head . ] You still are guilty of sporting about serious things , and moving pity , instead of offering the least proof . Yet fear you not to say [ that in the time of the holy Oecumenical Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon , the universal consent of the whole Catholick Church was for you in this point . ] The Lord keep our consciences from being the servants of our opinions or interests . 1. Was the Popes Legate the whole Catholick Church ? 2. Was there one man at either of these Councils but within the Empire , yea a piece of the Empire ? So that they were but such as we now call National Councils , that is , consisting only of the subjects of one Republick . 3. Did the Council speak a word for your power without the Empire ? 4. Do they not determine it so expresly to be of humane right , that Bellarmine hath nothing regardable to say against it ( Can. 28. Conc. Chalced. ) but that they spoke falsly ? And yet your opinion or interest hath tempted you to appeal . viz. to the Sun that there is no such thing as light . 21. After the conclusion you have a supernumerary in your Margin , from Greg. lib. 10. Epist. 30. But there is no such word in that Epistle , nor is it of any such subject . But is the 31. Epistle its like that your leader meant . And there 's no more but that a Bishop not named ( person or place ) having fallen into Schism voluntarily , swore never more to depart from the Unity of the Catholick Church , or the sea of Rome . But 1. So may a Bishop of the Roman Province do ( or Patriarchate ) without believing Rome to be the Universal Head. So might one in any other Province have done : And yet it follows not that he ought to do so , because he did so . You see now what all your proofs are come to , and how shamefully naked you have left your cause . In summ , of all the testimonies produced , 1. You have not named one man that was a Papist ( Pope Leo was the nearest of any man ) nor one testimony that ever a Pope of Rome had the Government of all the Church without the verge of the Roman Empire ; but only that he was to the Roman Church , as the Archbishop of Canterbury to the English Church : And as between Canterbury and York , so between Rome and Constantinople , there have been contentions for preheminency : But if I can prove Canterbury to be before York , or Rome before Constantinople , that will prove neither of them to be Ruler at the Antipodes , or of all the Christian world . 2. Much less have you proved that ever any Church was of this opinion , that the Pope was by Divine Right the Governour of all the world , when you cannot prove one man of that opinion . 3. Much less have you proved a succession of such a Church from the Apostles , having said as much as nothing concerning the first 300 years . 4. And yet much less have you proved , that the whole Catholick Church was of this opinion . 5. And least of all have you proved , that the whole Church took this Primacy of Rome , to be of necessity to the very Being of the Church , and to our salvation ; and not only ad melius esse , as a point of Order . So that you have left your Cause in shameful nakedness , as if you had confessed , that you can prove nothing . In the end you return to terms . To what you say about the word [ Christians ] I only say , that it s but equivocally applied to any that profess not all the Essentialls of Christianity , of which Popery is none , any more then Pride is . About the word [ Monarch ] in good sadness , do you deny the Pope to be [ an imperious sole Commander . ] Which of these is it that you deny ? not that he is [ a Commander ] not that he is [ imperious ] not that he is [ sole ] in his Soveraignty ! I would either you or we knew what you hold or deny . But perhaps the next words shew the difference [ as Temporal Kings . ] But this saith not a word wherein they differ from [ Temporal Kings ] : sure your following words shew not the difference . 1. Kings may [ receive power from Christ. ] 2. Kings must rule [ in meekness , charity and humility . ] But I think the meekness , charity and humility of Popes , hath been far below even wicked Kings ( if cruel murdering Christians for Religion , and setting the world on fire may be witness ) as your own Histories assure us . 3. The Government of Kings also is for [ mens eternal good ] however Papists would make them but their executioners in such things . 4. Brethren , as such , are no subjects : and therefore if the Pope Rule men but as Brethren , he rules them not by Governing authority at all . 5. Children to him we are not : You must mean it but Metaphorically ! And what mean you then ? Is it that he must do it in Love for their good ? So also must Kings : So that you have yet exprest no difference at all . But our Question is not new , nor in unusuall terms : What Soveraignty you claim , you know or should know . Are you ignorant that Bellarmine , Boverius , and ordinarily your Writers labour to prove that the Government of the Church is Monarchicall , and that the Pope is the Monarch ? the supream Head and Ruler , which in English is the Soveraign . Are you ashamed of the very Cause or Title of it , which you will have necessary to our salvation ? Next you say , that you [ very much dislike the Title of Vice-Christ , as proud and insolent , and utterly disclaim from it , neither was it ever given by any sufficient authority to your Popes , or did they ever accept of it . ] Reply . Now blessed be God that makes sin a shame to it self , that the Patrons of it dare scarce own it without some paint or vizard . 1. Is not the very life of the Cause between you and us , whether the Pope be the Universal Head of the Church , vice Christi . & vicarius Christi ? Are not these the most common titles that Papists give them , and that they take unto themselves ? Nay look back into your own papers here pag. 6. whether you say not that they are [ Instituted Governours in Christs place of his whole Visible Church . ] 2. Doth not Bellarmine ( as I have cited elsewhere ) labour to prove , that it is not as an Apostle that the Pope succeeds Peter , but as a Head of the Church in Christs stead ? Doth not Boverius ( cited in my Key ) labour to prove him the Vicar of Christ , and to be Vice Christi ? And what fitter English have we for the Kings deputy in a distant Kingdom , who is Vice Regis , then the Vice-King ? Or a Chancelors deputy , then [ the Vicechancellor ] : Vice Christi is your own common word , and Vicarius Christi ; none more common scarce then the latter : And what English is there fitter for this , then the Vice-Christ , or Vicar of Christ ? It is indeed the very term that expresseth properly as man can speak , the true point and life of the Controversie between us . And how could you suffer your pen to set down that the Popes did never accept of this , when it is their own common phrase [ Vice Christi , & Vicarius Christi ? ] But here again remember ( and let it be a witness against you ) that you dislike and utterly disclaim the very name that signifieth the Papal Power , as Proud and Insolent . And if you abhor Popery while you tice men to it , let my soul abhor it , and let all that regard their souls abhor it . Blessed be that Light that hath brought it to be numbred with the works of darkness . Were it not more tedious then necessary , I would cite you the words [ Vice Christi & Vicarius Christi ] out of Popes and multitudes of your Writers . But alas that 's not the highest : The Vice-God is a Title that they have not thought insolent , or words of the same signification . Would you have my proof ? Pardon it then for proving your pen so false and deceitfull ( that 's not my fault . ) Pope Iulius the second in his General Council at the Laterane , saith ( Cont. Pragmat . sanct . monitor . Binnius Vol. 4. pag. 560. ) [ Though the institutions of sacred Canons , holy fathers , and Popes of Rome — and their Decrees be judged immutable , as made by Divine inspiration ; yet the Pope of Rome , who , though of unequal Merits , holdeth the place of the eternall King , and the Maker of all things , and all Laws on earth , may abrogate these decrees when they are abused . ] Here from your Judge of faith it self , you hear [ that the Pope holds the place of the eternal King , the Maker of all things and Laws . ] Pope Sixtus Quartus in passagio sive Bulla contra Turcos , sent to Philip Palatine Elector 1481. in Breheri Tom. 2. pag. 162. Vol. 2. saith [ Vniversos Christianos Principes , ac omnes Christi fid●les requirere , eisque mandare Vice Dei , cujus loc●m , quamvi● immeriti tenemus in terris — ] that is , we are constrained [ to require all Christian Princes , and all believers of Christ , and to command them , in the stead of God , whose place on earth we hold , though undeserving — ] Here is a Vice-God , holding his place on earth , and commanding all Princes and Christians to a War against the Turks in Gods stead I know to a particular people Gods Embassadours are said to speak in his name and stead , as if God did beseech men by us , 2 Cor. 5.19 . But this is only as to a narrow and limited Embassage , not that they hold Gods place on earth , as Rulers over the Universal Church , &c. The same Pope Sixtus 4 ▪ saith ibid. pag. 163. [ Sola superest Romana sedes : sedes utique immaculati agni : sedes Viventis in secula seculorum : Haec quippe praedictas Patriarchales genuit Ecclesias ; quae quasi filiae in ejus gremio residebant , & in circuitu tanquam famulae in ipsius adsistebant obsequio . ] that is , [ Only the Roman seat remaineth : even the seat of the Immaculate Lambe : the seat of him that liveth for ever ( my flesh trembleth to write these things ) : This did beget the foresaid Patriarchal Churches ( notorious falshood ! ) which rested as daughters in her bosome , and as servants stood about in her obedience . ] Here you see from the Pope himself , that the other Patriarchs are his servants , and so to obey him ; and that Rome begot them all ( that were before it , except Constantinople ) and neither made Christians nor Patriarchs by it , and that Rome is now become the seat of the Immaculate Lambe , and of him that liveth for ever . ] Truly the reading of your own Historians , and the Popes Bulls , &c. hath more perswaded me , that the Pope is Antichrist , then the Apocalyps hath done ( because I distrusted my understanding of it . ) Benedictus de Benedictis wrote a Book against Dr. Whittaker , to prove that it s as false that the Pope is Antichrist , as that Christ is Antichrist , and dedicated it to Pope Paul. 5. with this inscription , Paul. 5. Vice Deo : To Paul 5. the Vice-God . ] printed at Bononia 1608. Caraffa's Theses printed at Naples 1609. had the same inscription [ Paulo 5. Vice Deo ] to Paul 5. the Vice-God . Alcazar in Apocal. in carmine ad Johannem Apostolum , saith of the same Pope Paul. 5. [ Q●em numinis instar , Vera colit pietas . ] [ whom as a God true piety adores . ] Christopher Marcellus in his Oration before Pope Iulius 2. in the approved Council at Laterane , Sess. 4. ( and you take not contradicting to be consenting ; and verily to such blasphemy in a Council , so it is ) saith thus [ Quum tantae reipublicae unicus atque supremus Princeps fueris institutus , beatissime pontifex , cui summa data potestas , ad divinum injunctum imperium , &c. ] — & ante [ sub tuo imperio ] & [ Vnus princeps qui summam in terris habeat potestatem . ] But these are small things [ Teque omnis aevi , omnium seculorum , omnium gentium Principem & Caput appellant . ] But yet [ the Prince and Head of all ages and Nations ] is too low [ Cura Pater beatissime ut sponsae tuae forma decórque redeat . ] But yet to make the Church [ his spouse ] is nothing [ Cura denique ut salutem quam dedisti nobis , & vitam & spiritum non amittamus : Tu enim Pastor , tu medicus , tu gubernator , tu cultor , tu denique alter Deus in terris . ] That is , [ See that we l●se not the health that thou hast given us , and the life and spirit . For thou art the P●stor , the Physician — to conclude , thou art another God on earth . ] If you say that the Pope accepteth not this ; I answer it was in an oration spoken in a Generall Council , in his presence , without contradiction , yea by his own command , as the Oratour professeth [ Iussisti tu , Pater sancte , & parui ] [ you commanded me , Holy Father , and I obeyed , ] Binnius pag. 562 , 563 , 564. you may find all this . In Gl●ss extrav . g. Ioan. 22. de Verb. signific . c●p . Cum inter , in Gl●ssa : Credere Dominum n●strum D●um Papam conditorem dictae decretalis & istius , non potuisse statuere prout statuit , haereti●um censeatur . ] So that by your Law we must believe the power of your Lord God the Pope , or be hereticks . If you meet with any Impressions that leave out [ Deum ] take Rivets note [ haberi in editione formata jussu Greg. 12. ● corectoribus Pontificiis , nec in censuris Gl●ssae j●ssu Pii 5. editis , quae in expurgatorio indice habintur , nomen Dei erasum fuisse . Pope Nicolas 3. de El●ct . cap. fundamenta in 6. saith [ that Peter was ●ssumed into the Society of the individuall Trinity . Angelus Polit. in Orat. ad Alex. 6. Pontificem ad Divinitatem ipsam subl●tum , asserit : He saith , the Pope was taken up to the Godhead it self . At the foresaid Council at Laterane , Antonius Puccius in an Oration before Leo the tenth in the Council , and after published by his favour , said [ Divinae tuae Majestatis conspectus , rutilante cujus fulgore imbecilles oculimei caligant . ] His eyes were darkened with beholding the Popes Divine Majesty . ] None contradicted this . In the same Council , Simon B●gnius Modrusiensis Episcopus , in an O●acion S●ss . 6. calls Leo [ The Lion of the Tribe of Juda , the root of Jesse , him whom they had looked for as the Saviour . ] In the same Council , S●ss . 10 Stephanus Patracensis Archiop . saith [ Reges in compedibus magnitudinis magni Regis liga , & nobiles in manicis ferreis censurarum constringe , quoniam tibi data est omnis potestas in coelo & in terra — ] and before [ qui totum dicit , nihil excludit . ] So that all Power in heaven and earth is given to the Pope . Paulus Aemilius de gestis Francorum , lib. 7. saith , that the Sicilian Embassadours lay prostrate at the Popes feet , and thrice repeated , [ Thou that takest away the sins of the world , have mercy on us . ] And prove to me that ever any such man was reprehended for these things by the Popes of late . August . Triumphus in Praefat. sum . ad Ioan. 22. saith [ That the Popes power is infinite : for great is the Lord , and great is his power , and of his greatness there is no end . And qu. 36. ad 6. he saith that [ the Pope influenceth ( or giveth ) the Motion of direction , and the sense of cognition , into all the Members of the Church , for in him we live and move and have our being . ] And a little after he saith , [ The will of God , and consequently of the Pope , who is his Vicar , is the first and highest cause of all corporal and spiritual motions . ] Would you have any more witness of the falshood of your words : saith Zabarella I.C. lib. de schism . Innocent . 7. & Bened. pag. 20. [ For this long time past , and even to this day , those that would please the Popes , perswaded them that they could do all things : and so that they might do what they pleased , even things unlawfull , and so more than God. ] Antonius parte 3. tit . 21. cap. 5. § . 4. saith [ The Pope receiveth from the faithfull adorations , prostrations , and kisses of his feet , which Peter permitted not from Cornelius , nor the Angel from John the Evangelist . ] Cardinalis Bertrandus Tract . de origin . jurisd . q. 4. num . 4. ( & in Glos. extrag . com . l. 1. fol. 12. ) saith [ Because Iesus Christ the son of God while he was in this world , and even from eternity , was a Naturall Lord , and by Naturall right could pronounce the sentence of deposition on Emperours , or any others , and the sentence of damnation , and any other , as upon the Persons which he had created , and endowed with naturall and free gifts , and also did conserve ; it is his will that on his account his Vicar may do the same things . For the Lord should not seem discreet ( that I may speak with his reverence ) unless he had left behind him one Vicar that can do all these things . ] Tell me now whether you said true in the Paragraph about the Title Vice-Christ ? yea , whether it be not much more that hath been given and accepted ? But what name else is it that you agree on as proper to express the power which is controverted ? I know no name so fitted to the reall controversie ? And therefore in disclaiming the Name , for ought I know , you disclaim your Cause , and confess the shame of Popery . If he that seeks to be King of England , should say he disclaimeth the Title of King as insolent and proud , doth he not allow me to conclude the like of the thing , which he concludeth of the proper name ? The name [ Papa ] [ Pope ] you know ( its like ) was usually by the ancients given to other Bishops as well as to him of Rome ; and therefore that cannot distinguish him from other men : The same I may say of the Titles [ Dominus , Pater sanctissimus , beatissimus , Dei amantissimus , and many such like ] — And for [ summus Pontifex ] Baronius tells you ( Martyrol . Rom. April . 9. ) that [ it was the ancient custome of the Church to call all Bishops , not only Pontifices , Popes , but the Highest or Chief Popes ] citing Hierom. Ep. 99. And for the word Head of the Church , or of all Bishops , it hath been given to Constantinople , that yet claimeth not ( as Nilus tells you ) neither a precedency to Rome , nor an Universall Government , much less as the Vice-Christ . And that the Bishop of Constantinople was called [ the Apostolick Vniversal Bishop ] Baronius testifieth from an old Vaticane monument , which on the other side calls Agapetus [ Episcoporum Princeps . ] The Title [ Apostolick ] was usually given to others . Hierusalem was called [ the mother of the Churches . ] A Council gave Constantinople the Title of [ Vniversal Patriarch ] which though Gregory pronounced so in pious and intolerable for any to use , yet the following Pop●s made an agreement with Constantinople , that their Patriarch should keep his Title of Vniversal Patriarch ] and the Bishop of Rome be called [ the Vniversal Pope ; ] which can signifie nothing proper to him ( the name Pope being common ) more then [ Vniversal Patriarch ] doth . The Foundations , and Pillars of the Church , and the Apostles successors , yea Peters successors , were Titles given to others as well as him : and more then these . It being therefore the point in controversie between us , whether the Bishop of Rome , be in the place of Christ or as his Vicar , the Head , Monarch , or Governour of the Church universal ; and the terms [ Vice Christi & Vicarius Christi ] being those that Popes and Papists choose to signifie their claim , what other should I use ? As to what you say of the Council of Constance ( which you must say also of Basil , and of the French Church , Venetians , &c. ) you pretend the doubt to be only between Ordinary and extraordinary Governours . But 1. of old the Councils called Generall ( indeed but of one Principality ) were more ordinary , then now the Pope hath brought them to be : ( and I blame him not , if he will hold his greatness , to take heed of them . ) 2. The way not to have been extraordinary , if the Council of Const●nce had been infallible , or of sufficient power , who decreed that there should be one every ten years . 3. The Councils that continue so many years as that at Trent did , are then become an Ordinary Government . 4. What is given to the Church Representative , is by many of you given to the Church reall or essentiall ( as you call it ) which is ordinarily existent , only not capable of exerting the power it hath : The singulis major , at universis minor , is no rare doctrine with you . 5. But let it be as extraordinary as you please , if while these Councils sit , the Pope lose his Headship , your Church is then two Churches specifically distinct , and the form of it changeth when a Council sitteth : which is a two-headed , mutable Church , not like the Spouse of Jesus Christ. 6. As your Popes are said to live in their constitutions , and Laws , when the person dyeth ; and your Church is not thought by you to die with them ; so why may not Councils do ? The Laws of Councils live when they sit not , and the French think that these Laws are above the Pope ; though I shewed you even now that Iulius 2. in Conc. Later . concluded otherwise of Decrees , and the Council of the Popes power . 7. If a Nation be Governed by Trienniall ( and so Decenniall ) Parliaments as the highest power , and Councils of State in the intervalls , who shall be accountable to Parliaments ; will you say that these Parliaments are extraordinary , and not the ordinary Soveraign ? No doubt they are . And the Council of State is not the Soveraign , but the chief Officer or Magistrate for execution in the intervals . Having begun this Reply May 2. I was again taken off it about May 5. or 6. And about May 11. I received a Letter from you , wherein you tell me of a quarter of a years expectation . Be patient good Sir ! These matters concern Eternity : Believe it , I have somewhat else to do of greater hast and moment . Even some of your own friends find me more work . What if ten of you write to me at once , is it fair for each one of you to call for an answer as hastily as if I had but one in hand ? This is not my case , but it is more then thus . Fear not lest I give you over , till you first prove the deserter , and turn your back ( if God enable me : ) Only I must tell you , that I take it for a flight already , and a forsaking of your Cause , that you turn to these rambling impertinent citations and discourses , in stead of a Syllogisticall arguing the case , and that when you had spoken so much for it . I have here ( that you may have no cause of exception , nor pretence of cause ) in this Paper replyed to your last ; and in another proved the Visibility of our Church syllogistically ; and ( as overplus ) also disproved yours , and proved it to be an upstart , the sprout of Pride , upon occasion of the greatness of the City of Rome , and of the forming the Church to the Civil State , in that one Empire . If now you will deny to do the like , I shall conclude you fly and forsake your Cause . Besides your Rejoinder to this Reply , I principally expect that you syllogistically ( in close and faithfull Arguing ) do prove to us the Affirmative of these Questions following . Qu. [ Whether the Church , of which the subjects of the Pope are Members , hath been visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . ] In which these three Questions are involved , which you have to prove : 1. Whether the Papacy , that is , the Vniversal Monarchy , or Soveraign Government , or Vice-Christship of the Pope ( take which term you like ) hath continued from Christs dayes till now . 2 Whether all the Catholick Church did still submit to it , and were subjects of the Pope . 3. Whether those that did submit to it , did take it to be necessary to the Being of the Church , and the salvation of all believers , or only to the more peaceable and better being . ] If you call for Catalogues , or proof of Visible succession , and pretend so high to it your selves , and yet will give us none when we importune you to it , you tell us that you seek not to reveal the truth and Church but to hide them . I urge you the harder ( though it may seem immodest ) because as the Cause doth lie upon your proof here , so I know you cannot do it : Pardon my confidence : I know you can do no more then Baronius , Bellarmine , Bullinger , &c. set together have done : and therefore I say , I know you cannot do it . I know your Vice-Christ ( I doubt the Antichrist ) is of humane introduction , springing out of a Nationall ( I mean Imperiall ) Primacy , which also was of humane invention . It was but one Civil Government or Commonwealth , in which your Bishop had his Primacy , and that long without a Governing power . And this National Primacy , because of the greatness of the Empire , was at last called Universal : And even this was long after the dayes of Christ ( some hundreds of years ) a stranger in the Church , unless as the Greatness of the Church of Rome , and advantages of the place , did give that Church such authority as ariseth from magnitude , splendour , honour , and accidental advantages from the populousness , wealth , and glory of the City of Rome . The carnall Church is led by the Vice-Christ , the earthly Prince of Pride , contending in the world for command and superiority ; and prosecuting his Cause with Strappados , fire , sword , and gunpowder , when Christ gave no Pastor a Coercive power , to touch mens bodies or estates . The true spirituall Church is Headed and commanded by Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace , and knoweth no other Universal Head , because no other hath either Capacity or Authority . It obeyeth his Laws ; and learneth of him to be charitable , patient , meek , and lowly ; and wonders not at errours and divisions on earth , nor therefore accuseth the providence of God : but knoweth by faith , that the Universal Judge of Controversies is at the door , and that it is but a very little while , and we shall see that the Church had an Universal Head , that was alone sufficient for his work ; for he that cometh will come , and will not tarry : Amen , Even so come Lord Jesus ! Sir , I desire you presently to send me word , whether you will by close Syllogisticall arguing , prove the successive visibility of your Church as Papal , or not , that I may know what to expect ? And once more I pray you take the help of the ablest of your party , both that I may not be so troubled with wrong , or impertinent allegations , and that I may be sure that your insufficient arguings are not from any imperfection of the person , but of the Cause . If you meet in these Papers with any passages which you think too confident and earnest ; I beseech you charge them not with uncharitableness or passion , for I hope it proceeded not from either ; but I confess I am inclined to speak confidently where I am certain , and to speak seriously about the things of God , which are of everlasting consequence . May 18. 1659. For Mr. William Iohnson . THE SECOND PART : Wherein the successive Visibility of the Church , of which the Protestants are chief Members , is clearly proved : And the Papists exceptions against it confuted . LONDON , Printed in the year 1660. Qu. Whether the Church , of which the Protestants are Members , have been Visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth ? Aff. THe terms explained . 1. [ The Church ] sometime signifieth a particular Congregation actually met , or associated for such personal meeting , for Communion in Gods worship . 2. Sometime it signifieth an Association of Churches , and that either of sewer , or of more , as they have opportunity of Communion or correspondency by their Pastors ; and also the Assemblies of the Pastors of the particular Churches so associated . Scripture useth it in the first sense , and Later custome ( whether Scripture also I omit ) in the later . 3. Both Scripture and Custome have used the word to signifie the Church Universal , of which all particular Churches are Members . This is [ the Church ] that we speak of in the Question . Defin. The Universal Church , of which the Protestants profess themselves Members , is , The Kingdome of Iesus Christ : or , The whole company of Believers ( or true Christians ) upon earth , subjected to Iesus Christ their Head. ] The constitutive parts , or the Relate and Correlate are , ( as in every Politick Body ) the Pars Imperans , and Pars subdita : which is Christ and Christians . The form consisteth in the mutuall Relation . The End is the common good of the Church , and the glory of the Head , and the accomplishment of the will of God. 2. [ The Protestants ] Defin. [ Protestants are Christians protesting against , or disowning Popery . ] The word [ Protestant ] expresseth not the essence of our Religion . And therefore it must not denominate the Universal Church , of which we are Members : we are not to call it [ A Protestant Universal Church . ] Nor doth it signifie an inseparable proper accident . For when the Catholick Church had no Popery , there was none to protest against , and therefore there could be no Protestants . And Ethiopia , India , and other Nations that never had Popery , or those Nations that never heard of it , have no occasion to protest against it . Nor doth it signifie any Positive part ( directly ) of our Religion : but only the Negation , or Rejection of Popery : Even as when a man is called [ Homo purgatus , sanatus , liberatus , à leprâ , peste , tabe , &c. ] a man purged , healed , freed from the leprosie , plague , consumption , &c. it is no positive part , nor inseparable proper accident , much less any essential part of the man , that is signified by the word [ Healed , Purged , &c. ] Nor is it necessary in order to the proving him [ a man ] or [ a healthfull man , ] to prove that he was ever [ a purged , or healed man. ] We undertake not therefore to prove that there have been alwayes Protestants , that is , men Protesting against Popery : Nor have we any need , in order to the proof of our Thesis , to prove that the Catholick Church hath all been free from Popery in all ages , or in any age since the Apostles , no more then that it hath been free from Pride , Ambition , or Contention . ( But yet we shall do it ex abundanti . ) The Religion then of a Protestant is Christianity , and he knoweth and owneth no other . Which is called [ the Protestant Religion ] as cleansed from Popery . [ Members ] that is , true integral parts . [ Of which — are — ] By Profession . We profess our selves to be of no other Church . And before men , a man is to be taken to be of that Religion and Church of which he professeth himself to be , till he be proved false in that Profession . If a Papist affirm himself a member of the Roman Church , in disputing with him we will take it for granted that he is so ; every man being best acquainted with his own mind , and fittest to describe the Religion which he owns . So that two things I here include . 1. It is only such a Catholick Church that hath been still visible , [ that Protestants own . ] 2. And only such that really they are of , their Profession being valid . Note also , that it is not directly the inexistency by internal invisible faith , that is in question among us , or that I mean : but the inexistency by external Visible Profession . Bellarmine thinks the bare Professors that are wicked , are best termed [ Dead members ] and [ the true Professors , [ Living members ] we will not stick needlesly on words : We take the Living members only to be in strict propriety members ; but Sincerity and Hypocrisie being known only to God and the possessors , we speak of Professors as Professors abstractively from their Sincerity or Hypocrisie . [ Hath been Visible . ] 1. Not visible to man in its Internal faith ; but in its external Profession . 2. Not Visible at once to any one man : for no man can see all the Christian world at once : But Visible in its parts , both in Congregations and individual persons . 3. Not Visible in the soundness of its professed faith unto Infidels and Hereticks : For they cannot see that faith to be sound , which they take to be fabulous and false : But Visible in the soundness of its professed faith to themselves , that know the soundness of faith . 4. Not Visible in the excellent degree of soundness in the better parts , unto the corrupter or infirmer parts : For though de facto they may know what Doctrine the better part do hold ( as Infidels know what Doctrine the Church holdeth ) yet they know it not to be true and sound in the points wherein they differ . And note again , that it is not the [ Visibility ] of every accident of the Church , nor of every Truth or duty that is but of the Integrity of Religion , and necessary only ad melius esse Ecclesiae , to the Better being of the Church , but it is the [ Visibility ] of the Church that we speak of . Lastly , it is the Body and not the Head , whose Visibility is in Question by us . Though the Head also is truly Visible in Heaven ; and Visus , or seen to the most excellent Triumphant part of his Body , who are fittest to be his Courtiers , and in his presence : ( and as much seen on earth , as the Pope is to most of the Church , which is not at all . ) [ Ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . ] 1. But not still in one and the same place on earth . It might be in one age much of it in Iudea , at Ephesus , Sardis , Laodicaea , Colosse , Philippi , and other parts of Asia ; and in other ages removed thence , either wholly or for the most part : It might be in one age in Tendu● , N●bia , and other great Kingdoms , where it shall af●er cease to be : But in some part or other of the earth it hath been still . 2. Not equally visible in all Times and Places of the earth . In some Times ( as in the Arrians prevalency ) it was so oppressed and obscured , that the world groaned to find it self turn'd Arrian , and the Arrians in General Councils and number of Bishops ( to whom the true Christians were very few ) did seem to carry away the Name and glory of the Catholick Church ; so that in their eyes , and in the eyes of slanders by that were of neither party , the most Visible Catholick Church was theirs : who yet had no part in it , because they were not Christians ( as denying that which is essentiall to Christ , the object of the Christian faith ) and therefore none of the Church , and therefore though most visible and numerous , yet not the visible Church : And the Church , which to others was as wheat hidden in this chaffe , or rather a few ears among so many rares , was yet Visible to it self in its Truth of faith , and visible to its Enemies in its Profession and assemblies , though in number far below them . So also in some places it may be Latent through persecution & the paucity of believers , when in other places it is more Patent . And its Degrees of soundness being various , are accordingly variously visible . One part may be really and visibly more strong , and another more weak in the faith : One part much more corrupt then others , and other parts retain their purity : And the same Countries increase or decrease in that purity , as is apparent in the case of the Churches of Galatia , Corinth , the seven Asian Churches , Rev. 2. and 3. &c. Lastly note , that it is only that part of the Church which is on earth whose visibility we assert ; though that in Heaven be also a true part of the Body of Christ. Nor is it in the same Individuals that the Church continueth Visible , but in successive Matter . So much for explication of the terms . Thes. The Church of which the Protestants are Members , hath been Visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . Arg. 1. The Body of Christians on earth subjected to Christ their Head , hath been ( in its parts ) Visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . But the Body of Christians on earth subjected to Christ their Head , is the Church of which the Protestants are Members : Therefore the Church of which the Protestants are Members , hath been visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . I have not sagacity enough to conjecture what any Papist can say against the Major proposition . The Minor is proved by our own Professions : As the profession of Popery , proveth a man a Papist , so the profession of Christianity as much proveth us to be Christians . [ α ] Those that profess the true Christian Religion in all its essentials , are Members of that Church which is the Body of Christians on earth subjected to Christ the Head. But the Protestants profess the true Christian Religion in all its essentialls : therefore the Protestants are Members of that Church which is the Body of Christians on earth subjected to Christ the Head. The Major is undeniable . The Minor is thus proved . 1. Those that profess so much as God hath promised salvation upon in the Covenant of Grace , do profess the Christian Religion in all its Essentials . ( For God promiseth salvation in that Covenant to none but Christians . ) But the Protestants profess so much as God hath promised salvation upon , in the Covenant of Grace : Therefore the Protestants do profess the Christian Religion in all its essentials . The Minor is thus proved . All that profess faith in God the Father , Son , and holy Ghost , our Creator , Redeemer and Sanctifier , and love to him , and absolute obedience to all his Laws of Nature and holy Scripture , with willingness and diligence to know the true meaning of all these Laws as far as they are able , and with Repentance for all known sin , do profess so much as God hath promised salvation upon , Ioh. 3.16 , 17. Mark 16.16 . Heb. 5.9 Rom. 8.28 . 1. Act 26.18 . But so do the Protestants : Therefore the Protestants profess so much as God hath promised salvation on . 2. Those that profess as much and much more of the Christian faith and Religion , as the Catechumens were ordinarily taught in the ancient Churches , and the Competentes at Baptism did profess , do profess the true Christian Religion in all its essentials . But so do the Protestants : Therefore , &c. 3. Those that explicitely profess the Belief of all that was contained in the Churches Symbols , or Creeds , for six hundred years after Christ ( and much more holy truth ) and implicitly to believe all that is contained in the holy Scriptures , and to be willing and diligent for the explicite knowledge of all the rest , with a Resolution to obey all the will of God which they know , do profess the true Christian Religion in all its Essentials . But so do the Protestants . Therefore , &c. Ad hominem , I confirm the Major ( and most that went before ) from the Testimonies of some most eminent Papists . Bellarmine saith , de Verbo Dei , lib. 4. c. 11. In the Christian doctrine both of faith and manners , some things are simply necessary to salvation to all ; as the knowledge of the Articles of the Apostles Creed , of the ten Commandments , and of some Sacraments : The rest are not so necessary that a man cannot be saved without the explicite knowledge , belief , and profession of them — These things that are simply necessary , and are profitable to all , the Apostles preached to all — All things are written by the Apostles which are Necessary to all , and which they openly preacht to all — Costerus Enchirid. c. 1. p. 49. [ We deny not , that those chief heads of Belief , which are necessary to all Christians to be known to salvation , are perspicuously enough comprehended in the writings of the Apostles . ] But all this the Protestants profess to believe . [ ● ] If sincere Protestants are Members of the true Church , as intrinsecally informed ( or as Bellarmine speaks , Living Members ) then professed Protestants are Members of the true Church as extrinsecally denominated ( or as it is Visible , consisting of Professors . ) But the Antecedent is true : Therefore so is the Consequent . The Reason of the Consequence is , because it is the same thing that is professed by all Professors , and existent in all true Believers : and that as to Profession is necessary to Visibility of Membership ; and as to sincere inexistence , is necessary to salvation . The Antecedent or Minor I thus prove . All that by saith in Christ are brought to the unfeigned Love of God above all , and speciall Love to his servants , and unfeigned willingness to obey him , are Members of the true Church as intrinsecally informed . But such are all sincere Protestants : Therefore all sincere Protestants are Members of the true Church as intrinsecally informed . The Major is granted by the Papists , who affirm charity to be the form of Grace , and all that have it to be justified . And the promises of Scripture prove it to our Comfort . The Minor 1. Is proved to others by our Professions : If this be in our Profession , then the sincere are such indeed . But this is in our Profession : Therefore , &c. 2. It s certainly known to our selves by the inward knowledge and sense of our souls . I know that I Love God and his servants , and am willing to obey him ; Therefore all the Papists Sophisms shall never make me not know what I do know , and not feel what I do feel . They reason in vain with me , when they reason against the knowledge and experience of my soul. Your scope is to prove me in a state of damnation . You confess that if I have charity I am in a state of salvation . I know and feel that I have charity : Therefore I know that your Reasonings are deceit . Arg. 2. The Church whose faith is contained in the holy Scriptures as its Rule in all points necessary to salvation , hath been Visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . But the Church whose faith is contained in the holy Scriptures as its Rule in all points necessary to salvation , is it of which the Protestants are Members . Therefore the Church of which the Protestants are Members , hath been visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . That the Catholick Church which hath been Visible till now , hath received the Holy Scriptures which we receive , is confessed by all Papists that ever I heard or read making mention of it . And no wonder , for it cannot be denied . That this Church hath taken these Scriptures for the Rule of faith in all points necessary to salvation ( allowing Church-Governours to make Canons about the circumstantials of Government and worship , which in the Universal Law are not determined , but left to humane prudence to determine . ) 1. I have proved in my third Dispute of the safe Religion already . 2. It is confessed by the Papists : the forecited passages of Bellarmine and Costerus are sufficient . But in the great Council at Basil , Orat. Ragus . Bin. p. 299. it is most plainly and with fuller authority asserted . [ The holy Scripture in the Literal sense , soundly and well understood , is the infallible and Most sufficient Rule of faith . ] See my vindication of this Testimony in my Catholick Key : and the like from Card. Richlieu . Gerson saith , de exam . doctr . p. 2. cont . 1. Nihil audendum dicere de divinis , nisi quae nobis à sacra Scriptura tradita sunt . Durandus in his Preface is wholly for the excellency and sufficiency of the Scriptures . Three wayes , he saith , God revealeth himself and other things to man : The lowest way is by the book of the creatures ( so heathens may know him . ) The highest is by manifest Vision ( as in heaven ) : and the middle way is in the Book of holy Scripture , without which there is no coming to the highest way . ] And going on to extoll the Scripture , he citeth Ieromes words ad Paulinum , [ Let us learn on earth the knowledge of those things which will abide with us in heaven : ] But this is only ( saith he ) in the holy Scripture . ] And after ex Hierom . ad Marcell . [ If Reason be brought against the authority of the Scriptures , how acute soever it is , it cannot be true : ] And after [ We must speak of the mysterie of Christ , and universally of those things that meerly concern faith , conformably to what the holy Scripture delivereth : So Christ , Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures , It is they that testifie of me . If any observe not this , he speaks not of the mysterie of Christ , and of other things directly touching faith as he ought , but falls into that of the Apostle , 1 Cor. 8. If any man think he knoweth any thing , he yet knoweth nothing as he ought to know . For the measure is not to exceed the measure of faith : of which the Apostle bids us , Rom. 12. Not to be wiser then we ought to be , but to be wise to sobriety , and as God hath divided to every man the measure of faith . Which Measure consisteth in two things ; to wit , that we subtract not from faith that which is of faith , nor ( N.B. ) attribute that to faith which is not of faith : For by either of these wayes , the measure of faith is exceeded , and men deviate from the continence of the sacred Scripture , which expresseth the measure of faith . ] ( That is , from the full sufficiency of the Scripture measure : ) [ And this measure , by Gods assistance , we will hold , that we may write or teach nothing dissonant to the holy Scripture . But if by ignorance or inadvertency , we should write any thing dissonant , let it be taken ipso facto as not written . ] This is a confession of the Religion of the Protestants . And though he adjoyn a submission to the Roman Church , because he was bred in it , it is only as to an interpreter of doubtfull Texts of Scripture : So that the sufficiency of our Rule and measure of faith is granted by him , and zealously asserted ; and that without Bellarmine and Costerus limitation , to points necessary to the salvation of all ; he extendeth it to all the faith . Aquin. 22. q. 1. a. 10. ad 1. saith , [ That in the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles , the truth of the faith is sufficiently explicated : ] even when he is pleading for the Popes power to make new Creeds to obviate errours . And in his sum . de Verit. disp . de fide q. 10. ad 11. he saith , [ That all the means by which the faith cometh to us are free from suspicion . The Prophets and Apostles we believe , for this reason , because God bore them witness by working Miracles : as Mar. 16. confirming their speech with following signs : But their successors we believe not , but so far as they declare to us those things which they have left us in the Scripture . ] This is the Religion of the Protestants . Scotus in Prolog . in sent . 1. makes it his second Question , Whether supernaturall knowledge necessary to us in the Way , be sufficiently delivered in the holy Sc●ipture , which he proveth ( having first given ten arguments to prove the Truth of Scripture . ) And first he shews it containeth the Doctrine of the End , and 2. of the things necessary to that end , and the sufficiency of them ; summarily in the Decalogue , explained in the other Scriptures , as to matter of faith , hope , and practice ; and so concludes , that the holy Scripture sufficiently containeth the doctrine necessary viatori , to us in the way : And he answereth the objection , of Difficulties in it , ( without flying to the Church ) that [ no science explaineth all things to be known , but those things from which the rest may conveniently be gathered : and so many needfull truths are not expressed in Scripture ; though they are virtually there contained , as conclusions in the Principles , about the investigation whereof the labour of Expositors and Doctors hath been profitable . ] This is his doctrine out of Origen . Gregor . Ariminensis in Prol. q. 1. act . 2. Resp. ad act . fol. 3. & 4. saith [ A discourse properly Theologicall , is that which consisteth of words or propositions contained in the holy Scripture ; or of those that are deduced from them ; or at least from one of these : This is proved 1. by the forealledged authority of Dionys. For he will have it , that there can be no leading of that man to Theologicall science , that assenteth not to the sayings of the holy Scripture . — It follows therefore that no discourse that proceedeth not from the words of holy Scripture , or of that which is deduced from them , is Theologicall . ] — [ 2. The same is proved from the common conception of all men : For all men judge that then only is any thing proved Theologically , when they prove it from the words of the holy Scripture . ] This is more then the former say : For to extend the sufficiency and necessity of Scripture to all that 's Theologicall , is more then to extend it to matter of faith . No Protestant goeth higher then this that I know of . And note , that he makes this the very common conception and judgement of all men . See then where our Religion and Church was before Luther ! even among all Christians . Yet more fully he proceeds ( ibid. ) [ Hence it further appeareth , that Principles of Theology thus taken , that is , which is acquired by Theologicall discourse , are the very Truths themselves of the holy Canon , because the ultimate Resolution of all Theologicall discourse doth stand ( or belong ) to them ; and all Theologicall conclusions are deduced first from them . But distinguishing the Conclusions Theologicall from the Principles , I say that all truths are not in themselves formally contained in the holy Scripture : but of necessity following from those that are contained in them : and this whether they are Articles of faith , or not ( N B ) ; and whether they are knowable or known by another science , or not : and whether they are determined by the Church or not . But of other Truths , to wit , not following from the words of the holy Scripture , I say there is no Theologicall conclusion : This is proved , &c. — ] When I read over the Schoolmen and Divines of all sorts , that wrote before the Reformers fell so closely upon the Pope , and [ find how generally even the Papists themselves maintained the sufficiency of the holy Scripture , just as the Protestants now do , I am convinced 1. of the succession of the Protestants Religion in the Universal Visible Church ; and 2. that it was the Reformers Arguments from Scripture , that forced the Papists to oppose this holy Rule , as to its sufficiency ; and to invent the new doctrine of supplementall Tradition ; ( for conservative , Ministeriall Tradition of the holy Scriptures we are for as much , at least , as they . ) The words of Guil. Parisie●sis , too large to be recited , in extolling the fulness and perfection of the Scripture , even for all sorts of men , you may read , de Legibus , cap. 16. pag. 46. Bellarmine de Verbo Dei. lib. 3. cap. 10. ad Arg. 15. saith [ We must know that a Proposition of faith is concluded in such a syllogism : Whatsoever God hath revealed in Scripture is true : But this God hath revealed in Scripture : Therefore it is true . ] ( Though he require another word of God by the Pope , or Council , to prove that this is revealed in Scripture . ) But if so , then Scripture containeth all that 's true in points of faith . 2. And that all things that are revealed , and which we ought to believe , are not Essentiall to the Christian faith , and therefore that all are of the Church that hold these Essentialls , and that such a distinction must be maintained , the Papists have still confessed , till lately , that disputing hath encreased their novelties and errours . Bellarmines and Costerus confession , I recited even now . Guliel . Parisiensis in Operum pag. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. de fide , industriously proveth the necessity of distinguishing the fundamentalls or essentialls , from the rest of the points of faith : and it is they that constitute the Catholick faith , which he saith is therefore called Catholick or Universal , because it is the common faith , or the common foundation of Religion : And he proves that hence it is that the Catholick faith is but One , and found in all Catholicks , these fundamentalls being found in all . ] By many arguments he proveth this . And that there are some points , even these common Articles necessary to be known of all , necessitati medii , the Schoolmen commonly grant : as Aquin. 22. q. 2. a. 5. c. Bannes in 22. q. 2. a. 8. &c. Of these saith Espencaeus ( in 2. Ti. c. 3. dig . 17. ) which are the objects of faith per se , and not the secondary objects , the adult must have an explicite faith , and the Colliers faith at this time decantate by the Catholicks , will not serve the turn . ] And we have both the Scripture sufficiency to all points of faith , even the lowest , and also the foresaid distinction given us together , by Tho. Aquinas 22. q. art . 5. c. [ We must say , that the object of faith per se , is that by which man is made blessed : But by accident and secondarily , all things are the object of faith which are contained in the holy Scripture . ] See the judgement of Occham , Canus , Tolet , and many more cited by Dr. Potter ; and yet more for the sufficiency of the Symbole or Creed , as the test of Christianity , pag. 89 , 90 , 91 , 92 , 93. Where you have the sense of the Ancients upon the point , and p. 102 , 103. I conclude therefore with the Jesuite Azorius , par . 1. lib. 8. c. 6. [ The substance of the Article in which we believe One , holy , Catholick Church , is , that no man can be saved out of the Congregation of men professing the reception of the faith and Religion of Christ , and that salvation may be obtained within this same Congregation of godly and faithfull men . And as to the Essence of the Christian faith and Church , we say with Tertullian of the Symbole [ Fides in Regula posita est : habes legem , & salutem ex observatione legis : exercitatio autem in curiositate consistit , habens gloriam solam ex peritiae studio : Cedat curiositas fidei : Cedat gloria saluti . Corte aut non obstrepant , aut quiescant adversus regulam : Nihil ultra scire , est omnia scire . ] That is , [ Faith lieth in the Rule : Here you have the Law , and salvation in the observation of that Law ; but it is exercise that consisteth in curiosity , having only ( a name or ) glory by the study of skill ; Let curiosity give place to faith : Let glory give place to salvation . Let them not prate , or let them be quiet , against the Rule . To know nothing further , is to know all things . ] De Praescript . cap. 13 , 14. So cap. 8. Nobis curiositate opus non est post Christum Iesum , nec inquisitione post Evangelium . Cum credimus , nihil desideramus ultra credere ; hoc enim prius credimus , non esse quod ultra credere debeamus . ] That is , [ As for us we need not curiosity after Jesus Christ , nor inquisition after the Gospel : When we believe , we need to believe no further : For we first believe this , that there is nothing further that we ought to believe . ] And here ( on the by ) for the right understanding of Tertullians Book de Praescript . note , 1. That the Rule of Essentialls extracted from the whole Scripture , is the Churches ancient Creed . 2. That the compleat Rule of all points of faith is the whole Scripture . And that Tertullian had to do with Hereticks that denied the Essentials , and desired the whole Scripture to dispute their case from both , because they had questioned or rejected much of it ; and because it was a larger field to exercise their wits in , and whence they might gather more matter of dispute to puzzle the weak : And therefore Tertullian adviseth the ordinary Christians of his time , instead of long puzzling disputes with them out of Scripture , to hold them to the Churches prescription , of the simple doctrine of the Creed . But now come in the Papists ; and 3. will neither be content with Creed nor Scripture , but must have a Church or faith partly made up of supplemental Traditions , of more then is in all the Scripture , and so run further from Tertullian and the ancient simplicity , then these Hereticks , and yet are not ashamed to glory in this Book of Tertullian as for them . Of the Fathers judgement of the Scripture sufficiency , see the third part of my [ safe Religion ] where I have produced Testimonies enough to prove the Antiquity of the Protestants Religion , and the Novelty of Popery . But nothing can be so plain and full , which pre-engaged men dare not deny . Let me instance but in one or two passages of Augustine , so plain as might put an end to the whole Controversie . Aug. de Doctr. Christian. lib. 2. c. 9. [ In his omnibus libris timentes Deum & pietate mansueti , quaerunt voluntatem Dei. Cujus operis & laboris prima observatio est , ut diximus , nosse istos libros , & si nondum ad intellectum legendo tamen vel mandare memoriae , ( He was not against the Vulgars reading Scripture ) vel omnino incognitos non habere . Deinde illa quae in eis aperte pofita sunt , vel praecepta vivendi vel regulae credendi , solertiùs diligentiúsque investiganda sunt : Quae tanto quisque plura invenit , quanto est intelligentia capacior : In iis enim quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt , inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque vivendi , ( N. B. ) spem scilicet atque charitatem , de quibus libro superiore tractavimus . Tum vero facta quadam familiaritate cum ipsa lingua divinarum scripturarum , in ea quae obscura sunt aperienda , & discutienda pergendum est , ut ad obscuriores locutiones illustrandas de manifestationibus sumantur exempla , & quaedam certarum sententiarum testimonia , dubitationem de incertis auferant . ] You see here that the Scripture , as sufficient to faith and manners , to be read by all that fear God , and can read ; and the harder places to be expounded by the plainer , was the ancient Rule of faith and Religion : And this is the Religion of Protestants . Aug. lib. 3. c. 6. contra lit . Petiliani , pag. 127. [ Proinde , sive de Christo sive de ejus Ecclesia , sive de quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram , non dicam Nos , nequaquam comparandi ●i qui dixit [ Licet si nos ] sed omnino quod secutus adjecit , si Angelus de coelo vobis annunciaverit praeterquam quod in Scripturis & Evangelicis accepistis , Anathema sit . ] I must needs English this short passage , to the utter confusion of Popery . [ And therefore whether it be of Christ , or whether it be of the Church , or whether it be of any other matter that pertaineth to our Faith or Life , I will not say [ if we ] as being not worthy to be compared with him that said [ Though we ] but ( I will say ) plainly what he added following : [ If an Angel from heaven shall declare to you any thing besides that which you have received in the Legall and Evangelicall Scriptures , let him be Anathema , or accursed . ] Was not the Church then purely Protestant in their Religion ? The Minor needs no proof but our own Profession . My profession is the best evidence of my own Religion to another : And I profess this to be my Religion ; which is contained in the holy Scripture , as the Test , or Law , or Rule . And let no man contradict me , that knoweth not my Religion better then I do : The Articles of the Church of England profess this also to be the Religion of the Composers . And the Protestants commonly uno ore do profess it . It is the great difference between us and the Papists . The whole Universal Law of God that we know of , and own , is contained in Nature and Scripture conjunct . But the Papists take somewhat else to be another part . We allow by-Laws about mutable undetermined things ( as aforesaid ) to Governours : But we know no Universal Law of faith and holiness , but Nature and Scripture : This is our Religion : And this Religion contained in Nature and Scriptures hath been still received . Obj. We confess Scripture is sufficient to them that have no further light : All that is necessary to the salvation of all , is in that perspicuously , as Costerus , Bellarmine , and others say : but more is necessary to salvation to some . Ans. 1. Then at least it containeth all the Essentialls of Christianity , which sufficeth to our present end . 2. And what maketh more Necessary to me , or others here in England , if it be not necessary to all ? Is it because that more is Revealed to us ? But how and by whom ; and with what Evidence ? We are willing to see it , and can see no such thing : But if this be it , ( if I may speak so plainly without offence ) it seems it concerneth us to keep out Friars and Jesuites from the Land , as much ( if we knew how ) as to keep out the Devil . For they tell us , 1. That we must believe the Popes Soveraignty , against the Tradition and judgement of most of the Catholick Church . 2. And we must believe our selves to be void of Charity ( because no Papists ) contrary to our internall sense and knowledge . 3. And we must believe that bread is not bread , and wine is not wine , contrary to the common senses of all sound men : and if we will not thus renounce the Churches Vote , Tradition , our Certain knowledge , Reason , and all our Senses , we must be damned : where as before this doctrine was brought us , we might have been saved , as having in the Scriptures all things necessary to the salvation of all . But the Papists must needs have us shew them where our Church was , and name the persons . Answ. 1. It were not the Catholike Church , if it were confined to any place that is but a part of the Christian territories . 2. Nor were it the Catholike Church if we could name half or a considerable part of the members : As Augustin oft tells the Donatists , it is the Church which begun at Ierusalem , and thence is spread throughout the world . Part of it may be in one Nation one year , which may forfeit and lose it before the next . God hath not tyed it to any place . 3. To tell you where the Catholike Church hath been in every age , and who were the Members or the Leaders , requireth much knowledge in History and Cosmography , which God hath not made necessary to salvation . 4. There are no known Histories that deliver us the Catalogues of the Christians in every age of the world . Had any been so foolish as to write them , they would have been too chargeable to keep , and too long to read : yea were it but of the Pastors . 5. God hath nowhere commanded the Church to keep such Catalogues or Histories , nor promised when they are written , that Papists shall not purposely corrupt and destroy them , not Turks ( as at Buda ) take the Christian Libraries , and burn them . 6. Papists cannot prove the successive extent and habitations of the Catholike Church any more then we ; and we can do it as well as they : for we have the same means . If they can tell us where it hath been in every age , they need not ask us : If they cannot , they have as much need to learn as we , and much more . They think it not necessary to their Laity , to the proving of their faith , to be able to prove the habitations or names of the Members of the Catholike Church in all ages : and why is it more necessary to us then them ? 7. But yet , to men acquainted with history , what can be more easie , then to tell you where great multitudes of Christians in all ages have inhabited , and where many parts of the Church have been , though no man can give you a Catalogue of the Church , any more then of the world ? Would you know then where our Church , that is , the Catholike Church hath been , in all ages ? why it hath been in Asia , Africa and Europe . Is that too general ? It hath been in Syria , in Mesopotamia , Parthia , Media , Armenia , India , Persia , in Egypt , Habassia , Georgia , Cilicia , Circassia , Mengrelia , Natolia , Isauria , Thrace , and more other Countries , then I have any need to name to you , ( to say nothing of Europe , and Brittain by name , as a thing most known ) . But no man well in his wits will deny a succession of the Christian Church which I have defined , from the first plantation of it until now . If Christianity had ever ceased in the world , how came it to be new planted , and revived ? That this before described is the only Catholike Church that hath been owned by the ancient Doctors , appeareth by their constant witnesses . To cite a few , and yet enough . August . in Psal. 21. Vbicunque timetur Deus & laudatur , ibi est Ecclesia . Id. Epist. 50. In Sanctis Libris ubi manifestatur Dominus Christus , ibi & ejus Ecclesia declaratur ( and therefore there it must be sought ) Isti autem mirabili caecitate , cum ipsum Christum praeter Scripturas nesciant , ejus tamen ▪ Ecclesiam non divinarum authoritate cognoscunt , sed humanarum calumniarum vanitate confingunt . Christ is to be known in the Scripture , and therefore so is the Church . Ibid. In causa Caeciliani — se ab Ecclesia Catholica , hoc est , ab unitate omnium gentium diviserunt . It s not the Catholick Church because Roman , but because extended to all Nations . Sed tamen Ecclesiam , quae non litigiosis opinionibus fingitur , sed Divinis attestationibus comprobatur , propter quemlibet hominem relinquere non debemus . Id. In Psal. 56. Corpus ejus est Ecclesia : non autem ista aut illa , sed toto Orbe diffusa : Nec ea quae nunc est in hominibus qui praesentem vitam agunt , sed ad eam pertinentibus , etiam his qui fuerunt ante nos , & his qui futuri sunt post nos , usque in finem seculi . Tota enim Ecclesia constans ex omnibus fidelibus , quia fideles omnes membra sunt Christi , habet illud Caput positum in coelestibus quod gubernat corpus suum , etsi separatum est à visione , sed annectitur charitate . ] Id. Enchirid. ad Laurent . c. 56. Ecclesia tanquam habitatori domus sua , & Deo templum suum , & conditori civitas sua : quae tota hic accipienda est , non solum ex parte quae peregrinatur in terris , à solis ortu usque ad occasum laudans nomen domini . ] Id. contr . Petilian . cap. 2. Purposely opening the true nature of the Catholick Church for the stating of the Case , saith , [ Quaestio certè inter nos versatur , ubi sit Ecclesia ? utrum apud nos , an apud illos ? Quae utique Vna est , quam majores nostri Catholicam nominarunt , ut ex ipso nomine ostenderent , quia per totum est . — Haec autem Ecclesia Corpus Christi est : sicut Apostolus dicit , [ pro corpore ejus , quae est Ecclesia . ] Vnde utique manifestum est , eum qui non est in membris Christi , Christianam salutem habere non posse . Membra vero Christi per unitatis charitatem sibi copulantur , & per eandem capiti suo adhaerent quod est Christus Iesus . — Quaestio est , ubi sit hoc corpus , i. e. ubi sit Ecclesia ? Quid ergo facturi sumus ? in Verbis nostris eam quaesituri ? an in Verbis capitis sui ? Domini nostri Iesu Christi ? Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quaerere debemus , qui verit as est , & optime novit corpus suum — After he calls the Church over and over , Vniversum Orbem Christianum — cap. 3. Quia nolo humanis documentis , sed divinis oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari . Si sanctae Scriptura in Africa solâ , &c. — Si autem Christi Ecclesia Canonicarum Scripturarum Divinis & certissimis testimoniis in omnibus gentibus designata est , quicquid attulerint ( N. B. ) & undicunque recitaverint , qui dicunt , [ Ecce hic Christus , ecce illic ] audiamus potius , si ●ves ejus sumus , vocem pastoris nostri dicentis [ Nolite credere . ] — Cap. 4. Totus Christus Caput & Corpus est : Caput unigenitus Dei filius , & Corpus ejus Ecclesia , sponsus & sponsa ; duo in carne una : Quicunque de ipso capite ab Scripturis sanctis dissentiunt , etiamsi in omnibus locis inveniantur in quibus Ecclesia designata est , non sunt in Ecclesia : & ●ursus quicunque de ipso capite Scripturis Sanctis consentiunt , & Vnitati Ecclesiae non communicant , ( or as after ) ab ejus corpore quod est Ecclesia ita dissentiunt , ut eorum communio non sit cum toto quacunque diffunditur , sed in aliqua parte separata inveniatur , manif stum est eos non esse in Catholica Ecclesia . ] ( A sad conclusion to the Papists . ) It would be tedious to recite half that Austin there hath to this purpose . Through all his exquisite disputes with the Donatists , he still describeth the Church , 1. As being the Body of Christ , its Head. 2. As dispersed through the world , and containing all the Members of Christ. 3. And that which begun at Ierusalem . 4. And is to be known by the word of God : Never mentioning the Headship of the Pope , nor the Mistris-ship of Rome : of which more anon . So Optatus lib. 2. advers . Parmen . Vbi ergo erit propriet as Catholici nominis , cum inde dicta sit Catholica , quod sit rationabilis & ubique diffusa , &c. ] And before ( p. 46. ) Ergo Ecclesia una est , cujus sanctitas de sacramentis colligitur ; non de superbia personarum ponderatur : He glorieth indeed in the chair of Peter , and the Roman Church and succession , as being on the Catholicks side ; but never maketh them an Essentiall part of the Catholick Church , nor talks of a Unity caused by subjection to them , but Charity to all : And therefore calls the Schismaticks , lib. 3. p. 72. Charitatis desertores , not subjectionis desertores : Adding , gaud●t totus Orbis de Vnitate Catholica ; but never de subjectione Romae . Yea he saith more of the seven Asian Churches , lib. 2. p 50. Extra septem Ecclesias quicquid foris est , ●lienum est . Never more ( i●●o much ) can be found to be said to Rome : and now Rome it self is extra septem Ecclesias . So he supposeth God praising the Catholick , p 77. lib. 4. Dissentio & sehisma tibi displicuit ; Concordasti cum fratre tuo , & cum una Ecclesia , quae est in toto orbe terrarum : Communicasti septem Ecclesiis & memoriis Apostolorum : amplexus es unitatem . So lib. 6. p. 95. he thus describeth the Catholick Communion . [ An quia voluntatem & jussionem Dei secuti sumus amando pacem , communicando toti orbi terrarum ; societati Orientalibus , ubi secundum hominem suum natus est Christus ; ubi ejus sancta sunt in pressa vestigia ; ubi ambu●averunt adorandi pedes ; ubi ab ipso factae sunt tot & tantae virtutes ; ubi eum sunt tot Apostoli comitati ; ubi est septiformis Ecclesia ; à qua vos concisos esse , &c. ] Tertullian dealing with Hereticks indeed , that denyed the Fundamentals , thought it but a tiresome way to dispute with them out of Scripture , who wrested so many things in it to their destruction , but would have them convinced by Prescription : because they lived near the Churches that were planted by the Apostles , and near their daies : And what doth he ? appeal to Rome , as the Judge , or Church that the rest are subjected to ? No : but 1. It is the common Creed or Symbole of the Church , that he would have made use of in stead of long disputes ( and not any other doctrine . ) 2. And it is all the Churches planted by the Apostles , that he will have to be the first witnesses . 3. And the present Churches , the immediate witnesses that they received this Creed ( not any supernumeraries ) from them , as the Apostles doctrine . So de praescript . c. 13. he reciteth the Symbole it self , and so cap. 20. he mentioneth the sending of the twelve to teach this faith , and plant Churches , which he describeth thus [ Statim igitur Apostoli — primo per Iudaeam contestata fide in Iesum Christum , & Ecclesiis institutis , dehinc in orbem profecti , eandem doctrinam ejusdem fidei nationibus promulgaverunt , & proinde Ecclesias apud unamquamque civitatem condiderunt , à quibus traducem fidei & semina doctrinae caeterae exinde Ecclesiae mutuatae sunt , & quotidie mutuantur ut Ecclesiae fiant . Ac per hoc & ipsea Apostolicae deputantur ut soboles Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum . Omne genus ad Originem suam censeatur , necesse est . Itaque tot ac tantae Ecclesiae una est illa ab Apostolis prima , ex qua omnes . ( Are not those too gross deceivers that would perswade us that he here meaneth the Church of Rome by the [ una illa ] , when he plainly speaks of the Catholick Church of the Apostolick age from which all the rest did spring ? If of a particular Church , it must be that of Ierusalem . Did all the rest arise from Rome ? Can they say [ ex hac omnes ? ] Sic omnes primae , & omnes Apostolicae , dum unam omnes probant unitatem . Communicatio pacis , & appellatio fraternitatis , & contesseratio hospitalitatis , quae jura non alia ratio regit , quam ejusdem sacramenti una traditio . ] Note here 1. That no Original Church is mentioned but those of Iudaea , with the rest of the Apostles planting . And 2. That the Churches planted by the Apostles themselv●s , ( without any mentioned difference of superiority ) are that one Church which all the rest must try their faith by , as the witnesses 3. That they are equally made traduces fidei , and mother Churches to others propagated by them . 4. That per hoc , by this propagation ( without subjection to the Church or Pope of Rome ) all the rest are Apostolicall . 5. And the sufficient proof to any Church then that it was prima & Apostolica , was ( not subjection to Rome but ) that nuam omnes probant unitatem . That is , of the Apostolick faith , received from that one Apostolick Church . 6. Yea when he reciteth the external Characters of the Church , it is not subjection to Rome , that is any one of them , but , Communicatio pacis , appellatio fraternitatis , contesseratio hospitalitatis . ] 7. Yea utterly to exclude the Roman subjection , he adds [ quae jura non alia ratio regit , quam ejusdem sacramenti una traditio . ] So he proceeds Si haec ita sunt , constat proinde omnem doctrinam , quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis matricibus & originalibus fidei conspiret , veritati deputandum id sine dubio tenentem , quod Ecclesiae ab Apostolis , Apostoli à Christo , Christus a Deo suscepit ; reliquam verò omnem doctrinam de mendacio praejudicandam , quae sapiat contra veritatem Ecclesi●rum , & Apostolorum , & Christi , & Dei. Superest ergo ut demonstremus , an haec nostra doctrina ( the Creed ; not the Popes additions ) cujus regulam supra edidimus , de Apostolorum traditione censeatur , & ex hoc ipso , an caeterae ( that contradict the Creed ) de mendacio veniant . Communicamus cum Ecclesiis Apostolicis ( Rome is not made the standard ) quod nulla doctrina diversa , hoc est testimonium veritatis . And cap. 28. he doth not send us to the Roman Church as Head or Judge , but calling the Holy Ghost only , Vicarius Christi , Christs Vicar , makes it incredible that he should so far neglect his office , as to let ( not Rome , but ) all the Churches to lose the Apostles doctrine ; proving the certain succession of it , by the Unity , and not by Romes authority [ Ecquid verisimile est , ut tot ac tantae in unam fidem irraverint ? Nullus inter multo seventus est unus exitus : Variasse debuerat error doctrinae Ecclesiarum . Caeterum quod apud multos unum invenitur , non est erratum , sed traditum . Audeat ergo aliquis dicere , illos errasse qui tradiderunt ? So c. 32. when he calls them to the Apostolical Church , it is no more to Rome , then another . Aedant ergo origines Ecclesiarum suaerum — ut primus ille Episcopus aliquis ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris , qui tamen cum Apost lis perseveraverint , habuerit auctorem , & antecessorem . Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt : sicut Smyrneorum Ecclesia habens Polycarpum ab Iohanne Collocatum refert ; sicut Romanorum Clementem a Petro ordinatum edit : proinde utique & caeterae exhibent ] Here you see he puts Smyrna before Rome , and Iohn before Peter , and refers them to Rome , but only as one of the Churches planted by the Apostles ; and this is but to know their doctrine , delivered in that first age , which we appeal to . And after he expresly saith [ Ad hanc it aque formam , provocabantur ab illis Ecclesiis , quae licet nullum ex Apostolis , vel Apost●licus auctorem suum proferant , ut multo posteriores , quae denique quotidie institutum ; tamen in eadem fidem conspirantes , non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae : ] The Apostles doctrine will prove an Apostolical Church , when ever planted . And c. 38. he draws them from disputing from the Scripture , because they owned not the true Scripture , but corrupted it , and charged the Catholikes with corruption [ Sicut illis non potuit succedere corruptela doctrinae sine corruptela instrumentorum ejus : Ita & nobis integritaes doctrina non competisset , sine integritate eorum ( not by real tradition alone ) per quae doctrina tractatur : Etenim quid contrarium nobis in nostris ? quid de proprio intulimus , ut aliquid contrarium ei & in Scripturis deprehensum , detractione vel adjectione vel transumtatione remediaremus ? Quod sumus , hoc sunt . Ab initio suo ex illis sumus ; antequam nihil aliter fuit , quam sumus . ] And cap. 36. He sends them by name to the particular Apostolical Churches , and begins with Corinth ; then to Philippi , Thessalonica , Ephesus , and then to Rome , of whose Soveraignty he never speaks a syllable . So more plainly l. 4. contr . Marcion . c. 5. because Marcion denied the true Scriptures , he sends them to the Apostolike Churches for the true Scriptures , first to the Corinthians , then to the Galatians , then to the Philippians , Thessalonians , Ephesians , and last of all to Rome . But it would be tedious to cite the rest of the Ancients , that commonly describe the Church as we ; and such as we all own as members of it . Arg. 3. If the Roman Church ( as Christian , though not as Papal ) hath been visible ever since the daies of the Apostles , then the Church of which the Protestants are members , hath been visible ever since the daies of the Apostles : But the Antecedent is their own ; therefore they may not deny the consequent . The consequence also is past denyal . 1. Because the Roman as Christian , is part of the universal Christian Church . 2. Because they profess to believe the same holy Scriptures and Creed as we do . So that though they add more , and so make a new form to their Church , yet do they not deny our Church , which is the Christian Church as such , nor our Test and Rule of faith , nor any Article that we account Essential to our Religion . So that themselves are our sufficient witnesses . Well! but this will not satisfie the Papists , unless we shew a succession of our Church as Protestant . 1. This we need not , any more then a sound man lately cured of the Plague , doth need to prove , that he hath ever been , not only sanus but sanatus , a cured man ( before he was sick . ) How could there be a Church protesting against an universal Vicar of Christ , before any claimed that Vicarship ? 2. And when the Vicarship was usurped , those millions , abroad , and even within the Roman territories , that let the pretended Vicar talk , and followed their own business , and never consented to his usurpation , were of the very same Religion with those that openly protested against him : And so were those that never heard of his usurpation . Object . But at least , ( say they ) you must prove a Church that hath been without the universal Vicar negatively , though not against him positively . Answ. 1. In all reason , he that affirmeth must prove : It is not incumbent on us to prove the negative , that the Church had not such a Roman head ; but they must prove that it had . Object . But they have possession , and therefore you that would dispossess them , must disprove their title . Ans. 1. This is nothing to most of the Catholike Church where they have no possession : therefore with them they confess themselves obliged to the proof . 2. This is a meer fallacious diversion : for we are not now upon the question of their Title , but the matter of fact and history : we make good the negative , that they have no Title from the Laws of Christ himself : and so will not dispossess them without disproving their pretended Title . But when the question is de facto , whether they have ever had that possession from the Apostles daies , they that affirm must prove , when we have disabled their title from the Law. 2. But what must we prove ? that all the Church hath been guiltless of the Papal usurpation , or only some in every age ? of all its no more necessary to us , then to prove that there have been no Heresies since the Apostles . If a piece of the Church may turn Hereticks , or but Schismaticks , as the Novatians , and African Donatists , why may not another piece turn Papists ? 3. What will you say to a man that knoweth not a Protestant , nor a Papist , or believeth only Christianity it self , and meddleth not with the Pope , any further then to say , [ I believe not in him , Jesus I know : and the Apostles , and Scripture , and Christianity I know , but the Pope I know not : ] and suppose he never subscribed to the Augustane , English , or any such confession , but only to the Scripture , and the Apostles , and Nicene , and other ancient Creeds ; By what shew of Justice can you require this man to prove that there hath been no Pope in every age ? 4. The foundation of all our controversie is doctrinal , whether the Papal Soveraignty be Essential to the Church ? or necessary to our membership ? we deny it ; you affirm it . If it be not Essential , it is enough to us , to prove that which is Essential , to have been successive : we be not bound in order to the proof of our Church it self , to prove the succession of every thing that maketh but to its better being . Yet professing , that we do it not as necessary to our main cause , we shall ex abundanti prove the negative , that the Catholike Church hath not alwaies owned the Papal Soveraignty , and so that there have been men that were not only Christians , but as we , Christians without Popery , and against it : and so shall both prove our Thesis , and overthrow theirs . Arg. 4. If there have been since the daies of Christ , a Christian Church that was not subject to the Roman Pope , as the Vicar of Christ and universal Head and Governour of the Church ; then the Church of which the Protestants are members , hath been visible both in its being , and its freedom from Popery . But the Antecedent is true : therefore so is the consequent . I shall prove the Antecedent , and therein the visibility of our Church , and the non-existence in those times of the Papacy . Arg. 1. My first Argument shall be from the general Council of Chalcedon . If the priviledges of the Roman Sea were given to it by the Bishops consequently because of the Empire of that City , and therefore equal priviledges after given to Constantinople on the same account ; then had not Rome those priviledges from the Apostles ( and consequently the whole Catholike Church was without them ) . But the Antecedent is affirmed by that fourth great approved Council : In Act. 16. Bin. p. 134. [ We everywhere following the definitions of the holy Fathers , and the Canon , and the things that have been now read , of the hundred and fifty Bishops most beloved to God , that were congregate under the Emperour Theodosius the great of pious memory , in the Royal City of Constantinople , new Rome , we also knowing them , have defined the same things concerning the priviledges of the same most holy Church of Constantinople , new Rome : For to the seat of old Rome , because of the Empire of that City , the Fathers consequently gave the priviledges . And the hundred and fifty Bishops , most beloved of God , being moved with the same intention , have given equal priviledges to the most holy seat of new Rome : reasonably judging , that the City adorned with the Empire and Senate , shall enjoy equal priviledges with old Regal Rome . ] Here we have the Testimony of one of the greatest general Councils , of the humane original of Romes priviledges . Bellarmine hath nothing to say , but that they spoke falsly , and that this clause was not confirmed by the Pope ( which are fully answered by me elsewhere . ) But this is nothing to our present business : It is a matter of fact that I use their Testimony for . And if all the Bishops in two of the most approved general Councils , ( called the Representative Catholike Church ) were not competent witnesses in such a case , to tell us what was done , and what was not done in those times , then we have none . The Papists can pretend to no higher testimony on their part . The Church it self therefore hath here decided the controversie . And yet note , that even these priviledges of Rome were none of his pretended universal Government . It s in vain to talk of the Testimonies of particular Doctors , if the most renowned general Councils cannot be believed . Yet I will add an Argument from them as conjunct . Arg. 2. Had the Roman universal Soveraignty , as essential to the Catholike Church , been known in the daies of Tertullian , Cyprian , Athanasius , Nazianzen , Nyssen , Basil , Optatus , Augustine , and the other Doctors that confounded the Heresies or Schisms of those times ( e. g. the Novatians , Donatists , Arrians , &c. ) the said Doctors would have plainly and frequently insisted on it for the conviction of those Hereticks and Schismaticks : But this they do not : therefore it was not known in those times . The consequence of the Major is evident hence : The Doctors of the Church were men at least of common wit and prudence in the matters which they did debate : therefore they would have insisted on this argument , if then it had been known . The reason of the consequence is , because it had been most obvious , easie , and potent to dispatch their controversies . 1. When the Arrians and many other Hereticks denied Christs eternal Godhead , had it not been the shortest expeditious course , to have cited them to the barr of the Judge of controversies , the infallible Soveraign Head of the Church ; and convinced them that they were to stand to his judgement ? 2. Had not this Argument been at hand , to have confounded all Heresies at once , [ That which agreeth not with the Belief of the Roman Pope and Church is false : But such is your opinion : therefore ] 2. So for the Donatists ; when they disputed for so many years against the Catholikes , which was the true Church , had it not been Augustins shortest , surest way to have argued thus : That only is the true Church that is subject to the Pope of Rome , and adhereth to him : But so do not you : therefore . ] Either the Arrians , Donatists and such others did believe the Papal Soveraignty and Vicarship , or not : If they did , 1. How is it possible they should actually reject both the Doctrine and Communion of the Pope and Roman Church ? 2. And why did not the Fathers rebuke them for sinning against conscience , and their own profession herein ? But if they did not believe the Papal Soveraignty , then 2. How came it to pass that the Fathers did labour no more to convince them of that ( now supposed ) fundamentall Errour ? when 1. It is supposed as hainous a sin as many of the rest . 2. And was the maintainer of the rest . Had they but first demonstrated to them , that the Pope was their Governour and Judge , and that his Headship being essentiall to the Church , it must needs be of his faith , all Heresies might have been confuted , the people satisfied , and the controversies dispatched in a few words . 3. Either Arrians , Donatists , Novatians , and such like , were before their defection acquainted with the Roman Soveraignty , or not . If they were not , then it is a sign it was not commonly then received in the Church , and that there were multitudes of Christians that were no Papists : If they were , then why did not the Fathers , 1. Urge them with this as a granted truth , till they had renounced it ? 2. And then why did they not charge this defection from the Pope upon them , among their hainous crimes ? why did they not tell them , that they were subjected to him as soon as they were made Christians ; and therefore they should not perfidiously revolt from him ? How is it that we find not this point disputed by them on both sides , yea and as copiously as the rest , when it would have ended all ? And for the Minor , that the Fathers have not thus dealt with Hereticks , the whole Books of Tertullian , Nazianzen , Nyssen , Basil , Optatus , Hierom , Augustine , and others are open certain witnesses . They use no such Argument , but fill their Books with others ; most imprudently and vainly , if they had known of this , and had believed it . Otherwise the Papists would never have been put to gather up a few impertinent scraps to make a shew with . We see by experience here among us , that this point is Voluminously debated ; and if we differ in other matters , the Papists call us to the Roman bar , and bring in this as the principall difference . And why would it not have been so then between the Fathers , and the Donatists , Arrians , and such like , if the Fathers had believed this ? It s clear hence that the Papall Vicarship was then unknown to the Church of Christ. Arg. 3. The Tradition witnessed by the greater part of the Universal Church saith , that the Papal Vicarship or Soveraignty is an innovation and usurpation , and that the Catholick Church was many hundred years without it : Therefore there was then no such Papal Church . This is not a single testimony , nor of ten thousand , or ten millions , but of the Major Vote of the whole Church ; and in Councils the Major Vote stands for the whole . If this witness therefore be refused , we cannot expect that the words of a few Doctors should be credited ; Nor may they expect that we credit any witness of theirs , that is not more credible . And that the Antecedent is true , is known to the world ; as we know that the Turks believe in Mahomet , by the common consent of history and travellers . Part of the Churches anathematize the Romans , and part more modestly disown them , and the generality that subject not themselves do profess that Popery is an usurpation , and that in the ancient Church it was not so ; and this they have by Tradition from generation to generation . And if the Roman pretended Tradition be with them of value , the Tradition of the far greater part of the Church is with us to be of more . We must despair of satisfying them with witness , if most of the Christian world be rejected , and the Tradition of the greatest part of the Church be taken to be false in a matter of publick notorious fact . Arg. 4. Many Churches without the verge of the Roman Empire , never subjected themselves to Rome , ( and many not of many hundred years after Christ : ) therefore there were visible Christian Churches from the beginning , to this day , that were not for the Roman Vicarship . That abundance of Churches were planted by the Apostles , without the reach of the Roman Empire , is plentifully testified by the ancients , and the Papists commonly confess it . That these were under the Papal Government , all the Papists in the world cannot prove . The contrary is confessed by them , and proved by us . 1. They came not so much as to Generall Councils . 2. They had no Bishops ordained by the Pope , or any impowred by him . 3. They never appealed to him . 4. They never had any causes judged by him . 5. They performed no obedience to him , nor lived under his Laws ; nor scarce had any communion with him , more then the common communion that is held in Charity , and common faith and ordinances with all . Such were the Indians , the Persians , the further Armenia and Parthia , the Habassines and many more . And of long time the English and the Scots , that refused so much as to eat and drink in the same Inn with the Roman Legates : much less would obey him , so much as in the change of Easter day ; we challenge them to shew us any appearance of subjection to the Pope in the generality of the Churches without the Empire . But you say , that the Habassines were under the Patriarch of Alexandria , and he under the Pope . Ans. 1. If that were true , yet what 's that to all the rest ? 2. Give us your proof that the Abassines were under the Patriarch of Alexandria , before that Patriarch broke off his communion with Rome . The Canons of Pisanus , of yesterdayes invention , we regard not : Surely the true Canons of Nice ( Can. 6. ) measure out no more to the Patriarch of Alexandria , but Aegypt , Lybia , and Pentapolis . There 's no mention of Ethiopia : And it s not like that the greatest part of his Province would have been left out . 3. If it had been so , yet we utterly deny that ever the Pope had the Government of the Alexandrian Patriarch : Only for a little while he had a precedency in honorary Title , and in Councils ; as the City of London is preferred before York , but doth not Govern it at all . Here therefore ( without the Roman Empire ) you may see those Churches that have successively been visible , and yet no Papists . This your Raynerius confesseth contr . Waldens . Catalog . in Bibliothec. Patr. Tom. 4. pag. 773. saying [ Armeniorum Ecclesiae , & Aethiopum , & Indorum , & caeterae qua● Apostoli converterunt , non subsunt Romanae Ecclesiae . ] See Godignus de Rebus Abassinorum , of their Antiquity . Arg. 5. The Eastern Churches within the Empire were never subjects of the Pope : therefore there have been and are Churches Visible , that neither were nor are his subjects . The Antecedent I have proved in my Key for Catholicks , from the Council of Carthage's Letters to Pope Coelestine , after their resistance of Zosimus ; and divers testimonies from Basil and others . And they can give us themselves no plausible appearance of a proof of that subjection which they assert : no more then the younger Justices on the Bench are subject to the elder , or the Jury to the foreman , or a Master of Arts in a Colledge to a Batchelor in Divinity , or then the Mayor of Bristoll is to the Mayor of York . 1. The Pope never chose the Patriarchs of Alexandria , Antioch , &c. 2. It did not belong to him to ordain them : nor did he authorize any other to do it , nor did they receive or hold their power from him . 3. They receive no Laws of his to Rule by . 4. They were not commanded or Judged by him . 5. The Patriarch of Constantinople had equall Priviledges with him . So that here is nothing like to Soveraignty and subjection , nor any acknowledgement of an universal Vicar of Christ. Communion indeed they held with Rome , as they did with one another , till pride divided them ; but Communion is one thing , and Subjection is another . The Greek Church never gave them this . Arg. 6. My next Argument to prove the Novelty of their Church as Papal , and consequently that the Universal Church was void of Popery , and therefore of the same Religion with Protestants , shall be from the testimony of their own most magnified Bishops . Gregory 1. Epist. Regist. l. 4. c. 80. speaking against the Patriarch of Constantinople , for usurping the Title of Oecumenicall Patriarch , or Universal Bishop , saith ( fol. 181 , 182. Edit . Paris . 1551. ) [ Sicut enim veneranda vestra sanctitas novit , mihi per sanctam Chalcedonensem Synodum Pontifici sedis Apostolicae , cui Deo disponente deservio , hoc Vniversalitatis nomen oblatum est : sed Nullus unquam decessorum meorum hoc tam prophano vocabulo uti consensit . Quia viz , si Vnus Patriarcha Vniversalis dicitur , Patriarcharum nomen Caeteris derogatur . Sed absit hoc , absit à Christiana mente , id sibi velle quempiam arripere , unde fratrum suorum honorem imminuere ex quantulacunque parte videatur . Cum ergo nos hunc honorem nolumus oblatum suscipere ; pensate quam ign●miniosum sit hunc sibi quempiam violenter usurpare voluisse Propterea sunctitas vestra in suis Epist●lis neminem Universalem nominet , ne sibi debitum detrahat , cum alteri honorem offert indebitum . ] 1. Here he affirmeth that the Title of Vniversal was never used by any of his predecessors nor received . 2. That it is a prophane Title . 3. That it is an injury to other Patriarchs . 4. That its unbeseeming a Christian mind to assume it . 5. That its undue . 6. He perswaded the Bishops of Alexandria and Antioch to give it to no man whosoever . Obj. But he saith that the Council of Chalcedon offered it him . Ans. 1. If he renounce it as undue and prophane , and say that de facto none of his predecessors took it , this is as much as we desire . 2. That at the Council of Chalcedon , near 150. years before this , two Deacons ( that they say have no Votes ) call'd Theodorus and Ischirion , did superscribe their Libels , to Leo Vniversal Archbishop , I find ; but no more : And this is it that Gregory here brags of : And what 's two Deacons to the Council ? Obj. But it is only the Name and not the Thing that he disclaims , and that is in modesty . Ans. 1. How then could he censure the name as undue , injurious , prophane , and blasphemous , if he owned the Thing ? seeing aptanda sunt verba rebus : words are to be fitted to Things . 2. But I shall confute this fully from his following words . [ Ita ut Vniversa sibi tentet ascribere , & omnia quae soli uni capiti cohaerent , videlicet Christo , per elationem pompatici sermonis , ejusdem Christi sibi studeat membra subjugare . ] Here it is plain 1. That it is the Thing as well as the Name that Gregory wrote against . 2. And that it is also a palpable fiction of the Papists ( for want of a better ) that Gregory opposeth only such an Universal Episcopacy as taketh away all Episcopacy from others . Ridiculous ! They would make us believe , that Iohn of Constantinople would have had no Bishop in the world but himself ; and that the Council that gave him the Title , intended all to degrade themselves ; and that there were no Bishops under him ever after ; when other Councils confirmed his Title . On the contrary , you here see 1. That there is but one Head , even Christ. 2. And that Iohns sin in arrogating the Title [ Vniversal ] was , that he would subjugate , or subject all Christs Members to himself . And is not this now the very form of Popery , which Gregory makes so great a sin ? even to subject all Christs Members to one , as an Universal Patriarch or Bishop ? Yea much higher Titles do they arrogate , even to be [ the Vicar of Christ , and God , and in stead of Christ and God ; and to be the Vice-Christ . ] He proceeds [ Nec mirum quod ille tentator , qui initium omnis peccati scit esse superbiam , &c. ] Making the Devil the author of this Title . He adds a weighty reason [ si enim hoc dici licenter permittitur , honor Patriarcharum omnium negatur . Et cum fortasse is in errore periit qui Vniversalis dicitur , nullus jam Episcopus remansisse in statu veritatis invenitur ] or as more plainly before c. 76. fol. 180. in the Epist. to the Emperour Maurice [ si igitur illud nomen in ea Ecclesia sibi quisquam arripuit , quod apud bonorum omnium judicium fuit : Vniversa ergo Ecclesia , quod absit , à statu suo corruit , quando is qui appellatur Vniversalis cadit ] The reason is plain , because the Head of every political society is essential to it : and therefore if the Head of the Universal Church fall away to Heresie or Infidelity , the Church falls : as Bellarmine knew when he told us , that if the Pope should erre in determining , the Church would be bound to take evil for good , and vice for vertue . He proceeds in the same Epist. ad Maur. Imperat. [ Sed absit à Cordibus Christianorum nomen istud blasphemiae , &c. ] [ Far be this name of blasphemy from the hearts of Christians , &c. ] And after again saith [ Sed nullus eorum unquam . hoc singularitatis vocabulum assumpsit , nec uti consensit ] That none of the Roman Bishops did ever assume this name of singularity , nor consent to use it . ] And therefore he concludes to the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch , c. 80. [ Oportet ergo ut constanter ac sine praejudicio servetis sicut accepistis Ecclesias , & nihil sibi in nobis haec tentatio diabolicae usurpationis ascribat . State sortes , state securi ; Scripta cum Vniversalis nominis falsitate , nec dare unquam , nec recipere praesumatis ] He chargeth them never to give or take writing with the falshood of this name [ Vniversal ] as being from the Devils tentation . And in Ep. 38. c. 82. to Iohn Const. himself he calls it [ Nefandum elationis vocabulum ] and the cause [ Nefandum & prophanum tumorem ] and after he calls it [ the usurping of a proud and foolish word . ] To all this Bellarmine miserably answereth de Pontif. Rom. l. 2. c. 31. that the title [ Universal ] as it signifieth a sole Bishop to whom all other are but Vicars , is indeed profane , sacrilegious and Anrichristian , and is it that Gregory speaks against , but not as it excludeth not particular Bishops , ] To which I answer , 1. To be the Vicarius of a Superiour , is not an exclusion . The Pope saith he is the Vicar of Christ the chief Pastour and Bishop of souls : and all Pastours are to Preach the Word of reconciliation in his name and stead , 1 Cor. 5.19 . and yet they are not thereby excluded from being Pastours . If to be Christs servants , may consist with Episcopacy ; much more to be his Vicarii over their particular flocks . Rather this is too high an honour for us to assume . I do not think that all the Clergy under the Pope , do think themselves honoured so much as they should be if they were his Vicars . 2. Hath not that man sold his conscience to his cause , that will perswade the world that the Patriarch of Constantinople was about to unbishop all the Bishops in the world except himself ? Let any man shew us by tolerable proof , that Iohn of Constant●nople did claim any higher a power over all others , or would bring other Bishops by his Universality to be lower , then the Pope of Rome doth by his Universality , and then I will confess that Papists only have eyes and reason , and all the world besides are blind , and mad , or beasts . Their cause is at a fair pass , when they must fly to such palpable falshoods , as makes them the wonder of their sober readers . 3. I proved before from the express words of Gregory , that it is Superiority of Government , and making all other Bishops subject to him , that he condemned in the Patriarch of Constantinople . And no doubt he made not the least of his arrogancy : Nor do I believe that it can be proved that Iohn , or the Council that gave him the Title , did ever intend so much as a Universal Government , which the Pope now usurpeth ; but only a Primacy before all , which Popes were then striving for . For the Greeks to this day disclaim it , and they never strove to exercise it . I will give you more of Gregories words to put the question past doubt , Cap. 82. Ep. 38. to Iohn , saith [ Humilitatem ergo frater charissime totis vis●eribus dilige , per quam cunctorum fratrum concordia & sanctae Vniversalis Ecclesiae unitas v●leat custodiri : Certe Paulus Apost●lus cum audiret quosdam dicere , Ego sum Pauli , ego Apollo , ego vero Cophae , hanc dilacerationem corporis Dominici , per quam membra ejus aliis quodammodo se capitibus sociabant , vehementissimè perhorrescens exclamavit , dicens : Nunquid Paulus pro vobis crucifixus est : aut in nomine Pauli baptizati estis ? Sic ergo ille membra Dominici corporis certis extra Christum quasi capitibus , & ipsis quidem Apostolis subjici particulariter evitavit : Tu quid Christo Vniversalis scilicet Ecclesiae capiti , in extremi judicii es dicturus examine , qui cuncta ejus membra tibimet conaris Vniversalis appellatione supponere ! ] Here you see 1. That the unity and concord of the Church is not maintained by universal Headship , but by fraternal communion and humility . 2. That it wounded Paul , and should do us , to see the Church make men as it were their heads , though they were Apostles , and though Peter was one of them : and that extra Christum , beside Christ , none , no not Peter should be as a Head to Christs members . 3. Much more abominable is it for any man to pretend to be the universal Bishop or Head to all Christs members : 4. That the sin of this usurpation was against Christ the Churches Head , and that before him in Judgement the usurper of universal Episcopacy will be confounded for this very thing . 5. And that the crime of this title of universal Bishop was , that it endeavoured to put all Christs members under him that used it ( tibimet supponere : ) not to exclude all other Bishops , but to put under him all Christs members . These are the words of Gregory : and if men can make what their list of words so full and plain , and oft repeated in many Epistles , what hope have they that their Judge of Controversies should do any more to end their Controversies then Scripture hath done , which they cannot understand without such an unintelligible Judge ? He proceeds ( ibid. ) [ Quis ergo in hoc tam perverso vocabulo , nisi ille ad imitandum proponitur , qui despectis Angelorum legionibus , secum socialiter constitutis , ad culmen conatus est singularitatis erumpere , ut & nulli subesse , & solus omnibus praeesse videretur . ] He maketh him the imitator of the Devil , that aspiring above the rest of the Angels , fell by pride . But Bellarmine hath three Reasons to prove yet that Gregory after all this meant not the universal Headship or Episcopacy indeed . 1. Because the holy Council of Chalcedon offered it him . Ans. 1. A fair offer ! because two or three Deacons inscribed their Libels to him with the name of universal Archbishop : And we must believe that the Council approved of this , though we cannot prove it . Or if they called him the Head , as the City of London is the Head City in England , and the Earle of Arundel the Head Earle , or the Lord Chancelour the Head Judge , that yet have no Government of the rest , what advantage were this to the Roman Vicarship ? 2. If Gregory judge the name so blasphemous , when it signifieth an universal Governour of the Church , surely he believed that the Council offered it not to him in that sence , but as he was the Episcopus primae sedis . 3. But again , I say the matter of fact is it that I am enquiring of : And I have the testimony of this Roman Bishop that none of his Predecessors would receive that name . 2. But saith Bellarmine , he saith that the care of the whole Church was committed to Peter , which is all one . ] Ans. 1. But so it was committed also to the rest of the Apostles : Paul had on him the care of all the Churches , that claimed no Headship . 2. He expr●sly excludeth Peters Headship , both in the words before recited , and after , saying [ Certe Petrus Apostolus primum membrum ( or rather as Dr. Iames Corrupt . of the Fathers Part. 2. p. 60 saith he found it in seven written Copies , [ Apostolorum primus membrum ] Sanctae & Vniversalis Ecclesiae est : Paulus , Andreas , Iohannes , quid ●liud quam singularium sunt plebium capita ? Et tamen sub uno capite omnes membra sunt Ecclesiae ] that is [ Peter the first of the Apostles , is a member of the holy and universal Church : Paul , Andrew , Iohn , what are they but the Heads of the singular flocks of the people ? And yet all are members of the Church under one Head ] ( that is , Christ ) so that Christ is the only Head : Peter is but a member , as the other Apostles are ; but not a Head. 3. But saith Bellarmine , Gregory could not but know that the title of Episcopus Vniversalis Ecclesiae , which is all one , had been oft assumed by the Popes . ] Ans. 1. Whether was Bellarmine or Gregory the wiser man ? at least the fitter interpreter of those words : would Gregory have made them so blasphemous , foolish , prophane , and devilish , if he had thought them of the same importance with those which his Predecessors used ? Or was he so silly as not to know that this might have been retorted on him ? What a silly ●or , what a wicked dissembling hypocrite , doth Bellarmine feign Pope Gregory to have been ? 2. But verily did the Learned Jesuite believe himself that [ Vniversalis Episcopus Ecclesiae ] & Episcopus Ecclesiae Vniversalis ] are of the same signification ? Every Bishop in the world , that adhered to the common Communion of Chr●●●ians and was a Catholike , was wont to be called [ a Bishop of the Catholike Church , ] and is indeed such ; but he is not therefore [ the universal Bishop of the Church . ] But Bellarmine will not charge Gregory of such horrid dissimulation without reason . His first reason is , [ that Gregory did it for caution , to prevent abuse . ] Ans. What! charge it with blasphemy , prophaness , devilism , wronging all the Church , and also to excommunicate men for it , and all this to prevent abuse , when he held it lawful ! Did hell ever hatch worse hypocrisie then this that he fathers on his holiest Pope ? But 2. His other reason is worse then this ; forsooth [ because the question was only whether Iohn of Constantinople should have this title , and not whether the Bishop of Rome should have it : and therefore Gregory simply and absolutely pronounceth the name sacrilegious and prophane , that is , as given to Iohn , ( but not to himself ) yet he refused it himself , though due to him , that he might the better repress the pride of the Bishop of Constantinople . ] Ans. The sum is then , that Gregory did meerly lye and dissemble for his own end . He labours to prove that blasphemous , sacrilegious , &c. which he desired ; But we will not judge so odiously of the Pope as Papists do . Doth he charge the other Patriarchs and Bishops to give it no man ? doth he blame them after in other Epistles that gave him that Title ? and doth he profess that never any of his Predecessors received it , and make so hainous a matter of it , and yet all this while approve it as for himself ? Who will believe a Saint to be so diabolical , that calls it an imitation of the Devil ? You see now what the Roman Cause is come to , and whether their Church as Papal , that is , their Universal Soveraignty , be not sprung up since Gregories dayes . Hear him a little further ( ibid. ) [ Atque ut cuncta breviter cingalo locutionis adstringam : sancti ante Legem , sancti sub Lege , sancti sub Gratia , omnes hi perficientes Corpus Domini in membris sunt Ecclesiae constituti , & nemo se unquam Vniversalem vocare voluit : Vestra autem sanctitas agnoscat quantum apud se tumeat , quae illo nomine vocari appetit , quo vocari nullus praesumpsit , qui veraciter sanctus fuit . ] That is , [ And to bind up all in the girdle of speech , the Saints before the Law , the Saints under the Law , the Saints under Grace , all these making up the Body of Christ , were placed among the Members of the Church , yet never man would be called Universal . Let your Holiness therefore consider how with your self you swell , that desire to be called by that name , by which no man hath presumed to be called that was truly Holy. ] Well! if this be not as p●●in as Protestants speak against Popery , I will never hope to understand a Pope I only add , that Gregory makes this usurpation of the name of an Universal Bishop a forerunner of Antichrist : And that Pope Pelagius condemned it before him ; which Gratian puts into their Decrees , or Canon Law. And that he took the Churches authority to be greater then his own , when he tells Iohn , [ Sed quoad in mea correptione despicior , restat ut Ecclesiam debeam adhibere . ] Lib. 7. Ep. 30. Dixi nec mihi vos , nec cuiquam alteri tale aliquid scribere debere : & ecce in praefatione epistolae quam ad meipsum qui prohibui direxistis , s●perbae appellationis verbum , Universalem me Papam dicentes , imprimere curastis . Quod peto dulcissima sanctitas vestra , ultra non faciat : quia vobis subtrahitur , quod alteri plusquam ratio exigit , praebetur . ] See then whether it be not judged by him undue to himself as well as to others . And what the weight of the matter seemed to him , judge more by these words , Ep. 83. l. 4. ad Arrian . In isto scelesto vocabulo consentire , nihil est aliud quam fidem perdere . ] [ To consent in that wicked word , is nothing else but to lose ( or destroy ) the faith . ] That is , apostasie . And l. 6. c. 194. Mauric . Aug. Ego fidenter dico , quia quisquis se universalem sacerdotem vocat , vel vocare desiderat , in elatione sua Antichristum praecurrit ; quia superbiendo se caeteris praeponit , nec dispari superbia ad errorem ducitur . ] Arg. 7. The Papists themselves confess , that multitudes of Christians , if not most by far , have been the opposers of the Pope , or none of his subjects : therefore by their Testimony there have been visible Churches of such . Aeneas Sylvius , after Pope Pius 2. saith , small regard was had to the Church of Rome before the Council of Nice . Bellarmine saith , This is partly true , by reason of the persecution of those ages , and partly false . Ans. But , if true , we prove the matter of fact , and leave Bellarmine better to prove his Reason . If it be false , then their own Historians are not to be believed , ●hough worthy to be Popes . And then w●at historicall testimony will they believe ? Voluminously do their Historians mention the Opposition of the Greeks on one side , and of the Emperours and Kings , and Divines , that were under the Popes Patriarchal power ; as Mich. Goldastus in abundance of Treatises hath manifested . I gave before the testimony of Reynerius , that the Churches planted by the Apostles , were not under the Pope . I shall once more recite the words of Melch. Canus , Loc. Theol. lib. 6. cap. 7. fol. 201. [ Not only the Greeks , but almost all ( N. B. ) the rest of the Bishops of the whole world , have vehemently fought to destroy the Priviledge of the Church of Rome : and indeed they had on their side , both the Arms of Emperours , and the greater Number of Churches ; and yet they could never prevail to abrogate the Power of the One Pope of Rome . ] By the Papists confession then most of the Churches , and almost all the Bishops of the whole world , and the Emperours & their Armies , have vehemently fought to abrogate the Popes power , and destroy the Priviledges of Rome . Reynerius his testimony concerning the Antiquity of the Waldenses , as from Pope Sylvesters dayes , if not the Apostles , hath been oft cited : Had they been but from Gregories dayes , it had been enough , when we have his own Testimony , that no Bishop of Rome would own ( to that time ) that wicked , prophane , sacrilegious , foolish , blasphemous , dividing name of Vniversal Patriarch or Bishop , which who ever holds to , destroys the faith . Arg. 8. The next Argument should have been from the Historical Testimony of the Ancients , that the Papal Soveraignty was then no part of the Churches faith , nor owned by them . But here to produce the Testimonies of all ages , would be to write a Volume in Folio , on this one Argument alone : For how can the History of all Ages be so particularly delivered out of such a Multitude of Books , but in a multitude of words ? And it is done already so fully , that I provoke the Papists to answer the Catalogues and historicall Evidence given in , if they can . If you ask where , I will now only tell you of , 1. Blondell against Perron d● Primatu in Ecclesia ( in French ) that shews you the torrent of Antiquity against the Papal Soveraignty . 2. Molinaeus ( in French ) de Novitate Papismi against the same Perron . 3. Bishop Vsher , de statu & successione Ecclesiarum , and his Answer to the ●esuites challenge . 4. Dr. Field of the Church , who lib. 5. answereth Bellarmines allegations from all sort of Antiquity , which are their strength . I pass by many others , some of which I have named in the foresaid 3. Dispute of the safe Religion : where also I have produced more of this evidence then they can answer . At least much more then you have returned me in your last Paper for the contrary , to which I desire your answer : For it s in vain to write one thing so oft . I shall only instance in the currant Testimony of their own Historians , of the Beginning of their Universal Headship . Saith Regino Chron. l. 1. An. 808. p. 13. [ Bonifacius obtinuit apud Phocam Principem , ut sedes Romana Caput esset omnium Ecclesiarum : quia Ecclesia Constantin●p●litana primum se omnium Ecclesiarum scribebat . ] Hermannus Contractus , An. M. 4550. p. 122. [ Hoc tempore Phocas Romanam Ecclesiam omnium Ecclesi●rum Caput esse constituit : Nam Constantinop . primam se esse scripsit . ] So Marianus Scotus in Phoc. [ Bonifacius P. 67. impetravit á Phoca Caesare ut sedes Apostolica Romana Caput esset Ecclesiae , quum antea Constantinopolis Primam omnium se scriberet . ] The same hath Sigebertus Gemblac . An. 607. p. 526. And so Compilat . Chron. and many more . Beneventus de Rambaldis Lib. Augustali , saith p. 8. in Phoca [ Phocas occi●●r Manritii — qui Primus constituit , Quod Ecclesia esset Caput omnium Ecclesiarum : Cum prius Constantin . supremum se nominaret . ] Mark here the [ Primus Constituit . ] So Beda , P. Diaconus , Anastasius , Pomponius Laetus , &c. And of the Novelty of their worship , saith Platina in Gregor . 1. [ What should I say more of this holy man ! whose whole institution of the Church office , specially the old one , was invented and approved by him ? which Order I would we did follow : then Learned men would not at this day abhor the reading of the Office — ] So that here is all invented new by Gregory ( which was hardly received in Spain ) and yet that changed since . Arg. 9. If the Generality of Christians in the first ages , and many ( if not most ) in the later ages , have been free from the Essentials of the Papists faith , ●hen their faith hath had no successive Visible Church professing it in all ages ; but the Christians that are against it have been Visible : But the Antecedent is true : as I prove in some instances . 1. It is an Article of their faith determined in a General Council at Laterane and Florence , that the Pope is above a Council : But that this hath not been successively received , the Council of Basil and Constance witness , making it a new Heresie . 2. It is an Article of their faith , that a Generall Council is above the Pope : for it is so determined at Basil and Constance : But that this hath had no successive duration , the Council of Laterane and Florence witness . 3. It is an Article of their faith , that the Pope may depose Princes for denying Transubstantiation and such like Heresies , and also such as will not exterminate such Hereticks from their dominions , and may give their dominions to others , and discharge their Subjects from their oaths and fidelity : For it is determined so in a Council at Laterane : But this hath not been so from the beginning : Not when the 13. Chapter to the Romans was written : Not till the dayes of Constantine : Not till the dayes of Gregory that spake in contrary language to Princes : And Goldastus his three Volumes of Antiquities shew you , that there hath been many Churches still against it . 4. It is an Article of their faith , that the Body and Blood , together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ , is truly , really , and substantially in the Eucharist , and that there is a Change made of the whole substance of Bread into the body , and of the whole substance of Wine into the blood , which they call Transubstantiation . ] So the Council of Trent : But the Catholick Church hath been of a contrary judgement from age to age , as among many others , Edm. Albertinus de Eucharist . hath plainly evinced ( though a quarreller hath denyed it and little more ) : And it s proved , in that successively they judged sense ( and Reason by it ) a competent discerner of Bread and Wine . 5. It is now de fide that the true Sacrament is rightly taken under one kind ( without the cup ) as the Councils of Constance and Trent shew . But the Catholick Church hath practised , and the Apostles and the Church taught otherwise , as the Council of Constance , and their Writers ordinarily confess . 6. It is an Article of their faith ( as appears in the Trent Oath ) that we must never take and interpret Scripture , but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers ] : But the Catholick Church before these Fathers could not be of that mind : and the Fathers themselves are of a contrary mind : and so are many learned Papists . 7. It is an Article of their faith , that there is a Purgatory , and that the souls there detained are holpen by the suffrages of the faithful . But the latter was strange to all the old Catholick Church ( as Bishop Vsher and others have proved ) and the very being of Purgatory , was but a new , doubtfull , indifferent opinion of some very few men , about Augustines time . 8. It is now an Article of their faith , that [ the holy Catholick Church of Rome is the mother and mistris of all Churches . ] But I have shewed here and elsewhere , that the Catholick Church judged otherwise , and so doth for the most part to this day . 9. It is now an Article of their faith , that their Traditions are to be received with equall pious affection and reverence as the holy Scripture . But the Catholick Church did never so believe . 10. The Council of Basil made it de fide , that the Virgin Mary was conceived without Originall sin : But the Catholick Church never judged so . 11. It s determined by a Council now , that the people may not read the Scripture in a known tongue without the Popes License : But the Catholick Church never so thought , as I have proved , Disp. 3. of the safe Religion . 12. The Books of Maccabees and others are now taken into the Canon of faith , which the Catholick Church received not as such : as Dr. Cosin , and Dr. Reignolds have fully proved . To this I might add the Novelty of their Worship and Discipline ; but it would be too tedious : and I have said enough of these in other writings . See Dr. Challoner , pag. 88 , 89. In 16. points Dr. Challoner proveth your Novelty from your Confessions . Indeed his Book de Eccles. Cath. though small , is a full answer to your main Question . Arg. 10. If Multitudes ( yea the far greatest part ) of Christians in all ages have been ignorant of Popery , but not of Christianity ; then hath there been a succession of Visible Professors of Christianity that were no Papists : but the antecedent is true : therefore so is the consequent . In this age it is an apparent thing , that the far greatest part are ignorant of formal Popery . 1. They confess themselves that the common people , and most of the nobility of Habassia , Armenia , Greece , Russia , and most other Eastern Churches that are not Papists , are ignorant of the Controversie . 2. They use to tell us here among Protestants , that there is not one of many that know what a Papist is . 3. We know that of those that go under the name of Papists , there is not one of a multitude knoweth . We hear it from the mouths of those we speak with : I have not met with one of ten of the poorer sort of them , even here among us , that knoweth what a Papist or Popery is ; but they are taught to follow their Priests , and to say that theirs is the true Church and old Religion , and to use their Ceremonious worship , and to forbear coming to our Churches , &c. and this is their Religion . And in Ireland they are yet far more ignorant : And it s well known to be so in other parts : Their Priests they know , and the Pope they hear of , as some person of eminent Power in the Church : But whether he be the Universal Vicar of Christ , and be over all others as well as them & whether this be of Gods institution , or by the grant of Emperours or Councils , &c. they know not . And no wonder , when the Papists think that the Council of Chalcedon spoke falsly of the humane Originall of the Primacy in the Imperiall territories : And when the Councils of Basil and Constance knew not whether Pope or Council was the Head. And that the people were as ignorant and much more in former ages , they testifie themselves : And before Gregories dayes they must needs be ignorant of that which was not then risen in the world . Yea Dr. Field hath largely proved , Append . lib. 3. that even the many particular points in which the Papists now differ from us , were but the opinions of a faction among them before Luther : and that the Western Church before Luther was Protestant , even in those particular Controversies ; though this is a thing that we need not prove . And as Dr. Potter tells them , pag. 68. [ The Roman Doctors do not fully and absolutely agree in any one point among themselves , but only in such points wherein they agree with us : In the other disputed between us , they differ one from another as much almost as they differ from us . ] He appeals for this to Bellarmines Tomes . Though I cannot undertake to make this good in every point , yet that proper Popery was held but by a Faction in the Western Church , even at its height before Luther , is easily made good . He that readeth but the Writers before Luther , and in History noteth the desires of Emperours , Kings , and Universities , and Bishops , for Reformation of the things that we have reformed , may soon see this to be very true . It was Avitas Leges & consuetudines Angliae ( as Rog. Hoved●n and Matth. Paris in H. 2. shew ) that the Pope here damned , and anathematized all that favoured and observed them ( O tender Father , even to Kings ! O enemy of Novelties ! ) The German History collected by Reuberus , Pistorus , Freherus and Goldastus , shews it as p●ain as day light , that a Papal Faction by fury and turbulency , kept under the far greater part of the Church by force , that indeed dissented from them , even from Hildebrands dayes till Luthers , or near . Saith the Apologia Henrici 4. Imperat. in M. Fr●heri Tom. 1. p. 178. [ Behold Pope Hildebrands Bishops , when doubtless they are murderers of Souls and bodies — such as deservedly are called the Synagogue of Satan — yet they write , that on his and on their side ( or party ) is the holy Mother Church : When the Catholick , that is , the Universal Church , is not in the Schism of any side , ( or parties ) but in the Universality of the faithfull agreeing together by the spirit of Peace and Charity . ] And p. 179. [ See how this Minister of the Devil is beside himself , and would draw us with him into the ditch of perdition ? that writeth that Gods holy Priesthood is with only 13. or few more Bishops of Hildebrands : and that the Priesthood of all the rest through the world are separated from the Church of God : when certainly , not only the testimony of Gregory and Innocent , but the judgement of all the holy Fathers agree with that of Cyprian — that he is an Alien , prophane , an enemy ; that he cannot have God for his Father , that holdeth not the Unity of the Church : which he after describeth to have one Priesthood . ] Et p. 181. [ But some that go out from us say and write , that they defend the party of their Gregory : not the Whole , which is Christs , which is the Catholick Church of Christ. ] And p. 180. [ But our Adversaries ( that went from us , not we from them ) use thus to commend themselves — We are the Catholicks , we are in the Unity of the Church . ] So the Writer calls them Catholicks , and us that hold the faith of the holy Fathers , that consent with all good men , that love peace and brotherhood , — us he calls Schismaticks and Hereticks , and Excommunicate , because we resist not the King — ] And p. 181. [ Isidore saith , Etym. l. 8. The Church is called Catholick , because it is not as the conventicles of Hereticks , confined in certain countries , but diffused through the whole world : therefore they have not the Catholick faith that are in a part , and not in the Whole which Christ hath redeemed , and must reign with Christ. ] They that confess in the Creed , that they believe the holy Catholick Church , and being divided into parties hold not the Unity of the Church : which Unity , believers being of one heart and one soul , properly belongs to the Catholick Church . ] So this Apol. One Objection I must here remove , which is all and n●thing : viz. That the Armenians , Greeks , Georgians , Abassines , and many others here named , differ from Protestants in many points of faith ; and therefore they cannot be of the same Church . Ans. 1. They differ in nothing Essentiall to our Church or Religion , nor near the Essence . 2. Protestants differ in some lesser points , and yet you call them all Protestants your selves . 3. I prove undeniably from your own pens , that men differing in matters of faith , are all taken to be of your Church , and so of one Church , ( and therefore you contradict your selves in making all points of faith to be Essentials of the Christian Religion or Church . ) 1. The Council of Basil and Constance differed de fide with the Pop● and the Council of Laterane and Florence : They expresly affirm their doctrine to be de fide , that the Council is above the Pope , and may depose him , &c. and the contrary Heresie . And Pighius ( Hierarch . Eccles. lib. 6. ) saith , that these Councils went [ against the undoubted faith and judgement of the Orthodox Church it self . ] 2. Their Saint Tho. Aquinas , and most of their Doctors with him , differ from the second Council of Nice , in holding the Cross and Image of Christ to be worshipped with Latria , which that Council determined against . See more Arguments in my Key for Cath. p. 127 ▪ 128. and after . I will now add a Testimony sufficient to silence Papists in this point : and that is , The Determination of the Theological faculty of Paris under their great Seal , against one Iohan. de Montesono ordinis Praedic . as you may find it after the rest of the Errors rejected by that University , in the end of Lombard , printed at Paris 1557. pag. 426. Their 3. Conclusion is , that [ Saint Thom. Aquin. doctrine is not so approved by the Church , as that we must believe that it is in no part of it erroneous de fide ( in matter of faith ) or hereticall . They prove it , because it hath many contradictions , even in matter of faith ; and therefore they ought not to believe it not hereticall . Here fol. 426 , 427. they give six examples of his contradictions : and therefore they conclude , that though he were no Heretick ( because not pertinacious ) yet they ought not to believe that his doctrine was in no part hereticall , or erroneous in the faith . They further argue thus [ If we must believe his doctrine not hereticall , &c. this should be chiefly , because it is approved by the Church . But there is some doctrine much more approved by the Church then the doctrine of S. Tho. which yet is in some part of it hereticall or erroneous in the faith : therefore — The Minor they prove by many examples . The first is of Peters doctrine , Gal. 2. ( I own not this by citing it : ) The second is of Cyprian . The third of Hierom ; and they add , that the same may be said of Augustine , and many more approved Doctors . The fourth example is Lombard himself , who they say hath somewhat erroneous in the faith . The fifth is Gratian , who had he pertinaciously adhered to his doctrine , they say , had been a manifest Heretick : And ( say they ) some say the like of the Ordinary Glosses of the Bible , which yet seem of greater authority then Aquinas . The sixth example is of some not Canonized Saints , as Anselm . Cantuar. Hugo de Sancto Victore , and others , as authentick as S. Thomas . ] [ And ( say they ) his Canonization , hindereth not , which some pretend as of great colour — To say that S. Tho. in some part of his doctrine erred in faith , derogates not from his Canonization , nor from the approbation of his Theologicall doctrine : even as to say this of other Saints and chief Doctors derogateth not from their Canonization or approbation . For as the Church by Canonizing one a Saint , doth not thereby approve all his Deeds , so in approving his doctrine , it doth not hereby approve all his sayings or writings , but only that which is not retracted by himself , or corrected by another , or deservedly to be corrected as contrary to truth . And now when Fathers , even the chief , and your Saints and highest Doctors have this Testimony from the famous University of Paris , to have somewhat hereticall or erroneous in the faith ( and so who among you is free ? ) I leave it to modesty to judge , whether the Greeks , Armenians , &c. and we , are not of one Faith , Religion , and Catholick Church , for all our differences in some points ! Have you had all these Nations man by man before your bar , and convinced them of pertinaciousness in heresie ? If not , call them not Hereticks till you are willing to be called such your selves , and that by your selves . And thus I have evinced , 1. That the Church of which the Protestants are Members , hath been Visible since the dayes of Christ on earth . 2. And ex abundanti , that the Papal Church as Papal hath not been visible , and that Christian Churches without Papal Soveraignty have been Visible since Gregories dayes , and the whole Catholick Church was such before . And you see both in the Essentialls , and in the freedom from the Romish Vice-Christ , where our Church hath been before Luther , even since Christ. Sir , I have performed this task on this supposed condition , that you will now do the like as to your own Church ; and send me in solid Arguments your proof of this Thesis . [ The Church of which the Subjects of the Pope are Members , hath been Visible ever since the dayes of Christ on earth . ] Where note , that it is not the Visibility of your Church as Christian , United in Christ the Head , that is in Question : We grant , as Christians , all of you are of the true Christian Church that destroy not your Christianity : But it is your new Church form , as Papal , that we question , and renounce . Protestants are of no Church but the Christian united in Christ : The name Protestant signifieth not any essentiall of their Church , but their Rejection of your Church as Headed by the Pope : You are therefore to prove that your Catholick Church as Headed by the Pope hath been visible in all ages . And here I must in Justice expect , that you give us such a Definition as you will stand to through the dispute , 1. Of [ the Church ] 2. Of [ the Pope ] and 3. [ Of the Subjects of the Pope ] or [ Papists . ] The term [ Roman Catholicks ] would but divert and elude : For it is not as [ Romane ] that we oppose you , that is , as inhabitants of Rome , or as subject to him as a Bishop of Rome : Nor is it as [ Catholicks ] that is , as of the Universal Christian Church : but as [ Papists ] that is , [ subjects of the Pope as universal Soveraign , or Bishop . ] To dispute of terms not agreed on , is lost labour : Define first , or you do nothing . I find of your Writers , some by the [ Church ] mean [ the Pope ] as Gretser Defens . cap. 10. lib. 3. de Verbo Dei , pag. 1450 , 1451. [ By the Church ( saith he ) we mean the Pope of Rome ] and [ per Ecclesiam Papam interpretantur : Non abnuo . ] Some by [ the Church ] mean [ a Council ] and what they mean by [ a Council ] I know not well . And some mean [ the Roman Clergy ] i. e. of that Diocess : And some mean [ all the Clergy under the Pope : ] And some mean [ all the people that are his subjects . ] I have given you the Reason of my doubting of your meaning in these terms , in a Book come out of the Press since your last to me , where I have answered most of yours . 2. Let me desire of you such proofs as in your own judgement are cogent . I suppose ( as I have there told you , Key pag. 41. cap. 12. ) that none of you will take either Sense , Reason , Scripture , the Tradition or judgement of most of the Church for a sufficient proof : but yet we will accept of them , when you argue but ad hominem : for we renounce them not . I think what ever you say , that is not the Determination of the Pope or a Council by him approved ( which is all one ) you will give us leave to judge that you are uncertain your selves whether you say true in it , if de fide . Saith Skul . Revius Apol. pro Bell●rm . c. 6. p. 255. The Popes Power is as the hinge , the foundation , and ( that I may comprehend all in a word ) the summ of the Christian faith . Greg. Valent. Anal. fid . l. 8. c. 7. [ The Authority that resideth in the Pope alone , is called the Authority of the Church and Councils . [ Bell●r . de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 3. [ It is apparent that the whole firmness ( or strength ) of Councils is from the Pope ; not partly of the Pope , and partly of the Council . ] Binnius Vol. 2. p. 515. saith [ Every Council hath just so much strength and authority , as the Apostolike seat bestoweth on it . ] But I leave you to give us your own judgement . Your Testimonies from Fathers can seem of no great weight to us , while you so slight them your selves as commonly you do : with what lies , or Errors , or other incompetency , you charge Iustin Mart. Irenaeus , Tertullian , Origen , Victorinus , Cyprian , Eusebius , Epiphanius , Prudentius , Hierom , Lactantius , Augustine , Procopius , Theodoret , Isidore , Euthymius , Sozomen , Oecumenius , Bernard , and all the Fathers , see Dr. Iames Corrupt . of Fath. Part. 4. p. 2 , 3. Tell us therefore how far you credit them . Sir if you refuse thus first to explain your terms , and then prove the Visibility of your Church , as Papal , successively , as I have proved the Visibility of the Church that I am of , I shall be forced to conclude , that you love not the light , but at once give up your cause , and the reputation of your impartial Love of truth . Addenda Miscellanea . COncil . Ephes. 1. in Epistola ad Nestor . Tom. 1 fol. 315. ed. Pet. Crab. [ Petrus & Iohannes aequalis sunt ad alterutrum dignitatis . ] Comment . in epist Synodal . Basil. p. 31. & p. 40. Impress . Colon. 1613. saith that [ The Provinces subject to the four great Patriarchs from the beginning of the Christian Church , did know no other supream but their own Patriarcks — And if the Pope be a Patriarck , it is by the Church ; If he be Head of all Churches , it is by the Church . And whereas we have said that it is expressed in the Council of Nice , that many Princes were subjected to the Church of Rome by Ecclesiastical custom , and no other right ; the Synod should do the greatest injury to the Bishop of Rome , if it should attribute those things to him only from custom , which were his due by Divine Right . ] This Citation I take from Bishop Bromhall , having not seen the Book my self . The Popish Bishop of Calced●n , Survey cap. 5. [ To us it sufficeth that the Bishop of Rome is Saint Peters successour ; and this all the Fathers testifie , and all the Catholick Church believeth : but whether it be jure divino , or humano , is no point of Faith. ] An ingenuous Confession destroying Popery . See Aubert Miraeus notitia Episcopat . where in the antient Notit . and Leunclavius record of Leo Philos. Impera . There are none of the Abassine , or other extramperial Nations under the old Patriarcks . Cassander Epist. 37. D. Ximenio ( operum p. 1132. ) saith of that learned pious Bishop of Valentia Monlucius , ( so highly commended by Thuanus and other learned men ) that he said , Si sibi permittatur in his tribus capitibus [ viz. forma publicarum precum , de ritibus Baptismi , de formâ Eucharistiae , sive Missae ) Christianam formam ad normam priscae Ecclesiae Institutam legi , con●idere se quod ex quinquaginta mill . quos habet in suâ Dioecesi à praesenti disciplina Ecclesiae diversos , quaùraginta millia ad Ecclesiasticam uni●n●m sit reducturus ] That is , If he had but leave in these three heads ( the form of publick Prayers , of the rites of Baptism , and the form of the Eucharist or the Mass ) to follow the Christian form Instituted according to the rule of the Antient Church , he was confident that of fifty thousand that he had in his Diocess that differed from the present discipline of the Church , he should reduce forty thousand to Ecclesiastical union . ] By this testimony it is plain that the Church of Rome hath forsaken the antient Discipline and Worship of the Church by Innovation ; and that the Protestants desire the restitution of it , and would be satisfied therewith , but cannot obtain it at the Papists hands . So Cass●nder himself , Epist. 42 p. 1138. [ I would not despair of moderation , if they that hold the Church possessions would remove some intolerable abuses , and would restore at tolerable form of the Church , according to the prescript of the Word of God , and of the antient Church , especially that which flourished for some ages after Constantine , when liberty was restored : which if they will not do , and that betime , there is danger they may in many places be cast out of their possessions . ] Still you see Rome is the Innovator ; and it is Restitution of the antient Church-form that would have quieted the Protestans , which could never be obtained . So again more plainly , Epist. 45. p. 1141. Whether Hereticks are in the Church . When I came to London , I enquired after Mr. Iohnson , to know whether I might at all expect any Answer to the foregoing Papers , or not : And at last instead of an Answer , I received only these ensuing lines . PAg. 5. part 1. You say , I reply first , had not you despaired of making good your cause , you should have gone by argumentation , till you had forced me to contradict some common principle . Now I have by Argumentation , forced you to this , if you will maintain what after you seem to assert in divers passages , ( viz. ) That Hereticks are true parts of Christs Catholick Church ; for thus you write p. 11. Some are called Hereticks for denying points essential to Christianity ; those are no Christians , and so not in the Church ; but many also are called Hereticks by you , and by the Fathers for lesser Errours consistent with Christianity ; And these may be in the Church : And p. 12. you answer thus to your adversary : Whereas you say it is against all antiquity and Christianity to admit condemned Hereticks into the Church ; I reply first , I hate their condemnation , rather then reverence it ; where you saying nothing against their admittance into the Church , seem to grant it . I therefore humbly entreate you to declare your opinion more fully in this question ; Whether any professed Hereticks , properly so called , are true parts of the universal visible Church of Christ ; so that they compose one universal Church with the other visible parts of it . Iunii 6 to . William Johnson . The Answer . ANsw. My words are plain , and distinctly answer your question , so that I know not what more is needful for the explication of my sense ; Unless you would call us back from the Thing to the meer Name , by your [ properly so called , ] you are answered already . But I would speak as plainly as I can , and if it be possible for me to be understood by you , I shall do my part . 1. It is supposed that you and I are not agreed What the Vniversal visible Church it self is , while you take the Pope , or any meer humane Head to be an essential part ; which is an assertion that with much abhorrence I deny . You think each member of that Church must necessarily ad esse , be a subject of the Pope ; and I think it enough that he be a subject of Christ ; and to his orderly and well-being , that he hold local Communion with the parts within the reach of his capacity , and be subject to the Pastors that are set over him ; maintaining due association with and charity to the rest of the more distinct members , as he is capable of communion with them at that distance . So that when I have proved a person to be a member of the Catholick Church , it is not your Catholick Church that I mean : No ●ound Christian is a member of yours ; it is Hereticks ( in the softer sense ) that are its matter . It s necessary therefore that we first agree of the Definition of the Catholick Church , before we dispute who is in it . 2. Your word [ Properly so called ] is ambiguous ; referring either to the Etymologie , or to some definition in an authentick Canon ; or to custom and common speech . Of the first , we have no reason now to enter controversie : For the second , I know no such stablisht Definition that we are agreed on : For the third , custom is so variable here , not agreeing with it self , that what is to be denominated Proper or Improper from it , is not to be well conjectured . However all this is but de nomine ; and What is the proper , and What the improper use of the word Heretick , is no Article of Faith , nor necessary for our debate . Therefore again you must accept of my distinguishing , and give me leave to fly confusion . 1. The word [ Heretick ] is either spoken of one that corrupteth the Doctrine of Faith ( as such ) , or of one that upon some difference of Opinion , or some personal quarrels , withdraweth from the Communion of those particular Churches that before he held communion with , and gathereth a separated party : such are most usually called Schismaticks ; but of o●d , the name [ Hereticks ] was oft applyed unto such . 2. The word [ Heretick ] in the ●irst sense , is either spoken of one that ( professing the rest ) denyeth some one or more essential Articles of the Faith , or parts of Christianity ; or one that only denyeth not what is necessary to the Being , but to the Integrality or sober and better-being of a Christian. 3. Hereticks are either convict and condemned , or such as never were tryed and judged . 4. Hereticks condemned , are either condemned by their proper Pastors , or by others . 5. If by others , either by Usurpers , or by meer equal neighbour consociate Pastors . 6. They are condemned either j●stly cl●ve non errante , or unjustly clave errante . 7. They are either judged to be materially , as to the quality of their errour , Hereticks ; or also formally as obstinate , impenitent and habitually stated Hereticks . Upon these necessary distinctions , I answer your Question in these Propositions . Prop. 1. As the word [ Hereticks ] signifieth Schismaticks as such , so Hereticks with drawing from some parts of the universal Church only , may yet be parts of the who●e ( even with those parts from which they separate ) . If they say [ You are no parts , and therefore we disown you , and will have no Communion with you ] this maketh neither cease to be parts ] and while both own the Head and the Body as such , they have an union in tertio , and so a communion in the principal respects , while they peevishly disclaim it in other respects . Besides that the local or particular Communion , is it that is proper to members of a particular Church , and therefore the renouncing it only separates him from that Church . But it is the general Communion that belongs to us as members of the Church Universal , which may be still continued . But should any renounce the Body of Christ as such , and separate ( not from this or that Church , but ) from the whole , or from the Church Universal as such , this man would be no member of the Church . Prop. 2. As the word [ Heretick ] is taken for one that denyeth any thing essential to Christianity ; so an Heretick , if latent , is out of the Church Deo judice , as to the invisible part , or soul of the Church , ( as Bellarmine calls it ) as a latent Infidel is ; but he may be ( if latent ) in the outward communion , or ( as Bellarmine calls him ) a dead member , that properly is none ; as the straw and chaffe are in the corn-field . Prop. 3. Such an Heretick convict and judged by the Pastors of that particular Church , of which he is a subject-member , is accordingly to be avoided , and in foro illius Ecclesiae , is so far cast out of that Church , as the sentence importeth . Prop. 4. Such an Heretick , if he be a Pastor of one Church , and be convict and condemned by the consociate co-equal Pastors of the neighbour Churches , is accordingly cast out from communion of all the Churches , of which they are Pastors . Prop. 5. So far as any Christians through the world have sufficient proof or cognisance of the said conviction and condemnation , they are all bound accordingly to esteem the condemned Heretick , and avoid him . Prop 6. If [ Heresie ] be taken for the obstinate , impenitent resisting or rejecting of any point of Faith ( that is , of Divine Revelation ) which is made so plain to the person , that nothing but a wicked will could cause such resistance or rejection , such persons being justly convicted and condemned as aforesaid , are to be taken as persons condemned for obstinacy and impenitency in any other sin ; and are out of the Church , as far as a man condemned for impenitency in drunkenness or fornication is . Prop. 7. Heresie taken in this softer sense ( for the denyal of a truth of Divine revelation , not essential to the Christian Religion , or necessary to the Being of a Christian ) excludeth no man from the Church of it self , unless they are legally convict of wicked Impenitency and obstinacy in defending it . Prop. 8. A sentence passed in alieno foro , by an Usurper that hath no true Authority thereto , proveth no man an Heretick . Prop. 9. A sentence passed by an Authorized Pastor , ( or by many ) if it be notoriously unjust , clave errante , proveth no man an Heretick , or out of the Universal Church . Prop. 10. A sentence passed by one Church , or many consociate , binds none to take the condemned person to be an Heretick , and out of the Universal Church , but those that have sufficient notice of the Authority of the Judges , and validity of the Evidence , or a ground of violent presumption ( as it s called ) that the sentence is just . Prop. 11. He that is sentenced an Heretick or Impenitent by the Pastors of some Churches , and acquit by the equally-authorized Pastors of other Churches , is not eo nomine to be condemned or acquit by a third Church , but used as the evidence requireth . Prop. 12. There is an actual excommunication pro medelâ and pro tempore , due for an actual , willful defence of error , or for other willful sin ; which statedly puts not a man out of the Church ; as there is an excommunication à statu & Relatione , which is due for stated habitual or obstinate impenitency in that or other great or known sin . Having thus distinctly told you my judgement how far Hereticks are , or are not in or out of the universal Church , I add in order to the application : 1. That this whole debate is nothing to the great difference between you and us , it being not de fide in your own account , but a dogma theologicum , which you differ about among your selves : Bellarmine tells you Alphonsus a Castro maintaineth that Hereticks are in the Church ( de Eccles. l. 3. c. 4. ) And he himself saith that haeretici pertinent ad Ecclesiam ut oves ad ovile unde confugerunt , ibid. c. 4. so that they are oves still , and if it be but ovile particulare ( veluti Romanum ) that they fly from , and not the Vniversal , that proves them not out of the Vniversal Church . And Bellarmine saith of the Catechumen . & Excommunicatis , that they are de anima , et si non de corpore Ecclesiae , ib. c. 2. and may be saved , cap. 6. And the anima Ecclesiae is not incorporated in the world without : All that have that soul , are of that Church which Christ ( that animateth his members ) is the head of . Which made Melchior Canus ( fatente Bellarmino de Eccl. l. 3. c. 3. ) confess the being of that which indeed is the true Catholike Church , saying of the Vnbaptized Believers , that [ sunt de Ecclesia quae comprehendit omnes fideles ab Abel usque ad consummationem mundi . ] 2. Many Popes have been condemned for Hereticks , even by General Councils , as not only Henorius ( by two or three ) but Eugenius by the Council of Basil , when yet he kept his place , and the rest come in as his successors . And your writers frequently confess that a Pope may be an Heretick ( as Pope Adrian himself affirmeth . ) Now if these are not of the Church , then they are not Heads of the Church , and then being essential parts of your Church , it followeth that your Church is heretical and unchurched with them . But if these Popes may be in the Church ( and Heads of yours ) while Hereticks , then so may others . 3. It s commonly said by others ( of yours ) as well as Bellarmine , that the Councils were misinformed about Honorius , ( and the Popes that consented to those Councils ) and so that he was not a Heretick nor out of the Church : Also that a Pope may erre in matter of fact , and unjustly excommunicate . If so , a Pope and Council may erre about another , as well as about Honorius or other Popes ; and therefore their sentence be no proof that such are out of the Church , no more then that he and Eugenius were out . 4. As the Pope and his Synods condemn the Greeke , so the Greeks condemn and excommunicate you ; as formerly the Patriarch of Constantinople , and the Pope have excommunicated each other . I am therefore no more bound to take them for excommunicate persons , than you , they having as much authority over you as you over them , and their witness being to us as credible as yours . 5. The Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , &c. are not proved to deny any essential point of the Christian Religion , or which is necessary to the Being of a Christian or Church . 6. Nor are they proved to be willful , obstinate and impenitent in defending any errors , with a wicked mind ; and so to be formally Hereticks in your own sense . 7. They are large Nations , and millions of souls , and their Pastours numerous , so that its impossible they should be all legally by you convicted . They never spake for themselves , nor were witnesses heard against them . Noxa caput sequitur . Guilt of Heresie is to be proved of each individual whom you condemn . If a few Bishops were Hereticks , or a Prince were such , that proves not that the rest , and all the Pastors , or people , even to many mill●ons are such . Or if half had been such in former ages , that proves not that half or any are such now . Christ never appointed the excommunicating of millions for the sakes of a few of their Rulers , nor of whole Nations unheard ; but of single persons upon a just and equal tryal . If therefore your Pope , or any of his Councils , ( which you falsly call General ) do excommunicate or condemn Habassia , Armenia , Georgia , Syria , and other Na●ions as Hereticks , it is so far from unchurching them , or proving them such , as that it is one of the greatest sins that can be committed by the sons of men , with inhumane injustice , cruelty , pride and arrogancy , presuming to pass a damning sentence on so many millions of souls , whose faces you never saw , nor were ever called to a legal tryal . 8. Your own writers ordinarily acquit the Greeks from Heresie ; and those of them that have travelled to other Countries , as Syria , &c. acquit most of them , as I have proved in former writings out of their own words ( not needful therefore here to be recited , when you may see any writings . ] 9. Your Pope ( and Bishops ) is none of their authorized Pastor , and therefore hath no power as such to judge them . And as neighbour Churches they have as much to do to judge you as you to judge them . Therefore they are never the more out of the Church for your judgement , any more than you for theirs . 10. There are as many and as great errors proved by them to be in your Church as is by you to be in theirs : so that ( in sum ) your cause being much worse , and your censure of them proving you guilty of such inhumane cruelty , injustice , arrogancy , usurpation , &c. by condemning them , you go much nearer to prove your selves no Christians and no Church than them . 11. And yet I think the far greatest part of them ( many thousands to one ) are not actually excommunicated or condemned by any pretended sentence of your own , whatever your writers may say of them , and whatever one Council might say of some few in some one age . 12. Lastly , It can be no matter of certainty to you your self , or any of you , that these Nations or Churches are Hereticks , both because it is a thing that none of your approved Councils have determined of , as to any person now living , nor to any considerable number comparatively , in other ages ; and also because you confess your Pope and Councils fallible in these cases , of fact and personal application . You cannot therefore build upon such acknowledged uncertainties . BUt Sir , having thus answered your demand , I must ask you , what 's all this to the Answer of my last Papers , which I have now near a year expected from you ? I suspected some such ●ergiversation , when I took the boldness to urge you so hard to the tasks that you were reasonably engaged to perform , viz. 1. To prove by close Argumentation , the nullity of our Churches , as you begun in your first Argument . 2. To answer my proofs of our successive visibility . 3. To prove your own successive visibility in all ages since Christ , as I have proved ours . I do therefore once more urge you speedily to do this , assuring you that else I must take it for an open deserting of your Cause . But yet I must add , that if you will please to dispute the main cause in difference between us , upon equal terms ; we have yet other Questions in which we differ , that are lower then these , and nearer the foundation . Besides the forementioned work therefore , I desire , that you will dispute the main Cause , in two distinct disputations , in one of which be you the Opponent , and bring your strongest Arguments against the Reformed Churches and Religion ; and in the other I will be Opponent and argue against Popery ; in the beginning agreeing upon the sense of those terms that we are like to have greatest use of through our disputation . If you will but let us meet , and state our sense of such terms , before I return into the Country , that we may the better manage it after at a distance , it will be worth our labour : And for verbal dispute , I shall at any fit time and place most cheerfully entertain it , if so many doubting persons may be present , as that it may be worth our labour . In the mean time I pray pardon it , if the roughness of any passages discover the frailty of Your Servant , R. Baxter . Iune 7. 1660. Mr. Iohnsons EXPLICATION OF Some of the most used TERMS : WITH QUERIES Thereupon : And his ANSWER : And my REPLY . LONDON , Printed , 1660. AFter the writing of the foregoing Paper , I again urged Mr. Johnson to the speedy answering my Papers : Of which when he gave me no hope , I committed them to the Press . But afterward , he seemed more inclinable both to that , and to a Verbal conference : And in order to both , ( if we had opportunity ) I desired him first that we might agree on the sense of those terms that are like to be most used in the substance of our Controversie ; promising him that I will give him my sense of any term , when he shall desire it ; and accordingly he explained his sense of many of them as followeth . Queries of R. B. on these definitions , with Mr. Iohnsons Answer , and my Reply . Mr. J. The Catholick Church of Christ. THE Catholick Church of Christ is all those visible Assemblies , Congregations , or Communities of Christians , who live in unity of true faith , and external communion one with another , and in dependance of their lawful Pastors . R. B. Of the Church . Qu. 1. Whether you exclude not all those converted among Infidels , that never had external Communion with , nor were members of any particular visible Church , of which you m●ke the Catholick to be constituted ? Mr. J. Answ. It is sufficient that such be subject to the supream Pastor , and in voto , quantum in se est , resolved to be of that particular Church actually , which shall , or may be assigned for them by that Pastor , to be included in my definition . R. B. Reply . Q 1. Repl. ad 1 m 1. You see then that your Definitions signifie nothing : no man can know your meaning by them . First you make the Catholick Church to consist only of visible Assemblies : and after you allow such to be members of the Church that are of no visible Assemblies 2. You now mention subjection to the supream Pastor as sufficient , which in your description or definition you did not . 3. If to be only in voto resolved to be of a particular Church will serve , then inexistence is not necessary . To be only in voto of the Catholick Church , proves no man a member of the Catholick Church , but proves the contrary , because it is Terminus diminuens . Seeing then by your own confession , inexistence in a particular Church is not of necessity to inexistence in the Catholike Church ; why do you not only mention it in your definition , but confine the Church to such ? will you say you meant in voto ? who then can understand you , when you say they must be of visible Assemblies , and mean , they need not be of any , but only to wish , desire or purpose it ? 4. But yet you say nothing to my case in its latitude . Many a one may be converted to Christ by a solitary Preacher , or by two or three , that ne●er tell him that there is any supream Pastor in the world : How then can he be subject to that supposed Pastor , that never heard of him ? The English and Dutch convert many Indians to the faith of Christ , that never hear of a supream Pastor . 5. If it be necessary that a particular Church must be assigned for such members by the supream Pastor , then they are yet little the better that never have any such assignation from him ( as few have ▪ ) R. B. Qu. 2. What is that faith in unity whereof all members of the Catholike Church do live ? is it the belief of all that God hath revealed to be believed ; or of part ? and what part ? Mr. J. Answ. Of all ; either explicitly , or implicitly . R. B. Reply . Reply , Ad 2m. Your second answer further proves that your definitions signifie just nothing . They must live in unity of the faith : that is , either with faith or without it : with a belief of what Go● hath revealed to be believed , or without it . For to believe any point implicitly , in your ordinary sense , is not to believe it , but only to believe one of the Premises , whence the conclusion must be inferred . But why do you not tell me what you mean by [ an Implicite faith ] ? Faith is called Implicite in several senses . 1. When several truths are actually understood and believed in confuso , or in gross , in some one proposition which containeth the substance of them all ; but not with accurate distinct conceptions , nor such as are ripe for any fit expression : This indistinct , immature , imperfect kind of apprehension may be called Implicite ; and the distinct and more digested conceptions Explicite . 2. When a general proposition is believed as the matter of our faith , but the particulars are not understood or not believed : As to believe that omne animal vivit , not knowing whether you are Animal or Cadaver . Or to believe that [ all that is in the Scripture is the Word of God and true , ] but not to know [ what is in the Scripture ] . 3. When it is only the formal object of faith that is believed , without understanding the material object . The first sort of these , I confess , is Actual Belief , though indistinct : But I suppose you mean not this . 1. Because it is not the ordinary sense of your party . 2. Because else you damn either all the world , or most of your own professed-party at least as no members of the Church : for few or none have an Actual understanding and belief of all that ever God revealed to them ; because all men ( or most at least ) have been sinfully negligent in searching after , and receiving truth ; and so are sinfully ignorant : No man knoweth all that God hath revealed , or that he ought to know . 3. Because by this rule it is impossible for you or any man to know who is indeed a member of your Church ; for you cannot know mens confused knowledge , or know that it extendeth to all revealed : For if you speak of all revealed in general , or in Scripture , you still damn all , ( or most in your own sense ) for none , as I said , understand it all to a word : But if you speak of all which that particular man hath had sufficient means to know , it is then impossible for you to make a judgement of any mans faith by this : For you can never discern all the means ( internal or external ) that ever he had ; much less can you discern whether his faith be commensurate to the truth so far revealed . So that by this course you make your Church invisible . I pray tell me how you can avoid it ? 2. The second sort of Implicite Belief , is no Belief of the particulars at all . An Animal may live , and yet it followeth not that you are alive or an animal . If this were your meaning , then either you mean [ that it is enough if all be believed Implicitly besides that general proposition ] ; or you mean that some must be believed explicitly ( that is actually ) and some Implicitly , ( that is , not at all ) . If the former be your sense , then Infidels or Heathens may be of your Church . For a man may believe in general that [ the Bible is the Word of God and true ] and yet not know a word that 's in it ; and so not know that Christ is the Messias , or that ever there was such a person . But if somewhat must be explicitely ( that is , Actually ) believed , the Question that you should have answered was , [ What is it ? ] For till that be known , no man can know a Member of your Church by your description . 3. If you take [ Implicite ] in the third sense , then Implicite faith is either Divine or Humane . Divine , when the Divine Veracity is the formal Object . Humane , when mans Veracity is the formal Object . Which may be Conjunct where the Testimonies are so conjunct , as that we are sure it is God that speaks by man ; who is therefore credible because God infallibly guideth or inspireth him : This is at once to believe a Humane and Divine Veracity . If any of this be your meaning , the last questions remain still to be resolved by you . A man may believe that [ God is true , ] and that [ his Prophets or inspired messengers are true ] and yet not understand a word of the message : so that still if this will serve , a man may be of your Church that knoweth not that ever there was such a person as Jesus Christ , or that ever he died for our sins , or rose again , or that we shall rise . And are Infidels of your Church while you are arguing us out ? But if there be some truths besides the Veracity of God ( and his Messengers ) that must be believed , you must shew what it is , or your Church-members cannot be known . Tell me therefore without tergiversation , [ what are the revealed truths that must actually be believed ] or [ what is the faith materially , in unity whereof all members of the Catholike Church do live ? ] I pray fly not , but plainly tell me . And if again you fly to uncertain points , because of the diversity of means of information , and say , [ It must be so much to every man as he had means to know ] I again answer you . 1. If a man had no means to know that there is a Christ , it seems then he is one of your Church . 2. You still damn all your own , there being not a man that knoweth all that he had means to know , because all have culpably neglected means . And so you have no Church . 3. Still you make your Church invisible ( if you had any : ) For no man can tell , as I said , who knoweth in full proportion to his helps and means . Do you not see now whither your Implicite faith hath brought you ? R. B. Qu. 3. Is it any lawful Pastors , or All , that must necessarily be depended on by every member ? and who are these Pastors ? Mr. J. Answ. Of all , respectively to each subject ; that is , that the authority of none of them , mediate or immediate , be rejected or contemned by him , that is a true member of the Church . R. B. Reply . Ad Qu. 3. R. Reply 1. Here still you tell me that your descriptions signified nothing . You told me that the members must [ live in dependance on their lawful Pastors . ] And now you tell me that [ their authority must not be rejected or contemned . ] And indeed , is dependance and non-rejection all one ? The millions of heathens that never heard of the Pope or any of your Pastors reject them not , nor contemn them : Are they therefore fit matter for your Church ? 2. If you say , that you mean it of such only as have a sufficient Revelation of the Authority of these Pastors , I further reply . 1. It seems then it is not only the Pope , but every Priest respectively that is an essential member of your Church ; or to whom each member must be subject necessarily ad esse . If so , then every man that by falling out or prejudice , doth culpably reject the authority of any one Pastor or Priest among a swarm , is damned , or none of the Church , though he believe in the Pope and in twenty thousand Priests besides . 2. And then have we not cause to pray God to bless us from the company of your Priests ? or at least , that we may not have too many , when among a multitude we may be in danger of rejecting some one , and then we are cast out of the Church ! What if a Gentleman should find some such as Watson or Montaltus describe in bed with his wife ; or a Prince find a Garnet , a Campion , or a Parsons in a Treason , and by such a temptation should be so weak , as to contemn , or reject the authority of that single Priest , while he honoureth all the rest : Is it certain , that such a man is none of the Catholike Church for that ? How hard is it in France and Italy then to be a Catholike , where Priests are so numerous , that its ten to one , but among the crowd the authority of some one may be rejected ! 3. But is it all the Priests that we never knew , or knew not to be Priests , that we must depend on , or is it only those whose authority is manifested to us by sufficient evidence ? Doubtless you will confine our dependance to these only ( or else no man could be a Christian : ) And if so , you know we are never the nearer a resolution for your answer , till you yet tell us how we must know our Pastors to have authority indeed . What if they shew me the Bishops orders , and I know that many have had forged Orders ? am I bound to believe in his authority ? what if I be utterly ignorant whether he that ordained him , were himself ordained ? or had intentionem ordinandi ? how shall I then be sure of his authority that is ordained ? And how can the people be acquainted with the passages in Election and Ordination that are necessary to the knowledge of their authority ? especially of the Popes and prelates . And what if you tell me your own opinion , of the sufficient means by which I must be convinced of the Popes and Priests authority ? how shall I know that you are not deceived ; and that these are the sufficient means indeed , unless a General Council have defined them to be sufficient ? And if they have , if it were not as an Article of faith , you 'l say I am not bound of necessity to believe their definition . And what if I have sufficient means to know the authority of a thousand Priests , but am culpably ignorant of it in some few through my neglect ? Doth it follow that therefore I am out of the Church ? Is my obedience to each Priest as necessary , as my belief of every Article of my faith ? If so , I know not whether your multiplying Articles , or multiplying Priests , doth fill hell faster , if men must be judged by your laws . But it is our Allegiance to our Soveraign , that is the character of a Subject in the Common-wealth , and not our Allegiance , or duty to every inferiour Magistrate : the rejection of one of them may stand with subjection , though not with innocency : It is not treason to reject a Constable : why then should more be necessary to our Church-membership and salvation ? But still you make your Church invisible : For as no man can know that liveth in the remote parts of the world , whether your Popes themselves are truly Popes , as being duly qualified and elected , nor which is the true Pope , when you have oft had more then one at once ; so you can never know concerning your members , whether their dependance on their Pastors be extensively proportionate to the means that discovered their authority ? and whether their disobedience unchurch them or no ? I earnestly crave your answer to the thirty uncertainties , which I have mentioned in my Safe Religion , p. 93 , to 104. And tell us how all our Pastours may be known . And whether every particular sin unchurch men ? and if not , why the contempt or rejection of a drunken Priest doth it , while all the rest are ( perhaps too much ) honoured ? R. B. Quest. 4. Why exclude you the chief Pastors , that depend on none ? Mr. J. Answ. I exclude them not , but include them ▪ as those of whom all the rest depend ; as St. Hierom does in his definition , Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo unita . Repl. ad Resp. ad Quest. 4. How unconstant are you among your selves in the use of terms ? How frequent is it with you to appropriate the name of [ the Church ] to the Clergy ? But remember hereafter , when you tell us of the Determinations , and Traditions of the Church , that it is the people that you mean , and not only the Pastors in Council ; much less the Pope alone . Mr. J. Heresie . Is an intellectual obstinate opposition against divine authority revealing , when it is sufficiently propounded . R. B. Of Heresie . Is the opposition and obstinacy that makes Heresie , in the Intellect or will ? Mr. J. In the will , by an imperate Act , restraining the understanding to that errour . R. B. Reply . Of Heresie . Qu. 1. Reply 1. Still your descriptions signifie just nothing . You describe Heresie to be An Intellectual obstinate Opposition ; and yet say that this is in the will. And yet again you contradict your self by saying that it is an Imperate act . No Imperate act is in the will , though it be from the will. It is voluntary , but not in voluntate . An Imperant act may be in the will , but not Imperate . All Imperate acts are in ( or immediately by the commanded faculties . ) The Intelligere , which is the Imperate act , is in the Intellect : though the Velle intelligere , which is an Elicite act , be in the will. 2. From hence its plain that you cannot prove me or any man to be an Heretick that is unfeignedly willing to know the truth , and is not obstinately willful in opposing it : which are things that you cannot ordinarily discern and prove by others , that are ready to be sworn that they would fain know the truth . R. B. Qu. 2. Must it needs be against the Formal object of Faith ? is he no Heretick , that denieth the matter revealed , without opposing obstinately the Authority revealing ? Mr. J. Answ. Yes . Nor is he a Formal , but only a Material Heretick , who opposes a revealed Truth , which is not sufficiently propounded to him to be a Divine revelation . R. B. Reply . Qu. 2. Reply 2. Every man that believeth that there is a God indeed , believeth that he is true : For if he be not True , he is not God. If therefore no man be Formally an Heretick , that doth not obstinately oppose the Veracity of God , which is the formal object , then as there are I hope but few Hereticks in the world , so those few cannot by ordinary means be known to you : unless they will say that they take God to be a lyar , so that you make none Hereticks indeed but Atheists . What if a man deny that there is a Christ , a Heaven , a Hell , or a Resurrection ? and also deny the Revelation it self , by which he should discern these truths ? and yet deny not the Veracity of God , ( no nor of the Church ? ) is this no Heretick ? I would your party that have murdered so many thousands as Hereticks , had so judged : ( if a falshood may be wished , as a thing permitted , to have prevented such a mischief . ) It is not Gods Veracity that is commonly denyed by Hereticks , but the thing revealed , and the Revelation of that thing : And your Turnebul against Baronius hath told you , that the Revelation is no part of the Formal object of faith , but as it were the Copula , or a condition sine qua non . If he that obstinately refuseth to believe that the Godhead of Christ , or the Holy Ghost is any where by God revealed , and so denyeth it , be no Heretick , unless he also obstinately deny or resist the Veracity of God ; then there are few that you can prove Hereticks . ( For forma dat nomen ; and he that is not a Heretick Formally , but materially only , is no Heretick at all . ) Lastly , many a truth is sinfully neglected by the members of the Church ; that have a proposal sufficient , and yet not effectual through their own fault : and yet they are no Hereticks . Millions in your Church are ignorant of truths sufficiently proposed , and therefore their ignorance is their sin : but it followeth not that it is their Heresie . But if it be , then Hereticks constitute your Church ; and then your Church is a thing unknown ; because the Hereticks cannot be known , the sufficiency of each mans revelation being much unknown to others . R. B. Qu. 3. What mean you by a sufficient proposal ? Mr. J. Answ. I mean such a proposal as is sufficient in humanis , to oblige one to take notice , that a King , or chief Magistrate , have enacted such , or such Laws , &c. that is , a publick Testimony , that such things are revealed by the infallible authority of those who are the highest Tribunal of Gods Church ; or by notorius and universal Tradition . R. B. Reply . Qu. 3. Reply 〈…〉 there lieth not so much at the stake as a mans salvation : and man is not so able as God to make a truly sufficient revelation of his will to all : and therefore the proportion holds not . 2. But if it did , either you think the sufficiency varieth according to the variety of advantages , opportunities , and capacities of the persons , or else that it consisteth only in the act of common publication , and so is the same to all the subjects . If the first be your sense ( as I suppose it is , ) then still you are uncertain who are Hereticks , as being uncertain of mens various capacities , and so of the sufficiency in question . Unless you will conclude ( with me ) that thus you make all Hereticks , as aforesaid ; because all men living are culpably ignorant of some truths , which they had a revelation of that was thus far sufficient . If the second be your sense , then the same unhappy consequence will follow ( that all are Hereticks ; ) and moreover , that some of obscure education are unavoidably Hereticks , because they had no opportunity to know those things , which as to the Majority , are of publick testimony or universal Tradition . Is not the Bible , a publick Testimony and record , and being universally received , is an universal Tradition ? And yet abundance of truths in the holy Bible are unknown , ( and therefore not actually believed ) by millions that are in your Church , and are not taken by your selves for Hereticks . Your befriending ignorance would else make very many Hereticks . Mr. J. Pope . By Pope , I mean St. Peter , or any of his lawful Successors in the See of Rome , having authority by the Institution of Christ , to govern all particular Christian Churches , next under Christ. R. B. Of the Pope . Qu. 1. I am never the nearer knowing the Pope by this , till I know , how Peters Successors may be known to me . What personal qualification is necessary ad esse ? Mr. J. Answ. Such as is necessary ad esse for other Bishops ; which I suppose you know . R. B. Reply . Of the Pope . Qu. 1. Reply . If so , then all those were no Popes that were Hereticks , or denied essential points of faith ( as Iohan. 23. ) and so were no Christians ; and all those that wanted the necessary abilities to the essentials of their work . And so your Church hath oft been headless , and your succession interrupted , Councils having censured many Popes to be thus unqualified : And the dispositio materiae being of it self necessary to the reception of the form , it must needs follow , that such were no Popes , even before the Councils charged them with incapacity or Heresie : because they had it , before they were accused of it . And Simony then made many uncapable . R. B. Qu. 2. When and how must the institution of Christ be found ? Mr. J. Answ. In the revealed Word of God , written or unwritten . R. B. Reply . Qu. 2. Reply 1. You never gave the world assurance , how they may truly know the measure of your unwritten Word , nor where to find it , so as to know what it is . 2. Till you prove Christs Institution ( which you have never done , ) you free us from believing in the Pope . R. B. Qu. 3. Will any ones election prove one to be Pope ? or who must elect him ad esse ? Mr. J. Answ. Such as by approved custome , are esteemed , by those to whom it belongs , fit for that charge ; and with whose election the Church is satisfied . R. B. Reply . Qu. 3. Reply . Here you are fain to hide your self instead of answering ; and shew indeed that a Pope ( that 's made an essential part of the Church ; subjection to whom is made of necessity to salvation ) is indeed but a meer name , or a thing unknown ; and so can be certainly believed or acknowledged by none . For either Election of him ( by some body ) is necessary , or not . If not , then you or another man unchosen may be Pope , for ought I know , or any man else . If yea ; then it is either any bodies Election of him that will serve turn , or not . If it will , then you may be Pope , if your Scholars choose you , and then you have had three true Popes at once ; for so many were Elected . But if it will not , then it must be known who hath the Power of Election , before it can be known who is indeed the Pope : But you are forced here by your answer to intimate to us , that the Power of Election cannot be known : and therefore the Pope cannot be known . For , 1. Here are no determinate Electors mentioned ; and therefore it seems none known to you : And no wonder : for if you confine it to the people , or to the Cardinals , or to the Emperours , or to Councils , you cut off all your Popes that were chosen by the other waies . 2. Nor do you determine of any particular discernable note , by which the Electors , and power of election may be known to the Church : But all these patches make up your description . 1. It must be those that are esteemed fit for the charge . 2. And that by those to whom it belongs . 3. And that by custome . 4. And that approved . 5. And the Church must be satisfied with the election . O miserable body then that hath been so oft headless , as Rome hath been ! 1. Will esteeming them fit , serve turn though they be unfit ? then it is not the fitness that is necessary , but the estimation , ( true or false . ) 2. But why did you not tell us to whom it is that it belongs to esteem the Choosers fit ? Here you were at a streight . But is not this to say nothing while you pretend to speak ? and to hide what you pretend to open ? 3. And who knows what custome , and of what continuance you mean ? Primitive custom went one way ; and afterward custom went another way ; and later custom hath varied from both ; and hath the power of Election changed so oft ? 4. And who is it that must approve this custom ? and what approbation must there be ? All these are meer hiding , and not resolving of the doubt , and tell us that a Pope is a thing invisible or unknown . 5. And your last assureth us , that your succession was interrupted through many usurpations , yea indeed that you never had a Pope . For the Church was unsatisfied with the election of abundance of your Popes , when Whores , and Simony , and Murder , and power set them up : And most of the Church through the world is unsatisfied with them still to this day . And you have no way to know whether the greater part of the Church is satisfied or not ; for non-resistance is no sign of satisfaction , where men have not opportunity or power to resist . And when one part of Europe was for one Pope , and another for another through so many Schisms , who knows which had the approbation of that which may be called the Church ? R. B. Qu. 4. Is Consecration necessary ? and by whom ad esse ? Mr. J. Answ. It is not absolutely necessary ad esse . R. B. Reply . Qu. 4. Reply . If consecration be not necessary to the Papacy , then it is not necessary that this or that man consecrate him more then another . And then it is not necessary to a Bishop . And then the want of it makes no interruption in succession , in any Church , any more then in yours . R. B. Qu. 5. What 〈◊〉 , or proof is necessary to your Subjects ? Mr. J. Answ. So much as is necessary to oblige them , to accept of other Elected Princes to be their Soveraigns . R. B. Reply . Qu. 5. Reply . When you have answered to the forementioned thirty doubts , we shall know what that general signifieth . Mr. J. Bishops . I mean by Bishop , such a Christian Pastor as hath power , and jurisdiction , to govern the inferior Pastors , Clergy , and people within his Diocesse , and to confer holy orders to such as are subject to him . R. B. Of Bishops . Qu. 1. Do you mean , that he must have this jure divino , or humano ? and if jure divino , whether mediately or immediately ? Mr. J. Answ. The definition abstracts from particulars , and subsists without determining that question . R. B. Reply . Of Bishops . Qu. 1. Repl. 1. You before seem to yeild that the Papacy is but jure humano ; ( and therefore sure of no necessity to salvation : ) For if man can change the power of election , and the foundation be humane , it s like the relation is but humane . And therefore if Bishops must be jure divino , they are more excellent and necessary then the Pope . 2. How gross a subterfuge is this ? either the Bishop in question is a divine creature or a humane : If a divine ; as you may manifest it , or express it at least , so you ought ; it being no indifferent thing to turn a divine office and Church into an humane : If he be not Divine , he is not of necessity to a divine Church , nor to salvation . And yet thus your R. Smith Bishop of Calcedon ( ubi supra ) confesseth it to be no point of your faith , that the Pope is St. Peters successor jure divino . And if you leave it indifferent to be believed , or not , that both your Pope and Bishops are jure divino , you confess you are but a humane policy or society , and therefore that no man need to fear the loss of his salvation by renouncing you . R. B. Qu. 2. How shall we know who hath this power ? what Election , or Consecration is necessary thereto ? If I know not , who hath it , I am never the better . Mr. J. Answ. As you know , who hath Temporal Power , by an universal , or most common consent of the people : The Election is different according to different times , places , and other circumstances . Episcopal Consecration is not absolutely necessary . R. B. Reply . Qu. 2. Repl. 1. How now ! Are all the mysteries of your succession and mission resolved into Popular Consent ? Is no one way of Election necessary ? Do you leave that to be varied as a thing indifferent ? And is Episcopal Consecration also unnecessary ? I pray you here again remember then , that none of our Churches are disabled from the plea of a continued succession , for want of Episcopal Consecration , or any way of Election ▪ If our Pastors have had the peoples consent , they have been true Pastors , according to this reckoning : And if they have now their consent , they are true Pastors . But we have more . 2. By this rule we cannot know of one Bishop of an hundred whether he be a Bishop or no ; for we cannot know that he hath the Common consent of the people : yea we know that abundance of your Bishops have no such consent : yea we know that your Pope hath none of the Consent of most of the Christians in the world ; nor ( for ought you or any man knows ) of most in Europe . It s few of your own party that know who is Pope , ( much less are called to Consent , ) till after he is settled in possession . 3. According to this rule , your successions have been frequently interrupted , when against the will of general Councils , and of the far greatest part of Christians , your Popes have kept the seat by force . 4. In temporals your rule is not universally true . What if the people be engaged to one Prince , and afterward break their vow , and consent to a Usurper ? Though in this ease a particular person may be obliged to submission and obedience in judicial administrations ; yet the usurper cannot thereby defend his Right , and justifie his possession , nor the people justifie their adhesion to him , while they lye under an obligation to disclaim him , because of their preengagement to another . Though some part of the truth be found in your assertion . R. B. Qu. 3. Will any Diocess serve ad esse ? what if it be but in particular Assemblies ? Mr. J. Answ. It must be more then a Parish , or then one single Congregation , which hath not different inferiour Pastors , and one , who is their superior . R. B. Reply . Qu. 3. Repl. This is but your naked affirmation . I have proved the contrary from Scriptures , Fathers , and Councils in my disputation of Episcopacy , viz. that a Bishop may be ( and of old ordinarily was ) over the Presbyters only of one Parish , or single Congregation , or a people no more numerous then our Parishes . You must shew us some Scripture , or general Council for the contrary before we can be sure you here speak truth . Was Gregory Thaumaturgus no Bishop , because when he came first to Neocaesarea , he had but seventeen souls in his charge ? The like I may say of many more . Mr. J. Tradition . I understand by Tradition the visible delivery from hand to hand in all ages , of the revealed Word of God , either written , or unwritten . R. B. Of Tradition . Qu. 1. But all the doubt is , by whom this Tradition that 's valid , must be By your Pastors , or people , or both ? By Pope , or Councils , or Bishops disjunct ? By the Major part of the Church , or Bishops ( or Presbyters ) or the Minor ? and by how many ? Mr. J. Answ. By such and so many proportionably ▪ as suffice in a Kingdom to certifie the people , which are the Ancient universally received customs in that Kingdom , which is to be morally considered . R. B. Reply . Of Tradition . Qu. 1. Repl. I consent to this general . But then , 1. How certainly is Tradition against you , when most of the Christian world , yea all except an interessed party , do deny your Soveraignty , and plead Tradition against it ? And how lame is your Tradition , when it s carried on your private affirmations , and is nothing but the unproved sayings of a Sect ! R. B. Qu. 2. What proof , or notice of it , must satisfie me in particular , that it so past ? Mr. J. Answ. Such , as with proportion is a sufficient proof , or notice , of the Laws and customs of temporal Kingdoms . R. B. Reply . Qu. 2. Repl. But is it necessary for every Christian , to be able to weigh the credit of contradicting parties , when one half of the world faith one thing , and the other another thing ? what opportunity have ordinary Christians to compare them , and discern the moral advantages on each side ? As in the case of the Popes Soveraignty , when two or three parts of the Christian world is against it , and the rest for it , can private Christians try which party is the more credible ? Or is it necessary to their salvation ? If so , they are cast upon unavoidable despair . If not , must they all take the words of their present Teachers ? Then most of the world must believe against you , because most of the Teachers are against you : And then it seems mens faith is resolved into the authority of the Parish-Priest or their Confessors . The Laws of a Kingdom may be easier known , then Christian doctrines can be known , ( especially such as are controverted among us ) by meer unwritten Tradition . Kingdoms are of narrower compass then the world : And , though the sense of Laws is oft in question , yet the being of them is seldom matter of controversie ; because men conversing constantly and familiarly with each other , may plainly and fully reveal their minds ; when God that condescendeth not to such a familiarity , hath delivered his mind by inspired persons long ago , with much less sensible advantages , because it is a life of faith that he directeth us to live . Mr. J. General Council . A general Council , I take to be , an assembly of Bishops and other chief Prelates , called , convened , and confirmed , by those who have sufficient Spiritual authority to call , convene , and confirme . R. B. Of a General Council . Qu. 1. Who is it ( ad esse ) that must call , convene , confirm it ? till I know that , I am never the nearer knowing , what a Council is ; and which is one indeed . Mr. J. Answ. Definitions abstract from inferior subdivisions . For your satisfaction I affirm , it belongs to the Bishop of Rome . R. B. Reply . Qu. 1. Repl. 1. If it be necessary to the being or validity of a Council that it be called or confirmed by the Pope , then your definition signifieth nothing , if you abstract from that which is so necessary an ingredient , unless it were presupposed to be understood . 2. If it belong to the Bishop of Rome to call a Council as necessary to its being , then the first great General Council , and others following , were none ; it being certain that they were not called by him . And as certain that he hath never proved any such authority to call them , or confirm them . R. B. Qu 2. Must it not represent all the Catholike Church ? Doth not your Definition agree to a Provincial , or the smallest Council ? Mr. J. Answ. Yes , my Definition speaks specifically of Bishops and chief Prelates , as contradistinct from inferiour Pastors and Clergy , and thereby comprises all the Individuums contained in the Species ; and consequently makes a distinction from National , or particular Councils , where some Bishops only are convened , not all ; that being only some part , and not the whole Species , or specifical Notion applied to Bishops of every age . And yet I said not all Bishops , but Bishops and chief Prelates ; because though all are to be called , yet it is not necessary that all should come . Whence appears what I am to answer to the next two Questions . R. B. Reply . Qu. 2. Repl. 1. Then you have had no General Councils ; much less can have any more : For you have none to represent the greatest part of the Church , unless by a mock representation . 2. If all must be called , your Councils have not been General , that call'd not a great part of the Church . 3. If most are necessarily detained ( as by distance , the prohibition of Princes , &c. ) the call made it not their duty to be there , and so makes it not a General Council ; which is so called from the generality of the meeting and representation , and not of the invitation : no more then a Call would make it a true Council if none came . R. B. Qu. 3. How many Bishops , and from what parts must ( ad esse ) make such a Council ? Mr. J. Answ. The number is morally to be considered , more or fewer according to the difficulties of times , distances of place , and other circumstances ; as is also the parts , from whence they are to come . R. B. Reply . Qu. 3. Repl. This is a put-off for want of an Answer . Is it a Council if difficulties keep away all ? If not , it can be no General Council , when difficulties keep away the most . Much less when such a petty confederacy as met at Trent , shall pretend to represent the Christian world . You thus leave us uncertain when a Council is General , and when not . How can the people tell , when you cannot tell your self , when the Bishops are so many as make a Council General ! R. B. Qu. 4. May none but Bishops and chief Prelates be members , as you intimate ? Mr. J. Answ. No others ; unless such inferiours as are sent to supply the places , and as Deputies of those Bishops or Prelates , are such members of the Council , as have Decisive votes in framing Decrees and Definitions . R. B. Reply . Qu. 4. Repl. This is but your private opinion . No Council hath defined it , unless they are contradictory . For I suppose you know that Basil and many Councils before it had Presbyters in them . Mr. J. Schism . I understand by Schism , a willfull separation , or division of ones self from the whole visible Church of Christ. R. B. Of Schism . Qu. 1. Is it no Schism to separate from a particular Church , unless from the whole ? Mr. J. Answ. No ; it is no Schism , as Schism is taken in the Holy Fathers , for that great and capital crime , so severely censured by them ; in which sense only I take it here . R. B. Reply . Of Schism . Qu. 1. Repl. Though I take Schism more comprehensively , and I think , aptly my self , yet hence I observe your justification of the Protestants from the charge of Schism ; seeing they separate not from the Catholike or whole Church : For they separate not from the Armenian , Ethiopian , Greek , &c. nor from you as Christians , but as scandalous offenders , whom we are commanded to avoid . We separate not from any , but as they separate from Christ. R. B. Qu. 2. Or is it no Schism , unless willfull ? Mr. J. Answ. No ; it is not Schism , unless the separation be willfull on his part who makes it . R. B. Reply . Qu. 2. Repl. Again you further justifie us from Schism . If it be willfull , it must be against knowledge . But we are so far from separating willfully or knowingly from the whole Church , that we abhor the thought of such a thing , as impious and damnable . R. B. Qu. 3. Is it none , if you make a Division in the Church , and not from the Church ? Mr. J. Answ. Not , as we here understand Schism , and as the Fathers treat it . For the Church of Christ being perfectly one , cannot admit of any proper Schism within it self : for that would divide it into two ; which it cannot be . R. B. Reply . Qu. 3. Repl. Though I am sure Paul calls it Schism , when men make divisions in the Church , though not from it ; not making it two Churches , but dislocating some members , and abating charity , and causing contentions where there should be peace ; yet I accept your continued justification of us , who if we should be tempted to be dividers in the Church , should yet hate to be dividers from it ; as believing that he that is separated from the whole body , is also separated from the Head. Mr. J. Sir , The want of a Scribe hath forced me to fail a little in point of time : but I hope you will excuse him , who desires to serve you , W. J. Iune 22. 1660. R. B. Sir , Vrgent unavoidable business constrained me to delay my return to your solutions , or explications of your definitions , till this June 29. 1660. When you desire me to answer any such Questions , or explain any doubtful passages of mine , I shall willingly do it . In the mean time you may see , while your terms are still unexplained , and your Explications or Definitions so insignificant , how unfit we are to proceed any further in dispute , till we better understand each other as to our terms and subject : which when you have done your part to , I shall gladly , if God enable me , go on with you , till we come ( if it may be ) to our desired issue . But still I crave your performance of the double task you are engaged in . Richard Baxter . Appendix . THe most that I here said against the successive Visibility of our Church , is reduced by them to the point of Ordination . They say , We can have no Church without Pastors : no Pastors without Ordination ; and no Ordination but from the Church of Rome : therefore when we broak off from the Church of Rome , we interrupted our succession , which cannot be repaired but by a return to them . This is the sum of most of their discourses , in what shape soever they appear . To which I answer . 1. As [ a Church ] is taken for a Community of Christians , which are really members of the Church universal , so it may ad esse be without Pastors . But the Catholike Church can never be without them : nor yet , any true Political , organized , particular Church . 2. It is contrary to the Papists own opinion that Ordination of their particular Pastors , is necessary to the being of a true particular Church . Bellarmine granteth ( Lib. 3. de Eccles. c. 10. ) that it is indeed to us uncertain that our Pastors have potestatem ordinis & jurisdictionis ; and that we have but a moral certainty that they are true Bishops : though we may know that they hold Christs place , and that we owe them obedience ; and that to know that they are Our Pastors , non requiritur nec fides , nec Character Ordinis , nec legitima electio , sed solum ut habeantur pro talibus ab Ecclesia . [ i. e. It is not requisite , that they have faith , or the Character of Order , or lawful election ; but only that they be taken for such by the Church . ] And if it be enough that their Church repute their Pastors to be elected , ordained , and believers , though they are not so indeed ; then can no more be necessary to ours . We repute ours as confidently to be lawfully elected and ordained as they do theirs . 3. It is contrary to the Papists own opinion , that any Consecration ( much less Canonical ) is necessary to the being of their Vniversal Head. I need not cite their Authors for this ; as long as you have 1. The History of their Practices : And 2. The confession of this learned man that I dispute with , in the explication of the term [ Pope ] in these his last Papers . And that which is not necessary to their Pope , cannot by them be made necessary to our Bishops . 4. Nothing in Church History more certain , then that the Church of Rome hath had no continued succession of a truely elected , or ordained Pope according to their own Canons . 1. If Infidelity or Heresie judged by a Council ( in the case of Honorius , Ioh. 23. Eugenius , &c. ) will not prove a nullity and intercision . 2. If Simony , Murder , Adultery , &c. will not prove it . 3. If about fourty years Schisme at once will not prove it : none knowing who was the true Pope , but by the prevalency of his secular power ; and their writers confessing that it is known to none but God. 4. If intrusion without any just election will not prove it ; Then there is no danger to those Churches that are lyable to no such accusations . But if any or all of these will prove it , the Roman intercision is beyond dispute , as I shall further manifest on any just call , if it be denyed . 5. The standing Law and Institution of Christ , is it that gives the Power ( by imposing the duty ) of Ministration : and Ordination only determineth of the person that shall receive it ( together with election , ) and solemnizeth it by Investiture : as Coronation to a King , that is a King before . I have already proved that an uninterrupted succession of Regular Ordination is no more necessary to the being of a Church , then uninterrupted succession of Regular Coronation is to the being of a King or Kingdom : which I am ready to make good . 6. This whole case of Ordination I have already spoken to ( so carefully and fully according to my measure ) in my second Dispute of Church Government , that I shall suppose that man hath said nothing to me , requiring my reply , on this point , that doth not answer that . And to write the same thing here over again , cannot fairly be expected . 7. Voetius de desperata causa Papatus , hath copiously done the same against Iansenius , which they should answer satisfactorily before they call for more . 8. The Nullity which they suppose to make the Intercision , is either the Ordination we had from the Papist Bishops before our Reformation , or the Ordination that we received since . If the former be a nullity , then all the Papists Ordinations are null ; and so they nullifie their Church and Ministry . That the latter is no nullity , we are ready to make good against any of them all . Object . But if you own your Ordination as from the Church of Rome , you own their Church . Answ. We consider them , 1. As Christian Pastors . 2. As Popish Pastors ; As Christian Pastors in the Catholike Church , their Ordination is no more a nullity than their Baptizing , ( which we count valid . ) But as Popish , they have no authority for either . Object . But they gave both Baptism and Ordination as Papists , and it must be judged of by the intention of the giver , and receiver . Answ. It is the Baptism and Ordination of Christs Institution , as such , which was pretended to be given and received : Could we prove that they Administred any other or otherwise , they say they would disown it : As such therefore we must take it , till we can prove that they destroy the very essence of it . If it be given and taken secondarily as Popish the scab of their corruption polluteth it , but not nullifieth it . So they profess themselves first Ministers of Christ , and but subordinately ( as they think ) of the Pope : so much therefore as belongs to them in their first and lawful relation may be valid ; though so much as respecteth their usurped relation be sinful . Had I been baptized or ordained by one of their Priests , I would disown all the corruptions of them , but not the baptism and ordination it self . 9. There is no necessity to the being or well-being of a particular Church , that it hath continued from the Apostles daies , or that its particular Ministry have had no intercision . If Germany were converted but lately to the Christian Faith , it may be nevertheless a true part of the Catholike Church . If Ierusalem had sometime a Church , and sometime none , it may have now a true Church nevertheless . 10. If our Ordination had failed by an intercision , it might as well be repaired from other Churches ( that have had a continued succession ) as from Rome . And much better ; because without participation of their peculiar corruptions . Or if any Bishops that were of the Papal faction should repent of their Poperie , and not of their Ordination , they might Ordain us as Bishops , and repair our breach . And indeed that was the way of our continued Ordination . Many that repented that they were Popish Prelates , continued the office of Christian Bishops , and by such our Ancestors were Ordained . As Christianity and Episcopacy were before Popery , and so are they still separable from it , and may continue when it is renounced . Besides what I have more fully said in the foresaid dispute of Ordination , I see no need of adding any more , against this Objection , about successive Ordination and Ministerial Power . As to their other Objection ( which they make such a stir with , and take no notice of the Answer which we have so often given ) viz. [ When every Sect pretend that they have the true Church and Ministry , who shall judge ? ] I again Answer , There is a Iudicium privatum , and publicum : A private judgement of discerning belongs to every man : The publick judgement is either Civil or Ecclesiastical . The Civil judgement is [ who shall be thus or thus esteemed of , in order to Civil encouragement or discouragement ] ( as by corporal punishments , or rewards : ) This judgement belongeth only to the Civil Magistrate . The Ecclesiastical judgement , is in order to Ecclesiastical Communion or Excommunication . And so it belongs to those with whom the person is in Communion , in their several capacities . The members of a particular Church , are to be judged Authoritatively by the Pastors of that Church , ( and by the people , by a Private judgement of Discerning . ) Pastors should associate for Communion of Churches : and so in order to that Communion of Association , it belongs to the several Associations to judge of the Members of the Society : which yet is not by a publike Governing judgement : For in Councils or Associations , the Major Vote are not properly the Governors of the lesser part : But those that are out of capacity of Communion , have nothing to do to judge of the Aptitude of Pastors or Churches in order to Communion or non-Communion . And for the Pope , he hath nothing to do with us at such a distance , whose persons and cases are wholly unknown to him ; he being neither our Governour nor our Associate . But if we and our case were known to him , he may judge of us so far as we may judge of him . And other judgement ( what ever men may say to deceive ) there is none to decide our controversies , but the final judgement of the Vniversal Iudge , who is at the door . A LETTER Written to Thomas Smith A Papist , Concerning the Church of Rome . LONDON , Printed , 1660. Reverend Sir , THe noted sanctity , admirable integrity , and extraordinary charity so eminently appearing in your pious actions , ( and as I have some cause to think , the indelible characters of your sacred function ) hath animated me to make choice of your self rather then any of your coat to this present address : hoping your candour and tenderness will bear with what may be ( by others less sensible of the value of immortal souls slighted ) interpreted according to the candid and true sense of your supplicant by you . It hath pleased the great and terrible Iudge of heaven and earth to put me upon some thoughts more seriously then ordinary of my eternal estate , and to be somewhat doubtful ( in the midst of external perturbations ) of those internal grounds which I have formerly relyed upon ; And truely Sir with all cordialness , my desire is clearly to know the mind of my God , which were I truely satisfied in , I should soon wave all other interests to entertain : and assuring my self according to what I have seen and read , the Church of Rome , to which I have long cleaved and adhered , to be the pillar and ground of truth , and that Catholike Church which the ancient Creed testifies , we are to believe in : My desire is to be as soon satisfied as may be of your thoughts , whether it ever were a true Church , which I suppose you will not deny , when you consider the first verse of the Epistle to the Romans ; and if so , when it made its defection ? The reason of my urging this is , because I think all other questions to be but going about the bush , and the true Church being proved , all arguments else easily are answered . I have heard Protestants aver the ancient maxime , viz. Extra Ecclesiam non est salus . Therefore I suppose it the only thing pertinent to my purpose , and necessary to salvation to enquire after . My occasions will suddenly draw me from these parts , unless I hear from you speedily : and doubt not Sir , but I am one who freely will resign my self to hear truth impartially . Therefore I beseech you to send something to me by way of satisfaction the next Saturday , after which you shall be more particularly sensible who the person is that applies himself to you , and in the interim subscribes himself , Sir , A thirsty troubled soul , and yours to his power , Tho. Smith . Feb. 11. 1656. Direct your Letter to me if you please to Mr. John Smiths house next door to the sign of the Crown in the broad street , Worcester . Good Sir , be private for the present ; otherwise it may be prejudicial to some temporal affairs agitating at this time . Sir , THat you can have such charitable thoughts of one that is not of the Roman subjection , and of my function , being not received from the Pope , is so extraordinary , yea and contrary to the judgement of your writers , that I must needs entertain it with the more gratitude , and some admiration . And that you are so impartially willing to entertain the truth , ( as you profess ) though it be no more then the truth deserves of you , and your own wellfare doth require ; yet is the more aimiable in you , by how much the more rare in those of your Profession , so far as my acquaintance can inform me : for most of them that I have met with , understand not well their own Religion , nor think themselves much concerned to understand it , but refer me to others for a Reason of their hope . For my part , I do the more gladly entertain the occasion of this entercourse with you ( though unknown , ) that I may learn what I know not , and may be true to my own conscience in the use of all means that may conduce to my better information . And therefore I shall plainly answer your Questions according to the measure of my understanding ; most solemnly professing to you , that I will say nothing which comes not from my heart in plain simplicity , and that I will with exceeding gladness and a thousand thanks come over to your way , if I can finde by any thing that you shall make known to me , that it is the mind of God that I should so do . And therefore I am desirous , that if what I write to you shall seem unsound , you would not only afford me your own advice for the correction of it , but also the advice of the most learned of your mind , to whom you shall your self think meet to communicate it . But on these conditions . 1. That it be a person of a tender conscience , that dare speak nothing but what he verily believes . 2. That he will argue closly , and not fly abroad or dilate Rhetorically . And for any divulging of it to your danger or hurt , you need not fear it : For these two grounds of my following answers ; I shall here promise , 1. That I am so far from persecuting bloody desires against those of your way , that their own bloody principles and practices where they have power ( in Italy , Spain , &c. ) hath done much to confirm me , that the cause is not of God that must be so upheld and carried on . 2. And I am so far from cruel uncharitable censures of any that unfeignedly love the Lord Jesus and his truth , that it is the greatest motive to me of all other to dislike your Profession , because it is so notoriously against Christian charity , restraining the Catholike Church to your selves , and outing and condemning the far greatest part of Christians in the world , and that because they believe not in the Pope , though they believe in God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , and all that the Primitive Church believed . I am so Catholike , that ( according to my present judgement ) I cannot be of your Church , because it is so little Catholike . I am of the one universal Church , which containeth all the true Christians in the world : And you are of a Party which hath separated it self from most of the Christians in the world . I am of that one body that is centred in Christ the Head ; you are of a piece of this body , that hath centred in a man , and oft a confessed heretical wicked man , whom you take while he lives to be the infallible Judge and foundation of all your faith and hope ; and when he is dead , perhaps pronounce him to be in hell ( as Bellarmine did Pope Sixtus , and others commonly . ) I know , as every Sect hath a kind of unity among themselves , however divided from all the rest of the Church , so also hath yours : but nothing will satisfie me but a Catholike Unity , Church and Faith. So much being premised , I answer your Questions . Quest. 1. Whether the Church of Rome was a true Church in the Apostles dayes ? Answ. The word [ Church ] signifies more things then one . 1. Sometime it is used to signifie the whole mystical body of Christ , containing all and only those that are justified , whom Bellarmine calleth living members . And in this sense the Church of Rome in the Apostles dayes was not the Church , but the justified members were part of the Church . 2. Sometime it is used to signifie all that profess true Christianity in the world : And thus the Church of Rome was not the Church , but part of it . 3. It is oft used by your writers to signifie one Church , that by Prerogative is the Head or Mistris of all Christians in the world , to which they must all be subject , and from which they must receive their name , as the Kingdom of Mexico , of Tripolis , of Fez , &c. are so called from the chief Cities of the same name , and from which they receive their Faith and Laws , as the body hath life and motion from the head or heart . In this sense the Church of Rome was no Church in the Apostles dayes . 4. Sometime it is used to signifie one particular Church , associated for personal Communion in Worship . And thus the Church of Rome was a true Church in the Apostles dayes . 5. Sometime it is used to signifie a Collection or Conjunction of many particular Churches ( though not all ) under the Bishop of one Church , as their Patriarch or Metropolitan . And thus the Church of Rome was no Church in the Apostles dayes , but about two hundred years after Christ it was . It is only the Church in the third of these senses , that is in controversie between the Roman and Reformed Churches . Now to your next Question . Quest. 2. When was it that the Church of Rome ceased to be a true Church ? Answ. In the first , second , and third sences it never ceased to be a true Church : for it never was one . In the first and second sence it never was one either in title or claim , ( I hope . ) In the third , it was never one in Title , nor yet in claim for many hundred years after Christ : but now it is . Therefore the Question between us should not be , when it ceased , but when it begun to be such a Capital Ruling Church , Essential to the whole ? In the fifth sence it never ceased otherwise then as it is swallowed up in a higher Title . It begun to be a Patriarchal Church , about two or three hundred years after Christ : and it ceased to be meerly Patriarchal when it arrogated the Title of Vniversal or Mistris of all . In the fourth sence , the Question is not so easie , and I shall thus answer it . 1. By speaking to the use of the Question . 2. By a direct answer to it . 1. It is of small concernment to my salvation or yours , to know whether the Church of Rome be a true particular Church or not : no more then to know whether the Church of Thessalonica , or Ephesus , or Antioch , be now a true Church . In charity to them I am bound to regard it , as I am bound to regard the life of my neighbour : But what doth it concern my own life , to know whether the Mayor and Aldermen of Worcester or Glocester be dead or alive ? So what doth it concern my Salvation to know whether the Church of Rome be now a true particular Church ? If I lived at the Antipodes or in Aethiopia , and had never heard that there is such a place as Rome in the world ( as many a thousand Christians doubtless never heard of it ) this would not hinder my salvation , as long as I believed in the blessed Trinity , and were sanctified by the Spirit of Grace . So that , as I am none of their Judge , so I know not that it much concerneth me , to know whether they be a true particular Church , save for charity or communion . 2. Yet I answer it more directly . 1. If they do not by their errors so far overthrow the Christian faith which they profess , as that it cannot practically be believed by them , then are they a true particular Church , or part of the universal Church . 2. And I am apt to hope at least of most that they do not so hold their errors , but that they retain with them so much of the essentials of Religion as may denominate them a true professing Church . More plainly : Rome is considered first as Christian , secondly as Papal : As Christian , it is a true Church : As Papal , it is no true Church : For Popery is not the Church according to Christs Institution , but a dangerous corruption in the Church . As a Leprosie is not the man , but the disease of the man. Yet he that is a Leper may be a m●● . And he that is a Papist may be a Christian : But 1. Not as he is a Papist . 2. And he is but a leprous or diseased Christian. So much to your Questions . By this much you may see that it no way concerneth me to prove when Rome ceased to be a true Church . For if you mean such a Church as Corinth , Philippi , Ephesus , &c. was , that is , but a part of the Catholike Church , so I stick not much , saving in point of Charity , whether it be true or false . But if you mean as your party doth , a Mistris Church to Rule the whole , and denominate the Catholike Church [ Roman , ] so I say , its Vsurpation is not ceased ( that 's the misery ) and its just title never did begin : and its claim was not of many hundred years after Christ : so that your Question requireth no further Answer . But what if you had put the Question , At what time it was that your Church began to claim this universal Dominion ? I should give you these two answers . 1. When I understand that it is of any great moment to the decision of our controversie , I shall tell you my opinion of the man that first laid the claim , and the year when . 2. But it is sufficient for me to prove , that from the beginning it was not so . Little did the Bishops of Rome before Constantines dayes , dream of governing all the Christians in the world . But when the Emperours became Christians , their great favour and large endowments of the Church , and the greatness and advantage of the Imperial City did give opportunity to the Bishop of Rome ( as having both riches , and the Emperours and Commanders ears ) to do so many and great favours for most other Churches , in preserving and vindicating them , that it was very easie for the Bishop hereby to become the chief Patriarch ( which he was more beholden to the Emperour for , then to any Title that he had from Christ or Peter . ) And then the quarrel with Iohn of Constantinople occasioned the thoughts of an universal Headship ; which Gregory did disclaim and abominate , but Boniface after him , by the grant of a murdering trayterous Emperour , did obtain : But so as the See swelled before into a preparatory magnitude . And if we could not tell you the time within two hundred years and more , it were no great matter , as long as we can prove that it was not so before . For who knows not that even some Kings in Europe have come from being limited Monarchs , to be absolute , and that by such degrees , that none can tell the certain time . Nay I may give you a stranger instance . The Parliaments of England have part in the legislative power : And yet I do not think that any Lawyer in England is able to prove the just time , yea or the age , ( or within many ages ) when they first obtained it : which yet in so narrow a spot of ground may be easilier done , then the time of the Popes usurpation over all the world . For it could not be all at once : for one Country yeilded to his ( late ) claim in one age , and another in another age , and many a bloody battle was fought before he could bring the Germane Emperours and Christian Princes to submit to him fully . 3. But let me tell you one thing more ; Though as to an arrogant claim , the Pope is Head and Governour of all the Catholike Church , and Rome their Mistris , ( as the Pope makes Patriarchs of Antioch , Alexandria , and Hierusalem , that never come near the place or people , ) yet as to any possession or acknowledgement on the Churches part , he was never universal Head , nor Rome the Mistris to this day . For the greater half of the Christians did never subject themselves to him at all , nor come under his power . So that the Pope even now in his greatest height , is only the head of the universal Church by his own claim , and naming himself so , without any Title given by God , or acknowledged by men , and without having ever been possessed of what he claims . The King of France doth scarce believe that the King of England was King of France , for all that he put it into his title : nor do the Swedes take the Pole for their King , because he so calls himself . I am sure if the Turkish Emperour call himself the Emperour of the world , that doth not prove that he is so . Rainerius the Popes Inquisitor ( in catal . post . lib. cont . Waldens . ) saith plainly , That the Churches that were planted by the Apostles themselves ( such as the Abassines , 〈◊〉 ) are not subject to the Pope . Once he 〈◊〉 the Government of no Church in the world , but Rome it self : After that he grew to have the government of the Patriarchate of the West : since that he hath got some more , and claimed all ; but never got neer half the Churches into his hands to this day . Do I need then to say any more to disprove his universal Headship , and that Rome is not the Catholike Ruling Church ? But having gone thus far in opening my thoughts to you , I shall forbear the adjoyning the proof of my Assertions , till I hear again from you . If I understand it , The Question between you and me to be debated , must be this , [ Whether the Roman Church was in the Apostles dayes , the Mistris or Ruling Church , which all other Churches were bound to obey , and from it were to be called the Roman Catholike Church ? ] This I deny : and you must maintain , or else you must be no Papist . The motion that I make is , that by the next you will send me your Arguments to prove it ( for it belongs to you to prove it , if you affirm it . ) To which I will return you ( if they change not my judgement ) both my Answers and my Arguments for the Negative . And if you do indeed make good but this one Assertion , I do 〈◊〉 promise you , that I will joyfully and resolvedly turn Papist : and if you cannot make it good , I may expect that you should no longer adhere to Rome as the Ruling or Catholike Church , and the Pillar and Ground of Truth ; though charity should allow it to be [ a Catholike Church ] that is a member of the Catholike Church , which is indeed the Pillar and Ground of Truth , wherein Rome may have a part as it is part of the Church : But I would it were not a most dangerously diseased part . I crave your reply with what speed you can , and remain , An unfeigned lover of Truth and the friends of Truth . Rich. Baxter . Feb. 12. 1656 / 7. The two following Letters , with the Narrative , are annexed only to shew the effect of the former . Sir , THough the business in agitation betwixt your self and me , be the one thing necessary , and so to be preferred to all obligations , and businesses of what concernment soever ; yet a resolution formerly taken up , hath diverted me somewhat from the present earnest prosecution thereof as it deserves . Temporal credit , though it should give way to things of eternal moment , yet it often sways the minds even of good men to neglect very important opportunities ; which though I cannot excuse my self of , yet I desire it may be candidly interpreted , and that this may be accepted as a pledge to an answer of what you have inserted . And I desire your next may be directed to me to London , to one Mr. T. S. who is a kinsman of mine , and no small admirer of your self . My thanks in the interim I return for the pains you have taken , which I hope through the mercy of God will not prove successeless for the future one way or other : the truth is , I have not divulged my self , or intentions as yet to any of my own way , which I know will be very troublesome ; and I know I shall be beset with enemies from the ignorant , that way affected , as I doubt not of help from the learned . Yet as I told you in my former , without any carnal interest respecting , or outward troubles regarding , or inbred enemies combating , I resolve by the grace and assistance of God to be guided by truth impartially where I shall find it lye clearest : and shalt make it my work to implore the throne of mercy , that my understanding may be so enlightned , as to discern truth from heresie . I desire Sir , if it may be no prejudice to your more earnest occasions , that I may have two or three lines from you by way of advice to meet me at London at the place aforesaid , and assure your self , however God shall direct the successe , I shall rest , Sir , A thirsty desirer of truth , and yours unfeignedly , Tho. Smith . Feb. 16. 1656. If what you write to me be first sent to Mr. John Smiths of Worcester as before , it will be safely sent to me . Good Sir , think not I slight a business of so eternal consequence by my neglect for the present ; for none shall for the future be found more earnest to find out the mind of God , and he assisting , I hope , as chearfully to close therewith . Sir , THe speed of your former applications to me by way of answer , incites me to the confirmation of those thoughts of your worth which were at my first addresses to you harboured in my brest ; but the substance of your discourse is a stronger motive . Although peradventure it may seem somewhat wonderful , that I should so soon be brought over to the serious apprehensions of the weight of what you have written to me ; yet when you consult the divine providence , and the Almighty direction which prompted me to the choise of your self above others , upon grounds not altogether insufficiently established , which will be further made good when I shall have the happiness of a personal entercourse of communion with you , it will be certainly concluded upon by your self and whosoever it shall be communicated to , that the truth , which I have already seriously pondered , was the full aim of my intentions : which truth I shall impartially and joyfully entertain wheresoever I find it , without any thoughts at all of temporal or external discouragements , of which I have already contested with some , and expect ( the Lord arm me against them ) far greater . It is no small thing that I shall be lookt upon as an Apostate , and so worthy of excommunication utterly ; but I conclude according to St. Augustine ( I guess ) that it is no shame to turn to the better , and withal I add ( although I could insert some small exceptions ) I am to the main satisfied , but yet in some doubtful suspence , wherein I expect full satisfaction by your book , which I received intimation from you is in the Press , and quickly to be published . If I might receive two or three lines from you in the interim , by way of establishment , it would be very gratefully accepted , in relation to the comfortable taking off those obstacles which I am certain to meet with in my change of judgement . I am very sorry that a person whom I know to be so tender of eternal souls in general , should be so continually taken off your important business daily by particulars . But being likewise sensible that you value a soul according to the worth of the same ; I am encouraged to think , yea I verily believe , these rude things proceeding from a soul that is to rise or fall according to what is now determining between us , it will not be unacceptably received from , Sir , The admirer of your worth , Tho. Smith . March 24. 1656 / 7. A Narrative of the case of T. S. by his friend . Reverend Sir , Mr. Thomas Smith late of Martins Ludgate London was brought up in the Protestant Religion , and for some years accounted an affectionate professor thereof , by those who were acquainted with his diligence and pains in writing out at large the notes he took of ( Mr. Calamies and others ) pious Sermons : but afterwards ( not living up to the knowledge he had ) he grew more remiss in his practice , and in his company ; and became a great affliction to his Father in his life-time by reason thereof , but a greater to his Mother after his Fathers death : which I suppose Mr. Iacomb , Mr. Fauller and others of her acquaintance cannot forget . But when she understood the company he most frequented were Papists , who did at length take the boldness to resort to her house , she was very much perplexed , fearing that they had prevailed with her son to turn Papist , which she soon found , as she told me , to be so indeed . I was not willing to believe her report , but desired to satisfie my self by discoursing with himself , hoping that I should not have found his judgement determined that way , as I did to my great trouble find it to be , especially in his justification of the Jurisdiction and Authority of the Pope , and other tenets of the Church of Rome . By this time he had wasted his Patrimony , and had run himself into debt so far , that he durst not walk up and down the streets as he had done : he went a Voyage to the Barbadoes , but returned thence in a worse condition then he went , yet continued still in the opinion he had received , notwithstanding the great offence and trouble it was to those from whom he expected relief and maintenance , whose hearts and hands were in that particular somewhat shut up against him , in so much that he was reduced to manifold extremities here . Afterwards , hopeless of any livelyhood here , he went over to Ireland where he had a kinsman ; but meeting with disappointment there of what he expected , he returned again into England , and steered his course to Worcester , where he had another kinsman lived ; during this Voyage I exchanged several letters with him , being desirous to make him sensible of the hand of God eminently out against him , hedging up his way with thorns everywhere , which I desired might be in order to his return to God , looking upon his condition to be manifestly desperate for ever , if he should refuse to return , and harden his heart against him . At Worcester he fell sick , which through Gods blessing brought him to a more serious consideration of his everlasting state which he apprehended to approach near . And it wrought some kind of doubt in him , touching the truth of some of the chief of those things which he had entertained as true about the Church of Rome , as he informed me by his letter ; whereunto for his conviction and better satisfaction , I did advise him to apply himself unto Mr. Baxter of Kederminster ( who I told him I did believe was a great lover of souls ) which he by letter did as he told me , and that Mr. Baxter did return him an answer thereunto in writing , with liberty to shew it to any the most learned of his way ; which when he came to London he shewed me , acknowledging himself much convinced by it : and the more taken , for that so large and full an answer with that liberty should be dispatch't to him with so much expedition , which as I remember he said he had the next day after he sent his . Yet was he confident , as he said , that it would be answered , and as he told me , he had left it with one that had undertaken it ; He spake of its being shewn to Embassadors or an Embassador , and that within fourteen days he should have an answer to it ; but enquiring after it , I could never see any answer , nor could he notwithstanding all his solicitations and provocations used , prevail to have an answer ; which he seemed to be very much offended at ; and at length , as he told me , those with whom he had to do about it , were much offended with him : in so much that he intimated himself to be apprehensive of danger from some of them : yet he seemed resolved to adventure whatsoever might befall him in that respect , rather then he would stifle those convictions , which by Mr. Baxters letter had been begotten in him ; This letter of Mr. Baxters , together with [ The Safe Religion ] a Book which he did refer him to , either then or near that time in the press , which he went for and had of the Stationer upon Mr. Baxters account , ( which I had almost forgot ) gave him such resolution and satisfaction , that he thereupon altered his judgement and practice , and waited upon the Ordinances here in London in our Congregations for some time ; I my self having seen him at the morning exercise in London : what further effects it wrought upon him I know not ; for that he left the City and went over into Flanders as his Mother hath informed me , and is since dead : Sir , Your affectionate friend to serve you , T. S. For Mr. William Johnson . Sir , WHen I was invited to this Disputation with you , I entertained hopes , from your profest desires of close argumentation , that we should speedily bring it to such an issue , as might in some good measure answer our endeavours , in taking off the covering that Sophistry and carnal interest had cast upon the truth . When my necessary employments denyed me the leisure of reading over your second Papers for some weeks ; and when the loss of my Reply by the Carrier , and the difficulty of procuring another Copy , had caused a little longer delay ; you urged so hard for a Reply , as put me in some further hopes that you were resolved to go through with it your self . But after near a twelve months expectation of a Rejoinder , and of the Proof of your own succession from the Apostles , being here at London , I desired you to resolve me , whether I might expect any such Return and Performance from you , or not : And when you would not promise it , I took up the thoughts of publishing what had past between us : But upon further urging you , some moneths after , you renewed my hopes , which caused me to make some stay of my publication , and to desire you to give me your sense of the most used terms ; ( promising you that I shall do the like , when you require it ; which I am ready to perform . ) But yet I hear nothing to this day of your Answer to my Papers , or the Performance of what is incumbent on you for the justification of your Church : And therefore having waited and importuned you in vain so long , and finding by your last , that you cannot or will not so explicate your terms , as to be understood ( without which there is no disputing ; ) and also perceiving , that my abode in London is like to be but little longer ; my discretion and the ends of my writing have commanded me , to forbear no longer the publication of what hath past between us : For , though the work be not copious and elaborate , yet being on a subject , which your party do so much insist upon , I am assured it may be of common use . And I know that the publication is no breach of any promise on my part , nor do I perceive how it can be any way injurious to you ; and therefore I see nothing to prohibite it : And I am not willing to be used as Mr. Gunning and Mr. Pierson were , by the partial unhansome publication of another . If yet I may prevail with you , to justifie your cause , as you are engaged , I must entreat you specially to try your strength for the proof of your own succession : for we are most confident that its a notorious impossibility which you undertake . Our Arguments against it are such as these . 1. That Church which since the time of Christ hath received a new essential part , hath not its being successively from the Apostles . But such is the Church of Rome : Ergo — The Major is undenyable . The Minor is thus proved . A Vice-Christ , or Vice-head , or Governour of the Universal Church is an essential part of the now Church of Rome . But a Vice-Christ , or Vice-head , or Gove●●●● of the Universal Church , is new , or a ●ove●● , ( or hath not been from the time of Christ on earth : ) Ergo , the Church of Rome since the time of Christ , hath received a new essential part . The novelty I have here and elsewhere proved : And Blondel and Molinaeus against Perron have done it more at large . 2. That Church which hath had frequent and long interceisions in its head or essential part , hath not had a continued succession from the Apostles . But such is the Church of Rome : Ergo — The Minor is here proved : and some hints of it are in the Appendix . 3. That Church which hath had many new essential Articles of Religion , hath not had a continued succession from the Apostles : ( For if the essence be new , the Church is new . ) But such is the Church of Rome . Ergo — First it is commonly maintained by you that all Articles are Essential or Fundamental : and you deride the contrary doctrine from the Protestants . Secondly , that you have had many new Articles of Religion ( of faith and points of worship ) is proved by our writers , and your own confessions . See Molinaeus de Novit . Papismi . Prove a succession of all that is de fide determined in your Councils , or but of all in Pope Pius his Creed , and the Council of Trent alone ; or of all that with you is de fide of those two and thirty points which I have named in my Key for Catholikes , p. 143 , 144 , 145. Chap. 25. Detect . 16. and I will yeild you all the cause : or I will profess my belief of every one of those points of which you prove such a succession , as held by the Catholike Church , as you now hold them . Read and answer my Detect . 21. Cap. 33. in my Key for Catholikes . And how far you own Innovations , see what I have proved , ibid. cap. 35. and 36. But these arguings being works of supererogation , I shall trouble you here with no more ; but wait for such proof of all your essentials , as we give you of all ours . In the mean time , I shall endeavour so to defend the Truth , as not to lose or weaken Charity , but approve my self An unfeigned lover of the Truth and you . Richard Baxter . Sep. 1. 1660. FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A27045-e8860 Syll. 2. * * But how far from truth this is , appears from St. Leo , in his Sermons de natali suo , where he saies , Sedes Roma Petri , quicquid non possidet almis , Religione tenet ; and by this , that the Abyssines of Ethiopia were under the Patriarch of Alexandria antiently , which Patriarch was under the Authority of the Romane Bishop , as we shall presently see . * * See Rosse his view of Religions , p. 99. 489 , 492 , &c. Where he saies that they circumcise their children the eighth day , they use Mosaical ceremonies . They mention not the council of Calcedon , because ( saies he ) they are Eutychians and Jacobites , and confesses that their Patriarch is in subjection to the Patriarch of Alexandria , &c. See more of the Chofti , Jacobites , Maronites , &c. p. 493 , 494. where he confesses that many of them are now subject to the Pope , and have renounced their old errors . See Nilus on this subject . (a) (a) Liberatus in Brev. c. 16. (b (b Epist. praeambula . Concil . Chalcedon . (c) (c) Concil . Chalcedon . Act. 1. (d) (d) Concil . Chalcedon . Act. 8. (e) (e) St. Cyprian . Epist. 67. (f) (f) Concil . Sard. cap. 4. cited by St. Athan. Apol. 2. pag. 753. (g) (g) St. Basil. Epist. 74. (h) (h) St. Chrysost. Epist. 2. ad . Innocent . (i) (i) Concil . Ephes. p. 2. Act. 5. (k) (k) St. Athanas . ad Solit. Epist. Julius in lit . ad Arian . ap . Athan . Apolog . 1. pag. 753. Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 4. Athanas ▪ Apol. 2. Zozom . lib. 3. cap. 7. The Appeal of Theodoret from that Council as to his judge , is so undeniable that Chamier is forced to acknowledge it . Tom. 2. l. 13. c. g. p. 498. and the whole Council of Calcedon , acknowledged the right of that Appeal , restoring Theodoret to his Bishoprick , by force of an order given upon that Appeal by Leo Pope to restore him . Concerning Saint Athanasius being judged and righted by Iulius Pope , Chamier . cit . p. 497. acknowledges the matter of fact to be so , but against all antiquity , pretends that judgment to have been unjust . Which , had it been so , yet it shews a true power of judging in the Pope , though then unduly executed ; otherwise Saint Athanasius , would never have made use of it ▪ neither can it be condemned of injustice , unless Saint Athanasius be also condemed as unjust , in consenting to it . Niceph. lib. 13. cap. 34. Chamier . cit . p. 498. sayes , other Bishops restored those who were wrongfully deposed , as well as the Pope Which though it were so , yet never was there any single Bishop save the Pope , who restored any , who were out of their respective Diocess , or Patriarchates , but always collected together in a Synod , by common voice , and that in regard only of their neighbouring Bishops , whereas the Bishop of Rome his sole and single authority , restored Bishops wrongfully deposed all the Church over . (m) (m) Concil . Chalced. Action . 1. (n) (n) Concil . Chalced. Action . 3. * * Which could not be by reason of the Sanctity and truth which was then in it ; for the Church of Milan and many others in France , Africa , and Greece were also then pure and holy , and yet none have this title save the Church of Rome . In the time of Iustinian the Emperour , Agapet Pope , even in Constantinople , against the will both of the Emperour and Empress , deposed Anthymus , and ordained Mennas in his place . Libera● . in Breviario . cap. 21. Marcellinus . Comes in Chronico . Concil . Constantin . sub Menna act . 4. And the same St. Greg. C. 7. Ep. 63. declares that both th● Emperour and Bishop of Constantinople acknowledged that the Church of Constantinople was subject to the See of Rome . And l. 7. Ep. 37. Et alibi pronounces , that in case of falling into offences he knew no Bishop which was not subject to the Bishop of Rome . (o) (o) St. Augustin . Tom 1 Epist. Rom. Pontif. post Epist. 2. ad Celestinum . Epist. Concil . ad . I. con . Pap. Act. 1. & sequ . For the age 600. See St. Gregory Pope , l. 10. ep . 30. where Hereticks and Shismaticks repenting were received then into the Church , upon solemn promise , and publike protestation , that they would never any more separate from , but alwaies remain in the unity of the Catholike Church , and communion in all things with the Bishop of Rome . 
A27069	----	Which is the true church? the whole Christian world, as headed only by Christ ... or, the Pope of Rome and his subjects as such? : in three parts ... / by Richard Baxter ... Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1679 Approx. 710 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 78 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-05 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A27069 Wing B1453 ESTC R1003 12626085 ocm 12626085 64650 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A27069) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64650) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 344:7) Which is the true church? the whole Christian world, as headed only by Christ ... or, the Pope of Rome and his subjects as such? : in three parts ... / by Richard Baxter ... Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. [15], 168 [i.e. 138] p. Printed, and are to be sold by Richard Janeway ..., London : 1679. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Includes bibliographical references. (from t.p.) I. The papists confusion in explaining the terms of the questions, not able to bear the light -- II. A defence of a disputation concerning the continued visibility of the church of which the Protestants are members -- III. A defence of the several additional proofs of the said visibility. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Catholic Church -- Doctrines. Protestantism -- Apologetic works. 2003-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-02 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-03 Rina Kor Sampled and proofread 2003-03 Rina Kor Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion WHICH IS THE True Church ? The whole Christian World , as Headed only BY CHRIST , ( Of which the Reformed are the soundest part ) OR , THE POPE of ROME And his SUBJECTS as such ? IN THREE PARTS . I. The Papists Confusion in explaining the terms of the Questions ; not able to bear the light . II. A Defence of a Disputation concerning the continued Visibility of the Church of which the Protestants are members . III. A Defence of the several Additional proofs of the said Visibility . By RICHARD BAXTER .. Written especially to instruct the younger unexperienced Scholars how to deal with these Deceivers in these dangerous times . LONDON ; Printed , and are to be sold by Richard Ianeway , in Butcher-hall Lane. 1679. The Preface to the Lovers of Truth . ABove eighteen years past I received a Paper ( by the mediation of one Mr. Langhorne ) from one that called himself VVilliam Iohnson , to prove the Papal Church to be the Catholick , because no other had been visible in all Ages . I answered it , and received a Reply , and wrote a Rejoinder . But being not rich enough to pay either an Amanuensis or Transcriber , I never ( to my remembrance ) took a Copy of any Book which I wrote , except this Rejoinder to him , and one other ; and I never ( to my remembrance ) lost any but those two . When I had sent this by the ordinary Carrier , he lost it , but took on him that he never knew how . Whereupon when I lookt for a Reply , I receiv'd an insulting Letter for not answering . But when I sent my Rejoinder the second time , I could never have any Reply thereto . Above a year after , coming up to London at the Kings Restoration , I enquired after the Disputer , and called yet for some Reply , but could get none : and I was there informed , that his name was Terret , and that he usually lived with the Earl of Shrewsbury ( within seven miles of me , when I was told he lived near an hundred miles off ) : But that he was one of the greatest of their Disputers about London , where he spent much of his time , and had lately disputed with Mr. Pet. Gunning , and Mr. Pierson ( now both Bishops ) , and had printed the Dispute without their consent . And lest he should do so by any part of mine , I sent him word , That if he would not prosecute the Dispute , I would publish what was done . Whereupon he offered to do it rather by Conference than by Writing : Which I accepted , and he came to me , and we agreed to begin with the true explication of some terms which were likest to be most used in our Controversie . I offered to give him my sense of any terms of which he would desire it , and desired the like of him , which he granted . He desired none at all of me ; but such terms as I offered to him , he wrote me immediately his explication of ; which because it rather encreased the darkness and uncertainty , I excepted against it , and desired fuller explication . By this time our hour was at an end , and I expected him to prosecute the Dispute , but could never see him more . Whereupon after urgency and expectation , I published what had passed between us . The next year the Countess of Balcarres ( now Countess of Argyle ) a person to whom I had extraordinary obligations , sent for me , being in great affliction for her eldest Daughter turned Papist . Whereupon I offered a Conference with the person that had perswaded her , or any other whom she would chuse : which the Lady accepted , and undertook to bring one speedily to perform it . But at last she said the person was afraid of the danger of the Law. I urged her still , and then she told me , that when he knew who it was that he was to speak with , he professed that he feared no danger from me , and greatly honoured me , being one that knew me ; but refused the Dispute . I provoked her to get some other , though it was the ablest that then attended on the Queen mother ( who then encourag'd her : ) But she would have none but him that did refuse it . Whereupon ( her mother being in danger of death by grief ) I was forced to speak more harshly to her , and ask her , Whether she dealt wisely to follow such as durst not let her hear what was to be said ? I told her , that if he would spend but one hour in giving the reasons why she should turn Papist , and let me spend another hour in giving her my reasons to the contrary , I would leave the issue to her Conscience . After long denial , at last she told me , that the person did consent , on condition that there might be no speaking , but only writing ex tempore , and nothing done but by syllogism , according to the Laws of Disputation . I asked her , Whether that way was most suitable to her understanding and patience ? And whether she would stay till we had done our writings , which might possibly be some years ? And whether she might not as well read what is written already ? But when nothing else would be consented to , I yeilded to such writing , so be it she would but hear our several Reasons one hour or two first . And when that could not be obtained , I consented to meet him , and only to write . But just when the time came , the Lady was stoln away ; and when they followed and overtook her , she told them that she was but going on some business , and would presently return ( her mother professed that before her perversion she scarce ever found her in a Lye or disobedience , and after could scarce believe any thing that she said ) . But she went to a Nunnery in France , and her Mother saw her no more ; but ere long received Letters of the Reasons of her Religion , which at her Mothers desire I answered , but you may suppose that they suffered her not to see the Answer . When she was gone , I understood that it was this same Mr. W. Iohnson , alias Terret , who was the man that had seduced her , and refused the Dispute . But not long after he Printed a Reply to the Book which I had published , and called it , Novelty represt : which when I perused , I saw that a Rejoinder would be of little use , because it must consist for the far greatest part , of the detection of his fallacious words , and of the vindication of a great deal of Church-History ; and the former would rather tire than edisie the Reader , and the later would profit none but those that were already well acquainted with Church-History , or such as would fully search the Authors cited , till they understood by them who it is that citeth them aright : He that will not do this cannot judg of our case , and he that will do it needeth not my help . Wherefore having much better work , and no time to spare , expecting that my change was near , my Conscience forbad me such a frivolous expence of time as a Rejoinder to his Reply would prove . But having since written many Books against Popery , to none of which I can procure yet a word of answer , and hearing that they are obliged not to answer me till I am dead , ( which they may shortly expect ) by the perswasions of some I have attempted to make this Return to this one Reply , which is all that ever they published against me , that I know of . And because true Order requireth first that we understand each others terms , I must begin with that , though it be the last thing in his Book ; in which you will see what a sandy fabrick it is which is adorned by them with the great Epithetes of Apostolical , Ancient , Universal , Infallible , and how little they know , or can make others know what it is of which they do dispute , or what that Church is , to which so many hundred thousand Christians ( called by them Hereticks ) have been sacrificed by sword and flames . In the second Part I defend the Visibility of the Church which the Protestants are members of , against his vain Objections . And in the third Part I defend those Additional arguments by which I proved it . In all which I doubt not but the impartial understanding Reader may see , that their Terrestrial Universal Monarchy , and their condemnation of the greatest part of the Church of Christ , are contrary to Sense , Reason , Tradition , Consent , Antiquity and Scripture ; and that their Kingdom standeth but on three Legs , IGNORANCE and deceit , worldly INTEREST , and the SWORD and violence . And when these ( and especially the sword of Princes ) do cease to uphold it , it will presently die and come to nothing . For though Melchior Canus say , that the Roman Priviledges ( as he calleth them ) have stood , though the greater number of Bishops and Churches , and the Arms of Emperours have been against them , yet was it upheld against all these by no better means than those aforesaid . The greater number of Churches and Bishops ( viz. of East and South ) being against them ; and all the other four Patriarchates renouncing them ( as they do to this day ) they laid the faster hold of the West , and by mastering Italy , flattering and advancing France , promising Kingdoms and Empire to their Adherents , threatning the deposition of others , dividing Germany and all Europe , that many might need the Pope , and few be able to resist him , and by keeping men ignorant that they might be capable of their Government , by these means they overcame the Arms of Emperours , and made them their Subjects , whose Subjects they had been . If there were nothing else to satisfie the Reader against Popery but these following Particulars , it were a shame to humane nature to receive it . 1. The natural incapacity of one man to be a Church-Monarch , any more than to be a Civil Monarch of the whole Earth . 2. That Bellarmine confesseth that the Pope succeedeth not Peter as an Apostle ( but as an Universal Pastor ) : But Peter never had any higher office than to be the first , Apostle , 1 Cor. 12. 28. God hath set in the Church first Apoctles , ( not first a Vice-Christ . ) 3. That they affirm that it is not de fide that the Pope is Peter's Successor . 4. That none of the other Apostles had Successors as in superior seats ; nor did any Patriarch ( much less twelve ) claim power as Successors of any Apostle , save Antioch and Rome , and Antioch as from the same St. Peter , but no Universal Soveraignty . 5. That whoever will turn Papist , must confess that he was an ungodly hypocrite before , and that all professed Christians are so , save the Papists , that know their doctrine . 6. That he must renounce the senses of all sound men , and believe them all deceived by Miracle . The Contents of the first Part. CHAP. 1. Sect. 1. HIs Explication of the terms CATHOLICK CHURCH . 1. He excludeth all from Christs Universal Church , and Christianity , that are no Members of Christian Congregations : Yet meaneth not only Churches , but Families , Ships or any civil Assemblies . Damning all solitary Christians , or that are alone among Infidels . 2. He maketh subjection to the supreme Pastor necessary , and yet saith the Votum of it alone will serve . Sect. 2. He unchurcheth Parish-Churches . He maketh dependance on lawful Pastors in general necessary , but not on the Pope particularly . Sect. 3 What Faith must be in a Church-member . His implicite discourse of implicite faith , which indeed is no faith of any particular Article . Several senses of implicite faith opened His general faith proved , No particular faith . In what sense we believe all that God hath revealed , Sect. 8. His instances explained , Sect. 9. When virtual repentance sufficeth , Sect. 10. His avoiding to answer , Sect. 11. The Papists Church invisible Sect. 12. His strange Doctrine of generals . Sect. 13. What Christianity is , is no point of faith with them , Sect. 14. The invisibility of their Church further proved , Sect. 15. Their contradictions about receiving all faith on the Churches Authority . Sect. 16. 17. The true method of believing . Sect. 18. Humane faith is joyned with Divine . Sect. 20. What the Essentials of Christianity are . Sect. 21. Papists utterly disagreed what a Christian is , and confounded , and their Church invisible , Sect. 22. Notes of great moment hereupon . The baptizing of men that believe only that [ there is a rewarding God ] is a new false baptism . Sect. 23. Q 3. Who are the Pastors whose rejection unchurcheth men ? Of Parish Priests . Q. 4. How shall all the world be sure that Popes and Priests had a just Election or ordination . Sect. 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. CHAP. 2. Their sense of the word HERESY . Whether Heresie be in will or understanding . Sect. 1. Hereticks by their definition are unknown , Sect. 2. The power of judging of the [ Sufficiency ] of proposals , make 's the Clergie Masters of all men lives , Sect. 3. He maketh none Hereticks that deny not Gods Veracity . Sect. 4. And all Hereticks to deny it ; Yea all that receive not every truth safficiently proposed . Yet unsaith all , and saith , that not culpable neglect of sufficient proof of all , but contradiction to the known proposal of lawful superiours , makes a Heretick . Sect. 7. Q. What sufficient proposal is . Sect. 8. 9. He saith that the true Church-Governours may be known without Revelation . Sect. 10. Sufficiency further examined . Sect. 11. He hereticateth themselves or none . Sect. 12. Whether every misunderstanding of an intelligible Text of Scripture be Heresie . Sect. 13. What Heresie is indeed . Sect. 14. CHAP. 3. Their meaning of the word POPE . Sect. 1. Popes judged Herteicks by many Councils . Where Christs institution of the Papacy must be found . Sect. 2. Who ad esse must elect the Pope . Sect. 3. W. J. cannot and dare not tell Consecration denyed to be necessary to the Pope . Sect. 6. Neither Papal nor Episcopal Iurisdiction , he saith , depends on Papal or Episcopal ordination . Sect. 7. So they may be Laymen . What such jurisdiction is . Sect. 8. What notice or proof is necessary to the subjects . CHAP. 4. Their sense of the word BISHOP . The Pope is not of Gods ordaining , in their way . Sect. 1. 2. Their Bishop of Calcedons testimony put off . Sect. 3. They make all men that will , or no men to be Bishops . His great confusion and contradictions . Saying , we want not Episcopal Consecration , but Election , Confirmation , Vocation , Missions , Jurisdiction . All these explained . Sect. 8. He makes the Chapters in Queen Elizabeth days to have had the power of choosing all the Parish Priests . Popes no Popes for want of common consent . Sect. 9. who must choose a Monark of all the earth . Sect. 10. Their succession interrupted . Sect. 11. 12. Is it essential to a Bishop to have many Congregations , parishes or presbyters . By affirming this he nullifieth all the first Bishops , who were Bishops before they made presbyters under them , and so denyeth all succession by denying the root . CHAP. 5. What they mean by TRADITION . Sect. 1. He thinks the Tradition of all the world may be known by every Christian ; as easily as the Tradition of the Canonical Scripture . Sect. 2. Tradition against Popery . Sect. 4. The Protestants , Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , &c. are of one Church . Sect. 4. The contradictions of W. J. The unity of all other Christians , as such , greater than the unity of Papists as Papists , Sect. 5. CHAP. 6. What they mean by a General COUNCIL . His definition of a general Council is no definition . Sect. 2. Councils of old not called by the Pope , Sect. 3. His confusion and contradictions . Sect. 4. General Councils were but of the Empire , proved . Sect. 5. The impossibility and utter unlawfulness of a true universal Council of the whole Christian world , proved . Sect. 6. How many make an universal Council . Sect. 7. They make presbyters uncapable of voteing in councils , and yet the highest ancient part of the Papacy ( viz. to preside in councils ) is oft deputed to presbyters , Sect. 8. The council of Basil that had presbyters rejected by them for other reasons . Sect , 9. CHAP. 7. What they mean by SCHISM . Papists acquit all from schism who separate not from the Whole visible Church of Christ , Sect. 1. We separated not from the Greeks , Arminians , &c. Sect. 3. He absurdly requireth that we should have our Mission and Jurisdiction from them , if we have communion with them , Sect. 4. We have the same faith with them , Sect. 5. How far we separate from Rome , Sect. 6. They were not our lawful pastors , Sect. 7. Of hearing the pharises , Sect. 8. We infer not Rebellion against Authority by our rejecting trayterous Usurpers , Sect. 9. Whether the first Reformers knowingly and wilfully separated from the whole Church on earth , Sect. 10. He pretendeth that the Churches unity is perfect , and therefore that it is impossible there should be any schism in it , but only from it , when their own sect had a schisme by divers Popes for forty years . Whether all that followed the wrong Pope those forty years were out of the Church and damned , Sect. 11. His definition of schism agreeth best to the Papists , who separate from all the Church save their own sect , Sect. 12. An admonition to others , Sect. 13. My Reasons unanswered by which I proved . 1. That we interrupted not our Church succession when we broke off from Rome . 2. That the Roman Church is changed in Essentials . PART . II. The PREFACE . ALL was not well said or done by every Bishop , or Council of old , Sect. 1 , 2 , 3. Of the considerableness of the extra-Imperial Churches of old . Sect. 4 , 5. The plea of Peters supremacy , and their succession , overthrown : There never were twelve Patriarchal seats as the successors of the twelve Apostles . No one Patriarch claimed to be an Apostles successor but Rome and Antioch , and Antioch never claimed supremacy on that account , Sect. 6. The true state of the controversie about the Churches perpetual visibility , Sect. 7. Papists make Christians no Christians , for not obeying the Pope , and no Christians to be Christians if they will be his subjects , Sect. 8 , 9. What I maintain , Sect. 10. A discourse republished proving that Christs Church hath no Universal Head but himself , ( Pope nor Council ) CHAP. 1. The Confutation of W. I's . Reply . Twelve instances confu●…ing the wild fundamental principle of W. J. that [ whatever hath been ever in the Church by Christs institution , is essential to it ] Sect. 4. By this he unchurcheth Rome , Sect. 5. He saith that every such thing is essential to the Church , but not to every member of the Church , but to such as have sufficient proposal , confuted , Sect 6. By this their Church cannot be known , or the faith of a few may make others Christians , Sect. 7. His assertion further confuted , Sect. 8. His Logical proof shamed [ that every accident is separable ] and therefore all that Christ instituted to continue is no accident , Sect. 9. Whether the belief of every institution for continuance , be essential to the Church , Sect. 10. They unchurch themselves , Sect. 11. He acknowledgeth that all Christian Nations are not bound to believe the Popes supremacy expresly , but implicitely in subjecting themselves to them that Christ hath instituted to be their lawful pastors . Five notable consequents of this : The true method of believing , Sect. 12. The instance of the conversion of the Iberians and Indians vindicated . He supposeth that every revealed truth was taught them by lay-persons , Sect. 13. The instance of Peters not preaching his own supremacy , Act. 2. vindicated , Sect. 14. The Indians converted by the English and Dutch are taught the true faith , Sect. 15. And so are the Abassines , Sect. 16. His Doctrine against Christs visible reign , containeth many gross errors commonly called Heresies . And by making the Christian world a Monster if it have not one Papal Head , he maketh the humane world a Monster because it hath not one humane King. Sect. 17. CHAP. 2. Our Churches visibility confessed . Theirs to be by them proved . How far any Protestants grant the power of Patriarchs , and the Pope as Patriarch , Sect. 1. He biddeth me but prove that any Church which now denieth the Popes Soveraignty hath been always visible , and he is satisfied , whether that Church always denyed it or not , Sect. 2. Notes hereon . Whether they should exclaim against Christ as an invisible Head , who make him as visible in the Eucharist to every receiver , as a King is in his cloathes , Sect. 3. Whether a Ministry be essential to the universal Church , Sect. 4. His Argument against our Christianity re-examined , and confuted by divers instances of such fallacies , Sect. 5. He requireth an instance of any Church-Unity , though without a humane head : which endeth the controversie , Sect. 6. More differences and greater amongst Papists than among all the other Churches , Sect. 7. He hath no evasion , but saying that these Churches are not Christians ( because they depend not on the Pope ) from which he before said that he abstracted , Sect. 8. He denieth us ( with the Abassines , Greeks , Armenians , &c. ) to have been of the Church , and of one Church , both fully proved , Sect. 9. The charge of Nestorianism and Eutichianism on many Churches , examined , Sect. 10. His shameful calling for the names of sects , and requiring proof of the Negative , that they are not such , Sect. 11. CHAP. 3. More of our Unity . Of the speech of Celestines Legat at Ephesus , Sect. 1 , 2. His saying and unsaying , Sect. 3. His instances of Goths , Danes , Swedes , examined , Sect. 4 , 5. Whether extra Imperial Churches were under the Pope , Sect. 5. In what cases some were , and which . His pretence to the Indians , Armenians , and Persians , examined , Sect. 6. The Tradition of these Churches is against Popery , Sect 7. His notorious fictions about the subjection of the Indians , Armenians , and Abassines , to Rome , Sect. 9. 10. Of Pisanus , Arabick , Nicene Canons , Sect. 11. He intended to write a Tractate to prove that extraneous Bishops were at the Councils . But that put-off goeth for an answer , Sect. 12. He confesseth that the very Gallicane and Spanish Liturgies mention not the Popes Soveraignty , no more than the Ethiopick , Sect. 13. When Constantine intreated the King of Persia for the Churches there , the Pope did not command there , Sect. 14. Whether before Gregory's Mission , the British Church was ever subject to the Pope , or heretical , Sect. 15. Reynerius words vindicated , viz. [ The Churches of the Armenians , Ethiopians , and Indians , and the rest which the Apostles converted , are not under the Church of Rome . Sect. 16. The 28. Can. of the Council of Calcedon vindicated , which declareth the Pope to be but the first Patriarch in the Empire , by humane right , for the sake of the Imperial City , Sect. 17. 18 , 19 , 20. His brave attempt to prove that extra-Imperial Bishops were summoned to the Councils , At Nice of John Persidis , Armenians , Gothia ; At Ephes. 1. Thebamnon Bishop of Coptus , Sect. 21. 22. His other citations confuted , Sect. 23. Of Eusebius his circular Letter , Sect. 24. CHAP. 4. The Emperors and not the Pope called the old Councils , Sect. 1. Myraeus his Notitia Episcopat against him , Sect. 2. Of the authority over the barbarous given , Con. Calced . c. 28. Proof that the Papal power was held to be but jure humano , Sect. 5. He was over but one Empire , Sect. 6. No councils but of one Empire . Prospers testimony examined , & caput mundi expounded , Sect. 7. Pope Leo's words examined , Sect. 8 , 9. The Decretal Epistles shew the Popes ruled not the world , Sect. 10. More of Ethiopia and Pisanus's Canons , Sect. 11. CHAP. 5. The Case re●…eated . The uselesness of his Testimonies therein . CHAP. 6. The Vanity of his proofs that Councils were called General as to all the world , and not only to the Empire . From the words [ totius orbis ] from the end , the peace of the World : and the rest , Sect. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. His Question answered , what Hereticks are Christians , Sect. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. He saith that no Heretick believeth for the authority of God revealing ; and so acquitteth all that do but believe that God is true , which is all that believe indeed that there is a God , Sect. 12. Of sufficiency of proposal of truths . It is not equal . He absolveth Hereticks . And maketh Hereticks of the Papists , Sect. 13 , 14 , 15. Whether the Papists and Protestants are one Church . Whether the Pope and Christ are two heads . Whether a King that saith God hath made me the Vice-god of all the earth , set not up a policy destinct from Gods , Sect. 16. One called a Papist may be a Christian , and another not , Sect. 17. 18. CHAP. 7. Whether we separate from the Church , as the old Hereticks did , Sect. 1. Whether we separate from other Churches as we do from the Papal , Sect. 2. Arrians separate from the Church as Christian , Sect. 3. Why they-call us Schismaticks , Sect. 4. 5. Papists agree not whether Hereticks are in the Church , Sect. 6. What we hold herein , Sect. 6. His absurd answer , Sect. 7. Whether every man deny Christs veracity who receiveth not every truth sufficiently proposed , Sect. 8 , 9. He maketh it a grand novelty of mine , to say that there may be divisions in the Church , and not from the Church , because the Church is a most perfect unity . The shame of this charge , Sect. 10 , 11. His charge of Eutychianisme on the Abassines , &c. Sect. 12. Of self-conceited hereticating wits , Sect. 12. Whether the Abassines confess themselves Eutichianes , Sect. 14. Of the Greek Churches rejecting us , Sect. 16. The Greek Church claimed not Soveraignty over all the world , but in the Empire Sect. 17 , 18 , 19. Whether every child , subject , or neighbour , must judg Hereticks , and avoid them unsentenced , Sect. 20. His false answer to the testimony of their own writers , that free the Greeks from heresie , Sect. 21. The witness of the Council of Florence , That the Greeks meant Orthodoxly , Sect. 23. Nilus testimony vindicated , Sect. 24 Our unity with Greeks and others , Sect. 25. A notable passage of Meletius Patriarch of Alexandria and Constantinople , for the sole Headship of Christ , and the Popes usurpation , novelties , and forsaking tradition , which ( with Cyril's testimony ) W. J. passed over , Sect. 26. The Answer to W. J's second part of his Reply . Sect. 1. SUfficient answers to all his citations pretermitted in terms . Sect. 2. Because I cite a Patriarch and Councils excommunicating a Pope by the Emperor Theodosius countenance , he saith , I plead for Rebellion . Sect. 4. His instances of the Popes extraneous power confuted . Sect. 5. His particular proofs ( before promised in a special Tract ) examined , 1. His error of Theophilus Gothiae , Sect. 6. 2. Of Domnus Bosphori his gross error , Sect. 7. 3. Of Joh. Persidis , Sect. 8. 4. Of Bishops of Scythia , Sect. 9. 5. Of Etherius Anchialensis ( for Sebastianus ) , Sect. 10. 6. Of Phaebamnon Copti . Sect. 11. 7. Of Theodulus Esulae ( so falsly called ) , Sect. 12. 8. Of Theodorus Gadarorum , Sect. 13. 9. Of Antipater Bostrorum , Sect. 14. 10. Of Olympius Schythopoleos , Sect. 15. 11. Of Eusebius Gentis Saracenorum , Sect. 16. 12. Constantinus Bostrorum , Sect. 17. 13. One pro Glaco Gerassae . All shew his gross ignorance of the Bishopricks of the Empire . Sect. 19. The Nestorians Epistle at the Council Ephes. to Callimores Rex , expounded . Sect. 20 , 21. Remarks upon passages in the first Ephisine Council . Sect. 22. Remarks of the Council of Calcedon . Sect. 23. Of the Titles , Caput Mundi , Mater omnium Ecclesiarum , Primatus Apostolicus , &c. given to Antioch and Jerusalem . Sect. 24. Binnius confession , that at Conc. Const. 1. The Pope presided not , per se vel per Legatos . Sect. 25. His assertion , that the Councils pretended to jurisdiction over the Church through all the World , examined . Sect. 26. The vanity of his first proof . Sect. 27 , 28. Of his second and third . More Notes of the Council . Calced . Sect. 29. His fourth instance confuted . Sect. 30. His fifth confuted . Sect. 31. His sixth confuted . Sect. 32. His last instance vain . Sect. 33. He could not disprove the Roman Church from being really two Churches ( named one ) as having two supreme Heads . Sect. 34. I could not intreat him by any provocation , to prove the continued visibility of the Church as Papal . PART . III. A Defence of my Arguments , for our continued visibility . Sect. 1. WHether all Believers are Christians . Sect. 2. The vanity of his next Cavil against my definition . Sect. 3. My definition of Protestants vindicated . Sect. 4. One may have communion with faulty Churches . Sect. 5. His shameful reformation of Syllogisms , and pretence of Logical form . Sect. 6. He denieth Protestants to be of the Church of Christ. I prove it . His silly cavils at the form of the Argument . Sect. 7. Protestants profess all the Essentials of Christianity . Proved . His cavils shamed . Sect. 8. His oft repeated Reason confuted , of not receiving the Churches expositions . Sect. 9. The novelty and discord of Popery . The confusions in Councils . Sect. 10. My second Argument's to prove , that we hold all essentials : The Popish faith explained . Sect. 12. My third Argument , Creed and Scriptures are with them too little ; and yet , an insufficient proposal makes Christianity it self unnecessary . Sect. 12. He giveth up his Cause , confessing the sufficiency of our explicite belief . Sect. 13. My fourth Argument , His ridiculous denying , that to deny the minor , is to deny the antecedent . Sect. 14. The minor proved : All Protestants , as such , profess to love God : Ergo , sincere Protestants do love him . What miracles believing in the Pope doth . Sect. 15. He had no way to deny that Protestants profess true faith , but by his impudent denying , 1. That we profess to love God. 2. And that we feel that we do love him . Sect. 20. My second Argument , to prove the perpetual visibility of our Church , confoundeth him . Sect. 21. Scripture sufficiency . Sect. 22. My third Argument , and his shameful Answer . Sect. 25. My fourth Argument proveth the visibility of our Church , not only as Christian , but as without Popery . Ten sub-arguments for that , 1 From the twenty-eighth Canon of Conc. Calced . 2. From the silence of the old Writers against Hereticks . Sect. 28. 3. From Tradition proved . 4. From Churches never subject to Rome . His citations briefly confuted . S●…ct . 30. 5. From the non-subjection , even of the Imperial Churches . Sect. 32. 6. From Gregory the first 's testimony . Sect. 33. 7. From their confessions , Aen. Silvius , Reynerius , Canus , Binnius , vindicated . Sect. 38. 8. Phocas giving the Primacy to Boniface . Sect. 39 , 9. Their Liturgy new . Sect. 40. Twelve instances of new Articles of the Papists Faith , which he durst not Answer . S●…ct . 42. The tenth Argument , he yieldeth the cause in sense . S●…ct . 43. Notable testimonies unanswered . S●…ct . 44. Papists differ de fide . Sect. 47. What Hereticks are , or are not in the Church ; fully opened : His shameful exclaiming against me for distinguishing . Sect. 48. Fifty six of Philastrius Heresies , named , many being small matters , and many notorious certain truths . Sect. 49. The woful work of Hereticating Councils . Sect. 50. Councils hereticated Popes and one another : Almost all the Christian world hereticate one another . Sect. 55. His reasons answered for unchurching all Hereticks . Sect. 60. Their Doctrine of sufficient proposal fullier confuted , and their hereticating and unchurching themselves , evinced . Mr. Iohnson's ( alias Terret's ) Explication of seven Terms of our Questions examined , and his confusion manifested . CHAP. I. Question 1. WHAT mean you by the Catholick Church ? W. J. The Catholick Church is all those Visible Assemblies , Congregations or Communities of Christians , who live in unity of true faith , and external Communion with one another , and in dependance of their lawful Pastors . R. B. Qu. 1. Whether you exclude not all those converted among Infidels , that never had external communion , nor were members of any particular visible Church , of which you make the Catholick to to be constituted . W. J. It is sufficient that such be subject to the supreme Pastors in voto , or quantum in se est , resolved to be of that particular Church actually , which shall or may be designed for them by that Pastor , to be included in my definition . R. B. You see then that your definitions signifie nothing : No man knoweth your meaning by them . W. J. You shall presently see that your Exceptions signifie less than nothing . R. B. 1. You make the Catholick Church to consist only of visible Assemblies ; and after you allow such to be members of the Church , that are no visible Assemblies . W. J. I make those converted Infidels visible Assemblies , as my definition speaks , though not actual members of any particular visible Church . For though every particular visible Church be an assembly of Christians , yet every assembly of Christians is not a particular visible Church . I do not therefore allow such to be of the Church , who are no visible assemblies , as you misconceive . R. B. 1. Would any man have understood that by [ Visible Assemblies ] the man had not meant only [ Churches ] but also Families , Schools , Cities , & c ? 2. Doth he not here expresly deny all those persons to be of the Church , who are not members of some other visible assemblies . And if a man be a Pilgrim , a Hermite , or if one or many be cast upon an uninhabited coast , and if any are members of no visible assembly , as Merchants , Embassadors to Infidels , &c. when will he prove that this unchristeneth or unchurcheth them ? R. B. 2. You now mention subjection to the supreme Pastor , as sufficient , which in your description or definition you did not . W. J. Am I obliged to mention all things in my definition , which I express after in answering your Exceptions . Ans. All that belongs to a notifying definition . R. B. 3. If to be only in Voto resolved to be of a particular Church , will serve ; then inexistence is not necessary : To be only in Voto of the Catholick Church , proveth no man a member of it , because it is terminus diminuens , but the contrary . Seeing then by your own confession , inexistence in a particular Church , is not of necessity to inexistence in the Catholick Church , why do you not only mention it in your definition , but confine the Church to it ? W. J. I make them actually inexistent in some visible assembly , according to my definition , and in Voto only in a particular Church : Now every particular family or neighbourhood , nay two or three gathered in prayer , is an actual assembly . R. B. Strange Doctrine ! so it is of necessity to our Christianity and Salvation , that we be members of a Christian City or Village , or Fair or Market , or some Meeting ! And so all Christians that live solitarily in Wildernesses , or among Turks or Heathens , are all unchristened and damned . W. J. St. Hierome saith , Ecclesia est plebs unita Episcopo . — In this consists your fallacy , that you esteem none to be actually members of the Universal Church , unless they be actual members of some particular Church , which I deny . R. B. I thought verily it had been I that was denying it , all this while . This is dispu●…ing in the dark . Will you say that you meant in Voto ? who can understand you then , when you say , They must be of visible assemblies , and mean that they need not be of any , but wish they were , or purpose to be so . W. J. It is sufficient if they be actually of some assembly or congregation of Christians , though it be no particular Church . R. B. 1. Here is a new Exposition of Solomon's Vae soli , Wo to him that is alone ; for he is unchristened by it , or unchurched . O poor Anchorites , Hermites , that are alone , and shipwrackt Christians , &c. 2. Here is a new found priviledg of having company , if in a Tavern or Alehouse ; and of being married and in a family ; such may be Christians , when the solitary cannot . Who would have thought that the Papists had held this ! But you say nothing to the case of them that are converted to Christ by a solitary Preacher , that never tells him of a supreme Pastor , as the English and Dutch convert many Indians : Can they be subject to him that they hear not of ? W. J. Whether he be named or no , the Church must be supposed to be sufficiently explicated to them , as having some prudent manner of Government ; so that they must be instructed to render obedience to such Governours as Christ instituted in his Church , which is virtually to a chief Pastor . R. B. 1. So they that take the Pope for Antichrist , may virtually be Papists : Be content with that virtue . 2. But I think that even that general belief of Pastoral Government is necessary ad bene esse , rather than ad esse of a Christian. R. B. 1. I note by the way to be hereafter remembred , his description of a particular Church as given by Hierome , that it is Plebs unita Episcopo ; and Cyprian saith , Ubi Episcopus ibi Ecclesia . And Ignatius , To every church there is one Altar , and one Bishop , with the Prosbyters and Deacons . But by this Rule they make those that are now called Parish-Churches , to be no Churches , but only parts of a particular Church . 2. Note , that in his Definition he maketh living in external communion essential to those Congregations or Communities of Christians who make up the Catholick Church ; but tells us not whether it must be a Civil or only a Religious Communion ; or what Religious Communions besides unity of faith and dependance on Pastors it must be : If by those words , pag. 3. every particular family or neighbourhood , he express that external communion , then if their Pastors never give them Gods Word , Sacraments , or Prayer , it may serve . 3. He saith , p. 4. In this consists your fallacy , that you esteem none to be actually members of the universal Church , unless they be actual members of some particular Church , which I deny . Which is his meer fiction , of which I was so far from giving him any occasion , that I was charging it as an error on himself ; reasonably supposing that by Visible Assemblies he had meant Churches . 4. Note that he maketh it essential to the members of the Catholick Church , that they depend on their lawful Pastors , and yet that it is but a virtual subjection to the Pope ( by subjecting themselves to Christs manner of Government ) which is essential . 1. Are not all Protestants and other Christians that own not the Pope , true members of the Church then , while they subject themselves in general to Christs manner of Government ? 2. He subjecteth himself to no Governour , who doth it not to some existent individual : For the universal , existeth not but in the individuals . And if it be not necessary that the Pope be this individual then subjection to some other is more essential than to the Pope And who is that who must be preferred before him ? Q. 2. What is that Faith in unity whereof all members of the Catholick Church do live ? Is it the belief of all that God hath revealed to be believed ? or of part ? and of what part ? W. J. Of all , either explicitely or implicitely . R. B. He might easily have known that it is explicite belief which the question meant ; for his implicite belief is the actual belief of nothing but the general , and not of any unknown particulars . Where there is no object in esse cognito vel percepto , there is no act of faith ( for the object essentiateth the act in specie . ) And where only the general object is perceived , and no particular , ( e. g. All that God saith in Scripture is true , when one word of Scripture is not known ) there is no object for a particular belief : But it is the belief of this or that in particular that we enquire of ( e. g. that Jesus is the Christ , &c. ) Your implicite belief is actual belief of the general ; but of particulars it is actually none at all , as common reason tells us . His reply to this I shall answer by parts in order . R. B. We have here a most implicite account of the implicite faith which is essential to a Church-member . The man would make the ignorant believe , that their Schools are agreed of the sense , when he might easily know the contrary . I mentioned different senses of implicite faith . 1. When Particulars are known and believed actually , but confusedly , and not distinctly , but in gross . So Dr. Holden in Analys . sid . seemeth to take it : so the parts are seen or known oft in the whole ; so a purblind man seeth all the letters , men , trees , &c. before him . I see all the sand in the hour-glass , or much ; but not distinctly one sand from another . This is a real knowledg of the very things , but an imperfect knowledg . 2. But besides this , there is a knowledg of things only in their general nature , which is a real knowledg , but partial and imperfect . As when I see something coming towards me afar of , and know not whether it be a man or a beast , I say it is an animal or a wight ; but what , I know not . This is not to know the thing formally , but to know aliquid rei , somewhat of that thing . 3. There is also a knowledg which besides the general nature , extendeth to some inadequate conception of the form , but leaveth out other parts of the conception which are essential . As when one knoweth so much of a man as that he hath a rational soul , and not that he hath a body ; or that his soul is a virtus intellectiva , but not that it is volitiva ; or when one knoweth that fire is formally a virtus illuminativa , but not that it is calefactiva or motiva . This is a real knowledg , but partial , and not formal , being not of the whole essence . So when one knoweth Christ to be God , but not to be man , or man and not God ; or to be a Teacher , but not a King or Priest ; this is not properly to know Christ , but somewhat of Christ. 4. There is a knowledg of meer universal Propositions , ( which is but Organical as to things : ) And this is no knowledg of all the particular things spoken of , nor oft of many , nor sometimes of any of them ; nor of the particular Propositions which should be further known ; nor of the conclusion that should be infer'd from both . For instance , Men may say that Omnis spiritus est immaterialis . And one may mean and know by it , but as the Sadducees , or Hobs , or Gassendus , that a spirit is a chimaera , & si daretur spiritus , immaterialis foret . And another may doubt and mean , si detur spiritus , immaterialis est . And another may hold that there is no spirit but God , and the Anima Mundi , and say that these are immaterial , and never the more believe that Angels or Souls are spirits : And no man can reasonably imagine , that omnis spiritus est immaterialis , doth include omnis anima est spiritus ; or that W. I's est spiritus immaterialis . So one may say , that all that are sanctified shall be glorified ; and yet not believe that Peter , Paul , yea , or Christ were Holy : of this sort of knowledg I mentioned that which is a belief of no more but the formal object of Faith , that is , Gods veracity , that God cannot lye ; and so , that all that God saith is true : when yet one that confesseth this , denieth all the Bible to be his Word , and believeth rather . Mahomet , Amida , or Confutius to have been Gods Messengers , or the ancient Oracles at Delphos , &c. to have been his word . But the confused Head of W. I. confoundeth several of these different sorts ; and because he thought that he might handsomly call a meer general knowledg , or faith , confused ; therefore he confoundeth the true confused faith with the general , which are easily distinguished . And first he calls for my proof , That a meer general belief , is no belief at all of the particulars ; ( though a confused faith may ) I prove it . 1. Where there is no intellectual conception of the particulars , there is no actual belief of the particulars : But where there is only a conception of a general proposition , there is no intellectual conception of the particulars : Ergo , &c. the major is undeniable , and the minor no less . 2. Where the particular Object is not understood or believed , there is not the particular Act of knowing or believing that Object ; for the Object is essential to the Act : But where there is only a knowledg and belief of the general Object , there the particular Object is not understood or believed . Ergo , &c. 3. That is not an actual belief of the particulars , which may consist with the actual belief of the contradictory : But a meer belief of the General Proposition may consist i h the contradictory to the belief of particulars . Ergo , &c. But he comes upon me with some instances so worded , as may deceive the ignorant . 1. Saith he , Doth not this Proposition , Omne animal vivit , contain the substance of these truths , Equus vivit , Leo vivit , Aquila vivit , & c ? Answ. No surely , unless by substance , you mean not the other Proposition , but somewhat else , what you list ; for it containeth not the very subject , that there is such a thing as Equus , Leo , Aquila in being , and that they are animalia . May not a man that never heard or believed that there was such a creature as an Eagle , Lyon , &c. ( no more than a Unicorn or Phaenix ) yet know that omne animal vivit ? 2. He saith , Believing all that is in Scripture is the Word of God , and true expresly , I believe in confuso , all that is in Genesis , &c. Answ. Yes , if ( in confuso ) be terminus diminuens to actual belief of the particulars : By meer believing the first , you do not actually believe a word of Genesis or Exodus , &c. for your Proposition saith not that there is any such Book in the Scripture : As I believe all the holy Scripture to be true , and yet believe not Tobit , Iudith , Bell and the Dragon to be true , because I believe them not to be the Holy Scriptures ; so may others by Genesis , Exodus , &c. as the Hereticks of old denied many Books : and as Infidels may believe all that is Gods Word to be true , and yet not believe that the Scripture is his Word . 3. Saith he , Is not an express knowledg of the Genus , a confused knowledg of species under it : and so the species of the individua ? Answ. Yes , if by confused knowledg , you mean no knowledg of them , it is no true knowledg of them at all . 4. But he saith that my words ( not knowing whether you be Animal or Cadaver ) is a contradictory Proposition . Answ. Say you so ? May not I see you asleep , and think that you are dead ? Doth this Proposition , Omne animal vivit , include that there is such a Wight in being , as W. I. or N. N ? or that he is now alive ? or that it is really a Man and not a Horse that is so called , any more than that Bucephalus was a Man ? Yet doth he back these absurdities with advising me to a little more heed to what I write ? Note that page 9 , he asserteth that , The object of implicite faith delivered in the Schools , is nothing save particular truths contained in substance under some general propositions ; so that they be neither known nor believed distinctly and expresly ; yet in confuso they are , by the knowledg or belief of their general proposition . Answ. But there is a confused knowledg of particulars which is actual , of the Being of them , though not distinct , not fit or ripe for words to utter it : This is different from the knowledg of meer Generals ; which is indeed no knowledg of the particulars , that any such are contained in those generals at all . He next comes to expound his words , That faith believeth all that God revealeth explicitely or implicitely ; that is now some things explicitely , and some things implicitely ; when as I asked him , What was the faith in which we must unite ? who would have expected such an answer , That it is a general belief of all things revealed , and a particular belief of some things ? That it is such a belief of all particulars , as is no real actual belief of some of them ; and it is an actual belief of other some ? But is any man ever the nearer the knowledg of their minds by this ? 1. Here is no notice what the General is that must be believed : He professeth that it is not the formal object only , that is , The veracity , or faithfulness of God the Revealer : And what else it is whether that all that the Scripture revealeth is true , or that all that the Church declareth to be Gods word is true ; and whom we must take for that Church , &c. he hath not told us ; and so hath given an answer which is no answer . 2. Nor hath he told us what the Particulars are that must be believed : But we may know what faith it is that the Church must unite in , by hearing that it is something we know not what ; or that it is somewhat in general , and somewhat in particular : Doth this account satisfie themselves ? or do they look that it should satisfie us ? Will this distinguish their Church from Hereticks or Mahometans ? Do not these believe somewhat in general , and somewhat in particular ? And do not Heathens do the same ? If this be enough for Christianity or Concord , why do they call us Hereticks ? Are we not all of that Faith which believeth somewhat in General ( even that all Gods Word is true ) and somewhat in Particular ? But it 's well that he saith , that the explicite belief of somewhat is necessary , though we may not know what . And he tells us , That while they have an explicite belief of some Articles they can never be thought to be without faith . Answ. Either he meaneth that faith which was in the question , which must notifie us from Hereticks and from others without , and which the Church must unite in , or some other faith : If any other , doth he not wilfully juggle , and fly from answering when he pretends to answer ? If he means the faith in question , then Mahometans and Heathens are of their Faith , and Members of their Church ; yea , and all that they call Hereticks , and anathematize themselves ; yea , and the Devils that believe and tremble . But one would think , that , pag. 11 , he described the necessary implicite Faith ▪ when he saith , Our ordinary sense is , so to believe that point , that we have no distinct or express knowledg of it , but only a confused understanding ; because it is contained , in confuso , under this proposition , I believe all that God hath revealed : or I believe all that is delivered to be believed in the Holy Scripture . Answ. 1. But I must again repeat , that here the word , confused , is used but to confound : This is no actual belief of any particular under that proposition . When a thing is actually known in it self , but only by a General knowledg , or not d●…stinct , this is truly an Impersect knowledg ; It is to know somewhat of that thing , though not its form or individuation : If I see something , which I know not whether it be a Man or a Tree , a Steeple or a Rock ; I verily know somewhat of that thing it self , but not the form of it . If I see a Book open at two-yards distance , I see the Letters distinctly , but not formally ; for I know not what any one of them is . If I see a clod of Earth , or a River , I see much of the very substance of the earth and water ; but I discern not the sands or the drops as distinct parts : Here something is known , though the special or numerical difference ( much more some accidents ) be unknown . But in knowing W. I's general proposition only , I know nothing at all of the particulars , as shall yet be further manifested . 2. And mark what his general Proposition is , which , he saith , is the object of their Implicite saith , viz. I believe all that God hath revealed , or , all that is delivered to be believed in the Holy Scripture . Either he really meaneth that this is the implicite faith by which Christians are notifi●…d , and which uniteth the Members of the Church , and distinguisheth them from those without ; or he doth not : If he do not , what doth he but deceive his R●…ader ? If he do , then as I said , All Christians , Hereticks , most Mahometans and Heathens , believe the first proposition , viz. That all is true that God revealeth . And Protestants and Papists , and most other sorts of Christians agree in the second , The Scripture-truth . Here then is a justification of our Faith so far . But do you think that he meaneth as he seemeth to mean ? Do they not hold it also necessary , that men must take their Church to be the declarer of this Scripture-truth ? And also that Tradition not written in the Bible be believed ? Must not both these make up their Implicite Faith ? If our general Faith and theirs be the same , what maketh them accuse us herein as they do ? But now , pag. 11. he proceeds to assault me , with such reasoning as this : No man knoweth all that God hath revealed , to wit , with an actual understanding of every particular : Ergo say I , No man believes all that God hath revealed . Now I proceed , If no man believe all that God hath revealed , then you believe not all that God hath revealed . Then further , Whoever believeth not all that God hath revealed , is no good Christian , nor in state of salvation : But you believe not all that God hath revealed , Ergo , you are no good Christian , nor in a state of salvation . See you not how fair a thred you have spun ? Or will you say , that he that believes not all that God hath revealed is a good Christian ? If you will , you may ; but no good Christian will believe you . Answ. The man seemeth in good sadness in all this Childish Play ; And must Rome be thus upheld ? And must poor mens Faith and Consciences be thus laid upon a game at Cheating Words ? No wonder that this Hector would have nothing said in dispute but syllogism , &c. Few Lads and Women would unmask his pitiful deceits ; whether the great disputer saw their vanity himself I know not : But men at age , that can speak and try sense , will see , that all this Cant is but the sporting-equivocation of one syllable ALL : This ALL is either a term of a meer general proposition : e. g. All Gods word is true . Here I believe what is predicated of this general word ALL , and take this for a true proposition , ALL Gods word is true : Or it signifieth the very things , species , or parts , as in themselves known ; and so if the very things , species , or parts generally expressed by the word ALL , be not themselves known as such things , species , or parts , it is no actual knowledg of them at all , to know that truth of the said general proposition . And doth not every novice in Logick know this ? The same I say of Beliefs as of Knowledg ; He is no good Christian , who believeth not that all Divine Revelations are true ( which Hereticks and Heathens believe ) But neither I , nor any Christian known to him or me , knoweth or believeth ALL the particular verities which God hath revealed : And he believeth not one of them ( beside that proposition it self which is found among the rest ) who believeth but that general . But yet he will justifie his vanity by more instances : pag. 12 , he saith , When you profess in t●…e Creed , that God is the Creator of all things visible and invisible , I demand , Do you believe as you profess ? If you do , then you may believe with an actual belief , that he is the Creator of many things visible and invisible , whereof you have no actual understanding , or which are wholly unknown particularly , or distinctly to you , or by any other knowledg , than as confusedly contained in the word ALL. Ans. 1. What 's all this , but to say , that I believe this proposition , All things , of which many are unknown to ●…e , are created by God ? This proposition I know and believe ; but the things themselves as such , I no further believe than I know : if I know not that they are , I believe not that they are : if I know not what they are , I believe not what they are ; that is , if I have not an intellectual conception That they are , and What they are : for believing is indeed but a knowing by the medium of a Testimony or Revelation , and the veracity of the Revealer . I believe that God ma●… all that is about the Center of the earth ; and yet I neither know nor actually believe any one thing , species , or individual or part that is there . If the question be , whether there be there fire , water , air , earth , gold , silver , or men or divels , created by God ? I neither know nor believe that there is , or is not . A Sadducee or an Atheist may believe , That all that is in heaven is good : Is this an implicite actual belief , that God , Angels , and Spirits are good , when he believeth not that in heaven or any-where else , there is any God , or any Angel , or Spirit ? A Protestant believeth , that he can prove by the Bible , that the Pope is a Traytor against Christ by claiming his prerogative . Doth he also believe , that he is Christs Vicar-General , because he believeth that the Bible is true ? Protestants believe that all Tradition is true which really cometh down to us from Christ and his Apostles by credible evidence : Doth it follow that they believe the Papists Traditions to be true , when they believe multitudes of them to be novelties or fictions contrary to Scripture , and to the Tradition of the greatest part of the Church ? The Papist woman mentioned by Dr. White , believed the Creed ; but she knew and believed no more of Iesus Christ , but that it was some good thing ( she knew not what ) or else it would not have been in the Creed . But he goeth on : You profess to believe that All men shall rise at the last coming of Christ ; and yet you have no actual knowledg of many thousands . Ans. And what then ? If I know not that those thousands had a being , and were men , I cannot know or believe that they shall rise ; notwithstanding I believe , that All shall rise : and if the question be , whether this , or that , or thousands that you may name , shall rise , I know not , because I know not whether you feign not men that never were . If any were so foolish as not to know that there ever were more men in the world than he hath seen , he cannot believe that any more shall rise ; and yet may believe that All shall rise ; not all in true reality , as signifying the whole that hath existed indeed ; but all as the subject-term in the proposition . When I say all shall rise , I do not only say that I believe that proposition ; but I know many individuals contained in the whole ; and I know that there are more than I personally know , and that there have been more than I have heard of ; and by the word all ▪ I mean all these particulars inclusively ; and so the word being a General expressing A Totum ▪ some of whose parts I have known by sight , and others by history , and I know that other parts have been , but some parts I know not at all that they have been , accordingly my belief is according to the object , partly singular , partly particular , partly indefinite , and partly universal . He proceeds : Act. 24. 5 , 14. Credens omnibus quae in Lege & Prophetis scripta sunt : Yet Paul had not an actual understanding of every particular contained in them . Ans. Then he had not an actual belief of those particulars . He believed in general , that all Gods word was true ; and he believed all in particular which he knew to be part of that word : But when he thought that he ought to do many things against the Name of Jesus , and persecuted and blasphemed him , had he then an actual belief that This Iesus was the Messiah ? He addeth : A Christian that hath forgotten some sin , yet at death is sorrowful for all his sins ; Hath he no actual sorrow for that forgotten sin ? I answer , No : if he have no actual understanding of it . There were some that Christ foretelleth would think that they did God service by killing his servants : Do you think that if these repented of all sin in general , and took this for a duty , that this were an actual repentance for this sin ? Nay , is a meer general repentance , any actual repentance at all , if it extend to no particulars ? If a man say , I repent of all my sin , but I think I have no sin , but my hearing , praying , being a Christian , &c. doth he actually repent of any ? And as to your instance , if you do but forget a sin , it implieth that you did once remember it , and perhaps repented of it then ; but if you know not or remember not that ever you committed any such thing , or that it is any sin , you have no actual repentance of that sin . O but saith he , What horrid Doctrine would this be ? Ans. What a childish exclamation is this ! It 's ten to one but if you were well examined your self , you would confess that all this quarrel is but de nomine . You confess that here is no particular repentance or faith of the thing in question ; nor are universals as containing the particulars known confusedly in themselves ; but with the bare name of an actual knowledg of Particulars , you would cheat them that have only the knowledg of the universal Proposition . That you may see it is no horrid Doctrine , consider , that 1. If this general repentance have also joined a particular repentance of all such sin as must be so repented of , of necessity , to Salvation , then a virtual repentance of other forgotten particular sins , will prove sufficient to pardon and salvation . A general repentance which hath an actual hatred of sin as sin , and a habit inclining the person unfeignedly to repent of all sin when he knoweth it [ joined with an actual repentance of all that he knoweth , and a faithful endeavour to know all ] this is not an actual repentance of the unknown particulars ; but it may be called a virtual repentance of them , because there is that cause , that virtue , that Grace which would produce an actual repentance if the impediment of forgetfulness were removed . But even confused actual repentance , hath not a total oblivion or ignorance of the particulars , but only a confused knowledg and memory of them , and is another thing than the knowledg of Universals . He adds , One that forgiveth all injuries , and hath forgotten some ; doth he not forgive those forgotten ? Ans. Yes , if the word forgiveness signifie the effect , or his act as sufficient to that effect : For it is in his power to discharge , acquit , or forgive another , by a meer general remission or discharge , though he remembred but one or no particular at all : But if by forgiving you mean an act of his will whose object is the crime as well as the punishment , and evil consequents remitted ; he so actually forgiveth in his own mental act no more than he knoweth : But his general forgiveness sufficeth to all the ends without it ; and such a sufficient remission goeth commonly by the name of full forgiveness : But instead of speaking to the point in hand , you play with ambiguous words of another sense and subject . Forgiving another is an act of the Will , whose effect is extrinsecal ; and as a man may burn a house , or give away or sell a house , and all that is in it , though he know not what is in it ; so a man may remit all debts or penalties to another , or the King may pardon all crimes by an Act of Oblivion , without knowing what they are : But if the question were about an intellectual act , whose object doth specifie it intrinsecally in the mind ; As whether the King actually know the particular crimes which he pardoneth ? If you say that he knoweth the particulars actually in confuso , because the only knoweth in general that some crimes there are , this is but to talk against all the usual ●…ense of mankind , and to call that , An actual knowing of particulars in confuso , which other men call , No actual knowledg of particulars , but only of generals , which in some cases may be called a virtual knowledg of Particulars , ( which is no actual knowledg of them ) and in some not . But if he had heard some imperfect confused Narratives of the crimes themselves , this might be called , An actual conf●…ed knowledg of them . But mark Reader what edification is to be expected from these mens Disputations . He knew very well that he and I are agreed that all Christians must take Gods Veracity in his Revelations for the formal object , without which faith is no faith , and so must believe that God cannot lie , and that all is true which he asserteth . And that we Protestants hold that this is not enough , nor includeth the knowledg or belief of any thing which he hath revealed ( beside this one general ) : He knoweth that our question is , Whether it be not necessary to believe some particulars as revealed by God ? And whether this faith do not go to essentiate a Christian and a member of the Church ? And if so , then what those particulars are which must be believed to constitute a true Christian and member of the Church . Now he durst not come into the light , and answer this question ; but as if he were mocking women or children , saith , All that God hath revealed must be believed explicitely or implicitely . We understand you , Sir , that we must believe this Proposition , All that God revealeth is true . But is that enough ? then Heathens , Idolaters , Sadducees , Infidels , Mahometans , are Christians and members of your Church . ( But do they think so themselves ? ) If you can thus with a juggle make all the world Christians , the like art may make them subjects of the Pope . No , saith he , there must some things also be believed explicitely . But the question is , What they are ? O there you must excuse him ; he dare not , he cannot tell you what . But Sir , are these [ some things ] essential to Christianity and Church-membership , or not ? If you say , Not ; what ! nothing essential to Christian faith in particular ? Is it faith , and yet a belief of nothing in particular ? Is there no material difference at all between a Christian and a Sadducee , Infidel , Mahometan , or Heathen ? And yet cannot Protestants be saved for want of the right belief ? O marvellous Religion ! But if any particular belief be necessary , cannot it be known what it is ? How then can a Christian be known by himself or others from all the unbelieving world ? or your Church from other men ? This was my question to you , Is not your Church then invisible , when no man can know what makes a member of it ? And yet the man talketh confidently in his darkness , as if this would serve instead of light : and saith , I make my Church visible , though by comprehending in it all those who profess an explicite faith in several Articles , which they understand distinctly , and an implicite belief of the rest whereof they have not distinct understanding , by professing that they believe all that God hath revealed to be believed by them , whatsoever they be in particular : Now so long as they persevere in this belief , though they should happen through culpable negligence not to arrive to the knowledg of many things which they ought to know necessitate praecepti , yet they remain members ( though corrupt and wicked ) of the Church : Whereby you see how easily I avoid that difficulty which you thought I could not . Ans. Too easily against all reason , Reader , this Paragraph is worth the nothing . 1. Several Articles must be believed explicitely : but not a word to tell you which , or what they are ; or whether it be any whatever that will serve the turn , if it be but that Cain was the son of Adam . 2. The implicite belief of all the rest , is not here said to be any implicite belief of the Pope , Council or Church of Rome , but that they believe all that God hath revealed to be believed by them . And are we not yet so far right and reconciled ? This is too kind to the Protestants , For it takes in all mankind with them who confess a God. For to give him the Lie , is to deny his Perfection , that is , his Godhead . 3. Mark , that even culpable ignorance of other things unchurcheth not . 4. And yet all this denoteth but a corrupt and wicked member of their holy Church , which ( if such ) cannot be saved . 5. And with this chat the man thinks he hath done his business . And doubtless there are some so ignorant as to believe him . But all this wants but two things to make it just the true Christian faith : One is to name those Particulars essential to Christianity which must be believed : The other is to distinguish between a sound and serious practical belief , and a dead opinion or profession : And to conclude that the sincere practical belief constituteth invisible justified members , and the profession maketh only visible ones . Next he hath another bout against Omne animal vivit , the question was whether to know this , be to know that W. I. Bucephalus , a Phoenix , or an Unicorn liveth ? I say , No : because it may stand with the ignorance that ever there was or will be such an Animal as is called W. I. or any of the rest . But he makes all good on his side by talking of Impossibilities and such-like words , which are of the same use in respect to our arguments , that Drums in an Army are to drown the groans of dying men , and put courage into the Soldiers . He saith , When Philosophers say , Omne animal vivit , they mean it of the essence or notion of Animal to be a living thing ; and this is true of me and all particulars , whether we be in actual existence or not . Is not here excellent Philosophy ! It 's very true that this is a true Proposition , Omne animal vivit , whether VV. I. exist or not . But is this true of VV. I. and all particulars , VVhether they exist or not ? That which existeth not , is nothing , neither VV. I. nor any particular . The sum is then , Nothing is a living thing , or animal . There is a VV. I. and all particulars , which are all nothing , and yet are animals , or live . Who would not turn Papist , and run into a Nunnery that is but charmed with such Philosophy ? Next , pag , 15. he saith , That how much must be believed explicitely , is a dispute among Divines , not necessary to be determined here ; yet I will say something to that presently . Ans. I warrant you , nothing is necessary to you to do , which you cannot do without coming into the light . It 's a dispute among the Papists Divines what a Christian is , or what Christianity is ? And yet they have an Infallible Judg of all the Scripture , and all Controversies . And yet they can tell that Protestants are Hereticks . And yet they can tell who are members of their Church though it be a dispute among Divines . But mark , that this is not then with them de fide , any point of faith ( what a Christian is , or what must be believed ) : For their Divines dispute not that which they take to be de fide . I told him that a man may believe that the Bible is true , and Gods word , and yet not know a word that is in it , or that Christ is the Messias , or that there was ever such a person . He answereth that , This is morally impossible : For either such a person believes the Bible rashly and imprudently , and then ( according to all Divines ) his faith cannot be supernatural and divine , or sufficient to constitute him a Christian ; or he believeth it prudently by , prudential motives of credibility . — Now that can be no other than the authority of the Catholick Church , which he cannot be ignorant to profess the faith of Christ , there being no other save that ; though he know not by experience that Christ is mentioned in the Bible , he cannot but know that he is professed to be the Son of God , and Saviour of the world by those of the Catholick Church , who delivered the Bible to him as the word of God , and that such a faith is necessary to Salvation . Ans. Here are many things worthy our consideration . 1. That a man is not a member of the Church that is , a Christian , unless his faith be supernatural and divine , not only in the object , but his act : And surely no man knoweth what other mans act of faith is supernatural and divine : Therefore no man knoweth who is a Christian , and so their Church is still invisible . 2. No man that believeth the Bible rashly and imprudently is a Christian : And no man knoweth whether another believe it not rashly and imprudently , ( yea whether he believe it at all : ) Therefore no man knoweth who is a Christian , or member of the Church of Rome . 3. No other motive than the authority of the Catholick Church , can serve to free a man from this rashness , imprudence and nullity of his Christianity . 1. But why then had we not this General , The Church Catholick is to be believed , and the Scripture to be received only by its authority , before , in the description of implicite or explicite faith ? 2. Was that man no Christian in the Primitive times who was converted by a single Apostle , and took not the faith on the authority of the Catholick Church ? Did the Eunuch converted by Philip , Act. 8. or the Jaylor and Lydia converted by Paul , Act. 16. or the 3000 converted by Peter , Act. 2. receive faith on the authority of the Catholick Church ? Or the Indians when converted by Frumentius and Edesus ? or the Abassian Empire that till lately knew nothing of the Pope and his pretensions ? Or do we read that the Apostles did use that argument , The authority of the Catholick Church , to convert their hearers ? or that they always first told them of the authority of such a Church ? If by the Church you mean any single Apostle or Teacher , hold to that , and we shall do well enough with you . 3. But Authority is an ambiguous word , and may deceive . We maintain that a preserving and teaching ministerial authority , is usually needful to mens conversion to the faith , though not absolutely necessary to be first believed by the hearer : But a judging authority , ( viz. Whether there be a God , a Christ , a Scripture , a Heaven , &c. or not ) which determineth by a sentence , rather than teacheth by opening that evidence which caused belief in the Teacher himself ) this is not necessary to mans faith . 4. And what if a man should hear a Preacher open the other reasons of Christianity without talking of the Catholick Church , and its authority , and should hereupon believe ? or should believe by the bare reading of a Bible ? how prove you that this man is no Christian , nor shall be saved ? when Christ saith , He that believeth shall be saved , and shall not perish ; and saith not , He that believeth on any other motive than the authority of the Catholick Church ( and that must be the Romans ) believeth rashly and impudently and shall perish ? 4. But it 's well worth the enquiry , could we possibly find it out , what he meaneth by knowing the Church , and its profession , and its authority , and whether this be an act of necessary faith before any thing else can be believed ? Or what other points of faith are contained in our belief of this Church and its authority ? And what is the foundation of this faith ? It seems that he supposeth that the Church must be known before that the Christian faith be believed : And that in knowing the Church we must know the faith of the Church . It is one thing to know that they are a company of men called the Christian Church ; and another thing to know what a Christian Church is ; and another thing to know that this company of men is that Church : Must all these be known before we can believe ? or but one , or two ? and which ? 1. If the name were enough , a man may know that a company of men are called Christians , ( or Mahumetanes ) who knoweth not at all what Christianity ( or Mahumetanism ) is . You say , that it must be known that they profess to trust in Christ : this they may do and not know who Christ is , whether God or man , or what he hath done , or will do for us . If you say , that they must know that they profess that Christ is the Saviour , so they may do , and yet not know what the word Saviour signifieth , or what Christ ever did or will do for our Salvation . 2. But if he mean here that every one that will believe Gods Word , must first know the Church as defined , or know it in all its essence ; then 1. How few will he be able to prove to be Christians ? And how will he know who they are ? 2. And still the question recurreth , what is it that must be particularly believed to essentiate the Church ? For if he know not that , he cannot know that he knoweth what the Church is . 3. And when that is done , it seems he must know which is that Church considered in existence , as different from all Heresies , and other Societies . But by this method our difficulties are multiplied . 1. How shall I be sure that this Church doth not deceive me , in saying that this and not that is Gods Word ? Is this by an act of knowledg , or of divine faith ? If of knowledg , what evidences prove it ? If of faith , then I must believe God before I can believe him ? that is , I must believe that this is his Revelation and true , that the Roman-Catholick Church cannot or doth not err in telling me what is Gods Revelation , before I can know or believe any of his Revelation . If they mean that this act of faith must go first , before I can have any other , why may I not know and believe other articles of faith without the divine belief of the Churches authority or infallibility , as I may believe this one , God hath revealed that the Church is infallible or true in telling me what I must believe . If one Article may be believed without that motive ( and sure it is not believed before it is believed ) why not others as well as that ? 3. And which way , or by what Revelation did God confer this Infallibility on the Church ? If by Scripture it is supposed that yet you know not what is in the Scripture , or believe it not to be true , till you have first believed the Churches Veracity . Therefore it cannot be that way : If by verbal tradition , it is equally supposed that you know not that Tradition to be Gods word and true , before you know the Churches Veracity that tells you so . So that the Question , How I must believe the Churches Veracity herein ? by what divine revelation ( before I can believe any other revelation ) ? is still unanswered , and answerable only by palpable contradiction . But ( were it not for interpreting him contrary to his company ) I should by his words here judg that it is no Divine faith of the Churches Veracity , which he maketh pre-requisite to all other acts of faith ; but it is Prudential motives of cre●…bility , which must draw him to afford credit to that authority as derived from God , which commends to him the Bible as the word of God : now that can be no other than the Authority of the Catholick Church . Ans. Mark Reader , It can be no other than the authority of the Church which must be the prudential motive to credit the authority of the Church as derived from God. So the Churches Authority must be first credited , that he may credit it ; or else the Authority not credited must move him to credit it ; which is all contradiction , unless he mean that the Churches Authority credited by a humane faith , or by some notifying or conjectural evidences , besides divine revelation , must move him to believe that it is authorized by God. When they have told us , whether that first credit given to the Church , have any certainty for its object , and also what and whence that certainty is , we shall know what to say to them . Knot against Chillingworth is fain tosay , That it is the Churches own Miracles , by which it is known to have divine authority , before we can believe any word of God. And so no man can be sure that Gods word is his word , and true , till he be first sure that the Church of Rome hath wrought such miracles as prove its veracity as from God ; which will require in the Catechumene so much acquaintance with Historical Legends ( which the more he reads them , the less he will believe them ) as will make it a far longer and more uncertain way to become a Christian , than better Teachers have of old made use of . And 2. it seems , when all is done , that he taketh this Authority of the Church but for a prudential motive . But is it certain or uncertain ? If uncertain , so will all be that 's built upon it . If certain , again tell us by what ascertaining evidence ? Reader , it is the crooked ways into which byassing-interest hath tempted these men to lead poor souls , which are thus perplexing and confounding . How plain and sure a way God hath prescribed us , I have told you in a small Tractate called The Certainty of Christianity without Popery . In short , it is possible if a man never hear but one Sermon ( which mentioneth not the authority of the Church ) or find a Bible on the high-way and read it , that he may see that evidence in it that may perswade him savingly to believe ( through grace ) that it truly affirmeth it self to be the word of God. But the ordinary method for most rational certainty is , To have first Historical ascertaining evidence of the matter of fact , viz. that This Book was indeed written , and these miracles and other things done as it affirmeth . Or first perhaps , That this Baptismal Covenant , Lords Prayer , Creed , and Decalogue , have been delivered down from the first witnesses of Christ , and Miracles wrought to confirm the Gospel , which is also written at large in that Book . This we have far greater Historical Certainty of , than the pretended authority of a judging-Church of Rome ; even the infallible testimony of all the Churches in the world ; and as to the essentials ( Baptism , the Creed , &c. ) of Hereticks , Infidels , and Heathens , which I have opened at large in a Book called , The Reasons of Christian Religion , and another called The Unreasonableness of Infidelity , and in other writings . And the matter of fact with the Book being thus certainly brought down to us ( as the Statutes of the Land are ) we then know the Gospel and that Book to be of God , by all those evidences which in the foresaid Treatises I have opened at large ( and more briefly in a Treatise called The Life of Faith ) the sum of which is the Holy Spirit as Christs Agent , Advocate , and Witness , in his Works of Divine Power , Wisdom , and Goodness , or Love , printed first on Christ himself , his Life and Doctrine , and then on the Apostles their Works and Doctrine , and then on all sanctified believers in all ages , and especially on our selves ( besides his antecedent prophesies ) . Pag. 16. He again pretendeth that he need not name the necessary , Articles of Faith , because I my self say , They must be the Essentials ; and it is supposed I understand my own terms . Ans. A candid Disputant ! The light followeth him while he flyeth from it . Doth it follow that if I know my own meaning , I therefore know yours ? and if I know which are the essentials , that therefore you know them , and are of the same mind . Pag. 17. The man would make me believe , that I speak not true divinity , when I say that Divine and Humane Faith may be conjunct , when the testimonies are so conjunct , as that we are sure that it is God that speaks by man , who is therefore credible , because God infallibly guideth and inspireth him . He would make you believe that I am singular and erroneous here : Ans. And why ? He saith , that would make Christian faith partly humane . But 1. when I talk but of two faiths conjunct , what if I called the former divine faith , only the Christian faith ? May not a humane yet be conjunct with the Christian ? 2. But words must be examined . If Christian faith be so called from the Object , then Christ and not his Apostles , are the reason of the name materially ; we are called Christians for believing in Christ , and not for believing in them . 2. If Christian faith were taken subjectively it is humane faith , for men are the subjects of it . 3. If Christian faith be denominated from the prime or second efficient of the revelation , it is the belief of God , and of Christ as Mediator , and not of the Apostles : and so Gods own Veracity , and not mans , is the objectum formale , fidei divinae . 4. But why may not a subordinate humane faith be conjoined with this , and so we believe Christ to be the Messiah at once ; 1. By the testimony of God , 2. Of Christ as man 3. And of the Prophets and Apostles ? 1. Did not the union of the Divine nature with the humane , make Christ as man to be credible ? If so , why should we not believe him ? 2. Did not the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost , and divine inspiration joined to it , make the Apostles and Prophets credible persons ? If so , why should we not believe them ? 3. Did not the Miracles which they wrought , render the persons and their testimonies credible , together with the circumstances of their being eye-witnesses , and such-like ? 4. Is not every honest man credible according to the measure of his skill and honesty ? 5. Doth not every man know that there may be many efficient causes conjoined in producing one effect ? May not faith now be wrought by the Preachers word and Spirit ? Why else doth Christ say to Paul , Acts 26. 17 , 18 , I send thee to open their eyes , and turn them , &c. And Paul directeth Timothy to save himself and those that hear him . Why may not believing God , believing Christ as man , and believing Peter and Iohn , &c. that saw him risen , be conjunct causes of our faith in Christs Resurrection ? If they might not produce one faith , at least they might produce three faiths united by conjunction . But would one ever have expected this from a Jesuit or Roman Priest ? Remember , Reader , that Divine belief , and a belief of the Church , Council , Pope , or Priest , are not to be taken for conjunct causes of our believing the Gospel , or Christian faith , in this mans opinion . But he saith , Though the Prophet be a humane person , yet he speaks when he is inspired by God , not by humane , but divine authority , God speaking by his mouth . Ans. It is Veracity that is the thing that we now speak of , and is the authority in question . And doth not Gods Veracity give Veracity to the Speaker , and use it ? Doth God speak by Prophets and Christs Humanity , as through an inanimate Pipe or Whistle , or as by Balaam's asse ? Doth he make no use of the reason and honesty of the speaker ? nor make them more knowing , and more honest , true and careful , that they may be the fitter to be believed ? Is this Roman Divinity ? Why then do the Apostles so oft protest that they speak the truth and lye not , even of that which they had seen and heard ? Would the Gospel have been equally credible to us , if all the witnesses had in other matters been knaves and lyars ? 2. Reader , judg whether those that accuse the Roman Clergy of Fanaticism and Enthusiasm , do them any wrong , while they think that God maketh them infallible by such inspiration , as maketh no use of their Reason , Learning , or Honesty . And read but what their own Historians say of Fifty Popes together , besides all the rest , and of the Ninth and Tenth Centuries of the Church , and of the Popes that were lads , and could not read Mass , but were illiterate . Read what their Councils have said of some whom they deposed as inhuman Monsters , and judg whether it be easie to believe that any inspiration used those men as infallible deliverers of that Christian faith ; and see here why it is that they think wit and honesty no more necessary in Pope or Councils , if God use them but as an organ-pipe or trumpet . Pag. 18. When he is urged to tell me , what it is that is the necessary belief of their Church , which must make a man a member of it : he again bids me tell him what points I make essential to a Christian , and I shall save him the labour . Ans. And are we indeed agreed ? And yet do they writeso many Volumes to the contrary ? Reader , I take him at his word : I have said that it is . The belief and consent to the Baptismal Covenant , that is the constitutive essence of a Christian. Remember this when they jest at Fundamentals , and tell us of damnation if we believe not their Councils , and the Country-Priests that are the reporters of them . Remember now the extent of the Christian Church , that it reacheth to all that believe and consent to the Baptismal Covenant . But will these wavering men long stand to this , and confess their Sect to be but a fourth or third part of the Church ? But perhaps they will say . That words not understood are no true faith , we are yet to seek what believing in God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost do mean and comprehend . Answ. These ignorances or artifices have too long abused unstudied men . It is not now the unsearchable , truth of mens subjective faith or internal acts which we dispute of : But it is of necessary objective faith , or what ex parte objecti is essentially necessary to true subjective faith in case it be truly believed ( which God only can tell , ) And I say , 1. It is no meer words spoken more or less which can prove to another the sincerity of the speakers belief of them . 2. But the words of the Baptismal Profession and Covenant if sincerely believed , contain all essential to the Christian faith . 3. And for more or fewer words , I say , that the more understanding any man hath , the more fully and easily he may understand the sense of those words , though general and few ; but to an ignorant person there must be many words and oft repeated to make him understand the same thing which the other doth by these few . And must we therefore have as many symbols of Christianity as there are various degrees of Understandings ? 4. And the Church hath in its best times taken up with the Creed as the Exposition of the Baptismal faith ; and if it now contain any words more than essential , that crosseth not its use , which was to be a just and satisfactory Explication of that Baptismal faith , which had nothing but the Essentials . And accordingly till faith and piety degenerated into opinion and tyranny , Baptized persons were accounted Christians and members of the Catholick Church , and as obliged to live as Christs Disciples in love to one another ; it being none but Christ himself who instituted Baptism as our Christening , to be the symbol and badg of his Disciples . Pag. 19. When I had prest him to a particular answer , and told him what would follow upon the Answers which I supposed he might make , he tells me that Divines have a hundred times told us that some things must be believed necessitate praecepti , and some things necessitate medii . Ans. We have heard some things , some things so oft , that we would fain know what things at last , are necessary ut media ? Reader , if these Writers must not be ashamed of their tergiversation , what sort of Disputants should blush ? would you think after all this , what his answer is ? You shall have it in his own words : And know you not that Divines are divided what are the points necessary to be believed explicitely necessitate medii ? Some , and those the more ancient , hold that the explicite belief of God , of the whole Trinity , of Christ , his Passion , Resurrection , &c. are necessary necessitate medii . Others among the Recentiors , that no more than the belief of the Deity , and that he is a rewarder of our works , is absolutely necessary with that necessity to be explicitely believed . Now to answer your Question , what it is whereby our Church-members are known ? I answer , that 1. All those who are baptized and believe all the points of our faith explicitely , ( if any such are to be found ) are undoubted members of our Church . 2. All those who believe explicitely all the Artiales whatever belongs to them in particular , by reason of their respective offices in the Church . 3. Those who so believe all things necessary , necessitate medii , or necessitate praecepti extended to all adulti . 4 , All those who believe in that manner all things held necessary necessitate medii according to the first opinion of the more ancient Doctors . 5. It is probable , though not altogether so certain as the former , that such as believe explicitely the Deity , and that he is a rewarder of our works ? and the rest implicitely as contained in confuso in that , are parts of the Catholick Church ( Baptism supposed ) 〈◊〉 Now●… seeing all those in my four first Numbers ( which comprehend almost all Christians ) are certainly parts of the Catholick Church , we have a sufficient certainly of a determinate Church , consisting at least of these , by reason whereof our Church has a visible consistency , those of the fifth rank , though not so certain , not taking away the certainty of the former , — See you not by this Discourse that we answer sufficiently to your question by telling which are undoubted members . — Ans. Reader , how sad is the case of mankind , when such a talker as this shall go for a Champion , and prevail with silly souls in the matters of Salvation , against common reason , and the notices of Christianity ? Mark here , 1. He asketh me , Know you not that Divines are divided ? Yes , and I know how lamentably you have divided the Christian world . See , Reader , what is the unity and concord of the Church of Rome : Not only the Laity but their Divines are divided about the very essence of a Christian , and their Church . These are the men that cry up Unity as a mark of their Church , and cry out of us as Schismaticks , as if we were all crumbled into dust by Sects , because we differ about some small circumstances of Worship , or Exposition of some imposed words of men , or of some difficult point of no flat necessity . 2. Note here also the Infallibility of their Church , and what a priviledg they have in having a Iudg of Controversies ; While their Doctors are divided on the question , what a Christian is ? And Pope and Council dare not , or cannot , or will not determinate what maketh a Christian or member of their Church ? O happy infallible Judg of Controversies ! 3. Note also the extent of the Roman faith 〈◊〉 it is so big as that it and its circumstances fill large Volumes , called the Councils ; and yet it is no article of their faith , what Christianity is , or what must constitute a member of their Church , but this is left at liberty to disputes . 4. Note also the great partiality of the Papists . The Doctors may be divided about the essence of Christianity , and may deny faith in Christ to be particularly necessary to a Christian. But if a man believe not that Rome is the Mistris of all Churches and the Pope the Universal Governourr , and that there is no bread and wine in the Lords Supper , when the Priest hath consecrated , he is to be exterminated or burnt as a Heretick , and Princes deposed that will not execute it . 5. Note here , that here is not a word in all this of believing the Pope to be the Governour of all the Churches in the world . Either they take this to be essential to a member of their Church , or not , If they do , are they not juglers and ashamed of their faith , when they thus hide it ? If not what is become of their Sectarian Church , and all their accusations and condemnations of most of the Christian World , who believe no such office of the Pope ? And what a Society is that where the reception of the Pars Imperans is not necessary to every subject ? 6. Note here whether the Roman Religion be mutable or not ? and whether constancy be a note of their verity ? When he professeth that the ancient Doctors , and the Recentiors ( or Novelists ) do differ about the very essence of Christianity . Have these Recentiors antiquity to boast of ? 7. Note also from hence the validity of their common argument from Tradition , As if all their Church were now and always of one mind ! when at present they are divided about the essence of Christianity ; and the Recentiors forsake the Ancients . But had these Ancients Tradition for their opinion or not ? If they had , how come the Recentiors to forsake it ? If not , what an insufficient thing is your Tradition , that hath not told you what a Christian or Church-member is ? And yet we must take this Tradition as sufficient to tell us what orders and ceremonies Peter setled at Rome . 8. I pray you note , that even their ancient Doctors opinion ( which is all that must keep his cause from utter shame ) he durst not describe in answer to my question ; but having named five words , God , the whole Trinity , Christ , his Passion , and Resurrection , he craftily shuts it up with an E●… caetera ; so that if you suppose him to say that these five things are all that they require , he may deny it , because he added an &c. If you ask , what are the ●…est ? you , are where we begun , an &c. is all the answer . 9. Well , let us peruse his five particular sort of members distinctly , which make up their Church , and try 〈◊〉 be the m●…ey 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 or whether the Reader will not wonder that such trained disputers have no more to say , nor a more plausible sort of fraud to use . 1. His first sort of visible members are , All those that are baptized , and believe explicitely all the points of our faith ( if any such are to be found . ) Ans. Is not this a modest Parenthesis ? whether any such are to be found , he seemeth uncertain ; and yet saith , These are the undoubted members of our Church . The undoubted members ! when he doubteth himself whether any such are to be found ? And can we find the Church by them then ? And no wonder that they are not to be found ; for note , Reader , that he never tells you here yet at all , what the faith of their Church is , but only that if any have it all , they are Christians . Is this a satisfactory answering ? And yet if you will know the truth from their common writings , the faith of their Church containeth these great bodies : 1. All that is in the holy Scripture and the Apocrypha . 2. All the Decrees of their General Councils ( if not also the Provincials and Popes Decretals ) that are de fide . 3. All their unwritten Traditions de fide , which they have yet to bring forth as need requireth . And do you not approve his modesty that saith , If any such be found that believeth all this . 2. The second sort of their Church-members are , All who believe explicitely all Articles , and whatever belongs to them in particular , by reason of their respective offices . Ans. But he tells you not a word what Articles these be , nor what belongeth to their Offices ; whether it be all the Articles of all the Creeds , or also of their Councils , Decrees , or when it shall be known what is necessary to be believed about their office . And is here any notice how to know a member of their Church any more than in the former ? He that believeth all that he should believe is a Christian ; But is there any such ? and what is that all ? and how shall we know them ? 3. His third sort of members are , Those who so believe all things necessary necessitate medii vel praecepti , extended to all the adult . Ans. And what 's this but the same again ? we know none but the adult that are to believe . And so here we are told , That all men that believe all things commanded are Christians . We were told this before : But it was with , If any such are to be found . And who knows by this what your All is ? When we find men that do all commanded and sin not , we will hope to find men that know all revealed , and have no ignorance ; yet here is no visible Church . 4. His fourth sort are , All those who believe in that manner all things necessary necessitate medii , according to the first opinion of the more ancient Doctors . But what those things are , we are not yet told , but five words set down with an &c. And is here yet a word to satisfie any man of reason what their faith is , or what Christianity is , or what maketh a member of their Church , or is the bond of union ? But Reader , hath God left us so much in the dark ? Is Christianity any thing or nothing ? If something , hath it not an essence which may be defined ? Is this all our notice of it . That men that know all that God hath reveal'd , and believe it , are Christians ? or such as believe five Articles , & caetera ? Judge now whether their Church be not invisible . And if any little part of it were visible , what 's that to the rest ? or to that visibility of particular members ? He tells us these are almost all Christians ; and yet questioned whether any of the first be found ; and the rest are no more to be found than they . 5. And his fifth sort he confesseth himself to be uncertain , which yet it s doubted are no small part that go for Papists . And note , I pray you , that it is the present Church which they use to approach to for necessary resolution ; and the Recentiors are more the present Church than the Ancients . And according to these , 1. Their Church is confessedly doubtful or unknown as to most or multitudes of members . 2. And note ; that their Articles being but two , That God is , and that he rewardeth works , all the common Heathens of the world , and all the Mahometans , are of the Papists Faith and Church , according to this opinion . 3. But mark , Reader , another desperate corruption , That Baptism must concur with these two articles . O horrid corruption of Christianity it self ! Is this antiquity and tradition ? Did the Christian Church use to baptize men that believed neither in Jesus Christ nor the Holy Ghost , if they did but believe a God and a Rewarder ? Do you baptize such in your Church ? I suppose even Pope Stephen himself would have been for the re-baptining of such . Reader , if one of us had charged such doctrine on the Papists as this their Champion doth , should we not have been thought to slander them ? viz. That their later Doctors hold that all that believe explicitely but a God and a Rewarder , and are baptized , are members of the Church of Rome ; and consequently , that all that believe but this much , should be baptized ; that is all the Mahometans , and almost all the Heathens in the world : And is Baptism and the Creed come to this ? But I confess if the world were perswaded of this , the Pope could make his use of it : For when he is once taken for Governour of all the Church on earth , if he can but prove all the world to be the Church , it followeth that he is Governour of all the world . And what need they now their feigned embassies and submissions to prove the Abassines , Armenians , and Greeks to be of their Church , when Heathens and Mahometans are proved of it ? and yet are Protestants no part . He tells us , That a living body may be defined by head , shoulders , arms , though there be a doubt among Philosophers , whether hair , humours , &c. be animated or parts . Ans. But 1. it is known then that there is visibly head and shoulders , &c. But you tell us not how to know any individual persons to be visible members of your Church . To tell us that there are some men that hold all that they are bound to hold , maketh none visible , while we are not told either what they are bound to believe , or by what profession or proof it must be known that they do so . When we tell you that sincere justifying faith and love do prove true Christians , and that such there are , it 's agreed that this proveth but a Church as invisible or unknown to us , because we know not who have this sincerity . So is it when you tell us that there are men that believe all that 's necessary ; for till it be known what that is , no profession can thereby prove them Christians . 2. But what if you had told us how to know those men that are certain or eminent members of your Church ? Is it nothing to you to leave all the world besides , almost , uncertain whether they be in the Church or not ? How know you whom to admit to your Sacramental Communion , or to use as a Christian ? When a Congregation of many thousand persons called Papists meet , you cannot tell how many of these are of your Church , and yet you give them the Eucharist ? And it seemeth by you that they must be Baptized , though you know not after whether they be members of the Church . Remember , Reader , that our question is not what mercy God sheweth to the rest of the world , nor whether any out of the Christian Church be saved ? But it is , what is the faith which is essential to a member of the Christian Church ? and whether Papists make it not uncertain ? and whether he that believeth only that there is a God that rewardeth , and believeth not in Christ , or the Holy Ghost , be a member of the Christian Church , or should be baptized . My third Question about his definition of the Church was , Is it [ any ] lawful Pastors , or [ all ] that must necessarily be depended on by every member ? who are those Pastors ? To this he said , Of all respectively to each subject ; that is , that the authority of none of them , mediate or immediate , be rejected or contemned . I shewed him how he contradicteth himself ; for dependance is more than non-rejection : and Millions of Heathens neither depend on the Pope or reject him , that never heard of him . To this he rejoineth , that he spake of subjects only , and not of others . Ans. 1. But we are never the nearer knowing their Church by this , while we are not told who the subjects are , and what maketh a visible subject ? 2. Do not they take all Infidels and Heathens , and the Christian Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , Protestants , &c. to be subjects of the Pope , as to obligation and right , though not consent ? yet the Abassines neither obeyed the Pope , nor rejected him till Oviedo was sent to them . 3. For about forty or fifty years one part of Europe took one man for Pope , and the rest took another man for Pope , and men were uncertain which was the right , or whether either of them , and so of the Clergy authorized by them . Which was the Church then , and who were the members , when Millions received one , and Millions rejected him ? and many neither received nor rejected , but remained in suspense ? 4. And if all the Priests should desert a Country ( as Ireland , Me●…co , or our Wales , or Highlands ) are all the people thereby unchristened or unchurched , while they have no Priest either to receive or reject , and perhaps hear not of a Pope . But I specially answered him , That this maketh every Priest so essential to that Church , that a man is unchurched that rejecteth or contemneth any one of them , though he should ●…onour the Pope , Councils , and thousands others : If a man take a Priest in such a crime , as Watson , Montaltus and others tell us of , is contemning him an unchristening of us ? Yea , if it be done causelessly upon a quarrel ? This is a notable advancement of the Clergy . If contempt of one Priest be damnation or unchristening us , he that can make Priests for all the world , may well be Lord of all the world , even of Princes as well as other men . To this he rejoineth , that by the word respectively he did not mean all Priests , but all that are Pastors to that man ; for there are some Priests that have no care or cure of souls committed to them ; but a private Christian rejecting the authority of his Parish-Priest , Bishop , Archbishop , Metropolitan , Primate , Patriarch , or supreme Bishop , becomes a Schismatick , and casts himself out of the Church . Ans. 1. He is a strange Priest that hath no Cure of Souls , what then is his office ? If he be not affixed to a particular charge , sure he hath an indefinite cure of Souls in the Church Universal . 2. Then one of the next Parish may take our Parish-Priest and all the Parish-Priests in the Country save his own , for Hereticks , Fornicators , Traytors , and such as must be rejected , and yet be no Schismatick but a Church-member : But if I reverence all other Priests , and take our own Parish-Priest for an ignorant sot , or a knave , or a wicked man , and contem●… him , I am cut off from the Church . This tells us more reason than I knew of before , for our Canon against going from our own Parish-Churches when we have no Preacher there And this ells me how great the power of Patrons is , who can make an ignorant wicked man so absolute a Lord of all his Parishioners , though they be the greatest Lords , that to contemn him shall cost them their damnation . And this tells me more than I knew before , that the Roman Clergy do not plead for the Pope for his sake only , but for their own ; if all men be in as much danger of damnation or unchurching for rejecting any Parish-Priest , as for rejecting the Pope . And this tells me more than I knew before of the great Pre-eminence of the Secular Clergy ( as they call them ) above the Regulars , and how low comparatively the Jesuits and Friers are , when it will cut a man off from the Church to contemn one sottish drunken Curate , or Parish-Priest that can but read Mass , and to contemn ten thousand Friers and Jesuits will not do so ? And this tells us of how great concernment Parish-bounds are , and what a priviledg it is to remove ones dwelling : For if I will but remove my dwelling one yard out of the Parish , I may then contemn the Parish-Priest without being unchurched , which on the other side the way I could not do . And this 〈◊〉 us why the Clergy are exempt so much from Princes and Magistrates judgment . It may cut off a Prince from the Church to contemn his Priest , ( whether to hang him if he prove a Traytor , be contempt I know not . ) Many such lessons may be hence learnt . 3. But how came Cyprian then so much mistaken , that said , Plebs maximam ●…abet potestatem — sacerdotes indignos recusandi ? And how came all the ancient Churches to use that freedom in consenting or di●…enting , electing or rejecting their Bishops and Priests , which Blonde●… hath copiously proved , pro sentent . Hi●…ron . & de jure plebis in regim . Eccles. 4. And what a priviledg hath the Pope or a Patriarch above an inferiour Christian ? when he may reject a ●…housand Priests , or Interdict whole Kingdoms , or reject most Christian Churches and Pastors in the world ▪ as being none of Christs , and yet not be himself cut off for so doing ; whereas one that falls out with his P●…rish-priest and rejecteth him alone ▪ is presen●…ly ●…o member of the Universal Church ? It seems that God punisheth not men according to the greatness of their sin ; for sure it is a greater sin unjustly to reject ten thousand Priests ▪ than one . Or to contemn all other Priests in the Country , mistaking them all for Hereticks , Usurpers , or in●…ollerable , than so to do by one Parish-priest only . 5. How many Millions then that seem to be of the Church of Rome are not so ; because they contemn the authority of their Parish-priest ? 6. But what is the proof of this assertion ? None at all ▪ In other Societies no Union is essential to a member but that which is with the Pars Imperans , or supreme power , and with the body . A man that rejecteth a Justice , or the Mayor of a City , or the Master of a Colledg or School , &c. may be yet a subject , and a member of the Kingdom while he rejecteth not the King , though he be faulty , and be cut off from the City , Colledg or School . And I think that to reject a Parish-priest that ought to be so rejected , is well done : and if he ought not , it 's ill done . And that he that separateth from that Parish-Church , may yet be 〈◊〉 member of the Church Universal , while he separateth not from it . But I see that Guiliel ▪ de Sancto Amore , and such others , had greater reason to condemn the Friers ; and Watson , and such others , the Jesuits , than we knew of . I noted also the difficulty ▪ How we shall know the Authority of every Parish-Priest , Bishop ▪ Archbishop , Patriarch , and Pope . And 1. in a Country where Orders have ordinarily been forged . To this he answered , As much as you can be assured of any being Pastor of such a Church , or Bishop , or Iustice , &c. A●…s . 1. If you prove it a duty to believe and obey every such deceiver that hath no authority , we will not believe till you prove it , that to do otherwise doth unchurch us . 2. And if two or three claim authority over us at once ( as they did in the Papacy about forty years together ) are we cut off from Christ if we receive not both ? or how shall we know which ▪ If either will serve , then they that took Iohn of Constantinople for Universal Bishop , were as much in the Church , as they that received Pope Boniface as such . And they that followed Dioscorus at Alexandria ( being Orthodox ) , as they that adhered to Proterius ? &c. Is it no matter who it be , so we think him to be the right ? Why then do you deny our English Clergy , when we judg them to have the true authority ? 2. I asked , What if we be ignorant whether the ordainer had intentionem ordinandi , how shall we be sure of the authority of the Ordained ? He answered , As sure as you can be that you were the lawful child of your parents who could not be truly married without intention . Ans. This is new Doctrine ; they that speak the words and do the actions which properly signifie a true intention , and do profess it , do thereby mutually oblige themselves in the relation of husband and wife to each other ; and they that truly so oblige themselves , are truly ( though sinfully ) married : For what is Marriage , but such a mutual obliging contract ; they are truly my parents , and I owe them obedience whatever their intention was . But you hold a man to be no Priest that was not ordained ex ●…entione ordinandi , and our Salvation to lie on our obeying him as a Priest who is none . My fourth Question was , How the people that dwell in other Countrys can know whether the Priest , Prelate , or Pope , had necessary Election and Ordination . To which he saith , W●…en it is publickly allowed in the Church , witnessed to be performed according to Canonical prescription , by those that were present , and derived to the people without contradiction by publick fame . Ans. 1. This alloweth the Ministry in Ethiopia , Armenia , Moscovie , Gr●…ece , as much as the Roman : For it is publickly allowed and attested , and brought to the people by uncontradicted fame . And so is the Ministry of the Reformed Churches to all that hear not your contradiction . 2 But with Rome the case is otherwise , one part of the Church hath publickly allowed one Pope and all his Clergy , and another part rejected him , and allowed another and his Clergy ▪ and publick fame hath contradicted one party . 3. And what can fame say to us in England of the Election or Ordination made at Rome , of a Pope , Prelate , or Parish-priest , when we hear not any witness of it ? 4. And how can we expect contradiction of an action done a thousand miles off , which none near knew of ? 5. And yet how few Priests or Prelates are they whose authority fame publisheth without contradiction ? Do not Protestants contradict the authority of your Priests , and most of the Christian World the authority of your Pope ? My fifth Question was , If you tell me your own opinion of the sufficient means to know the Popes or Priests authority , how shall I know that you are not deceived , unless a Council bad desined it . sufficient ? To this he saith , That the orders prescribed in the Canon Law , and universally received , are sufficient for this , without Decrees of General Councils : for they are no points of faith but of order and discipline , whereof a moral certainty and Ecclesiastical authority are sufficient . Ans. 1. Is this moral certainty , true certaints , or uncertainty ? If true certainty , it hath its moral ascertaining evidences . And what are those ? 2. Who is the maker of this Canon Law ? If not General Councils , how shall we know their authority ? If the Pope and Cardinals , how shall we know whether those of e. g. Stephen , Sergius , or Formosus , be the authentick ones ? and so of many other contradictory ones ? If a General Council damn and depose , e. g. Eugenius the fourth as a Heretick , &c. and he make Canons after , how shall we know that they are authoritative ? 3. But are your matters of order and discipline no matters of faith ? Then God hath not bound us to believe that the Pope is the Universal Bishop or Pastor , or that Rome hath any authority over the world , or other Christian Churches ; or that your Priests are the true Ministers of Christ , and have any authority over us ; or that the Mass is to be celebrated , &c. But either these are matters of Divine or Humane Law. If man only command them , how cometh our Christianity and Salvation to be laid on them ? What man commands , man may abrogate , unless extrinsick accidents hinder . If God command them , doth God command any thing which he binds us not to believe to be our duty ? Many things may be de fide , revealed , which are not de moribus , nor to be done ; but nothing is by God commanded to be done , which is not first to be known or believed to be duty . 4. If it be no matter of faith , how to know that your Elections and Ordinations are true ; then it is no matter of faith that you are true Pastors , or have any authority ( because without true Election and Ordination , it is not so ; and if so , then it 's no heresie to believe that you are all deceivers . 5. Your Authority ( or Decrees ) below that of Pope and General Councils , pretend to no Infallible certainty : upon this it seems your Church is built , and into uncertainty its authority resolved ; and yet from this we must fetch our certainty of the Gospel in your way . And is not the Gospel then made uncertain by you , which must be believed on the authority of an uncertain Ministry ? yea , and are not Councils uncertain which consist of such a Ministry ? 6. It 's a vanity to pretend that your Canon Law is universally received ; most of the Christian World receive but part of it , and much no part at all , unless you call the Scripture the Canon Law. 7. If your Canon Law be so universally received and sufficient , then when that Law is received into England , England must be burnt as a land of Hereticks ; for that 's part of your Law ; and so your Ministry and our burning as Hereticks , have the same authority . My next Question was , If I culpably were ignorant but of some few Priests authority among thousands , am I cut off from all the rest , and the Church ? His answer is , It is not all Priests , but all Pastors in relation to their flocks . Ans. 1. But if my Parish-priest be but one of twenty or an hundred thousand , doth my culpable ignorance of his authority cut me off from all the Church ? It may be I believe Pope Nicolas Decrees , that a man must not hear Mass of a Priest that hath a Concubine ? Or that a Simonical Pope or Bishop is no true Pope or Bishop . 2. And remember , that my Parish-Priest , and my Bishop , Metropolitan , Patriarch and Pope , can never make a General Council : Either I may be safely ignorant of the Priesthood of all the rest in such a Council , or not : If not , then I must know the certain Priesthood of all others as well as of my own Pastors , contrary to what you say ; If yea , then I have no certainty of the Priestly authority of Councils . I next argued , That it is not the rejecting of a Constables authority which maketh him no subject th●… owns the Soveraign . To this he rejoineth , That yet if I reject the Constable , and with him all superior Magistrates , and at last the Sovereign , I am a rebell . And so if I reject the authority first of a Parish-priest , and then the Bishop of the Diocess , and after of all his Superiors to the highest , I am a rebel to the visible Church , and cast out , and reject Christs authority . Ans. 1. Do you see what all our dispute is come to at last ? All this while it was the rejecting of any one Pastor that cut us off ; and now it is the rejecting of him and all above him to the bighest , Is it not lost labour to dispute with these men ? 2. When you have proved that Christ hath such a thing as you call the visible Church , that is , all the world obliged to obey any one man or Governour besides Christ , ( when he is naturally as uncapable of it , as of being the Universal Physician ) even at the Antipodes , and where he can never send , then we will take it for rebellion to reject that Head : Till then , we shall take it to be Treason against Christ to claim and own that which is his prerogative . How cometh it to pass that no one yet learned to call himself the Universal King of the Earth ? or the Universal Iudg , Physician , School-master , &c. as well as the Universal Priest and Teacher of Religion ? Next I craved his answer to much which I had written on this subject before in my Safe Relig. which he refuseth , and tells me , That I make a visible body with an invisible head to the Church , which Government is internal and invisible , abstracting from visible supreme authority . Ans. 1. Christ was seen on Earth . 2. He is seen in the Court of Heaven . 3. He hath left a visible Universal Law , by which he governeth . 4. He hath appointed visible Officers over the world ( though no Head ) which is the way that the Pope pretendeth to govern , ( even per alios , when he never sent to a quarter of the world ) . 5. His subjects are men visible , known by audible profession and visible worship . 6. He will visibly judg the world in Glory , and be seen by all his Church for ever . And when you prove that he hath a Church that is otherwise visible , we will hear you . They that assert an Anima Mundi , and they that think one Intelligence or Angel ruleth all the Earth , say that which is possible , though they can never prove it : But to talk of a Governour of all the World , that never heard who dwelleth on a third part of it , and that can get no Ships to sail about the Earth in many ages ; and when they do , come not near the hundredth part of the world , this is a prodigious claim for a waking man. My fourth Question about his definition of the Church was , Why exclude you the chief Pastors that depend on none ? He answereth , I include them , Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo unita . Ans. 1. But he had defined the Church as those that depend on the Pastors : which seemed to exclude the Popes that depend on none . 2. Hierome defineth a particular Church , and not the universal . 3. They oft call the Clergy the Church . He rejoineth , That Terms have different acceptions . Ans. But by all this ado I can have no reasonable satisfaction from you , what you mean by the Church , or what that Church is which you call us to unite with , and which you accuse us as separating from . We are like to dispute well with men that cannot or will not explain the terms of the question . CHAP. II. Of their sense of the Word HERESIE . W. J. HERESIE is an obstinate intellectual opposition against Divine Authority revealed , when it is sufficiently propounded . R. B. Q. 1. Is the obstinacy that maketh Heresie , in the Intellect or the will ? W. J. In the Will , by an imperate act restraining the understanding to that . R. B. Still your descriptions signifie just nothing ; you describe it to be an Intellectual Obstinate opposition , and now say that it is in the will. He replieth , that the error is in the Understanding , but the obstinacy in the Will. Ans. Indeed the obstinacy is in both , but radically in the Will ; but did Intellectual opposition notifie this ? R. B. And you contradict your self by saying that it is an imperate act . For no imperate act is in the will , but of or from the Will. The imperant act is in the Will ; but the imperate ( as Intelligere ) in the commanded faculty . To this he replieth , That 1. he meant not the act was in the Will , though he said it was an act of the Will. 2. That all Philosophers are against me , and say that the Will may command Charity and other acts in it self . Ans. 1. Who could conjecture that by an act of the Will , you meant not an act in the Will , but from it ? 2. It 's true that Volo velle is a proper speech , and one act of the Will may be the object of another ; and a good man willeth nothing more here than to will better ; and if you will call this commanding , I will not contend about the word : But certainly all these Volitions are such acts as they call elicite , which they usually distinguish from imperate ; and thus you confound them . Otherwise every act of the will which is willed by a former act should be called imperate , and so none but the first should be elicite ? And who knoweth when that first act was in being , seeing the will doth still will its own future action ? R. B. 2. I hence noted , that if wilful obstinacy be essential to Heresie , their Church cannot know a Heretick ( while they burn them ) : For they know not the heart ; and many that they burn , would take their oaths that they are not willing to err : He answereth , W. J. We enter not into mens hearts , that we leave to God : only the Church presumes such to be Hereticks as have Catholick truths sufficiently propounded to them , and yet contradict and oppose them ; let such be ready to swear what they will. R. B. 1. Note here that they burn men for Hereticks , and yet profess that Heresie is an obstinacy of the will , which they know not , but leave to God ; and only presume that men are Hereticks though they know it not . And so a presuming Clergy are masters of the Crowns of Kings , and the lives of all men . How excellently would this power have fitted the turn of Abab and Iezebel , and the murderers of Christ ? they need not have got false witness to condemn them as Blasphemers : A presuming Clergy might have served : For the very act which the Papists judg men for , is internal in the intellect and will , as Blasphemie is external . To condemn men for Blasphemy hath some reason of justice , because it may be proved ; but Intellectual obstinate opposition cannot . 2. He tells us now that Heresie is a contradicting Catholick Truths , but never tells what those Catholick Truths are ; Whether any one , or only some of the greater sort : and how we may know them . But it is sufficient that the presumers know . It is a Catholick Truth with them for which Bellarmine citeth many Councils , * That the Pope may excommunicate and depose Kings and Rulers : To oppose this now is Heresie : A Heretick must be burnt ! O happy Kings that have such a King over them , and such a presuming Clergy ! 3. But this Catholick Truth must be sufficiently proposed : That sufficiently is a doubtful dangerous word : who would think how much lieth on Grammatical learning ! The Pope and his Clergy are Masters of Kingdoms , and all mens estates and lives , by being the only judges of the meaning of this one word , SUFFICIENTLY ; either it is called sufficiently proposed , with respect to the proposer , ( as a Law is sufficiently promulgate ) when he hath done as much as he was bound to do : And then a lazie or a proud Priest will think that two words is sufficient to oblige mankind to renounce all their senses ( e. g. for Transubstantiation . ) And one that hath a Parish ten times greater than he can speak to , will think that he hath done his duty to all , when he hath spoken to as many as he could : yea indeed the Decree of a General Council Printed goeth for sufficient proposal to millions that cannot read , nor ever heard those Councils read . Or else it is called Sufficient with respect to the effect on the understanding of the hearer sufficient to convince him ; and it is supposed that it is not effectual : and what mortal man is able to judg of the sufficiency of proposal , respectively to all mens understandings ? some men have great natural dullness and slowness of conception , next to Ideots ; some by long disuse of such cogitations , hear all spiritual Doctrine as if it were spoken in an unknown tongue ; some cannot easily see the connexion of verities : And some of weak heads or memories cannot endure to think long enough of such matters , as to overcome the difficulties : And some think that they perceive such clear evidence for the contrary opinion , that it is not in their power to take it to be false . There is as great variety of receptive capacities , as there is of persons in the world . And the Priest knoweth not the internal case of another man : And therefore is here no sitter a judg of sufficiency to all other , than he is of their thoughts : They are like a man that had a writing in a Table-book to obliterate , and another to write in it in the dark , and would so judg that it was sufficiently done . And what is Sufficiency ? they will say , that which maketh conviction possible ; and so poor men that might but possibly have been convinced , must be burnt because it is not done . Is not this a notable way to save Parish-priests much labour ? If they have told thousands the truth once or so oft as might possibly have convinced them : burn them then to save him the labour of any longer preaching to them ; but who then shall pay him his Tythes ? There is remedy in that case , most , rather than be burned , will say what the Priest bids them , whether they understand him , or believe him or not , and then they are safe . But they will say perhaps , That that proposal is sufficient to convince men which were sufficient if they were not possessed with a blind zeal for their opinions , ( for that 's it that W. I. here lays it on . Ans. But is there any man that hath no error ? and must a man have no zeal for that which he judgeth truth : The sense of this is , that Proposal is sufficient to cure a man , which supposeth him to have no disease : If his mind and will have no sin in them to resist the truth , but a pure receptivity of any revealed truth , as Christ in his childhood , and Adam in innocency , then this proposal is sufficient ; But if he be not as white paper that hath nothing to be obliterated , but have any sinful opinion to resist the truth , than burn him for an Heretick : And are not the Papists merciful men that will burn none but sinners ? 4. But , Reader , if this definition of Heresie be not recanted , the number of Hereticks is very great . For by this all the Heathens and Infidels , Iews and Mahometans in the world are Hereticks , that believe not when the Gospel is sufficiently proposed to them . For here is no distinction nor exception : surely that Christ is the Son of God is a Catholick truth ; and so obstinate intellectual opposition to it is Heresie : But the old Doctors never said so , nor do the Papists ordinarily say so : nor do they burn all Infidels that will not turn Christians : whether it be because such are unwilling to be burned , and ten men can scarce burn ten thousand against their wills , I know not . But I suppose W. I. forgot here to put Baptized persons into his definition . And if he had , if all the Ianizaries be but baptized before the Turks take them from their parents , then they are Hereticks , and to be burnt it seems , or else not . But perhaps Apostates also should have been excepted . But there is no end of conjecturing at unexpressed meanings , or of amending other mens words . R. B. Q. 2. Must it needs be the formal object of faith ? Is he no Nere●…ick that denieth the matter revealed , without opposing obstinately the authority revealing ? ( For he defined it to be an opposition to Divine auth●…ity . W. J. Yes : nor is he a formal , but only a material heretick , who opposeth a revealed truth , which is not sufficiently propounded to him to be a Divine revelation . R. B. To this I answer , 1. His definition and his answer here are contradictory . 2. His addition solveth it not ; sufficient propounding it to be a Divine revelation , doth not infer that he taketh God for a lyar , but only that he culpably denieth this to be the Word of God. I answered therefore , That all men that believe a God , believe him to be true , and no lyar ; and so W. I. maketh none but Atheists to be Hereticks . To this he answereth : W. J. There is a twofold denying of God , one formal and direct , the other virtual and indirect : Atheists are guilty of the first , Hereticks of the second . — This I oblige my self to prove , — Whosoever obstinately contradicts any truth revealed from God , as all Hereticks do some or other of them , they sinfully and wilfully affirm that what God hath revealed is not true , and consequently that God is a lyar , and by that destroy as much as in them lieth the very essence of God. R. B. Here is little but novelty and deceit . 1. It is deceit to call that a denying of God , in a controversie of such moment ( whatever you might do rhetorically in an Oration ) which you confess your self is not a denying him : For you say that it is not a formal but a virtual denying him ; and that is truly no actual denying him ; for forma dat nomen & esse , Boys will deride you if you deny this . If you object Paul's words , Tit. 1. They confess him in words , but in their works they deny him , I answer , that they denied him formally by their works . For those works signified that their minds did not formally believe God to be God indeed , according to his Essentialities . 2. It is novelty and deceit to affirm ( and stoutly undertake to prove ) that the denying of one of the Propositions from which the Conclusion must arise , is virtually a denying of both . e. g. Whatever is Gods word is true ; but the story of Bell and the Dragon , and of the Angel in Tobit , saying he was the Son of Ananias of the Tribe of Naphthali ; and that the intrals of a Fish would drive away all Devils , that they should never return , &c. are the word of God. May not a man firmly believe the Major , that taketh the Minor for a lie ? And suppose that the Roman Church say that I am obstinate : my reasons are , 1. Angels be not born of man. 2. Christ saith , This kind goeth not out but by fasting and prayer , &c. so that I must take Christ for a lyar , if I take not Tobit to be false : may not I be obstinate in this , and yet not deny that all the Word of God is true . If the Manichees tell me that the Gospel of Nicodemus , and of Saint Thomas is the word of God , and the Papists , that the Apostolical Canons and Constitutions , and the Itinerary of Peter , were written by Clemens , is obstinate unbelief of this , a denying that God is true . Your sufficient proposal is that of your Church . A General Council is your highest proposer ( with the Pope ) . I find that the Council at Constance , and Basil , and Pisa , say one thing and that at Lateran and Florence say the contrary ; and I obstinately refuse to believe them both , may I not yet firmly believe that God is true ? you are not God ; And verily I have more reason to suspect you than God. The Country-man that never read Councils , nor travelled to Rome , knoweth nothing of your matters , but by his Parish-priest . If he know this Priest to be a common whoremonger and lyar , may he not suspect him without denying God ? But if you can prove what you undertake , it is the sadder with you , that can triumph in sentencing your selves as Hereticks to Hell. e. g. Whatever is Gods word is true , but it is Gods word that the Lords Supper should be administred in both kinds ( bread and wine ) ( This do in remembrance of me ) , and that it is bread after the consecration , 1 Cor. 11. and that it is better to pray in a known tongue than in an unknown , 1 Cor. 14. and that they know not what manner of spirit they are of , who would have the resisters of Christs Apostles , and of Christ himself consumed with fire ; and that the Clergy must not Lord it over Gods heritage , but as servants to all , rule them willingly , and not by constraint , &c. Ergo , this is all true . And whoever denieth this truth of God , indirectly denieth Gods essence , and maketh him a lyar : But the Church of Rome denieth all these : Doth it follow that the Church of Rome are Hereticks , blasphemers and lyars ? And all this is sufficiently revealed , for it is plainly written in the Word of God. 3. Note Reader , that such a contradiction of any truth revealed by God , doth make a man an Heretick ; O then what abundance of Hereticks be in the world ? What one man can say , that he doth not contradict some truth revealed by God , by nature or Scripture , or both ? Every mans mind and will is depraved , and being so , hath some degree of obstinacy in resisting some truth of God ; and so all men in the world ( as well as the obstinately erroneous Papists ) are Hereticks . Not only Papists that will believe neither the Scripture , Tradition . Reason , nor all mens senses , that there is bread after Consecrations ; but any one that doth not believe who was the Father of Arphaxad , e. g. or any point of Genealogy , or of Chronology , or differing Numbers in Kings and Chronicles , Ezra and Nehemiah , Mat. 1. and Luk. 3 , &c. Or that doth not believe that every word in Iudith , Tobit , &c. are Gods word , are all Hereticks and deniers of Gods Essence . Nor doth he except any age of persons ; so that if a School-boy should but obstinately deny to believe his Master about a tradition , or a Scripture-name or number , he were a Heretick . The Council of Basil revealeth the sinless conception of the Virgin Mary , and yet the Papists that deny it are not accounted Hereticks : And what shew is there of this consequence , the Council of Ephesus 2. of Arminum , of Lateran , of Nice 2 , of Florence , of Constance , Basil , Trent , may lie : Ergo , God is a lyar . Hereticks should be softer in defining Heresie . I next instanced , What if a man deny that there is a Heaven , Hell , Resurrection , and also the revelation of these , and yet deny not the veracity of God ( no nor of the Church ) is this no Heretick ? He answereth , No , if not sufficiently propounded to him as revealed from God. — But that Proposition must be made by the Church ; and as long as he believeth the infallible veracity of the Church propounding , he cannot disbelieve what it propoundeth sufficiently , &c. R. B. 1. But a man that doth not believe the Infallibility of the Church , may believe Gods Veracity , and yet be an Heretick . 2. A Papist that holdeth your Church infallible , may disbelieve what General Councils deliver as de fide , for so you do . So that this word Sufficient is as unintelligible among your selves , as meer non-sense : For even General Councils proposals are not accounted sufficient when you are against them , and yet every Priest is , when your turn requireth it . 3. And many a man may take the Churches proposal to be certain , and yet think that the Roman Church is but an erroneous faction , and scarce a ( corrupt ) third part of the Church . I next told him that the Jesuit Turnbull against Rob. Baronius , maintaineth that Revelation is no part of the formal object of faith , and therefore to deny it , is not to deny the formal object . 2. And that forma dat nomen , and he is no Heretick that is none formally . To the latter he giveth no answer ; and to the first as bad as none , viz. that the Heretick denieth also the material object ( and what 's that to the case in hand ? ) and that which he is obliged by sufficient reason to believe to be revealed of God ; and therefore virtually denieth God to be true . Ans. But I again reply , 1. Virtual is not actual . 2. It is no virtual denial that God is true , but only that the proposer is true . To be obliged to believe a thing to be Gods word , only proveth that I break that obligation if I believe it not to be his word ; but not at all that I believe God to be a lyar , whose word I believe it not to be . Again , this maketh all Christians to be Hereticks , past dispute : For all Christians receive not something or other ( small or great ) which they were obliged to belie●…e to be Gods word . Do you err in any thing that is revealed by Scripture or Tradition , or not ? If you say no , and so that your understanding hath no sin , you deceive your self , and the truth is not in you : If yea , then were you not obliged to believe the contrary to be Gods word ; if not obliged , then your error is no sin : so that you make every sinful error to be Heresie , and proudly deny that you have any sinful error , lest you should be a Heretick . I added , that their Church is constituted of men that sinfully neglect some point of truth or other sufficiently proposed : Ergo is it constituted of Hereticks . To this he answers , That whatever their neglect be to know what is propounded , yet so long as they believe explicitely what is necessary to be so believed necessitate medii , and implicitely the rest , they can be no Hereitcks : for it is not the ignorance though culpable , but contradiction to what is known to them to be propounded by those that have power to oblige them as being their lawful superiors , which makes an heretick . R. B. 1. But still you agree not , nor tell us what is explicitely to be believed necessarily . 2. By this we are all absolved from heresie ; for we believe all explicitely that is necssary necessitate medii , and all the rest implicitely by a double implicite faith ; 1. In God and our Redeemer . 2. In the inspired Apostles and Prophets ; we believe all to be true which God hath revealed , and which his Apostles have delivered as Gods word . 3. Yea , and all that we know to be propounded by any obliging superiors ; for we know not the Pope , nor your contradictory Councils to be such . My next Qu. 2. was , What mean you by sufficient proposal ? W. I. Such as is sufficient among men in humanis , to oblige one to take notice , that a King hath exacted such and such Laws , &c. that is , a publick testimony that such things are revealed by the infallible authority of those who are the highest tribunal of Gods Church , or by notorious and universal tr●…dition . R. B. 1. Here the Reader may see , that he taketh sufficiency respectively to the Promulgator , viz. as much as he was obliged to do : for a King is not bound to publish his Laws in every parish , or county , but only to make such a publication of them in the chief places of his kingdom , as that men may take notice of them . Kings send not Schoolmasters to teach every man how to prove that his Laws are not counterfeit , and what they are , and what is the meaning of them . For the enacting of them being a late matter of fact , and easily notified , as near unto them , and no other knowledg or belief of them being required but such as is necessary to that part of the obedience of them which belongeth to every man in his place , this is not necessary . And if such a publication of Gods Laws be sufficient , millions that never heard a word of the Bible , or what Christ is , have such a sufficient publication : for the Gospel is published in many parts of the world , and perhaps in many places of the Kingdoms where they dwell , though they never heard it . 2. But when men have the publick testimony that such statutes are made , and such a Book sent from God , this doth not acquaint men what those Statutesor that Book contains : sothat by this rule it should be sufficient to know that God made the Bible , without knowing what is in it ; or else he that is but told that there is such a book , is bound by that much to know all that is in it . 3. But note the Popish difficulty of faith ; W. I. tells us ( after the rest ) that we must know these things revealed by the infallible authority of those who are the highest tribunal of Gods Church , &c. And is it possible for one that knoweth nothing of Christ or the Scripture , or that Christ hath a Church , to know yet , 1. That he hath a Church . 2. And that he hath authorized some men to be the highest Tribunal to judg that Church through all the world . And 3. That he hath particularly authorized them to judg which is and is not his revelation . 4. And to know who be the men that are this highest Tribunal to all the world , viz. for those of Abassia , that had not so much History as to tell them that there was such a City as Rome , or such a man as the Pope in the world , till Oviedo was sent ( who told it but to few ) , could yet know that this Pope and his Council are their Judges , and from them they must receive the Gospel . 5. And to know that this Universal Tribunal is infallible , before they believe in Christ himself , who is supposed to give them their Infallibility ? Alas ! must every poor Infidel know all this , before he can believe in Christ , when we that live among them , and read their laws and doctrines , cannot easily believe the Infallibility of those Popes , who by General Councils are charged not only with Murder , Adultery , Simony , Perjury , &c. but with Heresie also , or Infidelity ? Nor the Infallibility of those General Councils , who are accused by Popes and by other Councils of Error , Heresie or Schism ? 4. But he addeth another way , Or by notorious and universal Tradition . And 1. If this will serve , then I hope we may have true faith that believe no humane infallible Tribunal over all the world , much less that the Pope and his Council are such a Tribunal ; for we have notorious Universal Tradition , delivering us all our Religion . 2. But yet these are hard terms for every poor Heathen to come to Christ by : Alas , how shall the millions of people through the world , who know nothing that is many days journey from their houses , know what is the notorious Tradition of all the Christian world ? I that search after it in all the books that I can get , can scarce give a good account of the Tradition of much of the greater part of Christians . Nay no Universal Tradition at all is notorious to most Christians , much less to all the Heathens and Infidels on earth . It is not notorious to most in England , what is the Tradition of the Abassians , Syrians , Armenians , Greeks , no nor of the Italians , French , Spaniards , Germans , &c. That is notorious to Scholars , which is not so to the unlearned ; and to Antiquaries , which is not so to other Scholars . Here W. I. answereth two things , 1. That to know some Laws of the Commonwealth , is of importance to salvation . 2. That God should have made a visible Government imprudently , whose Governors could not be known but by revelation . R. B. 1. And how comes importing to be put instead of necessity to salvation ? This is but fraud . 2. It were worth our diligent enquiry , could we prevail with these men to open to us this mystery , How it is that the Pope and his Council may be known to be the supreme Governors of the world , without revelation ? I will abate my Antagonists the answering of all the rest , if they will but be intreated to answer me this one question . It seems that it is by no promise of Christ , no word of God , no nor by any revelation of the Spirit , or Miracles , that we must know them to be our Governors . I confess I can know without revelation , that they claim such authority as any Traytor or Usurper may do ; but that they have such authority , it is past my reach to conjecture which way it is to be proved without revelation . But I intreat the Reader to remember this , in all our further disputes with them ; That they confess that it is not by revelation ( by Scripture , Spirit , Miracles , or Tradition , made known ) that the Pope and his Council are the supreme Governors of the Universal Church . And yet we must know this before we can believe in Christ , or believe the Scripture to be true : And we must know it of necessity to salvation . And another difficulty here seemeth insuperable , viz. Seeing this is not a matter of Revelation , it can be no matter of Divine faith ; and if so , how is all other faith resolved into it ? and how is the belief of this ( which is no belief ) called our implicite belief of all the word of God ? can no man be saved that cannot unriddle all these contradictions ? Next I further noted : R. B. That if he lay the sufficiency on the respect to all mens various capacities of receiving the notice , then they can never know who are Hereticks ; but if they lay it on a general publication , then all or almost all men are Hereticks , being unavoidably ignorant of many things so published . To this he saith , That he Judgeth of no mans conscience . Ans. But do not they judg of them , that burn them , and depose Princes for not exterminating them ? He saith , It is sufficient , 1. that such as acknowledg themselves they know such points of faith to be propounded by the Roman Church ( which I infallibly believe to be the true Church ) and that notwithstanding reject them as errors , give me ground to presume them to be Hereticks . Ans. 1. I perceive that it is not the Pope only that is infallible , but you also are infallible in believing his Church . But alas ! how many are deceived and deceivers , that call themselves infallible ? 2. But if your belief in the Pope were infallible , must all others be hereticks , and be burnt , that have not attained to your degree of knowledg ( or self-conceitedness ) ? 3. Just now you said the Governours of the Church need no revelation to make them known ; and now it is an article of your belief , That the Roman Church is the true Church : so slippery is your foundation ! 4. But what meaneth that hard word The true Church ? Is it not enough if it were proved a true Church ? Either you mean the universal Church , or a particular Church ; if the former , why speak you so sneakingly , and did not speak out , that the Roman Church is all , the whole Church that Christ hath on earth ? Which assertion we abhor , and despair of any thing like a proof of it . If the latter what is it to us whether Rome be a true Church , any more than whether Ephesus , Thessalonica , or such other be so ? 5. But ( to leave your parenthesis ) what 's all this to the most of the Christian world that do not acknowledg themselves that they know such points of faith to be propounded by the Church of Rome ? There is not one of five hundred among us that ever read your Councils , nor knoweth one of many things propounded by you to be such . And are all these now absolved from heresie ? How long will that be their security , if the burning and exterminating Religion should prevail ? And is it my hard fate to become a Heretick more than all the rest of my neighbours , because I have read your Councils when they have not ? Then I would counsel all that love not to be burned , to take heed of medling with such Councils . I have oft read how dangerous a thing you judg it for unlicensed men to read Gods word , and of many that have been burned for it , and its consequents , and how you account it the way to Heresie : But I have not oft before read how dangerous it is to read your Decrees , or to know all that the Church of Rome propoundeth ; for he that knoweth them all , must have a very ready commandable faith , such as can believe in despight of Sense , Reason , Scripture , and Tradition , to escape the guilt of Heresie . But I pray you ( were you not inexorable executioners ) when it cometh next to the burning of Dissenters , that you will spare all that confess not that they know what is propounded by your Church , yea though they take not their parish-priest that tells it them , to be infallible , especially if they know him to be a common lyar , or one that holds that lying for mens good , is a venial sin , or none . W. I. 2. Such as oppose what all visible Churches have most notoriously practised and believed as Divine truths , while they were so universally taught and practised , I may safely presume to be Hereticks . R. B. 1. No O●…dipus can tell whether ( while ) here , refer to ( believed ) or to ( oppose ) . If to the latter , then neither Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , or Protestants , are Hereticks ; for they oppose not such points while they were so universally taught and practised ( whatever their forefathers did ) ; for they have themselves so many partners , as derogates from the pretended Universality of the Adversaries . But if by all the visible Church , you mean all except themselves ; or if the word ( while ) relate to ( believe ) , then the Church of Rome are characterized by you for certain Hereticks : for I defie impudence it self , in challenging it to deny , that the Universal Church did notoriously believe and practice the administration of the Lords Supper in both kinds ( the Cup as well as the Bread ) and the celebration of publike worship in a known tongue , and the reading and hearing of the Scripture in a known tongue by the people , and others such like . But yet I will not take you at your word , nor call you Hereticks meerly on the account : asserted by you ; for I know that your rule is false . And if a man had known that the Universal Church had held some opinion of Chronology , or Genealogy , or Cosmography , ( as about Cainan , or the age of Sem , or that there were no Artipodes ) especially in the dismal Ninth Century ; and if he had thought that they took this point for a Divine Revelation , believing the Septuagint or some other mis-translation ( which was commonly received before Ieromes time ) this man so thinking that the whole Church then erred in so small a point , was no Heretick for so thinking ; for I would know of your self , whether the Popes and all their followers be not Hereticks ? For the Septuagint was long taken by the Universal Church for the Word of God , and so was the Vulgar Latin long after by your Universal Roman Church ; and consequently that those Texts were Gods Word which yet afterward you altered : Many hundred or thousand alterations in the one were made by Sixtus 5 , and Clement 8 , all which were so many judgments that the Church had erred that before took the other readings for the Word of God ( unless you can make one thing Gods word to day , and the contrary to morrow . ) 5. But by this rule also we are acquit from Heresie , if it was not notorious to us that the Universal Church believed and practised contrary to us , which sure is notorious to very few at most . And indeed we differ from the Roman Church the more , because we dare not with them differ from the belief and practice of the far greatest part of the Church of Christ in this and in former ages . R. B. Is not the Bible a publick testimony and record , and being universally received is an universal tradition ? and yet abundance of truths in it , are not actually known or believed by most of your own Church . W. J. It is only a Tradition , that whatever is there delivered is the word of God ; but it is no tradition that such a determinate sense and no other is the word of God in every sentence contained in it , when according to the analogy of faith the words are capable of many senses . R. B. Worse and worse still ! 1. Tradition tells us that this Bible is Gods Word : This Word of God is significant and intelligible , or else it is worse and more defective than the common words of men : This intelligible Bible or Word therefore delivereth to us its own sense : If not , then Councils do not deliver us the sense of Gods Word , or their own : For God could speak as well as they , and their words are no more plain than his . Yet a multitude of plain intelligible Texts are not understood by many of your Church , whom you call not Hereticks ; yea your learned Commentators differ and fight about their sense . 2. Therefore when you talk of every sentence , you do but fly and hide your fraud . If your meaning be that no sentences of Scripture are Divine revelations as they are in Gods own words , but as expounded by your Church , all Christian ears should abhor your blasphemy . If you mean only that there are some Texts so difficult as that most Christians cannnot understand them , or that are capable of various senses , we grant it : But what are those to all the rest ? Is every man a Heretick that erreth about the sense of any one plain Text of Scripture , or not ? And it is perverse that you say , of divers senses according to the analogy of faith : For a Text may be expounded contrary to the plain words and context , which yet is not expounded contrary to the analogy of faith , if by that word you mean as is usual , contrary to the harmony of Christian necessary Truths , yea or contrary to any other truth whatever , save that Text it self . And now , Reader , I leave it to thy reason whether this man have given us any regardable notice at all , what is Heresie ? or what they mean by it , or have not trifled and said nothing . But what Heresie is , I will briefly tell you : The word signifying Election , was used in the beginning sometime for any Sect or Party divided from the common body of the Church : And Christians were called a Heresie by the Iews . By the Christians the name signified any party of men that professing to differ in some necessary thing from the common body of Christians , and the Doctrine of the Apostles ; did separate from them as unmeet for their Communion , and gather themselves into divided Societies . So that differing from the Apostolical Doctrine and Churches ; and making different Sects or Societies therefore which separated from and opposed the Churches , was called Heresie by the Apostles ; and it was the same thing with the grossest sort of Schism . And the commonest sense of the word . Schism , then was lower , signifying either the contentious making of divisions within a Church without separating from it , or else the breaking of one Church into many , without separating from other Churches , or the generality of Christians . And so long after the word Heresie was sometime used for such Schism only ( and hence Lucifer Calaritanus , and the Novatians , and many others were called Hereticks ) . And sometimes used more cautelously in a narrower sense , for those only that denied some essential article of faith or practice . And sometimes in a yet narrower sense , for those only that upon such a denial of some essential point , did gather into a separated Society to maintain their error , and oppugn the truth . And according to these various senses of the word Horesie , and Heretick , we must conclude that a Heretick may or may not be saved , and is , or is not within the Universal Church ; which W. I. doth deceitfully confound . Of which I have said more in the End , and shewed you by an instance of Philastrius , how mischievous it is to abuse the name of Heresie against every different opinion of true Christians , and so to make Hereticks of all Believers in the world . CHAP. III. What mean you by the Word POPE ? W. J. By POPE I mean St. Peter , or any of his lawful successors in the See of Rome , having authority by the institution of Christ , to govern all particular Churches next under Christ. R. B. I am never the nearer knowing the Pope by this , till I know how St. Peters Successors may be known to me . Q. 1. What personal qualification is necessary ad esse ? W. J. Such as are necessary ad esse of other Bishops , which I suppose you know . R. B. If so , then all those were no Popes that were Hereticks , or denied essential points of faith . W. J. 'T is true , they were no Popes while formal Hereticks , if any such were . R. B. As Iohn 22 , 23 , Eugenius 4th , &c. W. J. Prove that . R. B. The Articles brought against them , and the judgments thereupon , are a proof , if any thing may be called a proof ; viz. in the Council at Rome against Iohn , in the Councils of Constance against divers , at Basil against Eugenius , and others much elder against Honorius , &c. Is a General Council no proof ? I added that so they were no Christians : and he answers , Prove that * . To which I say , General Councils are your Catholick Church representative , and those charge these Popes with Heresie and Infidelity : If you are so frontless as to deny it , I will not therefore tire the Reader with transcribing Councils as oft as you can say , Prove it . I added , And all those that wanted the necessary abilities to the essentials of their works . He saith , Prove that there were such Popes ? I answer , That you have had children Popes , and some that were illiterate and ignorant , I have oft proved by the express testimonies of your own Historians . How oft must I repeat them ? I added , That therefore their Church hath oft been headless , and the Succession interrupted ; Councils having thus censured many Popes . W. J. When you have proved the precedents , prove that . R. B. Reader , is not the cause of the Papacy in a desperate case , if Arms upheld it not , when their Champion hath no more to say for the very successive being of the Popes , but to bid me prove that which all men that read them know is commonly and copiously asserted by their Councils and Historians ? How oft have I cited their Platina , Werverus , yea Baro●…us , Binnius , Genebrard their greatest flatterers , telling us that some were Children , and some illiterate , and fifty together were not Apostolical , but Apostatical , &c. W. I. Prove that they were lawful Councils which so censured any Popes , which we admit as true and lawful . R. B. Alas , poor men ▪ are you driven to that ? 1. If you have the face to deny those to be lawful Councils that censured Honorius , the two Iohns , Eugenius , &c. we may as well and a little better use the same liberty , and question whether that of Trent , Florence , Lateran , &c. were lawful ? 2. May not the world see now what is the foundation of your faith , and the validity of your Authority and Tradition ? even your own wills ? General Councils tell you the sense of the Church , and the Tradition of your fore-fathers , if you like them . But if the Pope dislike them , they are no lawful Councils , and their testimony null . The sum is , whatever Councils say , the Pope shall never be proved a Heretick or Infidel till he will say that he is one himself , and will subscribe as Marcellinus did to his own condemnation , or with Liberius confess his fault . 3. And have not these men a notable advantage to proselyte Ladies and illiterate persons , when if General Councils damn their Popes , it is but bidding them , Prove those to have been lawful Councils . And though I can prove to them that even their own Popes have affirmed them lawful , yet few women are so far skilled in History , and so they must yield to every impudent deceiver : And when I have proved all , it is but as Bellarmine's fetching a denial out of the word Conciliariter , against the approbation of Martin 5. 4. But is this enough for you ? what if none were lawful Councils that displease the Pope ? Are they therefore no competent witnesses of a matter of fact ? In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established . And are not so many hundred Bishops and other Clerks as were at the Councils of Basil , Constance , Pisa , &c. competent Witnesses , that the Pope was a Heretick , Simonest , Murderer , &c. had the Pope but consented these Councils had been the Catholick Church and infallible ? And may they not be credible Witnesses against him till he consent ? How shall we believe them , when they tell us what was held and done in all the Christian World a thousand or fourteen hundred years ago , if after examination of Witnesses we may not believe them concerning one man , one publick sinner , in their own time , and known to many of themselves ? What then would the testimony of a Historian or an hundred Historians signifie , if the testimony of many hundred Bishops congregate and deliberately examining , consulting and sentencing , be false ? R. B. I next asked , Q. 2. Where and how must this Institution of Christ ( of the Papacy ) be found ? W. J. In the revealed Word of God , written or unwritten . R. B. 1. Remember , Reader , that even now he told us that the Church-Governours are known without Revelation , else God had made an imprudent Government . He could not mean that they are known to be men , but Governours , distinct from Usurpers , or else he had spoke non-sense or impertinently . And yet now it is in the revealed word of God. 2. I answered , That they never gave the world assurance how to know the measure of their unwritten word , nor where to find it , so as to know what it is . W. J. We say we have . R. B. Just as now you do to me : If that Word of God be still unwritten , and neither to be found in your Councils , nor any of your Books , I challenge all the reason in the world , to tell us where we may certainly come to know what it is , and when we have all ; especially when so great Councils as Ariminum , Ephes. 2 , Constance and Basil may be deceived in your very Fundamentals of Authority , in matter of fact so near at hand ? R. B. Till you prove Christs institution , which you have nev●… done , you free us from believing in the Pope . W. J. All are free from believing in the Pope ; we believe in God , but not in the Pope : who of us ever charged you to do so ? R. B. Even they that charge us to trust our very Salvation upon his Infallibility , Veracity or Authority , as from which only with his Council we must know what is Gods Word , and what the meaning of it , what is it to believe in , but to believe his Authority and Veracity , and trust upon it ? But we thank you for discharging us from believing in the Pope : But I doubt when we are in your power , you will call us to an after-reckoning , and burn us for not believing on him , when you acquit us from believing in him ; so much of your faith doth lie on a Letter . R. B. Quest. 3. Will any ones Election prove him to be Pope ? or who must elect him ad esse ? W. J. Such as by approved custom are esteemed by those to whom it belongs , fit for that charge , and with whose election the Church is satisfied . R. B. Now we come to their desperation ! never were men put to more open confusion in the very essence of their cause . Something must be said , but they know not what . I noted here , that if no Election , or any ones Election will serve turn , the Scholars may elect a Schoolmaster Pope , and any man may be Pope , or an hundred may be Popes : But if not , then it must be known who it is that hath the power of Election , and that it was done by them . The people of Barnet or Brainford have no authority to elect a Lord Mayor of London ; nor would one of their choice be any better than a Play-house Lord. Our Question is , Who must choose the Governour of all the world ? In reason all the world should meet by themselves , or their just Delegates to choose him . But the man that claimeth this Divine Soveraignty hath been sometime chosen at Rome by a meeting of Lay-citizens ; and sometimes by neighbour-Bishops , and sometimes ( at the best ) by Citizens and Presbyters together , Bishops approving it , and sometimes by the Emperors of Rome , of Constantinople , or of Germany , and sometime by a sort of things called Cardinals . Now if none of these have more right to choose him than the rest , then either any body hath right that can carry it out , and get possession , or else no body hath right , or none can tell who hath it . Accordingly for above forty years together , the Emperour and his party chose one Pope , and the King of France and his party chose another ; one reigned at Rome , and another at Avignion in France . Part of Europe chose or owned one , and part another ; and at once , saith Wernerus , there were six alive that were then Popes , or had been Popes ( of whom one honester than the rest , because he could not read himself , chose another Pope to be his partner to read the Mass , which he could not do , and to help him in the rest ) . Here in the answer of W. J. 1. He durst not tell us who have the power of Election . 2. But he saith it must be those that are fit for the charge . If I should ask who must choose the Lord Mayor of London , and you should so answer me , Those that are fit for the charge , would not any sensible Reader judg by your answer that you were unfit for an honest disputation . 3. He saith , that the Electors must be so esteemed ( fit for the charge ) by those to whom it doth belong , To whom what doth belong ? why , to esteem the Electors fit . But how should a man know to whom it doth belong to judg who is fit to be an Elector ? Doth it belong to the World or to Rome ? To the people , Presbyters , Bishops , Emperours or Cardinals ? Here we have more difficulties than we thought of ; we must know who is fit to be Pope , and who is fit to elect him , and to whom it belongs to judg who are fit to be Electors ; that is , to elect Electors ; and when shall we come to know all this ? If he say that it is the people that must choose the Choosers , what people be they ? they of Rome ? or they of all Italy ? or they of Germany ? or of France ? or of all Europe ? or of all the World ? 3. He saith that the choosers must be such as by custom are esteemed fit by these ; But what custom doth the man mean ? when there have been four or five ways or sorts of Election , had not every one of them a beginning ? and at their beginning could they plead custom ? O that your sword were no stronger than your reasons ! 4. Yea , he saith , It must be approved customs . But not a word who must be the approvers of all these new customs . 5. And when all is done , no more is needful , but that the unknown persons to whom it belongs do esteem the Electors fit , and so be they fit or unfit their estimation carrieth it . 6. But yet the hardest part remaineth , The Church must be satisfied with the Election . But , 1. Either the Election is valid or invalid before : If valid , will the Churches dissatisfaction invalidate it ? If invalid , will the Churches satisfaction make it valid , or make him Pope that was none before ? Who would have thought that a Pope had been a wight so utterly unintelligible ? 2. And what way must the Churches satisfaction be notified to me ? Is it by some note of approbation , or by silence ? It 's in vain for men to contradict that have no power . But what if I believed in my conscience that most of the Church is unsatisfied in the Election ? Must I take that man to be no Pope ? Then I am necessitated to believe that when Whores and Murderers , and such like , brought in the fifty that Baronius and Genebrard called Apostatical , &c. there was an interruption of the Succession by the dissatisfaction of the Church . Good Sir , was the Church satisfied with such men ? Was it satisfied with those that the foresaid Council condemned as Heretical , wicked , and one of them a Devil incarnate ? Did those Councils signifie no dissatisfaction of the Church ? 3. And must I suspend my reception of the Pope till the Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , yea or Mexicans , and the Antipodes signifie their satisfaction ? 4. But what is the Church that must be satisfied ? when half Europe was for one , and the rest for another for forty years and more , with which of them was the Church satisfied ? Was France or Germany the Church ? 5. Lastly , by this we are acquit from acknowledging your Pope at all , while we know that three fourth parts , or at least two third parts of Christs Church on Earth is unsatisfied with your Pope and Papacy it self . To all this he answers : W. J. 1. Tour exceptions are fallacies , à sensu conjuncto ad sensum divisum . R. B. See , Reader , what the Papacy is come to , if it had not the sword , or ignorance to uphold it ? when he puts together so many things as necessary ad esse to the Election of a Pope , ( and yet makes nothing but a meer name to deceive the ignorant of any one of them ) is it fallacious of me to expect that all those things be found in the Election ? Or is it not fallacious in him that can shew us never a one of them ? Next W. I. saith , If the Church did really acquiesce in such an elected person as Pope , it was satisfied according to the substance of the Election , though not in the circumstances . R. B. 1. Reader , is this any answer to any of the foresaid Objections ? what satisfaction ? what Church ? when part of the Church was divided , and the greater part abhor'd them all ? And was he Pope or no before this acquiescing ? If so , what made him so ? And , 2. What doth he but cheat us by his distinction of the substance and circumstances of Election ? Doth he not obstinately ( but necessarily ) refuse to tell what is the substance of Election ? Have those that were brought in by Whores , Poyson and Murders , the substance ? Had those that were chosen by people , Presbyters , Bishops , Emperours , and Cardinals , all the substance ? If so , why may not twenty have the substance at once , or four or five at least ? what is it that is the substance ? Alas , we ask in vain that which cannot be told us ! Next he saith , If the Church never accepted them as Popes , they are not to be accounted Legal Popes . Ans. Farewel the Papacy then : and yet must we be burnt for not being their Subjects : 1. Then it seems that Election and Consecration made them not Popes at all before the Churches acceptance : And sure that never made them such afterward . 2. Then we have no Popes ; now most of the Church ( Abassines , Copties , Armenians , Syrians , Greeks , Moscovites , Protestants , &c. there are two to one ) are against the Papacy . 3. And then Eugenius the 4th , and others disowned and damned by General Councils ( your own Churches Representatives ) were no Popes . Next he saith , That the abuses of Election came from mingling Lay-authority with Church-Government , which is out of their Sphere . Now this abuse is much consonant with the Doctrine of Protestants ; so that those for the most part who conform their practice according to the Protestants Principles , introduced this abuse into th●… Popes Election . Ans. Reader , what doth this man deserve for thus murdering the Papal cause ? 1. Our question was not who it was long of th●… they had no true lawful Popes for a long time , but whether it be not true , and their succession interrupted ? 2. And is he worthy to be accounted a man that ever read Church-History that knoweth not , that before there were any Christian Emperours , the Laity with the Presbyters chose the Bishop of Rome , and all other Bishops ? so then , if this was the abuse , the first and ancient way was the abuse , which their innovation rectified ; and who knoweth not what power the Emperours used from 320 till 1000 years , in disposing of all the Patriarchal seats ? And seeing Cardinals are the newest way of Election , is not the newest likest to be the abuse ? 3. But I desire the Reader specially to note , that this man confesseth that Popes , were formerly chosen according to Protestant principles ; and that their present way is a Reformation of the Protestant way as abusive ; and who then are the Innovators , and the culpable Reformers ? even Hildebrand Greg. 7. after bloody Wars against the Emperours , and the perjury that he had involved a great part of the Clergy in . And yet they would perswade men that it is our Principles and Reformation that are new , and theirs is the old way . 4. We are not ashamed to own that the Protestant principles do assert the power of Christian Princes in matters of Religion so far as the sword is therein to interpose ( which Bishop Bilson of Chris. Subjection hath well opened ) and the power of the people in consenting to their Pastors ; and that we abhor their forcing Princes to be their executioners . R. B. Is consecration necessary , and by whom ad esse ? W. J. It is not absolutely necessary ad esse . R. B. If Consecration be not necessary to Papacy , then it is not necessary that this or that man consecrate him more than another ; and then it is not necessary to a Bishop , and then the want of it makes no interruption in any Church , any more than in yours . W. J. Neither Papal nor Episcopal Iurisdiction ( as all the Learned know ) depends of Episcopal or Papal ordination , nor was there ever interruption in successions in Episcopal Iurisdiction in any See for want of that alone , that is necessary for consecrating others validly , and not for jurisdiction over them . R. B. What multiplied self-destroying answers are you driven to ? 1. See here , Reader , how short a solution you have from themselves , of all their old objections about the Bishops Ordination at the Nags . head-Tayern in Cheapside , and the interruption of our Succession , and nullity of our Priesthood ; now you see that jurisdiction depends not on Ordination , but may be without it . Their Pope and Bishops may have all their Ecclesiastical Government , though they be Lay-men . And may not Parish-priests have so also over the people ? These Papists are more kind to the Protestant-Churches that have not Episcopal Ordination , than some called Protestants in this age are ; want of Ordination nulleth not their Government . But for my part I would the Church had never known any such Jurisdiction , as is neither the Magistrates by the sword , nor given by Ordinaion to the Pastors , called the power of the Keys : At least I thought that it had been necessary to Popes and Prelates that they be Priests . If some as seniors among Presbyters , may be the Governours of the rest , ( as an Abbot among Monks ) yet sure he must be a Presbyter ( or Monk ) himself . I take the Priestly Office or Ministry to be essentiated by a Subordination to Christ in the participation of the three parts of his Office ministerially , viz. to be Sub-teachers , Sub-rectors , and Sub-priests to guide the people in Gods worship . If Ordination be not necessary to Iurisdiction ( a presumptuous word for Clergy-men ) then either such unordained Bishops may ordain or not . If not , they are no Bishops . What is their Jurisdiction ? If yea , then they may give that which they never had , and Lay-men may ordain . And may not ordained Presbyters ordain much more ? One would think that the reading of Voetius against Iansenius , De desperata causa Papatus , had driven this man to these desperate answers : But he was aware that some Popes having been unordained men , he had no other shift . Join to this what Dr. Stillingfleet after others hath fully proved , that the Orders given by Schismaticks and Hereticks are valid in the opinion of their Doctors , and you will see that their talk against the English Ministry is such , as the men do not believe themselves . R. B. Q. 3. What notice or proof is necessary to the Subjects ? W. J. So much as is necessary to oblige subjects to accept of other elected Princes to be their Soveraigns . R. B. 1. But what that is , you would not tell us . 2. But if this be so , it must be so much as sufficeth to the subjects to distinguish him from Usurpers ; or else Kings and Usurpers must be equally obeyed ; and if so , then 1. The greatest part of the Christian world ( Abassines and the rest before named ) have no such notice of your Pope ; it was many ages before the Abassines heard of him . 2. And Greeks and Protestants have no such notice ; nay you tell no man which way he should have it , when neither any one way of election , nor any Consecration is necessary to the Office. 3. And then what notice had men in the long Schisms , which was the true Pope ? But note , Reader , that a Kingdome is so narrow a space , that notice may be given to all the subjects who is their true King. But the Earth is so great , and so much of it unknown , and so few ever sailed about it since the Creation , and those few saw so few of the inhabitant , that verily it is a hard matter to satisfie all the world who is the true Pope , and that he is truly elected , and is no Usurper . And on these terms it is but little of the world that is obliged to be subject to the Pope . And now , Reader , if this man hath taught thee to understand what a Pope is , and what makes him so , and who is he , thou art far more teachable than I am ; for he leaveth me more at a loss than he found me . CHAP. IV. What mean you by the word Bishop ? W. J. I mean by Bishop such a Christian Pastor as hath power and jurisdiction to govern the inferior Pastors , Clergy and people within his Diocess , and to confirm and give holy Orders to such as are subject to him . R. B. Here I desired to know of him , whether he meant a power given by God or by men ? and if by God , whether mediately or immediately ? But this he was not willing to answer . Saying : W. J. The definition abstracts from particulars , and subsists without determining that question . R. B. But sure equivocals make no good definitions ; and power or Episcopacy given by God , and given by man , cannot be ejusdem speciei , and therefore the word as to them is equivocal . Here therefore I asked : Q. 1. Whether , seeing they seem to make the Pope himself but a humane creature ( or jure humano ) they set not the Bishop above him , if the Bishop be jure divino . And if not , whether they make not all their Churches humane things ; ( or however the Roman Church to be humane , and so its form not necessary to Salvation , if the Pope be humane . ) W. J. Where said I that Election was jure humano ? that there be an election of him , is jure divino , ( by competent Electors ) : the determination who hic & nunc are competent , is jus Ecclesiasticum . — Know you not that neither the Electors nor Consecrators of him , give him Papal jurisdiction , but Christ ? R. B. 1. You say that there is no need of Revelation to know the Church-Governours : therefore they are not of Gods making , unless it be jure naturali ; which none pretend . For God no way giveth right but by natural evidence of this will , or by Revelation , ( either natural in the constitution of the Creatures , or natural by Providential alterations , or by Supernatural notice . ) 2. If God have not annexed the power to any one sort of Electors choice , or have given no power to any determinate persons to choose a Pope , nor to any to choose the Choosers , then either God giveth no power to the Pope , or else he giveth Papal power to every one that shall be chosen by whomsoever : The later you abhor , for then any man might be Pope at his pleasure , and there might be a thousand at once . The former consequence is plain , because if God make not every man a Pope , but one man in the world ; the Donation of God must by God be some way applied to that person rather than to others : Now if God hath neither impowred any determinate ( or specified ) persons to elect him rather than others , nor any to elect Electors , nor yet made the Consecrators the determining appliers , there is no way by which God applieth it more to that man than to others . You neither do nor can name any other way . Now you confess that God hath not given the power of Election to any determinate persons , but that the Electors may be sometimes people , sometime Presbyters , or both ; sometime Princes , sometime Bishops sometime Cardinals . All that God saith you hold , is that they be competent . But this determineth of none . And you neither do , nor can tell us to whom God hath given the power to judg antecedently of the Electors competency , and to choose the choosing persons , without which it will never be any mans work , unless all that think themselves competent may choose Popes . You dare not undertake to tell us , whether it be all the Christian world , or only the City of Rome , Princes , Prelates , Presbyters people , or who , that God hath made choosers of the choosers So that you cannot say that God giveth the Pope his power by your way . 3. But on the by I desire those that say that their Electors or Ordainers give Ministers their power , to learn here this truth from you , that God giveth the power by his Donative word , and men do but determine of the person that shall from God receive it . But yet a determination there must be , and that of Gods appointment . R. B. I told him that R. Smith , called Bishop of Calcedon , Governour of the English Papists , ubi supra , confesseth it to be no part of their faith that the Pope is St. Peters successor jure divino . He answereth : W. J. You should have done well to cite the place ; for I have no time to seek whole books over . R. B. Note what trust is due to this sort of men : I had to him in the same book cited the words in pag. 289. of my book , and R. Calcedons book , cap. 5. the words are : To us it suffereth that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peter 's successor , and this all the Fathers testifie , and all the Catholick Church believeth ; but whether it be jure divino , or humano , is no point of faith . Now when he came to the words where I cited them , he wisely takes no notice of them . And now when I refer him to the citation which was a few leaves before , the weary wary man instead of an answer , saith , I should have done well to cite the place , for he hath not time to seek whole books . But what good will well-doing do to such a one as you , where the better it is , the worse you like it ? Is not this a false intimation , that I did not cite them ? R. B. Qu. 4. I asked , How shall we know who hath this Episcopal power ? What election or consecration is necessary to it ? If I know not who hath it , I am never the better . He answereth : W. J. As you know who hath temporal power , by an universal or most common consent of the people : The Election is different according to different times , places , and other circumstances ; Episcopal Consecration is not absolutely necessary to true Episcopal Iurisdiction . R. B. More hard things still ! 1. I know who is King in temporal power in our hereditary Kingdom , by the constitution of the Monarchy confest by all men to be hereditary , and so attested by Law and History ; and by most credible testimony , and uncontrouled fame , that CHARLES the Second is the true Heir : And in Elective Kingdoms , as Poland , it is known by publick undenied testimony . But do Bishops become such by their birthright and hereditary Title ? who hath asserted that ? If it be by Election , the Electors must have just power to elect ? 2. But what mean you by common consent of the people ? No man can tell whether you join those words to know , or to hath , If you mean that I must know it by the peoples consent , as notifying it to me , it 's nothing to our question now ; nor is it always true : The greater part of the people may mistake the Prince's right , and suppose it to be in a Usurper , and yet the Prince doth not lose his right by that , nor must I believe them . And I think in your Schisms , no man could say that the common consent of the people , was always for him that carried it at last as right . But if you mean , as you seem , that the universal or common consent of the people , is the determining cause that must qualifie the person for the power , Then either you mean an antecedent or a consequent consent . If antecedent , that is election , which you say may vary . If consequent , it could not cause that which was caused before . And it is not true that the consequent consent of the most of the people , depriveth the King of his Power , or proveth it to be in a Usurper . 3. But seeing you here also say , that Consecration is not absolutely necessary , nor Election by any one sort or way , but may be varied as times vary , you have made either any man a Bishop , that any men will chuse ; or you have made no man a Bishop , for want of a determining application ; or no man can know himself , or be known to be a Bishop . If the question were , Who is the true Husband of such a woman ? and you should say , That her own antecedent consent or election is not necessary , but without it sometimes the Kings election , sometimes the Ministers , sometimes the Parents may serve ; and Matrimonial celebration is not necessary ; it would follow that the woman may have a Husband against her will , and before she consent ; and she may have many , or can never know which is he , for the King may chuse her one , and the Priest another , and the Parents a third . So here . 4. And if his Consecration be not necessary to Episcopacy , how will you prove Ordination necessary to the Priesthood ? Here I noted , R. B. that he resolveth the mysteries of their succession and mission , into popular consent . To this W. I. saith , that he meaneth it only as the means of knowing it . Ans. But I enquired of the causes or evidences by which a Bishop may be known from a Usurper , what it is that maketh him a Bishop ? as I would know a man from a brute ; a Judg , a Physician , a Merchant , from other men . But he durst not come to this , because guilt makes them conscious of their own defect . But W. I. saith , p. 50 , It is sufficient that some generalities of Election be determined jure divino . Ans. Let them be such that I may know a Bishop from a Usurper by , and it is enough . W. J. As that it he done by Christians , by such as are capable to know who is a fit person for the Office , chusing freely occording to the Laws of God ; the further determinations are left to the Church , &c. R. B. Worse still ! 1. If the men of York chuse a Bishop of London , or several parties chuse ten Bishops here , they are all chosen by Christians . But that is not enough . What if ten parties chuse ten Popes , ten Kings , ten Bishops , the Christianity of the chusers will not prove them all authorized . 2. Nor will the choosers capacity of knowing the capable prove it . Three or four very wise men may best know who is capable to be a Judg , a Bishop , a Husband , a Tutor , a Physician &c. and yet if they should choose all the Judges , Bishops , Husbands , &c. in the land , the persons chosen by them would be never the more such , than the unchosen . 3. But being conscious that you had said nothing , you put in these words , according to the Laws of God. But the question is , How shall I know what makes a true Bishop according to the Laws of God ? and you skilfully tell me , he must be chosen by knowing Christians according to the Laws of God. He that is not satisfied by you with such talk , let him be unsatisfied . R. B. I here noted again that by his way none of our Churches are disabled from the plea of a continued succession for want of Episcopal Consecration ( Ordination ) or due Election . 2. But that we cannot know their Bishops to be true Bishops , because we cannot know that they have common consent . He answereth : W. J. No man argues you of the want of succession in your respective Sees because you want Episcopal Consecrations , but because you want Episcopal Election , Confirmation , Vocation , Mission , Iurisdiction . For your first Bishops in Queen Elizabeths time ( and the same is of your Ministers of Parishes ) were intruded by secular power , — the Capitula had the present power of electing the Bishops , — vid. caet . R. B. 1. It 's well we are now quite rid of the old cavil of the Nags-head Consecration : Why was not this confest sooner ? Did you well to abuse the people so long ? 2. I thought we had nothing to have proved but due Qualifications , due election ( or consent ) and due Ordination ( or Consecration ) . But here now comes in I know not what and how much more , Confirmation , Vocation , Mission , Iurisdiction . All hard words : Had I put him but to have told us the meaning of these also , what work should I have made him ? 1. What is Confirmation without which Qualifications , Election and Ordination make not a true Minister or Bishop ? O that we knew it . 2. What is Vocation besides the three aforesaid , and which is necessary ad esse ? 3. And what is Mission besides those three , which is also so necessary ? 4. And what meaneth he by Iurisdiction that was wanting ? was it the Iurisdiction of the Collator , or of the Receiver ; not the former , for we never knew that God gave any Jurisdiction to the Clergy , but the Pastoral power of guiding the Churches by the Word and Keys ; which is the work of their own office ; and the office of the Ordainer is ●…o ordain ; and if he have power to Ordain ( or Consecrate ) he hath that Jurisdiction which consisteth of that power . If it be the Receivers Jurisdiction that he meaneth , that is the same contradiction . For to ordain one to the Pastoral office , is to give him all the jurisdiction which is part of that office . And for any other jurisdiction we wish Princes would keep it both from the ordainers and the ordained . But he saith that our Bishops wanted Episcopal Election . Is it come to that , and yet the way of Election all this while made so indifferent ? What is Episcop●…l Election ? not an Election by Bishops , that you affirm not : Not an election to be Bishops ; that you deny them not . It is therefore such an Election as is necessary to the being of a Bishop . And what is that ? why all that we have been able to extort from you is , That it be done by Christians capable to know fit persons , choosing freely according to the word of God. But what it is that is according to the Word of God , and what measure of consonancy to the Word , and in what points is necessary ad esse , you durst never tell us : And we say that our Bishops were chosen by Christians capable of knowing fit persons . I confess that it is my own judgment that they should have the choice or consent of the people whom they are to oversee ( and of the Presbyters where there are any under them ) and so thought your own Bishops for above 600 years , even when Gregory 1st . wrote his Epistles : But if you had asserted that , it would do more to unpope and unbishop your Church , than to disprove ours . But he saith that the Capitula had the power of electing Bishops , and of constituting Parish-Priests in such places as wanted them , Ans. 1. Suppose they had : you say no particular Electors act is necessary ad esse ; and why theirs ? 2. But quo jure , by what right could one Dean and Chapter of a City elect an Overseer of many hundred Parish-priests , and many score or hundred thousand souls , without their consent ? You dare not say that God gave them that power ; and if man did it , what men were they ? If you say that they were men that had more power in England than the King. Parliament , and the consenting people , you must prove it . If you lay it on any foreign power , Pope and Council , we will deny their power here and herein . What man doth , man may undo . 3. But indeed your meer Capitular Election is null and contrary to Gods Word , and the ancient custom of the Churches . By Gods Word , the consent of the Flock , and of the ordainers and of the ordained , made a Pastor , Bishop or Presbyter . By the customs of the Churches in the Empire , sometime the greatest neighbour-Bishops assumed the power , and sometimes Councils overtopt them all , and undid what they did , and sometimes the Emperours put in and out as pleased them ( as Solomon put out Abiathar . ) But always the peoples election or acceptance was necessary . For instance ; when Gregory Nazianzene had confuted the Macedonians and Arrians , and encreased the Church at Constantinople , though the Arrian Bishop since Valens time kept the great Church , Gregory had a little one , and was chosen their Bishop by the Orthodox people alone . This was his first title . After that , Peter Bishop of Alexandria made him Bishop quantum in se , or confirmed him ; this was his additional title . After this , the same Peter bribed by money , without recalling his former grant , made Maximus ( a right seeker of a Bishoprick , as the world hath since gone ) bishop in his stead : the people refused the change , and retained Gregory . Afterward Maximus got both Peter and the Egyptian bishops to make him bishop of Constantinople ( where was the Pope all this while ? ) the people still kept close to Gregory . Afterward Theodosius the Emperor ( returning from the West ) puts Gregory in possession of the great Church , and turneth out the Arrians , and confirmeth him bishop . After this Miletius of Antioch , and a Council at Constantinople , make Gregory bishop . After this more bishops coming in to the Council , got the major vote , and he discerning that they were resolved to depose him , departed , requesting the Emperors leave , as seeing the doleful divisions and contentiousness of the bishops , not otherwise to be quieted ; entreating the Emperor to keep them in some unity and peace , lest it should disgrace and ruin the newly reformed Church . And the Council * made Nectarius bishop ( the Pope in all this never minded ) . By this one instance you may see how bishops were then made in the greater places ; though in lesser , the election of the people and Presbyters , and the ordination of three neighbour-bishops did suffice , according to the ancient rule and custom . But he saith , That the old bishops were living , and not legally deposed . Ans. 1. Sub judicelis est ; we say they were . 2. Some deserted . 3. An illegal removal of the former , doth not ever nullisie the title of the latter , viz. when the flock consenteth to the change , &c. else what seat is there that hath not had their succession interrupted and corrupted ? but none more than Rome , and Constantinople , and Alexandria ; What poysonings , fightings , unjust depositions and schisms , have made way for successions ? Is your Papacy therefore null ? But methinks it is a strange novelty that he makes the Capitula to have had the right of chusing ( not only the bishops , but ) all the Parish-priests : to say nothing of the Patrons or the Princes power ( which I think is as good as the Chapter . ) who knoweth not that the bishops and the people did always chuse the Presbyters , and not the Chapters ? But he saith that they were intruded by Seculor Power . Ans. And were not your Popes so ordinarily , till Hildebrand got the better of the Emperor ? But we had more than this . R. B. Your Popes have not the consent of the most of the Christians in the world ; nor ( for ought you or any man knows ) of most in Europe . W. J. Of what Christians ? such as you and your associates are ? We regard that no more than did the ancient holy Popes , not to have bad the consent of the Nestorians , Eutychians , Pelagians , Donatists , Arrians , &c. R. B. Contempt of most of the body of Christ , is one of the great proofs that you are all the Church : And did not the Donatists say the same before you ? And what but the sword doth make your cause to be better than theirs ? How easie is it for any Sect to say , We are the only Church of Christ ; and though most of the Christian world be against us , we regard them not ? Reader , mark the truth and c●…ndor of these men ! When we tell them that the Greeks , Armenians , Syrians , Iacobites , Georgians , Copties , Abassines , are of the same Church with us ( because they have the same Head , and the same essential faith ) , the Papists ( in their talk and writings ) tell us , that they are more of their mind than of ours ; and that indeed they are not Hereticks , but well-meaning-men . But when we tell them then how two or three parts of the Church is against their Popes pretended universal power , they number all these then with Hereticks , as not to be regarded . But abundance of their own Writers , yea such as have lived among them at Ierusalem and other parts , do vindicate the generality of these foreign Christians from the charge of Heresie . 2. But doth not the world know , that a man is supposed to be rightful Pope as soon as the Cardinals ( an upstart sort of things ) have chosen him , before ever any of the people of Europe , even Papists , do consent ? But perhaps hee 'l say , that the people consent that these shall be the chusers ; sure they did not so till Hildebrands days ; nor since any otherwise than by silence or non-resistance , where they have no places to speak , nor power to resist , even as the Countrey-men consent to the conquering Armies that oppress them . R. B. It 's few of your own people that know who is Pope ( much less are called to consent ) till after he is setled in possession . W. J. What then ? Is not the same in all elective Princes , where the extent of their Dominions is exceeding large ? R. B. 1. I confess when we have an Elective King of all the world , I had rather Cardinals chuse him at Rome , than all the world should meet to chuse him . And if Christ had made us a King or Bishop of all the world , he would have told us who must chuse him , to save the men at the Antipodes their journey . 2. But why pretend you then the peoples consent , when you plead it unnecessary ? In Poland , that their Diets chuse their Kings , is from a known reason ; it is the Constitution of their Kingdom , which the people agreed to , and chuse many of the chusers . But when did the Universal Church constitute your Cardinals to be the Electors ? Or which of the Cardinals are chosen by the Universal Church , or any other than the Pope himself ? God made Bishopricks like Corporations , where all may chuse the Mayor : Who made them like great Kingdoms , or set one over all the world ( where the people cannot chuse , nor God made any chusers ) , is the question ? R. B. 4. According to this rule your successions have been frequently interrupted , when against the will of General Councils , and of the far greatest part of Christians , your Popes have kept the seats by force . W. J. These are generalities : What Popes ? What Councils in particular ? Name and prove , if you will he answered . R. B. What disgraceful ignorance are you forced to pretend ? What need I go over your Schisms ? What need I name any more than Eugenius the 4th deposed by a great General Council , and two or three parts of the Church disowning your Pope at this day ? R. B. I told him how his instance even about Civil Power failed , seeing the consent of a people pre-engaged to their Prince , giveth not right to a Usurper . W. J. The people cannot be supposed to consent freely and lawfully to an usurper , &c. R. B. Lawfully indeed they cannot , and that 's the same thing that I affirmed : you confute me by granting what I say . When the Bishop of Rome hath a lawful election to be Bishop of all the world , we will obey him ; and so we will any Prelate or Priest that hath a known lawful election . R. B. Will any Diocess suffice ad esse ? What if it be but in particulor Assemblies ? W. J. It must be more than a Parish , or than one single Congregation , which hath not different inferior Pastors , and one who is their Superior , &c. R. B. 1. How ambiguously and fraudulently do you answer ? No man can tell by this whether you unbishop all that had but one Parish or Congregation ; or only all that had not Presbyters under them ? Which ever you mean , it is notoriously false , and a nullifying of the ancient Episcopacy . Ignatim tells you , that in hi●… days one Church was known by one Altar , and one Bishop , with the Presbyters and Deacons . And though I think not as Dr. Hamond , that all the first . Bishops in Scripture-times were setled as the sole Pastors of single Congregations , without any Presbyters under them ; yet when you consider with whom he agreeth in this , viz. Dionysius Petavius , and what St. Clara saith for it , fathering it on Scotus , we think you should not so far differ from your own Doctors , as to deny all those to be true Bishops of the Scrip●…re-times , who they think were the only Bishops . You have a custom of calling the Apostles Bishops , even Peter Bishop of Antioch and Rome ; Did not those first Bishops then make all the Presbyters that were under them ? Qu. Whether they were no Bishops till they had made those Presbyters ? If no , then those first Presbyters had not Episcopal ordination : If yea , then habetur quaesitum . The truth is , all the ancientest Bishops were the Pastors of single Churches , not near so big as many of our Parishes : I have elsewhere proved this at large . I instanced to him only in Gregory Neoc●…sariensis , who was Bishop only of Seventeen souls , when he came thither first . He answereth : W. J. How know you that there were no more in the Countrey adjacent ? 2. Know you not that he was sent to multiply Christians , and make himself a competent Diocess ? R. B. I know the first by the consent of History ; that telleth us of the Seventeen in the City over whom he was set , and speaketh of no more in such circumstances as would have occasioned it . 2. And I believe your second : but do not you see that you desert your Cause ? and contradict your self ? 1. Speak out : Was he the bishop of the Infidels ? Were they his Church ? Or was he only to convert and gather them to the Church ? 2. Was he not a Bishop there ( before he had converted any one ) to those seventeen alone ? You dare deny none of this . Therefore he was a Bishop before he had more Congregations than one , and before he had any Presbyters to govern . And here you may see how the changes that Popes and their Prelates have made in the Church , constraineth them to defend them by subverting their own foundation . For if those were no Bishops who had but one Congregation , yea and those that had no subject-Presbyters , then the first ages ( if not also the second , except in Rome and Alexandria ) had no true Bishops , or at least the founders were not such ; and their Episcopacy , as they describe it , hath no succession from the Apostles . Truth and Error will never make a close coalition . CHAP. V. Q. What mean you by TRADITION ? W. I. I Understand by Tradition the visible delivery from hand to hand in all cases , of the revealed will of God either written or unwritten . R. B. I suppose by visible from hand to hand , you mean principally of the unwritten ( audible from ear to ear by speech ) . But all the doubt is , by whom it must be delivered , by the Pastors or people , or both ? by the Pope , or Councils , or Bishops disjunct ? by the major part of the Church , Bishops or Presbyters ? or by how many ? W. J. By such and so many proportionably as suffice in a Kingdom to certifie the people which are the ancient universal received customs in that Kingdom , which is to be morally considered . R. B. O wary Disputant ! that taketh heed lest you should answer while you seem to answer ! Reader , a Kingdom is not so big as all the world ! The Customs of a Kingdom may be known by the constant consent of the people of that Kingdom ; and if they differ about it , Records and Law-booke decide it expositorily , and judges by the decision of particular mens cases by such rules . But can customs be known as well over all the world ? Yea , and can matter of faith and doctrine be as easily known as practised customs ? Can we know as easily what are the Traditions of Abassia , Armenia , Syria , Egypt , &c. as of England ? Can they of Abassia tell what are the true Traditions of all the Christian world , that have Traditions in their own Countrey so different from ours ? They have many books as sacred among them by tradition , which we receive not . They have annual Baptism , and other ceremonies by Tradition , which we account to be unlawful . Here I told W. I. 1. How certainly Tradition is against them , when most of the Christian world deny the Popes Soveraignty , and that as by tradition . And how lame their tradition is which is carried but by their private affirmation , and is but the unproved saying of a Sect. To this he saith : W. J. That this belongs to our Controversie , and not to the explication of our terms . And so I must pass it by . R. B. Q. 2. What proof or notice must satisfie as in particulars , what is true tradition ? W. J. Such as with proportion is a sufficient proof or notice of the Laws and Customs of temporal Kingdoms . R. B. But you durst not tell us what that is that is proportionable . This was answered before . I added , Is it necessary for every Christian to be able to weigh the credit of contradicting-parties ? When one half of the world say one thing , and the other another thing , what opportunity have ordinary Christians to compare them , and discern the moral advantages on each side ? As in the case of the Popes Soveraignty , when two or three parts are against it , and the rest for it : Doth salvation lye on this ? W. J. As much as they have to know which books are , and which are not Canonical Scripture among those that are in controversie . R. B. That these books were sent to the Churches from the Apostles , 1. Is a matter of fact . 2. And an assertion easily remembred . 3. And all the Churches are agreed of all that we take as Ca●…cal . 4. And yet men that practically believe but the Creed and Summaries of Religion , shall certainly be saved , though they erroneously doubted of some of the uncontroverted books ( as Chronicles , Esther , Canticles , &c. ) much more that receive not the controverted Apocrypha . But 1. Your Traditions in question are many particulars , hard for to be remembred . 2. And that of matter of faith and fact , where a word forgotten or altered , changeth the thing . 3. And most Christians in the world are against it . 4. And you would lay the peoples salvation on it ; yea , and make it one of your cheating quibbles , to prove your religion safer than ours , because some Protestants say a Papist may be saved , but you say that Protestants cannot be saved ( that is , because you have less sincerity and charity ) . Is not here difference enough ? If you hold that all they are damned that believed not that all the Apocryphal books were Canonical , peruse Bishop Cousins Catalogue of Councils and Fathers that received them not , and see whether you damn not almost all the Church . But if you confess that there is no more necessity to salvation for men to be the subjects of your Pope , than there is that they try all the Apocrypha whether it be Canonical , and know it ; why then do you found your belief that Christ is the Son of God , upon your forebelieving that the Pope is his Vicar , or your Church his Church ? And why do you make such a stir in the world to affright poor people to believe and be subject to your Pope ? I here asked him . Must all the people here take the words of their present Teacher ? And he durst not answer yea or nay , but as much as they do for the determination of Canonical Scriptures . Ans. If it be no more , it giveth them no certainty : but by the belief of one man as a Teacher , they are broug●…●…o ●…cern themselves those notifying evidences by which the Teacher himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 books are 〈◊〉 . And if they attain no higher than to believe fide D●… the 〈◊〉 Doctrines , the doubting or ignorance of some texts or books , will not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Scripture that impress of Divine authority , which to a prepared hea●… o●… reader will 〈◊〉 convince him that they are of God , though not r●…e him of every particular Text and Book . R. B. Then most of the world must believe against you , because most of the teachers are against you . Tradition quite ●…eth P●…er ) . W. J. There is no Congregation of Christians united in the same profession of faith , external Communion and dependance of Pastors , which is contrary in belief ●…o 〈◊〉 , any way to be parallel with us in extent and multitude . Prove there is , and name it . All our adversaries together are a patcht body of a thousand different professions , and as much adversaries one to another as they are to us ; the one justifying us in that , wherein the other condemn us ; so that no beed is to be taken to their testimonies ; non sunt convenientia . R B. They agree not with your interest : But if the Testimonies and Tradition of two or three parts of the Christian world , be not to be heeded . I doubt the testimony of your third or fourth part will prove much less regardable . Let us try the case , for here you are utterly confounded , 1 Indeed none that our ordinary language calleth a Congregation , that is , men that meet locally together , are so big as all your party : But a Church far better united than you are , is far greater than yours . Those that have all the Essentials of the one Church of Christ , are that one Church of Christ : But the Reformed Churches , the Greeks , Armenians , Abassines , Syrians , Iacobites , Georgians , Copties , &c. have all the Essentials of the one Church of Christ ▪ Therefore they are that one Church of Christ. The Major is undeniable . The Minor is thus proved , They that hold the same Head of the Church , believing in the same God the Father , Son and ●…ly G●…st , and are devoted to him in the same Baptismal Covenant , and believe all the Articles of faith , desire and practice essential to Christianity , in the Creed , Lords-prayer and Decalogue , and recei●…e all the ●…re as Gods ●…ord , which i●…●…y here received by us as Canonical , these have all the ●…ls of the one Church of Christ ( and much more ) But such are all the forementioned Christians : Ergo , &c. The Head and the Body are the constitutive parts of the Church : The Head is Christ , the Body are Christians 1. They are united in the same profession of faith ; viz. the same Baptism ●…reed and Scriptures . 2. They are united in the same external communion , if you mean external worship of God in all the Essentials of it , and much more . They have the same Scriptures read and 〈◊〉 they preach the same Gospel ; they use the same Sacraments of the Covenant of Grace , viz. Baptism and the Lords Supper ; yea they are commonly for some Confirmation , Ordination 〈◊〉 of penitence and absolution of P●…nitents , Matrimony , &c. though they agree not whether the name of Sacraments be fit for them all , much less Sacraments of the Cove●… Grace ; they observe the same Lords day for publick worship ; they pray , confess sin , give thanks and praises to God ; and hold the communion of Saints , and communication to each other in want . This is their external communion . 3. They have the same depen●… of the people on their Pastors , as the Ministers of Christ , authorized to 〈◊〉 and guide the Churches , and to go before them in the publick worshipping of God. But if you mean that they have not the same ext●… communion of Pastors in dependance on one as the 〈◊〉 Pastor or Governour of all the rest ; indeed there is none such but you . For it is in that that they differ from you . Reader is not here an excellent Disputer ? I affirm that the judgment of most of the Christian world is against the Papists ▪ in the point of an Universal Head or Governour of all Churches . He saith that no one party which is for an Universal Governour , and yet is against an Universal Governour , is so big as their party . I grant it . Had they all dependance on one as an Universal Governour , they were not against on Universal Governour . The Abassines have one Abuna , but he claimeth no Universal Government . The Armenians have their Catholick Bishop but he claimeth no Universal power . The Greeks have their Patriarch at Constantinople , but he pretendeth not to govern all the World. We are all against any Head of the whole Church on Earth but Christ , and therefore are united under no other . You say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 patcht body of a thousand different professions , &c. Ans Reproach not the Body of Christ ▪ they are far more united than your Church as Papal . Are not the se●…en points of 〈◊〉 mentioned by Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 ▪ as good as yours ▪ 1. They have one ●…ead that never ●…arieth , and whom all receive ▪ you have a Head rejected by most Christians , and oft turn'd into two or three Heads , one saying I am the Head , and another I am the Head , and setting the world in blood and contention to try it out which of them shall get the better , as your forty years Schisms shewed . 2. Therefore this Church which you reproach as patcht , is but one : But yours is really many and not one , specifically , as well as oft numerically ; when there were two or three Popes , you had two or three Churches . For it is the pars imperans that individuateth the Society . And de specie , you are still three Churches , as holding three several heads : one holdeth the Pope to be the Head , another a Council , and a third the Pope and Council agreeing : And these Heads have oft condemned and deposed one another , Councils namned Popes as Hereticks , Infidels , Simonists , Murderers , Adulterers ; and Popes accused Councils of schism and rebellion at least . And to this day there is no certainty which were true Popes , nor which were true Councils , some being called by you Reprobate , because they pleased not the Popes , and some approved . But our Head of the Church is not thus divided , nor schismatical . 3 Our common faith is still the same , and its rule the same ; but yours is mutable by new additions , as long Councils will make new Decrees , and no man can tell when you have all and your faith is come to its full stature : Nay , and your Decrees which are your rule of faith are so many and obscure , that you are not agreed your selves in the number or the meaning of them . 4. It is a notorious truth that all these Churches which you say have a thousand professions ( as they all agree in one Christian profession , so ) do less differ among themselves , than your seemingly united Church doth with it self ; whether you respect the number or the weight of differences . 1. For the Number , sint libri judices ; all the Christian World besides hath not so many ( nor I think half so many ) Volumes of Controversies , as your Writers have written against one another , ( as far as is come to the notice of this part of the World. ) 2. And for the Weight , 1. I have shewed that you are divided in your very Fundamentals , the Supremacy ; you confess here that your Church is not at all agreed what the Christian faith is , or who is a Christian : some say , he that believeth the Church , and that God is a rewarder ; others say , a Christian must believe in Christ , &c. 2. Your Commentators differ about the sense of hundreds or thousands of Texts of Gods own word 3. Your Disputers about Grace and Free-will , accuse one the other of making God the cause of Sin , and of denying the Grace of God. 4. Your Moralists differ about many instances of Excommunicating Kings , and then killing them , and of the Popes power to depose them ; and of perjury , lying , murder , adultery , fornication , false witness , yea about loving God himself , whether it be necessary to love him once a year , or whether attrition , that is repentance from bare fear , with penance , may not serve turn to Salvation , with abundance such . And we confess that other Christians have their differences ! And what wonder while they are so imperfect in knowledg , and all grace ? And now if Concord or Discord must tell us whose Tradition or Judgment is most regardable , let the Impartial judg whether the mo●…●…egardable Tradition of the far greatest part of the Church be not against you ? and whether your reproaching them for discord , condemn not your selves much more than them . If a subject should stile himself the Kings Vicegerent , and claim much of his Prerogative without his Commission and a third part of the Kingdom should unite in receiving and obeying him , and have otherwise a thousand contentions among them ; Qu. Whether these or the rest of the Kingdom were the more and better united ? When I next questioned , Whether the vulgar that know not Councils , resolve not their faith into the belief of the Parish-priest ? he saith no. And saith , That the Priest is but the means by whom we come to believe , and tells us that else we know not whether there were any Christians 500 years ago , &c. Ans. But if they will be content with Ministerial teaching , and Historical proof of things past , we would not differ from them ; we do not only assert these as well as they , but we say that as we have sounder teaching , so we have far better Historical Tradition of our faith , than that which dependeth on a pretended fan●…tick Infallibility , or authority of their Pope and Sect ; even the Historical Tradition of the whole Christian World , and of many of the enemies themselves . CHAP. VI. What mean you by a GENERAL COUNCIL ? W. I. A General Council I take to be an Assembly of Bishops , and other chief Prelates , called , convened , confirmed , by those who have sufficient spiritual authority to call , convene and confirm it . R. B. Here is nothing still but flying and hiding : his cause is such that he dare not answer . Note that , 1. Here is no mention of what extent it must be at all , whether these Prelates must be sent from all the Christian world ? or whence ? The least Provincial Council that ever was called , may be a General Council by this description . 2. He tells us of other chief Prelates , and yet never tells what sort of things he meaneth by chief Prelates , that are no Bishops . And when he hath told us , doubtless he will never prove ( nor I hope affirm ) that any such Prelates are of Christs institution . And if the matter of General Councils be not of Divine right , whether such Councils can be of Divine right , I leave to censure . A Council of humane Officers , is but a humane Council ; and yet he leaveth out , yea excludeth Presbyters who are of Gods institution . 3. He tells us not who it is that must call , convene and confirm them . And he had reason for it : lest he reprobate all those that were otherwise called . Here therefore I first asked : Q. 1. Who is it ( ad esse ) that must call , convene and confirm it ? Till I know that , I am never the nearer knowing what a Council is , and which is one indeed . W. J. Definitions abstract from inferior Subdivisions : For your satisfaction I affirm , it belongs to the Bishop of Rome . R. B. This you must needs say for your cause sake : But he justifieth his definition as having a sufficient Genus [ An Assembly ] and [ Differentia ] [ Bishops and chief Prelates convened , &c. ] Ans. You do ill to refuse all disputes but what are exactly Logical , ( which is your custom for advantage to amuse the women ) if your Logick be no better , should not a Relative Assembly be defined by its subject , fundamentum & terminus ? 1. Your Genus is too general ; it should have been a nearer Genus . 2. Your subject is partly false ( as taking in besides Bishops , other chief Prelates , and excluding Presbyters ) , and partly ambiguous , what [ other chief Prelates ] you mean ? and specially too narrow , not at all differencing this Council from any inferior Synod . 3. Here is no end or terminus expressed , and so no difference put between a Council , and an Assembly of Prelates called , for any common civil use , as if it were but to choose or attend a Prince . 4. Here is no just notice of the fundamentum , or the ratio fundandi ; the true fundamentum is totally omitted , which is the mutual consent , 1. of the Churches chusing and sending their Bishops or Delegates ; 2. of the Bishops to go in that Relation ; 3. of all the Bishops to convene and agitate conciliar business for the proper ends . And a fundamentum is mentioned , which is , 1. Insufficient and as nothing ; being but a Genus [ called by those that have sufficient authority , ] instead of a species in your own opinion , who think that the Authority is only in the Pope . 2. And when you so explain your self , it is false , as shall he shewed . 5. Yea the very formal Relation is not mentioned ; which is the relation which the assembled members have to the Churches which they represent , and to each other , and to the intended end and work . So that here is a definition that is no definition , nor hath any thing like a definition , yet defended by this great disputer : Nor can any man tell what a General Council is by it . And how can we dispute intelligibly , when you can no better explain your terms ? Here I urged , from his making the Popes call , convening and confirmation , necessary ad esse , that this nullifieth the chief Councils called General ; this he denieth to be true . To which instead of transcribing long Histories , I only say , that whoever readeth the true Histories of the calling and convening of the Councils at Nice , Constantinople , ( divers ) at Ephesus , the first and second , yea that at Calcedon , though Leo desired it of the Emperour , and many others in those ages , and yet will not confess that most of them were called by the Emperours special command , sometime requiring the Bishop of Alexandria to call them , sometime the Bishop of Constantinople , and sometime writing or sending to all the Patriarchs , or most , to come and send their Bishops , and usually also to his Civil and Military Officers to concur , and to be Judges ; I shall not think that man fit to be disputed with about such matters , who hath the face to contradict such consent of History and Records . R. B. Q. 2. Must it not represent all the Catholick Church ? Doth not your definition agree to a Provincial or the smallest Council ? W. J. My definition speaks specifically of Bishops and those Prelates , as contradistinct from the inferior Pastors and Clergy , and thereby comprized all the Priests contained in the species , and consequently makes a distinction from the National or particular Councils , where some Bishops are only conven'd , no●… all ; that being only some part , and not the whole speci●… , or specifical notion applied to Bishops of every age : and yet I said not all Bishops , but Bishops and chief Prelates ; because though all are to be called , yet it is not necessary that all should come . R. B. O what a disadvantage is an ill Cause ! The man is so confounded , that the further he goeth , the worse he makes it . 1. He must needs intimate that it is all the Church that must be represented , and yet he durst not speak that out . 2. He intimateth , that his speaking specifically of Bishops and Prelates , is equivalent to all Bishops and Prelates . 3. He intimateth , that naming Bishops as contradistinct from inferior Pastors and Clergy , was necessary to difference a General Council from a National or other ; as if a National or Provincial one might not consist of Bishops only ; or as if the inferior Clergy might not be of a General one , as they oft have been . 4. He makes the difference here to be , that some bishops are convened , not all ; when yet he after saith , that all come not to General Councils . 5. Our question being , What constitut●… a General Council ? He saith , It is All the Bishops , and 〈◊〉 All are not there , though ●…alled . As if those that come not , were any part of the Council . 6. He would perswade us , that yet he well left out the word ALL , though it must be all that are ●…alled because they come not : To this I further answered him , That then you have had no General Councils , much less can you have any more : for you have none to represent the greatest part of the Church , unless by a mock representation . 〈◊〉 . If all must be called , your Councils were not General , a great part of the Church being ●…t called . W. J. We are ●…ow bu●… explicating terms — — that all were not called , is denied . R. B. Then let never modesty forbid you to deny any thing . I have elsewhere proved against Mr. Hutch●…son , that your Councils were generali , but as to the Roman Empire ; and seldom , if ever , so much as that . 1. Had the Emperors ( who certainly called them ) any power to call any of other Princes Dominions ? 2. Doth any History mention that ever the Emperors did so ? 3. Did the Pope of Rome call to the Councils at Nice , Constantinople , Ephesus , Calcedon ▪ &c. all the Bishops of all the extra-Imperial Churches ? 4. Were the businesses there agitated , any of theirs ? 5. Were any Concilia●… Decrees executed on them ? Any extra-Imperial Bishops put in or out , or suspended by them ? 6. Were all the bishops of the Greek Churches , of the Armenians , and all other Southern and Eastern Nations , called to the Councils at Trent , Lateran , & c. ? What is it that some will not pretend ? 7. Were it not an impudent thing for any man to call together all the Bishops in the world ? If it be not desired that they come , why are they called ? Ludicrous hypocrisies beseem not matters of this moment . If it be desired only that they ch●…e some few among the rest , it is the chusing of those few only that should be required . But if all be intended , the Devil could scarce make a more 〈◊〉 motion . What! for all the Bishops on Earth , 1. To forsake their charges , most of them for many years . 2. To lose so many years time in Travel and Session . 3. To lose the lives of so , many as are never like to endure Voyages and journies by Sea and Land so long , with strange air and other difficulties , &c. But why should I stay to shame such madness ? when though W. I. be fain to vent it , their Sect never intended nor attempted any such thing●… . But suppose it were but some delegate Bishops that he pleaded for to make an Universal Council , I have shewed in the 2d part of my Book called , A Key for Catholicks , how impossible and wicked the design of a true Universal Council is . For , 1. They must be so many from all parts of the world as may make it an equal Representative , and not two or three from the remotest part , and 200 from Italy and other nearer parts , or else it is a putid mockery . 2. Some Churches have a 100 Bishops over so many Christians , as in other Countries are under one only . Most report that in all Abassia there is but one Abuna ; which though it be not now so big as it hath been , or as Alvarez saith , yet is like to be as big as Brierwood concludeth , viz. as France , Spain , Italy and Germany . And should that one Abuna leave his Country to have no more vote than Pate or Ola●… Magnus had at Trent . 3. Most of the Christian world have not half so many able Teachers as they need , especially the remotest parts : and it would be cruelty to the peoples souls to call away from them proportionable representatives . 4 None are so fit men for the great business of Councils , as the ablest , boliest , experienced Bishops ; and these are most of them aged , sickly and weak , and unfit for so long travels . 5. Abassia 〈◊〉 not Sea-ports , and the Armenians and other Nations are out of the reach of such necessary converse , as must duly warn all of the time and place . 6. The Bishops are under Princes of such various Religions , minds and interests , as they could never agree to a true Council Would the Turk that is an enemy to Christianity , give leave to the Greek Bishops proportionably to come ? Would the Countries that are in War with those that send them , give them a free passage ? 7. The time would be so long in passing from Abassia , Armenia , St. Thomas , Mexico ▪ the Antipodes , and staying at the Council and returning , that few were like to come home alive ; and so the Bishops are murdered , and the Countries receive not any just account of their transactions . 8. When they come together , the number would be so great , as that they could not hear what was said by one another . 9. And many would understand and speak no one common language with the rest , and so be uncapable of that right understanding and communication as is necessary to the end . 10. And their judgments and interests would be so cross , as would render the Council too like a pitcht field ; and when they had wearied themselves to go home to the further parts of the world with no better an account , but that they were over-voted by a greater number of Europeans , who living near and under the Pope were awed by his power , or by assed by interest , what good would this do the Countries that sent them . And all this wicked and impossible design ariseth from the idle brains of men , without any true usefulness or need , or any ground of Gods word or reason ; only because in one Empire there were oft such things as General Councils , which yet were like to fields of War , and had torn the Imperial Churches all to pieces , had not some Emperours done much to keep the peace : so that Pighius saith , That General Councils themselves were but a new devise of Constantine , and not of Gods institution , nor of necessity . R. B. I next asked of him , If all must be called , and but some come , whether th●…se that never come there ( through distance , age , prohibition of Princes , poverty , &c ▪ ) be any parts of the Council ? and so whether it be General , because those should come that do not ? If that will serve , what if none come when all are called ? He answereth : W. J. As it is a true Parliament if a competent number come , when all are called — ●…o here . R. B. 1. The validity of a few mens acts , cometh from the fundamental Constitution , which is as the Law to them . But who made such a Law for all the world ? If God did , shew it to us ▪ if man , who ? and by what power ? Whether all be right and valid that is done in a Parliament , or not , when few are there , yet it is certain the rest are absent . Parliaments meet and act under Laws ; but Councils meet as Equals upon meer and voluntary consent . The Law may oblige all the Land by that which a few men do : but if there be a meeting , e. g. as now at N●…mengen , of the Agents of free Princes , who can oblige ten by the acts of two without their consent ? However , if only Europeans be at the Council , it 's certain that Africans , Asians , and Americans are absent : and if absent , their judgment and consent is not there signified : and therefore if your question be only de nomine , whether forty bishops may be called a General Council , while the rest are far off ? Or if it be whether the Laws or Canons of a small or Provincial Council , may oblige some men , though it were not general ? These are nothing to our present business . 2. Moreover , were all the world under the Popes or any other mens Laws , yet they could not be bound to wickedness , self-murder , neglect of their flocks , and to impossibilities : Therefore if ( e. g ) there were forty bishops , or forty two at Trent in the beginning , and 200 after , and perhaps 20000 absent that were never obliged to be there , the question is both whether this was an universal meeting , and whether the 20000 were obliged by the Acts of the 40 or 200 3. And if they were obliged , what 's that to notifie the , Tradition of all the absent Churches ? Can you know their minds and customs , by saying that they were obliged by the Decrees ? R. B. Q. 4. May none but Bishops and chief Prelates be members ( as you say ? ) W. J. No other , unless such Inferiors as are sent to supply their places , and as Deputies of those Bishops or Prelates , &c. R. B. Note here , 1. He determineth no others , but never tells us quâ lege , and who it is that made that Law to all the world . And it 's known that the Apostles , Elders and Brethren were ●…senters at Ierusalem , Act 15. 2. Inferiors may come as Deputies of the Bishops ; for he knew that the Bishop of Rome had oft sent such to Councils so far off as his gravity would not suffer him to go to . But are these Priests capable persons or not ? If not , how can a Bishops deputation make them capable ? what if a Priest depute a Lay-man to consecrate the Eucharist ? or a Bishop depute a Priest or Deacon only to ordain ? will the deputation make them capable ? but if they are capable , why may they not be there by their own right ? If the business of Councils be as much as our modern Papists tell us , to transmit the Traditions which the several Countries have received from their Ancestors , why may not ten learned grave Priests as truly and credibly tell what are the Traditions of their Country , as one unlearned ( or learned ) Bishop . 3. Note here how the highest acts of a Pope or Prelate with them may be done per alios , by Deputies that are no Bishops . To preside in General Councils was of old in the Empire the top of the Popes prerogative , and yet he may do that by a Presbyter ; and a Bishop may vote and do all his part in a General Council by a Presbyter . And is that an office properly Ecclesiastical and Sacred , which may be exercised by others not of that office ? why then may not a Lay-man be deputed to preach , baptize , pray , consecrate and administer the Eucharist , excommunicate , absolve , &c. if deputed ? And if so , what is proper to the office ? I told him of the Council of Basil , where were a multitude of Priests : And he answereth : W. J. Basil in many things is not allowed of by us ; name those others received as General Councils by us that had simple Priests with power of giving Votes as such . R. B. See Reader , when they have talkt of Councils and Traditions of all the Church , &c. all signifieth but what please the Pope , and his dislike can make Councils and their judgments null at a word . Basil was one of the greatest Councils that ever was ; but they condemned and deposed the Pope , and no wonder then if the Pope dislike them ; and now that 's an answer to all such authority , Basil is not allowed by us . Nor is any thing allowed by you that is against you . But if any of them would see where Priests have had Votes in Councils , let them read Blondel in the end of his Def. Sent. Hieron . and he shall have proof enough . For I will not tire the Reader with vain citations , done by many long ago . Only I note , 1. If Abbots that are no Bishops have Votes in Councils , why not Priests ? saving the Popes will , what makes the difference ? ( 2d ) If Presbyters may have Votes in National and Provincial Councils , why not in General ones ? the will of the Pope makes and unmakes all . Thus we have no satisfaction what a General Council is . CHAP. VII . What mean you by [ SCHISME . ] W. J. I understand by Schism , a wilful separation , or division of ones self from the whole visible Church of Christ. R. B. If this only be Schism it 's comfortable news to many a thousand and million that some call Schismaticks . I hope then there are no Schismaticks in England , of those that are called Presbyterians , Erastians , Independents , Separatists , or Anabaptists : For I know not one of these that separateth from the whole visible Church of Christ. But I doubt with these Judges the Church of Rome goes for the whole visible Church of Christ. I asked here . Q. 1. Is it no Schism to separate from a particular Church , unless from the whole ? W. J. No ; it is no Schism , as Schism is taken in the Holy Fathers , for that great and Capital Crime , so severely censured by them , in which sense only I take it here . R. B. 1. He first defineth without distinguishing , and then tells us that he means only one sort of Schism . 2. Let the Reader but peruse all the Texts of Scriptures which mention Schism , and see whether he will not find , that every Text , or almost every one , do use the Word only of Divisions made in the Church , rather than of dividing , or separating from the Church ; and whether such separating from the whole Church , be not there called Heresie rather than Schism . But seeing it is only this Capital Schism that he calleth by that name , I have no mind to draw him now to more censoriousness , and therefore I noted how by this he absolveth the Protestants from the guilt of Schism . W. J. Did not your first Protestants in Germany separate as much from the Armenians , Ethiopians , Greeks , as they did from the Romans ? If they did not , shew the Communion they had with them . R. B. Very willingly , Sir : They had the same God , the same Saviour , the same Spirit , the same Faith , Baptism and Hope , and so were of the same Body of Christ , which is all the Union predicated by St. Paul , Eph. 4. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. They had also the same Scriptures , the same Rule of Prayer and Practice , ( the Lord's Prayer . and the Decalogue and Precepts of Christ , as well as the same Creed ) the same Love , the same Sacrament of the Eucharist , Prayses of God , the Lords day for Holy Communion , Pastors of the same Order , and had no other Diversities in such things than St. Paul tells us are in the Body of Christ , 1 Cor. 12. Is this no Communion ? W. J. Did your Ministers first take either Mission or Iurisdiction to preach , from any of their Bishops or Patriarchs ? Did they take the prescription of their Liturgies , Discipline or Hierarchy from them ? Did they upon occasion joyn in Prayer , Sacraments or Sacrifice with them ? R. B. 1. Do we hold Communion with none that we take not Mission and Iurisdiction from ? What Absurdities do you thrust upon us ? Did the Churches of Ephesus , Corinth , Galatia , Philippi , Colosse , &c. hold no Communion in Scripture-times , unless they had Mission and Iurisdiction from each other ? Must the Greeks and Armenians have Mission , &c , from us ? If not , why must we have it from them ? Your Church receiveth no Mission or Jurisdiction from others . Have you therefore no Communion with them ? Your Language favoureth of so much Tyranny and Pride , as would tempt Men indeed to take you for Anti-christian : As if Subjection to you , and Communion with you , were all one ; or you would have Communion with no Christians in the World , b●…n the relation of Servants or Subjects to you . 2. When we have Qualification , Election , and ( where it may be had ) due Ordination , we know of no other Mission necessary , besides Gods own Word which chargeth Christ's Ministers to preach the Gospel , in season and out of season , &c. God's charging all Ministers to preach , is their Mission when they are Ministers : Princes leave , and Peoples consent , do give them their opportunity ; and for Jurisdiction , we need and desire none but a Ministerial Power of guiding Souls towards Heaven by God's Word , preached and applyed : And he that ordaineth a Minister , thereby giveth him all the Jurisdiction which is necessary to his Office. If a Man be licensed a Physitian , must he have also Mission and Iurisdiction given him after , before he may practice ? 3. How could we take Ordination , Mission and Jurisdiction , from Men on the other side of the World ? What need we go so far for it when the Gospel is near us , which telleth us how God would have Ministers more easily called than so ? 4. And as for the prescript of our Liturgy , Discipline and Hierarchy , that is one of the differences between us and you : Must you needs have a Liturgy , Discipline and Hierarchy of Man's forming ? so you have : But we can live in Christian Communion with so much as Christ and his Apostles by his Spirit have prescribed us . Is there no Communion to be had with any Church , but that which hath arrived at that heighth of Pride as to make Liturgies , Discipline , and Hierarchy for all the Chrstian World ; and to suffer none to speak publickly to God , in any words but those which they write down for them to read to God ? We make no such Laws to any other Church in the World , nor do we receive any such Laws from any ; and yet we have Communion with them , fraternal and not subjective Communion . There is one Law-giver who is able to save and to destroy ; who are you that make Laws for another's Servants and judge them ? Had the Churches no Communion for the first 400 years when no Liturgies were imposed ? or when the first Law made hereabout was , but that no one should use a Form of Prayer till he had shewed it to the Synod ? No nor when Gregory's and Ambrose's Liturgies were striving for pre-eminence ? Had the Church at Neocesaria no Communion with that at Caesarea , because they had so different Liturgies , as their quarrel against Basil intimateth ? And when every Bishop used what Liturgy he pleased in his own Congregation , Was there then no Communion between the Churches ? We refuse not any meet Liturgy that is found needful to our Concord : But truly for Hierarchy and Species or Forms of Churches , and the substantials of Discipline , we earnestly wish that no Church had any but what God hath himself prescribed to them . 5. But how should we joyn with Men many hundred or thousand miles off us in Word and Sacraments , otherwise than by useing those of the same species ? We do not locally hold such Communion with the next Parishes to us , nor with many in the World ; for we cannot be in many places at once , much less can we be every Lords day in every Assembly in Ethiopia and Armenia . As for [ Sacrifice ] we know of none acceptable but the Commemmoration of Christ's Sacrifice , once offered for Sin , and the offering of our selves and our Thanksgivings , praise , and other duties to God : And why you distinguish the first from Sacraments I know not . W. J. A●…d did they profess the same Faith in all points of Faith , and those the very same wherein they dissented from the Church of Rome ? R. B. 1. Ad hominem , it might suffice to say to you , that explicitely or implicitely they did . 2. But I better answer you , We profess the same Faith in all points essential to Christianity , and in abundance more : I have told you before that we agree in all the Old Creeds , and in the truth of the Canonical Scriptures . 3. But do you Papists agree in all points of Faith ? no not by a thousand : For all is of Faith which God hath intelligibly revealed in the Holy Scriptures to be believed : But there is above a thousand intelligible Texts of Scripture about the sence of which your Commentators differ . If all Christians agree in all that is de fide , then all Christians fully understand every intelligible Word in the Scripture : And then every Woman and Rustick is as wise in Divinity as the greatest Doctors ; ( yea far are the Doctors from such Wisdom . ) W. J. If so , they may as well be said not to have separated fom the external Communion of the Roman Church . R. B. Some will tell you that we did not separate from you , but you from us ; but I must say , that the Roman Church is considered either materially as Christians , and a part of the Church of Christ , and so we neither did nor do separate from you ; or else formally as P●…pal ; and so we renounce you , and all Communion with you , as being no Church of Christ , but a Sect that treasonably usurpeth his Prerogative : The pars imperans specifieth or informeth the society : Christ only is the Universal Head of all Christians as such , and of all the Churches with which we profess Concord and Communion : In this Head Greeks , Armenians , Ethiopians , and Protestants unite . But the Pope , falsly pretending to be Christ's Vicar-General , is taken for the Universal Head by the Papists : and , in renouncing this Head , we renounce no other Church but yours . R. B. Not from you as Christians , but scandalous Offenders , whom we are commanded to avoid ; we separate not from any but as they separate from Christ. W. J. 1. No , sure , for if you did you must be Iews , Turks , or Infidels . 2. Was there no more in it ? Did not the Primitive Persons , who begun your breach and party , owe subjection to their respective Ecclesiastical Superiors , Diocesans and Pastors ? R. B. No , none at all as they were Papal , that is , the subordinate Ministers of the usurping Universal Bishop . W. J. And is it lawful for a Subject to subtract himself from the obedience of a lawful Pastor because he is a scandalous Offender ? R. B. Yes , if his Offence be a ceasing to be a lawful Pastor , and taking on him a false Office by usurpation : Or if he remained lawful , quoad hoc , as Christian , and adde a treasonable addition , we must have no Communion with him , at least in that unlawful part . W. J. If you say he remaineth not in his former Power you contradict our Saviour , commanding obedience to the scandalous Pharisees , &c. R. B. 1. The Pharisees set not up a new usurped Office of Head-ship constitutive ( pretendedly ) to the Universal Visible Church ; but only abused a lawful Office that God had made . 2. Yet Christ requireth obedience to them no farther than as they sate in Moses's Chair and delivered the Law ; but warned men to renounce them as Corrupters , and to take heed of their Doctrine . 3. And this much was but till they shewed themselves uncurable , and he set up new Officers over his Church , and then all men were to forsake the Pharisees Government . W. J. You destroy all Ecclesiastical Government , and open a way to tread under foot all temporal Authority : If you hold these Offences deprive him of all Ecclesiastical Power , why not so of Kings , and Magistrates , and Parents , and then you have spun a fair Thread , &c. R. B. Confusion may help to deceive the ignorant . 1. Your Popes , as Universal Bishops , had never true Power over us . 2. Nor any Bishops as their Ministers as such . 3. For this treasonable Usurpation we were bound to avoid them as scandalous Invaders of Christ's Prerogative , which some call Antichristian . 4. Our English Bishops , and other Pastors , when they came to see that such an Usurper had no right to govern them , forsook him , but forsook no Governour . 5. Those Bishops that adhered to him the People justly forsook as Usurpers under him . 6. Those that forsook him they obeyed as their true Pastors . And now will it follow , if I be obliged to renounce a Usurping Vice-King and Traytor , as having no power over me as such , and that I partake not of his Treason , that I must therefore forsake the King for his personal faults ? If the Deputy of Ireland should say , I am Vice-King of all the Kings Dominions , and I challenge Obedience from all the Subjects , and the King forbid us to obey him as such , I may obey him in Ireland till the King depose him , and I must renounce him in England , and yet I must not tell the King ; Sir , why must we not then for your faults also renounce you ? The scandal of Treasonable Usurpation differeth from a meer immorality or miscarriage . R. B. Qu. 2. Is it no Schism unless wilful ? W. J. No. R. B. Again , you further justifie us from Schism : If it be wilful it must be against knowledge ; But we are so far from separating wilfully from the whole Church , that we abhor the thought of it , as impious and damnable . W. J. Abhor is as much as you please , ( for your own particular ( I know not what may be pleaded for you ) I am certain that your first beginners did it , and that knowingly and wilfully ; and you , still maintaining what they began , must by all considering Christians , be judged guilty of the same Crime : for still you remain separate from all these Christians from which they departed , that is , from all the visible Churches existent immediately before they sprung up and in their time , and still continue through the whole World. R. B. A naked , bold , and shameless assertion without one word of proof . Our Reformers knew no Head of the Church but Christ ; and they neither renounced him nor any one Member of his Church as such , but only a Trayterous Usurper and his Sect ; indeed while he claimed but as Patriarch some Government of them jure humano by the Will of Princes , they gave him answerable obedience , and in their ignorance most gave him too much , and many perceived not his Usurpation : But when the Empire was down that set him up , or had no power here , and their own Princes no longer obliged them hereto , he had not so much as such a humane Authority . And when they that renounced him as a Traytor to Christ , protested to hold Communion with all Christs Church on Earth according to their distant Capacities , and to abhor all separation from them ; would not a man have expected that this Dispute should have given us some proof , that to forsake this false Head was to separate from all the visible Churches on Earth ? I proved our Union with them before : Yea he presumes to say , That he is certain that they did it knowingly and wilfully : As if he knew all the hearts of thousands whose Faces he never saw ; when they that should know them better thought that they were certain that they separated from no Christians , but an Usurper and his Adherents , as such . And this we have great reason to continue , as much as Subjects have to separate from Rebels . R. B. Qu. 3. It is no Schism if men make a division in the Church , and not from the Church ? W. J. Not as we are here to understand it , and as the Fathers treat it : For the Church of Christ , being perfectly one , cannot admit of any proper Schism within it self ; for that would divide it into two , which cannot be . R. B. 1. If there be other Schisms besides separating from the whole Church , why should you not here understand it ? unless understanding things as they are will hurt your Cause ? 2. What a stranger doth this Disputer make himself to the Fathers , if he know not that they frequently use the word Schism in another sense than his ? I will not be so vain as to trouble my self or the Reader with Citations : The Indexes of the Fathers and Councils will satisfie those that will but search them : Was it a separation from the whole Church which Clemens Romanus , the eldest of them all , doth write his Epistle to the Corinthians against , or rather a particular Schism between the people and some few eminent men ? Read it , and see what credit these men deserve when they talk of the Eathers Judgments . 3. But his reason is most unreasonable : That [ the Church of Christ is so perfectly one , that it cannot admit of any proper Schism within it self . ] Can the Unity be perfect while all our uniting Graces are imperfect ? When every Member is imperfect in Knowledge , Faith , Love , ( Holiness ) Obedience , Iustice , Patience , &c. how can the Union be perfect ? 4. Reader , do but read their Councils , Church-Histories , ( Baronius , Genebrard , Plati●… , Wernerus , to whom I may add above one hundred , ) and if thou dost not find them , ( and also their polemical and practical Divines ) commonly mentioning [ Schisms in the Church of Rome it self , ] then believe these deceivers and call me the deceiver . Do they not lament their Schisms ? Were not the Councils of Constance , Basil , Pisa , &c. called to heal them ? Do they not number the Schisms that fell out in 40 or 50 years time and continued ? Dare any man deny it ? Were these then Proper Schisms or not ? No , it 's like this man would say that none of these Writers speak properly when they call it Schism . I would he would tell in the next what proper word to use . But either these Schisms were within the Church or without it . ( Reader , see whither falshood will run at last ) If they were within the Church , then W. I. doth but abuse you by his falshoods , If without the Church then one half the Roman Church was Unchurched for 40 or 50 years when they followed one Pope , while the other half followed another . And who knoweth which of these parts was the Church ? It seems whoever adhered to the wrong Pope was none of the Church . But , saith Wernerus and other Historians , sometimes the wisest were at their Wits end , and knew not which was the true Pope , nor is it known to this day . Nay the matter is yet worse : A great General Council deposed Euginius the Fourth as no Pope , but an uncapable wicked Heretick , and yet he kept in , and became the only Head of their Church , whom the rest succeed . And so all that Church by this rule was unchurched . Sure necessity must make you recant , and say , that yet both Parties in your long and odious Schisms were within the Church , or else what a Wound will ye inflict on it ? But an ill Cause will admit of no defence : If you come to this , mark what will follow : Even that millions are in the Church that are no Subjects of the Pope , but do reject him . If there were two real Popes , there were two real Churches , and therefore neither of them was Universal ; and consequently neither of the two were Popes , because not Universal Bishops , so ill do such Forgeries cohere : But if only one of them was a true Pope , then all that followed the other , rejected the Pope . Either these were saved or damned . If saved , then men that reject the Pope may be saved : And then why ask you us where was a Church that rejected the Pope before Luther ? when you tell us where , at home . If damned , what a happiness befell one Kingdom , and what a misery the other , by the Title or No-Title of the Popes ? Was it all France and that Party , or Germany and that Party that were damned all those times ? Hell had a great Harvest by it , which soever it was : and it 's pity that one Man should be able to damn so many Nations by pretending that he was the true Pope : And methinks such a division as this should be called a proper Schism ; unless he will be so jocular as to say , that it was a proper division and rent , but no proper Schism . I add this note , Reader ; if there be any Sect in the world that are true Schismaticks according to W. I.'s own definition , judge whether it be not the Papal Sect ? For it is they that condemn all the World , save themselves , and say that none else are Churches of Christ , and consequently separate from the whole Church of Christ , except themselves ( who are but a third or fourth part of the whole : ) I never knew any of all our Sectaries do so ; no not the Quakers themselves who come nearest it , ( unless perhaps the Seekers , that say the Church is lost ) but the Papists do so : Indeed they separate not always from themselves , though they do from all others ; no more do any other Sect. R. B. Though I am sure St. Paul calls it Schism when men make divisions in the Church , though not from it , not making two Churches , but dislocating some Members , and abating Charity , and causing Contentions where there should be Peace ; yet I accept your continued justification of us , who , if we should be tempted to be dividers in the Church , should yet hate to be dividers from it ; as believing that he that is separated from the whole Body is also separate from the Head. W. J. I am glad you accept of something at the last up-shot : If it be for your advantage God give you good on 't . I speak not of Schism taken in a large sense , but of that only which is treated by the Fathers , and reckoned up among the most horrid Sins which a Christian can commit , and that separateth from the whole Church ▪ See Dr. Ham. of Schism . c. 1. 2 , 3. R. B. This is already answered . I again intreat you then to consider what a horrid sin it is in the Papal Sect to separate from all the Churches in the World , and then to divert their Consciences by crying out of Schism against all that will not joyn with them in so dangerous a Schism . 2. And I humbly admonish those Protestants that cry out Schism , Schism , against all that will not do as they do , even in a thing which they call indifferent , and others account a heynous sin , to remember , that even these Papists are so moderate , as not to condemn other men as Schismaticks , unless they separate from the whole Church of Christ. And I hope to refuse the Tridentiu●… Symbolical Oath , or any other false or sinful Covenant or Profession , is not to separate from the whole Church of Christ ; for false Oaths , Covenants , or other Sins , are not essential to Christ's Church . R. B. Sir , urgent and unavoidable business constrained me to delay my return to your solutions or Explications of your definitions till this June 29. 1660. When you desire me to answer any such questions , or explain any doubtful passages of mine , I shall willingly do it : In the mean time you may see while your Terms are unexplained ; and your explications or definitions so insignificant , how fit we are to proceed any further , till we better understand each other as to our Terms and Subject ; which when you have done your part to , I shall gladly , if God enable me , go on with you till we come ( if it may be ) to our desired issue : But still crave the performance of the double task you are engaged in . Richard Baxter . W. I. Sir , I have thus far endeavoured to satisfie your Expectation ; and to acquit my self of all obligations : wherein I have sought , as I strongly hope , first Gods eternal Glory , and in the next place , your Eternal good , with his for whom I under take this labour , and of all these who attentively and impartially peruse this Treatise . William Johnson . R. B. Your intentions I leave to your self ; of your performance and my answer I desire such judges as you describe , even attentive and impartial re●…ders : But O how rare is impartiality , even in them that think they ha●… it . In the end I added an Appendix in answer to this objection of theirs , that [ We can have no true Chūrch without Pastors ; no Pastors without Ordinations and no Ordination but from the Church of Rome : Therefore when we broke off from the Church of Rome , we interrupted our succession which cannot be repaired but by a return to them . ] To this I gave a full answer , of which W. I. taketh no notice . Lastly , I concluded with an address to himself , in which I gave him the reasons why I published our Writings , and also proved that the Church of Rome hath not successively been the same from the Apostles ( much less received no corruptions ) which I proved , first , because it hath since received a new essential part , even a pretended Vice-Christ or head of the Universal Church . 2. Because it hath had frequent and long intercisions in that essential head . 3. Because it hath had new essential Articles of Faith and Religion . To all this he giveth no answer . PART II. Richard Baxter's Vindication of the CONTINUED VISIBILITY of the CHURCH , of which the Protestants are Members : In answer to William Johnson , alias Terret's Reply , called by him , Novelty represt . THE PREFACE . I Have great reason to suppose , that if I should make this Book as long as it must be , if I repeated and answered all the words of W. I. it would frustrate my writing it , by discouraging most Readers , whose Leisure and Patience are as short as mine : Therefore I purpose to cull out all which I take to seem his real strength , and of any importance to the understanding Reader , and to omit the Vagaries : And particularly where he and I differ about the words or sense of any Fathers , or Councils ; what need I more than to leave that Matter to the perusal of the Reader , who cannot rationally rest in my Yea , or W. I's Nay : For how will either of those tell him what any Book in question doth contain ? It is the perusal of the Book it self that must satisfie him . But about the Weight , or Consequence of any such Citations , we may help his satisfaction . The Churches alas have not been so innocent since Lording was its way of Government , as that all that we can find written or done by any great Patriarchs ( Prelates ) yea or Council , should pass with us for proof that it was well said or done : nor can we take one Prelate for all Christs Church , no nor a synod o●… the Clergie in the Roman Empire . Nor can we be so void of understanding as to read over the ancient Writers and the Councils , and not to know how much the Major Vote of the Clergie still followed the Emperours Wills , and the Byas of Interest . We cannot lye , or believe evident Lyes , on pretence of honouring them . He that readeth the Stories , and doth not find how much the Will of Constantine prevailed in one Council , and the contrary Will of Constantius in many : What the Will of Valens did with most in the E●…st , and the Will of Iovian , Valentinian , and other good Princes did against it : How far the Will of Theodosius went while he Reigued , against the Arrians , to heal what Valens had done : And how much the Will of Theodosius junior did for the Eutythians , ( and yet against the Nestorians : ) And how far the Will of Martian prevailed against the said Eutychians when he was dead : How much even the Usurper Basiliscus in a year or two could do to strengthen the Arrians and Eutyohians : And how quickly Zeno's Prevalency turned the Scales : I say , he that doth read on such Histories to the end , and yet will think that the Clergie have been still one unanimous Body , of the same Mind and Opinion in all things , and not turned up and down by Princes Power , and their own Interest and fears ; I leave such a Reader as desperate , and as one that will be deceived in despight of the clearest Evidence of Truth . He that doth read these Stories , and doth not perceive the great Corruption of the Clergie , when once their places had a Bait of Wealth and Honour and Dominion , suitable to a proud , worldly , carnal mind ; and what a continual War there was among the Clergie , between a holy spiritual , and a worldly proud domineering unconscionable Party ; and how ordinarily , or oft , the carnal worldly Clergie had the major Vote : how the same ( e g. ) Bishops at the Council of Ephes. 2. could yield to Theodosius and Dioscorus , and condemn the just ; and at Calcedon go the contrary way , and cry out omnes peccavimus , and we did it for fear ! How the same Council at Constantine , that confirmed Greg. Naz. when some more were added , and got the major Vote , resolved to depose him , and caused him to depart : How the same Peter of Alexandria , ( Athanasius's Successour ) that first made him Bishop of Constantinople , for a sum of Money put in Maximus in his place , without once hearing him , or giving any Reason , or re-calling his first Letters ; and how the bribed Egyptian Bishops did concur : How Theophilus carryed it with the Egyptian Monks , and against Origen , and Chrysostome , and between Theodosius and Eugenius the Usurper ; and how the Synod carried it against Chrysostome ; and how Cyril first made himself a Magistrate to use the Sword at Alexandria ; and what past between Theodoret , Iohan. Antioch . and him ; and how the Bishops and their Synods in Ithacius time carryed it against St. Martin , and against the Priscillianists ; and how all this while Rome and Constantinople set and kept the Empire in a Flame , by striving which should be the greatest ; and how the Pope on such putid accounts did molest the African Churches , in the days of Augustine himself ; and their Writers charge them with Schism to this day : I say , he that can read abundance of such stuff as this , and yet think that any one Citation of the words of a Prelate , Pope , or Council , ●…is as valid as if it were the word of God , let him go his own way , for he is not for my Company . Nay if they could prove as much of the Popes Universal Episcopacy within the Empire under the Christian Emperours , as Salm●…sius ( I think too liberally ) granteth them , ( de Eccles. suburbicar . circa finem ) it is no more with me than to prove the Power of the Bishop of Alexandria or of An●…och in their assigned Patriarchates , which altered at the Pleasure of the Emperours and Synods , ( as the division made after between the Bishops of Antioch , Ierusalem , and Cesarea sheweth , and that which was given to Constantinople from Heraclea , Pontus , and Asia . ) Christianity was not unknown till Councils , or altered as often as they made new decrees : And it is a great mistake of them that think that there was little of Christianity , save in the Roman Empire : The Apostles preached else-where , and they preached not in vain . There were Churches in Ethiopia , the Indies , Persia , Parthia , the outer Armenia , Scythia , Britain , and other parts that were without the Empire ; but we have no large or particular Histories of them , partly because that they were not so much literate and given to writing as the Romans and the Greeks were ; and partly because they were in Warrs with the Empire , or did not communicate by Correspondence with them ; and partly because their Books were not in any Language which the Greeks or Romans understood . How long was it ere the Empire had much acquaintance with the Syriack or Samaritane , Persian , Arabick , or Ethiopick Versions ( or Books ) after they were extant ; and how few of the many Books that by Travellers are said to be in Abassia , Armenia , or Syria , are known to us to this day ? How little know we of the old Christians , of St. Thomas , and those parts ? And how full and satisfactory a Testimony doth Alvarez profess , that he saw himself ( even a large Stone with memorial Inscriptions of it digged up ) that the Christian Religion had been in China , when otherwise he could not hear of one word by Tradition or History that could notifie such a thing . How little know we now of the case of Nubia and Tend●… while they were great Christian Kingdoms ? How little know we at this day of the state of the Armenians , Georgians , Mengr●…tians , Circassians , &c. How little was known of the great Empire of Abassia till the Portugals opened the way for Oviedo and his Companions the other day . Iacobus de Vitriaco tells us of more Christians in those parts of the World than all the Greeks or Latines ; when he was at Ierusalem , where he had notice of them . Brocardus that lived there , also tells us as of their great numbers , so of their great piety , being better men than the very Religious of the Church of Rome : and yet how little notice was there then of their Writings or them ? He saith they were free from the Heresies of Nestorianism and Eutychianism which we charge them with in Europe , and yet the Papists so charge them still , that they may seem to have reason for condemning them , fearing that their non-subjection to the Pope will not seem enough with impartial men . And as to the great Confidence that they seem to place in their succession to St. Peter , and Christs words to him [ on this Rock I will build my Church ] and to thee I give the Keys , &c. ] and [ feed my sheep . ] I have oft answered it more fully than is fit again to recite ; but these few hints I would commend to the Reader . 1. That we affirm that Peter was among them as a fore-man of a Jury and no more ; and so Christ spake to the rest in speaking to him ; and the same power is given to the rest : The Church is said to be built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ being the head Corner-stone ] Is not this as much as is said of St. Peter ? Christ gave them all the power of Holy Ghost and the remitting and retaining sins , binding and loosing , which is the Keys which he gave to Peter . And they are all sent forth to feed Christs Sheep : Now the Fathers give as high Titles oft to others as to the Pope , yea and to Peter ; see what I have cited in my Key for Catholicks , pag. 175. 176. and what Gataker hath cited out of Dionysius , Tertullian , Basil , Ierome , Augustine , Theodoret , Gildas , Nicephorus , &c. Cin. 395. 396. 2. Peter never exercised any authority over any of the rest of the Apostles : He called them not ; governed them not ; There is mention of Paul's reproving him , Gal. 2. but none of his reproving them . Schismes being among them and greatly lamented , they are never directed to unite in Peter as the way to Concord , nor to have recourse to him to end them . Nay , when the over-valuers of Peter made one party in the Schism among the Corinthians , Paul seeks to take them off that way , and set Peter in the same rank with himself and Apollos , as Ministers only by whom they believed , calling them Carnal for saying , I am of Cephas , never calling them to unite in him as the Head of all : And had this been necessary , what had this been but to betray the Churches ? 3. The Apostles were never properly Bishops , but of a higher rank : Bishops were the fixed Over-seers of particular Churches , and no one had many : But Apostles only planted them , and governed them for their Confirmation , and so passed on from one to another , and had care of many such at once . If any one Church might pretend superiority by vertue of succession it would be Ierusalem , and next that Ephesus , where it is said that Iohn the Beloved Disciple was as Bishop , and which hath continued to this day . 4. The Apostles as such had no Successors , nor as Bishops in any distinct Seats : The same Christ that called Peter called the rest , and called especially the Beloved Disciple , to whom , on the Cross , he commended his Mother , when Peter had denyed him ; and he promised to be with them to the end of the World : But no Bishops on Earth ever pretended to superiority over any other Churches , as the Successors of the other eleven Apostles . Where are those Seats , or where ever were they ? If the Apostles Successors must rule the Churches as such , tell us which be the other eleven , and which be their Diocesses , and of what extent ? Nay , it is considerable , that even in the times of domination , there were but five Patriarchates ever set up , and not twelve , and not one of those claimed Power by vertue of succession from any Apostle . Constantinople never pretended to it : Alexandria claimed the honour of succession only from St. Mark , who was no Apostle : And Ierusalem from Iames , ( whom Dr. Hammond laboureth to prove to have been none of the Apostles , but a Kinsman of Jesus : ) Only Antioch and Rome claimed succession from Peter , and Antioch as his first Seat ; but they did on that single account claim Power then over other Churches . And seeing the Church is built on the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets , and that all the Apostles , 1 Cor. 12. are mentioned equally as the noblest Foundation , Members or Pillars , and the People chidden sharply by Paul for making Cephas a Head ; What reason have we to believe that Peter only hath perpetual Successors fixed to a certain City , and that no other of all the Apostles have any such : What word of God will prove that Peter hath left his Power at Rome , and no other Apostles , no not one hath left theirs to any Place or Person on Earth ? yea and that he left it more to Rome than to Antioch , when Antioch claimeth the first succession from him , and Rome but the second ; and when Nilus and others have said so much to make it probable , that Peter never was at Rome ; and when it is certain that Paul was there , and those old Fathers , that from some word of one of Eusebius his doubtful Authors , do say , that Peter was at Rome , and Bishop there , do also say that it was the Episcopal Seat of Paul ; and when it is certain that no Apostle was any-where a Bishop , formaliter but only eminenter , as being not fixed , nor fixing their Power to any Seat. And Dr. Hammond giveth very considerable conjectures , That if Peter and Paul were both at Rome , they had divers Churches there , Paul being the Bishop of the Uncircumcision , and Peter of the Circumcision only , ( from whence we may see that the Spirit of God in his Apostles judged that there might be more Churches and Bishops in one City than one , ( much more over a thousand Parishes ) though as the contrary Spirit prevaileth , the contrary Interest and Opinion prevailed with it . These things premised , the Reader must know , that the state of the Controversie between Mr. Terret , alias Mr. Iohnson , and me is this . Finding the Church of Rome in possession of abundance of Errours and Vanities , he would not only perswade us that they are of God , and have ever been the same , because it is so with them now , but also concludeth , that these Carbuncles are essential to Christianity and the Church , and that we cannot prove that we are a Church and Christians , unless we prove that we have had from the Apostles a continued succession of their Errours : As if a man could not prove himself to be a man , unless all his Ancestors from Adam had the French-pox or the Leprosie . On the contrary I maintain that the Church of Christ ( which is his Body ) is essentiated by true consent to the Baptismal Covenant ( which is our Christening ) and integrated by all the additional degrees , that this Covenant is expounded in the Creed , Lord's Prayer , and Christian Decalogue . ( The Lord's Supper is but the same Covenant celebrated by other signs not for Essence but Confirmation ) That all that consent to the ( celebrated ) Baptismal Covenant heartily , are Members of the invisible Church ; and all that profess consent ( in Sincerity or Hypocrisie ) are visible Members ( coram Ecclesia ) That the true Church of Christ hath no other Head than Christ himself ; no Vicarious Universal Head , Pope nor Council ; That the Protestants profess themselves Members of no other Universal Church but that of which Christ only is the Head , and all Christians ( at least not cast out ) are Members ; that this Christian Church hath been visible to God by real consent , and visible to man by professed consent from the first being of it to this day : And when they ask us , Where was your Church before Luther , we say , where there were Christians before Luther . Our Religion is nothing but simple Christianity : We are o●… no Catholick Church but the Universality of Christians ; We know no other , but lament that the pride of the Clergy growing up from Parochial to Diocesan , and from Diocesan to Metropolitical , and Patriarchal , and thence to Papal , hath invented any other ; and that the Serpent that tempted Eve hath drawn them from the Christian simplicity . They deny not the successive visibility of Christianity and the Christian Church : We desire no more ; we own we know no other Religion and no other Church . But the Roman Artifice here comes in , and when their HUMANE UNIVERSAL HEAD hath made the grand Schism of the Christian World ; hence they have learnt to make Christians of no Christians , and no Christians of Christians , as Pride and Ignorance serving this usurping interest please . Their Doctors are not agreed whether any more be necessary explicitely to be believed to Salvation , than that there is a God , and that our works shall be rewarded , without believing a word of Christ or the Gospel ; and whether they that believe not in Christ are Christians ; or whether being no Christians , yet they are Members of the Christian Church : And the greater part are here on the wider Latitudinarian side ; ( as you may see in Fr. S. Clara's Problemes , Deus , Nat. Grat. and in the words of this W. I. before answered . ) And yet these charitable men conclude that two or three parts of the true Christian world ( Abassines , Copties , Syrians , Iacobites , Georgians , Armenians , Greeks , Moscovites , Protestants ) are all out of the Church of Christ , though their own Fryars that have lived among some of them in the East , profess that they are no Hereticks , and are better Men than the Papists are , and none worse of Life than the Roman Party . And whence is this strange difference ? Why , it is because that these are none of them subject to the Pope ; which it is supposed that those are that believe only that there is a God and a Reward . ( But how is this their only explicite Faith , if they must also believe that the Pope is the Vice-Christ . ) And some of them tell you further , that he that should so far believe his Ghostly Father , the Priest , as to hold that he is not bound to love God , because the Priest tells him so , is not only excusable , but he meriteth by it : So much more necessary to Salvation is it , to love the Priest , than to love God. And yet after all this , their own Leaders confess , that it is no Article of their Faith , that the Pope is Peter's Successour , and that it is not by Revelation that the Church-Governours must be known ; ( as I have shewed out of Ri. Smyth , Bishop of Calcedon , and of England ; and in the fore-confuted Writings of W. I ▪ ) The things that I maintain are , I. That the Protestants Religion , and Church , being only the Christian as such , had an uninterrupted succession as such , ( which the Papists deny not . ) II. That the Papal Church as such , cannot prove its constant visibility and succession . Nay , ( though it be their part to prove it ) we are ready to prove ; 1. That it is a Novelty . 2. That it hath been often , and notoriously interrupted ; and their Papacy hath not had any continued succession of Men truly Popes by their own Laws and Rules , and in their own Account . CHAP. I. The Confutation of W. J's Reply . THE first regardable Passage in W. I's Reply , is , p. 53 , 54. Where he maintaineth , that [ whatsoever hath been ever in the Church by Christ's institution , is essential to the Church ; ] and nothing meerly Integral , or Accidents . Because I had omitted the word [ ever ] in the Confutation , he taketh that as the Insufficiency of all that I said against him ; and challengeth me still to give an Instance of any Institution not essential to the Church of Christ , that hath been ever in it . But , Reader , is Perpetuity any proof of an Essential ? He was forced to confess , that as other Societies , so the Church hath Accidents ; but he faith , no Accidents instituted have been ever in it . It may be we shall have a Quibble here upon the sense of the word [ ever , ] whether it was from Everlasting , or from the Creation ; or before Christ's Incarnation , or before his Resurrection , or the forming of his Church by the Spirit in the Apostles ? But in Consistency with his own Cause , ( which is ) That the Papacie hath been ever in the Church , he must take up with this last sense . Well , Let us see what work these Men make , and how they are taken in the Traps that they lay for others : But first he shall have some confuting Instances . 1. Every word of Christ's own Doctrine and Speeches , recorded in the Gospel hath been ever in the Church , and instituted by Christ ; but every word of Christ's own Doctrine and Speeches , recorded in the Gospel , is not essential to the Church : Therefore , every thing instituted by Christ , that hath been ever in the Church , is not essential to it . If you say , that it was not all written till after some years , it was yet all in the Church , even in the Minds of them that wrote it , and the other Apostles , and in their Preachings as is like . If you say that all this is essential , alas , then if false Copies have lost us a word the Church is lost , and those Churches that received not some words , were Unchurched . That Christ suffered under Pontius Pilate hath been ever in the Church's Creed ; and yet the Name of Pontius Pilate is not essential to Christianity . 2. The Administring the Lord's Supper in both kinds ( Bread and Wine ) hath been ever in the Church , and of Christ's own Institution : Is this essential to the Church ? Perhaps some will have the impudence to say , that it is not now in it , because the Pope hath cast it out : but it is now in all the rest of the Church . And we might as well say , the Papacie is not now in , because other Churches do reject it . 3. Prayer in a known Tongue was ever in the Church , and of Christ's Institution ; and yet you think it not essential to it . 4. The use of the second Commandment as such , ( Thou shalt not make to thy self any graven Image , &c. ) was ever in the Church ; and yet you have left it out of the Decalogue . 5. The Office of Deacons hath been ever in the Church since their Institution , Act. 6. yet few think them essential to the Church . 6. Christ himself washed his Apostles Feet , and taught them to do the like , which was used in those hot Countries where it was a needful Act of Ministry : but yet it is not essential to the Church . 7. Baptism from the beginning , as Instituted by Christ , was Administred by dipping over Head in Water ; but you take not that to be essential to the Church . 8. The Lord's Day 's holy Observation , as Instituted by Christ and his Apostles , hath ever been in the Church : and yet many of your Doctors do equal it with other Holy Days , and make it not essential to the Church . 9. Christ and his Apostles distinguish Essentials from Integrals and Accidents in their time ; therefore they are still to be distinguished : And it is a strange Society that hath not ever had Integrals and Accidents . Christ , Instituting Baptism , saith ; He that believeth , and is baptised , shall be saved : Thus the Essentials . Yet he saith , [ Teach them to observe all things whatever I have Commanded you . But all those are not Essentials ; for Christ himself distinguished Tything Mint , Annise , and Cummin , from the great things of the Law : And yet saith , These ought ye to have done . And St. Paul saith , The Kingdom of God is not Meat and Drink ; but Righteousness , and Peace and Ioy in the Holy Ghost , &c. And yet more than these were then a Duty . All things were to be done decently , and in order : And yet , who ever said , but you , that all this is essential to the Church ? Christ by his Apostles , instituted , that Collections for the Poor should be made on the first Day of the Week : yet is not that essential to the Church . 10. Afflictions are Accidents of the Church , and of Christ's appointment , and have been ever there ; and yet are not essential to it . 11. All the numbers of Christians , and the higher Degrees of Gifts and Grace , have been of Christ , and ever in the Church ; and yet it is not essential to it , that Christians be just as many as they have been , or of such measures of Gifts and Grace ; for even Perfection is a Duty . 12. Few of your own do think that extreme Unction is essential to the Church , and that if it ceased it would be no Church . The like may be said of many other things . But see how these Men Unchurch themselves ; For if this be true , then the Church of Rome can be no true Church . For it hath cast off that which they call Essential : Were it but the Cup in the Lords Supper , and Publick Prayers in a Known Tongue , the change hath Unchurched them . These Consequents fall on them that will Unchurch most of the Church of Christ. But Page 55 , 56. he saith , [ That he doth not say , that every such thing must be necessarily believed by every Member : No , not the belief of the Pope's Supremacy ; but to such only to whom they are sufficiently propounded . Answ. 1. And yet these Men tell our People , to affright them , That they cannot be saved out of their Church , or in our Religion . And now it is not essential to believe the Pope's Supremacy . 2. But who can ever know what will pass for a [ sufficient propounding ] while twenty degrees of Mens Capacities , make twenty degrees of Proposal respectively sufficient ; what Man of Reason can believe that such self-confuting Disputes as yours , are a sufficient Proposal of the Pope's Supremacy ? And sure the Christian Empire of Abassia then had no sufficient Proposal , when but lately your Emissaries told them , that they never heard from the Pope till now , because he could not have access , or send to them . ( Q. Whether that Empire be true Christians through so many Ages , seeing they received not the Scriptures on the Authoritative Proposal of the Pope , or Papal Church ; and yet confessedly were never bound to believe the Pope's Supremacy ? ) 3. By this account all Christians essentially differ from each other in their Religion ; and Christianity is a word of such monstrous ambiguity , that it signifieth as many several Religions as there be persons in the World , whose divers Capacities maketh diversity of proposal become necessary or sufficient to them . But he saith , that these are all essential to the Church , though not to the several Members . More difficulties still : 1. How shall we ever know the Church this way ? If the belief of the Popes Supremacy be essential to some , and only to some , how many must they be that so believe ? Will one serve , or one thousand , to make all the rest Church-Members that believe it not ? Or how many will this Leven extend to ? Why then may not the belief of Italy prove all the World to be the Church . 2. How cometh another mans belief to be of such saving use to others ; If you say , that it is not his belief , but their own ( who believe not ) then all the World is of your Church that want sufficient proposal : And Unbelievers are Christians , or of the Christian Church , so be it they never heard of Christ : and so all the unknown World , and Americans , and most of the Heathens are of your Christian Church . And why may not the Pope be saved then without believing his own Supremacy . ( I verily think that there is not one Pope of twenty that believeth his own Infallibility . ) Doubtless some illiterate or ill-bred Popes have had but very defective Proposals of their own Supremacy , it being rather affirmed by Flatteries than ever proved to them . Pag. 57. ( Having first called for sense in my words , because the Printer had put [ as ] for [ is ] ) he turneth his former assertion ( whatever hath been ever in the Church by Christs institution is essential to it ] into another ; [ Because Christ hath instituted that it should be for ever in the Church , it is essential : ] And this yet more plainly shameth the asserter than the former ; For no man can deny but that Christ hath instituted , 1. That every word of the Canonical Scripture should be ever ( after its existence ) in the Church ; 2. And that no Ministers should preach any thing but truth in the Church ; 3. And that no man should commit any sin at all ; 4. And that the Eucharist be delivered in both kinds , in remembrance of Christ , till he come , &c. And yet sure all this is not essential to the Church Pag 58. He would perswade me that I miscite Fr. Sta. Clara , and that he saith not that Infidels may be saved , but only those that have not an explicite Faith in Christ , ( through invincible ignorance ) and that he saith not that it is most of the Doctors Opinions , nor that any may be saved who are out of the Church : and that my Friends will be sorry to see me so defective in my Citations , and he hopes I will mend it in the next . Ans. That I will , if plain words transcribed be any amending : but I cannot amend your deceitful dealing . 1. I did not say that Sta. Clara saith ▪ They may be saved out of the Church , but that such are in your Church , and so may be saved who indeed are no Christians , and so not of the Church indeed . 2. We know of no Faith in Christ , but that which you call [ Explicite Faith in Christ : ] Common custome calleth those Infidels that never heard that there is a Christ , or who he is , or hearing it doth not believe it : And he cannot believe it that doth not hear it . Most of the Infidel and Heathen World profess to believe Gods veracity , and that all that he saith is true ; if this be an implicite believing in Christ , almost all the Heathen World believeth in him ; use Names and Words as you see cause : These are Infidels in our use of speech . 3. The place in Sancta Clara is pag. 113. besides 109 , 110. &c. the words are too large to be transcribed ; he citeth many Authors to prove such in the Church and saved ; where after much to that purpose he saith , What is clearer than that at this day the Gospel bindeth not , where it is not authentically preached ; that is , that at this day men may be saved without an explicite belief of Christ : For in that sense speakes the Doctor concerning the Iews : And verily whatever my illustrious Master hold with his Learned Mr. Herera , I think that this was the Opinion of Scotus and the Common one . ] and he citeth many for it . Read the rest your self in the Book , and I defie your pretence that this is unjust Citation . I cite none of this as if I were handling the question whether any besides Christians are saved . But whether the Nations that never heard of Christ be Christians and Members of your Church . But pag. 60. he will prove [ that nothing which Christ hath instituted to be ever in the Church is accidental to the Church : For every accident is separable from the subject , without destroying the subject whose accident it is : But what Christ hath instituted to be ever in his Church , is inseparable from it . Ans. 1. What if it were not an Accident , must it therefore needs be Essential ? Are there not Integral parts that are not Essential parts . 2. You that boast so greatly of your Logick faculty should not so absurdly erre , as you do in your major . Do you not hereby deny all proper accidents which agree as omni & soli , ita & semper ? Is not Risibilis an accident of man and yet inseparable ? 2. Is not quantity inseparable from a Body or natural substance ? 3. What the Porphyrians speak of an Intellectual separation , you ignorantly or deceitfully apply to an actual eventual separation . If Christ had been otherwise put to death than by crucifying , or else-where than at Ierusalem ; if his Bones had been broken , if he had not had the same integral parts and accidents of Body as he ever had , he had been Christ still : But yet it was Logically impossible that any of these should have been otherwise than they were , they being fore-decreed of God. If the Sun should cease moving , illuminating , heating , you may say it would be still the Sun : But yet it is certain , that these accidents are eventually inseparable from it . If you will cause Humidity to cease from Water , or separate Gravity from Earth of Stone , &c. I shall think you have made them other things . 4. But to instance as you do in such a being as [ the CHURCH , ] dishonoureth your boasted Logick greatly : The ratio formalis of a Church is Relative ; and Relation is an accident ; and to say , that accidents may all be separated from the Church without destroying it , is to say , that Relation may be separated ; that is , the Church from it self , or formal Essence without destroying it . Do you conquer by such disputing as this ? was it by such that you had your boasted printed victory over such great Logicians as Bishop Gunning and Bishop Pierson ? Can you also prove that all accidents , that is , Relation , may be separable from Families , Schools , Kingdoms , without destroying them ? I hope you will not say that you mean that the separation destroyeth not the humanity of the Members , and that this is the subject you mean : for no more would Apostasie or Unchurching them destroy Humanity . 3. And ( that no part may be sound ) your minor is false as well as your major . What Christ by his Law commandeth or prescribeth to be in the Church that he instituteth : But all cometh not to pass which Christ commandeth or instituteth . He commandeth us higher degrees of Faith , Love and other Duty than we perform . You say , No Man may change his institution ; but doth it follow that no man doth change it ? No man ought to plead for Errour or deceive poor Souls . Doth it follow that therefore you and such others do not so ? It is Gods command that we never sin : It doth not follow that we never do sin : When the Apostles strove who should be greatest , it was Christs institution that they should not seek for domination or superiority as the Princes of the Earth do , but be as little Children , and strive who should be most humble and serviceable , and take the lowest place ; and it was St. Peters Doctrine , that Bishops must not Lord it over the Flocks , nor rule them by constraint , but voluntarily ; but doth it follow that all this is done by all ? no nor by your pretended Head who is made an essential part of the Church . I conclude then , 1. That many accidents are not separable without destruction of the subject . 2. That many more shall never be separated . 3. That relation is not separable from the Church , ( nor numbers neither . ) 4. That there are Integral parts which are neither Accidents nor Essentials . 5. That every thing is not ever in the Church ( nor in any man ) which Christ hath commanded or instituted to be ever in it : ( And if that may be in a man which Christ forbiddeth , so may it be in the Church , and so that be absent which he commandeth . ) 6. That it is a novel Opinion , contrary to common Reason and all true Theologie , and which a Catechized Child should be ashamed of , to hold , that all that Christ hath instituted to be ever in the Church is essential to it : And so that the Church would be nullified if one word of the Holy Scriptures perished by the carelesness of Scribes or Printers , or if one decent order were changed , or if one Office were depraved , &c. 7. It aggravateth the errour to hold that every instituted apex or perfection ( for continuance ) is Essential to the Church ; and yet even the explicite belief , that Iesus is the Saviour , is not essential to a Church-Member or a Christian. 8. That this Disputer absolutely nullifieth the Roman Church , which hath changed the Sacrament , and Prayer , and Church-Officers , &c. which were instituted by Christ to be ever in the Church . But I noted to him , that our question to him was , Whether the holding such thing to be instituted be essential to the Church , and not whether the institution it self be so : May not the Opinion be but integral or an accident ? Here he replies without blushing . 1. That thus I yield up the Cause , in naming Integrals , for those are not Accidents . Ans. 1. My affirming that the Papacie is as much an Accident as a Leprosie is to a Man , did not make me forget that I was confuteing his assertion , that all is essential to the Church which is instituted to be for ever , ( or indeed , which had been ever in it ; for that was his saying ; ) And though Integrals be not Accidents , yet they are not Essentials , was this hard to see ? And 2. by his now putting in the word [ instituted ] he would make the Reader think that I had granted that the Papacie was instituted by Christ. 2. He saith that [ Nothing can be an accident to the Church , which Christ hath instituted to be perpetually in the Church ; and consequently the Churches holding any thing to be so , if true , is essential to the subsistence of the Church ; if false , is essentially destructive of the Church ; so that whether true or false it will never be accidental to the Church . Ans. 1. What work will Interest and Errour make . If so , then every Errour , and every Sin of the Church is essentially destructive of the Church : For Christ hath instituted that the Church shall perpetually hold and teach the truth only , and obey all his commands without sinning . If he say that the Church never hath nor had Sin or Errour ; I answer , 1. If an essential part of the Church have had Sin and Errour , then so hath the Church had : But an essential part ( in their account ) that is their supposed Head hath had Sin and Errour : To pass by Peters denying Christ , disswading him from suffering till he heard , Get behind me Satan , Mat. 16. his dissembling , Gal. 2. sure Marcellinus sinfully offered Incense to an Idol , and Honorius and Tyberius sinned ; and it was some sin in those Popes that defiled Wives and Maids at the Apostolick doors , and that were Whoremongers , and came in by Whores and Poyson , and that were condemned as Simonists , Hereticks , Incarnate Devils , Perjured , Murderers , &c. and that by Councils . 2. If all the particular Members of the Church have some Errour or Sin , then so hath the Church : But all the particular Members have , &c. If any Man say that he hath no Sin , he is a Lyer and the truth is not in him . 1. Joh. 1. And in many things we offend all , Iam. 3. 2. &c. 2. Why then doth he accuse us for separating from Rome , if it be as certainly unchurched , as it is certain that they have had Sin and Errour ; it is certain that the Popes were such as aforesaid , or the Councils sinned that condemned them as such : and it is certain that either the Councils of Constance , Basil , and Pisa , erred and sinned , which decreed that Councils are above the Pope , and may condemn and depose him ; and that this is de fide , and the contrary Heresie ; or else the Councils of Laterane and Florence erred and sinned that said the contrary . And so of other Instances . 3. But as I have proved the Antecedent of his Argument false already , so his consequence ( that the Churches holding any thing to be instituted for perpetuity , is essential , and the denying , destructive of the essence ) would not follow but on two suppositions . 1. That such institutions are not only no Accidents , but no Integrals . 2. That every commanded truth is essential , which are both false : For else the institution might be essential , and yet not the believing it such be essential : And he confesseth that such belief is not essential to every Member ; nor can he tell to how many , nor to whom ad esse Ecclesiae ; If he say , To as many as have a sufficient proposal . 1. Then if none had a sufficient proposal , it would cease to be essential to the Church . 2. Then if any one sin be committed by the Church against a sufficient proposal , the Church is nullified . If he said , It is not known how many must believe it ad esse Ecclesiae , then no man can know whether the Church be nullified or not . He saith , [ pag. 6●… . So the acknowledgment of it , by all those to whom it is sufficiently propounded , is necessary to make them parts of the true Church , and the denyal of it when so propounded hinders them from being parts . ] Ans. 1. Still this sayeth nothing to the question , how far and in whom it is essential to the Church . 2. And this unchurcheth every person that erreth and sinneth against any one word of Scripture after a sufficient proposal ; yet this same man said , pag. 36. of his explications , [ Whatsoever their neglect be to know what is propounded , yet so long as they believe explicitely what is necessary to be believed necessitate medii , and implicitely the rest , they can be no Hereticks ; for it is not the ignorance though culpable , &c. And do the wilfully ignorant acknowledge it ? reconcile these if you can . 2. This Unchurcheth your whole Church ; For it is sufficiently proposed , even in express words in the Scripture that there is Bread in the Eucharist after Consecration , ( thrice together in 1 Cor. 11. ) and that the Church should communicate with the Cup , [ This do in remembrance of me , even to shew the Lords death till he come , ] and that we should not make to our selves any graven Image , nor bow down to it , nor worship it , and that we should pray publickly in a known Tongue , and that Bishops should not Lord it over the Flock , &c. and you erre and sin after this sufficient proposal . Pag. 36. I had given several Instances ( of the Iberians , Indians , Americans , the primitive Christians , and their own Converts ) to prove that the belief of , and subjection to , the Pope is not necessary to Christianity or Salvation ; to which his answer is very remarkable , Viz. [ I never said that all particular persons or COMMUNITIES are obliged to have an express belief or acknowledgment of the Roman Bishops Supremacy , that being necessary to all , neither necessitate medii nor praecepti : It is sufficient that they believe it implicitely in subjecting themselves to all those whom Christ hath instituted to be their lawful Pastors ; and when the Bishop of Rome is sufficiently proposed to them to be the Supreme Visible Pastor of those Pastors upon Earth , that then they obstinately reject not his authority . Ans. There is some moderation in this , though it utterly overthrow their cause . 1. This fully proveth that the poor Abassines , Armenians , and such others , ( for all the Popish Accusations of them ) are neither Hereticks nor Schismaticks , for not acknowledging the Pope , whose Supremacie hath not been sufficiently proposed to them : And so that the Church is greater than the Popes Kingdom . 2. This maketh out a receiving of the Popes Supremacie to be no more necessary than the receiving of every Word of the holy Scripture , or tradition , no●… than the receiving e. g. of the Cup in the Lords Supper : For all are essentially necessary ( say they ) when sufficiently propounded . 3. This undeceiveth us , that thought their Doctrine had been that the Scripture and Christianity must necessarily be received by the Proposal of the Papal Church as such , whereas now we perceive that it may be received from the Church though they know it not to be Papal ; And we thought it must have been received as from a General Council , or the Church universal : but it seems here , it is needful but that it be from their particular Pastors . 4. By this it seems that there are other Pastors that must be believed , received and obeyed before the Pope , and Subjection to them is of absolute necessity to salvation and Churchmembership , when subjection to the Pope is of no such necessity . How the Pope will take this we know not : but , 5. It leaveth us to new doubts as hard as any of the rest ; How to know that such indeed are our lawful Pastors , before we know that there is a Christ or a Pope , and how to know which are they . We perceive now that Implicite Faith is not necessarily the believing Pope or Council , but the believing those that Christ hath instituted to be our lawful Pastors . Qu. 1. But can we know that Christ instituted them before we know that there is a Christ , or that he is true Christ ? Q 2. Can you be true Pastors without derivation from , and dependance on the Pope ; or be so known by the People ? O that you would but come into the light and tell us how ! And then , Q. 3. tell us why the same People may not take Protestant , Armenian , Abassine Bishops , or Presbyters for true Pastors , by the same Proof ? Q. 4. And doth not the Proof , or Knowledge , that Men are our Lawful Pastors , without knowing that they have Ordination , Jurisdiction , Mission , or Confirmation ( as you distinguish them ) from the Pope , or are subject to him ; also prove that , quoad esse , Men may be cur true Pastors without any of these relations to the Pope ? For the esse rei is presupposed to the Proof and Knowledge 〈◊〉 And in relations the Fundamentum entereth the Definition . I conclude , that being my self unfeignedly and earnestly desirous to know the truth , whether the Pope be the appointed Church-Monarch , of Government of all Christians that dwell on the Face of the Earth ; and having diligently read what you , and abu●… 〈◊〉 more have written for it , I profess that I never yet heard or saw any Proposal of it ( nor yet of abundance of your Doctrines ) which was sufficient to convince my understanding of it , but much to convince me of the contrary . And I may suppose this to be the case of most , who need as clear evidence as I ; and therefore that we are none of us , by your Concession , obliged either necessitate medii , or praecepti , to believe you , or to be your Subjects . And I confess I like the preaching of these Men whose labour is only to subject Men to Christ , and to their Lawful Magistrates , and Domestick Governours ; and to the Teaching-Conduct of those that speak to them the Word of God ; better than theirs that make it the Foundation of their Religion , to make all Men on Earth their Subjects . And yet Teachers we acknowledge necessary to our Faith ; but it is not first necessary to believe them to be sent by Christ , before we believe in Christ. But , 1. The first Messengers ( Apostles ) did at once affirm that Christ is the Saviour of the World , and that he sent them to witness his Resurrection , Miracles , and Works ; and to preach his Gospel . And the Tongues , Miracles , &c. by which they proved it , was a Proof of both at once ; but principally of the former : ( For if an un-called Preacher had wrought a Miracle , it would have proved his Doctrine , but not his Calling . ) 2. But ordinary Preachers now give us the Evidences of the truth of the Gospel , which were heretofore delivered to the Church . ( The Doctrine's self-evidencing Divinity , as it hath the Impress of God's Power , Wisdom , and Love , his Holiness , Justice , and Mercy , with the antecedent Prophesies fulfilled , and the concomitant and subsequent Miracles , and the continued Seal of the sanctifying Spirit in all Believers . ) And by these we are first drawn ( by the inward operation of the Holy Ghost ) to believe in the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit ; before we believe that he sent these Men to be our Lawful Pastors : Yea , without believing them ( oft-times ) to be our Pastors , or any Pastors at all . We detest those Self-Preachers that would make the World believe , that we must believe them to be our Lawful Pastors , and receive them before we believe in God the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; and receive him . And we detest that false Doctrine that saith , That a Lay-man may not convert Souls to the Faith of Christ ; and that God's Word and Spirit may not , by his opening that Word , win Souls that know not yet what Ministry Christ hath instituted . To my Instance of the Iberians ( converted by a Maid ) and the Indians by Frumentius and Edesius , he answers , 1. That he can prove the Papacy preach'd to them , as well as I can Iustification by Faith alone , or any other parcicular Point of our Doctrine . 2. We must both say that all important truths of Christianity were preached to them ; and till you have evinced this of the Supremacy to be none of those , it is to be supposed it was sufficiently declared to them . 3. Explicating the Article of the Catholick Church , it 's supposed they were told it consisted of Pastor and People united , and that they must obey their Lawful Pastors ; in which Doctrine the Pope is implicitely included . Answ. 1. Our Doctrine ( as you call it ) is Christianity , and I can prove nothing preached but what made them Christians ; which you confess may be without believing the Pope's Supremacy . 2. A brave Argument : All important truths were preached , Ergo you must prove that this is not one of them . 1. All important truths cannot in reason be supposed to be preached by those two Lay-men , and by a Maid : All essential truths we may suppose preached , or else they could not be Christians . We heard before that you would perswade us that every truth of continued institution , is not only important , but essential to the Church . Whence you may infer ( in your way ) that the Maid and the two Lay-men had preached every such truth , and left not one out ; or else there was no Christians and Church . 2. It 's your part to prove that the Papacy is such an important truth , and not mine to prove the Negative , ( which yet I have oft and fully done . ) 3. The Article of the Catholick Church was not at first in the Creed , as the old Copies shew : And Baptism was Administred without mentioning that Article . 4. If holding that [ People must obey their Lawful Pastors ] will serve , then we are all right ▪ 〈◊〉 if this be an implicite belief of the Papacy , we are all Papists ; yea , perhaps Mahometans and He●…thens are Papists too , by such a belief . To 〈◊〉 Instance from Act. 2. he saith , 1. Who can tell whether Peter told them not of his Suprem●… 〈◊〉 2. They address'd their Speech first to him , &c. Answ. 1. Who can tell that Peter did preach his own Supremacy ? I prove he did not : Because if he did , it was as necessary to be believed , or not . If not , he preached it not among things necessary . If yea , then had he so preached it , that Text , or some other would have mentioned it : Peter or Paul , or some Apostle would have express'd it on Record ; which they have not done , yea have denyed it . 2. Those that Paul preach'd to , Act. 16. and other places , address'd their Speech first to him : But doth it follow that therefore he was Governour of all the Apostles ? How unhappy are great Conquerours that must fight many bloody Battels to win one Kingdom of another Mans , in Comparison of the Pope ; who without a blow , or a word of good reason , can hope by such gross Sophismes as these to get the Monarchy of the whole Earth . To my Instance of those converted by the English and Dutch in the Indies , he bids me prove them to be instructed in the true Faith ? Answ. They that are instructed in the Baptismal Covenant , the Creed , and in general the truth of all the Sacred Scriptures ; and are devoted to God by the Baptismal Covenant , and taught to conform their Desires to the Lord's-prayer , and their Practice to the Decalogue ; to live soberly , righteously , and godly ; and in love to God and Man , and in good works , and hope of Heaven , are instructed in the true Faith. But such are they in question , &c. Do you so oft say , that less than all the Creed is necessitate medii to be believed ? and many of you , not so much as Christ himself ; and yet is not all that Protestants teach the true Faith ? O Impartiality ! Next to my Instance of the Abassian Empire , he bids me also prove them to be Orthodox Catholick Christians . Answ. 1. I must first know what you mean by [ Orthodox and Catholick ] which your ill faculty of expounding makes me despair of . If by [ Orthodox ] you mean such as have no errours , I cannot prove it ; but it 's shame for such erroneous Men as you to demand it . But if you mean but such as hold all the Essentials of Christianity and much more , the former Argument joyned with all just Testimonies of them , ( such as you have in Damianus a Goes , Alvarez , Godignus , &c. ) prove it . So if by Catholick you mean a Papist , I cannot prove it , but the eontrary . But if you mean [ Parts of the Universal Church ] it 's proved as afore . Note here what vafritious Men these are , that save or ●…amn Empires to and fro ; as the interest of their arguing requireth . When we prove that the rest of the Christian Church is twice or thrice as great as all the Papal Church ; then they tell us that Greeks , Abassines , &c. are of their mind ; and they feign that the Greeks , Armenians , Abassines , &c. are all subject to the Pope , and have submitted to him ; Godignus wrote to confute one of their own Writers that affirmeth the Abassines to be for the Pope . But when their Cause bids them say otherwise , then we are challenged to prove them Catholick Christians , and Orthodox . Had you put me to prove the Papists such , you had put me harder to it . Our next Point is of [ the Visibility of Christ as Head of the Church , where he saith , p. 65. [ He is most certainly an invisible Pastor , both in Heaven , and on Earth : For though his Person may be seen there , yet the Exercise of his Pastorship consisting only in spiritual Influences and internal Graces cannot be seen by any Corporal Eye whatsoever : Therefore as a Pastor of the Militant Church he is wholly invisible ; so you put a visible Body without a visible Head , all that is visible in the Pastoral Function being performed by visible Pastors ; and all that is invisible by our Saviour . So you by a strange piece of Novelty constitute a visible Body , without a visible Head ; you destroy the visible Church , and frame a Monster ▪ ] Answ. What abundance of Heresies must I charge on such Men , if I judged them according to their terms and rigour of judging ? 1. Christ , as a visible Head of the Church , is here denyed : Whereas , 1. It is not that he is Visus , but Visibilis that we assert . 2. And he was seen till about thirty three years of Age on Earrh : He was seen to do Miracles , suffer , rise , ascend . 3. He was seen of Paul and Stephen after his Ascension . 4. The poor scattered Flock on Earth is but a Handful , to the Church Triumphant that see him still in Heaven ; and it is the same Body . 5. He will come visible in Glory to Judgment . 6. Every Believer , after a few hasty hours , passeth to the sight of him . 7. And we shall all see him in Heaven for ever . Compare this now with the Visibility of the greatest Earthly Monarchs , who are never seen to the thousandth Person of their Empires ; and rarely to any but their Courtiers : and some of them rarely to the most of them , but to some very few , and quickly die and are seen here no more . And yet may not Christ be called a Visible Head. And yet we say but that he is visible in tantum , and not every-where , nor to every one . 2. But it is not his Person that he saith is invisible , but worse than that ; it is [ the Exercise of his Pastorship ] which he erroneously ( that I say not heretically ) affirmeth to consist only in spiritual Influxes , and internal Graces . ] So that here , 1. He denyeth all Christ's visible teaching and government , while he was on Earth ( were his words to be strictly understood ; ) and all his Mission and Commissioning of his Apostles , &c. 2. He denyeth all the Sacred Scriptures , which are Christ's visible Doctrine , Laws and Promises ; and so the visible Exercise of his Office , as the King's Laws are of his . 3. He denyeth all Christ's visible Administrations by his Officers , Princes and Pastors ; as if it were a good Argument , that Christ doth it not , because they do it : whereas it is he that visibly ruleth ( as to the effect here questioned ) by them ; as it is the visible Government of the King which is exercised all abroad the Kingdom by his Command . 4. He denyeth Christ's visible Mercies , Provision , Protection , Deliverances of many sorts ; which are all parts of the Exercise of his Office. 5. He denyeth all the visible Miracles which Christ hath wrought by others , whilst yet their Church so boasteth of them as if they were their very Foundation , ( as I shewed out of Knot against Chillingworth , who ultimately resolveth their Faith into them , ) and they would have us think that they are costant things . If you say that Christ is not seen here : I answer , It is not Christ's Person now whose Visibility he speaks of , but the Exercise of his Office. 6. He denyeth all the visible punishments which Christ himself inflicteth on his sinning People , and on his Enemies , though they are many and notorious ; and as God is known by the Iudgments which he executeth , Psal. 9. So all things and power now are given unto Christ , and he judgeth the World as Lord of all : For the Father judgeth no Man , but hath committed all Iudgment to the Son , Joh. 5. 22. 7. He denyeth Christ's final visible Judgment , if he hold strictly to his words , That the Exercise of Christ's Pastorship is only in spiritual Influences and internal Graces . If you say that some of my Instances are not of his Pastoral , but his Regal Offices , I answer that it is but some that you so except . 2. It is a mistake , because his Pastoral and Regal Office are one and the same indeed ; not two Offices , but two inadequate Metaphorical conceptions of one and the same Office of Christ : And it belongeth to the Pastor to provide Food for his Flock , to govern them , to fetch them home , and to defend them and destroy the Wolves . He saith , all that is visible is done by visible pastors , and all that is invisible by Christ ( in the Pastoral Function , ) as if Christ did nothing which they do , or no more than they do . And he reproacheth Christ's Church as being a Monster , unless it have some other visible Head : Like Cardinal Bertrand , see his words in his Book in Biblioth . Patrum , that saith ; God had not been wise , if he had not made one Universal Monarch over all the World. And when we have fully proved that a mere Humane visible Church-Governour over all the round Earth is impossible , and such Power never was deputed by Christ to any ; and that the far greatest part of the Church never owneth , or did own such : Will it not then follow , that his reproach of Christ's Church and Government is unjust and rash ? And would it not follow by the same reason that the Earth , as Gods Kingdom , ( which Christ also is the King of ) is a Monster , being a visible Body ; unless it had one mere Humane visible Head ? Are not Men as Men , and governable by the Sword , as visible as Men as Christians , and governable by the Word and Keys ? If so ( which is undeniable , ) Why is the Christian World any more a Monster without a Monarch Bishop , than the Humane World without a Monarch King ? But pag. 66 , 67. he asks [ Whether Christ performed immediately any visible Action in relation to the Church ? ] and saith , Men will expect that I shew that Christ , not in his Person , but in the Exercise of his Pastoral Headship , works visibly by himself . Answ. If it be not the Person 's Visibility that you require , but the Action ; that is considered either as it is Agentis , or as in Pass●… , in the Receiver . The former is seen , if ever , only when it is the seen Mo●…us of a Body . If the latter , I have named you divers visible Acts of Christ. But why must [ immediate ] come in ? Doth not my hand write visibly unless I do it without a Pen ? How little Government do great Emperours exercise immediately in all their Empire ? even none in the far greatest part in all their Lives , but give out their Laws and Mandates to others . What Government hath your Pope exercised immediately in Abassia , Armenia , Tartary , Persia , yea or Mexico , much less at the terra australis incognita , and all that side of the Earth which Lactantius , Augustine , &c. denyed ? He confesseth that he cited not Ephes. 4. to prove the Papacie , but successive Pastors . Reader , think seriously , 1. whether the Pope be not an invisible Head , and his Church a Monster by this mans rules . Doth he rule all his Church immediately or by others ? If by others , doth not Christ do so , ( and better . ) And was Pope Zachary the visible Head at the Antipodes , when he commanded Boniface to excommunicate Vigilius for holding such a World under us as we call the Antipodes ? And is this Pope a capable Head of all the World that denyeth the very Being of them , and holdeth that there is no such thing as so great a part of it ? O what a Pastor or Apostle is this that excommunicateth men for affirming the existence of the charge which he undertaketh ! The Answer to W. J's second-Chapter . Whereas W. I. would perswade men that it is first incumbent on us to prove where there hath been a Church in all Ages without the Roman Papacie , I first evidenced that it is incumbent on them , as having the Affirmative , to prove that the Universal Church hath been headed by the Pope in all Ages : For 1. our Religion is nothing but Christianity as such : And this they confess hath been in all Ages since Christs and Churches professing it ; so that all our Religion being past Controversie between us and them , ( which is still to be noted ) we have no need to prove that which is not denyed , who denyeth that there have been Christian Churches ? But it is their addition of the Papal Soveraignty over the Universal Church which is denyed by us , and must be proved by them according to the common Rules of Disputation . 2. And the denyal of their addition is the Renunciative Consequence , and no direct and proper part of our Positive Religion : True Faith is one thing , and the Renunciation of all Errors contrary to it is another thing : The one is such as may be defined ; the other in particulars hath no bounds : I can soon say that There is one God the Father Almighty , &c. and in general that I deny any other ; but if I will undertake to name them all that are worshipped as Gods , and say , e. g. Sathan , Iupiter , Sol , &c. are no Gods , I can never know when I have done ; and this is but a consequent of my Faith : so it is to believe that Mahomet , Amida , Zachea , &c. are no Saviours . Now if any would bid me prove Where there hath been Church in all Ages that did renounce Arrianism , Macedonianism , Nestorians , Eutychians , Monotheli●…es , &c. I cannot prove that any did expresly renounce these before they were known in the World ; and yet Christianity was the same Religion of the Church without any change before and after . So W. I's demand upon his Plea of present possession , is as if he should say , The man of seventy years of Age which is now gray-headed and lame was ever so : Or the Church which now honoureth St. Martin , St. Thomas Aquinas , as Saints , is the true Church of Christ : And if you cannot shew , us that your Church hath in all Ages so honoured St. Martin , &c. you are not the true Church of Christ. What if it had been [ The Church that keepeth Easter-day as now we do , and Christmas - day on the 25th of December is the true Church of Christ ; therefore you must prove that your Church hath ever done so . Could they prove their Papacy in the Empire as old , it would have the same answer , viz. It was but a part of the Church , and not the whole , that kept Easter and Christmas as we do now ; for one part kept Easter on another day , till the Nicene Council ended that Controversie in the East , and Christmas-day on the 6th of Ianuary till after the middle of Chrysostom's time ; and so in the present case , had it been as ancient as they pretend , it was not Universal . 2. But he saith that [ at least , as Patriarch of the West by the Churches grant , they were in full quiet possession of that Right or Power which we confess was lawful . ] Ans. No such matter : We make no such Confession : Those Protestants , who think that the superiority of Patriarchs is lawful , do hold that it is by humane Laws ; and that if any such Laws were made by that which you call the Church , that is , by Councils , it was by such Councils as in such matters received their Power from the Emperours , without which they might not set up one City above another , nor distribute Provinces and Diocesses , and as was done ; and therefore that while the Imperial Laws enforced them , they had the Law to bind Subjects to obey them : but when any Kingdom was cut off from the Empire , it was from under those Laws , and under the Laws of their own Prince , and the former decrees of Councils were no Laws to them any longer ; though they might by voluntary contract still associate with Forraign Lands . So that such hold , 1. That while Britain was under the Roman Empire they owed some respect or obedience to the Pope as Patriarch of the West , as English-men do the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury . 2. That before and after , they owed him no more obedience than to the Bishop of Rhemes or Arles . 3. That when the Saxon Kings permitted the first English Bishops voluntarily to subject themselves to the Patriarch of Rome , they made themselves Debtors of all lawful obedience which they promised . 4. That when the Saxon and Danish Kings Commanded their Subjects such lawful obedience to the Bishop of Rome , they owed it him by the obligation of their Soveraigns Laws . 5. And when those Laws ceas'd their obligation ceased ; and when those Laws forbad it , it became unlawful . And so the Roman Patriarch had no power in England when the King and Law did deny it him , or cease to give it him . This is the judgment of those Protestants that think such Patriarchs lawful : The other that think them a sinful Usurpation , think that they were never lawful ; yet he urgeth us with what Conscience we ceased to obey them . Pag. 74. he saith [ Prove that any Church which now denyeth it , hath been always visible and I am satisfied whether that Church always denyed it or no. Ans. This hath some moderation in it . 1. There hath no Church but that of Ierusalem been always visible from the beginning of Christianity ; for no other was at first existent . 2. And that was not visible from the beginning of the World. 3. This Church of Ierusalem as it consisteth of the most Christians there , now denyeth your Papal Power . 4. The Churches of Alexandria , Antioch , and Abassia now deny it , and have been always visible . 5. The Church of Ephesus , and many others of Greeks that now deny it , have been always visible since Paul's time ; and Constantinople since the first planting . 6. And I pray you note that the Church of Rome hath not been always visible , for it did not exist till some years after that at Ierusalem . Yea note , that you cannot pretend that the Bishop of Rome was the Universal Bishop from the beginning ; for you confess Peter was first Bishop of Antioch , and all that while Rome was not the Mistress Church : And so if you should have the Supremacy ; it must be by a change from the first State : Though indeed Peter himself never claimed nor exercised any such thing , much less did he ever leave it to a Successor , and least of all as fixed to one City , any more than St. Iohn's power was to the Bishop of Ephesus . And indeed Bellarmine himself dare not deny but that the Seat of the Universal Bishop may possibly be removed from Rome to some other place . And then ( suppose it were to Avignion , or to Constantinople ) where is St. Peter's Successor ? How must he be chosen ? or how shall his power above others be known , when all the old pretensions faile ? Pag. 78. ( till then there 's nothing but vain words ) When I noted that They that make Christ corporally present in every Church in the Eucharist , should not say that the King of the Church is absent . He replyeth [ We dispute of a proper visible presence , such as is not in the Eucharist . Ans. You affirm that Christ is there corporally present under the Forms of Bread and Wine ; and that the Bread which we see is the Body of Christ and no Bread ; and yet that we see not the Body of Christ : Sure we see something or nothing ; and if it be something and not Bread , nor Christs Body , what is it ? But suppose that it be not Christs Body which we see , yet while the Bread is turned into his Body , that which you do see is nearer to him than a Kings Crown or Clothing is to the King ; and yet if you see the King only in his Cloths , his ●…ace being vailed , will you say that he is not a visible King ? Doth clothing make Kings , or the species of the Consecrated Bread make Christ to become invisible ? 2. Do you not bow towards him on the Altar ? Do you not carry him in procession about the Streets ? and do you not constrain all that meet you to kneel down and adore ? sure you do not think him to be out of sight , or hearing , or far off , to whom you pray , and whom you so honour as present ? As Paul said to the Iews , God is not far from every one of us ; so that Christ , who is adorably present in his Body on the Altar , and corporally present in every Receivers hand and mouth , surely hath not yet forsaken the Earth , so far as to be uncapable of constituting a visible Kingdom without a Pope . Pag. 79. I told him that [ When they prove 1. That Christ is so absent from his Church that there is need of a Deputy to essentiate his Kingdom , and 2. that the Pope is so deputed , they will have done their work ] He replyeth [ I have proved that Christ instituted St. Peter and his Successors to govern visibly his wholly Universal Church in all Ages ] Ans. Wonderful ! when was it , and where ? Let the Reader find any such thing in your writing , for I cannot , no not a word : Had that been done I had contradicted you no longer ; but if it be by an Invisible Proof that your Visible Head reigneth , I cannot judge of it . He next addeth [ I press you therefore once more to give an instance of something which hath been ever in the visible Church by Christs institution , and yet is accidental to the Church . ] Ans. 1. If I have not given you such Instances and Reasons also to prove that all that Christ instituted to continue is not essential , let the Reader say that I have failed you . 2. But if I had not , what is it to your cause ; will it thence follow that you have said a word to prove that Christ instituted the Universal Head-ship of the Pope ? Or rather do you not overthrow it your self by such arguing , seeing 1. the Headship of Rome hath not been ever in the Church as you confess . 2. It never was in the Universal Church either instituted by Christ , or received by the Church one hour , but only for a time received by a corrupt oppressed part of the Church . 3. The Pope hath cast out divers things instituted by Christ for continuance , as is proved . I told him , that though the King were absent [ it is only the King and Subjects that are essential to a Kingdom ; the Deputy is but an Officer and not essential . ] He replyeth [ 'T is so indeed de facto : But suppose ( as I do ) that a Vice-King be by full authority made an ingredient into the essence of the Kingdom , then sure he must be essential . Ans. Yes , by very good reason ; if he be made essential he is essential : and now I understand what is your proof ; you suppose it to be so . But if it be so in our case , then the Pope is essentially so the Churches constitutive Head that when-ever he dyeth the Church is dead , ( unless you can say as our Law doth of the King ; Papa non moritur ) and when the Church hath been two or near three years without it was no Church , and when it had two or three Popes it was no Church or two or three Churches . But saith W. I. [ This is evident in our present Subject ; for though all the Pastors in Christs Church be only his Officers and Deputies , yet you cannot deny such Officers are now essential to his visible Church . ] Ans. 1. When I heard the word Evident , I lookt for something : But I had nothing but [ you cannot deny it : and what true Christian ever yet denyed it ? ] But I do not remember that ever I heard it disputed before ; affirmed or denyed . He that would deny it , will say that as all the Mayors , Bayliffs , and other Magistrates of Corporations , are indeed essential parts of those Corporations , and these Corporations are the noblest integral parts of the Kingdom , but no essential parts of it , so that if the Kingdom should be resolved into a King and meer common Subjects only , it were a Kingdom still : so it is in the Church . Particular gathered Churches are the noblest integral parts of the Universal Church , but not essential : And Pastors are essential parts of those particular Churches : But if all the particulars and Pastors should cease , the Church would be a Church still , while there is a Christ and meer Christians . But this never will be in this world ; because Christ will not only have a Church , but a well-formed organized Church . Those that had rather use the word essential of the Pastors will say , that as soul and body are the only essential parts of a man , and yet the brain , heart , and liver may be called essential parts of the body , as distinct from the rest , because without these it is not corpus org●…nicum , and so not humanum ; so though Christ be the only soul of the Church , yet Officers may be essential parts of his body as organical , capable of such a soul : And though the other will reply , that this is but a deceiving Metaphor , Christ being not only the soul but the head , and no organical Members being more than noble Integrals , because if an Intellectual separation be made , the Church is a Church still in such a conception . Yet all this is but a Controversie of the aptitude of the word Essential , in that case ; we are agreed that Officers shall be in the Church to the end . And yet Saint Paul , 1 Cor. 12. calls them but eyes and hands , and never heads , but reserveth that title to Christ alone ; yea even when he speaketh of Apostles . And yet if any Officers were Essential it would be Apostles , who are called Foundations and Pillars of the House ; but none of them the Head. 2. But what 's all this to our Controversie ? What if Pastors were Essential to the Church , viz. that there be some ? Doth it follow , that the Bishop of Rome is any more essential to it than the Bishop of Ierusalem or Antioch ? If so , then 1. Before Peter is feigned Bishop of Rome , the Church was no Church : All the while that he dwelt at Ierusalem and Antioch . 2. And then if Rome were burnt , or the Bishop of it ceased , the Church were no Church . Sir , our true question is , Whether a trayterous Usurper of Universal Soveraignty , received by a third part of the Church , and refused by all the rest , be essential to the Church ? Not as whether the heart or head , but a Scab or Cancer , be essential to the body ? After some vain repetitions , pag. 82. he repeateth the sum of his fraudulent Argument , which he calls [ The force of his Discourse ] viz , [ No Congregation of Christians hath been perpetually visible , but that which acknowledgeth the Popes Supremacy : Ergo , No Congregation of Christians is Christs true Church save that . ] Ans. I will therefore repeat the sum of my Answer : viz. The word [ Congregation ] is ambiguous : 1. Either it meaneth a company met together . 2. Or a number of such Congregations owning one Superiour , being part of the Universal Church . 3. Or the Universal Church it self . Accordingly I answer , 1. That in the first sense a Congregation is called the same , either because the same men live , or because the survivors dwell in the same place , or because they are of the same profession . In the two first respects , it is not necessary that any Congregation continue the same ; for men dye , and places may be conquered or ruined . In the third sense , All true Christian Congregations in the world are of one and the same species ( as Christian ) from the beginning to this day . II. In the second sense of the word [ Congregation ] I answer like as to the former : The men dye ; the places are mutable : but as to the common Christian Profession , they are the same that they have been : but as to the extent of Diocesses , neither you nor we can deny but that they have altered : Scotus , Petavius , and Doctor Hammond , who hold that Bishops without Presbyters were first setled , must hold that a Church then was but one Assembly , or no more than one Bishop could speak to . But de facto all agree that it was not long before they widened by degrees . And in this sense the Churches of Abassia , Armenia , Ierusalem , Alexandria , &c. are visible and have been from their beginning , and some of them before Rome was . The Churches of Ephesus , Smyrna , Thessalonica , &c. are and have been such . And some Churches are visible which do not acknowledge the Popes Soveraignty , that sometimes did , viz. The Church of Britain in England and Scotland at first owned it not , and after did receive it , and after that cast it off again ; but it is visible and hath been from its beginnings . The Churches of Denmark , Sweden , Transilvania , and divers Countries of Germany ( were not Churches from the beginning of the Christian Church , nor was Rome it self so , but ) ever since their beginnings they have been visible , sometimes obeying the Pope , and sometimes rejecting him : the Abassines and several other Extra-imperial Churches , never obeyed him : The most of the Churches of the Empire ( the Eastern and African ) sometimes obeyed him as the chief in the Empire by the Laws of the Empire , amd sometimes they cast him off when the Eastern Empire cast him off : but they never obeyed him as the Soveraign Bishop of the whole World. III. In the third sense of the word [ Congregation ] as it signifieth the Universal Church , I confess that I can shew you no Universal Church now visible rejecting the Pope ; for the Universal leaveth out no part , though a corrupt part ; and while Papists own him I cannot say that the Universal Church disowneth him ; but I can prove , 1. That the Primitive Universal Church never owned any Universal Head or Governour but Christ and his twelve Apostles , whose indefinite charge may be called Universal . 2. That the Universal Church never owned the Roman Universal Soveraignty . 3. That the far greatest part of the Church doth not own it at this day ; and therefore if the whole may be denominated from the major part we may say , that now the Universal Church disowneth him . And now Reader answer these like Sophisms and you have answered this man of Art. 1. No Congregation of Christians hath been perpetually visible , but that which acknowledgeth the Patriarchs in the Empire , ( at least heretofore ; ) Ergo no other is the true Church of Christ. Answ. 1. But another is part , and the best part of the Church of Christ. 2. And none that doth , or ever did acknowledge those Patriarchs , was the whole Church . 3. And none of the Church acknowledged them at first , before they were erected . So , 2. Inst. [ No Congregation of Christians hath been perpetually visible , but that which condemneth the Monothelites , the Nestorians , the Eutychians , the Audians , the Luciferians , the Quartodecimani , &c. Ergo no other is the true Church . Answ. 1. Part of the Church condemn them , and part never heard of them : And before they rose , none of the Church condemned them . So , another Instance is , [ No Congregation of Christians hath been perpetually visible , but that which Administreth the Eucharist only in one kind ( without the Cup ) and which useth publick Prayers in an unknown Tongue ; and which forbiddeth the reading the Scripture translated without special License , &c. Ergo no other is the true Church . Answ. 1. Only a corrupt part now doth these ; The most discover it , and none were guilty of it in many Generations , Doth there need any other Answer to such palpable Sophismes ? His Argument plainly should run thus ; [ No Congregation of Christians hath been perpetually visible , but that which now owneth the Trayterous Usurpation of the Pope , and the Council of Trent , and of Lateran ; and part of whose Religion is for exterminating , or burning all that will not renounce all belief of Humane Senses , in believing Transubstantiation ; and for casting out Princes that execute not this , and absolving Subjects from their Oathes of Allegiance to them ; and which hath corrupted the Doctrine , Worship , and Government of Christ ; Ergo no other is the true Church . ] Answ. A diseased part of the Church only is guilty of this now ; and the whole Church was far from it heretofore . But pag. 83. he telleth me that he meaneth neither one present Assembly , nor yet one as united in one visible Humane Head ; but abstracting from that also , be it but truly and properly one : whencesoever the Unity is drawn , 't is all alike to the solution of the Argument . ] Answ. Then sure our business is in a hopeful way , if not as good as ended . Remember this and fly not from it : Our Unity is in Christ our Head : One King maketh us one Kingdom : All Christians are one Body of Christ. Yea , moreover we are one in all the seven Points of Unity required by the Holy Ghost , Eph. 4. viz. We have , 1. One Body , ( of Christ , not of the Pope . ) 2. One Spirit . 3. One hope of our Calling , ( viz. Eternal Glory . ) 4 , One Lord , ( without a Vice-Christ . ) 5. One Faith , ( summarily in the Creed , and integrally in the Holy Scriptures ) 6. One Baptisme , ( or solemnised Baptismal Covenant . ) 7. One God and Father of all , who is above all , and through all , and in us all : Yea , as to the Integrals , though our Grace hath various degrees , we all receive the inspired Prophets , Apostles , and Evangelists , Authority and Doctrine ; and the ordinary Pastors and Teachers that are sent by the Holy Ghost , and called by the way which God hath appointed ; ( though we receive not an Usurper that maketh himself the Governour of the whole World in Title , while he Governeth not the tenth part of it , nor any according to God's Law ; and who is oft obtruded by Whores and Murders , and is a wicked Slave of Satan , so judged by his own General Councils . ) We acknowledge that there are among us different Opinions ; but neither for Kind or Number comparable to the differences of the Papal Sectaries among themselves . Not for Kind , such as about Murder , Adultery , Perjury , Lying , False-witness ; yea , about the Love of God it self are by the Iansenists charged on the Iesuits , and proved out of their express words : Nor such as Mr. Clarkson hath collected from the express words of their most famous Doctors of all Parties : Nor such about King-killing , dissolving Subjects Oathes , &c. as H. Fowlis hath gathered from the express words of your greatest Doctors , And for Number , all the Sects in the World ( of Christians ) set together , have not half the Controversies and contentious Writings against each other , as your Schoolmen and other Writers of your Church have . For our parts , we look not that our Union should be perfect , till our wisdom , and holiness , and patience , and we our selves be perfect . They that know but in part , will err in part , and differ in part . We believe that [ there are diversities of Gifts , but the same Spirit ; and differences of Administrations , but the same Lord ; and diversity of Operations , but the same God , who worketh all in all . For as the Bedy is one , and hath many Members ; and all the Members of that one Body , being many , are one Body ; so also is Christ : For by one Spirit we are Baptised into one Body , and have been all made to drink into one Spirit . Thus are we the Body of Christ , ( not of the Pope , ) and Members in particular : And God hath set some in ( this Body ) the Church , first Apostles , ( not first a Vice-Christ , ) secondly Prophets , thirdly Teachers ; ( but no Universal Vicar-Head . ) All these are Members , and should so live in love that there be no Schisme in the Body . But pag. 84. the Man is not satisfied , though I name them , what I mean by [ These Churches united in one Christ. ] Answ. How should I make a Man know that is unwilling ? or how but by naming them by their Country and Profession ? I mean , All the Christians of Abassia , Armenia , Egypt , Syria , the Georgians , the Iacobites ; those falsly called by you Nestorians , and Eutychians , the Africans , Greeks , Muscovites , the Britains , Seots , Swedes , Danes , Belgians , Saxons , Helvetians , the rest of the Germans , Transilvanians , Hungarians , French , &c. which now disown the Papacy ; who were some Countrys never under the Pope , some Countries at first under him , and after rejected him ; and some at first from under his Government , next under him , and after repented ; and all of them have been Christians from their first conversion to this day . Can I speak plainer ? But Num. 42. he granteth that All that are true Christians are one Kingdom , or Church of Christ ; but denyeth that these are true Christians . And pag. 84. He would seem to give some reason for his denyal , saying , [ I deny it , if they were independent on the Bishop of Rome . ] Answ. 1. Even now he abstracted from this : But now they are no Christians , unless they be Dependendents on the Pope . Such a Denyal is an easie Task , and the sum of all their Writings . But what need there then so many Ambages and large Volumes , to bring out such a short and crude Assertion ? Could you not have said this without all the rest , [ He is no Christian that dependeth not on the Pope . ] But is it not incumbent on you to prove it ? Undoubtedly it is . 1. In foro Scholastico , as an Affirmer . 2. In foro civili & Ecclesiastico , as an Accuser . And till you have proved it , what need they , or I care for yoùr words ? Must all Men pass for no Christian , that a Priest or Jesuit will say are none ? Or am I , and all Men , disobliged from loving all those as Christians , whom such as you will affirm to be no Christians ? Love is easily destroyed , if this much will do it : But it costeth more than so to cause it . Pag. 85. He addeth , [ Let them have been as visible as you please , that 's nothing to me ; so were the Arrians , Sabellians , Montanists , &c. Prove they were no more than one visible Congregation of Christians among themselves , and with ▪ Orthodox Christians : that 's the present Controversie . ] Answ. I hope we shall find out the Controversie at last ; though it seems as hard almost as to resolve it : How oft must I repeat the same Proof ? Again my Proof is this , [ Those that are baptised into the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , and hold all essential to Christianity ; not apostatizing from the whole , or any essential part , are true Christians : But such are they before mentioned . ] 1. That they are Baptized is not denyed ; and Baptizing is Christening ; and supposeth the profession of all that is essential to Christianity ; or else it could not make them Christians . 2. No man that professeth himself a Christian must be taken to be no Christian , till he be convict by lawful proof ; because as sincerity or heart-consent to the Covenant of Grace is our Christianity as invisible before God , so Baptism and professed consent to that Covenant is our visible Christianity before men ; every man being the Expositor of his own belief and resolution : but that these Churches have Apostat●…zed from the whole or any essential part of Christianity , is unproved , and therefore not to be supposed : As every particular man is to be taken for a Christian who is baptized and professeth it , till his profession be disproved , so much more whole Countries and Churches that profess Christianity , must not be supposed without proof to be no Christians . If a Papist will say to all the men in the City , prove that you are no Thieves , no Adulterers , no Murderers , no Lyars , no Traytors , or else I will take you for such . I think they may more justly say , prove that we are such , or else we will take you for a standerer . And that they are of one Church I prove ; [ All Christians are one Church , but those are Christians ; therefore of one Church . The major is certain , [ They that are the Members and Subjects of one Christ , are of one Church . All Christians are the Members and Subjects of one Christ , therefore they are of one Church . ] All that have the seven terms of Union before mentioned out of Eph. 4. are of one Church ; but such are these before named . Here remember , 1. That I plead not for the Christianity of any that are proved to deny indeed any one essential point of Christianity ; but I will not believe this man , that every thing instituted by Christ ( and so every word in the Bible ) is such an essential ; nor that our Church or Religion is so strange a thing as to have no perpetual , integral parts nor accidents ; but what will not some men have a Face to defend ? 2. That this same man hath already maintained that no man is bound to be subject to the Pope to whom he is not sufficiently propounded ; and that he confesseth , that it is not yet agreed among them that any more is necessary to Salvation to be explicitely believed , than that there is a God , and reward for good works : And yet two or three parts of the Christian World must be no Christians , nor Members of the Church of Christ , because they are not Members of the Pope . And let it be still remembred to acquit the Eastern and Southern Churches from the Papists charge of Heresie , ( as being Nestorians and Eutychians , ) 1. That the Accusers are to be taken for Calumniators , till they prove it , by all the rules of common Justice . 2. That if they could prove Dioscorus e. g. an Eutychian , that 's no proof that all the Bishops that adhered to him were such : for it 's apparent by the Acts of the Councils that Multitudes adhered to him because they thought him no Eutychian : [ and Derodon de supposit●… hath undeniably proved , that Dioscorus said but what his Predecessor Cyril hath oft said , whom you approved . ] and many because they thought the Judgment unjust that judged him so , and cast him out , and many for the honour of the Seat , yea many for fear of death by the people that were affected to him as their Patriarch , though they understood not the cause in question . He that readeth the Bishops at the Council of Calcedon , part crying out prostrate on the Earth , miseremini , miseremini , non dissentimus ; else , kill us here , we dare not go home , if we desert and raile against our Patriarch before another be chosen , the people will kill us ; and another part of them confessing that fear made them subscribe at the Council at Ephes. 2. and some crying out , Away with them they are Hereticks , who cryed non dissentimus ; may well judge that all were not Hereticks that clamor called so . 3. If they could prove those few Bishops that were openly accused and noted to be Eutychians , that 's no proof that the rest were so . 4. If they could prove that many then were so , that will not prove that those that now there inhabit are so . 5. And of Nestorianism there is less publick shew of proof . 6. And indeed the main Body of the Common People , yea and Clergy , it 's most probable never understood the Controversies . 7. Yea he that with judgment readeth the Acts , History , and Debates of those times , may well doubt whether Nestorius , Eutyches , or Dioscorus understood them themselves : and whether the Heresie lay not mostly in an unskilfulness of interpreting of words and expressions . Dioscorus solemnly professed that he held neither division of Natures , nor confusion of them , nor transmutation , and that antecedent to their Union they were two : These are unskilful expressions : But one would think that he that held that Union did neither change nor confound them , must needs mean that they were distinct though not divided : and the Orthodox denyed division as well as he . And if men had in those Councils but distin guished the senses of the word [ Union ] or [ One ] half as exactly as all Metaphysicks and Schoolmen use to do , it 's a great doubt whether it would not have reconciled both Eutyches and Nestorius to the Orthodox , it being most undeniable that there is a sense of the word in which Christs Natures may be said to be One , and a sense in which they cannot be so said : A sense in which he had two Wills , and a sense in which he had ●…ut one : A sense of the word [ person ] in which it might be said to have had two persons , and a sense in which it could not be so said : And he that readeth how Hierom was a while Hereticated for refusing the word hypostasis , and what Controversie was about that word and persona between the Eastern and Western Bishops , till it was found out by Nazianzene and other peaceable men that they meant the same thing , may possibly hope that if such men as are peaceable and skilful in discussing ambiguous terms , and driving unskilful men to understand others , and speak aptly themselves , had patiently searched the business to the bottom , they would have found fewer Hereticks than were judged such . And their own Writers have no other Argument to excuse Pope Honorius , ( condemned for a Heretick by a Council as well as Nestorius and Dioscorus ) but that he understood not the words and was misunderstood : And Nestorius ( whatever some say to the contrary ) denyed Christ to be two persons ; These are his words to Cyrils Papers [ In eo 〈◊〉 laudo quod distinctionem Naturarum secundum Divinitatis & humanitatis rationem harumque in Una duntax●…t persona proedicas . His Heresie lay in two words , 1. That he said Mary was not to becalled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Deipara , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Mother of Christ : 2. That he said in the Synod , He would not say that God was two or three months old ; and do not Cyril's answer to the objections of the oriental Bishops plainly shew , that the aptness of the word Deipara was the Controversie : And he that had but said that Christus non Qua Deus , sed Qui Deus , & qua Deus Unitus humanitati was born of Mary , had been like to have reconciled them all . However , the number so judged was inconsiderable as to all the Christians in those Countreys ; and among millions of Christians it is not twenty Bishops thought guilty that are a proof that the Country or Multitude was so . 8. To conclude , the Papists themselves ordinarily justifie them from that charge , and confess , that the Christians of those Countries are honest harmless men , that understand not what such Heresies are or detest them ; as I have before shewed out of Brochardus that dwelt at Ierusalem , and others . And what man can tell us that millions of professed Christians are Hereticks , that never declared any such thing themselves . Were it lawful so boldly to censure others , how much more excusable should we be if we judged the Pope and his Followers Hereticks , who are far more corrupt and erroneous than these whom they accuse , and deny to be Christians ? But page 86. 87. malignity is so hard put to it for some sorry pretensions against Christian charity , and for Unchurching the most of the Church of Christ , that he hath nothing to say but such stuff as this . I require the nomination of the determinate Opinions of Societies , as Hussites , Waldenses , Nestorians , Eutychians , &c. not of their persons ; and therefore I say you nominate none , much less prosecute you those with whom you begun : Now these were Greeks , Armenians , Ethiopians , Protestants ; So that I speak undeniably of the nomination of Sects and Societies , not of Names and Sir-names and Genealogies of persons : There were different Sects and Professions in different Countries , as Armenia , Abassia , &c. I require the nomination of which of those Sects or Parties you mean in those Times and Nations , not what were their Names and Sir-names : nor is it sufficient that you say there were Christians , that is , Christians univocally so called or true Christians in all Ages , in Armenia , Ethiopia , Egypt &c. who denyed the Popes supremacy ; for unless you nominate of what Party , Sect , Opinion , or Profession they were , how shall any man judge whether they held not some Opinion contrary to the essentials of Christianity , and by that became no Christians , &c. Answ. I would not insult over Men in their sin and folly ; but I must say that I reverenee that Wisdom and Justice of God which hath made the Evidences of Christian Truth , and the Rights of his Church , and the Obligations to Love and Concord so clear ; that Learned Malice , trained up in Satan's 〈◊〉 cannot speak against it , without such impudencse as this Man here is put to exercise . When he denyed most of the Church to be true Christians , he puts me to prove that they have been such : I convince him that I am not bound ●…o name the Men , and even the Country it self may prove but a mutable Seat of Religion ; but I prove that Christians that deny the Pope's Supremacy , or are none of his Subjects , have successively from the beginning inhabited those Countries : And now the Man is angry that I will not call them by the Names which their malice casteth on them , but only call them Christians of Armenia , Ethiopia , &c. Their factious Interest taught them to stigmatize better Men with odious Titles , and I must needs do so too . But , Sir , resume some modesty ; if I prove them Christians , do you prove them unchristned if you can . I prove that they are baptised , and profess all these Creeds which were the Symbol of Christians for many hundred years ; and they receive the Holy Scriptures : Do you prove that they invalidate all this Profession , or confess your self a Calumniator . Must I tell you what By Opinions they all hold , that you may judge whether they are Christians or not ? Cannot you judge by their Baptism , Creeds , and Profession of Christianity , till you are told their Opinions in controverted things ? Why then said you , that you call not for their Names ? How can I tell the Opinions of Men un-named and unknown , but by their Professions ? I know not the Opinions of my Neighbours at the next Doors ; and must I tell you the Opinions of all the People of foreign Lands . Is this necessary to know a Papist ? Cannot I tell you that Men are Papists that profess subjection to the Pope as the Vice-Christ , unless I tell you that they are Molinists , or Dominicans , Franciscans , Benedictines , Jesuits , Jansenists , &c. Their Profession of Christianity is notorious ; if you can prove them no Christians , do . I suppose that one of twenty thousand of them never studied the Eutychian , or Nestorian Controversies , any more than those Christians that died before these Names and Men were born ; and I suppose that when these Names came first up , one Pastor of an hundred might side with one of these Sects , which the Ages following little minded , as to any considerable number : and I suppose that some that defended Eutyches and Nestorius knew not what the Heresie was , and erred not so grosly as those Iesuits did about Murder , Adultery , Perjury , &c. whom Montaltus and the Iesuits Morals describe ; nor your common Doctors cited by Mr. Clarkson ; no nor so bad as the Councils of Rome , Constance and Basil say your Popes have done , nor as others of you say those Councils did ; no nor as the Council at the Laterane , did in decreeing the Exterminations of all that you call Hereticks , and the deposition of Princes that will not exterminate them , and the disobliging Subjects from their Oathes of Allegiance . But if this arguing of yours be good , suppose it used with your selves : [ It is not enough that you profess your selves Christians and Papists ; tell us what other Opinions you are of , or else how can we know that you are Christians ? ] But we are ashamed of such Methods ; when the Law of Nations bindeth all Men , beyond their Profession , to prove that they are no Traytors , no Thieves , Fornicators , Lyars , &c. then I may yield that Men professing Christianity must prove further that they are no Hereticks , or invalidate not their own Profession : But yet I will not then grant you , that any are obliged to prove this but themselves . How can I prove such Negatives of millions in the remote parts of the Earth ? ( if they could prove it of themselves ) Call them to do it , if you must have such Negatives proved : But see that you call them one by one ; for my Neighbour's errour proveth not mine . If I were put to take you and all the Papists in England for no Christians , unless I could prove you to be no Sectaries , no Hereticks , no Traytors , no Drunkards , Perjured , Fornicators , &c. How were it possible for me to prove it by any one of you ? This is one difference it seems between the Justice of the Papal Church-Government and Christ's : And perhaps this is the ground of the Racks and Torments of the Inquisition , to make Men confess what Opinion they are of . The Answer to W. J's third Chapter . He begins that which he calls his third Chapter , pap . 88 , 89. with again repeating his Question thus ; [ Were they all united in the profession of one and the same Faith , and Unity of external Communion ; without those two it 's impossible to be united in Christ. ] Answ. I am afraid these Repetitions will tire the Reader , I have proved them united in one Faith , even the Christian Faith ; and in one External Communion in much more of it than is essential to Christianity , viz. in one Baptism , the Lord's Supper , prayer , praise , thanksgiuing , confession of sins , preaching and reading the Word of God , observation of the Lord's Day , &c. without differing in any thing inconsistent with the Unity of the Body of Christ : But if by the ambiguous word of [ Unity of External Communion ] you should mean either that they must meet all in one place , or be all under one Pastor , these you before disowned : And if you mean that they must all have one Book of Liturgie , you know that so had not your Roman Church of above 600 years at least , nor yet the Eastern Churches , nor any considerable number of them ; every Bishop making his Lyturgie , or Prayers , as he saw meet . If you mean that they must have no differences in any Word , or Ceremony ; and that all are of several Churches , ( or half of no Church , ) who differ about Meats , Drinks , Days , &c. I shall not believe you while I believe the Scripture , ( Rom. 14. and 15. 1 Cor. 8. Iam. 3. &c. ) nor till I renounce Humanity , or believe that Men of several Complexions , Statures , or Languages , may not yet be all truly Men ! They that bring it to that , that I am no Christian if I eat not Fish in Lent rather than Flesh , may Unchristian me next if I eat not my Bread without Cheese , or my Cheese without Bread ; or if I take not the Pope for my Apothecary , or Physitian . Lay by the Sword , and Racks , and Fires , and the World will soon laugh down your arrogant Tyranny . I demanded his Proof that ever there was a Papist , or almost , one Church of Papists in the World for 400 years after Christ ? And he tells me , that [ the Oration of Pope Celestine 's Legates in the Council at Ephesus proveth it ; and though that Council was celebrated 430 , yet in a moral consideration that passeth for 400 , &c. ] Answ. What cannot the Iesuits Morals make good ? By them 430 years is within the 400. And by them a Speech of the Pope's Legates goeth for proof of the Judgment of the Council : But what was that Speech it self ? First , Note that the Council was called by Theodosius the Emperour , and not by Celestine , sending his Literae Augustales to all the Metropolitans , commanding them to appear at Ephesus . 2. That Cyril , and not Celestine , was sent to at first for help , from the Church at Constantinople . 3. That Cyril presided : And whereas the Papists feign that he did it as the Pope's Substitute , the Councils Letters to the Emperour expresses , that the Pope's three Legates were the Men that represented his Person , ( Bin. p. 756. ) And that they commended to Theodosius the Judgment of the Pope , but as the signification of common consent . 4. And when all is done , these words of Philip , a Roman Presbyter , is all that this great boast is of , [ Thanking them for so receiving the Pope's Letters , ] — [ Non enim ignara est vestra beatitudo totius fidei caeterorumque omnium Apostolorum caput b●…atum Apostolum Petrum extitisse . And after that Peter , the Foundation and Head , had the Keys , and liveth and judgeth in his Successors : But he denyeth not that the other Apostles also had the Keys , and that the Church was built on the Foundation of the Apostles : And these high words spoken to keep up the Pope's greatness in the Empire , were but to maintain his place in Councils ; and never spoken to the Churches without the Empire , nor such Power over them claimed by him : And the Councils Decrees were past before these Legates came , by whose consent Cyril was glad to strengthen his Party , having been condemned by Ioh. Antioch . Nestorius , &c. And doth not Hesichius say as much of Andrew , ( cited by me elsewhere ? ) and many a Protestant that taketh Peter to have been among the Apostles , as the Fore-man of a Jury to the rest , would say the same words : But he intimateth that the Pope is Peter's Successor . True , he so supposed him as a Bishop , but not as an Apostle , and therefore not in equality of Power : And common reas●…n will interpret him in the common sense of all the Councils and those times , viz. as having the first place in the Imperial Councils , and being the chief of the Patriarchs in the Empire ; but not as being the Bishop of all the World. There is no probability that this one Man extended his Power further than the Empire , and so that he was a Papist ; and yet you have not proved one in 400 years and more . But he saith , had not the Council of Ephesus consented , they would have contradicted one imposing a Superiour and a Iudge . Answ. 1. They never took him for a Judge , any further than as the first Patriarch had the first Seat and Vote . 2. Cyril was there the first ; the Legates coming after the Decrees past . 3. Cyril was glad of the consent of the West , it being become too much of the cause of the day ; Whether Nestorius or he was the wiser Speaker , and should prevail . 4. What 's this to the Government of all the World ? Shew us when that Council subjected any without the Empire , to the Pope , or to themselves . 5. Yea in the Empire , he is blind that seeth not that Councils were above Popes ; and when the major Vote carried it , they condemned Popes as well as others , ( as they did Honorius , and many since . ) Pag. 90. You have another Instance of his , saying and unsaying . When I named the Churches of Ethiopia , India , the outer Armenia , &c. that were not under the Popes jurisdiction , he faith , I must mean that they were never under it ; for if they were under him in any Age , and for any time since Christ , you can never make them an instance of those who were perpetually in all Ages a visible Congregation of Christians not acknowledging the Popes Supremacy . Ans. And yet this same man said before , that he did not put me to prove that in all Ages they did not own the Pope , but that they that own him not now had been a Church any other way truly united : who can answer him that saith and unsaith , and changeth his Cause as the occasion tempteth him ? I have oft told him , 1. I prove that the extra-imperial Churches never were subject to the Pope , unless when any of them by conquest fell under the Empire , or on such an odd accident in some singular instance which I have enumerated in my Naked Popery . 2. And that no Church in the whole World owned him as the Bishop of all the World for above 400 , if not above 600 years . 3. And that those that owned him not ( as Britain ) at the first , and owned him after and disowned him again , were still Christian Churches united in Christ. But the man is loth to understand , and pag. 91. saith [ You mean all other extra-imperial Nations or some : If all I find the quite contrary ; for the Gothes , successively Inhabitants of Spain , never acknowledged themselves Subjects of the Empire , who yet are now subject to the Roman Bishop , and consequently were and are sometime under him . Ans. I have oft and plain enough told you my meaning : This is very cautelously written : 1. If the Gothes in Spain were not subject to the Empire , the old Inhabitants were before the Gothes conquered them , and the Gothes themselves , when by Theodosius's leave they dwelt in Thrace and near it . And though the Gothes became their Masters , they did not exterminate all the Inhabitants , who had been used to some subjection to the Pope . 2. Yet how little Spain then depended on the Pope is known even by the current of all the Gothick Councils , the Toletane , Hispalense , &c. where their Kings called them , and were oft present , and made certain parts of their Canons , and were over and over magnified , and Canons made for their honour and security , and the due election of Successors , when there was not a word of subjection to the Pope . 3. And you do well in affirming no more but that Spain is now and therefore sometime under the Pope ; that they are now so indeed , their Inquisition witnesseth , nor was it ever in my thoughts to deny it . But what of that ? 〈◊〉 He addeth , [ And the Swedes and Danes , though now they reject all obedience to him , yet in the year 1500 they acknowledged him , &c. ] Ans. Very true ; and what of all this ! no doubt but long before 1500 the Pope got possession of the Western Churches ; we doubt not of it . But he tells me that to maintain my Cause , I must shew that all the extra-imperial Churches were from under the Pope . Ans. My Caus●… is not of your stating but my own . I maintain , 1. That the Pope was never made the Bishop of all the World. 2. And that the Primacy so much mentioned in the ancient Canons was only over , or in the Imperial Churches , and was a humane institution ; and that the Councils and Emperours never pretended to give or acknowledge any more . Nor did the Councils themselves , and all the Patriarchs , pretend to any more , nor dream of Governing all the World. 3. That the Churches that were from the beginning without the Empire , were none of them subject to the Pope for above 400 if not 500 or 600 years . 4. That the Empire of Abassia , and all the Eastern and Southern extra-imperial Churches ( Persia , India , &c. ) were never under the Pope to this day , save that the Portug●…ls and Spaniards have lately got some Footing in part of the Indies . 5. That the whole Greek Church , the Armenians , Georgians , Syrians , Egyptians , &c. never were under the Pope as Pope , that is , as the Universal Bishop of all the World , but only as the primate of the Empire . 6. That even in that relation he was not properly the Governour of any of the Diocesses of the other Patriarchs , nor the other distinct as Diocesses ( Carthage , Iustinian●… , &c. ) but the prime Patriarch that had the first Seat in Councils , which put in and out Bishops at their pleasure ( with the Emperours will ) even Patriarchs and all . 7. That those that were under him for some time ( as Britain ) were divers of them from under him before and after . And yet that the Reader may not mis-understand the matter and this mans importunity , I must repeat the exceptions laid down in my Naked Popery pag. 106. 107. and tell him what I grant him . 1. Some Cities that were near to Scythia and Persi●… ▪ had Bishops to whom some Neighbour Scythians and Persians might be voluntary Subjects . 2. Some Cities and Countries were sometime under the Roman Power , and sometimes under the Enemies : ( Persians , Parthians , Armenians , Gothes , Vandales , ( as Africa , &c. ) when they were of the Empire their Bishops came to Councils ; and when they were under Heathen or Arrian Princes they took it for their calamity , and were glad of any Communion with the Imperial Churches , and the Honour and countenance of their Relation ; and it 's like would come among them if they could . 3. Some Bishops that lived in Heathen or persecuted Countries , in distress were glad to seek Countenance and help from the Roman power ; as the Britains did from France , and a Basil and the Eastern Bishops did from the West in Valens his persecution , while yet they took them not for Governours . And some weak Princes that lived near the Roman Empire were glad of their Friendship and afraid of their Enmity , and were willing to hold a communion with them in Religion , in which their Clergy should have some dependance on Rome , which was the case of the Saxons in and after Gregory the first 's days . 4. Some Western Countries that were converted from infidelity by some Preachers subject to the Pope became themselves subjects to that Seat as their Converters , and in obedience to them that first prevailed with them , which was partly the case of the Saxons , and of some Countries of Germany , and Sweden , Denmark , Poland , &c. 5. Lastly , when the Eastern Empire and Churches forsook the Church of Rome , the Pope received a great diminution in the extent of his Primacy ( the East that forsook him being about twice as big as those that remained under him ) but withal a great Intensive increase of his power ; for shortly after he claimed the Government of all the World as Universal Bishop , not only of the Empire , but the Earth . And after that many that were his Subjects owned him in that relation : And since then , I deny not but that many Princes , without the Empire , have been his Subjects : yea he purposely broke Germany and Italy into many small Principalities , and free Cities , that they might not be strong enough to resist his claim . If all these Concessions will do them any good , let them make their best of them . I must intreat the Reader to remember hence-forward what is our difference , and not to expect that I repeat this over and over again when his words invite me to it . Pag. 91. he saith [ The Indians were not always extra-imperial , for in the year 163. they subjected themselves to Antonius Pius . And so the Armenians 572. being greivously persecuted for the Christian Faith by the Persians , they rendered themselves Subjects to the Roman Empire . And 1145 they and the Indian Christians subjected themselves to the Pope , and again 1439 , and so remain at the present . ] Ans. 1. This maketh against you rather than for you : If your Kingdom extended not so far as the Empire . But indeed these are impertinent words . As it was but a small part of the Indies that ever was under the Heathen Romans , so it is not their Empire that I speak of , but the Christians : for before Consta●…ine's day , the Patriarchs made no pretence to govern all within the Empire , much less all without . Pighius tells you , That General Councils were the device of Constantine . I would you had told us , 1. What Indian or Armenian Bishops were at any General Council before Constantine's days , and where that Council was and when ? 2. And what Indian , or Armenian , or Persian Bishops were imposed or deposed by the Pope of Rome ? This undertaking would have tryed your strength : but you were wiser . 7. And it was but the nearer Armenia that you say yielded to the Roman Emperour ; and I confess that the part that was under hi●… had Bishops at some few Councils , and are not the men of whom I speak ; though even they were soon separated from Rome , and were no longer under the Roman Papacy . 3. But your Fable of the Armenians and Indians subjecting themselves to the Pope , and so remaining to this day , may be meet to abuse Women with , that know not your Cheats by a tale of a counterfeit Patriarch ; but neither Merchants , nor any acquainted with History that know the World , will believe you , any more than that the Greeks are your Subjects , who at Flor●…ce , compelled by necessity , made far more shew of it than ever the other did . In sum , I heartily wish that all the World were as much the Popes Subjects as the Armenians and Abassines are , on condition that none were any more your Subjects . And whereas you say , pag. 92. No one of th●…se hath been in all Ages a visible Congregation besides that of Rome . 1. A repeated contempt is answer enough to a repeated false Historical Assertion . 2. Again , I tell you , that is no question ; but whether those that now are none of your Subjects were in all Ages Christians . 3. You have not yet proved that there was one Papist in the World for 400 years . You add , [ For each of them at one time or other became the same Congregation to that , by subjecting and conforming themselves to the Bishop of Rome . Ans. As true as the Turk is subject to you : If some little of the Indian , were subject to a Heathen Antonius , doth that prove that they and all the Christians there were subject to Constantine , or to the Pope , when they revolted ? And when was Ethiopia and Persia subject to you ? And why do you not blush to say that the. Armenians are now subject to you ? You are like to be good Deliverers of Traditions to us , and Infallible Decreers , and Deciders of Controversies , that stick not at such notorious fictions ? If you had said that England , Scotland , Sweden , Denmark , are your Subjects , the falshood had some more pretence , because you have some among them all . I next noted , That these Churches profess it to be their Tradition that the Pope was never their Governour . This he denyeth and calleth for proof . Ans. I give you proof . 1. See the words of your own Writers , e. g. Godignu●… de rebu●… Aba●…inorum reciting the conference of the Emperours Mother and the Iesuite , wherein she professeth it , and the answer of the Iesuite confessing it , and Godignus confirming it , that they were Christians from the time of the Eunuch Act. 8. or St. Matthew , and the Pope had nothing to do with them . 2. When the same Countries do at once profess these two things . 1. That in Religion they follow the Tradition of their Fathers from the Apostles . 2. And that the Pope is none of their Governour : set these two together and you must conclude that they suppose their Tradition to be against the Papacy , or that they are Sots ; and that these two are their Principles , all the Historical notice that we have of those Countreys by Travellers , Merchants , and Writers , Papists , Greeks , and Protestants assure us ; deny it as impudently as you will , I will not tire the Reader with needless History . I next added , that [ No History or Authority of the least regard is brought by your own Writers to prove these under the Pope . ] He replyeth , Yes , those that say , All were under him . Ans. That is none but Pope Leo himself and a few of the Empire , who speak of no All , but the Orbis Romanus , the whole Empire . I added [ No credible witnesses mention your Acts of Jurisdiction over them , or their Acts of Subjection ; which Church-History must needs have contained , if it had been true that they were your Subjects . He replyeth , [ Is not Genebrard a Witness that Pope Eugenius wrote to the Emperour of Ethiopia 1437 to send Legates to the Council of Ferrara as the Greek Emperour had decreed to do , to whose Letters and Legates David their Emperour sent a respectful answer , and accordingly sent some of his Church to that Council , as appears by the Acts of the Council , and that 1524 the said David and Helena his Empress promised obedience to the Bishop of Rome Pope Clem. 7. ] Ans. I had rather you had called Father Parsons , or Campion , or Garnet , your credible Witness than Genebrard , a late railing Falsifier . Such Tales as these be meet for the Ears of none but such as would believe you if you swore that all the Iews and Turks are Christians . Do you think that your obtruding such abominable Forgeries , commonly known by the Learned to be such , and confessed by your own Writers , will not increase our alienation from you ? Did you ever read the subscriptions of that Council when you say that the Acts declare that some of the Ethiopian Church were there ? Why did you not name them ? Do we not know how long a Journey it is to Abassia , and how much more time the Pope must have had to have sent a message to the Emperour there and received an answer , than the sudden calling of the Council at Ferrar●… ( to break another that had deposed the Pope as a 〈◊〉 and wicked man ) could consist with ? and that Council sitting a while at Ferrara , removed ( by the plague ) to Florence , was wholly taken up with the Greek●… , and no mention of any Abassian there : We have ( by Dr. Creightons Edition ) a better History of that Council than Binni●… , &c. gives us ; but nothing of this . Indeed Binnius reports the now known Fable of an Armenian coming too late after the subscriptions : but we have oft enough heard of your scenical Patriarchs and Bishops and feigned Nuncios : You can make a Patriarcch or Bishop of any part of the World at Rome when you will , and then say that those Churches have submitted to you . These Forgeries are part of your foundation , as Dr. Willet hath shewed in his Trerastylo●…s Papismi . Why have you no Bishops no Regiment in Abassia and Armenia ? Had it been true that David and Helena had promised obedience to the Pope , ( as Iohan. Paleologus , the Greek Emperour partly did , and forced some of his Bishops to do in his necessity , hoping for help to have kept out the Turk , till they were come home , and then renounced the Act ; ) What had that been to the Question ? One Man and Woman is not the Church ; but he that will read but your own Godignus , will see the utter falshood of your pretences to any thing in Abassia . Next he nameth , besides Genebrard , six others , ( Platina , Nauclerus , &c. ) that he saith besides the Acts of the Florentine Council , that say that the Armenians and Indians acknowledge the Soveraignty of the Roman Bishop through the Whole World. Answ. 1. Though he names but his own late Partners , yet he citeth not a word , page , or book of any one of them . If any one of them have so gross a Fiction , it is no more honour to them than to himself : But the Council of Florence , ( in whose Acts I should as soon look to find a Fiction as in any , being a packt Anti-Council of a villainous deposed Pope , ) hath no such word in any of my Books , but only that which I cited of a forged too late coming of an Armenian . And even their own Fiction talks not of his ( much less the Indians ) acknowledgment of the Pope's Soveraignty over the whole World. He next addeth , [ And as to more ancient times gives not the Arabick Translation of the first Council of Nice a clear Witness , that the Ethiopians were to be under the Iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Alexandria , and he under that of Rome ? ] Answ. I do not wonder that you use to lead the ignorant in your Disputes into a Wilderness , or Wood of History , under the Name of Antiquity and Tradition , when you know your own Refuges . Reader , the famous Council of Nice hath been predicated , and appealed to , and gloried in by almost all Parties save the Arrians , for many hundred years after it was celebrated ; and the Affrican Bishops ( of whom Austin was one ) had a long Contest with divers Popes ( for about twenty years ) about the true Copy of the Canons : And now the other day comes one Alph. Pisanus , and tells us that he hath found a Copy of them in Arabick ; and this tells you of the Ethiopians being under Alexandria , by Canon , and forty things more that were not in the Canons which the Church had for above a thousand years : and this is very good Authority with a Papist . And so they can yet determine what shall be in any ancient Council , or Father ; as if they had the doing of all themselves . It is but saying , we have found an old Paper that saith so . Why then do you not receive Eutychius Alexandrinus's Reports of that Council , ( published by Selden , ) which tells us other improbable things of it , but hath far more appearance of Antiquity than your new-found Canons ? Next I noted that [ Their absence from General Councils , and no invitation of them thereto , ( that was ever proved , ) is sufficient Evidence . ] To this he saith , [ I intend to make a particular Tract to prove this , and to evidence the falsity of your Allegation , from undenyable Testimonies of classic Authors , and from the ancient Subscriptions of the Councils themselves . ] Answ. A fine put-off ; I do not believe you dare attempt it , for fear of awakening the World to the consideration of this notorious Evidence against you : It is now above sixteen years since our writing , and yet I hear not of your Book . But the Reader need not stay for it ; let him but peruse the Subscriptions in your own Volumes of the Councils , Crab , Surius , Binius , Nicolinus , and judge whether all the Christian World without the Empire were ever summoned to General Councils , were present at them , or judged by them ; any Bishops put in , or out by them ; and judge as you see proof . Next I noted that [ Their ancient Lyturgies have no Footsteps of any subjection to the Pope , though the Papists have corrupted them ; which in a Digression I shewed out of Usher de succes . Eccles. in that instead of Hic panis est Corpus meum in the Ethiopick Canon Universalis , they have put Hoc est corpus meum . ] To this he replyeth , pag. 96. No more doth the Roman Missal , nor that of France , o Spain witness their subjection to the Pope . Answ. That 's strange that you have suffered so much of the old form unchanged . Gregory that denyed the Title of Universal Bishop was the chief Author , and the claim of the Monarchy of all the Earth was then but in the Egg , ( even after 600 years , ) and came not into the open World till about the time that Mahomet came ; else undoubtedly your Lyturgick Commemorations and Prayers would have had some mention of the Universal Bishop , as well as our Prayers mention the King and Bishops ; ( especially when it was then the Custom to record and commemorate all the Patriarchs , and greatest Prelates ; ) and the Imposition would have come forth as by his Authority , as the Trent symbolical Oath doth ; and as our Lyturgie doth by Authority of the King , and Parliament , and Convocation . Surely this is much against you . Because he knew not the Scholiastes mentioned by Usher , he questioneth his Citations about the change of the Ethiopick Lyturgie . I next added that [ Constantin's Letters of Request to the King of Persia for the Churches there , ( mentioned by Eusebius in Vit. Const. ) do intimate that then the Roman Bishop Ruled not there . ] To this he saith , [ Why so ? The Pope might command , and the Emperour intreat . ] Answ. 1. This sheweth that the Emperours who used to call Councils , called none out of Persia ; for they had no Power there . 2. And withal , Why is there not a Syllable in any Church-History , or credible Author , ( that we have heard of , ) that mentioneth that ever the Pope sent one Command into Persia ; or that ever he corrected , suspended , or deposed any Bishop there , or excommunicated any there ; ( though indeed that had been no sign of Governing Power , seeing an equal may renounce Communion with an equal Heretical Society , or Person . ) Why is there no mention that ever any General Council did any of this ? No , nor ever took any such exterior Churches into their care , any otherwise than as Neighbours to help them ; nor never made any one Governing Canon for them ? And I pray you , How would the Persian King that must be intreated by Constantine , have taken it to have the Religion of his Kingdom under the Command of one of Constantine's Subjects ? But you have the affirmative , let us see your proof that ever the Pope Governed the Persian Churches . Next I noted that [ Even at home here the Scots and Britains obeyed not the Pope , even in the days of Gregory , ( above 600 ) but resisted his changes , and refused Communion with his Ministers . ] To this he replyeth , [ That , 1. This was their errour , as our disobedience now is ; and Beda so chargeth it on them , that it followeth not that they had never been under the Pope . 2. That they also held that which was condemned as a Heresie , at Nice ; yet it followeth not that they were not under that Council's Authority . 3. They also refused Communion with the English Converts . ] Answ. These words signifie what you would have us believe ; but let us try what more : 1. Seeing you can bring no word of proof that ever they had been subject to the Pope before : And , 2. Seeing they were found utterly Aliens to his subjection : And , 3. Seeing they were found in possession of Opinions , and Customs quite contrary to the Pope's : 4. And seeing they pleaded Tradition for this : 5. And seeing they renounced Communion with those that came to subjugate them : And , 6. Seeing the Pope's Ministers never pretended to any ancient possession in pleading with them , ( as you may see in Beda : ) 7. And seeing we read in Beda , Gildas , and others , that they had heretofore made use of the assistance of the French Church ( by Germanus and Lupus ) as more Neighbours , without any mention of subjection to Rome : Let the Reader that careth what he believeth , now judge whether ever the Scots and Britains were before subject ●…o the Pope . 2. It is false that the Council of Nice condemned their Easter-practice as a Heresie , though they united on a contrary resolution . And as it is certain that that Council had no authority out of the Empire , and so not over Britain when it was out of the Empire ; so this British Custome plainly intimateth that Britain had not received the decrees of that Council . 3. That they refused the Communion of the English as half - Papists , it is no great wonder : And yet I remember no proof of that at all in Beda , but only that taking the English for Pagan-Tyrants that conquered and opprest them , they refused to join with Augustine the Monki in preaching to them : It 's like taking it for a hopeless attempt in them that were odious to them , and open Enemies , and not to be trusted . Next I recite the words of their Reinerius Cont. Waidens . Catal. Bibl. Pat. To. 4. p. 773. [ The Churches of the A●…enians , Ethiopians , and Indians , and the rest which the Apostles , converted are not under the Church of Rome : One would think , plain words . ] He replyeth , [ No more are you ; what then ; our question is not of what is done de facto for the ●…present , but what de jure ought to be done , or hath been done : The Author saith not , These Nations were never under the Church of Rome , but are not now . ] Aus . It 's no wonder that you desire to be the expositors of the Scriptures ( and all other Books ; ) for that is the only device to make them speak what you would have them . If Gregory the Seventh be the Expositor of St. Paul , no doubt but St. Paul shall be for the power of Popes to depose Kings and Emperours : If Innocent the Third be his Expositor , no doubt but by [ Bread ] 1 Cor. 11. he meaneth [ no Bread ] and by [ this Cup ] [ no Wine . ] And I confess there is greater reason that you should be the infallible Expositors of Reynerius than of Christ or Paul ; for he was more your own and under your Government . But this Reynerius was an unhappy speaker , and if he were here I would ask him , 1. Why do you speak in such a manner as any ordinary Reader would think that you speak de jure & de facto , and yet mean de facto only ? 2. Why speak you so as an ordinary Reader would think that you spake d●… statu statuto , when you mean but de praeente & statu inordinato ? 3. Why speak you of so great a sin as Rebellion against the Vice-Christ , and Schism from the Universal Church , without any note of reprehension ? 4. Why name you the old extra imperial Churches only , and not those that since renounced Rome , ( as all the Greek Church , ) if you meant but what you charge the Greek Church with ? Had you not more easily fastened a charge of Rebellion on all those Eustern Churches that sometimes acknowledged some primacy of Rome , than on those that the World knoweth were never under him ? 5. And why do you say also in general , [ and the rest which the Apostles converted are not under the Church of Rome , ] if there were not some special reason for it ? We took your meaning to be [ Though those in the Empire , and many without it that were turned from Infidelity by the Popes Subjects , be under the Church of Rome , the first by the Laws of the Empire and Councils , and the latter by voluntary subjection ; yet so are not the Churches which the rest of the Apostles planted without the Empire , a●… those Apostles were not subject to St. Peter . ] 6. And why do you so arrogantly accuse such vast Churches as Arm●…nia , Ethiopia , India , and all the rest of the Apostles planted , ( besides Peter and Paul ) and take them all for Rebels and Schismaticks , and yet bring no word of proof for your Accusations ? But the truth is Reynerius ( though he revolted from the 〈◊〉 of his times ) was an honester man than the Pope that shall thus be his Expositor ; and yet W. I , is not the Pope , and therefore I question his partial exposition . Next I mentioned the Canon of the Council of Calcedon which saith , that the Fathers ( in Council ) gave Rome the preheminence , &c. He replyeth , that 1. [ The Greek word is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , exhibited or deferred to Rome , as ever before due to it by the right of the Apostolick See of St. Peter established there . ] Ans. You are hard put to it when you have no better shift than so useless a Criticism . 1. You know I suppose that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may have a signification as remote from [ do●…ation ] as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and that your own common Translation is tribuere ; and I desire no more . 2. Is here ever a word in the Canon that saith [ It was ever before due ; ] not a word . 3. Is not the same word used of the giving of equal priviledges to Constantinople , as ●…is of giving or deferring it to Rome ? the same word . And did they mean that this belonged ever to Constantinople , and that of Divine Right ? You dare not say so . 4. Did they not say that [ by the same reason ] they judged that Constantinople should have equal priviledges , because it was the Royal City . And was this famous Council ( of which you boast as obeying Leo's Epistle ) so sottish and absurd as to argue thus [ because old Rome had the first Seat assigned to it on this account , because it was the imperial Seat , and that was because it was ever before its due , as St Peter's Chair , therefore we judge , that by the same reason Constantinople should have equal priviledges because it is now new Rome , the imperial Seat , though it was never due to it before as the Seat of any Apostle . ] O what cannot some men believe or seem to believe ! And how much doth it conern your Church to be the Expositor and Judge of the sense of all Councils , as well as of God's Word . He addeth that [ the Canon saith not that this was the sole reason . ] Ans. 1 : But the Canon saith , This was the reason , and assigneth no other . 2. And if it made not it the great reason which the Church was to take for the fundamentum juris , they would never have laid the Right of Constantinople on the same Foundation as by parity of reason . The plain truth is , ( but interest and partiality cannot endure plain truth ) he that will not be deceived by cited By-words of the Ancients , must distinguish between the Tit●…lus or fundamentum juris , and the Ratio or Motives of the Statute or Constitution . The first was the Law of Emperours and Councils . This only giveth the Right . The second was prevailingly and principally , that which the Canon here assigneth , that Rome was the great City and the imperial Seat ; but , as a honorary Tittle adding to the Motive , they say sometimes that it was the Seat of Peter , and sometimes of Peter and Paul , and sometime they mention Paul alone ; and cry , ( as at Ephesus ) Magno Paul●… Cyrillo ! Magne Paulo Celestino — But note that they give often the same reason for the Patriarchal honour of Antioch , ( that it was Sedes Petri , ) and therefore never took this to be either the Foundation of the Right , or the chief determining Motive of the Constitution . He addeth that , [ else it had been a contradiction when the Fathers say that Dioscorus had extended his Felony against him , to whom our Saviour had committed the charge and care of his Vineyard ] that is , of the whole Catholick Church . Ans. 1. No doubt but they acknowledged that Christ committed the care of his Vineyard to Peter , and every one of the Apostles , and to all Bishops as their Successors , though not in Apostleship ; and they acknowledged Rome the primate in the Empire : and when Dioscor us undertook to excommunicate Leo , they supposed that he transgressed the Laws of the imperial Church ; and therefore Anatolius in the Council , when the Indices said that Dioscor us condemned Flavian for saying Christ had two Natures , answered , That Dioscorus was not condemned propter fidem , but for excommunicating Leo , and for not appearing when he was sent for . 2. Is here any word that saith that the Pope was Soveraign of all the Earth ? Doth not the Council in that very Letter to Leo , say that the Emperour had called the Council , not ascribing it to any Authority of the Pope . And also that the saying , Mat. 28 , Go , teach all Nations , &c. was delivered to them ( which is the care of the vineyard ) and not only to the Pope , Quam nobis olim ipse salvator tradidit ad salutem . But saith W. I. [ The true reason why this Canon mentioneth rather the Imperial Authority of that City , than the right from St. Peter , was because it suited better with the pretensions of Anatolius Bishop of Constantinople and his Complices for the elevaton of that Sea than any other , for they had no other , &c. Ans. It 's true : But did Anatolias and his Complices , that is , the Council , speak sincerely and truly here , or falsly ? If truly , that 's all that I cite them for ; If falsly , as worldly , unconscionable men that were setting up themselves , why hoast we of General Councils ? even of this , and of their words to Leo ? How can we tell when to trust them ? and whether they that subscribed against Flavian at Ephes. 2. and after cryed omnes peccavimus , at Calcedon , when they were under a Martian , and not Theodosius , would not have acquit Dioscorus , and condemned Leo and Elavian again , if another Theodosius had come . But if they were credible believe them . But he tells us that a Law of Theodosius and Valentine put both reasons together , &c. Ans. I told you in what sense even now , even as they put the name of Peters Seat as a reason of the honour of Antioch , a honorary motive to their Law. And he here confesseth himself , That Alexander and Antioch had the second and third places , because they were the second and third great Cities of the Empire . But he saith , that [ St. Peter thought it convenient that the highest spiritual Authority should be placed in that City which had the highest temporal power . ] Ans. Say you so ? 1. Where is that Canon of St. Peter's to be found and proved ? 2. If so , then why is not this Canon produced for the regulating of all other Churches ? Why doth Canterbury take place of London , contrary to St. Peter's Judgment ? 3. And if so , then you are gone many hundred years ago . Why do you , contrary to St. Peter's mind , pretend to the highest Ecclesiastical Authority , since Rome ceased to have the highest Civil Power ? Should not Constantinople , and Vienna , and Paris , be preferred before Rome ? You cannot make both your ends meet . I added , [ That these Councils gave not the Pope any Authority over the extra-imperial Nations . ] He replyeth [ If they had it before , and by Christs institution , they ne●…ded not . ] I answer , So if Constantinople had it before by Christs institution , they need not have given it equal priviledges ; but did they that proceeded by Parity of reason , believe that either of them had any such Title ? I added some further proof . 1. Those extra-imperial Nations being not called to the Councils , were not bound to stand to such decrees had they been made . He replyeth somewhat that is instead of the Book which he promised before ; and calleth to me to remember to answer him ; and nothing that he hath said is more worthy of an answer ; viz. [ How came the Bishops of Persia , of both the Armenia's , and Gothia ( which were all out of the Empire ) to subscribe to the first Council of Nice ? How came Phaebamnon , Bishop of the Copti , to subscribe to the first Council of Ephesus ? How came the Circular Letter written by Eusebius Caesar Palest . in the name of the Council , to be directed to all Bishops , and in particular to the Churches throughout all Persia , and the great India ? Lastly , if those Bishops were not called to Councils why do Theodoret , Marianus , Victor , Eusebius , Socrates , all of them affirm , that to the Council of Nice were called Bishops from all the Churches of Europe , Africa , and Asia , [ and he citeth the places in the Margin . ] Ans. 1. Here is but two Councils named in which such invited Bishops are pretended to have been ; the subscriptions to the rest for many hundred years afforded him no such pretence , no not as to one Country in the World. 2. To the Council of Nice there subscribed ( unless you will believe Eutychius Alexandrinus , the Presbyterians Friend , that tells you of strange numbers ) but 318 , as full Testimony confirmeth . And 3. I desire the Reader to note that these subscriptions have no certainty at all . The Copies of Crab , Binnius , Pisanus , &c. disagree one from another . And Crab giveth the Reader this note upon them p. 259. that [ the Collector must be pardoned if he erre in the assignation or conscription of Bishops or Bishopricks , especially beyond Europe , for ●…hough they were four old Copies that he used , yet they were every one so depraved , that the Collector was wearied with the foolish and manifold variations ; for never a one of them agreed with the rest . ] This is our notice of the subscriptions ; and as I said Eutychus A●…x . quite differeth from all . And 1. whereas he tells us here of the Bishops of Persia , there is no mention of any man but one Iohannes Persidis , and he is said to be Provinciae Persidis ; and the Romans named not extra-imperial Countries by the name of Provinces ; therefore there is little doubt but this was some one that verged on the Kingdom of Persia , in some City which was under the Romans then , and sometimes had been part of Persia. I have oft mentioned Theodoret's plain Testimony saying , that James Bishop of Nisibis , ( sometimes under the Persian ) was at the Nicene Council , for Nisibis was then under the Roman Emperour . 2. As to the Bish●…ps of both the Armenians , the Copies disagree even of the number ; of those of Armenia minor they name two Bishops , of Arm. major , one hath four , another five , another six ; and part of the Armenia's being in the Roman Power , it is most probable that these Bishops were Subjects to the Empire ; or if any at the Borders desired for the honour of Christianity to be at the first famous General Council , it signifieth not that any had power to summon them , or did so . The Emperour had not , and that the Pope did it , none pretend that hath any modesty ; and they are called in the subscriptions , The Provinces of Armenia . 3. And as for Gothia , the Books name one Man , Theophy●…s Gothiae Metropolis , which no Man well knoweth what to make of ; for the Nation of Gothes were not then Christians . Socrates saith that it was in the days of Valens that some of them turned Christians , and that was the reason that they were Arrians , and that Wulphilus then translated for them the Scripture . But if they had a Bishop at the Nicene Council , it is evident that he was in the Empire ; for the Gothes then dwelt in Walachia , Moldovia , and Poland , and were no other than the Sauromatae , that Eusebius , tells us Constantine had Conquered , and tells us how ; even by helping the Masters whom the Servants by an advantage of the War had dispossest so that your Instance of Theophilus Gothiae , as without the Empire , is your errour . Myraeus calls part of France , Gothia . Saith Marcellinus , Comes eodem anno , ( of Thodos . 1. after the Council Const. 1. ) Universa gens Gothorum Athanaricho Rege defuncto Romano sese imperio dedit : This was a great addition . But here Pisanus helps us out , and saith , Hunc Eusebius Pamphylus Scytam dixit in vita Constantini ; & Metaphrastes addeth Wulphilu●…'s success : Eusebius indeed tells us that there were 250 Bishops ( that differs for the common account , and he was one of them , ) and that the Bishop of Persia was present , ( Vit. Const. l. 3. c. 7. ) And that there were learned Men from other Countries , Scythia being one , ( and the Bishop of Tomys was called the Scythian Bishop : ) And that Constantine was the Caller of the Council ; ( not the Pope : ) And that he wrote Letters to the Bishops , to summon them to appear at the Council : And who will believe that he wrote his Summons to the Subjects of other Kings ? Or if he had , What 's that to the Pope ? If Ioh. Persidis were not a Roman Subject , that word [ he was present ] seemeth to distinguish his voluntary presence from the Summons of others . But saith Euseb. 16. cap. 6. Writs of Summons were sent into every Province : And the Persian and Armenian Provinces are here named with the Bishops . Those that have leisure to search into the Roman History may find what Skirt of Persia , and what Part of Armenia were in the Empire in those times ; and it 's notable , that when these Bordering Parts were lost , these Bishops were never more at any General Council ; neither at Ephesus , Constantinople , Nice 2. &c. And Eusebius there tells us , as the reason why some came came from the remotest Countries , viz. some did it out of a desire to see the ( famous first Christian ) Emperour , and some out of a conceit , that a Universal Peace should be established : And so Ioh. Persidis might come with the rest . And though I find not Pisanus's words of Theophilus in Eusebius , I find ibid. l. 4. c. 5. That it was no wonder that even a Scythian Bishop should be at this , and other Councils : For though Rome had formerly been so far from conquering the Scythians that they paid them Tribute , yet Constantine disdaining to pay them Tribute , Conquered Scythia , and after that Sauromatia also : The Indians , Blemayans , Ethiopians , and Persians , sent honourable Embassies and Presents to Constantinople , ( c. 7. ) as Neighbours ; but he was far from summoning their Subjects to his Council , but wrote his Letter to the King of Persia only to favor them at home . Judge now whether here be a word of summoning any one Bishop out of the Empire ? or a word of the Pope's summoning them , but the contrary ? or any certainty that any ●…ut of the Empire were there ? And if any were , how inconsiderable their number was , ●…nd on what occasion it was like that they were voluntarily there ? Nay , it is most probable that there was not one there , by the Circumstances mentioned . His second Instance is of Phebamnon at the Council of Ephesus . Answ. 1. Mark what kind of proof this Man pretendeth to , when he nameth , 1. But one Council after Nice . 2. And but one Man , and no Summons ; much less that a Pope summoned all the Christian World. 2. But what is that he meaneth ? The Copties are the Egyptian Christians : Egypt was known to be in the Empire . If he mean that the Abassines are here called the Coptie , and their Bishop here , he is very shameless , and few Men of understanding will believe him . It 's plain by the manner and place , in the Subscriptions , that [ Coptie ] there , signifieth a City ; being put in the Genitive Case singular , as the others are : It 's not [ Phebammone Episcopo Coptorum . ] but Phaebammone Copti ; ] and is put in the midst of the Imperial Bishops , by Binnius : ( But Crab hath no Subscriptions at all : ) But was there any City of that Name ? Yes , and amongst those Bishops that were most frequent at the Eastern Councils : Ferrarius out of Strabo , Plutarch , Ptolomy , and others , saith , [ Coptos Cana , teste Rhamusio , Urbs & Emporium Aegypti sive Thebaidis ad Nilum , que merces ex India per s●…um Arabicum advectae terra jumentis deferebantur a Thebis 44. mill . pas . in B. 8. Babylonem versus , a Berenice urb●… ad sinum Arabicum 258. ab Alexandria vero supra 300. ubi smaragdi inveniuntur . Meminit illius Staius , l. 1. Theb. [ Coptos & erisoni ▪ lugentia flumina Nili . ] You see now with what Ignorances and cheats the unskilful are deceived by these Disputes , and the Pope pretendeth to the Monarchy of the World. His last proof is out of Theodoret , Mar. Victor , Eusebius and Secrates , That to the Council of Ni●…e were called Bishops from all the Churches of Europe , Affrica , and Asia . Answ. Would any Man , not blinded by prejudice , understand this of any other , than all the Bishops of Europe , Africa , and Asia , which were in the Empire ; when he knoweth , 1. How much of these three parts of the World were in the Empire . 2. That the Emperour wrote a Letter to the Bishops to summon them . 3. That he had no power out of the Empire . 4. How ill it would have been taken to have summoned , or called the Subjects , before he had requested their Princes to send them ? Certainly Constantine would have written to their several Princes , and not first to them . 5. His Letters to the King of Persia for the Churches there , shew this , in which yet he never presumed so far as to desire that they might come to his Councils . 6. No History mentioneth any such thing , as any summons to any one extra-imperial Bishop . 7. And to end all doubts , the Subscriptions shew that they were not there ; shall we not believe your own Books , and our own Eyes ? He citeth Theodor. l. 1. c. 7. I suppose he meaneth his Eccles. Hist. for in that he mentioneth the calling of the Council ; but hath not a word of what this Man doth cite him for : But cap. 25. he saith that [ Europae totius , & Africae , quin etiam maximae partis Asiae imperio potitus est Constantinus : ] Yet this is too largely spoken . Socrates hath no such words besides his Recitation of the words of Eusebius : Eusebius indeed saith , That the Bishops were called out of all these Provinces , and who ever questioned it ! Not a Syllable in any of his cited Authors of any Call , or Summons , to any one Man out of the Empire . These are the Foundations of the Roman Monarchy . But I had almost over-past his mention of Eusebius , Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine 's Circular Letter , writ in the Name of the Council , to be directed to all Bishops ; and in particular , to the Churches through all Persia , and the Great India . Answ. 1. If it had been the Pope's Letter , it would with these Men have proved his Soveraignty of the Earth : But alas , it was Eusebius's Letter . 2. It 's strange , if Eusebius were as great an Arrian as you commonly suppose him , that the Council should chuse him to write the circular Letter , and that you had not feigned that he did it as the Pope's Vicat . 3. If writing a Letter would prove a Governing Power , I would write a Letter to Rome presently , that I might be the Governour of the Pope ; and then I would command him to lay by his Ambition , and recall his rebellious and bloody Decrees , and to let the Christian World have peace . 4. But the man tells me not by one word , where to find any such Epistle of Eusebius ; In Eusebius there is none such ; nor in Socrates ; nor in Theodoret , nor in the common Histories of the Councils : whence is it that W. I. fished it out ? At last I found in Pisanus , his new-invented History of that Council , the Title of Circularis Epistola Scripta ab Eusebio . But not a word that it was written to the Churches of Persia or India , nor any other by name , much less without the Empire ; nor a word that it was written by him in the name of the Council . All these are W I's forgeries . But the words and Margin open all the matter ▪ Socrates and others tells us that Eusebius having staggered in the beginning of the Council ( and being as you commonly say an Arrian ) when he saw how things would go , subscribed to the Council , and lest his own Flocks should censure him or differ from him , he wrote in his own name a Letter only to his own flock , giving them the reason and sence of his subscription ; and indeed he seemeth therein to prevaricate , and to give an Arrian sence of the word ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ saying ] To be of one substance with the Father , signifieth no other thing , than that the Son of God was in nothing like the rest of the Creatures , but altogether like to the Father alone that begat him , nor begotten of any other than of the Fathers substance and essence ; to which thus set forth right and reason required that we should condescend . ] This prevaricating Letter to Caesarea the Author of Pisanus Story , calleth [ a Circular Letter ] ignorantly , and W. I. added the rest ; and thus these men prove what they list ; and this is their proof of Universal Tradition and the Papal Soveraignty of the World. He concludeth [ ●…ou will not forget to answer these questions in your next . ] And I think I have not forgotten it , nor failed to evince his worse than forgetfulness ; and that the Councils then extended but to the Roman Empire , and consequently the Papal and Patriarchal pretension●… , to no more ( and even of the Popes Western Diocesses , the number of Bishops at those Eastern great Councils were not considerable , nor yet any Agency of the Pope in and about them . ) W. J's Fourth Chapter answered . I next added ( for he begins his Chapter in the middle of a Section , ) 2. That the Emperours called and enforced the Councils who had no power out of the Empire . ] To this he saith [ Called they them alone ? had they not the Authority of the Roman Bishop joyned with them , or rather presupposed to theirs ? prove that the Emperours called them . ] Ans. Shall I prove it to those that have read the Histories of the Councils , or to them that have not ? If to them that have not , I cannot prove it or any such matters , but by desiring them to read it : If you tell a Woman that it is ten thousand years since the World was created , and I tell her it is not 600 , neither of us proveth to her what we say , but she will believe him that she liketh best : But to him that hath read , or will read , the History , I disdain the Task : Must I write Books to prove that there were such men as Constantine or Theodosius in the World ? I will be none of that mans Teacher that hath read the full history of the Councils of Nice , First and Second , of Ephes. First and Second ; of Constantinople First , Second , Third , Fourth , Fifth , &c. of Sirmium , Armenium , and many such , as cannot see that the Emperours called them without any previous Call or Authority of the Pope ; some ( as Nice ) the Emperour called immediately by his own Letters without a word of the Popes interposing Authority or Call : Most of the Emperours wrote to the Patriarchs and Metropolitanes to call the Bishops under them : Sometimes to the Patriarch of Alexandria first ( if not only ) to call the rest ; sometimes to him of Constantinople ; and sometimes to all the five ; and if the Pope did at any time send a Bishop or two and a Priest thither , you thence pretend that the Pope called the Council . He addeth [ Had not the Emperours power to signifie to those extra-imperials that a Council was to be celebrated , and to invite them at least ? ] Ans. Yes , sure , even at the Antipodes ; but when the History tells us that he commanded and oft threatned them if they came not , and that he wrote to them , and the men are named , what signifieth your question ? W. I. [ Could not the Bishop of Rome , or other under whose Jurisdiction they were respectively , notifie to them the celebration of the Council , and require their presence in it ? you cannot but see this . ] Ans. I cannot but see your shame when you open it . 1. Could not an Angel from Heaven have called them ? yes no doubt : but no History saith that they were so called , but tells us how in another manner . 2. The word [ Jurisdiction ] signifieth so much of your Errour and interest , that you are resolved at least to keep up the name and supposition ; and when you do but adde [ over all the World ] it maketh me remember Christs temptation [ All this will I give thee ; ] but it is too strong a temptation for the Pope to over-come . But you would have gratified me much if you had told me what Patriarch's Jurisdiction in those times , the Churches in Persia and India , and the rest that were extra-imperial , did belong to ? or where I may find any notice of the Summons that the Pope or any Patriarch sent them to any of those ancient Councils . 3. I told him that [ the Diocesses which these Bishops were related to are described and expresly confined within the verge of the Empire ; vid. Blondel . de primatu . ] To this , 1. He taketh it for a Fob to be referred to Bloudel . Answ. Look then in your own Cosmographers , and even in Aub●…rtus Myraeus his Notitia Episcopatuum , ( abating his Fiction of the submission of the Abassine Emperours , and such-like in him ; and his Confession that his Book had next to nothing of the Patriarchate of Alexandria : ) He tells you that the Armenia major and minor were in the Province of Pontus , Scythia in the Province of Thracia , &c. And that you may know who it was that gave these Jurisdictions , he tells you how Iustinian gave his Name to a City of Bulgaria , subjecting many Bishops of Dacia , Dardania , Mysia , Pannonia , &c. to that Arch-Bishop ; with this addition , sed & ille ab ipsis consecretur , & eadem jura super eos habeat , quae Papa Romanus habet super Episcopos sibi subditos . ( Was that all the World then ? ) Novel . 119. 508. He next citeth Pisanus's Nicene Canons , giving the Pope Universal Power , and the Bishop of Alex. and Antioch extra-imperial Power ; and he promiseth hereafter to justifie those Canons . But in the mean time , I shall as much regard his Citations out of Esop's Fables , or out of Genebrard , or Cochleus . He saith , [ The Council of Calcedon , c. 28. giveth to the Bishop ef Constantinople Authority over the barbarous Nations near those Parts ; that is , such as were extra-imperial , such as that of Russia , and Muscovia . ] Answ. Is not this a confident Man ? 1. The Council saith only that the [ Bishops of the fore-said Diocesses ( naming only , Pontus , Asia , and Thracia , ) which are among the barbarous , shall be ordained by the Throne of Const. And who knoweth not , that the word Diocess signified then a part of the Empire ? and that many of the barbareus , so called then , were within the Empire ? such as were the Scythians , Gothes , ( or Getae , or Sauromatae , ) which Eusebius saith were Conquered by Constantine : But is here any mention of Russia , or Muscovy ? 2. And how long after this was it that all History tells us the Muscovites and Russians ( that were not Gothes ) were converted to Christianity ? So that here is not a Syllable in all that he hath said for Popery , except the Canons of Pisanus and Turrian , which they must better prove before we take them to be of any just regard : It is not the word of Baptista Romanus , or any late Iesuite that can suffice us . I added lastly that Patriarchal Priviledges were ordinarily given by the Emperours , who added and altered , and sometimes set Rome highest and sometimes Constantinople . His many vain words against this I will not tire the Reader with reciting : Every man knoweth it that knoweth Church-History : Why else in the days of Mauricius and Phocas was one set highest at one time , and the other at another time ? How else came the Bishop of Constantinople to pretend to Universal Primacy ? His marvel , that I translate Pontifex Pope , as if never man had so done , as if we had never read Bellarmine de Pontifice Romano , and others that so speak , &c. is a vain digression not worthy an answer , nor the rest . I will here briefly recite some undeniable Reasons which I have given pag. 100 , &c. of my Naked Popery , to prove what we have been all this while upon . 1. That the Papal Power was not held to be jure divino , but humano . 1. It stood by the same right as did the other Patriarchs ; but it was jure humano . 2. The Africans , Aurelius , Augustine , &c. of the Carthage Council , enquired not of Gods Word , but of the Nicene Canons to be resolved of the Papal Power . 3. The whole Greek Church heretofore and to this day is of that Judgment ; for they first equalled and after preferred Constantinople , which never pretended to a Divine Right ; but they were not so blind as to equal or prefer a humane right before a Divine . 4. The fore-cited Ca. 28. of the Council of Calcedon expresly resolves it . 5. Their own Bishop Smith confesseth that it is not de fide that the Pope is St. Peters Successor jure divino . II. The Roman Primacy was over but one Empire ; besides all the Reasons fore-going I added , That the Bishop of Constantinople , when he stood for to be Universal Bishop , yet claimed no more ; therefore no more was then in contest , but Power in the Empire . III. That Councils then were called General in respect only to the Empire , I proved by ten Arguments , p. 104. 105. adding five exceptions . Page 114. he had put a Verse under the name of Pope Leo , with a Testimony , &c. I shewed that there was no such ; and he confesseth the Errour , but he supposeth a confident Friend of his put it into his Papers , and now saith the Verse was Prosper's , and some words to the like purpose are Leo's de Nat. Pet. Prosper ( he saith ) is somewhat ancienter than Leo , and less to be excepted against . Ans. 1. He was Leo's Servant , even his Secretary , as Vossius and Rivet have shewed ; and so his Words and Leo's are as one's . 2. It is in a Poem where liberty of phrase is ordinarily taken . 3. No wonder if Caput Mundo be found in a Poet , either as it is spoken de Mundo Romano , or as Caput signifieth the most excellent , great and honourable : And so Rome it self is oft called by Historians Caput Mundi , before and since Christianity entered it . And it may well be said that this was Pastoralis Honoris , though not ex Pastorali Regimine Universali ; For one Bishop was a Caput or chief to others Pastorali Honore , that was not their Governour ; as the chief Earl , or chief Judge among us , is to the inferiours . 3. And the Pope did Nihil possidere armis . 4. And Tenere and Regere be not all one . He may be said thus [ Tenere ] in that the Religion which he professed had possession of more than the Roman Empire , and he was the Chief Bishop in honour of that profession . The sense seemeth to be but this , [ As great a honour as it is to be the Bishop of the Imperial City of a Conquering Empire , it is a greater to be the Prime Bishop of that Christian Religion which extendeth further than the Roman Conquests . ] He citeth a sentence as to the same sence out of Prosper de Vocat . Gent. l. 2. c. 6. viz. [ That the Principality of the Apostolick Priesthood , hath made Rome greater through the Tribunal of Religion , than through that of the Empire . ] Which I take to be the true sence of the Poet : but to be greater by Religion than Empire is no more to be Ruler of the World , than if I had said so of Melchizedeck , that he was greater as he was Priest of the most high God , than as he was King of Salem . But there is in the cited place of Prosper none of these words , nor any about any such matter at all ; but there is somewhat like it in cap. 16. which indeed is expository . Ad cujus rei effectum credimus providentia Dei Romani regni latitudinem praeparatam , ut Nationes vocandae ad Unitatem Corporis Christi , prius jure unius consociarentur imperii ; quamvis gratia Christiana non contenta sit eosdem limites habere quos Roma , multosque jam populos sceptro Crucis Christi illa subdiderit quos armis suis ista non domuit . Quae tamen per Apostolici sacerdotii principatum amplior facta est arce Religionis quam solio potestatis . All this we acknowledge that Prosper then said about 466 years after Christ , being Pope Leo's Secretary , and seeing the Church in its greatest outward Glory : The Unity of the Empire prepared for the greatness of the Church , and those that were United in one Empire were United after in one Religion , and yet the Gospel went further than the Empire ; and Rome it self became more honourable in being the seat of the most honourable Christian Bishop , whose Religion extended further than the Empire , than in being the Imperial Seat of Power . The words which he citeth of Leo , I made the lightest of , because he was a Pope himself , and pleaded his own cause more highly than any of his Predecessors , and lived so late ; but yet the words do not serve the Papists turn ; for he at large sheweth that his meaning was , that Rome which was domina mundi , before it wa●… Christian , ( and yet not the Ruler of the World ) was prepared to be the Seat of Peter and Paul , that even the outer Nations , by their Neighbourhood to the Empire , might be capable of the Gospel ; which is a certain Truth . Ut hujus inenarrabilis gratiae per totum mundum diffunderetur effectus , Romanum regnum divina providentia praeparavit ; cujus ad eos limites incrementa perducta sunt , quibus cunctarum undique gentium vicina & contigua esset universitas . Disposito namq divinitatis operi maxime congruebat , ut multa regna uno conf●…derarentur imperio , & cito pervios haberet populos praedicatio generalis , quos unius teneret regimen civitatis . — Nec mundi dominam times Romam , qui in Caiphae domo expaveras sacerdotis ancillam . And mentioning 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at Rome . he saith ▪ ut cos in 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 caput est Christus , quasi geminum constituerit lumen oculorum , de quorum meritis atque vi●…tutibus , que omnem loquendi superant facultatem , nihil diversum , nihil debemus sentire discretum ; quia illos & electio pares , & labor similes , & finis fecit aequales . And in the next Sermon , expounding super hanc petram , thus saith , [ super hanc , inquit , 〈◊〉 ●…ternum extruam templum , & ecclesiae meae caelo inserenda sublimitas , in hujus fidei firmitate consurget . Hanc confessionem portae Inferi non tenebunt , &c. ] And of Tibi dabo claves — [ Transivit quid●…m in Apostolos alios vis illius potestatis ; sed non frustra uni commendatur , quod omnibus intimetur : Petro enim singulariter hoc creditur , quia cunctis ecclesiae rectoribus Petri forma proponitur : Manet ergo Petri privilegium ubicunque ex ipsius fertur aequitate judicium , nec nimia est vel severitas vel remissio . — So Petrus Chrysologus expoundeth super hanc petram , Serm. 74. p. 69. 1. and many others . But it is the way of these Men , to take some Sentence that soundeth , as they think , for sufficient Proof of their Foundations . Leo in his Epistles to Anatolius , and to the Emperour Martian against him , Ep. 54. p. 131. layeth all the Priviledges of the Churches on the Council of Nice , [ Privilegia ecclesiarum sanctorum Patrum Canonibus instituta , & Venerabilis Nicenae Synodi fixa decretis , nulla novitate mutari , &c. He saith , that no later Council , though of greater number , can alter any thing done in the Council of Nice ; — and so none of their Rules for the Churche's Regiment . And in many other Epistles ( to Pulcheria , &c. ) he over and over accuseth him as breaking the Statutes of the Fathers , and Councils , but not the Institution of Christ , or his Apostles . Next he citeth Leo's Epist. 82. to Anastas . But it is in the 84th . and he that will but read it will easily see , that it was but in the Empire that L●…o claimed the final Decision and Appeals . And once more I here appeal to any impartial Man that ever read over all the true Epistles and Decretals of the Popes themselves , and findeth that none of them for 400 , if not 500 years , were ever sent to any extraimperial Church , as any way exercising Authority over them ; yea , and till after 600 ( when Gregory sent into England ) they wrote but to their own Missionaries , or but by way of Counsel , as any Man may do ; whether he can believe they then arrogated the Government of all the World. In the rest of this Chapter there is nothing worth the answering , but that he saith , ( to prove Ethiopia under the Patriarchs of Alexandria , ) That , 1. Some Learned Men think Ethiopia is included in Egypt . 2. That Dr. Heylin and Rosse did regard Pisanus his Nicene Canons ; and their Authority is more than mine . Answ. 1. You are a Learned Man , who take Thracia to have been without the Empire ; and must I therefore be of the same mind ? If your Learned Men cannot distinguish between Egypt , an imperial Province , and the vast and distant Kingdoms of Ethiopia ; What 's that to me ? Is it enough to confute any evident truth , that there was found some Man that was against it ? 2. Nor is the Name of Heylin and Rosse of any more Authority to prove the Antiquity of a late-produced Script , against all the Testimony of the Fathers and Councils near those times , than your own naked Assertion would have been . Is not this a pitiful Proof , that Pisanus's Canons are authentick and ancient , because Dr. Heylin and Rosse regard them ? If you had any better Proof , Why did you not produce it ? An Answer to W. J's fifth Chapter . The thing that I asserted is , 1. That the Pope had never any Governing Power over the whole Earth . 2. Nor anciently over any out of the Empire . 3. Nor a proper Government of the other Patriarchs , or exempt Provinces within the Empire : But that he was ( principally for the honour of the Imperial Seat , and next as to honour , the Memorial of St. Peter ) voluntarily by Councils and Emperours , made the prime Bishop of the Empire ; Alexandria first , and Constantinople after , the second ; Antioch the third , &c. And that not the Pope , but the Emperours , and General Councils were the chief Rulers of the Imperial Churches : But in these Councils the Bishop of Rome had the first Seat , and Alexandria the second : And that this Bishop of Rome had but one Voice ordinarily in Councils , but sometimes he claimed a Negative Voice ; and sometimes Councils have condemned , excommunicated , and deposed him : And in his absence , the Bishop of Alexandria had the same Power as he , when present , had . Now , W. I. here citeth some Testimonies truly , and some falsly , to prove that which I deny not ; that sometimes the last Appeals were made to him , and other Priviledges allowed him , which belonged to the first Bishop of the Empire . I think it but an injury to the Reader to examine them any further . If he will read the Histories and Fathers themselves , he needs not my Testimony : If he will not , my Testimony is no notifying Evidence to him . And upon the perusal of the rest , I find nothing in this Chapter needing , or worthy of any further Answer : And I am sensible that fruitless altercation will be ungrateful to wise and sober Men. An Answer to W. J's . Sixth CHAPTER . § 1. I Noted that under the Heathen Emperours , Church-Associations were but by Voluntary Consent ; and yet then they called in none without the Empire . To this he Replyeth : 1. Denying such Consent . 2. Saying , They could not call them that were Extraimperial to sit with them . Answ. 1. I would he had told us how Provinces were distributed while Emperours were Heathens , if not by Consent : Doth he think that the Pope did it all himself ? Did he make Alexandria , Antioch Patriarchates , and divide to all other Bishops their Seats and Provinces ? If he say this , he will but make us the more wary of such a Disputant ; for he will never prove it . 2. And if by Consent they could not call any without the Empire , then none were Called , which is the Truth . § 2. But he cometh to his grand Proof , That the four first Councils were Univer●… as to all the World : 1. Because they are called General and Oecumenical Councils , by themselves , by the Canons , by Histories , by the whole Christian World ; by the Fathers , by Protestants , by our Statute-Books , by our thirty nine Articles , and by Orthodox Writers . To all which I Answer , Even in Scotland the Presbyterians have their General Assembly , which yet is somewhat less than all the World : And as for their Phrase of Totius Orbis , So it is said in the Gospel , that all the World was Taxed by Augustus . He is very easily perswaded , that after all the Evidence which I have given , and in particular , after the sight of all the subscribed Names at Councils , which were within the Empire , can yet believe that they were the Bishops of all the World , because he readeth the name Oecumenical and Totius Orbis . § 3. But he argueth from the Reason of the thing . 1. Councils were gathered for the Common Peace of Christians . Answ. The Peace of the Christian World is promoted by the Peace of the Empire . 1. As it was the most considerable part then of the whole Christian World. 2. As the welfare of every part conduceth to the welfare of the World. 3. As it is Exemplary and Counselling to all others , but not by Authoritative Command and Constraint . § 4. Secondly , He saith , Else any obstinate Hereticks might but have removed to the Extra-imperial Churches , and been free . Answ. 1. He might , no doubt , have been free from force , unless his own Prince were of the same mind . 2. But he could not have forced the Imperial Churches to have owned him as Orthodox , nor to have forborn renouncing Communion with him . 3. And surely if it was Heresie which he was guilty of , it was so before it was declared so by the Council , and therefore might be so known by that Extraimperial Church to which he should remove . § 5. Thirdly , The same Answer serveth to his third Reason : That If any Imperial Country were won from the Empire , they would be free ; not free from other Mens disowning or renouncing them . I told you before , the plain words of Theodoret , That James , : Bishop of Nisibis was at the Council of Nice , for Nisibis was then under the Roman Empire . § 6. Fourthly , The same Answer sufficeth to his fourth Reason : That a Nation Conquered would have been brought under the Council , and Faith would have depended on the Fortune of War. Answ. True , If Faith were no Faith without a General Council's determination ; and if there was no Faith in the World before there was a General Council , nor any Christian before Constantine's time . What if only a Provincial Council had Condemned any Heresie ? Consider how far the Extraimperialists had been Obliged by it . The Truth and Reason of the decision would have Obliged them . § 7. Fifthly , He saith , It would follow , that the Kingdoms that are now fallen from that Empire should have no Successive descending Obligation to the four first General Councils . Answ. Not at all as Subjects to Men dead and gone , nor as if the Canons of those Councils were a Law properly Divine , and so bound us as meer Subjects of God ; nor yet as Subjects to the present Patriarchs of Rome , Alexandria , Antioch , &c. whose Predecessours made those Canons . But 1. The Word of God which they declared , bound Men before , and bindeth them since in all Nations of the World. 2. And God Obligeth us to do all things in as much Love and Concord as we can . And when the greatest part of the Christian World agree upon any thing Lawful and convenient , an Obligation for Concord may hence arise on others , without any Subjection to a Governing Authority . And in these two respects such Councils may Oblige us , but not as Subjects . § 8. Sixthly , His last Reason is , That those Extraimperial Christians who embraced the Heresies Condemned in any one of those Councils , never alledged this Reason . Answ. 1. Those Councils themselves had more Modesty than to say , This is a Heresie because we have Iudged it so , for it was so before by the Judgment of Gods Word : It had been therefore a frivolous Defence of Heresie , to say , We are not Subject to the Council , unless they could have said , We are not Subject to the Law of God. 2. What Extraimperial Nations mean you , that owned Condemned Heresie ? If the Arrian Goths , they Learned it from Valens and the General Councils of the Empire . If the Nestorians and Eutychians , prove that any Extraimperial Nations were such : If they were guilty of any Heresie , what Occasion had they to alledge such Reasons to Justifie themselves , to Men that never sent or urged the Authority of such Councils on them . Prove you first that ever any General Council for five hundred Years did Judge any Extraimperial Bishops , or Depose any one of them for Heresie . 3. But your Sect use to accuse the Abassines as Eutychians ; and Godiguus and others will tell you that they deny that they were under the Pope . § 9. I told him that some Hereticks are not Christians univocally , and others so called were better Christians than the Papists : The former are not of the Christian Church , the latter are . It is not an Usurpers calling others Hereticks , that will blot their Names out of the Book of Life . To this he saith , That I should have told him which of them I take for Univocal Christians , and that they had the Names given them long agoe . Answ. 1. By what Authority can you require me , if you name Men by an hundred Nick-names , to tell you all over which of these I account Christians ? Is it not enough that I tell you in General , that I account all those Christians that hold all the Essential parts of Christianity , and renounce none of them . 2. How long soever Men are Calumniated , that proveth not the Calumny Just. It is long since the General Council at Basil pronounced the Pope an Heretick , and that it is Heresie to deny that a General Council may Judge him ; and yet the Papists believe not this Council . § . 10. I told him that I had rather be in the case of many that have been burnt as Hereticks , than of the Pope and others that burnt them . His Answer to this is , He wisheth me better , and he bringeth many Accusations against the Albigenses ; as if we had never disproved those Calumnies ; which hath been so long and fully done , as among others by Bishop Usher , D●… Statu & success . Ecclesiar . and Paul Perrin . It being a Company of Manichees only that were scattered among the Albigenses and waldenses , that were guilty of the Heresies mentioned by him ( as I have also shewed in my Confutation of Mr. Danvers the Anabaptist . ) § . 11. I told him that All those that were true Christians , were of one Universal Church . And he again canteth over the Nick-names of some , and would know which of them I mean. And I told him again , that I mean all that owned the Essentials of Christianity ; Perhaps such a Monothelite as Pope Honorius , might be a Christian. I told you before that Anatolius in the Council openly said that Dioscorus was not condemned for Heresie ; And I would most Papists were as good Christians as we have reason to think the Novatians were . The name of Luciferians , Quartodecimani , Iconoclasts , Waldens●…s , Hugonotes , Lutheranes , Zuinglians , Calvinists , &c. unchristian none ; no more than the name of Papists . And it is worth the noting , 1. How zealous Macedonius , Nestorius and Dioscorus were against Hereticks , and how hot in persecuting them , and stirring up the Emperours against them , and by this were carryed into those Errors for which they were condemned as Hereticks themselves . 2. And how long it was oft in doubt which party should be accounted Hereticks , till the countenance of Emperors turned the Major Vote of the Bishops Right . In the dayes of Constantius and Valens the Orthodox went for Hereticks with the greater mumber : And under Valentinian and Theodosius they were Catholicks , under Theodosius junior the Eutychians went for Catholicks , and under Martian they were condemned . The same Bishops went one way at Sirmium and Ariminum , ( with old Osius ) who after repented and went the other way ; And the same Bishops went one way at the Second Council of Ephesus , who recanted at the Council of Calcedon : and how long was the case of the Monothelites in doubt , and the Iconoclasts , much longer . § . 12. When I told him that it is only our Relation to Christ the Head , that maketh all Christians one Church , he saith that Christ is but our Causal and not Formal Unity , and that Faith and Charity are not necessary to make us Members . Answ. As the union of King and Subjects maketh one Kingdom , so the union of Christ and Christians maketh one Church ; and we call none Christians that profess not true Faith and Charity ( and their seed . ) But he saith , the Question is How a Heretick or Schismatick can be a true Christian. Answ. Ambiguous words are the game of deceivers , and to open the ambiguity marreth their cause . The word Heretick I have told you signifieth either one that denyeth an Essentiall part of Christianity , or one that only denyeth an Integral part ; The former are no Christians ; the latter may . § . 13. But he will prove that no Heretick is a Christian , or hath true Faith , viz. [ Whoever hath true faith believeth the material object of faith , for the Divine authority of God revealing it . ( That is certain ) But so doth no Heretick . That 's very false of both sorts of Hereticks . 1. You call the Luciferians , the Novatians , &c. Hereticks ; and who can see reason to doubt but they might believe that all that God saith is true ? 2. Overdoing is undoing : As you are the greatest causes of Schisme by overdoing as against Schisme , so you would justifie almost all the Hereticks in the world by your blind overdoing , as against Hereticks ; and while you would make most or much of Christs Church to be Hereticks , you would make men believe that there are none . All that believe that there is a God , believe that he is Verax , no Lyar , but true . All that believe that God is no Lyar , but true of his word , believe all to be true which they judge to be his word . But saith W. I , no Heretick believeth any thing on the authority of God revealing , that is , because God that revealeth it is true : And so all those that believe that God is true , and that any thing is true because he revealeth it , are no Hereticks . And who knoweth other mens hearts better , You or They ? You take me ( it's like ) for a Heretick , I say that I believe that God cannot Lye , and I believe in Christ because God the ●…evealer is true . You say , Then I am no Heretick . If an Arrian can but truly say , that he believeth all Gods word to be true , but he taketh not Christs Consubstantial eternal Deity to be Gods word ; you will justifie him to be no Heretick : And yet the poor Iconoclasts , the Waldenses , the Berengarians can find no place in this mans Church , when yet he thus acquitteth almost all Hereticks in the whole world . Nothing but humerous singularity can pretend any probable reason why an Arrian , a Nestorian , an Eutychian , a Monothelite , yea a Mahometan , or other Infidel , may not believe that God is no Lyar , but all that is indeed his word is true . § . 14. But he will not be unreasonable without reason . His Argument is [ Whosoever believeth the material object of Faith , for the Divine Authority of God revealing it , must believe all things which are as sufficiently propounded to him to be revealed of God , as are the Articles which he believeth , protesteth to , and believe nothing as revealed , which is as sufficiently declared to him to be erroneous , and not revealed &c. But every Heretick — doth otherwise — If he believe some and refuse others equally propounded ; it is not for Divine Authority . Answ. If you believe this reasoning your self , you deserve little belief from others . 1. The word [ sufficiently ] propounded will never sufficiently be expounded by you , nor ever is like to be . Sometimes by sufficient [ as in the Dominicans controversie of sufficient grace ] is meant that which quo posito res fieri potest , & sine quo non potest : And so taken as necessarium or possible for the minimum tale , it hath no degrees . But usually we take sufficient in such a latitude as that things may be in many degrees , one more sufficient than another , that is , more apt and powerfull to produce the effect . And for the first , remember that if you judge so mercifully of Hereticks as that no one is such that hath not a proposal in the very first sense sufficient , you can call no Arrian , nor Photinian , or Gnostick a Heretick , till you know that the Proposal was to him sufficient . And how much less can you call the Nestorians or Eutychians , or the Abassines , Syrians , Armenians , &c. Hereticks , when you know them not , and know not the sufficiency of their proposals ? And to know that a proposal was sufficient to Nestorius , Eutyches , or Dioscorus , doth not prove that there was such sufficient proposal to all others that go under such names either then or now . Who knoweth not that an unlearned man hath need of clearer and ofter teaching than the Learned ; and one that by Education is prepossest with contrary conceptions hath need of more than the unprejudiced ; and one that is corrupted by sensual lusts hath need of more than the temperate ? And what man is well able to judge of the measures of sufficiency as to other then : much less to whole Nations whom we know not . 2. But as to your Minor ; which by the word [ as sufficiently ] sheweth that you take sufficiency as it hath degrees , here you seem plainly to absolve all the Hereticks in the world , e. g. As if a Monothelite were no Heretick unless it be as sufficiently , in degree revealed that Christ hath two wills , as it is that he is the Christ and rose again ; or , as if an Arrian were no Heretick , unless it be as sufficiently revealed that Christ is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of the same substance with the Father , as it is that he dyed . 3. And the supposition in your Minor is notoriously false , ( that all Hereticks have as sufficient a proposal of all they deny , as of that which they believe . ) For if the meaning of the words revealing be not equally plain and intelligible , then the proposal is not equally sufficient . But &c Can any man not blinded by faction believe that God hath no more plainly told us that Christ dyed , rose and ascended , than that he hath two distinct wills , or that he hath but one person , or that his mother is to be called The parent of God , and one that did beget and bring forth God , and that God dyed , yea or that Christ is God of God , Light of Light , very God of very God , and yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not only from the same substance , but the same substance ? Though these are equally true , they are not equally clear and evident . Do the Quartodecimani , the Luciferians , the Iovinians deny Truthes as sufficiently proposed , as that there is a God , or a Christ ? If you say that though they be not equally proposed in Scripture , yet they are by Councils or Traditions . I Answer 1. Were they no points of Faith , nor the denyal Heresie , for 300 years before the first General Council ? 2. When they of Constance and Basil are for the Supremacy of Councils as de fide , and they of Laterane and Florence against them , when the Council of Basil decreed the Immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary , and yet you take it for a controversie , &c. are these as sufficiently proposed , as that there is a God or Christ ? 3. When Petavius citeth the words of most of the Doctors or Fathers that wrote before the Council of Nice , and of Eusebius himself that was of the Council , and subscribed it , as being for Arrianisme , or dangerously favouring it , did all these Fathers think that the proposal of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was as sufficient as of a God or Christ. § . 15. He taketh upon him to clear his Argument by two deluding instances , which suppose an equality in the revelation : But he that knoweth not , 1 , that it was long before all the Canonical books were equally known to be Gods word . 2. And that yet it is not equally certain what Councils are true , and what Traditions . 3. And that there is great difference between one Text of Scripture and another in intelligible places ( else why do their Expositions so disagree ) yea , of Councils too . 4. And that the Hereticks have still pleaded Scripture and Tradition , and Councils , as well as the Orthodox ( as the Eutychians , &c. did the Council of Nice ; ) all equally professing to believe Scripture , Tradition , and true Councils , but not equally understanding them : I say , he that knoweth not all this , knoweth not the matters of Fact which should be known in this Dispute . But how he will excuse the Papists from Heresie by his Reasoning , I know not , e. g. Christ Instituting his . Supper , saith equally : 1. This is my Body , and This is the New Testament . 2. And equally saith , Take , Eat and Drink this . The Papists , 1. Do not believe that literally this Cup is the New Testament , though equally said . 2. Nor do they believe that they must Drink of it , though equally Commanded . Ergo , by W. I's Arguing , The Papists believe not that the Bread is literally Christs Body , or that it must be Eaten because of Christs Truth or Authority that spake it , else they would have believed both . § . 16. He addeth a Supposition like the rest , that a Calvinist is assured that the Pope is not the Antichrist , by the same Authority which he acknowledgeth to be the sufficient proposer of the Articles of his Faith. And yet here may lie one of his usual Equivocations : The Authority of the Author and prime Revealer of the Gospel is one ; and the Authority of the prime Instrumental Revealers is another . The first is Gods , the second is the Prophets and Apostles : Tell us where either of these say that the Pope it not Antichrist . But the Authority of a distant Messenger and Teacher is of a third rank . : A Drunken or Fornicating Priest may be such a Messenger or Teacher , and may give an Infidel those Reasons of the Faith , which by Gods Blessing may bring him to Believe . And it is possible such a Priest ( and a Synod of such ) may say that the Pope is not Antichrist , and another Synod may say he is . § . 17. I came next to Answer a question of his own , Whether I take the Church of Rome and the Protestants to be one Church ? I Answered , that They have two Heads , and We but one : As they are meer Christians united in Christ , they are one Church with us ; as Papists united in the Pope they are not . And if any so hold the Papacy , as not really to hold Christianity , those are not of the Christian Church with us ; otherwise they are ; though a Corrupt , Diseased , Erroneous part . To this he saith , who ever called a King and his Viceroy , a Captain and Lieutenant two Heads ? The Pope is a dependent Officer . Answ. 1. But if you distinguish between a Visible Head and an Invisible , and say , that the Pope only is the Visible Head of the Church as Visible , and that Christ is only the Invisible Head by Influx ; and that it were a Monstrous Body if it had not such a Visible Head ( as you do : ) 2. And if this Visible Head be an Usurpation , never owned by Christ ; then I have reason to distinguish the Policy which is of Gods making , from that which is an Usurpation , and of Mens relations accordingly . If any King should say , I am a Vice-God , or Gods Viceroy to Govern all the Earth , ●…nd that by Gods Appointment , and none can be saved that Obey me not ; I would distinguish between the World , or particular Persons , as Gods Subjects , and as this Vice-Gods Subjects . § 18. But he saith , Is it possible for two Persons to be Papists , and one to destroy his Christianity and the other not ? Answ. Yes , very possible and common : That is , one holdeth those Errors which by consequence subvert some Article of the Christian Faith , but as to the Words not understood , or not understanding the consequences ; or only speculatively , and at the same time holdeth the subverted Articles ( not discerning the contradiction ) fastly and practically ; another doth the contrary . Even as a Monothelite , or a Nestorian , or Eutychian may either be one that only as to the Words , or superficially erreth , and in sence , or practically holds the Truth , or one that is contrary . This should seem no strange thing to you ; for even a Man that professeth only Christianity may do it , but Nomine tenus , not understanding it ; or superficially and not practically , and be no true Christian indeed . § . 19. When I exprest my hope that even he and I as Christians are of one Church , he will not believe it , 1. Because I am of a Church by my self ; neither of theirs nor any other part . 2. Because I have no Faith. Answ. It seems then that meer Christianity is no Faith , and that there are none of the meer Christian Church but I. But who will believe the latter , and when will he prove either ? An Answer to W. J's Seventh CHAPTER . § . 1. TO his Question , Why we separated from them ? I Answered , that as they are Christians we separate not from them : As Papists we were never of them , but our Fore-fathers thought Repentance of Sin to be no Sin. If by Popery they separate from Christianity , they are damnable Separatists ; if they do not , we are of the same Church , whether they will or not . 〈◊〉 To this he saith , That We separate from them as much as the Pelagians , Donatists , Acacians , Luciferians , Nestorians , and Eutychians did from the Church . Answ. 1. The Doctrinal Errors and the Separation are of different consideration . The Pelagians Erred as some Dominicans say the Iesuites do . The Donatists , like the Papists , appropriated the Church to their own Bishops and Party ; we do none of this . Lucifer Calaritanus was too Zealous against the Arrians , not communicating with them upon so short Repentance as others did : But they went not so far , as Crab saith the Roman Council in Sylvester's day●… did , that Received no Repentance before forty Years : Nor so far as the honest Elebertine Council in the number of Years of Mens exclusion from the Communion . I take Lucifer for Erroneous and Schismatical , but not comparable to the Papists , who err far more , and yet separate from most of the Christian World. These Schismaticks named by you Sinned by unjust separation from the Imperial Churches near them , but they did not separate from all the World save themselves , as the Papists do . And if you believe History , you will find that some of them did not separate themselves , till they were Anathematized and cast out by others . Nestorius retired and Lived four Years in great repute in his Old Monastery near Antioch . The Novatians were too scrupulous of joyning with Wicked Priests and People : And your Writers say , that Pope Nicholas forbad hearing Mass from a Fornicator Priest. I had rather be in this of the Pope and the Novatians mind than of those Catholick Priests . 2. But I think this is a considerable Difference : The Erroneous Schismaticks of those times , much more the proper Hereticks , did sinfully withdraw from the Communion of most of the Universal Church , to profess some Error of their own in singular Conventicles . But we , who take meer Christianity for our Religion , do own Communion with the far greatest part of the Church on Earth ; yea , with all as Christian , and sepa●…ate not for Error , but only from Error and Sin : We separate from Pelagians as Pelagians , from Novatians as Novatians , and from Papists as Papists , but not as Christians . You say , No more did they then . I Answer , 1. They separated from Truth , and we from Error , as the Council that condemned him did from Pope Honorius . 2. The Luciferians and Novatians separated Voluntarily ; we are cast out by you from Christian Communion , and are counted Separatists unless we will Sin with you , or be burnt as Hereticks , 3. Let the Reader still note the cheating ambiguity of your word [ Separation . ] The Schismaticks named , separated from Brotherly Communion , but we separate from Tyrannical Usurped Domination ; and are called Schismaticks ( not because we will not have such Communion with you in all Christian Truth and Duty , but ) because we will not be your Vassals or Subjects , and Sin as oft as you command us . § . 2. Pag. 155. He saith , That Had we deserted the sole Communion of the Papacy ▪ it might have born some show of Defence ; but seeing when we separated from that we remained separated as much from all particular Visible Churches in the World , as that ; you have no Excuse . Answ. If the Reader have not a very gross Head , he shall see your Calumny . As your Church is Essentiated by the Papal Head , so far we renounce the very Essence of your Church : None of the rest of the Christian World pretend to any such Universal Head but Christ. Therefore we separate not from their Head , or any Essential part of their Church , as such . We separate as far as we are able from the corrupt Accidents and faults of every Church and Christian , and would fain separate more from our own . As we separate from the Abassines in the point of their oft Baptizing , and from the Muscovites , Greeks , Armenians , as to their Ignorance and some Mistakes and Vices : And so we would separate from Drunkenness , Fornication , Covetousness , Simony , false Subscriptions , Lies , &c. in any , where we find them in the World : But this is not Schism or separating from the Church . Dare you say that this is not our Duty ? Will you joyn in Sin with every Sinful Church for fear of Schism ? § . 3. But he saith , That any Arrian will say so , That he separateth not from the Church as Christian. Answ. We have brave Disputing with a Man that cannot , or will not distinguish between Saying and doing . Doth it follow that an Arrian doth not separate from the Church as Christian , because they say they do not ? I prove the contrary . He that separateth from the Church for an Ess●…ntial part of Christianity , separateth from the Church as Christian ; but so do the Arrians ; Ergo : I prove the Minor. He that separateth , as denying the God-head of Christ , separateth for and from an Essential part of Christianity ; but so do the Arrians , Eunomians , Photinians , Samosatemans , Socinians , &c. Ergo — § . 4. Next I opened their dealing with us , that call us Schismaticks , because we will not willingly Sin with them , and be burnt by them , as if it were our Ashes that refused their Communion ; or because Princes will punish wicked Priests , or as Solomon cast out Abiathar , and put Zadok in his place , or will not be Subject to a Foreign Usurper , &c. To this he saith , It is a Rhetorical Exclamation and whole Kingdoms condemned by the Popes Canons to the Flames , must take such an Answer as that for their Lives . And he again calls on me to name any Visible Church which we separated not from , which I am aweary of answering so oft . § . 5. He ask'd me whether Subordination and Obedience to the same State and Government , is not as well required to our Church as to our Common-wealth ? I Answered , Yes : But as all the World is not one Humane Kingdom , so neither is it one Humane Church . To this he repeateth his old [ Visible and Invisible ] taking it for granted , that the Church must have one meer Humane Visible Head or Governour ( Personal or collective ) which yet he knoweth is the great thing which I deny , and he had to prove , which if he did ; all his work were done . § . 6. I Noted that their own Divines are not agreed whether Hereticks and Schismaticks are parts of the Church . To this he saith , That 1. He speaks of Parts of the Church , as I understand parts : Answ. Who would have thought till now but he had spoken as he thought himself . 2. He saith , That I hold that some Hereticks , properly so called , are parts of the Church of Christ , and united to Christ their Head , believing the Essentials of Christianity , and so are Christians , though Erring in some Accidents ; and this is contrary to all Christianity , and a Nov●…lty never held before by any Christian. Answ. But such gross Falshoods as yours , and such deceits have been used before by many Papists . 1. Where did I say that such as err only in some Accidents , are properly called Hereticks ? I distinguished De re & ratione nominis , but undertook not to tell from the Etymology of the word , which is the only proper sence of Heresie ; but according to the vulgar use of the word among us , it is taken for one that denieth some Essential : But with such as you I see it is taken more largely ; and I am not sure that at first it was not taken for any Separation or Schism into distinct Sects . All that I say ( you may be ashamed to call me ▪ so oft to repeat it ) is , That 1. Many are called Hereticks by Papists , yea●… by Philastrius and Epiphanius , that were true Christians , for ought is said against them ( yea , Philastrius numbereth some certain Truths with Heresies , when his contrary Errors are liker such . ) 2. That they that erre in some Accidents may be true Christians , or else I think there is none at Age in the World. 3. That there is much lamentable Schism , which is no Separation from the whole Church . 4. That he shall be saved that holdeth all the Essentials of Christianity truly and practically . 5. I have proved that your Definitions absolve more from 〈◊〉 and Schism than I do . But it 's here to be noted , That this Man maketh multitudes to be under the Papal Head , that are no Subjects of Christ our Head ; and so that the Pope hath a Church of his own that is none of Christs Church . § . 7. I Noted , That either their Church hath defined , that 〈◊〉 and S●…hismaticks are no parts of the Church , or not : If not ; how can he stand to it and impose it on me ? If they have , then their Doctors that say the contrary , ( named by Bellarmine ) are all 〈◊〉 themselves . He saith , None of ours ever held them parts , as you do ; that is , united to Christ by Faith and Charity . Answ. Is not this Man hard put to it ? All this while he hath been Disputing us , and all called by their Usurping censure Hereticks , out of the Church Visible ; and calling on me to prove the perpetuity of our Church Visible ; and telling me , that without a more Visible Head than Christ it is not Visible . And yet now it is but the Invisible ▪ Church as Headed by Christ , and endowed with true Faith and Charity , which these Doctors of theirs exclude Hereticks and Schismaticks from . § . 8. I said , Arrians are no Christians , denying Christs Essence . He replyeth , True , and so do all H●…reticks . I Answer , If indeed they did so , not only in words not understood , but in the und●…tood sence , so that this is really their belief , and really Exclusive of the contrary Truth ; I place no such Hereticks in the Church . He proveth his charge thus : Whosoever denyeth Christs most Infallible Veracity and Divine Authority denyeth somewhat Essential to Christ ; but so doth every Heretick properly called . Answ. Away with such Hereticks as do so indeed . For the Minor , he cometh to the old obscurity , Whosoever denyeth that to be true which is sufficiently propounded to him to be Revealed by Christ , denyeth Christs Verity and Divine Authority ; but so doth every Heretick . Answ. I have oft enough shewed , 1. That the Argument is useless , because no Man can judge of the Sufficiency of Proposals ( till they come to very high degrees ) as to the capacities of other Men. 2. That the Major is false : For a Man that doubteth not of Christs Verity and Authority , may not understand ( and so may deny ) many Truths sufficiently propounded , hindering the understanding of them by sloth , senfuality , partiality , prejudice , or other faults . Can any Man doubt of this ? 3. That his Minor also is false : He may be a Heretick that denyeth that which is not sufficiently proposed , if his own crime either blinding his mind , or forfeiting better proposals , cause the insufficiency . § . 9. I noted how they charge one another with Pelagianisme ; And he saith , Not in the point of Original Sin. Answ. And is all the rest come now to be no Heresie ? Was it for nothing else that they were judged Hereticks ? The rest should have as fair play , if your interest were but as much for it ? § . 10. But saith he [ Who ever , before you , said that the Catholick-Church could be divided it self , when it is a most perfect unity ; A grand novelty of yours . Answ. This is because I said , that some make divisions in the Church , that divide not from it , much less from the whole . I proved before that in this sense Paul usually speaketh against Schisme or Divisions , As when he tells the Corinthians of the divisions among them , &c. But this man would make Scripture and common sense and reason to be grand novelties ; may there not be divisions in a House , in a Kingdom , in an Army , in a particular Congregation , as that at Corinth ; and that after which Clement wrote his Epistle to heal ? Have there not been abundance of such at Alexandria , Antioch , Constantinople ? was there no Division in the Church of Rome , when part cleaved to one Pope , and part to another for above forty years ? Did the Councils of Constance and Basil meet to heal their Schismes , upon mistake when there was no such thing ? And do all their Historians erroneously number their Schisms ? Reader pardon my oft answering such bold abuses ; These are their arguers that hope to subvert England . § . 11. And his reason is such as would shew him a Catharist , viz. The Church is a most perfect Unity ; If so , than all grace is perfect which is necessary to perfect unity . Then the Popes and Anti-Popes , the warring Papalines and Imperialists , the Iesuites , Dominicans , and Iansinists are all at perfect Unity ; Then there is no disagreement , of Judgement Will or Practice among any Papists in the world ; no Volumes written against other ; Alas , how far are such words from proving it , or from ending their present Controversies or Wars . Watson and Preston had scarce perfect unity with Father Parsons and the Iesuites . Doth perfect unity draw all the blood between France and the house of Austria , or in France , between King Hen. ●…d . and the Leaguers . It is enough for me to believe that all true Christians have a true unity in Christ , with each as his members , but that this Unity among themselves is sadly imperfect , and so was when they had all the contentions in many General Councils , and when the people have oft fought it out to blood about Religion , and the choice of Bishops , at Alexandria , Rome , &c. Is this perfection ? It is in heaven that we hope for perfect unity , where all is perfect . § . 12. I told him , Heresie being a personal crime , the Nations cannot be charged with it Without better proofs . He saith , if he hath . 1. the testimony of one of our Writers . ( Answ. Alas poor Kingdoms of Christians ! that can be proved Hereticks if Pet. Heylin or any one of our Writers do but say it . ) 2. He tells a story of Prestor Iohn sending to Rome for instruction ( Answ. Confuted so oft , and by their own Writers , that it 's a shame to repeat it . Nor doth that prove them so much as Papists , much less Hereticks . ) 3. That their Canon of the Mass , proveth them Eutychians , in that they name the three former Councils , and not that of Calcedon . ) Answ. Small proof will serve the turn with such willing men . What if Dioscorus made them believe that That Council did condemn the doctrine of Cyril ( which he verily thought was the same which he defended ) and rejected the Nicene Creed ( which he appealed to ) and that they divided Christ ? Might not the consent of the neighbour Egyptian Bishops put them out of conceit with that Council , though they owned no Heresie ? Do not your Writers now ordinarily quit them of such Heresie ? Do they that disown the Councils of Constance or Basil , own all the Errors or Schismes which They condemned ? You justifie the Abassines when you tell men that your calumnies have no better show of truth . § . 13. Erasmus laments the Age when it became a matter of the highest wit and subtilty to be a Christian. This seemeth about Cyrils dayes , when mens salvation and all the Churches peace and safety was thought to be at stake , upon the controversies , Whether de Christo Locutio formalis an materialis erat maximè propria . An Deus à Sp. Sancto in Virgine concipi & ab ipsâ generari propriè diceretur . Whether Nestorius was a Heretick for saying that he would not say God was two or three months old . And when poor Eutyches and Dioscorus for want of skill thought verily they had spoken but what Cyril taught them , and became Hereticks by it before they were aware ; when the grand Question was , whether the word persona had such a signification , as that Christs Humane Nature might be called any part of his Person ; or whether the Divine Nature , which is infinite , can be Pars : And whether if the Humane be Pars personae , then that Personality which was from Eternity without the Humane , could be the same with that Personality of which the Humane was a part ? Or if the Humane be no part of the Person , but an Accident , whether it be proper to denominate the Person and Essence from an Accident , so as to say , God was begotten of Mary ? God was two Moneths old ! God was dead and buried , ascended , &c. And when the whole Salvation of Men seemed to lye on the curiosity , How far two Natures , or two wills so nearly united as to have a communication of Names and Epithets , might be said to be made One ? No doubt but in all these the Orthodox were in the right : But it 's pity that when Logick was so denyed in the Council of Nice , and Apollinaris blamed for too much using it , and the Council at Carthage forbad the use of the Heathens Books , yet so many Men must burn in Hell for being no better Logicians or more metaphysical ; and all Men to the end of the World must be numbred with them , that do not anathematize them . And that Millions of Ignorant Men and Women in Abassia , Syria , Armenia , &c. that know nothing of these Matters , nor ever heard of them , to whom they are as an unknown Tongue , must all be unchristened and damned as Hereticks ; yea , for not owning a Council that most ( it's like ) never heard of . Alas , how few in England , Ireland , or any Countrey know what the Council of Chalcedon did , or ever heard it ? But yet all these Hereticks ( two or three parts of the World ) have an easie way of Recovery : It is but to believe as the Pope of Rome believes , though they know not what , and take him for their Sovereign , and they are safe . But the final Judgment is more Just. § . 14. Pag. 169. He addeth , The Abassines confess themselves to follow Eutyches and Dioscorus , and therefore there needeth neither Tryal nor Conviction . Answ. 1. Where is your Proof that they so confess ? We will not confess that this is no Slander . 2. Alas , how few of them know who Eutyches and Dioscorus were ! 3. And of those that Honour their Names how few know what they held ? 4. Your own Writers acquit them of that Heresie . 5. The Truth is , the Tradition of their Countrey teacheth them to Honour Dioscorus for his place sake ; but I cannot learn that the Name of Eutyches is known or Honoured much by them . 6. O that the Papists had not more and greater Errors than either Nestorius or Eutyches , and that you condemned not your selves in condemning the Abassines . § . 15. Let the Reader Note , that this Man would first have us believe that the Abassines and others , whom they call Hereticks , are Subjects of the Pope , and of their Church , and yet that they are Hereticks , and so that Hereticks are no parts of the Church , and yet that they are parts of their Church . His shameless calling for proof that any of their Writers acquit them from these Heresies , shall not tempt me to lose my time in citing them . § . 16. Next we come to his charge , That the Greek Church rejects us as well as they : Therefore the whole Church rejecteth us . Therefore we are to be rejected ( Hereticks ) or else the whole Church is deceived . Answ. 1. * He that never read Church-History , may think that there is some signification in this Cant of , The whole Church , and the Universal Church : But so will not he , that knoweth how the Prelates have usually turned to the stronger side , and that if the Majority be the whole , the whole Church was Orthodox in Constantines days , and the whole Church was Arrian in the days of Constantius and Valens ; the whole Church was Eutychian in Theodosius Junior's days , and long Monothelites , and Iconoclasts , &c. 2. If it prove Men to be Hereticks or Schismaticks because the Major part reject them , then the Orthodox were Hereticks when the foresaid Arrians rejected them . But you have been so long used to Usurp Christs Chair , that you seem to be grown to believe your selves , that a Man is out of Christs Church , if other Men do but say that he is out . As if you knew not that the Church is to put no Man farther from Christ , but only to declare how far from him they have put themselves . And if any declare more than is true , it doth not separate the wronged Person from Christ. e. g. I heard but yesterday divers Persons Excommunicated , some for Teaching School without License , and some for other such like things : Doth it follow , that these are any further out of the Church than they put themselves ? 3. But tell us , if you can , when the Greek Church , or Patriarch of Constantinople did presume to Excommunicate us ? You will not tell us . How then doth their rejection signifie that we are not of the same Church ? The Truth is , the Greek Church never declared their mind concerning us : If you will call one Man , or twenty Men the Greek Church , you may use your Liberty , but we shall little regard it . In the days of one Patriarch ( Cyril ) he declareth for us , and our Reformation : The Papists in Charity get him Murdered . Another ( Ieremiah ) declareth his dissent from us ; but it is one thing to dissent from some things , and another thing to take Men for none of the Church . If you will charge the Greeks to be such Separatists , as to unchurch or unchristen all that they in controverted ▪ Points dissent from : We will not believe you in so ugly a charge , till you have proved it . The Greeks disown us , and we them , in some lesser things , but neither they nor we presume to unchristen one another . And if they or we did , it would unchristen none of us , unless we first unchristened our selves . 4. But if the Greeks have the supream authority , as the virtual universal Church , then the Papists have it not ; if the Papists have it , the Greeks have it not : If neither hath it , who hath it ? Neither of you , nor both are the real Universal Church , and neither is Virtually the Universal . Therefore if both did Excommunicate us , we are not therefore Excommunicate by the Church Universal . 5. But may the Church Universal erre in Excommunicating , or not ? If so , then you have said nothing : If not , you take a General Council to be indeed the Church representative : ●…nd then how many of your Popes ( Essential parts of your Church ) have been Excommunicated , and deposed as Hereticks by the Universal Church ? And your Church now is but the Successour of ( e. g. Eugenius the fourth ) so rejected : Shew us when ever the Greeks did so by our Church or us . § . 17. I told him , the Greek Church claimed but the Primacy or Supremacy in the Empire , and not the Government of all the World. At this , he first wondreth , and then takes upon him to disprove it . 1. Because else Gregory the first had ill reprehended John of Constant. for claiming the Title of Universal Bishop . 2. Because Jeremy saith , 1. He was Vice Christi : 2. And perswadeth Lucius , &c. to be Subject to the Church with them . Answ. 1. It was the Arrogancy of the Title that Gregory reprehended , as sounding like a real Universal Claim , and the reality of an Universal Claim in the Empire . I proved before , that the Greeks knew that Constant. had no Title , Iure Divine , by the Can. 28 of Chalcedon , and the notoriety of the thing : And therefore they could not pretend it to be over all the World , where the Empire had no Power . And what need there more proof , than that there is no Evidence brought by you or any , that ever they gave Laws to all the Christian World ; or that ever they called Councils out of it , or that ever they set up and put down Bishops in it ? Indeed they have Excommunicated Roman Popes ; but that was within the Empire , ( and so did Alexandria . ) Or if since , ( as they do still ) it is not as their Governours , but as any Churches may renounce Communion with Hereticks , or Persons uncapable of their Communion . 2. And as for Ieremy , 1. Will not Cyril as much prove the contrary ? 2. Is one Man the Greek Church ? 3. Did every Apostle , or doth every Minister of Christ proclaim himself Universal Head of the Church , when he saith , as 2 Cor. 5. 19. We beseech you , Vice Christi in Christs stead to be reconciled to God ? It is one thing to be Preachers in Christs stead to our particular Flocks , and another thing to Usurp Christs proper Office , and be in his stead Universal Governour of the World. 4. And may not one of us , or any Christian perswade a Man to be Subject to the Church of Christ ? And if Ieremias had a mind to Rule further than the Empire , now the Empire is Mahome●…an , and Subjects Voluntary and free , what wonder is it ? We undertake not to Justifie him from all Ambition . § . 18. I told him , out of his Ieremias , and his Protonotary Iohn Zygomolas , that they confessed Agreement with us [ In continuis & causam fidei praecipuè continentibus articulis ; ] and that [ Quae videntur consensum impedire talia sunt , si velit quis , ut facilè ●…a corrig●…re possit . ] He tells me , That , 1. Yet they consent with them in all save the Popes Authority . Answ. 1. How far that is from Truth , Thom. a Iesu , and other of your own will tell you . 2. And the Popes Authority is the ratio formalis of Popery . 2. He saith . That Ier. claimeth as Supream Authority over the whole Church , as the Pope doth . Answ. 1. I will not believe it till I see the proof : I find he layeth all his Claim from Councils , and therefore may possibly claim power over those Churches that were in the Empire when the Council of Chalcedon gave that power ; but I find no more : And if he did , they and we may yet be Christians . 3. He saith , Any of the Roman Church might write the like to the Lutherans : But Zygomalas supposeth them of two Churches , till united . Answ. He supposeth them not in all things of the same mind , nor of the same particular Churches . But he that saith , that we agree in the Articles of Faith , and differ but in lesser things of easie reconciliation , either supposeth both Parties to be Christians , and of one Church of Christ , or else that no Men are Christians that have any Difference , that is no two explicite Believers , perhaps , in the World. § . 19. I told him , 1. The Patriarch was not the Greek Church : Nor , 2. Their lesser Errors prove us of two Religions or Churches . He Replyeth : 1. But he knew the Extent of his own Iurisdiction . Answ. 1. So do not all Ambitious Men : If he do , then the Papists are all deceived ; for he pretended , say you , a Jurisdiction over the Pope and his Church . But the Question between him and the Protestants , w●… not about his Jurisdiction . 2. He saith , That If the Errors be tolerable , we are Schismaticks in Separating from them , and should rather have suffered . Answ. To separate from any sin and error , by not consenting or committing it , no Christian denyeth to be our duty : and his supposition that we separated from the Catholick or the Greek Church , is but his continued fiction . We were not under the Government of the Greeks , and therefore not obeying them is no separation ; and not sinning with them is no separation : we own them as Christians , and we renounce the sins of all the world , and hate our own more than any others , so far as we know them . § . 20. To his saying that It is against Christianity to hold condemned Hereticks to be in the Church . I answered 1. That I detest that condemnation when , even non judices , condemn whole nations without hearing one man , much-lesser all speak for themselves , or any just witness that ever heard them defend a Heresie . His Answer is , that I mistake the way of their Churches condemnation : They do but say whoever holds such errors let him be accursed , or , we excommunicate such as hold them , &c. Answ. There is some hope left then for the Nations that are no subjects of the Pope , unlesse non-subjection be the Heresie . But hath the Pope gone no further than this ? Hath he not put whole Nations under Interdicts ? But he saith those that profess their heresies , or that communicate with them , are esteemed hereticks : and those that profess to disbelieve their heresie , and yet live in communion with them and subjection to them , are Schismaticks . Answ. 1. Here 's new confounding doctrine indeed . If their Canon only condemn indefinitely those that hold a heresie ( e. g. Nestorianism , taking it to be unfit to say God dyed or God was born ) must all be taken for hereticks that communicate with any of these , before the person guilty is convict , and judged ? Must every private man be the judge of hi●… neighbour ? Every servant , of his Master ? Every woman , of her husband ? Every subject , of the King ; and be burnt for a heretick , for communicating with one that was never accused or condemned ? We live then with one another more dangerously than men converse in the time of pestilence . Nay what if the Priest himself admit such to the Communion , must the poor people be burned if they communicate with them in the parish Church : and yet be punished if he do not come to Church and communicate ? 2. Lament , Reader , to think what engines Clergy-tyranny hath made against Christia●… Love , Peace , and Concord , to set the world into a war. If the Council , for want of understanding a point of doubtful words , pronounce such words Heresie , all people for fea●… of being burnt and damned , must fly from all as hereticks that they think are for those condemned words . All our Plowmen and women must be supposed to know that it is heresie e. g. to say that Christ hath but one will , ( though the speaker mean objectively one , or else . One by Union of the divine and humane nature , ) or to say that it was not God that was conceived ▪ and , suffered and dyed , and was passible , ( when he meaneth only formal●…ter , not As God , but on●… ▪ he that is God ; ) and then every family must have an inquisition , and people must f●… from one another , before any judgment . Doth not this give every lad and woman som●… power of the keyes , and every subject a power of judging Kings and Judges . 3. But mark , Reader , how sin condemneth it self , as envy eateth its own flesh , e. g. general Council condemneth Pope Eugenius as an Heretick , ( or Iohn XXIII . or others : ) T●… ▪ whole Church of Rome continued in communion and subjection to this condemned Her●…tick ( as they did with Honorius : ) Therefore by their own sentence the whole Church 〈◊〉 Rome must be taken for Hereticks . And if so , 4. See how they justifie us for separating from them , when they judge us hereticks themselves if we communicate with them . Alas , if a wrangling proud Clergy have but ignorance and pride enough to call Gods servants Berengarians , Wicklefists , Waldenses , Lutherans , Zuinglians , Calvinists , Iconoclasts , Luciferians , Quartodecimani , &c. hereticks , all families and neighbourhoods are presently bound to fly from one another , as if they had the plague , or were enemies . And must subjection come in for heresie ? If you call our King a heretick , must all his subjects be taken for hereti●…ks for having communion and subjection to him . Will the Popes charge●… yea , or real heresie disoblige us from Subjection . And yet will you pretend to be loyal subjects . § . 21. I gave him the proof that he before called for , from Thomas à Iesu , & Paul●… , Veriditus ( Harris of Dublin against Usher ) that their writers vindicate the Greeks from heresie . To which he saith that I could not but know that he meant of the modern Greeks ( as hereticks ) and not of the ancient fathers , of which Bernard , Aquinas & Paul Harris speak . Answ. This Answer hath a very bold face if it do not blush . 1. It was the words of Thomas à sancto Iesu de convers . Gent. a late writer that I recited , to whose testimony as his he giveth not one word of answer : And Thom. in the words cited expressely speaketh of the present Greeks , and it is the very scope of his writing . 2. Thomas cited ex junioribus Azorius . 1. Iustit . Moral . l. 8. c. 20. To which he giveth not a word of answer . 3. Paul Harris saith that when the Greeks had explicated their à Patre per filium , ( viz. in the Council at Florence ) they were found to believe very orthodoxely , and catholickly , ye●… doth this man say that Harris speaks of the ancient Greeks ; expressely contrary both to his dris●… and words . Is there any dealing with these false hereticaters ? It 's well that no Council hath anathematized falshood and calumny for heresies , else we must have no communion with such , that have no better meanes to dispute down christian Love and Concord . Yea what need I more testimony than that Council of Florence it self , which so judged ; and was supposed to heal the breach by explications . Nor is it true that Bernard and Aquinas spake not of the Greeks in their times as owning the same cause that these do now . § . 22. I told him , if Greeks and Latines , will divide the Church , and damn each other , they shall not draw us into their guilt . He saith again that the Church cannot be divided , it is so perfectly One. Answ. If I have not shamed the Saying , let me bear the shame , though we say , that it cannot have any part totally divided from Christ ; for then it were no part ; and therefore none is divided relatively or really from the whole body . But if the parts may not have sinful divisions from each other , secundum quid , Paul told the Corinthians amiss , and the Papists Historians much mistook that talkt of about 40 Schisms at Rome , and of the Popes adherents , when part of the body had one head , and part another , for so long a time , and to such sad effects . § . 23. Next I cited him the express words of their own Florentine Council , professing that the Greeks and Latines were found upon conference to mean the same thing . To which he saith . 1. That it was but a few of them , and that Marcus Ephesus dissented . 2. Tha●… they revolted when they returned home ▪ Answ. 1. See still how they fight against their selves . The seeming concord of this Council ( which did the Pope who was newly condemned and deposed by a great general Council , more service than ever any did them ) is the great pretense of their false boasting that the Greek Church is subject to the Pope : And yet he teaches us truly to say that it was but a few , and that Marcus Eph. dissented , and that they stood not to it when they came home . The known truth is that the Emperor in distress constrained some to dissemble in hope of relief , of which when he failed , the submission was at an end . And the Church never consented to it . 2. But as to the point in hand , it is not the Greeks recovery from an error that the Council mentioneth , but the discovery of their meaning which was found to be Orthodox . And though they yet use not the Romans phrase , they never retracted the sense in which they were found to be orthodox . § . 24. Next , he citing Nilus that the Greeks broke off from the Latines for the [ filioque ] alone , I recited Nilus his title and words at large , professing , that There is no other cause of dissention between the Latin and Greek Churches but that the Pope refuseth to deferre the cognisance and judgment of that which is controverted , to a general Council , but he will sit the sole Master and Iudge of controversie , which is a thing aliene to the Lawes and actions of the Apostles and Fathers . The cause of the disseren●… ( saith he ) is not the sublimity of the point exceeding mans capacity ; for other matters that have divers times troubled the Church , have been of the same kind . This therefore is not the cause of the dissention ; much lesse the Scripture . But who the fault is in ; any one may easily tell that is well in his wits . Nor is it because the Greeks 〈◊〉 claim the Primacy ( N. B. ) He mentioneth that the Pope succeedeth Pet●… only as a Bishop or dained by him , as many other Bishops originally ordained by him do , and that his primacy is n●… governing power , nor given him by Peter , but by Princes and Councils , which he copiou●… proveth . To this he saith . 1. that yet this may stand with the [ ●…ioque ] being the first cause . Answ. 1. But the question was of the sole cause . 2. He denyeth it to be any cause , but only an Occasion , and the Popes usurpat●…on to be the only Cause . 3. Is it not known that the Quarrel and Breach began long before , about the Title of universal Bishop , though the Greeks did not then excommunicate you ? 2. He saith that By this it 's implied that the Greeks agree with them in all things , save the Popes Sovereignty . Answ. Doth it follow that because he saith that this only is the cause of the division of your Churches , therefore there are no other disagreements ? all sober Christians have learnt to forbear excommunications and separations when yet there are many disagreements ; and we never denyed but the Greeks agree more with you than they ought , and specially in striving who shall be great . § . 25. To his repeated words , that all these were not distinct congregations , &c. I told him again , that we are for no congregations distinct from Christians , as such . To which he replyeth again . 1. That no hereticks say they depart from the Church as Christian. Answ. But if they do so , it 's no matter though they do not say so . Whoever departeth from the Church for somewhat Essential to Christianity departeth from it as Christian : but you say your self that all hereticks depart from the Church for somewhat Essential to Christianity : Ergo , &c. Object , Then they are Apostates . Answ. Apostates in the common sense are those that openly renounce Christianity in terms , as such , but those that renounce any essential part are Apostates really , though but secundum quid , and no●… the usuall sense . 2. He intreateth me to name him the first Pope that was the Head of the whole Church in the world . Answ. 1. There never was any such ; for the whole Church never owned him , Abussia , Persia , India , &c , never was governed by him to this day ; and not past a third or fourth part is under him now . 2. But I must name the first that claimed it : had I lived a thousand years at every Popes elbow I would have ventured to conjecture ; but it is an unreasonable motion to make to me that am not 70 years old . I must confess my ignorance , I know not who was the first man that was for the Sacrament in one kind only ( without the cup ; ) nor who first brought in praying in an unknown tongue , or Images in Churches ; nor who first changed the custome of adoring without genuflexion on the Lords dayes . I leave such Taskes to Polydore Virgil de Invent. rerum . Little know I who was the first proud Pope , or Heretical , or Simoniacal , or Infidel Pope ; it satisfies me to know that 1. It was long otherwise , 2 , And that it came in by degrees ( nemo repentè sit pess●…mus . ) 3. And that it should not be so . The rest of his charge against the Greeks , &c. requireth no answer ; instead of doing it , he tells me he has proved there must be governours of the whole Church ; which if he had done , as to any Universal Head , he might have spared all the rest of his labour . § . 26. I thought a while that he had answered all my book , but I find that he slips over that which he had no mind to meddle with , and among others these following words , ( you may judge why . ) P. 115. Many of the Greeks have been of brotherly charity to our Churches of late : Cyril , I need not name to you , whom your party procured murdered for being a Protestant . ( A worthy Patriarch of Constantinople , who sent us by Sir Tho. Roe , our Alexandrian Sept. and whose confession is published . And why is not He as much the Greek Church as Ieremias ? ) Meletius , first Patriarch of Alexandria , and then of Constantinople , was highly offended with the fiction of a submission of the Alexandrian Church to Rome , ( under a counterfeit Patriarch Gabriel's name ) and wrote thus of the Pope in his Letters to Sigismund King of Poland An. 1600. Perspiciat Mojestas tua nos cum majoribus , &c. Your Majesty may see that we with our Ancestors are not ignorant of the Roman Pope ( whom you pray us to acknowledge ) nor of the Patriarch of Constant. and the rest of the Bishops of the Apostolical Stats . There is one universal Head , which is our Lord Iesus Christ. Another there cannot be , unlesse it be a two-headed body , or rather a monster of a body . You may see , most serene King , ( that I may say nothing of that Florentine Council , as a thing worthy of silence ) that we departed not from the opinions and traditions of the East and West which by seven General Councils they consigned , and obsigned to us ; but that they departed , who are daily delighted with novelties . In the same letter he commendeth Cyril , and what can a Protestant say more against the Vice-Christ and your novelties , and the false pretended submission of the Greeks . So much to that which he calleth his First part of his Book . An Answer to W. J's second Part of his Reply . § . 1. IN this which he calls his Second Part there is so much of meer words , or altercation , and of his false interpretation of some particular histories and citations , that should I answer it fully , it would be a great snare to the Reader . 1. To weary him . 2. To lose the matter in controversie in a wood of words . 3. And to suppose us both to strive about circumstances , and so to cast it by , that I shall not lose so much of my time to so ill a purpose . All that I desire of the Reader that would have a particular answer , is , 1. That he remember the answer that is already given to much of it . 2. That he observe that almost all his citations signifie no more , than 1. That both the Romans and other Patriarchs were long striving who should be the greatest , and therefore intermeddling with as many businesses as they could . 2. That the supream Church-power being then placed by consent and by the Emperors in Councils , the five Patriarchs ought to be at these Councils when they were Universal , as to the Empire . 3. That Rome had the first place in order of these Patriarchs or Seats . 4. That the eastern Bishop when opprest by Arrlans and persecutions , did fly for council and countenance to the Roman Emperors who held orthodox , and to the Roman Bishops as the first Patriarchs , and as having interest in the Emperors : he that was one of the greatest , might help the oppressed to some relief , having an orthodox Emperor ; by which means Constantius was constrained , and Athanasius restored ; by the threatning of a war by the western Emperor , and not by the authority of the Pope . And the like aid was oft sought from Alexandria and Antioch . 5 That this man and the rest of them straineth all such words as sound any respect to the Bishop of Rome , any reverence of his place and judgment , any counsel that he giveth to any , any help that any sought of him , as signifying his Government of all the Empire . 6. That he feigneth all such interest or power in the Empire to be a Monarchical Government of all the world † . 7. That he to these ends leadeth men into verbal quarrels about the sense of many passages in history and fathers , where he knoweth that the vulgar cannot judge , nor any that are not well versed in all those books , which most preachers themselves have not sufficient leisure for . 8. That contrary to the notorious evidence of histories , he maintaineth that no Councils were called without the authority of the Roman Bishop , when the Emperors ordinarily called them , by sending to each Patriarch to summon those of his circuit to such a place , and the Bishops of Alexandria and Constant. had more hand in calling them till 700 or 800 if not much longer than the Pope had . 9. If the Reader can trie all our passages here about , by the books themselves ( not taking scraps , but the main drift of Church-history ) and the particular authors , I will desire no more of him than to read them himself ; if not , neither to believe the report of W. I. or me , as certain to him : For how can he know which of us reports an author truly ? but to keep to such evidences of Reason and Scripture as he is capable of judging of . § . 2. When I said that the Emperor ( Theódòsius 2d . ) gave sufficient testimony , and those that adhere to Dioscorus how little in those days they believed the Popes infallibility or sovereignty , when they excommunicated him , ( and the Emperor and ●…ivil Officers bare Dioscorus . ) He doth over and over tell me how I defend Rebels against a Sovereign , and I have laid a Principle emboldening all Rebels to depos●… Sovereigns , or prove that they have no authority over them . Answ. Alas poor Kings and Emperors , who are judged such subjects to the Priests , that he that pleadeth for your power , pleadeth for Rebels against your Sovereign Pope . And that are by these even judged so sheepish , as that by the name of Rebellion charged on your defenders , they look to draw your selves to take them for Rebels , who would make you know that you are Princes and not the subjects of forreigners or your subjects : but yet the instance which I give sheweth the sense of Theodosius and others , be it right or wrong . § . 3. Had it not been that the Printer by three or four Errata's ( as Sixtus fifth , &c. ) made him some work , he had had little to say but what confutes it self . § . 4. But cap. 4. p. 289 he would be thought to speak to the purpose , viz. That out of the Empire the Pope restored Bishops , ( and did he depose any ? ) He was wiser than to name any ; but saith , Such were all those Bishops who about the year 400 in Spain and France , and an . 475 in England , and 595 in Germany , 499 and other Western and Northern Kingdoms , who were taken from under the command of the Roman Emperor , or were never under it , and were restored by the Bishop of Romes authority , &c. Answ. Meer deceit ! he can name none deposed or restored by the Pope , but 1. Such as were in the Empire . 2. Or such as were in the same national Church with Rome , when the Barbarians claimed power both over Rome and the neighbour Countreys , ( as Odoacer and others claimed power to have the choice of a Pope themselves , or that none should be Pope but by their consent . ) 3. Or when the King of any revolted or conquered nation subjected himself , or his subjects voluntarily to the Pope , as they have done since the declining of the Empire . Or 4. when they that had been used in the Empire to the canonical way , in Councils and under Patriarchs , desired when they were conquered to do as they had done , and were permitted . As the Patriarch of Constant. that layeth no claim as jure divino , yet under the Turk claimeth still superiority over all those Churches that were formerly by Councils put under him , what Princes soever they be under , supposing that those Councils authority is still valid , though the Empire be dissolved . 5. Or when the Pope was but a meer Intercessor or Arbitrator , and no Rector . § . 5. But p. 410 &c. he cometh on again with repetitions and additions , to prove that Forreigners were at the four first General Councils . Answ. If he prove that all the Churches in the world made up those Councils , he put hard to prove that indeed they were universal . But I have not yet found that he hath proved it of any one , unless in the fore-excepted cases . * I. His Theophilus Gothiae metropolis , I spake of before . He now saith , Bishop of Gothia in the farthest parts of the North beyond Germany . Answ. But where 's his Proof ? The Country that he talks of was not long after converted to Christianity . He knew not that it was the Getae that were then called Gothes , saith Ferrarius Polouci teste Math. Michovicus . ( Steph. Paul. Diac ) populus Sarmatiae Europeae boreale latus maris Euxini incolentes , prius Getae , teste D. Isidor . li. 9. De quibus Auson . Horum metropolis et urbs GOTHIA archiepis . antequam à Turcis occuparetur . Auson . ep . 3. Hinc possem victos inde referre Gothos : Regio Gothea , nunc Osia , inter Tyram et Borysthenem . This was then in the Empire . § . 6. II. His second is Dominus ( Domnus ) Bosphori , a City of Thracia , Cimmeria , or India as Cosmographus declares the Bishop of Botra , a City of this name is found in Arabia and Sala , a Town also of great Phrygia , the higher Pannonia and Armenia is so called . Answ. This pitiful stuffe may amase the ignorant , Domnus Bospori is the last subscriber . Bosphorus is said in the subscriptions to be Provinciae Bostrensis , in a Roman Province . There be divers straites of the sea called Bosphori , one between Constant and Calcedon ; another the sretum Cimmerium , vel os Moeotidis , called of the Italians stretto de Cassa , and the straits between Taurica Chersonesus in Europe , and Sarmatia in Asia , There is the City Bosphorus , an Archiepiscopal seat , vulgo Vospero . Abest ( inquit Ferrarius ) à Thracio 500 mil. pass . ab ostio Tanais 375 in austrum . This was in the Empire , and he himself nameth it first a City of Thracia , and yet ( the Learned Cosmographer ) proveth that it was out of the Empire : are not these meet men to prove all the Earth to be in the Popes jurisdiction ? § . 7. III. His 3d. is Ioh. Persi lis , of whom enough already , he is said to be of the Province of Persia , which therefore was some skirt of Persia then in the Empire , and a Town in Syria was called Persa , what proof then is here of any one man out of the Empire ? So much for Nice . § . 8. IV. He next tells us of three Bishops of Scythia at the first Council at Constant. Answ. And what of that ? 1. Is it not said , that they were of the Province of Scythia ? And 2. Doth not Euseb. in vit . Const. tell you when Scythia ( that is part of it ) was conquered by Constantine ? And Tomis was known to be in the Empire : It was a City of the Inferiour Mysia , where Ovid was Banished , and by Socrates made the sole Bishoprick of Scythia then . Binnius desireth pardon if the Subscriptions be not true , so little certainty is here pretended . And what Crab saith , I before cited , the 4 or 5 Copies so greatly disagreeing . § . 9. V. Saith W. I. And Etherius Anchialensis : now Anchialos , is a City in Thracia , not far from Apollonia . Answ. 1. There 's no mention in Crab or Binnius of Etherius Anchialensis , but of Aetherius Tersonitanus or Tonsonitanus ; and of Sabastianus Anchialensis . 2. And if there were three from Scythia ( which is not likely , because Socrates said they had none but of Tamis , ) this was one of them . 3. And doth not this Man well prove the Pope and Councils Power to extend beyond the Empire , when he instanceth in such a City of Thracia , where Constantinople it self was ? But whether it was the Bishop of Anchialos , an Arch-Bishoprick on the side of the Euxine Sea , called Kenkis by the Turks ; or else Anchiale , a City of Cilicia , thought by Stephanus to be Tarsus , by Pliny to be near it ( though the first is likeliest ) it 's known that both were in the Empire . § . 10. VI. He next comes to Ephes. 1. Concil . And there we have again Phebaemon Coptorum Episcopus . Answ. Reader , pardon my repeated detection of his repeated Errors . 1. It is in Crab or Binnius , Copti ; which I have told you was a City of the Province of Thebais : And those now called Copti are Egyptians ; yea , Binnius , p. 741. reciting the very words of every Bishop at that Council , saith , Phaebaemon Coptorum Thebaidis Episcopus dixit . And was not Thebais in the Empire ? The Copti's now are supposed so called from the City Coptos . § . 11. VII . His next instance is , Theodulus Esulae , Episc. Anciently a City of Arabia . Answ. There is no such Man as Theodulus in the first subscriptions in Crab or Binnius ; nor no such place as Esula : But Binnius hath Ampela , aliàs Abdela Helusae ; and after , p. 742. Theodulus Elusae : and p. 758. Helusae . In the recitation in Concil . Chalcedon , of the Ephesia●… Subscriptions , it is Theodulus Ticeliae civitatis Ep. so little certainty is here . 2. Esulae is in Italy , and Esula is Isola , a City of Greece on the Borders of Calabria : See Ferrarius , that there were divers Eleusa's within the Empire . § . 12. VIII . His next is , Theodorus Gadarorum , Episcopus : Of that Name is a City in Cava Syria . O happy proof of the Popes Universal Monarchy and Councils ! It is Chadarorum in Binnius : But Gadara or Gadora , is indeed a City of Coelosyria , where Christ gave the Devil power over the Swine : And did not this Learned Man know that the Gadarens were within the Empire ? § . 13. IX . Next he cometh to the Council of Chalcedon , and there begins with Antipater Bostrorum Episc. which he saith , is in Arabia , ut suprá . Answ. Ut suprà , what was said of it before ? He dreamed of Bosphorus somewhere far off before , and now it's Bostrorum . But there is no such Man as I can find mentioned in Crab or Binnius : But there is Constantinus Episcopus Bostrorum , Subscribing for himself and thirteen Bishops under him : The first is the Bishop of Gerassa , a Town near the Lake of Genasaret , under this Arch-Bishop . And doth not this great Disputer know that the Arch-Bishop of Bostra was in the Empire , though it were in Arabia Petraea ? And was the City where the Emperour Philip was Born , and called thence Philippopolis ; and , as Ferrarius saith , was formerly under the Patriarch of Antioch , but after under him of Ierusalem ? Such is the Historical proofs of the Roman Universality . § . 14. X. The next cited , is Olympius Scythopoleos , which is a City of Scythia in Coelosyria . Answ. 1. There is no such Man that I can find in Binnius , who hath the largest Catalogue : There be divers Olympii , but none Scythopoleos . But there is twice Olympius Sozopoleos , which , it 's like , was the Man , as being the nearest Name ; of which Name there was one in Pisidia under Antioch ; and another in Thrace under Adrianople . 2. * But the Bishop of Scythopolis may be found in some Councils : And where is that ? In Palestine by the Lake Genasareth , but forty seven Miles from Ierusalem , and sixteen from Samaria , an Arch-Bishops Seat , under the Patriarch of Ierusalem . Here is another of his Proofs . § . 15. XI . The next is , Eustathius Gentis Saracenorum , of Saraca : There is a City so called in Arabia faelix . Answ. And what then ? Must the word [ Gen●…s Sarra●…orum ] prove that he was out of the Empire , when part of Arabia † was in it ? But saith Perrarius , Horuin ●…bs in consilio Gal●… membratur ; sed in Palestina idque ratione vio●…nitatis , ob quam idem ●…pens diversis regionibus confinibus attribui consuevit . And was Palestine without the Empire ? You see I cite none to shame your falshood , but your own Writers . § . 16. XII . The next is , Constantinus Episcopus Bostrorum in Arabia ‖ faelix . Answ. Memoria faelix was greatly wanting to him , to forget so suddenly that he had just before cited a false named Bishop of the same City ; and now he giveth us the true one as another Man : Sure a Papist doth not believe that one City had two Bishops at that Council . I shewed you before that Bostra ¶ was in the Empire . § . 17. XIII . Yet there is one more , and that is , Subscribit quidam pro Giaco Gerassae Episcopo . Gerafa is a City of Coelosyria . Answ. I mentioned him before I noted your instance . And is he therefore out of the Empire because in Coelosyria ? An excellent collection . I told you out of Ferrarius , that it is by the Lake of Gennasareth , under this Arch-Bishop of Bostra : And surely that was as undoubtedly in the Empire , as Ierusalem was . § . 18. And now I have done with all his strange proofs , that Extraimperial Bishops were at the four first General Councils ( or any long after ) and consequently that the Pope is the Monarchical Bishop of all the World , and not a National Primate only . And if a Man can tell me where to find a cause so betrayed by the shameful failing of so great a Hector , I am yet to learn it . And this is the Man that before promised us a peculiar Treatise to prove this very thing ; but instead of it , was fain shamefully to put us off with thirteen Names , without one proof , but gross Mistakes . § . 19. But I will say more for him than he hath said for himself : When I read an odd Epistle in Crab and Binnius of the Nestorians at the Ephesine Council to Callimones the King , as commanding them to meet at Ephesus , and as a very Christian Prince : I wondred who it was , having never read of any such King of Persia ; and began to suspect that the King of Persia might send some Ioh. Persidis also thither . But I found neither Name , nor Character , nor History , nor the Cities of the Oriental Bishops named encouraged me to any such thoughts . But at last Binnius himself , and his Author helpt me out of my Ignorance ; saying , per Callimorem Persidis Regem * Theodosium designant . Appellant autem eum ob id hoc nomint , quod Persus debellassit , religionemque ibidem per tyrannidem extinctam , restituisset . And having thus done the main business , I think it needless to add to what I said before to his citations of contests in the Empire . § . 20. Only about this one Council of Ephesus , which he mentioneth ; I desire the Reader to note a few particulars . 1. That it is expresly said to be called by the Emperour Theodosius II. 2. That the Emperour Governed it , both by sending Officers to oversee them there , and by determining of the Effects . 3. That no Patriarch had so little to do in it as the Bishop of Rome . 4. That Cyril presided as Rome's Vicar , is an untrue pretence . 5. The Synod as such ruled the greatest Patriarchs , though Cyil's Interest , vehemency , and copious Speech did prevail . In the beginning in Crab , p. 587. you shall find such a Mandate as this : to Philip the Presbyter Pope , Coelestines Vicar ( and therefore Cyril was not his Vicar ) and to Arcadius , Iuvenal , Flavian , and other Bishops their Legates , to Constantin●…le . Ante omnia sciat Sanctitas vestra quod cum Johanne Antiocheno & cum Apostarum Consilio communionem nullo modo habere debeatis ( and after more Instructions ) Permittimus vestrae Sanctitati his factis polliceri quidem ipsis communionem , &c. If the Bishop of Rome had but given such Mandates and Permissions to them , as they did to his Vicar and others , it would have been taken for a proof of his Government over them . 5. That it was to the Emperour that they sent Legates , and not to Rome , and that for the effectual Judgment which Party should prevail : The Orientals say , in their first Petition , Nostrae preces sunt 〈◊〉 Iudicium 〈◊〉 pitate accipiamus : And both sides sollicited him long hereto ; but he kept both at Chalcedon , and would not let them so much as come long into the City , to avoid their contentions . 6. That what was done at last , as to decision and depositions , was done by the Emperour : He commanded the Deposition of the Leaders of both Parties at first , thinking that the way to Peace , viz. Nestorius , Cyril , and Memnon . In the second Petition of the Orientals , it 's said , Advenit ru●…us magnificentissimus magister Johannes , qui tunc comes omnium largitionum , significantes quod à vestra majestate trium depositiones decretae sunt , tollend aque è medio sub●…ta offendicula , solamque fidem in Nice●… expositum à Sanctis & beatis patribus ab omnibus confirmandam . And accordingly Iohan. Comes did put them all out , till the Emperours mind changed upon second thoughts , and rejected Nestorius alone . 7. That these Oriental Bishops were all his Subjects as they oft profess ; as in their third Petition in ●…rab , pag. 592. Non illorum tantum sed & noster Rex ●…s : Non enim parva porti●… Regni tui est Oriens in qua semper recta sides resulsit , & cum hâc etiam alia Provinciae & Dioceses è quibus Congregati fuimus . 8. This Iohan. Comes , in his Letters to the Emperour , giveth such an Account of the Fury and Contentiousness of some of the Bishops , especially of Cyrils Orthodox-party , and of their fierceness and fighting one with another , as should grieve the heart of a Christian to read it . And had not he and Candidianus kept the Peace , and Ruled them ( more than the Pope did ) the two Councils ( for two they were ) might have tryed who should prevail by Blood Cyril's Council Accused Nestorius for keeping Souldiers about him , and not Appearing , Iohn's Council ( which was for Nestorius ) Accuse the Egyptian ( meaning Cyril ) for Heresie , Turbulency , setting the World together by the Ears , raising Seditions in the Church , and expending that Money which was the Poors in maintaining Souldiers to strengthen them , Petit. 3. Crab. p. 592. § . 21. And that the Pope Governed not out of the Empire , nor any of the Patriarchs or Christian Prince then , is intimated in these words of the Orientals first Petition ; having praised him for propagating Religion in Persia ( by the Sword ) You may not send two Religions into Persia , O King ; and while we are at Discord among our selves , our matters will not seem great ( or be much esteemed ) there being none among them to be the Iudges ( or to Judge ) nor will any Communicate in two sorts of words and Sacraments : So that the Persians were not Subject to the Imperial Church Judicatories , when it 's said , There is none among them to Iudge ( or determine ) which of the two Faiths is right . § . 22. And whereas he layeth so much on the Council of Chalcedons applauding Pope Leo's Letter , it is notorious that in all these Councils that were militating party against party , every side magnified them that were for them , and strengthened them ; ( as at Ephesus one cryeth up Cyril , and the other Iohn , &c. ) Yet even those Bishops are sain to Apologize for Receiving his Letter ; it being Objected , that his Epistle was an Innovation ; saying , Let them not Accuse to us the Epistle of the Admirable Prelate of the City of Rome , as an Offence of Innovation ; but if it be not agreeable to the Holy Scriptures , let them Reprove ( or confute ) it : If it be not the same with the Iudgment of the former Fathers , if it contain not an Accusation of the Impious ; if it defend not the Nicene Faith , &c. So that they rested not on the Authority of the Author , but the Truth of the Matter , which was to be exposed to Tryal . § . 23. Note also , That whereas the great Proof of the Papal Monarchy , is , that Rome is called oft , Caput Mundi , & omnium Ecclesiarum , & sedes Petri : That Nazianzene oft calleth Constantinople , Caput totius mundi ; and it 's usual for Councils to call Ierusalem , Mater omnium Ecclesiarum ; as Constant. Consil. 2. Bin. p. 529. Aliarum omnium Mater . And Antioch is ordinarily called , Sedes Petri , and the City Theopolis . Theodoret saith , That Iohn , chosen Bishop of Antioch , Ad primatum Apostolicum suffragiis delectus fuit . Hist. l. 3. c. 17. § . 24. Note , That whereas W. I. maketh himself Ignorant , that ever any Council was called without the Pope ; and they pretend that his Vicars presided in them , almost all the General Councils for six or seven hundred Years , are Witnesses against them : And of the first General Council at Const. Binnius Notes say ( p. 515. ) Damas●…m Pontificem neque per se , neque per suos Legatos eidem praefuisse fatemur . § . 25. But there is yet another part of our work behind : W. I. will next prove , That the Fathers of those General Councils , in all their Decrees , Constitutions , and Canons , intended to Oblige all Christians through the whole World , and thereby demonstrated themselves to have Iurisdiction of the whole Church ; and never so much as insinuated , that their Authority was limited within the Precincts of the Empire . Answ. 1. I have proved the contrary at large already . 2. They might well commend their Decrees or Judgments to all Christians , on two accounts . 1. For Concord sake ; it being desirable that all Christians should , as much as may be , be of one mind and way . 2. Ratione rei decret●… : And so all Churches are bound to receive the same Truth that one is bound to , If the Bishop of the poorest City Excommunicate a Man justly for Heresie , all the Bishops in the World that know it , are bound to deny Communion to that Man ; ( and so Cyprian commended the Bishop of Rome for denying Communion to Felicissimus ; ) partly because they are bound to keep Concord with all Christians , and Order ; and partly , because they are bound to avoid Hereticks : And yet such a Bishop is not Governour of all other Bishops ; ( nor Cyprian ▪ of the Bishop of Rome . ) But let us hear your Proofs . § . 26. I. Thus ( saith W. I. ) the Council of Ephesus saith , Their Decrees were for the good of the whole world . Answ. I do not mean to search so large a Volumn to find where , seeing you tell me not where . When as he is unworthy to be Disputed with that knoweth not , how commonly then the Roman Empire was called Totus Orbis ; and even the Scripture saith , That all the World was Taxed by Augustus . How oft doth Nazianzene complain , that the Bishops and Councils had distracted and divided the whole World ? And also , that all that is for the good of the whole World , is not an Act of Government of the whole World ; e. g. The Works of Augustine , Chrysostome , &c. § . 27. II. Saith he , Thus the Council of Chalcedon , Act. 7. declareth the Church of Antioch to have under its Government Arabia . Answ. But do you think that no part of Arabia was in the Empire ? Look but in the Maps of the Empire , if you have no other notice . And you will be put hard to it , to prove that they meant the rest of Arabia . § . 28. III. And act . 16. c. 28. ( saith he ) That the Bishop of Const. should have under him certain Churches in Barbarous Nations , which you must prove to have been under the Empire . Answ. 1. I thought you must have proved , that it was out of the Empire ; who undertook to prove it as you affirm it ? 2. But seeing Papists lay Mens Salvation upon such skill in History , Cosmography , and Chronology , which this great Disputer had so little of himself , we must study it better for the time come : And I did fully prove to you before , that the Sauromat●… , many of the Scythians and Goths were conquered , and in the Empire ; and Barbarians were in the Empire . And by the way Note , 1. That this ●…uncil of Chalcedon , even writing to Leo Bishop of Rome , tell him , That They were called by the Grace of God and Sanction of the most Pious Emperours , not mentioning any call of Leo's . 2. That the Emperour Martian , in his Decree against Hereticks , and for this Council , saith , All Men must believe as Athanasius , Theophylus , and Cyril believed ( not naming the Bishop of Rome ; ) and that Cyril , Praefuit Concilio Ephesino , not saying that the Bishop of Rome did it , or Cyril , as his Vicar : And that the Council-Bishops , contemptuously against the Romans , cryed out , They that gain-say , let them walk to Rome ; and stood to their last Canon against the Popes dissent . § . 29. IV. Next he saith , Nicephorus , l. 5. c. 16. saith , That Leo the Emperour Wrote to the Bishops of all Provinces together ( Circularibus per Orbem literis ad Ecclesias missis , Leo haec sic ad omnes Episcopos misit ) which he accounts were above a thousand , to have them subscribe to the Council of Chalcedon . Answ. Some Men perceive not when they consute themselves . 1. I tell you , Totus Orbis was a common Title of the Empire . 2. Had Leo any power out of the Empire ? His commands shew that they were his Subjects that he wrote to . 3. Were any called , or wrote to under the Name of Provinces , but the Roman Provinces ? 4. Do you think that there were not more than a thousand Bishops in the Empire ? Yea , many thousands ( if poor Ireland had as many hundred as Ninius speaks of . ) 5. But remember hence , that if all Bishops were written to , then the Bishop of Rome was written to , to Subscribe the 28 Canon of the Council of Chalcedon ; which he refused ▪ ( as Papists say . ) But indeed the Epistle that Niceph. there mentioneth , c. 16. was but to enquire of all the Bishops , whether they stood to the Council of Chalcedon or no , and what Bishop of Alexandria they were for , to save the calling of a new Council ; and it is plain ▪ he wrote only to his Subjects . § . 30. V. Next he saith , The Bishops of the second Armenia , which seem to have been out of the Empire , wrote an Answer ; and Adelphus , Bishop of Arabia , Subscribes , among ▪ the rest , to this Epistle . Answ. 1. He tells me ●…ot where to find any of this . In Nicephorus , there I find it not ▪ 2. But if he know not that part of both the Armenias were Roman Provinces , he may see it in the Titles of the Nicene Council , and in the Maps and Histories of the Empire : And of Arabia I spake before . § . 31. VI. He saith , The Bishop of the second Messia , which you must prove to have been then under the Empire , writ that the Council of Nice delivered the Faith , toti terrarum Orbi , and style the Bishop of Rome the Head of Bishops , and that the Council of Chalcedon was gathered by Pope Leo's Command . Answ. Here is neither Matter nor Authority worthy an Answer . 1. He citeth no Author for what he saith . 2. Whether he meaneth Messua , or Messia , or Messina , they were all in the Empire : But what he meaneth I know not . Since I find in his Errat . [ Messia r. Toti ] But where , or what Toti meaneth , my Cosmographers tell me not : If it be Tottaium that he meaneth , it was a City of Bithynia under the Arch-Bishop of Nice . But it seems he durst not say it was in the Empire , but instead of proving it in , I must prove it out , without knowing Place or Author . 2. He that yet understandeth not the Romans Terrarum Orbem , and he that reading History , can believe that Pope Leo called the Council at Chalcedon , is not to be convinced by me , if he maintain that the Turks called it . He tells us ( out of no cited Author ) of an Epistle subscribed by Dita , Bishop of Odyss●… in Scythia , which I have nothing to do with , till I know the Epistle : But he should have known that Odyssus is a City of Mysia , near the Euxine Sea , within the Empire . § . 32. VII . His last Instance is considerable , viz. Of the Bishops of Spain , France , and Germany . To which I say , 1. That none but Rome much medled in the Empire after their Conquest : Nor Rome much in comparison of Alexandria , Constantinople , and Antioch . 2. I easily confess , that those Churches within the Empire had been settled in their several powers by the Councils at Nice and Const. did plead the same Canonical Settlement to keep their possession when they were conquered . And that e. g. Rome under Theodorick and other Arrians , was willing to keep their Relation to the Orthodox Churches of the Empire , for their strength : And Neighbours that were under Heathens or Arrians , were glad of a little countenance from Councils of great Bishops in the Empire ( as Basil and the Easternes under Valens , were from the West , without Subjection to the Pope . ) § . 33. Pag. 116. After some trifling Quibbles , he Answereth my Charge , That their Church is not one , but two ; having at times two Heads : The Pope to some , and a Council to others . To this he saith , 1. That this belongs to them that take Councils to be above the Pope , and not to him , who is of a contrary Opinion . Answ. It is to your Party in general : I did not say , that W. I. was two Churches ; but that those called Papists are so . 2. He saith , That they also can answer me with a wet finger ; for the Pope is in the Council , and not excluded . Answ. Such wet-fingerd Answers serve to deceive the Ignorant . The Question is not of the Popes Natural Person , but of his Political : Two summa potestates make two Polities . The Pope in a General Council is not the summae potestas , if a Council be above him , and may Judge and Depose him . To be a Member of a Council that hath the Sovereignty , is not to have the Sovereignty : Did you not know this ? § . 34. I urged him as his proper work , to answer these Questions : Whether the Church , of which the Subjects of the Pope are Members , hath been Visible ever since Christ's days on Earth ? And therein , 1. Whether the Papacy , that is , their Universal Papal Government over ▪ all the Earth , hath so long continued ? 2. Whether all the Catholick Church did still submit to it ? 3. Whether those that did submit to it , took it to be necessary to the Being of the Church , and Mens Salvation , or only to the more Orderly and Better being . But he would not be driven to touch at any of these , or prove the perpetual Visibility of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over my last 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over many of his Im●… , 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 that I refer him but to the p●…sing of the Histories which 〈◊〉 co●…th , with the General Answers which I have before given : And he will find , 1. That the Pope was but a National Primate . 2. And that by Humane Institution . 3. And under a General Council . 4. Striving upon every Advantage to be greater . 5. Under the power of Princes . 6. And when he lost his power over all the other four Patriarchs , the West falling from the Empire , he sought to bring the Western Princes under him , and claimed a Government over all the World. The Third Part : A Defence of my Arguments to prove , That the Church of which the Protestants are members , hath been visible ever since the daies of Christ on Earth . § . 1. I Began with an Explication of the termes , but this Disputer saith , that this is of no concern to his Argument , nor much to my answer . Answ. It pleaseth not those that are all darkness ; such Explications as you gave me are indeed of little Use. 1. He saith , I make Believers and true Christians Synonyma's , whereas one may be a Believer as ( an unbaptized Catechumene , but is not a Christian till baptized . Answ. As a Pope once told one , how little wit in a place of power would serve to govern the world ; so I see by this man , How little Reason will serve to set up a Iesuite for an ●…nanswerable disputant among the ignorant . The word [ Christian ] as well as [ Believer ] signifieth , 1. A heart-consenter to the Baptismal Covenant . 2. Or a Professor of that consent . And 1. Regularly by Baptism . 2. Or without it when it cannot be ●…ad . 1. As soon as a man Believeth and Consenteth , he is a Christian before God. 2. As soon as he solemnly professeth it , he is an incompleat Christian before men . 3. As soon as he professeth it in Baptism he is orderly and regularly a Christian before the Church . Even as two secretly ma●…rying , are marryed before God ; and when they publish their mutual Consent and Covenant ( as suppose it were where a priest is not to be had ) they are irregularly married before men , but solemn Matrimony maketh it a Legal Marriage in fore . And this distinction holds of the word [ Beleiver ] as well as of [ Christian ] . A Beleiver , a Disciple , and a Christian were Synonyma's before Popery was born . § . 2. Next he saith that my words [ Subject to Christ their Head ] are equivocal . Because Subject may signifie but [ inferior ] and Head but a principal member . Answ. What is not equivocal to a Jesuite ? 1. Did I not put this first The Church is the Kingdom of Iesus Christ : 2. When I said It is the whole company of Believers subject to Christ their head , are not the words significative enough of a governing Head ? And did I not adde , the constitutive parts are Christ and Christians , as the pars imperans & subdita : are there more notifying words in use ? If there are , tell'them me if you can : or , was not this a cavil that had more of Will and Interest , than of Conscience ? § . 3. I said Protestants are Christians protesting against and disallowing Popery . To this he cavils 1. That the name had another original . 2. That the Greeks , Arrians , Antitrinitarians , Socinians , Hussites , Anabaptists , Familists , Millenaries , Quakers , are not Protestants . Answ. 1. Did I undertake to tell you the first Rise of the name , or only to tell whom I mean in my dispute . If I had , the German protestation immediately against a particular . Edict , was principally and finally against Popery , and in that sence is the name continued . But it is not the Name but the Church and Religion that I dispute of . You know that the Name Reformed Catholick Christians pleaseth us better than the Name of Protestants . Were not Christians after they were first called so at Antioch , of the same Religion as before , when they were called but Disciples and Believers , yea and Nazarens by their adversaries ? 2. Who would have thought that you had taken Arrians , Antitrinitarians , Socinians , or any that deny an Essential part of Christianity , for true Christians ? Did you not here oft profess the contrary , and those that are no Christians are not in my definition ; those that are Christians , as Greeks , Millenaries , and Hussites and most Anabaptists with us , are Protestants , but not meer Protestants : they have somewh●…t more and worse , which giveth them another name ? but if Christians protesting against Popery , they are of the same Church universal , as we are . § . 4. When I call Popery the Leprosie of some Christians , he must know whether all the Church was not Leprous then . 2. And whether men could with a safe Conscience have Communion with any . Answ. 1. He that saith he hath no sin is alyar , saith St. Iohn . All Christians , and therefore all Churches are defiled with sin . 2. All are not equally defiled , I have told you that the Papists are not the third part of the Christian world , and for many hundred years there were none . 3. We must not separate from all Churches that have sin , but we must not willfully sin for their Communion , and we must joyn locally with the best we can , and in spirit joyn with all , as far as they joyn with Christ ; is not this plain and sufficient to your cavills ? § . 5. He saith p. 423. that our external profession in the particulars of our Belief , or rather Disbelief against the Roman Church , sheweth our general profession of Christianity to be false , as the Arrian was . Answ. What is easier than to say so . But where 's your proof ? § . 6. After a repetition of his talk against Christ as no visible Head , he cavills at the form of my first Argument ; which was this : The body of Christians on Earth subjected to Christ their Head , hath been ( in it's parts ) visible ever since the dayes of Christ on Earth . But the body of Christians on Earth subjected to Christ their Head is the Church , of which the Protestants are members . Therefore the Church of which the Protestants are members hath been visible ever since th●… daies of Christ on Earth . And first he saith that it 's out of form , because it hath never an universal proposition . Answ. This is the man that would not dispute but in meer Syllogism , what need I an universal proposition ? If you be to prove that Cephas was Peter , or Peter was an Apostle of the first place , must you have an universal proposition ? What Universal must there be above The Body of Christians , &c. 2. He saith that the word [ Those ] Form requireth , should have been [ All those ] when as there is never a [ Those ] at all in the argument . Is not this an accurate reformer of Syllogisms ; that amendeth termes that were not written , and talketh like a dreamer of he knoweth not what ? but what is the [ All ] that the man would have had ? is it [ all those bodies of Christians ] when we are all agreed that Christ hath but one political body ? if I had been to prove that the world that Protestants are parts of , hath been visible since Adam ; or that the God the Protestants worship is Almighty , must I have said , [ All those worlds and all those Gods ? ] Nay had I said but [ whatsoever worlds ] or [ whatsoever God ] it had sounded ill among men that are agreed that there is but one ; sure an expository medium that was but notius was enough . Next he saith that I put more in the medium of the major , than in the medium of the minor , and so it hath four terms . Answ. Wonderful ! This is the man that disputed with our two great Logicians and publick professors of Cambridge , Bishop Gunning , and Bishop Peirson , and as a triumpher printed the dispute , and challenged men in London to Syllogistical combats . And now see how he talketh ? 1. He calls that my medium that is no medium at all , but the Praedicate . 2. He saith it is not in my Minor , where that Praedicate was not , nor ought to be but another . 3. He takes an expository parenthesis , which is no part of the proposition , for an addition that maketh ●…our termes : When I prove the Church visible , to prevent his cavils I put in a parenthesis , as a margin , ( in it's parts ) because the whole world or Church is not seen by any mortal man , no not by the Pope that pretends to rule it all , and this no man controverteth . If he had said that there is less in the conclusion than in the premises , he had spoken sence , though impertinet ; while there is as much as was in the question . 2 , He saith , I make the praedicate of the minor the subject of the conclusion , and then saith [ This is a hopeful beginning . ] Answ. O rare triumphant disputer , why should I not make the praedicate of the Minor the subject of the conclusion ? What Law or Reason is against it , when i●… is the subject of the question ? My Argument is a re definitâ ad rem denominatam , as questioned : the definition or res quà definita is my medium . How ridiculo●…s hath this Aristarchus made himself in his Logick ? would not this disputing have been very edifying to such as the Lady that he and I were once to deal with , when he would have bargained that never a word should be spoken by me , nor written , but in a Syllogism ? as bad as Popery is , I hope it hath some men of more ingenuity and honesty , then wilfully to delude the ignorant , at these low and sordid rates . § . 7. But from his play he turneth in earnest to deny my Major , and saith [ that Protestants are no parts of that Church on Earth of which Christ is Head. And yet many of their Doctors say , that they that have no explicite belief that Iesus is the Christ , but believe only a God , the rewarder of works are members of the Church ; but no Christians are , save Papists . Just the Donatists , and worse than the Quakers and Anabaptists . My Argument [ Those that profess the true Christian Religion in all it's Essentials , are members of that Church which is the Body of Christians on Earth , subjected to Christ the Head. ] But Protestants profess , &c. Here 1. he wanteth form also ; [ All ] is wanting : as if a definition , were not Universal or equipollent ? But if [ All ] be in , he denyeth it , because they may destroy the faith by an Error . Answ. He that so erreth as to deny any one Essential part , doth not truly profess to hold that Essential part , and so not the Essence ; as he that denyeth Christ to be God or Man , and yet will say in general that he is the Messiah , his meaning is that one that is not God , or not Man is the Messiah ▪ which is not a profession of all Essential to Christianity ; but if he truly profess all that is Essential , and ignorantly think some error Consistent with those Essentials , which by consequence crosseth some of them , and would abhorr that error if he knew it inconsistent , this man is still a Christian , or else it 's doubt whether there be one in the world ; if those Doctors say true , that say , that Theology is so harmonious a frame , that the least moral Error doth by consequence cross and subvert fundamental truthes : Certainly abundance of such do so , as are collected by Montaltus and Mr. Clarkson out of your Jesuites and school Doctors , and as you find in one another . But he bids me prove my Major , mark , Reader , what I am put to prove ; 1. Either that Profession denominateth [ a professor ] ( it being only Christians as visible by profession in question ) 2. Or that all the Essential parts do constitute the Essence . And shall I obey a trifler so farre as to trouble you with more Syllogismes for this . § . 8. But he denyeth the Minor , and saith , that Protestants profess not the true Christian Religion in all it's Essentials . I proved it thus , Those that profess so much as God hath promised Salvation upon in the Covenant of Grace , do profess so much as God hath , &c. Here the trifler wants [ all ] again , and then denyeth the ) Minor. I proved the Minor by several arguments . 1. All that prosesse faith in God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , our Creator , Redeemer , and Sanctifyer ; and Love to Him , and Absolute obedience to all his Laws , of Nature and Holy Scriptures , with willingness and diligence to know the true meaning of all these Lawes as farre as they are able , and with Repentance for all known sins ; do profess so much as God hath promised Salvation upon , ( which I proved by many texts of Scripture ) But so do the Protestants , &c. Here the trifler wants form again , The Covenant of Grace was left out , when I cited the Covenant of Grace it self , viz , Io●… . 3. 16. 17. Mark 16 , 16. Heb. 5. 9. Rom. 8. 28. 1. Act. 26. 18. And after all this what is it that he denyeth ? Why this ; that the Protestants have willingness , and diligence to know the true meaning of all the Law of Nature and Scripture . Answ. This is , the man of form , that slily puts in [ Having willingness ] instead of professing it . When he saw and knew that it was not what saith men have ( which God only knoweth ) but what they [ pro●…ess ] that we dispute of . And whether we profess such willingness to understand , if our words , our oaths , and all our books and confessions published to the world will not prove it , let this mans word go for a disproof ; we come now to the Transubstantiation reasoning , where all men Eyes , and Eares , are to be denyed . § . 9. But he addeth a reason , because else they would take the expositions of the universal Church , and not follow novel int●…pretations and private judgements . Answ. This Cant must delude the ignorant that never read the history of the Church , nor know the present State of the World. 1. Do not we profess to preferre that which is most ancient , before that which is novel ? But these men must have us . e. g. believe that the cup may be left out of the Sacrament of Eucharist , which a Sect lately and sacrilegiously introduced , or else we have a novel and private interpretation of the Sacrament ; when the most brazen faced of them cannot deny , that their own way herein is novel , and , the contrary as old as Christs institution ; and that they are singular , as differing from the farre greatest part of Christians upon Earth . The same I might say of most other of our differences . 2. When did the Universal Church write a Commentary on the Bible ? where shall we find their exposition of it ? How little of the Bible have General Councils expounded ? if you mean not them what mean you ? sure all your Laity have not expounded it , nor all your Clergy ; yea their Commentaries , yea and Translations fight with one another ! where is your Universal Commentary : if you had such a work ; will your talk make us ignorant that Papists are not a third part of the Christian world ? but if it be Councils you mean , which of them is it that we must believe , and why ? That at Constance , and Basil , and Pisa , or that at Florence , or the Later●…ne that de fide contradict them ? The first and second at Ephesus , or that of Calcedon which contradicteth the first indeed , and the second professedly ? The 28th . Canon of Calcedon , or the Popes that abhor it : The General Councils at Ariminum , Syrmium , &c. when the world was said to groan to find it self turned Arrian : should we at the 2d . Council of Ephesus have followed the greater number , when there was not one refuser of Eutychianism save the Popes Legates , and Binnius saith that sola navicula Petri , only Peters Ship escaped drowning : did Rome follow the most , when Melch. Canus tells us , that most of the Churches and the Armes of Emperors have fought against the Roman privileges ? Is it a convincing way to have such a Pope as Eugenius ▪ 4th . at the same time to differ from the greater part of the Christian world , and also be damned by his own Church or General Council ; and to say , you do not receive all that 's necessary to Salvation , nor are willing to know the truth because you take not the expositions of the Universal Church . When you have blinded us so far as to take a domineering sect that liveth not by the Word , but by the Sword and Blood , to be the Universal Church , and all your Decretals to be the Churches ▪ expositions of Scripture , and all the Scripture and Fathers that are against you to be novelties , and your many novelties to be all the ancient truth ( such as Pet. Moulin de novitate Papismi hath laid open ) by that time we may think that the Church ▪ wanteth an Essential Art●…ole of Christianity , which taketh not all the Popes expositions of Scripture . But seeing this is the great damning Charge against the Protestants faith , I pray you tell us next , 1. Did all the Christian Church want an Essential part of their Christianity , in all those Ages before the Universal Church gave them any expositions of the Scripture ? what exposition had they besides each Churches Pastor's for the first 300 years . And what exposition did the Council of Nice make , save about the deity of Christ ( and Easter day or such things that indeed were deliver'd not as expositions of Scripture but Traditions OF rules of order ) ? And what exposition made any of the old General Councils , save about the Natures , and Person , and Wills of Christ , and Church policie , which Suarez , de legi●… . saith , God made no Law for ) where are their Commentaries ? 3. Where shall we find any Commentary that the Fathers agreed in , though the Trent-Oath is that you will not exp●…nd the Scripture but according to the Fathers consent . Your writers tell us that most whose works be come to us , for the first 300 years ▪ were Millenaries , Dionys. Petavius hath gathered the words of Arrian doctrine from most of them ( lib. de Trinit . ) till after the Council of Nice ; yea that the chief of the Anti-Arrians , even Athanassus himself . † was for three Gods , telling us that as Peter , Paul , and Iohn were three names , but one in Essence , that is in Specie , so is the Father , Son and Holy Ghost : when your Doctors tell us , that Iustin , Clem. Alexander , Dionysius Alexand. Talianus , Tertullian , Cyprian , Origen , Eysebius , and I know not how many more taught Heresie : and Chrysostom , Basil , and many others that we hoped had been Christians , are noted as fautors of Origen : and even many of the Martyrs were Hereticks , when through the reign of Theodosius , Senior ; Arcadius and Honorius , Theodosius , Junior ; Valentinian , ( to say nothing of Constantius and Valens , &c. of the Arrians ) yea and of Marcian , Leo , Zeno , Anastaslus , Iustine , almost all the Churches of the Empire continued charging each others with Heresie : and Councils charging and condemning Councils ; Bishops deposing , and cursing Bishops ; and Monks as their Souldiers fighting it out to blood ; when the obeying or cursing the Council of Calcedon divided the Bishops for many Princes reigns : and when one part called the other Nestorians , and the other called them Eutychians , almost every where , and when after that the Monothelites cause was in many Emperors Reign uppermost one while , and down another ; and navicula Petri that alone scaped before , was thus drowned by Honorius ( if Councils belie him not and Popes ) with the rest . When the very same Bishops ( as at Ephesus and Calcedon ) went one way in one Council and another way in the next , and subscribed to one Edict e. g. of Basiliscus , and quickly to the contrary of another , and cryed 〈◊〉 , we did it through fear . How should we then know by Fathers , Bishops and Councils , what was their concordant Commentary of the Scripture ? 4. I ask you , what exposition of the Universal Church is it that we profess to differ from for our novelties ; name them if you can . Either by the Universal Church , you mean properly [ all Christians ] or [ most ] . If All , alas , when and where shall we find their agreement in any more than we hold with them ? If most , do we not know that the most ( two parts to one ) are against the Popes Sovereignty ; which is Essential to your Church ? Do not the Greeks once a year excommunicate or curse you ? To tell us now That above two parts of the Christian world are none of the Church , because they differ from the Universal Church , and that the third part is that Universal , which he that believeth not is no Christian , are words that deserve indignation and not belief , and without the medium of Swords and Flames , and tormenting inquisitions on one side , and great Bishopricks and Abbies , Wealth , Ease and Domination on the other , had long ago been scorned out of the Christian world . § . 10. But he also denyeth that we believe with a saving divine faith any of the said mysteries , and that our Profession general and particular affirmeth it . Answ. It 's like the Devil the Accuser of the brethren will deny it too : of our Hearts we will not enter a dispute : of our Professions , let our books be witnesses : Reader , canst thou believe that we profess not to believe any Christian verity with a Divine faith ? yea ; but the man meaneth that it is not a Divine faith if it be not from the beleif of the Pope and his Party . And how then shall we believe the Popes own authority ? § . 11. II. My ad . Argument to prove that we hold all the Essentials of Christianity , was [ Those that profess as much ( and much more ) of the Christian Faith and Religion as the Catechumens were ordinarily taught in the ancient Churches , and the Competentes at Baptisme did profess , do profess the true Christian Religion in all it's Essentials : but so do the Protestants , &c. To this he calls for Form again , as if here were no Universal , and then denyeth the Major , but his words shew that indeed it is the Minor : Because the Catechumens professed to believe implicitly all that was taught as matter of Faith by the Catholick Church , in that Article , I believe the Holy Church ; which the Protestants do not . Answ. An unproved fiction on both parts . 1. Shew us in Fathers , Councils , or any true Church-Records ; that Catechumens were then used to make any other exposition of those words than we do . Did they ever profess that a Pope or a General Council cannot erre de fide ? did they not call many of those Councils General , though violent and erroneous which they cursed ? The great doubt then was , which party was the true Church ; and Christians then judged not of Faith by the Church-men , but of the Church by the Faith ▪ else they had not so oft rejected and Hereticated many Popes , Patriarches , and the farre greater part of the Bishops , as they did . 2. And Protestants deny no article which ab omnibus , ubique et semper , as Lerinens . speaks , was accounted necessary to ●…ation : yea it is one reason why they cannot be Papists , because most of the Catholick Church are against the Papacy , and all were against it or without it for many hundred Years after Christ. Let the Reader peruse Cyril , Hieros . Catech. August . and all others , that give us an account of the Churches Catechism , and see whether he can find in it , I believe that the Bishop of Rome is made by Christ the Governour of all the World , and is Infallible in himself , or with his Council ; and that we must believe all that they say is the Word of God , because they say it , or else we cannot be saved . But it is an easie way to become the Lords of all the World , if they can perswade all Men to believe that none but their Subjects can be saved . 3. And what an useless thing to they make Gods Word , that they may set up their own Expositions in its stead ? We know that the Word supposeth , that the Ignorant must have Teachers : Without Teaching Children cannot so much as learn to Speak . And Oportet discentem credere fide humanâ , that is , he must suppose his Teacher wiser than himself , or else how can he judge him fit to Teach him ? But what is Teaching , but Teaching the Learner to know the same things that the Teacher doth , by the same Evidence ? Is it only to know what the Teacher holdeth ? without knowing why ? If so , must we know it by Word , or Writing ? If by Word only , when and where shall every Man and Woman come to be Catechized by the Universal Church ? That is , by all the Christian World. Or is every Priest the Universal Church ? Or is he Infallible ? And how come Words spoken , to be more intelligible than words written ? Doth writing make them unintelligible ? Why then are their Councils and Commentaries written ? But if Writing will serve , why not God's writing as well as theirs ? If God say , Thou shalt Love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart : Are not these words intelligible till a Pope Expound them ? When the Pope permitted his Casuists to expound them so , as that Loving God once a Moneth , or once a Year , will serve for Salvation ; and that Attrition , which is Repeating only out of Fear , with the Sacrament of Penance , will also serve . Cannot a Man be saved , that Believeth , Repenteth , and Loveth God upon the bare Commands of God and Scripture , without hearing what all the Christian World or Councils say ? If I make to my self no Graven Image , so as to bow down and Worship towards it , by virtue of the second Commandment , will this damn me , because I receive not the Papists obliteration or contradiction of this Commandment as an Exposition ? If all the Docrees of Councils be as necessary as the Creed and Scripture , why were not the Councils read in the Church still ( three hundred Years before there was any General Council . ) as well as the Scriptures ? And why do not Hierome , Chrysostome , Augustine , &c. Exhort Me●… and Women to read the Councils as much as the Scriptures ? At least , methinks , you should allow the Scripture an Equality with Councils . But if God have spoken that which is nonsence or unintelligible till Councils or lopes Expound it , Scripture is far from having such Equality . Then Paul and Peter spake not intelligibly , but P. Paul 4 and 5. and the Council of Trent did : Then Councils may save them that know not Scripture , but Scripture cannot save them that know not the Councils : And do all the Papists , Men and Women , know the Councils ? In short , If a Tyrannical Sect of Priests can get this Monopoly , or Peculiar of expounding all Gods Laws and Word ; so that the Scripture will not save any but by their Expositions , it will become more the word of the Pope or Council , than of God : And when all is done , every Priest must be the pope and Council to us that never saw them , and must be the immediate Object of our Infallible belief . And if the Pope can so communicate to so great a swarm , the sweetness of participating in his Universal Dominion and Infallibility , no wonder if Self-love bid them serve his Usurpation . But by that time every Woman must be sure , 1. That the Pope is Christs Vicar General indeed . 2. That with a Council he is Infallible . 3. And that Gods Revelation must be received only on this Deliverers Authority . 4. And the sence of all on his Exposition . 5. And know how Men believed the first three hundred Years before such Popes or Councils ever were . 6. And can tell certainly which Councils be true , and which false ; and which of them must be believed , and which not . 7. And is sure that every Priest doth Infallibly Report all this to her . 8. And doth give a true . Exposition of each Council , before another Council do Expound them . 9. And be sure that she hath all that those Councils have made necessary , and have not had a sufficient proposal of more . I say , by that time all this certainty be attained , the Popish Faith will appear to be harder work than they think , that hear Deceivers say , Believe as the Church believeth , and you shall be saved . Judge how far the Pope Exalteth himself above God , when it is thus confidently told us , That we , ( nor no Men ) believe with a Divine and Saving Faith any one word of God ; if we believe it meerly because God hath given it us in the Sealed Scriptures , and add not the Expositions of the Papal Church . § . 12. My next Argument was , Those that explicitely profess the belief of all that was contained in the Churches Creeds , for six hundred Years after Christ , ( and much more Holy truth ) and implicitely to believe all that is contained in the Holy Scriptures , and to be willing and diligent for the explicite knowledge of all the rest , with a resolution to Obey all the will of God , which they know , do profess the true Christian Religion in all its Essentials : But so do the Protestants , &c. Here again the Formalist wants Form : An Enumeration of particulars in a Description , is not equal to an Universal with him , unless he read [ All. ] And then he denyeth the Major : 1. Because our General Profession is contradicted in particulars . Answ. 1. Bare Accusation without Proof , is more easie than honest . 2. There is a contradiction direct , and understood , which proveth that the Truth is not believed ; and a contradiction by consequence not understood , which stands with a belief of the Truth . The latter all Men in the World have , that have any Moral Error . 3. O what self-condemning Men are these ! How certainly hath a Papist no true Faith , if abundance of contrary Errors nullifie Faith. His second Reason is , You distinguish not between implicitely contained in general Principles , and explicitely contained in the Creed and Scriptures . Answ. A very Logical Answer . To what purpose should I do it ? His third is the strength , Creeds and Scriptures are not enough ; Traditions and General Councils , in matters of Faith , must be believed . Answ. 1. I would matters of Practice were more at Liberty that Princes were not bound to Murder or exterminate all their Subjects as Hereticks , that will not be Hereticks and inhumane ; and to Rebel perfidiously against those Princes that are Sentenced by his Holiness for not doing it . 2. Alas , who can be saved on these Mens terms ? If the belief of all the Creeds , and all the Scriptures , be not a Faith big enough to save him ? And yet , perhaps , you may hear again , that Men may be saved without any of all this , save believing that there is a Rewarding God , and that the Pope and his Subjects are the Infallible Church Universal . And it is but proving [ an insufficient proposal ] and we are delivered from Traditions , Councils , Scriptures , Creeds and all . And never was the proposal of Councils more insufficient , than when Councils were most frequent ; when in the Reign of Constantius , Valens , Valentinian , Theodosius , Arcadius and Honorius , good Theodosius junior , Marcian , Leo , Zeno , Anastasius , Iustin , Iustinian , and long after ; Anathematizing one General Council , and crying up another ; and setting Council against Council , was too much of the Religion of those times . 4. Again , he denyeth , that Protestants , not excused by Invincible Ignorance , believe any Article with a Saving Faith. Answ. Easie Disputing : Cannot a Quaker say so too , by us and you ? But how unhappy a thing is Knowledge then ; and how blessed a thing is Invincible Ignorance , which may prevent so many Mens Damnation ? § . 13. I proved the Major by the express Testimony of many Papists , ad hominem : To which he saith , It is to no purpose : For our Question is not , of what is to be believed expresly only , but of what is to be believed both expresly and implicitely of all Christians respectively . Answ. Reader , Judge with what Ingenuity these Men Dispute ! And how they make nothing of giving up all their cause , and yet Cant on with any of the most senseless words ! He had largely enough told us before , that the belief of General Truths explicitely , is the Implicite belief of the contained particulars , though unknown to the Believer . I am now proving , that Protestants explicite Faith leaveth out no Article necessary to be explicitely believed : To this end I cite Bellarmine and Costerus ( and after many others ) consessing what I say in plainest words , even the sufficiency of our enumeration . He denyeth none of my proof , as to explicite belief : And do we need any more ? Is not all that which he calleth explicite belief , the meer denomination of the Explicite , from the particulars implyed in it ? Can any Man want an Implicite belief , that wanteth no Explicite belief ? If I am not bound explicitely to believe that the Pope and his Council is the Universal Church , or the Infallible deliverer of Traditions , or Expounder of Scripture , or my rightful Governours ; how am I bound , or how can I be said to believe Implicitely their unknown Doctrine or Articles of Faith ? What is my Implicite belief of Scripture-Particles , but my General belief that all the Scripture is Gods Word , and true ? And what is Implicite belief of Popish Traditions in particular , but the explicite belief that all Popish Traditions in general are true ? If therefore these Disputers confess the sufficiency of our explicite neccessary belief , and yet damn us for the insufficiency of our implicite belief , they shamefully contradict themselves , and give up their cause . § . 14. Next I thus Argued , If sincere Protestants are Members of the True Church , as intrinsecally informed ( or as Bellarmine speaketh , Living Members ) then professed Protestants are Members of the true Church , as extrinsecally denominated ( or as it is Visible ) consisting of Professours : But the Antecedent is true ; Ergo , so is the Consequent . To this ( when I had given the Reason of the Consequence undenyable ) and said , I prove the Antecedent or Minor , he saith , You prove , say you , your Antecedent or Minor , which is a Syntax in Logick , and deserves a Ferula , for no Minor can be an Antecedent . Answ. For this Mans sake , I will know a Man better than by his Hectoring , before I will go to School to a boaster . Reader , 1. What is that Error in Logick that is called a Syntax ? I thought Order or Concord had been no Error : I confess my self not wise enough to understand this great Logician . And his Ferula is too ready , which must be used for Syntaxes , when it is more used for violation of Syntax . 2. Risum teneatis : Can no Antecedent be a Minor ( so did Dr. Peter Heylin tell me before him , in his Certamen Epistolare : ) I suppose I shall never hear a third say so . What 's the matter , that the Boys Laugh at this , and say , that to deny the Antecedent of an hypothetical Proposition , and to deny the minor is all one ? Is it that Boys have made all our usual Logicks , and now these two Logick Doctors have Reformed them ? Or hath this Man pretended to be a Champion in that Art , in which he is below the Novices ? He had hit it if he had held to his offer to Dispute before a Lady ( a Girle ) only in Syllogism by the Pen ; for this with her might have past for currant and invincible Logick . § . 15. I proved the Minor thus : All that by Faith in Christ are brought to the unfeigned Love of God above all , and special Love of his Servants , and unfeigned willingness to Obey him , are Members of the True Church , as intrinsecally informed . But such are all sincere Protestants , &c. This Minor the Man denyeth , and saith , That Protestants have not these things . Answ. 1. Mark how hard this Man is put to it to renounce his Charity : He cannot do it without denying what he granteth . A sincere Professor of any Religion , is one that really is what he professeth to be : He denyeth not that Protestants profess to Love God , &c. And yet he denyeth the Minor , that sincere Protestants do love God : As if he that sincerely professeth to Love God , doth not Love him . These are Papist's Syllogisms . 2. Note , That this Man seemeth to know all Protestants Hearts better than they do themselves , and can prove them all Hypocrites that Love not God. 3. But by this you see how he reproacheth all those Protestants that turn Papists , as having all been but before but graceless ungodly Hypocrites : And what wonder then if they turn ? 4. But it may be his word [ formally ] is a cheat . A Protestant is a Christian renouncing Popery : It is his Christianity which containeth his Love to God : His renouncing Popery , is but his freedom from their sin . And , perhaps , the Man hath a mind to call this the Form of Protestants : But I hope his Talk shall not deprive us of the Love of God , or of our Neighbour . In the mean time , any Man that can truly say , that he is not an ungodly Hypocrite without the Love of God and Man , hath Argument enough to Answer any Papist in himself . 5. Again , Reader , mark how much these Men magnifie themselves , and how much they vilifie the Word and Works of God. Let a Man see all Gods wonderful Goodness in his Works , and in his Mercies to himself and all Mankind ; let him read and believe all the wonderful Love of the Father , and Grace of the Son that is described in all the Scriptures : Let him believe the Promises there Recorded of Everlasting Glory , and All this is insufficient to cause him savingly to Love God or Man : But let him but add the belief , that the Pope is the Governour of all the Earth , and that he and his Council must be believed in all their Traditions and Expositions , and then the work will be done , and he may Love God unseignedly , and be Loved by him . The Holy Ghost will not work by the Scripture , unless we take the Pope for the Expositor : Yea , more ; if a Man never heard of Scripture , or if he believe not in Christ , for want of the Popes sufficient proposal , he may Love God , and be saved , so he do but believe that the Pope , with his Council , is a sufficient proposer . And is there any account in Reason to be given of this strange Phaenomenon , why a Man can Love God , if he believe in the Pope of Rome , and yet cannot Love him by all his Works and Mercies , with the belief of all the Scriptures ? Or is it as very a Miracle as Transubstantiation , and Sanctification by Holy-Water , or the Opus operatum , and one of those Miracles that prove the Church of Rome to be all the Church on Earth . § . 16. But he repeateth again the thred-bare Reason , Had they this , they would never have disobeyed and disbelieved all the Churches in the World. Answ. That is , the Pope and his Priests , who are against the far greatest part of the Christian World , and Yearly Anathematized by the Greeks ; who , when they had lost the Primacy of the Eastern part of one Empire , have tryed to make up the loss , by laying Claim to all the Earth . O! of what consequence is Obedience to an Ambitious Pope or Priest , in comparison of Obedience to all the written Laws of God ? § . 17. I proved the Minor two ways : 1. If this ( the Love of God , &c. ) be in our profession , then the sincere are such indeed : But this is in our profession : Ergo : — Of this he denyeth the Minor , It is not in our profession . What , not that we Love God , and are willing to understand and obey his Word ? Is he not driven up to the Wall , even to another denyal of all Mens Eyes and Ears ? Do not I profess it while I write these words ? And have not I professed it in sixty Volumns and more ? And do not Protestant Libraries contain such professions , and their Pulpits ring of them every Lords Day ? What is a Profession ; but Words and Writings ? And are not these Audible and Visible to the World ? And yet the denying ( not of the sincerity ) but the very Being of them , is the Papists confutation of us . § . 18. Secondly , I proved it from our knowledge and sense of our own Acts. When I know and feelmy Love , shall I believe a Pope that never saw me , that tells me , I do not know or feel it ? To this , his easie Answer serveth : He saith , I do not feel that I truly Love God or his Servants , if I be a Formal Protestant , my Heart deceives me . Answ. No wonder if all these Priests are Infallible , that know all our Hearts so much better than we . But who shall be Judge ? The true searcher of Hearts ? If the Fruits must be the Evidence , I should rather fear that such Murderers of hundred thousands as killed the Waldenses , Albigenses , French , English , Dutch , &c. were like to be without Love , than all those meek and Godly Protestants that I have known ; for no Murderer hath Eternal Life . But forma is sometime taken for figura , and for outward appearance only : And such formal Protestants , as have but the cloathing of Christianity , have not indeed the Love of God. § . 19. He addeth , What would you say to an Arrian , a Turk , or Jew , that would urge the like knowledge or feeling ? Answ. The same that I would do to a bloody Papist : And'I would tell him , that if a Bediam think that he is a Prince , or a Fool that he is Wise , or a Beggar that he is a Lord , or an illiterate Man that he is Learned , it doth not follow , that no Man can know that he is a Prince , or a Lord , or Wise , or Learned . I would tell him , that there can be no effect without the adequate cause ; nor is there a cause where there is no effect : And lie that perceiveth not God's amiableness in the necessary demonstrations of it , cannot Love that Goodness he perceiveth not ; nor can any desire or seek the Heaven , which he believeth not . And I would tell him , that he that believeth not in a Redeemer or a Sanctifier , cannot Love him , nor can he Love Believers and Godly Men , as such , who knoweth not that they , as such , are Lovely : And that if really he Love God and Holyness , and the hopes of Heaven before this World , it will work in his seeking them above the World. If you had Argued rationally against our Love of God , and Holyness , from any proved defect in the necessary cause ( which is in you ) we had been Obliged thankfully to hear and try your words . But let Reason judge e. g. whether that man be like to love this world best , and be loth to leave it , who looketh to go at death into the flames of Purgatory , or he that looketh to go to the glorious presence of his Redeemer . And whether he be like to Love God best , that look eth to be tormented by him in those flames , or he that looketh to passe into heavenly perfect Love : Christ telleth us that forgiving much causeth Love ; If a man were to torment you so long , would it make you love him ? or at least is it a good proof that Protestants Love not God , because they believe not that he will torment them in flames , but presently comfort them . § . 20. II. My ad . Argument to prove the perpetual visibility of our Church , was this , [ The Church whose Faith is contained in the Holy Scripture , as its rule in all points necessary to Salvation , hath been visible ever since the dayes of Christ on Earth . But the Church whose Faith is contained in the Holy Scriptures as it's rule in all points necessary to Salvation , is it of which the Protestants are members . Therefore the Church of which the Protestants are members , hath been visible , &c. Here he wanteth Form again , because the praedicate of the Minor is the Subject of the conclussion , and then he distinguisheth of the Maior ; of containing Involutely in General principles , he granteth it , but if expresly he denyeth it . Answ. 1. The marvellous Logician it seems is but for one mood or figure , but by what authority or Reason ? 2. He denyeth that the Churches Faith in all points necessary to Salvation is expresly contained in the Scripture . I proved the contrary ad hominem , before , out of Bellarmine and Costerus plain words ; and shall by and by further prove it . Mark again the Papists value of the Holy Scriptures , he that explicitly believeth all that it expresly delivereth , and no more , say these men , cannot be saved : and yet if they believe none of it , but a rewarding Deity say most , or some more of the Creed say others , men may be saved if they do but believe that all is Gods word and truth which the Pope and his Priests or Council say is such . Next he distinguisheth of [ all things necessary to Salvation to be by all distinctly known and expresly believed , ] and so he granteth the Scripture-sufficiency : Very good ! Now all that is so necessary to a distinct knowledge and express belief is there . But of [ all things to be Believed implicitly and distinctly known . ] he denyeth it , These distinctions supposed ( saith he ) I deny your Consequence . Answ. Here is all new still . 1. He calleth my Conclusion my Consequence ; ( and reciteth it ) 2. What he meaneth by [ things to be distinctly known by all , and yet Believed but implicitely ] is past my understanding , having to do with that man that hath all this while described implicite Belief , by the express Belief of some meer General truth . And must men know all that distinctly , which they Believe not distinctly but in their general ? the man sure was confounded , or confoundeth me ! The General to be Believed is the Pope and Councils authority in propounding and expounding Gods word , ( This is their saving Faith : ) the Belief of all that they propose is implicitely contained in this ; but must all this be distinctly known by all , and yet not distinctly Believed ? The first would damn all that know not every one of their Councils decrees de fide : the ad . will shew that they Believe nothing at all ; for he that knoweth distinctly what the Pope saith , and yet Believeth it not distinctly , cannot Believe the general of his veracity . But perhaps he spake distributively of two sorts of Faith , viz. both the Implicite and the Explicite , and so meant to deny the Scripture-sufficiency only to the first ; if so , I shewed the flat contradiction of it before . Where there is all that is necessary to be Believed expresly , eo nomine , there is all that is necessary to be Believed implicitely , because to be Believed implicitly , with this man is but to be the unknown consequent or inclose of that which is Believed expresly . § . 21. For the proof of my Major ( the Scripture-sufficiency as to all things commonly necessary to Salvation ) after Bellarmine and Costerus , I have cited the plain words at large of 1. Ragus . in Council , Basil. Bin. p. 299. 2. Gerson de exam . doct . p. 2. cont . 2. 3. Durandus in Praefat. & Hierom. in hym . 4. Aquinas 22. 9. 1. à 10. ad 1. & de Verit. disp . de fide q. 10. ad 11. 5. Scatus in Prolegom in sect . 1. 6. Greg. Armin. in Prol. e. g. q. 1. art . 2. Resp. fol. 3. & 4. 7. Guil. Parisiens . de Legib. c. 16. p. 46. 8. Bellarmine again de verbo Dei li. 10. c. 10. ad arg . 5. &c. And then I most fully proved it out of the ancient Church-Doctors . But to all these he giveth such frivolous Answers , that it irketh me to weary the Reader by repeating and answering them . And he that will faithfully peruse the Authors words , I think will either need no other confutation of him , or is uncapable of understanding one when he seeth it . The fore-confuted contradiction of sufficient explicite , and yet not sufficient implicite is the chief : and next a vain supposition , that , to say that Scripture is sufficient to all Theological points and conclusions , is less than to say , it is sufficient to necessary Articles of Faith ; and if any of them speak of the Churches exposition , he denyeth the Scripture-sufficiency as a rule : and yet their Councils need exposition too . § . 22. III. My 3d. Argument for our Churches perpetual visibility was : If the Roman Church ( as Christian , though not as Papal ) hath been visible ever since the dayes of the Apostles , then the Church of which the Protestants are members hath been visible ever since the dayes of the Apostles : but the Antecedent is their own . Therefore they may not deny the Consequent . Here he wants Form again , because [ as Christian ] is in the Antecedent and not in the sequel . Answ. He might have seen that it is but an Expository term in a parenthesis , and so the same exposition in the consequent is supposed . Next he saith , that it is a fallacy , a secundum quid ad simpliciter . Answ. so then the Church as Christian is not the Christian Church , but secundum quid ; but we that know no other , profess to be of no other , nor to prove the visibility of any other , than the Church as Christian. Let them prove more that pretend to any other . Next he saith , that [ the Protestants have been visible as Christians ] is all that can be pretended : and yet that also he denyeth , for they believe not one Article with an infallible , supernatural , divine Faith. Answ. 1. The question is , whether they profess not so to do : nay rather , whether their objective Faith , ( that is , all the Creed and Holy Scriptures ) be not infallible , of supernatural Revelation and Divine ; he that denyeth this seemeth an Infidel . But if all the members of the Church must have an actual subjective Faith that is of supernatural , divine infusion : Then 1. No hypocrite is a Church-member ; 2. And no man can know who is a Church-member besides himself . 3. And so the Church of Rome is invisible ; this is clear . 2. I must not too oft write the same things ; if the Reader will peruse a small Tract of mine called [ The certainty of Christianity without Popery ] he shall soon see whether the Papists Faith or Ours be the more certain and divine : Of which also I have said , more in my Treatise called The safe Religion , and Mr. Pool in his nullity of the Roman Faith. § . 23. I here shewed that having proved our visibility as Christian , I need not prove a visibility as Papal , any more than he that would prove his humane Genealogie , having some leprous Ancestors , need to prove that all were leprous . Here he denyeth Popery to be Leprosie , and again falsly tells us , that if it were so , all the visible Church in the world was leprous ; which needs no more confutation than is oft given it . § . 24. He tells me how an . 1500 the Pope was in possession , and we dispossest him without order , &c. Answ. An old Cant , but 1. I have fully proved that he never was in possession of the Government of the Christian world . 2. Nor in the Empire or any other Princes dominion , but by humane donation and consent ; as the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury is in England . 3. And that they that gave him that power , may on just reason take it away . And that the Bishop of another Princes Countrey , cannot stand here by his authority , when he hath lost the Government of England himself . § . 25. IV. My 4th . Argument added more than my Thesis required , viz. If there have been since the dayes of Christ , a Christian Church that was not subject to the Roman Pope as the Vicar of Christ and universal Head and Governour of the Church , then the Church of which the Protestants are members hath been visible , both in it's Being and in it's freedom from Popery . But the Antecedent is true : Ergo so is the Consequent . To this 1. he wants the word [ ever ] in the Antecedent . And yet before abated it , but he knoweth that [ since ] was put for [ ever since . ] 2. He saith , I suppose that the sole denyal of the Popes supremacy constitutes the Church whereof the Protestants are members . Answ. In despight of my , frequent professions to the contrary ; who still tell him , that our Christianity and Relation to Christ and one another makes us Church-members : and our freedom from the Papacy is our renunciation of an Usurper . § . 26. I proved my Antecedent 1. from the express words of the Council of Calcedon can . 28 which he answers as before , where he is consuted . § . 27. 2. My 2d . proof was from the silence of the ancient writers Tertullian , Cyprian , Athan. Nazianzene , Nissene , Basil , Optatus , Augustine , &c. that used not this argument of Popes power over all the world as of Divine Right , to confute the Hereticks that they had to do with ; when two words had expeditiously done all , if this had then been Believed . Here he saith , Their authors have proved that the Fathers did so . Answ. Soon said , and as soon denyed . The books are in our hands , as well as yours . I will now instance but in Cyprian and the African Churches in his dayes , and in Augustine , and the same Churches in his dayes . 1. Did Cyprian and his Council believe Stephens Universal Monarchy , when he opposed his judgment with so much vehemency , and set the Scripture against his plea from tradition ? Let him that will read his Epistles of this ( too long to be recited ) believe it if he can . And when he twitted his arrogance in Council , with nemo nostrum se dicit Episcopum Episcoporum . 2. The plea of Aurelius , Augustine and the rest of the African Bishops I have formerly recited , of which Harding saith , that the Africans seduced by Aurelius , continued twenty years in Schism from Rome : and did Augustine and all the rest then believe the Popes Sovereignty even in the Empire ? I did plainly show that if the Donatis●…s , Novatians , and all such Sects had believed the Roman Sovereignty and Infallibility , they had not so differed from them ; if they did not believe it , the Fathers would have taken the neerest way , and wrote their Volumnes to convince them that this Papal Rule was it that must end all their controversies , ( instead of writing voluminously from Scripture and the nature of the cause : ) which they did not . § . 28. My 3d. proof was this [ The Tradition witnessed by the greater part of the Universal Church saith , that the Papal Vicarship or Sovereignty is an innovation and usurpation , and that the Catholick Church was many hundred years without it . Therefore there was then no such Papat Church . Here the man is angry , and saith , It is an abominable untruth set down by a fore-head of brass . — A man in his right wits would not have the confidence to utter so loud a falshood , — and all the world will see that I am one of the most unsufferablest out-facers of Truth and asserters of open Falshood that ever set pen to paper : yea , it brings in the talk of Rebellion against his Majesty , &c. Answ. The apprehensions of men are very different , when reading ( it's like ) the same books leaveth me past doubt on one side , and him so vehemently confident on the other . My proof is this , 1. The greatest part of the Universal Church doth now deny the Papal Universal Sovereignty . 2. The greatest part of the Universal Church do suppose and say that they hold herein to the ancient truth which was delivered down from the Apostles . 3. Therefore the greatest part of the Universal Church do hold that the ancient truth delivered from the Apostles doth teach them to deny the Popes Universal Sovereignty ; and consequently that it is an innovation and usurpation . I. As to the first , it is a matter of present fact , such as whether most of England speak English . 1. That the great Empire of Abassia renounce the Pope , ( and plead tradition for it ) Godignus the Jesuite ( besides others ) fully testifieth , and justifieth Pet. Maffeius , Ribade , Nica and other Jesuites against 〈◊〉 new author that falsly saith they were subject to the Pope . He tells us that they take the Romans for Nestorian Hereticks , p. 318. 328. &c. and that they resolved never to be subject to the Pope , that he that told them otherwise misinformed them , yea saith one of the Jesuites , pag. 330. I think the Emperour had rather be under the hardest yoak of the Saracens , than under the mild and gentle Empire † of the Roman Pope . It 's true that many errors they have , and many more are charged on them , which they deny , and believing that Dioscorus was the true follower of Cyril and the Council of Ephes. and that Leo and the Council of Calcedon were Nestorians ( of which more anon ) they are for Dioscorus against Leo and the Council . But few if any of them understand the bottom of that controversie . And the Emperor told the Jesuite that he falsly charged errors on them , and his mother saith [ seeing your Faith and ours do nothing differ , but are the same , why do you write to trouble quiet minds without cause ? The Jesuite answereth , I certainly affirm to your Majesty , that if you had no other Errors , this one , that you are separated from the Pope of Rome , the Vicar of Christ on Earth , is enough and too much to your everlasting destruction . II. To this she replyed , that she and her Countrey were subject to the Apostles Peter and Paul , and first to Christ himself . The Jesuite answered , I deny that they are subject to Christ , that are not subject to his Vicar . — Saith she , neither I nor mine deny obedience to St. Peter , we are now in the same Faith that we were in from the beginning , If that were not right , why for so many Ages and Generations was there no man found that would warn us of our error ? — He answered , The Pope of Rome that is the Pastor of the whole ▪ Church of Christ , could not in the years past send Tea●…hers into Abassia , &c — She answered , To change the old Customs and Rites , and receive new ones , is a matter full of danger and offence . He answered , that their Faith was old and had nothing new , &c. p. 323 , 324 , 325. The Emperor also spake to the like purpose . p. 319. 320 , 321. So that it is confessed by the Jesuites and best information from Abassia . 1. That they abhorre or refuse the Papal Government . 2. And that for this they plead Tradition and Antiquity . And the same is notorious of the Greek , Armenian , and other Oriental Churches . How large they were in the East when Iacobus de Vitriaco was there I have formerly shewed out of his words , who saith that those Eastern Christians were more than either the Greek or Latin Church : and as the Greeks anathematize the Pope every year , so the rest are known to reject him . To say that these are Hereticks and not the Church , is but to beg the question , and fitter for contempt than an answer . That all such rejecters of the Papacy are the farre greatest part of professed Christians is past doubt . 2. And that Greeks , Armenians . &c. plead Tradition and the judgment and custome of their fore-fathers for what they hold , is so farre past question , that I will not vainly wast time in citing authors to prove it . Even the Papists confess it when they tell us that these Churches joyn with them in pleading for tradition . Is not then the consequence clear , which W. I. is so angry at ? I know not what can be said against it , unless that both the Greeks and Protestants do confess that once they were under the Pope : but the Greeks say that they were never under him as a Governour of the whole Christian world , set up by God , but as the Primate of one Empire set up by man , upon such reasons ( the Seat of the Empire ) as are alterable as well as unnecessary . I have proved this fully before , 1. From the words of the Council of Calcedon . 2. From their equalling and after preferring the Patriarch of Constantinople , who pretended not to a Divine Right and that as over all the world ; and they were not so blind as to set up a humane Law , above that which they believed to be divine ; many other proofs I gave . And even the Protestants hold that in rejecting the Papacy they follow the Tradition of the Church of Christ , however some Countreys where they live and their progenitors fell under the Papal errour or terrour . There are some late Papists that think that what is held in this age was certainly held in the former , and that no Countreys Tradition can be false : Which is contrary to all experience . But if other Countreys Tradition may be false , so may the Roman . Niceph. saith of the Armenians , [ They do these things from Tradition , which resteth on no Reason ; and their ancient Legislators and Doctors , do calumniously boast that Gregory the Bishop of great Armenia delivered them by hands , &c l. 18. c. 54. And the Abassians that received the Gospel from the Eunuch and St. Matthew , being before too much addicted to some Jewish ceremonies and never cured of them , retain them as by Tradition to this day . And it is known how Tradition differed about Easter-day and the Millenaries opinion . By all this it is evident that most of the Christian world take the Religion which they hold , to be that which by Tradition the Church received for the Apostles : and therefore most being against the Papacy , think Tradition is against it . And the Tradition of two parts of the Christian world , especially those next Ierusalem , is more regardable as such , than the Tradition of the third part only that is contrary ; unless better Historical proof mak a difference . § . 29. 4. My 4th . proof was [ Many Churches without the virge of the Roman Empire never subjected themselves to Rome ( and many , not of many hundred years after Christ ) : Ergo there were visible Churches from the beginning to this day , that were not for the Roman Vicarship . To this he saith , If I can prove ( as I have proved ) that any one Extra-imperial Church was subject to the Bishop of Rome , and you cannot shew some evident reason why that was subject rather than all the rest , I convince by that the subjection of all . Now it is evident that the Churches of Spain , France , Britain , of France , and Germany , when divided from the Roman Empire , were as subject as the rest , &c. Answ. 1. Yes , and much more , Rome it 〈◊〉 was then under Theodorick , and other Arrian Gothes ; and those Rulers gave them their liberty herein , and being Hereticks , no wonder if the Bishops chose to continue their former correspondency and Church-order , to strengthen themselves . Here is then a special reason why Rome it self and the rest of the Churches should so voluntarily continue . 1. Their old custom , when under the Empire , had so setled them . 2 Their strength and safety invited them . 3. It was their voluntary act . 2. But what 's this to those many hundred years before , when the Empire was not so dismembered ? Though even till after Gregories daies ( an . 6●… ) the Britains obeyed you not ; yet I told you that when Pagans or Arrians conquered any parts of the Empire , the Christians would still be as much under the old Christian power as they could : which made the Major Armenia , when subdu●…d by the Persians , crave the Romans Civil Government , and revolt to the Emperor and kill their Magistrates , even when they were not governed by the Pope at all . § . 30. Here he repeateth what he had frivolously said before of the Council of Nice ( with an odd supposition as if India were in America ) and then betaketh himself to prove out of the Fathers the Roman Sovereignty ; but with such vain citations that I dare not tire the Reader , with repeating and particularly answering them . 1. They being at large answered by Chamier , Whittakers , and many other Protestants long ago ; and many of them or most by my self in my key , and my former answer to him . 2. Because it is needless to him that will peruse the Authors and Histories themselves , and useless to him that will not . 3. This general answer is sufficient . 1. Part of them are the words of spurious books , as St. Denis , an interpolate book of Cyprian , some new found Chaldaick , Nicene Canons , &c. 2. Part of them say nothing of the Pope , but only of St. Peter , as being the first of the Apostles , but not as the Governour of the rest . 3. Part , or almost all of them , speak only of an Imperial Primacy , that mention the Pope . 4. Part of them speak only of an honorary precellencie of Rome and the Church there . 5. Some speak only de facto , that at that time the Church of Rome had kept out the Arrian , Nestorian , and Eutychian Heresies , more than the ●…ast did ( which was because they had more orthodox Emperours , ) and therefore that those sects that then differed from them were not in the Right , nor in the Church . 6. Some are only the commendations of Eastern Bishops persecuted by the Arrians in the East , that fled to Rome for shelter . 7. As high words are often given by Doctors and Councils themselves of Cyril and other Bishops of Alexandria , and of Bishops of Ierusalem , Antioch and Constantinople , as those that are acquainted with Church-writings know . There needeth no longer confutation of his Citations . § . 31. My fifth proof was , that The Eastern . Churches within the Empire were never subjects of the Pope . ] He denyeth this Antecedent ; I proved it ( as formerly from the Africans Letters to Celestinus , and the words of Basil , &c : ) So farther : 1. Because the Pope chose not the Patriarchs of Alexandria , Antioch , Ierusalem , or Constantinople , nor the Bishops under them , 2. He did not ordain them , nor appoint any Vicar to do it , nor did they hold their power as under him : To both these he saith , [ It was not necessary , &c. ] But their Patriarchal power was from him . ] Answ. Prove that and you do something , but no man verst in Church-writings can believe you ; I remember not to have met with any learned Papist that affirmeth it , ( that the Pope set up the other four Patriarchs ) : it is notorious in history , that as the Churches of Ierusalem and Antioch were before the Church of Rome , so Alexandria , Antioch and Rome were made Patriarchates together , and no one of them made the rest ; and the other two were added since . He proveth it because , he restored and deposed those Patriarchs as occasion required . Answ. 1. Tell this to those that never read such writings , Princes and Councils did set them up , and cast them out as they saw cause ; it were tedious , ( and needless to any but the ignorant ) to recite the multitude of instances , through the reign of all the Christian Emperors till Phocas time ; how little had the Pope to do in most of their affairs ? 2. They frequently set up and deposed one another , ( far ofter than the Pope did any ; ) Doth that prove that they were Governours of each other accordingly ? 3. Councils then judged all the Patriarchs Roman and all , as is notorious . 4. The Pope sometime when he saw his advantage , and saw one side striving against another ; would set in to shew his ambition , as the prime Patriarch , to strengthen himself by such as needed him , and usually was against him that was likest to overtop him ( as neighbour Princes in War are afraid of the strongest ) and that was usually the Bishop of Constantinople . 3. I said They received no Laws of his to rule by . He replyeth The Lawes and Canons of the Church they received , and those were consirmed by his authority . Answ. But did he make them any Lawes himself ? by the Church your mean Councils : and those made Laws for him ; therefore he was their subject . He had but a voice , and was not so much as a speaker in the Parliament : some Councils you confess he neither presided in , nor any for him ( as Binnius confesseth of Council Const. ) He had little to do in any of the Councils for 500 or 600 years , less by far than the other Patriarchs . 4. I said They were not commanded or judged by him . He replyeth I have evidenced they were commanded and judged by him . Answ. Reader , the solution of such historical controversies is by reading the histories themselves . Read throughly the histories of Eusebius , Socrates , Sozomene , Theodoret , Evagrius , Procopius , Victor , Nicephorus , &c. and judge as you see cause : especially if you will also read but the works of Tertullian , Cyprian , Nazianzene , Basil , Hilary , and the true Acts of the old Councils . 5. I added the equalizing the Patriarch of Constantinople , which he denyeth against the express words of the Council . ) I might adde the after prefering the Bishop of Constantinople , The oft contempts and excommunications of him , the altering of Church power ordinarily by the Emperors ; is Iustinian's making Iustiniana prima and secunda , to be absolute and under no Patriarch , as was Carthage ; and saith Pet. a Marca and many others , Heraclea , Pontus and Asia long . The managing of many Councils without him , and passing Canons ( as Calced . 28. ) against him : The whole Council of Ephes. 2. going against his Legates , and that under a most pious and excellent Prince Theodos. 2. that used Cyril and made him President , Ephes. 1. and Dioscorous Ephes. 2d . and countenance this Council against the Pope . When Zeno carryed on his Henoticon and Anastasius his Reconciliation , how little did he , or any of the Eastern Churches stick at the Popes dissent ? No nor Iustinian when he turned to the Heresie of the Apththartodocitae , and when he drag'd Vigilius , as some Historians say , with a rope ; instances might be multiplyed . § . 32. My 6th proof of the novelty of the Papal Sovereignty was from the testimony of their own greatest Bishops , where I cited Greg. 1st . his words so plain and large against a Universal Bishop or Pastor , as plainer can scarce be spoke , and answered Bellarmine words against it ; and I shall take the impartial Reader to need no more answer to W I. than even to read the words of Gregory themselves ; only noting , that this Iohn of Constantinople that claimed the title of Universal Bishop , was a man of more than ordinary mortification and contempt of worldly things ; for his poverty and great fasting called , Iohannes jejunus , and therefore not like to do it , out of any extraordinary worldliness and pride . And also that Gregory was of so little power himself ( being then out of the Empire under other powers for the most part ) that he did not blame Iohn as for claiming that which he hath right to , but that which no Bishop at all had right to . The case is most plain . § . 33. My 7th . proof was , The Papists themselves confess that multitudes of Christians , if not most by far ; have been the opposers of the Pope , or none of his Subjects : Therefore there have been visible Churches of such . To this [ He granteth the antecedent of Christians net Univocally so called , but of no others . ] Answ. Here he intimateth that most of the professed Christians of the world were not univocally Christians by profession , but equivocally only : and who will easily believe such Teachers , as unchristen most of the Christian World. Any Sect may take that course ; their sence is this , none are Christians indeed but only those that are subjects to the Pope ; therefore all the Christian World are his Subjects : Just so the Donatists , and some Foreign Anabaptists , take it but for granted , that none are Christians but those that are Baptized at Age ; and then the Inference will be plausible , that all the Christian World is against Infant-Baptism . § . 34. To Ae●…eas Sylvius ( Pope Pius 2d . ) words , That small regard was had to the Church of Rome , before the Nicene Council : He replyeth , that he meaneth , not so small , as not to be the Head of all other Churches ; else the Council of Nice had introduced a new Government . Answ. His words are plain , and all History of those times confirm them . No one Church , before the Council of Nice , had any Government over others , but what was for meer Concord , by free consent ; at least , before Constantine gave it them . And in the Council of Nice , there is not a word that intimateth , that the Pope was Ruler of all the World of Christians ; but his power is mentioned , as limited to his Precincts ; and the like given to Alexandria . Yet Innovation , in giving power to Patriarchs , is no wonder in Councils : How else came Constantinople and Ierusalem to be Patriarchs ? Was it not by Innovation ? § . 34. Next he saith , I cite Goldastus ; but where , the Lord knows . Answ. I perceive the Man is a stranger to Goldastus , who hath gathered a multitude of Old Writers against the Papacy , for Princes Rights , and bound them in many great Volumns , De Monarchia , & Constitut. Imperial . I cited no particular words , but all these great Volumns of many Authors of those times , shew the opposition to Papal Claims . § . 35. His saying , That the Schismatical Greeks were not Univocal Christians , is no more regardable than the Greeks Anathematizing Papists . § . 36. My plain Testimony of their Reynerius , Armeniorum Ecclesiae & Aethiopum & Induorum & caeterae quas Apostoli converterunt non subsunt Ecclesiae Romanae . He first cavils at my saying [ were not under . ] instead of [ are not ] not seeing that I only recited the Assertion , as uttered by Reynerius so long ago ; and must I not say , that he saith , then they were not under , if he so long ago say , They are not ? 2. But he would perswade the Credulous , that this speaks of them but as Schismaticks ; as Alexandria , Antioch , Constantinople , are not now under Rome , but have been . Answ , But those that will be satisfied with forced abuse of words , may believe any thing that a Priest will say . The context confuteth you : You do not pretend that India turned from you , and was under you . By the Churches Planted by the Apostles , he plainly meaneth those without the Empire , as being none of the Provinces put under the Bishop of Rome nor of old claimed by the Pope . § . 37. I cited Melch. Canus words , Loc. l. 6. c. 7. fol. 201. Not only the Greeks , but almost all ( or most ) of the rest of the Bishops of the whole World have vehemently sought to destroy the Priviledges of the Roman Church ; and indeed they had on their side both the Arms of Emperours , and the greatest number of Churches ; and yet they could never prevail to abrogate the Power of the one Roman Pope . To this , he saith , That 1. Canus speaks of different times , not conjunctly . 2. And he taketh them not for univocal Christians . And here he finds a Root of Rebellion , q. d. Most of the Countries Rebelled against the King , Ergo , he had no Authority over them . Answ. Our Question here was only of the matter of Fact : Whether , de facto , most of the Bishops and Churches have not been against the Papacy ? This Canus asserteth , therefore I seek no more . And when you have proved them no Christians , or Rebels , I shall consider your Proofs . 2. Had he meant only the most of the Bishops and Churches , per vices , it had signified nothing to his purpose : For that had been no strength , but might have been some inconsiderable Town at a time . 3. But that all Church-History may help us better to understand his words ; that tell us oft it was [ at once ] specially when Binnius said , that at Eph. 2. Concil . Only Peter's Ship escaped drowning . As to his Cavil at my Translation , Whether [ Ab aliis plerisque totius orbis Episcopis ] be not to be Translated , if not [ almost all the rest ] at least [ most of the rest of the Bishops of the whole World ] rather than [ very many others ] I leave to the ordinary Readers Judgment . And as for either Canus or his own saying , that all these ( the Greeks and most of the Bishops of the whole World , the greater number of Churches , and the Armed Emperours , were all Schismaticks , Hereticks , and no Christians but Equivocally ; it is no weak proof of the falseness of their Cause and Tyranny , that cannot stand without unchristening most of the Bishops and Churches in the World , with such Emperours : Canus his confession of the Historical Truth may be pleaded by me , while I hate their Robbing Christ of the greatest part of his Church , because they are not the Popes . § . 38. My Eighth Proof of the Novelty of the Papal Sovereignty , was from Historical Testimony , that the Papal sovereignty was no part of the Churches Faith , nor owned by the Ancients : This is done at large by Bloudel de Primatu . and Pet. Moulin , de Novitate Papismi , usher , Field , of the Church , lib. 5. Chaucer , Whittaker , Io. White , and many other . I instanced only in many Historians , Regino , Herman , Contract . Marian ; Scotus , Beneventus de Rambaldis , and others ; that say , Phocas first constituted ( saith one , or ) Boniface obtained of Phocas ( say others ) that the Church of Rome should be the Head of all Churches . To this , 1. He thinks I have forgot my first Thesis , because he forgot that when I had proved by three Arguments my Thesis , in the fourth , to satisfie their importunity , I proved it with the Addition , that there hath been a Christian Church still visible that Obeyed not the Pope ; and so added ten more Arguments to prove this Negative or Exclusive part . After he cometh to this again , and would have [ ut Caput esset ] to be no more than an acknowledgment of a controverted Title : But at least the Primus constituit confuteth that ; and it is not ut diceretur , haberetur , or denuò esset . He citeth Platina , as if it were a wonder for the Popes Houshold Servant to say , that it was his Right . 2. But I specially note , that both what is said of Phocas , and by him , of Iustinian , Gratian , &c. who constitute and command this Primacy and Subjection to it , shew that it was but Imperial , as to bounds and Authority . I before mentioned Suarez himself , in his Excellent Book , De Legibus , saying , That God hath made no Laws of Church-policy : And if so , not of the Papacy . § . 39. I noted their Novelty out of Platina , in Gregor . saying , What should I say more of this Holy Man ? whose whole Institution of the Church-Office , specially the Old one , was Invented and Approved by him : which Order I would we did follow ; then Learned Men would not at this day abhor the reading of the Office. Hence I Note , 1. That all their Church-Office was new , being Gregory's Invention ( though , no doubt , much of the Matter had been in use before that form . ) 2. Therefore the maintainers of Tradition cannot prove , that , because they thus Worship God now , therefore they always did so . 3. Gregory's Invented Office ( hardly received in Spain ) was so altered in Platina's time , that Learned Men abhorred the Reading of it . 4. Why might they not corrupt Church-Government ( where Ambition had a thousand times greater baits ) as well as Church-Offices ? This is their Antiquity and constancy : This W. I. thought meet in silence to pass by . § 40. My Ninth Proof of the Novelty of the Papal Sovereignty , was , If the Generality of Christians in the first Ages , and many ( if not most ) in the latter Ages have been free from the Essentials of the Papists Faith , then their Faith hath had no Successive Visible Church professing it in all Ages : ( but the Christians , that are against it , have been Visible . ) But the Antecedent is true : The Antecedent I proved in twelve Instances . To this he saith , It followeth not , that though our Church , as Papal , had no Successive Visibility ; the Church , whereof the Protestants are Members , had ever since Christs time on Earth , a Successive Visibility : When you have proved this Consequence , I Oblige my self to answer your Instances ; and so he durst not meddle with that matter , but puts it off . Answ. Reader , see here what an Issue our Dispute is brought to : Can you wish a plainer ? I proved that our Religion , being nothing else but Christianity , our Church hath been still Visible . because it is confessed , that the Christian Church hath been still Visible . But the Papists must have us prove also , that our Church-hath been still Visible , as without Popery . I now prove Popery a Novelty ; and doth not that then fully prove my Consequence , that the Christian Church was Visible without it ? And I prove , that this Novelty of Popery is yet received but by the third part of Christians ( of whom I am perswaded ten to one are either compelled to profess what they believe not , or understand it not : ) Therefore the Christian Church was once wholly , and is yet mostly without Popery . I know not when a Cause is given up , if here he give not up his Cause . § . 41. Twelve new Articles of the Papal Faith I named : 1. That the Pope is above a●… General Council ; Decreed at Later . and Florence . 2. Contrarily , That the Council is above the Pope , and may Iudge him , &c. Decreed at Basil and Constance : True before , as a point of Humane Order , but not made ever an Article of Faith. 3. That the Pope may Depose Princes , and give their Dominions to others , if they exterminate not all their Subjects that deny Transubstantiation ; Decreed at Later . sub . Innoc. 3. 4. That the Body and Blood , together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Iesus Christ , is truly , and really , and substantially in the Eucharist ; and that there is a change of the whole substance of Bread , into the Body , and of the whole substance of Wine , into the Blood , which they call Transubstantiation : Decreed at Trent , and proved new by Ed. Albertinus , Bishop Cousin's History of Trans . and by my self . 5. That the Eucharist is rightly given and taken under one kind ( without the Cup : ) Decreed at Constance and Trent . 6. That we must never take and Interpret Scripture , but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers . See the Trent-Oath ; whereas , 1. We have no certainty whom to take for Fathers ( a great part being called both Fathers and Hereticks by the Papists . ) 2. And they greatly disagree among themselves . 3. And have not unanimously given us any sence at all of a quarter of the Bible ( if of the hundredth part . ) 7. That there is a Purgatory , and that the Souls there detained , are holpen by the Suffrages of the Faithful . 8. That the Holy Catholick Church of Rome is the Mother and Mistress of all Churches , ( and yet it is the Catholick , that is , the whole it self . ) 9. That Traditions are to be received with equal pious Affection and Reverence as the Holy Scripture . 10. That the Virgin Mary was conceived without Original sin : Decreed at Basil. 11. That the people may not read the Scripture Translated into a known Tongue , without a special License . 12. That the Books of Maccabees , and other such , are part of the Canon of Faith ; ( against which , see Bishop Cousins , and Dr. Io. Reignolds . ) See in Dr. Challenor's Credo Eccles. Cath. sixteen of their Novelties . See Dallaus , De cultu Latinorum , their Worship proved new . All this W. I. passeth over . § . 42. My Tenth Argument was , If multitudes ( yea , the far greatest part ) of Christians in all Ages , have been Ignorant of Popery , but not of Christianity ; then there hath been a Succession of Visible Professours of Christianity , that were no Papists : But the Antecedent is true : Ergo , &c. Here I brought full proof of the Antecedent : 1. From the Ignorance which they themselves accuse the Aethiopians , Armenians , Greeks , Russians , &c. of ; and the Protestants also . 2. The known Ignorance of the far most of the Vulgar , in their own Church . 3. The Papists charge on the Council of Chalcedon and others , about their power . 4. The difference of the Councils of Constance and Basil , and Later . and Florence , about their Essentials . 5. The large proof brought by Dr. Field , Append. l. 3. Potter , p. 68. ( Bishop Morton Apol. ) To this , he Answers as to the last , by notorious giving up his cause , neither granting nor denying , That there hath been a Succession of Visible Professours of Christianity that were no Papists ; which he saith , is all that I prove . Answ. And what need I more ? Is not the Succession of the Church , as Christian , granted by him ? Therefore , if I prove it also Successively Christian without Popery , I know not what else the Man would have . But he saith , Arrians may say so too . Answ. Arrians are not Christians . If his meaning be , that , besides our rejecting Popery , we have some other Heresie which unchristeneth us . 1. That 's nothing against my Argument , which is but Christians Visibility ... 2. Why did he never tell us what that Heresie is ? Would he not , if he could ? And was he not concerned to do it ? 3. It 's known , that it is our rejecting Popery , that is the Heresie they charge us with ; as to any other , we defie their Accusation . And 4. If any individual person be Accused , let it be proved : Our Religion Objective is justified by themselves from Heresie , and all positive Error : For it is nothing but the Sacramental Covenant , briefly explained in the Creed , Lords Prayer , and Decalogue ; in the Essentials , and in that and the Integrals all the Canonical Scriptures : So that our proof of our Churches Visibility , as Christian , and not Papal , is all that Reason can require of us : And so this Task is done . § . 43. After these Arguments , I added some Testimonies of Historians , which shew how Melch-Canus words , de facto , are to be understood ; and how the word [ Catholick Church ] was then taken ; and how small a party the Papal Sovereignty had in the very worst times , viz. Rog. Hoveden , & Mat. Paris , in H. 2d . shew , that it was , Avitas leges consuetudinis Angliae , which the Pope here Damned , and Anathematized all that favoured and observed them . Here is Tradition , Antiquity , and the immutability of Rome . The German History , collected by Reuberus , Pistorius , Freberus , and Goldastus , fully shew , That the Papal Tyranny only kept under by a Turbulent Faction , the greater part by fraud and force , which never consented to them . The Apology of Hen. 4. the Emperour , in M. Freberus , To. 1. p. 178. saith , Behold Pope Hildebrand's Bishops , when doubtless they are Murderers of Souls and Bodies ; such as deservedly are called the Synagogue of Satan : — Yet they write , that on his and on their party , is the Holy Mother-Church . When the Catholick , that is , the Universal Church , is not in the Schism of any * Side ( or Party ) but in the Universality of the Faithful agreeing together by the Spirit of Peace and Charity — And p. 179. See how the Minister of the Devil is besides himself , and would draw us with him him into the Ditch of perdition : Who writeth , that God's Holy Priesthood is with only thirteen ( N. B. ) or few more Bishops of Hildebrand's ; and that the Priesthood of all the rest through the World are separated from the Church of God ( our Mr. W. I. would say , that only these thirteen Bishops were Univocal Christians ; ) when certainly , not only the Testimony of Gregory and Innocent , but the Judgment of all the Holy Fathers agree with that of Cyprian — that he is an Aliene , profane , an Enemy , that he cannot have God for his Father , that holds not the Unity of the Church : — And p. 181. But some that go out from us , say , and write , that they defend the party of t●…r Gregory ; not the whole , which is Christ's , which is the Catholick Church of Christ ( so the Catholick Church and the Popes Sect are distinct . ) And p. 180. But our Adversaries ( that went from us ( N. B. ) not we from them ) use thus to commend themselves — We are the Catholicks ; We are in the Unity of the Church . So the Writer calls them [ Catholicks ] and us , that hold the Faith of the Holy Fathers , that consent with all good Men , that love Peace and Brotherhood , — Us he calls Schismaticks , and Hereticks , and Excommunicate , because we resist not the King. — He addeth , out of Isidore , Etymol . l. 8. The Church is called Catholick , because it is not as the Conventicles of Hereticks , confined in certain Countries , but diffused through the whole World : Therefore they have not the Catholick Faith , that are in a part , and not in the whole , which Christ hath Redeemed , and must Reign with Christ : They that confess in the Creed , that they believe in the Holy Catholick Church , and being divided into Parties , hold not the Unity of the Church ; which Unity , Believers being of one Heart and Soul , properly belongs to the Catholick Church . So far this Apol. of the Emperour . Here you see what the Catholick Church is ; and that the Papalines were then a little Sect of thirteen , or a few more , Bishops . And now , Reader , open thine Eyes and Judge , whether the Emperour , and all the rest of the Western Churches , besides all the rest ( a greater part ) of the Christian Word , are therefore no Univocal ( but Equivocal ) Christians , because a Papal Faction , and an Equivocating Jesuite may call them so . All this the prudent Disputer thought best to Answer by silence . § . 44. I added ( because of their noise of Heresies charged on the Abassines , Syrians , Armenians , Greeks , Protestants , &c. ) 1. That they differ in greater matters , yea , de fide , than many things which they call Heresies are . 1. I repeated the differences of their Councils ( Const. and Basil against Later . and Florence , &c. ) 2. Pighius words , Hierarch . Eccl. l. 6. That these Councils went against the undoubted Faith and Judgment of the Orthodox Church it self . 3. That St. Thomas Aquinas , and other Doctors , differ from the second Council of Nice , in holding the Cross and Image of Christ to be Worshipped with Latreia . 4. I added a large Testimony of the Theological Faculty of Paris , under their Great Seal , against one Ioh. de Montesono ordinis praedic . recited in the end of Lombard ; Printed at Paris , 1557. p. 426. where they shew , that ( though Tho. Aquinas was a Canonized Saint ) we may believe that part of his Doctrine was Heretical . And the same they say of Cyprian , Ierome , Augustine , Lombard , Gratian , Anselm , Hugo de St. Victore , &c. To all this he Answereth by silence . § . 45. At last ( in vain ) I importuned him to prove the perpetual Visibility of their Papacy ( but could not prevail ) citing their Authors that make the Pope to be the Church , and the whole strength of Councils — § . 46. I added a few Miscellaneous Testimonies against their Foundations . 1. The first Council of Ephes. under Cyril , in Epist. ad Nestor . in Pet. Crab. Tom. 1. fol. 315. Petrus & Johannes aequales sunt ad alterutrum dignitatis . 2. Bishop Bromhal's citation of Comment . in Epist. synodal . Basil. p. 31. & 40. Impris . Colon , 1613. saying , The Provinces Subject to the four great Patriarchs , from the beginning did know no other Supreme , but their own Patriarchs : — And if the Pope be a Patriarch , it is by the Church , &c. 3. Cassander , Epist. 37. D. Zimenio ( p. 1132. ) saith , of Monlucius , the Bishop of Valentia ( highly praised by Thuanus , &c. ) that he said , Si sibi permittatur in his tribus capitulis , uti formâ publicarum precum de ritibus Baptismi , de formâ Eucharistae , sivae missae , Christianam formam ad normam priscae ecclesiae institutam , &c. confidere se quod ex quinquagint a millibus quos habet in sua Diocesi à praesenti discipliniae ecclesiae adversos , quadraginta millia ad Ecclesiasticum unionem , sit reducturus . Here you see what their Antiquity and Tradition is . 4. A closer passage I noted out of Cassander , Epist. 42. p. 1138. To all this I find no Reply . § . 47. In the conclusion , I Answered a late paper that I received from him , wherein he Humbly intreateth me to declare my Opinion more fully , whether any professed Hereticks , properly so called , are true parts of the Universal Visible Church of Christ , so that they compose one Universal Church with the other Visible parts . I wrote him so plain and full an Answer to this , that I shall only refer the Reader to the perusal of it , instead of any defence . To this he concludeth with such a Discourse , that would make a Man lament that such distracted stuff should be thought sufficient to deceive poor Souls . He rants at me for distinguishing : He must have had me directly Answer his Question with Yea or Nay ; and instead of Answering , ad rem , to have entred an Idle controversie with him , which of all the sorts commonly called Hereticks , are properly so called . And when no Man can resolve us , whether [ properly so called ] must be expounded by Etymology , or by the Canou ; and by what Canon ? Or by the Fathers Catalogues , and by which Fathers ( Epiphanius , Philastrius , Augustine , &c. ) or by common custom , or by the Pope ? How should ever this idle controversie of [ properly so called ] have ever come to any Resolution , unless by making himself the Judge . Yet doth the Man absurdly say to me , We are not agreed what the Universal Visible Church is : What of that ? Are we not agreed there is such a thing ? Think you or I what we will of the definition of it , 't is sufficient to give an Answer , pro or con , to my Question , whether Hereticks be true Members of the Church : And it will be time enough to explicate what you mean by the Universal Church , when your Answer is impugned — See you not again , that whatsoever you or I understand by [ Heretick properly so called ] we both agree that there are Hereticks properly so called ; and that 's enough to Answer my Question , &c. Answ. It would be irksom to Answer such a Man ( if I knew whether this came from Ignorance or Dishonesty ) were it not for the necessity of the simple . Is it not a wearisome thing to talk with a Man that must have a Disputation upon terms , whose sence we are disagreed of , and that abhorreth explication of doubtful words ? As if , when the Question is , Whether Canis , properly so called , do generate , or do give suck ? And I distinguish of Canis Coelestis & Terrestris , and of Canis Mas & foemina , and say , that only Canis Terrestris Generateth , and only Canis foemina giveth suck . He should have ranted at me for distinguishing , and said , We are agreed , that Canis there is , properly so called ; and therefore you should Answer without distinguishing . Let him that studyeth deceit , dwell in darkness , and choose Confusion , but he shall not so draw me from the Light , and cheat me into a foolish Game at Words . § . 48. But seeing he will not endure a distinction of Heresies , nor tell us how we may know which are properly so called ; I must suppose that he would have me Judge by the Ancient Catalogues or Rolls , or else by the Popes , or by the Council's nominations . Reader , I will give thee but a little touch out of the Ancient Catalogue of St. Philastrius , and Judge whether all his Hereticks are damned or unchristened . I. Of the Hereticks since the Apostles : The eleventh were those that kept not Easter at the right time , ( for which Victor would have the Asian Churches Excommunicate ; but Irenaeus as well as Socrates and Zozomene , &c. thought much otherwise of the case . ) Our Old Britains and Scots then were all out of the Church . II. His twelfth Heresie is that of the Millenaries , and so a great part of the Holy Fathers , before the Council of Nice , were Hereticks . III. His twenty seventh Heresie is , of those called Artotyritae , for Offering Bread and Cheese at the Oblation . IV. His 28 Heresie is , of the Ascodrogitae , that in the Church set New Vessels , and put New Wine into them . V. The 29th . sort of Hereticks are called Passalorinchitae , that put their Fingers on their Mouths , and imposed silence on themselves ( it's like with limitation , else they could not converse with Men. ) VI. 30. Some thought , that all Prophets ended not with Christ. VII . The 33d . is the Excalceatorum , that were for going without shooes ( like some Fryars . ) VIII . The 34th . was that of Novatus , who ( erroneously ) thought , that those that denyed Christ , or Sacrificed , or Offered to the Heathens Idols after Baptism , might be pardoned indeed by God , but not received again into the Church : Differing but one step from many Church-Canons , that deny Communion to many Sinners for many Years ; yea , till they are dying , and to some at Death . IX . The 41. Hereticks thought , the Epistle to the Hebrews was not Written by Paul , but by Barnabas , or Clement ; and the Epistle to Laodicea , by St. Luke . X. The 42. are the ( Orthodox ) Meletiani , that Communicated with the Catholicks , and some Hereticks too . XI . The 46. Heresie doubted of the diversity of the Heavens . XII . The 47. Heresie being Ignorant that there is another common Earth invisible , which is the Matrix of all things , do think that there is no Earth but this one . XIII . The 48 Heresie thought , that Water was the common Matter , and was always , and not made with the Earth . XIV . The 49 Heresie denyed , that the Soul was made before the Body , and the Body after joyned to it ; and did believe , that God's making them Male and Female first , was to be understood of the Bodily Sexes : * When it was the Soul that was made Male and Female ; and the Soul was made the sixth day , and the Body the seventh . XV. The 50 Heresie thought , that not only Grace , but also the Soul it self , was by God breathed into Man. XVI . The 51 Heresie is Origen's , that thought our Souls were first Coelestial Intellects , before they were incorporate Souls . XVII . The 52. thought , that Brutes had some Reason . XVIII . The 54. thought , Earthquakes had a Natural cause . XIX . The 55 Heresie Learned of Trismegistus , to call the Stars by the Names of Living Creatures ( as all Astronomers do . ) XX. The 56 Heresie thought , that there were not many Languages before the Confusion at Babel . XXI . The 57 Heresie thought , that the name of a [ Tongue ] proceeded first of the Jews , or of the Pagans . XXII . The 58 Heresie doubted of the Years and time of Christ. XXIII . The 59 Heresie thought ( as did many of the Ancient Fathers ) that Angels begat Giants of Women , before the Flood . XXIV . The 61 was , that Christians were after Jews and Pagans . XXV . The 62 Heresie saith , that Pagans are Born Naturally , but not Christians ; that is , that the Soul and Body of man are not daily Created by Christ , but by Nature . XXVI . The 63 Heresie said , that the number of Years from the Creation , was uncertain , and unknown . XXVII . The 64 thought , that the Names of the Days of Weeks , Sunday , Munday , ( Lunae , &c. ) were made by God first , and not by Pagans ; as being named from the Planets ( an Error no doubt . ) XXVIII . The 66 Heresie was , that Adam and Eve were blind , till God opened their Eyes to see their Nakedness . XXIX . The 67 Heresie imputeth the sins of Parents to their Children ( of which , see my Disputations of Original sin . ) XXX . The 68 Heresie was , of some troubled about the Book of Deuteronomy . XXXI . The 69 Heresie thought , that those that were Sanctified in the Womb , were Conceived in fin . XXXII . The 70 Heresie did mistake about the division of the World , thinking it was Described first by the Greeks , Egyptians , and Persians , when it was done by Noah , &c. XXXIII . The 71 Heresie thought , that there was a former Flood , under Deucalion and Pyrrha . XXXIV . The 72 Heresie saith , that Men are according to the twelve Signs in the Zodiack , not knowing that those twelve Signs of the Zodiack are divers Climates , and habitable Regions of the Earth . XXXV . It 's well that he makes it the 74 Heresle , that Christ descended into Hell , to offer Repentance there to Sinners , contrary to in Inferno quis confitebitur tibi ? XXXVI . The 75 Heresie doubted of the Nature of the Soul , thinking it was made of Fire , &c. ( as many Greek Fathers did . ) XXXVII . The 77 Heresie is , about God's hardening Pharaoh , &c. where the Dominioans are described . XXXVIII . The 79 Heresie is , that the Psalms were not made by David ( it was David that said , By the Rivers of Babylon we sate down and wept , when we remembred Sion ; and that described all the Temple-matters before the Temple was made , and the Captivity , and the Return . ) And this Heresie denyeth the equality of the Psalms , as if they were not all written and placed in the Order that the things were done ( dangerous Heresie . ) XXXIX . The 80 Heresie thought , that God's words to Cain [ Thou shalt Rule over him ] were properly to be understood , whereas the meaning was , Thou shalt Rule over-thy own Evil thoughts , that are in'thy own free-will . XL. The 81 Heresie did not well understand the Reason of God's words to Cain , giving him Life . XLI . The 82 Heresie did think , that the Stars in the Heavens had their fixed place and course , not understanding that the Stars are every Night brought out of some secret place , and set up for thier use ( as a Man lighteth up Candles for his House ) and at Morning return to their secret place again , Angels being Presidents and Disposers of them ( as Servants of the Candles in a House . ) XLII . The 83 Heresie doubted ( as some late Expositors ) of the Book of . Canticles , lest it had a carnal sence . XLIII . The 85 Heresie thought , that the Soul of Man was Naturally God's Image , before ●…ace . XLIV . The 87 Heresie thought that really four living creatures mentioned in the Prophets praised God. XLV . The 88 Heresie thought the Levitical feasts were literally to be understood , not knowing that it was the eight feasts of the Church that was meant . XLVI . The 90 Heresie preferred the Translation of Aquila before the Septuagint . XLVII . The 91 preferred a Translation of thirty men before the Septuagint . XLVIII . The 92 Heresie preferred another Translation of six men before the Septuagint . XLIX . Another Heresie preferreth the Translation of Theodotion and Symachus before the Septuagint . L. The 94th . Heresie preferre the Scriptures found in a vessel after the Captivity , before the Septuagint . LI. The 96 Heresie thought that Melchizedek had no Father or Mother , not perceiving that it was spoken of him as Learning that which his Father and Mother never taught him . LII . The 97 Heresie hold that the Prophet Zechary of Fasts , is to be properly understood , when it is but for the four Fasts of the Church , viz. Christmas , Easter , Epiphany , Pentecost . LIII . The 98 Heresie , holdeth that Solomons great number of Wives and Concubines is literally to be understood , but it is of diversity of gifts in the Church . LIV. The 100th . Heresie thought that the measuring cord in Zachary was to be understood of measuring Ierusalem literally , when it meant the choice of Believers . LV. The 101 Heresie not understanding the mystical sence of the Cherubim and Seraphim in Isaiah , are troubled about it and in doubt : ( which mystical sence is mystically there opened . LVI . The last Heresie think that one of the Cherubims came to Isaiah , and with a coal touched his Lips , and that it was an Angel or Animal with fire ; when it is two Testaments , and the fire is Gods Grace . Reader , wouldst thou have yet more unchristened and damned than all these ? I will not go over all Epiphanius his catalogue lest I tire thee . Dost thou not perceive in this heretieating spirit , a great deal of mans Pride and Ignorance ( that I say not fury ) and of Gods curse , and Satans triumph ? § . 49. But all this is but jesting in comparison of the confusion and bloody stir that Councils and their adherents made about Heresie ; condemning and cursing one another . The History of which is one of the greatest scandals on the Christian Religion that everbefell it since its Being . I purpose , if God enable me , to write more seasonably of this subject ; and not to drown it in such a rambling dispute as with this man. In the mean time if you get a book of David De rodons de supposito , proving Nestorius Orthodox , and Cyril , and the first Council of Ephesus as well as the 2d . to be Hereticks , even Eutychians , with Celestine and many other Popes and Ancients , it will shew you that which is not commonly observed : though for my part I am perswaded that as Nestorius ( by the will of one woman ) was wronged ( but Gods judgment was just for his over fierceness against others as Hereticks ) so Cyril , Eutychus , Dioscorus , ( all of a mind no doubt ) on one side , and the Orthodox on the other ; did all three Parties ( for the generality of them ) differ but in second notions and words , for want of skill to discuss ambiguity , or of patience and impartiality to hear each others explications . § . 50. And if yet Hereticks are all out of the Church , think what a case the Church is in when the Abassines , Copti's , Arminians , Syrlans , ( Iacobites , Nestorians , Eutychians , ) and the Greeks and Protestants are Hereticated by the Papists ; and the Papists curst and excommunicated by the Greeks and others : and Marcellinus , Honorius , Liberius , and many other Popes Hereticated by Fathers , or Councils ; yea Iohn 23 , Eugenius 4th . and others condemned as Hereticks of the most odious sort by Councils , and the Pope being an Essential part of the Church , the Church consequently hereticated or damned with them : and so all this mans arguments are to prove that the Popes and their party were none of the Church as being properly called hereticks , if Councils know who are properly so called . § . 51. But if yet this be not enough by that time , you have considered how many Councils have hereticated one another , and so the Church Hereticated the Church , you will think that they left no Church on Earth . § . 52. But if you go yet further and mark how the Councils at Lateran and Trent have hereticated all that believe their own or other mens sences ( that bread is bread and wine is wine , ) and judged such to extermination or flames , you may doubt whether they have not hereticated and damned Man as Man , making Humanity and Sense a Heresie . § . 53. In all this I advise all to be truly tender of every truth of God , and enemies to all Error ; but , Reader , if thou discernest not , that when Satan could not turn all men from practical Faith and Holiness , by worldly interest and fleshy lusts ; how he made it his last game to make Religion a game at words , or rather a word-warre , or a Logomachie , and to destroy the Love of God and Man , the life of Christianity and Concord , Peace and Humanity it self , by pretense of Orthodoxness and Truth , and contending for the Faith : and how the Proud , and Worldly , and Ignorant part of the Clergy , become the Plague and Firebrands of the Church , by pretending zeal against Heresies and Errors ; and if thy Soul lament not the doleful mischiefs which the Church hath by this plague endured , thou seest not with my Eyes , nor feelest with my Heart : which I speak with freedom and constrained grief , while I doubt not but these firebrands that have Hereticated Papias , Iustin , Irenaeus , Clem. Alexand. Origene , Dionys. Alexand. Tertullian , Cyprian , Tatianus , Athenagoras , Lactantius , Chrysostom , Eusebius , Socrates , Sozomene , Ruffinus , Cassianus , Hillary Pictav . Hillary Are●…at . and abundance more such , will Hereticate me also , were it but for lamenting their rage . § . 54. But our Champion W. I. ( having vented his Spleen on the by , about ministers favouring of Rebels , with some false insinuations as if he thought we had never read the Councils , and Epistles , and Warres , nor all the expresse citations of the Papists Doctrine of King-killing gathered in folio by Hen. Fowlis of Pop. Treasons ) cometh to prove by argument that [ Hereticks properly so called are no members of the Church . ] Before I answer them , I intreat him to tell me , 1. Whether then those many Papists Doctors are members of the Church that maintain the contrary . 2. Whether their Church be well agreed in it self . 3. Why the Baptism of Hereticks ( that change not the form ) is counted valid , and Cyprian accounted Erroneous for denying it ? Yea and the ordination of Hereticks too . But yet I grant him that Hereticks are out of the Church that knowingly deny any Essential part of Christianity . § . 55. His first Argument is from Tit. 3. 10 , 11. Answ. 1. Paul bid , 2 Thess. 3. avoid disorderly walkers , and yet to admonish them as brethren . 2. But I grant it of such Hereticks as Paul there speakes of ; make him the judge of your [ properly so called ] and we shall agree . Yea I grant it of such as Iohn 23. Eugenius 4th . and many other Popes have been ; and I doubt whether I may not grant it you of a true knowing Papist as such . § . 56. His 2d . Argument is from 1 Iohn 2. 19 , They went out from us , &c. Answ. 1. But it 's said they were not of us . 2. Some go out from particular concordant Churches , that go not from the whole Church . 3. But we grant it , for all that , of such proper Hereticks as St. Iohn mentioneth . Call no other Hereticks and we agree with you . § . 57. His next Argument is from 2 Iohn v. 9 , 10 , 11. Answ. Of such also we never deny it , but all that speak against any less necessary point of Scripture or Tradition , be not the denyers of Christianity , called the doctrin of Christ. If they be , all men living are like to be Hereticks , but specially the Papists . § . 58. Next he referreth me to their dispute against Dr. Gunning and Dr. Peirson called Schism unmasked ; which I have perused to little purpose . And then he citeth divers Fathers , which I have not the vanity to answer to a man that will not first agree what we mean by Hereticks , it being true of many so called by the Fathers , and false of others ; even such as Philastrius hath named . I believe the Novatians erred , and yet as farre as I can discern by history , if serious piety be the way to heaven , I think it probable that proportionably to their different numbers , there are more of the Novatians in heaven than of their adversaries . § . 59. He repeateth his Reason , because all Hereticks evacuate the formal object of Faith. Answ. 1. I dare say I have sufficiently answered that . 2. I grant that none is a Christian that doth not believe that God cannot lie , and that his word is all true . § . 60. But he saith , Though Hereticks perversely perswade and delude themselves , that they assert for the infallible authority of God to such Articles as they believe , yet they attribute not an infallible authority to God ; because what they Believe not , is sufficiently proposed . Answ. If this be not fully answered , let it prevail . Must the Christian world be Hereticated by such sottish stuff as this . 1. When will he make me know how his sufficient proposal may be discerned . 2. And how the Hereticaters can know the sufficiency of the proposals to others ? Even many Kingdoms of men that they never saw : seeing variety of Capacities , Opportunities , Educations , Temptations , &c. maketh that insufficient to one that is sufficient to another . 3. When will he prove that the plainest Scripture is no sufficient proposal , till the credit of the Papall Clergy make it so : and yet that the obscure volumnes of militant Councils ( that curse one another ) are sufficient proposals . 4. Or that the word of a Jesuite is a sufficient notice to us , what is in the Councils ? or what is their sence . 5. Or who shall expound dark Councils to us , when there are no Councils in our age in Being . 6. How shall we know that a culpable neglect of a sufficient proposal ( through prejudice or temptation ) may never stand with Faith ? If so , is there any man living that is not an Infidel or Heretick ? I challenge any man living to dare to make good , that he never erred or doth erre in any point revealed in Scripture or Councils , against sufficient proposal ( taking [ sufficiency ] as it is commonly in the controversie of [ sufficient Grace ] . What if a man through culpable negligence , know not how many years it was from Adam to the flood , or know not who was the Father of Arphaxad , &c. when these are sufficiently proposed ? Doth this prove that he believeth not Gods Veracity ? As if there were no other sin that could frustrate any one sufficient proposal . 7. But it is the fate of rash condemners to condemn themselves most notoriously ; If the plain words of Scripture , in the institution of the Cup in the Eucharist , against praying in an unknown tongue , &c. If the sensible evidence of Bread and Wine to all sound Senses that are neer , be not a sufficient proposal , what is ? Surely not such self-contradicting disputes as this of W. I. and others like him ; nor the Cant of [ the Church and all the world ] by a partial Sect : but if Scripture , the Tradition and Judgment of the most of Christians , Reason and Sense , can make up a sufficient proposal ; out of their own mouths are these men condemned as Hereticks , to be avoided by all good Christians . But I have more Charity for some of them , then herein they exercise to themselves , ( or others . ) And in particular I will be so far from partiality , as to profess that though Pope Honorius was an anathematized Heretick in the judgment of the 6th . and other General Councils , and of his Successors Popes , I am not one of those that take him really for such , in W. I's . sence ; as held a Doctrine that did unchristen him . Nay I take his Epistles to Sergius read in the 6th . General Council , to be two of the honestest peaceable Epistles that I have read from a Pope , except some of Leo's , and few more ; and I think that his counsel for to avoid contention , to forbear both the name of [ two operations ] and of [ one operation ] and leave it to Grammarians , and hold to plain Scripture-words , was honest counsel . And the hereticating of him and the rest by that Council increaseth not my veneration , but my great dislike of Hereticating Councils and the factions of the Bishops : it was not long after ( under the Emperour Philipicus ) when another General Council so great , as it 's said it consisted of Innumerable Bishops at Constantinople , revoked , undid , and destroyed all this that was done against Honorius and the Monothelites at the said 6th . Council ; so ordinarily did General Councils condemn each other . But what I say in excuse of Honorius , I must say also in excuse of Sergius Constant. For he said but the same that Honorius did , viz. that he would have had the controversie , and the names of [ Two ] or [ One ] Operation laid by ; and yet Binnius can call Sergius a lying Heretick , while he ( with others ) excuseth Honorius for the same . And on this occasion , I will conclude with a note out of the two Epistles of Cyrus to Sergius , read in the same 6th . General Council ; which hath this title : Deo honorabili me●… Domino benigno , Principi Pastorum , Patri Patrum , Universali Patriarchae Sergio à Cyro humil●… vestro . I would know whether the Pope can shew that ever any one of his Predecessors had higher titles given him than these . And if these prove not an universal Sovereignty of the Patriarch of Constantinople , whether the like or less will prove it for Rome ? if you say that it was but an Heretick that gave it him : I answer 1. That 's nothing to the matter in hand . 2. He was but such a harmless Heretick as Honorius . 3. The Council reprehended not the title . Many such instances might be given of as high titles given to Jerusalem , Alexandria , Antioch , Constantinople , as Rome pretendeth for the proof of its Universal-church-monarchy . And if it prove no such power in others , it proveth it not in the Pope . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A27069-e170 ☞ Notes for div A27069-e6130 Sect. 1. Sect. 2 : Sect. 3. Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 11. Sect. 12. Sect. 13. Sect. 14. Sect. 15. Sect. 16. Sect. 17. Sect. 18. Sect. 19. Sect. 20. Sect. 21. Sect. 22. ☞ Sect. 23. Sect. 〈◊〉 . Sect. 25. Sect. 26. Sect. 27. Sect. 28. Sect. 2. * See them answered by Ioh. Rossens . ( Bishop Bucke●…idge . ) Sect. 3. Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. So all that take not every Priest for a lawful superior , & to contradict him , though about a word , must be burned & damned . Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 10. ☞ ☞ Sect. 11. Sect. 12. Sect. 13. Sect. 14. Sect. 1. * Yet he maintaineth himself that Hereticks are no Christians but equivocally . Baronius , Binnius , Bellarmine , Genebrard , your greatest flatterers confess it , and much more . Who that ever read the Councils and Church-history doubted of it ? see then the impudency of men pretending to lay their cause on tradition , and history . I said that the charge of Simony made many of them uncapable ; to which he giveth no answer , for their most flattering Historians assert it , and lament it . Sect. 2. Sect. 3. ☞ Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 1 ▪ Sect. 2. ☞ Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. * Or rather the Emperour : For some Bishops put in several names , and the Emperour chose Nectarius an unbaptized man and so no Christian in the Churches judgment . Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 11. Sect. 12. Sect. 13. Sect. 14. Sect. 1●… Sect. 2. Sect. 3. This se●…ms to confess that your people have no ●…ivine faith for our belief of a Priest , saying , This book is canonical , is but humane . Sect. 4. ☞ Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 11. Sect. 12. Sect. 13. Sect. 14. Notes for div A27069-e35990 Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Vid. Liber . Breviar . Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. And in Rev. 21. the new Jerusalem was built on the twelve Apostles as twelve precious stones . Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Vid. S. Clar. ubi sup . Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Sect. 4. Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Smiglecii Log. p. 1. disp . 5●… qu. 9. pag. 201. Resp. Illam definitionem Accidentis ( potest abesse , &c. ) non intelligi de separatione reali accidentis ( etiam quinti praedicabilis ) a subjecto , sed de separatione per intellectum . Quare potest esse accidens realiter inseparabile a subjecto , & necessario convenire subjecto , & tamen per intellectum erit separabile , & poterit abesse a subjecto salva subjecti essentia , &c. vid. caetera . Sect. 10. Sect. 11. The way by which men come to believe . Sect. 13. Sect. 14. Sect. 15. Sect. 16. Sect. 17. Of Christ as the Head , whether visible , and whether a more visible Head be necessary . Sect. 1. Of our departure from the Romans possessed power . Sect. 3. Sect. 2. More of the visibility of Christ. Whether Pastors are Essential parts of the Church Universal . Sect. 5. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 11. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 3. Sect. 6. Sect. 7. Sect. 8. Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 11. Sect. 12. Sect. 13. Sect. 4. Sect. 16. Sect. 17. Sect. 1●… . Sect. 1●… . Sect. 23. Sect. 24. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Sect. 〈◊〉 . Sect. 9. Sect. 10. Sect. 11. Sect. 1. Sect. 2. Did not the Arrian Goths live out of the Empire in Power ? * The Translater of Nicephorus at the story of Faelix & Acacius's damning each other , addeth these useful citations in the Margin : In Ecclesiasticis censoriis & excommunicationibus , causa imprimis valet , Origen . Cum aliquis exit à veritate , à timore De●… , à fide , à Charitate , exit de castris ecclesi●… , etiamsi per Episcopi vocem minim●… abjiciatur ; sicuti è contrario aliquis non recto judicio soràs mittitur : Sed si ante non exivit , id est si non egerit ut mereretur exire , nihil laeditur : Interdum n. qui ●…orà mittitur , intus est : Et qui foris est , intus videtur retineri . 24 Qu. 3. August . Custodi intus innocentiam tuam , ubi nemo opprimit causam tuam ; praevalebit in te falsum testimonium , sed apud homines ; non apud Deum , ubi causa dicenda est : Quando Deus erit Iudex alius testis quàm Conscientia tua non erit : Inter justum judicem & Conscientiam tuam , noli timere nisi causam tuam . 11. q. 3. Quid obest homini quod ex illa tabula vult eum delere humana ignorantia , si de libro viventium non deleat iniqua Conscientia . August . ib. If a just Law should say , let e. g. an Arrian be anathematized , a man must be lawfully convict , and judged an Arrian , and personally sentenced : when it is said , Let such be excommunicated ipso facto vel ipso : jure , the ●…ct must be proved , and a declaratory sentence is necessary to the subject's obligation , to avoid such . † The Pragmatic . Ferrariensis saith , Imperatores conferrebant omnia beneficia per universum orbem . Is it any doubt what the orbis universus was ? * Of the Emperor Arcadius acts for Gothes and Scythians . See Theodoret . Hist. l. 5. 〈◊〉 . 30. 31. And Ni●…horus ●…ith li. ●…4 . c. 56. Theodosii ●…unioris 19. annum imperantis permissu , in sinitimâ Thraciae regione habitarunt . per 50 annos . And li. 11. c. 48. when the Hunns drove the Gothes ●…ut of ●…heir Country , Valens ●…ave ●…em a place in ●…ract . * Myraeus tells you the nine Bishops under Scythopolis , vulgo Bethsan , Urbs in Iudeae & Galileae confinibus , ad Iordanem fluvium , nobilis exstitit , saith he , p. 23. † Niceph. l. 16. c. 43. Arabes servitutes conditiones à Romanis accepisse . ‖ Remember that Historians ( Socrates , Zozomene , Niceph , &c tell us , that the Arabians had Bishops in the Villages , and therefore great numbers . ¶ See in Myraei Natiti . Epis. the nineteen Bishops under Bostra , pag. 26. * Persidis Regem is not in ●…rah . Notes for div A27069-e73340 † Of which see also Derod●…n de supposit●… . Salvian . de Gubern . l. 3. p. 62. si scire vis quid tenendum sit , habes literas sacras . Perfecta ratio est hoc tenere quod legeris . † It is Empire that they claim over Emperors . Theodorick and his Successors were willing that Rome , when it was their regal seat , should claim the greatest power over the Churches of other Princes Dominious . † And yet will prove the Canons at Trent . and the Council void because the Pope did not call it or preside in it , but Callinicus of Constantinople . * Where was it then ? when for 40 Years there was nothing but Schism among various Popes at once . These Men that are so quick in damning and avoiding Men , as Hereticks , for a word not understood , can keep Communion with wickedness freely . Pope Gregory 2d . wrote to Boniface , who asked him , whether he should eat and drink with Debauched Priests and Bishops , that he should Admonish them to amend ; but if they would not , yet not avoid Familiarity with them , it being likelier to reclaim them . And ordinarily Drunkards were endured . Read the Epistles of Pope Zachary to Boniface , seconding Gregory's , bidding him not avoid wicked Livers , that are Orthodox , but all Hereticks : And one Heresie was holding that there are Antipodes . * So Iacob Behmen . Council . Roman . sub Zacha. an . 743. anathematizeth Clerk or Monk that presumeth , comam laxare , to wear long hair . Pope Zachary tells Boniface ( Bin. To. 3. p. 209. ) How dangerous it is and bad for Christians to eat Jayes , and Rooks , and Badgers , and Hares , and Wood-horses . And he tells him when Lard must be eaten , viz. not before its dryed in the smoak or boiled on the fire : or if it be eaten unboiled , it must not be till after Easter . Also how there must be three great lamps , set in a secret place of the Church after the similitude of the Tabernacle , which must be kept burning , and others at Baptisms lighted by them . 
A12062	----	The triall of the protestant priuate spirit VVherein their doctrine, making the sayd spirit the sole ground & meanes of their beliefe, is confuted. By authority of Holy Scripture. Testimonies of auncient fathers. Euidence of reason, drawne from the grounds of faith. Absurdity of consequences following vpon it, against all faith, religion, and reason. The second part, which is doctrinall. Written by I.S. of the Society of Iesus. Sharpe, James, 1577?-1630. 1630 Approx. 1120 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 208 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2007-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A12062 STC 22370 ESTC S117207 99852422 99852422 17745 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Authority -- Religious aspects -- Early works to 1800. 2006-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-08 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2006-08 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE TRIALL OF THE PROTESTANT PRIVATE SPIRIT . VVHEREIN Their Doctrine , making the sayd Spirit the sole ground & meanes of their Beliefe , is confuted . By Authority of Holy Scripture . Testimonies of auncient Fathers . Euidence of Reason , drawne from the Grounds of Faith. Absurdity of consequences following vpon it , against all Faith , Religion , and Reason . The Second Part , which is Doctrinall . WRITTEN By I. S. of the Society of IESVS . Ezech. 23. vers . 3. Vae Prophetis insipientibus , qui sequuntur Spiritum suum , & nihil vident . Woe to the foolish Prophets , who follow their owne Spirit , and see nothing . Permissu Superiorum . M.DC.XXX . Tertullian . de praescript . cap. 4. Qui lupi rapaces nisi sensus & Spiritus subdoli , ad infestandum gregem intrinsecùs delitescentes ? Who are rauenous wolues , but deceitfull Spirits and senses , lying close to molest the flocke of Christ ? Caluin . in 1. Ioan. 41. Multi falsi doctores titulum Spiritus mentiuntur . Insurgunt multi fanatici qui se temerè iactant Spiritu Dei praeditos esse . Loquuntur priuato suo nomine , prodeunt priuato suo nomine , proferumt ex proprio sensu . Many false Doctours do feigne the title of the Spirit . Many mad men do rashly boast that they haue the spirit of God. They speake in their owne name , they go out in their owne name , and they vtter what they say in their owne name . TO THE CHRISTIAN READER . COVRTEOVS READER , This second Part of the Protestant Priuate Spirit , like a nevv-borne Infant , is at length , after long trauaile , come to light . I may iustly terme it an Agrippa , because it vvas hardly brought forth . It caused many great , and long gripings in the Mothers vvombe , in the Conception and Framing , but passed difficulties , both greater and longer , in the Byrth & Printing ( so hard it is for an Israelite among the Aegyptians to conceaue & beare such Infants . ) It vvas in danger to haue byn stifled vnder Midvviues hands : one vvas long sought for , hardly obteyned , and farre fetched ; and yet as a stranger , not so skillfull , but that many errours are committed . If therefore it come to thy vievv maimed & imperfect , blame not the Authour , excuse the Printer . Thou vvilt meruaile hovv this second Part gets birth and breath , and comes to light before the first . The reason is this : like to tvvo Tvvins they strugled in the birth , and passing the hands of diuers Midvviues , this fell to the lott of one more ready and skillfull , and so got the precedence of Birth-right ; vvhich yet in part vvas its due , as being first formed & composed , and that before the other vvas intended . For supposing the Aduersary as common & knovvne , to vvit the Priuate Spirit , vvithout discussing the quarrell , it assaulted him at the first , and so aymed to vvound Heresy in the head . But vvherfore then is this called the second , the other the first Part ? Because the matter or subiect so requires , this being a Confutation of the Priuate Spirit , the ground of all Protestancy ; the other a Proofe , or declaration , that the same Spirit is such a Ground to the Protestāts : vvhich at the first supposed , vvas aftervvard thought fit to be at large proued ; that therby it may appeare , that this Priuate Spirit is by the sayd Protestant Doctrine , made not only a Ground , but a sole and vvhole Ground of their Fayth and Religion ; yea that all other true Grounds are for that end by them neglected , and reiected . Which proofe of being a Ground ( the order of Doctrine so requiring ) because it is precedent to the reproofe of the same ; there fore the other Part , though later composed and diuulged , claimes the title of the first & this , of the second Part. In the meane time , if this , thus hardly brought forth , and thus svvadled in the cloutes of many imperfections both of pen and print , may giue thee Content ; & thy Content giue Vente ; and the Vente help on to the birth of the other ; my hope shal be , that as this Part may satisfy thee in the disproofe of this supposed false Ground : so the other vvill more satisfy , first in the proofe of the true Grounds assigned by Catholikes ; next in the contempt of the same Grounds vsed by Protestants , and that for the establishing of their false Ground , vvhich in the first Part is fully performed . Of vvhich if eyther the one , or both may ground , or cōfirme thee in the Truth & true Grounds of Truth ; this thy good shal be the fruite , I desire , of my paynes ; and my paynes shall thinke themselues , at thy hands , sufficiently requited , by thy good prayers , vvhich I desyre for my selfe , and further endeauours ; all to the Honour of God , and good of his holy Church . THE CONTENTS Of the Chapters , Sections , and Subdiuisions of this second Part of the Priuate Spirit , as it is Doctrinall , and confuted . CHAP. I. CERTAINE Considerations of the Meanes of Fayth , necessary for the vnderstanding of this Protestant Priuate Spirit . Sect. 1. Of six meanes , and helps to attaine Fayth . Sect. 2. Of the order and necessity of these meanes . Sect. 3. How the Protestants want all these 6. meanes of faith . Sect. 4. How the Catholikes and Protestants differ in these six meanes ; and how the Protestants make their Priuate Spirit the only meanes for all . CHAP. II. THE Priuate spirits interpretation of Scripture , deciding of Controuersies , and iudging of Fayth , confuted by holy Scripture . Sect. 1. Out of the 1. S. Iohn 4.1 . S. Paul. 1. Tim. 4.11 . Act. 20.30 . 2. Pet. 2. describing this Spirit . Sect. 2. Out of 2. Pet 1.20 . making the same spirit authour , and interpreter of Scripture . Sect. 3. Out of 1. Cor. 12.8 . prouing the interpretation of Scripture to be a gift gratis giuē , not cōmon to al faithfull . Sect. 4. Out of Ezech. 13. describing in false Prophets this Priuate Spirit , with the effects and punishment of it . Sect. 5. Out of Iob 32. declaring in Eliu his friends spirit , the manner of proceeding of this Priuate spirit . Sect. 6. Out of Tit. 3.10 . shewing the Spirit of an Hereticke . Sect. 7. Out of diuers places of Scripture condemning the relying vpon our owne iudgment . CHAP. III. THE Priuate Spirits interpreting of holy Scripture , and iudging of Mysteries of Faith , and Controuersies , confuted by the testimony of auncient Fathers . CHAP. IV. THE Priuate Spirits interpreting of Scripture , and iudging of Controuersies , confuted by reasons drawn from the difficulty of discerning of Spirits . Sect. 1. Of the diuersity of Spirits . Sect. 2. Of the difficulty to discerne these Spirits . Sect. 3. Of the difficulty and vncertainty of the rules of discerning spirits . Sect. 4. Of the subtilty of Sathan , in deceiuing by the similitude of spirits . Sect. 5. The difficulty to discerne spirits , proued by Scripture . CHAP. V. THE Priuate Spirits authority to interprete Scripture , and iudge of Controuersies , confuted by the true infallible authority , and meanes of interpreting scripture . Sect. 1. What interpretation , authority , and meanes are necessary , and infallible for the sense of Scripture . Subd . 1. What interpretation of scripture is necessary . 2. Who haue authority to make this interpretation . 3. What meanes are to be vsed by these interpreters , to make this interpretation : and of 4. rules of infallible interpreting of Scripture . Sect. 2. That the priuate Spirit cannot haue this infallible authority , and be this infallible meanes , is proued . Subd . 1. By reasons drawne from the nature of the Holy Scripture , which is to be expounded . 2. By reasons drawne from the priuate spirit , which should expound it . CHAP. VI. THE Priuate Spirits authority to iudge of Controuersies of fayth , confuted by reasons drawne from the nature of a Iudge of Fayth . Sect. 1. The properties of a Iudge of Fayth . Sect. 2. The whole body of the Church cannot be this Iudge . Sect. 3. Secular Princes cannot be this Iudge . Sect. 4. Lay-people cannot be this Iudge . Sect. 5. The Scripture cannot be this Iudge . Sect. 6. Bishops , and Prelates of the true Church , are this Iudge . Sect. 7. The priuate spirit cannot be this Iudge . CHAP. VII . THE priuate spirits authority to iudge of Controuersies of faith , confuted by reasons drawne from the nature and certainty of Fayth . Sect. 1. The properties of Fayth , with the priuate spirits māner of proceeding . Sect. 2. The priuate Spirit cannot be a meanes of Vnity in fayth . Sect. 3. Nor a meanes of the certainty of Fayth . Sect. 4. Nor a meanes of the integrity and perfection of faith . Sect. 5. Nor a meanes of fayth , which is got by hearing . Sect. 6. Nor a meanes of Fayth which requires credible testimonies . Sect. 7. Nor a meanes of Fayth which obligeth all to belieue , & accept of it . CHAP. VIII . THE priuate spirits authority to iudge of Fayth , confuted by circular absurdities following vpō it , against Fayth . Sect. 1. Of the nature of a Circle , & the difference of Circles . Sect. 2. The Catholikes cleared from the obiected Circle agaynst their doctrine . Sect. 3. The Protestants diuers manners of Circles . Subd . 1. Their Circle betweene the scripture , & the spirit . 2. Between the spirit , and Fayth . 3. Between election , & vnderstanding of scripture . 4. Between the Spirit of euery priuate man , & of a generall Councell . CHAP. IX . THE priuate Spirits Authority to iudge of Controuersies of Fayth , confuted by doctrinall absurdities following vpon it , against Fayth . Sect. 1. Idolatry and heresy compared : and of 4. heads , and origens of all late Heresies , proceeding of the priuate Spirit . Sect. 2. Of absurdities which follow vpon the 1. head , Of contempt of all Church-authority , and relying vpon the priuate Spirit . Sect. 3. Of absurdities which follow vpon the 2. head , Of sole Fayth . Subdiu . 1. Agaynst man , making him as iust , and more certaine of saluation , then Christ. 2. Agaynst Fayth , making it false , contradictory , sinnefull , rash , presumptuous , and preiudicious to charity &c. 3. Against Christ , to whome it is iniurious , as a Redeemer , Phisitian , Lawgiuer , Iudge , Priest : and makes him ignorant , sinnefull , & damned for the tyme. Sect. 4. Of absurdities which follow vpon the 3. head , that is , Of Concupiscence being originall sinne . Subdiu . 1. Eight diuers absurdities which follow vpon it . 2. The difference between a iust Catholicke , and Protestant . Sect. 5. Of absurdities which follow vpon the 4. head , that is , Of absolute predestination to damnation . Subdiu . 1. Absurdities against man , leading to carelesnesse , despayre of saluation , and inability to be saued . 2. Absurdities against God , making him the Authour of sinne . 3. A Sinner . 4. The only Sinner . 5. A Lyer , and dissembler . 6. A Tyrant most cruell . 7. A Deuill . 8. Obseruations vpon the former doctrine . Sect. 6. Of absurdities which follow against Fayth , and the Creed . Subdiu . 1. In generall , destroying all Fayth . 2. In particular , against all the 12. articles of the Creed . Sect. 7. Of absurdities agaynst Prayer , and the Pater Noster . Subdiu . 1. In generall , making all prayer needlesse , or hopelesse . 2. In particular , opposing all the 7. petitions of the Pater Noster . Sect. 8. Of absurdities against the obseruation of all lawes , and chiefly the Ten Commaundements . Subdiu . 1 In generall , how all lawes are made impossible , and not obliging . 2. In particular , how many wayes the Protestant dostrine encourageth to the breach of all lawes , and to all lewdenesse of life . 3. To what vices in particular the same leads , chiefly to Slouth , Lust , Cruelty , and Pride . 4. Bad life . 1. In the common people . 2. In the Ministers . 3. In the first reformers of protestāt Religiō , confessed to be an effect of this doctrine . Sect. 9. The conclusion , comparing the priuate spirits doctrine with the Catholike Churches doctrine ; whether leads to the greater honour of God. CHAP. X. THE Protestants Obiections and proofes , taken out of Scripture , for the defence of their priuate Spirits authority to interprete Scripture , and iudge of Controuersie , are proposed , and answered . Sect. 1. Of certaine obseruations profitable for the solution of obiections . Sect. 2. The obiections for the priuate Spirits authority , answered . Sect. 3. More obiections proposed , and answered . CERTAINE CONSIDERATIONS OF SIX MEANES NECESSARY TO ATTAINE FAITH , All wanting in the Protestants , and suppressed by their doctrine of the Priuate Spirit . CHAP. I. Of these six meanes , which they be . SECT . 1. THOVGH , according to S. Hierome , Haereses ad originem reuocare , refut are est : To reduce heresies to their origen , is to refute them , that is , to shew not only the tyme when they did begin , but also the head , or foūtaine from whence they did spring , is a sufficient proofe , both of their nouelty and falsity ; & so to haue shewed the Priuate Spirit to haue beene the origen , & Mother which hath begot all late heresyes , which as a brood of such a Damme , haue descended from her ( which in the first Part is fully performed ) is a sufficient proofe that the same heresyes are degenerate from all diuine Verity , and are as so many poisoned streames descended from an infected fountaine . And though all Sect-maisters , who disclaime & delude the vsual receaued grounds of Christian religiō , such as are , Scripture , Tradition , Church , Councels , Sea Apostolike , and Fathers , and appeale euery man to his owne Priuate Spirit , do make this their Spirit the origē of their fayth ( which also in the former part is , I hope sufficiently and copiously conuinced , that the chiefe and prime Protestants before cited , haue done ) might suffice to conuince their doctrine of falsity , for that it is descended frō a Mother of such impiety : Though ( I say ) this , that hath beene thus proued , might be a sufficient motiue to breed a dislike of this Priuate Spirit , and of the doctrine springing from it ; yet because , that out of it all sorts and sects of heresyes , especially lately engendred , haue issued as so many vipers out of a dunghill : and because the confutation of it is the confutation of all heresies in their origen , and as it were a brusing of all late nouell opinions in the head , or a strangling of them togeather wiih their Mother in her wombe , ( for to proue the fountaine to be poisoned , is to proue the streame to be infected , and to conuince the Mother of adultery , is to proue the child liable to basta●dy ; ) it is a worke profitable , and ( I hope ) worth the labour to descend into a particuler confutation of this Priuate Spirit , and by speciall and seuerall kindes of arguments ( such as are the authority of holy Scripture , the testimonies of auncient Fathers , the principles of holy Fayth , the euidency of solid reason , & the absurdities both doctrinall and practicall that ensue vpon it , and the fruits and effects which haue beene produced by it ) to lay open the deformity , falsity , and impiety of this Priuate spirit , and to shew the inconueniences , absurdities , and blasphemies which ensue vpon the making it the whole ground of Fayth , the sole interpreter of Scripture , and the only iudge of all controuersies of Faith & Religion , which ( as is before in the former part shewed ) all Protestants haue done , and yet do . For the better performance of which vndertaken taske , and the more , both orderly to proceed , and more clearely to vnderstand the same , as in the former part we proued six groundes of Christian and Catholike fayth , vpon which it is built ; and shewed , that as the Catholikes do imbrace them all , the Protestants do reiect and delude them all : so it will not be amisse in this part , first ( before we enter the particuler confutation ) to propose to the iudicious Readers consideratiō , also six helps or meanes , by which ordinarily God vseth to worke true & Catholicke fayth , in the hart of euery true beleeuer ; and to shew that , as they are all , and euery one of them concurring to the true fayth of euery Catholik , so they are all wanting to all sortes of Protestants , and to their faith and religion , whereby both Catholikes & Protestants may discerne , as well by what kind of causes and meanes true Fayth is produced , as vpon how solid a groūd and foundation the same is builded ; and so al may the better be enabled to iudge whether of the two Religions , that is , Catholike or Protestant , be not only more solidly groūded , but also more diuinely produced . For which we may note , that as these six Meanes or helpes are necessary to Fayth , so three of them are necessary in respect of the Obiect belieued , and three in respect of the Subiect belieuing . In respect of the Obiect , the first is the Materiall obiect , or articles to be belieued , which as they are supernatural , and aboue the capacity of our vnderstanding , so are they to reason not euident and cleare , but obscure , both in their verity that they are true , and in their reuelation , that they are reuealed by God , and therefore are by fayth , for the authority of God affirming , belieued . And these are the B. Trinity , the Incarnation , Resurrection , Transubstantiation , Iustification , Glorification , and the rest which we belieue . The second meane is the Formall Obiect , or motiue why we belieue , which is the prime verity , reuelation , or testimony of God , who , as he hath reuealed all mysteries that we are to belieue , and as we are to belieue them , because God hath reuealed them ; so did he at the first reueale them all to the Prophets , and Apostles , from whome we are to receaue by Scripture , or Tradition all reuelations of all mysteries of Fayth , whatsoeuer are by any , till the worlds end , belieued , without expectance of new reuelations , by any new spirit ; for so did Christ himselfe make knowne to the Apostles , (a) All which he heard of his Father &c. And therupon the Apostles (b) are cōmanded to preach the Ghospell to all creaturs . And all faithfull are sayd (c) to be built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , that is , vpon the reuelations made by Christ vnto them , and by them deliuered by (d) Scripture , or tradition to vs. The third Meane is the Proponent cause , or condition necessarily required to our beliefe , which , as an infallible rule and iudge , is immediatly to propose to vs the verity , & certainty , both of the articles reuealed , and of the reuelation of them ; for as the articles are aboue our capacity , and the reuelation may to vs be doubtfull , and both are obscure ; and as the Scripture , and Tradition are not only hard & obscure , but also mute , and vnable either to explicate themselues , or expresse to vs the resolution of al doubts which may arise : therefore some Iudge , or Proponent cause in respect of vs , is necessary , which must be not only infallible , and vniuersall in it selfe , and able without errour to satisfy all doubts , but also knowne and visible vnto vs , that by it we may know the verity of all , both articles , and reuelation , as also Scripture , & Tradition : which proponent cause except God had prouided and left vs , he had left vs destitute of a necessary meanes to fayth , which is to deliuer and declare to vs what God hath reuealed , and so had not prouided vs sufficient helps to attaine to the certainty of beliefe : And this is the authority of the Church of God , or the Spouse of Christ , as afterwards shall be proued . And thus , are necessary in respect of the obiect , 1. the Materiall obiect , what we belieue . 2. the Formal obiect , why we belieue , 3. the Proponent cause , to assure vs of the verity both of what , & why we belieue . In respect of the subiect , who belieues , are also necessary other three helpes : First , a Speculatiue iudgement of the Vnderstanding , grounded vpon credible Testimonyes and probable reasons of perswasions , which doe make appeare euident to mans natural iudgmēt , that this faith is credible , and worthy of beliefe , and prudently may be accepted as more credible , & more worthy of beliefe , then any other of Pagans , Iewes , or Heretikes whatsoeuer , though it be not as yet for these reasons belieued as true . These euident testimonyes of credibility ( which according to diuers dispositions , doe diuersly moue , and perswade some of them one person , and some another , and which are only humane not diuine , and leaue as yet an impression only of euident credibility , not of diuine verity ) as they are in Scripture required , (e) Thy testimonies are made credible exceedingly ; so are they ordinarily to men of reason so necessary to their conuersion , that the Will , which is not moued but with reason , or shew of reason ( for nihil volitum nisi praecognitum ) cannot giue consent to any Verity of fayth , except it first be perswaded by some direction of these motiues of credibility . Wherupon ordinarily those who are conuerted from infidelity to Christianity without some one or other of these motiues , may be sayd to be too credulous ; for qui cito credit leuis est corde , He that giueth credit quickly is light of hart ; as on the contrary , they who are not moued by them sufficiently proposed , are Stulti & tardi corde ad credendum ; Foolish and slow of hart to belieue , and thereby are vnexcusable from sinne ; but they who with desire and deligence , with deuotion , humiliation , and resignation do endeauour , and duly doe enquire & seeke out the truth of Religion , are by inuincible ignorance excused from all sinne of positiue infidelity , vntill their vnderstanding be conuinced by euident reasons of perswasion that the one religion is false , and damnable , the other true and infallible . Thus these reasons of credibility are the first help or meanes in the subiect to illustrate the vnderstanding and conuince it of the credibility of the thinges belieued . Secondly a pious motion , affection , or disposition of the Will , which directed by the former motiues of credibility , and inspired by the speciall guift of grace , either preuenting or infused , doth first it selfe giue consent , and submit itselfe to obedience of fayth , then doth determinate the Vnderstāding to giue assent to the verity of the mysteries proposed . This pious disposition , first is supernaturall , proceeding frō the grace of God , (f) who workes in vs both to will , and to accōplish ; (g) And begins in you a good worke , and so our first motion to fayth , is of grace . Seconly , it is free , proceeding from our free power and will , (h) He that beleeueth and is baptized , shal be saued , but he that belieueth not shall be condemned . And so our free will concurs also to fayth and saluation , or resists by incredulity to damnation . Thirdly , it is necessary to the conuersion of the faithfull , & is the cause why some who haue slender ( yet sufficient ) motiues of credibility , & weake motions of grace , are freely conuerted ; whereas others , who haue stronger both motiues and motion , do obstinatly resist & will not be conuertd , according to that : (i) Certaine belieued these things which were spoken ( by Paul ) certaine beleeued not . And , (*) How often would I gather togeather thy children , & thou wouldest not ? And this is the second help , or meane working in the will. The third , and last help , or meane in the Guift , or habit of Fayth , which 1. is a permanent guift , or quality produced by God , & infused into our Vnderstanding ; 2. It doth enable and lighten the Vnderstanding ( which otherwise of it selfe is as able to see and belieue the high mysteries of fayth , as the eye without light is to see colours ) to giue assent , and beliefe to whatsoeuer articles are by holy Church proposed , as reuealed by God : (k) By fayth we vnderstand , or belieue that God is . It is the beginning and first ground of saluation & iustification , by which we first know God. (l) The iustice of God is reuealed by fayth : by which we liue in God. (m) The iust liueth by fayth : and by which we are prepared to iustification . (n) VVith the hart we belieue vnto iustice : We are iustifyed by (o) fayth . It is sometimes both obtained before grace of iustification be had , and also kept , after that is lost : so that many haue this habit of fayth , who haue not the habit of Charity . (p) Many of the Pharises belieued in him , but did not confesse him . (q) If I should haue all fayth , and haue no Charity &c. It may be lost , & that only by infidelity , or refusing to belieue , as it was in (r) Hymenaeus & Philetus , and in those (s) who erred from the fayth : (t) Made shipwracke about the fayth . (u) And fell from fayth . And thus it is lost in all Heretikes , who fall from fayth into heresy , and so loose their habit , by which in Baptisme they were enabled afterwards to belieue truely . And these three , to wit , The credible testimony , to conuince the Vnderstanding , to accept the articles as credible : The pious affection of the will , to encline the will to obedience of faith : And the guift or habit of Faith , to enable both Will and Vnderstanding , to consent and assent to the diuine reuelations , are those which are required on the part of the subiect , or person who belieues . The order and necessity of the former meanes . SECT . II. THE second Consideration may be , to ponder , first , the order and manner of proceeding . Secondly , the necessity and efficacy of these six helpes or meanes of Fayth , all as they are compared one with another , and all , as they haue their operation in vs. And first , for the order , we may obserue , that the māner which by God ordinarily is vsed , according to these meanes , to prepare and help an Infidell , or Heretike of discretiō , to his conuersion to true fayth , is this : 1. Mans Vnderstanding by reason of credibility , & motiues of perswasion is induced and disposed to accept this fayth , as credible , and such as in prudence may , and is before any other to be beleiued ; and his iudgement by certaine markes , and signes apparent and easy to euery ones capacity , is perswaded that this Church and company of belieuers is rather then any other , the true Church of Christ , by which he is to be directed in all particulars of his beliefe . 2. He is directed by the Churches authority , how to discerne betweene the verity and falshood of thinges declared , and betweene certainty of reuelation diuine , & illusion diabolicall . And by it is proposed and declared to him what in particuler he is to beleeue as true , and what to condemne as false . 3. The wil is inclined by grace to subiect it selfe vnto obedience , in consenting to fayth , & to determine the vnderstanding to yield assent to fayth . 4. The guift , or habit of faith , is infused into the Vnderstanding , that it may yeild a firme , and infallible beliefe , or assent to the articles of fayth , thus made probably credible , by reasons of credibility , thus proposed by the Churches authority , and thus made of infallible verity , for the authority or testimony of God reuealing , and affirming them to be true . In which act of assent consistes the essence , and perfection of diuine and supernaturall fayth . By which is apparent both the manner , and order how ordinarily God workes true Fayth in euery Christian , by these meanes , and also how faith is resolued and grounded vpon euery one of these meanes in particuler . For if we respect the disposing meanes by which we are prepared to accept of our fayth as credible , it dependes vpon the exteriour motiues of credibility , and so our fayth is resolued into them dispositiuè . If we respect the directing meanes , which propose and declare to vs in particuler , what we are to belieue , our faith depends vpon the authority of the Church , and so it is resolued into it directiuè . If we respect the efficient meanes by which it is wrought in vs , it depends vpon the guift , or habit of faith , and so is resolued into it effectiué . But if we respect the formall meanes , and finall resolution , why we doe belieue it , it depends vpon the diuine reuelatiō of God , and so is resolued into it , formaliter , and finaliter . Of which the preparatiue meanes , that is , the Credible testimonies are precedent to faith , and leaue only an human perswasion of the credibility of the verityes . The Directiue meanes , that is , the Churches authority , is also precedent , exteriourly proposing what in particuler , and why we are to belieue . The Effectiue meanes , that is , the habit of faith , doth interiourly cōcurre with the Will and Vnderstanding to the act of beliefe . And the Formall motiue , or meanes , that is , reuelation of God , is the formall , finall , and last resolution why we belieue infallibly such verityes to be true . So that if one aske , by what we are before prepared , and disposed to belieue the truth , it is by the credible testimonies ; if by what we are directed & guided to know the truth , it is by the Churches propositiō ; if by what we are assisted , and enabled to assent infallibly to this truth , it is by the habit of Faith ; if for what , and why we doe actually , formally , and finally assent , & belieue the same truth , it is for the reuelation of God. As therefore the Samaritans at the first were prepared by the womans relation ( who told them , that surely it was the Messias who had told her all that she had done ) to thinke it probable that he might be the Messias , and the woman was as it were a proponent , or propounding cause to them of him , (w) Many of the Samaritans belieued in him , for the word of the woman , giuing testimony , that he told me all thinges whatsoeuer I haue done . But afterwards hauing heard and conuersed with our Sauiour himselfe for two dayes , they now sayd : (x) Not for thy saying O woman , do we belieue , for our selues haue heard , and do know , that this is the Sauiour of the world indeed . So all Christians are first prepared by credible testimonies , & directed by Church authority , to the knowledge and certainty of that truth : but afterwards when the diuine reuelation it selfe , as the word of our Sauiour , is made knowne to them , then do they now ( formally and finally ) not for the testimonies of credibility , or Church proposition , but for the diuine reuelation it self , giue firme and infallible assent , and beliefe to the verityes or articles of fayth . And thus Catholike fayth is that , which is for probable testimonies accepted as credible , by Church proposed as infallible , by an infused habit effected as supernaturall , by diuine verity reuealed as truth infallible , and necessary to be belieued . This fayth is that , which is the beginning and ground of iustification , the way and gate to saluation : vpō which the Church of Christ is founded , and is as the life and soule of it , which maketh vs members and partes of Christs Church , we being by it , and Baptisme inserted into his mystical body , which maketh vs certainly & infallibly belieue , either expresly , or implicitè , all whatsoeuer articles of sayth God hath reuealed to his Church by his Apostles , which is a necessary meane , instrument , or dispositiō to our iustification , and saluation ; without which none are iustified , and by which , informed with charity , all are iustifyed : which is one , & entire fayth in all faithfull , who for one motiue , and by one proponent cause , do belieue all one doctrine , which being one and entire , belieue as they ought , eyther all articles of fayth explicitè or implicitè , or none at all , which ( by refusing to assent to any one article ( in which is questioned the ground of all ) is by infidelity lost to all : and to conclude which distinguisheth a Catholike from an Heretike , in that whosoeuer hath this fayth is a Catholike , and whosoeuer wants it , or looses it , is an Infidell , or Heretike , and so out of state of grace and saluation . And thus much for the order and manner of Gods working of fayth , by these meanes , in vs. Secondly , for the necessity and efficacy of these meanes ( though all and euery one in particuler be ordinarily necessary to true and diuine supernaturall faith ) the credible testimonies , as exteriour motiues , to conuince our Vnderstanding , that it may prudently accept of this faith , as credible and worthy of beliefe : the motion of grace , and habit of fayth , as interiour assistants , that the Will may not resist , but piously incline to consent , & determine the Vnderstāding to assent , and that the Vnderstanding may obediently yeild assent to the misteries of fayth : the materiall obiects , as those which we are to belieue , and the formall , as that , why we are to belieue ; all which are absolutly necessary to make fayth credible , free , and supernaturall , and without them , all faith is but humane , false , or fained : yet in respect of vs , and of our certainty of beliefe , a proponent cause , and that infallible , which can be no other but the Churches authority , is most important and necessary . And first , that a proponent cause is needfull all grant , because faith (y) being by hearing , and hearing by the word of Christ , some preacher , or teacher is necessary , to propose , and teach vs what is to be belieued by vs ; for as fayth depends not vpon reason , but vpon authority , & that of God , affirming this , or that to be true , and commanding it to be belieued ; so this authority , thus affirming this verity , must be made knowne to vs , by some directing or proponent meanes , or els we cannot come to the knowledge of it . 2. That this directing and proponent cause must be infallible , so that it cannot erre it selfe , nor propose to vs an errour , or falshood to be belieued for a truth , is proued : for since God requires of vs a certainty & infallibility of fayth , and this our certainty must be had by some direction , and proposition , by which it is proposed & made knowne to vs , what we are certainly to belieue ; it must needes follow , that this Proponent cause must be certaine and infallible , or els our fayth directed and guided by it , cannot be certaine . Thence it followes , that they who admit a proponent cause ( as the Protestants do their church ) and yet do admit it to be fallible and subiect to errour ( as all of them do their Church ) cannot haue any certaine and infallible fayth at all , as wanting a necessary , certaine , and infallible meanes to propose , and teach them this certaine and infallible fayth , which is confirmed by S. Augustine , who sayth , That if Gods prouidence rule and gouerne humane matters , we may not despaire , but that there is a certaine authority appointed by the same God , vpon which staying our selues , as vpon a sure step , we may be lifted vp to God. Thirdly , this certaine & infallible proponent , or directing cause is Church-authority , which Church that it may infallibly direct vs , & we securely rely vpon it ; first , Iesus Christ selected , and made it , not only his inheritance , (a) Which he hath chosen ; (b) Or his house which he builded and gouerned ; (c) Or his Temple of which himselfe is Priest : (d) but also , his dearest spouse ; (e) VVhich he espoused to himselfe alone in fayth and truth ; (f) As a Virgin pure and vnspotted , without corruption ; (g) Yea , as his owne body ; And one body with him ; (i) VVhich as head he nourisheth , cherisheth , and sanctifieth , making her glorious without spot ; (k) And which he hath purchased with his pretious bloud . Secondly , he priuiledged it first with his owne presence , promising to be (l) with it all dayes , euen to the consūmation of the world . Next , with the presence of the Holy Ghost , (m) The spirit of truth that he may abide with you for euer ; (n) And shall not depart out of thy mouth , and out of the mouth of thy seed , and out of the mouth of thy seeds seed for euer . And for what end ? (o) That he may teach you all thinges ; (p) That spirit of truth , shall teach you all truth . Thirdly , he armed it with all power and authority ; (q) To remit , or retaine all sinnes , to bind or loose whatsoeuer is to be bound or loosed in earth or in heauen ; (r) to correct & punish with the rod of correction ; (s) To excommunicate and deliuer vp to Sathā ; (t) And to determine all questions , or controuersies , as it should seeme good to the Holy Ghost , and it . Fourthly , he established and cōfirmed it ; (u) As the pillar and foundation of truth , that being in it selfe grounded in truth , and also grounding others in the same , it should stand so firmely , (w) that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it . Fifthly , he gaue to it commission and charge (x) to teach all nations , and to preach the Ghospell to all creatures . Sixtly , he gaue vs warrant and security , that we might safely heare and obey it ; (y) He that heareth you , heareth me . Seauenthly , he gaue vs charge , and command by precept of obligation , that whatsoeuer (z) they shal say to you ( speaking of the Scribes and Pharisies in Moyses chaire , but à fortiori , of the Pastours and Prelats in Peters Chaire ) that doe you . Eightly , he threats and terrifyes vnder great punishment ; first of danger , and of contempt of himselfe , by contemning it , (a) He that despiseth you , despiseth me . Secondly , of infidelity , and losse of his fauour and grace ; (b) He that will not heare the Church , let him be to thee as the Heathen , and the Publican . Thirdly , of hell and damnation for euer ; (c) He that belieueth not , shal be condemned . All which doe proue , not only an authority , and that infallible in the Church to direct and teach vs ; but also an obligation in vs to obey & submit our selues for fayth , to the direction and instruction of it . And least any should doubt of this Church , what it is , the holy Ghost explicates the meaning of our Sauiour , & tells vs , that it is ; (d) Some Apostles , & some Prophets , and other some Euangelists , and other some Pastours and Doctours , to the consumation of the Saints , vnto the worke of the ministery , vnto the edifying of the body of Christ , vntill we meet all into the vnity of Fayth . Which Pastours he will giue vs , according (e) to his owne hart , who shall feed vs with knowledge , & doctrine . And how shall they feed vs ? by preaching and proposing to vs the doctrine of fayth ; for as hearing is a necessary meanes to belieuing ; (f) How shall they belieue him , whome they haue not heard ? so preaching , and proposing what is to be belieued by Church-pastours , is necessary to hearing , & so to belieuing ; (g) How shall they heare without a Preacher ? By which is apparently proued the necessity , and infallibility of Church authority for a propounding and directing cause , in matters of fayth and Religion . All which may be confirmed : First , by authority of holy Fathers , among whome I will cyte S. Irenaeus , and S. Augustine for the rest . Irenaeus that learned Doctour , and holy Martyr , sayth : VVe ought not to seeke among others the truth , which we may easily take and receaue from the Church , seeing that the Apostles haue most fully layd vp in her , all thinges which are of truth , that euery man that will , may take out of her the drinke of life . For which those thinges that are of the Church , are with diligence to be loued , and the tradition of truth is to be receaued . S. Augustine sayth : The truth of the Scripture is holden of vs , when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall , or whole Church , the which is commended by the authority of the Scriptures themselues , that , because the Holy Scriptures cannot deceaue , whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued with the obscurity of this question , let him require the iudgement of the Church , which without any ambiguity , the holy Scripture doth demonstrate . In which is affirmed : First , that all truth is left by the Apostles in the Church , not in Scripture only . Secondly , that the same truth is to be learned and receaued of all by the sayd Church . Thirdly , that the truth thus receaued , is most true , and is to be loued , and followed of all . See more of the Fathers aboue in the first part , to whome I add a confirmation out of Luther , against himselfe , and his followers , who sayth , that , The Church neither can , nor ought to teach errours , no not in the least thinges , since God is the mouth of the Church , and as God cannot lye , so neither can the Church . Secondly , by Reason ; for since of all the rest of the means and rules also of fayth , there may be , and often is question & doubt , as for example , of the articles which be true , which not ; of reuelation which is reuelation of God , & which an illusion of the enemy ; of the motion of the spirit , which is of God , which of nature , & which of Sathan ; of the inclination of the Will , which is a pious disposition , and which an illuding affectation ; of tradition , which is diuine , Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall , which not ; of Scripture , which is true , which false ; of true , which is the incorrupted translation , which corrupted ; of the incorrupted trāslation , which is the true sense , which is false ; and of the true sense , which is to be belieued as fundamentall , and necessary , which is not to be belieued as fundamentall , but only voluntary . Of all which , since , I say , there euer hath beene , and now is great question & contentiō , some infallible directing iudge , & propounding cause is a necessary meane , to end these & all like controuersies , and to settle and resolue vs in the assured certainty of the one or other , or els will the contention be euer endlesse , and we in our opinions restlesse . Among which seeing no other can be assigned but the Church , and that God hath giuen so large commission , and priuiledge for that end to it , as we haue produced ; it remaines that the Church and Church authority , is , of all necessary meanes of fayth , the most necessary for vs , to settle and satisfy vs , in the certainty of our diuine fayth . And thus much of the order & necessity of these six meanes , and chiefly of Church-proposition , or the Proponent cause . How the Protestants want all these six meanes of Fayth . SECT . III. THE third Consideration , is to reflect how that of all these six meanes necessary to diuine fayth , the Protestants haue not any one , but are defectiue in all . These meanes are either External as the credible testimonies , which by euidence of reason conuinceth that such a faith is credible , and may prudently be belieued , and Church proposition , which by the credit of authotity , assures , that the same is true , and is to be belieued , both which are externall to the person belieuing ; or Eternall , as the articles which are belieued , and the reuelation why they are belieued , both which are of eternal verity and certainty ; or Internal , as the pious disposition of the will by grace preuenient , and the actuall assent to fayth in the Vnderstanding , by the infused guift of Fayth , both which grace and guift , do operate and cooperate to the act of diuine , supernaturall , and catholike fayth : That these , I say , all and euery one of these meanes are wanting in Protestants to their fayth & beliefe , I proue . And first , that they want all testimonies of credibility , which may perswade any man prudently to accept of their fayth , we may suppose , and note , that these testimonies , or motiues are of three sortes . 1. such as may perswade Iewes , and Gentils to become Christians . 2. such as may confirme Catholikes to continue Christians . 3. such as may induce Heretikes to returne to be Catholikes . Of the first sort are many alleaged , by ancient Fathers Dionysius Areopagita , Iustinus , Martyr , Clemens Alexandrinus , Tertullian , Cyprian , Lactantius , Chrysostome , & Augustine , against the Gentils , all cited & proued by (h) Valentia . As for exāple in respect of Christ , the dignity of his person , the efficacy of his preaching , the verity of his predictions , and the vertue of his miracles . In respect of Christian doctrine , the manner of the propagation of it , not by power , eloquence , nobility , or liberty , but by the simplicity of simple , poore , and vnlearned mens preaching , and that to a faith aboue reason , & contrary to the inclination of flesh , and bloud . The confirmation of it by miracles , martyrdome , prophecies , sanctity of doctrine , and order of discipline ; the opposition of it by the violence , and persecution of Iewes and Pagans , and by the eloquence , & reasons of Rethoricians , and Philosophers , all in vaine . In respect of the Scripture , the antiquity of it , as extant before any writings of any Philosophers , & the consonancy of it , in the agreement of the old testament with the new , and of both in themselues . In respect of the Professours , their excellent wit , eloquence , learning , and vertue in it , their conuersions from infidelity to it , their wonderfull constancy , and fortitude in defending , and dying for it . All which haue beene vrged as strong motiues , against Gentils to conuert them to it . Of the second sort which may confirme Catholikes , or such as confirmed S. Augustine in his catholike beliefe against the Maniches , which he recites to haue beene , 1. the consent of people and Nations . 2. Authority begun by miracles , nourished by hope , increased by charity , and confirmed by antiquity . 3. The succession of Priests from the seate of Peter , to the then present Bishop of Rome . 4. The name of Catholike , neuer vsurped by Heretikes , speaking to strangers , but vsually attributed by them to Catholikes : all which did iustly keep me ( sayth he ) in the bosome of the Catholike Church . Of the third sort , which may reduce Heretiks , are such as the Nicen Councell , in the Creed , S. Augustine , (*) and others did alledge to conuince the Heretikes of their tyme , that is , 1. Vnity of the present Church with the ancient in doctrine , and vnity of the partes with the head by fayth , & vnity among themselues by charity , and to their Pastour by obedience . 2. Sanctity of doctrine , which induceth sinners to holinesse , and conuerts Infidells to christianity ; and sanctity of persons , who exercise good workes of piety , & confirme their doctrine and holinesse by miracles and prophecies . 3. Vniuersality , in name by which it is called Catholike . In place by being or hauing been extended , in preaching , or professing to all or most Nations , at the least successiuely . In tyme , by being ancient in beginning from the Apostles , and constant in continuing from them vntill this present , against al persecution of Gentils , Iewes , or Pagans . 4. Succession of Pastours and Prelats , who by lawfull succession from some Apostolicall sea , or from some who haue authority from it , and by lawfull ordination from them who are lawfully ordeined , can deriue their succession and ordination from the Apostles . These are markes and testimonies , which distinguish the true Church of Christ from al conuenticles of Heretikes , & do conuince euidently that to be the true church where they are to be found , and that to be false , where they are wanting . Which supposed , it is to be proued . First , that the Protestants want all these testimonies of credibility , which should make euident the credibility of their fayth , and religion , either to Pagans to conuert them , or to Heretikes to reduce them , or to their owne followers to confirme them . And first , because it will be to tedious to touch euery one in particuler , we will select the most principall ; and for the first sort , which may conuert Pagās , it is certaine , that whatsoeuer of the former motiues the Protestants can alleadge , either concerning Christ his doctrine , his Scripture , or his Professours , to proue Christian Religion credible to a Pagā , they receaued them all from vs , and our Church ; ( from which they haue receaued what they haue , either of Christ , of Scripture , of Sacraments , of Christian religion in generall ) therefore what these proue or confirme , they proue & confirme our Church and doctrine , not theirs . For the first of the rest , if we seeke Vnity of doctrine , among them it is not to be found . They haue not Vnity , either with the Primitiue Church , and Fathers , whose doctrine they reiect in free Will , Merit , Iustification , Prayer to Saints , and most points now in controuersy , as in the first part is at large proued ; nor with any head , or supreme Gouernour , of which sort they admit none on earth , but disclaime all supremacy in any person whatsoeuer for matter ecclesiasticall ; nor yet among themselues , who are diuided into many diuisions and subdiuisions of Sects and Heresies , that long agoe the number exceeded a hundreth , & now are so many , that they cannot be numbred . In all which as they want all Vnity , so they want all meanes to settle any vnity , in that they admit no iudge to decide any controuersy , and to silence any persons contentious . If we seeke for Sanctity , either of doctrine , or of persons , by holynesse of life or miracles , it is not to be expected among them ; for their doctrine ( which is for example , that euery motion , though naturall , of concupiscence is sinne , as well without , as with consent , that all workes , though the best , are sinne , that no good Workes doe merit , that no Iustice is inherent , but imputatiue , that only Fayth iustifies , that the Commandements are impossible , that Man hath not Free-will , that God ordaines , and creates Men to saluation or damnation , without respect to their endeauour or workes : ) This doctrine I say , is a speciall retractiue to detaine any man from attaining to any sanctity and perfection of life , as impossible and not in his power . For any kind of Miracles , they are so destitute of them , to confirme their new doctrine , that they disclaime all ; and because they haue none , they affirme that none are now wrought , or if any be wrought , that they are false , feygned , or diabolicall . For Holinesse of life , they confesse it to be so far from them , that as (n) Luther confesseth : Men are dayly worse , being possessed now with seauen Diuells , more then before , yea with whole troupes of Diuells , and are more couetous , crafty , cruell , and wicked , then when they were Papists . And the like is confessed by Caluin , Musculus , and others cyted by (o) Becanus , and the Protestants Apology . If we seeke for Vniuersality , they are ashamed to stile themselues by the name Catholike , which is vniuersall , but by the name of Protestant , or for distinction of Protestants , by the name Lutheran , Caluinist , or the like . Vniuersality of place they cannot challenge , because their doctrine neuer extended out of the limits of a few Northern countryes in Europe , nor euer entred Africa , Asia , or America . Vniuersality of tyme they cannot chalenge , because their Church had its first being but about an hundred yeares agoe , and this so apparently , that we can nominate the yeare when , the authour who , the place where , the opinions what , the mantainers and abetters by whome this doctrine had first being in the world , and the opposers who at first did , & yet continue to gainsay it : so as they disclaime expresly from this marke , not only denying it to be any marke of the Church , but also confessing that their Church was , according to some of them , seauen hundred , to others a thousand , to others twelue hundred , to others foureteene hundred yeares , euer from Christ ( as before is proued ) either not at all , or altogether latent and inuisible . If we seeke for Succession of Ordination from the Apostles , they either beg it from the Romā Church , which they account Antichristian , or els take vp a new one at their owne handes , and are Prelates and Pastours of their owne creation ; and for want of ordinary vocation from Christ , are content with an extraordniary of their owne inuention . By which , and much more for breuity omitted , is euident , that all testimonyes of credibility sufficient to make their doctrine seeme probable , and worthy of credit , are wanting to them , and their Church . 2. That the Protestants want the two externalll meanes of fayth , which is Church-infallible proposition , by which they should be assured & confirmed in the certainty of their diuine reuelation , & mysteries reuealed , in the certainty of their spirit and motions by it , and in the certainty of their Scripture , and meaning of it , is proued : because whether we take the Church Authoritatiue , for the chiefe Pastours and Prelates by whose authority it is gouerned , or Representatiue , for the general Councels in which the whole body in the assembly of Bishops is represented , or Collectiue , for the whole multitude of all faythfull belieuers through the whole world dispersed : Take it , I say , in which of these senses you will ( in all which it is the true Church of God , and of infallible authority ) yet in none of these doe the Protestants receaue any infallible direction or confirmation frō it . For if we respect their Pastours and Prelates , they are not directed by them , or obedient in fayth to them , but , by the liberty and priuiledge of their spirit , euery priuate person hath authority to censure and iudge them . If we respect generall Councells , they disclaime all , as before is proued , or if they approue any , it is so farre as their Decrees do agree with the fancy of their spirit , to which they subiect them , and so longe as they are pleased to obserue what is commāded by them , in which they will be free without obligation to obey them . If we respect the whole body of the Church they in their generall Tenents doe generally hould , that it may erre and faile in doctrine and fayth , and for practise do boldly affirme , that for many ages it hath fallen , and failed not only in doctrine of Idolatry , superstition , and heresy , but also in very extancy , and being of a Church , as hauing beene inuisible not extant , but dead , buried , and corrupted for so many ages togeather , as in the first part is proued : and thus they cut off al infallible authority of Church proposition , which more then the other meanes , they do in plaine tearmes expresly reiect and condemne . 3. That the Protestants want the first internall means of Faith , that is , a pious disposition , or inclination to belieue what is proposed by the Church , as reuealed by God , is proued ; because as a pious inclination of the will , moued by the grace of God , doth apply and determine the Vnderstanding of a willing and well disposed person , either to labour and seeke out such motiues , & testimonies , as do make the truth of Religion seeme probable , or to assent to such as are already proposed vnto it : so the obstinate disposition of a willful Protestant , doth refuse to giue any credit , or beliefe to any reasons , though neuer so euident , or to any definition of the Church , though euery way most certaine ; but resolues with out amendement to persist in his preiudicate opinion , notwithstanding any reason or authority to the contrary . By which his obstinacy , 1. He fals into heresy , by willfully following his owne opinion which he chooses , and carelesly contēning the authority of the Church , in that it defines . 2. He looseth his fayth which he receaued in Baptisme , & fals into infidelity , partaking with Heretikes . 3. He belieues no articles of fayth ( to which he assentes , though truly , firmly , and for the testimony of God ) by any diuine and Catholike fayth , which depends vpon an infallible meane , that is Church proposing authority ; but by humane fayth , wholy relying , and lastly resoluing his beliefe , eyther vpon the authority of some deceauing maister , or vpon the testimony of some wrested Scripture , or vpon the euidency of some deluding notes and markes , or vpon the seeming apparency of his owne spirit , and conceit . 4. He separates himselfe from the vnion of the body of Christ , from the benefit of the merits of his passion , from the communion of his Saints , both in earth and heauen , and from all participation of hope of glory in Gods Kingdome to come , & so remaines as a dead member , cut from the body , as a dry bough deuided from the tree , as a darke glimse of light separated from the Sunne , & as a small streame stopped from the current of the fountaine ; all which as they do presently decay and dry , or come to nothing , so he . 4. That the Protestants want the two internall meanes and help of Fayth , that is , the infused and permanent guift of fayth inherent in the Vnderstanding , and both enabling and illuminating it to the producing of the act of diuine supernaturall fayth , is proued : Because Protestants who hold that Fayth doth iustify , and that Iustification is not by any inherent guif and quality , but by the extrinsecall fauour of God , not imputing our sinnes vnto vs , must needs by consequence hould , & so for the most part do hould , that there are no infused and permanent guiftes , or habits of fayth , which concurre or help to our Iustification , but that all is wrought by the motion of a transeunt spirit : which motiō , as it worketh ( according to them ) in them by it selfe only , & wholy , all internall good workes , without any cooperatiō of man , or mans freewill ; so it is only a motion which worketh in whome it will , when it will , and how it will , al , and whatsoeuer it wil , in man to his iustification and saluation : by which it is euident , that as in all their opinions , they are neyther constant nor permanent , but are wafted with euery wind of new doctrine , and so fly from the beliefe of one thing to another : so they are not guided by any permanent guift or quality , but by certaine flashes & motions of an vncertaine spirit , which leads them from one vncertainty to another , and so leaues them in al , vncertaine . 5. That the Protestants want the first of the eternall meanes or helps of Fayth , that is , the materiall obiects or articles of beliefe , which are to be belieued , as reuealed by Christ vnto the Apostles , and by the Apostles left to their Successours , and by them to vs , and posterity , is proued . 1. Because they belieue many thinges as obiects of Fayth , which are not reuealed , eyther in Scripture , or Traditions , of which are many instances giuen in the former parte ; so do they not belieue many articles which are reuealed both in Scripture and Tradition ; for which cause they reiect all tradition , and in it , many mysteries of fayth , which the Apostles left only by Tradition , and refuse many partes of Scripture , and that chiefly , because they containe many points of doctrine , which they will not belieue . 2. Because as they admit many points of doctrine , into the number of their articles of fayth , which the ancient Church condemned for heresies , as contrary to Apostolicall doctrine ( witnesse the ancient condemned heresies of Heluidius , Vigilantius , Arius , Iouinian , and others by them reuiued ; ) so they cōdemne many pointes of doctrine as erroneous , superstitious , or idolatrous , which the ancient Church receaued for articles of Fayth as agreable to Apostolicall tradition ( witnesse all the poyntes of doctrine , which the Magdeburgenses and others before cyted condemne as errours , and staines in the ancient Fathers in euery age since Christ ) in both which they erre in the materiall obiects of Fayth , as well in receauing condemned heresies for Apostolicall verities , as in cōdemning receaued Apostolicall verities reuealed by Christ for erroneous heresyes . 3. Because , as they admit speciall Fayth only ( whose obiect is only their remission of sinnes and iustification ) for diuine Fayth , by which they are iustified ; so all other fayth , by which they belieue , for example , the B. Trinity , Incarnation , Passion , and Resurrection , and Ascension of Christ , with the rest of the articles of faith vsually belieued , they acknowledge for no other , but for a general Faith , common as well to the damned and Diuells , as to them ; which faith in the Diuel , and damned as it is no voluntary and free act , proceeding from a pious disposition of the Will , nor a diuine and supernaturall worke , depending vpon any authority of God reuealing ; but a meere naturall and necessary act of knowledge● , conuincing their vnderstāding eyther by force of experience , or by euidence of reason , or by apparent and euident notes of credibility , or by some manifestly knowne testimonies of God , of the verity of that which they belieue and tremble at ; so in the same manner , their Faith of the same articles , by their owne confession , is not diuine but a meere humane fayth , grounded vpon some generall receaued opinion , or vpon some meere human authority : and so what they conceaue of the generall articles of faith , they do not receaue them as any articles of doctrine and supernaturall fayth ; but as generall receaued positions , humane coniectures , and their owne selfe-seeming and chosen opinions . 6. That the Protestants want all diuine Reuelation , for which as the formall cause and the finall resolution , they should belieue al which is by God reuealed , is proued . 1. Because what they belieue , they belieue not for that it was reuealed to the Apostles by the Holy Ghost , eyther at Pentecost , when it did visibly teach and confirme them , or in successe of tyme , when vpon occasion ( as at the conuersion of Gentils ) it did reueale to them all the mysteries euer after to be belieued ( which Reuelation made to the Apostles is the formall cause of fayth ; ) nor yet , for that it is proposed to them by Church infallible authority , as a condition necessary to know what is reuealed ; but for that , it is reuealed to them a new , by their owne priuate spirit , from which they receaue all their directions and certainty , both what is reuealed , why it is reuealed , and also by what meanes it is reuealed . 2. Because the meanes by which Christ doth manifest and declare vnto vs his diuine reuelations , they eyther plainely reiect , or wholy subiect to their priuate spirit ; for the authority of traditions , by which part of the diuine reuelations are deliuered to vs , and the Proposition of the Church , by which we are secured of the certainty of them , they reiect and deny . The authority of the Scripture , which is an other meane by which God hath reuealed his truth , and which they chalenge as the only means both of knowledge & certainty of diuine reuelations , they wholy subiect to their priuate spirit , by which they are assured , which is true Canon , which is true edition , which true trāslation , which true sense of it . And so for diuine reuelation they haue neyther any at all , nor yet any meanes to know or attaine vnto it . And thus much of the Protestants want of all the necessary helps & meanes , by which true and diuine supernaturall Catholike fayth is produced , conserued , and increased in the soule of euery faithfull belieuer , and member of Christs holy body , and Church . How the Catholikes and Protestants differ in these six meanes ; and how the Protestants make their priuate spirit the only meanes of all . SECT . IIII. THE fourth consideration is to reflect vpon the aduantage , which we Catholiks haue against the Protestāts , and the difference that is betweene vs and them , in these meanes of Fayth ; and how that the Protestants do substitute one only deluding and deceitfull meanes , that is , this their priuate Spirit , in place of all the six former meanes of fayth . And first for the materiall obiect , they professe to belieue , 1. only the doctrine which is reuealed in scripture . 2. that only which is reuealed , in that one parte of Scripture , which they are pleased to accept as Scripture by their spirit . 3. that only , in that part of Scripture , which is according to their precōceaued opinion , so interpreted by their spirit : so that Scripture alone , and that not in whole , but in part ; and that part of Scripture , as it is expounded by their priuate spirit , containes all the articles of their fayth . We Catholiks do professe to belieue , first , al that which haue been wrot by the Apostles , or Prophets in holy Scripture , & that in the whole bookes of Scripture , as anciently they were by a Councell of Carthage , S. Augustine , & others receaued , & all in that sense as it was by ancient Church expounded . 2. all that which hath been by the same Apostls deliuered to posterity , by word of mouth , and tradition . 3. all that which hath beene declared to vs out of Scripture or Tradition , by definition of generall Councells . 4. all that which by continuance of practise hath beene by holy Church euer reuealed . 5. all that which by vnanimous consent of holy and learned Doctours , Fathers , and Saints , hath beene belieued : in this we differ and haue the aduantage for the articles we belieue . Secondly , for the formall obiect of finall resolution of Fayth , they belieue what they belieue , eyther for that their sense doth so perceaue it , or for that their reason doth so persuade it , or for that their priuate spirit doth so suggest it , and so they make their sense , or their reason , or their owne priuate spirit and phantasie , the formall motiue , and finall resolution of their Fayth . We belieue what we do belieue , for that God hath reuealed it , and that not a new , and to some one in particuler , but anciently to the Apostles , and by them generally to all their successours , and by successiō to vs , so that our doctrine , and our beliefe of it , is grounded not vpon any our owne sense , our owne reason , our owne priuate conceit , all most fallible and most subiect to illusion and deceit ; but vpon Gods diuine reuelation , as he is the prime verity , and verity it selfe ; and that not newly , but of ancient euer since Christ reuealed ; that , not personal , made to me or one alone , but Apostolical , first reuealed to the Apostles themselues ; that , not priuate to euery one seuerally , but generall to all faithfull vniuersally ; that , not interrupted , & at certaine tymes , & by fits , and to certaine persons made knowne , but continued , & by succession , at all times by all faithfull , and in all places receaued ; that , not fallible without ground & subiect to priuate illusion , but most infallibly grounded vpon diuine reuelation and Church proposition , & subiect neither to be deceaued , nor yet do deceaue : and in this we differ , and haue the aduantage for the meanes of Fayth eternall . Thirdly , for the inward assistance of Gods grace , and the cooperation of it , they challenge only certayne motions or flashes of a fickle spirit , which whether it be by illumination , or illusion , whether of grace , or nature , whether supernaturall of God , sensuall of nature , or diabolicall of Sathan , they haue no meanes to discerne , or ground to be certaine , and by it , as dust by a whirle wind , they are carryed vp and downe in a round , without freedome , reason , or operation of their owne , to what fancy and conceit , it violently wheels and forces them . We are assisted and enabled by the diuine guift of an internall and permanent spirit or habit of faith , which infused into vs , and alwayes remayning in vs , is , at any instant , ready with vs , and the cooperation of grace in vs , to worke both a pious inclination of the will , to dispose it without obstinacy , obediently to consent ; and also an actuall assent of the vnderstanding , illuminating and enabling it , firmely to assent to what is reuealed and proposed . Also we admit and receaue , besides this habituall Grace , other actuall , and diuers motions of grace , and of it , some either excitant , first to excite & moue vs ; or adiuuant , to assist vs , being moued ; some either operant , which workes in vs without vs , and our cooperation ; or cooperant , which workes in vs , togeather with vs , and our cooperation with it ; some either sufficient , by which we are enabled to be conuerted ; or efficient , by which we are actually conuerted . And in this we differ from them , and haue the aduantage for the meanes of faith internall , both for the will and vnderstanding . Fourthly , for the credible testimonies and motiues of persuasion , which may in reason persuade any man prudently to accept any religion , as worthy of credit ; They haue not any which may , either induce any which was neuer of it , nor reduce any which are fallen from it , or establish any who are entred into it , that their faith , doctrine , and religion is credible , as is before proued . We haue many , & those forcible reasons , perswasions , and credibilities which may in prudence persuade any Pagan neuer admitted to it , or Heretike reuolted from it , or Catholike setled in it , that our faith , doctrine , religion , and Church , may and ought prudently to be accepted , is credible , and worthy of beliefe . We haue , Vnity with the ancient and primitiue Church , with the learned and holy Doctours , and Fathers , with the holy Saints , and Martyrs , whose faith and life we professe , to imbrace & imitate . We haue Vnity with one head , our chiefe Bishop and Pastour , whose definitiue sentence doth resolue our doubts , doth decide our controuersies , & doth end our contentions in faith and manners . We haue Vnity of faith among our selues , all of vs , though distant in place , though different in manners , though contending for temporall state , or dominion , yet liuing , and agreeing in obedience , to one spirituall Superiour , in vnity of one faith , in conformity of one seruice , sacraments , and ceremonies . We haue Sanctity and Holynesse , both of doctrine , which giues holy precepts , and rules to auoid sinne , for the loue of God , & feare of hel , to seeke perfection , by mortification ; internall , supressing our selfe-will , selfe-loue , and selfe-conceit ; and externall , taming our passions , & affections , with pennance of fasting , watching , discipline , and the like . And also of Good life , by frequent exercise of prayer , meditation & contemplation ; by dayly practise of pennance , & of patience in persecution ; & by perfect resignation to holy Obedience , Pouerty & Chastity . We haue Miracles , & those frequent & apparent , of prophesying , & curing of all diseases , raising dead , dispossessing of Diuels & the like , all wrought in confirmation either of our faith , or sanctity , all for the conuersion of Pagans and Heretikes ; of which in all ages & tymes , we haue many , & memorable of most nations now Christian conuerted to our Religion . We haue Vniuersality , not only of Name by retayning the title of Catholikes , by which we are vsually distinguished from al sects , & no sect doth vsurpe it , to distinguish them one from another ; but also of Place , as being generally dispersed in all the parts of the world , Europe , Asia , Africa , & America ; and also of Tyme , as being reputed the old Religion , and being indeed so old , as haue byn yeares since Christ & his Apostles , who institued and imbraced it . We haue continued Succession and Ordination of Prelates , and Bishops manifestly & orderly deduced , without interruption of persons or chang of doctrine , by a perfect enumeration of successours , & Apostles , and Apostolical Seas , vntill this present tyme , & these our present Prelates , Patriarches , and Popes . We haue the rare examples of millions of Martyrs , Confessours , & Virgins , who haue with their bloud & life defended and honoured our confessed Faith , & Doctrine ; & the strange punishments of persecuting Pagans , Iews , Heretikes , who haue with their sword and cruelty , opposed and persecuted it . In all which we differ from them , and haue the aduantage of them , in credible motiues . 5. For infallible proponent cause , as they do not require or assigne any , yea ( as before ) do expresly reiect all , chiefly the true , that is Church authority ; so they cannot produce any which either can be a proponent cause , or if it could , is yet either infallible , or so much as credible , for them selues and their Religion . For their scripture is not to them a proponent , but ( if it were true scripture ) a reuealing cause , because in it is reuealed truth , of which reuelatiō there is need of a proponent cause to declare , which is scripture , & which is , among many , the true sense of it . Their priuate spirit ( which yet they make their proponent cause ) is so farre from being either infallible or credible , that it is not only most fallible and subiect to deceaue , yea and actually doth deceaue , and hath deceaued so many ; but also most incredible without any apparence of probability , eyther to them , who haue it , or to others who follow it , that it can be true , or direct , and declare any truth at all . We haue a proponent cause , so certaine and infallible , which is Church authority , that it hath for the infallibility of it , the predictions of Prophets , the promises of Christ , the declaration of the Apostls , the confirmation of miracles , the approbation of holy Fathers , the practise of all antiquity , & what not ? all to proue the verity , and infallibility of it , in directing , and declaring to vs , what , and why we are to belieue . And in this proponent cause also we differ , and that principally from the Protestants : and so haue the aduantage & prerogatiue ouer them , in the externall meanes , and so in all the meanes required to fayth . For the priuate spirit , in particuler , if it were a sole & necessary ground , & meanes of fayth ( as the Protestants without ground suppose it ; ) if euery Christiā lawfully might , & necessarily ought to rely vpon it ( which yet none can ) for the certainty of his Fayth & Religion ; if it were a secure ground to build vpon , and a certaine meanes ( as it is not ) to attaine to true fayth and saluation : yet with as great reason , yea & with more probability , might we Catholikes both chalenge it , & rely vpon it , then the Protestants may or cā . And 1. for the certainty of the spirit , that they haue infallibly the spirit of God more then we , what can they chalēge for it more then we ? What certainty can they claime more then we ? If they alleadge their bare word , & say they haue it , we can alleadge ours , and say also we haue it . If they alleadge Scripture , & say , they haue it for them ; we also can alledge the same , and say we haue it for vs , yea , and had it before them , for that they had , what they haue of it , from vs. If they alleadge they haue the true sense of Scripture for them , and their priuate spirit , we can alleage , we haue the same , and the same meanes to attaine it , as they : many of vs haue as great learning and knowledge in tongues as they , as great a care and desire of truth as they , as diligent paines and industry as they , as feruent prayer and deuotion to find , and obtaine it as they . If they alleadge the sense and feeling of this spirit within them ; we can alleadge , and feele as much sensible deuotion , and more spirituall ; as many inspiratiōs , & illuminations , & these more certain ; as great promptnes and readines , to obey Gods motions , & that with more humility then they ; yea in all these , we haue and can alleadge more then they . 1. The conformity in iudgement , with the ancient Fathers , Councels , and Church , with whome we agree . 2. The direction , and authority of our holy Mother the spouse of Christ , our Church , which we obey . 3. The subordination and vnion of our selues , with our Pastours & Superiours of the Church to whome we are subiect & subordinate . And all this haue we more then they , all making vs more certaine then they , all better grounded then they . So that we may confidently say with the Apostle , In quo quis audet , audeo & ego . VVhat they dare , we dare ; what they can , we can ; what they may chalenge for the probability of their spirit , we can & may chalenge the same , yea more then they , plus ego , with more reason and probability , vpon better safety & security . In the certainty therfore of this spirit ( if it be secure ) we are equall with them , yea many degrees aboue them . Secondly . For the necessity of hauing the true spirit of God in vs , and the efficacy or effect of the operation of it with vs , we Catholikes are so far from denying either , that we hould a necessity , and that absolute , of both ; affirming & that as a principle of our faith , that no person whatsoeuer cā truly and duly belieue any article of faith , much lesse al , nor do any one worke auailable to saluation , much lesse saue his soule , without the special presence & assistāce of the grace or spirit of God in him . In as much therfore as concerns the necessary being , and working of this spirit of grace of God in vs , in some thinges , we , and the Protestantes agree , & in other we differ . We agree , 1. In that both of vs graunt , and require an operation and assistance of this spirit of God , not only to true faith , but also to good life , 2. In that both of vs do graunt , & require this operatiō to be so necessary in euery one , that neither right faith , nor vpright life , can be attained , or performed , but by it , & that as the prime , & principal cause , and agent . 3. In that both of vs do graunt , & require this necessary and operating spirit , to be so priuate , particuliar , & internall in euery one , that it hath an effectual operation , or cooperation in him : & that so effectual , that to it is attributed the effect of our conuersion , & saluation . And thus farre we agree . Thirdly . We differ frō them , in these . 1. In the name & vsual manner of appellation ; for we cal it the grace of God , which as before , is of diuers sortes ; some gratis giuen , as the guift of languages , cures &c. some iustifying , as Faith , Hope , & Charity ; some actuall , as excitant , adiuuant , operant & cooperant , sufficient , & effectual , & the rest before mentioned . They call it , the spirit , or priuate spirit , or motion of God , as inspiring and working , whatsoeuer good is wrought in them . 2. We differ in the extension of it ; for we affirme this grace to be extended , offered , and giuen sufficiently , though not effectually , to all ; so that all , and euery one of reason haue sufficient meanes , and ability to know God by Faith , and to loue him by Charity , so far as is needfull for their saluation . They affirme their spirit , to be restrayned , offered , and giuen , only to the elect , & faithfull ( whome they make all one ) and that all others neither haue , nor can haue it ; but are by the absolut will and decree of God debarred from it , & therby made incapable of it . 3. We differ in the manner of operation of it ; for we affirme that grace doth worke , or cooperate with vs , and we with it , so that the grace of God , and our Free-will , as two concurring causes ( though Grace the more principall ) do ioyntly effect , and produce euery good worke of Faith , Hope , or Charity , or the rest in vs ; whereby our good works haue of grace , that they are diuine , & supernaturall , and of our selues that they are voluntary , and free , & of both , that they are meritorious , of more grace present in vs , and of glory in heauen , to come to vs. They doe attribute so much to the worke of their spirit in them , that they take away all cooperation of our free-will in vs , wherby they make man as dead , without all action , or operation , to any spirituall , and good workes ; & make the spirit so●e , & whole worker of all , in man. Fourthly . We differ in the nature and permanency of this grace , or spirit ; for we acknowledge grace to be an inherent quality , & permanent guift infused into our soule , which doth enlighten , & enable our vnderstanding to giue assent by faith to the diuine mysteries proposed , and inspire our will to be sorrowfull by contrition for our sins committed ; which guift once infused , is not so permanent , & perpetuall , but that the habit of Charity is lost by mortall sinne against Charity , the habit of Hope , by desperation against hope , & the habit of faith , by infidelity against faith . They , or many of thē , deny all infused guifts of faith , hope , charity , or the rest , & admit only a transeunt motion , or operatiō of the spirit , which working in man , without mans cooperation , when , what , how , and in whome it pleaseth , is neuer totally or finally lost after it be receaued , doth make a man alwayes faythfull and beloued of God , and doth giue that vertue to all his workes , though neuer so bad , that they make them gratefull and acceptable to him : so that according to them , no worke of a faithfull man , though neuer so bad , can make any enmity betweene God & him , God neither imputing it as an offence to him , nor man incurring the displeasure of God for it . Fiftly . We differ in the effect and operation assigned to it ; for we assigne the function , and office , for example , Of the guift of faith , to be the eleuation , & enabling of our Vnderstanding to giue assent to what is reuealed by God , deliuered in scripture , or tradition , and proposed by Church authority : Of the guift of hope , to be the inflammation of the soule , to loue God as our chiefest end , to desire him , as our greatest Good , to hope for him , as our good absent , and to delight in him , as our good present : Of the guift of charity , or grace , to be the forgiuenes of our sinnes , the sanctification of our soule , adoption to be the sonnes of God , title and right to the kingdome of heauen , and a valew , & dignity of merit to our good workes . They assigne to their priuate spirit a double effect , the one of proposing the obiect ; the other , of working in the subiect . In respect of the obiect it proposeth to them , what they are to belieue , and why they are to beleeue it , and how they are to know both . In respect of the subiect , it workes in them ( say they ) a firme and infallible assurance of all the former thinges belieued , so that they stand sure and certaine , not only of the Scripture & the sense of it , and of their doctrine , and verity of it ; but also of their spirit , that it is of the Lord , and of their saluation , that it is as due to them , as it is ( to vse Caluins owne words ) due to Christ , and that they can no more loose heauen , then can Christ , nor be no more damned , then can Christ . In which they attribute to their priuate spirit all the reason of credibility exteriour , and all the operation interiour , both in the will and vnderstanding , which they haue of the certainty of all their faith , and saluation . By all which is apparent , that as they made it the sole ground & foundation ( which is in the former part at large proued ) on which their faith is built : so they make it the sole meanes ( as is here proued ) and the totall cause , materiall , formall , finall and efficient , both exteriourly reuealing , proposing , and persuading , and interiourly working , or rather deluding them in the obstinacy , rather then certainty , of their supposed faith . And this priuate spirit , and this effect of it , is that , which they rest vpon , and that which in this second Part we intend , by the assistance of Gods grace , to confute , and disproue . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS INTERPRETATION OF HOLY SCRIPTVRE , Deciding of controuersies , & iudging of mysteries of Fayth , cōfuted by holy Scripture . CHAP. II. Out of 1. S. Iohn 4. 1. S. Paul 1. Tim. 4.11 . Act. 20.30 . 2. S. Pet. 2. describing this Spirit . SECT . I. THE holy Ghost , in holy Writ borh foreseeing , and also forshewing to vs , the abuse of this priuate spirit , the better to forewarne vs of it , & to arme vs against it , doth not only in generall , as it doth many other abuses : but euen in particuler , and as it were on set purpose , both plainely decipher , and describe it , & also fully confute , and condemne it . Out of it therefore , we will draw our first arguments of confutation , and by it conuince of falsity , this deceitfull , and deceauing spirit . And first to begin with the new Testament , for the more full instruction of our selues , and the plainer confutation of this spirit , I will for one proofe conioine in one argument , the testimonies of the chiefest Apostles , that is , of S. Iohn , S. Peter , and S. Paul. First S. Iohn 1. epist . chap. 4 v. 1. doth plainely giue admonitions against this spirit , ( 1 ) Belieue not euery spirit ; ( 2 ) but try the spirits if they be of God. Secondly both S. Iohn , and S. Paul doe giue the reasons why we should not belieue , but try these spirits . S. Iohn v. 2. Because many false spirits are gone out into the world . S. Paul , 1. Tim. 4.11 . Because in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the fayth , attending to spirits of errour , and doctrine of Diuells . Againe , 2. Cor. 11.14 . For that Satan himselfe , doth transfigure himselfe , into an Angell of light , that is , doth make shew of workes of piety , iustice , and deuotion , thereby to allure men , by opiniō of him , to his traps of errours & damnation . Thirdly , both S. Peter , & S. Paul , do shew in what sortes of persons is this spirit , & what fruits and effects it produceth in them . S. Paul briefly calls the persons , (a) Rauening wolues , who after his departure will enter among them ; and men who arising out of themselues , will speake peruerse thinges , and draw many disciples after themselues . S. Peter more fully describes the effects of it , shewing , (b) That it makes false Prophets , and lying maisters , who bring in Sectes , or ( as it is in the Greeke ) heresies of perdition . (c) Who blaspheme the way of truth ; (d) walke in the concupiscence of vncleanesse , contemne dominion ; (e) allure vnstable soules ; (f) promise liberty ; (g) speake proud thinges of vanity ; (h) entangle those , who flye from co-inquinations of the world ; (i) and turnes from the holy Commandement , and knowne way of Iustice ; (k) and being vnlearned , & vnstable , depraue the Scriptures to their perdition . These are the effects of this spirit , which that we should not belieue , for the foresayd reasons , the Apostle did giue the foresayd caueat , or admonition . In which we may note . First , for the former admonition , that there are diuers reasons , why we are not to belieue euery spirit . 1. Because there are so many , and diuers spirits : As one (a) the spirit of God , which is of God. Another (b) the spirit of man which is in man. Another (c) the spirit of the world , which is of worldly thinges . Another (d) the spirit of the Diuell , which is euill . One (e) which is the spirit of truth . Another (f) the spirit of lying , and errour . One (g) the spirit of wisedome and vnderstanding . Another (h) the spirit of giddinesse . 2. Because the effects of these spirits are often doubtfull , & not certaine of what spirit they proceed . 3. Because the similitude and manner of their operations , & motions is many tymes great , and hard to be discerned . 4. Because the art and meanes how to discerne , and iudge of them , is very hard , & not certaine . 5. Because the guift of discerning them is extraordinary , rare , and giuen to few ( of all which is fully treated in the ensuing Chapters , ) therefore great reason there is , not to belieue the suggestion of euery spirit : great danger there is in following the direction of euery priuate spirit , & great discretion must be vsed , before that any man , though learned and holy , much more simple and sinnefull , can either in wisedome and prudence giue credit ; or with safety , and security , rely himselfe , his fayth , and saluation vpon any priuate spirit , or motion of it . Reason therfore , and experience confi●mes the doctrine , and caueat of S. Iohn , That we should not belieue euery spirit . Secondly , we may note for the tryall of these spirits . 1. How , and by what rule , this tryall is to be made . 2. Who , and what sort of persons , are to make it , and apply the rule . For the rule and meane of trying these spirits , Catholikes assigne it to be the spirit of Gods Church , or of the chiefe Pastours in it , & gouernours of it , as consenting , or at the least not dissenting one with another : and as vnited , and no way separated by schisme , or heresy from their head ; so that what spirit soeuer is squared by this spirit , directed by it , and conformable in fayth , and manners to it , is infallibly the spirit of God. And what spirit of whomesoeuer is contrary to it , diuided from it , or separated from communion or society of it , is certainly not the spirit of God , but of man , the world , or the Diuell . And this is a way certaine to try spirits , and discerne which is true , or false ; good , or bad ; of God , or the enemy . For sith the spirit of God is ( as God is ) one and not diuided , (1) One God , one Lord , one spirit , one and the same spirit . In one spirit we are baptized into one , and in one spirit made all to drinke ; And sith the Church of God is directed by this one , and the same spirit , this spirit of truth , this (2) Paraclete , the Holy Ghost , which shall teach all truth : It followes that whosouer are partes of this Church , and members of this body (3) You are the body of Christ , and members of member ; must haue their spirit vnited with it , ordered by it , and subordinate to it . And see whatsoeuer spirit is contrary to it , or diuided from it , cannot be the spirit of God , but the spirit of the enemy of God. This is apparent out of authority of holy Scripture . The Protestants for the most part will haue this rule of triall to be Scripture ; for so is their common Tenet , that al spirits are to be tryed by the word of God : yet some of them , of more quick insight , finding this to be insufficient ( Because ( sayth Caluin ) they who say thus , say somewhat , but not all ; for except we haue the spirit of prudence to discerne , it will little auaile to haue the Scripture on the fingers ends ) therefore they assigne the consent of Church , or Councel , for vnity sake ( thus saith Caluin ) to be this publicke rule , or meanes , against those mad men who bragge of the spirit . But being vrged ( yea Caluin vrges it himselfe ) whether a man shall rest on the Councels determination ? he resolues , Noe. For ( sayth he ) euery spirit of euery priuate belieuer shall iudge of this decree , and determination of the Councell . If so , then as the publicke Councell shall try and iudge the spirit of euery priuate man , so the spirit of euery priuate man shal againe try & iudg the spirit of the Councel . And then what end or pause wil be of trying and iudging , betweene euery priuate mans spirit , & the Councells spirit ? And what certainty can be in either ? This therefore is a round , or circle , no meanes or rule to try spirits , if they be of God , as in the eight Chapter is more fully declared . And this for the rule of trying spirits . For the persons who by office haue right to try spirits , and apply this rule and meanes ; though the Catholikes prohibit none , yea perswade all for their owne satisfaction , to do it , so they do it by the direction of the former rule , & according to the modell of it : yet the proper office , & function to do it , they assigne only to the Pastours , and directours in Gods church , who by the authority of their function , and the ability of their learning , should in reason be more fit to discerne these spirits , and direct the people , in the discerning of them , and also by this direction , establish & keep a subordination of inferiours to Superiours , or of the sheep to the Pastour , and nourish and maintaine an vnity of of Faith and doctrine among both . The Protestantes giue this right and office of discerning spirits , to all , and euery faythfull person , to whome they giue liberty euery one to try and iudge their Pastour , yea all Pastours , Prelates , Coūcels , and their spirits . Whereby , as they infringe all Ecclesiasticall subordination , so they are expresly contrary to S. Paul , who doth assigne for one of the guifts of gratiae gratis giuen , ( which is not common to all ) the guift to discerne spirits ; & thereby also do open gappe to all confusion , and dissentiō : and thus faile , not only in the meanes how , but also in the persons by whome spirits are to be tryed . Out of all which ▪ I reason thus ; That spirit which we are forewarned not to belieue , which is to be tryed by another spirit , and that spirit by another in infinitum : That spirit into which Sathan (a) transfigureth himselfe , deceauing many , and making many false Prophets and rauenous wolues : That spirit which brings in (b) Sects of perdition , drawing many out of the Church , which causeth so many to (c) blaspheme the way of truth , to walke in concupiscence , (d) to contemne dominion , (e) to allure vnstable soules , (f) to promise liberty , to speake proudly , (g) to depraue Scriptures , (h) to turne from the Commandement , (i) and to draw disciples after it : That spirit which cannot be discerned , whether it be the spirit of God , man , or the Diuell ; whether of truth or falshood ; of wisedome or giddines , and in regard it hath so great similitude , in effect and operation , one with another ; That spirit , I say cannot be an infallible rule and iudge to interprete Scripture , iudge of fayth , decide controuersies , and direct euery man in the way of his saluation ; this is euident , and needs no proofe . But such is the priuate spirit , which euery priuate person , and sect-maister challenges to himselfe , as is before proued , and by experience confirmed ; in that euery Heretike , ancient , or late , hath by force of it separated himselfe from Gods Church , broached so many blasphemous opinions , contemned so highly all Church-authority , promised licentious liberty of the Ghospell , depraued so fowly holy Scriptures , and drawne so many into perdition after them , ( all which shall more at large afterwardes be confirmed : ) Therefore it doth follow , that this priuate spirit , cannot be a rule of fayth , able to assure and secure euery one in his beliefe , and saluation . And thus much of the first proofe out of Scripture , against this priuate spirit . Out of 2. Pet. 1.20 . making the same spirit authour and interpreter of Scripture . SECT . II. THE second proofe is out of S. Peter , who , 2. Pet. 1.20 . prouing the power , and present cōming of Christ , first by the eye-witnesse of some , in his Transfiguration , next by a more firme testimony , in respect of the Iewes , that is , the holy Scripture , ( which he commends for the effect , which is to lighten , as light in a darke place , and for the authour which is the Holy Ghost ) hath among the rest , these wordes : Vnderstanding this first , that no prophecy of Scripture , is made by priuate interpretation , for not by mans will , was prophecy brought at any tyme , but the holy men of God spake , inspired with the Holy Ghost . In which wordes S. Peter makes first a serious premonition , Vnderstanding this first , as a point of principall , and important consideration . Secondly , he layes downe his assertion in wordes plaine & powerful , against this priuate spirit , That no prophecy of Scripture , that is , no sense and meaning of Scripture ( for so are they called , (4) some Prophets , because they did expound the secret hidden mysteryes of Scripture , and foretell the ioyes of heauen to the iust , as S. Ambrose , and S. Anselme , with all others do expound it ) is made by priuate interpretation , that is , according to S. Chrysostome , Not by the spirit , which many bragge of , as the spirit of God , but falsly pretending it , do speake that which is their owne . According to S. Clement : Not according to the proper vnderstanding of our owne wit. Yea according to Caluin : Not by our owne proper sense ; for what we produce out of it , is prophane . The sense therefore according to the plaine wordes , and generall consenting interpretation of all , is , No priuate spirit , of any priuate man expounding Scripture , according to his owne priuate sense , and proper conceit , and fancy , is a fit meanes to interpret Gods holy word , of which thirdly he giues this reason , because not by mans will , or by any selfe seeming humane conceit , was prophecy brought at any tyme , that is , the sacred and holy sense of Gods holy word , neuer at any tyme brought forth and penned , but the holy men of God , the Prophets , and Apostles spake , and dictated , what they wrote , inspired with the Holy Ghost : that is , Because the Holy Ghost was the author of the wordes and sense of holy Scripture , in the mouth , and handes of those , who first penned it ; Therfore must the same holy Ghost be the expositour of the sense of it , in the mouthes of them , who rightly vnderstand it . And this to be the true sense of this place , witnesse , besides the former testimonies , not only the Rhemists , Bellarmine , and others , but also Caluin himselfe , saying : The spirit which spake by the Prophets , is the only interpreter of himselfe . Out of which place and wordes I inferre , first , that as the true text of Scripture it selfe , so also the true sense , and meaning of it , is a meane and ground of Christian religion , first and principally to be knowne . Secondly , that this true sense is not to be made by any priuate interpretation of the priuate spirit of euery priuate person . Thirdly , that it is to be made by the same spirit of God , which was the first authour , and dictatour of it . And out of this inference and euidence of wordes I argue thus . That spirit which must be the true and infallible interpreter of holy Scripture is , and must be the same , which was the first author and writer of it , as is heere proued ; but that spirit which first wrote the text of holy Scripture , was not a guift or spirit communicated to euery priuate person , though faythfull , but only to the Prophets , and Apostles , the first and prime pillars , and Pastours of Gods Church , as is euident . Therefore this , and the same spirit , or guift , which is giuen to expound the same scripture , is not a spirit giuen to euery priuate belieuer , but only to the Pastours and pillars of Gods Church , who as they are the successors of the former first pillars , and Apostles : so also they receaue the same spirit , to interprete the same Scripture , which their Predecessours wrote . As therfore the true spirit resided chiefly in the first Pastours , & pillars of Christs Church , to write holy Scripture ; so also the same spirit resides chiefly in their succeeding Pastours and Prelates to expound it , and not in euery faythfull , and simple belieuer , who can only read it . Out of 1. Cor. 12.18 . prouing the interpretation of of Scripture to be a guift , gratis giuen , not common to all faythfull . SECT . III. THE third proofe is taken out of those places of Scripture , which attribute this guift of interpreting Scripture , not gratiae gratificanti , or to iustifying grace , which is common to all faythfull belieuers , and adopted children of God : but , gratijs gratis datis , or graces freely bestowed , which are speciall to some persons only , and those not alwayes Saints , & holy men . For which we may note , that S. Paul , 1. Cor. 12.18 . of the 9. guifts of the Holy Ghost which there he recounts , and of which foure , to wit , 1. curing diseases , 2. working miracles , 3. prophecy of future euents , 4. discerning of spirits , are transeunt motions ; and fiue , to wit , 1. Wisedome , 2. Knowledge , 3. Fayth , 4. Kindes of tongues , 5. Interpretation of languages , are according to Deuines , permanent habits : of these I say doth S. Paul assigne 5. both them , and their proper function , to be about the deciding , or explicating of matters of beliefe , & interpreting of holy Scripture , that is , 1. Wisedome , which is to explicate the high mysteries of the Trinity , Incarnation , predestination , and the like . 2. Knowledge , which is to explicate either matters of manners , what we are to do , and how to liue ; or mysteries of fayth , by examples , comparisons , and philosophicall reasons . 3. Fayth , which is eyther without feare to professe , and preach what is belieued , or by contemplation , to penetrate and explicate the deep mysteries of beliefe . 4. and 5. to wit , Kindes of tongues , & interpretation of languages , which is to explicate obscure and hard places of Scripture , to interprete hymnes , and prophecies in strang languages , and to translate the Scripture into other tongues . All which in their seuerall function , and in diuers manners , are imployed in discerning iudging , and interpreting of mysteries of fayth , & difficulties of scripture . Secondly , we may note , that these guifts , doe not necessarily depend , and follow vpon iustifying Grace , and so are not common to all faythfull , or true children of God , but are speciall guifts & graces bestowed , some vpon one person , some vpon another , euery one as the spirit of God pleases . v. 11. not all vpon euery one . This is apparent , first out of the text , which sayth : That to one , certes , by the spirit , is giuen the word of VVisedome ; to another the word of Knowledge ; to another Fayth ; to another Interpretation of languages ; to another Grace of doing cures , of miracles , of prophecy , of tongues , of discerning of spirits . v. 8.9.10 . &c. Againe : Are all Apostles ? as heades ; Are all Prophets ? as eyes ; Are all Doctours ? as tongues ; Are all miracles , and hauing the grace of doing cures ? as handes ; Do all speak with tongues ? Doe all interprete the Scripture ? as Maisters ; no surely . For he hath giuen some , not all , to be Apostles ; Some , not all , to be Prophets ; Other some , not all , to be Euangelistes ; Other some , not all , to be Pastours , and Doctours , to the consummation of the Saints , into the worke of the ministery &c. Eph. 4.11 . Secondly the same is apparent by the comparison of this mysticall body , with a naturall body , which also the Apostle vseth , v. 14. &c , for as all members haue not the same operation , but some haue one , some another , the eyes to see , the hands to worke , the feet to walk , the head to discourse ; so in the mysticall body , all and euery one though faythfull , haue not the same and all guiftes , but some one , some another ; as some haue the guift of cures , some of miracles , some of tongues ; so also some haue the guift of Wisedome , Science , and Interpretation , but all haue not euery one of them ; therfore some must as Maisters , teach ; some as Scholers learne ; some as heades direct and instruct ; some as members be directed , and instructed : so that , as all members , are not one member , so neither hath one member all operations , or functions ; but according to diuision of graces , is also diuision of ministrations , and operations . v. 4. Out of which it doth follow , first ; that the guift of interpretation of holy Scripture , and explicating of high mysteryes of fayth , is a guift , not generall and common to all the faythfull , as depending and following necessary vpon Fayth , or grace , but speciall and particuler to some , as gratis giuen , to whome it pleaseth God to giue it . Secondly , that all faythfull , and iust persons , cannot be directed by this extraordinary guifte , in their iudgement of fayth , decision of controuersies , and interpretation of scripture , because it is not giuen to euery iust man , as is proued : not yet only to the iust , but sometymes to the vniust , as to those who cast out Diuells , in our Sauiours name , and yet he knew them not , that is , did not approue , and commend them . And out of these I argue thus . To interprete Scripture , and decide Controuersies of Fayth , is a guift , not giuen generally to all the iust or faithfull , by vertue of their iustification : but extraordinarily bestowed vpon some only , as a grace , gratis data : but the priuate spirit , according to the Protestant doctrine , is a guift giuen to all , and euery faithfull , by vertue of their iustification , not gratia gratis data : to some therefore the Protestant priuate spirit cannot be a guift , giuen to interprete , in euery one , the holy Scripture , and iudge of all controuersies of fayth . The Maior , is the doctrine of the Holy Ghost . The Minor , is the doctrine of the Protestants . And so the conclusion following out of both , is most certaine . Out of Ezech 13. describing , in false Prophets , this priuate spirit , with the effects & punishment of it . SECT . IIII. THE fourth proofe is out of the Prophet Ezechiel , who chap. 13. doth describe , and decypher to vs , 1. This priuate spirit what it is . 2. the persons in whome it is . 3. the effects which it worketh . 4. the punishment which ensues vpon it . Therefore he describes , that spirit to be the same , with this priuate spirit , that is , The spirit of their owne hart , which the Prophets follow . v. 3.2 . This spirit is in the men-prophets , The Prophets of Israell , that prophecy . v. 2. & in the women-prophets , The daughters of the people , which prophecy v. 17. both of them being the people of God , and chosen Israelites . 3. The effects of it , are . 1. Blindnes , they see nothing ▪ v. 3. 2. Vanity , They see vaine thinges . 3. Lyes , They diuine lyes , saying , Our Lord sayth , whereas I haue not spoken , v. 7. & chap. 22.28 . saying : Peace , and there is not peace , v. 10. 4. Fraud , which , as Foxes in the desertes , v. 4. tyed by the taile of malice , and seuered in the heades of doctrine , doe destroy the vinyards of Christ . Cant. 2. as dawbing of a wall , made by the dawbers of clay or morture , but without temper of chaffe or straw , v. 11. As cushions and pillowes , made by delicious women , and layd vnder mens heades to lull them in security , and catch their soules . In both which with faire exteriour shew , and hopefull promises they deceaue the people , feeding some with a security of future good , & terrifying others with danger of future euill , that they might kill the soules , that is , denounce that they shall be killed : who dye not , and viuificate the soules , that is , declare that they shall liue : which liue not , lying to the people that belieue lyes . v. 19.4 . The punishment it brings with it , is woe to the foolish Prophets , v. 3. woe to them that sow cushions , and make pillowes : I will destroy the wall , and accomplish my indignation in it : my hand shall be vpon the Prophets ; in the councell of my people , shall they not be ; and in the Scripture , of the house of Israell , they shall not be written ; neither shall they enter into the land of Israell . v. 9. They shall diuine no more , and I will deliuer my people out of their hands . v. 21.23 . Loe , heere is described the nature , the authour , the effect , and the punishment of this spirit . In all which , if we compare spirit with spirit , person with person , effect with effect , and punishment with punishement , we shall find the priuate spirit of the Protestants properly described , in this false spirit of the false Prophets . This false spirit of the false Prophets was a spirit of their owne , a spirit of their owne hart , that is , of their owne inuention , according to their fancy , because , as sayth the Prophet Hieremy : They did falsely prophecy to you in my name , and I sent them not , sayth our Lord. The priuate spirit of the Protestants , is a spirit of euery mans owne , and his owne hart , euery one hath his owne spirit , and that priuate , and singular to himselfe . Euery one sayth , his spirit is of the Lord , whereas our Lord hath not sent either them , or their spirit . These false Prophets were some men , some women , all Prophetes of Israell v. 1. Daughters of my people , v. 17. all reputed among the faythfull children of God , and yet false Prophetes , and false Prophetesses were they both . The Protestants , who chalenge this spirit , are all Prophets , that is , interpreters of the word of God : they are ( in their opinion ) all faithfull & elect children of God , all endued with this spirit , which is giuen to all , & common to al men & women , & by it euery one of them doth prophecy , and interprete Scripture . The fruits and effects of this spirit , were Blindenesse , Vanity , Lying and Deceit , by which they in hypocrisy made faire shew of piety : but within wanted temper of good morter , of true piety to daw be their wall ; and with flattery layd soft cushiōs of hopefull promisses vnder the elbowes of euery mans humour , to please their fancy , and all to catch soules , and deceaue Gods people . v. 10.18 . The Protestants spirit which vaunts so much of knowledge , verity , sincerity , and piety , what is it , but a trappe baited with so many faire baites , to catch so many soules ? Their Church , what is it , but a wall without temper , or morter of the true spirit , or word of God , to vphould it from falling and erring ? Their doctrine , what is it , but cushions , and pillowes of faire promises , of certainty of truth , and saluation , deceauing all who belieue it , Killing or denouncing damnation to them who dye not , and Viuificating , or assuring saluation to them who liue not ? Their Preachers or Prophetes , what are they , but as their blind , vaine , lying , and deceitfull spirit , by which they are guided ? that is , men most blind in errours of doctrine , most vaine in ostētation of truth , most lying in falsely accusing others , and most deceitfull in shifts & euasions , against manifest truth . Lastly as the punishment which fell vpon these Prophets , & their blind , lying , vaine , & deceitfull spirit , was not only a woe and a curse of Gods indignation against them , a diuision , & dissolution of the wall among themselues : but also a separation of them from the councell of Gods people , from the house of Israel , and from entrance into the land of promise ; so the punishment which fals vpon this spirit , & them who are deluded by it , is no lesse then a dissolution of all vnity in Religion ; a separation from the Church of God , from the body of Christ , from the society of Saints ; from the vnity of whose spirit , by the singularity of this their priuate spirit , as they are separated in this life , so by incurring the woe & indignation of God against them , as well as the former Prophets , they must needs be diuided from him , and his kingdome in the next life . And this is the fruit of this spirit in all Prophets , and professours of it : and the end , and punishment of them who are conducted by it . Out of which it followes . 1. That as this priuate spirit , was in the old Prophets ; so it is in these new Preachers , & interpreters of the word of God : as in them it inuented new and false prophecies , and predictions ; so in these it deuiseth new and false errours in fayth , and vaine , and deceitfull expositions of scripture . 2. That as in them , it was a spirit of blindenesse , lyes , vanity , and deceit , by which many were lead into dangerous and damnable errours , & fell into great and grieuous punishments ; so in these Preachers and interpreters , it hath the same effect , and brings vpon them the like punishments . 3. That as then , before Christ , this spirit possessed , and seduced both men , and women , prophets & prophetesses ; so now , & euer since Christ , it hath done the same , as S. Hierome notes of the tymes before him : Simon Magus had his Helene ; Nicolaus his troupes of women ; Marcion , his Minion , sent before him to Rome ; Montanus , his Prisca , & Priscilla ; Ptolomeus , his Flora ; Apelles , his Philomela ; Arius , the Emperours sister ; Donatus , his rich Sucilla ; Elpidus , his Agape ; and Priscilianus , his Galla ; all prophetesses of like spirit with the prophets , all hands and helpers to diuulge their heresies . So in these our later dayes , euery new maister had his mistris , and euery Preacher his partner , all participant of the same spirit ; thus had Dulcinus his Margaret ; Luther his Catherine ; Caluin his Ideletta Buraea ; Beza his Candida ; and euery new Doctour , as Carolostadius , Oecolampadius , Bucerus , Martyr , Sanctius ( and who not ? ) euery one his sister , and yoake-fellow in the spirit of the Lord. Out of all which I conclude & argue thus . That spirit cannot be a fit interpreter of scripture , nor a sufficient iudge of controuersyes , which is a spirit of euery one 's owne hart , a spirit blind , lying , vaine , and deceitfull , a spirit seducing men , & women , a spirit which separates from the society of the faythfull , and infers a woe and indignation of God. But such is the priuate spirit which in the old Law seduced false Prophets , and in the new Law deludeth the false Preachers , as holy Scripture of the former , & experience of the later doe both testify : Therfore this priuate spirit cannot be a sufficient iudge of Fayth , & a fit interpreter of holy Scripture . Out of Iob 32. declaring in Eliu , his friends spirit , the manner of proceeding of this priuate spirit . SECT . V. A Fifth proofe is out of Iob 32. The patience of Iob hauing beene tryed in the losse of his cattle , his family , his children , and in the vexation of his body , & vpbraiding by his wife , was after all this assaulted by his friends . These ( sayth the Glosse ) represent the fashions of Heretikes , who vnder the shew of aduising , vse the arte of seducing ; for which , Iob before he began to dispute with them , sayd , he would shew them to be Fabricatores mendacij , & cultores falsorum dogmatum . 13.4 . Framers of lies , and worshipers of false opinions . Of these , three of them being conuinced by the speaches of Iob , and made silent therby , the fourth , Eliu the Busite , a young man of a more feruent spirit , the sonne of Ram , that is , Excelsus , or Proud , a new maister , riseth vp angry against Iob , because he sayd , he was iust before God , v. 2. & against his friends , because they could not answere Iob with reason v. 3.5 . And beginning first to commend himselfe , and his silence : Because I was young , I was affraid to speake ; and then to condemne his elders , saying , That the ouldest are not the wisest , neither doe the old wen vnderstand iudgment ; And lastly ( to shew of what race he is come , and to our purpose ) he sayes : As I see the spirit is in man , and the inspiration of the omnipotent doth giue vnderstanding , v. 8. and I also will answere my part , and will shew my knowledge ; for I am full of wordes , and the spirit of my belly streyneth me : behould my belly is as new wine , without a vent , which breaketh new vessels . I will speake , and take breath a little ; I will open my lippes , and will answere . v. 18.19.20 . God hath made me , as he hath made thee , chap. 33. v. 6. Heare yee wise mē my words , and yee learned harken to me . cap. 34. v. 2. Heere is a description of a new spirit , and of one full of it , a Caluinist , or Puritan in the highest degree , he hath the spirit of God , the inspiration of the Omnipotent , vnderstanding aboue others ; his belly is full of the spirit , and words , seeking vent , as wine out of a new vessell ; he will speake , talke , and answere that , which his Auncestours and wise men could not ; he hath reason , which they had not ; he is inspired by the Omnipotent , which they are not ; he is inspired that Iob is vniust , because he sayd , He was iust before God. v. 2. that the ancients are destitute of wisedome and iudgment , of the spirit of God , of all truth & verity ; that he hath the spirit of truth , and that all truth is to be learned of him ; this spirit , in a hoat Puritan , sayth , as Sedechias the false Prophet ( who had a lying spirit in his mouth ) sayd to Micheas the true Prophet : Hath the spirit of the Lord left me , and hath it spoken to thee ? No sure ; for the spirit of God hath forsaken the whole Church ( to which yet it was promised by Christ ) so that it hath erred , is fallen , and become Antichristian ; but the spirit is certainly in me , it infallibly teaches me truth , tels me the meaning of scripture , assures , me of saluation ; it cannot depart from me , and my mouth , & the mouth of my seed for euer : thus sayth the Caluinist out of his spirit , as this Eliu , and Sedechias sayd out of theirs . Out of which I argue thus , That spirit which is the same with the spirit of these false Prophets , who were so seduced and armed by it , against the Saintes and Prophets of God , cannot be a fit spirit to interprete Scripture , iudge of doctrin and to make a sole ground of beliefe : but such is the priuate spirit now , and alwayes hath beene in all former Heretiks and false Prophets , therefore it cannot be a fit iudge of controuersies , and an infallible interpreter of Scriptures . Out of Tit. 3.10 . shewing the spirit of an Hereticke . SECT . VI. THE sixth proofe is taken out of an admonition giuen by S. Paul , against Heretikes , Tit. 3.10 . in these wordes : A man that is an Heretike , after the first , and second admonition auoid , knowing that he , that is such an one , is subuerted , & sinneth , being condemned by his owne iudgement . In which wordes we are to note . First , who is an Heretike , that is to be auoided . 2. The reason why he is to be auoided . First therfore as Heresy is a voluntary errour in the vnderstanding against some verity of Fayth , obstinatly defended by him who hath once belieued ; so an Heretike is he , who hauing once professed the Christian fayth , doth erre in some article of it , & doth with obstinacy defend his errour : for which is requisite . 1. That he haue receaued the Christian fayth , at least in Baptisme by professing it . 2. That he erre in some point , or points of fayth , not in al , for then he is an Apostata . 3. That he be obstinate in his opinion , or errour , of which sort , are not they who according to S. Augustine , defend their opinions , though false and peruerse , with no stubborne stomack , or obstinate hart , especially if it be such as themselues by bold presumption broached not , but receaued it of their deceaued parents : and doe seeke the truth warily and carefully , being ready to be reformed , if they find it such . These are not to be reputed among obstinate Heretikes . But those according to the same S. Augustine : Who in the Church of God haue any crazed and peruerse opinion , if being admonished to be of a sound and right opinion , they resist obstinatly , and will not amend their pestiferous opinions , but persist in the defence of them , are thereby become Heretikes , going forth out of the Church , and are counted for enemies that exercise vs. Againe : He i● an Heretike , that when the doctrine of the Catholike fayth is made plaine and manifest to him , had rather resist it , and chose that which himselfe held . According to whome , and the Doctours of our tyme , he is sayd to be obstinate in heresy , who willing , & witting doth maintaine any thing against the Catholike Church , or which is all one , who knowes and reflectes that his opinion is contrary to the sentence of the Catholike Church , and yet neglecting the authority of the Church , which proposeth it for true , doth persist in his opinion . And this is an Heretike , who after admonition being growne thus obstinate , is to be auoyded , reiected , and refuted . Secondly , the reason why we are to auoyd an Heretike is , because that such an one sinneth in obstinacy , and is subuerted without hope of amendement , being condemned by his owne iudgement , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , sayth Tertullian : Because he chose that , for which he is damned , by willfully adherring to his owne opinion , and conceit , where the origen of his sinne , subuersion and condemnation is his prefering his owne selfe-seeming conceit , before the determination of the whole Church of God ; which is proper to those who rely vpon their owne spirit , and prefer it before all , euen the whole Church of God. Out of which it followes first , that the origen of all heresies , is a mans owne proper and priuate conceit , which he preferring before the iudgement of the whole Church , chooseth to follow his owne opinion , rather then the determination of the Church . And out of this I argue thus . All who rely and build vpon their owne priuate spirit , iudgement , and opinion , for matters of fayth & religion , preferring it before the sentence of the whole Church and Pastours of it , are Heretikes sinnefull , subuerted , & to be auoided , according to S. Paul : but such are all those , who make their priuate spirit the rule , and iudge of their fayth , religion , and exposition of Scripture , as is apparent , because neglecting the direction of the spirit of God , which directs his whole Church , they preferre before it their own priuate spirit , which directs themselues ; therefore are iustly condemned , and so to be auoided as Heretikes . Out of diuers places of Scripture , condemning the relying vpon our owne iudgement . SECT . VII . THE last proofe which I will vse , is out of these places of Scripture , which as in generall they exhort vs not to be wise in our owne conceit , nor to trust in our owne opinion & iudgement : so in particuler they do condemne this relying of euery man vpon his priuate spirit , which is nothing els , but his conceit and opinion . First the Wiseman sayth : (a) Leane not vpon thy owne prudence , be not wise in thy owne conceit . (b) The way of a foole is right in his owne eyes , but he that is wise , heareth counsaile . (c) There is a way that seemeth to a man iust , but the later end thereof leades to death● . I say sayth : (d) VVoe to you that are wise in your owne eyes , and prudent before your selues . Moyses sayth : (e) You shall not doe there the thinges that we do heere this day , euery man that which seemeth good to himselfe . Of all which S. Paul giues a reason , and denounceth a punishment , because (f) hauing not glorified God , they are become vaine in their imaginations , and their foolish hart hath beene hardened ; for saying of themselues , that they be wise , they are become fooles . And (g) to them that are of contention , & obey not the truth wrath , and indignation . (h) In the flame of fire giuing reuenge to thē that know not God , and that obey not the Ghospell . Out of which places I argue thus : They who leane on their owne prudence , are wise in their owne conceit , are vpright in their owne eyes , are wise and prudent before themselues , doe that which seemes good to themselues , say , themselues are wise ; these become vaine , foolish , contentious , hard-harted , know not God , obey not truth , resist the Ghospell , and are cursed , according to holy Scripture . But such are all they who in mysteries of fayth , in matters of religion , and in expositions of Scripture forsake the direction of the spirit of God , promised and giuen to his Church , and rely and depend vpon their own spirit , or self seeming conceit , who by it choose their fayth , and vpon it ground their saluation , as all Protestants do who are guided by this priuate spirit : therefore in this miserable , and desperate case of ignorance , vanity , folly , obstinacy , and cursednes are all those who in their fayth , religion , and exposition of Scripture , are thus guided , directed , and instructed by their priuate spirit . And if these sayinges of Scripture be verified in affaires morall or domesticall , publique or politique , which are in the compasse of our naturall iudgement , & reason ( of which they are properly vnderstood ) and in which experience also teaches , that they who in any arte , science , or negotiation , most rely vpon their owne iudgement , and follow their owne wayes , do often commit the greatest errours , and fall into the deepest dangers ; wheras they , who are aduised by others , and goe the ordinary way , doe for the most part proceed more securely , and succeed more prosperously : Then much more is the verity of them confirmed in mysteries of fayth , which are aboue our capacity ; in verities of religion , which are not measured by reason ; and in explication of Scripture , which is a (a) booke sealed , and that (b) with seauen seales , which none in heauen or earth could open , or looke vpon , but the Lambe , (c) nor any spirit interprete it , but that which did make it . In all which euery mans proper iudgement must needes be weake , and euery ones priuate spirit doubtfull , whether it can attaine to the true and proper vnderstanding of them . All which is confirmed by the authority of that famous Doctour S. Augustine , who sayth : Quis mediocriter intelligens , non plané viderit , &c. VVho , though of meane capacity , doth not plainely see , that it is more profitable and secure , for the simple to obey the wise , then to liue according to ones owne direction : and if this course be safer in small matters , as in tilling of ground , marrying of wiues , education of children , and ordering of ones family : much more it is in religion ; for humane thinges are more easy to be knowne , and in diuine things there is more danger of sinne , and offence . And againe : No science or trade , though meane and easy , is learned without a Maister ; what therefore can be more audacious , and temerarious , then to seeke to vnderstand bookes of diuine mysteries , without Interpreters ? And againe : Men to vnderstand a Poet , do seeke for a maister , Asper , Cornutus , Donatus , and others : and darest thou without a guide , aduenture vpon the diuine bookes , which be full of diuine mysteries , as all confesse ? and darest thou giue thy iudgement , or interpretation of them ? And thus is this priuate spirit , defining of fayth , decyding of controuersies , and determining of religion , confuted by authority of holy Scripture , expresly confuting and condemning it , and the aforesayd function assigned to it . He who wil see more testimonies to proue the right Iudge of controuersies , and the infallible interpreter of Scripture , which are the authority of Gods holy Church , and the chiefe Pastours of it ; let him read Bellarmine , where he shall see the practise and testimony of antiquity , and the euidence of reason , all at large cited for the same . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS INTERPRETING OF HOLY SCRIPTVRE , AND Iudging of Mysteries , and Controuersies of Fayth , confuted by the testimony of holy Fathers . CHAP. III. WE haue confuted this pretended power , and authority of the priuate spirit , by the authority of Gods holy Word ; it remaines that we do the same by the testimony of ancient holy Fathers . For which we may note , that as S. Augustin alleadging the Fathers before him against the Pelagians , sayd : That he would not assume to himselfe to alleadge the sentences of all Fathers , nor yet all the sentences of them whome he alleadged ; but some sayings of some few , which yet are such as will cause our aduersaries to blush , and yield , if eyther feare of God , or shame of man , will ouercome so great an obstinacy in them . So we will not vndertake to alleadge either all the Fathers , or al the testimonies of those ▪ whom we alleadge , no more then we haue done al the Prophets or Apostles , or all the authorities of them whome we haue cyted ( which labour in both , we leaue to thē , who are more expert in both ; ) yet I hope we haue collected some , and those in euery age such , as being wel pondered , & seriously discussed may suffice to satisfy the Reader , that in their iudgement , this priuate spirit is an vnfit Interpreter of holy Scripture , and an vnable iudge to decide matters of Fayth . Secondly , we may note , that though none of the ancient Fathers did in particuler write of this subiect , nor yet on set purpose confute it : yet these sayinges and sentences of theirs sought , and picked out , as so many dispersed flowers of their seuerall gardens , and coupled togeather as into one nose-gay , may serue for a taste of their generall opinions , & iudgement in this matter , especially since their assertions were neuer contradicted , nor their persons euer censured by any for them . Thirdly , we may note , that those Fathers , who doe either attribute this prerogatiue of interpreting Scripture to the Church or Pastours of it ( as the most cyted by Bellarmine before quoted doe ) or derogate the same from all humane , and proper wit and iudgement ( as some of these heere cyted in their words do ) do both of them as much , as if in expresse tearmes they had done it , condemne this priuate spirit , and power of it , as incompetent for a Iudge of Fayth : 1. because they who interprete Scripture , and assigne the Fathers , Councells , or Church for approued and authorized Iudges in this case , must needs condemne those who forsake them , and oppose themselues and their iudgement against them : which all they doe , who rely vpon their priuate spirit , and prefer their iudgement of it , before the iudgement of the Church , and Fathers . 2. Because all who are guided by this priuate spirit , and rely vpon it , doe in effect rely vpon their owne iudgement , and opinion ; and so either erroneously mistaking themselues , or abusing the spirit , do insteed of the spirit of God , make their owne conceit , fancy , or imagination the iudge and vmpire of all . These being supposed we will descend to particulers , and cyte some of these Fathers and their testimonies in thei● seuerall ages . First therefore to begin● 〈◊〉 the first age of the Apostles , & to descend downe 〈◊〉 . S Clement (a) the scholer of S. Paul , and coetaneall with the Apostles , sayth : It is to be obserued , that when the law of God is read , it ought not to be read or vnderstood , according to the meaning of euery mans owne wit ; for there are many thinges in holy Scripture , which may be wrested to that meaning , which euery one volūtarily presumes to frame to himselfe : but this cannot be . Loe , the sense which euery ones wit and iudgement , which they call their spirit , presumes to frame , cannot be a true and infallible sense of Scripture . In the second age ; Irenaeus a Doctour and Martyr ( whō S. Hierome calles , Virum Apostolicum , an Apostolicall man ) speaking of the Heretiks of his tyme , sayth : Euery (b) one sayth , that his owne fiction , which he hath deuised of himselfe , is wisedome , & that he vndoubtedly , vnspottedly , and sincerely doth know the hiddē mysteries . These Heretikes made the inuention of their own braine , the vndoubted spirit of wisedome , to vnderstand the hidden mysteries of Fayth . Tertullian speaking of Heretikes who differ among themselues , sayth : Euery (c) one doth tune what he receaues , according to his owne liking ; in the same manner as he , who taught them , made it according to his owne liking . Againe , shewing that diuersity of doctrine brings corruption of scripture , he sayth : They (d) who are resolued to teach otherwise then the Church , must change the meanes of doctrine , that is scripture ; since , how came the heretikes to be strangers and enemies to the Apostles , but by the diuersity of doctrine which euery one , according to his owne liking , either made or receaued ? Againe : VVho (e) are rauenous wolues , but subtill senses and spirits , that lye close to molest the flocke of Christ ? VVho are false Prophets , but false Preachers ? VVho are false Apostles , but adulterous Ghospellers ? Againe : (f) He is to be counted an Heretike , who forsaking that which was first , doth choose to himselfe that which was not before . Againe : Heresy is called in Greek of Election , by which one chooseth to beginne , or follow it : therefore S. Paul sayd , that therefore an Heretike was damned , because he chose to himselfe that , for which he is damned . It is not lawfull for vs , to introduce any thing vpon our owne opiniō , nor to follow that which others introduced vpon their owne opinion . And (g) he calles Adams sin , an Heresy , because he chose it rather vpon his owne , then Gods election . Heere are deceitful spirits , euery one 's owne spirit , liking , will , purpose , resolution , opinion and election described to be that which makes men Heretikes , and strangers from God , rauenous Wolues , false Prophets , and adulterous Ghospellers , and damned Heretikes , and changes the sense of Scripture . Out of which the same Tertullian (h) affirmes , That heresy is a matter of humanae temerity , not diuine authority , which alwayes so amends the Ghospell , vntill it corrupt it . That all doctrine is true ( not which came from a priuate spirit , but ) which agrees with the Apostolicall mother , and originall Churches ; and that is without doubt to be held , which the Church receaued from the Apostles , the Apostles from Christ , Christ from God ; all other doctrine is preiudicated , as that which sauoureth against the verity of the Church of Christ. Againe : That (i) to deale with Heretikes by Scriptures , is but to turne ones stomacke , or breake his braine , to loose his speach by contending , & to rayse choler by hearing their blasphemy ; since what the most expert Scripturist can alleadge they will deny , and what he denies they will defend , eyther by denying Scripture , or by adding , or detracting from it . Valentinus , sayth he , receaued that which was most for his purpose , and formed the Scriptures to his owne opinions , but not his opinions to Scripture . And so , as S. Augustine saies : They (k) contend not for the true meaning of Scripture , but for their owne opinions , making that which is the opinion of their owne , to be the meaning of Scripture . In the third age , Clemens Alexand. in his learned bookes Stromatum , which he wrote ( according to Baron . ) anno 204. shewing not only that Heretikes alleadge Scripture , but also how they vse it , sayth : Though (l) they who follow heresies , presume to vse the propheticall Scriptures , yet they neither vse all of them , nor these they vse entirely , but choosing those sayings which are doubtfull , they draw them to their owne priuate opinions . This is one of the chiefest sleightes of this their priuate spirit , to wrest doubtfull sentences to their owne aduantage , & make that which is vncertaine in it selfe , certaine , and a point of Fayth . In the same age , S. Cyprian , that Doctor suauissimus , & Martyr beatissimus , as (m) S. August . calles him ; speaking of some whome the Diuell leades from one blindnes of the world , to another darkenesse of errour , sayth : They (n) call themselues Christians , and while they walke in darknes , they thinke they are in light , the Diuell flattering and deceauing them , who transfigures himselfe into an Angell of light , and subornes his owne Ministers , as Ministers of iustice , affirming night to be day , damnation to be saluation , and shadowing desperation vnder pretence of hope , & perfidiousnes vnder pretence of Faith , Antichrist vnder the name of Christ . Againe , shewing how heresies and schismes arise out of disobedience of the people , to one Pastour , and Iudge in place of Christ , he sayth : No (o) man should make any stirre against the colledge of Priests ; no man , after diuine iudgement , after the suffrage of the people , after the consent of fellow-Bishops , should make himselfe iudge , not now of the Bishop , but of God. No man should deuide the vnity of Christs Church by discord ; & being proud should by himselfe coyne and set abroad a new heresy . Againe : (p) The beginning and endeauour of Heretikes , and Schismatikes , is to please themselues , and to contemne their Superiour , with swelling pride ; they goe out of the Church , and set vp a new Altar , breake peace and vnity . Againe : In (q) doctrine as well diuine as philosophicall , it is neyther safe nor fit that persons vnlearned , and ignorant of that which belonges to those sciences , should venture to discusse that they know not , and to be maisters of what they are ignorant . In all which the effect of the priuate spirit is described to be ; to question & examine that which is determined by Bishops and Councels , to make it selfe iudge of all , to diuide the vnity of the Church , to broach new heresies , and in conceit and respect of it selfe , to contemne all superiority , to teach that they know not , and to be maisters of what they vnderstand not . In the fourth age , S. Ambrose a man so worthy , that S. Augustine (r) reuerenced him as his Father , who begot him in Christ ; so praysed him , that he not only , calles him happy , & the flower of latin writers , but all the Roman world ( sayth he ) with me admire him , his grace , constancy , labours , & perils , both in workes and wordes : Yea ( sayth he ) Pelagius the Heretike so extolled him , that he durst not reprehend him , & his exposition of Scripture , but acknowledged that in his bookes , aboue others did shine the brightnesse of the Roman fayth . This holy Saint and Doctour sayth : Those (s) are Heretikes , who by the wordes of the law , impugne the law ; for they set a proper sense vpon the wordes , that they may commend the wickednesse of their owne opinion , by the authority of the law . Againe : It (t) is a very dangerous thing , if after so many prophesies of the Prophets , after the testimonies of the Apostles , after the bloud of Martyrs , thou darest presume to discusse the ancient faith as new ; after so many guides , dost remaine in errour , and after the toiles of so many departed this life , darest contend in idle disputation : let vs reuerence therefore our owne Fayth in the glory of Martyrs . Heere is this priuate spirit , and two effects of it ; the one to interprete Scripture , according to euery mans owne liking ; the other to examine , and question againe that which hath beene iudged by the Pastours of Gods Church , and to censure them , and their iudgement ; both condemned by S. Ambrose . S. Hierome , one whome Prosper calles , Vitae (u) exemplum & mundi magistrum . An example of life , and the maister of the world ; whome S. Augustine (w) calles , One most learned & skillfull in three tongues , desires to conferre with him , to adhere to him , and to be instructed by him , sent his books to be censured of him , and commended others , as Orosius (x) who trauelled for that end from Spaine to Palestine to learn of him . And whome Damasus (y) the Pope , and many from all the partes of the world , consulted with , about obscure places of Scripture . This great lampe of Gods Church sayth : Heretikes (z) whatsoeuer they speake , they thinke it to be the word , or the law , neither doe they vouchsafe to know what the Apostles or Prophets thought : but doe apply certaine incongruous testimonies to their owne sense and meaning , as though it were not a great & most wicked manner of teaching , to depraue the sentences of Scripture , and to draw them contrary to their sense , vnto their owne will. A deuise proper to this spirit , to thinke all it sayes to be Scripture , and to wrest all scripture to its owne liking . Againe , he sayth : That (a) Heretikes , of the guifts of Nature , haue made to themselues Idols , not which they receaued of God , but which they made out of their owne braine . That (b) they haue turned the holy speaches , and senses of Scripture into Idols , which they haue framed out of their owne heart . That (c) hauing lost their iudgement , they worship the Idols which they haue framed of their owne hart , and are possessed with the spirit of spirituall fornication . That (d) of the sense of Scripture , they haue made Idols of diuers opinions , and abominations of offences . That (e) they vse the diuine wordes , and testimonies to their owne sense ; and do giue them to drinke to those whome they deceaue , and with whome they haue fornicated . That (e) in all questions , they follow not the authority of Scripture , but the opinion of human reason . That (g) they snatch certaine sentences out of Scripture , and sowing them togeather , doe set them to that matter to which they cannot agree ; and so do set them , as pillowes vnder euery ones elbow to delude them . Thus (h) doe ( sayth he ) all heresies deceaue , and draw to death , by faire promises , all sortes of ages , and sexes , giuing them not solid bread of Scripture , but broken , and cut peeces of crummes . Thus (i) did the Manichees , Gnostikes , & Marcion take testimonyes out of the pure fountaine of Scripture , but did not interpret them , as they were written , but cōuerted the simple meaning of Gods word , to signify that which themselues would haue . All (k) this they did , bragging of their receauing the spirit of God , which yet they had not ; but the spirit of the Diuell , by which they were carryed into diuers factions . Such an Angell and diabolicall spirit did possesse , and fill Philomela Apelles his virgin . Cōcerning which spirit he concludes , that , It (l) is called Heresy , ab 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of election , by choosing euery one that doctrine , which seemes to him better , vnderstanding the Scripture otherwise , then the Holy Ghost meant it , by which he is an Heretike . The sūme of which gathered out of these dispersed places , is , that all Heretikes being deceaued by the spirit , by their owne opinion , and their owne selfe seeming conceit , do choose to themselues what sense of Scripture seemes most pleasing to them , and therby make it an Idoll of their owne inuention , by which they deceaue themselues , and delude others . Eusebius (m) confirmes the same , saying of the Seuerians , That , they interpret the sense of Scripture according to their owne liking . In the fifth age S. Augustine , one so highly commended both by ancient Fathers , and late Protestants , that ( as before is at full cyted ) they both count him , as a maister of all learning , as a fountaine incorrupted , a Doctour among the Interpreters of Scripture , as a Sunne among Planets , as the greatest of the Fathers , the worthiest Deuine that euer Gods Church had . This great Doctour , and Saint sayth : Heresies (n) haue no other origen then this , that euery Heretike prefers his owne opinion , drawne from his owne proper spirit , before the commō opinion of the Church . Againe : Nothing (o) makes them Heretiks but this , that misvnderstanding the Scriptures , they obstinatly defend their owne opinions . The (p) holy Scripture is dangerous to these who will wrest it to their owne peruerse hart , who whē they ought to liue according to the will of God , they liue according to their owne will ; and they will haue that to be the meaning of Scripture , which is their owne , when that which is the Scriptures , ought to be theirs . Againe : (ç) Thy truth , O Lord , is neyther myne , nor this mans ▪ or that mans , but all mens whom thou callest publickly to the communiō of it , and whereby thou dost terribly admonish vs , that we seeke not to haue truth priuate , least we be depriued of it ; for whosoeuer doth challenge to himselfe that which thou dost propose to be enioyed by all , and will make that proper to himselfe which is common to all , that man is driuen from the common to his owne proper , that is , from truth to falsehood . Wherupō he reprehends (q) the Pelagians , because they vnderstood the Scripturs according to their own priuate sense : the Donatists , because (r) eyther by too much louing their owne opinion , or enuying their betters , they went so farre vpon their diabolicall presumption , as sacrilegiously to separate holy communion , and bring in schisme or heresy : and the Manichies ; You (s) see that your worke is to take away all authority from Scripture , and make euery mans mind and conceit , authour of what is to be belieued , or not to be belieued in holy Scripture , that is , that you will not subiect your selues to Scripture , but will make Scripture subiect to your selues . Thus doth S. Augustine condemne this spirit , for that it doth prefer it selfe , and owne opinion , before the commō iudgement of the Church , doth falsely interprete Scripture , doth draw the meaning of Scripture to its owne wil , yea the will of God to the same . And he condemnes the Pelagians , Donatists , and Manichies , for that by it they expounded Scripture , and deuided themselues from the communion of holy Church . With S. Augustine , agrees Cyrill of Alexandria : (t) Heretikes should do well if they would seeke the true sense of Scripture , and not turne all according to their owne will. And with them both , Vincentius Lyrinensis : If (u) any would seems a Prophet or Maister , that is , maister of spirituall thinges , let him chiefly desire vnity , and equality , that is , that he do not prefer his owne opinion before others , nor doe departe from the generall opinions of all men . Because (w) all doe not take the holy Scripture in one and the same sense ; some do interprete one way , others another way , the same sentences , so that as many senses are made , as there be men . Therefore it is very necessary by reason of many turninges and windinges of errours , that the line of Catholicall , and Apostolicall interpretation be directed , according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sense . Heere is aduise giuen not to wrest all to our owne liking , and spirit , but to keep vnity , and direct the interpretation of Scripture according to the rule of Catholike sense . After all these , Venerable (x) Beda , the honour of our Nation , in the eight age , sayth : As the Prophets did write , deliuer , and speake , not their owne wordes , but the wordes of God ; so also the Reader of them , must not vse his owne proper interpretation , least he decline from the sense of the truth . Therfore we affirme , that no man presume to expound Scriptures , according to his owne pleasure . What more plaine ? I will adde to these the testimonyes of Luther and Caluin vttered in confutation of others , but against themselues . Luther ( x ) (z) speaking against Swenkfeldius , sayth : It must not trouble vs , that some do glorify of the spirit , and little esteeme the Scriptures . But , sayth Luther , good friend , the spirit goes this way , & that way : I also was in spirit , and haue seene spirits , if I may glory of my owne , perhaps more , then they shall see in a yeare ; and my spirit doth shew it selfe in something , where theirs is yet in a corner . Note , that the Swenkfeldians , and the Caluinists agree , in that both of them rely on the Spirit , and make it the ground of their Fayth : they differ , in that the former refuse scripture , and rely only on the spirit ; these later admit scripture , but , both for canon and sense of it , subiect it to their spirit : so that the spirit in the one reiects scripture , in the other it censures , and Lordes it ouer scripture . Whether is worse , let any be iudge . Caluin also speaking of the same Swenkfeldians , sayth : If that spirit was good , it would be the same with the spirit of the Apostles , and ancient faythfull people , but their spirit would not be iudg without scripture : so say we ; If Caluins , or the Caluinist spirit were true , it would be the same with the spirit of the ancient Church and Fathers . Also against the Vbiquitarians , he sayth : Satan (a) hath bewitched their mindes with horrible witchery &c. And , Satan by turbulent spirits doth endeauour &c. Mans (b) hart hath so many secret places of vanity , is subiect to so many holes of lyes , is couered with so much fraudulent hypocrisie , that it often deceaues it selfe . Againe : Many (c) false Doctours belye , or counterfeite the title of the spirit ; many mad men start vp , who rashely make ostentation , that they are endued with the spirit of God. They (d) are fooles who amazed at the honourable title of the spirit , dare not enquire after the matter it selfe . Many (e) braggo of the spirit , yet speake in their owne priuate name , goe out in their owne name , vtter out of their owne sense . Thus do these Patrons , & practisers of this priuate spirit wound themselues , in thus stabbing the same in their aduersaries . For what they affirme against them , is verified against themselues . But what can these Spiritualists ( as we may call them ) say to all these testimonies of Fathers ? Or rather what shall we say to them about the same ? I conceaue nothing can be sayd better , then that which S. Augustine in the like case of originall sinne , sayth against the like Heretikes the Pelagians : for hauing cyted most of the Doctours before his tyme , both of the Greeke and Latin Church , as Irenaeus , Athanasius , Cyrill , Nazianzen , Chrysostome , Basil , Olympius , Reticius , & fourteene more , whose workes are not now extant , as Eulogius , Ioannes Ammonianus , Porphyrius , Fidus , Zozimus , Zoboenus , Nimphidius , Cromatius , Iouinus , Eleutherius , Clematius all greeke Doctours ; and Cyprian , Hilary , Ambrose , Innocentius , yea Hierome , of his owne tyme , all Doctours of the Latin Church , and all to proue originall sinne , and necessity of grace , against Iulian the Pelagian , he speaketh of the Fathers in this manner : These (f) Fathers I haue cyted , & no more , least it should be too tedious to read them , yet such , as are not so light , that you may scorne to weigh thē , yea so great , that you may groane vnder the burthen of them . These (g) are they , whose so great consent ought to moue you , and who are not a conspiracy , as you call them , of ill tongued men , but who flourished in the Catholike Church , are sound in doctrine , and armed with spirituall weapons ; who fought stoutly against heretickes , and haue passed ouer their labours and slept in the bosome of peace : VVho (h) hauing liued holily , and ouercome the errours of their tyme , and departed gloriously out of this world , before you came into it . These (i) though they were not then present , when this Controuersie began , and is now on foot , & so could not by word of mouth giue a definitiue sentence ; yet when they wrote , and sayd these thinges , they were then such as had not any either friendship , or falling out with you or vs. They were angry , neither at you , nor vs , had compassion of neither . What they found in the Church , they kept ; what they learned , they teached ; what they receaued from their Fathers , they deliuered to their children . You and we did not plead before these Iudges , and yet they decyded our cause ; neither you nor we were knowne to them , and yet we do produce their verdict for vs , against you ; we did not about this matter contend with you , and yet they pronounce vs victors . That (k) which they belieue we belieue ; what they teach , we teach ; what they preach , we preach ; yield to them and yield to vs ; consent with them , and consent with vs : if you will not by them be a friend to vs , yet be not for vs an enemy to them , which yet you must be , if you remaine in this errour , therfore leaue it , and leane to them . Can (l) Pelagius , and Celestius ( Luther and Caluin ) so farre preuaile with you , that for them you dare forsake so many , and so great ancient Doctours , and defenders of the Catholike fayth ouer all the world ? Hath tyme made such a confusion of great and small matters ? Is darkenes so become light , and light darkenes , that Pelagius , Celestius , Iulianus &c. do see ; and Hilary , Gregory , Nazianzen , Ambrose &c. are blind ? VVere (m) it not better to yield to them , who are better and stronger , and to maister your owne presumption , then to insist vpon your owne animosity and conceit , which you desire should preuaile , because it is your owne ? VVere (n) it not better to yield to these Christian Doctours , or rather to Christ in them , and to restore your selfe to them , from whome you are departed ? How (o) gratefull would these be to you , if you did belieue the Catholike fayth : and how terrible must they needes be against you , when you oppugne the same Catholike Fayth , which they sucked from the teat , which they eate with their meate , which for milke and meate they gaue to little ones , and great ones , which they plainely and stoutly defended against their enemies , euen you not then borne ? By such planters , waterers , builders , Pastours , nurses , the Holy Church increased , therefore stood amazed at the prophane termes of your nouelty , and as the head of a serpent , abhorred , troad vnder foot , bruised and kickt away your new opinions , which did lurke , and crawle to deceaue the virginity of the Catholike Church , and corrupt the chastity of it , which it hath in Christ , as did the Serpent seduce Eue. The Fayth of these is to be defended against you , as is the Ghospell , against wicked and professed enemies of Christ ; euen that Catholike and Christian fayth , which as it was first deliuered in Scriptures , so by these Fathers it hath beene hitherto kept and defended , and shall by Gods grace , euer be kept and defended . Thus S. Augustine against the Pelagians , & their new doctrine , for the Fathers ; and thus we against the Protestantes , and their priuate spirit , and new doctrine , for the same . And this may suffice for the testimonies of Fathers . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS INTERPRETATION OF HOLY SCRIPTVRE , Deciding of Controuersies , and iudging of matters of Fayth ; Confuted by Reasons drawne from the difficulty of discerning of Spirits . CHAP. IIII. Of the diuersity of Spirits . SECT . I. IN the former Chapters we haue confuted the Protestāt priuate spirit by authorityes of holy Scripture , and by testimonies of ancient Fathers : it remaines that we doe the like by euidence of reason ; and in this Chapter , by reasons drawne frō the difficulty of discerning of spirits , of which if the priuate spirit be not able to discerne and iudge which be good or bad , which true or false ; much lesse is it able to discerne & iudge the motions and effects of them , that is , which Scripture , & the sense of it , is true or false , which fayth and doctrine is good or bad . For the better vnderstanding of which difficulty of discerning of Spirits , we may note first how many sortes of varieties and distinctions of spirits there be . 1. According to the nature and property of spirits , S. Gregory distinguishes them thus . Some are without mixture of body , some with mixture . Spirits without mixture , are either increate , as God the Father a spirit , God the Sonne a spirit , God the Holy Ghost a spirit , all one God , al one spirit , good without quality , great without quantity , euery where without place , alwayes without tyme , doing all without action , mouing al without motion , containing all , and contained in nothing , and present in all by his essence , power , and presence , and yet aboue all : or els create , which are either happy in glory as the Angells in heauen , which are as (a) administring spirits for vs ; or els damned in hell , as the Diuels , who as (b) roaring Lyons seeke to deuoure vs : both which doe differ either in specie or kind , or at the least in degrees of power and greatnes , some being in the highest , some in the midle , some in the lowest Hierarchy , euery Hierarchy hauing his order , and euery order his particuler Angels , and Diuels belonging to it . Spirits mixt with bodies & flesh , are either such as are mixed with flesh , and dye with it , as the sensuall soule of birds and beastes ; or such as are mixt with flesh , but dye not with it , as the reasonable soule of man , which is a meane betweene Angells to whome he is inferiour , and beastes to whome he is superiour , communicating with the one in the immortality of soule , with the other in mortality of flesh . 2. According to their estate , and condition ; these spirits are some good , as God , Angels & Saints ; others bad , as Diuels & men wicked , aliue , or damned in hell ; others indifferēt , as the natural spirit of man , and sensuall of beastes : some are blessed in heauen , as Angells and Saints , others damned in hell , as Diuels , and the damned soules ; others in the way , and out of danger , as the soules in purgatory ; or in the way and in danger , as the soules of men liuing ; some are meere intellectuall , as God and Angells ; others more sensuall , as beasts ; others rationable mixed of both , as man ; some alwayes without bodyes , as Angels and Diuels ; others alwayes with bodyes , as beastes and birdes ; others sometymes with body , and sometymes without , as the soule of man liuing , or dead , before and after resurrection . 3. According to the effect and operation , S. Bernard distinguishes six kindes of spirits . 1. Diuine , of God , (c) the spirit is God. 2. Angelicall , of Angels , (d) he hath made spirits his Angells , which alwayes worke good . 3. Diabolical , of the Diuell , (e) he sent immissions by euill Angells . 4. Carnall , of the flesh , (e) puffed vp by the sense of the flesh . 5. Worldly of the world , (f) you haue not receaued the spirit of this world , which worke alwayes bad . 6. Humane , of man , (h) the spirit of man which is in man , which of all is indifferent , and when it is assisted with grace is good , when stayned with sinne is bad . (g) To which may be added the spirit of truth , and of lying , the spirit of wisedome , and giddines , and the spirit of the knowledge of truth , and errour , of which is spoken before cap. 2. Of which spirits for our purpose , these chiefly are to be noted , that is , the spirit of God , of Angells , of Diuells , and the spirit of the soule of man dead , in heauen , in hell , or in purgatory ; and of man liuing , according to the dictamen , either of our naturall reason , or of the light of diuine fayth and grace . And thus much of the variety and differences of the nature of spirits , which are to be discerned . Secondly , we may note , that these seuerall sortes of spirits haue seuerall sortes of operations in man , and do seuerall wayes manifest and shew themselues in him and to him ; for as in the naturall life of man , besides the powers vegitatiue and sensitiue , by which he liues and moues , God and Nature hath prouided certaine more subtile spirits , that is , the vitall spirits in the hart , which passing through the arteries , do help to vitall operation , as nutrition , and augmentation ; and sensible spirits in the braine , which passing through the veines do assist to the sense of feeling , touching , and the rest : so also in the spirituall life of a Christian man , besides the permanent guifts of the Holy Ghost , and habits of faith , hope , and charity , infused in Baptisme , and Pennance , togeather with grace ; God doth communicate also certaine extraordinary helpes and guifts to the soule , which as certaine beames of his diuine light , and sparkles of his celestiall loue , assist and enable it to a higher knowledge of God , and good thinges , and to a more perfect practise of vertue and perfection : and these are diuine illuminations , inspirations , or visitations and visions , which are of two sortes , the one meere spirituall , and internall ; the other sensible and externall . The first sort of spirituall motions , arise immediatly from foure heads . 1. From God , who ( illuminating the Vnderstanding with a heauenly light , clearely to discerne what is true or false , what good or bad ; inflaming the will with an ardent desire to loue sincerely him and his goodnes , and to doe his holy will and commandement ; and enabling the rest of the faculties with an inuincible fortitude , to performe couragiously what is to his greater honour & glory ) doth , when , or how he pleases , and by meanes , and in tyme best fitting , as prayer , meditation , reading , or such spirituall practises , speake , instruct , and direct the soule by speciall illustrations , inspirations , and confortations . 2. From the good Angell , who by good cogitations and motions , exciting the dulnesse and drowsinesse , conforting the infirmity and weaknes of the soule ; and conseruing the same from danger of enemies , is alwayes ready to assist vs in prayers , and good workes , and to defend vs from all occasions , and temptations . 3. Frō the Spirit of grace , which with the light of fayth , & flame of charity inhabiting in vs , doth continually knock at the dore of our heart , and in our sleep awakes vs , in our sicknesse strengthens vs , in our distraction so recollects vs , that with alacrity we may proceed in all exercises of piety , and with facility ouercome all assaults of our enemy . 4. Frō the Dictamen of reason , and light of nature , which pricked forward by the synderesis of a good conscience , doth as a Preacher continually exhort and moue to a prosecution of good , and an auersion from euill ; and as a Maister doth still direct and instruct vs how to behaue our selues in our combat against the law of sinne , and the Angell of Sathan , which make continuall opposition against it ; all which , as a vigilant watchman , doe still watch at the superiour part of the soule , to wit , the Memory , Will , and Vnderstanding , eyther by an infused light , or by species , formed and framed in the phantasie , and do inwardly knocke , awake , admonish and incite our soule , to the knowledge of truth , & the operation of God. The other sort of Spirits is sensible , and visible , by visions , and apparitions ; and these are sometymes Imaginary , presenting inwardly to the phantasie , and imagination , a shew and apparition either of wordes spoken , or of persons appearing in their own person , or in some other like to thē , or in some figure representing them : others sometymes are Visible and corporall , seene , heard , or felt in some corporall body , formed and framed of the ayre , and assumed & moued by a spirit which in them speakes , walkes , and exercises sensible actions , as though it were a true and liuing person , both which kindes happened often to the Patriarches and Prophets of old , and to many in these later tymes ; sometims waking , sometymes in their sleep , and are both of them , either by way of Oracles ( as S. Augustine calles them ) when some graue person appeares and fortells what is to be done , as did Onias , and Hieremy , to Iudas Machab●us ; or by way of visions , when thinges haue the euent indeed , as they appeare in shew , as happened to S. Peter , who (a) saw an Angell , whē indeed the Angell did free him out of prison ; or by way of Dreames , when apparitions of mysteries are shadowed in figures , not vnderstood in sense and signification , such as was Pharao his Eares of corne , and Nabuchodonoz●r his Statua . All which , whether interiour or exteriour , though they be properly diuine , of God , and good Angels ( of which is frequent mention , and examples both in the old and new Testament ) yet because they are sometymes diabolicall , of the Diuell , who by suggestions and illusions doth imitate them ; and sometymes naturall dispositions or diseases of body , whose affections and imaginations are not much vnlike to them : And because of the later sortes , that is , visions and apparitions , of which is the greatest difficultie , examples in scripture , and ancient histories ( for I will forbeare latter tymes ) are many and authenticall , how sometymes God , sometymes Angells , sometymes Diuells , sometymes Soules out of Limbo , Paradise , Purgatory , Hell , & Heauen haue appeared : therefore I will first produce some examples of euery one , and then shew , what difficulty there is in discerning one of them frō another . 1. For apparitions of God , we haue examples , how he appeared to (a) Adam in Paradise , to (b) Noe in the Arke , to (c) Abraham in Haram , in Mābre , in the mountaine , to (d) Moyses in the fiery bush , in Aegipt , in the mountaine , and in the Tabernacle , and to (e) Agar , in the desert , to (f) Samuel in the Temple , and to all the Prophets , and many of the Patriarches ; in all which it is sayd , Our Lord spake , our Lord appeared , which he did in the shape , now of a man , as to Adam ; now of three men , to Abrahā ; now of a Wrestlar ; to Iacob ; now of a fire , to Moyses ; now of a Cherubim to (g) Ezechiel ; now of (h) a Thorne , to Isaias ; now of (i) an old man in a white Vestement to Daniel , ( though it be more probable , that not God in person , but an Angel representing God , did appeare . ) 2. For apparitions of Angells , we haue exāples expresly of them , how they appeared to (k) Lot , to forewarne him of the destruction of Sodome ; to (l) Iacob , to encourage him against Esau ; to the (m) Israelites , to direct them through the desert ; to (*) Gedeon , to make him Captaine against Madian ; to (n) Tobie ; to accompany him in his iourney ; to (o) Elias , to send him to reprehend Ochozias ; to (p) Dauid , punishing and killing the people ; to (q) Zachary , and to the Virgin Mary , reuealing secret mysteries to thē . Which apparitions , if we respect the place , were made either in the garden , as to our (r) Sauiour ; or in the fieldes as to (s) Iacob ; or in the desert , as to (*) Agar ; or in the house , as to (t) Gedeon ; or in the fornace , as to the three (u) Childrē ; or in the Temple , as to (w) Zachary ; or in prison , as to (x) Peter ; or at the Sepulcher , as to Mary Magdalene . If the state of persons , they were made to our Sauiour himselfe ; to Christians , as S. Peter ; to Iewes , as Ioseph and the Patriarches ; to Gentils , as Heliodorus , and the three Kinges ; to men , as Zachary ; to Women , as the Maries ; to old persons , as Abraham , and Sara ; to young , as Daniel ; to good persons , as Lot ; and bad , as the Sodomites . Also some before Christ , some after Christ , some in Christs tyme , some in the law of Nature , some of grace : so that in all tymes , and at all places , & to all sorts of persons these reuelations of Angells haue bin made . Thirdly , for apparitions of Diuells , ( wherof some are sayd to be Pythonici , or South-sayers , some Paredrij , or Familiars , some Catabolici , or possessors and tormentors of men , some Oniropompi , or dreame makers ) we read of their visible apparitions ( to omit their imaginary ) how they haue appeared often , and in many shapes ; sometymes of Beastes , as of a serpent to (a) Euah , and Leonard of (b) Corbie ; of a Dogge following them , to (c) Simon Magus , and Cornelius Agrippa ; of a Horse , to an Earle of (d) Mascon ; of a Cocke , to (e) S. Pachomius ; of a Crow , to (f) S. Romualdus ; of a Foxe , to (g) S. Hilarion ; of a Dragon , to (h) S. Margaret , and to Gonzales of Castile ; of Lions , Buls , Beares , and Wolues to (i) S. Anthony ; of a Dog , to (k) S. Dunstan ; & ordinarily of a Cat to Witches , and of Wolues (l) to terrify , & of Bees , and flyes to trouble & distract (m) men . Sometimes of men or women , ( and to (n) Apelles like a beautifull woman ) as to our Sauiour Christ , like a Venerable mā (o) in his tentation ; to Saul ( in some opinion ) as (p) Samuel , by the Pythonise ; to (q) S. Martin , as a King with a Diademe ; to a Boy ( in S. Gregory ) as a blacke (r) More ; to S. Robert the Abbot , as a frisled (s) Ruffin ; to S. Maximus , as a Mariner with a ship ; to Euagrius , as a Cleargy man ; to Macarius , as a reaper of corne , and an Apothecary ; to Nathanael , as a Carrier whiping his (*) horse . In all which he alwayes appeared in some deformity , as either in a body blacke , pale , durty , stinking , or terrible , or with a face foule , blacke , and deformed , or with a nose hooked , a mouth wide , eyes hollow , or fiery , feet club or clouen , toes like clawes , or some great deformity of body , as is (t) obserued , God not otherwise permitting it , the better to discouer him ; sometymes in the night to men , eyther waking , as to (u) Luther , when he taught him to abrogate the Masse ; or sleeping , as to (w) Zuinglius , in what colour he knew not , when he taught him to expound the wordes of the Sacrament , figuratiuely ; and to (x) Oecolampadius , when he kild him in his bed : sometymes in the day , as to (y) Carolostadius , when in the pulpit he stood by him ; sometymes he appeared in shape of Saints , Angels , and Christ , and God himselfe , of which see examples afterwardes ; sometymes of Incubi , and Succubi , lying with men , or women , and by art getting of children ; sometyms of Centaur's , Scylla's , Chimera's , Gorgons , Cerberus , Harpyes , and other monsters terrifying mē ; sometymes seeking adoration , to be worshipped as Gods , which they require of Witches ; sometimes shewing a seruiceable obedience , as when to Magiciās they eyther at certaine wordes of Magicke , or at certaine constellations of starres , or vpon certaine dayes of the weeke , as Friday at night , they ryse vp , appeare , and disclose thinges secret , as treasures ; or foretell thinges to come , as the euents of batels , or the like . All which in what shape they please , & to whō God permits , the Diuells performe . Fourthly , for apparitions of soules out of Limbo , before Christ , we haue the examples of Moyses from Limbo , and Elias from Paradise , to our Sauiour , and the three Apostles (z) in the transfiguration ; of Onias the high Priest , and Hieremy (a) the Prophet to Iudas Machabeus ▪ and the people ; of Samuel the Prophet (b) ( according to (*) S. Augustine , and others ) to Saul the King , telling him , sayth Ecclesiasticus , the end of his life , and exalting his voice out of the earth in prophesy , or as it is in the Greeke , after he had slept , or was dead , prophesying . Fifthly , for apparitions of soules out of Purgatory , we haue ancient exampls ; of Paschasius a Deacon seene by Germanus ▪ Capuanus , in the Bath of Angulanus ; of Iustus freed by 30. Masses of his brother Copiosus ; of another helping a Priest at the Bathes , and helped out of Purgatory by his Masses , al three cyted by S. Gregory (c) the Great ; and of the sisters of (d) S. Malachias , and (e) S. Thomas of Aquine , both appearing & relating themselues freed by their Brothers masses . With many other of later tymes , too long to be set downe . Sixthly , for apparitions of the Damned in hell ( to omit the apparitions of Infidels , such as are related of Romulus to (f) Proclus , exhorting the Romās to worship the Gods ; of Homer , to Appion the (g) Grāmarian , telling him his owne Country , and friends ; of Achilles , to Apolonius ; of Seuerus to (h) Heliogabalus ; of Castor , & Pollux (i) in the Latine Warre ; of the Ghost at Athens related by Pliny , to be leane faced , long haired , and handes and feet (k) chained : To omit , I say these Infidels , we haue of Christians , the examples of Theodoret (l) the Arrian King , carryed betweene Iohn the Pope , and Symachus the Senatour ( both whome he had killed ) into Vulcans forge ; of Chilpericus (m) the wicked King of France , seen by Guntran the King , carried between three Bishops into a hoat caldron ; of a Bishop of (n) Ancona , seen by Elias an Hermit standing before Gods Tribunal , and caryed to hell ; of a Nunne (o) in S. Laurence Church cut in peeces before the altar ; of ( * ) Eubronius an Apostata , appearing to one , whome he had vsed cruelly , and carryed into hell-fire . And so many more too pittifull to be remembred . Seauenthly , for the apparitions of the soules in heauen , we haue the examples first of our Sauiour , to S. Paul in his way to Damascus (p) ; to S. Peter flying from Rome , and saying he went to Rome to be crucifyed againe (q) ; to Carpus Bishop of Crete (r) with multitudes of Angells , reprehending him for too seuerly punishing a lapsed Brother ; to Peter Bishop of Alexandria , complayning that Arrius had torne his coate (s) ; to S. Martin in the halfe coate which the day before he had giuen , for his sake , to one naked : next of our Blessed Lady ( I recount only those which are ancient ) to (t) S. Iames in Spaine at Saragossa , for erecting there a Chapell , now in great veneration ; to (u) S. Gregory Thaumaturgus in a glorious shape ; to (w) Musa a Virgin , in S. Gregory his dialogues , for the amendement of her life ; to (x) S. Iohn Damascen , restoring his hand cut off for defending Images ; to (y) S. Cyrill , admonishing him to be friends with S. Chrysostome ; to (z) Narses , in all his battailes against Totila ; to (a) Cyriacus an Abbot , for the burning of Nestorius writings ; to the (b) Architect of Constantine the Great , building a Church ; to the Sonne of a (c) Iew cast into an heat Ouen , by his Father , for receauing the Blessed Sacrament among Christians ; to Pope Liberius , and (d) Patricius , about building S. Maria ad Niues ; to (e) Rupertus an Abbot , giuing him a quicke wit , and vnderstanding of Scripture . All which are of our B. Lady . Of other , Saints we haue the apparitions of (f) S. Peter and Paul to Constantine , and curing his leprosie ; of (g) S. Philip , & S. Iohn Euangelist to Gregory Thaumaturgus , shewing a worke of piety to be done ; of the (h) Apostles at Constantinople , in thāks of Iustinian building them a Church ; of (i) S. Iames to Charles the Great , helping him to recouer Galicia from the Sarazens , and to Rainerus , and Alphonsus Kinges of Spaine , against the Moores ; also of (k) Saint Agnes , to Constantine the Great his daughter ; Geruasius (l) and Protasius , to S. Ambrose ; Potamiena (m) Origens scholler to the torturer , foreshewing his martyrdome ; (n) Felix Nolanus , defēding his Citty Nola ; (o) Thoodore Martyr , admonishing Euxouius to auoid meates sacrificed to Idols ; (p) Cosmas & Damian , curing Iustinian sore sicke ; (q) Peter and Paul terrifying Attila from sacking of Rome ; to omit what is related in this kind by S. Basill of Mamant , by S. Nazianzen of his brother Caesarius , by S. Hierome of Paula , by S. Paulinus of S. Ambrose , by Euodius of S. Steuen , by Prudentius of Fructuosus and his company , by Lucianus of Gamaliel , by Palladius of Colluthus , by Theodoret of S. Iohn Baptist , by S. Athanasius of S. Ammon . And who desires to see more , may read in Delrio , the like apparitions in euery age of christ , how some appeared , as our Sauiour , and Valeria in the first . How Potamiena , and others in the second . How our Blessed Lady , S. Iohn , S. Cyprian , and diuers African Martyrs in the third . How our B. Sauiour , our B. Lady , S. Peter , P. Paul , S. Agnes , S. Agatha , Spiridion , Artemius , Caesarius , Triphillus , two Bishops and others , in the fourth age . How S. Iohn Baptist , S. Martin , S. Geruase and Protase , S. Ambrose , S. Eulalia , S. Fructuosus , S. Felix in the fifth age . How our B. Lady , S. Iohn , S. Peter , and Paul , S. Bartholomaeus , S. Steuen , S. Eutichius , S. Tetricus , S. Iohn Silentiarius , in the sixth age . How our B. Lady , S. Iuuenall , S. Eleutherius , S. Leocadia , in the seauenth age ; and so downeward in all ages vntill this present tyme , or neere . All which being not only ancient for the tyme , as being within the first 600. years , but also made credible , by the sanctity of them who did appeare , by the grant of them to whome they did appeare , and by the authority of them who belieued , and related that they did thus appeare ; may in prudence and piety be credited , and cannot without leuity and temerity , be condemned or reiected . And thus much of the variety of spirits , and the certainty of their apparitions . It remaynes that we shew the difficulty in discerning these spirits , and the apparitions of them , and by the same conuince the insufficiency & inhability of Priuate Spirit to discerne good spirits from bad , reuelations frō illusions , and true fayth & doctrine , from false & erroneous . Of the difficulty to discerne these Spirits . SECT . II. THE first difficulty of discerning thes spirits ariseth vpō the difficulties which are in particular about these seuerall sortes of spirits , & the apparitions visible made by them . And first of the spirit of God , great difficulty hath anciently beene made , whether God did appeare in his owne proper body , or in one assumed , that is , whether he had such a body , or such partes of a body as appeared in shew , and are by scripture attributed to him ; that is , whether he had head , eyes hands , feet , and the rest of the partes of a body , or not ? Also as yet great difficulty is made , supposing ( as it is most certaine ) that he is a meere spirit , whether God himselfe did appeare in assumed bodies , or some Angell in his place , representing his person : & if himselfe should haue appeared , whether the Father , the Sonne , or the holy Ghost ? And if the holy Ghost , whether he assumed that flesh of a Doue , or of Tongues ( for example ) in which he appeared ? In the like manner as the second person assumed the nature of man , and of this Doue thus assumed , whether it may be adored and prayed vnto , as God , and the holy Ghost , which assumes it ? Of the spirits of Angels , great difficulties are made of their nature , whether it be corporall or meere spirituall : if spiritual , whether all be of the same , or of diuers species , or kinds , whether all be incorruptible by nature or by grace , whether made before , or with the world ; how they can know God , and things on earth ; how they know things to come or contingent ; and how they can vnderstand one another ; how , & by what vertue they moue themselues , and other things ; how they are distinguished in orders and Hierarchies ; how they haue and performe the custody of men . Concerning their assumed bodies , it is doubtfull & difficult whether they informe them , or assist only in them ; how , and of what matter they doe make , and frame them ; how , and what operation or motion they exercise in them ; whether any vitall or externall operations , as of eating or drinking ; or any sensual , or external , as of hearing , or seeing ; or any internall , as of passion or affection ; or any intellectual , as of discoursing and discussing , of sinning and meriting ; how they illuminate one another , the higher the lower ; how they present visions , and cogitations to men ; whether to their phantasie only , & by the phantasie to the soule , or imediately to the superiour part of the soule also . Of the Diuels , great difficulties be made , how they fell frō grace , by what sinne , of pride or enuy , into what place ; of hell only , or the aire & earth also ; in what number , more then the blessed , or fewer ; how they are tormented with materiall fire ; and how they carry their tormēts with them , while they torment others , and yet the fire torments not those others in whome they are ; how they enter , possesse , and torment men , in what number , by whole legions ; in what manner , with such instruments of tortures ; how they frame and assume bodies , whether of dead men , of beastes , and the like , or made of the ayre ; how they can abuse women , and beget children ; how they cause thunders , lightenings , & stormes ; how they tempt men , oppose the Angels , hate God , and all good ; how they are deuided into orders , & Hierarchies ; how a subordination , and confusion stands among them , with many such like ? Of the soules departed are many difficulties ; as whether in person Samuel himselfe , or a Diuell for him , appeared before Saul ; whether Moyses from Limbo , and Elias from Paradise before Christ ; whether their apparitions be internall only to the phantasie , and imagination , or externall corporally to the senses also ? If internal , whether the soules can , or Angels for them do , produce these phantasies ? If externall , whether their apparitions be personal , in their own presence , or representable by Angells for them ? If personall in their owne presence , whether the soules in Purgatory ōly , or those in heauen , and hell also , do in presence personally appeare ? If all of them , whether present in their own bodies in which they liued , or in others by them assumed ? If in assumed and made bodies , whether made by themselues , or by Angels for them ? If in bodyes made by Angells , whether they can informe and giue life , or els inhabite , & giue only motion to them ? If only motion , what quantity they can moue , greater then their owne body was , or lesse ? to what distance , further off or neerer ? By what vertue , naturall , or superadded they can moue them ? What operation they can exercise in them , whether naturall of working & mouing ; or vitall also of eating and sleeping ; or sensual also of delectation , or auersion , and which is most intellectuall , of reasoning & speaking ? If they vse reason , whether they know what is done on earth , how they know it , by reuelation from God , or by relation from Angells , or by Species or formes of their owne retayned of old , or acquired anew ? Whether they vnderstand where they are , and what they doe ? Whether they in Purgatory can by prayer and satisfaction be freed ? Whether they who are in heauen , or hell , can increase their ioyes , or paines ? With many more such like . Of all which , if one should aske any ones priuate spirit , or the diuers spirits of diuers ones , and seeke for a certaine resolution of them ; what answere would their spirit affoard ? Or what agreement would be among them , or their answers , or what certainty can be builded vpon any of them ? Surely such is the difficulty in all these , and many more doubts , that let any one spirit of one man , or many spirits of many men resolue them , the hearer shall find such opposition in their resolution , and so great difficulty in discerning which of these is a good spirit , which a bad ; which vision is imaginary , which corporall ; which effect is of God , which of the Diuell ; which is to be belieued and followed , which to be forsaken and abhorred , that he shall find himselfe more doubtfull then before , and deeper plunged in difficultyes , the further he proceeds in inquiries . And thus much of the first reason of difficulty , to discerne the difference of spirits . Of the difficulty , and vncertainty of the rules of discerning Spirits . SECT . III. THE second difficulty of discerning these spirits ariseth vpon the variety and multiplicity of the rules & meanes , which on the one side men , holy , learned & experienced , after much practise of deuotion , great labour of study , & long experience of tyme , either by illumination frō God , or by diligence , industry , or by subtility of obseruation haue made , obserued , and in large Treatises left to posterity , for the discerning of these Spirits . And which , on the other side are so vncertaine and doubtfull , that what by the infirmity of man to discerne them , what by subtilty of the euill spirit to deceaue in them , few can with any certainty , and infallibility rely , and depend vpon them . First therefore for my owne , and the Readers instruction , I will set downe the rules , out of diuers and large treatises collected , which vsually are giuen for discerning these spirits ; and next , shew the grounds and reasons of the vncertainty and fallibility of them ; and out of both , inferre the insufficiency , and inability of euery mans priuate spirit , to make an infallible estimate and iudgment of them , and therby to rely , for himselfe and his estate of saluation , vpon this his spirit , and the opinion of it . SVBDIV. I. Rules to discerne which are good spirits , and which are bad . AND first for the meanes , signes , or rules of discerning these spirits good , or bad , though there be no great difficulty , or vncertainty in discerning spirits which are euill , as the spirit of the Diuell , and his instruments the flesh , and the world ; for that the good spirit of God , of an Angell , or of grace cannot suggest those wicked cogitations , nor performe those vnlawfull actions , which the bad spirits both can and do ; as for example , they can neither lye , deceaue , blaspheme , nor persuade heresy , infidelity , periury , and sacrilege ; nor commit vncleanesse , and lewdnesse , by way of Incubi , or Succubi ; nor obey Inchaunters , Magicians , Witches , for wicked vses ; nor worke and leaue in good soules , doubts , troubles , and despaire of God , & saluation ; neither vse they to appeare in horrible and deformed shapes of beasts and monsters : All which , and such like are proper to the bad spirit , & sufficient rules & signes to discerne him by these fruits and effects . Yet because the bad spirit , the Diuell , both can , and doth often counterfeit , and in shew performe the same exteriour actions , which the good spirit doth ( as by examples shall afterward be shewed ) therefore I will propose only the Rules , and signes which are giuen for the discerning of the good spirits ( of which is the most difficulty and vncertainty ) and of their motions , illuminations , and inspirations . First therfore for the discerning of the good spirits , vnder which title I include all sortes of motions which come imediatly either from God , or from Angels , or from grace ( the difference of which doth not much import , since they are all good , and of God mediatly , or immediatly ) the rules , and signes to discerne them , are taken , some from the obiect , & matter which is proposed , some from the manner , & circūstances how it is proposed , some from the fruits , and effects which it worketh . The rules , and markes drawne from the obiect & matter , are . First that the good spirit inspires , & moues only to verity , and true faith , not to falsity and heresy , nor to any thing which is contrary to the grounds & rules of true faith . And so whasoeuer is contrary to faith , and the grounds of it , as scripture , tradition , Church , Councels , & consent of Fathers , is not from the good , but the bad spirit . Secondly , that it moues only to matter of piety , and sanctity , and to nothing contrary to good life and manners , or to the law of God , or naturall reason . Therefore what is sinne , & impiety by commission , or omission , against reason or grace , is from the bad , not the good spirit . Whereuppon it follws that , as the Prophet saith , the spirit of God is Corne , and Fire , & a Hammer , because it nourisheth , & strengthneth with verity & vertue , as Food ; it enlightneth & enflameth with illuminations and inflāmations , as Fire ; and beateth & mollifieth , with contrition & mortification , as a Hammer : but the spirit of Sathan is as a Dreame , and Chaffe , because it followes things apparent , not true ; & things vaine and not solide ; things that tend to ill , not to good . Wherfore when it proposes things either true , or good , it is neither to be belieued in the one , nor followed in the other , because in the end and application it doth deceaue , and brings danger in both . Thirdly , that it moues sometimes to these verities and vertues , as to know , loue , and follow God in generall , only leauing the application , and particulers to the direction of others , for the matter , the manner , the tyme , the place , or the like , as it did S. Paul to be a Christian , leauing him to Ananias to be instructed what he should belieue and do . And Iephta to make a vow , according to the Prophet Isay , who yet by his owne spirit , as faith S. Ambrose , choosing the particuler , erred and did amisse . Fourthly , that when it moues in particuler to extraordinary works , as for example , of pennance & fasting , as it did S. Antony , Simeon Stelites , & S. Katherine of Siena to fast many weekes , and monthes ; or of obedience , as it did Abraham to offer in sacrifice his sonne ; and others to walke on the water , set vpon Lyons , or the like ; or of martyrdome , as it did some Virgins , and Martyrs to cast themselues into the water or fire , to preuent tentation , or confound the Tyrants ; al which it did for the fuller triall of the persons , the greater honour of God , or more edification of others : When I say , God moues or inspires to these extraordinary workes , then ordinarily he doth it with that sense of certainty , that he leaues no doubt of it in the soule ; with that vehemency of motion , that the soule presently proceeds to execution ; with that subtility of attention , that in the operation , the soule can hardly attend to any thing els , but that which is good , and of God. The rules and markes drawne from the manner of proceeding of the spirit , are . First , That when the spirit doth worke any good motion immediately in the superiour part of the soule ( as in the Vnderstanding , reuelations and illuminations of truth ; In the wil , inspirations , and inflammations , and ardent desires of good ; In the Memory , attention , and adhesion to God in the same manner as it doth the habits of faith , hope , charity , and the rest ) all , without any mediatiō , or ministery of any species in the outward senses , or of phantasies in the interiour imaginatiō ( to which the power of the bad spirit is limited ; ) that then it is the spirit of God , which somtimes enters in , knocking at the dore of the soule by holy vocations and admonitions to call it from sinne to grace , frō vice to vertue : somtimes hauing got entrance doth worke & labour in the soule , either inlightening the darkenesse , or inflaming the coldnesse , or moistening the drynesse , or righting the crookednesse , or mollifying the hardenesse , or awaking the drowsinesse , or curing the sicknesse , & reuiuing the senslesnes , which it finds in the same . Somtims it proceeds so far , as now to infuse a copious light of knowledge , reuealing secret senses of scripture , deep mysteries of faith , high points of contemplation ; now to instill a pleasant dew of consolations , and comforts in spituall practise , and of content and sweetnes , in enduring afflictions ; now to perfume it with a fragrant odour , either of the incense of Deuotion , or of the myrrhe of Mortification , or of the sweet sent of all heroicall vertues and perfections , wherewith the soule is rapt , as it were , out of the sense of bodily feeling , vp to a glimpse , to a taste , to a sweetnes , to an vnion with God , so farre , that it is no more where it liues but where it loues , now wholy absorpt , rauished , and inflamed , and transformed into God , and God into it . All which are a signe of the spirit of God , Secondly , that the spirit of God thus setled in the soule , doth as it were with two eyes looke out , & abroad , into all things . That is , with the one of pure intention , which seeks , not our owne honour , profit , pleasure , and content in any thing but God , and his honour , glory , and praise in all our words , actions , visitations , consolations , or desolations : The other of discretion , which proceeds in measure , not going further in any practise , then our ability will extend : In weight , valewing things of necessity , before things voluntary , of iustice before charity , of obligation before supererogation : In degree , first mouing , then walking , then running , and lastly flying , and that by step to step , from the botome to the top , imbracing first the feet , next the knees , then the hands , & so to the face , and presence of our Sauiour : In order , contenting our selues with wayes ordinary , plaine , facill , vsuall and commodious to our selues & others , not aspiring to works & effects extraordinary high , prodigious , miraculous , beyond reach of our reason , and without benefit to any . And in all , it perseuers , & proceeds with vigilancy , and diligence , without stop , interruption , or retiring in the course of vertue and perfection . The rules , and signes drawne from the effects and operations of this Spirit , are : That the spirit of God , for the most part , hath , and doth cause such a spirituall sauour , and taste in the soule where it is , that as a man is knowne by his voice and visage , as hony is discerned by the taste & sweetnes : So the motions , illustrations , and the voice , and speach of God are discerned , and knowne by a certaine proper , diuine , and spirituall taste and sweetnes , which , men accustomed to them , and practised in them , can by a supernaturall instinct of grace ( as a child doth his mother , by a naturall instinct of nature ) better discerne in thēselues , then expresse to others ; and fullier satisfy and content themselues with them , then giue any reason of them ; saying with the Prophet (1) Dauid , that they taste , and see , that our Lord is sweet ; & with the Apostle , that they (2) aboūd in knowledge , and all vnderstanding approuing the better things ; & yet they know not with the Euangelist , (3) whence it cometh or whither it goeth , why it is caused , or how long it remaines , but only they tast and feele it , and so rest satisfied in it . Thirdly , that the spirit of God doth worke in the heart a true and solid humility , whose acts and effects are , 1. To feare , refuse , or at the least vnwillingly accept these extraordinary visitations being offered , preferring the ignominy of mount Caluary , before the glory of mount Thabor . 2. To conceale , and hide , not relate and speake of these gifts being receaued : but discouering them only in confession for counsell , and that lesse willingly then sinnes . 3. To desire , to be contēned in matters not only honorable of the world , but spiritual , as to be reputed wicked by persons not wicked but good , so long as no scandall is thereby likely to ensue . 4. To wonder that so worthy guifts should be in so vnworthy a person , & that God should bestow so much good vpon one so bad . 5. To feele rather a shame and confusion for the deformity of sinne , then a ioy & contēt in the dignity of the gift . 6. Not to desire these great and extraordinary visitations , but more ordinary acts of loue , purity , and humility . 7. Not to esteeme of ones selfe better for them , but to account others more holy without them . 8. Not to presume vpon any security or fauour for hauing them , but rather to feare greater obligation , vnworthinesse , and ingratitude for not well vsing them . Fourthly , that the spirit of God doth worke a perfect obedience : first of the will , against selfe loue ; secondly of the vnderstanding , against selfe conceit ; both of them , first to the will of God , to runne the way of his commandements ; secondly , to the will of man , that is superiour vnder God , to be ruled by him . Thus did the holy Hermites accept it as a signe of Gods spirit in Simeon Stelites , when being commanded to come to them , and giue an account of his austere life , he presently obeyed , and prepared to descend from his rocke to them . Fifthly , that the spirit of God doth worke vpon this resignation , a true mortification . First exteriour of the body , to tame the pride of the flesh . Next , and chiefly , interiour of the mind , to asswage the rage of passion and affection ; & both for that end to attaine to purity , not only of mind , but also of body , because visions and apparitions ( much more motions and inspirations ) though they come , saith one , in the likenesse of Saints , of our Lady , or of Christ , are alwayes suspitious , if they bring impurity of sensuall motions . Sixthly , that the good spirit of God doth bring with it peace , and tranquillity , ioy and gladnesse , comfort and consolation of the mind , expelling feare , bridling passions , supressing affections , and subiecting all manner of perturbations , to reason and grace . And though it cause some terrour , desolation or perturbation , yet it is at the first entrance when it begins , and that in sinners , in whom it finds resistance , whom yet in the end it leaues in comfort and consolation . And though it be short , and for the most , not of long continuance , yet it is not only frequent , often coming and often going , and alwayes leauing a good relish after it ; but also effectual , in euery one according to his state , as in an incipient in the purgatiue way , rooting out vices ; in a proficient in the illuminatiue way , planting of vertues : in a perfect man , in the perfect way , exercising perfection of action and contemplation . And these and such like be the rules and signes they giue to discerne good spirits . SVBDIV. 2. Difference betweene good and bad Spirits . THE same holy men the better to distinguish these spirits giue also certaine distinctiue signes , by which comparing the effects of the good and bad spirits togeather , the difference betweene them may the better be discerned . And first for exteriour visions , apparitions , & shapes or shewes of good and bad spirits , they assigne differēce . First in forme , that good spirits appeare alwayes in the shape of man , and that comely and beautifull ; the bad spirit in the shape often of beasts , and monsters , and these vgly and deformed . 2. In matter , that the good spirit persuads alwayes to verity & vertue : but the bad spirit alwayes to falshood and wickednes , eyther in the beginning or end . 3. In workes , that the good do help and assist vs in doubts or infirmityes : the bad do reuenge and punish our defects or iniquities . 4. In place , that the good appeare in places holy , in which piety is practised : the bad in places prophane , where wickednes is cōmitted . 5. In tyme , that good appeare ordinarily in the light , as Angels of light : but the bad in darkenesse , as Angels of darknesse . 6. For persons , that the good appeare to good men , to encourage them in goodnesse : the bad , to bad men , to draw them to more badnesse . 7. For holy thinges , that good do affect and desire : but the bad do fly & abhorre thinges holy and consecrated , as the presence of the Blessed Sacrament , of Reliques , Agnus deies , holy-Water , the signe of the Crosse , the name of Iesus , the inuocation of Saints , with many other ; of which , examples are copious , and certaine in diuers good Authours . Secondly , for the internall motions of the good and bad spirit , they assigne these kindes of differences : That the good spirit obserues an order , and conueniency of age and state in persons ; of tymes and seasons in affaires ; communicating wisedome , grace , and guifts agreable . 1. To the state of persons , Religious or secular . 2. To the dispositions of yeares , for those which are young or old . 3. To the conueniences of tymes , ioyful or sorrowfull ; reducing by degrees and meanes , in order and season , all sortes of persons from great sinne , to great perfection . The bad spirit obserues no such order , but confusedly , and vpon the sodaine seemes to eleuate to high thoughts , & wonderous actions , which are nether ordinary nor profitable for the presēt , & makes shew to exalt on the suddaine , from the deepest of sin , to the highest step of perfection , thereby to exalt them to pride and selfe-conceit , and to feed them with nouelty and curiosity . That the good spirit desires nothing in particuler for it selfe , and owne profit , or delight , nothing with importunity and impatience , but all with resignation to the will of God , so farre as it may be to his honour and glory : The bad spirit desires much for its owne will & pleasure , & all with importune , and vnseasonable vehemency , and perturbatiō . That the good spirit moues to inward humility , & contempt of ones selfe , and the more it increaseth in vertue , the meaner conceit it workes of ones selfe , and the better of others : The bad spirit moues to outward humility in exteriour thinges , that it may seeme humble and lowly , but workes an inward conceit of ones selfe , and willfullnesse in all actions and proceedinges . That the good spirit causes one to confide much in God , and distrust much in ones selfe : The bad spirit causes one to esteeme highly of his owne conceit , to presume much vpon ones owne force , and litle to feare his owne state & danger . That the good spirit is willing to suffer much for Gods cause , and the more it suffers , the more it is contented : The bad spirit murmurs , and repines , and is impatient at al crosses and afflictions , and is disquieted and vexed against those , by whome they are any way caused or procured . That the good spirit is mercifull and compassionate , shewing pitty and mercy , where it may shew iustice & seuerity : The bad spirit is seuere , fierce , cruel , and reuengefull , euen vpon those who do subiect , and humble themselues . That the good spirit shews a respect and reuerence , euen to the Saints & seruants of God , for the honour it bears to God ; and also to their Reliques , and Images , for the respect it beares to them : The bad neglects both , and refuses to giue any respect , or honour to either . That the good proposes the yoke of Christ as easy , & the grace of God as sufficient , and superaboundant to keep his Commandements , thereby to enable men to performāce thereof : The bad , proposes the performance of Gods commandements as impossible , and Gods mercy as facill before sinne is committed , thereby to allure to sinne ; & his iustice as rigide and terrible after sinne be committed , thereby to draw into desperation . That the good spirit , if it worke any miracles , illuminate with any reuelations , or reueale any secrets of the hart , or euents to come , doth do all peaceably , without any extraordinary motions of sobbing , sighing , exulting , or grieuing ; without ostentation of any such guift , or grace ; moderatly , without any vehemency of desire of them , or conceit of ones selfe , or contempt of others for them ; compassionatly , without aggrauating of offences receaued , or benefits exhibited ; and humbly , with submission to the iudgment of superiour authority , and with conformity to their censure , and correction . The bad doth all contrary ; it proceedes in perturbation without peace ; in vehemency without discretion ; in exagerations without measure ; & in obstinacy without relenting in any thing from that which it once conceaues . That the good spirit vses those wayes and spirituall meanes , which God hath for that present age , tyme , and place accommodated , as most fit for the spirituall good of soules then liuing . Therefore as in former ages he prescribed the instinct of naturall reason in the law of Nature , the vse of ceremonies in the law of Moyses , and either strange guift of miracles , and languages , or ardent desires of martyrdome , or rigide austerity of pennance in the primitiue ages of the law of Grace : so now in these ages , not communicating so frequently the guift of miracles , nor affoarding so vsually the benefit of martytdome , nor exacting so seuerely the former austerity of pennāce , it moueth vs to a more zealous performance of these deuotions , which in this tyme the Diuell more violently oppugnes , to wit , frequentation of Sacraments , vse of meditation , duties of obedience , veneration of Saints , visitation of Reliques , and holy places , and the like . The bad spirit peruerts all this order , it affects nouelty , it seekes curiosity , it followes after rarities , it ayms at singularity , it lookes for prodigiosities , and contents it selfe with nothing , but straines to extrauagancy , it seemes to know all , striues to do all , seekes to go beyond all , and flyes in his owne conceit , aboue all both measure , reason , & discretion . That the good spirit keepes in all , a tranquility of the mind , with a conformity in all thinges to the will of God , whether it be the rooting out of vices , the planting of vertues , the exercise of mortification , and deuotion , all conioyned with a pure iniention of not seeking ones owne , but Gods honour ; and with a discreet moderation , in being neither too credulous , in belieuing all , nor too obdurate , in belieuing nothing , but with aduice , and temper , to examin all , and not rashly to receaue , or reiect any . The bad spirit runs in all , the contrary race ; in some thinges it is troubled and disquieted with feares and scruples ; in others loose , & dissolute without care , or conscience ; at sometymes feruent and headlong in deuotion beyond measure ; at others , stupide and dull , without sense , or feeling ; in some practises of small importance , violent , vehement , and impatient without reason ; in others of moment , negligent , carelesse and heedlesse without any esteeme or regard ; in purposes of good , wauering , and inconstant ; in iudgment of others , credulous , and temerarious . All which ( omitting much which might be sayd more ) may suffice to discerne the multiplicity of signes of good spirits , and the difference of them from bad . It remaynes to shew , that neither these rules to discerne good spirits from bad , nor the difference betweene good spirits and bad , are so certaine , nor the applying them to euery particuler euent so easy , that the spirit of euery priuate man , can of it selfe proceed in it , and securely rest himselfe vpon it . SVBDIV. 3. The difficulty to iudge of these rules and differences of Spirits . NOtwithstanding therefore that these rules & signes of a good spirit , and these differences from a bad , be by spirituall men , well and truly thus assigned ; and notwithstāding , that it be true , that they serue for good , and morall directions , to discerne those spirits , and that any man may proceed probably in his iudgment vpon them : yet that they neither are in themselues so certaine and infallible , nor yet are for so certaine assigned , that euery man may infallibly rely , and rest vpon them without any further directour , but that these , both may , and often do faile in many particuler euents , and that many are deceaued in the vse and application of them , is by these reasons , heere briefly , and by examples afterwardes more at large produced , euidently proued . First , because such is the excellency both in nature and operation of these spirits , especially Angells , and Diuels aboue the nature and capacity of man ; and such is the weaknes and obscurity of mans vnderstanding , in these sensuall organs of our corporall frailty ; and such is the inconstancy and vncertainty of euery priuate spirit in euery particuler person , that admit these rules and differences were certaine ; yet neither is the vnderstanding of euery man so intelligent that he knowes them , nor his spirit so quicke-sighted that it can discerne them , nor his art and cunning so skillfull , that he can alwayes vpon euery occasion duly and infallibly apply them : but that necessarily vpon ignorance , errour , or partiality , and affection , in many cases he may , and must needes faile in them . For as all sciences , Law and Phisicke , Mathematicke and Musicke , Logicke and Rhetoricke , with the like ; and all arts and trades of nauigation , negotiation , military , or manufactory , & the rest , haue their principles & documents , and these some of them demonstratiue and certaine , which yet few or none can out of their owne wit & industry , without both a maister to teach , & tyme to learne , apply and vse certainly in the practise of particulers : so in this science of discerning of spirits ( which yet is so much more difficult then the former , by how much the spirits are more subtil , the operations more like , the rules more vncertayne , and the danger of erring more great ) a simple , and vnlearned man may , yea often many most learned , and intelligent Doctours ( witnesse , for example , Origen , Tertullian and all learned Heretikes ancient and moderne ) haue been grosly deluded , and dangerously deceaued , while insteed of the spirit of God , of truth , and of light , they haue followed the spirit of Sathan , errour , and darkenesse , and by it haue beene conducted , not only themselues , but also millions by their examples , into the pit of perdition and damnation . For as the Apostles being troubled with the storme of the sea , when they saw our Sauiour walking vpon the water , did thinke he was a Ghost : so there be some , who either vpon perturbation , pusillanimity , scrupulosity , tentation , or malice , do imagine euery motion of God in themselues , and euery vision , reuelation , or extraordinary worke or miracle in others , to be either mere fancies , & imaginatiōs of man , or else Ghosts and illusions of Sathan . Others there be , who on the contrary vpon too much leuity , & credulity of disposition , or vpon too much weaknesse , and infirmity of the braine , or vpon too much pride and presumption of thēselues , do conceaue euery idle imagination of their owne spirit , and euery false suggestion of the spirit of Sathan to be a vision , inspiration , or illumination of Christ , in which being perswaded that euill is good , and good euill , that darknesse is light , and light darknesse , that bitter is sweet , & sweet bitter , they do sometimes belieue , and adore a Ghost insteed of Christ ; other while neglect & contemne Christ as a Ghost ; somtimes do belieue and preach errours and falshood , as though they were truth ; otherwhile condemne truth , and diuine verity , as though it were Idolatry and superstition ; somtimes do imbrace vices & sinnes , as vertues ; otherwhile censure workes of zeale , charity , and humility , as acts of passion , basenesse and hypocrisy ; somtimes do giue credit to their fancies , and imaginations of their owne , or Sathans spirit , as if they were the spirit of God ; otherwhile reiect the inspirations , illuminations , & vocations of God , as illusions of Sathan . And thus , while they walke in two extremes , both a like perilous , that is , to neglect Christ as a Ghost , and to follow a Ghost as Christ , to refuse that which is of God , as if it were of the diuel , & to follow that which is of the Diuel , as if it were of God ; they belieue falshood , and condemne truth ; they imbrace painted & shadowed vices , and contemne solid and true vertue ; and so follow Away which seemes to them iust , but the later end thereof leads to death ; and are themselues those wicked , VVho are so secure , as though they had the workes of iust men . And this is the first reason , drawne from the infirmity of man , why these rules cannot be to vs certaine and infallible . The second reason is , because such is the craft , and subtilty of Sathan the wicked spirit , that as he can transfigure , and shew himselfe in the glory of an Angell , so can he transforme his actions into the actions of an Angell , and do the same which the Angels do . Therfore whatsoeuer exteriour actions either of charity , humility , or piety , deuotion , mortification , or other vertue , a good man by the inspiration of God doth ; a bad man by the instigation of Sathan , can doe the like . In which , though a difference will appeare in the intention , and the end ( both which in the good are good , and in the bad are bad , ) yet in the exteriour action , the Diuell can so cunningly carry himselfe , and so craftily couer his intention , that a quicke eye shall hardly of a long tyme discerne him . In this manner hath he carryed himselfe in all or most Hereticks , ancient and moderne , couering himselfe vnder the veile of the honour of God , zeale of soules , verity of doctrine , sanctity of life , word of God , and the like ; of all which in many of them he made a faire shew , and thereby deceaued many . Wherfore S. Paul foretels , (a) That many should come in later tymes , who shall giue eare to spirits of errours , and doctrines of Diuells . And S. Chrysostome did affirme : (b) That all heresyes , and all opinions of Heretikes , are from the Diuell . And S. Polycarpe did call (c) Marcion , the first-borne of the Diuell . Thus doth (d) Ioannes Cassianus auouch , that himselfe was an eare-witnesse , hearing the Diuel confesse , that he was the authour of the heresy of Arius , and Eumonius . Thus doth (e) Clemens Romanus , & (f) Iustinus Martyr , liuing in their tyme , witnesse of Simon Magus ; that by the Diuell , and magicke he was counted a God , and had his statua to Simon the great God ; and that Menander his scholler deceaued many of Antioch by Magicke . Thus (g) Irenaeus auerres of Marcus Anaxilaus , and others , that by a familiar Diuell they did wonders , and tell things to come ▪ Epiphanius (h) of Carpocrates and the Gnostickes , that they did by familiar Diuels , and inchantments allure to lust , dominiere ouer the people , and make shew of wonders . The like doth (i) Theodoret , of Basilides and Massilianus ; and Eusebius , of Theodotus and Montanus ; Cyrillus of Buda ; Innocentius of Marcion ; Hierome of Priscilianus in Spaine ; & Seuerus , of one Anatolius , who made himselfe first Elias , then Christ , and by counterfeit miracles deceaued Rufus a Bishop in the same countrey . Caesareus affirmes of the Albigenses , that by the Diuell they walked on the water , to confirme their doctrine , till a priest , extraordinarily moued , cast the Blessed Sacrament into the water , at which they suncke , and the B. Sacrament was by an Angell preserued . Malmesbury and Baronius witnesse , that Fuldo Bishop of Chartres saw the Diuell stand by Berengarius , and as it were , with his hand calling many to come to him . Thus did the Emperour Maximiliā the first ( witnesse Bredenbach ) see the Diuell in a bodily shape sit on the shoulder of Luther at Auspurge , anno 1518. and therby foretould what troubles should arise after his death . Thus doth Luther confesse of himselfe , that he had his doctrine , of abrogating the Masse , of the Diuell . Zuinglius , that he had his figuratiue doctrine from the spirit , blacke , or white he knew not . Caluin , that his veyne of rayling was not Ingenij , but Genij , not of his nature , but his spirit , which cannot be a good spirit , because it is a spirit of rayling , therefore a bad . Luther affirmes of (a) Carolostadius , of (b) Oecolampadius , of (c) Bucer , of (d) Marcus Cauikanus , of (e) the Anabaptists ; Alberus of (f) Osiander , Lindan of (g) Campanus , that they had commerce and directions from the Diuell . King Iames often did affirme of Knocks , witnes (h) Barkclay , that he was a Magitiā . And this of the Anabaptistes , by many experiences , is constātly related , that to read , and remember the Scripture , they are taught by the Diuel , by whome they are thought , to be willingly , & without torments so possessed , that he speake and continue in them , till they returne to the Catholike fayth . By all which examples , and many more most lamētable , is proued not only the craft and subtilty of Sathan ( which is more fully shewed in the next Section , ) but also ( which is by them heere intended ) the vncertainty , & fallibility of the former rules and meanes to discerne these spirits , since Sathan can so cunningly transforme himselfe into an Angell , and his suggestions into Gods seeming inspirations , that it is hard to discerne viam Colubri super Petram , the way of this adder vpon the Rocke of mans hart , and to find out his turninges and windinges among so many his trickes of deceit and subtilty , of which more in the next Section . Of the subtilty of Sathan in deceauing , by the similitude of Spirits . SECT . IIII. THE third difficulty of discerning these spirits , ariseth from the subtilty , the malice , and the power of the Diuell ; for as the Diuell is in subtilty of knowledge a serpent , which was more subtile then all the beastes of the earth ; in venime of malice , a Dragon , out of whose mouth (a) frogges ( of venime ▪ and poison ) did proceed ; and in power , that great Behemoth , (b) whose taile being as trees of Cedar , and his bones as barres of brasse , doth deuour riuers , and swallow Iordan , in at his mouth : So whatsoeuer the deepest Vnderstanding that euer discoursed , can inuent , whatsoeuer the extremest malice that euer was conceaued , can exagerate , and whatsoeuer the greatest power that euer was preualent in any creature can execute , all ioyned with the longest experience that tyme can affoard ; the same is couched togeather in this our mortall and potent enemy , the Diuell ; who as Iob sayth of him , Compasseth the earth : And as S. Peter sayth , Seeketh whome he may deuoure like a Lyon ; all which is imployed to deceaue vs poore , and miserable men , against whome , in enuy to God , whose image we carry , he layes his trapps , and sets his snares to catch our soules , and carry them into the pit of perdition . SVBDIV. 1. Sathans subtilty , by inward suggestions . THIS subtile , malicious , and powerful Serpent , Dragon , and Behemoth , the Diuell , doth by three wayes of subtilty counterfeit the spirit of God , and good Angells , by which he makes the discerning of these spirits doubtfull , and difficult . The first is by a secret and lurking manner of temptation , for the most shrowded vnder the habit of some kind of piety , or deuotion , in which with a subtile progresse he proceeds by a certaine gradation from publicke & apparent temptation , to a secret fraud and illusion , by which searching the veines , and feeling the pulse of euery mans disposition , and by his exteriour wordes or gestures , sauouring the state of his soule , whether he be in sinne or not , and in what sinne , carnal or spiritual ; the dispositiō of his mind , to what he is inclined , to heauinesse or myrth , idlenesse or voluptuousnes , ambition or couetousnesse ; the inclination of his passions & affections , in what they are most vehemēt , to passion or affection , to loue or hatred , reuenge or lust ; the infirmity of his mynd , in what part he is most weake , in his vnderstanding or will , his irascible or concupiscible , or sensible part ; and the oportunity , or occasions of sinne , in which he is most easily catched . He craftily obserues when he is idle and vacant from some good imployment , in what he is watchlesse and carelesse , in the custody of his senses or phantasies , to what he is inclined or affected in his delectations or auersions ; and there he sets the snares of his subtilty and layes the engines of his powers towardes that part , where he findes him most weakly sensed , most negligently guarded , or most apt to bite at his bait . First therefore he plainely propo●es publicke & known sinnes , as murther , adultery , blasphemy , and the like ; if they suffer the repulse , he closely suggests secret , and interiour sinnes , as enuy , hatred , contempt , obstinacy , or such like ; if these take no hould , he watches oportunities and occasions of familiarity , and company to sinnes sensuall and delectable , and vses meanes and instruments to auarice and ambition ; and if none of these will draw men to bite , he baites a fresh with the memory of sinnes past , or possibility of sinnes to come ; if none of these catch , he fishes for lesser sinnes , and smaller imperfections ; he labours to worke a conceit of an impossibility of perfection , a neglect of vertue , & an omission of smaller dutyes ; which if they faile , he rests and forbeares to tempt , and so lulles the soule into a sleep of security , that there by he may at vnawares catch it in a trick of treachery , that while it least apprehends the danger of sinne , he may more easily catch it in a trape of sinne ; with which tricke if he do not catch it into his trappe , he baites a fresh with a new deuice of subtilty , he comes as a new man in a shape , disguised in a new manner of fashion , he shapes himselfe a painted coate of vertue and perfection , and comes out now disguised in a coate of piety & deuotion , that therby he may allure to impiety and superstition ; now veiled vnder the maske of humility and meeknesse , the better to couer his pride and tyranny ; now cloathed with a cloake of equity and iustice , the easier to exercise his reuenge and cruelty ; now painted with faire colours of zeale & charity , and beautifyed with the fairenesse of the word of God , and truth , thereby the more cunningly to conceale his deformity of malice , and heresy , and to intrude his owne word of falsity and impiety . And by this art , he makes slacknesse in ones charge seeme mildnes ; prodigality in ones estate shew as liberality ; auarice , appeare as frugality ; obstinacy , to be accounted constancy ; basenesse , to stand for humility ; slouth for quietnes ; rashnesse , for fortitude ; perturbation of mind , for solicitude of others good . And thus as he cloathes vices with the robes of vertues , so he disrobes vertue , & staines it with the infamy of vice ; as mortification with a note of dissimulation ; piety , of hypocrisy ; charity , of impiety ; zeale , of reuenge ; obedience , of seruitude ; deuotion , of superstition ; adoration , of idolatry ; & Christ , of Antichrist . Whē none of these shewes , and shapes of vertue will preuaile , he will not sticke to persuade good thinges and pious actions : but then it is either to the lesse , to withdraw from the greater good , as by too much rigour of exteriour , to forget the interiour mortification ; by too exact performance of ceremoniall obseruations , to omit interiour perfection ; by too excessiue care and solicitude for the zeale of others good , to forget or neglect the obligation of their owne good . Or if he persuade to any greater good , then it is either with too great vehemency & feruour to consume ones ability without discretion ; or with too much obstinacy and pertinacity to adhere to ones owne opinion against obedience ; or with too vehement perturbation and disquietnesse of mind , to distemper the peace & tranquility of reason ; or with too timerous scrupulosity of imaginatiō of sinne , to the disquiet of conscience . By which , and such like , he intends to make men vnconstant in good purposes , slow in heroicall resolutions , fearefull in pious executions ; he makes them dull in deuotion , carelesse in amendement , precipitate in proceeding , and obdurate in custome of sinne and wickednes . In all which the Wolfe in sheeps cloathing , the Serpent with a womans face , and the Lyon with a lambes skin , that is , the Diuell in the shew of an Angell , deceaues many , and makes , as S. Gregory sayth , Vices seeme vertues , and vertues vices ; makes men looke for a reward , when they deserue a punishmēt ; & makes of high Cedars of perfection , vnprofitable brāches of hel fire . SVBDIV. 2. Examples of Sathans inward suggestions . BY this subtilty he persuaded the Iewes , vnder pretence of sanctifying the Sabaoth , to condemne our Sauiour for curing diseases on the Sabaoth . He preuailed with Iudas , vnder colour of relieuing the poore , to censure Mary Magdalene , anointing our Sauiour , for wast . He deluded Nicolaus , vnder colour of community of all thinges , to make also wiues common . He wrought with Origen , vnder shew of perfection of continency , to geld himselfe ; and in pretext of piety and mercy , to grant a generall saluation of Diuells , and all damned . He drew the Montanists , and after them Tertullian , vnder pretext of more mortification , of fastes , & continency from second mariages , to forsake the Church & condemne it of liberty , and loosenesse . He preuailed with Nouatianus , in shew of greater detestation of sinne , to deny remission of sinnes after relapse . With the Apostolickes in imitation of the Apostles themselues , to allow no mariage at all , and to oblige all to make all thinges common . With the Messalians , or Eutichs , in estimation of prayer , to pray alwaies , and make that alone sufficient to saluation . With the Pacificatours , for the good of peace , to tolerate the Orthodoxe , and the Eutichian doctrine togeather . Thus he persuaded the Donatists , in desire of Martyrdome , to kill themselues . The Flagellantes , in esteeme of disciplining themselues , to prize discipline as Baptisme . Of later tymes he induced the Anabaptists , as aspiring to extraordinary holynesse , to haue women , goods , and all in common : and makes in them shew of reuelations & visions . And as yet , he persuades many , for feare of dishonouring God , not to pray to Saints ; for feare of Idolatry , not to worship Reliques ; in estimation of Scripture , to refuse all Traditions ; and in shew of attributing more to Christ , to take from a man all merit and satisction , from Saints all intercession , from Angells all custody , from the Church all superiority . Thus vnder the winges of piety hath the Diuell hatched many Heresies , and vnder the veile of perfection , shrouded his most wicked abomination of all falshood and impiety . We read also in particuler , how he perswaded one Hierome a Monke , in Cassians tyme , vpō presumptiō of Gods deliuery for his merits , to cast himselfe into a Well . And another , in imitation of Abraham , to attempt the killing of his sonne , which he had done , if the child had not run away . We read also of ancient tymes , how in a solemne festiuity of the Gentils made at Caesarea Philippi , he caused a certaine Pagan victime cast into a fountaine , first to vanish out of sight , and then carryed it vp into the ayre , till by the Prayers of S. Asterins , the same remayned , and did swimme on the water . Also in later tymes he so farre preuailed in one Guido an Heretike , that in his life , and at his death , he was esteemed a Saint , & after his death being discouered for an Hereticke , and his body to be burned , the Diuell defended it from the fire , and eleuated it into the ayre to astonishment of all , till being subdued by holy thinges , he cryed out ; We haue defended thee Guido so long as we could , now we must leaue thee . SVBDIV. 3. Sathans subtilty , by imaginary Illusions . THE second way of his subtilty is , by an inward kind of suggestion , which appearing in the shew of diuine reuelation , doth lead many into the pit of eternall perdition , making them belieue they are inspired by God , when indeed they are deluded by Sathan , whose suggestion in their apprehension runs current for Gods reuelation . Of which we haue examples both ancient & moderne , most frequent . 1. How he deluded Cerinthus with many reuelations , as from certaine of the Apostles , witnesse Caius , and Dionysius Alexandrinus . 2. Marcus an arch-heretike of that tyme , with many prophesies , witnes Irenaeus . 3. Montanus , with many both visions , reuelations , and prophesies , by Maximilla & Quintilla , and with much seeming deuotion , and mortification , which deceaued euen that learned Tertullian , witnesse Apollinaris , Miltiades , Apollonius , and Serapion in Eusebius . 4. Martiades and Martianus arch-heretikes , who made Archangels creatours of the world , with many Harmonies , Symphonies , or propheticall Reuelations , witnesse Epiphanius . 5. Manes the Authour of the Maniches , Iulian the Apostata , Vincentins the Donatist , with many such like , witnesse S. Augustine , and Theodoret. In like manner he hath deluded many of late , with such like feigned reuelations ; as the Lollards in England ; as the Begards or Beguines in Belgia ; the Illuminated in Spaine ; as Munzer the founder of the Anabaptists , and many of his followers ; Campanus Vel●ius in Germany , Francis de la Crux in India . Yea many in England , who either would haue sacrificed their children , as in Crauen in Yorkeshire , diuers anno 1520. questioned for it at Yorke , attempted ; or els did sacrifice them , as one Gray a Lincolne-shireman , who for killing and cutting in peeces his owne sonne , and vttering treasons against King Iames , was executed at Dublin in Ireland . In which kind of illusions , he hath gone so farre , as to persuade some that they were saints , our Lady , our Sauiour , yea the B. Trinity it selfe . Thus in India he persuaded a famous Doctour , deluded by the familiarity of a woman ( who was instructed , as she feigned , frō an Angel ) that he should be not only a King , & Pope , who should translate the Popedome to India , but also was more holy then Angels , had the hypostaticall vnion of God offered him , & was the redeemer of the world ( quoad efficaciā ) & for that end should worke miracles , which by Scripture & shew of miracles , to the admiration of al , euen to the fire & death he defēded . Thus in Spaine he persuaded Gondisalues , that he was the sonne of God eternal , immortal , & the Sauiour of all , euen the damned , which he (a) published in a booke pretended by him to be dictated by the Holy Ghost . In France , he deluded one (b) Eun , a Britaine , another at Bourges , a third at Burdeaux , all of them to thinke that themselues were Christ . In Poland , he persuaded one (c) Melstincke in the tyme of Sigismonde , at Cracouia , to make himselfe Christ , and with twelue Apostles to passe vp and downe the Country , and make shew of miracles , in dispossessing of Diuels , raysing of the dead , & doing by magicke thinges to the vulgar strange and admirable , till discouered , they by whiping were forced to confesse their illusion . In the Low-countryes he persuaded (d) Dauid George , that he was the nephew of God , borne of the holy Ghost , a third Dauid , the true Messias sent to adopt men , children of God , and to fill heauen . Also a (e) Religious woman , that one while the Diuell , another while Iesus Christ did speake in , and that she had power to consecrate ( which she presumed to do ) the body of Christ , by the power of our Sauiour speaking in her . In England he persuaded , in Queene Elizabeths tyme , one Moore , to belieue himselfe to be Christ , and Geffrey his companion to preach it , till by whipping at a Cart they both disclaimed it . And Hacket also after them , to belieue that he was also Christ , come with his fanne in his hand to iudge the earth , which Coppinger & Arthington defended , till Hacket was hanged for it . By all which most lamentable examples of Sathans deluding so many , and some so learned , it is more then apparent , that notwithstanding the former rules of discerning spirits , yet Sathan can so assimilate himselfe , and his suggestions to the spirit , and inspirations of God & good Angels , that it is hard to discerne viam Colubri super petram , the way of this Adder vpon the Rocke of mans hart , and to find out his turninges and windinges among so many his trickes of deceit , and subtilty . Of which yet in the next Section more are discouered , and by variety of more examples confirmed . SVBDIV. 4. Sathans subtilty , by exteriour Visions . THE third art the Diuell vseth , is by illusion of sensible visions , and apparitions , that when his inward motions either to sinne knowne , or secret , or to sinne vnder the shadow of vertue cannot preuaile , or his suggestions insteed of reuelations are discouered ; then he transfigures himselfe into visible shapes and apparitions , not of a Serpent as he did to Eua , but sometymes of a holy man. Sometymes of an Angell , sometimes of our Lady , and our Blessed Sauiour himselfe , and the B. Trinity , and appearing in the forme of thē as though he were one of them . He by that dissimulation seekes to lure soules to his whistle , and to catch them in his net of perdition . In this manner he appeared to our Sauiour in the shape of some venerable man , as is before proued , and tempted him to know if he were God , He presumed to approach to the presence of God , and stood among the sons of God to assist before our Lord , as though he had byn one of them , to obtaine licence to persecute Iob. Thus he clymed vp to the Throne of God , and intruded himselfe among the hoast of heauen ( as Micheas saw him ) about our Lord , and his Throne , and offered to go forth , and be a lying Prophet in the mouth of all the Prophets , to deceaue Achab , and make him belieue , that he should fight prosperously against the King of Syria . Thus in imitation of the Angell in Zachary , he made to Zedechias , the false Prophet of Achab , hornes of iron , and prophesied , though falsly , VVith these Hornes shalt thou strike Syria , till thou destroyest it : And so brought to Achab , and Iosaphat to fight , to both their dangers , and Achabs destruction . Thus did he appeare to the Virgin and Martyr Iuliana , in the midest of his torments vnder Dioclesian , in the shape of a glorious Angel , telling her he was the Angell of our Lord , sent for that end , to wish her to auoid the torments , by counterfeiting the offering of sacrifice , because God was not so cruell as to expect the fortitude of brasse in mortall bodyes , and had deceaued her , if God had not by her prayers , sent a voice from heauen to bewray him , and confort her . Thus he appeared to S. Abraha● an Hermit , witnesse S. Ephrem , in the shape of an Angel shining like the Sunne , at midnight in his Cell , while he was singing , & told him he was so blessed that none was like to him , thereby to exalt him to pride , had not his humble confessing him to be a sinner , and calling vpon Iesus , mad● him vanish away in smoke . Thus he shewed himself to S. Simeon Stylites vpō his pillar , witnesse Antonius his scholer , in the forme of an Angel with a fiery Chariot , and Horses , saying he was sent to take him , as another Elias , to heauen , because the Angells , Apostles , Martyrs , and Prophets , with our B. Lady , desired to see him ; & had deceaued him , if with the signe of the Crosse which he made , as he was about to set his foot into the Chariot , he had not driuen him away . In the like sort he appeared to S. Iohn the Hermite , who foretould Theodosius of his victory , and would haue had him to adore him . Thus he deceaued a certaine Monk ( witnes Cassianus ) to whome , after many false reuelations , he shewed the Christians with the Apostles mourning , and Moyses with the Iewes reioycing , & thereby persuaded him to circumcise himselfe , and become a Iew. Thus in the shap of Moyses ( witnesse Socrates ) he persuaded many Iewes in Creete , to cast themselues from a Rocke into the Sea , in assurance to passe the Sea dry foot , and so to enter againe into the Land of Promise . Sometimes this audacious dissembler hath not beene afraid to assume to himselfe ( thereby the easier to deceaue ) the shape and representation of the Mother of the sonne of God , and of God , of the B. Trinity it selfe . Thus of ancient we read , how he appeared to S. Martin , glorious like a King , richly adorned and crowned , saying to him : I am Christ , who am descended frō heauen to visit thee ; & had deceaued him , if S. Martin inspired by God to know him , had not sayd : I will not belieue that Christ will come in any forme , but that in which he was crucified , at which he vanished away . How he appeared to Secundillus a Deacō , in the shape of Christ , in his Cell , saying : I am Christ , to whome thou so much prayest , & thereby not only persuaded him to leaue his Cell , and to go abroad into the Countrey and do good , but also did by him cure diseases and do strange cures ; whereupon being by his Superiour reprehended , became penitent , commanding the Diuell , that if he were Christ , he should shew the Crosse on which he suffered , he thereupon , and at the signe of the Crosse vanished away and left him . How he appeared to other two mentioned by Gerson , and S. Bonauenture , in the same forme , saying : I am Christ , to whome the one shutting his eyes , and saying : I desire to see Christ in heauen not on earth ; and the other saying : I am not worthy to see Christ , because I am a sinnefull man , the Diuell vanished . How he appeared to S. Pachomius , saying : I am Christ , and am come to thee my faythful seruant , which the holy man by the perturbation of his mind , perceauing to be a Diuel , with the signe of the Crosse made him to vanish . How to Valens a Monke he appeared like Christ , accompanied with many Angells , and caused him to come forth of his Cell , and adore him , & left him so distracted , and raging , that they were forced to bind him . Of examples of later tymes , we read , that he molested the holy man S. Ignatius , in the founding of his Order of the Society , not only interiourly by suggestions , which he did at his study , when by high and mysticall illuminations , he withdrew his attention from his learning the Grammer rules , to which he had seriously applyed himselfe ; but also by visible apparitions , when at Manresa in his first entrance into a spirituall course , he appeared in the forme of a beautiful person with many colours , and eyes , compassing the Crosse before which he prayed , which S. Ignatius by the pensiuenes and perturbation of his mind discouering , caused him by his prayer to vanish . 2. That in the Alpes , the Diuell hauing seduced a Priest , who had the B. Sacrament about him , to go in curiosity with him to see a wonder , brought him to a pallace most beautiful & pleasant , where a Lady in a throne was presented by many , prostrating themselues before her with rich guiftes , vntill the Priest offering the B. Sacrament to her , thinking it was our B. Lady , she and all vanished away , and left him in a strange place , many miles distant from his habitation . 3. Thirdly , to an Hermite , and a Religious man , deceaued by him in Germany in a desart place to which they were carryed , he appeared in the shape of Christ a King , and our B. Lady a Queene , both glorious , set in a rich pallace vpon a shining throne with thousands of Angells , and Saints about them , and receaued al adoration from them , till by the B. Sacrament , which the Religious had in a Pixe , offered to them , al vanished away . That he appeared to certaine women about Milan the yeare 1590. in the habit now of a Monke , now of S. Vrsula with many Virgins with her , and now of our B. Sauiour , amōg whome he persuaded one to be Religious , and leaue the world , and would not desist , till she tould him , she would not do any thing without the aduice of her Ghostly Father . And to conclude , we read , how while S. Norbert the foūder of the Praemonstratenses was meditating vpon the B. Trinity , the Diuell appeared with three heads , telling him , that for his deuotion he had deserued to see the B. Trinity , which by the perturbations of his mind , he perceauing to be the Diuell , defied him , and so was rid of him . All which , with many more the Diuels apparitions and illusions in histories most authenticall recorded , what are they , but so many conuincing arguments to proue both the difficulty of discerning spirits , and also the impossibility of euery priuate spirit to do it ? The difficulty to discerne Spirits , proued by scripture . SECT . V. THE last reason , to proue the difficulty of discerning spirits , is authority ( which is a confirmation to all the former experiences and examples ) of holy Scripture , and holy men , placing the guift of discerning of spirits among the guifts of graces gratis giuen ( to some the discerning of spirits ) doth shew , that as the rest of the guifts , to wit , miracles , tongues , prophesies , and interpreting of Scripture ( of which before ) and the rest , are rare , extraordinary , and giuen to few , and that vsually and necessarily conioyned with grace , or fayth in euery faithfull belieuer : so also this of discerning spirits is in like manner , a guift not cōmunicated to euery faythfull belieuer , who hath the spirit of God , but rarely and extraordinarily to some , who haue the priuiledg of this benefite bestowed vpon them , for the benefit of others . For as it is proper to God both to be , and to be called . (a) Ponderator spirituum , The weigher , and discerner of Spirits , in the same manner as he is the knower of harts , (b) VVho only knowes the hartes of all the children of men : so doth he communicate this guift to some speciall persons , whome he makes , as the Prophets cal them , (c) Proouers , and strong proouers in my people , who shall know and prooue their wayes , in the same manner as in the common wealth are tryers of gold to discerne true , from false . And to these by a speciall prerogatiue he giues this guift , that they (d) may prooue spirits if they be good , and (e) try them , as Gold is tryed in the fire , and (f) separate the precious , from the vile , declaring when it is good , or a good Angell who knocks at the doore , and when it is Sathan , and the bad Angell , who transfigures himselfe into an Angell of light . And as this guift is rare , & giuen only to some ; so it is for the most part giuen to Superiours , who are to direct others in the way of vertue and perfection ; & amōg these , to them who are men humble , as Cassianus affirmes , and very spirituall also , because , Not the sensuall man , but the spirit of God perceaues the thinges which are of God. These partly by long experience , partly by wholesome documents , partly by diuine inspirations , attaine to this perfectiō of discercerning spirits . By which is apparent , that the science of discerning spirits is hard and difficult , because it requires so speciall and supernaturall a guift , which is so rare and extraordinary , and that to speciall kind of persons for the good of others , Which is also confirmed by the testimony of holy men , who haue laboured much , and beene experienced long in this science . S. Bernard , a man extraordinarily spirituall , confesseth that he knew not , VVhen the spirit entred , or when it departed ; which way it came , or which it went ; sometyms he could perceaue it to be present , or to haue beene present ; but neither when it came , or how it went. Gerson a man learned , who laboured and writ much about this discerning of spirits , after much discussion , sayth : That it is a most hard thing to discerne among so many spirits , since in diuerse and contrary spirits there is sush a similitude of inspirations . Thomas à Kempis , one much enlightned in spirituall affaires , sayth : Marke the motions of thyne own nature and my grace ; for in very contrary and secret manner these are moued , and can hardly be discerned , but by him that is spirituall , and inwardly enlightned . Ludouicus Puentes also a maister in spirituall wayes , sayth : That it seemes often an inspiration of God , which is an impulsion of Sathan , and it often carryes a shew of spirituall loue , which is indeed false and carnall loue . And thus it remaines conuinced by reasons drawne from the verity and similitude of spirits by the subtilty and craft of Sathan , who so often and many wayes , transfigures himselfe into an Angell , by the infirmity of mans vnderstanding so vnable to penetrate them ; and by authority of Scripture , and testimony of holy men so experienced in this science , that the art of discerning of spirits is most hard and difficult in it selfe , and aboue the reach and capacity of euery priuate mans ability . Out of all which it doth follow . First , that visions and apparitions are often tymes doubtfull and dangerous , and so rather to be feared , whether they be true or false , and to what end they do tend , then to be desired , or esteemed as signes of holynesse and perfection . For as the guifts gratis giuen , Prophesy , Curing of diseases , and Dispossessing of Diuells &c. are giuen sometymes to persons lesse perfect in vertue , if not vicious in life , and vnbelieuers for fayth : witnesse the prophesyes of the Sybils ( being Gentils ) of Christ ; Of (a) Baalam a sorcerer , of the starre of Iacob ; Of (b) Caiphas most wicked , of Christ dying for all ; Of (c) Saul a reprobate , who had the spirit , and was among the Prophets ; All which had the gift of prophesy . Witnesse also the sonnes of the (d) Pharisies , who cast out Diuels ; & the seauen sonnes of (e) Sceua , with the exorcists of the Iewes , who dispossessed many of Diuels ; so also these visions and apparitions are neither so proper to holy men , but that often they are communicated to bad and wicked , nor yet so certaine that they are alwayes of God , or good Angells , but that they often proceed from Satan ; and as the visions of those spirits , so also the guift of discerning the same , is neyther so proper omni , and soli , to all , and only the good and faythfull , but that it is sometymes giuen to them who are lesse holy , and more wicked of life . Whereupon holy , and wise learned men , as S. Augustine , S. Bonauenture , and Gerson , aduise and persuade , that not only such visions and apparitions are to be feared , yea auoided , and not desired ; but also ordinary persons who haue them , and make shew or ostentation of them , are not to be applauded or admired for them as pious , but seuerely to be reprehended suspected as proud and dangerous , who are not content to tread the high way and beaten path to perfection , but will seeke out new by-wayes , and walke in wonders aboue thēselues . Also many holy persons who haue beene extraordinarily visited from God with them , haue alwayes with that warinesse accepted of them , that they did vse great diligence to examine them , before they would confide in thē . Thus (f) Iacob secretly and diligently considered the visions of Ioseph his sonne related to him . (g) Iosue doubted , & therupon examined the Angell who did appeare to him like an armed man , whether he was of their side , or of the aduersaries . (h) Samuel heard our Lord when he called him in the night , Samuel , Samuel , but did not answere till he rose and went to Heli the high Priest , to know what he should do . (i) Elias seriously deliberated whether our Lord did appeare in the whirle wind , or in the commotion , or in the fire , or in the soft whispering wind . And our (k) B. Lady ( cogitabat ) did muse or study , that is , maturely , and long ( sayth Euthymius ) consider what kind of salutation that was , whether of God , or the Diuell . And the like did the Bishop of Cyprus , at the apparition of S. Barnaby . And S. Ambrose at the inuētion of Geruasius and Protasius . And other holy Saints in all such like occasions , fearing alwayes illusions of Sathan insteed of apparitions of Angells . Secondly . It doth follow , that it is necessary , to auoid all these and such like dangers , to haue euery one a spirituall directour and Maister , on whome as better experienced by practise , & more illuminated by God in his place & functiō , he may more securely rely , then vpon his owne spirit or iudgment . For as the wayes in which men walke are many , & the right way to heauen not easy to be found ; as in the way being found there are many either pits to fall in , or theeues to robbe , and spoile vs ; as the science we are to learne is very heard and intricate , to which our natural wit cannot attaine , and the diseases & infirmities of our body are many & great for which we are vnable to trauell so long and laborious a iourney : So haue we need , & great need of a guide to lead vs in a way so vncertaine and dangerous ; of a Maister to instruct vs in a trade so hard and vnknowne ; and of a Phisitian to cure vs of so many infirmities and diseases . And as no man hath power to absolue himselfe of his sinnes , as no man is made Iudge in his owne cause , as no man is permitted to minister phisicke to his owne body ; so God hath ordained that no man shal be instructer & directour of his owne soule , nor conductour of himselfe in his way to life , but stil depend vpon others to direct and instruct him in the same . For thus our Sauiour first himselfe , for example , would sit hearing and asking among the Doctours , as though he were a scholler . For this cause he sent his vessel of election S. Paul , to be instructed by Ananias , and would not immediatly himselfe direct him what to doe . For this , God would not instruct Moyses in the mountaine himselfe , but sent him to Iethro a gentill , by him to receaue direction , how to gouerne his people . For this S. Augustine being old refused not to be instructed by his Companions yet yong . And thus we read that some who haue had familiar conuersations with Angels , were yet permitted by them to hould some errours in doctrine , till they humbled themselues to others , and by them were instructed . For which it is a generall rule , that he who will not be a disciple to another shal be a maister of errour , and that he who makes himselfe maister to himself , puts himselfe to be scholler to a foole . All which if it be true in morall sciences , & mysteries of faith ; most true it is in discerning of these spirits , in which the difficulty is greater , & the dāger of errour no lesse . 3. To conclude , it doth follow , that since there is such variety of spirits , some good , as of God , of Angels , and of Saints ; and some bad , as of diuels , of the damned , of the flesh , and of the world : Sith there be so diuers kinds of motions , & apparitions of these spirits , some intellectuall , some imaginary , some sensible and visible : Sith there are so great difficulties to be resolued about these seuerall apparitions , so great similitude in their motions , and apparitions , so many rules and differences , vpon long experience , haue beene giuen to discerne them , and so great skill & cunning is requisite to apply them : Sith there be so many , and so dangerous wayes to take , as of Pagans , Iewes , Turks , Heretikes , all differing & condemning one another , all depending vpon the motions of these spirits : Sith such and so high is the excellency of the nature of these spirits to be discerned , such and so weake the infirmity of man to discerne them , & such and so subtile , malicious , and powerfull is mans enemy the Diuell , to deceaue in them , by counterfeit dissimulation of piety , or by forged illusions insteed of reuelations , or by outward apparitions in forme of Saints , Angels , or God , all by verity of examples confirmed : Sith so speciall & extraordinary , so rare and vnvsuall is this gift of discerning these spirits : Sith , I say , all this is so as is proued ; with what reason and iudgment can any man make this priuat spirit , or rather selfe-seeming conceit of his owne braine , a competent , sufficient and infallible iudge to discerne and decide al these questions and difficulties arising vpon them ? What braine-sicke madnesse , & senslesse presumption is it , for euery silly , simple and vnlearned person , man or woman ( all of which challēg this spirit ) to assume so much to themselues , and presume so farre vpon their owne conceit , as to discerne , and declare which of euery one of these spirits is of God , the deuill , or nature ? which is good or bad ? which true or false , either in thēselues or others ? and vpon this presumption , to ground the certainty of their religion , faith , and saluation ? What greater temerity and rashnes can there be , then to build a worke so great and important , as is the eternity of saluation or damnation , vpon no more solid and certaine a ground , then is the proper conceit of euery priuate motion of an vncertaine spirit ? Surely , if men were not blind , or bewitched , and that either willfully or foolishly blinded or bewitched , and both so deeply , that they eyther will not , or cannot see what both sense & reason doth dictate to their owne conscience , what both authority and testimony of God , and holy men doth lay before them , what both examples & experience of so many ages doth confirme vnto thē ; surely , they could not but often doubt , and distruct , & many tymes stagger and relent ( their owne iudgment & conscience , doubtlesse pricking them ) in this their ostentation of the certainty of their spirit ; they could not but sometyms enter into consideration , yea and feele a sensible touch of trepidation in soule , and stand in a wonder and amazemēt at themselues , how they dare venture so far , and stand so confidently in so weighty a matter , vpon the judgement of so vncertaine , vnconstant , & vnwarranted , yea corrupted , deceitfull , and partiall a Iudge , as is this their priuate spirit , conceit , & imagination . What man of reason and discretion , or of care & conscience , will not hould it farre more secure and safe in these points of eternity , with euery good Catholike , to ioyne his spirit with the spirit of the Saints and seruants of God , now reigning in heauen , to subiect his spirit to the spirit of Gods holy Church heere on earth , guided infallibly by an infallible spirit of God , and by conforming themselues to this spirit , to imbrace and follow that Fayth and religion , that doctrine and discipline , that sacrifice and sacraments , which so many Saints and holy men , so many Confessours and learned Doctours , so many Churches and Councells in all ages , throughout all Countryes , belieued in their harts , professed by their liues , defended by their writinges , and sealed and confirmed with their liues & bloud ? And thus much for the first reason against the priuate spirit , drawne from the difficulty to discerne spirits . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS AVTHORITY To interprete Scripture , and iudge of Fayth , confuted by reasons , drawne from the true and infallible authority , and meanes of interpreting holy Scripture . CHAP. V. VVhat Interpretation , Authority , and meanes are necessary & infallible for the sense of Scripture . SECT . I. SVBDIV. 1. What Interpretation of Scripture is necessary ? THE better to vnderstand the reasons drawne from the infallible authority , and meanes of interpreting of Holy Scripture , by which the priuate spirits authority is confuted , we may consider , 1. What interpretatiō that is , which is required as necessary . 2. What authority , as infallible , is required to this intetpretation , and in whome it is resident . 3. What meanes are to be vsed and followed , as certaine by these Interpreters to this interpretation . Out of all which may be inferred and proued the insufficiency of the priuate spirit , to be eyther authour , or meanes of this interpretation of Scripture . First therefore , when we speake of the sense and interpretation of scripture , we speake not of that sense and interpretation which is only probable and credible , but of that which is certaine , and infallible . Not of that which is only for the pulpit and documents of manners , or which is for the schooles and subtiltyes of diuinity ; but of that which is for doctrine of Fayth and articles of beliefe . Not of that which is only to confirme and increase vs in that fayth which we already belieue , but of that which is to persuade and produce fayth a new , eyther in our selues , when , and why we first belieue ; or in others , whome we persuade , first to belieue . And this is that sense of Scripture , which as it is ( being rightly vnderstood , in the sense which the holy Ghost intended ) a firme and solide foundation of true fayth ; so being falsly vnderstood , and wikedly peruerted by false teachers , it is the Mother or nurse of al heresies . For as nothing is persuaded as worthy of beliefe , but which is true , or vnder the shew of truth , and as the scripture is by all granted to be most true : so all vse the text of Scripture as a meane to persuade , that which they would haue to be belieued as true ; the true teachers in the true sense , the false in the false sense , both cyting the wordes and text , but the one in that sense and meaning which the holy Ghost intended , the other in that which they themselues inuented . Which course of false sense , as the Diuell first beganne , when he would haue by Scripture persuaded Christ to cast himselfe downe headlong , saying , It is written , he hath giuen his Angels charge ouer thee : So the members of Sathan follow the same way , and labour by the same Scripture to seduce the members of Christ , as the faythlesse , the faythfull ; the sacrilegious , the religious ; the Heretikes , the Catholikes . For the Iewes would by Scripture haue proued that Christ was not only not Messias , saying , Search the Scriptures , and see that from Gallilee a Prophet ryseth not , but also that he was a malefactour , and such a one as ought to dye , saying , VVe haue a law , and according to our law , he ought to dye . And the same is continued both by Turkes , who receaue both the old and new Testament , but interpreted according to Mahomets Alcaron , and also by all Heretiks , who seek to fill their books not ōly with words of Scripture , but ( sayth Vincent . Lyrin . ) with thousands of testimonies , thousands of examples , thousands of authorityes , out of the Law , the Psalmes , the Prophets , the Apostles , which expounded after a new and ill manner , would thereby throw downe soules from the tower of Catholike fayth , to the pit of wicked heresy ; being as our Sauiour sayth of them , false Prophets , or teachers , who vnder the garments of sheep , that is ( sayth Vincent . Lyrin . the wordes of the Prophets and Apostles ) are rauenous VVolues infesting the fold of the Church , and deuouring the flocke of Christ , and saying , Christ is heere or there , that is , as Origen expounded it , in this or that text of Scripture ; who thus transfiguring themselues into the shew of Apostles or preachers of Christ , do labour to transfer the people into another Ghospell ; who depraue the Scripture to their owne and others destruction : And by the wordes of the Law , sayth S. Ambrose , impugne the Law , and do frame a false sense of the wordes of the Law , that they may confirme their owne peruerse opinions by the authority of the Law. Against al whome we may note the wordes of S. Hilary , saying : That Heresy is about the vnderstanding , not the text of Scripture ; the sense , not the words , is the sinne . And of S. Hierome ; That the Ghospell is not in the wordes , but the sense of scripture ; not in the outward rine , but in the inward marrow ; not in the leaues of wordes , but in the root of the sense . SVBDIV. 2. Who haue authority to make the Interpretation of Scripture ? SEcondly , this sense and meaning of scripture , because it is not facil and easy to be knowne to all , by reason of the great obscurity in the wordes , the great fecundity in the sense , and the great profundity in the mysteries , or articles belieued , ( which cannot by euery one , nor by any one , without the assistance of the same spirit which penned it , be vnderstood ) therfore is necessary some authentical , certain , and infallible authority , for the true vnderstanding of this authenticall , certaine , and infallible sense of scripture . This authority , because it is in the Catholike Church , & chiefly in the Pastours and Prelates of the same , for the better gouernement of it in true doctrine , vpon whom God hath bestowed the infallible assistance of his holy spirit , ( as is afterward proued ) therfore their authority is necessary for the finding out the true and certaine sense of scripture . Whensoeuer therfore the chiefe Pastour , or Pastours of the Church vsing the meanes for it appointed ( of which in the next proposition ) do , either ex Cathedra , or in a Councell confirmed & approued , or by a generall consent , propose , deliuer , and declare any sense or exposition of scripture as true , and to be belieued as an article of faith in any controuersy against heretikes , then is that sense to be receaued , for their authority , as authenticall , certaine , and infallible . From whence ensues , that though in matters of Philosophy and reason we must rather attend what is said , thē by whome it is said , and respect rather the force , then the authority of the person who sayes it ; yet in matters of faith we must first respect them who preach , and the authority and commission of their person , and by it iudge of their doctrine preached . For if the person be lawfully sent , if he haue lawfull commission , if he be a lawfull pastour , not deuided by heresy or schisme from the whole body ; then the people are to attend to him , and for his commission to receaue his doctrine : but if he want mission & commissiō , if he teach of himselfe and his owne authority , if he produce the doctrine not of the Church-proposition , but of his owne inuention ; let him teach what he wil , proue it how he wil , he is not to be heard nor belieued by the common and vulgar people ; to whom it belonges to be obedient & subiect to the authority of their Pastour , not to iudge of the verity of his doctrine more , then in generall , whether it be consonant or dissonant from the vniuersally receaued doctrine of the Church ( for they are to (a) obey their Pastours , to remaine in the same rule (b) in the faith first deliuered , (c) in that which they heard from the beginning , (d) to auoid profane nouelties of words , (e) & not to receiue any other Ghospel (f) or doctrine , (g) but that which they learned and receaued from the beginning ) leauing the particulars to the testimony of others , either equal to their pastour in function , or superiour to him in authority . Which point is to be noted against the Manichees of old , and the Protestants of late , who respect not the authority of the Preacher , but the force of his reason : & attend not to the commission of the Pastour , who he is that teacheth , but to the plausibility of his doctrine , what it is , and how far it is pleasing to their priuat spirit , disposition , or iudgment . SVBDIV. 3. What meanes are to be vsed to make this Interpretation : and of foure Rules of infallible interpreting of scripture . Thirdly . The meanes which are to be obserued , vsed , and followed by these Pastours or Prelats for the securing vs of this true sense of scripture , are these . 1. The rule of faith , that is , the Catholike and vniuersally receiued doctrine of faith and piety which was deliuered by the Apostles , & receiued by posterity . 2. The generall practise , or obseruatiō , custome or tradition of the whole Church in pointes where the doctrine is not certaine . 3. The auncient exposition , or consent of the holy fathers and doctours of the primitiue Church , where the former do not appeare . 4. The decrees and definitions of the Councels , either generall , or prouincial , approued by generall , and the conformity to them in all expositions doubtfull . Th●se are as so many rules or conducts , according to which the certaine , and authenticall sense of scripture is , by the Pastours of gods Church , to be squared and guided . First , that the rule of fayth is to be presupposed , obserued and followed in the finding out the true sense of scripture , is proued . 1. This rule of Fayth is by S. Paul ( who often doth mention it ) called sometymes a rule which bringeth peace , VVho (a) haue followed this rule , peace be on them . Sometimes a rule in which they are to remaine to auoid dissentions , Let (b) vs remaine in the same rule , that we may iudge the same . Sometymes his rule which he deliuered to them and by which they are to increase in fayth , Your (c) fayth increasing according to our rule . Sometymes a reason of Fayth , according to which is giuen the guift of prophesy , or interpretation of scripture , Donations (d) or prophesy , according to the rule of Fayth . And in effect it is no other , but the (e) doctrine they receaued ; (f) the fayth preached through the whole world ; (g) the disposition or forme of true doctrine , which they had learned , and is committed to them , The (h) doctrine which they receaued frō the beginning ; VVhich (i) was first euangelized to them ; Or (k) the precepts of the Apostles and ancients ; Or (l) rather of our Sauiour deliuered by the holy Prophets and Apostles ; And (m) the word of God which remaines for euer . That the knowledge of this rule or doctrine of fayth is presupposed to the true knowledge , and vnderstanding of scripture , is proued both by scripture , and reason . By scripture , the Prophet Isay sayth , as S. Cyprian , and S. Augustine do both of them read and vnderstand it : Except you belieue , you cannot vnderstand , that is , sayth S. Cyprian , the Iewes cannot vnderstand the scripture , except they first belieue in Christ . S. Augustine sayth : There be some of you , who vnderstand not , and therefore they vnderstand not , because they belieue not ; let vs first adhere by Fayth that we may be reuiued by vnderstanding . And in another place : Fayth must go before Vnderstanding , that the vnderstanding may be the reward of Fayth . Therefore Fayth , and the rule of fayth , is necessary before the vnderstanding of Scripture . Secondly , the Scripture for the sense , is a Booke sealed with seauen seales : these seales none can open , but he , who hath the key of Dauid . This key of Dauid is giuen only to them who are faythfull with Dauid , therfore the key of faith is requisit to the opening the sense of the booke of scripture : which is confirmed by S. Hierome , who alleadging the same words sayth ; The Law is spirituall , and requires reuelation , that it be vnderstood . For proofe of which he produceth the example of the Eunuch , who read , but vnderstood not the scripture , till Philip did expound it to him , made him faythfull , and so became of a scholler , a Maister . Thirdly , Euery learned Scribe in the Kingdome of Heauen is like to a man , the maister of a family , who bringeth out of his treasure new and old . The Scribes were the Maisters and Interpreters of scripture , but they were in the kingdome of heauen , that is , in the Church , by Fayth , and so did interprete the new and old Testament ; which S. Augustine alleadging to the same purpose against the Manichees sayth : You (*) vnderstand not because you belieue not , as sayth I say , for you are not instructed in the kingdome of heauen , that is , in the true Catholike Church of Christ ; for if you were , you would produce old and new out of the scriptures . Therfore one must be a scholler in the Church by fayth , before he can come to vnderstand the scripture , as a Maister . Fourthly , S. Paul sayth to Timothy : Thou hast learned holy scriptures from thy infancy , which are able to instruct thee to saluation by fayth , which is in Christ. If the scriptures instruct by Fayth , then Fayth is prerequired before we can be instructed by them , or vnderstand them . Fifthly , the holy Fathers and Doctours of the Church haue , by the breach of this rule , as a signe , discerned Heretikes , and by the authority of it , as a strong argument , confuted the same . Thus were discerned Marcion , Valentinus , C●rinthus , and Basilides , by their deprauing the rule of truth ; witnesse (a) Irenaeus . Thus Paulus Samosatenus , by his forsaking the Canon of the Church , and flying to strange and adulterous doctrine . Thus Montanus , by his vttering strange words , contrary to the custome of the Church , deriued by tradition and succession from the Apostles , witnes of both (b) Eusebius . Thus Nestorius , by forsaking the ancient doctrine , and introducing of new , witnes (c) Socrates . And thus all Heretikes , by their forsaking the rule of Christianity , witnesse (d) S. Augustine . They being all esteemed to haue truth on their side , who walke according to the rule which the Church receaued from the Apostles , the Apostles from Christ , witnes (e) Tertullian . Thus did S. Hierome (f) confute , and confound the heresy of the Luciferians , by the light of the Sunne of the Church . (g) Gregorius Nazianzen the same , by the doctrine abhorring the same . (h) S. Basil the Eunomians , by the vnwrittē tradition of the Church . (i) Athanasius the Arians , by the authority of the Orthodoxe Church , and his ancestors opposite to them , and abhorring their doctrine . (k) S. Epiphanius the Melchisidechians , by the tradition of the Apostles , and succession of doctrine . The (l) Millenarians , by their transgressing the limits of the holy Church of God , and the hope of Propheticall and Apostolicall tradition in fayth and doctrine : And the (m) Demer●s , and other Heretikes , by the style of Christianisme , and the phrase of the Apostles receaued from the Fathers . S. Augustine (n) the Pelagians , by the grounded custome of the Church , hastening to baptisme infants . (o) By the most ancient knowne and vndoubted rule of Fayth , & truth . (p) And by the authority of the Church so commended in scr●pture . The (q) Donatists , by the authority of the Church , and by apostolicall Tradition . And both Irenaeus , Origen , and S. Augustine did confute all Heretikes , by the tradition of the Apostles , manifest to the whole world in the Church , sayth (r) Irenaeus . By the Ecclesiasticall tradition dissented off by none , sayth (s) Origen . By the Catholike Church , whose not receauing any opinion is sufficient ( sayth (t) S. Augustine ) to confound any heresy . Therfore the doctrine and practise of the ancient Fathers was to discerne and confute all Heretikes by this rule of Fayth . Sixthly , the same is proued by Reason , because the scripture is the booke of the faythfull , not the faithlesse ; therefore as it was writ to the faythfull , as the conuerted Iewes , Romans , Corinthians &c. so it is vnderstood truely , only by the faythfull , as the Christians , not by the Infidels , as the Iewes , Turkes , and Heretikes , who haue , and read the wordes , but vnderstand not the sense , & meaning , because the veile is yet ouer their eyes , in the reading of it , for want of fayth ; therefore the letter , that is , the words and reading of it doth kill them , and is to them a ministration of death ; and only the spirit , that is , the vnderstanding of it doth giue life to them who haue fayth . Of which necessity of Fayth , prerequired to the vnderstanding of Scripture , see Stapleton de principijs Doctrinalibus , where the same is further proued out of the ancient Fathers testimonyes , to wit , S. Augustine , Irenaeus , Origen , Athanasius , Cyrill of Alexandria , Theodoret , and Vincentius Lyrin . who sayth , that the holy and learned men did interprete the holy Scripture , according to the traditions of the Catholike Church , and the rule of Catholike fayth . And againe , That the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation must be directed according to the rule of the Catholike and Ecclesiasticall sense . Which , and much more he alleadges against the custome of Heretikes , who haue alwayes the Scripture in their mouth , and out of it do confirme their errours . Out of which may be inferred , how vntruly and fraudulently the Protestants do generally auerre , that in the scripture the spirit of God is , and is to be sought and found ; and that by industry and reading of the words and text the spirit is to be found . Whereupon they make the words of scripture , as they are heard or read , not only the organ or instrument of faith , as much as wee make the Sacrament instrument of grace ; but also the sole instrument , which with diligence read or heard , they prescribe as the only meanes to receiue faith and saluation . For first , as a man consists of body and soule , and the body of it selfe being senslesse & dead , is the inferiour ●●rt ; the soule being life and giuing life , is the principal part , without which he is not man : So the Scripture consists of the words or text which is read or heard , and is only the body , barke , or couering of Gods word , and of the sense and meaning which is vnderstood & belieued , and is the life , soule and substance of the scripture . Now the words , as they are written or spoken , consisting of letters , syllables , & words , are dead without life , and common to Gentils , Iewes , and hereticks , with the faithfull : yea in the same manner as the law is called a law of sinne ; so are they by S. Paul , said to Kill , & to be ministration of death . Because according to S. August . the letter read and not truly vnderstood , or not performed , is occasion of heresy and sinne ; some gathering out of it , as out of the flower , poison of heresy like the spider ; others hony of faith like the bee . The sense and meaning , as it is truly vnderstood & belieued ( which is properly the word of God ) is an effectuall meanes more piercing thē any two-edged sword , & an operatiue vertue to saluation , but to whome ? to all that belieue . And to whom it is so proper , that it is by faith only conceaued and attained , and by faith only belieued & vnderstood ? Secondly . As the bare letter , words , and text of scripture without true sense are not the word of God , so they do not containe the spirit of God or the holy ghost in them , neither is the holy ghost thus inherent , resident , or to be sought & found in the scripture , but in the hart and soule of the writers of scripture , that is , the Prophets or Apostles , in whom as it did remaine , and dictate to them what they writ , so did it reueale and manifest to them the true sense & meaning of the same , though perhaps not alwayes the whole & complete meaning , and all senses of the scripture ( for by reason of the fecundity of senses in Gods word , many , or al of them were not , according to S. Augustine alwayes reuealed to the same Apostles or prophets , but some reserued to the authour of it the holy ghost it selfe . ) And as the spirit of God is not inherent or resident in the bare words , sillables , or text of scripture ; so the spirit or spiritual true sense of scripture is not to be sought or found only in , or out of the bare words , and their grammaticall signification , but out of the rule of faith expounded according to the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike doctrine of beliefe . Not by humane labour and industry of study , but by the meane of faith and diuine reuelation . For the words are translated into other languages different from that in which they were originally written , and haue diuers and various significations and senses , as litterall , moral , allegoricall , and anagogicall ; and are by seuerall expositions drawne to suport diuers seuerall , yea contrary faithes , and religions . Also great labour , diligence and study haue beene vsed by many men of great wit , learning , and knowledge in the expounding & seeking out the true sense of scripture , who yet haue beene so far from finding it , as that they haue inuented many false and heretical meanings , and therupon grounded many wicked and damned heresies . Out of al which it doth follow , that the words of scripture , and the diligent and frequent reading or hearing of it , are so far from being a necessary meanes of faith , much lesse the sole & whole meanes to it , that faith is a meanes necessary & presupposed to the vnderstanding of scripture . For if the scripture consist not in the words and letter only , but in the sense & vnderstanding principally ; and if the sense depend not vpon the bare words , but vpō the Ecclesiastical & catholicke rule , & tradition of faith , as is proued ; then must faith be prerequired , as a help and meanes to find out the true sense of scripture . And they who will read scripture must bring faith with them , as a help and meanes to vnderstand the scripture , and not ground their faith vpon their reading of scripture ; which being diligently read , though it may serue to cōfirme and nourish faith in ones selfe , or to illustrate and defend it to others , and in both being , according to the rule of faith interpreted , a light to direct them in the way of piety , and to enflame them with the heat of Charity : yet it can neither be a first , and firme ground to cause and produce first and certaine faith in any ( for a man must bring faith to belieue it ) nor a sufficient meanes to resolue all points of faith necessary to saluation , as besids other reasons , the practise of so many heresies , diuided , & pretended to be grounded all vpon it , doth conuince ; and the experience made ( for example ) of three persons , Iews , Turks , or Pagans , all ignorant of Christian religion , all turned to a bare text of the bible , all willed to seeke out , and resolue in particular articles , formerly or presently controuerted in Christian religion , will no doubt , by their seuerall & contrary resolutions , confirme the same . And thus much of the rule of faith as a necessary meanes of expounding scripture . The second meanes of expounding the holy scriprure , is the generall practise or obseruation , the publike Custome or tradition of the whole Church , in the exercise of any religious seruice or worship , or in the practise of any sacrifice , sacrament , or ceremony , in which as the Church it selfe cannot erre , so it may be a guide in expounding the scripture to keep others from errour , that where the doctrine of the Church is not euident , there the practise and obseruation of the same may serue . This practise we will proue by the practise of the chiefe Doctours in Gods Church , for by this did the ancient Fathers expound many places and conuince many Heretikes . By this practise admitting the lapsed to pennāce , did Epiphanius conuince the Nouatians who reiected them . By this practise , of saying Glory be to the Father , the Sonne , and the holy Ghost , did S. Basil conuince Origen about the deity of the holy Ghost , vrging his owne practise with the rest , against Origens owne doctrine against the rest . By this practise of baptizing in the name of the Father , the Sonne , & the holy Ghost , did Theodoret conuince Arius , who denyed the equality of the Sonne with the Father . By this practise of exorcising , & breathing vpon Infants in the Sacramēt of Baptisme , did S. Augustine affirme the Bishops of Palestine to haue expounded that of Rom. 5. in whome all sinned , of originall sinne , deriued from Adam by propagation , not imitation only . By this same practise of the Church praying for the conuersion of Infidels , and perseuerance of the faythfull , did he proue against the same Pelagians , grace of predestination and perseuerance . By the same practise did he reconcile those places of Scripture , of eating all that is set before vs , and of not eating with sinners . And to omit many other , by the same practise of the Church , not rebaptizing them baptized by Heretikes , did he refuse to adhere to S. Cyprian and his opinion , and confuted him , and all the Bishops of Africa , Cappadocia , Bythinia , and the rest , who maintained the contrary . And to conclude , by this practise , which he had learned publikly Eusebius , did also alleadge Iustinus , Miltiades , Tatian , Clemens , Irenaeus , Meliton , and others against Artemon . The same that did these Fathers , did also the generall Councels . The first Councell of Nice , by the testimonyes which they had from the Fathers ( witnes Athanasius ) did decree against Arius . The Councell of Ephesus following the confessions of the Fathers ( sayth it selfe ) and alleadging ( sayth Vincent Lyr. ) in particuler , Most of the East and VVest Doctours as Maisters , Confessours , witnesses , Iudges , held their doctrine , followed their counsell , belieued their testimony , obeyed their iudgment , and so pronounced their sentence of fayth against Nestorius . The Councell of Calcedon , following ( sayth it selfe ) the holy Fathers , the faith of the Fathers , the exposition of the Fathers , doth determine what is pious and Catholike fayth , against Eutiches . The sixth generall Councell ( witnesse both the letters of Pope Agatho , and the Synode it selfe ) doth produce the testimonyes of Fathers for the exposition of scripture , and thereby condemned the Monothelites . The seauenth generall Councell , and the second of Nice doth the same , witnesse the letters of Pope Adrian , against the Image-breakers . And the Councell of Vienna , witnesse the letters of Pope Clement , in their definitions . So that all antiquity , whether in priuate disputations , or in publike definitions , hath alwayes vsed the testimony of Fathers , as a meane in declaring the authenticall sense of scripture , against Heretikes . The fourth , and most infallible meane of expounding the Scripture , is a Councell either generall , or prouinciall confirmed by a generall , in which whatsoeuer is not obiter , by the way , nor as a proofe only , but on set purose , and as a conclusion or definition deliuered and defined , that is without all question or examination , to be receaued as a certaine , infallible , and authenticall sense of scripture . Which ( to omit all testimonies before cyted for the authority of Councels ) is proued by the practise of the faythfull in all Councels ; for in the Nicen Councell were many places of scriptures for proofe of the consubstantiality of Christ produced and discussed , and the Orthodoxe Fathers vrged and pressed diuers Texts of the same . The Arians answered and interpreted them , and vrged likwise many against the same . The conclusion was , the Fathers of the Councell preuailed , and concluded both the doctrine of Christs diuinity , & the sense of the places of Scripture alleadged for it . This definition was to all posterity so forcible , that though the Arians vsed all force of temporall power , ( which afterward was wholy for them ) though they summoned ( as Athanasius saith ) aboue ten Coūcels or Conuenticles against that one ; though they sought in a Councell at Hierusalem to restore their Bishops deposed , and in a Councell at Antioch to bring in a new forme of faith couched in words , not vnlike to the Nicene forme ; and in a Councell at Smirna did affirme craftily the Sonne to haue beene before his mother , and before all times , and not a creature like to others ; though in the Councell at Ariminum they deceaued many Catholicke Bishops , and cunningly obtruded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , like substance , for the same substance , which in greek differed only in a letter ; though they sent Legates into Italy , France , and al places with faire shewes and promises of vnion of subscribing , and of submitting themselues : ( but cunningly and disemblingly , as the Protestants did at the first , and chiefly Melanchton & Bucer , about Transubstantiation ) yet to all posterity and succeeding ages those places of scripture haue euer beene receaued and beleiued in that sense which the Councell then interpreted , and vrged them : so that , that Councel hath beene a rule euer since for the exposition of them , to all faithfull and true belieuers in Christ . In like manner in the Councell of Ephesus , hauing discussed diuers places before controuerted , whether they were spoken of the natures or persons of Christ ; resolued that they were to be vnderstood of plurality of natures , not persons in Christ . And though Nestorius , the eloquent Patriarch of Constantinople , and many Bishops with him , withstood the Councell ; and though Theodoret , the most learned Catholicke Bishop of that age , long opposed S. Cyrill about the same ; yet the authority of the Councell so far preuailed both then and euer since , that all faithfull euer after haue alwayes receaued , & expounded them in the same sense , as true , and condemned the contrary as false . And the like might be produced of other places for the humanity of Christ , against the Manichees and Apollinarists . For his two natures against the Eutichians and Monothelites . For the holy Ghost against the Macedonians & Eunomians . And so for transubstantiation against Berengarius , and the Sacramentaries , which for breuity are omitted . And thus much of these foure rules or meanes , to wit , 1. The rule of Faith. 2. The practise of the Church . 3. The consent of Fathers : and 4. The decrees of Councels , by which the Pastours and Prelates of Gods Church are to be directed , and vpon which we may infallibly rely for any true , certaine , authenticall , & infallible sense of scripture . There be other helps which are good and profitable , as the consideration of the antecedents and consequences of places , the conference of one place with another , the obseruation of Scripture-phrases , and the skill & examination of the originall texts : but because they are neither certaine nor infallible , but only probable , yea often doubtfull , and somtimes deceitfull , nor yet proper and peculiar to Christians , but cōmon to Iewes , Pagans , Heretiks , and all sortes , and also not to our purpose for the present ; therfore we will omit them , and shew , that the priuate spirit , which the Protestants most insist vpon , and which we vndertake to confute , neither is , nor can be any certaine and infallible meanes of interpreting scripture , as they do both in doctrine and pactise mantaine . That the priuate spirit cannot haue this infallible authority , and be this infallible meanes . SECT . II. THESE being supposed for the finding out the authority certaine , and meanes necessary , for true interpretation of holy scripture ; it remaines to be proued that the priuate spirit of euery particular man , neither hath in it any certainty or authority , nor yet can be a fit meanes vpō which any certaine and authenticall exposition of scripture can be grounded . Which is to be performed two wayes . 1. By reasons drawne from the property and condition of the holy scripture , and the sense and meaning of it . 2. By reasons drawne from the property and condition of the priuate spirit , and the vncertainty , and deceitfulnes of it . SVBDIV. 1. By reasons drawne from the nature of holy Scripture , which is to be expounded . FIrst therefore for the holy Scripture , such is the difficulty of it ( which ariseth partly from the ambiguity of the words including diuers significations , partly from the fecūdity of the significatiōs affording multiplicity of senses , partly from the profundity of the matter inuolued in misteries obscure and exceeding our capacity ) such , I say , is the difficulty of the scripture which aryseth out of these grounds that no priuate man , nor any priuate spirit of any man , can secure himselfe of the certainty of any , much lesse of all of them . For if we respect the words and text of scripture , this spirit cannot vpon any ground assure any man , that either this booke rather then another , is the diuine word of God ; or of this booke , that this is the true and complete Canon ; or of this Canon , that this is the first and originall text ; or of this text that it is the right & authenticall translation ; or of this translation , that any one , rather thē another , is the true and Canonical sense ; or of these senses , that one more then other containes all articles and points necessary to saluation ; all which are yet necessary to be expounded . This spirit cannot expresse and assure what booke is Canonicall , and what not . It cannot accord the Lutherans and Caluinists , whether the Epistle to the Hebrewes of Iames , 2. of Peter , the 2. and 3. of Iohn ; nor the Catholikes and Protestants , whether the bookes of Machabees , Toby , Iudith , Hester &c. be canonicall or not . It cā giue no reason why there should be admitted into the Canon of scripture , the Gospels of Mathew , Marke , Luke , and Iohn , and not the Gospels of Thomas , Nathanael , Matthias , Thadaeus , Bartholomew , Iames , Iohn &c Andrew , Paul , Nicodemus , the Hebrews , the Egiptiās , with that of Peter , or the Nazarits . It can giue no reason , why the Epistles of S. Paul , Iames , Iohn , Iude , & Peter should be admitted , and why not those of Barnabas , of Luke , & the rest of S. Peter , & of S. Paul , that to the Laodiceans , the 3. to the Corinthians , & the 3. to the Thessalonians . It can giue no reason , why the Acts writ by S. Luke should be admite●d , and not the Acts writ by Peter & by Paul , and by Andrew , Thomas , Iohn , Philip , and Matthias , nor the Periods of Paul & Thecla , nor the Constitutions of the Apostles , or the booke of Hermes , or Enoch ; why the Apocalyps of S. Iohn should be amittted , & not the Apocalyps of S. Peter , Paul , Thomas , Stephen , Elias , nor the death of our Lady , the circuite of S. Iohn , the sentences of Bartholomew , the ascension of Esie : all which haue beene extant , and by some challenged as Canonicall , as may be seene in Doctour Stapleton . It cannot resolue , and assure what bookes were originally writ in Hebrew , what in the Chaldean , what in the Greeke , or Latine tongue ; who they were that writ the bookes of the old Testament , and whether they be the same which were first written , and the same sound , and vncorrupted . Whether this Hebrew text be the same , either in Character or letter ( of which is question ) or in wordes ( of which many doubt ) which was first written . What is the sense , signification , phrase , or stile of any Hebrew word . Whether the Greeke of the Septuaginte , which the Apostles followed , be sound and incorrupted , and to be preferred before the Hebrew . Whether the ancient Latin vulgar , or others of later translation , as of Erasmus , Luther , Oecolampadius , Bibliander , Beza , Castalio , Tremelius , and others , be to be followed . Whether of any English translations , the Catholike translation of the Rhemist , or the Protestants of Tindall , of King Edward , of the Bishops , of Geneua , or of King Iames , are to be receaued as true , & which is to be rejected as false . None of these can the priuate spirit in euery ordinary man , nor yet in the learned Protestant certainly decide , and resolue . It cannot satisfy , and assure when the wordes are in the literall or mysticall sense to be vnderstood . And for the literall , when it passeth from speaking of thinges carnall , to thinges spirituall , from temporal to eternall , from the kingdome of Israell , to the kingdome of Christ , as often in the Psalmes and Prophets it doth . As for exāple , from the Kings of Syria and Israell , to our B. Lady & (a) Christ . From the King of Babylon to (b) Lucifer . From Salomon to (c) Christ . From the barly Bread , to the sacramentall (d) Bread. And for the mysticall sense , when it is to be vnderstood morally for manners , when allegorically of Christ , or the Church militant , when anagogically , of glory , or the Church triūphant . When the same wordes beare a proper , and when a figuratiue sense ; and of the figuratiue sense , when the figure is Synecdoche , the part for the whole . When Metonimya the signe or cause for the effect . When it is Catechresis , by which the inuentour of a thing is called Father , Cittyes are called Daughters , posterity is called House &c. When by Hiperbole or exageration the whole world , is put for much , all for many . When by Liptote , or diminution , Idols are called vaine thinges , ●oxious , vnprofitable . When by Analoge , one person , tyme , number , gender , or signification is set for another . When by Hend●adis , two thinges are put for one , as signes and tymes , for signes of tymes . When by Prolepsis or anticipation , places & citties are named by names , which afterward were giuē them . When by Analoge or mutation , one sense , as seeing , is set for another , as hearing , tasting &c. When by Hetorosis , the abstracte , as abomination , for the concrete , as abominable . By Haebraisme , causalites or similituds ar omitted , tenses are changed , persons or matters are supposed : when an occasion is set downe for a cause , the euent for the effect , the diuel for sinne , eternity for a long time . When sinne is meant for sinne it selfe , or for a sacrifice or punishment of sinne , God for an angell , a desire , of doing for the deed , an act , as of seeing , for the obiect , of feare , for the thing , or person feared . When lawes are called by names of precepts , statutes , iustice , iudgement , testimonies , or testamēt . When works of the law of nature , or of faith , are tearmed only works or faith . When Christ is taken for the person of Christ the head , or for the body of Christ the Church , or for both . When father is meant essentially for God , or personally for the first person only . When by the Church is meant the Church militant or triumphant ; the whole body , or principal members . When Predestination is to glory , or to grace . When obduration is actiue by our selues , or permissiue by God. When Christian liberty , is for liberty from sinne , or misery frō the law of Moyses , or Christ , or from obedience to Princes or Prelates &c. All which and many more are difficulties vsuall , and controuerted in the scripture both of the old and new Testament . This priuate spirit in euery man cannot explicate when the figure is not only in the words , but in the matter ; when one thing is a figure of another , as the paschall lambe , of Christ , the red sea , of baptisme , the māna , of the Eucharist , mount Sion of the Church ; or when one thing is a figure of many things , as Ionas of Christ and the Iewes ; the rocke , of the baptisme of the faithfull , and the punishment of the vnfaithfull ; the flood of Noe of baptisme , and of damnation . When one and the same thing is a figure in one sense , not in an other , as the fornicating wife of Osee , was of the Iewes , as she sinned in fornication before mariage , not as she liued chast after mariage . This spirit cannot explicate in euery one many seeming contradictions ; as that (a) the sonne shall not beare the iniquity of the father , and (b) that God doth visit the iniquity of the fathers vpon the Children to the third , and fourth generation . That (c) the gifts of God are without repentance , and (d) God repented that he made Saul King. That (e) In the Arke was nothing els but two Tables of stone , and (f) In the arke were the pitcher of manna , the rod of Aaron , and the Tables . That (g) Do not answere a foole according to his folly , and (h) answer a foole according to his folly . That ( i ) God made not death , and (k) life and death are of God. That (l) The disciples should take nothing in the way , not a rodde , and (m) should take nothing in the way but a rodde . That (n) If I giue testimony of my selfe my testimony is not true , and (o) If I do giue testimony of my selfe my testimony is true . That (p) Mary came to the monument when it was yet darke , and (q) She came when the sunne was risen . That (r) A man is iustified by faith without works , and (s) A man is iustified by works , and not by faith . That ( t ) If I did please men I should not be the seruant of Christ , (t) and (u) I please al men in all things . That (w) S. Pauls companions at his conuersion with many others did heare a voice , and (x) did not heare a voice . All which , with many more , many very learned , both ancient , as S. Augustine , and moderne , as diuers Interpreters haue with great paines , in great volumes , laboured to reconcile . This spirit cannot vnfould many bookes , Chapters , and places in scripture most difficult , as the first Chapter of Genesis about the creation of the world , the bookes of Kings , Paralipomenon , and the Acts of the Apostles ▪ about Genealogies , and reignes of Kinges . The Prophesy of Daniel about the seauenty weekes . Of Ezechiel about the Temple . Of S. Iohn in the Apocalips , about the Angels , the seales , the trumpets , the phyals , the dragon , the whore , and the rest ; in which , saith S. Hierome , are as many misteries as words . If one should aske this spirit in euery ordinary Protestant , how it will explicate and reconcile Moyses , who according to the Hebrew and vulgar edition , omits Cainam betweene Arphaxad & Sala , and with him 130. yeares in the genealogy of Adam , with S. Luke who folowing the greek of the Septuaginte doth adde Cainā . How it will accord the Hebrew text , which accounts but 292. yeares from Noe to Abraham , with the Septuaginte who account 942. yeares , adding more then the hebrew , 100. yeares almost to euery generation or person . How it will accord the hebrew text which from Adam to Noe reckons vp but 1656. yeares , with the greeke of the Septuaginte which reckons vp 2242. yeares , somtimes adding , somtimes detracting from the former . How it will make an agreement betwixt the history of Moyses in Genesis , and the relation of S. Luke in the Acts. 1. in Abrahās departure out of Haram , Moyses , by computation , affirming it to haue beene before the death of his Father Thare ( for Abraham (a) was 75. years old , when he departed , and was borne in the (b) 70. yeare of his Father Thare , who liued (c) 205. and so Abraham departed out of the Land when Thare his Father was 141. yeares old , that is 60 yeares before he dyed ) and yet S. Steuen sayth (d) he departed after Thare his fathers death . 2. In the tyme of the Israelites mansion in Aegypt , Moyses by computation affirming it to haue beene but 215. yeares ( which S. Paul (e) confirms accounting from the promise to Abraham , till the departure out of Aegypt , but 430. years , that is , 215. before the entrāce , and 215. after the entrance , till their departure ; and yet S. Luke (f) and S. Steuen affirme , from the entrance till the departure to haue beene 400. 3. In the number of persons that entred into Aegypt with Iacob , Moyses saying that they were but (g) 66. or (h) 70. and S. Steuen and S. Luke saying that they were (i) 75. 4. About the buriall of Iacob , & in this , 1. in the place , Moyses saying it was in Hebron ouer against (k) Mambre , and S. Luke and S. Steuen saying it was in (l) Sichē . 2. In the seller of the field or sepulcher , Moyses affirming Abraham to haue bought it of Ephrem the sonne of (m) Seor ; and S. Luke and S. Steuen of the sonnes of (n) Hemor : Which Hemor , sayth (o) Moyses , sold it to Iacob , not Abraham , and was according to Moyses the Father of Sichem ; not , as S. Luke and S. Steuen say , the sonne of (p) Sichem . 3. In the buyer of the same sepulcher , Moyses affirming that (q) Iacob , S. Luke that Abraham bought it of them . 4. In the price of the sayd sepulcher or field , Moyses affirming Iacob to haue bought it for a 100. (r) Lambes , or to haue got it by the sword , or bow from the (s) Amorrhoites ; S. Luke and S. Steuen affirming him to haue bought it for siluer . If one should aske , how the bookes of the Kinges and Paralipomenon , and the Acts , can by this spirit be explicated , and made agree . 1. In the yeares of Saul , who 1. Reg. 13.1 . is sayd , to haue beene a child of two yeares old when he began to raigne , and to haue raigned two yeares ; and yet 1. Reg. 9.2 . he is sayd before his raigne to haue been higher by the shoulders vpward then any in Israell ; and Act. 15.12 . to haue reigned 40. yeares . 2. About the computation of tyme , from the diuision of the land vnder Iosue to Samuel , which according to S. Luke and S. Paul in his speach in the Synagogue at Antioch , Act. 13.20 . according to the Greeke and Protestant edition , are 450. yeares ; but according to the computation made by raigne of the Iudges , are but 345. For 3. Reg. 6.1 . the Temple was built 480. yeares after the departure out of Aegypt , from which if there be deduced 50. from the departure till the diuision of the land , and also 40. of Samuel and Sauls raigne , & 40. of Dauids , togeather with 4. of Salomons raigne ( which in all make 134. as they are collected out of Scripture ) there remaines from the departure out of Aegypt , till the building of the Temple , not 450. years , as S. Luke relats , but only 345. 3. About the raigne of Ioram King of Iuda , and Ochozias his sonne after him ; for Ioram began to raigne when he was 32. years old , & raigned 8. years , which (a) for his whole life is 40. & yet Ochozias his sonne , who succeeded him , is sayd to haue beene 42. yeares old when he began to raigne , 2. Para. 22.2 . by which he ( being 42. yeares old when his Father dyed , being but 40. ) should be two years elder then his Father , who begat him ; a question to S. Hierome inexplicable . 4. About the raigne of Ioachim , or Iechonias King of Iuda , who is sayd , 2. Paral. 36.9 . to haue beene but eight yeares old , and 4. Reg. 24.8 . to haue beene eighteen years old , both of them when he began to raigne . 5. About Ioram King of Israel , who is sayd to haue begun his raigne , 4. Reg. 1.17 . in the second yeare of Ioram King of Iuda , and yet 4. Reg. 3.1 . to haue begun the same in the eighteen yeare of Iosaphat , who was Iorams Father , and raigned 25. yeares . 6. About the supputation of tyme , as it is counted by the raigne of the Kings of Iuda , and of Israel ; for from the beginning of the kingdome of Israel in the first of Roboam King of Iuda , till the end of the same in the sixth of Ezechias , when Samaria was taken , are 260. yeares , according to the raigne of the Kinges of Iuda ; and yet in the same tyme , according to the raigne of the Kinges of Israel , are only 240. yeares . To all which , if we adde the difficult places , which according to S. Peter , are in the Epistles of S. Paul , as for example , how are to be interpreted that of 1. Cor. 3.11 . Gold , siluer , hay , stubble , the day of our Lord , fire ; and to be saued by the fire . That of 1. Cor. 15.29 . How to be baptized for the dead . That of Hebr. 6.4 . It is impossible for those that fall , to repent . If we adde the difficult places , which in the Euangelists are hard , as for example in S. Marke , who cites the Prophet Esay for Malachy . In S. Matthew , who cites Ieremy for Zachary . In S. Luke , who adds a generation of Cainam to the same , cyted by Moyses , and makes 40. Generations from Dauid to Christ , where S. Matthew makes but 28. In S. Iohn , who maks the day of Christs Passion , the day before the festiuall day ; the rest of the Euangelists , the day of the feast . If we add the difficult places of which many holy and learned men of ancient time doubted , & sent for explication , some to S. August . as Marcellinus , a Noble man , and Martyr , Volusianus gouernour of Rome , and Paulinus , Simplicianus , Euodius , and Honoratus , all Bishops . Some to S. Hierome , as Marcella , and Principia , Suna , and Fratella , Hebidia and Algasia noble and religious women ; as Vitalis , Dardanus , Euagrius , & Damasus holy and learned Bishops . And lastly , if we adde all those places , which all ancient and moderne Heretikes haue in so many articles of fayth abused and corrupted for the establishing of their new inuented heresies : If I say we adde all these to the former , it will by them appeare , that the priuate spirit in euery man can be neither a competent , nor yet a sufficient meanes to expound and interprete the true & certaine sense of Scripture , neither , in places difficult to be vnderstood , nor in points necessary to be belieued . And this is the first kind of reason , drawne from the nature of scripture , against the priuate spirits interpretation of it . SVBDIV. 2. By reasons drawne from the priuate spirit , which should expound Scripture . SEcondly , other reasons are drawne from the nature and condition of the priuate spirit , which , whether it be in a priuate person who wants lawfull ordination and authority , or in publike Doctour , Pastour , or Bishop who diuided by heresy or schisme doth not conforme his spirit to the comon spirit of Gods Church , and generall rule of Fayth , yet that it cannot be a competent Iudge of fayth , and decider of controuersies , is proued by these reasons . First , because this priuate spirit is excluded as vnable and vnfit to interprete the scripture , and that by scripture it selfe , for S. Peter hauing commended the propheticall word , or the wordes of Scripture made by the Prophets , as being a candle shining in a darke place , doth giue this Caueat , as principally to be vnderstood , that the sense of it , is not to be made by any priuate interpretation ; that is , though the scripture be a light , yet as it is a light not to Gentils , Iewes , or Infidels , who vnderstand it not ; so it is not a light to Heretikes , who by the priuate spirit make a priuate interpretatiō of it : & why ? Because by mans will Prophesy was not at any tyme brought , but the holy men of God spake inspired by the holy Ghost ; that is , as the holy men of God , the Apostles , inspired by the holy Ghost , spake and dictated the word of God , when it was made ; so the interpreters of the same word , ought not to bring in any exposition of the same word of God , vpon their owne will and sense , but vpon the inspiration of the same holy Ghost , when by them it is interpreted : so that we should receaue the sense of scripture from the same spirit , from which we receaued the text of Scripture . As therefore no priuate spirit but one and the same spirit of the Prophets , and Apostles of Christ made the scripture ; so no priuate spirit , but the common spirit of Pastours and Prelates of Christs Church , should determine and iudge of the sense of Scripture . Of which place , and others , see more in the first Chapter . Secondly , because as truth and faith is not priuate to one , nor singular in any , but common to all , and generally receaued by all the faithfull ( for so saith S. Augustine ; Thy truth , O Lord , is neither myne , nor this mans , or that mans , but all mens whom thou callest publickly to the Communion of it , terribly admonishing vs not to haue it priuate , least we be depriued of it ; for whosoeuer will challenge that as proper to himselfe which is giuen , as common to all , and will haue that only to himselfe which is for all men , that man is driuen from the common to his owne , that is , from truth to falshood : ) so also the spirit of truth is not priuate to any one , but common to all the faithfull ; for if the spirit of the teacher be not common with the spirit of all teachers , it is not a spirit as it ought to be , which is one , keeping an vnity of spirit in the bond of (a) peace , & making mē of one mind , in one spirit labouring together for the faith of the (b) ghospel ; but it is a spirit of dissentiō (c) which comes in his owne name (d) , speaketh lies of it selfe (e) , leadeth disciples after it selfe , and seeketh , as a thiefe , to kill and destroy (f) . And if the spirit of the hearer be not conformable to the teacher , then it is not a spirit of God , nor of truth , because he who is borne of God , heareth the voice of the spirit (g) : and to heare the voice of vs (h) saith S. Iohn , that is , of the Pastour , is a signe to discerne who knows God , and who hath the spirit of truth , not falshood . But if he , on the contrary , do follow a stranger (i) ; do heare the voice of strangers (k) ; & do harken to a Prophet who ariseth and saith , let vs follow strang Gods , whom thou knowest (l) not , that is , new Pastours vnknowne who they are , or whence they come ; it is a signe of a spirit which followes not God , nor is directed in truth . Therfore the spirit of God , is not a spirit priuate and singular by it selfe : but a spirit common and generall to all the faithfull , vniting the sheepheard with the flocke , and the flocke with the sheepheard , both in the fold of Iesus Christ , in vnity of one spirit , and faith . Thirdly , Because this priuate spirit is not only euill , but also most vncertaine and fallible : for it is vncertaine in whom it is , whether in Luther , Caluin , Seruetus , or Rotmā , and why not as well in Bellarmine , as in any of them ? It is vncertaine to him , who imagines he hath it , whether it be the spirit of God , of nature , or of Sathan ; and most vncertaine & altogeather vnknowne to any , but him who challengeth it . It is vncertaine whether that sense it suggests be the certaine meaning of the holy Ghost , or the inuention of ones owne braine . It is vncertaine whether those interpreters of scriptures which follow it , and others who follow them , as Caluin , Luther , Osiander , Beza , or others , do expound the scripture in the sense of the holy Ghost , or of their owne . It could not accord the Lutheran Deuines of Saxony in the Conference at Altemburge 1568. whether the scripture was to be receiued as interpreted by Luther only , as the Duks Deuines of Iene & Lipsia prescribed ; or as by Luther and Melācthon also , as the Electours Deuines of Wittemberge resolued . It could not agree Luther & Melancthon , with Zwinglius & Oecolampadius at Marspurge , 1529. about the sense of these words , Hoc est corpus meum , whether they are meant properly or figuratiuely . It could not combine in vnity at Wormes 1557. the twelue Catholicke Doctours , with the twelue Lutheran , about many points of controuersy ; nor the Lutheran Doctours among themselues , of whom seauen ( the maior part ) excluded fiue ( the lesser ) that is Amsdorpius , Gallus , and others the rigid Lutherans . It cannot pacify to this day the dissentions about the sense of scripture betweene the Lutherans , Swinglians , Caluinists , Vbiquitaries , Osiandrians , Swenk feldians , Trinitarians , Puritans , Familists , Anabaptists , and others in number infinite , and in contention vnplacable . So vncertaine it is in all , & so vncertaine it leaues all . Fourthly , Because it is not only false and vncertaine in expounding the scripture : but also it is opposit to the spirit and iudgement of the whole Church , of all generall Councels , and of all auncient Fathers , reiecting and condemning them , and preferring it selfe in euery preacher , or Parochian before them . It will in euery vnlearned Protestant , with Caluin , examine all the spirits of all men ▪ according to the rule of the word of God : it selfe , I say , will examine and iudge them . It will , with Luther , affirme , and stand to it also , that it will permit none to be iudges , but all to be obedient to it . It will , with Whitaker , resolue , that all iudgment of Fathers , Councels , and Church is only humane , and only its owne is diuine , of which contempt of Fathers and Councels , see the first Part , Chap. 5. Fifthly , Because it is not only false , fallible , & opposite to the spirit of Gods Church : but is the very author and supporter of all heresies , as Stapleton well notes , saying : Out of this priuate spirit , to which they stand stifly for the exposition of scripture , haue issued and flowed all the stincke of heresies and new opinions which haue infected the whole world . And indeed , as euery hereticke diuided himselfe from the Church , and forsooke the spirit of it ; so by his new spirit he inuented a new heresy of his owne , and sought to draw people after him . All which both concerning heresies & rebellions , shal in the third Part at large be demonstrated . Sixtly , Because all the partes and properties of an infallible Iudge are wanting in this spirit , as shall appeare in the next Chapter . And thus much against the priuat spirits authority of expounding scriptures , by reasons drawne from the obscurity , fecundity , and profundity of scripture , and from the falsity , fallibility , and vncertainty of this spirit . Out of which it doth follow , first ; that since the Protestants build their saluation only vpon faith , and their faith only vpon the scripture , and the scripture and the sense of it only vpon the spirit , which is so vncertaine , fallible , and doubtfull , therefore their whole faith , and state of saluation is very vncertaine , fallible , and doubtfull , as builded vpon a ground so vncertaine , fallible , and doubtfull . 2. It followes , that they who in shew rely so much vpon scripture , who extoll it so much , read it so diligently , & seeme to be so cunning in it , and to build so much on it ; do not indeed rely , & build vpon the scripture , but vpon their owne spirit or conceit , by which they set vpon the scripture what sense they please , and draw the sense to what doctrine they please , and make the doctrine to serue to what times and turns , to what ends and vses they please . 3. It followes , that the Catholikes , whom the Protestantes so much accuse of neglect of scripture , do more solidly & safely rely on it then the Protestants do , and do with more security and certainty ground their faith vpon it then they do : for the Catholikes receiue the scripture as the word of God , as much as they , & more parts of it then they ; they reuerence it as much as they , and haue kept it from corruption longer then they . They ground their faith and beliefe vpon it as strongly as they , & did the same before it was knowne to them , yea deliuered it to them , and to many mo besides them . For the true sense and right vnderstanding of it , they do not rely vpon euery mans priuate spirit or conceit as they do , but vpon the iudgement of the Church , infallibly assisted by the holy ghost ; vpon the testimony of the catholike and apostolicke rule of faith ; vpon the conformity of the auncient practise and obseruation of the Church ; vpon the generall consent of the holy and learned Fathers and doctors of auncient time ; vpon the infallible decrees of general and oecumenicall Councels ; all of impartiall and authenticall authority , which they do not . And by this , Catholiques are more secure of the true sense of scripture , then they ; haue their faith better grounded vpon the scripture , then they ; and haue their spirit better warranted by God , more secured that it is from God , and surer combined with the spirit of the auncient Catholicke and Apostolicke Church , with the spirit of the holy and learned Doctours and Saintes of God , with the spirit of the generall and receiued Councels of Gods Church ; none of which they haue . And by this we haue our beliefe grounded vpon a certaine , infallible , & authenticall sense of scripture , which they haue not . And thus much of this priuate spirit , that it cannot be a fit , and certaine Rule , or meanes truly , and infallibly to interprete the holy scripture . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS AVTHORITY To iudge Controuersies of Fayth , confuted by Reasons , drawne from the nature of a Iudge of Fayth . CHAP. VI. The properties of a Iudge of Fayth . SECT . I. THOVGH the Iudge of the sense of Scripture , and of controuersies of faith , be all one , and therfore that which hath beene spoken of the one , might also suffice for the other : yet because faith extends it selfe larger then the scripture , & because the true Iudge of faith , from the false , may be the more clearly discerned , & the functiōs of this priuate spirit may be also more plainly confuted ; therfore I adde in this Chaprer these reasons , drawne from the office of a Iudge of Controuersies , to shew the insufficiency of this spirit to be a iudge of thē . In which we may note , for this iudiciary power and authority . 1. What it is , and what properties , and conditions it requires . 2. In whome it is , and who are to exercise this authority . 3. How it is to be ordered , and what rules are to be followed in the exercise of it : which being distinctly and fully considered , the inability , and insufficiency of this spirit , to make a Iudge of faith , will more clearly appeare . First therfore , we may note , that as in a temporall Common-wealth ( where contentions arise , offences are committed , and tittles are questionable ) that besides the lawes established , there are necessary also Iudges to determine causes , to decide titles , and to punish offences : so also in the spirituall Common-wealth of the Church , where controuersies are of a higher nature , questions no fewer in number , and the offences more grieuous in quality , some personall Iudge , or iudges are no lesse , yea more necessary to discerne verity in all doubts , to establish vnity in all contentions , and to punish obstinacy in persons who offend . Some Iudge therfore is necessary , as well in spirituall causes , as in temporall ; as well for matters of doctrine , as of iustice ; and as well in pointes of faith , as of manners . This Iudge , because all faithfull belieuers are obliged to belieue , and obey his sentence as true and iust , though not in consequences , & appendixes of faith , yet in materiall and substantiall foundatitions of faith ; though not in schoole questions , & pulpit conceites which infringe not the solidity of faith , yet in maine articles and principall mysteries of faith , vpon which is cōposed a complet edifice of true religion ; though not in probations , and allegations for the proofe of pointes of faith , yet in the determinations , and conclusions of the points , or articles themselues ; though not in case , when is intended only to confirme the weake , to satisfy the curious , or to confound the proud , yet in case when is intended to condemne any doctrine as heresy vnder anathema , and to declare and define expresly , for the common and publicke good of the whole Church , any verity of doctrine , formerly by the practise of the Church receaued , or by the assent of the faithfull at the least , virtually belieued . Because , I say , all faithfull are obliged to belieue and obey this Iudge , and his sentence in pointes , and articles substantiall , defined , and concluded by sentence definitiue against heresy , for the good of the whole Church ; therfore it is necessary that this Iudge ( vpon whome depends the verity of beliefe , and the saluation , or damnation of so many who by a true , or false faith are saued , or damned ) haue these properties or conditions in him , & in his authority . 1. That he be visible , and manifest in person , so that he may know , and be knowne , heare and be heard , speake and be spoken vnto , and therby haue a publicke Court , giue publick audience , examine publicke causes , & pronounce publicke sentence betweene parties who contend , and in contentions which are debated . 2. That he haue power , and authority , warrant , and commission , to giue Iudgment , pronounce sentence , and to compell parties to obedience , and performance . 3. That he haue warrant of infallibility in this his sentence , that he cannot erre , or determine errour , deceaue , or be deceaued in this his verdit , corrupt , or be corrupted by partiality in his iudgment . All which , are as it were essentially necessary for this iudge ; for if he be not publicke & knowne in person , others cannot haue accesse to him , nor he vnderstand the causes of others ; if he be not certaine and infallible in his sentence , he cannot determine matters of certainty , nor can others be secured by him ; if he want authority , and power to oblige , and compell , he cannot end the controuersy , and establish peace , and vnity in the Church , which is the end of his iudgment . Further , because this Iudge is to haue this infallible authority , and that all are obliged to rely vpon him , and his iudgment , that he may the more securly proceed in his iudgment , and others more confidently rely vpon it ; therfore he must haue some Rule likwise infallible , and certaine , by which he may be directed in his iudgment ; and some solid foundation , vpon which he may build his definitiue sentence . This rule , or foundation , because it is to be a rule & ground of iudgment , and that for persons in number so infinit , and for causes in substance so important , therfore it can require no lesse then these and such like properties , for the solidity of it , and the security of iudgment by it . In respect of it selfe . 1. That it be so certaine & infallible that it can neither deceaue , or be deceaued . 2. That it be so continued , and not interrupted , that it cannot decay , or perish . 3. That it be so firme , and immutable , that it cannot be changed , or corrupted . In respect of the persons whom it is to direct . 4. That it be so knowne and visible , that it may be discerned by all sortes who haue need of it . 5. So markable , & notable that it may be a signe distinctiue , to distinguish true , from false beleeuers . 6. So necessary and important that without it , no certainty can be had . 7. So vniuersal & general , that it may satisfy all sortes of people , Iewes , or Infidels , Heretikes , or Catholikes , yong , or old , vnlearned , or learned . In respect of the matter or mysteries which are to be determined . 8. That it be so fundamentall , that it be contained among the chief articles of the Creed , or plainly expressed in scripture . 9. So sufficient , that it be able to explicate & determine all articles and doubtes in religion . 10. So complet , that it containe virtually , & be able to resolue plainly all questions , and conclusions of Faith which may at any time vpon any occasion arise . All which are necessary for such a rule , and foundation , vpon which so important a matter , as faith and religion , is grounded . And this is the first thing to be obserued for the properties , and conditions both of the Iudge , and his rule of faith . The whole body of the Church cannot be this Iudge . SECT . II. SECONDLY , We may note , that this infallible authority , to iudge of controuersies of faith , is giuen , neither to the whole body , and congregation of the Church of God , as the rigid Lutherans with Brentius do hould ▪ nor to the secular Princes and Parlamentes , as all the Lutherans at first , and the State-Protestants of England do yet defend ; nor to the lay-people , and priuate persons , as Caluin , and the Caluinists do maintaine ; nor yet is it residing in the wordes , and text or scripture , as the ordinary preachers pretend : but only is giuen to the Pastours , and Prelates of the Church of Christ , who are lawfully , by authority from Apostolicall succession , ordained , and Catholickly continue , without diuision of heresy or schisme , in the same ; and among them , principally to the chiefe head , and Pastour , the successor of Peter , and Bishop of Rome . All which , concerning euery one , shall be briefly proued . First therefore , although the whole body of the Church collected , haue the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost that it cannot erre , or be deceaued in faith ; yet hath it not the same assistance , that it may , & ought to be iudge & determiner of faith . For as in a naturall body the soule doth informe and giue life to the whole body , and euery member of it ; but doth not discourse , and giue vse of reason to the whole , or euery part , but only to the head : so the spirit of God assistes the whole Church with the priuiledge of freedome from errour in faith , but doth not likewise giue to it the priuiledg● of authority to teach , and iudge of faith , and direct others in the same ; for which cause God hath giuen a measure of donation , diuisions of graces , and ministrations , and made some , not al , Apostles , Doctours , & Prophets , that some may rule , & others be ruled ; some teach , and others be taught ; some be superiours to iudge , and direct , others be inferiours to be iudged and directed ; and so an order , and subordination , a peace , and vnity , may be obserued and kept in the whole body among the members of Christs Church . Whereof see more in the next fourth Section . Secular Princes cannot be this Iudge . SECT . III. THIRDLY , That this infallible authority is not in secular Princes , or their Assemblies , and Parlaments , either as particuler members of the Church , against Melancthon , or as Princes , and Superiours among the rest , against Brentius , so , that they can , and may lawfully , and infallibly iudge of Controuersies , make ecclesiasticall lawes , giue authority to preach , and prescribe a forme of doctrine , a manner of seruice , and an order of Sacraments and sacrifice ; though it be largely by many proued , against the supremacy of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall , and requires a treatise more large , yet in briefe it shall by these reasons be proued . First , because Kinges and Princes are in the Church of God , and spirituall affaires , as sheep , to be ruled and ordered ; not as sheepheardes , to rule and gouerne : they are (a) Lambes to be fed by Peter ; (b) Sheep of the fold of Christ ; Members of the Church of God , and seruants of the family of Christ . Thus did the ancient and holy Fathers freely tell , and admonish them , and the Christian and good Emperours themselues acknowledged it . S. Gregory Nazianzen (a) told Valentinian , That the law of Christ did subiect them ( Emperours ) to his power , and Tribunall , and that they were holy sheep of his holy fold . S. Ambrose (b) told Theodosius the Great , that he was a sonne of the Church , and that a good Emperour is within , not aboue the Church . Theodoret (c) sayes of Constantine the Great , that as a louing sonne , he did propose busines to the Bishops and Priests , as Fathers . Constantine himselfe cōfesses , that God gaue Priests power to iudge of Emperours , witnesse (d) Ruffinus : that they were bishops within the Church , he without it , witnes (e) Eusebius . Valentinian the elder confesses , that he , as a laye man , might not interpose himselfe in Church affaires , but the Bishops and Priestes had care of such affaires , witnes (f) Sozom. And that himselfe was to submit himselfe to them , witnes (g) Paulus Diaconus . And Theodosius the Great obeyed S. Ambrose (h) his excommunication , departed out of the Chancell at his command , and cōfessed , that thereby he had learned to know what difference there was betweene an Emperour , and a Bishop , witnes (i) Theodoret , and (k) Nicephorus . Secondly , because the offices of the Bishops and Emperours are diuers , and distinct , the one of bodyes and goods , the other of soules , and fayth ; the one of life , and death for offences against the King , and common-wealth ; the other of sinnes , and sacraments belonging to Gods lawes , & mans conscience ; the one is temporall of the kingdome and common-wealth , the other is spirituall of the Church , & flocke of Christ ; which the hereticall Emperours forgetting , were stoutly and zealously admonished , and reprehended by the holy Bishops vnder them , for the same . As for example Cōstantius the Arian , 1. by Hosius (a) of Corduba , willing him not to medle with Ecclesiasticall affaires , nor to commaund them , but to learne of them ; because to him God had committed the Empire , but to them the Church . 2. By (b) Leontius of Tripolis , because being ruler of military and politicke affaires , he should not rule in thinges that belong only to Bishops . 3. By (c) S. Hilary of Arles , wishing him to writ to Iudges of Prouincies , that they should not presume , or vsurpe to intermedle with the causes of Clergy men . 4. By (d) S. Athanasius of Alexandria , that he , and such who will be Presidents in ecclesiasticall iudgments , who will make the Tribunals of the Court the seales of deciding ecclesiasticall causes , & themselues Princes and Authours of Church affaires , are the abomination of desolation , yea euen Antichrist himselfe . Valentinian the yonger seduced by his wife , was told by (e) S. Ambrose of Milane , That he had no Imperiall right in thinges that are diuine ; for the Court doth belong to the Emperour , but the Church to the Priest . And being called by the Emperour to reason with Auxentius the Arian , he answered : That if a conference was to be made of fayth , it was to be made by the Priestes , as it was vnder Constantine , who prescribed no lawes , but gaue free iudgement to Priests . That it was neuer heard , that in a cause of fayth Lay men did iudge of Bishops . That if we looke into Scripture or ancient tymes , Bishops vsed to iudge of Christian Emperours , not Emperours of Bishops . Thus S. Ambrose imitating S. Athanasius , who sayd : When was it euer heard , that the iudgement of the Church did receaue authority from the Emperour ? Many synods and iudgements haue beene , & yet did neither any Bishops persuade any Emperour any such thing , nor any Prince shew himselfe curious in any Ecclesiasticall affaires . Valens the Arian , was asked by Eulogius the Priest in Edessa , Hath the Emperour the dignity of Priesthood ? we haue a Pastour , whome we must obey . Anastasius the Eutichian , was told by Gelasius the Pope , That though he did rule ouer mē in earthly things yet he did subiect his necke to the Prelates in diuine thinges . Thou knowest that thou oughtest to be ruled , nor to rule in order of religion ; thou knowest that thou art to depend of this iudgement , not they to be brought to thy will. S. Mauritius was admonished by S. Gregory the great , That Priests are as Gods among men , & therefore ought to be honoured of all Kinges . And Michael was let vnderstand the same by the Nicolas 1. Leo the Image-breaker was told by S. Iohn (*) Damascene , That the Church ought to be ruled , not by lawes of Kinges , but by the written , and not written , institutions of Ancestours . And to conclude , S. Iohn Chrysostome sayd freely to his owne Deacon : If any Duke , Consull , or the Emperour himselfe come vnworthily , represse , repell him , thou hast greater power then he . Where we may note , that these Emperous were thus by these Fathers reprehended , for assuming Ecclesiasticall iudgment , either as Heretiks , or as Tyrants ; nor yet for doing it alone without the Bishops , but only and simply as Emperours , who hauing only temporall power , ouer the common-wealth , did assume Ecclesiastical ouer the Church . Which also is further proued by the confession , and practise of the best of the Christian Emperours ; for Constantine the Great acknowledged , that (a) the Bishops had power to iudge him , and when he did iudge of the cause of Caecilianus Bishop of Carthage , he did it so , that he asked pardon of the Bishops for (b) it . Valentinian the elder would haue them to iudge in a cause of fayth and ecclesiasticall order , who are not vnlik either in office or title , that is , Priests of (c) Priests . Marcians commissioners referred themselues to the Councell of Calcedon to be taught in fayth , and himselfe wills that Priests determine what is to be obserued in (d) Religiō . And though he himselfe went to the Councell , yet it was not to determine , but confirme the fayth , not prescribing lawes ( sayth S. Ambrose ) but leauing the Priests free iudgement , and making the Priests themselues Iudges , as he did in the Councell of Aquileia . Theodosius the second sent to the Councell of Ephesus , but not so much as to talke of matters of Fayth , holding it vnlawfull for those who are not of Episcopall order , to medle in Ecclesiasticall affaires . The same did Iustinian in his Constitutions , and Basil in the eight generall Councell . Thirdly , because power not only to preach , but much more to iudge of doctrine of fayth ( for the authority to iudge , is (ç) the strong meat of perfect men , whose senses are exercised to the discerning of good and euill ) was committed to Bishops ( as of greater difficulty then the office or preaching giuen to Priests ) and is a spirituall grace , or guift , giuen by imposition of handes , to spirituall men , according to that of the Apostle : Neglect (a) not the grace that is in thee , which is giuen thee by prophecy , with imposition of the handes , of Priesthood . Therefore as power to minister Sacraments , is proper to Priests : so also to iudge of Controuersies , is proper to Bishops , lawfully ordained by authority , successiuely descending from the Apostles . For which cause , to Priests and Prelates , not to Kings and Princes , it is sayd : Thou (b) shalt seeke the law out of the mouth of the Priest . My (*) wordes shall not depart out of thy mouth , and out of the mouth of thy seed , and out of the mouth of thy seedes seed for euer . I (c) will giue you mouth , and wisedome , which all your aduersaryes shall not be able to resist . It (d) is not you that speak but the spirit of my Father which speaketh in you . He (e) that heareth you , heareth me . He (f) that knoweth God , heareth vs. He (g) that is not of God , heareth vs not , sayth one of the spirituall Pastours ; for which guift , Caiphas prophesy was a guift of his functiō , or priesthood , according to (h) S. Augustine , though his ill life was the cause of ignorāce of what he prophesyed . Lastly , because many inconueniences , and absurdities would follow , if this authority were annexed to the kingly Scepter , not to the priestly function ; for it would follow , that Fayth could not continue one and the same , neither in all persons , nor in all tymes , nor in all Countryes , because Princes , in all tymes and places , are of disposition various ; in iudgement different ; in faction opposite ; and in subordination neither depending one of another , nor alwayes respecting Religion , or Religious persons , more then may besteed them for their temporall and priuate endes , and vses . Wherefore as Ieroboam of old , and Queene Elizabeth of late , did relinquish the old , and introduce a new Religion , for reasons more politicke then diuine , rather to establish their doubtfull titles , then religiously to serue God ; so would Kinges by vertue of this their authority ( if it were in them ) either in policy , or vpon affection , be still altering Religions , and setting vp new , most for their owne endes and dispositions ; by which we should haue as many alterations of Religion , as of Kinges , and as many Churches as are Kingdomes , and as great opposition in Faith , as is in States , and Common-wealthes . All which may appeare by an example in Englād , where while the authority in iudging in matters of faith was in the Prelats , religion continued 900. yeares the same , from Ethelbert till Henry the eight ; but after that power of iudging was assumed to the scepter by King Henry the 8. the supremacy by one & the same King , was in three yeares thrice changed , from the Pope to the Clergy , from the Clergy to the Archbishop , from the Archbishop to the King , and afterwards as many religions were a new broght in as Kings were a new crowned , to wit , one by King Henry , another by King Edward , a third by Queen Mary , a fourth by Queen Elizabeth ; & a fifth of Puritans would haue been vnder the same Queen , if power had not preuented it ; and what may be , yet lies in the power of the King and Parlament . It would also follow that a man should be obliged alwayes to follow the religion of the King , to change with the King , and so should not be obliged to be certaine of any , or to dy , or suffer for any religion , but should belieue and preach , obserue and practice , what the King prescribes , and the Parlament ordaines : all which are against vnity and certainty of al faith and religiō . Lastly , it would follow that for 300. years after Christ , whē the Emperours were pagan and not Christian , either pagans must be iudges and deciders of the true sense of scripture , and of all controuersies of faith , or that there was , for that time , no iudge of them at al : also when Princes become hereticks , as Constantius and Valens did , or Apostata's as Iulian did , that either true Christians should be obliged to obey , and follow Pagans & Apostata's , as iudges and vmpiers of their faith , or else , that they , by falling into heresy or apostacy , should loose their regall power and authority , and subiects should be freed from their duty and obedience to them . None of which our Protestants will admit , as being indeed too too absurd . The Lay-people cannet be this Iudge . SECT IIII. FOVRTHLY , that this infallible authority is not in the lay people , and priuate persons of the Church , is proued . 1. Because they want knowledge , and vnderstanding to discusse , and penetrate , either the articles , which are belieued , or the meanes , for which they are to be belieued , as being , for the most part , men simple , and vnlearned ; for which cause they were neuer admitted to any Councels , as Arbitrators , or Iudges of faith : but alwaies directed by their Pastours in their obedience to faith . 2. Because they haue no warrant , or commission giuen them for this end , either expressed in any Scripture , or approued by any Tradition , or practise of the Church , or mentioned by any testimony of Fathers , or Councels ; therfore are not to assume or exercise it , till they proue it . 3. Because of al sortes they are the most fallible , vncertaine , and vnconstant in their opinions , and practises , and therfore are left alwayes to be ruled , & ordered , as the people are in the temporall common-wealth , & not to rule and gouerne as Magistrates , and Iudges . 4. Because it would follow that all should be Iudges , & Pastours to determine , none should be subiects to obey , or sheepe to be fed ; that the Church gouernment should be Democraticall , of people which of all is the worst ; that euery mā should haue a religion of his owne , without any vnion with any , or subordination to any ; that the people should preach , and minister Sacraments , as well as Priests or Prelates ; should excommunicate , censure , and punish one another , as well as Bishops , & make decrees for faith and manners , as wel as Councels . In respect of all which inconueniences , and absurdities ( which are so many testimonies against this authority of the people ) our Sauiour did speake to the people in parables , (a) and without parables he did not speake to them : but to the Apostles and Pastours (b) he gaue knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdome of heauen . To the people he spake of things easy , and publicke , as their sins , and vices , vertues , & good life ; but to the Apostles ( and that , separated from the people , ) of his death , resurrection , the holy Ghost , the day of iudgment , and such like mysteries . With the people he did conuerse before his death , not after his resurrection ; he (a) manifested not himselfe to all the people , but to the Apostles as Pastours , and witnesses preordained of God ; he appeared after his resurrectiō (b) did eate , and drinke with them , and commaunded them only , not the vulgar sort , (c) to preach to the people . To the people it is said , Obey (d) your Prelats & be subiect to them : but to the Pastours , take (e) heed to the whole flocke , wherin the holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops , to rule the Church of God. To the people it is said , suffer (f) the cockle to grow : but to the Pastours , (g) take away the euil one , from among your selues . To the people it is said , do (h) that which they ( the Pastours ) say : but to the Pastours , He (i) who heareth you , heareth me ; and he (k) that knoweth God heareth vs. By hea●ing of them is knowne which is the spirit of truth , which of errour . Of the people it is said , How shall they belieue him whome they haue not heard , how shall they heare without a preacher ? But of the Pastours , (l) . How shall they preach , vnlesse they be sent ? All which conuince that our Sauiour intended to make the people , not Pastours , but sheep ; not rulers , but subiects ; not iudges to commaund , but seruants to obey , in matters of faith , and religion . The Scripture cannot be this Iudge . SECT . V. FIFTLY , That the scripture cannot be this iudge to determyne and end al controuersies is proued . 1. Because this scripture , in respect of vs , requires a iudge it selfe to determine , and assure vs which is true Canon , true originall text , true translation , true sense , & the rest as before ; therefore to vs it cannot be a iudge . 2. Because all , or the greatest difficulties ; all , or the maynest questions ; and all , o● the hoatest contentiōs which haue passed either among Catholike Doctours , or betweene Catholicks and Hereticks , are about the scripture , and the sense of it , none of which scripture it selfe could euer yet end , and decide without some other iudge and vmpier , plainly to pronounce sentence in the cause ; and immediatly vnder punishment to oblige the parties to belieue , and obey the sentence . 3. Because the scripture is mute , dumbe , & vnable to speake , heare or pronounce sentence , and is apt , not only to be lost , alteted , and corrupted , as de facto it hath beene ; but also to be drawne , wrested , and interpreted to contrary senses and opinions , by any sort of interpreters , in any cause , and question ; as the lamentable practise of so many hundred of heresies , & hereticks in all ages doth witnesse . 4. Because the scripture in it selfe is neither cleare , and euident , nor doth euidently and expresly containe , and declare all the senses of it selfe , all the mysteries of beliefe , all the questions of controuersies , all doubtes in diuinity , many things being both now by Protestants , and Catholicks belieued , and hauing beene by all faithfull in all ages practised , which neither for practise were groūded vpō only scripture , nor for the doctrine of thē are expressed in any scripture . 5. Because many haue beene conuerted to faith without any reading , or knowledge of scripture , many controuersies haue beene decided without any sentence of scripture ; many faithfull haue liued in the world , and beene directed in their faith before any writing of scripture . As for example ; all in the old Law for 3000. yeares before Moyses , all in the new law for a good time after the sending of the holy Ghost , & dispersion of the Apostles ; and many nations after Christ for 200. years , who ( witnesse Irenaeus ) neuer did see , nor heare of the bible ; and many thousands of saints and soules who did neuer see , read , heare , or vnderstand any Scripture at all , and yet did liue holily in earth , and do raigne gloriously in heauen . 6. In the scripture are two things , the letter , and the sense ; as the body & the soule . The letter , according to S. Augustine , doth kill , that is , the externall litterall sense of the words sometimes doth kill , & cause errour : but the spirit , that is , the true sense , which the holy Ghost intended , doth quicken , & auaileth to saluation . But that neither the letter , nor the spirit , can be a competēt iudge of controuersies , is proued . 7. Not the letter , because the letter , or the words in the bare literall sense are occasion of errour , and heresy , for so they were to the Iewes , who in reading of Moyses & the Law , had the veile set ouer their eyes , and vnderstood not Christ contained and signified in the Ceremonies of the law . And so it hath beene to all Heretickes , who forsaking the sense intended by the holy Ghost , & proposed by the Church , and following the letter expounded by their owne spirit , haue falsly vnderstood the scripture , & grosly fallen into errours . Thus the letter deceaued Sabellius , who expounding that of S. Iohn , I and the father am one , of vnity of persons , not of substance ; falsly defended , in the deity to be not three , but only one person , which had three names , offices , or properties of the father , the sonne , & the holy Ghost , creating , redeeming , and sanctifying mankind , & , as the Patripassiās defended , the Father to haue suffered on the Crosse as one and the same person with the sonne . Thus the letter deceaued the Arrians , who expounding that of S. Iohn , The father is greater then I , of Christ absolutly and completely as whole Christ , not as man according to his humanity ; did thereupon deny Christ to be God , equall to the Father . Thus it deceaued the Macedonians , who expounding that of S. Paul , The spirit searcheth all things , euen the profoundites of God , concluded , not as they ought , that the spirit pierceth & cōprehendeth all things as God ; but thus , that he who searches doubts , who doubts is ignorant , who is ignorant , is not God ; and so the holy Ghost , who searches all , is not God. Thus it deceaued the Manichees , who held the old Testamēt to be cōtrary to the new , because , for instance , the old said , that (a) God created all things ; That God ceased frō labour (b) the seuenth day ; That (c) Man was created according to the Image of God. And the new said the contrary , that (d) the Word created all things ; That (e) God worketh vntill now ; And that you (f) are of your father the diuell . Not conceauing , according to the spirit and true sense , that God created all things by the word , as by an Idaea ; that God rested from his worke of creation , and yet worketh by conseruation ; that man was created to the Image of God by nature , and of the diuell by malice . Thus the Pelagians denying originall sinne to haue descended from Adam to vs , literally interpreted that of Ezechiel , ( The (g) sonne shall not beare the iniquity of the father , ) not only of sonnes who are not partakers , but also of sonnes who are partakers of the iniquity of the father , as all are of Adams sinne , in whome (h) all sinned , and who receaued , as head , the promise of keeping , or losing paradise by precept of for bearing , or eating the apple for himselfe , and his posterity after him . Thus it deceaued others , who applying literally that of S. Iohn ( The flesh profiteth nothing ) some , in the Apostles time to the resurrection of the flesh , others of late to the reall presence in the B. Sacrament ; the one therupon denyed the resurrection of all bodies ; the other the reall presence of Christs body ; both vpon one ground , not distinguishing the spirituall from the carnall manner of one and the same body . By which they might as well inferre , that the flesh of Christ by his incarnation and passion profiteth no more , then ( according to them ) it doth by his resurrection and manducation . By which proofe of authority and examples it is apparent that the external letter of scripture cannot be iudge of controuersies . That the internall sense of Scripture cannot be iudge , is likwise proued , because this true sense intended by the holy Ghost is often obscure , hard , and vncertaine ; as is certaine , and before proued . This obscurity breeds controuersies , as experience dayly teaches , and that these controuersies cannot be ended & iudged by scripture-sense , is proued . 1. Because scripture-sense is the thing in question , & contention , therfore is the thing to be iudged , and decided ; not the iudge who is to giue iudgment , and resolue the parties contending in iudgmēt . As for example , a question is about the sense of those words of the Gospel , this is my body , & of those of the Creed , He descended into hell ; Catholikes vnderstand them as the words import , of the reall presence , and of the locall descension , both , of Christs body : Protestants expound them of a figuratiue presence by remembrāce of him in the sacrament ; and of an infernall suffering of hel-paines in his soule vpon the Crosse . Now of these senses which is true , which false , the sense of the words cannot iudge betweene Catholicks and Protestants , but some other iudge is necessary to confirme the one , and confound the other , & so to end the controuersy . 2. Because many places of scripture are so hard and obscure , as the true sense of them cannot be truly discerned , but by Church practise and tradition , as for example , whether those words of S. Mathew , Teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the father , and of the sonne , and of the holy Ghost , do proue a necessity of the vocall pronuntiation of these wordes , for the forme of baptisme , as all Protestants with vs do grant ; or require no more but a mentall intention , it sufficing only to baptize in the name of Iesus , as Act. 8.26 . doth insinuate . Whether those of S. Iohn , Except a man be borne againe of water , and the holy Ghost , he cannot enter into the kingdome of God , inferre a necessity of water for the matter of baptisme , as the Lutherans with vs grant , and the words import ; or that the water and the holy Ghost be all one , as Caluin expounds . Also why the Protestants should not inferre as well a precept and necessity of a sacrament of washing of feet out of those words of our Sauiour , And you (a) ought to wash one anothers feet , after the example of Christ , who did , and commanded it ; as they do , out of those of S. Mathew , Eat yee , & drinke yee , inferre a necessity of receauing vnder both kinds , because our Sauiour did , & commanded the like . Now these , and such like , require a Iudge to iudge of the sense , and reason of them , & cannot themselues iudge , and decide themselues to vs. By which is euident that neither the letter , nor the sense of scripture can be a competent iudge of all controuersies of faith , and scripture . Lastly , the same is proued by the analogy of a temporal Iudge in causes ciuill , with an Ecclesiasticall Iudge in causes spirituall ; for as Controuersies aryse in ciuill causes , & the common-wealth : so do they arise also in matters spirituall , and the Church . As therfore there are customes , lawes , & Iudges to decide causes ciuill : so there is Tradition , Scripture , and a Iudge to decide causes spirituall : and as customes and lawes are a rule , not a Iudge , to decide the one ; so also are tradition , & Scripture , a rule , not a Iudge to decide the other . As well therefore is requisite , besides Scripture , some other liuing and speaking Iudge in matters of fayth & religion , to iudge and end the Controuersies among Christiās , as is necessary , besids Law , some other personal iudge in affaires of the Common-wealth , to debate and decide contentions among Neighbours . The necessity of both which chiefly appeares , when either the parties are contentious and not willing to yield , or that the law is obscure , and wantes explication , or seemes contradictory , and requires reconciliation , or is penned in tearms generall , and stands need of some restriction in causes particuler . All which sith they fall out as well in Scripture , as in common , or ciuill lawes , some iudge or iudges are as well necessary to expound Scripture , as they are to interprete Lawes , and thereby to end Controuersies . And thus is sufficiently proued , that neither Scripture , and the word of God , nor Princes , and Kinges , Gouernours of the Common-wealth , nor the Lay & common people among the Faythfull , nor yet the whole body and congregation of the Church of God , can be a fit iudge to pronounce sentence , and determine matters of fayth and religion . Bishops and Prelats of the true Church , are this Iudge . SECT . VI. IT remaines to proue , that this iudiciary power , and authority to heare , and examine , to decide , and determine as a Iudge authentical and infallible , in matters of fayth , belongs only to Pastours , and Prelates of the Church , and that they hauing receaued lawfull ordination by power successiuely descending from the Apostles ( by which they enter as sheepheardes , not theeues ) and still remayning in vnity , without heresy or schisme ( by which they continue true Pastours , not Wolues ) that they , I say , thus ordained and vnited , are the only and true Iudges of fayth & Religion . This position as much importing for the certainty of fayth in all persons , and mainly confuting the authority of the priuate spirit in euery priuate person , is fully to be proued . 1. By the authority of the old Testament , & the practise of the Priests in it . 2. By authority of the new Testament , and the practise of Christ , and his Apostles in it . 3. By authority of the Church euer after Christ , and the practise of all Bishops , & Prelates in it . First , therefore out of the old Testament , we haue an expresse law made by God himselfe for this iudiciary authority of Priests , in these wordes : If thou perceaue that the iudgment with thee be hard and doubtfull betweene blood and blood , cause and cause , leprosy and not leprosy , and thou see that the wordes of the Iudges , within thy gates , do vary ; aryse , and go vp to the place , which our Lord thy God shall choose , & thou shalt come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stocke , and to the Iudge that shall be at that tyme , and thou shalt aske of them ▪ who shall shew thee the truth of the iudgment : and thou shalt doe whatsoeuer they that are Presidents of the place , which our Lord shall choose , shall say and teach thee , according to his law ; and thou shalt follow their sentence , neither shalt thou decline to the right hand , nor to the left hand , but he that shal be proud , refusing to obey the Commandment of the Priest , which at that tyme ministreth to our Lord thy God ▪ and the decree of the Iudge , that man shall dye . In which wordes , 1. The Priests haue authority , and commission to iudge of all causes . 2. The people are willed to go to them , for iudgment in doubtfull causes . 3. Vnder paine of death they are commaūded to stand too , & obey their iudgment , without appeale to any higher Court of Prince or other . In which we may note , 1. The institution , and beginning of this authority of the Priests in the old Law. 2. The progresse , and continuance of it . 3. The end and cessation of it . 1. The institution of it (a) was for all cases of the Law , of Commandment , of Ceremonies , of iustifications , that is , of the law morall , of the ten Commandments , ceremoniall of seruing God ; and iudicial , of gouerning the people , though in this place be mentioned only two causes , that is , of blood , and leprosy . These causes were determined in two Courts , or Councells , the one greater at Hierusalem called Synedrion , consisting of the high Priest as chiefe , and 70. with him as assistantes , in which , greater causes were iudged , and appeales from the lower Councell were admitted , and this was by God himselfe (b) instituted . The other lesser in euery Citty , consisting of 23. persons , who had the hearing , and determining of smaller causes , and was by Moyses , (c) at the aduice of Iethro his Father in law , instituted . By these two Councells were all causes iudged , of these the Priests were Presidents and Iudges , and of the greater the high Priest , for the tyme , was supreme Iudge , whose sentēce in all causes , and vnder paine of death all were obliged to obey . 2. The continuance of this law and tribunall-seat doth appeare . 1. By the facts of some of the Kinges , chiefly of (d) Iosaphat King of Iuda , which repaired this Councel being decayed , and made Amarias the high Priest , President for those things which belonged to God , and Zabadias , for the office of the Kinges . 2. By the wordes of the Prophets , especially of Malachy , who sends the people to the Priests , (e) to require the law from his mouth , because he is the Angell of the Lord of Hoasts . Of Aggaeus , who bids them (f) aske the Priests ●e Law. And of the Wiseman , who (g) wils his sonne to seeke no further , because the words of wisemen are as prickes , and as nailes deeply stricken in , which by the councel of Maisters , are giuē of one Pastour . Therfore this sentence is the last iudgmēt , which admits no appeale . 3. The end & cessation of this law , and Tribunall of Moyses , doth appeare by the beginning of a new Tribunal of Christ . For , as with the death of Christ , the obligation of the law , the sacrifices of the Law , and the prophesies vnder the law ceased , and the verity of them being in his passion fullfilled : so also the iudiciary power both of the Priest , and of the Law diminished , as the greater power of the new law-maker Christ , increased . And the assistance of the holy Ghost , by degrees failed them , and their Councell , as by degrees the power of Christ was more plainely manifested , & the grace of the holy Ghost more abundantly bestowed : of which out of Scripture we haue this proofe , and experiment ; whereas the high Priest , with the Priests , Scribes , and Pha●isies gathered three Councells in the life of Christ , all about the person of Christ , 1. In his infancy , at the cōming of the Wise-men , to consult where he was borne , whē Herod would haue killed him , 2. Before his passion , after the raysing of Lazarus , to aduise about his apprehension , when Caiphas vpon malice aduised his death , and as Priest prophesyed of the Iewes saluation by his (a) death , 3. At his passion , when by false witnes they condemned him as guilty of death , and thereupon procured his (b) death : In the first , the holy Ghost fully assisted them , and their Councell , that their determination was both true and iust : In the second , the holy Ghost assisted in part the high Priest , in that his verdict of the Iewes saluation by one , which verdict proceeded from the guift of prophesy annexed to his Priestly function ; and in part forsooke him , in that is was iniust , for that he did vpon malice condemne him : In the third , the holy Ghost quite forsooke them , both in verity of the sentence , as falsely accusing Christ of blasphemies ; and in the iustice of the same , as wrongfully condemning him to be worthy of death . By which is declared how farre the Priests iudiciary power before Christ did extend it selfe , how long it did endure , in what manner by degrees it did cease and end ; & out of all is conuinced , that neither Prince , people , or priuate person , but the Priest in that tyme had power to decide , and iudge all Controuersies of the law , & of fayth . Secondly , this authority of Priests and Prelates is proued out of the new Testament , and that two wayes . 1. By the commission , & authority which our Sauiour gaue to the Apostles , and by their practise of it . 2. By the same Commission giuen to the same Apostles , not only for themselues and their owne tyme , but also for their successours , and all tymes , & ages . That our Sauiour gaue this iudiciary power to his Apostles , and to them only , is proued , 1. By the authority , and commission he gaue to S. Peter , as the head . 2. By the same which he gaue to the rest , as the principall mēbers and directours of the Church vnder this head . To S. Peter as head , he first promised it , thē he prayed to confirme him in it . 1. He promised it , in that he promised to make him the foundation of the Church , by giuing him the title of a Rocke , saying : Vpon this Rocke I will build my Church ; for what a maister is in a house , what a gouernour is in a Citty , what a King is in a kingdome , and what a head is in a body , the same is a foundatiō in a building , & Peter in the Church ; therefore to Peter was heere promised , to be the head , the foundation , and the Gouernour of his Church . 2. In that he promised to make him the Gouernour of the Church in a representatiue manner , giuing him keyes of it : To thee I will giue the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen . For as the deliuering vp the keyes of the Citty to any , is a signe of giuing vp the charge and gouernement of it to him : so the promise of giuing to Peter the keyes of the kingdome of heauen , was a promise of giuing power & authority to gouerne , as a Iudge , the Kingdome of heauen , that is , his Church . 3. In that he gaue him power to bind and loose , that is , to retaine , or remit , by way of absoluing , or not absoluing ; to commaund and punish , by way of dispensation , censure , sentence , or iudgement , not only persons whomesoeuer , but also causes whatsoeuer , whether of crimes , and offences against lawes , or in doctrine and opinion against fayth . And so the promise was made , 1. To the person of S. Peter . 2. Of authority to be Iudge and Gouernour . 3. In all causes of doctrine , or offēces whatsoeuer . 4. Christ prayed to his Father for confirmation of this authority vpon S. Peter : I prayed for thee , that thy fayth faile not , and thou once conuerted , confirme thy Brethren , that is , that he might be firme in his fayth , and thereby with his power confirme , and settle others in the same . Out of which Lucius , Felix , Marcus , Leo , Agatho , & Paschalis Popes with S. Bernard after them , cited by Bellarmine , doe gather the infallibility of S. Peter , and the Popes power in iudgment of fayth . Lastly Christ inuested S. Peter in this authority and iurisdiction , when he gaue him commission and charge to feed his sheep : Feed my Sheep , feed my Lambes ; in which he gaue authority to Peter singularly , as to one whō he calls Simon the sonne of Iohanna , and from whome in particuler he drawes before hand a triple confession of his singular loue to him , aboue the rest . He giues also him authority to feed , that is , to exercise all pastorall charge and function , which requires , 1. That he feed with spirituall food , all his sheep within the fold of his holy Church , according to Ezechiel , Are not the flocks fed of the Pastours ? And Psalm . 22.1 . Our Lord doth gouerne me ( in greeke , feed me ) nothing shal be wāting to me : he hath placed me there in a place of pasture . 2. That he cure the sheep that are sore , gather those who are dispersed , reduce them that wander , and defend those who are assaulted by the wolues , according to that of Ezechiel : And my sheep were dispersed because there was no Pastour , and they came to be deuoured of the beastes of the field , and were dispersed . My flockes haue wandered in all mountaines , and in euery high hill . That which was lost I will seeke , that which was cast away , I will bring againe , and that which was broken , I will bind vp , and that which was weake , I will strengthen ; and that which was fat and stronge , I will feed them in iudgment . 3. That he rule , gouerne , discerne , iudge , and chastise , according to that of Scripture : Thou (a) shalt feed ( that is gouerne ) my people Israel , and be Captaine ouer Israel . Thou (b) shalt rule them in an iron rod. Behould (c) I iudge betweene beast and beast , of Rams , and of Bucke goates : Betweene (d) the fat beast , and the leane . Out of which is apparent , 1. That our Sauiour gaue to S. Peter , in these wordes , feed my sheep , a pastorall charge ouer al his sheep , that is , all Christians who are the sheep of Christ . 2. That this pastorall charge consists in collecting , curing , directing , defending and iudging these sheep of Christ . 3. That Peter , by this charge , had power to preach , minister Sacraments , correct offenders , and iudge of all doctrine , as chiefe head , and Gouernour in the Church of Christ . And so it is conuinced , that this iudiciary authority was giuen to S. Peter , as head of the rest . That the same was giuen also to the rest of the Apostles , is proued , because as Christ did communicate to his Apostles power , and authority which was proper to himselfe , to forgiue sinnes : VVhose (e) sinnes you forgiue in earth , shal be forgiuen in heauen ; and to offer Sacrifice , (f) Do this : So also to the same did he communicate these priuiledges proper to himselfe , that as he was Maister of all , One (g) is your Maister Christ : so also he made them Maisters , not (h) only of Infants , but also (i) of Nations , that they should (k) teach all Nations . As he was light of men ; so (l) they should be the light of the world . As he gaue (m) testimony to the truth ; so (n) they should giue testimony , and be witnesses of him to the end of the earth . That (o) as the Father did sanctify him ; so (p) he prayed to his Father to sanctify them . As (q) he was sent by his Father into the world ; so he sent them . As by a voice from heauen it was sayd of him , (r) heare him ; so by his owne mouth he sayd of them , (s) he that heareth you , heareth me . The Apostles therefore were appointed for Maisters , specially sanctifyed , made the light of the world , ordained witnesses of his truth , & sent with authority , and commission , as himselfe was , for that end that they should be heard , and obeyed as himselfe was : and the same power they receaued from him , not only themselues challenged and practised after him , and with him ; but also their Successours after them , and with them . For as Christ was giuen (t) a light of the Nations ; so they , sayth S. Luke ▪ were (u) also the light of the nations . As (w) the spirit of God was on him to euangelize to the poore ; so God chose them , sayth S. Luke , that (x) the Gentils by their mouth , should heare the word of the Ghospell , and belieue . As (y) he did reconcile the world to himselfe ; so he , sayth S. Paul , placed (z) in them the word of reconciliation . As he came an Embassadour from his Father , to (a) be a messenger of iudgment to the world ; so , sayth S. Paul , we (b) are Legates for Christ. As our Sauiour sayd of himselfe , He (c) that is God , doth heare the wordes of God , therefore you heare not , because you are not of God ; so doth S. Iohn say of them ▪ He (d) that knoweth God heareth vs , and he that is not of God , heareth vs not . Therefore as Christ thought it no robbery to be equal to his Father in diuinity ; so they thought it no iniury to him to be in some sort , participant with him , in his power , and authority . And that Christ gaue this authority to the Apostles , not only for themselues , and their owne time ; but also for their successors , and for all ages , so that it is to reside and remaine in the Pastours , and prelates of holy Church their successors continually till the end of the world , is euident : for if he haue this authority as necessary for the peace and gouernement of his Church , and if the Church stand as great need of it in all ages , as in that time of the Apostles , as it is certaine it doth ; then without doubt it was as well giuen to the Pastours of the future tymes of the Church , as to them of the present : for which end , Christ ( sayth S. Paul ) gaue (e) some Apostles , some Prophets , some Euangelists , some Pastours and Doctours , and for what end ? For (f) the consummation or perfection of Saints , that is , of all faythfull , for the worke of the ministery , to teach his truth , for the edification and propagation of his body , to conserue and increase his Church , for (g) the vnity of fayth vntill all concurre in one ; least (h) men be wauering and vncertaine in faith like little ones ; least they be carryed with euery wind of doctrine ; least they be circumuented by craftines in errour . All which dangers as they remaine in all tymes , so the remedy prepared against them must remaine for all tymes . Whereupon S. Peter did not only himselfe exercise this authority , but at his departure gaue the same to the Pastours of Pontus , Galatia , and Bythinia , to whome he writ his Epistles , willing them to (i) feed the flocke of God , which is among them . S. Paul did not only practise it himselfe , but also left it to the Pastors of Ephesus (k) to rule the Church of God. To Titus , to (l) ordaine Priests through all Citties in Creet , as he had disposed . To Timothy , to (m) commend to faithfull men , what he had heard of him , and willed the conuerted Iewes , to (n) obey their Gouernours ▪ and be subiect to them because they watch as being to giue an account of their soules . Whereupon , not of the Apostles only , but of all Pastours , and only of Pastours , it is sayd : (o) My spirit which is in thee , and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed , frō this present for euer . What is this word , my (p) spirit which is in thee ; but ( to compare the prophesy and the performance ) the Paraclete , the spirit of truth , which the Father will giue to you ? What are , the wordes in thy mouth , but the wordes and vnderstanding (q) which thou ( Father ) gauest to me , I gaue to them , and they receaued of me ? What is , thy seed , and seeds seed , but those who are to (r) belieue by their word in me ? What is , from this tyme for euer , but that , I (s) will be with you euen to the consummation of the world ? And so doth the prediction of the Prophet concurre with the performance of our Sauiour . To all Pastours , and only of Pastours it is sayd : Sonnes (t) are borne to thee for thy fathers , and thou shalt make them Princes ouer all the earth , that is , according to S. Augustine , for Apostles , thou shalt haue Prelates . To al Pastours and only to Pastours it is sayd : He (u) that heares you , heares me . And , He (x) that knowes God , heares vs , and he that is not of God , heares vs not . That is ( sayth S. Cyprian ) all (y) Gouernours who by subordination succeed the Apostles . Because , sayth S. Augustin , In (z) the chaire of vnity he hath placed the doctrine of verity . Of al , and to all Pastours it is sayd : How (a) shall they preach except they be sent ? No (b) man assumes to himself honour , but he that is called of God , as Aaron . To all , and only of Pastours it is sayd : If (c) he heare not the Church , let him be to thee as the Heathen , and Publican , that is , sayth (d) Chrysostome , and Theophilact , if he heare not the Pastours of the Church . And if he be worthy to be esteemed so , who despises them , that admonish him of his fault ; much more worthy is he to be deemed so , who despises him who instructs him in fayth . To all , and only Pastours it is sayd : That (e) the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church . In so much , that all the promises of Church-stability , and perpetuity in fayth , cōsists chiefly in this infallible authority of the Pastours , who are to instruct in fayth , direct in fayth , and to iudge of fayth , and what promises are made to the Church , are made chiefly to the Pastours , as the principall partes of it , and by thē to the rest as inferiour . To them therefore is giuen the (f) word of reconciliation , the (g) dispensation of the mysteries , the (h) function of Embassages , the (i) testimony of truth to all Nations . They are the Fathers who beget spirituall children by the preaching of the word , who nourish them with the food of the Sacraments , who rule them by good lawes and discipline , and who defend them with their spirituall power & authority . They only haue the (k) Keyes of the house of Dauid , which they shall open and none shut . The (l) keyes of the Kingdome of heauen , against which hell-gates shall not preuaile , and the (m) kingly Priesthood . All , because in , and by their priestly function and authority , Christ doth forgiue sinnes , doth reconcile to him the world , doth make lawes , doth exercise his power , and establish his kingdome of heauen , and doth (n) raigne in the house of Iacob for euer . And thus is the iudiciary authority of the Church in the Pastours , and Prelates of it , lawfully ordained , and peaceably vnited , proued by the testimony of holy Scripture . The same is further proued by the practise of the Church in all tymes , and ages ; for when any Controuersy did arise , any new opinion did start vp , or any practise was doubtful , and questioned ; the decision and iudgment was referred , neither to the whole body of all belieuers , nor to the Princes , Kinges , and Emperours , the chiefe Protectours of the Church , not to the Lay-people the greatest number in the Church , not to the Scripture & written word only , which is a rule , not properly a Iudge in the Church : but to the chiefe Pastours , and Prelates , the Directours & Gouernours of the Church , who collected togeather in some Councell , either prouinciall ( which sufficed in cases where the cause was either not important , or other could not be collected ) or generall ( which was gathered when the cause was great , the aduersaries potent , and the assembling conuenient ) had the hearing , examining , and iudging of the cause referred to them , and did censure the persons , and put a finall determination to the cause , & question . Thus we read , that the question about the obseruation of Legall Ceremonies , was determined in the Councell of the Apostles at Hierusalem . The Controuersy about the obseruation of Easter on the 14. day , as the Iewes vsed , or the Sunday after , as is now by Christians vsed , was by diuers Councels decided , as at Rome vnder Pope Victor , at Hierusalem vnder Narcissus , in France vnder Irenaeus , in Pontus vnder Palma , at Corinth vnder Bachillus , and lastly at Nice vnder Pope Syluester . Thus was the Nouatians and their sect , denying pennance and absolution to them who failed in persecution , condemned by the Prelates , and Bishops of Italy at Rome , of France at Arles , and of Africke at Carthage . Thus was Sabellius , and his heresy , denying the Trinity of persons , condemned by the Prelates of Aegypt at Alexandria . The Donatists , and their schisme , denying the validity of Baptisme ministred by Heretikes , cōdemned at Rome , Arles , and Carthage , and other places by the Bishops of the same Countryes . Paulus Samosetanus , and his errour , affirming Christ to be pure man , was condemned by the Bishops of Asia , in two Synodes at Antioch . Thus were the Manicheans condemned at Ancyra , the Archontickes at Neocaesaria ; Eustachius at Gangra in Armenia ; Priscillianus at Toledo in Spaine ; Pelagius in Palestina , Melitum , Carthage , & Constantinople . And Macedonius , Apollinaris , Photinus , Sabellius , & Eunomius at Rome ; Berengarius at Vercells , and Rome ; Luther , and his fellowes at Ments , Treuers , and Colen in Germany , and Macline , Cambray , and other places in the low-Countryes . All which , and many more were censured , and iudged by the Bishops called in Synodes Prouinciall . In like manner by the Prelates collected in generall Councells , were censured and iudged the causes of greater heresies , and contentions : As that of Arius , in the first Coūcell of Nice , and the diuinity of Christ defended . That of Macedonius , in the second generall at Constantinople , and the deity of the Holy Ghost confirmed . That of Nestorius in the third generall at Ephesus , and the vnity of one diuine person in Christ decreed . That of Eutiches , in the fourth generall Councell of Chalcedon , and the verity of two natures in Christ concluded . That of Peter and Seuerus of Antioch , Petrus of Apamea , Cyrus of Edessa , Anthymius & Acatius of Constātinople , in the fifth generall at Constantinople , and their persons , with Origens errours , condemned . That of Cyrus of Alexandria , Sergius , Pyrrhus , and Paulus of Constantinople , and their Monothelite heresy of one will in Christ , in the sixth generall at Constantinople condemned , and the two wills in Christ determined . That of Leo , and Copronymus Emperours , and the Image-breakers with them , in the seauenth at Nice , censured , and the worship of Images defended . That of Photius , and the deniers of the procession of the holy Ghost from the Sonne , in the eight generall at Constantinople , reiected , and Ignatius the Patriarch confirmed . All which were in the Greeke Church . In the latin and West Church Bishops also proceeded , and iudged in the generall Councels , as in the ninth and tenth generall at Lateran against the Sarazens , and Anti-popes , vnder Calixtus II. and Innocent II. In the eleuenth and twelfth also of Lateran against the Waldenses , and Ioachim the Abbot , vnder Alexander the III. and Innocent III. In the thirtenth & fourtenth of Lyons , against Fredericke the Emperour , and the errour of the Greeks vnder Innocent IV. and Gregory the X. In the fifteenth at Vienna , against the Begards , and others , vnder Clement the V. In the sixteenth at Florence , against the Greeks , vnder Eugenius the IV. In the seauenteenth at Lateran , vnder Leo the X. against Schismatikes . And lastly in the last at Trent vnder Paul III. Iulius the III. and Pius the IV. against the Lutherans , & all Heretikes of late . In all which , and others , examination was made , and iudgment giuen , not by Princes , Lay-people , or the whole body of the Cleargy , but only by Bishops , and Prelates , the chiefe Pastours of the Church , who only , and not the former , were , as appeares by authority of Scripture , and the continued practise of the Church , the true , authenticall , and infallible Iudges of controuersies of Fayth , and Religion . The priuate spirit cannot be this Iudge . SECT . VII . IT remaynes to proue , that this infallible and authenticall authority to iudge of controuersies of Fayth , neither doth , nor can reside in euery particuler faythfull person , nor that the priuate spirit of euery one ( which is heer intended ) can be a competent Iudge of all controuersies of Religion . This is conuinced by diuers proofes drawne from diuers heades . The first proofe is drawne from the former reasons , which disproue this authority to reside , either in Princes , or in the lay-people , or the whole community of all faythfull belieuers ; for all the reasons which proue against them , and their spirit , proue much more against euery priuate person , and this spirit in particuler . The second proofe , is drawne from the former reasons , which proue this authority to be communicated only to the Prelates and chiefe Pastours of the Church ; for if the spirit of God , for this end , be giuen only to them , as it was to Moyses , to iudge the people , then it was not for the same end giuen to all and euery one of the common people , and euery ordinary faythfull person among them . The third proofe , is drawne from the essentiall partes of an authenticall , and infallible Iudge , because in this spirit are to be found neither ability to know persons , nor authority to iudge causes , nor infallibility to pronounce a certaine sentence , and iudgment . First therefore , this spirit cannot know , and examine the state and disposition , the cause , and question of the person who is to be iudged , neither can the person who is to be iudged , know that this spirit remaynes in him , who is to iudge , or that authority by it is giuen to iudge . For this spirit , say they who chalenge it , is knowne , that it is the spirit of God , only to them who haue it ; how then shall it be knowne to others , who are to be iudged by it ? How shall the people know the spirit of the Pastour that they may be directed by it ; or the Pastour know the spirit of the people , that he may direct thē ? How shall any conuersation in discipline of good life , any communication in doctrine of fayth , any subordination in obedience to lawes , be obserued among these person , vncertaine one of anothers spirit , and authority by it ? How shall the sentence of absolution vpon the faythfull , or of condēnation vpon the faythlesse be iustly denounced ? How shall the doctrine of truth be preached , or the doctrine of falshood be confuted , and the people obliged to belieue the one , and to forsake the other ? How shall iustice be ordered , obedience obserued , authority maintained , lawes executed , and penalties inflicted , where neither the inferiour can know the spirit of the superiour , vpon which spirit his authority dependes ; nor yet the superiour can any way force , or compell the spirit of the inferiour , who yet will chalenge an equality of preheminence , and priuiledge of the spirit with him . Secondly , this spirit cannot challenge to it selfe any such power , or authority , or shew any authenticall warrant from God , that it is the spirit of God , either in Scripture , Tradition , or practise of the Church , all which , a● before , do reiect and condemne it . It cannot exercise any function which belonges to this authority , as to censure , or absolue , to oblige or vnity , to punish or reward any fault cōmitted , or person committing it . It cannot with equality of tryall , heare or examine the cause , nor denounce , and pronounce any sentence which can oblige . It cannot admonish , threaten , terrify , and enioyne any punishment by the rodde of iustice . It cannot compell , correct , and punish any delinquen● by way of exteriour iustice , or enforce the one party to yield , subscribe , and submit to the sentence of iustice . It cannot bridle , in the hand of the one , the fury of iniustice , or deliuer to the handes of the other , the right of iustice . It cannot conuince the one of his errour against truth , nor secure the other of his possession of truth . It cannot compell the one to cease from wronge , or giue redresse to the other in his wrong . What power hath the spirit of one man , to threaten , to command , to correct , or punish the spirit of another ? What authority can one spirit alleadge , which another cannot as well challenge ? What prerogatiue of spirit can the Pastour assume , of which the spirit of the people may not as well presume ? Vpon what priuiledge can any superiour stand , vpon which , and the same , any inferiour may not , or will not as well insist ? The inferiour can as cōfidently assure himselfe , as certainly auouch , and as resolutly resolue himselfe , that he hath receaued the (a) spirit of the Sonne of God dwelling in him . That he hath the (b) spirit of his sonne abiding in his heart , by which he cryeth Abbae Father . That (c) God hath giuen him also the pledge of the spirit ; The (d) spirit of adoption ; VVhich (e) doth giue testimony of his spirit . That (f) his spirit doth search all thinges , yea the profundities of God. That (g) his spirit doth try all thinges , yea prophesyes ; Doth (h) try all spirits if they be of God ; And that he is (i) a spirituall man , doth iudge of all thinges , and himselfe is to be iudged of no man , because he hath the sense of Christ , and knoweth the sense of our Lord , that may instruct him . Where is then the authority of the Pastour ouer a flocke endewed with this spirit , or the power of the superiour to correct a people full of this spirit ? How shall the one compell to obey , and the other haue the liberty of the spirit not to obey ? What order or subordination , what discipline & gouernement can be established among such spirits , or men ruled and directed by such spirits ? Thirdly , this priuate spirit cannot giue any certainty , or infallibility of the verity of his iudgment ; for it cannot assure and secure any , that it is a spirit of God not Sathan , of light not darknesse , of truth not falshood , of a true not a false Prophet . It cannot assure & secure any , that his iudgment , for example , of predestination , iustification , certainty of saluation of only fayth , is not a presumption , and illusion , and rather hereticall , then Catholike doctrine . It cannot assure and secure others either that the spirit is true , or that the iudgement of it , is vpright , or that the doctrine of it is true ; all sectes , and heresies , whether Caluinist or Lutheran , rigid or milder , whether Protestant or Puritan , whether Brownist or Familist , whether Anabaptist or Arian , whether Swenkfeldian or Libertine , challeng it for the certainty of their doctrine as true , are taught , and directed by it as true ; and yet some , or all of them must needes be false , as being contrary euery one to another , euery one condemning another , and all condemned by the authority of Gods Church , and by the spirit of God , instructing and assisting it . By all which it is apparent that the priuate spirit wanting visibility to be knowne , authority to iudge , and infallibility to secure , cannot be an authenticall iudge of controuersies of Fayth . Fourthly , the fourth reason against this priuate spirits infallible authority to iudge of fayth , is drawne from the properties of a rule , & foundation of fayth , before assigned ; all which are wanting in it . For first , it wants the promise of any certainty , and infallibility ; it hath no promise , or warrāt in Scripture , that it is the Pillar (a) and ground of truth ▪ the (b) house , the temple , the kingdome of Christ ; that hell gates shal not preuaile against it ; that (c) he who heareth it heareth Christ ; who (d) contemneth it contemneth Christ ; and (e) who obeys it not is as the Heathen and Publican ; that (f) it shall remayne with euery man , shall teach euery man all truth , and instruct euery man in all which Christ shall speake to him . All which yet are promised to the holy Church , and the spirit of God in it . Secondly , It wants continuance , and duration ; for as it is a priuate spirit in euery one , and can continue no longer , then the person in whome it is , and with whome it begins and ends , liues , and dyes ; so it hath no promise of Scripture to endure from age to age ▪ from generation to generation , from Saboth to Saboth , as long as the Sunne and Moone shall endure , till the end of the world , to the seed , and seeds seed , for all generations . All which are yet promised to holy Church , and the spirit of God in it . Thirdly , it wants immutability , and freedome from alteration or change , for as we see it changes in euery place , tyme , and person , yea as often as the Moone , breeding , as S. Hilary sayd of the Arians , a monthly & yearly fayth : and as one of them confesses , What to day they hould you know , but what to morrow , neither you , nor they can know , in what head of religion do they agree , who oppugne the Bishop of Rome : if you examine all from the head to the foot , you shall almost find nothing affirmed by one , which another will not auerre to be wicked ; the Deuines do dayly differ from themselues , coyning a monthly fayth . Thus it changes in all doctrines , and in opinions of Scripture , some affirming this part to be scripture , which others deny ; some inuenting one sense , and others a contrary ; and it so alters from sect to sect ; from heresy , to heresy ; from Catholike , to Lutheran ; from this , to Caluinisme ; from that , to Anabaptisme ; from thence , to Arianisme ; and so on to Iudaisme , Turcisme , and Atheisme . And as this alteration de facto workes in Protestants ; so also it hath no promise of constancy , that it is (a) a Rocke ; a (b) pillar , a foundation ; as (c) the Sunne before God ; as sure as (d) the day , and the night ; that it hath (e) an euerlasting couenant which shall stand for euer , and for an eternall glory , and not be giuen ouer . All which is yet promised to the Church , and the spirit of God in it . Fourthly , it wants Visibility , and publike manifestation to vs , not only that it is the spirit of God , of which before , but much more in whom it remaines : for as that which is in one cannot manifest it selfe to another ; so others cannot manifestly know that it is in any one . Aske , for example , the Lutherans who follow Luther , and his spirit ; the Caluinists who follow Caluin , and his spirit ; the Anabaptistes , who follow Rotman , and his spirit ; the A●ians , who follow Seruetus , and his spirit ; the Libertines who follow Quintinus , and his spirit ; or any Precisian who follow a precise preacher , and his spirit , how they know that Luther doth enioy this spirit , more then Caluin ; or Caluin more then Rotman ; or Rotman more then Seruetus ; or Seruetus more then Quintinus ; or any one of them , more then the Pope , and Catholike Church vnder him ? They can giue no reason more for one , then for another , shew no cause , why they follow one spirit , more then another , or why they should be persuaded , confirmed , & directed to the fayth of any one more then another . This spirit therefore hath not the conspicuity and visibility of being (a) as a tabernacle in the Sunne ; (b) the Sunne in my light ; (c) a candle vpon a candlesticke ; or (d) seauen candlestickes in the Temple ; a (e) citty vpon a hill ; (f) a mountaine in the top of mountaines eleuated aboue the little hills , that it may be seene , and knowne of all the world . All which yet are agreable to the Catholike Church , and the spirit of God in it . Fifthly , this spirit wants combination , or connexion , by which it may combine all faithfull in one bond of Vnity , and Concord ; and so distinguish a true Church from a false ; a right belieuing Catholike , from a deceitfull heretike , and a right way to heauen , from an erroneous path to perdition . It is priuate , and particuler in euery man , diuerse and contrary in most men . It did suggest of old one beliefe , for example , in Sabellius , another in Marcion , another in Nestorius , another in Apollinaris and Eutiches ; and it hath suggested of late , one in Luther , another in Zuinglius , a third in Caluin , a fourth in Munzer , a fifth in Seruetus , and aboue 220. in this last age , in so many new Maisters , and founders of new sects , (a) all whose hartes are diuided , and (b) like the Aegyptians , run togeather against the Aegyptians ; and (c) by diuision make the kingdome of Christ desolate . And yet all of them call this , their spirit of the Lord , all build their beliefe vpon it , all are directed by it in their contrary doctrine and beliefe . Aske any one or all of them how they are instructed , who they follow , by what they are directed ; all answere by this spirit , all appeale to this priuate spirit , and yet all want that spirit , which (d) keepeth vnity of the spirit in the body of peace ; (e) which should continue them in one minde ; (f) in one agreement and iudgement ; (g) in one hart and soule , in one way and path ; (h) and make them all one , as Christ was one in his Father . Which spirit notwithstanding resides , and dwels in the Catholike Church . Sixthly , this spirit wants Vniuersality , as vnable to resolue all doubts and questions which arise , either about Scripture , in the obscurity , profundity , and multiplicity of senses , or in the seeming contradictions , figuratiue locutions , and seuerall interpretations of the wordes , the various Texts , and reading , the many dissonance● of yeares in numbring , the different translation of words from the originall , or which arise about the mysteries belieued ; as the vnity of the God-head ; the Trinity of persons in the Blessed Trinity ; the person , the natures , the wills , the body , the soule of Christ ; the nature of grace , free-will , sinne , iustification , sacraments , Church , prayer to Saints , for the dead , Purgatory , and thousands such like , which this spirit could neuer decide , and end , either in tymes ancient , or of late , but with contention it begunne all these differences , in contention it proceeded in them , and neuer ceased till by contention it consumed it selfe , and ended them . It cannot sufficiently conuince any one , either Pagan or Infidell , either Turke or Iew , either Heretike or obstinate Person , that they are in errour , and haue not the spirit of God , as well as true Christians . It cannot conuert , reduce , or confirme any to the verity of true fayth , who is either ignorant of Fayth , or staggering in his fayth , or obstinate against faith . It can giue no probable reasons of persuasion , propose no credible testimonies of inducement , deliuer no conuincing arguments of certainty of fayth , and doctrine , and in effect can shew no grounds sufficient in prudence to persuade any iudicious man to accept , as credible , the religion of Christiās , more then of Iewes , Turkes , or Pagans , therefore it cannot extend it selfe to all Nations , (a) enlarge the place of his Tents , stretch out the skins of his Tabernacles ; (b) increase the sea with knowledge ; (c) sucke the milke of Gentils , and be nursed with the Tette of Kings ; (d) it cannot conuert the multitude of Iles ; (e) bring in the riches of the Gentills ; (f) preach pennance , and remission of sinnes ; (g) from Hierusalem to the vttermost of the earth ; (h) from North to South , from Sabaoth to Sabaoth ; (i) from the ends of the earth . All which yet as they were promised to holy Church so are they performed in it , and by the spirit of God in it . Seauenthly , this spirit wanteth all warrant , and Commission from God , either expressed in holy Scripture , or mentioned in the Creed of the Apostles , or deliuered by any Tradition , or defined by any Councell , or contained in any rule of Fayth , or deduced out of any principle of Religion , or confirmed by any practise of antiquity , that all men must rely on it , be ruled by it , and be obedient to it for the certainty of their Fayth and Religion : we find no preheminence , or prerogatiue attributed to it , that it is either (a) the Kingdome , (b) the Citty , (c) the Inheritance , (d) the House , (e) the Temple , (f) the Spouse , or (g) the body of Christ ; which yet the Church of God , by his spirit in it , hath . We read of no authority it hath , either (h) to bind or loose sinnes , (i) or to offer sacrifice , or to minister Sacraments , or to instruct in all Truth ; (k) to teach all Nations , or to punish offenders with the Rodde of correction , of censure , of excommunication , & giuing vp to Sathan , which yet the Church of God by his spirit hath . We haue no expresse warrant , or commaund to do (l) what it shall say to vs , do ; to heare and obey it , as Christ himselfe , and that (m) vnder paine of despising Christ ; (n) of being an Ethnicke , and Publican , (o) and of damnation . All which yet we haue of the Church of Christ , and of the spirit of God , dwelling in it , and directing it . All which properties and conditions since they ought to be in a rule & iudge of faith , as is before shewed , and are all , and euery one wanting in this Protestant priuate spirit , as is heere manifest , it remaines euident , that for these reasons it cannot be a sufficient , or competent Iudge of all controuersies of Fayth and Religion . THE PROTESTANT PRIVATE SPIRITS AVTHORITY , To iudge of Controuersies of Fayth ; confuted by Reasons drawne from the nature , and certainty of Fayth . CHAP. VII . The properties of Fayth , with the priuate Spirits manner of proceeding . SECT . I. THIS priuate spirits authority to expound Scripture , and to resolue questions of Fayth , we haue confuted by reasons drawne from the nature of an infallible , both Interpreter of Scripture , and Iudge of fayth . It remaines , that we cōfute the same by reasons drawne frō the nature , and infallible certainty of Fayth , of which this spirit is assigned by the Protestāts to be a principall , if not a sole , and whole meanes , or instrument to cause it . For which we may note , that the Protestants doe 1. ground their saluation vpon only fayth , which say they , doth only iustify . 2. They ground this their fayth vpon only Scripture , which according to thē , containes al things necessary to be belieued . 3. They ground this their Scripture , and the sense of it , only vpon the priuate spirit , by which alone , excluding all authority of Tradition , Church-Councells , or Fathers , they expound the Scripture ; so that the priuate spirit is to them the principall , or sole ground of their sense of Scripture , their Scripture-sense , the principal or sole ground of their fayth , & this their fayth the principal or sole ground of their saluation . What certainty therefore they haue of Scripture , Fayth , or Saluation , dependes vpon the certainty they haue of this their spirit , which if it faile , and proue not to be true , and of God , but deceitfull , and of Sathan ; then failes with it , the truth of their sense of Scripture , the truth of their Fayth , and Religion , and the truth of their hope , or certainty of saluation . Whereupon it followes , 1. That they can haue no more certainty of their fayth , and saluation , then they haue of this their spirit , which is the ground of their fayth and saluation . 2. That what conditions , or properties are required to certainty of Fayth , the same are required in this spirit , which is to them the prime , mayne , & in effect the sole meanes , or grounds of faith . 3. That if we demonstrate , that the properties , and conditions which are necessary to fayth , are wanting in this priuate spirit , then we conuince that this priuate spirit cannot be , either a sufficient ground , wheron to build faith , or a competent Iudge , wherby to determine controuersies of Fayth . Which being supposed , let vs examine these properties of faith , what , and how many they be , and applying them to the priuat spirit , shew that they are all euery one wanting in it . 1. Therfore this diuine , and supernaturall faith , as it is necessary to saluation , ( for according to S. Paul , Without (a) faith , it is impossible to please God. And according to S. Augustine , It is certaine that none can come to true happinesse except he please God ; and hat none can please God , but by faith , for faith is the foundation of all good things , faith is the beginning of mans saluation , without faith none can come to the fellowship of the children of God , because without it , neither in this world doth any man obtaine the grace of iustification , nether in the next shal he possesse eternall life : ) so also it must necessarily haue these properties , or conditions , that is , it must be one , certaine , entire , and Catholike faith , manifested by diuine reuelation , di●ulged by Apostolicall mission , and preaching , confirmed by miraculous operations , and made credible by conuincing testimonies of credibility . All which , as they are peculiar to true faith , either connexed to it , or concurring with it ; so are they all wanting to this priuate spirit , and haue no affinity or similitude with it ; as in particuler shal be shewed . The priuate spirit cannot be a meane of vnity in Fayth . SECT . II. THEREFORE Fayth is one , witnes S. Paul , One Lord , one Baptisme , one Fayth : witnes S. Leo , Except it be one , it is not Fayth . Witnes Irenaeus , All belieuing in one and like manner all points ; all teaching & deliuering in one and the same manner all thinges ; and all hauing one soule , and one hart , which though it differ in language , yet is the same in tradition . One , I say , in all persons , both in the materiall obiect , because the same articles of Fayth are belieued by all ; and also in the formall obiect , because for the same motiue , and in the same manner , they are belieued by all , in all places , & tymes . Which one fayth , as one soule in many partes of the body , doth make one Church in all the partes of the world . But that this priuate spirit neither is , nor can be , one in all , who claime and challeng it , as neither inclining , and mouing them all to belieue , either one , and the same thing , or in one , and the same manner , or for one , and the same motiue : nor yet combining them in any vnity , either of one , and the same Church , or of one , and the same discipline , or gouernment , or of one , and the same scripture , and sense of it ; is apparent and proued . First , Because this spirit is priuate , proper , and peculiar in euery one , without subordination to any , without connexion with any , or without dependance vpon any . It is singular , and seuerall , in euery one , hauing a kind of operation , which is ; for the manner , singular ; for the motiue , different ; and for the effect , opposit in euery one . It wanteth one , and the same , either authority of God for warrant , or reuelation from God for motiue , or proposition by Church for surety ; or direction of one visible head for gouernment , as a linke and combination of all the spirits in one vnity , either of Sacraments , seruice , or ceremonies ; or of faith , discipline , and exposition of scripture . Wherupon it withdraweth al men from the high way of vnity , diuerts them into by-pathes of diuision , conducts them into the downfall of schisme , and heresy ; and so precipitates them headlong into a gulfe of infidelity , and perdition . 2. Because , as experience teaches vs , it hath hatched all the viperous sects , schismes , and heresies which this last age in such aboundance brought forth into the world . It vpon the first breathing of the new Ghospell , deuided the followers of it into Lutherans , Sacramentarians , & Anabaptists , and subdeuided the Lutherans againe into the Zealous , the Ciuill , and the disorderly Lutherans ; and subdeuided yet againe the zealous into 14. the ciuill into 20. and the disorderly into 7. subfactions and petty heresies . It subdeuided the Anabaptists into 13. seuerall factions : and the Sacramentaries into so many new opinions , in seuerall Countries , inuented by so many seuerall new maisters , as that within the space of an 100. years & fewer , some , as Gualter , reckon vp 117. others , as Rescius 170. & others , as Hedio a Protestāt , within 30. yeares after Luther 130. all inuented , and nourished by this spirit . And for multiplicity of scripture senses , it deuised , as one 50. yeares ago collected , no fewer then 80. and as another since hath obserued , no fewer then 200. seuerall expositions , all out of foure wordes , Hoc est corpus meum . Which dissention , and diuision was euen in Caluins time so memorable , and markable , that he himselfe confesses , that this age hath brought forth horrible monstrous sects , so that many staggering , and no● knowing which to follow , haue cast away all care of any religion at all . By which is apparent , that this Scripture neither doth , nor can beget any vnity , or concord in fayth and religion , and so cannot be a fit instrument to beget , and conserue fayth . That it cannot be a meanes of certainty of Fayth . SECT . III. SECONDLY , Fayth must be certaine , and infallible to vs , more certaine , sayth S. Chrysostome , are we of things we see not , then of thinges we see . Yea so certaine , as that it admits no deliberate and voluntary doubt , not only actuall , but not so much as possible . For as Fayth is an inward assent of the mind which we giue to that which God ( who is the prime verity , and can neither deceaue , nor be deceaued ) hath reuealed to vs by meanes of the preaching , and teaching of the true Church : so our assent must be as certaine as is the verity of God , vpon which it dependes ; that is , so certaine , that it admit no more deliberate doubt , incertainty , or fallibility , then doth the word of God , vpon which it depends . Which certainty of fayth , because Luther , Caluin , and Zuinglius extend to euery mans particuler saluation , they consequently affirme , that euery man must be as certaine of his saluation , as he is certaine there is a God , & that he can no more loose his saluation , then Christ can loose it . But that no such certainty can be in this priuate spirit , I proue ( besides that which is in the former Chapter shewed ) by these reasons . First , because no certaine and infallible rule , or ground can be giuen , certainly and infallibly to know that this spirit , in any man , is a spirit of truth , not of errour ; of light , not of darknes ; of God , not of Sathan , or not humane ; therfore there is no reason why any should build vpon it as certaine . Secondly , because that they who admit a certainty of it , admit it only in the persons who haue it , not in others who follow them who haue it ; wherupon all who follow the spirit , and doctrine of any other whosoeuer ( as the cōmon , both people , and preachers do ) follow that which to them is fallible and vncertaine , and so build vpon a ground fallible and vncertaine . Thirdly , because experience conuinces that this spirit hath deceaued , & doth daily deceaue many ; for whatsoeuer either sense of Scripture , or doctrine of faith , or certainty of saluation the spirit of one man doth certainly assure him as true , the spirit of another man doth as certainly assure him that the same is false : as for example , the spirit of Zuinglius , Oecolampadius ▪ Caluin , and other Sacramentaries assures them , that the sense of Hoc est corpus meum , is figuratiue , that the body of Christ is not really , and corporally present in the Sacrament , and that they in this faith are infallibly sure of their saluation : but the spirit of Luther assures him , that the sense of the words is literall , that Christs substance is really and corporally present with the substance of bread , and that the Sacramentaries are heretiks , and damned who hould the contrary . The like doth the spirit of the Anabaptists , Libertines , and others assure them of other such places against both Lutherans , and Caluinists . And the spirit of the Arians assures them of the like , against all the former . And all this is wrought by this spirit , all conceauing a certainty in it , & yet all opposit and condemning one another by it . What certainty therfore can there be in any of these spirits , what infallibility more in Luther then in Caluin , what in Caluin more then in Rotman , what in Rotman more then in Seruetus , or what in any one of them more then in any other Sectary ? What can any one claime , or challenge for the certainty of his spirit , which the other cannot as infallibly claime , and challenge for the certainty of his ? Euery one of these assure themselues that their spirit is of God. Euery one of them , & all are certaine of their sense of scripture , of their faith , and of their saluation by it , & yet euery one defends a contrary faith , inuents a contrary sense of scripture , condemns the contrary part of heresy , & is certaine by his spirit of the others damnation ; as the other conceaue themselues certaine of their owne saluatiō . What certainty therfore can there be amongst so opposit certainties ? Surely none , but to be certaine , that all of these spirits are most vncertaine and fallible , yea wicked , and damnable ; & that the state of all who depend of them , is pittifull and miserable . That it cannot be meanes of the integrity , and perfection of Faith SECT . IIII. THIRDLY , Faith as it is one and certaine , so it must be entire and Catholicke , that is , the doctrine of it must both in all points be wholy and entirely belieued , & also by all persons be vniuersally and Catholikly professed . It must be in all , and euery point completely belieued , because euery point by God reuealed , and by the Church proposed to vs , is of equall verity , certainty , and necessity of beliefe . Therefore as the keeping of all the Commandmēts doth oblige all , and the breaking of any one , is a transgression of the Law : so the belieuing of all articles of faith , either actually and expresly , as the learned doe ; or virtually and implicite as the vnlearned do ( who expresly belieuing the principall and most necessary to be expresly knowne , do in not doubting or oppugning the rest , virtually belieue al the rest , in that they belieue them as the Church doth teach them ) doth in like manner oblige all ; and the voluntary doubting , or misbelieuing of any one , is an heresy against fayth , and doth violate the integrity which should be in Fayth : of which the fundamentall reason is , because all articles of fayth are belieued for one and the same infallible motiue and reason , that is , for the reuelation of God made knowne by infallible proposition of the Church , of which whosoeuer denies the authority in one point , infringes the infallibility of the same in all points ; for if the reuelation of God , or proposition of Church may faile in one , it may faile in all , & so can giue no certainty of any Out of which followes , that an Heretikes , who obstinatly misbelieues one article reuealed and proposed , is intensiuè no lesse an Infidell , that is , as destitute of any diuine fayth , as is ● Pagan , who belieues not any one Christian article at all ; because what he belieues in any , he belieues not vpon a right true and solid motiue of beliefe , that is , the reuelation of God , and proposition by Church , which if he did , he would for the same belieue also the rest . It must likewise be Catholikly and vniuersally belieued , that is , what was by the first faythfull , the Apostles , & others in the first ages belieued , must also be by the succeeding faythfull in the next ages likewise belieued ; and what is in most places , and Countryes , and hath been by the most faythfull in most Countryes generally belieued , the same must also by others likewise faythfull in other Countryes be generally belieued . By which Catholik beliefe of the same doctrine in all , or the most places , persons , and tymes , is made one Catholike Church among all persons , in all places , and all tymes . But that this Protestant priuate spirit cannot produce any such one , and the same fayth , either entire , and whole in euery point , or Catholicke and generall in all persons , places , and tymes ; that it cannot incline all persons , in all tymes , and places , to belieue all points of one entire Catholike fayth , is proued . First , because it is neither one in all persons , neither hath any lincke or combination of any vnity , to combine in one all persons , as neither proposing to all persons all articles of fayth by one & the same motiue , nor combining all persons dispersed in tyme , and place , in one lincke of one Fayth ; for it is singular , seuerall , priuate , and proper in euery one , without any subordination , or connexion among any , as is apparent by the former instāces of Luther , Zuinglius , Caluin , Rotman , Osiander , Illyricus , Quintinus , Seruetus , Blandrata , and others ; who all , as so many ruptures out of one Riuer , hauing broke the bankes of Catholike vnity , did at seuerall tymes , and places , diuide themselues into seuerall currents of opposition , and runne al a course contrary one to another without meanes , or hope of euer meeting , or reuniting againe . Secondly , because it is a spirit of separation , diuision , and disunion ; in that , whomesoeuer it possesses , it doth separate them as disioynted members from the vnion of Gods holy Church , the spouse and body of Christ ; and doth diuide , and cut them into seuerall peeces and mammocks of sects , schismes , and heresyes . For as euery one receaues a new part , or portion of this new spirit , he chooses to himselfe a new opinion of doctrine , labours to erect and set vp a new Conuenticle of new belieuers , and makes himselfe the head or follower of a new sect , or heresy ; and so all sect-maisters or Heretikes , who in all ages from Christ downewardes , haue separated themselues from his Church and erected a new fayth and Synagogue , haue had their origen and beginning from this spirit , haue made their progresse and proceeding by this spirit , and haue ended themselues and their dolefull and desperate presumption in the obstinacy of this spirit . In all which the scope and marke they aymed at , was thereby to free themselues from all order and subiection , thereby to arrogate to themselues all authority , and dominion ; thereby to exercise what liberty they best affected , and to belieue and teach what doctrine they most fancied , and best fitted their conceit & humour . Thirdly , because this spirit is inuisible , insensible , inperceptible , and vnable to be knowne , or vnderstood ( as they graunt ) by others , or any , saue only they who imagine they are possessed with it . And as it is inuisible and vnknowne , so it is composed of an inuisible and vnknowne company , meeting in inuisible and vnknowne congregations , ministring inuisible and vnknowne Sacraments , making an inuisible and vnknowne Church , consisting of inuisible and vnknowne both Pastors who preached , and people who heard the doctrine of it for many ages togeather , of which they can assigne neither tyme when , nor place where , nor people who were taught by them ; can produce no acts , or monuments , no recordes , or registers either of people who belieued , & professed this their faith , or of Princes who did honour and defend it , or of persecutours who did oppose and persecute it , or of any men , women , or children who were baptized , and liued , or dyed in it . They can nominate no Citty , or Country , no Priest , or Prelate , no Prince or Potentate , no Confessour or Martyr , who belieued , professed , honoured , and defended in paper , or pulpit , by word , or sword , the fayth of this spirit : and why ? Because the directour is a spirit inuisible , which compasseth a Church of persons insensible , who preach a doctrine incredible , and performe actions not memorable . All which is nothing els , but an inuinsible argument of an impossible fiction , inuented in the idle braines of braine-sicke spirits to disguise the nouelty of a new , & new deuised Religion . And this is all the integrity or vniuersality of Fayth , that this priuate spirit can effect or affoard . That it cannot be a meanes of Fayth which is got by hearing . SECT . V. FOVRTLY , This Faith which is thus one and certaine , thus entire and Catholicke , is also ordinarily by one and the same way and meanes , imparted vnto vs , that is , by Hearing : this hearing proceeds from Preaching , & this preaching is deriued frō Mission , according to that of S. Paul , How shal they belieue him whom they haue not heard ? how shall they heare without a preacher ? how shall they preach except they be sent ? So that faith it by hearing , hearing is by preaching of Pastours , and preaching is by mission from the authority of Superiours . Of which the reason is , because faith is an argumēt or proofe of things that do not appeare , either to our sense , or reason , but are aboue our vnderstanding , and capacity ; therfore we cannot attaine to it by euidence of reason , but by credit of authority . To this authority , that we may giue credit , we must conceaue , and heare it ; this hearing , that we may be obliged to accept it , must by Church-Pastors be proposed , and preached to vs ; and this preaching , that it may the better secure vs of it , must be from lawfull mission by ordinary succession deriued ; and so lawfull mission from apostolical authority , infallible preaching or proposition of Pastours , and a pious disposition in vs to heare and belieue what is thus proposed , are the meanes by which , according to S. Paul , true faith is attained . But this priuat spirit quite ouerthrowes all this excellēt order , and subordination ordayned by Christ Iesus , & proposed to vs by the holy Ghost . For first , it alone without any disposition of hearing , without any proposition , or preaching of Church Pastours , without any authority of apostolicall mission , and ordination , teaches and directs , in particuler , euery one , man , woman , or child , which is true Scripture , which is true sense of it , and which is true doctrine collected out of it , therfore euery one thus made faithfull by this spirit , stands need neither of disposition to heare what is to be belieued , nor of preaching to belieue what they heare , nor of mission , and ordination to secure them of what is preached ; because this spirit supplies the effect of all both ordination , proposition , and disposition of hearing , therfore all order and discipline , all subordination , and subiection , all sacraments , or preaching , are needlesse , yea fruitlesse in Gods Church . As this spirit secures alone ; so without Sacraments it sanctifies alone . As it instructs all in faith ; so it corrects all in errours against faith ▪ And as it is directed by none , but God ; so it is subordinate to none , but God alone , obliged to none , obedient to none ; it is immediate ( as they which haue it imagine ) from God , & it wil be subiect only to God , it will be directed only by God ; it alone inspires all what they are to belieue , alone works all what they are to do , and alone secures all that they cannot faile of their end and saluation ; and so alone to all is all in all , that is , the beginning , progresse , and end of all grace and goodnesse . Thus is the spirit to them , if you will credit them . Secondly , It alone hath warrant , and commission , power , and authority , in whomsoeuer it is , whether he be yonge or old , simple or wise , vnlearned or learned , secular or spirituall , to examine & censure , to giue sentence , and iudgment in any cause or Controuersy , ouer any Pastour , or Prelate , vpon any Councell or Church , particuler or generall , present or past , late or auncient . For as Caluin , and Kemnitius , for example , by the prerogatiue of this their spirit , tooke vpon them to censure and correct , by their Examine and Antidote , not only the late generall Councel of Trent , but also the auncient generall Councels of Nice , Constantinople , Chalcedon , and Ephesus , yea & the whole Church of God , and all Doctours in it for many ages togeather , ( as is before shewed ; ) so euery bible-bearing Ghospeller , who hath got but a tast of this spirit , and can but read the Scripture in English , will by the same prerogatiue of this spirit , assume to himselfe the same authority to examine the same examiners , to censure the same censurers , and to iudge the spirit of the former iudges , yea to examine , censure , and iudge all Pastours , Doctours , Fathers , Councells , and Churches , and to determine which of them haue erred , what sense of Scripture is to be preferred , and what Fayth , and Religion is to be imbraced . All which as these new Protestant Maisters first practised vpon the ancient Fathers ; so these their new discipls haue learned to practise the same vpon them their maisters , and do as well censure them , as they did their Predecessours : and that worthily ; for what they taught and practised against their Fathers , is a iust punishment that their children should learne , and practise the same against them . That it cannot be a meanes of fayth , which requirs credible testimonies . SECT . VI. FIFTHLY , this fayth as it is obtained by piously hearing the infallible preaching of Pastours lawfully ordained and sent ; so also it requires , besides diuine reuelation , reasons and motiues of credibility , forcible to moue the Vnderstanding to accept , as probable , this doctrine of Fayth , thus by preaching proposed , and by God reuealed : for ( as before ) He that giueth credit quickly , is light of hart . And reasons of credibility ( such as are miracles , sanctity , vnity , conuersions of Nations , and such like , before mentioned ) doe make a true fayth more credible , according to that of Dauid : Thy testimonies are made too credible . But that this priuate spirit cannot giue any such credible testimonies , or produce any probable motiue to conuince any one , that it is a true spirit of God , or a certaine meanes of faith , is proued ; Because it cannot alledge any consent of people , and nations , nor any authority of miracles , to vse S. Augustines words , nourished by hope , increased by charity , and confirmed by antiquity , such as confirmed S. Augustine in his faith it : cannot alleadge any vnity which it causeth either with the head , Christ , or with his body , the Church ; not any sanctity which it worketh , by works memorable for piety , or miraculous for power and vertue ; not any consent of vniuersality , by which it hath been imbraced in all places , at all times , by all nations , and persons , no not in ancient time , by any persons renowned for holinesse and learning ; not any succession of Pastours , prelates , doctours , or saints who haue relied themselues , their faith , & saluation vpon it : it cannot produce any one euident , either authority of holy scripture , or any one tradition of apostolicall time , or any one practise of auncient Church , or any one decree of generall Councels , or any one testimony of learned Doctours , or any one probable , much lesse conuincing argument of reason , that either all , or any one man must , or may settle his beliefe in it , interprete the Scripture by it , rely his saluation vpon it , deduce all resolutions of fayth , all questions of Controuersies , all doubts of Religion from it , and giue peremptory iudgment and sentence of all Pastours and Prelates , of all Saints and Doctours , of all Churches and Councells , of all doctrine and religion , according to the suggestion of it , which yet the precise Protestāts do both in doctrine professe , and in practise performe . That it cannot be a meanes of fayth , which obliges all to belieue and accept it . SECT . VII . SIXTHLY , fatyh , to whome it is by God reuealed , by Church proposed , and by credible testimonyes conuinced , obligeth them to accept it , and to giue credit , and testimony to it , to be directed and ordered by it , and to submit their iudgement in obedience of fayth vnto it , according to that of S. Paul , bringing into (a) Captiuity all vnderstanding vnto the obedience of Christ ; and (b) as children of obedience , (c) receauing grace for obedience to the fayth . Whereupon it is sayd , (d) He that doth not belieue , shal be condemned . Because when it is sufficiently deliuered & declared what we are to belieue , and do , they who by negligence do not imbrace and follow it , are inexcusable , and so deserue damnation . And as they who are obliged to attaine to the end , are obliged to vse & apply the meanes necessary for that end , without which the end cannot be attained ; so , because we Catholikes for our part , do hould a pious disposition to heare that which is authentically preached , and proposed by Pastours lawfully ordained : And because the Protestants , for their part , do hold the motion , and suggestion of the priuate spirit to be a necessary meanes for the attaining vnto fayth ; it followes that as the one is bound to giue audience , and obedience to al preaching of Pastours lawfully sent , and proposition of Church defining what is to be belieued and practised ; so the other is bound to heare and obey euery motion , and suggestion of this their priuate spirit speaking in them , and inspiring them what to do , and belieue . But that this spirit cannot vnder any precept naturall , or diuine , oblige any one , much lesse all men to accept , credit , and rely vpon it , and to make it their rule , and foundation ; their iudge , and vmpier , the assurer and securer of their scripture-sense , their fayth , their religion , and their saluatiō ; as it is of it selfe more euident ; so by these reasons it is confirmed . First , because as it is often before touched , no man hath any certaine meanes , or ground , wheron to build a certaine resolution of the certainty , either of this spirit , or of euery motion of it , that it is of God , not of nature , or Sathan . 2. Because no such precept is intimated in any Scripture , Tradition , Councel , or Church-command . 3. Because it would follow , that men should be obliged to belieue and follow spirits contrary , and motions of them contrary , and so senses of Scripture contrary , Fayths and Religions contrary , and opinions of saluation contrary : for as Luther had one spirit , and one motion of it ; Caluin another spirit , and a contrary motion of it ; Osiander a third spirit , and an opposit motion of it : & so ●n like manner Swenkfeldius , Rotman , Seruetus , Quintinus , Dauid-george , Moore , Hacket , and an hundred more Sectaryes , had euery one of them distinct spirits , and contrary motions of them in the sense of Scripture which they expounded , in the articles of their fayth which they belieued , and in the certainty of their saluation vpon which they presumed ; so euery one being obliged to belieue and follow their owne spirit , & the motion of it , in the Scripture-sense , fayth and saluation ; diuers should be obliged to belieue , and follow contrary spirits , and contrary motions of contrary spirits , and so contrary senses of Scripture , contrary faithes and religions , and contrary certainty of saluation , which is as absurd , as in religion absurd may be . Also , because as the wind blowes , so the spirit moues , sometymes one way , sometymes another , sometymes to this thing , sometymes to to the contrary , suggesting now one meaning of Scripture , now another , now one Fayth , then another , and sometymes doubts of all Faith , and suggests no fayth at all , & often dispaires of all grace , and leaues no hope of assurance of any saluation at all : It would likewise follow that men should be obliged sometimes to belieue no fayth at all , sometymes to dispaire of all grace , goodnes , and saluation , and sometymes to haue as deep a conceit of their damnation , as other tymes they haue of their saluation . Whereby still following a wauering spirit , and tottering motions of it , they should wauer and totter betweene vncertaintyes , and contrarietyes , and remaine alwayes vncertaine in themselues , and contrary to others , and so be like Cloudes without water , carryed with euery ayre , like waues of the Sea tossed with euery wind , foaming out their owne confusion , like wandering stars , to whome a storme of darkenesse is reserued for euer . And thus much of reasons drawne from the nature , and properties of Fayth , which may suffice to conuince , that this priuate spirit , and the motion of it , are so farre from being any necessary meanes of Fayth , and Religion , that they cannot so much as consist with any , but are opposite to all true Fayth and Religion . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS AVTHORITY To iudge of Fayth ; confuted by circular absurdities which follow thereupon , in the groundes of their Fayth . CHAP. VIII . Of the nature of a Circle , and the differences of Circles . SECT . I. NOTHING doth make more pl●ine , to a plaine vnderstanding , the absurdity of this priuate spirit , then the absurdities which doe follow vpon it , against both faith , & reason . These absurdities are of two sortes . The one Circular , inuoluing an absurd manner of proofe , & proceeding by way of a Circle , condemned by all principles of Philosophy , and Diuinity . The other Doctrinall ( as we may tearme them ) inferring a doctrine absurd , and dissonant from all principles of Fayth , piety , and reason . In this Chapter we will shew the Circular absurdities , in the next the Doctrinall which doe follow vpon this priuate spirit , and the Protestants doctrine taught by it . For the Circular absurdities we may note . 1. Of a circle , what a Circle , and a Circular proofe is . 2. The difference betweene a circular proofe lawfull , & vnlawfull : & 3. therby iudge , and make an estimate of the Catholike and Protestant mutuall obiection , the one against the other in this kind . First therefore Aristotle , in his demonstrations hauing proued that in euery demonstration we must come to some principles or propositions imediatly knowne of themselues , and not demonstrable by another medium , or proposition ; disproues two sortes of Philosophers , the one affirming that there can be no demonstration of any thing at all ; the other contrariwise affirming that there may be demonstrations of euery thing euē of the first principles or propositions , which by a circular demonstration ( say they ) , may be demonstrated by the conclusion , as the conclusion is demonstrated by the premises ; admitting therby a Circular demonstration of the conclusion by the premises , and of the premises againe by the conclusion . This latter errour of Circular proofe he cōfutes by three reasons . 1. Because it would be petitio principij , or the begging of the question , which , as before in his former bookes of Resolution , he resolued , was when the medium , or proposition prouing any thing , is either the same which is to be proued , or more obscure , or as obscure , or knowne after the thing to be proued . All which inconueniences this Circular manner of probation doth inferre , making the probation either the same , or equally , or more obscure then the thing to be proued . 2. Because it would follow , that idem should be prius & posterius , notius & ignotius respectu eiusdem , knowne & vnknowne , first knowne and after knowne in respect of the same . As when the premises do demonstrate the conclusion they must be first and better knowne then the Concl●sion . And againe ▪ when the conclusion doth demonstrate the premises it should be first and better knowne then the premises & so the same conclusion shal be prius & notius , as demonstrating the premises , and posterius & ignotius , as demonstrated and proued by the premises , both being vnderstood of the same premises . 3. Because this Circular proofe , is to proue the same to be the same , because it is the same ; as the conclusion to be true , if it be true , or because it is true . As ( saith Aristotle ) Si A est , B est ; si B est , A est ; ergo , si A est , A est . In which as A is proued to be A , because it is A ; so the conclusion is proued to be true , because it is true . Whereupon Aristotle concludes , that euery Circular proofe and demonstration which is regressus ab eodem ad omnino idem , that is , when we returne frō one thing to the same thing againe , and from one proofe to the same proofe againe , is vitious and vnlawfull in Logicke . And thus much of the nature of a Circle . Secondly , for the difference betweene a proper Circle , which is bad , and an improper which is good and lawfull , we may note also , that euery kind of Circular and reciprocall proofe is not vnlawfull ; for some is reciprocall betweene the cause and the effect , as betweene rationale and risibile , betweene the Sunne & the Day . And thus may be proued the effect by the cause à priori , as Est risibile quia est rationale : est dies quia Sol lucet ; or on the contrary , the cause by the effect à posteriori , as Est rationale quia est risibile : or Sol lucet quia est dies . Other proofes are reciprocall betweene two causes of diuers kindes , as betweene the efficient cause and the finall , in which sense we proue Phisicke to be good because , as the efficient cause , it causeth and worketh health ; and health to be good , because as the finall cause , or end it moueth to take Phisicke . Or betweene the efficient and materiall cause , as when we proue the entrance of the wind to be the cause , that is efficient of opening the window , and the opening of the window to be the cause that is materiall of the entrance of the wind . Or when we proue the aboundance of raine by the aboundance of vapours , as by the materiall cause ; and the aboundance of vapours , by the aboundance of raine , as by the effect . All which kind of reciprocall or Circular proofe , of the cause by the effect , and the effect by the cause , or of one cause by another , is good and allowed in Logicke , as being improperly a Circle . Only that which is disallowed , and by Aristotle , & all condemned , is that proper manner of Circle , which is , 1. when in the same kind of cause one thing is proued by another , and this againe by the former , which is either idem per idem , or ignotum per ignotius . 2. When this reciprocall proofe is made by one and the same cause , in one and the same manner of proofe . 3. When to one , and the selfe same person this one thing is thus proued by another , and this againe by the former , the one mutually prouing the other : as when the premises demonstrate the conclusion , and the conclusion againe the premises , both being otherwise vnknowne . As when the maister proues the seruant to be innocent , and the seruant the maister , both being before suspected as guilty . In which the same thing is notius & ignotius , prius & posterius , that is , more knowne and lesse knowne , first knowne and after knowne , both in one and the same respect , and in respect of one and the same person , and so a thing vnknowne is proued by another more vnknowne , which is that vnlawfull Circle or Circular manner of demonstration disallowed and condemned by Aristotle . By which is manifest what a Circular proofe is , and of Circular manners of proofes , which is improper & lawfull , and which proper and vnlawfull . Thirdly , Both Catholicks and Protestantes , do mutually accuse one another of this vicious and Circular arguing , and manner of proofe . The Protestants accuse the Catholicks because they proue the authority of the scripture by the authority of the Church , and the authority of the Church by the authority of scripture . For aske a Catholicke how he knowes the Scripture to be infallible and true , he will answer , because the Church tels him it is so : aske him how he proues the Church to be infallible and true , he wil answer because the scripture sayes it is so ; and so he proues the Scripture by the Church , and the Church by the Scripture . The Catholicks accuse the Protestants because they proue the scripture by the spirit , and the spirit by the scripture : for aske a Protestant how he knowes the scripture to be true , and the true sense of it , he answers because the spirit so tels and assures him : aske him how he knowes the spirit that it is of God , and speakes truth , he answers because the scripture tels and assures him so ; and so he knowes the Scripture by the spirit , and the spirit by the Scripture . The Catholikes cleared from the obiected Circle , against their doctrine . SECT . II. THE question therefore is , whether the Catholiks betweene Scripture and Church , or the Protestants betweene the Scripture and the Spirit , and otherwise , do fall into this kind of vitious argumentation , and proofe , in māner of a Circle . And that the Catholikes are free from this fault , and do make their proofe to seuerall sortes of persons in seuerall kinds of causes , & by a partiall manner of proofe , and thereby do still proue one thing vnknowne by another more knowne to those persons , is first to be proued . For which we may note , that the Catholikes require to Fayth ( for so much as is for our purpose ) two thinges . First , a preparation , to prepare vs to accept the thinges belieued as credible , and in prudence worthy to be belieued , which is wrought by credible testimonyes , such as are miracles , consent , sanctity , antiquity , and the rest before mētioned , by which our vnderstanding is euidently conuinced to iudge and accept of the Christian Religion , as more worthy or credit then any other . Secondly , they require a firme assent or beliefe to the articles of fayth , proposed as true , and of infallible verity , which is wrought by the habit of fayth , and dependes vpon the diuine reuelation of God , declaring in Scripture , or Tradition , and proposing by holy Church , what , and why we are to belieue : vpon which reuelation thus proposed , we settle our last resolution of fayth , and the certainty of it , as vpon the former credible motiues , or humane fayth we setled our preparation , or acceptation of fayth , and the credibility of it . Now , if we compare or apply these togeather , it will euidently appeare , that in neither is committed any Circle , because the former , that is , the acceptation depends vpon credible motiues which are as the Samaritan womans word , making it seeme probable that Christ was the Messias ; and the later , that is the assent to Fayth , dependes ●pon diuine reuelation , which is as our Sauiours word reuealing to them , that he is the true Messias , and so both haue seuerall grounds and principles on which they depend ; the one credible testimonies , the other diuine reuelation : wherby comparing them togeather , no appearance of any circular proofe can be found betweene them . For the actuall assent and beliefe it selfe , whereby we infallibly belieue the mysteries reuealed , though we belieue the verity of Scripture reuelations by the authority of Church proposition , and Church proposition for the authority of Scripture reuelation , whereby Scripture reuelation doth giue vs testimony of Church proposition , and againe Church proposition of Scripture reuelation ; Yet that this reciprocall testimony and proofe , is not any proper and vitious Circle , is proued . First , because it is in diuerso genere causa , in diuers kinds of causes ( which before out of Aristotle is admitted for good and lawfull : ) for the testimonyes of Scripture reuelation to the infallibility of Church proposition is causall as a cause , and that formall , why we belieue and assent to Church proposition . But Church proposition is only conditionall , as conditio sine quae non , to know Scripture reuelation ; and so they are reciprocall in a different manner of proofe , the one , that is Scripture , à priori , as including diuine reuelation ; the other , that is Church , à posteriori , required only as a condition . The former , as a formall precedent cause ; the latter , as a subsequent annexed condition . Both of them not much vnlike to our Sauiours testimony of S. Iohn Baptist , and to S. Iohns testimony of our Sauiour : the one as of God and infallible , the other as of an holy man , & credible : or to the testimony of our B. Sauiour , & the woman to the Samaritans : the one as giuing certainty , the other as proposing credibility of his being the Messias : Or to the former example of rationale and risibile , of the Sun-shine and the Day , of the Vapours and Raine , of the opening the Window and the entring of the Wind. All which reciprocally proue one another , as the cause and the effect , or as seuerall causes . And all which doe much resemble the testimony of Scripture to the Church , and of the Church to the Scripture , which is likewise in a seuerall kind of causality , and a different manner of probation . Secondly , because this reciprocall proofe is not ad omnino idem , as Aristotle requires to a proper Circle , that is , the one is not the totall and sole cause of knowing the other . For Church proposition is not knowne only by Scripture reuelation , and no other way ; but also by other proofes , signes , and credible testimonies , conuincing that Church authority is necessary and infallible to distinguish true sense of Scripture from false , and to end Controuersies about Scripture . And therefore as Aristotle admits , that though the premises haue proued the conclusion , yet the conclusion may againe proue the premises , & that in eodem genere causae , so that the conclusion be proued by another medium then by the premises . So , though the Scripture reuelation proue Church proposition , yet Church proposition may againe reciprocally proue Scripture reuelation , so it be knowne by another meanes ( as we see it is ) then only by Scripture reuelation ; for this , according to Aristotle , is only an improper Circle , and not a bad , and vnlawfull Circle . Thirdly , because this reciprocall proofe is not to one & the same person who is ignorant or doubtful of both : but to diuers persons , and such as suppose the one . For to a Catholike who admits , as belieued , Church propositiō , we proue by it Scripture-sense , or reuelation , and so an vnknowne thing to him , by another thing supposed and knowne to him : but to a Protestant who admits , as by him belieued , Scripture reuelation , we proue by it Church proposition , & so to him a thing vnknowne by another more knowne . But to a Pagan who admits neither Scripture reuelation , nor Church proposition , we proue neither of them one by another , but both the one and the other by other probable motiues and credible testimonies , more agreeable to his natural capacity , and by them persuade him , first to accept as credible , Church proposition , and by it Scripture reuelation : by which Scripture and Church , or scripture expounded by Church , we persuade him to assent , and belieue the articles reuealed . In all which we proue ignotum per notius , the vnknowne by the more knowne to him , and so preparing him to giue credit to one , do by that induce him to belieue the other . By which meanes , we still proceed from a thing knowne , to an vnknowne to that person , and so auoyd the Circle , and begging of the question , into which the Protestants runne , and there sticke fast . In which , note the difference betweene them and vs , for they proue reciprocally and circularly the Scripture by the spirit , and the spirit againe by scripture in the same kind of proofe , to wit formally , as shal be shewed : We proue scripture by Church , and Church by scripture , in diuers kindes of cause , to wit , the one causall , and the other conditionall , as is shewed . 2. They proue the one by the other , no otherwise knowne then by the other , as the scripture by the spirit , which spirit is only , and by no other meanes , knowne then by scripture , and é contra , as shal be shewed : But we haue more means to know the Church then by scripture , as is shewed . 3. They proue one by the other to the same person , to wit the Protestant , doubtfull of both : we to diuers persons who suppose & belieue the one , & so ( ad hominem ) by that we proue the other . Al which as it is true as presently shal be shewed , so it shewes an apparent difference between the Protestant circular māner of proofe of scripture by spirit , and of spirit by scripture ; and of our Catholike improper Circle , and lawfull manner of proofe of scripture by Church , and of Church by scripture . And thus much to cleare the imputation layd vpon Catholikes for their circular manner of proceeding in their proofe of scripture by the Church , and of Church by scripture . The Protestants diuers manners of Circles . SECT . III. SVBDIV. ● . The Circle betweene the Scripture , and the Spirit . IT remaynes to shew , that the Protestants doe seuerall wayes fall into this vnlawfull Circular manner of probation , for which we may note , how the Protestants for their doctrine of fayth , iustification , and saluation , do make this gradation & concatenation of one point with another . The first ground of all , they make Gods free and irrespectiue election , or predestination of some to his grace and saluation , & his like reiection & condemnation of others to damnation . 2. To these elect , and only to them , God giues true fayth , and certaine assurance of their saluation . 3. To these faythfull , & only to them , he giues the infallible assistance of this his priuate spirit . 4. To this spirit , and only to it , he giues the true and certaine vnderstanding of the holy Scipture , & the sense of it . So that 1. Election , 2. Fayth , 3. The spirit , 4. Vnderstanding of Scripture , is as a chaine of many lincks , whereof all are so connected , euery one with another , as he that hath one , hath all ; and he that wantes one , wantes all . For ( say they ) the vnderstanding of scripture is giuen only to them , and to all them who haue the spirit ; the spirit is giuen only to them , and to all them , who haue fayth ; Fayth is giuen only to them , and to all them , who are elect ; and so all , and only the elect , are faithfull ; all , and only the faithfull , haue the spirit ; all ▪ and only they that haue the spirit , vnderstand Scripture . And so à primo ad vltimum , all , & ōly the elect , must haue true fayth , spirit , and vnderstanding of Scripture . In which , election is the mother and foundation ; the vnderstāding of Scripture , the fruit & top of al their perfection . This is the connexion of their doctrine concerning their faith and saluation . Now as cōcerning the knowledge & infallible assurance of all these , which ( according to their groundes ) euery one of them must haue of himselfe , to wit , that he is elect , faithfull , and hath the true spirit of God , & the right vnderstanding of scripture : As concerning ( I say ) the assurance of all these , and the meanes of this assurance , whereupon depends their saluation ; if any shall demand of them , whereupon they ground this their certainty , and assurance of all these , that is , their election , fayth , spirit , & scripture-sense ( which are inseparable , and infallibly according to them , ensuing one vpon another ) it will appeare by their answere , that they haue no groundes at all ; but that they runne in a round , and Circle , rowling and wheeling from one ground or principle to another , and from that to the former backe againe , without any firme or setled groūd and resolution whereon to stay themselues , and their fayth ; whereupon they skip forward and backward , from one to another , that is , from the scripture to the spirit , and from the spirit to the scripture againe ; from the spirit to fayth , & from faith to the spirit againe ; from faith to election , and from election to fayth againe ; and so from election to scripture againe , and from scripture to election backe againe . For aske a Protestant , how , and by what meanes he vnderstands the Scripture ? He answers ; by the spirit . And aske him , how , and by what meanes he knowes that he hath the true spirit ? He answers by Scripture . And so knowes the scripture by the spirit , and the spirit by scripture . Againe , aske him how , and by what meanes he is assured of his faith ? He answers by his spirit , and scripture : but how is he sure of his spirit and scripture ? by his fayth backe againe . Further , aske him how , and by what meanes he is assured of his election ? He answers by his fayth , his spirit , or the scripture , and yet his election is the ground of his fayth , spirit , and vnderstanding of scripture . So that , 1. The scripture proues the spirit , and the spirit the scripture . 2. The spirit proues his fayth , and his fayth the spirit . 3. His faith proues his election , and his election is the ground of his fayth , & with it , of his spirit , and knowledge of scripture also . So that as many linckes as are in their chaine , so many Circles and circular proofes are made by them , and all in vaine , and to no purpose at all , as shall be shewed . And first of their first circular proofe , betweene the scripture and the spirit , it shal be plainely proued , that they fall directly and headlong into Aristotles proper , and so much condemned Circle , prouing the scripture by the spirit , and the spirit by the scripture againe , in one and the same kind of cause , to one and the same person , and by one sole and whole manner of proofe . In all which we haue before cleared our selues , and our doctrine from the obiected Circle against vs. For which we may obserue two principles of Protestant doctrine : the one , that the scripture only is the rule and meanes to come to the knowledge of the certainty of all thinges to be belieued ; wherupon they reiect all Tradition & vnwritten word of God , and rely only vpon the written word for the sole and complete rule of fayth . The other , that this written word is to be interpreted , and vnderstood only by the spirit of the Lord , which , as it is particuler and priuate in euery man , so euery man must be directed by his priuate spirit in the vnderstanding and interpreting of the scripture , and in the collecting out of it what he is to belieue ; wherupō they reiect all authority of Church , Councels , or Fathers , and make only the priuate spirit the Rule and Iudge of interpreting scripture , as in the first part is at large proued . Which being supposed , it will euidently appeare , how the Protestants runne this Circle , betweene this priuate spirit , and scripture . For aske a Protestant , how he knowes infallibly which is scripture , and which is true sense of it ? He answeres , by the internal testimony of the priuate spirit assuring him it is so . Aske him , how he infallibly knowes this his internall testimony of his spirit , is the testimony of the holy Ghost ? He answers , by the scripture assuring him it is so ; for my sheep heare my voice . Aske him againe , how he knowes infallibly this is scripture , and this the true meaning of this scripture ? He runnes backe to the testimony of his spirit . And againe , how he knowes that this his testimony of his spirit is the spirit of God ? He returnes to the scripture againe . Thus he wheeles in a round betweene scripture and spirit , prouing the scripture by the spirit , and the spirit by the scripture ; an vnknowne spirit by an vnknowne scripture , and an vnknowne scripture by an vnknowne spirit , one vnknowne , by another as vnknowne . And if Aristotle did hould it an absurd demonstration & proof to proue the Conclusion by the premises , and the premises againe by the conclusion in the same manner of proofe , which was , as he reasons , as much as to proue A by B , and againe B by A. which is either idem per seipsum , or ignotum per aequè ig notum ; And if S. Augustine did count it absurd for the Manichees to proue their Fundamental Epistle to be Canonicall , because Manes held it to be so , and Manes to be a Prophet or Apostle , because his Fundamētall Epistle did affirme him to be so , wherein he himselfe gaue testimony to his Epistle , and his Epistle to him ; as the maister giues to the seruant , and the seruant to the maister , when both are in question ; And if it were absurd for any to belieue Simon Magus and Selena , or Hellena , or Montanus and his Priscilla and Maximilla Prophetesses , or Mahomet and his Sergius the Arian to be true Prophets , because one did affirme and proue the other his companion to be a Prophet , both being suspected and vnknowne , and both wanting other kind of proofe , then mutuall and Circular affection one of another : Then in like manner , it is as great absurdity and folly for one to belieue the scripture and sense of it , because the priuate spirit affirmes it to be the true sense ; and againe the priuate spirit to be the true spirit of God , because the Scripture interpreted by that priuate spirit , affirmes it to be so . In which manner of proofe , all the conditions do concurre , which Aristotle requires to a proper and vnlawfull Circle , or circular demonstration . For 1. They proue circularly and reciprocally one another , as the spirit proues the scripture , and the scripture againe the spirit , in which is regressus ab eodem ad idem . 2. They proue circularly one another in eodem genere causae , for the spirit is the formall cause , why they belieue the sense of the scripture , and that sense of scripture is the formall cause , why they belieue that to be the spirit of God. 3. They proue one another totally and wholy , that is , the sole and whole reason why they belieue that is the sense of scripture , is the spirit ; and the sole & whole reason why they belieue this is the spirit , is that sense of Scripture framed by that spirit . 4. They proue one another not only circularly , wholy , and in the same manner of causes , but also to one and the same person . For as this spirit can assure only him who hath it , not another , that this is true sense of scripture , and this true sense of scripture can assure only him , not another , that this is the true spirit ( for according to their doctrine no man can be assured of anothers spirit , that it is of God , but only himselfe who hath it ; ) so doth this priuate spirit , and this scripture both assure one person , to wit , him that hath it , and that circularly , that this spirit is of God , & that this scripture is truly vnderstood by this spirit , which is most proper to that Circle , condemned by Aristotle for vnlawfull . And thus much of the first proofe . Secondly , the same absurdities which Aristotle infers vpon a circular demonstration betweene the premises and cōclusion do follow vpon this Circle betweene the scripture and the spirit . For , 1. The same thing doth proue it selfe . For if by A , I proue B , and againe by B , I proue A , then I proue A by A : or if I proue the conclusion by the premises , and the premises againe by the conclusion , then I proue the conclusion by it selfe , as Aristotle reasons . So , if I proue the spirit by the scripture , and the scripture againe by the spirit , then I proue the spirit by the spirit it selfe : for the spirit which proues that the scripture is true , by the same scripture proues that it selfe is the true spirit ; therefore the same is proued by the same . 2. The same thing is prius notum & posterius notum in respect of the same thing . For as the conclusion is knowne after the premises , as it is proued by them , and therefore the premises as it proues them ; so the spirit is knowne after the scripture as it is proued by scripture to be the spirit , and knowne also before the same scripture as it proues it to be scripture ; and so it is posterius & prius cognitum respectu eiusdem , first knowne and after knowne in respect of the same . 3. The same thing vnknowne is proued by another vnknowne . For as , when Simon Magus vnknowne to be a Prophet , is proued to be a Prophet by his Selena as vnknowne : Or when Montanus is so proued by his Maximilla : Or Manes by his Epistle , and Mahomet by his Sergius , the one vnknowne Prophet is proued by another vnknowne : So when this scripture and sense of it is knowne by a spirit as vnknowne & doubtfull , as is the scripture and sense it selfe , then one vnknowne is proued by another as vnknowne ; which is against all manner of lawfull proofe , where one ignotum vnknowne , must be proued by another notius more knowne . Whereupon follow these absurdities . 1. That the spirit doth proue it selfe . 2. That it doth proue ignotum por ignotum , that is , the vnknowne sense of scripture by the spirit vnknowne . 3. That this spirit is prius & posterius notum in respect of the same scripture . By which absurdities as Aristotle did disproue the Philosophers circular demonstration of the conclusion by the premises , and of the premises againe by the conclusion ; so we disproue the Protestants circular proofe of the spirit by the scripture , and of the scripture by the spirit . And as S. Augustine did reiect the Manichees proofe , who by Manes did proue their Fundamentall Epistle , and by their Epistle Manes : And as the Fathers reiected the Mon●anists proofe , who by Montanus proued Maximilla to be a Prophetesse , and by Maximilla Montanus to be an Apostle : So do we reiect the Protestants proofe , who by the Scripture will proue their spirit to be of God , and by the spirit the sense of scripture to be true . And as a Iudge should be partiall and vnwise who should admit the Maister to cleare the seruant , and the seruant to cleare the maister , when both are accused as guilty of the same crime ; so should we be partiall and vnwise , if we should admit their spirit to proue their sense of scripture , and their true sense of scripture to proue their spirit , when both are in the same Circle , and both vnknowne and doubtfull . By which we see that Protestants walke in a circle , and performe that which Dauid sayth , The wicked walke in a Circle . And that which S. Augustine out of the 139. Psal . sayth : VVhat is this circuit ? To go round not to stand , to go in a round of errour , where they trauell without end ; for they , who go on forward , begin in one place , and end in another ; but he who goes in a round neuer ends . This is the labour of the wicked , as is shewed in another Psalme ; The wicked walke in a round . Thus S. Augustine , and that truely ; for they haue neither beginning from which to deriue , nor end wheron to rest themselues and their groundes of doctrine , but caput circuitus , the head , the ground , and foundation of their doctrine consists in a Circle , in which they still wheele in a round , out of which they can neuer vnwind themselues , and by which they can neuer proue any thing to be true , as Aristotle sayth . And thus much of the first kind of Circle made by the Protestants betweene the spirit and the scripture : let vs proceed to the second , betweene the spirit and fayth . SVBDIV. 2. The Circle betweene the Spirit and Fayth . SECONDLY , that they commit another the like Circle betweene their spirit and fayth , is likewise proued , if first we consider and compare two of their pointes of doctrine generally receaued . The one , that they are iustified only by fayth , and that vpon it doth depend their spirit , by which they interprete scripture ; so that fayth is the root and origen of the spirit , and presupposed to it . The other , that the scripture interpreted by the spirit of God , or the spirit of God interpreting scripture is the only & whole meanes to attaine to fayth ; and so is the ground and meanes of fayth , and therefore presupposed to faith . Which supposed : aske a Protestant how , and by what meanes he assures himselfe that he hath true and certaine fayth ? He answers , by his spirit interpreting the scripture , or by the scipture interpreted by his spirit , which is all one , for so they answere : but I reply , that that cannot be , because his fayth , and the knowledge of it , as the mother and origen of his spirit which interprets scripture , is , according to the former principles , precedent and presupposed before the spirit and the knowledge of it , therefore the spirit cannot be a ground & meanes of fayth , which is precedent and presupposed as the cause of this spirit . Againe , aske him how , and by what meanes he assures himselfe that his spirit thus interpreting scripture is the true spirit of God ? He answers , by his faith : but I reply that cannot be , because the scripture interpreted by this spirit , or this spirit interpreting scripture , is , according to the latter principle , the sole and whole meanes of fayth ; therefore it cannot be knowne by fayth , sith it is the meanes of fayth , & presupposed to it . Either therefore must their principles be false , that a man is iustifyed by Fayth , which is the origen of the spirit , and that the scripture is the sole meanes of Fayth , or els if they stand to this their doctrine , this Circle and absurdity must follow , that fayth is first presupposed , and knowne before the spirit , as the cause of it , & the spirit is likewise first presupposed and knowne before faith , as the meanes to it , and so fayth is before the spirit , and the spirit before fayth ; and fayth is knowne before the spirit , and the spirit knowne before fayth . And so both fayth and spirit are prius & posterius , ech of them , both first and last knowne in respect of the other , which is to incurre the former Circle , and also the absurdities by which Aristotle confutes it . SVBDIV. 3. The Circle betweene Election , & Vnderstanding of Scripture . THIRDLY , that a third Circle is committed ( to omit a fourth betweene Election and Fayth , of which the same may be inferred as was betweene faith and the spirit ) betweene the first and last lincke of this chaine , that is , betweene Election , and the certainty of it , and the Scripture , and the vnderstanding of it , shal out of two other principles compared appeare . The first , that only the elect and predestinate are endewed with fayth , and all the reprobate excluded from it . Wherupon also followes that only the elect haue the true spirit of God and right vnderstanding of scripture , which according to them are the effects and fruit of fayth , and that election is the ground of all fayth , spirit and vnderstanding of scripture . The second , that they haue certainty by fayth of their election , and that by the word of God , which doth assure and secure them that they are predestinate ; so the word of the Lord is the meanes of their knowledge , and certainty of their election . Out of which two positions , I reason thus : Election is the ground of fayth , of the spirit , and of the vnderstanding of scripture , according to the former principle , because only the Elect haue fayth , the spirit , and true sense of Scripture ; therefore it is presupposed as knowne before fayth , the spirit , and sense of scripture , and is the ground of them all , which once supposed , the rest do necessarily follow vpon it ; and fayling , the rest must also faile with it . On the contrary , scripture , and the true vnderstanding of it , is their meanes and only meanes to know the spirit , fayth , and election , according to the latter principle , because all their fayth and assurance both of fayth and election is grounded vpon scripture , therfore true vnderstanding of scripture must be precedent and presupposed as foreknowne before the knowledge and assurance of Election , which is to be knowne only by scripture , as the only meanes to know it . Now , according to these principles , aske a Protestant , how he knowes his election ? He must , and doth answere , by scripture , which is his only meanes to secure him of his fayth and election ; therefore the true meaning of scripture must be first knowne before either spirit , fayth , or election can be knowne and assured , because it is the only meanes to know them , and the last resolution whereon to setle them . On the contrary , aske him how , he comes to know , and be certaine of his true vnderstanding of scripture ? He must returne backe againe , & doth answere , by the spirit , which assures him which is scripture and true sense of it . Aske further , how he is certaine of his hauing the true spirit ? He answers by fayth , by which he belieues , that he hath the true spirit . Aske yet lastly , how he knowes , and is certaine of his fayth ? He answers , because he is elect and chosen , and therefore must needes haue faith : Heere then is Election , which was before the thing in question , now made the last ground of resolution , vpon which all the rest , as fayth , spirit , and scripture , are to be grounded , & by which they are resolued & knowne , as before scripture was made the first meanes , and last resolution vpon which spirit , faith , and election are grounded , and by which they are knowne . Hence then appeares the Circle betweene election and scripture ; whether shal be first knowne , and be as the meanes to know the other . Shall Election ? That cannot be , because it must be knowne by fayth ; fayth by the spirit ; and the spirit by scripture ; then scripture should be first knowne . Shall scripture be first knowne ? That it cannot be , because the vnderstanding of scripture depends vpon the spirit , the spirit vpon fayth , and fayth vpon election ; therfore election must be first known . Scripture therefore must be first knowne , as the meanes to know the spirit , fayth , and election ; and election must be first knowne as the ground of all fayth , spirit , and scripture . Scripture therefore must proue election , as the meanes to know it ; and election must proue scripture , as the ground of the true vnderstanding of it : as the premisses must proue the conclusion , and the conclusion the premisses ; as Maximilla did proue Montanus , & Montanus Maximilla to be Prophets ; as Manes did proue his fundamentall Epistle to be Apostolicall , and the Epistle him to be an Apostle . Scripture therefore must be first knowne before election , and election must be first knowne before scripture , both first knowne , and both meanes to know first ech other . If both be first , which shal be last ? If both go before , which shall follow after ? Let any Protestāt by his spirit vnfold this ridle , solue the argument , & so leaue leape out of the Circle . And thus much of the third Circle , and circular manner of proceeding betweene election and scripture . SVBDIV. 4. The Circle betweene the Spirit of euery man , and a generall Councell . FOVRTHLY , one Circle more , which I obserued out of Caluin in his Commentaries vpon S. Iohn vpon these wordes Try spirits , I cannot omit , because it is notorious and important , as being betweene spirit and spirit , that is , betweene the spirit of euery priuate person , and the spirit of a generall Councell : and with it I will close vp this Chapter of circular absurdities . Caluin in the foresaid place affirmes , 1. though against himselfe , and his owne fellow Sectaries , That many false Doctours do belye , and counterfeit the title of the spirit . That , Mad men ryse vp who rashly brag that they are endewed with the spirit . That , They are fooles who amazed at the empty sound of an honourable title of the spirit , dare not inquire after the matter it selfe . That , Many boast of the spirit , yet do come in their owne priuate name , and do speake out of their owne proper sense and meaning . All which is true , but proper to the Protestants . 2. He sayth , Because of these so many false and counterfeit spirits , he enquires how we shal proue , and try these spirits ? To which he answers , that they who assigne the word of God as the meane and rule to discerne these spirits , Neque nihil , neque totum dicunt , say somewhat , but not all . For except ( sayth he ) we haue the spirit of prudence , it will little or nothing auaile to haue the VVord on our fingers end , whose interpretation or sense is not certaine to vs. Therefore according to Caluin , the scripture alone is not the complete rule or meanes to try spirits . What then ? 3. Therefore he sayth : Euery priuate man hath power and freedome to iudge of spirits , that is , euery faythfull . The faythfull therefore by their priuate spirit shall try and iudge of spirits . But heere he obiects , if so , then there will be no certainty of fayth , but all Religion will perish , because there are so many mad spirits which brag of themselues that they are the spirit of God , that , Quot , capita tot sensus , how many men so many opinions . What then must be the remedy ? 4. Therefore he admits , that the publike iudgment of the Church , and the determination of an holy Councell , is necessary to suppresse mad spirits , and to settle vnity . This is well ; for so haue Coūcells some authority : but how farre shall al men , and their priuate spirits be obliged to rely themselues , and rest their iudgment vpon this determination of the Councell ? Shall there be a pause , and rest of triall , and all spirit heere rest , and be silent ? No surely , that he will not adm●t . Wherefore 5. he addes , and concludes ( in which he ouerthrows all ) that God will not haue vs tyed to the decrees of euery Councell , though holy and pious , because ( sayth he ) it may be they did not call rightly vpon God , & it is certaine that they for the most haue erred . What then ? Heere must be an examen of the Councell , that the spirit of it may be tryed . The Councell therefore which was made iudge , must againe be iudged : but by whom ? By euery faythfull man who by his priuate spirit hath , as before , power and liberty to try all spirits , euen of Councels ; and to call ( as he sayth in another place ) in question all spirits of all Prelates , Bishops , and Councels to the rule of gods word . Loe heere his circular vaine & deluding manner of proceeding . There are many mad and bragging spirits ; it is true . These spirits must be tried : it is true . The Councell is the fittest , and surest meanes to try them ; it is true . But what ? Shall this Councell which hath power to try & iudge of these spirits , be againe tryed and iudged by euery one of these spirits , which will ( as all will ) Iudge it selfe the spirit of Prudence ? According to Caluin it must . Then which , what is more fond or friuolous ? What more circular and endlesse ? That which tryes shall by the same be tried againe . He that did iudge shall , by him whome he iudges , be iudged againe . The Councell shall try and iudge euery priuate spirit , and euery spirit shall try and iudge againe the Councell . And why ? Because forsooth , it may be doubted whether the Councell did rightly call vpon God. As though forsooth , the same may not as well , and much more , be doubted of these priuate spirits ? Among which are so many mad , foolish , and bragging spirits which need a tryall , and that by a Councell , as is graūted . Surely if this be admitted , then are tryalls endlesse , and circles will runne on forward & backward in infinitum . The Councell shall iudge the spirit , and the spirit shall iudge the Councell againe , and the Councell it againe ; and so againe and againe without end , one shall iudge and re-iudge another . If this be not a Circle , what is ? If this be not a worke endlesse and infinite , what can bee ? If this be not a meere illusion , and deluding of man , and a ground groundlesse , a question endlesse , a Circle infinite , & a proceeding vaine and senselesse , ( in which yet the Protestants proceed in their grounds of Fayth ) I will refer it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader : and so conclude that the Protestāts run in a round of Circles , prouing one thing by another , and this other by the same ; and that in the first grounds & principles of their Fayth and saluation . THE PRIVATE SPIRITS AVTHORITY To iudge of Controuersies of Fayth , confuted by Doctrinall absurdities following vpon it , against Fayth . CHAP. IX . Idolatry and Heresy compared ; and of foure heads and origens of all late heresies proceeding of the priuate Spirit . SECT . I. IN the last Chapter we haue shewed the Circular absurdities which do follow vpon this priuate Spirit , in the proofe of Protestants groundes of their Fayth and saluation . In this we are to proceed to the Doctrinall absurdityes , which follow vpon the same against all faith , piety , and reason . Wherein first we will lay downe the principall points of the Protestant fayth , and the consequences ensuing vpon it ; and afterwardes we will shew what absurdityes do follow , first in generall , out of the same heades and doctrine ; next what in particuler do follow , 1. Against the articles of the Creed , and all fayth . 2. Against the petitions of the Pater noster , and all hope and prayers . 3. Against the ten Commandements , & all morall vertue & good life . And lastly by comparing the Catholicke and Protestant doctrine togeather , we wil shew how the one doth giue all honour and glory to God , to Christ , to his Saints , his Church , his Sacraments , his law , his grace , and to man also : and that the other doth as much derogate and take away all honour , and giue all dishonour to the same . Which , that we may the better vnderstand , we may cōceaue how the Diuell ( that Rebell against God , and the enemy of man ) as he labours by all meanes to auert man frō the loue of God , and to conuert him to the loue of the creature : so his chiefe desire is to depriue God of his honour due to him , and to deriue the same to his creatures , thereby to draw man to an affectation of Deity , to rob God of his honour , and to giue it to man. Thus in paradise he perswaded our first Parents , that they should be as Gods , as himselfe had before in heauen attempted to be like to the highest . For this end this Pluto or Lucifer , of his Proserpina , that is , Infidelity his spouse , begat two daughters ; the first and eldest is Idolatry , the next and second , Heresy . Idolatry he begat in the law of Nature , which raigned long , from soone after Adam vntill some yeares after Christ . Heresy he begat in the law of Grace , which presently after Christ rebelled and sought to tyranyze against Christs Church . Idolatry insteed of one God made many , and the true honour of one God diuided to many false Gods. Heresy , insteed of one fayth , introduceth many false opinions , & diuides the vnity of Christs Church in many sects . Idolatry , was ingendred , as snakes of dunge , out of the corruption of vertue and piety , and out of the increase of lust , ambition , and cruelty . Heresy , in like manner sprung vp out of disobedience , pride , and lust , & being like ( as one egge is to another ) to Idolatry , of one Viper begat another ; of one Heresy , many , till at length a whole brood and sinke full of viperous Heresies , burst out and infected a great part of the Christian world . When therefore , by the light of iustice Christ Iesus , Idolatry the elder sister , & with her the long night of Pagan darknesse was expelled ( according to that of Apollo , Me puer Hebraeus diuos Deus ipse gubernans , cedere sede iubet tristemue redire sub arc●m ) and the true light of Christian verity & piety shined in the Church of Christ , then began the second sister Heresy , as an obscure mist , to couer the sunne of true fayth , and to bring in a new darkenes of nouell and erroneous opinions into the Church of God. And as Heresy is a kind of idolatry , both being vipers of one venter , or rather idolatry it selfe ( for so do S. Cyprian , Tertullian , Hierome , Augustine , and other Fathers expresly tearme it , because not only the authour , but the worke being all one and the same , Heresy doth frame out of mans braine a new Idoll of false opinions , and proposes them as diuine reuelations from God , whereby it either detracts from Christ and his truth , which is simple , totall , and indiuisible , some point of verity ; or els addes to the same some falsity , in the same manner as Idolatry takes from God his true deity , and honour due only to him , and giues the same to man to whom no deity or Godhead is due ) so this heresy , following the stepps of Idolatry , hath in this our late age made the same manner of beginning & progresse as Idolatry did in the first age . Wherefore it will not be amisse to obserue the manner , and to compare the progresse and fruit of both . First therefore Idolatry , the first borne of Satans imps , & the greatest enemy of God , hauing raised vpon earth a generall commotion and rebellion against the only true God and Lord of heauen and earth , and wrought in man a conceit of deity and an affectation of the diuine excellency , thereby to depriue God of his only and all due honour , and to deriue the same vnto man his creature and vassall , did first feine in the mindes of men an imagination , that before the world was made , all was a Chaos ; that this Chaos made to it selfe finem & fundum , a depth & a bottome , like an egge , which being sitten and hatched , brought forth a man-woman called Planeta ; this man woman broughr forth substance , motion , and generation ; of these was begot Caelum and Terra , Heauen and Earth . Heauen begat six men called Titans , that is , Oceanus , Ceus , Tyus , Hyperion , Iapetus , and Cronus who was Saturne . The earth begat six women , Thya , Rhea , Themis , Mnemosyna , Thetis , and Hebe , which marrying one to another , of Saturne and Rhea were borne Pluto , Neptune , and Iupiter . Saturne receauing from some Oracle , that he should be expulsed by his sonnes , deuoured Pluto and Neptune , & intended to haue done the like to all his male children , but Rhea to saue Iupiter , gaue a stone insteed of the child , to be eaten by Saturne , which stone being deuoured thrust out of Saturns belly Pluto & Neptune , the one into Hell , the other into the Sea , wherby they were made Gods , Pluto of Hell , and Neptune of the Sea , and Iupiter being sent by Rhea his mother to Heauen , was made the God of heauen . Thus were Saturne and Rhea made parents of Gods , and Iupiter the chiefe God ; this Iupiter was notorious , first for cruelty , for he not only killed his Vncles the Titans , and deuoured his daughter Medea , and tormented his sonnes Tantalus and Titius , but also butchered and tormented his owne Father Saturne ; secondly , for lust , he passed so farre , that by incest of his owne sisters Iuno and Ceres , he begot of Iuno , Vulcan the God of Smithes , and of Ceres , Proserpina the Queene of Hell , as likewise out of his owne braine he begat Minerua , and out of his thigh Bacchus . Also by adultery of other mens wiues , he begat Mercury of Maie the wife of Atlant , Apollo , and Diana of Latona the wife of Cea ; the graces Thalia , Euphrosine , and Aglia of Hermion the wife of Cleanus ; Eudimion of Phenissa the wife of Alphion ; Musaeus of Helena the wife of Pandion , with many others . Not thus content he transformed himselfe into diuers shapes , as of an husband , and begat of Alcmena , Hercules ; and of Cassiopeia , Andromedes ; of a Sheepheard , and begat of Mnemosyna the nine Muses ; of a Satyre , and begat of Anthiope , Amphion & Zetas ; of an Eagle , and begat of Egina , Eacus ; of a Vulture , and begat of a Nymphe the Palisci in Sicily ; of a Swanne , & begat of Hellen , Leda , and of a Goose , Nemesis ; like a Bull , he begat of Europa Minous , Rhadamantus & Sarpedon ; like a Beare , he begat of Mantea Arctos ; and like a pismire Mirmedon of Euradremusa ; being also transformed and shewing himselfe as a starre he begat Castor and Pollux of Leda ; as Gold , Perseus of Danae ; as a Shower of raine , Ganean of Manta . Thus a man as wicked as great , was made the greatest God , & his chiefe actions of wickednes , cruelty , parricide , incest , adultery & fraud , were deifyed for diuine . And as the God Iupiter , so also the other Gods begat younge Gods , and made them like themselues Gods ; thus Neptune of a Sea-nimph begat Tritō , of Amphitrite the Cyclopes , Brontes , Sterape , & Pyracmon . Thus Venus had by Vulcane , Cupid ; by Bacchus , Priapis . Thus Mars begat Cygnus , Apollo , Phaeton &c. And so the Gods begat so thicke and so fast young Gods , that the number of the Gods increased , according to Varro to the number of thirty thousand , according to others , to many more , yea to an infinite number . For when thus Idolatry had once taken roote in mēs imaginatiō , it grew vp to that height that it made Gods some greater , some lesser , some of men , some of women ; as of the greater Gods of men , Mercury , Mars , Neptune , Saturne , Ioue , Vulcan , Apollo . Of women , Iuno , Vesta , Venus , Ceres , Minerua , Diana : as of the lesser Gods , Bacchus , Eolus , Hercules , were men-gods ; & Thetis , Aurora , Bellona women goddesses . And it made Gods and adored with diuine honour , not only good men , but bad also , and them for their bad actions , as Iupiter for his former vices , Saturne for parricide , Mars for cruelty , Mercury for fraud , Venus for lust , Iuno for enuy , and dedicated to them , in signe of diuine honour , certaine Creatures , as to Iupiter a Goat , to Diana a Hart , to Ammon a Ramme , to Ceres Corne , to Bacchus Wine , to Vulcane Fire , to Osiris Water , and to others a fish &c. from which creatures in honour to them , they did either alwayes , or at certaine tymes abstaine . Likewise they honoured their sepulchers , as the monuments of Gods , as the Syrians did that of Adonis , the Aegyptians that of Osyris ▪ the Troians of Hector , the Lenconissi of Achilles , the people of Pontus that of Patroclus , and the people of Rodes that of Alexander the Great . Thus did Idolatry deify bad men and women , and for their bad actions make them Gods , and giue them diuine honour : thus it made Gods some common for all , some speciall for particular actions , and occasions . Of the speciall Gods it made Esculapius a God of the sicke , Februa a goddesse for agues , Pauor a God for courage , Bacchus for drunkenes , Siluanus against dangers in sports , Meretrix for harlots , Fessoria for trauellers , Fortuna for good lucke , Simula for good memory , Quies for rest , Murcia for fatnes , Genouia against slouth , Thetrica for actions and comedies , Esculanus for gold & siluer , Pecunia for mettals , Iugatinus against thunder , Tutellina against haile , Flora against frost , Rubigo against wormes and locusts , Agrestis for the fields , Pelonius against the enimies of the earth , Spinenis against weeds in corne , Segetius for sowing corne , Matura for ripening corne , Ruana for reaping corne , Belus for warre , Victoria for victory , Honorius for Inne-keepers , Lamentina for dore-hammers , Cadrea for dore barres and hinges , Cloatina for the priuies . And which is most to be admired , this Idolatry so far deluded the wise & valiant Romans , that it perswaded them to build temples & offer sacrifice to these Gods and goddesses for any commodity or necessity , as to Volumnus & Volumna for espoused persons , to Cantius for wise children , to Lucina for safe child-bearing , to Opis for the child new borne , to Vaginatus to keepe it from crying , to Ganinus for safety of it in the cradle , to Runinus for good sucking and nursing , to Stellius to preserue it from lamenesse , to Adeon that it might loue the mother , to Mentalis that it might be witty and studious , and to Berecinthea the mother of all these Gods. And one of the Romans a Philosopher most famous in Camillus time among thē for his piety & temperance ( for it is said of him that for sixty yeares ( he liued 113. ) he neuer went out of the walles of Rome , neuer was heard speake idle word , neuer spent idle hower , neuer had contention with any , neuer was noted of any publicke crime ) by name Bruxellus did so increase and multiply the number of the Gods in the citty of Rome , that whereas he found only fiue Gods receaued ●mong them , that is , Iupiter , Mars , Ianus , Berecinthea , & Vesta , he left among them 2800. as many as there were families . Thus did Gods multiply and increase among that warlike people , euery family hauing a speciall God , and many still new Gods vpon any new occasion . Neither did this Idolatry thus rest , but proceeded on further , first to deify and make Gods of the passions of men , as of Ira , Fuga , and Voluptas , which they adored ; next to giue diuine honour to beasts , yea and to sensles creatures : thus did whole nations worship for Gods the Philistines Dagon a fish , the Egiptians Apis an oxe , the Babilonians a dragon and golden statua , the Israelites a golden calfe and a brasen serpent , the Persians the Sunne , the Acacians the Moone , to which they offered sacrifice in like manner , as the Romans did to Iupiter , the Grecians to Iuno , the Africans to Mars , the Macedonians to Mercury , the Corinthians to Apollo , the Armenians to Bacchus , the Ephesians to Diana . Quis furor est , quae tanta animas daementia cepit , Vt volucrem , turpemue bouem , toruumue Draconem , Semi-hominemue Canem , supplex homo pronus adoret ? sayth Sedulius . Thus did others for want of greater , adore as Gods , some ( as the Chaldeans ) the planets of Saturne , Iupiter , Mars Sol , Venus and Mercury ; others ( as the Grecians ) Oceanus of the sea , Stix & Acaron of riuers : others ( as the Egyptians ) Eolus of the winds , Herbes in the garden , as of Leekes , Garlike and Onions , yea saith one , the basest wind , Crepitus ventris . Felices gentes quibus hac nascuntur in hortis . Numina . — saith Iuuenall of the Egiptians . Of diuers of which in holy scripture mention is made , as of (a) Asteroth the goddesse of the Sidonians , of (b) Baal the God of the Samaritans , of (c) Belphegor the God of the Moubites , of (d) Beelzebub of Acaron , of (e) Chamos the God of the Moabites , (f) Rhemnon of the Syrians , of (g) Norgal of the Cutheans , (h) Micha in mount Ephraim , (i) Priapus the God of Maaca the Mother of Asa , (k) Hercules the God of the Tirians , (l) Adonis of the Israelites which many others . In al which this Idolatry , as we see , ouerflowed so farre the bankes of all reason and religion , that hauing once made a breach , and robbed God of his honour , it bestowed the same vpon the vilest & meanest sort of creatures , and that so vnreasonably and senslesly that it is a wonder , how men of reason could be so void of reason as to beleeue , professe and follow it . This was the proceeding of Idolatry . Heresy in like manner , as the second impe of Sathan which succeeded Idolatry , and was raysed of her ashes and corruption , that it might the better sow the seed of infidelity , and roote it selfe stronger in worldly and carnall affections , did in imitation of her elder sister Idolatry , seeke to rob Christ Iesus of the verity of his diuine reuelations , and his spouse the Church of the sincerity of true fayth and Religion , and transferred the same vnto erroneous and hereticall falsities . For which it inuented and framed in mens conceits an opinion of a priuate spirit which it made the mother and deuiser of all errours and heresies ; of which as in the primitiue ages of Christs Church it begat in the braine of Manes , Marcion , Sabellius , Arius , Macedonius , Nestorius , Eutiches and others the wicked errours against the B. Trinity , of one God & three Persons in the Deity , against the sacred Incarnatiō of one person , and two natures in the person of our B. Sauiour Christ , by which , as by so many bastardes of impiety , such an infinit brood of heresyes haue since that tyme beene ingēdred in the Christian world , that the increase of thē hath filled , or rather defiled a great part of the East Church both in Asia & Africke , and left behind them the stincke of no fewer then 300. rotten heresies , and hereticall opinions : So also in this last age of Christ it begat in the braines of an Apostata Frier Martin Luther , which it coupled with a like Apostata Nunne , and of other Apostataes , Bucer , Martyr , Bale , Knox &c. whome it wi●ed in like incestuous bed of double Apostacy , and of all sort of impurity , such a number of brats or rather vipers of hereticall opinions , and errours , as neither the number of them can be recounted ( of which some haue found out 300. and more ) nor can the mischiefe of dissention and cruelty be conceaued , with which they haue pestered the most florishing Kingdomes of Europe , and brought in an horrible confusion and desolation in place of former piety and religion . In which we may obserue , that as Idolatry made Chaos , or confusion the mother of all ; so hath Heresy made the priuate spirit ( which is nothing but a Chaos , or confused conceit which euery one hath of his owne opinion ) the mother and conceauer of all hereticall opinions . As Idolatry diuised that out of Planeta the Man-woman , or fruit of Chaos , issued Heauē and Earth , and of them so many Gods & Goddesses ; so hath Heresy caused , that out of the commixtion of a Friars and Nuns concupiscence , such a number of hereticall opinions , and wicked practises should receaue their origen and progresse . As the Pagans made Iupiter , a man of life most wicked and exercised in all practise of cruelty , and incestuous carnality , a God , and the chiefest among the Gods ; so do the Protestants canonize Luther , a man of a most carnall , proud and enuious both disposition & course of life , as an Apostle , an Euangelist , a Prophet , and a man of God. As Saturne the false God by Idolatry was made the Father of many Gods , chiefly of three , Iupiter , Neptune , and Pluto , who also begat many petty Gods , and filled the world with many innumerable false Gods , whereby adoration was giuen euen first to men , then to the basest and meanest creatures : so Luther the false Apostle and Prophet , by the instigation of his priuate spirit , did beget and deuise foure most monstruous imps of hereticall doctrine and impiety , out of which as so many vipers , such a number of erroneous and wicked opinions haue flowed , that the light of true fayth and Religion hath beene obscured , and the beauty and splendor thereof hath beene attributed to most false errours & fond heresyes . And thus hath Heresy succeeded and imitated her elder sister Idolatry . Now these foure heades or principall heresies , which the priuate spirit , the eldest daughter of Heresy , did beget in Luther , and his followers braines , and out of which as sequels issued such a number of falsities and heresies , are these . The first is , that the Church and Bishop of Rome is fallen from being the spouse of Christ , to be the very Antichrist himselfe , as wholy opposite to Christ , and corrupted with all abominable errours of idolatry and superstition , out of which haue issued these and such like brats of heresy , that therefore the visible and knowne Church was latent , inuisible and not extant for many ages , and that true fayth and doctrine was banished from the same visible Church , which was only the Roman Church , and that for many ages , some of them say six , some ten , some twelue , some fourteen ages , euen since the Apostles tyme , all which tyme , truth lay smothered , ouerwhelmed and buried in the dregges of Antichristian errour , superstition , and idolatry . That all the Councels Prouinciall or Generall , were the assemblies of Antichrist . All the Fathers , and Doctours were deceaued and subiected to Antichrist . All the Christian people , Princes , or Prelates , liued in the externall obedience of Antichrist . That no lawfull mission or vocation , no right ordination or consecration , no continuall succession or deriuation of Pastours was for all this tyme to be found in the Church . That no preaching of the word of God , no administration of Sacraments , no offering of sacrifice , no saying of seruice , no discipline of Church orders and gouernment , was holy and lawfull for so many ages , till God extraordinarily raysed vp Martin Luther , and by his spirit reformed all . Whereupon , since that tyme hath ensued , as the fruits of the wombe of this priuate spirit , and new doctrine , all neglect and contempt of Church orders , lawes , or obseruances , as of Masse , and Mattins , of fasting , and festiuall dayes , of single life and chastity , of obedience , and pouerty , of pennance , and mortification , of confession , and satisfaction , of benedictions , and peregrinations , and of all Workes of austerity , piety , and deuotion . Hence hath ensued all rapine , & robing of Churches , Church-goods , and Church-ornaments , all destruction of Monasteries , and Religious houses , all prophanation of holy thinges , all cruelty against Priests , & Religious men , all incestuous and sacrilegious lewdnesse against vowed persons , all rebellion against Princes for Religion , all contempt of them , and their lawes as not obliging in conscience , and all liberty of life and manners , to practise whatsoeuer profit , or pleasure proposed as most plausible to euery mans humour , and disposition . The second and next ofspring of this spirit was Iustification by only fayth in which as they all agree in generall ; so it hath beene the mother of many notorious new impietyes , from whence , as out of a Troian-horse , issued these and such like prophane paradoxes ; as that this fayth is a sole fayth , not informed with charity or good workes , (a) a speciall fayth , assuring certainty of saluation , a perpetuall faith neuer lost , a rare fayth giuen only to the Elect , a fayth couering , not curing sinnes , imputing , not making vs iust , apprehending , not possessing the iustice of Christ . A faith that admits no good workes , no merit , no profit , no necessity , yea no possibility either of being iustifyed by any , or of hauing power to do any good workes at all ; because all works , euen the best workes of the best men , are sinnes , and that mortall , deseruing eternall damnation , though by fayth not imputed to the elect . Hence it is , that the keeping of the law is impossible , that no lawes oblige in conscience , that grace is not sufficient , that man hath no free-will , and cannot but sinne and offend , that Sacraments are not instrumēts and meanes , but seales and signes of this iustice , and iustification by fayth ; that Baptisme is to be giuē only to the faithfull , and children of the faythful , that the Eucharist is a signe or figure of Christs body , receaued only by the faythfull , & Elect. With many such like , which hang vpon the former principle . The third , and next borne impe of this spirit , is the doctrine of Originall sinne , which against the Pelagians , Luther admitting , did yet , against the Catholike Church , maintaine to be naturall Concupiscence , which in the state of corrupt nature remaining in man , is very Originall sinne it selfe . This Originall sinne , say they , doth corrupt and infect the whole man , and all , and euery action in man proceeding from it with sinne , doth cause that a man in all , euen in his best actions doth sinne , and can do nothing but sinne ; and so can neither merit by any good worke , nor satisfy for any sinne , doth hinder all internall grace , and iustification , which should abolish sinne , & doth take away all ability of free-will , all possibility of keeping the Commandements , or so much as any one of them ; all obligation to performe any precept of the loue of God , or man , morall or diuine ; and so all endeauour and labour to do pennance , to seeke perfection , to take vp the crosse of Christ , and mortify our passions , and follow him , as being needlesse , fruitlesse , and impossible by the infection of this concupiscence , which they make to be originall sinne . The last and youngest bastard-brood of this spirit , is the doctrine of predestination , of which though Luther layd the egge ; yet because Caluin did hatch the brood , & maintaine aboue any other before him , it is imputed to him as the first hatcher of it , and as his bastard , is by many Lutherans and Arminians reiected . The doctrine of which is this , that God out of his absolute and irrespectiue will , as he predestinated , ordained , and created some to saluation , so by the same will he like wise predestinated , ordained , and created others to damnation ; the one because it was his will that they should be saued ; the other meerely because it was his will ( without any fault , sinne , or demerit in them foreseene ) that they should be damned . To which damnation that he might bring them , he did for that end create them , and ordained that first Adam , then all his posterity should sinne , that for this sinne he might execute his sentence of damnation ; for which end he did cause Sathan to tempt them to sinne , to moue and force them to sinne , yea did himselfe take from them all liberty not to sinne , and worke in them immediatly by his operation all their sinne , and obdurate them in that sinne ; and for that end that they should haue no remedy or help against sinne , he denyed them the benefit of the death of Christ , and his merits , the benefit of vocation to grace , of sufficiency of grace , of iustification by grace , or of glorification by the meanes of grace , to all those whome he had thus appointed to damnation , and to sinne . On the contrary , to them whome he had ordained to be saued , he ordayned likewise the death & Passion of Christ as a meane for that end to them only , and by it gaue effectuall vocation , sanctification , and glorification to them only , and of these only ( who are his only children ) he maks his Church . To these only , let them do what they will , he imputes no sinne , but couers all their sinnes with the cloake of the iustice of Christ , accounts them iust , and notwithstanding all their sinnes , loues them as his children , esteemes them as his darlinges , and enthrones them as heires in his Kingdome of heauen , among his Saints and Angels . All which and such like opinions in number infinit , and in impiety horrible , as so many swarmes of locusts and gnates , engendred out of the corruption of all good christianity , and conceaued in the wombe of double Apostacy , and sacriledge between a Frier and a Nunne , by the heat and smoke of this fiery spirit of frensy , haue as so many clouds shaddowed the light of true Fayth , as so many Foxes deuoured the Lambes of Christs sheepfould , as so many rootes of ill weedes ouergrowne and choaked the haruest of Christs fields , and as so many vipers poysoned the soules of an infinit number of Christians : Whereby is left nothing , but ruine and vastation of all ancient monuments of piety , nothing but horrour , and confusion in all discipline , and orders of Religion , nothing but impiety and desolation of all Fayth and beliefe in many flourishing kingdomes of Christianity . Of which as any one in former ages would haue sufficed , as a plague , to haue infected any Country with heresy ; so al of them compiled in one bundell , can bring no lesse then a general mortality of all goodnes in so many Countrys infected by thē . Of absurdities which follow vpon the first head , of contempt of all Church-authority , and relying vpon the priuate spirit . SECT . II. BVT let vs proceed and consider in particuler what fruits and consequences , and what absurdities , contrary to all reason , honesty , and piety do flow , and follow out of these principles & positions . And first to begin with their first principle , and the issue following from it , which is their contempt of Church-authority , their condemning the Roman Church , as Antichristian , and theit bold affirming the true Church of Christ , for so many ages , to haue decayed , & perished , and to haue beene inuisible not knowne , & wholy ouerwhelmed with errours of superstition , idolatry , & Antichristianity , 1. It followes that for so many ages , that is , 8.10.12 . or 14. as before , was neither true Church or congregation , neither lawfull Pastours and Preachers , neither right Sacramēts or Sacrifice , neither any diuine seruice or worship of God among any visible company of people in any part of the Christian world . 2. It followes , that in all those ages , all the Fathers and Doctours , all the Bishops & Prelates , all the Confessours , Virgins , and Martyrs , and all the Councels generall or prouinciall : that all the foure Doctours of the Latin Church , and the rest with them , al the Doctours of the East Church , & all the learned among thē , all ancient Bishops of the Primitiue church , & al the Cleargy vnder them , all the foure first generall Councels , and the other twelue after them , with the prouinciall Councels confirmed by them , & the Bishops , and Confessours in them ; that all the Holy Virgins , Confessours and Martyrs in tyme of most of the ten persecutions , and of the Arian , and image-breaking Emperours ; that all the Emperours of Rome , Constantinople , or Germany , of the East or West , all the Kinges of Italy , Spaine , France , England , Scotland , Swethland , Denmarke , or Poland , all and euery one , who before Luther were Christians , and professed the christian Religion ; that all these with the people , who professed the same Christianity with them , & vnder them , were all seduced by a false fayth , and false Christianity , and all liued and dyed in the seruice , not of Christ , but Antichrist . Into what heart of any Christian can it enter , that for so many ages , no Doctour with his penne , no Prelate out of the pulpit , no Cōfessour in prison , no Martyr at his death , no Councell by their decrees , no Emperour with his sword , no people , or Pastour in any parish should haue publikly professed ▪ maintayned , and confirmed the true fayth of Christ , and true doctrine of saluation , but all of Antichrist and damnation . Thirdly , it follows that all the predictions , and prophecies of the prophets before Christ , all the promises and assurances made by Christ himselfe , or by his Apostles to his Church , either of the extension , and amplitude of Christes Church from sea to sea , from North to South , to the vttermost end of the world , to all people and nations , to all Iles and Kingdomes , to all Kinges and Princes , or of continuance & succession of the same as long as the Sunne & Moon shall endure , from Sabaoth to Sabaoth , from age to age , frō generation to generation without interruption , or discontinuance from that tyme till the worlds end ; or of the Holy Ghosts assistance , and continuance with it , as the Pillar , and ground of truth against all the waues and stormes of the sea of this world , against all the swordes and violence of persecutors and Tyrants , and against all principalities and powers the gouernours of this darknesse , and the very gates of hell it selfe : It followes , I say , that all these predictions haue beene false , and not verifyed , as Castalion , and Dauid George both Protestants , conuinced by experience of the not being of a Protestant Church , haue confessed ; it followes that the Prophets of the old Testament who foretould them , were false , not true Prophets , that the Apostles of the new Testament who confirmed them , were vnlawfull and faythlesse messengers , and that Iesus Christ who planted , watered , & promised to giue increase to this his Church , was not the only true omnipotent God , but either a false deceauer , who promised that he knew should not be performed , or els a weake worker , who could not performe that which he had promised , to wit , this amplitude , succession , and firmity of his Church , thus wholy frustrated and made void , according to the former principle and doctrine . All which is wikedly confessed vpon the former groundes by Dauid George , Ochinus , and others . Fourthly it followes , that Turkes , Iewes , and Gentils haue had a more flourishing state of a Church , Kingdome , and Professours , as hauing beene more visible , potent , and dilated , for many continued ages , in many distant partes of the world , then the christians , who haue had neither Prince , Prelate , people , or scarce any publike Professours of true Christianity , for one age together , vnder any one King , in any one prouince of the world . That Mahomet , and Antichrist or the diuel by them , did with more prudence , and power with more piety , and policy , establish , enlarge , & protect their faith and common wealth which so long continued , then Iesus Christ , who is true God and man , did , or could do his faith and Church , which so soone after his departure erred , failed , and decayed . Where is the greater glory of the second temple , (a) then of the first ? Where is the (b) ends of the earth giuen to it for a possession ? Where are the (c) Kings and Queenes who as nursing fathers , are to haue protected it ? Where are the people and nations , who with the (d) gold of Arabia and Saba were to haue inriched it ? Where are the Iles , and kingdomes who from the vttermost (e) ends of the world were to haue waited vpon this Church of Christ , more then any other of Iews , Turks , or Pagans ? What , was Christ lesse true , lesse good , lesse faythfull , lesse able and potent , in the establishing , and preseruing his kindgome , then were Moyses , or Mahomet , Cyrus , or Romulus in setling and enlarging their Synagogue , Sect , or Common-wealth ? Surely it followes ( O horrour and blasphemy ) if these positions , and points of the Protestants priuate spirits doctrine , were true and warrantable . Of absurdities which follow vpon the second head of sole Fayth . SECT . III. SECONDLY , Out of the second principle , and doctrine depending on it ( which is that a man is iustified by only faith , which is a faith , speciall of euery one 's owne predestination , iustification , and glorification ; so certaine , and so sure as that there is a God , or that Christ is saued ; so perpetuall , that it can neuer be lost , and peculiar only to the elect , depending vpon their priuat spirit , and the rest before mentioned ) it followes , First . That a man is not only without all doubt , or so much as any feare , certaine of his predestination past , iustification present , and glorification to come , but also that he is more certaine of it then he is of the B. Trinity , of the Incarnation , Passion , Resurrection , ascension , and coming of Christ ; which he belieues only by a faith not supernaturall , and diuine , but historicall , generall , and common , as they say , to the reprobate and diuels ; yea more certaine , then Iesus-Christ was of his saluation , whom they affirme to haue feared , doubted , distrusted , and despaired , before his death of his saluation , as is afterward shewed . Yea as certaine must they be , as certaine they are that God is one God , or that Iesus Christ is in heauen or , as if Iesus Christ were present , and so told them ; which are their owne words , and comparisons , which is both absurd and impious : absurd , because they haue scripture to auouch the being of one God , and the saluation of Christ ; but which auouches to euery mā this his saluatiō in particular they haue neither scripture nor reason : Impious , because what greater impiety , and blasphemy can be conceaued , then to make Christ , God and man , doubtfull of his saluation , and themselues , sinfull and wicked wretches , certaine of theirs ? Secondly it followes , that euery Protestant may , and must by faith belieue as certaine , that , of which neither authority of scripture , testimony of Church , or euidence of reason doth yield any argument of certainty ; but only his owne priuate spirit and conceit doth suggest , and perswade this certainty of euery one his owne iustification and saluation ; and yet that the same Protestants may doubt , yea refuse to assent and belieue such articles of faith , as both expresse authority of Scripture , euident proposition of Church and confessed testimony of auncient tradition , Fathers , and Councels doth fully and frequently deliuer and approue : such are many articles now in controuersy , as Freewill , merit , good works , reall presence , prayer to saints , for the dead , and such like . All which , for example , Caluin and euery Protestant do as firmly ( notwithstanding all the former confessed testimonies ) reiect and condemne , as they belieue the certainty of their owne saluation , which ( notwithstanding that it be not mentioned or motioned in particular , in any such , or the former testimonyes ) they do most vndoubtedly and firmely apprehend and belieue . In which among all absurdities what can be more absurd then without any other reason or testimony , but ones owne conceit , so firmely to adhere to a thing of importance , so vncertaine both in it selfe , and in experience ; and yet not belieue many thinges in themselues so probable , and so mainly by so many testimonies confirmed and approued ? Which what is it els , but to belieue what euery one will , and best likes , & to reiect what he will not belieue , or doth dislike him ; and so to make euery one 's owne will , conceit , or affection the rule of his fayth and beliefe . Thirdly , it followes , that euery Protestant is not only as sure of his own saluation , as he is of Christs , & that he cānot be damned except Christ be damned , which (a) Luther , (b) Caluin , & (c) Zuinglius expresly , though absurdly , hold : but also that he is as iust & holy , as any Confessour , Martyr , Apostle , or the Mother of God , yea euen as Iesus Christ himself . For sith all are iust , according to them , not by any iustice internall and inherent in the soule ; but externall and imputed by Fayth ( which fayth , apprehending the iustice of Christ which was in him , makes it the iustice of euery one in particuler , for which he is accounted iust ) it followes that this iustice of Christ which is equally imputed to all the iust , doth equally couer all sins , maks equally iust all persons , yea all as iust as Iesus Christ , whose iustice is theirs , and with whose iustice they are equally couered , and thereby counted equally iust before God. Whence ensues , that all are as iust at the first instance of their iustification , as Christ was both at first and euer till his ascension , and that they cannot increase in iustice , & be made more iust , and iustified still ; because from the first instant of their iustification they haue all the iustice imputed to them , which Christ had euer inherent till his ascension in him , & are as iust at the first as he euer was at first or last . Which , though absurd , senselesse , and impious , yet it hath not wanted expresse defenders among them , as Luther who affirmed all faythfull to be as iust as Peter , Paul , our B. Lady , and all Saints . As (a) Bucer , who affirmed euery minister to be as iust as was S. Iohn Baptist , then whome was not by the testimony of our Sauiour (b) a greater among the borne of women . And (c) Zuinglius , who affirmes that God fauours no lesse euery faythfull Christian then he doth Christ himselfe , and that euery one hath as great right to heauen , as Christ hath . Fourthly it followes , that not only all faythfull Christians , but that all people , whether good or bad , Iewes o● Gentils , Christians or Pagans , yea all who euer haue liued or euer shall liue in this world , shal be all saued as sure as Christ is saued . This is deduced out of the Protestant doctrine , two wayes ; first out of diuers their positions , which by many of them , chiefly by (d) Caluin , are belieued , and taught , as 1. That only fayth doth iustify , and that it being once had cannot be lost . 2. That this fayth is promised to all faythfull and their seed , as it was to Abraham and his seed , & that therefore all the children of the faythfull are sanctifyed in their Mothers wombe , as being within the Couenant made to their Parents and their seed , as Caluin stifly maintaines . 3. That the Sacraments , and chiefly Baptisme , are seales or signes of fayth , and so are to be ministred only to the faithfull , and the children of the faythfull ; for which Farellus at Geneua refused to baptize a child , whose parents were Papists , and Caluin approued the fact . 4. That therfore the children of the faythfull shal be saued , though they neuer be baptized , as the English Catechisme teachs , because they are borne of faithfull Parents , & so are in the couenāt , and sanctifyed before they be borne . If al this should be true , it would follow that , because the couenant and promise of fayth and saluation was made , for example , to Abraham and his seed , & that because Abraham had fayth , was sealed with the signe of fayth , was iust by Fayth , must continue in fayth , and was saued by fayth , that therefore his seed Ismael , and Isaac ; and as Isaac , so his seed Iacob and Esau ; and as Iacob , so all his seed , all the twelue Patriarches his sonnes , were likewise included in the couenant , were all borne of faythfull parents , all sanctifyed in their Mothers wombe , all sealed as faythfull with the Circumcision , the signe of faith , all made iust by fayth , all continued in the same fayth , and so all saued in heauen by vertue of that fayth . And as they , so their seed , and children , and their childrens children , from generation to generation must be likewise included in the Couenant ; be likewise sanctifyed in their Mothers wombe , be likewise sealed with the signe of the Couenant , or Circumcision ; be likewise iust by fayth , continue iust in fayth , and be likewise saued by fayth . And the same which it inferred of Iacob , and his children , and childrens children vnto the worldes end , may also be inferred and auouched truly either more generally of Adam , and all his posterity , or more particulerly of any one faythfull , and his posterity for euer . For if Adam and Eue , or this particular faythfull person were faythfull , iust , and saued , then their children after them , and their childrens children for euer were likewise faythfull , iust and saued , because as the Parents had the promise of fayth made to themselues , and their children ; so their children were borne sanctifyed of these faythfull parents , were sealed with the signe of fayth , Circumcision or Baptisme ; were made iust , continued iust by fayth , & were saued as iust by fayth ; and as these children , so also all their children and childrens children by the same reason were all included in the couenant or promise of Fayth , were al born sanctifyed by fayth , were all to be sealed with the signe of fayth , were all made iust by fayth , all cōtinued iust by fayth , & so are all saued by fayth ; and so all the posterity of Adam , Nati natorum , & quotquot nascentur abillis , as they were included in the promise of fayth made to their parents and them , and therby were all faithfull , and continued and ended all faythfull , so were they all saued . By which it should follow also not only , that all the whole world should be saued and none damned ; but also that fayth , iustification and saluation should descend by inheritance from generation to generatiō as Landes should by entayle , which cannot by any fine or recouery be cut off , sold , or lost . And as they are all thus faythfull , & iust by fayth apprehending the iustice of Christ , and had the iustice of Christ equally imputed to them for their iustice : so are they all equally iust , as iustifyed by the same iustice of Christ , and all equally iust with Christ , as hauing the same iustice theirs which was Christs ; and so are all iust and perfect as any Saint , or Christ , are all as certaine of saluation as any Saint , or Christ , and shal be all as blessed in heauen as is any Saint or Christ , with whome as they had the same iustice in earth , so for the same they shall haue the like glory in heauen . Which absurdity as of all absurdities it is most absurd , so doth it follow out of the same absurd doctrine . Secondly , the same absurdity is inferred out of another of the Protestants vsually receaued position of doctrine , which is , That euery man shall be saued by only Fayth , and that by a speciall Fayth , by which he is bound infallibly to ▪ belieue that he shal be saued if he wil be saued : out of which their receaued doctrine I reason thus . Whatsoeuer euery man in particuler is bound to belieue as an article of Fayth necessary to his saluation , that is true & certaine , whether he do belieue it or no. But euery man in particular is bound to belieue as an article of his faith necessary to his saluation , according to the Protestants , that he shal be saued . Ergo , That euery man in particuler shal be saued , is true & certaine , according to the Protestants doctrine , whether he belieue it , or no. The Maior proposition is true , and not deniable in any diuinity , because all articles or points of Fayth , which all are bound to belieue as necessary to saluation , and vnder paine of damnation , are most certainly true , & aeternae veritatis antecedenter , and before they be actually belieued , whether they be belieued or not by them , who ought to belieue them . For so , that there is a blessed Trinity of three persons & one God , an Incarnation of the Sonne of God , a Resurrection of the body and the like , is certainely true in it selfe , though the Arians , Nestorians , and other Heretikes doe not belieue it , which yet they are bound to belieue as necessary to saluation . Therefore if euery man be bound in like manner to belieue his owne saluation as certainly , and as neccessarily as he is bound to belieue the B. Trinity , Incarnation , & Resurrection , & that as an article of his fayth ; it followeth that his saluation is as certainly true as his Resurrection whether soeuer he do belieue , or not belieue either , or both of them ; and so it is inferred that he shal be saued , as well as ryse againe , though he do not belieue it : which is confirmed , because the obiect of Fayth , or thing to be belieued hath in it eternall verity , before the act of mans Fayth doe conceaue or belieue it , and therefore is belieued because it is and before was true , but is not made true because it is now belieued ; fayth not making , but supposing his obiect , which as it houlds true in the verity of the Resurrection , Incarnatiō , Trinity and others point of fayth which are belieued , because they are true , & are true whether they be belieued or not ; so it must hould true in the verity of euery mans saluation if it be a point of euery mans fayth . For if the certainty of his owne saluation be the obiect of euery mans fayth which he ought to belieue , then the same certainty or obiect is true before it be belieued ; and so it is true that he shal be saued before he do belieue , and true it is whether he so belieue or no. The Minor Proposition or subsumption that according to the Protestants , euery mā is to belieue his owne Iustificatiō and Saluation , is so certaine that it is their common receaued doctrine , that Only Fayth doth iustify , that this Only Fayth is a Speciall Faith , that this Speciall Fayth hath for his only obiect which it belieues , remission of his sins , his Iustificatiō & saluation by Christ , that this beliefe is a diuine fayth , a sauing fayth , as certaine a fayth , as that by which we belieue that there is a God , a Iesus Christ , a heauen or hel , so certaine that it admits no doubt or vncertainty , but includes an infallible & assured confidence of the promises of God to vs of our saluation . Thus sayth Caluin (a) that Iustifying Faith is a certaine knowledge of Gods fauour to vs ; that (b) euery one must vndoubtedly be sure that God is mercifull vnto him . Beza , (c) that Fayth is not to belieue in God , or in the word of God , which Fayth the Diuells haue ; (d) but a firme perswasion of our election in Christ : A (e) certainty by which we are more certaine then of any thing , that life euerlasting is due to vs. Luther , (f) that Fayth is a constant & firme perswasion without doubt or wauering of Gods grace & good will due to vs ; (g) so certaine , that it is aboue all other certainty . Bucer , (h) that Fayth is nothing but a certaine perswasion of our saluation of Christ . The (i) Confession of Auspurge , of Saxony , Luther , Lobecius , Pareus , Whitaker , Reynoldes , Perkins , That a man is iustifyed by belieuing , and that without wauering or feare of his owne infirmity , that his sinnes ere forgiuen , that he is iust , and shal be saued . Yea ( sayth Iewell ) he must be so certaine , as if Christ was present and so told him ; sayth Pareus , as certaine as that Christ dyed for the remission of our sinnes ; sayth Luther , and Zuinglius , as certaine as he is of Christs saluatiō , yea so certaine , that except Christ be damned , he cannot be damned . Whereupon they all hould that the obiect of Iustifying Fayth , is not to belieue that Christ is God and Man , was borne , dyed , and rose for vs , nor to belieue the Scripture and the word of God in it , which is a generall or historicall Fayth , and common to the reprobate , & the Diuells ; but to belieue that himselfe hath his sinnes pardoned him , is iust and shal be saued , and that God is mercifull to him , doth account him iust , and will saue him , the certainty & assurance of which doth iustify him before God. All which may be seene in the Authors owne wordes in D. Smiths Collation . This is that speciall Fayth by which alone Protestants hould that euery man is iustifyed & saued , and without which euery one is damned . Therefore this Faith is necessary to saluation necessitate medij , and as a thing so necessary , doth oblige euery one in particuler vnder paine of damnation to haue it , because by it all are saued , and without it , all are damned . Therefore true is the Minor Proposition , that as according to the Protestants , this faith alone is necessary for euery one to saluation , so euery one is bound to haue , and so to beleeue it vpon paine of the losse of his saluation . Vpon which premises , which in the first moode and figure inferre the Conclusion , followes , that according to this protestant position of Iustification & Saluation , by only & speciall Faith , that euery one whethersoeuer he belieue or no , whether he be faithful or infidel , elect or reprobate , must be saued . Which absurdityas it is most absurd , so is the same more fully illustrated and deduced out of the same principle after this manner : Speciall Faith , or infallible assurance of saluation is necessary to saluatiō , as well to Iudas a reprobat , as to Iames an elect ; and as Iames is saued by it , so is Iudas damned for want of it , according to the Protestants : therefore vnder paine of his damnation Iudas is as well bound to haue it , as Iames is ; because it being a necessary meane to saluation , the want of it is Iudas damnation , as the hauing of it is Iames his sauation . Iudas therfore ( and that which I say of Iudas , I say of all the reprobate ) is as much obliged vnder paine of his damnation , to belieue as an article of his faith , that he shal be saued , as Iames , or any elect is ? But whatsoeuer Iudas and all the reprobate or infidels are bound to belieue as an article of faith necessary to their saluation , as wel as Iames and the elect , must needs be true , and that certainly and infallibly true , whethersoeuer they do belieue it or no : Therefore it must needs be true , that as well Iudas and all the reprobate shal be saued , as Iames and the elect . The fundamental reason of which is this : All diuine Faith ( of which kind , and that the most chiefe the Protestants will haue this their Speciall Faith to be ) depends vpon diuine reuelation frō God , this reuelation supposeth truth in the obiect or thing reuealed , the obiect of truth or thing reuealed , is aeterna veritatis and true in it selfe before it be belieued , and so true whether it be belieued or no. The obiect therefore of this speciall faith , which euery one as well reprobate as elect , is bound vnder paine of his damnation to belieue , and which is the remission of his owne sinnes , his Iustification and saluation ; is , and must be aeternae veritatis , is , and must be true before it be belieued , is , and must be true whether it be belieued or no ; and so it is and must be true , that euery man , as well reprobate as elect , hath remission of sins , iustification and saluation , & it is , & was eternally true before it was belieued , and so is true whether it be belieued or no , and so , that his sinnes are remitted , he iustified and saued , whether he belieue or no. And as there cannot be giuen an instance in any other article of faith necessary to saluation , in which this reason ( which indeed is the ground of all faith ) doth not conuince that the article is true whethersoeuer it be belieued or no ; so no reason , nor answer in any reason according to the same ground of true faith , can be giuen why it should not hold good also in this act and obiect of this Special Faith , which if it be diuine faith must participat of the nature & essence of all diuine faith . Therefore it must follow that either this speciall faith is no diuine faith , but an illusion and phantasy , or if it be diuine , that this absurd absurdity must follow vpon it , that man may be saued without any faith , and that all shal be saued whether they haue any faith or none . Which is yet confirmed further by these two parities , the one diuine , the other humane : the former thus : As the Resurrection of euery man being an article of faith which euery one is bound to belieue , is true , that is , euery man shall ryse againe whethersoeuer he do beleeue it or no : so the Iustification and saluation of euery man being likewise an article which euery one is bound to belieue or else is damned , is likewise true , that is , he is iustified or saued whethersoeuer he do belieue or no. The reason of both is , because remission of sins , iustification , or saluation of euery one , being as well an obiect & article of ones faith , as the Resurrection of euery one is , they are both presuposed as true to faith , not composed and made true by faith , & so both alike eternally true , both alike true antecedent and before the act of faith , and so both true whether they be belieued or no. The later thus : As King Charles for example ( whome God preserue ) is right and lawfull King of England , whether he be by all subiects for such belieued and receaued or no , and the obligation that al subiects haue so to acknowledge & receaue him vnder paine of treason , doth suppose him to be their true King , for else it were not truly treason to refuse him : so all articles of faith , and amongst the rest this of proper saluation , are true whether they be belieued or no , and the obligation that euery one hath to belieue them ; and so this , vnder paine of damnation , doth suppose them , and this to be true , for else could none vnder paine of damnation be bound to belieue either them , or this of his Saluation . Therefore as King Charles his title and right of being King ( supposing that all are bound vnder paine of treason to receaue him ) is good whethersoeuer euery one of his subiects do belieue it , and so receaue him or no : so the truth of euery mans saluation , supposing euery one is bound vnder paine of damnation to belieue it as true , is certaine and infallibly true whethersoeuer euery one do so belieue it or no , and so shall be iustifyed and saued whether they belieue or no. Which absurdity as it is most absurd , so the Protestant principle of sole and speciall fayth , out of which it necessarily followes , must needes be absurd and false . The same absurdity may be inferred , and is seconded by other like absurd positions of some particuler Protestants , as by that position of Zuinglius , who maintained that Theseus , Hercules , Socrates , and Aristides , all Pagans , are equally with Peter and Paul in heauen ; by that of some of M. Fox his martyrs , who as himselfe recordes of them , taught that euen a Mahometan , Turke , or Sarazen may be saued if he trust in God & liue well ; by that of Puccius in Germany , of Syr William Hickman , and some of his fellowes in Lincolnshire heere in in England ( which is also too common in the simple peoples mouths ) that all men at the last shal be saued , and that God will suffer none to be damned , whome he created . All which as absurd , do inferre and second the former absurdity . Fifthly , it followeth that a man is iustified by a fayth which is in it selfe , 1. False , 2. Contradictory , 3. Sinnefull , 4. Rash , 5. Presumptuous , 6. Preiudicious to all Hope , Charity , and good life , and 7. Iniurious to Christ as he is a Redeemer , a Law-giuer , a Iudge , a Priest , and also doth make him ignorant , sinnefull , & damned , as shal be proued by euery one of these heades in particuler . And first , that this Speciall Fayth , is a fayth not true , but false , is proued thus . First , because a true fayth is of thinges reuealed by God in scripture or tradition , and proposed by the Church in practise or definition , but that either so many of so contrary religions as Lutherans , Caluinists , Anabaptists , Familists , Arians , or , that any one , in any one of these professions is predestinated , iustified , & glorified , as they all belieue , is neither reuealed in any Scripture , or Tradition from God , nor confirmed in any practise or declaration of holy Church , therefore not a true but a false fayth . 2. A true Fayth cannot perswade and propose beliefes & doctrines which are contrary , and condemne one another : but this speciall fayth persuades a beliefe , doctrine , and certainty of saluation which is contrary , and condemneth one another , as the fayth and saluation of the Lutherans , Caluinists , Anabaptists , and the rest in number aboue 100. which are all opposit in fayth , all condemne one another , and yet are all sure of their saluation by this fayth : Ergo it cannot be true . Secondly , that this fayth is contrary or contradictory in it selfe , is proued thus ; That certainty of Fayth is contradictory which belieueth a fayth and doctrine contrary or contradictory ; but by this certainty of Fayth the Lutherans , Caluinists , Libertines , Anabaptists , Trinitarians , and the rest , do belieue fayth and religions contrary and contradictory , as is manifest by the former instances , Ergo. Againe , that fayth is contradictory which doth make the same man belieue cōtradictories ; but this speciall fayth makes men belieue contradictories , as that it doth make him iust , and doth not mak him iust , Ergo. That it maks a man iust they affirme , because by it a man is iustified ; that it makes not a man iust , is proued , because by it he belieues that he is iust , therefore he is iust before he belieues it , in the same manner , as God is God before he is belieued to be God. Or thus : A man is iust before he belieue , because his iustice is the obiect of his fayth , and so presupposed to fayth , and yet he is not iust before he belieue , because this iustice is the effect of his fayth , by which he is iustified , and so is after fayth : but to be iust and not iust both , before he belieue , is cōtradictory , Ergo. Againe , that is contradictory which is good , and not good , which doth make a man iust and not iust ; but this speciall fayth is good , because it iustifyes , and not good , because it is a sin , and that mortall , Ergo. Againe , it makes a man iust , because by it he is iustified , & not iust , because by it he is made sinfull , it being a sinne as euery good worke is in their grounds . Againe , this fayth doth alone iustify , and doth not alone iustify ; alone iustify , because Caluin and all Protestants affirme it , & it alone doth not iustify because the same Caluin affirmes , that Baptisme is a signe of remission of sinnes past and to come , which remission of sinnes to come , dependes vpon the memory of Baptisme past , and so not vpon fayth only . Againe , this fayth according to them being a worke of man wholy infected with original sinne , is a sinne , and so maketh a man sinnefull , & this fayth doth iustify , and so is a good worke : but to make a man sinnefull and iust , are contrary , or contradictory , Ergo. Againe , it affirmes that euery good worke , euen the least of the best person , is a sinne ; & so there are no good workes but all sinnes ; and it affirmes that fayth cannot be without good workes , and so there are good workes ; but to affirme that there are good works , and that there are no good workes , are contradictory , Ergo. Thirdly , that this faith is a sinne , and makes a man sinfull , is proued thus . Euery good worke , euen the best worke of the best man , according to them , is a sinne , because it proceeds from a fountaine corrupted with sinne : but this faith which iustifieth is such a good worke which consequently is a sinne , therfore it maketh a man sinne , and so a man is saued from sinne by a worke which is sinne ; made iust by an act which is iniust , adopted the sonne of God by a worke which offendes God , and is made partaker of heauen by an act which deserues hell . Fourthly , That this faith is temerarious , is proued thus . That is rashly and lightly belieued which is belieued without any authority of scripture , which according to them is the only meanes of beliefe : but there is no Scripture that assures , for example , that either Caluin , Knox , or Tindall is predestinated , hath his sinnes forgiuen him , and shal be glorified in heauen , which yet they belieue , say they , more certainly by this speciall faith , then they do the diuinity birth , death , resurrection , or ascension of Christ , which they belieue onely by an historical faith , therfore they rashly and without ground do belieue it . Which is confirmed , because to belieue things they see men haue sense , to belieue morall or mathematicall conclusions , they haue reason and demonstration , and to belieue articles of faith they haue reuelation of God in scripture : but to belieue euery one that his predestination , iustification , & glorification is certaine to him , is made knowne neither by experience of sense , nor by euidence of reason , nor by reuelation of scripture , or any way else ; therefore it is rashly without ground belieued . Fiftly , That this only speciall faith is presumptuous , is proued thus : As that is desperation which will not hope for saluation by grace ; so that is presumption ( both the extreames of hope ) which will hope for it without good works , good life , obseruance of the Commandements , and merits , to which life eternall is promised : but only and speciall faith excludes all good works , all merit , all obseruance of the commandements , as any meanes of saluation , and as not possible to be done . 2. It is great presumption to expect so great and eternall a reward , kingdome , and felicity without any labour , and paines for it , without any promise , or warrant of it , and that without any doubt , or feare of the obtaining it ; all contrary to expresse scripture , which wish vs , with feare and trembling to worke our saluation (a) : Not to be without feare of sinne forgiuen (b) : And assures vs , that no man knowes whether he be worthy of loue or hatred (c) . And all contrary to the practise of all saints , who haue vsed such continuance , and feruour of prayer , such rigour , and austerity of penance , such retirement and forsaking of the world , all to obtaine and purchase it at Gods hands . Which yet this speciall faith will obtaine by only assuring and securing a man , most certainly of it , without either condition of works , and good life , without any works of penance or satisfaction , or without any doubt or feare of loosing it , or failing in it . Sixtly , That this only faith destroyes all hope , Charity , prayer , and good works , is proued thus . No man can hope for that which he hath ; no man prayes , and makes suit for that which he hath , and cannot loose ; no man labours to practise that which he deems impossible to performe . But this faith assures them of their predestination , that they are predestinate , and cannot be damned ; assures them of Gods fauour that they haue remission of sinnes , and iustification , and cannot loose it : and assures them of glorification , that they shall enioy heauen , and saluation , which is as due to them as to Christ , and can no more faile them then it can faile Christ ; where is then any place for hope ? It assures thē that good works , and the keeping of the law is impossible ; that pennance , and satisfaction is fruitlesse , yea derogating from the merit of Christ ; that all merit by grace , or hope of reward for our good deeds is excluded . That such a loue of God is required ( to wit , an intensiue loue with all the force of our soule , and an only loue which admits no kind of loue of any thing else ) as is possible only in the next life , not factible in this life : therefore by this faith is excluded all hope of reward for good works , all necessity of prayer for obteining the Kingdome of heauen , all vse of saying the Lords prayer for remission of sinnes , all fruit of penance , or satisfaction for the punishment of sinne , all possibility of doing good , liuing well , and louing of God aboue all things , and withall is included a necessity of breaking Gods Commandements , of sinning mortally , & offending in all actions , euen in the best actions of the best men , as Caluin expresly affirmes ; and yet withall this infallible assurance of the Kingdome of heauen is by this faith obteined and confirmed . Who will therfore , or needs , ( according to these principles ) to pray , to fast , to do pennance , to forbeare sinne , to bridle his concupiscence , to do good works , to loue God , and liue piously , since all are needlesse , fruitlesse , or impossible by this doctrine ? Surely whosoeuer doth either preach this doctrine of good life , works , pennance , and charity , as many moderate ministers do , or do practise in their life , and conuersation the same , as many well intending Protestants do , they cannot do it either out of the principles and grounds of their religion , which we see require no such thing , as all opposit to it ; but either out of the engrafted light of natural reason , which doth teach it ; or out of the good inclination of their natural disposition , which doth moue them to it ; or out of the principles or morall vertues which morall Philosophers haue layd for it ; or out of the doctrine , or example , & imitation or others whō they see ▪ practise it , and for the practise to deserue a laudable comendation and worthy esteeme among men by it . Seauenthdly , that this speciall & only faith doth derogate from the vertue and perfection of the incarnation and passion of our B. Sauiour Iesus Christ , is proued thus : that faith which makes our blessed Sauiour neither generall Redeemer of all , nor so much as to be their sufficient Redeemer , and which makes him neither lawgiuer , nor ●dge , nor phisitian , nor true sauiour of mankind ; and also doth make him ignorant , impotent , vniust , sinfull , desperate , and damned , doth derogate from the vertue of the incarnation , passion , resurrection , and ascension of Christ : but this only and speciall faith , and the assurance of iustification by it , doth all this , ergo . And first , that it makes Christ no generall Redeemer of all mankind is proued . 1. Because it takes away from him the vniuersality of his redemption , and the extension of his charity to all men . For though Christ shed not his blood for the Angels , neither was a Redeemer of them , whose fall was not generall of all Angells , either in indiuiduo , or in specie ( as was mans , who wholy fell and sinned , especially in Adam ) and whose sinne was more voluntary , and very pardonable , in that their vnderstanding was greater , and their tēptation lesser then was mans , whome the Diuell seduced , & whose sinne was not voluntary in their owne person , but in Adam their first father : yet least Christ should either seeme impotent that he could not , or vnmercifull that he would not shew his mercy to any estate wholy either of Angells , or of men , it did beseeme , and befit the property of his power , and goodnesse that it should shew and extend it selfe to the whole race of mankind at the least ; and that he should offer vp his bloud sufficiently for the redemption of all , and chiefly ( as he did ) of those who sinned , not actually and willingly , but by the sinne , and in the will of another , as all by originall sinne did in Adam . And as it was conuenient , so it is testified of him , That (a) he gaue himselfe a redemption for all ; that (b) he is a propitiation for our sinnes , and not for ours only , but also for the whole world ; that (c) he would haue all saued and come to the knowledge of the truth ; that (d) he is the Lambe of God which takes away the sinnes of the world ; and (e) whome God gaue , his sonne , for the world . Which word ( world ) includes rather the wicked , and reprobate , then the elect and iust . But this his generall redemption , and dying for all men is by this special Fayth quite ouerthrowne ; in that the defenders of it affirme that Christ dyed only for the elect , not the reprobate ; that this fayth is giuen only to the elect , not to the wicked , which infers that Christ was either weake and vnable , and the value of his passion insufficient , to recompence the debt of all mens sinne ▪ and that the malice of the sinne was more great in all men , then the vertue of God was powerfull in Christ ; or that Christ was more cruell in rigour of his iustice to condemne the greatest part of the world for sinne , then he was mercifull in the tender bowels of his compassion to offer vp his paines , and passion for the redemption of al from sinne . Secondly , That speciall faith makes Christ no perfect redeemer of any , no not of those elect and iust , for whome , according to them , he was borne and suffered , is proued by these 3. reasons . 1. Because they belieue not that Christ who as man did suffer , did also as God ordaine himselfe thus to suffer : nor that Christ , who , as man , did offer his sufferings to God iustly offended , and required satisfaction in iustice equiualent to the offence , did also , as God , accept of this suffering for the redemption of mans offence , though performed by a person who was without offence : nor that Christ , as mā did vndergo all paines and torments which the malice of Sathan , and man could inflict for the more copious redemption of man , ( to shew therby the goodnes of God , the greatnes of sinne , and the ingratitude of man , whereas any one action , or any one drop of bloud had beene of more worth in dignity and goodnes , then all the sinnes of all men were of value in malice and basenes ; did also , as God , giue such a dignity , worth , and value to these sufferings , that the least , or any one of them , as proceeding from the person of God , was a price sufficient to haue redeemed all the sinnes of all men , and of as many worlde 's besides as are men , if so many had beene : ( because , I say , they will not belieue this worth and value in the workes and sufferings of Christ , God and Man , to be so much infinitly greater then all the grauity of all sins of all men , as the goodnes of one God is infinitly greater thē the malice of all men ; therefore they require in the Passion of Christ the selfe same paines , and an equall degree in the same paines of Christs suffering for men , which was due , & should haue beene inflicted vpon man. Therefore , say they , as man was to suffer in body and soule , so was Christ to suffer , and did suffer , not only in body , by shedding his bloud , which as corporall auailed little : but in soule also , which for the sinnes of the soule was to suffer the paines due to the soule . And as man was to suffer the paines of hell in body & in soule , so was Christ to suffer , and did suffer all the same paines of hell , which man should haue suffered , and so was presented before the tribunall of God for man , as guilty of sinne , Feared the iudgment of God against this sinne , doubted and feared the sentence of his damnation for this sinne , and wauered betweene blessing and cursing of God , betweene praysing and blaspheming of God , vttered wordes not only of inconsideration and perturbation , but euen of desperation , and at last suffered all the paines and torments of hell in his soule vpon the Crosse , which any damned doth suffer , or ought to suffer in his soule for the same sinnes in hell . In which , 1. They deny the fulnesse and perfection of Christs redemption , euen of the elect , in that they deny the infinite excesse of dignity and value in euery action and passiō of Christ , as proceeding from his diuine person aboue the malice of sinne . 2. They doe derogate from the vertue of Christs bloud shed by his passion ( of which the Scripture affirmes , that (a) he iustified vs in his bloud ; (b) that he redeemed vs in his bloud ; (c) washed vs in his bloud ; (d) pacifyed for vs in his bloud ; (e) purchased vs with his bloud ; (f) and made his new test●ment in his bloud ; in that they affirme (g) nothing had beene done if Christ had dyed only a corporall death . 3. They do extenuate the merit of Christ , in that they auerre , (h) that in the iudgmēt of God there is no place of merit for Christ. 4. They do impose vpon our B. Sauiour horrible impiety , & blasphemy , in that they auouch him to haue doubted , feared , and wauered in his saluation , to haue beene ready to curse , and blaspheme , and to haue despaired , and suffered all the torments of the damned in hell . In all which as they impose this horrible blasphemy vpon our B. Sauiour Iesus , and make him more sinnefull and vncertaine of his saluation , then they are of theirs ; so they do most impiously derogate from the vertue of his death and passion , and from the perfection of his redēption , and in the effect thereof , euen in those elect who according to them , he only by his death saued & redeemed . Secondly , because to be a perfect , and full Redeemer of the elect , is requisite that he redeeme them from the seruitude , and misery into which by sinne they fell , which was the seruitude and misery , 1. Of sinne , into which being depriued of grace , they of themselues cannot but fall , and of themselues cannot ryse again ; you (a) are seruants of sinne . 2. Of Sathan , to whome by sinne they are made captiue , and (b) cannot of themselues resist his will. 3. Of sensuality , and the (c) law in the members repugning to the law of the mind , which of themselues they cannot maister . 4. Of the law of workes , which of themselues they cannot performe , but by it remaine vnder (d) the curse . 5. Of hell , which for their owne demerit is due to them , we (e) haue made a couenant with hell . But by this doctrine of sole fayth , that Christ did not redeem euen the elect from any of these captiuityes , and miseries , especially of sinne , Sathan , sensuality , and law of workes , nor yet from Hell , is proued . Not from the seruitude of sin , because the best man in his best workes , according to Caluin and Luther , cannot but sinne , as before , and because the iust hath no inherent grace or iustice to sanctify him from sinne , but only imputatiue , couering his sinne , and making him seeme and shew iust . Not from the seruitude of Sathan , because he wants Free-will to resist him , and so cannot but yield to his instigation , and because he still remaines in sinne both originall and actuall , and so by sinne remaines Sathās slaue . Not from the concupiscence , because it still remaynes in him , infects euery action proceeding from him ; and because , according to Caluin , not to haue concupiscence is impossible , and according to Luther , to haue a VVoman is as necessary for a man , as to eate , drinke , sleep , or as to be a man. Not frō the seruitude of the law , because the performance of the law and the doing of good workes is impossible , and because mā , though iust , remaines still guilty of the disobedience of the law . Not from the misery of hell , because while a man remaines a worker of sinne , a seruer of concupiscence , a transgressour of the law , and a slaue of Sathan ( as according to the former confessed doctrine , euen the iust and elect do ) he cannot but be subiect to hell , and hell be due vnto him : therefore if Christ redeeme not euen the elect , and iust from the seruitude either of sinne , Sathan , sensuality , the law , or hell , as by this their doctrine he doth not , he cannot be a perfect and complete Redeemer , euen of those elect , whom only , say they , he came to redeeme . Thirdly , that this doctrine makes Christ a bad Phisitiā , & worse Chirurgeon of soules , to cure them of their sinnes , is proued : Because he infuses neither grace into our soares to cure them , nor giues strength to our infirmityes to enable vs , nor extinguishes the poyson of originall sinne which still infects our actions ; but only couers our soares , and wounds with a faire cloake of his owne iustice , presents vs thus couered before God as iust , and imputes no sinnes vnto vs ; though inwardly indeed we remaine vniust , and wicked , in soule , in hart , and in all cogitations , wordes , or actions . What doth Christ therfore ? Surely no more then a Chirurgeon , who finding a man wounded , and his woundes festered , and infecting the rest of the body , should only couer the same with a faire cloath , produce , and shew him to the people thus couered , and for this cure accountes both the man safe and sound , and also himselfe a perfect Chirurgeon or Phisitian worthy of honour and reward for his paines . Such a Phisitian or Chirurgeon , according to them , is our Sauiour , and such a cure doth he worke vpon all his elect , whome he cures , and redeemes ; & no beter , for he cures not by grace infused , either the ignorance of the vnderstanding or the malice of the will , or the concupiscence of the affections , or the infirmity of the exteriour faculties : but only couers and hides them with the cloake of his iustice , and so imputes them for no sinnes , and accounts the persons iust , which is all the cure that our Phisitian Christ workes on vs in their new doctrine . Fourthly , that this doctrine makes Christ either no law-giuer at all , contrary to the Prophets who call him a Law-giuer , and to his disciple S. Iohn who sayes , he gaue a new commandement , or els such a law-giuer as makes lawes which are neither iust , vpright , nor agreable to reason , and equity , is manifest ; for either they hould that Christ made no lawes , and was no law-maker at al , but a Sauiour only , who tyed vs to none , but freed vs from all lawes , and cleared our conscience from all obligation to all lawes , from all obedience to all lawes , and from any scruple , or punishment of transgressing any law naturall , morall , or diuine , of Church or common-wealth , of God , or of man , and by the liberty of his Ghospell gaue vs freedome to do what we will , to omit , or comit what we will , without condition or obligation , but only to belieue , and assure our selues that we are sure to be saued . Or if they admit any obligation of keeping any lawes , as the morall law of the ten Commandement , or other , they auerre it to be impossible to keep them , euen for the iust and perfect , though assisted with the help of grace , whereby they make God cruell in imposing that vpon vs , which we are not able to performe ; vniust in punishing vs for that which he enforces vs to commit ; & vnreasonable , in charging vs aboue our ability , & in punishing vs for not doing that which we could not do . As afterward is more at large shewed . Fiftly , That this faith doth take from Christ all authority either of iudging at all , or of iudging vprightly , & so makes him either no iudge , or an vniust iudge , is proued ; Because in a iudge is requisite , 1. That he vnpartially discusse , and examine the cause . 2. That he duely reward the iust . 3. That he iustly punish the offender . But this doctrine leaues no place for discussion of sinnes , because , according to it , all works are sinnes , as proceeding from originall sinne , and infected with originall sinne , and all sinnes are a like great as equally forbid by the law of sinne , which forbids as well , and vnder as great penalty ( at least in generall ) of death & damnatiō , the theft of a pin as of a pound : therfore all discussiō of this difference is needlesse where no difference among them in greatnesse is admitted . 2. It leaues no place for reward of God workes , in that it admits neither any workes to bee before God good , nor any persons to be inwardly iust , nor any merit to be possible by any worke , or person , nor any reward to be due to any merit ; but where neither worke is good , nor person iust , nor merit deseruing , there can be no iustice of remuneration in rewarding either good works , or iust persons . 3. It leaues no place to the iust punishing of the wicked , for where all persons are either already iudged , and sure to be punished , as the Infidels and Pagans are , for he that belieues not , is already iudged ; or shall not at all be iudged , nor punished , as all faithfull ( Protestants ) shall not , who are sure to be saued ; where the thing commaunded is impossible to be done , or the law commaunding doth not oblige to the doing ; where God doth ordeine that thing to be dōne , and compels the person to do it ; where the person commaunded hath neither ability to do the thing commaunded if he would , nor yet fredome of will to do it if he could , there can be no place of iustice in the lawmaker to punish the fact thus committed , or the person committing it . But so it is according to the former Protestant doctrine . Therfore , according to the same , Christ cannot at the day of iudgment iudge any , or at the least not iustly ; and cannot be either a iudge , or at least not a iust iudge , according to euery mans works . Sixtly , That this doctrine doth bereaue Christ of his priesthood , and power of sacrificing , and offering for sinnes , is proued thus : As in all states of nature cerimonall , or grace , sinnes were committed ; so in all states were sacrifices ordeined for remission of sinnes , and priests appointed to offer for the same . In the law of nature the sacrifice was voluntary , & the priest was the eldest of the family . In the law of Moyses the sacrifice was determined to certaine beasts , birds , and meates , and the priests were Aarons posterity , and the tribe of Leui. In the law of grace the sacrifice is the body and bloud of Christ , and the priests are Christs Apostles , and who are consecrated by lawfull orders from them . Christ , as in persō so in his Priesthood and sacrifice , he surpassed both the eldest of the family in the law of nature , and the Leuiticall priests , & the sacrifice of both ; for they were only men , he was God & man ; they were men sinfull , he was not polluted with sinne , they as men and sinners are far distant from God , to whom , & like to men in sinne for whom , they offer ; he as participating of God to whom , and of man for whome , he offers , is one , & imediate with both . They offered often , and many times , as wanting one full price able to make a full redemption at once ; he offered once for all , and that a full price & satisfaction sufficient for all . They were annointed with materiall oyle of oliues ; he with internall oyle of Deity aboue his companions . They offered sacrifices many in kind , and meane in quality , all inferiour to themselues ; he offered one and that most iust euen himselfe , and his owne body & bloud : of which sacrifice himselfe was , 1. The priest , annointed by his incarnation to offer . 1. The sacrifice ordeined by himselfe , an hoast to be offered . 3. The temple consecrated to God for his holy offering . 4. The Altar in his body which was sprinckled with the bloud of this offering ; for all which reasons Abraham , and the Leuit●all priests in him ▪ and in his soines as inferiour , offered tithes to Melchisedech as superiour , and in Melchisedech to Christ figured by him as the chiefe of all . The sacrifices Christ offered were of two sorts , both of them one , and the same in substance , to wit , his owne body and bloud , but diffe●ing and diuerse in the manner of offering ; the one on the Crosse , the other at the supper ; the one bloudy , the other vnbloudy ; the one , in his owne forme of man , visible , the other , in the forme of bread and wine , inuisible ; The one once , and not reiterated , as being a sufficient price of our redemption , the other often , as the application of the former , and that often repeated as sinnes are often committed . By the one purchasing to himselfe his Church in his bloud , by the other conseruing & sanctifiyng the same to himselfe by his grace . By the one , as a cause meritorious deseruing grace , pacifying God , and reconciling man to God ; by the other as an instrument causing grace , sanctification , satisfaction , and actuall remission of sinnes ; for by it , as by Baptisme , is wrought remission of sinnes , and , as by fayth , hope , charity , and other vertues , is obteined grace and saluation , Now sith it is euident that Christ was , 1. a Priest . 2. According to the order , not of Aaron , but of Melchisedech . 3. For euer . Sith it is euident also , 1. That a Priest and sacrifice are correlatiue and so mutuall , that where the one is , there the other must be . 2. That Melchisedech was a Priest , and his sacrifice was in bread and wine . 3. That Christ is compared to Melchisedech , not only in his kingly authority , as King of iustice and peace as Melchisedech was , nor only in his genealogy , as being without Father as man , and without mother as God , or without predecessor before him , or successor after him in the office of redeemer , as Melchisedech is said to be without Father & mother ; but also in priestly function ( concealed on purpose by S. Paul for the incapacity of the Iews , as a thing of which he hath a speech great and inexplicable to vtter ) and in his priestly sacrifice by offering bread & wine as Melchisedech did , and that not for one time , but for euer . Sith , I say , all this is euident , it followes , 1. That Christ is a priest , not according to Aaron in offering bloud , but according to Melchisedech in offering bread and wine , and that not once by himselfe , but for euer by his Apostles and Priests , to whom he gaue commission to offer the same sacrifice which himselfe had done . 2. It followes , that to verify Christs being priest for euer according to the order of Melchisedech , there must be a succession of priests and sacrifice in Gods Church to offer the same sacrifice for euer , & so to make his priesthood continue for euer . But by this former Protestant doctrine is excluded all sacrifice for sinne , all priesthood to offer sacrifice , and all holy orders to consecrat priests ; and so this perpetuall priesthood and sacrifice of Christ according to Melchisedech , is reiected . First in Christ himselfe and his owne person whome they deny to haue offered any sacrifice at his last supper . Secondly , in his Priests and deputies , to whome they deny all authority of Priesthood , and all power to offer sacrifice , and so admit no sacrifice at all according to the order of Melchisedech , either by Christ , or his Church , and why ? Because only Fayth doth iustify , satisfy , and apply the merit of Christ , only Fayth doth couer all sinnes by the apprehension of the iustice of Christ , only Fayth doth assure all that they are iust , shall continue , and that they need no other worke , Sacrament , or sacrifice to make or keep them iust , but only Fayth , and so this Fayth destroyes all sacrifice , & therby the Priesthood of Christ . Lastly , that this doctrine bereaues Christ of his knowledge , both beatificall , by which from the first instance of his conception he did clearely see God ; and also infused , and that not out of thinges naturall , and by accidents infused , which by nature , and industry may be obtained , but also of thinges supernaturall , and per se infused , of things which are by fayth reuealed to vs , such as are the mysteries we belieue , and the secrets of harts , all which by ancient Deuines is admitted to haue beene in Christ from the first instant of his conception : That , I say , they depriue Christ of all this excellency and knowledge , and make him ignorant , and more ignorant then Adam , who was created as in perfection of stature , and strength of body , so also in perfection of all philosophicall and theologicall knowledge in soule , by which he gaue names to all beasts ; and more ignorant then Salomon , who was the wisest of men before or after him , is proued : Because they affirme that he (a) assumed our ignorance , that he was ignorant like other children , was instructed as boyes are , increased in knowledge not only experimentall , but also habituall as others do , learned and profited in artes and sciences humane and diuine as children do ; that he was iignorant of the place of Lazarus his bur●all , of the Iewes fayth who offered the man sicke of the palsy ; of the Figge-tree , both of what kind it was , and what fruit it bore ; and of the day of iudgment , not only to reueale it to others , but to know it himselfe ; that he made farre-fetcht-similitudes , and needlesse illations nothing to purpose , wrested the wordes and sense of the Prophets , weakly confuted his aduersaries , failed in memory , and made prayers and petitions vnaduised , and not premeditated , forced with the vehemency of sorrow in the garden : all which are by Caluin imputed to him . But if Christ was thus ignorant and blind in his vnderstanding , then might he be deceaued in his iudgement , and so deceaue others , and faile in truth of that he sayd , or reuealed in Scripture ; then may the scripture be false , his fayth and doctrine be false , all Christians be lead into errour and blindnes ; then may he be infirme in his operations , and sinfull also in his actions . For if the vnderstanding , which is the light to lighten , and the guide to direct the other faculties of the soule , may be blind , ignorant , inconsiderate , and erroneous ; then may the will which doth follow the light , and direction of the vnderstanding , and wils nothing but that the vnderstanding knowes , also faile in the election of good , and so will that is ill , and commit sinne ; and so may Christ , who is the Way , the Truth , and the Life , fall into errour , falshood , and sinne , and so erre , deceaue and commit sinne . To all which if we adde the detestable , and blasphemous assertions boldly auerred by prime Protestants Luther , Caluin and their fellowes against Christ , to wit , that God made him a sinner , vniust , guilty and hatefull to himselfe , that he was culpable , a sinner true , and most truly a sinner as other men , a sinner most great , most vile , and obnoxius to the anger of God , that he carried himselfe vncurteously , and not like a sonne to his mother , that he made a prayer vnpremeditated , a vow abrupte , inconsiderate , contrary to his vocation , to be corrected , retracted , and renounced ; that he renounced his office of mediatour , was forgetfull of our saluation , and the charge committed to him ; that he confessed his effeminate nicenesse , esteemed himselfe not to be sent of God , did wauer betweene praising and blaspheming of God , did stagger among the waues of tentations , vttered words of desperation , was ouercome with desperatiō , did renounce his saluation , knew God was angry at him ; that he stood in need of Baptisme , was cursed and execrable as commonly the damned are ; that he suffered the horrour of a conscience feeling Gods eternall wrath , did feare , and highly despaire in his soule in the same manner a● the damned , did wauer betweene hell and life , struggle with the horrour of eternall paines ; had an horrour of eternall punishment , was tormented with the feare of horrible damnation , was horribly afraid of the profound abisse of death , was in feare to be absorpt by death , was stroken with the horrour of the diuine malediction , was tortured with anxiety as if he had God his enemy , feared his saluation , was perswaded that he was vndonne , and was striken with the horrour of Gods iudgment more then euer any man was , or could be , in which his horrour consisted the summe of our consolation ; that he suffered the same paines of hell which the damned do suffer , tasted , felt , and suffered the true paines or dolours of hell , the infernall paines and sorrowes of hell , was in the middest of the torments of hell , suffered the paine of hell , the same paine and punishment with the damned , the horrible torments of a damned man , the eternall paines for the time , the execrable death , the second death which is the death of the soule , the separation from God , felt , tasted , and endured the eternall death , the anguish of hell , the torments in hell after death both in his body and soule : All which are the very summe , and abridgement , without adding or agrauating of any one word , of the more ample speaches and sentences of the most famous Protestant Doctours , and maisters , as Luther , Melancthon , Illyricus , Reineccius , Lobecius , Hutterus , Vrsinus , Paraeus in Germany ; of Caluin , Beza , Daneus in Geneua ; of Tilenus Piscator , Molinaeus , Polanus in France ; of Vorstius , Homius , in the Low-countries ; and of Whitaker , Perkins , and Parkes in England ; and may be seene at large in the learned Collation of the Right reuerend Bishop D. Smith . If I say we adde all these execrable , horrible , and blasphemous assertions against the eternal Maiesty & goodnesse of the sonne of God , and compare them with the infallible certainty , and assurance which they make euery one of their owne predestination , iustification , and glorification , of which by faith they make themselues so certaine as if Christ had beene present and said they shal be saued ; so sure as they are sure that there is a God , or that Christ is saued , which are likewise at large in the same Author faithfully collected : If , I say , we adde all this impiety , blasphemy , and infidelity which is vented , and inuented by this priuate spirit , and both practised , preached , and printed by the chief professors of the same , and so diuulged to the vew of the whole world to be belieued and professed of all as the word , and the pure word of God , as the honour , and greatest honour of God , & Iesus Christ ; I see not what greater hypocrisy , & dissimulation , what deeper blasphemy , and abomination can be vttered , or by what meanes a readier or broader way to the subuersion of all Christianity , and piety , and the erection of all Atheisme , & Barbarisme can be made , and prepared . And thus much of the absurdities which ensue vpon the priuate spirits doctrine , of sole , speciall , and certaine iustifying faith , & the consequēt points of doctrine depending vpon it . Absurdities which follow vpon the third head , that is , of Concupiscence being originall sinne . SECT . IIII. OVT of the third principle , or progeny of this priuate spirit , and the doctrine hanging vpon it , which is , that originall sinne ( which they make to be Concupiscence ) doth remaine in the regenerate , and iust , is not remitted , or abolished by Baptisme ; but only not imputed , and couered by faith ; doth corrupt the whole man , & all his actions , internall and externall , doth staine with sinne all good works euen the best of the best men ; doth strike dead all freewill , liberty to do well ; doth strangle all inherent iustice and sanctification ; doth stope all merit , satisfaction , and pennance ; and doth set a stay to all possibility of keeping the cōmandements , with such other like now paradoxes ensuing vpon it : out of this , I say , it followes , first . That the whole Protestant Church , and their spouse of Christ which consists only of such elect , and regenerat persons as these , is ( if we may so tearme it ) a kingdome , a Citty , a temple , a house , a spouse , a body of Christ ( by which termes the true Church of Christ is stiled ) consisting of subiects , Citizens , seruants , persons , and members , who in euery action , euery good worke , euen in the best worke of the best of them , do sinne , nothing but sinne , and cannot but commit sinne , and that mortally ; all whose thoughts , words , and deeds are sinnes , mortall sins , damnable sinnes , and they by these sinnes are vncleane , polluted , vniust , and full of malice in the sight of God ; who are not able to obserue , keepe , or performe any one , much lesse all the commandements of God , as impossible , and not obliging vpon any condition to saluation ; who are idolaters , blasphemers , forswearers , breakers of the sabboth , adulterers , murtherers , theeues , false witnesses , either in externall action , or in internall desire , in which they must needs breake euery commandement ; who cannot by any one act , once in all their life , belieue , feare , praise , or loue God , as they ought ; who haue no inward grace , vertue , or iustice inherent , and infused in their soules ; but all sinne , deformity , pollution , rebellion , and contumacy against God , and his commandements ( which are also the very words of the foresaid Protestants cited by the foresaid authour ; ) who are as pointed faces , of themselues deformed , and only by colours made to shew faire ; as sepulchers of dead men outwardly whited ; but within dead bodies ; As wolues couered with the woll of sheep , but inwardly rauenous ; As foolish virgins who haue no oyle in their owne lampes , but thinke that others oyle shall suffice them ; As bodies stemed , and stinking with corruption of rottenesse , leprosy , and ordure , and only couered with faire cloathes made of the silke of Christs iustice : Such are all elect , iust , regenerate , and holy Protestants ; of such consists their congregations , & Church , and with such is filled their kingdome of heauen , & by such are Catholiks condemned and persecuted heere in England . Secondly , it followes that any faythfull , iust , and regenerate Protestant may ( in respect of any pitt of damnation ) as well commit theft , murder , adultery , periury , idolatry , sacriledge , incest , and all enormous vices , as exercise himselfe in abstinence , continency , iustice , almes-deeds , or , as read the Bible , heare a sermon , receaue the Communion , say his prayers , belieue , loue , or prayse God , and the like . For as both the one , and the other proceed from originall sinne , & are infected thereby with the staine of sinnes , and that mortall , deseruing eternall damnation ; so are neither the one , nor the other kind imputed to him for sinnes , nor are punished with damnation as sinnes . As both the one , and the other are damnable in the reprobate , and he for both shall be punished in hell , so neither the one nor the other are imputed to the elect , nor he for either can be hindred from heauē . As in both the elect , and reprobate , workes are not distinguished by the obiect , but by the person , being all mortall sinnes in themselues ; so in the reprobate all are mortall ; in the elect all veniall , all pardoned , none imputed , none punished . And as the good workes in the elect do not merit any reward of glory , nor satisfy for any punishment of sinne ; so the bad workes in the same elect shall not receaue any infliction of punishment , neither depriue him of any benefit of iustification ; both therefore the good & the bad are in themselues great sinnes , as proceeding from concupiscence , which is sinne , and as violating the law , but both are by fayth not imputed , both by the iustice of Christ couered , and so both in a sort indifferent to be committed or omitted , as both deseruing , and neither receauing punishment ; both being sinnes in themselues , and neither imputed for sinnes by God. Vpon what motiue or ground therefore of religion , either of displeasing God , or of hope of reward , or of feare of hell , can a regenerate Protestant be induced to auoid sinnes , rather then good workes , or to liue vertuously rather then vitiously , sith both are mortall sinnes , both mortally offend God , and both equally are not imputed , neither punished . Thirdly , it followes , that any faythfull and regenerate Protestant may according to the groundes of his fayth , commit any , or all the former sinnes , yea all the sinnes which any reprobate doth commit , and yet remaine a iust , regenerate , and perfect protestant . For if faith only doth iustify , & once had can neuer be lost by any sinne whatsoeuer , & if no sinnes be imputed , but all be by the same faith remitted ; then may he cōmit any , or all the said sinnes , and yet retaine faith and iustification , and keep his assurance of saluation , and so continue still a perfect regenerate Protestant , and is as high in perfection , as strong in faith , and as sure of saluation as any Saint is in heauen who neuer committed any of the same . What conscience therefore , or scruple will he make of any the said sinnes , sith he shall receiue by them no losse of faith , no detriment of iustice , no displeasure of God , no punishment of hell ? Fourthly , it followes , that in vaine , and to no end is all penance and sorrow for sinnes , all chastising of our bodies , which S. Paul vsed for sin , all fasting , sackcloth , hairecloth , or ashes , with Dauid , the Niniuites , Manasses , Achab , and others before Christ vsed for their sins ; That in vaine , & to no end is all forsaking the vanities , and pleasures of the world , all abnegation , resignation , mortification , and taking vp the crosse of Christ in deserts . Monasteries , & places secluded from the world , and chosen for practise of pouerty , obedience , & chastity , which S. Marke , S. Hilarion , S. Paul , S. Anthony , S. Gregory Nazianzen , S. Basil , S. Augustine , S. Benedict , S. Bernard , and so many ancient and holy Saints , and Religious persons since Christ haue euer vsed 1. because only faith doth iustify , and secure them of saluation , and doth take away all imputation of any sinne , or paine due to sinne , and so makes needlesse all satisfaction for sinne . 2. Because Baptisme , which ( according to Caluin , is to be ministred only to the faythfull ) doth remit all sinnes past and to come . 3. Because all these actes are sinnes , and that mortall , as well as feasting lusting , deceauing , killing , and the rest . Fiftly , it followes , that in vaine , and to no end are all lawes either of God , Church , or Commonwealth ; in vaine are all Tribunals , and Courtes spirituall , and temporall ; in vaine are all Iudges , and Magistrates appointed to correct & punish malefactours ; in vaine is all power , and iurisdiction of Princes or Prelates ; in vaine is all Regall authority , and commaund of Emperours , Kinges , and Princes , because all obseruance of any law , or of any one commandement , euen the least , is impossible , and a burthen ( sayth Caluin ) greater then Aetna ; because no Prince or Prelate hath any authority to make any law which shall oblige in conscience ; because by the liberty of the Ghospell euery Protestant is freed from any obligation in conscience , and from any lawes of any Prince , whereupon any malefactour guilty of murder , theft , or the like , may answere the Iudge , and alleadge their doctrine , that the lawes did not oblige in conscience , and were impossible to be performed , no freewill to do otherwise thē God had determined , no obligation in conscience to obey the Kinges Lawes , being freed by the liberty of the Ghospell ; that the Iudge hath no authority to execute that which the King had no authority to decree ; no iustice to punish him for that which God forced and willed him to do , and which he had no liberty , or power but to do ; no reason to hinder the liberty of his spirit graunted by the Ghospell . The traitour and Rebell may answere his King , and alledge out of the same liberty of this Ghospell , the same reasons , and say , that he is as free from obedience to his owne Prince as to a forain Prince , or from the lawes of his owne Country as of a forraine Country , may resist his Prince and his lawes , ryse and rebell against him , oppose and depose , yea kill and murther his person in case he do not iustice , obserue not his own law , defend not the common-wealth , or giue not free passage to the preaching of their Ghospel . Which ( as after shal be shewed ) they haue in Germany , France , Scotland , Belgia , Geneua , & other countryes , according to these groundes practised , and approued ; and which the Trinitarians , and Anabaptists do according to the same , yet positiuely maintaine and defend . In vaine therefore did God giue (a) to Kinges power from himselfe and vertue from the highest . In vaine do (b) Kings rule by God & makers of lawes decerne iu●t thinges . In vaine is (c) all power from God , and higher powers , to be obeyed . In vaine are we to be (c) subiect to higher powers not only for anger , but for conscience . In vaine are we admonished to (d) be subiect to Kinges and Rulers , and sent from God ; to be (e) subiect to Princes , and powers , to be (f) obedient to carnall Lordes , and Maisters in feare and trembling ; to (g) honour them with all honour ; to (h) giue to Caesar that which is Caesars . In vaine is the King made the head , and ruler of the common-wealth . In vaine doth he make lawes , inflict punishments , appoint Iudges , iustices , and Magistrates , sith subiects haue no liberty to obey , or not obey them ; no tye in conscience not to violate them ; but by the liberty of their Ghospell , are freed from all , and the thinges also are either impossible to be done , or if omitted , it is without any sinne , more then veniall at the most , that is , not imputed . In vaine and foolishly do they condemne Popes for assuming power to declare Princes deposed , or to depose them in case of extreme necessary to conserue the true fayth of God , and the right authority of the Church , or to preuent the grieuous calamity of the common good , sith euery one among them may doe the same , and more vpon his priuate authority , to right his owne priuate wronge . In vaine & foolishly doe they accuse , and condemne Popes for deposing Emperours , & Kinges , as Gregory the second did Leo Isauricus , Zachary did Chilpericke the King of France , Gregory the 7. did Henry the 4. Innocent the 3. did Otho the 4. Alexander the 2. did Iohn of England , and the like , since they themselues in so short a tyme haue deposed two Queenes in Scotland , one Bishop of Geneua , and by armes laboured to depose one Queene of England , two Kings of France , three Kinges of Spaine , three Emperours of Germany from their temporall right , and dominion . All which are lawfull , and warrantable , according to these grounds of their Fayth , that no lawes are possible , or oblige in conscience , that no bad workes are imputed , or hinder saluation , that the liberty of the Ghospell makes all actions free and voluntary , that only fayth doth iustify , and cannot be lost , that no man hath freewill , nor can do otherwise thē God hath decreed . Which positions ouerthrow all duety of obedience , and all obligation of duty to any Prince . Sixtly , it followes , that in vaine , and to no end are all consultations , and deliberations of thinges to be done , eithe● by priuate persons in their priuate affaires , or by publike Councellours of Princes for the publicke good , because all in both must be as God hath decreed , and man hath no more free-will to do otherwise then he is determined , then he hath not to be a man as he was created . In vaine are all precepts , and lawes of doing or not doing , going or staying , bargayning , buying , or selling , because man hath neither freedome of will , nor obligation in conscience to do them , more then to reach heauen with his fingar . In vaine are all exhortations either priuate or publicke , in sermons or in familiar speaches , by preachers , parents , or friends , either from euill , or to good , to one study or other , to one course of life or other , to one worke or other , because man hath no more power , or freedome of will to choose any of them , then he hath freedome to cure himselfe of the goute , or an ague , or restore his arme that is cut off . In vaine and to no end are either terrours , and threats of punishment , or promises , and hopes of reward either , prayses & commendations of good , and dispraises and reprehensions of bad deedes , because neither are any deeds in themselues good , but bad before God , nor is any man more free , and able to do the one , rather thē the other , then he is to moue mountaines , or to adde height to his stature . To what end therefore are Maisters offended with the negligence of seruants ? Doe parents correct the vndutifullnes of their children ? Do Princes punish the rebellion , or offences of their subiects ? Do Preachers reprehēd the vices of their auditours , or exhort them to workes of piety , and charity , disswade them from actions of sinne , and iniquity ? Sith the workes be both alike sinnes , do both alike violate the precept , and are both alike forgiuen , and not imputed , sith the lawes do not oblige in conscience , and are impossible to be kept , sith the parties haue no power , or freedome to do the one , more then the other ; but all as by the decree of God , and force of their originall concupiscence are forced , and necessitated to do it . Seauenthly , it followes , that in vaine , and to no end , doth any Protestant make any scruple of conscience ( which needes not , as a law to direct , as a thousand witnesses to accuse , as a iudge to condemne or cleare , as an executioner to torment and torture him , as it doth other men for their sinnes vnrepēted ) because where no sinne is imputed , where no Free-will is admitted , where no good worke , or obseruation of any commandement is possible , where no law of God or man doth oblige in conscience to performāce , what needs any conscience to torment , or trouble it selfe with the guilt of any law infringed , with the sting of any iniustice committed , with the scruple of any good worke omitted ; since neither the law could be fullfilled , nor the act could be preuented , nor any punishment shal be inflicted , nor God offended ? Why should therfore be studied any cases of conscience ? Why should be admitted any Chancery , or Court of conscience ? Why should there be any confession of sinnes secret , or any restitution of debts , and monyes secret , any forbearance of wrong secret , when there is no feare or shame of man ? Why shall therefore any Protestant in life , or at death trouble his conscience , or haue any scruple of any good worke omitted , of any secret murther committed , of any iniustice , rapine cruelty , periury , bribery , sorcery practised , or of any heresy , idolatry , or infidelity , of any Iudaisme , Turcisme , or Atheisme belieued , followed , or perswaded ? Surely he needes not , for one dramme of fayth , of speciall fayth , of apprehension of Christs iustice , compounded with an impossibility of performing the law , with the necessity of mans wil , with the liberty of the Ghospell , and with the certainty of present and future iustification , will purge all this melancholy , feare and scrupulosity , and leaue the soule cleare of any doubt , feare , timidity , or vncertainty of heauen , for any whatsoeuer sinnes , and offences howsoeuer , or by whomesoeuer committed . Out of all which former absurdities , we may obserue these differences betweene a Protestant and a Catholike , & a iust man of the one , and a iust man of the other ; that , 1. A Protestant belieues a fayth which neuer any Prince , Prelate , or people , neuer any Doctour , Confessour , or Martyr , neuer any Councell prouinciall , or generall belieued for 1500. and more yeares before Luther . The Catholike belieues the same which all Princes Christian , all Prelates and people reputed true Christians , all Confessours , Martyrs , and Saints , all Councels generall no fewer then eighten , and all prouinciall aboue 100. haue euer since Christ professed and belieued . Secondly , a Protestant belieues a fayth which falsifyeth and frustrateth the predictions of the Prophets , the promises of Christ , the preaching of the Apostles , the mission of Pastours , the succession of Prelates , the ordination of Priests the vertue of miracles , the constancy of Confessours , the purity of Virgins , the bloud of Martyrs , and the vnity , sanctity , antiquity , and vniuersality of the Catholicke Church ▪ the Catholike belieues and professes a fayth which verifies , and confirmes all the former , and in which they agree in beliefe , and profession with them all . Thirdly , the Protestants belieue a fayth which hath lesse authority , credibility , and motiues of persuasion , such as are miracles , vnity , vniuersality , and others to persuade , and make it credible , then hath the fayth of Iewes , Turkes , or Pagans : the Catholikes belieue that which hath vnity , visibility , vniuersality , antiquity , sanctity , prophecies , miracles , monuments of piety , charity , bounty , and all reasons of probability to persuade , and make it credible . Fourthly the Protestant is made iust by a speciall fayth , of which is no mention either in any Scripture , Tradition , Councell , or Father , and which neither Doctour , Father , Prelate , Prince , Prouince , people or person in the world before them belieued , and professed as a sauing , and iustifying fayth : the Catholicke is made iust by a Catholike fayth which hath beene generall , vniuersall , & wholy by all people , Prelates , and Princes , in all tymes and places acknowledged , and professed . Fifthly , the Protestāt is made iust by a fayth , by which all the seed and posterity of Abraham , Noe , and Adam , yea all Iewes , Gentils , Turks , Heretikes , & wicked blasphemers , idolaters , murtherers , sacrilegious and incestuous persons which haue beene , or shal be till the worlds end , may as well be saued and assured of their saluation , as they themselues : the Catholike is made iust by a fayth , by which only they who belieue truly , and liue piously , or repent and amend faithfully , can be iustified and saued . Sixthly , the Protestant is made iust by a speciall fayth , which is false , as belieuing many pointes for true which yet are contrary one to another ; which is contradictory , as houlding positions contradicting one another ; which is sinneful , as being a sinne and that mortall , as all their good works are ; which is presumptuous , presuming without grace to be made holy , without merit to attaine a reward , without mās owne labour , and concurrence to be crowned with the glory of heauen ; which is iniurious to hope which it destroies by certainty ; to charity which it maks impossible to do good workes , all which it turnes into sinnes , and that mortall : The Catholikes are iustifyed by a fayth which admits none of the former absurdities , but is true , humble , vniforme , pious , and a foundation for hope , charity , and good life . Seauenthly , the Protestant is iustifyed by a fayth which derogates from the redemption of Christ , making it neither vniuersall for all , nor perfect for any , nor able to cure one mā ; but is only an apprehension of iustice , only a couer for sinne , only a conceit that a man is iust , when he is assured he is vniust ; which makes Christ neither vpright lawyer , for that he makes lawes impossible to be kept ; nor iust Iudge for that he giues neither reward , or punishment according to deedes and deserts ; nor perpetuall Priest , for that he offers no sacrifice at all , or but only that one of the Crosse ; which makes Christ ignorant , getting by degrees knowledge as other men ; impotent not able to satisfy sinne but with suffering all the paines euen those of hell due to sinne ; inconsiderate , as making prayers & vowes vnaduised , and not premeditated ; sinnefull in staggering between praysing , and blaspheming God , betweene hope and feare of saluation , doubting and despairing of his owne saluation , and lastly damned in hell , and suffering all the paines therein which any damned do : The Catholike is iustifyed by a fayth which makes Christ a perfect Redeemer ( of his part ) of all men from all sinnes , & from all both guilte , and paine of sinne ; a iust law giuer in his lawes , which are easy , and in his iudgments which are according to euery mans workes ; a potent Sauiour , who by one action of his diuine person is able to satisfy for all sinne ; a person alwayes perfect in all knowledge , alwayes immaculate without any the least spot of sinne , and alwayes blessed , and glorified with the vision and fruition of God euen from his conception . And thus much a Protestant and Catholike differ in the points of a iustifying fayth . Looke further yet into the soule , and persons of the one and the other . 8. A iust Protestant hath originall sinne remayning in him ; a iust Catholike hath it taken away from him . 9. The one is inwardly infected , corrupted , and rotten in sinne ; the other is inwardly pure , sound , beautifull , & adorned with grace . 10. The one hath all his actions stained polluted , and made damnable by the infection of his original sinne ; the other hath many of his actions gracious , liuely , and made meritorious by grace . 11. The one in all his actions euen the best doth offend and displease God ; the other in all his actions which are not bad doth honour & please God. 12. The one by his good actions deserues nothing but eternall damnation ; the other by his good deedes deserues eternall saluation . 13. The one is iust only before man , and by God esteemed iust , though he be internally and indeed vniust ; the other is iust before God , and internally , and really indeed iust . 14. The one hath no deformity , or guilt of sinne washed , cured , or taken away , but only not imputed ; the other hath all guilt washed , cleansed , & abolished by inherent iustice & grace . 15. The one hath neither power , nor liberty to do any good worke ; the other assisted by grace , hath free-to do good . 16. The one cannot performe any one commandement ; the other by grace can performe them all . 17. The one cannot resist but yield to euery motion of concupiscence ; the other can , and doth by grace resist ill motions . 18. The one cannot loue God , praise him , feare , or honour him in any action ; the other can do it , by Gods grace in all his actions . 19. The one cannot increase in iustice or grace , but is as iust at the first instant of his iustification , as euer ; the other can , and doth become more iust , patient , humble , and charitable . 20. The one may commit any sinne , though of murder , adultery , blasphemy , heresy , or idolatry , and yet remaine iust , and not loose his iustice , nor the fauour of God ; the other may , and must auoid all the same , or the like sinnes least he loose grace , and be damned . 21. The one , let him do what he will , is sure he shal be saued , and cannot by any sinne be damned , except Christ be damned ; the other with feare and trembling doth labour to make his election and saluation , by good works sure . 22. The one needs to make no conscience of breaking any law of God , or man ; because neither oblige in conscience , and both are impossible to be performed : the other thinks himselfe tyed in conscience to performe both . 23. The one , though he sinne , needs no more but only by faith to assure himselfe his sinne is couered by the iustice of Christ , and not imputed to him : the other , if he sinne , must haue hope , charity , contrition , confession , and satisfaction , penance , and purpose of amendment to sinne no more . 24. The one laies all the burthen of his sinnes vpon Christ , and his satisfaction , and himselfe rests idle and secure : the other by the vertue of the same merit of Christ labours with all austerity to satisfy himselfe , as far as by grace he can , and to do his endeauour to pacify God. Now whether of these two estates , the former of the Protestant , or the later of the Catholick be more honourable to God , more agreable to piety , more worthy to be esteeme in themselues , and so more to be preferred by man , let the indifferent Reader iudge , and make choice . Of absurdities which follow vpon the fourth head , that is , of absolute predestination to damnation . SECT . V. SVBDIV. 1. Protestants doctrine of Predestination makes men desperate , and Atheists . OVT of the fourth principle , or daughter of his priuate spirit , and the issue or consequences ensuing therupon , which are , that God hath decreed and ordained , and that without any foresight , or respect to any sinne , originall of Adam , or actuall of man , that those who are damned , should be damned only because it was his will and pleasure , and for that end did likewise ordaine that they should sinne , did by his will and decree excite and compell them to sinne , by his motion did effect , and worke in them that sinne , and obdurate and harden them in sinne , necessitate them without free-will to sinne , command the diuell to solicit them to sinne & both the diuell , and other wicked persons , and the sinners themselues being only as instruments to effect this sinne , himselfe only being the chiefe worker of sinne ; wherby man hath no power but to sinne , no meanes of Christs merits to helpe him out of sinne , no benefit of vocation , faith or grace possible to cure his sinne ; and so vpon necessity , do what he will , he must sinne , be damned , and go to hell for his sins . Out of this doctrine , which in expresse wordes is Caluins & his fellowes , follow many absurdityes , both in respect of man who sins and is damned , & also in respect of God who makes him sinne , & damnes him . In regard of man two absurdities follow ; the one whereby some are made meere polititians and of no Religion at all , but libertines of any : another wherby others are made desperate without any hope or care of saluation , by any meanes in any Religion at all . The first absurdity of Politicians , is this : God from all eternity hath appointed , and determined of vs , without any respect of vs , or our workes , whether we shal be saued or damned . If we shall be saued , he will saue vs : if damned , he will damne vs ; both which as he hath decreed without vs , so both he will effect without vs. Infallibly , therfore as God hath decreed without vs ; so shal we be saued , or damned do what we can . What therefore haue we to do with eternity of saluation or damnation ? VVhat with fayth , or Christ the meanes thereunto , but leaue that to God , and his ordination ; let vs follow our temporall commodities , and imbrace our sensuall pleasures , which are in our power , let vs cast off all consideration of heauen , or hell , and leaue that to God as he ordained , disposed , and reserued to his owne will and power . Thus may they reason , & that consequently out of the former principle ; and thus haue both Libertins , & Politicians reasoned , and thereupon inferred that with Catholikes they may be a Catholike , with Lutherans a Lutheran , with Caluinists a Caluinist , with Iewes a Iew , with Turkes a Turke , and so with any may be of any Religion . Vpon this ground sprung Atheisme , which acknowledges neither any God , nor any religion ; Paganisme which worships many Gods , and is of any Religion ; Samaritans who made a religion mixt of Iewes & Gentills ; Turcisme which obserues a Religion mixt of Iewes , Gentills , and Christians ; Libertines in S. Augustines tyme who made no important difference betweene the Religion of Catholikes and Donatists : and many both Libertins and Politicians in this tyme , who admit saluation in any Religion and profession , and thereby inferre , and practise a contempt of all piety , and religion , a liberty of all sinne and dissolution of life , and a carelesnesse of heauen , & all heauenly cogitations . All which as fruit of one tree , do by necessary sequell follow out of this doctrine of predestination which the priuate spirit inuented , Caluin diuulged , Machiauell confirmed , and the Diuell by all liberty of sinne , and rebellion hath increased and propagated . The second absurdity , which is of men made desperate by this doctrine , which is the mother of desperation , is this reason and consequence by which they infer thus : I am either predestinate , or reprobate ; if predestinate it auails nothing to liue wel or ill , because necessarily I shal be saued ; if reprobate it auailes as litle to liue well or ill , because certainly I must be damned : necessarily therefore liue I well or ill , I must be saued or damned . VVhat therefore need I care or do , but enioy my lust , and liberty , sith neither good life can hinder hell , or help to heauen if I be reprobate ; nor bad life hinder heauen or further hell , if I be elect : if therefore I be reprobate necessarily shall I be damned , what hope therefore can I haue of saluation ? Thus out of this ground did a Religious man of S. Augustines Monastery in his tyme reason , & by the force therof foorsooke his Cloister , returned to the world , liued wickedly , and dyed desperatly . Out of the same motiue did Lewis a Lands-graue in Caesarius tyme liue wickedly , and reason thus desperatly : If I be predestinate , no sinnes can barre me of Heauen ; if reprobate , no good workes can help me to heauen ; if I be appointed at a certaine day to dy , I can neither by good life make longer my life , nor by bad life preuent my death . And he was in danger to haue dyed thus , if a wise Phisitian had not in his sicknesse by this reason cured his soule : If your day be come , certainly you must dye , if not , you need not my help . Vpon which the Landsgraue yet pressing him for help of phisicke , he further inferred : If you can preserue your life by phisicke , though your day be appointed , why can you not saue your soule by Contrition , though your end be predestinate ? By which reason the Landsgraue saw his errour , and was brought to Contrition , and confession , and that perhaps with better successe then if he had answered as a Diuine might , and should , thus : That if you be predestinate to saluation by meanes appointed by God , then certainly you shall be saued if you vse and apply those meanes , as by Gods grace you may ; and if you be reprobate , and appointed to be damned it is for your sins freely committed , & then certainly you shal be damned if you commit these sinnes which you may auoid if you will. By which solution as a iust man cannot presume ; so a sinner needes not despaire , but both , with fe●re and trembling ought to worke their saluation , howsoeuer by God they be predestinate . Thirdly , It followes , because a man is thus by the decree , and hand of God necessitated to do what God hath by his immutable , and ineuitable will determined and appointed ; that he h●th no freedome of will ; freedome , I say , not of grace as iust , by which he is freed from the seruitude of all sin , nor of glory , as blessed , by which he is freed from the miseries of this life , both which are in the next , not in this life : but no freedome of nature , by which his wil hauing al things prerequired to do , may yet freely do , or not do . No freedome either in things naturall , as to speake , or to be silent , to walke or stand : or in things morall , as to giue or not giue almes ; or in things supernaturall as by grace to loue God , or not loue him , to sinne or not sinne against God. No freedome either of contradictiō , or quoad exercitium , by which he may do or not do any action , as to moue , or not moue : or of contrariety , and quoad specificationem , by which he may prosecute any obiect good , as to loue his neighbour ; or bad , as to hate him . It followes , I say , that a man hath no freedome or liberty either of contradiction , or of contrariety , either in things naturall morall , or supernaturall . And as man hath no freewill at all in any action ( which both followes from their positions and they grant ; ) so it followes , that in vaine is all labour in man , either to exercise vertue , or to auoide vice . In vaine is all penance or mortification to bridle his concupiscence , or passion . In vaine are all exhortations to piety , and deuotion , and all disswasions from sinne and iniquity , because man hath no freedome of will , nor power & ability to do either the one or the other , or the one , rather then the other : but all necessarily must be done as God hath appointed , and doth worke it . It followes , that no lawes or precepts of God or man to bid or forbid , can be iust . No tribunals of Princes or Prelates to punish offenders , and reward well-doers , can be vpright ; because they are imposed on them who haue no liberty to do , or not do them ; and leaue neither possibility nor obligation to be performed by man. It followes that there can be no vertue in doing well , or vice in doing ill , no iust iugment in rewarding of good , or in punishing of bad , no crowne of glory in heauen for iust actions , or torment of paine in hell for vniust ; because in man is no indifferency , liberty , or freedome to do the one rather then the other ; but is necessitated by the will of God to do that to which he is ordeined . It followes , that no contracts of marriage , which require a free consent without feare or force , can be valid . No temptation to sinne , against which is no power or liberty , can be auoided . No lawes against malefactours for any crimes , because they are not in their power not to do them , can be executed . That no difference remaines betweene a man and a beast , for where is no free election there is no will , where is no will there is no reason , where no reason , there is no difference betweene a man & a beast ; why therfore are sins prohibited , lawes established , sermons preached more to men then to beasts , sith men haue no more liberty to do or not do , to obey or not obey them , then beasts ? Why are actions of lust , killing , and murdering punished in men , not in beasts , sith men haue no more freedome to absteine from them , then beasts ? Why is man rather commanded to absteine from concupiscence , then the fier is from burning ? Why more from swearing then the sunne frō shining ? Why more from lying and stealing then the sea from ebbing and flowing ? Why is he commanded to loue God aboue all more then to touch heauen with his fingar ; to keepe the sabboth from working , more then to keepe his yeares from increasing ? Why not to sinne rather then not to be sicke , sith to the one he hath no more power , or ability , liberty , or freedome , then to the other ? Which doctrine how high it blocketh vp the way to all vertue , and piety , and how wide it openeth the gappe to all vice , and liberty shall after be shewed . How contrary it is to al authority of holy scripture , how iniurious to God , & preiudicious to man I leaue to be seen in other authours ; how forcible the cōmon consent of all sortes of people is against it , S. Austine shal witnesse , who sayes that the sheepheards in the mountaines , the Poets on the stages , the people in the market , the learned in the libraries , the maisters in the schooles , the Prelates in the pulpits , and all mankind in the whole world do blase out the freedome of mans will , which is so certaine that , saith he , if there be sinne there must be freedome , because sinne is so voluntary , as that it is no sinne if it be not voluntary . How euidently , euen by common sense , and experience , it is to be proued , I will referre him who will deny it , to Scotus his sensible demonstration , who with blowes not reasons , with cudgels not arguments would haue it proued to him till he confesse he hath liberty , and freedome to cease from beating him . And how little credit is to be giuen to the teachers of this doctrine in other high pointes of faith aboue reason , who so grosly faile in this so manifest both to reason , and sense , I will referre to the iudgment of the indifferent reader : and so passe from the absurdities of this Protestant Predestination touching man , to the same as they concerne God , and his goodnes . SVBDIV. 2. Protestant doctrine of Predestination , makes God the authour of sinne . HOW iniurious , & blasphemous this doctrine of Gods absolute Predestination to sinne , and damnation , is to God , and how much it doth derogate from his nature , goodnesse , and iustice shall by these ensuing sequels , and absurdities appeare , in that it makes God , 1. The authour of sinne . 2. Sinfull . 3. Only sinfull , 4. A lying and dissembling sinner . 5. A most cruell tyrant . 6. Not a God , but the very diuel himselfe . All which shal appeare as euidently deduced out of the former doctrine : so that if it be true , which many of them teach , that , as we belieue scripture , so we must belieue consequences euidently deduced out of it , both as points of faith ; so in like manner as they belieue the former doctrine of Gods absolute and irrespectiue decree of mans Predestination to damnation , and sinne ; they must also belieue these consequences euidently deduced out of the same : first . That God is made by this doctrine the authour of sinne , and , not only as the Manichees made him a bad God , the authour of bad ; nor as Florimus did make him the good God , the authour of a bad substance : but as Simon Magus did make him the authour of al bad actions and wicked works , is proued . 1. Because God , according to the defenders of this doctrine , doth by his absolut and irresp●ctiue ( as M. Montague calles it ) Will , predestinate men to eternall damnation . 2. Because God by a secret motion doth compell and necessitate the same men to all sinnes that therby he may haue an occassion to condemne , and punish them . 3. Because God doth commaunde , vrge , & incite the diuell to tempt , and induce them to sinne . 4. Because that therfore God is the authour of all sinnes which are by these men commited . 5. Because God not content with this cruelty doth diuers wayes delude men in shew , exteriourly calling , and offering his grace ; but interiourly denying , and detaining them from grace . 6. Because God for that end to damne them depriues them of freewill that they cannot repent , and of all benefits of the merits of Christ , and of grace , that they can haue no meanes to be saued . 7. Because God neuer frees them from originall sinne , into which he had cast them ; but leaues it in them to corrupt al their actions , & make them sinfull . 8. Because God for these sinnes made them vnable to keepe any the least commandement . 9. Because from these sinnes God neuer frees them , but only couers the sinne , imputes the person iust , and so saues all the elect . All which reasons are positions in expresse words affirmed , especially by Caluin ( cited at large by Becanus ) by Luther , Melancthon , Sanctius , Martyr , Beza , VVhitaker , Perkins , and other prime Protestants , cited in their owne words by Doctour Smith , and are confessed by Doctour Montague , in his appeale to Caesar , and condemned by Lutherans , as well as Catholicks . Out of which doctrine it followes , 1. That those actions which we esteeme sinnes , as idolatry , periury , adultery , murder , theft ▪ pride , malice , and the rest , are no offences against God , because he wils , commands , and works them himselfe . 2. That they are no sinnes , because sinne is against the will and law of God , but these are according to the will , decree , and commandement of God , which is the rule according to which all actions are to be squared . 3. That sinne is nothing but , as the Libertins confuted by Caluin do hould , an opinion of men , because it is not contrary , but conformable to the will , decree , and commandement of God. 4. That God in words forbidding sinne , and these actions as sinne , doth either dissemble , as inwardly willing and working that which exteriourly he prohibits , or els is contrary to himsele , as willing , and not willing the same sinnes . 5. That if there be any sins at all , then God who is the principall authour , & agent , and not man who is the instrumēt only , is the sinner & offender . 6. That men are excusable in committing any or all the foresayd actions , because they do that which God wils & works , and which themselues cannot but worke . 7. That no credit can be giuen to the word of God in Scripture , because God may as well lye in it , as he doth in other bookes of Pagans or Heretikes , of both which he is equally the principal authour and dictatour . All which absurdities as they are most horrible and blasphemous , so do they all necessarily follow vpon the former Protestant positions , and must needs be true , if the former Protestant doctrine , and positions be true . SVBDIV. 3. Protestant doctrine of Predestination , makes God a sinner . SECONDLY , that God is by this doctrine not only the authour of sinne , but a very sinner , and worker , not only of the materiall entity , or action by which sinne is cōmitted , but also of the formall malice , or defect of goodnesse in which sinne consisteth , and so is formally a sinner , and committer of sinne according to this doctrine , is proued . 1. Because the teachers of this doctrine , as before , call God the principall authour , actour , and the worker of sinne : but as sinne is ( in like manner as a picture ) a denominate concreet , including the malice as the forme , and the action as the matter of sinne , as the picture doth the forme of a man , and the matter of colours of which it is made ; so he that affirms God to be the author or worker of sinne , doth as properly affirme him to be the authour of the malice in sinne , as the painter is sayd to be the authour & worker of the forme of the picture : and so God is as properly a sinner , by being the authour and worker of sinne , as the workmā is a painter by being the authour , and worker of the picture . And though in the Catholike doctrine God is no more a sinner in that he is in somesort the efficient cause of the reall entity of the sinnefull action ( to which as the authour of Nature , he concurs with man as an vniuersall and indifferent agent to any action ) then the soule is the authour of the lamenesse in the legge , or the writer the cause of the ill writing of the penne ( the defect o● formality of sinne proceeding from the particular agent , man , who is the deficient cause , as the formall lamenesse , or ill writing proceeds from the legge , & penne , in whome is the defect of lamenesse , or writing : ) Yet in the Protestant doctrine ( which makes God the authour of sinne formally as sinne , thereby to shew his iustice in punishing sinne as sinne , and sinnefull men for sinne ) it cannot be auoided but that God is a sinner , as the authour of sinne , and that formally as sinne : and if it would excuse God from being a sinner in that he wills , and workes sinne for a good end to shew his iustice , then it would also excuse man from sinne in that he sinned for a good end , as if he stole to giue almes , or kild a man to send him to heauen , by which reason euill might be committed that good might come thereupon , which is contrary to S. Paul. Secondly , because the same teachers make God the principall willer , commander , and worker of sinne , who , that he may iustly punish men for sinne , ( whome he hath vpon his owne meere will , without any preuision of their sinne , ordained , and created to be punished , and damned ) doth therefore ordaine , will , command , & worke sinne , & doth force , & necessitate them to sinne , that for the same sinne he may execute his decree of damnation vpon them : but whosoeuer is the principal willer , commander , and worker of sinne must needes be a sinner , and more properly a sinner thē the instrument which is vsed , or the subiect in which the sinne is committed , that is , man. Therefore God must be a sinner , properly a sinner , and more properly a sinner then man , yea and the greatest sinner of all sinners , as the chiefe willer , commander , and worker of all sinnes : which is a horrible blasphemy . SVBDIV. 4. Protestant doctrine of Predestination , makes God the only sinner , THIRDLY , that God is by this doctrine not only a sinner , but also the only sinner , and that the Diuell , & Man are innocent , and no sinners at all , is proued . Because if the Diuell in tempting to sin be ruled by the will of God , to whose command he obeyes ; If in alluring to sinne , he be cōpelled to obey , and do what God doth compell him to do ; And if the wicked who sinne are not excusable in that they cannot auoid the necessity of sinning , which by the ordination of God is imposed vpon them , as Caluin affirmes ; If Iudas did necessarily betray Christ , and Herod & Pilate did necessarily condemne him , as Beza affirms ; If the thiefe be compelled to steale by the compulsion of God that for the theft he may be hanged , as Zuinglius affirmes : then surely is not the thiefe who is compelled , but God who cōpels both the Diuell to set on the thiefe , and the thiefe who steales , the sinner who sinnes . For if the goodnesse and badnesse of the worke in euery action is to be attributed to the principall authour , willer , and worker of it , not to the instrument ( especially such as want freewill ) vsed in working it , as the well building of the house is to the architect , not to the axe and tooles ; then is the malice of sinne to be imputed to God the principal and chiefe authour , not to man , only the enforced instrument of it , and so only God is the sinner , and man innocent , and no sinner at all . Which is also confirmed out of that saying of S. Augustine , that sinne is so voluntary , that except it be voluntary it is not sinne : but it is voluntary only in God , according to these teachers , not in man , in whom it is necessary , therefore it is a sinne only in God , not in man. SVBDIV. 5. Protestant doctrine of Predestination , makes God alyer and dissembler . FOVRTLY , That God is , by this doctrine of these Doctours , a great lyer , and a deepe dissembler , and deluder , that is , that either God , or these Doctours must be lyers , or dissemblers ; is proued : Because the words of God in holy scripture , & of these Protestant doctours in this point are contradictory ; therfore if Gods word be true , theirs must be false , or if theirs be true , then must Gods be false , and so God must be either a lier in speaking vntruly in scripture , or a dissembler in speaking one thing & intending another , or they strang lyers in belying him . That Gods word & theirs are contradictory is apparent by these instances . First , God saies , that (a) he wils not inquity , that (b) he hateth iniquity , that (c) he hateth sinnes , that (d) both the wicked and his wickednesse is hatefull to him , that (e) Salomon did that which was not liked before our Lord , that (f) Dauid did displease him , the one for his idolatry , the other for numbring the people : but these Protestant Doctours say the contrary : Caluin sayes , that (g) God wils and is authour of sinne ; (h) willed the sinne of Adam , and fall of man ; that (i) Pharao's cruelty pleased God Beza sayes , that (k) God wils and decrees euill and the damnation of man ; that (l) God wils and is pleased with that , which he doth reuenge , and punish . Peter Martyr sayes , that (m) God wils sinne , as a meane to his end , hates not sinne which he workes . Perkins sayes , that (n) God willed the sinne and fall of Adam , wils that sinne be committed . Bucanā sayes , that (o) God wills sinne by his secret , and well-pleasing will ▪ All which if they be true , then the former sayings of God are false , and so God lyes , or dissembles , of if Gods be true , theirs are false . Secondly , God sayth , (p) that he hath not done iniquity ; that (q) he will not do iniquity ; that (r) they erre that worke euill ; that (s) he who commits sinne is of the Diuell ; that (t) he commaunds none to do wickedly ; that (u) he did not command the building of the high place of Balaam ; that (x) he doth not tempt any man to euill ; (y) Suffers none to be tempted aboue that which he is able . But contrary to all this Caluin sayes ; that (z) God not only permits , but commaunds euill , commands and compells the Diuell to be a lying spirit in the mouth of Prophets ; (a) workes the execration of the faithlesse ; (b) Is the cause of obduration ; (c) of Pharao's obduration and cruelty ; that (d) wickednesse committed by man proceeds from God ▪ Luther sayes , that (e) God workes in vs good and euill , and works euill by vs. Melancthon sayes , that (f) the treason of Iudas was as proper a worke of God , as the conuersion of S. Paul Beza sayth , that (g) God doth worke in vs obduration , and is the cause of it . Sāctius sayes , that (h) God is the chiefe authour of obduration , doth worke good and euill in vs ; (i) doth reward his owne good , & punish his owne ill workes in vs ; that (k) sinne as sinne , and malum culpae , is preordained of God ; that (l) God ordained men to damnation , and their sinnes to damne them , forsooke them and denyed them grace that they might sinne ; (m) compelleth to wickednesse mediatly by himself , and by his speciall action . Peter Martyr sayes , that (n) God doth solicite to deceaue ; (o) doth compell to great sinnes , to lye , to seduce . All which if they be true , then the former sayings of God in Scripture are false , and so God is a lyer , a deluder , or a dissembler , or they foule lyers . Thirdly , God sayth in Scripture , that (p) he wils not the death of the wicked ; that (q) he will not haue any to perish ; that (r) it is not his will , that one of these litle ones perish ; (s) but will haue all to be saued , and come to the knowledge of the truth . He commaunds that (t) none shall worship strang Gods , that none commit murder , adultery , and theft ; (u) he persuades the wicked to repent , to be conuerted , and repent from their iniquity , and to sinne no more ; (x) he inuiteth , calleth , and stretcheth out his hands ; and ( y ) would gather sinners vnder his winges , as a Henne doth her chickins ; (z) he would haue all to come to him . But Caluin sayes that (a) God did ordaine , and predestinate many , yea the most to damnation , and created them for that end , for no desert or sinne in them , but only for that his will was so to haue it ; (b) did create them as organs of his anger to destruction of death , and that they might come to that end , did either depriue them of power to heare the word of God , or did blind and dull them in hearing it , doth direct his voice to them not to that end that they may heare ▪ but to that end that they may be made more stupid ; that (c) he calls them only by word , and after a humane manner , not because he would haue them come . Beza sayes , (d) (d) he will not haue the reprobate conuerted and saued , who are not able to haue any will to be conuerted . Piscator sayes , (e) he maks shew in words to will that which he wils not , and not to will that which he wil , & so doth he vse holy dissembling . Beza sayes , (f) he commandes that which he will not haue done , and promiseth that which he will not performe ; that (g) he doth not loue all ; (h) neuer did , nor euer will haue mercy on all ; that (i) he would not haue the death of Christ to profit the reprobate ; (k) will not haue the reprobate conuerted and saued , and that they cannot haue any will to be conuerted . Zanctius sayes , (l) He calls all according to his outward will , and preaching of the Ghospell , but according to his secret will , neither would , nor will haue all to come , and be saued . Perkins sayes , (m) he will not , nor hath so much as any will or velleity , no not conditionally , that all be saued . And therefore it is not true to say , that God will haue all saued . And that when S. Paul sayth so , he speaketh according to the charitable opinion of men , not according to Gods will. All which wordes of these Protestant Doctours , as they contradict the wordes of God ( for that God doth not will , command , and worke euill ; and that he doth will , worke , and compell to euill ; that God hates , & is displeased with sinne , iniquity , and sinfull persons ; and that he wils , decrees , and ordaines the same ; that God inuites , calles , desires , & wils the saluation of all ; and that he detaines , and withouldes men from coming to be saued , are quite opposite and contradictory one to another ; ) so therefore must either this Protestāt doctrine be false if Gods be true , or if theirs be true , Gods must be false , and God either a lyer , or a dissembler . He that desires to see more of these expresse contradictions betweene the expresse word of God in holy Scripture , and the Protestant Doctours in their writinges , let him peruse the foresaid Collation , where he shall find at large Gods expresse wordes , that God wills not iniquity , their expresse wordes , that God wills iniquity ; Gods words , that God doth not worke iniquity , their wordes , that God doth worke iniquity ; Gods words , that he doth not cōmand man to sinne ; their words , that God doth command a man to sinne ; Gods words , that God doth not tempt to euill ; their wordes ▪ that he doth tempt to euill ; Gods wordes , that God doth hate all who worke iniquity , and their wordes , that he d●t● no● ha●e them ; Gods wordes , that he doth not ●ustify a wicked man remaining wicked ; their wordes , that he doth iustify such a one ; Gods word , that he is angry with the faythfull when they sinne ; their word , that he is not angry with them ; Gods word , th●t God is delighted with good workes ; their wordes , that he is not delighted with good workes ; Gods words , that God is worshipped with good works ; their wordes , that he is not worshipped with them ; Gods wordes , that God is pacifyed , & pleased with good workes ; their wordes , that he is not pacifyed , nor pleased with them ; Gods words , that God will haue his Commandments kept ; their wordes , that he will not haue them kept ; Gods words , that God will haue mercy vpon all men ; their wordes , that he will not haue mercy on all men ; Gods wordes , that God doth loue all men ; their wordes , that he doth not loue all men ; Gods words , that he will haue all men to be saued ; their wordes ▪ that he will not haue all men to be saued ; Gods wordes , that God wills not the death of a sinner ; their words , that God wils the death of a sinner ; Gods wordes , that God made not death ; their wordes , that he made death ; Gods wordes , that God hath no need of sinners ; their wordes , that God hath need of sinners ; Gods wordes , that God damnes men for their sinnes ; their wordes , that he doth not damne them for their sinnes ; Gods wordes , that God can do all thinges ; their wordes , that God cannot do all thinges . All which contradictions being in the forecited booke , & place expressed in the wordes of God in Scripture , & in the wordes of the authours themselues out of their owne writings , and that only in one article , concerning God ( to omit many other such like contradictions concerning Christ , Scripture , Church , Sacraments , Fayth , good Workes in generall and , particuler , Sinnes , Iustification , Free-will , the Commandements , Heauen , Hell , and others in particuler to the nūber of 250. in the same authour expressed in the wordes of Scripture and the Protestant authours themselues ) do euidently conuince that in most points of controuersies expresse Scripture is against them ( of which also some particuler instances are giuen in the former part of this Treatise ) and that they doe make God , who is truth it selfe , a false , lying , or dissembling God in his holy word , & holy Scripture which they would seeme so much to esteeme , and honour . SVBDIV. 6 Protestant Doctrine of Predestination , makes God a most cruell Tyrant . THAT this Protestant doctrine doth make God cruel , most cruell , and more cruell then any Tyrant in this world , shall by these their positions , and doctrine , before proued , appeare . 1. In that they affirme God to haue imposed vpon man lawes impossible by him to be performed , as the ten Commandements ; and for the breach of them to haue inflicted paines intollerable , as hell-fier . 2. In that they affirme , God to haue ordeined , appointed , and created , & that vpon his owne meere will , and pleasure , without any demerit so much as in them foreseene the greater part of mankind to be damned for euer in the torments of hell . 3. In that he hath taken from these men freedome of will , and ordained , decreed , forced , and necessitated these men to sinne , that for this si●ne he might damne them , and for the same hath damned , and doth still damne many . By which doctrine is taken away from God his chiefest attribute of mercy which is aboue all his workes , and is attributed to him the chiefest property of the Diuell , which is extreme cruelty . For first , if God do make lawes which are impossible to be kept , and inflict punishment which is intollerable to be endured for the breach of them ; then are Gods lawes more seuere then were the laws of Draco the Athenian , who made lawes so cruell , that he inflicted death equally vpon all offences as well lesse as greater , as well for taking a bunch of grapes , as for stealing a great treasure , as well vpon those who were only idle , as vpon those who were murderous , because , sayd he , the least offence deserued death , & a great offence could not haue a greater punishment then death ; for which Demades sayd , such lawes were to be writ not with inke , but with bloud ; and Solon did after seauenteene yeares abrogate them all , and made new : but according to this doctrine Gods lawes inflict a death not temporall but eternall , and paines not for an hower but for euer , as well for euery idle word as for an horrible murder , as well for stealing a penny as a thousand pounds , as well for an vnuoluntary suggestion to sinne ; as a voluntary consent , act , or custome of sinne ▪ and which is more , for not doing that which was impossible for them to do , or for committing that which God himselfe forced them to commit . Memorable are the tyrannies of the Herods in holy Scripture . Of Herod the King , who to kill one most innocēt , kild all the innocent children about (a) Bethleem . Of Herod the Tetrarch , who to please a dancing Wench , cut off the head of a holy S. Iohn Baptist . And of Herod ●grippa , who to please the people kild S. Iames , & would haue kild S. Peter if the Angell had not freed him out of prison . Memorable are the crueltyes of Adonibezec , who cut off the fingars and toes of 70. Kinges , and fed them with scraps vnder his table . Of Abimelec , who kild vpon one stone the seauenty sonnes of Ieroboall . Of Amman , who would haue kild all the Iewes in all the kingdome of assuerus in one day . Memorable were the cruelties of Hannibal , who of dead bodies of the Romans made a bridge ; and of his wife , who said that a Ditch full of bloud was a gratefull spectacle . Of Mythridates , who with one letter caused foure score thousand Roman Merchants to be kild at one tyme in Asia . Of the Hetrurians , who tyed the bodies of the liuing Romans to the dead , that the one might dye by corruptiō of the other . Of Atrius , who kild , cut in peeces , boiled , and set before his brother Thyestas his owne children to eate . Of Ptolomy of Aegypt , who kild his owne sonne Memphis borne of his owne sister and wife , Cleopatra , and sent the head , handes , and feet to his mother for a present . Of the Emperour Ner● , who set Rome on fire , desired to see all the world on the like fire , and wished that all the Cittizens had but one head , that he might cut it off at one blow . Of Caligula , who held that it was lawfull for him to do what he list with any man. Of Tiberius , who kild the most of the Senatours of Rome , and left Caligula his successour , because he hoped he would kill the rest , and exceed him in cruelty . Memorable were the tyrannies of Phalaris of Aegrigentum , who tormented men in a fiery bull . Of Diomedes of Thrace , and of Busciris of Aegypt , who gaue their guests to be deuoured by their horses , & fed them commonly with mans flesh . Of Dionysius of Syracusa , of Anno of Carthage , of Eliarcus of Heraclea , of Hyparchus of Athens , all who deuised torments the more cruelly to kill their subiects ; and of the persecuting Emperours , who sought all new deuises of tormenting by racke , wheels , renting , brusing , and by lingring death , the more cruelly to execute the bodyes of the innocent Christians . Wherupon the Philosophers sayd , Cruelty is hatefull to God , a monster of madnesse and misery ; that cruelty , and equity cannot be ioyned togeather ; that cruelty is a wickednesse not humane , but bestiall , and which cannot stand with equity . But of all crueltyes the most memorable , yea horrible , and not imaginable , if the Diuell himselfe had not inuented and deuised it , is this cruelty which they impose vpon God , who is a God so good , so clement , so pittifull , and so mercifull , that (a) his mercy is aboue all his works , and (b) from generation to generation ; that he disposes all things in mercy , and doth with good thinges fill the earth , that he shou●d not only impose lawes vpon man aboue his ability , (c) & for the breaking of these laws should inflict hell-paines , but also that he should will , (d) ordaine , decree , predestinate , yea and create , and that certainly , ineuitably , and immutably , as the prime and principal cause , only because it was his m●ere will and pleasure , the greatest parte of mankind , that is , al who are damned to eternal death , destruction , and damnation in those intollerable paines of hell-fier for all eternity . And that he did will , command , worke , yea and compell and necessitate man to sinne , that for this sinne he might punish and damne him eternally in hell . This certainly is such a cruelty , that if it were true , it would follow that this good God was more cruell then the former tyrants euer were ; for they put men to a temporall death , God to an eternal . They kild men whom they found in their kingdome , God created and made men that he might damne them eternally . They puld downe them whom they had exalted , God exalted these to his liknesse for that end that he might cast them downe to the deepest hell . They murdered a few ōly of their subiects , God the greatest part of the world . They kild them , against whome they conceiued displeasure , or such as had offended them ; God damnes thē who haue no way offended him , or sinned , yea whom he forces to sinne , that for that sinne he may damne them . They punished with great punishment small offences , God with eternall punishment no offences . They punished with death men who did otherwise , one way or other , both deserue death and must dy ; God damnes them who otherwise then for his will and pleasure were not to be damned : as much therfore as the number is greater , the punishment more grieuous , and the cause of their damnation lesse ; so much is God by these doctours made more cruel , and tyrannicall then any of the former tyrants . If it were a horrible cruelty for a King to call thousands of his subiects out of the Country to the Court , and there to grace , and giue them dignity , only for that end , that , when he had thus graced them , he might presently , without any fault committed by them , torture , torment , and with all cruelty by his owne hands murder , and butcher them alone after another ; then surely a greater cruelty it is in God to create , and bring out of nothing so many millions of soules as are , or shal be in hell tormented , & to exalte them to the dignity of his owne liknesse , in memory , will , and vnderstanding , and to enrich them with so many benefits of nature , & grace , only for that end that without any desert , or offence in them , he may in those intollerable flames eternally himselfe torment them ; yea to cause , compell , and force them to commit such acts of sinne , that for the same he may thus punish and damne them . Surely this is a cruelty ●nd tyranny so great , that a greater cannot be conceiued to be in the diuell , nor yet be imagined by the diuell himselfe : and yet these Protestant doctours do not only impute it vnto God , but wil haue it to be a property of God , and to stand with his mercy . Indeed if to make lawes not impossible to be performed , if to oblige men to do thinges impossible to be done , if to command men to do a worke , and then to deny them meanes to do it , if to command and will men , yea to force and compel them , to do some action , and then to punish them for doing the same , and that with such horrible paines as of hell : If this I say , be mercy and mildnesse , be grace and goodnes , then what can be seuerity , iniustice , cruelty , and tyranny ? If this be Gods mercy , pitty , clemency , longanimity , grace and goodnes to man ; what is his iustice , and seuerity ? what is , or can be cruelty , and tyranny ? If these be his wayes of mercy , what are his wayes of iustice ? If to punish cura condignum , and to reward vltra condignum , that is , to punish lesse and reward more then is deserued , be a property of mercy , which all attribut to God ; then to punish without desert , yea to cause and force a man to do euill , and then to punish him for it , is surely no mercy ; yea no iustice , but vnspeakable cruelty , and intollerable iniustice . Surely if this may be accounted mercy , it is a mercy which is mercilesse , a mercy which brings all misery , and makes millions most miserable . A mercy which makes mercy ste● more then seuere iustice , mercy & most extreme iniustice ; mercy and most inhumane cruelty , all one ; for what greater iniustice , and cruelty can there be in a tyrant , or a diuell then to choose , and picke out so many millions of soules , and without any cause giuen by them , to ordaine , appoint , and put them into eternall paines of hell-fire , there to fry for all eternity , and to debarre them of all meanes , or ability either of the merits of Christ , or of freedome in themselues , or of any other helpes , or meanes whatsoeuer to auoid the same , so that vpon necessity they must sinne , and deserue damnation , & vpon necessity must for that sinne be dāned ? O mercilesse mercy ! O vniust iustice ! nay , O cruell cruelty of all cruelties , the gre●test that cruelty it selfe could conceiue , or the Diuel himself can either deuise or execute . Far be it from thee , O God of mercy , who works all in mercy , and whose mercy is aboue all thy works . SVBDIV. 7. Protestant doctrine of Predestination , makes God a Diuell . LASTLY that this Protestant doctrine doth transforme God into a Diuell , and so doth depriue him of his only , and all goodnes , and therby transpose him into the greatest and vilest euill that can be , shall by these ensuing reasons appeare . 1. It is the office or property of Satan to ●empt man to sinne , yea as an aduersary to lay traps to ensnare man in sinne , for which in greeke he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a tempter , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an entrapper or calumniator , and in hebrew Sathan , an aduersary , and so he is called (a) tempter , is said to (b) tempt vs , and to temp the hart to lye to the holy ghost (c) . But this is more proper to God according to this Protestant doctrine , then to the Diuell . 1. Because God doth not only tempt and moue a man to sinne , but which is more , doth will , ordaine , and predestinate a man to sinne , and to al the sinnes which are committed . 2. Because God is not only our aduersary to oppose vs ; but so potently doth oppose vs in so weighty a matter as our greatest good , that he directly excludes most from all felicity , depriues most of all benefit of it , debarres most from all meanes to attaine it , & entraps most in all the snares , which may hinder their progresse vnto it ; & the Diuell is but only his instrument to worke that which he wils , and execute that which he before had designed against vs : therefore God is more our tempter , and aduersary then is the Diuell . Secondly , The office and property of the Diuell is to sow tares , or ill weeds of sinne in the field of our hearts , to choake vp all the corne of grace and goodnes , the enemy comes and sowes tares . But God doth this , according to this doctrine , more then the Diuell . 1. Because God doth worke inwardly in the hearts of sinners , doth excecate and obdurate the minds of men , doth strike them with a spirit of errour , giddinesse , and madnesse , and that not by permission , but operation , as Caluin in particuler affirmes . 2. Because God doth will , command , and worke in vs all the sinnes which are wrought , as the principall cause and mouer , the Diuell being only as the instrument , and that not free , but forced ; not mouing but moued ; and not able to do otherwise then by God he is both commanded , and compelled , as before ; therfore the chiefe and principall sower of ill seeds , and weeds of sinne is God , not the Diuell . Thirdly , The office , and property of the Diuell is to be authour of all sinnes in generall sinne is of the Diuell : and of lying in particuler , who speakes lies of himselfe , and is a lier , the Father of lies . But this is more proper to God then the Diuell according to this doctrine . 1. Because the Diuell did only in Adam , by tempting him to eat the forbidden fruit , remoue an impediment which did hinder ill , to wit originall iustice , by which the inferiour part was kept in order without rebellion to the superiour : but God did by his will , saith Caluin , ordaine and decree the fall of Adam , the ruine of all his posterity , & the miserable condition into which we are all fallen . Therfore God was more properly the authour of Adams fal then the Diuel . 2. Because the Diuell doth only tempt to sinne indirectly & medially , that is , either obiectiuè proposing sinfull obiects to the phantasy , that the will may consent , and delight in them , or dispositiuè by altering & tempering the organs of the senses that the appetites may with more facility incline vnto them , leauing alwayes a freedome of the will to dissent , or assent : but God , according to Caluin , doth not only by his ineuitable , & immutable decree , and ordinance , will and commād the same , but also by his immediate , effectual , & irresistable concourse & operation to euery actiō of sin , so works the act of sinne in man , that he leaues in man neither any operation at all , God working all ; nor any liberty or freedome , God necessitating all , who is thereby not only the permitter , but the authour of all sinnes ; the authour as well of the adultery of Dauid , the treachery of Iudas , the hardnesse of Pharao , the cruelty of Achab , the incest of Absalom , the reproach of Semei , the idolatry of the ten Tribes , of the Chaldean destruction of Iudea , of the Iewes and Pilates condemning of Christ , as he is , of the conuersion of S. Paul. Therefore God is more and truely the immediate worker of sinnes and lyes , then the Diuell . O diabolicall doctrine ! SVBDIV. 8. Obseruations vpon the former doctrine . VPON good ground therefore did Castalio ( who as Caluins scholler best vnderstood his maisters mind , not only by his writinges , but from his owne mouth ) affirme , that this doctrine of Caluin did transfer God into the Diuell , and for the same forsooke both him and Geneua , and writ against him , and this his doctrine . Truely did Peter Vermilius a Professour of Tigure affirme , that this doctrine of Caluins is a libertine , execrable , sacrilegious , abominable , and altogeather diabolicall doctrine . Iustly did the Tigurin Sacramentaries anno 1554 accuse Caluin for this doctrine of great impiety , cause his bookes writ of this subiect to be rent in peeces by the Hangman , and to be burnt publickly in the Market place , & by special Edict , commanded that none should diuulge in their territories any so horrible and detestable opinions . Vpon good reason do as yet the Lutherans in Germany so detest this doctrine , that to cleare Luther of it , they did expunge out of his works these words , God doth worke euill in vs. And most worthily doe the same Lutherans generally disclaime both this doctrine , and Caluin for it , in so much as one of them , Heshusius a great Superintendent , affirmes , that Caluin writ wickedly of the cause of sinne , made God the authour of sinne , and in his doctrine is horribly contumelious against God , pernicious to man , and makes not the Diuell , but God to be the authoisr of lyes . Another of them , a Professour , auouches , that not God , but the Diuell is authour of this predestination , and the God of the Caluinists . Out of which doctrine , and sequels vpon it , may be obserued . 1. That neuer any doctrine of Atheist , Pagan , Iew , or Heretike was so wickedly pernicious , and abominable as this of Caluin , and his followers is ; for though some made God idle , as Epicurus , others impotent , as Lucianus , others the authour of euill , as the Cerdonists , Marcionists , and Manichees ; others miserable , afflicting himselfe , as the Thalmudists , others no God at all , as the Atheists : Yet all these are more tollerable thē these Caluinists ; for it is not so ill to be idle , as to be doing ill ; better to make God do nothing then to make him the worker of all wickednesse . It is more tollerable to make God vnable to do good , then to make him the authour and actour of doing ill ; to make him vnable to requit good , then vniust to punish where is no desert of ill . It is lesse blasphemy to make two Gods , the one authour of good , and the other the authour of euill , then to make one God , and yet to make him the authour and worker of euill , and of all euill ; to call him iust , and yet to make him the punisher of that in others , which he wills , commandes , and workes by himselfe ; to account him mercifull , and yet vpon his meere will , and pleasure without any cause or desert , to ordaine , & create millions of men to eternall torments , and damnation . It was not so great impiety in the Iewes to make God mourn & sorrowfull for the punishment he wrought on Hierusalem , as it is in the Caluinists to make him well pleased with the vnreasonable tormenting of soules in hell , & to make it one of the chiefest attributes of Gods iustice , to appoint men to sinne , and then for that sinne to punish and damne them . It is not so foolish to say with the foole , there is no God at all , as it is to say , God is the Authour and worker of all wickednesse , and yet the punisher , and reuenger of the same ; for they by the light of reason will condemne and auoid thefts , murders , periuries , iniustice as lying in their power to auoid ; but these will , & may by their owne principles practise , and exercise them al , as being by God forced , and necessitated to them , as wanting freedome to auoid them , and as fearing no punishment for them . Though therefore most wicked , yet lesse wicked were the former opinions of Iewes , Heretikes , and Atheists , then these of the Caluinists . Secondly , it may be obserued , that no Caluinist can be certaine , and assured either of any verity of Scripture , or of any article of his Faith , or of any assurance of his saluation by his priuate spirit ; for though he may imagine himselfe to be certaine of the sense of Scripture , of the articles of his fayth , and of the infallibility of his saluation , that they are reuealed from God , yet he may with all according to his principles of fayth , imagine that God who reueales these , may reueale & tell him , which is false ; for as God , according to them , is he who effectually procures the sinner to sin , who as the principall cause vses the sinner as an instrument to commit sinne , who incites , compels , and necessitates the sinner to sinne , & who phisically , and effectually workes , and causes the act of sinne ; so the same God , according to them may procure , and incite the Apostles , and Prophets as his instruments , compel , and necessitate them as the chiefe authour , and worker , and produce in them as the principall agent , lyes and vntruthes , and so may by them in Scripture reueale an vntruth , either of the beliefe of the mysteries of their fayth , or of the certainty of their saluation . What certainty therefore can they haue from God of reuelations they receaue from him , or of any thing suggested by their supposed spirit , as from him ? Againe , God , according to Caluin , hath one will exteriour , another interiour ; doth call exteriourly whome he withouldes interiourly , speakes to them , but to make them more deafe , giues them light but the more to blind them , doth teach them but to make them more dull , doth apply to them a remedy , but not to cure them ; for so are Caluins wordes . If so , then how can any be sure that the calling , the speaking , the light , the doctrine , and the motion of their spirit ( as they suppose of God ) is not rather to detaine then draw them , rather to darken then lighten them , rather to dull them then teach them , rather to increase then cure their diseases ? Surely , if the spirit of God may worke , and doth more ordinarily worke the bad then the good , doth more vsually make shew to call when he intends they shall not come , doth more generally make blind then enlighten , make obdurate , then mollify , make dull , then teach , and wound then cure : And if God do more often intend bad thē good , obduration then illumination , damnation then saluation , of most whome he cals , inuites , and makes shew of intending their good : And if the greatest part of the world be thus by God deluded and deceaued ; then why may not , or rather should not euery Protestant iustly suspect the same of himselfe ? Why may he not rightly feare that God intends one thing by his inward will , and pretends another by his outward will ? that God doth worke errour , and deceit in him , rather then truth , and verity ? That he is a lying spirit , rather then a true in him ? Surely if God hath deceaued more then he hath taught truth , darkened more thē he hath lightned , obdurated more then he hath mollifyed , woūded more then he hath cured , and damned more then he hath saued ; iustly may euery one both suspect and feare , that God may do the like to him , sith no ground , reason , or motiue he hath of the one rather then of the other , and no more assurance of his saluation among the lesser number , then of his damnation with the greate● . Thirdly , it may be obserued , that the God of these Caluinists , and precise Protestants is not the same with the ancient Christians and present Catholikes , but the one doth so farre differ from the other ; that the one of the Caluinists doth , will , decree , and predestinate all sinnes which are committed by men , and so makes man sinne by the will , decree , and predestination of God ; the other of the Catholickes doth will , decree , and predestinate only good works , and all good workes , and so doth make man to doe good workes according to the will of God , and doth suffer him to do euill according to the man his owne will. The one doth command , vrge , and compell Sathan to deuise sinnes , and to sollicite men vnto it : The other doth bind , hould and hinder Sathan that he do not tempt man , and doth ayde , help , and assist man , that he be not by Sathan tempted aboue his power . The one doth himselfe secretly incite , moue , & necessitate man to sinne : the other doth disswade , deterre , and enable man against sinne . The one is the principall authour , worker , and effectour of all sinnes as sinnes , and men only his instruments to do that sinne which he workes by them : The other is no authour , nor instrument , nor worker at all of sinne as sinne , but only the efficient cause of that which is good , leauing man to be the deficient cause of that which is malice and sinne . The one vpon his meere will , because it is his pleasure , without any demerit , or sinne in man , did ordaine , predestinate and create most men to damnation , and ordained and predestinated only some few to saluation : The other created all men to saluation , and had a will and desire that all should attaine to it and be saued , and ordained none to damnation , but vpon his foresight of their sinne by which they would deserue damnation . The one did will , appoint , and decree the sinne of Adam , and of all mankind , for that end only , that in punishing the most for it he might shew his iustice , & in freeing other some few from it , he might shew his mercy : The other did only forsee , permit & suffer the fal of Adam , & the sin of all his posterity , & that for the more illustration . 1. Of his own goodnes , by cōmunicating himself to man. 2. Of his power , by exalting man to be God. 3. Of his mercy , by making himselfe a Redeemer of his enemies . 4. Of his clemency , in suffering all contumelies and iniuries at the hands of his seruants , besides the benefit which redoūds to man by the liberty of his will , and the benefit of Martyrdome , and other sufferings for the honour of God. The one doth doth excecate , obdurate and harden in sinne those whō he hath thus ordained to sinne and damnation , and for that end doth deny to them all freedome of will , all benefit of Christs merits , all help of grace , all meanes of pardon of their sinne , of doing good , and of attaining to saluation : The other doth call , inuite , and draw men out of sinne , doth stretch out his hands , knocke at the dore of their harts , offer the benefit of Christs merits , the light of his fayth , the vertue of his grace sufficient , and the reward of his glory aboundāt to all , that they may be conuerted , come to him , & saue their soules . The one , not only creates man to sinne and workes in sinne , but also leaues him in sinne both original and actuall , of which he neuer washes and cures the soules of any , euen the iust , by infusion of any grace , but only couers their sinne with the iustice of Christ , and so leauing him sinnefull and corrupted , only imputes him for iust and accounts him as cleane : The other is so farre from causing him to sinne , that he washes , cures , and sanctifyes him from sinne infuses into him grace & sanctity , by which he is really cleane from sinne , may actually obserue Gods commaūdments , & fruitfully do good workes meritorious of life euerlasting . Lastly , the one is the authour and worker of all sinnes , is the only sinner , is a most cruell sinner , and a deluding sinner , yea is one who hath all the bad properties and qualities of the Diuell , and so is the Diuell himselfe : The other is good , all good , only good , and goodnesse it selfe , pittifull , mercifull , gracious and bountifull to all , calling all , seeking all , and drawing al from vice to vertue , from sinne to grace , from the by-path of hell and damnation , to the hye-way of heauen and saluation , as much as in him lyes . As great therefore as is the difference betweene these two Gods , so much different is the God of the Caluinists from the God of the Catholikes , and the religion of the Protestants short of the Religion of the Catholikes . Of which who will see more , may read a Protestāt booke lately set out by a Lutheran , the subiect of which is to proue , that the caluinists God is not the same with the God of the Lutherans , and other Christians . Of absurdities which follow against Fayth , and the Creed . SECT . VI. I Haue at large shewed ( and that more largely then I intended , the fecundity of matter still drawing me on ) that as Idolatry , of God made many Gods , and that these Gods still begat new Gods till the number of Gods was infinit , incredible , and absurd ; so Heresy by one priuate spirit got many priuate spirits , & still euery priuate spirit begat a new opinion , and doctrine , till both the spirits and the doctrine or opinions grew so many and so absurd , that so many horrible and foule absurdities haue issued from them , as neither piety , reason , nor common sense can endure to heare them . One only obseruation ( of which I would desire the readers patience ) and that , to my iudgment , not vnworthy the consideration , occurs ; that is , to compile and bundell vp , as into one view , certaine maine and principal opinions of these Protestants generally receaued ( which indeed are the chief points controuerted betweene vs and them ) and to propose to the eye of euery indifferent Reader how smoothly they plaine the way to the downefall of saluation , by taking away Fayth , Hope , and Charity . For whereas God created man for himselfe , as his end to honour him ; and all thinges for man , as meanes to help him to this end : so he gaue him three helpes or meanes ; one , to know him ; another to desire him ; and a third to attaine him . Man hath the meanes to know God by Fayth , to desire him by Hope , and to attaine him by Charity : those are three Theologicall vertues which haue God their immediate obiect , and are as three meanes to prepare man for his iourney to heauen . Fayth , as the beginning , Hope , as the progresse , Charity , as the end and consummation of iustification : and as three partes of our spirituall building ; Fayth as the foundation ; Hope as the walls ; and Charity as the roofe of our saluation . The Protestant Doctours by their positions , and doctrine do oppugne , and ouerthrow all these three , as in a briefe sūme they are compiled , and proposed to vs ; Fayth , as it is deliuered in the Creed which in twelue articles shewes vs what we are to belieue . Hope , as it is contained in the Pater noster , which in seauen petitiōs directs what we are to hope , and pray for . Charity , as it is comprehended in the Decalogue , which by ten Commandements instructs vs what to do , & what to auoid . In this , and after ensuing Sections therefore we will shew how this doctrine doth oppugne , and ouerthrow all fayth in the articles of the Creed ; al hope in the petitions of the Pater noster ; and all charity in the ten Commandements , and thereby doth prepare the way , and loose the reines to all errour in beliefe , to all despaire or presumption against Hope , and to all liberty of sinnes , and loosenes of life and manners against Charity . And first we will lay downe briefly the chiefe points and positions of the Protestant doctrine , and next , out of them inferre the rest . First , the opinions , and doctrine of the Protestants are these . 1. That (a) only Fayth doth iustify . 2. That (b) this only Fayth makes vs certaine and secure of predestination past , iustification present , and glorification to come . 3. That (c) this Fayth is proper to all the iust , and only to them , and the elect . 4. That (d) this Fayth once had can neuer at any tyme be lost , nor by any sinne be expelled . 5. That (e) no sinnes , how many or great soeuer , be imputed to the elect , but all couered with the iustice of Christ by apprehension of fayth . 6. That (f) this Fayth is obtayned by the priuate spirit in euery man , which assures him of his fayth and saluation . 7. That (g) all workes of all men ▪ euen the iust and best , are sinnes , and that mortall , as infected with originall sinne , and as defectiue from perfect obedience , and fullfilling the precept . 8. That (h) there is no interiour , and inherent grace or iustice , but all exteriour and imputatiue . 9. That (i) the fullfilling of all the Commandements , or any of them is impossible . 10. That (k) no humane lawes do oblige in conscience to their performance . 11. That (l) the Sacraments , chiefly Baptisme are seales and signes of predestination to glory , of remission of sinnes , and perseuerance in Gods fauour ; and that in Baptisme are forgiuen sinnes past , and to come . 12. That (m) man by reason of Gods decree and originall sinne , hath no liberty , or freedome of will to do , or auoid bad workes . 13. That (n) God hath ordained and predestinated vpon his meere will and pleasure , without any cause giuen , or so much as forseene , all who are damned , both to damnation and to sinne . All which positions as they are auerred by the learned Protestants , and preached to the people , so they do ouerthrow all the articles of the Creed , all the petitions of the Pater noster , and all the precepts of the Ten Commandments , and leade to all loosenesse , and dissolution of life , as shal be shewed . SVBDIV. 1. In generall , dectroying all fayth . AND first , that these Positions do quite ouerthrow , & take away all diuine and supernaturall fayth , which is the first foundation and corner-stone of our spirituall building , the first preparation to life and iustification , the first root of all true vertue , and good workes , the first gate by which God enters into our soule , the first light which shines in our vnderstanding , the first true seruice which we offer to God , and the first step by which we beginne to walke our iourney to heauen : that this doctrine doth quite ouerthrow this fayth , and all the articles of the Creed proposed in it , is proued . 1. Because they distinguish three sortes of fayth . 1. Historicall , of thinges reuealed , and related in scripture , and proposed by the Apostles in the Creed , such as are the Trinity , Incarnation , Passion , Resurrection , and Ascension of Christ , with all other articles which all Christians vsually belieue . 2. Generall , of promises in generall , and all graces promised by Christ to all , as the sending of the Holy Ghost , the coming to iudgment , the raysing of the dead , and the like , which are generall for all . 3. Speciall , of the promise made to euery man in particuler of his predestination , iustification , and saluation , by which euery one is made infallibly certaine that his sinnes are forgiuen him , and that he shal be saued . Whereas , I say , they make these three sortes of Fayth , the first and second of these Faithes , to wit , Historicall and Generall ( by which they belieue the articles of the Creed & promises of God in general ) they (a) affirme to be faigned not true fayth , a shadow of Fayth , not a real iustifying faith , a Fayth which is common to the reprobate , and damned , & euen to the Diuels themselues ; and only the third , or Special fayth they assigne to be the true diuine , and supernaturall iustifying fayth , which hath for his obiect the speciall mercy of God , to them in particuler applyed , the certainty of remission of their sinnes assuredly past , and security of their saluation infallibly to come , by which they doe as much or more assuredly belieue their iustification and saluation , then they do the B. Trinity , Incarnation , or the rest of the articles of Fayth . Now , if this speciall fayth be the only true , diuine , supernaturall and sauing fayth , & by it is belieued only one article of the Creed ( & that not truly as shall appeare ) to wit , Remission of sinnes ; and the Historicall and Generall fayth , by which the rest of the articles are belieued , be only a shadow of Fayth , a fayth of the damned , and Diuells : then we haue no diuine , and supernaturall fayth of the rest of the articles , but belieue them only by a Faith which is a fained faith , a shadow , and no more a guift of God , then the fayth of the damned , and the Diuells in hell . Therefore all true ●nd diuine beliefe of the articles of the Creed , is by this special doctrine of speciall Fayth , quite abolished and taken away from all Christians , and nothing but a shadow of Fayth , a fained and diabolicall faith left to them , and so by one position of theirs is cut off all diuine fayth or beliefe of all the articles of the Creed . Secondly , whiles they deny all authority of Tradition , Church , Councels , and Fathers , and will belieue nothing but what they themselues find in Scripture , and that as their priuate spirit interprets it : While they make their spirit , the iudge of all fayth , & all controuersies of fayth , what is to be receaued or reiected , belieued or condemned : While , I say , they doe thus , they may by the vertue of this spirit call in question the authority , and credit of the Creed it selfe , with the authours of it , as not to be found in Scripture , and the particuler articles they may either reiect as counterfeit & intruded , or els expound and interpret them as their spirit shal lead them . Thus Luther and Caluin following Erasmus ( for Erasmus is sayd to haue layd the egge which Luther hatched ; to haue insinuated that which Luther assured ; to haue doubted of that which Luther downe right denyed ) made doubt of the authority of the Creed , whether it was made by the Apostles or not . And the Seruetians in Transiluania ( witnesse Canisius ) admit it but so farre , as it agrees with the word of God , interpreted ( no doubt ) by their spirit . Thus did Beza by his spirit affirme , that part of the sixt article , he descended into hell , to haue been thrust into the Creed . Thus Caluin and Zuinglius following likewise Erasmus , by their spirit affirmed , that part of the tenth article , the Communion of Saints , to haue beene intruded into this Creed out of some other Creed , and not to haue beene found in the ancient Creeds . Thus Luther by his spirit changed in his Germane Creed the word Catholike Church , into Christian Church . And Beza reiected the same word Catholike as most vaine and wicked . And thus by their Glosses , and expositions vpon many articles as not pleasing their tast , they wrest diuers , as shall appeare , from their natiue & proper sense ( for example , he descended into hell , that is , he descended into the graue ) & so make a new Creed in sense , and meaning agreable to their spirit , and the doctrine of it . Of which who will haue a full view , let him read Andr. Iur. his Nullus and Nemo , and Fitzsimons vpon the Masse where their many absurd glosses , and expositions are at large discouered , and confuted . SVBDIV. 2. In particuler , against all the twelue Articles of the Creed . THIRDL , Y because by this doctrine , and these Doctours are oppugned in particuler all the mysteries of fayth in euery article of the Creed , which by this briefe enumeration of euery one shal be made manifest . And first in the first article attributed to S. Peter ( I follow the diuision of S. S. Augustine , and Doctour Kellison , ) is oppugned , 1. The faith and beliefe of all the articles in generall in the word Credo , by all who hould that it is only a shadow , a faigned , & diabolicall Fayth , not a true , diuine , and supernaturall Fayth , tending to iustification by which euery Christian belieues these articles . 2. Is oppugned the vnity of God ( Deum ) by Caluin , who houldes that the Sonne hath an essence distinct from the Father ; By Beza , and Stegius , who hould that the essence is diuided into three persons . 3. By Luther , who houldes that the Diuinity is threefold . 4. By Melancthon , who houldes that there are three Diuinities or essences in God : By Sanctius , who entitles his booke , De tribus Eloim , of three Gods. 5. By the Tritheits in Polonia , who expresly hould there are three Gods , and three Eternalls . 6. Is oppugned the God-head it selfe , and his mercy and goodnesse , 1. By all those who make God the authour , willer , commander and worker of sinne , and damnation , because so is his will and pleasure : Who , make him a sinner , a great sinner , the only sinner : Who make him a lier , a dissembler , a tyrant , and transforme him into a very deuill himselfe ; as is before proued and deduced . 2. By those who make the diuinity of God passible , as with Eutiches the auncient condemned hereticke , Luther , and Iacobus Andreas do . 3. By those who affirme the diuinity to haue beene not only a mediatour betweene God and man , as Caluin and Beza did ; but also to haue beene obediēt to God , as Melancton , and after him many Lutherans , & Tigurins also did . And further to haue exercised the office of a Priest offering sacrifice to God , as Iewell did affirme . All which opinions do make many Diuinities in God , one inferiour to another ; because where one is a mediatour , is obedient , & doth offer sacrifice to another , there must be a subordination , subiection and distinction , there one must be inferiour and distinct from the other , and so there must be many distinct Diuinities , and these inferiour one to another , which is contrary to the nature of diuinity , & God-head . 4. Is oppugned the person of the Father , and with him the whole B. Trinity by Luther , who affirmes that the diuinity is as well three , and of three sorts , as are the three persons ; that the word Trinity is an humane inuention , a word which sounds coldly , and is not to be vsed , but insteed of it the word , God ; and did therupon thrust out of his Letanies that prayer , Holy Trinity one God haue mercy on vs. And did leaue out of his Germane bible those words of S. Iohn ( alleadged by Athanasius , Cyprian , & Fulgentius to proue he blessed Trinity against the Arrians ) There are three which giue testimony in heauen , the father , the word , and the holy ghost , and these three are one . To all which also Caluin subscribes , who not only affirmes , that the prayer , Holy Trinity , one God , haue mercy on vs , doth displease him , as sauouring of barbarisme , but also wrests all those places ( by which the Fathers out of the old and new Testament did proue against Iews , and Arrians , the diuinity of Christ ) to a contrary sense and meaning , as the Lutherās (a) in diuers bookes on set purpose against him haue conuinced . And Danaeus (b) his successor after Beza , followes him , who affirmes that the same word Trinity , and the same prayer , Holy Trinity haue mercy on vs , is a foolish and dangerous prayer . All which are directly contrary to the auncient orthodox , and Catholicke doctrine of the B. Trinity , three persons , and one God. 5. In the same first article is oppugned the omnipotency of God almighty by Beza (a) VVhitaker , & others who affirme , 1. That God cannot place one body in two places by replication or other wayes , that is , Christs body in heauen , and on the altar at the same time . 2. That God cannot place two bodies in one place by penetration one of another , that is , that Christs body , with the stone of the sepulcher at his resurrection , with the dores of the house at the entring to his disciples , and with the solidity of the heauens at his ascensiō , could not be togeather in one place , but the stone , dores , or heauen were diuided , opened , or resolued into some liquid matter . 3. That God cannot draw a camell or a cable-rope , as it is said in the Ghospell , though a needles eye . 4. That God hath no absolute power to do any more then he hath already done . 5. That the position of the archangell Gabriel , Any word is not impossible with God , is not generally to be belieued , nor vniuersally to be admitted . Al which if they be true , that is , if the diuinity be passible , be a mediatour , be a priest , and be three , and distinct as the person are ; if God be the authour and worker of all sinne and euill , if the word Trinity , and the prayer , Holy Trinity haue mercy on vs , be to be left out as barbarous , foolish , and dangerous ; if God cannot place one body in two places , or two bodies in one place , cannot draw a cable-rope through a needles eyes , can do no more then he hath done ; then is the Deity , the vnity , the Trinity , the goodnes and the omnipotēcy of God ( all which are by this first article belieued ) by this doctrine and these Doctours oppugned , and so the Fayth of the first article reiected . Secondly , in the second article attributed to S. Iohn , is oppugned the worke of the whole Trinity , (b) the Creation of heauen and earth , 1. By Caluin , who will haue only the Father properly to be creatour of heauen and earth , as to whome alone the name of God by excellency is due , and the Sonne to be the Vicar of the Father , and to haue the second degree of honour after him . 2. By Stenberge , Seruetus , Blandrata , Somarus , Francus , & others cyted by Kellison , who deny the Diuinity of the holy Ghost , as the third person in the Trinity , and admit only a vertue from the father , which they call the holy Ghost . But if the father be only God , if the sonne be inferiour as his vicar and second to him , if the holy Ghost be only the vertue of the father , not a person distinct from him ; then is only the father , and not the sonne and the holy Ghost with the whole Trinity , the creatour of heauen and earth . Wherby the second article is oppugned . Thirdly , In the third article , attributed to S. Iames the greater is oppugned the diuinity of the sonne & second person , Iesus Christ his only sonne our Lord. 1. By Luther who detested the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or consubstātiall ( signifying the sonne to be of the same substance with the father ) and made the diuinity of the sonne passible with Eutiches , as I haue shewed before . 2. By Caluin , Beza , and Whitaker , who admit Christ to be sonne of the father , but not to be God of the father , or of the essence of the father , or God of God , as the Nicene Creed expresseth , but God of himselfe , and withall affirmes that the father doth not continually & eternally beget the sonne . 3. By Caluin , Beza , & others before cited who make Christ as God , a mediatour and priest , and both to pray , and to be obedient to the father ; and distinguish in him a person of God distinct from the person of a mediatour , and therby with Nestorius make him to haue two persons . All which if it be true , that is , if the sonne , or second person as God , be not cōsubstantiall with the father ; if he be not God of God ; if he be passible , the vicar and second after the father ; if he be a mediatour and priest obedient to the father ; if he haue two persons : then is he not God coequall and coeternall , and the same in substance with the father , nor one only sonne of God , but two persons . And so this third article , Iesus Christ his only sonne our Lord , is oppugned . Fourthly , In the fourth article , attributed to S. Andrew , is oppugned the humanity of Christ , and virginity of his mother , VVho was conceiued by the holy Ghost , borne of the Virgin Mary . 1. By the Vbiquitarians who make the humanity to haue omnipotency , immensity & all the properties of the deity , & so to do all , to be all where , and in all places , which is proper to a diuine , not humane nature . 2. By the Anabaptists , and others who make Christ to haue passed through the body of his mother , as water doth through a conduct , and not to haue taken flesh of her womb . 3. By Molineus , Bucer , Beza Willet , and others who affirme our B. Lady to haue suffered detriment of her virginity in the birth of our B. Sauiour , and so make Christ not to be borne of a virgin , which this article affirmes . Fiftly , In the fifth article , attributed to S. Philip , is oppugned the vertue of the death and passion of Christ , Who suffered vnder Pontius Pilate , was crucified , dead , and buried . And that many wayes . 1. In that the vertue of his passiō is not ( according to them ) generall for al sinners and wicked persons , but particuler only for a few elect , that is , for some certaine Protestāts , of some one sect who only are the faithful among them , leauing all the rest destitut of any vertue from it , or of any vocation or iustification by meanes of it . 2. In that those elect it cures not from sinne , but only couers their sinne ; remits not sinne , but only imputes it not ; washes not away the guilt or offence of sin , but only frees them from the punishment due to it ; and enables not a man to resist sinne , but permits him in euery action to sinne ; strengthens him not to keep any one commandement , but leaues him so that he must needes breake all . 3. In that it giues to the soule of mā neither any life of grace , by which it raises him from spirituall death to life , nor any inherent iustice , by which it makes him iust before God , cleane from any sinne , or solid in any perfection of vertue , piety , and good life , nor any vertue by which it enables him to do any good worke , to satisfy for any offence , or to merit any reward of glory , or increase of grace ; nor any inward vnction , by which it adopts him to be , and to be called the sonne of God , or to be inheritour of the kingdome of heauen . 4. It had in Christ , as it was endured and offered by him , no dignity from his diuine person , which did giue an infinit valew and worth to euery action ; it had no vertue or validity to satisfy Gods iustice for any sin , to pay a price sufficient & equiualent for any sinne ; it could not by all the paines and torments which Christ suffered in body , euen to the sheding of the last droppe of his bloud , auaile any thing for mans redemption , except he had suffered in soule also . It could not redeeme man from any sinne , except Christ besides had suffered all the paines due to sinne , euen the same torments of Hell , which any damned doth suffer for sin . It so far ouercame Christ , that it made him troubled , inconsiderate , abrupt , effeminate , doubtfull of Gods fauour , and forgetfull of his office of a Redeemer . It made him wauering , staggering , desperate , & renouncing his saluation . It tormented him with horrour of conscience , with anxiety of mind , with sense of Gods wrath , and with feeling of the sorrowes , paines , and torments of eternall death and hell . All which as it is their doctrine of the death and passion of Christ in their owne particuler wordes before cyted ; so it derogates from the vertue of Christs bloud , & diminish● the dignity of his passion , and is dishonourable , sacrilegious , and blasphemous to his person , and in all oppugnes this article of Christs suffering vnder Pontius Pilate . All which is contrary in our Catholike doctrine , as shal afterward be shewed , which attributes to the vertue and passion of Christ that dignity , validity , and vertue , that euery action , any passion , the least drop of his bloud was sufficient & superaboundant to haue pacified Gods wrath , satisfyed his iustice , paid the price of sinne , & redeemed from sinne & hell , all the world and infinit worlds more ; and that it did de facto merit for all men inward grace to wash away & remit the guilt of sinne , to giue life and beauty to the soule , to adopt it to the title of the sonne of God ; that it did giue strength to man to resist sinne before it be committed , and satisfy for it in some sort after it be committed , to keep Gods Commandmēts , & to merit a reward at Gods handes . Of which doctrine whether doth giue more honour & vertue to the death & passion of Christ , & his suffering vnder Pontius Pilate for vs , let the indifferent Reader be Iudge . Sixthly , in the sixth article , attributed to S. Thomas , is oppugned both the descension of Christ into hell , & his Resurrection from the dead : He descended into hell , and the third day rose againe from the dead . And first his reall descending in soule to Limbus Patrum to free the Fathers there , and make them blessed , or ( which is propable ) to the place of the damned also , not to suffer , but to confound the Diuell , & shew his Maiesty , is oppugned . 1. By those who deny that any Limbus Patrum was euer at all , and affirme that the soules of the dead Patriarches were locally in heauen , though not beatifically blessed by the sight of God before Christ , as (a) Caluin & (b) Beza . 2. By those who deny that as yet there is any locall place of hell at all , or any reall fire and torments of the damned there , as (c) Luther , (d) Bucer , (e) Brentius , (f) Lobecius , (g) Perkins , (h) VVillet , (i) Caluin , & the Deuines of ( k ) Heidelberge . 3. By those who deny his descension to haue been either in body or soule substantially , but only in vertue and effect meritoriously , in that he merited the freedome both of the Patriarches before him , and of vs after him , from the paines of hell , as Bullinger , Zuinglius , the Diuines of VVittemberge , and others . 4. By those who affirme his descension to Hell to haue beene only in body , not in soule , and that not to the lowest Hell , but only to the graue , or buriall ; and so Act. 2. Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell , they change soule into carkasse , and hell into graue , translating it , Thou shalt not leaue my carkasse in the graue , as Beza , and Bucer . 5. By those who admit his descension to haue beene in soule , but yet suffering the very paines of hell , and of the damned , either after his death in hell , as Luther , Gerlachius , and some other mentioned by Beza , or before his death in the garden , and vpon the Crosse , as Caluin , VVillet , and others before cited . 6. By those who question this article as suspected to haue beene intruded into the Creed , after it was made , as Caluin . All which opinions as they either deny any Limbus Patrum to haue euer beene , or any reall torments of hell as yet to be ; or , as they affirme , Christ to haue descended only in vertue and merit , not in body or soule , or only in body to the graue , or in soule to suffer the paines of hell , either after death in hel , or before death vpon the Crosse and in the garden , are all contrary to this part of this article , in which is affirmed Christs descending into hell , that is , in soule to Limbus to free the Fathers , and Patriarches there , and to carry them with him into heauen . Secondly , his Resurrection from the dead , in the same article , is oppugned . 1. By those who , according to Beza , deny all resurrection as yet of Christs body more then of other mens . 2. By the Vbiquitarians , who affirme his body to haue had immensity , and therby to haue beene euery where in all places euer after his Incarnation . 3. By Caluin , Beza , and other , who deny his Resurrection with the guift of subtility or penetration , and affirme that his body could not pierce through the stone of the sepulcher , or enter the doors to his Disciples without either the remouing , or altering of the nature of the dores , and stone , by resoluing them into some liquid matter . 4. By Caluin and others , who deny the rysing againe of his bloud , that was shed vpon the Crosse , & thereby the resurrection of his whole and entire body . All which , as they deny either any resurrection at all , or the complete Resurrection of Christs body , or the resurrection of the same with subtilty or penetration , do euery one oppugne this article of Christs resurrection from the dead in such due sense as it ought to be belieued . Seauenthly , in the seauenth article , attributed to S. Bartholomew , is oppugned both the ascending of Christ to heauen , and his sitting at the right hand of God the Father , by power and dignity equall to him in person and excelling all creatures in his humane nature . 1. By the Vbiquitarians , who by the all-presence of Christs body in euery place , take from it all possibility of ascending to a new place . 2. By Caluin , who by giuing to Christ a power not equall with God , but Vicary , or deputary to him , and an honour , not the same , but only second in degree to Christ after God the Father ; & by denying al situatiō either of sitting or standing of Christs body in heauen , doth oppose both his Ascension , and sitting at the right hand of God. 3. By the same Caluin , and others who deny all Ascension through the heauens by way of penetration , and admit it only by diuision , and by cutting off the heauens . 4. By those who yield the Patriarches a priority , and deny Christ the primacy of tyme in ascending to heauē . All which , as they either affirme an euery where presence of Christs body , or a difference of honour between● Christ as God , and God the Father , or as they deny either any penetration of Christs body through the heauens , or any priority of his ascending before other soules , are all opposite to the manner of Christs ascension , and sitting at the right hand of God in glory . Eightly , in the eight article attributed to S. Matthew , is oppugned the Cōming of Christ to iudge the quicke and the dead , by their generall doctrine , that God is authour and worker of all sinnes , that the Commandements of God are impossible , that man hath no freewill , that there is no reward for good deedes , that all sinnes be mortall and damnable . For these supposed , no way is left to discusse rightly the differēce of sinnes , to punish iustly mens sinnes , or to reward duly their good deeds . Ninthly , In the ninth article , attributed to S. Iames the lesser , is oppugned the beliefe of the holy Ghost , and of the Catholicke Church ( both which S. Augustine makes one article ) . Of the holy Ghost , in that some , as hath been shewed , make it only the vertue , not the substance of God ; others , expung it out of their Letanies . Others , as the Geneuians , deny the adoration of it . Others , as before do make it the authour & worker of all sinne , the sauiour of all sects , who by a perswasion they cōceiue of it , do euery one assure themselues of saluation ; which authority , reason , and experience conuince to be false . Of the holy Catholicke Church ; in that some reiect the name Catholicke as vaine , and change it into Christian , others leaue it wholy out of the Creed as superfluous , and all of them do generally affirme the Church for many ages to haue beene latent , inuisible , erroneous , adulterous , and antichristian , without either head to gouerne it , or authority to end any controuersies , and to conserue vnity , or to punish offenders in it , and without any sanctity in the professours of it , whom they make all to be sinners , and that in all sinnes generally , and in great sins mortally ; & then how can such a Church be truely holy , vniuersall , and infallible , in deciding the beliefe of articles & determination of controuersies ? Tenthly , In the tenth article , attributed to S. Simon , is oppugned the Communion of Saints , and forgiuenesse of sinnes . The communion of saints is oppugned . 1. The communion of saints in earth one with another , by denying all meanes of vnity in faith vnder one head and Iudge . 2. The communion of saints in earth with the soules in purgatory , by denying all prayer for the dead . 3. The communion of Saints in earth with the Saints in heauen , by denying all honour or praying by vs vnto them , and all knowledge , and praying by them either for vs in earth , or others in purgatory . The remission of sinnes is oppugned by denying al power of priesthood in Gods church to pronounce any sentence of absolution , all vertue in Sacraments to haue any operation as instruments in the remitting of sinne , all infusion of grace to blot out and wash away all vncleannesse and deformity of any sinne , either originall or actuall , which according to them , are neuer remitted or taken away , but only couered , and not imputed . Eleuenthly , In the eleauenth article , attributed to S. Iudas Thaddaeus , is oppugned the resurrection of the body , by all who before oppugned the resurrection of Christs body , and by many who now a dayes , euen in England , admit a resurrection in a like body , but not in the same body which was before . Twelthly , In the twelth article attributed S. Matthias , is oppugned the life euerlasting . 1. By Luther who one while affirmes that the soule is made by propagatiō ex traduce , not by creation , and that the immortality of it is a popish fiction out of the dunghill of the Popes decrees : anotherwhile , that the soules of the iust & of many damned do sleepe senselesse , vntill the day of iudgment , and that dogges , sheep , oxen , and fishes shal be in heauen for our recreation . 2. By Caluin who affirmes that the soules of the blessed remaine sleeping in the porch , & are not as yet entred into the kingdome of glory , that faith is remaining in heauen , that it is foolish & temerarious to enquire where the soules of the iust are , and whether as yet they be in glory , or not . All which & many such like opinions of theirs , as they are the inuention of this priuate spirit , and are both absurd wicked or blasphemous ; so are they all plaine contrary to the Apostles Creed , and do directly oppugne the articles of it . And thus much of this priuate spirits doctrine as it oppugneth the articles of the Creed , and in them all faith and beliefe . Of absurdities against Prayer , and the Pater noster . SECT . VII . SVBDIV. 1. In generall , making all Prayer needlesse , or hopelesse . SECONDLY , This doctrine oppugneth the petitions of the Pater noster , and all manner of prayer and deuotion to God ; for which we may note , that as by faith we come to know God , and his reuealed verities ; so by this hope we are animated to attaine to the fruition of God , & all that is good for vs. An effect of this hope is prayer , by which we are emboldened ( in hope to obteine ) to speake to God , and aske of him what we stand in need of . Prayer therfore as it is , according to S. Augustine , an eleuating of the mind , and a sacrifice to God , a reliefe to man , a terrour to Sathan , a safegard to the soule , a comfort to the Angells , the perfect glory , the certaine hope , and incorrupted preseruer of all religion ; As it is an incense moūting vp to heauen ; a messenger we sēd to God , where our selues cannot yet come ; a ladder by which we climbe to the throne of God , and God descends to our vale of misery ; a hand which we reach to heauen & which God returnes filled with benedictiōs to vs againe : so it is not only a speciall vertue commended vnto vs by Christ who wils vs to pray , and to pray often , yea without intermission , but also a chiefe practise , the particulars wherof Christ himselfe did deliuer to vs both for the matter , what , and the māner , how , we should pray and make our petition . This he did in the Pater Noster , and the seauen petitions of it , which being a compendium of all we are to aske , as the Creed is of all we are to belieue , we make in it , besides the preparatory preface ( which teaches vs to haue confidence in God , in that he is to vs not only a maister but a Father , charity to our brethrē , in that he is our Father and we all brethren , his children by creation and adoption , and a Reuerence both to Gods Maiesty as residing in heauen , and also to his Saints and seruants in whom specially as in the heauens he dwels and reignes by grace , as S. Augustine expounds it ; ) besides , I say , this preface or preparation we make seauen petitions of seauen seuerall things vnto God , in which we desire blessings at Gods hands , either positiue of good things to be obtained ; or preseruatiue from euill things to be auoided . The positiue blessings we craue are either spirituall or corporall ; the spirituall are , 1. the sanctification of Gods name in the first petition , that is , either true knowledge of him , or right honour to him , or constant perseuerance in him . 2. The coming of his kingdome in the second , that is , the dilatation of his Church on earth , the increase of his grace in our harts , & the obteining of his glory in heauen . 3. The obedience to his will in earth , as it is in heauen in the third , that is , as Gods will is done by Angells , so it may be done by man , as it is done by the iust , so it may by sinners , as it is wrought in the spirit , so it may be in the flesh . The corporall blessings we craue , are our dayly bread in the fourth , that is , either temporall food for the body , or doctrinall for knowledge of the vnderstanding , or sacramentall of the Eucharist , and whatsoeuer is conuenient for both soule & body , & these are the four first petitions of positiue blessings . The preseruatiue blessings are from euils from which we desire to be freed , & those either euils past as sin , forgiue vs our trespasses , in the fifth against God , our neighbours , or ourselus , by commissiō or omission , by thought , word or deed ; or euils present lead vs not into tēptation in the sixt , that is , permit vs not to fall into any occasion or danger of sin by concupiscence of the flesh , vanity of the world , and malice of the Diuell ; Or euils to come , deliuer vs from euill in the seauenth , that is , from all paine due to sinne originall or actuall , by affliction in this life , or by torments in the next life either in Purgatory , or in hell , and from whatsoeuer may hinder vs from God , and all goodnes in this or the next life . In which are summarily contained all the thinges pertaining to the honour of God , or necessary for our body or soules , in this life , or the next . It remaines to shew , that the former positions of the Protestants do : make all these petitions needlesse , or fruitlesse ; needlesse , as of thinges certaine , which need to be asked ; fruitlesse , as of thinges impossible which cannot be obtained : which is shewed two wayes , first in generall of all prayer ; secondly in particuler , of these petitions . In generall thus , 1. That prayer is needlesse which prayes for that which is certaine & cannot faile vs , as either already past , or assuredly possest , or to come ; as for example , that Christ should be borne or crucifyed which is past , or that I should be a man , or an English man , which I am sure I am , or that to morrow the Sunne should ryse , or that men should rise at the day of iudgment , which they are sure to do . Againe , that prayer is fruitles which prayes for that which is impossible to be had , as for a mother to pray that she were a Maid , and Virgin againe , or for that an old man to pray that he were young againe , and might neuer dye , both which are impossible , though not both equally . But , according to the Protestant grounds , such are generally all their prayers , for if they pray for remission of sins , for the fauour of God , for perseuerance in Fayth , or for the glory of heauen , their prayer is as needlesse , as to pray for the birth of Christ past , or for the day of iudgment to come , because euery one by his speciall faith belieues as certainly that his sinnes are forgiuen him , as by his generall fayth , that Christ was crucified for him ; as assuredly that he shall perseuer in fayth and come to heauen , as that there shal be a day of iudgment and resurrection of his body ; therefore prayer for the one is as needlesse as for the other . Againe , if they pray for Gods grace to wash them from sin , to keep Gods commandements , to auoid concupiscence and lust , and to loue God aboue all , and not to offend him , their prayer is as fruitlesse , as to pray for Gods grace to keep them euer being sicke or euer dying , or to leape ouer the sea , or fly to the starres , because according to them , the one is as impossible as the other , therefore as hopelesse to be obtained by prayer as the other . 2. To pray for the preuenting of any euil , whether it be malum culpae , as sinne , or malum poenae , as punishment , and whether it be punishment temporall as losse of goods , affliction of body , or death of friends ; or spirituall as losse of fayth , of Gods fauour , and of the ioyes of heauen , or to pray for the obtayning of any good either temporal , as riches , health , or the life of friends ; or spirituall , as the good of Gods Church , the remission of our sinnes , and our perseuerance in state of grace , or obtaining the kingdome of heauen , is both needlesse and fruitlesse , because all as well euill as good shall infallibly fall out as God hath , according to his owne irrespectiue , immutable , & ineuitable will & pleasure , decreed and appointed it ; therefore needlesse it is to pray for the obtaining of good , and fruitlesse to pray for the preuenting of euill , because both must fall certainly as God hath ordained & decreed . What end or vse therfore is there of prayer , since the euent and the effect will be the same as well without prayer as with prayer , all as God , without any respect or foreseene consideration of vs , or our deserts , or prayers , or other works , hath according to his owne absolute will decreed and appointed to happen to vs. Thirdly , willingly to do any act which is belieued and supposed to be a sinne , and that mortall deseruing eternall damnation is vnlawfull , sinnefull , and damnable , and so not to be done with a good conscience : but such is all prayer , euen the best and deuoutest we can vse , according to their principles , because euery worke , euen the good workes of the best persons , according to Luther , Illyricus , Caluin , Beza , Paraeus , VVhitaker , Tindall , and others , are sinnes , mortall sinnnes , damnable sinnes , and nothing but sinne , euen in the iust and elect , though no more imputed to them , then their bad workes of adultery , murder &c. which they say are not at al imputed to them . Therefore all prayer , how good or deuout soeuer , is a sinne , and that mortall and damnable , & so is vnlawfull , sinnefull , and damnable , and not to be vsed more then swearing , lying , drinking , both being sinnes and neither imputed & punished as sinnes in the elect , in whome they are couered , and both imputed and punished as sinne in the reprobate in whome they are neuer forgiuen . All which is confirmed diuers wayes by the expresse wordes , first of Luther , who affirmes , 1. That no man obtaines any thing at Gods hand for any dignity , either in his prayer or in himselfe , but only by the bounty of God. Also , ( which he constantly auouches ) that the iust man doth sinne euen in praying , according to that of Dauid . Let his prayer be a sinne . 2. By the wordes of Illyricus , who affirmes , that prayer is no good worke but a begging of wages . And of Bucer , and Caluin his scholler who both affirme , that Christ did not prescribe vs to pray in these very wordes of the Pater noster , but shewed to what end , and with what affection we should pray . 3. By the practise of many Precisians , or Familists in England , witnesse D. Smyth , who vse to protest they will rather dye , then say the Lords prayer . 4. By the practise of the purer forte of Protestants , who haue left off , & condemne all saying of canonicall houres and deuotion in the Church , & haue not only turned all publicke praying into preaching , neuer vsing any at all in their meetings : but also did for example , in France pull downe & destroy ( witnesse Riche●me ) in one six monthes no fewer then ten thousand houses of prayer , or Churches in 400. Citties , which they by rebellion kept frō their soueraigne King and Prince . By all which is apparent not only how little they esteeme either Prayer , or houses of prayer , but also that , according to their grounds , all prayer in generall is needlesse and fruitlesse , yea sinnefull and damnable , and so not to be vsed and practised . SVBDIV. 2. In particuler , opposing all the seauen Petitions of the Pater Noster . IN particuler , that by this doctrine is oppugned all & euery part and petition of the Pater noster , shall likewise be proued . For first in the preparation Our Father which art in heauen , how can they call or esteeme him a louing Father , whome they belieue to be a cruell and vniust iudge , who decreed and created them to sinne , that , for that he might damne them ? Or what confidence can they haue in the mercy of this Father , who is thus rigorous to them in his iustice ▪ and more then iustice ? How can they call or esteeme themselues his children by adoption from whome they receaue no inward grace of iustification ? How can they call him our Father , or the Father of all , whome they belieue as a Father to haue predestinated , called , and giuen meanes only to a few , and as a cruell Iudge to haue excluded all the rest , and the greatest part ( of which euery one may iustly feare himselfe to be one ) from any possibility of vocation , grace , or saluation ? How can they expect from him a crowne of glory in heauen , of whome they belieue they cannot merit any reward in earth ? Why should they not feare a heauy hand of iustice , yea despaire of any kind of mercy from him , who beyond iustice , hath proceeded so terribly as to predestinate so many to so great paines as are the paines of hell , who had deserued or giuen no cause of any paines at all ? Who can imagine that God dwelleth in the iust and elect as in the heauens , who are so fowly stayned in euery part of their soule with the deformity of all sinne and iniquity , that no one part , or action of them is cleare and vnstained from sinne ? Surely they who belieue this of God , and his cruelty , and of man and his deformity cannot confidently say neither Our Father which imports Gods mercy to man , & mans confidence in God , or VVhich art in heauen ▪ which specifyes that as God dwels in the iust , so they as the temple of God , should be pure and cleane , and bright like to heauen . Secondly , how can they in the first petition say , Hallowed be thy name , and hope that they by true loue , honour , and obedience to God can sanctify , and make holy his name by their life and actions , who belieue that euery action they do , euen the best they can do is a sinne , and that mortall , & damnable ? Surely to pray that by actions which are prophane , we may sanctify Gods name ; that by workes which are offences to God , we may please God ; that by deedes which are damnable and deserue hell , we may prayse God , and deserue heauen ; is a prayer not only so hoplesse , as it is not possible , but also senslesse , that no reasonable man can be imagined to make it . Thirdly , how can they wih confidence say , Thy kingdome come , that is , that Christ may raigne as a King either in his Church by fayth , or in the faythfull by grace , or in heauē by glory , who belieue and professe that Christ was not able to preserue his Church for so many ages togeather , without errour of Antichristianity and Idolatry , no not so much as in extancy or visibility , nor yet hath power by grace so to raigne in any his seruants , as to maister any sin or temptation to sin , or to performe any one commandement , or to do any one action , which is iust and not sinnefull . Surely weake is that King , & poore is that Kingdome , where neither the King hath power to protect his subiects from the inuasion of the enemy , nor the subiect hath ability to performe any action which may tend to the honour and seruice of the King. Againe what needes any man to pray that either Christ may raigne in him by grace present , or that he may raigne with Christ in glory to come , who is certaine and sure by his speciall fayth ( as all Protestants say they are ) that both he is for the present in state of Gods fauour , and also shal be for the future in state of glory in heauen ? Surely , he that belieues this needs not to pray either for pardon of sinnes , which he is sure are pardoned , or for his obtaining heauen , which he is sure to obtaine . Fourthly , how can any one in the third Petition , say , Thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen ? Vnderstanding that Gods will should by vs be performed in doing good deedes , and auoiding bad , & that we should conforme our selues to the will of God both in the materiall obiect , by doing that which he will haue done , and in the formall by doing it both for the end and after the manner as he will haue it done ; who belieues , 1. That man hath no freedome or power to worke the will of God. 2. That Gods will is wrought in euery action as well bad as good . 3. That the will of God in performing his commandements is impossible . 4. That good workes in this life are neither meritorious , nor necessary , nor yet possible . 5. That in earth euery man , and euery action of his is sinnefull and vncleane , and in heauen euery Saint , & Angell , and euery action of theirs is good , pure , and perfect . For , as it is needlesse to pray , that Gods will be performed , which ineuitably shal be performed both in good and bad actions , in which man hath no liberty or power ; so it is bootlesse to pray that men may either be freed from sinne , or may do good workes , or may fullfill Gods commandements , or may do his will in earth , as Saints and Angels do it in heauē , because according to their beliefe all this in this life is impossible , and neither euer was , nor euer shal be by any , at any tyme performed . In vaine therefore is it for vs to pray , that we may conforme our selues to the will of God either in the affirmatiue precept , in doing that which he commaunds ; or in the negatiue precept , in omitting that which he forbids ; either in the materiall obiect , in doing what he commands , or in the formall , in doing how , and why he commands , sith both , and all are either necessary , and so must be done ; or impossible , and so cannot be done . Fifthly , how can any man say , Giue vs our dayly bread ? Vnderstanding either of temporall sustenance for the reliefe of the body , or of Sacramentall food , the body and bloud of Christ , who belieues either that the decree , will , and ordinance of God doth impose an infallible and an ineuitable necessity vpon all things , whereby all thinges necessary wil be prouided for vs as God hath ordayned without our prayer ; or that the Eucharist is not the true body and bloud of Christ but only a figure or signe of it , because the beliefe of the former takes away all necessity of praying for temporall sustenance , and the misbeliefe of the latter opposes all desire of the supersubstantiall bread of the body of Christ in the Eucharist . Sixthly , how can any man with confidence say , Forgiue vs our trespasses , as we forgiue them that trespasse against vs ? Vnderstanding by trespasses his debts or sinnes , by forgiue , remit or take away the same . For if Fayth be precedent and presupposed to prayer , as it is ( for els how can we as we ought with fayth and confidence aske and pray ) and the same faith ( as they say ) doth assure vs by a certaine and infallible perswasion that our sinnes are already forgiuen or not imputed ; then surely in vaine , needlesse , yea foolish is our petition to haue them remitted or not imputed . 2. If euery good worke be a sinne ( as they defend ) and that mortall , then by sinne and that mortall ( such as is the saying , though neuer so deuoutly , of this prayer and petition ) is sinne remitted , and so comitting of sinne should be a meanes to obtaine remissiō of sinne , which is most absurd , as though the committing of a new offence should be a motiue to pardon the old . 3. If no sinne be remitted in this life , but only couered and not imputed , then in vaine , and hoplesse is our prayer for remission and taking away our sinnes , as of a thing impossible , and needlesse ; and bootlesse is our prayer for the not imputation of the same , because ( as before ) in the elect , they are already not imputed , & in the reprobate they neuer shal be imputed ; either therefore fruitlesse and hopelesse , as a thing impossible , is the remitting and taking away of our sinnes ; or needlesse & fearelesse , as a thing certaine , is the not imputation of the same by this petition demanded , sith the one is impossible to be obtained , and the other is certainly already possessed and enioyed : needlesse therefore , or hopelesse is this petition of forgiuenes of our sinnes , by their principles . Seauenthly , how can any man with confidence , in the sixt petition say , Lead vs not into temptation ? that is , into no danger or occasion of sinne , into no consent or act of sinne to to come , who belieues , 1. That God wills and workes all sinnes and occasions of sinnes . 2. That as he hath already decreed , so euery action and occasion must be . 3. That by no sinne he can fall from Fayth or grace , or loose heauen ; for if all sinne be ineuitably determined , then it shall infallibly be wrought by God as he hath determined . And if euery actiō in man be a sinne , then impossible it is to be freed from it , & so hopelesse is the praying for that end . And if no sinne can hurt a faythfull Christian , nor hinder him of heauen , or depriue him of grace ; then in vaine & needlesse is all prayer to be freed from temptation to sinne , which can neither hurt , nor hinder any faythfull person from heauen . In vaine therfore , and to no end or benefit is the saying of this sixth petition , Lead vs not into temptation . Eightly , how can any man with confidence say the seauenth petition , Deliuer vs from euill ? Vnderstanding it of the paines and punishments of sinne , or impediments of good thinges , to be inflicted , either in this life , or in the next , who belieues that no temporall punishment , either in this or the next life , remaines to be endured after the guilt of sin be remitted , and that all paine or miserie inflicted by the Diuell or man is from God , the Diuell and man being only instruments , and that forced & necessitated to it . For where no punishment remaines as due either in Purgatory , which they belieue not , or in this life , in which only fayth satisfyes and remits ; Where also the ineuitable decree and hand of God doth will , and worke all punishment in body or goods , and where all things do fall out infallible as God hath disposed , there all prayer to preuent punishments for sinnes , or to remoue impediments of good thinges , is both needlesse , because , as well without as with prayer , the euent must fall as God hath disposed , and also fruitlesse , because by it no punishment of sinne , or impediment of good thinges ordained by God can be preuented . To what end , or with what confidence therfore can any , who belieues the former doctrine , say these petitions of the Pater noster , sith by vertue of it all prayer in generall , and this of the Pater noster in particuler , is made either needlesse as of things which are certaine to succeed without it , or hopelesse as of things which are impossible to haue any effect by it ? And thus is shewed how the Protestant doctrine is opposite to all Hope , and doth make frustrate all manner of prayer , by which we come with any confidence to obtaine at Gods handes any benefit for vs , or remoue any euill from vs. Of absurdities against the obseruation of all lawes , and chiefly of the ten Commandements . SECT . VIII . SVBDIV. 1. In generall , how all lawes are made impossible , and not obliging . WE haue shewed how the Protestant doctrine ouerthroweth the articles of the Creed , and the petitions of the Pater noster , and in them all certainty of fayth & all exercise of hope by making of prayer : it remaines that we shew how it likewise frustrates all precepts , & lawes which tend to good life by bidding good , and forbidding euill , and among them in particuler the Decalogue of the ten Commandements , and thereby openeth the gappe , and looseth the reines to all liberty of sinne , and loosenesse of life , to the ruine of Charity . For which we may note , 1. That lawes ( which euer haue beene , at all tymes among al nations , vsed as the chiefe meanes to withdraw men from euill , and to prepare them to good ( by punishing the one , and rewarding the other ) haue alwayes by wise men beene esteemed of that dignity and necessity , that according to Pindarus , they are the inuention and guift of God , according to Chrysippus , that they are very God himselfe , who giues them , & the Queene of all actions diuine and humane . According to Aristotle , they are the rule of iustice and iniustice , which we must apply to all actions , and by which all businesses and persons are ruled ; the measure by which we must square what we are to do , and what to omit ; the Prince whome we ought to obey , and the Captaine whome it is fit to follow . According to Tully , they are the establishing of right , & the suppression of wrong . According to Demosthenes , the sinewes of the Citty , and the strength of it against the wicked . Without which sayth Plato , a commō-wealth is not a cōmon-wealth . And according to which if men did not liue they would nothing differ from beasts . 2. These lawes , are some naturall of reason , and a mans conscience ; some positiue , diuine of God , which were established either by Moyses in the old law , and were either morall , ceremoniall , or iudiciall ; or by Christ , and his Apostles in the new law , and are yet of fayth and Sacraments , Charity or good life ; some humane , which are either Canonicall of the Church , or Ciuill for all nations , or particuler of seuerall countryes , all which being iust , promulgated , and knowne , do oblige , and that in conscience vnder sinne to the performance of them . 3. Among these lawes the chiefest and most in force are the Decalogue , or the ten Commandments , which being lawes morall of good manners , and agreable to naturall reasons , are not with the ceremoniall and iudiciall law ( which were giuen only for that tyme and estate of the law of Moyses ) abrogated , but stand still in force , and oblige all men and nations to the performance . 4. In these ten Commandements we are commanded to performe our duty to God in the first table , and to our Neighbour in the second table . To God , first , honour in our hart , by adoring one , not many Gods , in the first Commandement . 2. Reuerence in word , in not prophaning his name by vaine swearing , in the second . 3. Obedience in fact , by keeping his Sabboth and Festiuall day , in the third . 4. To our Neighbour , we are to giue , by affirmatiue precept , honour to our Parents and Superiours , in the fourth : and by negatiue precept to auoid al wrongs done to our Neighbour , 1. By exteriour fact , either to his own selfe by killing , in the fifth , or to his second selfe , his wife , by adultery , in the sixth : or to his goods , by stealing , in the seauenth . 2. In word by false witnesse , in the eight . 3. In hart by vnlawful desiring either his wife by concupiscence , in the ninth ; or his goodes by auarice , in the tenth Commandment . Which Decalogue of ten Commandments doth oblige to performance , not only Christians who professe the name & fayth of Christ ; but also all sortes of men or women endewed with reason , whether Iewes , Turkes , Pagans , or whomesoeuer . Now , that the Protestants by their doctrine do abrogate all these lawes , not only of Church or Common-wealth , but also of God , of Nature , of the ten Commandments , and whatsoeuer , & leaue man obliged to the performance of none , but by the liberty of their Ghospell freed from all , as hauing it in their free choice whether they wil keep or break any Commandement of God , Church , or King ; and that they do thereby draw backe from the practise of any vertue , & draw forward to the practise of vice , and so remoue al encouragement to vertue , and propose all enticements to vice , by which they do open a wide gap to all liberty and loosenesse of life , and giue a free passage to all concupiscence and sensuality of sinne , to what any mans imagination , or affection shall lead him : That this their doctrine ( I say ) doth this , shall by these , and the former positions , and illations vpon them , be conuinced . For first they take away from the Christian-common-wealth all superiority , by affirming that among Christians is no superiour , that a Christian is subiect to none , but only to Christ , who only is his immediate superiour , as (a) Luther . 2. They take away from Superiours all spirituall and temporall power to make any lawes , affirming , as (b) Luther , & (c) Caluin do , that to make lawes and to rule by lawes is proper only to God , & that no man can forbid that which is not forbid by Christ . 3. That they take from lawes all obligation to bind in conscience , affirming all , as (d) Luther , Caluin , Zuinglius , Beza , Martyr , Danaeus , VVhitaker , Perkins , & others do , that no Magistrate or Lawes are to be obeyed for conscience , that all lawes of men are to be abolished , that the laws of the Apostles oblige not but for scandall , that there is no sinne or obligation in conscience to any law , but of God. 4. They derogate from Gods lawes , holding that it is impossible for any man though iust to performe and satisfy the law , or to keep the Commandements , or any one of them , that therefore the law commands thinges impossible , which is a fundamentall point of Christian religion to be belieued , and that the contrary , which affirmes the keeping of the law to be possible , and the gayning of heauen to be proposed cōditionally if we keep the law , is a wicked perswasion . So the Confession (e) of Auspurge and England , so Luther , Melancthou , Caluin , Beza , Danaeus , VVhitaker , Perkins , Scharpius , Adaemus Francisci , and others . 5. They abolish the morall law of the Decalogue , or ten Commandements , affirming , that it is free and nothing belongs to any iust regenerate , and pious person , & that the breach of it to any faythfull shall not be imputed as a sinne , nor punished as a sinne ; thus (g) Luther , Melancthon , Zuinglius , Martyr , Caluin , Beza , VVhitak . Tindaell , Bucan . Bullinger and others , whereupon they inferre that the obseruation of the law is not necessary to saluation : thus (g) Luther , Caluin , Perkins , Piscator , Paraeus , and Martyr : That no Saint as yet euer did fullfill the law and obey it , nor loue God with his whole hart , as the law requires ; thus the (h) Confessions of Auspurge , Scotland , and Bohemia , Luther , Caluin , Brentius , Paraeus , Danaeus , & others . And that we should not vse any prayer for that end , that we may fulfill the law , but only that we may endeauour to fullfill it ; thus (i) Caluin , Perkins , and others doe affirme . To which assertions if we adde their other positions before mentioned . 1. About good works , that they are not pleasing to God as any worship to him , but are all sinnes & that mortall , and neither free , nor meritorious , nor necessary , nor profitable , nor possible , nor any cause of saluation , & therfore can haue no dignity , no merit , no reward , no crowne of iustice . 2. About sin , that God wils , works , and is pleased with sinne , doth predestinate , command , tempt , & necessitate to sinne , & that no sinne is imputed to the elect , that no sinne can be auoided , that no sinne is any cause of damnation . 3. About iustification , that only faith doth iustify , & that by assuring a man of his iustification , which once had can neuer be lost ; that no iustice is inherent but all imputed , that none doth take away any sinne but only couer it , that none doth make a man iust before God but only before man. If , I say , we adde these their positions and doctrine ( which are their common Tenents , and before proued ) to the former , it will euidently appeare that their doctrine of it selfe , without any wresting or forcing it , is a spurre to vice and a bridle to vertue , is a retractiue from good life , and an attractiue to bad , & doth stope the way to a mind enclined to morall honesty , & open the gat to one disposed to loosnesse and liberty . SVBDIV. 2. In particular , how many wayes the Protestant Doctrine incourageth to the breach of all lawes , and to all lewdnes of life . AND first , if a man should belieue not only the articles and points reuealed in Scripture , but also the consequences deduced from them ( as most Protestants hould ) thē may euery Protestant out of these their former principles , by euident consequence deduced , belieue and practise these , & such like positions and practises which draw from all piety to impurity , and which do euidently follow out of the former principles . First therfore , he may reason and accordingly practise thus : The obseruation of the ten commandments , yea of any one , is impossible , and by the liberty of the ghospell I am freed from all obligation to any , as well morall as ceremoniall precepts , Ergo in vaine do I labour to keepe them , in vaine do I ēdeauour to abstaine from idolatry , periury , prophaning the Sabboth , disobedience to Superiours , murder , adultery , theft , false witnesse , concupiscence , or the like , because it is as impossible for me to keepe thē as for me to leap ouer the sea : Because by the liberty of the Gospel I am freed from the obligation as well of them as of the ceremonial precepts , and therfore may as well breake the Sunday as the Saturday , as well commit fornication as eat porke or bacon , as well omit duty to parents or princes , as circumcision or the paschall lambe sith all are equally abrogated , and neither sinne nor punishment of either is imputed ; Ergo , Why shall not I as well commit , as auoid swearing , drinking , murder , adultery , or the rest ? Why not as well yield to , as resist concupiscence ? Why not as well consent , as dissent , as well follow , as forbeare my pleasures , as well feed , as bridle my appetites and passions ? because both are against the commāmandement which is impossible to be kept , and neither imputed to me for sinne , which by faith is fully remitted . Secondly , He may reason , and accordingly practise thus : No prince or Prelate hath any power to make lawes which shall oblige the subiect in conscience ; Ergo I am not bound in conscience and vnder any sinne to obey them , but may , ( so as publicke scandall or punishmēt can be auoided ) breake them at my pleasure , so it be priuate and vnknowne ; therfore may I vnderhand breake the Canons & iniunctions of the Church , and vse simony , bribery , and the rest : Therfore need I not obserue the lawes of the commō wealth , but may bring in or trasport forbidden goods , deny tolles , taxes or imposts , breake any statute , either as a magistrate , or as a subiect , so I can auoid scandall and punishment , because vnder sinne , and in conscience I am obliged to none of these lawes , and statutes . Thirdly , He may reason and practise thus : No good works are meritorious , none are necessary , none are possible , all , euen the best , being sins , and that mortall , as infected with originall sinne , and defectiue from the law ; Ergo , in vaine do I labour to do good works which are impossible , in vaine do I labour to serue and please God by them , sith al are sinnes , and that mortall ; Why therfore shall I do rather good workes , then bad ? Why liue I piously , rather then wickedly ? Why do I iustice , rather then iniustice , make restitution , rather then commit rapine ? Vse praying , rather then swearing ? frequent Sermons , rather then Tauerns ? because neither the one nor the other deserue reward , or are pleasing to God , and both the one and the other are damnable sinnes and deserue hell , but neither are imputed as sinnes ; but both couered by the Iustice of Christ , apprehended by my faith . Fourthly , He may reason and practise thus : Only faith doth iustify , & iustifying doth infallibly make me as certaine of remission of my sinnes as I am of Christs death , and therby certaine of my perdestination , and election , ( for none are truly faithfull and iustified but the elect ) and certaine also of my perseuerance and glorification ( for faith once had cannot be lost : ) What then need I to feare , either for seruil feare , any punishment of hell ? because I am sure of heauen : or , for filiall feare , any offence of God ? because I am sure that he imputes no sinne or offence to me , and that neither he will forsake me , nor I can fall from him : or , for reuerentiall feare , any Maiesty and goodnesse of God who wil not be offended for that which is wild & wrought by himselfe ? And because his lawes or precepts are aboue my power , and , as impossible , do not oblige in conscience , what need I to make any conscience of any sinne either past , or committed , or to come and in danger to be committed ? because I am sure that none shal be imputed , that none can take from me Gods grace and fauour , that all by faith are couered , and that my Baptisme was to me a signe and seale of remissiō of al sinnes past and to come ? What need I either contrition or sorrow , either pennance or satisfaction , either fasting or good workes , either prayer or preaching , because I am sure that all satisfaction is made for me by Christ , & that any sinne of myne is impossible , that also my prayer & penance are sinnes ; that my sinnes are already forgiuen , & that I am certainly the sonne of God ; and so certaine to continue , and to come to heauen . Fiftly , He may reason and practise thus : I haue no free-will or liberty either of contradiction , to do or not to do ; or of specification , to do good or bad , but am by the decree and will of God necessitated to do what I do , & what God hath ordeined me to do : Ergo , vnreasonable is God , who hath imposed vpon me precepts which I haue no power or freedome to performe ; vniust is God , who punishes me for doing that which he wils me to do , & in which I haue no freedome of wil to the contrary ; Impious are magistrats and iudges who punish me for that which God wils , cōmands , & compels me to do ; Impossible is all vertue and vice in me which can be no more vertue or vice in me then in a beast , if I want freedome of will ; foolish am I , who labour to do that which I haue no power , or liberty to do . In vaine do either lawes terrify me , or superiours admonish me , or preachers exho●r me to that which I haue no power , liberty , or freedome to omit or commit , to choose or refuse . All which followes vpon the want of my freewill , and ability to do good . Sixtly , He may reason , and practise thus : God hath decreed , appointed , and predestinated , of his owne meere wi , without any respect to me or my demerit , whether I shal be damned or saued , the one or other as he hath appointed ; In vaine therefore am I solicitous , or do I labour for either , sith , without my care or labour , that must be , which God hath appointed , and not my labour can alter , further , o● hinder either . Againe , God doth will , command , and worke , as the principall agent , all sinne which is wrought in me , why shal I therfore detest that which God wils , or auoid that which God commands , or not do that which God wils , commands and works in me ? Againe , if I be an elect , God giues all meanes so certaine of saluation that I cannot reiect them ; if I be reprobate he denies me all meanes necessary , either of the merits of Christ offered for me , or of grace and faith s●fficient for me : In vaine therefore is all my labour , because if God hath prepared for me meanes effectuall they wil be applied as they are decreed without me ; if not , they will not be obteined by me and my care : let therfore all care of heauen or hell be left to God and his ordination , and let vs liue merrily , fare daintily , spend freely , feed our sense and appetit fully , and leaue all care or cogitation of heauen or hell to Gods decree and ordinance , which according to his will , not our care , will haue the effect which he hath appointed . This follows in reason , and thus in reason may any one inferre and reason , supposing he belieue the aforesaid false principles . SVBDIV. 3. To what vices the Protestant doctrine leads . SEAVENTHLY , For vices in particular , how euery one doth receiue life , grouth , nourishment , and encouragement by this their doctrine , & how men may be whetted and animated to the free exercise of the same vices by vertue of it , may by these reasons appeare . 1. Slouth ( which , saith the wiseman teaches many euils (a) , and is the stepdame saith S. Bernard , of vertue , the mother of sinne ; and the root and nurse , saith S. Chrisostome , of desperation ) is by this doctrine nourished . For who will labour who assures himselfe that his labours , works , and sufferings haue neither any reward , nor make any satisfaction ; but that they deserue hell and eternall punishment , and that by them he can no more please God performe his will , or fulfill his commandements then he can reach the starres or leape ouer the seas , and that he hath no freedome or liberty of wil , but must do as by God he is appointed and compelled , and that only faith , and apprehension of the iustice of Christ will suffice to his iustification and saluation . Secondly , Chastity which is commended in scripture , as deseruing immortall praise by God & man (a) ; as of more worth then all weight (b) ; as the fruit of the spirit (c) ; and as that which maks pages , or followers of the lambe (d) Christ Iesus ; & is indeed according to S. Cyprian , the ornament of noblemen , the nobility of meane men , the beauty of the deformed , the comfort of the sorrowfull , the augmentour of beatitude , honour of religion , the diminisher of vices , the multiplier of vertue , and the spouse of the omnipotent , and which was so imbraced in the Primitiue Church , that in some places a thousand , in other two thousands , in others 3000. in others 5000. men , and in others as at Ancyra , 10000. women professed it in one place , and preferred it before the riches and pleasures of the world : This precious vertue and pearle is debauched , & Luxury ( which is , as one cals it , the gate to hell , the way to iniquity , the biting of a scorpion , the birdlime of wickednesse , and the fountaine of perdition ) is fomented and increased by this doctrine . For who will labour to liue chastly who belieues , as they teach ▪ that Chastity is impossible , and no more in mans power then it is not to be a man ; that a woman is as necessary as to eat , drinke , sleepe or sneese ; that marriage is as gold , virginity as dung ; that all are to be condemned as guilty of murther who do not giue themselues to beget children ? Who will abstaine from any sensuall lust , and brutish concupiscence , to which his affection leads him , who perswades himselfe that a man or womā sins as much in hauing a suggestion or motion of concupiscence , though resisted , as in consenting , delighting , or acting the sinne it selfe ; that it is no more sinne to yield , then to resist lust ; that the sinne is pardoned before hand by vertue of the seale of Baptisme , and no more imputed by the meanes of faith then though it had neuer beene committed . He surely that is taught this , and belieues this , and withall that neither this nor any sinne can expell , or take away his faith , or damne him ( Infidelity only excepted ) is foolish if he feare sinne , and is senselesse and labours in vaine , if he seeke and labour to bridle his concupiscence , to mortify his affections , to resist his temptations , or to restraine , or not giue himselfe to all sensuality his heart can desire ; which freely and fully he may do , as by this doctrine he is warranted and secured . Surely he that belieues thus , as thus he is taught , needs not feare any detriment to his soule or any punishment of his sinne , or any offence of God : what therefore can , or at least will restraine him from following his fleshly appetites , specially in secret ? Thirdly , Cruelty ( which how odious it is , is by diuers examples before declared ) with all rage , ire , and reuenge , and the practise of them is by vertue of this doctrine dangerously perswaded : for who will not be encouraged to inflict any seuere punishment and cruell tortures for any little offence committed against him , who belieues that God ordaines soules to such horrible punishments in hell for no offence committed , or forseene to be committed against his Maiesty ? Who desirous to imitate God , will not rather exercise , then detest actions of all cruelty and tyranny , when he belieues that God is a iudge so seuere , cruell , and tyrannous , that he ordaines and creates men to damnation and sinne , and for the same sinne which himselfe commands & works in them doth himselfe torment them with those horrible torments of eternall fire in hell ? Who may not be incited to lay vpon subiects and seruants any command though neuer so heauy and intollerable , when they read & belieue that God laies vpon al men precepts which are impossible to be performed ? Who will bridle his rage and fury of passion when he perswades himselfe that he offends Gods as much in resisting , as in yielding to it ; and that neither Gods particular fauour , nor his speciall faith and ●ustice is lost , nor any sinne shal be imputed , or punishment inflicted vpon him for the sinne , though in his rage he should kill , murder , and vse all reuenge vpon his enemies ? What needs therefore any man to feare , or care in conscience what secret murder or villany he contriues or works , so he can but auoid the shame or the world , or the punishment of the lawes ? Fourthly , Pride which is the sinne (a) which God hates , & is (b) abomination to God , and the begining of all sinne , & apostacy from God ; Which is , according to S. Gregory , the root of all euill , and the queene of all vices ; Yea according to S. Augustine , the begining , the end , and the cause of all sinnes , and which makes vs like to the diuels , as humility doth to the Angels : This pride is by this their doctrine kindled , and as by bellowes blowne and set on fire . For what a strong motiue to pride and rebellion against all superiours is it , for one to perswade himselfe that he is by his priuate spirit immediatly taught of God , vnderstands all doctrine reueiled by God , needs no instruction or direction from his Pastour , but may iudge and censure him , yea & with him all the ancient Pastours , Doctours , Bishops , and Saints of Gods Church , and may preferre his owne priuate iudgment and opinion before the generall Iudgment and doctrine of Gods Church ? How forcible a perswasion to pride and presumption is it , for one to assure himselfe that he is sure of Gods fauour , and of keeping it ▪ of remission of his sinnes , and of perseuerance in grace to the end , and that no sinne or offence can separate him from the fauour of God and from heauen ? yea that he is as iust and perfect as Peter , Paul , and the mother of God ▪ that God fauours him as much as he did Christ , and will as assuredly free him from hell and bring him to heauen a● he hath done Christ , and that without any his labour ; that he hath as much right to heauen as Christ hath , and can be no more damned then Christ can be . Which , are Luthers and Zuinglius words . The assurance of all which cannot but be a vehemēt perswasion to cause any man highly to esteeme of himselfe , and to neglect all humility and feare of himselfe , and all care with feare and trembling to worke his saluation . By all which is euident that this Protestāt doctrine is a great motiue and incentiue to all idlenesse , lust , cruelty , and pride , and so to all other vices ; and a strong impediment to the practise & exercise of all contrary vertues and perfection . SVBDIV. 4. Bad life , 1. In the Common people , 2. In the Ministers . 3 In the first Reformers of Protestant religion , confessed to be an effect of this doctrine . WHICH yet that it may more plainly appeare , and the more fully by example and practise be conuinced , I will produce the open confession of many prime Protestants by whom this fruit and effect of this priuate spirit , and the doctrine of it , is confessed in their practise . 1. In generall , of all the common people . 2. More particularly of their Ministers and maisters . 3. Most specially of the chief founders & pillars of their religion . By all whose conf●ssion is made apparent that lewd life , wicked works , and all licentious & Epicurean liberty among Protestants is neither a corruption of the time , nor an infirmity of mans nature , nor a Nationall vice only , nor yet an abuse of doctrine , or a defect of good order and discipline ; but only and truly a proper fruit and effect , naturally issuing from the substance of their doctrine , and conformable to the principles of it , being borne , nourished , and increasing together with it , and by vertue of it gaining breath , strength , and ability . And first concerning the vulgar and common people ▪ For Germany where the Ghospel began , 1. Luther confesseth that the world groweth dayly worse ; that men are now more reuengfull , couetous , licentious then they were euer before in the Papacy (a) . That , Before time when we were seduced by the Pope , euery man did willingly follow good works , and now euery man neither faith nor knoweth any thing , but how to get all to himselfe by exactions , pillage , theft , lying , vsury &c. (b) . That , It is a wonderfull thing and full of scandall , that from the time in which the pure doctrine of the Ghospell was first recalled to light , the world should dayly grow worse . That no History of the Gentils made mention of so diabolicall malice & hatred as is found among those to whom the word is preached . The nobility , Husbandmen and all are growne so wicked , that whereas before ( in Papistry ) they had some shew of modesty , now they are growne so mad and furious as though they were all full of diuels . That , Men who bragge now of the Gospell and faith in their words , are , if they be inwardly examined , nothing at all : therfore the greatest of those who heare the Gospell , do deceiue themselues , and with their false faith go to hell . That , In this only we now shew our selues professours of the Ghospell , in that we will communicate vnder both kinds , throw downe Images , eat flesh ▪ and neither fast nor pray . This is the witchery of Sathan , that he will draw men from the Pope , but not to Christ. This Luther of his new conuertites the first fruit of his Ghospell . Melancthon , Luthers great friend and the glory of the first Protestants , saith that , The case is cleare that in these Countries all time and care is spent in drinking , banqueting , and cups ; & that the people are come to that barbarousnesse , that they thinke if they fast but one day they cannot liue till the next night . Erasmus Sarcerius , a prime Lutheran , acknowledges that It cannot be otherwise but that lust must preuaile , sith fornication & adultery are accounted among vs for no sins , for old and yong do nothing but drinke and dance . And wheras among the ancient Germans an adulterer was not so much as heard off , now that sinne is growne so common that it is counted but a sporte and iest , and often Adulterers are more esteemed then honest and shamfast men . Smidelinus , as famous as the rest , saith , That , Since we haue heard that to fast is neither a good worke nor pleasing to God , we haue left all manner of fasting and betaken our selues only to bankets and drinkings ; so that if a man mention but fasting he is suspected that he is turned papist . That , Our Ghospellers are so far from mending their manners , that nothing but bestiality , Epicur●sme , gluttony , vsury , pride , blasphemy and prophanation of Gods holy name is among them . And , That the whole world may see that they are no Papists , nor put any trust in good works , they do not any good worke at all , insteed of fasting they drinck day and night , insteed of praying they banne and curse others . And do so horrible blaspheme the name of God , that the like is not heard among the Turks . And yet this must be so Euangelicall that they notwithstanding dare assure themselues that they haue faith in God , haue God propitious to them , and are better then Idolatrous Papists . Brentius saith , that , Such is the corruption of manners in these times , and such the desire to do wrong , that there is no occasion of confiding in good works : for why shall they confide in them which they haue not ? Ioan. Spangenberge saith , that , It is a true word , and often repeated by many Doctors , that after the reuelation of Antichrist men wil be so wild that they will neither acknowledge nor haue any care of God , but will do as they will , what the diuell , and the flesh shal suggest . This is now fulfilled , for since the lies and deceits of Antichrist and the Pope haue beene reuealed , men begin to belieue nothing , and seing they are free from the bands of popery , they wil be free from the Ghospell and all precepts of God , and make that right and iust which euery one will. Caluin saith , that , Men of his sect are the most wicked and flagitious of all mortall men , yea so wicked that words cannot be found to expresse their wickednesse . They are horrible monsters , and diuels in mens forme . Wolphangus Musculus a prime Protestant confesseth , that , To tell the truth they are become so vnlike themselues , that wheras in the Papacy they were religious in their errour and superstition , now in the light of the knowne truth , they are more prophane then the very sonnes of this world . Andreas Musculus , another famous Lutheran , also saith : The case thus standeth at this present with vs Lutherans , that if any be desirous to see a great rable of knaues , of persons turbulent , deceitfull , coseners , vsurers , let him go to any citty where the Ghospell is purely preached , and he shall find them there by multituds . It is more manifest then day-light , that there neuer among the Ethnickes , Turkes , and other Infidels were more vnbridled , and vnruly persons with whome all vertue & honesty is quite extinct , then are among the Professours of the Ghospell at this day . That , to speake of fasting is but to loose paper and tyme : the Germans care not now for fasting , but for bibbing and banquetting : if any shall but mention fasting , though he alleadge neuer so much Scripture for it , he shall presently be counted a Papist , or an Heretike . Bucer , one of the first , and most prime reformers confesseth , that the thing which the greatest part do seeme chiefly to haue aymed at by the Ghospell , is to cast off the yoake of all whatsoeuer manner of discipline , pennance , and Religion which remayned in Papistry , and to do all thinges according to the will and lust of their flesh . For which it is not vngratefull to them to heare , that a man is iustifyed by only Fayth , and not by good workes , to which they haue no desire at all . Paulus Eberus , a prime reformer with Luther , confesseth , That our whole Euangelicall congregation is so full of Schismes and offences , that it is nothing lesse then that it makes shew to be , which while all see with their owne eyes , not without cause they doubt whether our euangelicall company be the true Church , in which so many , and so enormous vices are seene . Iacobus Andreas , a great promotour of Lutheranisme , confesses that , Christian and serious discipline commanded by Christ , and required of Christians , is esteemed among vs new popery & monkery ; for since we learned to be saued by only faith in Christ , good works haue been left of , sith without them we may be saued by relying vpon Christ only and his grace and merits . And that the world may know that they are no Papists , nor do put any trust in good works , they will not do any good worke at all : but insteed of fasting , will night & day lye bibbing and banqueting , instead of praying stand swearing . And this kind of life is called by them Euangelicum Institutum , the institution of the Ghospell . Wigandus a famous man , one of the Centurians , sayth , That the youth among the Ghospellers become dayly lesse tractable , & more bould to commit those vices which in former tymes men of years knew not . Simon Vion cries : VVoe vpon Lub●cke , Hamburge , Rostocke for their adulteries , fornications drunkennesse , vsury , lying , and all vices ; and woe to Saxony for keeping such a light of Euangelicall truth in so wicked life and manners ! So of the rest . To all which we will adde Erasmus , though not one of their Religion , yet esteemed by them as a fauourer , & a present eye witnesse of them , and their life , who pronounceth this sentence of them : Looke , sayth he , euery where vpon these Euangelicall people , and bring me one whome this Ghospell hath made of a drunkard , sober ; of a ●eacher , chast ; of one shamelesse , shamfast . I can shew many who are become worse then they were before , whom I knew pure , sincere , and without dissembling ; the same I haue seene , after they gaue themselues to this Euangelicall sect , to haue learned to talke of wenches , to play at dice , to leaue of praying , to be most ●mpatient , reuengefull of all iniuries , vaine , viperlike in manners , and destitute of all humanity , I speake by experience . Wherupon it grew to a prouerbe , ( witnesse one of their owne ) among them , that when they were disposed to yield to their natural lust , they would say ; To day we will liue Lutheran like . All which is spoken of the Lutherans in Germany . For the Protestants of England ( to omit for breuity other Nations , and their life ) M. Geffrey a great preacher and trauailer , confesseth plainely : I may freely speake what I haue plainely seene in the course of some trauells , and obseruation of some courses , that in Flandres was neuer more drunkennesse , in Italy more wantonnesse , in Iury more hypocrisy , in T●rkie more impiety , in Tartary more iniquity , then is practised generally in England , and particulerly in London . M. Stubs , a like famous preacher , who trauelled through all England to see the māners of the people , after all his iourney pronounceth this sentence : As concerning the people I found them in most places , dissolute , proud , enuious , malicious , disdaineful , couetous , ambitious , carelesse of good workes ; that for good workes who seeth not that they ( the Papists ) were farre beyond vs , and we farre behind them . In witnesse whereof he recounts what Monasteries , Churches , Hospitalls , Bridges , Schooles ▪ Colledges ▪ and Vniuersityes were builded by Catholickes , and pulled downe by Protestants . The Puritans in their mild Defence confesse , and say : VVhat eye so blind that it doth not gush out with teares to behould the misery of our supposed Church , I meane , the great ignorance , the superficiall worship of God , the fearefull blasphemyes , and swearing in houses and streets , and the dishonour of Superiours , the pride , cruelty , fornications , adulteries , drunkennesse , couetousnesse , vsuries , and other like abominations . O be hould and pitty the woefull and lamentable state of our Church in these thinges ! And thus much of the state of the vulgar and common sort of Protestants , in what kind of vertue and perfection , this their new Ghospell hath trayned them vp for their deuotion , life , and manners , euen in the first and purest tyme of it . For the Clergy , the lampes & conductours of the rest , what , and of what note hath beene their life and conuersation in generall both in England and Germany , I will for England ( to auoid both offence and tediousnesse ) referre the Reader desirous to know thē to the Owles Almanack , made by the Puritans against the Bishops , and to the Volume of Saints , Pasquill vnto Martin iunior , and Pasquill and Marphorius , made by Protestants against Puritans , all printed the yeare 1589. in Queene Elizabeths raigne ; and to Doctour Sutcliffes answere to a libell supplicatory , where the Puritans are described for their pride , malice , cruelty , couetousnesse , vsury gluttony , and their chamber cheere , and other good matters kept for a rare banquet , too shamefull , and eu●dently appearing . All conuincing what is their life and manners , and all practised insteed of fasting and other godly exercise . And for Germany I wil only bring two or three witnesses for the generall , to wit Wolfphangus Musculus who , speaking of their Clergy , saith ; If they do any thing vpright & iust , they do it not sincerly with any good intention , but obiter , & by the way , as altogeather neglecting that which is to be done by faithful ministers , and are so farre from bringing in errours and superstition of doctrine as formerly was done , that they do by their manners giue occasion to the people to fall into an indifferency of religion and Epicurisme , and into such a neglect of all religion , that none neede to feare that by the example of the ministery men should become hypocrites , superstitious worshippers of Images , and Iustice-workers , for from this care they do aboundantly deliuer themselues , and others . Ioan ▪ Wigandus saith , that of the ministers many are parasites and flatterers , who fraudulently excuse the sinnes of great men , and kindle coales of mischiefe by which Polititians do thrust out sincere preachers out of their places , and make them suffer more then women in childbed . Paulus Eberus saith of them , that if we looke vpon the Euangelicall Doctours , we shall find that some moued with vaine glory , others with enuious zeale , others with contentions , others with other vices , do all destroy more with their wicked life , then they build with their true doctrine . Which shall suffice for the generality of the ministery . For particular persons , obseruing that we speake not of the declining and worst age of their Church , but of the reforming and best time , nor of the vulgar sort of ministers , but of their prime men and principall pillars among their reforming ministers ; nor out of our writers , but out of their owne accusation and condemnation of themselues ; we will in generall looke into the life of some of their principall founders of their Religion , and se what life and manners in them their new doctrine did togeather with their reformation beget & nourish . Al which was ominously foreshewed by prodigious monsters , first of a calfe at Friburge in Misnia with a head like to a monkes hood , then of a hogge at Hall in Saxony with a shauen crowne like a priest ; both in the yeare before that Luther cast of his habit , and afterwards incestuously conioyned himselfe with one of the nine Nunnes which Koppen enticed out of the Monastery of Nimpsen in Saxony . And first for Luther that man of God , that light of the world , that third Elias , that first Euangelist , & next to Christ & S. Paul , with much more before noted ( as they call him , ) if we cōsider his life and doctrine what it was while he belieued and imbraced the Catholicke faith , and compare it with the same what it was after he made his reformation , we shall clearly perceaue the fruit and effect of this their new Ghospel for life & manners . And first for his life before his reuolt he confesseth himselfe , and it is confessed by his owne followers , that He liued in his Monastery punishing his body with watching , fasting , & prayer (a) . That he honoured the Pope of meere conscience . That he kept chastity , pouerty , & obedience (b) . Whatsoeuer he did , he did it with a simple heart , of good zeale , for the glory of God , fearing grieuously the last day , and desirous to be saued , from the bottome of his heart (c) . Which are his owne words . But after he inuented his libertine Ghospell , he confesseth himselfe , and the same is confessed by his followers . 1. For lust and sensuality , that He esteemed nothing more sweet or louing vpon the earth then the loue of a woman if a man can get it (d) . That it was no more in his power to be without a woman then to be a man , that the act of the flash is as necessary , and more necessary , & no more to be stayed or omitted then to eat , drinke , sleepe , purge , make cleane the nose (e) &c. Wherupon he confesseth that , I am burned with the great flame of my vntamed flesh , I who ought to be feruent in spirit am feruent in the flesh , in lust , sloth &c. Eight dayes are now past wherin I neither write , pray , nor study , being vexed partly with the temptation of the flesh , partly with other troubles . But (f) saith he ) it sufficeth me to know the glory of the riches of God , and of the lambe which taketh away the sinnes of the world , from him sinne cannot draw vs although we should commit fornication , or kill a thousand times a day . Vpon which his lust , neither respecting his vow made to God of chastity , which made it a sinne to commit any act of carnality , nor the Imperiall law which made it losse of ones head ; nor the shame of the world , at which all wondred & many were ashamed & scandalized , (g) nor the calamities of the time in which by the insurrection of the Boores , or common people , (h) incited by him were killed to the number of one thousand , and all Germany was in misery : but impatient of staying so much as one night , he secretly at night , hauing present only Pomeran the Priest , Luke the Painter , and Apell●s the Lawyer , (i) without any communication with his friends , the yeare 1525. coupled himselfe to one of the Runagate Nunnes , enticed out of Nympsen by Leonard Koppen , Katherine Bor● by name , a beautifull yonge woman of 26. yeares of age , who within few dayes after the mariage , as Erasmus sayth , was deliuered of a child , and so , as one fayth of him , Luther was yesterday a Monke , to day a Bridgroome to morrow a Husband , and the next a Father . Which was the first fruit , and one of the principall motiues of Luthers Reformation . But let vs heare his Examen of his owne conscience , & his confession of himselfe : VVhat , sayth he , (a) haue I done all this day ? Two houres cacaui ( too beastly to be englished ) three houres I eat , and fower houres I was idle . Againe , (b) VVe eat till death ▪ we drinke till death ▪ we eat and drinke till we be poore , and go to hell , cacamus ad mortem . (c) I sit heere senselesse and stupid in idlenesse , praying little , mourning nothing at al for the Church . And laughing at the folly of S. Hierome , Benedict , Bernard and Francis , who labouring to represse the heat of the flesh by praying , fasting & afflicting their bodyes , he sayth , (d) He hath a more easy and ready way , so that a wench be not wanting , that is , to haue a wench alwayes in the house , which is the most present remedy for that disease , and she as a woman ought to help a friend in that case . And least he should be thought to do otherwise thē he taught , his doctrine was according to his practise ; for he taught , That to increase and multiply is not a precept , but more then a precept , which is not in our power to slippe or omit : but more necessary then to eat , drinke , purge and sleep ▪ That , (e) the Husband shal say to his wife , if thou wilt not come , let the maid or another come , and if that will not suffice , dismisse Vas●hi and admit He●ter . That (f) As God , seuerely prohibited ●o kill , & not commit adultery , so much more did he command to marry . For prayer and deuotion , he taught , That (g) God hath promised to heare our prayers , therefore after thou hast prayed once or twice , thou must belieue thou art heard , and so must pray no more , least thou tempt God , and abuse his patience in hearing thee . And writing to a noble man , he affirmes , that , (h) If we pray often for the same thing , we shew little trust in God ; and so with our incredulous prayer we more & more offend God ; for to aske the same thing often it nothing els but to conceaue that before we were not heard , & so do pray against the promises of God. Therefore (i) we must not vse many words with God , but let such short prayers as these suffice , Help vs , O God. Father haue mercy on vs. &c. That (k) Papists do foolishly teach men to pray , fast , and do pennance ; only say thou , that all thou canst do , is nothing , and this is to prepare the way for God , though in the meane tyme thou do nothing but drinke Malmesy and walke vpon Roses , and pray not word at all . That , when (l) thou prayest whether it be standing or kneeling , say boldly ; Lord , I aske that thou heare me , and I will that thou graunt my request , and so it must , and shal be ; and thus pray and no otherwise , or els say thou , I will neither pray to thee , nor haue thee prayed vnto . And lastly , that No (m) man can say , Our Father , except he ioyne with it curses and execrations ; for Our Father , is not well sayd without banninges and cursings . This was Luthers doctrine , and manner of Prayer . For other good workes , and good life , and both for obligation & practise of them , he taught , 1. That , (n) only faith doth iustify , and only that fayth , which includes not , not hath annexed Charity . That (o) Only fayth is necessary to make vs iust , all other thinges being free , and neither commanded nor forbidden . That (p) Fayth except it be without any the least good workes doth not iustify , yea is no fayth . 2. For good workes , that (q) This shal be a rule for vnderstanding of Scripture , that wheresoeuer the Scripture doth commaund to do goods workes , it is to be vnderstood to prohibit them . That , (r) though the Papists bring heapes of Scripture , as commending good workes , yet I care not for them , though they bring more ; Thou Papist art very bragge with thy good works and scripture , yet scripture is a seruant to Christ , therefore it moues me nothing . Rely thou vpon the seruant , I will rely vpon the Maister and Lord of Scripture : to him I yield , and I know that he will not lye , nor lead me into errour . I will rather adhere to him , then for all scripture to be altered a hairs breadth from my opinion . 3. For the ten Commandements . (s) That therefore the ten Commandments do not belong to vs Christians , but only to Iewes , which is proued out of the Text , speaking to them whome it brought out of Aegypt , who were Iewes , not Christians . (t) VVe will not admit that any the least precept of Moyses be imposed vpon vs. (u) Therefore looke that Moyses withall his law be sent packing , in malam rem , with a mischiefe , & that thou be not moued with any terrour of him , but hould him suspected for an heretick , cursed and damned , and worse then the Pope , or the Diuell . 4. Therfore to conclude vp all , for sinne he sayth , (w) That true and right Saints must be subiect to great and heinous sinnes ▪ and to continue such , as they may not be ashamed to pray , Forgiue vs our sinnes . That (x) if it be true grace , let it bring true , not feined sinne , God saues not feined sinners : be a sinner and sinne stoutly , but be more strong in fayth , and reioyce in Christ . It sufficeth vs to know the Lambe , from him no sinne can draw vs though we sinne , & commit fornication or murder a thousand tymes in one day . That , (y) a Christian is so rich , that though he would yet he cannot be damned by any so great sinnes , except he will not belieue , for no sinnes can damne him ●ut infidelity . And that himselfe did confesse to his Ghostly Father D. Staupitius , not sins of women , but solid and horrible heinous offences (z) . This was the doctrine , & accordingly the practise of this Saint , Prophet , Elias Euangelist , Angel , and light of the world , the singular , eminent , & euer-admired organ of the holy Ghost , endewed with so great piety & gifts , and such a Doctour and interpreter of scripture , as was not in the world since the Apostles , as before he is by his followers extolled . All which sayings of Luther are in these words cited by Gaspar Scioppius who was a long time a follower and professour of Luthers doctrine . Secondly , For his malice and enuy not only against the Pope and Catholiks , which was implacable ; but also against the Sacramentaries his brethren & fellow reformers , whose part our english Protestants follow , he is so farre charged by the Zuinglians with breach of all Christian charity towards them ▪ that he not only cals them hereticks , damnable and execrable fectaries , alienated from the Church of Christ , whom he curses , & all concord with them , and refuses to haue any familiarity by word or writing ▪ or spe●ch with them , or any of them for euer : but also saith , they are insatanized , supersatanized , and persatanized , in whose mouth sathan is infused , perfused , and transfused . For which saith Zuinglius of him , Sathan doth endeauour wholy to possesse him . And , say the Tigurins , his booke is full of Diuels , immodest railings , anger and rage . And say our english Protestāts he doth breake all Christian modesty , (a) and is far beyond the bounds of Charity (b) . 3. For his pride and vaine insulting ouer all sorts of Princes , prelates , and opposers of him , it is apparent not only by his intemperate writings against Henry the 8. of England , and all the princes of Germany ; but also by the plaine accusation of his owne brethren . 1. By the Tigurins (c) who expresly con●emne him for pertinacy , & too much insolency . 2. By Oeco●●mpadius (d) who accuseth him of being puffed vp with pride and arrogancy , that he is in danger to be seduced by Sathan . 3 By Conradus Regius , who laies to his charge such pride by which he doth extoll himselfe in his writings , that God for it tooke frō him his true spirit , and in place of it gaue him a proud , angry , and lying spirit . And to confirme all this , he was so arrogant and impudent that beyond all ciuility he arrogantly auouches of himselfe , that he is such a one as the world hath not had these many ages . That himselfe is the only mortall man whom Satan foresaw to be hurtfull to him . That , Since the Apostles time no Doctour , or writer hath so excellently and cleerly confirmed , instructed and comforted the consciences of the secular states , as I haue done , by the singular grace of God. This certainly I know , that neither Austine , nor Ambrose , who are yet in this matter the best , are equall to me heerein . That , The Ghospell is so copiously preached by vs , that truly in the Apostles time it was not so cleare . Wherupon euen Caluin himselfe charges him to be subiect to great vices , and wishes that he had beene more carefull in acknowledging them . And himselfe confesseth of himselfe , that his profession is not of manners but doctrine . wishing that he were remoued from the office of preaching , because his manners and life did not answer to his profession . Which may suffice for a conuincing example to shew what fruit this new doctrine and priuat spirit brought forth in the first founder of it . For Caluin , Beza , Zuinglius , and others the chiefe supporters of this doctrine & new Religion , it might suffice to shew their life & disposition for manners , to remember that they were most of them , if not all , either Religious men tyed by vow to Pouerty , Obedience , and Chastity ; or els at the least Priests in holy Orders obliged to Chastity , and yet euery one of them by the liberty of their Ghospell offered vp , as the first fruits of it , themselues by execrable apostacy to all lust and sensuality in incestuous copulation , either with like professed Nunnes , or other women subuerted and enticed by them . Wherupon as Luther an Augustine Frier began the dance , so his schollers Bucer a Dominican , Pe●er Martyr a Canon regular , & Bernardinus Ochinus a Franciscan followed & ioyned themselues with professed Nunnes ; and with them Oecolampadius a Brigittan Monke , Pelican and Spanberge Franciscans , Knox a Frier , Zuinglius and Caluin Priests , Carolostadius an Arch-deacon , Gebardus an Archbishop of Colen , and Vergerius a Cardinall chose for their mates other women . In like manner in England Cranmer , and Sands of Canterbury & Yorke both Priests , and Archbishops , Hooper of Worcester , Barlow of Chicester , Downhan of Westchester , Scory of Hereford , Barkely of Bath and Wels , Couerdale of Excester , all Bishops ; Bale in Ireland , Bucer at C●mbridge , and Martyr at Oxford , with infinit more , all Monkes and Religious , did al of them plante and disperse the new Ghospells doctrine through England by apostating from their vowed chastity to sensuall copulation , vnder the title of mariage , with wantons like themselues . This in generall , I say , may suffice to discerne the fruit of this new Ghospell what it brought forth for sanctity and holinesse of life , and by what bellowes it was first blowen and kindled in the Professors of it . He that is desirous to see more particulers of Zuinglius , and his fellow Ministers of Zurich , Leo , Iude , Erasmus , Fabricius , and eight other , how they demanded of the Bishop of Constance liberty of marrying wiues , for the satisfying ( to vse their owne wordes ) of their lust , in which they spent ( say they ) their whole thoughts and meditation to satisfy their burning desires of the flesh ; for which ( they confesse ) they are made infamous before the congregations haue committed many thinges vnseemely , and the people by the example of them are scandalized , and speake ill of them . Who would see of Caluin , what fine bread made of fine flower & rose-water mixed with sugar , cynamon , Anizseeds , and other spices made for him alone , he alwayes eat , & had carryed with him wheresoeuer he dyned ; what notorious sinnes he is conuinced and accused off , euen by Protestants themselues , namely by Conrandus Schusselburg a learned superintendent of Rauespurge , & the neighbour Churches in Germany , who record to the view of all the world with constant asseueration thereof ( to omit Catholike witnesses ) his Sodomiticall lust , for which he was burned publickly by the Magistrates of Noyon in France on the shoulder with a hoat iron , and his other notorious vices and lasciuiousnes , and withall what a notorious death he dyed , not only stincking with loathsome vlcers , wormes , and lice in his members ; but also swearing , cursing , blaspheming despairing , and calling vpon the Diuell . Who desires to read of Beza , how shamefully he kept Andebertus a boy , as another Ganamed , and Claudia de Mossa called by him Candida , as a strumpet , foure yeares , and then fled with her for infamy to Geneua , where he married her , and writ shamefull Epigrammes in comparing his loue to them both ; & how being 69. years old , presently vpon her death he marryed another yonge widdow Katherine . All which are witnessed of him by Hessufius a Protestant & famous Lutheran , togeather with the aforesayd Schusselburge , who in generall besids the former particulers accuse him to haue liued like a Hogge in the durt of all obscene lasciuiousnesse , flagitious lust , and wicked whoordome and adultery , celebrated to his owne shame by his owne writings . Who desires to read of Iacobus Andreas as famous a Lutheran in Germany , for he was Chancelour of the Vniuersity of Tubinge , as Caluin was at Geneua , it is diuulged by his owne fellows Seleucerus , Musculus & Hospinian , to haue neuer byn seen so much as to say the Lords prayer , neither frō bed nor to bed , nor to haue shewne any sparkle of godlines , but great lightnesse in his wordes , deedes , and counsels ; to haue beene guilty of most heynous couetousnesse , adultery , sacriledge , robbing the poore , whose goods he carryed from Misnia & Saxony to Tubinge ; to haue been without any conscience or Religion at all ; and to haue had no other God but Mammon & Bacchus . Who , I say , wil see these at large and more of them , and of many other prime Euangelicall founders ( to omit Cranmer his carrying his wench in his trunke , Knoxk his marrying his step-mother , and other marrying many wiues , some hauing to the number often or twelue aliue ) let him read the liues of these , and other such like prime Protestants collected by Brereley , out of their own Authours , and the Protestants Apology made by the same Authour . By all which it will euidently appeare , that as the foresayd Protestant doctrine doth blow the bellowes , and plaine the way to this licentious liberty , and loosnesse of Epicurean life and manners ; so the followers of it , induced by the same , did as notoriously practise and follow the same ; so that their life was made agreable to their doctrine , and both did run on ioyntly togeather in all wicked and abominable practise of all sinne and iniquity . To which , as contrary , if we oppose the good life of Catholiks , as a marke of their fayth and Religion , confessed euen by our aduersaries , the one will better illustrate the other . Of our first Apostles of England , S. Augustine , Mellitus , Iustus , and Iohn , it is confessed by Hollinshead , that after they were receaued into Canterbury , they began to follow the trade of life which the Apostles vsed , exercising themselues in continuall prayer , watching , and preaching , despising all wordly thinges , liuing in all points , according to the doctrine which they set forth . And the like is reported by Stow , Godwin , and others . And both Godwin & Fox mention and confesse diuers miracles wrought by S. Augustine , through Gods hand . All contrary to the former life of Luther . Of S. Dominike , S. Francis , S. Bernard , and other such like founders of Religious orders , it is confessed by Tindall , That they were holy men . By Melancthon , that they vsed obedience , pouerty and chastity , without any sinne or impiety . By Pantaleon , That they were men famous for learning and holynesse . By Fox , of S. Francis , that he cast away all thinges from him , outwardly chastised himselfe , and liued so austerely , that he couered his body with ice and snow , called pouerty his Lady , and was so desirous of Martyrdome , that he went into Syria , to the Soldan to seeke it . All farre different from the life of the first Protestant Reformers . Of S. Francis Xauerius a Iesuit , and an Apostle of India , it is confessed by M. Richard Hackluite , That he was a godly Professour and painefull Doctour of the Indian Nation in matters concerning Religion . That , after great labours , iniuries and calamities suffered with much patience , he departed , indued with all spirituall blessinges , out of this life the yeare 1552. after many thousands were by him brought to the knowledge of Christ. Of this holy man his particuler vertues , and wonderfull workes in that Religion , all the later Histories of the Indian regions are full . And by another Protestant it is sayd , that the (a) King of Portugall , hearing of the great miracles he wrought , sent his commission to his Viceroy there , dated in Aprill anno 1556. to take examination thereof by oath . VVherupon (b) by certificate it was found that he had cured miraculously the Dumbe , the Lame , the Deafe , and with his word healed the Sicke , and (c) raised sundry dead persons to life . That (d) after his death they found his body , not only vnconsumed , but also yielding forth fragrant smels , from whence they carryed it to Goa , and placed it there in the Church of S. Paul , where yet to this day it remaineth free from corruption : of which are witnesses all the inhabitants of that Citty , and Trauellers thither . And by M. Abraham Hartwell in his booke dedicated to the Bishop of Canterbury his Lord & Maister , saith , That it is reported , how in the discouery of the kingdome of Congo the yeare 1587. by Odoardo Lopez , that great and vndoubted m●racls were shewed by God , in the presence of a whole army . Of which the Authour sayth , that though this conuersion of Cōgo was accomplished by Massing Priests , & after the Romish māner , yet this action , which tendeth to the glory of God , shall it be concealed and not committed to memory , because it was performed by Popish Priests and Popish meanes ? God forbid . Let the Germans shew any such in the peruersion of Germany to Protestancy . Of the Catholike people of ancient tyme , it is confessed by the Centurists , that although in this age ( they speake of the seauen hundred yeares after Christ ) the worship of God was darkened with mans traditions and superstition , yet the study to serue God and liue godly and iustly was not wanting to the miserable common people &c. they were so attentiue to their prayers , as they bestowed almost the whole day therein &c. they did exhibit to the Magistrate due obedience , they were most studious of amity , concord and society , so as they would easily remit iniuries , all of them were careful to spend their tyme in honest vocation and labour ; to the poore , and to strangers they were curteous and liberall , and in their iudgements , and contracts most true . Of the Catholike Prelates of ancient tyme in England he that desires to see their vertues commended , let him read M. Godwin , then Chaplain to the Lord Treasurer , now one of their new Bishops , and he shall find , giuen by him , rare and extraordinary comendations to the Bishops of England , as S. Dunstan , Elphege , Lanfranke , Anselme , Rodulph Baldwine , Hubert VValter , S. Edmund , Iohn Peckam , Robert Winchelsey , Iohn Stratford , Thomas Bradwardine , Simon Sudbury , S. Hugh , Hugh Pateshall , Paulinus , Geffrey Plantagenet , Richard Scroope , Richard Poore , Richard Fox , Iohn Morton , Reginald Poole , Cuthbert Tonstall , and others . Whereas of our late Protestant Bishops he shall find little or no prayse , and yet the writer one of their own Bishops . Of the ancient common Catholike people of England , it is confessed by M Stubs , a great enemy to Papists , that for good workes who seeth not that heerin they are far beyond vs , and we far behind them : for example what memorable , & famous buildings , and what ancient Monuments haue they left to the world behind thē ? VVhat Churches , Chapels , and other houses of prayer did they erect , to the end the Religion and seruice of God might be continued ? Yea what Monasteries , Abbeyes , Priories , and other religious houses ? VVhat number of good Bridges did they make ? How many Almes houses , Hospitalls , and spittles did they found ? What high wayes ? VVhat pauements , and causies ? In summe , VVhat famous Colledges , Halles , and Vniuersities ? VVhat Schooles , and free schooles ? &c. Also . Is it not a shame vnto vs , that our fore-Fathers , liuing in the tymes of superstitions , &c. should notwithstanding so farre passe vs in good workes , that we may not be compared with thē in any small measure ? Of the late and present Catholiks generally of all Coūtryes Syr Edwin Sandes , that great Parlament-man sayth , that there are in great multitude on both sides ( Protestants and Catholikes ) ( for so there are vndoubtedly ) men vertuous and learned , fraught with the loue of God , and the truth , aboue all thinges men of memorable integrity of hart and affection whose liues are not deare to them , much lesse their labours to be spent for the good of Gods Church . And some side of a leafe afterwards , he further fayth : Let the Protestants looke with the eye of Charity vpon them ( of the Papacy ) as well as of seuerity , and they shall find some excellent orders of gouernement , some singular helpes for increase of godlines and deuotion , for the conquering of sinne , for the profi●ing in vertue ; and contrarywise in themselues , looking with a more single and lesse indulgent eye , they shall find there is no such absolute perfection in their doctrine and reformation &c. And he further sayth of the Catholike Clergy : (a) That in their sermons much matter , both of Fayth and piety is eloquently deliuered by men surely of wonderfull zeale and spirit . And (b) that all Countryes are full of the Iesuites bookes of prayer , and piety in their owne language , and wonderfull is the reputation , which redoundes thereby to their order . In so much as he (c) sayth of the late Pope Clement the eight : He is reputed to be a man of good calme disposition &c. deuout in his wayes , and thinkes without doubt , that he is in the right , he will weep very often , some conceaue vpon a weaknesse and tendernes of mind , habitued therein by custome ; others say vpon piety , and godly compassion ; at his Masses , at his pr●cessions , at his fixing vp of his Iubilies , his eyes are still watering , sometymes streaming with teares &c. He is an enemy to the licentious liues of the Fryars , to the pompe & secular brauery of Cardinals , &c. He is magnificall and cerimoniall in his outward comportment , in his priuate austere and humble . And concludeth there that he was a good man , a good Prince , and a good Prelate . Likewise M. Stubbes confesseth , that certainely to speake the truth , there is many tymes found , conscionabler and playner dealing among most of the Papists , then among many Protestants ; and if we looke narrowly into the ages past , we shall find more godlinesse , deuotion , and zeale ( though blind ) more loue one towardes another , more fidelity & faythfullnesse euery way in them , then is now to be found in vs. Now cōparing , as the fruit of their doctrine , the life and manners of the forecyted Protestants with the life and manners of the Catholikes , the ancient of the one with the ancient of the other , the moderne of the one with the moderne of the other , the founders of religion of the one with the founders of the other , the preachers and teachers of the one with the teachers of the other , the commō sort of the one with the common sort of the other , and discerning both by their fruites , whether are in their life more Christian , and are to Christiā doctrine more conformable , Inimici nostri sint Iudices , Our enemies ( whose authority , as before is confessed by themselues to be a most strong argument against themselues ) as they are witnesses of both , so let them be Iudges , of both . The Conclusion , comparing the priuate spirits doctrine , with the Catholike Churches doctrine , whether leads to the greater honour of God. SECT . IX . ONE thing remaines , for the accomplishing of this Chapter ( which is ( for satisfying of an vsuall & triuial ostentation of the Protestants , that they forsooth do more , in their religion , then we in ours , honour God & Iesus Christ ) to compare & pararell them and their priuate spirit with vs , and our Catholicke Churches spirit in the principal points of their and our doctrine , and therby to propose to the indifferent reader a generall view of both , wherby he may discerne how far they with their priuate spirit and doctrine do dishonour and derogate , 1. From God. 2. From Christ . 3. From Saints and Angels in heauen . 4. From holy Scripture . 5. Frō holy Church . 6. From Sacraments . 7. From man and his meanes to saluation ; which are faith , grace , iustification , good works , freewill , and the rest : In all which their doctrine is negatiue and detractiue in euery one . And on the contrary how we and our doctrine do honour , & attribut to the same God , and Christ , all worthy and due respect of veneration & honour in all , which as it is affirmatiue in it selfe , so it is honourable to God , and agreable to reason in all and euery particular point and opinion in controuersy . First , therfore for God , they dishonour and derogate , 1. From the blessed Trinity , in that ( as before ) some of them do deny the distinction of the three persons , some the vnity of one nature , some the consubstantiality of the Sonne with the Father , some the deity of the Sonne from the Father , as God of God , some the deity of the holy Ghost as God , some the prayer Holy Trinity one God haue mercy vpō vs. We with the ancient Church acknowledge three persons and one God , the second person God of God , and consubstantiall with the father , and the third person of the holy Ghost proceeding frō both the father & the sonne , & in them one holy Trinity , three persons and one God. 2. They and their spirit derogate from the mercy of God , in that , according to them , he is cruell and tyrannicall , in that he will not haue all saued , will not giue sufficient meanes to all to be saued , hath willed , appointed , and ordained millions of soules to be damned , and to sinne ▪ that for it he may damne them , and accordingly torment thē for that sinne which he himselfe willed , ordained , wrought , and compelled them vnto . We , and our Catholicke Church attribute honour to him and his mercy ; in that , according to vs , he would haue all saued , giues to all sufficient meanes to be saued , creates and ordaines all to be saued , wils not the death and damnation of any , nor doth damne any , but those who for their owne fault and sinne by themselues willingly committed against him , & his good will and goodnesse , do deserue ▪ 3. They & their spirit do derogate from Gods goodnesse , in that , according to them , he who is good & al good , yet is not pleased , pacifyed , worshipped , or delighted with good works : but doth will , ordaine , commande , compell , and necessitate bad works , and so is the authour of all euill , and all euill works in men , and doth esteeme & impute that which is wicked and sinfull in men for no sinne in them ; but accounts that which is bad good , & him that is wicked iust . We & our Catholik doctrine do attribute due honour to the same goodnesse of God ; in that , according to it , God hates , detests ▪ forbids , and punishes all sinne and sinfull actions , conuerts , sanctifies , purifies , and make cleane , pure , and iust all sinners by his grace duely disposing themselues , & so reputes them as they are become truely iust , in that God is delighted , pleased , pacified , and honoured by good workes which he doth will , command , and reward in man , who according to his will by his grace workes them . 4. They & their priuate spirit derogates from his iustice ; in that , according to their doctrine , he is short of iustice in rewarding none who deserue well , and do him seruice ; & exce●ds all iustice , in that he ordaines men to an eternall and intollerable paine who haue deserued none . 2. In that he punisheth them for that which he himselfe not only willed and commanded thē to do , but also wrought and effected in them . 3. In that he creats and dignifies them with his gifts & graces for that end that he may himselfe cruelly torture and torment them , and that in hell , for no other end but to shew his power & iustice ouer them . 4. In that he laies precepts vpon them which are impossible for them to performe , and commands them to abstaine from that which himselfe forces them to do , and wils them to practise that which he giues not power , freedome , or sufficient meanes to practise . We and our Catholicke doctrine , do honour and giue due respect to his Iustice , 1. In that , according to vs , he rewards all who deserue well , and punisheth none but those who deserue ill . 2. In that he punisheth all for their owne fault which they themselues committed , and none for that which himselfe willed . 3. In that he created all to be saued , and gaue them meanes sufficient to be saued , in which he shewed his mercy ; and punisheth with hell those who would not vse those meanes , in which he shewed his Iustice . 4. In that he gaue precepts , and made lawes easy , gaue meanes to performe them sufficient , & punisheth only those who willingly breake them . 5. They and their priuate spirit derogate from his omnipotency ; in that according to their doctrine , he is not able to place one body in two places in the B. Sacrament ; nor two bodies in one place in his natiuity , resurrection , and ascension , nor to draw a Cable rope or camell through a needles eye , nor by his absolut power to worke any more thē already he hath wrought . We and our Catholicke doctrine do attribut to his omnipotency , that he is able to do all the former , and what more he pleases to do , which is not either wicked , and so is against his goodnesse , or not contradictory , and so implies in it selfe an impossibility to be done . And in these do the Protestants & their spirit , by their doctrine , derogate from God and his Deity , from his goodnesse , his mercy , his Iustice , and his omnipotency , and impute to him wickednesse , cruelty , iniustice , and impotency . In all which we in our doctrine do the contrary . Secondly , for Christ our blessed Sauiour , they & their doctrin of the priuate spirit do dishonour him , & derogate , 1. From his felicity & beatitude in this life , denying him to be viator , and comprehensor , that is , enduring the paine and miseries of mortall men in his body , and enioying the felicity and blessednesse of glorious Saints in his soule . In which we do honour him , belieuing that from the first instant of his cōception , his soule had in his body the same blessednesse as now it enioyes in heauen by the perfect vision & fruition of God , though , by dispensation for our redemption , the same did not redound to the glory of his body till after his resurrection . 2. From his knowledge , they derogate and dishonour him , in making him ignorant and defectiue of knowledge in many things , and as a scholler to haue profited in his booke , and learning of sciences and trades as other children do . In which we giue him the honour to haue had all the treasures of knowledge and wisedome , to haue vnderstood all the perfection of all sciences and artes , and to haue perfectly conceiued all things past , present , or to come , by a diuine infused knowledge from the first instant of his conception in his mothers wombe . Thirdly , From his primacy , and supremacy ouer his Church , they derogate and dishonour him , in that they deny him , as a man sensible and visible , to haue beene the head & foundation of his Church , and to haue had any perpetual & visible monarchy of the same heere on earth . In which we honour him , belieuing that as man he is the head of men , of the Church , and of the visible monarchy of the Church which he established for euer , and that euery knee ought to bow downe and adore him as the Sauior of it , and that he hath dominion ouer all by his death and resurrection , and did also leaue a visible Vicegerent after him , by whom we should be gouerned visibly , as by himselfe inuisibly . Fourthly , from his authority to make lawes and iudge vs , they derogat and dishonour him , in that they take from him al power to make any lawes , or giue any precepts of true faith , morall life , or good manners for our instruction & direction ; & deny him as a iudge , to haue exercised any iudgment vpon the liuing and faithfull . In which we giue him the honour to haue beene our law maker , our iudge , and to haue made a new law of grace ( abrogating the old of Moyses ) and in it to haue prescribed vnto vs obedience to his precepts of faith and good life . Fiftly , From his Sanctity they derogatiue much , and dishonour him greatly ; in that they call him truly and properly a sinner , a great sinner , and the greatest sinner of all sinners ; who sinned in discurtesy to his mother , in inconsideration in his actions , in forgetfulnesse of his function , in staggering betweene praising and blaspheming God ▪ betweene hope and despaire , and in renouncing his saluation , for which he was execrable to God , & cursed with the damned , being in all these properly a sinner , and not only by the imputation of our sinnes to him , as in their opinion euen man is iust by imputation of his iustice to him , and so as truly sinfull as euer any man was iust . All which we abhorre as blasphemy , belieuing that he suffered paines , and payed therby the price of our redemption , but was innocent , impolluted , immaculate , incontaminat , and segregated from all sinners and sinfull actions , bearing the punishment of our sinne in his body , but being free from all imputation of the guilt of sinne in his soule . Sixtly , From his redemption of mankind they derogate and dishonour him . 1. In that they deny the vertue of his death , passion , and precious blood to haue been any full satisfaction or redemption of mankind , but only the in●ernal paines and suffering in his soule to haue been accepted as sufficient . 2. In that they deny the vniuersality and fulnesse of his redemption to haue been offered for all men , affirming him to haue dyed only for the elect , and to haue offered or left no meanes of redemption for the wicked and reprobat . 3. In that they deny the effect and efficacy of the same to haue extended to the abolishing and washing away of sinne , & to the inward sanctification of the soule by any inward and inherent grace and iustice , which should enable it to keep the commandments of God , and to auoid mortal offence against God. In all which we honour him and his redemption , in that , 1. We belieue and professe that his pretious bloud shed vpon the crosse , and his death and passion offered vp to God , was a full price , & a perfect redemption from sinne . 2. That the same was a full price , satisfaction , and redemption for all the sinnes of all persons in all the world . 3. That the same purchased ( of his part ) for all sinners not only are imputatiue but also an inherent and reall iustification by grace , which doth wash away the deformity of sinne , cure the infirmity of the soule , and giue strength to the keeping of Gods commandements , and to the auoiding of sinne , and so the meriting of a reward at Gods handes . Seauenthly , from his merit and satisfaction they derogate , and dishonour him , in that they deny him to haue by it satisfyed the iustice of God for any one sinne , or to haue merited to himselfe his owne exaltation to glory , or to our workes either any satisfaction for sinne , or any merit of reward by his grace . In all which we honour the same , belieuing that he fully in iustice satisfyed , and offered to God a sufficient price for our sinnes , that he merited for himselfe & his owne body the glory of his Resurrection : and to vs not only for our sinnes a full price and satisfaction , but also for our good works a vertue by grace both to satisfy in some sort for sinne , and to merit a reward of more grace present , and glory to come . Eightly , about his corporall death and passion , they shamefully derogate and dishonour him , in that they affirme he suffered both in body and soule the paines & torments of Hell , the death of the soule , the separation of the soule from God , the same infernall and eternall paines which the very Diuells and damned do suffer for the tyme , and which in rigour are due to sinne and all sinners , which except he had suffered , he had not satisfyed for vs , nor sufficiently redeemed vs. In all which we doe so honour his life and death , that we attribute to euery action and passion of his , euen to the least drop of his bloud , that worth and valew , arysing of the dignity of his diuine person , that it was sufficient to haue satisfyed for an infinit world of sinnes ; and that the paines he suffered were only in the sensible and inferiour part of the soule and body , but did not touch the superiour part of his soule ; that they were voluntarily sustained and offerred vp to God for vs , and accepted by God for vs , as being of more dignity , then the offence of all our sinnes was of indignity ; whereby he neither suffered , nor needed to suffer , nor could in the dignity of his person suffer any paines ot hell , but by the paines of the Crosse ( though by the tendernes of his coplexion more painefull to him then to any other ) did pay a sufficient price , make a full attonement , offer a perfect satisfaction , and performe the part of a complete Redeemer and Sauiour for all mankind ▪ and the sinnes of all men . Ninthly , in the certainty of his saluation , they blasphemously derogate from him , and dishonour him more then themselues , in that they affirme euery one of themselues to be infallibly certaine of his saluation , and more certaine by his speciall faith of it , then by his generall faith of the B. Trinity , or incarnation of Christ ; and yet that our B. Sauiour was fearfull , doubtfull , wauering , and vncertaine of his saluation , did strugle with the horrour of death , feared to be absorpt vp of eternall death , was tormented with the anxiety of Gods wrath and indignation , and that more then any man euer was , or could be ; in which his horrour and desolation consists the summe of their consolation , as their owne words more fully before related do expresse . In all which we do so far honour him that we affirme and belieue that the pain●s he suffered , he willingly offered vp to God for vs , that he was sure and secure that God his father did alwayes heare him , alwayes loue him , alwayes assist him , alwayes comfort him , that no feare , doubt , wauering , or perturbation did , or could euer enter into his will or vnderstanding , yea that all that time of his passion his soule had the perfect vision and fruition of God , and only his sensible partes endured those paines and torments of the crosse . Tenthly , As for his descending into hell they derogate from it , and dishonour him , in that they affirme he descended either only to the graue in body , or also to the lower hell in soule to suffer the paines of it , either before his death on the crosse , or after it in hell ; but not to haue freed the Patriarchs from Limbus by the presence of his soule there . We honour it in belieuing that he descended in soule further then to the graue ( to which he only descended in body , ) but not so far as to suffer the paines of hell in soule , but only to the Limbus patrum where he gaue the Patriarches there detained present liberty & fruition of eternall hapinesse , & afterwards carried them with him to the place of glory , and so triumphed ouer hell , & led aptiuity Ccaptiue . Eleuenthly , From his resurrection and ascension they derogate , and dishonour him both by denying him the subtility or penetration of his body , wherby he was able to passe through either the stone of the sepulcher at his resurrection , or the dores of the house at his entrance to his disciples , or the hardnesse of the heauens at his ascension ; all which they wil haue either dissolued , or opened , or diuided . We honour & attribut more dignity to the same , belieuing that by the gift of subtility or penetratiō his body did pierce & passe through the stone , the dores , and the heauens at his resurrection and ascension ( as it did also his Mothers wombe at his natiuity ) with out any diuision , dissolution , or detriment to the nature of either the one or the other ; in which also he shewed his subtility , and consequently his impassibility , or immortality . Twefthly , From his adoration , and inuocation by vs as he is now in heauen , they derogate , and dishonour him in affirming that , as man , he is not to be adored or inuocated by vs. We honour him as man so far that we bow downe at the name of Iesus , praying to him with the blind man , & the Cananean , saying , Sonne of Dauid haue mercy on vs (a) . And fall down with the (b) Sages , & (c) the womē & adore him ▪ In al which and many more , as they by their priuate spirit & the doctrine of it , do derogate & take from Christ his honour , his power , his goodnesse , his beatitude , his knowledge , his sanctity , his certainty of saluation , his adoration , and the vertue and power of his passion , redemption , resurrection , & ascension ; so do we in our Catholike doctrine attribute to same due honour and dignity ; & so both in our doctrine & practise giue more honour , praise , power , and glory to God and to Iesus Christ , then they do either in doctrine or practise . Thirdly ▪ For the Saints and blessed soules in heauen , they dishonour them , and take from them . 1. Their state of beatitude , affirming as Luther (a) and Caluin do , that they yet sleepe , and neither know what we do , nor yet enioy any present glory and beatitude till the day of Iudgment . 2. Their perfection of Sanctity , in affirming , as Caluin (b) doth both of Angels and Saints , that their obedience is imperfect , that their iustice is defectiue , and doth not satisfy God , that their works require pardon , and that in them is folly , vanity and frailty . 3. Their power of doing miracles by the gift of God , which (c) Beza , Piscator , Vrsinus , and Perkins ●hould to be a vertue proper only to God , not communicated to any creature man or Saint . 4. Their difference and degree or honour ; affirming that all are equall in glory , beatitude , and reward , and that no lawrels or crownes of accidentall beatitude are due to Martyrs , Confessours , or Virgins . 5. Their respect and esteeme with God , denying that God doth either apply in any sort their merits to vs , or doth help and respect vs for their prayers . 6. Their knowledge of vs , and our affaires on earth ; denying that they heare , vnderstand , or know vs , or any thing we do heere on earth . 7. Their charity towardes vs ; affirming they neither at our intercessious sollicite , or pray to God for vs , nor offer vp any petitions , and miseries of ours to God. 8. Their honour , and inuocation by vs ; denying it to be lawfull to worship them , to honour thē , to inuocate them , or so much as , saith Luther , to imitate and follow their example . 9. The custody and ●uition of Angels ouer vs , and their hierarchies and orders in heauen ; denying or at least doubting of the custody of our Angell guardian , & the difference of al Hierarchies and orders among Angels . In al which we and our doctrine on the contrary , do attribute to them perfect and present beatitude in their soules , complete obedience in their performing the will of God , vpright Sanctity in all their actions , extraordinary power in working miracles , notable difference of degrees of glory , eminent knowledge in vnderstanding our prayers , excellent charity in making intercession for vs , and due honour and veneration in giuing them adoration , inuocation , and imitation , befitting both the Saints for their prayers for vs , and the Angels for their custody of vs. Fourthly , For the word of God , they abuse it & take , 1. From i● , one first and principall part of it , to wit , all the vnwritten word , or which is diuine , vnwritten tradition . 2. From the written word , they chop and cut off from the old Testament fourteene peeces or partes , and some of them from the new Testament , seauen whole bookes from the Canon of scripture . 3. For the translation of scripture , they reiect the ancient , and follow euery nation , euery congregation , and euery person a new translation which best pleases them , & therby leaue no certainty of the verity of any . 4. For the sense of scripture , they contemne that which the spirit of God did inspire to the ancient Fathers , Councels , & Church , and follow that which euery mans priuate spirit suggests , and therby follow not the meaning of the spirit of God , but that of their owne spirit . 5. For their faith grounded vpon scripture , they belieue only those points which their spirit finds in that part , translation , and sense which they chose ; and therby make an vncertaine , imperfect , & mained kind of faith and religion . 6. For their Iudge and meanes to try which is scripture , and which is true sense of it , they admit not any infallible Iudgment either of Church , or of Coūcels , or of Pastours ; but leaue to euery man to choose himself what he will belieue , & to iudge and follow whom he pleases in his beliefe ; wherby they can haue neither any vnity in faith , not any certainty of scripture , of scripture sense . We in our doctrine do admit for the word of God , not only that which was written in paper , but also that which was deliuered in preaching by the Apostles . We receiue , without any addition or diminution , that Canon which the auncient Church twelue hundred yeares ago receiued ; that translation which for as many ages hath been approued ; that sense which the auncient Fathers , Councells , and Church euer since Christ allowed ; that Iudge which hath an infallible warrant from God to iudge truly and impartially of the Canon , the text , the translation , the sense , all whatsoeuer is doubtfull . And all our practise is to follow the spirit of God speaking in the auncient Fathers , Councels , & Church , by which we are secure from errour or falshood about the scripture , and sense of it . Fifthly , For the Church of God , they with their priuate spirit dishonor it and derogate from it . 1. From the power and authority of it , as not hauing , according to them , any visible head and gouernour assisted with the holy Ghost to direct and gouerne it , and to iudge of all causes and controuersies in it , and so make it headlesse and vngouerned . We honour it in acknowledging it to be a visible and perpetuall Monarchy , with a setled and spirituall both Gouernour and gouernement , hauing in it an infallible authority to iudge , and decide all causes and controuersies . 2. They derogate from the visibility , perpetuity , and infallibility of the same , making it not only subiect to errour and corruption ; but to haue erred and perished , or at least become inuisible for many ages . We honour it , in belieuing that it cannot erre , faile , perish , become inuisible , or be corrupted in fayth , but that it is the piller of truth , against which , assisted by the holy Ghost the gates and power of hell and heresy cannot preuaile . 3. They derogate from the vnity , sanctity , vniuersality , and succession of the same , as notes and markes to distinguish it from all other congregations , which they reiect , and admit not . We reuerence and respect it as one , holy , Catholike and Apostlike Church , which no other congregation is , or can be . 4. They derogate from the vncontrollable authority & stability of the decrees of Councells , and from the infallible testimony of the vnanime consent of the Fathers & Doctors of the Church , both which they at their pleasure censure & condemne . We receaue , imbrace , and follow them as guids and directours to truth , and as witnesses and testimonies of truth ; belieuing that which they belieue , and reiecting that which they before reiected . 5. They derogate from the splendour and beauty of the Church in the state of Prelates , in the single life of the Clergy , in the retirednesse of the Religious persons , in the ornaments of the Churches , and in the variety of so many orders and professions , all which they reiect & condemne as needlesse or superstitious . We reuerence and honour the same , as tending to the externall honour of God , and the magnificence of his Church , thereby making the Church beautifull as the Moone , elect as the Sunne , & wel ordered as an Army of men . And to cōclude , they make the Church the mystery of iniquity , a whore , a harlot , and a strumpet , the whore of Babylon , drunken with al abominable filth of superstition , and abomination of idolatry and antichristianity , with which she hath made all the Christian world , all Kinges and Emperours , and that not for one or two ages , but for seauen , on ten , or twelue , or fourteene ages ( according to diuers opinions ) drunke with the same cup of superstition , abomination , idolatry , and antichristianity , and make it a body consisting of persons , whoeuen the best , and purest , are in all partes , and in euery action stayned , impure , sinnefull , vniust and wicked . We doe belieue & confesse it to be the kingdome , the citty , the house of God , the spouse of Christ , the temple of the holy Ghost , the pillar of truth which Christ hath purchased & washed with his precious bloud , made immaculate , incontaminate , and vnspotted , pure , holy , and perfect before him , which no errour of superstition or idolatry can possesse , no power of Pagans , or Heretikes , or Schismatikes or other , wicked Christians can suppresse , no subtilty of heresy , infidelity , or Sathan himselfe can supplant , destroy , or extinguish . Sixhtly , For the sacraments , they from the number of seauen do curtaile fiue , and leaue only two , and from these two they take away from the one , that is baptisme , 1. The effect and vertue , making it only a signe or seale , no cause or instrument of grace , and of no more vertue then the baptisme of S. Iohn Baptist .. 2. They take away all necessity of it , making it not needfull for infants , whom they will haue saued by the parents faith without it . From the other , that is the Eucharist , they take away both the fruit and the substance of it , making it not the reall body and bloud of Christ ; but only a bare signe and remembrance of it . Not any sacrifice offered to God but only a Sacrament signing or sealing grace ; and therby robbe Christ of all adoration by it as a Sacramēt , and of all subiection or acknowledgment of dominion by it as a sacrifice ; and they robbe the Church of all benifit & comfort both by the Sacrament and sacrifice . We do admit for seuerall states of persons , seuerall sorts of benefits , by seauen seuerall kindes of Sacraments ; all as instruments of Gods power , causing grace which assists all sorts of persons in their seuerall states and functions ; and all excell the Sacraments of the old law . For the Sacrament of baptisme , we belieue it to be a meanes of regeneration from originall sinne , by which all sinne and punishment due to sinne both original & actual is fully remitted , and by which all persons are admitted into the mysticall body of Iesus Christ in his holy Church , and made capable of the benefit of the rest of the Sacraments . And for the Sacrament of the Eucharist , we belieue that not only i● conteines the fountaine of Grace ; but also is offered to God as a sacrifice , to apply the vertue of his sacrifice on the crosse , for the remission of our sinnes , by which is giuen much honour to God , and receiued great benefit by Gods Church , & much comfort to the faithfull both liuing and dead . Seauenthly , for Faith , they and their priuate spirit admit many sorts of faith , and in that none at all ; and make as many faiths as there are priuate spirits in particuler persons , and in that destroy all vnity of faith . We admit one holy Catholicall and Apostolicall faith , one in al , and generall to all , who in all are directed by one spirit of Gods Church . They admit a new and new-deuised faith , neuer receiued by any but in some one or other point by condemned hereticks , in whom it was condemned . We receiue an auncient and euer belieued faith , euer receiued and approued by general Coūcells , ancient Fathers , & holy Saints in Gods Church . They reiect the grounds of faith , as Scripture , Traditions , Church , Councells , and Fathers . We admit , belieue and rely vpon them all , as grounds & foundations wheron we ground and build our beliefe . They admit none of the necessary meanes of faith , neither any common reuelation of God , but priuate of their owne spirit ; nor any proposition of Church , but their owne fancies ; nor any credible testimony and motiues of perswasion , to make their beliefe probable ; nor any habit of faith , to assist the vnderstanding in belieuing , nor any pious affection to incline their will to assent , nor any assent by a diuine , supernaturall , and Christian faith ; but by a general and ( as they call it ) a fained and diabolicall faith , by which they belieue the articles of their faith . We do settle , and rely , by our faith ( in respect of the obiect reuealed ) vpon the reuelation of God , the proposition of Church , the motiues of credibility ; and in respect of persons belieuing , vpon the infused gift of faith , the pious inclination of the will by grace , and the infallible assent caused by the former diuine helpes , and grounded vpon the former infallible foundations , as before is at large proued . They admit into the vnity of their faith all hereticks and schismaticks , collecting and scraping from them all raggs and scraps of broken and condemned opinions and heresies , and yet will not admit into the vnity of their inuisible Church any sinners , wicked or reprobate persons , but all and only the elect and predestinate . We reiect from communion of all faith with vs , all condemned hereticks and Schismaticks , and condemne , with the ancient Church , them and all their condemned opinions ; and admit into the externall communion of our Church all those who not cut off by excommunication , agree with vs in vnity of Fayth , that therein their life and manners may be reformed and amended by the example of others by vertue of Sacraments , & preaching of the Church and Pastours of the same . In all which , they and their spirit take from fayth all vnity in it , all groundes of it , all meanes to it , all supernaturall vertue in it , all dignity , all certainty , all necessity , and all vertue and efficacy following vpon it ; and so leaue no more but an human , faigned , and diabolicall fayth , or a shadow of fayth , and no theologicall diuine fayth at all . All which is contrary in our doctrine of fayth . Eightly , for Man , they by their priuate spirit , derogate , and take away from him , 1. All freedome & liberty of wil , naturall to him , as following vpon his being a reasonable soule , and distinguishing him from brute beastes . We attribute that freedome by which he concurs with Gods grace , and his motions to his owne good , and is the authour of his owne euill . 2. They take from him all infusion and habits of grace , which do giue life , beauty , and ability to the soule . All which we admit both of fayth , hope , charity , and all morall vertues to enable and assist vs , in the exercise of all piety . 3. They take from him all inward iustification , adoption , and perfection , and leaue him only an exteriour imputation of the same , supposing God to account & impute him iust , but to leaue him sinnefull and vniust . We admit in man an inward , reall , and true iustification , sanctification , or adoption by grace , which inwardly infused and remayning , doth expell & t●ke away sinne , renue and reuiue our soule , and adopt vs heires to the kingdome of heauen , by which God making vs pure and iust , doth therefore account and repute vs such . 4. They leaue a man after his iustification , impure , vniust , sinnefull , and vncleane in all the workes of his soule , and in euery action of the same , making all the best workes proceeding from him to be sinnefull , and hatefull to God , and deseruing eternall damnation , and so leaue him destitute of any merit or reward . We make him pure , iust , and cleane by grace , which doth giue life to the soule , as the soule doth giue life to the body , and therewith doth impart to it motion , vertue , beauty and power to do good , to please God , and to merit a reward at his handes ; by which man , increasing in grace and merit , doth also increase in perfection and glory . 5. They take from man all benefit , all necessity , all possibility of doing good workes , of keeping Gods law , of abstayning from sinne , and thereby make him sinnefull as well in doing good as euill , as well in refraining as committing euill . We attribute to him ability to auoid all sinnes , possibility , by grace , to keep Gods lawes , as easy and sweet , and to do not only workes of precepts , which are commanded , but also workes of counsell , and supe●erogation , more then are commanded . They take from man all benefit of prayer , as of thinges either needlesse , which otherwise are certaine and sure to be obtayned ; or hopelesse , as impossible to be done or obtayned by vs , and thereby derogate from all vertue , and feruour of prayer and deuotion . We encourage men to prayer by affirming that God hath made our prayer a meane by which he will , and without which he will not dispose many of his benefits to vs , and that therefore he will haue vs pray , that by our prayer we may obtaine . 7. They take from man all feare , care , and labour for his saluation , by their assurance , that only fayth iustifyeth and saueth , & that sayth once had cannot be lost ; and make him idle , carelesse and presumptuous of himselfe by their securing him by speciall fayth , of his iustification & saluation . We do teach him , by our doctrine , with holy Scripture , not to be secure of the propitiation of his sinne , but with feare and trembling to worke his saluation , by good workes , to make his vocation sure , and therfore to liue piously , to walke warily , to watch diligently , and to preuent carefully Sathan and his craft . In all which they robbe man , and leaue him so bare of all benefits either of nature or grace , that they leaue him neither liberty of will , nor ability or concurrence to do good , nor infused grace and guifts to assist him in good , to arme him against sinne , to giue due honour to God , to deserue reward with God , to adopt him the child of God , or to giue him any encouragement in walking the way of God , in treading the path of vertue , & auoiding the allurements to sinne , and the snare of Sathan . All which are contrary in vs , and in our Catholike doctrine . Ninthly , For Sinne , they and their priuate spirit make not only all actions sinnes , but all sinnes mortall , and so all actions mortall sinnes , and all , as well good as bad , deseruing damnation ; and therby in a sort disswade as much from good as from bad actions , and make men desperate of doing good , and prone to doe all bad . Wee make of works some good , and some bad , and of bad some mortall sins , depriuing of grace and glory , some veniall not depriuing of grace and yet diminishing the feruour of grace , and thereby doe perswade men in due sort , to auoid all sinne , chiefly mortall sinne , and encourage them to do good and animate them to increase in grace , goodnesse , and perfection . They make the auoiding of bad or the doing of good works , the keeping of Gods commandements , or the performing his will to be impossible , and therby disharten men from attempting either to keepe his precepts , or to obey his will , or to please him , in any worke or action . We belieue his yoake to be sweet and his burthen easy , and the obeying of his commandements & auoiding of sinne by grace to be possible & facile ; and therby encourage all to labour that they may obey his precepts , and performe his holy will and pleasure . They make no bad works to be imputed to the elect , and no good works to escape punishment in the reprobate : and therby make the one fearlesse & carelesse of any bad , and the other hopelesse and desperate to do any good . We make good works in all to be good , and in the good to be meritorious ; and bad works in al to be bad , and to deserue punishment , and depriue men of Gods fauour , till by repentance they be washed and pardoned ; and therby inuite all to do good , and to auoid bad , and repent them of bad . They hould that no sinne in the faithfull can depriue him of faith , which once had can by no sinne be lost ; and therby lull men in a security of saluation , and allure them to a liberty of sinne , which they belieue cannot depriue them of Gods fauour . We hould that grace once had may be lost , and is lost by mortall sinne ; and therby warne men carefully to keep Gods grace , & diligently to preuent sinne before it be committed , and presently to report after it be cōmitted . Tenthly , For good Works , they & their priuate spirit hould , that no good works are good , iust , perfect , or meritorious , yea that none are necessary or possible , but that al are sinfull ; and therby make it bootlesse and needlesse to striue to do them . We hould , that good works are not only good , but may be perfect & meritorious of an eternal reward , wherby we animate all to the working of them . They hould that cōtinency & virginity is no vertue , but a suggestion of Sathan , wicked , diabolicall , and a rebellion against God in religious persons ; and that matrimony is a state more noble perfect , & spirituall then it , and therby induce all to marry . We hould that single life , chastity , and continency is a vertue more perfect , noble , and holy then marriage , and therfore is preferred by God , as more spirituall , before marriage , and more to be esteemed by men is more honourable . They hold that fasting and punishing the body by mortification , watching , & discipline is no vertue , is needlesse , and no part of pennance or satisfaction , but a killing of ones selfe ; wherby they withdraw men from austerity & strictnesse of life . We hould that it being vsed discreetly and in measure , is good and pious , as commended in the old and new Testament , and practised by all Saints and holy persons ; & therby animate all to it . They hould that the forsaking the world & liuing in a retired Religious life , is a meere human tradition , and an vnprofitable will-worship of God. We hould that it is a meane of perfection , & an imitation of an Apostolicall life ; and therfore cōmendable in them who can vndertake it . They hould that vowes of perfection are a curiosity , presumption , pride , contrary to God , & not to be vsed by Christians . We hould that to vow obedience , pouerty , and chastity are gratefull to God , & great helps and meanes to perfection , as counsailed in holy scripture , and laudable in all the professours of them . In all which as they take from all sinne all punishment due to it , all offence to God inseparable from it , and all malice annexed to it ; as they take away all difference by which one sin is damnable rather then another , & all feare which may bridle any from committing sinne ( in which they make men fearlesse of sinne , and carelesse to commit it : ) so they take from good works in generall all goodnesse and participation of good , al iustice and vprightnesse before God , all valew and dignity by grace , all benefit and grace of merit , all hope or comfort of pleasing God , all necessity of doing them , and all possibility of doing them without offence of God. And from good works in particuler they take away also from all vowes their obligation to be performed from chastity all possibility to be obserued , from fasting , pennance , and mortification all necessity to be vsed , from prayer and deuotion all meanes to obteine that they aske , and from charity all efficacy to iustify before God , and from all and euery one in their proper kind all power and necessity to do them , all courage and alacrity to do them hopefully . Al which is contrary in vs , & our Catholicke doctrine . Eleauenthly , From the glory of heauen , & the ioyes of it , they and their priuate spirit do derogate , in affirming . 1. That neither any reward is iustly giuen in heauen for any good done vpon earth , nor any crowne of iustice in that life for suffering of iniustice in this , nor any lawrell of Martyrs , Confessours , or Virgins there , for the confessing the name of Christ . 2. That in heauen are no differences of mansions , or diuersity of degres of glory , and that all are like and al equall in glory and beatitude euen to the Apostles , and the mother of God ; wherby they remoue a strong motiue to draw men to labour for perfection in this life , that they may attaine to a higher place of glory in the next . We , and our Catholicke doctrine doe belieue , 1. That God doth iustly reward in heauen all our good deedes done on earth , and doth giue crownes of glory for our sufferings for him , and bestow variety of glorious lawrels by gifts of accidentall beatitude for our glorifying him in any eminent manner of perfection . 2. That as starres , so Saints do differ in clarity hauing their seuerall mansions , places , and glory , according to their degrees of grace and merit : wherby al are encouraged to aime at perfection , in hope of so high a remuneration . For hell , and the place and paines of it , they and their priuate spirit take from it , 1. The difference of places , as Limbus patrum , puerorum , & Purgatory . 2. The materiall and reall fier of hell ; denying , as many do , (a) , all true fier , and admitting only a metaphoricall and imaginary fier . 3. The suffering of soules in it before the day of iudgment . 4. The corporall place or prison of hell , admitting only a torment of cōscience before the day of iudgment (b) . 5. The lawfulnesse to auoid sinne for feare of hell , which they make a sinne and vnlawfull ; by all which they make the paines and torments of hell to be lesse feared , and sinnes for the feare of them lesse auoided . We and our Catholicke doctrine do hould , 1. The difference of places according to different estates and deserts , as the Limbus puetorū , for children dying without Baptisme , the Limbus patrum for the faithfull dying before Christ , and Purgatory for faithful dying without full satisfaction . 2. The locall place , and the materiall fier , and the reall suffering of the present paines of hell by the soules of the damned , and withall , that it is a worke good , though not the best , to auoid sinne for feare of hell . In all which we extoll the iustice of (c) God mixt with mercy , in punishing al sorts according to their deserts , and deterre men from liberty of sinne for feare of punishment in hell . And thus we haue in this second part confuted this priuat spirit , which in the former part we proued to be the sole and whole ground of the Protestant faith and saluation ; 1. By authorities of holy Scripture . 2. By testimony of auncient Fathers . 3. By reasons drawne from the difficulty of discerning spirits . 4. By reasons drawne from a right interpreter of Holy Scripture . 5. By reasons drawne from an infallible iudge of controuersies of fayth . 6. By reasons drawne from the nature and certainty of fayth . 7. By Circular absurdities to which this spirit leadeth . 8. By Doctrinall absurdities which follow vpon it , and the doctrine of it against Fayth , and the Creed ; against Hope and the Pater noster ; and against good life , morall vertues , the ten Commandements , and all laws of God ▪ Church , or Cōmon-wealth . In which also we haue made plaine how this their doctrine , groūded vpon this their priuate spirit , doth derogate from God , and the Blessed Trinity , whome it makes the authour of all sinne , a sinner , lyer , dissembler , and tyrant , the only sinner , and a greater sinner then either the Diuell or man ; doth derogate from Iesus Christ , and his birth , life , passion , and resurrection , whome it dishonours in making him neither Phisitiā , Lawyer , Iudge , Priest , or perfect Redeemer , or Sauiour , but one ignorant , impotent , sinnefull , and damned ; doth derogate from the Church of God triumphant in heauen , which it dishonours in taking from it knowledge & charity in Saints , and Angels , and honour and reuerence to them ; and from the Church militant on earth , which it dishonours , in taking from it all authority , visibility , vniuersality , perpetuity , or extancy , and being vpon earth so many ages . How it derogates from fayth , which it dishonours in taking from it all groundes , whereon it is to be builded , & all meanes wherby it is to be attained , and in making it contradictory , rash , presumptuous , sinnefull , and preiudicious to all Hope and Charity . How it derogates from man , whome it disables & depriues of all Free-will , of all inherent grace , of all good life and workes , of all possibility to obey Gods Commandements , to abstaine from sinne , to merit any reward . How it derogates from all morall vertues and good life , from which by many principles it doth withdraw , & withall doth draw to all vice , and wickednesse , doth giue the reines to all Epicurean liberty and loosenesse . In all which the spirit of our Catholike Church , and the doctrine of it is shewed to be contrary , and to giue du● honour to God , to Christ , to his Saints , Angels , Church , to Fayth , Sacraments , and the rest . And to be a meanes to encourage all Christians to the practise of all vertue and perfection , and to auoid all sinne and wickednes . All this we haue carefully & painefully laboured to performe in this second Part of the treatise of that pri-Spirit . THE PROTESTANTS OBIECTIONS , and proofes , taken out of Scripture , for the defence of their priuate Spirits authority to inrerpret Scripture , and iudge of Controuersies ; proposed and answered . CHAP. X. Of certaine obseruations , profitable for the solution of Obiections . SECT . 1. HITHERTO we haue battered , & that I hope sufficiently , the maine fabricke of this imaginary edifice of the Protestant priuate spirit . It remaines only for this second Part , that we raze , & demolish the foundation vpon which this their conceit of their priuate spirits authority is built and erected , that is , that we solue the reasons , or rather obiections , taken out of holy Scripture , vpon which they ground their conceit ▪ for which we may note , that as our Catholike doctrine doth not deny either the being or permanency of the Spirit of God in euery faythfull both person and Doctour ( for all faythfull by the spirit of God haue faith ) or the effect and operation of the same , in assisting thē in the finding out of the true sense of holy scripture ( for neither are the faithful prohibited from all reading , nor the learned debarred from all interpreting of holy scripture ; ) so there is a great difference betweene the effect and operation of this spirit in the Protestant and Catholicke , as well simple as learned , as both do chalenge it , and rely vpon it . For as ( for better illustration , we may obserue in a naturall body , and the spirit or soule of man , in which comparison we imitate . S. Paul ) the soule or spirit doth giue information , or operation to the whole body , and euery part thereof , yet ▪ so that euery member hath not euery operation , all members haue not one action ; but the head one , as to iudge ; the handes another , as to worke ; the feet another , as to walke ; and the mouth is to receaue , the belly to containe , the stomake to disgest the meat ; and so it is proper to the eye to see , to the eare to heare , and to neither to discourse and reason , which belongs only to the braine : so in the spirituall body of the Church , and the faythfull members of it , the spirit of God doth assist all , and euery one in particuler , as well the meanest as the greatest , as well the most simple as the most learned , VVho are many , but one body in Christ : yet so , that as euery member is different one from another , so the operation of euery one is different and not the same , but as some are Lay , some Ecclesiasticall persons , some secular , some Religious , some simple , some learned , some common people , some Pastours and Prelates , so to euery one of vs is giuen grace according to the measure of the donation of Christ ; according to the measure of fayth , and to euery one for his profit , that hauing all gifts according to the grace which is giuen to vs , euery one may remaine in the vocation , in which he is called , wherupon all are not Prophets , all are not Doctours , all are not Euangelists : All are not Iudges of faith , and interpreters of holy Scripture , though all haue the spirit , but God , diuiding to euery one as he will , giues to some the spirit to heare and obey , to others to direct and command , to some the spirit to labour and worke by practicall offices , to others to contemplate and study by speculatiue functions , yet to all so , and in that manner , that as euery member hath need of another , for the eye cannot say to the hand , I stand in no need of thy helpe : so euery one member hath his gift , and the vse and operation of it , for the benefite of the whole body , with d●pendance and subordination to the whole , and according to the order and proportion of the whole , that as the necessity and conueniency of the whole body doth require ; so the operation and function of the part is accommodated and applied : and so all the parts and members of the Church , being by one spirit combined and vnited togeather as members of one body , and in vnity of one hody , do euery one belieue as they are directed by the head , and do proceed in all with subordination to the head , and worke in all for the vse and benefit of the whole , suffer for the defence of the whole ; and so by a communion both with themselues , and with the whole do all labour for the whole , conserue the whole , and keep still an vnion and communion with the whole , and are directed according to the faith , the rule , the reason , and the Iudgment or direction of the whole body or Church of Christ . As long therfore as euery member , and his spirit hath this direction , subordination , and vnion with the whole body of the Church and the spirit of it ; so long doth it prooced in order and vnity , and so farre it is agreable to the spirit of God directing his holy spouse the Church : but when this spirit doth beginne to be singular of it selfe , to deuise a new doctrine , to teach otherwise then the rule of faith hath prescribed , or to assume the authority of a new maister ; When it deuides it selfe from the spirit of Gods Church , and doth oppose it selfe against it , or extoll it selfe aboue it : when it will not be subiect and subordinate to it but doth erect a Cathedra of authority of its own , or an opinion of doctrine of its owne against it ; then it is an euident signe that it is not a spirit of vnity and concord , but of dissention and diuision , & so not an inspiration of God to be imbraced , but a suggestion of sathan to be reiected . Out of which rule may be obserued the difference betweene a Catholicke and a Protestant spirit in expounding of scripture , and withall , the weaknesse or rather impertinency of the Protestant obiections for their manner of interpretation of scripture by this their spirit . For , first we distinguish betweene them , who without offence lawfully may expound , and who by authority haue warrant infallibly to expound holy scripture . Of the former sorts are all faythfull Christians who hauing vnderstanding sufficient and a pious intention , do with humility beginne , and according to the rule of fayth proceed in seeking out the right sense of Scripture , and so none , who are thus able , and thus proceed , are barred from either reading , or expounding to their own cōfort the Holy Scripture , as our aduersaries do falsely calumniate vs. Of the later sort , are the Pastours and Prelates of the Church , who hauing lawfull ordination and succession , and continuing in vnity and subordination , do either deliuer the sense of Scripture , as it is taught by holy Church , or els confirme and explicate any doctrine of fayth when they are collected in a generall Councell . And these , thus vsing the lawfull meanes , and obseruing the vsuall rule of fayth , haue authenticall warrant , by the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost , that they cannot erre in deliuering any sense of scripture as a ground of fayth and beliefe . The Protestants doe giue not only liberty , but also authority to all , not only Pastours and Prelates , but also Artificers and common people , as well vnlearned as learned , to frame to themselues such a firme assent to this or that ( seeming to them infallibly true ) sense of holy Scripture ( euery one according to his owne preiudicate conceit or priuate spirit ) that thereupon they dare aduenture the certainty of their Fayth , and the hope of their saluation . Secondly , we make a difference betweene a sense of scripture produced in the Schooles , to proue or confirme a schoole question , & a sense declared ex Cathedra to ground an article of faith , or betweene a preachers conceit deliuered in the pulpit to exhort to good life and manners , and a doctrine proposed by the Church , as reuealed by God , & necessary to be belieued . In which for the former , we giue a liberty to any preacher to frame out of his own cōceit any sense which ( not being opposit to true fayth ) may moue the auditory to piety & good life : but for the later we confine the ranging liberty of the wit , and inuention , euen of the Doctours & Pastours in Gods Church , & prescribe , as fayth Vincentius Lyrin . that ▪ They teach that which is deliuered to them , not which is inuented by them ; that which they receaued , not that which they deuised ; that which is of publike tradition ; not of priuate vsurpation ; that of which they are not authours , but keepers ; not beginners , but followers ; not leaders , but lead . In which cunningly caruing , faythfully placing , & wisely adorning , like another Beezeler , the pretious pearles of diuine fayth , by adding splendour , grace , and beauty , they are to illustrate more clearely that which was belieued more obscurely ; and to deliuer to posterity more fully explicated , that which by their forefathers , being not vnderstood , was with reuerence belieued . Alwayes so teaching that which they learned , that they teach after a new māner , but not a new doctrine . That is , as afterward he sayth ; That they interprete the diuine Canon according to the tradition of the whole Church , and the rules of Catholike fayth , that is , Vniuersality , Antiquity , and Consent ; and if any part do rebell against the whole , or nouelty oppose antiquity , or if dissent of a few controule the consent of all , or the most , then m●st they preferre the integrity of the whole before the corruption of a part , the veneration of antiquity before prophanation of nouelty , and the generality of a Councell , before the temerity of a few . The Protestants giue a liberty , by the priuiledge of their spirit , to euery not only Preacher , but priuate person , to expound the most difficult and important places of Scripture , namely of the Apocalyps , & S. Pauls Epistles , not only for the schooles in scholasticall questions , or in pulpit for exhortations to good life , but in deepest articles , & greatest controuersies of Fayth , euery one as his spirit shall suggest , and thereupon they direct them to ground their fayth & the saluation of their owne soule , and of many others who rely vpon them . Whereby , as sayth Vincentius Lyrinensis , They make it a solemne practise to delight in prophane nouelties , and to loath all decrees of antiquity ; and by making ostentation of a false opinion of knowledge , do make shipwracke of all fayth . Thirdly , the Spirit of a Catholike will not presume to expound any text of scripture contrary to that sense which either the rule of fayth , or the practise of the Church , or the decree of a Councell , or the consent of Fathers hath receaued as true and authenticall , but in al will receaue & follow that which is determined and decreed in thē . The Protestāt spirit will censure , reiect , and condemne any sense , though neuer so generally receaued , or strongly confirmed by all authority of any Church , Tradition , Councell , or Fathers , and deuise a new one of his owne inuention , and therby wil build a new fayth and religion , which it perswades the followers to be the only way to truth and life . Fourthly , the spirit of euery Catholike will deliuer his owne interpretation only as probable , and submit himselfe to the censure and iudgment of the spirit of the Catholike Church , captiuating with S. Paul , his vnderstanding to obedience of Fayth . The Protestants spirit will auouch their interpretation as certaine , infallible , and of Fayth ; and all with that obstinacy , that no reason or authority shall remoue them from it , or alter their opinion in it . Fifthly , the spirit of a Catholike , being setled & groūded in a certainty of Catholike and Apostolike fayth , will expound Scripture according to the rule of the same , for the illustration or confirmation of the same fayth , as it is generally receaued : but will not ground himselfe ; and his beliefe in his owne exposition , nor perswade and introduce a new beliefe vpon the same . The Protestant spirit will ground it selfe , and his first beliefe , vpon his owne exposition , and by the same perswade others to forsake their old fayth , and to follow a new , and so change the ancient religion , for a nouell opinion grounded vpon a new exposition of any text of Scripture , framed according to the fantasy of the priuate spirits conceit . And thus though Catholike Doctours and Pastours haue the spirit of God to expound holy Scripture , as much and more then the Protestants haue , yet they vse & apply it either to schoole-questions and manners only , or as probable and credible only ; or if to doctrine of fayth , they apply it , either to illustrate and confirme their fayth , or if to ground and settle it , they square it according to the rule of fayth , the practise of the ancient Church , the decrees of Councells , and the consent of Fathers . All which the Protestant Doctour , in the setling and resolution of his Fayth , reiects , and relies his fayth vpon an exposition of scripture grounded only vpon his owne proper and priuate conceit . The obiections answered . SECT II. THE Obiections which the Protestants Luther , Melancthon , Brentius , Magdeburgenses , Musculus , Whitaker , & other Protestants do vsually make for the power and authority of this their priuate spirit to expound scripture , are drawne some from , those places which affirme the interpretation of scripture to be a guift , & that gratis , and freely bestowed : others from those places which require reading , prayer or meditation in euery one , for the obtaining of this gift . Of the first sort are these and such like . First , they obiect those places where the guift of (a) Prophecy , or interpretation of speaches , is attributed to the operation of one and the same spirit , which deuides to euery one as it will. Where also Prophecy , that is , interpretation of scripture & preaching , is giuen to the Faythfull if all doe prophecy . Euery (b) one hath a Psalme , hath a reuelation hath a tongue , hath an interpretation . Let Prophets two or three speake , and the rest iudge . You may all , one by one prophecy , that all may learne , and all may be exhorted . Therefore euery one who hath the spirit and grace of God , hath the gift to interprete scripture . To which is answered 1. That in all those places S. Paul speakes of guifts extraordinary , and gratis giuen for the tyme , such as are the guift of languages , the curing of diseases , foretelling thinges to come , and interpreting of obscure reuelations , or mysteries , which were bestowed only for a tyme , and as personall vpon the Apostles ; and first belieuers , with whome they decayed and ceased : not of any guifts ordinary and generall which are to be permanent in the Church , and common to all faythfull . Therfore these places can make nothing for euery faythfull persons power and ability to expound scripture , & that so certainly , that vpon it he may build his fayth and saluation . 2. These guifts are not giuen any one of them to all persons , nor yet all of them to any one person , and that for all ends & vses , for the guifts are giuen according to the measure of fayth , according to the measure of the donation of Christ , according to the rule of Fayth . Therefore all these guifts are not alike giuen to euery one , but so distributed that some are Apostles some Prophets , some Euangelists , others Pastours and Doctours : and not all Apostles , not all Prophets , not all Doctours , not all workers of miracles , speakers with tongues , or interpreters of speaches . Therfore all and euery faythfull person hath not the guift of interpreting and expounding scripture , but those vpon whome by speciall guift or function it is bestowed . 3. They who haue this guift , and the spirit of it , haue it as subordinate , and a part or parcell of the spirit of Gods Church , by which it is to be directed , not as opposite , singular , or independent of the same , or of any one but themselues ; for so was the spirit of the Prophets subiect to the Prophets . That is , as S. Chrysostome expounds it , that both the Prophet and his guift was subiect to the colledge or company of the Prophets , which is , the whole Church ; and the spirit of euery member is applyed to the vse and benefit of the whole body . What spirit therefore is priuate and proper as of it selfe , and either diuided from the head , or not subordinate to the whole body of the Catholike Church , and applyed to the vse and benefit of the same , that spirit is not the spirit of vnity and peace , but of diuision and dissention , and so not the spirit of God ( who is not the God of dissention but of peace ) but of Sathan , whose kingdome thus by spirits deuided will be made desolate and such is the spirit of all Protestants , as is before fully declared . According to which groundes are answered and explicated in particular all places which are obiected for this spirits authority . As first , That one and the same spirit doth work all these , deuiding to euery one as it will , is spoken first of reuelations and guifts extraordinary , called gratis giuen , not ordinary and permanent in the Church of God , such as is this guift of interpretation of Scripture . Also it is spoken of persons priuate , & the vulgar sort , vpon whome this extraordinary guift is sometymes bestowed , not of the Councels and Prelats to whose function , as proper to it , this guift or promise is annexed . And if any priuate persons haue had this extraordinary guift , as Amos a sheepheard , Debora a woman , who in the old Testament were Prophets , and Origen who not yet a Priest was a Doctour and interpreter of Scripture , they were priuiledges extraordinary , and a few only , which make not a generall rule for all , and what they taught , they taught not as Maisters , who did either arrogate to themselues any proper authority , or did teach any new doctrine , or did refuse any subordination to Superiour authority : but did it either to the consolation of themselues , or to the instruction and confirmation of others , and all according to the rule of fayth and common receaued doctrine . In which manner any , though not yet called , and hauing a talent sufficient may ( as before ) presume to interprete holy Scripture , and deliuer the sense of it to others , though he haue not yet the grace of holy Orders , nor Pastorall , or Episcopall function . Secondly , That of Rom. 1.26 . hauing gifts according to grace which is giuen to vs differēt , whether prophecy according to the reason of faith , or ministery in administring , is not so meant that euery one , according to the proportion of his faith , hath the gift of prophecy or interpetation of scripture : but that euery one who hath these gifts should exercise them according to the talent and guifts bestowed on them , not presuming to be wiser then he ought , but to be wise vnto sobriety , and according to the measure of the donation of Christ , and not to intermedle in anothers office and function ; as ( to instance in the Apostles example ) he who hath the ministery proper to Deacons and inferior orders , which was to distribute almes and to take care of the poore , is not to medle in the function of Bishops , which is to preach and instruct in doctrine of faith & to conferre orders , but euery one , according to the reason or measure of faith , that is , not of his infused and supernaturall faith by which he is disposed to grace , but of his gift of vnderstanding of scripture , and of high mysteries of beliefe , is to proceed in his function , & to vse that talent bestowed vpon them to the profit of the whole body . Which gift also , as it is not a property inseparably annexed to grace , ( for many who are in state of grace are destitut of this guift , & others who are not so holy , but for life wicked , often haue the benefit of it ) so it is not vsually bestowed vpon the vulgar and common sort of people , but is proper to Ecclesiasticall persons , of whose function are two sorts , that is Episcopall , to preach and explicate holy scripture ; and Diaconicall , to minister in externall function of giuing almes , seruing the poore , and the rest , as is by the Apostle heere expressed , in which euery one remaining in his vocation in which he is called , is to exercise his owne office and function . For , as saith S. Hierome , It is not for euery one to try gold , and expound holy scriptures , to tast wine , and vnderstand the Prophets and Apostles . And , as saith S. Paul , All are not Prophets nor Apostles , nor Doctours : but some Prophets , some Apostles , some Euangelists , some Doctours , till the consummatiō of the world . And so some , to whom by their function it belongs , not all faithfull of what sort soeuer , haue this gift of interpretation of scripture bestowed on them . Thirdly , those places of 1. Cor. 14. are vnderstood , as the whole Chapter is , neither of any ordinary and infallible interpretation of holy scripture , nor yet of any solemne and publicke office , sacrifice , or benediction of the Masse , much lesse of any guift ordinary & common to al & euery faithfull person , either for vnderstanding of scripture , or for hearing the solemne seruice of the Church ( as all expositours both ancient and moderne do confesse , & the very words of the text do conuince ) but of priuate praiers and praisings of God in Hymnes , Canticles , and spirituall songes , and of priuate guifts of speaking with tongues , and prophecying , or interpreting of holy scripture , and exhorting for mutuall consolation and instruction one another . All which as they were guifts gratis giuen , rare , extraordinary , singular , yea and miraculously bestowed vpon seuerall persons of sundry sorts in the particuler congregations and assemblies of the faithfull in those times , and only for that present time , and not to continue in the Church ; so an order and methode is here prescribed in the vse and exercise of these guifts by the Apostle , that al may be done honestly and according to order , without confusion , and to edification , specially of Infidels not yet conuerted , to whom cōming to heare the exercises of the Christians , these were signes and testimonies of the spirit of God among Christians . Whereupon it is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that , is thy proper , and priuate benediction : and the Prophets did speake somtimes in languages , which neither themselues nor the auditours vnderstood , as v. 13. and 14. is expressed , where the speakers are willed to pray that they themselues may vnderstand , and the prophecying or interpreting of high misteries is preferred before the vnknowne & not vnderstood languages . For which we may note out of the auncient writers Iustine Martyr , and Tertullian who liued in the age of the Apostles , that the times then so requiring it at the first begining of the Church , this order was obserued in the meetings of Christiās which were then , for the place , priuate , as in time of persecution ; that is , 1. The Psalmes were sung 2. The Prophecies and scripture was read . 3. The sermon was made by the Bishop . 4. The sacrifice ( which consisted in the oblation , consecration , communion , Canon , & some short prayers ) was offered . 5. The Communion was giuen to all . 6. Some did sing Hymnes and Psalmes of praise and thankesgiuing , others did Prophecy & speake of high mysteries , and shew their guift of languages . 7. Others more spirituall , did , as they were inspired by speciall guifts , interpret and expound scripture , which was vsed euen by women . And lastly , they concluded all with an Agape , or banquet of charity , and hymnes of praising God , & so brak vp the assembly . Which practise as it was only for that time , and in time when these extraordinary and miraculous guifts were bestowed ( for it was not obserued in the future & setled times of the Church ) so with the cessation or ending of those guifts , the order and manner partly ceased , partly was changed into a set order & forme for succeding times , which conformably is obserued by our present Church in practise , as may be seene in Cornelius vpon the 1. Cor. 14. Nothing therfore in this Chapter is intended , or spoken , of the generall and ordinary power and authority of all the common people , and euery persons spirit to interprete scripture , and iudge of Controuersies of faith . 2. It is answered , that the Prophecy , heere spoken of , is not an interpretation of Scriptures , but of languages , by which that which was spoken in strange languages to the admiration of Infidels ( for whose conuersion the guift of tongues was giuē ; ) was interpreted by this guift of prophecy in others , for the instruction of the faithfull ( for whom this Prophecy was giuen ) for languages are a signe to Infidels , but Prophecy to the faithfull (a) . When therfore the guift of tongues ceased , this guift of Prophecy also ceased , as being giuen only for the interpreting of tongues . 3. The matter and subiect both spoken by tongue , and interpreted by Prophecy , was not doctrine , or mysteries of faith , but either exhortation to piety for edification and consolation (b) ; or of things secret , as future euents , or vnknowne faults , or facts done , by which the secrets of the heart of the infidell or idiot was made knowne , and he conuinced and iudged of all (c) : therfore it makes nothing for doctrine of faith , and interpretation of scripture . 4. This manner of Prophecy howsoeuer , and of whatsoeuer it was , it was not independent , and of it selfe free to interprete what , and how it will : but so , that the rest doe iudge (d) ; & that the spirits of Prophets be subiect to the Prophets (e) . And so euery priuate spirit must be subiect to the iudgment of the Church , and the Churches spirit . Fourthly , they obiect those places where it is said , that All thy Childrē are taught of our Lord (f) ; Al shal be docible of God (g) ; Your selues haue learned of God (i) ; I will giue my law in their bowels and I will write it in their heart (k) ; All shall know me from the least to the greatest (l) ; If any will do his will who sent me , he shall vnderstand of the doctrine whether it be of God (m) ; My sheepe do heare my voice & do follow me (n) ; Yow haue no need that any do teach you , but as his vnction teacheth you of all things (o) . All these places , I say do not either ioyntly altogether , or particularly any one , mention any priuiledge that euery one hath , by the instinct of his owne priuate spirit , to interprete holy scripture , to decide deep mysteries of faith , and to iudge of all controuersies of diuinity , which is the point auerred by the Protestants , denied by vs , and in controuersy betweene both . 2. In them is affirmed only that God will giue his inward guift of grace to all sort of persons , so sufficiently that they may know him , his truth , and the true way to saluation , and by the same may obserue his Commandements , and come to be saued : ( In which yet is neither excluded , but rather supposed as precedent , and an exteriour proponent cause , the ordinary meanes of preaching by Pastours , and of instruction by them and subordination to them : ) But yet is not giuen to any one any power or priuiledge to preferre his owne spirit before the spirit of the whole Church , or to censure the doctrine which is once adiudged by the same ; which among the rest this Protestant priuate spirit doth assume to it selfe . For which we may note , that it is one thing to haue faith sufficient for saluation ; another to haue the guift of infallible interpretatiō of scripture . The former is a guift general to all the faythful , & though they be as yet (a) little ones who only sucke milke ; though they be as yet (b) carnal not spiritual ; thogh they be (c) ignorant of many things ; and haue many (d) thinges wanting ( to the perfection ) of their faith : Yet they be sealed with (e) the spirit of the promise , (f) the pledge of our inheritance , (g) haue the spirit of God dwelling in them , and so haue the literall verity of all the former places verifyed in them . The later is a guift peculiar and proper only to them , who by place and function are (h) spirituall and perfect , haue their (i) senses exercised to the discerning of good and euill . And haue the guift of (k) discerning of spirits , and interpreting of speaches . And these are they who as tryers and discerners of fayth , interpreters of Scripture , and haue the guift and power infallible to direct others in the doctrine of fayth , who are ex officio the Pastours and Prelates of Gods Church , and are (l) as Bishops to rule ; (m) to feed the flocke of Christ ; (n) to exhort and reproue with all authority ; to (o) controule & rebuke them sharply , that they may be sound in the fayth ; and (p) to denounce to certaine , not to teach otherwise . And all by that power which God hath giuen them to (q) edification , and to reuenge all disobedience , and to bring into captiuity al vnderstanding to the obedience of Christ . This is the office of the Prelates and Bishops of Gods Church . 3. This inward guift of grace or vnction of the Holy Ghost is only an efficient , internall , and cooperant cause , and so necessary , to mooue the vnderstanding and will to assent to that which , as certaine , is proposed : but this iudge or interpreter must be an exteriour proponent cause , which must deliuer to vs this sense as certaine , which being proposed grace doth enable vs to belieue . Now all these and such like places are meant of the interiour guift of grace , which is necessary , but not ordinarily sufficient without a precedent , exteriour , and proponent cause , which is this infallible Interpreter of holy Scripture , in Pastours of the Church . Fifthly , to those places where it is commanded , not to belieue euery spirit , but to proue the spirits if they be of God (a) ; and to proue all thinges , and hould that which is good (b) , is answered . 1. That all , and euery person of the body of the holy Church is not directed to make this tryall , but only the chiefe , that is the Pastours , and Prelates , as when a man is willed to discerne and see , not euery member and part of the body is directed so to do , but the chiefe members , as the head , which is to iudge , and the eye to see , to whose function it is proper and belonges , or as when an Vniuersity is directed to examine and iudge of such a booke , and doctrine , not euery student , but the chiefe Doctours of that faculty are so directed and willed ; so that not euery person and vnlearned party in the Church is to make this tryall of spirits , but only Pastours and Prelates , to whose function it is peculiar and proper to iudge and decide all such like questions and doubts . 2. This tryall and iudgment is to be made , not of questions & doctrine already decided and determined by the authority of the Church , but of such as are yet doubtfull and vndecided . For that which is once determined by the generall consent of the Church or Councell , is not againe to be examined and iudged by any priuate mans spirit ; for so the Decrees of Coūcells were both vaine & endlesse : that therfore is to be tryed which is not before both tryed and iudged , and that by those who haue both ability and authority to do it ; which makes nothing for this priuate spirit , which will both try what is before by any Councell iudged , and will by euery simple & vnlearned person try , and iudge it . Sixthly , to that of 1. Cor. 2.15 . The spirituall man iudgeth all thinges , and himselfe is iudged of none : It is answered , that S. Paul to confound the Corinthians , who standing vpon their humane & worldly wisedome , contemned his vnlearned manner of instruction , affirmes that they being men sensuall can iudge only of sensuall thinges : but he being spirituall and perfect in diuine wisedome can iudge both of things sensuall and spirituall ; and so a spirituall man iudges of all thinges in generall , that is , both of spirituall thinges which are diuine and mysticall , and also of humane thinges which are terrene and sensuall ; but a sensuall man iudges only of temporall thinges of the world , and not of spirituall which are of God. The reason therfore is de generibus singulorum , that a spirituall man iudges of all sortes of thinges both diuine & humane , but not de singulis generunt , that he can iudge in particuler of all kindes or spirituall thinges , as when a man is sayd to eat of all thinges , it is meant that he eates of all kinds of meat , both flesh and fish , not of euery particuler peece of both . 2. Euery spirituall man doth iudge spirituall thinges , but according to such rules and directions as euery thing is to be iudged , that is , thinges manifest and certaine he iudges according as they are iudged already and determined , thinges vncertaine and obscure , according to the rule of Fayth , and the authority and testimony of Councels , Fathers , Tradition , and Church , as before is explicated ; not according to his owne selfe-seeming spirit and conceit , in which his spirit is still subordinate to the spirit of Gods Church , and directed by it . 3. Because euery faithfull Christian is not alwayes spirituall , that is , perfect , hauing his senses exercised in the discerning of good and euill ; for some haue need of milke and not of strong meat , and euery one that is partaker of milke it vnskilful of the word of iustice , for he is a child (a) . Therfore this iudgment , especially of misteries of faith , is not for al imperfect , though faithfull Christians ; but only for persons spirituall , that is , perfect , and vnderstanding in spiritual learning & wisdome . And so it makes nothing for the priuate spirits iudgment in euery faithfull Christian . And because spirituall persons haue not euery one a spirit for all spirituall things , for to one certes by the spirit is giuen the word of wisdome , and to another the word of knowledge according to the same spirit , and to another Prophecy , to another discerning of spirits , all which one and the same spirit worketh . And (b) all are not Apostles , Prophets , or Doctours , nor worke miracles , do cures , or speake with tongues (c) And because some mēbers are more , some lesse honourable , or base , some more weake , some lesse ; and some haue offices & functions , some more honourable , some lesse , some to see and direct , others to walke and be directed , (d) euery one according to his nature & function , though one and the same spirit worke all these therefore all persons who are spirituall haue not all spirituall offices & guifts , but some the guifts of prayer , and contemplation , some of mortification and humiliation , some of obedience & patience , others of discerning of spirits , and others ( to whō by their office it belongs ) of iudging of faith and scripture , as before . And therefore though spirituall men iudge all things spirituall and temporall , yet euery spirituall man doth not infallibly iudge and discerne euery spirituall thing , no more then euery faculty of the soule as sensitiue , vegitatiue or rationall , doth performe all and euery function of feeling growing , and reasoning ; but euery one his proper function . And as the function of the eye is only to see , and of the hāds to worke , and the feet to walke , so they who will giue the function of seeing and iudging of the sense of scripture and misteries of faith to euery person in the body of the Church , do as much as if one should attribut the function of seeing to the handes and feet : for as in a body naturall , so in the body mysticall , ( which is S. Pauls comparison ) some are principal members , some inferiour , so euery one hath his proper function in the Church , as the bishops are eyes to discerne truth , the princes are armes to defend the body , and the people are the rest of the parts of the body to be directed . The function therfore of one is not to be attributed to another , but euery one in his place and degree is to exercise his owne function in his proper office and worke . By which is apparent , that those and such like places of scripture do make nothing for the authority and power of this priuate spirit in euery one to discerne and iudge of all places of scripture and misteries of faith ; except the Protestants , as they attribut to euery spirit power to do euery thing , so they will out of euery place of scripture inferre any thing , & so ex quolibet proue quodlibet , as their spirit doth direct and teach them . And thus much of the first manner of arguments or obiections drawne from the guift of the spirit of God and grace , impertinently applied to proue this their priuate spirits authority . Other obiections answered SECT . III. THE second manner of obiections are drawne from the meanes which are prescribed in scripture for the due & right Vnderstanding of holy scripture , which are prayer , meditation , and diligent seeking & enquiring out the true sense of scripture out of scripture , and such like ; by which the Protestants seeme to backe much their spirits proceeding , for so doth Caluin professe to imbrace that sense of scripture which by meditation annexed , the spirit of God doth suggest ; by vertue of which spirit he contemns all , what any humane wisdone can oppose . For which they obiect that Dauid did meditat day & night in the law of God. That Timothy did from his Childhood learne the Scripture which might instruct him (a) . That S. Peter did will them to attend and looke into the propheticall word as to a candell shining in a darke place (b) . That S. Paul affirmes that faith & faithful persons are built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles (c) . That they of Beroea did search the scriptures , if the things were so (d) as Paul did teach . And that Christ did will the Iewes to (e) search the Scriptures . For all which we are to obserue , 1. That these meanes are good and profitable ; but not sufficient of themselues for a certaine and infallible exposition of scripture : for besides them is required the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost for an infallible sense of scripture to be relied vpō . 2. That these meanes are to be vsed by those who haue power and authority to expound scripture ; to whom , though they be necessary yet are they not of themselues either sufficient , or infallible either to euery priuate person , or to others without other helpes and assistances of the holy Ghost . 3. That priuate persons , when they vse & apply duely these meanes , may giue a probable exposition of scripture , either for their owne consolation and confirmation in faith , or for the edification and aduise of others : but cannot rely vpon it either as a sole and solid foundation of their beliefe , or as a generall rule for the true and certaine exposition of all the difficult and abstruse places of scripture . For , as S. Augustine , saith , such is the profundity of holy scriptures , that though his wit was better , his leasure more , and his diligence greater , yet he might from his child-hood ti●l his old age profit in the vnderstanding of them ; not for that so much of them as is necessary to saluation , is so hardly to be atteined ; but for that when once ones faith is grounded vpon them , so many and manifold misteries remaine for the more intelligent proficients , inuolued in the words , and the ma●ter ▪ that the mo●t aged , witty , and industrious may say when he is become perfect , then he begins . For which elswhere he professes ; that he is ignorant of more things in scripture then he knowes . Therfore only prayer , meditation , and study will not surfice for euery one to find out the true and certaine sense of euery place of Scripture , which for euery one to assume to himselfe would not be a certainty of faith , but presumption of pride . And the same which is sayd of Prayer , Meditation , and study , may be sayd of skill of tongues , conference of originall texts , and other places , and of consideration of antecedents and consequents , of phrases and the like . Of which see Stapleton . Which supposed , the answere to all the former obiections is facile . First , Dauid did read and study the Scripture , but he did it for his priuate consolation and meditation ; not for his foundation in fayth , in which he was before grounded . 2. Timothy did read and study them from his childhood , but to learne the sense and meaning of them of his Maisters and teachers , not to be iudge and censurer of them , and that for his instruction in manners , not for his doctrine of fayth , which he receaued from his Ancestours , not from his owne reading of Scripture . 3. S. Peter did will them to attend to the propheticall doctrine , but not to interprete it according to euery ones priuate spirit , and proper interpretation ( which he forbids , saying : No (a) prophesy of Scripture is made by priuate interpretation : ) much lesse with a neglect of the rules and grounds of fayth , or with a contempt of the Pastours and Superiours of the Church of God , preferring its owne before their exposition . 4. S. Paul affirmes , that we must be built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles (b) , that is , not only vpon the written word of the Apostles or Prophets ( for many had fayth and were Cittizens of Saints , and Domesticals of God before any scripture or writing of the Apostles was extant , and many built their fayth vpon the Apostles , who writ nothing at all ) but vpon the doctrine and fayth reueiled to the Apostles , and by them left by preaching or writing to posterity , and as such by the Church proposed to vs. Out of which nothing can be inferred for making the scripture , much lesse the priuate spirit interpreting it , the sole or sufficient ground of Fayth . Againe , taking the foundation either for the doctrine or writinges of the Apostles , and they who are built vpon it , or for principall partes , or for the body of the Church , we may consider first the foundation of doctrine either in it selfe , and so , as being the truth reuealed , it is the ground of fayth ; or in respect of vs , as by vs it is accepted , and so it relyes vpon the Pastours and Prelates of the Church , by whome it is proposed to vs as reuealed , and for whose authority we receaue it as reuealed . Secondly , we may consider the Church , either as it is the whole body of all faythfull in all tymes , especially after the Apostles , and so it is built vpon the doctrine preached and written , or as it signifies the first heads and directours of it , to wit , the Apostles , and so it is built immediatly vpon Christ , and the holy Ghost , reuealing to them that doctrin and scripture which they haue left to posterity , and which they preach and propose to vs ; and in this sense the Church , that is , the Apostles and first Pastours , were before the doctrine was either preached or written by them , & so were the foundation of their doctrine and preaching of it to vs , though to the rest of the faythfull the doctrine preached and written by them is the foundation vpō which their fayth is built . Which answere doth not only cleare the Scripture for hauing any priuate spirit as Iudge ouer it : but also declares how the Church is built vpon the doctrine of the Apostles , or Prophets ( taking the Prophets , eyther for the writings of the Prophets in the old Testament , or for the Interpreters of the Apostles writing in the new ) and also how the Church in the sense before declared , is the ground of the Apostolical and propheticall doctrine reuealed to the Church , and the first Pastours of it , and by them left to vs , who receaue it from them , and their authority , and so from the Church . 5. They of Beörea did search the scriptures whether those thinges were so as Paul declared (a) , that is , not so , that by searching the scripture they did make themselues , and their spirit iudge of the Apostolicall doctrine preached out of scripture : but so , that either being nor yet fully conuerted and satisfyed , they would with diligence and in humility enquire further of the doctrine preached , which is alwayes permitted , and aduised to all ( for otherwise he that giueth credit quickly , is light (b) of hart ) or that being satisfyed they would , as Catholicke Doctours do , search out , conferre and vnderstand those places of scripture which Paul did alleadge , and thereby the more strongly confirme themselues , and better satisfy others in Fayth . In which as they did proceed prudently and piously , and we permit and aduise euery learned Catholike to do the like : so they did no more make either their spirit , or the Scripture interpreted by their spirit , iudge of the Apostles doctrine , then if one for searching the testimonyes of S. Augustine , which are cyted by Bellarmine , should therby be sayd to make himselfe iudge of Bellarmine his doctrine , or as one searching the places cited by Caluin , to see if they be as they are by him cited , should thereby make himselfe iudge of Caluin and his doctrine . Which to inferre out of their actions , as it is absurd , so is it to inferre , that the Beröeans made themselues iudges of S. Pauls doctrine out of the Beröeans , seeking out the places which S. Paul alleadged . 6. Our Sauiour willed the Iewes to search the Scripture : it is true , but which Iewes ? to wit , those who were learned ; and how ? Not so that he would make them , and their priuate spirits iudges of Scriptures , or the truth found in them , but that he would haue them , being yet incredulous , studiously to informe themselues of him , being the true Messias , out of those Scriptures , which they belieued already to be true , and to beare true witnesse of the true Messias ; which is no more then to persuade any Protestant to read Scriptures , Fathers , and Catholike authours , and out of them to informe himselfe of the verity of Catholike Religion , which is to search out the truth , and not to make himselfe , and his priuate spirit iudge of the grounds of truth , or of the truth which is to be found in thē . And this is all that can be inferred out of these places : & this may suffice for the solution of all such argumnets or obiections , as are made out of Scripture by the Protestants for the establishing of this priuate spirits power and authority to interprete Scripture , and to iudge of al controuersies of Fayth . FINIS . A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL MATTERS handled in this Booke . A S. Ambrose his commendations pag. 58. His authority against the priuate Spirit . pag. 59. Angells apparitions pag. 74. Difficulties about them . pag. 81. Apostles their authority to iudge of Fayth . pag. 166. Their power deriued from Christ . pag. 167. Their successors power to iudge of Faith. pag. 168. The foundation of Fayth . pag. 390. Apparitions of God , or Angells ; in what places ; to what persons . pag. 75. Apparitiōs of Diuels in diuers shaps ; of beastes ; of men ; of Angells ; of Christ ; of the B. Trinity . ibid. & 140. Of soules in Limbo , Purgatory Hell and Heauen . pag. 77.78 . Difficulties to know which be apparitions of God , Angells , Diuells , soules . pag. 79. Apparitiōs of Sathā inward by suggestions , pag. 98. By imaginary illusions . pag. 102. By exteriour visions pag. 104. S. Augustine commēded , against the priuate spirit . pag. 61. For the profundity of holy Scripture , and authority of Fathers . pag. 64. For necessity of Fayth . pag. 182. agaynst Circles . pag. 210. B BIshops and Priests , their office pag. 153. Their authority to iudge of Religion . pag. 162. Their Tribunal & power in the old Law , the beginning , progres , & end . pag. 162. In the law of Christ . pag. 165. What their authority is . pag. 166. Their authority proued by scripture . pag. 168. How for it extends . ibid. Their authority for euer . pag. 168. In all Councells . pag. 170. C CAluin his saying against the priuate spirit pag. 36.64 . His Circle between the spirit of euery man , & a Councell . pag. 215. His doctrine of the doctrine of saluation . pag. 234.239 . Of saluation of Infants without Baptisme . pag. 235. Of Christs sinne , and despaire on the Crosse . pag. 257. Of the B. Trinity . pag. 304 Of Christs Diuinity . pag. 305. Of Christs descent into Hell. pag. 308. Of his Ascensiō pag. 3●0 . Of beatitude before the day of Iudgment . pag. 311. Cases of Conscience , for feare of sinne in vaine according to Protestant doctrine ▪ pag. 26● . Catholikes aduātage aboue Protestants . pag. 24. In the habit of faith . p. 15. In the credible testimonies of Vnity , Sanctity , Vniuersality , Succession , Miracles , Examples . pag. 27. In the infallible Church-authority . pag. 28. Catholikes belieue all Reuelations , ancient , generall , infallible . pag. 25. Catholikes may challenge all which the Protestants may . pag. 28. Yea the priuate spirit . pag 29. Differēce between iust Catholikes & Protestants . pag. 266. Good life-confessed in the auncient , and late Catholikes , in the people and the Clergy . pag. 347. Catholike and Protestant doctrine compared in giuing more honour to God , to Christ , to Saints , Angells , Scripture , Sacraments , to Church , Fayth , Good workes &c. pag. 350. Christ , by Protestant doctrine no generall Redeemer . pag. 248. No perfect Redeemer from sin , & his suffering of Hell paynes due to sin . pag. 249. No Sauiour from sinne , Sathan , sensuality , the curse of the Law , or from Hell. pag. 250. No perfect Phisitian . pag. 251. No law giuer . 252. An vniust iudge . 253. No Priest , or offerer of Sacrifice . 254. Made ignorant , 256. Sinfull ▪ & suffering hell paines . pag 257. Christian Assēblies in the Primitiue Church , in what manner they were for that tyme. pag. 382. Church-authority necessary to fayth . pag. 10. infallible 11. proued by Scripture . pag. 16. Church , selected , priuiledged , armed , established &c. obligeth , p. 12. It consists of Pastors . Ibid. Is proued by Fathers & reason . Ibid. Necessary to expound Scripture . pag. 125. Church-practice A rule to confute heretikes . pag. 125. Church-pr●position and scripture-authority no circle . pag. ●02 . Vpon Church falling & failing frō faith what absurdities do follow , vz. That all anciēt Concels , & Doctors were Antichristiā : That Prophesies are false . pag. 231. That Turkes , Iewes , Gentils , haue a more credible Church , then Christians . pag. 230. Church-practice , a meanes to interpret Scripture & iudge of Doctrine pag. 125. Church of Christ a Congregation of great sinners . pag. 26● Circle , what it is . pag. 198. Difference betweene a lawfull & vnlawfull Circle pag. 199. And betweene a Circle , as obiected against Catholikes and Protestants . pag. 200 Catholikes Circle cleared as being partiall in diuers kinds of causes , and to diuers sorts of persons ▪ pag. 202. Protestants Circle between the Scripture and the Spirit . pag. 206. Betweene the Spirit & Fayth . 210. Betweene Election and Scripture . 212. Betweene the Spirit of euery person , and of a Councell . pag. 215. Protestāts Circle vnto the same kind of cause , and that totally . pag. 208. Absurdities that follow vpon it . pag. 212. Councells 3. of the Iewes in Christs tyme. pag. 164. How the holy Ghost assisted or fayled in them . pag. 164. Councells a meanes to interpret Scripture . 128. Councells haue byn a meanes to iudge of Fayth . pag. 171. Concupiscence made originall sinne , and what followes thereon . pag. 227. D DIuells . Apparitions of them . pag. 75. Difficulties to know them . pag. 80. Signes to know the motions of them . 83. Their subtility 95.97 . Their deluding of Heretickes auncient & moderne . pag. 95. Their tempting to sin , & to vertue 99. Examples of their apparitions to Heretickes . pag. 100. By imagination & visibility . pag. 10● . F FAyth . Six meanes to Fayth . pag. 3. Materiall formall obiect proposition . Ibid. Credible Testimonies , pious disposition , habit . pag. 4. Reuelation to the Apostles . Ibid. Necessity of a proponent cause Ibid. Credible Testimonies . pag , . 4.7 . & 192. Fayth requires a pious disposition supernaturall , & frees an infused habit permanent , not perpetuall pag. 6 The order of these helpes , vz. credible Testimony , Church-proposition , grace actuall , infused habit , reuelation . pag. 7.8 . The Resolution of Faith , dispositiuè , deriuatiué , eff●ctiuè , formaliter . pag. 8. Shewed by the Samaritan womā and Christ pag. 9. The helpes to Fayth , external , eternall , internall , pa. 14. Wanting in Protestants , 15. Fayth depends vpon authority . pag. 117. Faith required to know scripture & the sense of it . p. 118.120 . The rule of Fayth . pag. 146. Fayth , one . pag. 183. Certaine . 187. By preachin● and hearing . 190. By credible testimonies . 192. Obligeth to acceptance . 194. Speciall Fayth , how certaine in Protestants . 185. Fayth is of eternall verity , and presupposeth the obiect . pag. 228. Cannot stād with certainty of saluatiō , 233.240 . vide Sole fayth . Fayth by hearing , preaching , and mission pag. 190. Sole Fayth , a Protestant Principle , the effect of it . pag. 227. Sequells of Iustification by sole Fayth . p. 222. makes Protestants more certaine of their saluation then was Christ . 233 Makes Protestants as iust as Christ . 234. makes all men to be saued . 235. Is not grounded vpon Gods word . 233. Is false , contradictory ▪ sinnfull , rash , presumptuous , preiudicious to Hope , Charity , and Good life . pag. 243. is iniurious to Christ as a Redeemer , a Lawgiuer , a Iudge , a Priest ; makes him ignorant , sinfull , and damned ▪ pag. 247. Fathers , how esteemed by S. Augustine . pag. 67. Their consent a meane to interprete scripture . pag. 126. Their authority , how great . 12● . Their ancient Practice against Heretikes 227. Alleadged by Fathers and councells . ibid. consulted about scripture . pag. 138. Freewill takē away by Protest . doctrine of Predestination . pag. ●74 . Absurdities following vpon the deniall of Freewill . ibid. G GOd , by Protestant doctrine made Author of sinne , a Sinner , only a sinner , pag. ●77 . A lyer and dissembler . pag. 280. A Tyrant more cruell then any Tyrant . 284. A Diuell , a tempter to sinne , and Authour of sin . p. ●89 . Gods of the Pagās , how many , how vicious , how begot . pag. 220. Men-Gods , Women-Gods . 2●1 . Gods for euery thing : The Gods of the Romans . 2● . Passions , Beasts , Hearbes made Gods. pag. 223. Grace , generall , actuall , necessary pag. 30. How Protestants and Catholikes agree & differ about Grace pag. 31. And the effects of it . pag. 32. Grace , gratis , and extraordinary . pag. 40.378 . Not giuen to all . 380. Not a signe of Holines pag. 119. H K. HENRY the 8. how often he changed Religion . pag. 157. Heresy , what it worketh . pa. 20.56 . Why to be auoyded . 48. The origine of it . pag. 2.49.61.225 . Begon by the priuate Spirit . pag. 141. Compared with Idolatry . pag. 218. Heretikes , how they abuse Scripture . 58. How deluded by Sathan 100.102 . Examples of auncient Heretikes . 10● . Moderne . 100.103 . How discerned by Fathers , by practice of the Rule of Fayth . pag. 120.127 . By Church practice confuted . 1●5 . Deceaued by women . pag. 46. S Hierome commēded . His saying against the priuate Spirit , pag. 59. I IVdge , as necessary in Fayth , as in Lawes : How far he is to be obeyed . pag. 145.161 . What properties are required in a Iudge , and what to a Rule of Fayth , by which he is to iudge . pag. 146. Not the whole body of the Church pa. 147. Not secular Prines . 148. Not the lay people . 155. Not the Scripture . 156. But Bishops and Prelats , as is proued by scripture & Church-practice , are a Iudge . pag. 162. L LAy-People , not Iudges of Faith. pag. 155. Lawes , Precepts , Instructiōs , & Exhortations all in vaine according to Protestant doctrine . pag. 162. Luther against this priuate Spirit . 65. His bad Life , Lust , Enuy , Pride , want of deuotion and good workes confessed . pag. 339. Lutherans disagreemēt about Scripture-sense . pag. 140. O OBiections for the priuate spirits authority answered . pag. 378. Originall sin , made to be Concupiscence . pag 227. Absurdities that follow vpon Originall sinne remaining . pag. 259. That the Church of Christ is a congregation of great sinners . pag. 261. That the elect may commit as wel great sinnes as good workes . ibid. That in vaine is all mortification and labour to ouercome all Temptations , ibid. That great sinners may be perfect men , and perfect Protestants . pag. 261. That in vaine are al Lawes of Gods Church or Cōmon Welth. p. 6● ▪ All Consultatios , exhortations , all Case● or care of Conscience vaine . ibid. P PAgans saued , according to Protestants . pag 242. Predestination to damnation a Protestant Principle , and the effect of it . pag 2●8 . Absurdities that follow of it , vz It makes men Atheists . pag ●71 . Desperat● Examples of both . pag. ●72 Takes away Freewil in all sort of actions : All desert of reward or payne . 274. Makes God the Author of sin ●76 . A sinner . 277. Vide God. And is the origine of Atheisme and liberty pag 27● . Priests & Pastors of the Church are interpreters of Scripture . pag. 117. And the triers of Spirits . pag. 1●7 . 118 . Princes , not Iudges of cōtrouersies and Fayth , pag 148 They are sheep , not Pastours , proued by Fathers pa. 149. Absurdities that follow vpon making them Iudges of Fayth . pag. 153. Protestants , want all means of Faith to confute Pagans , confirme Catholikes , and reduce Heretickes , pag. ●5 . Want all credible Testimonies to the same , pag 17. All Church infallible proposition , 19. All pious disposition , ibid. All infused Fayth . pag. ●0 . Obiects Materiall and formall , ●1 . All reuelation made to the Apostles , pag. 23. Protestants relye vpon a motion of the priuate Spirit , pag. 25. In what they agree with Catholikes , pag. 30. And differ from them , about the Spirit in the Name , Vniuersality , Operation , Permanency , and effect of it . pag. 30. What they belieue of the Spirit . pag. 30.31 . How they make the Spirit Iudge and trier or Councells , pag. 36. Protestants compared with false Prophets , pag. 44. With Eliu Iobs friend , 47. Protestants Faith & Saluation how doubtfull : as relying on the priuate Spirit , p. 14● . And more doubtfull then Catholikes ibid. Sects and diuisions among them , 184 Protectants doctrine in the connexion of their electiō , faith spirit , Scripture-sense , & saluation , pag. 205. Their Circle between scipture and spirit , pag. 206. Betweene spirit and Fayth , pag. 201. Betweene Election & scripture-sense , 21● . How they make Scripture the sole meanes of Fayth , and the spirit the sole meanes to know scripture , 2●7 . 2●1 212. Protestants doctrine reduced to 4 heads , that is ▪ Church-contempt , sole Fayth , originall sin , and Predestination . pag. ●26 Their doctrine of the certainty of saluation , how contrary to Faith , and inferring a Generall saluation of all , pag 2●7 Their doctrine of Fayth what it is , and how contradictory 243. Vide Fayth . Not grounded vpon scripture , 243.245 . They are made Iust by sinne . 244. Presume vpon Iustice without ground , 245. Destroy all hope and charity , 246. Teach good life , not out of their owne principles , 247 Make Christ no redeemer nor Phisitian of soules . Vide Christ , and pag. 247. &c Their doctrine and scripture , in how many points contra●y , pag 280 ▪ How it leads to bad life , to flouth , lust , and cruelty , pag. 330. Derogates frō the honour of God , of Christs saints Sacraments , Grace , &c. p 350 Protestants Church of what kind of persons it consists , 260. Their doctaine of sin and good workes , pag 261. The bad life of the Protestant common people confessed in Germany , pag. 335. In England , 337 Of their Ministers , 338. Of their Founders Luther , Caluin , Swinglius , Iacobus Andreas , &c. pag. 344 Protestant Reformers most of them Friars , Priests , & Breakers of the vowes of Chastity , pag. 346 ▪ S SEcts and diuisions , how many mong Protestants , pag. 184. Selfe-opinion and conceite cōdemned , pag. 50. Sinners perfect Protestāts , pag. 261. Good members of their Church , p. 261. Spirits , diuers and doubtfull , not sy to be discerned , but by speciall gift , pag. 35. By what Rule to be tryed , ibid. By vniō with the Church not by Scripture , pag. 36. By whome to be tryed ; that is , by the Pastors , not the people , pag. 39. Spirits their variety and diuersity in nature , cōdition & operation , pag. 70. Spirits vitall and naturall , pag. 71. Spirituall motions their origine , pag. 7● . some spirituall , some sensible , pag. 73. Spirits of God , of Angells , of Diuells , of soules departed , how hard to be discerned , pag. 74. Rules to discerne their motions , pag. 83. Difficulty to iudge certainly of these Rules , pag. 93. In respect of mans infirmity , and Sathans subtility , 93. Signes of good Spirits , 89. Differēce betweene good and bad spirits , ibid. How hard to discerne them by scripture , pag. 109. Not to be discerned by all faythfull , ibid. Spirituall maisters necessary , pag. 111. Spirit of God , the Interpreter , as wel as the maker of scripture , p. 38.39 . Gods Spirit how it worketh in euery one , and what it is , 373. How it differs in Catholicke & Protestant doctrine in the exposition of scripture and certainty of saluation , pag. 37. Spirituall men , how they iudge of all things , ibid. Priuate Spirit the mother of all heresies , pag. ● . May be chalenged as well by Catholikes as Protestants , pag. ●8 . What it worketh , pag. 30.34.38 . Confuted by Scripture , pa. 34. Why not to be belieued , ibid. Why it cannot be a Iudge , pag. 37. What it is , in whome it is , what it worketh , how it is punished , pag. 46. Is blind , lying , deceytfull , pag. 44 Is confuted by scripture out of S. Iohn , S Paul , S Peter , Exechiel , Iob , and other scriptures , pag. 33.40.48.50 . By Fathers in the six first ages after Christ , pag. 55. A Puritā spirit described out of Iob , pag 47 ▪ Is only a selfe opinion , pag. 50. The priuate spirit cannot discerne the difficulties about the Spirit of good Angels , soules , diuels , pag. 80. cānot discerne spirits good or bad , pag. 112. cannot be meanes to interprete scripture , 1●1 . cānot explicate what bookes are scripture , in what language , figures , what seeming contradictions , what difficult places . 131. Priuate Spirits exposition of scripture is against scripture , false , fallible , contrary to the spirit of Gods Church , and author of all heresies , pag. 1●6 184 It cannot be a Iudge as not able to know , & be knowne , pag 17● . It wants authority . 174. Infallibility , 175 Certainty , ibid. & ●8● . Duration , immutability , Visibility , Vni●y , pag. 178.188.176 . Vniuersality , warrant to be obeyed , pag. 178. Priuate Spirit is the Protestāts sole groūd of scripture sense , faith & saluation , pag. 182. Authour of al sects , 184. Vpon what ground it relyes , pag ▪ pag. ●87 . Teaches & directs Protestants all in all , pag. ●91 . Cannot oblige others to beleeue any thing , 195. It can giue no credible testimonies of beliefe , pag. 195. Cānot make a knowne and visible Cōgregation , 188. Nor teach an entyre & vniuersall Fayth , pag· 186. T TEntations , vaine to ouercome them by mortification , or labour according to Protestāts , pag. 26● . V VNity wanting in the priuate spitit of Protestants , pag. 178.188.176 . Vniuersality also wanting in the same , ibid. Visibbility , a like , ibid. W WOmen , seducers of ancient and later tymes , pag. ●●6 . VVorkes neither hinder damnation , nor help to saluation , according to Protestants , pag. ●61 . FINIS . Faultes escaped in the printing . PAge 5. line 2. adde it . pag. 6. l. 20. in , read is . pag. 24. l. 16. haue , read hath . pag. 26.29 . is read as . pag. 34. l. ●7 . him read them . pag. 63 l. 23. glorify , read glory . pag. 76. l. 21. adde to . pag. 103. l. 22. adde her ▪ pag. 104. l. 30. dele to . Ibid. l. 32. his read her . pag. 107. line 33. after men , adde of which first S. Paul 1. Cor. 12. pag. 117. l. 22. after force adde of reason . pag. 121. l. 31. of read from . pag. 123. l. 14. whome read them , p. 129. l. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ibid. l. 27 dele in . pag. 136. l. 31. Act. 15 12. read Act. 13.21 . pag. 152. l. 3. dele S. Ibid. l. 1● . read were not thus . pag. 163. lin . ●4 . dele and. pag. 174. lin . 10. vnity read vntye . pag. 183. lin . 15. adde First . pag. 187. lin . penult . Heretickes read Hereticke . pag. 194. lin . ● . more read most . pag. 198. lin . 23. read knowne after and vnknowne , as &c. pag. 208. lin . ●3 . affection read assertion . pag. 209. lin . 22. therfore read before pag. 210. l. 13. the read their . pag. 215. l. ●9 . spirit read spirits . pag. 216. lin . 10. adde to be . pag. 241. lin . 7. read so it is true that euery ones sinnes &c. pag. 24● . adde euery one . pag. 244. lin . 2● least read best . pag. 247. lin . ●0 . read lesse pardonable . pag. 250. lin . 16. dele and in the effect thereof . pag. 255. lin . 11. adde and confession pag. ●56 . lin . 2● . one read onely . pag. 259. l. penult . now , read new . pag. 260 ▪ lin . 25. pointed read painted , Ibid. lin . vlt. dele pit of . pag 263. l. 11. read that he had no freewill . pag. 269. lin . 24. free read freedome pag. 270. lin . 20. esteeme read esteemed . Ibid. lin . 28. his , read thus . pag. 288. lin . vlt. dele stel pag. 293. lin . 18. read tell him that which . pag 296. lin . 6. read in him sinne . pag. 311. lin . 22. adde to , pag. ●14 . lin . 3. read need not . Ibid. lin . 33. read from euer . pag. 320. lin . 10. neuer read euer , Ibid. l. 21. dele to . pag. 324. lin . 11. dele all . pag. 329. lin . 6. we read will. pag. 330 lin . 29. debauched , read debased . pag. 340. l. 21. read one hundred thou●and . pag. 346. lin , 14. read he is diuulged . pag. 348. lin . 4. dele by . In the Margent . PAg. 4. Mat. read Marc. Ibid. Ephes . 2.10 . read Ephes . 2.20 . pag. 5. Psal . 24.25 . read 92.5 . Ibid. Philip. 2.33 . read 2.13 . pag. 11. Eph. 25.29 . read Ephes . 5.27 . pag. 12. Matth. 20.10 . read 28.19 . Ibid. Matth. 15. read Marc. 16.15 . pag. 15. confirme read conuert . pag. 50. Iob. 12. read Prou. 1● . pag. 60. Ep. ●6 . read 60. pag. 65. read Tom. 7. cont . Iulian . l. 1. c. ● . pag. 104. 3. Reg. 12. read 3. Reg. 22. pag. 182. Aug. serm . 8. read 8● . Other Faultes , if any haue escaped , it is desyred of the gentle Reader to correct them by his owne iudicious reading ; the Author being far absent from the Print , and forced to commit the same to strangers . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A12062-e2970 Hierom. Six meanes or helpes to attain faith 1. The material obiect what we do belieue . 2. The formall obiect or reuelatiō why we belieue . (a) Ioan. 15.15 . (b) Mat. 16.15 . (c) Eph. 2.10 (d) 2. Thes . 2 14. 3. The proponēt cause declaring the certainty of what , and why we belieue . 4 Credible Testimonies to conuince the Vnderstanding , of the probability of fayth . (e) Psal . 25 Eccles . 15.4 . Luc. 24.25 . The pious disposition of the will disposed by grace to giue consēt to the verity . (f) Phi. 2.23 . (g) Phi. 16. (h) Mar. 16.26 . (i) Act. 28.24 . (*) Matt. 23 37. The guift or habit of faith cocurring to the act of assent or beliefe . (k) Heb. 11.3 . (l) Rom. 1.17 . (m) Ibid. (n) Rom. 10.10 . (o) Rom. 5.1 (p) Ioan. 12.42 . (q) 1. Cor. 13 24. (r) 1. Tim. 1.20 . 2. Tim. 2.17 (s) 1. Tim. 6.10 . (t) 1. Tim. 10.19 . (u) Heb. 6 5. The order & manner of operatiō of rhe six meanes of fayth . 1. Credible testimonies persuade . 2. The churches authority proposeth . 3 Grace inclin●th the will. 4. The habit of faith enableth the Vnderstanding to belieue the articles reuealed , and the reuelation of them . How fayth is resolued Dispositiuè . Directiuè . Effectiue . Formaliter . (w) Ioan. 4.39 : (x) Vers . 42. Effects of Fayth . The necessity of these six meanes of Faith. Of credible testimonies Of the pious disposition of the habit of Fayth . Of the materiall obiect . Of the formal obiect . Of the proponēt cause (y) Rom. 10 17. Infallibility Aug. de vtil . credendi . Which is church proposition . (a) Psal . 32 12 (b) Matt. 28 1.20.20 . (c) 1. Cor. 13.16.17.19 . (d) Cant. 4.8 Ioan. 3.19 . (e) Ose . 2. (f) 2. Cor. 11.2 . (g) Rom. 12.5 . Eph. 4.4 (i) Ephes . 5.25.29 . (k) Act. 20.28 . (l) Mat. 28.20 . (m) Ioan. 14.16 . (n) Esa . 59.21 . (o) Ioan. 14.16 . (p) Ioan. 16 13. (q) Matt. 16 18. (r) 1. Cor. 4.21 . (s) 1. Cor. 5.3 . (t) Act. 15.28 . (u) 1. Tim. 3 15. (w) Matt. 16.18 . (x) Matt. 15 15. (y) Luc. 10.16 . (z) Matt. 13 2. (a) Luc. 10.16 . (b) Matt. 18 17. (c) Mar. 16.16 . The church that is , the pastours of it . (d) Ephe. 4.11 . (e) Ier. 3.15 (f) Rom. 10. (g) Rom. 10.14 . Church propositiō cōfirmed by Fathers . Iren. lib. 3. cap. 4. Aug. lib. 1. cont . Crescō . cap. 33. Luth. de anti . Eccl. tom . 7. fol. 562. Ger. 2. part . 10.40 . The Protestants want all the meanes of faith . Externall . Eternall . Internall . Protestants want credible testimonies , which are such as either may . 1. Confirme Pagans , & these are , (h) Valentia tom . 3. dis . 1 q. 1. art . 4. pag. 87. &c. In respect of Christ . Of Christiā doctrine . Of holy Scripture . Of Christiā Professours . 2. Or may confirme Catholikes , such as are , Aug. lib. cont . epist . Funda . cap. 4. Consent . Authority . Succession . Name Catholike . (*) Aug. de vnit . Eccl. c. 7. tom . 7. Concione 2. in Psalm . 30.12 . 3. Or may reduce Heretiks , such as are , Vnity . Sanctity . vniuersality Succession . Protestants want testimonies of credibility . 1. To conuert Pagans 2. To conuince Heretikes . As vnity ▪ with the primitiue Church . Or among themselues . Sanctity of doctrine . Of miracle (n) Luth. conc 2. Domin . 1. Aduentus . (o) Becan . de fide cap. 6. num . 4. Vniuersality . Of name Catholike . Of place . Of tyme. Succession of Ordination . And Vocation . Protestants want Church-infallible proposition , in that they Disobey their Pastours . Disclaime generall Councels . And condemn their whole Church of errour . Protestants want a pious disposition of the Will. By obstinacy by which They fal into heresy . Loose their fayth . Belieue no truth by any diuine Fayth . Separate themselues frō Christ . Protestants want an infused guift of Fayth . Protestants want the material obiects , or articles of Fayth : because they belieue not Traditions , nor many partes of Scripture in which they are reuealed . Nor many articles belieued by ancient Church and Fathers . Not any article by diuine fayth . Protestants want the formall obiect of faith or diuine reuelation : As not depending vpon the reuelations made to the Apostles , but to them selues by their priuat spirit . Catholikes aduantage of the Protestants . ● . In the materiall obiect belieued , as belieuing , not only what is reuealed in scripture interpreted by their owne spirit : But what is reuealed , or declared in Scripture , Tradition , Councells , Church-practise , Fathers . 2. In the formall obiect which we make , not sense reasō , or the priuate spirit . But reuelation . Ancient . General . Continued . Infallible . 3. In the internall assistance of grace , Protestants depend only vpon a motion of priuate spirit . We vpon a permanent guift & seuerall helps of Grace . 4. In the credible testimonies , they haue none . We haue Vnity with the ancient Church . With one head . VVith our selues , Sanctity of doctrine . Sanctity of life . Of miracle● Vniuersaliry of name . Of place . Of tyme. Succession of Ordination , and Doctrine . Exampls of Martyrs , Cōfessours , Doctours , & Virgins ▪ 5. In the infallible proponēt cause they haue none at all . We haue infallible Church authority . The priuate spirit might as well be chalenged by Catholikes , as Protestants . 2. Cor. 11. ●● About the necessity of the spirit . Catholikes , & Protestants agree . Differ , 1. in the name . 2. In the vniuersality of it . 3. In the māner of operation of it . 4. In the permanency of it . 5. In the effect of it , what Catholiks assigne . What Protestants assigne . In respect of the obiect . In respect of the subiect . ●alu . 4. Inst. 17.2 . in the French editiō . Notes for div A12062-e7890 The priuate spirit not to be belieued The reason . The effect of it . (a) Act. 20.29.3 . (b) 2. Pet. 2.1 . (c) v. 2. (d) v. 10. (e) v. 14. (f) v. 19. (g) v. 18. (h) v. 20. (i) v. 21. (k) 2. Pet. 3 16. Reasōs why it cannot be belieued . (a) 1. Cor. 2 ▪ 12. (b) 1. Cor. 2.11 . (c) 7. Cor. ●·12 . (d) 1. Reg. 16.14 . (e) Ioan. 15.16 . (f) 2. Paral. 18.22 . 1. Tim. 4.1 (g) Es . 11.2 (h) Es . 19.14 . How & by what rule spirits are to be tryed . Catholikes rule . (1) 1. Cor. 12 4.11.13 . (2) Ioan. 14 16.26 . (3) 1. Cor. 12 2. Protestants rule . Cal. in 1. Ioa. 4. v. 1. Who are to try spirits according to Catholikes . According to Protestants . Conclusiō . (a) Matt. 24 4.5 . (b) 2. Pet. 2.1 (c) Ib. v. 2. (d) 2. Pet. 2.10 . (e) Ib. v. 14. (f) Ib. v. 19. (g) 2. Pet. 3.16 . (h) Ibid. (i) Act. 20.30 . The second proof out of S. Peter . The scripture is to be interpreted by the same spirit , by which it was penned (4) Ephes . 4. Chrys . hom . de spir . sanct . adorando . Clem. ep . 5. Cal. in Cōm . in hunc locum Bellar. l. 3. c. 6. de interpr . verbi Dei. Inference . Conclusiō . The third proofe out of S. Paul. The guift of interpreting scripture is gratia gratis data . It is not cōmon to all faythfull . Inferences . Matth. 7.22 Conclusiō . 4. Proofe out of Ezechiel . By whom is described . The spirit . The persōs . The effects . The punishmēt of it . The spirit of false Prophets and Protestants compared . Hierem. 29.8 . The persōs . The effects . Inferences . Women seducers . Hier. epitom . 1. epist. ad C●esiph . Conclusiō . The fifth proof out of Iob. Eliu the Busite his priuate spirit . Eliu , & the Protestants spirit alike . 3. Reg. 22.23 The sixth proofe out of S. Paul , admonishing , Who is an Heretike . Sanct. lib. 2. mor. c. 7. n. 1. Aug. ep . 162. Qui sententiam suam , quāuis falsā & peruersā , nulla pertinaci animo sitate defēdunt ; praeser tim inquam non audaciâ presumptionis pepererunt , sed à seductis & in errorem lapsis parentibus acceperunt : quaerunt autē cauta solicitudine veritatem , corrigi parati cum inuenerint , nequaquā sunt inter haereticos , deputandi . Aug. l. 18. de ciuit . Dei c. 51. Qui in ecclesia Dei morbidū aliquod prauumque sapiunt , si correpti vt sanum rectūque sapiāt , resistunt cōtumaciter , suaque pestifera & mortifera dogmata emēdare nolūt , sed defensare persistūt , haeretici fiūt & foras exeuntes , habentur in exercētibus inimicis . Aug. l. 4. de Bapt. cont . Donat. c. 16. Why an heretike is to be auoided . Tert. de prescript . cap. 6. quia in quo damnatur sibi clegit . Conclusion The 7. and last proofe out of diuers places of Script . (a) Prou. 3.5 7. (b) Iob. 12.15 . (c) Prou. 14.12 (d) Is . 5.21 . (e) Deut. 12.9 . (f) Rom. 1.22 . (g) Rom. 2.8 (h) Thes . 1.8 . Inference . (a) Is . 19.11 . (b) Apoc. 5.1.2 . (c) 2. Pet ▪ 1.20 . Aug. l. de vtilit . credend . cap. 12. Cap. 17. Cap. 7. Bellarm. l. 3. c. 6. de interp . ●erbi Dei. Notes for div A12062-e12370 What Fathers are cited . Aug. tom . 7. contr . Iuliae . pelag . l. 1. c. 2 Sed pauca paucorum , quibus tamen nostri contradictores coguntur erubescere , & cedere , fi vel in ijs Dei timor , vel ●ominum pudor , tantum malum peruicaciam superauerit . What authority they haue . What proofes they bring . Testimonies of the Fathers in the first age (a) Clem l. 10. recognit . Obseruadū est , vt cùm lex Dei legitur , non secundum proprij ingenij intelligentiā legatur : sunt enim multa in diuinis scripturis , quae possunt trahi ad eū sensū , quem sibi vnusquisq , spōteprae sumit : sed fieri nō potest . In the secōd age . (b) Iren. Vnusquisque fictionem quam à semetipso adinueuit , illam esse sapientiam dicit , seque indubitaté , incontaminatè , & sincerè absconditum scire mysterium . (c) Tertul. l. de prescrip . c. 42. fol. 400. which booke he wrote an . 197. Vnusquisque pro suo arbitrio modulatur quae accepit , quemadmodum de suo arbitrio composuit qui tradidit . (d) Idem cap. 38. fol. 399. Quibus propositum fuit aliter docendi , eos necessitas coegit aliter disponendi instrumenta doctrinae : vnde autē extranei & inimici Apostolis haeretici , nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae , quam vnusquisque suo arbitrio , aut protulit , aut recepit ? (e) Idem c. 4. f. 49. Qui lupi rapaces , nisi sensus & spiritus subdoli , ad infestandum gregem Christi intrinsecus delitescentes ? (f) Idem c. 1 Haereticus destinari potest is , qui deserto quod prius fuerat , id postea fibi elegit quod retrò nō erat . Idem . Haereses dictae graecâ voce ex interpretatione Electionis , quâ quis siue ad instituēdas , siue suscipiēdas eas vtitur : ideo & damnatū sibi dixit Haereticum , quia in quo damnatur sibi elegit : Nobis verò nihil ex arbitrio licet inducere , sed nec ●ligere quod alius de arbitrio suo indux●rit . (g) Idem . lib. 2. cont . Marc. cap. 2. (h) Id. lib. 4. ad Marci . cap. 4. Humanae temeritatis , non diuinae authoritatis est haeresis negotiū , quae sic semper emendat Euangelia , dum vitiat . (i) Idem de praescrip . c. p. 17. fol. 393. Nihil proficit congressio scripturarū , nisi planè vt stomachi quis ineat auersionem aut cerebri . quid promoue bis exercitatissime Scripturarum cùm fi quid defenderis , negatur ex aduerso ; fi quid negaueris , defendatur : & tu quidem nihil perdes nifi vocem in contentione , nihil consequeris nifi bilem ex blasphematione . Valent. non materiā ad scripturas , sed scripturas ad materiam excogitauit . fol. 399. c. 38. (k) Aug. de Genes . ad literam lib. 1. cap. 18. (l) Clem. Alex . libr. 3. Quanquā ij ▪ qui haereses sectantur , audeant vti Propheticis scripturis : tamen primùm neque omnibus vtuntur , neque integrè , sed quae ambiguae dictae sunt intelligentes , transferunt illas in priuatas suas opiniones . In the 3. age (m) Aug. l. 2. de doct . Christ. c. 42. (n) Cyp. de vnit . Ecclesiae . Christianos se vocant , & ambulantes in tenebris , habere se lumen existimant ; blandiente aduersario atque fallente , qui secundum Apostoli vocem , transfigurat se in Angeli lucem , velut Angelum lucis , & subornat suos velut Ministros iustitiae , efferentes noctem pro die , interitum pro salute , desperationem sub obtentu spei , perfidiam sub pretextu fidei , Antichristum sub vocabulo Christi . (o) Tom. 1. epist. 55. Nemo aduersus sacerdotum collegium quidquid moueret , nemo post diuinum iudicium , post populi suffragium , post coepiscoporum consensum , iudicem se ▪ ●on iam Episcopi , sed Dei faceret . Nemo dissidio vnitatis Christi ecclesiā scinderet ; nemo ●ibi placens , & tumens s●or●im foris haeresim nouam conderet ▪ (p) Idem . ep . 65. Haec initia Haereticorum , & ortus , atque conatus Schismaticorum malè cogitātium , vt sibi placeant , vt praepositum superbo tumore contemnant ▪ ab Ecclesia receditur sic , altare foris collocatur , pacē & ordinationem & vnitatem relinqunt . (q) Tom. 3. praefat . de Card. oper . Tā in diuinis quam in philosophorum doctrinis , nec tutū , nec honestum in●ruditos , & ignaros sēsuum ad literas illas pertinentium , consilire ad discussionem eorum quae nesciunt , & de his sibi vsurpare magisterium quae ignorant . In the fourth age . (r) Aug. tom . 7. cont . Iulian. lib. 1. c. 2. (s) Amb. in Tit. cap. 3. Haeretici sunt , qui per verba legis , legem impugnant : proprium enim sens●m verbis astruunt , vt prauitatem mentis suae legis authoritate commēdent . (t) Magni periculi res est , si post tot Prophetarum oracula , post Apostolorum testimonia , post Martyrum vulnera , veterem fidem quasi nouellam discutere praesumas ; & post tam manifestos duces in errore permaneas , & post moriētium sudorem otiosa disputatione contendas : veneremurergo in Sanctorū gloria fidē nostram . (u) Prosp . lib. de ingrat● . (w) Aug. ep . 903. ad Hier (x) Oros . lib. 7. hist. c. 43. (y) Dam. ep . 124. (z) Hier. ad Paulin. ep . 2. Haeretici quidquid di xerint legē putant , nec scire dignātur quid Apostoli quid Prophetae sēserint , sed ad suum sēsum incongrua aptant testimonia , quasi grande & non vitiosissimum docendi genus , deprauare sententias , & ad voluntatem suam scripturam trahere rēpugnantem . (a) Idem in cap. 5. Amos. & 10. Ose tom . 5. Haeretici adeo acumen & sensus ingenij percipientes , vt bona naturae in Dei cultum verterent , fecerunt sibi ex his idola : nullus autem potest haeresim struere , nisi qui ardentis est ingenij , & habet dona naturae : talis Valentinus , Marcion , isti quia terrae bona verterunt in titulos mortuorum , quia omnis doctrina eorum non ad viuentes refertur , sed ad mortuos , tam eos quos colunt , quam quos despiciunt . (b) Idem tom . 4. in 8. Ose . Sermones & sensus sacros verterunt in Idola , quae de suo corde finxerunt . (c) Idem in c. 4. Os . tom . 1. Perdito mentis iudicio , adorant idola quae de suo corde finxerūt : fornicationis spiritu possidentur . (d) Sensus , & eloquia Scripturae Haeretici posuerūt infomentum superstitionis , & imagines diuersorum dogmatum & abominationes offendiculorū suorum fecerūt ex ijs . (e) In 5. Dan fol. 45. Haeretici assumunt prophetarum verba , & testimonijs diuinae scripturae vtuntur ad suum sensum , & dant bibere his quos decipiūt , & cum quibus fornicati sunt . (e) In cap. 5. Os . Omnes gentiliū & Haereticorum questiones eaedem sunt , quia non scripturarum authoritatē sed humanae rationis sequūtur . (g) In Ez. 16. tom . 4. Nostra Hierusalem visio pacis ab haereticis scinditur , quando vnum laterum testimonium scripturae de proprijs carpentes locis conantur assuere his , quibus non queunt coaptare : vae qui suunt ceruicalia sub omni cubito . (h) In Ezech. 13. tom . 4. Vae Haereticis his , qui doctrinis requiem pollicentes , omnem aetatem , sexumq , decipiunt , vt capiant animas miserorum propter pugillum hordei , non panem integrū , seu solid a testimonia scripturarum , sed quae haeretica prauitate fracta , dissecta , & sanctos quosque decipiunt , & ad mortem trahunt , & peccatores varijs promissionibus consiliare contendunt . (i) Epist. 16. ad Ioan. Hieros . Manichaei , Marcion , Hebion , Gnostici , quae de purissimo scripturarum fonte assumunt testimonia , non ita interpretantur vt scripta suut , sed simplicitatem sermonis Ecclesiastici id volunt significare quod ipsi sentiunt . (k) In Os . 9. Aliqui qui se Deum videre iactant , & non spiritu sancto reguntur ; sed daemoniaco in partes varias circūferente &c. In 1. Gal. tom . 6. Philomelam Apellis virginem Angelus quidam diabolici spiritus & peruersus impleuit . (l) In Gal. 5. tom . 6. Haeresis ad opera carnis refertur , graecè ab Electione dicitur , quod scilicet eam sic sibi eligit vnusquisque disciplinam , quā putat esse meliorem . quicunque aliter scripturam intelligit quam sensus Spiritus sancti flagitat , Haereticus appellari potest . In the 5. age (m) Euseb . l. 1. c. 27. hist. Quod sens●s scripturarū arbitratu suo interpretantur . (n) Non aliunde ortae sunt haereses quam quod quisque Haereticorum priuatā sententiam à proprio spiritu haustā cōmuni Ecclesiae sentētiae anteponat . (o) De Geness lib. 7. cap. 9. Non ob aliud sunt Haeretici , nisi quia scripturas nō intelligentes , suas falsas opiniones contra earum veritatem peruicaciter asserunt : (p) Tom. 8. Psalm . 158. Conc. 1. Diuina eloquia periculosa sunt his , qui ea velint ad cordis sui peruersitatem detorquere , haec est magna & inusitata peruersitas , quia cum debent ipsi viuere secundum voluntatem Dei , volunt viuere secundum voluntatē suam , rectam arbitrantes , non quod Deus vult , sed quod ipsi volunt . (ç) Aug. Confess . l. 12. cap. 25. Veritas tua Domine , nec mea est , nec illius , aut alius , sed omnium quos ad eius communionem publicè vocas ; terribiliter admonens nos , vt nolimus eam habere priuatam , ne priuemur eâ . Nam quisquis id quod tu fruendum omnibus proponis sibi propriè vendicat , & suum esse vult quod omnium est , à communi propellitur ad sua , id est , à veritate ad mendacium . (q) Aug. de na ● gra . c. 42. Quod scripturas ónes secundum priuatos sēsus legerunt (r) Lib. de Baptis . cont Donat. Nimis amādo sententiam suā , vel inuidendo melioribus vsque ad praecidēdae cōmunionis , & condendae schismatis vel haeresis sacrilegium peruenire diabolica praesumptione . (s) Videtis vos agere , omnis vt è medio scripturarum auferatur authoritas , & suus cuique author animus fit , quid in quaque scriptura probet , & improbet , id est , non vt authoritati scripturarum subijciatur ad fidem , sed sibi scripturas ipse subijciat . (t) Cyril . Alex l. 2. thesaur . c. 3. Probè facerent haeretici omnes , si vndique studerent verum scripturarum sensum venari , nec ad voluntatem suam omnia vert●re . (u) V●c . Lyr. commonit . Si quis videtur Propheta esse , aut spiritualis rerum ●piritualium magister , sūmo studio vnitatis & aequalitatis cultor existat , vt neque opiniones suas ceteris praeferat , & ab vniuersorū sensibus non recedat . (w) Scripturam sacram pro ipsa sui altitudine , non vno eodemque sensu omnes accipiūt , sed eadem eloquia aliter atque a●iter , alius & alius interpretatur , vt pene quot homines sunt , tot illic sententiae erui posse videantur : & id●irco multum necesse est propter tantos tā varij erroris āfractus , vt Propheticae & Apostolicae interpretationis linea secundum Ecclesiastici & catholici sensus normā dirigatur . (x) Bed. in 2. Pet. 1. Queadmodum Prophetae non sua propria , sed Dei verba scribebant , tradebant , praedicabant : ita & Lector eorum non sua propria interpretatione potest vti , nec à sensu veritatis exorbitet . Ideo dicimus , ne quis ad libitum suum scripturas exponere audeat . Beda . (z) Luth. vt Coclaeus a. 15.24 . pag. 125. Neque nos impedire debet quod alij gloriantur de spiritu , & scripturas parui faciunt . Sed , bone amice , spiritus huc , spiritus illuc : ego quoque fui in spiritu , atque etiam vidi spiritus ( si omnino de proprijs gloriandum est ) fortè plusquam illiipsi intra annum videbunt , quotiescumque etiam gloriantur ; & spiritus meus etiam in aliquo se ostendit , cùm tamen spiritus corum in angulo fit tacitus . Of Caluin . (a) Cal. l. 4. instit . 17.19 . Horribili fascino Satā mentes eorum demētauit . Sathā perturbulen tos spiritus hodie quoque molitur . (b) Calu. l. 3. Instit. 2.10 . Tot vanitatis recessus habet , tot mendacij la tebris scatet cor humanum , tam fraudulente hypocrisi obtectū est , vt seipsum saepe fallat . (c) Calu. in 1. Ioan. 41. . Multi falsi doctores titulum spiritus mentiuntur . Insurgunt multi fanatici homines qui se temere iactant spiritu Dei praeditos esse . (d) Stulti sunt qui ad honorifici tituli strepitū attoniti ▪ &c. (e) Loquuntur priuato suo nomine , prodeunt priua to suo nomine , proferunt ex proprio sensu . (f) Tom. 7. cont . Iulian. Pelag. lib. 2. prope finem . Eorum ergo appende sententias , nolo esse plures , vt eas te pigeat numerare , sed non sunt leues , vt eas dedigneris appendere , imò tam sunt graues , vt te videam sub earum onere laborare . (g) Hic sunt & ceteri , quorum te mouere debet tanta consensio . non est ita , sicut stylo maledico scribis , conspiratio perditorum : in Ecclesia Catholica , doctrinae sanae studijs claruerunt spiritualibus armis muniti , & accincti : strenua contra Haereticos bella gesseruut : perfunctis fideliter suae dispensationis laboribus in pacis gremio dormierunt . (h) Finge te nescire quid dicunt Ecclesiae sanctae tot tantique Doctores , qui vita optimè gesta debellatisque suorū temporum erroribus , gloriosissimè de hoc saeculo , antequam vos ebulliretis , exierunt . (i) Tom. 7. cont . Iulian. Pelagianum lib. 2. prope finem . Verū etsi tales nō fuerunt in his causis , quas ad s● delatas , & inter partes cognitas , cū hic viuerēt , suo iudicio definierunt ; ad hanc tamen causam tales erant , quando de illa sententias protulerunt : nullas nobiscum , vel vobiscum amicitias vel attenderunt , vel inimicitias exercuerunt , neque nobis neque vobis irati sunt ; neque nos neque vos miserati sunt : quod inuenerunt in Ecclesia , tennerunt ; quod didicerunt , docuerūt ; quod à Patribus acceperunt , hoc filijs tradiderunt . Nondum vobiscum apud istos iudices aliquid agebamus , & apud eos acta est causa nostra : nec nos nec vos eis noti fueramus , & eorum pro nobis latas contra vos sententias recitamus ; nondum vobiscum certabamus , & eis pronuntiantibus vicimus . (k) Tom. 7. cont . Iulian. P●lag . lib. 1. cap. 2. circa medium . Quod credunt , credo ; quod tenent , teneo ; quod docent , doceo ; quod praedicant , praedico . Istis cede , & mihi cedis ; acquiesce istis , & quiescis à me : postremò , si mihi per eos amicus fieri non vis , saltem peto , ne per me illorū efficiaris inimicus : sed quomodo non efficieris , si in isto errore permanseris ? Quantum ergo meliùs , vt his accedas , ab illo recedas ? Tantùmne apud te possunt Pelagius & Caelestius , vt à solis ortu vsque ad occasum , tot ac tantos Catholicae fidei Doctores , & defensores antiquos , & nostrae aetati contiguos , dormientes & manentes , non solùm deserere , verum etiā Manichaeos audeas appellare ? (l) Tom. 7. cont . Iulian. Pelagian . lib. 2. prope finem Et vsque adeo permiscuit ima sūmis longus dies , vsque adeo tenebrae lux , & lux tenebrae esse dicuntur , vt videant Pelagius , Caelestius , Iulianus ; & caeci sunt Hilarius , Gregorius , Ambrosius ? (m) Tom. 7. contra Iulian. Pelag. lib. 1. cap. 2. sub finem . Vt inuante meliore atque fortiore , te vinceres ; & animositatem , quid aliud , quàm humanam , quâ cupis tuam qualiscunque sit , quoniam tua iam facta est , praeualere sententiam , potentiore pietate superares ? (n) Ibidem . Sed istis Sacerdotibus , vel potius in eis ipsi Domino Christo , non velut qui nunc primùm veneris , traderes , fed velut qui recesseras redderes ? (o) Tom. 7. contra Iulian. Pelag lib. 2. versus f●nem . Quantò tibi essent isti Iudices optabiliores , si teneres Catholicam fidem ; tantò tibi sunt terribilio●es , quia oppugnas Catholicam fidem , quam in lacte suxerunt , quam in cibo sumpserunt , cuius lac & cibum paruis magnisque ministrauerunt , quam contra inimicos , etiam vos tunc nondum natos , vnde nunc reuelamini , appertissimè ac fortissimè defenderunt . Talibus post Apostolos sancta Ecclesia plantatoribus , rigatoribus , aedificatoribus , pastoribus , nutritoribus creuit : ideo prophanas voces ve●●rae nouitatis expauit , & cautâ ac sobriâ ex admonitione Apostolicâ ; ne sicut serpens Euam seduxit astutiâ suâ , sic & mens eius corrumperetur à castitate quae est in Christo : Catholicae fidei virginitati infidias vestri dogmatis surrepentis exhorruit , & tanquā caput colubri calcauit , obtriuit , abiecit . His igitur eloquijs & tāta authoritate sanctorum , profectò aut sanaberis , Dei misericordiâ donante , quod quantū tibi optem , videt qui faciat ; aut si , quod abominor , in eadem quae tibi videtur sapientia , & est magna stultitia , perduraueris , non tu iudices quaesiturus es , vbi causam tuam purges , sed vbi tot Sanctos Doctores egregios , atque memorabiles Catholicae veritatis accuses , Irenaeum , Cyprianum , Reticium , Olympium , Hilarium , Gregorium , Ambrosium , Basilium , Ioannem , Innocentium , Hieronymum , ceterosque socios ac participes eorum , insuper & vniuersam Christi Ecclesiam , cui diuinae familiae Dominica cibaria fid eliter ministrantes , ingenti in Dominogloria claruerunt . Aduersus hanc autem miserabilem , quam Deus auertat , insaniam , sic respondendum esse video libris tuis , vt fides quoque aduersus te defendatur istorum , sicut contra impios , & Christi professos inimicos etiam ipsum de fenditur Euangelium . Notes for div A12062-e15840 Diuersity of Spirits . Greg. lib. 4. Dial. cap. 3. In nature and essence . (a) Heb. 1.14 . (b) 1. Pet. 5. In state and condition . In worke & operation . S. Bernard . serm . de 7. spiritibus . (c) 1. Ioan. 4.2 . (d) Psal . 103 4. (e) Psal . 77.49 . (e) Psal . 77.49 . (f) Col. 2.18 (h) 1. Cor. 2.11 . (g) 1. Cor. 2.12 . Diuers sortes of apparitions . Spiritual & internall . Sensible & externall . In the imagination . By Oracles . Aug. de spir . & lit . c. 25. By Visions . (a) Act. 15. By dreames Apparitiōs of God. (a) Gen. 3. (b) Gen. 6. (c) Gen. 17. (d) Exod. 3. Gen. 6. Gen. 20. (e) Gen. 32. (f) Exod. 11. (g) Ezech. 6. (h) Isa . 6. (i) Dan. 7. (k) Gen. 21. (l) Gen. 23. (m) Iosue 2. (*) Iudic. 6. (n) Tobie 6. (o) 4. Reg. 1. (p) 2. Reg. 14 (q) Luc. 1. In what places . (r) Luc. 22. (s) Gen. 32.25 . (*) Gen. 32. (t) Iud. 6.12 (u) Dan. 3. (w) Luc. 1. (x) Act. 10. To what kind of persons . In what tymes . Apparitiōs of Diuels in the shape of beasts . Delrio disqu . lib. 2. q. 30.2 . p. 160. (a) Gen. 2. (b) Mar●l l. 5. cap. 7. (c) Iouius in Elench . (d) Hugo Flor. Chron. Pet. Clun . lib. de mir . (e) Metaphr . apud Surmense Maij. (f) Damian . in eius vitae . (g) Hieron . in Hilar. (h) Marulus lib. 5. cap. 7. (i) Athan. vita S. A● . (k) Su● . eius vita Maij mense . (l) Remig. c. 13. l. 1. daem . (m) Ioan. Nid . l. vlt. Forniicae . (n) Sozem. lib. 6. cap. 28. Of women and men . (o) Matth. 4. Beat. Vincen. mag . hist , Stel. in Lucam . Gen. concord . Caiet . 3. parte q. 7. (p) Cyp. de ador . Anast. l. 3. q. 37. 2. Reg. 28. (q) Sulpit. vita Martin . (r) Greg. 4. Dial. 10. (s) Sur. t●m . ● . Inn. 7. (*) Marul . l. 5. c. 7. Sab. exemp . lib. 10. c. 23. (t) Tyreus lib. 1. de apparit ▪ c. 5. Seba●t . Michaelis pneumat . c. 4. Binsfeld . confess . malefic . praelud . 12. (u) Luth. de Missa abrog . (w) Zuing. de supplem . Eucharistiae . (x) Luth. sup . (y) Luth. lib. cont . Carol. Of Saints , Angells , Christ and God. Of Incubi ▪ Of Chimera's . As God. As seruāts . Apparitiōs of soules in Limbo . (z) Math. 1● (a) 2. Mach. 15. (b) Eccl. 46.23 . 1. Reg. 28. (*) Aug l. de cura pro mort ● . 15 . Ambr. lib. in Luc. Basil ▪ ep . 80. martyr . (c) Greg. l. 4. dial . c. 4. & 55. (d) Bern. vit . S. Malachiae . (e) Anton. 3. p. Chron. tit . 23. cap. 7. (f) Plin. de viris illustr . (g) Plin. l. 3. cap. 2. (h) Philostr . vita Apolonij (i) Phil. in Anton. Val. lib. 1. cap 6. (k) Plin. lib. 8. epist. (l) Greg. Tur lib. 8. cap. 5. (m) Greg. l. 4. dial . c. 51. (n) Marulus lib. 1. c. 11. (o) Ado. in chron . aetat . 6 Apparitiōs of Saints . (p) Act. 9.4 . ●2 . 7.26.14 1. Cor ▪ 15.8 . (q) Ambros . Anxiat . Bafil de noua trad . Greg. in 4. psal . poenit . (r) Dion . Al. ad Demoph . (s) Sur● tom· 5.15 . Nouēb (t) Benterus chrō . hisp . c 23 (u) Greg. Nis in vita eius . (w) Greg ▪ 4. Dial. 14. (x) Ioan. Hieros . eius vita . (y) Niceph. 14. hist . 24. (z) Niceph. l. 1· hist . c. 1● . (a) Prat. spirit . c. 14. (b) Greg. Turo . gloria martyr . c. 8. (c) Greg. Tur c. 8. (d) Anton. p. 4. lit . 5. (e) Trith . l. in Monast. Herson . (f) Synod . 7. cap. 2. (g) Niss . eius vita . (h) Procop. l. 6. de aedific . Iustin. (i) Rudolph . Babēburge de veter . Princ. Germ. zelo . (k) Amb. ser . 19. de pas . S. Agnetis . (l) Oros . l. 7. cap. 36. (m) Euseb . hist . cap. 5. (n) Aug. lib. de cura mort (o) Metaphr . in Theod. martyr . (p) Niceph. 10.12 . (q) Procop. aedific . Iustin . Delrio disqu . lib. 2. q. 26. sect . 5. Difficulties in discerning of any spirit . About the spirit & apparitions of God. Of Angells . Of Diuells . Of soules departed . Difficulties of discerning spirits vpon the vncertainty of the rules of discerning them . Vincent . Ferr. tract . de vita spirit . cap. 22 Turrecremat . praefat . defens . reuelat . D. Brigittae . Carlerius p. 1. sportae fragment . Ferrar. compend . reuel . Ioan. Francis . Picus lib. vltimo de praenotion . Ribera lib. 1. vitae S. Teresae . Gerson tract . de distinct . verarum reuelat . lib. de probat . spirituum . Bonauentura proces . relig . tract . 1. Puent . dux spiritual . tract . 1. cap. 23.24 . Delrio disquisit . lib. 4. c. 1. quest . 3. sect ▪ 1. Signes of euil spirits . Rules to discerne good spirits . Puent . dux spirit . tract . 1. cap. 23.24 25. The good spirit moues to Verity . Piety . Ierem. 23.29 Sometymes in generall . Isa . 11.29 . Ambr. lib. de virginit . circa medium . Sometimes in particuler In the superiour part of the soule . With pure intention . With discretion . With a spirituall tast . (1) Psal . 33.9 . (2) Phil. 1.9.10 . (3) Ioan. 3.8 Humility . Obedience . Resignation Bonauentur . processu 7. relig . cap. 18. Peace . Difference betweene good & bad spirits . Apparitiōs . Forme . Matter . Effectes . Place . Tyme . Persons . Holy things Thyraeus de apparit . lib. 1. thes . 411. Delr . de mag . disquisit . l. 6. cap. 2. q. 3. Differences betweene inspirations and suggestions . In order of time , and season . In the end of Gods honour . In humility In confidēce in God. In mercy . In reuerence to Saints In obseruing the Cōmandements . In works of miracles , or reuelations . In the conueniency for tymes . In peace & tranquility . 1. In respect of mans infirmity to apply them : Which Cannot apply the rules of sciences . Matth. 14.26 . Mar. 6.44 . Takes inspirations for illusions . Illusions for inspiratiōs . Isa . 5.20 . Prou. 14.12 16.25 . Eccles . 8.24 . 2. In respect of Sathans subtility , who hath deceaued . (a) 1. Tim. 4.1 . (b) Chrys ho. 12. in 1. Tim 4. (c) Hier. scr . Ecclesiast . (d) Cassian . collat . 7. c. 31. (e) Clem. Ro. lib. 2 . ●ecogn . (f) Iustin. Apol. 1. (g) I●n . lib. 1. cap. 8.21.24 . (h) Epiph. de haeres . (i) Theod. l 1. & 4. fab . hist. lib. 5. c. 23. Cyril . lib. 3. Catech. Epiph. haer . 27. Caesar . l. 9. c. 12. mirab . Malmsb . de gest . Angl. lib. 3. Baron . anno 1018. Bredenb . lib. 7. collat . c. 41 Luth. lib. de abrog . missa . Zuing. de suplem . Euchar. Calu. epist. ad Bucer . (a) Luth. con . Carolost . (b) Lib. de missa angul . (c) Colloq . VVittem . an . 1537. (d) Synops . cap. 37. (e) Lib. con . Anabap. (f) Alber. lib. cont . Carol. (g) Lind. lib. de fugienda Idolatria . (h) Bark . paraen . lib. 1. cap. 3. Prou. 30 . 2● ▪ The Diuells subtilty . (a) Apoc. 16.13 . (b) Iob. 40 ▪ 11.18 . Iob. 1. ● . 1. Pet. 5. ● ▪ Iob. 1. 1. Pet. 5. 1. By inward suggestions , persuading . According to euery ones disposition . 1. To publike sinnes . 2. To memory of sins past . 3. To lesser sinnes . 4. To a security from sinne . 5. To vices in shew of vertues . 6. The 〈◊〉 and effect of the Diuels subtilty . Greg. Exampls of Sathans illusions . Of heretks . Matth. 26. Of other religious persons . Cass . col . 2. cap. 3. Cass . col . 1 . ● cap. 7. Euseb . lib. 7. hist. cap. 14. Bernar. Lutzenbergus catalog . haeret . Prateolus Elench . haeret . lib. 7. haeres . 17. Exampls of false reuelations . Euseb . lib. 3. cap. 22. & lib. 7. c. 10. Iren. lib. 1. cap. 8.9 . Euseb . lib. 5. cap. 15. Epiph. haeres . 40. Aug. ep . 165 & lib. 3. de origin● animae cap. 2. Theod. lib. 4 . ●aeret . fabul . Delrio Disquisit . lib. 4. cap. 1. q. 3. sect . 2. pag. 263. Exampls of false Christs Acosta de nouiss . tempor . lib. ● . cap. 11 Delrio Proleq Disquit . In Spaine . (a) Bernard . Fuxen . catal . lit . G. & N. In France . (b) Neubrigenfis l. 1. de rerum Britā . cap. 19. In Poland . (c) Mart. Bitl . in Anal. Guagn . in vita Sigism . Delrio disqu . lib. 2. q. 9. (d) Prateolus Lindan . Genebrad . Florimund . Gualter . an . 1600. In Belgia . (e) Delrio lib. 4. disquis . c. 1. q. 3. sect . 3 In England . Stow 3. Eliz. Ann. 1591. Elizabeth . Prou. 30.19 . The Diuells subtilty ▪ By apparitions exteriour in the shape Of men . Of Angels . Iob. 1.6.2.8 3. Reg. 12.19.22 . Zach. 1.19 . 3. Reg. 22.11 Lip. Feb. 16. out of Metaphrastes . Ephrem . vi● . Abrah . E●e . Anton. vitae Simeon Styl . Cassia . col . 2. cap. 2. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 36. Miscel . lib. 3. Of Christ . Sulpitius Seuerus in vitae S. Martin● cap. 25. dial . 1. Greg. Turon lib. 2. de vitis ▪ Patrum , cap. 10. apud Sur. August . 1. Bonau . lib. de profect . spirit . cap. 19. Gerson . apud ●ont . supra . & Dauroltiū cap. 2. tit . 26 exempl . 3. Dionys . vita Pachomij . Pallad . c. 31. Ribadineira ●ita Ignatij lib. 1. cap. 3. Orlandinus hist. Societa● . lib. 1. c. 22. Picus Miran . de strigibus . Thom. Cantiprat . anno 1523. Bencius Annal . Societat . anno 1590. Surius 6. Iu● cap. 19. Of the B. Trinity . The difficulty to discerne spirits proued by authority of scripture . (a) Pro. 16.2 (b) 3. Reg. 8.39 . (c) Iere. 6.27 (d) 1. Ioan. 4 1. (e) Psal . 63.10 . (f) Iere. 15.19 . 2. Cor 11.14 1. Cor. 2.11.14 . Of holy men . Bernar. serm . 74. in Cant. Gers . de probat . spirituū . Difficillimū est tam multos decern●re , cùm in diuersis spiritibus multa similitudo reperiatur . Puentes dux spiritu . tract . 4. c. 2. sect . 1. Inferences . 1. What visions & apparitiōs are not to be much esteemed . (a) Num. 24.17 . (b) Ioan. 11.50 . (c) 1. Reg. 1● 6. & 2. Reg. 22.12 . (d) Matt. 1● . 2 . (e) Act. 19.13 . (f) Gen. 37.12 . (g) Ios . 5.13 . (h) 1. Reg. 3 9. (i) 3. Reg. 19 12. (k) Luc. 1.19 . Necessity of a spirituall maister . Luc. 2 . 4● . Act. 9.6 . Exod. 18 . 2● Sophron. pra . spiritua . cap. 109. Conclusion That the priuate spirit cannot be a discerner of spi●its . Notes for div A12062-e27820 VVhat interpretation of Scripture is required as necessary & infallible . Scripture abused by Sathan . Matt. ● . 6 ▪ Ioan. 7.52 . Iewes . Ioan. 19. Turkes . Marfil . Ficin . lib. de vera religione , apud Stapl. Princip . fidei controu . 7. l. 10. cap. 1. Vincent . Lyr. cap. 37. Heretikes . Matth. 7. Vincent . Lyr. cap. 36. 1. Cor. 11. Gal. 1.6 . 1. Pet. 2.3 . Ambros . ad Tit. 3. Hilar. lib 2. de S. Trinit . Hier. Coment in 1. Gal. Authority of Pastours necessary to infallible exposition of scripture . The people is to obey , not iudge his Pastour . (a) Heb. 13.17 . (b) Philip. 3.16 . (c) Coloss . 1.6 . (d) 1. Ioan. ● . 7 . (e) 1 Tim. 6.20 . (f) Gal. 1. (g) Rom. 16 17. The means to find the true sense of Scripture . 1. The rule of fayth proued . (a) Gal. 6.16 . (b) Philip. 3.16 . (c) 1. Cor. 10.15 . (d) Rom. 12.16 . (e) Rom. 16.17 . (f) Colos . 1.6 . (g) 1. Tim. 6.20 . 2 Tit. 1.3 (h) 1. Ioan. 1. (i) Gal. 1. (k) Act. 15. ● (l) 〈…〉 (m) 1. Pet. 1 1. By scripture . Isa . 7.9 . Cypr. lib. con . Iudae●s . Nihil possunt Iudaei de scripturis intelligere , nisi prius crediderint in Christum . Isaias enim dicit , Nisi credideritis non intelligetis . August . tract . 27. in Ioan. Sunt enim quidam in vobis qui non credunt , & ideo non intelligunt , quia non credunt . Propheta enim dixit , nisi credideritis non intelligetis ; per fidem copulamur , per intellectum viuificamur ; prius haeraeamus per fidem , vt sit quod viuificamus per intellectum . Fides debet praecedere intellectum , vt intellectus sit Fidei praemium . Hier. ep . ad Paulin. Lex spiritualis est , & reuelationeopus habet vt intelligatur ; & reuelata facie gloriam Dei contemplamur . Liber in Apocalypsi septē●gillis signatus ostēditur , quem si dederis homini scienti literas vt legat , respondebittibi , non possum , signatus est enim Quanti hodie putāt se nosce literas , & tenent signatum librū , nec aperire possunt , nisi ille aperuerit qui habet clauem . Eunuchus cùm librum teneret , cogitatione conauerit , lingua volueret , labijs personaret , ignorabat enim quem in libris nesciens venerabatur : venit Philippus , ostendit ei Iesum qui clausus latebat in litera , eadem hora credit Eunuchus , baptizatus , & fidelis , & sanctus factus , ac magister de discipulo . (*) Aug. cont . Faustum lib. 4. cap. 2. Non enim estis eruditi in regno caelorum , id est , in Ecclesia Christi vera Catholica : quod si essetis , de diuitijs scripturarum sanctarum , non so●um noua , sed etiam vetera proferretis . (a) Iren. l. 3. cap. 3. (b) Euseb . l. 7. c. 24. l. 5. cap. 15. (c) Socr. l. 7. cap 31. (d) Aug. de vera relig . c. 5 (e) Tertul. de praescrip . (f) Hier. d●al cont . Lucif . (g) Gregor . Nazian . lib. de Theolog. (h) Basil . de Spirit . sancto cap. 27. (i) Atha . ep . ad Epictet . (k) Epiphan . haeres . 5. (l) Haer. 75. (m) Haer. 77 (n) Aug. ep . 28. & 105. (o) Aug. de peccat . meritis lib. 3. cap. 5. (p) Lib. 1. cont . Iul. c. 1 (q) Lib. 2. c. 7. & 1. de Baptis . (r) Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. (s) Orig. pro●mi● de principijs . (t) Aug. de haer . ad Quod vult . By reason . Stapl. contr . 6. lib. 11. c. 3. Vinc. Lyr. c. 2. Vt diuinū Canonem secundum Ecclesiae traditiones , & iuxta catholici dogmatis regulas interpretētur . Quia scripturam sacram pro ipsâ sua altitudine in vno eodēque sensu accipiunt , id circo multùm necesse est , propter tātos tam varij erroris ā●ractus , vt propheticae , & Apostolicae interpretationis linea secundum Ecclesiastici & apostolici sensus normam dirigatur . The Scripture consists of 2. parts . 2. Cor. 3.6.7 Serm. 21. de tempore . Heb. 4.12 . Rom. 1.16 . The Holy Ghost is not inherent in the letter of scripture . Aug. lib. 12. Confess . c. 18 & de Genes . ad literam . The sense of scripture to be found by the rule of Fayth . 2. The practise of the Church a meanes to interprete scripture . Epiph. haeres . 59. Basil . de spiri . sancto cap. 29 Theod haeret . Fabul . lib. 4. August . cont . Iulian. lib. 1. Aug. de bono perseuerant . lib. 2. c. 22 , & 23. 1. Cor. 10.25 . 1. Cor. 5.11 . Aug. de Baptism . contra Donat. l 2. cap. 7. Euseb . lib. 5. cap. 27. The practise of the general Councells . At●an . epist. ad Aphros . Concil . Ephes epist . ad Nest . Vincent . Lyr. cap. 41. Concil . Calc . à c. 5.6 . Concil . Const. à c. 4. Concil . Nic. 2. à c. 10. The decrees of generall Councells a meane to interprete scripture . Proued by the Councel of Nice . Athan. ep . ad Afric . Episc . By the Coūcel of Ephesus . Other profitable rules of Fayth . The priuate spirit cannot assure . Which text is scripture . Which bookes be scripture . Stapl. princ . fid . doct . Controu . 5. lib. 9. c. 5.6 . & 7. Which language the scripture was writ in . Which sense is literall . (a) Es . 7. (b) Es . 14. (c) Psalm . 71. (d) Ioan. 6. VVhich is figuratiue , and what figures are vsed . (a) Ezech. 18 20. (b) Exod. 20.5 . (c) Rom. 11.29 . (d) 1. Reg. 15 11. (e) 3. Reg. 8.9 . (f) Heb. 9 4 (g) Prou. 26.4 . (h) Prou. 26.5.1 . Wisd . 1.13 . (k) Eccles . 10 15. (l) Math. 10.10 . (m) Marc. 6.8 . (n) Ioan. 5.31 . (o) Ioan. 8.14 . (p) Ioan. 20.1 . (q) Marc. 16 2. (r) Rom. 3.18 . (s) Iacob . 2.20 . (t) Gal. 1.10 . (u) 1. Cor. 10 33. (w) Act. 9.7 . (x) Act. 22.9 . Nor explicate difficult places . VVhich are in computation of tymes . Gen. 11.12 . Luc. 3.35 . Act. 7.10 . (a) Gen. 12.4 . (b) Gen. 11.26 . (c) Gen. 11.32 . (d) Act. ● . 4 . (e) Gal. 3.17 (f) Act. 7.6 . (g) Gen. 46.26 . (h) Exod. 1.5 . (i) Act. 7.14 (k) Gen. 23.10 . Gen. 50.13 . (l) Act. 7.16 (m) Gen. 93·8 . (n) Act. 7.16 (o) Gen. 33.19 . (p) Act. 7.16 (q) Gen. 33.19 . (r) Genes . 19 (s) Gen. 48.21 . (a) 4. Reg. 8. ●● . Which are in S. Paul. Mat● . 1.2 . Luc. 3.36 . Ioan. 19. Matth. 27. Marc. 15. Which many haue doubted of . The priuate spirits exposition of scripture is , Against scripture . 2. Pet. 1.19 Vide Stapl. princ . fid . lib. 10. c. 4. pag. 36. Is false and naught . Aug. l●b . 12. Confess . cap. 25. Veritas tua , Domine , nec mea est , nec illius , autalius , sed omniū quos ad eius communionem publicè vocas , terribiliter admonens nos , vt nolimus eam habere priuatam , ne priuemur ea ; nam quisquis id , quod tu fruendum omnibus proponis , sibi propriè vindicat , & suum esse vult , quod omnium est , à communi propellitur ad sua , id est , à veritate ad mendacium . (a) Ephe. 4.3 (b) 2. Phil. 1 27. (c) 1. Cor. 14 35. (d) Ioan. 5.43 . (e) Ioan. 8.44 . Act. 20.30 . (f) Ioan. 10.10 . (g) Ioan. 3. (h) 1. Ioan. 4 2.6 . (i) Ioan. 10.5 . (k) 1. Cor. 11 (l) Deut. 11.28 . Is vncertain & fallible . Is contrary ▪ to the spirit of the Church . Calu. 3. insti . 9. Luth. primo libro contra Regem Angl. VVhitak . cōtrou . 1. q. 7. cap. 7. Is the author of all heresies . Stapl. princ . doct . l. 10. c. 4. Inferences . That the Protestant faith is doubtfull . That they rely not vpon scripture . That Catholikes do more securely depend on scripture then Protestants . Notes for div A12062-e37390 A iudge of fayth necessary . How farre the iudge of fayth is to be obeyed . The properties of a rule to iudge by . The whole body of the Church is not Iudge of fayth . Ephes . 4.7 . 1. Cor. 12.4.5 . Ephes . 4.11 . Secular Princes , Kinges , Emperours , are not iudges of faith . They are sheep not Pastours . (a) Ioan. 21.15 . (b) Ioan. 10.1 . (a) Naz. ora . ad subditos timore perculsos , & Imperatorem irastentem . Non suscipitis sermonem liberum , & quòd lex Christi vos meae potestati , meoque subiecit tribunali : scio te ouem esse mei gregis sacri sacrā . (b) Amb. ep . 31. Quid honorificentius quàm vt Imperator Ecclesiae filius esse dicatur ? Imperator enim bonus intra Ecclesiam , non supra Ecclesiam est . (c) Theod. lib. 1. hist. cap. 1. Tanquam filius amantissimus , Episcopis & Sacerdotibus velut Patribus proposuit . (d) Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 2. Vobis dedit de nobis iudicandi . (e) Euseb . lib. 4. cap. 14. Vos intra Ecclesiam , ego extra Ecclesiam à Deo constitutus sum . (f) Zozem . lib. 6. c. 3. Sibi qui vnus e numero laicorum erat non licere , se eiusmodi negotijs interponere , & ideo Sacerdotes & Episcopi quibus haec sunt , inter se conueniant . (g) Paul. Diac. lib. 7. cap. 12. Eligant Episcopos quibus nos qui gubernamus imperium , sincer● capita nostra submittamus . (h) Ambr. epist . 32. (i) Theod. l. 5. cap. 17. Se didicisse quid inter Imperatorē inter●it , & Episcopum . (k) Nic. l. 12 cap. 12. Their authority is temporall , not spirituall . (a) Athan. ep ad solitariam vitam agentes . Ne te misceas Imperator , rebus Ecclesiasticis , neque nobis inhoc genere praecipe , sed potius ea à nobis disce : tibi Deus imperium cōmifit , nobis quae sunt ecclesiae concredidit . (b) Suidas verb. Leont . Miror quomodo ad alia vocatus , alijs rebus te imisceas militaribus enim & politicis rebus praefectus , in his quae ad solo ; Episcopos pertinent praeesse vis . (c) Hilar. Prouideat tua Clementia vt ad ōnes vbique Iudices prouinciarum ad quos sola cura publicorum negotiorum pertinere debet , scribatur , ne posthac praesumant atque vsurpent cognoscere causas Clericorum . (d) Ath● . ep . ad solit . vitam agentes , versus finem . Quid hic quod Antichristi fit , omisit ? Siquidem iam denuo in locum Ecclesiasticae cognitionis suum Palatium tribunal earum causarum constituit , seue earum litium summum Principem & authorem facit . Et paul● post . Quis videns eum in decernendo , principem se facere Episcoporum , & praesidere iudicijs Ecclesiasticis , non meritò dicat illum eamipsam abominationem desolationis esse , quae à Daniele praedicta est . (e) Ambros . epist. 33. Noli te grauare Imperator , vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquid ius habere : noli te extollere , scriptum est , date quae Dei sunt Deo , quae Caesaris sunt Caesari . Ad imperatorē Palatia pertinent , ad Sacerdotem Ecclesiae . Si tractandum est , tractare in Ecclesia didici , quod Maiores fecerunt mei : ●i conferendū de fide , Sacerdotum debet esse ista collatio , ficut factum est sub Cōstantino , qui nullas leges ante praemisit sed liberum dedit iudiciū Sacerdotibus . Quando audisti , clementissime Imperator , in causa fidei laicos de Episcopo iudicasse ? Ita ergo quadam adulatione curuamur , vt Sacerdotalis iuris simus immemores ? Et quid Deus donauit mihi , alijs putem esse credendum ? At certè , si scripturarum seriem diuinarum , vel vetera tempora retractemus , quis est qui abnuat in causa fidei , in causa inquam fidei , Episcopos solere de Imperatoribus Christianis , non Imperatores de Episcopis iudicare ? Athan. epist. ad solit . vitam agentes . Si iudicium est Episcoporum , quid cum eo habeat Imperator ? Sin contra ista minis Caesaris conflantur , quid opus est hominibus titulo Episcopis ? Quando à condito aeuo auditū est , iudicium Ecclesiae ab Imperatore authoritatem suam accepisse ? aut quando vn quam hoc pro iudicio agnitum est ? Plurimae antehac Synodi fuere , multa iudicia Ecclesiae habita sunt ; sed neque Patres istiusmodi res Principi persuadere conati sunt , nec Princeps se in rebus Ecclesiasticis curiosum praebuit . Paulus Apostolus amicos in Caesaris familia habebat , non tamen eos in iudicio socios assumpsit . Theod. lib. 4. cap. 16. Nunquid cum imperio est etiam sacerdotij dignitatem Imperator consequutus ? Nos vero pastorem habemus , cuius nutum sequamur . Gelasius epist ▪ ad Anast. Nosti sili clementissime , quòd licet praesideas humano generi dignitate rerum terrenarum , tamen Praesulibus diuinarum deuotus colla submittis . Subdi te debere cognoscis religionis ordine potius quam praeesse . Nosti itaque ex illorum te pendere iudicio , non illos posse redigi ad tuam voluntatem . Greg. l. 4. ep . 31. ad Ma●● . Sacerdotes esse quosdā Deos inter homines , & propterea ab omnibus etiam Regibus honorandos . (*) Damas . orat . 2. de imagin . Non Regijs regulis , sed Patrum institutis , tam scriptis , quā non scriptis Ecclesiam censeo constitui & gubernari oportere . (a) Ruffn . lib. 1. c. 2. hist . (b) Aug. ep . 262. Sacris Antistibus veniam petitur . (c) August . epist. 32. Sacerdotes de Sacerdotibus voluit iudicare . (d) Concil . Chal. act . 3. Concilium ipsum nos docet de fide sancta , Sacerdotes quod in religione obseruari debeat perspicua decisione docuerunt . Act. 5. Non ad ostendendam potentiam , sed fidem confirmandam ad praesent●m synodum venimus , exemplo religiosi Constantini . Amb. ep 32. Nullas leges praescripsit , sed liberum indicium sacerdotibus dedit , seipsos interpretes constituit Sacerdotes . Chrysost . hom 83. in Matt. Si Dux quis piam , si Cōsul , si is , qui diademate ornatur indignè adeat , cohibe & coerce ; maiorem tu illo habes potestatem . Emperours themselues reclaime this spirituall authority . Cyril . tom . 4. ep . 17. Grat. dist . 6. c. Satis . Misit comitem Candidianum ▪ sed in nullis quae facienda sunt , de pijs dogma tib●s quaesti one● communicare . Ilucitum namque esse eum qui no est ex ordine Episcoporū Ecclesiasticis immiscere tractatibus . (ç) Heb. 5.14 (a) 1. Tim. 4 14. (b) Mat. 2.7 (*) Isa . 9.21 . (c) Luc. 21.15 . (d) Math. 10 20. (e) Luc. 10.16 . (f) 1. Ioan. 4.6 . (g) Ioan. 11.50 . (h) Aug. tra . 49. in Ioan. & 16. cont . Faust . 23. Hoc in eo egit per propheticum Chrisma , vt prophetaret hoc è vita impia , vt nesciens prophetaret . Absurdities that follow vpon regall authority to iudge of Fayth . The Lay-people are not iudges of Controuersies . (a) Mat. 13.34 . (b) Math. 13.11 . Matth. 20. Ioan. 14. (a) Act. 10.6 (b) Act. 10.42 . (c) Act. 10.43 . (d) Heb. 13.17 . (e) Act. 20.28 . (f) Math. 13 30. (g) 1. Cor. 5.13 . (h) Math. 23 3. (i) Luc. 10.16 . (k) 1. Ioan. 4.6 . (l) Rom. 10.19 . The scripture is not a Iudge of fayth . Aug serm . 7. de temp . lib. 3. de doctrina Christ. cap. 5. 2. Cor. 3.6 . The letter of scripture is not iudge as hauing deceaued , Iewes . 2. Cor. 3.15 . Heretikes . Sabellians . Ioan. 10.30 Arians . Ioan. 14.28 . Macedoniās 1. Cor. 2.10 Manichees . (a) Gen. 1.31 (b) Gen. 2.2 . (c) Gen. 1.27 (d) Ioan. 1.3 . (e) Ioan. 5.17 (f) Ioan. 8.44 . (g) Ezech. 18 20. Pelagians . (h) Rom. 5.12.16.19 . Protestants and others . The sense of scripture cānot be iudg The sense is the thing in question . Is obscure and hard . Matth. 28.19 Ioan. 3.5 . (a) Ioan. 13 14. Matt. 26 26. A Iudge is necessary as well in spiritual , as tēporall causes . Bishops & Prelates are Iudges of controuersies of faith . Deut. 17.8 . Priests , and the high Priest , were Iudges in the old law . The beginning of this tribunall . (a) Paral. 19. ●0 . (b) Num. 11 ▪ 16. (c) Exod. 18.13 . The continuance of it . (d) 2. Paral. 19.11 . (e) Mal. 2.7 . (f) Agge 2.12 . (g) Eccle. 12.11.12 . The end of it . Three Coūcels of the Iewes in Christs tym about Christ . Matth. 24. (a) Ioan. 11.49 . (b) Math. 26 ▪ 57. Prelates authority to iudge of cōtrouersies , proued out of the new Testament . Authority to iudge , giuen to S. Peter . Matt. 16.19 Matt. 16.19 Luc. 22.32 . Bellar. lib. 3. c. 5. de verb. Dei scripto . Ioan. 21.16.17 . Ezech. 34.2 . Ezech. 34.5 . Vers . 16. (a) 2. Reg. 5.2 . (b) Psal . 2.9 . (c) Ezech. 34 17. (d) Vers . 20. The same giuen to the Apostles . (e) Mat. 16.18 . (f) Luc. 22.27 . (g) Mat. 23.10 . (h) Rom. 2.20 . (i) 1. Tim. 1 11. (k) Math. 28 (l) Ioan. 1.4 . (m) Math. 5.14 . (n) Ioan. 1.17.18 . (o) Act. 1.8 . (p) Ioan. 10.36 . (q) Ioan. 17.17 . (r) Ioan. 20.21 . (s) Math. 17 5. (t) Luc. 10.16 . (u) Act. 13.47 . (w) Luc. 4.18 . (x) Act. 15.7 (y) 2. Cor. 5.19 . (z) 2. Cor. 5.19 . (a) Mat. 12.18 . (b) 2. Cor. 5.20 . Ephes . 6 20. (c) Ioan. 8.47 . (d) 1. Ioan. The same giuen to the successours of the Apostles . (e) Ephes . 4.11 . (f) Ibid. v. 12. (g) Ephes . 4.13 . (h) Ibid. v. 14. (i) 1. Pet. 5.2 . (k) Act. 20.28 . (l) Tit. 1.5 . (m) 2. Tim. 2.2 . (n) Heb. 13.17 . (o) Isa . 59.21 (p) Ioan. 14.16 . (q) Ioan. 17.8 . (r) Ioan. 17.20 . (s) Mat. 28.20 . (t) Aug. enar . in Psal . lib. 4. epist. 9. (u) Luc. 10.16 . (x) Ioan. 4.6 . (y) Cyp. epist 166. (z) Aug. lib. 4. cont . Don. cap. 43. (a) Rom. 10.15 . (b) Heb. 5.4 . (c) Mat. 18.17 . (d) Chrys . & Theophil . in hunc locum . (e) Mat. 16.18 . (f) 2. Cor. 4 19. (g) 1. Cor. 4.1 . (h) Math. 2● (i) Act. 1. Matt. 24.14 . (k) Isa . 22.22 . (l) Mat. 16.19 . (m) 1. Pet. 2.9 . (n) Luc. 17.35 . The same euer practised in the Church . In councells prouinciall . Act. 19. Ann. 255 ▪ Ann. ●19 . Ann. ●66 . In councels generall . Ann. 317. Ann. 383. Ann. 430. Ann. 454. Ann. 553. Ann. 681. Ann. 781. Ann. 870. Ann. 1121. Ann. 1139. Ann. 1180. Ann. 1228. Ann. 1265. Ann. 1274. Ann. 1311. Ann. 1439. Ann. 1512. Ann. 1563. That the priuate spirit cannot be a Iudge of controuersies of faith . The priuate spirit wants ability to know & be knowne . 2. It wants authority to iudge . (a) Rom. 8.11 . (b) Gal 4.6 . (c) 2. Cor. 5.5 . (d) Rom. 8.15 . (e) Rom. 8.16 . (f) 1. Cor. 2.10 . (g) 1. Thes . 1 6. (h) 1. Ioan. 4.1 . (i) 1. Cor. 2.15.16 . 3. It wants infallibility to iudge certainely . 4. It wants the properties ▪ of a rule of Fayth . 1. Certainty (a) 1. Tim. 3 15. (b) Math. 12 46. (c) Math. 13 44. (d) Luc. 10.16 . (e) Mat. 18.17 . (f) Ioan. 14.16.26 . 2. Duration Isa . 34.10 . Isa . 66.23 . Psalm 71.8 . Eph. 4. 3. Immutability . Duditius apud Bezam ep . theol . pag. 13. (a) Math. 16.18 . (b) 1. Tim. 3.15 . (c) Psal . 88.38 . (d) Isa . 33. (e) Isa . 21.4 4. Visibility . (a) Psal . 18. ● (b) Psalm . 8● 38. (c) Math. 5.16 . (d) Apoc. 2. (e) Math. 5 . 1● . (f) Isa . 2.2 . 5. Vanity . (a) Os . 10.2 . (b) Isa . 19.2 . (c) Luc. 11.17 . (d) Eph. 4.2 . (e) Phil. 1.27 . (f) A●t . 4.32 . (g) Ierem. 32 Ezech. 11. (h) Ioan. 14.10 . 6. Vniuersality . (a) Isa . 54.2 (b) Isa . 60.16 . (c) Isa 6● . 21 . (d) 60.6 . (e) Isa 2.2 . (f) Psal . 88. (g) Luc. 24.47 . 7. Warrant & commission . (h) Isa . 66.23 (i) Act. 1.8 . (a) Mat. 13.44 . (b) Matth. 5.15 . (c) Psal . 22.12 . (d) 1. Tim. 3.15 . (e) 1. Cor. 3.17 . (f) Cant. 4.8 (g) Rom. 12.5 . (h) Mat. 16.18 . (i) Ioan. 16.13 . (k) 1. Cor. ● 21. (l) Math. 23.2 . (m) Luc. 16.16 . (n) Math. 18 19. (o) Marc. 1● ▪ 16. Notes for div A12062-e48360 The priuate spirit is the Protestants ground of Scripture , sense , fayth and saluation . Faith necessary to saluation . (a) Heb. 11·6 . Aug. serm . 8. de tempore . Faith is one Ephes . 4.5 . Leo serm . 4. de natiuit . Iren. lib. 1. cap. 3. The priuate spirits many and cōtrary . G●alt . Cronolog . saecul . 16. & 17. Claud. Sanct. repetit . 1. de Eucharistia . Gordō . controu . 1. cap. 28. pag. 202. de Ecclesia . Caluin . Comment . in 1. Ioan. 4·1 . Hoc nostrū saeculū horrendasectarum pottēta protulit , qua occasione multi attoniti haerēt , & quorsum vertere debent nescientes , om nē pietatis curam●biecerunt . neque enim melius inuenerunt cōpendium sese extricandi ab errorum periculo . Faith is certaine . Chrisost . ho● 12. in epist. ad Rom. Luth. tom . 5. enar . in 1. Pet. 1. Calu. 3. inst . 1.16 . Zuing. tom . 1 in actus despu . Tigur . sayes : Deum Patrem tantū fauere sidelibus , ac ipsi Christo , & tamen certum essenos damna●i nō posse , quam Christum non posse . The priuate spirit most vncertaine . Fayth is entire in all points . Catholike in all persōs The priuate spirit cānot cause an entire & Catholik fayth Fayth is by hearing & preaching Rom. 10.15 . The priuate spirit ouerthrowes all hearing & preaching . Fayth by credible testimonies made probable . Eccles . 19.4 . Cap. 1. sect . 3 ▪ Psal . 92.5 . The priuate spirit destitute of any credible testimonyes . Aug. lib. cont . epist. Fund . Fayth obligeth to hear and accept the meanes of Fayth . (a) 2. Cor. 10 5. (b) 1. Pet. 1.14 . (c) Rom. 1.5 . (d) Marc. 16 ▪ 16. The priuate spirit cānot oblige to accept it . Iud. v. 12. Notes for div A12062-e50190 What a Circle is . Arist. lib. 1. posteriorum resolut . cap. 3. Arist. 2. lib. priorum resol . cap. 5. & . 18. Difference betweene a Circle lawfull and vnlawfull . The Catholikes fal not into a circle between the proofe of scripture by the Church , and of Church by Scripture . What is required to Fayth . The mutual proofe of the scripture & Church . 1. In a diuerse kind of cause . 2. Is partial and not wholy , and solely of the same . The Protastāts diuers Circles . Their gradation and conexion of doctrine , of saluation . The first Protestant Circle , betweene the scripture & spirit . Ioan. 10.27 . Psal . 11. In circuitu im pij ambulāt Aug in Psal . 139. Quis est circuitus eorum ? vt circumeant & non stēt : in gyrum eunt erroris , vbi iter est fine fine . Qui enim in longū it , aliunde incipit , alicubi finit . Qui in gyrum it , numquam finit . Ipse est labor impiorum , quē demonstrat in alio Psalmo euidentius : In circuitu impij ābulant . The second Circle betweene the spirit and fayth . A third Circle between election & vnderstanding of Scripture . Calu. in 1. Ioh. 4.1 . Multi falsi Doctores titulum spiritus mentiuntur . Insurgunt phanatici homines qui se temere iactant spiritu Dei praeditos esse . Stulti sunt qui ad solū honorifici spiritus strepitum attoniti , ipsam materiam non andent inquirere . Quiloquuntur priuato suo nomine p●odeunt in medium priuato suo nomine . Nisi adsit spiritus prudentiae parū aut nihil proderit verbum Dei habere ad manum . Penes singulos erit ius & arbitriū iudicandi Hic quoque valere det examen , quod praescribit Apostolus , vt spiritus probentur Notes for div A12062-e52670 Idolatry what it is . Heresy is a kind of Idolatry . Cyp. de vnit . Eccles . Tert praescr . cap. 40. Hier. in Ezech . 8. & in Abac. 2. Aug lib. 18. de c●uit . Dei cap. 51. Idolatry what number of Gods it begat . Clemens lib. ●ec●gnit . Petri , & itiner . Clem. lib. 10. cap. 6. Iupiter the chiefe of Gods. His cruelty . His lust . Men Gods. Women gods . Cicero de natura Deorum . Eric . de genealog . Deor. Pul●o de Dijs antiquis . Guauerra diall of Princes lib. 1. c. 22. Speciall Gods of particuler thinges . The Gods of Rome . Mens passions made Gods. Beasts made Gods (a) 1. Reg. 31 10. (b) 3. Reg. 16 31. (c) Num. 25.3 . (d) 4. Reg. 1.2 . (e) 3. Reg. 11 7. (f) 4. Reg. 15 8. (g) Iud. 17.5 . (h) 2. Reg. 17 39. (i) 3. Reg. 15 13. (k) 2. Machab . 4.19 . (l) Ezech. 8.14 . Idolatry & Heresy compared . The priuate spirit the mother of all heresies . The first daughter , cōtempt of Church authority . The second daughter sole Fayth . (a) Confess . Saxon. cap. de remiss peccat . Confess . Auglican . art . 11 Belgi● . art . 22 Bohemica art . 6. Augustan● cap. de f●de Gallica art . 20. Luther . de liber . tom . 2. fol. 4. & in Gal. 2. tom . 5. fol. 305. Calu. in Gal. 2.16 . & in Act. 13.39 . In confess . fidei pag. 109. de vera Ecclesiae reform . pag. 318. In Antidot . Concil . sess . 6. Can. 9. Beza in Rom. 3.20 . Pet. Mart. in 1. Cor. 1. f. 32. in 8. Witak . ad rat . 1. Cam. pag. 7. Perk. Catathes . tom . 1. Col. 487. The third daughter , Concupiscence is originall sinne . Luth. in confut . La tom . fol. 220. & tom . 5. in Galat. 1. fol. 227.228 . in cap. 2. fol. 231. ibid. de bonis operib . fol. 581. in natal . Christi fol. 374. Calu. lib. 2. cap. 1. §. 8. & lib. 4. cap. 15. §. 10. & in Antidot . Concil . Trid. ad sess . 5. & lib. 3. Instit. cap. 11. §. 3. & lib. 3. Instit. cap. 1. §. 8. & cap. 14. §. 9. lib. 2. Instit. cap. 11. §. 8 & 9. & lib. 3. cap. 11. §. 2. & 3. Vrb. Regius in locis tom . 1. fol. 358. Witak . de peccat . orig . lib. 2. cap. 3. pag. 656. The fourth daughter , Predestination to dānation . Calu. lib. 1. Inst . cap. 18. §. 1. & lib. 3 cap 23. §. 6. & 9. & lib. 2 cap 4 §. 2. & lib. 1. cap. 18. §. 2. & . 4. & lib. 3. cap 23. §. 9. & lib. 1. Inst . c. 17. §. 5. & 18. §. 1.2 . & lib. 3. cap. 4. §. 2. & lib 1 Inst. cap. 18. §. 3. &c. 2. §. 10. & lib. 1. Inst . cap. 14. §. 2. & lib. 2. cap 4. §. 5. & lib. 3. cap 23. §. 14. &c. 24. §. 13.14 . & lib. 3. cap 24. §. 12. Vide plu●a infra sect . 5 Subdus . 4. Absurdities which follow vpon contempt of Church-authority . 1. The want of a true Church , fayth , and saluation . 2. The misbeliefe of al Prelates , Princes , & people . 3. The falshood of all prophesyes and predictions . Castalio in his preface of the great Latin Bible dedicated to King Edward 6. 2. Tim. 3.15 ▪ Dauid Georg in hist. Daui . Georg. printed at Antwerp : an . 1568 by the Diuines of Basil . & in a Protestant booke intituled , Apocalipsis infigniū aliquorum Haeresiarcharum . printed Lug duni Batauorum ann . 1608. See the Protestants Apology Tract . 2. cap. 3. p. 307. 4. The preheminence of Iewes & Gentils aboue Christians . (a) Aggeus 2.10 . (b) Psal . 2.8 (c) Isa 49.23 (d) Psalm . 71 10.15 . (e) Isa . 42.4.60.9 . Absurdities which follow vpon only fayth . 1. That euery Protestāt is more certaine of his saluation , then Christ was of his owne . 2. That their fayth is not groūded vpon any scripture or authority . 3. That all Protestants are as iust as Christ . (a) Luth. tom ▪ 5. enar . in ▪ 1. Pet. 1. (b) Zuing. to . 1. in art . disp . Tigur . fol. 628. (c) See Kellisons examen part . 2. exam 13. cap. 8. Cal. Turcis . l. 3. cap. 12. Apoc. 22.11 . Luther . serm . de natiu . virginis , & comment . in 1. Pet. 2. (a) ●ucer in Matth. 3. (b) Math. 11.11 . (c) Zuin. to . 1. in art . dis . Tygur . f. 628. 4. That all the world shal be saued , proued by diuers Protestant positions . (d) Calu. Inst 6.24 . Infās à matris vtero in foedore continetur &c. Filiorum haud dubié loco habet eorum filios , quorum semini in patrē se for● pollicitus est &c. Calu. in Antidot . Concilij Trid. sess . 6.9.5 . Verùm infantes à regno Dei arcere libuit , qui ante erepti sunt ex hac vita , quam offerri ad Baptismum potuerint . Quasi vero de nihilo dictum sit eos nasci sanctos qui ex fidelibus nascuntur . Imò quo iure ad Baptismum eos admittimus , nisi quod promissionis sunt haeredes ? Nisi enim ante ad eos pertineret vitae promissio , Baptismum profanaret quisquis illis daret . Quod si Deus in regnum suum eos adoptauit , quanta iniuria fit promissioni , quasi per se ad eorum salutem non sufficiat ? Inclusa est infantium salus in promissione , quâ Deus Fidelibus testatur se fore illis , & semini eorum in Deum . Hac ratione sibi nasci pronunciab at , qui ex Abraham ducebant originem . Huius promissionis beneficio recipiu●tur ad Baptismum , quia censentur Ecclesiae membra . Non à Baptismo igitur initium habet corum salus , sed quae iam in verbo fundata erat Baptismo obsignatur . Calu. ep . 147. & 149. The same proued out of their doctrine , by speciall and only fayth . Remission of their sins & saluation an article of Protestants Fayth . (a) Calu. cathec . c. de fide . (b) Ibid. in ● Matt. 21.21 (c) Beza in confess . cap. 7. sect . 8. p. 60. (d) Idem . in Tim. 4.15 . (e) Idem in confess . cap. 4 sect . 18. p. 15 ▪ (f) Luth. postil . in Domi. 3. Aduent . f. 31. (g) Idem in Psal . 14. tom 3. fol. 247. (h) Bucer in Matth. 16. (i) Confess . August . 1531 art . 4. Saxon. cap. 16. Luth. disput . tom . 1. f. 53. Cal. in Rom. 10.10 . confes . fidei . Lobecius . Par. lib. 3. de Iustif. cap. 4. pag. 643. VVhita . ad r●t . 8. Camp. pag. 36. l. 8. contra Dur. sect . 47. conc . vltim . Per. de Bapt. tom 1. col . 810. Reinol . thes . 2. p. 71. Iew. defenc . Apol. part . 2. cap. 6. sect . 3. p. 149. Par. vbi supra . Luth. tom . 5. enar . in 1. Pet. 1. Zuing. tom . 1. in art . disput . Tygur . f. 628. See Kellison exam . part . 2. exam . 13. c. 8. Calu. Turcis . l. 3. c. 12. See aboue chap. 7. sect . 3. As well the reprobat as the elect obliged to belieue all articles of Fayth . Particuler saluation an obiect of Protestants fayth reuealed . As the Resurrection so the particular saluation of euery one an article of fayth . Zuing. tom . 2. in Exposit . fid . Christ . f. 159. b. circa medium . VVhi. his also defended by Gualt ▪ in Apolog pro Zuing & operib . eius , praefix . tom . operum Zuing. f. 27. a. b. & 28.29 . a. b. Vide Simleru● in vita Bulling . & see Bullengers allowāce of Zuinglius his forsaid Treatise . in Zuing tom . 2 f. 5●0 b. in it . Fox Martyr . pag. 495. That a man is iustifyed by a false Fayth . That a man is iustified by a contradictory fayth . That a man is iustified by a rash Fayth . That a man is iustified by a presūptuous faith . ●ob . 4.10.11 Psal . 17.25 . Rom. 5.19 . 2. Tim. 4.8 . 1. Cor. 3.8.9 . (a) Phil. 2.12 . (b) Eccl. 5.5 . (c) Eccl. 9. ● . That a mā , is iustifyed by a fayth , destroyes hope and Charity . That a man is iustifyed by a faith , which is iniurious to Christ . Which doth derogate from the generality of Christes redemption ▪ (a) 1. Tim. 2 6. (b) 1. Ioan. 2.2 . (c) 1. Tim. 2.4 . (d) Iohn . 1.29 . (e) Ioan. 3.16 . Calu. 3. iust . 22. & in Colo● . 1. in 1 Ioan. 2. Beza colloq . Mont. Pesul . f. 211.214 . &c. Sanch. misc . l 2. pag. 180 Which faith derogates from the perfection of Christs redemptiō . Calu. harm . in 26. Mat. 37.46 . & in 27.2 . Instit. 16. Luth. in Psal 22. tom 3. Witten . ann . 1585. (a) Rom. 3.24.25 . Rom 1.9 . (b) 1. Pet. 1.10 . Act. 5.9 . (c) Apoc. 15.22.14 . (d) Col. 1.10 (e) Act. 20.28 . (f) 1. Cor. 11 25. Luc. 22.20 . Mat. 26.28 . Ma●c . 14.24 . (g) Calu. 2. Instit 16.20 . (h) ●alu . 2. Instit. 17.1 . (a) Rom 6.17 . & 11. (b) 1. Tim. 2 (c) Rom. 7.23 (d) Gal. 3.10 (e) Isa . 28.15 . Calu. Instit. 14.4 . & 9. Luth. confut . Lat●m . Calu. 2. Insti . 7.5 . & 6. Luth. tom . 5. serm . de Matrimon●o . Which makes Christ no good Phisitian of soules . Which makes Christ an vniust ●aw-giuer Isa . 33.22 . Ioan. 13.34 . Which makes Christ an vniust Iudge . Ioan. 3 . 1● ▪ VVhich makes Christ no Priest . Psal . 109.4 . Heb. 5.6 . Gen. 14.18 ▪ Heb. 7.3 . Heb. 5.11 . Gen. 14.18 . By a fayth which makes Christ ignorant . 3. Reg. 4.30 . (a) Luth. c●nc● de natal . Christ. fol. 67 Zuing. in cap. 2 . ●uce . Beza in Heb. 5.7 . & in colloq mont . pag. 177. Bucer . in cap. 2● . Lucae . Danaeus cont . 2. pag. 143 . ●o●st . in anti . Bellarm. pag. 36. VVhitak . ad ●ation . 8. Camp. p. 35. Serranus cōt . Hayū . part . 3. pag. 284.285.289.290 . Cal. harm . in Mat. 9.2 . Matt. 21.18 . Matt. 24.36 . Matt. 26. Luc. 2.40 . Paraeus l. 5. de amissi . gratiae &c. cap. 14. pag. 836. & in Coll. The●l , 9. disp . 6. Sinnefull . Damned . In the pains of hell . Smitheus collat . doctrin . de Christo. cap. 2 art . 11.12 . ●3 . & 22. Smith coll●● . doctrin . lib. 1. cap. 16. art . 10. pag. 4 47. Absurdities which follow vpon Concupiscence being originall sinne . 1. That the whole Churche of the Protestants , is a congregation of great sinners . Smit . collat . l. 1. cap. 13. art . 9. p. 246. art . 9. pag. 446. cap. 18. art . 1. p. 474.476 . 2. That euery Protestant may as well cōmit great sinnes as do good workes , in respect of auoiding damnation . 3. That the grounds of Protestant Religiō admit great sinners to be perfect Protestants . 4. That in vaine & to no end , are 1. all pennāce , mortification , and austeri●y of life . 2. All lawes & Precepts of God , or man. (a) Sap. 6.4 . (b) Prou. 8.15 . (c) Rom. 13.1 . (c) Rom. 13.5 . (d) 1. Pet. 2.13.14 . (e) Tit. 3.2 . (f) Ephes . 6.5 . Col. 3.22 . (g) 1. Tim. 6.1 . (h) Matt. 22.21 . 3. All consultations , exhortatiōs & threats . 4. All cases and scruple of conscien● . The differēce between a iust Catholike , and a iust Protestant . The fourth daughter or progeny of the priuate spirit , which is predestination to sinne , and damnatiō . Absur●●ies which follow vpon it in respect of man. 1. Of Politicians and Atheists . Aug. epist. 48 2. Of desperate men . Aug. de bono perseuerant . cap. 15. Caesar . li. 1. c. 27. Aug. lib. 2 de animabus c. 11. Aug. de vera Relig. c. 14. Scotus 1. demonst . 39. Absurdities which follow vpon this doctrine of Predestination . 1. That it makes God the authour of sinne . Aug. haeres . 46. Epiph. hom . 66. Euseb . lib. 5. cap. 19. Becanus opus . theol . com . 1 . ●ract . de pr●destin . pag 2. de authore pec cati pag 99. de Apho●ism Caluinist ●rū pag. 249. & ● de diff●rentia inter Caluinistas , P●lagianos & Caholi●os . Smith . collat . c. 1. de Deo. 2. That it makes God a sinner . Rom. 3.8 . 3. That it makes God alone , the only sinner . Calu. 3. Inst . 14.17 . Calu. 3. Inst . 23.8 . Zuing. ser● . de prouid . Aug. de vera Relig. c. 14. 4. That it makes God a great lyer and dissembler . (a) Psalm . 5.5 . (b) Psalm . 44 8. (c) Zach. 8.17 . (d) Sap. 14.9 . (e) 3. Reg. 11 6. (f) 2. Reg. 11 27. (g) Caluin . de pr●destin . pag. 727. (h) 1. Instit. 191. in Genes . 3.1 . (i) Depraedest pag. 726. (k) Beza respons . ad Acta colleq . Mon●is● . p●g . 51. (l) Depraedest . cont . 〈◊〉 . vol. 1. Theol pag. 3.7.6 (m) Mart. in Sam. 1.4 fol. 32. (n) ●erk . in Cred. pag. 7.33 . of predestination p. 1.2.7 . (o) Bucan . Instit . theol . loco 14. pag. 145. (p) Isa 53 9. (q) Sap 3.5 . (r) 1. Prou. 14.22 . (s) 1. Iohn . 3 8. (t) Eccl. 15.21 . (u) Ierem. 32.35 . (x) Iac. 1.13 (y) 1. Cor. 10.13 . (z) Calu. 1. Instit . 17.11 . & 18.1 . in Rom 9.18 . de praedest . 7.2.7.7.3.9.7.4.6 . (a) 1. Instit. 14.17 . (b) 3. Instit . 23.1 . (c) De Praedest . p. 7.2.6 . (d) pag. 7.2.8 (e) Luth. de seruo arbitrio fol. 459. & fol. 433. (f) Melanct. in Rom. 8. de praedest . (g) Beza de praedest . contra Castal . pag. 3.9.9 . in Rom. 9.18 . (h) Sanct. de excec . quaest . 1. pag. 204. (i) De praedest●nat . Sanct. cap. 5. pag. 3.2.6 . (k) De exce●at . quaest . 5. pag. 211. (l) ●●b . 5. de nati● . Dei c. 2. pag. 5.6.8 . (m) de exce●at . quaest . 4. pag. 208. (n) In Iud. cap 3. fol. 52. (o) In Rom. 1. fol. 34.37 . & in Rom. 9. pag. 6.3 . (p) Ezech. 33 11. (q) 2. Pet. 3.9 . (r) Matt. 18.14 . (s) 1. Tim. 2 4. (t) Exod. 20.3 . (u) Ezech. 18 30. (x) Prou. 1.24 . (z) Math. 23 37. (a) Mat. 11.28 . (b) Calu. 3. Instit . 3.21.3 . Inst . 23.2 . (c) Calu. Instit . 24.12 . (d) 3. Instit. 24.17 . (d) Beza colloq . Montisb . pag. 418. (e) Piscator apud Vorstiū parasceue ad collat . pag. 8. (f) Beza 2. part . respons . ad act . Mont. pag. 226. (g) De praedest . contra Castal . pag. 3●6 . (h) Apud Schusselb . Theol. Cal. art . 8. p 71. (i) Ad Cal. Andr. vol. 3. theol . pag. 125. (k) Colloq . Montisb . pag. (l) Zanct. suppl . ad Senat. Argentin . col . 57. De praedest . c. 4. col . 317. & 295. (m) Perk. of predest . col . 139. Smith . Coll. lib. 1. cap. 6. art . 1. ad art . 24. 4 That it makes God a most cruell tyrant . More seuere in his lawes then Draco Agellio lib. 2. cap. 18. More cruell then any Tyrant . (a) Math. 2.16.14.9 . Act. 12.1.7 . Iud. 1.7 . Iud. 9.5 . Es●her 3.6 . Fulg●s . lib. 10 cap. 11. & Theatrum vitae humanae . Suet. Ner. Suet. Cal. Suet. Tiber. Marfil . Ficinus in epist. lib. 2. Agath . lib. 4. Seneca lib de clement . ad N●ronem . (a) Psal . 144 (b) ●uc 1.50 (c) S●p 15.1 (d) Eccles . 16 30. 5. That it makes God a Diuell . Because it makes God a tempter vnto sinne . (a) Matth. 4.3 . (b) 1. Cor. 7.5 . (c) Act. 5.3 . 7. It makes him the sower of the tares of sin . Math. 13.25 Calu. 1. Inst. 18 1. 1. Inst 14.2 . 4. Inst . 14.2 . 3. It makes God the authour of sin . 1. Ioan. 3.8 . Ioan. 8.44 . Calu. 3. Inst. 23.4 . & 7. Luth. de seruo arbitrio . Calu. serm . de prouid . c. 6 Zuing. in ep . This doctrine condemned by Protestants . Castal . de pradestinat . Vermilius in lib. 3. Reg. cap. 6. Fcuardentius lib. 2. de Theomachia Calumistica cap. 12. Tilmannus Heshusius lib. aliquot errorū Caluini . Grauerus absurda absurdorum . Obseruations vpō the former Protestant doctrine . Psalm . 13.1 . Calu. 3. Inst. 24.13 . The difference of the Protestant God from the Catholicke God. In ordaining sinne . In compelling to sin . In necessitating to sin . In being authour of sin . In predistination to damnation . In ordaining the end of sinne In denying meanes to be saued . In not remitting of sinne . In being sinnefull . Protestant positions which oppose Fayth , Hope , and Charity . (a) Luth. de libertate tom . 2. fol. 4. & in Gal. 2. tom . 5 fol. 305. Calu. in Gal. 2.16 . & in Act. 13.39 . Beza in Rom 3.20 . VVhit . ad rat . 1. Camp. pag. 7. Perkins in Catechis . tom . 1. Col 487. (b) Confess . August . edita VVittemb . ann . 1531. art . 4. Calu. 3. Inst. 11.19 . & 3. Inst. 14.16 . & 17. Et in Antid . Concil . Trid. sess . 6. ad cap. 10.13.14 . ad Canon . 14.15 . & 16. & 4. Inst . 2.16 . VVhita . ad rat . 8. Camp. pag. 3. (c) Calu. de praedest . pag. 695. & 7.3 . & in Antid . Concil . sess . 6. Canon . 17. pag. 291. Zanct. de perfect . Sanctorum cap 2. tom . 7. col . 113. & collat . 128. VVhitak . contro . 2. quaest . 1. cap. 8. pag. 434. Perkins de dissertion . tom . 1. c●l . 1026. (d) Calu. in Ioan. 20.28 . in Matth. 13.20 . in Luc. 17.13 . Instit. c. 2. §. 21. Beza in Ioan. 6.37 . in Colloq . Montisb . pag. 380. VVhitak . lib. 8. contra Duraeū sect . 48. & contro . 2. quaest . 5. cap. 7. pag. 515. Perkins in Galat. 1. tom . 2. col . 51. Zanct. de perseu . tom . 7. col . 128. & in sua confess . cap. 17. sect . 4. tom . 8. col . 522. (e) Luther . in Gal. 2. tom . 5. fol. 229. In cap. 5. fol. 420. & in cap. 8. Isa . tom . 4 fol. 53. Calu. in Ioan. 5.29 . & 3. Inst . cap. 4. §. 28. Beza . in epist . dedic . respons . ad Castal . vol. 1. Theol pag. 427. & 457. Zanct. de persen . Sanct. quaest . 1. cap. 2. tom . 7. col . 360 VVotton . in respons . ad art . papisticos pag. 92. Abbot in Diatrib . Thomsoni cap. 20. p· 189 (f) Of which see the first part and last Chapter . (g) Luth. tom . 1. in disp . fol. 390. & tom . 2 de ration . confitendi fol. 26. de captiuit Babil . fol. 80. In confut . Latomi fol. 220. & tom . 5. in Gal. 1. fol. 227. in cap. 2. fol. 231. Ibid. de bonis operibus fol. 58 Calu. de lib. arbit . lib. 1. pag. 141 & 3. Inst . cap. 17. §. 1. Beza in confess . cap. 4. sect 19. & lib quaest . & resp . p. 670. Tindal . apud Fox . in Act. p. 1139. VVitak . de pecc . orig . l. 2. c. 3. p. 656 (h) Confess . Gallic . art . 18. Calu. in Rom. 6.3 . in Gal. 3.6 . in confess . fidei pag. 108. Hūfred . ad ration . 2. Camp. pag. 142. Beza in confess . c. 4. §. 8. (i) Apolog. Angl. in Syntag. confess . pag. 123. Luth. de libert . Christian. tom . 2. fol. 4. & in 3. Gal tom . 5. fol. 329. Calu. in Antid . Concil . sess . 10. cap. 12. pag. 284. & lib. 1. de libero arbitrio pag. 148. Beza in Luc. 18.22 . & in Rom. 10.6 . Perkins de Baptis . tom . 1. col . 833. (k) Luth. in 1. Pet. cap. 2. tom . 5. fol. 464. & in act . VVormat . tom . 2. fol. 172. Calu. i● Iacob . 4.32 . Beza in confess . cap. 7. §. 9. VVhitak . contro . 4. quaest . 7. cap. 1. pag. 715. & lib. 8. contra Duraeum sect . 103. (l) Calu. 4. Inst. cap. 15. §. 3. Perkins in serie causarum c. 33. tom . 1. Col. 77. Beza lib quaest . & respon . vol. 3. pag. 344. VVhitak . lib. 8. contra Duraeum sect . 101. (m) Luth. de seruo arbitrio tomo 2. folio 460. Calu. 2. Inst. cap. 3. §. 10. & 2. Instit. cap. 3. §. 5. Zuing. de prudentia cap. 6. tom . 2. fol. (n) Zuing. in Elench . temo 1. folio 36. Calu. 3. Inst. cap. 23. §. 4. & 8. & de praedestinatione pag. 704. Beza in cap. 22. Luc. v. 22. & de praedest . cont . Castal . pag. 340. & 360. & in Colloq Montish p 431 Mart. in Rom 9. pag. 397. & in lo i● cō . class . 3. cap. 1. §. 34. Zanct. de praedest . cap. 3. tom . 7. col . 193. cap. 4. col 318 . ●iscat . in thes . lib. 2. loco 12 pag. 143. Perkins de praedest . tom . 1. col . 117. & in serie causarum cap. 52. & in cap. 1. Apocal. tom . 2. The beliefe of the articles of the Creed oppugned by historicall , generall , & speciall Fayth . (a) Kenn ▪ in locis tit . de argument . tomo 2. pag. 95. Hun de iustifi●at . p. 220. Zuing. in Iacob . 2. v. eit . tomo 4. Calu. 3. c. 2. §. 1.9.10 . Inst . 3. c. 2. § 28.29 . Beza in Iac. 2.14 . Mart. in locis class . 3. c. 3. §. 23. VVhitak . l. 1. contra Duraeū §. 13. Pareus lib. 4. de iustifi●●t . c. pag. ●157 . The Creed oppugned by the priuate spirit . Erasm . innuit , Lutherus irruit : Erasmus paritoua , Lutherus excludit pullos : Erasmus dubitat , Lutherus abnegat . Erasmus praefat . in Paraphras . Caluinus 2. Iust. 16 : 18 : Canis . praefation . corruptelis de verbo Dei. Beza . Apolog. 2. ad Zanct. pag. 385. Eras . lect . 5. in Symb. Calu. 4. Inst. 1.3 . Zuing. serm . de Symb. Luth. Smyb . Germanico . Beza praefat . in nouum testam . 1565. The particuler articles of the creed oppugned . Aug. sermone 115. Kellis . part . 2. reform . exam . 1. Of God the Father : Calu. in actis Serueti . Beza confess . Geneu . c. 1. Confess . Aug. impressa anno 1585. Stegius apud Genebrard . l. contra Steg . pag. 108. Luth. vt de e● Zuing. tomo 2. ad confess . Luth. f. 47● . Melanct. locis editis anno 1545. & vt obijcit ei Stancarus l. 4. de Trin. Sanctius de tribus Eleur . Cap. 9. §. 5 Luth. lib. de Concil part . 2. pag 276. Melanct locis editis anno 1545. f. 43. Formula concordiae anno 1580. Tigur . in ep . ad Polonos anno 1560. Iuel . against Harding . art . 17. Luth. vt Zuing. tom . 2 respons . ad cōfess . Luth. f. 47.4 . Luth. postil . maiori enarrat . Euangelij Trinitatis . Luth. en●hir . precum anno 1543. Athan. lib. de vnitate Dei. Cypr. lib. de vnitate Eccl. Fulg. respons . ad Arian . 1. Ioan. 5.7 . (a) Hunnius ▪ Caluin . Iudaizans . Antipareus , Antipareus alter (b) Dan. lib. contra Genebrardum . Calu. tractat . Theolog. (a) Beza col-Montisb . pag. 27. resp . ad acta Torgens . vol. 3 p. 60. l. 9. vol. 1. pag. 656. Martyr . cont . Gardin . resp . ad obiect . 11. col . 199.189 Dialog . col . 6. in 1. Cor. 11 pag. 159. Piscator the●ibus loco 2. p. 78. Sadelius de Sacrament . māduc . p. 300 Danaeus citatus ab And. colloq . Mōtis . pag. 178. ex suo dialogo . Tilenus suo Syntagmat . cap. 7. p. 75. Anton. de Dominis l. 5. de republ . cap. 6. num . 178. Reinolds Conference p. 68. (b) VVhitak . in his answere to ● . Reinolds Refutation p. 179. & 180. Calu. Catech. & 3. Inst . 23 2. & in Isa . 23. Ber. lib. 2. c●̄tra Hessus . Luc. 1.37 . The second article of the Creation oppugned ▪ Calu. lib. cont . Valent. Gentilem refut . 10. in Genes . 14.18 . Harmonia in Matth. 21.44 . & Matth. 26.64 . in Marc. 16.19 . Kellis . exemē part . 2. art . 2 Cred. The third article of the Diuinity of Christ oppugned . Luth lib. con . Ia● . Lat●m . Calu. ep . 2. ad Polonos anno 156● . & lib. cont . Valent. Gentilem . Bez. lib. contra Hessus . VVhita . resp . ad 3. ration . Camp. Caluinus 1. Inst. 3 in vlt Calu. 1. Inst. 31.9 & 24. The fourth article of Christs humanity oppugned . Brentius lib. de maiestate carnis Christ. Molin . 3. par Harmoniae . Bu●er . dial . de corpor . Christ. Calu. harm . in Matth. 2. Beza contra Smidelin . VVillet synop . controu . 1. q. 1. in appendi-Martyr . in Rom. 4. The fifth article of Christs passion oppugned . The sixth article of Christs descension and Resurrectiō oppugned . (a) Calu. Psycopanichia (b) Beza lib. cont . Brent . (c) Luth. ser . de Lazaro tom . 7. folio 267. (d) Bucer . ex Conrado lib. 1 art . 217. (e) Brent . apud Hospin . part . 2. folio 308. anno 1562. (f) Lohec . disp . 6. pag. 133. (g) Perk. in Apocal. 2. to . 2. col 90. (h) VVillet . in synopsi . (i) Calu. 2. Inst. 16.9 . Bulling . in 2. Act. VVittem-instruction . anno 1521. Zuing. & alij apud Busaeum thesibus ●oll . anno 1586. Beza in cap. 2 annotat . Buc. in Psal . 10. & in Matth. 17. Luth. tom . 3. VVittemb . an . 1553. sup . Ps . 16 p. 279. Gerla●h . cont . Busaeum apud . Cal. lib. 3. c. 13. Beza in Act. 2. Cal. 2. Inst. 16.8 . Beza in 1. Cor. 15. Brentius Kēnit . &c. supra in the fourth article . Andr. Iu. lib. Nullus & Nemo . The seauēth article of Christs Ascension oppugned . Calu. 2. Inst . 14.5 . & alibi supra . The eight article of Christs iudging the quicke and the dead , oppugned . The ninth article of the holy Ghost , and Catholike Church oppugned . Geneuenses Clypeo fidei f. 376. The tenth article of communiō of Saints , & forgiuenesse of sinnes , oppugned . The eleuēth article of the Resurrection oppugned . The twelft article of life euerlasting oppugned . Luth. tom . 2. VVitemb . an . 1562. p. 51. Luth. tom . 2. pag. 44. & 45. Luth. colloq . mensal . c. 49. Calu. in Ecclesiast . Calu. 3. Inst . 20.10.24 . Calu. 3. Inst. 25.6 . The petitions of the Pater noster & all prayer oppugned . The seauen petition of the Pater Noster . All prayer made needlesse and fruitlesse by this doctrine . All prayers are sinnes . See aboue in the first subdiuision . Luth postil . in Domin . 5. post Pasca fol. 263. Luth serm . de Ascense . Illyr . Claue Scripturae part . 2. Smith c●llat . cap. 1. art . 13 Rich●om . idolitria Hugonotica l. 2. c. 28. pag 177. & cap. 29 p. 182. The Pater noster oppugned by the Protestant doctrine . The first petition The second petition . The third Petition . The fourth petition . The fifth Petition . The sixth petition . The seauēth petition . The Protestāt doctrin ouerthroweth the ten Commandements . The prayse of lawes . Aristot. 3. Polit. Cicero . 2. de natura Deor. Plato lib. 4. de Legibus . The diuersity of lawes . The diuisiō of the ten commandments . (a) Luth. de saetul potesta . apud Collium tom . 1. lib. 7. art . 1. Delibertate Christiana tom . 2. fol. 3. De votis fol. 270. & in 1. Pet. 2. som. 2 fol 3. (b) Luth. lib. contra Regem Angliae tom . 2. fol. 346. De capt . Babyl . fol. 77. (c) Cal. 4. Inst 10.7 . & 8. In 4. Iac. 12. Confess . Basil art . 10. (d) Luth. in 1. Pet. 2. to . 5. fol. 464. de bonis operibus fol. 577. lib. de confess . ad Frācis . Act. VVormatien . tom . 2. fol. 172. Deseruo arbitr . tom . 2. fol. 431. Calu. in 4. Iacob . 21. Refut . Catelin . pag. 384. De necessitate reform . Eccles . pag. 58. Confess . Fidei pag. 209. Beza confess . cap. 7. sect . 9. Mart. locis class . 4. cap. 4. §. 5. Danaeus contro . 3. p. 509. contr . 5. pag. 1125. VVhitak . co●ci . 4. quaest . 7. c. 1. pag. 715. Perk. anatomy of conscience tom . 1. pag. 1215. hic case● of conscience cap 3. col . 1033. in Gal. 5. pag. 258. (e) Confess . August . cap. 6. Apolog. confess . cap. de impletione legis . Apolog. Anglic. in Syntagmat . confess . p. 123. Luth. de libert . Christiana tom . 2. fol. 4. Melanct. apud Luth. tom . 2. fol. 507. Calu. antidot . sess . 10.12 . pag. 284. lib. de libero arbit . pag. 248. In Lucam 10.26 . In Act. 15.10 . Beza in Luc. 18.22 . in Rom. 10.6 . Danaeus controu . de Baptism . cap. 15. pag. 389 974 VVhita . 1. lib. cont . Duraeum sect . 6. controu . 2. q. 6. c. 3. pag. 563. Perkins de Baptism . tomo 1 . ●●l . 833. Scharp . controu . 12. de iustific . p. 180. Adam Francis . margar . theol . loc . 5. p. 52. (g) Luth. ser . de Moyse . M●l . in locis apud Fabritium in harmonia confess . August . art . 20. p. 364. Zuing. in explanat . art . 16 Mart. in locis class . 2. c. 15. §. 22. Cal. 2. Inst. c. 7. §. 14. & in refut . Serueti pag. 652 Beza in 1. Ioan. 5.3 . & in c. 2. v 7. Tindal . apud Foxum in actis edit . 1610 pag. 1140. Bucan loco 29 Bulling . Decade . 5. ser . 8. (g) Luth. in cap. 2. ad Gal. tom . 5. fol. 311. Cal. in Matt. 19.17 . & 3. Inst . cap. 17. §. 7. & in Antid . Concil . sess . 6. pag. 218. in Act. 15.10 . & in Matth. 9.10 . Perk. in casibus conscient . cap. 7. col . 1335. Piscat . loco 17. pag. 283. Paraeus lib. 4. de iustificat . cap 7. pag. 1031. Mart. in 1. Cor. 10.12 . & in 1. Cor. 7.19 . (h) Confess . Aug. cap. debonis operibus . Confess . Scot. art . 15. Confess . Bohem. art . 7. Luth. in 3. Gal. tom . 5. fol. 343. & in 4. Gal. tom . 5. cit . fol. 393. Calu. in Rom. 43.8 . & 3. Instit. cap. 17. §. 3. & 13. & in Antid . Concil . sess . 6. cap. 12. pag. 283. In act . 15.10 . In Gal. 3.10.12 . Brent . Homil. 1. in Dom. 13. post Trinit . pag. 777. Par. lib. 4. de iustif . cap. 11. p. 1076. Danaeus contro . 5. pag. 973. (i) Calu. in Matth. 6.10 . Perk. in 3. Gal. col . 135. Absurdities which follow vpon the impossibility of keeping Gods commādments . Vpon the no● obliging of laws in conscience . Vpon good workes being sinnes . Vpon only fayth iustifying . Vpon want of Free-will Vpon absolute predestination to damnation . The Protestant doctrine doth nourish vices . Of slouth . (a) Eccl 7.33 Bern. de considerat . lib. 2. Chrisost . lib. de lapsu . Of Lust . (a) Sap. 4.1 . (b) Eccl. 26.20 . (c) Gal. 5.22 23. (d) Apoc. 14.4 . Cyp. lib. de 12. abusibus . Boetius de scholast . disciplina . Luth serm . de Matrimonio tom . 5. Of cruelty . Of Pride . (a) Prou. 8.13 . (b) Prou. 16.5 . Eccles . 10.14 15. Greg in Moralibus . August . in Epistolis . Luth. tom . 5. mar . in 1. Pet. 1. Zuing. tom . 1. actis disput . Tigu● apud K●l●if . ex●m . part . ● . exam 13 cap 8. & Calu. Turcis . lib. 3. cap. 1. The confessed bad life of the Protestant cōmon people in Germany . (a) Luth. postill . super Dom. 1. Aduentus . (b) Luther . Dom. 26 post Pentec●st . Luth. serm . c●nniual . Ger fol. 55. Luth. in Ioan 15. tom . 4. Germ. VVitt. fol. 220. siue tom . 7. Ger. Ien. fol. 162. b. §. 3. Domestica Postilla Norinberg . concion . 8. Dom. S. Trinit . fol. 79. §. 2. aut 87. §. 3. Tom. 2. Ger. Ien. in sentēt . de vtraque parte f. 103. & tom . 7. Germ. VVitt. fol. 362. b. §. 3. Melanct in c. 6. Matth. Eras . Sar. l. de disciplina Islebiae edit . apud Vrban . Ga●besch . f. 39. Smid in ● . sua de Planetis concione f. 1●1 . Smidel . in 4. Concion . de Planet . f. 141 Ioan. Brent . ad 3. Matth. Spang . in Enarrat . Beneficiorū Dei. Calu. Concio . 10. gallic . scripta in ep ▪ ad Eph. Musculus loc . com . cap. de Decal . expla . 3 praecepti p. 62. And. Mus . Dominic . 1. Aduentus . Idem lib. de abusu Sacrame● . cap. 14 Buc. his scrip . Anglican . pag 24. med . lib. 7. de regno Chri●ti cap. 4. Paul. Eber. praefat . Comment . Philip. in ep . ad Cor. Iacob . And ▪ concion . 4 ▪ in 21. c. 4. Lucae Sim. Vien serm . Dom. 13. Trinit . Erasm . epist . ad Vul●●●ium Neo●omi●um VVitt. anno 1529. Erasm . ●p ad fratres infer . Germ. B●ned . Morgenste●●● . de Eccle. p. 221. In England . M. Richard Geffrey in his sermon preached at Pauls Crosse 7. Oct. an . 1604. p. 31. Stubs in his motiues to good workes p●inted anno 1596. in his epistle dedicatory to the Maior of Lōdon . Pag 44.45 . The Puritans in their mild Defence alleadged in M. ●owels booke of thinges indifferent pag. 136. The confessed bad life of the Protestant ministery . Vide Apol. prot . pag 593 Musc . de locis commun . cap. de Ministris verbi . Dei. p. 180. VVigand . de bonis & malis Germaniae . Paul. Eber. praefat comment . Philip. ad Corinth . The confessed bad life of the first founders of Protestant Religion . Vlenberg vita Lutheri anno 1524. pag. 202. Of Luther . (a) Simon Vion vpon the Catalogue of Doctours englished , pag. 180. Luch in Gal. 1.14 . f. 3● . englished . (b) Luth. sup . fol. 35. (c) Luth. sup fol. 35. His Lust . (d) Luth. in Prou. 31.10 . (e) Luth. to . 5. VVitt. ser . de Ma●rim . f. 119.2 . vers . finem . & colloq . mensal . Germ. cap de Matrim . & tom . 2. VVittem . fol. 328. (f) Luth. to . 1. Epist. latinar . fol. 134 ad Philippum . (g) Luth. sup . fol. 345. (h) Zozem . hist. 6.3 . Code● lib. 1. de Episc . & Cleric . (i) Sleidan . comment . lib 5. an . 1525. fol. 65. English . Fulk . answer to P. Frarines declam p. 32. Luth. Colloq . latin . tom . 2. de Coniug . Melanct. epist ad Ioan. Camer . Erasmus epist. ad Manch . Vlman . Iustus Baron . lib. de praescriptionibus apud Kellis . ●●men . part . 2. cap. 10 pag. 715. (a) Luth. Colloq . Isleb . de creat . fol. 70. a. §. 5. (b) Ib. fol. 59 §. 5. (c) Tom 1. ep . lat . ●en . fol. 334. (d) Colloq . Isleb . de Coniug fol. 411. (e) Lab de vita coniuga . (f) Praefat. ●n Oecumenium Menij . tom . 4. Ger. fol. 463. (g) Postilla VVatem . in Euang. explicat . de diuite epulo●● & Lazaro f. 92. a. §. 2. (h) Tom. 2. Germ. Ien. ep . ad Baron . de Ster●●gh . fol. 459. (i) Tom. 4. Germ. Ien. de Bello ant● t●● cico f. 435. (k) In Postil . VVitt. f. 62. (l) Tom. 2. Ger. VVitt. de Orat. con . Turcas . fol. 475. (m) Tom. 4. Germ. VVitt. comment . in Matth. 5. fol. 37. (n) Tom. 1. Germ. VVitt. in Comment . Gal. 2. fol. 47. b. (o) Ibid. fol. 92. §. 3. (p) Tom. 1. Germ. VVit. fol. 361. & Tom. 1. lat . Ie● . fol. 47. b. (q) Com. in Psal . 5. to . 3. VVitt. f. 171. b. §. 5. & to . 3. Ger. VVitt. fol. 143. a. §. 5. (r) Tom. 1. Germ. VVitt. cōment . Gal. 3. fol. 147. vel 155. (s) Tom. Ger VVitt. cōmen . Exod. 20. f. 212. (t) Tom. 1. Germ. VVitt. comm . in Gal. 5. fol 173. (u) Comm. in Gal. 4. fol. 215. a. (w) Coment in Ioan. 17. tom . 4. Germ. f. 305. a. §. 5 (x) Epist . ad Philip. tom . 1. epist. Ien. edit f. 345. (y) De capt . Pabil tom . 2. lat VVitt. fol. 72. (z) Colloq . Isl●b . titulo de tentation . f. 291. b. §. 3. Sciop . Eccles . cap. 2.11 . &c Luth con . art . Louan . thes . 27. tom . 2. f. 505. ep . ad Ia● . presbit . & tom . 7. VVittenb . fol. 381.382 . Zuing. tom . 2 resp . ad confes Luth. f. 478. Tigur . confes . Germ. Tig. an . 1544. f. 3 (a) Answer to the defence of the censure attributed to Fulke p. 155. (b) Pag. 101 (c) Tigur . resp ad par● . confess . Luth. Hospin . histo . Sacram. part . 2. fol. 188. His Pride . (d) Oecolamp . confess . ad resp . Luth. Conrad Reg. l. cont . Ioan ▪ Hosium de Coena . Luth. locis Comm● class . 4. fol. 53. Luth. lib. ad Ducem Georgium , & in colloq lat●n . cap. de consolation . & ad cap. 1. ad Gal. tom . 5. VVitt. f. 290 b. Luth. tom . 7. in serm . de euersion . Hierusalem . fol. 271. a. Luth. loc . com class . 2. pag. 83. Calu. apud Schilleb lib. 1 theolog . Calu. fol. 126. Sleid. lib. 3. anno 1524. folio 2229. english . & l. 2. an . 1520. fol. 22. a. med Zuingl●us . Caluin . Conrad . Schusse● . theol . Calumist . lib. 2. fol. 72. a. cir●a mod . Beza . Hessus . lib. verae & sanae Confess . S●huss . supra lib. 1. fol. 93. a initio . Iacobus Andreas . Hospin . hist. sacram . part . 2. fol. 380. & 389. Seleucerus , Andreas , Musculus . Protest . Apology pag. 416.58.411.595 . Catholikes liues commended . Hollius . Chro edit . last , part . 1. pag. 100. line 31. Stow Annals pag. 64 printed an . 1592. Godw. in the life of Austine pag. 117. &c. Fox Acts Mō . pag. 117. an . 1576. Tind . Reuelation of Antichrist . Melā . Apolog. Confess . Aug. VVittomb . an . 1573 f. 221. Pant. Chron. pag. 95. Fox act . Mon. p. 70. next after an . 1216. Hackl . in his booke of nauigations 2. par 2. volum . p. 81. (a) Comment . rerum in Oriente gestarū fol. 2. (b) Pag. 36. (c) Fol 9. (d) Fol. 14. Abraham Hartwell his discouery of Congo printed ann . 1597. l. 2. cap. 3. Godw. Catalogue of Bish●ps . Stubs his motiues to good workes p. 44.45 . Syr Edward Sands in his Relation of the Religion vsed in the VVest partes of the world , sect . 48. paulo post initium . (a) Sect. 6. (b) Sect. 27. (c) Sect. 42. Stubbs his motiues to good workes printed 1596 pag. 43. Deut. 32.31 . The Protest . priuate spirits doctrin compared with the Catholike doctrine & shewed . 1. That theirs derogateth from the blessed Trinity . 2. Frō Gods mercy . 3. From Gods goodnesse . 4. Frō Gods Iustice . 5. Frō Gods omnipotency . That the Protestant doctrine doth derogate from Christ . 1. From his beatitude . 2. From his knowledge ▪ 3 From his supremacy , and power . 4. From his authority in making lawes . 4. From his sanctity . 6. From his redemption of mankind 7. From his merit and satisfactiō . 8. From his corporall passion . 9. From the certainty of his saluatiō . 10. From his descending to hell . 11. From his Resurrectiō and ascension . 12. From his adoration and intercession . (a) Marc. 10 47. Mat. 15.22 . & 20.31 (b) Mat. 2.11 (c) Mat. 28.9 . That the priuate spirits doctrin doth derogate from Saints and Angells . 1. Their Beatitude . (a) ●uth . Posti● . Domini● . 2. post . Trin fol. 286. & tom . 6. in 25. Gen f. 322. tom . 4. in 9. Eccl. c. 36. & 37. & in 2. Ioan. Calu. in 2. Pet. 2.4 . in Math. 22.23 . in Math. 27.43 . in Luc. 16.12 . 3. Inst. 25.6 . Bu●an . loc 39 p. 44● . Dan. contro . 7. p. 1265. 2. Their sanctity . (b) Calu. in Coloss . 1.10 . 3. I●st . 14.16 . & 17.9 . Conc. 16. in Iob. pag. 68. 3. Their power . (c) Beza in 1. Cor. 16. Vrsin . Catech. q. 99 p 944. Piscat . thes●l . 2. pag. 373. Perk. in 3. Gal. 3. 4. Their difference of glory . 5. Their esteeme with God. 6. Their knowledge of vs. 7. Their charity to vs. 8. Their honour by vs. Luth Postil . in festo S. Ioan . f. 378. & Ferijs eiusdē f. 9. die Epip . fol. 138. Calu. in 4. Ioan. 10. 9. Their custody and help of vs. That the priuate spirit doth tak from the word of God. 1. All the vnwritten word . 2 ▪ 21 parts of the written word . 3. The true translation . 4. The certainty of the sense . 5. The integrity of faith . 6. The authority to iudge of it . The priuate spirit derogates from the Church of God. 1. The authority . 2. The visibility . 3. The markes . 4. The continuance . 5. The beauty & magnificence . 6. The purity & incorruption of doctrine . The priuate spirit derogates from the Sacraments . 1 The number . 2 The effect of Baptism ▪ 3. The substance of the Eucharist . The priuate spirit doth derogate from Fayth . 1 The vnity of it . 2. The antiquity of it . 3. The grounds of it . 4. The meanes of it . 5. The purity of it . The priuate spirit derogates from man. 1. A freewil 2. All infused habits . 3. All inherent iustice . 4 Alinward purity . 5. All necessity or possibility of good works 6. All benefit of prayer 7. All care and labour for his saluation . The priuate spirit takes from sinne . 1. All difference of mortall and veniall . 2. All possibility to be auoided . 3 ▪ All imputation to punishmēt in some persons . The priuate spirit doth derogate from good workes in generall . 1. Their merit . The priuate spirit doth derogate from heauē 1. The reward of glory . 2. The difference of glory . They take away from hell . 1. The difference of place . (a) Calu. in Matth. 3.12 . Danaeus controu . 4 §. 11. pag. 210. Vorst . in Anti-bellar . pag. 269. Perk. vpon 2 Apoc. pag. 9. Lobec . disp . 6. pag. 133. 3. The suffering of the soules . 4. The local place of hell 5. All feare of sinne for hell . 2. The fire of hell . (b) Luth. ser . de diuit & paup . tom . 7. fol. 267. in cap. 9. Eccles . tom . 4. fol. 38. Postil ●● Domin . 4. post . Tri●it . fol. 286. Bucer . & Catheis . Hedalb . apud Schusselb . theol . Calu art . 27. fol. 145. Brent . apud Hosp . part . 2. anno 1562. fol. 308. & 230. & apud Bullinger . Lobec . disp . 6 p. 133. Perk. in c. 2. Apoc. col . 90. Tylenus ●yntag . c. 6. p. 69. Cal. Inst. 16.6 . (c) Luth. in 15. Gen. tom . 6. f. 321. serm . de diuit . & Lazar● tom . 7. f. 268. Postil . in Domin . 2. post . Trin f. 268. in 2. c. Ioan. f. 418. Calu. 4. Inst. 25.6 . in 2. Pet. 2.4 . Scult●t . 1. part . medul . in Tertul. cap. 42. pag. 305. Notes for div A12062-e89080 The true efffect of the working of the spirit of God declared . By the similitude of a naturall body . 1. Cor. 12.12 Rom. 12.4 ▪ The spirit giues to euery one his proper operation . Rom. 12.5 . Ephes . 4.7 . Rom. 12.3 . Rom. 12.6 . 1. Cor. 7.20 . Ephes . 4.11 . 1. Cor ▪ 12.21 ● . Cor. 12.21 The differēt manner of the spirits operations in catholiks from Protestants . In the persons who haue authority . In the articles of faith of which exposition is giuen . Vincent . Lyr. cap. 27. Cap. 28. In the points of faith expoūded . Vincent . Lyr. In the meanes or directions by which it is expounded . In the infallibility or certainty of their exposition . In the groūding ones fayth vpon this exposition . Protestants obiections , for their priuate spirits authority , answered (a) Rom. 12.6 . 1. Cor. 12.11.1.14.14 (b) 1. Cor. 14 24. Vers . 26. Vers . 29. Vers . 31. Guifts extraordinary and gratis giuen . Not giuen euery one to all persōs Rom. 12.3 . Rom. 12.6 . Ephes 4.11 . 1. Cor. 12.28 Giuen only with subord●nation to the spirit of the Church and Superiours . 1. Cor. 14.32 1. Cor. 14.23 Marc. 3.26 . 1. Cor. 12.11 ●uifts ex●raordinary giuen not generally to all . Guifts alike are not giuen to all , but are to be vsed by all as they are giuen . Rom. 12.3 . Ephes . 4.7 . By Episcopall & Diaconical function . Rom. 12.7.8 1. Cor. 7.20 . Hier. contra Vigilan . Non est cuiusuis hominis aureos nūmos & scripturas probare , vina gustar● . & Prophetas & Apostolos intelligere . 1. Cor. 12.28 . Ephes . 4.11 . S. Paul. 1. Cor. 14. is vnderstood , not of ordinary guifts to expound Scripture . Nor of the publike seruice of the Church . But of extraordinary guifts gratis giuen for languages ▪ &c. Vers . 40. Vers . 23. Iustin . Apol. 2. ad Anton. in fine . Tertul. Apologet . cap. 39. The manner of the Christiās assemblies in the first age of the Church (a) Vers . 22. (b) Vers . 3. (c) Vers . 24. & 25. (d) Vers . 29. (e) Vers . 33. (f) Isa . 54.13 (g) Ioan. 6 , 45. (i) 1. Thes . 4 (k) Hier. 31.33 . (l) Idem . v. 34. (m) Ioan. 7.17 . (n) Ioan. 10 , 27. (o) 1. Ioan. 2.27 . Grace to be saued , not to interpret scripture . Not all who haue Fayth , haue the guift of interpreting scripture . (a) Heb. 5.12 1. Cor. 3.2 . (b) 1. Cor. 3.1 . (c) 1. Cor. 14 38. (d) 1. Thes . 3.10 . (e) Epes . 1.13.14 . (f) 1. Cor. 3.16 . (g) 1. Cor. 14 37. (h) Hebr. 5.14 . (i) 1. Cor. 12 10. (k) 1. Cor. 14 (l) Act. 20.28 . (m) 1. Pet. 5.1 . (n) ● Tit. 2.15 . (o) Tit. 1.12 . (p) 1. Tim. 1.3 . (q) 2. Cor. 10. v. 5.6.8 . (a) 1. Ioan. ● . ● . (b) 1. Thes . 5 20. Pastours , not the cōmon people are to try spirits . How spirituall men iudge of spiritual things (a) Hebr. ●5 . 23 . & 14. Only spirituall men iudge of spiritual things and some of one , some of another spiritual affaire . (b) 1. Cor. 12. vers . 8.9.10.11 . (c) Vers . 27. (d) Vers . 21. & 22. Calu. 4. Inst. 17.25 . Nos vt in tota scriptura sanam huius loci ( Hoc est corpus meum ) intelligentiam non minori obedientia quàm cura consequi studeamus , neque praepostero feruore teme●è artipimus , & sine delectu quod temerè se mentibus ingerit , sed sedula meditatione adhibitâ sen sum amplectimur quam spiritus Dei suggerit , quo freti , despicimus quidquid terrenae sapientiae ex alto opponitur . Psal . 118.474 (a) 2. Tim. 3.15 . (b) 2. Pet. 1.19 . (c) Ephes . 2.20 . (d) Act. 17.11 . (e) Ioan. 5.39 . Meanes necessary , but not sufficiēt to expound scripture . Are by persons proper and fit to be applyed . Aug. epist . 3. Tanta est Christianarumpro funditas literarum , vt in eis quotidie pro ficerem , si eas solas ab ineunte pueritia vsque ad decrepitam senectu●em , maximo ocio , summo studio , meliori ingenio conarer addiscere , Non quod ad ea quae necessaria sunt saluti , tantâ in eis perueniatur difficultate , sed cum quisque ibi fidem tenuerit sine qua pie recteque non viuitur , tam multa tamque multiplicibus mysteriorum vmbraculis opaca , intelligenda proficientibus restant , tantaqueue non solùm in verbis quibus ista dicta sunt , sed etiam in rebus quae intelli gendae sunt latet altitudo sapientiae , vt annosissimis , acutissimis , flagrantissimis cupiditate discen di , hoc cont●ngat quod eadem scriptura dicit : Cùm consummauerit homo tunc incipīt . Epist. 119. cap. vlt. Plura se in scripturis nescire quàm scire . See Staples . princip . doctrinalibus controu . 6. l. 9 c. 9.10 . &c. How Dauid and Timothy studyed scripture . How S. Peter exhorts to interpret scripture . (a) 2. Pet. 1.20 . (b) Ephes . 2.20 . How our faith is built vpon the Prophets & Apostles . (a) Act. 17.11 . How they of Ber●ea & the Iews searched Scripture . (b) Eccl. 19.4 . Act. 17.11 . I● ▪ 5.39 . 
A16161	----	The Protestants evidence taken out of good records; shewing that for fifteene hundred yeares next after Christ, divers worthy guides of Gods Church, have in sundry weightie poynts of religion, taught as the Church of England now doth: distributed into severall centuries, and opened, by Simon Birckbek ... Birckbek, Simon, 1584-1656. 1635 Approx. 1303 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 248 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-01 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A16161 STC 3083 ESTC S102067 99837867 99837867 2214 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A16161) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 2214) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 624:02) The Protestants evidence taken out of good records; shewing that for fifteene hundred yeares next after Christ, divers worthy guides of Gods Church, have in sundry weightie poynts of religion, taught as the Church of England now doth: distributed into severall centuries, and opened, by Simon Birckbek ... Birckbek, Simon, 1584-1656. [40], 248; 206, [2] p. Printed [by Augustine Mathewes and Thomas Cotes] for Robert Milbourne, and are to bee sold at the signe of the Grayhound in Pauls Church-yard, London : 1635. Title page in red and black. "Cotes pr[inted] aa-ff; Mathewes the rest"--STC. The first leaf is blank. "The tvvelfth centurie, from the yeere one thousand one hundred, to one thousand two hundred" (caption title) has separate pagination and register. Includes bibliography. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Protestantism -- Apologetic works. 2002-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2002-05 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2002-06 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2002-06 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE PROTESTANTS EVIDENCE , TAKEN OVT OF GOOD ●●●ORDS ; Shewing that for Fifteene hundred yeares next after CHRIST , divers worthy ●uides of Gods Church , have in sundry weightie poynts of Religion , taught as the Church of England now doth : DISTRIBVTED INTO SEVERALL CENTVRIES , and opened , By SIMON BIRCKBEK , Bachelor in Divinitie , sometime Fellow of Queenes Colledge in Oxford , and now Minister of Gods Word 〈◊〉 Gilling in RICHMONDSHIRE . LONDON , Printed for Robert Milbourne , and are to bee sold at the Signe of the Grayhound in Pauls Church-yard 1635. TO THE RIGHT WORshi●full , HV●FREY VVHARTO● of Gillingwood , Esquire , Receiver Generall of his Majesties R●v●nues within the Arch-Deaconry of Richmond the Bishopricke of Durham , and Northumberla●d , my m●ch respected Patron , G●ace and Peace bee multiplied . Sir , THe free accesse which you made mee , for the exercise of my Ministerie within your donation , ( what time , besides other Sutors , you had a sonne of your owne , whose sufficiencie of Gifts might have anti-dated his yeares , and made him capable of greater Preferment , had God been pleased to have continued his life ) hath so farre engaged mee unto you , that I have laid hold on the first oportunitie , whereby I might manifest my thankefulnesse unto you ; which I could not better expresse , than by Dedicating this Treatise to your Name and Memory , beseeching God , that as hee hath hitherto done great things for you , and given you a Benjamins portion above your brethren , so hee would still continue his favours to you and yours , and blesse you , both in your owne person , and in your fruitfull & promising off-spring . Now if this Treatise seeme not no sutable a Present either to your yeares or disposition , which call you indeed rather to a poynt of Devotion , than Disputation ; the truth is , it is a Controversall Treatise , yet it is withall a just and Defensive War , which I have undertaken , rather for the clearing of our owne ( cast , than the infesting of others ; and the end I aime at , is to discover the truth , and guide others therein ; And I know it would please you at the heart , to see such as have gone astray , reduced into the old way , which the Prophet calls the Good way . If any shall reape benefit by this Worke , and thanke the Authour for his paines , I shall foorthwith take them up , and bestow them wh●re they are due , namely , next under God , upon your selfe , upon whose Gleabe these first Fruits of mine grew , and are now ( in such sort as you see ) gathered into this Store-house , and sequestred into severall Centuries , for the Churches use and benefit , by one of her meanest Proctors , but Your much bounden Kinsman , and Beneficiary , SIMON BIRCKBEK . TO THE READER . CHristian Reader , this Treatise was first occasioned , and afterwards composed in maner as followeth : The Prophet a Hosea saith of Ephraim , that hee had mixt himselfe among the people ; that Ephraim was as a Cake on the hearth not turned , baked on the one side , and raw upon the other ; that is , b in poynt of Religion , was partly a Iew , and partly a Gentile . It was my lot to fall upon a Charge , which like Ephraim , was part Protestant , part Papall , and the one side questioned with the other , Where their Religion was before Luther ? Whereunto I addressed such answere , as I thought might satisfie the weake , and represse the clamourous ; but the matter growing to farther debate , it occasioned me to draw a Catalogue of our Professors . Now it fell out , that about the same time , M Doctor ●e●●ly ( one who is exc●llently verst in Controversies ) had with good successe stood up in this quarrell with Iesuit Fisher. I acquainted him therefore with the businesse , and he gave mee the right hand of Fellowship , encouraging me to go on with my Catalogue : but I found it too hard a taske for me , ( though I had good helps from others , namely from the wel-furnished Libraries of my much respected friends , Master D. Potter , the worthy and learned Provost of Queenes Colledg in Oxford , and Mr. W. Richardson , Minister of Gods Word at Borough Church in Westmerland , a very learned and revere●d Divine , & also my good neighbour M. Nathaniel Hawksworth ) to procure such Records as might prescribe for 1500 yeares together : so that it caused me travell as far as Oxford , there to visit those famous private and publike Libraries , where I became an eye-witnesse of divers parcels of Evidence , wherof I made use in this Treatise . And now havi●g my materialls about mee , I though● my selfe tollerablie furnisht for the Worke ; and yet if I had had ●he whole Bodleian-Vaticane Library about me , I might sometime have bin at a stand , if I had not had some Living Librarie to consult withall . Whereupon ( having to deale with a companie of subtill Adversaries , like the sonnes of Zerviah , of whom David complained , that they were too hard for him ; and lest the truth , and the Churches Cause might seeme to suffer through my weaknesse ) I repaired , by entercourse of Letters , to my learned Counsell Mr. Dr. Featly , and hee ( I thanke him ) was readie to resolve me when I was in doubt , and to direct mee , ( yea and correct mee also ) when I was at default ; and indeed I was well pleased with the Obeliskes and dashes of his pen ; for , as Salomon saith , The wounds of a lover are faithfull . I have used the helpe of Ancient and Moderne Writers , forreine and domestick , and namely , the Reverend and learned Bishops , and Doctors of our Church ; insomuch as I may say in Samsons language , That if I had not ploughed with their Heifer , I had not so easily unfolded divers Popish Riddles . I have dealt faithfully in the businesse , not wresting , nor wittingly misalleadging any Authours testimonie , nor yet sleightly proposing the Adversaries Argument : for that had beene to have set up a shaw-fowle of mine owne framing , and then have battered it in pieces with mine owne Ordna●ce ; but I have done as the Israelites , who went downe to the Philistims to sharpen their tooles : I have set as keene an edge on the Adversaries Arguments , as Bellarmines , Parsons , or Brereleyes Forge could afford . I conf●sse the Worke is larger , than I either desired , or expected ; but it could not well bee otherwise and speake fully to a thousand yeares and a halfe , and withall cleere the Evidence as it went , from the Exceptions of the Adversary . I have also been long about it and so my worthy Doctor tells mee ; but withall hee puts mee in hope , it may prove like the * Cypresse tree , which though it bee long a growing , yet wh●n once it is growen up to a tree , the shade of it s●rves for an harbour to the child unborne , the issue hereof I leave to GOD. This onely I may truely say of this Worke , It hath stood mee to some charges , and cost mee much paines and travell ; Al which ( were it an hundred times more than it is ) I should thinke well bestowed , if the Church of God , and my Charge profit by me , and the Christian Reader pray for me . S. B. Catalogu● Testium Veritatis . OR , A Catalogue of such VVitnesses as are produced in th●● Treatise , for proofe of the PROTESTANTS Religion , disposed according to the times wherein they flourished . Witnesses produced in the first Age , from Christs birth to 100 yeares . CHRIST IESVS . The twelve Apostles . Saint Paul , and the Churches of the Romanes , and others . Anno 63. Ioseph of Arimathea , who brought Christianitie into Britaine . 70. Dionysius Areopagita . The Bookes that beare his Name , seeme to bee written in the fourth or fifth Age after Christ. 100 Ignatius the Martyr . In the second Age from 100 to 200. 150 Iustine Martyr . 166 Hegesippus . 169. The Church of Smyrna , touching the Martyrdome of their Bishop Polycap . 170 Melito , Bishop of Sardys . 177 Pope Eleutherius his Epistle to Lucius , the first Christian King of Britaine . 180 Polycrates of Ephesus , and the Easterne Churches , touching the keeping of Easter . 180 Irenaeus , Bishop of Lyons . 200 Clemens Alexandrinus . In the third Age , from 200 to 300. 201 Tertullian . 230 Origen . 230 Minutius Felix . 250 Cyprian , Bishop of Carthage . 300 Arnobius . 300. Lactantius . Anno 291 Amphibalus , and his associates martyred in Britaine ; and Saint Alban . ann . 303. In the fourth Age , from 300 to 400. 310 A Councill at Eliberis in Spaine 317 Constantine the Great . 325 The first Generall Councill at Nice , against the Arrians . 330 Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea . 337 Ephraim the Syrian . 340 Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria . 360 Hilarie , Bishop of Poitiers . 364 A Councill at Laodicea . 370 Macarius the Aegyptian Monke . 370 Cyril Bishop of Hierusalem . 370 Optatus Bishop of Mela in Africke . 370 Ambrose Bishop of Milain . 370 Basil the Great , Bishop of Caesarea . 370 Gregorie Nazianzen . 380 Gregory Nyssen , Bishop of Nyssa in Cappadocia , brother to Basil. 381 The second generall Councill at Constantinople , where Macedonius was condemned . 390 Epiphanius , Bish. of Salamine in Cyprus . In the fifth age , from 400 to 500. 406 S. Chrysostome , Bish. of Constantinople . Andr. Rivet . Critici sacri . 415 S. Hierome . idem . 420 S. Augustinus . 429 Palladius , sent ( by Pope Celestine ) into Scotland ; and Germanus ( by the French Bishops ) into Britain , to beat downe Pelagianisme . 430 Vincentius Lirinensis wrote against the Pelagians , and Nestorians . 430 Cyril Bishop of Alexandria . 430 Theodoret the Historian , Bish. of Cyrene . 431 The third generall Councill at Ephesus , where Nestorius was condemned & deprived . 450 Leo the Great . 451 The fourth generall Councill at Chalcedon , where Dioscurus & Eutyches were condēned . 490 Gelasius the Pope . In the sixth age , from 500 to 600. 520 Cassiodore , Abbot of Ravenna . 520 Fulgentius , Bishop of Ruspa in Africke . 529 A Councill at Aurange , against Semi-Pelagians , and Massilians . 540 Iustus Orgelitanus claruit ann . 540. Trithem . de Scriptor . Ecclesiast . 545 Iunilius , Episcopus Africanus . 545 Primasius , a Bishop of Africke . Bellar. de Scriptor . Ecclesiast . 540 Rhemigius , Bish. of Rhemes . Andr. Rivet . 553 The fifth generall Councili at Constantinople , to confirme the Nicen Councill . 560 Dracontius . 580 Venantius Fortunatus , Bish. of Poictiers , a Poet , and Historian . 596 Augustine the Monke , Mellitus and Laurence , sent into Britaine by Pope Gregorie . 596 The Britaines Faith. 600 Columbanus , or Saint Colme of Ireland . In the seventh age , from 600 to 700. 601 Greg. the First , the Great , placed by Bellar. in this seventh age . Bell. de Script . Eccles. 601 Hesych . Bish. of Hierusalem . Bellar. ibid. 630 ●sidore , Bishop of Sevill , Disciple to Gregorie the Great . 635 Aidanus , Bishop of Lindasferne , or Holy Iland , and Finanus his Successour . 681 The sixth Generall Councill at Constantinople , against the Monothelites , who held that although Christ had two Natures , yet hee had but one will. In the eighth Age , from 700 to 800. 720 Venerable Bede the Saxon. 740 Ioannes Damascenus . 740 Antonius Author Melissae . 754 A Council held at Constant. wherein were condemned Images , and the worshipers of them● 768 Clement , B. of Auxerre , Disciple to Bede . 787 The second Councill at Nice , about restoring of Images . 790 Alcuinus , or Albinus , an Englishman , Disciple to Bede , and Tutor to Charlemaigne : this Alcuinus laid the foundation of the Vniversitie of Paris . 794 A Councill at Frankford , wherein was condemned the second Councill of Nice , for approoving the worshipping of Images . 800 Carolus Magnus , and Libri Carolini . In the ninth Age , from 800 to 900. 815 Claudius Scotus . 820 Claudius Taurinensis , against Image-worship . 824 A Councill at Paris about Images . 830 Christianus Druthmarus , the Monke of Corbey . 830 Agobard , Bishop of Lyons . 840 Rabanus Maurus , Bishop of Mentz , Disciple to Al●win . 840 Haymo , Bishop of Halberstadt , Cousin to Bede . 840 Walafridus Strabus , Abbot of Fulda , Disciple to Rabanus ; hee collected the Ordinarie Glosse on the Bible . Trithem . de script . Eccles. 861 Hulderick , Bishop of Auspurge . 862 Iohn Mallerosse , the Scottish Divine ; or Ioannes Scotus Erigena ; hee was slaine by the Monkes of Malmsbury . 860 Photius , Patriarke of Constantinople ; he wrote the Nomo-Canon . 876 Bertram , a Monke and Priest of France . 890 Rhemigius , Monke of Auxerre ; hee wrote upon Saint Mathew . 890 Ambrosius Ansbertus , the French Monke . In the tenth Age , from 900 to 1000. 910 Radulphus Flaviacensis Monachus . Bellarm . quò suprà . 950 Stephanus Eduensis Monachus . Idem . 950 Smaragdus the Abbot . 975 Abbot Aelfrick , and his Saxon Homily , and his Saxon Treatise of the Old and New Testament , both translated into English. In the eleventh age , from 1000 to 1100. 1007 Fulbert , Bishop of Chartres . 1050 Oecumenius . 1050 Berengarius . 1060 Radulphus Ardens . 1070 Theophylact , Archbish. of the Bulgarians . 1080 Anselme , Archbishop of Canterbury . 1090 Hildebert , Archbishop of Tours . 1100 Anselmus Laudunensis , Collector of the Interlinear Glosse . In the twelfth age , from 1100 to 1200. 1101 Zacharias Chrysopolitanus . 1120 Rupertus Tuitiensis . 1130 Hugo de Sancto Victore . 1130 Bernardus Clarae-vallensis . 1130 Peter Bruis , and Henry of Tholouse . 1140 Peter Lombard , Master of the Sentences . 1150 Petrus Cluniacensis . 1158 Ioannes Sarisburiensis . 1160 Petrus Blesensis , Archdeacon of Bathe . 1170 Gratianus . 1170 Hildegard the Prophetesse . Trithem . 1195 Ioachimus Abbas . 1200 Nicetas Choniates . In the thirteenth Age , from 1200 to 1300. 1206 Gul. Altissiodorensis . 1215 Concil . Lateranense , & Cuthb . Tonstal . Dunelm . Episcop . de eodem . 1220 Honorius Augustodunensis . Bellarm. 1230 Gulielmus Alvernus Parisiensis Episcopus . 1230 Petrus de Vineis . Trithem . 1240 Alexander de Hales . 1250 Gerardus and Dulcinus . 1250 Hugo Cardinalis . 1250 Robert Groute-head , or Grosse-teste , Bishop of Lincolne . 1256 Gulielmus de Sancto Amore. 1260 Thomas Aquinas . 1260 Bonaventura . 1260 Arnoldus de Novâ villâ . 1300 Ioannes Duns Scotus . In the fourteenth age , from 1300 to 1400. 1303 Barlaam the Monke , and Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica . 1320 Gulielmus Ockam . 1320 Nicol. de Lyra , a converted Iew , who commented on all the Bible . 1320 Marsilius Patavinus . 1320 Michael Cesena . Trithem . 1320 Dante 's . 1320 Durandus de S. Portiano . 1330 Alvarus Pelagius . 1340 Iohannes de Rupe-scissâ . Trithem . 1340 Thomas Bradwardin . 1343 The Kings of England oppose Papall Provisions , and Appeales , Anno 1391. 1350 Richardus Armachanus . 1350 Robert Holcot , the Englishman . 1350 Francis Petrarch . Bellarm. 1350 Taulerus , a Preacher at Strasbrough . Bellarm. 1370 Saint Bridge● . 1370 Iohn Wickliffe , and the Lollards . 1386 Gregorius Ariminensis . 1400 Sir Geoffrey Chaucer . In the fifteenth Age , from 1400 to 1500. 1410 Petrus de Alliaco , Cameracensis . Bell. 1410 Iohn Gerson , Chancellour of Paris . 1411 Petrus Dresdensis , and Iacobellus Misvensis . 1414 Iohn Hus , and Hierome of Prague . 1414 Constantiense Concilium . 1417 Nicholaus Clemangis . Trithem . 1420 Ziscay , the Captaine of the Hussites . 1420 Laurentius Valla. 1426 Iohn Rochezana , Disciple of Hus. 1430 Paulus Burgensis . 1430 Alphonsus Tostatus , Bishop of Avila . 1430 Thomas Walden . 1431 Basiliense Concilium . 1440 Bessarion the Cardinall . 1453 Iohn de Vesalia . 1460 Nicolaus de Cusa . 1460 Dionysius Carthusianus . 1479 Wessellus , Preacher at Wormes . 1480 Gabriel Biel. 1490 Iohn and Francis Picus , Earles of Mirandula . 1494 Trithemius the Abbot , teste ipso . 1498 Hierome Savonarola , burnt at Florence for Religion . 1500 Ernestus , Archbishop of Magdeburge . In the sixteenth Age , from 1500 to 1600. Anno 1517. Martin Luther published his Propositions against Indulgences ; and shortly after opposed the Popes Supremacie , Purgatory , and other Tenets of the Pontificials of Rome . A Catalogue of Authours cited in this Treatise , with the time and place of their Edition . A. ADo Viennens . Chron. 1512. Agobardi opera , Parisijs 1605. Aelfrickes Sermon on Easter day , printed at London by Iohn Day , and reprinted Lond. 1623 , with his Saxon Treatise of the old and new Testament . Aeliani varia Histor. Graeco-lat . Tiguri 1556. Paulus Aemilius de gest . Francor . Basileae the place expressed , but not the yeare . Alcuini opera , Paris● 1617. — idem de Trinitate , Lugd. 1525. Alexander de Ales ( his ) Summa in quatuor partib . Papiae 1489. Clem. Alexandrini opera Graec● , ex Biblioth . Medicaeâ , Florent , 1550. Petr. de Alliac● Cardin. Cameracens . in lib. 1 , 3 , & 4. Sentent . Paris . Monachi Altissiodorens . Chronologia Trecis , 1609. Gul. Altissiodorens . in Sent. Paris . 1500. Alvarus Pelagius de planctu Eccles. Venetijs 1560. Ambros●j opera tom . 5. Basileae 1538. Bishop Andrews Answer to Cardinall Perron's Reply , London 1629. — ejusdem Responsio ad Bellarmini Apologiam , London 1610. Ambros. Ansbertus in Apocalyps . Colon. 1536. Anselmi opera● Colon. 1573. Anselmi Laudunens . Gloss. Interlinear , apud Lyran. Lugduni . 1589. Antiquitates Britanicae Hanoviae 1605. S. Antonij Melissa in Biblioth . S. Patr. per Margarin● de la Bigne . Thomae Aquinatis Summa . Paris . 1608. Thom. Aquinatis opera Antuerp . 1612. Radulphus Ardens in Dominical● cited by Doctor Vsher in his Answ●r to the Iesuite . Gregor . Ariminens . in prim . & secund . Sentent . Venet. 1503. Ric. Armaca●i Sermones contrà Fratres Mendicant . & Quaestion . Armenor . Paris . 1511. D. Arnobius advers . Gentes . Antuerp . 1582. Articles of Religion in England , London , 1631. — In Ireland , London 1629. S. Athanasij opera Graeco-Lat . Paris 1627. — Latin. in 4. tom . Basil 1556. Io. Aventini Annales Boiorum , Ingolstad . 1554. Augustini opera in 10. tom . Basil 1529. A●orij Institution . Moral . tom . primus , Colon. 1602. B. ●oh . Balaeus , de Scriptor . Britan Basil. 1559. The Prudentiall Ballance , weighing the Catholike and Protestant Religion , 1609. Theodori Balsamon . Com. in Canones , Paris . 1561. Caesaris Baronij Annales in 10. tom . Antuerp . 1597. Basilij opera S●aeco-lat . tom . 2. Par. M.DCXVIII . — Lat. Antuerp . 1568. Bedae opera in 8. tom . Basil. 1563. — Ec●lesiast , Histor. Gent. Anglor . Antuerp . 1550. Master B●dels Letters to Master Wadesworth , London , 1624. Robert Bellarminus de Controvers . Fidei , Ingolstad . 1587. — de Scriptorib . Ecc●esiast . Colon. 1622. — de Indulgentijs & Iubilaeo . Colon. 1599. Benno Cardinal . de Vitâ & Gest. Hildebrandi , in Fascie . rerum expetend & fugiend . Colon. 1535. Iaco. Philip. Bergomens . Supplement . Chron. Venet. 1503. Bernardi opera , Paris . 1513. Philip Ber●●●●j Pithanon Diatribae 2. Tolosae . 1608. Bertold . Constantiens . Appendix ad Hermanni Chron. Francof . 1585. Bertram de corp . & sang . Domini . Colon. 1551. — Anglicè . Lond. 1548. Bessarion . Tract . de Sacram. Euchar. habetur inter ●iturgias S. Patr. Antuerp . 1560. Biblia Latin. per Sanct. Pagnin . Lugdun . 1527. Bibliotheca Patrum , tom . 14. Colon. 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Cade ( his ) Iustification of the Church of England . London 1630. Tho. de Vio Caietan . Comment . in tertiam part● Summae Aquinat Bononiae . 1520. — In Epist. Pauli . Lugdu● . 1556. Gul. Camdeni Britannia Lond. 1600. — Anglice Lond. 1610. Edm. Campiani Ratione● Cosmopoli . 1581. Codex Canonum vetus Eccles. Romanae . Lutetiae . 1609. Canones Apostolorum & Concilior . ex Editione Ioan. Tilij Graec. — & Lat. Lutet . Paris . 1620. Thom. Cantipratanus de mirac . & exempl . memorabilib . sui temporis , Duaci . 1605. Melchior Canus de loc . Theolog. Lovan . 1569. Barthol . Caranza ( his ) Summa Concilior . Antuerp . 1577. Hugo Cardi●alis Postillae pa●t . 6. Paris . 1539. Carion Chronic. à Caspar Pe●cero auctum . Witebergae . 1570. Caroli Magni libri quatuor contrà Imagines , Francof . 1608. Dionys. Carthusiani opera , Colon. 1533. Georg. Cassandri de Articul . Religion . Consultatio . Lugdun . 1608. — Liturgica . Colon. 1558. — De Officio pij viri in dissidio Religionis Colon. 1577. Cassiodorus in Psalmos , Paris . 1519. Alphons . de Castro advers . Haeres . Venet. 1546. — de justâ Haereticor . punitione , Antuerp . 1568. Mathias ●laccius Illiricus ( his ) Catologus testium veritatis studio & curâ Si. Goulartij . Gen. 1608. Ambros. Cathaerini disceptatio de Certitudine Gratiae . Romae . 1551. Georg. C●dreni Annales Graec. & Lat. Basil. 1566. Centuriae ecclesiast . Histor. Magdeburg . Basil. 1569. Edw. Chaloners Treatise upon Credo Eccles. S. Catholicam , Lond. 1625. Sir Geoffrey Chaucers Workes , Lond. 1602. Mart. Chemnit . loci Theologi● . partes 3. Fr. 1608. Ioann . Chrysostomi opera Graec , in tom . 8. Etonae . 1613. — Ejusdem opera Lat. in tom . 5. Paris . 1588. Zacharia● Chrysopolitan . Episcop . in Concord . Evangel . 1535. David . Chytrai Chronolog . Helmaestadij , 1593. Nicol. de Cl●mangijs opera , Lugd. Batav . 1612. Pet. Cluniace●s . opera , Paris . 1522. Robert. Cocus ( his ) Censura quorundam Scriptor . veterum . Lond. 1614. Ioan. Cochl●i Histor. Hussit . Mogunt . 1549. S. Col●mban . in libro cui titul . Paraenetic . vet . cum notis Goldasti . 1604. Philip de Cominees ( his Historie of Lewis the eleventh , and Charles the eighth , Gallic● . A Paris . 1551. Concilia General . & Provincial . per Severin . Binnium● tom . 4. Colon. 1606. Concilia General . Edit . Romae , 1612. Concil . Tridentin . Antuerp . 1577. Gaspar Contareni opera , Par. 1571. Costeri Enchiridion Controversiar . Colon. 1586. Rich. Crakanthorpe , of the Popes temporall Monarchy . London . 1621. — Of the fifth Generall Councell . Lond. 1631. — Defensio Eccles. Anglicanae contrà Archiepiscop . Spalatens . Lond. 1625. Saint Austins Summes of Religion by William Crompton , in answer to Iohn Brereley , Lond. 1625. Nicol. de Cusâ opera , Basil. 1565. D. Cypriani Opera cum Annotat. Iacob . Pamelij . Paris . 1603. — Et edit . à Goulartio . 1593. Cyrilli Alexandrini opera , tom . 5. Basil. 1566. Cyrilli Hierosolomit . Catecheses Graec. Lat. Paris . 1609. D. Lamb. 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The nine Articles of Religion handled in the severall Centuries of this Treatise , are these : 1 Concerning the Scriptures sufficiencie . 2 Of the Scripture Canon . 3 Of Communion in both kindes . 4 Of the number of Sacraments . 5 Concerning the Eucharist . 6 Touching Worship of Images . 7 Concerning Invocation of Saints departed . 8 Of Iustification . 9 Of Merits . By the way ar● handled , The Popes Supremacie . The power of Calling Councills . Appeales to Rome . Priestes Marriage , &c. THE PREFACE TO THE PROTESTANTS EVIDENCE . PAPIST . GOod morrow Neighbour , are you going to Church so early ? PROTESTANT . I am Sir , and I should bee glad of your company . PAP . So should I be of yours ; but I doubt , wee goe not to the same Church . PRO. I am going to a Protestant Church , and I take that to be a true member of the Catholike . PAP . It is not ; for the true Church is ever gloriously visible , and had visible Professors in all ages ; but yours was not in being , ( a saith Father Brereley ) untill Luthers dayes : and Father Campian b calls to witnesse , res omnes & reculas , all things both great and small , things and thinglings , that never any other Religion but the Catholike , tooke any deepe root upon the face of the earth . And hee saith further , That c one cannot spie out so much as one towne , one village , one house for fifteene hundred yeeres that savoured of your doctrine : And Iesuite Coster saith , d It is manifestly evident , that none in the universall world before Luther , in the yeere 1517 , held that Faith , which Luther , and Calvins Schollers professed . PROT. This is but a vaine ●lourish of the Iesuites , and controuled by their owne man Bristow , who acknowledgeth , that c some there have been in many ages , in some points , of the Protestants opinion . Now for our Tenet , this it is ; The Church , ( that is the societie of Christian people , professing saving faith ) is never totally hidden ; but there bee still some , that hold the right faith , and deliver it over to others ; and yet in time of persecution , and the like cases , the Church is not alwayes so conspicuous , as that a man seeing her outward pompe and ceremonies , may poynt her out , and safely joyne himselfe to such a company : for thus f Bellarmine makes the Church to be a Societie subjecting themselves to the See of Rome , teaching trueth without errour , and this Companie as visible , as are the Citizens of Rome . Now for the Protestant Church , though it have not bin alwayes gloriously visible ; yet it hath been evermore so visible , as the true Church ought to be . PAP . Saint Austin saith , g He hath set his Tabernacle in the Sun ; Is not the Church then conspicuous as the Sunne ? PROT. You may not argue from such Allusions as are taken from the outward pompe of the world , thereby to describe the inward beautie of the Church . 2. Besides , according to the true reading , h the mea●ing is ; he hath set up a seat for the Sunne in the heavens , that there it might be viewed as on a scaffold : now this Sunne may be eclypsed . 3. Againe , this was onely an Allusion which Saint Austin used against the Donatists , ( who pinned up the Church within a corner of Afri●k , as now the Papists confine her to Rome ) thereby telling them , there were many Churches besides theirs , to bee seene as cleare as the Sunne , if the Donatists could discerne them . 4. Lastly , though Austin termed the Church in diebus illis , in his owne time , to be set as it were in the Sun ; yet he denies not , but that afterwards , in declining ages , this Sunne might bee darkened , and the Church make but small appearance in the time of persecution , as the same Father i speakes . PA. The Church is as a Citie upon an hill k , a light upon a Candles●icke , and therefore conspicuous . PRO. 1. This also is an Allusion , which yet Saint Chrisostome l understands to be meant of the Apostles ; that they were to looke to their car●iage , since they were to preach abroad , and had many looke●s on . 2. Againe , though the Church be set on a hill , yet as the Aramites could not discerne ●he citie of Samaria , whither the Prophet led them , till their eyes were opened , 2 Kings chap. 6. no more can one discerne , or difference the true Church from the malignant , and conventicles of the wicked , untill his minde be enlightned . And thus Austin * tolde the Donatists , they could not see the Church on the hill , because their eyes were blinded , to wit , either with ignorance , or malice . In a word , this Hill may bee hid with a mist , this Sunne obscured with a cloud , and the Moone ecclipsed . The blessed Apostles were no corner-creepers , yet were they not seene and acknowledged for true prof●ssors by the Scribes and Pharisees , that dwelt but hard by in Iewrie . Howsoever , what is this to Rome , if shee hold the socket , and want the light ? if she be seated on a hill , yea seven hills , like m Babylon ? PA. Will you call Rome Babylon ? PRO. Your owne Iesuites n call Rome Babylon ; neither can this bee meant of Heathen Rome , but of Rome Christian , and as it shall bee at the end of the world : for so speakes o Rib●ra ; and p Viegas saith , After that Rome shall fall from the faith . Now Heathen Rome could not fall from the faith , since it never professed the faith : therefore the prophecie is to bee fulfilled in Rome Papall , and Christian. PA. If thy brother offend thee , q tell the Church ; then must we needs know the Church . PRO. 1. Wee are bid tell the Church , that is , her Pastors and Governours , when there is such a standing Ministery , and publike discipline exercised . 2. But in case Tyrants hinder the open meetings of Christians ; even then also in some good sort , though shee bee not so outwardly visible to her foes , yet may the Church take notice ; as the faithfull in the primative Church met together privately , and observed orders for reforming of abuses , being knowne one to another as friends , but unknowne ( as such ) to their foes . In a word , one may tell the Church , though for the time shee bee hid from her foes ; even as one may tell a message to his friend , who for the time is hid from his enemie . PA. Some of yours say , r The Church was invisible for divers ages . PRO. They say not it was simply invisible , but they speake respectively ; so that looking on those times , which fell out somewhat before , and after the first sixe hundred yeeres , and seeing the title of Vniversall Bishop ( which Grego●y detested as s Antichristian ) setled on the Pope , about the yeere 666 , and that this t number so fitly agreed to the Man of sinne : as also looking downeward to the thousand yeere , wherein Satan was u loosed , and the Turke and Pope grew great ; looking hereon , and comparing the Church as shee was then ( under x Hildebrand , forbidding Marriage , and deposing the Emperour ) with her selfe in the primitive ages , they said shee was in manner invisible in the Westerne Horizon , to wit , in respect of that degree , and measure of the light of the Gospell that brake forth in the time of the Reformation . Besides , during the time mentioned , it was visible enough , in the Greeke and Easterne Church : and for the Westerne , it had the same subsisting and beeing with the best members in the Romane Church . PA. Master Napier saith , y Our Religion hath raigned universally , and without any debatable contradiction 1260 yeeres ; Gods true Church most certainely abiding so long latent and invisible : And Master z Pe●kins saith , That for the space of many hundred yeeres , an universall Apostasie overspread the whole face of the earth , and that your Church was not visible to the world . PRO. Master Napier saith not , that your Religion raigned so universally ; neither doth hee speake in generall of the whole body of the Romish Faith , and of the universall Antiquitie thereof , which is the poynt in question ; but onely of the first originall of the papall dominion , and Antichristian kingdome , as hee calleth it , as Bishop Morton hath well a observed : neither yet was this papall Hierarchie , or as Master Perkins calls it , b popish Heresie of being intituled , Vniversall Bishop of the Church , carried without the opposition of severall Councells , and Worthies in Gods Church ; as ( God willing ) hereafter shall appeare . For the place cited out of Master Perkins , it is as we in our common phrase of speech use to say , That all the world is set on mischiefe , because so many delight in wickednesse . Neither is this manner of speech unusuall in the Scriptures , From the Prophet to the Priest , all deale falsely , saith Ie●emy 6.13 . and c Saint Paul saith , All secke their owne , and not that which is Iesus Christs , Phil. 2.21 . b●sides hee saith , I● had overspread the face of the earth : Now a large fi●ld may be over-spread with Tares and weedes , and yet some good corne in the field : Neither saith Master Perkins , that our Church was simply invisible , but that it was not visible , to the world ; and withall he tels us where it was . It lay hid ( saith he d ) vnder the chasse of Poperie . Now the graine is not ut●erly invisible , whiles it is mingled with cha●se in the same heape . PA. Was not the Church ever gloriously visible ? PRO. It was not ; for ( as S. Austin saith ) it was sometimes onely in Abel , and he was slaine by his brother ; in Enoch , and hee was translated from the ungodly ; it was in the sole house of Abraham , Noah , and Lot. Afterwards how was it so notably conspicuous , when as both Israel and Iudah fell to Idolatry , f in the times of Achaz and Manasse ? when as those Kings caused the Temple to be shut up , the Sacrifice to cease , and erected Idols in every Towne ? Besides , at our Saviours comming , we find but a short Catalogue of true professors mentioned , to wit , Ioseph and Mary , Zacharie and Elizabeth , Simeon and Anna , the Shepherds in the fields , and some others . When Christ suffered death , his little flocke ( as hee called it ) was scattered , his disciple ●led , and none almost durst shew themselves , save Mary and Iohn , and some few women , with o●hers . After our Saviours death , the Apostles , and their followers were glad to meet in Chambers , whiles the Priests , Scribes and Pharisees bare all the sway in the Temple ; ●o that ( as the l Treatise of the true C●urch●s visibilitie ha●h it ) if a we●ke body had then enquired for the Church , it is likely , they had beene directed to them . In ●he time of those Ten persecutions , there could not be any knowne assembly of Christians , but foorthwith ●he Tyran●s labou●ed to root them out : but ( as T●rtullian saith ) m The blood of the Martyrs was the seed of the Church , they were pe●secuted , and yet they increased . Af●erwards , when the Arrian Heresie overspread all , so that all the world was against Athanasius , and he , and some few Confes●ors stood for the Nicen Faith ; ( insomuch as Hierome said , n The world sighed and groaned , marveiling at it selfe , how it was become Arrian , ) what a slender appearance did the true professors then make ? and yet in such dangerous and revolting times , even small o assemblies of particular congregations , wheresoever dispersed , serve to make up the universal Church Militant : so that the Reader is not to be discouraged , if hee find not the Protestant Assemblies so thronged , since it was not so with the primative Church ; and S. Iohn foretold , p That the woman , that is , the Church , persecuted by the Dragon , that old Serpent the Devill , and his instruments , should flie into the Wildernesse , where the Lord promised to hide her , till the tempest of persecution were over-blowne ; wherein God dealt graciously with his Church , for had her enemies alwayes seene and knowne her professors , they would ( like cruell beastes ) have laboured to devoure the damme with her young , the mother with her children . Now whereas the Papists brag of their Churches Visibilitie , their owne Rhemists are driven to confesse , q that in the raigne of Antichrist , the outward state of the Romane Chu●ch , and the publike entercourse of the faithfull with the same , may cease , and practise their Religion in secret : And Iesuite Suarez thinkes it probable , r That the Pope shall professe his faith in secret . Where is then your Tabernacle in the Sunne ? your light in the Candlesticke ? when as your Church and Pope shall walke with a darke Lanterne , and say Masse in a corner . PA. Why was not the Church alwayes so conspicuous ? PRO. Because sometimes her best members , ( as Athanasius , Hilarie , Ambrose , and others ) were persecuted as Heretikes , and ungodly men ; and that by learned persons , and such as were powerfull in the world , able to draw great troupes after them , of such as for hope , favour , feare , or the like respects , were ready to follow them : In this , and the like case , when false Priestes broach errours , and deceive many , Tyrants persecute Gods Saints , and cause others to retire ; then I say , ( when the faithfull want their ordinarie entercourse one with another ) the number of the Church malignant maybe great , in comparison of those that belong to the true Church . PA. If the Church were not alwayes so conspicuous , in what sort then was it visible ? a visible Church you grant . PRO. In the generall militant Church , there have in all ages been some Pastors and people , more or lesse , that have outwardly taught the truth of Religion in substance , though not free from errour in all poynts ; and these have beene visible by their ordinary standing in some part of Gods Church . Besides , for the more part there have bin also some , that withstood and condemned the grosse errours and superstition of their times ; and these good men , whiles they were suffered , taught the truth openly ; but being persecuted by such as went under the Churches name , even then also they taught , and administred the Sacraments in private , to such faithfull ones as would joyne with them ; and even in those harder times , they manifested their Religion by their Writings , Letters , Confessions ; at their Iudgement , Martyrdome , or otherwise , as they could . Now ( as learned Doctor White in his Defence of his Brothers booke hath observed ) u whensoever there bee any Pastors in the world , which ●ither in an open view , or in the presence of any part thereof doe exercise ( though in private ) the actions of true Religion , by sound teaching the truth , and right administration of the Sacraments , this is sufficient to make the Church visible , by such a manner of visibilitie , as may serve for the gathering and preserving of Gods elect . Now such visible Pastors and people , the Protestant Church was never utterly destitute of . PA. You seeme to make the Church both visible , and invisible . PRO. May not one bee within , and seene with his friends , and yet hidden to his enemies ? visible to the seeing , and invisible to the blind ? Indeed Tyrants , Infidells , and Heretikes , they knew the true beleevers , as men of another profession ; but blinded with malice and unbeliefe , they acknowledged them not for true professors : * as M. Bradford told D. Day , Bishop of Chichester ; the fault why the Church is not seene of you , is not because the Church is not visible , but because your eyes are not cleare enough to see it ; and indeed , such as put not on the spectacles of the Word to finde out the Church , but seeke for her in outward pompe , are much mistaken . Aelian in his History tels us of one Nicostratus , who being a well-skilled Artisan , and finding a curious piece of worke drawne by Xeuxis that famous Painter , one who stood by , wondered at him , and asked him , what pleasure hee could take , to stand as hee did , still gazing on the picture : to whom hee answered ; x Hadst thou mine eyes , my friend , thou wouldest not wonder , nor aske me that question , but rather be ravished as I am at the inimitable art of this rare and admired piece . In like manner , if our Adversaries had their eyes annoynted with the eye-salve of the holy Spirit , they might easily discover the Protestant Church , and her visible congregations . The Aramites , 2 Kings 6. chap. could not discerne the citie of Samaria , whither the Prophet led them , untill their eyes were opened ; no more can one discerne , or difference the true Church from the malignant , and conventicles of the wicked , untill his mind bee enlightned . And thus Saint Austin told the Donatists , * They could not see the Church on the hill , because their eyes were blinded , to wit , either with ignorance , or malice . Saint Austin compares y the Church to the Moone , which waxeth and waneth , is eclipsed , and sometime , as in the change , cannot be seene ; yet none doubts but still there is a Moone . The Church sometimes shines in the cleare dayes of peace , and is by and by over-cast with a cloud of persecution , as the same Austin z saith : The Moone is not alwayes in the Full , nor the Church ever in her glorious aspect . PA. If your Church were alwayes visible , where then was it before Luthers time ? PRO. I might also aske you , Where was a great part of your Religion before the Trent Councell , which was but holden about the yeere 1534. Now for our Religion , it was for substance , and in the affirmative parts , and positive grounds thereof , ( the question being not of every accessory , and secondary poynt , ) it was I say , contained in the Canonicall Scriptures , wheras you are driven to seeke yours in the Apocryphall , in the Trent Creed , the Trent Councell . Now ours it was contained in the Apostles Creed , explayned in the Nicene and Athanasian , confirmed by the first foure generall Councels , taught in the undoubted writings of the true , ancient , and orthodox Fathers of the primative Church , justi●ied from the tongue and penne of our adversaries ; witnessed by the confessions of our Martyrs , which have suffered for truth , and not for treason . This is the Evidence of our Religion ; whereas for proofe of yours , in divers poynts , you are driven to flie to the bastard Treatises of false Fathers , going under the name of Abdias Linus , Clemens , S. Denys , and the like ; as sometime Perkin Warbek a base fellow feigned himselfe to be King Edward the fourths sonne , and for a time went under his a name : and yet these Knights of the poste , must be brought in to depose on your behalfe , though others of your side have cashiered them as counterfeits b . PA. If your Professors were so visible , name them . PRO. This is no reasonable demaund ; you have rased our Records , conveied our Evidence , clapt up our Witnesses , and suborned your owne ; you have for your owne advantage , ( as is already showen by that learned Antiquary of Oxford , D. Iames c , and others , and shall ( God willing ) appeare in the Centuries following , ) you have I say , corrupted Councells , Fathers , and Scriptures , by purging and prohibiting what Authors , and in what places you would ; and now you call us to a tryall of Names . PA. Particular men may mis-coat the Fathers , but our Church hath not . PRO. You have ; witnesse your expurgatory and prohibitory Indices , or Tables , whereof since my selfe have of late bin an eye-witnesse , and seene divers of them both in the publike and private Libraries in Oxford ; I will therefore acquaint the Reader with the mysterie thereof . When that politike Councel of Trent perceived , that howsoever men might bee silenced , yet bookes would be blabs , and tell truth , they devised this course : They directed a Commission to a company of Inquisitors , residing in severall places , and therby gave them power to purge and prohibit all manner of Bookes , Humanitie and Divinitie , ancient & late , in such sort as they should think fit . Vpon this Cōmission , renued as occasion served , the Inquisitors set forth their severall expurgatory , and prohibitory Indices , printed at Rome , in Spaine , in the Low-countries , and elsewhere ; and in these Tables ( yet to be seen ) they set down what books were by thē forbidden , and which to be purged , and in what places ought were to bee left out , whensoever the Workes should be printed anew : for according to their Tables or Corrections , books were to be printed afresh . Now to make sure worke , they got as many of the former Editions of the Fathers workes , as they could , into their hands , and suffered no new Copie to come foorth , but through their fingers , purged according to their Receit : neither feared they that their adversaries would set foorth the large volumes of the Fathers Workes , or others , having not the meanes to vent their Impressions , being forbidden to be sold in Catholike countries . By this meanes , the Romane Censurers thought to stop all tongues and pennes , that none should hereafter speake or write otherwise than the Trent Councell had dictated● and so in time all Evidence should have made for the Romane cause . Hereby the Reader may perceive , that had their device gone on , they would in time , by their chopping and changing the writings of the Ancient at their pleasure , have rased and defaced whatsoever Evidence had made for us , and against themselves . But so it pleased God , that howsoever they had carried the matter cunningly in secret , yet at length all comes out , their plot was discovered , and their Indices came into the Protestants hands . The Index of Antwerpe was discovered by Iunius d ; the Spanish and Portugall was never knowne till the taking of Cales , and then it was found by the English. PA. Might wee not purge what was naught ? PRO. Indeed , if you had purged or prohibited the lewd writings of wanton Aretine , railing Rablais , or the like , you had done well : but under-hand to goe and purge out the wholesome sentences of the Fathers , such as were agreeable to the Scriptures ; thus to purge those good old men , till you wrung the very blood and life out of them , bewrayeth , that you have an ill cause in hand , that betakes it selfe to such desperate shifts . Neither can you justly say , that you have corrected what others marred : for it was your side that first kept a tampering with the Fathers Works , and corrupted them . Francis Iunius reports , e that hee comming ( in the yeare 1559 ) to a familiar friend of his , named Lewis Savarius , Corrector of a Print at L●yden , found him over-looking Saint Ambrose Workes , w●ich Fr●llonius was printing ; whereof when Iunius commended the elegancie of the Letter and Edition , the Corrector told him secretly , it was of all Editions the worst ; and drawing out many sheets of now waste paper from under the table , told him , they had printed those sheetes according to the ancient and authenticke Copies : but two Franciscan Fryers had by their authoritie cancelled and rejected them , and caused other to bee printed , and put in their roomes , differing from the truth of all their owne books , to the great losse of the Printer , and wonder of the Corrector : so that had yo● prevailed , neither olde nor new , Greeke , nor Latin Fathers , nor later Writers , had been suffered to speake the truth , but ei●her ( like Parra●s ) been ta●ght to lispe Popery , or for ever bee● put to sil●nce . The best is , the Manuscripts ( which by Gods providence are still preserved amongst us ) they m●ke for us , as D. Iames , excellently vers'd in Antiquitie , hath showen at large . PA. Have ●ee purged ought in the Fathers , or Scriptures , that was not to bee purged ? PRO. You have , as appeares by these instances following ; St. Chrysostome in his third Sermon u●on Lazarus , and elsewhere maintaineth th● pe●spicuitie and plainnesse of the Scrip●ures , saying , g That in divine Scriptures all necessary things are plaine . Hee likewise holdeth , that faith onely sufficeth in stead of all , saying , h This one thing I will affirme , That faith onely by it se●fe sa●eth . In like sort Saint Hierome holds , i That faith only justifieth , that workes doe not justifie , that Images are not to be adored . Now all this is to be found , even totidem ve●bis , in the selfe same termes in the Fat●ers text ; and yet the Index of Spaine ( published by Cardin●ll Quiroga , and reprinted at Samur , by the honour of the French Gentilitie , the Lord of Plessis ) comes in , and gives these Fa●hers a strong purge , commaunding k all the sentences above named , to bee blotted out of the Fathers Indices , or Tables . In like sort hath another Index of Spaine l , printed at Madrill , reprinted by Turretine , and still preserved and kept in the Archivis , or Treasurie of Monuments in the ●ublike Libra●y at Oxford , dealt with the Index , or Table of S. Austin and Athanasius , as by these few instances may appeare . Blot out , say the Spanish Inquisitors , m these words out of Saint Austins Index , to wit , Wh●n God crowneth our merit●s ( that is good deeds ) hee crowneth nothing else but his owne gifts : and , The Saints are to bee honoured for imitation , not to bee adored for Religion : as also out of Athanasius Index , that God onely is to bee worshipped , that the creature is not to adore the creature . Now all these must bee rased out , notwithstanding they bee the selfe-same words , which these Father 's used in the Text n . Now this is no good dealing , since these Tables and Indices t●uely gathered out of the Fathers Workes , might have served for a hand to poynt at the chiefest Sentences in each Au●hour ; but they have either remooved , or turned the hand aside , to the great hi●derance of those , which upon a sudden occasion are to see what such a Father saith to such a point , and have not the leasure to peruse over the whole booke . PA. We have not purged the Fathers Text , but only the Index . PRO. You have put out the very Text it selfe out of Saint Cy●ill , whose words are ; o Now this faith which is the gift and grace of God , is sufficient to purge , not onely them which find themselves somewhat ill , but those also that are dangerously diseased : Now all this is commanded to be blotted out by the expurgatory Index of Spaine p . Neither can it be justly replied , that these words are put out of Cyril , as not being the Authors words , or not truely translated by our men ; for they bee Cyrils owne words faithfully translated , and the copie agreeth with the Originall ; yea , this golden sentence thus rased , is still to bee found in Cyrils Workes , set fo●th by your owne man Gentian Hervet . Neither yet hath Gods Booke escaped your finge●s , witnesse the Bible set forth by your owne men : q there wee reade in the Text [ Levit. 26. chap. ] according to your translation ; Thou shalt not make to thy selfe an Idoll , and graven thing : your Index saith , r Blot this out of the marg●nt , that graven things are forbidden . Againe the Text saith [ 1. King. 7.3 . ] Prepare your hearts to the Lord , and serve him onely ; your Index saith , s Blot out this glosse , that wee must serve God onely . Besides , Christ is noted to bee the sacrifice for our sinnes ; now these words , Christ is the sacrifice for our sinnes , must bee dashed out t . In like sort , they have blotted out these words in Vatablus Annotations u ; They that beleeve in God shall be saved , and they that beleeve not shall perish . Now if these sayings alleadged , be to be found in the Fathers and Scriptures , not onely in the same sense , but totidem verbis , in the same termes ; why doe they then blot them out of the Fathers Indices , or the Margents and Concordances of the Bible ? they might as well raze them out of the very Text of Fathers and Scripture ; but this they durst not openly attempt , and therefore under hand they wound both Scripture and Fathers through the sides of their Expugatorie and Prohibitorie Tables . PA. Your men have published Parsons Resolutions , and Granadoes Meditations , and therein have changed and altered divers sentences . PRO. Some private men amongst us have dealt so with some late Writers ; but withall they professed , that they had changed and altered their words ; thereby to shew , that with a little helpe , your bookes , such as doe tend to godlinesse of life , might lawfully bee r●ad of us ; now what you did , you did it secretly , and under hand , whereas ours dealt plainly and openly . Besides , you have altered , and changed the writings of the Ancient at your pleasure ; and then would make the World bel●eve , you have onely corrected the faults of the Print , or some such matter . Now as you worke by your Expurgatory Indices ; so doe you also by your other tricke of Prohibitorie ; whereof you make this use , that in case ( upon the evidence given in by good Authors ) the verdict bee like to goe on our side ; then you bring a Prohibition● and remove the matter to be tried by Tradition . But it is no wonder you prohibit our Writers ; for you have forbid Gods Booke ; and called it into the Inquisition ; Forbidding the having , or reading of any part of the Bible in the vulgar Tongue x , tho it be set forth by Catholikes ; and , howsoever you winke at the matter where you cannot helpe it , yet in countries generally Popish , as in Spaine , and elsewhere , The Bible and each part thereof in the vulgar tongue , is utterly prohibited , as your owne Iesuit witnesseth y . And this have divers felt with us in Queene Maries dayes , and of late Iohn Murrey z a Merchant of Aberden in Scotland , who having a New Testament in the ship , was accused by the Serchers , brought before the Inquisition , and lost both his goods and life for it . To close up this point , you have laboured to roote out all memory of our Professors : for example sake , Is King Edward the sixth stiled ( and that worthily ) A Prince of admirable towardnesse ? Is Fredericke Duke of Saxonie tearmed , Christianissimus Princeps , A most Christian Prince ; this commendation of King Edward must be left out in the next impression , & so must the Dukes title of Christian Prince : and thus they deale with our Writers , Is Melanch●on tearmed A man famous for all kind of learning ? and Bucer sirnamed the Divine ? doth Beatus Rhenanus in his notes upon Tertullian call Pelicane A man of admirable learning and holinesse of life ? All these Epithets and Titles the Romish Inquisitors have commanded to be blotted out a . Yea , whereas Oecolampadius and Doctor Humfrey of Oxford have taken good paines in translating some parts of Cyrils Works , they a●e but slenderly rewarded ; for Possevine b saith , that by all meanes their names must bee razed out of those Translations . And another Iesuite tells us c , that Our names must not be suffered to stand upon Record : nor Protestant Writers once so much as to bee named either in their owne Workes or others , unlesse it bee per contemptum , by way of scorne and reproach ; and yet you bid us name our men . PA. Wee have purged some bookes , but not corrupted the Scriptures . PRO. Your Trent Councell makes d Traditions of equall credit , and to be embraced with the like godly affection , as the Scriptures are to be reverenced . Is not this to mingl● water with wine , base mettall with good Bullion ? and so indeed a corrupting of Scripture . Besides , you have ( which is e fearefull ) detracted from Gods Word , tha● which was written with his owne finger , to wit , the second Commandement , against the worship of Images ; and because the words thereof are sharpe , and rip up the heart-strings of your Idolatrie , you have therefore omitted them in your Catechismes , f Prayer bookes , and in your Office of the blessed Virgin , set foorth by commaund of g Pius Quintus ; and to salve up the matter , lest thereby wee should have no more then nine Commaundements , you have cut the tenth into two . You might well have left the words ●here , that Gods people might know there was such a Commandement , howsoever they had counted it , the first , or the second . Now , as you have detracted , so you have added to the rule of Faith , by thrusting into the Canon , the Apocryphall bookes , which Hierome ( the best languaged of all the Father , ) h rejected . Lastly , you doe not only allow , but impose on others a corrupt translation of Scripture , to wit , the vulgar Latine Edition , whereas wee referre our selves to the Originals . Now surely , wee may better trust an originall Record , than a Copie extracted thence ; and it is more wholesome to drinke at the well-head , than at a corrupt and muddie streame . Now the Latine Edition ( which you follow , and preferre before all others ) it is but a Translation it selfe ; but the Hebrew and Greeke which wee follow , are the Well-springs and Originalls . Is not this now a manifest corrupting of Scripture , to bind all men , ( as your Trent Councell doth i ) that none dare presume to reject this Translation ; which by your owne men is confessed k not to be Saint Hier●mes , and already showne to be a corrupt one by the learned of our side l PA. I looke to have your Professors named . PRO. Restore us entire our Evidence which you have marred , and made away ; returne us our Witnesses which you have chained up in your Vatican Library , and elsewhere , and wee accept your challenge . But doe you indeed looke to have our professors named ? and why so ? the true Church of God may bee visible , though the names of her visible professors from time to time can not be shewed : there might be thousands of professors in former ages , and yet ( happily ) no particular authentick Record of their names now extant ; or if extant , yet so as we cannot come by them . Neverthelesse ( to answere you at your owne weapon ) I hope to make it cleare , that God hath dealt so graciously with his Church , as that he hath continually preserved sufficient testimonies of his truth , that are ready to be deposed on our side , and that successively from age to age : so that I may say , as Saint Ambrose did in the like case ; m You may well blot out our Letters , but our Faith you shall never abolish . Papists may conceale our evidence , and wipe out the names of our Professors out of the Records ; but when all is done , the Protestants faith is perpetuall . Now , in that we yeeld thus farre to their importunitie , we doe not this , as if it were simply necessary for the Demonstration of our Church , to produce such a Catalogue of visible Professors in all Ages ; but onely out of the confidence of the truth of our cause , and partly to stop the mouth of our clamorous adve●saries ; For it is Tertullians Rule , n that A Church is to bee accounted Apostolike , if it hold Consanguinitie of Doctrine with the Apostles . Now , what though we could no● successively name such as taught as we doe ; yet because God hath promised there should be alwaies in the world a true Church , ( having either a larger or smaller number of Prosessors , ( it sufficeth that we are able out of Scripture to demonstrate that we maintaine the same Faith and Religion , which the holy Apostles taught , and Christ would have to be perpetuall ; this I say sufficeth to manifest our Succession , although all Histories were silent of the names of our Professors . Now , that I am to speake of the Church in her severall and successive Centuries and Ages , to give the Reader some Character and touch thereof , I will beginne with the fi●st 600. yeares next after Christ ; wherein ten severall times during the fi●st three Centuries , the Church was persecuted by Tyrants , and almost continually assaulted by Heretikes ; yet in the end , Truth prevailed against Error , and Patience overcame her Pers●cutors . This is the time wherein our learned Bishop Iewell , challenged the Papists , to shew any Orthodoxe Father , Councell , or Doctor , that for the space of those 600 Yeares , taught as the present Church of Rome did : the like challenge was lately renued by my deare friend , that worthy Divine , Doctor Featly of Oxford , challenging o the Iesuits to produce out of good Authors , any Citie , Parish , or Hamlet , within 500. yeares next after Christ , wherein there was any visible assembly , that maintained in generall , the Articles of the Trent Councell , or such and such points of Popery , as at the Conference hee named in particular . Now of this period , the first 300. yeares thereof , were the very flower of the Primitive Church , because that in the●e dayes the truth of the Gospell was infallibly taught , by Christ and his Apostles , and that in their owne persons ; as also by othe●s that lived to heare , see , and converse with those blessed Apostles , and disciples of Christ Iesus ; and this ( haply ) made Egesippus , an ancient Authour , call the Church of those dayes , p an uncorrupt and virgin Church : and yet was this virgin Church ill intreated by such a sowed the tares of errour , which yet the carefull husbandman in time weeded up : neither indeed for the space of these first 300 , could those Tenets of Poperie get any footing , their Papall Indulgences were yet unhatched , their purgatory fire was yet unkindled ; it made not ( as afterwards ) their pot boyle , and their kitchin smoake ; the Masse was yet unmoulded , Transubstantiation was yet unbaked , the treasury of Merits was yet unminted , the Popes transcendent power was uncreated , Ecclesiastickes were unexempted , and deposing of Kings yet undreamed of : the Lay-people were not yet couzned of the cup , Communion under one kinde , was not yet in kinde , it was not then knowne , that Liturgies and prayers were usually and publikely made in a tongue unknowne : they did not then worship and adore any wooden or breaden god ; they worshipt that which they knew , and that in Spirit and truth q , and they called on him , in whom they beleeved r : so did they , and so doe wee . In a word , in the former ages of the Church , Satan was bound , after the thousandth yeare hee was loosed , and after the middle of the second Millenary , about the yeare 1370 , hee was bound anew . Concerning the Churches estate in the next five hundred yeares , it grew very corrupt : so that of these times we may say , as Winefridus , borne at Kirton in Devonshire , after surnamed Boniface , was wont to say , s In old time there were golden Prelates , and woodden Chalices , but in his time woodden Prelates , and golden Chalices ; knowledge was now decayed , Princes , Prelates and others were now more busied in building , or beautifying materiall Temples and Chappels , than in the gathering together of living stones , and reedifying Gods spirituall Temple : so that in this time of Monkery , many religious Houses were erected , either out of voluntary Devotion , or enjoyned Penance : Now , insteed of the right administration of the Word and Sacraments , came in the dumbe guize of the Masse ; and the people instead of the pure milke of the Word , were intertained with feigned Liturgies , Legends , and Miracles , & their consciences loaden with a number of unprofitable Ceremonies , and unwarrantable Traditions ; now there was great con●idence put in holy Graines , hallowed Beades , Agnus Dei's , and the like Babies ; and the honour due to the Creator , was given to the crea●ure . Now the people made many fond vowes , went many merry Pilgrimages , and beheld many garish Processions ; now they were taught that ab●tinence from meates and drinkes was Meritorious ; that the opus operatum , the worke done was sufficient in their Sacraments , and their Devotions , and much of this service performed in an unknowne tongue . Now the crownes of Martyrdome wherewith the first Bishops of Rome were honoured , were changed into a Triple Crowne , and the Pastorall Staffe , beganne to quarrell with the Princely Scepter ; and all these things were carried by the name of the Church , the People many of them beleeving as the Church beleeved , and this Church was the Roman , and this Roman Church , was the Pope . Concerning the Church in the next 500. yeares , even to these our times ; the Church began to recover her strength● and the light of the Gospell was notably discovered by Waldus in France , and his followers , Wickliffe in England , Iohn Hus , and Martin Luther in Germanie . Now also by the benefit of Printing ( which was found out in the fifteenth Century , ) the Tongues came to bee knowne , Knowledge increased , Bookes were dispersed , and Learning communicated ; the Scriptures were perused , the Doctors and Fathers read , Stories opened , Times compared , Truth discerned , and Falshood detected . Now because there hath already , and will hereafter be occasion to speak of Antichrist ; I will therfore heere point out his severall Ages . About the yeare 607. Antichrist began in part to appeare and show himselfe , rising by degrees untill he came to the height of impietie ; for as other things , so Antichrist also , was to have his rising , growth , height , and fall ; even as monstrous and huge Beasts goe with their young ones many yeares , as other creatures doe many monthes . The maine strength of the Romish Antichrist consisted in those two Swords , the Spirituall and Temporall ; now the Pope did not at once attaine to the managing of these two Swords ; but by degrees he came to usurpe this two-handed Sword. The first step that hee made to the throne of pride , was about the yeare , 607 , when Pope Boniface the third , by the grant of that murderer Phocas , tooke to himselfe the Title , Authoritie , and Supremacie over the whole Church . The next time , that he notoriously shewed himselfe , was after the thousand yeare , when Gregory the ●eventh claimed and usurped both the Swords ; that is , a Soveraigne and Universall Iurisdiction , not onely Ecclesiasticall over the Clergie , but also Temporall over Kings and Emperours : unto this second Soveraigntie they had long aspired , but never attained untill the time of this Hildebrand , in whom Antichrist came to his growth : yea , the Pope was discovered to be Antichrist by those Catholike Bishops , the Bishop of Florence x , and Robert Grosthead Bishop of Lincolne y , and others . Vpon this discovery of the Man of Sinne , sundry of Gods people refusing the Marke of the Beast , severed themselves from the Papall Communion ; whereupon the Pope and his Faction raised grievous persecutions against the servants of God. To speake yet more particularly ; the degrees of Antichrist may thus be reckoned . He had his Birth or rising in Boniface the third , who tooke to himselfe that Antichristian title , of universall Bishop , which his Predecessor Gregorie so greatly condemned . Hee had his growth , or increase in the time of Pope Adrian the first , and the second Councell of Nice , who jointly agreed to set up the Adoration of Images , and the practice therof to be generally received in the Church . Hee came to his Kingdome , and reigned in Pope Hildebrand , who excommunicated and deposed Henry the fourth , the lawfull Emperour , and gave away his Empire to Rodulph , and after his death to others . He was in his jollitie , and triumphed in Pope Leo the tenth , and his Lateran Councell ; s●ewing himselfe a God in pardoning sinnes , delivering soules out of Purgatorie , defining Faith ; setting himselfe above a generall Councell , controuling , and judging all men , himselfe to be judged by none ; professing ( for so it is recorded of Gregory the seventh a ) That he was a God , and could not erre . In a word , ( as my learned kinsman hath deciphered him ) b when he usurped an universall authoritie over all Bishops , the Pope was but Antichrist Nascent ; when he maintained the doctrine of Adoration of Images , he was Antichrist Crescent ; when hee exalted himselfe above all Kings and Emperours , hee became Antichrist regnant ; but when he was made Lord of the Catholike Faith , so that none must beleeve more , nor lesse , nor otherwise then hee prescribed , hee became Antichrist Triumphant . Thus did the Pope in processe of time become a perfect Antichrist , playing the Hypocrite and Tyrant , both in Church and State ; exalting himselfe a● a Monarch over Gods house ; making his owne word , and definition , of equall authoritie with holy c Scripture ; usurping temporal Iurisdiction over Civill States , murthering Christs servants that yeelded not to his becke . His last Age , is his declining age , wherein the Lord by the spirit of his mouth [ 2 Thess. 2.8 . ] that is , by the Ministerie of his Word , Shall consume this Man of Sinne ; and this is come to passe in part ; For hee is already fallen into a Consumption , whereon he irrecoverably languisheth , notwithstanding all the help that can be made him , by his Colledge of Physicians , Canonists , Schoolemen , Priests and Iesuits ; but for his finall Destruction wee must expect it at the glorious comming of our blessed Saviour . The summe of all is this , the Pope having pearkt himselfe above his fellow Bishops , it grieved him to be subject to Kings and Emperours ; not to exalt himself above them , he distracted both Church and State in the point of Image-worship , which occasioned much bloodshed in Christendome , and then having weakened the Empire , he became superior to Kings and Emperours : there being nothing now but the Church in his way , he preuailed over it by his Lateran Flatterers , who set the Pope above a generall Councel , that is , aboue Gods Church ; a Generall Councell being indeed the Representative Church of God here on earth , and the Pope himselfe being the Vertuall Church , for so Gretser confesseth , d that by the Church they do meane the Pope for the time being . Now to this height the Pope came under pretence of the Churches government , the Churches discipline racking the spirituall censure to a civill punishment ; by the Church solemnities in crowning Emperors ; by his Excommunications , Absolutions , and Dispensations , he rose to his greatnesse of state ; by the doctrine of workes meritorious , Iubilees , Pardons , and Indulgences , hee maintained his State. And now I come to shew out of good Authors , that in nine severall weighty poynts of Religion , the best guides of Gods Church for the space of 1500 yeares , have taught as the Church of England doth . THE FIRST CENTVRIE , From the first yeare of Grace , unto the yeare One Hundred . Christ Iesus and his Apostles the Protestants Founders . PAPIST . WHom doe you name in this first Age , that taught the Protestant Faith ? PROTESTANT . I name our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus , and his Apostles , Saint Paul , and his Schollers , Titus and Timothie , together with the Churches which they planted , as that of the Romanes , Corinthians , and the rest . These I name for our first Founders , and top of our kin , as also Ioseph of Arimathea , that buried Christs body , a speciall Benefactor to the Religion planted in this land . These taught for substance , and in the positive grounds of religion , as we doe in our Articles , Liturgies , Homilies and Apologies , by publike authoritie established in our Church of England . Besides these , there were but few Writers in this age , whose undoubted Works have come to our hands ; yet for instance sake I name that blessed Martyr of Christ , Ignatius Bishop of Antioch , who for the name of Iesus , was sentenced to bee d●voured of wild beasts , which hee patiently indured , saying , a I am the Wheat or graine to bee ground with the teeth of beasts , that I may be pure Bread for my Masters tooth : let fire , rackes , pulleys , yea , and all the torments of Hell come on mee , so I may winne Christ. Here also , according to the Roman Register , I might place Dionysius Areopagita , whom they usually place in this first Age , as if hee were that Denys mentioned in the b Actes , whereas indeed hee is a post natus , and in all likelihood lived about the fourth Age , and not in this first ; for Denys c saith , That the Christians had solemne Temples like the Iewes , and the Chancell severed , with such and such sanctification , from the rest of the Church ; whereas the Christians in this fi●st age , made their assemblies to prayer , both in such private places , and with such simplicitie , as the Apostles d did , and as the times of persecution suffered * them . Againe , Denys tells us , that when hee wrote , Monkes were risen , e and they of credit in the Churches , and many Ceremonies to hallow them ; whereas in the Apostles time , when the true Dionysius lived , Monkes were not heard of ; yea , Chrysostome saith , f That when Paul wrote his Epistle to the Hebrewes , there was not then so much as any footstep of a Monke . PA. I challenge Saint Denys for ours ; hee was ( as our Rhemists g say ) all for the Catholikes . PRO. Take him as he is , and as he comes to our hands , hee is not wholly yours , but in some things cleane contrary to you ; as namely in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , wherein you vary from us most . Besides , hee hath not your sole receiving of the Priest , nor ministring under one kind to them who receive , nor Exhortations , Lessons , Prayers , in a tongue which the people understand not , he hath not your Invocation of Saints , no● adoration of creatures , nor sacrificing of Christ to God , nor praying for the soules in purgatory : so that in things of substance , and not of ceremony onely , he is ours , and not yours , as I hope will appeare by his Writings : for we will ( for the time ) suppose him to be a Father of this first age , although the bookes which beare Saint Denys his name , seeme to bee written in the fourth or fifth age after Christ. PAP . Can you proove that Christ and his Apostles taught as you doe ? PRO. Wee have cleare testimonies of Scripture , h which appoint Gods people to receive the blessed Cup in the Sacrament , and to be present at such a divine service as themselves understand i ; wee have expresse command forbidding Image-worship k ; against Invocation of Saints it is said l , that Abraham knoweth us not , and Isaac is ignorant of us ; and the blessed Angel refused all religious honour and Adoration m . Likewise against Merit of workes , and workes of Super-erogation , it is said n , that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall bee revealed in us ; and that wee are unpro●itable servants , when we have done all that was commanded us , we have but done that which was our dutie to doe , and the like . PA. You alleadge Scripture , and so doe wee ; yea in some things the Scripture is plaine for us , as where it is said , o This is my Bodie . PRO. What though it make for you in shew ? so doth it for the Anabaptists , where it is said , p that the Christians had all things common : you will not hence inferre , that because in such an extremitie , their charitie ( for the reliefe of others ) made things common concerning the use , that therefore we should have no property in the goods that God hath given us ? It is not the shew and semblance of words , but the sense thereof that imports the truth . Saint Paul sayes of his Corinths , q Ye are the body of Christ , yet not meaning any Transubstantiation of substance : but h●reof anon in his due place . PA. The Scriptures make not for you , but as you have translated them . PRO. For any point we hold , we referre our selves to the Originalls ; yea , wee say further , let the indifferent Christian Reader , ( who hath but tollerable understanding of the Latine Tongue , ) compare our English translations , with those which your owne men , Pagnine , Arias Montanus , and others have published , and they will finde but little countenance for Poperie ; and namely , for Communion in one kind , and Service in a strange Tongue , which ( as is already proved ) hath bene decreed directly contrary to Gods expresse word , but let us come to the particulars . Of the Scriptures sufficiency , and Canon . The Church of England holds , r that Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation : so that the●e is no doctrine s necessary for our everlasting salvation , but that is ( or may bee ) drawne out of that Fountaine of truth , as being either expressely therein contained , or such as by sound inference may bee deduced from thence : and this is witnessed by Saint Paul , saying , that t they are able to make us wise unto salvation , that the man of God may bee perfited , and throughly furnished unto all good workes ; which they should not bee able to doe , if they contained not a perfect doctrine of all such poynts of faith , as we are bound to b●leeve , and duties to bee practised . And if it be said , that S. Paul speakes of the man of God , such an one as Timothie was , it holds in others also : for if the Scripture be so profitable for such and such u●e● , that thereby it perfects a Divine , much more an ordinary Christian ; that which can pe●fit the teacher , is sufficient for the learner . PA. Doe you disclaime all Traditions ? PRO. We acknowledge Traditions concerning Discipline , and the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church ; but not concerning the doctrine , or matter of faith & Religion . You equalize unwritten traditions to holy Scripture , receiving them , saith your Trent Councell , u with equall reverence , and religious affection , as you receive the holy Scriptures themselves : we da●e not doe so , but such traditions as we r●ceive , we hold and esteeme farre inferiour . Concerning the Scriptu●e Canon , the Trent Councell accurseth x such as receive not the Bookes of Machabees , Ecclesiasticus , ●oby , Iudith , Baruch , Wisdome , for Canonical Scriptu●e . Now wee retaine y the same Canon which Christ and his Apostles held and received from the Iewes , unto whom were committed the Oracles of z God , being , as Saint Augustine speakes , a The Christians Library-keepers . Now the Iewes never received these Bookes which wee terme Apocryphall into their b Canon : yea , Christ himselfe divided the c Canon into three severall rankes , i●to the Law , the Prophets , and the Psalmes ; now the Apocryphal come not within this reckoning . Indeed ( as S. Hierome saith ) The Church reades these Bookes for example of life , and instruction of manners ; but yet it doth not apply them to stablish any Doctrine . Of Comunion under both kindes , and the number of Sacraments . If any shall say , The Church was not induced for just causes to commun●ca●e the ●ay people under one kinde , v●z of bread onely , and shall say they ●rred in so doing , let him bee accursed , d saith the Trent Councell . Now our Chu●ch holds , e That both the parts of the Lords Sacrament , ought to b●e ministred to all Gods people : so tha● according to us ; In the publ●k● celebra●ion of ●he E●cha●ist , Communion in bo●h kinds , ou●ht to bee given to all sorts of C●ri●●ians , righ●ly disposed and prepared : and this o●● Tenet is ag●e●able to Christes Institution f and Precept , g who saith expr●sly and li●erally , Drink yee all of this . It agrees a●so with Saint Pauls h precept , and with the practice of the holy Apostle● , i and the pri●ative Church . Dionysius Arcopagita , who ( as you say ) was Saint Pauls Scholler , and Disciple , relates k the practice of the Church in his time , on this manner ; After the Priest hath prayed that hee may ho●●ly distribute , and that all they that are to partake of the Sacrament may receiue it worthyly ; he breakes the Bread into many pieces , and divides one Cup among all . Ignatius , who was Scholler to Saint Iohn the Evangelist , saith ; l That one Bread is broken unto all , and one Cup destributed unto all . PA. Bellarmine saith , m the words of Ignatius are not as you alleage them ; There is one Cup distributed unto all ; but , there is one Cup of the whole Church , and though the Greeke Copies reade as you doe , yet he saith , That much credit is not to be given to them . PROT. Shall we give more credit to a Transl●tion , then to the Originall ? If the Well-head and Spring bee cor●upted , how shall the Brooke , or Streame runne cleare ? It may be indeed that divers errors are crept both into the Greeke & Latine Copies , but for the place alleag●d , there is no colour of corruption , in asmuch as the same that Ignatius spake of the Bread , the same are repeated of the Cup according to Christs Institution ; and howsoever Bellarmine may produce some Latine Copie , that translateth the words of Ignatius , as Bellarmine sets them downe , Vnus Calix totius Ecclesiae ; yet ( as D. Featly observes in the Grand Sacriledge of the Romish Church ) Vitlemius , and divers other Latin Copies following the originall verbatim , render them thus , Vnus Calix omnibus distributus , that is , One Cup distributed unto all , and not as Bellarmine , and * Baronius ad Ann. 109 sect . 25. would have it ; as if Ignatius had said , that one Cup was distributed not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , omnibus , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pro omnibus , not to all , but for all , that is , for the behoofe and benefit of all . Howsoever they wrest it , Ignatius tels us of one Cup , and this not the Priests Cup , but the Churches Cup , and this Cup was distributed . But now adaies in the Masse , there is no distribution of the Cup. PA. Christ spake these words , Drinke yee all of this , only to the Apostles , n as they were Priests , and not to the Laitie . PRO. By this meanes , you might take away the Bread , as well as the Cup from the Lay-people ; for when Christ administred the Sacrament , none were present ( for ought we know ) but onely the Apostles . Besides , the Apostles were not yet fully ordained Priests , though they had beene once sent to Preach ; Christ after his Resurrection breathed on them the holy Ghost , and fully endued them with Priestly power . Iohn 20.22 . Againe , the Apostles at this Supper were Communicants , not Ministers of the Sacrament ; Christ was then the onely Minister in that Action . Now Christ delivered them the Cup as well as the Bread , saying to the same persons , at the same time , and in the same respect , Drinke yee all of this , to whom hee had said before , Take , and Eate , giving both alike in charge ; so that you must either barre the people from both , or admit them to both : now if neither precept of eating or drinking belong to the Laitie , the Laitie are not at all bound to receive the Sacrament . PA. Although it be said of Drinking the Cup [ Doe this in remembrance of me ; ] Yet the Words [ Doe this ] are spoken Absolutely o of the Bread , and but Conditionally of the Cup , namely [ as often as yee shall drinke it : 1 Cor. 11.25 . ] So that these Words , Doe this in remembrance of me , inferre not any Commandement of receiving in both kindes . PRO. According to your Tenet , our Saviour saith not , Doe this as often as you Lay men communicate ; but whensoever you receive the Cup and drinke , then doe it in remembrance of me ; as much as to say , as often as you Lay people drinke , which needeth never be done by you ( according to Romish Divinitie ) Doe this nothing in remembrance of mee : Besides , as there is a Quotiescunque , as often , set before the Cup , As oft as you drinke ; so there is a Quotiescunque set before the Bread , As often as you shall eate this Bread , ( vers . 26. ) so that quoti●scunque biberitis , as often as you Drinke , cannot make the Precept Conditionall in respect of the Cup , more than of the Bread ; it being alike referred to the Bread and to the Cup. PA. We wrong not the Laitie , ministring unto them under one kinde onely ; they receiving the same benefit by one , that they should doe by both , Christs body and bloud being whole in p each ; so that the people receive the bloud together with the Host , by a Concomitancy . PRO. In vaine have you devised Concomitance , to disguise your sacriledge of the Cup taken from the people ; as if our Saviour Christ were not sparing enough in ordaini●g as few outward Ceremonies as might wel be ; but that he must doe that by two , which might have beene compassed by one ; or as if he would have the Ministers receive his body and bloud superfluously ; that is to say , both in the Bread , and in the Cup too , which was sufficiently received in either of them . Againe , though the devout Communicant , receiving Christ spiritually by Faith , is thereby possessed of whole Christ crucified , in the inward act of the soule ; yet we deny , that the whole is received Sacramentally in this outwad act , under one onely part of this Sacrament : so that if Concomitance were granted , yet Communion in one kinde is not justifiable ; for although it deprive not people of Christs bloud , as it is a bodily part conteined in the veines ; yet it depriveth them of the bloud of Christ , as it was shed , powred out , and offered in sacrifice for them ; neither can su●h manner of receiving shew foorth the Lords death , which is one chiefe end of the celebration of this Sacrament , 1 Cor. 11.28 . The breaking of Bread repesenteth in no wise the effusion of bloud ; this is lively represented by the powring out of the consecrated Wine , and d●inking of the Cup , there being a perfecter signification in both kinds then in one . Lastly , though the people might receive the blood together wi●h the host , ●et he that so receives the blood , cannot properly bee said to drinke : now Christ saith expresly , Vnlesse you drinke his blood , you shall not have life in you , Iohn 6.53 . which place your Papists themselves understand of the Eucharist . Concerning the number of Sacraments , the Trent-Councell accurseth q all such as shall say , that the number of Sacraments is either more or lesse then seaven : but our Church holds , r that of the Sacraments of the Newe Testament , there bee two ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospell , that is to say , Baptisme , and the Lords Supper ; and those five , which by the Church of Rome are called Sacraments , to wit , Confirmation , Penance , Orders , Matrimony , and Extreame Vnction , are not to be accounted Sacraments of the Gospell s . Now that there are and ought to be two Sacraments onely in the New Testament , appeareth hereby , in that there is no promise made unto us of life everlasting in Iesus Christ , which is not sufficiently witnessed , and assured unto us by these two t Sacraments . For the summe of all the promises of God in Christ , is reduced unto these two heads : that for his sake we are received into the favour , and houshold care of God ; and that being once received , we shall be continued in the sa●e for ever : the former whereof is sealed unto us by Baptisme for our entrance and admission into the Covenant ; and the later by the Lords Supper , for our continuance , growth , and confirmation therein . These two were instituted by Christ ; Hoc facite , Doe this in remembrance of mee u , is our warrant for the one ; and goe teach and baptise , for the other x ; there is deepe silence in the rest . Of the Eucharist . The Trent Councel holds , y that there is a conversion of the whole substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christs body and blood , wrought by the words of consecration ; and that there onely remaine the semblances and shewes , the outward shape● , z formes , or accidents of bread and wine : yea , the Councel accurseth such as affirme bread & wine to remaine in this Sacrament after consecration . And yet S. Paul tells us , b that after consecration it is bread , which is broken and eaten ; & it is no lesse than fivetimes so called after the pretended change . Neither is it called Bread , because it was bread , but because it is bread , not in name onely , but in nature and properties : for after consecration , the bread and wine they nourish the body , and comfort the heart as before but the bare formes of bread and wine , as the roundnesse of the Hoste , or colour of the Wine , ( such as they say onely remaine , the substance thereof being abolished ) cannot nourish without corporall substance . Now our Church holds , c that the change of the substance of the bread and wine , into the substance of the body and blood of Christ , commonly called Transubstantiation , cannot be prooved by holy Writ , but is repugnant to plaine testimonies of holy Scripture . PA. How doth it appeare that Christs bodie and bloud are not corporally given and taken in the Sacrament ? PRO. By these reasons : First , wee receive the body and blood of Ch●ist in the Sacrament , as the Disc●ples of Christ did in the first I●stitution of it . Now the body and blood of Chri●t were not corporally received by them , but onely spiritually . Secondly , Christ his body is ascended and taken up into heaven , and the heavens must containe him , d till the end of the world . Thirdly , e Christ hath but one body , and that a true body , and such as cannot be in many places at once and it filleth a place wheresoever it is , and may bee both seene and felt . This was also the judgement of other● , whom you much reverence . Dionysius Areopagita held not Transubstantiation● For he distinguisheth b●tweene the substantiall Sign●s , and Christ sign●fied by them , saying ; f that By those reve●end Signes and Symboles , Christ is signified , and the faithfull made partakers of him . He calleth not t●e ministration of the holy mysteries the sacrificing of Christ unto his Father ( as the Papists doe ; ) but a Typicall or g Symbolicall Sacrifice , that is a figu●e or signe of that great sacrifice : and the same Denys ( as h Bellarmine confesseth ) calleth the Sacrament an An●i●ype , and that after consecration ; so that according to Saint Denys , the Elements of Bread and Wine in this Sacrament , are Types , Antitype , and Symbols , that is , Figures and Signes of the body and bloud of Ch●ist ; and yet not onely bare , naked , and Signes significative , but re●lly ex●ibiting Christ , for that is Denys his word , to wit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that the faithfull thereby partake Christ Iesus . PA. The Scripture is plaine for us , where Christ saith , This is my Body . Math. 26.26 . PRO. Although Christ say , This is my Body , yet hee saith not ( as you doe ) this is made , or shall be changed into my Body ; he sai●h not , that his body and bloud is conteined under the shapes or formes of B●ead and Wine . Againe , you that stand so for the Letter , take not Christs Words litterally ; for it is an improper speech to say , This is my Body , that is , the thing conteined under these formes , is by conversion , and substantiall transmutation , my Body ; but your Papists mainteining Transubstantiation , expound Christs words in this , or the like manner ; therefore in the point of Transubstantiation , you depart from the Letter , and consequently make it figurative . You indeed alleage the Words and Letter , but not the true meaning ; we beleeve Christs words in their right sence ; now the shew makes for you , the sence and substance for us . Now though Christs Body is not according to his materiall substance wholly and intirely , under the outward elements , yet the Bread may bee truly termed Christs Body , because of a Relative and Sacramentall union , and donation of the thing signified , together with the Signes worthily received . PA. What reason have you to interpret these words figuratively ; this is my body , that is , this bread is a signe of my body , and not plainely and literally as they sound . PRO. Figurative speeches are oftentimes plaine speeches ; now there be no other Figures or Tropes in the Lords Supper , but such as are , and alwaies were , usuall in Sacraments , and familiarly knowne to the Church . Now Sacraments must bee expounded Sacramentally , and accordingly the words alledged must not bee taken literally , but figuratively . Christ taking bread , and breaking bread , said of the same , [ This is my body ] now this cannot bee properly taken , therefore for the right expounding of these words , we are necessarily to have recourse to a figurative interpretation ; and the reason hereof is that common Maxime , i Disparatum de disparato non propriè praedicatur , that is , nothing can bee properly and literally affirmed joyntly of another thing , which is of a different nature . By this rule , bread and Christs body cannot bee properly affirmed one of another ; bread being of a different nature from flesh , can no more possibly be called the fl●sh or body of Christ literally , than lead can be called wood : and this makes us interpret the words figuratively ; and wee have in Scripture most manifest places , which proove these wo●ds , [ This is my body ] to be figuratively taken and understood , because in Scripture whensoever the signe ( as the Bread ) being called Christ's body , hath the name & appellation of the thing signified , the speech is alwayes tropicall and figurative . And this agre●th with S. Austi●s Rule : k Sacraments bee signes , which often doe take the names of those things , which they doe signifie and represent : therefore doe they carry the names of the things themselves : thus is the signe of the Passeover , the Lambe , called the Passeover , Math. 26.17 . Exod. 12.11 , 27. the Rocke , the signe of Christ in his passion , is called Christ , and the Rocke was Christ , 1. Cor. 10 4. Circmmcision , the signe of the Covenant , called the Covenant , and Bap●isme the signe of Christs buriall , called Christs buriall : for so saith S. Augustine , l that as Baptisme is called Christs buriall , so is the Sacrament of the Body of Christ call●d his Body . Now this shew , or semblance of words concludes not , that Christ or the Lambe were really the Rocke , the Passeover , but that these things are meant figuratively , it being usuall in Scripture , specially in such Sacramentally speeches as this is we are now about , to give the name of the thing to that which it betokeneth ; and so to call , Circumcision the Covenant , because it is a signe th●t betokneth the Covenant , and so of the rest . Besides the other part of the S●crament , to wit , This Cup is the New Testament in my blood , Luke 22.20 . is figurativ● , and not to be literally taken : for you your selves s●y , m that Calix , or the Cup is there taken for that which is i● the cup : so that your s●lves admit a trope in the institution of this Sacrament . PAP . If these figurative spe●ches were true , yet I cannot see what argument you can draw from hence , or how you can hence prove any thing against our Tenet , saith our ●nglish n Baron : for it is a rule in Divinitie , that Theologia Symbolica non est a●gumentativa , that figurative speeches affoord no certaine proofe in matters of Faith. PRO. The ze●lous , Reverend , and learned L. Bishop of Dur●sme , Doctor Morton , tells o your Baron and his Suggester , that upon the no-p●oper sense of the words , [ This is my body ] it must follow , that there is no Transubstantiation in your Romish Masse , no Corporall presence , no r●all Sacrifice , no proper eating , no lawfull divine adoration therof : and as for the rule , that Symbolicall arguments m●ke no necessary Conclusions , the said learned and reve●end Father saith , That this makes not against us , touching the fi●urative wo●ds of Christ , This is my body , the position maketh onely against them , who extract either a lite●all sense out of a parabolicall and figurative speech , as Origen did , when having r●ad that scripture● Th●re bee some that castrate th●ms●lves for the kingdome of God , ( wh●ch was but a p●rabolicall speech ) hee did really , and therefor● f●●lishly castrate himselfe : or else , when men t●r●e the words of Scripture , properly and literally spoken , int●● figurative meaning● as when Pope Inno●ent th● third , t● p●oove that his Papall authoritie was above th● Imp●riall , a●l●dged that Scripture , Gen. 1. God made two great lights , the Sun , and the Moone ; as if the Imperiall like the Moone , had borrowed its authoritie from the Papall , as from the Sun : or as Pope Boniface 8 , from those words , Luk. 22. Behold , here are two swords , argued , that both the temporall and spirituall sword are in the Pope , as he is Vicar of Christ. Now such kinde of Symbolicall reasoning is indeed of no force . ●ut by that position was it never forbid , whensoever in Scripture the name of the thing signified , is attributed to the symbol or signe , that then the Symbolicall and Sacramental speech should be judged tropicall . But this kind of exposition was alwayes approved of Christ , and by his Church : so here , Christ taking bread , and breaking bread , which was the symbol and signe of Christs body , and saying of the same Bread , [ This is my body ] the sense cannot possibly bee literall , but al●ogether figu●ative , as hath bin shewne by divers ●xamples in Scripture , to wit , the signe of the passing over , called the Passeover ; the Rock , but a signe of Christ , called Christ : In each on● of these the Symbols being a Signe and Figu●e , the speech must infallibly bee Figurative . And therefore Bread , being a Figure of Christs Body , is called Christs body Figuratively . And thus farre our learned Bishop of Duresme . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . The Church of Rome holds , p that Images are to bee had and retained , and that due honour , worship , and veneration is to bee given to them ; The Church of England holds , q that the Romish doctrine of Adoration of Images and Reliques , and also of Invocation of Saints is grounded upon no warra●tie of Scripture , but rather rep●gnant to the word of God. And so indeed we finde , that the Lord in his Morall law hath condemned r in g●nerall all Ima●e● and Idols devised by man , for worsh●p and adoration . And this Precept being a part of his Morall law , it binds s us in the state of the new Testament , as it did the Israelites of old : for in all the Apostles doctrine , wee doe not finde that ever this pr●c●pt was ab●ogated ; so that it bindes , Israelites , Christians , and all . PA. If all worship of Images be forbidden , ( Exod. 20. ver . 4 , 5. ) then all making of them is forbidden , for the same precept which saith , thou shalt not bow downe to them , nor worship them ; saith also , thou shalt not make to thy selfe any graven Image . PRO. Our learned Bishop White , hath answered for 〈◊〉 : the Ground and Proposition of this argument ( saith he ) t is fal●e ; for worshipping of Images is forbidden , as the principall object of that negative precept , and as a thing Morally evill in his very kind : but making them is forbidden , ( onely ) when it is a meanes subservient to worship ; and because it may be separated , both in his owne nature , and in mans intention from that end and use ; therefore the one is simply forbidden , and the oth●r is onely prohibited , when it becommeth a meanes , or instrument to other : for we mislike not pictures or Images for historicall use and ornament ; now this distinction and disparitie betweene making and wo●shipping , is comfirmed by the example of the ●razen Serpent , made by Gods owne appointment ; for when the same was onely made , and looked upon , it was a Medicine , when it was worshipped , it b●came a poyson , and was destroyed . To proceed● ; the Church of Rome holds , x that the Saints raigning with Christ , are to be worshipped and pray●d unto ; but this we hold is not warranted by Gods word , but rather repugnant to it : for we are commanded to invocate God in the name of Christ y ; and our Saviour himselfe inviteth us , to approach with confidence to the throne of his grace z : he is rich in mercie a , to such as call upon him ; and more compassionate , better able , and more willing to helpe us than any Saint or Angel ; and he is appointed by God to be our Intercessour b We reade in the new Testament , many examples of people which made supplication immediately unto Christ , but not of one which made intercession to the Virgin Mary , or to the blessed Saints or Angels . And if any question with this our negative concluding from Scripture ; Saint Hierome upon occasion did the like , saying , c we beleeve it not , because we reade it not . I will close up this point with that advise which Ignatius gave the Virgins of his time ; d not to direct their prayers and supplications to Saints or Ang●ls , but to the Trinity ( onely ) . O ye Virgins , have Christ alone before your eyes , and his Father in your Prayers , being enlightned by the spirit . Of Faith and Merit . The Trent e Counc●l accurseth all such as say , that a si●ner is justified by Faith on●ly , or deny that the good workes of holy men doe truly Merit everlasting life , f our reform●d Churches hold , g that wee are accounted righteous b●fore God , onely for the Merit of Iesus Christ , applyed by Faith● and not for our workes or Merits . And when we say , that we are justified by Faith onely , we doe not meane that the said justifying Faith is alone in man , without true repentance , hope , charity , and the feare of God ; for such a Faith is dead , and cannot justifie . h Even as when we say , that the eye onely seeth , wee doe not meane , that the eye severed from the head doth see , but that it is the onely prop●rtie of the eye to see . Neither doth this Faith of Christ , which is within us , of it selfe justifie us , or deserve our just●fication unto us ( for that were to account our selves to be justified by the vertue or dignity of something within our selves : ) but the true meaning ther●of is , that although we heare Gods Word and beleeve it , although wee have Faith , Hope , Charity , Repentance , and the f●are of God within us , yet we must renounce the Merit of all our vertues , and good deedes , as farre too weake and unsufficient to deserve remission of our Sinnes , and u● justification ; and therefore we must trust onely in Gods mercie , and the Merits of our only Saviour and justi●ier Iesus Christ. Neverthelesse , because Faith doth directly send us to Christ for our justification , and that by Faith given us of God , we emb●ace the promise of Gods mercie , and the remission of our Sinnes , ( which thing none other of our vertues or workes properly doth : ) therefore the Scripture useth to say , i that Faith without workes , and the ancient Fathers of the Church to the same purpose , that onely Faith doth justifie us . k Now for the Poynt of Merit , it is neither agreeable to Scripture nor reason , for we cannot Merit of him whom we gratifi● not ; we cannot gratifie a man with his owne ; now all our good is Gods already , his gift , his proprietie : What have we that we have not received ? saith the Apostle , l not our Talent onely , but the improvement also is his meere bounty ; there can be therefore no place for Merit . PA. Wee hold the ancient Romane Faith. PRO. That is not so , as may appeare by these instances . Saint Paul taught m his Romanes , that our Ele●●ion is of Gods free grace , and not ex operibus praevisis , of workes fore-seene . He taught , that we are justified by n Faith onely ; we conclude that we are justified by Fa●th without the work●s of the Law , which is all one as to say , a man is justified by Faith onely . He taught , that eternall life is the gift of God , o and therefore not due to the Merit of workes : that , the good workes of the Regenerate are not of their owne condignitie meritorious , p nor such as can deserve heaven , and the sufferings there expressed are Ma●tyrdomes sanctified by grace . He condemned Images , though made to resemble the true God ; and taught q that to bow the knee religiously to an Image , or to worship any creature , is meère Idolatry . He taught r that we must not pray unto any but unto God onely , in whom we beleeve : and therefore not to Saints or Angels , since we beleeve not in them . He taught that s concupiscence is a Sinne , even in the regenerate : * and Possevine the Iesuit confesseth , that Saint Paul called it so , but saith he , we may not call it so . He taught , t that the Imputed righteousnesse of Christ , is that onely that maketh us just before God. Thus taught Saint Paul , thus the ancient Romanes beleeved : from this Faith our latter Romanists are departed . Here then let the Reader judge , whether it be likely that Saint Paul , who ( as Theodoret x saith ) delivered doctrine of all sorts , and very exactly handled the Points thereof , should neverthelesse ( writing at large to the Romane Church ) not once mention those maine points , wherein the life of Poperie consists ; namely , the Popes Monarchical Iurisdiction , Transubstantiation , Communion in one kinde , Service in an unknowne tongue , Popes pardons , Image worship , and the like , if the Church of Rome were then the same that now a dayes it is . Now if these points mentioned , were no Articles of Faith in the ancient Romane Church , in Saint Pauls dayes , when their Faith was spoken of throughout the whole world ; y then they be not Articles of Faith at this day , but onely Additions to the rule of Faith , such as the corruption of the times hath patched up , and pieced it withall : for it is a ruled case in the z Schooles , that the body of Religion may grow in respect of farther Explanations , but it cannot increase in Substantiall points ; even as a child ( as Vicentius Lirinensis a ●aith ) though he grow in stature , yet hath he no more limbs , when he becommeth a man , than he had when he was a child ; so the Church hath no more parts , or Articles of Faith in her riper age , than she had in her infancie , and by this rule , new Rome is a Monster , if she have more ●word o● li●bs of Faith now in her declining age , than ancient Rome had in her flourishing age . And herein we challenge our adversaries to shew the body of their Religion pe●fited in this first and purest age , what time the Church was in her vigour , and the Scripture Canon finished and consigned : but they dare not be tried by the booke of Scripture . Now for us , we willingly put our cause to bee tried by that honourable and unpartiall Iury of Christ and his twelve Apostles , and the Evidence that shall be given by the testimonie , and vivâ voce , of holy Scripture ; but they turne their backs , and fly from this triall . But I proceed , and come to Ioseph of Arimathea , whom I named for one of our Ilands speciall Benefactors ; it was this Ioseph ( as our best Antiquaries say c ) that together with twelve other Disciples his Assistants , came out of France into Britaine , and preached the Christian Faith in the Western part of this Iland , now called Glastenbury ; which place in ancient Charters , was termed the Grave of the Saints , the Mother Church , the Disciples foundation : whereby it is very likely , that our land was first converted by Ioseph of Arimathea being sent hither by S. Phillip , & not from S. Peter , and that not from Rome , but from Arimathea , which was not farre from Hierusalem , so that Hierusalem is the Mother of us all , as both Hierome d and Theodoret e say . And this is the rather probable , because that upon Austin the Monks comming into England , the British Bishops observed their Easter , and other points of difference , according to the Gre●ke or Easterne Church , and not after the Romane Westerne Church ; which makes it probable , that our first conversion came from the Christian converted Iewes , or Grecians , and not from the Romanes ; but howsoever it were , or whence-soever they came , wee blesse God for the great worke of our conversion . THE SECOND CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 100. to 200. PAPIST . WHom doe you name in this Age ? PROTESTANT . In this Age lived Hegesippus of the Iewish Nation , afterwards converted to Christianitie . Melito Bishop of Sardis : Iustine Martyr , who , of a Philosopher , became both a Christian and a Martyr . Now also lived Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in France , sometimes Scholler to Polycarp , and both of them Martyred fo● the name of Christ ; of this Polycarp , Bishop of Smyrna it is recorded , a that being urged by the Romane Deputie to deny Christ , he stoutly replied on this manner : I have served him these foure-score and six yeares , and he hath not hurt me , and shall I now deny him ? Now also lived Clemens Alexandrinus , who was Scholler to one Pantenus , these two seeme to be the Authors of Vniversities and Colledges , for they taught the Grounds of Religion , not by Sermons and Homilies to the people , but by Catecheticall doctrine to the Learned in the Schooles . Now that in point of doctrine we consent with the Worthies of this Age , it may appea●e by the testimonie of Iren●us , a Disciple of those that heard Saint Iohn the Apostle , for he b layeth downe no other Articles of Faith , and Grounds of Religion then our ordinarie Catechisme teacheth : besides he sheweth that in the unitie of that Faith the Churches of Germany , Spain , France , the East , Aegypt , Libya , and all the World , were founded , and therein sweetly accorded : as if they had al dwelt in one house , all had had but one soule , and one heart , and one mouth . c The like doth his contemporary Tertullian , he gives the fundamentall points of Religion , gathered out of the Scriptures , and delivered by the Churches , the same which our Church delivereth , and no other for the Rule of Faith. Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie , and Canon . Irenaeus saith , d The Scriptures are perfect , as spoken from the Word of God , and his Spirit : and Erasmus observes , that Irenaeus fought against the troupes of Heretikes , onely by the forces and strength of Scripture , indeed he sometimes chargeth them with the Churches tradition , ( wounding them with their owne weapon : ) but this was with such undoubted tradition , as were in his time thought to bee Apostolike , which he might easily discerne living so neere the Apos●les dayes . Melito , Bishop of Sardis , being desired by Onesimus to send him a Catalogue of the Bookes of the Old Testament , f makes no mention of Iudith , Tobit , Ecclesiasticus , nor the Maccabees : and yet he profes●eth that he made very diligent search to set downe a perfect Cannon thereof . And this is likewise confessed by Bellarmine ; many ancients g ( saith he ) as namely Melito● did follow the Hebrew Canon of the Iewes . Of Communion under both kinds ; and number of Sacraments . Iustin Martyr saith , h they which are called Deacons among us give to every one that is present of the consecrated Bread & Wine● adding withal , i as Christ cōmanded them : now these words which mention Christs Commandement , k Bellarmine would haue to belong to the Consecration only , & not to the Communion ; whereas I●stin extends Christs precept to both , both being injoyned in that precept , doe this in remembrance of me : so that we have both Christs precept , and this Ages practice for our Communion in both . Clemens Alexandrinus wrote a booke against the Gentiles , which he calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( as ye would say ) woven after the manner of coverings , mixed with the testimonies of Scriptures , Poets , Philosophers , and Histories , and therein he hath these words : l When they distribute the Holy Eucharist , as the custome is , they permit every one of the people to take a part or portion thereof : and what he meaneth by Eucharist , himselfe explaineth , saying , m the mingling of the drinke and of the Water and the Word , is that which we call the Eucharist : so that according to him , not Bread onely , but Bread and Wine is the Eucharist , and of this every one of the people participated in his time , and therefore all dranke of the Cup. Iustine Martyr in his Apologie for the Christians n specifies no other Sacraments , than Baptisme , and the Lords Supper ; and yet in that treatise of his , he was justly occasioned to mention the Sacraments of the Church ; and there he relates the manner of their Church-service , Liturgies , and Commnuion : so that there had beene a fit place for him to have named those other five , if the Church had then knowne them . Of the Eucharist . That the substance of Bread and Wine , remaineth in the Sacrament after the words of Consecration , albeit the use of the elements bee changed , is cleere by the Fathers of this Age. Iustine Martyr saith , o that the elements of Bread and Wine in the Sacrament of the Supper , are made flesh , and the bloud of Iesus , in that same manner that the eternall Word of God was made flesh : but so it is , that the substance of the Divine nature , neither evanished nor yet was changed into the substance of flesh : and in like manner , the Bread is made the Body of Christ , neither by evanishing of the substance thereof , nor yet by changing the substance thereof into another substance . Iustine Martyr telleth us , that the Bread and the Wine , even that p sanctified food wherewith our bloud and flesh by conversion are nourished , is that which we are taught to be the flesh and bloud of Iesus incarnate . Our Lord , saith Clemens of Alexandria , q did blesse Wine , when he said , take , drinke , this is my bloud , the bloud of the Vine . Irenaeus saith , that our Lord , taking Bread of that condition , which is usuall among us , confessed it to be his Body : and s the Cup likewise containing that creature which is usuall among us , his bloud : so that in their construction , it was Bread and Wine which Christ called his Body ; it was Bread in substance , mate●iall Bread , and the Body of the Lord in signification , and Sacramentall relation . The Lord called Bread his body , now since Bread could not be his body substantially , it must needs be , it was onely his body Sacramentally . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Concerning the use of Images , we find that in these best & ancient times , Christians were so far from bringing them into their Churches , that some of them would not so much as admit the Art it selfe of making them , so jealous were they of the danger , and carefull for the prevention of deceipt , whereby the simple might any way be drawn on to the adoring of them : we are plainly fo●bidden , saith Clemens Alexandrinus , t to exercise that deceitfull Art ; for the Prophet saith , Thou shalt not make the likenesse of any thing , either in the Heaven , or in the Earth beneath . u Moses commandeth men to make no Image , that should represent God by Art , x for in truth , an Image is a dead matter , formed by the hand of an artificer , but we have no sensible Image made of any sensible matter , but such an Image as is to be conceived with the understanding , y yea but thine Images are of Gold : be it so : now I pray thee , what is Gold , or Silver , Iron , Brasse , Ivorie , the Adamant , Diamond , or Precious Stones ? Are they not terra et ex terrâ , are they ought but Earth and made of the Earth ? now being nothing else but a piec● of more refined Earth , I have learned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , terram calcare , non colere ; to walke on the Earth , and not to worship it ; to set my foote on it , not to bow my knee to it . And thus farre Clement of Alexandria , holding it a monstrous thing to bow downe to a stock or a stone . Irenaeus reckons it among the abuses of the Gnostikes , z that they had certaine painted Images , and others made of other stuffe , saying , that it was the Picture of Christ made by Pilate . When the Emperour Adrian , in favour of the Christians a had commanded that in every City , Churches should be built without Images , which at this day are called Adrians Temples , because they have no Gods in them ; which they said he made for that end : to wit , to pleasure the Christians ; it was presently conceived , that he prepared those Temples for Christ , as Aelius Lampridius noteh , in the life of Alexander Severus : which is an evident Argument , that it was not the use of Christians in those dayes to have any Images in their Churches . Learned Master Casa●bone in his notes upon this place of Lampridius , b thinketh that this story is rather to be referred to Tiberius the Emperour , ●han to Hadrian : and that Adrian causd Temples to be dedicated to his owne name , and th●se Temples , Adrian being prevented by death , remained unfinished , and without any Images at all : whence it came to passe , that many w●n thought that Adrian built those Temples not to himselfe , but unto Christ , and with these agreeth Lampridius● as one who knew , that which none could then be ignorant of , that both the Iewes in the Temple at Hierusalem did worship God without Images and Pictures , as both Strabo and Dio write , and that in their dayes the Christian Churches were such , as afterwards Saint Austine reports them to have beene in his dayes . Saint Austin upon the hundred and thirteenth Psalme , expounding those words of David , that Idols have a mouth and speake not , makes this objection , that the Church hath also divers instruments and vessels made of gold and silver , for the use of celebrating the Sacraments : but he answers , have these instruments mouths and speake not , eyes and see not ? doe we addresse our prayers to them ? now surely he could not have spoken thus , if he had Images in Churches , or if Images had bin a part of the Churches Vtensils and moveables in his dayes . Concerning Prayer to Saints , Iustine Martyr , Clemens Alexandrinus , and Tertullian have reported the publike formes of Christian service , and Religious excercises of the Primitive Christians , and yet make no mention of Prayer to Saints , or Angels , but onely of Prayer directed to God in the name and mediation of Christ alone . Irenaeus tels us , d that in his dayes the Church , per universum mundum , Irenaeus●aith ●aith not ( as e Fevardentius , and the Papists now a dayes would teach him ) that the Heretikes called upon false and imaginary Saints and Angels , and the Church upon the true Saints , and holy Angels ; but this he saith , that the Church called upon God in Christ Iesus . Eusebius in his Storie , setteth downe Verbatim a long Prayer used by Polycarp the Martyr , at the time of his suffering , wherin , if Invocation of Saints had beene reputed any part of Christian devotion in those dayes , he would undoubtedly in so great perill and at his dea●h , have recommended himselfe to God by the Prayers and Merits of Saints : but his forme of Praier is Protestant-like , tendered to God himselfe only by the mediation of Christ , concluding his Prayer in this manner : f therefore in all things I Praise thee , I blesse thee , I Glorifie thee through the eternall Priest [ of our profession ] Iesus Christ thy beloved Sonne , to whom with thee , O Father , and the Holy Ghost , be all Glory , now and for ever . Amen . When the people of the Church of Smyrna desired to have the body , or bones of their Martyred● Bishop Polycarp to buriall , the Iewes perswaded the Governour not to grant it , for that then the Christians would leave Christ , and worship the body of Polycarp : to which surmise they re●urne this answer : g we can never be induced either to forsake Christ , which hath suffered for all that are saved in the World , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * ] or to worship any other for him , being the Sonne of God [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] wee adore him ; but the Martyrs , as the Disciples and followers of the Lord [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] them wee love worthily . Now when they say , that they cannot worship any other : our learned and divine Antiquarie Doctour Vsher h observeth , that the Latine Edition of theirs , which was wont to be publikely read in these Churches of the West , expresseth their meaning in this manner : i Wee Christians can never leave Christ , who did vouchsafe to suffer so great things for our Sinnes , nor impart the supplication of Prayer unto any other . PAP . Irenaeus termeth the blessed Virgin k the Advocate of Eve. PRO. Indeed Bellarmine l cryeth up this place with a quid clarius ? what can be said more plainely ? and Fevardentius , answerable to his name , falls not upon Gallasius about this place . Now Irenaeus his meaning ( as elswhere he expresseth himselfe , m ) is this , and no more , that as by Eva Sinne came into the World , and by Sinne death ; so by the Virgins meanes , life and salvation instrumentally , in that she was that chosen vessell of the Holy Ghost , to beare him in her wombe , who by taking flesh of her , redeemed us from the curse of death . And thus she was the Advocate or Comforter of Evah and her children , by bearing Christ , and not because she was invocated , as a mediatour , after her death by Evahs children . Of Faith and Merit . Irenaeus ( as Chemnitius observeth n ) though he speake not expressely of Sola Fides , yet he useth termes equivalent to that exclusive particle : saying that there is no way to be saved from the sting of that old Serpent the Devill , but by beleeving in Christ. The Fathers of this Age , the most of them alleaged ( if not all o ) wrote in Greeke , and could not understand Merit . And Polycarp the Martyr in his Prayer above mentioned , useth the terme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not for to deserve , but for to attaine , procure , or find favour . I thanke thee O Father ( saith he p ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that thou hast graciouslie vouchsafed this day and this houre to allot me a portion among the number of Martyrs . Now surely had the doctrine of Merit beene Catholike in his dayes , he would doubtlesse being now in extremis , and upon his fiery tryall , have recommended himselfe to God by the Prayers and Merits of Saints ; but he neither pleades his owne , nor others Merits , none but Chaists . In this Age Polycrates Bishop of Ephesu● , and other Easte●ne Bishops in Asia , withstood the Pope about keeping the Feast of Easter ; q they prooved their custome to be received from Saint Iohn , and that it was practised and continued by Polycarp the Martyr , and others . This did so vex Pope Victor , as that he excommunicated the Churches of Asia r : neither did he revoke his s censure for ought that Bellarmine can find : and yet Irenaeus a godly Bishop of Lyons in France , sharply rebuked t the Pope for troubling the peace of the Church : yea P●lycrates stood at defiance with the Pope , and contemned his threates , u to wit , excommunications . PA. This was no great difference . PRO. If it were a matter of small weight , why then would the Pope excommunicate so many famous Churches for dissenting from him therein ? Besides , Bellarmine saith , x that the Pope conceived that this difference might breede heresie ; belike then he thought it a matter of consequence . Howsoever by this oposition to the See of Rome we may observe : that had those ancient Churches of Asia acknowledged the Popes Supremacie , they would not have thus opposed his Constitutions , nor sleighted his Censures . In this Age also I find that when Lucius a Christian Prince in this our Britaine , sent to Pope Elentherius , to receive some Lawes thence , the Bishop returned him this Answer , as appeares by a Letter or Epistle usually inserted y amongst the Lawes of Saint Edward the Confess●ur : z There are already within your owne Kingdome the Old and New Testament , out of which by the Councell of your Kingdome , you may take a Law to Governe your people , for you are the Vicar of Christ within your own kingdom . Whence we may observe , that ( howsoever the Papists now adayes labour to prove a the Popes Supremacie , by his giving of Lawes , and inflicting his Censures on others , ) yet in these ancient times , even by the Popes owne acknowledgement , the King was held to be Supreame Governour within his owne Kingdome . PA. Belike then , Britaine was now Converted to the Faith. PRO. It was converted before this time , for in the Raigne of this Lucius , b lived those two learned British Divines , Elvanus of Glastenbury , and Medvinus of Wells ; and these two were sent by King Lucius to the Bishop of Rome , to desire a supply of Preachers to assist the Britaines ; and with them returned Faganus and Damianus , and these jointly with the Britaines , preached the Gospell , and Baptised amongst the Britaines , whereby many were daily drawne to the Fa●th of Christ , and the Temples of the heathenish Priests their Flamines , and Archflamines ( as they termed them ) were converted into so many Bishops , and Archbishops Sees ; as the Monke of Chester , Ranulphus Higden , c reports . Neither yet is this to be called a conversion of our Iland , but rather a new supply of Preachers● for Iohn Capgrave a Domynick● Frier , ( one whom d Parsons commends for a Learned man ) reports , that Elvanus the Britaine , had dispersed thorow the wilde fields of Britaine , those seeds of the Gospel , that Ioseph of Arimathea had formerly e sowne , and that the Pope made Elvanus Bishop in Britaine , and Medvinus a Doctour to preach the Faith of Christ throughout the whole Iland ; which sheweth that when they were sent Ambassadours to to Ele●therius Bishop of Rome , they were then no novices , but learned and practised Divines , as one of their owne Historians f calleth them . THE THIRD CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 200. to 300. PAPIST . WHom name you in this Age ? PROTESTANT . In this Age there flourished Tertullian , Origen , and Saint Cyprian ; now also lived Minutius Felix a famous Lawyer in Rome , Arnobius and his eloquent Scholler Lactantius . Tertullian was a man of a quicke and pregnant wit ; hee wrote learned and strong Apologies in the behalfe of Christians ; Cyprian read daily some part of his writings , and so reverenced him , that hee used to say to his Secretary , a Da magistrum , helpe me to my Tutour , reach me my master ; meaning Tertullian : afterwards , through spight of the Roman Clergie , hee revolted to the Montanists , and was taken up with their idle Prophecies , and Revelations . Origen was in this his age , a mirrour of piety , and of learning of all sorts , both divine and humane ; he conferred the Hebrew text , b with the Greeke translations , not onely of the Septuagints , but also the translations of Aquila , Theodosion , and Symmachus ; hee found out other editions also , which hee set forth and called them Octupla or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because every page contayned eight columnes , or severall translations , such as were then in estimation : hee was of so happy a memory , that hee had the Bible without booke ; c and could at the sam● time dictate unto seven severall Clarkes or Notaries : d hee was of such esteeme , that divers would say , e Malle se cum Origene errare , quàm cum alijs ver● sentire ; that they had rather erre with Origen , than thinke aright with others : hee exhorted others to Martyrdome , and from his child-hood was himselfe desirous of the honour thereof ; but in the seventh persecution under Decius hee fainted , and his heart was so overset with feare to have his chaste body defiled with an ugly Ethiopian , that hee chose rather to offer incense to the Idoll , then to bee so filthily abused ; for this cause hee was excommunicated by the Church of Alexandria , and for very shame fled to Iudea , wher● he was not only gladly received , but also requested publikely to preach at Hierusalem : But so it was , f falling upon that place of the Psalmist ; Vnto the ungodly saith God ; why doest thou preach my Lawes , and takest my Covenant in thy mouth ? whereas thou hatest to bee reformed , and hast cast my words behind thee : [ Psalm . 50.16.17 . ] These wo●ds so deepely wounded his heart with griefe , that hee closed the booke , and sate downe and wept , and all the congregation wept with him . In expounding the Scriptures , hee was curious in searching out of Allegories ; and yet falling on that place Math. 19.12 . Some have gelded themselves for the kingdome of heaven , hee tooke those words literally , and gelded himselfe , to the end hee might live without all suspition of uncleannesse : g whereas hee expounded almost all the rest of the Scriptures figuratively . Hee held a fond opinion , concerning the paines of devils , and wicked men , after long torments to bee finished . It is usually said of him , Vbi bene scripsit , nem● melius , ubi malè , nemo pejus : where hee wrote well● n●ne better ; so that wee may say of him , as Ieremy of his figs , the good , none better , the evill , non● worse , Ier. 24.2 . Cypria●● was a learned godly Bishop , and glorious Martyr , he erred ( indeed ) in that he would have had , such as had beene baptized by Heretikes , if afterwards they returned to the true Church , to bee rebaptized : yet he was not obstinate in his errour : hee was as A●stin saith of him , h not onely learned , but docible , and willing to bee learned ; and that i hee would most easily have altered his opinion , had this question in his life time beene debated by such learned and holy men , as afterwards it was : so that S. Austin makes this observation touching Cyprians errour ; k hee therefore saw not this one truth touching Rebaptization , that others might see in him a more eminent and excellent truth ; to wit , his humilitie , modestie , and ch●ritie . Of the Scriptures sufficiencie and Canon . Tertullian , though hee stood for Ceremoniall traditions unwritten , and for Doctrinall traditions which were first delivered from the Apostles by word of mouth , and afterwards committed to writing ; yet dealing with Hermogenes the Hereticke in a question concerning the faith , ( whether all things at the beginning were made of nothing ? ) presseth him with an Argument ab Authoritate negativè ; Whether all things were made of any subject matter , I have l as yet read no where ( saith hee ) Let those of Hermogenes his shop shew that it is written : if it bee not written , let them feare that w●e which is allotted to such as adde or take away : but for himselfe hee professeth , that m hee adoreth the fulnesse of the Scripture . And why may not wee also argue negatively , touching divers Tenets of Poperie ? that from the beginning it was not so , Math. 19.8 . In the two Testaments ( saith Origen n ) eve●y word that appertaineth to God may bee required and discussed ; and all knowledge of things out of them may be understood : but if any thing doe remaine , which the holy Scripture doth not determine ; no other third Scripture ought to be received for to authorize any knowl●dge . Origen in his exposition upon the first Psalme , faith , w●e may not bee ignorant , there are two and twenty bookes of the old Testament after the Hebrewes ; which is the number of the Letters among them . This is likewise witnessed by Eusebius , o that as Origen received the Canon of the Iewes , so likewise he reiected those sixe bookes which wee terme Apocriphall with the Iewes . Of Communion under both ; and the number of Sacraments . Tertullian speaking in generall of Christians , saith , p the flesh feedeth upon the body and blood of Christ , that the soule may be fat●ed , as it were of God : hee speakes of the body and blood of Christ as distinct things ; saying , Corpore & sanguine ; and elsewhere he mentions the Cup given to a Lay-woman , saying , q from whose hands shall shee desire the Sacramentall Bread , of whose Cup shall shee participate ? hee speaketh of a Christian woman married to an Infidell , and sheweth the inconvenience of such a match , whereby the faithfull wife was like to bee debarred of the comfort of receiving the Sacrament , and drinking of the Lords Cup. Origen maketh this question ; r What people is it , that is accustomed to drinke blood ? and hee answereth the faithfull people . Hereunto Bellarmine sai●h ; s the people did drinke , but they had no comm●nd so to doe ; where hee grants us , that communicating under both kinds , was the Agend or Church practise in this age : besides , Origen in this very place alleadgeth Christs praecept for the Cup out of the sixt of Iohn . Cyprian speaking of such as in time of pers●cution , had lapsed and not stucke to the truth , and ther●upon were barred from the Communion , hee desires that upon their repentance they may bee admitted , and hee gives this reason : t How shall wee sit them for the Cup of Martyrdome , if before wee admit them not by right of Communion to drinke of the Lords cup in the Church ? And againe ; u Because some men out of ignorance , or simplicity in Sanctifying the Cup of the Lord , and ministring it to the people ; doe not that which Iesus Christ our Lord and God , the Authour and Institutour of this Sacrifice did and taught : Where albeit the maine scope of the Epistle bee , to prove the necessity of administring the Sacrament in Wine , and not in meere water , as the Aquarij did ; yet on the bye he discovers the practice of the Church for both kinds ; and saith expressely , that the Cup was ministred , or delivered to the people . Tertullian , in divers places x of his works acknowledgeth the same Sacraments with us , to wit , Baptisme , and the Lords Supper : and Beatus Rhenanus in his notes upon Tertullian , observes the same , and for this hee is brought under the Spanish inquisition , y and roughly entertained for his paines , as appeares by a Censure passed on him , and extant z in the latter end of Tertullians Works . Of the Eucharist . Tertullian disputing against Marcion , who denied that Christ had a true Body , confuteth him by a reason drawne from the Sacrament of the Supper , in this manner . A Figure of a Body , presupposeth a true Body , for of a shew or phantasie there can be no Figure . But Christ gave unto his Disciples a Figure of his Body . Therefore Christ had a true Body . Tertullians words are these : a Christ taking the Bread , and distributing it to his Disciples , made it his Body , saying , This is my Body , that is to say , this is a figure of my Body , but a figure it could not be , unlesse there were a Body of a truth and in deed : for a void thing as is a fantasie , can receive no figure . Here Tertullian affirmeth expressely of Bread , which he received into his hand , and distributed to his Disciples , that it it is a figure of Christs Body . The Rhemists answer , b that when some Fathers call the Bread , a figure or signe , they meane the outward formes of Bread and Wine ; but Tertullian proving the truth of Christs humanitie , by the Sacrament of the Supper , interprets these words , This is my Body , that is to say , the figure of my Body ; where , if by the figure of Christs Body , there were nothing else to be understood , but the formes , and outward shapes , the Here●ike upon this construction might have concluded for himselfe ; that the figure of his Body is nothing but a bare forme and shape of a thing , therefore he himselfe was nothing else but a ●hew of a Body , no true Body . Others expound Tertullians words in this sort : c The figure of my Body is my Body , or this Bread which under the Law , was a figure of my Body , is now my Body . But Tertullian both here , and in divers other places , d makes Bread the Subject of the proposition , this is my Body , now the Accidents and shape of Bread , are not Bread. In a word Tertullian sheweth that Christ called Bread his Body , in saying , this is my Body , as the Prophet Ieremie e called the body bread , in saying , Let us put wood upon his bread , meaning his Body ; shewing them both to be spoken equally in a figurative sense . For although Tertullian say , that the Bread of the Old Testament was a figure of Christs body , yet he denyeth not thereby that it is so in the new . The truth is , Tertullians exposition is so full for us , that Gregorie Valence rejects it . f Cyprian in the third Epistle of his second booke , saith , g Wee find that the Cup which the Lord offered was mixed , and that that which he called bloud was wine . So that if we aske Cyprian , what consecrated thing it was which Christ had in his hands , and gave to his Disciples ? he answereth , h it was bread and wine ; and not absolutely that , which hee gave up to be crucified on the Crosse by Souldiers , ( namely ) his body and bloud ; if againe we demand of Cyprian , why Christ called the bread which he had in his hand , his body ? he readily answereth , saying , the things signifying ( or signes ) are called by the same names , whereby the things signified are termed . Objection . Cyprian saith , that this bread is changed , not in shape , but in nature , naturâ mutatus , i and by the omnipotencie of God , is made flesh : now omnipotencie is not required to make a thing to be a signe significant . k Answer . Bellarmine saith , l Cyprian was not the Author of the booke De Coenâ Domini ; and he saith well , for these Sermons are extant m in All-Soules Colledge Library in Oxford , in an ancient Manuscript under the name of Arnoldus Bonavillacensis , and Dedicated not to Pope Cornelius , ( as these are pretended ) but to Adrian the fourth , about the yeare 1150 , the same time that Saint Bernard lived , and wrote an Epistle to this Arnoldus . But to let it passe for Cyprians ; it followes not , the bread is changed in nature , therefore it is Transubstantiated ; for every change of nature is not a change of substance ; nature implies qualities and properties , as well as substances : an evill man changeth his nature when he becomes a good man , yet is he not Transubstantiated ; bread is ch●nged when of common it becomes consecrated to an holy use , and office , and omnipotencie is required to make the dead and corruptible elements , a bit of bread , and a draught of wine , not onely significative , but truly exhibitive seales of the body and bloud of Christ ; and to elevate them so high as to bee chanels and effectuall instruments of Grace . Besides , the Author by the words naturâ mutatus , changed in na●ure , understood not a coporall change ; for in the same sentence he declareth himselfe , n by the example of Christs humanitie , which being personally united to the Deitie , is changed , but not so as that it looseth his naturall forme and substance . Origen against Christs Body going into the Draught . To proceed , Origen saith , o that meat which is Sanctified by Gods Word and Prayer , as touching the materiall part thereof , goeth into the belly , and is voyded into the draught ; but as touching the Prayer which is added according to the portion of Faith , it is made profitable ; neither is it the matter of bread , but the word spoken over it , which profits him that doth not unworthily eate thereof ; and these things I speake of the Typicall and Symbolicall bodie . Here wee see Origen disting●isheth betweene the Spirituall bread , which is the reall body of Christ , and the bread Sacramentall , saying , that not that body , but this bread goeth into the draught , or seege , which no sanctified heart can conceive of Christs body . Now whereas Bellarmine saith , p that the Accidents onely are called by Origen the materiall part : wee answer that it was never heard that meere Accidents were called ( which are Origens words in this place ) either meates or materialls . The truth is , this place of Origens touching the typical and symbolical body , is so cleere for us , that Sixtus Senensis growes jealous of it : to speake my mind freely ( saith he q ) I suspect this place to bee corrupted by Heretikes . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Concerning Images , Origen replieth thus to Celsus the Philosopher ; that r it is not a thing possible that one should know God , and Pray to Images ; and that Christians did s not esteeme these to be Divine Images , who used not to describe any figure of God , who was invisible and without all bodily shape , nor could endure to worship God with any such kinde of service as this was . In like manner , when the Gentiles demanded of the ancient Christians , t why they had no knowne Images ? Minutius Felix returnes them for answer againe : u What Image shall I make to God , when man himselfe , if thou rightly judge , is Gods Image ? and againe , x we neither worship , nor wish for Crosses : these holy Images which vaine men serve , want all sense , because they are earth . Now who is there that understandeth not , that it is un●it for an upright creature to be bowed downe , that he may worship the earth ? which for this cause is put under our feete , that it may be troden upon , not worshipped by us , y wherefore there is no doubt , that there is no Religion , wheresoever there is an Image : z thus farre Lactantius . Tertullian stood not onely against adoration of Images , but al●o against the very making of them ; a as formerly Clemens Alexandrinus had done . Concerning Saintly Invocation , Origen saith , b wee must endeavour to please God alone , and labour to have him Propitious unto us , procuring his good●will with godl●nesse , and all kind of vertue . And if Celsus will yet have us to procure the good●will of any others , after him that is God over all , let him consider , that as when the body is moved , the motion of the shadow thereof doth follow it ; so in like manner , having God favourable unto us , who is over all , it followeth that wee shall have all his friends , both Angels , and Soules , and Spirits loving unto us . And whereas Celsus had said of the Angels , that they belong to God , and in that respect , we are to pray unto them , that they may be favourable to us ; to this Origen answereth in this manner : c Away with Celsus his Councel , saying , that we must pray to Angels ; for we must pray to him alone who is God over all , and we must pray to the Word of God , his onely begotten , and the first borne of all creatures , and we must intreat him , that he as high Priest would present our Prayer ( when it comes to him ) unto his God , and our God. Objection . Iesuit Fisher saith , d that Origen in his writings upon Iob e and Numbers f taught Invocation of Saints . Answer . Bellarmine saith , g that Origen was not the author of those bookes upon Iob : for therein is mention made of the Homousians ( so the Arrians called the Orthodox beleevers ) . Now the Arrians rose not till after Origens time . Origen indeed upon the Canticles saith , h it is not inconvenient to say , that the Saints pray for us ; and in his Homily upon Iosuah , he ●aith , i I doe thinke thus , that all those Fathers who are departed this life before us , doe assist us with their Prayers : and in another place he saith , k if the Saints that have left the body , and be with Christ , doe any thing , and labour for us ; let this also remaine among the hidden things of God , and mysteries that are not to be committed unto writing . Now we yeeld that the Saints pray for us in generall ; yet hence it followeth not , that we should direct our prayers to them . Besides , Origens , if , and , as I suppose , and it is not inconvenient to say so ; these are but ●aint affirmations , shewing that he speaketh doubtfully , as on not fully resolved that it was so , and in conclusion determineth , si laborant pro nobis , if in particular , upon particulars , they doe labour for us , yet it is amongst Gods secrets , and a mysterie not to be committed to writing . Object . It appeareth by Saint Cyprian , l that the Faithfull us●d to covenant in their life time , that whether of them went to heaven before the other , he should pray for his surviving friend . Answer . Concerning Saint Cyprians conceipt , that the Saints after death remembred their old friends here , as having taken fresh and particular notice of their severall states , votes , and necessities ; it followeth not thence , that other Saints unacquainted with our particular desires and exigents , doe in particular , and by their merits , intercede for the living ; and though they should make sute on our behalfe , yet we have no warrant to pray to them . To close up this poynt of Prayer to Saints , Tertullian , Cyprian , Gregory Nyssen , with others , have written set Treatises de Oratione , of Prayer , and therein they deliver nothing touching this Saintly invocation : but teach us to regulate m all our Prayers according to that perfect patterne prescribed by our great Master ; wherein wee are required to direct our Petitions unto our Father which is in heaven : Math 6.9 . Luk. 11.2 . These things ( saith Tertullian n in his Apologie for the Christians in his time ) I may not pray for from any other , but from him of whom I know I shall obtayne them ; because both it is he who is alone able to give , and I am he unto whom it appertaines to obtaine that which is requested , being his servant , qui eum solum observo , who observe him alone . Of Faith and Merit . Origen saith o that Faith onely suffiseth to justification ; and concerning Merit , the same Origen saith , p I ca●●ardly hee perswaded , that there can bee any worke which may require the reward of God by way of debt , seeing this very thing it selfe , that wee can doe , or thinke , or speake any thing , we doe it by his gift and largesse . Objection . Did not Origen and Tertullian hold Purgatory ? Answer . Bellarmine indeed alledgeth q Tertullians Booke de Animâ for proofe of Purgatory ; but it is well knowne r that hee was led with the spirit of Montanus the Hereticke when he wrote that booke : and for Origen , Bellarmine s confesseth , hee was one of those who approoved so much of Purgatory , that he acknowledged no other paines after this life , but Purgatory penalties onely ; so that with him Hell and Purgatory were all one . Objection . In Saint Cyprians time , t the Martyrs intreated the Church for mitigation of penance imposed upon some offenders ; so that the satisfactions and suffering of Martyrs were communicated to others , and thereby their indulgence or pardon was procured . Answer . In those times of persecution , when many weake ones fell away from the open profession of the truth , and sacrifised to Idols , the Church sought by all meanes to honour Martyrdome , and incourage Christians thereunto ; so that upon the request of imprisoned Confessors , and designed Martyrs , the Bishops were wont to release some time the Canonicall censure injoyned by the Church : but these Martyrs did not he●eby think that they had made satisfaction for the temporall paine of Sin. Besides , this was spoken of living Martyrs , and not of Ma●tyrs defunct ; and of releasing censures , & forgiving faults in this world only , & not in Purgato●y . PA. Did not Cyprian hold Saint Peters Supremacie ? PRO. Hee might doe much with Pamelius his helpe , who hath taken the Marginall glosse , Petro primatus datur , and put u it into Cyprians text ; whereas Cyprian in the self●-same Treatise saith , x the rest of the Apostles were even the same that Peter was , being indued with the like fellowship of honour and power . Cyprian indeed reverenced the Sea of Rome , yet would hee have her keepe within h●r bounds , as appeares in the case of Fortu●atus , and others ; for so it was , Cyprian having censured them , and fearing lest they should flie to Rome , and there seeke favour and protection from that Sea , and so worke distraction between Rome and Carthage , makes a decree to prevent Appeales to other places , or claimes of other Bishops : and this Synodall Epistle is sent to Pope Corn●lius , perswading him not to admit of their complaints : Seeing that it is decreed of us all ( sayth S. Cyprian ) that it is meet and right that every mans cause be heard where the crime is committed ; and every Pastor hath committed unto him a portion of the Flocke ( of Christ ) which hee is to gov●rne , and whereof hee is to give an account unto God ; and they who are under our governement ought not to gad and wander , but they should pleade their cause there , where both Accusers and Witnesses may bee had ; except some few desperate and naughty fellowes thinke the authority of the Bishops of Africke , which have already judged and condemned them to be l●sse , meaning lesse than that of Cornelius , to whom they fled . Here wee finde opposition made to the Sea of Rome by that Catholike z Martyr Cyprian and others , even in the weighty poynt of Appeales : for so Bellarmine a makes appealing to Rome , and not appealing from thence , a main● proofe of the Popes Supremacie . Now to close up this age , and to looke a little homeward ; all this time the Christian Religion flourished quietly in Britaine , till in Dioclesians dayes ( which made vp the tenth persecution ) their Churches were demolished , their Bibles burnt , their Priests and their flocke murthered : for now was Saint Alban beheaded b at the City Verulam , now called after him Saint Albanes , of whom Fortunatus Presbyter an ancient Poet sayth : Albanum egregium foecunda Britannia prof●rt . Fruitfull Britaine bringeth forth , Alban , a Martyr of great worth . Hee was the first that in Britaine suffered death for Christ his sake ; whereupon he is called our Stephen , and the Proto-martyr of Britaine . In like sort his Teacher , or Instructer Amphibalus c was cruelly Martyred at the same place , being whipped about a stake , whereat his entrailes were tyed , and thus winding his bowels out of his body , was at last stoned to death ; so also was Iulius and Aaron d Martyred at Leicester ; and in Lichfield so many , that the place became another Colgatha , or field of dead corps , for which cause the City doth beare a field charged with many Martyrs diversly tortured , they beare it for their Seale of Armes , even unto this day , as Master Camden hath recorded . Now these Martyrs they suffered for that truth which we at this day hold ; and not for Popish Tenets , which then were not in being . We have now Surveyed the Fathers Faith , and practice of the Church , for the first three hundred yeares next after Christ ; and by this particular , ( as Hercules whole body was measured by the breadth of his foote ) the Reader may proportion what were the Churches Creed , and her Agends generally and constantly taught and practised in these times , and I doubt not but he shall find , that for substance of Religion they held as wee doe , and not as the moderne Papists doe ; so that in comparison of Originall , and Primitive Antiquity , Poperie is but noveltie , and this hath beene already shewne , when as we drew the Character of the three first Centuries . I will now onely give instance in the point of Indulgences , and shew , that in these best and ancient times , there were no such Popes pardons , as afterwards were marted . For in latter times we find it recorded in the Salisbury Primer , e that Iohn the two and twentieth , for the mumbling over of some short Prayers , granted a Pardon of no lesse , than a million of yeares . Besides , these three Prayers be written in the Chappel of the holy Crosse in Rome , who that devoutly say them , they shall obtaine ten hundred thousand yeares of Pardon for deadly sinne , granted by our Holy Father , Iohn the two and twentieth Pope of Rome : and of another Prayer to be said as one goes thorow a Church-yard , the same booke saith , as followeth : f Pope Iohn the twelfth granted to all that shal say the Prayer following , as they passe by any Church-yard , as many yeeres of Indulgences , as there have beene bodyes there buried since the Consecration of the said Church-yard . In the same booke , there is power given to one little prayer beginning with O bone Iesu , to change the paines of Hell into Purgatory , and after that againe , the paines of Purgatory , into the joyes of Heaven . This Prayer is written in a Table that hanged at Rome , in Saint Peters Church , neere to the high Altar , there , as our holy Father the Pope is wont to say Masse ; and who so that devoutly with a contrite heart daily say this Orizon , if he bee that day in the state of eternall damnation , then his eternall paine shall be changed him into temporall paine of Purgatorie , and if he have deserved the paine of Purgatorie , it shall bee forgotten and forgiven , through the infinite mercie of God. Now sure I thinke that Antiquitie cannot paralell such presidents as these . THE FOVRTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 400. to 500. PAPIST . WHat say you to this fourth Age ? PROTESTANT . This was a learned Age , a for now there lived Optatus Bishop of Milevis in Africa , and in Asia there lived Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus , Cyril Bishop of Hierusalem , Macharius the Monke , Basil the great ; the Christian Demosthenes , as Erasmus calls him b , Gregory Nazianzene sirnamed the Divine , and Grigory Nyssen brother to Saint Basil , these three were equall in time , deare friends , and of neere alliance ; now also lived the Hammer of the Arrian Heretickes Athanasius the great , Bishop of Alexandria , great indeed for his learning , for his vertue , for his labour , for his suffering , when almost the whole world was set against him ; but above all great for his Creed , the Athanasian Creed . He suffered much trouble for the truth , but God upheld him , so that he dyed in peace , full of dayes , after he had governed the Church of Al●xandria six and forty yeares : Nazianzene compared c him in time of adversity to the Adamant , for that no trouble could breake him ; and in time of prosperity to the Load-stone , for that hee allured the hearts of men , more intractable then Iron , to imbrace the Truth of God. In Europe there lived Hilarie Bishop of Poictiers in France , and Ambrose Bishop or Millaine ; Ambrose was a man of noble parentage , under the Emperour Valentinian hee was Governour of Liguria , he was chosen from a secular ●udge to bee Bishop of Millaine , and was faine to be christened before he could be consecrated , he was zealous and resolute , hee sharpely reproved Theodosius for the sl●ught●r of the innocent people of Thessalonica , hee was grievously troubled by the Lady Iustina , mother to Valentinian the second , he said to his friends that were about him at his death , d I have not so lived , that I am ashamed to live longer , nor yet feare I death , because I have a good Lord. Of the Scriptures sufficiencie . Athanasius saith , the holy Scriptures given by inspiration of God , are of themselves sufficient to the discoverie of truth ; now if they be ( as the word signifieth ) allsuf●icient to instruction , then must they needs be all sufficient to all instruction in the truth intended , and not onely sufficient for this or that point , as Bellarmine would have it f Saint Hilarie commendeth g the Emperour Constantius , for desiring the Faith to be ordered onely according to those things that be written : th● same Hilarie h assures us that in his dayes , the word of God did suffice the beleevers ; yea , what is there saith he , concerning mans salvation , that is not conteined in the word of the Evangelist ? what wants it , what obscuritie is there in it ? all things there are full and perfect . Saint Basil saith , i it is a manifest falling from the Faith , and an argument of arrogancie , either to reject any point of those things that are written , or to bring in any of those things that are not written . Gregory Nyssen layeth this for a ground , k which no man should contradict ; that in that onely the truth must be acknowledged , wherein the seale of the Scripture testimonie is to be seene . The same Father in an oration of his , calleth the Scripture , l an even , streight , and inflexible Rule ; neither ment●oneth he any more rules but this on● ; and adding the word ipsa to the Rule , he delareth the same to be an adaequate , and onely Rule . Of the Scripture Canon . The Councell of Laodicea saith , m we ought to reade onely the bookes of the Old and New Testament ; yea the same Councell recites onely those Canonicall bookes of Scripture which we allow , and the Canons of this Councell though a provinciall Councell , are confirmed by the sixt generall Councell in Trullo : now if it be replied , the Laodicean Councell excludes the Apocrypha , the Carthaginian Councell receives them , and both these were confirmed in the sixt generall Councell , held in the Palace called Trullo , and how can this stand together ? the matter is thus reconciled ; the Laodicean speakes of the Canon of Faith , the Carthaginian of the Canon of good manners ; to both which the sixt Councell subscribed in that sence , and we to it . To proceed , Hilary tells us ; n the Law of the Old Testament is conteined in two and twentie bookes , according to the number of the Hebrew letters ; and Athanasius saith the same , and as touching the Apocryphall bookes , as namely , the booke of Wisedome , Maccabees , and the rest , he saith ; o Libri non sunt Canonici ; they are read onely to the Caetechumens , ( or novices in Religion ) but are not Canonicall . Epiphanius after he had reckoned up the Canon of two and twentie bookes , censureth the bookes of Wisedome and Ecclesias●icus in these words ; o they are fit and profitable , but not reckoned amongst those bookes which are received by our Church ; and therefore were neither laid up with Aaron , nor in the Arke of the New Testament . Ruffinus , in his explanation of the Creede , which is found among Saint Cyprians workes , and so attributed to him , setteth downe the Catalogue , conteining all those bookes which we admit , secluding all those that are now in question ; wee must know ( saith he ) q that there be also other bookes , which are not Canonicall , but are called of our Ancestors , Ecclesiasticall , as is the Wisedome of Salomon , Ecclesiasticus , Tobias , Iudith , and the bookes of Maccabees ; all which they will indeed have to be read in the Church , but not to be alledged for Confirmation of Faith. To this testimonie of Ruffin , Canus a Popish writer thus replieth : r although Ruffin did affirme , that the bookes of Maccabees were to be rejected by the tradition of the Fathers , yet by the Readers leave , he was ignorant of that Tradition ; as if Canus a late writer , were better skilled in the Primitive tradition than Ruffinus , or Cyprian . Gregorie Nazianzen nameth s all the bookes that wee admit , save that he omitteth the booke of Hester , being misperswaded of the whole , by reason of those Apocryphall additions to it . Now Bellarmine would shift off such testimonies as these , by saying ; t it was no fault in them to reject these book●s , because no generall Councell in their dayes had decreed any thing touching them . But we aske how it came to passe , that so many Catholike Divines after this pretended decree of their Canon rejected these bookes , as others had done before ; for some in every Age rejected th●m . Of Communion under both ; and number of Sacraments . Gregory Nazianzene saith of his sister Gorgonia , in this manner : u if her hand had laid up any portion of the types or tokens of the precious body , and of the bloud : he saith , that his sister after she had communicated , she laid up some part of the Sacrament , of the body and bloud of Christ , now as she kept the consecrated bread in a cloth , so she might carry the wine in a viall ; howsoever this religious woman received in both kinds . The same Nazianzen bids , x reverence the Lords Table to which thou hast accesse , the bread whereof thou hast beene partaker , the cup which thou hast communicated , being initiated in the passions of Christ. Athanasius , being accused for breaking a Chalice , writeth thus ; y What manner of Cup ? or when ? or where was it broken ? in every house there are many Pots , any of which if a man breake , he committeth not sacriledge ; but if any man willingly break the sacred Chalice , he committs sacriledge ; but that Chalice is no where , but where there is a lawfull Bishop : This is the use destin'd to that Chalice , none other ; wherein you , according to institution , doe drinke unto , and before the Laity . This was the custome in Athanasius his dayes . Saint Ambrose speakes to a great secular Prince Theodosius in this sort ; z How dare you lift up to him those hands , from which the blood yet droppeth ? will you receive with them the sacred body of our Lord ? or how will you put in your mouth his precious bloud , who in the commanding fury of your wrath have wickedly shed so much innocent bloud ? The same Saint Ambrose , in his d Treatise that hee wholly set apart for the laying foorth of the Doctrine of the Sacraments , specifyeth not any other , than either those two of ours , Baptisme , and the Lords Supper ; and yet wee have of his ( as they are divided ) six● bookes de Sacramentis , of the Sacraments . And so I come to treat of the Sacrament Of the Eucharist . PA. You have produced Hilarie and Cyril of Hierusalem , on your side , whereas they make for us in the poynt of the Sacrament ; Saint H●larie sayth , nos verè verbum carnem cibo Dominico sumimus ; Hil. l. 8. de Trinitate . PRO. Hilaries testimony was much urged by Mr. Musket Priest , and was notably cleered by Doctour Featly , in the second dayes disputation ; now to the place alleadged he sayth , The Word truely became Flesh , truely , to wit , by Faith and Spiritually , not with the mouth , and carnally . Objection . These words of Hilarie , Sub Sacramento communicandae carnis , and the like following , nos verè sub mysterio carnem corporis sui sumimus , wee truely receive the Flesh of his body under a mystery , prove the reall presence of Christs flesh under the formes of bread and wine . Answer . Saint Hilarie , by the words , [ Sub Sacramento , and sub mysterio carnem sumimus ] , meaneth nothing , but that in a mystery , or Sacramentally , we eate the true flesh of the Sonne of God ; sub mysterio is no more than in mysterio , that is , mystically , under a similitude , in a similitude , or after a resemblance . Object . St. Hilarie sayth , in the booke alleadged [ de veritate carnis & sanguinis non est relictus ambigendi locus ] of the trueth of Christs flesh and bloud there is no place left for doubting . Answer . Neither doe we doubt of the truth of Christs body and bloud , but firmely believe the doctrine of the true Inca●nation of Christ. Objection . Hilarie saith [ in nobis carnalibus manentem per carnem Christum habemus ] we men consisting of flesh and bloud have Christ remayning in us by his fl●sh . Answer . So wee have by reason of our mysticall union with Christs flesh , and not by any corporall transubstantiation of our flesh into Christ. The same Hilarie saith [ nos in eo naturaliter inessemus , ipso in nobis naturaliter permanente ] Christ is naturally in us , and wee in him , but wee are not in him naturally or carnally by any transubstantiation , therefore neither is he so in us ; these termes then of Hila●ies , [ permanent●m in nobis carnaliter silium ] the sonne remayning in us carnally , note onely a greater and more reall union , than barely by consent or concord of will , such as the Arrians acknowledged onely betwixt the Father and the Sonne , denying an unitie of nature , purposely to avoid that text , I and the Father are one● Hilary speaking of this neere union , calleth it the mysterie of a true and naturall union , [ mysterium verae ac naturalis unitatis ] and so indeed it is , in respect of Christs inseparable union which hee hath with us by his incarnation , by which he is become flesh of our ●lesh , and bone of our bone ; and in respect of our mysticall union with him and his body , whereby wee become members of Christs body , and quickned by his spirit . Object . Saint Cyril in his fourth Catechisme saith , He that in the marriage of Cana changed water into wine , by his onely will , is not hee worthy that wee beleeve him that he hath changed wine into his blood ? Answer . S. Cyrils place maintaineth not Popish transubstantiation ; for in this , the shapes and accidents remaine , and the materiall substance is corrupted ; but in our Saviours miracle in the second of Saint Iohn , the shapes , accidents , and forme were changed , and the common materiall substance remained , Iohn 2.9 . Object . Cyril saith it is not simple bread and wine , it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ibid. Answer . Hee sheweth his meaning to be this , namely , that the consecrated bread , is not common , ordinary , and meere naturall bread ; but sanctified , elevated , and changed to supernaturall use and operation . And so I proceed . The Elements called Antitypes after Consecration . The Fathers of this age , treating of the Sacramentall Signes , call them Similitudes , correspondent types or figures of the body and blood of Christ ; the figure of the body and blood of the Lord Iesus , saith b Ambrose : and Nazianzene speakes ( as wee have heard ) of his sisters laying up some portion of the types or tokens of Christs precious body and blood ; and againe , c how durst I offer unto him the type of so great a mysterie ; in l●ke sort Cyril of Hierus●lem cals d them types and antitypes ; and they call the Symboles after Consecration [ Antitypes . ] Now that which is a figure , similitude , and representation of a thing , is not properly the same . PA. It followeth not e the Eucharist is termed the figure of Christs naturall body , therefore it is not substantially and properly his body . The figure of a thing may be the same with the thing figured . Christ Iesus is a figure of his Fathers substance , [ Hebr. 1.3 . ] and yet is the same substantially with the Father , Iohn 10.30 . PRO. There is such opposition of Relatives , as that the signe and the thing signified cannot bee the same in that very respect and point , wherein they are opposite : for the instance brought , it followeth thus ; the sonne is the cha●acter of his Fathers substance , ergo the Son is not the Father , though of the same substance , nor is the Father the Sonne : so must the opposition of necessity hold ; the Sacrament is the figure , signe , and representation of Christs body , ergo it is not the body of Christ , but sacramentally , and figuratively . In a word ; you say , that Christ is a Character , and figure of his Father , and yet of the same substance ; but to have spoken home to the matter in question , you should have said , that Christ a figure of the Fathers person , is yet the same person that the Father ; which is utterly false . To proc●ed , Saint Ambrose saith ; f if th●re bee such v●rtue in the words of our Lord , to make those things that were not , to begin to bee ; how much more powerfull is his word , that they remaine the same they were , and yet bee changed into another thing ? hee holdeth the bread and wine in the Lords Supper to remaine , to bee the same tha● they were ; therefore they are not changed in substance , for then they should not be the same they were ; yet hee saith they are changed into other , to wit , not in substance but in qualitie , use , and signification ; for so hee saith , g before the blessing of the heavenly words another kind is named ; after the Consecration , the body of Christ is signified . Now if by the consecrated bread in the Eucharist the body bee signified , then is not bread essentially the body . PA. Saint Ambrose in the ninth chapter of such as are newly instructed in the mysteries saith ; h Moses his word changed the water of Aegypt into blood ; if so great was the benediction of man , what may wee thinke of divine Consecration where the very words of our Saviour worke : hee saith also , i that by benediction or consecration the nature of the Elements in the Lords Supper is changed . PRO. Among the six or seaven examples bro●ght by Saint Ambrose , only two are substantiall , and the rest accidental , for in the place alledged , he addeth also these examples ; that Moses divided the Red Sea , that Iordan turned his cou●se , that the bitter waters of Mara were made sweet ; in all which workes of God there was no Transubstantiation ; for the waters and the Red Sea were the same in nature and substance , as they were before ; so that by these examples it appeareth , that notwithstanding Saint Ambrose say , the nature is changed , yet he meant a change in qualitie onely , and not in substance . And such a change there is in the Eucharist ; the Elements are changed , when of common and naturall creatures , they are made sacred , and become Channels , and Instruments of saving grace ; and such a change Ambrose meant ; for comparing these miracles of the Prophets , wherein God changed the nature of things , with the change that is wrought in the Sacrament , he saith , k that it is no lesse to adde some new things , unto things , than to change the nature of things , averring plainly thereby that the bread had received some new thing , without loosing the nature of bread ; and such a change is not strange , for thus a piece of waxe becomming the Kings Seale changeth it's nature without Transubstantiation . Besides , the Fathers use the like Tenour of speech of the Sacrament of Baptisme , and yet doe not hence inferre any Transubstantiation : they say , l the word of Christ is most efficacious to alter the propertie of naturall water , and to give regenerating force and vertue to it . Saint Ambrose saith , that in Baptisme man is changed , and made a new creature . Learne ( saith he ) m how the word of Christ is accustomed to change every creature , and when he will he altereth the course of nature . Saint Cyril saith , n the waters are changed into a divine nature . And Gregorie Nazianzene saith , o that by Baptisme we put on Christ , by Baptisme we are changed or transmuted into Christ. Now from hence we cannot infe●re that ei●her the water of Baptisme , or regenerate persons are changed by Transubstantiation ; the change is not corporall in either of the Sacraments , but mysticall in use and signification . In the Church ( saith p Macarius , Scholler to Saint Anthonie ) bread and wine is offered ; the type of his flesh and bloud ; and they which are partakers of the visible bread , doe Spiritually eate the flesh of the Lord. Now according to this Father , bread and wine are taken , bread and wine are offered ; and these be the types or tokens of the body and bloud : and that they be so called after Consecration , is likewise acknowledged by Bellarmine . q And we may farther observe that the words of Macarius are so cleere for the spirituall , and not corporall receiving ; as that some were faigne to set a Marginall glosse r upon Macarius his text . * Of Image-worship . The Councel of Elliberis in Granado in Spayne , * decreed s That no Pictures should or ought to be in the Church , lest that which is worshipped or adored , should be painted on walls . Now it will not serve to say , that the Councel onely forbad the painting of Images on Church-walls , where in time of persecution , or otherwise , they might be defaced ; as if they might be set or hung in tables ; for the Councels decree runs generally , saying , It is our mind that Pictures ought not to be in the Church . Now if it forbad the very being of them in Churches , then surely it utterly condemned their adoration . Melchior Canus chargeth this ancient Councel with impietie , t for making such a decree de tollendis Imaginibus . Saint Ambrose saith , u God would not have himselfe worshipped in stones : x the Church knoweth no vaine Idaea's , and divers figures of Images , but knoweth the true substance of the Trinity . The fact of Epiphanius ( which himselfe records y in his Epistle to Iohn Bishop of Hierusalem , translated by Saint z Hierome out of Greek into Latine ) is very famous in this case , namely , how himselfe found a Picture in the Church of the village of Anablatha , which ( though it were out of his owne Diocesse ) yet in an ho●y zeale he tore it , and wrote to the Bishop of the place , beseeching him that no such Pictures might bee hanged up , as being contrary to Religion . The words of Epiphanius are these : a I found there a vayle hanging at the doore of the Church dyed and painted , and having the Image as it were of Christ or some Saint ; for I doe not well remember whose Image it was : when therefore I saw this , that contrary to the authority of the Scriptures , the Image of a man was hanged up in the Church of Christ , I cut it , and gave counsel to the keepers of the place , that they should rather wrap and burie some poore dead man in it : and afterward hee intreateth the Bishop of Hierusalem ( under whose governement this Church was ) to give charge hereafter , b that such vayles as those which are repugnant to our Religion , should not be hanged up in the Church of Christ. I know indeed , that Iesuit Fisher would shuffle off this evidence , by saying , that it was the picture of some prophane Pagan ; b●t Epiphanius himselfe saith , it had imaginem quasi Christi , vel Sancti cujusdam , the image as it were of Christ , or of some Saint : surely therefore the Image went for Christs , or for some noted Saints , neither do●h he finde fault with the irresemblance , but with the Image , as such . Baronius saith , c they are rather the forged words of some Image-breakers , than of Epiphanius : Bellarmine would disproove them by sundry conjectures , which Master Rivet * rejects , and defe●d● the foresayd Epistle of Epiphanius , clearing it from all the Cardinal 's cavills : a●d surely if we observe Epiphanius his practice about the foresayd Image , and his Doctrine of Mariam nemo adoret , we may well thinke these two had both one Father . PA. The Idolatry forbidden in Scripture , and disliked by the Fathers , is such as was used by Iewes and Pagans ; and this wee Christians practise not . PRO. Indeed the Apostle , when hee disswadeth Christians from Idolatry , propounds the Iewes fall , saying , Neither be yee Idolaters , as some of them were [ 1 Cor. 10. 7 , 8. ] The like also hee addeth touching another sinne , Neither let us commit fornication , as some of them did : as well then might one pleade that Iewish or Heathenish fornication were onely reprehended , as Iewish or Heathenish Idolatry , it being a foule sinne , whether it bee committed by Iewe , Pagan , or Christian , and more haynous in the Christian , who professeth Christ , to practise that which Gods word condemneth in the Iewes and Pagans for Idolatry . PA. The Heathen held the Images themselves to be Gods , which is farre from our thought . PRO. Admit some of the simpler sort of the Heathen did so , what shall wee say of the Iewish Idolaters who erected the Golden calfe in the wildernesse ? can wee thinke that they were all so sencelesse , as to imagine that the calfe , which they knew was not at all in rerum naturâ , and had no being at that time , when they came out of Aegypt , should yet be that God which brought them out of Aegypt . [ Exod. 32.4 . ] And for the Heathen people , though they ( haply ) thought some divine Majestie and power was seated in the Images ; yet they were scarcely so rude as to thinke the Images which they adored , to be very God ; for thus we find them usually to answer in the writings of the Fathers : d Wee worship the Gods by the Images ; and , e I neither worship the Image , nor a Spirit in it , but by the bodily portraiture , I doe behold the signe of that thing which I ought to worship . PAP . Though the Heathen did not account the Image it selfe to be God ; yet were those Images set up to represent either things that had no being , or Devils , or false-Gods , and in that respect were Idols ; whereas we erect Images onely to the honour of the true God , and of his servants the Saints and Angels . PRO. Suppose that many of the Idolatrous Iewes and Heathens Images were such as you say they were , yet they were not all of them such : howsoever , Idolatry is committed by yielding adoration to an Image of the true God himselfe , as appeareth by the first Chapter of the Epistle to the Romanes , where the Apostle having said , that God shewed unto them that which might bee knowne of him ; and that the Invisible things of him , that is , his eternall power and Godhead , was manifested unto them by the creation of the World , and the contemplation of the creatures ; hee addeth presently , that God was sorely displeased with them , and therefore gave them up unto vile affections , because , They changed the Glory of that incorruptible God , into an Image made like unto corruptible men , and to birds , and foure-footed beasts , and creeping things : whereby it is evident , that the Idolatry condemned in the wisest Heathen , was the adoring of the invisible God , whom they acknowledged to be the Creatour of all things , in visible Images fashioned to the similitude of men and beast , as the admirably learned , Bishop Vsher hath observed f in his Sermon preached before the Commons House of Parliament in Saint Margarets Church at Westminster . Of Prayer to Saints . There wanted not some , who even in the Apostles daies under the pretence of g Humilitie , labored to bring into the Church the worshipping of Angels , which carried with it h a shew of Wisdome ( as Saint Paul speakes of it ; ) not much unlike that of the Papists , who teach their simple people , upon pretence of Humilitie , and their owne unworthinesse , to prepare the way to the Sonne , by the servants , the Saints and Angels ; this they counselled ( saith i Theodoret ) should be done , using humility , and saying , that the God of all was invisible and inaccessible ; and that it was fit men should get Gods favour by the meanes of Angels . And the same Theodoret saith k that they had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Oratories , or Chappels of Saint Michael . Now the Councel of Laodicea , to meete with this errour , solemnly decreed ; l that Christians ought not to forsake the Church of God , and goe and invocate Angels , and pronounced an Anathema against any that should be found to doe so , because ( say they ) He hath forsaken our Lord Iesus Christ , the Sonne of God , and given himselfe to Idolatry . And Theodoret mentions the Canon of this Councel , and declares the meaning of it in these words : m Whatsoever ye doe in word or deed , doe all in the name of the Lord Iesus , giving thanks to God , and the Father by him . — The Synod of Laodicea also following this Rule , and desiring to heale that old disease , made a Law , that they should not pray , unto Angels , nor forsake our Lord Iesus Christ : now there is the same reason of Saints , that there is of the Angels . PA. Iesuit Fisher in his Rejoynder to Doctor Whites Reply , the second and third point , saith , The Councel and Theodoret are thus to be understood , that Angels are not to be honoured as Gods. PRO. How appeareth it that Christians were so rude in those Ages , as to imagine that Angels were Gods ? or that sacrifices after the Pagan manner , were due to them ? It appeareth by Theodoret , that those whom he condemneth did not thinke the Angels to be Gods , but that they served them as ministring Spirits , whose service God had used for the publishing of the n Law. PA. Bellarmine saith ; o The Councel forbad all worship of Angels , called Latreia , as being proper unto God : but Binnius liketh p Baronius exposition better , who saith , The Councel onely forbad the religious worship of false and heathe●●sh Gods. PRO. Bellarmine doth wrong in restraining the Councels speech to a speciall kind of worship : for Theodoret saith generally , that the Councell forbad the worship of Angels . Neither did the Councell meane thereby to forbid the religious worship of false and heathenish Gods ; for Theodoret mentioneth the Oratories of Saint Michael , and of such Angels as were supposed to give the Law , and therefore were not ill Angels . Baronius perceiving that the place in Theodoret toucheth the Papists to the quicke , telleth us plainely , q That Theodoret , by his leave , did not well understand the meaning of Pauls words : and that those Oratories of Saint Michael were anciently erected by Catholikes ; as if Baronius a man of yesterday , at Rome could tell better what was long since done in Asia , than Theodoret a Greeke Father , and an ancient Father and Bishop , living above twelve hundred yeares agoe , not farre from those parts , where these things were done . Others , to avoid the force of the canon , have corrupted the Councell , making this reading ; r That men should not leave the Church , to pray in angles or corners ; turning Angelos into Angulos , Angels into Angles or corners ; but Veritas non quaerit angulos , the truth will admit none of these corners ; neither hath the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any affinitie at all with corners . To proceed , the Fathers of this age affirme , that religious prayer is a proper worship belonging to the sacred Trinitie ; and by this argument [ Rom. 10 . 14● ] conclude against the Arrians and Macedonians , that Christ Iesus and the Holy Ghost are truely God , because Christians believe in them , pray unto them , & they accept their petitions . Athanasius saith ; s No man would ●ver pray to receive any thing from the Father , and from the Angels , or from any of the other creatures . Gregory Nyssen saith : t Wee are taught to worship and adore , that nature onely which is uncreated ; u and accordingly Antonius in his Melissa hath set downe the foresaid sentence ; but the Spanish Inquisitors have commanded x that the word Onely should bee blotted out of his writings : Now the word Onely , is the onely principall word , whereupon the whole sentence dependeth . In like sort , where Athanasius saith , that y God onely is to bee worshipped , that the Creature is not to adore the creature , that neither men , nor Angels are to be worshipped . The popish Index ( as is already observed in the Preface to this Treatise ) hath razed z these sayings out of his Index , or table , which yet remaine in the text . Epiphanius tels us of some superstitious women that were wont to offer up a Cake to the blessed Virgin , and this vanitie hee calleth a the womans Heresie , because that sexe mostly vsed it , but hee reproves them saying ; b Let Mary bee in honour , but let the Father , and the Sonne , and the Holy Ghost bee worshipped , let no man worship or adore Mary ; and indeed hee bends all his force against that point of adoring ; no lesse then in sixe severall places , saying ; [ Mariam nemo adoret . ] Now Adoration being condemned , it can not bee conceived , that adoring her , and offering to her , they prayed not also to her , and required of her , somewhat againe . All which Epiphanius reprooves . Saint Ambrose speaking of our Advocate , or Master of Requests , saying ; c What is so proper to Christ , as to stand by God the Father for an Advocate of the people ? d and elsewhere hee saith , Tu solus Domine invocandus es , thou Lord onely art to bee invocated : and whereas there were some that about this time sued unto Saints and Angels , saying ; Wee have recourse to Angels and Saints with devotion and humilitie , that by their Interc●ssion God may bee more favourable unto us . Saint Ambrose ( or who ev●r else was author of those Commentaries upon Saint Pauls Epistles that are framed among his workes ) hath well m●t with them , calling it , f A miserable excuse , in that they thinke to goe to God by these , as men goe to the King by an Of●icer : Goe to ( saith he ) g is any man so mad , or so unmindfull of his salvation , as to give the Kings honour to an Officer ? for therefore doe men goe to the King by Tribunes or Officers , because the King is but a man , and knoweth not to whom to commit the state of the Common wealth : but to procure the favour of God , from whom nothing is hid ( for he k●oweth the works of all men ) wee need no spokesman but a devout mind : for wheresoever such a one shall speake unto him , he will answer him . This testimonie is so full , that it makes mee remember what I have seene written with his owne hand , in Saint Ambrose his Margent by Archbishop Hutton , ( one that by Campians testimony h was well verst in the Fathers ) namely , hoc testimonium jugulat pontificios , this evidence choakes the Papists . Reply . The place alleadged is none of Saint Ambroses ; neither was hee the Authour of those Commentaries on Saint Paul's Epistles i . Answer . Wee are not so streightned , that wee need make any great reckoning whether they bee his or no ; for wee have alleadged other places of Saint Ambrose out of his workes , of which there is no question . And yet they are usually cited under Saint Ambrose his name : Bellarmine in five severall places alleadgeth them , k and in particular this Commentary on the Romanes ; and the Rhemists they vouch them too : and when any thing in these Commentaries seeme to make for them , then they cry them up and say , l Beatus Ambrosius ; and when they would thence proove the Pope to bee the ruler of the whole Church , then the stile runnes Blessed S●int Ambrose in his Commentaries saith thus , and thus : and then Saint Ambrose is the Authour of them . Reply . Where Saint Ambrose saith , Thou Lord onely art to bee invocated , it is ( saith Cardinall Perron ) very true , of Invocation absolute , soveraigne , and finall . Answer . This is as much as wee desire , saith our acute and learned Bishop of Winchester Doctor m Andrewes ; for as for their relative and subalterne Invocation , wee know them not ; and it is likely the Fathers knew not of any such oblique meanes to helpe men in their devotions : for if they had , so many , so diverse Fathers , in so many Treatises , specially where they wrote de Oratione , of Prayer , must somewhere have mentioned them . Reply . Saint Ambrose saith , Ad Deum suffragatore non opus est ; now suffragari is to give ones voice . God indeed needs not any ( be they Elements , Stars , Angels , or Saints they meant ) to interpose betweene God and men , pour l' enformer , to informe him : but there needs some to interpose betweene God and men , pour les favoriser , to procure favour on our behalfe . Rejoynder . Although the word in Heathen Authours be used in that sense , yet in the Churches stile , Suffrages are taken for Prayers ; and in their Portuises language I find that Suffrages n are used for Ora pro nobis : now to the poynt . God , as hee needs not any Referendarie to give him intelligence , nor Counsailer to give him advice ; so neither needeth bee any Solliciter to incline him to heare the Prayers of a devour spirit , but the great Mediatour of all , which is Christ our Saviour , saith our learned Winchester . o Reply . Bellarmine replyeth , p that non opus est su●●ragatore , is not sayd on our part , but on Gods. R●joynder . It would bee asked of him , saith the same learned Bishop , q when it is sayd , Ad D●um suffragatore non est opus ; whether non est opus , sh●ll bee non est opus nobis , or non est opus Deo ; to say , non est opus Deo , were absurd ; so i● must bee non ●st opus nobis , and so the opus est must needs lye on our parts . Reply . Bellarmine saith , r that Ambrose speakes against the Heathen that worshipped the Starres : whereupon hee saith that they worshipped their fellow servants , that is , Creatures . Answer . How doth it appeare , that they were so rude , as to imagine that the Starres were Mediatours to God for them ? PRO. What doe you say to the testimonies of Athanasius , Ambrose , and Epiphanius , alleadged s against praying to Saints ? PA. Iesuit Fisher in his Rejoynder to Doctour Whites Reply , sayth , t The Fathers are thus to be understood , that Angels are not to be honoured as Gods , nor by Sacrifices in the heathenish manner . PRO. This answer is defective ; for the Fathers not onely when they answer Heathens , but when they instruct Christians , deliver the like speeches ; as appeareth by Chrysostome in the fifth Age. Besides , how doth it appeare that Christians were so rude in those Ages , as to imagine that Angels were Gods ? or that Sacrifices after the Pagan manner , were due to them ? Reply . B●llarmine saith farther , u that the Fathers alleadged doe speake against the errours of the Gentiles , who made wicked men departed , their Gods , and did offer Sacrifice unto them . Rejoynder . By this Reply of Bellarmines , the Reader ( saith the Right reverend & learned Lord Primate Doctor x Vsher ) may discerne the just hand of God , confounding the mans wits , that would thus abuse his learning to the upholding of Idolatry ; for had he beene his owne man , he could not possibly have failed so fowly , as to r●ckon the Angels and the Saints , and the very mother of God her selfe ( of whom these Fathers , specially Epiphanius , doe expressely speake ) in the number of those wicked persons , whom the Gentiles did take for their Gods. PA. Wee give Latrîa , or worship to God ; and Dulia , or service to the Saints . PRO. You give a higher worship to God , and a lesser to his Saints ; like that wanton Roman Dame , who thought to excuse her folly , by saying , y she companied with Metellus as with a Husband , and with Clodius as with a Brother , whereas all was due to her husband onely ; so doe these spirituall wantons part stakes in Gods worship , whereas all religious worship is due to God alone . Neither will this distinction salve the sore ; for the Scripture useth these terms without any such difference : z for the word Latria , which you appropriate to Gods service , is applied to men , as in this place : you shall doe no servile worke , the word used is Latria , [ L●vit . 23.7 . ] the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : so contrariwise , the word Dulia , is taken in Scripture for the proper service of God , as in this place , serving the Lord with all Humility , the word there used is Dulia ; so that this distinction is idle , since that Religious worship and service is all one . PA. We doe not invocate the Saints by Faith , as Authors of the benefits we crave . PRO. Your * practice sheweth the contrary , for you pray to the Virgin Mary in these termes : a Maria mater gratiae , Mater misericordiae ; Tu nos ab hoste protege , Et horâ mortis suscipe . Mary Mother of H●avens grace , Mother , where mercy hath chiefe place ; From cruel Foe , our soules defend , And them receive when life shall end . The Crosse is likewise devou●ly saluted in this manner : b O Crux ave spes unica , Hoc passionis tempore ; Auge pijs justitiam , Re●sque dona veniam . All haile O Crosse , our onely hope , In this time of the passion ; Increase thou justice to the godly , And give to sinners pardon . PA. You have alleadged divers Fathers against praying to Saints , give me now leave to produce such testimonies as Bellarmine brings in c , for invocation of Saints . PRO. The learned Bishop● on our side , Bishop d Andrewes and Bishop Montague e , have particularly examined the severall testimonies alleadged by Bellarmine , and found that hee hath utterly failed in his proofes . PA. Let us heare the Fathers themselves speake ; for their testimonies seeme to be cleere for us ; for instance sake . Nazianz●n rep●rts that Cyp●ian whiles hee was a Pagan , and a Conjurer , he fell in love with Iustina a Christian virgine at Antioch , whom , when as by wooing and ordinary meanes hee could not winne to his will , hee went about to intice and prevaile with by Magicall spells and conjurations ; which the Damosell perceiving , besought the Virgin Mary to succour her , being a distressed virgin . PRO. This goes under his name , but ( haply ) is none of his ; for it is not likely that Nazianzene ( one of so great learning , judgement , and memory ) could ( as Billius sp●akes g ) be so grossely mistaken , to ascribe that unto Saint Cyprian Bishop of Carthage in Africke , that ( if it were at all ) was done by one Cyprian the Deacon of Antioch in Asia . But yet say it were Nazianzen's owne report , it being but a private act , out of the devout affection in a Mayd , it cannot bee drawne to a rule of Faith ; neither is it proposed as an example to bee followed , but onely by way of bare narration what shee did : the relater passeth not his owne censure upon it ; yea , but hee taxeth it not ; though hee did not , yet others , and ( by name ) Epiphanius in the same age taxed such of that sexe , as offered Cakes , and the like presents , and oblations to the blessed Virgin. Lastly , the story saith , that despayring of all other remedies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , shee flyeth to God , and then assumeth for her Patron and Protectour Christ Iesus her Spouse ; and after this : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , shee besought the Virgin Mary to succour her , being a distressed virgin . First , she flyeth to God ; secondly , shee maketh Christ her Patron ; thirdly , she requesteth the Virgin Mary ( in zeale rather than upon knowledge . ) And although Nazianzen ( speaking onely by hearesay ) reporteth that shee supplicated ( not by any Collect , or set forme of devotion , but by a short ejaculation ) to the Virgin Mary ; yet this was done by her in the last place , and after shee had first sought to God and Christ : Whereas , in their Romish devotions , our Lady hath their orizons first addressed to her ; and our Lord hath them but as it were at second hand , the reve●sion of th●m . PA. Gregory Nyssen cals to Theodore the Martyr , saying , gather together the troopes of thy brother Martyrs , and thou with them joyntly , beseech God to stay the invasion of the Barbarous Gothes . PRO. Nyssen spake this in a Panegyricall oration , as an Oratour , not as a Divine , in a popular sermon of Commemoration , not in doctrinall determination . In like sort Bellarmine objects Nazianzen in his orations calling unto Cyprian , Basil , and Athanasius , with a tu autem è supernis nos respice , i doe thou favourably looke upon us from an high ; Whereas , this is no direct invocation , but rather a vote , wish and desire that Basil and Athanasius might doe so and so ; for it is not respice nos , but o si ; or Vtinam nos respicias , and so hee speakes of Basil , and now Basil is in the heavens offering as I thinke sacrifices for us , and praying for the people : hee comes with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as I take it , as I am perswaded ; it was but his opinion , and conjecture ; being indeed nothing but a Rhetoric●ll flourish . The like answer may serve to that of Hierome , who concluding his Funerall Oration upon Paula , desireth her in heaven , to assist him with her prayers ; k the ●peech h●e useth is no more but a Rhetoricall Apostrophe or conversion to her . Besides , it is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a wish ; and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a direct prayer unto her . In the like manner ●or proofe of prayer to Saints Bellarmine alleadgeth two Poets , Paulinus and Prudentius ; now wee answer him in his owne words , l who when Prudenti●s was alleadged against him in the point of Purgatory , hee puts it off , saying , Prudentius played the Poet , so say wee , that they spoke it in a poeticall vaine , as others in a straine of Rhetorike : Now in Poetrie , men take more libertie ; besides , their words serve them not at will , as they doe in prose : but they must often take such to make up their verse , as were otherwise inconvenient to bee used ; moreover , the heate of their invention carrieth them further oftentimes , then in a temperate speech , they would be carried . PA. Saint Ambrose exhorts widowes to pray to the Angels and Martyrs , m whom hee calleth beholders of our lives and actions . PRO. Saint Ambrose was chosen from a secular Iudge , to bee Bishop of Millaine , and was faine to bee christned before hee could bee consecrated . Now this booke de Viduis , of widowes was written about the beginning of his christianitie and divinitie both : n and therefore it is not strange , if in his beginning and novice ship hee said some things , for which hee afterward● corrected himselfe ; of this sort is that which he hath in the booke alleadged , which shewes hee was a novice in divinitie , when hee wrote that booke de Viduis , for there hee doubts , whether the Martyrs had any sinnes or n● ; and then saith , o That the sinnes they had , they did thems●lves wash away with their owne blood : Whereas the holy Scripture gives us no other L●ver for our sinnes than the blood of Iesus Christ , Who hath loved us , and washed us from our sinnes in his owne blood p . And againe , q The Saints have washed their robes in the blood of the Lambe . Now the blood of Martyrs is not the blood of Christ : and therefore that speech was neither so safely , nor properly set downe . Besides , the words rea●h not home , it is onely his opinion , that the Saints and Ang●ls are our Patrons , Videmur , r Wee seeme to have their pa●ronage , and yet it is but Patrocinium quoddam , a certaine kind of gardian ship . But what Saint Ambrose's opinion was touching this point , no man can better tell than himselfe , who elsewhere saith s That to procure Gods favour , wee need no spokesman but a devout mind : and againe , t Thou onely O Lord oughtest to bee invocated and prayed unto . Objection . Saint Cyril of Hierusalem saith , u That wee make mention of those that sleepe in the Lord before us , that by their Intercession God would receive our prayers . Thus he in his mystagogicall Catechismes . Answer . The learned x doe thinke that Cyril of Hierusalem was not Author thereof , but one Iohn Bishop of Hierusalem , who lived about the yeare 767 , a great advocate of Images ; and indeed it may seeme so by some idle stuffe we find in them , as namely , where it is said , * That the wood of the Crosse did increase and multiply in such sort , that the earth was full thereof . But , be it Cyrils of Hierusalem , it makes not for the Romists . All he saith is this in effect ; he supposeth that those holy ones with God , doe continually pray unto God , which prayers he desires God would mercifully heare , and grant unto them , for the good of his servants here on earth . Lastly , he sayth mentionem facimus ; and so did the ancients in their Commemorations , mention the Godly Saints deceased , and yet without any direct invoking of them . And so Saint Austin saith : y That the Martyrs were named at the Communion Table , but yet not invocated by the Priest. Saint Austin flatly opposeth invocantur , to nominantur ; nominantur , sed non invocantur , so that they might be nominated , and mentioned , ( as Cyril speakes ) and yet not at all invocated . Objection . Saint Hilary saith , z that by reason of our infirmitie , we stand in need of the intercession of Angels , and the like he hath upon the 124 Psalme . a Answer . Hilary speakes onely of Angelicall intercession : not a word touching invocation or intercession of Saints . And if any intercession be intended , it is that in generall for the whole Church . In the other place upon the 124 Psalme , Hilary speaks neither of Saints praying for us , nor of praying to them , but sayth : That the Church hath no small ayde in the Apostles , Prophets , and Patriarkes , or rather in the Angels which hedge and compasse the Church round about with a certaine guard , the ayde therefore he meaneth , is the example and doctrine of b the Saints departed , and the ministerie of the Angels . Objection . The Emperour Theodosius went in Procession with his Clergy and Laity , b to the Oratories and Chappels , and lying prostrate before the Shrines and Monuments of the Apostles and Martyrs , he required ayde to himselfe by the faithfull intercession of the Saints . Answer . The Emperour did not invocate any Saint , or Saints at all ; onely upon that exigent of the rebellion of Eugenius and his complices , he repayres to the Shrines and Chappels of the Apostles , Martyrs , and other holy Saints ; there he made his prayers unto God in Christ , not unto them , desiring God to ayde him against his enemies , and the rather upon the prayers and intercession of the Saints on his behalfe ; now invocation followes not presently upon intercession . c Reply . Sozomen telleth us that the Emperour before he joyned battaile , he earnestly intreated to be assisted by Saint Iohn Baptist. Rejoynder . The learned Bishop , Bishop Mountague answereth , d that the credit of this story may ●e questioned ; for Socrates and Th●odoret elder than Sozomen , have it not ; and Sozomen himselfe hath no greater warrant for i● then hea●e say ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the report is ; but who the Author was , wha● credit it was of , is not related . But supposing the truth of the story , Ruffinus hath the very forme of the Prayer which the Emperour made , e and there is no mention therein of invocating either Saint or Ang●l . Socrates saith , f that the Emperor implored Gods assistance , and had his desire ; Theodoret saith , g that the E●perour prayed to God ; so that the Emperour had repayre unto God alone , without any mediation at all . h I have consulted with the Originall , and there indeed I find that the Emperour being in Saint Iohn Baptist's Church which Theodosius hims●lfe had built , i He called to have Saint Iohn Baptist's assistance in the battaile ; he did not directly call upon S. Iohn Baptist , but he called upon God , that he would appoint the Baptist for to a●d him . But be it that he called upon the Baptist indeed ; yet this was done in the second place , after he had first immediatly called upon God hims●lfe . Objection . Athanasius in his Sermon upon the Annunciation of bless●d Virgin , sayth to the Virgin Mary , k Incline thine cares to our prayers , and forget not thy people . Answer . Indeed this speakes home , but it is not the true Athan●sius , but some counterfeits bearing his name ; and this is confessed by the two Arch pillars of Poperie , Bellarmine and Baronius ; for howsoever Bellarmine , to make up his number , produce l Athan●sius for proofe of Saintly invocation ; yet the same B●llarmine when he is out of the heat of his controversies , and is not tied to maintaine ●he invocation of Saints , but treateth of other matters ; then , in his Catalogue of Ecclesiasticall wri●ers , he is of another judgement ; and saith m that this Sermon of Athanasius of the Annunciation of the blessed Virgin , seemeth not to be Athanasiusses , but some later write●s , who lived af●er the six●h generall Councel . Baronius also is of the same judgement : n and indeed he that shall consider and w●i●h what the true Athanasius writes , to wit , o That God onely is to be worshipped : that the creature is not to fall downe and worship or supplicate the creature : nor p to make the Saints ( being but creatures , & no creators ) speciall helpers and opitulators : he ( I say ) that shall duely weigh these things , will easily conceive when he reads this Sermon of the Annunciation , that either Athanasius was not constant to his own doctrine ( which is not to bee imagined , or that this Homily alleadged is none of the true Athanasiusses , it is so farre different from his other doctrine . Objection . Bellarmine , for proofe of Saintly invocation , q alleadgeth a place out of Eusebius ; the testimonie speaketh thus , as there it standeth reported out of the thirteenth Booke , and seaventh Chapter of his Evangelicall Preparation : r This we daily doe : we honour those heavenly Souldiers , as Gods friends , we approach unto their Monuments , and pray unto them , as unto Holy men , by whose intercession we professe our selves to be much holp●n . Answer . Eusebius speakes not of particular invocation for particular intercession : but of generall mediation of the Saints in heavē , who pray for Saints on earth in general , according to the nature of Communion of Saints , without any intercession used to thē , or invocation of them , by that other moity of the Church Militant o● earth . Secondly , Eusebiu● doth not enlarge his speech to all the Saints departed , but unto Martyrs onely , whom he calle●h Heavenly Souldiers . Now the case of Martyrs and other Saints is not equall : for in the opinion of the Ancients , that of Martyrs was fa●re above all other depa●ted with God ; as enjoying mo●e priviledge from God , with Christ in glory , by some specially enlarged dispensation , than they the other holy Saints did , as Saint Augustine s teacheth . 3. Thirdly , the place alleadged is taken out of a corrupt translation made by Trapezuntius , and afterwards followed by t Dadroeus a Doctour of Paris , who set forth Eusebius . Now Eusebius hath no such thing as is pretended ; his words in his owne language are these : u It is our custome , to come to the Tombes and Monuments [ of the Martyrs ] and to make our prayers at , or bef●re those Shrines , or Tombes , and to honour those blessed soules . Pl●●saith they used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to present themse●ves at the Martyrs Tombes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and to make their prayers , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those To●bes and Monuments ; he saith not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to these Martyrs , as Bellarmine would have it . It is onething to pray ad memorias Martyrum , before or neere the Sepulchers of ●he Martyrs , as anciētly they were wont to doe : & another thing to say ( as our adversari●s doe ) that these Praye●s were made unto the Martyrs themselves : the truth is , they were made unto God to p●aise him for the assista●ce given unto the Martyrs , and to crave of God the like G●ace . 4. F●urthly , and lastly , Eusebius in the same treatise doth fully expre●se himselfe touching this matter , saying , We are taught to worship God onely , and to honour those blessed Powers that are about him , with such honour as is fit and agreeable to their ●state and condition : and againe , x To God onely will we give the worship due un●o his name , and him onely doe we religiouslie worship and adore . Object . Saint Ephraim the Syrian y saith , Wee pray you O ye● bl●ssed Spirits , vouchsafe to make intercession to God for us miserable sinners . Answer . The z learned take exceptions at this Ephraim , as being a counterfeit , lately brought to light , and not set forth in his native language , but taught to speake in the Roman tongue : ●ut bee it that it is the true Saint Ephraem , yet hee saith nothing directly for praying to Saints : for it is but an Apostrophe in generall , which infe●reth no co●●lusion a● all , no● is it directed to any one peculiar Saint , b●t ●o the Saints i● gene●all . Now it is con●essed that they pray to God Pro nobis miseris peccatoribus ; and this their b●other-like aff●ction , and Saint-like performance , is an ●speciall pa●t of the Communion of Saints . Besides , Ephraem ( take him as hee comm●th to our hands ) delivereth that which overthrowe●h Saintly Invocatio● ; for hee prayeth to God onely , without mentio●ing any Saint at all ; a yea hee saith expresly , That hee knoweth no other save God , to whom hee should present his prayers ; and yet more fully b saying ; Tibi soli redemptori supplico , To thee only my Saviour and Redeemer I make my prayer and supplication . And thus speakes Ephraem when once he is out of his p●osopopeiaes , and Rhetoricall compellations , his pa●egy●icks , and commendatorie orations of the Saints . Of Iustification by Faith onely . Concerning Iustification by Faith onely , Saint Ambrose ( or some of the same standing with Ambrose ) c is cleare and plentifull throughout his Commentaries on Saint Pauls Epistles . They are justified by faith alone , by the gift of God ; yea , hee farther saith , g No worke of the Law , but onely faith is to bee given in Christ's cause . Saint Hilarie saith , h That which the Law could not unloose , is remitted by Christ , for faith alone justifieth . Saint Basil saith , i That it is true and perfect rejoycing in the Lord , when a man is not puffed up with his owne righteousnesse , but acknowledgeth his want thereof , yet r●joyceth that hee is justified by faith alone in Christ. By this that hath beene said , it appeareth , that when wee say , Faith onely justifieth , wee have not departed from the doctrine of the ancient Fathers in this point of Iustification . Of Merit . Concerning Merit , Saint Ambrose saith , k Whence should I have so great merit , seeing mercy is my crowne ? and againe , l What can wee doe worthy of the heavenly rewards ? the s●ff●ring● of this time are u●worthy for the glory t●●t is to come : therefore the forme of heav●nly Decrees doth proceed with men , not according to our me●its , but according to Gods mercy . Basil saith , m Everlasting rest is layd up for them that strive lawfully in this life ; not to bee rendred according to the d●bt of workes , but exhibited by the grace of the bountifull God to them that trust in him . Macarius the Aegyptian Hermite , touching the gift which Christians shall inherit , averreth ; n That this a man may rightly say , that if any one from the time wherein Adam was created unto the very end of the world did fight against Satan , and undergoe afflictions ; hee should doe no great matter in respect of the glory that hee shall inherit ; for he● shall reigne together with Christ world without end . PA. You produced Saint Cyril of Hierusalem , as if he should witnesse for you , whereas hee is ours ; and your Mr. Cooke tell●th us o that Bellarmine often alleadgeth him on our behalfe . PRO. The learned make question whether Cyril , or Iohn B. of Hierusalem were the Author of those Catechismes ; and surely in some part thereof there bee divers things unworthy of that ancient and learned Cyril , who is the more to be beloved of the Orthodoxe , as he was greatly hated of the A●rians ; yet even in these Catechismes ( take them as they come to our hands ) Master Rivet , a learned , and judicious Divine , finds many testimonies p that make for us , and against the Papists : For instance sake , Cyril in his Catechisme , having numbred all the bookes of the old Testament omitteth all those that are controverted ; and saith , q Peruse the two and twenty bookes , but meddle not with the Apocrypha ; meditate diligently upon those Scriptures , which the Church doth confidently read , and use no other : Hee saith , r That the safetie and preservation of faith consists not in the eloquence of words , but in the proofe of divine Scripture . The same Cyril saith , s Receive the body of Christ with a hallow hand , saying Amen , and after the partaking of the body of Christ , come also to the cup of the Lord. The same Cyril saith , t that the words [ my Body ] were Spoken of the bread . Christ thus avoucheth and saith of the Bread , this is my Body . He resembleth the consecrated oyle wherewith their foreheads were annoynted , to the consecrated bread in the Eucharist . Looke ( saith he , u Thou doe not thinke it to be onely bare and simple oyle , for even as the consecrated bread after prayer and invocation is no more common bread , but Christs body ; so the holy oyle is no more bare and simple oyle , or common , but Charisma the gift of Grace : whence ( as Master Rivet saith ) x wee may thus argue as is the change in the oyle , such there is in the Eucharist ; but in the oyle there is no change in substance , but use , and sanctification by grace ; and therefore there is no substantiall change or conversion in the Elements of bread and wine when they become the body and blood of Christ. Objection . Saint Cyril saith , y Know you for a surety , that the bread which is seene of us is not bread , though the taste find it to bee bread , but the body of Christ : insomuch as Bellarmine upon this testimonie saith , z Quid clariùs dici potest ? What can be said more plainely ? Answer . Cyril saith ; The bread which is seene of us is not bread , and the same Cyril saith a of the Water in Baptisme , it is not simple water , let the one satisfie the other . Cyril saith of the bread , as hee doth of the oyle ; that it is no bare , simple , or common oyle ; but Charisma , the type , and symboll of a spirituall gift ; and so hee meant of the bread , the Consecrated bread ; that it is no ordinary or common bread , but of different use and serv●ce , and yet the●ein not any change of substance at all . Neither doth Cyril say as Bellarmine corrup●ly tra●slateth it , or at le●st m●kes use of a corrupt tr●nslation , b That the body of C●rist is given Sub sp●cie pan●s , Vnder the forme of bread ; but ( as it ●s in the Greeke ) c Vnder the type of bread ; even as hee saith afterwards , d Thinke not t●at you taste bread , but t●e Antitype of Christs body ; so that hee calleth the cons●crated bread and wine , ●ypes , and Antitypes , that is signes of the body and bloo● of Christ. Now where●s Cyril would not have us judge of th●s Sacrament by our taste or sense ; it i● true ; that as the Bread and Wine are ●ound and whi●e , a●d sweet in taste , our bodily senses m●y indeed perceive th●m ; but as they are types , and A●titypes , that is , sign●s Of the body and blood ●f Christ , so ●hey a●e spi●itually to bee discern●d , with our understanding onely ; as the Reverend and learned D●ctor Morton , Lo. Bishop of Coventry and Lichfi●ld , and now Lord Bishop of Dur●sme , hath observed . Lastly the same Cyril saith , f That wee have r●pentance , and remission of sinnes , confined onely to the terme of th●s pr●s●nt life : More might be alleadged out of the same ●y●il , but these may su●fice to shew what hee in his Ca●echismes taught his schollers , touching the Scriptur●s s●ffic●encie , a●d Ca●on , Communion in both kinds , the Eucha●ist and Purgatory . Before I clo●e up this Centurie , I must needs speake of Constantin● the Great , and the two generall Councel● held in this Age. In ●his age flourished the honour of our nation , that Christian P●ince Constantine the Great , borne of our co●n●rey woman H●l●na ; both of them Britaines by bi●th● Roy●ll by descent , Saints by esti●ation , and true Catholikes by profession . PA. Do●tor 〈◊〉 and Master Brerely show them to have b●●n● o● g 〈…〉 . PRO. Our reverend and learned Doctor , Doctor Abbot , late Bish●p of Salisbury , hath sufficiently confuted your Bishop , and acquitted them from being Papists ; since they held not the grounds of Popery , as at this day , they are maintayned . PA. If constantine were no Papist , of what faith t●en was hee ? PRO. Hee was of the true , ancient , Christian Faith , as may appeare by these instances following . Hee held the Scriptures sufficient for deciding matte●s of Faith , and accordingly prescribed this rule to the Nicene Councell , saying , h Because the Apostles Bookes doe plainely instruct us in divine matters ; therefore we ought to make our Determinations upon Questions , from words which are so divinely inspired : he saith not that the Scriptures plainely teach us what to thinke of the nature and substance of God ( as Bellarmine would i wrest it ) but also of the holy Law , and things concerning Religion ; for so doe the words sound in the originall k ; and herein ( saith Theodoret ) l the greater part of the Councell obeyed the voyce of Constantine . Constantine held it not the Pop●s peculiar to summon generall Coun●●lls ; for hee called the Councell of Nice himselfe m , and therein sate as President and m●deratour , receiving every mans opinion , helping sometimes one part , sometimes another , n reconciling them when they were at ods , untill hee brought them to an agreement in the Faith. The same E●perour by his roy●ll Letters o Prescribed to the Bishops such things as belonged to th● good of Gods Church ; yea hee held himselfe to bee a Iu●ge and supreme Governour in Causes Ecclesiasticall : for hee professeth ( speaking generally of all so●t● of men ) if any shall rashly or undadvisedly maintaine these pestilent assertions ( meaning the Arrians ) p His saucinesse shall be● instantly curbed by the Emperours ex●cution , who is Gods Ministers . Moreover Constantine never sought to the Pope for pardon , hee never worshipped an Image , never served Saint nor Shrine , never knew the Masse , Transubstantiation , nor the halfe Communion : hee prayed not for his Fathers soule at the performance of his Funeralls , q used no Requiems nor Diriges at his Exequies ; he wished not any prayers to bee made after his death for his owne soule ; but having received Baptisme newly before his death , professed a stedfast hope that needed no such after-prayers , saying ; r Now I know indeed that I am a blessed man , that God hath accounted mee worthy of immortall life , and that I am now made partaker of the light of God. And when they that stood about him wished him longer life , hee answe●ed , s That hee had now attayned the true life , and that none but himselfe did understand of what happinesse he was made partaker , and that he therfore hastned his going to his God. Thus Constantine dyed outright a Protestan● , hee craved no after-prayers for his soule , hee dreaded no Purgatory , but dyed in full assurance of going immediately to his God. Was this Prince now a Trent papist ? Now to proceed ; the fi●st Generall Councell in Christianitie , after the Synod of the Apostles , was that famous fi●st Councell of Nice , consisti●g of 318. Bishops , the greatest lights that the Christian world then had ; it was called about 325 yeares after Christ , against Arrius , that denyed Christ to bee ve●y God ; from this Councell wee had o●r Nicen Creed , it was summoned not by the th●n Bishop of Rome , but by the Emperour Constantine , Gathering th●m together out of divers Cities and Provinces , as thems●lves have l●f●●ccorded t : Wee produce the sixth Canon of this Councell , against the Popes monarchicall Iurisdiction ; the ●enour thereof is this : u Let ancient customes hold , that the Bishops of Alexandria should have the government over Aegypt , Lybia , and Pentapolis , because also the Bishop of Rome hath the same custome ; as also let Antioch and other Provinces hold their ancient priviledges : Now these words of the Canon thus limiting and distinguishing the severall Provinces , and grounding on the custome of the Bishop of Rome , that as hee had preheminence of all the Bishops about him , so Alexandria and Antioch should have alL about them , as likewise every Metropolitane within his owne Province : these words ( I say ) doe cleerely sh●w , that before the Nicene Councell , the Pope neither had preheminence of all through the world ( as now hee claymeth to bee an universall Bishop ) nor ought to have greater preheminence ( by their judgement ) than he had before time , this being the effect of the Canon , to wit , That the Bishop of Alexandria shall have authority over his Diocesses , as the Bishop of Rome over his . PA. Bellarmine saith , x the meaning of the Canon is , that the Bishop of Alexandria should have the Provinces there mentioned , because the Bishop of Rome was accustomed to permit it so to bee . PRO. The words of the Canon are , Because the Church of Rome hath the like custome , here is not one word of permission . They bee indeed ( as learned Bishop Morton saith y ) words of comparison ; that the Bishop of Alexandria should injoy his priviledges accordingly as the Bishop of Rome held ancien●ly his : as if one should say , I will give this man a crowne , b●cause also I gave a crown to his fellow . Besides , Cardinal Cusanus understandeth the Canon as we doe , in this sort ; z As the Bishop of Rome had power and authority over all his Bishops , so the Bishop of Alexandria , according to custome , should have thorowout Lybia , and the rest . Here by the way , the reader may observe , that though the Pope should have a large circuit for his Diocesse , yet was n●t this Iurisdiction given him , by the Law of Go● , but by the custome of men . Let old cust●mes b● k●pt s●ith the Councel : he●e was no ordinance of Christ , acknowledged , no Text of Scripture alleadged for it , as now a day●s ; Tu es Petrus , and pasce oves , and tibi da●o claves ; Thou art Peter , f●ed my sheepe , and unto thee will I give the Keyes of the Church . The P●p● held it not then , as it is now pre●ended , a Divino● by divine ordinance , but onely by use and custome which may be altered , and was upon occasion ; for when Constantinople became the Imperiall City , then was the Bishop thereof equalled with Rome as appearet● by the Chalcedon Councel . About the yeare 381 the second Generall Councel , was held at Constantinople , against Macedomus , who denyed the Divinity of the Holy Ghost ; ●t consisted of an hundred and fifty Bishops ; it was called not by the Pope , but by the Emperour Theodosius the elder . b This Councel confirmed the foresaid sixt Canon of the Nicen , which bounded the Bishop of Rome ( as well as other Bishops ) within the precincts of his owne Province . The third Canon of this Councel of Constantinople speakes in this tenour : That the Bishop of Constantines City , that is , Constantinople hath P●erogatives of honour next after the Bishop of Rome , because it is new Rome . THE FIFTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 400. to 500. PAPIST . WHat say you of this fifth Age ? PROTESTANT . We are yet within the compasse of the first 500 yeeres next after Christ , and so neerer to the time and truth of the Prim●tive Chu●ch : now for this present Age , it may for choice of Learned men , be compared to the Golden Age , for now flourished the Golden mouthed Chrysostome , * the Well languaged Hierome and Saint Austin the very Mall and Hammer of Heretikes . Chrisostome was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the most copious writer of any of the Greeke Fathers now extant ; he was an eloquent Preacher , full of Rhetoricall figures , and amplifications ; so that his veine and gift lay rather in the Ethique and Moral part of divinity , a working upon the affections , than in the doctrinal and exegetical part , for information of judgement . By his liberty of speech in Pulpit , he drew the hatred of th● great ones of the 〈◊〉 , and of the Emperour hims●lfe , but above all , of the Empresse Eudoxia , upon his head : so that she , and Theophilus , Patria●ke of Alexandria procu●ed his deposition and banishment , with commandment to ●●●●ney his weak● body with excessive Travels from place to place , untill he concluded his life , b about the yeare foure hundred and eleven . c Hierome was borne in Dalmatia , and instructed at Rome . He travailed abroad into France , and other places , of pu●pose to increase his knowledge , at Rome hee acquainted himselfe with Honourable women , such as Marcella , Sophronia , Principia , Paula , and Eustochium , to whom he expounded places of holy Scripture , for hee was admitted Presbiter ; he served Damasus Bishop of Rome in sorting his Papers ; his gifts were envied at Rome , therefore he l●ft Rome , and tooke his voyage towards Palestina : by the way he acquainted himselfe with Epiphanius , Nazianzen , and Didymus Doctor in the Schoole of Alexandria , and sundry other men of note and marke . In the end he came to Iudea , and made choice of Bethlem the place of the Lords Nativity to bee the place of his death . At Bethlem , Paula a noblewoman ( who accompanied Hierome , and his brother Paulinianus from Rome ) upon her owne charges builded foure Monasteries , whereof her selfe guided one , and Hi●rome another . Hierome was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 well skilled in the tongues ; but he wa● a man of a Chollericke and sterne disposition , more inclinable to a solitary and Monkish li●e , then to f●llowship and societie : neither Heliodorus in the wildernes , nor Ruffinus out of the wildernes , could keep inviolable friendship with him , hee flourished about the yeare 390. but he lived unto the yeare 422 , d & therfore we place him in this fifth Age , and so doth Bellarmine . Augustine in his younger yeares was infected with the errour of the Manichees ; his mother Monica prayed to God for his conv●rsion , and God heard her pra●ers ; fo● by the p●eac●ing of Ambrose , bish●p of Millaine , an● by reading the life of Antonius the Heremite , hee was wonderf●lly moved , and beganne to disl●ke his former conversation . He went into a quiet Garden acco●panied with Alipius , and there as he was with teares bewayling his former course , and desi●ing Gods grace for working his c●nversion , hee heard a voice sa●i●g unto him , f Tolle & lege , and againe , Tolle & lege , that is to say , Take up and reade , Take up and reade : at the first hearing , hee thought it to bee the voyce of boyes or maydes speaking in their play such words one to another : but when hee looked about , and could see nobody , he knew it to bee some heavenly admonition , warning him to take up the booke of holy Scripture ( which he had in the Garden with him ) and read . Now the first place that fell in his hands , after the opening of the booke , was this : g Not in gluttony and drunkennesse , neither in chambering and wantonnesse , nor in strife and envying● but put yee on t●e Lord Iesus Christ , and take no thought for the flesh to fulfill the lusts of it . At the reading whereof , hee was so fully resolved to forsake the vanities of the world , and to become a Christian , that immediately thereafter hee was babtized by Saint Ambrose , with his companion Alipius , and his sonne Adeodatus . Hee was afterwards made bishop of Hippo in Africa . Hee defended the truth against the Manichees , Pelagians , Donatists , and whatsoever errour else prevail●d in this age . Hee is to bee commended , in that hee revised his owne Writings , and wrote his retractations , or r●cognitions . When he had lived 76 yeares , hee re●●ed from his labours , before the Vandales had taken the towne of Hippo which in the time of Augustines sickenesse they had besieged : and thus was hee translated , and taken away , before hee saw the evill that came upon the place . h Besides these learned Trium virs , there lived in this age Theodoret bishop of Cyrus a towne in Syria , Cyrill bishop of Alexandria , Leo the great and Gelasius bishops of Rome , Vincentius Lirinensis a great impugner of Heresies , as also Sedulius of Scotland i , whose Collections are extant upon Saint Pauls Epistl●s , k and his testimonies frequently cited by the learned L. Primate Doctour Vsher in his Tr●atise of the ancient Irish Religion . O● the Sc●iptures sufficiencie . Saint Augustine saith , l In those things which are layd downe plainely in the Scriptures , all those things are found , which appertaine to faith and direction of life . Bellarmine would shift off this place by saying , m That Austine meant , that in Scripture are contayned all such points as are simply necessary for all , to wit , the Creed , and the Commandements ; but beside these , other things necessary for Bishops and Pastors n were delivered by tradition : but this stands not with Austines drift , for in the Treatise alleadged de Doctrin● Christianâ , hee purposely instructeth not the people , but Christian Doctors and Teachers ; so that where he saith , In the Scriptures are plainely set downe all things which containe Faith , Hope , and Charity , he meaneth ( as elsewhere o hee expresseth himselfe ) all things which are necessarily to bee believed , or done , not onely of the Lay people , but even of Ecclesiastickes . In like sort the same father saith ; p Those things which seemed sufficient to the salvation of believers , were chosen to bee written . Vincentius Lirinensis saith , that the Canon or Rule of Scripture is perfect , abundantly sufficent in it selfe for all things , yea more than sufficient ; neither is this a false supposall , as a Iesuit pretends it to be , r but a grounded truth , and the Authors doctrine : Li●inensis indeed maketh first one generall sufficient Rule for all things , the sacred Scriptures ; Secondly another , usefull in some cases onely , yet never to be used in those cases without Scriptures , which is , the Tradition of the Vniversall Church , and generall consent of Fathers . The first was used by the ancient Church from the worth that is in it selfe ; the other is used to avoyd the jarring interpretations of perv●rse Heretike● that many times abuse the sacred Rule & Standard of the Scripture . Now we admit the Churches Interpretation , as ministeriall to holy Scripture , so it be conformable thereunto . And wee say with the learned Rejoynder to the Iesuit Malounes Reply : s Bring us now one Scripture expounded ( according to Lirinensis his Rule t ) by the Vniversall consent of the Primitive Church , to prove Prayer to Saints , Image worship in your sense , and we will receive it . Saint Cyril saith , u that All things which Christ did are not written , but so much as holy writers judged sufficient both for good manners and Godly faith . And in another place he saith , x The holy Scripture is sufficient to make them which are brought u● in it wise , and most approved , and furnished with most sufficient understanding . Saint Hierome reasoneth Negatively from the Scriptures , saying : y As we deny not those things that are written , so we refuse those things that are not written ; That God was borne of a Virgin we believe , because we reade it ; That Mary did marry after shee was delivered we beleeve not , because we reade it not . Saint Chrysostome saith , z that All those things that are in holy writ are right and cleere : that , Whatsoever is necessarie , is manifest therein ; yea , he calleth the a Scripture , The most exact Balance , Square , and Rule of Divine veritie . This was the Fathers Rule of Faith of old , and the same a perfect one ; but the Papists now adayes make it but a part of a Rule , b halfe a Rule ; and piece it with Tradition . Of the Scripture Canon . Saint Hierome , who was well skilled in the tongues , travailed much , and saw the choycest Monuments of Antiquitie , as also the best Libraries that the Easterne Parts could afford , and was therefore likely to meete with the best Canon , nameth all the Bookes which we admit , and afterwards addeth : c Whatsoever is besides these , is to be put amongst the Apocrypha ; and that therfore the Booke of Wisedome , of Iesus the Sonne of Syrach , of Iudith , Tobias , and Pastor , are not in the Canon . The same Hierome having mentioned the Booke of Wisedome , and Ecclesiasticus , and delivered his opinion , that it is untruly called the Wisedome of Salomon , and attributed to him , then addeth : d That as the Church readeth Iudith , Tobias , and the Maccabees , but receiveth them not ●or Canonicall Scriptures ; so these two Bookes , ( ●amely ) the Wisedome of Sal●mon , and Iesus the Sonne of Syrach , doth the Church reade for the edification of the p●ople , not to confirme the authority of any doctrine in the Church . Objection . The Carthaginian Councel received those Books which you account Apocryphall . Answer . They received them in Canonem Morum , not in Canonem Fidei . It is true ind●ed that Saint Austine , and the African Bishops of his time , and some other in that Age , finding these Bookes which Hierome and others rej●ct as Apocryphall , to be joyned with the other , and together read with them in the Church , seeme to account them to be Canonicall ; but they received them onely into the Ecclesiasticke Canon f serving for Example of life , and instruction of manners : and not into any part of the Rule of Faith , or Divine Canon , as Saint Austine speaking of the Bookes of the Maccabees distinguisheth , saying : g This reckoning is not found in the Canonicall Scriptures , but in other Bookes , as in the Maccabees ; plainely distinguishing betweene the Canonicall Scriptures , and the Bookes of the Maccabees : Wherein , ( saith he h ) There may be something found worthy to be joyned with the number of those miracles ; yet hereof will we have no care , for that we intend the miracles , Divini Canonis , which are received in the Divine Canon . Of the booke of Iudith he tels us , i The Iewes never received it into the Canon of Scriptures ; and withall there he professeth , That the Canon of the ●ewes was most Authenticall . Touching the bookes of Wisedome , and Ecclesiasticus , he tels us , k that , They were called Salomons , onely for some lik●n●sse of Stile , but the Learned doubt whether they b●e his . Lastly , the Councel of Carthage , whereat Saint Austine was present , Prescribing that no bookes should be read in the Church as Canonicall , but such as indeed are Canonicall , leaveth out the booke of Maccabees , as it appeareth by the Greeke Edition , l though they have shuffled them into the Latine ; m which argueth suspicion of a forged Canon . Now to this ancient evidence of Hierome , and Austine , the Papists make but a poore Reply . Canus saith , n that Hierome is no rule of Faith ; and that the matter was not then sufficiently sifièd : Bellarmine saith , o I admit that Hierome was of that opinion , because as yet a Generall Councel had decreed nothing touching those bookes ; and Saint Austin might likewise doubt thereof ; so that by Bellarmines confession , Hierome , and Austine , in this point are ours . Of Communion under both kinds . Saint Chrysostome sai●h , p that whereas Vnder the Law , there was a difference betweene Priests and Laicks in communicating of victim●s ; In the n●w it is otherwise ; for one body and one Cup is ministred to all . Hierom saith q that the Pastors administred the Eucharist , and distributed the bloud of our Lord to his people ; the same Hierome report●th how Exuperius Bishop of Tholouse in France was wont to carry the Cōmunion to perso●s absent . There was no man ( saith he ) r richer than Exuperius , who carried the Lords body in a Wicker basket , and his bloud in a Glasse . It is true indeed that the Bishop sold the Church●Plate for the reliefe of the poore ; s so that he was driven to use Osier baskets , and Glasse-cups ; but withall the story saith , he carried the consecrated bread and wine severally and apart , and not by way of Concomitancie . Besides that , the wine might be carried abroad in a viall , to sicke persons , without any such danger of spilling , as the Iesuit dreames on . Saint Austine saith , u All that would have life are exh●●ted to drinke of the bloud ; and , that The whole Church having received the Cup , answereth , Amen . Pope L●o r●proveth such as in his time refused the Cup , which is a token that the Cup was then in use among the Laietie , his words are these : x Whereas some to hide their infidelitie come sometimes to Catholike Churches , and are present at the celebration of sacred mysteries , they so temper the matter that with unworthy mouthes they receive the Lords body , but decline to drinke the bloud of our Redemption . I would ●herefore have your holinesse take notice , that by these signes they may be discovered , and their Sacrilegious dissembling may be found out and descried , that being thus discovered they may by Priestly authoritie he cast out of the societie of the Saints . In like sort Gelasius enjoyned Communion in both kinds . We have found ( saith he ) y That certai●e having received a po●tion of the sacred body onely , abstaine from the Cup of the most holy bl●ud ; which men because they are said to be intangled with I know not what superstition , either let them receive the whole Sacrament , or else let them be wholly ●xcluded from receiving ; because there can be no dividing of one and the same mysterie without grievous Sacriledge . Reply . Gelasius ( hap'ly ) speaketh of some * Priests who consecrated the elements , but themselves received not in both kinds . Answer . The words hee useth are Recipiant , and Arceantur , which doe evidently prove , that he speakes of the people , who doe not themselves receive the Sacrament , but from the Ministers hand ; as also the word Arceantur , that is , Let them not be received , though they offer themselves . Besides , the ancient histories speake not of any Priest that ever made scruple of drinking of the Chalice which himselfe had consecrated . Reply . The Manichees had an opinion , z that Wine was not created by God , but by some evill spirit , and that Christ did not shed his bloud on the Crosse , and hereupon they abstained from the Chalice : therefore the Church in detestation of this errour , for a time commanded Communion under both kinds ; a upon this occasion Gelasius made the Decree recorded by Gratian. R●joynder . This was not done upon occasion of the Manichee's errour ; for before ever they appeared in any number , Communion in both kinds was practised , as appeareth by the Apostles , Ignatius , Iustin Martyr , Irenaeus , Tertullian , and Saint Cyprian . Now Cyprian the youngest of these flourished about the yeere two hundred and fiftie b , and the Manichees rose not till about the yeere two hundred seventy three . c Againe , although Leo speake of the Manichee's , yet Iesuit Vasques sayth , d that He commanded not the use of the Cup because of them , but required that those which feigned themselves Catholikes , and came to the holy Communion , receiving the bread , and taking the Cup into their hands , pretending that they dranke the wine , and yet did not , should carefully be observed . Now among a multitude of Communicants some few might hold the Cup to their mouth , and make shew of drinking , and yet receive no wine . The Cup then was not for a time only allowed to the Laicks by Leo and Gelasius , thereby to discover who were Manichees ; but in these Popes dayes the Cup was usually and ordinarily given to the Laicks , and upon the refusing of the Cup ( then in use among the Catholikes ) the Manichees were discovered ; otherwis● how could the Pope have reproved their practice ? How could the Manichees have be●ne espyed and k●owne , if they and the Catholikes had received in one kind both alike ? For this is the token that Leo would have them knowne by , for that Th●y refuse to drinke the bloud of our Redemption ; by which words it is cleere , that the Cup was off●red orderly unto them , as unto others , but th●y refused it . Now touching the place of G●lasius , the same Vasqu●z sayth , e that Whereas some of his part apply the same to the Manichees , Canon● for therein he teacheth That the mysterie of the Eucharist is of that natu●e in regard of it selfe , that without gri●vous sacriledge it cannot bee d●vided and severed the one part from the other , to wit , because of the institution and signification . Admit then , that the Manichees occasioned this Decree ; yet this Decree is backed with a generall ●eason which forbids all to communicate in one kind onely , under the perill of Sacriledge : so that the Popes Canon reacheth not onely to the Manichee , but to all such as halve the Communion , be they Manichees , o● Papists , or whatsoever they be . Of the number of Sacraments . Saint Austine f with others , tell us , That the Sacraments of the n●w Law flowed out of Christ's side : now none issued thence , but the Sacrament of water , which is Baptisme , and the Sacrament of bloud in the Supper . The same Austine sayth , g Our Lord and his Apostles have d●liv●red unto us a few Sacraments in stead of many , and the same in doing most easie , in signification most excellent , in obs●rvation most rev●rend , as is the Sacrament of Baptisme , and the celebration of the body and bloud of our Lord. And the same Father speaking of the same Sacraments ( whi●h he calleth , for h number the fewest , for observation , easiest , for signification excellentest ) withall indeed addeth a si quid aliud , if any such other Sacrament bee to bee found in Scripture , but himselfe could not find any other ; for he concludeth them within the number of two , saying , i These be the two Sacraments of the Church . Of the Eucharist . Saint Chrysostome saith , k that Before the Bread be sanctifyed , we call it Bread , but when Gods grace [ after consecration ] hath sanctifyed it by the meanes of the Priest , it is freed from the name of Bread , and is accounted worthy of the name of the Body of Christ , although the nature of the Bread remaine still in it . Ch●ysostome sayth the nature of bread remayneth after consecration , they say nothing remaines but the outward formes and accidents of bread . Reply . Bellarmin l saith that this Epistle is not extant amongst Saint Chrysostome's Workes : and when Peter Martyr objected this place to Stephen Gardiner Bishop of Winchester , the Bishop replyed , m That it was none of Chrysostomes , but another Iohns of Constantinople . Rejoynder . What though it were not then extant ? diverse parcells of Chrysostome have beene lately found out , and annexed to his other Workes . Besides , the same Bishop Gardiner reports , n that Peter Martyr saith , that this Treatise of Chrysostome was extant in a Manuscript , and found in the Library at Florence ; and that a Copie thereof remained in the Archbishop of Canterburies hands . Againe , they that would father t●is ●rea●●se on another , the● must bring us anoth●r Iohn of Constantinople , besides Chrysostome , and tell us what time hee lived ; it is usuall with the Church-storie , and S●int Austine , and Ierome to call Chrysostome Iohn of Consta●tinople , or Priest of Antioch . Lastly , this Authour saith nothing but what Saint Ambrose , Gelasius , and Theodoret have vouched . For whereas the H●retike E●tyches taught that Christ his body was changed into the substance of his Divinity after the resurrection ; and that the substance of his body remayned no more the same ; Pope Gelasius confuteth him by a similitu●e and comparis●n drawne from the Sacrament , to wit , T●at as the substance of Bread remayneth after consecration ; so Christ his bodily substance remained after the resurrection . His words are these : The Sacraments which wee receive , of the body and ●loud of Christ , are a divine thing , by meanes wh●r●of wee are made partakers of the divine nature ; and yet the substance or nature of Bread and Wine doth not cease to be . The Papists they tell us , that after consecration the substance of bread and wine is abolished , and the sha●e● , accidents , & quantity therof only remaine : but this is contrary to these Fathers assertion , who say , there ceaseth not to be the very substance of bread and wine . Neither will it serve to say p that Gelasius by substance meant accidents : for if Gelasius had not taken the word substance properly in both places , he had not concluded against the Hereticke . Reply . Pope Gelasius was not the Author of this q Treatise , but some other of that name . Rejoynder . There be divers Authors that entitle Pope Gelasius to it ? but were it Gelasius Bishop of Caesarea , as Bellarmine seemes to incline , or a more ancient Gelasius , Gelasius Citizenus , as Baronius would have it ; the record is still good against our adversaries , for it is confessed on all sides , that he was an Orthodoxe Father , and very ancient . Theodoret brings in Eranistes in the person of an Eutycl●ian Heretike , who confounded the two natures in Christ , and ( falsely ) held , that The body of Christ after his Ascension , being Glorified , was swallowed up of the Deitie , and continued no more the same humane and bodily essence , as before his resurrection it had been ; and for defence of this his Heresie , he takes his comparison from the Eucharist and argues in this sort : t Even as the symbols or signes of the Lords body and bloud , af●er the words of Invocation ( or Consecration ) are not the same , but are changed into the Body of Christ ; even so after his Ascension was his body changed into a divine substance . To this Objection of the H●retikes , the Orthodoxe or Catholike ( which was Theodoret himselfe ) replies , and retorts his owne instance upon him thus : You are caught ( saith he u ) in your owne net , for as the mysticall signes in the Eucharist , after sanctification ( or Consecration ) doe not goe out of their proper nature , but continue in their former figure , and substance , and may be seene and felt as before : so the body of Christ after the Resurrection remaineth in it's former figure , forme , circumscription , and ( in a word ) the same substance which it had before , although after the Resurrection it be immortall , and free from corruption . In which passage we see the Heretike held , that Bread is changed after consecration into the substance of Christ's body , and so do our adversaries ; the Orthodoxe or Catholike taught , that Bread after consecration remaineth in substance the same , and so doe we teach . Theodoret indeed ( and so doe we ) acknowledged that Christ's body after his Ascension was changed from a corruptible , to an immortall and glorious body , but yet not changed in substance ; it still remained the same in substance ; even as the Elements in the Sacrament remaine the same in substance , x that they Were before consecration , and may be seene and fealt , though they be changed in use , from common to consecrated bread and wine . Now if the Elements of Bread and Wine ( according to this Orthodoxe Father ) remaine in their former substance , shape , and species , then is not the whole substance of bread and wine changed into the whole substance of the body and bloud of Christ ; and where is then your Transubstantiation . Answer . B●llarmine answereth this place by distinguishing the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , substantia , saying y ; When Theodoret saith , ●hat the substance of the Elements remaynes , and is not changed , hee speaketh not of substance , as it is opposed to accidents , but of the ●ssence and nature of accidents , which hee alwayes understandeth by Symbols . Reply . Theodoret in this very Dialogue exactly distinguisheth betweene Substance and Accidents ; and sheweth that by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hee meanes not Accidents , but Substance properly so taken , saying ; z Therefore wee call a body substance , and health and sicknesse an accident ; by which passage it is evident against Bellarmine , that Theodoret takes not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the es●ence , specially of accidents , but for substance prope●ly so called , as it is opposed to Accidents . Besides , if Theodoret had thought ( as the Papists hold ) that the substance of bread and wine ceaseth , and is changed into the very body and bloud of Chirst ; and that the accidents thereof onely remaine , as namely the whitenesse , roundnesse , taste , or the like ; then could not this Father have drawne or r●torted an Argument from the Sacrament , to pro●ve that the substance of Christ's body remayned after his ascension ; for then ( as the learned on ou● side have well observed ) a the Hereticke upon the doctrine of Transubstantiation , might have inferred this erronious opinion , about the humane nature of Christ , to wit , that as in the Eucharist there is onely the outward shape and forme of bread , and not the reall substance : even so in Christ , there was the shape and forme of flesh but not the very nature . The same Theodoret saith , b that our Saviour honoured the visible symbols with the name of his body and bloud ; not changing the nature , but adding grace to nature . The same Th●odoret saith , c that our Saviour gave the signe the name of his body . What can a man say more expresse ? then that in th●se words , This is my hody , our Saviour hath given to the signe , that is to say , to the bread , the name of his body . Answer . You stand much upon Theodoret , but Gregorie Valence d tells you that Theodoret was taxed of errour by the Councell of Ephesus , although he afterwards revoked his errour . Reply . You should have showne that the Councell taxed him with errour in this point of the Sacrament ; or that he retracted this opinion as erronious , and then you had said somewhat . It is true indeed , that at fi●st he was not so firme in his faith , being too much addicted to Theodorus Bishop of Mopsvestia , and to Nestorius , so that he wrote against the twelve Chap●ers which Cyril composed against the Nestorians ; but afterwards he revoked his errour , and accu●sed Nestorius , e and whosoever should not confesse the blessed Virgin to bee the mother of God , whereupon th● Councell of Chalcedon received him into their Communion . f Besides , in the Dialogues alleadged , Theodoret hath notably opposed the Grand Heretique Eutyches , and therin shewed himselfe very Orthodoxe . I proceede to Saint Austine , the Oracle of the Latine Fathers ; whose judg●ment touching the Eucharist hath beene in part declared in the first Centurie . Hee held that those words , This is my Body were to be taken in a figurative sence ; his rule is , that whensoever the Signe ( as the Bread ) being called Chris●'s body , hath the name of The thing signified , the speech is alwayes figurative , g for Sacraments be signes which often doe take the names of those things , which they doe signifie and repr●sent , Therefore doe they carry the names of the things themselves . Thus Baptisme the signe of Christ's buriall , is called Christ's buriall ; now as h Baptisme is called Christ's Burial , so is the Sacrament of the Body of Christ , called his Body ; and againe , i Christ doubted not to say , This is my Body , when he gave a signe of his body . The same Father upon occasion of Christ's speech , Except you eate the flesh of the Son of man , [ Ioh. 6.53 . ] gives us this general rule ; k That whenso●ver we find in Scripture any speech of commanding some heynous act , or forbidding some laudable thing , there to hold the spe●ch to be figurative , even as this of eating the flesh of Chr●st . Now of this Sacrament doth not Christ say , Take , eate , This is my Body ? Saint Austines words are these : If the Scripture seeme to command any vile or ill fact , the speech is figurative ; Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , yee have no life in you ; facinus vel flagitium videtur jubere , Christ seemeth to command a wicked and sinfull act ; figura est ergo ; It is therefore a figurative speech , m Commanding us to partake of the passion of Christ , and sweetly and profitably keepe in memory that his flesh was crucified for us . Now for the manner of our feeding on Christs body , the same Father tells us , n that It is not corporall and sensuall , but spirituall , credendo by believing : How shall I send up my hand into heaven , to take hold on Christ fitting there ? Send thy Faith ( saith he ) and thou hast hold of him . Againe , o Why preparest thou thy teeth and thy belly ? Believe , and thou hast eaten ; and againe , p For this is to eate the living bread , to believe in him ; he that believeth in him , eateth . Objection . You rely much upon Saint Augustine , but he makes for us , as may appeare by that place where he saith , q that Christ at his Supper carried himselfe in his owne hands . Answer . Our learned Doctor , Bishop Morton hath notably cleered this place . Saint Augustine expounding the 3● . Psalme , and falling upon a wrong translation of that place in Samuel 1.21.13 . And David feigned hims●lfe mad in their hands , reades thus , He carried himselfe in his owne hands . Now this cannot ( saith he ) be meant of David , or any other man literally ; they are meant then of Christ , when he said of the Eucharist , This is my body . Now these words , Et ferebatur in manibus suis , are neither in the Originall Hebrew text , nor in your vulgar Translation , for there it is● & collabebatur inter manus eorum , David playing the mad man , slipt , or fell into the hands of others ; they that transcribed the Septuagint mistaking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his hands , his owne hands , for their hands occasioned this interpr●tation . Now Saint Austine interprets himselfe , and answereth his Quomodo ferebatur ? with a Quodammodo , an s Adverbe of likenesse and similitude , saying that After a certaine manner Christ carried himselfe in his owne hands , and thus he qualifies his fo●mer speech ; so that it cannot be understood of Christs Corporall carrying of his body properly in his owne hands ; but Quodammodo , af●er a so●t : and thus Saint Austine saith , t Secu●dum quendam modum , this Sacrament after a sort is the body of Christ , n●t literally , but as Baptisme ( the Sacrament of Faith ) is called faith , to wit , figuratively and im●roperly . Objection . You alleadged Saint Chrysostome against Transubstantion , but he makes for it , saying , u Doest thou see bread ? doest thou see wine ? doe these things goe to the draught as other meates doe ? not so , thinke not so● for as when waxe is put to the fire , nothing of the substance remaineth , nothing redoundeth ; so here also t●inke thou the mysteries consumed with the substance of the body of Christ. Answer . This place ( as Bishop Bilson saith ) x makes not for you ; for you say the substance is abolished , but the accidents of bread and wine remaine : but when you put waxe in●o the fire , nothing , neither shew , nor substance , nor accidents remaine ; and yet if you consult the Schooles , they will tell you the accidents onely perish , the matter doth not . Neither doth Chrysostome say , that the mysteries are consumed by the body of Christ● but hee saith , So thinke when thou commest to the mysteries ; that is , thinke not on the elements , but lift up the eyes of thy minde above them , as if they were consumed : and this hee spoke to stirre up the Communicants , rather to marke in this Sacrament the wonderfull power and effects of Gods spirit and grace , than the condition , and naturall digestion of the bread and wine . And it is cleare that this was his meaning : for in the very next wordes following he saith y ; Wherefore approaching ( to the Lords Table ) doe not thinke that you receive the divine body at the hands of a man , but that you take a fiery coale from a Seraphim , or Angel , with a paire of tongs . By this straine of rhetoricke Chrysostome ( as his manner is ) perswadeth the people to come to the Lords Table with no lesse reverence , than if they were to receive a fiery coale ( as Esay did in his vision ) from one of the glorious Seraphims . Chrysostome had no intent that the bread was transubstantiated , no more than that the Priest was changed into an Angel , or his hand into a payre of tongs , or the body of Christ into a coale of fire ; and hee useth the same amplification in both the speeches , the same phrase [ thinke you ] and at the same time , and to the same people : so that if one bee ( as certainely it is ) a straine of rhetoricke , why not the other also ? Sixtus Senensis gives a good rule for interpretation of the Fathers speeches , specially in this argument ; z The sayings of Preachers , are not to be urged in that rigour of their words ; for after the manner of Oratours , they use to speake many times hyperbolically , and in excesse . And hee instanceth in Chrysostome , as well hee might , for hee is full of them , even there where hee speakes of the Sacraments , hee saith , a That our teeth are fixed in the flesh of Christ ; that b our tongues are dyed red with his bloud ; and againe , c That it is not the Minister , but God that baptizeth thee , and holdeth thy head . Now these and the like sayings must be favourably construed , as being improper speeches , rhetoricall straines , purposely uttered to move affections , stirre up devotion , and bring the Sacrament out of contempt , that so the Communican●s eyes may not bee finally fixed on the outward elements of bread and wine , being in themselves but transitory and corruptible creatures ; but to have their hearts elevated and lift up by faith to behold the very body of Christ , which is represented in these mysteries . Otherwise , the Fathers come downe to a lower key , when they come to speake to the point , yea or no : and accordingly Saint Chrysostome , when once he is out of his Rhetoricall veine , and speaks positively and doctrinally , sayth , d When our Lord gave the Sacrament , hee gave wine ; and againe , e Doe wee not offer every day ? Wee offer indeed , but by keeping a memory of his dea●h ; and hee puts in a kind of caution , or correction , lest any should mistake him ; Wee offer ( saith hee ) the same Sacrifice , or rather the remembrance thereof . And such a Commemorative and Eucharisticall sacrifice we acknowledge . Object . Saint Cyril of Alexandria , useth the word corporally , saying ; f that by the mysticall benediction , the Sonne of God is united to us corporally , as man , and spiritually , as God. Answer . Hereby is meant a full perfect spirituall conjunction with the sanctified Communicants , excluding all manner of Imagination , or fantasie ; and not a grosse , and fleshly being of Christ's body in our bodyes , according to the appearance of the letter ; otherwise , this inconvenience would follow , that our bodies must be in like manner corporally in Christ's body ; for Cyril as hee saith , Ch●ist is corporally in us , so he saith , g weare corporally in Christ ; by corporally then he meaneth , that neere , and indissoluble union , in the same sence that the Apostle useth it , saying , In him dwel●eth all the fulnesse of the Godhead bodily , Coll. 2.9 . bod●ly , that is indissolubly . B●sides , Christ is likewise joyned corporally to us by the Sacrament of Baptisme , and yet therein there is no Transubstantiation . Of Image-worship . Saint Hierome saith ; h We worship one Image which is the Image of the invisible and omnipotent God. Saint Austine saith , i No Image of God ought to be worshipped , but that which is the same thing that he is , meaning Christ Iesus , [ Col. 1.15 . Hebr. 1.3 . ] nor yet that for him , but with him . And as for the representing of God in the similitude of a man , he resolveth that it is Vtterly unlawfull k to erect any such Image to God in a Christian Church . He condemneth the use of Images , even when they are not adored for themselves , but made instruments to worship God , saying , l Thus have they deserved to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles in painted Images , and not in written bookes . The same Austine writing of the manners of the Catholike Church , directly severeth the case of some men , who were wont to kneele superstitiously in Churh yards before the tombes of Martyrs , and the painted histories of their sufferings ; these private mens cases he severeth from the common cause , and approved practice of the Catholike Church , saying , m Doe not bring in the company of rude m●n , which in the true religion it selfe are superstitious . I know many that are worshippers of Graves and pictures . Now this I advise that you cease to speake evill of the Catholike Church by upbraiding it with the manners of those men , whom she her selfe condemneth , and seeketh every day to correct as naughtie children , so that in Saint Austines times , ( as is already no●ed ) * Images , and Image-worship were not used by any generall warranted practice ; if some mis-informed men used it , this could not in Saint Austines opinion , make it a Church duty , necessary and Catholike , or draw it to bee a generall custome . Bellarmine answereth , n that Saint Austine wrote this in the beginning of his Conversion to Christianitie , and that upon better information he changed his mind ; but he tells us not in what part of his Retractations this is to be found . Divers other shifts besides are used herein : and some fly to the distinction of an Idoll and an Image , but that will not se●ve ; for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is often translated Simulachrum , a likenesse or simili●●de ; and as eve●y Idoll is an Image of some thing , so every Image worshipped turnes Idoll ; there may be some ods in the language , but none in the thing it selfe . Bellarmine minceth o the matter , and would have the Image worshipped , not prope●ly , and because of it selfe , but reductively , inasmuch as it doth expresse the Sampler : Others p hold that the Image is to bee worshipped in it selfe , and with the s●m● wo●ship that the person is , which is represented ; so that the Crucifixe is to be reverenced with the selfe same hon●ur that Christ Iesus is . And as for the vulgar people , they goe bluntly to it with down●right adoration Cassander saith , q It is more manifest , than that it can bee denyed , that the worship of Images and Idols hath too much prevailed , and the sup●rstitious humour of people hath beene so cockered● that nothing hath beene omitted among us , either of the highest adoration and vanity of Painims , in worshipping and adoring Images . Polydore also saith , r People are growne to such madnesse , that there are many rude and stupid persons , which adore Images of wood , stone , marble , and brasse , or paint●d in windowes , not as signes , but as though they had sense ; and they repose more trust in them , than in Christ or the Saints , to which they are dedicated . Ludovicus Vives saith , * Sai●ts are esteemed and worshipped by many , as were the Gods among the Gentiles . Objection . The honour or dishonour done to the Image redoundeth to the person represented , or p●ototype , as appeares by our being uncovered , & using reverence in the Kings Chamber of presence , and before his Chaire of estate , when his person is absent ; in like sort , the honour , and worship due to the Image , redoundeth to Christ and his Saints : now if an Image bee capable of contempt and reproach , it is also capable of honour and worship . Answer . The Rule [ The dishonour done to the Image redoundeth to the person ] is true , specially in civill affaires , when the Party would be honoured by the Image : and thus was Theodosius grieved with them of Antioch , s for casting downe his wives Statue . It may also redound to the p●rson by accident , that is , when a man doth a thing with a purpose to dishonour him ; as Iulian did , t when hee pulled downe the Image of Christ , and set up his owne . Besides , these contraries are not paria ; for it suffiseth , to the dishonouring of God , that there bee an evill affection or intention : but a good intention is not sufficient to the honouring of God , except the meanes , as well as the meaning bee prescribed of God. Lastly ( as learned Bishop White saith u ) this Similitude halteth : for the Kings Chaire of State , and his image , when they are honoured or dishonoured , are conjoyned with his person , by civil ordinance and relation : but the artificiall Image of Christ and his Crosse are not conjoyned with Christ , by divine ordination , or by relation grounded on Christs Word , but by an imaginary act of the superstitious worshipper ; also civill and religious worship , are of diverse beginnings , and formes , and every thing that is possible , lawfull , and commendable in the one , is not so in the other . Objection . Adoration is performed to Images , as being done outwardly , relatively , and transitorily unto the Image ; inwardly , affectuously , absolutely , and finally unto Christ. Ans●er . If you adore Images outwardly , relatively , and transitorily , then ( as the same Bishop saith x ) you make Images a partiall object of adoration : but God himselfe who saith , I will not give my glory to another ( to wit , in whole or in part ) neither my prayse to graven Images ( Esay 42.8 . ) hath excluded ●mages from copartnership with himselfe in adoration , Of Prayer to Saints . Concerning Prayer to Saints , Saint Hierome , or whosoever y else was the Authour of those Commentaries on the Proverbs , sayth z : Wee ought to invocate , that is , by Prayer to call into us none but God. And in another place , a Whatsoever I shall utter seemeth dumbe , because hee ( Nepotian ) being defunct , heareth me not . Theodoret upon the 2. and 3. Chapter to the Colossians expressely sayes ( and that by the authority of the Councell of Laodicea ) that Angels are not to bee prayed unto : and if not Angels , not Martyrs . Saint Austi●e in his booke which hee wrote of true religion , saith ; b The worshipping of men that are dead should bee no part of our religion . Papists invocate Saints in the Liturgie of their Masse , which the Ancients did not . Saint Austine saith expressely , that Martyrs were named at the Communion Table , but not invocated : his words are these , c At which Sacrifice the Martyrs are named in their place and order , as men of God , which have overcome the world in the confession of him ; but yet notwithstanding , they are not invocated by the Priest which sacrifiseth . Answer . This place is thus answered : * The Priest doth not invocate Saints by direct Prayer . Besides , the Sac●ifice is directed to God the Father alone , and that may be the reason why the Saints are not invocated . Reply . Saint Austine excludeth all invocation of Saints , both direct and indirect , in the administra●ion of the Eucharist . Nei●her will th●se distinctions helpe them ; for though the invoc●tion of them be not a direct , absolute , and sov●raigne invocation , yet if it be an indirect , relative , or ●●bal●erne invocation , an invocation it is : ( and such a one is the invocation at the Altar in the Masse : for thus it is , d Libera nos Domine ab omnibus malis , &c. interced●nte pro nobis beatâ virgine , &c. beatis Apostolis , &c. cum omnibus Sanctis . ) and so what shall become of Saint Augustine's non invocantur , who knew none of these distinctions of the Cardin●ll's , which in that Age , and many Ages after were not heard of , e saith our learned Bishop of Winchester . Neither can the Cardi●all alleadge any reason , why if the Saints may be prayed unto , they may not be so , as well by the Priest as by the people ; as well at M●sse , as at Mattines ; as well in the body of the Church , as at the Altar ? A● for th●ir new distinction , of Sacrificall and unsacrificall Invocation , and their conceit , that the Sacrifice is Offered ●nto God the Father alone , it is ( sayth the same Lea●n●d Bishop ) f refuted by the Canon it selfe of the Masse : th● concl●sion whereof , g is Placeat tibi sancta T●i●i●as obs●q●ium servitut●s meae , &c. So that that the Sacrifice is offer●d ●o the whole Trinitie . Besides there are divers Coll●ct● more● directed unto Christ himselfe , and ●●l of them said , Dum assistitur Altari . Now in case that any upon consideration of their own● unworthin●sse , and Gods dreadfull Majestie , should se●k● to Go● b● mediation of others ; Saint C●rysostom● of all the F●●he●s is most plentifull in refuting this course of Int●●cession by others . When thou hast need to sue unto men ( sai●h he ) h thou art forced first to deale wit● doore keepers , an● Po●ters , and to intreat Parasites and Flatt●rers , and to goe a long way about . But with God there is no such matter ; he is intreated without a● Intercesson : it sufficeth onely that thou cry in thine heart and bring teares with thee ; and entring in straightway thou mayst draw him unto thee . And for example hereof , he sets before us the woman of Canaan , Shee entreated not Iames , ( sayth he ) i shee beseecheth not Iohn , neither do●h she come to Pe●er , but brake thorow the whole company of them , saying , I have no need of a M●d●atour , but taking repentance with me for a spoakesman , I come to the fountaine it selfe . For this cause ●id he d●scend , for this cause did he take flesh , that I might have the boldnesse to speake unto him : I have no need of a mediatour , have thou mercie upon me . And whereas some repose such co●fide●ce in the intercession of the Saints , that they looke to receive greater benefits by them , than by their owne p●ayers , he brings in againe the w●man of Canaan , and wi●heth us to observe , k How when others intreated , he put her backe : but when she her selfe cryed out , pr●ying for the gift , he yielded . Yea , he sayth farther ; that , l God then doth most , when we doe not use the entreatie of others : for as a kind friend then blameth he us m●st , as not daring to trust his Love , when we entreat others to pray unto him for us : thus use we to doe with those that se●ke to us : then we gratifie them most , when they come unto us by themselves and not by others . Answer . Chrysostome spoke thus , m against such idle fellowes as Committed th●ms●lves wholly ●o the patronage of their Tu●elar Saints , and themselves lived in their Sinnes ; or he uttered such speeches Homily wise , n as in the Pulpit , not Dogmatically , as delivering his judgement . Reply . As if a man might not deliver his judgement in the Pulpit ; for albeit in figures and phrases , and manner of handling , there is s●me d●ff●rence , betweene a Preacher before the people , and a R●ade● before the learned ; yet no learned Go●ly man , such as Chrysostome was , will so advisedly , so vehemently , and often times as he did , utter any thing in the Pulpit , before the weaker , the truth whereof he is not able to justifie in the Schooles before the best learned . Neither we●e they whom Chrysostome taxed so very laz●e , but rather such as tooke more paines than needed ; and ( as hee saith ) went a long way about , by se●king to their patrons , mediatours , and favourites ; whereas hee shewes them a neerer may , to wit , to goe immediately to the Master of Requests , Christ Iesus . Objection . You have produced diverse Fathers against Saintly invocation , and much pressed Saint Chrysostome's testimony , whereas hee makes for us ; for Chrysost●me saith o that the Emperour laying aside all princely state , stood humbly praying unto the Saints , to bee intercessours for him unto God. Answer . Bellarmine indeed alleadgeth p Chrysostome's sixty sixt Homily Antiochenum● and yet the same Bellarmine , upon better advise , when he is out of the heat of his polemick controversies , & comes to a pacifick Treatise of the Writings of the Fathers ; then hee tells us , q that Chrysostome made but one and twenty Homilies to the people of Antioch , and that no more are to bee found in the ancient Libraries . And yet posito , sed non concesso , admit that these words were Ch●ysostome's indeed , yet they reach not home ; for they speake onely what the Emperour did facto● not d● jure : it is onely a relation , what hee did out of his private devotion , it is no approbation of the thing done . Now what some one or two shall doe , carryed away with their owne devout affection , is not straight way a rule of the Church . Besides , though the Saints interceded for us , yet it will not hence follow , that wee are to invocate them , having no warrant from God so to doe : now in such a high poynt of his worship , wee must keepe us to his command r , and that must guide ou● devoti●n . The other places of Chryso●tome alleadged by B●llarmine speake of the Saints living , and not of the Saints deceased . Lastly , Chrysostome ( as hath beene observed in the poynt of the E●cha●ist ) speak●s oftentimes rather out of his rhetorick● , than out of his divinity . Sixtus Senensis delivereth this observation concerning the Fathers , and hee names Chrysostome , s That in their sermons we may not take their words strict●y , and in rigour , because they many times breake out into declamations , and declare and repeat matters , by Hyperboles , and other figurative speeches . In a word , whatsoever Chrysostome report of others , himselfe ( as wee have heard ) was all for our immediate addresse of our Prayers unto God. Objection . Bellarmine saith , t that Theodoret shutteth up the story of the Father● lives in these termes : My suit and request is , that by the Prayers and intercession of the Saints , I may finde divine assistance . And the same Bellarmine saith , u that Theodoret in his booke of the Greekes hath much touching Prayer to Saints . Answer . Theodoret saith onely , Rogo & quaeso , I beseech and intreat , not th●s , nor that Sa●nt , but God alone : to this end and purp●se , that by their intercession and prayers , I may have assi●●ance . Now to the booke de curandis Graecorum affectibus questioned , whether i● be x Theodoret's , or no ; wee oppose that which is Theodoret's out of question ; upon the second and third Chapters to the Colossians , where hee exp●essely sayes ( and that by the au●hority of the Councell of Laodicea ) Angels are not to be prayed to , and if not Angels , then not Saints and Ma●tyrs . Objection . Saint Austine sayth , It is injurie to pray for a Martyr , by whose prayers we on the other side ought to be recommended . Answer . This place is not to the pu●pose , for he sayth onely that the Saints pray for us , which thing we have never denyed . We doe out of Godly conside●ations presume , that albeit they know not the necessity of particular men , yet they pray for the Church in generall . But that wee should for this cause invocate them , or yield them any religious service , S. Austine doth not avouch . The other testimonies alleadged by Bella●mine , out of Saint Austine , are all for Martyrs , and not for Saints ; now in Saint Aust●nes opinion , the Martyrs had an esp●ciall priviledge above other Saints . B●sides they might well have spared the alleadging of Saint Austine , Theodoret Chrysostome , Prudentius , Saint Ambrose , Origen , Irenaeus , and othe●s , in proofe of Sai●tly invocation ; ina●much as these with divers others , are by their great Author z Sixtus Senensis reckoned up amongst them that held the Saints departed did not injoy the presence of God , ●ill after th● generall Resurrection ; which if they h●ld that they did not , then would they not hold that they were to bee prayed to ; they being secluded from Gods presence , being onely in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in a Some certaine Receptacles or Wards , b attending in the porch or base Court abroad ; not adm●tted to the presence of the Almighty ; and so not seeing● hearing nor knowing , whether prayer were made to them at all , or no ; being but as yet in Atrijs , as Bernard would have it c . For in such Retiring or drawing roomes , they placed the soules of all the faithfull , except those of the Martyrs . Objection . Maximus Taurinensis in his Sermon upon Saint Agnes , sayth , d By all such Prayers and Orizons as I can conceive , I beseech the● , vouchsafe to remember me . Answer . The●e Sermons of Maximus , as great as he was in name , they are not greatly to be esteemed ; e inasmuch as they goe with an Aliâs , sometimes under one name , sometimes under another , f having inde●d no certaine knowne Father : so that they are not to goe for Maximes in divinity , or rules of Faith. But suppose they be his owne words ; they are but a Rhetoricall flourish which he used in his commendatorie , Panegyricall Sermon upon Saint Agnes her Anniversarie ; and he speakes but faintly , Quibus possumus precibus ; in effect g as I can , so I direct this my addresse unto thee : heare and helpe me accordingly as thou canst , and maist : so the man , in the point was not so fully perswaded of that , or any Saints assistance , as that hee went farther than opinion . Objection . Victor Bishop of Vtica , when the Church was pestered with the barbarous Vandals , h calleth to the Angels , Prophets , Patriarks , and Apostles , to Deprecate , and Pray for the distressed Church . Answer . Victor Bishop of Vtica , is an Historian ; and such are Narratores , relaters of other mens Acts , not Expositores , of their owne opinions ; narrations have no more weight or worth , then have those Authors from whence they proceed . But Vic●or in this place laying aside the person of an Historian , takes up the carriage of a Panegyrist meerely , as appeares by his expostulating with Saint Peter , and chiding him , which was not really and indeed , but onely Rhetorically , and Figuratively , saying , Why art thou Blessed Saint Peter silent ? Why dost not thou above all the rest take care of the Sheepe and Lambes committed unto thee : Now if this were a straine of Rhetoricke , why also is not that his compellation of the Saints Triumphant to assist the Church Millitant , and then distressed . Object . Fulgentius speakes i of the blessed Virgins helping all suc● women as ●lie unto her . Answer . The same Au●hor goes on ( th●ugh Bellarmine conceale it ) & tell● us , that the Virgin Mary ( whom he intitles the new Eve , as Christ is called the new Adam ) restored all womankind , as Christ did all mankind . Shall we th●nk that the true Fulgentius ( a man of worth in his time ) would thus par● stakes be●wixt Christ Iesus and the Virgin Mary , in that great work of our Redemption ? Surely , this is some coun●erfeit going under the name of Fulgentius . And so I finde , that the whole Homily is in the tenth Tome of Saint Austin's workes , u●der the Title of the fiftee●th Sermon de Tempore . And the Divines of Lovan k found it ascribed unto Severianus in some Copies , an● print●d amongst Fulgentius his wo●kes ; so that it appeares to be but filius populi , some b●●e issue , whose Father being meane and u●knowne , yet the brat is layd at some honest mans doore . Object . l Saint Leo would have us to make sute for the votes , prayers , and suffrages of the Saints , speci●lly Saint Peters . Answer . Saint Leo goes no farther than this , By his merits and prayers wee hope to finde assistance . Besides , he speakes of Intercession without any Invocation . Object . The Fathers in the Chalcedon Councell said , m Let the Martyr Flavianus pray for us . A●swer . Flavianus , a Catholike Bishop was murdered for an Hereticke by the Ephesin Latrocinie , and Dioscarus his Faction ; the worthy Councell of Chalcedon loosed him af●er his death , and honoured him as a Saint and Martyr : insomuch that upon the mention of his name , the Fathers there assembled made this joynt acclamation , Flavianus lives after his death : Let the Martyr pray for us . Now this was votum , non invocatio , a wish , and no direct invocation . Or if they will reade it , Martyr pro nobis orat , the Martyr prayes for us , to wit , in geneall , wee doe not denye it , nor doth it helpe their cause . By this we see what to thinke of the thirty Fathers Greek and Latine , mustered up by Bellarmine for proofe of Saintly invocation ; they may ( as learned Winchester observes ) n bee put into three rankes ; some of them being indeed true Fathers , but not truely alleadged : others truely alleadged , but they bee not homines legales , good men and true Fathers , but counterfeits , bearing their names : others be true Fathers , and truly alleadged , but they speake not ad rem , to the poynt in question . To come to particulars ; there be seaven of the thirty , who lived after the first five hundred yeares , so that they are later , and Post-nati unto Primitive antiquitie , being out of the verge of the limited time , and out of the compasse of the Churches puritie ; Damascen living about the yeare seven hundred and thirty , and Theophylact surviving William the Conquerour , some of them also be partiall , as speaking to the poynt when it got some footing in the Church . There be others to the number of eight , who have put on the visour of antiquitie , and would seeme ancient , but are justly suspected to bee ranke counte●feits ; and men of yesterday in comparison . Two or three of the Greeke Fathers are wrong cited , by a false writ , and a corrupt translation . There be seven other of the witn●sses , who speake not positively as Divines , but like Poets , Panegyrists , & Oratours , with Figures , Apostr●phe's , and Prosopopeiae's in a Poeticall veine , and Rhetoricall streine ; of this ranke is Nazianzen's Respice de caelo ; Hierome's Vale ● Paula ; Maximus , his Itaque ô splendida virgo ; Nyssen , his comp●llation to Theodore the Martyr , Coge chorum Martyrum ; Saint Victor , his adestote Angeli , and Paulinus and Prudent●us with th●ir Poetry . The o●her sixe tha● remain● upon record , speake not to the poynt : they t●ll us indeed of the Saints inte●ceding for us , to wit , in gen●rall ; but this inferre●h not our invocation of them . They tell us also of some private mens opinion , and the pract●ce of so●●e few ; but this doth not wa●rant it to have beene the doctrine and practice of the Church . Of Ius●ification by Faith. Al●hough Faith onely justifie , yet is not Faith alone , or solitarie in the person justified ; even as the eye though it onely see , yet it is n●t alone in the body , but joyned with the rest of the members ; in like sort , Faith a●d Charity where they are not both joyntly together , there ( as Leo sayth ) o they are both wanting . Saint Augustine saith , p That Faith onely purifieth the ●eart . Saint Chysostome often useth the selfe same q forme of spe●ch , to wit , t●at Faith onely justifieth . Saint Augustine saith , r He is sinne , and wee are justice ; not our owne , but Gods ; not in our selves , but in him ; as he is sinne , not his owne , but ours ; not in hims●lfe , but in us : so are wee made the ju●tice of God in him , as he is sinne in us ; to wit , by Imputation . And againe , s In the way o● Faith , they are reckoned for no sinners ( and therfore are ●eputed Iust ) who have not their sinnes imputed to them . This f●ee remissi●n of sinnes he elswhere notably describeth , saying , t If God hath covered our sinnes , he will not obs●rve them , he will not thi●ke upon them , to punish them , he will ●ot take knowledge , but rat●er pardon t●em . It i● cle●re also out of Saint Austine , that there is such impe●fect on in our wo●ks , as tha● they cannot justifie . All our Righteousnesse ( saith he ) u standeth ra●her in the remission of our sinnes , than in any perfection of justice ; and againe , x Woe be to the commendablest life we leade ( saith he ) if thou Lord setting thy mercie aside , shoul●st ●xamine it ; but this is our comfort , God dealeth graciously with us , accepting our willing desires , in sted of the worke done , as Saint Paul saith , 2 Cor. 8.12 . and accordingly Saint Austine saith , y All the commandements of God are then esteemed to be done , when as that is forgiven , whatsoever is not done . Of Merit . Concerning Merits , or the dignity of good workes equall to the Reward , Saint Paul is against it , saying ; z That the suff●rings ( Martyrdomes ) of this prese●t time are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall b●e revealed in us ; and both Hierome a and Chrysostome b alleadge this place against Merit . Leo saith , c The measure of coelestiall gifts depends not upon th● quality of workes . Saint Au●tine sai●h , d Thou shalt not receive eternall life for thy merit , but onely for grace . And they speake reason ; for hee that would merit or deserve any thing at another mans hand , must of himselfe e by his owne power , doe something , that the other had no former claime unto : now our good workes , inasmuch as they are good , are God● fr●e gifts . Wee are not sufficient to thinke any thing that is good . 2 Cor. 3.5 . It is God that worketh in us both the will and the deed Philip. 2.1 . And Man stands bound to God , either in strict termes of law , or by way of gratitude , as his creature , servant , and sonne , to doe him the uttermost of his service . My good deeds ( saith Austin ) f are thy ordinances , and thy gifts ; my evill ones● are my sinnes , and thy judgements . Theodoret saith , g The Crownes doe excell the Fights , the rewards are not to be compar●d with the labours ; for the labour is small and the gaine great that is hoped for ; and therefore t●e Apostle called those things that are looked for , not wages , but glory ( Rom. 8.18 . ) not wages , but grace ( Rom. 6.23 . ) The same Theodoret saith , h That things eternall doe not answer tempor●ll labours in equall poyze . Saint Hierome saith , i If wee consider our owne merits , we must despaire : And againe , When the day of judgement or death shall come , all hands shall faile , because no worke shall bee found worthy of the justice of God. Saint Chrysostome speakes very pathetically , k Etsi millies moriamur , Although ( saith hee ) wee die a thousand deaths , although wee did performe all vertuous actions , yet should wee come short by farre of rendring any thing worthy of those honours which are conferred upon us by God. Indeed the Lord rewards good workes , but this is out of his bounty , free favour , and grace , and not as of desert . Rom. 4.4 . In giving the Crowne of Immortality as our reward , God crowneth not our merits , but his owne gifts ; and , when God crowneth our merits ( that is , good deeds ) hee crowneth nothing else but his own gifts , saith l Saint Augustine . So that God indeed is become our debtour , not by our deserving● but by his owne gracious promise . God is faithfull , who hath made himselfe our debtour , ( saith Austin ) m not by receiving any thing from us , but by promising so great things to us : whatsoever he promised , hee promised to them that were unworthy . In a word , though hee give heaven propter promissum , for his promise sake , and because hee will bee as good as his word , yet it is not propter commissum , for any performance of ours . This was the doctrine of old , but the Rhemists have taken out a new lesson , saying n That good works are meritorious , and the very cause of salvation ; so farre , that God should be unjust , if hee rendred not heaven for the same . Now by this that hath beene alleadged , the Reader may perceive , that besides diverse other worthies of these times , S. Augustine the honor of this Age , agreeth with us in diverse weighty poynts of religion , as also in the matter of Gods free grace and justification , insomuch as Sixtus Senensis saith , o Whil'st Saint Austin doth contend earnestly against the Pelagians , for the defence of divine grace , he doth seeme to fall into another pit , and sometimes attributeth too little to Free-will . And Stapleton saith , p t●at Austin ( haply ) in his disputation against the Pelagians , went beyond all go●d measure . PA. Saint Austin prayed for the dead , to wit , for his mother Monica , desiring God not to enter into judgement with her . PRO. What though hee did so ? the Examples of Christians ( which sometimes slip into superstition ) are no rule for to ord●r our life , or devotion thereby . Besides , if hee prayed for eternall rest , and remission of sinnes to his deceased mother , this was not for that hee doubted shee injoyed them not , or that he feared shee indured any Purgatory paines ; but hee sued for the continuation , accomplishment , and manifestation thereof at the generall resurrection . Yea , even then when he prayed so , hee saith , q hee believes that the Lord had granted his request , to wit , that his mother was out of paine , and that God had forgiven her her sinnes : Which argueth , that it was rather a wish , than a Prayer , proceeding more out of affection to her , than any necessity to helpe her by his Prayers , who was then ( as he perswaded himselfe ) in a blessed estate : so that howsoever Saint Austin at first made a kind of prayer for his mother , yet a little after ( as it were repressing himselfe ) he saith , he believeth that shee is in a blessed state . The Letters of Charles the great unto our Off a King of Mercia , are yet extant ; wherein he wisheth , r That intercessions should be made for Pope Adrian then lately deceased ; not having any doubt at all ( saith he ) but that his blessed soule is at rest , but that wee may shew our faithfulnesse and love to our most deare friend . In a word , Saint Austin's prayer was not ( as Popish prayers now a dayes are made ) with reference to Purgatory ; and therefore it makes nothing against us . PAP . Did not Saint Austine hold Purgatory ? PRO. That some such thing should be after this life , it is not ( saith he ) s incred●ble , and whether it be so it may be i●quired , and either be found , or remaine hidden . In another place he leaveth it uncertaine , t Whether onely in this life men suffer , or whether there follow some such temporall judgements after this life , so that Saint Austine saith , it is not incredible , and it may be disputed whether it bee so , and perhaps it is so : words of doubting , and not of asleveration , but in other places he gives such reasons as overthrow it . u The Catholike Faith ( saith he ) resting upon divine authority , believes the first place , the kingdome of heaven , and the second hell , a third wee are wholly ignorant of ; yea wee shall finde in the Scriptures that it is not . Neither speakes he onely of places eternall that are to continue for ever ; besides , he there purposely disputes against Limbus Pucrorum , and rejects all temporary places , not acknowledging any other third place , and elsewhere he saith , x There is no middle place , hee must needes bee with the devill , that is not with Christ ; and againe , y Where every man 's owne last day finds him , therein the world's last day w●ll hold him . Thus farre Saint Austine according to the Scriptures , which acknowledges but two sorts of people , Children of the kingdome , and children of the wicked ; faithfull and unfaithfull , M●th . 13.38 . And accordingly two places after this life , Heaven and Hell , Luke 16.23 . Mark. 16.16 . Neither doth the Scrip●ure any where mention any temporary fire after this life ; the fire it speakes of , is everlasting and unquenchable , z and so doth Austine take it ; a and as for that fi●e which Saint Paul mentions , It is not a Purgatory , but a Probatorie fire . PA. Master Brerely hath set forth Saint Austines Religion , agreeble to ours . PRO. The Learned on our side have confuted him ; c and have prooved out of Saint Austines undoubted writings , that he agreed with the Church of England in the maine poynts of Faith and Doctrine . And so I come from Fathers , to Councels , and first to the sixth African Councel , held at Carthage , and another at Milevis ; both which denied Appeales to Rome . Now the case was this ; Apiarius a Priest of Africa , was for his scandalous life excommunicated d by Vrban his Dioc●san , and by an African Synod : Apiarius thus censured , fled to Pope Zozimus , who restored him to his place , & absolved him , & this he did , pretending that some Canon of the Nicen Councell had established Appeales from other places to Rome : the Bishops of Africa , not yielding too hastie credit to this allegation , debated the matter with Pope Zozimus and his successors , Boniface and Celestine for the space of foure or five yeares together , at length , e when the true and authentical copies of the Nicen Councell were searched by Cyril Patriarke of Alexandria , and Atticus Bishop of Constantinople , and that neither in the Greeke nor Latine copies , this Canon touching Appeales to Rome could be found ; then the African Bishops told the Pope that he should not meddle with the causes of men in their Province , nor receive any such to Communion as they had excommunicated . For the Councel of Nice , ( say they ) f Did consider wisely and uprightly that all matters ought to be determined in the places in which they began . Chiefly sith it is lawfull for any , if he like not the sentence of his Iudges , to appeale to the Synods of his owne province , yea , or farther also to a generall Synod : to wit , of the Dioces g ; Vnlesse there be any perhaps , h who will imagine that God would inspire the triall of right into one man , and denie it to a great number of Bishops assembled in a Synod : and so going forward with proofe , that the Pope ought not to judge their causes , either at Rome himselfe , or by his Legates sent from Rome ; they touched his attempt in modest sort , but at the quicke , Condemning it of pride , and smoakie statelinesse of the world . Reply . It may be ( saith Master Brerely ) that the Arrian Heretikes had corrupted the Nicen Councel , and therefore this Canon which the Pope alleadged could not bee found there . Answer . Had this pr●t●nded Canon made ought against Christ's Divin●tie , we might have suspected the Arrians to have corrupted it , if they could ; but this concerned the Pop●s ju●isd●ction in matter of Appeale , and trench'd not upon the Ar●ians tenet . Reply . Perhaps , the Pope when hee alleadged the Nicen Councel , meant the Sardican Councel , k wherein it was decreed , That they in Af●icke might appeale to Rome . Answer . The African Fathers say , l They could not meet with this pr●tend●d Canon in any Synodall of the Fathers , and therefore neither in the Nice● nor Sardican Councell , nor any other that could binde the whole Church . Besides , Saint Austin who was a principall actour in these African Councells , and subscribed to them m , hee was not ignorant of the Catholicke Sardican Councell ; for as Binius observes , n S Austin in his 162 Epistle calls it a plenary or full Councell of the whole Church ; neither indeed cou'd S. Austin be ignorant therof , inasmch as he rea● diligently the acts and decrees of every Councell , and search●d all Registries , by reason of the many conflicts hee had with Heretickes , saith Baronius o . Neither could t●e Afric●n Bishops b●e possibly ignorant of this Sardican Councell , inasmuch as some thirty sixe of them were present at it , p and subscribed to it , together with Gratus Primate of Carthage . Besides , it was yet within their memory , being held q little above fourscore yeares before this African Councell : neither could they be ignorant of the Decrees of that Councell , inasmuch as they were wont to bring a Copie of such Decrees as were agreed upon in generall Councells , as themselves say , r that Caecillianus brought with him the Decrees enacted at Nice , at which hee was present . Now if they knew this Sardican Councell , and the Decrees thereof , and yet knew no such Decree therein for Appealing from Africke to Rome , it followeth that the Pop●s preten●ed Canon for Appeales was no Canon of the holy Sardican Councell , and is therefore justly suspected to be forged by some of the Popes Factours , who would gladly have brought all the G●iest to his Mill , and the maine Sutes of Christendome unto his Court and Consistory . Reply . Bellarmine saith , s that the Decree forbad onely the Priests , and inferiour sort of the Cleargie to appeale to Rome , but not the Bishops . Answer . This is an idle allegation ; for the African Bishops provided for the conveniencie of their Priests and Cleargie , to hinder them from vexatious cou●se● , and wastfull expences in the poynt of Appeale , by saving them from unnecessary travailes beyond the Sea ; and therefore they intended much more , that they themselves should b●e freed . Besides , the Decree runs generally , and forbids all sorts of Apellants , from Africke to Rome , as well Bishops as others : the tenour of the decree is this : t It was thought good , that Priests , Deacons or other inferior Clerks , if in their causes they complaine of the judgements of their Bishops , and if they Appeale from them , they shall not Appeale but to the African Councels , or to the Primates of their Povinces ; but if any shall thinke that he ought to Ap●peale beyond the Sea ( meaning to Rome ) let him not be received any longer into the Communion of the Church of Africke . Binnius tells us , u that the question was not about the right of Appealing to the See of Rome , but de modo , touching the manner of the Popes admitting Appeales , of prosecuting and deciding complaints by his Legates , â latere ; but the decree forbids Appeales from Africke to Rome , and condemnes not onely the manner , but the matter it selfe . Objection . You say Saint Austine opposed the Pope ; but he was in good savour with x Zozimus , Boniface , and Celestine . Answer . Saint Austine kept good termes with the Bishops of Rome , y and he had reason for it ; because they were great Patriarkes , and he had occasion to use their helpe and countenance , for quelling the Pelagian Heretikes and others ; and yet notwithstanding when their factors began to usurpe jurisdiction over other Churches , then hee might stand for the right of his African Churches , and give his vote freely in the Councel . And thus we have found opposition made to the See of Rome by a whole nationall Councel , in the weighty poynt of Appeales ; for so Bellarmine makes appealing to Rome , and not Appealing from thence , a maine proofe of the Popes supremacie . Now to proceede , about the yeare foure hundred thirtie and one , was the third generall Councell held at Ephesus , against the Nestorian heresie which divided Christ into two persons ; it was summoned , not by the Pope but by the Emperour Theodosius the younger , At his becke , and by his command . a In the yeare foure hundred fiftie and one , the fourth generall Councel was held at Chalcedon , against Eutyches , ( who in opposition to Nestorius ) confounded the natures of Christ , making of two distinct natures , his humane and divine , but one nature ; whereas Nestorius rent is ●under his person , making two of one ; this Councel was called not by the Pope , b but by the Emperours Edict : it was first called at Nice and then recalled from thence , and removed to Chalcedon , wholly by the disposing of the Emperour ; yea , Leo Bishop of Rome , wrote to the Emperour instantly beseeching him , to call it in Italie : all the Priests ( saith he ) c doe beseech your clemencie with sighes and teares , that you would command a generall Councel to be celebrated in Italy . But their request was denied ; it was held at Chalcedon for the ease of the Bishops of Asia : Leo could not have it where hee would , but where and when the Emperour appointed ; and Leo was glad to send his deputies thither . Reply . The Emperours summoned Councels , but by the Popes consent . d Answer . It is true indeed , that the Popes consent was to these a●cient Councells , but no otherwise than as the consent of other chiefe Bishops ; they consented because they could not chuse , because they resolved to bee obedient , but they could not appoynt either place , or time . To proceed ; This famous Councell of Chalcedon renewed and ratifyed the Canon of the second General Councell held at Constantinople● and accordingly ( following their example ) gave the Bishop of Constantinople equall priviledges with the Bishop of Rome . The tenour of their decree runneth thus , Our fathers have very rightly given the preheminence to the See of ancient Rome , because the City was the seate of the Empire ; and wee moved with the same reasons have transferred the same preheminence to the s●at of New Rome ( that is to say Constantinople ) thinking it reason that the City honoured with the Empire , and with the presence of the Senate , and injoying the same priviledges as Ancient Rome , being the seat of the Empire , did ; and being after it the next should in matters Ecclesiasticall have equall advancement . Here wee see the reason which the Councell gives why Rome had the first place , was not because it was so ordained by Gods law , jure divino * , or in Saint Peters right ; but by the cosent and constitutions of men , because Rome was sometime the imperiall seat ; and the seat being thence translated to Constantinople , upon the same reason Constantinople was made equall with Rome . Reply . The Popes Legats protested against this Ca●on you alleadge . Answer . It is a rule in law ; g That is accounted the act of all , which is publikely done by the greater part , by the most voyces ; otherwise there would bee no judgement given , because some perverse ones would still dissent . Now all the Councell , save onely the Popes Legates , consented upon the Canon ; and they were to be ruled by ●he major part of the Councells votes : neither doe we finde that anciently the Pope had a negative or casting voyce in Councels ; and therefore the Chalcedon Councell notwithstanding the Legates opposition , professeth , h Hae● omnes dicimus , this is all our vote , and Tota Synodus , i the whole Councell hath confirmed this Canon for the honour of the S●● of Constantinople . And accordingly the whole k Councell wrote to Pope Leo. Why bu● the Popes Legat●s approoved it not , l they contradicted it . True , in this particular they dissented . But because they as al other B ps , even Pope Leo himselfe , consented un●o that generall Maxime , That the judgement of the greater part shall stand for the judgement of the whole Councell● in that generall both the Legates of Leo , and Leo himselfe , did implicitè , and virtually consent to that very Canon , from which actually and explicitè they did then dissent . For which cause , the most prudent Iudges truely said , Tota Synodus , the who●e Councell hath approved this Canon ; either explicitè or implicitè , either expressely or virtually approved it . Yea the whole Councell professed the same , and that even in the Synodall relation of their Acts to Pope Leo , saying : Wee have confirmed the Canon of the second Councell for the honour of the See of Constantinople ; declaring evidently that Act of approving that Canon to be the Act of the whole Synod , although they knew the Pope and his Legates contradicted it , as my learned kinsman Doctor Crakanthorpe hath well observed . m In a word , what though the Popes Legates were absent at the making of this Act , because they would not bee present , and when they were present disclaimed it ? the major part of the Synodall voyces carryed it ; and so the Decree passed , and was afterwards confirmed by the sixth Generall Councell . Reply . The Canon which equalleth the Patriarke of Constantinople to the Bishop of Rome makes not against us , since it was not confirmed by the Pope , who onely confirmed such n Canons as concerned matters of Faith. Now Councells are not of force till the Pope ratifie them . o Answer . By this reason you will make the Popes supremacie no Article of Faith ; And what though Leo opposed the Canon , yet as Cardinall Cusanus saith , p Vse and custome carryed it against the Pope . Besides , a Councel may be approved , though the Pope approve it not ; and so was the second generall Councel called against the Macedonian Heretikes and others ; it was held by the Catholike Church a lawfull generall Councel , though none of the Popes before Gregories time approved it , for Gregorie speaking of the Canons of that Councel , sayth , q Eosdem Canones , vel gesta Synodi illius , hactenus non habet , nec accipit , the Romane Church neither hath , nor approveth those Canons or Acts ; so that the Romane Church , untill Gregories time , neither approved the Canons nor Acts of that second generall Councel . And that is it , which Gregory intendeth , saying , hastenus non habet nec accipit , not meaning that till the yeare wherein he writ that Epis●le ; for himselfe before professed , r to embrace that s●cond Councel a● one of the foure Evangelists : but untill Gregories time , hactenus , untill this age , wherein I live , w●s the second Councel , the Canons or Acts thereof , not ha● nor approved by the Romane Chu●ch ; and yet all this time , it was held an approved Synod ; as the same D. Crakanthorpe hath observed . s Question . Had not the Bishop of Rome the priority ? Answer . He ha● a priority of Order , Honour , or Place before others ; but not of Iurisdiction over and above others ; but even as Ambassadors take place one of another , yet have no dominion one over another . Question . Was not Rome highly esteemed of old ? Answer . Old Rome was highly esteemed . First , because the●e the Apostles taught , and Rome professed the true Faith , and divers of her Bishops were Martyrs . Secondly , because Rome was sometime the chiefe seat of the Empire , and so the chiefe City had a chiefe Bishop . Thirdly , because the Easterne or Greeke Church was often at odds , the dissention ; the●efore such as were distressed had their recou●se for Councel and helpe , to the Patriarke of the West , the Bishop of Rome , an● this made him much r●spected ; and her bishops with●ll being Godly men , and in good favour with the Empe●ou●s , they of●en times ●elieved such as were distressed : thus Iul●us bishop of Rome helped the banished Athanasius : for these , and the like respects the Fathers sp●ke reve●ently of Rome , as she was in diebus illis , in their time . But what is this to Rome in her corrup● es●ate ? whil●s the Pope challengeth to himselfe infalibility of judgement , and not content with the primacie which his auncestors held , this Romane Dio●rephes se●kes preheminence , affecting not only an Hierarchie in the Church , but a Monarchy over the whole Church , as if Saint Peter ( whose successour he pretends to be ) had h●ld the Apostolike chayre , as it we●e in Fee , for him and his Successours for ever , and the other eleven had held thei●s for terme of life onely . And now to looke hom●wa●ds to our Britaine : in this Age we find our au●cestors , besides their common enemies the Scots , Picts , and Saxons , troubled with another more secret , but as dangerous , to wi● , the Pelagian heresie , wherewith Pelagius ( a Romane Monke , borne in Little Britaine ) with his Disciple Celestius , beganne to infect these Northerne parts . But after they , and their heresies were condemned in the Councels of Carthage and Mela , Pope Celestine sent Palladius into Scotland , as also our neighbours the French bishops ( at the request of the Catholique English ) s●nt y Germanus bishop of A●xerre , and Lupus bishop of Troys in Champeigne , into England , to beat downe Pelagianisme , which they happily suppressed . Now also there was a Provinciall Councel z held in Britaine , for the reforming of Religion , and repairing of the ruin'd Churches , which the Pagan marriage of Vortiger had decayed , to the great gri●fe of the people . A plaine token that their zeale continued ev●n unto those day●s : for so it was , whiles Vortiger a British Prince marryed with the fayre but Infidel Rowena , Hengists daughter , this Saxon match had almost undone both Church and State , whilest ( as a Bede complaines ) Priest's were slaine standing at the Altar , and bishops with th●ir flocks we●e murdered ; till at length , they assembled a Councel to repayre those decayes which this marriage had made . Now to close up this Age , the Reader may observe that we have surveyed the first foure Generall Councels , which Gregorie the Great b pro●essed that he ●mbraced as the foure Gospels : and indeed they were called ag●inst those foure Arch-heretickes that pestered the C●urch : the first was h●ld at Nice , against Arrius a Pri●st of Al●xandria , who held that Christ was neither God , nor eternall , but an excellent creature , created before all creatures . The second at Constantinople , against Macedonius , who held , that Christ was not of the same essence ; not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , consubstantiall , and of the same substance , with the Father , but onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like to him ; and that the Holy Ghost was not God , but Gods Minister , and a creature not eternall . The third at Eph●su● against Nestorius , who held , that Christ had two severall persons , but not two wills ; c and that the Virgin Mary was not to be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the mother of God , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Mother of Christ. The fourth at Chalcedon , where Dioscorus , and Eutyches were condemned . This Eutyches ( confuting Nestorius ) fell into other heresies , and confounded the two natures of Christ , making him ( after his union ) to have but the divine nature onely . Besides , the Reader may farther observe , that upon the survey of these first foure Generall Councells ( so much esteemed by S. Gregory ) it is found , that they confined the bishop of Rome to his bounds , with other Patriarkes ; and they equalled other Patriarchall Seas to the Romane : so that hereby is discovered the vanity of Campian's flourish , saying , d Generall Councells are all ours , the first , and the last , and the middle . For we imbrace such Generall Councells as were held in those golden Ages , within the first sixe hund●ed yeares , or thereabouts . The middle ranke , beginning at the second Nicene , unto the Councell of Florence , held in the Ages of the mingled and confused Church , they are neither wholly theirs , nor ours . The two last , the one at Lateran , the other at Tr●nt , these ( being held by the drosse of the Church ) are theirs . AN APPENDIX to the fi●th CENTVRIE . Of the Fathers Authoritie . PAPIST . YOu have produced the Fathers for these five or sixe hundred yeares , as if they had beene of your Faith ; whereas you dissent from th●m , a and refuse their tryall : but wee honour them , and appeale to the joynt co●sent of An●iquity . PROTESTANT . Where wee se●me to vary from them , it is eith●r in things humane , arbitrarie and indifferent , or in matters not fully discussed by the ancient , or in poynts which were not delivered by joynt consent of the ancient , or in things which are reproved by plaine demonstration of holy Scripture , and wherein the Fathers permit liberty of dissenting , and the Papists thems●lves usually take it . Neither would Saint Austine b ( the fai●est flower of Antiquity ) have his Reader follow him farther than hee followeth the Truth , not denying but that as in his maners , so in his writings many things might justly be c taxed . Neither doe we refuse the triall of the Fathers , truely alleadged , and rightly understood , witnesse the challenge made by Bishop Iewell d , and seconded by Doctor Whitaker e , and Doctor Featly ; yea , Doctor Whitaker f ( as Scultetus observeth ) g was confident , That the Fathers , although in some matters they be variable , and partly theirs , partly ours , yet in the materiall poynts they be wholly ours , and theirs in matters of lesser moment , and some few Tenets . Likewise , that great light of Oxford Doctor Reinolds , in his Conference with Master Hart , solemnely protested , h that in his opinion not one of all the Fathers was a Papist ; for ( saith he ) The very being and essence of a Papist consists in the opinion of the Popes supremacie ; but the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers , as he there proveth against Hart : not one then of all the Fathers was a Papist . PA. May wee not ground our Faith upon the Fathers Testimonies ? PRO. Wee reverence the ancient Fathers , but still with reservation of the respect wee owe to that Ancient of dayes , Daniel 7.6 . their father and ours , who taught young Elihu , Iob. 32.6 . to reprove his Ancients , even holy Iob amongst them , Iob 33.12 . him alone doe we acknowledge for the father of our Faith , on whom wee may safely ground in things that are to bee believed . For every Article of Christian Faith must bee grounded on divine revelation i ; but all opinions of the Fathers are not divine revelations , neither doe the Fathers challenge to themselves infallibility of judgement . S●int Austine saith , k This reverence and honour have I learnt to give to those Bookes of Scripture onely , which are called Canonicall , that I most firmely believe none of their Authors could any whit erre in writing : But others I so reade , that with how great sanctity and learning soever they doe excell , I therefore thinke not any thing to be true , because they s● thought it ; but because they were able to perswade me , either by those Canonicall Authours , or by some prob●ble reason , that it did not swerve from truth . Neither doe our Adversaries yield inf●llibil●ty of judgement t● the Fathers ; Baronius saith , l The Church doth not alwayes , and in all things follow the Fathers interpretation of Scripture . Bellarmine saith m Their writings are no rules of Faith , neither have they authority to binde . Canus tells us , n That the ancient Fathers sometime erre , and against the ordinary course of nature bring forth a monster . And it may bee some of the well-gifted moderne Doctors may see as farre as some of the ancient . Friar Stella , though it bee farre from him to condemne the common exposition given by the ancient holy Doctors , Yet I know full well ( saith he o that Pygmeis being put upon Gyants shoulders , doe see farther than the Gyants themselves . Neither doe wee speake this , as if wee refused the tryall of Fathers , but partly to bring the matter to a shorter issue , and partly to give the word of God ( the foundation p on which wee build our faith ) it 's due ; for we doe usuall● produce the Fathers testimonies , thereby to shew our consent with the ancient Church . PA. Will you charge the Fathers with errour ? PRO. The Fathers being but men have erred through oversight and affection . Saint Cyprian , and a whole Councell with him ●rred in the point of Rebaptization , q whiles through too much hatred of Heretickes , they condemned the Baptisme of Heretickes as unlawfull , and would have them baptized anew . Origen , r through too much compassion of the wicked , thought that the Devills themselves should bee saved at length . Tertullian through spite of the Romane Cleargie , revolted to the Montanists , s and was taken up with their idle Prophecies and revelations . Divers of the Fathers were tainted with the errour of the Chiliasts , or Millenaries , t mistaken herein in that they thought that Christians af●er the Resurrection should raigne a thousand yeares with Christ upon the earth , and there should marry wives , beget children , eate , drinke , and live in corporall delights ; which errour , though flatly repugnant to the Scriptures , ( which say u that in the Resurrection , they neither marry , nor are given in marriag● , but are as the Angels in heaven ) they fell into ; part●y by conf●unding the first , and second Resurrection , Revel . 20.5 . and par●ly , by taking that carnally , which was mystically meant in the Revelations , Revel . 21.10 . and 22.2 . Besides , the Fathers in the exposition of Scripture , doe of●entimes differ each from other , as Sixtus Senensis hath observed in his Bibliothecâ . lib. 5. PA. Though particular Fathers doe erre in some things ; yet the body of them is ●ound ; now we are bound to b interpret the Scripture according to the joynt consent of the Fathers . PRO. You have forfeited your bond , for in the division of the ten cō●andements ( to conceale your Idolatry touching Image worship forbidden in the second ) you goe against the streame of antiquitie , the learned Iewes , the Fathers Greeke and Latine , for though Saint Austin , in respect of the mystery of the blessed Trinitie , placed three commandements in the first table , and seaven in the later , yet there be a dozen of the Ancients that divide them as we doe ; namely , the Hebrewes , as Philo c , and Iosespus shew d ; and amongst the Grecians , Gregorie Nazianzene , Origen f , Athanasius g , Chrysostome h , or whosoever was the Author of the worke unperfit upon Mathew ; amongst the Latines , S. Ambrose i , S Hierome k , and one more ancient then they both , to wit , l the Author of the questions of the old and new Testament , going under Saint Austins name . And for Historian● , Sulpitius Severus , in his sacred Historie m , and Zonaras in his Annals n , they be of the same mind ; where is now your submission to the joynt consent of the Fathers ? In like sort , you hold o that the blessed Virgin was free from all spot of Originall sinne● and yet the Scripture sayth , That in Adam all have sinned , Rom. 5.12 . and your owne man Melchior Canus produceth seventeene Fathers to the contrary : p Sancti omnes , all the holy Fathers , that have mentioned this matter , ( uno ore ) with one consent affirme , the blessed Virgin to have beene conceived in Originall sinne . And yet these be the men that crake of the unanimous consent of Fathers , that the Fathers are as sure to them , q as Gregory the thirteenth is a loving Father to his children of the Church . The truth is , whatsoever they say of the Fathers to dazel the peoples eyes withall they use them as Merchants doe their Counters , sometimes standing for pence , sometime for pounds , even as they be next and readiest at hand , to make up their accounts ; neither are they farther entertained , then they favour the keyes and authority of the Church , saith Duraeus r ; now by the Church he meanes the Roman Church . And Grets●r saith , s that if the Fathers teach otherwise than the Church , ( namely the Roman Church ) then they bee not Fathers , but step-fathers : not Doctours , but Seducers . Cornelius Mus the Bishop of Bitonto sayth , t That in points of Faith , he giveth more cre●it to the Pope , than to a thousand Austines , Hieromes , Gregories ; and yet these be the men that cry up the Fathe●s . Now if the Fathers make so much for them , or they of the Fathers ; how is it that they corrupt the writings of the true Fathers , and devise such sleights to elude their testimonies ? how is it that they are driven to fly to the bastard treatises of false Fathers going under the name of Abdias , Linus , Clemens , S. Denys , and the like Knights of the Poste , brought in to depose on their behalfe ; though others of their owne side have cashiered them as counterfeits ? u for instance sake ; amongst the Popes decretall Epistles , the first of Clemens written ( as is pretended ) to Iames the brother of the Lord , is vouched by Bellarmine , x for proofe of the Popes Supremacie ; as also by the Rhemists , y to prove that Peter promised Saint Clement , that after his departure he would not cease to pray for him and his flocke ; now this Clement is pretended to be the same that lived in the Ap●stles times , and is mentioned by Saint z Paul , but it is discovered for a coun●erfeit ; for in this Epistle it is said , that Peter prayed Clemens to write ( after his death ) this Epistle to Iames the brother of the Lord , to comfort him , and Clemens did so ; whereas Iames was dead long before Peter , a about an eight yeares at least , now what a sencelesse thing is this to write letters to a dead man , specially knowing him to be dead : and hereupon Cardinal Cusanus hath cast off this Epistle as counterfeit : In deed Turrian the Iesuit striveth to defend b this Epistle , but yet hee cannot shew by what carryer Clement did send the letters to Saint Iames. And yet must these bee vouched under the reverent names of Saints Abdias , Saint Linus , Saint Clement , Saint Denys ; beeing not much unlike ( as one in Budaeus compares c some grave pontifician Fathers ) to antiques in Churches , which bow and crouch under vaults and pillars , and seeme to beare up the Church , as sometime the Pope thought hee saw the Church of Saint Iohn Latterane totter , and ready to fall , had not Saint Dominick upheld it with his shoulder d , whereas these doe not beare up the Church , but are borne out by the Church , and are indeed but puppets . PA. Master Wadesworth saith , Hee found the Catholickes had farre greater and better armies of evident witnesses than the Protestants . PRO. Master Bedel answereth Master Wadesworth , e that had it pleased God to have opened his eyes , as hee did Elisha's servants , hee might have seene , that there were more on our side than against us . Besides ( as Master Bedel saith ) the Romane Doctors may bring in whole armies of witnesses on their side , when they change the question , and prove what no body denyes ; as when the question is , whether the Pope have a monarchy over all Christians , an uncontrollable jurisdiction , and infallibility of judgement , f Bellarmine alleadgeth a number of Fathers , Greek and Latine , to prove onely that Saint Peter had a primacie of honour and authority , which is farre short of that supremacie which the Popes now claime , and which is the question . So also to prove the verity of Christs body and blood in the Lords Supper , g Bellarmine spends the whole booke in citing the Fathers of severall Ages . To what purpose ? when the question is not of the truth of the presence , but of the manner , whether it bee to the teeth or belly ( which hee in a manner denyes ) or to the soule and faith of the receiver . So also h Bellarmine for the proofe of Purgatory alleadgeth a number of Fathers ( as Ambrose , Hilarie , Origen , Basil , Lactantius , Ierome ) but farre from the purpose of the question , and quite beside their meaning : for they spake of the fire at the end of the world ( as Sixtus Senensis saith i ) and Bellarmine cites them for the fire of Purgatory before the end . In like sort , for proofe of Saintly invocation , Bellarmine musters up thirty Fathers , of the Greeke and Latine Church * ; now here is an army of ancients able to fright some untrained souldiers ; but it is but like the army that troubled the Burgundians , * Who lying neere to Paris , and looking for the battaile , supposed great Thistles to have beene Launces held upright : or like those souldiers mentioned by Plutarch in the life of Agesilaus , who bombasted , and embossed out their coates with great quarters , to make them seeme bigge and terrible to the enemy ; but after they were overthrowne , and slaine in the field , Agesilaus caused them to be stript , and bid his souldiers behold their slender and weerish bodies , of which they stood so much in feare , whiles they looked so big upon their enemies : the like may be sayd of Bellarmine's forces , they keepe a great quarter , but when they come to joyne issue for it , they are soone defeated . For of the Fathers alleadged by Bellarmine , th●re be ( as is already showne in the fifth Age ) seven of the thirty , which bee no Fathers , but post-nati , punies to primitive Antiquity . Eight of them bee justly suspected not to bee men of that credite , as that their depositions may bee taken . Two or three of them are wrong cited by a writ of errour , being either ignorantly , or wilfully mis-translated . Seven others of them speake like Poets , Oratours , Panegyrists , not dogmatically , but figuratively , with rhetoricall compellations , expressing their votes , and desires . The other sixe that remaine , they speake of Intercession in generall , not of Invocation in pa●ticular , of some few p●oples private practice , but not of the Chu●ches Office , Agend , or Doctrine generally taught , practised , and established . Besides ( as Master Moulin saith ) k among so many Authours as might fill a house , it is an easie matter to finde somewhat to wrest to a mans owne advantage , and never to bee perceived , because few men have these bookes , and of them that have them , few doe reade them , and of those that reade them , fewest of all doe understand them . But that wee may the better conceive the meaning of the testimonies and allegations of the Fathers , let us observe such cautions as the learned l have set downe for our helpe herein . The Fathers writings bee either Dogmaticall , Polemicall , or Popular . 1 2 In their Dogmaticall , and Doctrinall , wherein they set downe positive Divinity , they are usually very circumspect : in their Polemickes , and Agonistickes , earnest and resolute : in their Homilies , and popular discourse , free and plaine . 3 In their con●roversall writings , it fall's out sometimes , that through heat of disputation , whiles they oppose one errour , they sl●p in●o the opposite ; like one that labouring to make a crooked thing straight , bends it the quite contrary way : thus Hierome wh●les he affronts such a● impugn'd virginity , himselfe quarrels at lawfull Matrimony ; otherwise the Fathers in their Polemiques , whiles they keepe themselves close to the question in hand , their tenets are ever most sound , and direct . In their Homilies , 4 and exhortations to the people , they st●ive to move affections , so that they runne forth into figu●es of Rhetorick , and keepe not themselves close to points of doctrine . Of this kind of speech , Sixtus Senensis gives a good Rule , to wit , n that Their sayings are not to be urged in the rigour , because that Orator like they speake Hyperbolically and in excesse ; and he gives instance in Chysostome , as well he might ; for in the point of the Sacrament , he used such Rhetoricall straines , as hath beene noted in the fifth Centurie : and Hierome saith of himselfe , o I have played the Oratour , in manner of a declamation , to wit , by way of amplification , and exaggeration . Saint Hierome observes , p That before that Southerne Devill Arius arose at Alexandria , 5 the ancients spake certaine things in simplicitie , and not so warily : Saint Austine makes the like observation touching Pelagius ; how that the Fathers , ante mota certamina Pelagiana , extended the power of Free-will above measure , having then no cause to feare , there being no Pelagius then risen up in the world , an enemie of grace , and advancer of nature . Vntill the Pelagians beganne to wrangle , the Fathers ( saith Saint Austine , q and he gives instance in Saint Chrysostome ) tooke lesse h●ed to their speeches , to wit , in the poynt of Originall sinne , and free-will , but after that the Pelagian heresie arose , it made us , saith the same Austine , r Multò vigilantiores , diligentioresque , much more diligent , and vigilant in scanning of this point . In like sort , the Doctors that lived in the middle ages , what time Popery was not yet growne to his height , they spoke not so warily in the poynt of justification and grace , yet they left not the truth of God without a witnesse , 1 Tim. 6.12 . We must not take up such customes as were sometim●s used , in the Church , and make presidents of them , as if they had beene warranted by the Church , and the Fa●hers then living ; for the Fathers , being taken up wi●h weightier matters , winked at other faults , and were driven to beare with what they could not redresse . Saint Austine complaineth of the superstition of certaine Christians , that in Church yards did kneele before the Tombes of the Martyrs , and before the painted Histories of their sufferings . I know many ( saith he ) who worship Sepulchers and Pictures , I know many who drinke most excessively over the dead . The good Bishops saw these malladies in their flocks , and desired to reforme them , but they feared lest the rude people should hinder their r●formation , so that they were constrained to tollerate these and the like abuses ; insomuch that the same Austine speaking of them saith , t Approbare non possum , I can no way allow them , and yet liberius improbare non audeo , I dare not freely reprove them : and why ? lest thereby I either offend some good men , or provoke some turbulent spirits . And the same Father speaking of such as dranke , drunke over the Sepulchers of the dead , withall he addeth : u It is one thing that we teach , another that we tollerate ; it is one thing that which we are commanded to teach , another thing we are commanded to correct , and which we are constrained to beare withall , untill that it be amended . Neither indeed is it to be marvailed , if the learned among them , and such as were lately come from the Philosophers Schooles into Christian Colledges , and a people newly crept out of Paganisme ; I say it is not to be marvailed , if they retained something of their form●r Tenets and customes ; but these are no presidents for us who have now better learned Christ Iesus . 7 For farther caution , wee may make use of that rule which Bellarmine layeth downe ; and it is this : Wee must ( saith x hee ) conferre the Fathers one with another , and the same Father oft times in diverse Treatises with himselfe ; and by those things that are clearely set downe in one place , or one Fath●r , expound those things that seeme more obscure and doubtfull in another . Now wee accept of this rule , and thereby defeat diverse of our Adversaries allegations ; for example : Those words of Saint Ambrose y are much pressed , Benedictione natura mutatur , By benediction or consecration the nature of the elements in the Lords supper is changed ; and yet Saint Cyrill z saith as much of Baptisme ; namely , That the Waters are changed into a divine nature . They will not hence inferre a Transubstantiation in Baptisme ; why will they then from the like words in Saint Ambrose inferre a Transubstantiation in the Lords Supper ? Those wordes of Gregory Nyssen a are much pressed , namely ; Panem in corpus Christi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; Bread to bee changed into Christs Body . Now let Nyssen expound Nyssen , who in the words immediately going before saith , Corpus Christi ad divinam dignitatem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that Christ's body is changed or turned into a divine excellencie ; and yet this is done without any Transubstansiation at all . In like sort , that of Theophylact is much urged , b who saith of the Bread , That it is trans-elementated into the body of Christ , hee useth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Now Theophylact may expound Theophylact , who in the very same place saith , c Nos in Christum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that wee also are trans-elementated into Christ ; that a Christian is in a manner trans-elementated into Christ : Now they will not say , that wee are transubstantiated into Christ ; therefore neither doth Theophylact by the word Trans-elementation used of the Bread and Wine , understand any substantiall , but onely a Sacramentall change . The like is showne in the testimonies objected out of Hilarie in the fourth age , and Cyrill of Alexandria in the fifth , answered by themselves . 8 Wee are to make a dfference of the Fathers age , and w●itings , as also of their gifts ; Saint Austin wrote more soundly than Origen , though Origen were his Ancient ; for Origen turned almost all into Allegories ; yet as with Wines , so in Writings , usually the elder the better , and the Water neere the Spring-head runnes cleare and sweet ; so it was with the Fathers that wrote during the first five hundred yeares next after Christ : others , that wrote after the first sixe hundred yeares , such as Damascen , Anselme , and the like , they were post-nati to primitive antiquitie , and out of the verge of the Churches purity , as also some of them partiall , for so was Damascen a party in that Image quarrell in the Easterne Church ; and therefore in that case his testimonie is to be barred . Besides , for the answering of allegations out of the Fathers , wee must sever the bastard treatises , from the true and undoubted writings of the Fathers : for example , Dionysius Hierarchy is a counterfeit ; Clements constitutions are suspected , and Cyprian de Coena domini , is not d Cyprians ; as is already shewne in the third Centurie . Object . If these be counterfeits , how is it that your selves produce divers testimonies out of them ; as also out of the Commentaries of Saint Hierome , and Saint Ambrose , upon Saint Pauls , Epistles , which yet your selves doe not hold them to be Saint Hieromes and Saint Ambroses ? Answer . It is not to bee marvelled , if some of our learned Protestants ( admitting the bookes were written by them whose names they doe beare ) doe thence produce testimonies against you : for it is a rule in Law , f Testem quem quis inducit pro se , tenetur recipere contre se , you have produced them for your owne benefit , and the●efore in reason you cannot disallow of them now , though it be to your great hinderance , you first produced these witnesses , and now that they are in the face of the Court , you must give us leave to examine them upon crosse Interrogatories . To close up this point ; the Fathers are more to bee credited , when they conclude a thing de fide , dogmatic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 didactic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doctrinally , positively , purposely , by way of setting forth a matter of faith ; than when they write Agonistic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , g that is to say by way of contention and disputation , or obiter , touching a point onely upon the by , and as it may serve and suite with the point they have in hand , without farther respect thereunto . They are more to be credited when they speake Categoric 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , assertivè , with asseveration ; than speaking onely Historic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and ex opinione aliorum , relating onely the opinion of others , or what was done , and not delivering their owne judgement ; they are more to bee esteemed wh●n they speake as Divines in a professed discourse , than when they speake as Orators , Poets , Panegyrifts , and in a popular h discourse . In a word , wee must observe , what they write out of their private opinion , and what they deliver as the judgement of the Church : when any of them goe alone , it is not so safe following them ; but where wee have their unanimous and joynt consent in any materiall point , wee may more securely rely upon them ; and this was one of King Iames his directions for Students in Divinity i : and I find the same rule in Vincentius Lirinensis ; to wit , k That wee may rely upon that , not which one or two of the Fathers , but either all ( or most of them ) have taught , and that manifestly , frequently and constantly . PA. Although in some things the Fathers make for you , yet in the point of Merit , prayer for the dead , and prayer to Saints they are against you ; l they used the word Merit , and held as wee doe . PRO. The Ancients used the word Merit ( and so also they used the termes , Indulgences , Satisfaction , Sacrifice , a●d Penance ) but quite in another sense then the later Romanists doe : the Fathers who use it , tooke up the word as they found it in ordinary use and custome with men in those times , not for to deserve , which in our language implyeth Merit of condignity , but to incurre , to attaine , impetrate , obtaine and procure , without any relation at all to the dignity , either of the person or the worke ; thus Saint Bernard concerning children promoted to the Prelacie , saith ; m They were more glad they had escaped the rod , than that they had merited ( that is , obtayned ) the pr●ferment . Saint Augustine saith , n that hee and his fellowes for their good doings , at the hands of the D●natists , In steed of thankes merited ( that is , incurred ) the flames of hatred : on the other side the same Fathe● affirmeth , o That Saint Paul for his persecutions and blasphemies merited ( that is , found grace ) to bee named a vessell of election . Saint Gregory hath a straine concerning the sinne of Adam , which is sung in the Church of Rome , at the blessing of the Taper ; p O happy sinne that merited ( that is , Found the favour ) to have such and so great a Redeemer . In like sort by merits they did ordinarily signifie workes , as appeares by that of Saint Bernard , saying , q The merits of men are not such , that for them eternall life should bee due of right ; for all merits are Gods gifts . Neither did the ancient Church hold merit of Condignitie , but resolved according to that of Leo ; r The measure of celestiall gifts depends not upon the qualitie of works ; they were not of the Rhemists opinion , s That good works are meritorious , and the very cause of salvation ; so farre that God should be unjust , if he rendred not heaven for the same . They were not so farre Iesuited as with Vasquez t to hold , that u The good works of just persons are of themselves , without any covenant and acceptation , worthy of the reward of eternall life , and have an equall value of condignitie to the obtaining of eternall glorie . PA. You cannot denie , but that prayer for the dead is ancient . PRO. The manner now used is not ancient , for they that of old prayed for the dead , had not any reference to Purgatorie , as Popish prayers are now adayes made . It is true indeed , that anciently they used Commemorations of the defunct ; neither mislike wee their manner of naming the deceased at the holy table ; in this sort , they used a Commemoration x of the Patriarks , Prophets , Apostles , Evangelists , Martyrs , and Confessours , yea of Mary the mother of our Lord , to whom it cannot be conceived , that by prayer they did wish their deliverance out of Purgatorie , sith no man ever thought t●em to be there ; but if they wished any thing , it was the deliverance from the power of death , which as yet tyrannized over one part of them ; the hastning of their resur●ection , as also a joyful publike acquitall of them in that great day wherein they shall stand to bee judged before the judge of the quicke and dead , that so having fully escaped from all the consequences of sin ( the last enemie being then destroyed y and death swallowed up in victorie ) they might obtaine a perfect consummation and blisse , both in body and soule , according to the forme of our Churches z Liturgie . In the Commemoration of the faithfull departed , retained as yet in the Romane missall , there is used this Orizon : a O Lord grant unto them eternall rest , and let everlasting light shine unto them : and againe , b This oblation , which we humbly offer unto thee for the Commemoration of the soules that sleepe in peace , we beseech thee O Lord , receive graciouslie ; and it is usuall in the Ambrosian , and Gregorian Office , and in the Romane missall , to put in their Memento , the names of such as sleepe in the sleepe of Peace , & omnium pausantium , and to entreate for the spirits of those that are at rest : c Remember , O Lord , thy servants , and hand maides , which have gone before us with the Ensigne of Faith , and sleepe in the sleepe of Peace ; now by Pausantium , d Pamelius understands , such as sleepe and rest in the Lord. Where we may observe , that the soules unto which Everlasting blisse was wished for , were yet acknowledged to rest in Peace , and consequently not to be disquieted with any Purgatorie torment . So that the thing which the Church anciently aymed at in her supplications for the dead , was not to ease or release the soules out of Purgatorie , but that the whole man ( not the soule separated onely ) might find mercie of the Lord in that day , as sometime Saint Paul prayed for Onesiphorus , e even whiles Onesiphorus was yet alive . Besides , they desired a joyfull Resurrection , as appeares by severall passages , and Liturgies ; by the Aegyptian Liturgie attributed to Cyril Bishop of Alexandria , where we find this Orizon : f Raise up their bodies in the day which thou hast appointed , according to thy promises which are true and cannot lye . And that of Saint Ambrose , for Gratian and Valentinian the Emperours : g I doe beseech thee most high God , that thou wouldst raise up againe those deere young men with a speedie resurrection ; that thou mayst recompence this untimely course of this present life with a timely resurrection . As also in Grimoldus his Sacramentarie ; h Almighty and everlasting God , vouchsafe to place the body and the soule , and the spirit of thy servant N. in the bosomes of Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob ; that when the day of thine acknowledgement shall come , thou mayst command them to be raised up among thy Saints and thine Elect. The like is found in the Agend of the dead , i already mentioned . PA. Invocation of Saints was anciently used . PRO. I answer , that though in respect of later times , Prayer to Saints and some other of our adversaries Tenets may seeme ancient , and gray-headed ; yet in respect of the first three or foure hundred yeares next after Christ , they are not of that ancient standing : now the true triall of antiquitie is to be tak●n from the first and purest ag●s ; for as Tertullian telleth us , k That is most true , which is most ancient , that most ancient which was from the beginning , that from the beginning which frō the Apostles , so that which at fi●st was delivered to the Saints , is truest ; and the good seed was first sowne , and after that came the tares . Besides , what though some poynts in Poperie were of a thousand yeare● standing ? it is not time that can make a lye to be truth ; antiquitie without truth is but antiquitas erroris , an ancient errour ; and there is no p●aescrip●ion of time can hold plea against God and his truth . Neither yet can you prescribe for divers Tenet●● Scotus that was termed the Subtile Doctor , telleth us , l that before the Councel of Lateran ( which was not till the yeare 1215 ) Transubstantiation was not believed as a poynt of Faith. This did Bellarmine observe as a thing remarkable in Scotus , although he doth not approve the same . Cassander saith , m It is sufficiently manifest , that the Vniversall Church of Christ untill this day , and the Westerne or Romane Church , for more then a thousand yeares aft●r Christ , did exhibit the Sacrament in both kinds to all the members of Christs Church , at least in publike , as it is most evident by innumerable testimonies , both of Greeke and Latine Fathers . So that the barring of the Lay-people of the Cup , came not into the Church by any publike decree , till the Councel of Constance , which was held in the yeare 1414 , some two hundred yeares agoe . Fisher Bishop of Rochester saith , n that of Purgatorie there is very little or no mention amongst the ancient ; and that the Grecians doe not believe it to this day . In like sort , their Latine service , which Pope Vitalian brought in , o is not of Primitive antiquitie , for it was not generally put upon the Church until the yeare 666. which is the number of the name of the beast mentioned in the Apocalypse , Revel . 13.18 . and found out by Irenaeus p to arise out of the numerall letters of the word Lateinos ; now this name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wel suites with the Pope whose Faith and Church is the Romish or Latine Church , and his publike Service in Latine , and his translation of Scripture in Latine . Now touching prayer to Saints ; It is true , that such as had lapsed , and fallen in time of persecution , were wont to implore the prayers of Ma●tyrs and Confessours imprisoned for the q Gospel ; that by their interceding for th●m , they might procure some ease or relaxation of such canonicall censures as were enjoyned them by the Church , & Cyprian was of opinion , that the Saints aft●r death , remembred thei● old friends here , as having tak●n fresh and particular notice of their severall states , votes , and necessities ; and hence grew that compact betwixt Cyprian and Cornelius , that whether of them went to heaven before the other , he should pray for his surviving r friend . Now this soliciting of Martyrs before their deaths , brought in the next Age a custome to call upon them after their deaths : yet so as they did not directly invote them . For so it was ; for the better preservation of the memory of Saints and Martyrs , they had their Commemoration dayes , and were wont to meet at the Tombes and Monuments of Martyrs , where they kept their anniversary , and yearely solemnities , and made speeches in their praise and commendations ; and in these their orations they spoke to the deceased , as if they had beene living , and present there , but these were onely straines of rhetoricke , Figures , and Apostrophee's , rather Declamationes rhetorum , flowers of rhetoricke , than Definitiones Theologorum , decisions of Divines . In this kind Gregorie Nazianzene saith , s Heare , O thou soule of great Con●●antius , ( if thou hast any understanding of these things ) and as many soules of the Kings before him as loved Christ. The like he hath in his funerall oration which he made upon his Sister Gorgonia , where he speakes thus unto her : t If thou hast any care of the things done by us , and holy soules receive this honour from God , that they have any feeling of such things as these ; receive this oration of ours , in stead of many , and before many funerall obsequies . He speakes doubtfully and faintly , If thou hast any sense or apprehension hereof ; and , if you be affected with these things ; it seemeth hee thought that the defunct had not ordinarily notice of things done on earth , neither will it serve to say as Bellarmine doth , u that Si , is not dubitantis , but affirmantis , not a terme of doubting , but of asseveration , as that of Saint Paul , If thou count me therefore a partner , receive him as my selfe . For there is no man , but if he reade these places unpartially , Heare , if there be any sense , and , Heare , if God grant it as a priviledge to soules deceased to have sense of these things , but he will conceive that Si is not put for , For ; or quoniam , or as a note of affirming , but as a note of doubt , at least in the parties that spake it . Hitherto the Saints were rather Vocati , called unto , as comprecants , to joyne their prayers with the living , than Invocati , Directly called upon , or prayed unto ; yet in processe of time the prayers made to God to heare the Intercessions of the Saints , were changed into prayers , to the Saints , to heare our intercessions themselves : For wee deny not but that among the ancient writers , there are some places found which speake of the Intercession of the Saints ; there are also wishes found that were made by living men , that the Saints would pray for them ; but this is not the difference betwixt us , whether the Saints pray for us , but whether wee must pray unto , and call upon them ? for wee grant , that the Saints in heaven doe pray for Saints on earth in generall , x according to the nature of communion of Saints ; but their intercession for us in generall , will not inferre our invocation of them in particular . There are also in ancient Writers p●rticular examples to bee found of some , that ou● of their owne private devotion have called upon Saints ; but thi● cannot raise up a tenet in Religion to bind the Church , either for doctrine or practice ; for what one or two shall doe , carried away with their owne devout affection , having zeale ( hap'ly ) not according to knowledge , is not straight way a Ru●e of the Church , nor one of the Churches Agends . The thing wee stand upon is this ; that there were not any Collects , nor set formes , nor any di●ect Invocation of Saints put into the Common-service , and publicke Liturgie of the Westerne Church untill the dayes of Gregory the Great , or there abouts , sixe hundred yeares after Christ ; so that their Saint-invocation is not so ancient as they would beare the world in hand . In a word , there is much difference betweene the ancients , and moderne Romists herein ; for in the compellations which the ancients used , they pleaded onely Christs merits , making the Saints ( high in Gods favour ) competitioners to the throne of grace with the Saints living on earth : but not content herewith , the Schooles afterwards held meritorious Invocation of Saints , wherein the Saints owne merits were brought in , and pleaded . Wee pray unto the Saints ( saith the Master of the Sentences ) y That they may intercede for us , that is to say , That their merits may helpe us ; and Biel speakes to the same effect . z THE SIXTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 500. to 600. PAPIST . WWhat say you of this sixth age ? PROTESTANT . Quod dies ●egat , dies dabit ; what one age affords not , another doth : and dies dedit , I trust wee have got the day in the two last , justly stiled the learned Ages . The Reader is not now ( in the close of the first 600 yeares ) to expect so full and frequent Testimonies as formerly : such as wee find wee produce , * For God hath not left himselfe without witnesse . Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie and Canon . Iustus Orgelitanus compares the Scriptures to Davids Tower wherein hang a thousand shields , and all the targets of the strong men ; a it being furnished with all sorts of armour , to encounter Satan , and his Instruments withall . Saint Bede records of the successors of Colum-kille the great Saint of Ireland , That they b observed only those workes of pietie and chastitie , which they could learne in the propheticall , evangelicall , and apostolicall writings ; and these they esteemed as their chiefe riches , according to that of c Columbanus : Sint tibi divitiae divinae dogmata legis . Iunilius an African Bishop , treating of the Canonica●l bookes , and having said that some account Tobie with others Canonicall , he puts the question , and then resolves it : Why are not these bookes inserted amongst the Canonicall Scriptures , and he names amongst other Tobie , Esdra , Iudith , and the second of the Maccabees ? Because ( saith he ) d The Iewes did make a difference of them , as Saint Hierome , and others witnesse . Of Communion under both kinds , and number of Sacraments . Hinemar in the life of Rhemigius Archbishop of Rhemes ( who converted King Clovis of France to the Christian faith ) e reports that the Archbishop gave a Chalice for the peoples use , with this Motto ; Hauriat hinc populus vitam de sanguine sacro Injecto , aeternus quem fudit vulnere Christus . Rhemigius domino reddit sua vota sacerdos . Rhemigius Priest , that gave this cup , Prayeth that in it the people sup ; And still draw life from flowing blood Out of Christs side , as of a flood . Hee saith not , Hauriat hinc Clerus , but populus ; not , Let the Priest , but let the people drinke of this ministeriall Cup , as Cassander cals it . The Divines of this Age ( as others of former times ) f acknowledged onely two Sacraments , Baptisme , and the Lords Supper . Of the Eucharist . Fulgentius speaking of the Eucharist , saith ; g In this sacrifice there is a thankesgiving and remembrance of the flesh which hee offered , and the blood which Christ shed for us ; and h this sacrifice of bread and wine was offered throughout the whole Catholike Church . Here Fulgentius mentions a Sacrifice not proper and propitiatorie for the quick and dead , but Eucharisticall , and Commemorative , of prayse and thankesgiving , a lively memoriall , and representation of the Sacrifice offered on the Crosse. The words alleadged are found amongst S. Austines workes ; but Bellarmine i saith ; Many father them on Fulgentius , and that Bertram citeth these words under his name , and so indeed I find it : howsoever , were it Austin , k or Fulgentius , the Master , or the Scholler ; so they taught , and so wee learned , both from them and others , namely l Primasius , m Ambrose , and n Chrysostome , who by way of correction say , Wee offer the same sacrifice , or rather the remembrance thereof . Besides , the same Fulgentius saith , o They receive the onely Sonne of God. Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Fulgentius saith , p That as in the first Precept , the worship of one God is manifestly commanded ; so the faithfull are utterly forbidden to yeeld the service of Adoration to any creature . Dracontius in his booke of the Creation , saith ; q It is Gods pleasure , Esse nihil prorsus se praeter ubiquè rogandum . That nothing beside himselfe should every where be prayed unto . Of Faith and Merit . Primasius saith , that s We are freely justified by faith only , and not by workes . Fulgentius saith , t From this our originall corruption , not any power of nature , or letter of the Law , but faith onely in Iesus Christ doth free us . Now this saving faith , though it never goe alone , yet may there be some gift of God , which it alone is able to reach unto , u as Columbanus also implyeth in that verse : Sola fides fidei don● ditabitur almo . Concerning Merit , Fulgentius saith ; x Our glorificacation is not unjustly called grace , not onely because God doth bestow his owne gifts upon his owne gifts ; but also because the grace of Gods reward doth so much there abound , as that it exceedeth incomparably and unspeakably all the merit of the will , and worke of man , though good , and given from God : and y That this is wholesome doctrine , to challenge nothing to our selves in any good we doe . And Iustus Orgelitanus saith , z Wee must thanke the Stocke Christ Iesus , if any good fruit grow on our branches . Cassiodore saith , That a Gods vocation goes before our merit , not ●inding us worthy , but accepting us for such . The Councell of Orange hath notably decreed against the Semi-pelagians . There are many good things ( saith the Councell ) b done in man , which man doth not ; but man doth no good things , which God doth not make man to doe . c This also doe wee wholsomely professe and believe , that in every good worke wee doe not begin , and are holpen afterwards by the mercy of God ; but hee first of all , no good merits of ours going before , inspireth into us both faith and the love of him : which place Binnius hath d corrupted , reading for nullis , multis ; many good workes going before : surely this was none of his good workes to corrupt the Councell . Now also was held the fif●h Generall Councell at Constantinople , Anno 553. e Called by the Emperour Iustinian , and not by the Pope . This Councell confirmed the decrees of the former ; and withall ( according to the former Canons ) decreed , f That the See of Constantinople should have equal dignity with the See of old Rome . Vnto these forraine testimonies , we may joyne some of our owne , namely , the Britaines about the yeare five hundred ninetie sixe , what time as Gregory the Great sent Austin the Monke into England . PAP . It was our Gregory , and his Austin that first converted your Iland . PRO. It was converted long before Austins comming , even in the first Age of the Church , as is already showne . Besides , at his comming , there were in Britaine g seven Bishops , with other learned men , professing and teaching the Christian faith ; and above two thousand Monks in the Monastery of Bangor , h All living with the labour of their hands . Yea , Geffrey of Monmouth speaking of Cornwaile , and the Westerne parts , saith ; i In a part of the Britaines , Christianity yet flourished , the which being received in the dayes of Eleutherius ( in the yeare 179. ) Never fayled amongst them ; so that Austin was not our first Converter . PA. You say the Britaine 's held the Christian faith ; how then differed they from our Austin ? PRO. They differed both in Ceremonies , and Substantiall doctrine ; namely , in not acknowledging the Popes Supremacie , which is now a grand Article of the Romane Faith : for whereas Austine came with a kind of Legantine power from the Pope , and for the execution of this Commission ( not unknowne to the Ilanders ) used both prayers and k threats , to move them to conformity with the Romane Church , at least for their manner of baptizing , and keeping of Easter ; but they told him plainely , that l They would not yeeld to any of his motions , nor acknowledge him for their Arch bishop : yea , m Dinooch the Abbot of Bangor , a learned man , made it appear● by divers arguments , when Austine required the Bishops to be subject unto him , that they ought him no subjection ; yea , they farther added , n That they had an Arch-bishop of their owne , him they ought and would obey , but they would not be subject to any forraigne Bishop . For such an one ( belike ) they held the Pope to be . Neither can it bee truly alleadged that they refused his jurisdiction , not his religion ; for Bede saith , o That they withstood him in all that ever he sayd : now surely hee sayd somewhat else besides his Arch-bishopricke , and his Pall ; or else he had beene a very ambitious man. Besides , in the dayes of Laurentius , Austines successour , Bishop Daganus denied all Communion , p And refused to eate bread in the same Inne , wherein the Romish Prelates lodged ; belike then they differed in matters of weight . PA. Wherein stood the difference , what doe you hence inferre , whether were you not beholden to our Austine ? PRO. The Romans kept their Easter , in memorie of Christs Resurrection , upon the first Sunday after the full Moone of March , the Britanes kept theirs in memory of Christs Passion , upon the fourteenth day of the Moone of March , on what day of the weeke soever it fell ; this they did after the example of the Easterne Churches in Asia , grounded on a tradition received from Saint Iohn ; whereby it seemeth , the British Church rather followed the custome of the East Church in Asia , planted by Saint Iohn , and his disciples , than the Romane ; which yet had they been of the Romish jurisdiction , they would ( in all likelyhood ) have followed ; now since they followed the Easterne custome , it is probable , that our first conversion to Christianitie , came from the Converted Iewes , or Grecians , and not from the Romanes ; and that Britaine was not under their jurisdiction . But whencesoever our Conversion were , wee blesse God for it . Now concerning Austine , and the Britaines ; we acknowledge to Gods glory , that howsoever the superfluitie of Ceremonies which Austine brought in , might well have been spared ; yet Austine , and his Assistants , Iustus , Iohn , and Melitus , converted many to the Faith. Neither can we excuse the Britaines , for q refusing to joyne with Austine in the conversion of the Pagan Saxons ; yet withall we must needs say , they had just reason to refuse to put their necks under his yoke : and surely if Austine had not had a proud spirit , he would onely have requested their helpe for the worke of the Lord , and not have sought dominion over them : which makes it very probable , that his obtruding the Popes jurisdiction over the Britaines , occasioned that lamentable slaughter of the Britaines . For when as Austine solicited the Britaines to obey the See of Rome , r and they denied it ; then did Ethelbert a Saxon Prince , lately converted by Austine , stirre up Edelfred the Wild , ( the Pagan King of Northumberland ) against the Britaines ; whereupon the Infidel Saxon Souldiers , made a most lamentable slaughter of the Britaines , assembled at Westchester ; and that not onely on the Souldiers prepared to fight , but on the Monks of Bangor assembled for prayer ; of whom they slew twelue hundred , together with Dinooch their Abbot ; all which ( as Ieffery Monmouth saith ) s being that day honoured with Martyrdome , obtained a seat in the Kingdome of Heaven . And this was the wofull issue of their stickling for jurisdiction over other Churches . PA. Baronius t calleth the Britaines Schismaticks , for not yeelding to the Pope . PRO. The Britaine Church had anciently a u Patriarke or Primate of her owne like other Provinces ; to him the other Bishops of his Church were subject , and not to the Romane . PA. The Nic●n Councel condemned the Quartadecimans ( and in them your Britaines ) for Hereticks , x saith Parsons . PRO. To his testimonie , we oppose the Iudgement of a Frier minorite who expressely y calleth them Catholikes . Besides , had that famous Councell of Sardice , held our British Bishops for Hereticks , they had never admitted them to give sentence in that Councel , as they did : z for by name , Restitutus Bishop of London , a subscribed thereunto ; and was likewise p●esent at the Synod of Arles in France , as Parsons b reporteth out of Athanasius . Againe , those who kept Easter on the fourteenth day precisely , were of two sorts . Some as Polycrates , and other Bishops in Asia , kept it so , meerely in imitation of c Saint Iohn the Evangelist ; as an ancient , but yet an indifferent , and mutable rite or tradition ; and these were condemned for Hereticks , and such were our Britaines . Others kept the fourteenth day , even eo nomine , and by vertue of the Mosaicall law ; holding a necessity of observing that peremptory day , as appointed by Moses● now this was the meanes to bring Iudaisme , which quite abolisheth Christ , and evacuateth the whole Gospel ; like those who amongst the Galathians urged Circumcision , to whom d Saint Paul professeth , that Christ should profit them nothing . And this was it was condemned in the Quarta-decimans : but of this the Britaine 's were cleere . They should indeed have conformed themselves to the Councels decree ; yet because that decree was not a decree of Faith ( no farther then it condemned the Necessitie of observing the fourteenth day , and therein condemned the Quarta●decimans ) but a decree of Order , discipline , and uniformity in the Church ; when it was once knowne , and evident , that any particular Church condemned the necessitie of that fourteenth day ; the Church by a connivencie permitted , and did not censure the bare observing of that day . The same e Councel decreed , that on every Lords day , from Easter to Whits●ntide , none should pray kneeling , but standing ; wherein the Church ( notwithstanding the decree ) useth the like connivence , not strictly binding every particular Church to doe so ; so long as there is unitie , and agreement in the doctrines of Faith ; the Church useth not to bee rigorous with particular Churches , which are her children , for the varietie and difference in outward rites , though commanded by her selfe , as my learned kinsman f Doctor Crakanthorpe , hath well observed . PA. This odds about keeping Easter was but of small weight . PRO. It was so , if we consider our Christian g libertie in the observation of times ; y●t was it held a matter of that consequence , that Pope Victor h Excommunicated all the Churches of Asia , which differed from him in the observation thereof . PA. What conclude you from your Britaines Faith ? PRO. Vpon the Premises , it followeth ; that seeing the doctrine of the Popes Supremacie over all Churches , was no part of the Britaines Faith when Austine came ; therefore neither was it any part of their Faith in Eleutherius dayes , no nor in the Apostles time neither ; since as Mathew of Westminster saith , i The Britaines Faith never failed . Againe , seeing the Britaines Faith , ( k as Parsons truly affirmeth ) was then ; to wit , at Austines comming , the same which the Romanes , and all Catholike Churches embraced : it further followeth , that the Popes Supremacie , was no materiall part of the Romane Faith , or of any Catholikes , either in Pope Eleutherius time , or in the Apostles dayes ; for had it beene so , the Britaines ( who changed not their Faith , but kept still the substantiall grounds thereof ) would likewise have held the Popes Supremacie ; yea , doubtlesse , those Catholike Bishops of Britaine , had they but knowne and believed ( as now it is given out ) the Pope to be Iure divin● , by divine right , and Gods appointment the Monarch of the whole Church , they would have yeelded obedience to Austine , and in him to the Pope ; but they opposed it as being urged by those of the Romish faction ; so that it was not then , ( as now it is made ) one of the chiefe heads of the Romish Faith : for now a dayes , men are made to believe that out of the Communion of the Romane Church , nothing but hell can be looked for : and subjection to the Bishop of Rome , as to the visible Head of the Vniversall Church , l Is required as a matter necessary to salvation . But this was no part , nor Article of the ancient Britaines Creed , and therefore they withstood it ; and if it were no Article of Faith them , surely it is none now a dayes . To close up this point : hereby is overthrowne the maine Article of the Romane Creed . For , if ( as the Papists m say and sweare ) there be no salvation out of the Romane Communion , then is the case like to goe hard with the one thousand two hundred British Monks of Bangor , stiled Saints and Martyrs , that died out of the Roman Communion , and yet within the Communion of Saints . But this Grand Imposture of the [ now ] Romane Church , is notably discovered by the learned and zealous Bishop of Coventrie and Lichfield , n Doctor Morton , now Lord Bishop of Durham . My conclusion shall be this : out of the holy Catholike Church of the Creede , there is no salvation ; but out of the fellowship of the Romane Church there hath beene , and is salvation , as appeares in the case of these our British Martyrs , therefore the present Romane Church is not ( as it is pretended ) the Catholike Church of the old Creede , but a particular of the new Trent Creede . THE SEVENTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 600. to 700. PAPIST . PRoceede to name your men . PROTESTANT . I name Gregory the great , whom Bellarmine usually a placeth in this seventh Age , for that hee lived unto the yeare 605 , what time ( as Trithemius saith ) b he dyed : Now also lived his Scholler Isidore Bishop of Sivil in Spaine , usually c termed Isidore the younger . Now also by Bellarmine's account ( though others make him much ancienter ) lived Hesychius Bishop of Hierusalem , with other Worthies , as namely the Britaines of Wales , as also Saint Aidan , and Finan , now also was held the sixth Generall Councell . PA. I challenge Saint Gregory , hee is ours . PRO. Gregorie indeed lived in a troublesome time , whiles the Goths and Vandals overranne Italie , and Rome was besieged by the Lombards . There was then also great decay in knowledge , and scarcity of able men to furnish the Church withall ; and few in Italie ( as Baronius saith d ) that were skilled both in Greeke and Latine . Yea Gregory himselfe e pro●esseth that hee was ignorant of the Greeke tongue ; yet was he st●led the great , and yet not so great , as godly and modest . It is commonly said of him , That he was the last of the good Bishops of Rome , and the first of the bad ones ; f That he was the first Pope , and leader of the Pontifician companies , and the last Bishop of Rome . Hee was supe●stitious in diverse things , hee lived in a declining age , and as in time , so in some truths came short of his predecessours ; yet , he taught not as your Trent Papists doe , but joyned with us in diverse weighty poynts of Religion . g Of the Scriptures sufficiencie , and Canon . Gregory held the Scriptures sufficiencie , saying , h Whatsoever serveth for edification , is contayned in the volume of the Scriptures ; i wherein are all resolutions of doubts fully and plentifully to be found ; they being like a full Spring , that cannot be drawne drye . Hee approved the vulgar use of the Scriptures , k exhorting a Lay-man to study them ; because ( saith hee ) l they bee as it were Gods Letter or Epistle to his Creature , wherein he reveales his whole minde to him . And lest any complaine of the difficulty of the Scriptures , he compares them to a m River , wherein there are as well shallow Foords for Lambes to wade in , as depths for the Elephant to swim in . And Isidore saith , that n the Scripture is common to petty Schollers , and to Proficients . And whereas Heretickes use to alleadge Scripture for themselves ; Gregory saith , o they may bee confuted by Scripture it selfe , even as Goliath was slaine with his owne sword . Gregory held the bookes of Maccabees Apocryphall ; Wee doe not amisse ( saith p he ) if wee produce a testimony out of the booke of Maccabees , though not Canonicall , yet published for the i●struction of the Church . And Occham accordingly reports Gregories judgement , saying , q The booke of Iudith , Tobias , the Maccabees , Ecclesiasticus , and Wisedom , are not to bee received for the confirmation of any doctrine of Faith. Isidore saith , r In these Apocryphall although there be some truth to be found , yet by reason of the many errours therein , they are not of Canonicall auth●rity . Of Communion under both kindes ; and number of Sacraments . Saint Gregory in his Dialogues ( if they be his ) s tells us of some that were going to Sea ( some whereof happily were Lay-men ) carryed with them the consecrat●d body and bloud of the Lord in the Ship , and there received it . And againe , t His body is there rec●ived , his flesh is there divided for the peoples salvation ; his bloud is not now powred out upon the hands of Infidels , but into the mouth of the Faithfull . Hee speakes expressely of the Faithfull , and of the people . And in his Homily touching the Passeover he saith , u What is meant by the bloud of Christ , you have now learned , not by hearing of it , but by drinking of it ; which bloud is then put on both posts , when it is drawne in both by the mouth of the body , and of the heart . Herein Gregory resembles the partaking of Christ's bloud in the Eucharist , to the bloud of the Paschall Lambe in the twelfth of Exodus , striken upon both po●ts of the doore : thereby noting the mouth and the heart , each whereof after their manner receive Christ : for with the mouth and corporally wee receive the wine , which is the Sacrament of his bloud ; and with our heart , and by faith we receive the thing Sacramentall , the bloud it selfe . Besides , hee speakes expressely of drinking , and the termes hee useth , hauritur and perfunditur , That Christ's bloud is shed , and taken as a draught , demonstrate , that he speaks not of partaking Christ's bloud , as it is joyned to his body , and inclosed in his veines , but as severed from it ; as my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly hath x observed . Isidore sai●h , y The fourth prayer is brought in for the kisse of Peace , that all b●ing reconciled by charity , may joyne in the worthy participation of Christs body and bloud . Omnes , all ; the people as well as the Priests . Isidore saith , z These be th● Sacraments , to wit , Baptisme and Chrysme , and the body and bloud of Christ. Now with Baptisme he joynes Chrysme , because their manner was to annoint those who were baptized . Of the Eucharist . Isidore saith , a Bread because it strengtheneth the body , is therefore called Christs body ; and wine , because it worketh bloud in the flesh , it hath therefore relation to the bloud of Christ : but these two being sanctified by the Holy Ghost , are changed into a Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ. He saith , Christ called bread his body , to wit , Sacramentally , a signe , a Sacrament of his body , and not Substantially : he saith , Bread is changed into a Sacrament of Christs body , which notes a Sacramentall Conversion , and not Substantiall : he saith , Bread strengthens mans body , bread Substantially , and not Accidentallie , so that it is not the roundnesse , or figure of bread that strengthens mans body , nor the colour of wine that is turned into bloud . Hesychius saith , b We eate this food by receiving the memorie of his Passion : not of his Glory , but of his Passion : the same Author saith , c Our mysterie is both bread and fl●sh , to wit , bread in substance , and indeed ; and Christs body , not in substance , but in a mystery . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Gregorie allowed onely an d Historicall use of Images ; otherwise he speakes positively , that e The worshipping of Images , is by all meanes to bee avoided : and though hee misliked the breaking of them , yet he commended those that forbad the adoration of them : yea he commands the people to f Kneele and bow downe to the omnipotent Trinitie onely : and therefore not too , or before an Image . And Cassander saith , g that Gregorie therein declared the judgement of the Romane Church , to wit , that Images are kept not to be adored , and worshipped ; but that the ignorant by beholding those Pictures , might as by written records , be put in mind of what hath beene formerly done , and be thereupon stirred up to Pietie . Concerning Prayer , as wee finde in Gregorie very rarely any prayer to Saints ; so unto the Virgine Mary not any one . Which we may conceive he would not have omitted , if he had believed , as divers Papists maintaine : That she is a Savioresse , a Mediatresse : h That as Assuerus offered halfe of his kingdome to Queene Esther ; so Christ reserving the kingdome of Iustice to himselfe , hath granted the other moitie , the kingdome of mercie to his mother . PA. Was not Invocation of Saints used in the Church-service in Saint Gregories dayes . PRO. Be it so , that some such devotions were used in his time , yet in the ancient Missals , there is no such forme to be found . In them indeed the Saints names in their Anniversarie solemnities , and Holydayes , were remembred , and put into their Memento , but they were not praied unto , men praied only to God , that he would give them grace to follow their examples , and make them partakers of that happinesse which those blessed ones already enjoyed ; and at that time , when this alteration began , and that the Gregorian forme tooke place , the Invocation was not brought into the Liturgie , and publike prayers of the Church in Direct forme , but men prayed still unto God onely , though desiring him the rather to respect them , for that not onely their brethren on earth , but they also that are in heaven , cease not to pray for them : neither is there any other forme of prayer found in the missall , but in the Sequences and Litanies onely , i saith Learned Doctor Field . Gregorie indeeed k added some things to the Canon ; the Alle-lujah , the Kyrie Ele●son , Lord have mercie upon us : the Orizon , Di●sque nostros in pace disponas , Give peace in our times O Lord , together with other Collects . But I doe not find either in Cassander or Pamelius their Liturgies , that Gregorie brought in any direct forme of Prayer to Saints . Afterward● , l Nocherus the Abbot , who lived about the yea●e eight hundred and fifty , m composed the Sequences , and so when the ancient Missalls were abandoned , it is no marvaile if Invocation of Saints stept up in their place . Lastly , the forme and manner of Saintly Invocation used about the yeare 600 , in Saint Gregories dayes , differeth extreamely from that which was used by Papals in later times , as may appeare by these instances following . The Hymne of Thomas Becket runnes thus in the n Salisbury Primer : Tu per Thomae sanguinem , Quem pro te impendit ; Fac nos Christe scandere , Quò Thomas ascendit . By the bloud of Thomas , Which for thee he did spend ; Make us thither O Christ to climbe , Whither Thomas did ascend . To the blessed Virgin they o pray : Maria mater gratiae , Mater misericordiae ; Tu nos ab hoste protege , Et horâ mortis suscipe . Mary , mother of heavens grace , Mother , where mercie hath chiefe place . From cruel Foe , our soules defend , And them receive , when life shall end . The Crosse is likewise devoutly saluted in this q manner . O Crux ave spes unica , Hoc passionis tempore ; Auge pijs justitiam , Reisque dona veniam . All Haile O Crosse , our onely hope , In this time of the passion : Encrease thou justice to the godly , And give to sinners pardon . Of Faith and Merits . Hesychius saith , r The grace of God is given onely of mercie and favour , and is embraced and received by onely Faith. Gregorie held not justification by inherent righteousnesse ; for speaking even of the second justification , hee teacheth , that we are justified before God , freely by grace : s Our just advocate ( saith he ) will in judgement defend us for just , if so bee wee know and accuse our selves to bee unrighteous and unjust . He confesseth , t That all our righteousnesse is manifestly proved to be unrighteousnesse , if once it bee strictly examined according to justice . Hee accounts a mans best actions imperfect , u and unable to abide the Iudges triall , unlesse hee weigh them by the scale of his mercie . Isidore saith , x it was noted a propertie in the Catherists , or ancient Puritans , to glorie of their merits . Gregorie held not Merit of Condignitie , but appealed to the court of M●cie , saying , y I grow on to eternall life , not by the merit of my works , but by the pardon of my sinnes , presuming to obtaine that by the onely mercie of God , which I dare not hope for by my owne deserts ; and hereof , as also of the imperf●ction of our works , he gives a good reason , saying , z that the evill that is in us is simply evill ; but the good that we thinke we have , it is not absolutely pure , and simply good : a So that how much soever we travaile in good works , we never attaine to true puritie , but onely imitate it . And this may suffice to shew what religion Saint Gregorie professed ; other testimonies may be seene in Master Panks Collectanea out of Saint Gregorie , and Saint Bernard , shewing that in most fundamentall poynts they are ours . PA. Gregorie b held a Purgatorie for some smaller faults . PRO. He held not your Purgatorie ; his was onely for veniall and light faults ; yours is for such as have not c fully satisfied for the temporall punishment due to their mortall sinnes . Againe , his differeth from yours in situation , for you place yours in some quarter bordering on hell : but Gregorie d tells us of certaine soules that for their punishment , were confined to Bathes , and such other places here on earth . Besides , Gregorie in his Dialogues , whence you would prove your Purgatorie , tells many strange tales ; as , of one Stephen a Priest , e who had the Devill so serviceable to him , as to draw off his hose : of f Boniface that wanting money , procured divers crownes of our Lady , and such like stuffe : insomuch that your Canus saith , g Gregorie in his Dialogues hath published such miracles , commonly received and believed , which the censurers of this Age will thinke to be doubtfull and uncertaine . Besides , Gregorie had his Purgatorie , and Soule masses from visions , h and feigned apparitions of Ghosts , i which the Scripture holds unwarrantable . And yet Gregorie upon occasion of that place of Ecclesiastes , k If the tree fall towards the South , or the North , where it falls there it shall bee , makes another inference ; namely this : l The just one in the day of his death falleth South-ward , and the sinner North-ward ; for the just by the warmth of the spirit , is carried into blisse , but the sinner with the revolting Angel , in his benummed heart , is reprobated and cast away . And m Olympiodore who lived about the yeare 500 , makes the very same inference ; and Gregorie elswhere to the same purpose saith , n that at the time of a mans dissolution , either the good or evill spirit rec●ives the soule as it comes out of the cloyster of the body ; and there without any change at all , for ever retaines it : that being on●e exalted , it can never come to be punished : and being pl●nged into eternall paine , can never thence be delivered . Now if ( according to these testimonies ) after death there be no deliverance ; but that the soule for ever remaines in that degree and order wherein death takes it : if there be no change after this life ( such as the Papists imagine theirs to be from the paines of Purgatorie , to the joyes of heaven ) surely then there can be no Purgatory , nothing but heaven or hel , whither they that come abide for ever . Now let us see what Gregorie held touching the Supremacie . PA. Gregorie maintained his Supremacie , did hee not ? PRO. Whatsoever he did , Stapleton strives to uphold it , by corrupting a place in Gregorie , who speaking of Saint Peter and other Apostles , saith , o that they were all members of the Church , under one Head , meaning Christ ; as his owne words make it cleere . Now Stapleton , to make the Pope Head of the Church , citeth the words thus : p They are all members of the Church , under one head Peter , shuffling in the name Peter : but for Saint Gregorie , hee knew not your moderne papall Supremacie , and when the See of Constantinople challenged the stile of Vniversall Bish●p , he opposed it . PA. He might dislike it in another , and yet claime it hims●lfe . PRO. He disclaimed it in any whosoever . Now so it was , Iohn Bishop of Constantinople , seeing the Emperors seate , translated thither , and other Provinces governed by Lievtenants , as also Rome besieged by the Lumbards , thought this a fit season for the advancement of his chayre , that the Imperiall City should also have the high●st chayre in the Church ; as the Emperour counted himselfe Lord of the World , so he would be stiled q Oecumenicall , or Vniversall Patriarke in the Church . Now when Iohn affected this Title , Gregorie complained not , that he wrong'd his See , by usurping that stile , as if it had belonged to the Pope ; but hee mislikes the transc●●dent power claymed by that stile , and he calls it r A stile of noveltie , and prophannesse , such as never any godly man , nor any of his predecessors ever used : s A name of Bl●sphemie , t A thing contrarie to the Churches Canons , to Saint Peter , and to the holy Gospels . Yea , he pronounceth any one that should presume to challenge the for●said title , To be the u very for●runner of Antichrist , because herein hee lifts himselfe above his brethren . PA. Gregorie forbore this Title in humilitie , x thereby to represse Iohns insolencie . PRO. This is , as if a King should renounce his Royall Title , to the end that a Rebell challenging it , might disclaime it . Gregorie indeed was an humble man , and ( as one saith of him ) When he was in his Iollitie , and Pontificalibus , hee was not so much delighted therewith , as an Hermit was with his Cat , that he used to play withall in his Cell . Gregorie indeed z professeth to bee humble in mind , but still so , as to preserve the honour of his place . Gregorie would lose nothing of his freehold I warrant you . PA. Gregorie found fault with this Title , in the sense that Iohn desired so to be universall and sole Bishop : and the rest to be his a Vicars or Deputies . PRO. It is not likely the Bishop of Constantinople ( though he were a proud man ) would keepe all others from being bishops ; that is , that they should neither ordaine Priests , nor excommunicate , nor absolve , nor sit in Counsell , but himselfe alone doe all . Besides if Iohn had sought this , surely the Greeke Bishops who consented to Iohns title of being their universall Patriarcke ( in respect of Order , though not of Iurisdiction ; ) would never have yeelded to have made themselues onely Vicars to that one bishop , and so deprive themselves of al Episcopall Iurisdiction . Yea the same bishops , though they submitted themselves to the bishop of Constantinople , and approved his Title , yet notwithstanding they exercised their ancient Iurisdiction over their severall Sees ; they were not degraded by Iohn , or his Successor Cyriacus , both which affected that Title . The true and undoubted meaning then of Gregorie , ( as his words b import ) was this ; namely , that Gregorie ( by impugning the Title of Vniversall bishop ) would have no Bishop so principall , as to make all others , as members subject to his Head-ship : and is not the charge of bishops at this day under the Papacie , for the most part Ti●ular , they being wholly at the Popes becke . PA. Was the Title of Vniversall Bishop so odious . PRO. It was , in that sense which Gregory taxed in the bishop : oth●rwise , neither he , nor wee mislike such Vnive●sall bishops , as with Saint Paul , c Have the care of all Churches , and in this respect godly bishops when they meete in Councels , and in their owne Diocesses ; whiles by their wholesome advice , admonition , or reproofe ; by their writing , or teaching ; they instruct others in the truth , prevent Schisme , and stop the mouth of Heresie ; may be called Bishops of the Vniversall Church . Thus was d Athanasius called a Bishop of the Catholike Chu●ch , not as it precisely signifieth Vniv●rsall , but rightly beleeving , or holding the Catholike Faith. PA. What conclude you out of all this ? PRO. That which maketh strongly against the Papacie . For now a dai●s , this Stile of Vniversall Bishop ( which Gregorie held to b●e the Harbinger of Antichrist ) is brought in as a maine proofe of the Popes Supremacie . e Neither could Gregorie restraine his Successors from bearing this Title : for Boniface the third , who next save one succeeded Gregorie f Obtained of Phocas the Emperour , not without great contention , that the See of Rome should bee call●d the head of all Churches , being the same place of preheminence in ●ffect which Iohn in Gregories time so much affected . Now by this the Reader may perceive , and that from the tongue and pen of one of their best Popes , that were since his time ; that in Gregories judgement , his successours that enjoy this swelling Title , and transcendent power are proved to be Antichristian Bishops . Lastly , the Reader may observe , who it was that gave the Pope this jurisdiction ; it was even that usurper Phocas , g who murthered his master Maurice the Emper●ur , and then conf●rred this prophane Title on Pope Boniface ; a fit Chapleine for such a Pa●ron . Hitherto wee have treated of Saint Gregories Faith , and visited the Colledge of Bangor , the Foundation whereof is ascribed to King Lucius , from whose time unto the entra●ce of Austine the Monke 438. yeares were ●xpired ; In all which space the Christian Faith was both taught , and imbraced in this Iland , notwithstanding the continuall persecutions of the Romans , Huns , Picts , and S●xons ; which last made such desolation in th● outward face of the Church , that they drove the Chri●●●●n bishops into the Deserts of Cornwaile , and h Wa●es ; in which number were the bishops of London and Yorke . Now by their labours the Gospell was repla●ted amongst the Inhabitants of those vast Moun●taines ; and farther spread it selfe into these Northerne parts , what time as Edwin and Oswald Kings of Northumbe●land sent for Saint Aidan and Finan into Scotland to convert their Subjects to the i Faith. PA. What were this Aidan and Finan ? PRO. They were the worthy instruments which the Lord raised up for the good of our countrey , for by the ministery of k Aidan was the kingdome of Northumberland recovered from Paganisme : ( whereunto belonged then , beside the shire of Northumberland , and the lands beyond it unto Edenborrough , Frith , Cumberland also and Westmoreland , Lancashire , Yorkshire , and the Bishopricke of Durham : ) And by the meanes of l Finan , not onely the kingdome of the East-Saxons ( which contained Essex , Middlesex , and halfe of Hertfordshire ) regained , but also the large kingdome of Mercia , with the shires comprehended under it , was first converted unto Christianitie ; so that these two for their extraordinarie holinesse , m and painefulnesse in preaching the Gospel were ●xceedingly reverenced by all that knew them ; Aidan especially , n Who although hee could not keepe Easter ( saith Bede ) contrary to the manner of them which sent him , yet hee was carefull diligently to performe the works of Faith , Godlin●sse and Love , after the manner used by all holy men ; whereupon hee was worthily beloved of all , even of them also who thought otherwise of Easter than hee did , and was reverenced not onely of the meaner ranke , but of the Bishops themselves , Honorius of Canterbury , and Felix of the East-Angles . In this Age also was held the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople , summoned by the Emperours o commandement : it was called against the heresie of the Monothelites , and therein Honorius the Pope was p accursed for a Monothelite . It was the●e also q decreed that the See of Constantinople should enj●● equall priviledges with the See of Rome . And whereas some Canons were alleadged for restraint of Priests marriage , they were opposed by this Councel ; and the Church of Rome is in expresse termes r taxed for urging them . And upon paine of deposition to the gainsayers , it was decreed ; s That the marriage of Ecclesiasticall persons was a thing lawfull : and that their conjugall cohabitation stood with the Apostolike Canons , was an ancient tradition , and orderly constitution . And in case continencie were enjoyned , it was not perpetuall , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the proper turnes , or courses of their ministery : so that the restraint of Priests from marrying , neither is , nor ever was conceived to be ( t saith learned bishop Andrews ) but Positivi juris , which being restrained upon good reason , it might upon as good reason be released ; and Pope Pius the second , was of opinion , u That there was better reason to release them , then to restraine them ; and so were divers other at the Councell of Trent , if there had beene faire play ; and yet Iesuit x Coster holds , that a Priest offends greatly if he commit fornication : Gravius tamen peccat , but he offends more grievouslie if he marry . PA. This Councel was neither the Sixt , nor generall . PRO. Caranza , and Balsamon call it both sixth and generall . We grant indeed ( that to speake precisely ) the sixt Synod under Constantine the fourth published no Canons ; but afterwards divers of the same Fathers , which had formerly met in the sixt Synod , they and others , to the number of 227 , being called together by the then penitent and restored Emperour Ius●inian , gathered up , and set for●h the Canons formerly made , and by them re-enforced : and Balsamon z saith , that Basilius Bishop of Gortyna , the Metropolis of Creete , ( which was then under the Arch-bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Ravenna , were there to represent the Roma●e Church . The truth is , your Romanists cannot endure t●is G●eeke Councel , because it sets the Patriarke of Constantinople , cheeke by joule with the Romane Bishop . In a word , if some Canons of this Councel be justly excepted against , this mak●s not against us ; for wee warrant not all that goes u●d●r tha● Councels name ; nor them that once spoke truth from ever erring . And it seemes Gratian he Monke hath beene a tampering with the Canon alleadged ; for in one of Gratians Editions , we reade thus : a Let not Constantinople bee magnified as much as Rome in matters Ecclesiasticall : and in another , b Let Constantinople be advanced as well as Rome . And now have we surveyed the first sixe generall Councels , and found them to have beene c called by the Emperour , and not by the Pope ; and yet d Bellarmine now a dayes denyes this power to godly Princes , and would conferre it on the Pope . THE EIGHTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 700. to 800. PAPIST . WHat say you to this eighth Age ? PROTESTANT . This Age was beholden to our nation which a afforded such worthies , as venerable Bede , the honour of England , and mirrour of his time for learning ; as also his b Scholler Alcuinus , counted one of the Founders of the Universitie of Paris , and Schoole-master to Charles the Great ; by whom , or his procurement were written tho●e Libri Carolini , King Charles his bookes , opposing the second Nicen Synod which stood for Image worship . Now also lived Antonie the Monke , and Damascen , one that laid the foundation of Schoole-divinitie among the Greekes , as Peter Lombard afterward did among the Latines : he was indeed a Patron of Image-worship , yet in some other things he was Orthodoxe , and in those we comply with him . Now also was held a famous Councel at Constantinople in the East , and another at Frankford in the West , both of them opposing the second Nicen Synod . Now also lived Adelbert of France , Samson of Scotland , and Claudius Clemens of the same nation , Bishop of Auxer●e in France : c Th●se with others oppos●d Boniface the Popes factour , whiles he sought to stablish Papall Supremacie , adoration of Reliques and Images , Pargatorie , prayer for ●he dead ; and to impose single life on the Cl●rgie ; and for ●his they were persecuted under Pope Zacharie with bonds and imprisonment . Aventin● sai●h , d ●ha● Albertus Gallus , and other Bishops and Priest● of his sect ( so calls he the way after which they worship●●od ) did mightily withstand this Boniface , or Winifrid an Eng●i●●●an bishop of Me●tz . Toward the la●er end of this Age there lived , though they flourished in the ninth Age , Claudius Clemens Scotus , as also Ioannes Mailrosius Scotus , called Madrosius , haply for that he lived in the Monastery of Mailros , planted by bishop Aidan , and his followers in Northumberland , where also Saint Cuthbert had his education . PA. I claime Saint Bede for one of ours . PRO. You will lose your claime , for though he were tainted with superstition , and slipt into the corruptions of the Times wherin he lived , Beleeving and reporting divers Fabulous Miracles , and incredible Stories , as some of your owne men haue f censured him ; neither doe we defend all hee wrot ; yet in divers maine grounds of Religion , he was an Adversarie to your Trent Faith. Bede was a Priest , he lived in the Monasterie of Saint Peter and Saint Paul at Weere-mouth neere Durham : A great Clerke , and writer of the English Story . Alcwin , or Alwin , was a Yorke-shiere man , as appeares by his name Alwin which in these parts continues to this day ; He was i Keeper of the Library at Yorke , erected by Archbishop Egber● : He was also Schoole-master to Rabanus , and in great k favour with his Pupill Carolus Magnus , whom hee perswaded to found the Vniversitie of Paris . He wrot three bookes of the Trinitie , and Dedicated them to Charles . The Papists charge l Calvin to have made these bookes , and to have set them forth in Alcuinus name , ( Alcuin and Calvin being all one name by changing the Letters ) but this is untrue , m since both the note of the beginning and ending of this booke is to be seene in an anc●ent Manuscript in Lincolne Colledge ; and the very Copie it selfe written ( as it may be conjectured ) above five hundred yeeres agoe , is to be seene in the Princes Library at Saint Iames. Besides that , my selfe have seene n Alcwin's booke of the Trinitie , Printed in the yeare 1525. whereas Calvin ( by o Bellarmines account ) shewed not himselfe untill the yeere 1538. Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie and Canon . Damascen saith ; p Whatsoever is delivered unto us in the Law , and the Prophets , by the Apostles and Evangelists ; that wee receive , acknowledge and reverence : and besid●s these wee require nothing else . The same Damascen numbers all those bookes , and those onely as Canonicall , that we doe ; and addeth , That q the Bookes of Wisdome and Iesus the Sonne of Syrach are good Bookes , and containe good Lessons ; but that they are not numbred in this account , neither were layd up in the Arke . And our Alcuinus , Abbot of Saint Martins at Tours in France , writing against Elipantus bishop of Toledo , tels him that he urged authori●ies out of the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach : but ( saith he r ) Saint Hierome and Isidore doe testi●ie , that without question it was to be reputed amongst the Apocryphall and doubtfull Bookes . Of Communion under both kinds , and the number of Sacraments . Charles the Great saith , s The mystery of the body and bloud of Christ is daily received by the faithfull in the Sacrament . of his ●lesh and bloud in ●anis ac vini figurâ , in the figure o● bread and wine . And that ●he Sacrament is in it owne na●ure br●ad and wine , but the body and bloud of Christ by Mysticall and Sacrame●tall relation hee shewes in the same termes as Isidore did before him , and Rabanus after him . Becaus● bread ( saith c Bede ) confirmes the b●dy , and wine doth worke bloud in the flesh ; therefore the one is mystically ref●rred to the body of Christ , the other to his bloud . But to leave particular men , we have the suffrage of a whole Councel held at Constantinople in the yeare 754 , wherein it was maintained , that d Christ chose no other shape or type under heaven to represent his Incarnation by , but the Sacrament which he delivered to his Ministers for a type and a most effectuall commemoration thereof ; f Commanding the substance of bread to bee offered ; and this bread they affirme to be , g a true Image of his naturall flesh . And these assertions of theirs they are to be h found in the third tome of the sixth Action of the second Councel of Nice . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Concerning Images , venerable Bede ( as we find him cited by Gerson i the Chancellour of Paris ) saith , That Images are not simply forbidden to bee made , but they are utterly forbidden to bee made to this end , to bee worshipped and adored . Charles the Great ( k as Cassander saith ) hath pithily and wittily stated this question of Images ; that it is no prejudice to want t●em , nor priviledge to have them ; that such as utterly reject them , may be taxed with ●icklenesse , and they that worship them , branded with folly . In this Age there arose great contention in the Church , touching the matter of Images ; the Greeke Emp●rou●s , Leo Isaurus , Constantine , Nic●phorus , Stauratius , Leo Armenus , Michael Balbus , Theophilus , and others their ●uc●essours , opposi●g them in the East ; and on the other side , Gregorie the second , and third , Paul the first , Stephen the fourth , Adrian the first , and other Popes of Rome as stiffly upholding them in the West . In a Councel of 338 Bishops l held at Constantinople Anno 754 , they were solemnly condemned ; for they banished all other Images , and determined , That there was one onely Image appointed by Christ , to wit , the blessed bread and wine in the Eucharist , which represent to us the body and bloud of Christ : there was decreed under Constantine , nicknamed C●pronymus ; m That none should privately in houses , or publikely in Churches , procure , keepe , or worship any Image , u●on paine of deposition . Zonaras saith , n That in the hearing of all the people , they openly forbad the worship of Images , calling all such as adored th●m , Idolaters : and speaking of the Emperour Leo Armenus , hee saith , o He was mightily bent against them , insomuch as he decreed utterly to abandon them . Thus did those Ezekiah's of Greece , being strongly opposed by the Papall fo●ces . Now so it was , afterwards in another Co●n●el of 350 bishop p held at Nice in the yeare 787. Images were set on foote againe , and this Councel was cal●ed and swayed under that Doctresse Irene the Empresse , q By whose Councel and procurement , the Peeres whom she had corrupted , shut up her sonne Constantine the Emperour in the palace where he was borne , and there they put out his eyes so that he died of hearts griefe . Thus they put out the eyes of him that saw , and set up Images that have Eyes and see not : and all this was done ( saith the story ) that her sonne being deposed , she might 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Rule alone . But this dec●ee of the Nicen Synod , repealed by that at Frankford , was not halfe so bad as that which followed , when Aquinas set up Schoole , and taught , r That the Crucifixe , an● Image of Christ must be adored with the same honour that hims●lfe is ; to wit , with Latria , or divine Honour : whereas those Nice Fathers haply stood but for veneration , s or outward reverence of Images , in passing by them , or s●anding before them , as friends use to salute or embrace one another . Howsoever , the Nicen d●●r●e was r●j●cted as repu●nant to the doctrine of G●ds Church , by the P●inc●s and bish●ps of England fi●● , about the yeere 792. And by Charles th● Great afte●w●rd ; a●d by the b●sh●ps of Italie , France , and Germany , which by his appointment were gathered together in the Frankford Counce● in the yeare 794. Rog●r Hovede● saith , t ●harl●s the French King sent a Synod●ll i●to Britaine , directed unto him from Constantinople , in the which booke many things ( out alas ) inconvenient , an●●epugnant to right faith , were found , especially it was con●●●med a most by the unanimous consent of all the Eastern Doctors , ●o l●sse than three hundred or more , that Images ought to ●e worshipped , which thing the Church of God doth altogether d●test : agains● which Synodall b●oke , Albinus wrote an Epistle m●rveilouslie con●irmed by authoritie of divine Scripture , and ca●ried the same to the French King , together with the fore . s●●d booke , in the name of our Bishops and Princes . H●n●marus Bishop of Rhemes living at the same time , s●ith , u In the time of the Emperor Charles , by the command of the See Apostolike , there was a generall Councell , called by the Emperour ; wherein according to the pathway of Scripture , and tradition of ancestors , the Greekes false Synod was destroyed● and wholl● ab●ogat●d , touching the repealing whereof , the●e was a just Volumne sent from the Emperour to Rome , which my selfe have read in the Pallace , when I was a yo●g man , saith Hin●marus . ●he same also i● testified by x others , namely , Ado , Rh●g●o , and Cassander , a moderat Pontifician : and King Charles speaking of this Synod , sayth ; that y be●●g destitute of Scripture proo●e , they betooke themselves to Apoc●●yphall and ridiculous toyes . PA. This Booke is z forged , under the name of Carolus Magnus . PRO. Indeed , we were not at the making thereof , yet thus much we can witnesse ; that your Champion Eckius saith , a Charles wrote foure books touching Images ; and Austine Steuchus , the Popes Library-keeper , b presseth some things out of those Caroline bookes , making ( as hee thinks ) for his masters advantage . Cassander saith , c That in his time there was a copy of those Caroline books in the Vaticane Librarie , and in divers places of France ; and that Hincmarus Bishop of Rhemes , mentions those foure Caroline bookes . Besides , they were lately to be seene in the Palatines Library at Heidelberg , but are now conveyed to Rome : where , yet for all Charlemaignes greatn●sse , th●y h●●e sued out a Prohibition against him , d And his book● are forbidden in the Romane Index , first published by Pius the fourths command , enlarged by Sixtus Quintus , and r●viewed , and published by Clement the eight . Howsoever , you see , and Baronius confes●eth , that the most learned an●●amous of these times speake against this Nicen decree . PAP . The Councel of Frankford and Paris , e under Lewis the first , and other learned men mistooke the d●finition of th● Nicen Councel , and therein erred● yet no● i● a m●tter of doctrine , but a matter of fact , say Geneb●ard , and Bellarmine . PRO. There be of their owne side as learned as they whi●h mislike this excuse , to wit , f Suarez , and Vasques ; so tha● it seemes , they are not agreed of their verdict , nor who shall speake for them . PA. Bellarmine saith , That the Pope confirmed the Frankford C●uncell in one part , and canc●lled it in another ; to wit , in that poynt , touching adoration of Images , whereunto the Popes Legates never consented . PRO. This b●wrayes the Popes partiall d●aling , to make the Counc●l onely to serve his owne turne . But what if it wa●ted ●is approbation ? the thi●d Canon of the Chalced●n Counc●l , that gave the See of Constantinople the precedence b●f●re other Patriarkes , as the n●xt after the Bishop of Rome , was opposed by Pope Leo's L●gat●s ; and yet the Canon was decreed and pass●d , and the Councell is held for Generall , howsoever the P●pes Legates h contradicted it . For they were to bee ruled by the maior part of the Councels votes ; neither doe wee find that anciently the Pope had a negative or casting voice in Councels . And therefore the Chalcedon Councel , notwithstanding the Popes opposition professeth ; i Haec omnes dicimus , This is all our vote , k and tota Synodus , the whole Councel hath confirmed this Canon , for the honour of the See of Constantinople : l and accordingly the whole Councel wrote to Pope Leo. PA. Could the later Councel at Frankford , repeale the former at Nice ? PRO. Very well , for as Saint Austine saith , m Even full and plenarie Councels themselves , may be amended by the later . Neither doth he meane it in matter of fact , but in point of doctrine ; for Austine there speakes of Re●aptization ; and ●m●ndari , is as much as è mendis purgari , to be rectified , wherein it erred ; and not onely to be Explaned . PA. Would Charles who loved Pope Adrian so dearely , n write against him so sharply ? or the See of Rome ( which by the hands of Leo the third crowned Charles Emperour of the West ) endure that Charles should condemne Images ? PRO. Charles might love the See of Rome , and yet expresse his judgement in the point of Images ; neither doe we doubt , but that Charles and Pipin would have condemned the Popes proceedings therein more expressely , but they could not meddle with the poynt of state , without quarrelling the Pope in a matter of the Church : so that as Saint Austine saith of the old Romans , o That they bare downe many desires , for the excessive desire they had of one thing , to wit , Soveraignty and Dominion ; so the bishops of Rome , desirous to keepe their new purchases of Lumbardie , and Ravenna , which Charles and Pipin had procured them , thought it not fit to contend with their new and potent favorites . For so it was , when the Emperour Leo the third , desirous to abolish Image worship , ( which then was creeping in ) had caused them to be defaced , and thereupon did punish some who withstood it ; p Gregorie the second excommuuicated him , q Forbidding the Italians to pay him tribute , or to obey him ; upon this sentence and exhibition of the Pope , a great part of Italie r rebelled against their Emperour resiant at Constantinople , and part of the countrey that rebelled was Conquered by the King of Lumbardie ; and Rome , and the Romane Dukedome fell unto the Pope ; now was the Emperour driven out of Italie , and every one ca●cht what he could ; the Lumbards were the strong●st partie , and with them the Pope falls at oddes about the dividing of the spoyle ; and finding them too hard for him ; as before he had used the strength of the Lumbards , to suppresse the Emperour ; so now he cals in Pipin , Marshall of the Palace , or Constable of France , and ●●a●les his son surnamed the Great , and by their power he suppressed the Lumbards : this service did Pipin and his sonne to the See of Rome ; in requitall whereof Chilp●ricke being a weake Prince was deposed ; Pipin , and the Barons and the people of France , are absolved from their Oath of Allegeance , and by Pope Zacharies favour , Pipin , sonne to Carolus Martellus , is crowned King of the F●a●ks , and Charles the Great , sonne to Pipin , is crowned Emperour of the West , by Pope Leo the third , who s●cceeded Adrian . Then came the Pope , and Charlemaigne to the partage of the Empire , leaving a poore pit●ance for the Emperour of Greece . And this was the issue of the fierce contentions about Images , The Popes pulling downe Emperours , and setting up Images : and indeed these babies and puppits served the Popes to stalke with●ll , but other fowle was shot at , to wit , Iurisdiction , and a temporall Monarchie : and indeed about this time the Pope grew great , so that it was Gods gracious dealing with his Church , that he found such opposition as he did ; the Easterne Emperour not daring , and the Westerne in regard of late courtesies received from the Pope , being ( haply ) not willing openly to affront him . And thus much of Images , come we now to speake a word or two of Prayer to Saints . Concerning Prayer , Bede in his Commentarie on the Proverbes ( rightly s ascribed to Bede , and not to Saint Hierome ) saith ; t We ought to invocate , that is , by prayer to call into us , none but God. Antonius in his Melissa , or mellifluous Sermon , saith , that , u Wee are taught to worship and adore that nature onely which is uncreated : but the Spanish Inquisitors have clipt off a piece of his tongue , x Commanding the word , Onely , to be blotted out of his writings ; now the word , Onely , is the onely principall word that shewes us the Authors drift , and the word which Gregorie Nyssen ( from whom he borrwed this speech ) y used in the Originall . Of Faith and Merits . Bede held that we are justified by the merits of Christ imputed to us : z Christs condemnation is our Iustification , his death is our life . Hee disclaimed Iustification by inherent Righteousnesse ; for speaking of a regenerate man , he saith , a That no man shall bee saved by the righteousnesse of workes , but onely by the righteousnesse of Faith : and therefore b No man should beleeve , that either his freedome of will , or his merits are sufficient to bring him unto blisse ; but understand that he can be saved by the grace of God onely . And elsewhere he saith , c That in the life to come we shall be well rewarded , and that not by merits , but by grace onely ; and he hath a sweet prayer , that d the Lord would take compassion of him , and that after the worth and condignitie of his mercies , and not after the condignitie of wrath which himselfe had deserved . His Scholler Alcuinus maintained the same truth , as appeares by these passages following . I could ( saith e Alcuinus ) defile my selfe with sinne , but I cannot clense my selfe ; it is my Saviours bloud that must purge me : and againe , f Whiles I looke on my selfe , I find nothing in mee but sinne ; thy righteousnesse must deliver mee ; it is thy mercy , not my merits that saves mee . And elsewhere , he saith very sweetly , g He onely can free me from sinne , who came without sinne , and was made a sacrifice for sinne . And thus by Gods prouidence , was the weightie point of Iustification preserved found in these latter and declining times . THE NINTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 800. to 900. PAPIST . WHat say you of this ninth Age ? PROTESTANT . The seeds of Knowledge which our worthy Co●ntrey-men Bede and Al●win planted in Gods Field , shewed themselues in their Schollers , such as were a Claudius Scotus , Scholler to Saint Bede : Rabbanus Maurus Abbot of Fulden , one who ( as b Trithemius saith , for his learning had not his match in Italy , or Germanie . Haymo bishop of Halberstat , and our Countrie-man , Ioannes Scotus Erigena , all three Schollers to c Alcuinus . Now also lived Christianus Druthmarus the Monke , and the Abbot Walafridus Strabo , who collected the ordinary Glosse on the Bible ; Agobardus bishop of Li●ns , Claudius bishop of Thurin in Piemont ; Bertram a P●iest and Monke of Corbey Abbey , wher●of Pascha●ius was sometimes Abbot , and about the yeare Eight hu●dred and ●inetie according to Bellarmine lived the Monke Ambrosius Ausbertus . About the yeare 880● lived d Remigius borne at Aux●rre in Fra●ce , and sometimes called Rhemensis ( haply ) because he taught at Rhemes : there was another Remigius Archbishop of Rhemes , who liued in the sixth Age , and converted King Clovis of France to the Christian Faith ; but this Saint Remigius ( for ought wee know ) wrot nothing . Claudius Scotus already mentioned , was one of the Irish Nation by birth , a famous Divine , and accounted one of the c Founders of the Vniversitie of Paris : this Claudius Clemens Presbiter , f was of latter standing , and inferiour in place to that other Claudius Scotus bishop of Auxer●e , a great opposite to Boniface Archbishop of Me●ts . This latter Claudius wrote on the Gospels and Epistles , and is often alleaged by the Reverend , and learned Lord Primate , Doctor Vsher. Of the Scriptures sufficiencie , and Canon . Claudius Scotus saith , g That men therefore erre , because they know not the Scriptures ; and because they are ignorant thereof , they consequently know not Christ , who is the power and wisdome of God. Hee also bringeth in that knowne Canon of Saint Herome , h This , because it hath not authoritie from the Scriptures , is with the same facilitie contemned , wherewith it is avowed . Nicephorus Patriarke of Constantinople , gives us to understand , i That the Bookes of the old Testament were twenty and two . And treating of the Apocriphall Bookes , he mentioneth in particular , the Bookes of Maccabees , Wisdome , Ester , Iudith , Susanna , Tobie . Of Communion under both kindes ; and number of Sacraments . Paschasius upon our Saviours words , Drinke yee all of this , saith , k Drinke yee all of this , as well Ministers , as the rest of the Faithfull . Rabanus saith , l That the Lord would have the Sacrament of his Body and blo●d to be received by the mouth of the Faithfull . Haymo saith , m The Cup is called the Communion , because all communicate of it , and doe take part of the bloud of the Lord which it containeth in it . Hee saith , all did communicate ; so that the People as well as the Priests were admitted to the Cup. And n Rhemigius hath the very same words with Haymo ; as indeed his Commentaries on Saint Pauls Epistles are in a manner all taken out of Haymo , as Doctor Rivet hath o observed . It is the report of our Ancestors ( saith p Walafridus Strabo ) that in the Primitive times , they were wont according to Christs Institution , to Communicate and partake of the Body and Bloud of our Lord , even as many as were prepared and thought fit . q Regino describeth the manner of Pope Adrians delivering the Communion to King Lotharius and his followers in both kindes ; The King ( saith hee ) takes the Body and Bloud of our Lord at the hands of the Pope , and so did the Kings Fallowers . Paschasius saith , r These bee the Sacrament● of Christ in the Church , Baptisme and Chrysme , and the Body and Bloud of Christ : and s Rabanus hath the selfe same words : Now with Baptisme they joyne Chrysme , because they used to annoint such as were baptized ; for otherwise t Rabanus speakes precisely of two , saying ; What doe these two Sacraments effect ? and then hee answers ; That by the one we are borne anew in Christ , and by the other Christ abides in us . Of the Eucharist . Rabanus saith , u Bread because it strengthneth the body , is therefore called the Body : and Wine because it maketh bloud , is therefore referred to Christs bloud . Haymo x saith the same with Rabanus ; Rabanus farther saith , y That the Sacrament in one thing , and the power thereof another ; the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the body ; by the vertue of the Sacrament we attaine ●ternall life : Hee saith , the Sacrament ( which is the Bread ) is turned into our bodily nourishment ; n●w sp●cies , shewes , and accidents can not nourish : but these latter words of Rabanus are raz●d ●ut ; whereas the Monke of Malmesbury witnesses that Rabanus wrote accordingly as is alleaged , and this razure is observed by the publisher of Mathew of Westminsters Historie . Haymo calls the Eucharist , A a Memoriall of that Gift or Legacie , which Christ dimised unto us at his Death . Rabanus saith , b that Christ at first instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Bloud , with blessing and thanksgiving ; and delivered it to his Apostles , and they to their Successors , to doe accordingly ; and that now the whole Church throughout the world observes this manner . Christianus Druthmarus reporting our Saviours Act at his last Supper , sayth , c Christ changed the bread into his body , and the wine into his bloud Spiritually : he speaks not of any change of substances . Walafridus Strabo saith , d That Ch●ist delivered to his Disciples the Sacraments of his body and bloud , in panis & vini substantiâ , in the substance ●f bread and Wine . When Carolus Calvus the Emperour , desired to compose some diffe●ences about the Sacrament then on ●oot ; he r●quired Bertram , a learned man of that Age , t● deliver h●s j●dgement in that poynt , Whether the body and bloud of Christ which in the Church is received by the mouth o● t●● faithful , be celebrated in a mystery , or in the truth ; an● whether it be the same body which was borne of Mary ? Whereunto h● returnes this answer ; f That the bread and the wine , a●e t●● body and bloud of Christ figuratively ; that g This body is t●e pledge , and the ●igure , the other the very naturall bodie ; h That for the substance of the Creatures , that which they were before consecration , the same are they also afterward . i That they are called the Lords body and bloud , because they take the name of that thing of which th●y are , a Sacrament ; k That there is a great difference betwixt the mystery of the bloud and body of Christ , which is taken now by the faithfull in the Church , and that which was borne of the Virgin Mary . All which he proves at large by Scriptures and Fathers . Your wisedome most excellent Prince , may perceive ( saith he l ) that I have proved by the testimonies of holy Scriptures and Fathers , that the bread which is called Christs body , and the Cup that is called his bloud , is a figure , because it is a mysterie . PA. I except against Bertram , his booke is forbid to be read , but by such as are m licenced , or purpose to con●ute him . PRO. Bertram n wrote of the body and bloud of Chr●st , as Trithemius saith ; and by your Belgicke or L●w Countrey Index , Bertram is stiled o Catholicke . Now this Index was published by the King of Spaines commandment , & the Duke of Alva , and first printed at Antwerp , in the yeare 1571 , and often since reprinted . Now so it is , howsoever he be accounted a Catholicke Priest , and much commended by Trithemius , yet are this Catholicks writings forbid to be read , as appeares by severall Indices ; the one set forth by the p Deputies of the Trent Councel ; and another printed at Parts , q under Clement the eight . Now these Inquisitors dealt too roughly , and therefore the divines of Doway , perceiving that the ●orbidding of the booke , kept not men from reading it , but rather o●casioned them to seeke after it ; thought i● better policie , that Bertram should be suffered to goe abroad , but with his keeper , to wit , some popish glosse to wait on him . Seeing therefore ( r say they ) we beare with many errours in other old Catholicke writers , and extenuate them , excuse them , by inventing some device , oftentimes deny them , and ●aine some commodious sense for them when they are objected in disputation with our adversaries : we doe not see why Bertram may not deserve the same equitie , and diligent revisall ; les● the Her●ticks cry out , that we burne and forbid such antiquity as maketh for them ; and accordingly they have dealt wi●h Bertram ; for by their Recognition , s We must reade Invisibiliter , in stead of Visibiliter ; and these words , [ The Substance of the Creatures ] must be expounded to signifie outward shewes , or Accidents . But this will not serve the turne ; for Bertram speaking of the consec●ated b●ead and wine , saith , that for the substance of the creatures , they remaine the same after consecration , that they were before . Now if they doe so , then is not the substance of b●ead and wine changed into the substance of the flesh and bloud of Christ , as the Trent Councel would have it . t Nor will it serve to say , that by the substance of the Creatures is meant the outward accidents , as the whitenesse of the bread , the colour of the wine , or the like : for Bertram speakes properly , that the consecrated bread and wine , remaine the same in substance . And it were an improper speech to attribute the word Substance , to Accidents , as to say the substance of the colour , or rednesse of the wine , or the like . PA. Master Brerely suspects u that this booke was lately set forth by O●colampadius under Bertrams name . PRO. This suspicion is cleered by the antient Manuscript copies of Bertram extant , before Occolampadius was borne ; one whereof that great Scholler , Causabon , saw in the Librarie of Master Iames Gilot , a Burgesse of Paris , as he x witnessed to the Reverend and learned Primate , Doctor Vsher. And yet besides these M●nuscripts , Bertram taught the same doctrine in other books also , to wit , De Nativitate Christi , and de Animâ , which are to be seene in the Libraries of the Cathedrall Church of Sarisburie , and Bennet Colledge in Cambridge , as the same y Bishop Vsher observes . PA. Was Bertram a learned man , and of a good li●e ? PRO. Trithemius the Abbot gives him a large z commendation , For his excellent learning in Scripture , his godly life , his worthy Bookes , ( and by name , this of the Body and Bloud of Christ. ) Clodius de Sanctes a ●aith , Hee is put in the Catologue of Ecclesiasticall Writers , for one Catholike in life and doctrine ; and your Brerely b saith , That ancient Catholike Writers doubt not to honour Bertram for a holy Martyr of their Church . Now are wee come to our famous countrey-man Scotus , much what of Bertrams standing , and both of them in favour with Charles ; unto whom as Bertram Dedicated his Treatise of the Sacrament ; so also Ioannes Scotus wrot of the same argument , and to the same effect that Bertram had done . Bellarmine saith , c That Scotus was the first who in the Latine Church wrot doubt●fully of the reall presence . It is indeed their fault that we have not his Booke , yet may wee presume that he wrot positively ; neither doe we any where find , that his booke of the Sacrament was condemned before the dayes of Lanfrancke , d who was the first that leavened the Church of England with this corrupt doctrine of the carnall presence ; so that all this while , to wit , from the yeare 876 , to 1050 , he passed for a good Catholike . PA. Was Scotus a man of that note ? PRO. He was ( as Possevine saith e Scholler to Bede , Fellow-pupill with Alcuinus , and accounted one of the founders of the Vniversitie of Paris , and in the end dyed like a Martyr . For after that he came into England , and was publike Reader in Oxford , by the favour of King Alfred , he retired himselfe into Malmsbury Abbey , and was there by his owne Schollers stabbed to death with Pen-knives : and this was done ( saith Bale , f and others ) g Fortassis non sine Monachorum impuls● , haply not without the Monks procurement ; being murdered by his Schollers , whiles he opposed the carnall presence which then some private persons began to set on foot . By his birth he was one h of the Scottish or Irish nation , and is sometime called Erigena , sometime Scotigena . He was sirnamed Scotus the Wise , and for his extraordinary learning , in great account with our King Alfred , and familiarly entertained by Charles the Great , to whom he wrote divers i letters . In a word , there is an old homely m Epitaph , which speakes what this Scotus was ; Clauditur hoc tumulo Sanctus Sophista Ioannes , Qui ditatus erat jàm vivens dogmate miro , Martyrio tandem Christi conscendere regnum Quo● meruit , sancti regnant per saecula cuncti . Vnder this stone Lyes Sophister Iohn , Who living had store Of singular Lore . At length he did merit , Heaven to inherit ; A Martyr blest . Where all Saints rest . Or thus : Here lyes interr'd Scotus the Sage , A Saint , and Martyr of this Age. Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Ionas Bishop of Orleance , who wrote against Claudius bishop of Turin in the defence of Images , holds that n The Images of Saint● , and Stories of divine things may b●e painted in the Church , not to be worshipped , but to be an o●nament , and to bring into the minds of simple people , things done and past . But to adore the Creature , or to give it any part of divine honour , we count it ( saith he o ) a vile wickednesse , detesting the do●r thereof , as worthy to be accursed : It is fl●t impiete ( p saith the same Ionas out of Origen ) to adore any save the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost . Agobardus , bishop of Lyons saith , q That the Ancients , they had the pictures of the Saints , but it was for historie sake , and not for adoration ; and that none of th● ancient Catholicks haply thought that Images are to be worshipped , or adored . And r the Orthodoxe Fathers for avoiding of superstition , did carefully provide that no pictures should bee set up in Churches , lest that which is worshipped should be painted on the walls . Rhemigius saith , s That neither Images nor Angels are to be adored ; and t Walasfridus Strabo , would not have divine honour given to ought that is made by us , or any other Creature . Now what say the Papists to these Testimonies ? Baronius yeelds us Walafridus Strabo , Ionas bishop of Or●leance , Hincmarus , Archbishop of Rhemes , and saith u That they fo●sooke the received opinion of the Church ; and yet they were ever held sound Catholicks . Bellarmine saith , x That Ionas was overtaken with Agobard his errour , and other bishops of France in that Age , and therefore puts in a Caveat , that Ionas must bee read warily . So that by their owne confession the learnedst , and famousest men of this Age stand for us in this point ; & this makes them seeke to suppresse such testimonies as are given of them . Papirius Massonus set forth this booke of Agobards , and delivers the argument therof to be this : y Detecting most manifestly the errours of the Greci●ns touching images & pictures : he ( to wit , bishop Agobard ) denies t●at they ought to be worshipped : which opinion all we Catholicks do allow and follow the testimony of Gregory the great concerning them . Now this passage the Spanish Inquisitors , in their expurgatorie Index , Commanded t● bee blotted out , and this is accordingly a performed by the Divines of Collen , in their late corrupt Edition of the great Bibliothek of the ancien● Fathers . To close up this poynt ; Charles the Great was seconded by his Sonne Lewis the Godly ; for by his appointment , the Doctors of France b assembled at Paris , in the yeare 842 , and there condemned the adoration of Images . It is not strange ( saith c Ambrose Ansber●us ) that our prayers and teares are not offered up unto God by us , but by our High Priest , since that Saint Paul exhorts us , to offer up the Sacrifi●e of Praise unto God. Haymo upon those words of Isay , 〈◊〉 enim Pater noster , Thou O Lord art our Father . [ Isay. 6● . ver . 16. ] ●aith , d Et rectè solum invocamus ac d●p ecamur te , And we doe right , onely to invocate thee , and to make our supplication to thee . Of Faith and Merit . Claudius Scotus saith , that Faith alone saveth us , because by the works of the Law no man shall be justified ; yet he addeth withall this caution , f Not as if the works of the Law should be contemned , and without them a simple faith , ( so he calleth that solitary faith , which is a simple faith indeed ) should bee desired ; but that the works themselves should be adorned with the Faith of Christ. Rhemigius saith , h That in truth , those onely are happy , who are freely justified of grace , and not of merit . Haymo saith , i Wee are saved by Gods grace , and not our owne merits ; for we have no merits at all . Ambros. Ansbertus expounding that place , Revel . 19. 7 makes this inference . k In this doe wee give glory to him , when we doe confesse , that by no precedent merits of our good deeds , but by his mercie onely , wee have attained unto so great a dignitie . And l Rabanus in his commentaries upon the Lamentations of Ieremie ; least they should say , our Fathers were accepted for their Merit , and therefore they obtained such great things at the hands of the Lord ; he adjoyneth , that it was not given to their Merits , but because it so pleased God , whose free gift is whatsoever he bestoweth . I will close up this Age onely with producing an Evidence drawne about the yeare 860 , namely , a learned Epistle which Huldericke Bishop of Ausburg , in Germanie , wrote to Pope Nicolas in defence of Priests Marriage . From this holy discretion ( m saith he ) thou hast no a little swarved , when as thou wo●ldst have those Cleargy-men , whom thou oughtest only to advise to abstinence from mariage , compelled unto it by a certaine imperious violence : for is not this justly in the judgement of all Wise men to be accounted violence , when as against the Evangelicall institution , and the charge of the Holy Ghost , any man is constrained to the execution of private Decrees ? The Lord in the old Law appointed marriage to his Priest , which he is never read afterwards to have forbidden . PA. Master Brerely saith , n that this Epistle is forged under the name of Ulrick Bishop of Augusta . PRO. Your Spanish Inquisitors have o suppressed this Tes●imonie , and strucke it dead with a p Deleatur ; Let that whole Epistle be blotted out : but our learned bishop , Doctor Hall , q prooves that this Huldericke wrote such a Treatise , and about the time assigned , and also that this Record is Authenticke ; that it is extant , ( as Illyricus saith ) in the Libraries of Germanie , that ou● Archbishop Parker , bishop Iewell , Iohn Foxe , had Copies of it in Parchment of great Antiquitie . Besides , your owne man Aeneas Sylvius , afterwards Pope Pius the second , almost two hundred yeares agoe , mentions it , and reports the Argument of it ; for speaking of Ausburg , he saith , r Saint Vdalricus huic praesidet , qui papam arguit de Concubinis : Vdalricke is the Saint of that City , who reproved the Pope concerning Concubines . THE TENTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 900. to 1000. PAPIST . WE are now drawing on to the thousandth yeare , what say you to this tenth Age ? PROTESTANT . By the fall of the Romane Empi●e , Learning was now decayed , and the publike Service no longer to be understood , by reason of the change of the vulgar Tongues . Wernerus a Carthusian Monke a saith of this Age , That holinesse had left the Popes , and fled to the Emperours . Bellarmine saith , b There was no Age so unlearned , so unluckie . And Baronius complaines saying c What was then the face of the Roman Church ? when potent and base Whores bare all the sway at Rome ? at whose lust , Sees were changed , Bishoprickes bestowed , and their Lovers thrust into Saint Peters Chaire ? Insomuch as Baronius is glad to prepare his Reader with a d Preface , before he would have him venter upon the Annals of this Age , Lest a weake man seeing ( in the Story of those times ) the abomination of Desolation sitting in the Temple , should bee offended , and not rather wonder , that there followed not immediatly the Desolation of the Temple . And he had reason to Preface as much , considering the corruption that grew in this Thousandth yeare , wherein e Satan was let loose . For at thi● time they of Rome forbad others to mar●y , and in the meane whiles themselves slept in an unlawfull bed : They also devised a carnall Presence of Christ in the Sacrament , so that ( as the noble Morney f saith ) The lesse that they beleeved God in h●aven , the more carefull were they to affirme him to bee in the Bread , in the Priests hands , in his words , in his nods ; and that by these meanes when it pleased them , they could make him appeare upon earth . Thus dishonesty accompanied infidelitie ; and no marvell since ( as Ockam g saith ) A lewd life ( oftentimes ) blind●th the understanding . But le● us see whether in this Monkish Age , during this mist in Aegypt , wee can discover any light in the Land of Goshen In this Age lived the Monke Radulphus Flaviace●sis , Stephanus Edvensis Bishop , Smaragdus h Abbot of Saint Michaels in Germany , and Aelfricke Abbot of Malmesburie , about the yeare , 975. Of the Scriptures suf●iciencie , and Canon . Flaviacensis compares the Scripture to a well-furnished Table , or Ordinarie . It is ( saith hee ) i our spirituall refection , and Cordiall given to us against the heart-qualmes of our enemies . The same Author speaking of Bookes pertainning to sacred Historie k saith ; The Bookes of Tobit , Iudith , and of the Machabees , though they bee read ●or the Churches instruction , yet they have not any perfect Authoritie . In like sort Aelfricke Abbot of Malmesburie , in his Saxon Treatie of the old Testament , tell us ; l There are two Bookes more placed with Salomons workes , as if he had made them , which for likenesse of Stile , and profitable vse ; have gone for his , but Iesus the sonne of Syrach composed them : one is called Liber Sapientiae , the Booke of Wisdome , and the other , Ecclesiasticus , very large Bookes , and read in the Church of long custome , for much good instruction : amongst these Bookes the Church hath accustomed to place two other tending to the glory of God , and intituled Maccabaeorum : I have turned them into English , and so reade them you may ( if you please ) for your owne instruction . Now by this Saxon Treatise , written by Aelfricus Abbas , about the time of King Edgar , ( seven hundred yeares agoe ) it appeares what was the Canon of holy Scripture here then received , and that the Church of England had it so long agoe in her Mother tongue . Of Communion under both , and number of Sacraments . Stephanus Edvensis saith m These gif●s or benefits ●re dayly performed unto us , when the Body and Bloud of Christ is taken at the Altar . Aelfricke mentions but two Sacraments , of Baptisme , a●d the Lords Supper ; the same which Gods people had under the Law ; who though they had many Rites and Ceremonies , yet ( in proper sense ) but two Sacraments ; his words are these ; n The Apostle Paul saith [ 1 Cor. chap. 10. vers . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. ] That the Israelites did eate the same ghostly meate , and drinke the same ghostly drinke ; because that heavenly meate that fed them fortie yeares , and that water which from the Stone did flow , had signification of Christs Body , and his Bloud , that now bee offered dayly in Gods Church . So that as a good Author saith , o This Age acknowledged onely two Sacraments . Of the Eucharist . Our English Abbot Aelfricke in his Saxon Homily , which was appointed publikely to be read to the people in England , on Easter day , before they received the Communion , hath these wordes ; p All our For●fathers they did eate the same Ghostly meate , and dranke the same Ghostly drinke ; they dranke truely of the stone that followed them , and that stone was Christ ; neither was that stone then from which the water ranne bodyly Christ , but it signifyed Christ. The same Abbot saith , q Men have often searched , and doe yet often search ( so that it seemes that this was then in question , and so before Berengarius time ) how bread that is gathered of Corne , may be turned to Christs body , or how wine that is press●d out of many grapes , is turned through one blessing to the Lords Bloud : and the resolution returned is this : r Now say wee to such m●n ; that some things bee spoken of Christ by signification , some thing by thing certaine : true thing and certaine is that Christ was borne of a Maid : Hee is said Bread by signification , and a Lambe , and a Lyon ; Hee is called Bread , because hee is our life , hee is said to bee a Lambe for his Innocencie . But Christ is not so notwithstanding after true nature , neither Bread , nor a Lambe . Why is then the holy Housell called Christs Body , or his Bloud , if it be not truely that it is called ? Without they be seene bread and wine both in figure and taste ; and they ●ee truly after their hallowing , Christs body and blood , through Ghostly mysterie . And againe , s Much is betwixt the body Christ suffered in , and the body that is hallowed to Housel : the body truely that Christ suffered in was borne of the flesh of Mary , with bloud and with bone ; and his Ghostly body which wee call the Housel , is gathered of many Cornes , without bloud and bone ; and therefore nothing is to bee understood therein bodily , but all is Ghostly to bee understood . Here wee see , the body of Christ borne of the blessed Virgin , the body of fl●sh , is plainly distinguished from the consecrated substance of bread , or the Body Sacramentall , which the Homilist cals Ghostly . And againe , This Mysterie i● a pledge and a figure ; Christs body is truth it selfe ; the pledge we doe keepe Mistically , untill wee bee come to the truth it selfe , and then is this pledge ended . Truely it is Christs body and bloud not Bodily but Ghostly ; and ye should not search how it is done , but hold it in your beliefe that it is so done . The like matter also was delivered to the Clergie by the Bishops at their Synods , out of two other writings of the same u Aelfricke ; in the one whereof directed to Wulfsine Bishop of Shy●burne , we reade thus : x That holy Housel is Christs body , not Bodily , but Ghostly ; not the body which he suffered in , and so forth . In the other witten to Wulf●tane Archbishop of York , thus : y That lively bread is not bodily so , nor the selfe-same body that Christ suffered in ; nor that holy wine is the Saviours bloud which was shed for us in bodily thing , but in Ghostly understanding ; both be truely the bread his body , and the wine also his bloud , as was the heavenly bread which wee call Manna : which words are to be seene mangled z and razed in a Manuscript , in Bennets Colledge in Cambridge , as our learned Antiquarie of Oxford , hath well observed a . And we may conceive it to be done by some Papist , for that it plainely confutes the doctrine of Transubstantiation ; the best is , the evidence is restored out of another Copie . PA. Here is much a doe with an old Record , which your selves will not ( haply ) justifie in every poynt . PRO. The Record is both ancient and authenticke ; but to be free from errour , is the priviledge of holy writ : your selves stand not to all which the Fathers , even of the first Age wrote . Why then sh●uld we make good all that was delivered in this later , and ignorant Age , so much cumbred with Monkery ? There are indeed in this Homily some suspicious wordes ; as where it speakes of the Masse to be profitable to the quicke and dead , of the mixture of water with wine ; and a report of two vaine miracles , which notwithstanding , seeme to have beene infarced ; for that they stand in their pl●ce unaptly , and witho●t purpose , and the matter witho●t th●m , both before and af●er , doth hang in it selfe tog●th●r most orde●ly : besides , these mistakes they are but touched by the way , and a●e different from th● whole scope of the Authour . Thus was Priest and people taught to believe in the Chu●ch of England , above sixe hund●ed yeares agoe ; for this Sermon was written in the old Saxon tongue befo●e the Conqu●st , and appointed in the reigne of the Saxons to be spoken to the people at Easter before they should rec●ive the Communion . Neither was Aelfricke the first Authour of this Homily , but the Translatour the●eof out of Latine into the old English , or Saxon tongue ; the Homily it selfe was ex●ant before his time , and the resolution thereof is the same with that of Ber●●am , and in many places directly translated out of him ; so that the doctrine is both ancient and Orthodoxe ; whereas that of Transubstantiation was not publickly taught in the Church of England , till Lanfranck and others , a thousand yeares after Christ , came with an Italian tricke , and expounded Species and forma panis , for the qualities and accidents of bread without subject or substance ; But from the b●ginning it was not so . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Concerning Images , Churches●an ●an a middle cou●se , neither rudely breaking them , nor supe●s●itiously adoring them ; and this opinion they stoutly maintained , and for some ages after continued most constant therein , as C●ss●●der b s●ith ; and hee saith true , as appeares by the pr●ctise of the French in the ninth , and the Almaines in the tw●lfth Age. The Abbat Smaragdus saith ; that Christ onely makes Inte●ces●ion in heaven for us , performing that with the Father , which he p●titioned of the Father ; being both our Mediator to preferre our Petitions , and our Creator to grant our r●qu●sts . In li●e sort , Radulphus Flaviacensis calls the Angell of the covenant Christ Iesus , d The Master of Requests to preferre our suits in the court of Heaven , and to mediate betwixt God and men . Now if he by his Fathers Patent , be Master of Requests ; surely wee may not without Commission and warrantie out of Gods word , constitute others , either Saints , or Angels , Mediators of our Prayers . Of Faith and Workes . It is of necessitie , that bel●evers should bee saved onely by the faith of Christ e ; saith Smaragdus the Abbot . Who is it that can doe all that God hath commanded ? wee are not come to that blessednesse or merit , to yeeld him obedience in all things f , saith Flaviacensis : For as g he saith , One may doe bonum , and not benè ; one without grace may doe a Morall act , as give Almes ; the act Morally good , ex genere & objecto , but not good ex fine & circumstantijs , in case it be given out of vaine glory , or ●he like . PA. You taxed this Age for imposing single life on the Clergie , this was no Innovation . PRO. In this Age there arose great contention about Priests marriage : At length about the yeare 975. the matter was referred to the Roode of Grace , which as the h Annalists , and Legendaries say ) returned this answere : God forbid it should be so , God forbid it should bee so , you have judged well once ( said the Roode ) and to change that againe is not good . Now this Oracle made for Saint Dunstan , i and against the Priests , who said this was but a subtile tricke of the Monks , in placing behind the wall a man of their owne , who through ● T●unke uttered those words in the mouth of the Roode ; the matter therefore came againe to s●anning , the Prelats and the States met at k Cleve in Wiltshire ; where after hot and sharpe Disputation on either side , a heavie mischance fell out : for whether through the weakenesse of the Foundation , or the overpresse of weight , or both , l The upper L●ft , where the Councell sate , fell downe , and many of the People were hurt , and some slaine outright . But Dunstan the Monkes Prolocutor remained unhurt ; For the Post whereon his Chaire stood , remained safe . By this fall , fell the cause of the Secular Priests , and they of Dunstans side thought these rotten joysts foundation enough whreon to build their Prohibition of Marriage . But Henrie Archdeacon of Huntington interprets this casualtie more probably , To m be a signe from God , that by their Treason and murder of their King ( who was slaine the yeare after ) they should fall from Gods favour , and be crushed by other Nations , as in the event it prooved . And thus did Dunstan by his fayned Miracles seduce King Edgar to drive out the Secular Priests ; wh●re yet Dunstan ( haply ) thought not to thrust married men out of the Clergie , but to thrust married Clergie men out of Cathedrall Churches , because they ●equired a daily attendance , as the Learned bishop Doctor n Hall hath observed . Howsoever it fell out , it is worth the observing , that the Clergy pleaded Praescription for themselves ; for so their owne Monke of Malmesbury hath recorded their plea ; they alleadged saith he ; o That it was a great sh●me , that these upstart Monks should thrust o●t the ancient possessors of those places ; that this was neither pleasing to God , who gave them that long continued habitation , nor yet to any good man , who might justly feare the same hard m●asure which was offered to them . Mathew of Westminster speaking of Pope Gregorie the seaventh , saith ; that p He r●moved married Priests from their function : a new example , and as many thought , inconsiderately prejudicial● , against the judgement of the holy Fathers ; And Henrie of Huntington saith , q Archbishop Anselme held a Synod at London , wherein hee forbad wives to the Priests of England , before not forbidden . Was not this now an Innovation ? Besides , r we find that in King Edmunds reigne , a West Saxon Prince , ( before the dayes of Edgar or Dun●tan ) bishop Osulphus with Athelme and Vlricke Laicks , thrust out the Monks of Evesham , and placed Canons ( married Priests ) in their roome . And afte●wards , when not onely the meaner sort , but the Nobles and great ones ●ided ; even then also , s Alferus a Mercian Duke , favouring the cause of married Priests , cast out the Monks , and restored againe the ancient revenewes to the Clerks ; and it seemes they were the ancient owners , and others but incommers ; inasmuch as divers Cathedrall Churches originally were founded in married Cleargy-men , and afterwards translated from them to Monks ; as appeares by that which the Monks of Worcester wrote t under their Oswald Archbishop of Yorke : Per me fundatus Fuit ex Clericis Monachatus . That is , By me were Monks first founded out of Cle●ks . So that the Monks were not the first possessors , but came in by such as Dunstan ; who wrought with that good King Edgar , by dreames , visions , and miracles , mostly tending to Monkery ; as namely , that , u When the Devill in the likenesse of a faire woman , tempted Dunstan to l●st , he caught him by the nose with an hot paire of tongs , and made him roare out for mercie : that , x Eastward● That y Dunstans harpe , hanging upon the wall , played by 〈◊〉 selfe , the tune of the Anthem , Gaudent in coelis animae Sanctorum . By the meanes of this Dunstan , and his Cousins Athelwold , and Oswald , King Edgar was set on worke for the building of religious houses ; wherein he surpas●ed Charles the Great , for whereas he z built as many as there be letters in the Alphabet , or A. B. C. King Edgar as ( app●ares by the Chart●r of the foundation of Worcester Church a ) he built almost as many as there be Sundayes in the yeare . I have made ( saith he ) 47 Monasteries , and I intend if God grant life , to make them up fiftie , which seemes to be the number that Dunstan set him for his penance . THE ELEVENTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 1000. to 1100. PAPIST . YOu said of the last Age , that Satan was let loose ; was he bound in this ? PROTESTANT . Hee that brake loose in the former , tyrann●zed in this : for now those two great Enemies of the Church , the Pope and the Turke , the one in the East , and the other in the West , began to rise to their greatnesse : about the y●are 1075 lived Pope a Hildebrand , who forbad marriage , and deposed Kings from their l●wfull thrones ; so that for his doctrine the Churches did ring of him for an Antichrist . In their Sermons ( saith Aventine , bo●n about the yeare 1466 ) they declared him to be Antich●ist , that under the title of Christ , he playd the part of Antichrist : c That he sits in Babylon in the Temple of God , and is advanced above all that is called God ; as if he were God , he glorifieth , that he cannot erre . d This fine man denyes those Priests which have lawfull wives , to be Priests at all ; in the meane time he admits to the Altar , Whoremongers , Adulterers , Incestuous persons : and afterwards Everard Bishop of Saltzburg in Germanie , in an assembly at Regenspurge spake thus of the Pope . e Hildebrand under colour of Religion , layd the foundation of Antichrist's kingdome : thus doth that child of perdition , ( whom they use to call Antichrist ) in whose forehead is written the name of blasphemie , [ Revel . 13.2 . ] I am God , I cannot erre , he sits in the Temple of God , and beareth rule far and neere . Now began the Croisier staffe to beate downe Crownes and Scepters , when Hildebrand deposed the Emperour , Henry the fourth ; and yet this fact of his was opposed and condemned by divers worthy Councels , Bishops and Historians , both in France and Germany ; and the like Papall Vsurpations , Appeales , and Investitures were also resisted in England . Hubert your Legate ( f saith William the Conquerour in his letter to Gregory the seventh ) came unto me , warning me from your Holinesse , that I should doe fealty to you , and your successors ; as for fealty , I neither would doe it to you , neither will I ; because I neither promised it my selfe , nor doe I find that my predecessors have done that to your predecessors . When Anselme an Italian , was chosen Archbishop of Canterbury , he craved leave of king William the second to goe to Rome , to receive his Pall of Pope Vrban , wherewith the King greatly offended , answered , g That no Archbishop , nor bishop in his realm , was subject to the Court of Rome , or the Pope ; and that he had that libertie in his realme , that the Emperour had in his Empire . Anselme therefore was accused of high treason ; and being still desirous to goe to Rome , the King told him , That if hee would promise , and sweare , neither to goe nor Appeale to Rome for any affaires whatsoever ; he should then well and peaceably enjoy his Bishopricke : if not , that it should be free for him to passe the Seas , but never to returne ; as the Monke of Saint Albans h reports the matter . Now also there arose great contention about the carnall presence of Christ in the Sacrament , under Pope Victor , and Nicholas the second , Hildebrand being the brand that kindled it , making Berengarius subscribe to their Tenet ; That all the faithfull in the Sacrament doe really teare with their teeth the body of Christ ; which position neverthelesse in these dayes is with them accounted hereticall . And to say the truth , they really teare the body of Christ , who by their ambition doe miserably teare in pieces the Church of Christ. Now to proceede ; there lived in this Age , i Fulbertus bishop of Chartres , k Anselme of Laon , Author of the Interlineall Glosse . Theophylact Archbishop of the Bulgarians , a great follower of Chrysostome , and indeed his Epitomizer , or Abbreviator , and our Anselme Archbishop of Canterbury , a man of speciall note in this Age. For as the l Monke of Malmsbury reports , in the Councel at Barre , when the Greekes disputed against Pope Vrban so eagerly against the procession of the Holy Ghost , that the Pope was at a Non plus , remembring himselfe that Anselme was in the Councel , he cried aloud before the whole Councel , Pater & Magister Anselme ubi es ? Oh my Father and Master Anselme where are you ? come now and defend your Mother , the Church : and when the● brought him in presence among them , Pope Vrban said , Includamus hunc in orbe nostro , quasi alterius orbis papam , Let us inclose him in our Circle , as the Pope of the other world . m Now also lived Oecumenius , Radulphus Ardens , and Berengarius . And now let us see , what these good men , and ●●ue Cathol●cke witnesses can say to the matter in qu●stion . Of the Scriptures su●ficiencie , and Canon . Sa●nt Paul saith of the Scriptures , that n They are able to make us wise unto salvation , that the man of God may bee pe●fited , thorowly furnished unto all good workes . That the man of God ( saith O●cumenius o ) may bee not onely partaker , after a vulgar manner of every good worke , but perfect and compleate by the doctrine of the Scrip●u●e . And Anselme in his Commentarie upon this place saith , p They are able to make thee sufficiently learned , to obtaine eternall salvation . Petrus Cluniacensis , Abbot of Clugin , abutting on these times ( for he was saith q Bellarmine , of the same standing with Saint Bernard , who was borne in this Age , ●ut flourished about the yeare 1130 ) after the recitall of the canonicall bookes saith , that r There are besides the Authenticall bookes , ●ixe others not to be rejected , as namely , Iudith , Tobias , Wisdome , Ecclesiasticus , and the two bookes of Maccabees , which though they attaine not t● the high dignitie of the former , yet they are received of the Church , as containing necessary and profitable doctrine . Of Communion under both ; and number of Sacraments . Theophylact sharply reproves those , who delighted in drinking alone , and quaffing by themselves , saying to such , s How dost thou take thy cup alone , considering that the dreadfull Chalice is alike delivered unto all . The Normans ( t saith Mathew Paris ) th● morning before they fought with Harald , strengthned themselves with the body and bloud of Christ. Hildebert B. of Mans , ●●lates and approves that Canon of the Councel of Brachara , which condemneth the delivering of the bread sopt in the wine to the Laitie , for the whole Cōmunion . It is the manner ( saith Hildebert u ) in your monasteries to give the Sacramentall bread to none , but dipt in the wine , which custome we find is not taken either from the Lords institution , nor out of authencall constitutions . Now they that misliked the receiving of the bread dipt in wine , how would they have beene pleased with a dry feast ? for of the two , it is better to receive the bread dipt in wine , than the bread and no wine at all . Fulbertus shewes us the way of Christian Religion , Is to believe the Trinitie , and veritie of the Deitie , and to know the cause of his Baptisme , and in whom x ( duo vitae Sacramenta ) the two Sacraments of our life are contained . Anselme mentions y but two Sacraments common to us under the Gosp●l , as the other were to the Iewes under the law ; they two , and we two , two , and no more . Of the Eucharist . In the year 1608 , there were published at Paris certaine works of Fulbertus z pertaining as wel to the refuting of the heresies of this time ( for so saith the Inscription ) as to the clearing of the history of the French. Among these things that appertain to the confutatio●●f the heresies of this time , there is one specially , fol. 168. laid down in these words , a Vnlesse ( saith Christ ) ye eat the flesh of the Son of man , and drink his bloud , ye shall not have life in you ; he seemeth to command an outrage or wickednesse ; It is therefore a figure , will the Heretick say , requiring us only to communicate with the Lords passion and sweetly and profitably to lay up in our memory , that his fl●sh was crucified & wounded for us . He that put in these words ( Dicet Haereticus ) thought he had notably met with the Hereticks of this time ; but was not aware , that therby he made S. Austin an Hereticke for company ; for the words alleadged , are S. Austins de doctrinâ Christianâ . lib. 3. cap. 16. Which some belike having put the publisher in mind of , he was glad to put this among his Errata ; b & to confesse that these two words [ Dicet Haereticus ] were not to be found in the Manuscript copie which he had from P●tavius ; bu● telleth us not what we are to think of him , that for the countenancing of the Popish cause , ventured so shamefully to abuse S. Austin , as both the learned Archbishop of Armagh , Doctor c Vsher , and Master d Moulin have observed . PA. Here is much a doe about a mistake of two words , saith our I●suit Maloune . PRO. There hath been much a doe ere this about one word , the word Deipara ; whether the blessed Virgin Ma●y were to be called the mother of God , or no ; great difference raised in the Church touching the Sacrament , and all about three prepositions , Trans , Con , and Sub ; and the greatest stirre that ever was in Gods Church , was about one letter ; ( it was but one little Iota ) whilst the Arrians●eld ●eld Christ to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the like substance with the Father , but denied him to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Consubstantiall , of the same substance with the Father . Besides , was it a matter of nothing to corrupt the ancient writers , Austin , or Fulbertus , or both ? or could this Dicet Haereticus , in probability be the mistake of the Printer ? and not rather purposely done by such as could not brooke the truth of that doctrine which Fulbert delivered out of S. Austine . But the same Fulbert elswhere , in a higher straine , tels us of a Spirituall , yet reall receiving of Christ , saying , f Hold ready the mouth of thy Faith , open the jawes of hope , str●tch out the bowels of love , and take the bread of life , which is the nourishment of the inward man. Objection . Theophylact saith , * He that eateth me , shall live by mee ; forasmuch as after a sort , he is mingled with me , and trans-elementated into me , or changed into me . Answer . Theophylact is not of that credit , as being but a late writer , above a thousand yeares after Christ , and therefore farre short of Primitive antiq●itie , living as Bellarmine saith in his catalogue of Ecclesia●ticke writers , about the yeare 1071. Besides , transelementaion proveth not transubstantiation ; for in transubstantiation , the matter is destroyed , and the quantitie and accidents remaine ; and in trans-elementation , the matter remaineth , and the essentiall accidentall formes are altered . Objection . Yea but Bellarmine * alleadgeth Theophylact saying , of the Bread , that it is trans-elementated into the body of Christ , and he useth the word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Answer . Theophylact can best tell us his own meaning● now the same Theophylact , who said that bread was trans-elemen●ated into Christs body , saith also , nos in Christum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that we also are trans-elemē●ated into Christ ; that a Christian and faithfull Communicant is in a manner t●ans-elementated i●to Christ ; for so his words are , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ● id . in cap. 6. Ioan. N●w they will not say that we are transubstantiated into Christ ; therefore neither doth Theophylact by the word Trans-elementation , used of the bread and wine understand any substantiall , but onely a Sacramentall change , in respect of the use and effect . And so I proceed . At this time also Berenger Archdeacon of Angiers in France , resisted the corporall presence . PA. I challenge Berenger . PRO. You cannot justly except against him , either for his life or his learning● In these times ( g saith Platina ) Odo Abbot of Clunie , and Berenger of Tours , were of great account , for their excellent learning , and holinesse of life . Sigebert Abbot of G●mbloux saith , h that Berenger was well skilled in the Liberall arts , and an excellent Logician ; Hildebert Bishop of Mans , and afterwards Archbishop of Tou●s , was his Scholler , and honoured his deceased master with this Epitaph i . Vir vere sapiens , & parte beatus ab omni , Qui co●los animâ , corpore ditat humum ; Post obitum vivam secùm , secùm requiescam , Nec fiat melior sors mea , sorte suâ . He was a man , was blest on every part , The earth hath his body , the heavens his heart , My wish shall be , that at my end , My soule may rest with this my friend . PA. What though he opposed the reall presence ; this was but one Doctors opinion , which himselfe br●ached without any former Catholicke precedent ? PRO. That is not so ; for his country-man Bertram , who was a Monke of Corbey Abbey in France , opposed the same long before him : and Duval a Doctor of Sorbone saith , k that Amalarius and Ioannes Scotus were Berengers fore-runners . The tru●h is , he neither wanted fore-runners , nor followers , and favourers . Sigeberts Chronicle speaking of Berengers Tenet , faith , That there was much disputation , and by many , both by word and writing , against him , and for him . Where the learned bishop Vsher observes , l that the words , Et pro eo , and for him , specially favouring Berengers cause , are left out in some Edition● ; m but they are to bee found in other authenticke copies : n and wee may by the way observe , that this poynt of carnall presence , or the Sacrament Sub Spectebus , ( for so they terme it ) was but a disputable point , pro and contra ; and no matter of Faith in Berengers dayes . Indeed this doctrine was borne downe by the Popes power , so that divers durst not make open profession thereof , yet privately they imployed both their tongues and pens in defence thereof ; and some even in a Romane Councel , ( purposely called against Berenger ) stood in Defence of his figurative sense of the Sacramentall words , as appeares by the o Acts of the same Councel . In a word , Mathew of Westminster saith , p that Berenger had almost drawne all France , Italie , a●d England to his opinion : so that the Berengarians did not lu●ke in any obscure nooke , or corner of the world , but spread themselves into the famousest parts of Europe . PA. Father Parsons saith , q that Berenger Recanted ; so that you cannot account him one of your side . PRO. Indeed Berenger was called , and appeared before divers Councels , was questioned , and cens●red by f●u●e severall r Popes ; and there was a forme of Recantation tendred to him , the tenour whereof is this , s as Gratian hath registred it in his Decrees , t aft●rwards published and confirmed by Pope Gregory the thirt●enth : I Berengarius doe firmely professe that I hold , that the body of Christ is in this Sacrament , not onely as a Sacram●nt , but even in truth is s●nsibly handled with the Priests hands , and broken and torne with the teeth of the faithfull . Now this was such a forme of an Oath , as that your owne Glosse saith of it , u that Vnlesse it be warily understood , on● may fall into a greater heresie than Bereng●r did . And yet this co●poral eating of Christs fl●sh , with the Capernaits in Saints Iobus sixth Chapter● and this tearing his body with the Communicants teeth , must be understood literally ; inasmuch as the words were purposely set downe for a formall Recantation : and Bellarmine confesseth , that x There are no formes of speech more exact and proper in phrase , concerning the matter of Faith , than such as are us●d by th●m that abjure heresie . Againe , what though B●renger upon the Clergies importunity , through humane frailty , were constrained , For feare of death ( as an Historian saith ) to subscribe● and to burn● both his owne booke , and Scotus his treatise of the Eucharist , which had led him into that opinion ? yet he might still be of the same judgement he was on before . And though he Recanted , yet he●ein he did no more than Saint Pet●r ( whose successour the Pope pretends himselfe to be ) in denying his Mast●r ; no more , than Queene Mary , who being terrified with her Fa●hers displeasu●e , wrote him a letter with her own● hand , in which for ever she renounceth the Pop●s authoritie here in England . And though hee was driven for the time to retract , yet upon his comming home , hee returned to his former Ten●t ; and as one saith who lived about the same time , z Nec tamen post●à dimisit , af●er that he never changed his opinion . In a word , ●hough Berenger himselfe were somewhat wavering , yet were his Schollers constant ; insomuch that Malmsburiensis a bitter enemy of theirs , saith , that a Though Berenger retracted , yet they could never reclaime all those , whom he in divers countreyes had drawne away . And no marvaile , since they leaned not on the weake reede of mans authoritie , but on Gods word which abideth for ever . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Anselmus Laudunensis in his Interlineall Glosse on the Bible , b Composed out of the Fathers writings , c expounds that text of Deuteronomy , Formam non vidistis , ye saw no manner of similitude , [ Deut. 4.15 . ] in this sort ; Ne scilicet volens imitari sculpendo faceres Idolum tibi , lest that willing to resemble that similitude by engraving thou shouldst set up an Idol to thy selfe . In the former times , d it was a great question , Whether at all , or how farre , or after what manner the Spirits of the dead did know the things that concerned us here ; and cons●quently whether they pray for us onely e in generall ; and for the particulars , God answereth us according to our severall necessities , where , when , and after what maner he pleaseth . Anselmus Laudunensis Interlineall Glosse upon that text ; Abraham is ignorant of us , and Irael knoweth us not ; ( Esay . 63.16 . ) note●h that Augustine saith , that f The dead , though Saints in heaven , doe not know what the living doe , no not though they bee their owne children , of whom in all probability they have a more speciall care . And indeed Saint Austine in his booke Of the care for the dead , makes this inference upon that place of Scripture ; that g If so great Patriarks , as was Abraham knewe not what befell the people that came of them ; it was no way likely that the dead doe entermeddle with the affaires of the living , either to know them , or to further them ; and Theophylact gives some reason hereof , sayi●g , h Therefore it may be said , that the Saints , both those that lived before , and sin●● Christs time , doe not know all things , and that this is done , that neither the Saints themselves should bee too highly conceited , nor others esteeme them above that which is meete . And whereas the Romanists repose such confid●nce in the interc●ssion of Saints , that they looke to receive farre greater benefit by th●m , than by their owne prayers ; Theophylact ( tracing Saint i Chrysostome in this very point , ) me●ts with this their conc●it ; Obs●rve ( saith he k ) that although the Saints doe pray for us , as the Apostles did still for her , ( to wit , the woman of Canaan , ) yet we praying for our selves doe prevaile much more . I will close up this point with the testimonie of one of our kings of England , William the second . It appeareth by writers , saith l Holinshead out of Eadmerus ) that hee doubted in many poynts of the religion then in credit ; for hee sticked not to protest openly that he beleeved no Saint could pro●it any man in the Lords sight ; and therefore neither would he , nor any that was wise ( as he affirmed ) make intercession , either to Peter , or any other for helpe . Of Faith and Merit . Theophylact saith , m The Scripture , that is , God himselfe who gave the Law , hath fore-ordained , that wee are justified not by the Law , but by Faith ; and againe n the Apostle having showne how that the Law accurseth , but Faith blesseth , he now sheweth ; that Faith onely justifieth , and not the Law. And Anselme saith , o Truely by Faith onely was Abraham said to have pleased God , and this was imputed to him for righteousnesse . Radulphus Ardens saith , and that from the Testimonie of Saint Augustine , p that God crowneth onely his owne grace in us ; and the same Radulphus , as I finde him alleadged by D●ctor Vsher in his learned Answer to the Iesuits Challenge in Ireland , in the point of Merit , ( for I could not elswhere meete with him ) saith , q God crownes nothing else in us but his owne grace , who if he should d●ale strictly wi●h us , no man living should be justified in his sight ; whereupon the Apostle who laboured more than all , s●ith , I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to bee comp●red with the glory which shall bee re●●●aled in us : therefore this agreement is nothing else but G●ds voluntarie promise . In like sort , Occumentus a Greeke Scholiast , saith , r Wee cannot suffer or bring in any thing worthy of the reward that shall be ; and our Anselme Archbishop of Canterbury more fully , saying , s If a man should serve God a thousand yeeres , and that most fervently , he should not deserve of Condignitie , to be halfe a day in the kingdome of heaven . Besides it it evident that this doctrine of free-grace was the received doctrine of the Church , both abroad , and here in England shortly after the Conquest ; and for divers ages after taught and believed both of Priest and people : for there was a certaine forme of Instruction , appointed to be given unto men upon their death-beds , to prepare them thereunto , and to leade them unto Christ. It was put into question and Answer , was commonly to be had in their Libraries , and thought ( for so saith Cardinall Hosius expressely t ) to be made by Anselme Archbish●p of Canterbury . Amongst the questions propounded to the sicke-man , this was one , u Do●st thou believe that thou canst not be saved , but by the death of Christ ? whereunto hee when hee hath made answer affi●matively , he is presently directed to make use thereof in this manner : Goe to therefore , as long as thy soule remaines in thee ; place thy whole confidence in this death on●ly ; have confidence in no other thing ; commit thy selfe wholly to this death , with this alone cover thy selfe wholly . If he say unto thee that thou hast deserved damnation● say , Lord I set the death of our Lord Iesus Christ , betwixt m● & my bad merits ; and I offer his merit in s●eed of the merit which I ought to have , but yet have not . Here was a Cordiall for a sick-soule in extr●mis , more soveraign than their extreme unction , or Holy-water-sprinkle ; than any Ind●lgences , Re●●kques , or Images , yet their quesy stomacks cānot now digest this Catholicon : but have called S. Anselms visitation i●to the Spanish inquisition ; and there by their expurgatorie Index , set out by Cardinall Quiroga , have commanded these Interrogatories to b● blotted out : x Dost thou believe to come to glory , not by thine owne merits , but by the v●rtue and merit of the passion of our Lord Iesus Christ ? and , Dost thou believe that our Lord Iesus Christ did dye for our salvation ; and that none can be saved by his owne merits , or by any other meanes , but by the merit of his passion ? whereby wee may observe ( saith our learned and laborious Bishop y Vsher ) how late it is since our Romanists in this maine and most substantiall poynt ( which is the very foundation of all our Comfort ) have most shamefully departed from the Faith of their fore-fathers . THE TWELFTH CENTVRIE , from the yeere one thousand one hundred , to one thousand two hundred . PAPIST . YOu sayd that Satan was loosed in the former ages , was he bound in this ? PROTESTANT . In this age he was mainely curbed by the professors commonly called Waldenses . There was also in England in the time of Henry the first , ( for his knowledge surnamed Beau-clerke , or fine scholler ) great contention touching investitures , or the collation of Bishoprickes . When Thurstan elect Archbishop of Yorke , received his consecration from the Pope , a the King understanding thereof , forbad him to come within his Kingdomes . This contention betweene the Crowne and the Mitre was ho●ly pursued betweene King Henry the second , and Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury ; it was partly occasioned b by one Philip de Broc Canon of Bedford , who being questioned for a murder , he used some reproachfull speeches to the Kings Iustices , for which he was censured : and I finde , that in these dayes ( as the Monke of N●wborrough who then lived , saith c ) the abuses of Church men were growne to a great height , insomuch as the Iudges complayned in the Kings presence , that there were many robberies and rapes , and murthers , to the number of an hundred committed within the Realme , by Ecclesiasticall persons ( upon presumption of exemption from the censure of the lawes . ) Herewith the King was so highly displeased , that he required that Iustice should be ministred alike unto all sine delectu , saith Novoburgensis , and Roger Hoveden saith , the Kings pleasure was that such of the Cleargie as were taken in any murther , robberie , or felonie , should be tryed and adjudged in his temporall Courts , as Lay-men were ; but the Archbishop would have the Cleargie ( so off●nding ) tryed onely in the spirituall Courts , and by men of their owne coate ; who , if they were convict , should at first onely be deprived of their benefices , but if they should againe be guilty of the like , they should be adjudged at the Kings pleasure . But the King stood upon his Leges Avitae , his Grandfathers lawes and customes ; which were indeed the auncient lawes of this realme , not first enacted by the Conqueror , but onely confirmed by him , and received from his predecessors , Edgar the peaceable , and Alfred the learned Prince , and accordingly the King in a great assembly at Clarendon , confirmed the foresaid lawes of his Grandfather , and enacted : that none should appeale to the Sea of Rome , for any cause whatsoever , without the Kings License . That it should not be lawfull for any Archbishop or Bishop to depart the Realme , and repaire to the Pope , upon his summons , without the Kings license . That Clerkes criminous , should be tryed before secular Iudges . By this we finde two maine branches , of Papal Iurisdiction , to wit , Appeales , and the exemption of Clergie men from being tryed in causes criminall , before Christian Magistrates , strongly opposed by the King , and the State. PA● . Name your men for this age ? PROT. There were divers worthies who ●lourished in this age , namely , Hugo de Sancto victore , a second Augustine ( as Trithemius calleth h him ) Zacharias Chrysopolitanus , Saint Bernard Abbot of Clarevaux ; Robert Abbot of Duits in Germany , usually called Rupertus Tuitiensis : Peter Abbot of Clugni , usually called Petrus Cluniacensis . ●oachim Abbot of Courace , of the order of the Cistertians , a man very famous in this age , and thought to have had a propheticall spirit i , Petrus Blesensis , Peter of Bloix , Archdeacon of Bath , and Chancellour of Canterbury , a man for his pleasant wit and learning in great favour with k the Princes , and Prelates of his time ; and of inward acquaintance with Iohn of Salisbury , Bishop of Chartres . Now also the Schoolemen began to arise , of whom Peter Lombard , Master of the Sentences , was the first , who was afterward made Bishop of Paris ; Aventine saith l , he hath heard of his Masters , Iames Faber of Estaples , and Iodocus Clichtoveus , above a thousand times , that this Lumbard had troubled the pure fountaine of Divinity , with muddy questions , and whole rivers of opinions : and this ( saith he ) experience doth sufficiently teach us , if we be not wilfully blinde . And yet some of their distinctions , being purged from barbarisme , and cleerely applyed to the point in question , may be of good use : especially , when as according to the proverbe , we can eate the Dates , and cast out their stones , and herein Zanchius and Iunius were excellent . It is reported m that Lumbard , Gratian , and Comestor , ( three pillers of Poperie , Gratian for the Cannon law , Comestor for the history of the Church , and Lumbard for Schoole-divinity ) were three bastards , borne of one woman , who in her sickenesse comming to confession could not be drawne to be sorry for this her incontinuencie , but thought shee had done well in bearing those great lights of the Church ; whereunto her confessour replyed , that , that was not hers , but Gods gift they proved such great scholler ; however , she was to be sorry for her fault , and be heartily sorry for this , that she could not sorrow and lament as she should . One of these brothers was called Comestor n as it were booke-eater , because he was such a Helluo librorum , a devourer of bookes , as if booke learning had beene his ordinary food , and repast : he had the Bible so perfectly by heart , as though he had swallowed it . Now what opinion was held of the Papacie , may be seene by the testimonies of such of their owne , as were famous in this age . Iohannes Sarisburiensis , had a conference with Pope Adrian the fourth , called Nicholas Breake-speare , an English man , which himselfe hath l●ft us in writing . I remember ( saith he ) I we●t ●nto Apulia to visit Pope Adrian the fourth , who admitted me into great familiarity , and inquired of me , what opinion men had of him , and of the Roman Church ; I plainely layd open unto him the evill words I had heard in d●vers Provinces , for thus it is sayd ; The Church of Rome , whic● is mother of all Churches , behaveth her selfe towards others , not as a mother , but as a stepdame : The Pope ( saith he ) laughed at it , and thanked me for my liberty of speech . The same Iohn of Sarisbury saith , that th●y wholy apply themselves unto wickednes , that they may seeme Concilium vanitatis , a Councell of vanity , the wicked Synagogue of the Gentiles , ecclesia malignantium , the Church of the envious , and evill doers . Peter of Bloyes , describeth unto us , in the person of an Officiall , the fashion and manner of the Church of Rome . For as much ( saith he ) as I love thee in the Bowels of Iesus Christ , I thought good to exhort thee with wholesome admonitions , that thou in time depart from Vr of the Chaldees , & from the midst of Babylon , and leave the mysterie of this most damnable stewardship . Richard the first , King of England , and Philip the second of France , being on their voyage to Ierusalem , and comming into Sicilie , and there hearing of Abbot Ioachim ( who was thought to have the gift of Prophe●ie ) they desired to know of him what successe they should have in this their expedition : the Abbot ( saith Paulus Aemilius ) r answered , they should not then recover it : and therein hee proved too true a Prophet : besides this they heard him expound the vision of Saint Iohn in the Apocalypse , touching the Churches afflictions , and Antichrist who ( as he said s ) was then borne , and in the Cittie of Rome , and should be advanced in the Sea Apostolicke , of whom the Apostle sayd , Hee should extoll himselfe above all that is called God : and that the seaven Crownes , were the Kings of the earth , that obeyed him ; but in the end , the Lord should consume him with the spirit of his mouth . I know indeed that Parsons saith , t the Pope censured him for certaine fond Prophecies , as also some errours about the Trinity . Extravag . de Trinit . But others * have made his just Apologie and cleered him from that imputation . Besides , all is not Gospell that is set downe in the Popes Decretalls , or Extravagants , no not in their owne account . With this of the Prophet Ioachim , agreeth that of the Prophetesse Saint Hildegard , foretelling the utter extinguishing of Religion amongst them of the Romish order . The Romane Empire ( saith this Prophecie u ) shall decay , and those Princes who did cleave unto it , shall separate themselves from it , and be no longer subject to it : this Empire ( in the West ) thus decaying without hope of repayring , the Miter of the Apostolicke honour shall also perish , x because neither Princes , nor other shall find ullam religionem , any religion in the Apostolike order , that is , in the Popes ; therefore they shal take away the honour of the Pope ; who shal scarc●●●ve Rome & a few bordering places , under his Miter . All worldly Princes , ( saith the same Nunne y ) as also the common people , shall fall upon your Priests , which hitherto have abused me ; they shall take away your substance and riches , the holy Church is polluted by them . Now also lived Peter Bruis , and his disciple Henry a monke of Tholouse : who for divers yeares together preached the word of God about Tholouse , and in the end , ●eter was taken & z burned . Papirius Massonius deriveth the pedegree of the Waldenses from these two : he saith further that they preached against transubstantiation , or the carnall presence : the adoration of the crosse , as also against praying for the dead , and other tenets of the Roman Church : Saint Bernard saith , a they denyed purgatory , and invocation of Saints : and the same Bernard more credulous than reason required , reproveth them , that like the Manichees they condemned the use of matrimony , and of flesh , and denyed also baptisme to infants : but especially b against Henry he objecteth the keeping of a Concubine , and playing at dice , It is great pitty that their owne bookes are made away , so that we are constrained to picke out their life and doctrine from the writings of their professed adversaries , whose report may justly be suspected : for even in like manner we reade in Tertullian , c that monstrous opinions and crimes were imputed to the first Christians . And yet Bernard in the meane time saith d they are sheepe in habit , and these are they that would seeme good , and yet are not ; wicked , and yet would not seeme so . It must needs be then , that their outward conversation was good : it is also confessed e , that their disciples went cheerefully to the fire , and constantly suffered al extreamities for the doctrin of their faith ; now how could this agree with a dissolute life and doctrine ? Petrus Cluniacensis ( a bitter adversary of theirs ) having charged f them with divers errors , seemeth to have perceived that he had done them wrong , for he addeth these words : g But because I am not yet fully assured that they thinke and preach so , I will deferre my answere untill I have undoubted certainty of that they say . They were favoured both of Clergie and Laietie , and followed with such multitudes , that the Temples ( saith Bernard h ) remained without people , the people without Priests , and Priests without due reverence ; yea Saint Bernard himselfe was glad to write to Hildefonsus Earle of Saint Giles , i ( in whose territories they preached ) to desire the Earle that he would no longer protect them : k the argument brought against these professors , was the same with that which is used at this day : Have our Fathers then erred so long a time ? are so many men deceived ? have these onely the truth ? And so I come to speake of the Waldenses . PAP . What say you to these Waldenses ? were they men of a good life , and sound doctrine ? had they any visible congregations ? had they any lawfull ordination and succession ? were they of any long standing , and continuance ? and if they had ; can you shew that they agreed with you in point of faith and Religion ? PROT. The Waldenses began to shew themselves about the yeere 1160 , saith Gretser the Iesuite , l their adversaries gave them sundry names ; sometimes from the place of their aboade they were called , Pauperes de Lugduno , poore men of Lions a Cittie in France ; sometime Albigenses from the Cittie and Country of Albi ; and usually Waldenses , of their principall teacher , Petrus Waldus . This Waldus was a rich Merchant , and Citizen of Lyons in France , who seeing one fall downe dead in the streete , made so good use of this spectacle of mans frailety , as that he forthwith began to repent , and change his former course of life ; giving almes to the poore : and betaking him to the study of the Scripture , he profited so well therein ; that hee translated divers parts thereof out of Latine into the French tongue , and taught m the same in the Mother tongue , to the people that frequently resorted to him . This doing displeased the Romish Prelates , who were like the dog under the manger , that can neither himself eate the hay , nor yet will let the horse eate it ; so that they raised persecution against Waldus and his followers ; and this persecution was the occasion to spread their doctrine farther abroade , not onely over France , but almost over all the parts of Europe . Now what the Waldenses were , let one of their Inquisitours speake : Rainerius ( whose booke Gretser the Iesuite lately set out among other writers against the Waldenses ) saith ; Amongst all Sects , which are or have formerly beene , none is more pernicious to the Church than that of the Leonists . First , because it continued longer than any other , for some say it hath lasted ever since Pope Silvester ; others say , ever since the Apostles . Secondly , because no Sect is more generall all than this , for there is scarce any Country , in which it is not found . Thirdly , whereas other Sects deterre men with their horrible blasphemies , this Sect of the Leonists , maketh a great shew of godlinesse , because they live righteously before men , and b●leeve all things rightly touching ●od , and concerning all other Articles of the Creed : onely they blaspheme the Roman Church and Clergie , in which thing the Laitie is forward to give credit unto them . PAP . Parsons the Iesuite , and others charge the Waldenses with divers errours and enormities ; so that howsoever in some points they agreed with the Protestants , yet they mainely differ'd from them in other ; so that they cannot both belong to one and the same Church ? PROT. The learned on our sides p have notably cleered the Waldenses from such foule imputations . The first Article Objected . Parsons saith , they held that when the flesh doth burne , that all conjunction with man or woman is lawfull without destinction . The three Conversions , the 3 part . chap. 3 , nu . 12. Answere . Indeed many have borne false witnesse against them , but their witnesse doe not agree together q . I know this is objected by Parsons and others ; and yet Reinerius who was one of their Inquisitors , said of them ( as is already alleaged ) that they made a great shew of Godlines and lived righteously before men , and beleeved all things rightly touching God , and concerning all other Articles of the Creed . Againe , Casti sunt Leonistae ; the Leonist's liue chastly : and againe , Quae libet naturâ turpia devitant : They avoyd whatsoever is naturally dishonest . Claudius Seisselius Archbishop of Turin , a man in great credit under Lewes the twelfth , King of France ; although he had written a booke expresly against the Waldenses , yet he thus farre cleereth them saying ; r that it makes much for the confirmation and toleration of that prof●ssion , that ( setting aside differences in point of Faith ) in other things they welnigh leade a more godly life than other Christians ; for they sweare not unlesse they he constrayned , they seldome take the name of the Lord in vaine , and they are very carefull to keepe their promise . When some of the Cardinalls , and Prelates accused the remainders of the Waldenses in Merindol and Cabriers , that they were Heretickes , sorcerers , and incestuous persons , and thereupon mooved that good King Lewis the twelfth to roote them out : the Waldenses having notice hereof , sent their Deputies to his Majesty to declare unto him their innocencie ; whereupon the Prelates were instant upon the King , not to give such Heretikes any accesse or audience : s but the King answered , that if he were to make warre against the Turke , he would first of all heare him : whereupon the King sent master Adam Fume his Master of Requests , and one Doctor Parvi his confessor , to search and inquire both into their life and religion : the Commissioners accordingly visited those places , and upon their returne related to the King what they had found , namely : that t Infants were baptized , the Articles of faith were taught , the Lords Prayer , the ten Commandements , the Lords day observed , the Word of God Preached , and no shew of wickednesse or fornication to be perceived amongst them , u onely they found not any Images in their Churches , nor any ornaments belonging to the Masse . The King hearing this report of the Commissioners , sayd ( and he bound it with an oath ) that they were better men than he , or his people ; better than himselfe , and the rest of his subjects . And thus we have cleared the Waldenses from Parsons his first imputation : a foule slander indeed , but yet such as we finde x was cast upon the auncient Christians , as well as upon them : and most unjustly and untruely upon both of them . Object . They held , that it was not lawfull for Christians to sweare at all , for any cause whatsoever , because it is written , Doe not sweare , Matthew 5. Iames 5. They held also that the magistrate ought not to condemne any to death , because it is written , Iudge not , Matthew chap. 7. Luke chap. 6. Parsons , loco citato . Answere . Claudius Seissel ( as before is alleadged ) saith indeed that they doe not sweare unlesse they be constrained ; belike then being lawfully called they refuse not to sweare in Iudgement : in triviall matters they would not sweare rashly , according whereunto they alleadged our Saviours precept ; besides , they affirme , y that there are lawfull oathes , tending to the honour of God , and their Neighbours good , and they alleadge that place in the sixth to the Hebrewes , 16. that an oath for confirmation to them is an end of all strife . The other cavill arose upon their complaining , that the magistrates delivered them to death , without any other knowledge of the cause , than the bare report of their Inquisitors , Priests , and Friers , who were parties , and their professed enemies , otherwise the Waldensian doctrine was , z that they were not to suffer the Malefactour to live . Object . They hold that the Apostles Creed is to be contemned , and no account at all to be made of it , and that no other prayer is to be used , but onely the Pater Noster , set downe in Scriptur● . Parsons quò suprà . Answere . This is an idle cavill ; for Reinerius hath already told us , that they beleeve all the Articles contained in the Creed : besides , in their bookes they have very good and Catholike expositions of the Creed . Doe these men then slight the Creed ? They doe not indeed hold the Creede to be a prayer , no more doe they that of the Angels Haile to Mary they hold it to be a salutation , and no direct invocation , as Claudius Seissel saith a it followes not hence , because they hold not the Creede , nor the Angelicall Salutation to be any direct prayer , that therefore they neglect the Creede . The other allegation is as idle , for their owne writers Reyner , and others record divers other of their prayers , as for grace before meate , this : He that blessed the five Barly loaves , and two Fishes , in the Desert to his Disciples , blesse this table unto us ; and after meate , thus : God which hath given us corporall food , give us also spirituall life . Object . They held , that the power of consecrating the body of Christ , and of hearing confessions was left by Christ , not onely to priests , but also to lay-men if they be just . Parsons ibid. Answere . The first part of this Article they held not : but rather the contrary , that neither Priests nor Laikes could consecrate the body of Christ : for Reinerius saith ; b They doe not beleeve the Sacrament to be the true body and blood of Christ , but the bread consecrated is called in a certaine figure the body of Christ , as it is sayd , the Rocke was Christ , and the like . For the second , they sayd truely , and we hold , that we are to confesse our faults one to another , Iames 5 , 16. yea though they be Lay-people , so they be godly and discreet , and able to counsaile and comfort us : but especially to the discreet and learned Minister of Gods Word , to receive from him Ghostly comfort , counsaile , and upon our hearty repentance , absolution . Object . They held , that no Priests must have any living at all , but must live on almes : and that no Bishops or other dignity is to be admitted in the Clergie , but that all must be equall . Parsons ibid. Answere . That their Ministers may not lawfully take and enjoy livings , or that it was sinne so to doe ; they taught not , but were sorry c they had not sufficient stayed livings for them , whereby they might have more time to their studies , and greater opportunity to instruct them with necessary doctrine and knowledge● but they were not ashamed of their Ministers that were content to worke with their hands to get their living , as the Apostles had done before them . So that if they spoke ought that looked that way , it was onely pro hic & nunc , as their case then stood : they were now both pastours and people thrust out of their owne Country , and goods , and glad to live upon others benevolence and collections , which haply made them call them , The poore men of Lions . Howsoever , they were so farre from liking the course of the begging Friers , or vowing of voluntary poverty , as that they held the order of begging Friers● to be the Divels invention d ; and Monkish vowes to bee vaine , as occasioning foule and fearefull lusts e . If they sayd that all Ministers must be equall , they meant in Orders , but not in Iurisdiction , for they allowed Deacons , Presbyters , and Bishops , as Guido Carmelita observes . Object . They held , that Masse is to be sayd once onely every yeare : to wit , upon Maundy Thursday , when the Sacrament was instituted , and the Apostles made Priests . For that Christ sayd , Doe this in remembrance of me ; to wit , ( say they ) that which he did at the time , Luke 22. 1 Cor. 11. Parsons ibid. Answere . Parsons pret●nds to bring no Articles but such as all Authours charge the Waldenses withall , and yet brings this , which no Authour imputes to them , but onely Guido Carmelita ; and Alphonsus de Castro wonders where Guido found it . Aeneas Sylius mentions it not , but contrarily saith , g they hold that the Priest may consecrate in any place , and at any time , and minister to them that require it . Object . They held , that the words of Consecration must be no other , but onely the Pater Noster , seaven times said over the bread . Parsons ibid. Answer . Alponsus de Castro saith . h It is possible that the Waldenses might have had this fancie , but not probable , for onely Guido Carmelita saith it : but Aeneas Sylvius , a farre more diligent man , and of better jud●ement , mentions it not : neither Antoninus nor Bernard of Lutzenburg , ( though they all pro●essedly reckon up their errors ) but rather they say the contrary : that the Waldenses held , that the Priest might consecrate in every place , and time , and minister to them that desire it : and su●ficere ut verba Sacramentalia tantùm dicat ; that it was sufficient to speake the Sacramentall words onely . Object . Prateolus saith i , that the Albingenses held with the Manichees , that there were two prime beginnings , or Authors of things , that is ; one good God , the Creator of good : and one bad , that is , the Divel , the creator of evill ; and that they denyed the resurrection , and thought there was no Hell. Answere . Fryer Reyner their inquisitour saith , they beleeved all the Articles contained in the Creede . And for the other imputation , he that shall but reade the confession of their faith tendred to Ladislaus King of Hungary , and extant in Orthinus Gratius k , will easily cleare them thereof . This cavil is thought to be grounded upon that assertion of the Waldenses , that the Pope had no authoritie over the Kings and Princes of the earth , who depend immediately upon God alone ; and from hence they tooke occasion to call them Manichees , as appointing two prime or cheef originalls & Iurisdictions : and it may seeme to be taken out of the extravagants of Pope Boniface the eight , who subjecting the authority of Emperours , l saith of his owne , Whosoever resists this power , resists the ordinance of God , unlesse with the Manichee he devise du● principia , two prime originalls of things . Now against this imputation , the Waldenses professe , m that they beleeve that the holy Trinity hath created all things visible and invisible , and that he is Lord of things celestiall , terrestriall , and infernall , as it is sayd it Saint Iohn , All things were made by him , and without him nothing is made . Besides it might bee that the Manichees , some of them living amongst the Waldenses , such as spited the Waldenses , by one common terme nick-named them and called them Manich●e●s and Catharists : as sometimes the Donatists , and called n the Christians and Catholikes Caecilianists . By this that hath beene sayd it appeares , that there is not any such oddes betweene the Waldenses and us , as Parsons and Prateolus have given out ; but that for substance of Religion they agree with us ; and accordingly Orthuinus Gratius saith of the confession of the Waldensian faith presented to the King of Hungary , that in some points it little differeth from that which is delivered by others ( he meaneth our Protestant pro●essours ) so as they may see me to have received it from them ; and Le Sieur la Popeli nere in his history of France speakes more fully , namely p ; that the Waldenses and Albigenses , about the yeare 1100 and the succeeding times , spread their doctrine ( parum differentem ) litle differing from that which the Protestants now embrace . Object . It seemeth you sticke close to the Waldenses , and yet your Iewell casts them off , saying ; q they are none of ours ? Answere . The passage in B. Iewell is this ; r Master Harding saith that Hus , Hierome of Prage , Wickleffe , Almarick , Abailard , the Apostolikes , Petrobrussians , Berengarians , Waldenses , Albingenses , Image-breakes , and such like , ever found fault with the Church in their time . Whereunto B. Iewell replyeth in these termes : of Abailard , and Almarick , and certaine other your strange names , if they have taught any thing contrary to the truth of God , we have no skill , they are none of ours ; of Iohn Hus , Hierome of Prague , and Berengarus : and other like vertuous learned men , we have no cause to be ashamed : their doctrine standeth still , and increaseth dayly , because it is of God. And elsewhere he saith , s As for Iohn Wickleffe , Iohn Husse , Valdo , and the rest , for ought we know , and I beleeve setting malice aside , for ought you know , they were godly men ; their greatest heresie was this : that they complained of the dissolute lives of the Clergie , of worshipping of Images , of the tyrannicall pride of the Pope , of Pardons , pilgrimages , and purgatory , and that they wished a reformation of the Church : we succeede not them , nor beare their names ; we succeede him whose word we professe . By this it appeares what Bishop Iewell thought of Wald● and others : and if he had cast off the Waldenses as none of ours , it might be imputed to this , that he beheld them as their persecutors painted them out with spots of Manicheisme , and other vile errours . PAP . If the Waldenses were free from such errours as Parsons , and others have taxed them withall : how came it to passe that such grosse opinions were fathered on them ? PROT. You say well , they be fathered on them , even as sometime a light housewife layes her burthen at an honest mans doore : but themselves never begat such strange opinions ; for the Waldenses in their confessions say t , That they were nothing at all guilty of those things that were layd to their charge . That worthy Historian Thuanus reckons up their opinions , and then addeth u ; To these certaine and chiefe heads of their doctrine ( alia afficta ) others others were fained and devised , concerning marriage , Resurrection , the state of soules after death , and of meates . Bernard de Girard , Lord of Haillan , saith ; Although they had some ill opinions , yet they did not so much stirre up the hatred of the Pope and great Princes against them , as their freedome in speech which they used in blaming and reproving the vices , dissolute manners , life , and actions , of Princes , Ecclesiasticall persons , and the Pope himselfe : this was the chiefe thing which drew the hatred of all upon them , this caused many wicked opinions to be devised , and fathered on them , from which they were very free and guiltlesse . PAP . You say divers opinions were fained of them , what then were their owne Tenets ? PROT. What they taught in particular may be gathered by that which the Hussites in Bohemia , their ●chollers held , for as A●neas Sylvius , afterwards Pope recordeth , the Hussites embraced the opinions of the Waldenses : now their opinions are thus , set downe by An●as Sylvius y one of their backe friends . They held , other Bishops to be equall with the Bishop of Rome . That prayers for the dead and Purgatory , were devised by the Priests , for their owne gaine . That the Images of God and Saints , were to be defaced . That Confirmation and extreame unction were no Sacraments . That it is in vaine to pray to the Saints in heaven , since they cannot helpe us . That Auricular confession was a trifling thing . That it was not meritorious to keepe the set fasts of the Church , and that such a set number of Canonicall houres in praying were vaine . That Oyle and Chrisme was not to be used in Baptisme . These with divers other were the Tenets of the Waldenses . PAP . Suppose the Waldenses had fully agreed with you in matter of Religion● yet Waldo was a Lay-man z , and so wanted calling , and could not confere it on others . PROT. Why might not a Lay-man by private exhortation , perswade others to the Christian faith ? We finde in the Church-story , that a Tyrian Philosopher arriving in India , was slaine by the Barbarians with all his company , except two children which were gone out of the ship , and were learning their lessons under a tree ; these children were brought up by the King , and advanced by him , the one to be his Steward , and the other called Frumentius , became his Secretary . Afterward , the King dying , and leaving his sonne in in his non-age , Frumentius a●●isted the Queene in the government of the Kingdome : whiles Frumentius was in authority , he enquired among the Roman Merchants for Christians , he shewed the Christians all favour , and procured them assemblies for prayer , and the service of God. When the King came to age , they delivered him the Kingdome , and Frumentius went to Alexandria to Athanasius , and told him what was done , desiring him to send some worthy Bishop to those multitudes of Christians : Athanasius thinking Frumentius a fit person , ordained him Bishop , and sent him into India , to convert more soules . Hereby we see , that this Lay-secretary was the first meanes of converting the Barbarians : and why might not Waldus of France , doe the like ? Besides , though Waldus himselfe were a Lay-man , yet the Waldenses might have Bishops , and Pastors . Mathew Paris saith b , the Albingenses were so powerfull in the parts of Bulgaria , Croatia , and Dalmatia , that they also drew Bishops , besides many others of those regions , to their parties ; yea the Popes Legat that was sent in commission against the Albigenses , complaines that they had a Bishop of their owne , called Bartholmew , who cons●crated Churches , and ordained Bishops and Ministers . PAP . Waldus and his followers were but simple , c and unlearned men , ( Valdenses fuerunt homines Idiotae , & prorsus ignorantes . Castreul . tit . miraculum . ) PROT. What then ? God hath chosen the foolish and weake things of the World , to confound the wise , 1 Cor. 1.27 . And we reade in the Church history of a Philosopher , that could not bee overcome by any Arguments , but troubled the councell of Nice , and yet was converted by a simple Bishop . Ruffin . eccles . Hist. li. 1. cap. 3. Againe , it is untrue that Waldus was utterly unlearned : for Reiner the Inquisitour saith d ; that Waldus being tollerably learned , taught those that resorted to him , the Text of the New Testament in their mother tongue : and the same Reiner ( who was often present at their examinations ) witnesseth e that they had above forty schooles , and divers Churches ; all within one diocesse ; so that they had the ordinary meanes of knowledge . Yea they were of that abilitie that they had divers conferences and disputations with the Romists , and one famous one at Mount-royall in France , where they encountered Saint Dominick and others , and maintained these positions ; f that the Church of Rome was not the holy Church , nor spouse of Christ , but Babylon the mother of abhomination : that the Masse was not ordained by Christ nor his Apostles , but was an Invention of men . This disputation held for divers dayes , and the Waldenses had the better , had not Saint Dominicks sword proved sharper than his sillogisme , cutting off more men than arguments ; for now ( as Platina saith ) g the matter was not carried by force of argument , but by force of armes , PAP . Though you shew us the Waldensians agreement with you , their calling , succession and ordination ; yet you are never a whit the neerer , because their number might bee few , and them few scattered and dispersed , so that they had not any visible congregations . PROT. Concerning the Waldenses , and the visibility of their assemblies , both in France and elsewhere , the matter is cleere , even by your owne witnesse . Rainerius saith , ( as is already alleadged ) that of all Sects which either are or have beene , none hath beene mo●● pernicious to the Church ( he meaneth the Church of Rome ) than that of the Leonists . First , for the long continuance thereof ; for some say it hath continued from the time of Silvester , ( who was Bishop of Rome about the yeare of Christ three hundred and sixteene ) others say , from the time of the Apostles . Secondly , for the generality , for there is almost no Country into which this Sect hath not entred : the French historian saith h , that the Waldenses about the yeare 1100 , and in the succeeding times , spread abroad their doctrine , little differing from that which at this day the Protestants embrace , not onely through all France , but almost through all the Countries of Europe also . For the French , Spanish , English , Scots , Italians , Germans , Bohemians , Saxons , Polonians , and Lituanians , and other Nations have obstinately defended it to this day . Mathew Paris the Monke of Saint Albans hath already told us that they were growne so powerfull in Bulgaria , Croatia , and Dalmatia , that among many others they drew some Bishops to their partie . And there were such multitudes of them apprehended in France , that the Archbishops of Aix , Arles , and Narbonne assembled at Avignion ( anno Dom. 1228 ) about the difficulties of the executions of those which the Dominican Fryers had accused , said plainely : there were so many apprehended , that it was not possible to defray the charge of their feeding , nor to finde enough lime and stone to build prisons for them : when they came to wage warre with their enemies , they were so powerfull , that they brought an hundred thousand fighting men into the field ; and were then very likely to have utterly overthrowne Simon Montfort , Generall of the Papall armie , had not the unexpected death of the King of Arragon ( intercepted by ambush ) quite discouraged and dissolued the Albigenses army . Besides , if the Waldenses had not had any visible assemblies , what needed such councels & consultations , conferences & disputations , inquisitions and examinations , bans and excommunications against them ? They set up the order of Dominican and Franciscan Friers to preach against them ; they leavied forces of Pilgrimes Cruciferi or crossed souldiers , to fight against them ; they published their Croysadoes , promised their pardon of sinnes , and remission of pennance enjoyned , to as many as would take up the badge of the crosse , and weare it on their coate-armour , and goe against the Waldenses , as against Sarracens and Infidels . Now sure had the Waldenses beene but some few , dispersed and meane persons , they needed no such stirre to suppresse them . But we finde , that they used all possible meanes for to quell them ; Pope Inncent the third about the yeere 1180 , called a a solemne Councell at Lateran against them : Caelestine the third in the yeare 1197 confirmed m the order of the Cruciferi , or crossed souldiers , and they were to warre against them . The Monke of Auxerre in France saith , n That the Pope sent his Bulls farre and neere , and granted them pardon of sinnes , and absolution of pennance , to such as should serve in his warres against the Waldenses . About this time was the holyhouse of Inquisition set up by Pope Innocent the third , and the mastership thereof committed o first to Frier Reiner and Guido , and afterwards to Saint Dominicke and his order . Eymericus hath given certaine directions p to the Inquisitors and Commissioners , and Francis Pegna hath glossed upon them : and there were lately to be seene the severall consultations q of the Bishops and Lawyers of France , in what sort they were to proceed against the Waldenses . And the Monk of Newborrow tels us r , that when the Waldenses came into England , ( under the name of Catharist's or Publicans ) there was strict charge given , under paine of excommunication , that none should receive , harbour , or keepe them within their houses , liberties , or territories : nor to have any commerce or manner of dealing with them ; and if any of that sect dyed in that state , that upon no termes , they should have any prayer or Christian buriall ; but they saved them a labour of buriall : for Caesarius saith s that at the taking of La-vail there were foure hundred of them burnt , and the rest hanged ; and the like execution done in divers other places ; and namely at Vaurcastle , where after they had strangled the Governour Aimerius , they stoned to death the Lady Girard , the Popes Legats not sparing ( as Thuanus t saith ) any Sexe at all . Now all this they patiently endured , so that as Altissidore saith u , the beholders were astonied , to see them goe so cherefully to their death , and withall to exhort one another to abide the fierie tryall . PAP . There might be great numbers of the Waldenses , and them of the meaner sort . PROT. That is not so ; for Du Haillan saith x , that many Noble and worthy men tooke part with them , even to the hazzarding of their lives and estates , namely ; the Earles of Tholouse , of Cominges , of Bigorre , of Carmain , of Foix , as also the King of Arragon : for Remond had marryed Ioane once Queene of Sicilie , sister to Iohn King of England , by whom he had a sonne called also Remond ; & after the decease of Ioane he married Elenor , sister of Peter King of Arragon ; so that he was strong in affinity , and confederacy besides , that he had ( as one saith y ) as many citties and castles , and townes , as the yeere hath dayes . By the way we may observe , that considering the neere alliance which was betweene the Earle of Tholouse , and his brother in law the King of England : as also the Earles lands lying so neere to Guienne then in the possession of the Engl●sh ; hence I say we may observe , that this made the way more easie to communicate the doctrine and profession of the Waldenses unto their neighbou●s of the English Nation . PAP . You tell us of great troupes of the Waldenses ; and yet they had but bad successe . PROT. We must not measure the lawfulnesse of warre by the issue ; nor judge the cause by the event . The eleven Tribes of Israel were appointed by God himselfe to goe and fight against the Benjamites ; the Israelites were moe in number than the Benjamites , and had the better cause ; and yet the Israelites were twice overcome by the Benjamites : so King Lewis of France fighting against the Turke , his army was scattered , and himselfe dyed of the Plague . ●esides , you have little reason to stand on the successe of this warre ; It is true indeed that their chiefe Cittties Tholouse and Avignion were taken , and the King of Arragon was slaine in the Waldensian warre ; but so also was Simon Montfort Generall of the Popes army ; he was slaine , like Abimelech ( Iudges 9 ) with a stone cast out of a sling , or engine ; and the same supposed to be ●lung or darted by a woman b . And as for King Lewis he dyed at the siege of Avignion , and ( as Math●w Paris saith c ) sustained great losses by a terrible plague , strong and venemous flyes , and great waters devouring , and drowning his army ; so that there were two and twenty thousand French slaine and drowned during that seige . Lastly , the Waldenses had no such ill successe ; for though themselves were persecuted , yet their doctrine was thereby communicated to others , and spread abroad throughout the world . PAP . You make as if the Pope had dealt ill with the Albingenses ; but they dealt ill with him : for the Earle of Tholouse , or some of his subjects killed the Popes Legat Frier Peter de Casteaneuff : and this was it that stirred up the Pope . PROT. This was but a colour of the warre , and an untruth : when the Popes Legat charged the Earle with this fact , his answere was ; d that he was no way culpable of the Fryers death ; that there were many witnesses of the death of the sayd Monke , slaine at S. Giles , by a certaine Gentleman , whom the said Monke pursued , who presently retired himself to his friends at Be●caire : that this murther was very displeasing to him , and therefore he had done what lay in his power to apprehend him , and to chastise him ; but that he escaped his hands ; that had it beene true which they layd to his charge , and that he had beene guilty of the fact , yet the ordinary courses of justice were to be taken against him , and not to have wracked their anger upon his subjects , that were innocent in this case . In the end he was forced to confesse that he was guilty of the murder , onely because it was committed within his territories : so that he was glad to doe pennance , and that in a strange sort , for the Legat put a stole about his necke ( such as Priests use to weare ) and having his head , feete , and shoulders bare , he led him by the sayd stole , and made him goe nine times about the grave of the deceased Fryer , scourging him with rods ; which the Legat had in his hand , as long as he went about the sayd Sepulcher , the Earle to get himselfe out of the Legats hand , went to Rome , and was there absolved by the Pope : upon his returne , the Legat refused to restore him , but renewed the excommunication against him e , not as being guilty of the death of the sayd Monke , but because he had not driven the Albigenses out of his Country ; as he was bound by promise . The Earle seeing the Legats dealing , strengthneth himselfe with his Allies and Confederates , and so they fell to open hostility . Lewis the sonne of Philippus Augustus , was signed with the crosse on his military Cassocke , and strongly beseiged Avignion one of the Earles chiefe Citties ; swearing f , that he would not depart thence , till hee had taken the Towne : but he was glad to goe aside to an● Abby not farre distant , to avoyde the Pestilence , whereon hee shortly after dyed : the Legat the more easily to winne the Cittie , kept secret the Kings death , and despairing to prevaile by force , attempted to doe it by fraud . He cunningly perswaded the Citty to send unto him twelve of their Cittizens to conferre upon some good conditions , giving them his oath for their safe returne , protesting and swearing g , that he prolonged the seige for no other end , but for the good of their soules : but wh●n the gates were opened to receive them so returning , his army rushed in , and t●oke the gate , and finally the Citty , contrary to his oath given . Thus the Cittie of Avignion , which could not be taken in three monethes seige and assault by the power of the King of France , was easily taken by the fraud and perjury of the Popes Legat. Mathew Paris , the Monke of Saint Albanes , tells us what others thought of these proceedings : it seemed unto many a great wrong ( saith he h ) to trouble a faithfull Christian thus , who earnestly entreated the Legat to examine the faith of his people : and if any Citty held out against the Catholike faith , he would make them give satisfaction ; and be punished as the Church should thinke fit ; and for himselfe he offered , to give an account of his faith ; but ( as Mathew Paris saith i ) the Legat nothing at all regarded these offers , but sleigted them ; nothing would satisfie him unlesse the Earle would re●igne and quit claime his lands and his territories , pro se & haeredibus suis ; for himselfe and his Heyres for ever ; and accordingly they were given to Simon Montfort , for service done and to be done to the Church . PAP . You must shew the continuance of your Waldenses , as well as their numbers and multitude : but that I thinke you cannot doe , for now it seemeth they were rooted out . PROT. Indeed that was strongly attempted : Saint Dominick spent ten yeeres amongst the Tholousians ; k and he , and Didacus a Spanish B. marched against the Land of the Albigenses , the Fryers , Preached , the Inquisitours ploted , the Princes warred against them ; and the Popes they accursed their persons , and interdicted their lands ; tolli tamen non poterant , saith Paulus Aemylius l ; and yet for all that the Pope could doe , they could not be suppressed ; and yet the Pope condemned both the Humiliati , and the poore men of Lyons ; ( for so they nicknamed them . ) Iohn de Serres in his Inventory of the Historie of France , m tells us out of a Manuscript , that as the Pope would have continued his persecution against them , and that the Marshall de la Foy ( so called for that he was as it were the cheefe champion of the immortall warre decreed against the Albingenses ) prepared for a new s●arch to roote out the remainders : Lewis would not allow of it , saying : that they must perswade them by reason , and not constraine them by force , whereby many families were preserved in these provinces . By this wee see some reason given of their preservation and continuance● and Thuanus a noble , and unpartiall historian , sometime president of the Court of Parliament in France , directs us to the place of their aboade , and habitation . Though the Waldenses , ( saith Thuanus n ) were tossed from post to pillar , ( as they say ) yet there were ever some found , who in their severall courses have revived and renewed their doctrine buried as it were for a season ; and such were Iohn Wickliffe in England , Iohn Hus in Bohemia , Ierome of Prague , and in our dayes Martin Luther : so that reliquiae eorum , the remnant and remainder of their doctrine and profession began to be kindly entertained and countenanced by many , at Martin Luthers comming : specially towards the Alpes , and the provinces thereunto adjoyning . The same Authour saith o ; that after the Waldenses were overcome by force of armes , they retired into Provence , and towards the Alpes ; and in those pla●s , they sought out some shelter for their life , and profession of doctrine : some of them went into Calabria , where they continewed a long time , even unto the dayes of Pope Pius the fourth , ( anno 1560 ) some of them went into Germany , and Bohemia , and there set up their rest : others of them came Westward into Brittaine and there tooke Sanctuary and harbour : and ●here I leave them , and come to Saint Bernard . In this age ●lourished that devout Father Saint Bernard , who in divers maine points of Religion held with us . He beleeved Iustification by faith alone , saying p . Let him beleeve in thee who justifiest the ungodly , & ●ei●g justified ●y faith only , he shall haue pe●ce with God. He disclaimed Iustification by workes ; for he accounted no better of mens best actions , as they proceed from man , than of a menstruous cloath q , according to that of the Prophet , All our righteousnesse is as filthy clouts . Indeed he held good workes to bee the meanes by , but not the causes why ; to be the Kings High●way to eternall life r , but not to be any proper cause of salvation . Now the high way is not the cause , that makes a man come to his journeyes end ; the way is but the meanes , the motion is the cause . He left his owne Inherent , and layd hold on Christs righteousnesse imputed to us , saying : s What , shall I sing of mine owne righteousnesse ? No Lord , I will remember thy righteousnesse alone ; for that is mine too ; thou art made unto me of God , righteousnesse ; should I feare that it will not serve us both ? It is not a short Cloake , such as cannot cover two ; thy large & everlasting mercie , shall fully cover both thee and me : in me it covers a multitude of sinnes ; in thee Lord , what can it cover , but the treasures of pietie , and riches of bounty ? Concerning free will Saint Bernard reporteth , t that whiles he commended Gods free grace which prevented , promoted , and ( as he hoped ) would perfect the good worke begun in him , some that stood by r●plyed , what is it then that you doe ? what reward can you looke for , if God doe all ? and these and such like Pelagian speeches of some Monkes , occasioned him to write his treatise of Grace and free will , wherein he ( denying such freewill as many Popish schoolemen teach ) ascribes the whole originall power of good , in the consent of the will unto grace , saying ; u That the good which we doe , is not partly Gods ; but it is to be ascribed wholly unto God. He disclaimed humane satisfactions , saying ; x Who will murmure and say , we labour too much , fast too much ; since we are unable to d●scharge the thousandth , nay not the least part of our debts ? He held that man was unable to keepe the Law ( in perfection according to Gods Commandements ) Neither ( saith he y ) was the commander ignorant , that the weight of the Commandement exceeded mans strength , but he judged it to be profitable , thereby to put them in mind of their owne insufficiencie : so that God by commanding things impossible ( to us ) did not thereby make man a transgressour , but humbled him , to the intent , that we receiving the Law , and feeling our owne wants , might call to heaven , and the Lord might helpe us . And to the same purpose he elsewhere saith ; z God hath therefore commanded his precepts to be observed exceedingly , or to the full , that we beholding our imperfection , and falling short , and finding that we are unable to fulfill that which we ought , may fly to his mercy . He held certainety of Salvation , saying ; a that a just , man by the testimonie of the Holy Spirit within him , may be assured of grace . Bernard likewise held , that our workes doe not merit ( condignely , ) and herein he is most direct and punctuall against all Popish merit-mongers . Dangerous ( saith he ) b is the dwelling of them that trust in their owne merits ; dangerous , b●caus● ruinous . And , c This is the whole merit of man , if he put all his trust in him who saveth the whole man. Againe , the merits of men are not such ( saith he ) as that eternall life is due to them of right ; d or as if ●od should doe wrong , if he did not yeeld the same unto them ; and he giveth a reason hereof : because all merits are Gods gifts , and so man is rather a debter to God for them , than God to men ; for what are all merits to so ●reat a glory ? Indeed he elsewhere telleth us of his merits , but they be Christs ; and these we doe willingly embrace with Saint Bernard and apply them to our selves ; his words are these . Therefore my merit is the mercy of the Lord . I am not poore in merit , so long as he is not poore in mercie ; and if the mercies of the Lord be many , my merits also are many otherwise , S. Bernard renounced al confidence of his owne merit , reposing his soule on that imputative Iustice , ( which is without man ) even the merit of Christ , as in that al-sufficient satisfaction , saying f ; I am not worthy I confesse , neither can I by my owne merits , obtaine the kingdome of heaven , but rest upon that interest , which I have in the merits of Christs passion . Now what could be spoken more Protestant-like ? and yet thus spake Bernard of himselfe . And in this sweete meditation the devout Father closed his life , as the reporter thereof hath left recorded . Now besides these Articles already mentioned ( which are weighty ones ) Bernard was no universall T●ent Papist : neither held he divers points which your Trent Counsell hath established for foundamentall ; and namely , the doctrine of Transubstantiation of which he is altogether silent , even there where he was likeliest to treate of it , if he had then knowne it for Catholike doctrine : yea he there delivereth that which makes against it g . He taught also that the Eucharist was a commemorative sacrifice onely : h insomuch as alleadging those words , Do this in remembrance of me : he men●ioneth no reall sacrifice of ●hrists body and blood , such as is made in the Masse , but a thankefull remembrance of his death and passion . Indeed S. B●rnard in that Sermon of the Lords Supper , if it be his , ( for Bellarmie saith , it is nothing like S. Bernards s●ile ) speakes l of the Priests holding his God and reaching him forth to others ; as also of touching God with their hand , with their mouth , and hearing him speake unto them . Now as the Priest heareth Christ speake unto him , so he holdeth Ch●ist in his hand ; but the Priest heareth not Christ speake verily and indeed , but in a certaine peculiar manner , and forme of speech , therefore he holds not Christ in his hand really and indeed , but after a sort : for a straine of Rhetoricall amamplification , he is sayd to hold God , that holdeth any thing specially pertaining to God. Besides , hee held the sufficiencie of the Scriptures without Traditions ; for writing unto a Covent of Abbots , he requireth m such a Councell , wherein the traditions of men are not obstinately defended , but which doth diligently and humbly enquire what is the good and perfect will of God : and elsewhere hee saith , n that the Word of God is all in all . He held habituall Concupiscence to be a sinne , saying ; o That kinde of sin which so often troubles us ( I meane our concupiscence and evill desires ) ought indeed to be repressed . Besides , he never taught adoration of Images , hee held not the precise number of seaven Sacraments ; he stood against the opinion of the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin Marie q , and the like Tenets which be Articles of Faith with you . In a word , he plainely confessed , r that the Roman Church was degenerate from the auncient religion . And this may suffise to shew what religion S. Bernard professed : if any man desire to see more testimonies , he may finde them in Master Pankes Collectanea , out of Saint Gregorie the Great , and S. Bernard the devout , shewing that in most foundamentall points they are ours . PAP . Well , but I challenge Saint Bernard for one of our side . PROT. I have showne already , that he was ours on the surer side : he was indeed a Monke , and in some things superstitious ; and no mervaile , since he lived in a later age , above a thousand yeares after Christ , what time as errours crept into the Church , which hee might sucke in from the age wherein he lived ; neverthelesse , he was sound in the principall points of Religion : for other things wee defend him not ; since as your owne Proverbe goes , Bernardus non vidit omnia , even holy Bernard had his blemishes . Yet since he held the foundation of Iustification by Faith onely in Christ , and disclaimed his owne merits : though otherwise his hay and stubble s of praying to Saints , and such like stuffe , as cannot endure the fire of the Holy Ghosts triall , doe burne and consume ; yet since he kept close to the foundation , wee doubt not but his soule is safe , and rests with the Lord , God pardoning his errours , and ignorances , which , he being carryed with the streame of the time , tooke up , as they were delivered to him , without scanning or examining them . The like may be sayd of Bede , Gregorie , and others , that holding Christ the foundation a right , and groaning under the weight of mens Traditions , humane satisfactions , and the like popish trash ; they by unfained repentāce for their errours & lapses knowne , and unknowne , and by an assured faith in their Saviour , did finde favour with the Lord : these and the like , we hold to be Gods servants , and propter meliorem & saniorem partem , by reason of their better and sounder part , to be with us , lively members of the true Church , though in some things they were mistaken ; and that they may be termed professours of our faith , inasmuch as the denomination is to be taken from the better part , and not alwayes from the greater : For example sake , there is much water , and little wine mixed in a glasse , yet it is called a glasse of wine ; so say we of professors , S. Bernard and such like , there is in them some bad parts , some superstition , and Poperie ; and some good , in that they hold Christ Iesus the foundation aright ; in this case they may in respect of their better part , be termed and denominated true professors ; and therefore you must give us againe Saint Bernard with others , to whō you have no right or claime , unlesse it be to their errours which they suckt in from the corrupt breasts of some of your side : and so I proceed to the severall points in question . Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie and Canon . Saint Bernard ( as wee heard ) approveth t such a Councell , wherein the Traditions of men are not obstinately defended , but the revealed will of God enquired after : for that , u this is all in all . Claudius Seyssel Archbishop of Turin in Piedmont , ( one that was Neighbour to the Waldenses , and laboured to enforme himselfe touching their positions , and also to confute them ) saith x , that they admitted onely the text of the old and new Testaments : so that they denyed unwritten traditions to be the Rule of Faith. Petrus Cluniacensis , after he had reckoned up the canonicall bookes , saith y ; There are besides the authenticall bookes , sixe other not to be rejected , as namely , Iudith , Tobias , Wisedome , Ecclesiasticus , and the two bookes of Macchabees , which though they attaine not to the high dignitie of the former , yet they are received of the Church , as containing necessary and profitable doctrine . Hugo de Sancto victore saith z ; All the Canonicall bookes of the old Testament are twentie two : there are other bookes also ( as namely ) the Wisedome of Salomon , the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach ; the bookes of Iudith , Tobias , and the Machabees ; which are read but not written in the Canon . The Bible was translated into English some hundred yeares ( as it is probably conjectured ) before Wickliffs translation came forth ; a coppie of which auncient translation my selfe have seene in our Queenes Colledge Librarie in Oxford ; in the praeface whereof it may be seene , that the translatour held the controverted bookes for Apocrypha ; for thus he saith : what ever booke of the Old Testament is out of these ( he maketh the same ●anon with us ) twentie five before sayd , shall be set among Apocrypha : that is , without authoritie of beleefe . Therefore the booke of Wisedome , Ecclesiasticus , Iudith and Tobie , bee not of beleefe . Hierome saith all this sentence in the prologue on the first booke of Kings ; now if at that time the above sayd bookes had beene accounted Authenticall by the Church , and of beleefe , he would have sayd ; but this opinion of Hieromes is not approved by the Church , as Doctor Iames hath well observed . Of Communion under both kinds , and number of Sacraments . HVgo de Sancto victore giveth a reason of the entire communicating in both kinds : Therefore ( saith he ) b the Sacrament is taken in both kindes , that thereby a double effect might be signified : For it hath force , as S. Ambrose saith , to preserve both body and soule . Gratian rehearseth c many ancient Canons and constitutions for communicating in both kinds . Saint Bernard , in his third Sermon on Palme Sunday , maketh the Sacrament of Christs body and blood the Christians foode . Touching the Sacrament of Christs body and blood , ( saith he d ) there is no man who knoweth not that this so singular a food was on that day first exhibited , on that day cōmended , and cōmanded to be frequently received . Saint Bernards words have reference to the Institution of Christ : now at our Saviours last Supper there was Wine as well as Bread , and Bernard treating thereof saith it was commanded to be frequently received ; now if the whole Church were enjoyned so to doe , then also is every particular beleever who is of age , & fitted thereunto , enjoyned to receive it accordingly . The precise number of seaven Sacraments was not held for catholike doctrine , no not in the Church of Rome , untill more than a thousand yeares after Christ ; this is ingenuously confessed by Cassander . Vntill the dayes of Peter Lombard ( who lived about the yeere 1145 ) you shall scarce finde any authour ( saith their Cassander ) who set downe any certaine and definite number of Sacraments ; neither did all the schoolemen call all those s●ven , proper Sacraments : but this is without all controversie ( saith the same Cassander f ) that there are two chiefe Sacraments of our Salvation : that is to say ; Baptisme and the Lords Supper , and so speake Rupertus , and Hugo de Sancto victore , and he saith true ; for Rupertus g putteth the question , and asketh Which be the chiefe sacraments of our salvation ? and hee answereth , Baptisme , and the Supper of the Lord. Of the Eucharist . IN this age ●ratian the Monke affoordeth us a notable testimony against transubstātiatiō ; his cōparison is thus drawne ; This holy bread is after its manner called the body of Christ , as the offering thereof by the hands of the Priest is called Christs passion ; now the Priests oblation is not properly and literally in strict termes and sence , the passion of Christ ; but as the Glosse hath it , the Sacrament representing the body of Christ , is therefore called Christ's flesh , not in verity of the thing , but in a mystery ( namely ) as the representation of Christ therein is called his Passion . Gratians words are these h . As the heavenly bread , which is Christ's flesh , after a sort is called Christ's body , whereas indeed it is the Sacrament of his body ; and the sacrificing of the flesh of Christ , which is done by the Priest's hands , is sayd to be his passion , not in the truth of the thing , but in a signifying mistery . I●annes Semeca who was the first that glossed upon Gratians decrees , telleth us how this comparison is to be meant . This Sacrament ( saith the Glosse i ) because it doth represent the flesh of Christ , is called the Body of Christ , but improperly , not in the truth of the thing , but in the mysticall sence , to wit , it is called the Body of ●hrist , that is , it signifieth his Body . From these premisses we inferre , that after consecration , the Sacrament is not in truth Christ's Body , but onely in a signifying mystery● rei veritas , the truth of the thing , as it is opposed to significans mysterium , a signifying mystery , simply excludes the reality of the thing ; for it is all one , as if he had sayd , that it is there onely in a signifying mystery ; as also in saying it is there suo modo , after a sort onely , he implieth , that it is not there truely , or in the truth of the thing , visibly or invisibly . So that these words of Gratian , drawne from Saint Austin , and Prosper , seconded by the Glosse , and inserted into the body of the Cannon law , confirmed by Pope Gregorie the thirteenth , make strongly against the reall presence of Christ's body , under the Accidents of Bread and Wine , as my learned friend Master Doctor Featly made it appeare in his first dayes Conference with Master Musket , touching Transubstantiation k . Besides , there were divers in this age , who employed both their tongues and their pennes in defence of this truth . Zacharias Chrysopolitanus saith l ; that there were some , perhaps many , but hardly to bee discerned and noted , that thought still , as Berengarius did , whom they then condemned , scorning not a little the ●olly of them that say , the appearing accidents of Bread and Wine after the conversion , doe hang in the ayre , or that the sences are deceived . Rupertus saith m ; It is not to be concealed , that there are diverse , though hardly to be discerned , and noted , which are of opinion , and defend the same both by word and writing : that the Fathers under the Law did eate and drinke the very Bread and Wine , which wee receive in the Sacrament of the Altar . And hee saith they grounded their opinion upon that of the Apostle 1 Cor. 10.3.4 . They did all eate the same spirituall meate , and did all drinke of the same spirituall drinke ( for they dranke of the spiritual rock that followed them : and the rocke was Christ. ) and the same Rupert addeth , that the Church tollerated this diversity of opinion touching the sacrament of the Eucharist , for so he saith in his seaventh booke ; whence we may observe that forsomuch as the Fathers under the Law did eate of the same Christ in Manna that we doe in the Sacrament of the Supper , and yet did not , nor could not eate him carnally , who was not then borne , nor had flesh : we also in our Sacrament can have no such fleshly communication with Christ as some imagine . And whereas Bellarmine replyes n , that the Fathers received the same among themselves , but not the same with us Christians ; he is controlled by Saint Austine , who saith it was the same which we eate ; the corporall food indeed was diverse , but the spirituall meate was the same ; they eate of the same spirituall meate . Of Images and Prayer to Saint . Nicetas Choniates , a Greeke historian reports in the life and reigne of Isaac Angelus one of the Easterne Emperours , that when Fredericke Emperour of the West made an expedition into Palestina , the Armenians did gladly receive the Almaines , because among the Almaines and Armenians , the worshipping of Images was forbidden alike . Claudius S●yssell , and Claudius Coussord r , both which wrote against the Waldenses , reckon up this , among the Waldensian errours , that they denyed the placing of Images in Churches , or worshipping of them . Gratian saith , that question is mooved , whether the deceased doe know what the living heere on earth doe , and withall he addeth , how that the Prophet in the person of the afflicted Israelites saith ; Abraham our father is ignorant of us , and Israell knoweth us not , Esay 63 , 16. and h●rein Gratian followed Saint Austine t who maketh the same inference upon that place of Scripture . Gratians resolution , in this point is farther layd downe by the Glosse in those termes u . Gratian mooveth a certaine incident question ; whether the dead know the things that are done in this world by the living ? and he answereth that they doe not ; and this he proveth by the authority of Esay ( viz. Esay 63.16 . ) the Master of the Sentences saith x ; It is not incredible , that the soules of the Saints , that delight in the secrets of Gods countenance , in beholding the same , see things that are done in the world below . Hugo de Sancto victore leaveth it doubtfull whether the Saints doe heare our prayers or not , and rejecteth that saying of Gregorie , brought to prove that they doe , qui videt videntem omnia , videt omnia ; hee that seeth him who seeth all things , seeth all things : hee confesseth ingenuously saying , I presume not to determin this matter ●arther than thus , that they see so much as it pleaseth him whom they see , and in whom they see what soever they see : and he saith , it is a hard taske to decide these points ; and withall thus debateth the matter . Yea z , but thou wilt reply : If they heare me not , I doe but waste words in v●ine , in making intercession unto them , that doe neither heare ●nor understand . Be it so , Saints heare not the words of those that call unto them : well ; nor is it pertinent to their blessed estate , to be made acquainted with what is done on earth , admit that they doe not heare at all : doth not God therefore heare ? If he heare thee , why art thou sollicitous then what they heare , and how much they heare , seeing it is most certaine that God heareth unto whom thou prayest ? he seeth thy humility , and will reward thy pietie and devotion : so that in effect , Hugo makes it not any materiall thing or of necessity to pray unto Saints . Rupertus , upon those Words of our Saviour , Whatsoever ye shall aske the Father in my Name , he will give it yo● ; Iohn 16.22 . sa●th , that it is the wholesome custome , and Rule of the Catholicke Church , to direct her prayers to God the Father through Iesus Christ our Lord , because there is no other way nor passage but by him ; and againe , we need no other chariot save onely the name of Iesus to carry and convey our prayers into heaven . Claudius Seyssel saith b the Waldenses held that it was in vaine to pray to the Saints , and that it was superstition for to worship and adore them . Of Faith and Merit . c SAint Bernard beleeved Iustification by Faith alone , saying ; Let him beleeve in thee who justifiest the ungodly ; and being justified by Faith onely , he shall have peace with God. Rupertus saith d , that the obstinate Iew sleights the Faith of Iesus Christ , which alone is able to justifie him , and seekes to be saved by his owne workes . Rupertus saith , e that God hath freely called us by the ministery of his Word , unto the state of Salvation , and justified us by the gracious pardon of our sinnes , not upon any precedent merits of ours . Saint Bernard likewise held ( as we have showne ) that our workes doe not merit ( condignely : ) and herein he is most direct and punctuall . The merits of men are not such ( saith he f ) as that eternall life is due to them of right : or as if God should doe wrong , if he did not yeeld the same unto them ; and he giveth a reason hereof , because all merits are Gods gifts , and so man is rather a debter to God for them , than God to men , for what are all merits to so great a glory ? Bernard indeed elsewhere telleth us of his owne merit ; but it is the Lords mercy which he calleth his merit . Therefore my merit is the mercy of the Lord : I am not poore in merit , so long as he is not poore in mercy ; and if the mercies of the Lord be many , my merits also are many . THE THIRTEENTH CENTVRIE from the yeere of Grace one thousand two hundred , to one thousand three hundred . PAPIST . WHat say you of this Age ? PROTESTANT . In this age Sophistrie began to encroach upon Divinitie ; Aristotle and the Philo●ophers were as much studied as Saint Pauls Epistles ; Gratian and Lombard were as oft mentioned in the Schooles , as the holy Scriptures ; and hence came so many Summes , Sentences , Quodlibets , Legends , Rules , Decretals , and Decrees : for now by the example of Peter Lumbard many devised subtile , and intricate disputations , calling almost every thing into doubt , after the manner of the Skeptiques , or Academiques ; and leaving the plaine and wholesome food of the holy Scripture , they began to gnaw on the bones of a controversie ; doting about questions , and strife of words , 1 Timoth. 6.4 . and yet in this curious and scholastique age , when men had almost lost themselves in the maze and mist of distinctions , the Lord raised ●●●●ch plaine witnesses , as served to testifie his trut●● though not in the words which the wis●dome of man teacheth , yet in such as the Holy Ghost teach●th . In this age lived William Bishop of Paris , Gulielmus Alt●ssiodorensis : Hugo Cardinalis , who made the first Concordance upon the Bible . Honorius Augustodunnensis , who composed the summe of historie . Alexander of Hales an Englishman brought up in Paris ; he was stiled the Irrefragable Doctor , and was tutour to Bonaventure , of whom he used to say , b that He was of such a godly life and behaviour , as Adam might seeme not to have sinned in him . Now also lived Ioh● Duns called Scotus , because hee was descended of Scottish blood ; hee was from the subtilitie of his wit , stiled the Subtile Doctor● he was borne at Emildon , in Northumberland , and being brought up in Merton Colledge in Oxford , as also having heard c Alexander Hales reade and professe in the Vniversitie of Paris , he became wonderfull well learned in Logicke , and in that crabbed and intricate divinitie of those d●yes ; yet as one still doubtfull and unresolved , he did overcast the truth of religion with mists of obscurity , and with so profound and admirable subtility , in a da●ke and rude stile , he wrote many workes , that he deserved the title of the Subtile Doctor , and after his owne name erected a new sect of the Scotists . That he was bo●ne here in England is vouched out of his owne Manuscript workes in the Libra●ie of Merton Colledge in Oxford , which my selfe have seene , which concludeth in this manner d explicit Lectura &c. that is , Thus en●eth the Lecture of the subtile Doctor in the Vn●versity of Paris ; Iohn Duns borne in a certaine little Village or hamlet within the Parish of Emildon called Dunston in the County of Northumberland , pert●ining to the house of the Schollers of Merton Hall in Oxford . The famousest of all the schoolemen was Saint Thomas of Aquine , entitled the Angelique Doctor . In this age lived Robert Grosted , Doctor of Divinitie in Oxford , and Bishop of Lincolne ; he was termed the Maull and Hammer of the Romanists ; f he wrote a famous letter to the Pope , extant in Mathew Paris , wherein he proved the Pope by his abhominable soule-murthering actions , to be an heritike worthy of death , yea to be Antichrist , and to sit in the chaire of Pestilence , as next to Lucifer himselfe . Herewith the Pope was so incensed , that he swore by Saint Peter and Paul , he could finde in his heart , to make the doating Prelate a mirrour of confusion to all the world for his saucinesse : but some of the wiser Cardinals disswaded him from such courses , telling him that it was true h which he sayd , that he was holier than any of themselves● and therefore it was best to hush the matter , and not to stirre the coales ; specially sith it was knowne , that at length there would be a departure from their Church : he prophecied i that the Church would never be set free , from her Agyptian bondage , but by the edge of the sword , which we have seene in part accomplished . In this age flourished those two learned men , k Gerardus disciple to Sagarel us of Parma , and Dulcinus disciple to one Novarius Hermannus ; these held and preached , that the Pope was Antichrist , and the Church of Rome Babilon : some thirty of their followers came into England , and were there persecuted for preaching that and the like doctrine . It is like ●hat this Dulcinus had many followers , for Coc●l●us saith , l that Iohn Hus co●mitted spirituall fornication with the Wiclevists , and with the Dulcinists . Bergomensis the Chronologer saith ; m that there were some sixe thousand people that fo●lowed Dulcinus ; and that in his time , the remainders of this profession were living about Trent ; now he continued his Chronologie unto the yeare of Grace 1503. Prateolus saith , n that the remainder of the Dulcinists had in his time revived and renewed their opinions , in divers places of France and Germanie . Platina saith o , they were called Fratricelli , or the Brethren , and that Pope Clement the fifth sent out an armie against them into the Alpes , where he famished and starved divers of them . Nicholas Eymericus in his Directory for the Inquisitours saith , p that they filled the whole land of Lombardie with their opinions , which he calleth erroneous . Petrus de vincis , Chancellour to Fredericke the Emperour , in his letters to the Christian Princes , feareth not to call the Pope an Apostata , q and the Beast rising out of the Sea , full of names of blasphemie , and like unto a Leopard ; and againe , the Court of Rome , may be called non curia , sed cura , marcam desideraus plusquam Marcum , more desirous of a marke ( of silver ) than of S. Markes Gospell , or of taking of Salmons , than of reading of Salomon . About this time lived Arnold de nova villa , a Spanyard , who taught r , that Satan had then seduced a great part of the world : that the faith then taught , was but such a faith as the devils might have who beleeve and tremble , meaning belike a historicall , and not a saving , justifying faith ; as also , that the Pope led men to hell : that , he and his Clergie did falsifie the doctrine of Christ : that masses were not to be said for the dead . In this age there were great odds betweene William of Saint Amour a Doctor of Paris , and the Friers Mendicants , or Iacobins ; he accused them for troubling the peace of the Church , in that they preached in Churches , against the will of the ordinary Pastours , and heard confessions , sleighting the parish Priests , as men of weake abilities ; and also for that they had made a booke , which they called the everlasting Gospell , whereunto they said Christs Gospell was not to be compared : Pope Alexander the fourth was content upon complaint made unto him , that the Friers booke should be burned s , provided that it were done covertly and secretly , and so as the Friers should not be discredited thereby : and as for William of Saint Amour , hee dealt sharply with him , commanding his booke to be burnt : as also he suspended t from their benefices and promotions all such as either by word or writing had opposed the Friers , untill such time as they should revoke and recant all such speeches and writings at Paris , or other places appointed : so tender was his holines over the Friers credit and reputation , knowing ( belike ) what service might be done to him and his successours by these newly errected orders of ●riers : I call them newly erected , for in the time of Pope Innocent the third about the yeare 1198 , the Iacobites ( an order of preaching Friers ) were instituted by Saint Dominicke ; and about the beginning of this age , the order of Franciscans ( preaching ) Friers Minors was instituted by Saint Francis u , borne at Assise a towne in Italy . Of the Scriptures sufficiencie , and Canon . SCo●us saith , x that supernaturall knowledge , as much as is necessarie for a wayfaring man , is sufficiently delivered in sacred S●ripture . Thomas Aquinas in his commentary upon that place of Saint Paul , the Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation , that the man of God may be perfect , 2 Timoth. 3.15.17 . saith y that the Scriptures doe not qualifie a man a●ter an ordinarie sort , but they perfit him , so that nothing is wanting , to make him happy . And accordingly Bonaventure saith ; z The bene●it of s●ripture is not ordinarie ; but such as is able to make a man fully blessed and happy . Hugo Cardinalis speaking of the bookes rejected by us , saith These bookes are not received by the Church for proofe of doctrine , but for information of manners . Of Communion under both kindes ; and n●mber of Sacraments . ALexander Hales , howsoever he some way incline to that opinion , that it is sufficient to receive the Sacrament in one kind : yet he confesseth b that there is more merit and devotion , and compleatnesse , and efficacie in receiving in both . Againe , hee saith c ; Whole Christ is not sacramentally conteined under each forme ; because the bread signifieth the body , and not the blood ; the wine signifieth the blood , and not the body . Concerning the Churches practise , wee doe not finde that the lay people were as yet barred of the cup in the holy Sacrament : for our Countrey-man Alexander Hales who flourished d about the yeare of Grace 1240. saith ; that we may receive the body of Christ under the forme of bread onely , sicut fere ubique fit à Laicis in ecclesiâ , as it is almost every where done of the Laiety in the Church ; it was almost done every where , but it was not done every where . Concerning the Sacraments , the Schoolemen of this age can hardly agree amongst themselves , that there be seaven Sacraments properly so called . Alexander of Hales saith f , that there are onely ●oure , which are in any sort properly to be sayd Sacraments of the new Law ; that the other three supposed Sacraments had their being before , but received some addition by Christ , manifested in the flesh ; that amongst them which began with the new Covenant , onely Baptisme and the Eucharist were instituted immediately by Christ , received their formes from him , and flowed out of his wounded side . Touching Confirmation , the same Alexander of Hales saith g ; the Sacrament of Confirmation , as it is a Sacrament , was not ordained either by Christ , or by the Apostles , but afterwards was ordained by the Councell of Meldain France . Touching extreame unction , Suarez saith h , that both Hugo of Saint Victor in Paris , and Peter Lombard and Bonaventure , and Alexander of Hales , and Altissidorus ( the cheefe schoolemen of their time ) denyed this Sacrament to be instituted by Christ , and by plaine consequence ( saith he ) it was no true Sacrament , though they were of opinion that a Sacrament might be instituted by the Apostles , and therefore admitted not of this consequence . Of the Eucharist . COncerning the Eucharist , Scotus saith , i that it was not in the beginning so manifestly beleeved as concerning this coversion . k But principally this seemeth to move us to hold Transubstantiation , because concerning the Saraments we are to hold as the Church of Rome doth . And hee addeth ; wee must say , the Church , in the Creed of the Lateran councell , under Innocent the third , which begins with these words , Firmiter credimus , declared this sence concerning Transubstantiation , to belong to the veritie of our faith . And if you demaund , why would the Church make choice of so difficult a sence of this Article , when the words of the Scripture , This is my Body , might be upholden after an easie sence , and in appearance more true ? I say , the Scriptures were expounded by the same spirit that made them : and so it is to be supposed , that the catholike Church expounded them by the same spirit : whereby the faith was delivered us , namely being taught by the spirit of truth , l and therefore it chose this sence because it was true : thus farre Scotus . Let us now see what Bellarmie saith . Scotus tells us ( saith he ) that before the Councell of Lateran , ( which was held in the yeare one thousand two hundred and fifteene ) transubstantiation was not beleeved as a point of faith ; this is confessed by Bellarmine to be the opinion of Scotus : onely he would avoyd his testimonie with a minime probandum est ; Scotus indeed saith so , but I cannot allow of it ; and then hee taxeth Scotus with want of reading : as if this learned and subtile Doctor had not seene as many Councels , and read as many Fathers for his time , as Bellarmine . The same Bellarmine saith , m that Scotus held , that there was no one place of scripture so expresse , which ( without the declaration of the Church ) would evidently compell a man to admit of Transubstantiation : and this , saith the Cardinall , is not altogether improbable . It is not altogether improbable , that there is no expresse place of Scripture to proove Transubstantiation without the declaration of the Church ( as Scotus sayd ) for although the Scriptures seeme to us so plaine that they may compell any but a refractary man to beleeve them ; yet it may justly be doubted , whether the Text be cleare enough to enforce it , seeing the most acute and learned men , such as Scotus was , have thought the contrary : thus farre Bellarmine , unto whom I will adde the testimonie of Cuthbert Tonstall the learned Bishop of Durham . His words are these n ; Of the manner and meanes of the Reall presence , either by Transubstantiation , or otherwise , perhaps it had beene better to leave every man , that would be curious , to his owne conjecture , as before the councell of Lateran it was left : and Master Bernard Gilpin , a man most holy , and renowned among the Northerne English , and one that was well acquainted with Bishop Tonstall his kinsman , and Diocesan , saith o ; I remember that Bishop Tonstall often tol●e me that Pope Innocent the third had done very unadv●sedly in that hee had made the opinion of Transubstantiation an Article of Faith : seeing in former times it was free to holde or refus● that opinion . The same Bishop tolde me , and many time ingenuously confessed p that Scotus was of opinion that the Church might better and with more ease make use of some more commodious exposition of those words in the holy Supper : and the Bishop was of the minde that we ought to speake reverently of the holy Supper , but that the opinion of Transubstantiation , might well be let alone . This thing also the same Bishop Tonstall was wont to affirme both in words and writings , that Innocent the third knew not what he did when hee put Transubstantiation among the Articles of Faith , and he said that Innocentius wanted learned men about him , and indeed ( saith the Bishop ) if I had beene of his councell , I make no doubt but I might have beene able to have disswaded him from that resolution . By this that hath beene sayd , it appeares that Transubstantiation was neither holden , nor knowne universally in the Church before the Lateran Councell ; twelve hundred yeares after Christ : and that when it began to be received as a matter of Faith , it was but beleeved upon the Churches authoritie ; and this Church virtually and in effect was Pope Innocent in the Lateran Councell , twelve hundred yeeres and more after Christ ; before which time there was no certaintie , nor necessity of beleeving it ; and the Councell might have chosen another sence of Christs words more easie and in all appearance more true ; there being no scripture sufficient to convince it . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . HOnorius of Authun in France , saith : q There is none that is godly wise , who will worship and adore the Crosse , but Christ crucified on the crosse . Roger Hoveden , our native historian , who lived in the beginning of this age , condemned the adoration of Images ; for , speaking of the Synodall Epistle written by the Fathers of the second Nicen councell , wherein Image worship was established , he tells us ; r that Charles the King of France sent into this Isle a Synodall booke directed unto him from Constantinople , wherein there were divers offensive passages ( but especially this one , that by the joynt consent of all the Doctors of the East , and no fewer than 300 B●shops , it was decreed that Images should be worshipped ( quod ecclesia Dei execratur ) ( saith he ) which the Church of God abhorres . Guilielmus Altissiodorensis saith s that for such and such reasons many doe say , that neither we pray unto the Saints , nor they pray for us , but improperly : in r●spect we pray unto God , that the merits of the Saints may h●lpe us . Of Faith and Merit . THomas Aquinas saith , t that workes be not the cause why a man is just before God , but rather they are the execution and manifestation of his justice : for no man is just●fied by workes , but by the Habit of Faith infused ; yea just●fication is done by Faith onely . And Aquinas in his commentary on the Galatians in the place alleadged , tho at the first he mention such workes as are performed by the power of nature , yet afterwards he speakes also of workes wrought by the power of grace , and of such as Saint Iames mentions , Chap. 2. saying ; Was not Abraham justified by workes ? but these were workes of grace ; and yet Thomas excludes from justification , workes done in the state of Grace ; and saith , Iustification is done by Faith onely . Bonaventure saith , that by onely Faith in Christs passion , all the fault is remitted , and without the faith of h●m no man is justified . Velosillus in his animadversions upon the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church observeth y , that Scotus held not merit of Condig●ity . And Vega saith , that Thomas Aquinas the flower of the Schoole-Divines constantly affirmeth , that a sinner can not merit his owne just●fication either of congruity , or of condignity ; and thus have these men given in their verdict , but now let us heare themselves speake . There is no action of ours , saith Scotus z , that without the speciall ordinance of God , and his divine acceptation , is worthy of the reward with which God rewardeth them that serve him , in respect of the inward goodnesse that it hath from the causes of it ; because alwayes the reward is greater than the merit , and strict Iustice doth not give a better thing for a thing of lesse value : And againe hee saith a , That speaking of strict Iustice , God is bound to none of us , to bestow rewards of so high perfection as hee doth , the rewards being so much greater in worth , than any merits of ours . The Prophet David ( saith b the learned Archbishop of Armagh hath fully cleared this case , in that one sentence Psalm . 62.12 . With thee Oh Lord , is mercy ; for thou r●ward●st every man according to his workes . Originally therefore , and in it selfe , this reward proceedeth meerely from Gods free bounty and mercy : but accidentally , in regard that God hath tyed himselfe by his word and promise , to conferre such a reward , it now prov●th in a sort to be an act of Iustice , in regard of the faithfull performance of his prom●se . For promise amongst honest men is counted a due debt ; but the thing promised being free , and on our part altogether undeserved , if the promiser did not performe , and proved not to be so good as his word ; hee could not properly be sayd to doe us wrong , but rather to wrong himselfe , by impayring his owne credit . And therefore Aquinas confesseth , c That God is not hereby simply made a debtor to us , but to himselfe ; in as much as it is requisite , that his owne ordin●nce should be fullfilled . William , Bishop of Paris , treating of prayer , giveth us this Caveat ; d Not to leane on the weake and fraile foundation of our owne merits , but wholly denying our selves , and distrusting our owne strength , to relye on the sole favour and mercy of God ; and in so doing , ( sayth hee ) the Lord will never faile us . Cassander saith e , That both ancient a●d moderne with full consent professe to repos● themselves wholly upon the meere mercy of God , and merit of Christ , with an humble renunciation of all worthinesse in their owne workes ; and this doctrine Cassander derives through the lower ages of the Schoole-men , and later writers ; Thomas of Aquine , Durand , Adrian de Trajecto ( afterwards Pope Adrian the sixth ) Clictoveus , and delivers it for the voyce of the then present Church . THE FOVRTEENTH CENTVRIE . From the yeere of Grace 1300. to 1400. PAP . WHat say you of this fourteenth Age ? PROT. In this Age learning began to revive ; for so it came to passe , that divers learned men among the Greekes , abhorring such cruelty as the Turkes used against their Countrey-men the Grecians , left those parts , and fled into Italy . Now by their meanes , the knowledge of Letters , and study of Tongues , specially the Greeke & Latin , began to spread ab●●ad thorow divers parts of the West . Of this number were Emanuel Chrysoloras of Constantinople , Theodorus Gaza of Thessalonica , Georgius Trapezuntius , Cardinall Bessarion , and others ; in like sort also afterwards Iohn Cap●io brought the use of the Greeke and Hebrew tongues into Germany , as Faber Stapulensis observeth : And in the beginning of this age , Hebrew was first taught in Oxford , as our accurat Chronologer Mr. Isaacson hath observed g . Now also lived Nicholas de Lyra , h a converted Iew , who commented on all the Bible . In this age there were divers both of the Greeke and Latin Church who stood for Regall Iurisdiction against Papall usurpation ; and namely , Barlaam the Monke ; Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica ; Marsilius Patavinus : Michael Cesenas Generall of the gray Friers ; Dante the Italian Poet ; and William Ockam i the English man , sometime fellow of Merton Colledge in Oxford , surnamed the Invincible Doctor , and Scholler to Scotus the subtile Doctor : Now also lived Durand de S. Porciano . Nilus alleadgeth divers passages out of the generall Councels , against the Popes supremacy , and thence inferreth as followeth . That , k Rome can not challenge preheminence over other Seas , because Rome is named in order before them ; for by the same reason Constantinople should have the preheminence over Alexandria ; which yet she hath not . From the severall and distinct boundaries of the Patriarchall Seas he argueth , that l neither is Rome set over other Seas , nor others subject to Rome . That whereas Rome stands upon the priviledge , that other places appeale to Rome ; he saith m , That so others appeale to Constantinople , which yet hath not thereby Iurisdiction over other places . That whereas it is said the Bishop of Rome judgeth others , and himselfe is not judged of any other ; he saith n , That St. Peter whose successour he pretends himselfe to be , suffred himselfe to be reproved by S. Paul ; and yet the Pope ( tyrant-like ) will not have any enquire after his doings . Barlaam prooveth out of the Chalcedon Councell , [ Canon 28. ] That the Pope had not any primacy over other Bishops , from Christ , or S. Peter ; but many ages after the Apostles ; by the gift of holy Fathers and Emperours : if the Bishop of Rome ( sayth hee o ) had anciently the supremacy , and that S. Peter had appointed him to be the Pastour of the whole Church ; what needed those godly Emperours decree the same as a thing within the verge of their owne power and jurisdiction ? Marsilius Patavinus wrote a booke called Defensor Pacis , on the behalfe of Lewis Duke of Baviere , and Emperour , against the Pope , for challenging power to invest and depose Kings : Hee held , p that Christ hath excluded , and purposed to exclude himselfe and his Apostles from principality , or contentious jurisdiction , or regiment , or any coactive judgement in this world . His other Tenets are reported to be these q : 1 That the Pope is not superiour to other Bishops , much lesse to the Emperour . 2. That things are to be decided by Scripture . 3. That learned men of the Laiety are to have voyces in Councels . 4. That the Cleargy , and the Pope himselfe are to be subject to Magistrates . 5. That the Church is the whole cōpany of the faithfull . 6. That Christ is the Head of the Church , and appoint●d none to be his Vicar . 7. That Priests may marry . 8. That St. Peter was never at Rome . 9. That the popish ●ynagogue is a denne of theeves . 10. That the Popes doctrine is not to be followed . With this Marsilius of P●dua , there joyned in opiniō Iohn of Gandune , and they both held , that r Clerkes are , and should be subject to secular powers , both in payment of Tribute , and in iudg●ments , specially not Ecclesiasticall : so that they stood against the Exemption of Clerkes . Michael Cesenas Generall of the Order of Franciscans , stood up in the same quarrell , and was therefore deprived of his dignities by Pope Iohn the two and twentieth , from whom he appealed s to the Catholicke univers●ll Church , and to the next generall Councell . About this time also lived the noble Florentine Poet Dante , a learned Philosopher and Divine , who wrote a booke against the Pope , concerning the Monarchy of the Emperour ; but for taking part with him , the Pope banished him t . But of all the rest , our Countrey-man Ockam stucke close to the Emperour , to whom he sayd u , that if he would defend him with the sword , he againe would defend him with the Word . Ockam argueth the case , and inclineth to this opinion , that x in temporall matters , the Pope ought to be subject to the Emperour , in as much as Christ himselfe , as he was man , professeth that Pilate had power to judge him given of God ; as also , that neither Peter , nor any of the Apostles had temporall power given them by Christ , and hereof he gives testimony y from Bernard and Gregory . Ockams writings were so displeasing to the Pope , as that he excommunicated him for his labour , and caused his treatise or worke of ninety dayes , as also his Dialogues to be put into the blacke bill of bookes prohibited and forbidden z . It is true indeed , that Ockam submitted his writings to the censure and judgement of the Church ; but ( as hee saith a , to the judgement of the Church Catholike , not of the Church malignant . The same Ockam spoke excellently in the point of generall Councels : Hee held , b that Councels are not called generall , because they are congregated by the authority of the Romane Pope ; and that c if Princes and Lay-men please , they may be present , & have to deale with matters treated in general Councels . That , d a generall Councell , or that congregation which is commonly reputed a generall Councell by the world , may erre in matters of faith : and in case such a generall Councell should erre , yet God would not leave his Church destitute of all meanes of saving truth , but would raise up spirituall children to Abraham , out of the rubbish of the Laiety , despised Christians , and dispersed Catholikes e . Wee have heard the judgement of the learned abroad touching Iurisdiction Regall and Papall ; let us now see the practice of our owne Church and State. In the Reigne of King Edward the third : sundry expresse Statutes were made f , that if any procured any Provisions from Rome of any Abbeyes , Priories or Benefices in England , in destruction of the Realme , and holy Religion : if any man sued any Processe out of the Court of Rome , or procured any personall Citation from Rome , upon causes whose cognisance and finall discussion pertained to the Kings Court , that they should be put out of the Kings protection , and their lands , goods , and chattels forfeited to the King. In the Reigne of King Richard the second it was enacted g , That no Appeale should thenceforth be made to the Sea of Rome upon the penalty of a Praemunire , which extended to perpetuall banishment , and losse of all their lands and goods : the words of the statute are g , If any purchase or pursue in the Court of Rome any Translations of Bishoprickes , processes , and sentences of excommunication , Bulles , instruments , or other things ; they shall be out of the Kings protection , and their lands and tenements , goods and chattels forfeit to the King ; and processe to be made against them by Praemunire facias . It was also enacted in the Reigne of King Henry the fourth h , that all elections of all Archbishoprickes , Abbeyes , Priories , Deanries , and other dignities should be free , without being in any wise interrupted by the Pope . And indeede it was high time to curbe the Popes bestowing of Benefices on forrainers ; for upon an Inquisition taken by Simon Langham Archbishop of Canterbnry , it was found i , that some had above twenty Churches and dignities by the Popes authority , and were thereby further priviledged to hold so many more as they could get without measure or number . Yea , the Romans and Italians were so multiplied within a few yeares in English Church-livings , that when King Henry the third caused a view thereof to be taken throughout the whole Realme , the summe of their revenewes was found to be yeerely , as Mathew Paris sai●h k , Sexaginta millia marcarum , threescore thousand markes , to the which summe the yeerely revenues of the Crowne of England did not amount . By this that hath beene said , it appeares to be an untruth , which the Papists in their Supplication l , and the Authour of the treatise called the Prudentiall Ballance , have given out , to wit● m That all the Kings of England unto King Henry the eight were papists ; for divers of them dyed before the grossenes of Popery began ; othe●s of thē , as namely King Henry the first and secōd , King Iohn , King Richard the second , and Edward the third , opposed the Papacy . Now the very being & essence of a Papist consists , in acknowledging the Popes supremacy n , which since these did not acknowledge , but withstood it ; they cannot properly be tearmed Papists , though they were carried away with the errours of those times . In this age lived those famous Florentine Poets , Dante and Petrarch ; as also our English Laureat , Chaucer ; as also Ioannes de Rupe scissâ , or Rocke-cliffe , and S. Bridget . And these found fault with the Romish faith , as well as with her manners . Dante in his Poeme of Paradise , written in Italian , complaines that the Pope of a shepheard was become a wolfe , & diverted Christs sheepe out of the true way ; that the Gospell was forsaken , the writings of the Fathers neglected , and the Decretals onely studied . That in times past warre was made upon the Church by the sword , but now by a famine and dearth of the Word , which was allotted for the food of the soule , & not wont to be denied to any that desired it ; that men applauded thēselves in their owne conceits , but the Gospell was silenced ; that the poore sheepe were fed with the puffes of winde , and were pined and consumed away . Dante his words are these , o Produce et spande il maladetto fi●r● , Cha desu●ate le pecore et gli agni , Però che fatto ha lupo del pastore . Per quest● l' evangelio i d●ttor magni Son derelitti ; et solo à i decretali Si studia si ; che pare , à i lor viuagni , A questo intende ' l papae Cardinali . which may be thus Englished , She did produce , and forth hath spread The cursed flower , which hath misled The sheepe and lambes , because that then Shepheards became fierce wolves , not men . Hereupon the Gospell cleare And the ancient Fathers were Forsaken ; then the Decretals By the Pope and Cardinals Were onely read ; as may appeare By th' salvage of the gownes they weare . Againe , p Già solea con le spade far guerra ; Ma hor si fa , togliondo hor qui hor quivi Lo pan ; ch' el pio padre a nessun serra . I' th' dayes of old with sword they fought , But now a new way they have sought By taking away now h●re , there then The bread of life from starved men ; Which our pious fathers ne're denyed , To any one that for it cryed . Againe , q Per apparer ciaf●un in gl●gn● , et face Sue inventioni , & quelle sontrascorse Da predicanti ; e● l vangilio sitace . Non disse Chris●o al su primo convento , Andate , & predicate al mondo ciance ; Ma d●ed e l●r verace fondamento : Et quel tanto sond ne le sue guance , Si cli à pugnar , par accender la fede , Del ' evangelio fero scudi & lance . Hora si va con motti et coniscede , A predicar ; & pur che ben si rida , Gonfi● a' l cappuccio , & più non si richiede Matal vcel nel ' bechetto S' annida : Che se'l vulg il vedesse , vederebbe La perdonanza , di che si confida , Per cui tanta stultitia in terra crebbe ; Che sanza prova d' alcun testimonio Ad ogni , promession , si conuerebbe ; Di questo n grassa l' porco Sant Antonio Et altri auch●r , che son assai più porci , Pagando di moneta sanza conio . Christ sayd not to th' Apostles , goe And preach vaine toyes the world unto : But he did give them a true ground , Which onely did in their eares sound . So providing for to fight And to kindle faith●s true light , Out of the Gospell they did bring Their sheild and speares t' effect the thing . Now the way of preaching , is with toyes To stuffe a sermon ; and herein joy's Their teachers ; if the people doe but smile At their conceits , the Frier i'th'meane while Huff'es up his Cowle , and is much admir'd ; For that 's his aime ; there 's nothing else requir'd : ●ut in this hood there is a nest Of birds , which could the vulgar ●ee , They might spie pardons , and the rest , How worthy of their trust they bee . By these their Indulgences and pardons , [ And by their Friers absolutions ] Such follies on the earth abound , That without proofe or other ground Of testimony , men agree To any promise that made can be . By this St. Anthony piggs grow fat , And such like Pardoners ; so that Hereby they feede the belly and the groine , Paying their people with counterfeit coine . Here we see how the Poet taxeth papall Indulgences which the Friers vented , enriching themselves by marting such pardons , or Bulles signed or sealed with Lead , for which the people paid currant money ; he also taxeth such as vainely trusted to such pardons ; as also the fond conceite they had of being shriven and absolved in a Monkes cowle , as if some rare vertue had layd in that Cuculla or Capuccio , alluding ( belike ) to the Monkes hood , or Friers cowle , as if the fashion thereof had resembled the Cuckowe . The same Dante in covert termes , calleth Rome the whore of Babylon mentioned in the Apocalyps ; his words are these . Di voi pastor s' accorse ' l' vangelista ; quando colei , che siede soura l' acque , putaneggiar co i regi à lui fù vista ; Quella ; che con le sette teste nacque , et da le diece corna hebb ' argomento , fin che virtute al suo marito piacque . The Evangelist meetes with you well You [ Romish ] Pastours ; when he doth tell How he did see the woman , which Sits on the waters [ that foule witch ] To play the whore with Kings ; that Beast That borne was with seaven hornes at least . And had the signe of some ten more T' appease her husband by their powre . The Authour alludes to that in the Revelation , of the great whore that sitteh on many waters , Reuelat. 17.1 . and of the beast that beareth her , which hath seaven heads , and ten hornes , vers . 7. with whom the Kings of the earth commit fornication . Chap. 18. v. 3. Francis Petrarch the Laureat Poet , and Archdeacon of Parma , a man excellently skilled in the Scriptures , and one who ( as Trithemius saith s , ) Revived learning after it had beene a long time decayed , speakes more fully , saying t ; Del ' empia Babylonia , ond ' è fugitta Ogni vergogna , ond ' ogni bene è fuori , Albergo di dolor , madre d' errori , Son fugi●t ' ●o per allongar la vita . Out of wicked Babylon By Gods helpe at length I am gone ; From which all shame is banished , From which all good is vanished . The Lodge of griefe and misery , The Mother of all Heresie . And elsewhere he speakes as roundly ; u Fontana di dolore , albergo d' ira , Scola d errori , e tempiod heresia , Gia Roma , hor Babylonia , falsa e ria Per cui tanto si piagne ; e si sospira . O fucina d' inganni , o prigion d' ira ; Ove ' I ben more , e ' i mal si nutre e cria ; Di vivi inferno , un gran mira col fia , Se Christo teco al fine non sad ira . Well-spring of griefe , and fierce wraths Hospitall , The Schoole of errour , temple of Heresie ; Once Rome , now Babylon , most wicked , all With sighes and teares bewayle thy pitteous fall . Thou Mother of deceit , bulwarke of Tyranny , Truths persecuter , nurse of iniquity , The Living's Hell ; a miracle it will be , If Christ in fury come not against thee Most shamelesse whoore . These sayings of Petrarch did so gall the Pope , that Pius Quintus hath caused three Sonnets to be razed x out of Petrarch ; and so indeed I found in the Petrarch which used Mancano tre sonnetti y , that three Sonnets were wanting , but that which I have alleadged , is found in the Basil edition . PAP . Bellarmine sayth z , that Petrarch spoke thus of the Court of Rome , and not of the Church of Rome ; of Romes corruption in manners , not in doctrine . PROT. This answer will not serve : for though Petrarch might meane the Court , by the name of Babylon , and by imputing to it Covetousnesse and Licentiousnesse ; yet when he charges Rome with Idolatry , and cals it the Temple of Heresie , can this be intended of the Court of Rome ? or of corruption onely in point of life ? Besides , if any should thinke , that Petrarch spoke thus onely in a Poeticall veine , he is the same man in Prose in his Latin Epistles ; for therein addressing his speech to the Sea of Rome , he saith ; Thou art that famous , or rather in●amous h●rlot , which committest fornication with the Kings of the earth ; the selfe s●me strumpet thou art , which the sacred Evangelist saw in the spirit ; the selfe s●me , I say thou art , and no other ; having thy se●t upon many waters ; then he speakes of her doome , saying ; What other end doest thou expect , but the same prophesied by Iohn : Great Babylon is fallen , is fallen , and made an habitation for divels ? But thou my deare friend , with the same Apostle heare another voice speaking from Heaven , Come out of her my people , and be not partakers of her iniquities , that so you may receive none of her stripes . To these two Italians ( to make up a Triumvirate of famous Poets ) we may ioyne our English Laureat Sir Geoffry Chaucer . This noble Knight , who by marriage was brother in law to Iohn of Gaunt , Duke of Lancaster , found fault with the Faith , as well as the manners of the Romanists in his dayes , as may appeare by these instances following ; of St. Peters successour he sayth c , in the ●●owmans tale . * Peter was never so gr●at a foole , To leave h●s * Key with such a * Lorrell , Or take s●ch curs●d such a toole ; He was advis●d nothing well , I trow they have the key of hell . Their Master is of that place Marshall , For there they dressen them to dwell ; And with false Lucifer there to fall ; They beene as proud as Lucifer , As angry , and as envious ; From good faith they beene full farre , In covetize they beene curious . This , and much more doth he utter in the person of a simple Ploughman , implying thereby that the meanest Country●body in those dayes , could out of Gods Word , tell what was right and religious , and what otherwise ; yea , and taxe the wickednesse and blindnesse of the Romanists in those dayes . Touching their Shrift , Reliques , Pardons , and merit of workes , he sayth as followeth d . Full sweetly heard he Confession , And pl●asant was his Absolution . He was an easie man to give pennance , Th●re as he w●st to h●ve a good pittance . For unto a poore ord●r for to give , Is signe that a man is well yshrive . For many a man is so hard of heart , That he may not weepe though him smart . Therefore in stead of weeping and of prayers , Men mote give silver to the poore Friers . Touching the pardoner he sayth ; Ne was there such another Pardoner , For in his male had he a pillowbere , Which as he sayd was our Ladyes vayle . He sayd he had a gobbet of the sayle That Saint Peter had when that he went Vpon the Sea till Iesu Christ him shent . In the Pardoners tale he sayth f , Myn holy pardon may you all warish , So that yee offer nobles , or sterlings , Other ●ls● silver spoones , brooches , or rings . Boweth your head under this Bull ; Commeth up ●e wives , and offereth of your wooll ; Your names h●re I ent●r in my rolle anon , Into the bl●sse of Heaven sh●ll yee all gon . I you assoile by mine high power Yee that offeren , as cleane and eke cleere As yee were borne . And els●where he sayth , The cleannesse and the fasting of us Freers , Maketh that Christ accepteth our prayers . In the Romant of the Rose , he appli●th the name of Antichrist to that Sea , saying h , Of Antichrist's men am I , Of which that Christ sayth openly ; They have habite of holinesse , And living in such wickednesse . Take now a taste of the questions , which in the person of Iacke Vpland , he mooves to the Frier . Frier saith he i , Why make yee men beleeve that your golden * Tr●ntals , sung of you , to take therefore five or ten ●hillings at the l●ast ; wole bring soules out of purgatory ? if this be sooth , certes yee might bring all soules out of paine , and that will yee nought , and then yee be out of charity . Freere , what charity is this , to prease upon a rich man , and to entice him to die in a Friers cowle , and be buried among you , from his Parish-church ; and and to such rich men , give letters of Brother-hood , confirmed by your generall seale ; and thereby to beare him in hand , that he shall have part of all your Masses , Mattens , Fastings , wakings , and all other good deeds done by you , and your brethren , both whiles he lives , and after his death ? Why graunt yee them the merit of your good deeds , and yet weeten never , whether God be apayd with your deeds , ne whether the party that hath that letter , be in state to be saved , or damned ? Fre●re , why heare yee not poore folkes shrift , but are Confessors to the rich , to Lords and Ladyes , whom yee mend not ? but they be bolder to pill their poore tennants , and to live in lechery . In this Age Iohn de Rupe scissa was famous for prophecies and predictions . The Chronicler reports of him as followeth k . Pope Innocent about that time caused a Cordelier , whose name was Iohn de Rupe scissa , ( accused of sorcery ) to be burned in Avignion ; because he was too sharpe in his Sermons against the Sea of Rome , and because he had prophesied many things to come concerning the Popes , and amongst others said in plaine termes ; that the Pope would be one day like unto that Bird , which being naked , was fledged and feathered by borrowing a feather of every bird ; and then seeing herselfe so furnished , fat , and faire , she began to flutter and strike at others with her beake and clawes ; the other birds that had made her so gay , seeing her pride and insolency , redemanded their owne feathers , and so left the poore bird naked , and starved with cold . The like ( sayth he l ) will one day befall the Pope : and for this he was taken and pronounced an Heretique : hee began to proph●si● from the yeare 1345. in the dayes of Pope Clement the Sixt ; and divers of those things came to passe which he for●told . Thus farre the Chronicle . Froissart the Historian saith m ; Vnder Innocent the Sixt there was at Avignion a c●rtaine Franciscan Frier , ●ndued with singular wit and learning , called Ioannes à Rupe-scissa , whom the Pope kept in prison in the Castle of Baignoux , for wonderfull things which hee affirmed should come to passe , especially upon Ecclesiasticall Pr●lats . This Iohn offered to prove all his assentions out of the Apocalyps , and the ancient bookes of the holy Prophets ; and indeed this Parable , or similitude of the Bi●d , may very well seeme to be taken out of the Apocalyps ; for there it is said ; that The Kings of the earth gave up their power and strength to the Beast : Apocalyps 17.13 . but at length they shall hate the whore , and shall make her desolate and naked , and shall eat● her flesh , and burne her with fire . v. 16. And this was it that he meant by the Parable of the Bird , namely , that Christian Princes which had endowed the Sea of Rome with large priviledges and possessions , would in time spoile her , and leave her desolate , accordingly as St. Iohn foretold . In like sort Br●dg●t , a Canonized Saint , foretold as heavy a doome to the Papacy . She n calls the Pope a Murderer of soules , the disperser and devourer of Christs sheepe , more abbominable than the Iewes , more despightfull than Iudas , more unjust than Pilat , worse than Lucifer , and that his seate should sinke like a weighty stone , alluding belike , to the fall of Babylon set foorth in the Revelation , Apocalyps 18.21 . by the Parable of a Mill-stone cast into the Sea , so shall Babylon be throwne downe , and found no more . Alv●rus Pelagius wrote a booke of the Lamentation of the Church , wherein he notably taxed Monasticall vowes ; for speaking of the Monkes and Cloysterers of his Age , he saith o They professed poverty , and yet expected other mens states and inheritances . And speaing of Priests and Votaries which had vowed chastity , he saith of them p , That the Celles of Anchorites were dayly visited by women ; and in another place q ; Priests for many yeeres together doe arise every day from their Concubines sides , and without going to Confession , say Masse . And againe r , There be few Priests in these dayes , in Spaine and Apulia , which doe not openly foster Concubines . He saith s that now adayes , The Law is perished from among the Priests , and vision among the Prophets , and that is fullfilled which is written , 1 Kings , Chap. 22. v. 22. I will goe out and be a false spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets . In this age the Church and State of England was much burthened with the order of Franciscan Friers● insomuch as Richard Fitz-Ralph , an Irishman , Chancelour of Oxford , Archbishop of Armagh , and Primate of Ireland , a learned Divine , as Trithemius saith t wrote and preached against the begging Friers . In his Sermons at Pauls Crosse in London in the yeere 1356. he taught u , That Christ did not undertake any such voluntary poverty , as the Friers vow ; he held it an unchristian course to be a willfull beggar , as being condemned in the fifteenth Chaper of Deuteronomy . Hee discovered x the Friers hypocrisie , in that though they pretended poverty , yet they had houses like the stately Pallaces of Princes , Churches more costly than any Cathedrall Churches , more and richer ornaments than all the Princes of the world , more and better bookes than all the Doctours of the world ; cloysters and walking places so sumptuous , stately and large , that men of Armes might fight on horse-backe , and encounter one another with their speares in them : and their Apparrell richer than the greatest Prelats . The contentions betweene Armachanus , and the Friers grew so hot , that Armachanus went in person to Avignion y , where Pope Innocent the sixt kept his Residence , and there in the presence of the Pope , and the foure orders of Friers he declared his opinion , and maintained such propositions as he had formerly held and publiquely taught : the issue was this ; the Pope had such use of these Friers , and the Friers had such store of money , z ( as Walsingham saith ) that they procured favour in the Popes Court ; so that Armachanus could not prevaile ; though ( as the same Walsingham saith ) He proved the cause stoutly and manifestly against them . To speake yet a little more of our home-bred witnesses : now lived Richard de Bury , Bishop of Durham , borne at S. Edmundsbury in Suffolke , and sonne to Sir Richard Angervile Knight ; he wrote Philobiblon a , and had alwayes in his house many Chapleines that were great Schollers ; Of which number were Thomas Bradwardine , Confessour to King Edward the third , and consecrated Archbishop of Canterbury , but never inthronized : Richard Fitz-Ralph , Walter Burley , and Robert Holcot the Dominican . Bradwardine was sometime fellow of Merton Coll●dge in Oxford ; and commonly called The profound Doctour . He taught the Article of free Iustification through Faith in Christ , the principall foundation of Christian Religion . He complaines that the same had hapned to him in this cause which sometime fell out with Elias the Prophet . Behold ( saith he ) b I speake it with griefe of heart , as in old time against one Prophet of God , there were found eight hundred and fifty Prophets of Baal : So at this day , in this cause , how many ( O Lord ) doe now sight with Pelagius for freewill against thy free grace , and against Paul the spirituall Champion of grace ? how many at this day reject free grace , and onely declare free-will to be sufficient unto Salvation ? for the whole world almost is gone after Pelagius into errour . Arise therefore O Lord , and judge thine owne cause . Now also lived that famous Preacher Taulerus at Strasbrough in Germany ; Bellarmine tells c us that Eckius ( Luthers great Antagonist ) suspected Taulerus that he was not a sound Catholike ; but Lewes Blosius hath notably defended him ; the truth is , his judgement was reasonable cleare , considering the time wherein he lived . For instance sake ; hee saith d , There be many , and thē of the religious sort , that have forsaken the fountaine of living waters , and digged themselves pits , that can hold no water , Ierem. 2.13 . and these ( saith hee ) are wholly addicted to their owne I●stitutes , orders , und outward exercises ; now though they performe many and great workes in appearance , yet it is not their going on procession and pilgrimage , to procure pardons and indulgences ( as they call them ) it is not all their Orizons , their knocking on their breast , their gazing on curious pictures and images , and their bowing of the knee before them ; all this ( saith he ) will not make their service acceptable to God : and why ? because that in doing this , they direct not their affections and intentions unto God , but divert them to the Creature . He saith f , There be many that goe under the name of Religious , who take great paines in set Fasts , wakes and vigils , orizons , and frequent shrift ; and thinke they shal be saved and justified by these bodily exercises ; but it can not be so , for God requireth the heart . Hee saith , ( alleadging the Prophet Esay , 64.6 . ) that all our righteousnesse is as filthy elouts ; and that therefore we must not put our trust , or repose our con●●dence in any thing that is ours , be it our words or workes , but in God. He commends unto us g the practise of the woman of Canaan ; and farther saith , hee knew a Virgin who tooke the like course , and obtained her request ; Now we know the practise of the woman of Canaan , of whom S. Chrysostome long before him observed h ; that shee intreated not Iames , nor Iohn , nor came to Saint Peter , but breaking through the whole company of them , sayd ; I have no neede of a mediatour , but taking repentance with me for a spokesman , I come to the fountaine it selfe . By that which hath beene said , we see what Taulerus thought touching humane traditions , mans merits , and Saintly invocation . In this age also lived Gregorius Ariminensis , whom Vega stiles i , The most able and carefull defender of St. Augustine . This learned Schoole-man in his booke upon the Sentences hath diligently confuted divers tenets which are now holden by the Church of Rome touching Predestination , Originall sinne , Free-will , the merite of workes , and other points . PAP . You have produced divers witnesses ; but Mr. Briereley excepteth against them ; and namely against Nilus , as erroneous touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost , as also a professed adversary to the Roman Church ; insomuch as his booke is put in the Catalogue of bookes forbidden l . And as for Iohn de Rupe scissa , William of St. Amour , Petrus Blesensis , Ockam , and Scotus , they were such as onely reprooved the life and manners of the Clergy m . PROT. If you barre Nilus from witnessing on our behalfe , because hee erred in the point mentioned , by the like reason may we challenge Damascen , whom you usually produce on your behalfe , as also others of the Greeke Church . Neither can you disable his testimony , because he wrote against the Popes primacy and purgatory ; hee had no personall quarrell with the Bishop of Rome ( for ought we know ) he might give his judgement on these points , and be unpartiall : if the Pope forbad his booke , there be other good men that approove it , and that for the proofes and reasons which he brings . Touching the other exception ; for the preventing ●hereof , I have purposely given instance in this Catalogue in points of faith , and sparingly alleadged such as onely taxed Romish corruptions in life and manners ; which yet is oft-times accompanied with errour in judgement ; for as Ockam saith ; Because evill manners blind the judgement , therefore every assembly which may erre notoriously in manners , may erre against the Faith. Besides , William of St. Amour ( as hath beene sayd ) opposed their Monkish vowes , which is a Doctrinal point ; Ockam opposed the Popes supremacy , which is a Dogmaticall point ; Peter of Bloix , and Iohn de Rupe-scissa , held the Pope to be Antichrist , and Ockam and Scotus held with us in divers doctrinall points . And now having cleared this coast , I come to speake of our countrey-man Iohn Wickliffe ; he was borne in the North , where there is ( neare to the place where I live ) an ancient and worshipfull house , bearing the name of Wickliffe of Wickliffe : Hee flourished about the yeere 1371. was Fellow of Merton-colledge , Master of Balioll-colledge in Oxford , where he commenced Doctour , and was chosen Reader in Divinity . In his publique Lectures at Oxford he shewed himselfe a learned Schoole-man , in his ordinary Sermons a faithfull Pastour of the Church , for whose use and benefit he translated the whole Bible into the vulgar tongue ; one Copy whereof written with his owne hand , is extant in St. Iohn Baptist Colledge in Oxford . In his writings hee spoke and taught against the then corrupred doctrine of the Church of Rome , and specially against the order of the begging Friers , exhibiting a complaint to rhe King and Parliament against the Orders of Friers ; which thing created him the hatred of divers Prelats , but many good men fauoured him . PAP . Were there many that tooke part with Wickliffe , and followed his doctrine ? and were those of the better ranke , or onely some meane persons ? PROT. He was highly favoured of the Nobility , the City of London , and the Vniversity of Oxford . Hee was publiquely borne out ( as Parsons confesseth o ) by Iohn of Gant , and Lord Henry Percy , the one of them Duke of Lancaster , the other Marshall of England : And Walsingham saith p , That when Wickliffe personally appeared before the Prelates , who purposed to put the Popes Mandate in execution , Lewis Clifford came with a Prohibition from the Queene , charging them not to give sentence against him ; whereupon they were sore frighted , and desisted . In like sort , another time hee escaped their hands , by the meanes of the Citizens , Burgesses , and Commons of London , as the same Walsingham saith q ; and indeed the Londoners favoured him so much , that in all likelyhood it stayed the Prelats from farther proceeding against him . But that which Walsingham most admires , is this ; that Wickliffes opinions were not onely entertained in Cities and Townes , but even in the Vniversity of Oxford it selfe , where was ( as hee saith r ) the very height and top of wisedome and learning . Neither did some young Students onely follow him , but even the chiefe of the Vniversity , Master Robert Rigge Vice-chancellour , and the two Proctors tooke part with him ; as also Nicholas Herford , Iohn Ashton of M●rton-Colledge , Iohn Ashwarby of Oriel-Colledge , Pastour of St. Maries Church ; these being preachers , and Bachelours of Divinity ioyned with him , and were questioned on that behalfe . Thomas Walsingham specially notes s , that when the Archbishop of Canterbury had sent Wickliffes condemnation to Robert Rigge , Chancellour of the Vniversity of Oxford , to be divulged , hee appointed them to preach that day , whom hee knew to be most zealous followers of Wickliffe ; and among others , hee ordained one Philip Repington , a Chanon of Leycester , to preach on Corpus Christi day , who concluded his Sermon with these words ; for speculative doctrine ( saith hee ) such as the point of the Sacrament of the Altar is , I will set a barre on my lips , while God hath otherwise instructed or illuminated the hearts of the Cleargy . And afterwards , when Bulles came thicke from Rome , from the two Gregories the eleventh and twelfth , against Wickliffe and his doctrine ; the whole Vniversity gave a testimony in favour of him , under their seale , in their Congregation house in these words among others t . God forbid that our Prelats should have condemned a man of su●h honesty for an Heretique : but there is nothing that may more amply testifie the spreading of his Doctrine , than an Act of Parliament in the dayes of King Richard the second , where it is related u , that there were divers , preaching dayly , not onely in Churches and Church-yards , but also in Markets , Faires , and other open places , where a great congregation of people is , divers Sermons contayning heresies , and notorious errours for so they pleased to stile it in those dayes . PAP . Was Wickliffes doctrine followed after his death ? PROT. That which Wickliffe taught , was neither borne with him , nor died with him ; indeed if either the strength or policy of man could have made it away , it had not continued as it doth , to this day ; for in the yeere 1378. Pope Gregory the eleventh directed his Bull to the Vniversity of Oxford against the doctrine and Articles of that learned man ; even Rome it selfe ringing of his opinions in that Vniversity ; and Walsingam sayth , that the Pope taxed the Heads of the Vniversity for the sleight care they tooke in the suppressing of Wickliffes doctrine ; and the same Walsingham complaines , that those of the Vniversity were long time in suspence , whether they should receive the Popes Bull with honour , or reje●t it with reproach . Afterwards Gregory the twelfth directed another Bull to Oxford against Wickliffe . Thomas Arundell Archbishop of Canterbury , held a Councell at Oxford , and procured a visitation and sharpe Inquisition against the Heads of Colledges , Halls , and others suspected of Wicklevisme , or Lollardy : and this Constitution is to be seene in Linwood y . Now this was but a Provinciall Constitution ; in comes the Councell of Constance , and condemnes Wickliffe , causing his bones to be taken up z , and burned forty yeares after his death and buriall ; and this mandate of the Popes was executed by Richard Flemming Bishop of Lincolne , as Linwood testifieth , who lived at the time when this was done , to wit , in the yeere 1428. and thus was the canonicall censure passed upon Wickliffe , and his adherents ; now the secular power joyned with them ; for in the dayes of King Henry the fourth and fifth , there was made the Statute de Haeretico comburendo b , whereby the Wicklevists and Lollards were adjudged to be burned . After this King Edward the fourth sent mandatory letters to the Governours in Oxford , to make search for Wickliffes bookes , and to burne them ; and accordingly the Masters and Doctours did : Here is now both his bones and his bookes burnt ; they thought ( belike ) to make sure worke , and never to heare more of the man againe : but so it was , that out of his ashes , as it were , there arose another Phoenix and generation of Wicklevists which renued his memory & doctrine ; belike then there were many that followed his Doctrine ; or else why made they so much adoe ? what needed so many Statutes , Letters , and Proclamations ? so many Bulles , Councels , and Constitutions ? Indeede there were many in Oxford , and else-where , and them of good note , who imbraced Wickliffes opinions after his decease , as namely d , Lawrence Redman , master of Arts , David Sawtree , a Divine , William Iones , Thomas Brightwell , William Haulam a Civilian , Raphe Greenhurst Fellow of New-colledge , as also one Walter Bruite a Layman , mentioned by one William Wideford , a great Papist ; this Wideford writing against Wickliffe , mentions e a booke of his owne , sent to the Bishop of Hereford , in confutation of the booke of Walter Bruite . In a word , Wickliffes doctrine was not contained within England onely , but it gave light to other countries also ; insomuch as one Peter Paine f , who was Wickliffes Scholler ; and was sent with other Legats to the Councell at Basil , went into Bohemia , whither he carried with him some of Wickliffes bookes , some part where of Iohn Huss● translated into his mothers tongue , as Cochleus saith g ; who also reports h how one of the Bishops wrote to him out of England , that he had two Volumes of Wickliffes , which were almost as large as Saint Austins workes . PAP . What taught Wickliffe ? taught he as you doe ? PROT. Hee taught the same in substance , that we doe ; as may appeare by a Treatise i of Wickliffes Conformity with the now Church of England both in doctrine and discipline . Besides , we may take a taste of his Tenets out of his Treatise against the orders of Friers , wherein he saith as followeth . First Friars seyen , that their Religion founden on sinfull men , is more perfit than that Religion or order , which Christ himselfe made . Friars pursuen true Priests , and letten them to preach the Gospell . They pursuen Priests , for they reproven their sins , as God bids ; both to burne them , and the Gospell of ●hrist written in English , to most learning of our nation . Friars send out Ideots full of covetise to preach , not the Gospell ; but Chronicles , fables , and leasings , to please the people , and to rob them m . Friars n by letters of Fraternity deceiven the people in Faith , robben them of temporall goods , and maken the people to trust more in dead parchment , sealed with leasings , and in vaine prayers of Hypocrites , than in the helpe of God. Friars o perverten the right faith of the Sacrament of the Auter , and bringen a new heresie , they say it is an Accident withouten subje●t ; which heresie came never into the Church till the foule feende Satanas was unbounden after a thousand yeeres . Friars being made Bishops , robben men by extortion , as in punishing of sinne for money , and suffren men to lie in sin , getten of Antichrist false exemption . Friars q teachen Lords , and namely Ladies , that if they dyen in Francis habit , they shall never come in hell , for the vertue thereof . Men sayen , the Friars be not liegemen to the King , ne subject to his lawes . For though they stealen mens Children , ( to enter into their orders ) it is sayd there goes no law upon them . Friars s saien apertly , that if the King and Lords , and other men stonden thus against their begging , and other things ; Friars will goe out of the land , and come againe with bright heads : and looke whether this be treason or no ? Friart t faynen , that though an Abbot and all his Covent ben open traytours , yet the king may not take from them an halfe penny . Friars u also destroyen the Article of Christian faith , I beliefe a common or generall Church : for they teachen that th● men that shall be damned , be members of holy Church , and thus they wedden Christ and the divel together . Friars x by hypocrisie binden men to impossible things that they may not doe , for they binden them over the commandements of God , as they themselves say . Friars y wast the treasure of the land , forgetting Dispensations , vaine pardons , and priviledges . But of the pardon that men usen to day fro the Court of Rome z , they have no sikernes ( that is , certainty ) by holy writ , ne reason , ne ensample of Christ , or his Apostles . By this we see that Wickliffe stoutly opposed those Innovatours the Friers , who ( like their successours the Iesuites ) taught and practised obedience to another Soveraigne than the King ; persecution for preaching the Gospell ; exemption of Clea●gy-men ; the use of Legends in the Church , and reading of fables to the people ; pardons and indulgences ; the heresie of an accident without a subject ; singular and blind obedience ; and lastly , workes of Supererogation . Now whereas Wickliffe was reputed an Heretike , it is likely that this imputation was laid upon him especially by Friars , to whose innovations he was a professed enemy . PAP . Many exceptions are taken against Wickliffe , and namely , that hee held a ; That God ought to obey the divell . PROT. Our learned Antiquary of Oxford , Doctour Iames , hath made Wickliffes Apology , and answered such slanderous objections as are urged by Parsons , the Apologists and others . Now for the objection made , there is neither colour nor savour of truth in it ; there was no such thing objected to him in the Convocation at Lambeth ; neither can his adversaries shew any such words out of any booke written by Wickliffe , although he wrote very many . Indeed wee finde the quite contrary in his workes , saith his Apologist ; for Wickliffe saith b , That the divel is clepid ( that is , called ) Gods Angell , for he may doe nothing but at Gods suffering ; and that he serveth God in tormenting of sinfull men . The phrase indeed is strange , and if either he , or any of his Schollers used such speeches , their meaning ( haply ) was , that God not in his owne person , but in his creatures yeeldeth obedience to the devill ; that is , sometimes giveth him power over his creatures . PAP . Wickliffe taught , That Magistrates and Masters are not to be obeyed by their subjects and servants , so long as they are in deadly sinne . PROT. Even as light House-wives lay their bastards at honest mens doores , so you falsely father this ●is-begotten opinion on Wickliffe , which some of your owne side say d , belongs to one Iohn Parvi , a Doctour of Sorbone . And indeed in right it is your owne , inasmuch as you , upon colour and pretence of heresie in Princes , absolve subjects from their Allegeance , and raise them up in armes against their lawfull Soveraigne ; witnesse your bloody massacres in France , the death of the two last Henryes in France ; the untimely death of the Prince of Orange ; the many attempts and treasons against Queene Elizabeth ; as also that hellish designe of the Gun-powder treason . But supppose Wickliffe said so , yet his words might have a tollerable construction ; to wit , that a Prince being in state of mortall sinne , ceased to be a Prince any longer ; he ceased to be so in respect of any spirituall right or title to his place , that he could pleade with God , if he were pleased to take the advantage of the forfeiture ; but that in respect of men , he had a good title still in the course of mundane justice ; so that whosoever should lift vp his hand against him , offered him wrong f . Wickliffe indeede admonisheth the King , and all other inferiour Officers and Magistrates , as elsewhere he doth Bishops ; That he beareth not the sword in vaine , but to doe the office of a King , well and truely to see his Lawes ( rightly ) executed , wherein if hee faile , then he telleth him , that he is not properly and truely a King , that is , in effect g and operation ; which words are spoken by way of exhortation : but so farre was hee from mutiny himselfe , or perswading others to rebellion , that never any man of his ranke , for the times wherein he lived , did more stoutly maintaine the Kings Supremacy in all causes , as well as over all persons ecclesiasticall and civill , against all usurped and forreine Iurisdiction , and one of his reasons was this , that otherwise he should not be King over all England , but Regulus parvae partis h , a petty governour of some small parts of the Realme . PAP . Wickliffe taught i , that so long as a man is in deadly sinne , he is no Bishop , nor Prelate , neither doth he consecrate , or baptize . PROT. If Wickliffe said so , he sayd no more than the Fathers , and a Councell said before him . Saint Ambrose saith , Vnlesse thou embrace and follow the good-worke of a Bishop , a Bishop thou canst not be . The Provinciall Councell saith l , Whosoever after the order of Bishop or Priesthood shall say , they have beene defiled with mortall sinne , let them be remooved from the foresaid orders . The truth is , Wickliffe lived in a very corrupt time , and this made him so sharpely inveigh against the abuses of the Cleargy ; but abusus non tollit rei usum ; and yet Wickliffe writeth m against them that will not honour their Prelats . And hee elsewhere expresseth his owne meaning , that n it is not the name , but the life that makes a Bishop ; that o , if a man have the name of a Prelate , and doe not answere the reason thereof in sincerity of doctrine , and integrity of life ; but live scandalously and in mortall sinne , that he is but a nomine-tenus Sacerdos , a Bishop or Priest in name , not in truth : Neverthelesse his ministeriall Act may be availeable , for thus saith Wickliffe p , Vnlesse the Christian Priest be united unto Christ by grace , Christ cannot be his Saviour ; nec sine falsitate ●icit verba sacramentalia , Neither can he speake the Sacramentall words without lying , licèt prosint capacibus , Though the worthy receiver be hereby nothing hindred from grace . PAP . Wickliffe held , that it was not lawfull for any Ecclesiasticall persons to have any temporall possessions , or property in any thing , but should begge . PROT. This imputation is untrue ; for what were the lands and goods of Bishops , Cathedrall Churches , or otherwise belonging to Religious houses , which were given Deo & Ecclesi● , were they not temporall possessions ? and yet are rightfully held , according to Wickliff●s tenure by Ecclesiasticall Ministers ; and long might they and peaceably enjoy them for him , in as ample manner as ever they did , so long as they were well imployed according to the will and purpose of the Donours , willing nothing contrary to Gods Word . But for the lands belonging to so many Chaunteries , Abbeyes , Friaries , Priories , Monasteries , and other religious houses , hee was of opinion r , that Kings might dispossesse them of them , and give them genti facienti justitiam , to good and godly uses . Concerning the other part of the objection ; Wickliffe indeede commends a kind of Evangelicall poverty , and withall alleadgeth s that of Saint Paul to Timothy , That we are to be apaid , that is , contented , if we have lifelode , that is , living , and to be hiled , that is , covered withall , to wit , with food and raiment ; neverthelesse he did not debarre Ministers from actuall having , but from affecting the things of the world , which were to be renounced per cogitationem & affectum t , in mind and affection , as he saith . Lastly , touching begging , he was so farre from joyning himselfe to the begging ●ri●r● , and their order , that he wrote a set Treatise against their order , as also he put up a petition to the Parliament against them . u PAP . Wickliffe and his disciples went bare-footed , and basely clothed in course russet garments downe to the heeles , PROT. Wickliffe went well apparrelled , and kept a good table of that which was his owne ; insomuch as hee professeth x , that Hee feareth not any thing will be so much layd to his charge , as that hee spends that in good fare and apparrell , which might be bestowed on the poore . PAP . Wickliffe held b , that tithes were meere Almes , and that for the lewdnesse of the Priests , the parishioners might detayne their tithes at at their pleasure . PROT. Wickliffe lived in a time wherein he saw tithes , oblations , and the Churches revenues spent in riot and luxury , the cure of soules neglected , and the poore unreleived ; and seeing this great abuse of tithes , hee let some inconsiderate speeches fall touching tithes : so that whereas hee seemeth to be against tithes , it is to be understood against tithes , as then they were abused by Friers ; for Friers then had power from the Pope to appropriate tithes to their Covents , by which meanes tithes came into their possession . This thing Wickliffe thought unlawfull , and would have had tithes reduced to their ancient use againe . Besides , Wickliffe would nether have tithes taken from the Church , nor yet from the Incumbent but in some cases : not from the Church , for his rule was c , that prediall tithes were not to be taken from the Churc● , since they belong to the same ; yea , he cha●rges the people in ●alutem animae d , upon paine of their salvation , to pay their tithes du●ly and ●ruely unto their Parson : neither would he have them paid to a good Minister onely , but to others also e , unlesse the fact were v●ry ●candal●us and notorious ; and thereof hee would ●ot have the people , but the Prelats and superiors to judge and censure : And in case the party delinquent be either so vicious a man of life or doctrine , as that there is no hope of his amendment , or else hath committed some such fact as wilfull murder or Treason , whereby he is ipso facto depriveable in law , the tithes are not to be quite taken away from f the Church , but to be sequestred , as it were for the next Incumbent ; and he gives instance in Elies sonnes g . PAP . Wickliffe taught h , that All things come to passe by absolute necessity , which is Stoicall . PRO● . Wickliffe telleth us i , that Gods promises and threatnings are conditionall ; and that as God hath appointed the end , so he hath appointed the meanes of our salvation ; but notwithstanding he grants such a necessity , yet he addes k , quamvis omnia futura de necessitate eveniant , Deus tamen vult quod bon● servi● suis eveniant , per medium quo oratur . PAP . He condemned lawfull Oathes , savouring therein , saith Os●ander , of Anabaptisme l . PROT. Had Osiander seene Wickliffes Latin exposition vpon the third Commandment m , and his booke of the truth of the Scripture , or his treatise against A●quivocation ; he would have beene of another mind ; for therein he plainely shewes the contrary ; condemning equivocall propositions o , whether with Oath , or withou● Oath ; willing men not for a world of worlds p , or for the salvation of his owne , or anothers soule , to lie and equivocate . And elsewhere he saith q , God teaches to sweare by him in neede , and not by his creatures : whereby it appeares that Wickliffe was no usuall dissemb●er of his faith , as Mr. Brerely would have it . PAP . Wickliffe r inveied against the Church , for that hee had beene deprived by the Archbishop of Canterbury , from a certaine Benefice . PROT. Because he was deprived of his Benefice , he wrote against the Church ; by the like reason , because hee was preferred to another Benefice in Leicester-shire where h● dyed ; therefore he should not have inveighed against the Church . But I should thinke that the great Iohn of Gaunt , Duke of Lancaster , might have helped him to a small head-ship of Canterbury Colledge in Oxford . For Pars●ns confesseth that Wickliffe was in great favour with the Duke , and publikely borne out by him ; and the Duke ( as th● same Parsons saith s ) Governed all in the later dayes of his Father King Edward the third , and was also in good favour with his Nephew King Richard the second , all the time that Wickliffe lived ; so that in all likelyhood he might have helpt him to the Bishopricke of Worcester . Besides , if Wickliffe ( as Parsons saith t ) contemned all temporall goods , a●d adjoyned himselfe to the begging Friers ; what made him then affect the Bishopricke of Worcester ? Well , but the missing of these places provoked him to inveigh against the Church ; so was Ierome provoked by the Cleargy of Rome , and this sharpned his stile against them u ; and yet are not Saint Hi●romes workes any whit the more misliked . Lastly , hee inveighed not against the Church ; for he protesteth that he did as neere as hee could both write and speake , and doe all things , ad Honorem Dei & utilitatem Ecclesiae x , for the glory of God , and the benefit of his Church . The occasion of Wickliffes discontent I finde to be this y Simon Langham , Archbishop of Canterbury , sequestred the fruites of the Benefice of Pagham from Canterbury Colledge ; and withall molested the Schollers there , intending to displace them all , and to put in Monkes , which in the end he brought to passe . Now Wickliffe was one of them that were thus displaced , having withstood the Archbishop in this businesse with might and maine ; but by the Popes favour , and the Archbishops power , the Monkes overbore Wickliffe and his fellowes , PAP . You have spoken enough of Wickliffe , and his Disciples ; what were those Lollards you mentioned ? PRO● . They were a company of true and godly professours ; ●ome have conceited them to have beene called Lollards of Lollium , cockle or darnell , and so saith the glosse in Linwood z ; as also in the Squires prologue in Chaucer . I smell a Loller in the w●nde ( quoth hee ) abideth for Gods digne passion , for mee shall have a predication , this Loller here will preach us s●mewhat — here shall hee not preach , here shall he no Gospell glose , ne teach ; he beleeueth all in the great God ( qu●th he ) he would sowne some difficulty , or spring cockle in our cleare corne . But they were called Lollards from one Raynard Lollard , who at the first was a Franciscan Monke , and an enemy to the Waldenses , but yet a man carried with a sanctified desire to finde the way of salvation . Hee afterwards taught the doctrine of the Waldenses , was apprehended in Germany by the Monkes Inquisitours , and being delivered to the secular power , was burnt at Cologne . He wrote a Commentary upon the Apocalyps , wherein he applied many things to the Pope as to the Roman Antichrist . This was he of whom the faithfull in England were called Lollards ; where he taught , witnesse that Tower in London which at this present is called by his name Lollards Tower , where the faithfull that profe●sed his religion were imprisoned . Iohn l● Maire in the third part of the difference of Schismes b , puts him in the ranke of those holy men that have foretold by divine revelation many things that have come to passe in his time ; such as were Boccace , Saint Vincent of Valence ; of the order of preaching Friers ; Io●chim Abbot of Ga●abria ; to them he adjoyneth the Frier R●ynard Lollard . And so I proceede to the severall points in question . Of the Scriptures suffici●n●y and Canon . VVIckliffe saith c , that Christs law sufficeth by it selfe to rule Christs Church ; that a Christian 〈◊〉 well under●tanding it , may thence gather sufficient knowledge during his pilgrimag● h●re on earth . Lyra upon those words in the Gospell , They have Moses and the Prophets ; let them heare them , Luke 16.29 . makes this inference d , Moses he taught mor●lity , and what was our duty to doe ; the Prophets taught mysteries , and what we are to beleeve ; Et ista sufficiunt ad salutem , and these are sufficient for our salvation ; and therefore it followes , Heare them : so that hee reduceth all to two heads ; the Agenda , or practicall part● and the Credenda , or Articles of the Creede , and these essentiall necessaries contained in the Scriptures , he makes sufficient to salvation . Amongst the sundry opinions which Ockam reckons vp , this is one , sayth Ockam e , That onely those verities are to be esteemed Catholike , and such as are necessarily to be beleeved for the attaining of salvation , which either expressely are delivered in ●cripture , or by necessary consequence may be inferred from things so expressed . Richard Fitz-Raphe , Archbishop of Armagh , and Primate of Ireland , saith , It is defined in generall Councels , that there are two and twenty Authenticall bookes of the Old Testament . f Nicholas Lyra the converted Iew , is plentifull in this argument ; Now that I have by Gods helpe g ( saith he ) written upon the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture , beginning at Genesis , and so going on to the end ; trusting to the helpe of the same God , I intend to write upon those other bookes that are not Canonicall , such as are the booke of Wisedome , Ecclesiasticus , Iudith , Tobias , and the bookes of Macchabes ; and withall addeth , that it is to be considered , that these bookes which are not Canonicall , are received by the Church , and read in the same for the information of manners ; yet is their authority thought to be weake to prove things that are in controversie . And the same Lyra writing vpon the first of Esdras , the first Chapter , saith , That though the bookes of Tobias , Iudith , and the Maccabes be Historicall bookes , yet he intendeth for the present to passe by them , and not to comment on them , and he gives his reason ; namely , quia non sunt de Canone apud Iudaeos , nec apud Christianos , because they are not in the Canon , neither with the Iewes , nor with the Christians . Wickliffe also held h , that there are but two and twenty Authenticall bookes of the Old Testament . Of Communion under both kinds ; and number of Sacraments . THe custome of communicating in both kinds , was not abolished in the beginning of this Age , but was retained in certaine places , especially in Monasteries , untill the yeere of our Lord thirteene hundred and more . Thus writeth Cassander . Beatus Rhenanus saith , that Conradus Pellicanus , a man of wonderfull sanctity and learning , did finde in the first constitution of the Carthusians , That they were forbidden to possesse any vessels of price , besides a silver Chalice and a pipe , whereby the lay-people might sucke the blood of our Lord. Durand their profound Doctor denieth l Matrimony to be a Sacrament properly so named , and of the same nature with the rest , or to give grace . Robert Holcot our countrey-man , denied m that Confirmation was from Christs Institution ; now Bellarmine saith n , that Christ onely can institute a Sacrament o , Alphonsus à Castro telleth us , and that from the testimony of Iodocus Clichtoveus , and Thomas Walden , ( a bitter adversary of Wickliffes ) that Wickliffe held extreame unction , or annealing , was not a Sacrament . Of the Eucharist . Ockam saith p , There are three opinions of Transubstantiation , of which the first supposeth a conversion of the Sacramentall Elements ; the second , an annihilation ; the third affirmeth the bread to be in such sort transubstantiated into the body of Christ , that it is no way changed in substance , or substantially converted into Christs body , or doth cease to be , but onely that the body of Christ in every part of it , becomes present in every part of the bread . This opinion he saith , the Master of Sentences mentioneth , not much disliking it ; yet it is not commonly holden . Their owne Proctours and Canonists , Hostiensis and Gaufridus tell us q , that there were divers in those dayes , who taught , that the substance of bread did remaine ; and this opinion , say they , was not to be rejected . Durand was of opinion r , That the materiall part of the consecrated bread was not converted ; insomuch that Bellarmine professeth s , that saying of Durand is hereticall , although he is no heretike , because he is ready to submit to the judgement of the Church . Wickliffe saith t , that Friers perverten the right faith of the Sacrament of the Auter , and bringen in a new heresie of an Accident withouten subject ; and whence Holy writ sayes openly , that this Sacrament is bread that wee breaken , and Gods body ; they sayen , that it is nother bread nor Gods body , but accident withouten subject , and nought ; and thus they leaven holy writ , and taken new heresie on Christ and his Apostles , and on Austin , Ierom , Ambrose , Isidore , and other Saints , and the Court of Rome , and all true Christian men , that holden the faith of the Gospell . Now for his owne opinion , he expresseth it in these termes u , that the body of Christ was really & truely in the Sacrament , in his kind , that is , Sacramentaliter , & figuraliter by way of Sacramēt , & figuratively ; to wit x ; as Saint Iohn Baptist figuratively was Helias , and not personally . So he saith y of the cōsecrated hoast , that it was Christs body in figure , and true bread in nature ; or which is all one , true bread naturally , and Christs body figuratively . And Wickliffe is very confident in his opinion ; for he saith z , that the third part of the Cleargy of England , would be ready to defend the same upon paine of losing of their lives , cum non fuerit materia martyrij plus laudanda , there being no better cause of Martyrdome . Of Images and Prayer to Saints . TO speake properly ( saith Durand ) a the same reverence and respect which is due unto the Samplar , or person represented , is not to be given to the Image , signe , or Representee , neither ought the imag● to be adored with Latria , ( or divine worship ) for any reference or relation it hath to the thing represented thereby . Holcot also a principall Schooleman , saith b ; No adoration is due to an Image , neither is it lawfull to worship any image ; and his reason is this ; Latria , or divine worship , is due onely unto God. But the image of God is not God , therefore Latria , or divine worship is not due unto an Image : Otherwise ( saith he ) The Creator and the creature should both be adored with one honour . By this wee see the Tenet of Thomas Aquinas controlled , who taught c , that the Crucifixe and Image of Christ was to be worshipped and adored with the selfe-same honour , to wit , of Latria , that Christ Iesus himselfe was to be honoured with . Durand also held d , that it was utterly unlawfull to picture or represent the Trinity , or God , otherwise than as in Christ he tooke our flesh , and was found among us as man. Wickliffe was of opinion e , that it were better to banish Images cleane out of the Church ; and to this purpose he alleadgeth that noted saying of Epiphanius ; and according to his doctrine not long after f William N●vill , L●wis Clifford , Thomas Latimer , and Iohn Montague turned out Images out of certaine Chappels within their Iurisdictions . Concerning prayer to Saints , whereas wee hold it vaine to pray to the Saints deceased , unlesse we might be assured that they heard and understood our prayers , and beheld the secret thoughts of our heart ; some have conceited the glasse of the Trinity , according to that of Gregory ; He that seeth God , who seeth all things , cannot but see all things in him ; but this saying is rejected by Hugo de S. Victore , as wee heard in the last age , as also by Occham g , Scotus , and sundry other excellent men . It is true indeede , that they see God face to face . 1. Corinth . 13.12 . yet this Faciall vision maketh not the blessed Saints to know all things . Every one which beholdeth the Sunne , doth not behold every thing which the Sunne effecteth and enlightneth . The Saints know according to the capacity of creatures , and so farre forth onely as it pleaseth God , and is sufficient for their happinesse : so that this glasse of the Trinity doth not represent things according to the manner of a Naturall Glasse ; but as Speculum voluntarium ; such a Glasse as maketh reflection of such notices as God is pleased to manifest more or lesse , when , in what manner , and to what persons himselfe pleaseth . Gregorius Ariminensis resolveth peremptorily h , that neither Saints nor Angels know the secrets of our hearts , but that this is reserved as peculiar to God alone . Besides , there wanted not some , who in this darke age of the Papacy , held it superfluous to pray to the Saints ; insomuch that Iohn Sharpe in the Vniversity of Oxford publikely disputed these two questions , of praying to Saints , and of praying for the dead i , especially , because it was esteemed by some famous men , and not without probability , that such suffrages and prayers were superfluous in the Church of God , although some other wise men thought the contrary . Wickliffe also is noted by Bellarmine k , for one that opposed Invocation of Saints . Wickliffe indeede saith as followeth ; It seemeth to be a very great folly to leave the fountaine which is at hand , and fetch water a farre off out of a muddy poole . Who would make a Scurra , or vaine fellow his spokesman to procure him accesse and audience in the Kings Court , the King himselfe being more courteous and easilier to be intreated , than the mediatour whom the petitioner used ? where Bellarmine m bids us , by the way observe how Wickliffe● compared the Saints deceased to scurrilous persons , and troubled waters ; this indeed is a shrewd imputation , but Wickliffe presently expresseth his owne meaning ; saying n , The Saints in Heaven although they be no scurrilous persons , but incorporated into Christ by the free mercy of their Saviour ; yet they are lesse in comparison of him , than any meane Groome , ●ester , or Para●ite is in comparison of an earthly King. Now what great harme is there in this comparison ? Iob compared man , Yea a righteous man , to a worme ; even the sonne of man which is but a worme . Iob 25. v. 6. Yea but the word Scurra , is an odious terme ; so it is indeed as now adayes it is used . The vulgar Interpreter used the word Scurra , and Lyra expounds it de vilibus perfonis , of meane persons ; and our English translates it , vaine fellowes . Wehn David daunced before the Arke , Michal sayd to him , The King uncovered himselfe to day in the eyes of his servants , as one of the vaine fellowes openly uncovereth himselfe . Howsoever , were it that p Wickliffe used the Latine word Scurra , in a mollified sence , or the word Knave in the English. Time we know is the Emperour of words , and in processe thereof some of them degenerate from their first institution . Idiota at first was used for a private man , now we take it for a foole , for an Ideot . The Wise-men that came from the East , were called Magi , Math. 2.1 . Now wee may not terme them Magicians , for that were to call them Sorcerers : if one should call a King a Tyrant , it were treason , or a Wise woman Saga , hee would be hardly thought of : so among the Latines , Fur , a Theefe , when before it was a Servant . Quid faciant Domini audent cùm talia Fures ? When * Slaves thus saucy are , What will their Masters dare ? In like sort , the word knave sounded not formerly so odiously as now adayes it doth ; for Chaucer q used it for a Servant . Goe up ( quoth he ) unto his * knave , Cleape at his doore , * and knocke fast with a stone . And in the same sence it is used by Sir Philip Sidney in his Arcadia . If that my man must praises h●ve , What then must I that keepe the knave ? Now , to proceede , Wicliffe in the other comparison alludes to that of the Prophet ; r They have forsaken me , the fountaine of living waters , and hewed them out Cisterns , broken ●esternes that can hold no water : and so indeed are the purest creatures in comparison of God ; for ( as Iob saith ) he charged his Angels with folly . Iob 4.18 . Yea , the heavens are not cleane in his sight . Iob 15.15 . So that Wickliffes comparison was very fit , when he said the Saints were but like troubled waters , and them remote , and a farre off , in respect of God , who is the pure well-spring , and at hand , for as the Psalmist saith s ; The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him ; yea , all such as call upon him faithfully . Of Iustification , and Merits . Chemninitius hath collected a number of sayings out of the Fathers and Schoolemen for proofe of Iustification by faith onely , and amongst the rest , for this fourteenth Century he produceth t the testimonie of Nicholas Lyra. Wickliffe also taught u , that Salvation● that , the merit of Christ is able by it selfe , to redeeme all mankind from Hell , and that this sufficiencie is to be understood without any other cause concurring . PAP . Master Brereley saith , that the Doctrine of Iustification by onely faith , was unknowne to Wickliffe . Prot. Apol. Tract . 2. cap. 2. sect . 4. subdivision , 2. PROT. By that which hath beene alleadged , it appeares it was knowne to him ; but what if it were not so fully knowne to him ? Wickliffe was a long time kept in the mist of popery , so that he could not by and by discerne the truth in all points ; we blame him not for that he saw no more : we blesse God for it , that he saw so much as he did , specially in this darke time of the papacie . PAP . Walden saith x , that Wickliffe defended Humane Merits . PROT. The same Friar saith y that the Wiclevists overthrew the point of freewill ; if they tooke away freewill , how held they humane merits ? D. Iames shewes out of Wickliffes workes , that he refuted the doctrine of merit , specially in his Commentaries upon the Psalmes , where hee beareth downe z , those proud Pharisees , which said , that God did not all for them , but thinke that their merits helpeth . He taught , that we are all sinners , not onely from our mothers wombe , but in our mothers wombe ; so that we cannot so much as thinke a good thought b , unlesse Iesu the Angel of the great Councell send it ; nor performe a good worke c , unlesse it be properly his good workes d , His mercie comes before us , that wee receive grace , and followeth us helping and keeping us in grace : he concludes , that it is good onely to trust in God : was this man a Pelagian ? Frier Walden would make men beleeve he was one . Howsoever , there be other of our Countriemen , Bradwardine , Occham , and Holcot , men of speciall note in this age , who speake excellently in this point . Bradwardine , in his defence of the cause of God against the Pelagians of his time , disputeth this point at large shewing ; f that Merit is not the cause of everlasting reward : and that when the Scriptures and Doctors doe affirme , that God will reward the good for their good merits ( or workes : ) Propter did not signifie the cause properly : but improperly , either the cause of knowing it , or the order , or the disposition of the subject thereunto . Occham saith , g No act done in puris naturalibus , or proceeding from any created cause whatsoever , can be meritorious , but by the free promise , and acceptation of God. Holcot saith , that our workes have this worth , or value in them , not naturally , as if there were so great goodnesse in the nature or substance of the merit that everlasting life should be due unto it● but legallie , in regard of Gods ordinance and appointment : even h as a little peece of copper of it owne nature or naturall value , is not worth so much as a loafe of bread , but by the ordinance and institution of the Prince it is worth so much . Richard Fitzraufe afterward Archbishop o● Armagh in Ireland , saith i that the reward is rendred , not for the condignitie of the worke , but for the promise , and so for the justice of the rewarder . Gregorius Ariminensis concludeth peremptorily , k that no Act of man , though issuing from never so great charitie , meriteth of condignitie from God , either eternall life , or yet any other reward ; whether eternall or temporall ; and he giveth his reason out of the Apostle , 1 Cor. 4.7 . quoniam quilibet talis actus est donum dei , juxta illud Apostoli , 1 Cor. 4. because every such act is Gods gift , every such worke is the gift of God , and what hast thou , that thou hast not received ? and if thou hast rec●ived it , why dost thou glory , as if thou hadst not received it ? Durand also is most resolute in this point l , that which is conferred rather out of the liberalitie of the giver than out of the due of the worke , doth not fall within the compasse of merit of Condignitie , strictly and properly taken . But whatsoever we receive of God , whether it be grace or glory , whether temporall or spirituall good , whatsoever good worke we have before done for it , yet we r●ceive the same rather out of Gods liberalitie , than out of ●he debt or due of t●e worke . Therefore nothing at all falleth within the compasse of Merit of Condignitie , so taken And m the cause hereof is , ( saith he ) because both that which we are , and that which we have , whether they bee good acts or good habits , or the use of them , is wholy in us by Gods liberalitie , freely giving and preserving the same . Now because none is bound by his owne free gift to give more , but the receiver rather is more bound to him that giveth : therefore by the good habits , and by the good acts or uses which God hath given us , God is not bound to us by any debt of Iustice to give any thing more , so as if he did not give it he should be unjust ; but we are rather bound to God. And to thinke or say the contrary , is rashnesse or blasphemie : and yet the Rhemists in their Annotations upon the sixth chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrewes and the tenth verse , goe very farre in the contrary . THE FIFTEENTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 1400. to 1500. The Benefit of Printing . PAPIST . WWhat say you of this fifteenth Age ? PROT. In this Age knowledge increased by the meanes of Printing , which was found out at Strasburg in Germany by one Iohn Guttenburg : And indeed the benefit of Printing was great ; for hereby the languages were div●lged , bookes were farre easilier now dispersed , than formerly the Manuscripts could be , and learning and good letters were generally communicated . Besides , that in this Age God raised up divers Worthies , who by their confessions , writings , and martyrdome , witnessed the truth of the Gospell , as namely Iohn Husse , and Hierome of Prague . PA. Were Hus and Hierome men of learning , and a godly life , and withall were they Martyrs , as you would seeme to make them ? PRO. Indeed they bitterly inveighed against the ambition , pride , covetousnesse and negligence of the Clergie ; they urged the necessitie of oftner preaching then was usuall in those times , and desired to have the Communion in both kinds , according to the ancient custome of the Primitive Church , and could not bee induced simply and absolutely to condemne the Articles of Wickliffe a , but thought many of them might carry a good sense ; and that the Author of them was a man that carried a good mind , howsoever hee might faile in some things ; and for these and the like tenets and reproofes they were burnt at Constance contrary to the publike faith , and safe conduct given by the Emperour , yea , Aeneas Sylvius ( afterwards Pope Pius the second ) saith expresly b ; It was thought good by the perswasion of Sigismund the Emperour , that Iohn and Hierome should bee called to the Councell of Constance , so that they came not of their owne accord , nor yet without their warrantie and safe conduct : but the Fathers of the Counsell dealt ill with them , breaking the faith of the Emperour , and dispencing with the breach of his safe-conduct , as being of no force without theirs ; because ( forsooth ) faith was not to bee kept with Heretikes ( as th●y vainely alleadged ; ) therefore these poore men must have no priviledge of their Passe-port ; the Emperour ( saith Campian c in a flourish of his ) Sealed their Passe , but the Christian world , to wit the Councell of Constance greater than Caesar , brake up the seale , and voided the Imperiall warran● , notwithstanding the Emperour had both called the Councell , and in a Citie of his own● , where hee onely had authority ; and Wenceslaus King of Bohemia , at the request of the Councell , sent thither Iohn Hus , under the safe-conduct of the Emperour . Now what Master Hus his learning was , his workes yet remaining doe testi●ie . Besides , hee translated the Scriptures into the Boh●mian tongue , which occasioned ( as Cochleus saith ) d Artisans and Tradesmen to reade them ; insomuch as they could dispute with the Priests ; yea , their women were so skilled , as one o● them made a booke , and the Priests of the Thab●rites , were so skilled in arguing out of the Scripture , that one of them named Rokyzana , who had beene present at the Counsell at Basil , undertooke e to dispute with Capistranus , a great and learned Papist , touching Communion in both kinds , and that out of the holy Scriptures , the ancient Doctors , and the Churches Canons and Constitutions , as also from the force of naturall reason . Aen●as Sylvius saith , f That Hus was an eloquent man , and that in the worlds estimation , hee had gained a great opinion of holinesse . Hierome was a man of that admirable eloquence , learning and memory , that Poghius the Florentine Historian and Oratour admired his good parts ; and the same Poghius being an eye-witnesse of his triall at the Councell of Constance g saith ; He was a man worthy of eternall memory , that there was no just cause of death in him ; that hee spake nothing in all his triall unworthy of a good man ; yea hee doubteth whether the things objected against him were true or no. Besides , he was so resolute at his death , that when the Tormentor kindled the fire behind his backe , he bid him make it in his sight : For if I had h feared the fire ( said he ) I had never come hither , and so whiles the fire was a making , hee sung Psalmes , and went cheerefully to his death . The like resolution was in Iohn Husse at his death : for whereas his enemies made a crowne of paper with three ugly devils painted therein , and this title , Arch-heretike set over ; when Iohn Husse saw it , he said , i My Lord Iesus Christ for my sake were a Crowne of thornes , why should not I then for his sake , weare this light Crowne , bee it never so shamefull ? I will doe it , and that willingly , and so hee died constantly ; and so indeed the storie reports , k that they went to the stake as cheerefully , as it had beene to a banquet . Iohn Husse may seeme to have had some propheticall inspiration : for at his death hee prophesied , saying , l You roast the Goose now , but a Swan shall c●me after mee , and hee shall escape your fire : Now Husse in the Bohemian tongue signifieth a Goose , and Luther a Swan , and this Sw●n succeeded him just an hundred yeares after : fo● so these two blessed servants of God prophesied saying , m Wee cite you all to make answer , a●d after an hundred yeares to give an account of this your doing un●o God : and acco●di●gly as they foretold , it came to passe : for they suffered martyrdome in the yeare 1416. and just an hundred yeares af●er , to wit , in the yea●e 1516. the Lord raysed up Luther , who ind●ed called the Pope and his doctrine to a reckoning . Vpon this propheticall speech of Iohn Husse , there was money coined i● Bohemia , with this inscrip●ion in Latine on the one side , n Cintum revolutis annis Deo respondebitis et mihi , anno 1416 Hie onymus condemnatus : that is , After an hundred yeares you shall answer to God and to me : and on the o●her side of the plate was engraven , Credo unam ●ss● sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam , anno 1415. Io. Husse , I beleeve one holy Catholike Church . PA Did Husse and his followers teach as you doe ? PRO For substance of doctrine , they taught as wee doe ; their enemies indeed misreported their doctrine , and charged them with that they never held : insomuch as Husse solemnely protested , even at the point of death , o That hee never held those Articles which the false witnesses deposed against him : but held , and taught , and wrote the contra●y ; taking it upon his death , that hee taught nothing but the truth of the Gospell , which hee would then seale with his blood . Now touching their doctrine , we are driven to tak● the sca●tling of their opinions from the pens of t●eir adv●rsaries , by whom wee perceive that it is very p●ob●ble , 〈◊〉 Hussi●es were instructed , and much helped by Wickl●●ss bookes ; and accordingly wee find , that both Aen●●s Sylvius p and Cochleus report , that the meanes whe●●by ●he Bohemi●ns came to know the doctrine of Wickl●ffe was , for that a certaine noble man studying in Oxford , carried thence with hi● into Bohemia Wi●klifs bookes , de Realibus universalibus As if it had beene some rare jewell : and Cochleus saith , q That as a Bohemian brought first into Bohemia Wickliffes bookes , de Realibus uni●er●alibus , So there was afterwards one Peter Paine● a Scholler of Wickliffes , who after the death of his Master came ●lso into Bohemia , and brought with him W●●kliffes bookes , which were in quantity as great as Saint Au●●ines Workes ; many of which bookes Husse did aft●rwards translate into their mother tongue . Bellarmine r j●ynes the Hussites● and Waldenses together , as holding the same points of doctrine , and reproving the same abuses of Rome . And Platina , saith , s that H●sse and Hierome were condemned in the Councell of Constance , as being followers of Wickliffe . Aeneas Silvius saith , t the Hussites embraced the p●ofession of the Waldenses : Now wee have already showne the tenets of the Waldenses and Wickliffe . But to come to particulars ; b●sides , the Hussites , there were others also of his disciples , which were called Thaborites , u of the place Thabor , which their Generall Zisca built as a Ci●ie of refuge for his men . These Thaborites dis●ented more from the Church of Rome , a●d came indeed neerer to the puritie of the Gospell , then the rest of the Hussites . There is in Cochleus a confession of faith , made by one Iohn Pezibram a Bohemian , x who speaking of these Thaborites , recordeth these following to have beene some of their tenets ; namely , That materiall Bread remaines in the Sacrament , and herein they were very confident , insomuch as Procopius one of their Governours said● y That if an hundred Doctors should hold the contrary , hee would t●ll them to their face they were all mistaken . Th●y held , z That the Saints now triumphant are not to be prayed unto . H●sse his schollers after his death brake a downe Images in Churches and Monasteries . Prateolus saith , b They denied Purgatory , and by consequent , Prayer for the dead . They maintained Communion in both kinds to be administred to the Lay-people . They held c That Christ is the head of the Church , and not the Pope ; as also that the Pope might erre , and that divers Popes had beene * Heretikes . They held d The holy Scriptures to bee the Iudge in point of controversie . Lastly , Husse was condemned by the Councell of Constance , for holding , That the Congregation of the Predestinates , and Elect , were the Church of God , which yet was the sel●e same doctrine which Gregory the Great taught : For hee held the Church of God to consist of right Beleevers , saying , f That Christ according to the grace of his fore knowledge , hath built his holy Church of Saints , which shall continue for ever : and that g All the Elect are contained within the compasse and circuit of the Church , and all the Reprobates are without : because h they doe but only in outward shew come ●o the kingdome of grace : So that Gregory saith as well as Husse , That the Elect onely are of the Church . Now ( as learned Doctor Field saith ) i This was the meaning of Wickliffe , Husse , a●d others ; who say , that the Elect only are of the Church , defining the Church to bee the multitude of the Elect ; not for that they thinke them only to pertaine to the Church , and no others ; but because they onely pertaine unto it principally , fully , effectually , and finally ; and in them onely is found that which the calling of grace ( whence the Church hath all her being ) intendeth , to wit , such a conversion to God as is joyned with finall perseverance , whereof others failing and comming short , they are only in an inferiour , and more imperfect sort , said to bee of the Church . PA. Did the doctrine of Husse , and his followers continue any long time ? PRO. It continneth even unto this day ; for Cochleus in the yeare 1●34 , Wisheth k that he may see the remainders of the Hussites to r●turne to the Church , and the Germans to cast out all n●w s●cts ; whereby it is cleere , that Husses doctrine was sensibly and apparantly continued not onely unto the dayes of Luth●r ( who began not to show himselfe till the yeare 1517 ) but even after his time also . PA. Had the Hussites any Bishops or Priests of their owne , lawfully calle● ? PRO. Huss● and H●erome were Priests themselves , and whiles they lived they had Priests and Preachers ; and after their death , the●r follower , l Got them a Bishop , who was Suff●agan to the Archbishop of Prague , and by him th●y put i●to holy Orders , as many Clerkes as they would , which thing the Archbishop tooke so ill , that h●e suspended his S●ffragan . But it was not long af●er , that Conradus the Archbishop himselfe , became a follower of Husse likewise ; and under this Conrad President of the Convocation , the Hussites m held a Councel at Prague , and there they compileda Conf●ssion of their Faith , which the said Archbishop and divers Barons of Bohemia did afterwards resolu●ely maintaine . Besides Sigismund the Emperour ( in a treaty with the Bohemians ) n Granted that the Bishops should promote to holy Orders the Bohemians , even Hussites which were of the Vniversitie of Prague . PA. Were there many that followed Husse , and were they of the better sort , or onely some meane persons ? PRO. They were neither few , nor base : had they beene few , what needed the Pope call the great Counc●l of o Constance against them ? What needed Pope Mart●n the fift p publish and proclaime a Croysado against them ? promising remission of sinne to all such as did either fight against them , or contributed towards the warres . Our rich Cardinal Henry Beaufort was sent into q Germany by the Pope in the yeare 1429 , to raise forces against the Hussites in Bohemia . Cochleus saith , r There were forty thousand German Horsemen gathered together to destroy them ; but upon their approach the Germans turned their backes and fled , not without some secret judgement of God as he thinkes . Sylvius●aith ●aith , s There were three severall Armies levied against the Hussites , entring Bohemia in three places ; but ( as th● story saith ) Non visum hostem fugerunt , they ●led before they did see the enemie ; and againe the second tim● , Priusquam hostis ullus daretur in conspectus , foedissima coepta fuga ; they fled away with shame , before any enemy came to fight , and left their Tents to the Bohemians : insomuch as Iulian Cardinal of Saint Angelo , marvailes exceedingly at this their sodaine feare , and shamefull flight . When Pope Eugenius had sent the same Cardinal Iulian his Legate to the Councel of Basil , and presently after sent him commandment to dissolve it ; Iulian laied open unto him by letters , how great an injurie he should doe himselfe ; and brought many reasons against it , among others this , that the Bohemians , who had beene called thither , would by good right , say : t Is not heere the finger of God to bee seene ? Behold Armies have so often fled from before them , and now the Vniversall Church also fl●●th behold they can neither be overcome with Armes , nor by L●arning ; this must needs appeare a miracle wrought by God , to declare that their opinion is true , and ours false . Neith●r were the Hussites any such meane persons , for e●en the Nobles of Bohemia , sent two solemne Ambas●ages u to the Councel of Constance , in the behalfe of Husse ; and when the Councell neglected their request , and dealt ill with them , burning their Pastour Husse , notwithstanding his safe conduct given him by the Emp●rour ; then indeed they defended themselves und●r th● conduct of Iohn Z●scay their Ge●erall , who at one time led fo●●● tho●sand ●ouldiers into the field , x and had such successe in his enterp●ises , that Aeneas Sylvius reports of him , That eleven times in fought battailes , hee returned Conquerour out of the field . Yea , Cochleus wondereth at the strange successe he had , saying , y That scant any historie of the Greekes , or Latins , or Hebrewes doth mention such a Generall a Zisca was . Now for th●ir visible Congregations , there needes no other Testimonie than this ; when the Councel of Constance had robbed them of their Minister Husse , and nimmed from them the blessed Cup of the Eucharist , which Christ had bequeathed unto them ; then the Bohemians much affected with this ill dealing , Ass●mbled themselves together neere unto Thabor Castle , and there to the number of thirtie thousand , z having three hundred tables erected in the fields for that purpose , they received the Eucharist in both kinds . PA. Master Brerely saith , a The Hussites rose up in armes , and were seditious ; and Father Parsons saith , b That Zisca was a rebell against his king VVenceslaus . PRO. The Reverend and laborius Deane of Exceter , Master Sutcliffe saith , c That the crime of rebellion is rather to be imputed to the Romish Clergie , and their adherents . For Subinco the Archbishop of Prague stirred up Sigismund against the king , as Sylvius testifieth . Hist. Bohem. c. 35. And that king was taken prisoner , first by his Barons , next by his brother Sigismund , as is testified in the same Historie c. 34. Whereas the warres of Ziscay were rather against strangers , than others ; and hapned after the Co●ncel of Constance , and the kings death . And againe , d Being forced by the per●idiousnesse of the Pope and his complices , he tooke armes for his owne necessarie d●fence , and the protection of the innocent ; so that he d●fended his poore countreymen against the invasion of strangers e And thus farre master Surcliffe . And so I come to speake of such other worthies , as God raised up in this Age , whose Testimonies we shall have occasion to produce ; as nam●ly , Peter de Alliac● Cardinal of Cambrey , Iohn G●rson Cha●cellour of Paris , Paulus Burgensis , Alphonsus Tostatus Bishop of Avila , Thomas Walden the Englishman , Nicholas Clemangtes Archdeacon of Bayeux in France , Dionys●us Carthusianus , Cardinal Bessarion , Cardinal Cusanus , Trith●m●us Abbot of Spanheim , Wesselus Preacher at Wormes , Hierome Savonarola a Dominican of Florence Gabriel Biel , Iohn , and Francis Picus Earles of Mirandula , Laurentius Valla a Patr●cian or Senatour at Rome , Baptista Mantuan the Poet and Historian . Iohn Gerson was a good man , and one that much desired the Reformation of things amisse , he was present at the Councel of Constance , f and for speaking freely therein ag●inst the Disorders of the Romane Church he was deprived of his goods and dignities by the Pope , and expulsed the Vniversitie by th● Sorhonists ; it is recorded of him , g that being thus deprived of his goods and dignities , he be●ooke himselfe to teaching of Schoole , wherein his manner was daily to cause all his Schollers , ●he little children , to joyne with him in this short Pray●r ; My God , my maker , have mercie upon thy miser●bl● servant Gerson . Iohn de Serres in his Inventory of France , in the life of Charles the seaventh saith , that Gers●n retu●ning from Basil , died for griefe at Lyons : and in the third part of Gersons workes , I find this Epitaph made on him ; — aemula turba fugat , Ast hunc dum fugeret , fovit Germania felix , Fit tibi Lugdunum posterior requies . That is ; The envious multitude doe make him ●ly , But flying he finds r●st in Germany ; And after this at Lyons . Touching the power of the Pope , in disposing the affaires of Princes , and their States ; Gerson sai●h , it was given unto him , by such as flattered him , and told him , h That as there is no power but of God , so there is none whether Temporall or Ecclesiasticall , Imperiall or Regall , but from the Pope , in whose thigh Christ hath written , King of Kings , and Lord of Lords ; of whose Power to dispute , is Sacrilegious boldnesse , to whom no man may say , Sir , why doe you so ? though he al●er , overturne , waste and confound all States . Let me be judged a lyar ( saith he ) if these things be not found written , by them that seeme wise in their owne eyes , and if some Popes have not given credit to such lying and flattering words ; yea he saith , i That in imitation of Lucifer , they will be adored and worshipped as gods ; not enduring whatsoever they doe , that any one should aske them why they doe so , they neither feare God , nor reverence men . Gerson denied the infallibilitie of the Popes judgement , and taught , k That he was subject to errour , and that in case of errour , or other scandalous misdemeanour , he may be judicially deposed ; and to this purpose hee wrote a treatise De auferibilitate Papae ; l That the Pope might be safely taken away from the Church , and yet no danger follow of it . Gerson sheweth , m that all sinnes , Even they that seeme least and lightest , are by nature mortall . Touching Indulgences or pardons ; whether the power of the Keyes extend on●ly , to such as are on earth , or to them also that are in Purgatorie , the opinions of men ( saith n Gerson ) are contrarie and uncertaine : but howsoever , this hee pronounceth confidently , o That onely Christ can give such Pardons for thousands of dayes and yeeres as many Popes assume to th●mselves power to grant . So that in Gersons time it was not resolved , whether the power of the Keyes extended onely to such as are on earth , or to them also that are in Purgatorie : yet hee sayth , it might bee favourably construed , that they reached to them in Pu●gatorie , at least Indir●ctly . Concerning their Priests and Votaries , hee saith , p That their Cels and Nunneries were like Brothel-houses , and common stewes . Gerson seeing there was small hope of reformation by a Generall Councell , wisheth q that severall kingdomes and Provinces would reforme and redresse things amisse ; and accordingly the severall parts of Christendome in the West , as the Churches of England , Scotland , France , and Germany have made reformation . PA Gerson was present at the Councell of Constance , and there preached against the Articles of Wickliffe , and the Bohemians ; if Wickliffe make for you , Gerson doth not ; for Gerson condemned Wickliffes opinions . PRO. Gerson preached against such Articles as Were brought to the Councell of Constance , by the English and Bohemians ; now those Articles were many of them impious , in such sort as they were proposed by them , that brought them : as that s God must obey the d●vill : that Kings or Bishops , if they fall into mortall sinne , cease to be Kings or Bishops any longer , and that all they doe is meerely void . Whereas Wickliffe never delivered any such thing , nor had any such impious concei● , as they sought to fasten on him : neither is it to be marvelled at , that impious things were falsely and slaunderously imputed to him , seeing wee are wronged in like sort at this day For Campian is not ashamed to write , t That wee hold God to be the Author of sin , and that all sinnes are equall in Gods sight ; and Bristow saith , u That Protestants are bound to avoid all good workes ; which tenets wee utterly disclaime and detest : and many things no doubt were writ●en by Wickliffe and Husse , and others , in a good and godly sense , which as they are wrested by their adversaries , were hereticall and damnable . So then Gerson might condem●e as imp●ous , s●me posi●ions falsely imputed to Wickliffe , not knowing but that they were his , and dislike other that indeed were his , as not delivered in such sort , and such forme of words , as was fit , or savoring of too much passion and violence ; and yet for all this , both Gerson and Wickl●ffe be good men , and worthy guides of Gods Church in their times . And so I come from Gerson to Cameracensis , from the Scholler to the Master ; for Petrus de Alliaco is willingly and respectfully acknowledged x by Gerson to have been his Tutour and Instructer . Petrus de Alliac● , gave a T●act to the Councell of Constance , touching the Reformation of the Church : y there doth hee reprove many notable abuses of the Romanists , and giveth advise how to represse them ; this treatise of the Cardinals is extant in Orthuinus . Gratius his Fasciculus rerum expetendar●● & fugiendarum , paginâ 206. &c. There should not be multiplyed ( saith hee ) z such variety of Images and Pictures in the Church , there should not be so many Holy dayes , there sh●uld not bee so many Saints canonized ; a such numbers , and variety of religious persons is not expedient● there are so many orders of begging Friers , that their state is burthensome to men , hurt●ull to Hospitals , and to the poore . He saith , that it was then a Proverbe , The Church is come to that estate , that it is not worthy to be ruled , but by Reprobates : yet withall he concludeth , b That as there were seven thousand , who had not bowed to Baal ; so it is to be hoped there bee some , which desire the reformation of the Church . Now also lived Archdeacon Clemangies , who in a set treati●e , freely painted forth the corrupt state of the Roman c Church . He wrote an Epistle to Gerard Maket , d a Doctor of Paris ; the argument whereof is this : That w●e are not onely to depart from Babylon with our affections , but with our bodily fecte : now hee that commands this of such a place , what dost thou thinke ( saith the same Clemangies ) hee would have said of that wherein not onely sound doctrine is not received , but where such are cruelly persecuted , as contradict their w●ls , yea rather their madn●sse ? Speaking of their votaries , hee saith , What I p●ay yo● are Numeries now a dayes , but Br●thel-houses and common Stews : the harbours of wanton men , where they satisfie their lusts ? that now the vayling of a Nunne , is all one , as if you prostituted her openly to bee a Whore. Hee spoke excellently also in the matter of Generall Councels , and so did Cardinall C●sanus , who treating of Councels , and the Pope , delivereth these positions following . That f it is without all question , that a Generall Councell properly taken , is both superiour to the rest of the Patriarkes , and also to the Roman Pope . I beleeve ( saith Cusanus ) g that to be spoken not absurdly , that the Emperour himselfe , in regard of the ●are and custody of preserving the faith committed unto him , may Praeceptive indicere Synodum , by his imperiall authority and command assemble a Synode , when the great danger of the Church requireth the same , Negligen●e aut contradicente Romano Pontifice , The Pope either neglecting so to doe , or resisting and contradicting the doing thereof . Hee saith , h That the Romane Bishop hath not that power which many flatterers heape upon him ; to wit , that hee alone is to determine , and others only to consult or advise . Whiles we defend ( saith Cusanus ) i That the Pope is not universall Bishop , but only the first Bishop ●ver others ; and whiles wee ground the power of sacred Councels upon the consent of the whole assembly , and not upon the Pope , wee mai●●taine truth , and give to every one his due honour : and then concluding the former positions , the Cardinall saith : k I observe little or nothing in ancient Monuments which agreeth not to these my assertions . Now also lived Laurence Va●la a learned man , and a most excellent Divine ( as Trithemi●s calleth him ) l hee was a Roman Patrician , and Chanon of the Cathedrall Church of Saint Iohn of Laterane in Rome : hee wrote a treatise of purpose against the forged donation of Constantine , whereby the Pope challengeth his pretended Iurisdiction Hee pronounceth of his owne experience , m That the Pope himselfe doth make warre against peaceable people , and soweth ●iscord betweene Cities and Princes ; that the Pope makes gaines , not onely of the comm●n wealth , but even of the state Ecclesiasticall , and of the h●ly Ghost , a●d that later Ropes laboured to bee as foolish and wicked , a● the ancient ones were holy and wise . For this and the like freenesse of his speech and p●●● hee was d●iven into exile by the Pope . I know indeed that Master Brereley is offended with us for challenging Cus●●●● and Valla , as witnesses on our behalfe : and therefore hee would make his Reader beleeve , n that Valla being an eager enemy to the Pope , can not bee an indif●erent witnesse , but rather a partie ; and that both o● them retracted their opinions , and submitted themselves to the Catholike Church , and so they might without yeelding to the Romish faction : hee saith they retracted , but hee cannot tell when , or before whom this Recantation was made or written , perhaps it is written on the backe side of Constantines Donation . Neither have wee corrupted Valla , to make him a partie for us : hee was an honest man , and we take his testimony as it is recorded , and commeth 〈◊〉 our hands ; he was not an enemy to the Pope , but to the forgeries of the papacie : and this madethem billet his name amongst such bookes as are forbidden , and o prohibited . In the later end of this age lived Baptista Mantuanus , and Franciscus Picu● , Ea●le of Mirandula : the Oration of Picus in the Councell of Lateran is extant : wherein , besides his taxing the behaviour of the Clergie , hee useth these words : p That piety is almost sunke into superstition . Hee held not the Popes sentence for an infallible Oracle of truth : for hee saith , that if the greater part offer ( as was done in the Councell at Ariminum , which stood for the Arrian heresie ) to decree ought agains● the Scriptures ; wee are not in this case to follow the most voices , but to joyne our selves with the lesser numb●r , being sound in faith : Yea we are rather ( saith he ) q to beleeve a plaine countrey●man , a child , or an old woman , if they speake according to the Scriptures , rather than the Pope , and a thousand of his Prelates speaking against the word of God. That the Pope may erre , hee sheweth by this Similitude● r Even as the naturall head may be sicke , and noysome humours may flow from the braine into th● body : Even so this Deputy-head ( to wit ●he Pope ) may be sicke , and from hi● head-ship naughty opinions ( saith hee ) may bee derived and conveied in●o the body of the Church . Hee was one who desired the Churches reformation : for in the foresaid Oration in the Lateran Councell , hee wisheth , That the copies of the old and new Testament were compared with the ancient and best Originals , and purged from such faults , as they have contracted through tr●ct of time , or the neglect of the Transcribers ; and that the true and authenticke Histories were severed from the Apocryphall . Baptista Mantuan was a famous Poet and Historian , and Prior of the Carmelite Friers : he is commended by Trithemius t for a great Divine , and an excellent Philosopher , he is very sharpe against the Romanists , as may appeare by these few instances following ; u Tyrij vestes ; venalia nobis , Templa ; Sacerdotes , Altaria , Sacra , Coronae , Ignis , ● hura , Preces ; Coelum est venale , Deusque● That is ; Temples and Priests , Altars and Crownes , they sell for pelfe ; Fire , Frankincence , Prayers , Heaven , and God himselfe . Whereby he ( haply ) meant , their breaden God in the Masse . Mantuan saith as followeth , of Hilarie a married Bishop ; and Bishop of Poictiers in France . Non nocuit ●ibi progenies , non obstitit uxor , Legitimo conjuncta thoro , non herruit illâ Tempestate Deus thalamos , connubia , taed●s . That is ; Thy off-spring was no prejudice to thee , Nor could thy lawfull wife an hindrance be : In those dayes God allow'd the Marriage bed To Priests ; their cradles , and the lamps which led To Hymens rites . Of the Woman Pope he saith as y followeth ; Hic pendebat adhuc , sexum mentita virilem Foemina , cui triplici Phrygiam diademate mitram Extollebat apex , & Pontificalis adulter . That is ; Here yet her statue hung ; who faign'd Her selfe to bee a man ; who 's fam'd The Purple-triple Crowne t' have bore , And last was prov'd a Popish Whore. Where it may bee , the Poet meant th●t at that time there remain●d the Statue or Picture in Rome , resembling the Woman Pope travailing with Child ; or the statue or seate , whereon the new Pope sate , to try that he was a man , and no woman , according to that of Henry Stephens , in his Apologie for Herodotus . Cur etiam nostro jam hic mos tempore cessat ? Ante probet quod se quilibet esse mar●m . The same Mantuan glanceth at their manner of such frequent repetitions , as they used in their Prayers ; as if God were served by reckoning up their z Muttering upon a pay●e of Beades , for so he termeth it . Qui filo insertis numerant sua murmura baccis . Now also lived Iohn of Vesalia , a Doctor and Preacher at Wormes ; he held , a That the best Interpreters o● the Scriptures expound one place by another , because men obtaine not the spirit of Christ , but by the spirit of Christ. That the Doctors , be they never so holy , are not to be beleeved for themselves , and the Glosse as little . That , the Elect are saved onely by the mercie of God. That Popes Indulge●ces , auricular Confession , and Pilgrimages to Rome a●e vaine . For holding these and the like propositions he was sharply handled by the Inquisitours ; he is charged by Parsons , but unjustly , to have held the old errour of the Gre●kes , b Who deny the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Sonne , as well as the Father . There lived at the same time ( but somewhat younger ) Doctor Wesellus of Gronning in Friz●land , hee was called Lux Mundi , the light of that Age. He wrote a set treatise of Papall Pardons and Indulgences ; and therein he saith ( grounding his speech on Gersons testimonie ) that c Papall Indulgences and Pardons are not so sure a token of the remiss●on o● a mans sinne , as is the true contrition of heart . He saith , that d The ancient Doctors wrote nothing expressely of Popes Pardons , because this abuse was not crept into the Church , in the dayes of Saint Austine , Ambrose , Hierome , and Gregorie● And having consulted both with Civilians and Canonists , he cannot find them to make Iubilees , and Pardons , ancienter than Pope Boniface the eight , who lived about the yeare 1300. It is now time to looke homeward , and to acquaint the Reader with our home-bred Confessours and Martyrs . I will begin with the raigne of King Henry the fourth , who was ( I take it ) the first English King that put any to death for denying the Romish doctrine : for after that Richard the second was deposed , and that this Henry came violently to the Crowne , he was willing to keepe in with the Clergie , who in those times ba●e great sway . In this Kings raigne , William Sawtree a Priest , was burnt for denying the reall presence ; and so also was Iohn Badby burnt , for being a Wicklevist , or Lollard , as they termed i● . William Thorpe , Priest , and Iohn Purvey , were persecuted for the doctrine of the Sacrament . Waldensis call●d this Purvey , The Lollards Library , and a Glosse upon Wickliffe . Now these men f were not voyd of Learning and knowledge , for Sawtree was an Oxford Divine , Thorpe was Fellow of our Queenes Colledge in Oxford ; Purvey was Master of Arts in Canterbury Colledge , and wrote a Commentarie on the Apocalypse whiles he was in Prison . In the time of King Henry the fifth● Sir Iohn Old Castle was a chiefe Favourer of the Wickliffians . This Sir Iohn , by his Marriage contracted with a Kinswoman of the Lord Cobhams of C●uling in Kent , obtained the title thereof . Hee was ( as Frier Walsingham a peevish enemy of his , saith ) g A very valorous Gentleman , and in specia●● favour with his Prince , for his honest Conversation , though held in some jealousie in point of Religion . He wrote his beliefe which was very Christian-like , but the Prelates accepted not of it ; so that divers crimes were devised against him , and at last he was pronounced an Hereticke in the poynt of the Sacrament , and was executed by the Statute of Lollardie . Walsingham saith , h That this Sir Iohn being brought before the Arch-bishop of Cante●bury , he tooke out of his bosome A copie of the Co●fession of his Faith , and delivered it to him to reade , which the Arch-bishop having read , said , That it contained in it much good and Catholicke matter ; but yet hee must satisfie him touching other poynts : the same Walsingham saith● that i It was alleadged against him , that he held and taught , touching the Sacrament of the Altar , and Penance , Pilgrimages , Adoration of Images , and the Power of the Keyes , otherwise than the Church of Rome taught . saith ) p They constantly endured their death . Whiles Savonarola was in durance hee wrote excellent meditations upon the Psalmes ; and therein in the matter of free Ius●ification he is very sound , and cl●are on our side . The E●le of Mirandula accounted him an holy Prophet , and d●s●nded him , and his Writings : the like also did that rare Scholler Marsilius Ficinus . Philip de Commi●●es that ●xcellent States-man , and Histo●ian , was well acq●ainted with him , and had often conference with h●m : For my part ( saith hee ) q I hold him to bee an honest man , and a good : hee co●nted him also to have had the spirit of p●ophecie , r inasmuch as hee foretold many things , which in event ●roved true , yea such thi●gs as no mortall man could naturally have knowne ; For hee foretold the French King my Master ( saith Comminees ) that after his sons death , the King himselfe should not long survive him ; and these his Letters to the King my selfe have read . PA. Parsons saith , s That Savonarola was put to death for moving and maintaining of sedition in the Common-wealth of Florence , though in all matters of Religion he agreed fully with the Catholike Roman Church . PRO. What his Religion was , let his owne workes testifie : Guicci●rdine saith , t that among●● other things h●e was charged , That his doctrine was not fully Catholike , hee meaneth Roman Catholike ; and Comminees saith , That one of the Frier Minorites , his professed adversary , charged him to be an Heretike ; so that in his opinion , he was not in each point a Roman Catholike . And to take the Popes proces●e which was published against him , as wee find it in Guicciardine ; Therein it is given out , that Savonarola had a holy desire , x that by his meanes a Generall Councell might be called , wherein the corrupt customes of the Clergy might bee reformed , and the estate of the Church of God , so farre wandred , and gone astray ( might bee reduced , so farre forth as was possible ) to the likenesse of that it was in the Apostles time , or those that were neerest unto them , and if he could bring so great and so profitable a worke to effect , hee would thinke it a farre greater glory , then to obtaine the Pope-dome it s●lfe : in the same Processe it is contained , y how hee despised the Popes commandements , and returned publikely to his ol● office of preaching , affirming that the ( Pop●s ) censures published against him were unjust and of no force : as also that the matters by him prophesi●d , were not pronounced by divine revelation , but by his proper opinion grounded upon the doctrine , and observation of holy Scripture . And now let the Reader consider by that which Guicciardine reports of Savonarola , and namely touching the opinion he had of the Popes authoritie , and his excommunications ; touching generall Councels , and the deformitie and degeneration of the Churches state , in respect of antiquitie ; as also what Comminees saith , of his preaching of the Reformation of the Church , and that by the Sword as formerly our Grosthead Bishop of Lincolne foretold , and then let him judge of what profession he was likely to be . Now for the poynt of faction and sedition : It is true inde●d that there was a great faction in Florence , not onely amongst the Laity , but the Spiritualty al●o ; but it doth not appeare that Hierome , was the Author or nourisher of this discord , or that he had any hand in that tumult z wherein Francisco Valori , a principall favourer of Savonarola , was slaine . When Saint Paul preached the Gospel in Asia , the whole Citty of Eph●sus was full of confusion , and they rushed into the Common place , and caught Gajus and Aristarchus , Pauls companions of his journey . Act. 19. ver . 29. Was Paul , or his companions the occasion of this tumult ? Savonarola preached the word of God in Florence , his adversaries tooke Armes , entred the Monasterie of Saint Marke where hee was , and drew him , and two of his brethren , Dominick and Silvester , out of the Covent , and put them into the common prisons , upon occasion of a mutinie in the Citie ; but Hierome and his f●llowes occasioned not this tumult . It was indeed p●●tended tha● he sided with the one faction in Florence , but Philip de Comminees ( who knew him better than Pa●sons ) toucheth that which brought the Fr●er to the s●ake ; nam●ly , In that hee proph●sied , and that so vehemently and freely of the comming in of forraine forces , and of a King that by force of Armes should reforme the corrupt state of the Church , and chastise the Tyrants of a Italy : this was it ( saith he ) which made the Pope , and the state of Florence hate him . Thus have we heard of his life and death , there remaineth nothing now but his Epi●aph , wherewith Flaminius , a famous Poet of Italy hath honoured him . And thus it is , Dum fera fla●ma tuos Hieronyme pascitur artus . Religio flevit dilani●ta comas , Flevit , et , ô , dixit , crudeles parcite flammae , Pa●ite , sunt isto viscera nostra rogo . That is , Whiles Hi●rome to the firy stake was led , Religion tore her haire , and wept , and said , You cruell flames , oh spare this tender heart , For whiles he burns , Religion feels the smart . And so I proceed to the severall points in question . Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie and Canon . Ge●son b makes the word of Christ the sole authenticall ground of faith , and the onely infallible rule to decide controv●rsies . The Scriptures ( saith he ) c is given unto us , as a sufficient and infallible Rule , for the governement of the whole body of ●he Church , and each part thereof unto the end of the world . What evill ( saith the same Gerson ) d hath followed upon the contempt of holy Scripture , which doubtlesse is sufficient for the government of the Church , for otherwise Christ had beene an unperfect Law give● , exper●e●ce will teach . That Wickliffe affirmeth , that n●ither Friers nor Prelates may define a●y thing in matters of faith , unlesse they have the au●hority of sacred Scripture , or some speciall revelation , I dislik● not , saith Waldensis , e but his waywardnesse and craft I condemne , and thinke it necessary ( lest wee wrest the Sc●●ptures , and erre in the interpretation of them ) to follow the ●radition of the Church , expounding them unto us and not to trust to our own private & singular conceits . This is that which Vincentius Lirinensis long since delivered . Alphonsus Tostatus saith , f Although the bookes ( in question ) bee received of the Church , yet are th●y not of any solide au●hority ; and th●refore they are improfitable to prove , and confirme those things which are called in question , according to Saint Hierome . Thomas Waldensis cites out of Hierome , the Can●n of the old Testament in these words : g As there are tw●nty two letters , by which we write in Hebrew all that we speake ; so there are accounted twenty two bookes , by which as letters , wee are instructed in the doctrine of God ; and withall addeth ; That the whole Canonicall Scripture is contained in the two and twenty bookes . Dionysius Carthusi●nus in writing upon Ecclesiasticus , saith , h That booke is not of the Conon ( that is ) amongst the Canonicall Scriptures , although there be no doubt made of the truth of that booke . This is likewise confessed by Pererius the Iesuite , saying , i Dionysius Carthusianus , and Lyra , doe not deny the History of Susanna to be true , but they deny the bookes of Iudith , Tobit , and the Maccabees to apertaine to the Cononicall Scriptures . And the like observation touching Lyra , is made by Picus Mirandula ; and k Picus himselfe would have us note , that many things which in the Decrees are reckoned for Apocryphall , and so accounted by Hierome , are neverthelesse read in the Divine Service , and many things also which some hold not to bee tru● . Of Communion under both kinds ; and number of Sacraments . The Councel of Constance did not simply forbid the ministring of the Sacrament in both kinds , but the teaching of the people , that of necessity it must be so ministred ; for so we find in the thirteenth Session of the said Councel , l That if any should obstinately maintaine , that it was unlawfull , or ●rronious to receive in one kind , he ought to be punished , and driven out as an Hereticke . Gerson , howsoever he thought , that the Church might lawfully prescribe the communicating in one kind alone , ( wherein we cannot excuse him ) yet hee acknowledgeth , m That the Communion in both kinds was anciently used . The Councel of Basil n permitted the Bohemians to continue the use of the Communion in both kinds , upon condition , o That they should not find fault with the contrary use , nor sever themselves from the Catholicke Church . Iacobellus Misvensis p a Preacher of Prague , being admonished by Petrus Dresdensis , after he had searched into the writings of the ancient Doctors , and by name Dionysius , and Saint Cyprian , and finding in them , the communicating of the Cup to the Laity commanded , hee thenceforth exhorted the people by no meanes to neglect , or omit the receiving the Communion of the Cup. Cardinal Bessarion , Bishop of Tusculum , professeth in expresse termes : q Wee reade onely of two Sacraments , which were plainely delivered in the Gospel . Of the Eucharist . Waldensis saith , r That some supposed the Conversion that is in the Sacrament , to be , in that the bread and wine are assumed into the unitie of Christs person : some thought it to be by way of Impanation ; and some by way of Figurative and Tropical appellation . The first and second of those opinions , found the better entertainement in some mens mindes , because they grant the essentiall prese●ce of Christs body , and yet deny not the presence of the bread still remaining to sustaine the appearing Accidents . These opinions he reports to have beene very acceptable to many , not without sighes , wishing the Church had Decreed , That men should follow one of them . Whereupon Iohn Paris writeth , That this way of Impanation so pleased Guido the Carmelite , sometime Reader of the Holy Palace , that he professed , if hee had beene Pope , he would have prescribed and commanded the embracing of it . Petrus de Alliaco s the Cardinal , profess●th , that for ought he can see , the substantiall Conversion of the Sacramental elements , into the body and bloud of Christ , cannot be proved either out of scripture , or any determination of the universal Church , & maketh it but a matter of opinion , inclining rather to the other opinion , of Consubstantiation . His words are these , t That manner or meaning , which supposeth the substance of bread to remaine still , is possible ; neither is it contrary to reason , or to the authoritie of the Scriptures ; nay it is more easie , and more reasona●ble to conceive , than that which sayes , the Substance doth leave the Accidents . And of this opinion no inconvenience doth seeme to ensue , if it could accord with the Churches determination . And hee addes , That the opinion which holdeth the substance of bread to remaine , doth not ●vidently follow of the Scripture , nor in his seeming , of the Churches determination . Biel saith , u It is not expressed in the Canon of the Bible , how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament , and hereof anciently there have beene divers opinions . Cajeta● saith , uu that secluding the Churches authoritie , there is no written word of God sufficient to enforce a Christian to receive this doctrine [ of Transubstantiation . ] Saurez the Iesuit ingeniously professeth , x that Cardinal Cajetan in his Comment●rie upon this Article , did a●●irme , that those words of Christ. [ This is my Body ] doe not of themselves sufficiently prove [ Transubstantiation ] without the Churches authoritie : and therefore by the Commandment of Pius Quintus , that part of his Commentarie is left out in the Roman Edition . By this it appeares , that their learned Councel of Schoolemen who lived in this Age , were not fully agreed upon the poynt . Of Images , and Prayer to Saints . Abulensis y was so farre from allowing the worship of Images , as that he held it a thing unlawfull in it selfe , Deut. 4.16 . secluding Adoration , to make any visible Image or representation of God according to his de●ty : for hence ( saith hee ) these z two inconveniences will follow : First , The Perill of Idola●rie , in case , the Image it selfe should come to be adored : and Secondly , Errour and Heresie , whiles one shall as●ribe to God such bodily shapes and formes , as the Trinity ●s usually pictured withall . Now that Abulensis with oth●rs held it unlawfull to picture or repres●nt the Trin●tie , is acknowledged by Bellarmine , saying , a It is Calvins opinion in the first booke of his Institutions , cap 11. that it is an abhominable sinne to make a ●●sible and bod●ly Image of the invisible and incorporeall God ; and this opinion of Calvins is also the opinion of some Catholicke Doctors , as Abulensi● [ upon 4. Deut. quest . 5. ] and Durand [ upon 3. dist . 9. qu. 2. ] and Peresius , in his booke of ●raditions . Gerson condemned all m●king of an Image , or portraiture , appointed or accommoda●ed to worship and aadoration● saying , b Thou shalt ●ot adore th●m , nor worship them ; which are thus to b● distinguished , Thou shalt not adore them ; that is , With any bodily reverence , or bowing , or kneeling to them ; Thou shalt not worship them with any devotion of mind . Images therefore are prohibited to bee either adored or Worshipped . The same Gerson disliked c the varietie of pictures and Images in Churches , occasioning Idolatry in the simple . If Christians were in no pe●ill of Idolatry by worshipping Images , why doth Gerson complaine● d that Superstition had infected Christian Religion , an● that people , like Iewes● did onely s●eke after Signes , and yeeld Divine honour to Images . Cassander writeth in this manner : e The opinion of Thomas Aquinas , who holdeth , that Images are to be wo●shipped , as their Samplers , is disliked by sound●r Sc●oolemen , amongst whom is Durand , Holcot , and Gabriel ●iel . Biel reporteth the opinion of them which say , that an Image , neither as it is considered in it selfe mater●ally , nor y●t according to the nature of a Signe or Image , is to bee worshipped . And he saith well , that this opinion of Thomas was disliked of others ; for besides those already mentioned ; this was one of the Problems which Picus Mirandula proposed to be maintained by him at Rome , namely ; that f Neither the Crosse , nor any other Image was to be worshipped with Latria , or Divine worship , no not in that sense as Thomas would have it . And when othe●s carped at this , and other his Assertions touching ●he Sacrament of the Eucharist , himselfe made his owne Apologie , and defence . Touching Invocation of Saints , though Gerson did not absolutely condemne it , yet hee reprehendeth the abuses and s●pers●i●ious observations , then prevailing in the worshi●ping of S●ints , ve●y bitterly . For in his Consolato●y tract of Rectifying the Heart , amongst many o●her consid●rations he complaineth , g That ●h●re is incollerable ●uperstitiō in the worshipping of Saints , innumerable observations without all ground of reason , vaine credulitie , in beleeving things concerning the Saints , reported in the uncertaine Legends of their lives , superstitious opinions of obtaining Pardon and remission of sinnes , by saying so many Pater nosters in such a Church , before such an Image ; as if in the Scriptures and Authenticall writings of holy men , there were not sufficient direction for all acts of pietie and devotion , without these frivolous Additions . Gabriel Biel in his Lectures upon the Canon of the Masse , saith , h That the Saints in Heaven , by their naturall knowledge , which is the knowledge of things in their proper kinde , know no Prayers of ours that are here upon earth , neither mentall nor vocall , by reason of the immoderate distance that is betwixt us and them . Secondly , i That it is no part of their essentiall beatitude , that they should see our prayers , or our other actions in the eternall word ; and thirdly , k That it is not altogether certaine , whether it doe appertaine to their accidentall felicity to see our Prayers . At length he concludeth , l That it may seeme Probable , that although it doe not follow necessarily upon the Saints beatitude , that they should heare our Prayers of congruitie , yet it may seeme probable , that God revealeth unto them all those suits , which men present unto them . By this we see that for the maine , Gabriel concludeth ; that the Saints with God , doe not by any power of their owne , by any naturall , or evening knowledge whatsoever , understand our prayers mentall or vocall ; they and we are d●sparted so farre asunder , as there can not bee that relation betweene us ; so that wee might haply call , and they not bee Idonei auditores , not at hand to heare us . Now as learned Master Mountague , now Lord Bishop of Chichester saith , m The Saints their naturall or evening knowledge onely is that which wee must trust unto , as being a lonely in their power to use and to dispose ; and of ordinary dispensation . In a word , Peter Lombard saith , n It is not incredible , that the soules of Saints heare the prayers of the suppliants . Biel saith o , ( as we have heard : ) That it is not certaine but it may seeme probable , that God reveleth unto Saints all those suits , which men present unto them : here is nothing but probability and uncertain●y ; nothing whereon to ground our praying to Saints . Of Iustification and Merits . Trithemius the Abbot , who lived in this age complaines , that p Aristotle and the heathen Philosophers were oftner alleadged in the Pulpit , than Saint Peter and Saint Paul ; and therefore hee disswades his friend Kymolanus from too much study of profane sciences : Let us ( saith hee ) seeke after true and heavenly wisedome , which consisteth in faith onely in our Lord Iesus Christ , working by love . Cardinall Cusanus in a treatise of his De pace fidei , brings in Dialogue-wise , Saint Peter and Saint Paul instructing the severall nations of the world , Greekes and Arabians ; the French and the Almanies , Tartarians and Armenians ; and there in that conference hee laboureth to bring them to an agreement In pace fidei , in the unity of faith ; and amongst other things he proves q at large , That wee are justified only by faith in Christ , and not by any merit of our owne workes . The doctri●e of free Iustification is excellently handled by Savonarola in his meditations upon the fiftieth Psalme , which Possevine r acknowledgeth , to be composed by him whiles hee was in durance , the day before hee was led to the stake . Vpon occasion of those wo●ds of the Psalmist , They gat not the land in poss●ssion through their owne sword ; neither was it their o●ne arme that helped them , but thy right hand and thine arme , and the light of thy countenance ; because thou hadst a favour unto them , Psalm . 4● . ver . 3.4 . ●e sweetly comm●nteth on this sort ; Thou ●av●uredst them , that i● , they were not saved by their owne merits or workes , l●st they should glory th●●ein ; but even because of thy go●d will and ple●sure . Vpon occasion of that Petition of the Lords prayer , Forgive as our trespasses , hee renounceth all merit of his owne workes , and professeth t in the words of the P●ophet Esay , That all our righteousnesse is as the rags of a menstruous woman . Picus Mirandula treating on the same Petition saith , it is certaine that wee are not saved for our owne merits , but by the onely me●cy of our God. Gerson taught that wee are not justified by the perfection of any inherent qualitie , u x that all our inherent righteousnesse is imperfect ; yea , that it is like the polluted rags of a menstruous woman , that it cannot endure the triall of Gods severe judgement ; even Esay himselfe with the rest became vile in his owne eyes , and pronounceth this lowly confession , all our righteousnesse is as filthy rags . The Cardinall of Cambray proveth y by many reasons and authorities of Scrip●u●e , That no act of ours , from how great charity soever it proceed , can merit eternall life of condignity . And whereas God is said to give the kingdome of h●aven for good merits or good workes ; the Cardinall for clearing hereof delivereth us this distinction ; z That the word Propter , or for , is not to be taken Causally , as if good workes were the efficient cause of the reward , as fire is the cause of heate ; but improperly , and by way of consequence , noting th● order of o●e thing following o● another ; signifying that the reward is given after the good worke , and not but after it , yet no● for it : a so that a meritorious act is said to be a cause in respect of the rew●rd , as Causa sine qu● non also is said to be a ca●se , though it be no cause properly . Thomas Walden professeth plainely his dislike of that saying : b That a man by his merits is worthy of the kingdome of heaven , of this grace or that glory : ho●s●ever certaine schoole-men , that they might so sp●ake , had invented the termes of Condignity and Congruity . But c I repute him ( saith he ) the sounder Divine , the more faithfull Catholike , and more consonant with the holy Scriptures , who doth simply deny such merit , and with the qualification of the Apostle and of the Scriptures , confesseth , that simply no man meriteth the kingdome of heaven , but by the grace of God , or will of the Giver : d as all the former Saints , untill the late Schoole-men , and the Vniversall Church hath written . Out of which words of Waldens wee may further observe ( saith the learned and Right Reverend Doctor Vsher , Arch-bishop of Armag● ) e both the time when , and the persons by whom this innovation was made in these later dayes of the Church : namely , that the late Schoole-men were they , that corrupted the ancient doctrine of the Church , and to that end devised their new termes of the merit of Congruity and Condignity . Paulus Burgensis , expounding those words of David , Psal. 36.5 . Thy mercy O Lord is in heaven ( or reacheth unto the heavens ) writeth thus . f No man according to the common Law can merit by condignity the glory of heaven . Whence the Apostle saith in the 8. to the Romans , that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the future glory which shall be revealed in us . And so it is manifest , that in heaven most of all the mercy of God shineth forth in the blessed . I will close up this point , as also this age , with that memorable saying of Ernestus , Arch-bishop of Magdeburg , lying on his death-bed g some five yeares befo●e Luther shewed himselfe : h It is witnessed by Clement Scha● , Chaplaine to the said Arch-bishop , and one who was present at his death ; that a Frier Minor used this speech to the Archbishop : Take a good heart most worthy Prince , wee communicate to your excellencie all the good workes not onely of our selves , but our whole order of Frier Minors ; and therefore doubt not , but you receiving them , shall appeare before the tribunall Seate of God righteous and blessed . Whereunto the Arch-bishop replyed ; By no meanes will I trust upon my owne workes . or yours , but the workes of Christ Iesus alone shall suffice , upon them will I repose my selfe . THE SIXTEENTH CENTVRIE , From the yeare of Grace , 1500. to 1600. Of Martin Luther . PAPIST . WHat say you of this sixteenth Age ? PROTESTANT . We are now ( by Gods assistance ) come to the period of time , which was agreed upon in the beginning of our conference ; to wit , to the dayes of Martin Luther ; for about the yeare of Grace 1517 , hee beganne to teach , and Preach against Indulgences . And withall I have produced a Catalogue of our professours , unto this present sixteenth Centurie . PA. Stay your selfe ; you must ( saith Master a Brerely ) show us your professours during the twentie yeares next before Luther . PRO. It is done already ; for besides our English Martyrs , we have produced Trithemius the Abbot , and Savonarola , both which lived within the time mentioned , and held with us the Article of free Iustification ; and Savonarola ( howsoever the matter be otherwise coloured ) was burnt for Religion in the yeare 1498. Besides , there have beene in all Ages , and in the time mentioned , such as held the substantiall Articles of our Religion , both in the Roman , and Greeke Church ; and by name , the Grecians in common with us , have openly denyed the Popes Supremacie , Purgatorie , private Masses , Sacrifices for the dead ; and defended the lawfulnesse of Priests marriage . Likewise , in this Westerne part of the world , the Schollers of Wickliffe , called Lollards , in England , the Tabo●ites in Bohemia , and Waldenses in France , maintained the same doctrine in substance with our moderne Protestants , as appeareth by a Confession of the Waldensian Faith , set forth b about the yeare of Grace 1508 , which was within the time prefixed . Neither did these whom we have produced dissemble their Religion ; but made open profession thereof , by their Writings , Confessions , and Martyrdomes , as also their just Apologies are extant , c to cleere them from the Adversaries imputation . PA. I thought Luther had beene the first founder of your Religion ; for there bee some of your men who call d him the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine . PRO. Luther broached not a new Religion , he onely drained and refined it from the Lees and dregs of superstition ; he did not forme or found a new Church which was not in being , but onely reformed and purged that which he found , from the soil● of errours , and disorders . When Hilkiah the Priest , in Iosiah's time , found out the booke of God ; he was thereby a meanes to bring to light , what the wicked proceedings of Manasses , Amon , and others , had for a season smothered ; and so did Luther , he was the instrument whom God used for the farther enlightning his Church ; and yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion , than upon the former , that Hi●kiah first preached the Law. The Protestants Church by Luthers meanes began no otherwise in Germanie , than health begins to be in a body , that was formerly sicke , and overcharged , and now recovered . So that in respect of doctrine necessary to salvation , the Church in her Firme members ( as Saint Austine speakes ) f was the same before Luther , and afterwards ; and it began to be by his meanes onely according to a grea●er measure of knowledge , and freedome from such corruptions , as formerly ( like ill humours ) oppressed it , and ove●charged it . The Pro●estants Church then is the same with all good and sound Christians that lived before them , and succeedeth the sound members of the visible Chu●ch , that kept the life of true Religion in the substantiall matters of Faith and Godlinesse , though otherwise those times were da●kened with a thicke mist of errours . Now whereas some call Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine , they did not ther●by intend , that he was the fi●st that ever preached the d●ctrine of the r●formed Churches ; for they could not be ignorant , that after Christ and his Apostles , and the Fathers of the first five Ages , Bertram , and A●lfricke , and Berenger , Peter Bruis , and Henry of Tholouse , Dulcinus , and An●ldus , and Lollardus , Wickliffe , Husse , Hierome of Prag●e and others stood for the same truth which we professe ; but their meaning was , that Luther was the first , who in their Age and memorie , publickly and succesfully set on foot a generall reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts . And thus in a tollerable sense Luther may bee called the first Apostle of the Reformation , though not simply the first that preached the Protestants doctrine . Americus Vesputius is g reported to have discovered the West Indies , or America , and withall beares the name thereof ; and yet Christopher Columbus discovered it before him . Bishop Iewell saith , h that in Luthers dayes , in the midst of the darknesse of that Age , there first began to shine some glimme●ing beame of truth ; his meaning is not , that the truth was then first revealed , but that by Luthers m●anes , it was manifested in a fuller measure and degree of l●ght and knowledge , than it was in the f●rmer and da●ker times of Poperie ; yea , he giveth p●rticular instance of true professours that were before Luther , namely ; Saint Hilarie , Gregory , Bernard , Pauperes de Lugduno , the ●ishops of Greece and Asia , as also i Valla , Marsilius , Petrarch , Savonarola , and others . PA. Did Luther himselfe acknowledge he had any predecessors , or fore-runners ? PRO. I answer with my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly , k that Luther acknowledged the Waldenses ( term●d fratres Pigardi ) as appeares by his Preface before the Waldension Confession . I found ( saith hee ) in these men a miracle , almost unheard of in the Popish Church ; to wit , that these men leaving the doctrines of men , to the utmost of their endeavour , meditated in the Law of God day and night , and were very ready and skilfull in the Scriptures : whereas in the Papacie , the greatest Clerkes u●terly neglected the Scriptures . I could not but congratulate both them and us , that wee were together brought into one sheepfold . Of Iohn Husse and Hi●rome of Prague he saith , l They burned Iohn Husse and Hierome both Catholike men , they being themselves Heretikes and Apostates : and in his third Preface hee saith ; hee hath heard from men of credit , that Maximilian the Emperour was wont to say of Iohn Husse : Alas ! alas ! they did that good man wrong . And Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed ( lying yet by me ) writeth ; m That Husse indeed was condemned and burned , but not convicted . PA. To what Church did Luther joyne himselfe ? and why left hee the Roman Church . PRO. Hee joyned himselfe in point of faith , to the ancient Primitive and Apostolicke Church that went before him , and for his present Communion , to that sound part of the Roman Church , which then with him , hated the corruptions , which the Romish faction , for the maintenance of their pompe and profit had upheld . In particular , hee joyned himselfe to those honourable personages , the Dukes of Saxony and Wittenberge , and the Earle of Mansfield , and to such Ch●istian congregations as within their territories began to abandon Poperie , and reforme themselves . He received Ordination in the Church of Rome ; this ordination ( for substance ) was good , and by vertue thereof hee preached t●e word , and brought the people to see and detest , not the Church of Rome , but her corruptions , from whence hee severed himselfe , to wit , from the Roman Court , and faction therein : so that hee leapt not out of the Church , hee kept himselfe still within the barne-floore thereof , onely he leapt out of the huske of popish errours . Now this his separation and ours from errour ●s warranted by Gods word , since Gods people are commanded , n and that upon a grievous penalty to depart out of Babylon , and spiritua●l Sodome ; and this we ●ake to be Rome , since your owne Iesuites , o that have commented on the Revelation , call Rome , Babylon ; and that this is to be understood not onely of heath●n Rome , but of Rome Christian , after that it had forsaken hea●henisme , and had received the faith of Christ , and turned againe from that unto Antichristianisme . PA. If any Protestant Church were in being before , or at Luthers appearing , then would they upon his preaching , have acknowledg●d him , and joyned thems●lves to him ; but ( as Bell●rmine sa●th ) p they did not . PRO. Alpho●sus de Casiro saith q ; Neither did Luther in this age come ●orth alone , but accompanied with a gr●at troope , as with a Guard , waiting for L●t●er as for t●eir Captaine and Leader : such were Philip Melanchton , Conradus P●llican●s , ●ambert Fabricius , Capito , ●si●●der , Stu●mius , a●d Ma●tin Bucer : and th●se ( saith he ) seemed to have ●xpect●d him b●fore hee came , and upon his comming d●lcl●a●e unto him ; so that hee wanted no● such as gave him the right hands of fellowship , Galat. 2.9 . Carolus Mi●titius being sent from Pope Leo to Frederike , professed , r That all the way as he came , having s●und●d m●ns aff●ctions , hee found three to favour Luth●r , for one that favoured the Pope . And Lut●er professeth , s that the applause of the world did much support him , most men being weary of the frauds , and wicked p●actices of the Romanists . Neither are these penurious examples , to give instance in Melanchton , Pellican , Bucer , and others , as Brereley scornefully calleth i● , t for they were as great scholl●rs as that age aff●●ded . P●llican was one who made great helpe for r●viving t●e Hebrew tongue , and was Luthers ancient ; and so was Io●n Capnio , or Reuchlin , who brought Greeke and Hebrew into Germany . Now b●sides his c●evals , and contemporaries , the Wald●n●es , as also Iohn H●sse bare a torch before Luther , and sh●wed him his way . PA. Master Brereley saith , u That Melanchton , P●lican , and Bucer were originally Catholikes , and followed Luthers example in revolting from the Catholike Church . PRO. Saint Paul was originally a Pharisee , and yet hee did well to forsake the leaven of their traditions , and embrace the doctrine of the Gospell . And so did Saint Austin the uu errour of the Manichees and Pelagians , and embraced the truth of the Gospell . Besides , they left not the Catholike , but the Roman Church , nor that altogether , but the faction that was therein , to wit , the papacie . PA. Schlusselburg saith , x It is impudencie to say , that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther . PRO. Schlusselburgs words are these ; Vtenhovius writes impudently , that he heard Pellican affirme , that many learned men in Germany , held the doctrine of the Gospel before Luther appea●ed , and that Pellican himselfe impugned the popish purgatory , before the name of Luther was heard of . Now why may wee not beleeve Vtenhovius and Pellican affirm●ng the same , and being honest men , as well as Schlusselburg denying it . Besides , admit there were not any in Germany , yet there might be elsewhere many thousands ; as in Bohemia , France , and England , and other parts , who b●fore Luthers time , embraced the doctrine of the Gospell . PA. Master Brereley saith y out of Luthers workes , that upon a conference had with the Devill , Luther gave over the Masse , and changed his Religion . PRO. Suppose this Conference were extant in all the Dutch copies of Luthers workes ( which yet some make doubt of ) yet might this conference bee onely imaginary , even a strong spirituall 〈◊〉 , and not ●ny personall or reall conference : now from such a spi●ituall conflict , dreame or app●●ition , you cannot draw any sound proofe . But ( supposing the truth of this conference ) had not Christ a con●●●●nce with Sathan , and Saint Bernar● a combat with him ? is thei● religion ere a whit ●he worse to be liked ? Your Romish Saints were very familiar with the Devill . Saint Oswald wrestled with him ; Saint Dunstane tooke him by the nose ; Christopher in the Legend is said to have served the Devill ; and Saint Xavier was usually vexed with him after Dinner , Supper , Recreation , and saying of Masse ; insomuch as the Devill oft times put him into a cold sweat ; as H●ssenmullerus a reporteth of him from Turrian the Iesuite . PA. The Devill brought arguments against saying of Masse , and disputed against it ; therefore the Masse is good , or else the Devill would not have found fault with it . PRO. This followeth not ; for every thing the Devill mislikes , is not therefore good , neither is all he moves one unto , therefore bad . For instance sake ; b he came in the habit of Saint Vrsula , and moved one to enter into the Order of Nunnes ; will you say , therefore veiling of Nunnes is bad ? PA. Luther used the selfe-same arguments against the Masse , which Satan did : now how could they bee good proofes that were brought in by Satan ? or why would Luther beleeve him ? PRO. Luther shewes onely , how Satan tempted h●m to despaire , for that he had beene a Masse-monger ; which Luther knew to be naught without the Devils prompting . Besides , all that the Devill speakes is not devillish : the Devils , that possessed the men , confessed , and sayd , d Thou art Christ , the Sonne of the living God ; afterwards they entred into the Heard of Swine ; now the Heardmen they came into the Citty , and told what was done , and sayd , now what though the H●ard-men told how the Devils confessed this Article of the Christian Faith , That Christ was the Sonne of the living God ? was not this a true confession , though the Heard-men had fi●st heard it from the Devils , and likewise reported it from them ? Luther heard such and such arguments against the Masse ; might not those arguments be true , though Luther hea●d them from Satan , Gods Ape ? It is true indeed that the Devill in telling truth , ha●h an evill intent ; and so it was here : for hee laboured to drive him to Despaire , by accusing him for saying M●sse , which now he condemned : and the more to terrifie him , he layes downe e reasons against it ; thereby to let him see his old errours ; and all this to drive him to despayre : thus Satan truly layes a mans sinne before him , truly accuses him ; but it is to make him despayre : as he dealt with Cain and Iudas , whose example Luther accordingly alleadgeth upon this occasion . And this was the end the Devill aymed at , as appeares by Luthers owne words , saying , f Satan lieth not , when he layes a mans sinne to his charge , and the heynousnesse thereof ; but then doth Satan lie , when he would have me despayre of the mercie and favour of God. Againe , it is observable , where Luther was thus tempted● not whiles hee kept in the Monastery , but when hee was leaving it , and comming to the truth ; then the devill began to be busie with him , fearing that hee had slipt his chaine . Lastly , marke the issue of this conference ; in this conflict the devill was foiled , and Luther won the field , and in effect makes this glorious conquest : I Luther have sinned in saying private Masses without Communicants , contrary to Christs Institution● but the devill lyeth in tempting mee to dispai●e with Cain ; I will therefore with Peter bee s●rry for my fault , and returne to my Saviour . PA. Luther broke out into distempered passions , and was at odds with some of Zuinglius his followers . PRO. What if Luther after the plaine homelinesse of a blunt German libertie , used some over broad speeches ? that hee was too much carried with the violent streame of his passion , it is to bee imputed to humane infirmitie , and the perversnesse of the manifold adversaries hee found in those times . Besides , there was as great unkindnesse g of old , betweene Chrysostome and Epiphanius , Hierome and Ruffinus , and others . PA. Bellarmine saith h out of Cochleus , that Luther began to oppose Indulgences , not because he had any just reason to mislike them ; but because the publishing of them was committed to the Dominicke Friers , and not to the Augustine Friers , of which order himselfe was . PRO. This is reported by his sworne enemie , and that against the whole course of things that passed in those times . For Luther ( before this occasion was offered him ) had cleered the doctrine of Originall sinne , of nature and grace , of free-will , and the like ; which were the maine grounds wherein he dis●ented from the Romish Synagogue . Indeed he manifested his oposition chiefely against papall Indulgences ; and he had reason for it : for at that time things were in so bad a state , that the bloud of Christ was proph●n●d , the power of the Keyes was made contemptible , and the redemption of Soules out of Purgato●ie , was set at a Stak● at Dice , by the Pardon-sellers , to be played for , as Guicca●di●e saith ; This bred great indignation , and many scandals in divers places , but ( as hee saith ) i especially in G●rmanie , where were discovered many of the Popes ministers selling for a small price , or set upon a game at Tables in a Taverne , the power to redeeme the Soules of dead men out of Purgatory . In like sort , that other noble Historian , Th●anus , of more credit than a hundred Cochleusses , saith , k that Pope Leo , by the instigation of Cardinal Puccius , gathered huge summes of money , by sending his Breves abroad every where , promising exptation of all sinnes , and life everlasting upon a certaine price , which any should give according to the ●eynousnesse of his offence . Then arose up Martin Luther a professour of Divinity in Wittenberge , who first confuting , and then condemning the Sermons which were made for Indulgences , at length questioned that power , which the Pope assumed to himselfe in the same Breves . PA. Was Luther a man of an holy life ? PRO. Erasmus who was well acquainted with him , saith l that Hee was accounted a good man , even of his very enemies ; and this I observe ( saith the same Erasmus ) That the best men are least offended with his writings . He had gained such reputation with the people , that ( as m Guicciardine saith ) against●uther ●uther , tooke their Originall , ●rom the innocencie of his life , and soundnesse of his doctrine , rather than upon any other occasion . Erasmus seemeth to point at that which brought Luther to most of his troubles , namely ; for that he touched to close upon the Popes power , and Supremacie ; as also that hee taxed their Indulgences and pardons which served for the maintenance of their prelacy and Clergy ; for thus it is reported n of him ; that when he was asked by Fredericke Duke of Saxonie his Iudgement of Luther ; he said , that there wer● two great faults of his , one , That he medled with the Popes Crowne ; another , That he medled with the Monks Bellyes . And let this suffice to be spoken by way of Apologie , and in behalfe of Martin Luther , and that Reformation which so many worthies before him desired , himselfe began and attempted , and others now at length h●ve happily effected . PA. You tell us of a Reformation : did the Catholicks desire it , were they not content with the Religion then in use ? PRO. It seemes they were not ; for divers of them Gave up their lives , for the name of our Lord Iesus Christ , Act. 15.26 . rather than they would yeeld to the Romish superstition . Besides , I have already given instance in such as foretold , and wished for this Reformation . Robert Grost-head Bishop of Lincolne , prophesied , o that The Church would never be set free , from out of her Aegyptian bondage , but by the edge of the Sword. Another of our Countrey-men , William O●cham , a learned Schoole man , complaines , that in his time , p They perverted Scriptures , Fathers , and the Churches Canons ; and that these were no Young men , or novices , or unlearned ones ; but such as should be Pillars of the Church , did cast themselves headlong into the pit of Heresies . Iohn Gerson advised , that in case the Pope and a Generall Councel would not make Reforma●ion , ( whereof he had little hope ) q then the severall par●● and provinces of Christendome , should themselves redresse things a●is●e . The Cardinal of Cambrey , and Picus Mirandul● presented their treatises of the Chu●ches Reformation , the one to the Councel of Constance , the other to the Lateran Councel . Pelagius Alvarus set out the Complaint of the Church , and Arch-deacon Clemangies the Corrupt State of the Church . Hierome Savonarola the Dominican , told the French king , Charles the eight ( as Philip de Comminees saith ) That he should have great prosperity in his voyage into Italy , and that God would give the Sword into his hand : and all this , to the end hee should reforme the corrupt state of the Church , which if he did not performe , he should returne home againe with dishonour , and God would reserve the honour of his worke to some other , and so ( saith he ) it fell out . When Luther arose , and began to oppose Indulgences , the more wise and moderate sort wished the Pope to reforme r things apparantly amisse , and not to prosecute Luther : but this Councel was not followed : wherupon , divers parts ( according to Gersons Councel ) began this worke of Reformation , so much desired by all good men , howsoever opposed by the pope , and his adherents . PA. A Reformation presupposeth that things were amisse ; will you charge the Catholicke Church with errour ? PRO. Wee say that particular Churches ( and such is that of Rome ) may erre , and divers have erred . Sixtus Senensis reckons s up many Fathers that held the Millenary errour , mistaking that place in the Revelation , 20.5 . They said , that there should be two Resurrections ; the first of the godly , to live with Christ a thousand yeares on earth , in all wordly happinesse , before the wicked should awake out of the sleepe of death ; and after that thousand yeares , the second Resurrection of the wicked should bee to eternall death , and the godly should ascend to eternall life : this errour t continued almost two hundred yeares after it began , before it was condemned for an heresie ; and was held by so many Church-men of great account , and Martyrs , that Saint Augustine and Ierome did very modestly dissent saith the same Senensis . The opinion of the necessity of Infants receiving the Sacrament of the Lords body and blood , as well as Baptisme , did possesse the minds of many in the Church for certaine hundreds of yeares , as appeareth by that which Saint Austine writeth of it in his u time ; and Hugo de Sancto victo●e * many hundred of yeares after him . Were there not also superstition and abuses in the primitive Churches ? did not a Councell x forbid those night vigils which some Christians then used at the graves of the Martyrs , in honour of the deceased Saints ? and are not these Vigils now y abolished ? Doth not Saint A●stine confesse z there were certaine Adoratores sepulchr●rum ●t picturarum , worshippers of tombes and pictures in the Church in his time ? and doth not the same Father taxe them for it ? To come to later times , Thomas Bradwardine complayned a ; That the whole world almo●t was gone after Pelagius into errour ; arise therefore O Lord ( saith hee ) and judge thine owne cause . Gregorius Ariminensis saith , b That to affirme , that man by his naturall strength , without the speciall helpe of God , can doe any vertuous action , or morally good , is one of the damned heresies of Pelagius , or if in any thing it differ from his heresie , it is further from truth . The same Gregory saith , c The heresies of Pelagius were taught in the Church , and that not by a few , or them meane men , but so many , and of so great place , that hee almost feared to follow the doctrine of the Fathers , and oppose himselfe against them therein . Cardinall Contaren saith ; d That there were some who pretended to be Catholikes , and opposite to Luther , who , whiles they laboured to advance free-will too high , they detracted too much from the free-grace of God , and so became adversaries to the greatest lights of the Church , and friends to Pelagius . It is not strange then , that we● say there hath beene a defection not onely of Heretikes from the C●urch and faith● but also in the Church , of her owne children , from the sincerity of fai●h d●livered by Christ and his Apostles : not for that all , or the whole Church at any time did forsake the true faith , but for that many fell from it ; according to that of Saint Paul , 1. Tim. 4.1 . In the last times some shall depart from the faith , att●nding to spirits of errour . Besides , such a famine of the word , as fell out in these later times , must needs have brought in corruption in doctrine ; and this was it that called for Reformation . For in sundry ages last past , the Roman Church hath behaved her selfe , more like a step-dame , then a naturall mother ; insomuch as shee hath deprived her children of a principall portion of the food of life , e the word of God : her publike readings and service were in an unknowne tongue ; the holy Scriptures were closed up , that people might not cast their eyes upon them : fabulous Legends were read and preached f insteed of Gods word : but as Claudius Espencaeus , a Doctor of Paris , a bitter enemy to B●za , and therefore more worthy of credit in this b●halfe , saith ; Our Ancestors as devoutly aff●cted to the Saints as we , thought is not fit , that the rehearsall of the Saints lives , should shoulder out the bookes of the old and new Testament , and the reading thereof . And hereby it came to passe ( as one of their owne Authors sai●h ) g That the greater number of people understood no more concerning God , and things divine , in particular and distinct notions , then Infidels or heathen people . And here in England , there was such a dearth of the word , in these later times of pope●y ; h that some gave five markes , some more , some lesse for an English booke ; some gave a load of hay for a few Chapters of Saint Iames , or of Saint Paul in English. Was it not now high time to reforme these things ? but Rome would neither acknowledge her errours , nor re●orme them , but rather sought to defend them , persecuting such as by authority established , laboured this reformation . How easie and safe had it beene for Rome ( had shee tendered the peace of Christendome ) to have ( according as the truth required ) permitted the u●e of the Cup , as sometime the Councell of Basil allowed it to the Bohemians , and the publike service of God in a knowne language , as was sometimes granted to the Slavons i : as also to have abolished the worship of Im●ges , and the like , without which the Church w●s , and that very well for a long time . But Rome would not yeeld in one point , lest shee should bee suspected to have erred in the rest ; and therely the Infallibility of the Roman Oracle the Pope , bee called in question . PA. That which is reformed , k remaines the same in substance that it was before : And therefore the Catholike Religion , and the substantiall exercise thereof should have remayned in England upon the Reformation ; but you have set up another Religion . PRO. We doe not say that the Catholike Religion is reformed , for that cannot bee amended ; but that wee have reformed Religion , in that we have purged it from certaine devises and corruptions which had crept into it . Before this reformation , Religion was like to a certaine lump● , or mas●e , consisting partly of gold , a●d partly of other refuse mettall and drosse ; to a sicke body , wherein besides the flesh , blood , and bones , and vitall spirits ; there were also divers naughty humours that had surprised the body ; l our reformation tooke not away your gold ( to wit those fundamentall truths wherein you agree with us ) but purged it from the drosse ; it drew not the good blood from the body , but onely purged out the pestilent humour ; so that we have retained whatsoever was sound , Catholike , and primitively ancient : onely those things that were patched to the ground-soles of Religion , that wee have pared away as superfluous : wee have not removed the ancient land-markes , but only cast downe some encroachments and improvements of poperie : wee have no more er●cted a new faith in respect of the substance , and essentials thereof , than that zealous reformer Iosia , m built a new materiall Temple when hee cast out the Idols , and Idolatrous worship out of the Lords house . There is no other difference betwixt the Reformed and the Romish Church , n then betwixt a field well weeded , and the same field forme●ly overgrowne with weeds : or betwixt a heape of corne now well winnowed , and the same heape lately mixed with chaffe . And if it be a vaine and frivolous thing to say , it is not the same field , or the same corne ; as vaine and frivolous is it to say , the Church is not the same it was , or in the same place , after it is swept , and cleansed of the filth and dust : or to say , o the Churches of Corinth and Galatia ( after their reformation occasioned by Saint Pauls writing ) were new Churches , and not the same they were before : because that in them before , the Resurrection was denied , Circumcision practis●d , discipline neglected , and Ch●is●s Apostles contemned ; which things now are not found in them ; p or to say Naaman was not still the same person , because before hee was a Leper , and now is cleansed . PA. If our Romane Church were so corrupt , whence then had you the truth ? what you had , you received from us . PRO. Saint Austine saith , q that the Iewes were to the Christians Library-keepers of the bookes of the Law and the Prophets : and might not the Romanists performe the like office to the Protestants ? The Iewish Church what time it was unsound , preserved the Scripture●Canon ; and by transcribing● and reading the same , r delivered the whole text therof tr●ly to others . And thus the Roman Church , though in many things unsound , preserved the bookes of holy Scripture , and taught the Apostles C●eed , with sundry parts of divine truth gathered from the same ; and by these principles of Christianitie preserved in that Church , judicious and godly men , might with study and diligence finde out what was the first delivered Christian doct●ine in such things as were necessary to salvation . And herein was Gods gracious providence s●ene , that even that Church wherein Luther himselfe received his Christianitie , Ordination , and power of Ministerie , should for the benefit of Gods children preserve the Word and Sacraments , and deliver them over to us , though somewhat corruptly , by their adding more Sacraments than ever Christ ordained , and abusing those which we retaine with divers unwarrantable rites and Ceremonies . In a word , we received from you some truth mingled with errour ; wee have pared away your corruption , as a worme out of an Apple , and retained the wholsome and substantiall truth . PA. Was there any Chucrh in being save our Roman Catholick , in th● Ages next before Luther ? if so , show u● where it was , and with whom it held Communion ? PRO. When Christ came first into the World , the Iewish Church was corrupted both in doctrine and manners ; this Church had in it Scribes and Pharisees as well as Zachary and Elizabeth , Ioseph and Mary , Simeon and Anna , with others : these were all of the same outward Communion with the Priesthood ; for they resorted to the Temple , there they prayed and performed such holy rites as God himselfe enjoyned , untill they heard farther of the Gospel by Christs manifestation . Now I demand , were not Ioseph and Mary , and such good people ●ound members of Gods Church , although the Scribes and Pharisees bore all the sway in the Church , and had the Priesthood , the word , and Sacraments in their dispensing ? yet even then God had a s Remnant of holy people which made up his Church ; though others went under the name thereof , and exceeded them in number . Now with these , the sound part kept an outward Communion , yet did not partake in all their erronious doctrines , but condemned their grosser errours . In like sort , we were all of one outward Communion , of one Church wherin salvation was ; and yet we shared not in those errours , which a faction in the Church ( like the Pharisees of old ) maintained . For ( as learned Dr. Field saith t ) The errours which wee condemne at this day , whereupon the difference groweth betweene us and the Romish faction , were never generally received , nor constantly delivered , as the doctrines of the Church ; but doubtfully disputed , and proposed as the opinions of some men in the Church , not as the resolved determinations of the whole Church . For had they beene the undoubted doctrines and determinations of the Church , all men would have holden them entirely , and constantly , as they held the doctri●e of the Trinity , and other Articles of the Faith. And I have already showne from age to age , that the errours condemned by us , never found generall allowance , and constant consent in the dayes of our fathers , but that some worthy guides of Gods Church ever opposed them . And thus was our Church preserved under the Papacie , as whea●e is among tares ; u for wee were formerly mingled together like corne and chaffe in one heape , until the time of Reformation came , and winnowed our wheat from the chaffe of Poperie : So that howsoever divers under the Papacie ( not brooknig Reformation ) maintained sundry erronious opinions , Yet there were other worthies who ( living within that Communitie ) were not equally poysoned with errour , but firmely beleeved all fundamentall truth , and delivered the maine Articles of Christianitie over unto others . For Answer then to the Question , Where had our Church her being in the Ages next before Luther ? we say , It was both within the Romane Church and without it . For ( as learned Doctor Chaloner saith x ) Our Church had in those dayes a twofold Subsis●encie , ●he one , Separate from the Church of Rome , the other Mixt and conjoyne● with it . Separate , so it was in the Alb●genses , and Waldenses , a pe●ple who● so soone as the Chu●ch of Rome had inte●preted her selfe touching sundry of those maine poynts of d●ff●rence betweene us , and that a man could no l●nger Communicate with her in the publicke worship of God , by re●son of so●e Idolatrous rites and customes which sh● had establish●d● arose in France , Sav●y , and the places neere adjoyning , and professed the same substantiall Negatives and Affirmatives which we doe , in a state , Sepa●at● from the Church of Rome , having Pastours and Congregations apart to themselves , even unto this day . From these descended the Wicklefis●s in England , and the Hussites in Germanie , and o●hers in other Countries , who Ma●gre the ●urie of fire and Sword maintained the same doctrine as they did . The state of the Church mixt and conjoyned with the Church of Rome it selfe , consisted of those , who making no visible separation from the Roman profession , as not perceiving the mysterie of iniquity which wrought in it , did yet mislike the grosser errours , and desired a Reformation . To answer then the qu●stion directly , where was the Pr●testants Church before Luthers time ? that is , where was any Church in the world that taught that doctrine , which the Protestants now teach ? ● say , it was not onely apparant enough in the Greeke and Easterne Churches , and in such as had made an open separation from the Romish corruptions ; such as were in these Westerne parts , the W●ldenses , Wickle●i●ts and Hussites ; but it was also within the community of the Romish Church it selfe : even there ( as in a large field ) grew much good corne among tares and weeds : there ( as in a great b●rne , heape or garner ) was preserved much pure graine , mixed with store of chaffe . Object . I except against that you have said : Master Brereley cals y it a Ridle , To say your Church was under the Papacie as wheat is under the chaffe , and yet the Papacie was not the true Church . Answer . It is no Enigma or Ridle , it being all one in effect as to say ; the Christian Church at our Saviours comming , and after , consisting of Ioseph and Mary , Simeon and Anna , the Shepherds and the Sages , Christs disciples and others , was in and under the Iewish Church , consisting of Scribes and Pharisees ( who with their false glosses , and vaine traditions had corrupted the Law of God ) was not sanum membrum , a sound part of Gods Church ; but as our Saviour saith , Like sheepe without a Shepheard , Mark 6.34 . Object . You say your Church was under the papacie , but the papacie was not the true Church ; by the like reason you may say , that the hidden Church of God is preserved among the Turkes : can there be a Church without an outward ministerie ? Answer . It followeth not , and the reason of the difference is ; because amongst the Turkes there is not that meanes of salvation ; inasmuch as they have not given their names to Christ ; but the true Church of God may bee preserved withi● the Romish Church , in as much as they have the Scriptures , though in a strange tongue , as also Baptisme● and lawfull ordination , and the like helpes , which God in all ages used , that his Elect might begathered out of the midst of Babylon . And whereas you urge an outward and publike ministery , this maketh nothing against the Church of England , which ( for substance ) hath the same descent of outward ordination with the Roman Church , z neither can any man shew a more certaine pedegree from his great Grand father , than our Bishops and Pastors can , f●om su●h Bishops as your Church accounts canon●call in the time of King Henry the eight , and upward : such ●a●re evidence can wee produce for an outward and publ●ke mi●istery in the Church of England , and such ordination wee hold very necessary ; and yet in case it cannot be had , Gods children by their private reading , and meditation of that which they have formerly learned , may supply a the defect of a publike ministery , even as some Christians at this day being sl●ves in Turky or Barbarie , may be saved wi●hout externall ministery : but this is in case of extremity ; for us , we never wanted a standing ministery . Neither did the Waldenses , Wickliv●sts , and Hussites , ( for so I call them for distinction sake ) ever want an outward and lawfull ministery amongst them , for the administration of the word and Sacraments● Object . You say your Professors communicated with the Roman Church , but did not partake in her errours , as you call them ; did they not joyne with them in the Mass● , and the Letanies of the Saints , and the like ? Answer . The thing wee say is this ; that howsoever they outwardly communica●ed with Rome , yet divers of them misliked in their heart their grosser erro●s , they groaned under the Babylonish yoake , and desired reformation , besides , many of them were ignorant of the depth and mysterie of poperie . Object . If your Protestant Church were in b●ing , at , and before Luthers appearing , then did such as were members thereof , either make profession thereof , or not : b if they did , tell us their names , and where they did so : if they did not , then were they but dissemblers in Religion , according to that of Saint Paul , Rom. 10.10 . and our Saviour , Math. 10.33 . Answer . I will but take what your Rhemists grant , and re●o●t your owne argument : they say c ; That the Catholike Church in their time was in England , although it had no publike government , nor open free exercise of holy function : whence I argue thus ; if their Roman Church had any being at that time in England , then their Priests and Iesuits , either made publike profession of their faith , or not : if they made open profession , why then did they goe in Lay-mens habits , and lurke in corners ? if they made not open prof●ssion , then were they but dissemblers . Besides , I have already given you in a Catalogue of our professors , who within the time mentioned , witnessed that truth which wee maintaine by their writings , confessi●ns , and Martyrdom . Now , for us wee have rejected nothing but popery , wee have willingly departed from the Communion of their errors , and additions to the faith ; but from the Communion of the Church wee never departed . In a word , there were some who openly , and constantly withstood the errours and cor●uptions of their time , and sealed with their bloud that truth● which they with us professed : others dissented from the same errours , but did not with the like courage opp●se themselves ; such as would s●y to their friends in private : Thus d I would say in the Schooles , and openly , Sed ( maneat inter nos ) diversum sentio , but keepe my Councel , I thinke the contrary . PA. Was not the Masse publickly used in all Churches at L●thers a●pearin● ? was Protestancie then so much as in being ? saith Master B●e●ely . PRO. If by a Protestant Church , ( saith learned Doctor Field , we me●ne , a Church beleeving and teaching in all poin●s as Protestants doe , and beleeving and teaching nothing but that they doe , the Latine , or West Church ( wherein the Pope ●yran●ized before Luthers time ) was and continu●d a true Protestant Church ; for it taught as we doe , it condemned the superstition wee have removed , it groaned under the yoke of tyranny which wee have cast off ; howsoever there were many in the mid●t of her , that brought in , and maintained superstition , and advanced the Popes Supremacie . But if by a Protestant Church they understand a Church that not onely dislikes and complaines of Papal usurpation , but also abandon●th it ; and not onely teacheth all necessary and saving truth , but suff●reth none within her jurisdiction to teach otherwise ; wee confesse that no part of the Westerne Church was in this sort a P●otestant Church , till a Reformation was begun of evils formerly dislik●d . Now whereas it is obj●ct●d , that the Masse ( wherein they say many chiefe poin●s o● their R●ligion are comprehended ) was publickely u●ed at Luthers appearing . It is answered by Doctor Field that th● usi●g o● the Masse as the publicke Liturgie , is no good proofe ; inasmuch as manifold abuses in p●actice besides , and contrary to th● word of the Canon and the in●en●●●● of them that first compo●ed the same● have cre●t into i● ; as also sundry Apocryphall thi●gs have slipt into the publicke Service of the Church , these things will b●tter appeare by ●articular instances . Concerning private Masses , wherein the P●iests alone doth Communicat● without the p●ople , it is contra●y to ●he Canon of ●he M●sse , saying in the ●lurall number [ Sumpsimus ] we have ●ec●ived ; g an● Quo●quot ex hoc altaris participatione , &c. That all wee which in ●he participat●on of the Altar , have receiv●d the sacred body and bloud of t●y Sonne● &c. Iohn Hossme●ster a learned man , expounding the prayers of th● Mass● , hath these w●rds ; h The thing it s●lfe proclaimeth it , th●t as w●ll in the Gre●ke , as Latine Church , not onely the Priest which sacrif●●eth , but the other Priests and Deacons also , yea and the people , or at le●st some part of them did Commu●icate● which custome how it grew out of use I know not ; but surely wee should labour to bring it in againe . By this it appeares , that the Priests receiving alone and the neglecting or excluding the communicating of others , as no● much nec●ss●ry , is indeed a poynt of Romish Religion ; but con●rary to the words of the Canon ; and ●he ancient custome of the Church : it proceeded from the i●devotion of the people , or rather ●he negl●g●nce or errour of the guides of ●he Church , that either failed to stirre them up to the perform●nce of such a duty , or made them bel●eve their Act w●s sufficient to com●unicate the benefits of Christs passion to th●m ; but this course was misliked by them of the bet●er sort . Concerning Communion in one kind , that is another poynt of Romish Religion , supposed to be conteined in the Masse , which yet wan●s the liking and approbation of the best and wo●thiest guides of Gods Church then living : i Cassander saith , It is sufficiently manifest , that the ●niversall Church of Christ untill this day , and the Westerne or Romane Church , for more than a thousand yeares after Christ , did minister the Sacrament in both kinds to all the members of Christs Church , at least in publicke , as it is most evident by innum●rable testimonies , both of Gre●ke and Latine Fathers . It is true indeed , ●hat in case of necessi●ie , as when children , or such as were sicke and weake , were to ●eceive the Communion , th●y used to ●ip the mysticall bread into the consecrated wine , under pre●en●e of Ca●efull avoiding the danger of spilling it , and greater reverence to●ards the holy Sacrament : from this custom● wh●●● yet was ●isl●ked ( as appeares by Hildebe●● 〈…〉 k ) some proceed●d farther , and began to teach the people , that seeing the body and blood of Christ cannot be separated , in that they partake of the 〈◊〉 they partake of the other also , and that therefore it was sufficient to receive in one kind alone . N●●th●r y●t could this give satisfaction ; for howsoever the custome of communicating under one kind prevailed ; yet there wanted not such as sufficiently expressed their judgement , that communicating in both kinds , as Christ first did institute , and the Church for a long time observed , was fit and convenient , perfect and compleat , and of more efficacie , and cleerer representation , than the other under one kind alone . Come to another maine point , the proper , and propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and the dead , and see whether at Luthers appearing , before and after , all that used that Liturgy had such an opinion of a sacrifice . Saint l Ambrose , and Saint Chrysostome m , by way of correction say , Wee offer the same sacrifice , or rather the remembrance thereof . Peter Lombard proposing the question , whether that which the Priest doth , may properly be named a Sacrifice , or Immolation , answereth ; n that Christ was only once truely and properly offered in sacrifice ; and that h●e is not properly immolated or sacrifised , but in Sacrament and Representation onely . Lyra saith , o that If thou say the Sacrifice of the Altar is daily offered in the Church ; it must be answered , that th●re is no reiteration of the sacrifice , but a daily commemoration of that sacrifice that was once offered on the Crosse. Georgius Wi●elius , a man much honoured by the Emperours Ferdinand and Maximilian , p defines the Masse to be a Sacrifice Rememorative , and of prayse and thankesgiving , where many give thankes for the price of their Redemption . The Author of the Enchiridion of Christian Religion , publish●d in the provinciall Co●ncell of Colen , saith ; q In that the Church doth offer the true body and blood of Christ to God the Father , it is meerely a representative sacrifice ; and all that is don● is but the commemorating and representing of that sacrifice which was once offered on the Crosse. By that which hath beene said , it is cleare that the best and worthiest guides of Gods Church , both before and after Luthers time , taught not any new reall offering of Christ to God the Father as a propitiatory sacrifice to take away sinnes , but in effect as wee doe ; namely , that the sacrifice of the Altar is only the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiving , and a meere representation and commemoration , of the sacrifice once offered upon the Crosse , his being the reall sacrifice on the Crosse , ours only the Sacramentall Representation , Commemoration , and Application thereof ; so that Christ is not newly offered any otherwise , than in that hee is offered in the view of God , nor any otherwise sacrifised , than in that his sacrifice on the Crosse is commemorated and represented . And thus the Fathers terme the holy Eucharist , an unbloody Sacrifice , not because Christ is properly , and in his substance offered therein , but because his bloody sacrifice upon the Crosse , is by this unbloody commemoration represented , called to remembrance , and applyed . Besides these points mentioned , I have already produced witnesses in all ages and in all parts of the world , rejecting those bookes as Ap●cryphall that wee doe ; and showne , that even untill Luthers time , the Church did not admit the Canon of Scripture which the Romanists now doe , nor ever accounted those bookes canonicall , which wee thinke to bee Apocryphall : and by these instances it may appeare , That all were not Papists who held with the Masse . Th● thing then we say is this ; that though the Masse was generally in u●e , at , ●nd b●fore Luthers time● yet diver● poynts belonging th●reunto , were not beleeved by t●e worthie●t guides in God , Church , at , and before Luthers time ; though indeed there were some in the Chu●ch ●hat so co●ceived of them , as the Romanists now doe ; and the reason hereof is this . They were not generally received by all m●n , nor as the und●ubted determinations of the Church ; not as Dogmata fidei , but Dogmata scholae , controverted , and dive●sly disputed among the learned , & holden with great libertie of Iudgement by the greatest Doctors ; as appeares by their owne bookes of controversies , written by Bellarmine , Sua●ez , Azorius and others , which confute their owne writers almost as much as they doe Pro●estants . Besides , had they beene the undoubted doctrines and determinations of the Church , all men would have holden them uniformly , entirely , and constantly , r as they held the doctrine of the Trinity , the Creation , the Incarnation of the Sonne of God , and other Articles of the Faith. Objection . If these points were held as you say , not by the best members of the Church , but by a domineering faction therein ; how came it that the prevailing faction suffered others to dissent from them in judgement ? Answer . So long as men yeelded outward obedience to the Church-ceremonies without scandall ; in other things they were suffered to abound in their owne sense ; so that they submitted thems●lves to the obedience of the Church of Rome . Besides , the Church of R●me had not so strictly defined those Tenets in any Councel before , as afterwards they did in the Councel of T●ent . PA. Our name Catholicke is ancient ; your Protestant name came not in till after Luther : Besides , it is a scandalous thing for your Church to derive authoritie from Wickliff● , Husse , Luther , and Calvin . PRO. Indeed , the name Protestant began upon the s prot●sting of the Elector and La●d grave against the Edict : howsoever , the Faith is ancient , though the name bee not , and yet if you stand upon names , wee are called t Christians , and into that name were wee u Baptized ; and that is anci●nter than your Roman catholicke . Now you are called Catholickes , but it is with an aliâs , or addition , Roman-Ca●holickes ; as much as to say , Particular Vniversall , the part is the whole , one Citty the wo●ld ; and it is your selves that terme you Catholickes . Now if one Papist call another so , it is but as if one Mule should claw another . The Hagarens boldly usurped the name of Sarazens , although they were only the brood that sprang from the wombe of Hagar the hand-maid of Sara . The Papists by this terme Catholicke , worke upon simple people , arguing from the one , to the other , as if all the priviledges of the Catholicke Church belonged to the Romane , but we tell them , as x Optatus did the Donatists ( who pinned up the Church in a corner of Africke , as the Romanists now con●ine her to their See ) that Their Church is Quasi Ecclesia , in some sort a Church , but not the Catholicke Church , but an unsound member thereof . We doe not derive our Church from any other than the Primitive , Catholicke , and Apo●tolick● Chu●ch ; The Lord is not farre from every ●●e of us ; y for we are also his off spring . Christ Iesus is the top of our ki●ne , and Religion the stocke . Your Pedegre m●y be drawne in part from some of the ancient Here●i●kes ; in ●espect of your Invoca●ion of Sain●s and Angels● you are a kinne at least by the halfe bloud to the Angelici , Who ( as Saint Aust●ne saith ) z were inclined to the worship of Angels ; and were from thence , as Isidore noteth , a Called Angelici , because they did worship Angel● . By your Hyperdal●a , and w●●ship given to the blessed Virgin , you shew your selves allied to the Collyridian Here●ikes , whom Epiphanius b termes Idolaters ; now th●y were called Collyridians , from the Collyrides or Cakes , which at a certaine time of the yeare they used to offer unto the blessed Virgin , sacrificing to her as to the Q●eene of heav●n . By your doctrine of merit , and workes of supererog●tion , you resemble the Pelagians or Catharists . Isidore notes it for a propertie of the Catharists , or ancient Puritans c To glory of their merits . Thomas Wald●n saith , It was a branch of the Pelagian heresie to ●old , d that according to the measure of meritorious workes God will reward a man so meri●ing . Now the Rhemists , a sprig of this branch , main●aine ; That they doe wo●ke by their owne freewill , and thereby deserve their salvation ; as also that , f Good workes are meritorious , and the very cause of salvat●on , so farre that God should be unjust , if he rendred not h●aven for the same . Now concerning the names of Wickl●ffe and Husse , Luther and Calvin , wherewith you press●u● ; you sh●ll not hereby drive us from holding that with them which th●y held of God : for though wee rejoyce not in names drawn● from men , but in the name of Christians , into the which we are bap●ized ; yet wee know no great harme by them , nor you , we thinke ( set slaunders apa●t ) why we sh●uld bee ashamed of them , more than o●r Fathers were of Caecilian , g of whom the D●natists c●lled th●m Caeci●ianists : but had they beene as evill almost as their enemies report them ( from which imp●tations they are alr●a●y cleared ) an● thei● doct●ine ●ix● with l●●ven as was the Ph●risees ; yet Saint Paul hath tau●ht us , h to acknowledge our selves even P●●●ise●s ( i● need be , not onely Lutherans , or Waldens●s ) in that the Pharisees taught a truth of Christian faith , to wit , the Resurrection of the dead . In a word , we esteeme of Calvin and Luther , and the rest of the first Reformers as worthy men , but wee make them not Lords over our i faith . PA. What thinke you of our fore-fathers , that lived and died in the time of Poperie as you call it ? they were of our Religion . PRO. I thinke charitably of them , that they might bee saved , for many of them were well meaning men , and wanting meanes of better instruction , they were carried with the sway of the times , and as Saint Paul saith , 1. Tim. 1.13 . Did it ignorantly , like those two hundred , 2. Sam. 15.11 . who in simplicity of heart followed Absalon , knowing nothing of his treason and rebellion intended : they knew not the depth and mysterie of poperie , not their Merit of condignity , nor their severall sorts of adoration , their Latria , Dulia , and Hyperdulia . Indeed the Scriptures and Church-service were lockt up in an unknowne tongue ; and yet even in the depth of Poperie ( as appeares by a Councell held at Clyffe , and also by a Provinciall Constitution of Iohn Peckam , Arch-bishop of Canterbury ) The Priests were k enjoyned to teach the people the heads of Christian faith and Religion , and namely to expound unto them the Creed , the ten Commandements , and the Sacraments ; and that vulgariter , that is ( as the Glosse there saith ) in the vulgar and mother tongue , to wit , in English to the native English , and in French to the French-borne ; so that even in those da●ker times , there was a measure of explicite faith required at the hands of Lay-people , and they were to be trained up in the knowledge of those Credendorum ; so farre as the Letter of the Creed might leade them ; and Faciendorum , such as the Decalogue appointed them ; and Petendorum , comprised in the Lords prayer ; and Recipiendorum tendred in the Sacraments . It is Lyrae's l conceit , that when Saint Paul saith , 1. Cor. 14.19 . Hee had rat●er in the Church speake five words with his unde●standing , then ten thousand in a strange tongue ; that those five words , were those Agenda and Credenda , which concerne our faith and manners ; as also those Vitanda , Timenda and Speranda , which the Pastors were to declare unto the people . Besides , there were divers parcels of the Creed concerning Christ , and namely touching his Incarnation , Passion , his Resurrection and Ascension that were wont to be represented to their memories and meditations in the severall Festivities and Holy-dayes which the Church solemnized . Besides , wee hope the better , for that they erred in points of lesse moment and danger , such as blemished indeed , but tooke not away the Churches being : and that they held the true foundation of Religion , that is , Iustification , and Salvation , by Iesus Christ his merits onely , God dealing graciously with our fore-fathers , in that this point was ordinarily taught in their bookes of Visitation and Consolation of the sicke . In this respect , wee hope that divers , both formerly and in our dayes , who live Papists , die Protestants : for howsoever in their life time they talke of Workes , Merits , and Satisfaction to God ; yet on their death-bed divers of them find little comfort in Crosses and Crucifixes , Pictures and Popes pardons , in Agnus Dei's , blessed G●aines , Reliques , and the like : then they renounce all meere humane satisfaction , merit and workes ; and breath out their last breath in the Protestant language of that holy Martyr Master Lambert , m who lift up his hands , such hands as he had , and his fingers ends , flaming with fire , and cried out to the people in these words ; None but Christ , none but Christ. The example of Stephen Gar●iner Bishop of Winchester is notable to this purpose : n when the Bishop lay sicke on his death-bed , and Doctor Day Bishop of Chichester comming to visit him , began to comfort him , repeating to him such places of Scripture , as did expresse or import the free justification of a repentant sinner , in the blood of Christ ; hereunto Winchester replyed : What my Lord ( quoth he ) will you open that gap now ? then farew●ll altogether ; you may tell this to such as me , and others in my case , but open once this window to the people , and then farewell altogether . La●tly , we are not simply , and in euery thing to follow our Ancestors : it was the argument of Simmachus the heathen o ; Our religion which hath continued so long is to bee retained ; and our Ancestors to be followed by us , who happily traced their fore fathers : but the Lo●d saith , p Walke yee not in the ordinances of your fore-fathers , neither after their manners , nor defile your s●lves with their Idols ; I am the Lord your God : walke yee in my statu●es , and keepe them , and not after q your vaine conversation which yee have received by the tradition of the Fathers , as Saint Peter speakes . Object . If you hope so well of our fore-fathers , why hope you not so well of us their children ? Answer . The parties are not alike ; besides there is great difference of the times , then and now ; the former were times of ignorance , these are the dayes wherein light is come into the world ; in what they erred , they erred ignorantly , following the conduct of their guides , doing as they taught them ; and so were mislead as Saint Austine saith , r Errantes ab errantibus , by their blind guides : but upon better information wee presume , they would have reformed their errours . Now he is more to bee pitied who stumbleth in the darke , than in the day-light ; men are now admonished of their er●rours , offer is made to them to be better instructed , so that their censure will bee heavier , if either they dote on their owne opinions , unwilling to bee instructed in the reveled truth : or after sufficient knowl●dge and conviction , for some worldly respects , they wilfully and obstinatly persist in their old errors ; and ( which is farre worse ) hate and persecute the maintainers of the truth . Saint Cyprian saith , s If any of our Predecessors , either of ignorance of simplicity , hath no● observed and held that which our Lord hath taught us by his word and example , by the Lords mercy pardon might bee granted to his simplicitie : but to us that are now admonished and instructed of the Lord , pardon cannot bee granted . Saint Augustine t puts a difference betwixt Heretikes , and them that beleeve Heretikes ; and he saith farther : u They that defend an opinion false and perverse without pertinacious selfe-mindednesse ; especially , which not the boldn●sse of their owne presumption hath begotten , but which from their seduced and erronious Parents , they have received , and themselves doe seeke the truth with care and diligence , ready to amend their errour , when they find the truth ; they are in no wise to bee reckoned among Heretikes : this was the case of our Fathers under the Papacie . In a word , our Fathers they lived in those errours of ignorance , not of obstinacie , and knew not the dangerous consequence of them ; such men by particular repen●ance of sinnes knowne , and generall repentance of unknowne , might by Gods mercie be saved . Object . If holding the foundation will serve , as you seeme to say in the case of our fore-fathers , then we may safely obtaine salvation in the Church of Rome . Answer . This followeth not ; for the Church of Rome buildeth many things which by consequent destroy the foundation : uu Rome doth both hold the foundation , and destroy it ; she holds it directly , destroyes it by consequent . As the Galathians held the foundation ( to wit , salvation by Iesus Christ ) and yet withall held a necessity of joyning Circumcision with Christ ; which doctrine , by consequence destroyed the very foundation , for so Saint Paul wrote unto them , Galat. 5.2.4 . If they were circumcised , Christ profited them nothing , h●e became of none effect unto them , they were fallen from grac● . In like sort , Poperie opposeth the Faith , not directly , but obliquely , not formally , but virtually , not in expresse termes , but by consequence . Poperie overthrowes the foundation by consequence , whiles it brings on so many stories of unsound adjections , and corrupt super-additions , upon the ancient ground-sole of Religion , as are like to ●ndanger the whole frame . The learned , and acute Doctor , Doctor Hall , now Lord Bishop of Exceter , gives severall instances hereof . x Poperie overthroweth the truth of our Iustification , whiles it ascribes it to our owne works : the All-sufficiencie of Christs owne Sacrifice , whiles they reiterate it daily by the hands of a Priest. Of his Satisfaction , while th●y hold a payment of our utmost farthings , in a devised Purgatorie . Of his Mediation , while they implore others to ayde them , not onely by their Intercession , but their Merits ; suing not onely for their prayers , but their gifts : the value of the Scriptures , whiles they hold them unsufficient , obscure in points ess●ntiall to salvation , and bind them to an uncertaine d●pendance upon the Church . Now for the simpler sort , whil●s in truth of heart , they hold the maine principles which they know ; doubtl●sse , the mercy of God may passe over their ignorant weakenesse in what they cannot know . For the other , I feare not to say , that many of their errours are wilfull . The light of truth hath shined out of heaven to them , and they loved darkenesse more than ligh● . Thus farre that learned ●ishop . PA. The Protestants ( at ●ast many of them ) con●●sse there may be salvation in our Church ; we absolutely deny there●s salv●tion in theirs : therefore it is saf●r to come to ours , than to s●ay in theirs , to be where almost all grant salvation , than where the greater part of the world deny it . PRO. This point is fully cleered by the judicious Author y of the Answer to Fishers Relation of his third Confer●nce . Vpon this very point saith h●e z , ( that we acknowl●dge , An honest ignorant Papist may be saved ) they worke upon the advantage of our Charitie , and their owne want o● it , to abuse the weake ; but if they would speak truly , and say , many Protestants indeed con●esse , there is salvation possible to bee attained in the Romane Church , but yet the errours of that C●u●ch a●e so many ( and some , such as weaken the foundation ) that it is very hard to goe that way to heaven , especially to them that have had the truth manifested unto them ; the heart of this Argument were broken . The force of this Argument lyes herein ; that wee and ou● adv●rsaries consent , that there is salvation to some in the Romane Church . What ? would you have us an malicious ( at least as rash ) as your selves are to us , and denye you so much as possibilitie of salvation ? if we should , we might make you in some things straine for a proofe . But we have not so learned Christ , as either to returne evill for evill in this h●adie course , or to deny salvation to some ignorant silly Soules , who hold the foundation , Christ Iesus , and survey not the building . But this was an old tricke of the Dona●ists who shut up the Church in Africke , as they doe now in Rome , and the Romane See. For in the point of Baptisme ( Whether that Sacrament was true in the Catholicke Church , or in the part of Donatus ) they exhorted all to bee Baptized among them : Why ? Because both parts granted , that Baptisme was true among the Donatists ; which that peevish sect most unjustly denied the sound part , as Saint Austine a delivers it . I would aske now , had not the Orthodoxe Bap●isme among them , because the Donatists denyed it injuriously ? or should the Orthodoxe against truth , h●ve denied Baptisme among the Donatists , to cry qui●tance with them ? Besides , what have they gained by some Protes●ants confession , saying tha● some might be saved in the Romane Church ? this terme , [ Might be Saved ] gr●nts but a Possibilitie , to some we●ke ones , no sure or safe way to salva●ion . For a safe way they can hardly goe , who pertinaciously adhere to their errours , having sufficient meanes to be bet●er informed . Howsoever , their reckon●ng is like to bee ●he heavier , who for some by-respects oppose a know●e truth , which they either doe , or might beleeve , if their hearts were upright , and not perversly obstinate , and not onely so , but draw other we●ke ones to their bent . Saint Augustine saith , b There will be ever a difference betweene an Hereticke , and a plaine well meaning man th●t is mis-led , and b●leeves an Hereticke . God pittieth the blind , that would faine see and cannot ; but wi●l he pitty them that may see and will not ? that harden themselves in their affected wilfull blindnesse ? he delivered Ionas from d●owning in the bottome of the Sea , will you plung your selves therefore , to see if God will deliver you ? Because we grant , c ( saith that most learned Prelate , Doctor Vsher ) that some may scape death in Cities , and Streets , in●ected with the Plagu● , will you therefore be so foole hardy , after warning giv●● of the present danger , as to chuse to take up your lodging in a Pest-house ? if you doe , we may well say , in our C●arity , Lord have m●rcie upon you : but you may justly feare , that you dangerously tempt the Lord , to send you Strong delusion to beleeve a lye , d b●cause you received not the love of the truth , to beleeve it . L●stly , if we grant you a possibility of salvation , and you deny the same to us ( which yet is not yours to give , or to withhold ; ) ●h●s shewe●h not tha● you have mo●e truth on your side than wee , but rather that wee have more charity than you , who without truth or modesty ( a● our learned Prov●st of Queenes Colledge in Oxford hath showne in his Answer to Charity mistaken ) dare af●●rme , that Protestancie destr●yeth salvation . B●● l●t n●t the Protestant b●e discouraged with this h●●dy censure ; for wee are confident , that the faith p●o●essed in the Church of England is the Catholike , O●th●doxe , and saving ●aith , and we can shew good ●eason ●o● it . For to b●leeve the Scripture of the two T●staments , to b●l●●ve the th●ee C●eeds , in the sense of the ancient P●●●itive Chu●ch , to receive the foure great generall Coun●●ls , so m●●h magnified by antiquity ; to admit , What ever the Fathers for the first five hundred yeares with joynt consent agreed upon , to bee bele●ved as a necessary point 〈◊〉 salvation , or at least-wise to bee humbly silent , not presuming to condemne the same , is a faith , in which to live and die , cannot but give salvation , specially being accompa●ied with a godly life , and a faithfull death . Now whether it bee wisedome in such a point as Salvation is , to fors●ke a Church , in the which the g●ou●d of salvation is f●●me , to follow a Church , in which it is possibl● o●e may bee saved , but very probable one may doe wo●s● , if he looke not well to the foundation , judge ye●● I am sure Saint Augustine h thought it wa● not , and judged it A great sinne , in point of salvation , for a man to preferr● 〈…〉 , incertainties and naked ●os●ibilities b●fore an 〈◊〉 and certai●e course . Now this ●ul● of Sa●nt Augustines makes for us ; for wee goe upon cert●in●●●s , an● walke in the Via tu●a , the safe way , ●s th●t le●rn●d Knight , and my worthy good 〈…〉 hath showne at large . 〈…〉 b●ene said , the vanity of the 〈…〉 for ( as Master ●●del saith , in hi● 〈…〉 Wad●sworths motives ) by the 〈…〉 b●tter to have become a Iewish Pro●elite , i● th● Apo●●les time , then a Christian : for the Christians acknowledged the Iewes to bee the people of God , and s●iled them brethren , notwithstanding their zeale to the Ceremonies , and traditions of their Fathers , excused their ignorance , and ba●e with ●hem . Whereas on the contrary they called those that professed Christ , Heretikes●nd ●nd S●ctaries , accursed th●m , drew them out of their Synagogues , imprisoned them , as you doe now the Protestants . By like reason a Pagan in Saint Augustines time , should rather have made hims●lfe a Christian among the Donatists , then with the Catholikes . For ( as it is already noted ) the Catholikes granted the Donatists Baptisme to be true , and accounted them bre●hren : the Donatists on the contrary l renounced their brother-hood and baptisme both , rebaptized such as fell to their side , used these formes of speech to their friends , m Save thy soule , become a Christian , like to those termes used by our Romish Reconcilers at this day . PA. Prove what you say , that in poynt of Religion you goe the safe way . PRO. This appeares to be true , in that divers of your side , the moderate and sober sort at least , n doe oftentimes grant our Conclusions , and that in sundry things our course is the safer . As in making no Image of God. In trusting onely in the merits of Christ. I● worshipping none but the Trinity . In directing our p●ayers to our Lord I●sus Christ alone . In allowing Ministers to marry . In divers other points also , many of your side , say the same with the Protestants , as it is already shown in this trea●ise . And therefore , if you will force the Argument , to make that the safest way of salvation , which differing parts agree upon ; why doe you not joyne with u● , since for the Positive , and Affirmative Articles of our Religion , no● on●ly the m●st , but al● , Pr●t●stant and Pap●●● ag●e● therein ? For example s●ke , Wee agree on bo●h sides , the Scrip●ures to be the R●le of Faith , the bookes of the old Testam●nt written in Hebrew to bee Canonicall , that wee are justified by Faith , that God hath made two Receptacl●s for mens s●●les aft●r death , Heaven and Hell , that God may ●e wo●shipped in spirit wi●hout an Image , tha● we are ●o pray unto God by Christ , that there bee two Sacram●n●s , that Christ is really rec●ived in the Lords Su●per , that Christ made one oblation of himselfe upon the Crosse , for the Redemption , Propi●iation , and Satisfaction for the sinnes of the whole world . In a word , where they take the Negative part , as in with-holding the Cup from the Lai●ie , fo●bidding the administration of the Sacraments in the vulgar tongue , and restraining the marriage o● P●iests , yet even in th●se they condescend unto u● , for t●e lawfulnesse of the thing● in themselves , and in resp●ct of the law of God , an● o●pose them onely in rega●d of their conveniencie , and for that the Church of Rome hath otherwise orda●ned . But see , our ●ffi●mations content them not . To the Scriptures the● add● and equalize unwrit●en Traditions ; to ●he Hebr●w Canon , the Apocrypha ; to Faith in the act of Iu●●ification , works ; to Heaven and Hell , Purga●o●ie , Limbus Patrum , and Limbus Puero●um ; to the wo●ship of God in spirit , Images ; to Prayer to God by Chri●t , I●vocation and Intercession of S●in●s ; to Bap●isme and ●he Lords Supper , five other Sacram●nts ; to the Reali●ie of Christ in the Sacramen● , his Co●porall presence ; to t●e Sacrifice of Ch●ist upon the Cros●e , ●he Sacrifice in t●e Masse ; wit● other like ; and these wee deny , as be●ng Corrupt Additions to the Faith. These be our grounds wherein we enter-common with them ; and these be their additions and improvements which they have raised and enclosed upon the Lords Freehold . Let us bri●fely survey them both : Bell●●m●ne is confid●nt that The Apostles never used to Preach openly to the people other things than the Articles of the Apostles Cre●d● the ten Comman●●m●nts , and some of the Sacraments : because ( saith he ) p these are simply necessary and profitable for all men ; the rest besides , such as that a man may be saved without them . If one worship God without an Image , they will not deny but that this spirituall worship is acceptable to God. If one call upon God alone , by the onely mediation of Christ , they will not say that this d●votion is fruitlesse . If one say the Lords Prayer , or other devotions in the vulgar tongue , they will not deny but that such Prayers as a●e made with understanding and in a knowne languag● may be fruitfull and effectuall . For Lyra saith , q that If the people understand the prayer of the Priest , they are better brought to the knowledge of God , and they answ●r Amen with greater devotion . Cardinal Cajetan who had often performed the publike service in an unknowne tongue in the Church , yet contrary to his practice professeth , r It is better , by Saint Pauls doctrine , for the ●difying of the Church , that publike prayers were made in a vulgar tongue , to bee understood indifferently by Pri●sts and people , ●han in Latine . If a man receive the Sac●ament in both kinds , they will not , I suppose deny , but that it is very comfortable to receive bo●h p●rts o● the Eucharist . Alexander of Hales , the first and greatest of all the Schoole m●n , pr●fesse●h ; s that Though the order of receiving in one ki●d b● suf●icient , yet the order of both kinds is of mor● merit , for inc●ease of devotion and faith . If o●e pe●forme the best wo●kes hee can ( which wee also require ) and stand not upon the point of me●it , but only upon the mercy of God , as we doe , this likewise serves . to justi●ie our doctrine ; for they themselves hold it a Mans safest course , t not to trust to his owne merits , but wholly and solely to cast himselfe on the m●rcy of God in Iesus Christ. Now this justifies our Religion , and shewes that it is su●●icient to salvation ; in as much as the grounds thereof ( setting aside the matters in question betweene us ) are fully able to instruct a man in all points necessary to his salvation , both how to live religiously , and to die comfortably . Hence also it followeth , that ( by their owne conf●ssion ) the controve●ted points are unnecessary , and superfluous ; in as much as a man may bee saved , who neither knowes nor beleeves , nor practises these additions and excesses of theirs . Object . You talke of our excesses , and conceale your owne defects : now ( as the Arch-bishop of Spalato saith ) n Heresie consists in the defect , not in the excesse of beleeving ; and he is an Heretike , who falleth short in his faith , by not bel●eving something that is written , and not hee that abounds in his faith , by beleeving more than is written : now you faile , in that you scant the measure of your faith . Answer . The Analogie and integrity of faith is hurt and broken by Addition , as well as Subtraction , by Diseases as well as by Maimes . We are forbidden , under the same p●naltie , either to adde , or diminish ought from Gods word : Faith is of the nature of a rule , or certaine measure , to which if any thing be added , or taken from it , it ceaseth to be that Rule . Faith ( saith Tertullian ) Is contained in a Rule ; to know nothing beyond it , is to know all th●ngs . And a little before , z This first of all wee beleeve , that no more ought to be b●leeved , as necessary to all . V●rtue is in the mean● , vice as well in the exces●e , as in the defect in our body the superabundance of humours is as dangerous as lacke of them : as many dye of Plethories as of Consumptions ; a hand or foote which hath more fingers , or toes than ordinary , is alike monstrous , as that which wanteth the due number . A foundation may bee as well overthrowne , by laying on it more than it will beare , as by taking away that which is necessary to support the building : Errours of addition are dangerous , as appeares by these instances following . The Samaritanes feared the Lord , and served their owne Gods , 2. King. 17.33 . The Galathians beleeved the Gospell , yet retained also , and observed the legall Ceremonies , Galath . 4.9 . a Helvidiu● held that blessed Mary had other children unto Ioseph her husband , after her sonne Iesus ; here was an excesse of beliefe , for hee beleeved more than was revealed : this opinion of Helvidius , although it be not denied in the Scripture , yet it is erroneous , in as much as it is not therein affirmed , neither can it bee thence deduced by any good consequence ; and therefore the Church holding that shee was a pure Virgin both before the birth of Christ , and that shee also continued a Virgin all her life after , condemned Helvidius for an Heretike : now why were the Helvidians adjudged Heretikes ? surely because they beleeved more than was reveled in the word , and would have thrust that on the Church for an Article of faith , which had no ground at all . And this is your case , you over-●each in your beliefe as the Helvidian Heretikes did : witnesse your tenets of Transubstantiation , adoration of Images , Invocation of Saints , Purgatory , the Popes supremacie , and the like ; wherein your faith is monstrous , b like the G●ant of Gath , who had on every hand sixe fingers , and on every foote sixe toes : and so it is with you ; who in the new Creed of Pope Pius the fourth , have shuffled in more Articles of faith than ever God , and his Catholike Church made . Neither doe wee fall short in our beliefe : for wee measure our faith , by the standard and rule of Gods written word● now since it jumpeth with the rule , it neither faileth in defect , nor over-reacheth in excesse . Now by this time I hope I have performed the taske which I undertooke . PA. You have indeed given in a Catalogue of visible Professors in some part of Christendome , but what is this to the whole universall Church ? PRO. Very much ; for these particular congregations serve to make up the whole state of Christ his Church militant here on earth : now this Church farre and wide dispersed , hath in her particular members ( for substance of doctrine ) taught as wee doe . To begin with the Easterne Church amongst the Grecians and Armenians . The Grecians held , c that the Romane Church had not any Supremacie of Iurisdiction , authoritie and grace , above , or over all other Churches . They celebrated the Sacrament of the Eucharist in both kinds , d as we doe . They denied that there was any Purgatorie fire . They denied f Extreame unction to bee a Sacrament properly so called . They g reject the Religious use of Massie Images , or Statues , admitting yet Pictures or plaine Images in their Churches . The Armenians denie h the true body of Christ to be really in the Sacrament of the Eucharist under the Species of Bread and Wine . They denie i the vertue of conferring grace , to belong to the Sacraments Ex Opere operato . They denie the Popes Supremacie , and are subject to two of their owne Patriarches whom they call k Catholicks . They l reject Purgatorie . They have their publicke Service in their m vulgar language . The North-east Church , amongst the Russians and Muscovites , as they were converted to Christianitie by the Grecians ; so have they ever since continued of the Greeke Communion and Religion . They n have their divine Service in their owne vulgar language . They o reject Purgatorie . They communicate in both p kinds . They denie the spirituall efficacie of q Extreame unction . To proceede , now to the South-Church amongst the Habassines , or mid land Aethiopians : the Character of their Religion is this ; as I find it in Ma●hew Dresser , who reports it from Francis Alvarez , a Portugal Priest , and sometimes Legat into Aethiopia . They communicate in both r kinds . They use no s Extreame unction . They t reverence the Saints , but they pray not unto them ; they doe much honour the mother of Christ , but they neither adore her , nor crave her mediation . They have their Liturgie , or Church Service in their owne u vulgar language . They x have a Patriarcke of their owne , who is confirmed and consecrated by the Patriarcke of Alexandria , on which See they depend , and not on the Romane . In the Westerne Church we have the consent of the Waldenses in France , the Wicklevists in England , commonly called Lollards , and Thaborites in Bohemia . Here be then the Greeke and Latine Church ; the Churches in the the East , West , North , and South ; all of them teaching ( for substance of doctrine ) as we doe . I know indeed , that Bellarmine sleighteth these Churches of Graecia , Armenia , Russia , and Aethiopia , saying , y We are no more moved with their examples , than with the examples of Lutherans and Calvinists ; for they bee either Hereticks or Schismaticks . So that all Churches ( be they never so Catholicke and ancient ) if they subscribe not to the now Roman● Faith , are either Schismaticall or H●reticall . But we may not be so uncharitable to these afflicted Churches . For ( as learned Bishop Vsher saith ) z if wee should take a survey of these Churches , and put by the points wherein they did differ one from another , and gather into one body the rest of the Articles wherein they all did generally agree , we should find , that in those propositions which without all controve●sie are universally ●eceived in the whole Christian world , so much truth is con●eined , as being joyned with holy obedience , may be sufficient to bring a man unto everlasting salvation . Object . I except against the Greeke Church , for that it denieth the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son of God. Answer . Every errour denieth not Christ the foundation . Indeed it would have grated the foundation , if they had so denied the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne , as that they had made an inequalitie betweene the Persons ; but since their forme of speech is ; a that the Holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father by the Sonne , and is the spirit of the Sonne , and since , ( as the Master of the Sentences saith ) b Non est aliud , It is not another thing to say , the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne , then that he is , or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne , in this they seeme to agree with us , In eandem fidei sententiam , upon the same sentence of Faith , though they differ in words : Since I say , they thus expresse themselves , they may continue to bee a true Church , though erronious in the point mentioned . In like sort , Scotus ( following his Master Lombard ) saith , c that The difference betweene the Greekes and the Latines in this point , is rather Verball , in the manner of speech , than Reall , and materiall . Besides , it seemes by the same Scotus , that the Greeks held no other Heresie , d then Saint Basil and Gregory Nazianzene held , whom yet no man durst ever yet call Hereticks ; so that you must give us the famous Greeke Church againe . PA. I have yet divers e exceptions to take at your Catalogue , as also at your English Martyrologie ; for you have named out of Foxe , some for Martyrs , who were very meane persons , namely , Iohn Claydon , a Curriar of Leather , Richard Howden a Wooll-winder ; as also some , by name , Thomas Bagley , for a Martyr , who was a married Priest. PRO. What though some of them were tradesmen ? did not Peter stay divers daies in Ioppa , with one Simon a Tanner , Act. 9.43 . Was not that godly convert Lydia a seller of Purple ? Act. 16.14 . Hath not God chosen the base things of the world to confound the mighty ? 1 Cor. 1.27 . &c. Besides , they were no such base people ; for among others , I produced Sir Iohn Old Castl● , Lord Cobham , and Sir Roger Acton knight , burnt for Religion in the raign of king Henry the fift : and in Queen Maries daies , there were five Bishops , one and twentie Divines , and eight Gentlemen who suffered for the truth . Lastly , what though some of them were simple people ? f Ruffinus makes mentiō of a heathen philosopher at Nice , who through his great skill in the art of Logick , wound himselfe ( Adder-like ) out of the bishops arguments , that they were not able to put him to silence , until there rose up in the Councel a simple man who knew nothing but Christ and him crucified , who with some blunt Interrogatories so amazed the Philosopher , that not onely as a dumb man he had not a word to reply , but yeelded himselfe to the truth which the plaine man had uttered . Yea but they were married priests , whom we produce for martyrs ; what then ? Gregory Nazianzen brings in his Father , who was Bp. of the same See , speaking thus of him ; g Nondum tot annisunt tui , quotjam in sacris mihi sunt peracti victimis : that is ; the yeares of thine age , are not so many , as of my Priesthood . Whereby it is cleere that Gregorie Nazianzen was born to his father , af●er the time of his holy Orders . h And least any man should susp●ct that this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , this nondum , or , not a● yet , might reach on●ly to the bi●th , not to the begetting of Gregorie Nazianzen , so as perhaps hee might be born after his fathers o●d●rs● and begotten before th●m ; it is further shown ( which makes all sure and plaine ) that Gorgonia and Caesarius the sister and brother of this Gregory , were by the same father begottē af●erwards ; as is evide●t both by that verse of Nazianzen , who speaking of his mother , as th●n childles whē sh● begged him of God , i layes ; Cupiebat illa masculum soetum domi Spectare , magna ut pars cupit mortalium . And the cleare testimony of Elias Cretensis , saying , k Although if you regard his birth , he was not the onely child of his Parents , forasmuch as after him both Gorgonia , and Caesarius were borne . Now if this Bishop after holy Orders conversed conjugally with his wife , and that without the Churches scandall ; then is it not any disparagement to some of our Martyrs that they were married Priests . PA. Fox nameth some for Martyrs , who afterwards were living . PRO. There might be some that received the sentence of death , and martyrdom , and yet the same parties upon occasion , and mediation , might come to be reprieved , or released , and this not come to Mr. Foxe his knowledge . This cānot discredit the whole story , taken for the most part out of your owne registers , and other credible witnesses . PA. You have put some into your Catalogue who were excommunicate persons , and condemned to bee burnt for Heretikes : as namely Husse , and Wickliffe , whose body was digged up forty yeares after his buriall , and burnt by the Popes command . PRO. Indeed they were Heretikes in such manner as Christ was called and condemned for a l Blasphemer ; or as Saint Paul saith m , After the way which they call heresie , so worship we the God of our Fathers , beleeving all things which are written in the Law and the Prophets . Indeed , if this be heresie , to acknowledge no other foundation , then that which God himselfe hath laid , no other Mediatour then Christ Iesus , nor any expiation but by his blood , nor any propitiatory sacrifice but his death , nor any satisfaction to Gods justice but his obedience , nor any rule to guide us infallibly to salvation , but his word contained in the holy Scriptures ; if this I say be heresie , then may they and we bee so reputed . Now to discover who be Heretikes indeed , let the Reader looke to the voice of the Church before these odds grew , and see which way the Church inclined . For though in the Primitive Ages thereof , the writers could not speake so expresly and punctually against heresies untill they sprang up , yet even then they delivered such grounds , as might serve to over-throw the errours and superstition which afterwards arose . Yea but our Professors have beene excommunicated and condemned , so was the blind man in the Gospell , whom our Saviour cured , he was cast out of the Synagogue , n and yet Christ tooke him into his protection , for the good profession he made . It might be that in those papall censures , the keyes were mistaken , or the wards of the locke changed , and then Errante clave Ecclesia , their censures did not bind . The Ephesine Latrocinie ( for so it was called , Synodus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) o adjudged and condemned Flavianus , an holy and Catholike B●shop , for an Heretike , under that censure Flavian●● died , nay was martyred p by them : the holy Councell at Chalced●● after the death of Flav●anus , loosed that band , wherewith the Latrocinous Conspirators at Ephesus , thought they had fast tyed him , but because their Key did erre , they did not in truth , they honoured and proclaimed Flavianus for a Saint and Martyr , q whom the faction of Dioscurus had murdered for an heretike . By which example and warrantie of that holy Councell , our Church of latter time , restored to their Pr●stine r dignity and honour , to Flaviani in their age , Bucer and F●gius after their death ; what time that papall conspir●cie had not only with an erring Key bound , but digged up their bodies out of their graves , and burned them to ashes . The papall faction hath beene but too peremptory in their censures ; ●hey were farre from the moderation of the Curat in Paris , who being to publish an Excommunication , what time there was great difference between the Emperou● Fredericke the second , and Pope Innocent the fourth , he thus acquitted himselfe . Give eare ( saith he to his s Parishioners ) I have received commandement to pronounce the solemne sentence of Excommunication against the Emperour Frederick , candles put out , and bels ringing . Now I know not the cause that deserves this , and yet I am not ignorant of the great odds that is betweene them : I know also that one of them doth wrong the other , but which it is I know not : so farre forth then as my power doth extend , I excommunica●e and pronounce excommunicated one of the two , namely him that doth the injury to the other , and absolve him that suffereth the wrong , which is so hurtfull unto all Christendome . Thus farre he . Now the thing which wee require on the behalfe of out professors so injuriously dealt withall , as that their sworne enemies b●came both their witnesses and their Iudges , which even common reason it selfe t forbids ; that I say which we crave , is this ; that since neither themselves have confessed the crimes laid to their charge , nor others have as yet justly convicted them thereof , that they may have the benefit of the Law , and accordingly be restored , according to an ordinary u Canon provided in that case . PA. uu Your Waldenses , Wicklifists and Hussites , and such as you account Confessors and Martyrs they errea in divers points , they varied amongst themselves , and differed from you ; so that they cannot belong to the same Church . PRO. Concerning Wickliff● , Husse , and the rest , if they have any of them borne record to the truth , and resisted any innovation of corrupt Teachers in their times , even to blood , they are justly to be termed Martyrs : yea , albeit they saw not all corruptions , but in some were themselves carried away with the streame of error . Else , if because they erred in some things , they be no Martyrs ; or because we dissent from them in some things , we are not of the same Church , both you and we must quit all claime , to Saint Cyprian , Iustin Martyr , and many more whom we count our ancients and predecessors , and bereave them also of the honour of martyrdome , which so long they have enjoyed . Irenaus , and Iustin Martyr held the error of the Millenaries , Cyprian & many others held Rebaptization necessary for such as were baptized by heretikes . S Austin , and the greatest part of the Church for sixe hundred yeares , held a necessitie of the Eucharist to Infants ; and in other things differed one from another ; and from the Church in the aftertimes , correcting their errors : yet because they all entirely and stedf●stly held all the necessary fundamentall principles which these errors did not infringe , neither held they these errors obstinatly , but only for want of better information ; they were of the same Church and Religion whereof we are . S. Austin saith , x There be some things in which the most Learned , and best Defenders of the Catholike Rule ( the bond of faith preserved ) do sometimes not agree among themselves ; and one in some one thing saith righter than anoher . Now if the different opinions of the Fathers in some points , hindred not their union in substance of the faith , and their being members all of the same Church : why should the like or lesser differences now among the Protestants , hinder their union in substance of the same faith , and their being members all of the same Chuch , both among themselves and with the Fathers ? yea but Wickliffe and Husse with others mentioned in our Catalogue , they erred in point of faith ; it is true , but yet their error was not joyned with pertinacy ; they err●d not incorrigibly , bu● for want of better information ; they erred in that doctrine of faith , wherein the truth was not fully scanned , declared , and confirmed by a Plenary Councell , as S. Austin speaketh y ; had it beene , we may well thinke the very same of all those holy men , which Austin most charitably z saith of Saint Cyprian ; Without doubt they would have yeelded to the truth , being manifested unto them , by the authority of the whole Church . Object . We are at vnity , but your Protestants are at ods , a and namely your Lutherans and Calvinists in the point of the Sacrament , the one holding Consubstantiation , and the other opposing it . Answer . The Protestants , especially we of the Church of England are at unity , as appeares by the Harmony of our confessions , as also by our joynt subscriptions to the Articles of R●ligion established . And for the point mentioned , the difference is nothing so great , as you would have it thought : for ( as the mo●t learned and judicious Zanchius b observeth , and our c Doctor Field out of him . ) In all necessary points , both the parties agree and dissent in one unnecessary , which by right understanding one another , might easily be compounded . Both sides d saith Zanchius , doe agree , that the elements of bread and wine are not abolished in their substance , but onely changed in their use ; which is , not onely to signifie , but also to exhibit and communicate unto us , the very body and blood of Christ , with all the gracious working and fruits thereof . Both parties agree , that the very body and blood of Christ are truely present in the Sacrament , and by the faithfull truely and really received . Thus farre all parties agree , that is , in the whole necessary and sufficient substance of the doctrine of this Sacrament : for the other matter wherein they differ , e de modo , of the manner how Christ is present in the Sacrament , seeing it is not expressed in the Scriptures , in the judgement of Zanchius , f it might well be omitted ; and they themselves confesse , when they have gone as farre as they can to determine it , still it is ineffable , and not possible to be fully understood . It is enough for us ( saith the same g Zanchius ) to beleeve the body and blood are there , though how and in what manner wee cannot define . So then in this maine controversie betweene them about Consubstantiation , which as Zanchius saith , h did afterwards occasion that other of ubiquity ; in both these controversies , the main truth on both sides is out of controversie ; that Christ is really & truly exhibited to each faithfull Communicant , and that in his whole person he is every where : the doubt is onely in the manner , how he is in the Symbols , and how in heaven and earth . Now for other ods amongst us , they be but in Ceremonies , or at worst , in points of no absolute consequence ; whereas the differences amongst Papists concerne the life of Religion . They differ concerning the Supreame authoritie of the Church , whether it be in the Pope , or in the Generall Councel . The Councels of Constance and Basil determined , i that a Generall Councel was above the Pope ; the Councel of Florence decreed the Pope to be above a Generall Councel . They differ concerning the manner of the conception of the Virgin Mary . The Dominican Friers following the Thomists , hold that she was conceived in Originall sinne ; the Franciscans hold the contrary . The moderne Popes dis●gree with the ancient , concerning the dignitie of universall Bishop , adoration of Images , Transubstantiation , Communion in both kinds , and the Merit of good workes , as is already showne in the fifth and seaventh Centurie of this treatise . So cleere is it , that some doctrines of the later Roman Church were opposed by the ancient Roman Bishops th●mselves , to wit , adoration of Images k , as also the dignity and title of universal Bishop l , by Gregorie the Great : cōmunion in one kind m ● as also the merit of good works , n by Leo the first : o Transubstantiatiō by Gelasius the first . Besides , the Iesuits and Dominicans differ at this day concerning the weighty point of Free-will and Grace . The truth is , the Popish Faith varieth not onely with their persons , but according to time and place ; so that they can exchange their tenets upon occasion , advance or cry downe their opinions at their pleasure , as may best serve for their advantage . For , ( as Azorius the Iesuit saith p ) It falls out often , that that which was not the common opinion a few yeares since , now is . And , that which is the common opinion of Divines in one Country , is not so in another ; As in Spaine and Italy , it is the common opinion , that Latreia , or divine worship is due to the Crosse , which in France and Germa●y is not so , but some inferior kind of worship due thereunto . And Navarrus the Casuist sayes , q That at Rome , no man may say , that the Councel is above the Pope , nor at Paris , that the Pope is above the Councel . In a word , the Papists are at great odds , but they cunningly conceale them ; insomuch as it is observed , that some of them would say to their friends in privat ; r Thus , or thus I would say in the schooles , and openly ; Sed ( maneat in●er nos ) diversum sentio ; but keepe my counsel , I thinke the contrarie . PA. We may ( haply ) be at ods in some Scholasticke points ; but not in matters defined by the Pope and a Generall Councel . PRO. You would have us beleeve , that at the sound of the Pop●s sentence , like frogs in a marish , at the falling in of a great log or stone , you are all hushed and silenced : but it is not so , for since the Trent decrees were published , divers of your side are divided about the sense thereof ; i●somuch as they differ in the maine points thereof , which in your account are fundamental , and the deniers therof reputed Hereticks . This may appeare by these instances . The Pope in the Councels of Trent and Florence decreed the Apocrypha to bee Canonicall Scripture ; yet since that decree , s Driedo , and t Sixtus Senensis have called them in question , and rejected them . The Pope in the last Councel● is decreed u to be above a Councel ; and yet since that time , uu Alphonsus à Castro hath writ the contrarie . The Trent Councel teacheth ( Sess. 6. ) Iustification by Inherent righteousnes , condemning those that beleeve the imputation of Christs Righteousnesse ; and yet Albertus Pighius x defendeth imputed ●ighteousnesse , & so doth Cardinal Contaren , in his treatise of Iustification . Again , the Pope decreed against the certainty of grace & salvation , defining ( Sess. 6. ) that no man should beleeve these things of himselfe ; & yet y Catharinus defended the contrary , holding that a man might have the certainty of Faith touching these things● and when the Trent Councels authority was objected against him , he eluded it by divers sleight distinctions . The truth is , the Papists have a kind of unitie , to wit , a superstitious and hypocriticall crouching to the popes chayre● for so long as they agree to go to mass , swear to the popes supremacy , other things are tollerated although they cōsent like harp & harrow . And surely were it not for the great profit , and riches , which knit the parts of this body together like twinnes that have different heads , but tied together by the belly , we should see this great body of the papacy , would soon be divided , scattered , and dispersed . Howsoever , for any differences amongst the Protestants , we may thankefully acknowledge , that it was the wonderfull Providence of God , that so many severall Countries , Kingdomes and States , abandoning the abuses of the Church , or rather Court of Rome , and making particular reformation in their owne dominions , without generall meetings and consents , should have no more , nor greater differences than are found amongst them . Object . It is usuall with you in your Catalogue to say , such and such , as namely S. Bernard , or the like , taught ( for substance ) as you doe , agreeing only with you in some fundamentall points ; but this will not serve to make them members of your Church ; for by the like reason the Quartadecimanes , Novatians , Donatists , and Pelagians might pretend to the Catholike Church , in as much as they agreed therewith in some fundamentall truths . Answer . 1 Agreement in one or more fundamentals , maketh not a man a Catholike Christian , tho disagreement in any one fundamentall joyned with obstinacie makes a man an Heretike . 2 To make a man actually a member of the true Church , more is required than agreement in the profession of the same fundamentall points of faith : for not only heresie , but schisme also excludeth a man from Communion with the true Catholike Church . 3 Fundamentall points as well conce●ne life and manners , as faith ; and he that impugneth the doctrine of the Decalogue , is as well an Heretike , as he that impugneth the doctrine of the Creed . Nicholas directly impugned the one , and by evident consequence the other , by maintaining his impure communion , or rather community of wives . 4 The Quarta decimanes , who kept Easter on the fourteenth day precisely were of two sorts . Some , as Polycrates and other Bishops of Asia , kept it so , meerely in imitation of S. Iohn the Evangelist ; and those were never condemned for Heretikes . Others kept the fourteenth day by vertue of the Mosaicall Law ; and these by consequent destroyed the foundation ; as those did among the Galathians , who urged Circumcision , to whom S. Paul there professeth , That Christ should not profit them , and that they were fallen from grace . 5 Novatians erred in a fundamentall point concerning Repentance , and by consequent overthrew that Article of the Creed , Credo remissionem peccatorum . 6 The Donatists were rather Schismatikes than Heretikes , and rather made a rent in the Church , then were excluded from it . Saint Austin in his seventh tome , every where calleth it Schisma Donati : in the end they grew to bee heretikes , and denied in effect that fundamentall Article , Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam . 7 The Pelagians erred in divers fundamentall points , concerning originall sinn● , and the necessity of Grace . For farther answer we say , that the Authors we produce against the Romanists are of two sorts . 1 Some we alleadge onely as Testes veritatis , in such or such a point , or points of faith . 2 Others wee produce as members of our reformed Church , and fore-runners of Luther . Of the first sort is Bernard , very orthodoxe in all points against the Pelagians , but otherwise tainted , and an open enemy to the Albigenses . Of the second sort are the Waldenses , Wicklifists , and Hussites who ( as appeares by their confessions of faith extant in Orthuinus Gratius , and the History of the Waldenses ) agree with u● in all Fundamentals , not onely in some , as the Heretikes above mentioned agreed with the Church . Objection . What though Saint Hierome , Bernard , and others agree with you in some generall truths ? men of contrarie religions may have divers materials of doctrine common to both : now this is but a genericall agreement , which is no more than the agreement betweene a man and a beast . Answer . 1 Saint Hierome and Bernard are not well rancked together ; Saint Hierome was a through Papist in no point ; Bernard was in some , living in a corrupt age , seaven hundred yeeres after Saint Hierome . 2 Besides , we answer , that Waldo , Wickliffe and Husse , with others , agree with us not onely Generically , in the common grounds of Christianitie , but Specifically in those formall points , which we hold at this day against the Romane Church ; and as for such calumnies as are cast upon them , they are already confuted in this treatise , neither will any indifferent person regard them ; for when once that infamous name of Hereticke was fastned upon a man , nothing was too heavie for such an one , any thing was beleeved of that man : and from thence it is , without question , that we find so many , so absurd , so senselesse opinions imputed to them by the Romists ; such as indeede could not in truth with any possibilitie , fall into the imagination , or fancie of any man , much lesse bee doctrinally , or dogmatically delivered . Besides , many of the books and writings of Wickliffe and Husse are extant , wherein are found no such doctrines as Papists have charged them with , but rather the contrary . So that we hope there is no indifferent person will regard their slanders ; for even at this day , when things are in present view and action , they calumniate the persons , and falsifie the doctrine of our professours , as grossely as ever Pagans traduced the Primitive Christians , for instance sake , they give it out , that we hold , that z God regardeth not our good works ; whereas we beleeve , that a Good works are necessary to salvation ; and , b Works are said to be necessary for us unto salvation , to wit , not as a cause of our salvation , but as a meane or way , without which wee come not unto it ; as a Consequent following Iustification , wherewith Regeneration is unseparably joyned . In like sort , they gave out , that Beza recanted his Religion before his death ; whereas he lived to confute this shamelesse lye , and with his owne hand wrote a tract which he called Beza Redivivus , Beza Revived . Thus also of late have they , dealt with that Reverend zealous and learned Prelate , Doctor King , late Bishop of London , giving it out in their idle c Pamphlets , that hee was reconciled to the Church of Rome , which is unanswerably d proved to bee a grosse lye : for towards his death hee received the holy Sacrament at the hands of his Chapleine , Doctor Cluet , Arch-deacon of Middle-sex : he received it together with his wife , children , and family , whom he had invited to accompany him to that Feast : whereof hee protested in the e presence and hearing of divers personages of good note , that his soule had greatly longed to eate that last Supper , and to performe that last Christian duty before he left them : and having received the Sacrament , he gave thanks to God in all their hearing , that he had lived to finish that blessed worke , for so himselfe did call it . And then drawing neerer to his end , ●e expresly caused his Chapleine , then his Ghostly Father , to reade the Confession and absolution , according to the ordinarie forme of Common prayer appointed in our Li●urgie . Did this worthy Prelate now dye a Papist , who to his last breath , communicated with the Church of E●gland ? Besides , whereas Preston the Priest was given out to be the man that reconciled the Bishop to the See of Rome ; Preston ( as appeareth by his Examination and Answer taken before divers honourable Commissioners f ) protested before God , and upon his conscience , as he should answer at the dreadfull day of Iudgement , that the said Bishop of London did never confesse himselfe unto him , nor ever received Sacramentall absolution at his hands , nor was ever by him reconciled to the Church of Rome , neither did renounce before him the Religion professed and established in the Church of England . Yea , he added farther , that as he hoped to be saved by Christ Iesus , he to his knowledge , was never in company where the said Doctor King , late Lord Bishop of London was , neither did he ever receive letter from him , nor did write letter unto him , neither did he ever ( to his knowledge ) see the said Bishop in any place whatsoever , nor could have knowne him from another man. Object . You have singled out some testimonies of Fathers , Schoole-men , and others ; and alleadged them on your owne behalfe , as if they had thereby beene of your Religion : whereas they be our witnesses , and speake more fully for us , than for your side . Answer . According to the Rule in law ; Testem que● quis inducit pro se , te●etur recipere contra se ; you have produced them for your owne ends , and now in reason you cannot disallow them , when they are alleadged by us ; so that you must give us leave to examine your men upon crosse Interrogatories . Besides , one may be a materiall witnesse , who speaks home to two or three Interrogatories , although he cannot depose to all the rest . It is no part of our meaning to take the scantling of our ancestors Religion from some single testimonies , wherein they either agree with , or dissent from us ; but f●om the maine body of the substantiall points of doctrine which are controverted betwixt us at this day . Neither make wee any such simple collection , Such a man held such a point with us , therefore he was a Protestant : no more then we allow them to frame the like : Such a man , in such or such a particular , agreed with the n●w Church of Rome , therefore he was a Papist . For , it followeth no more than this ; an Aethiopian or Tauny-moore is white in part , namely in his teeth , therefore he is white all over . But our care hath beene , ( that since In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word is established , Deut. 19.15 . and tha● as g Hie●ome saith , One single witnesse , were it Cato hims●lfe , is not so much to bee credited ) to joyne together the severall testimonie● o● such worthies as lived in the same age ; presuming , that what some of note delivered , and the same not opposed by their contemporaries , that , that is to bee supposed to have beene the doctrine commonly received in those countries , and at that time . Vpon these and the like considerations , the Reader may bee pleased to rest satisfied with such passages as have beene produced on our behalfe , though not so thronged and full in every age ; inasmuch as divers of our Ancestors have not left unto us sufficient evidence , whereby it might appeare what they held in divers particulars . Besides that , there bee divers testimonies suppressed , so as we can hardly come by them ; as namely in Faber Stapulensis his Preface to the Evangelists , there is a notable place touching the Scriptures Suficiencie ; the words are these : The Scripture sufficeth , and is the onely Rule of eternall life ; whatsoever ag●eeth not to it , is not so necessary as superfluous . The Primitive Church knew no other Rule but the Gospel , no other Scope but Christ , no other Worship than was due to the Individuall Trinity . I would to God the forme of beleeving were fetched from the Primitive Church . Thus saith Stapul●nsis . Now this whole passag● is appointed by the Expurgatory Index of Spaine , to be l●f● ou● in their later editions ; and yet by good hap , I met with this passage h in an edition a● Bas●l● as also in anoth●r at Colen An. 1541. In like sort I ●●nd alleadged out of Lu●ovicus Vives , his Commentaries upon Saint Augustine d● Civitate Dei , these passages following touching the Canon of the Scripture , and the practised Adoration of Images in his time ; namely the same Vives saith , that The storie of Susanna , of Bel , and the Dragon are not Canonicall Scripture ; he saith also , that Saints are esteemed and worshipped by many , as were the Gods among the Gentiles . These places I carefully sought for , in the severall editions of S. Austin , at A●twerpe , Anno 1576. at Paris , Anno 1586. at Coleine , Ann. 1616. but no such place was there to be found , the Divines of Lovaine had taken a course with them , and suppressed these testimonies ; but by good hap I met with them in the Basil Edition , i Anno 1569. Object . Those whom you have named in your Catalogue , were k originally Catholikes , and not Protestants ; Wickli●fe and Husse were Catholike Priests , and Luther was an Augustine Frier : you cannot name such as were Protestants originally , they came forth of our Church . Answer . Whence I pray you sprang Christs Apostles ? were they not taken out of the Iewish Church at that time much corrupted ? S. Paul speaking of himselfe , and the service of his God , l saith , Whom I doe serve from my progenitors , meaning Abraham , Isaac and Iacob , the first Fathers of the faithfull ; for as for S. Pauls immediate predecessors , it is likely that they relished of the leven of the Pharisees . It can be no more prejudice to our Church , that Luther , Wickliffe a●d Husse were originally Papists , than to S. Paul that he was originally a Pharisee , or to S. Austine that he was orinally a Manichee , or to our Ancestors at the first conversion of our land that they were originally heathen , or to all true Converts that they were originally unregenerate . For as Tertullian saith , m Fiunt non nascuntur Christiani ; We are not borne Christians , but we become Christians . Neither is it true that wee can name none of our Church that were not originally Papists . For Farellus and the Waldensian Ministers for more than 400. yeares were not originally Papists ( though Waldo himselfe was . ) Besides , the Fathers for 600 yeares , and the Monkes in Britaine at Augustines comming were not originally Papists . In the Greeke Church from 700. to 700 afterwards , many thousands held as wee doe in all fundamentals , who never were originally Papists , nor millions of others in the Easterne Churches , and namely in the Greeke Church , there have bene from 700. to 700. afterwards , many thousands which held as we doe in all fundamentals , and never were originally Papists . Lastly , the like argument might be urged against all that embraced Reformation in Iosias dayes , that they originally were involved in the common errors and Idolatry of the Iewish Church . Likewise that Zachary and Elizabeth , and Simeon , and Anna , and the Apostles were originally deduced from that Church , which held many errors concerning the temporall kingdome of the Messias , and divorces for other causes than adultery , &c. Which errors Christ and his Apostles reproved . In England , and most parts of the world , the first Christians were originally Paynims and Idolaters : what prejudice is that to Christianity , or advantage to Heathenisme ? Object . Your Churches professors mentioned in your Catalogue wanted lawfull succession . Answer . There is a two-fold succession ; the one lineall and locall , the other doctrinall ; this of doctrine is the life and soule of the other . n Irenaeus describeth those which have true succession from the Apostles ; To bee such as with the succession of the Episcopall office , have received the c●rt●ine grace of t●uth : and this kind of succession hee calle●h the princip●ll succession . Gregory Nazianzen having said , that At●anasius succeeded Saint Marke in godlinesse , o addeth , That this succession in godlinesse is properly to be accounted succ●ssion : for he that holdeth the same doctrine is also p●rtaker of the same throne , but he that is against the doctrine , must be reputed an adversary , even while h●e sitteth in the thro●e , but the former hath the thing it selfe , and the truth : so that according to Irenaeus and Nazianz●n , succession in doctrin● su●ficeth : yea Nazianzen ( as we have heard ) makes it all one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; so that he which holds the same truth of doctrin● may bee said to sit in the same Chaire of succession . Besides , wee are able to shew succession also in place for ●ive hundred yeares in most parts of Christendome ; and since that in the Greeke Church untill this day , and in the Latine Church from the time of Waldo , in France , Bohemia , and other places . And for the Church of England , the lineall succession of her Bishops is showne particularly by Mr. Francis Mason , de ministerio Anglicano ; Mr. Goodwin in his Catalogue of the Bishops of England , and Mr. Isaacson in his Chronologicall Table of the succession of the Bishops of England . PA. Name in the space of a thousand yeares next before Luther , three knowne and confessed Protestant Bishops , succeeding each to other , and if you had such , expresse their agreement with you , in the maine points controverted betweene us . PRO. This demand was eagerly pressed upon me , by a Romish Priest , but the Stone which he hurled at mee , not comming forth of Davids sling , recoiles upon himselfe , like the stone that Achilles flung at a dead skull , which ●ebounded backe and strucke out the slingers eye● — Redijt lapis ultor ab osse , Actorisque suifrontem , ocul●squè petit . For I would in like manner demand of him to name three knowne and confessed Popish Bishops succeeding each other , who maintained the worship of Images before the second Councell of Nice ; or that beleeved Transubstantiation before the Roman Councell under Pope Nicholas● or that avowed the dry and halfe Communion before the Councell at Constance under Martin the fift ; or that held the effect of the Sacraments to depend upon the Priests intention before the Councell at Florence ; or defined the Pope to be above a Generall Councell before the Councell of Lateran under Leo the tenth ; or that determined the twelve new Articles of Pius the fourth his Creed to be all de Fide , and necessary to salvation , before the Councell of Trent . Besides , there is no necessitie of naming three Bishops succeeding each other , and opposing Poperie : It sufficeth to name such as opposed it , tho they sate not successively in the same Chaire ; for all Romish errors and superstitions rushed not in at once into the Church , but by degrees ; now such as held the fundamentals with us , and opposed any one error or more when they were first espied to creepe into the Church , they were Protestants , though they went not then under that name . Now according to this account of Protestants , wee can produce many more than three Bishops succeeding each other , who in their times made head against Romish usurpations and superstitions ; for instance sake , S. Austine , and with him two hundred and seventeene Bishops of Africa , and their successors for a hundred yeares together ( if their owne p Records be true ) opposed the Popes supremacie in point of Appeales . To speake nothing of the innumerable Bishops in the Easterne Churches , and the Habassines and Muscovites , and elsewhere succeeding each the other for many hundred yeares , differing in no fundamentall point from Protestants , and keeping no quarter at all with the Pope or See of Rome ; when Austine the Monke was sent into England by Gregory the Great , the most ancient British and Irish Bishops withstood the Popes authority and ordinances , stifly adhering to the Churches of Asia in their celebration of Easter ; and tho they were cut off from the Popes Communion , yet they sleighted it , and persisted in their former opinions and customes , as I have already showne in the sixth Centurie . In the later ages , q Rainerius the Popish Inquisitour , makes mention of two famous Bishops of the Waldenses , one Balazinanza of Verona , and one Iohn de Lugio , about the yeare 1250. And I have showne in the twelfth age , out of Mathew Paris , r about the yeare of Grace 1223 , that amongst the Albigenses , there was one Bartholomew who ordered and governed the Churches in Bulgaria , Croatia , Dalmatia , Hungaria , and appointed Ministers , insomuch as the Bishop of Portuense , the Popes Legate in those parts , complained thereof . And in the fifteenth age , I have showne out of Cochleus , in his Historie of the Hussites s , knowne and confessed Protestants , how Con●adus Arch-bishop of Prague became an Hussite , and held a Councel at Prague in the yeare 1421 and there compiled a Confession of their Faith agreeable to the doctrine of the Reformed Churches . Now those who succeeded the forenamed Bishops among the Waldenses and Albigenses , as also the Hussites , although they carried not the titles of Bishops , yet they exercised Episcopall authoritie in ordaining Priests , the Catalogue of whom is extant in the historie of the Waldenses and Albigenses . And thus they have in t Germany , those whom they call Superintendents , and generall Superintendents ; and where these are not , as in the French Churches , yet There are , saith Zanchius , usually certaine chiefe men that doe in a manner beare all the sway , as if order it selfe , and necessitie led them to this course . And what are these but Bishops in effect , unlesse wee shall wrangle about names , which for reason of State , those Churches were to abstaine from . PA. Since you impute so many errours to the Church of Rome , which you pretend to have reformed , tell us when those corruptions came in , for doubtlesse some histories would note them , some learned men oppose them : for in every great and notorious change , there may be observed the Authour , time and place , with the like Circumstances , as Bellarmine u saith . PRO. By the like reason it would follow , that a Tenant who had long dwelt ( he and his Ancestors ) in a decayed house , should not bee bound to repayre it , unlesse his Land-lord could tell him in what yeare or month every rafter or wall began to decay ; a sick patient should not purge out an ill humour , unlesse hee or his Physician could name the time , when his first mis-diet had bred this humour ; so Naaman because hee was once cleane , and could not tell the very time , meanes , and degrees of the comming of his Leprosie , might be proved to bee cleane still , and neede neither the Prophet nor the washing , 2 King. 5. Errours and abuses are not all of one sort ; there were some heresies , such as the Arrian and Nestorian , which strucke at the very head , the one at the divinitie of Christ , the other at the divinity of the Holy Ghost , and these being notorious , were soone discerned , and opposed , and herein Bellarmines reason many take place : but Poperie , like that mysterie of iniquitie , 2 Thes. 2.7 . works closely , it creeps and spreads abroad like a Cancker , or Gangreene , 2. Tim. 2.17 . it is like the Cockatrices Egge , a long time in the shell , before the Cockatrice it selfe appeare . Now these kinde of corruptions creepe into the Church secretly and insensibly , and are best knowne by their differences from their first pure doctrine ; so that if we can shew the present doctrines of Rome ( refused by us ) disagree from the Primitive , it is enough to shew there hath beene a change , though wee cannot point out the time , whē every point began to be changed . Tertullian saith , uu The very doctrine it selfe being compared with the apostolicke , by the diversity & contrarietie thereof , will pronounce that it ●ad ●or Authour , neither any Apostle , nor any Apostolicall man. x If from the beginning it was not so , and now it is so , there is a change . y All dranke of that Cup , now all must not : z all then prayed in knowne tongues with understanding , and all publike service done to edification , now the custome is altered , though wee know not when this change began . Besides , they that call upon us to show the time , place , and persons , of such and such changes in Religion , cannot the●selves performe the like . Gregory de Valentia , a learned Iesuite , confesseth , that the use of receiving the Sacrament in one kind , began first in some Churches , and grew to be a generall custome in the Latine Church , not much before the Councel of Constance , in which , at last ( to wit , about two hundred yeares agon ) this custome was made a law . But if they put the question to him , as they doe to us , and aske him , When did that custome first get f●oting in some Churches ? he returnes this for Answer , a Minimè constat , it is more than he can tell . Doctor Fisher b bishop of Rochester , and Cardinal Cajetan , c grant , that of Indulgences no certainty can be had , what their Originall was , or by whom they were first brought in Doctor Fisher addeth , d that Of Purgatorie , in the ancient Fathers there is no mention at all , or very rare , that th● Latines did not all at once , but by little and little receive it ; that t●e Grecians beleeve it not to this day : and that Purgatorie being so long unknowne , it is not to be marveiled that in the first times of the Church there was no use of Indulgences ; for they had their beginning after that men had a while beene scared with the torments of Purgatorie , which as the same R●ffensis saith , e was but Sero cognitum , lately knowne and discovered . The Originall of their private Masses ( wherein the Priest receiveth the Sacrament alone , and none of the people communicate with him , but are all lookers on ) Doctor Harding f fetcheth from no other ground , than Lacke of devotion on the peoples part ; now let them tell us in what Popes dayes the people fell from their devotion , and then we may haply tell them when their private Masses began . Bellarmine saith , g that The worship and Invocation of Saints was brought into the Church rather by custome than any precept . Concerning prayer in an unknowne tongue ; It is to be wondred how the Church altered in this point , ( h saith Erasmus ) but the precise time he cannot tell . So little reason have they to think that al such changes must be made by any one certaine author , it being confessed , that some of them may come in pedetentim ( as B. Fisher saith of purgatory ) by litle and little , not so very easie to be discerned ; some may come in by the silent cōsent of many , & grow after into a generall custome , the beginning whereof is past mans memorie ( as the abstaining from the cup ) & some may arise of the undiscreet devotion of the multitude ( as those of Purgatorie and Indulgences ) and some from the want of devotion in the people , ( as ●he private Masses ) and some also must be attributed to the very change of time it selfe ; as publicke prayers in an unknowne tongue , in Italy , France and Spaine , for there a long time the Latine was commonly understood of all : but when afterwards , i by the invasion of those barbarous nations , the Goths and Vandals , their speeches degenerated into those vulgar tongues that are now used there , then the language , not of the Service but of the people , was altered ; so that upon the fall of the Empire , learning began to decay , and the publicke Service no longer to be understood , by reason of the change of the vulgar tongues . Lastly , wee are able to show , ( as appeares by the eighth Centurie of this treatise ) when , and by whom corruption of doctrine hath beene brought in ; and how opposition hath beene made from time to time in case of the adversaries violent intrusion ; for instance sake , for the space of sixe hundred yeares and more , next after Christ , the Catholicke doctrine of the Church of Rome was this , that Images were not to be adored ; and this is witnessed by Gregorie the Great , who allowed k no use of Images but onely Historical ; for so he saith , They are not set up to be worshipped , but onely to instruct the people that be ignorant : yea he speakes positively , l that The worshipping of Images is by all meanes to bee avoided . Now this doctrine maintained by Gregorie the first , was changed by Gregorie the second and third , Adrian the first and second ; so that here we have taken them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the manner , to wit , with doctrine novel , and differing from their Ancestors , and therefore need no farther examination . But that the Reader may trace them along ; we find that this Innovation was resisted by three hundred thirtie eight Bishops at Constantinople , in the yeare 754 , and though afterwards it got strength at Nice , was defended by Rome , and at last got to bee a part of the Roman Faith ; yet was the same disliked , denied , opposed , and resisted by all the good men that lived in that and aftertimes , as Charles the Great , the councel of Franckford , Lewis his sonne , the Synod of Paris , Alcuinus , and the Church of England . PA. Will you charge our Religion with novelty ? can that bee called new which is of so long continuance ? PRO. Divers points of your Religion are confessed novelties ; your owne men yeeld , that for Above a thousand yeares after Christ , m the Popes judgement was not esteemed infallible , nor his authority n above that of a Generall Councell ; the contrary being decreed in the late Councels of Constance and Basil : that Not any one ancient Writer o reckons precisely seven Sacraments ; the first p Author that mentioneth that number being Peter Lombard , and the first Councell that of Florence : that in former ages for thirteene hundred yeares , q The holy Cup was administred to the Laity : that r divine service was celebrated for many ages , in a knowne and vulgar language , understood by the people : that Transubstantiation was neither named , s nor made an Article of faith before the Councell of Lateran , which was above twelve hundred yeares after Christ : besides , many more confessions of this kind which might bee produced . Now that a thing may be novell , though of long duration may appeare by this ; our Saviour when he would declare Pharisaicall Traditions to be Novelties , did not respect their long continuance in the corrupt estate of the Church , but saith , Math. 19.8 . Ab initio non fuit sic , that they were not from the beginning delivered by God , or practised by the Church : so that if the duration and antiquity of your opinions be but humane , that is , not Apostolicall , neither from Apostolicall grounds , they may according to Tertullian , t be esteemed new and novelties ; for a point is new in Religion that did not proceed from God and his blessed spirit , either intermin●s , or by deduction from his word that is the Ancient of dayes , whatsoever pretences of duration and continuance may be supposed . It remaineth then , that that is new in Religion which is not most ancient ; so that if you cannot derive your Religion further then from some of the Fathers , the tradition whereupon it is builded , is then but humane , and so a new thing , even Noveltie it selfe . And therefore Tertullian telleth us , u That is most true , which is most ancient , that most ancient which was from the beginning , that from the beginning which was from the Apostles ; as if there were no truth in faith that was not from the beginning . If Christ was alwayes and before all , truth is a thing equally ancient , and from all eternitie , saith the same uu Father ; and therefore whatsoever savor●th against the truth , this ( saith he x ) is Heresie , tho●gh it be of long continuance ; for there is no y prescription of time , that will hold plea against the Ancient of dayes , and his truth . I know that Pamelius in his notes upon Tertullian would ward off these testimonies by saying z , that Tertullian spoke thus , When hee began to fall into the fancie of Montanus ; but be it so , yet hee delivered some truths after hee lapsed into Montanisme : besides , Bellarmine for proofe of Monasticall vowes , and veiling of Nunnes , a alleadgeth divers places out of the same treatise of Tertullians , de Virginibus velandis , of veiling of virgins ; and then ( belike ) Tertullian was no Montanist , when Bellarmine for his advantage alleadged him . PA. Our Religion b Mr. Brerely is that good seed , which Christ the good husbandman first sowed in his field , Math. 13.24 . yours is like the Tares , which the enemy ( afterwards ) came and sowed among the wheate . PRO. A great part of your Religion , specially that which is controverted betwixt you and us , and namely your Trent additionals and Traditionals , was not sowne by the good husbandmen , Christ and his Apostles ; but by the envious man , by the craft of the man of sinne , and his complices , the sinnes of Christian men so requiring ; for ( as it is already observed ) erroneous doctrine , it may be , antiqua , ancient , but it cannot be , prima , that one truth and faith , Ephes. 4.5 . Which was once delivered to the Saints , as c S. Inde speakes : and therefore is Christ the Husbandman , first presented in the Parable , as Seminans , sowing good seed in his field , before the Enemy is produced Reseminans , resowing the same Acres with unprofitable graine . Besides , Religion is one thing , and Reformation another , the one presupposeth the other ; our reformation is of a later date , our Religion is the old Religion , coevall with the Primitive and Apostolike , howsoever you taxe us with noveltie . But the Disciple is not above his Master ; the Iewes could say to our Saviour , d What new doctrine is this ? and the Grecians to S. Paul , e May we not know what this new doctrine , whereof thou speakest is ? but wee say in our just defence , f it is not wee that aff●ct noveltie , but it is you that counterfeit the face of Antiquity ; as the g Gibeonites dealt with Ioshua , deceiving him by the shew of old sacks , old bottles , old shoes , old bread that was mouldie , as if they had come a farre off , whereas they dwelt but hard by : in like sort you put on a visour of antiquity , but once search the ground thereof , and draw aside this maske , and then your tenets appeare to be but noveltie in comparison of primitive antiquity : for as Tertullian saith , h That is true which is first , and that false which is later . In a word , we are no i Innovators , but Reformers ; we doe not professe any Religion new made , but a religion reformed , and refined ; so that wee may say with the Christian k Poet : Haec novitas , non est novitas , sed vera vetustas : Relligio , et Pietas Patrum instaurata resurgit , Quod tua corrupit levitas , et nota tuorum Segnities ; igitur si quis labentia tecta Erigat , et sterilem qui mansuefecerit agrum , Iudice te damnandus erit . It is no novell thing wee preach , But such as ancient Fathers teach . The truth which former Popes conceal'd , Doth now begin to be reveal'd ; Must he be blamed that repaires The ruin'd Church , and weed's out tares ? And thus have our Reformers done , And they for this must be undone . It is true then that the good seed was first fowne by the Apostles , and fructified in the Church generally for 60. yeares ; afterwards the Enemie sup●r-seminavit zizania , he resowed the tares , which in part were weeded out by Waldo , Wickliffe and Husse , but more universally and publikely by Luther , Calvine , and others ; so that wee have not sowne any tares upon the Churches gleabe land , but onely weeded out such as were sowne by others in the dead of the night , in the time of ignorance , not whilst the Husbandman himselfe slept , For hee which keepeth Israel neither slumbereth nor sleepeth , but cum dormirent homines , whiles men slept , that is , the overseers of the Vineyard grew carelesse , and negligent . And thus might tares be sowne , though the time and ●eedsman were not knowne : for it is confessed by your Trent-●athers , l That many things , through the fault of times , or the negligence and wickednesse of men , have seemed to have crept in [ to the Masse ] which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a sacrifice : and yet they cannot t●ll when these abuses crept in , nor by whose default . And thus by Gods assistance , I have finished the taske which I undertooke , having named out of good Au●hors , a Catalogue of such professours as taught ( for substance ) as the Church of England doth , and withall cleered the Catalogue of our professours from such exceptions as the adversarie hath made against them ; and in producing this evidence , I have ( as hee speakes in Iob 8.8 . ) enquired of the former ages , and made search of their Fathers , and have dealt as Ioseph's steward did when he made search for his masters Cup , He began at the eldest , and left at the youngest : and the Cup was found in Benjamin's Sacke , Gen. 44.12 . we have begun with the former ages , passed along the middle , and descended unto Benjamin's , even to the later ages , abutting on Martin Luther's time , and have found even with these younger ages the Cup that wee sought for , to wit , A Protestants Church , visible and conspicuous . And now having ( I hope ) satisfied your demand , Where was our Church before Luther ; I would require the like of you , namely , to show , if you can , out of good Authours , I will not say , any Empire or Kingdome , but any Citie , Parish or Hamlet , within five hundred yeares next after Christ , in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named , maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall , or these points of Poperie in speciall ; to wit , 1. That there is a treasurie of Saints Merits , and super-abundant sati●factions at the Popes disposing . 2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs Institution , to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kinds . 3. That the publicke Service of God in the Church , ought , or may be celebrated in an unknowne tongue . 4. That private Masses , wherein the Priest saith , Edite & bibite ex hoc omnes , eate and drinke ye all of this ; and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely , bee according to Christs Institution . 5. That popes pardons are requisite , or us●full to release soules out of purgatorie . 6. That extreame unction is a Sacrament properly so called . 7. That we may worship God by an Image . 8. That the pope cannot erre in matters of Faith. Shew us now , if you can , or any Papist in the world , that these points above named , which are maine points with you , inasmuch as you account the denyers thereof Hereticks ; shew us , I say , that they were generally and constantly held for Catholick Church tenets in the first five hundred yeares next after Christ , which is the very flower of primitive antiquitie . But of these matters , ( since this present conference is enlarged beyond my expectation ) at our next meeting , if you please . Meane time and ever , the Lord of his mercie direct us in his owne wayes , In the old way , which is the god way , as the prophet cals it , Ierem. 6.16 . and call home such as wilfully , or by ig●orance , have gone astray , that at length they may be brought to that m One Shepherd , and that One Sheepe fold of Christ Iesus : to whom , with his Father and the blessed Spirit , be praise for evermore . Amen . FINIS . Approbatio Censoris . PErlegi hunc Librum , cui titulus ( The Protestants Evidence , &c. ) Quem , quoniàm doctum judico , et in palaestrâ Theologiae versatis utilissimum , typis mandari permitto . THO : WEEKES . D. P. D. Episc. Lond. Cap. Domest . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A16161-e110 Gen●s●● 3.34 . Ierem. 6 . 1● . Notes for div A16161-e280 a Hosea 7.8 . b Popula● Israel non solum f●it inf●ctu● Idololatriâ Ieroboam , sed & Idololatrijs Gentilium existentiū circa populum Israel . Lyra in loc . Galath . 2.9 . 2 Sam. 3 39. Prov. 27. v. 6. Iudg , 14.18 . 1 Sam. 13.10 . * ●ardius enascitur seris umbram factura N●potibus Cupressus . Notes for div A16161-e15560 a Prot. Apolog. Tract . 3. chap. 2. sect . 2. p. 330. b Testes res omnes & reculae , nullam in orbe religionem nisi nostram imis unquam radicibus insedisse . Camp rat . 10. c Seculis omninò quindecim , non oppidum , non villam , non domum reperiunt imbutam doctrin● suâ . id . rat . 3. d Constat manifestè , neminē to●o o●be mortalium , ante M. Lutherum , hoc est , an●e annū 1517 〈◊〉 , qui eam fidem ten●r●t . Coster . E●ch●●id . Co●trovers . cap. 2. c Bristowes Motiv●s . Presat . & Motive 45. f Romani●ellarm ●ellarm . lib. 3. de E●cle● . cap. 2. g In Sole , id est● in mani●estatione . Aug. t●m . 7. cont lit● Petil. l. 2. cap 32. h So●t po●uit taberna●al●m in eis , id est , in ci●ti● Hie●on . i● Psal. 18. to . ● . i Ecce●●ia non apparebit , impi●s tunc persecuto●ibu● v●tra modum savientibus . Aug. epist. 80. tom . 2. k Math. 5.15.16 . l Chrysost. in Math● c. 5. hom . 10. tom . 2. * Montem ●on vide●● , n●lo mireris ; oculos non habent . August tract . 1. in epist. Ioan. tom . 9. m A●o●al . 17.9 . n Babylon mater fornicationum , Roma quidem est . Ribera in cap. 14. A●ocal . nu . 39. o De Româ intelligendum , non solum quali● sub Ethnicis I●peratoribus olim fuit , sed etiam qualis i● fine seculi futura est . Riber . in 14 Apocal. nu . 42. p Colligitur ●o●am , extremis mu●di ●●mp●ribus , post quàm a f●ie defe●erit , ad s●mm●m potentiam perve●●uram . Vi●gas in cap. 18. Apoc. com . 1. sect . 4. q Math. 18.17 . r Napier 〈◊〉 the Revel . P●op . 35. s Quisquis se univer●●le● Sa●er●otem ●o●at in ●●tion● suà Anti●h●●st in 〈…〉 . Greg. ●pi●t . lib. 6. ●p 30 to . 2. t Revel . 13.18 . u Revel . 20.3 . x Gregory the seventh , Ann. 1075. y Napier on the Revelat . p. 68. & 191 & 161 cited by the Prot. Apologie tract . 2. cap. 1 sect 4. z Perkins 〈◊〉 E●posit . of the Creed . pag. 400 a Prot. Appeale . ● . 1. c. 8. sect . 2. in Marg. lit . F. b Master Perkins on the Creed . pag. 307. c Omnes querunt que 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 in 2. 〈…〉 Ph●lip . d It lay hid un●e● the ch●ffe of Pope●●● , ●nd the t●uth of this , the Reco●ds o●●ll Ag●● ma●●fe●● . M. ●●rkins on the 〈◊〉 . ●ag . 4. ● . 〈◊〉 in solo Ab●l 〈…〉 August . in Psal 12● tom . 8. f 2 〈◊〉 . 28.24 . & ●9 . 7.8 . l Page 1● . m S●men est Sanguls Christianorum . Tertull in Apologet. cap. 50 to . 1. n Ingem●it totus orbis , & Arri●num se esse miratus est . Hieron . advers . Luciferian . tom . 2. o Math. 18.20 . Phil●m . 2. p Apocal. 12 14. q Rhem. Annot. on Thessal . 2.2 . sect 6. r Non est incredibile , Romam propè Antichrist● tempora , it a a●●lic●a● , ut quasi in Angulo , ●el in ●avernis terrae delitescat . Suarez Defensio fide● Cathol . lib. 5. c. 21. u The Orthodoxe F●i●h . chap. 3. Paragraph 3. * Acts and Monuments . vol. 2. lib. 10. pa. 1616. x 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . AElian . 〈◊〉 Histor. lib. 14. cap. 47. * Mo●tem non vident , nolo ●●●●eris ; oculos non habent . August . Tract . 1. in epist. Ioan. tom . 9. y Ecclesia propter ipsam mutabilitatem Luna nomine in Scripturis signatur . Aug. tom . 8 in Psal. 10. & tom . 2. ●p . 119. z Aliquando obscuratur . Id. ep . 48. a Fabian . Chron. ad Ann. 1495. b Se● D Iames of the Bastardy of false Fathe●s , and D. Raynolds Conference , Chap 8. Divis. 2. c A Treatise of the corruption of Scripture , Councels , Fathers . d D. Iames part 4. of the Mysterie o● the Indices expurgatorij . pag. 21. e ●unius in praefatione arte ●ndicem Expu●gato ium B●lgi●um ● se editum . 1586. referente Andr●● Rivet lib. 3. Critici Sacri . cap. 16. D. Ia●e● his Manuduction to Divinitie . g In 〈◊〉 S●riptur●s 〈…〉 quaecunque ●unt nec●ssaria Ch●ysos● . tom . 4. in 2 Thess●l . h●mil . 3. h Illud unum ass●verave●im , quod so●a fides p●r se salvum sec●rit Chry. ●o . 3. de Fide & L●ge natu●● . & to . 1. in P●al . 13. i Impium per sol●m ●idem ●usti●icat De●s Hier. to . 9. in ca. 4. ad Rom. k ●x Chrysost●mi Indice edit . Basi●●ae delea●tur — Iusti●●●●tio ex fide sol● ; Scripturae omnibu● volentibus perviae ac ●a●ile● — ●x Ind●ce Hieroa●●●●●lende sunt — Fides sola justi●icat . Imago 〈◊〉 tanti● veneranda . Opera non justi●i 〈◊〉 p. 106 Index libr. Expu●gat . per Q●●rog . Sal●u●i . 1601. & M 〈◊〉 . 1584. l Ind●x 〈◊〉 j●ssu Be●nar●i ●e Sand●●al & R●xas M●●i●i , 1●●2 . & per ●ur●etin ●en●u● 1019. m Ex Indi●e Augustini delent , Non m●r●t● nostra● seu● 〈…〉 De●● coro●●t in nob●● ; ●el●nt● Sancti ●o●norandi imit●ti●●e , non ad●ratio●e ; Ex Athanasij Ind●ce d●●ent , Ad●ra●i solius Dei est . Creatura nulla ad●ran●● . Creatura● creatura no● ado●er . Index Expurgator● quo su●ra . n Ipsissima verba sun Augustini ; C●m Deus coronat merita nostra , nihil aliud coronat quam munera sua . tom . 2. ep . 105. Et Honorandi sunt propter imitationem , non adorandi propter religionem . tom . 1. de vera relig cap. 55. & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Athanas. orat . 3. contra A●rianos . o Cy●il . Al●xandr . to . 5. comment . in Esaiam lib. 1. cap. 1. Fidei autem gratiam , &c. p Ex Divi Cyrilli Commentarijs in Isaiam Laurentio Humphredo int●rp●ete ; ●x T●xtu deleantur illa verba ; Fidei autem gratiam , cùm his qui valdè inquinati sunt , tùm etiam paulùm m●rbo ●ff●ctis , satis ad emundationem valituram esse fidem dicit . Index Expurg . per Quirog . Mad●id● 1584. q The B●ble of Robert Stephens , with the double Text , and Vatablus Annotations . r Deleatur illud , Sculptilia prohibet si●ri . Ind. Expurg . per Quirog . Madrid . 1584. s Deleantur illa Verba . rv●endum soli Deo. t Psal. 39. lit B. ad ma●g deleantur illa verba ; Christus hostia p●o peccatis nostris . u Ex Bibl. Vatabl. Annot . Esai● 8. nu 32. de●●nt ; Qui c●edent in Deum , sal●● 〈◊〉 ; qu● verò non● peribunt . ●ud . Ex●●●● . M●drit . 1612. x Quaeritur , 〈◊〉 ex●ediat sacra volumina in verna●ulas linguas converti● Resp●ndeo , min●m● , qui● 〈◊〉 variae haeresi●● & 〈◊〉 caus● nas●●re●tur . Az●r●us Ins●i● . Mor●l . to . 1. lib. 8 cap 26. p●g . 715. y In H●spania , in Indice librorum prohib . — Regula sexta sic habet . Prohibentur Biblia in vulgari li●gua , cum omnibus suis partibus . Azo●us quo sup●à pag. 714. z Episcop . Eliensis in Respons . ad Apolog. Bellar. cap. 11. pag. 266. a Pag. 148. Ex Michaelis Beutheri Fastis & Ephimerid . ubi agit de Phil. Melanchtone , deleantur illa verba , Vi● in omni literarū genere clarissimus . Mart. Bucerus Theologus , deleatur verbum Theologus , Frideric . Christianiss . Princeps , deleantur illae du● voces , Christianiss . Princeps . Edovardus sextus admirandae indolis adoles●ens ; deleā●ur haec verba , Admirandae indolis adolescens . Ex Beati Rh●nani notis in T●rtulliani librū de Corona Militis , deleantur illa verba , Pelicanus homo mira sanctitatis ac eruditionis . Index Expurgat . per Quirogam Salmuri 1601. & Madriti 1584. b Oecolampadius & Laur. Humf●edus aliqua Cyrilli verterun , in quibus eorum nomen imprimis eradendum est . Possevini apparat . to . 1. verbo Cyrillus . c Ex●ungenda sunt nomina , nisi in libris Catholicorum hae●etici nominentur per ignominiam et contemp●um . Azor. mor. Instit. li. 8. cap. 26. pag. 676. d venerutur●yn●d ●yn●d . ●nd . Sell. 4. Decr. 2. e Revelat. 22.18.19 . f Vaux Catechisme pag. 31 What is the ●econd C●●m●ndement of God ? 〈…〉 t●ke the Name o● GOD in vaine — & pag. 51.52 . ●e subd●vides ●he tenth Cōmandement , and so it is in 〈◊〉 Catechisme g Ossi ●u● B. M●●ae P● . v. P●nt . ●●ssu ●dit . A●twerp . M. D. &c. h Hi●ronym tom . 3. in Prologo Gal●ato in Prae●at . in lib. Reg. i Nemo illam reij cere quovis praetextu audeat . Synod . Trid. Sess. 4. k Quanquam eam quae passim legitur D. Hieronymi Germanam editionem haudquaquàm esse arbitramur . Sanctes Pagnin . praef . suae inte●pret . Biblior . ad Clem. 7. Pont. l B. Mortons Prot. Appeale . lib. 4. c 18. sect . 3. m Et literas quidem potuistis abolere , sed fidem non potuistis au●erre . Ambros . ●om . 2. de Spirit● Sancto . lib. 3. cap. 11. n Tamen in ea●em side ●onspirantes non mi●us 〈◊〉 d●pu●antur pro ●●orsangui●●●ate 〈◊〉 ●e●●ullian . de 〈◊〉 ●dve●s 〈…〉 tom . 2. o p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hegesippus apud Euseb lib. 3. Hist. cap. 32. & lib. 4. cap. 22. edit . Graec. q Iohn 4.22.24 . r Rom. 10.14 The Estate of the Church in the 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , and 11 Age. s Beat Rhenanus lib. 2 rerum Germanic . pag. 98. Bonifacius rogatus an licéret ligneis cal●●ibus sacrificare ; respondit , oli● aureos sacerdotes ligneis vas●ulis litasse nunc vers● vice ligneos aureis ●ti . The Chur●hes state in the 12.13.14.15 . and 16. ●entu●●●s . x Florentinus Episcopus a●firmare solitus [ est ] Antichristum natum esse . Platina in Paschal . 2. y Ergò si qui● animas perdere non ●ormidat , nonnè Antichristus meritò est dicendus ? Math. Paris . in Henr. 3. ad an . 1253. Anno 607. Ann. 788. Ann. 1●75 . Ann. 1517. a 〈◊〉 Deus 〈◊〉 se errare n●● p●sse gloreatur . Ave●t n. Annal. Bo●o●●● l●● 5. p●g● 5●3 . b 〈◊〉 of the sit● 〈…〉 Co●n●ell . 〈◊〉 ●3 . 〈…〉 . c 〈◊〉 Pontisi●is Summ●● 〈◊〉 & 〈…〉 lib. 2. c●p . 2. 〈…〉 B●ll●r . lib. p●imo pag. 1● . c●p . 〈…〉 . ●t pl●●è appareat ex 〈◊〉 p●pe●disse Rom●ni fo●tif●●is Fidei Decre●● san●●●e & sancita mu●●re . Baron . ad ●nn . 373. ●um . 21. d Per Ecclesiam intelligimus pontificem Remanum . Grets . Def. cap. 10. li. 3 de verbo Dei § Iam. p. 1450. & ibid. A● . pag. 1451. non abnuo . Notes for div A16161-e22420 a Euseb Histor ●●cles . lib 3. cap. 33. b Acts 17.34 . c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Dionys. epist. ad Demophil . d Acts 1.13 . & 12.12 . & 20 8. * Andr. Rivet . Critici Sacri . lib. 1. cap 9. rat . 6. e Dionys. Eccles. Hierar●h . cap. 6. f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . C●●ys . Homil 25 in Moral . super cap. 11. ep ad Hebr. g Rhemists Annot. on Acts 17. h Math. 26.27 . & 1 Cor. 11.23 , &c. i 1 Cor. 14.15 , &c. k Exod. 20.4 . Deut. 4.15 . l Esay 63.16 . m Apoc. 19.10 . & 22.8 , 9. n Rom. 8.18 . o Math. 26.26 . p Acts 4.32 . q 1. Cor. 12.27 . r Arti●les of Religion . 6. Ar●i● . s Homily 1. the first part of the exhorta●ion to holy Scripture . t 2 Tim. 3.15 , 16 , 17. u Nec●on traditiones ipsa● tum ad fidem , tum ad mores pertinentes — Part pietatis affectu as reverentià suscipit , & veneratur . Concil . Trid. S●ss . 4 Decret . 1. x Si quis librum Hester , Daniel●s , Baruch , Ecclesiastict , Sapientiae● Iudith , Tobiae , duorum Mac●abaeorum libros pro Canonicis non susceperit , Anathem● sit . Concil . Trid. Sess. 4. y The sixth Arti●le of the names and number of Canonicall Bookes . z Rom 3.2 . a Codicem portat Iudaeus undè credat Christianus ; Librarij nostri facti sunt , quomodo solent servi post Dominos codices ferre . August . in Psal 56. to . 8. b Iosephu● contra ●●pionem . lib. 1. c Luke 24.44 . d Si quis dixerit Ecclesi●m non ●ustis causis adductam ut Latios sub panis ta●tummodo spe●●e cōmunicaret , aut in eo errasse , Anathema sit . Conc. Trid C●n. 2. Sess. ●1 . e Arti●les of England , 30. Art. Articles of Ireland 97. f M●th . 26●27 . g 〈…〉 in Ioan. 〈◊〉 h 1 Cor● 11●28 . 〈…〉 pr●cipit ut h●bitur . Cyp●●an . de Coena Dom. i 1 Cor. 10.21 . & cap. 11.23.26 . k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Di●ny● . A●cop●g . Ec●les . H●erarch . c. 5. — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Ibid. ●ap . 3. l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●gnat . ●p . ad Philadel●h . m In ●atinis ●ed●cibus . non habetur . ●●us Ca●●x o●●ibus d●stri●utus ; sed un●s Calix ●●tius Ecclesiae : est enim communi●●alix qui pro om●ibus ●sse tur Deo Neque multum ●idendum est Grae●●s Codicibus . Bella●m . lib. 4. de Euchar. cap. 26. * Et unus Calix qui pro omnibus nobis distributus est . Bar. Annal. tom . 1. ad ann . Christ. 109. Ita legit locum Ignatij Ep. ad Philadelph . n Mandatum solis Apostolis datum ●uit . Bellarmin . de Euchar. lib. 4. cap. 25. § ●estat . o Post p●nis conse●●●tionem ab●●lutè pon●tu [ h●c ●ac●t● ] p●st ●alic●n verò idem ●●p●titur , sed ●um ●●nditione , Quo 〈…〉 b●beritis , Id. ibid. §. 〈◊〉 . p Concil . T●id . Sess. 13. cap 3. q Si quis dixerit , aut plu●a esse Sacramenta , ●ut pauciora quam septem , Anathema sit . Concil . Trid. Sess. 7. r Art. 25. s Art. of Ireland . Art. 87. t 1 Cor. 10.1 , 2 , 3. & cap. 12. verse 13. u Math. 28.19 . & Luke 22.19 . y Synodas declarat , per consecrationem pa●is & vt●i , conversion●m sieri t●tius substantiae p●n●s in substantiam corporis Christi , & to●i●s ●ub●tan●iae v●ni in substantiam ●anguinis ejus . Concil . ●●id . Sess. 13. cap. 4. z Romanentibus duntaxat spectobus 〈◊〉 & vini . Id. Ibid. Can. 2. Id. ibid. Can. 2. b 1. Cor. 11.26 . c A●ti● of England● 28 Of Ireland●3 ●3 . d Acts 3.11 . e Math. 28.6 , 7. Luke 24.39 . Iohn 20 27. f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Di●nys . Areopag . Eccles. Hierarch . cap. 3. g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid. c●p 3. h Imm● & Dionysius cap 3. Eccles. Hier●rchiae Eucharist●●m vocat Antitypon . B●ll●rm . lib. 2 de Eucha●ist . c. p. 15 §. Sed hoc . i Bishop Morton against the Masse . Booke 2. chap. 1. sect . 4. and cha . 3. sect . 6. k Si enim Sacrament● quandam similitudinem earum ●erum quarum S●cramenta sunt , non ha●erent , omninô Sacramenta non essent : ex hâc autem similitudine plerumque etiam ipsa●um rerum nomina accipiunt . Sicut ergo secundùm quendam modum Sacramentum corporis Christi corpus Christi est . Aug. tom . 2. epist. 23. ad Bonifac . l Vt Baptismus dicitur sepulchrum ; sic , H●c est Corpus meum . August . cap. Faust. lib. 20 cap. 21. Non enim Dominus dubitavit dicere , ●oc est corpus meum , ●um signum daret corporis sui . August tom . 6. contra Adimant . cap. 12. — Figura est ergò praecipiens passioni domini esse communicandum . Id tom . 3 lib 3 de Doctr. Ch●ist cap. 16. m Non ●●gamus in verb● 〈◊〉 ●●pum es●e . Bel 〈…〉 lib. 1 c●p . 11. § R●s●ondeo . n The Lord Ar. Ba●o● num●●●● , 4● touching some mis-allegations . o A discharge of five Impu●●●ions of mis-allegati●ns , ●●lsely c●a●ged upon the ( now● Bishop of Dure●me , by an English B●●on . pag. 133 , &c. ad . num . 42.43 . p Imagines hab●ndas & r●tinendas esse , a●que ●is debitum honorem ac venerati●nem impertiendam . Bull● Pij qu●rti super formâ Iu●am●nti , ad calcem Concil . Trid. & Conc. T●●d . Ses● . 25. q Ar●ic 22. r Exod. 20.5 . Levit. 26.18 . s Deca●ogi verba ipse per seme●ipsum om●ibus simititèr Dominus ●●quutus est ; & ideo sim●●●ter pe●manent a●ud ●os , ●xtension in & aug●entum , sed non dissolut●o●●m a●●●pientta , per ca●●●tem ejus ad●●ntum I●enaeus ●o●●● . Haere● . lib. 4. cap 31. t D●ctor Whites Reply to Iesuit Fish●rs Answer . Fi●st point . §. 3. p. 266. 2 Kings 18●4 . x Sa●●●os un●●um Christs regnante● , venerandos a●que i●vocan●os esse Bulla P●● Q●●●● quò s●p●a . ●t Con● . Trid. Sess. 25. y Iohn 16. ●● . z Iohn ●5 . 16 . Ephes. 3.12 . Hebr. 4.16 . a ●phes . 2.4 . b Rom. 8.34 . H●br . 7.25 . c Non credimus , quia non legimus . Hieron . advers . Helvidium . tom 2. d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ignat. in Epist. ad Philadelph . e Si quis dix●rit , sol● side impium jus●ifica●i , Anathema sit Conc. Trid. Ses●● 6. Can. 9. f Si quis dixe●it justifi●ati hominis opera bona non verè mereti vitam aete●nam● Anathema sit . Idem S●ss . 6. cap. 16. Can. 32. g Artl● . of England 11. and of Ireland 34. h Art. of Ireland● 36. i Rom. 3.28 . — 42 , &c. k Homily of Saluation 2. Part. l 1. Cor. 4.7 m Rom 9.11 . Rom 11.5 , 6. n Rom 3.28 . Rom 4 2 , &c. o Rom. 6. ●3 . p Rom. 8.18 . q Rom. 1 23 , 25. r Rom. 10.13 , 14. s Rom 7.7 . — 8.10 . * Apos●olus Concupiscentiam peccatum voca● ; non licet nobi● autem ita l●q ●● . Possev . in Apparat. verbo Patres . t Rom 4.9 , 17 , 23. x Variam quidem & Om●is generis doctrinam per haec scripta exhibet Apostolus . Thedoret . tom . 2. in argum . Epist. ad Rom. Gen●iano Herveto Interp●et . y Rom. 1 8. z Quan●um ad sub●stantiam Arti●ulorum fidei , non est sactum corum augmentum , sed quantum ad ●xplicationem , quia quaed●m explicitè cognita sunt à poster●oribus , quae à prioribus non cognosceba●tur explicitè . Aquin. ●● . 2 ae . qu. 1. Art. 7. a Imi●etur anim●r●● Religio rationem co●po●●i , q●ae licet annorum pr●●●ss● num●ros suos evolv●●t & explicent , ●alem tam●n quae cra●t perma●ent ; qu●● parvuloru● a●tus 〈◊〉 i●o●um . Vincent 〈◊〉 ● contra Haeres . ca. 29. c Gildas in the life of Aurel. Ambr●sius ; and William Malm●bury apud C●●●b●en . in Belge or S●●me●jet . d Io Hieru●alem primum fund . t● Ecclesi● . to●ius o●b● Ecclesias sem●●●it . Hieron . tom . 2. in Isai cap. 2. [ Ex Sion I●x ex●●●● , & v●●bum Domi●●ex Hieru●●lem ] e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Th●odoret Histor. Eccles l●b 5. cap. ● . Notes for div A16161-e28320 a Eus●b . lib. 4. cap. 15. b Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 2. & 3. c Regula est autem Fidei , ut ●am hinc quid ●redamus prositeamu● , illa scili●et : qu● creditur unum omninò D●um esse , &c. Tertul. de p●aes●●ip●ione advers . haeret . c. 13. d Quià S●●ipturae quidem perfec●●e sunt , quippè ● ve●bo D●i & spi●itu ejus dic●ae . ●en . lib. 2. c. 47. Solis Scripturarum praesidijs pugnat a●ve●sus ●atervam . Here●ic●rum . Erasm p●aefat . in Iren f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Eus●b . lib. 4. cap. 26. g Multi vete●um ut Melito , aperte s●q●●ti sunt Hebreos● non G●ae●os . Bell●r● de ve●b . Dei lib. 1. cap. 20 § Ad alter in . h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Iust. Ap●log . ● . in fine p 162. i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In●●● . Id. ibid. k Respondeo , illa verba Iustini , ubi commemoratur Christi praceptum , non pertinent ad Communionem , sed ad consecration●m . Bell●rm . lib. 4 de Euchar. cap. 26. §. Respondeo . Stromata . l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Clem. Alexandr . Stromat . lib. 1. pag. 94. m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Idem Paedagog . lib. 2. cap. 2. pag. 35. n Iustin. Apol secund● . o Iustin. Apolog. 2. p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●u●●in . Apolog . 2 in sin q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 C●m . Al●●andr . Paedagog lib. 2. cap. 2. pag 38. Quomodo autem justè Dominus , si alterius Patris existit , hu●us ●onditionis quae est secundum nos , accipi●ns pa●em , suum corpus esse consit●batur . I●en . lib 4. c p 57● s Et cali●em similtèr , qui est ●x ea c●●atur● , quae est se●undùm nos , suum sanguinem con●●ss●s est . Id. ibid. lib● 4. cap 32. t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ● Clement . Alexan. Protrepti● . ad Gent. pag 24. u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Pae●dag . lib. 3. cap 2. p●g 58. x 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. P●otreptic . pag. ●1 . y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. in Protreptic . oratione Adhortat ad Gentes . pag. 23. — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ibid . pag. 20. z Imagines quasdam depictas , quasdam de reliqu● Materi● fabricatas habent , dicentes formam Christi factam ● Pilato , e● has coronant . Iren. lib. 1. cap. 24. a Alexander Imperator Christo templum facere voluit , eumque inter Deos recipere : quod & Adrianus cogitasse fertur , qui templa in omnibus civitatibu●●ine simulachris jusserat fieri , quae hodie idcirco quia non habent numina , dicuntur Ad●iani● quae ille ad hoc parasse dicebatur , sed prohibitus est ab ijs qui consulentes sacra , repererāt omnes Christianos futuros si id optatò eveniss●t , & templa reliqua deserenda . Lamprid. in Alexandro . b Historiam istam ad Tiberium potius referendā puto , quam Adrianum . Hadrianum autem templa sieri suo nomini mand●sse , quae eo morte praerepto imperfecta postea & fine simulachris mansere ; unde factum ut in animum inducerent multi non ●ibi sed Christo templa ista extruxisse Adrianum , quibus assentitur Lampridius ; ut qui norat , quod ignorare tum poterat nemo , & Iudaeos o●im in Hierosolomytanâ aede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Deum co●uisse , & suis etiam temporibus Christianorum templa ejusmodi esse , qualia adhuc memorià suâ B. Augustinu● cum alibi prodit fuisse , tum in Psalmi 103. enarratione . Isaac . Causabon . in notis in hunc locum Lamp●id . Hoc enim venerantu , quod ipsi ex auro argentoque●ec●runt , sed enim & nos plaraque inst●umenta & vasa ex hujus modi materi ● vel metallo habemus in usum celebrando●um Sacramentorum Et sunt pro●●cto etiam illa ins●rumenta vel vosa , q●●d aliu● quàm opera manuum hominum ? ve●untamen nunquid or habent , & non loquentur ? Nunquid its supplicamus quia per ea supplicamus Deo ? plus val●nt s●melachra ad curvandam infael●●m animam quod os hubent , oculos , aures ; quàm id corrigendam , quod non loquentur , non videhunt , non audient . Aug. in Psal. 113. conc . 2. d Ecclesia per u●iversam mundum — Nec invocationibus Angeli●●● fac●●● a'●quid , nec incantationibus , n●● aliquâ pravâ curiosirate● sed mundè , & 〈◊〉 & m●●i●●estè orationes di●igentes ad Dominum qui omnia facit , & nomen Domini nos●●● 〈◊〉 Christi [ ●nvo●ant , virtu●t●s ] secundum utilitates b●●onum sed non a● se●ducti●ne● per●e●it . ●●n . ●● 2. c●p●●7 . 〈◊〉 Fe●● de● tius . e ●Nec invo●ationibus Ang●l●●● ] mal●gnorum vid●●●●●●p●●tuum . ●ev . ●d . ● . t●s in locum Ir●n●ei . f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Euseb. Hist. lib. 4. cap. 15. g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Eccle. Smy●n , apud Euseb. l. 4. hist. cap. 15 pag. 39. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with religious worship . h An Answer to the Iesuits Challenge . Of payer to Saints . pag. 426. i Nunquam Christum relinquere possumu● Cristiani , neque alterì cuiquam precem orat●onis impendere . Ex Passionario MS. vij . Kalend. Febr. in Bibliotheea Ecclesiae Sarisburiensis , & D● Robert● Cottoni . k V●i virgini● Evae virgo Maria ●ie●e● Advoc●●a . I●en . lib. 5. c. 16. edit Gallasij c. 19. edit . Fevard . l Bellar. l. 1. de Sanct. Beat. c. 19. quid clar●us ? m Sicut Eva , & fibi et universo generi humano causa facta est mortis ; sic & Maria , e●●●●i , & universo generi humano causa facta est salutis . Iren. lib. 3. cap. 33. [ Causa salutis ] causa pro organo exteriore accipitur . N●col . Gallas . in loc . n Et ●●●è quid allud est , quam exclusiva , quod Ire●au● habet . lib. 4. c. 37.38 . Non aliter servar● homines ab antiquà Se●pentis plag●● nisi credant in cum , &c Chemnit . loc . Theolog . de Iustif. 2. part p. 773. o Mi●i nondum satis liquet Graece ne scripserit , an Latine , etiamsi magis arbi●●or L●tine scripsisse . E●●●in● pr●fat . in Iren. Phrasis ejus [ ●●en●e● ] Graecismum redolet . Bellarm . de S●riptor Eccles. p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Euseb. lib. 4. cap. 15. q Euseb. hist lib. 5 ca. ●1 . 22 , 23. r V● omnes Eccle●ia A●●● ab eodem V●ctore Romano ●xcommunicat●●ueri●● . Bell●● . de verbo Dei lib● 3● cap. 6. § Secundo . s Q●●d Vic●●● sententiā s●●●m m●●●ve●it , nusquam le●im●● Bellarm. lib● 2. de P. 〈◊〉 c 19. §● at obijcit . t Euseb. cap. 23. u Euseb. cap. 22. x Qu●niam ergò Papa vide●at illam diver●itatem de Paschate adferre secum Haere●in . Bellar. de Rom. Pont. lib. 2. cap. 19. S. Quoniam . y Haec Epistola communiter habetur inter leges Divi Edwardi . Antiquitat . Britan. pag. 5. in Margine . z Habetis penes vos in regno vtramque paginam , c●● illis Dei gratia per Concilium regni vestri sumere po●estis legem , vicarius verò Dei ●●●is in regno . Antiquitat . Britan. p●g . 5. a Bellarminus lib. 2. de Rom. Pont. ca. 19. probare nititur primatum Papae● ex ferendi● legibus , & censuris . b Dicetas , Deane of London , a Manuscript in the Kings Library ad ann . 178. alledged by M. S●●eds History of Great Br●tain , Book 6. cap. 9. sect . 18. c Polychronic . lib. 4. cap. 16. pag. 163. d Conv●rsi●n of England , 1 Part. Ch●p . 1. num . 25. e Ioseph ab Arimathea anno ab I●carnatione 63. cum d●cem socijs i● Britannia fid●m Christi praedicab●nt . Nova Legenda Angliae pag. 187. column● 4. f Lucius Brittaunorum Rex literas per Elvanum & Medvinum viros rerū divinarum peritos ad cum mitte●at [ Eleutherium ] Richardus Vitus Basingstoochiensis . Histor. lib. 5. pag. 1. Notes for div A16161-e32160 a Ad notarium dicere consuevit , Da Magistrum , Tertullianum videlicet designans . Hieron . in Catal. Scriptor . Eccles. b Euseb. lib. ● . cap. 16. c Scripturas memoritèr tenuit . Hier. ad Pammach . & Ocean . Novu● et vetus Testamentum v●lut alter Esdras memor●tèr noverat . Tri●hem . de scriptor . Eccles. d Septem Notarijs potuit dictare . Trithem . Ib. e Vincent . Lirinens . de H●res . cap. 23. f Epiphanius cōtr● H●resin 64. lib. 2. tom . 1. in ●dit . L●● . g Amore castitati● , ut mulier●bu● securè auderet pradicare , se castrari fecit . Trithem de Scriptor . Ecclesiast . h Non solum do●●●● sed etiam do●ibilis . August . l. 4. de Baptis . cap. 5. i Satis f●cilimè o●tendit se correctu●um fuisse sententiam suam , si quis e● demonstraret . Id. Ibid. lib. 2. cap 4. k Prop●ere● non vidit aliquid , ut per ●um aliud super eminent●us videre●ur . Id. Ibid. lib. 1. cap. 18. l An autem de aliquâ subjacenti materiâ f●cta si●t omnia , ●usquam adhuc legi ; Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis Officina . Si non est scriptum , tim●a● vae illud adijci●●tibus aut de●rahentibus des●inatum . Tertul. advers . Hermog . cap. 22. m Adoro Scripturae pi●n●tudin●m . Id. Ibid. n In quibus liceat omne verbum quod ad D●um pe●tinet r●quiri et discuti ; atque ex ip●is om●em rerum scientiam c●pi . Si qu●d ●●tem super●uerit quod non divina Scriptura decernat● nullam aliam de bere terti●m scripturam ad authoritatem scientiae suscipi . Orig. in Levit. Homil . 5. tom . 1. o Euseb. lib. 6 Histo● . cap● 24. p Caro corpore et sanguine Christi ●escitur , ut & anim● de Deo saginetur . Tertul de Resurrect . cap. 8. q De cujus manu d●●iderabit ? de cujus po●ulo participabit ? Ter●ul . lib. ● . ad V●orem cap. 6. r Populus in usu habet sanguinem bibere . Origen . hom . 16. in Num. s Respondeo , habet in usu , non in precepto Bellar. de Euchar. lib. 4 cap. 26. t Quomodo a● Martyrij poculum idone●s facimus si non eos pri●s ad bibendum in Ecclesi● pocu ū Domini jure cōmunicationis admittimus ? Cyprian . epist. 54. ●om . 1. — lib. 1. epist. 2. in alijs edit . u In calice Domini sanctificando , & plebi ministrando , non hoc faciunt , quod Iesus Christus sacrificij hu●us auctor et doctor , 〈◊〉 et do●uit . Id. Epist. 63. — lib. 2. ep . 3. x Nec alibi conjunctos ad Sacramentum Baptismatis , & Eucharistiae admittens . Tertul. advers . Marcion . lib. 4. cap. 34. & de Co●onâ Militis . cap 3. y Censurae Inquisitionis Hispanicae in B. Rhenani Aannotationes ad Tertullian . Prout edita sunt in ●udice Libror . Expurgator . jussu Quiroga . Madriti 1584. ex libro 4. advers . Marcion . Deleantur illa verba , [ Baptismus & Eucharistia duo Sacramenta Primitivae ecclesiae . ] z Tertulliani opera cum c●stigat . Fr. Iunij in Bibliop . Commel●●●●●o . 1609. a Ac ●ptum panem & distributum discipulis , corpus suum illum fecit , hoc est corpus meum dicendo , id est , Figura corporis mei : figura autem non fuisset , nisi veritatis esset corpus : c●terum vacua res , quod est phantasma , figuram capere non posset . Tertul . advers . Marcion . lib 4. cap. 40. b Rhemists Annot. on Math. 26. chap. sect . 9. c Master Fisher in D. White● Reply 6 point . pa. 400.401 . d 〈…〉 Deus in Evangelio reve●avi● , panem corpus suū appellans . Tertul . con . Marcion . l 3. c. 19. Panem quo corpus suum repraesentat . Ibid. l. 1. c. 14. Et contra Iudaeos . cap. 10. e [ Venite mittamus lignum in ●●nem ejus . Ierem. 11. ] Vtique in corpus ; sic enim De●s in Ev●ngelio , panem corpus suum appellan●● ut & hin●●am eum intellig●● corpori● sui figuram p●ni dedisse , cujus retr● co●poris in panem Prophetes figuravit . Tertul. l. 3. advers . Marcion . c. 19. f Greg. de Valent. in Sum. Aquin. tom . 4 disp . 6. de praes●nti● Ch●isti in Euchar. pag. 968. Paris . 1609. g Vinum fuit , quod sanguinem suum dix●t . h D●dit Dominus noster in mens● proprijs manibus panem & vinum ; in cruce verò manibus militum corpus tradidit vulner●●dum . — Vt significant●● & significata eisdem vocabuli● consecre●tur . Cypr. lib. de V●ctione num . 7. i Panis iste non e●●igie , sed naturâ mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est caro . Cypr. de coena . Dom. nu . 6. k Omnipotentia non requiritur , ad faciendum ut res aliquid significet . Bel. lib. 2. de Euch c. 14. l Bellar de scriptor . Eccles . & lib. 2 de Euch●r . cap. 9. § extet . Et de Confirmat . lib. 2. cap. 6. m Doctor Iames of the Bast●rdie of Fathers . Part. 1. pag. 12. n Et sicut in person● Christi , humanitas videbatur , & la●ebat divinitas ; it● Sacramento visibili , ineffabiliter divina se insudit essentia . Cypr. de coena Dom. num . 6. o Ille cibus quì sanc●i●icatur per verbum Dei , perque objecrationem , juxta id quod habet materiale , in ventrem abit , & in se●essum ●ij citur ; caeterùm juxta precationem qu● illi a●cessit pro port●o●e ●idei fit ut●lis : nec materia panis , sed super illum dictus sermo est , qui prodest non indignè domino comeden●i illum : & haec quidem de Typico Symbolicoque corpore . Origen . in Math. cap. 15. p Bellar. lib. 2 de Euc●ar . cap. 8. §. ad tertium . q Ego , ut liberè pronun●em sen●entiam meam su●picor hunc locum suisse a● hereticis depravatum . Sixt. Sen. Biblioth● Sanct. lib. 6. Annot 66. r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Origen . contr . Celsum . li. 7. pag. 3●6 . s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid. pag. 387. t Cur nullas aras habent , te●pl● nulla , nulla nota simula●hr● ? Min. Felix in Octavio . pag. 27. u Quod enim simulach●um Deo singam , ●ùm si recte existimes , sit Dei homo ipse simulachrum . Id. ibid. pag. 104. x Cruces c●iam n●● colimus , n●● optamus . Id. ibid. pag. 97. y Ipsae imagines sacrae , quibus vaniss●●● homines servlunt , omni sensu c●●●ent , quoniam terra sunt : quis autem non intelligat , nesas esse rectum animal curvari , ut ad ret t●●ram ? quae id●irco pedibus nostris ●ubjecta est , ut cal●and● nobis , non adoranda ●it . L●ctan● Divinar . Iustit . li. 2. cap. 18. z Quare non est dubium , quin Religio nulla sit , ubi●u●que simulachrum est . Id. ibid. cap 19. a Idolum t●m sieri qu●m coli Deus prohibet . Tertul. de Idolatr● c●p . 4. & 5. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Origen lib. 8. cont . Celsum . pag. 432. c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid. pag. 406. d M. Fishers Rejoynder to D. Whites Reply . e O bea●e Iob ora pro nobis miseris . Orig. l 2. in Iob f Quis dubitat quod sanctiqueque orationibus nos ●●vent . Orig. in cap. 31. num . g Bellar. de Scriptor . Eccles in Origen . h Si dix●ris sanctos pro nobis orare non erit inconveniens . Orig. in Cant. cap 2. i Ego fic arbitror , quod om●es illi qui do●mie●uat ante no● P●tres , pugnent nub●seum , & adj●●e●t nos oratio●ib●s sui● . Origen . in Ios. Homil 16. k ●●m 〈◊〉 si etiam extrà corpus positi sancti , agunt aliqu●● , & laborant pro nobis , ha●●●atur hoc quoque inter ●●●ulta Dei , nec ●ha● 〈◊〉 committenda m● st●ria . I● . lib 2 in epist. ad Rom cap 2. l Si quis nostr●m prier d●vin● dignationis ce●eritate pracesseri● , p●rseveret ●pud cum nustra dilectio pro fratribus & sororibus ●pud m●●ericord●●m Patris non ce●●et oratio Cypr. lib. 1. epist. 1. vel ( ut in alij● edit . ) epist. 57. ad Cornel. & de Discipl . & ha●itu . virg . m Alitèr orare quàm Christus do●uit , non ignorantia sola est , sed & culpa . Cypr. de Orat. Dom. n Haec ab alio orare non poss●m quàm à quo me sci● consecuturum , quoniam & ipse est qui solus praestat , et ego sum cui impetrare debetur , famulus e●us , qui eum solùm observo . Tertul. in Apologet. cap. 30. o Dicit sufficere solius Fidei Iustificationem . Orig. lib. 3. in epist. ad Rom. c. 3. p Vix mihi suadeo , quòd possit ullū opus esse , quod●x debito remunerationē Dei depos●at ; cùm c●iam hoc ipsum , quòd agere aliquid possumus , vel cogitare , vel proloqui , ipsius d●no● & largitate ●aciamus . Orig. lib. 4. in epist. ad Rom. c. 4. q Bellar● lib. de purgat . cap. 4. §. tertio . r Hoc etiam Paraclet commendavit . Tertul. de Animâ . cap ult . s Non desue●unt , qui purga●orium adeò proba●riot , ut nullas poenas nis● pu●gato●●as post ha●c vit● agnoverin● , it a O●●genes sensit , qui & Daemonibus t●ndem salutem polli●●tur . Bellar. ibid. c 2. § Por●● . t Cyprian lib 3 ●p● . 15. Tertulli●n de Pudicit●● cap 22. u 〈…〉 Fathers . 〈…〉 M. Be●el in his 〈◊〉 to M. Wadsworth p●g . 101. B. Bilson . Di●ference of sub●●ction and reb●llion . 〈◊〉 part pag. 89. x Hoc erant ut●que & 〈◊〉 Ap●●●oli , quod ●uit 〈◊〉 , par● consortio 〈◊〉 & hon●ris & po 〈…〉 — sed exordium ab 〈…〉 . Cypr. de 〈◊〉 Eccl●siae . N●m ●um s●●tutum sit 〈…〉 , & ●q●ū sit pa●iter a● jus●um , ut 〈…〉 causa illic 〈◊〉 ubi est crim●n 〈…〉 non 〈…〉 agere illic 〈◊〉 ●uam , ubi & 〈…〉 sui 〈◊〉 p●s●unt ; ●●si si pau●is d●speratis & 〈◊〉 mino● vi●●tur ●sse 〈◊〉 ●pi●●oporum in 〈◊〉 constitutorum● qui 〈◊〉 de illi● judicav●runt . C●p●ian lib 1 e●ist . 3. in 〈…〉 ●p●st . 55. z Cyprianus semper est habitus in nume●o C●t●olic●rum . B●lla●min . lib. 2. de Concil cap 5 § Altera a Appellatio e●t c●r●iss●mum A●gumētum Princip●tus . Bellarm. lib. 2. de Rom Pont. cap. 21. b Math. Westmon . ad annum 303. c Math. Westmon . Ibid. d Master Speeds Historie lib. 6. cap. 9. sect . 19. e Horae B. virginis Mar●● ad Sarisburtensis ●cclesiae ritum ●um Orationibus & Indulgentijs Paris . 1529. f Ioannes Papa 12. concessit omnibus ●icenti●us orationem sequentem transe●●d● per C●emeterium tot ann●●um Indulgenti●s , quot fue●unt ibi corpora inhumata ● cons●itutione ipsius Coemeterij . Id. quò supra . Notes for div A16161-e37480 a Bucolceri Chronolog . hoc tempore fulserunt in Ecclesia Dei clarissima lumina . ad Ann. 365. b Dan Tossanus in Synopsi de Legendis Patribus . cap. 3. c Percuti●●tibus Alamas ●ffi●itur . Nazianzen . orat . 31. in laudem Athanasij . d P●ssid . de vità Augustini . cap. 27. tom . 1. Non sic vixi , ut me pudeat inter vos vivere , nec mori ●imeo qu●a bonum habemus Dominum Et Buchol●er . in Chronol . ad Ann. 398. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Athan. orat 1. cont . Gent. tom . 1. sufficiunt per se , vertit Petr. Nann●us . f L●quitur non de omnibus d●gm●●●bus , sed sol●m ●e duobus . B●ll●r de verbo Dei non script● . li. 4. cap. 11. §. Profert . g Verè te D. Constanti Imperator admiror , ●idem tantùm 〈◊〉 lù●● ea quae scripta sunt deside antem . Hilar. de ●rinit . lib. 2. h Su●●●●●ebat quul● crede●tibus Dei se●m●● quid enim in eolem Sacramento saluris hum●n●e non contin●tu● ? aut quid sit quod reliquum est , aut obs●rii ? pl●na sunt omnia ut à ple●● & persecto ●acta . Id. ibid. lib. 2. i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . de side , Inter Ascetica , ●ive exercitamenta Monach. tom . 2. k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg Nyssen . de Animâ & Resu●rect . to . 2. edit . Gr. & Lat. pag. 639. l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. tom . 2. deijs qui adeunt Hierosol . m Quae autem opor●eat legi , & in authoritatem recipi haec sunt ; Gen●sis &c Not mentioning the Controversed Bookes . Con●il . Laod. Can. 59. Caranz . in Sum. Concil . n In viginti duos libros , Lex Testamenti ve●●●is deputet●r , u● cum literarum numero conveni●ent . Hil. in Prolog . in Psalm . explanat . o Praeter i●●os au●em ●unt ad●uc alij e●u●dem veteris Instrumenti Libri , qui non sunt Canonici , qui Catechumenis ta●tum legantur , Sapientia Sal●m●nis , &c. Athanas. in Synopsi . o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Epipha● . in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . de pond . & mens q Al●j ●●bri sunt qui ●●n sunt Canonic● , sed E●clesiastici à maso●ib●s appellati sunt , ut Sapientia Salomonis● & alia Sap. quae d●citur filij Syrach , ejusdem ord●n●● est Liber T●bi● , & Iud●th & Maccab eorum Libri — quae omnia legi quidem in Ecclesijs volue●unt , non t●men pro●erri ad authoritatem ex his Fidei con●●rm●nd●m . Ru●●in . sive Cyp●●an . in explic . Symboli . pag. 189 par . 1580. r Ru●●inus ( pa●e Le●tor●●●ictum sit ) ●a●rum trad●ti●n●s igno●avit Canus Loc. 〈◊〉 l 2. c. 11. s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg N●z . in edit . G●ae●o-lat to . 2. num 33● t S●i●bat rem non fu●sse a 〈◊〉 a G●●●rali Con●il●o d●s●●●tam . Bel●●r . de verbo Dei. li. 1 cap. 10. u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Gr. Nazianz. orat . 11. in laud. Gorgon . — ac ●icubi quidpiam signorum preciosi corporis aut sanguinla manus condiderat . Interprete Iac. Billio . tom . 2. orat 35 edit . Lat. x 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg. Nazian . orat . 40. in sanctum Baptism . tom . 1. y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hie enim usus est C●lici● & p●aeter cum alius nullus ; eoque solo vos legitimo ritu propinatis populo . Athan. Apolog. 2. contra Arrianos . to . 2. p●g . 385. Petro Nannio Interprete . z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret● hist. eccles . lib 5. cap. 18. — & Ambros. in orat . ad Theodos . d Ambros. de Sacramentis● tom 4. & de ijs qui Mysterijs initian●●r . b Similitudinem p●etiosi sanguinis bibis . Ambr. de Sacram. lib. 4. cap. 4. c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg. Nazian . Apolog . orat . 1. tom . 1 quomodo illud magno●um mysteriorum Antitypum ipsi offerre a●derem ? d Cyril . Hierosol . 5. Cate●he● . Mystag . e Rhemists Annot. on Luke 22. Sect. 7 on Heb. 1. sect . 1 & the Rejoynder to D. Whites Reply the 6. point . f Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini , ut inciperent esse quae non erant quantò magis operator●us est , ut sint quae ●rant , & to aliud commut●ntur . Ambr. de sacram . l 4 ca. 4. g Ante benedictionem alta species nominatur post consecrationem corpus significatur . Ambr. lib. de ijs qui mysterijs initian●●r . h Ambr. de ijs qui myster . initiantur . cap 9. i Quia benedictione etiam Natura ipsa mutatur . Id. ibid. k Non minus est novas rebu● dare , quam mutare natura● . Ambr loco citat . l Non agnosco usum naturae , ubi est excellentia gratiae . Ambros de ijs qui myst . 〈◊〉 cap. 9. Quid v●listi ? [ ●q●as ●ti que ] sed non solas . Id. ibid. cap. 3. m Post●aquàm consecratus es , 〈◊〉 creatura esse coepisti . Serm● Christi ●reaturam omnem muta●e consueverit , & mutat quando vult instituta natur● . Idem de Sacram lib. 4. c●p . 4. n Spirit●s Sanct● operatione 〈…〉 . ●y●il . Alexandr . 〈◊〉 Ioan li. ● cap. 4● . ●om . 1. Ge●rg . Tra● 〈…〉 . o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg. N●zi●n 〈…〉 pag. 643 tom . 1 Paris . 1609. p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Macar . Aegypt . Homil. 27 q Bellar. de Euchar. li. 2. c. 15. § Sed haec . r Offerendum esse in Ecclesi● panem & vinum exemplar exhibens carnem ipsius & sanguinem● sumentesque de pane visibili * spiritaliter carnem domini edere . Macar . homil . 27. in Bib. S. Patr. tom . 2. edit . 2. pag. 398. per Marg. de la Bigne . Par. 1589. * spiritaliter , id est , non visibili modo , & eo quo editur alia caro● sed spiritali & indivisibili . in margine . s Placuit , pic●uras in ecclesia esse non debere ; ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus depingatur . Concil . Eliber . cap. 36. t Illa [ Lex ] impiè à Concilio Elibertino lata est de tollendis Imaginibꝰ . Melch. Canus loc . theol l. 5. c 4. u Non vult se Deus in lapidibus coli . Ambr. in ep . 31. ad Valent. Imp. lib. 5. tom . 3. x Quae Ecclesia i●anes Ideas , & vanas nescit simulachrorum figuras , sed veram novit Trinitatia substantiam . Id. de fug● saeculi . cap. 5. tom . 1. y Epiphan . edit . Lat. in fine operum . z Epist. Epiphanij ad Ioan. Hierosol . in tom . secundo oper . Hieronymi . a Inveni ibi velum pen●●n● in sori●●s ejus●●m eccl●si● tinctum atque depi●tan● . & habens imaginem quasi Christi vel Sancti cujusd●m , non enim satis memini , cu●as imago suerit ; cùm ergè hoc vidissem , in Ecclesia Christi contra out●rit●●ē Scripturarum hominis pend●●e Im●ginem , sci●●illud — Epiphan . quò ●up●a . b Dein●●ps p●aecip●re in Eccl●si● C●risti is●i● ismo●ivel● quae contrà R●ligionem nostram veniu●t non appendi . Id. Ibid. c ●●ono● astarum poti●●●●gmentum quam Epip●anij ge●●a●um scriptum Baron . A●●●l . tom . 4. ad ann . 392 nu . 59. * An● . 〈◊〉 Criti●i Sacri . lib. 3. cap. 29. d Deo● inquitis per simul achia veneramur . Arnob . contra Gent. lib. 6. sect . 10. e Nec Simulachrū nec Daemonium colo , sed per ●ffigiem corporalem ejus rei signum intu●●r , quam colere debeo . August . in Psal. 113. concion● secunda . f Doctor Vshers Sermon the 18. of Febr. ann . 1620. g Colloss . 2.18 . h ●oid .. vers . 23. i Ill● ergo hoc consul●bant utique humilita●e utentes , di●entes universorum De●m , nec cerni nec ad cum perveniri poss● ; & opo●tere p●r Angelos divinam sibi benevolentia● concili . re . Theodoret in Coloss. cap. 2. to . 2. Gentiano Herveto interprete . k Oratoria sancti Michaeli● . Theod quò suprà . l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Concil . Laodice● can . 35 In edit . T●lianâ● p. 841. m Hanc e●iam l●gem sequens , Laodicena Synodus , & volens veteri illi morbo mederi , Lege cavit ne precarentur A●gelos , & ne reli●qu●r●nt Dominum nostrum Iesum Christ●● . Theod. in 3. cap. ad Col. n Dicentes , ●uisse ●ege● p●r eos dat●m , id est , per Angelos Theod. in 2. c●p . Coloss. o Conciliu● non damn●r qu●mlibe● v●n●r●tionem Angelorum , sed eam quae Deo prop●●● es● . B●llar . de sanct . Beat lib. 1. c. 20. § Hie●on●m● . p Mihi magis pl●cet ●xpositio Baronij , q●ia it hoc Canone 〈◊〉 ac religiosam venerationē 〈◊〉 Deorum , eo●ū nimirum quos Gentiles Idololat●ae venerab●ntur , Christ●●nis interdictā es●e . B●● . in Synod Laodic p. 294. ●ol . 2● . q Ex his vide●s ( quod necessario dicendum est ) Th●oderetum haud satis feliciter ( e●us pace sit dictum ) assecutum esse Paul● verborum sensum . Baron Annal. tom . 1. ann . ●0 . sect . 20. r Non oportet ad angulos cong●egationes ●acere . ●aranza in summâ Concilior . s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Athanas. orat . 4. contr . Arri●n . t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg. Nyssen . cont . Eunom . tom● 2. orat . 4. pag. 146. u Anton. Meliss . lib 2. Serm. 1. x Deleatur dicti● , ●●lum modo . Ind. 〈◊〉 . p●● Quirog . Madr. ann . 158● y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . A●●an . to . 1. orat . 3. contr . Arrianos . z Ex Athanasij Indi●● d●lean●ur . Adorari soliu● Dei est , Creatura creaturam non adorat . Ind ●xpurg . Madr. 1612. E● per Tu●re●●n . Genev● . 1619. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Epiphan . in hae●esi Collyrid . haer 79 p 1065. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Ibid pag. 10●4 . 1065 c Q●id enim t●m 〈◊〉 C●r●stum quam Advocatum apud D●●n● Pat●em ad●●are popul●rum ? Ambr tom . 4 in Psal. 39. d Sed tamen tu solus Domine invocandus 〈◊〉 Ambros. tom 3. de 〈◊〉 Theodsij Am●ros . tom . 5. in Rom cap. 1. f So e●t tam●● pu●o●em p●ssi n●g●●c●i Dei , 〈◊〉 u●i ●x●us●tione , dicentes p●rist●s pos●e ire ad Deum● si●ut per ●●mites per●e●atural Regē Id ibid. g Age , nu●qui● t●m demens est aliqui● , aut salutis suae imm●m●r , ut honorisicentiam Regis vindicet C●mit● — nam & ideò ad Regem per Tribunos aut Comites itur , quia homo u●ique est Rex , & nes●it quib●s debeat Rempublicam credere . Ad Deum autem ( quē utique nihil latet , omnium enim me●ita no●it ) promerend●m suffragatore non opus est , sed mente devot● . ubicunque talis locutus suerit ei , respondebit illi . Id. ibid h Matheus Huttonus , ●ui v●r nominatus in paucis . ve●sare patr●s dicitur . Campian . Rat. 5. i Commentaria in Epistolas S. Paull à multis non creduntur Amb●●sij , nec sine causà . Bellar. de Scriptor . Eccles. ad ann . 374. k R●bertus Cocus in censu●a Scripto●um Vet. p. 133. l Bea●us Ambrosi●s in cap 3. prime ad ●imoth . inqui● ; D●mus ●ius Ec●l●si● di●itur , cujus ●odi● Rector e●t Damasus . Bellarm de R●m . Pont. l. 2 c 16 §. Certius ● . Amb●os . m B. And●ews Answer to Cardinall Perrons Reply . Pag. 44.45 . n Suffragia de S. Antonio . Ora pro nobis Bea●● Pa●er Antoni . Hor● B● M●r. o Id Ibid. pag 43. p Intelligi●●● 〈…〉 Dei , q●a●i 〈◊〉 , D●us 〈◊〉 eg●r interpretibus , ●um . ps● p●● se om●●a vid●●● , & int●llig●● ; tam●n●x 〈…〉 lepus est suff● 〈…〉 . Bel. li. 1 d● Sa●●● Be●● . cap. ●0 . §. Ad● q Id. ibid. p 44. r Dico● cum agere contrá ●thnicos , qui As●●●tum cursus col●bant , Bellar . de Sanct. Beatit . li. 1. cap. 20. §. ad ●ocum Ambr●si● . s Quintum Arg●m●ntum ex P●t●b●s , Athanas. serm 3. c. Ar●ian● docet neq●e Angelos , neque homin●s sanct●s ad natione colend●s esse . Epiphan . in haer . Coll● rid sepius r●petit , Mari●m non ●sse adoran lam , sed solum Deum . Ambros. in cap. 1. ad Rom. reprehendit e●s qui adorant c●nservos . Bell●r . de Sanct. Beat● l. 1. c● 11. §. Quintum . t I. F. Rejoynder to D. Whites Reply , the 2 and 3 poynt . u Ad ultimum ex Patribus ●●ico co● loqui con●r●● erro●es Ge●ti●um , qui ●x h●miribus 〈…〉 ●sserebant . 〈◊〉 l. 1 de 〈…〉 §. ad ultimū collat cum ●ine c. 11 x An answer to a Ch●llenge m●de by a Iesuite in Ireland . S. Of prayer to Sain●s . pag ●76 y Ioannes Rainaldus de Idololatria . Rom Eccl. lib. 1. cap. 1. num 13. ex Cicerone in oratione pro Caelio . z Hebrai●um verbum , Ghabad , quod 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 redditur apud Spetuaginta , Deut. 6.13 . in loco quem Christus ●itat , Mat● . 4.10 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : reddite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1 Sam. 4. vbi scriptum est in laud●m Israelitarum , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . * They pray dir●ctly , absolutely , and fin●lly to Sain●s , to give such and such gif●s & graces themselves ; and divers instances are given in this kinde by Bishop Andrews in his Answer to Card Pe●r●n's Reply . P●g 58.59 . &c. a O●fic . B. Mar. pij v. jussu edit . and the office of the Blessed Virgin according to the ●ef●rmed Latine a● S. Omers . 1621. b Breviar . Roman . Sabbat . infrà Hebdom . 4. Quadrages . c Bellar. l. 1. de Sanct. Beatit . cap. 19. d Ad Cardinalis Bellarmini Apolog●●m Respons . cap 1 pag. 40 &c. His Answer to the 20. Chap●er of Cardinall Perron's Reply . e Master Rich : Montague now Bishop of Chichester his Treati●e of Invoc●t●on o● Saints . Viginem Mariam rog●●● , u● p●r●●li●ant● Vng●●● 〈…〉 . Gregor . Nazianz●n Or●t . in Cyprian . g Tam foedo errore prolapsum esse Billius in not . ad locum . F●●trum tuorū Martyrum ●oge chorum , & 〈◊〉 omnibus una depre●are . Greg Nyssen . ●●at . in S. Theodor. i Nazianzen . in orat . in Atha●as . k Vale ò Paula , & cult●ris tu● vl●imam ●ene●tutem orati●nibus ●uva . Hieron . in Epitaph . Paulae . l Nihil aliud di●o , nisi mor●●●ëtico ●usiss P●udentium . Bellar lib 2. de Pu●gat . cap. 18. §. Ad. m Obsecrandi sunt Angeli , Martyres , speculatores vitae , actuumque nostrorum . Ambros. lib. de Viluis . n Bishop Andrews Answer to Ca●dinall Perron's R●ply , prooves this out of Baronius in the l●●e o● Saint Ambrose . o Qui proprio sanguine , etiam si quae habuerunt , peccata laverunt . Amb● . de Vid. ●oco citato . p Apocal. 1.5 . q Apoc. 7.14 . & 1 Iohn 1. vers . 7. r Quorum vide●ur n●bis quoddam corporis pignore patrocinium v●n●icare . Ambr. loc . citato● s Ad Deum autem promerendum , Suff●agatore non opus est , sed mente devotà . Ambros. in Rom. cap. 1. Tom. 5. t Sed tamen tu solu● Domine invocandu● es . Ambr. de obitu Theodosij . tom . 3. u Facimus mentionem etiam corum qui ante nos obdormierunt , ut Deus Orationibus aliorum , suscipiat preces nostras . Cyril . Catech. 5. mystag . x Andr. Rivet . Critici sacri . lib. 3. cap. 8. & Rob. Coci censura Patrum pag. 118. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyril Catech. 4. y Suo loco & ordine nominatur , sed non invocantur . Aug. lib. 22. de civit . Dei cap. 10 tom . 5. z Intercessione Angelor●●● indiget infirmitas nostra . Hilar. in Psal. 129. a Hilar. in Psal. 124. Nec leve praesidium in Angeli● , qui Ecclesiam quadam custodiâ circumsep●●unt . b Circuibat cum Sacerdotibus & populo omnium orationum loca , ante Martyrum & Apostolorum thec●● jacebat cilicio prostratu● , & auxilia sibi ●ida Sanctorum intercessione poscebat . Ruffin . lib. 2. hist cap. 33. b Circuibat cum Sacerdotibus & populo omnium orationum loca , ante Martyrum & Apostolorum thec●● jacebat cilicio prostratu● , & auxilia sibi ●ida Sanctorum intercessione poscebat . Ruffin . lib. 2. hist cap. 33. c Theodosias Sanctorum invocator 〈…〉 ; ●liud enim est pos●●re à Sanctis auxilium , quo● 〈◊〉 invocare 〈◊〉 aliu● a Deo poscere , Sanctorum i●tercession● : ex inte●cessione non ●●●uitur invocatio . D●ct Andrew●s in Respons . ad B●l●●r . Apolog. cap. 1. P●g 45. d T●eatise of Inv●cation of 〈…〉 e Ruffinus quò sup●à f Dei ●●plo●avit 〈…〉 S●●rat . hist. lib 6●● p. 4. g De●m pr●cab●●ur . The●d ●●b . 5. ● p. ●4 . h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sozom. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Pag. 102. edi● . Rob. Stephani . In Lat. editione Ruffin . l 7 cap. 24. k In●lina aurem tuam [ Ma●ia ] in pre●es nostras● & ne ●blivi●caris populi tui — & in●rà , ad ●e clam●m●s — & in●ra — ●●t●rc●de Hera , & Domi●● & Regina , & mate● Dei pro nobis Athan● serm . in Evang. de s●nct . Deipara . se● A●nunciat . l B●llar . lib. 1. de Sanct. B●at●t . cap. 19. m Sermo de sanctissimà D●i●a●a , non vi●●tur esse S At●anasij , sed ●l●●ujus ●oste●ioris● qui nost sextum Co●cilium fl●ruerit . Bell●● . de Scriptor Eccles. ad ann . 304. in Athanasio . n B●ron . tom 1. Annal. ad ann . Ch●isti . 48. o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Athanas. to . 1. orat . 3. contr . Arrian . p Sanctos non à crea●o postulare , ut auxiliator s●● . At●anas . or t. 2 con . Arrian . pet . Nannio Interp. q B●llar . de Sanct Beatit . lib. 1. cap. 19. r Verae pietatis milites , u● Dei amicos honoran●es , ad monument● quoque illorum accedimus , vot●que ipsis sacimus , tanquam viris sanctis . quoram intercessione ad Deum non parum juvari p●ofitemur . Euseb . lib 13 praep●rat . E●angel . cap 7. s Augustin . ●e cur● pr●mortuis . ca● 8. t Ad M●numenta quoque●●lorum acce●●mus , votaque ipsi● sacim●● . Euseb. de P●aep●rat . Evangel . lib. 13 c●p . 7. Euseb. ope●a Io. Dadraei , Parisij● . 1581. u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Eu●●b . 〈…〉 13. c● . 11. ex 〈…〉 ●●●phani . Lute● . 1544. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●useb ●b●d . lib. 4 c●p . 10. pag. 88. & 89 x 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid l 4. c. 21. p. 〈◊〉 . in edit● Ro. S●eph g●ae . l. ●●et . 1544. y 〈…〉 18. in 〈…〉 to . 3. p. 247. z D. Fulke in his Annot . in Rhem. Test. upon 2 Peter 1 15. Et Rob Co●● 〈◊〉 Scr●pt . Vet. p. 118. a Nec in me quidquam bont reperio , quod in conspectu tuo memorari poss●t , nisi hoc solum , quod praeter te , aliam ignorem . S. Ephraem . sermon . p●g 65 tom . 1. b Idem ibid. pag. 269. edit . Vossian●e . c Author Commentariorū in Epistola● Pauli , aeq●alis , si●e dubio Ambrosij fuit . Bellar. lib. 4. de Iustif. cap. 8. Sol● fide justi●icati sunt dono Dei. Id. in 3 ad Rom. Et impius per solam fidem justificatur apud Deum . Id in 4. Rom. g Nullum opus dici● legis sed solam f●d●m dand●m in caus● 〈◊〉 Id in c. 10 h Fides enim sola justificat . Hilar Comment . in Math. canon● 8. i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basil Homil. 22. de Humilitate . to● 1. k Nam ●●de mihi tan●um meriti , cui indulgentia pro coron● est Amb●os . in 〈…〉 virg . ●om . 1. l Q●●d p●ssums dignū praemis● 〈…〉 Dei● 〈◊〉 d●cretorum in homines 〈◊〉 procedit . Amb●os . in P●●m . 11● . serm 20 to● m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basi● . in Psal. 114. 〈◊〉 . 1. n Si qu●● ex quo creat●s est Ala● ad con●umm●tion●m usque mundi cer●●●●● 〈◊〉 Satan●m , & 〈◊〉 e●●lictiones , 〈…〉 it perag●●et , 〈…〉 ad●pturus . M●●ar homil 15 in●erpre●e Ioanne P●●● , in Bibl. S. Patr. tom . 2. edit . 2. pag. 353. ed●● . ●ute●ae , per M●●g 〈…〉 158● . o Censina S●r●p●o●um Peterum . pag. 117. p And● . Ri●et Crit. 〈◊〉 l. 3 cap 9. & 10. q Cyril . Hierosol . Catech . 4. r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Catech . 4. s Cyril Catechesi Mystagogicà 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyril . Catech. Mystag . 4. u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Idem . Catech. Mystag . 3. x Andr. Rivet . Critici sacri . lib. 3. cap. 10. y Cyril . Catech. Mystag . cap. 4. z Bellar. lib. 2. de Euchar . cap. 13. §. Quarto . a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyril Catech. 3. b Sub 〈…〉 datur 〈…〉 Eu●h●r . 〈◊〉 . 3 § 〈◊〉 c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cy●●l . 〈◊〉 . 4 d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id 〈◊〉 . 5. B. Mo●ton 〈…〉 . Book 3. ●h●p . 4 〈◊〉 4. f g h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●heodor . E●cl●s Hist li. 1. cap. 7. i Bellar lib. 4. de verbo Dei cap. 11. k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●h●od . quò supra . l Theod. quò suprà . m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theod. lib. 1. cap 7. n Eus●b de vit● Constantini● lib. 3. cap. 13. o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid. li. 3. c 23. p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theod. l. 1. cap. 1● . q 〈◊〉 de vi●a C●nstan lib. 1 ●ap . 16. r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id ibid. l. 4. c. 63. s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. I●id . gr●●dit Rob. S●ep●●ni Lutetiae an . 1544. t u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Con●il . Ni●●n . 1. 〈…〉 6 ●ag . ●8● ex edit . Tilij Pa●●s . 1●●0 . x Sensus est , quià ità Pontifex Romanus consuevit permittere . Bellar. lib. 2. de Pont. cap. 13. §. Quarta . y The Grand Imposture of the ( now ) Church of Rome , by the Bishop of Coventrie and Lichfield . Chap. 8. sect . 2 z [ Quoniam parilis mos est ] id est , sicut Romanus habet omnium suorum Episcoporum potestatem ; ita & Alex●ndrinus ex more habet per Aegyp●um● &c. Card. Cusan . concord . Cathol . l. 2. c. 12 a 〈◊〉 2. de Pont cap. 12. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Socrat lib. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . cap. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Synod . Occumen 2. can . 3. p●● 306. edit . Tilij G●aece . Notes for div A16161-e52640 * nommatur●●●●them ●●●them . de Sc●●ptor . Ecclesiast . a In Ethicis plus exc●ll●t● quam in Didasia 〈◊〉 & Ex●geticis● Dan Toll●n● in Synopsi de legendis Pa●●ibus . b Sozo●en . lib. 8. cap. ui● . hist. Eccles. c In ●xlio ponti m●●itur , Anno 411. T●it●em . de Scrip Eccl●s . d Hier●n●mu● mo●it●r 〈…〉 & Theod 〈…〉 . T●●them i●●d● 〈◊〉 lib 2 de Euc●●rist●● , cap. ●3 . f Augustin . 〈◊〉 lib. 8. cap. 12. g Rom. 13. vers . 13 14 h Isai. 57.1 . i Sedulius Presbiter , natione Scotus , claruit Anno 430. Trith●m . de Script . eccles . k Sedulij Scoti Hi●erniensis , in omnes Epistolas ●auli Collectane● excus . Basil. 1528. l In 〈◊〉 qu● aper●è 〈…〉 . Aug de Doct●●n . 〈◊〉 li. 2 c 9 tom . 3. m Loquitur de ill● 〈◊〉 quae necessa●ia sunt omnibus simplici●●● , qu●●lia sunt quae habentur in Symbolo Ap●●tolico , & D●●alogo . Bellar. lib. 4. de Ve●bo D●i non sc●●pto . ●●p 11. §. ultimo . n 〈…〉 I● . ibid. § 〈◊〉 . o Aug. de 〈◊〉 Christ. lib. 1. cap. 1. & lib. 4 ●a● . 4. p r s Rejoynder to the Iesuits Reply , sect . 5. pa. 1●0 . t Quod ubique quod semper , quod ab ominibus creditum est . Lirin . u Non omnia quae Dominus fecit cōscripta sunt , sed quae scriben●●s tam ad mores , quam ad dogmata putarunt sufficere . Cyril . Alexand. tom . 1. lib. 12. in Iohan. cap. ult . x Sufficit divina Scriptura ad faciendum eos qui in illà educati sunt sapientes et probatissimos et sufficientissi●am habentes intelligentiam . Cyril . tom . 1 lib. 7. cont . Iulian. pa. 159. y Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus , it●●a quae non sunt scripta renuimus . Natum Deum esse de virgi●e credimus , quia legimus : Mari●m nupsisse post partum non credimus , qula non legimus . Hieron . tom . 2. advers . Helvid . z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Chrysost. in 2. epist. ad Thess. tom . 4. edit . Savilij p●g . 234. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Hom. 13. in 2. ep . ad Cor. To. 3. edit . Savilij . pag. 624. b Regula Fidei , non totalis , sed partiali● Bellar. lib. 4. de verbo non scripto . cap. 12. §. Dico . c Hic Prologu● Scripturarum quasi Galeatum principium omnibus libris quos de Hebraeo vertimus in Latinum convenire potest , ut scire valeamus qui●quid extra hos est inter Apocrypha esse ponendum ; igitur Sapientia quae ●ulgo Salomo●is inscribitur , & Iesu ●ilij Syrach liber , & Iudith , & Tubias , & Pastor 〈◊〉 sunt in Canone . Hieron . Tom. ● . prae●at . in libr. Regum . d . 〈◊〉 ●arthag te●tium Can 47. f Ho● 〈◊〉 [ Maccab●●●um ] non Iul●i sed 〈◊〉 Can●nicis hab●t Aug. de Civit Dei. lib. ●8 . cap. 36. tom 5. & de M●●abil . S. ●cripturae . li. 2. cap. 34. tom 3. g Quo●um supputatio t●mp●rum , non in Sc●ipturu sanctis , quae Cano●●cae app●lla●tu● , ●ed in alijs invenitur , in quibus sunt M●ccabaeorum L●b . ● Aug de C●vit . D●● . lib. 18 c. 36 h In 〈◊〉 libr●● , et si aliqui● mi●abilium numero in●erendum i●veniatur , de ho● tamen null● cur●●a●iga●imur , quia tintum ag●r● pr●posui●us● ut d● divi●i C●●on●● mirab●l●bus exp●sition●m t●●ge 〈◊〉 . August . de Mirabil . S. Scr●ptu●ae lib. 2. cap. 34. i L●br●m Iu●●th , in Canone S●●iptur●rum Iudei non 〈◊〉 dicunt●r . Aug. d. Civitat . Dei. lib. 18 c●p . ●● . k Sapientia & Ecclesiasticus , propter eloquij nonnullam similitudinem , ut Salomonis dicatur , obtinuit consuetudo , non autem esse ipsius dubitant doctiores . Id. ibid. lib. 17. cap. 20. l Synod . Carthag . apud Balsam . in editione Ioh. Tilij . m Caranza in summ● Concil . & Codex Cano●● vetus Ecclesi● Romanae . n Hieronymus non est regula fidei — nondū eares satis erat explorata . Canus loc . Theol. li 2. ca. 11. o Adm●tto Hieronymū in eâ ●uisse opinione , qu●a nondum generale Conciliū de hi● libris aliquid statuerat . Bellar. de ve●bo Dei li. 1. ca. 10. § Respondeo . p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Chrys●st . sup 2. Co●● Homil . 18. tom . 3. edit . Savilij pag. 645. q Sacerdotes qui Eucharistiae serviunt , & sanguinem Domini populis ejus dividunt . Hieron s●p . Sophon cap 3. tom 6. r Nihil illo d●tius qui corpus Domini can●stro vimineo , sanguin●m po tat in vitro . Hieron Epist. ad Rusticum . tom . 1. s Avaritiam eje●i● è t●mplo Hier ibid. — sac●o vasa erogavit in usum pauperum E●asm . in loc . Hiero●ymi . I. F. Rejoynder to D. Whites Reply , 7. point . u Non solum nem● p●ohibetur , sed ad bibendum poti●s omn●s exhortantur , qui vo●un●●●bere vi●●m Aug. to . 4● qu. 57 sup Levit . Sang●●● Abe . sig●●●ic●t sanguine● Ch●isti , qu●●niv●●sa ec●les●● acce●t● di●it Amen . Id. ●bid . qu. 49 x Cumque a● tegen●am in●id●litatem s●am , n●st●is a●de●nt interesse myst●●i●● , ita in Sac●am●nt●●●m 〈◊〉 se tem●er at , ut interdū 〈◊〉 lateant , ore i d●g●o C●risti corpus accip●urt , s●●guinem auté Red●mptioni . ● strae haurire omnia● d●●linant ; quod ide● v●str●m volumus s●i●e sanctitatē ut vobis hujusmodi hom●nes et his manifestentu indi●ijs , et quorū depre●ensa ●●rit sacri●ega 〈◊〉 , n●tati et proditi , á S●ncto um societate , s●cer●●ta i aut● crit●te pellantu● Leo ser. 4. de Quadrages . y Comperimu● autem quod qui la●●mptà tant●●●odo corpo is sacri poti●ns , a calice sacri cruno●is abstincant ; qui proculdubi● ( quùm neset qu● superslitione do●entur obst●ing● ) aut integra sa●ramenta recipiant aut abinteg●is arce●tur : quia divisio unius eju●demque mysterij fine gra●d sacrilegio non potest perven●re . Dec●e● 3. part . de Con●ecrat . Dist. 2. cap. Comperimus autem . * [ ●ut integr● ] Hoc ●●t●lli●● de Confi●i●nte . G●o●●a ibid. z Vinum non bibunt dicentes fel esse tenebrarum . August . de Haeres . 46. Tom. 6. a The Rejoynder to Dr. Whites Reply . b Floruit Cyprian ann 250. Bell. de Script . eccles . c Manichaei a Manete quodam dicti sunt circ● annum 273. Prateolus de Haeres . lib. 11. d Leo non commendavit usum Calicis contra Manichaeos , sed admonuit ut diligētur observarent quosdam Manich●os , qui ut se Ca●holicos simularent , ita sumebant calicem , ut sanguinem non haurirent in alterâ specie . Vasquez qu. 80. art . 12. Disp. 216. nu . 42 e Quid●m probabiliter exp●ic●nt de 〈◊〉 Mani●●ae●● , q●i communicabant sub alte●● specie tantum : 〈…〉 licet 〈◊〉 verbi 〈…〉 poss●t 〈…〉 reddit , non 〈…〉 esse 〈…〉 ut sine grandi sacrilegio divi li ●●queat nempe intellige●e videtur ratione suae signifi●at●●onis & institutionis . Vasquez . in 3. part . Tho●ae q●aest . 81. Disp. 216 nu . 76. f Dormi●●ti Ad● fit Evi de ●atere , mortuo Christo per●utitur la●●● , ut pros●●ant Sacram●nta , quib●s formetur Ecclesia . August . tract . 9. in Ioan. & tract● 15. to 9. Leo ep . 22. g Qued●m pa●●ca pro multis cad●mque factu facillim● , & intellectu augustissima & observatione cass●ssima , ipse D●minus , et Apostolica tradidit Disciplina , sicuti est Baptismi Sacramentum & celebratio corporis & sanguinis Domini . Aug de doctr . Christ. ●ib . 3 c. 9. tom . 3 h Sacramentis ●ume●o paucissimis , observatione facillimis signifi●atione prestantissinis , so●iet t●m novi pop●li colligavit ; si cuti est Baptisinus , & cōmunic●●● Corporis , ●t sang●i●is i●fius Aug. epist. 118 ad Ianuar. tom . 2. i H●ec sunt Eccl●siege mina Sacramenta . Aug. de Symbolo ad Catech. tom . 9. k Sicut enim antequàm sanctificetur pani● , panem nominamus : divin● autem illum sanctificante grati● , mediante Sacerdote , liberatus est quidem ab appellatione ●anis , dig●us aut●m habitus est Dominici corpo●is appellatione etiamsi natura panis in ipso remansit Chrysost● ad Caesa●ium Monach. l Neque in toto Chrysostomi opere ullus est liber . vel Epistola ad Caesa●ium . Bell. lib. 2. de Euchar. cap. 22. §. Respo●deo . m Non est hoc ●oannis Chrysostomi , sed ●oanni● cujusdam Constantinopolitani Pet. Mart. defensio doctrinae de Eucharistiâ adversus Gardinerum . pag. 368. n Stephen Gardin●r in his Explication of the true Catholike faith , touching the Sacrament of the Altar . pag. 116. ●●rta Sacrame●ta quae 〈…〉 & sanguinis Christ , d●vira r●s ●st , propter qu●d , 〈◊〉 p●r ead●m divinae 〈◊〉 , ●●nsortes natu 〈…〉 timen esse non des●●t ●●bstanti● vel natura pa●●● & vini . G●l●sius de du b. natur . in Christo , con●●à Fu●ichen . p●g . 233. B●sil . 1528. & in Bi●●●ioth . Patr. to . 5. pag. 475. Pa●is . 1575. p Loq●●tur de Essen●ia & natu●à accident●um . B●ll●r . lib. 2. de Euchar. c. 27. § S●d . & Gelasiu● idem docet quod The●do●etus . Bellar. ibid. § Eadem . q No●andum est Gelasi●m i●●um non ●uisse Rom●num Ponti●●●● Bellar. loco citato . §. Vbi● Id Ibi● . an●o●●2 ●●2 . t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodor . Di●log . 2. cap. 24. p●g 113. u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Ibid. x Neque enim signa mysti●a post sanctification●m r●c●●ūt à suà naturà● manent ●nim in priore su●s●anti● , et figur● , et fo●m● & videri et tangi poss●n● , sicut & p●ius . Theodor. tom 2. Dial. 2. Inconfusus . Gentiano Herveto Interprete . y Non loq●itur de sub●st●ntiâ quae dist●nguitur c●●trâ 〈◊〉 ; sed de essentiâ & naturâ Accidentium , quae ipse perpetuò symbo●a appell●t . Bellar. li. 2. de Euchar. c. 27. §. Sed. z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theodor . Dial. 2. ca● 22. p. 105. a Bi●hop W●●te● Reply to Iesuit Fi●hers Answer , 6. point . Doctor Featlies Conference with M. ●gleston . and Wo●d . b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Th●od . 〈…〉 c●p 8. p. 34. c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Ib●d . d Theodoretus de alijs quibusdā erro●ibus in Concilio Ephesino notatu● fuit , etiamsi posteà resipuit . Greg. de Valentia lib. de Transub . cap. 7. sect . 11. pag. 390. volum . de reb . fidei controvers . e Mariam virginē quae peperit Dominum nostrum Iesum Chris●um , non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicendam , sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ dixit Nest●rius ] Danaeus in Aug. de Haeres . cap. 91. ex Evagrio . f D. Crakentho●pe of the fifth generall Councell . cap. 9. nu . 9. g Ex hac autem similitudine plerumque e●iam ipsa●um r●rum nomina accipiunt , quarum Sacramenta sunt , sicut ergò secundum qu●●dam modum Sacrame●tum Co●po●is Christi ●orpus Christi est . Augustin tom . 2 Ep●st . 23 ad Bonifa . h Vt Baptismus dicitur sepulchrum , si● hoc est corpus meum . Aug. con . Faust. lib. 20 cap. 21. i Non enim Dominu● d●bitavit dicere , hoc est corpus me●m● cum sig●●●n ●aret co●poris sui . August . to 6 contr . Adimant . c. 12. k Q●●●quid in s●rmone divino neque ad morum honestatem , neque ad si●●i veritatem propriè ref●●ri pot●●t , siguratum esse cognos●●● . Aug. lib. 3. de doct●●● . Christ. c. 10● tom 3. Si preceptiva locutio ●lagitium aut facinus videtur ●ubere , figurita est● ut [ N●si manduc●veritis ●arnem meam ] sacinus videtur jubere . Id. Ibid. c. 16. m Figura ell ergo , pr●ecipiens passioni Domini esse communicandum● et ●uavitèr a●que utilitèr rec●●dendum in memori●● quod pro nobl● caro ●jus ●rucis●xa & vulnerata sit . Id. Ibid. n Q●omodo in c●●um 〈◊〉 mittam , ut ibi s●dent●m t●neam● s●dem 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 August . sup . 〈◊〉 50 tom . ●● o 〈…〉 . 25. p 〈◊〉 enim 〈…〉 . Id. Ib●d . 〈◊〉 . 20● q 〈…〉 illud corp●● in manibus 〈◊〉 Aug. to●● . in Psal 33. Con●● 1. tom . 8. Bi●hop Mor●on of ●he M●sse , Booke 4. ch●p . ● . s●ct . 8. s Et ipse se portab●● Quodāmodo . Aug. in Psal. 33. conc . 2. t Sicut secundum quendam modum Sacramentum Corporis , corpus Christi est ; ●ta Sa●ramentum sidei Fides est . Aug. epist. 23. ad Bonifac. u Qu●madmodum si cera igni adhibi●a illi assimilatur , nihil substantiae remanet , nihil superfluit : sic & hic pu●a mysteria consumi corporis substantia . Chrysost tom . 3. Homil. de Euchar. in Encoenijs . x Bish. Bilson of Christian Subjection , the fourth part , pag. 658.659 . &c. y Num vides panem ? num vinum ? Nè putetis corpus accipere ab homine , sed ex ipso Seraphin forcipe ign●m . Chrysost. de Euchar. in Encoenijs . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . z Non sunt Conclonatorum verba semper eo rigore ac●●p●end● , multa enim Declamatore● per hyperbolen enunciant Hoc interdum Chrysostom● cō●ingit . Sixt. Senens . Biblioth . lib. 6. anno● 152. a Dentes carni suo infe● Chrys. tom . 3. Homil. 45. in Io●n . b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lingu● cruentatur hoc admirabill sanguine . Chrys. tom . 2. Homil. 83. in Ma●h . c Ille non te baptizat , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●d Homil. 50. in Math. d Quando hoc mys●e●ium trad●dit , vinum ●radid●t . Chrys Homil. 82. in Math. e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ch●ys . in Hebr●● 10. Hom. 17. to● 4. pag. 523. edit . Savilij . f Corporaliter enim s●lius per bened●ctorem mysticam nobis , ut ●oma unitu● ; Spi●itualitèr autem ut Deus . Cyrill . in Ioan. lib. 11. cap 27 tom . 1. g Communicatione corporis et sanguinis Christi , ipse in nobis est , & nos in ipso . Id. ibid. l. 10. c. 13. h Nos unam veneram●r Imaginem quae est Imago invisibilis et omnipote●tis Dei. Hi●ron to . 50. li. 40. in Ezech c. 16. i N●lla imago e●us coli debet , nisi illa quae hoc est qu●d ipse , nec ipsa pro illo sed cum illo . Aug ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap 11. k Tale simulac●●um Deo nefas est Christiano in templo collocare . Idem tom . 3. de Fide & Symbolo cap 7. l Sic omnino ●rrare meruerunt , qui Christum & Apostolos ejus , non in sanctis codicibus . sed i● pictis pari●tibus quaesierunt . Id. to . 4. de Consens . Evang. lib. 1 c. 10. m Nolite consectari turbas imperitorum , qu● vel in ips● ver● Religione superstit●osi sunt . Novi multos esse sepulchrorum & picturarum adoratores : n●nc vos illud admoneo , ut aliquando Ecclesi●● Catholicae maledicere desi●atu , vi●uperando m●res hominum , quos & ipsa co●dem●at● & quo● quoti●ie tanq●am malos ●ilios corrigere st●det . Id. to . 1. de mor. Eccles . Cathol . cap. 34. * See in the second Centurie S. Austins testimonie on the 113. Psalm . n Dico Augustinum scripsisie cum librum in primordio conversion● su● ad sidem Cath●licam ; tamen posteà meli●s instructu● excusavit [ eos ritu● ] ab Idololatri●●● Bell● li. de Imag. cap. 16. §. Dico . o Bellarm. de Imaginib . cap. 23. & 25. p Thom●s 3. part . qu. 25. art . ● . q Mani●e●tius ●st , quam ut multis verb●●●xpl●c●ri debeat — ita ut ●l summ● adorationē quae ●el ● Pag●n●● suis f●nu●●c●● is ●xhib●i ●on●ucuit , nil ● nostris reliqui ●●ctum esse vid● atur . Call●●d●● Consult . de Imagin . r Sunt exim be●e mul●i ●u●iores , qui Imag●nes ●ola●t non ut sig●● , s●● pe●i●●e qu ●si ipsae ●easam ali qu●m habeant ●t ijs magis fi●●● q●àm C●●isto , vel alijs Devis q●●●● d●ca●ae sunt P l●d . Vng. de Inv●nt . li. 6 c●p . 13. * M ●●i ●●●●stiani in re bo●● ple●unque pe●●ant , quo● Divos D●●●●que●on a iter venerantur q●● Deum . Nec video in m●ltis q●●d fit dis●●imen i● 〈◊〉 ●o●um opinionem de Sanctis , & il quod G●n●il●s p●t●hant de suis D●●● . 〈◊〉 . Vives Schol●n Au●ustin . de Civit. D●● . l. 8. cap. 27. s Theodoret lib. 5 ●istor . cap. 19. t Sozomen 〈◊〉 . lib. 5. cap. 20. u Bishop Whites Reply to Iesuit Fishers Answer , point 1. pag. 228. x Id. ibid pag. 246. y Recte quoque Commentaria in Proverbia tribuuntur Bedae , non Hieronymo . Bellar. de Script . Eccles . seculi quarti . z Nullum invocare , id est , in nos orando vocare nisi Deum debemus . Hieron . tom . 7. in Proverb . cap. 2. a Quicquid dixero , quia ille non audit , mutu●● videtur . Id. to . 1. ad Heliodor . Epitaph . Nepotiani . b Non sit nobis Religio cultus hominum mortuorum . Aug. tom . 1. de verâ Relig. cap. 55. c Ad quod sacrificium , sicut homines Dei , qui mundum in eju● confessione vi●●r●nt suo loco et ordine n●minantu● , non tamen à Sa●erdote qui sacri●icat , i●●o● antur . August . li. 22. de ●ivit . Dei. c. 10. to . 5. * Non tamen à sacerdote qui sacri●icat , invocantur ; Deo quippe , non ipsis sacrificat . ●ac . Pa●●el . Litu●g . secul . 5. tom . 1. Non invocantur ut Dij . L●● . Coquaeus . — Card Perron . d M●nuale Ec●esi● Sali●b●●●●●is . In Canone Mi●iae e Bi●h●p A●d●ewes Answer to Ca●di●●l perron's Reply . pag. 3● 38. f B●●l● . And●ewes ibid. g M●nuale Eccle● . Sali●bar . ibid. h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 Serm. 7. de 〈◊〉 tom . 6. Edit . S●vil p●g ●02 . i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem in dimissione Chana●●ae tom . 5. Edit . Savil. p. 190. k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id●m Se●m . in Philip. v. 18. c 1 de profectu Evang. tom . 5. Edi● . Savil p●g 417. l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id●m in Acta Apost . c. 16. Homil. 36. m Protulit haec , adversus quosdam d●sides , qui 〈◊〉 Divor●m patrocinio ●●mmi●tu●t , ut interdū ipsi 〈◊〉 se t●t●s in peccata a●●●ciant . Sixtus Senens . Annot 123● ut ●esert Nobil ●l mimus in notia in Chrysostomum . n Haec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . dicuntur , non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nobil . Fla●in . not ●● Chrysost. o Sanctis suppli●●t●●us a●cedit , ut pro se apud Deum interced●nt . Chrysost. Homil. 66. ●d popu . Antio●hen . p Bell●r lib. 1. de Sanct. Beatit . cap. 19. q ●x Homi●ijs ad pop An●io●he● viginti & una tant●●m ●eperiri 〈…〉 in antiqu●s 〈◊〉 Bellar. li. de Script . ●c●les . ●d an . 398. r Deu●er . ●2 . 32 . s Non sunt Concionatorum verba semper eo rig●re accipienda ; multa enim D●clamato●es per Hyperbolen enunciant Hoc inte●dum Chrysostomo ●ontingit . Sixt. Senens . Biblio . lib. 6. annot . 152. t Theodoretus in Historia Sanctorum patrum , singulas vitas ita concludit ; ego autem huic narrationi finem imponens , rogo & quaeso ut per horum intercessionem divinum consequar auxilium . Bellar. li. 1 de Sanct. Beat. c. 19. u Multa it●m habet de Invocatione Sanctorum lib. 8. ad Graecos . Bellar. quò sup●à . x Rob. Coci Censur● Patrum . pag. 195. Injuri● est en●● pro 〈…〉 17. de ve●b . Apost li. z Sixt●s Senens . Bibl. San●t . lib. 6. Annot 345. 〈…〉 of this ●pinion . a Secreti● 〈…〉 A●g li● . 2. de civit . De● cap 9. tom . 5. b Omnes in und commun●que●ustodia detinentu● . Lact●n . li 7. cap 21. c Primum in tabernacul●● ; secundam in A●rijs ; tertio in Do●o De● . Be●n . ●erm . 3. de omnibus Sanctis . d Vt no●tri meminisse 〈◊〉 quib●s pass●mus preci●us 〈◊〉 . S. Max●●●●erm . de S. Agn●te . in M. B●blioth Patr Colon . 16.8 . to 5. pag. 29. e M●ximi Homiliae , & r●tiquae ferè quae de Tempore , de Sanctis circumferuntur , maximae faciend●e non sunt . Eliens . Respons . ad Bell. Apolog. c. 1. p 42. f Tribuuntur simul , & S. Ambrosio , et S. Maximo . Bell. de S●r. Eccl. ad ann . 420 Maximi Taurinensi● sermones , ai● Perkinsus , incen●tae fid●● sunt ; ex ijs enim plu●imi varijs authoribus ad s●ribuntur . Andr. Rivet . Crit. sacri . l. 4. c. 23. g Bishop . Montagu of the Invocation of Saints . pag. 207. h Adestote Angeli Dei , Deprecamini Patria●chae , orate S. Prophetae , estote Apostoli Suffragator●s , praecipuè tu Petre B. quare files pro ovibus et agnis ? S. Victor V●icens . l. 3. de perseq . Vvandal propè sinem . & in Biblioth . Patr. tom . 7. pag. 1928 Par●●dit . per Margarin . de la Bigne . ann . 1589. i ●●co●maes is●●os cursu● n●ture V●●g● M●ri●● in Domino nostro ●esu Christo ●us●epst ut 〈◊〉 ad se 〈◊〉 s●●ntnis subventi● ; ●t sic restaura●er omne ge●us 〈◊〉 ad se vententium n●va Eva si●ut omne gen●s vir●rum Ad an no●us recuperat Fulgent . in serm de Laud. B. Ma●iae . k In Appendice ad decimum tom●m Augustini . Pa●is . 1586. l Et per ●on●m aemulationnē ip●o●um ambite suf●ragia . ●eo serm . 5. de Ep●phan . V●de cu●dem in se●m , d● annive●sar●o suae assumptionis , & de ●anct . Petro & Paulo & Lau●●n●o . m Flavianus Martyr pro nobis oret . Concil . Chalced. act . 11. n 1. Verè Patres , sed non verè citantur . 2. Verè citantur , sed sidei suspect●e . 3. Et ve●i P●tres , & verè citantur , sed nihil ad rem . Resp. ad Card. B●llarm . Apol. cap. 1. p. 39. Post-nat● . G●egory the first , Gregory of Turon , Bede , Anselme , Bernard , Damascen , Theophylact. Suspect●e Fidei . Ign●tius , Cornelius Papa , Athanas. de S. Deipara , Ephraem de laude Mariae , Nazianzen upon Cyprian , Cyril's Catechisme , Chrisos●ome's 66. Homily ad popul . A●tioch , Tulgen . de laude B. Mari● . Non verè citati . ●asil in ●rat in 40. Martyr . Eus●bius de praep . Evang. Rhetoricantur Paties . Nazian●ere , Hie●ome . S. Maxi●us , Nyssen . Victor , Paulinus , Prudenti●s . Patres ve●● citati , sed nihil ad rem . o Vbi non simul fuerint , simul d●sunt . Leo S●rm . 7. de Qu●d●●ges . p Sola Fides Christi mund●t August . in Psal. ●● tom . 8. — praecogn●tis , quod non fuerant credituri in Fide , qu● 〈◊〉 a p●catorum obligattone liberari . q Chrysost in cap. 4. ad R●m . tom . 4 & de side & l●g● nature . tom . 3. r Ipse ergo p●●●atum ut 〈…〉 in ipso ; 〈…〉 non suum , 〈…〉 nec in ●● , s●d in nobis 〈◊〉 Aug. tom . 3. in Enchi●id . ad 〈…〉 cap. 41. s In 〈◊〉 Fidei pro non peccanti●us h●b●ntu● quibus peccata n●n imputantur Id. tom . 8. in P●al . ● 18 conc . 3● t Si texit 〈◊〉 Deus , n●luit adv●●t●re ; si noluit ●dve●●e●e , 〈◊〉 animadverte●e , 〈◊〉 punt●e , noluit 〈◊〉 , malu●t ignoscere Id● s●p●● Ps●l . 31. u I●sa 〈◊〉 n●stra 〈…〉 ●it● , ut 〈…〉 remissione●o st●t 〈◊〉 per●e●● 〈◊〉 virtutu●● Id tom 5 de civit . Dei. li. 19. cap. 27. x V●e et●am laudabil● vitae hominum , si r●mot● misericordi● discutia● eam Id. tom . 1. confess . lib. 9. cap 13. y Omnia mandata 〈◊〉 deputantur , quando qu●●q●id non fit ignos●●tu● . Id. to . 1. Retract . lib. 1. cap 19. z Ro● . 8.18 . a ●ieron super Ephes. 2. tom . 9. b C●rysost . oper . imperfect in Math Homil 53. c N●que enim de quali 〈…〉 um ●perum 〈…〉 Leo ●erm ● de Assump . 〈…〉 Id. serm ● de Pass . Dom. d No● pro merito quidem 〈◊〉 ●itam ae●ern●m sed ta●tum pro grat●● 〈…〉 ●oan . tract . 3. tom . 9 e 〈…〉 Hil●r de T●init lib. 11. f 〈…〉 . Aug. 〈◊〉 . lib 10. cap. 4. ●om 1. g 〈…〉 & 〈◊〉 non mer●●dem sed glor●am vocavit 〈◊〉 quae expectantur . Theod. in Rom. 8. tom 2 Gentiano Herveto interprete . h Temporalibus labo●●●us ●terna i● aequilibrio ●on respondent . Id. ●n Rom. 6. vers . ul● . i Si nostra considerem●s merita desperandum est . Hieron . lib 17 ●n Isai. cap. 64. to . 5. Nullum opus dignum Dei justitià reperietur . Idem lib. 6. in Esai . cap. 13. k Chrys. tom . 5. de Compunct . Cord. ad Stelech . post ●ed● in Lat. editione . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Chrysost. de Compunct . Cord. ad Stelechum . tom . 6. edit . Savil. pag. 157. l Qu●d ergo praemium ●mmorlit it is poste● 〈◊〉 , coronat dona sua , non merita tu● . August . in Ioan. tract . 3. tom . 9. Cun Deus coronat 〈…〉 , ni●il aliud 〈◊〉 quam . M●nera sua Id. epist. 105. tom . 2. m Fidelis Deus qui se postrum debitorem fecit ; ●on aliquid à nobis accipiendo , sed tanta nobis promitendo quicquid promisit , indigmis promisit . Id tom . 3. in Psalm . 100. n Rhemists Annot. upon Hebr. 6. sect . 4. o D. Augustinus dum toto spiritus ac verbo●ū ardore pro defensione Divinae gratiae pugnat advers . Pe●agianos , liberum arbitriū cum 〈◊〉 divinae gratiae ex●oll●ntes , in alterā quasi ●oveam delabi vid●tur minusque interdum tribuere quā par sit liber● hominis volūtati Sixt Senens . in Bibl. Sanctâ lib. 5. in prae●at . p Vtcunque in hac disputatione modum fortasse excesser●t Augustinus Stapleton . de Iustificat . lib. 2. cap. ult . q Et credo jam feceris , quod te rogo . Aug. Confes. lib. 9. cap. 13. tom . 1. r Deprecantes ut pro ●● interaedi jubea●i● , nullam habentes dubitationem , beatam illius anima● in requ●e esse ; sed u● fidem & delectionem nostram ostendamus in amicum charissimum . Carol. Magnus apud Guliel . Malmesbu . d● gest . Reg. Anglor . L 1. c. 4. s Tale aliq●id etiam post h●n● vitam 〈◊〉 , incredibile non est 〈◊〉 ut ●●m ita sit 〈…〉 , ●t aut taveniri aut la●cre . Aug. in En●hi●id . cap. ●● tom . 3. t Siv● ib● tan●um , sive et hic ●● ibi ; sive ●deo hic , ut non ●●i , sae●ularia q●●mvis a 〈◊〉 ne ven●alt● ) 〈◊〉 ig●em transi●o●iae tribulati●●●●nveniant , non ●●d●guo quia so●sitan verum est . Aug. de C●vit . De●l . 21. c. 26. & de Fide & oper . c. 16. tom . 4. u Tertium penitus ignorantus , im●● nec esse in Scriptures Sanctis invenimus . Aug. Hypog . l. 5. to 7 x Nec est ullus ulli medius locus , ut p●ss●t esse nisi cum D●●bolo qui non 〈◊〉 cum ●hri●to . Aug de 〈◊〉 mer●● & ●●miss . ● . 1. c. 28. Habent gaudium 〈◊〉 & m●l● to m●ntum Id. in Ioan . ●ract 49. tom . 9. y In 〈◊〉 e●um quemque 〈…〉 , in hoc cum com●rehendet mundi nov●ssimus d●es Id epist. ●0 . z M●t. 18 8● & 3.12 . a Non da●o quod non 〈◊〉 ; ignem 〈…〉 8. Aug. in Psal. 80 1 Cor 3.15 . c See Saint Austins Summes by M● Cromp●on . d Ap●a●ium , loci is●ius Episcopus , quampiam ob causam à c●●tu ●idelium exclusit , ●und●mque Synodus exauctoravit , q●em Sozimus Papa ad se conjugtentem , causamque ibi probant●m absolvit , & cum literis ad Synodum ●em●ssum recipi imperavit . Binnius in Cōcil African sextum tom . 3 concil O●cum . 8. act . 6. p. 867. edit . Colon. 1606. e In Co●cilijs verioribꝰ qu●e accip●u●tur Nic●●na●a S. Cyril . Alexan. Ecclsiae et ● venerabili Attico Constātinopol . Antistite miss●● — in quibus tale aliquid non potuimus r●p●●●re . Binn . in Conc. Charth . 6. c. 105. p. 646. tom . 1. Sed nunquam in Concilio Niceno in L●tini● Codicib● legimus — in nullo Codice Graeco ea potu●mus inv●ni●e . Id. Ibid. cap. 101 pag. 64● col . 2. f Decreta Nic●●na prudentiss●mè justiss●m●que p●oviderunt , quaecu●que negotia in suis locis , ubi o●ta sunt , ●inienda . Id. Ibid. ca. 105. pag 646. g By [ Vnive●sall ] is meant a Synod of the Diocese and not of the whole World. Conc. Constan●inop . Can 6. h Nisi fortè quispiam est qui credat , unicuilibet posse Deum nostrum examini● inspira●e justitiam , et innumerabilibus congregatis in Concilium Sacerdotibus denegare — nam ut aliqui tanquam à tuae sanctitatis la●ere mi●tantur , rulla inven●mus P●trū Synodo , ne fumosum typh●● saecu●i in Eccl●si●m Christi vid●amur inducere . Binn . qu● sup●à cap 105. Concil Carthag . pag. 646. Pro● Apology , tract . 1. sect . 7 subd . 2. k Bellar li 2 de R●m . 〈…〉 . 25 & 〈◊〉 quo suprà . l In null● in●enimus p●trum Synodo . Con● . Carthag . cap. ●05 . m Subs●ripserunt Ali●i●● Au●ust●●us et ●aeteri Epi●copi 217. Concil . Ca●thagin . ca 101. n Hoc concilium O●cume 〈…〉 ab A●gustino epist 162. plenarium universae 〈◊〉 Con●ilium . 〈◊〉 . no● . in C●nc●l . Sardi● §. 〈◊〉 tom . 1. o Omnia ●portuit Concilia 〈…〉 Baron . ad an . 347 〈◊〉 . 74. p 〈…〉 2 p●g . 407 q 〈…〉 3●7 . B●ron ●od . ann● nu● 1. 〈…〉 an . 4●4 Ba●on . & Catholic●m Sa●di●ense habit ●n suit , 〈…〉 tum est A●i●anum . Bar. ann . 347. r Conc. Carth. 6. ca. ● . s Bellar. lib. 2● de Rom. Pont. cap. 24. t Quod si ab eis ( id ●st Epis●opis vi●ini ) provo●ādum put●verint , non provocent nisi ad Africana Con●●●ia , & ad Primates pro●inci●rum s●●rum , a● t●ansmarina autem qui put●verit appelland●● , ● nullo 〈◊〉 ●●ricam in Communione 〈◊〉 . Con●il . 〈…〉 pag. 〈…〉 pa. 6●3 . u In hoc concilio , non jus appeland● ad Sedem Apostolicam sed tantum modū p●osequend● appellationis per Legatos a Latere , controve●sum ●uis●e , a●t Binnius in Con● . C●rch●g . 6. ●om . 1. pag 619. x Bonifacio 〈…〉 Bellar. 〈…〉 Pont cap. 25. 〈…〉 Augustinus . y Augustini ●pist . 90. ad Boni●ac Papam . Appellatio est certissunum Argumentum prin●●p●tus Bell. li 2. de Rom Po●t . cap. 21. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ● authorit●tate ac nutu Theolos●● cogeb●tur . E●agr . hist. lib. 1 cap. 3. b Sacerdotes Chal●edon●m venerunt ●uxta nostra prae●epta . Concil . Chale . apud B●n . tom . 2. act . 3. pag. 84. c Omnes mansuetud●nē vestram cum gemitibus & lac●rimis supplicant Sacerdotes g●neral●m Synodum jubeatis intra Italiam celebrari . Leo Epist. 23. d Dico nullum Concilium generale Catholicum ● solo Imperatore indictum , id est , sine consensu & authoritate Rom●ni Ponti●icis . Bell. lib. 1● de Concil . cap. 13. § Ad h●c . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Synod Chalced . act . 16 can 28. pa. 350. in editione ●ilij . * Supponi● , quod Romana sedes tunc primatū habere me●uerit , cum Romani or●is imperio potirētur atque adeo non divino , sed huma●o jure caput Eccle●inum effecta suerit . Not. Binn●j in Conc. Chal. act . 15 p●g . 180. tom . 2. A Leg●t● Ponti●icis ●●●l●matum est . B●lla●m . lib. 2 de Rom Pon● . cap. 18. § 〈◊〉 . g Est autem 〈◊〉 ●ecr●●um ●oncilij 〈…〉 a m●j●r● part● . Bel. li 2 de ●oncil . c 11 § At 〈◊〉 lib. ● tit . 17. de Reg. Iu●●s 160. h Haec omnes dicimus , haec om●ibus placent . Con●●l . C●alced . apud Bin. act . 16. pag 137. tom . 2. i Et ●ota Synodus appr●havit . Ibid. k R●latio Synodi ad Leonem p●st C●ncil . Chalced. ●ct . 16. p. 14● . l Contra●ic●io nos●ra 〈…〉 . Ibid. pag. ●37 . m Doctor Crakanthorp of the fift general Councell . chap 18. sect . 29. n Leo scribit , se Concilium illud app●obasse solùm quantum ad explicationem Fidei . Leo Epist. 59. ad Concil . Chalced. Bellar. li. 2. de Rom. Pont. cap. 22. § secundo . o Conciliorum Iudicium tum demum firmum est cum accesserit Romani Pontificis confirmatio . Id. ibid. lib. 4. cap. 1. §. Sed. p Sed ita usus obtinuit longo tempore . Cusan . conco●d . Cathol . li. 1. ca. 16. q Et Canones quidem Constantinopolitani Concilij Eudoxianos damnant ; sed quis fuerit eorum author Eud●xius , minimè dicunt . Romana autem ecclesia ●osdem Canones vel gesta Synodi illius hactenus non habet , nec accipit ; in hoc autem eandem Synodum accepit , quod est per eam contrà Macedonium definitum . Greg. Epist. l. 6 indict . 15. epist. 31. r Et 〈…〉 Synod●s 〈…〉 Id ●p l●b 2 ●●dict . 1● . 〈…〉 . s Dr. 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 18. 〈◊〉 2● . y Sanctio . Germanus in Britanniam ven●● & pelagia●am hae●●si● p●o●●iga●it M●th . Westmon . ad ann . 446. z Master Speeds Historie . lib. 6. cap. 9. a Beda Histor. Anglor . lib. 1. cap. 15. b Greg. ep l. 2. ind●ct 11 ep . 10. Savino ●ubdi●●o●o . & lib 1. Epistola● . indict . 9. epist 24. c Cum Ecclesia distra●eretur . & pars Mariam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Hominiparam , pars 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 D●iparam nominand●m a●●irmarent , Nestorius , voc●m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , qu● Maria appell●retur , ●xcogitavit . Evage . Histor. Ecclesiast . lib. 1 cap. 7. d Concilia generalia mea sunt ; primum , ultimum m●●ia . ●amp . Rat. 4. Notes for div A16161-e70700 a B●lla●● de notis Eccles . c●p . 9. b Neminem velim sic amplec●i mea omnia , ut me sequatur , nisi in eis quibus me non errare perspexerit . Aug de persever . Sanct. cap. 21 tom . 7. c Multa ●sse in opusculis meis quae ●ossunt justo judicio culpari . Id. de orig . anim● cap. 1. tom . 7. d Master Iew●ls Sermon at Pauls Crosse. e W●itak●r in 〈◊〉 Rat. 5 Camp. f T●ti ad nostras partes pervolant . Id. ibid. g Patres in maximis judicijs toti sunt nostri , in le●ioribus varij , in paucissimis ac minutissimis vestri . Scultetus in Medullae Patr. parte 2. c. 15. p. 140. h Conference with Hart. chap. 8. divis . 6. i Audi dicit Dominus , non dicit aut Ambrosius , aut Augustinus , sed dicit Dom●nus . August . Epist. 48 tom . 2. k 〈…〉 Au●ust . Epist. 19. l 〈…〉 34. m 〈…〉 c. 12. § R●●p●nd●o . n Reliqui ve●ò scriptores inferiores & human● sunt deficiuntque interdum , ac monstrum quandoque pariunt . Canus loc . Theol. l. 7. c. 3. nu . 7. o Bene tamen scimus Pygmeos Gigantum humeri● impo●itos , plusquam ipsos Gigantes videre . Stella ●narr●t . in Luc. cap. 10. p. 15. to . 2. super illa verba , Consiteor ●ibi Pater . p Ephes. 2.20 . q Cyprian in epist. 73. ad Iubian . tom . 1. r Misericordi●r suit O●igines , qui & ipsum Diabolum , atque Angel●s ejus post graviora pro Meriti● & diuturniora supplicia , ex illi● cruciatibus eruendos , atque sociandos S. Angelis cr●didit . Aug. de Civit Dei lib. 21. cap. 17. tom . 5. & ibid. c. 24. Origen in his booke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , held this opinion . s Hoc etiam Paracletus commendavit . Tertul. de Animâ . cap. ult . t Sixt. Senens . Biblioth . lib. 5. annot . 233. u Matt● . 22 30. & 1. thessal . 4.17 . b B●lla Pl● 4. super formà Iuram . August . quest . 71. in Exo● . tom 4. c Philo Iud●eus in libro de Decalogo . d Ioseph Antiquit. Iudaic . lib. 3. Greg. N●zianzen . in Carm. ●5 . in D●●alog f Origenes in Ex●d . Homil . 8 tom . 1. g At●anas in Synopsi ● Scripturae tom 4. h Author Oper●● imper●ecti in Math. Homil. ●9 . i Ambros in Epist. ad Ephes. cap ● . tom . 5. k Hie●on i● 6. cap ep ad ●phe● l August . qu●st● vet & 〈…〉 7. tom . 4. m Sup Severus Sacr●e 〈◊〉 lib. 1 cap 16. n Zo●●ras Arnal tom 1 o 〈◊〉 Trid. 〈◊〉 5. 〈…〉 orig . & 〈◊〉 6. de ●ustif . can . 23. p Sancti omnes qui in ejus rei m●moriam inciderunt uno 〈◊〉 asseverarunt , Betam virginem in peccato originali conceptā . Mel. Canus loc . Theol. l 7. c. 1. q Patr●s tam sunt nostri quam Gregorius decimus tertius . Camp. rat . 5 r Neque enim Patres censentur , cum ●uum aliquid , quod ab Ec●l si● non acceperunt , vel scribunt , vel d●cent . Du●aeus Resp. ad Whit. 〈◊〉 rat . 5. p. 140. s E●tenus , non Pater sed vitricus , non Doctor , sed seductor est . Gretser de jure p●ohibendi libros . lib. 2. cap. 10 pag 328. t Ego● ut ingenue fatear plus vni summo Pontifici creder●m in his quae fidei Myst●ria tangunt , quam mille Augustinis , Hieron●m● , G●egorijs ne dicam Richardis , Scoti● , Gulielm● . C●rnel . Musso . Comment . in Rom. c. 14. pag 606. u See Doctor Iames of the Bastardy of fal●e Fathers ; and Doctor Reinolds Conf●rence with Hart Ch●p 8. Divis. 2. x Bellar. de Rom Pont. lib 2. cap 14. y Rhem. Annot. in Pet. 1.15 . z P●al . 4 3 a Eus●b . hist lib. 2 c. 23. Ioseph . antiq . Iud. lib. 20 cap. 8. Qui tamen [ S. Iacobꝰ ] octo ante Petrum annos Martyrio vitam sinierat . Cusan . lib. 3. de Concord . Cathol . cap. 2. & lib. 2. c. 17 b Ostendamusque verissima esse , quae B. Petrum docuisse Clemens dicit . Fr. Turrian . defens . Canon . & epist. Decretal . lib. 4. cap. 4. pag. 306. c Quales sunt quae aedi●●● sacri● mutulares statuae pilis aut columnis imponuntur — patere ●os nihilo utiliores statuis lapideis esse . Budaeus de Asse . lib. 5 pag. 277. d The life of Saint Dominicke . e Bede●s Letters to Wads●worth pag. 109. 110 f Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. 2 cap 15 & 16. answe●ed by D. Field . lib. 5 cap. 35.36 . g Bellar. de E●char . li. 2. toto . h Bell●r . de Purgat . lib. 1. cap. 6. i Sixt. Senens . Biblio● lib. 5. Annot. 171. * Bellar. l. 1. de Sanct. Beat. cap. 19. * Voyans grande quātité de lances debout , si leur sembloit ; — ils trouuerent que s'estoient ●●ās chardons . Philip. de Comminees Cronique du Roy loys vnziesme Chapit . xix . k M. Moulins waters of Siloe , or Con●utation of Purgato●●● , Chap. 7. pag. 324. l M. And. Rivet tract . de Pat●um auto●it . c. 11. Bi●hop M●untague his Treatise of the Invocation of Saints . pag. 155. Doctor F●atlyes Disput. vvith M. M●sk●t pag. 100 1 Cau●ion . 2 Caution . 3 Caution . 4 Caution . n Non sunt Concionatorum verba semper eo rigore accipienda , multa enim Declamatores per Hyperbolen ●nunciant , ho● interdum Chrysostomo contingit . Sixt. S●nens . Biblioth . lib. 6 Annot. 152. o Rhetoricati sumus , ●t in morem De●lamatorum , pau●ulùm Ins●mus . Hieron . advers . Helvid . p Ant●quam in Alexäd●à quasi Daemonium meridianü Arius 〈◊〉 innocenter quaedam & minus cau●e loquuti sunt . Hieron . in Apolog. 2. advers . Russinum . pag. 220. 5 Caution . q Tali qu●stione nullus pul●abatur ; vobis [ pelagianis ] nondum litigantibus securius loque●atur I●annes [ Chrysostomus . ] August . lib. 1. cont . ●u●i●n . c. 6. tom . 7. r S●d non erat ●x●●●tus hanc haeresin [ 〈◊〉 ] — multo vigila● 〈◊〉 diligentio e●que re●● d●t nos [ Pelagius ] 〈◊〉 li 3. de doctr . Ch●ist . c. 33. tom . 3. C●u●ion . Novi multo●●sse 〈◊〉 pulchro●um & pict narum ad●rato●es . Aug. de morib . ec●les . cap 34. tom . 1. Qui aut●m se in memorijs Martyrum inebr●ant , quomod● à nobis approbari possunt ? sed ●liud est quod decemus , aliud quod susti●em●s Idem c●ntrà Faustum M●nich● lib. 20. cap. 21. t●m . 6. t Quod a●tem instituitur pre●er con●uetudinem , ut quasi observatio Sacra menti sit● approbare non p●ss●m , etiamsi multa hu●u modi propter nonnulla●um v●l 〈◊〉 , vel turbulentarum personarum 〈◊〉 devi●andi libe●●●is impr●bare non audeo . Aug. Epist. 119. d Ianuar. u S●d ●liud est quod dos●m●s , aliud quod sustinemas ; aliud quo● praecipere 〈…〉 & 〈…〉 . Au● . contrà Faustum Mani●● . li 20 ca. 21. 7 Cau●ion . x Oportet ex verbis ape●ti● S Patrum expone●e ea● quae videntur obscura et dubia in alijs Patribus . Bellarm. lib. 2. de Euchar. cap. 37. §. Ex. y Quia benedictione etiam Natura ipsa mutatur . Ambros. de ijs qui myster . initiantur cap. 9. z Spiritus sancti operatione ad divinam aqua reformantur naturam . Cyril . Alexand. sup . Ioan. lib. 2. cap. 42. tom . 1. Georg. Trapezontio Interprete . a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg. Nyssen . Orat. Catechet . cap. 37. pa. 536. b Bellar. lib. 2. de Euchar . c. 34. § Sed — adducit testimonium Theophylacti●a c●p . 26 Math. & in cap. 6 Ioan. dicentis panem transmutari in carnem Domini . c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theophyl . in Ioan. cap. 6. vers . 54. pag. 654. 8 Caution . d Doctor Iames , of the Bast●rdie of Fathers . p●rt . ● . p. 12. Rob. C●ci Consura Pa●●um . p. 133. & 143. And. ●ivet Critici sacri . lib. 4. c. 5. de Hieronymi exegeticis . Id. lib. 3 c. 18. de ●●bijs & suppositijs to●i 4. & 5. Ambrosian . f Tynd●rus Tract . de Testibu● . g Master Harding . 1● . Artic. division 10. h Demegorica , non sunt Lit is Decretoria . D. Andrewes Resp. ad Card. Bellarm . Apolog. cap. 1. pa. 42. i King Iames his Cygnea Cantio , or Direction● for Students in Divini●●● , published by D. Featly . k Quicquid non unus , aut duo tantum , sed omnes pariter uno eodemque cōsensu , apertè , frequenter , perseverāter , tenuisse , scripsisse , docuisse , cognoverit , id sibi quoque intelligat abs●ue ullá dubitatione ●●ed●ndum . Vincent . Lirin . cont . Haeres . c 4. &c. 39. l Bellar. de N●t Ec●les . lib. 4 cap. 9. § Item . m L●●tiores interim quòd virgas evas●r●nt , q●am quòd meruerint principatum . Be●n . Epist. 22. n P●o actione gratia●um flammas meruimus odio●um . Aug. lib 3. con●●à Lit. 〈◊〉 . c. 6. tom . 7. o Pro p●rse●utionibus ●t bla●phemys vas electionis me●uit n●min●ri . Id. de pr●d●st . e● grat . c. 16. p 〈◊〉 Cerei 〈◊〉 O ●alix 〈◊〉 quae 〈◊〉 ac ta●tum meruit 〈…〉 Ma●●●le E●●les . Sarisbur . ●●g . 30 q N●que enim 〈…〉 , ut p●●pt●r ●a vita ●eterna deb●●tur 〈◊〉 jure . Merita o●nia 〈◊〉 D●i ●unt . Be●n serm . 1. in Ann●n●i B. Mariae . r N●que 〈◊〉 de quali●●●● 〈…〉 dono●um Leo S●●m . 12. de 〈◊〉 . Dom. s Rhemists Annot. up●● H●br . 6. sect . 4. t Vasquez in primam secundae qu. 114. u Opera bona justorum ex seipsis , absque ullo pacto & accep●atione digna esse remuneratione vitae aet●rnae , & equalem valorem cōdignitatis habere ad consequendam aeternam gloriam . Vasquez Comment . in primā . secund . q● . 114. disp . 214. cap. 5. in initio● x Missa Chrysostomi , in Biblioth . Patr. graeco-lat . Par. 1624. — & inprimis sanctissimae Virginis . ordo Liturgiae B. Ioann Chrysostomi ex versione Leonis Tusci apud Cassand● in Liturgiae . ca. ● . y 1 Cor. 15.26.54 . z At the buriall of the dead . a R●quiem aeternam dona ei● Domine , & lux perpetua luceat eis . Agenda Mortuorum , in Antiphonario Gregorij . apud Pamel . to . 2. p. 175. b Hanc igitur oblationem , quam tibi pro commemoratione animarum in p●ce dormientium suppliciter immolamus quaesumus Domine , benignus accip●as . Pamel . Liturg. pag. 610 tom . 2. c Mem●nt● Domine eorum qui dormiunt in somno pa●●s . A●brosiana Missa , in orat pro defunctis . Pamel . Liturg. pag. 303. to . 1 & Canon Missae , in Officio Gregor . apud . Pamel . pag. 182. to . 2. d Pro Spiritibus pausantium Ambrosij , Augustini , Fulgentij , Isidori . Missa Mozarabe . Muzarabes di●ebantur mixti Arabibus . In Liturg. Pamel . pag. 642 [ Et Pausantium ] quo nomine intelligi puto , Confessores qui in Domino , & sanct● pace quies●unt . Id. Ibid. pag 645. e 2 Tim. 1.18 . f Resuscita corpora eorum in die quem constituisti secundum promissiones 〈◊〉 veras et mendacij expertes . Cyr. Litur . ex Arab. in Lat. conversa . pag. 62. g Te qu●eso , summe Deus , ut charissimes ●uvenes maturà resurrectione suscipes , et resuscites ; ut immaturum hu●● vitae isti●s cursum maturà resurrectione com●enses . Ambros. de obitu Valentin . h Omnipotens s●m●iterne Deus , coll●ca●e digna●e corpus et animam & spiritum samuli tui N. in sinibus Abrahae Isaac & Iacob , ut ●um dies agnitionis tue venerit inter sanct●s et electos tuos eum ie●uscita●i praecip●as . G●●moldi Sacramentor . lib. in to . 2. Liturg. Pamelij pag 456. i — Vt in Resurrectionis glorià inter Sanctos tuos resus●●tari mercantur . Agenda mortuorum , in Antiphonario Gregorij in Pamelij Liturgi● . to . 2. p. 175 k Id verius quod prius , id prius quod & ab initio , ab initio quod ab Apostolis . Tertul. advers . Marcion . lib. 4. cap. 5. Id esse verum quodcunque primum , id esse adult●rum quodcunque posterius . Id. advers . Praxeam . cap. 2. Id Dominicum & verum quod prius traditum ; extraneum & falsum quod posterius immissum . Id. de praescrip . advers . Haeret. cap. 31. l Vaū tamen addit Scotus , quod minimè proband● est , ante Lateranense Concilium non fuisse dogma fidei Transubstantiationem . Bellarm. lib. 3. de Euchar. cap. 23. § Vnum . m Satis compertum est universalem Christi Ecclesiam in hunc usque diem ; occidentalem verò s●u Romanam mille omplius à Christo annis , in sol●mni praesertim et ordinaria hujus Sacramenti dispensatione utramque panis & vin● speciem omnibus Ecclesiae Christi membris exhibu●sse ; id quod ex innumeri● veterum Scripto●um , t●m Graecorum , quàm Laticerū testimonijs manifestum est . Cassand . Art. 22. Consult . de ut●âque specie . n De quo tamen [ purgatorio ] apud pris●os illos nulla , vel quam rarissima fiebat mentio ; sed et Graecis ad hunc usque diem non est creditum . Ro●●ens . ar● . 18● contra Lutherum . o Papa Vitaltanus , omnia in Christianorū t●mpl●s per suos sacrificos in latino sermone fieri jussit . Wolf. Lection . m●mor●bil . pa 74. ad an● 6●6 . p Sed & Lateinos nomen sexcentorum sex●ginta sex numerum [ habet ] & valde verisimile est , Latinienim sunt qui nunc regnant . Iren l. 5. advers . Haer. cap. 25. edit . Gallasij cap. 30. edit Fevard . q Cyprian l. 3. ●p . 15 Tertull. de pudiciti● . c. 22. r Si quis nostr●m prior divinae dignationis celeritate praecesserit , perseveret a●ud cum nostra dilectio pro fratribus & sororibus apud misericordiam patris non cesset oratio . Cypr. l. ● . cap 1. vel ( ut in alijs edit . ) ep . 57. ad Cornel. & de Discipl . & habitu virg . s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Greg. Nazian . orat 3. in Iulian. t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. orat . undecimâ in Gorgon . u Si , non est dubitantis , sed affirmantis , ut ●um dicit Apostolus ad Philemonem , Si habes me so●ium , suscipe illum . Bellarm. de Sanct. Beat. li. 1. cap. 20. § ad locum Nazianzeni dico . x Et tamen ge●●raliter orantibus pro indigenti● supplicantium . Aug. de ●urâ pro mortuis c. 16. to . 4. y Oramus ergo ut intercedant pro nobis , id est , ut merita eorum nobis suffragentur . Petr. Lombard . l. 4. dist . 45. lit . G. z Sanctos invocamus , ut medi●tores , quorum meritis et intuitu nobis Deus conferat , quae ex nostris accipere minus sumus digni . Biel . in Can. Missae lect . 30. Notes for div A16161-e78030 * Actes 14.17 . a In S. Scripturâ omnis fortium armatura reperitur , ex quâ vel contrâ Diabolum , vel ministros eju● fortitur repugnatur . Iust. Orgelit . in cap. 4. Cantic . b Tantùm ea quae in Propheti●is , Evangelicis et Apostolicis literis discere poterant , observantes . Beda lib. 3. Hist. cap. 4. c Columban . in Mono●lich . & in Epist. ad Hun●ld . d Quare hi libri inter Canonic●s S. non c●●runt ? Quoniam apud Haebraeos quoque super h●c diff●renti● recipiebantur , sicut Hieron . caeterique testantur . Iunil . African . de part . divinae legis lib 1. c 3. to . 1. Bibl. Patr. Par. 1589. e Cassandri Liturg. ca. 31. Pamelij Liturgi● . pag. 618. tom . 1. f Duo tantùm Sacramenta Theologi hujus sextae aetatis agnoscunt . Illyric . Catalog . test . verit . li. 6. g In isto sacrificio gratiarum actio a●que commemoratio est carnis Christi , quam pro nobis obtulit . Augustin de fide ad Petr. Diacon . cap. 19. h S●crificium panis & vini Ecclesia Catholica per universum orbem terrae offerre non cessat . Id. ibid. i Tribuitur à multis Fulgentio . Be●tramus hunc librum sub nomine Fulgentij citavit . Bell. de Scriptor . Eccles. sect . 5. in Augustino . k Bertram de Corp. & sang● Dom. ●udiamus quid B. Fulgentius in libello de Fide dicat . l Offerunt quidem S●●erdotes nostri , sed ad recordationē mortis ejus . Primas . in Heb. cap 10. m Offerimus quidem , sed recordationem sacientes mortis ejus . Ambros. in Hebr. 10. n Eandem hostiam offerimus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vel potius recordationem ipsius . Chrysost. in Hebr. 10. Homil. 17. o Filium Dei unicum per fidem recipiunt . Fulg. de Incarn● & grat . ca. 26. p In primo Decalogi mandato , sicut unius Dei cultur● servitusque manifestissimè praecipitur ; ità omni Creaturae adoratio ac servitus à fidelibus exhibenda vehementissimè prohibetur . Fulgent . ad Donatum . q Dracont . Poetic . Hexameron . in Bibl. Patr. to . 8. edit . 2. Par. 1589. s Non ex operibus , sed sol●●ide per gratiam , vitam habere te nosti Primas . in cap. 2. ad Galat. t Sola ●ides eripit Iesu Christi . Fulgent . de Incar . & grat . cap. 16. u Columban . in Monostych . pag. 62. x Grati● autem eti●n ipsa ide● non injust● dici●ur , quià con sol●m Deus 〈◊〉 suis dona sua reddit ; se● quià tantùm etiam ibi 〈◊〉 d●vinae retributionis exuberat● ut incomp●rabilitè atque in●ff●bilitèt omne meritum , quamvis bonae et ex Deo d●tae , humanae vo●u●tatis atque uperationis 〈◊〉 . edat . Fulg. ●d Monim . lib. 1. cap 10. y N●ll●t●nùs 〈…〉 salubriter 〈◊〉 ●emus , tàm in no , 〈…〉 nostro ope●e tanqu●m nostrum nobis aliq●●d ve●dica●e . Id. ●bid . z Et ide● quicquid justi in bonis op●ribꝰ ●●uc●●ficat , totum est referendum ad Christum . Iust. Orgelit . in cap. 2. Canti● . a Qu●●i●m vocatio Domini omne meritum praecedit ; nec in venit dignum sed fa●it : id●ò c●●m gratuita , alioqa●n justa diceretur . C●ssiodor . in Psal. 5. b Multa in homine bo●● sunt , que 〈◊〉 ●acit 〈◊〉 , nulla v●ro 〈◊〉 homo bona quae non Deus praestet ut 〈◊〉 homo . Concil . Ara●sic●● . ● . Cano. 20. C●r●nz● in summà Concil . c Hoc ●ti●m salubrit●r pro●item●r & credimu● , quod in omni opere bono , non nos in 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 per Dei 〈…〉 ; sed ip●e nobis nullis praecedentibus b●nis meritis , & ●●dem & amorem ●ui 〈◊〉 inspirat . Canon . 25. Ca●an●a ibid. d Concil . tom . 2. pag. 392. Edit . Colon. 1606. e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Evagr. Eccles. Histor. li. 4. ca. 11. f Can. 35. g Septem Britonum Episcopi , et plures viri doctis●imi . Beda hist. Angl. lib. 2. cap. 2. h Qui omnes [ Monachi ] labore maruum su● um vivebant . Galfrid . Monumetens . Hist. Reg. Britan . lib. 11. cap. 12. i In parte autem Brit●num adhuc vige●at Christianitas , quae à tempore El●utherij Papae habita , nūquam inter eos defecerat . Id. quò suprà . & Math. Westmon . ad anu . 596. k Fertur minita●s praedixisse . Beda hist. li. 2. c. 2. & Math. Westmonast . ad ann . 603. l At illi nihil horum se facturos , neque illum pro Archiep . habitu●os esse respond●●ant . Id. ibid. m Dinoc ●orum Abbas , mi●o modo liberalibus artibus cr●ditus diversis argumenta●ionibus ipsos ei nullam subjectionē d●be●e respondit . Galfii . quò ●uprà . n Cum Archi●pis●opum suum hab●rent ●ui deh●rent et v●ll●●t 〈◊〉 , externo ve●ò Episcopo se mi●●mè subjectos ●ore . Antiquir . Britan. in Augustino . pag. 46. o Cu●ctis qu● di●ebant , 〈◊〉 lab rabant . Beda quò supra . p Nam Daganus Episcopus ad nos veniens , non solum ●ihum sumere nobis●um , sed nec in eodem hospitio voluit . Bed● lib. 2. Histor. cap. 4. q Nec suam praedicationem inimicis suis impendere [ volebant . ] Gal●rid . quò suprà . r Antiquit. Britan. cap. 18. out of Amand. Xierxiens . a Fryer Minor collecteth thus ; Mo●a est discordia propter ●orum inobedientiam ad Augustinū . — Saxones conversi volebant Britones Augustino subdere . s Et sic mille ducenti eorum in ipsa die , Martyri● decorati , regni caelestis adepti sunt sedem . Gal●rid . Mon. lib. 11. cap. 13. t Britanni schismatis rei . Baron . tom . 8. ad ann . 604. nu . 65. u Cantuariens . Episcopus alterius Orbis Patriarcha dicius est . Berterius in Diatribâ . 2. cap. 4. x Three Conv●rsions of England , p●●t . 1. ch●p . 3. nu . 13. & ●4 . y Amand Xierxiens apud Antiquit. Britan. in Augustino pag. 48. Britones ●uerunt Catholici . z Britanniarum Episcopi se ad magnum Sardicum Conci●●um cōtul●●unt . Athanas. Apolog 2. to . 2. a Athanas. ibid. pag. 407. b Three C●ntrove●s . part . 1. chap 9. nu . 7. c Ipsum est quod B. Evangelista Ioannes cum omnibus quibus praerat ecclesijs , celeb●asse legitur . Beda hist. li 3. ca. 25. d Galat. 5 . 2● e Concil . Nicen. Can. 20. f Dr. Crakanthorp of the Popes temporall Monarchie . Chap. 12. g Galat. 4.9 . h Omnes Ecclesiae Asiae à Victore excommunicatae fuerint . Bellar. de verbo Dei. lib. 3. cap. 6. i A ●ide Christi nunquàm recesserant Britannorum reliqu●ae Matth. Westmon . ad an . 586. k Convers. part . 1. chap. 9. nu . 3. l V●i●as cùm Capite R●m●no 〈◊〉 s●mper ●uit nota 〈◊〉 ●atholicae . Bell. li. 3 de 〈◊〉 . milit . cap. 2. & 5. — et ●xtravagant Commun . dema●orit . & ●bed . Cap. unam Sanct. Sub●sse R●m . Pontifici omni ●umanae creatur● desinimus omninò esse de necessitate solutis . m ●ulla pij . 4. pro soim● Iuramenti professions fid●i . Dat. Rom. an . 1564. n Bishop Morton , 〈◊〉 L. Bishop of Durham . Notes for div A16161-e82420 a Bellar. de Scriptor . eccles . sect . 7. et li. 2. de Euchar . cap. 22. b Trithem . de Script . Eccles. c Trithem . ibid. — et in praefat . Etymolog . edit Venet . ann . 1583. d Vt ●aud in promptu esset , qui utriusque linguae peritus esset . Baron . Annal . tom . 8. ann . 593 nu . 62. e Nam no● nec Gr●ecum 〈◊〉 Greg tom . 2. ●p . lib. 9. epist. 69. f Primus Papa et Pontificij Cho●i pre●ult●r , & ultim●● Epis●opus Romanus . And R●ve● . Critic . s●cri li 4. cap. 29. g ●● . Panke● Collectane● out of S. Gregory . h In ho● volumine cun●●● q●e aedis●cant s●ripta continentur . Greg. in Ezechiel . li. 1. Hom. 9. tom . 2. i Flu●nta pl●nissim● , quià de quibuscunque s●rupul● in scriptu●is consilium quaeritur ●ine minoratione ad plenum invenitur . Id in Cant. cap. 5. k Greg lib 4. Ep. 40. ad Theod. 〈◊〉 to . 2. l Scriptura Epistola Dei ad Creaturam suam . Id. li. 4. ep . 40 Et p●r ●am Deus loquitur omne quod vult . Id. moral . lib. 16. cap 17. tom . 1. m Scriptura qu●si flu●ius est planus & altus , in quo & Agnu● ambulet , & 〈…〉 epist. ad L●and . cap. 4. Praet●● . in Iob to . 1. n Vtrisque manet communis , et parvulis , et perfectis . Isidor . de sum . bono lib. 1. cap. 18. o Greg. Moral . lib. 8. cap. 8. p Ex libri● lic●t non C●nonic●s ( Machabe●r●m testi●●nium pr●feramus Id. moral . li 19 ca. 17. q Secundum Gregorium in moralibus liber ●udit● , T●hia , et Macabeo●ū , Ecclesiasticus , atque liber Sapientiae non sunt recipiendi ad confirmandum aliqui● in side . Occam . Dialog . part . 3. tract . 1. lib. 3 c. 16. r In his Apocryphis etsi invenitur aliqua veritas , tamen propter multa fals● , rulla est in e●s canonica authoritas . Isidor . Etymolog . lib 6. cap. 2. s In nav● corpus et s●nguinem Redemptoris acceperunt . Greg. Dialog lib. 3. cap. 36 tom . 2. t Ejus ibi corpus sumitur , cujus caro in po●uii salutem parti●ur ; ejus sangu● non ●am in manus infidelium , sed ad fidelium ora perfunditur . Id. Dial. li. 1.4 . ca. 58. u Quid sit sa●gu● Agni , non jam audiendo , sed bi●endo didicistis ; qui sanguis super utrumque pos●em poni●ur , quando non solum Ore Corporis , sedetiam Ore Cordis ha●●itur . Id. in Sab. Paschae Homil. 22. tom . 2. x The Grand Sacriledge , sect . 7. y Vt charita●e omnes reconcil●at● inv●cem dignè sacramento corpori● et sanguinus Christi consocientur . Isidor . de Divin . Offi● . lib. 1. cap. 15. z Sunt autem Sacramenta ●aptismus et chrisma , corpus & sang●is Ch●ist● . Isid. Origin sive Etymolog . lib 6. cap. 19. a Sed panis , quià confirmat corpus , ideò corpꝰ Christi nun ●upatur ; vtaum autem quià sanguinem operatur in c●rne , ideò ad sanguinem Christi re●ertur — haec autem duo sunt visibilia sanctificata tamen per S S. in Sacramentum divini corporis transeunt . Isidor . de Offic. Ecclesiast . lib. 1. cap. 18. b Comedimus a●●em nunc cibum , sumentes ●jus memoriam pass●onis . Helych . in Levit. lib. 1. c. 2. c Mysterium di●itur , quod simul panis & 〈◊〉 est . Id. Ibid. lib. 2. cap. 8. d Greg. Epist. 109. ad Se●en . ep lib. 7 tom 2. e Adorare ve●ò Imagines , omnibus modis d●vita . Id. l. 9. ep . 9. f In ad●ratione solius T●initat● humiliter prost●●nantur . Id. ibid. g Non ut adore●tur , sed ut imperiti picturis i●spiciendis , ●aud alitèr ac literis legendis , rerum gestarum admoncre●tur , et ad pietatem incitarentur . Cassand . Consult . 21. h An non apertè s●ribit Gabr. Riel [ in Can. li. ● . ] patrem caelestem dimidium Regni sui dedisse B. Virgini Caelorum Reginae , idque in Esther significatum ●uisse . Cassand . de Offic. boni vi●i & Consult . Art. 21. i Doctor Field , of the Church , lib. 3. cap. 20. k O●d navi● Missale & Gradua●e , & Antiphonarium . 〈◊〉 de Vorag● serm . ●1 de Greg. 1. Gregor . subjunxit postulationes , di●sque nostros in tu● pace disponas . Cassand . Liturg. c. 21. Pamel . Liturg pag. 656. tom . 1. l Trith●m● de script . Eccles . m Abbas Nocherus de S. Gallo Sequentias pro●neumis composuit . Cassand . Liturg cap 21. n H●r●e B. Mariae ad usum Sarum . o Offic B. Mariae pi● v. ●ussu edit And the Office of the B. Virgin , according to the reformed Latine at Saint Omers . 1621. q Breviar . Rom. Sabbat . infra . Hebd●m . 4. Quadrages . r Gratia verò ex misericordià , atque compassione praebetur , & fide comprehenditur sol● , non ex operibus . Hesych . in Levit. li. 4 cap. 14. s Iustus igitur Advocatus nos●er , justos nos de●endet in 〈◊〉 ; qui● nosm●tipsos ●ognos●●mus & ac●●samus in justos . Greg. tom . 2 in Ezech ad finem . t Omnis humana justitia injustitia esse convincitur , si districte judi●etur . Id. lib. 9. Mor. cap. 14. u Ipsa nostra per●ectio culp● non ●a●et , nisi han● severus Iud●ae in subtili lan●e examinis misericordit●r ponsite● . Id. Moral . lib. 5. c. 8● & l. 29 c● 9. x Cathari propter munditiam it● se nominarunt ; gloriantes enim de suis meritis negant p●eniton●ibus veniam peccatorum Isidor . li. 8. orig . five E●●molog . cap. 5. y Ad vitam non ex meriti● , sed ex veni● convales●o . Gregor Mor. lib. 9. cap. 14. Et de solà misericordiâ tua praesumens impetrare quod non de meritis meis spero . Id. in Psal. 1. Poenitent● tom . 2. z Mala nostra pu●a mala 〈◊〉 , ●●na verò quae nos habere credimus pura bona esse nequaquàm possunt . Id. Mor. lib. 35. cap. ult . a Quamlibe● rectis operibus insud●mus , veram munditiam nequaquam apprehendimus , sed imitamur . Id. Mor. lib. 9. c. 28. b De quibusdam levibꝰ culpis esse ante judicium purgatorius ignis , credendꝰ est . Greg. tom 2. Dial. lib. 4 cap. 39. c Propter satisfactionem pro Mortalibꝰ remissis non plen●egrave ; expletam . Bellar. de purg●t . l. 1. c. 3. § Hinc . d Id. ibid. lib 4 cap. 40. & 55. e Dial. l. 3. c. 20. f Dial. l. 1. c. 8. g Gregorius in Dialogis quaedam miracula scribit vulgò ●ac●ata & credita , quae hujus presertim saeculi Aristarchi esse censebunt . Can. loc . Theol . lib. 11. cap. 6. h Dial. l 4. c. 55. i Deut. 18. v. 11 , 12. k Eccles. 11.3 . l In die mortis suae justus ad Austrum cadit peccator ad Aq●●lonem ; qui● et justus per ●ervorem spiritu● ad gaudi● ducit●● ; & peccator cū Apostata Angelo in frigido suo corde reprobatur . Greg. Mor. lib. 12. cap. 3. m Olympiodor . in ca. 11 Ecclesiast . n Cùm humani casus tempore , ●ive sanslus , ●ive malignus spiritus egredientem animam claus●ra carnis , acceperit , in aeternùm secum sine ullà permutatione retinebit , ut nec ●xaltat● ad supplicium pr●rua● , nec mersa aeternis supplicijs , ultra ad remedium ereptionis ascendat . Greg. moral . lib. 8. cap. 13. o Q●id aliud quàm s●●gularium sunt plebium c●pita ? & tame● sub uno capite omnes membra sunt Ecclesiae . Greg. lib. 4. Epist . 38. p Singularium plebium capita , sub uno Capite Petro . Stapleton . princip . Doctrinal . lib. 6. cap. 7. q 〈…〉 Greg● . lib 4. ●p . 3● . r 〈…〉 Id. lib 4 ep . 32. 〈…〉 Id. lib. 4. ep . 36. s Absit● 〈◊〉 Christianorū nomen 〈◊〉 Blasphemiae . Id. li 4 ep . 32. t Contrà E●●ngelicam sent●a●am B. petrum Ca●●numque statuta . Id. lib. 4. ep 34. u Ego si●entur di●● , quisqu●●e u●●versa , em Sacerdot●m 〈◊〉 , vel vo●ari des●●e●at in ●latione su● 〈…〉 quia 〈…〉 praepacit . I● . lib 6. epist. 30. x Ill●d recusavit , ad ●acili●s com●rimend●m super●ia● Episcopi Constantin●p . B●ll de ●ont . lib. 2 c. ult . § Re●pondeo . Mi●●s capi●b●t sola●●ax m●ibus divitijs , & 〈…〉 quam ●remita quid●● ex Fele 〈◊〉 . Ioan. 〈◊〉 ule●us in Festo omn●um S. Ser. 2. z Vt ●t ●umilitatem 〈…〉 in mente , et tamen 〈…〉 d●gnitatem 〈◊〉 i●●ono●e . Greg. l●b . 4. e●ist . 36. a Vt alij non sint Episcopi , sed Vicarij . Bell. de Pont. li. 2. cap. ult . b Vt et nulli subesse , ●t solus omnibus praeesse videretur . Gregor . lib. 4. epist. 38. c 2. Corinth . 11.28 . d 〈…〉 2 p●g . 419. e 〈…〉 2 de 〈…〉 31. f 〈…〉 Plat. in Boni●●● . 3. g 〈…〉 W●●●monast . ad An. 6●● . h Tu●● Archipraesu●e● Theonus Lond●niens . & Th●●ioc●●● E●●racens . c●m omnes 〈◊〉 sibi subd●●●● solo t●nus . 〈◊〉 vi●isse●t in Cam 〈…〉 ●iffugeruat . M●th . Westm●● ad An. 586. M. Speeds Hist. lib. 6. ch . 9. sect . 20. i Bed● Hist. lib. 3. ca. 3. k Beda lib. 3. Hist. cap. 3. & 6. l Id. ibi● . cap. 21● 22 , 24 m Id. ibid. cap. 3 , 4 , 5● 17 , 26. n Vade ab omnibus eti●am his qui de Pascha alitèr sentiebant , meritò diligebatur Aidanus ; nec solùm ● medio●ribus , v●rùm ab ipsis qu●que Episcopis , Honorio Cantu●rioru●● , et Felice O●iental●um Angl●rum venerationi habitu● est . Id. ibid. cap. ●5 . o Secundùm Imperial●● 〈◊〉 congr●●●ta est . C●●anza in Sum. Concil . p Honorio 〈◊〉 A●athem● Act. 13. & 16. q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Co●cil . 6 in 〈◊〉 habit . 〈◊〉 36● p. 401. ex edit . Io. 〈◊〉 . r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ibid. c●● 13 p. 374 s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ibid. p. 374. t Bishop Andrews Answer to Cardin. Per●on●s Reply . pag. 10. u Sace●d●tibus magnà r●ti●ne 〈◊〉 nupt●●s , 〈…〉 vider● . 〈…〉 2 vit● . x 〈…〉 Coster 〈◊〉 de C●lib . Sacerd. pr●p . 9. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . R●●s . Com. 〈…〉 O●h●rs call it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Quini-sextum . z 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Balsam●n Photij Nomocan . ex edit . Tilij pag. 359. — totius Synodi Rom. Ecclesiae vicem gerentes . Bals. in Phot. Nomoc. lat . edit . Par. 1561. a Non tamen in ecclesiasticis rebus magni●icetu● ut illa . Decret . p●rt . 1. Dist. 23. Renov . Edit . Par. 1507. b Nec non in Eccles. magnificetur ut illa . Edit . ●aris . 1585. [ Nec non ] sic emendatum est ex aliquot MSS. & Graeco ; anteà enim legebatur ; non tamen . Glossa ibid. c Licet universalia Concilia saepe legam●● convocata per Imperatores , im● omnia octo u● ex gestis haberi po●est . Cusan● de concord . Cathol . li. 2. ca. 2. d Pontificis est , non Imperatoris congregare ●yn●dum generalem . Bellar. de Concil . li. 1. ca. 12. Notes for div A16161-e89130 a Venerabili● Beda Pr●s●yter Anglus , floruit anno 720. Bellar. de script . eccles . b Al●ninus sive Albinus natione Anglus● S Bed● quo●dam auditor , cujus Alcuini minis●erio ipse Imperator omnibus libe●alium artiam disciplinis initiar● satagebat●●la●uit an . 770. Trithem . de script . eccles . c Adelb●r●●s , & Clemen● , & Sampson●●t complures alij ● B●ni●ac●o dissenserunt , quod re●iqut●rum venerationem , sta●aarum a lorationem , purgator●um praelica●et , & Sacerdotum conjugium ab●●garet . ●ist . M●gdeb●rg . Centur. 8. c. 8. p. 534. & Cent. 8. c. 10. p. 776. Catalog . Test ver . lib. 8. & ve●er . Epist. Hibernicorum Sylloge Epist. 15. & ep . 17. d Alber●us Gallus , & eju●dem sectae Sacerdotes atque Episcopi — D● B●nifacio adversari vehementissimè c●●perunt . Aventin . Annal. Boior . lib. 3. pag. 218. Iacob . Frisius in Biblioth . Philosophic● ad ann . 790. & B●laeus centu● . 14 cap. 32 33. f Beda vulgò ●acta●a miracula scribit . Canus Loc. Theolog. li. 11. c. 6. i Godwins Catologue of the Bishops of England k In tanta ●amiliar●tate apud eum habitus , & Imp●ratoris Magister deliciosus ●aerit appellatu● , Trith●m . Ibid. l Rursusque aliud Calvini opus ●miserunt sub nomini Alcuini ; Sixt. Senens . in Praefat. suae Biblioth . nu 3. m D. Iames of the Fathers Co●ruption . part . 4. pag. 50. n Homiliae Doctor jussu Caroli M. & Alcuin de Trinitate . Lugd. 1525. o Bellar. de script . ●ccles . in Chronolog . p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Damascen . de Orthodox . fide . lib 1 cap. 1. q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid. lib. 4. cap. 18. r Quem librum ● . Hi●ron● atque Isidorus inter Apocryphas , id est dubias Scripturas deputatum esse absque dubitatione testantur . Alcuin . advers . Elipant . lib. 1. pa. 941. Edit . Paris . 1617. s Corpori● & sanguinis Dominici myst●rium quod quotidiè in Sa●ramen●o à fidelibus sumitur . Lib●i Carolini de Imaginib . li. 4. cap. 14. c Qu●●●rgò ●ani● carn●m con●i●mat , vi●um 〈◊〉 sangu●●●m operatur in ca●ne , hi● ad ●orpas Chris●i 〈◊〉 , il●ud re●ertur ad ●a●guin●m Id. Ib●d . d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . h Concil . gener . tom . 3. pag. 599. edit . R●mae . ann . 1012. i Vndè Bed● , 〈◊〉 omnino prohibentur s●eri ad ●un● v●●elicet sin●m , ut a●orentur , & colantur . Beda , tes●e Ioan●e Ge●s●● p●r● . 2. compen . Theolog . de primo praecepto k Nil si non ●abentur d●●ogant●●i● , si h●bentur , pr●erogant : ●ùm tamen a●dicat●e quandam in●auta● levitat● afferant , a l●●at●e verò ●ulpa● inurant 〈◊〉 . M. lib. ● . advers . S●nod . 〈…〉 C●ssand●om Cons●l●●ar●●● 2● . de cultu Sanct. l Concil . Constant 〈…〉 mag habitum est . 〈◊〉 754. Bin. Conc. to . 3. pag. 2●● . m Qui imagin●m ●●●u●●uerit parare aut ad●●are , aut in Eccl●si● , aut in p●ivat● domo con●i●●uere , si Episcopus fuerit depen●t●r decretum extat in 〈◊〉 . Conc. 2. ●pud Bin. Act 6. p●g . 377. n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Zonar . h●st . to . 3 p. 88 Basil. 155● . o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Ibid. p 105. p 〈◊〉 . Ni●●n . 2. h●bit . est an . 787. B●n . in not . in i● . C●n●il . q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Annal. cap 188. pag 389. C●udeli●er & Insanabilitèr oculos ej●s ev●llunt , ita ut hunc mor● subsequens con●istim ext●●gueret , consi●io 〈…〉 Paul. D●acon . hist. lib. 23. pag. 747. r C●ux Christi lat●i● adoranda est . Aquin Sum. Theolog. pa●t . 3 quest . 25. a●● 4. s Bishop Bilson of S●bjection 4 p●rt . pag. 387. t u 〈…〉 Syno●us in Francia convoc●nte 〈…〉 traditionemque ma●o●um ip●● Grae●o 〈…〉 non in dicum voli●●●● , quo● 〈…〉 Missum . Hinc 〈…〉 . x 〈…〉 quam septi●am Graec● 〈…〉 . Ado V●en . in Ch●on ae●●t . 6. pag. 181. — . Regi 〈…〉 21. de Cul●● . Sanct. y Ad Apocryphas quasdam , & 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 . M. lib. 3. cap. 30. z Prot. Apol. tr . 2. sect . 7. pag. 364. a Carolus M●quatuor libros scripsit contrà v●lentes to●lere im●gines . Eckij Enchi●●d . cap 16. b Aug. Steuch●s de donat . Constantin● . pag 226. c Ca●oli ips●s titulo quatuor l●b●i cons●ripti su●re , quorum Hincmarus Episcopus meminit , et ●o u● ex●mplum hodi●que in ●ibliethe●●● Vatic●n● , et nonnullis G●llic loci● extat . C●ss●nd . Consult . A●t . 21. de cultu Sanctor . d Ind●x liber prohib auth●ritate Pij 4. primùm ●ditus , post●a ve●o a Sixto quinto auc●●s ; 〈…〉 H●n 〈◊〉 1611. p. 83 lit . ● . In●ertorum 〈…〉 e f 〈…〉 sit ergò tertia responsio , Concil . Fra●cos . de●inivisse potiùs verit 〈…〉 Synodo con●en●isse . Suarez . tom . 1. disp 54. sect . 3. pag. ●01 , 802. M●●unt . 1604. 〈…〉 Tho disp . 107. qua●st . 25. Art. 3. Ingolstad● 1610. Ab eodem Ad●iano 〈◊〉 qu●ntum a● alte 〈…〉 Be●l . de Concil . lib. 1 ca 7. § Qua●tū . — ●on 〈◊〉 Leg●ti R●ma●● Id. de Im●g . ●●p . 1● . § Si. h Co●tradictio nostra his gesti● inhaereat . Concil . Chalced. tom . 2. Concil . general . per Bin. actione 16 p 137. i 〈◊〉 ●mnes dicimus , 〈◊〉 om●ib●s placent . Ibid. p●g . 137. k 〈◊〉 tota Synodus app●obavit . Ibid. l 〈◊〉 Synodi ad ●eonem post 〈◊〉 Chal●ed . a●t . 16. pa. 1●●● . m 〈…〉 August . de 〈…〉 Dona●ist . l 2 c p 3. to 7. n Num credibile est Carolum in ipsum Adrianum tam acritèr scrip●isse● cùm ●um tātoperè coluerit ? Bel. de Imag. c. 14. §. num . o C●eteras cupiditates hujus unius ingenti ●upiditate presserunt . August . de Civit. Dei. lib. 5. c●p . 1● . p Leonem 3. Imperat. Constantinopolit . imperio simul & communione sidelium pr●v●t . Platina in Greg. 3. q Ne ●i aut tributum d●rent , aut ali●●atione obedi●ent . Sigon . de regno Italiae . lib. 3. r G●egorius● Romam cum tot● Italià ab illius Leonis imperie recedere faciens . Paul. D●acon . hist. lib. 21. p. 665. s 〈◊〉 ●ucque Commen●●●i ● in pro●●b t●buuntur Bede , ●o● Hiero●●●● .. Bell. de scrip . ecles . sect . 4. t Nullu● invocare , ●d est , in ● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Beda in cap. ● P●●verb to 4. u x Index . Expa●g 〈◊〉 Q●●●g . M●d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1584 y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 N●s●●● cont . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4 tom . ● edit . 〈…〉 z Eju●mors , nostra vita ; ejus damnatio , nostra justificatio . Beda in Psal. 87. tom . 8. a Per justitiam factorum nullus salvabitur , sed per solam justitiam fidei . Id. in Psal. 77. b Iustruit videlicet ut nemo vel libertatem arbitrij , vel merita sua sufficere sibi ad beatitudinem credat ; sed solâ gratià De● se salvari posse intelligat . Id in Psal. 31. c In suturo benè remuneretur , & hoc non ex merito , sed ex grati● solâ . Id. in Psal. 23. d Vt miserearis secund●m mesericordi●m ●uam , id est , te condignam , non secundùm iro●● , me condignam . Id. in Psal. 24. e Sordidare me potui , sed emundare nequeo , ●isi tu Domine Iesu sancti sanguinis tui aspersione mundum me facias . Alcuin . in Psal. 50. f Ad me unum cùm respicio , nihil al●ud in me nisi peccatum invenio ; tota liberatio mea , tua est justitia . Dei miseratione in nomine salvatoris , non nostris meritis vivisicati sum●● . Id. Ibid. g Ille solus liberare potest de peccato , qui venit sine peccato , & factus est sacrificium pro peccato . Id. lib. 4 in Ioan. cap. 8. Notes for div A16161-e94290 a Claudius , discipulus quondam ( ut serunt ) Bedae in Angl●● , et Collega Alcuini , natione Scotus , claruit an . 800. T●ithem de Script . eccles . b Cui Rabano , nec Italia similem , nec Germania peperit . Trith . verbo Raban . c Albini Anglici quondam Audito● R●●anus , claruit an . 855 Trit●em . H●ymo Episc. Halbe●stat . Alcuini Auditor , claruit ann . 850. Bell. de Scrip. eccles . Ioan. Scotus discipulus olim Bedae . Possevin . in Apparat . Sacro . to . 1. p. 868. d Remigius Antisiodorensis claruit ann . 880. Trith●m . c C●audius Cl●mens ●ce●us , 〈◊〉 Abbatis in funda●l● Academià Parisiensi C●ll●ga Possevir . in Appara● 〈…〉 . f Iac Vsserius Armach . Archi●p . vete● . Epist. Hibernicorum ●●ll●g in praefat . & epist. 19. g Proptertà errant quià s●ripturas nesciunt , et quià scriptura● ignorant , consequenter nesciunt virtutem De● , hoc est , Christum . Claud. in Math. li. 3. cited by D. Vsher , of the ancient Irish Relig. pag. 2. h Hoc quia de Scripturis non habet auctoritatem , ●á●em facilitate contemni●u● , qu● probatur . Id. ibid. i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nic●ph . Patr. C. P. C●non . Script . in operibus 〈◊〉 cited by S●● Humf. 〈◊〉 . Via devia sect . 5. k Bibite ex hoc omnes tàm minist●i qu●m reliqu● cred●ntes Pasch. de Corp. & Sang. Dom. cap. 1● . pag. 18● . tom 4. Bibl. Patr. Par. 1575. l M●luit D●m●nus Co●poris & Sanguinis sui Sacramenta fideiium ore percipi . Raban . lib. 1. de Insti●ut . Cleric . cap. 31. pag. 49. ●d●t . Colon. 1532. m Calix appellatur commu●i●atio , quasi par●●●ipatio quia omnes commu●icant ex illo , partemque sumunt ●x sanguine D●mini , quem contin●t in se. H●mo in 1 Cor. cap. 10 pag. 124. Edit . 1534. n Rhemig in 1. cor . ●ap . 10. v. 16. in part 3. to . 5●1● pag●8● ●8● o Andr. Rivet . 〈◊〉 . sacri lib 4. cap. 27. p Relatio majorum est● ità primi● temporibus missus ●ier● solitas , si●ut ipse Dominus noste● praecepit , commemoratione passion●● ejus ad●ibità , ●os corp●●● D●mini●o communicasse 〈◊〉 sanguini quos ratio permitt●bat . Valafrid . Strabo de reb . ●c●les . c. 22. in Bibl. p●tr . Par. 158● q Regino in Chron. ad an . 8●9 . Communionē co●poris ●t sanguinis Domin● de manu Pontif●●●● sumpsit . Lib. 2. pag. ●0 . Fr. 1583. r Sunt aut●m Sacramenta Christi in Ecclesi● , Baptismus & Chrisma . ●orpus quoque Domini et sangu●● Pas●h●l . de Corp. & sang . Dom. cap. 3. in to . 4. col . 162. Bib. Pat. Par. 1●75 . s Rab. de sacr . Euch. Col. 1551. ex Bib● Cuthb . Tunstalli Ep Dunelm . t Ecce duo ista sacramenta quid efficiunt . Id. ibid. cap. 23. u Quià panis corporis ●or confirmat , ideò ille congru●nter co●pus Christi nun●upatur ; et quia vi●um sanguinem operatur in carne , ideò refertur ad sanguinē Raban . de Instit. Cleric . li. 1. ca. 31. x Haimo in pass . secu●d . Marc. Fer. 3 palm . y Aliud est Sa●ramentum , aliud vi● sacramenti ; sacramentum in alimentum 〈◊〉 gitur , virtute socr●menti aeternae vitae dignitas adipiscitur . Raban . de Instit. Cleric . lib. 1. ca 3. Rabani libro , hanc 〈◊〉 quasi spuriam 〈◊〉 . P●aetat . ad Ma●h . Westmon . a Sa●ramentum muner●s aet●rai quod n●bis Domi●●● nass●rus i● mem●riam su● d●misit tenendum . Haimo in 1 Cor. cap. 1. b Q●od ●●inde Ap●sto●i imitati 〈◊〉 , & 〈…〉 & nunc per totum terrarum ●●bem generali●●● tota cus●odit ●cclesia . R●b●n de Inst●t . Cl●●●● . lib. 1. c●p . 32. c d 〈…〉 Colon. Ann● 1551 p●g 18● . f Panis ille 〈◊〉 figu●atè Christi corpus & sang●●● 〈◊〉 . Ibid. p●g . 183. g Et h●c ●orpus pign●s est & spec●es , illud verò ipsa veritas . Ibid. 〈…〉 . h Nam secund●m ●●●turarum substantiam quod ●uerunt ante conse●ra●ionem , ho● & postea ●ensis●unt . lb. pag 205 i ●omini●um corpus 〈◊〉 sanguis domini●us app●ll●●●tur qu●niā●jus sum●●t ●●pellationem ●uj●s 〈◊〉 sa●ramentum . Ibid. p. ●●● k Vid●mus ●●aque 〈◊〉 diff●renti●●epara●t in 〈◊〉 sanguini● & 〈◊〉 Christi , quod ru●c a 〈◊〉 ●●mitur in 〈…〉 illud quod natū●st ●e Ma●●a V●●gin● . Ibid p. 222. l A●imad● ertat ( ●●●●●sime princeps ) sapi●ntia vestra , quòd positis S. Scripturarum tell●morijs , et . S. Patrūd●c●is evident●ssim● mo●s●ratum est quò● 〈◊〉 qui co●pus Christi , ●t 〈◊〉 q●i sarguis Ch●ist● appellitur , ●igura sit 〈…〉 Ibid p●g 228. m n o p q r Quum igitur in Catholic●● veteribus al●ot plu●rimo●●●●amus error●s & ex●enuemus , ex●u●●mu● excog●tato commento pers●●● n●g●●●● 〈◊〉 com●●d●● ijs 〈…〉 cum oppo●untu● 〈◊〉 disp●●ationibꝰ ●ut in ●onflictionibus cum ●●versarijs ; 〈◊〉 videmus cur non ea●dem equitatem & diligentem recognitionē me●●atur B●rtramus , ne ●●ret●ci ●gganniant●●os an●iquitatem pro ipsis ●acientem ●xurere 〈◊〉 prohibe●e . Index expurgator . Belgie . pa. 12. lit . B. ut liber ●ertrami tolera●i emendatus queat . & ●udicium Vniversitatis Du●c●nsis Ibidem . s Legendum invisibilitèr pro visibilitèr , ●t [ s●cundùm creaturarum substantiam ] explicandum est secundum externa● species sacramenti Ind. expu●g . B●lg●● . pag. ●7 . t Concil . Tr●d . Sess. 2. Can. 13. u Protest . Apol. Tract . ● . chap. 2. sect . 7. x D. Vss●rius de Christian . Eccles. succ●ssione . cap. 2. sect . 18. y D. Vss●r . in Gotteschal●● , seu p●aedest . Cont●overs . cap. 11. z Be●tramus Pr●sbiter , q●● in ●ivin●s S●riptu●●● va●dè peritus , non mi●ù● vit● , qu●m doct●i●i i●sign●s s●●ipsit co●m●ndabile opus de p●aedestinatione , et librum un●m de Corp. & sang Dom. Trithem . ve●b . Be●●ram . a Refertur in Catalog● Scriptor Ec●lesiast . ut v●r ●on minùs vit● . quàm doctrinà insign●● , et Ca●●oli●●● . Cl●d . de Sa●ctes . de ●●b . Eu●h●●ist . controvers . rep●tit 2. p. 55. Par. 1575. b Brer●●y P●o● . Apol. ●● . 2 ● 2 sect . 7. c Is primus in Ecclesi● la●in● de 〈◊〉 ●u●i è s●ri●ere capit Bellar. de S●cram Eu. har . lib. 1. cap 1. §. Secundus . d Tantùm Lan●ia●●● ait , ●●●tum in 〈…〉 ●●●sell●nsi ●●m 〈◊〉 damna●um ●et 〈◊〉 ●xillius s●riptis opinionis 〈◊〉 ●eminari● 〈…〉 Cl●d . de Sa●nctes ib●d 〈◊〉 . 2. p. 54. e I●m . Scotus . dis●ipulus olim ●ede , et collega Alcuini unus ex ●undatoribus gymnasij Parisiensis , qui po●●e● ab Al●redo Rege ex G●llij● , ●●i Carolus Calvus eum ●ove●at , revocatus in Angliam , in s●holà Ox ●●iensi praelegit . ● Discipuli apud Monas●e●ium M●l●●sburiense graphijs trans ●ixerunt , & Martyr Christi ●●●i●atus est . Possevin . Apparat. to . 1. pa. 868. & Petrus ●rinitus lib. 24. de honestà Discipl . c. 11. f Inter legendum à quibusdam discipulis m●levolis interin●●batur A. C. 88● . ●ortass● non sine monachorum impulsu . Balaeus Cent. 2. cap. 24. g Ia● . Philip. Bergoni . Su●●lement . C●ron . Venet an 1503. Hospinian . hist. 〈◊〉 . part . 1 l. 4. p 316. & 317 — ●●br . ●ovel . de Antichr . in Prae●a● . h Doct●● notum est● candem esse veterem S●●t●am et Hiberniam . D. V●ser . in Gottes●halco c●p . 9. i Veter . Epist. Hibernicor . S●ll ge . D. 〈◊〉 . Vsserias ●pist . 22. m Milms●●●●n●● de gest . R●g . Anglor . lib. 2. c. 4. pag. 45. n Quae picturae xon ad adorandum , sed solummod● ( teste B. Greg. ) ad 〈◊〉 nes●i●ntium mentes in 〈◊〉 sunt antiquit●●●ieri permissae . Ionas Aureli●n . de cultu Imag. lib. 1 in Biblioth . Patr. tom . 4. pa● . 692. edit Par. o Creaturum verò ado●rari , e●que aliquid divinae servitutis impe●di , nesas ●u●imus ; hujusque sceleris patratorem detestandum 〈◊〉 anathem●tiz●ndum● liber● v●ce pro●l●mamus . Id. ibid. p●g 699 p Adorare alium praeter Pat●em , et Filium , et S. ● . impi●tatis est ●rimen . Ib●d . pag. 701. q Sed nullas antiquorum Catholicorum unquam c●s colendas vel adorand●s sertè existimavit . Agoba●d● opera . Par. 1605 pa. 253. r Rec●è nimirū ob ejusmodi evacuandam superstitionem ab orthodoxis patribus definitum est ; pictura● in ecclesi●●i●ri non deb●re ; ne quod colitur et adoratur , in parietibus d● pingatur . Id. ibid. pa. 254 s Quia non sunt ado●āda simulachra , nec etiam Angelus adorandus ●st . Rhemig . in Psal. 96. t Quid non sint Deo debitis ●ultibus et honoribus colend● , quae ab illu vel nobis facta sunt . Vala●rid . Strabo de ●eb . ecclesiast . cap 8. u x 〈…〉 est , 〈…〉 Agobardus , et r●liqui 〈…〉 . Bell. 〈…〉 Eccl●s . s●●t . 9. verbo Ionas . y Grae●o●um errores de Im●ginibus et picturis mani●e●tissimè d●tege●s ●egat 〈◊〉 ad●rari d●b●re ; quam sente●tiam om●es Cat●●li●i p●obamus G●egorijque M testimonium d●●llis se qui mur. Pap●● . M●sson . in 〈◊〉 ●p p. 7. Expungantur omnia 〈◊〉 sub hoc 〈◊〉 ( de Imaginibu● ) continentur . ●nd . l●br expu●●at . de 〈◊〉 Sena●u● general . I●q●isit Hi●p 〈◊〉 Madr●an● 1612. a M Bibliot● . vet . Patr. to . 9. pa●t . 1. edit . Colon. an . 1618. pa 551. b Syn●d Parisiens . de Imaginib sub Ludovi●o ●io . c N●n autem mi●un si 〈…〉 d Ha●m● in cap. 63. 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 Vsh●r , of the 〈…〉 R●ligion . f No● quod legis opera conte●●enda sunt , et absque eis simplex fides appetenda , sed ipsa opera ●ide Christi adornentur . Id. in Gal. 3. h Re verá isti soli bea●●● qui per gratiam justificantur , non ex meritis . ●●mig in Psal. 32. i [ Et salvamur ] 〈◊〉 gratiâ non nosiris me●●tis , quae quidē merita sunt nu●la . Haimo in Esai . ca. 63. k In eo autem damus illi gloriam , quo nullis praecedentibus ●onorum actuu● meritis , sed solà nos ●ju● misericordià , ad t●ntam dignitatem pervenisse sateamur . Ambr. A●sbert . in Apocalyp . lib. 8. cap. 19. Et pr●ventente gra●t● salvamur , et subsequente justificamur . Id ib. l. 10. c. 22. l Ne dicerent , Pat●es nostri suo merito pla●uerunt , ideò tant● sunt à Domino consecuti ; intu●it non meriti● datū , sed qui● ita sit Deo placitum , cuj●s est gratuitum omne quod praestat . Raban . in Ie●em . lib. 18. cap 2. m Non parum quippe ●b h●c sa●cta discre●ione deviasti cum Cle●i●os quos ad cōtinentiā conjugij 〈◊〉 d●b●bas , ad hanc ●mperi●s● quadam violenti à ●ogi voleba● . Nunquid enim merit● c●muni omnium sapientun● judi●to hae● est violenlentia , cùm contrà Evang●licam institutionem , ac S. ●p dictatim●m , ad privata aliquis dec●eta cogitur ●x●quenda ? Domirus quidem in v●te●i l●ge Sacerdoti conjugiū , constituit , quod illi post modùm interdixisse non legit●r . S. Vd alric . de celibatu 〈◊〉 inter Monum . S. Patr. Orthodoxographa p. 481. edit . à Ioan. Iac. Grynaeo Basil. an . 1569. n Prot. Apol. ● . 2. ch . 2. sect . 7. o Index lib. pro●ibit . et expurg Bern. de Sand●val 〈◊〉 R●xas ●uss● edit . Ma●r . 1612. et per Turietin . Genevae 1619. H●ldar●●o Episcopo Augu●●●●o ep●●●ola ascripta pro●ibe●tur . pag. 47. 〈◊〉 . H. p Deleatur tota Epistola V●a●rici de 〈◊〉 Cl●ri Ind expurg . H●p . Quirogae . edit . M●dr . an . 1584. in 〈◊〉 lit . O. q The honour of the married Clergie , by Dr. Hall. lib 3. sect . 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. r A●n . Sylvius de morib . German●ae . Notes for div A16161-e99850 a Sanctitas Papas dimifit , et ad Imperato●es accessit hoc tempore . Wernerus Fascic . tempor . aetate 6. circa ann . 944. p. 6● . b Nullum fuit indoctiu● et infelicius . Bell. lib. 4. de Pont. ca. 12. Seculum inselix in quo nulli Scriptore● illus●res . Id. in Chronolog . c Quae tunc facies Ecclesi● Romanae . Baron . to . 10. Annal. ann . 912. §. 8. d Prae●ari aliquid necessarium duximus , ne quid s●andali pusillus animo patiatu● , si quando videre contiger●t abomi●ationem desolationis in templo . 〈◊〉 ibid. ann . 900. §. 1. e Revelat. 20.3 . f M●steri● of iniqui●ie the 37. p●o●●●●sion . p. ●08 . g M●limores ex oe●a●t i●t 〈…〉 Dial. 〈…〉 , c●p . 26. h Smaragdus Abbas Monasterij S. Michaelis scripsit in Psalterium ●pistolas , Evangeli● . Trithem . de scriptor . eccles . i Sacra scriptura mensa nobis est , & spiritalis refectio , ad consolati●nem nobis data contrà iniraicos . Rad. Flav. in L●vit . li. 17. cap. 5. k Nam Tobias , ●udith , ●t Macab●or●m , quamvis ad instructionem Ecclesie legantur ; perfectam tamen non habe●t authoritatem . Id. in p●ae●at . in lib. 14. Levit. pag. 203. l Ael●rick of the Old Testament . pag. 17 , 22 , 23. m Quotidiè nobis haec dona praestantur , quando corpus et sanguis in Altari sumuntur . Steph. Edvens . de Sacram. Altaris . ca. ●7 . in Biblioth . Patr. Paris . 1589. edi● . 2. per Margarin de la Bigne . to . 6. p. 587 n Aelfricks Sermon on E●ster day , pag 24. editionis Ioan. Da●● . Load . o Seculum de●imum d●● tantum ag●●●vit Sacram●nta . Ioan a Munste , ●n Vor●lage nobilis discurspropos . 3. p Ael●●ick i● die S. Pas●●● . A Se●mon on ● ast●r d●y . pag. 23. q Id. ib●d . pag 12. r Id. ibid. p●● 12 , 13 , 14. s Ibid. pag. 1● . & 18. Ibid. pag. 20. u A●lfricks Sermon● , joyned with the Saxon Homily , printed at London by Iohn Day , and reprinted Ann. 1623. x Pag. 45. y Pag 51. z Non sit tamen hoc sacrificium corpus ejus in quo p●ssus est pronobis ; neque sanguis ejus quem pro nobi● effu●●t , sed spirit●alitèr corpus ejus efficitur et s●ngu●● sicut Manna . a D. ●ames of the corruption of the Fathers . part . 2. pag. 55. b d Angelus is●e non nisi Ponti●ex ille summu● missus s●ilice● à ●atre ad homines , et ab hominibus ad Patrem remissus , ut hominum caussas ●pud Patr●m peroret , Mediat●r Dei , hominumque . R●d Fl●vi●● , in Levit. lib. 2. cap. 24. e Necesse est sold fide Chris●i salva●●●redentes● Smaragd . in G●lat . cap. 3. in Catal. Test. verit . l● 11. f Non ejus beatudinis sumus ●ut m●riti , ut i● universis illi obtemperemus . Fl●viac . in L●vi●i● . lib. 20. cap 1. g Alij bon● fa●iunt non be●● , quia si●e side pla●ere D●● non p●ssunt . Id. ibid l● 15. 〈◊〉 ● . h Literae do●ent , Dominic●m imaginem expressè locutam , Clericos , co●umque fautores , con●udisse . Gu● . Malmes . de gest . Ang●● li. 2. cap. 9. & Polychron . lib. 6. cap. 12. pa. 240. i Absit ut hoc siat● absit hoc ut fiat ; judicastis benè m●t●retis non b●nè . No●● L●genda Angliae . de ● . Dunstano pag. 94. k Cl●ve , or Calne , ut Mal●●sbur . vel T●●ne . ut Hen● . Huntingd. l Sola●ium totum repen●●●um ●xibus & ●ra●ibu● dissiluit et co●●idit ; omnibus ad terram ●lisis , solus Dunstanus stans super un●m trabem quae superstes er●t , ●vasit pr●be . Gu●l M●lms . quò sup●a . m Signum scilicet Dei ex●elsi fu●t , quod proditione● et inter●ectione Regis su● , ab amo●e Dei , ●asuri essent , et a diversis gentibus ●ign● contrit●●e conterendi . Henr. Huntingd. Hist. lib. 5. pag. 357. n The honour of the m●rried Clergie . lib. 3. sect ●0 . o Di●entes , ingen● esse et miserabl●e ded●●us , ut nov●● advena veteres ●olonos migr●re compelle●et : hoc nec Deo gratum puta●● , qui veterem habitationē concessisses , ne● alicu● pr●●o homini qui fi●i idem t●●●re re posset quod alijs pre●●d●c●o acc●disse 〈◊〉 . M●lmes . quo up●● . p Sacerdotes ux●●atos à d●vino o●●i●io ●movit , novo ●xemplo , et ut mult● vi●um est , inconsi●erato ●r●●udicio● cont●à sactorum patrum sent●n●●● Math. Westmon . ad an . 10●● . q Ans●lmus A●chiep . Concilium an● Londoniam te●uit , in q●o prohib●●●uxores Sacerdot 〈◊〉 Anglorum , 〈◊〉 non prohibitas Henr. ●untingd . pa. 378. r Acts & Monuments Vol. 1. Book 3. pag 150● ad ann . 941. s P●oceribus succlamantibus prae●udioiū , quòd Clerici passi fuerant injustè . H. Huntingd. loc . citato . Optimates , Abbates cum Monachis , de Monaste●ijs , in quibus Edgorus eos locaverat expule●unt ; et Clericos● ut pri●s loco ●o●ii●i●n uxo●ibus induxe●unt ; nam unus eorum Aelferius nomi●e omnia penè Monasteria subvertit . Mat. Westmon . ad ann . 97● . t Charta R. Edgari de Oswaldeslaw extat inter epist. veterum Hibernic . apud D. lac . Vsserium . u Nova Legenda Angliae de S Dunstano pa. 90. & Polychron . lib. 6. cap. 13. pag. 241. x Legend ibid p 94. & Polychron . loc . citato . y Cithera illius absque ullo hominis ●mpulsis , Antiphona personuit . Legend . loc . citat . pag. 89. Polych●on . ibid. quò suprà . z Polychron . li. 5 cap. 26. pag. 220. a Carta Regis E●gari d● O●waldes law quo suprà . Notes for div A16161-e103000 a 〈…〉 Card. ap . ●Orth●●● . Granum in 〈◊〉 . ●e●um expe●end & 〈◊〉 p. 40. 〈…〉 Annal. 〈◊〉 li. ● p●g . ●73 . c 2 〈◊〉 2 4. d Suavis hom● sacerdotes qu● uxores habent ●●gitim●s sacr●si●os esse pe●negat ; interim tam●n ●●●●tatores , adult●ros , incest●os●s a●is admovet . Aventin . e Hildebrandus — p●lmꝰ specie religionis Antichristi Imperij fundamenta ●ecit : perditus homo ille ( que●a Antichristum vocare sol●nt ) in ●ujus fronte contumeliae nomen scriptum est , Deus sum , err●re non possum , in templo Dei sedet , longè lateque dominatur . Id. lib. 7 pag 684. f Fidelitatem facere nolui ●●●●volo : qu●a nec ego prom●si , nec antecessores m●●s ante●esso●i●us tuis id 〈◊〉 comperio D. Vsserius de eccles . success . c. 7. s●ct 9. ex Lanfranc . Epist. M S. in Biblioth . D. Rob. Cotton . g Rex allegavit , quòd n●llus Archi●● . v●l Episcopus Regni su● , Cu●ia Romanae vel Papae subess●t ; praecipu● cùm ipse omnes l●b●rtates haberet in regno suo , quas Imperator vendic●bat in Imperio . Math. P●ris . Hist. an . 1094. & Holinshead . Hist. ann . 1099. pag 24. h Nec p●o quovis negotio Romanae ●edi● au●ien●iam Appell●tu●u● . Id. ibid. i Fulbert . Episc. Ca●notens . ●laruit an . M X. T●ithem . d● s●●p eccles . k Anselm Laudunens . Sc●●last . ●cripsit Glossam I●t●rli● . que extat 〈…〉 Ordinari●●t Lyr●● . B●ll . d● scrip● eccles l 〈◊〉 M●lms●●r . de 〈◊〉 . Anglor . Ponti● . lib. 1 pag. 223. m ●ish V●her●●●t●logue ●●t●logue . n 1 Ti● . 3.15 , 10 , 1● . o Occum . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p Quae literae p●ssunt te insl●uere id est , su●fi●ien●èr ●oc●am r●dd●●● ad eternam salutem conseque●dā . A●s●lm . t●m . 2. p●g . 121. q S. Be●na●di aequalis fuit . B●lla●m . de Script . 〈◊〉 . r R●stant p●s● h●● 〈◊〉 c●●i●os S. S●ripture lib●os s●x non r●t●c●●d● lib●● ; Sa●i●nt●ae . 〈◊〉 silij Sira● , T● b●e ●ud●th , ●t ut●●que M●ca●●●rum ; qui ●tsi a● ill●m sublim●m prae●e●entium d●gnitatem perveni . ● non po●uciunt● p●opter laud . bil●m tamen ●t pernecessa●●am d●●trinam ab ●●●lesi● su ●ipt m●●uerunt . P●tr . 〈◊〉 d● authorit . V. Test. Epist. 2. advers . Petrobrus . s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theophyl . in 1. Co● . cap 11. v. 25. M. S. in A●chivis Biblioth . Bodle●anae Oxon. t Normanni mané Domini●i co●poris ●t sanguinis mu●imine saginati — Mat. P●ris . in ●araldo . u Consuetudinis est● Eucha●istiam nulli n●si intinctam da●● quod n●c ex Dominica Institutione , nec ●x sanctionibꝰ authent●●is reperitur assumptum . Hildebeit . Cenoman . Epist. 64. in Biblioth . Patr. to . 12. pag 338. Col● Agri● . 1618. x Terti on est , nosse in quo duo v●t● S●cramenta , ●l●●st Dominici c●rpori● et s●nguinu c●tinentur . 〈◊〉 e●ist . 〈◊〉 Biblioth● Pa●● . to . 3 p●● . ●35 . edit . P●●is . an 1589. y Conanu●●a faerunt ●mnibus ●udaeis Sa●●●men●a , sed non communis gra●●a : it● et nunc Baptismꝰ 〈◊〉 omnibus ●ō●unis est , ●●d non virtus Baptismi . Commune nobis om●ibus est ●●crament●m corpo●is & sangu●uis Domini , sed non co●muri● v●●tus Sacramen●● . Anselm . in 1. Cor. ●●p o. to 2. p. 170. z Que tam a●res●tand●●●e 〈…〉 temporis qu●m a● G●ll●rum his●●riam pe●tine●t . a Nis● manda●averitis in●uit ●arn●m fili●●●minis , 〈◊〉 sanguinem biber●●i● , non ●abebi●●s vitam in vobis●●a●m●s vel slagitium ●ide●ur ●●bere ; sigu●a ergo 〈…〉 . b Nota 〈…〉 1618. to●● ●● pag. 4● . c 〈…〉 15.16 . d 〈…〉 Lords Supp●r . 〈…〉 〈…〉 6. f Exere palatum fidei , dilata fauces sp●i , vis●●r● charitatis extende , et sume panem vitae , interioris hominis alimentum . Fulb●●● . Episc. in Bibl●oth . S. Pat. Paris . 1589. ●o . 3. col . 640. in Epist. ad Adeodat . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theop●ylact in Ioan. cap. 6 v. 54 pag 654. Qui manducat me vivit propter me , dum quodammodò miscetur mihi , e● transelementatur in me . Theophylact. ibid. * Theophylactu● di●it panem transmuta●i in carnem Domini . Theophyl . i● cap. 26. Math. & in cap 6. Ioan Bellar. li. 2. de Euchar . cap. 34 §. Sed. g Fuisse in pretio hac tempestate constat et Odi ●onem Abb●t . C●uniac & B●rengarium Turonens vi●os s●nct●●●te & doctri●à in●igne● Plat in Ioan. 1● . h Liberalium artium , et a●●lius 〈◊〉 p●ritia 〈◊〉 Sig●be●t . Gembl●●● de ●llustr . ●ccles . S●●ptor cap. 155. i G●l● Malms●ur . de 〈…〉 . ●ngl . lib. 3. p●g . 113 & 114. k Duvalius ●it Amalarium unà cùm Ioanne Scoto fuisse Berengarij p●aecursores . Andr. Duvalius in notis ad Flor. in Psal. 80. teste D Iacob . Vsserio in Gotteschalco . cap 8. l Iacob . Vsser . de Christian . eccles . suc●essione ca. 7. nu . 26. m Vndè contrà eum multùm à multis et verbis & scriptis dispuratum est . Sigebert . Gemblac● Chron. ad an . 1051. Par. 1583. n Vndè contrà ●um , & pro ●o , multùm à multis , et verbis et scriptis disputatum est . Sigebe●t . Chron. à Miraeo edit . Antu●rp . ann . 1608. & apud Surium to . 2. vit . Sanctor . April . 22. Colon. 1521. o Quid●m ve●ò coecitate nimia et longà perculsi , ●iguram tantum , substantiale illud corpus esse conabantur as●ruere Concilior . tom 3. edit . à Binnio . p●●t 2 p. 1286. p Berenga●ius Turon●ns . in haeret●●● p●olapsus pravitatem omnes Gallos , Ital●s , et Anglos , suis ●àm penè cor●uperat pravitatibus . M●th . Westmon . ad a●● . 1087. q Parsons in his three Conv●rs . p●rt . 1. chap. 10. nu . 21. r ●eo 9 Victor . 2. Nicol 2. Gr●gor . ● . s ●go Be●●nganus — p●osi●●●r me ●●n●r● , pan●m & vinum quae in Alta●● ponuntur , p●st Conse●ration●m non s●l●●m Sa●ram●ntum s●d●●●●m ●●rum ●●rp●s , & s●●guin●m D●mini nos●●i Ie●u Chris●i e●●e , & 〈…〉 sacram●●to , 〈…〉 ●●ni●●s Sa●●rd●tum , trac●ari , ●ia●g● , & sid●lium dertibus atte●i . Gratian. d● Conse●rat . D●●● . 2. ca. Ego B●r●ng●● . t Dec●et Gratiani Greg. 13. jussu edit . Par. 1585. u Nist sinè intell●ga●●●ròa Berengarij in majo●●●m in●ides ●aeresin quàm ipse hab●it , & ideò omnia ●e●eras ad species i●sas , G●o●●● apud Gr●tian . D●c●e● . 3 part . de Conse . D●●t ● . ca. Ego B●reng . x Nu●●e ●unt exac●iores formul● loquendi , in 〈…〉 , quàm ●ae 〈◊〉 ●●●nturij qui 〈◊〉 a●jurant . Bellar. li. 〈◊〉 nag . c● . 21. § 〈◊〉 . B●r●●ga●us ipse prae 〈…〉 mortis lib●os à 〈…〉 ignem proj●●it . ●●pyr . M●ss●n . An●al . ● 235.236 . 〈◊〉 Sco●● liber d● 〈…〉 est 〈…〉 Con●il . ve●c●l●●●se apud ●innium ●o . 3. z Ad vomi●●● 〈…〉 no● 〈…〉 . Nam in 〈…〉 . ●ert . Constantiens . Presb. ad ann . 1083. in Append. ad Herman . Chron. p. 352. a Be●engarius planè quāvi● ipse sententiā correxerit ; omnes tamen , quos ex totis terris depravaverat , convertere nequivit . Malmesbur . de gest . Anglor . lib. 3. pag. 114. b Anselm . Laudun . u●riusque Testamenti scriptura● glosà Interlineali et Marginali ex Patrum scriptis explanavit . Tri●hem . de Scriptor . Eccles. c Glossa Inter●in . in Deut. cap. 4. d Respondeo magnā quidem esse qua●tionē ; utr●m , vel quatenùs , vel quomodè ea qu●e circ● nos aguntur noverint spiritus mortuorū . Aug. in Psa. 108. ●n●●rat . 1 e Et tam●n generalitèr orantibus pro indigenti● supplican●tum A●gust . de c●●a pro mo●t . cap. 16. f Augustinus dicit ; qui● mortui nesciunt , eti● sancti quid agant vivi , etiam eorum silij . Glossa Interlin . in Es●iae . 63. g Si tanti Patriarchae quid ergà populum ex his pro●r●atū ageretur , ignorav●runt ; quomodo mortu● vivorū●●bus atque actibus cognos●●ndis adjuvandisque misc●ntur . Au● . ibid. c. 13. h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theophyl . in 1. ●p . ad Th●ss cap. 3. M S● Cir. in Arc●ivis Biblieth . 〈◊〉 O●on . i Se● the ●i●th Age , Of prayer to Saints . k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theophyl in Math. cap 15. l Holinshead . Hist. ad ann 1100. pag. 27. m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theophyl . in 3. c. ep ad Gal. M S. in Bibl●och Bo●l Oxon. n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id ibid. o C●rt●●olà fide Abrah●m ●●rtur Deo plac●●sse . Ans●lm● de excellentiâ B. V●● . Mar. c. 3 p. 241. — 〈◊〉 sol●●ide , et grati● accip●●●● remissionem peccato●um Id in 1 Cor. cap. 1. to . 2. pag. 121. p Test● enim Augustin● , ●olam gratiam suam cororat in nobi● Deꝰ Radulph Ar●ens Do●ini●● 18 post 〈◊〉 . Homil. 1. q Nihil enim aliud quàm grat●● 〈◊〉 ●oronat i● no●is D●us ; q●i si v●ll●t in 〈◊〉 agerè district● , non ●u●ti●icaretur in consp●ctu 〈…〉 Apos●●lus qui plu●●mnibus l●b ra●it di●it ; ●xistimo quo● n●n u●t ●●digne pa●si 〈…〉 que revelabitur in nobis ; 〈…〉 R●d A●dens Domi●●● . in S●ptu●ge● . Hō 2. r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Oecumen . in Rom. 8.18 . s Si homo mille annis servir●t Deo , etiam ●erv●n●●ssimè ; non meritur ex condigno , dimidiam diem ●ss● in regno coe●o●um Anselm● de mensurat . C●ucis . pag. 188. Colon. 1612. t Sed ●t Anselmus Archiep . Cantuar. Inter●ogationes quasdam praescripsisse dicitur infirmis in extr●mis cons●●●u●is . Hosi●s in Confessione Pe●icoviensi . cap. 73. u ●●edis te ●on poss● nisi per mortem ●hristi serva●i ? respon●et infi●mus● eti●m tùm illi dic●tur age ergo d●m superest in te anima in ●ac sola mort● fiduciam 〈◊〉 constitue , in null● 〈◊〉 fidu●iam ha●e ●u●● morti te totum committe , ●a● solà ●e totum ●●t●g● . Si dixerit tibi q●òd meru●sti damnationem , d● ; Domine mort●m 〈◊〉 I●su Christi obtendo in●er me , ●t mala merita mea , ips●●sque m●ritum offero pro me●●to , quod ego debuiss●m hab●re n●c habeo . Id. ibid. x Ex libro qui ins●●ibitur Ordo Baptizand● cùm modo visitādi impr●sso Vene●ijs anno 1575 ; è ●olio 34. pau●o post m●dium ; Deleant●● illa verba : Credis quod D. noster ●esus Christus pro nost●a salute mortuus sit● et quòd ●x p●oprijs meri●is , vel al●o modo null possit salvari , nisi merito p●ss●onis ejus ? Ind. Expurgat . per Quirog . Mad●it . 1584. y Bishop Vsher● Answer to the Iesuite . Title of Merits . pa. 569. Notes for div A16161-e108070 a Turstanus à Papa consecratur , quod ut Regi Anglorum innotuit , omnem ci locum su●e dominationi● interdixit . Math. Paris . ad an . 1119. in Histor. majore . b Huic controversiae praestitit ●ccasionem Philip. de Broc . Cano●●cu● Bedford , qui tractus in causam propter Homici●ium , in R●gis Iusticiarium verbum protulit contumeliosum . id . ibid. in Henr. 2 a● An 1164. c ● Iu●icibus intim●tum ●st , quod multa contrà disciplinam publicam , scilic●● furt● , rapinae , homicidia à Clericis s●epius committerentur , ad quos scilicet Laicae non posset Iurisdictionis vigor extendi . Gul Nubrigens . ●ib . 2. Cap. 16. p. 137. Rege , ma●efactore●● si●e d●l●ctu exterminari jub●●ti . Gul. Nov●burg . quo supra . Rex v●lebat Presbiteros , & alios ecclesie R●●●●res si c●●pre●e●si fu●ssent in la●r● cia●o , vel murdra , vel felo●id , vel in hi●● similibu , d●ce●e ad Secularia examina● & pu●ire , sicu● & La●cum . contr● quod Arch●episcop●● du●h●t &c. Rog Houeden . Annal. part . po●ter . & Nubrig . ad an . 1164. Ap●d Clarend●● facta est Recognitio consuetudinum & libertatum antecess●●um s●orum , Regis Hen●ici ●vi sui . Math. Paris . ad an 1164. Bellarm. de Romano Pontifice lib. 2. cap. 21. h V●●●t alter Augustin●s . Trithem , de Script . ●celes . i Scio autem & propheti● d●no d●●atum fuisse passu● per●rebuisse . Possevin . in Apparatu . to . 1 pag. 807. k Propter ●●uditionem & vita honestatem ap●d principes & episcopos in ●●ecio habitus . Tri●hem . l Petrus Lombardus 5. Sanctae philosophiae verit●●tem , fontemque purissimum caeno quaestionum , rivulis opinionum conturbav●● . Aventi● . Annal. lib. 6. m A qu●bus●●am praedicatur in populis hos tr●s fuisse german●s ex adulteri●●ato● — de hoc tamen doleas , quod non potes dolere , author vitae Gratiani in fine operum ejus . n Cog●omento Comestor , quod Script●ra●um aut●o●t●t●s in suis op●s●ulis ●r●o●ius allegando , quasi ●● v●n●●em memo●ie man●u●iri● . T●ithem . de Sc●iptor . Eccles●●● . P●●us ●r●w quem P●tia●● g●● , 〈◊〉 Come●●or , Nunc 〈◊〉 — Si●●t ●nim diceb●tur ● 〈◊〉 Roma●● Ecc●●si● , 〈…〉 M. 15. 〈…〉 Colon. 1622. 〈…〉 p. 4●4 . Pr●p●●●●e 〈…〉 & de medio Babylonis 〈…〉 Epist , 25. p. 52. r I●u●os eos , sed par●● profectures respondit — nimis verus vates Ioachimus extitit . Paul. A●myl . in Philip. 2. lib. 6. p. 175. s Explicans ( Ioachim ) haec verba Apocalyp . unus illorum nondum venit , scilicet Antichristus , de isto Antichristo dicit idem Ioachim ; quod jam na●us ●st in c●vitate Romaná & in sede Apostolica sublim●●itur . Roger Ho●ed Annal . part . poster . in Rich. 1. p. 681. t Three conversions of England . part . 1. chapt . 10. nu . 22. * Martin Luther . u Hildegardis Prophetia exta● apud Albert. Staden sem post ann . 1149. a pag. 169. ad 178. as is witnessed by Doctor Crakanthorpe in his treatise of the Popes tempo●all Monarchie . x Tunc Insula Apostolici honoris dividetur , quia nulla religio in Apostolico ordine inve●ietur . Hildegard . in C●tal , test . ver●● . lib. 15. y The prophecy of Hildegard the Nunne . z Secte autem illius origi●●● p●ul● alt●us ●epetam ; P●t●●● cognoment●●●●sus , 〈…〉 Co●●●icorpus non e●●e , preces ad Deum pro 〈…〉 ●ocu●sset 〈◊〉 atque ig●e ●r●matus 〈…〉 Annal. Franc. in Philippo A●●●usto . p. 268. a 〈…〉 bapti●amus infantes , quod ●●●mus ●●● mortuis , quod sanc●●●um 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bernard . in Cant ●●●m . 6● . b Bern. epist. 24● . c 〈…〉 & 〈…〉 Apologet. c●p . 7 d 〈◊〉 sunt ●abitas ●● 〈◊〉 , qui boni videri , non esse ; ●●li non videre , sed esse volunt . Bern. in Cant. serm . 66. e Non modò patientes sed & 〈◊〉 , ut videbatur duceren●r ●d mortem . id . ibid. f Petr. Clumacens . lib. 1. epist. 1. & 2. g Sed quia eum ita sentire vel praedicare nondum mihi plenè fides facta est , disser● r●spensionem ; quousque & horum qu●e d●cuntur indubi●m habeam certitudinem . id . epist. 1. h Basilicae sine plebibus , pleb●s sine Sacerdote , Sacerdotes sine debitâ reverentià sunt . Bern. in ep . 240. i Bernardi Epistola 24● . ad Hildefons . Comit. S. Aegidij . k Fef●llisse priores , errare posteros . id . ibid. l Circa annum Domini 1160 ortus ●st Petrus Waldus . Iacob . Gr●tser . Prolegom . in script . edit . contr . Waldenses . m Cun. a●●em esset aliquantuluns ●●tera●●s , Novi Testame●ts t●xtum docuit cos vulgariter . Rain●rius contr . H●r●t . cap. 5. quam●co●●starum ●co●●starum : & hoc 〈◊〉 de causis , p●ima est qui● e●t Di●tur●ior , aliqui e●●●m dicunt , quod d●●auit à ●●mpore Syluestri ; aliqui à t●mpore Apostol●rum . Se●●●ula , quiaest G●neralior , ●●re enim nulla est terra , i● qua haec secta non sit . Ter●ia , quia ●um omnes aliae secte imman●ate blasphemta●um in Deum , audientib●●●●●rorem inducunt , h●c magnam ●●bet speciem pretat● , 〈◊〉 coram homnibus iuste 〈◊〉 , & bene omnia de 〈◊〉 cred●nt , & omnes 〈◊〉 qui in Symbolo con●●●●tor ; solu●mo●o Roma●●● Eccles●● blasphemant & ●l●rum , cui mult● t●d● 〈◊〉 ●acili● est ad 〈◊〉 . Rame● . contr . 〈◊〉 . c. 4. Pars●ns three Conve●sions part 2. chap. 10 , § 26 , 27 , ●nd ibid. the third part . chap. 3 , numb . 12. p D. Iacob . Vesserius de Christian. eccl●s . succes●ions & statu . cap. 6. § 20. ad finem . The History of the Waldenses , booke 1 chap. 4. Master Cade● Iustification of the Church of England . lib. 2. cap. 1. sect . 3. § 4. The first Article● q Marke 14.56 . r No●nihil etiam ad Valdensium con●ir●andam tolerandamque sectam consert , quod praeter haec ( quae contrà fidem r●ligionemque nostram assumu●t , in reliquis ●erme puriorem quam caeteri Christiani vitam agunt ; non enim ni●i coacti iurant , ●aroque nomen Dei in vanum pros●runt , promissaque sua bon●fide imp●ent Claud. Seissel advers . sectam Valdens . pag 9. s T●m Rex ; ●tiamsi , inquit , 〈◊〉 Turc●m aut d●abolum bell●m suscipiendum esset , eoc tamen p●ius a●dire vell●m Wese●be●ij oratio de ●aldens . pag. 418. ●xtat in Ioach. Ca●●r●●ij Historie narratione de Frat●●●● ort●odexo●●m ecclesijs in Bohemi● &c. t 〈◊〉 ad Regem re●erunt , ill● i● locis homines baptizari . Articulos fidei & Decalogum doceri . Dominicos d●● religiose coli , Dei ver bum exponi , venes●i● & s●upra apud ●os rulla esse . Hic au●itis Rex 〈◊〉 ●●urando addito : me , inquit , & caetero populo me● Cat●olico m●●●ores 〈◊〉 viri sunt . 〈◊〉 . in orat . de Valdens . ap●d Ioach. Camerar . pag. 419. u C●terum se in ipsorum templis , neque Imagines , n●que or●●m●nt● 〈◊〉 ulla 〈◊〉 . ibid. x Tertulli●n in Apologet. cap. 7. and 〈◊〉 his wi●ked Or●●ion in Minutius Felix hi● Octavius . The 2 and 3 Articles objected . y In their booke entituled , the Spirituall Almanacke , in the third C●mment . cited by the History of the W●ldens●s , booke 1. chap 4. z In their booke entituled , the Light of the treasure of faith fol. 214. cited ibid. a Salutationem Angelicam ad Dei genitricem fidelibus frequent●ndam ●on c●nse●t , quasi i●a orationis forma● non habeat , sed salutationis● Claud. Seissel . c. Sectam . Vald. pag. 54. b Reinerius in Su●●a de Catharis & Leonistis . c So they professe in their Answer : Ad literam Augustini Olmucensis , Anno 1508. et pleni●s in scripto edito 1572. d Mendicantium Religionem malos D●●mones invenisse . Aeneas Silvius Histor. Bohem. Cap. 35. e Monasticam vitam Ecc●●siae sentinam a● Plutonium esse : vana illius vot● , nec nisi saedis pu●ror●ma●●ribus servi●ntia . Thuan. Histor. Lib. 6. ad An. 1550. p. 513. Apu●●ull●●m ali●m ex his qui Valdensium errores 〈◊〉 , inveni● u●●am de ha●●e sac●am mentionem . Alphonsus de Castro lib 6. ad● . Haer●se● . tit . de Eucharist . ● Nova●●● . g A●n . Sylvius Hist. B●h●m . cap. 35. h Alphons . de castro lib 6. a●u . Ha●r . ● tertia Haer. tit . de ●uchar . The 10. 〈◊〉 obj●cted . i Du● credebant cum Mani●●●ais principia , Deum viz. bonu● & malum , ●d est Dia●●lum , quem dicebant omnia ●●eare corpora , sicut Deum 〈◊〉 omnes animas● Corporum Resurrectionem nega●●●● . ●ullum in●ernum pu●antes Prateol . l. 1. Ele●ch . Haere● . li● A. Albigens . k Confessio Fratrum Waldensium ad Vladi●●aum Hungariae Regem ●issa● extat in Fa●●iculo re●um exp●tend & ●ugiend p. 85. l Quicunq●e h●i● potesta●● resistit , Dei ordinationi r●●ist●t , ni●i duo ( ●uut Manicheus ) ●i●git esse principi● . De Maj●rit . & obed . Ca●● Vnam Sanctam . m In the book of the Treasure of Faith , the second Article ●●ted by the History of the Waldeuses , booke 1. chap. 4. p. 19. n Or●●s est conflictus de C●tho●ici nomine & Donatist●rum & C●●ili●●ist●rum . Augustin . Bru●●cul . Collation . cum Donatist . cap. 4. Tom. 7. Non multum alicub● dissentit ab i●● q●● vu●go tradun●ur à quibusda● ut ab illi● accepisse videri posi●nt . Or●●uin . Gr●ti●s in Fas●is rerum expetende● & fugiend . de professione Fratrum Waldenstum . p Doctrinam suam , o● c● qua● bodie Protestantes ample●●untur parum different●m , non per Gallam sol●m tot●m● sed ●●iam p●●●●nnes penè Europae oras dissem●ârunt . Popliner Hist. Fr●n● . L●b . 1. fol. 7. b. edit . Anno 1581. q Iewels Apology . cap. 7 〈◊〉 . 3. r B. Iewell ibid. s 〈◊〉 . ●ap . 2. Divis. 1 t Harum ●riminatio●●● quibus crebrò culpamu● , nihil consci● sumus . Fasci● rerum expetend . et fugiend . p. 85● u His praecipuis ●● c●rtis e●rum doctrinae capitibus ●li● officta de Conjug●● , resurrectione , animae fl●t● post mortem , & de cibis . Thuan. Hist. sui temporis . Ad an . 1550. l. 6. pag. 513 Et bien qui●'s ●ussent des mauvaises opinions , ●i est●a qu● elles ne suscit●r●●t pastant la haine du P●pe , & des grands Princes , & des E●clesiastiques , c●ntre ●ux , que fut l● libertie du la●gage . Ce ●u●●e principal point qui lesmit e● haine universalle , & qui les charg●● de plus de meschan●e● 〈◊〉 , qu●l● n'en avoient . Bern. de Girard . l● Histoire de France so●bs Philippe 2. Liure 10 p. 511. y Romanum Praesulem r●liquis 〈◊〉 parem ●sse . Purgatorium ignem rullum in●em●i : vanum esse ora●e pro mortuis , & avaritiae sacerdotali● inv●nt●m . Dei & Sanctorum imagines delendas . Confirm●tion em & extr●mam unctionem inter Ec●lesi ●sacramenta minim● contiuer● . Suffragia Sanctorii f●ustrà imp●trari , quae 〈◊〉 non possunt . Auricu●a●em Confessionem ●●ga●●m esse . 〈◊〉 ab Ecclesi● institu●is , nihi inesse mer●●i● In Canonicis ho●is cantandis discendisque t●mpus 〈◊〉 t●ri . A●n . Sylv. Hist. Bo●em cap. 35. z Bret●lye● Apol. tract . 2. chap. 2. sect . 3. Ruffinus Ecc●es . Hist l. 1. ●●p . 9. b Albingenses constituerunt sibi Antipapam in finibus Bulgar . Cro●tiae & Dalmati●e , nomine Bartholomaeum ; in quibus partibus error i●●e ●deò inval●it , ut etiam Episcopos , & alios multos regionum illarum ad suam adduxerint pravitatem . — ipse creat Episc●p●s , & Ecclesias perfide ordi●are co●tendi● . Math. Paris ad●n ●n . 1223. c Valdo , quia Idiota erat , al●q●o● libros in linguam vulgarem sibi feci● transferri● quos lege●● , & non in●ellig●●s , in pestilentissim●s l●psus est error s. Alphons . a Castro de justa Haere● . pun●●ione . l. 3. c. 6. d C●● esset aliquantulum literatus , Novi Testam●nti text● docuit ●os vulga●iter . Re●er . c. Haeret. cap. 5. e Inquisitioni & examination● haereticorum f●eq●●nt●r inter●ui , & computatae sunt Scholae Haereticorum in Dioc●si Pataviensi 40. Id. ibid cap. 3. f Iac. Vs●er . de Eccles. suc●●●ione & statu . cap. 1● . §● 1. ●istory of the Albigenses l. primo . cap 2. g Non ●●im disceptationi●us verborum tantum , verum etiam ar●●is opus ●uit . Pla●ina in Innocent . 3. — sed ●um parum câ ratione pro●i●●re ●i●i videretur Domini●●s , domin●●o gladio posito , ferr●um stri●xit . Thuan. ●istor . ad an 1550. h Car les Francois , Espagnols , Anglois , Escossois , Italiens , Alemans , Boemiens , Saxons , Polonois , Lithuaniens , & autres peuples l'ont opinastrement defender iusques ●icy . L'histoire de France , Liure 1. p. 7. b. de l' imprimerie pac Abraham H. 1581. History of the Waldenses booke 2. chap. 2. Carciter cen●um milli● a●ma●or●● in 〈◊〉 adversus S●mo●●in consti●isse ●er●t . P. Aemil. de gest . Franc. L●b . 6 〈◊〉 feirent tous ensemble ( a ce qu●on dit ) un● arm●e ●● env●on cent mille homme● . N●● . Vi●●●er del'Hist●●● del● Eglile en la●nec 1612. pag. 4●● . 〈◊〉 Lact●●● . 3. uni●ers●●e co●tra Cath●ros , q●●s Walden●es & Albigenses 〈◊〉 ap●ell●nt . Binuius in Con●●l ibi● . m Ordo Cru●i●erorum dici●●r confirmatas ● Caelestin●● . A●no 1197. Bellarm in Ch●onol . n ●●ter●s Papae longè lat●que 〈◊〉 peccatorum ●emissione . & pae●it●ntiarum abso 〈…〉 . Chron●● . 〈◊〉 A●t●ssiodor ad ●n . 120● . o Innocent . Epist. Decretal . Lib. 1. pag 56. p Nic. Eymerici Directorium Inquisitor . cum Scholij● Fr. Peguae . Romae . 1578. q Innocent . Dec●etal . epist. p. 57. Catalog . Testium ve●it . Lib. 15. r Sub Anathemate prohibentur ne qui●●os in domibus vel in terra sua tenere , vel sovere , vel negotiationem cu●cis exercere pr●sumat . Gul. Nouoburg . Hist. Angl. lib. 3. cap. 3. pag 217. & l. 2. cap. 13. pag. 126 , &c. s Ex quibus quadringenti combus●● sunt in igne ; cateri patibulis appensi . Caesarius Hist. lib 5. cap. 21. t Nec mulieribus abstinuere Pontificij Legati . Thuan . ad An. 1550. lib. 6. pag 515. u Qui omnes s● mutu●●ohor●antes , ro●um accensum u●tronei sub e●unt . Altissiodorens . pag. 106. a. obst●puerunt videntes . ibid. x De leur parti estoient le Contes de Tholouse , de Cominge , de Bigorte , et de Carmain , & Mesm●s l● Roy d' Arragon . Bern. de Girard du Haillan . 〈◊〉 10 y Gul Armo●ican . Philippidos . Lib. 8. teste D. Iac. Vsserio de Eccles. successione & statu . cap. 10. nu . 31. Iud●●● 20. Simon Comes m●ntis sor●is , a●te portam 〈◊〉 ( Tolosae ) l●pi●● de Peti●rio em●sso , in capite per●●ss●s , sub●●o expiravit . Math. Paris . H●● . ad an . ●●19 . b Chassagmon . l. 4. c. 11. cited by the history o● the Albing●●ses , booke 2 Ch 2 c 〈…〉 interfectis . & in 〈…〉 & 〈…〉 , plus quam 〈…〉 . Math. P●●is 〈◊〉 ad an . 1226. d Hist. of the A●bingens . booke 1. Chap. 3. e Hi●● . of the Albig . booke 1. Cap. 8. f Math. Paris ad An. 1226 H●●t . m●●or . g A●●irmans cum ●●ramento , se non ob 〈◊〉 obsi●io●em protraxisse , nisi ut sal●tem qu. creret animarum . Id ibid. h V●debatur enim multis abusi● , ut homi●●m fidel●m Christianum in●estarent , c●● co●staret , multi● precibus persu●si●se Legato , ut veniret ad singulas terrae suae civitates , inquirens à singulis arti●●●et fidei . Id. ibid. i Pro se autem ipso obtulit , si Legatu● vellet , etiam fidei examen subire . Hae● omnia Legatus contemp ●it● nec potuit Cones Catholicus gratiam inve●ire , nisi pro se & haeredibus suis , haer●ditat●m su●m deserens , abjurare● . Id. ibid. k Vincent . Bellona●es . in speculo Historiali . lib. 29. cap. 103. & 105. l Lucius P. utramqui sectam damnaverat , ( Humiliatorum & pauperum à Lugduno ) tolli tamen non poterant . Paul. Aemil. lib. 6. de gest . Franc. p 191.192 . m Le manuscript de● miserabiles Albigeo●s ad●ouste , que comme le Pape vouloit continuer la persecution contre eux — & s●aprest●it à no●elle recherche pour en exterm●n●r les r●stes : Lovis ne les voulut su●●ri● , disant qu● ille● falloit persuader par ●araison , & noales contraindre par la force . Don● il avi●t que beaucoup de familles ont es●e conservees ●nces provinces là . I●han de Serres l'Inventaire in Ludovio . 9. ad An. 1227. tom . 1. p. 505 506. n Cum huc ●llac ab eo tempor 〈◊〉 ubi● exagitarentur , tamen extilere s●mper ●er 〈◊〉 , qui eorum doctrinam 〈…〉 , Ioannes Viclevus 〈…〉 Boh●mia . I● . 〈…〉 pag. 515. o p q r ●i pr●prie app●li●●tur 〈…〉 , qu●e dicim●s nostra , spei quidem s●minaria su●t — via r●gni , non caus● regnandi . Id. de grat & lib. arb . s Nunquid justitias meas cantabo ? Domine , memora●or ●ustitiae tuae solius . Ipsa est enim & mea — no● est pallium breve quod non possit ope●i●e duos ; — & te pariter , & me operiet largit●r larga & ae erna justitia . Bern. sup Cant. Serm. 61. t Loqu●nte me ●oram aliquando , & Dei in me gratiam commend ●●t● , quòd scilìcet . ab ipsa me in bono & praventum ●gnoscerem , & provehi sentirem , & sperarem per●iciendum . Quid tu ergò , ait unus ex circumstantibus opera●is ? aut quid m●rcédis speras , si totum facit Deus . Bern. de grat . & lib. arb . in 〈◊〉 . u Non partim gratia , partim liberum a●bitrium — sed ut totum in illo , sic totum ex illa . Id de grat & lib. arb . x Cum ●ec millesim●e , imo nec minimae par●i , debitorum suorum valeat respondere . Id serm , de quadruplici debito . y Nec latuit praeceptorem praecepti pondus , ●ominum excedere vi●es ; sed judicavit utile ex hoc ips● sua illos insufficientiae admoneri — ergo mandando impossibilia , non pr●v●ricatores homines ●ecit , sed humiles , ut omne o● obsti●atur — accipientes quippe mandatum , & sentientès defectum , clamamus in coelum , & miserebitur nostri Deus . Bern. sup . Cant. ser. 50. z Proptereà mandata sua ma●d●vit custod●re nimi● , ut vi●entes imp●r●ectionem nost●●m def●●ere , & non posse 〈◊〉 quo● de●et , ●ugi●mus ad 〈◊〉 . Ber. serm . 2 vigil nativ . ●om . a H●c est te 〈◊〉 quod 〈◊〉 in corde nostro Spirit 〈◊〉 sanctus , dicens , Dim●s●a sunt tib● peccata 〈◊〉 . Id. S●rm . 1. in . ●●nunciat . b 〈…〉 P●alm . Q●i 〈…〉 1 c Hoc to●um 〈◊〉 m●ritum , 〈…〉 spem suam 〈…〉 eo qui totum ●ominem 〈…〉 . ibi● serm . 15. d 〈…〉 hominum merita ut 〈…〉 ex ●ure ; aut 〈…〉 serm . 1. M●um prouide meritum , mis●ratio Domini . Non 〈…〉 sum 〈…〉 sum . Id. in Cant. 〈◊〉 61. f ●ateor non sum dignus ego : nec proprijs possum meritis 〈◊〉 obtiner● c●lorum , 〈◊〉 duplici jure illud obtine●● Domin●s meus , hareditate scilicet Patris , & m●rito passin●is ; alt●ro ipse contentur , alterum mi●i donat . Bernardus moriens . ut est in ejus vita . lib. 1. cap. 12. g ●a●em ●aro nobis , 〈…〉 〈◊〉 . &c. Q●id est m●ndu●a●● ejus 〈◊〉 , & ●ib re sanguin●m nisi 〈◊〉 p●●sionibus 〈◊〉 . Id Psal Qui habitat . s●r . 3. h Ser. in coena Dom. Vt illa p●●ë 〈◊〉 victima viver●t in memo●i● ut praet●●ite mo●tis hab●atur memoria . Se●m i● C●na Dom. Longe di●●at a stylo Bernardi . B●llar . de scriptor . Eccl●s se●ul 12. l 〈…〉 suum t●ne●e , & alijs dando p●r●ige●e . S●r. in ●●●na Dom. Deum suum manu & ore 〈◊〉 , & colloquentem sinijp●is aud turi . Id ibid. m Illo praesertim Con ilio , in quo no● hominum trad●tiones obstinat●●s desensantur , sed diligenter inqu●ri●ur quae sit voluntas Dei bona & beneplac●n● & per●ecta . Bern. Ep. 91. n Verbum Dei omnia in omnibus . Id. de ●tilit●te Verbi Dei Et sup . Ca●t . ser. 86. o G●nus illud peccati quod toties conturbat no● , ( concupiscent●as loquor & desideria ma●a ) ●eprimi quidem deb●t . de A●ventu . serm . 6 Serm● de sacro A●tari , & ablut . pedum ; & serm . alio de coena Dom. q Epist. 174. r Religionis antiquae non sotum ●●●tutem amisimus , sed nec spe●i●m r●tin●mus . Apo●ogia ad Guli●lin . Abba● . s 1. Corinth . 3 , 11. t Bernard● Epist. 91 : u I●em de utilitate verbi & super C●nt . serm . 86. x 〈◊〉 tan●um quae vel in vete●● vel in novo Testam●nto sunt ●ons●r●ta , u●i ad literam j●cent , abs●●lla s●na interpretatione ad●●ttuat . Claud. Scys●●l . adv . seclam Walden . pag. 4. y Res●ant pos● hos authentic●s sanctae Scripturae libros , se● non 〈◊〉 lib●i . Pet. Clu●●ac . de aut●orit . v●t . Te●●am . Epist. c. P●tro Brusian . z Suat praeterea alij quidem libri ut Sapientia Salomonis . libe● Ie●u filij Syrach & Tob. & libri Machab qui leguntur ●uidem . sed non scri●●●tur in Cano●● . H●go de S. Vi●● . praen●tat . Elucidat . de s●●ip . & Sc●iptor . Sacris , ●ap . 6. & cap. 7. Dr. Iames of the Fathers corruption . Part. 2. p. 74. b Ideo duabus speciebus sumit●r , ut significetur hujus Sacramenti duplex effectus ; valet enim ad tuition●● corporis & 〈◊〉 . Hugo de S. Vict tom . 5. cap. 6. c Gratian. de Consecrat . dist . 2. d De sacrame●to corporis & sanguinis sui ne●o est qui nes●iat ●anc quoque tan●am & tam singularem al●moniam ●● pri●um die ex●ibitam , ea die commendatam & mandatam deinc●ps ●requentari . Bern. s●rm . 3. in ramis Palmarum . Nec temeré quemquam reperias ante Petrum Lombardum , qui certum a●iquem & de●initum Sacramentorum numcrum statuerant : & de his septem non omn●s quidem Scholastici aequè proprié Sacramenta vocabant . Cassand . Consult . art . 13. f In hoc c●rtè controversia nulla est , duo esse praecip●a s●lutis nostrae Sacramenta , quomodo l●quuntur Robertus Tuitiensis , & Hugo d● S. v●ctore , part . octavd c. 2. de Sacramentis . Cassander ibid . g sanguinis●ucharistia ●ucharistia . Rupert● de victoria Verbi . ● . 12. c. 11. Notimbergae . 1525. h Sicut ergo coelestis paxis , qui Chri●ti 〈◊〉 est , suo modo vocatu● corpus C●rist● , cum revera sit 〈◊〉 ●orporis C●ri●●i — 〈…〉 ●arnis quae 〈…〉 3. D● Cons●●rat . Dist. 2. i 〈◊〉 sa●ramentum , qu●d 〈…〉 Christi 〈…〉 s●d 〈…〉 corpus Coristi , 〈◊〉 signi●i●atu● . Gloss. D●●r●t . de Cons●●rat . Dist. 2 verbo , C●●lestis . k Dr. Featlyes conference with Mr. Musket . April● 21. 1621. l Sunt nonnulli , imò forsan mul●i , sed vix notari possun● qui cum damnato Berengario i●em senti●●t , & tamen ●undem cum Ecclesia damnant — Illud quoque maximé derident , quod panis & vini species quidam dicunt in a●re apparere , quidam ver● s●nsus corporeos falli , post conversionem panis & vini i● carnem & sanguin●m Christi Zachar. Episc. Chrysopol . Comment . in Evangel . Montessar . l. 4. c. 156. m Hoc loco silendum non est , malè quosdam ignotos , sed absconditi nominis homines opi●ari , suis quo●que de●endere dictis & scriptis● panem verum & potum , quem in sancto Altari sum●●●●● nihilomin●s Patr●s ill●s manducasse ●un● tempo●is & ●i●isse — huic erro●i pro maximo ●rgumento ad●ib●nt authoritatem Apostoli 1 C●r . 10 3.4 . — Igitur eadem que ●●ctenus in Ec●l●sia tole●atur discord●ntium & con●rad●●enta●● permixtio . Rup●rt . lib. 6. in commentar . in Io●an . cap. 6. — & in lib● 7. n At ●andem inter se , non nobiscum ●andem . Bellar. lib. 1. de euchar . cap. 14. § Quia . ●piritalem u●ique●andem , 〈◊〉 , corpo●alem alteram ; qu●a illi 〈◊〉 nos aliud ● idem signi●i●avit virtute spiritali Aug. tract● 26. i● Io●n . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nicet . Ch●●●at . Anal● l. 2. ●●ror●s Waldensium cir●a Imagines Cla●d . Seys●● . c● sect Valdens . p. ●5 . r Bell●● . d● Reliq . Sanct. l. ● . c. 6 § post . De mortu●s autem quaeritur , utrum 〈…〉 vivis ●●runtur ; 〈◊〉 ex pers●●a pop●li 〈…〉 ● Abraham pater uester ●●s●rvit nos . De●●●t . 〈◊〉 . 2. caus . 13. qu●est . 2. t Augustin . de cura pro mortuis . cap 13. u Fa●it Gra●ianus quindam 〈…〉 & re●pondet quòd non ; & ●oc ●rob●t aut●oritate Esaiae . Glos●a . in 13. q 2. Demortui● . x Non est incredible ●nimas sanct●rum , quae in abscondit●●acici Dei veri luminis illustratione laetantur , in ipsi●s contemplatione e● quae foris aguntur int●lligere Petr. Lombard . Sente●t . l. 4● Distinct. 45. F. Inveni●ntur tamen quidam S. Patrum dixisse , quasi ni●il sit in creaturis quod non v●deant , qui vident omni● videntem . Ego ●mplius judicare non praesumo ni●i noc solum , quod tantum vident , qu●ntum illi placitum est quem vident , & in quo vident — difficile est de huju●modi judicare . Hugo de S. victore de Sacram. Fidei lib. 2. c●p . 11. tom . 3. z Sed non audiunt , inquis , & ego in ventum ve●ba in●undo , non audientibus & non intell●gentibus loquen● . E●ce dicamus , non audiunt Sanct● verba postulantium , neque ad beatitu●inem illorum a●●ine● ista nosse quae foris aguntur . ●cce dicamus , non au●iun● ; nunquid Deus non a●dit ? Quid ergo laboras investiga●● quid audi●t & quant● audiunt Sancti qu●s oras , cū ipse Deus ●udiat propt●r quem oras ? ipse videt ●umilitat● tuam , qui remuneraturus est devot●●nem t●●m . I● ibid. Qu●● videlicet praeter hunc nu●a vi● , nullumque est aliud ostium — solum hu●us unig●niti silij Dei nomen quod est Iesus Christus , necessarium universae o●ationis est vehicul●m . Rupertus lib. 12. in Ioan. cap. 16. tom . 2. b Error Valdensium circa Sanctos ; dicunt , in●nes ess● ad Christi matrem caet●rosque Sanctos preces nostras , superstitio s●mque esse illorumado ationem . Claud. Seyssel adv● sectam Valdens . pag. 68. c Credat in te ●●justificas im●ium , & solam ju●●ifica●●● 〈…〉 . sup . 〈◊〉 serm . 2● & 〈◊〉 sol●m fid●m 〈…〉 salutem Id. 〈◊〉 . 77. d 〈◊〉 in c●●t●ntione 〈◊〉 Iud●us & qu● sola 〈…〉 fide Iesu Ch●isti cont●mpt● , num●ros●● 〈…〉 arrogat ex op●rib●s . R●pert . li● . 2. in li● Rep. ca● . 29. to . 1. e Ad quam [ salutem ] nos g●●tis , ul e●t , nullis nostris prae●●dentiom meritis per praedica●ores suos ipse vocavi● , & gr●tuad peccatorum re●●●sione justis●cavit . Id. lib. 1. in ● 1. Ioan. f Neque●alia sunt hominum 〈◊〉 , ut propter ●a vita aete●na debeatur ex jure ; aut D●us t●juriam faceret , nisi ●am donaret — me●ita omni● dona Dei sunt , & ita ho●o magis propter ipsa D●o debitor , q●im est Deus homini●● quid sunt omnia merit● ad 〈◊〉 glo●iam ? Ber. i● Annunt serm . 1. Meum proin●e meritum , mis●●atia Domini . Non pla●● sum me●iti inops , quamd●● ille mis●rationum non ●uerit . Quod si misericordie Domini multae , multus ni●●lominus ego in mer●tis sum . Id in Can●●● . s●●m 61. Notes for div A16161-e123700 1 Cor. 2.13 . b In fratre Bonaventura Adam peccasse non videtur . Tri●hem . de sc●ip Eccles. c Alexandri Alensis● Angl●● quon●am Parisijs auditor . ●●ithem . ibid. d Expli●it lectura Su●●ilis in Vni●e●si●a●e Parisiens . D●ctoris Ioannis D●●s in quod●m Vi●●ul● Parochiae , de Emildon voc●t● Dunston , in Comitat● Northumbriae pertinen●e domui Scholarium de Mer●on H●ll in Oxoni● . Camden Britan in Ott●di●i . & Scoti opera MS. in Bib●ioth . Me●●one●● Oxoniae . f Romanorum malleus & contemptor . Math. Paris . in H●nr . 3. ad an . 1253. Si quis animas perdere non formidat , nonne A●tichristus meritò est dicendus ● Id. ibid. h Vera sunt quae dicit , Catholicus est nobis religio●ior consilium dederunt , ma●imè propter hoc , quia s●iu●t , quod quand●que discessio est ventura● Id. ibid. p. 1162. i Nec literabitur Ecclesia ab Aegyptiac● servitute , nisi in ore gladij ●ruentandi . Id. ibid. k Histor. Gisburn . Gua●● . Hemings . apud Illyric in Catal. Test. verit lib. 18. l Fornicatus est spiritualiter cum alienigenis plarimis , cum Wiclevistis , cum Dulcinistis . Cochl . Hist Hussit . lib. 2. p. 100. m Ad sex millia utriusque s●xu● hominum coll . gerat Dulcinu● : quinimo ad●uc in Tridentinis montibus aliquae ejus extant reliquia Iac. Phil. Bergom . in supplem . supplem . l. 13. ad an . 1305. n Ejus reliquia nostra aetate varijs in locis & Germaniae & Galliae , Sacramentarijs eosdem redintegrantibus , re●igu●runt Prateol . tit . Dulcinus . o Platina in Clem. 5. p Totam illam terram Lombardiae suis error●bus implentes , Geraldus , & Dul●●unt . Nic. Eymeric . secunda p●●t . Director . Inquisitor . qu●est . 12. q Bestiam ascendentem de 〈◊〉 , plen● nominibus Blasphemie , Pardique vari●tatibus circumscriptam ●du●i potest non Curia , sed Cura : mar●●●d sidera●s plus quam M●rcum : du●s Sa●monem legens , despi●it Salomonem . Pet. de ●in●is . ●ib . 1. Epist. ●1 r Catalog . Test. verit . lib 16 s Prae●●pit Papa , ut li●●r secreto● & si posset ●ieri , fine Fratrum scandalo , combureretur . Math. Pa●s . Hist. ad an . 1256. t Dignitatibus & be●e●icijs omnibus sunt privati , done● juraverunt revocare Patisijs , & malijs ●tvitatibus & locis , quicqui● co●tra dictorum Frat●um ordi●es implicitè vel e●plicit● evomulssent . Tho Can●●pratan . lib. 2. exempl . memorabil su●●●mpori● . c. 10. § 23. u Franciscu● Ordinis Mino●um institutor ex As●iso civitate Italiae ori●ndus , clarvit Anno 1220. ●●ithem . de scriptor . Eccles. x Et id●ò pat●t quòd Sacra scriptura su●ficienter contin●t doctri●am necessariam vi●tori — quantum ad credenda , speranda , operanda . Sco●us 1. Sent. prolog . qu est . s●●und . y Non enim qualitercunque bonum facit , s●● perficit . Hebr. 6. ad pe●●ectinnem ●eramur . Per●●ctum est 〈◊〉 nihil deest . Tun●●rgo homo est per●●ctus , quando est instruct●s . Aquin. i● 2. Tim. 3. in tom . 16. z Fructus Scripturae non est quicunque , sed plenitudo aeternae foeticita●is . Bonaventura in Breviloq . sect . 3. tom . 6 Et tales recipit Ecclesia , non ad p●o●ationem Fidei , sed ad m●rum instructionem . Hugo in Prolog● Galcatum S. Hieron . b Licet illa sumptio quae est in ac●●pi●ndo sub una specie ●a●li●●at : illa tamen quae est su● duabus est m●●eri● merit● ; tum ratione aug●entationis devotio●● , tum ratione ●idei di●atation●s actualis , tum ratione su●ptionis completioris , sumptio sub ●traque specie , quem medum sumen●t tra la●it Dominus , e●t majoris efficaciae & compl●m . a●● . Halens . summae part 4 qu est . 53. membro pri●o . c Totus Chris●us non con●i●●tur sub utraque●●ecie sacra●entaliter● se● ca●o tanti●●● sub spe●ie panis ; sangui● tan●●m su●●pecie vi●i . H●lens . part . 4. qu●est 4● . memb . 3. ●ie● . d Alexander de Al●● , nati 〈◊〉 A●gl●●u● , cla●uit anno ●●40● . T●●them . ●uia C●ristus integrè ●am●●● sub utr●que spe●ie , b●●e lic●● su●ere c●●pus 〈◊〉 sub ●●ecie ●anis tantum 〈◊〉 ●ere 〈…〉 Loicis on Ecclesi● . Hal●ns . part . 4. S●m●● . qu. 53. memb . 1. f Sed duo instituit per s●psum , 〈◊〉 Sac●ame●tum Baptismi & Eucharistis . Sacramentum ve●ò Confirmationis & extreme ●unctionis ded●t per Apostol●s . Alia ve●ò tria Sacra●enta quandam habent additionem à Domino in Evangelio . Halens . Summae , part . 4 quaest . 8. memb . 2 artic . 1. g Sine praejudi●io dicendum , quod Dominus neque hoc Sacramentum institu● , neque dispens●vit , neque Apostoli● Institutum suit hoc Sacramentum Confirmationis Spiritus sancti instinctu in Concilio Meldensi , quantum ad formam verborum , & ma●eriam elementarem . Id. part . 4 qu. 23. memb . primo . h Inter Catholicos nonnulli negarunt hoc Sacrament●m ●uisse à Christo institutum , ex quo p●anè s●quebatur non esse verum Sacramentum ; ita vero sen●it Hugo de S. victore l. 2. de Sacram● . 2. quem secutus est magister in 4. dist . 23. Alens . qu. 8. ●n . 2. Altissiodor . l 4. Sum. tract . 7. c. 1. S●a●ez . in 3. part● Thomae . disp . 39. § 2. tom . 4. i Scotus lib 4 Dist. 10. quaest . 1. § quantum ergo ad is●ud a●gum . k Principaliter autem videtur me movere quod de Sacramentis tene●dum est , si●ut tenet S. Romana Ecclesia ● nunc autem ipsa tenet panem transubstantiari in cerpus , & vinum in sanguin●m , 〈◊〉 manifesse habetur Extravagante de Summa Tri●●t . & ●●le cath . firmiter Credimus . Ecclesia declaravit istum intellectumesse de veritate Fidei in illo Symbolo edito sub Innoentio●ertio ●ertio in Conci●io Later●nensi . et si quaeras quare voluit Ecclesia eligere istum difficilem intellectum hujus Articuli , cum verba scriptu ae possent salvari secundum intellectum facilem , & veriorem secundum apparentiam : dico , quod ●o spiritu expos●● sunt scripturae , quo conditae , & ita supponendum est quod Ecclesia Cath. eo modo exposuit , quo tradidit nobis fides Sp. sancto veritatis edocta ; & ideo hunc intellectum elegit , quia verus . Scotus — in 4. S●ntent . Dist. 11 , quest 3. §. l Vnum tamen addit Scotus quod minime p●obandum est , ●nte Lataranense Concilium non suisse dogma fidei transubstantiationem : id enim ille dixit quia non lege●at Concilium Romanum , sub Gregorio 7. neque consensum illum Patrum , quem nos add●ximus . Bellar. l. 3. de Sacram . Eucharist . cap. 23. §. u●um . m ●oc Dicit Scotus , non ext●re sum Scriptura tam expresum , ut sine Ecclesiae declara●ione evidenter cog●t transubstantiationem admittere . Atque ad non est omnino im●ro●●bile . Nam e●●●●si Scriptura videatur nobis tam cla●● , ut po●sit cogere hominem non protervum : tamen an 〈◊〉 sit , meri●o dubitari pot●●t , cum homines doctissimi , & 〈◊〉 , qualis i●primis Scotus fuit , contra●●●● 〈◊〉 Id ibid. § secu●●o . n An s●tini autem fui●set curiosis omnibus impos●●i●se silentium , ne 〈…〉 quo i● fieret — an verò potius de modo quo id fieret , ●uriosum quemque s●●e relinquere conjecturae , si●ut lib●●um suit a●te ill●d Conci●●um , modò veritatem orp●●is & s●nguinis 〈◊〉 in Eucharisti● esse sateretur , quae ●uit ab i●itio 〈…〉 fide● . Tonst●ll de Eucha●istia lib. 1. pag. 46. o M●nini Ton●●allum●pis●opum ●pis●opum saepi●s narrasse Innocentium tertium inco●saltius se●isse , quod transubstan●stanti●●tionis opinionem arti●●lu● fidei 〈◊〉 . Quum a●ted liberum ●uisset vel sic vel aliter 〈◊〉 . V●ta Bernardi Gilpini pag. 40. p Ita ut Scotus ( quod & Episcopus Tunstallus saepenum●ro ingenuè ●atebatur ) existimarit , multo melius faciliusque pot●●sse Ecclesiam uti comm●diore interp●e●atione v●rborum in sa●●a ●oena . Rever●ntèr cum antiquis Pa●ribus de sacra Co●na loquendum judicavit Episcopus , & Transubstantiationis opinionem ●●itte●dam esse . Illud etiam idem Tunstallus ex scriptis & sermonibus affirmare solebat , Innocentium tertium nescisse quid ageret , quando Transubstātiat●onem inter ●rticulos fidei posuerit : dicebatque Innocentium d●c●is circa se hominibus car●isse● adeo equidem inquit Tunstallus , si ipse fuissem ei ● Consilio , non dubito me potuisse Pontificem ab e● Consilio vetraxissè . Vita Be● . Gilpini . pag. 46. q Nullu● sapiens Crucem● sed Christum crucifixum adorat . Honor. Augustud . in Gemma animae● ut citatur à Cassandro in Consult . cap. de Imag. r Carolus Rex Francorum misit Synodalem librum ad Britanniam sibià Constantinopoli directum , in quo libro ( he● pro● dolor ) ●ulta inconvenienti● , & v●●● fidei contrari● reperieba●tur ; maximè quod penè omnium Orientalium Doctorum , non minus quàm trecentorum , vel eo amplius Episcoporum , u●animi assertione confirmatum fuerit Imagines adorari debere , quod omnino Ecclesia Dei execr●tur . Roger Hoveden part . 1. Annal . p , 405. an . 792. s Prop●er ista● ratione● & consim●let d●cunt 〈◊〉 , quòd nec n●s oram●s S●nctos , nec ipsi orant pro nobis nisi improprie ; i●e● 〈◊〉 , qui● or●mus ●●●m ut Sancto●um 〈◊〉 no● 〈◊〉 Gul. Al. tissindo● . in Summ● part . 4. li● . 3. tract . 7 q● est . 6. t Opera 〈◊〉 sunt causae 〈…〉 sit justus apud Deum , sed ●oti●s 〈◊〉 executiones & mani●est●tiones just t●● . Th. Aquin comment . in c. 3 Ep. ad G●lat l●ct . 4. & Rom. 3. L●ct . 4. & — ●usti●icationis in sola ●ide● Id in ● 〈…〉 . 1●ect ●ect 3. 〈…〉 side pa●sionis 〈◊〉 r●mitt●tur omnis 〈…〉 fide ejas null●s justifi●atur Bonaventura in 4 . ●ent . di●t . 15. quest . 1. 〈…〉 in B. Ch●ys . & qu●tuor D●ctor . Eccles. in 〈◊〉 8 August●● quaes● . 13. y S. Thomas 〈…〉 in 1. 〈…〉 art 5. & in Rom. 4. constanter a●●irmat , ●ullum esse i● peccato e●meritum suae justificationis 〈◊〉 ex cōg●●o , 〈…〉 . Vega in opus●us . 〈◊〉 . 6. de Iusti●●at . z Qui [ actus ] s●cundum se co●●iderat●s absque tal● acceptatione divin● secun●●m ●●r●ctam justiciam non fuiss●t dignus t●li 〈◊〉 ex intrinse●● bonitate quā haberet ex 〈◊〉 principijs ; quod 〈◊〉 ; semper enim praem●um est majus bonum merito ; & justitia 〈…〉 non reddit meli●s pro 〈◊〉 bo●o ; id●o benè dicitur quòd semper Deus praemiat ultra meritum condignū● Scotus in prim . Sent●●t● dist . 17 qu 3. nu . 2. a Loquendo d● strict● justiti● , Deus nulli nost●um propter qu●cu●que merita est debitor perfectionis reddendae , tam intense ; propter immod●ratum ●xcessum ill●●s perfectionis ultrà ill● merita . Idem in 4. dist 49. qu. 6. b Dr. Vshers Answer to the Iesuite title of Merits . pag. 547. c Non sequitur , quod Deus effic●atur simpliciter de●itor nobis , s●d 〈◊〉 ; in quantum debi●um est , ut sua ordinatio impleatur . 2● quest . 114 art 1. ad 3 um . d Cavendum est tibi in 〈◊〉 , ne debili aut fragil● fundamento i●n●t●ris , quod ille proculdubio fa●it , qu● de meritis suis con●idit , & t●nquam m●ritis suis debita petit●●n oratione dona Dei ; qui so●is suis viribus aut meritis i●nititur , D●i ●uxilio , & viribus scipsum privat . Gu●● . Parisiens . de Rhetoricâ diviná , cap. 52. e Omnes enim tàm veteres , quàm recentes — uno ore pro●itentur , remissionem peccatorum , & gratiam justificationis n●minem suis qu●mvis in speciem bonis operibus mereri — nec ab ●ac sententiâ abhorrent Scriptores Scholastici , & recentiores Ecclesiastici . Cassander C●s●ll . Art. 6. de Bon. operi● . Notes for div A16161-e129020 Lingnarum ●●gnitio , & 〈◊〉 L●tinae & G●aecae , ( ●um postea Hebra● 〈…〉 ex●itat●●●st ) circase p●r● Constantinop●l●os 〈◊〉 hos●●bu● Christ● expugnat● , ●●dire c●●it ; pauci● Graecis , nimirum Bess●●one , Theodoro Gaza , Georgio Trape●●ntio , Emanuel● Chrysolora , illinc in Italiam recept● . Iac. Faber St●pulen●●n p●ae●at . in comment . in Evangelia . g Mr. Henry Isaacsons Chronology ad an . Chr. 1314. h Nicolaus de Lyra , natione Anglicu● , studiofissimus● Trithem . de scriptor . Eccles . i Gul. Ockam , natione Anglicus , Ioannis Scot● quondam discipul●s . Trithem . de scriptor . Eccles. k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nilus de primatu Papae lib. 2. pag. 64. l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . id . ibid. Pag. 66. m 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . id . ibid. Pag. 70. o Nam si Episcopus Romanus an●eà primus ●uiss●t , orbisque terrarum P●stor ● S. Petro constitutus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Nunquam sanctissimi Imperarores Co●stantin . & Iustinian . ut dere sui juris promulgassent : Decernimus ut Romanus Episcopu● primus omnium sacerdotum sit ; quia lege non opu● uisset . Barlaam de prim●●● Ponti●ic . c. 4. p. 198. p 〈…〉 principatus siv● contenti●sa jur●sd●ctionis , regimin●● , s●u coac●ivi judicij ●ujuslib●t in hoc seculo , Chri●●us s●ipsum & 〈◊〉 os exclusit , & ex●ludere vo●u●t . Marsil . Pata● Def●nsor pacis p●rt . 2. c 4 p. 2. q Catalog . 〈…〉 . li● . 18. r Q●òd Clerici si●t & ●sse 〈◊〉 ●ure subjecti potestati 〈…〉 , tum 〈◊〉 j●di●ijs , prae●ertim in causis ●on Eccl●sias●icis , 〈◊〉 de Padua , & Io●nnes de Iand●no do●uer●●t 〈◊〉 de ●leri● l●b . 1. c. 2● § p●str●mo . s ●go secund●m fo●mam juris ab ip●● s●ut ab h●re●ico app●llavi egiti●è ad universalem Ecclesi●m , & gen●r●le C●n●ilium . Michael d● C●zena , Epist. 12. t Dante 's Aligeriu● , vir tàm ●n divinis Scripturis , quam in secularibus literi● omnium suo tempore studiosissimus , pu●sus pa●●â omnibus diebus suis exulavit . ●rithem . de scriptor . ecclesiast● u D●xit Ludovico Imperatori : O Imperator , defende me gladio , & ego defendam te Verbo . Trithem . de scriptor . Eccles. verbo Guil. Ockam . x S●rvus non est major domino . Pilat●s jurisdictione● habuit coa●tivam super C●ristum , camque ordinariam , non usurpatam . Ockam lib. 6 Dialog part . 1. cap. 4. y St●tisse lego Apostolos judicandos , sedisse judicantes non l●go , Bern. ad Eugen . Ockam ibid. cap. 3. z In Romano Indice prohibita sunt ●uae scripsit contrà Ioannem Pap. 22. Possevin . apparat sacer . tom . 1. li● . G. p. 709. a Si quid autem scripsero , correctioni Ecclesiae Catholicae , non Ecclesiae malignantium submitto . Ockam in Prologo compend . errorum Ioan. Papae 22. b Non ideò solummodò vocatur Conciliū generale , quià authoritate summi Pontificis co●vocatur . Ockam . Dial . pa●r . 1. lib 6. c 84. c Reges & Principe● & nonnull● Laici , possunt si voluerint , ad generale concilium conveni●e , & e●●sdem Concilij tractatibus interesse . Id. ibid. d Concilium generale , licet sit par● Ecclesiae militantis universalis , tamen non est Ecclesia universalis . Igitur teme● arium e●● dicere quod Concilium generale contrà fidem errare non potest . Id. ibid. part . 1. l. 5. cap. 25. e Quod si Concilium in ●●●resin ●abe●etur , remanerent alij Catholici , qui occultè vel publicè prout expediret , auderent fidem defendere O●thodoxam — potens est Deus de lapiditus , id est , Laicis rudibus , & ●bjectis pauperibus , & de spectis Catholicis , Dei filios suscitare . Id. ibid. p. 1. l. 5. cap. 2● . f Satute of Provisors . An. 25. Edward . 3. cap. 22. Stat. an . 27. Edw. 3. cap. 1. S●●t . an . 38. Edw. 3. cap. 1. g An. 13. Richard. 2. Statute an . 16. Rich. 2. cap. 4. & 5. g An. 13. Richard. 2. Statute an . 16. Rich. 2. cap. 4. & 5. h Stat. an . 11. Henr. 4. cap. 8. i In ●a Inquisitione compertum ●uit , no●nu●os viginti Ecclesias & dignitates ipsiu● Papae authoritate possidere , illisque in super i●s dem privilegijs indult●m esse , ut sine mode atque numero n●ctas licite retinere possi●t . Antiq. Britan. pag. 249. k Math. Paris in Henr. 3. ad an . 1240. — Rex per singulos Comitatus Angliae ●ec●t inquiri summam Redituum Romanorum , et inventum est , quod ad ta●tundem pe●●●e ascendisset , quantum Reditus ipsius , videi●●et 60. millia Ma●carum puri redditus . exceptis alijs varijs emolumentis . Math. Westmon●st . ad an . 1245. in Henr. tertio . l The Papists Supplicat . answered by Gabr. Powell . m Prudentiall Ballance cap 21. that all our Christian English Kings to King Henry 8. we●e Roman Catholikes . n Bellar. lib. 3. de Eccles. milit . cap. 2. § Nostra . o Dante Ca●●o . 9. del ' paradiso . pag. 483. p Id ibid. Canto 18 p. 538 q Id. ibid. Canto . 29. pag. 601. Dante In●erno Canto 19. pag. 120. s ●r . Pe●rarcha vir in divinis scripturis e●udi●us , literas humanitatis post longa silentia mortuas ( ut ita dixerim ) ab ●nferis revoca●it ad superos . Trith . de script . Eccles. t Petrarcha Son●ti 92. pag. 85. part . 1. u Petrarch . part . 1. Sonetti 108. pag. 149. in tom . 4. Basil. 1581. x Pius Quintus tr●a e●us cantica abradi jussit . Bellar. in Ap●end . ad librum de Pont●f . c. 21. y Pe●rarch . pag. 113. Vene● . 1600. z Non potuit Petrarchs , cum Romam , sive Ave●●●n●m , ●b Curiam summi Po●ti●i●●s , Babylonem appell●v●t , de ●ide , ●e religione , sed de vitijs tantum , quae tu●c ●●geba●t , ea dicere . Bellarm. in Append. c. 21. 〈◊〉 d●cam●an i●sa●●● m●●●trix fornicata ●um Regibus te●●e . Illa ●quidem e● quam in Spiritu s●●er videt 〈◊〉 , illa ead●m in 〈◊〉 es , no ●alia , sede●●u●er aqua●●●●tas . Petrarch● Epist. 16 to . 2 p 729. Quid exp●ct●● nisi quod Io●nnes idem 〈…〉 Babylon magna , p●30 ●30 . 〈…〉 & ne p●●ticipes ●●tis ●el●ctorum ●jus , & de pl●gi●●jus ibid. c The ●●owmans tale in Chaucer . * P●t●r the Apostle . * [ Key ] which the Papists say hee hath of Heaven gate . * [ Such a Lorrell ] as the Pope . d Chaucer in Prolog . in the description of the Frier . The Prologue to the pardoners tale . f The Pardoners tale . Chaucer . The Summoners tal● . Chaucer . h The Romant of the Rose . Chauc . i Chaucers Treatise called Iacke Vpl●●d . * A Trentall is thirty Masses . Against the Masse . Against workes of Supererogation . Of Auric●●ar Con●ession . k Le Pape Innocent s●● . brus●er en ce temps ( l'accus●nt de sorcellerie ) un Cordelier nomme I●an de Rocque taillade en Avignon , pource qui'l est●it fort aspre en ses sermons contre le siege Romain ; e● pourc●● qui'l avoit prophetise beau●op des choses advener touchant les Papes . Ian. François le Peti●● Le Grand Chronique d● Holland . tom . 1. lib. 3. pa● 293. l Le semblable diso●t il que c● seroit un jour du Pape , et ●ource 〈◊〉 tenu et declare heretique . Il avoit commance a prophetiser des l' an . 1345. du ●emps du Pape Clement 6. e● vit on advevo● plusieurs choses de ce qui'l avoit prealit . id . ibid. m Ence temps ung ●●ere 〈◊〉 p●●in de grand Cl●rgie & de grand ●ntendement e● la Cite D● A●ignon es●oit qui lo app●lloit ●rere I●han de Roche taillade ; l● quel ●rere min●ur le Pape innocent 6. fas●it 〈◊〉 en prison a● chastell de Baignoux pour les grandes marvell●s quil disoit a advenir . Io. Froissart . tom . 1. pag. 14● . n Crucisigi● & p●rdis ani●●● electorum 〈◊〉 ; si●ilis 〈◊〉 Luci●●ro ; 〈◊〉 Pilato , immitior Iuda , ab●o●minabi●ior Iudaeis . Sed●s tua demergetur quasi lapis ponde●osas , qui non sub●●lit ●ntequam 〈…〉 novissi●um pro●undi . Brig●t . in Revelat. 〈◊〉 1. cap. 41. o Paupertatis professores , sed haereditatum successores . Alvar. Pelag. de planctu eccles . lib. 2. c. 54. p Sed hodie Cellulae nostrorum Anachoritarum Hypocritarum à mulierculis visitantur . Id ibid. lib. 2. c. 51. q Per plurimos annos de latere Concubinae qualibet die surgunt . l. 2. c. 27. r Perpaucisunt hodie Presbyteri , maximè in Hispania , & regno Apuliae , qui cum sint publici Concubinarij &c. Id. ibid. lib. 2. c. 7. s Def●cit hodie in Ecclesia Spi●itus prophetiae . Id. l. 2. cap. 5. t Vir in divinis scripturis eruditus . Trithem . u In statu [ Innocentiae ] nullus fuisset mendicus , ergo juxta ejus statum ●●si legis necessitate urgente non voluit esse , nec d●buit mendicus● unde consequitur , quòd nec unquam Christus ●uit sponte mendicus . Lex praecipit , omnimo indigens & mendicus non erit inter vos , Deut. 15. cap. ●rmacanus serm . 1. fact . in vulgari apud crucem S. Pauli London . 1356. x Id ibid. Serm. 4. y Comparentibus ●àm Archi●piscop● quam Fratribus in Avinione coram P. Innocentio sexto , An. D. 1357. Richardus public● protul●t & legit propositiones sua● . T●ithem . verbo Rich. Archiep . Ardma● . z Armachanus opiniones suas ●rg● Fratre●coram summo Pontifice diu , plures●● sustinuit , & ipsos manif●ste ● suis deviasse regulis multis rationibus demonstravit . Sed t●ndem ( p●o● dolor ) Clero Anglicano sibi subtra●ente promiss● , & exub●r●●te ●●uria Fratium sa●i● magn● 〈…〉 , Fratres sua 〈…〉 ante su● data 〈…〉 . Walsing●m in Edw●rd tertio . a 〈◊〉 and M● . Godwin in his 〈…〉 . b 〈…〉 Domi●e , ●odie ●um Pel●gio p●o libero 〈…〉 gratuit●m gratiam 〈◊〉 pugnant ; & ●ontra Paulum ●ugil●m g●a●i● 〈◊〉 ? — T●tu● 〈…〉 mundus post Pela●●●● 〈◊〉 in errorem : 〈◊〉 Domin● , & judi●●●●usam ●uam Tho. Bradw●●●in . Pres●t . in libr●s de 〈◊〉 Dei co●t●a Pelagium . c Hunc vir●m , ut suspecti● circa fidem cōtempsi● Io. Eckius , sed egragie eum defendit Ludovicus Blosius . Bellar. de scriptor Eccles. d Religiosi●tique , ad●o fo●tem reliquerunt aqu●e vivae ( Ierem. 2. ) ut in fundo suo par●● aut nihil luminis & vitae habea●t Taul●rus . serm . in Ascens . Dom. Marc. ult . Et. licet multa isti opera grandia & apparentia perficiant , ut quòd pro Indulgentijs ( ut vocant ) consequendis circum●unt , quòd orationi insistunt , qu●d pectora ●un●unt , quòd pulchras contemplant●r Imagines , quòd genua flectunt , quòd totam per vagantur civitatem , nihil tamen horum acceptum est Deo in illis . Quare ? quod a●orem , & intentionem suam in his omnibus non a● Deum referant , sed contorquent ad creaturas . Idem . Dominic . 18. post Trinit . serm . 2. Math. 22. f Mul●i sunt qui Religiosi vocantur , qui magna qu●dā adsumant exercitia , ve●bi gratia ; ●●junia , vigil●as , orationes , ●reb●as con●essiones , credunt namque se ob sola externa opera ●usti●icari & salvari posse , quod utique●ieri non potest ; ●tiam cor exigit Deus . id . Serm. in Festo de uno aliquo Confessore , Luc , 11. g Faciendum , quod mulierem Ch●nanitidem fecisse ex ●vangelio didicimus : quid enim illa fecit ? ac●essi● ad Dominum . Id. Domini● . 2 Quadrages . Math. 15. ●xiens Iesus , secessit in pa●t . ● Tyri & ●ydonis . h Chrysost. in dimissione Chananeae ; see Cent. 5. i V●lent ille Gregor . Ariminensis , maximus & studiosissimus Divi Augustini propugnator . Vega in Opus● . de Iusti●icat . quaest , 6. Pro● . Apology in the Authours advertisement in margine . l Nilus Thessalon . contrà Pap● Prim. al●às Illyrico suppositus , po●itur i●ter libr●s prohibit●s , in 〈◊〉 lib. prohib . ●ussu Concil . Trid. Hanov. 1611. m Prot. Apol. tract . 2. cap. 2 sect . 2. pag 328. Mali m●res excae●ant intellectum , & ita qui potest peccare , potest incidere in errorem etiam contrà fidem . Ockam Dialog . part . 1. lib. 5 cap. 26. o Three Convers. of England , part 1. ch . 10. n● . 36. p De Curia Principissae Ioannae Ludovicus Clifford pompose vetans ne praesum●r●nt aliquid contrà ipsum sententialiter definire — timore con●●●●● sunt . Walsingam i● Rich. 2. p. 205. q Non dic● 〈◊〉 tant●m Londinenses , sed ●●l●● ipsius 〈◊〉 si impudent●r ing●rere praesump●●runt in●●●dem ca●ellam apu● Lambeth , & 〈…〉 . Id. ibid. pag. 206. r Ox●n●●●se 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gen●rale quaè ●● g●avilapsu●●●p●●●tiae & s●ien●●ae ●●mine 〈◊〉 . Id. ibid. p. 200. Prae●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , non in qui●●●●●● 〈◊〉 aut civi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sed in ipsa Vniversitate Oxoniae , p●o●estis diebus : Cancellarius p●o tunc Magister N●●●●us Herford 〈◊〉 sectator Ioannis Wickliff , & quidaem Canonicus Leicestriae , & alij . Id. ibid. p 285. s Robertus Ru●ge d●ebus solen●ioribus commisit onu● e●bihijs quos scivit acerri●●os Ioānis Wic●●● sectatores . Philippus Rippendon Canonicus de Leycestria . talia per oravit● In doctrina autem speculativa cujufmodi est mat●ria de Sacramento Altaris : ponam ( inquit ) custodiam ori m●o , ●onec Deus aliter illustraverit , sive inst●ux●●it corda Cleri . Id. ibid . pag. 286. t Iohn Stowes Annals in Richard the second . An. 1406. Octob. 5. u Statute Anno qùinto Rich. 2. cap. 5. Diu in pendul● harebant utrum papal●m Bullam deberent cum honore recipere , vel omnino cum dede core ●efutare . Th. Walsing . in Rich. 2. p. 200. y Constitut. Pr●vincial . Angli● in Gul. Linwood . lib. 5. cap de Magistris §. Quia in super ; & lib. 5. cap. de H●eret F●●aliter . z Anno Dom. 1428. teste Gulielmo Linwood , q●i 〈…〉 . Glossa in Provin● . Constitut. Angl. l 5. tit . de Magistris in verbo Ioan. Wickliff . Obij● Wiclevus an . Dom. 1385. Th. Walsingh . Hypodigm . Neu●●r . b Statute an . 2. Henrie● q●inti . cap. 7. against Her●sie and Lollard●y . & an . ● . Henr. 4. cap. 15● d Mr. Foxes Church-story , vol. 1. in Rich. 2. pag. 475. &c. e Vt aliâ● declaravi in Epistola missa Domino Ersordensi contralibrum Waltheri Brittae . Wil. Wid●ford in artic . 11. advers . Ioan. Wiclevum , in Fascic . Rerum expetend . & sugiend . pag. 110. f Petrus Paine Anglus de Civili dominio Clericorum per tres desd●sseruit . id . ibid . pag. 157. g Petrus Payne Anglus , discipu●us Wiclephi . Pragam cum libris illius profug●●at . Cochleus Histor. Hu●sit . lib. 1. p. 8. h De quibu● & mihi ex Anglia quidam scripsit ●piscopus , esse sibi adhuc hodie duo maxima volumina Wiclephi , quae mole sua videantur aequare opera B. Augustini . id . ibid. p. 7. i Wickless Conformity to the Church of England by Tho. Iam●● . Iohn Wickliffs Treatise against the orders of Friers . cap. 1. & 18. Cap. 12. & 36. ibid. m Cap. 13. n Cap. 15. o Cap. 16. Cap. 19. q Cap. 20. Cap. 23. s Cap. 27. t Wickliffes complaint to the King and Parliament . The 2 Article . u Cap. 34. ibid. x Cap. 44. y Cap. 24. a Wicle●● Articulus sextus in Concilio Cons●antiensi dam●atus sess . 8. Deus debet obedir● diabolo . Bellarm. i● praefat . controversiar . Harding in Apologiâ Iuelli part . 1. chap. 2. divis . 1. b Commentar . in Psalm . p. 112 ●este T. Iamesio in Wicklif●es conformity . Rhemist . annot . in 1 Peter 2. sect . 8. and Parsons three convers . third part . chap. 3. d Alphonsus à Castro advers . ●ares . lib. 14. tit . Tyrannus . Gerson primâ parte contrà Assertiones Ioannis Parvi● fol. 81. A Bull granted by Pope Pius the fifth to D. ●●●rding for absolving the Queenes Subjects . f D. Feild of the Church-booke , 5. chap. 45. in fine . — Wickliffe thought that godlesse persons , howsoever Officio in office and place , they be Kings and Bishops ; yet merito , that is in me●it , they are neither , because they are unworthy to be either . D. Feild in Append. 2. part . p 86. g Perdens nomen officij & ordinis in effectu . lo. Wicleu . de verit . script . 513. h Id. de fundam . leg . Angl. cap. 36. i Brereleyes Pr●t . Apolog . tract . 2. cap. 2. sect . 4. N●msi aliter esse cupis , Epis●opus esse non potes ; nisi si● irr●prehensibili● , 1. Tim. 3. Ambros. de dignit . Sacerdot . c. 4. tom . 4. l Quicunque sub ordinat●one Presbyterij , vel Episcopatus mortali crimine se dixerint esse pollutos , à supradictis o●dinationibus submovend●s c●nsuimus . Concil . Valentinum sub Damaso . cap. 4. m Lib. Miscel. pag 260. Wiclev . i● Ms. n Nomen non facit Episcopum sed vita . De v●rit . Scrip. p. 443. o Quicunque nomine tenus Sacerdos , vel Episcopus qui non compensat illi nomini ipsius● nomini● ration●m , non est verè Episcopus vel Sacerdos . ib. pag. 443. p Nisi Christianus ●u●rit Christo ●nitus per g●atiam , non habet Christum Salvatorem , nec sine falsitate dicit verba Sacrament●lia ; licet pro●int capacibus : Oportet enim Sacerdotem con●cientem esse memb●um Christi , ●t u● Sancti loquuntur , quodammodo ipsum Christum . de verit . Script . pag. 138. Parsons and Brerely . loccitat . r 〈◊〉 malum foret ●t expropriata f●rent omni● temporalia quibus Ecclesi● Anglicana est dotat● . De verit . Script . p. 465. s Wicklif●es Complaint to the Parliam . pag. 13. t Vt Cleric●●int pauperes in facto , vel i● ani●o , vel utrinque , & ●mninò quod cov●a●● ab ●●ariti● & fostu seculi . De ver . Scrip. p. 570 u Parsons three . Convers. part . chap. 10. num 37. x Inter alia peccata de quibu● timeo , hoc est unum prae●●puum , quod consumendo in excessivo victu et vestitu , bona pa●perum , deficio● De ver●t . Scrip. pag. 192. b Deci●ae sūt purae eleemosi●e ●t parochiani possūt ●ropter peccata suorum Praelatorii ad libitum s●um auferre ●as . Wicklevi Artic. 18. damnat . in Concil . Constant. c Decima praediales non debe●t subtrahi , cum ad Ecclesiam pertinean● . Wickliffe● confor●i●y . d ●d Parochianos put●n●● in ●●lutem A●i●● Decima● ac ob●a●io●es id●●e● ministrare . De verit . Script . pag. 435. e Posi●● , quod sit not●rio crimine irreti●us . Ibid. pag. 413 f Auserre à Clerico bona fortun●e est paena mitissima ibid. p. 430. g Wickliffes complaint to the Parliament . pag. 12. h Prot. Apol. tract . ● . cap. 2. sect . 4. i Deus nemini promitti● paenam vel praemium , nis● sub conditione tacitâ vel expressa De verit . Scrip. p. 383. k In exposit . Decalogi . p. 81 l Brereley ibid. m It is the second Commandment in his account . De aquivocis Iu●amentis et ●all●cibus vitandis . De verit . Script . pag. 284● o Scribi● contra propositionem incompl●t●● & pe●dulam intelligend●m cum sensu suo sinistro . ibid. p. 282. p N●mo me●tire●ur quocunque levi mendacio , pro s●lvatione vita propriae , et vi●ae proximi , vel p●o salvatio-infinitorum mu●dorum . ibid p. 242 q Wickliffes Complaint . p. 55. r Brereley loc . citat● . Three Convers. part . 1. c. ●0 . n● . 36. s Ibid. part . 3. cap. 5. num . 11 t Ibid. part . 3. cap. 5. ●● . 14. u Cum in Babylone ver s●rer , & pu●pur●ta meretrici● colo●●● essem — & ec●e Pharisae●rum c●●c●●●avit Senatus . Hieron . ad Pa●linam . in lib. Dydim● de Spir● Sancto● praef●t . x De verit . Script . p. 145. & 15. y Godwins Catalogue of the Bishop● of England . z Linw●od sup● provincial . Constit. Angl. lib. 5. ●ap . de Haeret. § Finaliter . Glossa in verbo Lollardi● , sic dicta à Lollio . quia s●●ut Lollium inficit s●getes , ●ic Lollardi . History of the Wal●enses . booke 2. ch . 11. b Predit plus●curs ●utres saintes pe● sonnes par revelation divine , si comme Boc●ace . Saint Vincent de Valence , de ●ord●e de Fr●res prescheu●s . ●albe Ioach●n Calabro●s , Frere Reynard , L●dart . I●h●n le Ma●●e de Belges en la ●●erce pa●t●● de la disser●●ce des schis●es ●t des Concil●es de 〈◊〉 , ●●sive 24. c De verit . S●ript . pag. ●5 l●b . de 7. p●●●●t . mo●tal . pag. 40. — Scriptura s●c●ndu● sensum suum s●cr●m 〈◊〉 pr● qua●●m scien●●● ne●●ssari● 〈◊〉 de ver . S●rip . pag. ●6● d H●bent Mosen qu● docuit moralia & agenda ; & ●r●p●●●as qui doc●er●nt mystica & credenda ; et ista suffic●unt ad salutem ; & ideo sequitur . audiant il●os . Lyra 〈◊〉 Lucae cap. 16. ver . 29. e Illae solae ●eritates sunt Catholicae repu●ande . & de necessitate s●lu●is credende● quae in Canone Bibliae explicitè vel implicit● asseruntur . Itaque si a●ique veritatos in Biblia sub ●o●ma propria mini●è contmentur , ex solis tamen contentis in ●a consequentia necessaria & ●ormali possunt inferri ; sunt in●er Catholica● connumerand● . Ockam Dialog . pa●t . 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. f Concilijs Generalibus definiunt viginti duos libros veteris Testamenti esse authenticos . Armacha● in Quastionib . Armenorum , lib. 19. ca● . 19. g Postquam anxiliante Deo scripsi super libr●s Sa●rae Scripture Canonicos , super alios intendo scribere qui no● sunt de Canone , scilicet● L●ber Sapientiae , Ecclesiasticus , Iudith , Tobias , & libr● Maccabaeorum ; recepti sun● ab Ecclesia , ut ad morum informationem in ●a legantu● , ●amen eorum authoritas ad probandum e● quae in contentionem veniunt minùs idonea reputatur . Lyra praefat . exposit . in Tob●am . h S●tis est pro su● militia ●abere 22. libr●s de veteri Testamento — Authentic●s . Wickli●●e de ver . Scrip. p. 110. In utraque spec●e Communio 〈…〉 locis , prasertim 〈◊〉 Mon●sterijs ret●nt●●st , idque usque ad annum amplius mille ●imum trecentesimum . Cas●ander Consult . Art. 22. Prohibetur ne qu●cquam pretio s●rum vaso●um possideant , praeter C●licem ●rgente●m , & fillulam , quâ Lai●i Domi●●cum absorbeant sanguinem , Bea● . Rhe●an in Tertullian . de Corona militi● . l Matrimonium non est Sacramentum strictè & pr●priè dictum , sicut alia Sacramenta novae l●gis . Durand . in lib. 4. dist . 26. quaest . 3. m Ho●cot● ( apud Petrum de Aliaco in qu●rtum ) negat Confirmationem esse propriè Sacramentum . Cassand . Cōsult . art . 13 , n Sacramentorum a●t●orem solum Christum esse . Bella● . l. 1. de Sacram. cap. 23. o Alphonsus de Castro advers . Hares . lib. 14. tit . unct . extrem . p Occam Cent●log . conclus . 39 q Hostiensis etiam & Gaufridus , & Berengarius sup . Decret●l . firmiter credimus ; et cum Martha e●●e quod pa●is substantiam remanere dicunt ; imò potius referunt ad Confessionem Berengarij , quae fuit per Concilium approbata Durand . in 4. Sent. dist . 10 q. 1. nu . 13 r Durand . 4. di●● . ●● . qu● 1. s Bellarm. l. 3. de Euc●ar● c. 13. sententia Durandi haeretica est , licet ipse non sit dicendus haereticus , cum pa●atus fuerit Ecclesiae judicio acquiescere . t Wickliffe against the orders of Friers . cap. 16. u Iste panis est bene , ver● , e● realiter , spiritualiter , virtualiter , & sacramentaliter corpus Christi . Wickliff . Confessio de Sacram. Eucharist . pag. 58. x Sicut Iohannes Baptista figuraliter fuit Elias , & non personaliter . Art. 4. in Sy●od . Constant. damnatus . y Est verus panis naturaliter , & corpus Christi figuraliter , Art. 49. Oxon. damnatus . z Confess . de Sacram. Anglice pag 64. b Nulla adoratio debetur Imagini ; nec licet aliquam Imaginem adorare . Holcot . in lib. Sapient . cap. 13. lect . 158 p. 524. c Thom. Summ. par● . 3. quaest . 25. artic . 3. d Fa●ere Imagines ad r●praesentandum D●um Pa●●em , & Spiritum s●nctum , aut v●nerari ●●s imagines ●atuum est . Vnde Damascenus dicit , qu●d insipientiae summae est , & im●ietatis figu●are quod est d●vinum● Durand . in 3. Sent. dist . 9. qu. 2. num . 15. e Wickliffes Apology . chap. 8. sect . 6. f Wa●singam● p. 358. g O●●ham Dial pag. 2 tr . 1. cap. 3. ubi con●utat Iohan●em 22. H●●●sin esse pronunciat . di●e●e ; ●il●ntes Deum nulla ignorare , &c. Magist Sent. l. 2. dist . 11. accipiendum dicit d●ctum G●●gor●● , de hij● quorum cognitio beatum facit cogni●●rem , ut sunt ●a quae pe●ti●●● ad mysterium Trinitat●s . Sed haec explicatio ●●r●o Gregorij non convenit moral . 12. ● . 13. ●●llo ●odo tr●dendum est quia ●oris sit ●liquid quod igno●●nt . Cum igitur non vid●at omnia● & per consequens non Facialiter cl●rè vident Deu●● . h Greg. A●●minens . lib. 2 di●t . 9.10 . quaest . 1. ex 2. Paralipom . ex dicto Salomonis , Tu solus nos●i corda istorum hominum ; et ex libro de Ecclesiasticis Dogmatibus , Secreta cordis ill● solus novit , &c. probat nullam cre●turam ●ognos●ere cogitationes ●o●dium n●st●orum . i cont●artum●ohn ●ohn Sharpe prooem . in quaestiones de orationibus sanctorum , & suff●agijs via●orum M S. in Bibliot●eca Collegij Mertonensis Oxon. Cited by D. Vsher in his answer to the Iesuit Tit. of prayer to Saints● p. 452 k Bellar. lib. 1. de Sa●ct . B●atit . cap. 15. ex●ho ●ho . Waldensi tom . 3. tit . 12● cap. 108 & sequent . Stultitia videtur sontem omn●o● par●t . orem relinqu●re , & ad rivum turbidum & remotum accedere . Quis faceret Scurram med●atorem suum , ut R●gis p●ratioris et clem●ntioris colloquio potiretur ? Wickli●fe cap. 30. Te●tij Trial. & Waldensi● tom . 3. tit . 12. cap. 111. et 114 m Quib●s verbis obiter Sanctos Scurris , & rivis ●●rbidis conferebat . Bellar. 〈◊〉 citato . n Sancti igitur incoelo licet non sint Scurrae , sed incorporati Christo per gratiam Salvatoris , tamen minus se habent in comparatione ad i●lum , quàm Scurra ad Regem terrenum . Apud Wicletum & Th. Waldens . loco citato , 2 Sam. 6 . 2● . p Sanctos non esse invocandos docuit Ioannes Wiclevus , qui● scilicet & ipsi K●ave● sive scurrae , hoc ●st servi , ( vocabulo in hoc sen●u veteribus Anglis usitatissimo ) essent , non autem Ne●u●ones , ut odiose interpretatur Bellarminus Anglici Idiomatis prorsus igna●us . Gabr. pouelus in praefat . ad Acad. Oxon. ad lib. de Antichristo . Virgil. * Theeves . q The Millers tale . * Servant . * Cleape , that is , Calls r Ier. ● . 13 . s Psal. 145.18 . t Lyra in 3. cap. ad Galat● Ad quid suit lex utilis ? quasi dicat , ●i Lex non justificavit , s●d sola fides , quare ergò posita est & datae ? Chemnit . loc . Theolog. part . 2 â de Iustificat . p. 773. u Dec●everunt Apostoli sufficere ad salvationem Christianismi — fidem Domini Iesu Christi . De ver . Script . pag● 494 Maritum . Christi per se su●●icit 〈◊〉 hominem r●dimere à Geh●nna . ibid. pag. 552. De per se Sufficientiâ● intelligitur sine 〈◊〉 ca●sa 〈◊〉 ib●d . pag. 553. x Waldens . tom . 3. cap. 7.8.9 . y Wicklevist● d●str●●nt lib●rum arbitrium . Walden . tom . 3. pag. 24. z Commentar . in Psalm . p●g 474. Infantes pe●cant in matris utero . In exposit . Decalogi . pag. 77. b Comment in Psalm . pag. 109. c Ibid. pag. 423. d Ibid. pag. 79. Comment . in Psalm . pag. 374. f Disputat meritum non esse causam ●terni praemij : ●umque Scriptura & Doctores confirment● Deum praemiaturum bonos propter merita sua bon● , Propter , non significare caus●m propriè● s●d impropriè vel causam cognosc●ndi velordinem , vel denique d●spositionem subjecti . Th● Bradward . in summa contra P●lagian . à pag. 350. ad 353. g Quia nullus actus ex puris naturalibus , nec ex quacunque cau●a creata potest esse meritorius , sed ex gra●ia Dei voluntarie , & liber● acceptante . Ockam in prim . Sen● . dist . 17. qu est . 2. h Sicut parva pecunia Cupri , ex natura ●ua , siv● natu●●li valo●e , non valet tantum , quantum unus panis , sed ex institutione Principis tantum valet . Rob. Holcot in lib. Sapient . cap. 3. lect . 36. i Cum aliquod genus praemij a●icui red●endum est , non propter condignitatem operis , sed propter promissionem , & sic p●opter justitiam pr●mianti● . Armachan . in quaest . Armenor . lib. 12. c. 21 k Ex hoc ulterius infero , quòd nedum vi●ae aeternae , sed nec alicujus alterius praemij aete●ni vel temporalis aliqui● act●s hominis ex quacunque cha●itate●licitus , est de Cond●gno meritorius apud Deum . Greg. in 1. Sent. dist . 17. qu. 1. art . 2. l Quod redditur potius ex liberalitate dantis quam ex debi●o operis , ●on cadit sub meri●o de cond●gno stricte et proprie accepto . Sed quicquid à Deo accipimus , sive si● gratia , sive sit g●oria , ●ive bonum temporale vel spirituale , potiùs & principaliùs accipimus exlib●ralitate Dei , quàm redd●tur ex debi●o operi●●rgo nihil penitùs cadit sub me●ito de Condigno sic accepto . Durand in 2. Sent. dist . 27 qu est . 2. sect . 12. m Caus● autem ●ujus ●st , quia et ●uud quod sumus , & quod habemus , ●ive sunt boni actus , sive bo●i ●●abitus , s●u ●sus ; ●otum est in nobis ex liberalitate divina gratis dante & conservante . Et quia ex d●no gra●●ito nullus obligatu● ad dandum amplius , sed poti●s recipiens m●gis ●bligatur danti : ideo ex bonis habitibus , & ex bonis actibus , ●ive usibus nobis à Deo datis , Deus non obligaturnobis ex aliquo debito lu●●itiae ad aliquid amplius dandum , ita quòd si non ded●rit ●it i● jus●●s ; sed potiu● nos sumus Deo obligali : & sentire , seu dicere opp●situm , ●st tamerarium se● Blasphemum . Id. sect . 13.14 . Notes for div A16161-e149890 a Er●ores Ioannis ●ss damn●ti in Concilio Constantien●i , quonia● publicè prae●icab●t ●oann●m Wicleff , vi●um Catholi●um , et authorem Evangeli●um Concil . Constant. Caranza in Summa Conc●l . b Placuitque Sigismun d● Imperatore suadente Ioannem & Hieronymum ad Synoduns vocari . Aen. Sylv. Hist. Bohem. cap 36. c Casar obsignavit , Christ●mus orbis r●signavit , major Ca●sare● C●m . Rat. 4. d Instituit Mechanicos● qui sac●as literas in ver●a●u●am li●guam tra●sl●ta●●●●vide l●g●●t●s , ●um Sacerd●tibus c●ram plebe d●●pu●arēt● quinetiam libros 〈◊〉 mulleres . Cochleus Hist. Hussit . lib. 1. pag. 18. e Vobiscum , Fr●ter dilecte , pro sancti Calici● Cōmunione ad plebes , scripturis S. Doctorum sententij● . C●●●num deductionibus , & rationibus , gaudens & l●●t●● , vol● hab●re collationē . Epistola Rokyzanae ad lo. Capistranum . Cochl . ibid. lib. 10. pag. 370. f Hut lingu● potens , & mundioris vitae opinione cl●rus . Aen. Sylv. Hist. Bohem . cap. 35. g Nihil unquam protul●● indignum vi●o bono ; ut si id in ●ide sentiebat , quod verbis profitebatur , nulla in eum , nedum mortis causa inveniri justa poss●t . O virum dignum memori● , hominum sempitern● . Epist. Poghij ad Leonard . Aretin . in Fasc●c . rerum expetend . & fugiend . pag. ●53 . h Id. Ibid. i Acts and Monum . volum . 1 booke 6. p. 624. k Qu●si ad epulas invitati ad incendium properar●●t . Aen. Sylv. Hist. Bohe● . cap. 36. l Cum duceretur ad r●gum , ha●c voce● f●tidic● edidit : Post centum anno● exoriturum Cygnam , que● non sicut istum imbecillem Anserem ustulari sint Sacerd●t●s . Martin Mylius in Apotheg . Mori●●t . seu● Homo disce mori . pag. 93. m Ad E●is●opo●um agm●● dixisse sertur : Post c●ntum an●●s r●spondebit●s D●o & mihi . Id. Ibid. n Acts and Monum . vol. 1● booke 6. pag. 770. o Cum ergo Arti●ules 〈◊〉 ●unqua● tenerim , qu●s ●alsi testes 〈◊〉 me diposu●runt , sed ●ontrarium tenu●rim , 〈◊〉 , scripse●imque & praedi●av●●im . Cochl H●st Husti● . lib 2. p● . 110. p Ex quibus vir q●idam genere nob●li● , apud Oxoni am lit●●is studens● cum 〈…〉 , quibus de 〈…〉 preciosum 〈…〉 suae 〈◊〉 . Ae● Sylv. Hist. Bohem . cap. 35. q Cochl . Hist. Hussit . ● 1. pag. 8. r Bellarm. Praefat. general . controvers . s D●o ex sectatoribus Vigleff . ●ombusts sunt Ioann ● & Hieronymus . Pla●●na in vita Ioan. 24. t Valden●ium sectam amplexi sunt . Aen. Sylv. Hist. Bohem. c●p . 35. u Confess . Tabor . ● . Rokensan . An Dom. 1431. x Coc●l . H●st . Hussit . lib. 6. p●g . 233. & ●ib . 2. pag. 93 y Quod si c●ntum forent Doc●ores , p●nem m●te●●alem in Sacra●ento non m●nere cont●stan●●s , di●o eo● omnes 〈…〉 ad collu● & fallere Cochl . lib. 6. pa. 22● . z A●●n . Sylv de Orig. Bohem cap 35. Bellar. lib. 1. d● S●nct . Beat. c. 15. §. Deinde a In omnibus civitatib●s P●age frange●tes u●ique Imagin●s in e●●dem . Cochl . lib 4. ●ag 177. b Pu●gat●rium ig●em nullih● inv●niri . Sub uti aquè specie co●ma i●●dum . P. ●eol . in El●ncl●o Haeret . 18. c N●n Papa s●d Christus est Caput Ecclesiae . Coc●l . l. 1 pag 50. * Ibi● . pag 52. d 〈…〉 est slandu● 〈…〉 & 〈…〉 se 〈…〉 Scriptu●e 〈◊〉 et novi Test●m●●●i . 〈◊〉 . li. 1. pag. 51● 〈◊〉 est sancta univers●l●● E●clesia , que est pr●ed 〈…〉 . C●n●● Coast●●● 〈◊〉 15. Art. 1. apud C●ranz . f Se●undum 〈◊〉 sue gratiam san●●am ●cclesi●m de in 〈◊〉 p●rmansuris Sanctis cōstruxit . Greg. in Cantic . cap. 3. tom . 2. g Intra 〈◊〉 mensuras sunt omnes electi ; extra has omnes ●eprobi . Id Moral . in Iob l 28. c 9. tom . 1. h Specie tenus ad ●idem Regni veniunt . Id. ibid. lib. ●5 . cap 11. i Richa●d Fi●ld of the Church , book 1. cha . 8. k Faxit Deus ut videam Hussita●um reliquia● ad per●ectam ●●●lesiae unitatem redire . Cochl . lib. 12. pag. 441. l Nacti sunt Episc●pum Archtepiscop● S●ff●●g●neum , ordina●●runt ●er ●um Cle●●cos ●●ctae suae quotquot voluerunt . Cochl . lib. 4. pag. 168. m Concilium Pragense Hussitarū In nomine D●mini Amen . ●n●ipit Sancta Synodus ann . D●m● 1421. sub Conrado Archiep● civitatis pragensis &c. Cochl . lib. 5. pag. 186. n S●holares Diocaesis Pragensis ad sacros ordines cons●●rabunt . Cochl . li. 8. pag. 298. o O●uphrius in tabuld Concilior . 〈◊〉 Platinam . Constant●●ns● Concil . contra Hussitas . p ●xemplar Bullae Indulgentia●um contra Hussitas ex●at apud Cochl . lib. 6. pag● 237 q Papa Martinus quintus modernus cont●a ips●s Bu●mo● cru●●atam e●●x●● hoc anno Dom 1429 sub ductu D. H●nrut 〈◊〉 S. Eus●bij pr●s●● ter● C●●dinalis , 〈◊〉 . Ep●s● Liwo●d su●●rovincial . Cōst . Ang● lib. 5 cap de Magistr in gl●ssa in verbo ●oan . Wicli● . r Qui● putasset xl . millia Eq●itum Germanicae 〈◊〉 , ●am levit●r in jugam compelli posse ? Id. Ib●d pag. ●43 . s I●stituti su●t tres ex●●●cit●s , priusq●am hostis 〈…〉 ●on p●ctu d●retur , foedss●●a ●●●pta ●uga — mi●atur ●ulia●us unde hic ti●or . Aen. Sylv. hist. Bo●em . cap. 48. t Nonne vide●itur hic digitus Dei ? 〈◊〉 exercitus ●r●●torum ●o●ies f●g●t à 〈◊〉 corum , & nun● 〈…〉 ●u git ; 〈◊〉 nec arm●● n●c liter●s v●n . ipossu●● 〈◊〉 mira●u●●m Dei eviden●er● d●m 〈…〉 s●●●ire & nos 〈◊〉 a Epi●● Iulian C●●dinal ●d Engen . 4. Pontific●m Rom conant●m 〈◊〉 Cōcilium B●●ihen●● . Aen. 〈◊〉 . hist. Boh●m . ●● p. 48. u Iohn F●x in Con●ilij Con●tanti●●● hist●ria . x 〈◊〉 supra 〈…〉 millta 〈…〉 convenere Aen ●ylv . hist. Bohem. cap. 38. y Mirae pro●ectò et fortunae & indust●iae , in bellis suit Zisca , ut vix ulla Graecorum , H●brae●●● , out Latmorum historia talem re●●rat belli du●●m , qualis Zisca ●uit . Cochl . Hist Huss . lib. 5. pag. 206. z Circiter triginta millia hominum convenerunt , atque i●i CCC . mensas in patentibus C●mp●s erexerunt , ex quibus p●pulo Sacramentum Cali●is ministrarunt . Cochl . ibid. lib. 4. pag. 172. a P●ot . Apol. tract . 2. chap. 2. sect . 5. b Parsons third Part● of the three convers . chap. 6. nu . 16 , 17 , 18. c Mathew Sutcliffes Answer to Parsons third part . chap. 6. booke 1. pag. 81. d Math. Sutcliff . ibid. li. 3. cap. 11● pag 284. e Id ibid● Booke 1. ch . 2 pag● 28. f Claruit personaliter in Co●cilio Constantiensi — pro ver●t●te tuend●●●ivatu● est patri●●t dignitatibus , ad civitaté Lugdunensem con●ugit . Trithem de Scriptor . Eccles. g ●●tule ●●t ●hi ●●le digniss●mi , D. 〈◊〉 Ge●son . multos coll●giss●●ue ulos , quo● quotidie ip●e in medio corum st●ms ●ube●at ut verbis Gall●ers post ●ese in hunc ●oquerentur ●enoren Mon Dieu mon createur 〈…〉 de vestre poure se●viteur I●han Gerson . In sine quartae partia operum Gersoni● . h Non est potestas temporalis vel ec●l●siastica nisi à Papa ; in 〈◊〉 ●emore scripsit Ch●is●us● R●x Regum , Dominus dominantium , de ●●jus potestate disputare instar sacril●gij est , cui neque quisquā di●e●e potest , cur i●a ●a●is ? men●●r si non inveniun●ur hae● scripta ab illis etiam qui sapientes sunt in o●ulis suis ; si non inveniuntur praet●●ea ●uisse per summos Ponti●ices haec credita . Gerson de potestate Ecclesiasti● . considerat . 12. in parte primâ oper . i Etiam usque ad imitationem Lu●i●●ri ut ad●rari velint sicut Dij . Gerson in parte prima post tractatum de unitate ecclesiastic● addit quatuor co●siderationes ad ●ulcimentum praem●ssarum ; in qua●tâ consid . haec verba hab●ntur . k Cum summus Pontifex sit peccabilis . Id. de potest . Eccles. considerat . 11. l Libellus de aus●ribilitate Papae in parte prim● , oper . Gerson m Nulla ●ff●nsa Dei est venialis de se , nisi tantummodo per resp●ctum ad divinam misericordiam 〈…〉 vult de ●ac●o quamlibe● offensam imput●re ad mo●tē , cum ill●d p●sset justissime . Gerson de vi●a ●pirituali animae . lect . 1. part . 1. n Vtrū verò claves ecclesiae se p●ssint ●xtendere non solum super terram , sed sub te●râ in purgatorio , sunt opiniones ad utramque partem probabiles ; & favorabile est dicere quod sic , saltem per indirectum propter communionem in charitate . Gerson . de Indulgent . Consideratione 11. parte primâ oper . o Idem ibid. Consid 8. p Oculos aperite & inquirite , si q●ae hod●è Claus●ra Montalium fact● sunt quas● prosti●u●a Meretricū-Ger●on De●la●atio defectuum virorum E●clesiasticorum . part . 1. oper . q Provideant sib● dum s●ive●int et po●ueri●● membra per provin●ias aut Regna . Gerson in Dial. Apologet . de Concilio Const●ntiensi in p●rte 1. ope● . D. Field in his Appendix . fi●st part . pag. 85 , 86 , 87. s Concil . Constantiense Sess. 8. t Campian Rat●o● . ● . u B●istow Motive 39. p●g . 151. Antuerp . 1597. x In Epistol à ad P●trum Episcopum Cameraci●s — tuus d●●cipulus Ioannes Cácellarius ●●dig●us E●●l●siae Parhisiensi● . — S●ripsit super hoc Reveren●●ssimus Pater D. Cardinalis Cameracens . Praeceptor m●us in●litus . Gerso● . Se●m . pro Vi●gio Regis Rom p●rt . 1. y P●tr●●e Alliaco Card. Cam●rac . de Re●ormatione Ecclesiae libellus ●biatus primo●ibus Ec●lsiasticts in ●ōcllio Constaī●tensi c●ngregatis . E●tat . in Fase . ●e●urn expet . & fug . pag. 206. &c. z Quod in Ecclesiss ron tam m●gna imaginum varietas multiplicaretur , non tot nova Festa solemnizarentur , &c. P●t . de Alliac . de reform . Eccles. consid . 3. a Maximè vid●tur necessarium quod dim●nu●rentur Religiones Ordinum M●ndicantium ; eorum s●atus onerosus hominibus , dānosus Hospitalibus ac alijs verè pauperibus . — adeo ut jam horrendum quorundam proverbium sit , Ad hunc s●atum venisse E●clesians , ut non sit digna regi nisi pe● reprobos Id. Ibid consid . 4. b Id. Ibid. considerat 6. apud Orth. Grat. pag. 208. c Liber de corrupto statu Ecclesiae . d Non mentis tantū affectu à Babylone descedendum , sed etiam pedib●s corporis . Nam qui de tali loco hoc praecipit , quid de illo put●s ●uisse dictur● in quo nō modo sanā doc●●inā non recipiunt sed acerbissime insecta●tur , si qu● corū●oluntatibꝰ , imo verò in sanijs ad versetur ? Nic. de Clumāgijs epist. ad Gerard● Maketi , doctorē Paris . p. 174. Puellarum Monasteria , V●●eris execranda prostibu●● — ut idem sit hodi● puellam velare , quod & publice ad scortandum i●pellere . Clemang . de corrupto statu Eccles Sect. 2. p. 22. f Sed a● universale Concil●um pr●priè captum , sit suprà R●manum Pontifi●● , creò● dubium esse non debere . C●san . de Concordanti● Catholic● . lib. 2. c. 17. g Id. Ibid. lib. 3. cap. 15. h Rom●num Pont. in cōdendis statu● is generalibus ●am non habere potestatem quam quidam adul●tores eidem contribuunt ; ●ilicet , quod ipse tantum statuere habeat , alijs consulentibus . Id. Ibid lib. 2. cap. 12. i Dum hanc partem defendimu● , quod Papa non e●● universalis Ep●scop●s , sed super al●os primus ; & sacr●rum Concili●rum non in Papà , sed in consensu omnium vigorem fundamus ; tùnc quia veritatem defendi●us , & unicuique suum honorem reserva●us , recte Papa● honoramus . 99. Dist. Ecclesiae . Cusan . Ib. c. 13. k Idem cap. 15. l Theologus praes●antiss . Trith . quò suprà . m Papa & ipse bella pacatis populis infert & inter civitates principesque discordias se●it ; Papa & alien●● fitit opes & su●● absorbet , rem Ecclesiasticā , & spiritum sanctum quaestui habet — Recentes vero P●ntifices id viden●ur lab●rare , ut quantum pris●● suere sapientes & sancti , tant●m ipsi & impij sint e● stu●ti . Lau●ent . Vallens . de falso creditâ , & ementi●● Constanti●i Donatione D●clamatio . extat . in Fascie . rerum . expetend . & fugiend . pa. 78 , 79. n Prot. Apology in the Authors advertise●ent . o In I●dice prohibit●rio Pij quarti autho●itate ●dit . Pag. 81. p Piet●s in superstitio●●● penè pr●●●●uit . Io●n . Franc. Pici Mirand . de Reformand . morib . Oratio ad Leon. 10. & Concil . Latera● . tom . 2. q Quinimo simpl●●i po●ius Ru●●ico , & in●anti , A●●●ulae , quam & Pontifici Maxima● & mille Episcopis credendum , si cont●a Evangelium ●sti illi p●o Evangelio verba ●a●erent . Ioan Franc. P●●us Mirand Theorem . 16. to . 2. r Fieri autem potest , ut ●t vicarium caput aegrote● , quemadmodum & naturale , & sicuti noxios hoc humores , ita illud prava d●gm●●a immittat in corpus , quod cum accidit , pro medelà laborandum , & si desperatur sa●us ab●●nd●n ●umcapi●●s au●●m malè sani & deliri ●ōt●gia vitanda sunt , ne & ipsi artus pestilenti humore tabe●ie●ent . Id. de ●ide & ordine Credendi . Theorem . 25. Sacra literae vtriusqu● Instrumenti rec●gnoscend●e , & c●m a●tiq●●● & castigatis prim●ve originis exemplaribus ●onserende , ut ab er●at●● purgentur — ver● historiae ab Apo●ryph●s nugis segregand●e . O●●tio ●ici . in Fasci● . ●er expet . & fugìend . pag 210. t Sacrae The●logiae Docto● ; Philosophus insig●is . Tri●hem de Scriptor . Eccles . verbo B●pt . Mantuan u Mantuan de calalamit . tempor . lib. 3. tom 2. Mantuan de Calam. temp●r . lib. 3. pag. 61. y Mantuan . lib 3. in Alphonso , pag. 26. to . 3. z M●ntuan . lib. 4. Alphonsi . a V●●m textum expone●do per alium , Doctorum Scriptu , etiam sanctorum quantum cunque nec glosse ●r●di●● So●a Dei grati● salv●ntur E●ec●i ; Indulgent●a● nihil esse credit ; Per●grinantes ●om●m fatui sunt . P●ral●ipom . Abbatis Vrsp●rgens . b Math. Sutcliff●s Answer to Parsons t●ird p●rt of the three convers . booke 1 chap● 3. c Liquet ig●tur ex vene●a●i●● huju● vi●i sententia , i●●ulge●tia● Pap●les non ●am ●e●t●m si●num remiss●●●●● esse quàm perfectam 〈◊〉 ri●ionem cordis inter hoc 〈◊〉 lares contriti . Wess●l de po●estate Rom. in Indulgent . cap. 4. pag. 579. d Doctores antiqui nihil expressè scripserunt , quia 〈◊〉 abusus nondum temporibus Augustini , A●bro●ij , Hi●r●●●mi , Gregorij ●●repserat . Id. Ibid. c. 7. Acts & Monuments , Booke 6. pag. 515. volum . 1 f Gabr. Powel . in Praefa● . ad lib. de Antic●●isto● g Erat iste Ioannes fortis vi●b●s , ope●i Ma●tio sati● id●neu● . R●gi prop●e● probitatem ch●rus & acceptu●● sed tamen propter haere●●cam pravitat●m valde suspectus . Walsing . in Henr. 5. pag. 382. h Ecce domi●e Ioannes in hac schedula vestrâ plu●a ●ona continen●ur , ac satia Catholica , sed habens terminum ad responde●dum super ali●s . Id ibid pa 383. i Ali●erqu● se●tit et docet de Sacramenti● Altaris , & Poenitentiae , Pe●eg●inationibus , & adorationibus im●ginum , ac clavibus , quàm Romana Eccl●sia docet & affirmat . Ibid. p La q●al mo●te suppo●●●ta 〈…〉 ●onstante . 〈◊〉 lib. 3 p 93. q 〈…〉 p. 338. r 〈…〉 . Id. I●id Ch●pit●e 53. s The 〈◊〉 p●●t of the t●ree Co●ve●s . Chap. 9. nu . 9 , 10 . 11●12 . t 〈◊〉 Do●t●ina sua 〈…〉 Catolica . 〈…〉 li● 3. pag. 94. 〈…〉 , q●id 〈…〉 Fre●e 〈◊〉 l' appellant he●●t●que . Phil. Comm●es , C●●nique du Cha●les 8. cap 5. x ●he per opera sua si ●onvo●●ss● il Con●ilio u●iv●●sa●e● nel qual● 〈…〉 stata d●lla 〈…〉 Hist. 〈…〉 pag. 95. y Disprezzato i●commandamenti d●l ponte●ice , aff●rmando le cen●ure publi●ate contro lu●●ss●re i●ju●te ●t invalide . Id. ibid. pag. 94. Non per revelatione divina , ma per opinion● propria fondata sulla do●trina , & oss●rvatione dell● Scrittura sacra . Ibid. pag. 95. z Amazzarono Francesco ●alori p●imo dé fauto●i d●● Savonarola . Id. pag 95. a Et dis●it que l●●oy 〈…〉 de Die● pou● r●●orme● l' Eglise par for●e , chastier les t●rans . Et ●●au●e de ce 〈◊〉 disoi● seavo●r les 〈◊〉 par revelaton● mu●m●r●●nt plu●ieurs contr● 〈◊〉 , & ●●q●ist la ●ayn . du Pape & d● plu●i●urs d● la vill● de Floren●e . P●●l de Comine●s , cap. 5●● qu● su●●à . b Secun●●m scripturam ●acram divinitus re●elat● regulari debet judicium de 〈…〉 subditorum ; ●uoniam ●ectu● ju lex est su● & obl●qu● . Ge●son . de Potest ec●lesi●st . conside●at . 13. ●art . 1. op●r . c S●●iptura nobis tradita● est , tanquam Regula suffi●iens & in●●llibili● , pr● r●gim●n● 〈◊〉 ●ccl●si●stici corporis , in●●br●rumqu● in f●ne●● se●u● Gerson . de examin● . Doct● . Consid. 1. d Quid autem mali attulerit contēptu● sac●ae S●ripturae utique sussi●●ētis p●o regimin● E●●l . ali●quin Ch●●s●us fuisset Legislator imperfectus . Gers. Se●m in die Circumcis . Cōcid . 1 part 1 e Ved●tur infer●● quod nulli fratr●s ●el Praelati quidq●am debeant in mate●ià fi●ei de●mire , nisi ad hoc habu●●●●t Scripturae autho●itatem , v●l revelationē à spirit● sancto spec●●l●m , — in Scrip●ura sa●ra est sinaliter qui●scendū , — non vitupero v●am datam , sed lat●nt●● d●mn● proterviam . W●ldens . Doct●inal . Fid●i lib 2 cap. 19. tom . 1. f Qua●quam is●i libri ab Eccle●ia recipiantur ●oll●us ●uctoritat is solide sunt ; id●o ad confirmandum & probandum , ●a quae in ●●●bi●● venerint inutiles sunt Tostat. p●aefat . in lib●● Paralipom . q. 2. g In 22. volumina supputantur quibus q●●si literis et exordijs in Dei D●ctrina &c. Wald. doct . fide● . lib. 2 Art. 2● circa initium . h Denique lib●r iste non est de Canone id est inter s●ripturas Canoni●as cōputād●● quāvis de ●●us ve●itate n●● dubitatur Di●nys Carth. prolog . in Ecclesiast . i Miro● m●g●● Ni● . de Lira , et Dion . Carthusianum , quinon n●gant ●as historia● esse veras ●●d negāt ●as ●am● ad Canon . Scrip●urā , si●●t nec librū To●i●● , Iudith , et Machahaeo●ū pe●tin●re Perer●m D●● c. 16● in mit . k Iob. ●●●pic . Mi●●ād ●heor●m 5. de Fide ●t ord . C●●d . Adve tendū multa quae in decretis numer●̄tur Apocrypha , et ita apud Hieron . ●●lentur , ni●ilominus in officijs divinis l●g● , I● . theor . 6● . 2. l Concil . Const. ●ess . 13 m Deb●t con●edi quod ●●●q●ando potu●t fi●ri . & factum est sine peccato , imò ●um merito , quod aliqui L●ici communicarent sub ut●á●que specie . Gerson . t●act . de Communione sub utr●que specie . part . 1. n Concil . Basil Sess. 30. o Cum eà conditione ut crederent Cōmunionem sub una esse ●●citam . Bell●r . li. 4. de Euchar cap. 26. § Secundo Ex Ae● . Sylv. hist. Bo●em . cap. 52. & Genebra●d . lib. 4. ●hron . p 〈◊〉 Sylv i● hist. Bo●e . edit per Orth●in . Gratium . Co●pit hortart popu●um ne de●n●●p● communionem Calicis q●●q o pac●o negliger●nt . Ae●● . Sylv hist. Bohe● cap. 35. Iacobellum Misvens●m instruxit in e●d●m opinione . q Stigitur haec duo sola S●cr●me●t● in Evangelijs manifes●è tradita legimus : Bapti●m●s domini●●s persi●itu● verbis , & Eu●haristia . Tr●ctat . C●rdin●l . Bess●●ion de S●cram . Eucha●ist . p●g . 181. Tra●t●●us hic habe●ur inter Litu●●ias S. Patrum . r Primi Conv●●sion●m 〈◊〉 p●r viam identificationis supposito●um efficiunt ; secundi per viam impanationis ; tertij per viam appellationis figuralis & tropi●ae , ●um quibus concurrit Wicleff . Via impanationis in●●●ntum placuit Guidoni , ut si fo●et Papa ●psam decerneret eligendam . Tho. Waldensis de sacram Euchar. cap 64. tom . 2. s Cameracens●● 4. Sent. quest . 6. a●t . 2. lic●t ita esse non s●qua●ur evidenter ex Sc●ipturà . t Pa●et quod i●●e modus sit possibilis , nec repugnat rationi , nec authoritati Bibliae , im● faci●●or ad intelligend● et rationabilio● quàm &c. Camerace●s . in 4. Sent. qu. 6. art . 2. pag. 265. lit . F. u Non inven●tur ●xpressum in Canon● Bibliae , unde de hoc antiquit ùs suerun● diversae ●piniones . Bi●● . in Canon . Mis●ae . ●ect . 40. uu Dico autem ab Eccl●siâ q●um non apparea● ex ●vangelio ●●acti●um aliqu●d ad intelligēdum haec verba prop●iè . Ca●etan . in 3. part . Thom. qu. 75. a●t . ● . x Ex Catholici● sol●● Cai●tanus in Commentario ●ujus articul● qu●●●ssu ●ij v. in Romanà editio●e expu●ctu● est , d●cuit , se●●usà ecclesi● authoritate ve●ba i●●a al veritatem han● confirmandam non suffice●e . Su●rez to● . 3. Disp. 46. § ●erti● . y Quaedam suot qu●e nec in statu● nec in figurà cōgruè assigna●● possunt , sicut Trinita● beata . Abulens . in De●t . 4. quaest . 5. z In imaginib●s ●ignan●ibus Deum pu●è , s●ilice● trinitatem , duo inconvenientia siqui possunt ; primum , Idolatria , ne etiam Im●go colatur ; secundum , error et haeresis , scilice● attribuere D●● illam Corporieta●em , & essentiale● differentiam , qualem tres i●●as siguras sign●re canspi●imus Id Ibid. quaest 4 a Bell●r . de Imag. Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 8. § Hae● opinio Calvi●● est aliquorum Catholicarum . b Ad adorandum ig●ur & colendum prohibe●tur imagines fieri . Gerson in compend . Theolog. de 1. pr●●●●pto . in secund● parte oper . c Iudicate si tanta Imaginum & pic●urarum in Eccl●sijs var●tas expe●iot , & an pl●●es simpli●●s nonnu●quā 〈…〉 . G●rson 〈…〉 . defect . viro●um Ec●l●si●st . part 2 O●er . d H●n● superstitiones in populis quae Religion●● inf●●●unt Chisti●●●● , d●m sicut ●lim Iudei solo si●na qu●runt , dum Imaginibus exhibent La●●iae cultum . Gerson de prob●tione spi●i●uum . Pa●t . 1. oper . e Sa●io● thus Sch●l●sti●is d●sp ic●t sententia Thom● , qui●●nset ●magi●em eàdem ●d●ratione ●ol●ndā , qua●es ipsa ●●litur quae ●magine signifi●atur ; in q●i●us ●st Durandus , et R●b . Holc●t . Gabriel qu●que Bi●●●L●ct . 4● . in Canon . Saniorem s●nte●tiam ●●fer● eorum , qui dic●nt , quod Imago , neque ut consideraturin se 〈◊〉 q●od lignum est , l●pis 〈◊〉 m●t●llum , neque ut considera●ur secund●m rationem ●●gni & imaginis , est adoranda . Cas●and . Consult . de Ima●in . f Nec cr●x Christi , ne● ull● Im●g● ado●anda e●t ad●rat●one L●trie , eti●m ●o m●d● quo p●ni● Thomas . 〈…〉 M●rand Conclusiones t●m 1. g Co●d●●●●ns●de●at●6 ●6 . h Dicendum quòd sancti in Patrià qui de facto in coelis sunt , naturali cognitime purà vespertina , quae est cognitio rerū in proprio genere , nullas orationes nostrum in teraè consistentium , neque mentales , neque vocales cognoscunt , propter immoderatam distantiam ●●tor nos & ipsos . Gabr. Biel. in Canone Missae . Lect. 31. i Non est de ratione beatitudinis essētialis ; ut nostras orationes , au● alia facta nostra , matutina cogni●ione videant in verbo . Id ibid. k Vtrùm autem videre n●stra● orationes pertineat ad eorum beatudinem accidentalem , non per omnia certum est . Ibid. l Vnde probabilitèr dicitur , q● . licèt non necessa●io sequitur ad sanctorum beatitudinem , ut orationes nostras audiant de cōgruo ; tamen Deus eis revelat omnias quae ipsis offeruntur . ibid. m Master Richard Montagu , now L. Bishop of Chichester , his Treatise of the Invocation of Saints . pag. 129. n Pet. Lombard . Sent. lib. 4. dist . 45. o Bi●l in Canon . Missae lect . 31. p Cr●briùs Philosophos Gentili●m quàm Christ● Apostolos all●●●ntes ; ut in Cathedrà Christi crebriùs Aristoteles ●it●tur in medium quàm Paulus ●ut Petrus — veram num igitur ● Kymolane , quaeramus sapienti●m , quae in Sol● Fide Domin● nostri Ies● Christi formatá consillit . Trithem . epist. Familiar . epist. 26. ad Kymola● . q Paulus quid igitur justificat cum qui iustitiam assequitur ? Tartarus . Non merita , ali●s non esset gratia , sed debitum● Vis igitur quod sol● Fides justific●t adper●eptionem ●ternae vitae ? Paul. Volo . Cusan . de P●ce fidei . cap. 25. pag 876. r Pridi● quàm d●ceretur ad mortem , sc●ipsit inter imn●nē●●● supplicij angustias latin● sermone 31 , et 50 med●tationes . Possevin . in App●rat . tom . 1. verbo Hi●●onym . Savonar . 〈…〉 quia vo●ui● . S●vonarol . in Psal. 50. ve●s . 1. t Verè tanquam pa●nus menstraute sunt omnes ●ust●●●ae a●strae , [ E●ai . 64.6 ] ●●gitationum mal ●●um nostra●●● nullus est numeras . Hieron . Savon●r . in orat . Do●●nic . pag 177. u Quia cert 〈◊〉 est , quo●●os non salv●mur p●opt●r m●rlta nostra , sed per s●●am Dei miseri o●diā P●e . Mirand . in orat . Dom. to 1 x Quis gloriabit●r mundum ●or se habe●e ? po●rò qui● Esaias se cum ●eteris i●volvens ●ibique vil●scens humili cō●●ssione prot●lerit l●gimus ; om●es 〈◊〉 no●t 〈…〉 G●rson de Consolat . li 4. P●o●● 1. 〈…〉 y 〈◊〉 . 1● Sent. Dul. 1. qu. 2. z ●aec dict ● , Propter , 〈◊〉 capi●●r Conse●●ti●e ; & tun● den●tat ordinem consecutiones uni●s rei ad aliam quand●que vero capitur Cau●alites● Pet. C●meracens . in 1. S●n● . Dist● 1 qu. 2. art . ● . a 〈…〉 ad p●●es●ntiam esse unius sequitur esse alteri●s non ●am●s vnt●tejus ne● ex natur●rei sed ex solà vo●unta●e alterius● & s● actus 〈◊〉 dicitur cau●a 〈◊〉 praemij . Id in 4. Sent. qu. 1. ar● . 1. b Qu●d homo 〈◊〉 〈…〉 est dign●● 〈…〉 , aut h●● grai●●● vel 〈◊〉 g●ori● ; quam●is qui●am S●●olastici inve●●runt ad hoc dicendum terminos de condigno & cong u● . W●ldens . tom 3. ●● Sacram. tit . 1. cap. 7. c Reputo igitur saniorem Theologum , fidelio●em catholicum , et Scripturis sanctis magis concordē ; qu●●ole meritum simplicitèr a●negat , et cū mo●●sic●tione Apostoli , & scriptur●rum concedit , quia simpliciter quis non mer●tur regnum coelorū , sed ex gratià D●i , aut volūtate la●gi●oris . ●b . d Si●ut om●es sancti pr●ores ●sque ad recentes Scholast●cos , & comm●nis scripsit Eccles●● Ibid. e Bi●●●p Vshe●s answer ●o the Iesu●s Challenge Tit of Me●●t . p 581 f Gloriā coelestem nu●lus de condigro secundùm legē communem m●re●ur — Et sic manifestum est , quo●●a coelo m●ximè 〈◊〉 misericordia Dei in beatis . Paul. Burgens . addition . ad ●yran . in Psal. 35. g Quinquennio o●●e Luther . Iob. ● Munster in Vortlage heredi●●●ij , discurs . Nobilis . Propos. 3. ad Ann. 1512. h Keimich ●rawe , ich begere ewer werke nirgēts Qu● Mein●s He●ren Christi we●ke mussens assein thun● Daraus v●rl●sse ich mi●h . Catalog test . verit . lib. 19. ad ve●bum , I trust no b●dy , I d●e not desire your wo●kes , to any thing , the workes of my Lord Christ ●holly must doe it , on those I rely . Notes for div A16161-e161990 a Prot. Apolog. tract . 2. chap 2. Sect. 11. sub . 3. b Responsio excu●atoria ●ratru● Wal●ensium contra 〈◊〉 literas Doctor . Augustin . exr●t . in Fas●●●ul . reru● expetend . & ●ugiend . pag. 87. c Acts and Monum . vol. 1. lib. 6. pag. 812. d Bu●●r in epist ad Episcop . Hereford . prot . Apo● . tract . 2. ●ap . 2. sect . 11. 2. King. 22 f Etiam tun● suis firmissimis eminet Ecclesia . August epist 48. tom . 2. Quid●m fideles fi●missimi ●ur●aba●tu● . Aug Epi. 80. Quid●m ●●miss●mi p●o ●ide forti●er exulab●rt , quid●m toto orbe l●●●●bant . Id. ibid epist 4● . Sic Ecclesiai● F●um●ntis Dominicis conserva●a est . Ibid. g Chytrael Chronolog . h Apolog part . 4 cap. 4. di●●● . 2. i Id. Part 4 pag. 411. k M●st●r ●●shers R●●l●●tion , & Doct●r Featlyes Answer . l Ioannem Hu● & Hier●● 〈◊〉 vtros Catholicos 〈◊〉 runt●●●retici ipsi , & 〈◊〉 . ●uthe●us in 〈◊〉 articuli 32. ap●d ●o . Ru●●c●s . m ●o Hus exustum quidem , sed non convictum esse . n Apocalyp . 18.4 . o Babylon mater Forn●cationum , Roma quidem est Ribera in cap. 14. Apocal nu . 39. De Rom● intelligendum , non soll●● quali● sub Ethnicis Imperatori●us olim ●uit . 〈◊〉 qualis in ●ine seculi 〈…〉 . Id. in cap. 14. Apoc. nu● 4● . Coll●itur , Romam postqu●m à fid● defecerit . Viegas in cap 18. Apoc. com . 1. Sect. 4. p B●ll●r . lib. a. de not . 〈…〉 5. §. ●rae●●re●●●i . q N●c s●us Lu●herus 〈…〉 s●d mult●r●m 〈…〉 〈…〉 r Ill ri● in Catal. T●st . ve●t● E● 〈◊〉 . in 〈…〉 tresprote contrà Pap●m ●●bant● s Prae●ot oper . Lutheri . t Prot. Apol● tract . 2. ●a . 2 sect . 11. u Id ibid pag. 443. uu Quem meum ●●rorē nonnull●● op●●●ula me● satis ind●ca●t ante ●pis●opatum me●m s●●●pta . Aug de P●aedestinat . Sanct. cap. 3. tom 7. x Impudēnter scribit Ioannes Vte●hovius pag. 143. se ex Co●rado Pelluano audiviss● , mult●s viros e●udi●o● in G●rmanià , p●iusquam prodi●●t Lutherus , Evangelij Doctrinam tenursse , ●deoque ipsum Pellican●m , p●tusquam auditum ess●t nomen Lutheri purgato●ium Papisli●um reij●isse . Conrad . Schlus●elburg Theolog. Calvinist . lib. 2. pag. 130. y Prot Apol. tract . 2. c●p 2. s●ct ●1 . subd . 2. & P●op● . Apol. the Conclus . S●ct . 9. Aff●it autem Satan 〈◊〉 adv●●●● . Au●hor vitae Bern●●d● . lib. 1. cap. 12. a Tur●ianus Iesuita mihi notiss●mus saepe dixit illum [ Z●vie● ] à coena , prādio , Miss● . in recreationibus eti●m ita à demonibus exagitatum , ut in magna copi . à frigidissimum mortis sador●m fuderit Hassenmuller . Histor. Ie●uit●ci ordinis cap. 11. pag. 427. b Aliqua de parte nos allegavit [ Deus ] ut te duceremus in c●nobium sac●aram virginum . Del●io . Disquisit . Magic . tom . 2. lib. 4. cap. 1. pag. 144. d Luke 8. chap. e Quid si tales missae horrenda essent Idololatria ? Luther tom . 7. de Mis●â priva●â . pag. 230. f Proindè bone siater domine Papista non mentitur Satan quando accusat , aut urget magnitudinem peccati — sed ibi m●nti●ur Satan quando ultra u●get ut d●spèrem de grati● . id . ibid. g Socrat hist. Eccles. lib. ● . cap. 13. h Bellar. lib 4. de notis Eccles. cap. 13 § eod●m . i Havena concitato ni mo●ti 〈◊〉 indegnatione , & scand●io ass●i , & specialmente nella Gemania , d●ne ● molti de ministri er●●●ved●ta vender● per poco prezz●● gracan si sulle taverne la ●acu●ta de● liberare l' anime d' 〈…〉 purgatori● 〈◊〉 . histor . libro terzo decimo pag. 379. k Peccatum in sacris maneribus dispensa●du , Leo graviore ●umulavit , ●um Laurentij puccij Cardinalis impulsu , pec●niam ad immensos sumptus undique corrogaret , missis per omnia Christiani orbis Regna Diplomatis omnium delict●rum exp●atio●em ●c vitam aeternam polli●itus est , constituto pi●tio , quod quisque pro peccati gravitate dependere● . Iac. Thuan . Histor. sui Temp. ad ann . 1515. l Et tamen ●i illi faverem ut viro bono , quod fatentur et hostes . Erasm. tom . 3. in ●pist . ad Albert . Episc. & Principem Moguntin . Cardinal . — Illud video ut quisque vir est eptimus , it a illius scriptis minimè offendi . Id. Ibid. m Come se le persecutioni n●s●●ssimo pi● dalla innocenza della sua vita , & d●lla sani●à d●lla do●trina ●heda altra ●agione . G●●cciard Histo● . It●l . lib. 13. pag. 380. n Erasmus duo magna esse Lutheri peccata dixit ; quòd ventres Mona●●●●●● , et Coronam P●pae attigisset Charion in Chron. auct . a Pencero . lib. 5. o Non liberabitur Ecclesia ab Aegyptiacà servitute , nisi in ore gladij cruentandi . Math. Pa●●s . in Henr. 3. ad Ann. 1253. p Scripturas S. subver●unt , dicta Sanctorum denegant , sacros Canones , legesque civiles reprobant : qui videbantur Ec●l●siae nostrae columnae , in haeresium soveam se praecipitant . Occham in Prologo . Compend . error . Ioanni● 22. q Provi●eant sibi dum silverint ●t po●uerint mēbra per Provincias aut R●g●a . Gerson . in Dial. Apologet. de Concil . Cō●stant in parte 1. op●r . r Poi ●he non era accompagnata col corregere in loco medesimile cose dānabili Guicciard . hist. It●liae lib. 13. pag 380. s S●xt . Senens . Biblioth . lib. 5. annot . 233. t Baron . ann . 37● . u August . contra duas Epist. Pelag. lib 1. cap. 22. tom 7. & Epist 107. to . 2. * P●eris re●ens natis idem Sacram●ntum in specie sanguinis est administrandum dig●to sacerdotis quia tales naturaliter sugere possunt . Hugo de S. Victore de Sacram. cap. 20. tom . 3. x Concil . Eliberti● . can . 34 , 35 y Bell●rm . lib. 3. de cul●u Sanctor . cap. 17. z August de mor. Eccles . Cathol lib. 1 cap. 34. a Totus etenim penè m●ndus post pelagium abij● in errorem ; exurge igitur Domine , & judica ca●sam tuam . B●adwardin . prae● in lib. de caus● Dei contr● Pelagium . b Aut si in aliquo discordat , magi● deviat à Catholica veritate , quam dic●um ●elagij Greg. Arim. lib. 2. dist . 26 qu. 1. ar● . 2. c T●emendum mihi videtur negare authorit●●em Sanctorum , ● contra etiam , non est tutum contraire ●ōmuni opinioni , & con●c●sioni magistrorum nostrorū . Id. lib. 2. dist . 33. quest . 3. d Alij enim Catholicae sese religionis tit●lo venditantes , & luth●ranorum adversarios jactantes , du● arbitrij libertatem nimium astruere conātur Christi se gratiae plurimum detrahere non intelligunt . Contaren . de Praedestin . e Nam fides ex diviat verbi auditu . R●m . 10. V●i vero id nec legitur● nec aud●tur , fidem ●e●ire , & labefaclari ne●●sse est● ut ●●diè , inquit pro● d●lor ! omnibus sire locis c●●nimus Espen● D●g●ssi●n . in 1 Timoth lib. 1. cap. 11 ex Nicolao Cl●m●ng . f Facilius Augiae stabulum , quàm tal●bus fabellis multor●m tum libros , tum● onciones repurges . Id in Poster . epist ad Tim●th . cap. 4. Digress 21 Quaàm ind●gn● est Divis & hominib●s Christianis ill● sanctorum historia , qua Legenda aurea nominatur , quam nescio cur auream appellent , cum scripta sit ab homine ferrei oris , plūbei cordis . Lud. Vives de caus . co●rupt . A●t . l. 2. p. 91. Quae de Divis sunt scripta , praeter pauca quedam , multis sunt commenti●●oedata . Id. de tradend . Disci●linis . lib. 5. p●g 360. Majores nostri tantâ licet quanta nos erga sancto● devotione , justum came● non putarunt , tot Sanctorum gesta recitari , ut legi non possent sacra utriusque Testamenti volumina . Espenc . in prior . ep . ●d Tim. Digress . lib 1. cap. 11. g Quoni●m in universà christian● republicâ circa haec tanta est socordia , ut multos p●ss●m invenias ni●il magis in pa●ticulari & explicitè de hisce rebus credere , quam Ethnicum quendam Philosophum solà unius veri D●i na●urali cognitione p●aeditum . Navarrus in Enchirid. c. p. 11. nu . 22. h Acts and Monum . vol. 2. lib. 7. pag. 819. in Henr. 8. i A●● Sylvi●s hist. B●●●m cap. 13 k Id reformatur , quod id m●n substant●à per● everat . A●ch●●p . Spalatens . Consil. redit . l 〈…〉 . Angl c. Sp●l●ten● cap. 85. m 2 Kings , 23. n D. V●hers Se●mon at Wansted pag 31. o D Field of the Church booke 3. chap. 6. p Master Cade his Iustificat of the Church of England . lib. 1. cap. 1. § 5. & lib 2. cap 1. § 4. q Codi●●m portat Iudens undé credat Christianus , Librarij rost●i facti sunt , quomodo solent ●ervi post domin●s c●di●es ferre . Ang. in Psal. 56. ●om 8. r Rom. 3.2 . Acts 15.2 . s Esai . 1.9 . t Doctor Field of the Church . booke 3. chap. 6. u S●c Ecclesia i●●rumentis Domi●i●is conserv●ta e●t . Augus●in . ep 48. tom . 2. Si Concilium in haeresin la●eretur rem●ne●ent alij Catholici qui 〈◊〉 vel ublicè prout expe●●i ●t , aud re●t 〈…〉 orthodoxam Occh in Dialog . part . 1. lib. 5. c. 28. x D●ctor Chaloner's tre●tise upon Credo Eccl●si●n S. Catholic . 2. part . ●●ct . 2. y Prot Appol . tract . 2. cap. 2. sect . 13. z a b Bellarm. lib 3. de Eccles . Milit. cap. 13. § Denique . c ●h●m . Annot. in 12. Apocal. d Sic dic●rem in s●holis , s●d 〈◊〉 ( maneat inter 〈◊〉 d●v●rs●m sertio ; 〈…〉 p●obari ●x sa●ris 〈◊〉 . P●ralipo● . ad A●●at . Vrsp●rg pag. 448 edit . B●sil . 1569. Prot. Apol. tr●ct . 2. cap. 2. sect . 2. pag. 3●● . D●ctor Field of the C●urch 〈◊〉 second edition in h●s Appendix to the third booke . Ox●o●d 16●8 . g Mi●●ale Eccles. Sarisbur●in Cano●● . h C●ss●●der . cons●lt . de solita●ia M●ss●● i Cassander in Consult . d● utr●que specie . k 〈…〉 epist 64 in tom . 12. Biblioth . P●● pag 3●● . Colon. 1618. l Off●rin●● quid●● , sed 〈…〉 Amb. o● . in H●b● . 10. m 〈…〉 Chrysos . in Heb 〈…〉 17. n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 et oblationem , qui● 〈◊〉 est , & 〈…〉 Quotid●● autem 〈…〉 Sacramento , quia in sacramento 〈…〉 illius quod 〈…〉 Pet. 〈…〉 Sem lib. 4 Dist. 12. li● . ●● .. o 〈…〉 in Heb 10. ca. p G●●g . Wi●●lius in 〈…〉 D. Field q Enchir●d Col●ni●nse de Euch●r . t●ste coa●m . r Doctor Fields Ap●ndix to th● fi●th Booke , part . 3. p●g . 11. s Sicid in . Com. lib. 6. ad ann . 1529. t Acts 11.26 . u 1 Co●inth . 1.13 . x 〈…〉 sed Cath●●●●● non ●st . ●●tat lib. 3. y Acts 17.27.28 . z 〈…〉 p 39 a 〈…〉 Isidor . origin lib 8 cap. 5. b 〈…〉 ●9 . c d f 〈…〉 6. sect . 4. g h i 2 Cor. 1.24 . k Praec●pi●u● ut quilibet sacerdos quater in anno exponat populo vulgariter xiiij ●idei Articulo● , Decem mand●ta Decalogi , et septem gratiae Sacramenta . Provincial . Constitut. Angliae apud Gul. Lindewood . lib 1. Ignorantia Sacerdot . [ Vulgariter ] in linguá ma●e●n● & vulgari , A●glicâ videli●et Anglicis , Gallicâ Gallicis , Glossa Ibidem . In a Councill at Cl●ffe ( anno 747 ) it was decreed , th●t the Lords Prayer & C●eed , should be read , and taught in the English tongue . Malmesb . de gest Pont. lib. 1. l Apostolus specialiter d●●it se velle loqui quinque verba ; quia predicatores d●●ent annun●iare quinque s●●luet Credenda , Agenda , Vitanda , T●mend● , Sper●nda , qui● p●●d●catio d●b●t esse de ●ijs quae pertine●●●●d s●dem , & sic hab●t●r primum ; & de hijs qu● per●●ne●t ad ●o●es , et sic habentur quatu●r● virtutes & vit●a , p●na & gloria Lyra in 1 Cor. c. 14 Scriptura 〈◊〉 unter continet Doc●●inam necessariam viatori , — quantū ad Credenda Sp●randa , & Operand● , Scotus 1. Sent. P●olog . qu 2. m Acts and Monum . vol. 2. booke 8. pag. 1124. ad ann . 1538. n ibid lib. 11. p. 1788. ad Ann. 1555. o Servanda est totiu● seculi fides , & sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui secuti sunt faeliciter suos . Amb●os . epistol . lib. 2. tom . 5. p Ezech. 20.18 . q 1 Pet. 1.18 . r Hoc inquies majo●es nostri à suis parentibus accepe●●●t ; respondetur , sed errantes ab errantibu● aut calumniantibus . Aug. cont . Crescon . grama●at . li. 3 c. 33. tom . 7. s Si quis de an●ecesso 〈…〉 , vel ●●noran●èt , vel simplicitèr , non hoc obser●avit & t●nuit , quod n●s d●mi●us f●cere exem●●o & m●gist●rio suo doc●it , potest simplicitati e●us de ind●lgentia domini 〈◊〉 ●o●●edi : nobis ver● non po●erit ignos●s , qui nu●c à Domino ad●oniti & inst●u●li ●umas . Cyprian epist. 63. Pan●el . num . 13. in ali● edit . lib. 2. epist. 3. t Alla ●●usa est ●orum qui in istos haereticos imprudentèr in●urrunt , ipsam esse Christi e●clesiam ex●stimante● ; alia co●um qui noverunt non ●sse Catholic●n . Augustin . de Bap● . 〈◊〉 . Donat. cap. 4. . u Qui se●tentiam suam 〈…〉 ●als●m ac perversam , n●ll● pe●tinaci anim●sit●te defendunt ; praesert●● quam non auda●●● presumptionis ●ue pepere●unt , seda seductis , atque i● err●rem lapsis parenti●●s acc●per●nt , quaeru●t autem ca●t● sollicitudine 〈…〉 . A●g●st . ●pist . 162. ●om . 2. uu Doctor 〈◊〉 in his 〈◊〉 Advertisment 〈◊〉 to his 〈◊〉 of the Old Religion . x Doctor Hall , Decad 6. epist. 4. to Doctor M●b●u●ne . y M●ster Fishers Rel●ti●n o● his ●hi●d Confer●nce , ●●●wered b● R. B. C●●pl●ine to t●e R●●ht R B. o● St. D●●ids . z Ib●d pag. 68.69 . a 〈◊〉 apud Donati●●●● B●pti●mum . & ●lli ass●runt , & nos conced● 〈◊〉 &c Augustin . lib. ●●de ●aptismo cont . Donat. cap. 3. b Si mi●i vide●etur unus & id●m Hereti●us & Haereti●●●redens homo , &c August●● de ut●lit . credendi cap. 1. tom . 6 c Bishop V●●ers Sermon it Wins●●d , of ●he Vn●●e of Faith. pag. 26. d 2 Th●s . 2.10.11 12. h l pi●●●8 ●8 . m Co●ule animae 〈…〉 . A●gus● . de 〈…〉 . lib. 2. 〈◊〉 . 7. n 〈…〉 against 〈…〉 . And Sir 〈…〉 1● . 〈◊〉 C●alo●er's 〈◊〉 Credo Eccle●i●m S. Catholicam . Pag. 8● 85. p 〈…〉 . B●lla . de 〈◊〉 D●i . lib. 4. c●p 11. § Primum . q Si populus int●llig●● orationem Sac●rdoti● , m●lius ●educitur in D●um● & d●voti●s ●●sp●nd●t 〈◊〉 . Lyra in 1 Cor. 14. r 〈…〉 doc●rinâ ●a●etur , quod melius ●st ad Eccl●si● 〈◊〉 , orati●nes publi●as quae ●ud●●nte p●p●lo 〈◊〉 lingu● 〈…〉 & p●pulo quam 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 in c●p . 141. ad Co●inth . ve●s . 17. s Illa tamen quae ●st sub d●●bus est majori● me●i●i● t●m ratione augmenta●ionis d●vo●ionis , tum ratione fide● dilatationis ac●ualis Hale●s . in 4. Sent qu ●● . membr . 1. t 〈◊〉 est 〈…〉 benignitate 〈◊〉 Bell●r . de Iusti●●c . l●b . 5. 〈◊〉 . 7 §. Si● . n 〈…〉 1. nu . ● . 9 , 10. 〈…〉 Docto 〈…〉 in De 〈…〉 cap. 47 nu 12. 〈◊〉 4.2 . Revelat. 22.18 . 〈…〉 cap. 14. z 〈…〉 . Ib. ca. 8. a August . Haeres . 85. b 2. Sam. 21.20 . c Nilus Episcop . Thessalon de Primatu P●pae . B●ri●am de Primatu Pap● . & Guido C●rmelit . de haeres . Grae●or . cap. 3. & 20. d Graeci asserunt , esse necessarium sub utr●que spe●ie cōmunicandum . Prateol . de haeres . l●b . 7. Docent nullum esse Purgatorium . Id Ibid. f Docent ext●emae unctionis sacramentum aegrotantibus non prod●sse ad sal●tem corporis . Id. Ibid. g Master Brie●wood in his Enquiry of Religions cap 15. h Non credunt quod sit sub speciebus panis & vini ve●e & realiter verum corpus & sanguis Christi , sed tantum in similitudine & signo Guido Episcop . in sum de ●aeres . cap. 22. i Guido loco alleg . & Prateol . lib. 1. de Haeres . k ●rateol ibid. l Pra●●ol . ibid. m Brocard descriptio terrae sanctae . teste Ed●ardo Brierwood loco citato . n Totum sacrum vernacul● lingu● apud Moscovitas peragi solet . Sigismund . de reb . Moscovit . pag. 46. tit . de Decimis . o Purgatorium nullum credun● . Ibid. ti● . Purgator . p Communicant sub utràque specie . Ibid pag. 40 tit . Communio . q Sacranus de error . Ruthenor . cap. 2. & Prateol . de haeres lib 16. r Sacramentum integrum tam Clerici qu●m La●ci accipiunt . Math. Dresser de Religione sub precioso Ioanne . pa. 525. s Id. Ibidem . t Sanctos venerantur , sed non invocant ; Matri Christi honorem mag●um tribuunt , s●d neque adorant , n●que op●m eius implorant . Ibid. pag. 526. u Alvarez . cap. 11. x Math. Dr●sser . loco citato . pag 529. y Bellarm. de verb. Dei. lib. 2. cap. ult . in fi●e z Bishop Vshers Sermon of the Vnitie of Faith. pag. 28. See the learned Answer to Master Fishers Relation of his third Conference , by R. B. pag. 5. a Spiritum verò sanctum & ex Pa●re , et Spiritum patris nominamus , ex silio a●tem Spiritum sanctum non dicimus● sed spiritum filij nomin●mus . D●mascen . lib. 1. ●id . Orthod c●p . 11. b Sed cum non sit aliud Spir●tum sanctum esse Patris vel Filij , qu●m esse à Patre et Fi●io : etiam in hoc in eandem nobiscum Fi●et s●ntentiam convenire videntur , li●et in ve●bis di●●●●tiant . Magist. 1. Sent. Dist. xi . D. c Pate●et ips●m contr●rietatem non esse veracitèr real●m , sicut est vocal●● . Scotus in 1. S●nt . Dist xi . qu. 1. d Sed quis audet hunc auctorem D●mascenū , Basilium , Gregorium , & similes patres Graecos arguere haeres●os . Id. Ibid. e Parsons , third part of the three conversions . In his examen of Foxes Calender . Chap. 6. num . ● & nu . 9. & nu . 11. f Ruffin . Eccles. His● . l● . 1. cap. 3. g Gr●gor . Nazianz. in Carmine d● vitá ●u● . Edit . Morel . Paris . tom . 2. h Doctor Hall the Honor o● the ma●ried Clergie . lib. 2. sect . 8. i Nazianz Ibid. k Quamvi● enim si nari vitatem●pectes , &c. Eli●s Cr●t●ns . in orat . G●eg . Naz. 19. l Math. 26.65 . m Acts 24.14 . n Iohn 9.34 . Ejecerunt ●um ●oras , id est , ● societate aliorum homi●um excommuni●●verunt . Ly●a . in loc . o Act Conci●lab . Ephes. citata in Actis Conc. Chalced Act. pag. 57. b. p Caesus Flavianus dol●re pl●ga●um migravit ad Dominum . Ib. cap. 12. q Que ( Synodus Chalced . ) Flaviano palmam morti● tribuit gloriosae . Edict . Valen. & Mart. in Chalced. Concil . Act. 4 , p●g . 86. a. Et Flavian●s injuste quidem in vi●● condem●ut●s , juste p●st mortem revocatus est à be●to Leone & sanctà Synodo Chalcedonens● Iust●●ian . Edict . §. Invenimus . r Histor combu●●ionis Buceri & Fagij & re●●●tu●ion●s eorum . Argentinae . 1560. s Morney of the Mystery of Iniquitie . Progress . 51. t Inimicus capitalis nunquam admittitur esse accusator . Glossa apud Gratian . par . 2. causâ 3. quaest . ●● . u Restituendus est quem neque convictum , neque con●essum , constat esse ejectum . Gratian part . 2. causâ 2. qu 1. tit . Nicol●us . uu Parsons third part of Convers. chap. 3. x Alia sunt de quibus inter se aliqu●●do etiam doctiss●mi atque optimi R●gulae Catholic●e d●fensores salva sidei co●page non consonant , & alius alio de un● re melius aliquid dicit & ver●us . Hoc autem undè nunc agimus ad ipsa fid●i perti●●t ●undamenta . Augustin l. 1. cont . Iulian. Pelagian . cap. 2. tom 7. Mult● ign●rari possunt , salv● Christian● fide , & alicubi e●●●ri , sine aliquo Haereti●i dogmatis crimine . Idem de pecc . orig . contr . Pelag. & Coelest . cap. 23. y 〈◊〉 & ipse sine dubi●●ederet , si 〈◊〉 illo tempo●e ques●io●is ●ujus veritas eliquata & de●larata per pl●nari●● C●ncilium soli●●●●t●r . Aug lib. 2. de Bap●●smo cont● . Donat . cap 4. z Vniversi orbi● authorit●ti p●●e●acta veritate 〈◊〉 . Ibid. a M●ste● Brereleys table o● Lutheran bookes against Calvinis●s ; in the end of the ●rot . Apol. b De D●ssidio in Coenâ Domini H●●● . Z●nchij Iudicium . H●●● . Knollo● nobili Anglo . Hier. Zanchi●s 〈◊〉 plu● . dicit extat hoc Iudici●m in tom . s●ptimo , in sine mi●cel●ancor . c Doctor Fiel● of the Church . Lib 5. Appendix part . 1 pag 114. d Extra C●●●am , panis non dissert ab alijs communibus ●ibis — pa●●m esse verè & 〈…〉 corpus C●risti utraque pars m●rito n●g●●it — u● per illa Symb●a ●●n ta●t●m signifi●●tur sed etiam verè ex●●●catur Corpus & sarguis Christi , hoc est , Christus ipse . Zanc● . Ibid e Sed de modo praesentiae inter hos & illos non convenit . Ibid. f Neque enim in scriptis ulla aperta mentio est de unione Corporis Christi cum Symbolis , vel de praesentia corporis Christi in Coena ; quamobrem potuisset . haec questio s●●e ullo ecclesiae detrimento omitti . Ibid. g Quare Ecclesiam Christi , et fideles non solum panem ; sed etiam ipsum verum Christi corpus in Coena recipere ac manducare : id quod certi satis , meo judicio , esse debuerat in Ecclesia Christi . Ibid. h Secum traxit illam aliam de ubiquitate quaestionem . Ibid. i Constant. Concil . sess . 4 Basil. sess . 33. Comment . Aen. Sylvij de gestis Basil. Conc. lib. 1. k Adorare verò Imagines , om●ibus modis d●vita . Greg. lib. 9 ep . 9 l Idem lib. 6. ep . 30. Quisquis se universalem sucerd● tem vncat in clat●one 〈…〉 praecur●it . Idem . lib 2. ●p 61. Sacerdotes mens tuae manui comm●si — Et Imperatori ●●●d●entiam ●●abu● m Sanguinem autem redemptio●is nostrae hourne 〈…〉 nant . Leo Ser. 4 〈◊〉 . n Nequ● enim de qualitate nos●re●um 〈…〉 d●norum . Id. Se●m . 1. de Assumpt . o Et t●men esse non desinit substantia vel natura panis 〈◊〉 vin● . Gela● . cont . Nestor . & Entich . p F●equ●nter accidit ut quae 〈◊〉 pa●cis ab hinc 〈…〉 non crat , modo 〈…〉 recipi●tu● . In 〈…〉 non●ulla scriptores tradid●tun● Cru●ē non esse 〈◊〉 daē honore & ●eneratione Lat●●ae , s●d●●o Inferio 〈…〉 : at in Hisp●nia c●mani cons●r sione d●cetur Cruc● cultum & ●●norem L●●●●ae deferendum . Azor Mo●●l . Iustit tom . 1 lib 2. ●p 13 q 〈…〉 , ut contraria asseratur in e● ; scilicet Papā esse Concilio superiorem . Mart. 〈…〉 cap. Novit . de Iudi●ijs . r Sic dicerem in Scholis ; sed tamen ( mane●● in●er nos ) div●rsu● sentio . 〈◊〉 . ad Abbat . Visperg . pag. 448. edit . Basil. 1569. s Driedo de Scriptur . et Dogmat. Eccles lib. 1. cap. ult . t Sixt. Senens . Biblioth . ●anctae lib. 1. u Sess● 11. uu Convincitur inde aliquid magis esse authoritatis penes totum Concilium recte ( ut decet ) congregatum , quàm penes solum Ponti●icem . Alph. à Castro . advers . haer . lib. 1. cap. 2. x Pighius controvers secunda de Iustis●●t . hominis . y Dic●mus , 〈◊〉 acroborari , & clariorem in nobis a●●idue ●ie●i ad●ptae Grati● Certitudin●m . Catharin . Disceptat . 〈◊〉 de certitudine Gratiae . z Norint isti suorum axiomata● Deus est author peccati , opera nostra Deu● nequaquam curat , &c. Campian . rat . 8. a Apologia Ecclesiae Anglicanae ( in 2. part . ca. 2● ) testatur , Bona opera necessaria esse Christiano ad salutem . Rainold . apolog . Thess. Pag. 263. b Sona opera sunt necessaria ad salutem ; non tanquā causa ad eff●ctum , vel meritum ad mercedem ; sed tanquam antecedens ad Consequ●●● , vel tanquam medium ●i●e quo non ad ●inem . Zach. Vrsinus Catechetic . part 3. de gratitudine . c The Protestants plea. The Bishop of Londons Legacie . d Doctor Henry Kings Sermon at Pauls Crosse 25. Novemb. 1621. e Si● Henry Martin his Chancelour , Master Mathias Chaldicot● Master Philip King his brother . Doctor Henrie King , Doctor Iohn King , his son●es &c. f The Examination of Thomas Preston , t●k●n before the Lo●d Archbishop of Canterbury at Lambeth , Decemb. 20. 1621. g Vnique testi , ne● Catoni creditum est . Hieron . Apolog. advers . Ruf●in . lib. 2. pag. 223. ●om . 2. h Verbum dei suffi●it , hoc unicum satis est ad vitam quae terminum nescit inveniendam : ●aec u●ica regula vitae aeternae , magistra est , u●inam credendi form● a Pri●itiv● peteretur E●clesi● , quae nullam regulam prae●e● Evangelium novit . Iac. F●ber . Stapulens in prae●●t . in quatuor ●vangelia , edit . Basileae . Ann. 1●23 . i Q●●dea Beli H●●toria & tot●m 14. caput ●um histo●ia Su●●nnae Apochrypha si●t , ne● in Hebraeo hab●●●t it , nec sunt versa a 70. s●nib●● . Lud. Vives Comment . in lib 18. cap. 31. August de Civit. Dei. Multi Christiani in re bon● plerumque peccant qu●d Divos Divasque non a●●ter venerantur quā Deum . Nec video in multis quod sit discrimen inter eorum opinionem de Sanctis , & id quod Gentiles puta●ant de suis Dijs . Ludov. Vives Commentar . in 8. lib Aug. de Civit. Dei. ca. 27. tom . 5. edit . Basil. anno 1569. k Bellar. lib 4. de Eccl. cap 5. §. P●ae●ereà . And Brereley● Prot. Apol. tract 2. cap. 2. sect . 12. l 2 Timoth. 1.3 . Cui servio a progenitoribus meis● id est , Abraham , Isaac & Iacob , qui ●uerant veri culiores Dei● & similiter Ga●ali●● qui nut●ivit Paulu● , & in lege do●uit . Ly●an . in loc . m De ve●●ris suimus , s●unt ●on nascuntur Christiani . Terullian Apologet. advers . Gent. cap. 18. n Eis obaudire opportet qui ●um Episcopatus successione Charisma verita●is certum a●ceperunt ; Reliquos qui absistunt à principali successione suspectos habere . Iren. advers . Haer. lib. 4. cap. 43. o Greg Nazianzen . in l●●d 〈◊〉 . p Boni●acij 2. Epis● . ad Eu●al . Al●xandr . extat in Li●d●●i pan●pliâ Ev●ng lib. 4 cap. 89. in ●i●e . Hardin●s A●swer to Bi●hop Ie●els Challeng● Artic. 4. Divis. 2● . q The History of the ●●ld●nses book . 1. Cha 9 r Ipse [ ●ath●l●m●us ] ●reat Epi●●opos , & Ecclesias pers●●e ordina●e ●ont●ndi● . Math. Par●● Hi●●or . ad ann . 1223 s Cochleus Histor Hussit . lib. 5. t Master ●ed●l● letters to Wadsworth . chap. 11. u In omni insigni mutatione demonstra●● possunt author ejus , tempus quo coepit , locus ubi . Bellarm. lib. 4. de not . cap. 5. §. In omni . uu Ipsa enim doctrina ●orum cum Apostolicà cōparat● . ex divers●tate & cont●ari●ta●e suà pronun●●●●● , n●que Apostoli alic●jus Auctoris esse , neque 〈◊〉 . ●ertul . pr●escrip . ●dve●● . Hae●●t . cap 32. x M●th 19 8. y 1 Cor. 11 28. z 1 Co● . 14. a Valent. de Legit. usu Euchar. cap. 10. b ●●ssens . Assert . Luther●n consu● Artic. 18. c Cajetan . opusc . tom 1. tract 15. de ●●du●g cap. 1. d Apud Prisco● null● , vel quam ●arissima f●●bat 〈◊〉 ; sed & grae●is ad hunc usque diem non est cred●tum purgatorium esse . Ross●n Ibid. e Quamdiu nulla ●uera● de Purgatorio cura , nemo quaesivit indulgentia● ; nam ●x illo pond●t omnis Indulg●ntiarum existimatio : quum itaque purgatoriu● 〈…〉 cognitum ac re●●ptum Ecclesiae ●uerit universae . Ibid. f Hardings answer to the first Article of Bishop Iewels Challenge . of private Masses . Divis. 7. g Sancti coeperunt coli in Ecclesiâ universali , non t●m Lege aliqu● , quam consuetudine . Bellarm. de SS . Beat. lib. 1. cap. 8. §● ult . h Mirum in h●c re , quàm Ecclesiae mutata fit consuetudo . Erasm. in 1. Cor. 14. i Seu paucorum d●sid● , ne laborem susciperent immutandi & corrigendi Liturgiam , posteaquam p●r barbaras gentes , Latinus sermo paulatim corruptus exolevit , & a●ire coepit in varias vulgares Linguas , &c. Rainold . Thes. 5. pag. 164. k G●●gor . lib. 7. epist. 109. ad Seren. l Imagines ador●re ●mnibus modis de v●ta 〈◊〉 lib. 9. ●p . 9. m Bellar. de Rom. pon● . lib. 4. c. 2. §. Secunda opinio . n Bellar. de Concil . lib. 2 cap. 13. o Gregor . de Valent. in Thom. tom . 4. Disput. 6. p. 2 p Bellar. de S●cr●m . lib. 2. cap. 25 : Cassand . Consult . de num Sacram. q Cassand Artic. 22 de utráque specie Sacram. Lindan Panopl . lib. 4. c. 25 r Nic. de Lyra in 1. ad . Corinth . cap. 14. & Cassand in Liturgic . cap 28. s Scotus apud B●llarm . lib. 3. de Euchar. cap. 23. Et Erasm. in 1 ad Cor. cap. 7. In Synoxi , Transubstantiationem , serod●●●●ivit Ecclesia ; diu satis ●rat ●redere , sive sub pa●e consecrato sive quocunque modo adesse verum corpus Chris●i . t Constat p●oinde ●mnē doctrinam quae cum illis ●c●l●sijs Apostolicis , mat●icibus & Originalibus fidei conspir●t , veritati d●pu●andam , id sinc dubio tenent●m , quod Ecclesiae ab Apostolis , Apostoli à Christo , Christus à Deo sus●epit ; reliquam verò de mēdacio praejudicandam , quae sapiat contrà v●ri●at●m Eccl●siarum & Apos●olerum , & Christi , & Dei. Tertull. de praescrip . adv●rs . Haeret. cap. 21. u Id ve●ius qu●d prius , id prius quod et ab ini●io , ab i●●tio quod ab Apostolis Tertul. lib. 4. adv●● . M●●cion . cap. 5. uu Si s●mper Ch●●●us ●● prior omni●us , aq●● ve●●tas s●mpiterna & antiqua ●●s . Tertul. de Virgin. V●land . cap. 1. x Q●od●uaque adversus veritat●m sapit , hoc erit haeresi● , etiam vetus ●onsuetu●o . Ibid. y Veritati nem● praescribere potest , non spatium temporum , non patro●inia persona●um . Ibid. z Vide●ur is●ud pertinere ad initium su●erroris : Nam & num 6. meminit Paracleti à Domino missi , id est , Montani , ●ac . Pamelius in notis in Tertul. de Virginib . Veland . ca 1. a Bellar. lib. 2. de Monachis . cap. 27. §. Tertullianu● libro de Velandis Virgin. b Prot. Apology , tract . 2. cap. 2. sect . 12. c Saint 〈◊〉 vers . 3. d Mark. 1.27 . e Acts 17.18 . f Nos non sumus Novatores , sed vos estis Veteratores . Ios Scaliger . Respons . ad Nic. Sera●ij Min●●vale . g Iosh. 9.4.5 . h Ita ex ipso ordine manifestatur , id esse Domini●um & verum , quod sit priùs traditum ; id outem ext●aneum & falsum quod po●●eriùs immissum . Tertul de p●ae● . advers . Haer. cap. 31. i Reformatam modò religion●m dictmus , non formatam de novo . Renovatores modò sumus , non Novatores . L. Eliens . Episc. in Respons . ad Bellar. Apolog . cap. 1 pag. 21. k Bapt. Matuan . ad Leon. X. Eclog. 10. l Cum multa , sive temporum vitio , sive hominum in●u●ia & improbitate irrepsisse videantur , quae à tanti s●crisi●ij dignitate aliena sint . Concil . Trid. Ses● . 22 in Decreto de obtervandis & evitandis in ●●●●bratione Missae . m Iohn 10.16 . 
A18933	----	The conuerted Iew or Certaine dialogues betweene Micheas a learned Iew and others, touching diuers points of religion, controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants. Written by M. Iohn Clare a Catholicke priest, of the Society of Iesus. Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge ... Clare, John, 1577-1628. 1630 Approx. 1065 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 235 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A18933 STC 5351 ESTC S122560 99857683 99857683 23452 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A18933) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 23452) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1062:10) The conuerted Iew or Certaine dialogues betweene Micheas a learned Iew and others, touching diuers points of religion, controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants. Written by M. Iohn Clare a Catholicke priest, of the Society of Iesus. Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of Oxford and Cambridge ... Clare, John, 1577-1628. Anderton, Lawrence, attributed name. Anderton, Roger, d. 1640?, attributed name. [16], 65, 64-421 [i.e. 124], [2]; 155, [1]; 141, [3] p. Printed by the English secret press] Permissu superiorum, [S.l. : Anno. M.DC.XXX. [1630] Sometimes attributed to Lawrence or Roger Anderton. Identification of printer from STC; however, the style of signing the preliminaries is French. P. 124 (first count) misnumbered 421. The second part has separate dated title page, pagination, and register. It has an appendix in reply to: Abbot, George. A treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie, and succession of the true Church in all ages. The third part, "The arraignment of the conuerted Iew", has divisional title and separate pagination and register. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Abbot, George, 1562-1633. -- Treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie, and succession of the true Church in all ages -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Catholic Church -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2006-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-04 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-04 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CONVERTED IEW OR CERTAINE DIALOGVES BETWEE● MICHEAS A LEARNED IEW. And others , touching diuers points of Religion , controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants . Written by M. IOHN CLARE a Catholicke Priest , of the Society of IESVS . Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of OX●●RD and CAMBRIDGE The leafe following sheweth the Interlocutours 〈…〉 Iudaeis nou a lux ●riri visa est . Hesther . 8. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM . Anno. M. DC . XXX . The Interlocutours of euery Dialogue . 1. In the first Dialogue is disputed ; whether the Church of Rome hath made any change in fayth and Religion , since the first plantation of it by the Apostles ? It is proued , that it hath not . The Interlocutours are . Cardinall Bellarmyne of worthy memory Michaeas a learned Iewish Rabine . Doctour Whitakers of Cambridge . Ad Romanos perfidia non potest habere accessum . Cyprian . lib. 1. epist . 3. 2. In the second Dialogue , entituled : The second part of the Conuerted Iew , is discussed ; whether in euery age since the Apostles ; or rather whether but in any one Age sin●e that tyme , till Luthers dayes , there can be giuen any Instances of Professours of Protestancy ? It is proued , that no such Instances can be giuen . The Interlocutours . Michaeas , the foresaid Iew. Ochinus , who first planted Protestancy in England , in King Edward the sixt his raigne . Doctour Reynolds of Oxford . Neuserus , Chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg , in the Palatinat . Si dixerint vobis : Ecce in deserto est ; nolite exire . Ecce in penetratibus ; nolite credere . Math. 24. 3. In the third and last Dialogue , styled : The arraingnment of the Conuerted Iew. It is discoursed ; Whether the Protestants of the Catholiks , do stand more chargeable , with disloyalty to their lawfull Princes ? It is proued , that the Protestants stand more chargeable . In this last dialogue , are diuers other points of Catholike Religion breifly handled . The Interlocutours . The right Honourable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England . Michaeas the former Iew. M. Vicechancelour of Oxford . Vidi mulierem , ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum . Apocalyp . 17. THE ARGVMENT OF THE FIRST DIALOGVE . MICHAEAS ( a learned Iewish Rabine ) by his diligent comparing of the Prophecies of the Old Testament , touching IESVS CHRIST , with the exact accomplishment of them , recorded in the New Testament ; forsaketh his former Iudaisme , and imbraceth the Christian Religion . But in obseruing diuers differences touching faith among Christians ( and particularly among the Catholiks and Protestants ) knoweth not to whether side to range himselfe . At this tyme it so faleth out , that there is a generall meeting of many famous learned Men of all Religions , in the greate Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia : among whom Cardinall Bellarmyne , and Doctour Whitakers are thither comne . Michaeas hastneth thither , and imparteth to the said Cardinall and Doctour his present state , & openeth to them his vncertainty , whether to embrace the Catholike fayth , or Protestancy . The Cardinall and the Doctour according to the different Principles of each others religion , propound to him different meanes of setling his iudgement in poynts of fayth . Michaeas ( for some peculiar reasons ) forbeareth both their directions ; He reduceth the tryall of all to this one head : to wit , that whereas he fyndeth in the New * Testament , that the true fayth was once planted by the Apostles in Rome ; He saith , that if it can be proued , that this fayth euer altered since the Apostles tymes , he will become a Protestant ; if not , he meaneth to be a Roman Catholike . Hereupon he earnestly entreateth the Cardinall and the Doctour , that they would enter into dispute , touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome . They both accord to his request , and instantly begin a serious & graue discourse touching this subiect . Cardinall Bellarmyne so presseth Doctour Whitakers with weight of arguments , & by discouering the weaknes of the Doctours answeres and Obiections , as that in the end the Doctour ( entring into greate intemperance of words , against the Church of Rome ) abruptly breaketh off his discourse , and suddenly departeth . Michaeas , as conuinced with the force of the Cardinals disputation , is resolued to become a Roman Catholike ; and so accordingly receaueth in the end in the Cathedrall Church of Cosmopolis , his Baptisme , by the hands of the Cardinall , by whom also in some short tyme after , he is made Priest . Thus far concerning the fiction of this first Dialogue . TO THE TWO MOST FAYRE SISTERS THE TWO MOST ILLVSTRIOVS VNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDG . MOST remarkable and learned Academians , in whose due prayses I could willingly here insist , were it not , that I loath all show of oylye assentation . You may be here aduertized , touching the ensuing Treatises , that I haue made choice to set them downe rather in method of Dialogues , then in any other forme of style : Because in this ony delicate & fastidious age ( which is quickly cloyed with any thing , not accompanyed with Variety ) it is obserued , that interlocutory Periods , and vicissitude or alternation of turnes in speech , are more gratefull and pleasing , then any long , wearisome , continued , and vninterrupted discourse . Though the subiect of these Treatises be seuerall mayne points and Controuersies in fayth ( and consequently , Points of Religion and Diuinity ) yet I presume , none of you is eyther so froward , or so ignorant , as to depraue and calumniate the Methode here vsed ; by saying , that we are not to inuulgar the Mysteryes of sacred Diniuity by way of Poeticall fiction of Dialogues , in forging that to be , which indeed is not . Which aspersion of any such Critick is easily wyped away , by the warrantable examples in this kind of S. Ierome , Theodoret , S. Gregory the Great , and others : who were not afrayd to treate of the highest matters of fayth , in forme of Dialogues . Againe , such an inconsiderate assertion must needs condemne Poetry in generall ( seeing Dialogues are a kind of Poetry ) which how great an errour it were , might easily appeare , in that Poëtry is masked Philosophy ; Philosophy Natures true History ; Nature Gods seruiceable Agent or Handmayd . Besids , I am of iudgment that the Body of any long Discourse ( like an vnformed Chäos ) is best brought into an Orbe of forme and Order , by help of interlocutions . And lastly , admit this kind of Wryting were strange and vnusuall , and chiefly sorting to subiects of lesser importance ; ( as indeed , it is not ) yet here we must remember , that a Phantastike often begins a fashion , which graue Men ( not to be thought Phantasticks ) are in the end content to follow . Now to approach neerer the seuerall subiects , handled in all these Dialogues . In the first is disputed a Controuersy , much agitated and tossed betweene the Catholiks and the Protestants ; to wit , touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome . The Interlocutours are Cardinall Bellarmyne ( that Heresimastix ) Michaeas , a learned Iewish Rabin , and Doctour Whitakers of Cambridg . The place of this conference I haue made to be the great citty Cosmopolis in Vtopia ; since an imaginary place best sorteth to an imaginary disputation , in respect of the persons feigned . The Cardinall iustifyeth the Catholiks position ; videlicet , that no change in fayth and Religion hath bene made in the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes : Which Position is indeed the iuncture , without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose . Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary ; In whom rather , then in any other Protestant , I haue peculiarly ( and ex professo ) made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments , vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome ; principally , because there is no Protestant wryter ( that I know ) who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change , as Doctour Whitakers hath done ; as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe , agaynst Father Campion ( that blessed Saint ) and cheifly against Duraeus , where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt . Yet here you are to conceaue , that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers , as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change : for I assure you , I haue omitted nothing of Moment , which I could fynd in their Bookes , to be obiected in proofe thereof ; though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it . And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books , where such their sentences or authorities are to be found ; And yet ( learned Men ) notwithstanding all that , which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe ; sooner shall they prooue , that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures & situations in their Orbe , then that Rome hath changed it fayth : So true are those words of an auncient Father : * Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem : & semper eam retinet . What sentences , authorities , or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged ; the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books , and in a seuerall Character from that , which he speaketh at large , in the person of a Protestant ; and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words , from the words of a Protestant in generall : In like sort , what intemperate speeches ( euen loaded with malice and rancour ) the Doctour●seth ●seth against the Church of Rome , are not by me forged and fathered vpon him ; But are ( especially , those which are most virulent ) his owne words , yet extant in his Bookes : and accordingly they are printed in a different letter , with the Latin words set in the margent : So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour , by vniustly obtruding vpon him , any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues , or Pasquills . The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes , where with they here charge the Church of Rome ; I meane , in demonstrating , that it is the Protestant , who hath made in fayth this change and innouation , from the auncient fayth of the Apostles ; And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths & doctrines together , and the antiquity of the one , and innouation of the other , you shall find , that errour is best knowne by truth , as death is knowne bylife . Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme , that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing ; In like sort , that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English , which are in this Dialogue alleadged : Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues , touching the Persons in them produced ; as that they are now liuing , and that they all liued at one tyme &c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues ; since in this kind of writing , the Persons ( you know ) are forged for the matter , and not the matter for the Persons : And thus much touching the first Dialogue . Now to descend to the second Dialogue ; The subiect wherof is to demonstrate , that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church , ( much lesse from the Apostles dayes ) till Luthers reuolt : And which is more , that not any one Man , during all that long Period of tyme ( nor Luther himselfe ) can be truly insisted vpon , for a perfect & absolute Protestant ; and such as the present Church of England can , or will acknowledge to be a member of it . Which point being once euicted , How deadly it woundeth the Protestants , may easily appeare ; in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church ; whose expansion , enlargment , and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes , is much celebrated in Holy writ : a ( Her sunne shall not be set , nor her Moone hid ) as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place . The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas , the Iew ; Ochinus , who first ( in King Edward the sixt his dayes ) did diseminate Protestancy at least , seuer all points of Protestancy , here l● England ; Doctour Reynolds of Oxford , and Neuserus , chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate . Why Ochinus & Neuserus are brought in , as speakers in this Dialogue , the Argument prefixed therto will show . I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church , in Doctour Reynolds ; as a Man , who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne ; And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford . I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour , whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare ; & to whom ( as being of good temperance in his writings , in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers ) I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle ; only I wish , his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much . If any of you shall muse , why in these Dialogues all the Protestants ( being otherwise presumed to be most learned ) do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments , as here you shall find them to do : you are to conceaue , that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours , to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants , vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted . Now both the Cardinall and Michae●s ( for the most part ) do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances , by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants ; as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles , from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants , speaking in those points agaynst themselues , and in behalfe of the Catholickes . Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues , how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply , agaynst the Caidinall , or agaynst Michaeas ? But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue : And here I do auouch , that to maintayne , that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther ( though euen then it was not in it perfection ) is no lesse absurd in reason ; then to maintayne , that , the byrth of any thing can precede it conception ; and the effect the cause . True it is , that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret ( and indeed blind ) Moules , who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church , haue labored to cast vp some earth of innouations and noueltyes , comparting perhapps in some one or two points with the sectar●es of these dayes : But to iustify in those men the visibility of the Protestant Church , or that they were Protestants ) which is at this present the poynt only issuable ) I hould it impossible ; Except we will dreame , that those persons did pertake of the nature of the planet Mercury ; which euer participateth ( as the Astrologers teach ) of all the influences of that other starre or planet , with which it is in any sort in coniunction . Be it then , that some Innouatours in seuerall Centuryes haue contumactously defended some one or other Theoreme or principle , without which the entyre frame of Protestancy cannot subsist ; Will any of you from hence conclude ( and yet many Protestants do so conclude ) that such Mens Religion was perfect Protestancy ? By the like reason you may inferre ( to insist in similitudes within your owne spheare ) that Vnity is a Number ; a Poynt , Quantity ; & an Instant , Tyme : Wheras you know well , that these are only beginnings or Elements of Number , Quantity , and Tyme ; and without which these later can haue no being . In regard then of such want of visible Protestants , informer tymes , It is lesse wounder , that some Protestant wryters haue thought good to Idëate & frame in their mynd● a certayne mathematicall and airy Church , within which a number only of supposed inuisibilities are comprehended . Thus much touching this second Dialogue ; to the which I haue thought good to subnect ( as an Appendix ) a short view , taken of an Anonymous and froathy Pamphlet entituled : A Treatise of the perpetuall visibility and succession of the true Church , in al Ages ; written some few yeares since and set forth ( as is supposed ) by Doctour Featly . Now in this last place , to come to the third and last Dialogue ; The subiect whereof is to manifest , that the Protestants ( by many degrees ) stand more iustly chargeable , both with the doctrine and practise of disloyalty , agaynst their lawfull Princes , then the Catholiks do : And that the Protestants haue therefore small reason ( and lesse policy ) to vpbrayde in their pulpits , and writings ( as it is their accustomed Scene to doe ) the Catholicks with any such hatefull cryme . In this last Dialogue are also seuerall insertions of some small Treatises , in defence of diuers Catholike doctrines . ) The Interlocutours in this Dialogue are the right Honorable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England ( to whom all dutifull comportment is borne throughout this Discourse ) Michaeas , the former Iew , and M. Vice-Chancelour of Oxford . That the Vice-Chacelour is therein introduced to be partly malignant agaynst Michaeas ( as charged by him besides with other offences for being a Catholike Priest ) is not strange ; considering how splenfull some Vice-Chancelours of that Vniuersity haue borne themselues , towards certayne Priests , there heretofore apprehended . Thus farre particularly of the different subiects of these ensuing Dialogues ; Which point is more largly set downe in the Arguments of euery one of them . Now ( most illustrious Men ) I haue presumed ( and I hope this my presumption will in your fauourable construction be warrantable ) to dedicate this whole worke to your selues ; not for your patronage thereof , for that only it owne worth ( If any be in it ) must effect ; but partly because you are best able to iudge of the arguments produced on eyther side ; and partly , in regard I haue selected out of eyther of your Vniuersities , one of the most pryme and choysest men in their dayes to be speakers in these Dialogues ; I meane ( as aboue is sayd ) Doctour Whitakers and Doctour Reynolds . I could wish , you would not sleight it , through a cold seuerity , proceeding from a forestauled iudgment against the Catholike fayth in generall ; but peruse it indifferently , and weigh the authorityes and reasons withall Candour and impartiality . Touching my owne sincerity , vsed throughout this labour ; know you , that if I haue purposely and deliberatly detorted from it true meaning , but any one authority here produced by me ; then let my forhead be publikly seared with an indeleble Stigma or print of shame and Confusion . No. He is not Religious , who handleth Religion with fraud and impostures . And I am so free and guiltles herein , as that I dare vaunt my selfe to be in this respect a b Tetragonon ; cast me vp what way you will , my demeanour ( in this case ) will proue eauen & squared . Do not expect any Oratory here , but what the force of vnauoydable Demonstrations can perswade ; And in this sence ( I trust , I may , without vanity say ) you shall find Oratory ; Since Truth is euer eloquent . But now ( most celebrious Academians ) giue me leaue to turne my pen more particularly to your selues , and pardon this my boldnes ; it proceeding solely out of my charitable affection , and out of my desire of aduancing your spirituall Good : for you are c Our Epistle , written in our harts . Well then , you are learned , and therefore ( if grace assist ) the more able to transpierce through any difficulties of Fayth , now questioned . Suffer not then your Iudgements to be enthralled to the iudgments of some few men among you , more eminent , then the rest ; they being Byrds , whose Aery is but in the high Cedars of the pretended reuealing Spirit ; since through their assumed priuiledge therof , they are not ashamed to reduce the construction of Scripture , and the weight of all authorityes whatsoeuer , to the Tribunall of their owne Censure ; scornfullly contemning whatsouer passeth not vnder the fyle of their owne approbation . But to proceed forward . It is a thing wounderfull ( and indeed deplorable ) to obserue the the exorbitancy of most Schollers proceedings ( and perhapps of diuers of you ) in these poynts ; I meane , to see , what labour and toyle they bestowe in humane studyes , and how remisse they are in search of true fayth . I assure my selfe , that many of you haue indefatigably spent much tyme in seeking to know : Whether the Opinions of Copernicus touching the Motion of the Earth and standing still of the sunn and Primum Mobile , can be made probable ? Whether a Concentrike Orbe with an Epicycle , or an Excentrike Orbe alone , can better salue the Phaynomena and irregular Apparences of the Planetts ▪ Whether ech Orbe be moued a Propria Intelligentia , or ab interna forma ? Whether , supposing Infinitum to be in Rerum natura , One Infinitum can be greater , then an other ? Which poynt some Philosophers exemplify in the infinit reuolutions of the Sunne and the Moone ; the Moone performing her course twelue or 13. tymes in that space , in which the Sunne doth but once : And yet both their reuolutions must be infinit in Number ; if one will grant with Aristotle , that the world was ab aeterno : Whether Corpus Sphaericum tangit planum , only in puncto ? What is the cause , why the Sea keepeth a different course in it ebbing & flowing in different Countreyes ; though to those seuerall Countreyes the Moone beareth one and the same aspect of it light ? Whether , when the loadstone draweth iron vnto it , this be effected through a naturall Sympathy of these two Bodyes , or only through the proper forme of the loadstone ? And Whether the turning of the irons point to the North ( being touched with the loadstone ) is to be referred to some huge supposed mountayne of loadstone in the vttermost Northparts ; or to any one place of the Heauens neere to the Northpole ; or to the intrinse call forme of the loadstone it selfe ? Whether Algebra be a distinct Art from Arythmetyke ; or but the same , aduanced to it height and perfection ? Whether in the miracles of Christ and S. Peter , exhibited in curing of corporall diseases ( and the like may be demanded of all true miracles of this nature ) God did for the tyme infuse a Physicall quality ( for example ) in the skirt of our Sauiours garment , & in the shadow of S. Peter , which per potentiam obedientialem ( as the Scholemen speake ) did worke vpon the diseases , and so cure them ; Or els God himselfe did immediatly worke these supernaturall effects , ad praesentiam illorum , at the presence of the skirt and shadow , which in their absence otherwise he would not worke ? And finally ( to omit diuers others such nyce and abstruse speculations , and but to touch a little vpon Diuinity ) Whether Communicatio Idiomatum , flowing from the Hypostaticall vnion in Christ , is reall in respect of the different natures in Christ ; or with reference only to the Hypostasis of both the Natures ? In these ( I say ) and many such like curiosities ( for so I may tearme them ; this last only excepted ) diuers of you haue no doubt spent ( and perhaps with great commondation ) many howres by perusing with your owne eyes seuerall Authours , & by discussing the arguments brought on all sides to fortify their different opinions : And yet it mattereth litle , on which syde the Truth lyeth in most of these speculations ; But wheresoeuer it is found in them , we may equally and indifferently breake forth with the three Children in praysing of God , for his Omnipotency and Wisdome , discouered in them ; saying , d Benedicite Omnia opera Domini Domino . If then you haue bene so industrious and breathles herein , and so absorpt in the delight of these lesse necessary studyes , O with what a spirituall Leithargy are such of you possessed , who in matters of Religion ( the truth or falshood wherof concerns your soules interminable and endles happynes or misery ) shall runne on headlong , till you come to your graues in an vnexamined and yet resolued opinion agaynst the Catholike fayth , with a supine resignation of your iudgments in all poynts of Religion ( without further tryall ) to the wrytings ( for example ) of Caluin and Beza ; whose pestiferous Scripts many make their Catechismes ? Men charged ( euen by their owne e Brethren ) with the execrable cryme of Sodomy : And remember you not , that we f gather not grapes of thorns , nor figs of thisles ? But herewith ( most excellent Academians ) I will end ; and craue pardon for this my fulnes of speach , entreating you to call to mynd those words : meliora g sunt vulnera diligentis , quam fraudulenta oscula odientis . And thus remitting you to the perusall of these following Dialogues , I will with my incessant prayers solicit the Highest , ( who is h Pater luminum ; and from whom , Omne datum optimum , & omne bonum perfectum descendit ) so to enlighten your iudgements in your studyes and courses ; that after this life , you may be as truly beatifyed with the Intuitiue knowledge of all things , in the most happy vision of God ; As now here vpon earth , you labour to enrich your mynds , mith all commendable Discursiue knowledge . Yours in Christ Iesus . I. C. THE CONVERTED IEW. OR A DIALOGVE WHEREIN IS PROOVED , That the Church of ROME hath made no change in Faith , and Religion , since the first Plantation of it by the Apostles . INTERLOCVTOVRS , MICHEAS A IEWISH RABBIN , CARDINALL BELLARMINE DOCTOVR WHITAKERS , MICHEAS . MOST ILLVSTRIOVS CARDINAL , and most reuerend and learned Doctour . Such is the spreading fame of both your perfections in the sacred knowledge of Deuinity , as that the report therof hath ( I confesse ) euen giuen wings to my old age , to hasten my fleight to this noble Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia ; which , as being honored through both your presence , is for the time become the Rendeuous of all good literature . Touching my selfe , know you both , that I am by birth , and ( till this present ) also in Religion , a Iew ; by name Micheas , who euer haue honoured the Lord a of Hoasts , the God b of Abraham , the God of Isaack , the God of Iacob , and the Lord God of the Hebrews ; beleeuing with your Apostle Paul , God grant with the like happy successe to him in change of my Religion , who by his rysing faule , as I may tearme it , was no sooner strucken downe to the ground , then he began to ascēd towards Heauen , all c things , that are written in the Law , and the Prophets , and d instructed according to the verity of the , Law , of the Fathers . Of late I haue diligently perused , the writings of your Euangelists ( the foure Historigraphers of that Holy Man , whome you Christians call Iesus : I also haue exactly red the Acts of your Apostles ; these faithfull seruants of the said Iesus , who first sowed the seedes of their Maisters heauenly doctrine , and after did watter them with their owne bloud : To be short , I haue bene much conuersant in these Letters Missiues ( if so they may be called ) I meane , in the Epistles of the said Apostles , written to diuers Nations , for their better instruction in the Christian Faith ; as also in that most abstruse worke of your Sauiours Best-beloued , commonly called the Apocalyps . I haue made most particuler reference of all those writings , to the Prophesies recorded in our owne Law : and I do freely confesse ( and indeede with an ineffable griefe ) that , that Holy One , whome my Fore-Fathers ( and in them my selfe ) did put to the most opprobrious death of the Crosse , was , and is the Sonne of the Highest , and the true Sauiour of the World ; and therefore I thinke it the lesse wounder , that the stony harts of vs Iewes ( best discouered by such our cruell proceedings ) were figured by the Tables of Stones , wherin the Law was first giuen to vs. Yea I am so inalterably perswaded herein , that I do auouch , that all the cheife Particularities concerning him , were most punctually prophesied by the Antient Fathers of the Iewish Law : Thus ( for example ) was his Precursor foretold in Esay . cap. 40. That he should be borne of a Virgine Esay . 7. The place of his birth , Micheas , 5. The death of the Cheldren at his birth , Ierom. 31. His preaching , Esay . 61. His foure Eunngelists , Ezechiel . 1. The chusing of his Apostles , Psalm . 8. His riding vpon an Asse into Ierusalem , Esay . 62. and Zachary . 9 , The betraying of him by him , who dipped his hand in the dish , Psalm . 41. The Iewes spittiug in his Face , and buffeting of him , Esay . 50. The Iewes mocking of him , Psalm . 22. The deuiding of his garmēts . Psalm . 22. Their giuing to him gaule and Vinegar to drinke , Psalm . 69. The manner of his death , by piercing his hands and feete , Psalm . 22. His staying in the graue three dayes , Ionas . 2. His Resurrection , Psalm . 15. and 132. His Ascēti●n , Psalm . 109. Finally , ( to omitt diuers other lesser passages ) The descending of the Holy Ghost , Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premis●es , I do fully acknowledg , that in him , and by him ▪ our Law , ( which did serue , but to shadow this time of Grace ) is now abrogated ; and therfore my selfe , as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratiōs of the trueth of your Chistian Religion , do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ ; do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe , a Christian ( though as yet , but an analogicall , and halfe Christian ) and with reference to the time of the Law , and the time of Grace , and the adumbration of the one in the other , I thinke , I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times : The Euangelicall Law , and the Leuiticall Ghospell ; since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied ; the Gohspel , the Law complet , and actually performed . CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby . I much reioyce at your change in Religion ; and indeed , that precise correspondency , which your selfe haue obserued ; betweene the Old Testamēt and the New ( wherby you may se , the Apostle had iust reason to say : e Omnia in figura contingebant illis ) is of force to corroborate , and strengthen you in our Christian Faith , against all those f spirituales nequitiae , or any other contrary assaults . For now you se , that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices , and Ceremonies is taken away , through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord , and Sauiour . Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination , and confesse with the chiefe Apostle , That g there is no other name vnder Heauen ( then that of Iesus ▪ ) giuen vnto Men , wherein we may be saued . D. WHITAKER . It is most true , which my Lord Cardinall hath said ; for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed , and indiuisible Trinity ; who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man ; who died , to the end , we should not dye : Christus h semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata ▪ hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death , euen the death of the Crosse . for i which thing God hath exalted him , and hath giuen him a name , which is aboue all Names ; that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen , in Earth , and vnder the earth : Therefore he is to be your cornerstone , wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation . And comfort your selfe ( Micheas ) with this , that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death , yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian . MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue . But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion , one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me . I se you Christians , though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine ; yet through your many Controuersies in Religion , do rest deuided amongst your selues ( like so many distracted , and disordered troupes , or sqadrōs ) not affording Saluation on to an other : soe as from whence I am departed , I do well know , but what part to follow , I am most vncertaine . And though I firmly beleeue , that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued ; yet withall I as cnnstātly beleeue , that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ , shall not be saued . Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the Protestāt , for his destroying , and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion , to wit , the Doctrine of Free-will , of Purgatory , of Praying to Saincts , of Merit of workes , and ( to omit many other controuerted points ) the Reall Presence in the Eucharist , and Sacrafice of the Alter ; and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick . The Protestant ( on the other side ) for the Catholicke his mantaining , and beleeuing the said points , doth style him Superstitious , Idolatrous , and , as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation . And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant , and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary ( the one constantly affirming , the other peremptorily denying ( as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede . Here now my deuided Soule ( licke the dissressed prisoner , who hauing broken the Iaile , knoweth not what way to flie , for his best refuge ) tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines , is ignorant towards what shoore to saile , if I be a Protestant , I can be no Catholicke ; If a Catholicke , I am no Protestant ; The on I can but be , both I cannot be . That threatens to me the brand of , Heresy ; this of Superstitiō , and Idolatry : O God , that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides , with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements . But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour : Vt in * pessimis aliquid boni , sic in optimis nonnihil mali . CARDINALL BELLARMINE . True it is , that there are many differences in Christian Religion ; and each good mans greife is hereby the greater : for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation ; and valew of them ; contention about Faith ( in a vulgar eye ) lesneth it . But these ( you are to conceiue , Micheas ) take their course not from the Faith of Christ ; ( for it is but one : vna k fides , vnum baptisma ) but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments , which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities , both Deuine , and Humane . Therfore ( Micheas ) the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion , which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate , and intangle you , build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion , principally vpon Gods sacred Word , as it is propounded , and interpreted by Christ his Church ; and to her repaire in all your doubts , since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words : dic c Ecclesiae , et Ecclesiam non audieret , sit tibi sicut Ethnicus , et Publicanus . Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions , which are deriued through a continued hand of time , euen from the Apostles : Id m ab initio . quod ab Apostolis : for it is true , that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture ; but it is as true , that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours , against Scripture . Read the Generall Councels , with whome Christ is euer present , for he hath promised , when but two n or three are geathered togeather in his name ( much more when seuerall hundreds ) he well be in the middest with them ; and obserue the Heresies condemned in them : Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers ; and remember that sentence : Interroga o de diebus antiquis . assuring your selfe , that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them , is agreable to the Faith , first taught by Christ , and his Apostles . Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church , which the Apostle himselfe ( for our greater security ) hath honored with the title of Columna , p et Firmamentum veritatis ; And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men , who thinke to shew their loue to the Truth , by their hate to this Pillar , and Foundation of Truth . Besides , this deportment disculps great Humility ; a Character euen of Christ himselfe : dicite q a me , quia humilis sum corde . so true it is , that an humble man is like to a lowly vally , sweetly seated . Thus doing ( Micheas ) no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith ; of which point I am in greater hope ; in that it is obserued , that whereas many r Protestants haue becom Iewes , yet not any Iew a Protestant . D. WHITAKER . The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope ; since most of these are but humane , and morall inducements , which stand subiect to errour , and falshood , and you are to call to minde , that to run well out of the right way , is noe better , then to stand still : s Pálin dromêsan , ' è dramêin cacôs . Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ , only the Holy Scriptures . These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies : These are of that worth , as that they are profitable ( as the Apostle t speaketh ) To Doctrine , to reprooue , to correction , to instruction , which is in righteousnes , that the man of God may be perfect , instructed in all good workes : of that Clearenes , as that iustly they may be called ; lucerna u pedibus meis : Of that fulnes , and amplitude , as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted x out of the booke of life if we either add , or detract from thence : finally of that easines , and facility , as that for picking out the true sence , we are to , receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit , instructed by the Holy Ghost : y spiritus vbi vult , spirat . MICHEVS . You both speake learnedly . And first touching your directions ( my L. Card. ) I hold them most graue & waighty . Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law , and the Prophets ( being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue ) and seing that multiplity of reading , which your method exacts , ( to wit of the Auntient Fathers , the Generall Councels , Ecclesiasticall Histories ) is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age ( my selfe not likely to liue so many years , as will be answerable to so infinit a labour ) Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short , and abreuiated course , for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion . Touching your graue aduice ( M. Doctour ) of relying only vpon the Writen word . Grant , that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define , and determine all Controuersies in Religion ; yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein , as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one , and the same text , I should euer rest doubtfull ( once abandoning the sence , giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce ; and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe , That no Prophesy z of the Scriprure is made , by priuat Intepretation . And sure I am , that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament , according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs , we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto , that I am the more easily thus perswaded , euen by both your speches at this present ; seing both of you do strengthen , and fortifie your different iudgments ( touching the finall determining of Controuersies ) euen from the Scripture it selfe . But what ? doth the Scripture speake different ( or rather contrary things ? ) Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture ; euer the same , and vnchāgable : Ego a sum dominus , et non mutor . And indeede to speake plainly , when you vrge those words : spiritus vbi vult , spirat . whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit , interpreting the Scripture , I euer disliked this Principle ( euen before I beleeued in Christ ) as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other : so that , that man , who for his Faith , and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit , and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion , which himselfe best pleaseth , is like ( in my iudgment ) to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter , then of the Elements well tempred togeather ; since he is in possibility , Anything . But to proceede : seing the directions of neither of you ( in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them ) can at this present sorte vnto my case , I must make election of some other method , for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith. And ( vnder both your fauours ) it shal be this , wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament ( as you Christians call it ) I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes , a Christian , though as yet , but a Christian imperfect , and scarsly initiated : So out of the same deuine Records , I am instructed , that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith , incontaminate and free from all errour . Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me , for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith ; then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment , that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome . This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule , who in his Epistle to the Romans , much celebrateth the Faith of Rome , saying : b To all , that be at Rome the beloued of God , called to be Saints , Grace to you . And againe I thanke c my God for you , &c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world . And yet more : your d obdience is published in euery place . finally , the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans , as that he particularly euen in words , ascribs one , and the same Faith to himselfe , and them saying : That , e which is common to vs both , your Faith , and mine . From all which texts it is euicted , that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith. Now here it comes to be examined , whether Rome , since her first embracing of it , hath changed her Faith ; or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine , which first the Apostles did plant in her . This point ( most excellent Men ) deserus an exact discussing , and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs : My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories ( from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall ) doth pleade for my ignorance herein , and makes my humble request ( for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment ) to you both , to enter into a graue skirmish , and feight of disputation herein . Both of you are learned , and therefore ( by vrging what can be said on either side ) able to accomplish this my desire : both of you are charitable , ( as I must suppose ) and therefore ( no doubt ) willing ( for my confirmation in the Christian Faith ) to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity ( as euer desirous to do good ) omnia f sperat , sustinet ; & a charitable man partakes of the nature of a glasse , which is as ready to giue , as to receaue on s fauour . My foundation is here the words of your owne Apostle ; I humbly entreate , that your learned discourses would raise the wales , and I shall attend your speeches with a greedy , and listning eare . Then in the close of all I may be better assured , whether for my Soules eternall felicity , I should subiect my selfe , as a member to the present Church of Rome ; or otherwise consociate my selfe with the Protestants ; the presumed Reformers of the said Church . CARD . BELLARM. Micheas , your iudgment hath made choise of a most important subiect , and Christian Religion teacheth vs to be benificiall to all , maximè g domesticis fidei , within which number , I hope shortly , I may place you . And therefore my paines ( according to my smale ability ) shall not be wanting to accomplish your request ; and I much commend your desire herein ; for who neglecteth his owne Soule , is not present to himselfe . D. WHITAKERS . The Groundworke ( Micheas ) of this your desired disputation I acknowledg most firme ; and I shal be ready to afford my best furtherāce therto , though in regard of my owne smale mite of learning , I shal be like ( perhapps to the widdow in the Chospel , who gaue lesse , then any other , and yet was more charitable , then any other . But touching the Basis , and foundation of this future Discourse , We do h grant , that the Church of Rome was holy , when Paule gaue it those foresaid praises ; as also when he further said : without intermission I make mention of you alwaies in my prayers . When also he i said : He would k come to the Romans in aboūdance of the blessing of Christ ; and when in freedome he did preach to them the Ghospel of Christ . Yea which is more : We l freely confesse , that the Cuhrch of Rome was a famous Church of Christ , when Clemence did sit in that seate , and when the prophane Roman Caesars did put to death the Bishops of Rome . But since those times , that most remarkable change of Faith haue violently inuaded , and posessed that Church , I will vndertake to prooue , neither will I draw backe herein , but shal be prepared to manifest to you , how since the Apostles times , the Roman m Wolues haue inuaded the Church , and ceased not to deuoure the flocke ; for the badges of the Roman Church are superstition , Infidelity , Antichrist , and Epicurisme . CARD . BELLARM. How now M. Doctour . Such passion in the beginning ? what Philippicks , and inuectiue declamations are these ; the accustomed lāguage of most of our new illuminated Brethren , not sorting to your presumed grauity ? Therefore either forbeare the like hereafter , or let vs forbeare to enter into any dispute : for I do not loue to conuerse with those Men , whose tongues are vsed to speake nothing but Satyrs . D. WHITAKERS . My Lord. my feruour to the Ghospel hath thus transported me : The n zeale of thy howse hath eaten me vp : But pardon ( for euer ) this my holy impatience , and I will promise you to proceede hereafter in all serenity , and mildnes ; and will prooue the change of Religion in the Church of Rome , not by conuitiating it with intemperate language , but with weight of argument . CARD . BELLARM. You say well . And therefore In the name of the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy Ghost , let vs beginne . And here first M. Doctour , you are to remember , that seing you affirme , that Religion is changed in the Church of Rome , since that Church was first ( as it were ) cultiuated , & tilled therewith by the labour of the Apostles ; you are thereby obliged to prooue this your assertion ; And I ( as houlding the Negatiue ) am bound only to answere , and to repell your arguments . Neuerthelesse I will supererogate with you in methode herein , and will vndertake to prooue posituely , that Rome since it first being Christian , did neuer speake of so much , as any on materiall , and dogmaticall Article , ( which is the point in question ) of her primatiue Faith. Now for the greter conuinceing of your contrary position , I meane to strengthen and fortifie the truth herein , euen from the testimonies of your owne learned Men : and thus the Protestants penns shall deadly wound the Protestants Faith. Therefore tell me ( M. Doctour ) if you will quietly subscribe in this time of disputation , to the ingenious , and plaine Confession of your owne learned , and iudicious Brethren . D. WHITAKERS Most willingly : for o the argument must needs be strong , and efficatious , which is taken from the confession of the Aduersaries ; and I do freely acknowledg , that the Truth is able to extorte testimonies euen frō it Enemies . And this point is further warranted with all force of reason : for why should learned men confesse against themselues , and in behalfe of their Aduersaries , were it not that the racke of an vndeniable Truth forceth them theirto ? CARD . BELLARM. It is most true , and the matter so standeth indeede ; and your speech well sorteth to that sentence of S. Augustine ; to wit , That p truth is more forcible to wringe out Confession , then any racke or torment . well then to proceede to the matter . And because things contracted in method , enter more easily ( after a piramic all manner , as I may say ) into the eye of the vnderstanding ; Therefore for the more facilitating of this point here handled , you are to coceiue ( M. Doctour ) that in any notable change of Religion , these things following can be demonstrated and pointed out . q First , the Authour of such a Change. Secondly . the new opinion or doctrine . Thirdly , the time , in which this new doctrine was first broahed , or preached . Fourthly , the place , in which it was taught . Fiftly , and lastly , the persons , who did oppugne , and resist it at the first : All which are found euen in the Church of Christ , which neuerthelesse was no new Church , but only a certaine mutation or change of the state of the Church , according to the predictions of the Prophets . For first we knowe , the authour thereof was Christ ; The new Articles of beleefe were principally , the Articles of the Trinity , and Incarnation ; the time , when this doctrine was first preached , was in the fifteenth yeare of Tyberius Caesar ; The place Iudëa ; finally the oppugners of it were the Scribes , and Pharises . Now whereas we are able to demonstrate all these points in the beginning of euery particular sect , or Heresie ; our Aduersaries notwithstanding cannot set downe any one of these circumstances concerning our Church or Faith , euer since the Apostles times . But because of all these Circumstances , the Time of this supposed chāge is chiefly to be weighed , I will begin therewith , remitting diuers of the other Circumstances to be hereafter discussed by vs ; and leuing the rest for greater breuity to some other fitting opertunity . And as touching the Circumstances of Time , I will first discourse therof by meanes of a distribution of three distinct times since Rome first receaued the Ghospel of Christ . First then , we will take into our consideration , how longe it is granted by your Protestants , that Rome did perseuer without any alteration in her prematiue Faith. Secondly we will enquire , and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time , during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued ; That is , how longe Papistry ( as you commonly tearme it ) hath bene publikly professed , and taught throughout all Christendome . Thirdly and lastly , we will then take a view of the times , betweene these two former seuerall times : for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides ( to wit , the time , during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles , and the time , during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward ) it ineuitably followeth , that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium , and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times , or els , that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all . Now concerning the first of these times , how long ( in the Protestants iudgements ) M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine , or alteration in any point of moment , or Article of beliefe ( for that only is to be enquired ) the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles ? D. WHITAKERS . I will confesse in all ingenuity , that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach , that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated , till after the deaths of Optatus , Epiphanius , and Augustine , which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ . CARD . BELLARMINE You say most truely , and I do like your playnesse herein , since he is truely politike ( espetially in matters of Religion , which require all candour in theire menaging ) who is not politicke . For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted , that Tertullian , prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome , your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation , in these words : The r argument then drawne from Succession was good , because the Church of Rome retained ( by Succession vntill Tettullians dates ) that Faith , which it did first receaue from the Apostles . To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe ( M. Doctour ) in your booke writen against me subscribs , thus saying : from hence s we do vnderstād why Tertulliā did appeale to those Churches ; to wit , because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession . But to descend further in time , touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumēt , drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus , Cyprian , Optatus , Hierome , Vincentius Lyrinensis , and Augustine , ( all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome , still continued till their daies ) your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort : That these t Fathers especially named the Church of Rome , it was , because the Church of Rome at that time , as it was founded by the Apostles ; so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles . With whome accordeth D. lewell , saying : Aswell Augustine , as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome &c. for the purity of Religion , which was there preserued a lōg time without spot . To conclude , Caluine himselfe ( euen in the same manner ) answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê , insisted vpon by Irenaeus , Tertullian , Origen , u Augustine , Optatus , Epiphanius , and others ; for thus Caluine speaketh : Cùm extra x controuersiam esset , nihil à principio vsque ad aet●●tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina &c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine , frō the beginning to that very age was changed ; these holy Fathers did take that , which they thought sufficient , for the destroying of all new Errours ; ( to wit , ) the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent , retayned euen from the Apostles dayes , till their tymes . Thus Caluine . To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence : out of D. Fulke , saying : The y Popish Church &c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ , long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe ; Thus he granting , that till S. Augustins death , the Church of Rome was the true Church : so euident and clere ( we se ) it is , that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it , vntill the times of S. Augustin , Epiphanius , Optatus &c. which was ( as is aboue sayd ) foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ . Thus farre ( M. Doctor ) concerning the durance of the tymes ( euen by the Protestants frequent confessions ) that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome ; Tonching which poynt Irefere you ( for greater satisfaction ) to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers , to wit , of z Hierome , a Ire●aeus , b Augustine , c Vincentius Lyr●ne●sis , d Ambrose &c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre , that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth ; and consequently , was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration . Now all this being made thus euident , it followeth according to our designed Method , that we consider the number of those ages , during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards , the present Roman Fayth hath ( by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants ) bene generally taught : Seing how long the Protestants ) bene generally taught : Seing how long the Protestants do grant , that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith ; so long it followeth , by their owne implicit censures , and most necessary inferences , that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth : Therfore ( M. Doctour ) I would know of you , what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance , and antiquity of our present Roman , and Catholicke Religion . D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth , for a thousand yeares at least ; For first D. Humfry ( my worthy e sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes ) shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England , being sent by Gregory the Great , then Pope of Rome ( who liued in the yeare 590 ) thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion : In f Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus ? Onus ceremoniarum &c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church ? They did bring a burden of Ceremonies ; They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall , for the solemnization of the Masse ; They did bring in Purgatory &c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast , and prayer for the dead &c. Relicks , Transubstantiation &c. a new conscecratiō of Temples &c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences , Monachisme . Papisme , and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition ? all this did Augustine the great Monke ( being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke ) bring to the English men . Thus farre D. Humfry . CARD . BELLARM. Well then , M. Doctour , it clearely appeares by this , that at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England ( which was about a thousand yeares since ) our present Roman Religion was then wholy , and publickely practised in Rome ; & that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles , that this change should haue beene made , not since , but before Gregories time , and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ . I may adde , M. Doctour , in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein , the iudgment of your owne Centurists , who in their Index , or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century , at the Word : Gregory , set downe with particuler figures ofreferences , where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus , de Cōfessione , de cōiugio , de Ecclesia , de sanctorum ●nuocatione , do Inferno , de Libero arbitrio , de ●ustificatione , de Purgatorio , de Paeni●entia , de satisfactione &c. And which is more , your sayd Cēturists g do further accuse Gregory , out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars , Chalices , & Corporals , with oblatiō of sacrifice for the dead , with translation of Reltques , with Monachisme , with Pilgrimages , with consecration of Churches , with Masse , & spri●kling of holy-water , With consecration of the fort of Baptisme , of Chr●●s●●e & Oyle , with celibratio of Masse , & finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches : All which places of the Centurists , charging him , are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof . To these former acknowledgmēts , we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander ( your famous Protestant ) which are these : Augustinus h Romanos Ritus et consuetudines , Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit : And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites , & doctrines , practized , and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome ; which ( as he confesleth ) Augustine did plant , & establish in England : a poynt so euident , that euen your owne selfe , M. Doctour , auertes , i that Boniface the third , ( who liued anno . 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory ) and all his successours were Antichrists . Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England , ( made by this Gregory ) and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after , thus conclude . The Conuersions k of so many countries were not pure , but corrupt . With you herein Dauaeus ( that remarkable Protestant ) conspirech , who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England : Purgatio illa , quam Gregorius primus fecit &c. fuit i●ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta , de qua est Apocalips . 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity , to the worke of Antichrist . And thus , M Doctour , you here may see , how the Church of God ( through an ouer vnkind peruerting , and misconsturing her most motherly , and charitable endeauours ) hath reason even to complaine , and grieue at those , who vaunt themselues for her owne Children : so the Vine being vntimely cut , weeps out its mishap , through out it owne wound . Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe , M. Doctour , & other Protestant writers , we may infallibly conclude , that from this day till we arriue , at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory , the present Roman , & Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries ; & consequently ( seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome ) that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome , as an Innouation , and change of the Faith , afore professed by the said Church . Now it being made euident ; first , that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith , the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ ; and also , that for this last thousand yeares , the present Romā , & Catholicke Faith , hath not ( at any time thereof ) bin first brought into the world ; but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome : It now followeth , that we take into our consideratiō the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred , and forty from Christ , and these last thousand yeares from vs. Which number ( seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares , & some more from Christ to vs ) amounteth to about one hundred , and sixty yeares . Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome , within the compasse of this 160. yeares ; then followeth it vnauoidably , that the Church of Rome neuer to this day , hath suffered any alteration in Fayth , and Religion , since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth . That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares , I prooue seuerall waies , yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth ; like as diuers lesser numbers ( though counted after different waies ) make vp but one , and the same great number . And first , this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine , which was beleeued , and generally taught at such tyme , as Constantine ( who was our first Christian Emperour ) was conuerted to Christianity , which was about the yeare 320. after Christ , and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares . That the Faith in his time , was the same , that the Church of Rome professeth at this present , appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists ; who most elaborately , & punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth , to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine ; and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies , now vsed in the Church of Rome . And the said Centurists are so exact , and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine , and of the Catholicke Rites , and Ceremo ies obserued in his time ; as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point ; to wit , from Column . 452. to Column . 497. or thereabout . Now that not only Constantine himselfe , but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue , and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church , is in like sort abundantly confessed , & registred by the said Centurists , they spending most of the leaues of the said Century , in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines , and the doctours of that age beleeuing , & teaching them : and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point , I remit you , M. Doctour , to the ●●ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century : touching which particuler subiect , I am so confident that I dare auouche , that by the industry of the said Centurists , the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully , & articulatly ( according to my former speaches registred ) as the perfect memory thereof ( as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes ) is able to turne the syth of time : so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories ( so long as they shal be extant ) the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times . But , M. Doctour , for the greater euidency of this point , I pray you tell me , whether it is your iudgment , that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age ; but especially those who liued before the fourth Age , and consequently , before the aboue mentioned 160. yeares ) were Professours of your Protestant , or our Roman Faith. D. WHITAKERS . I make no doubt , but all of them professed with a generall consent our Protestant Fayth , & knew not the present Doctrine , and Faith of Rome . CARD . BELLARM. See how fowly you are mistaken , M. Doctour , And therefore seeing the discouery of errours is an establishment of the Truth : for the fuller manifesting of your ouer sight herein , I will insist ( for greater breuity ) only in six chiefe Articles of the Catholicke Faith , for a tast of the rest ; which euen by your owne Brethrens Confessions , were mantained by the Fathers liuing in the fourth age ; frō whence we may necessarily inferre , that not any change touching those points was , brought into the Church of Rome , within the compasse of the said 160. years . And first I will beginne with the doctrine of the Sacrifice of the Masse : where ( as also in other Articles following I will discerpe here , & there , out of the great abundance thereof , some few acknowledgments of the Protestants . Now here you cannot deny , M. Doctour , but that touching Cyprian ( who liued Anno 240. your Centurists thus affirme : Sacerdotē l Cyprianus in quit vice Christi furgi ; et Deo Patri Sacrificium offerre ; & for this very point they condemne him of Superstition . In like sort , they thus reprehend Ambrose : ( who liued anno . 370. ) m Ambrose did vse certaine speaches &c. as to say Masse , to offer vp Sacrifice . Yea D. Fulke conspireth openly with the former Protestants thus speaking of these Fathers following : Tertullian , n Cyprian , Augustine , Hierome , ( of which some liued within the said 160. yeares , others long afore them ) do witnesse , that Sacrifice for il●e dead is a Tradition of the Apostles . To be short ; Sebastianus Francus ( no obscure Protestant among you ) thus writeth : o statim post Apostolo , omnia inuersa surt &c. Caena Domini in Sacrificium transformata est . Touching the Primacy of the Bis●op of Rome , your Centurists do reprehend p Nazianzen q Cyprian r Origen , and s Tertullian for their teaching of Peters Primacy . In like sort Pope Victor ( who liued in the yeare 160. after Christ ) did actually challenge , and practise this kind of Supremacy , as t D. Fulke acknowledgeth . Concerning praier for the dead , D. u Fulke thus writeth : Praier for the dead preuailed within three hundred years after Christ : And another of your owne Br●●hren thus confesseth : x Praier for the dead was in the Church long before Augustins , daies , as appeareth in Cyprian , & Tertullian . But D. y Fulke and z Kempnitius do confesse , that Prayer for the dead is taught in the writings of Dionysius Areopagita who is a mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles ; whose writing ( in which Praier for the dead is taught ) are acknowledged by D. Fulke b supposing them not to be written by the said Dionysius , as some Protestants are not ashamed to auerre ) to be writen about thirteen hundred yeares since . Touching Inuocation of Saints D. c Fulke confesseth , that in B●●sill , Nazia●zen , and Chrysos●ome is ●nuocatio● of Saints . The Centurists d thus write of Cypriā . Cypriā doth not obscurely signify , that Martyrs , & dead Saints did may for the liuing . Yea they further charge Origen ( Who liued in no , 2●0 ) with praying himselfe to holy Iob , saying e O beate Iob ora prouobis in seris ; They further f charge him with inuocation of Angels . They further thus concluding of that third age after Christ . videas g in Doctorum huius seculi scriptis , non obscura vestigta inuocationis Sanctorum , Touching Free-will . The foresaid Centurists h do reprehend Irenaeus ( who liued in the second age ) in that he admitteth ( as they say ) Free-well in spirituall actions . And i Osiander ( the Protestant ) thus saith of iustine ( who liued in the age of Irenaeus ) Iustine extolled too much the liberty of mans will , in obseruing the Commandements of God. To be short , another k of your brethren doth thus couple the ancient Fathers of those ages , saying Cyprian , Tertullian , Origen , Clemens Alexandrinus , Iustine . Irenaeus , &c. erred in the doctrine of Free-will . Lastly , touching the doctrine of Merit of workes , Luther l stileth Hierome , Ambrose , & Augustine , Iusticiarios Iustice-workers . In like sort the Centurists thus charge Origen , saying : Origen m made workes the Cause of our Iustification . To conclude , D. Humfrey thus confesseth of Irenaeus , & Clemens : ( the one liuing in the first age , the other in the second age after Christ , ) n It may not be denyed but that Irenaeus , Clemens , and others ( called Apostolicall ) haue in their writings the opinion of Merit of workes . Aud thus farre ( M. Doctour ) of some chiefe points of the present Roman Religion , taught by the Fathers : of whō some liued in the fourth age , and so within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares ; though most of them liued in the first , second , & third age of Christ ; from whence we necessarily euict , that no change of the Faith of Rome , in the said poynts , was made within the compasse of the sayd 120. yeares : which time was aboue set downe betweene the confessed period of the Churches Purity , and the acknowledged generally 〈…〉 ceiued doctrine of the now Church of Rome : And here but that I am willing to auoid all prolixity , I do assure you , I could auerre , & iustify the like , touching all other Catholicke doctrines , taught by the Fathers of the former ages and accordingly beleeued at this day by the Church of Rome . Yet before I end this point I will adioyne to the former proofs , this ensuing consideration , touching the fore said ●60 . yeares . It is this : if we consider either the plurallity of our Catholiche Articles ; or the incompatibility , which diuers of them beare , partly to the outward sense , & partly to mans naturall propension ; or the diuersity of Countries , & Nations in Christendome , most remote one from another ; all which cur said Catholicke Religion is acknowledged wholy to possesse , at the later end of the sixt Age , or Century ; I say if we consider all these different Circumstances , the time of the said ●60 yeares ( within which most Protestants do teach this supposed change did happen ) is infinitely too litle , and wholy disproportionable ; as that within the cōpasse thereof so great 〈◊〉 change , and alteration should be wrought ; especially in such an admirable manner , that whereas in the beginning of the said 160. yeares , it is auerred by the Protestants , that not any one point of our Catholicke Religion was then taught ; yet at the end of the said 160. yeares , it should so ouerflow all Christendome with such a violent streame , as that no sparke of Protestancy , ( supposing afore it were professed ) or any other Religion did remaine in any one Country , or other ; but that all was wholy extinct , and ( as I may say ) annihilated . Such an imaginary change , and alteration ( I say ) as this , is more then stupendious , and wonderfull ; and such , as since the creation of the world neuer afore hapned . But ( M. Doctour ) giue me leaue by the way , to aske of you the second time ( for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein ) how longe do you thinke , that the Church of Rome , did continue in her Verginall state , and Purity , without any stayne in her Faith. D. WHITAKERS . I thinke , o that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ , the Church was pure , florishing ; and inuiolably taught , and defended the Fayth , deliuered by the Apostles . During all which ages the Church of Christ ( in respect of truth in Faith , and Religion , was ( as I may say ) in the full assent of the wheele . And although ( to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens ; yet I am fully perswaded , that for the space of the first six hundred yeares , no annomalous exorbitancies of errours , or superstition , did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , indeed part of what you here say , are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders , and you deale more liberally herein , then diuers of your Breehren , by affording a hundred , and fifty yeares more to the true Church , then most of them will allow . Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome , for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ , do withall implicitly , and inferentially grant ; that no change of Faith was made in that Church , within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares ; seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares , as being part of them . But to proceed further ; you are here ( M. Doctour ) to call to minde , what your selfe at other times ( & no doubt ) at vnawares haue writen . I do finde ( to instance only in some two , or three points ) that you affirme , that Victor p who liued anno 160. after Christ ) was the first , that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches . That not Cyprian q only ( who liued anno . 240. ) to vse your owne words , but almost all the most holy Fathers , of that time , were in errour , touching the Doctrine of good works ; as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne , & to satisfy Gods iustice . Finally that r Leo ( who was Pope anno . 440. to speake in your owne dialect , was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome . Are not all these your assertions , M. Doctour . D. WHITTAKERS . I cannot but acknowledge them for mine ; since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes ; & loath I am to be so vnnaturall , as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne . CARD . BELLARM. Marke well then , M. Doctour , my deduction . If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares ( for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is , that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse ) And if ( as your owne penne hath left it written ) the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first : The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian , & generally by other Fathers of that age ; and to be short , if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist , you meaning of our present Roman Religion ( all which said Fathers , to wit , Cyprian , Victor , Leo , and the rest , did liue diuers ages before the sixt age , or Century , to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome ) doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses ( if al this be true , as you affirme it is , ) that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy , the doctrine of merit of workes , and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist , as you tearme the Pope , were no innouations ; but the same pure doctrines , which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome ? Se how your felfe ( through your owne inaduertēcy ) hath fortified the truth of that doctrine , which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow . And thus farre to show , that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome , prooued from the distribution & diuision of those two different times , which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments , do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth , & of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth . D. WHITTAKERS . My L. Cardinall . Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts , who teach , that in the second , third , & fourth age after Christ ; such & such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning ; It seemeth in my iudgment , that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause . Since such testimonies ( if so you will stand to them ) do shew a beginning ( though most anciēt ) of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths , and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome . For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants , granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times ; you are also ( by force of reason ) to admit their like authorities in saying ; that at such tymes ( and not before ) those Articles were first taught ; for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one , & the same sentence , or testimony , why should the one part thereof be vrged for true , and the other reiected as false ? MICHAEAS . M. Doctour . Here with my L. Cardinall , and your owne good licence . I am to make bould to put in a word or two . This your reply ( M. Doctour ) by way of inference , may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law ; and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof , though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you . Grant then , that some miscreants , or Heathen Writers ( as Enemies to the Law of Moyses ) affirme , that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras , for example ; This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient ( at least ) as Esdras ; but it cannot be alleadged to prooue , that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only , and not before in the dayes of Moyses . Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature , produced from our Aduersaries writinges , we are to distinguish , and seuer that , which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs , from that , which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage . What he grāteth for vs , & against himselfe , so farre we are to embrace his authority ; seing it may be presumed that , ordinarliy , no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe , & his Religion , but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto , and therefore one s of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church ( if I do remember his words ) in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons . But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause , and against vs ; their we are not to stand to his own , authority ; since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe , and it well may be presumed , that such his sentence proceedeth out of his owne partiality . Now this disparity ( M. Doctour ) you may well apply ( in my conceipt ) to the afore alleadged consessions and testimonies of your owne Protestants : But if I haue not here answeared directly , I submit my selfe to both your censures , and will leaue it to my L. Cardinall to giue fuller satisfaction and answere thereto . CARD . BELLARM. Learned Rabby . Your answere is most sufficient and warrantable ; and indeed a solid iudgment would easily dispell this smoake of wit ; and if you had not preuented me , I should but haue giuen the same answere , though perhaps not haue instanced it in your example of the Iewish Law. But enough of this argument , by which we are instructed , that the present Fayth of Rome was neuer changed since the Apostles daies ; for it is S. Augustines rule t That , that Fayth , which hath bin beleiued by the whole visible Church of God , and whereof no first beginning can be knowne since the Apostles , is presumed to haue bin first taught by Christ , and his Apostles . But , M. Doctour , if it please you , we will insist in another Medium ; from whence we will deduce our former affertion ; to wit , that during the first six huudred yeares after Christ ( and indeed during all the tyme since the Apostles ) the Church of Rome neuer made any change , or alteration in any one materiall poynt at all . And therefore I do here aske your iudgment , whether there must be ( at all tymes ) in Christs Church Pastours , and Doctours , which must teach the People , and be ready to withstand all innouations , and false doctrines at theire first appearance ? D. WHITTAKERS . Yes we all do teach , that there must euer be , and without interruption true Pastours in the church , who shall be ready to impugne all emergent , and late arrising Errours & Heresyes : So true it is , that the church is the s●and , from whence we strike an Hereticke . And this we prooue from the predictiō of the Apostle , who foretelleth vs that , u Pastours & Doctours , are to be in the Church , to the consummation of Saynts , till we all meete in the vnity of Fayth ; that is , as our owne Doctour Fulke x interpreteth : for euer . Which Doctours ( as our sayde D. Fulke further auerreth ) y shall alwayes resist all false Opinions , with open reprehension . Which poynt is so true and euident , as that I haue already taught in my bookes , that the preaching of the worde of God ( within which is necessarely included the impugning of all false doctrines , first their arrising ) is among the z Essetiall Notes of the Church ; As also that the a preaching of the Word doth constitute a Church ; the want of it , doth subuerte it . From whence it necessarely followeth , that these Doctours and Preachers are not to be silent , at the rising of any false Opinion ; but are obliged with all sedulity , and diligence what soeuer , openly to resist , and beate downe all innouations , & new arrising doctrines in Fayth , and Religion . And these Doctours , & Pastours thus defending the Church of Christ ( by impugning of false doctrines ) are those Watchmen and Sentinels , of whom Esay so lōg since prophesied , b Vpon thy Walles , ô Hierusalem , I haue appoynted watchmen all the day , and all the night ; for euer they shall not hould their peace . And indeed to speake sincerely , the Nature of the Church requireth , no lesse : for how can it continue the true Church , if her Pas●outs do suffer false , & erroneous doctrine to inuade her children , without any cōtroule or resistance ? And are not such negligent Pastou●s to be reputed , as Paralyticke , and dead Members of the Church ; since they performe not that office , and function , for which they were ordayned ? CARD . BELLARM. Your Iudgment is to be emdraced herein . But now , M. Doctour , I take your sword out of your owne hand , and do turne the poynt of it into your owne breast . For whereas their are many weighty doctrines ( as touching the Premacy of Peter , the number of the Sacraments , and their efficacy , Free-will , Merit of workes , Praying for the dead , Praying to Saincts , Worshipping of Images , Vnmaried liues of Priests , the Reall Presence , the Sacrifice of the Masse , and ( to omit diuers others ) the adoration of Christin the Sacrament , which are beleiued by the present Church of Rome ; and which ( as you Protestants do teach ) were introduced into the Church , as Nouelties , and Innouations , since the Faith of Christ was first planted in the Church of Rome , by the Apostles : Now here , M. Doctour , I prouoke you , and all the Protestants liuing , according to your owne former doctrine of Pastours , euer resisting new and false doctrines , to name any one Pastour , Doctour , or Father of the Church , who euer resisted any of the former Catholicke doctrines , as new doctrines ; or did once charge the Church of Rome with chang , and innouation in any one poynt , from their former receaued Fayth by the Apostles . Reade ouer all the ancient Fathers , and Doctours of the Primatiue Church , and later times : Peruse the first approoued Generall Councells : Go ouer all the ancient Catalogues of Condemned Heresies ; and euen study all Ecclesiasticall Historyes of those former times ; and finde in all these but only any one of the former Catholicke , and now Romane doctrines , or any other poynt cōtrouerted at this day betweene you and vs , to be condemned for a Nouelty , and as dissenting from the generall receaued Fayth of those tymes , and I promise you , I will cast off my Cardinalls Hat , and turne Protestant . Can any reasonable Man then thinke , that , whereas you teach , the Papists Religion came in by degrees , and at seuerall tymes , that all the Pastours , and Fathers of those seuerall tymes were a sleepe , when the sayd doctrines were first braoched ; or that they obseruing their entrance , yet not any of them would vouchsafe to make resistance , or at least some mention , of any such innouation in doctrine ? doth not this mainly crosse the fore-alleadged Prophesy of the Apostle ? Or can this stand with any possibility ; especially if we consider the nature of our former Catholicke doctrines , auerred by you to be introduced , as Nouelisms ? since they are , as aboue is intimated , many in number ; diuers of them of the greatest consequence , that may be ; as the vertue of the Sacraments , the Manner of our Iustification , to wit , whether by workes , or by Fayth only ; others of them most repugnant to mans sence , and common reason , as the Reall Presence : Some aduerse to Mans naturall Propension , as the doctrine of Virginity , Pouerty , and Obedience ; most of them consisting not only in an internall beleife , but euen in an externall action and operation ; And therfore the first Origē and entrance of thē are therby become most discernable : Such are our doctrines of Praying to Saints , Praying for the deade , Pilgrimages , Single life in the Cleargy , & to omitt diuers others , all Monachisme . And lastly some , supposing theire doctrine to be false , subiect to externall Idolatry ; as the worshiping of Christ with supreame honour in the Eucharist . Therfore if any of our graue and learned Aduersaries should affirme ( for there are some curious witts , who will seeme to erre , euē out of iudgment ) that these doctrines could stealingly creepe into Gods Church , without all resistance of it Pastours , Doctours , and Fathers , I bouldly auerte , that these men not only giue the lye openly to the holy Scripture , in seuerall places witnessing the contrary , but they with all cease to be Men , by loosing wholy the naturall light of all humane discourse and Reason . But , M. Doctour , to presse the force of this argument further . Haue you not read , that in the Primatiue Church there were the Heresies of the Valentinians , Tationists Maniches , Arians , and diuers others , all which did embroile the Church of Christ , euen before the first foure hundred yeares were expyred ? D. WHITTAKERS . Yea. I haue read all these ; and I do find them recorded in the writings and Catalogues of Heresies , composed by Irenaeus , Epiphanius , Augustine , and others ; who with their learned Penns openly impugned these , and diuets other Heretickes , which Hereticks for the tyme troubled the waters of the Church , more then after they could , at their pleasure calme them . CARD . BLLARM . Haue you not also read of the Heresies , of the Nestroians , Pelagians , Donatists , Minothelits ? ( All which had their beginnings within the compasse of the 160. yeares , aboue mentioned ) which was betweene the first foure hundred and forty yeares next after Christ , and the thousand yeares from vs ; within which compasse of yeares ( by the Protestants owne writings ) the Church of Rome did suffer this supposed , and imaginary change in Religion . D. WHITTAKERS . I haue also read of these latter Heresies , and do finde the first three amply recorded , and writen against , by S. c Augustine ; and the fourth ( to omit our owne d Centurists regestring those Heriticks ) by the sixt Councell of Constantinople ; for I haue euer obserued in my reading , that the arising Heresies in euery age , were the Markes , whereat the Canons of the Church , and Counceles , and the learned writers of the ancient Orthodoxall Fathers , did shoote . CDRD . BELLARM. To decend lower . Haue you not also seene the records of many Heresies rysing in euery seuerall age , after the first six hundred yeares . And ( to leape ouer diuers ages ) the-Herisies of Berengarius , Waldo , Wicleffe &c , if so you will acknowledge them for Heresies ? D. WHITTAKERS . All this I must , and do confesse ; for I finde the Heresies of euery seuerall age to be registred ( out of the Fathers writings of euery such age ) by our owne Centurists , in the fift Chapter of euery seuerall Century , by Osiander in his Centuries , and by Pantaleon the Protestant in his Chronology . And for the doctrines of Berengarius , Waldo , Wicleffe , &c. I acknowledge them not for Heresies ; Yet I must confesse , I finde them to this day extant in diuers Bookes : As of Berengarius , in the writings of Langfrancus , Guitmundus , and Algerus ; Of Waldo , I read in Illiricus , e as also in Osiander ; f Of Wicleffe in his owne writings ; as also in M. Fox his Monuments , and M. Stow his Annalls of England . CAD . BELLARM. Well then . Thus I compound these Simples ; I meane thus I infer , and collect out of your former granted Premisses . Seing it is manifest , that the Heresies rising within the first foure hundred yeares ; The Heresies within the next two hundred yeares ; the Heresies hatched in euery age during these last thousand yeares , are most largly recorded , partly in the writings of the ancient Fathers in particular , and set tracts against them , partly in the Canons of generall Councells condemning them ; partely by the obseruing diligēce of Ecclesiasticall Historiographers ( whose desined labour is , to transmit , & cōmend ouer to after ages the true state , and face of Christs Church in former ages ; since History is the life of Memory , and Embassadour of antiquity ) and partely , by the Protestants like endeauours , who haue writen seuerall long Volumes of this very subiect . Seing , I say , all this is manifest ; and that not only the inundation , and flux , but euen the Ebb , and reflux of euery Heresie , was precisely noted by the Pilots of Gods Church , can it enter into any brayne , but to weene , that so many Articles of the present Roman Religion , being in number far more , then all aboue rehersed , in weight , and consequently greatly exceeding them , for diuersity of Countryes , and Nations far further deuulged , and spreade , then either all , or any of the former Here●ies euer were , most of these other being restrained only to one Contry , or Nation , could euer so vnespiedly infect the whole Church of Christ with their contagion , and worke a more notorious chang therin , then euer yet was wrought by al the Heretick , since Christs time put together ; and yet not one Father , or Doctour of those times , either to take notice of any of those supposed Heretickes , or knowing them , not to impugne their first assaults by preaching , or writing ; neither any one Ecclesiasticall History but to mention in their Histories any one of the sayd Articles , as Innouations in Fayth . Can this be imagined ? or can it be in the power of man ; thus to create at his pleasure a new Religion , without controule , or discouery ? If this can be dreamed , then may we with all dreame , that Impossibilities can haue a true , & reall existence ; and that the Scripture it selfe ( for want of due performance of its predictions ) is most false : Into such a depth of absurdities , M. Doctour , these your very supposals , and imaginary speculations , do precipitate , and cast all those , who giue any credit vnto them . MICHEAS . My L. Cardinall , and you M. Doctour , I must ingenuously confesse to you both , that the former Argumentes are much preuayling : the one drawne frō the distribution of times ; ( whreby euery age since the Apostles , is by the Protestants owne acknowledgmēts , cleared from all change in Fayth . ) The other from the silence , both of the Fathes , and Doctours of Christs Church , in not ●●pugning the supposed introducing of the Catholicke Articles ; as also of all Ecclesiasticall Historiographers , in not so much , as intimating , or but glancing at any one ( Article as innouated ) of the Church of Rome . And to paterne these times of Grace with the tymes of the Old Law : If any frontlesse , and bould Man ( and some such perhaps may easily , and without labour be found , since we neede not to plough for weeds , they freely growing of thēselues ) should affirme , that the Moysaicall Law had suffered greate changes , and alterations , betweene the times of its being first promulgated by Moyses , and the comming of the Messias , I should hould it a most choaking , and full demonstration for the ouerthrowing the falsehoode of such an assertion ; if neither instances of any tymes ( among so many ages , passed from Moyses to Christ ) wherin such a forged Innouation should happen , could be giuen ; neither could it be showed , that any of the Prophets , or Iewish Rabbines did openly gaynsay , or contradict the said imaginarie new arising Opinions , ( who no doubt , would haue maintained the Law with sheading of their bloud , before any Nouelisme in Fayth should haue inuaded the Synagogue ; imitating herein the resolution of Sampson , who conquered his enemies by his owne death . ) Neither lastly , if not any historiographer of the Iewish tymes , did in their workes , and writings , giue the least touch therof . But pardon me ( both of you ) for this my interrupting , and I would intreat you , to proceede further in this your learned discourse . CARD . BELLARM. I will satisfie your request ; but before I descend to any other argument , I will annex to my former demonstration ( for I can tearme it no lesse ) drawne from the silence of Doctours in contradicting , and Historiographers , in relating any presumed innouations in the Church of Rome , these ensuing Considerations . ( 1 ) First , we finde , that the lesse iustifiable liues , & conuersatiō in manners , of some few Popes , were precisely g regestred , and recorded to all Posterity , with intention , perhaps , to disgrace all Popes ; as if all Popes were to be represented in some one , or other lesse vertuous Pope , as all men are in Adam . Now then this being most true , can we probably thinke , that the Historians of those ages ( being euer ready , & prepared to taxe the Personall vices of the Popes themselues who as you see were forced by this meanes to passe the Red sea of shame , disgrace , and obloquy ) all of them would be wholy silent in relating the greatest change in Religion , that euer happened , if any such chang had truly & really bin effected ? ( 2 ) Secondly , we all knowe , that the Greeke Church hath bin for many ages emulous of the Church of Rome ; and therfore if the present Church of Rome had anciently made any Diuision , or Scissure from the true Church of Christ , the Grecians no doubt ( who then stood euer vpon the hight of En●●y , the better presently to espy any arising aduantage against the church of Rome ) would haue bene most apt to recommend the memory of such a change in our church to all after ages , in their Histories . But no such records we finde in any of their writings . Yea the Grecians are so far from that , as that ( on the contrary side ) the present Church of Rome is able to specifie , and note ( out of most ancient , and approoued Authours ) the very times , when the Grecians first introduced those particuler Opinions , wherin at this day they dessint from our Roman , and catholicke church . I will insist ( for breuity ) in some few cheife examples . First , their deniall of Obedience to the Sea of Rome , was begun by Iohn of Constantinople , and was noted , and writen against , by h Gregory the Great , and Pelagius i . Their denial of the proceedings of the Holy Ghost , from the Father , and the Sonne , tooke it beginning ( and at it first rysing was k gainsaid , and contradicted ) about the yeare 764. Their deniall of prayer for the dead , was begun by Arius , and impugned by Epiphanius , ( l ) and m Augustine . Their bringing in of leauened bread , by the Grecians in the celeberation of the Eucharist , was first begun about the yeare 1053. as appeareth out of the , writings of Leo n the nynth , and the o Centurists . Now can it be imagined that those , being few in number , could so precisely be contradicted , writen against , and left regest●ed to all posterity ; and yet this supposed change of the church of Rome : consisteth in bringing in of far more Articles in number , and of as great consequence , should neuer be noted , nor impunged by any one Doctour , or Father , nor recorded , nor obserued by any one Historiographer ; the said Doctours , Fathers , & Historiographers liuing in the very same ages , wherin this supposed alteration is sayd to haue hapned ? By the same ground might Pyth●goras well maintayne , ( as in his books he attempted to do ) that the earth being in speciall motion of 24 : houres ; our selues , because we are carryed together with this reuolution , cannot obserue , that any such motion of the earth is . ( 3 ) Thirdy , we may call to mind , that wheras the Ceremonies in the celeberation of the Masse , were successiuely and at seuerall tymes added , and first brought in by seuerall Popes ; So we finde accordingly , that the Aduersaries p of the present Church of Rome , as willing to discouer our innouations , though in the smalest matters , ( for Malice is glade to take hould of the least aduantage ) and but in points of indifferency , haue most diligently , and painfully recorded them in their seuerall bookes , written of this very subiect , with all due circumstances , both of the Popes introducing them and the tymes , when they were introduced . Here now I vrge . If the Enemyes of the present Church of Rome , being thus diligent and sollicitous in noting the beginning of eich Ceremony of the Masse ( all such Ceremonies being meerely accidentall to the Masse , and without which the Masse may as truly and effectually be celebrated , as with them ) If they ( I say ) could haue discouered any innouation in the maine Doctrine it selfe of the Masse ( as in the Doctrine of the Reall Presence , the Sacrifice of Christs body there offered vp , our Adoration of the Sacrament , the Priests enioyned chastity for such his celebration ) would they haue bin silent therin ? or rather would they not haue loaded their books with the relation of all such innouations ; they consisting not in smale ceremonies , but in most sublime , and high dogmaticall points of Christian Religion ? If otherwise ; then belike our Aduersaries would haue vs to thinke , that herin they resemble the Sunne , which reuealeth the Terrestriall Globe , being but of a litte quantity ; but concealeth the Celestiall , which is of a far more spatious greatnes . But to proceed ; and to conclude the force of this argument , drawne from the impugning , and recording of innouations in doctrine : if this precise course ( by our Aduersaryes acknowledgments ) hath euer bin kept , during all precedent ages , without intermission , in all matters confessed , and out of controuersy betweene vs , and the Protestants ; shall we dreame , that it was so wholy neglected , and forgottē , touching the supposed innouation of our Catholicke Doctrines ; as that such our cheife doctrines , though , first really brought in , in those former tymes , were neither at there first beginning impugned by any Doctours , or Fathers of those ages ; nor recorded , or mentioned by any one Ecclesiasticall Historiographer ( among so many ) of the same , or later tymes ? But now to vndertake , according to your desire , ( Micheas ) an other argument . You Protestants , M. Doctour , do affirme , that this our present Roman Religion is Antichristian ( for so commonly most of you in your charitable language do stile it ) and that the Pope is the true Antichrist , deciphered by the Apostle , for his first introducing and defending of the sayd Religion ; and vpon this ground you teach , that Papistry first came in , when Antichrist first came in . D. WHITAKERS . We do so teach indeed . For seing our mayne assertiō is , that your Religion is Antichristian , we cannot ( euen by the nature of Relatiues ) seuer , and deuide ( so indissoluble companions they are ) the one from the other ; I meane Papistrie from Antichrist ; he being the Man , who first did disseminate it ; and now the heade , who cheifly , principally , and with all wicked molitions , and machinations whatsoeuer , maintayns it . CARD . BELLARM. You are , M. Doctour , it seemes , full gorged against the Pope , as presumed by you to be Antichrist . But let that for the tyme passe . Do all you Protestants , M. Doctour , agree together , touching the tyme of Antichrists first comming , and consequently , touching the supposed change in Fayth , wrought by Antichrist his comming . D. VVHITAKERS . No. For I hould with our reuerent Man q Beza , who teacheth , that Leo ( who was Pope anno Domi. 440. ) did clearely breath forth the arrogancy of the Antichristian Sea : And therfore my constant Tenet is , that r Leo was a greate Architect of the Antichristian kingdome : But some few other Protestants hould seuerall wayes herof . CARD . BELLARM. Some few , M. Doctour , not so ; but very many of them maintaine different , and contrary Opinions touching the tyme of Antichrist his first cōming . And first s Melācthon , & t Bucer free the Pope from being Antichrist ; and do teach that the Turke is ( as Bucer speaketh ) ipsissimus Antichristus ; with whom in iudgment herin conspireth M. u Fox . Iunius x ( that remarkable Protestant ) teacheth , that Hildebrand ( who was Pope anno . 1074. ) was the first Antichrist , with whom D. y Downham seemeth to agree in these words : Gregory the seauenth , alias Hildeb and , was the first of the Popes , who was openly acknowledged to be Antichrist . Bullinger affirmeth he came in anno . 763. he therfore tearming that yeare : the y fa ▪ all yeare . D. z Fulke and D. a Willi● place his comming in Anno , 607. And make Boniface the third to be the first Antichrist ; with whome in iudgment herein your selfe , M. Doctour , forgetting , as it should seeme ; what elsewhere you haue taught touching Leo , conspire in these wordes : Gregory b the Great was the last true , and holy Bishop of that Church &c. And therfore because our Aduersaries demand of vs the tyme , when Antichrist first came in , we designe , and set downe to them , the very time of his comming , But M. Napper c ascendeth higher , affirming Antichrist to haue first comme in Anno Domini . 313. He teathing that Siluester the Pope , was the first Antichrist . Yet the Reformed Churches of Transiluania d giue a greater antiquity of Antichrists first cōming , placing it in the yeare . 200. But Sebastianus Francus ( no obscure Protestant ) out-strippeth all his former Brethren ; for he ascribes Antichrists comming to the times immediatly following the Apostles . thus writing , for e certaine through the worke of Antichrist , the externall Church , together with the Faith , and Sacraments , vanished away presently after the Apostles departure . See how this high swelling riuer of Heresie ( for I do hold this sentence , that the Pope is Antichrist , to be no lesse then Hereticall ) is fed with the smale streames of eich mans particuler and different opinions , which opinions though mainly dissenting in themselues ; yet most of them proceede from one generall source of the Protestants malice , and hatred against the Pope , and Church of Rome ; and therefore their iudgments herein must be more imperfect , and deceaueable : for as the eye seeth not a●ight , except the species , and formes of the thing seene , do fall vpon the eye , ad angulos rectos ; ( as the Optists do speake . ) So here mans vnderstanding cannot apprehend any thing truly , as long as is wanteth it owne naturall rectitude , & straightnes , which is euer free from all obliquity of preiudice , and Passion . MICHEAS . The variety of doctrin touching the comming of Antichrist , is most wounderfull , and far greater by many degrees then the diuersity of opinions amonge vs Iewes , who was husband to Esther , or at what tyme Iudith did liue . And indeede I euer promised to my selfe before this time , to haue found a far greater concordance of iudgment in this point , amonge the Protestants , then now I do finde . D. WHITTAKERS I am * not to defend eich Mans different opinions herein ; and I grant , if any of these be true , all the rest are false : But it is sufficient to prooue , that antichrist is come ; and that by his comming this great change in Faith , and Religion was first then wrought in the Church of Rome ; and as , touching the difficulty of proouing the circumstances of his first comming , it importeth little ; seing here we are to remember ( to speake by allusion ) that it is easy to prooue , that we see ; but hard to prooue , how we see . CARD . BELLARM. I do not looke , M. Doctour , that you should make good all the former contraric opinions ; for it is impossible to iustify , but any one of them . Neuerthelesse it is a weake kynd of proofe , to say only in grosse , that Antichrist is already come , and with his comming , this so great a presumed chang in Faith was first brought in ; where you haue no more reason to allow of the particuler tyme of his comming , by your selfe designed , then your former Brethren haue , for the fortifying of eich ones seuerall iudgment therin . Only the disparity , which I finde betweene them , and you , is this : That euery one of them do set downe one only particuler tyme of Antichrist his comming , and content themselues therwith ; wheras you , M. Doctour , imitating herin the skilfull Pilot , who constantly changeth his sayles , with the vnconstant winds , for your best aduantage , & as it most fittingly sorts to your purpose in hand , sometimes will haue his comming to be in Pope Leo , to wit , in the yeare 440. at other tymes , in Boniface the third , which is in anno 607. So you making a great Parenthesis ( as I may say ) of a hundred and fifty yeares at least , betweene your two different sentences of Antichrist his comming . But to returne to the force of this my argument , drawne from the Protestants different , and contrary Opinions , touching the first reigne of Antichrist . Here then , I say , seeing ther are among the Protestants so many contrary , and irrecōcileable sentences of Antichrist his first entrance , ( at what tyme , this supposed chang of Fayth in the Church of Rome is sayd to haue bin effected . ) And seeing , that not any one of these different iudgments haue more warrant , and authority for its supporting , then any other of thē hath : Therfore by force of all reason we may conclude , that all there sentences herin are false , and that Antichrist is not yet come ; and thus out of falsehood , we may extract truth ; & so consequently we may deduce , that no chang of Fayth hath bin yet wrought in the Church of Rome , by the said Antichrist . Therfore I will cōclude this argument with the more retired , dispassionate , and warie iudgments of some other of your learned Protestants , to wit , of that eminent Protestant f Zanchius , of Franciscus g Lambertus ( no ordinary Man among you ) and of some others ; who Peremptorily affirme against all their former Brethren , that Antichrist is not yet come . MICHEAS For my part , I must needs confesse , that I do beleiue that Antichrist is not yet come . For , besides diuers other reasons , vrged by vs Iewes in proofe therof those words of Daniell concerniug Antichrist his continuance , ( to wit h tempus , tempora , & dimidium temporis ) were euer by all learned Iewish Rabbins interpreted literally , and plainly , to signify three yeares and a halfe , which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme , as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion ; seeing he hath cōtinued preaching the sayd Doctrine , & Religion ( euen by the Protestants confessions ( as now I see ) many hundred of yeares . But good my Lord Cardinall , if there be any other reasons behinde . to impugne this sayd change , I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them ; for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety . CARD . BELLARM. I am willing therto . And for the further prosecution therof , I am to put you in mind , M. Doctour , partly according to my former Method , set downe in the beginning ; that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome , were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ ( as is aboue on all sides confessed ) and consequently , the most ancient Church , since * truth is euer more ancient , then falsehoode , and Errours . It therfore followeth , that all Hereticks whatsoeuer , who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth , do make a reuolt , and seperation from that Church of the Apostles , according to those words of S. Iohn : i exierunt a nobis : they went out of vs ; and answerably to that other text : k certaine that went forth from vs : which very words do contayne a Brande , or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy . Since the Apostle , and the Euangelist do meane hereby , that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians , then by him is chosen . So as to go out of a precedent Church , or society of Christians , is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis l ( quis vnquam Haereses instituit , nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae C●●boli ae Vniuer sitatis , & antiqnitatis consensione discre●●it ? ) but euen by your owne Brethren ; for we finde Osiander ( among others ) thus to write : m Nota ; Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur . Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall , & most ancient company of Christians , as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer . Now here I demād of you , M. Doctour , to shew , from what company , or society of Christians , ( more ancient ) did we Catholicks in those former tymes ( when first , you say , this chāge of Faith was made ) depart ? or from what Church , afore in being , went we out ? The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin , Luther , the Waldenses , the Wicliffians , and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries ; of whom it is confessed , that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church ; and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines ( so Iudas the Apostle , who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour ) did go , and depart out of the present Roman Church , and therby became Hereticks . The like , M. Doctour , I do here expect , that you should prooue , by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories , of the present Catholicke , and Romane Church ; which if you cannot , then is the inference most strong ; that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from , or departing out of that Church , which was established by the Apostles at Rome ; and consequently , that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth , since it first being a Church . D. WHITAKERS . Your Church hath departed from that Fayth , which the Apostles first preached in Rome ; and I hope this departure , and going out ( without other proofs ) is sufficient enough . And here I answere with M. Newstub● ( one of our learned Brethren ) o That when you require , who were they , that did note your going out &c. This question ( I say ) is vnvecessary &c. we haue taken you with the manner ; that is to say , with the Doctrine , diuerse from the Aposties : and therfore neither Law , nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing . Thus my Brother M. Newstubs . And my Lord , as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight , then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight ; so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine , first preached at Rome by the Apostles , and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture , before all humane reasons , and arguments , directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation . CARD . BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this ? and how poore a Circulation do you make . The mayne question betweene vs , is , whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth , or no , since the Apostles dayes ? To prooue , that it hath not , Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more anciēt Church , and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth : Now you in answere hereto ( as not being able to instance the persons , by whom , or the tymes when , any such departing , or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion ) reply , that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles ; and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes : and this sophism ( you know ) is but Petitio Principij , or a beginning of the matter in question , and is nothing els but ( without answering to any of my premisses ) the denyall of my Conclusion ; which kynd of answenng , I am sure , impugneth all Logicke , and therfore all Reason ; since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined . But to proceed further . In euery introduction of a new Religion , or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne , the Professours therof receaue a new denomination , or name , for the most part , from the first authour of the new doctryne , and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe ; like vnto a running riuer , which commonly taketh the name of that riuer , into which it falleth . Thus the Arians , the Valentinians , Marcionists Manicheans from Arius , Valentinus , Marcian , and Manicheus &c. or from the doctrine it selfe , as the Hereticks Monothelites , Agnoitae , Theopaschitae &c. though this more seldome . This Note , or Marke , of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy , may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception , ingendred since the Apostles tymes , euen to this day : a poynt so exempt from all doubt , as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth : p Surely it is not to be denyed , but that the naming after the names of Men , was in the time of the Primatiue Church , peculiar , and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks ; with whom agreeth M. q Parks ; both of them borrowing it from the anciēt r Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome , who thus saith : s Prout Haeresiarchae nomen , it a Secta vocatur . Well then , this being thus acknowledged on all sides ; If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth , then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies , and Opinions , became Heretickes , and consequently they haue taken ( according to our former grounde ) some name , either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines , or from the doctrines themselues . But you cannot , M. Doctour , shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs , except the name , Catholicks , which was euen in the Primatiue Church , the surname of all Christians , according to that ; t Christianus mihi nomen est , Catholicus vero cagnomen : Illud me nuncupat ; istud me ostēdit , though the contrary we can shew of you , who haue the names giuen to you of Lutherans , Caluenits , Besits , &c. Therfore it clearely followeth , that the Professours of the present Roman Church haue neuer changed their Fayth , first planted by the Apostles . D. WHITAKERS . Now my L. Cardinall , you are foiled with your owne argument . For haue you not the name of Papists peculiarly appropriated to your selues , to distinguish you from the true professours of the ghospel ? In like sort , are not some of your religious Men called Bernardins , others Franciscans , Benedictins , Augustins &c. so taking their appellation from particuler Men ; and thus your owne argument rebutteth vpon your selfe with great disaduantage : Therfore my Lord be not so confident aforehand in the force of your alleaged reasō but remember , that : u Thra●y's prò'erysóù , ' ec pollóù cacòs : who is euer bould before the worke is attempted , is commōly indiscreete . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , You so seriously here trifle , as that I euen blush in your behalfe , to obserue how you wrōg yourfollowers , and Proselits with such weake transparency of reasons . For you are here to vnderstand , that the Surnames of Peculiar Hereticks ( as the Arians , Eutichians , Maniches , and of all others ) were imposed vpon the Professours of these Heresies , euen at the first beginning , and rising of the sayd Heresies , and were inuented out of necessity , to distinguish their Heresies from all other Doctrines : but now the word , Papist , M. Doctour , was coyned but lately by Luther himselfe against vs , & this not out of necessity , but of reproach : our Fayth , and Doctrine being acknowledged , aboue by your leaned Brethren , to haue bin in the world , many hundred yeares before Luthers dayes . Agayne , the Word , Papist , is not restrained to any one Pope , or any peculiar Doctrine , taught by the present Church of Rome , but it is indifferently extended to all Popes , and all doctrines taught by the sayd Popes : so fowly , M. Doctour , are you mistaken in alleadging the name Papist against vs : and so much do you , and other Protestants wrong vs , euen for that very name ; we vndergoing herein by your Brethrens calumnies the like misfortune , which Collatinus Tarquinius suffered , who was depriued of his honours , and subiect to disgrace , and reproach by the Romans , only for the hatefull name of Tarquinius . Touching those names of Franciscans , Bernardins , Benedictans , &c. It is so cleare , that these names are not imposed for change of Fayth , but only for institution of seueral degrees of a vertuous , and religious life , as that I will answere you in your former Brother , D. Feild x his words , who thus solueth this your obiection : We must obserue , that they , who professe the Fayth of Christ , haue bin sometymes in these later ages of the Church , called after the special names of such Men , as were the Authours , beginners , and deuisers of such courses of Monastical Profession , as they made choyse to follow ; as Benedictans & such like . Thus D. Feild . MICHEAS . I thinke , M. Doctour , ( vnder yonr fauour ) that these your instances of names , taken from the first institutours of seueral religious Orders in the Church of Christ , do not imply any change of Fayth made by them ; and therefore the force of my L. Cardinal his argument , borrowed from new imposed appellations , is not weakned , but rather fartified by this your reply . My Reason is this : in our Iewish Law we read , that ther were some called y Rechabits , and others , z Nazarites ; both professing a more strict course of life , then the vulgar , and common people did . In like sort Iosephus a and Philo b report much of the austerity of the Essenes , among vs Iewes ; who in regard of such their peculiar Profession were called : Essenes ; and to whom God vouchsafed many spiritual , fauours , and consolations . Happy men : since he is most fit to walke vpon the hight of celestial contemplation ; who liueth in the vale of a voluntary humility , retyrednes , and mortification ; In whom the fyre of the spirit doth euer extinguish the fire of the flesh and sensuality ; thus the greater heare putting forth the lesse heate . Now shal any man thinke , that these men instituted a Fayth , and Religion , different from that , of Moyses ? It is both absurd to entertayne such a thought , and withall it is a wrong , and dishonour to the Law of Moyses . And in my iudgment , both these instances of the Old Testament produced by me , and those other of the Franciscans &c. obiected by you , M. Doctour , in a true , and eauen libration of thē do prooue that , which my L. Cardinal first endeauoured to prooue from the imposition of new Names . For they manifest the seueral changes , and alterations , which were made both in the old Testament , and the new , touching a more austere profession of a vertuous life , which was the subiect of those changes ; as these other new imposed names of Arians , Nestorians , Maniches , and the rest aboue specified , do necessarily euict a change first made in Doctrine , by Arius , Nestorius , Manicheus &c. But my L. Cardinall , if you wil enlarge your selfe no further vpon this poynt , I humbly intreate you to proceed to some other argument . CARD . BELLARM. Learned Micheas . I wil proceed to that , which at this instant shal be my last , though for weight , and force , it might wel take the first place . And it shal be taken , M. Doctour , from the first plantatiō of Christianity in your owne Country . which though immediatly , it concerneth but one Nation , yet potentially , it prooueth , that ther was no change of Fayth at all , made in the Church of Christ , in any former tymes , by the Professours of the present Roman Religion . But here , M. Doctour , I am to demand your iudgment , touching the times in which , and the Person , by whom the Britons of Wales were first conuerted to the Christian Fayth ? D. WHITAKERS . All we Protestants agree , that the Britons of Wales whre conuerted in the Apostles tyme , by Ioseph of Aramathia ; and this we prooue , not only form the authority of Sainct Bede , who did write the history therof in the yeare , 724. but also from the authority of our Principal Historiographers , for thus M. Cambden ( our learned Countryman ) writeth : c Certum est Brit 〈…〉 in ipsa Ecclesiae infantia Christian●m Religionem imbibisse , It is Certaine , that the Britons receaued the Christian , Religion , euen in the infancy of the Church . Who thus further discourseth of this Poynt : d In hac floruit Monasterium Glastenburiēsis &c. Here florished the Monastery of Glastēbury , which taketh it anciēt beginning from Ioseph of Aramathia &c. for this is witnessed by the most ancient Monuments of this Monastery &c. nether is there any reason , Why we should doubt therof Thus far , M. Cambden , with whom conspire all other Chroniclers ; as Harrison e in his description of Britanny , and others . Yea of vs Ministers of the ghospel f D. Fulke , g D. Iewell , and M. h Henoch Clapham , do ioyntly teach the same ; neither did I euer read any one authentical writer to deny it . CARD . BELLARM. How long , M. Doctour , do your writers confesse , that the Britons did preserue their Fayth receaued in the Apostles tymes , free from all change , or mixture of innouatiōs . D. VVHITAKERS . We do confesse , that they preserued it pure , and not stayned with any Errours , til Augustine his comming into England , who was sent by Pope Gregory , to plant his religiō amōg vs English : for first thus I finde D. Iewell to auer : i The Britons being conuerted by Ioseph of Aramathia , held that Fayth at Augustins comming ; as also D. Fulke saying : k The Catholick Britans , with whom Christian Religion had continued in succession from the Apostles tymes , would not receaue Augustine . To these we may adioyne the like words of M. Fox : l The Britons after the receauing of the Fayth , neuer forsooke it , for any manner of false preaching , nor for tormēts : and finally , that acknowledgment of D. Humfrey : m Habuerunt Britanni templa sibi , non Romanis &c. The Britons had temples , and Churches peculiar to themselues , not common with the Romans ; they not subiecting thēselues to the yoake of the Romans . CARD . BLLARM . Well , M. Doctour , you deale with integrity , and playnes hitherto ; openly discouering , what your reading and iudgement are able to deli●er herein . And your Prayse in so doing is the greater ; since there are some men , so cautelous in their proceedings , and speaches , and of such an impenetrable closenes of disposition , as that we can neuer knowe their minde by their words ; the one , for the most part , standing neutrall to the other , or rather the Aspect of a Diametricall Opposition . But , M. Doctour , let me enquire further of you . You know , that there was an interuiew of meeting , betweene this Augustine , and the Bishops of Britanny , or Walles , for the conferring of their Religions together , at a place called in S. Bede n his time : Augustineizat ; which point is further recorded by your o Holinshead , M. Fox , p and diuers others . Now here I would intreate you sincerely to set downe , the greatest differences of Fayth , and Religon , which at that meeting were found to be betweene the Briton Bishops , and the foresayd Augustine . D. WHITAKERS . I will and my tongue shall truly subscribe to all that , which of this point I haue heretofore read . And first S. Bede will fully determine this point ; who relating , how Augustine answered the Briton Bishops , setteth his answere downe in th●se words : q Si in tribus his obtemperare mihi vultis , vt Pascha suo tempore celebretis ; vt Ministerium Baptizandi ( quo Deo renascimur ) iuxta morem Romanae & Apostolicae Ecclesiae compleatis ; vt Genti Anglorum vnà nobiscum praedicetis verbum Domini , cetera , quae agitis . ( quamuis moribus nostris contraria ) eaquanimiter cuncta toller abimus : that is , If you Briton celebrating●aster ●aster day in it due tyme ; in conferring of Baptisme , ( by the which we are reborne to God ) according to the Rites of the Roman , and Apostolicall Church , and in helping vs to preach to the English ; all other matters , which you do ( though contrary to our manners , ) we wil tollerate , and suffer . Thus far S. Bede . But to what end , my Lord Cardinall , do you make so many demaunds touching this matter of the Britons ? Since I cannot see your proiect herein ; they neither preiudicing vs Protestants , nor aduantaginge you Papists . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , you shal quickly discouer the drift of these my seuerall demaunds , which resemble a Torrent , stopped for a time , that it may in the end ouerflow with greater violence . Now to your former acknowledgmēts we may adde ( touching only the three former differences ) the like Confessions of r Holinshead , s M. Goodwin , and the Protestāt Authour of the History of great Briton whose words are these : t The Briton Bishops conformed themselues to the Doctrine , & Ceremonies of the Church of Rome , without difference in any thing specially remembred , saue only in the celebration of the feast of Easter &c. Now , M. Doctour , in this last place , I would haue you cal to minde , what is aboue related , touching the Fayth , planted by Augustine , of D. Humfrey , the Centurists , and Osiander . D. Humfrey his words herin ( though the iteration of them may perhaps seeme vnpleasing ) I wil once more repeate , for greater weight of our ensuing argument ; who speaking of Augustins Religion planted in England , thus writeth : u In Ecclesiam verè quid inuexerunt Gregorius & Augustinus ? onus Caeremoniarum &c. intulerunt Pallium Episcopale ad sola Missarum solemnia , Purgatorium , &c , Oblationem salutaris hostiae , & Preces pro demortuis &c. reliquias &c. Transubstantiationem &c. nouas templorum consecrationes &c. Ex quibus omnibus , quid aliud quaesitum est , quam vt Indulgentiae , Monacha●us , Paptus , reliquūque Pontificiae superstitionis Chaös extruatur ? Haec autem Augustinus Magnus Monachus ( a Gregorio Monacho edoctus ) importauit Anglis : Thus D. Humfrey . Are not these his owne words ? And are not the x Centurists and y Osiander ( aboue cited ) most cleare , that Augustine at his comming into England , preached the present Roman Religion , in all chiefe points to you English ? D. WHITAKERS . It cannot be denyed , but that all the foresayd Protestants ( as also all Histories discoursing of this poynt ) do cōfidently auerre the same . Which said Gregory , as he brought in some true , & wholsome poynts of Christian Fayth ; so did he mingle them , with diuers poisonous superstitions , worthily to be avoyded by all good Christians : z Phármaca pollà mén 〈…〉 esthlà memieména , pollà de lyerà . for it is most cleare , that Augustine in this his plantation of Religion in England , did greatly labour a ' ar ' ' rostia quadam dianoias , with an infirmity or sicknes of iudgment . CARD . BELLARM. Wel , M. Doctour , touching the venom , you spit out against Augustines Religion , I holde it , but as fome , & froth of a distempered stomack , and therfore I passe it ouer : but to returne to my argument . Here now I wil be seruiceable vnto you , and by the mixture of all these former Ingredients , I will present you with a wholsome Electuary , compounded of them all : for indeede I holde the demonstration issuing out of the premisses , so vnauoydable , as that it precludeth , and forestalleth the aduersary of all shew of Reply . First then it is graunted , that the Britons were cōuerted to the Fayth of Christ by Ioseph of Aramathia ; who as he had the honour to interre our Sauiour , & lay his sacred Body in a new monument , cut out of a rock ( as the b Euangelist speaketh ) so enioyed he the happines to bury al former infidelity in the Britons , and to cloath , or infolde their ( afore stony , and rocky ) harts , within the cleane Syndon of a pure Fayth in our Sauiour : But to proceed . Secondly , it is confessed , that the Britons retayned this their first Fayth , spotles , and without change , till Augustins comming into England : Thirdly , it is prooued , that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine , and the Briton Byshops , the greatest difference in matters of Fayth , and Religion , ( wherupon they stoode ) were but two poynts , cheifly consisting in Ceremony ; to wit , the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme , and the forme of Baptizing , according to the rites of Rome . Fourthly , and lastly , it is graunted , that Augustine here planted , and preached to the English all Articles , and points of the present Romane Religion , or Papistry , as you Protestants do vsually style it . Now , M. Doctour , what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses , but this ? To wit , that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry , was wholy agreeable ( the two points , or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day , and of baptising with the Rites of Rome , only excepted ) with the Fayth , and Religion , which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies : and consequently , that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry , did neuer suffer any change in her Faith , and Religion since the Apostles departed . This is the Argument , wherin ( I graunt ) I partly insult ; it is inauoidable ; it is a demonstration : And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries , beating downe , & bearing before it , whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted . MICHEAS . In deed , my Lord , it seemes to me very forcible , and you did well to reserue it to the last place ; that so ( like sweet-meats ) it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments . Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments ; for though Better be better , yet followeth it not , but that Good is good . D. WHITAKERS . My Lord , This your argument is tyed togeather with many links , and breake but one of them , all the rest are loosed . And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority , Negatiuely , and by Omission only ; which you know is little valued in the schooles . For the hinge ( as I may say ) or weight of it only consisteth in this . That at the meeting of Augustine , and the Briton Bishops , dissented from Augustine . But of other greater points we read no mention made among them ; and therfore for any thing we know , the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence , as agree with them . CARD . BELLARM. How improbable , how absurd , how impossible is this , you say ? And take heede , M. Doctour , that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience ; and beware of much practising the like hereafter ; since the Character of any bad course , impressed by a long habit , at length becoms indelible . But to the point : Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled , and then deliuer an impartiall , and euen censure . The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together ; Augustine imitating therin S. Paul , c vt conferat cum illis Euangelium , quod praedicat in Gentibus . The Britons ( euen by the acknowledgment of M. d Fox ) did beare themselues at the first against Augustine , with great pertinacy , & stubbernes ; and therfore the lesse probable it is , that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment , more then was agreeable to their owne Religion . The differences betweene them after much disquisition , and search , are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies , and seeming indifferency . The Recorder of this great Passage , was principally S. Bede ; who ( ex professo ) did write most elaborately , and punctually , the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times ; and therein was obliged ( by his designed method ) not to register the smallest occurrents , and wholy to omit the greatest . Now then can we dreame , that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence ; the Sacrifice of the Masse , Praying to Saints . Purgatory , Free-will , Iustification by works , Images , Monachisme , the Primacy of Peter , and some others ( all being Articles of greatest importance , and particulerly taught by S. Augustine ) were , either not mentioned , and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine , and the Briton Bishops ; or they being then painfully discussed , and ventilated , the Britons being so refractory , and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points , would quietly , and without resistance , embrace all these high doctrines , as Innouations , and repugnant to their Fayth , first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia ? Or if the Bri●on Bishops ve●lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome , would not such their reluctation , and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede , and other writers of those tymes , who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes , and coldnes in the least matters of this History ? It is great weakenes , but to suppose such impossibilities ; It is madnes , and lunacy to beleeue them . Therfore my absolute , and last resolution here is , that the Fayth of Augustine , was then one , and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons , first preached to them in the Apostles dayes , ( the Ceremonies of Baptising , and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted ) which lesser errours , S. Augustine ( obseruing the Britons stiffnes ) thought perhaps , would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme , then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary ; like to some diseases , which are best cured , by continuing the diseases . Now for the fuller close of this poynt , to wit , touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine , with the then Doctrine , and Fayth of the Briton Bishops , I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues , of whom S. Bede thus relateth : e Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae , quam praedicaret Augustinus : so vnanimous ( we see ) were the Britons & Augustine in their Fayth , and Religion : and therfore it was not strange , that at the last ( as D. Fulke affirmeth ) f Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops , to the conuersion of the Saxons . And thus far of this argument , the which shall serue as the Catastrophe , or end of this my Scene ; wherin I haue vndertaken ( though more , then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto ) to prooue by positiue arguments , and reasons , that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth , and religion , since the Apostles dayes ; my cheife allectiue ( Miche●s ) inducing me therto , being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect , or Question . MICHEAS . My L. Cardinall . I render you humble thankes , and I must say that these your former arguments produced , seeme to me very moouing ; and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments , they will ( I cōfesse ) impell my Iudgment to giue it free , and full consent , to the beleeuing of that point , for the proofe wherof , they are by your Lordship alleadged . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour . Seeing there is no truth so illustrious , and radiant , but that in an vndiscerning eye , it may seeme to be clowded for the time , with the interposition of some weake Obiections ; Therfore I would now wish you , to proceede to your proofes , and to alleadg such arguments against our former Conclusion , as your owne reading hath at any time best ministred vnto you . Do not rest only in generally saying , that the Church of Rome hath altered her Religion ; except withal you insist in the particular instances , when that Church imbraced such , & such a Doctrine , as an innouation , and repugnant to the Faith planted by the Apostles . And remember , that the Truth , or falshood of generalities in speech do receiue their best illustration from a curious , and precise dissecting of the Particulars . This office now is particularly incumbent vpon you ; for seeing you maintaine , that the Church of Rome hath changed its Faith since the Apostles times , you are obliged to insist in the particular Doctrines , supposed to be changed , in the Person , and Popes , by whom this change was made , in the time , in which these alterations are presumed to haue happened , and the like ; as aboue I intimated in the beginning of this discourse . Therfore , M. Doctour , begin , and I will reply to your Obiections , as far as my owne reading , and iudgment will afford . D. WHITAKERS My Lord I willingly take holde of your prescribed Method ; and will giue many instances of seuerall Doctrines , euen of the greatest moment , now in question betweene you , and vs , when they were first introduced into the Church , and by what Popes they were so brought in ; and I hope that a due , and mature ponderation of them will be able to shake , and disioynt ( or rather to lay leuell to the ground ) the whole Systima , and frame of your former large discourse . Well then , the first Instance of this vndoubted Change , which I will alleadge , shal be Pope g Siritius , who was the first , that annexed Perpetuall Chastity to the ministers of the word . And I hope , that it is to be accōpted no smale change , to barre our Clergy of their Christian liberty in so great a matter ; since we are taught by him , who in these later times first taught vs Protestantcy that , nothing h is more swee●e or louing vpon earth , then is the loue of a Woman if a Man can obtaine it . And i that he who resolueth to be without a Woman let him lay aside from him the name of a man , making himselfe a plaine Angell , or Spirit . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , before I come to apply particuler answeres to your particuler instances following ; I must tell you , that the force of all such your instāces is already ouerthrowne , by what is deliuered aboue . For if it be already demonstrated , that no chāge of faith hath bin made at any time in the church of Rome , partly by freeing euery age of the Church , since Christs time from any change in Religion , euen by the acknowledgment of the learned Protestants ; partly by manifesting , that neither the Church of Christ , neuer made any resistance against the first supposed change ( as both in duety it was bound to do , and as the holy Scripture prophesieth , that it should euer do , at the innouatiō of any new Doctrine ) neither doth any Historiographer record in his History any such chāge ; partly by discouering the vncertaine iudgments of your owne Brethren touching Antichrists first comming ; at what time this so much pressed Innouation of Faith is taught to haue happened ; and finally , partly by diuers other reasons aboue discussed , and disputed : I say , if all this hath bin aboue prooued ( as I hope it is ) then doth it follow , that all pretended Instances , and Examples ( vpon which you may hereafter seeme in an ignorant eye to insist ) are impertinent , friuolous , and wholy by you mistaken . Neuertheles , for the fuller content of this our Learned IeW , I will with peculiar answeres refell euery one of your peculiar Examples . And first , to your first . Where it seemes , that the Doctrine of vowed Chastity in Cleargy Men toucheth you neare , in regard of your Ministers coniugall liues , seeing you begin there with . And here by the way , I must make bold to say , that you Protestants ( God be thanked ) cannot iustly be charged with being reputed superstitious Votaries , and wilfull Eunuchs , ( as Catholick Priests are styled by some of your Brethren to be ) so carefull you are of your owne reputation herein : but the lesse meruayle , since the very Body of Protestancy is Sensuality ( pardon me , M. Doctour , for speaking that , which Experience , and your owne Theorems depose to be true ) as the soule of it is an assumed height of mind , and controule of all Authority . But now to your example , wherof you produce no authority of any ancient Father affirming so much , but only your owne naked assertion . This of Siricius is wrongfully alleadged for seuerall respects : first , in that we finde S. Hierome ( who liued before Siricius ) to write of this point in this sort : k If marryed men like not of this ( meaning of the single life of the Cleargy ) let them not be angry with me , but with the holy Scriptures , with all Bishops , Priests , and Deacons ; who know , they cannot offer vp Sacrifice , if they vse the act of Marryage . Thus ( we see ) S. Hierome reduceth this point of Priests not marrying , euen to the Scripture it selfe . Which Father in further proofe thereof , appealeth to the generall Practise of the whole Church therein saying : l quid faciunt Orientis Ecclesiae , quid Egypti , & Sedis Apostolicae ? quae aut Virgines Clericos accipiunt , aut cominentes , aut si vxores habuerint , mariti esse desinunt . With Hierome ( to omit other Fathers ) Epiphanius ( ancient to Hierome ) conspireth , who reprehending the abuse of some Deacons , and Sub-deacons , for accompanying their Wiues , whom they had espoused before their Orders taken , concludeth thus : m At hoc non est iuxta Canonem ; This is against the Canion ; So he implying , that there , was a former Canon against the marriage of Priests . To conclude Origen , who liued before these o●her Fathers , thus writeth hereof : n Mihi videtur , quòd illius est solius offerre Sacrificium indesinens , qui indesinenti , & perpetuae se deuouerit castitati : I am of iudgment , that , that man only , is to offer vp perpetuall Sacrifice , who hath deuoted himselfe to perpetuall Chastity . This point is so euident , that your owne o Kēpnitius doth reprehēd the foresayd Hierome , Epiphanius , Origen , as also Ambrose , for their impugning the supposed lawfulnes of Priests marriage . We may adde ( for close hereof ) the Coūcell of Carthage . wherat S. Augustine was present : the Coūcell in expresse words sayth thus : p Omnibus placet vt , Episcopi , Presbyteri , & Diaconi &c. ab vxoribus se abstineant : It is allowed by all , that Bishops , Priests , and Deacons do abstaine from hauing wiues . And then immediatly after the Coūcell giueth the reason therof in these words : Vt quod Apostoli docuerunt , & ipsa seruauit antiquitas , nos custodiamus : to the end that we may keepe , what the Apostles haue ordayned herein , and antiquity obserued . Now I referre to any Mans indifferent iudgment , with what colour , M. Doctour , you can auerre , that Siricius was the first , who imposed single life vpon Priests , and the Cleargy . MICHEAS . I do not know , in what age ech of these Fathers did liue , I being more conuersant in the Genealogies of our ancient Prophets , and Iews , then in the Centuries , or ages of the Fathers of Christs Church . Neuertheles Reason , and true discourse informes me , that graūting all , or most of these former alleadged Fathers to haue liued before Siricius , ( as you , my Lord , do auouch , and M. Doctour , doth not deny ) then in regard of their former produced testimonies against the Marriage of Priests , it cannot be conceaued , how Siricius was the first , who annexed perpetuall chastity to Priest-hood . But if it please you , M. Doctour , proceed to other instāces . D. WHITAKERS . The first Councell of Nice q forbiddeth Marriage of Priests in these words : Priests are not to haue dwelling with them any Woman , other then their Mother , Sister , their Fathers Sister , their Mothers Sister . Now these words shew an Innouation of this Doctrine touching Priests not marrying , different from the former liberty left to them by Christ . CARD . BELLARM. I will not much insist , how this instance ouerthroweth the former instance of Siricius ; Seing it is impossible , that both the Councell , and Siricius ( they being in different times ) should be the first impugners of Priests Marriage . But to come to your example . The Cannō of Nice here alleadged , doth not bring in any Innouation of Priests not marrying ; but onely in regard of some negligence afore vsed , by some of the Cleargy , in not precisely obseruing the Apostles Doctrine herein , doth for the greater caution , Decree , that the said Women ( & no others ) should liue in the howses with Priests . Now that the Doctrine of Priests single life was more ancient , then the Decree , appeareth from the words of Paphnutius , then present at the Councell ; who , though , perhaps , he was perswaded , that Priest-hood did not dissolue Marriage afore contracted , yet he r saith plainely : Those , who are made Priests before they are married , cannot after marry . And this the said Paphnutius calleth : Veteram Ecclesiae traditionem : so farre Paphnutius was from ascribing it to the Nicene Councell , as to the first authour therof . But proceede on forward , M. Doctour . D. WHITAKERS . It is manifest , that he s who first deliuered Purgatory , for a certaine Doctrine was Gregory the Great . And this my owne reading assureth me . MICHEAS M. Doctour . Here I must make bold to interpose my iudgment . And truely , I can hardly be induced to thinke prayer for the dead ( which necessarily resulteth out of the Doctrine of Purgatory ) to be an Innouation ; much lesse the Doctrine therof to be first inuented by the Father , whome you style Gregory the Great ; who , and at what time he liued , I knowe not . My reason is this : I am assured , both by my owne practise , and perusing of our Iewish bookes , that prayer for the dead was euer vsed in our Synagogues , and is practised by vs Iewes euen to this day . And here , supposing , that the Booke of the Machabees be but Apocriphall , yet it is acknowledged by all , that the Histories there recorded , are true Histories . Now there we read , that Iudas Machabeus ( the vndowbted seruant of God ) commanded prayers , and sacrifices to be made for the dead Souldiers , vpon which Act , it is there said : So t he made a reconciliation for the dead , that they might be deliuered from sinne This Doctrine with vs Iewes was so generall , as that ( to omit all other ancient Rabbins , teaching the same ) Rabby Simeon ( a learned Iew , and who liued before Christ ) thus writeth of those , who are temporally punished after this life : u After they are purged from the filth of their sinnes , then doth God cause them to ascend out of that place . But pardon me , for inserting my sentence herein . CARD . BELLARM. Worthy Rabby . You haue spoken truely ; and indeede ; as the ancient practise of the Iewes , doth free the Doctrine , and vse of praying for the dead , from the staine of Nouelty in the new Testament ; so these Authorities , and acknowledgmēts following , do wholy subuert the former Instance of Gregory the Great . And first , we find S. Augustine ( who liued long before Gregory ) thus to say : x Non est dubit andum &c. It is not to be doubted , but that the dead are much helped by the healthfull Sacrifice of the Holy Church , and by almes giuen for their sonles ; and that by these meanes God doth deale more mercifully with them , then their sinns haue deserued . And in another place the sayd Father : Neque y negaudum est defunctorum animas pietate suorum viuentium releuari , cum pro illis sacrificium mediatoris offertur ; It cannot be dented , but that the soules of the dead , are releeued , through the pyety of their liuing freinds , when the Sacrifice of the Mediatour is offered vp for them . D. WHITAKERS . Many learned Protestants do holde , that Augustine did rest doubtfull of the being of a Purgatory ; among whō D. z Fulke ( that learned man ) doth so write . CARD . BELLARM. They do ascribe a doubtfull hesitation to Augustine in this Article , only for the better defence of their contrary Doctrine , Therfore for the greater euidence herein , obserue the free acknowledgmēts of the learned Protestants themselues passed , not onely vpon Augustine , but vpon other ancient Fathers . Thus , M. Doctour , you shall be herein deadly wounded by the penns of your owne Brethren : and thus may our Sauiours wordes be verified in you : a mans Enemies shal be they of his owne household . And first D. Fulke himselfe ( howsoeuer you alleadge him to the contrary ) speaking of Aerius , thus s●ieth : Aerius b taught , that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable , as witnes Epiphanius , & Augustine . Also the said Doctour confesseth more liberally of this point , thus writyng : c Tertullian , Augustine , Cyprian , Herome , and a great many more do witnes , that Sacrifice for the dead is the tradition of the Apostles . Which point , M. Doctour , being graunted , and admitting there were no expresse Scripture for this Doctrine , but only warranted by tradition , yet may the conscience of euery good Christian , be secured herein , Finally Caluin thus writeth of the former point touching the antiquity of prayer for the dead : d ante trecentos annos vsu receptum fuit , vt praecationes fierent pro mortuis &c. sed fateor in errorem arrepti fuerunt : Within three hundred yeres after Christ , it was in vse to procure prayers to be made for the dead &c. But the performers thereof were led into an errour . Thus much touching Augustine , and the times afore him . Now frō the perusall of these Confessions , I much wonder , M. Doctour , how you blushed not , to obtrude the beginning of praier for the dead , vpon Gregory the Great , who liued diuers hundred ages after all the former Fathers were dead . D. WHITAKERS . Howsoeuer , my L. Card. you seeke to auoyd my former Instances , yet , what answere can you make touching Pope Victor . f who was the first , that exercized iurisdiction vpon foraine Churches ? which sentence of mine , is also approued by my former learned Brother D. g Fulke ; from which example I gather , that Victor ( out of his elation , & pride ) first chalenged that Primacy to him ouer all churches , which your Popes , at this day still vsurp , and retaine : This Pope Victor being one of those , who couet : h ' aiem ' aristcucin cai ' yperochòn ' émmenai ' allon ; to aduance himselfe as the best , and cheifest , aboue all other Bishops . CARD . BELLARM. You do much disaduantage your selfe in alleadging this example , considering the time , wherein Victor liued ; to wit , in the yeare 198. An age , during the which , your selfe hath hertofore confessed , that the church ●f Rome did suffer no alteration in her Religion . Now , M. Doctour , wheras you cast an aspersion of pride vpon this most ancient , and reuerend Pope , I wish you take heede that you do not incurre the censure passed vpon Diogenes , who is said to haue reprooued Plato his pride , with greater pride . D. WHITAKERS . It is certaine , that many churches , and Fathrs were offended with Victors proceeding therein ; and particulerly that ancient , and pious Father Irenaeus ? which is an infallible argument of Victors vsurpation . For if Victor had true power to excommunicate the churches of Asia ( as it is graunted he actually had ) why should Irenaeus ; and those churches be offended : or reprehend him , for putting onely in execution his lawfull Authority . CARD . BELLARM. You must call to minde here , M. Doctour , the reason , why Victor did excommunicate the Churches of Asia , which was , because the Bishops of Asia were vnwilling to conforme themselues to the Church of Rome , in keeping of Easter day , to wit , to keepe it onely vpon Sunday ; whereas they would needs continue the keeping of it vpon the 14. of the Moone , according to the custome of the Iewes : Now for this their reluctation herein against the Church of Christ , Victor did excommunicate them . But when this seemed ( as being but a Ceremony , and for a time tollerated , through the weaknes of the Iewes ) in the iudgment of diuers , too smal an occasion to excommunicate , and cut off so many famous Churches , therfore Victor was censured by diuers , to be ouer seuere in prosecuting with so great a punishment , so smal a seeming fault . From which , their thus censuring of Victor , we may rather gather his Primacy aboue other Churches , then otherwise : and the reason hereof is , because we do not finde any of the sayd Bishops to charge Victor with any Innouation , in vnduely assuming to himselfe this Authority ouer other Churches ( which doubtlesly they would haue done , if Victor had first taken this priuiledge to himselfe , they being so iustly prouoked thereto ) but they did onely rebuke , ( as is sayd ) his ouermuch rigid seuerity , in punishing ( as they thought ) so rigorously , so smal a disobedience in the Bishops of Asia . Yea which is more , that Irenaeus , who was most forward in taxinge Victor with his sharp proceeding , ascribeth to Victor a soueraignety ouer all Churches . For besides , that Irenae●s is reprehended by the i Centurists , for acknow ledging the Primacy of the Roman Sea , Eusebius thus writeth of Irenaeus touching this point : k Irenaeus admonisheth Victor by letters , that he would not ( for the obseruation of a Tradition so long vsed ) quite cut of so many Churches from the body of the Vniuersall Church . Thus Eusebius . Now I here demand , why should Irenaens dissuade Victor from excōmunicating those Churches , but that he was persuaded , that Victor had power to excommunicate them . And thus farre of this instance ; which may be of force ( perhaps ) to prooue , that Victor was ouer seuere , but not that he had not true power ouer other Churches ; for which point it is by you , M. Doctour , vrged . But I pray you passe to other instances ; onely here by the way , I will put you in minde , that careles , and obstinate Christians , ( and such it well may be , some of those Asian Christians were ) haue in some respect small reason to feare the excommunication of the Pope , since these men , through such their disobediency , do commonly excommunicate themselues . D. WHITAKERS . It is cleare , that Zozimus , Bonifacius , and Celestinus , l ( all Bishops of Rome , did chalenge superiority ouer other Bishops , by forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell ; Which proceeding manifesteth the then vsurped Authority of those Popes , to be contrary to the institution of Christ . Thus these your Popes thirsted after all domination , and Power , though at other times , rhey made shew ( by styling thēselues : Serui Seruorum , and by their other affected Humility ) to contemne all honours and eminency . m Cur vultis esse in mundo , qui extra mundum estis ? CARD . BELLARM. It is most strange to see how inconsiderately , you proceed . For here you say , that these Popes first introduced this innouatios of the Superiority of the Bishop of Rome , ouer other Churches ; and immediatly afore ( and with all one breath ) you ascribe the beginning thereof to Victor , who liued two hundred yeares before any of these three Popes . If these later Popes brought it in , then Victor did not ? If Victor did begin it , then those Popes could not ? See how irreconciliable these your two Assertions are . From the actions of all which Popes , you can truely gather , that they onely practised an Authority , which the Church of Rome euer had ; but not , that they assumed any soueraignty to them , ( which poynt is only in q 〈…〉 estion ) which afore that Church had not . D. WHITAKERS . M. D. Fulke , conspireth with me in alledging the foresaid examples ; and he was a man well conuersant in Ecclesiasticall Histories : his words are these : Zozimus , Bonifacius , & Celestinus did challeng n prerogatiue ouer the Bishop of Afrik , by forging a false Canō of the Nicene Coūcel . And this Doctours indgmen● I much pryze , in matters of controuersyes . CARD . BELLARM. Both , D. Fulke , his iudgment , ( how learned soeuer you repute him ) and your owne also , must of necessity yeald to the truth herein : seing the example of Victor ( afore infisted vpon by you ) doth vindicate , and free these three later Popes , from all innouation in this poynt . And as touching the supposed forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell , for the erection of the Primacy of Rome ; It is most false , for euen your owne wryters , to wit , o Caluin himselfe , and Peter p Martir , do mention the said Canon , as truly made : Only they say , that the Popes did misalleadge this decree , as made by the Councell of Nice , which was made by the Councell of Sardis . And so their Error ( admitting that they did erre ) consisteth only in mistaking , by whether Councell the said Canon was decreed . D. VVHITAKER . What say you of Boniface the third ? q It is certain that this Boniface the third , was then the first that intituled the Roman Church to be caput omnium Ecclesiarum : the Head of all Churches . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour you weary me , by idly diuerberating the ayre with these impertinent Examples , and force me to entertayne them with a fastidious neglect . For do not the former Examples of Victor , Zozimus , Bonifacius , ( the first of that name ) and Celestiuus , ( all more ancient , then this Boniface the third take away the weight of this your instance ? And therfore I referre you to my answeres touching thē aboue specified . Yet because this verball Instance , consisteth cheifly in the phrase of : Caput omnium Ecclesiarum ; you shall therfore ( for your fuller satr●saction ) know , that this very Title , of being Head of the Church , is acknowledged , and giuen to the Church of Rome , by many both Latine , and Greeke Farhers , who liued diuers hundred of yeares before this Boniface the third , who raigned about the yeare 507. And first Vincentius Lyrinensis ( who was almost three hundred yeares before this Boniface ) calls the Bishop of Rome ; q Caput Orbis ; the Head of the Christian World. S. Hierome r sayth , that Damasus ( then Bishop of Rome ) est Rector domus Dei quae est Ecclesia eins , Damasus is the Reciour or gouernour of the house of God which is his Church . But if Damasus was the gonernour of the Church , then was he the head of the Church . Finally for greater contraction of this poynt , in the Councell of Chalcedon ( consisting of many reuerend Doctours and Bishops , and celebrated an hundred & fifty yeares before this Bonif●ce his tyme ) we thus reade : s Papae Vrbis Romae , quae est Caput omnium Ecclesiarum precept a habemus . See the like phrase vsed , and giuen to the Pope , and the Church of Rome , by the Emperour Iustinian , t Prosper u Victor , x Vticensis , and ( to pretermit others ) by S. y Leo. So fowly M. Doctour , you were deceaued , in alleadging this Bonifacius , and the phrase of Caput Ecclesiarum . D. WHITAKERS . Who knoweth not . a Ioh of Constantinople first challenged to himfelfe , the name of Vniuersnll Bishop ? But Gregorie the Great ( then Bishop of Rome ) eigrauissime , & conflantissimè restitit quousque vixit ; most grauely , and constātly resifled him , as long as he liued ; affirming him to be the Precursor of Antichrist , who should arrogate this tytle of Vniuersall Bishop , to himselfe But now ( my Lord ) euery Pope since Gregories time styleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop ; and therfore euery such Pope ( in the iudgment of the sayd Gregory ) is the Precursor of Antichrist : and consequently , euery such Pope hath made no smal change in this mayne point , from the Fayth first planted by Christ : for what commerce , and association in Fayth can there be , betweene Christ , and Antichrist ? CARD . BELLARM. Yet M. Doctour , more of these froathy Instances ? Who hath not read or heard , that Gregory the Great liued in the yeare 590. and therefore some thousand yeares since or more ? whereas the former alleadged Victor , Zozimus , Benifacius the first , Celestinus , and Bonifacius the third liued many yeares afore him ; and some of them seuerall hundred of yeares , were his ancients ; How thē could they assume a Supreāe Authority ouer all Churches , ( as you afore haue vrged ) and haue the title of Head of the Church giuen them , if Iohn of Cōstantinople were , either the first , that tooke this title to himfelfe , or that Gregory the Great did dislike it , in that sense , wherein you insist ; Therfore what censorious temerity is this in you M. Doctour , and how hardly can you vindicate your name ( by this your comportment ) from all iust blemish , and disreputation ? But suppose this reprehension giuen by S. Gregory were true , this only argueth a change to haue bin in Iohn of Constantinople , but not in the Bishop of Rome , which is the only poynt here questioned . Againe , I cannot , but obserue , how in this place , for your aduantage , you can commend Gregory for his humility , and vertue , whom at other tymes you are not afrayd to tearme Antichrist , and whose first Conuersion of you English to Christianity , you haue elsewhere stiled : b Corrupt , and Impure : see how ready , you protestants are to turne the sayles of of your speach to euery winde . D. WHITAKERS . Will you deny , that Iohn of Constantinopee did take this title of Vniuersall Bishop to himselfe ; or that Gregory the Great did not reprehend him for the same ? There are ancient Histories recording no lesse . CARD BELLARM. No. I do not deny it . But I say , the deceipt lyeth in the equiuocation of the word : Vniuersall Bishop . This worde lyeth open to a double acceptance : either to signify , that hee who is the Vniuersall Bishop , is sole Bishop ; so as it excludeth all others , from being Bishops ; in which sense S. Gregory did tearme it sacrtlegious , prophane , and Antichristian : Or else to signify one , who hath the cheife care , and gouerment of the Vniuersall Church ; by which signification others are not excluded from being Bishops . That in the first sense Gregory did take the worde : Vniuersall Bishop , is most euident , euen out of Gregoryes owne works ; for thus he writeth hereof : c If one be Vniuersall Bishop , it remayneth , that you be no Bishops . And agayne : If d one be called the Vniuersall Patriarch , the name of Patriarch is taken away from the rest . In this sense did Gregory take the word , and in this sense did Iohn of Constantinople labour to haue the word applyed to himselfe , endeauouring to be thought the cheife Bishop of the world ( to vse your owne e D. Feilds words ) because his Citty was the cheife Citty of the world . Thus you see , M. Doctour , how weakly ( or rather , how so Phistically ) you argue from the ambiguous acceptance of the phrase of Vniuersall Bishop . But your fault is here the greater , since you being a scholler ) are not ignorant , that Sophistry is only by incidency , and for caution to be known , but not to be practised : so Phisitions know ( for greater warines ) the venemous nature of certayne hearbs , or druggs . D. WHITAKERS . Howsoeuer Gregory might take this word , in your former restrayned sense ; yet seeing he did forbeare to exercise that foueraignty ouer other Bishops , and Churches , which now the Bishops of Rome do practise ; it followeth therefore , that he wholy disliked this swolne domination , and Primacy , so much thirsted after by your Popes . CARD . BELLARM. It seemes , M. Doctour , you are a stranger in your owne supposed Israell , I meane , you are not acquainted with your owne learned Brethrens writings : for what poynr of Primacy , and Soueraignty ouer other Churches , and Bishops is there , which Gregory the Great did not exercise , and this by the acknowledgment of your owne Ceeturists ? For though he was a most religious Pope , and so great an Enemy to Pride , as that he might be truly sayd , to haue bin euen ambitious of Humility , yet in respect of his Papall Iurisdiction , it is thus written of him : f He chalenged to himselfe power to commād Arcbishops ; to ordayne or depose Bishops at his pleasure . g Hee tooke vpon him right to cyte Arcbishops that they should declare their cause before him , when they were by any accused , h Hee placed in other Bishops Prouinces , Legats to konw , and end the causes of those , who made their appeale ta Rome He vsurped power of calling Synods in the provinces of other Bishops . Thus do the Centurists write of Gregory , collecting the Premisses out of his owne writings . To be short , they further in generall thus write of him , saying ; i Gregorius dicit sedem Romanā speculationem suam toti orbi indicere ; Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world . Now by all this here deliuered , M. Doctour , you may see , whether or no , Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop , as the word is taken in a sober ( and in the Latter aboue mentioned ) construction ? And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate ; which is so often enforced , and vrged , though with extreame wilfull ( or at least ignorant ) mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours . MICHEAS . Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest ; and therfore , seeing the tyme of the new Testament , is much superiour to the tyme of the Law , I do not see , but now in theiyme of Grace , there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ ; and consequently the acknowledgmēt of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion , or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe . CARD . BELLARM. Michaeas , you speake according to the Truth , and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach , who wryte thus thereof : k The ( high Priest of the Iewes was typically , and in a figure , the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church ; with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth , saying : l That forme of gouerment , which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferio●r to Mo●ses is an impious , vngodly , and vnlawfull gouerment , contrary to the Word . &c. But ( M. D. ) proceede on further . D. VVHITAKERS . Our best Controuersists , which ( as I may terme them ) a● the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers , do teach , that touching m your Sacrament of Confession , Innocentius the Third was the first , that instituted auricular Confession for necessary . Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since : so late , and fresh , ( yow fee ) your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is . And admitting this yonr Article , touching Confession , were not so new , but for more ancient ; yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle ; since we are to call to minde , that Haereses non●am Nouitas , quam veritas reuincit . CARD . BELLARM. I graunt willingly , that many of your Controuersists ( among whom I also rāge yourfelfe ) are accounted mē of learning ; And therefore I rest the more amazed , to see yow here ( perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth ) obiect this example to vs for Nouelty . But I feare your , and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours , and misstakings , for warrantable Truths ; and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance . But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein , and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities : We finde S. Bernard ( who liued before Innocentius the third ) thus to wryte of this point : Sed o dicis , sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri &c. But thou saiest , it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God , because a Preist without him , cannot absolue me from my sinnes : To Which thy argument not I , but S. Iames answereth : Confesse your sinnes one to an other . But to ascend higher ; S. Leo. ( who liued anno 440. ) describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt , thus saith : p Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem &c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church , that they should impose penance vpon them , that confessed their sinnes ; that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction , might be admitted , by Way of reconciliation , to the communion of the Sacraments . In lyke sort S. Basil . ( S. Leo his ancient ) discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein , and teaching , that a Ghostly Father in tymeof Cōfession , is an other from himselfe thus writeth : Necessariò q peccata eis aperiri debēt &c. Our sinns are necessarily , ( see heere the Necessity of Confession ) to be opened to those to whō the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giuē ; for indeede we find , that all the Anciēts did follow this course in Penance . To be breife , Cypryan and Tertullian ( of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession ) are charged by your owne r Centurists to teach priuate Confession ; and this euen of thoughts , and lesser sinnes ; and that such Confession was then commanded ; and thought necessary . Thus far of this point , Where , by the way I must tell you , that since protestācy had it first source frō sence , and sensuality , the lesse wounder it is , that Confession of sinnes made to a preist ( being so vngratfull to mans nature ) should be so vnpleasing to all protestants , and so basely esteemed of , for we all know , that the water will ascend no higher , then is the leuell of its first spring . MICHNS I must acknowledg , that our Anciēt Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist , s Galatinus ( who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion ) sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings , our continual practise therof . Adde hereto , that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus ; t for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices , to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns , and offences ; how could the Priest know , what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer , except he knew the particular sinne , for which it is to be offered ? Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof , & seing there is no reasō , why now in the New Testament , it should be wholy abrogated , I cannot be induced to think , that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation , and change , different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles . D. WHITAKERS . Your doctrine u of Transubstantiatinn was first , inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran : for before that tyme , not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it : for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation ? CARD . BELLARM. Good God , how poore , and needy in proofe are you , M. Doctour ? For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence , in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is , that if you insist in the word : Transubstantiation wee grant , that it was first inuented , and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence , in the councell of Lateran . But then this is but a verball litigation of you : for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein ; yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before . And still you allow , M. Doctour , by resēblance this illation , as good , and necessary ? The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis , was first inuented in the Councell of Nice , to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity . Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice . Idly and inconsequently concluded . Therfore , M. Doctour . let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning . But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe : and to omit , that S. Augustine sayth : x vocatur caro , quod non capit caro : And in another place : y quid gratius offerri , aut suscipi possit , quàm caro Sacrificii nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri ? We are here to remember , that this Councell of Lateran was holden in the yeare , z 1215. In which were assembled the Patriarchs of Ierusalem , and Constantinople , 70 Metropolitan Bishops , 400. Bishops , and 800. Conuentuall Priours . Now can it enter into any braine to thinke , that all these learned Men , being gathered together from all the seuerall places of the world , and many of them neuer seeing diuers of the rest , till they were there met , should all ioyntly embrace ( as an innouation , and afore neuer heard of ) a doctrine , so contrary to sense , and fleshly vnderstanding ? It is incompatible with common reason to beleeue , that such a generall Errour could so suddenly inuade , and possesse the iudgments of so many learned Prelates . But to demonstrate the antiquity of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation : in which sacred Mistery the eye of Faith seeth things inuisible ( It is confessed , by M. Fox a that about the yeare of our Lord , 1060. the denying of Transubstantiation began to be accoumpted an Heresy and the professours therof Heretickes and in that number was first one Berengarius who liued about the yeare 1060. Now then if the denying of the doctrine of Transubstantiation was accoumpted an Heresy , more then a hundred yeares afore the Coūcell of Lateran was assembled ; how could the doctrine of Transubstātiation take it first beginning at that Councel ? Who seeth not the impossibility hereof ? Againe , how could that doctrine ( in the times set downe by M. Fox ) be denyed , and impugned , except it were then , & afore beleeued , and maintained ? But to proceede to higher times . Doth not D. Humfrey confesse , that Gregory the Great ( who liued fiue hūdred yeares , and more , before the Councell of Lateran ) first brought into England the Doctrine of Transubstantiation saying ; In b Ecclesiam vorò quid inuexerunt Gregorius , & Augustinus ? in●ulerunt &c. Transubstantiationem Againe , your owne Centurists thus speake of Eusebius Emissenus ( an ancient Father : ) Eusebius Emissenus c p●rùm commodè de Transubstantiatione dixit . And of Chrisostome your foresayd Brethren thus write : Chrysostomus Transubstantiationem videtur confirmare : Chrysostome doth seeme d to confirme Transubstantiation . The Antiquity of which Doctrine is so great , that Adamus Francisci ( a learned Protestant ) thus acknowledgeth : Transubstantiation e did enter early into the Church . Now , M. Doctour , how do all these liberall confessions of so many eminent Protestants stand with your assertion , to wit , that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was first inuented in the Later an Councell ? And consequently that the Church of Christ suffered ( at that time ) a most remarkeable change , and alteration in so sublime an Article . MICHEAS . The Doctrine of the Reall Presence taught by the Church of Rome ( in respect of the Sacrifice there performed ) is most conformable to the Prophesies of the ancient Iewes : for to omit the Sacrifice of Melchisadech , which many did teach to prefigure the Sacrifice , which was to be exhibited after the comming of the Messias , we finde most of our ancient Rabbins to be of this minde . Accordingly hereto we read , that Rabby Iudas f thus writeth : The bread shal be changed , when it shal be sacrificed , from the substance of bread , into the sacrifice of the body of the Messias , which shall descend from Heauen , and himselfe shal be the sacrifice . With Which Rabby ( to omit diuers others ) Rabby Symeon agreeth in these words : The Sacrifice , which after the Messias his comming , Priests shall make &c. they shall make it of bread & wine &c. And that sacrifice , which shal be so celebrated on the Altar , shal be turned into the Body of the Messias : So conspiringly , M. Doctour , we see , did our ancient Iewes before Christs birth , ( by way of Predictiō ) teach with the prsent Roman Church , touching the Reall Presence , and the sacrifice performed therin . And therfore it is the more strāge to me , that the Doctrine of the Reall Presence , and of the Sacrifice should be reputed by you , as an ●nnouatiō lately brought into the Church of Rome ; for I must needs thinke that Christ himselfe did first institute the same . And thus I beleeue , that though in our Law , Isaack was externally offred , vp though not Sacrificed ; Yet now in the New Testament the Messias is daily Sacrificed ; though not externally offered vp . D. WHITAKERS . My Lord Cardinall . To passe from the Doctrine it selfe , of the Reall Presence , or Transubstātiation ; Yet how can you excuse from Nouelisine those phrases , touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist , first inuented by Pope Nicolaus the second , to wit , that g the body of Christ is sensibly handled , broken , and chewed with the teeth ? So grossely do you Romanists teach herein , as to maintaine a Doctrine , which hath nothing to plead for it , but only some few hundreds of yeares . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour . You now carry your selfe like a cowardly Masti●ie ( pardon this my homely similitude ) which not being able to take any strong , and firme hold at the head of his enemy , is glad in the end to catch at the flanck , or other the hindermost parts : So you , seing you cannot truly charge the Doctrine it selfe , of the Reall presence with innouation ; are content to quarrell , and snatch at certaine phrases , and words vsed ( by some Doctours ) about the said Doctrine . But to your obiection : Which ( once granting the truth of the Reall Presence ) is meerely verball . Therefore I say , that these phrases are taken in a sober , and restiained construction : That is , they are immediatly to be referred to the formes of Bread , and Wine , vnder which the body , & bloud of Christ do lye . Now that these phrases were not first coyned by this Pope Nicolaus ( as you auerre ) it is euident out of the writings of S. Chrysostome , who liued many ages before this Pope Nicolaus . This Father in one place thus writeth : h Christ suffered fraction or breaking in the oblation , which he would not suffer vpon the Crosse . And in an other place more fully , saying : i ipsum vides , ipsum targis , ipsum comedis : And yet more expresly : Non k se tantum videir permittit desider antibus ; sed et tangi , et manancari , et denies carni suae infigi ; Christ doth not only permit himselfe to be scene of those , who desired to see him ; but also to be touched , and eaten by them , and theire teeth to be fastened in his flesh . Thus we see , that S. Chrysostom was not afraid to vse the foresaid phrases in a reserued sence , which you make so capitall , & heinous . We may adioyne hereto , that Iacobus Andreas ( a famous Protestant , but a Lutheran ) answereth this very obiection which you father vpon Pope Nicolaus ( as the first inuentor of the former phrazes ) and thus concludeth thereof , saying : l This obiection taken from Pope Nicolaus , nihil , continet , quod inscriptis Orthodoxorum Patrum ( Chysostomi in primis● ) non continetur . D. WHITAKERS . I will not be long in reciting Innouations of strange Doctrins , introduced into the Church of Rome , since the Apostles times . Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor m Temporum , which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus . CARD . BELLARM. The Vessell , M. Doctour , from whence you draw these Instances , seemes to runne very low , and nere the dreggs ; Seeing for want of examples , for change in dogmaticall points of faith , you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts . For what is this to the alteration of Faith , and Religion in the Church of Rome , in any dogmaticall Article , which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you ? Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes ? The n Apostles ( you know ) did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud , and of things strangled ; and may not the Church succeeding them , as lawfully command , that ( at certaine times of the yeare , and for some few dayes ) the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash , and vse a more moderate dyet ? But it seemes , you loue not to feede vpon superstitious , & Popish fish , since many of you accoumpt it so . Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor Temporū . Where you say , it was first ordained by Calixius ; you grant hereby , that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares , since it first institution : for Calixtus was the next successour ( but one ) to Pope Victor ; which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord , and Sauiour , one hundred and sixty . Thus you are more preiudized , then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation . I will annex hereto , that whereas , M. Doctour , you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus , with the first beginning of this Fast , we ( on the contrary side ) can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost ; his words are these following : o Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus , ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt . And thus much touching the Antiquity , and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum ; whereof you see , M. Doctour , your owne bare assertion excepted , no certaine beginning can be knowne , since the Apostles dayes . But ( Sir ) proceede further in other instances , if so you can . D. WHITAKERS . Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour . The time is already spent ; And I hope my former examples ( notwithstanding your subtill euading of them ) are able to sway with all such , who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord. CARD . BELLARM. I beleeue you well . You will not labour further therin ; the true reason being , because you cannot . For I haue perused your bookes , written against Duraeus ( wherein you cheifly instāce , touching the chāge of the faith of Rome ; ) and your other Bookes against Father Campian ( that blessed Martyr ) as also your writings against my selfe ; and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change , insisted by you , then these alleadged . Yea , when the said Father Campian ) as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome , ) did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants , to name the time and other circumstances ( accompanying this supposed change ) in those his vehement , and inforcing Interrogations : p Quādo hanc fide●tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit ? quardo esse desi●t , quod antefuit ? quo tempore , quo Pontifice , qua via , qua vi , quibus incrementis Vrbem , et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena ? quas voces , quas turbes , quae lamenta progenuit ? Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt , dum Roma ( Roma inquā ) noua Sacramenta , nonum Sacrificium , nouum Religionis dogma procuderet ? You , ( though thus a wakened , yet ) in your answere hereto , only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius ( aboue refuted ) touching the single life of Priests ; & in place of further satisfaction , you thus reply to the said Father Campian : q Tuverò si dubitas , an desierit ( meaning , whether Rome had changed it Religion ) potes etiam , si vis dubitare , ansul meridie splendeat . Can any man ( not blinded with preiudice ) thinke , that if you had any materiall proofes for it change ( being a point of the greatest consequence , that is betweene you , and vs ) but that you ( being thus extremely import●ned ) would haue particularly iusisted in them , and would haue enlarged such your reply , with all reading , wit , & learning possible ? And as for your former Instances , they are most impertinent , and in themselues most false ( as is aboue demonstrated ) they being w●res ( I presume ) wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine ; like the spiders web , which is spinned out of her owne Bowels . MICHEAS . M. Doctonr , you must giue me leaue to tell you , that your Instances ( aboue vrged ) do not much sway my iudgment ; first , because they are not in number , past some nine or ten in all ; of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome , and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence ( so as it may be iustly coniectured , that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine , purposely therby to make shew ( in this your so great a scarcity ) of greater number of Examples ) The rest concerne Priests nor marying , Purgatory , auricular Confession , and the fast of Quauor Temporum . Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points ( as I am enformed ) betweene the Church of Rome , and the Protestants . Therfore I must presume , that no instances can be , but suggested , or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome , touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church , of Praying to Saints , of Free-will , Merit of workes , Workes of supererogation , Indulgences , Monachisme , Lymbus patrū , Images , the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament , Communion only vnder one kind , Vninersallity of Grace , the Necessuy , and vertue of the Sacraments , Inherent iustice , the knowledge of Christ , a man , His being God of God , and diuers others . Secondly , in that touching your former Instances , some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue , and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes ( as I haue shewed ) as that I can hardly repute them , as Innouations . D. WHITAKERS . The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes , in some of the former doctrines , is of smale force ; seeing you well know ( Micheas ) that the Law was to be abrogated , at the comming of the Messias . MICHEAS . It is granted , that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world , was to be disanulled ; so far forth , as concerne either sacrifices , or other Ceremonies , which did prefigure the comming of the Messias ? yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes , haue no reference to his comming ; ( as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory , Confession of sinns &c. ) therfore there can be no reason alleadged , why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe , should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace . Wee may add hereto , that if euery thing which was taught , and commanded by the Law , should now be abrogated ; then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to you Christians ; And consequently the cōming of the Messias should be a sufficient warrant for your breach of the said Commandements ; then which to grant , nothing can be excogitated more absurd , or more derogating from the honour of Christ . But ( good M. Doctour ) if you haue any more , that can be produced for proofe of change of Faith , made by the Church of Rome , I would intreate you to perseuer in your discourse . D. WHITAKERS . Though I should grant some insufficiency , and defect in my former instances , and that we could not insist at all in any particulars of that nature ; neuerthelesse we are not endangered therby : r For we are not bound to answere , in what age superstition crept into the Church . And to grant more fully herein : s Of the tymes of this change , it is not easi to answere ; neither is it necessary , that the tymes of all such changes be set downe . Breifly , I auerre , t It is not needfull in vs , to search out in histories the beginning of this change . And with me in iudgment herein agree many learned Protestants ; As for exāple ( to omit others ) Bucanus thus writeth : u Non est nostrum designare , quo temporis momento caeperit Ecclesia deficere . As also M. Powell , saying : We x cannot tell , neither by who , or at what tyme , the Enemy did sow it &c. neither indeed do we know , who was the first authour of euery one of your blasphemous opinions . CARD . BELLARM. O Iesus . What strange and conscious tergiuersatiōs are these ? And how mortally do they woūd your cause , & Religiō , wholy discouering your dispaire , and diffidence therein ? For do not these Confessions ouerthrow your former instances ? If your supposed Examples be true , then did you know the times of such a chaunge : if you doe not knowe the times of the change ( as here you confesse , you do not ) why then would you alleadge the foresaid Examples ? How can you extricate your selfe , M. Doctour , out of this maze , or how can you decline this forked Delemma ? Furthermore , if it cannot be knowne , when any change of Fayth was made ( as here you , and your Brethren confesse , it cannot ) why should we beleiue there was made any chāge at all ? He is weake , who enthralleth his iudgment to the beleife of any such thing , if so he wanteth the necessary , and cōducing Circūstāces , for the fortifying of such his beleife . But belike you will finally say with Ioannes Rhegius ( a Protestant ) who not being able to exemplify any change in the Church of Rome , arriued to that height of impudency , as thus to write : Sed denique licet verum esset , Romanam Ecclesiam in sua Religione nihil mutasse , an propterea mox sequetur , eam esse veram Ecclesiam ? Non opinor . Thus this Protestant . D. WHITAKERS . Not so , my Lord Cardinall , for I grant a change ; and the chang of Fayth made in the Church of Rome , may well resemble y the change in colour , which heires do make , in being become gray ; nothing hauing it maturity vpon the sodaine . In like sort it may aptly resemble the changes in z Edifices , & houses occasioned by their ruines , and decaies . We see by experience , these changes are true , and reall ; and yet cannot any man set downe punctually the tyme , when either the heires are becom gray , or the buildings are made ruinous . The like may be sayd touching the change of Fayth in the Romā Church : certaine it is , that such a change is already made ; but when , by whom , and in what manner , it is most vncertaine . MICHEAS . What , M. Doctour , do your greatest proofs for the change of Religiō finally end in these similitudes ? If so , then I may say , I do carry about me , my best instructours herein , must these gray haires of this my hoary heade , and beard ( my selfe being 60. yeares of age , and more ) and the decayes of this my old body ( for the same reason there is here of a ruinous body , which is of a ruinous house ) teach me , what Religion among you Christians , I am to embrace ? Haue my wearied members taken so great a iourney of so many hundred miles to this place , only to take aduise of my beard , and my owne feeble limms ; which , sitting at the sire side at home , I coulde with farre more ease , and with as much certainty haue performed ? ô the misery of man , who lyeth open ( in matters of greatest waight , and importance ) to the deceit of such rotten foundations ; they being as weake for proofe of what they are vrged as the things , frō which these resemblāces are taken , are weake in their owne nature . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , I do assure you in all sincerity , I do much condole the state of ignorant Lay Protestāts , to see how their eyes are sealed vp by the learneder sort of you : who in your Pulpits , and writings are often accustomed to inueighe in great acerbity of stile : and tragicall exclamations , against the Church of Rome , for hauing altered ( as you beare your followers in hand ) her Primitiue Faith ; But you being pressed to prooue this imaginary change , are forced for the warranting thereof , to take your last and best proofs from some few gray hayres , and sl●fters in an old rotten wall . But because these similitudes , and resemblances are most vrged , not only by your selfe , but also by many other Protestants of Note , and haue much swayd with vulgar iudgments , not in respect of any force in them , but in regard of the eminency of their first Inuentors ( so the water heateth , not because it is water but by reasō of it borrowed heate elswhere : Therefore I will examine them narrowly , and will shew the great disparity betweene them , and the change , which is at any time made in Religion . 1 First then , the first smale decay in any building , and the ( first shew of whitenes in haires is imperceptible , and not to be discerned ; wheras euery change in faith ( though but in one point , or article ) is most markeable , and subiect to obseruation . 2 Secondly , the whitenes of the haires of the head , and the ruins of a house do not happen , but by degrees ; and therefore at the first cannot be obserued ; whereas euery Opinion in doctrine is at the first either true , or false ; and therefore is for such at the first to be apprehēded by the vnderstanding . ( 3 ) Thirdly , not any haue the charge , or care imposed vpon them , to obserue the changes in these petty matters ; but in the Church of Christ there are euer appointed Pastours , & Doctors , whose office is to marke the first beginning of any innouation in doctrine , and accordingly to labour to suppresse the same . ( 4 ) Fourthly , these similitudes , and deceitfull resemblances ( being truly vrged ) do recoyle backe with disaduantage to the Protestants . For although we cannot shew , when the first haire began to be white , or the first slifter in a house begunne to be a slifter ; yet any notable degrees of the said whitenes in the haires , or of the slifters in a house are easily discerned : and therefore the Protestants are obliged ( euen from the nature of these their owne similitudes ) to tell vs , at what times some sensible degrees , and increase of this supposed change did happen ; and the manifestatiō of these degrees is to be made , by naming the time , and person , when , & by whō such , and such a particular poynt , or article of our present Roman Religion , was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome . The which not any Protestant ( notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories ) hath bin able yet to perform . And thus farre , M. Doctour , of these your similitudes ; which ( you see ) in a true ballancing of them , do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause ; and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged . D. WHITAKERS . Indeede I grant , that there are no Histories , or Records at this day , out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church . But ( no doubt ) such Records there were , though now wholy extinguished , & made away , by the vigilancy , and carefulnes of former P●pes , who to preserue the honour of their Church ( as free , and exēpt from all change , and innouation ) did deliberately , & purposely cause all Coppies of such writings , and narrations , to be for euer suppressed , and buried in obliuion , eyther by fire , or otherwise . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , this is a meare groundles Phantasie . If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records ; then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies , which affirme so much , are yet extant . If you produce no authority witnessing so much , then why should we beleiue your bare , and naked affirmation herein ? But to examine more punctually this poore refuge . And first , wheras you teach , that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees , now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth , now another : supposing for the time this to be true , how can it be conceiued , that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith , already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants ( as you mātaine , though vntruly that in those times they were ) could be gathered , & suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity ? It is most absurd , but to furmise such an impossibility . Furthermore do we not see , that the liues of such Popes , which can be lesse warranted , were recorded in histories , yet extant to this very houre ( as else where is intimated : ) Neither the narrations of them either were , or could euer be suppressed ? How then can we be persuaded , that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes ? Since certaine it is , that the Popes ( if possible they could ) would haue caused all narrations , touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished ; considering , that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome : Such an improbability this your euasion , M. Doctour , inuolues in its selfe . D. WHITAKERS . My Lord , It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances , and other arguments ( aboue produced ) to prooue the former presumed change . But imagine for the time , that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history , examples of any knowne innouation : imagine also , that we cannot shew , at what particular time , and season , the parcels of these changes did happen : imagine lastly , that there were neuer any records , testimonies , or writings , in which these changes were registred ; yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture , wherwith your religion is mortally foyled ? We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures ; to which only wee appeale ; and whose a ●autarceia , and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants ; the sacred Scripture being to vs more then b decaplês ▪ apologia , a tenfould shield of our fayth : This ( I say ) we know , and consequently we further know , that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same , which was planted in Rome by the Apostles . Here is our fortresse , here is our strength , and this place to you Romanists is maccessible . Here we haue c Tò retòn , the Word ; & ▪ epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù , to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred : And with this Word we are able to inflict d Cairian p●etèn , deadly to wound your popish Religion . And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture , as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle : If an e Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you , then that which wee haue preached , let him be Anathema . For f to vs it is sufficient , by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them , and vs ; and as for Historiographers , Wee giue them liberty to write what they will ? seeing this g aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary . And therf●re my Lord Cardinall , I must say to you here with Archidamus : h ' èt è● dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis , either mātaine your Religion with the force of Scripture , or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , before I come to ballance this your last argument , you must pardon me , if I smile to my selle to obserue , how affectedly , and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse ; and especially in this your last close , besprinkling diuers passages thereof ( as it were ) with some Greeke word or other . Which in my iudgment ( beare with me if I misconster your meaning ) is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand , what jolly men , and great Clarkes you Protestants are . And according hereto we commonly find , the bookes writen either by English , French , or German Protestants , euen to swell with Greeke phrases , or sentences . But who seeth not , how forced this is ? it being a point of ostentation , and vanity , thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes . We all know , the tongues are but the porters of learning ( in which the Catholicks , though with more cession , & modesty , are most skilfull ) and that he , who is a learned man indeede , is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them , as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning : Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect ; the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar . Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words ( being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue , as many Protestants are ) is like to that man , who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle , he reioiceth ; he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned . I speake not this , but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases , and sentences ; but this chiefly , when the Questiō is touching translations out of that tongue , and that we are to recurre to the Greeke ( being the originall ) for the cleering of that point : Or when the Greeke word , or phrase carieth with it a greater grace , emphecy , and force , then the same in Latin , or English will beare . But this I euer auerre , that to be ready vpon euery little occasion to prostitute , or staule forth ones Greeke ( a distēperature peculiar to Protestants ) as if he tooke a pride , in that he is skilfull in coniugating of typtò : This man ( I say ) deserues to be verberated throughout all the moodes , and tences of the word , for such his folly : This course being among all graue , & learned men , iustly censured for an exploded vanity . But now , M. Doctour , to descend to your reason touched aboue , and drawne from the authority of the holy Scripture . Here I say , you haue taken your last Sanctuary ; not in that the Scripture maketh for you , and against vs ; but that by this meanes you may the better reiect all other authorities , though neuer so forcible , & reduce the triall of all cōtrouersies to your owne priuat Iudgments ? since you will acknowledge no other sēce of the scripture , thē what the Genius of Protestācy doth vouchsafe to impose vpon the Letter . & thus by your faire pretended Glosse of the Scripture in this your last extremity , you Protestants well resēble that Man , who being ready to fall , thinketh not how to preuent the fall , but how to fall in the fayrest , and easiest place . The like ( I say ) you do vnder the priuiledge of the reuealing spirit , interpreting the Scripture ; the vaine , & fluctuating vncertainty of which Spirit , to discouer ( though this place be not capable therof ) were indeed to cut in sunder the cheife Artery , which giueth life to the huge Body of Heresie ? since once take away this Priuate Spirit , Heresie is but like a dying lāpe , which hath no oyle to feede it : Only I will here pronoūce , that as some haue thus left written . That must be good , which Nero persecuteth ; so here I do iustify by the contrary , that it must be euill , and false , which the Priuate Spirit affecteth , and manteineth . But let vs proceed herein further , and dissect the veine of this your last , & most despayring tergiuersation . First then , wee are to call to minde , that it hath euer beene the very countenance , and eye of all innouation in religion , to seeke to support it selfe by misapplyed , and racked Texts of Scripture ; a practise so anciently vsed ( though in these later dayes it hath receaued more full groath ) as that it was obserued by i Augustine , k Hierome , l Tertullian , and finally by old Vincentius m Lyrinensis who thus expressely writeth , not only of his owne times , but euen ( in a presaging spirit ) of our times : An Haeretici diuinis Scripturae testimoniis vtantur ? Viuntur planè , & vehementer quidem ; Sed tantò magis cauendi su●● . Now this being so , you are forced , M. Doctour , for your last retire , and refuge , to compart in practise with all ancient , and moderne Hereticks Secondly , the Scripture cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture , and consequently it is not able to decide all controuersies ; which assertion of mine is warranted by your prime men M. Hooker , thus teaching : n Of things necessary the very cheifest is , to know what bookes wee are bound to esteeme holy ; which poynt is confessed impossible , for the scripture it selfe to teach . And according hereto , you Protestants do not agree , which Bookes be Canonicall Scripture , which Apocriphall . For doth not Luther o and diuers of the Lutherans recite ( as apocriphall ) the booke of Iob , Ecclesiastes , the Epistle of S. Iames , the Epistle of Iude , the secōd Epistle of Peter , the secōd , and third of Iohn , and finally the Apocalipes ? All which bookes are neuerthelesse acknowledged by Caluin , and the Caluenists for canonicall Scripture . Thirdly , euen of those bookes , which all Protestants ioyntly receiue as Canonicall Scripture , the Protestants doe cōdemne ( as most false , and corrupt ) not only the present originals , but also all Translations of the said bookes , whether they be made in Greeke , Latin , or English ; as apeareth from the reciprocall condemnations of one anothers Translation : for the more full discouery of which point , I referre you , M. Doctour , to the perusing of a booke some few yeares since written , by a Catholicke Priest , and Doctour of diuinity , entituled : The p Pseudoscripturists . Fourthly , the very text , and letter of such bookes , as you all acknowledg for Canonicall Scripture , are more cleere for our Catholicke Faith , and in that sence are expounded by the ancient Fathers ; then any the Countertexts are , which you produce to impunge our doctrine . For some tast I will exemplify the perspicuity of the letter in some few points . And first , for the Primacy of Peter we alleadge : q Thou art Peter , and vpon this rocke I will build my Church &c. expounded With v●by r Augustine , s Hierome , t Cyprian , & others . For the Reall Presence , we insist in our Sauiours words : u This is my Body , this is my Blood ; taken in our sense by x Theophilact , y Chrysostome , the z Cyrils , a Ambrose , and indeed by all the ancient Fathers , without exception . For Priests remitting of sinnes , we vrge that : whose b sinnes you shall renut , they are remitted vnto them , and whose sinnes you shall reteine , are reteyned ; which passage is interpreted in our Catholicke sence , by c Hierome , d Chrisostome , f Augustine , and others . For Necessity of Baptisme : Except ( a ) a Man be borne againe of water , and the spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdome of Heauen . Of which our Catholicke exposition see g Augustine , h Chrisostome , i Ambrose , k Hierome , l Cyprian &c. For Iustification by works : m Do you see , because of works a man is Iustisied , and not by Faith only ? expounded with vs ( to omit all others for breuity , by n Augustine . Lastly ( to auoid prolixitie ) for vnwritten Traditions , we vsually alleadge those words of the Apostle , Therefore o Brethren , hold the Traditions , which you haue receiued , either by steach , or by Epistle ; interpreted with vs Catholicks by p Dam●scene , q Basill , r Chrysostome &c. Thus farre for a ●ast herein ; in which Texts , and diuers others omitted , you are to note , M. Doctour , first , that the Texts themselues are so plaine , and literall , that the very Thesis , or Conclusion it selfe mantained by vs , is conteined in the Words of the said Texts ; and therefore you Protestants are forced ( by way of answere ) commonly to expound those texts figuratiuely . Secondly , you are to be aduertised here , that as we can produce many Fathers , expounding these , and other like places in our Catholicke sence ; so you are not able to alleadge any one approoued Father ( among so many ) interpreting , but any one of the said passages of scripture in your Protestant Construction . Thirdly , and lastly , you are to obserue , that such texts , as the Protestants vrge against these , & other Catholicke Articles defended by vs , are nothing so literall , plaine , and naturall for their purpose ; but for the most part are vrged by them , by way of inference , and deduction ; which kinde of proofs is often false , and sometimes , but probable . Neither can you , or they alleadge any one Orthodoxall Father of the Primitiue Church ( a circumstance much to be considered , and insisted vpon ) interpreting such your testimonies in your construction . And thus farre of this point ; where , for greater expedition , I do but skimme the matter ouer . D. WHITAKERS . I do not much prize the authorities of the ancient Fathers , in interpreting the Scripture . And furthermore , you are to conceiue , that l seing the scripture hath not vi●am vocem , which we may heare ; Therefore we are to vse certaine meanes , by the which we may finde out which is the sence , and construction of the scripture . For to seeke it without meanes , is meerely 2 ' enthysiasticòn , et Anabaptisticum . Now the meanes ( according to my iudgment , and M. Doctour Reinolds ) 3 are these following : The reading of the scriptures , the conference of places , the weighing of the circumstances of the Text , Skill in tongues , diligence , prayer , and the like . And who hath these , and accordingly practiseth them , is assured of finding the true , and vndoubted meaning of the most difficult passages of the scripture ; and thereby is able to determine any controuersies in Religion . CARD . BELLARM. I do grant , that these are good humane meanes , for the searching out of the intended sence of the scripture . But I will neuer yeild them to be infallible , as here you intimate thē to be ; since this is not only impugned by experience of Luther , and Caluin , who would ( no doubt ) equally vaunt of their enioying these meanes , ( and yet irreconcileably differ in the construction of the words of our Sauiour , touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist , ) but also it is most contrary to your owne assertion deliuered in one of your bookes euen against my selfe ; where you write of the vncertainty , and ( perhaps falshood ) of these Meanes , in this manner : 4 obserue what the meanes are , such of necessity must the interprteation be ; but the meanes of interpreting obscure places of scripture are vncertaine , doubtfull , and ambiguous ; therefore it cannot otherwise fall out , but that the interpretation must be vncertayne ; and if vncertaine , then may it be false . Thus you , M. Doctonr , and if I haue in any sort depraued your words , then here challenge me for the same . Now what say you to this ? Can it possible be , that your selfe should thus crosse your selfe ? Or may it be imagined , that your penne at vnawares did drop downe so fowle a blot of contradictiō ? O , God forbid . The ouersight were too greate . Therefore we will charitably reconcile all , and say ; that D. Whitakers Bellarmines aduersary in writing ) hath only contradicted the learned D. Whitakers , cheife ornament of Cambridge . But enough of this point ; from whence the weakenesse , of this your last refuge to only scripture , is sufficiently layd open . MICHEAS . I grant , I am not conuersant in the authorities of the New Testament , as they haue reference to the controuerted points of these dayes ; since my cheife labour hath beene employed in diligently reading the Law , and the Prophets : neuerthelesse I am acertayned , M. Doctour , that seuerall passages of the said Law , and Prophets , ( in a plaine , and ingenuous construction ) do greatly fortify some Opinions , defended by the Church of Rome . I will insist ( for greater compendiousnes ) in two opinions , taught ( as I am informed ) by the sayd Church : within which two , many other controuersies ( if not all ) are implicitl infolded . The first is touching the euer Visibility of the Church in the time of the Messi●s . Now what can be more irrefragably prooued , then this article out of those words of the Psalmist ? He s placed his Tabernacle in the Sunne . As also out of that passage of Daniell : t Akingdome which shall not be dissipated for euer ; and his kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people . Agayne , out of the Prophet Esay A u Mountaine prepared in the top of Mountaines , and exalted aboue Hills ; And finally , more out of Esay : Her x Sunne shall not be set , nor her Moone hid . In all which predictions , by the words : Tabernacle , a Kingdome , a Mountaine , her Sunne is vnderstood the Church in the time of the Messias , according to the expositions of all our learned Iewes , and Rabbins , interpreting , and commenting the sayd Prophesies . The second article , may be the Controuersie touching Free-will , which ( I heare ) is mainteined by the Church of Rome , but denyed by the Protestants ; within which question diuers others ( to wit , of Predestination , Reprobation , the keeping of the Commandements , Works &c. ) are potentially included . Now how euidently is Free-will prooued out of the writings of the Old Testament ? And first may occurre that of Ecclesiasticus : He y hath set Water , and fire before thee ; stretch forth thy hand to whether thou wilt . Before man is life , & death : good , and euill , what liketh him , shal be giuen him , what more conuincing . D. WHITAKERS . Micheas . z I make smale accoumpt of that place of Ecclesiasticus ; neither will I beleeue the freedome of Mans will ; although he should affirme it a hundred times ouer , that before man were life , and death . MICHEAS I did not expect , M. Doctour , that you should expunge out of the Canon of Scripture any part of the Old Testament , but since you discanon this booke ; I will alleadge other places which were euer acknowledged for the sacred word of God by vs Iewes , and to pretermit that text in Genefis a of Caine , hauing liberty ouer sinne ( as a place strangely detorted by some ) and diuers other texts in the old Testament , proouing the same ; What say you of the like passage in Deuteronomy ? b I call heauen , and earth in record this day against you , that I haue set before you life , and death &c. choose therefore life . Where you see the very point , of which you are so diffidēt , is ingeminated , and reinforced . Thus , M. Doctour , you see how much these sacred Testimonies do wound you herein , as also do diuers other passages by me here omitted ( euicting Mans Free-Will ) though all of them haue bene accordingly interpreted by all ancient Iews , and Rabbins , as more fully you may see in Galatinus . D. VVHITAKERS . Touching your testimonies , produced out of the old Testament , and interpreted in the Papists sence by your owne Iewish Rabbins , as witnesseth Galatinus take this for my answere : I do c not regard or neede your Galatinns ; neither do I rely , vpon the testimonies of the Hebrewes . And further knowe you both , that it is as cleare , that the scripture maketh for vs , who are the Professours of the Ghosple ; as it is cleare , that the Sunne shineth in his brightest Meridian : Since we Protestants are ( d ) the little flocke : we e haue the vnction from the Holy one , and can cry f Abba Pater ; from all which the Papists are wholy excluded : And this is sufficient to ouerthrow the proudest Romanist breathing . CARD . BELLARM. Sweete Iesus , that thinges sacred should be thus prophaned ; and that the words of the scripture should be thus detorted , from the intended sence of the scripture , when all proofes whatsoeuer , from the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church , from the ioynt , and most frequent testimonies of the Primitiue Fathers , from Ecclestasticall Histories , and from your owne more moderate , and learned Brethrens acknowledgments , are drawne out against you , ( like so many sorts of Artilery , to batter downe the walls of Heresie ) and you not daring , ( and indeed not able ) to indure the assaults of any of these , then are you at the last forced to flee to the bare letter of the scripture , interpreted ( contrary to all the former authorities ) by your owne most partiall priuate spirit . And the better to lay some pleasing , and faire colours vpon the rugged graine of this your assumed priuile dge , you are not afraid peculiarly to apply to your selues ( as though you were the sole partage of God ) these former words , of the Flock , the Vnction , and Abba Pater . Neither do you rest here , but many of your Coate ( as may be obserued , both out of their sermons , and writings ) much solace , and delight thēselues in these following phrases of the scripture ; euer hauing them in their mouths , and vsing them ( with the helpe of the casting vp the white of the eye ) as spels to enchant the simple : Spiritus [ 〈◊〉 ] vbi vult spirat ? h Christ crucified ; i sauing faith ? the k spirituall Maniudgeth allthings , , and is iudged of none ; l Animalis homo non percipit ea , quae sunt spiritus Dei ; the m sanctisication of the spirit ; the n reuealing sayth ; finally , ( to omit many such others ) that o which is borne of the spirit , is of the spirit . Thus , as if your selues were wholy spiritualized , and enioyed certaine Rapts , Visiōs or Enthusiasnes , you vendicate to your selues most ambitiously the former passages of Gods sacred Writ ; only to blanch hereby the deformity of your Cause , and to bleere the vndiscerning eyes of your ignorant , and credulous followers : Such men breath herein an insufferable elation , and height of mind ; I will not say , pride , imposture , and Hipocrisy . D. WHITAKERS . My Lord , these are but your iniust aspertions , cast vpon the Innocency of the Professours of the Ghosple ; whose words , not for forme-sake ( as you wrongfully suggest ) but euen out of pure conscience are euer concordant to the illuminations of the spirit , descending from the Lord. But to turne my speaches more particularly to you Micheas . It seemes by many ouerturnes by you already giuen , that you intende to turne Papist . And indeed I much wonder , why your iudgement should rather propend to the Romish faith , then to the cleerelight of the Ghosple . Since in treading your intended course ( besides all other arguments here omitted . ) It seems you little prise the authority of so many worthy Protestant doctors , both in my owne nation of England , and ( to omit other places throughout the most spatious Country of Germany ; Men of extraordinary eminency for learning ; and whose V●tuersities are celebrious throughout all Christendome ; and in theire place , you are content to enthrall your iudgment to the absurd , and sencelesse Positions of the obscure , and illiterated Italians , and Spanyards ; who are not by nature made so maniable , ( as I may say ) as to menage the high Misteries of Christian Religion ; and whose blinde credulity suffereth their minds , to enterta ine any superstition , or errour whatsoeuer . And you must here remember ( Micheas ) that it is much learning , which conduceth a scholler to the Port of a true fayth ; whereas a superficiall measure rather endangereth him , then otherwise ; whose state herein is like to ship-wracke or losse by Sea ; which is often caused through want of Sea , or water , but seldome through abundance thereof : thus the store of that , which occasioneth the hurt , or domage , being had , would preuent the hurt , or domage it selfe . The like I say ) is a schollers case herein . Therefore Micheas , be wary now at the first , with whether side you consociate your selfe , least otherwise your resolutiō be atteted hereafter with a fruitlesse Repentance : And though the knowledge of thinges to come be ouercast with the darkenes , or Vncertainty ; yet , God grant , I prooue not a true Sybill , deuining of your future misfortune . MICHEAS . M. Doctour . I take your admonition charitably ; yet I mustneeds say , you deale strangely herein ; for whereas Man only is capable of Religion , you neuerthelesse would haue me cease to be a man , in the choyce of my Religion . Since you implicitly will me to reiect , and abandon ( so farre forth , as concerns my election of fayth ) all prudence , iudgment , and Reason it selfe ; and to rest vpon the bare letter of the Scripture , interpreted ( contrary to all antiquity ) by my owne priuate ( and perhaps erroneous spirit . And is not this ( I pray you ) to extinguish all light of Reason by which we differ from other Creatures , and agree with immateriall Spirits Since not to vse reason at all , is the property of a beast ; to vse it well , of a celestiall Angell . Now touching the Parallell , which you make betweene the Protestant , and Catholicke Countries , I must confesse plainely , I do not conspire with you in iudgment therein , your English Protestant Doctours , I purposely passe ouer in silence , and do repute them learned . Touching the Germans . It is true , that they haue beene , and still are diuers graue schollers of Germany , some Protestants , and other Catholicks ; and infinitly farre more Catholicks , then Protestants , by how much longer time Germany hath bin Catholicke , then Protestant ; against whose honour , and due reputation , farre be it from me to speake . Neuerthelesse if we do with a steddy hand , ballance that Nation , and the custome of it , with Italy , and Spayne , ( to speake nothing of France , which being almost wholy Catholicke , some few places excepted , hath , and doth daily bring forth men of great worth for learning . ) We shall then easily discouer the disproportion , and inequality . And to giue a little touch of the nature of them all : who knoweth not , that in diuers parts of Germany , the Inhabitants are but certaine liuelesse , and great Colosses , or Statuaes of flesh , and bones ; who make their bodies , but conduits , or strayners for beare , and wine to passe through ; belching out their discourses of Religion in ful carouses ? a maine cloude , which darkneth the light of the vnderstanding . Againe , who can be persuaded , that Fleame , and Haire ( the predominant complexion of that country ) and a loathsome bespitled stoue , cā contest in matters of eruditiō , with the ingenuous melācholy of the Italians , and Spaniards , and their most famous schools , and Academies ? By the help of which actiue humour in them ( for I speake not of that grosse , and dull Melancholly , wherby a Man thinketh , and walketh away his dayes ) the pure , and vnfettred Soule , disorganized , ( as it were ) and vnbodyed for the tyme , doth by an inward reflex glasle it selfe in it owne essence ; and so transcending it accustomed limits , through an internall working of it owne Powers , doth penetrate the most difficult , and abstruse misteries in learning , and religion ; fanning away points , which in their owne properties are to be seuered , and casting , or fagoting together things of one Nature . But to returne backe to Germany , ( which I will euer acknowledg hath brought forth many most famous , and worthy Men for Learning , Vertue , and Piety , ) your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country , cannot be iustifyed . For though I grant , it is on most sides obsest ( as I may say ) with Protestancy ; yet it is certaine , that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant , but Catholicke in Religion : As halfe of Switzerland , a part of the Grisons , Voltolyne , the whole Country of Bauaria , the Territories of all the Bishops Electours , the kingdome of Bohemia , besides many Imperiall Citties , and states . Againe , as other parts thereof do ioyntly , and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion ; so ( though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants , yet ) do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance ; like seuerall wayes , and Tracts meeting in one common place , and then instantly deuided one from another . This appeareth ( as I am enformed ) most cleare , and euident from the authority of p Hospinian , a learned German Protestant ; who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes , written in great acerbity of style , by one Ger●ā Protestant against another German Protestant ; & according nereto it is , that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries , and Hereticks in Germany ; as the Caluinists , the Lutherans , the Anabaptists , the Antitrinitarians , and some others ; though they all be linked , and tyed together in the common , and maine knot of Protestancy . And thus farre , M. Doctour , of this point , where you see , I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion , before the Catholicke ; because that is professed throughout Germany , ( as you pretend ) this cheifly restrained to Italy , Spayne , and France . But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour , to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome , then hitherto you haue giuen ; which if you do not , then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments ( at least in my apprehension , ) and what in respect , that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted ; I must tell you aforehand , I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion , & disauow all Protestancy . CARD . BLLARM . M. Doctour , if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons , I would intreate you now to insist further in them . You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object . If you do not , I must presume , all your forces are already spent ; they indeed being but weake , & resēbling that of S. Iude : q Cloudes without water , carryed about with windes . MICHEAS I pray you M. Doctour , forbeare not to grant to this my desire ; since otherwise I must rest assured , that no more can be sayd ( on your part ) touching this subject . CARD . BELLARM. Yeild , M. Doctour , to this Learned Iewes importunity : you know , he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty , onely to be resolued in this one Point ; therefore both in charity , and for the preseruing of your owne honour , and reputation , you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him . D. WHITAKERS . Tush , you are both ouer vpbrayding with me ; and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irre●ragable dispositions , I first ( for a close ) say to you ( Micheas ) that where you intend to become a Papist ; your change is this , that you leaue that , which was ouce good , ( though now bad ) to embrace that , which is euer bad ; I meane , you leaue Iudaisme , to entertaine Papisme ; and thus you become a new Proselyte , or rather Neophyte , in the schoole of Superstition , & Idolatry . Now as for you ( Cardinall ) whose name is so celebrious , and so much aduanced in the eares , and mouthes a fall men ; know you , that touching the subiect of this our discourse , I doubt not , but that my arguments , reasons , and Instances aboue alleadged , do in the iudgment of such , as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple , sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth , and Religion in the Church of Rome , since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies . And if the truth hereof be hid from any , I may then say with the r Apostle : It is hid from them , that perish , and are lost . Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this , that the Church of Rome , was once the true Church , and in fayth pure , and incontaminate , ( as before I acknowledged ) but at this present it is : s The Whore of Babilon , a branch cut from the true Vine ; adenne of theeues ; the large way leading to destruction ; the kingdome of Hell ; the Body of Antichrist ; a heape , or masse of errours ; a great Mother of whoring ; the Church of the wicked ; out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart , and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy , & inflict due punishments for all it impieties : and with this , as vnwilling to haue further entercourse , or dispute with any , that subiect themselues to this prophane Church , I end , and bid you both farewell . CARD . BELLARM. M. Doctour , I much greiue , to see you thus transported with passion , and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse ; but I the more easily pardon you , since it is hard ( vpon the sodame ) to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations : so spleenfull a ●●slike you haue against the Church of Rome ; and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those , whose spitle being enuenomed , make them to thinke , that euery thing they take in their mouths , doth taste of venome . But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs , I recommend you to the tuition of him , who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart , into Cor t docile , and Cor u emolitum ; and my prayers shal be , that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe , as a branch of that Church , the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule . MICHEAS . I am beholden vnto you , M. Doctour , for your Paines , and labour taken in this disputation ; howbeit I must confesse , I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion , then as yet is deliuered ; where I see , that your faire promised mountaines ( in the beginning ) do but turne to snow , and after resolue into water ; and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone , you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute ; bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers , who are forced to yeild vp their hould , and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies , as are not competent to such , as yeild . Neuerthelesse I commend you , to the protection of the God of Israell , and will pray , that you may ( after this life ) enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham , Isa●ck , Iacob , and their Seede . D. VVHITAKERS . Well , well . Once more I bid you both farewell . MICHEAS . My Lord , the doctour ( you see ) is gone ; and indeed I much dislike his bitter eiaculation of reprochfull words against the Church of Rome , little sorting to the presumed grauity of a christian Doctour ; but the matter is not great , since obloquy is but basenes , and the skumme of malice ; and that tongue , which knowes not to honour , cannot dishonour . But now touching your learned dispute , it hath ( I humbly thanke the Lord of Hoasts , and your charitable endeauour ) wrought in me so much , as that I well know towards what shoare I may anker , and stay my heretofore floating , and vnsetled iudgment . I see it is already acknowledged , euen by her enemies , that the Church of Rome enioyed in her primitiue times , a true , perfect , and incorrupt faith , as the Apostle doth fully assure vs : I see , that your selfe ( my Lord ) partly by handling the Subiect in grosse ; partly by distribution of times , in which this supposed change is dremed ; to haue happened ; partly by displaying the diuersity of the Protestants Opinions , touching the first cōming of Antichrist , who is said to haue beene the first , who wrought this change ; and partly by other forcible arguments , haue demonstratiuely , and irrepliably euicted , that since the Apostles , there hath bene no change of faith , made at all in the Church of Rome . Finally , I see , that the examples of this imaginary change , instanced by the Doctour ( who , as I am aduertised , hath more laboured in the search of this subiect , then any other Protestant ) were so defectiue , a●d maimed , as that they receiue theire full answere , and encounter , both from your former discussed heads ; as also from your Lordship , proouing a greater confessed antiquity of the said Articles , then the instances do vrge ; and lostly , euen from the Doctours liberall acknowledgment ; who plainly cōfesseth , that he knoweth not the time , when this his change receiued it beginning . Since then all these points are made so euident , and vndeniable , I grant they haue swaighed , and ouer-ballanced my iudgment , indifferently heretofore to either side enclining ; and haue enduced me indubiously to beleeue , that the fayth of the Church of Rome at this day is , as at the first it was ; to wit , pure , spotlesse , and inchangeable But now seeing no man can be a perfect Christian , except he actually enioy the Sacrament of Baptisme , which is the first dore ( as you Christians teach ) that leadeth a man to the misteries of your Religion ; therefore ( most illustrious Cardinall ) I renouncing my former Iudaisme , and wholy rendring my selfe a true disciple , and seruant of Christ Iesus , ( as acknowledging , that the Redemption of Israell is in him come ) do here prostrate my selfe in desire , to receiue this Sacrament euen from you ; that as your tongue is the cheife instrument ( vnder the highest ) for my beleefe of the Catholicke fayth , so your hand may be the like instrument , for the conferring vpon me the benefit of that sacred Mistery , where by a man is first incorporated , and ( as it were ) matriculated in the bosome of the Catholicke Church . CARD . BELLARM. Worthy Micheas . I much ioy , that our discourse hath wrought so happy a resolution in you , as to embrace the Catholicke , and Roman fayth , and giue sole thankes to him therefore , who is higher then the highest Heauen , and yet as low as the Center of the earth , who thus hath vouchsafed ( by his grace ) to descend to the bottome of your harte ; and let the remembeance of your precedent staine in Iudaisme , be a spurre for your greater perfection in the Christian Religion : So shall you resemble that body , which receiueth it greater health , from it former sicknes . And be sure , that euery day you encrease more , and more in Christian vertues : nulla dies sine linea . And takeheed , that you grow not lukewarme in this your resolution , or come to a stand of your present feruour : But remember , that such motions of the soule of this nature , which are stationary , are therein become Retrograde , since here not to go forward , is to go backeward . And as touching the precedent subiect of our discourse , rest you assured , that the faith of Christ first preached in Rome was neuer yet ( in any one dogmaticall point ) altered since it first plantation . The Church of Rome was ( and doubtlesly is ) the true Church of Christ ; which Church is so farre from broaching change , and innouation , by her intertayning , but any one Errour , as that therefore it is most truly prophesied of it x that it is a Moūtaine prepared in the top of Mountaines , exalted about Hils . It being indeed seated of such a hight , as that neither the thundring fragors of the persecutours cruelty , nor the windes of Hereticks speaches , and endeauours , were euer able to reach so high , as by introducing nouelty in fayth to disioynt the setled frame thereof : so true is the saying of that holy father ( whose fire of zeale brought him to the flames of Martyrdome ) y adulterari non potest sponsa Christi incorrupta est , et pudica . Now touching your baptizing Micheas wee will take such present course therein , as shall giue you all full satisfaction . MICHEAS I humbly thanke your Lordship . But I am further here to aduertise your Lordship , that if so it might be thought lawfull , and conuenient , that he , who heretofore denyed Christ , might after be permitted to be a dispenser of the Mysteries , and treasure of Christ ; I could then greatly wish , that after I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme at your hands , I might be aduanced to the holy Order of Preisthood ; that so now ( in the last scene of my old age ) my endeauours of this nature ( hereafter to be attempted in the Catholicke Church ) might partly redeeme my former mispent labours in the Iewish Synagogue : My single course of life , and vnmarryed state best sorteth thereto , and my owne desire is most vehement , and forcing . And indeed I am persuaded , that the profitable talents of a good Christian ought ) in part to resemble the engendring riches of an vsurer , who breeds vpon siluer , and whose z Tocòs , or interest money is no sooner begotten , then it begetteth : So should it fare with a man of sufficiency , deuoted to Christ his seruice ; who being become of late his adopted sonne , should himselfe instantly labour to be a parent ( vnder Christ ) of other such like sonnes . O how ineffable a comfort it is , when a man may truly ( yet modestly ) say through his spirituall trauell , fruitfully employed towardes others ( as your Lordship may now of me ) . a In Christo ●esu per Euangelium vos genui ? And how truly honourable is that profession of life , which consisteth in the negotiation , and trafiking ( as I may say ) of saluation of soules ? b Et ero mercator in domo Domini Exercituum . CARD . BELLARM. I Commend much your great feruour herein : But yet , I hold it more secure to pause for a time , to see , whether this your resolution touching Priest hood ( being , but the Primitiae of your spirit ) be steddy , and permanent , or whether hereafter it may alter , and wauer . And if so ; then would it follow , that your present taking of that course , would be attended on with an ouer late repentance . And you must knowe , that the wings of a new conuerted soule to Christ , do commonly at the first performe their speediest flight : c Quis dabit mihi pennas , sicut Columbae , et volabo ? Which for the most part after ( through some default , or other ) do begin to lagg , and to make certaine plaines . For though these first Motions of the soule in the seruice of God , be neither Naturall , nor Violent ( since they descend only from him , to whome by prayer we ascend ) yet they pertake much of that Motiō , which is violent ; they being ordinarily more strong , & feruerous in the beginning , & more remisse towards the end : and indeed experience teacheth vs , that a Precipitiòus , and ouer hasty deuotion , is sometimes dāgerous . But if this your good desire do hereafter perseuere , and continew , I shall be ready ( within conuenient time ) to giue you my best assistance therein . MICHEAS My Lord , I make smale doubt , that this my resolution ( through the ayde of him , who first did inspire it into my soule ) will remayne stable , and vnchangeable . Therefore your Lordship may further hereby take notice , that my intention is to spend his short remnant of my yeares , in diligently studying the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks , & the Protestants , to attempt ( as afore I intimated ) to plant that relilgion in others , which you haue already planted in me . I further am resolued , to take a view ( if my aged & feeble body will suffer me ) of the most famous Catholicke , & Protestant Vniuersities in Christendome ; and particularly I haue ( I confesse ) a thirsting desire to see the two ( so much celebrated ) Vniuersities of England ( of the one of which , I here D. Whitakers is a member ) places , of which Fame her selfe hath sounded her trumpet , in the highest Note . Now ( my good Lord ) in regard of these my determinations , and of my late embracing of the present Roman Roligion , ( the noyse , and bruite whereof will , no doubt , spread it selfe at large . ) I do probably presage , that I shall meete with diuers Protestants , who hearing of my election of Religion , will perhaps earnestly solicite me , for my change to them ; and making many violent incursions , vpon my yet weake , and vnfortified iudgment , will endeauour to demollish , and lay leuell with the ground , whatsoeuer your Lordspip ( by your former learned discourse ) hath already built in my soule . Therefore , that I may sit close , and immooueable in this my choyce of faith now made , I would intreate your Lordship to instruct me , how I may best guide occasion in discourse with such Men ; that so they may not be able to winne ground vpon my weakenesse . For though I can ( in part ) discerne the sufficiency of other men ; yet reflecting vpon my owne imbecillity , I with all discouer the want of their like sufficiency in my selfe : I herein resembling the outward sence , which aswell iudgeth of the absence , as of the presence of it Obiect . Therefore ( good my Lord ) initiate me a litle , in this Mistery . CARD . BELLARM. Mieheas , I like well of this your Promethian , and forecasting wisedome . And I will to my best ability & powre , satisfie this your desire . And whereas you say , you determine to see the Vniuersities of England , I approoue well thereof ; for I haue often heard , that ( speaking of the Materials of an Vniuersity ) they are the goodliest in all Christēdome ; I meane for magnificence , and statelines of their Colledges ; for op●lency , and great reuenewes belonging to them ; and for their pleasing , and sweete scituations . If you go to Oxford , you shall ( in all likelyhood ) fall in acquaintance with one D. Reynolds ; a Man ( as I am enformed ) not of a harsh , and fiery ( as his Brother D. Whitakers is ) but of a temperate comportment ; one , of whom the whole Vniuersity doth highly preiudge ; and indeede not vndeseruedly , he being ( his Religion excepted ) endued with many good parts of literature ; and who hath heretofore bene my d Antagonist in some of his Books , written against some parcels of my Controuersies . But now to descend to your last request to me , seeing then you are not , as yet , conuersant in Points of faith , controuerted betweene the Catholicke , and Protestant ; My maine , and first aduise is , that in all points of faith ( of which any dispute may hereafter occurre betweene you , and any Protestant ) you finally do rest in the authority of Christs visible Church , and the cheife heade thereof ; assuring your selfe , that although Simon the fisher , was not able to determine matters of faith ; yet that Simon Peter , and his successours ( assisted with competency of meanes ) haue euer an impeachable soueraignty granted to them , and a delegated authority from Christ himselfe , for the absolute discussing , & deciding of all Articles in faith , and Religion : e Tues Petrus , et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam , et portae Inferi non praeualebunt aduersus eam . Expect to meete with men , who are witty , and of good talents , and who well know , how to spread their Netts to catch the vnprouided . And whose streame of discourse ( for diuers of them are of great elocution ) for the most part runneth , in their accustomed chanels of pleasing insinuations , persuading to their faith , and a violent ouercharge of gauleful words , against the present Roman faith . Touching their allegation of authorities ( either deuine or humane ) credit them no further , then your owne eyes will giue you leaue ; for diuers of them vse strange impostures therein , though they warrant such their proceedings with greate cōfidency of earnest asseuerations : f quod si etiam viuit Dominus , dixerint , et hoc falsò iurabunt . Make choice ( if so it lieth in your power ) rather to dispute with Protestant Doctours , and Ministers , who are vnmarried , then married ; since the secret iudgments of these later may well be ouercome by force of argument ; but to persuade the wills to follow their iudgments ( in regard of theire clog of wife , children , and worldly preferments ) is more then a Herculean labour . And indeed , I confesse , I do much commiserate the state of diuers of them , who ( being otherwise of great wits , and might haue beene much seruiceable in the Church of God ) by being inchanted with a little Redd , and White , and a well proportioned face , do in their yonger daies tye thēselues ( by marriage ) to the world , & to the attending afflictions thereof : ô that the soule of man ( not subiect to dimension ) should be thus enthralled to Creatures , for their hauing a pleasing dimension . But to proceede You shall finde many of them of great reading ; yet of reading sorting rather to contradict , and quarrell , then to instruct : but diuers of their coate are content ( through their owne want ) to retaile , by help of Indexes , and such other meanes , their owne more learned Brethrens writings , & labours . And many of these ( through their owne ignorance ) thinke they do well , and that they professe a true faith ; wheras the more learned of them ( through their reading , and study ) must ( in their owne soules ) of necessity be conscious , & guilty of the falsehood of their owne Cause ; though the presēt , and temporary respects of riches , and preferments are so potent , and forcible with them , as that they c●nnot ( or at least they will not ) be induced to follow the Dictamen , and resolution of their owne Iudgments . If the subiect of your discourse be about the abstruse Misteries of the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist , or of some other such sublime points ; you shall hardly draw them to relinquish naturall reason ( so deepely are they immersed therein , ) it being indeed their Pillar of Non plus vltra : Thus , where other Christians enioy two eyes ; the one of Faith , the other of Nature : These Polyphemi ( shutting that of Faith ) do looke vpon the Articles of Religion , only with this of Nature . Choose rather to dispute , touching matter of fact ( with in which may be included the proofe of the truth , or falshood of the Protestant Religion ) then touching any dogmaticall point of faith , and doctrine , as receiuing it proofe from the scripture . This I speake not , but that the scripture makes most clearly for the Catholicks , and against , the Protestants : But because your aduersary in dispute will euer cauill at your exposition of Scripture ; reducing it in the end ( against all antiquity of Fathers , and tradition of the Church ) to the interpretation of his owne priuate , and reuealing spirit ; and so your labour would prooue , commonly , to be lost thereby . Now in matter of fact , your Aduersary is forced to stand to the authorities , deduced frō Ecclesiasticall Histories , and other such humane proofes ; and therfore he must either shape a pro bable ( if not a sufficient ) answere to them , which he neuer can do ; they wholy making against him , euen by his owne learned brethrens Confessions ; or els he must rest silent . And this is the reason , why the Protestants are so loath to dispute of the Church ; since this Question comprehendeth in it selfe , diuers points of fact ; as of it continuall Visibility , Antiquity , Succession , Ordination , and Mission of Pastours &c. All which Questiōs receiue their proofes from particuler Instances , warranted by shewing the particular times , persons , and other circumstances , concerning matter of fact . An other reason of this your choyse of your subiect of dispute may be ; in that few Men ( and those only schollers ) can truly censure of the exposition of scripture ; whereas almost euery illiterate man ( enioying but a reasonable capacity ) is able sufficiently to iudge of the testimonies , produced to prooue , or disprooue matter of fact . And here I would wish you , that in your dispute you labour , to haue some Catholicks present ; for where all the Auditory are Protestants , certaine it is , that they will voice it against you , howsoeuer the disputatiō may otherwise go . But because these obseruatiōs are ouer generall ; I will giue you here some more particuler ; since most of them may be restrained to certain particular passages , which may occurre betweene you , and your disputant Aduersary . 1. First then , let the true state of the Question ( discussed of ) be set downe , and acknowledged on both sides ; in regard of the often willfully mistaken doctrine of the Catholicks . That done , reduce the question disputed of , to as few branches as you can ; since multiplicity of Points is more subiect to confusion , and forgetfulnes , and giueth greater liberty to extrauagant digressions . And will your Aduersary to auoid all such speaches , but what are pertinent to the point handled . And if he will needs wander in his discourses , then you may reduce the force of them ( by way of Enthimem , or syllogisme ) to the point disputed of ; that so both your Aduersary , and the Auditory may see , how roueingly these his speaches were vsed , and how lowsely they , and the question then handled do hang together . 2. If your Aduersary vndertake the part of the Answerer , suffer not him to oppose ; though he labour to do so , to free himselfe from answering , when he shall see himselfe plunged . In like sort , if he vndergo the part of the Opponent , tye him precisely euer to oppose ; which Scene perhaps ( he being brought to a Non plus ) would sleyly transferre vpon you . And thus be sure . that eich of you keepe your chosen station . 3. If your disputant will vaunt , that he will prooue all by scripture onely ( as most of them giue it out , they will ) then force him to draw all his premisses ( I meane , both his Propositions , if so they should be reduced to a forme of argument ) from the scripture alone ; of which Methode ( within two , or three arguments ) he is most certaine to faile . And if he take either of his Propositions from humane authority , or from Naturall Reason ; you may tell him , he leaueth his vndertaken Taske ; to wit , to prooue from Scripture alone , and consequently , you may deny the force of his argument , though otherwise logicall if it were reduced to forme . 4. In your proofs drawne from Scripture , labour to be much practised in the Protestants Translations of it ; of which infinite places make for the Catholicks Cause , euen as the Scripture is translated by the Protestants . This course farre gauleth them more , then if you insisted in the Catholicke trāslation . 5. If you dispute with any by writing , or enterchange of letters ( this being but a mute Aduocate of the minde ) write nothing but matter , and with as much compendiousnes as the subiect will beare , without any verball excursions , or digressions ; since this proceeding will force your Aduersary to reply ( if he will reply at all ) to the matter . For otherwise leauing the point , which is cheifly to be handled , he will shape a reply to other lesse necessary stuffe deliuered by you ; and then his Reply must passe abroad ( by the help of many partiall tongues ) for a full answere to your whole discourse . 6. In like sort , if you attempt to charge a Protestant Authour with lyes , or Corruptions in their writings ( with which many of their bookes are euen loaded ) rather insist in a few , ( and those manifest , and vnanswereable ) then in a greater number ; seeing if your Aduersary can make show , to salue but three , or foure of a greater number ( which the more easily he may do , by how much the number of the instanced falsifications is greater ) the supposed answereing of thē ( chosen , & picked out by him ) must seeme to disgrace all the rest vrged by you . 7. If you intend to bring , and obiect any wicked , and vnwarrantable sayings , especially out of Luther , either against the Blessed Trinity , or about his acknowledged lust , & sensuality , be carefull to note the Editions of the Booke , wherein such his sayings are to be found . For in the later Editions of his workes , many such sentences are for very shame left out , and vnprinted . And hereupon there are diuers Protestants , who vtterly deny , that euer any such words were written by him . 8. Be skilfull in discouering ( though not in practising ) Sophistry , that so you may the better loose , and vntie e●●e Protestants knots of deceipte ; diuers of them being most expert in all kinds of Paralogisme . And particulerly takeheede of that grosse , and vulger sleight ( vnworthy a schollar ) drawne from the particuler to the Vniuersall , much practised by our Aduersaries . For according hereto , if they can finde any Father , or any moderne Catholicke Authour , to mantaine ( though therein contradicted by other Fathers , and Catholicks ) but one , or two Points of Protestancy ; they blush not to auerre , that the said Father , or Catholicke writer , are entire Protestants in all points . 9. If your Aduersary should produce some supposed disagreements in doctrine among Catholicks ; you may reply , that their differences rest only in some Circumstances of a Catholicke , Conclusion , and not in the Conclusion it selfe . And if he produce any presumed Catholicke denying the Conclusion it selfe of the doctrine ; then are you to tell him that such a man ceaseth by this his deniall ( vnlesse ignorance , or inconsideration excuse ) to be a member of the Catholicke Church ; & therefore , this his deniall doth not preiudice the Catholicke Faith ; this being contrary to the Protestants proceeding ; who wittingly mantaining contrary conclusions of Faith , do remaine neuerthelesse ( by the iudgments of many of them ) good brethren , and true Professours of the Ghosple . 10. If your Aduersary contest , that all the writinges , and memory of Protestants in former ages were extinguished by the Popes of the said , and after succeeding ages ; you may show , how absurd this assertion is . And the reason hereof is , in that the Popes of those times could not presage , that Protestancy should ( on these our times ) sway more , then any other Heresies condemned in their very times ; which other Heresies remaine yet registred euen to this day , by the acknowledgment of of the Protestants ; And therefore by the same reason , Protestancy ( supposing it to be professed in those former times , ) should also haue remained recorded , either in the writings of the Protestants themselues , ( if euer any such were or else by the censure , and condemnation of them , by the Popes of those daies . 11. Whereas you may alleadge diuers acknowledged Heresies , both in the iudgment of Protestant , and Catholicke ; out of the bookes concerning diuers persons , who beleeued some few points of Protestancy , recorded in the said bookes ; ( here I speake of VValdo , VVicliff , &c. ) Now if here your Aduersary disputant doth auouch ( as many Protestants do ) that these Heresies were falsly obtruded vpon the then said Protestants by their Enemies ; you may here reply , that to affirme this , is against the force of all reason . For seeing the said bookes do indifferently make mention both of the Protestant Opinions , and of the other Heresies defended by the same men ; either the said Bookes are to be beleeued in both , or to be reiected in both : If the first , then it is certaine , that those men beleeued those acknowledged Heresies , and then they can not be instanced for perfect Protestants : If the later ; then the said Bookes are not of any sufficient authority to prooue , that there were any Protestants in those ages . 12. There is great disparity betweene Protestants confessing some points , which do aduantage the Catholicke faith ( as for examples , that the Primitiue Fathers were Papists in all cheife Articles of Papistry , as the Aduersary vse to tearme it ) and other Protestants , impugning the said Confessions . Seeing the first men speake against themselues , and their Cause ; which ( they being learned ) would neuer do , but as conuinced with the euidency of the truth therein ; whereas these other do deny the Confessions of their owne Brethren , in behalfe of their owne Religion ; and so such their denialls are to be reputed more partiall . In like sort , there is great difference to be made , betweene Protestants speaking against themselues , and yet beleeuing the Protestant doctrine , and conclusion , touching some Circumstances , whereof their said Confessions are ; and betweene some others , who afore were Catholickes , and after do defend some one point , or other of Protestancy . Since these later men do not speake against themselues , but in defence of such their Protestant doctrine , then newly entertained by them , and consequently , in defence of their owne opinions : and therefore such their authorities are not to ballance equally , with the Confessions of the former Protestants . 13. If your Aduersary doth produce any authorities ; either from the Popes Decrees , or from Generall Councels ; ( by the which the Antiquity of some Catholicke Article may be impugned ) . Be carefull , 1. That particular Councels , or Councels Scismaticall ( not warranted by the Popes authority ) be not obtruded vpon you , for true Generall Councells . 2. That the point vrged out of the Councell doth concerne Doctrine of faith , and not matter of fact ; touching which later point , it is granted a Councell may alter it Decrees , vpon better , and later informations . 3. That the Canon , or Decree poduced out of the Councell , do immediately concerne the doctrine it selfe of some Article of faith , ( then supposed to be brought in ) and not the name only to be imposed vpon the said doctrine afore beleeued ; as it happened in the Councell of Lateran , touching the word Transubstantiation . 4. That the Decree of the Pope , or Councell , deliuered only touching the better execution of some Catholicke point , afore partly neglected ( as for example , touching Confession , the vnmarried life of the Cleargy , or keeping set times of fasting , and the like ) be not fraudulently extended ( by your Aduersary ) to the first institution of the said doctrine ; he so suggesting a more reformed execution , or practise of the Catholicke doctrine , for the first institution of it . 14. If your Aduersary produce the ancient Fathers in defence of Protestancy , first aske him , if he will inappealeably stand to their iudgments ? If he will ; then vrge the Protestants ( whose bookes are most plentifull in such like accusations ) charging them , as Patrons of Papistry . If he will not stand to their authority ; then demand ; to what end he doth alleadg them ? And further let him know , that it is the ioynt consent of Fathers ( without contradiction of other Orthodoxall Fathers ) which the Catholicks do admit . Where some Protestants obiect , that diuers points of the Cathoclike Religion were condemned in some Hereticks , by the Orthodoxall Fathers of the Primitiue Church ; you may truely reply hereto , that the Article , or conclusion it selfe , of any Catholick point , was not condemned by them ; but only some absurd , and wicked Circumstance ( annexed by the said Hereticks to the Article ) was condemned by the Fathers . Thus the Catholicks are charged by D. Fulke . and others , to borrow the praying to Saints , and Angels from certaine old Heretickes , condemned by Epiphanius for this doctrine . Whereas those Heretickes praied both , to good , & bad Angels , & to those , who were falsly tearmed Angels ; accoūpting them as Patrons of their wickednes . And for these Circumstances only Epiphanius registreth thē for Hereticks . This sleight is much practised by diuers Protestāts in certaine points of the Catholicke Religion . Therefore be sure to see the words of the Fathers so condemning them , in the Fathers owne bookes ; which if you do , you shall discouer wonderfull forgery , and deprauation of the said Fathers writings , vsed by the Protestants . 16. If it be vrged , that the deniall of Free-will ( for example , and so of other Articles of Protestancy ) was taught by Manichaeus ; and consequently , that the Protestant faith is as ancient , as those primitiue times . Reply , that this particuler Hereticke , or that particuler Sectary did teach , but one , or other Protestant Article , and were instantly written against for such their Innouation , the said Men being Catholicke in other points . And therefore you may truly auerre , that the vrging of such Examples are wholy impertinent , either for the proofe of the antiquity of Protestancy , or for the visibility of the Protestant Church in those daies . 17. When you produce the ancient Fathers against the Protestants , their common shift is to make an opposition betweene the Scripture , and the Fathers ; mantaining that to follow the Fathers iudgment in faith , is to reiect , and abandon the Scripture ; and that themselues are to be pardoned for preferring the Scripture before the Fathers . But to this you may answere , that seeing the Fathers do admit , and reuerence the scripture in as high a degree , as the Protestants do ; The maine question , and doubt here is onely , whether the Fathers , or the Protestants do more truly expound the Scripture . 18. When a Catholicke doth alleadge the Fathers , the Protestants do seeke to lessen their authorities seuerall waies , as by obiecting either another Father , or the said Father in another place against himselfe , so falsly traducing him , as a mantainer of contrary Doctrines . In like sort , by obiecting some confessed errour of the Father produced by the Catholicke ; which cheifly houldeth in Origen , Tertullian , and Cyprian . But to this last point , you may answere ; that you produce the Fathers in such Catholicke Points , touching the which , they were not written against by any other Father ; and therefore their authority therein is of force ; since it is presumed hereby , that all the other Fathers ( and consequently all the Church of God ) agreed with them therein ; whereas their confessed errours were impugned by Augustine , Hierom , Epiphanius , and others . 19. Do not admit this , as good : some Fathers do interpret this , or that text of scripture figuratiuely ; therefore the said Fathers teach , that it is not to be expounded literally . This is a meere sophisme ; for seeing diuers texts of scripture are capable ( besides the literall ) of allegoricall sences ( as all the learned Catholicks , and Protestants do acknowledg ) therfore the figuratiue sence doth not exclude , but rather often presupposeth , and admitteth the literall . According hereto , S. Augustine passing ouer ( as presumed , and granted ) the literall sence of those wordes : qui bibit meum Sanguinem &c. allegorically expoundeth in this sort ; h bibere Sanguinem Christi ; est crederein Christum . 20. You are here also to conceiue , that diuers Protestants do call our Catholicke Doctrines , as they are defended by vs , Superstition , Idolatry , Blasphemies ; but as they are taught by the ancient Fathers , they mildly stile the very same Doctrines , Errours , Scarrs , Blemishes . The reason of the different appellation of them in the Fathers is , in that they would not seeme to breake with the Fathers , or to be of a seuerall Church from them ; whereas they call the same Doctrines in vs , by the former aggrauating tearmes ; to imply to their followers , that we Catholicks ( as supposed by them to professe Superstition , Idolatry , Blasphemies , &c. ) are not of the true Church of Christ . By this you may discerne the Protestants , both Malice , and Subtilty . 21. You must be wary to obserue , and distinguish , when a Father writeth doctrinally , and sententially ( ex professo ) of any subiect , from that , which he writeth Antagonisticè , and in heate of dispute with his Aduersary , touching the said subiect : since in the first kind his positiue , and true iudgment is clearely set downe , and for such his authority ( thence deduced ) is to be embraced : Whereas in this later kind , he often disputeth , ad personam ; and so some-times ( either through vehemency , or for his greater present aduantage ) writeth more loosely , and not so reseruedly , as the Catholicke doctrine in that point requireth . According hereto , some of the ancient Fathers , writing against Pelagius , and his sect ( who ascribed ouer much to Free-will ) did not ( perhaps ) so fully dispute in defence of the Catholicke Doctrine of Free-will , as they might haue donne . This course they tooke ( of which the Protestants make aduantage ) that thereby they might the more easily conuince their Aduersaries Heresy , resting so much on the contrary side . 22. In like sort , the Fathers some-times perhaps in a Rhetoricall , and amplifying manner , do vse certaine transcendent speaches ( as also some more moderne Catholicks haue donne ) in praise of our Blessed Lady , or in honour of the Crosse , or the like ; then being taken literally , can well be iustified . But they were the more bold to do , because they ( as then hauing no Aduersaries to their Catholicke Doctrines in those points ) might rest assured , that their wordes would be taken in that pious sence ( and no other ) wherein they deliuered them . But if they had foreknowne , that there would haue come in after times such sectaries , who would so rigidly , and literally insist in all such their sentences , perusing euery word , and sillable of them , and racking them to the worst construction ( as now the Protestants do ) they would ) no doubt ) haue writen more reseruedly , and cautelously of those points . But little did they thinke , that any succeeding Men , ( professing themselues to be Christians ) would euer so vncharitably ) haue detorted their words , from their intended sence . 23. Touching the Notes of the Church of Christ , prescribed by the Protestants ; which are the true preaching of the Word , and a right administration of the Sacraments ; you must here know , that these Notes are set downe by them for two respects , and with great subtilty : The one is , to auoid our Catholicke Notes of Antiquity , Visibility , Succession &c. which notes they foresee , cannot be iustified of their owne Protestant Church : The second , and more principall reason of this their proceeding is , that here by they may reduce the proouing , which is the true Church , to their owne priuate spirit , and iudgment ; because themselues will be Vmpiers , and Iudges ( not admitting any other mens censures therein ) when , and where the VVord is truly preached , and the Sacraments rightly administred : So subtle ( you see ) is Nouelisme in Faith for the patronage of it selfe . 24. Striue to be more conuersant , and ready ( if so your oportunity , and occasions will not suffer you , to be ready in all ) in such Controuersies , which cons●● in practise ; as about Praying to Saints , Indulgences , Worshiping of Images , Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament , Communion vnder one kinde &c. then in others , which rest only in beleife , and speculation . Seeing the vulgar Protestant with whom you are ( in likelihood ) much to conuerse , soonest taketh exception against those former , and will expect greater satisfaction in them ; because they being subicct to the sense , ( in regard of their daily practise ) come nearest within their Capacity ; and are by them often charged ( through the calumny of their cheife Maisters , abusing their credulity ) with many supposed abuses . 25. Touching those Articles , or Cōtrouersies , which chiefly rest in speculation , be well traueled in the question touching the Infallibility of Gods Chureh , ●s also in that other question , that the Scripture ( without the Churches attestation ) cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture ; and that all points of beleife do not receiue their proofe from scripture alone ; seeing that these two potētially include in themselues most of all other Cōtrouersies . Also be most ready in the question touching the continuall Visibility of the Protestants Church ( seeing the Protestants must grant their Church to haue beene euer visible , if they will auerre it to be the true Church of Christ , ) & , Micheas , if euer you dispute with any Protestant , I could wish , if so the liberty of choicely on your part , & that you afore-hand well furnish , & arme your selfe to that end ; that you would make electiō to dispute of this point ; for if you be well experienced therein , you shall mightely confound your Aduersary ; he not being able ( euen by his owne Brethrens confessions ) to instance ( for many Centuries , and ages together ) so much , as the being of one Protestant . Thus farre ( Micheas ) of such obseruations breifly and plainly deliuered , without applying most of them to any particular subiect ; wherewith it is conuenient you should be instructed , before you enter into any conflict with any Protestant , diuers others may be adioyned to these , but that I am afraid , I should tyre you with a wearisome repetitiō of them ; and your owne experience hereafter will best direct you in such animaduersions . MICHEAS My Lord Cardinall I do much prise these your instructions ; most of them seruing , as so many loopeholes , through which we may espy the subtle approach of the Enemy ; or rather as so many Counter-murs to withstand his secret molitions and attempts : ( i ) Dolus an virtus , quis in hoste requirat ? And though these your premonitions ( or rather premunitions , since by them I may be fore-armed against the assault of the aduersary ) be now but generally set downe , without any particular application ( as your Lordship saith ) yet hereafter I will incorporate them in such points , or passages of dispute , as iust oportunity , and occasion may present . And here according to your Lordships desire , I will labour in those Controuersies , consisting cheifly in practise , by you specified ; and I will also most painefully , and elaborately furnish my selfe with reading , touching the question of the visibility of the Protestants Church . The which question , I do promise your Lordship ( according as you wished me ) shal be the subiect of my next discourse , whensoeuer my fortune shal be to contest with any learned Protestant ; for this point being well , and throughly prosecuted , I hold it most choaking , and mortall to the aduersary , as your Lordship aboue did affirme . But now my Lord , the time is farre spent , and I feare , I haue detained you ouer long in these your learned discourses . And now I confesse , I thinke it long , till I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme , which shall Wash away in me all spots , and filth , both of Originall , and Actuall sinne ; referring my taking of Priesthood to such oportunity , and season , as you in your owne wisedome shall hold conuenient . CARD . BELLARM. Micheas , as concerning your intended implanting in Christs Church by Baptisme , your desire thereof I much commend ; seeing in things of this nature , to will to do well , is a doing well . For your actuall Baptising ( whereby you shall cease to be descended , from the loines of your first Parent ) know you , that we are at this present in that Holy-weeke , in which the Redeemer of the world was by the Iewes crucified ; a time ( among some other seasons of the yeare ) appointed by the Catholicke Church , for the baptising of such Iewes , as through Gods infinite Grace are conuerted to the Faith of Christ . If therefore it please you , to morrow to repaire to the Cathedrall Church of this Citty , you shall finde me there , prepared to minister to you ( according to your request ) the Sacrament of Baptisme , with all it Christian rites , and Ceremonies . And after in conuenient , and fitting time , I will conferre vpon you the holy Order of Priesthood . MICHEAS . My Lord Cardinall , till then I will take leaue of you , acknowledging my selfe to be your Lordships in all obseruancy ; and wil be ready ( with the assistance of the highest ) at the place appointed , to expect that happy houre . FINIS . GOD SAVE THE KING . THE CONCLVSION HEre ( Learned Academians ) endeth our first Dialogue ; where you are to suppose , that according to their former intended meetinge the next day , Micheas is Baptised by the Cardinall ( who being thereby , in a Christum tinctus , induit Christum ) and within some short time after , he receiueth the holy function of Priesthood , by the imposition of the hands of the said Cardinall . What is feigned to haue happened to Micheas after his departure from the Cardinall , the two subsequent Dialogues will discouer Touching the precedent subiect of this first Dialogue if it please you but to fanne , and seuer away , what is fictitious , and imaginary therein , from what is true , and warranted with many proofs , you shall finde , ( I hope ) that the arguments produced , are of sufficient weight , to sway any mans iudgments , ( not drunken with preiudice of Opinion ) to acknowledg that to this day , there was neuer any change yet made in the Church of Rome , so much , as in one dogmaticall Article of Faith , or point of importance , ( which is the matter here in question ) and that therefore the Protestants inconsiderate malignity is hereby the more discouered ; who so frequētly traduce , and conuiciate that Church , as the whore of Babilon ; which we Catholicks do vndertake ( euen with an expugnable confidence ) to Prooue , that she is the intemerate , and chaste spouse of Christ : so certaine it is , that these Men b cease not to peruert the straight waies of the Lord. Now my Conclusion ( Vvorthy Men ) shall chiefly rest in a true , and reall retorting of that vpon our Aduersaries which doctour VVhitakers , and other Protestants do falsly obtrude vpon our Church : so shall the accuser rest chargeable with the accusation , and the accused become assoiled , and freed . My meaning is , I will briefly here shew , that it is the Protestant Faith , and Religion , which hath made a manifest change , and alteration from that Faith , and Religion , which the Church of Rome sucked from the breasts of her first instructours ; howsoeuer the Protestants labour ( by all wit , and other meanes ) to cloath their Innouations in the faire attire of a reuerend and regardable Priority of being . I will insist in the chiefest articles mantained at this present by the Protestants , and will set downe the maine circumstances , necessarily attending ( as aboue is made playne ) euery change in Religion : To wit , the Doctrine , which is newly broached ; the Person , by whom it was first taught ; the Imposition of a new name ( for the most part ) vpon the beleeuers of that doctrine , drawne from the first Authour ; in whō all his followers were originally contained , as the branches of a tree are vertually in the roote : The time , when euery such Protestant Article was first anciently introduced : The Persons by whō those Articles were at their first beginning impugned : And finally the Church , or visible society of Christians , out of which ( as more ancient ) those sectaries ( by their first forging of their said points of Protestancy ) did depart , and go from . And to beginne . The Doctrine of the Churches Inuisibility was first taught by Donatus , and of him his followers were called Donatists . This Heresie at it first rising , was written against , and impugned by S. c Augustine . In like sort , the Donatists , were the first , who did ouerthrow Altars , and cast out holy Oile ; but contradicted herein by d Optatus and e Augustine . The deniall of praier for the dead ( and consequently the deniall of the doctrine of Purgatory ) as also the abrogation of all set Fasts , were first brought in by Aerius : his followers , for such his doctrines stiled : Aëriani . These his false doctrines were recorded , and contradicted , by S. f Augustine . The deniall of Free-will was set on foote by Manicheus ; from him are descended the Manichees . His doctrine herein was writen against by g S. Hierome , and h S. Augustine . The deniall of single , and vnmarried life was first taught by Vigilantius . He also taught , that the praiers of the dead are not heard for the liuing ; and consequently he taught , that we ought not to pray to Saints . His schollers tearmed Vigilantinians . His doctrines impugned by i Hierome . Equallity of Works was first taught by Iouinian ; He also broached the Heresie , that our Blessed Lady in the birth of our Sauiour lost her Virginity . His followers , Iouiniani . His Heresies exploded by k Hierome , and l Augustine . The doctrine , that all Sinnes are mortall , was first stamped by Pelagius . He further taught , that the Baptisme of children was not necessary . The firsts of these his doctrines was writen against by m S. Hierome ; the second by n Innocentius , and o S. Augustine , his followers Pelagiani . The deniall of all worship due to the Images of Christ , and his Saints , was first introduced by Zena●as Persa ; who is therefore recorded , and contradicted by p Nic●phorus . The doctrine that God is the authour of Sinne ( which necessarily followeth , by taking away Free-will from Man ) was first sowed by Simon Magus ; but impugned by q Vincentius ●yrinensis . The deniall of enioyned times of Pennance was first taught by the Hereticks called Audiani , and contradicted by r Theodoret. The deniall of the Possibility of keeping the Commendeme●s was first broached by certaine Hereticks in S. Hieroms time and impugned by s Hierom and t Augusti●● . The deniall of all reuerent estimation particulerly to the Crosse , or Crucifix of Christ , was first inuented by Probianus ; and he recorded , and reprehended therefore , in u the Tripartite History . The deniall of the Reall Presence was first mantained , by certaine Hereticks in S. Ignatius his time , as x Theodoret relateth , and condemneth them for the same . The deniall of Priests hauing power to remit sinnes , was first iustified by Nouatus ; his schollers were called Nouatiani ; his Heresie recorded , and condemned by y Theodoret , and z Eusebius . Finally , to omit diuers other Protestant doctrines , for greater breuity ; the doctrine teaching , that sinne could not hurt a man , if so he had faith ( a Paradox reuiued by a Luther ) was first inuented by Eunomius , but impugned by b S. Augustine : his schollers stiled Eunomiani . Thus farre of Protestant doctrines broached by certaine impious Hereticks in those former times ; who though they be long since departed this world ; yet their misery is , that their end cannot be reputed their end , nor their death ; since in regard of this their change of faith , and innouations introduced by them into Gods Church , they doubtlesly liue ( if they had not a finall repentance ) in a perpetuity of insufferable tormēts . Now concerning the times , when all these former points of Protestancy did first take their being ; this Circumstance ( for the most part ) may be taken from the times , wherein the Fathers ( who did impugne , and write against the said doctrines ) did liue ; seeing no sooner any of the said doctrines began to rise , and get on wing ; but presently one Father , or other was ready ( by his penne ) to suppresse , and beat downe the same . And thus we finde that sentence most true ; to wit , To c reduce an Heresie to it beginning , is a confutation of the said Heresie . That all these former prime Hereticks did depart , and go out of a more ancient society of Christians , then themselues ( to wit , out of the then visible , and knowne society of vs Catholicks , in those times ) according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt d ex nobis ; and consequently , that it was those Hereticks ( who by drawing to themselues , the impurity of the former errours , became the channels ( as I may say ) of the Church , cleansing , and freeing her , from all filth , and ordure of I 〈…〉 ouation ) who made the change , and alteration , is p●ooued seuerall waies . First , because it appeareth from the aboue alleadged Confessions of the learned Protestants , that our Catholicke Faith was the only faith in those ages , generally beleeued , and that the Protestant Church ( supposing that afore it had beene in Being ) was as then by their like Confessions , wholy extinct , and inuisible . Secondly , the foresaid points of the former Hereticks departing from a more ancient community of Christians ; is further euicted , from the Fathers particuler charging this , or that Hereticke , with this , or that particuler Heresy only , for if either any , or all of them had ioyntly taught all the Articles of protestancy ( at this present beleeued ) then no doubt all the said Articles of protestancy , as then mantained by one man , had beene impugned , and writen against by the said Fathers , as well , as the particuler Heresies of this , or that particuler Hereticke are by them contradicted . Thirdly , in that the Fathers , who condemned the foresa●d Hereticks , were euer reputed most Orthodoxall , and pious Doctours , neither were they reprehended by any other Father , of Gods Church , for such their proceeding against those Hereticks , which consideration demonstrateth , that the whole Church of God did in those times agree in faith , and Religion with those Fathers , and against the aboue condemned , and nouelizing Hereticks : from whence we may further conclude , that the whole Church of Christ ( which hath authority to discerne , both true , and false doctrine ; as a straight line me sureth both a right , and crooked line ) did by the former Fathers ( as by her instruments ) condemne those Men for broaching such their Heresies . Fourthly , and lastly , ( for accession of more reasons ) the former point appeareth , from the consideration of the Nature of the former Heresies ; which seeing they , for the most part cōsist in Negations , ( as the deniall of Free-Will , deniall of Purgatory , deniall of the Reall Presence &c. ) do therefore presuppose a preexistency of the Affirmatiue doctrines , whereof they are meerely Negations : I meane they preadmit a former beleefe of the said doctrines of Free-will , of Purgatory , of the Reall Presence &c. For why should any Sectarie in those daies , rise vp to deny any of the said doctrines , if those doctrines had not beene afore beleeued ? From which it euidently followeth , that the Professours of the affirmatiue doctrines were that society of Christians , out of which ( as more ancient ) the former Hereticks originally departed , and went out . And with this ( most remarkeable Men ) I end , remitting to your owne cleare eyed iudgmēts ( now after the perusing of this smale Treatise ) whether it was the present Church of Rome , or the Protestant Church , which hath made this so much inculcated change , and alteration from that Faith , which first was preached , and taught in the sayd Church of Rome , by the Apostles . Laus Deo et Beatae Virgini Mariae . THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEVV OR THE SECOND DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW Betweene . Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. Ochinus , who first planted Protestancy in England , in King Edward the sixt his raygne . Doctour Reynolds of Oxford . Neuserus cheife Pastour of Heidelberge , in the Palatinate . The Contents hereof the Argument following will show . Here is adioyned an Appendix , wherin is taken a short Suruey ( contayning a full Answere ) of a Pamphlet intituled : A Treatise of the Visibility , and Succession of the True Church in all ages . Printed Anno. 1624. Si dixerint vobis : Ecce in deserto est nolite exire ; Ecce in Penetralibus ; no●●●e credere . Math. 24. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM . Anno. M. DC . XXX . THE ARGVMENT . MICHAEAS , after the Disputation had betweene Cardinall Bellarmine , and D. Whitakers , touching Romes chang in Religion ; ( through which he was first made Catholicke and in short tyme after made Priest . ) trauelleth into many Countries , to see their Vniuersities , and places of learning . At the length he arriueth in England ; where from visiting of Cambridg , he cometh to Oxford . Then he findeth D. Reynolds , Ochinus , and Neuserus . They mooue him to become Protestant . He answereth , that the want of performace of the Prophecies , touching the Visibility of Christs Church , in the Protestant Church , induceth him besides other reasons to continue Catholicke . Hereupon they all begin a Disputation touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church , for former ages ; prefixing therto ( by mutuall consent ) a short Discourse of the Necessity of a continuall Visibility of the true Church . Michaeas so fully displayeth the insufficiency of the pretended Instances of Protestants , and of all other Arguments vrged for proofe thereof , That insteed , of Michaeas being to be made a Protestant by this Disputation ; Ochinus , and Neuserus , as not acknowledging the present Roman Church to be the true Church , and seing the Prophecies , not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church , do finally come to this point , to wit , absolutely , and openly to affirme , that the Church of Christ ( as not hauing the Prophecies accomplished in it , which were foretould to be performed in the true Church of God touching it Visibilitie ) is a false Church , and that our Sauiour Christ was a Seducer . Hereupon they both protest , that , from that tyme forward they do renounce the Christiā fayth , and do embrace the Iewish Religion ; and so teaching Circumcision , and reuiuing the Old law , they do turne blasphemous Iewes or Turks . Michaeas and D. Reynolds do vse vehement perswasions to them , to the contrary ; but their words preuayle not ; and so the disputatiō breaketh off . What courses Ochinus and Neuserus do after take for their spreading of Iudaisme , is hereafter set downe : And all the passages of their Reuolt are manifested , partly out of their owne wrytings , and partly from the acknowledgment of diuers learned Protestants : so as their Apostacy is not feigned , but true and reall . THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW WHEREIN IS DEMONSTRATED ; that the Protestant Church hath euer remayned Inuisible ; or rather hath not bene in Being , since the Apostles daies , till Luthers reuolt . DOCTOVR REYNOLDS . MICHAEAS , God saue you , I much reioyce to see you here in England ; And I congratulate your coming to this our Vniuersity of Oxford : I haue often heard of you through occasion of your former entercourse of disputes with my Brother D. Whitakers ; though it was neuer my fortune to see you before this present . MICHAEAS . I greatly thanke you M. Doctour , for this your kindnesse touching my coming hither ; you may know , that since my last seeing of D. Whitakers , I haue passed through diuers Countries , and Nations , moued thereunto ( notwithstanding my greate age ) through my owne innate desire of seeing places and Vniuersitis of erudition , and learning . Now at the last , I am arriued in England , and am immediatly comne frō visiting the Vniuersity of Cambridge : a place in my iudgment , much exceeding all prayses heretofore deliuered of it . But may I make bolde to enquire of you , who those two gentlemen here present , are ; whose externall comportments do euen depose , that their mindes are fayrely enriched with many Intellectuall good parts ; for it is certaine , that a mans outward cariadge is commonly the true shadow of the minde , cast by the light of the inward soule . DOCTOVR REYNOLDS You haue coniectured aright . For both these are men of great eminēcy for learuing . The elder of thē is called Ochinus , who being accompained with the learned Peter Martyr , did in King Edward the sixts tyme first a plant in England the doctrine of Caluin , after the Romish Religion was once abolished : One , whose presence in those dayes made Englād happie , whose after b absence made it Vnfortunate ; & whom all c Italy ( for he is an Italian ) could not equall . This other is Neuserus , the chiefe Pastour d of Heidelberge in the Palatinate : a man whō Nature , & his owne Industrie haue not placed in any lower roome of knowledge ; for he is transcendently learned , and hath much labored in dilating the Ghospel of Christ . Both these men are reciding here for the time , by reason of some late emergent occations , and businesse , tending to the aduancement of Christs Church . I could wish Michaeas , you were acquainted with them . MICHAEAS . Gentlemen . I greete you both in the salutation of the chiefe Apostle : e gratia vobis , & pax multiplicetur . And I am glad , that I am comne to that place , where the very wals , and streets ( in regard of such mens presence ) do euen Eccho forth learning and all good literature . OCHINVS . Worthy Michaeas ( for so I heare you called ) I willingly entertayne your acquaintance ; for learning I prize highly in any man , as holding it the chiefest riches ( next to true Religion ) wherewith the vnderstanding is endowed . NEVSERVS . And I as happily do congratulate your arriuall here ; for what company of men are more to be esteemed , then the Society of learned Men , where themselues ( though few in number ) are a sufficient Auditory to themselues ; Satis magnum alteri alter theatrum : they interchangeably giuing , and receiuing all content by their leatned discourses ? DOCTOVR REYNOLDS . Haue you had ( Michaeas ) a full sight of our Vniuersity , & Colledges ? If not ; we are ready to accompany you , throughout all the chiefe places thereof . MICHAEAS . I haue already seene them all ; and particularly your late erected schooles , ( wherin are dayly ventilated all questions , worthy the iudiceous eares of Schollers ) and your spatious liberary the very treasury , or storehouse of the Muses . And I must confesse , that during my long trauell , and perlustration of all Christendome , my eyes neuer beheld such two fayre places designed for Nurses of learning , as Oxford & Cambridge are ; the very honor , and glory of your Nation . For where are thete such healthfull , and pleasant seates for Vniuersityes both being placed in a Triangle from the chiefe Citty of the realme ? Such magnificent , and stately buildings , and Colledges fitting to be pallaces to so many Princes ? Such opulency of reuenews , and rich endowments , appropriated vnto them for the education of poore schollers ? Finally such pious statutes , Ordinances , and Decrees , left by their Founders for the aduancement of vertue , and learning ? All this is not to be matched ( I assure my selfe ) throughout the whole Circumference of the earth . Only the defect , and griefe is , that the Vniuersityes , & their liuings , being first instituted , & giuen by Catholicke Founders , and for the propagation of the Catholicke Religion ) for ; from them , as from two mayne sources , and welsprings , by the conduits of particuler Mens labors , the whole land ( touching sayth ) did receiue its watering ) are now most repugnantly from the first Erectors intention , turned to the depressing , and ouerthrow of the sayd Catholicke Religion : matter to be deliuered in Threnes , or Elegyes , and Accents of lamentation , and complaint . And such as the Vniuersityes are , so are the students ; many of them ( euen by my owne tryall ) of eleuated wits ; of transpearcing iudgments ; most skilfull in the learned tongues ; fraught with all choysnes of good letters ; and finally of a candide ingenuity in their comportments . D. REYNOLDS . Though reports do often multiply , and become greater in their owne agitation ; yet your prayses of our Academies I take for no amplification of speeches , but ( if credit may be giuen to many great trauellers ) for positiue , and measured truths . They both are two Sisters , linked in the bond of so inuiolable a friendship , and association , as that they may be well tearmed : Oxonium Cantabrigiense , and Cantabrigia Oxoniensis . Yet the elder of these two is Oxford ; And since I am a Sonne of her , I could haue wished , I had met with you before your Conference had with D. Whitakers , a Branch of Cambridge , and otherwise a Man of great talents , and parts . For I should haue hoped , that as Oxford is the elder Sister , so from a member of the elder Sister , you should haue receyued greater satisfaction in the light of the Ghospell ; then both by relation of others , and now by your owne ouertures , you haue . That Oxford is the elder Sister ( and therein hath her preeminence of her primogeniture ) we easely prooue ; for we deduce the first occasion of our Vniuersity ( though not the plantation ) euen from the tyme f of Brutus ; who , when he came into this Iland , was accompanyed with diuers learned Greeke Philosophers , who made choise of a place neere to Oxford , to seate themselues in , as a place most pleasant , and fitting for speculation , and study . After which tymes , Alphredus ( yongest Sonne of Ethelwolpe King of the West-saxons , about the yeare of the Incarnation . 873. ( himselfe being after King ) did translate those scholes of the greeke Philosophers ( which afore had suffred dishonour , and contempt ) to Oxford ; And then with Immunityes , liuings , and buildings , he gaue the first foundation to our Vniuersity . MICHAEAS . M. Doctour . I am no Herauld to discusse or proclayme Antiquityes . And I know not whether of these two Sisters be more ancient ; yet in that I will not be vngratefull vnto Cambridge , for my late kinde entertaynment , I will not conceale , what my Memory can truly yeild vnto , concerning the Antiquity of Cambridge , discoursed off by some of that Vniuersity . They * sayd , that Cantaber , who was Sonne of one of the Kings of Spayne , coming into England before the Incarnation of our Lord and Sauiour , 394. yeares , and marying a daughter of Gurguntius , King of the Britons , gaue first plantation , and Name to their Vniuersity ; and caused it to be frequented with Philosophers , and other learned men . Now of what credit both your Antiquities are , I know not ; if the one hath the prerogatiue in Antiquity : the other enioyeth it in statelinesse of buyldings . But howsoeuer these matters be , they are both most celebrious , and renowned Seminaryes of learning , and not drouping Academyes , as some are in other Countreyes . Seing it is your pleasure ( M. Doctour ) thus to entertayne discourse touching these famous places , I will acquaint you with two things , which since my first seeing of them I haue obserued . One is , that not only euery Colledge in it library , but diuers Studens in ech Colledge , haue in their studyes many Catholicke wryters and particulerly the so much much celebrated works of Bellarmyne , fayrely bound vp , and well stringed : But I feare , they are there placed rather for a compleate furnishing of their Libraryes , then for any great vse of reading them ; And so the benefit by them is no more then if a patient sending for pills to the Physitian , should neuer take them , but let them lye in his chamber window . D. REYNOLDS . It is farre otherwise ; for all those bookes mentioned , are much read by many of vs : And Bellarmynes arguments are refuted in our weekly Sermons , as occasion is incidently ministred from the Text. And my selfe particulerly haue publikely read in yonder greate Diuinity Schoole , that you see , as also haue writen against him . MICHAEAS . I know your selfe are learned , & withall I know you haue not only writen , but also read in confuting of him ; as a neere acquaintance of myne , who was an earewitnesse of your lectures , hath tould me . But as for others , who in their Sermons ( euen obtorto collo ) will needes hale Bellarmyne in , I am halfe perswaded , they do it with the like policy , which some men liuing about great Townes , and willing to get the reputation of valour , are accustomed to do ; that is , they purposely quarell ( thereby to be spoken of for their courage ) with some one , or other chiefe professed Hacster , or Swashbukler . D. REYNOLDS . O Michaeas . Your censure is ouer vncharitable . It is the desire of hauing , the Truth tryed , which prouokes our Deuynes in their Sermons to trace Bellarmyne ; that so the schollers ( their Auditours ) may more easily declyne the obliquity of his pathes . MICHAEAS . I can not much blame you , to set the best glasse vpon your Brethrens actions : But this I must say , that those Schollers of your Vniuersiryes , which are of cleere vnderstandings , not forestauled by badly preiudging of Catholicke Religion ; but aboue all , hauing sufficiency of temporall meanes , to support their states , and not expecting to rise by Ecclesiasticall liuings ( the most dangerous Bayte of these tymes ) must in all morall certainty fauour in their priuate iudgment the Catholicke partie , if so with diligence they peruse the Cardinalls works , and other Catholicke writers But otherwise ; it is a death , when a Man of ripe age , and well furnished with learning , is brought through want of meanes to say : O how must I liue ? The Roman Religion ( I see ) threatneth pouerty , disgrace , and perhapps the rope too ; the Protestant promiseth reputation , honour , and riches . Then the Vnderstanding , and the Will do easily partake together , to the betraying of the Soule , by entertaining an erroneous Religion ; priuiledged with authority , seconded with the streame of the tymes , and aduantaged through meanes of preferring : and here then that Sentence houldeth it force : As gold is tryed by the stone , so man by gold . But let me stay my selfe , I feare , I haue spoken ouerlowde , and the Schollers ouerhearing me out of their Colledge windows ( being so neare to vs ) may much blame this my Censure . The second thing I note ( but pardon me ( most florishing Academies , ) I protest , I speake with the Apostle , in g charitate non ficta , and not in any vpbrayding sense ) is , that feminine Seruitours , as employed for seruyle vses , haue an ouer-free accesse into the Colledges ; a sight most strange in Catholicke vniuersityes and ( as Iam enformed ) much disliked by your owne Protestants . O where vigour of youth , Mansinnate propension , the present inuiting obiect , and the priuatnes of the place , do all conspire together , what dangerous effects of this Nature , may they produce ? And we all see , how apt the fyer is to take hould of any neare combustible mater . But I had almost forgotten my selfe therefore leauing these poynts , as meerly Perereà , or impertinēcyes , let vsdescend to some more serious discourse . Touching my present fayth , whereat you glance , I grant , I was a Iew , both by byrth , and Religion , till by the infinite mercy of the Highest , and the charitable endeuour of that most Illustrious , and learned Cardinall in his disputes with D. Whitakers , euen through waight of argument , I was forced to embrace the Catholicke Fayth ; My Iudgement being till then , but as Plato his Basatabula , propending indifferently to Catholicke , and Protestant ; and ready to receiue the wryting , & Impression of that Religion ( whichsoeuer it should be ) that came presented to myne eyes in the fayre attyre of venerable Antiquity . OCHINVS . I do much grieue ( Michaeas ) to see your candour , and integrity thus distayned with the aspersion of superstition , and glad I should be , to lend a hand for the pulling you out of the myre of your present errours . NEVSERVS . Doubtlesly ( Michaeas ) your choyce of Religion hath proceeded from an indigested , and raw censure , which you haue made of the passages of the former disputation , by you mentioned : And therefore if you had gone with greater leasure therein , your successe had bene the more fortunate : But yet your sicknes is not vnto death ; fot there is tyme for your cure : And since Grace , and Temptation are the seedes of the Holy Ghost , and the Diuell ; embrace that offered vnto you by God , by shewing you the light of his Gospell ; and ouercome this , being the bayte of Antichrist ; and my seruiseable labour shall no way be wanting to further so happy a change . And the more I commiserate your present estate ; you erring out of Ignorance , not out of malice : for we see , Saluation of your soule is the Circumference , within which all your thoughts are bounded . MICHAEAS . Gentlemen , I thanke you all , and do interpret your words in the same language , in which you did deliuer them ; I meane , in the Dialect of your Charity , And I see , how ready your zeale is to take fyer vpon the least occasion of discourse . Therefore assure your selues , I am not ashamed of my fayth . I am a Roman Catholicke at least , and through the grace of God ( that working , and efficatious Grace , I meane , which is the stone , set in the Ring of Nature ) I am resolued so to liue , and dye . My resolution is so inalterable herein , as that I trust through him , who for his owne glory , and in his owne Cause , is euer ready to fortify the weake , that your strongest assaults in dispute ( for I see , thither your speeches tend ) shall not be able to beate me off the Station of my present Profession : And I am the more confident , in that with God , causes are heard to speake , not Persons . And further you may rest certifyed , that since the worthy Cardinals dispute , with D. Whitakers , I haue spent my whole tyme in the study of the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks , and the Protestants ; and haue found diuers other most forcible inducements for my continuance in that fayth , of which already I haue made election : so certayne it is , that the great Motion of Religion ( as it is newly entertayned by the iudgment ) turneth vpon many wheeles ; one still mouing and seconding another . D. REYNOLDS . May we entreate of you , to show what Reasons are most preuayling , for your not incorporating your selfe within our Protestant Church ? MICHEAS . M. Doctour I will. Besides the Argument handled betweene the Cardinall and D. Whitakers , touching the supposed change of the fayth of Rome ( which to me still remaynes an vnauoydable Demonstration ) many other Reasons are , and among the rest , this oue : I find by my perusall of Ecclesiasticall Historyes , that the Protestant Church had it first being , & ( as I may say ) it Creation in the dayes of Luther ( or rather after ) then ( and not before ) coming out of an Abysse of Nothing Now what , warrant can I haue ( after my leauing of the Iewish fayth , which is confessed to be the true fayth for seuerall thousand yeares ) to implant my selfe in that Society of Christians , whose Church ( my owne age being almost 70. ) is not thirty yeares elder , then I am ? The truth of which point is euicted , in that you are not able to instance the being of Protestants in any former Age. Now it is an inexpugnable verity , that the Church of Christ is euer , and in all ages to be most visible in her members . Whereas on the contrary part some Protestants , well discerning the want in their Church of this so necessary a Visibility , haue bene forced to forge in their mindes , a certayne imaginary , and Inuisible Church ; and teaching that it is not necessary , that the Church of Christ should be at all tymes Visible ; but that it may , and often hath bene , not only inconspicuous , and inglorious , but wholy latent , and vnknowne . But I feare I haue made an vnpleasing , and ouer deepe incision in so dangerous a wound of your Church . D. REYNOLDS . See , how the ambushment of your owne Passions ( I meane of preiudice and dislike ) betray your Iudgment . And see , how foulely euen in the beginning you are deceaued ; and how one errour in your words inuolues in it selfe a second errour . For first we are ready , and prepared at all tymes , to prooue by particuler , and most warrantable Instances , that there haue bene men in euery age since the Apostles , professing our Protestant Religion : So farre off we are from acknowledging , that the riuers of our fayth first issued out of Luthers fountayne . Secondly , it is your mistaking , to thinke that the learned Protestants ( for what any Anonymous , and illiterate scribler may blot his paper with , by defending the contrary doctrine , we regard not ) as acknowledging such a defect of Protestants , do teach an inuisibility of the Church of Christ , especially after the tymes of the comming of the Messias . For all we concurrently maintayne , that the Professours of the true fayth must at all tymes , without the least interruption , be made knowne , and discernable ; And we further iustify , that a want of such a Visibility destroyeth , and annihila●eth the Church of God. MICHAEAS . But will these two learned Men conspire with you ( M. Doctour ) in defending this euer necessary Visibility of the Church ; and this without any retyring backe herein , or lessening , and mincing the poynt , once afore granted ? OCHINVS . I speake for my selfe . I am so confident therein , as that I am ready at this instant , to maintayne it agaynst any ; and this from the prophecyes of Gods sacred writ , wherein the palme , and victorious state of the Church ( in subiugating to it the Gentils ) is at large soretould to be in these after tymes , euer most illustrious , and radiant . NEVSERVS . And I as confidently do auerre the same , euen from the sayd former deuine Oracles ; and am prepared ( if neede should require ) to solue all such texts of Scripture , which in an ignorant , and mistaking eye , may seeme to import an Inuisibility of the Church at any tyme. MICHAEAS . You all answere me to my full content , and aboue my expectation . Well then , let vs eauen , and playne the way of our ensuing dispute , by resting vpon some one granted ground on all sides . Which ground is the establishment of the Churches Visibility . For it being once presumed , that the true Church of God must at all tymes enjoy this Visibility ; it then most consequently followeth , that you are obliged , eyther to produce examples of Protestant Professours , for euery age since Christ ; or els to grant , that the Protestant Church is not the true Church , but a late erected Conuenticle . Therefore in regard hereof , I hould it fitting , that all of vs should ioyne our forces together , for the proofe of this chiefe , and head principle of the Churches Visibility : you then Ochinus ( if it shall please you ) may according to your former proffer , vndertake the probation of it from the Scripture . Neuserus will ( he sayth ) recconcile all such chiefe seeming passages of the Scripture , as may make show to euict the contrary . And I will entreate of you ( M. Doctour ) to fortify the sayd Verity , from the learned Monuments of the auncient fathers ( in whose wrytings ( no doubt ) you haue bene much conuersant ) as also from force of Reason . My selfe will lastly reuet , and warrant the same point , from the often ingeminated acknowledgments of the most markable , & learned Protestants . In whose bookes ( I confesse ) I haue much trauelled , since my conuersion from Iudaisme ; And whose authorities I shall haue often occasion to produce throughout this conference . For now you may take notice , that I haue cast off all my former outward comportment of a Iew , and am not only in fayth , but also in my studyes , my Idiome of speech , and euery way els , wholy Christian . D. REYNOLDS . I like well your method here intended ; and indeed it is that , which the Philosophers call : Ordo Naturae . For by this meanes , we first handle the Thesis to wit , whether the Church of God is to be visible , or no. That done , we next descend to the Hypothesis ; Which is , if the Protestants Church hath euer enioyed this Visibility , or not . Neyther can any iudicious man hould this first part , as but certayne Prolegomena , tending only to the better vnfoulding of the second Part ; for it is indeed a primary essentiall , and radicall point , and first in all necessity to be discussed . For what auayleth it to prooue , that there haue bene Professours of Protestancy in all ages since Christ , if it rest doubtfull , whether the Church of Christ exacteth such a necessity of it Professours in all ages , or no ? Therefore ( Michaeas ) for my part I w●llingly vndergoe the taske desired by you . OCHINVS . We all ioyne hands herein ; Thus we see , that ech of vs is prepared to cary a stone , to the building of this fort ; which being once erected , wil be able to endure the shot of her greatest Enemyes . NEVSERVS . I am most ready to performe my former assumed Scene : therefore delay no tyme , but begin . OCHINVS . Well then , seing the proofes drawne from the sacred Scripture , are worthily euer to haue the first place ; and seing I haue voluntarily imposed this labour vpon my selfe , I will first begin . Now for the confirmation of this supreme Verity of the Churches Visibility , we will produce our first proofes from those Prophecyes , which foretell , that the Church after the cōming of the Messias shal be miraculously multiplyed . Which extraordinary multiplicity of Professours must needs imply a Visibility of them . As where it is sayd of the Church : The Iles k shall wayte for thee . Their Kings shall miuister vnto thee ; and thy gates shal be continually open ; Neyther day nor night shall they be shut ; that men may bring to thee the riches of the gentills . And agayne : Kings l shal be thy nursing Fathers , and Queenes thy mothers . And yet more : I will m giue thee the Heathens for thy inheritance , and the end of the earth for thy Possession . And lastly ( to omit diuers others such predictions of the Churches encrease , and amplitude , it is sayd : enlarge n the places of thy tents , spread out the curtaynes of thy habitation ; for thou shalt encrease on the right hand , and on the left ; thy seede shall possesse the Gentills ; and inhabit the desolate Cityes . Now how can these Prophecyes , touching the enlargement of the Church , be truly applyed to that Church , which shall consist of so few , as that it shal be sometimes absolutely Inuisible ? Or how shall it gates be continually open , and shut neyther day nor night ( as aboue is prophecyed of it ) if it shall remayne at any time , in a night of Latency ? In this next place , I will alledge such texts of holy Scripture , wherin we fynd the word : Ecclesia or Church ; In all which ( without exception ) by the word : Church , is signifyed a visible congregation of Men. The places ( among others , for breuity omitted ) may be these : Numbers 20. Why haue you brought the Church of the Lord into solitude ? But this Church was the knowne , and visible people of Israëll , which came out of Aegypt . In like sort , it is sayd . 3. Kings 8. The King turned his face , and blessed all the Church of Israell ; for all the Church of Israell did stand &c. Math 18. Tell the Church , & if he will not heare the Church , let him be as an Heathen or Publican But how can we be commanded to tell the Church , if we do not know which is the Church ? And if in all our spirituall necessities , we are commanded to repaire , to the Church , then followeth it , that the Church at all tymes must be visible . Act. 20. Take heede to your selues , and to the whole flock , wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops , regere Ecclesiam Det , to gouerne the Church of God. But how could they gouerne the Church of God , if they knew it not ? Act. 15. They being brought on the way by the Church , passed through Ph●enice and Samaria . And agayne there : They were receaued of the Church , and the Apostles . Act. 18. Paule went vp , and saluted the Church . Now how can these texts be possibly applyed to any Inuisible congregation or company of men . Furthermore , S. Paul speaketh of himselfe , that he persecuted the Church of God , as in 1. Cor. 15. Galat. 1. Philipp . 3. In all which places the word : Church , is vsed : But it is well knowne , whom S. Paul did persecute . And in 1. Timoth. 3. It is sayd how to conuerse indomo Dei , quae est Ecclesia Dei , in the house of the liuing God , which is the Church of God. But how could Timothee know , how to conuerse in the house of God , except he did know , which was this house ? To all which former texts of Scripture , I annex this one note ( a point much to be considered ) that not any one place of Scripture can be produced , wherein the word : Church , is named , but that a Visible , and externall cōpany of men is necessarily vnderstood thereby . To the former Scriptures may be added certayne descriptions of the Church in other passages thereof ; as in Esay . 2. Daniel . 3. Michaeas 4. the Church is compared to a conspicuous mountayne , which cannot be vnseene , according to the expositions of Ierom , o Austin , p and the Protestants . q In like sort in Psalm . 18. those words : He placed his tabernacle in the Sunne : are thus paraphrazed by S. r Austin : In manifesto posuit Ecclesiam suam &c. He placed his tabernacle in an open place ; his tabernacle is his Church , which is placed in the Sunne , not in the night , but in the day . Thus Austin . Another most illustrious & conuincing passag of the Scripture for the Churches Visibility , is that in the Epistle to the Ephesians c. 4. where it is sayd of Christ : He gaue Pastours , & Doctours to the consummation of Saints , vnto the worke of the Ministery , till we all meete in the Vnity of Fayth ; that is ( as D. s Fulke interpreteth ) for euer . These words necessarily import , that the Church of Christ must at all tymes , and seasons ( and this without any interruption ) haue Pastours to administer the Sacraments , and preach the word . Which exposition being granted , implyeth necessarily an euer Visibility of the Church . For how can those Doctours , and Pastours preach at all tymes , and vpon all occasions the word of God , & administer the Sacraments , if they be concealed , and lye in secret ? Or how can the persons , to whom the Word is preached , & the Sacraments dispensed , become vnknowne or Inuisible ? That this is the true interpretation of the former text of the Ephesians , is generally taught by our owne learned men : For according hereto , D. Whitakers teacheth , the preaching of the Word , and the administration of the Sacraments , to be so necessary to the Church , that he thus saith : t Si adsunt , Ecclesiam constituunt ; & tollunt , si aufer antur . With whom conspireth D. Willet , thus saying of the administratiō of the Word , & Sacraments : These u marks cannot be absent from the Church , and it is no longer a true Church then it hath these Markes . And hēce it is , that D. Whitakers further sayth , that the preaching of the word , and the administration of the Sacramēts are : Ecclesiae x proprietates essentiales ; essentiall propr●etyes of the Church : And that D. Fulke thus affirmeth : Christ y will suffer no particuler Church to continue without a seruāt to ouersee it : And that , a Pastours , & Doctours must be in the Church , till the end of the World , euen frō Christs time to Luthers age , yea our sayd D. Fulke further affirmeth , that these ( b ) Pastours , & Doctours must resist all false opinions , with open reprehension . Vnto our former brethren accord other Protestant Deuines , thus wryting : The c ministery is an ossentiall Marke of the true Church . Finally Caluin comparteth with vs all herein : saying : the Church can neuer want Pastours , and Doctours : So truly do we Protestants interpret the words of Esay : Vpon thy d walls ô Ierusalem , I haue set watchmen , all the day , and all the night for euer : they shall not be silent . Now from these premisses we demonstraciuely proue the euer , and vninterrupted visibility of the Church : a point so euident , that our owne learned Protestants do ( according to the former doctrine ) defyne a visible Church in these words : A e visible Church is a congregation of the faithfull people , where the word is preached , and the Sacraments ministred ; Which definition is also allowed by Doctour f Willet ; and which euen in reason it selfe is warrantable ; since the Church , as enioying the administration of the Word , and Sacraments , must ( euen in that respect ) become visible , as we said aboue . And thus farre of this prophecy of the Apostle , in the explication whereof I haue stayed the longer , in that it irrefragably conuinceth the poynt now handled . And here I end , touching the necessary Visibility of Gods Church , prooued out of the sacred Scriptures . NEVSERVS . You might haue added ( Ochinus ) to the former Propheeyes , that it is in another place foretould of the Church of the new Testament , that it Pastours g shal be daily multiplyed , to minister vnto God ; And this ( not with any interruption herein , but ) euen h from month to month , and from Sabaoth to Sabaoth . That all this is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Messias , appeareth from the Annotations of the English Bibles , vpon the Chapters here cited , printed 1576. You also might further haue insisted in that other Prophecy ; that the Kingdome i of Christ shall not be giuen ouer to an other People , but shall stand for euer ; And that , it k shal be an eternall glory , and ioy from generation to generation . All which passages to be meant of the Church , is acknowledged by all learned Protestants . Now how vntowardly , and vnapt●y these passages ( with the former by you alledged ) sort to a company of Professours , shut vp in so secret a manner ; as that no man can take notice of them , I referre to any mans iudgement , not wholy blinded with partiality , and preiudice . But I feare ( Ochinus ) I haue wronged you , in vndertaking part of your assumed taske : therefore I will cease , and descend ( as afore I promised ) to answere such chiefe places of the Scripture , as are by some vrged in their sily wrytings ( the impostumous swelling of their froathy penne ) for the supporting of the Churches imaginary Inuisibility . D. REYNOLDS . I pray you ( Neuserus ) proceed therein ; since obscure passages in any kind of learning not explayned , do often suggest tacit obiections , perplexing , and intricating the iudgments of the weake , and ignorant . NEVSERVS . I will. And first for example , are vsually obiected those of Elias , when he sayd : relictus l sum solus , I am left alone . As also , that sentence of the Prophet : deficiet m hostia , & sacrificium , the Oast , and sacrifice spall cease . And agayne , that of the Apostle : Nisi n venerit discessio primum &c. Except there come first a departure &c. And finally that of the Apocalyps : The o woman must flye into the wildernesse &c. All which places are strangely de●orted by some few iniudicious men , to the defence of the Churches Inuisibility . And to the first , against these Inuisibilists , I say , touching those former words of Elias ; first admitting the Iewish Synagogue to haue bene then inuisible ; yet is this exāple defectiuely alleadged , as applyed to the Church of Christ ; since the predictions , and promises made to Christ his Church , ( whose p Testament is established in better promises ) are farre greater , and more worthy , then those of the Iewish Synagogue . Agayne , the foresaid example doth not extend to the whole Church of God before Christ ; but only to the Iewish Synagogue , being only , but a part , or member thereof . For besides the Iewes , there were diuers others faythfull ; as Melchisadech , Cornelius , the Eunuch to the Queene of Caudace &c. Secondly , I say , this example maketh wholy agaynst the alleadgers of it ; since the words of Elias were spoken not generally of all the Iewish People , but only in regard of the Countrey of Israel ; and accordingly God answered the complaint of Elias with restraint to that only Countrey , the texts saying : I haue left to me in Israel seauen thousands , which haue not bowed vnto Ba●l . Adde hereto , that in those very tymes , the Church did greatly florish in the adioyning Countrey of Iuda , and was to Elias then knowne , and Visible , vnder the raigne of Asa , and Iosaphat . And thus is this obiection answered euen by Melancthon , q and Enoch Clapham . r Lastly , admitting these seauen thousands were vnknowne to Elias ; yet followeth it not , that they were vnknowne to all others of the same tyme ; Much lesse then is this Example of force to prooue , that the Church of God may be Latent , and Inuisible for many hundred yeares together ( as some of our ignorant brethren do teach ) not to one Elias only ; but to the whole World : And thus farre of this so much vrged example of Elias . To the second . Those words of the Prophet : The Oast , & sacrifice shall cease &c. Are to be referred to the ouerthrow of Ierusalem , and the ceasing of the Iewish sacrifices , euen by the exposition of s Chrysostome , t Ierome , u Austin , & others . Neyther can the words be properly extended to the tymes of Antichrist ; since we teach , that Antichrist is already comne ; and yet we see , that sacrifices do still remayne . To the third . By the word departure , mentioned by the Apostle , is vnderstood , eyther Antichrist himselfe by the figure Metonymia ; because he shal be the cause , why many shall depart from Christ , as Chrysostome , and Theodoret vpon this place do expound , as also Austin : x Or rather is vnderstood a departure , and defection from the Roman Empyre , as Ambrose , Sedulius , Primasius , and diuers Protestants y do expound this Text. To the fourth . I answere , that by the Woman flying into Wildernes , S. Iohn meaneth not any locall or corporall flight out of the knowledge , and notice of the world ; but only a spirituall retiring in hart , from the allurements , and pleasures of the World , to pennance , mortification , and contemplation of celestiall matters : And in this very sense Bullenger interpreteth the Churches flight from Babilon . To the former texts I may adde ( though not aboue mentioned ) that passage in S Iohn . z Venit hora & nunc est &c. The hower cometh , and now is , when the true adorers , shall adore the Father in spirit , and truth . To this I answere , that our Lord here teacheth , that the chiefe worship of God , which shal be exhibited in his Church , consisteth in an internall worship of him ; but from hence therefore it followeth not , that the Church is Inuisible , or that all externall worship is prohibited ; for our Lord here speaketh not of the place , where God shal be worshiped ; but of the manner , and rite of worshiping . Chrysostome , Cyrill , and Euthimius vpon this place , do oppose those words : in spirit , to the ceremonies of the Iewes , as they are corporall ; and those other words : in truth , to the sayd Ceremonies , as they are figures of things to come . Now because diuers of the former passages of Scripture are obiected to proue , that the Church of Christ shal be Inuisible ( at the least ) in the time of Antichrist ; I do reply further hereto , saying ; first , That the former place of the Apostle to the Ephesians ( alledged by Ochinus ) touching an incessant , & vndiscontinued , being of Pastours , & Doctours in the Church , to remaine euen to the end of the world ( omitting other texts aboue cited by him ) as also the Protestants confessions of the Churches euer Visibility ( hereafter to be deliuered by Michaeas ) do fully answere , and satisfy the supposed doubts suggested in the former texts , touching the Churches Inuisibility in the time of Antichrist . Secondly I reply , that diuers learned brethren of ours ( punctually , and purposely , with reference to that time ) do teach , that the Church shall remayne then Visible . And to giue some tast hereof , D. Pulke thus writeth : In a the time of Antichrist , the Church was not driuen into any corner of the world ; but was , is , & shal be dispersed in many Nations . And againe he thus writeth : The b true Church ( though obscured , and driuen into wildernes by Antichrist ) yet shall continue dispersed ouer the world . Bullenger sayth , the Church in the time of Antichrist shal be right c famous : But if it shal be then right famous , it must of necessity be then Visible . To be short , Szegedine ( a learned Protestant ) thus writeth : The ministers of Gods word shall preach all the time , in which Antichrist shall tread vnderfoote the holy Citty . Thus farre in solution of all such chiefe passages of Scripture , vsually obiected against the perpetuall Visibility of the Church . But now ( M. Doctour ) I thinke it is your turne , to warrāt the former truth , from the wrytings of the auncient fathers , and from arguments of Credibility , which the force of reason it selfe doth minister . DOCTOVR REYNOLDS I am prepared thereto . And I will not presse your memoryes with a needles ouercharge of their sentences : Some few ( and those pertinent ) shall serue ; though otherwise they are most luxuriant , and plentifull herein . And first thus Origin writeth : Ecclesia e est plaena fulgore , ab oriente vsque ad Occidentem , the Church is full of fulgour , or brightnes , from the East euen to the West . Cyprian discourseth thus : Ecclesia f Dom. &c. The Church of our Lord , being replenished with light , casteth forth it beames throughout the whole earth . Chrysostome g saith : facilius est solem extingui , quam Ecclesiam obscurari ; It is more easy for the Sunne to be extinguished , then the Church to be obscured , or darkened . Finally ( for greater conpendiousnesse ) S. Austin is so full in this point , as that he maketh the Visibility of the Church , a Marke for the ignorant to discerne the true Church of Christ , from all false Conuenticles , thus writing : Propter hoc enim motus &c. h By reason of the tēptations of those , who are weake , and may be seduced by some , from acknowledging the Churches brightnesse ; our Lord euen foreseeing so much , saith : A Citye , that is built vpon a hill cannot be hidd . And further S. Augustin thus enlargeth himselfe : Ecclesia i vera nemiem latet , the true Church is hidd , or concealed from no man. And yet more : k numquid digito &c. Do we not point our fingar to the Church ? it doth she not lye open to all ? And lastly he exaggerateth this point further in these words : l Quid amplius diccturus sum &c. What may I more say , then account them blynd , who cannot see so greate a mountaine who do shult their eyes against a candel , placed in a candelstich ? Thus S. Austin . And thus farre of the Fathers , from whence we may easely coniecture , how muche different ware the iudgements of the auncient , and primatiue Fathers , from their conceipts , who labour by their speeches to turne the faire streame of the Churches Resplendency , into the shallow current of her supposed Obscurity . 1. In this next place , I will descend to arguments drawne from analogy of reason . And first , from the comparison , made betwene the old Testament , and the New Testament . Certaine it is , that the Iewes euer since Ghrists dayes retained , and kept a knowne profession of their Religion , ( though vnder some restraint ) and their Synagogues haue euer since bene extarnally visible ( though disperced ) as in Greece , Spayne , Italy , Germany , France , England &c. And this point Peter m Martyr , and others n do acknowledg , and your selfe ( Michaeas ) can well iustify the same . Now then if the Church of the new Testament should want a continuall Visibility , then should it be inferiour in honour , and dignity to the Iewish Synagogue ; euen then , when the Gospell is prophesied to be most florishing , and the Synagogue to be in it greatest decay , and ruyne : a reasonable to ouerbalance all reasons , brought to the contrary . 2. The foresaid Conclusion of the Churches Visibility is also proued , from the beginning , and progresse of the Church . For first durnig the old Testament the Church was then so Visible , as that the Professours thereof did beare euen in their flesh , the Visible , and markable signe of Circumcision , as a badg of the Church . Againe , in the new Testament , the whole Church of Christ was in it infancy , and beginning in Christs Apostles , and Disciples ; Who were so Visible , as that the Holy Ghost did Visibly descend vpon them , vpon the feast of Penticost . Furthermore , We reade in the Acts. c 2. 3. 4. that on one day three thousands ; on an other , fyue thousands were adioyned to the former , by their confession of fayth , and Baptisme . And so after they ( and only they ) were reputed , as membrs of Christs Church , who did adioyne themselue to the former Christians , by their externall confession of fayth , and by Baptisme . 3. An other argument may be taken from the greate necessity imposed vpon Christians ; who are obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation , to range themselues vnto the true Church of Christ , and to perseuer in the same ; as appareth not only from the testimonies of p Cyprian , q Ierome , and Austin : r but euen from reason it selfe . Since no man can raigne with Christ , who is not a member of Christ . But how can this be performed , if the Church of Christ be Inuisible ? Or how can God be excused from cruelty , by threatning to vs eternal perdition for our not performing such conditions , the which ( supposing the Church not to be Visible ) is not in our power to accomplish ? 4. Furthermore the Inuisibility of the Church impugneth the marks of the Church , giuen by vs Protestants ; which are the true preaching of the Word , and the administration of the Sacraments ; seeing there matters cannot be put in practice , but among a Visible Society of men ; and such a Society , as that one of it is knowne to an other . 5. Againe , the Inuisibillity of the Church mainly crosseth the ende , for which the Church of God was instituted . Which end was to prosecute God with that entier and perfect worship , which man can giue to him ; that is worship him not only with his Soule , but also externally with his body , and works , or deeds ( seeing Man consisteth of soule , and body ) But an Inuisible Church performeth it worship to God , only in hart , and minde : And with this I end , referring the last point to you ( Michaeas ) who is next to enter ( as I may say ) vpon the stage . MICHAEAS . Most willingly I come . For if we peruse the writings ( and especially of such , who haue bene of the chiëfest note , in the Protestant ( Church ) it is a world to see , how riotous , ( as it were ) and abounding they haue bene in their works , for proofe of the Churches Visibility at all times , and in respect of all men ; and this euen in the Conclusion it selfe , without any borowed sequels , though neuer so necessary . And first we find Caluin ( the halfe Arche of the Protestant Church ) thus to say : s Nunc de Visibili Ecclesia &c. Now we determine to dispute of the Visible Church &c. extracuius gremium , nulla est speranda peccatorum remissio , out of whose bosome we cannot expect any remission of sinns . Neither is Melancton lesse full herein , who thus acknowledgeth : t Necesse est fateri esse Visibilem Ecclesiam &c. it is necessary to confesse the Church to be Visible ; Whither tendeth then haec portentosa oratio , this monstrous opinion , which denyeth the Church to be Visible ? Melancthon Further thus saith : u Whensoeuer we thinke of the Church , let vs behould the company of such men , as are gathered together , which is the Visible Church : Neither let vs dreame , that the Elect of God are to be found in any other place , then in this Visible Society &c. neither let vs imagine of any other Inuisible Church . Briefly the said Melancthon vrging diuers texts of Scripture in proofe of the Churches Visibility , thus cōcludeth : Hi & x similes loci &c. These , and such lyke places ( of Scripture ) non de Ideä Platonica , sed de Ecclesia visibili loquuntur ; do not speake of Plato his Ideä , but of the Visible Church ▪ this Melancthon . The Learned Hunnius giueth his sentence in these words : God y in all times hath placed his Church , in a high place , and hath exalted it in the sight of all Prople , and Nations . Iacobus Andreas ( that famous Protestant ) thus ●umpeth with his brethrē herein : We z are not ignorant , that the Church must be a Visible company of teachers , and hearers . The eminet Dan●us●oth ●oth thus second the rest : Who a denyeth the true Church of God ( and that Visible ) to haue bene from the beginning of the world ; he without doubt sheweth himselfe to be ignorant in holy Schripture . M. Hooker ( your Countriman ) thus writeth of this point : God b hath had euer shall haue some Church Visible vpon earth . Peter Martyr ( once your Companion , Ochinus ) confesseth the trueth herein in these words : We do c not appoint an Innisible Church ; but do define the Church to be a Congregation vnto which the faithfull may know , that they may safely adioyne themselues . D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants , thus saying : d The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible ; their profession knowne euen to the prophane , and wiched of the world ; And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible . Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible , but to the Elect only . The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point , saying : e It is true , that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing , that there is , and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church ; and that , not consisting of some few scattered Christians , without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments ; for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto ; how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion . But for great breuity , and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants , D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene , who enthereth into heate , and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility . For thus he writeth : Cur ergo anxiè & curiosè probant , quod est a nobis numquam negatum ? Why do they ( meaning the Catholicks ) so painfully and curiously proue that , which we neuer denyed ? And then after the said Doctour : Non enim clancularij secessus & conuocationes sunt Christianae , the society of Christians are not secret meetings . And then there againe , speaking of the Church militant : Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima , It is a manifest Conclusion , that the Church is to be conspicuous , and Visible . And thus farre ( Gentlemen ) of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks , the euer Visibility of the Church of God ; And this in so full a manner , as that the wicked ( as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh ) shall take full notice , and sight of it ; by force of which cleare testimonies , those few , and ignorant Protestants ( who confesse the Church to be Visible , but not in so full a maner ) are preuented of their poore refuge , saying : The Church is Visible , but not at all tymes ( as if the Church , like the Sea , enioyed a flux , and reflux of it Visibility ) knowne , but knowne only to the Elect , and faythfull : phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe , and mainly crossing , not only their owne more learned Brethren ; but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word , and other passages thereof ; to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers , and finally to al force of reason it selfe . D. REYNOLDS . Wee see ( Michaeas ) you are very conuersant in our owne Writers ; And now I hope this first point is perfected , Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye ; And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine , once aduanced ; Neuerthelesse I trust , no learned , iudicious Man , perusing the former authorities at large , will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church ; being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion , and hauing no subsistence , or being . MICHAEAS . M. Doctour , you say truly . But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you , and these two graue men , to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ ( for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine , necessarily exacteth such a Visibility ( I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points ; the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances , which as my thoughts presage , wil be hereafter insisteth vpon , by you . NEVSERVS . You do well ( Michaeas ) to set downe those premonitions ; for we desire , that if there shal be any defect in the future examples , it may be fully displayed . Therefore proceed in your Method . MICHAEAS . The first then of these any maduersions , may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation , and backwardnesse in some Protestants ( a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein ) when this Catholicks presse them , to giue instances of Protestancy , and of the administration of the word , and Sacrements : For , seing they wil beare men in hand , that their Church hath euer continued Visible ; they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound ( as mantayning the affirmatiue part ) to vndertake the proose thereof . Now answearably to my former Assertion , I finde D Wutton g ( speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary ) thus to write : you wilt say , shew vs , where the fayth , and Religion , you professe , where held . Nay , proue you , that they were held no where &c. And what if it could not beshewed ? yet we know by the articles of our Creede , that there hath bene alwayes a Church , in which we say , this religion , we professe , must of necessity be held &c. This stands vpon you to disproue , which when you do by particular Records , you shall haue particular answere . Then which what can be spoken , first more absurdly , as expecting records of things , which neuer were in being ? He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe , and his fellowes only stand obliged . Secondly , what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages ? The like dispairing Answere D Fulke , * vseth vpon the same point , saying to his Aduersary : Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes , vah quam iniquum postulas ? Thou willest me to produce , and name those , which did lye secret through out the World ; how iniust a thing dost thou here demand ? The second Obseruation . Seing the Church of God is at al times , and seasons ( without the least discontinuance thereof ) to be Visibile , and to enioy a publike administration of the Word , and Sacraments ( as aboue we al haue proued ) That therefore such Instances of Protestancy , which may be giuen by you hereafter ( supposing them to be true ) do but iustify Visibility of your Church , only for so long ( & no longer ) as the said Protestants did liue . And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy , for al ages since Christ ( & if you do fayle herein , but for any one only age ) it necessarily followeth ; that Church of the Protestants ( as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility ) is not the Church of Christ , described in the old Testament , and their prophecyed of , in so many different places The third , and last Obseruation . That one may truly , and iustly be called a Protestant , two things ( among others ) must necessatily concurre : The one , that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy ; Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy ; and in the rest ( being more in number , and of greater importance ) to pertake with the Catholicks : seeing such a Man is rather ( as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion , then of Protestancy ) to be reputed a Catholicke , then a Protestant ; for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater , and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him , ther otherwise ; though to speake the truth , such a Man so beleeuing , is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant . The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant , is , that he doth not hould pertinaciously any mayne Heresies , or Paradoxes wholy impugned , gainsaid , and contradicted , both by Protestant , and Catholicke . For this Man in this respecte , is to be styled rather an open Hereticke , then a Protestant , euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues . Therefore to conclude this last obseruation ; Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes ( or species ) do coople together , that which is ingendred , is of a third Kinde , diuers from them both : So here , that Religion or fayth , which is ( as it were ) propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions , must be a beliefe , different from them al. These things being premised , now M. Doctour or either of you two , may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age ; And I shall reply therto , as my iudgment , and reading wil best inable me . OCHINVS . I do like well of these your animaduertions ; and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect , and faulty instances , from such as be true , and perfect . MICHAEAS . Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing , I must demand of you al ( as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers ) whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren , in al the following passages betweene vs ? D. REYNOLDS . I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmēts . And if you can conuince either our future examples , or our cause in generall , from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory . For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant ; that h the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary , is of greatest authority . And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith : surely i among other testimonyes , that is of greatest weight , which is giuen by the Enemyes . And D. Bancrofs ( to omit al other Protestants in this point ) confirmeth the same , thus writing : Let k vs take hould of that , which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon , for a truth , that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto . Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers ; for Ireneus saith : It is an vnanswerable l proofe , which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues . And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof : It is the m greatest cu●ning and wisdome of speech , to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words : So full you see ( Michaeas ) I am in this point . But now let vs come to the maine matter . To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene . And that I may the better marshal , and incampe ( as it were ) my examples , thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment , I will begin with the later times of the Church , and so ascend vpwards And first , for these last threescore yeares , the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England ) to forbeare all other Countreyes ) it Visibility , in it full Orbe ; all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse . Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time , this worthy Man Ochinus here present ( backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr ) did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation , as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne ( like roses after a long cold , or tempest , blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne ) with refe●erence of which Professours , Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe , the words of Aenias : n Quorum pars magna fui . MICHAEAS . Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England , since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne , I easily grant they haue been most Visible ( as I gather out of your English Chronicles ) And thus I freely confesse , that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares : But where you say , that Protestancy ( I meane , as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught , at this day for Protestancy , and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect , & complete Protestant ) was fully taught , and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes , I absolutely deny . OCHINVS . Will you deny ( Michaeas ) so manifest a verity , whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times ; but ( If I may speake in modesty ) a greate Cause thereof ? What will you not deny , if you deny , such illustrious Trueths ? and what hope can we haue of your bettering , by this our disputation ? MICHAEAS . Good Ochinus , beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words ( the refuse of speech ) but if you can , with force of argument . I peremptorily deny the former point ; and for iustifying this my deniall , I wil recurre to the Communion Booke , set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation , and allowance ( as D. Doue , a Protestant affirmeth ) of Peter Martyr , your Cooperatour . Which Booke we must presume in al reason , was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme , established in those tymes ; and the rather considering , that the said Communion Booke ( for it greater authority ) was warranted in the Kings time , by Act of Parliament . Now this Communion Booke , or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes , being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points , with our Roman Religion . For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes ; c and prescribeth , that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse . It commandeth d consecration of the Water of Baptisme , with the signe of the Crosse . It alloweth of Chrisme ; e as also of the Childs annoynting f and Exorcisme . In that booke mention is made of prayer h for the dead ; and intercession , and i offering vp of our Prayers by Angells . It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons , k in time of necessity ; and the grace l of that Sacrament ; as also Confirmation m of children , and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth ( according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day ) the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar ; n and sometimes to the People . o It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome ) p Alleluya should be said , from Easter to Trinity sunday . It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the q Bryde , & brydegroome , with the signe of the Crosse . It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent , with these particular words : By r the authority committed vnto me . I absolute thee of all thy sinns . It mentioneth a speciall Confession s of the sicke Penitent ; And lastly it commandeth the t annoynting of the sicke Person , which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction . So little reason [ Ocbinus ] you see , you haue to affirme , that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same , which was mantained , and publikely established by King Edward . OCHINVS . Indeede I grant , the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament , but I instructed those , with whom I conuersed , to reiect those superstitions their confirmed . D. REYNOLDS . Well let that passe . It auayleth not much , whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes , or no ; since it is certaine , it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes , by the late afore raysing vp of Luther ; who was miraculously sent by the Holy Ghost , to illuminate the world with the Trueth of the Ghospell , and to discipate the clowds of the former Romish Errours . And I am assured , [ Michaeas ] you wil acknowledg Luther for a perfect Protestant in all points ; and consequently that the Protestant Church was in Luther , & his followers , most conspicuous , and Visible . MICHAEAS . I know , most of our new Ghospellers trauayle with you [ M. D. ] on this child ; to wit , that Luther did erect a perfect forme of Protestancy . By the which we may learne , that Affection , is not only blind but also deafe ; so loath you Protestants are either to see or heare any thing against Luther herein . Neuerthelesse I here auerre , it is impossible to iustify Luther for a true Protestant . I know also , that himselfe thus vaunteth ¶ Christum a nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari ; where we may see , it is an accustomed blemish of most Innouatours , to become their owne Parasites . NEVSERVS . Strange Luther not a Protestant ? doth the Sunne shine ? Is the fier hot ? Doth the Sea ebb , and flow ? As certaine , as any of these so certaine , Luther was a perfect , and true Protestant . He was the Sunne , that did dispel in those dayes the mists of Antichristian darkenesse . From his preaching , and writings , a ●ier of Christian zeale was inkindled in thousands of mens soules , for the embrasing of the Ghospell of Christ ; And neuer did the torrent , and inundation of superstition , and Idolatry suffer a greater reflux a greater reflux and Ebb , then in his life time . MICHAEAS . Rhetorically amplifyed , Neuserus . But it is the weight of Reason , not a froath of empty words , which sway the iudicious . I grant that Luther did derogatize more articles of Innouation , and Nouelisme , now taught by Protestants , then any one Man afore him , did since the first plantation of Christianity : yet that Luther was a perfect , and articulate Protestant , and such , as the present Protestant Church ( with relation to the doctrine now taught by that Church ) may iustly , & truely acknowledg for a member thereof , I eternally denye , and do iustify my deniall out of his owne bookes ; so shall ¶ Luther prooue , that Luther was no Protestant . Now this I euict , ( according to my former premonitions , and cautions ) first , because Luther did euer hould ( euen after his reuolt from the Church of Rome ) diuers Catholicke opinions , or doctrines , then , and still now taught by the said Church . Secondly , in that Luther after his departure from the Church of Rome , did mantayne diuers grosse errours , or rather Heresies , or rather blasphemies ; and for such at this day condemned , both by Catholicks , and Protestants : So euident it will appeare , that Luther was too weake a bulke , to giue nurrishment to all those different plants , which now do stile themselues Protestants . And first touching seuerall Catholicke points , euer beleiued , & defended by Luther , euen to his last day , these following may serue , as Instances . 1. First he euer maintayned the Reall Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist ( as the world knoweth ) . And his followers for their peculiar defence of this doctrine , are styled Lutherans by Swinglins , Caluin , & their party ; impugning the foresaid doctrine . 2. Luther also defended Prayer to Saints , of which point he thus wryteth : x De intercessione diuorum , cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio , & iudico sanctos a nobis honorandos esse atque inuocandos . 3. He also taught the doctrine of Euangelicall Counsells ; to wit , that a man might do more , then he is commanded , as appeareth out of his Booke : de y assertionibus . 4. The Doctrine of Purgatory , he taught ; of which see tom . 〈◊〉 . z Wittenberg . in resolut . de Indulgentijs . And answerably to this ground he is confessed by Vrbanus Regius a [ a Protestant ] to defend prayer for the Dead . 5. Luther further taught , and approued the vse of Images , as Beza b witnesseth . 6. The indifferency of communion vnder one , or both kindes ( contrary to the doctrine of the Protestants , who place a necessity in both ) is allowed by Luther , in these words : quamuis c pulcrum sit &c. Although it were very seemely , to vse both the species , or formes in the blessed Eucharist ; & though Christ commanded nothing herein , as necessary ; yet it were better to follow peace &c. then to contende about the formes . 7. Touching the making of the signe of the Crosse , vpon our foreheads ; Iohannes Creuelius ( a Lutheran ) thus witnesseth : Cum imus cubitum , ●iue surgimus electo , cruce nos iuxta Lutheri d & aliorum piorum●● institutionem , signamus : When we go to bedd , or rise from thence , we do signe our selues with the signe of the Crosse , according to the aduice of Luther and other pious men . And Iohannes Maulius e ( Luthers scholler ) thus writeth of Luther : respondet Lutherus , signo crucis facto , Deus me tuetitur : Luther answereth , at the making of the signe of the Crosse , God defend me . 8. Finally , to omit diuers other points , ( wherein Luther neuer dissented from the Church of Rome ) Luther euer mantained , that the gouerment of the Church is Monarchical & neither Aristocratical , nor Popular : of which point Luther thus writeth : Cum f Deus voluerit &c. Seing God would haue one Catholicke Church , throughout the whole World : it was needful , that one people , imo vnum aliquem patrem istius vnius populi elegi , yea some one father of this one people should be choosen , ad quem , & suos posteros spectant totus orbis , to whose care , and his successours the whole World should belong . And thus farre [ Gentlemen ] touching some tast , to shew , that Luther , euen after his forsaking of the Catholicke , and Roman Church , did neuerthelesse still retaine , and belieue , diuers Catholicke doctrines : and consequently was no no entire , and perfect Protestant . D. REYNOLDS . I confesse indeede , that Luther ( as appeareth by his owne writings ) did not reueale to the new World ( as I may tearme it ) all the Euangelical Trueth : the fuller discouery of some parts thereof , being reserued for our later dayes . And though his owne Religion was not ( through want of beliefe of some Trueths ) perfectly good ; yet I am assured , It is not by his pesitiuely mantayning of any one errour ( then in what he was nuzled by the Church of Rome ) in any sort euill . MICHAEAS . This your reply is impertinent : for here the Question is only , whether Luther in respest of his faith , was such an absolute Protestant , as at this day our Gospellers repute for a good , & sound Protestant . Yet that you may see your owne errour otherwise , in ouer highly preiudging of Luthers Religion . I wil here particularize out of his owne writings , and other Protestants relations , certaine Heresies and blasphemies ; neuer by him after recaled , and incompatible with saluation , ( for modicum * firmentum totam massam corrumpit ) which he did egurgitate out of his impure stomak . From whence we may inferre , that with lesse reason he may be vrged for a Protestant . 1. And First , I wil here alleadg his impious doctrine ( wherin he labored to cut , and wound Christian Religion , euen in it maister-veine ) touching the most Blessed Trinity , concerning which he thus speaketh : The g Diuinity is threefould , as the three Persons be &c. And from hence the reason may well be , why Luther h expungeth out of the Litany , this verse : Holy Trinity , one very God , haue mercy vpon vs. And hereupon he is not afraid to say , that the word . Trinity , i is but an humane inuention , and soundeth coldly . And finally , he concludeth , that his soule hateth the word : Homousion , or Consubstantiale ; For thus he writeth : Anima k me a odit Homousion , & Optimè exigerunt Ariani , ne vocem illam prophanam & nouam regulis fidei statu● liceret . My very soule ha●eth the word : Homousion , or Consubstantiale ; And the Arians , not without reason , required , that it should not be lawfull to put this prophane , and new Word ( meaning , Homousios or consubstantialis ) among the rules of fayth . Luthers blasphemy against the B. Trinity was such , and so odious , that euen l Zwinglius did purposely write against Luther touching this very point . 2. Touching the euent of things , Luther houldeth ( contrary to all Christian faith ) that all things come to passe , through a certaine Stoical , and Fatal necessity ; for he defending this Heresy thus writeth : Nullius m est in manu &c. It is in no mans power , to thinke good , or euil : but al things ( as Wicleffs article , condemned at Constance , did rightly teach ) proceed from absolute Necessity . And againe : n fateor articulum &c. I do confesse Wicleffs article of all things , comming to passe by Necessi 〈◊〉 ▪ to haue 〈◊〉 falsly condemned , in the conuenticle of Constance . 3. To the dishonour of Christ his Passion ( who was cloathed with Essentiall Maiesty and as intimating the insufficiency of it , for the redemption of mankinde ; he teacheth , that Christ not only suffered in body , but also his Diuinity suffered : for thus he writeth Cùm o credo , quod sola humana Natura pro me passa est , Christus vilis , noc magni praetij saluator est &c. If I beleiue , that only the Humane Nature of Christ suffered for me ; then is Christ a Sauiour , but of a base , and small worth ; and himselfe nedeth a Sauiour . And Luther speaking of this point in an other place , thus reprehendeth the Zwinglians : The p Zwinglians did contend against me most pertinaciously , that the Diuinity of Christ could not suffer : A doctrine , so blasphemous , as that it was not refuted only by the Zwinglians in Luthers dayes ( as himselfe confesseth ) but also euen by Beza q such chaynes you see of blasphemies ( one stil following an other ) are wouen in Luthers faith , and Religion . 4. Touching the Administration of the Word , and Sacraments ; Luther teacheth , that al men ( and women also ) haue authority , & power to administer them : These be his owne words : The first r office of a Priest is to preach the Word &c. But this is common to al : Next , to baptize ; and this also al may do , euen women &c. The third office is to consecrate bread , and wine : But this also is common to al , no lesse , then Priests ; And this I auouch by the authoritie of Christ himselfe , saying : do this in remembrance of me . This Christ speake to al then present , and to come afterwards . If then that , which is greater , then al , be giuen indifferently to al Men , and Women ( I meane , the word , and Baptisme ) then that , which is lesse ( I meane to consecrate the supper ) is also giuen to them . Thus Luther . Yea Luther proceeded so farre herein , as that , as D. Couell witnesseth , he was not afraid to affirme , that the Sacraments s were effectual though , administred by Satan himselfe . With D. Couell agreeth the Protestant Hospintan , thus writing : Lutherus t ●o vsque progreditur &c. Luther proceedeth so farre herein , that he maintained the Sacrament to be a true Sacrament , ●●iamsi a Diabolo conficeretur , though it were to be consecrated by the Deuil . 5. For absolute deniall of tempor all Magistrats ( an Heresy indifferently condemned , both by Catholicks , and Protestants ) we finde Luther thus to write : Among u Christians no man can , or ought to be a Magistrate ; But euery one is to other equally subiect &c. And agayne : As Christ x cannot suffer himselfe to be tyed , & bound by lawes &c. So also ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them . 6. Touching Luthers deniall of certayne parcels of Scripture : And first the Epistle of S. Iames is called by Luther , Contentious , y swelling , strawy , and vnworthy an Apostolicall spirit . The booke of the Apocalyps is also reiected by Luther , by the acknowledgment of Bullenger , thus writing hereof : Doctour Martin Luther , hah ( as it were ) sticked this booke , with a sharpe preface , set before his first Edition in Duch ; for which his iudgment , good , and learned Men were offended with him . Hereunto I will adde Luthers contempt of Moyses , and some of the Apostles : Against Moyses he thus writeth : a Habuit Moyses labia in faecunda , irata &c. And againe : Moyses habuit labia diffusa felle & ira . Touching the Apostles , he thus controuleth S. Peter ; S. Peter b did liue , and teach , extra verbum Dei ; besides the word of God. Thus we may see , how no wynde was able to weigh downe the eares of Luthers pryde . 7. Luther also taught an Heresy , whereby the Propagation of Christian Religion is much endangered ; to wit , That it was not lawfall to wage warre against the Turke : an errour ; which enen the greatest Idolatours of Luther haue mainly condemned . Luthers words are these : c Praeliari contra Turcas , est repugnare Deo visitanti iniquitates nostras per illos . To wage warre against the Turke , is to resist God visiting our sinn●s by thē : A point so confessed , that Erasmus , thus writeth of the consequence , and effects of Luthers doctrine : Many d of the Saxons following herein , that firct doctrine of Luther , denyed to Caesar , and King Ferdinand ayde against the Turke &c. And said ; they had rather fight for a Turke not Baptized , then for a Turke Baptized ; meaninge , the Emperour . Thus Erasmus . 8. Touching Fayth , and good workes , Luther taught an Heresy , disallowed by all learned Protestants . For Luther teacheth , as followeth : It is e impiety to affirme , that fayth without Charity , iustifyeth not . Nay Luther proceedeth further , thus writing : Fides nisi sit sine &c. Except f fayth be without the least good works , it doth not iustify ; nay it is not fayth . And thereupon , the more to debase good works , he thus saith : g Works take their goodnes of the Worker ; Aud h no worke is disallowed of God , vnlesse the authour thereof be disallowed before . Here now I end touching Luther , Where you may perceaue [ Neuserus ] that this your Sunne ( of which you afore vaunted ) prooues to be but a fading Comet ; the fyery zeale ( you spoake of ) but a turbulent combustion se● on flame by Luther in subiects minds , against all Christian Magistracy ; and the reflux , which Luther ( as you pretend ) caused in the Church of Rome , was instantly attended on , with a flux and ouerflowing of many dreadfull , and blasphemous doctrines , then broached , and defended by him . But here I referre two points to the mature Consideration of you [ M. Doctour ] and these two learned men , here present . First , whether Luther can truely be challenged at this day for a perfect Protestant ; ( and consequently , whether the Visibility of the Protestant Church , can be truely iustifyed in him ) considering , both the seuerall Catholicke Doctrines , as also the many explorat Heresyes , and blasphemyes , he maintayned euen after his reuolt from the Papacy . The second ( though but incidentall at this present ) whether it sorteth to the sweete proceeding of God , to vse as his Instrument , for the reedifying of his Church ( admitting it afore ruined ) a man , who practized his penne ( and this after his supposed calling ) to the wronging of Christian Faith , and Charity ; to the fortifying of the state , and Empyre of Christs greatest Enemy ; to the expunging of Gods sacred Writ , and conuitiating of his greatest Seruants : to the disauthorizing of all Christian Princes , and Ciuill Magistrates : to the dishonoring , and debasing of the Sacraments : to the disualewing of the infinit worth , and price of Christ his Passion : to the vphoulding , and maintayning of a stoicall , and fatall Necessity in all things : And lastly to the absolute deniall of the most Blessed , and holy Trinity . Now ( Gentlemen all ) if you want a Protestāt , to be the square , and rule of Protestancy , I am content ( in this your penury ) that you take Luther for a Protestant . OCHINVS . I am amazed to here of these Points : and I would not beleiue them : but that Luthers owne wrytings are yet extant , & ready to charge him with them . NEVSERVS . I condemne my selfe [ Michaeas ] of my former rash , and vnexamined assent , giuen in behalfe of Luther : and I blame my owne hasty Credulity But by this I may learne , that the attendant of Wisdome , is slowe beliefe . But , M. Doctour , we would wish you , to ascend to higher times . D. REYNOLDS . I will. And I will ascend sofely and by small degrees . Only afore in part of excuse ( though not in defence ) of Luthers errours . I must put you in minde [ Michaeas ] that the purest gold Oare is mixt with some dresse : the fayrest rose beset with sharpe pricks , and diuers auncient and reuerend Fathers had their ouersights . But to proceede higher : what say you [ Michaeas ] of the twenty yeares first before Luther ? Do you not thinke , that there were then many markably , and visibly knowne , who professed the present Protestant faith , and Religion ? MICHAEAS . M. Doctour . If you can euict to much , then you are to name those many Professours : if not many , some few : at least some one or other . If you can , I now vrge you to it . But it seemeth by your silence , being thus prouoked , you cannot name any one Protestant then liuing : so rare in those dayes ( though so late ) were the byrds of such an Aëry . D. REYNOLDS . Do you not know , that Bucer , Melancthon , and Pelican , were professed Protestants , euen before Luthers breaking with the Church of Rome ? MICHAEAS . Indeede D. Morton i in extreme penury , and for maine releife of his Cause , is not abashed to nam the said three men for Protestants , before Luthers reuolt from the Pope : Whereas it is certaine , that all these were originally Catholicks : & only vpon Luthers fale , did after adioyn themselues to him . I here further tell you , that it is repugnant to Common sense , that any Protestants , or any administration of the word , and Sacraments , should be within the twenty yeares , next afore Luthers Apostasy ( for I can tearme it no better ) and yet no memory to be extant thereof , in any one Country or other , throughout all Christendome ; especially seeing all Occurrents thereabouts ( if there were any ) should haue bene performed in the memory of Man , and consequently lesse subiect to forgetfulnesse . Againe , you pretend , you can exemplify in Protestants for all former auncient times ; and yet you faile euen in this last age : Belike you will perswade vs , that our knowledg of these matters , is like to some bad eyes , which see things a farre of , better , then neerer at hand . Furthermore , I here aske the reason , that if any such examples of protestancy had bene immediatly before Luthers reuolt , why at least did not Luther , Zwinglius and the rest , that adioyned themselues to him , make mention of some such Protestants ? D. REYNOLDS . The Protestant Church doubtlesly was in those dayes , but it was in solitude : And herein I ioyne in iudgment with D. Whitakers , thus censuring of this point : Ante k Lutheri tempora , latebat Ecclesia in solitudine , Before the times of Luther , the Church lay hid in the desert . MICHAEAS . I grant , the Doctour answereth so ; but why doth not he ( being much prouoked by his Aduersary thereto ) alleadg as much as one Man , who was a Protestant before Luthers chang ? Againe I demande , why did those supposed Protestants immediatly before Luthers dayes , lye so hid and vnknowne , at Luthers resing ? If you say for feare of Persecution ( for no other pretext you can alledge ) I reply , that feare of Persecution could not be pretended to be a let after Luthers open reuolt ; but that the Protestants ( if any such were ) might securely then haue stept out , and publikely haue ioyned themselfs with Luther ; Considering that then diuers magistrats and common-wealths had openly vndertaken the patronage of Luthers doctrine and Religion ; And who obserueth not , that the floud of any doctrine in faith is more or lesse , as it is gouerned with the ful or wayne of secular Authority ? But to vrge a more irrefragable proofe , for this matter . This point ( to wit , that not any one Protestant was to be found , through the whole World , immediatly before the dayes of Luther ) is so cleare and vndeniable , as that we find the same granted , by a whole volley of Confessions , proceeding from the Protestants owne penns . For thus ( for example ) D. Iewel acknowledgeth : The l truth was vnknowne at that tyme , and vnheard of , when Martin Luther and Hulderick Zwinglius , first came vnto the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel . And vpon this ground it is , that Bucer m stileth Luther : The first Apostle to vs , of the reformed doctrine . Yea Conradus Slussenberg ( the Lutheran ) thus vehemently contesteth this point , saying : It is n impudency to affirme , that many learned Men in Germany before Luther , did hould the doctrine of the Gospel : With whom in like manner conspireth Benedictus o Morgenternensis , thus writing : It is ridiculous to say , that any before the tyme of Luther , had the purity of the Gospel . Thus these Protestants : from whose authorityes being thus fully recited , I gather [ M. D. ] this Resultancy ; That Luthers reuolt was so farre , from prouing the contemning of the Visibility of the Protestant Church , or the administration of the word and Sacraments ; as that it proueth a manifest interruption , or rather a nullity thereof . It being so fully confessed , that at the first appearance of this Mis●reant of Saxony , ( I meane of Luther , who first poizned the Duchy of Saxony with his doctrine ) there was not any one Protestant ( much lesse , a Protestant Church , preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments ) vpon the face of the earth , to be seene or heard of : But hereat I meruayle not , since Philosophy reacheth vs ( to speake by all ●sion ) that where the Obiect is wanting , there the sense suspendeth it operation . DOCTOVR REYNOLDS . Admitting all that you say , to be true , touching the first twenty yeares before Luther ; yet it is most eu●cent , that Iohn Hus ( who liued anno . 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares ) was a good and true Protestant ; for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox , p and D. q Downeham . MICHAEAS . Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare . 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest . The cause of his death , was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds , and the seditious doctrine touching Princes , Bishops , and Priests , being in mortall sinne . But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance ; The Articles , wherein his followers ( the Bohemians ) dissented from the Church of Rome , were these following , which M. Fox thus relateth : The Bohemians r being demanded in what poynts , they did differ from the Church of Rome ; the only Propositions , which they propounded , were these foure Articles first , Communion vnder both kinds ; The second , that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy ; The third , that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men , and in al places ; The fourth , that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered , for auoyding of greater euill . Thus M. Fox of the Hussite , who ( we see ) as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points , cannot possibly be alledged , for , visible members of the Protestant Church . D. REYNOLDS . But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe , was not he a Protestant , and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth ? MICHAEAS . M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs. And first M. Fox thus saith of him . Quid s vnquam docuit , aut in concilio defendit Hussius &c. What did Hus defend at any tyme , or taught in the councel , wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists ? What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation , which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists ? Who did celebrate Masses more religiously , then he ? Or who , more chastly , did keep the vowes of Priestly single life ? Add hereto , that touching free●●l , fayth , prede●●nation , the cause of iustification , merit of Works , what other thing taught he , then was taught at Rome ? What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem ? therefore what can we say , ( for which he deserued , death ) touching the which , he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome , or with it to be freed and absolued ? Thus far M. Fox , with whom agreeth . Luther , thus writing of Hus : The t papists burned Hus , when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy ; for he taught the same , which the papists do ; only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life ; agaynst the Pope he did nothing . Thus Luther . Besides all the Catholicke doctrines , mantained by Hus , he taught ( as aboue is touched ) the Heresy of Wiclef , to wit , that there are no Princes , Priests , or Bishopps , whyle they are in mortall sinne , as M. Fox u recordeth ; with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander , thus wryting : Nullus est Dominus ciuilis , nullus est Praelatus , nullus est Episcopus , dum est in mortali peccato : Haec propositio approhart non potest ; sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani : There is no Ciuill Prince , no Prelate , or Bishop , whiles he is in mortall sinne : This proposition cannot be approued ; but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man. Now I cannot , but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox , who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus , but especially granting ( as shewed out of his owne words ) that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion , was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus , for a most holy Martyr ( as aboue is expressed ) meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church . So gladly you Protestants ( for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church ) do make clayme , to any Catholicke , or hereticke whosoeuer ; who in one only point of Religion , ( though dissenting in all others ) may seeme to compart and interleague with you . Thus far of Hus , whom to legitimate , for a Protestant , you see , it is impossible . OCHINVS . I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas . And this Instance had far better bene forborne , then obtruded ; And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church , to insist in such weake and insufficient examples . But [ M. Doctour ] Let vs entreate you , to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse . D. REYNOLDS . I will satisfy your desire . The next then , in whom I will instance , shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef : Whom all the world ( I hope ) will euen dispose , that he was a perfect Protestant ; and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments ; the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility . This my opinion touching Wicklef , being a Protestant , is not myne alone ; but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox , y and the learned z Crispinus . MICHAEAS . Indeede [ M D. ] M. Fox & Crispinus ( I grant ) do so teach ; but how truly , Obserue , what followeth ; and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment . And yet before I come to the tuche of this point , I must put you in mind , what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited , that at Wickleffs reuolt ( supposing him to be a Protestant ) the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible ; for thus M. Fox a writeth : In the tyme of horrible darknes , when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine , left or remayning ; Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp , through whom the Lord would first awaken & raize vp againe the World. Thus he . This Wicklef being an Englishman ( as you know , M. D. ) was a Catholicke , Priest , and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs ; and as Stow b relateth , He first inueighed against the Church of Rome , because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury , from a certaine benefice . He liued , anno . 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant , I proue , in that ( besides he was a Catholicke Priest , and no Church of the Protestants , then knowne to him ) he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions ; and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes , Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him , I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings ; First he beleiued seauen Sacraments , thus writing of them : Quaedam c sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus &c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself , as Baptisme , the Eucharist , the sacrament of Orders , and of Penance ; certaine also by his Apostles , as the sacraments of Confirmation , and of Extreme Vnction . He also beleiued the rites and Ceremonyes of the Masse , as appeareth in his booke de Apostasiac . 18. Touching his praying to our Blessed Lady , he thus in feruour writeth : d Hic videtur miht , quod impossibile est nospraemiari sine Mariae suffragio : It seemeth impossible to me , for any man to be rewarded , without the suffrage ( or prayers ) of Mary , He acknowledged the worship of Relicks & Images , of which he thus saith : e Ador aneus imagines , vnde & signa &c. conceditur it aque , quòd reliquae Imagines &c. sunt cum prudentia ador andae : We worship Images , as signes &c. Therfore it is granted , that relickes , Images &c. are to be worshipped with prudence . Touching Merit of Works , and works of Supererogation ; Wicklefe was so forward in defence thereof ; that Stow thus writeth of him : f Wicklefe and his disciples went in course russet garments , downe to the heele● , seemed to contemne all temporall goods , for the loue of eternall riches ; adiayned himselfe to the begging fryars ; approouing their pouerty , and extolling their perfection . He thus teaching with the Catholicks , that a Religious , and voluntary pouerty , is the greatest abundance . Besides these his seuerall Catholicks doctrines , He defended diuers grosse Herefyes . He first g taught , that all things came to passe by an absolute and stoicall Necessity : He condemned lawfull Oathes , sauoring ( as Osiander saith ) h of Anabaptisms . Touching Ecclesiasticall persons , thus writeth i Melancthon of Wicklefe : Wicklefus contendit presbiteris non licere , vt possideant quicquam proprium ; Wicklefe mantayneth , that it is not lawfull for Priests , to possesse any thing in propriety . He further taught euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox k ( the Canonizer of the Pseudomartyrs of his Religion ) that if a Bishop or a Priest be in deadly sinne , he doth not order , consecrato , or baptize ; Which point is also verifyed of Wicklefe , by l Osiander . Furthermore , Wicklefe did not only ascribe ( with Catholicks ) merit to works , done in state of grace ; but he was so passionatly resolute herein , as that ( as m Waldensis witnesseth ) he taught merit of works , done by force of nature , with the Pelagians . Finally , Wicklefe taught , that there is no Ciuill magistrate , while he is in mortall sinne ; and this so grosly , that Melancthon thus censureth him : De Domino ciuili , sophisticè planè , & seditiose vixatur ; Wicklefe disputeth of the ciuill magistrate sophistically and seditiously : And according to this his doctrine in speculation , his followers in great p numbers did rise against the King ; And for such their treason , diuers of them were apprehended , and executed . But to contract this point , touching the Heresyes of Wicklefe ; This matter is so euident and confessed by diuers learned Protestants , as that Pantaleon ( a Protestant ) placeth Wicklefe in the Catalogue of Hereticks , thus writing ; Iohannes q Wicklefus cum Lolhardis , in Anglia suam Haeresim praedicat ; Iohn Wicklefe di●●lgeth with the Lolhards , his Heresy in England . And Melancthon thus writeth in generall of him : r I haue found in Wicklefe many errours , wherby a Man may iudge of his spirit . Finally M. Fox s ( though at other times , gracing him with the title of a Protestant ) confesseth , That VVicklefe vsed often for feare of persecution and danger , to dissemble his Religion ; Which no man ( in the iudgment both of Catholicke and Protestant ) professing any conscience , can lawfully do . Thus much touching Wicklefe . OCHINVS . M. Doctour . I must confesse ( euen betweene God and my conscience ) that hitherto the Vessell , from whence you haue drawne all your former wine ( I meane examples of Protestancy ) is not good and pure : But I hope , we shall haue reason to say ( in regard of your other more conuincing Instances , hereafter to follow ) with the cheife steward of the feast in the Gospell : t Thou hast kept the good wine , vntill now . But howsoeuer it is , Truth is not so feeble , as to be forced to leaue ( for it owne supporting ) vpon the cruches of any one mans ability . NEVSERVS . Truly hitherto , the Examples of protestancy are insufficient ( for how can they be reputed Protestants , who not only maintayne the most articles of the Romish Religion ; but also do pertinaciously iustify diuers confessed Heresyes ? ) Neuerthelesse , I doubt not but Ochinus and my selfe shal be able to proue , that the Protestant Church was enriched at all tymes , with many of the faythfull ; though not alwayes it was so gloriously subiect to the eyes of others . But [ M. D. ] what do you say to the tymes precedent to the former ? For we are most willing , that Michaeas should haue good satisfaction giuen him herein . D. REYNOLDS . I say , that in those tymes florished not two or three , but many hundred Protestants . For then liued VValdo , from whom , as from a most worthy stemme ( his branches ) the VValdenses are descended . All which ( both the father and the Sonns ( euen in the iudgment of M. Fox ) u were perfect Protestants . In those tymes also were the Albigenses , confessed for good Protestants . Also the Henricians or Apostolici , Peter Bruts . learned Almericus , and diuers others liued about those dayes : Indeede there were so many Protestants in those tymes , as I am partly troubled , where to beginne to reckon them ; but may here say with the Poet : Inopem me copia fecit . MICHAEAS . Thus [ M. D. ] are but ostentations ; And I see , that saying verifyed in you : Many through loue , do hurt themselfs . For you through your ouer much affecting , to preserue the honour of your Church , do indeed ) by prostituting diuers Pseudoprotestants ) indignify your Church : For all these , whom you now haue alledged , are merely Excentrous ( as I may tearme them ) & irregular Sectaries ; their doctrines indifferētly mouing about the Poles of Catholicke Religion , Protestancy , & Sensuality . And first touching Waldo . It is certaine , that he was a Lay-man of Lyons in France ; vnlearned , but rich , and gaue money for the translating of the Scripture into his owne vulgar tōgue . Of him the Waldenses are deriued about the yeare 1218. Now that neither Waldo , nor the VValdenses ( his followers ) were Protestants , ( though they be much vrged for such , by many Protestants ) is seuerall wayes prooued . First , in that they did still hould diuers Catholicke points , as the Reall presence in the Blessed Sacrament , of whom concerning the same point Caluin thus writeth : x Formula Confessionis &c. The forme of the Confession of the Waldenses doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation , who do not confesse , that the breade is become truly the body of Christ . They also maintayned seauen Sacraments , the doctrine of Vowes , of single life , and of Purgatory ; with all which doctrines Benedictus y Morgenstrensis ( a Lutheran ) chargeth the Waldenses , and reprehendeth them for the same . Lastly , they were so full in defending the doctrine of merit of works ; as that , as D. Humfrey z writeth of VValdo ; He did forsake all things , that being poore , he might follow Christ , & the Euangelicall Perfections . And in the end , it did so faule out , that his schollers and disciples were an Order of begging Fryars , and commonly called : the Poore Men of Lyons . And did professe ( as D. Humfrey a affirmeth ) a kind of Monasticall life ; And finally labored to Pope Innocentius ( the third ) to haue their Order confirmed ; but could not preuayle , as Vspergensis witnesseth in his Chronicle . Secondly , The Heresyes mantayned by VValdo and his followers are such , as that you [ M. D. ] in regard of their defence of them , cannot challenge them for Protestants . For first , they taught , that maryed Persons mortally sinned , in hauing the Act of Matrimony , without hope of Procreation , as testifyeth Illyricus b the Protestant . They also did hould all embracements ( marke this gotishe doctrine ) and things donne aboue c the girdle as touching , kissing , words , compression of the papps &c. to be done in charity : They further taught , that neither Priests d nor ciuill Magistrats being guilty of mortall sinne , did enioy their dignity , or were to be obeyed : That e Laymen and VVomen might consecrate and preach : That Clergy f Men ought to haue no possessions : That men g ought not to sweare in any case : They h went to the Catholicke Churches dissemblingly , & confessed & communicated dissemblingly : Finally ( to omit some others ) they condemned all Princes i and Iudges . And thus far ( M. D. and you two learned Men ) to proue , that VValdo and his followers were no Protestants , ( though it is not denyed , but that some one poynt or other of protestancy , they might mantaine ) and consequently , that the example of them is defectiue , to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in their dayes . NEVSERVS . But what say you [ Michaeas ] of the Albigenses , and the rest aboue mentioned by M. Doctour ? Were not all they Protestants ? MICHAEAS . I grant , they are marshalled among Protestants by D. 1 Fulke and D. 2 Abbots . But here [ M. D. ] you are either deceaued , or ( which I thinke not ) intend to deceaue . For here the Albigenses are brought for shew only of greater variety of dishes , the better to furnish the table of Protestancy : Whereas indeede they were of the same Sect with the Waldenses , or rather the same Men ; according to the iudgments of D. Abbots and D. Fulke . For D. Abbots thus writeth : k These Leonists , or poore Men of Lyons , and waldenses , and Albigenses were the same Men ; but diuersly , and vpon diuers occasions tearmed by the Romish Sinagogue : And D. Fulke sayth the same in these words : l They are called the VValdenses by the vulgar Papists ; as also by others , they are named the poore Men of Lyons , Leonists , Albigenses , or by what other name , it pleased the Sycophants of Antichrist . Now these Albigenses ( be who they will , eyther the same with the Waldenses , or not ) as they mantayned some points of Protestancy ; so with all euen by the testimony of Osiander m the Protestant , they taught diuers execrable Heresyes . The words of Osiander are these : Albigensibus dogmata haec attribuuntur ; Duo esse principia ; Deum videlicet bonum , & Deum malum , hoc est Diabolum &c. These opinions are ascribed to the Albigenses : That there are two Principles ; to wit a good God , and a bad God , which is the Deuill ; and who created all bodyes , as the good God did all soules &c. They do reiect Baptisme , and they say , to go to Churches , and to pray in them , is not profitable : &c. They condemne Mariage , & do allow ( as holy ) promiscuous concubitus , al promiscuous lying togeather , how wicked soeuer &c. Thy deny the resurrectiō of the body , & that Christ was true Man. Thus far Osander , who also sayth : The opinions of the Albigenses are absurd , wicked , & hereticall ; & finally , tearmeth their spirits : an Anabaptisticall furye . And D. Cowper n of Winchester , maketh like mention of their absurd Heresyes . A point so acknowledged , that D. Iewell wholy disclaymeth from the Albigenses , as Protestants ; saying thus plainly : They o be none of ours . Touching the Apostolici , or Henricians ; they are so far from beinge Protestants , as that they are acknowledged for Heretyks by D Fulke , p D. Iewel , q and Osiander , r who reports their Heresyes . But to proceed forward to other of your Examples . Peter Bruis is censured for an Hereticke , by Osiander , s and Hospinian ; t who relates his Heresyes . Almaricus his Heresies are reported by Osiander , & himselfe reiected for an Hereticke , and not acknowledged for a Protestant by the said Osiander ; u neyther by D. Iewell , x who speaking of the Albigenses , the Apostolici , and Almaricus , saith ( as before ) they be none of ours . And thus far Gentlemen ) touching the VValdenses , the Albigenses , the Apostolici , or Henricians , Peter Bruis , and Almaricus . D. REYNOLDS . I see no reason , but that we may be iustly distrustfull , in giuing ouer much credit , to the wryting of former tymes , which charge the Waldenses , Albigenses , and the rest , with the Heresyes by you recited : And if such wrytings were eyther false in himselfs , o● but forged only , through deceate and confederacy of their Enemyes ; then may the said Men well be reputed for true , and perfect Protestants . MICHAEAS . If you [ M. D. ] be so diffident , as that ( contrary to the iudgment of Osiander Hospinian and other Prtestants ) you will not beleiue the writings of former tymes , charging Waldo and the rest ( in this passage or discourse mentioned ) with the Heresyes afore alleadged ; then what colour can you pretend , why you should giue Credit to those Writings of the same tyme , which affirme , that the foresaid Men beleiued certaine Opinions of Protestancy ? And therefore it followeth by force of all Reason , that such Writings affirming both the one and the other , are eyther ioyntly to be beleiued and credited , or ioyntly to be reiected , as false and forged : And the rather , seing the Reporters of those tymes , did impartially and indifferently recite and condemne , all those opinions , wherein the foresaid Hereticks dissented from the Church of Rome ; without any foreknowledge , which of the said Opinions , would eyther be approued or reiected , by Men of this age . So weake you see [ M. D. ] is this your Replye . OCHINVS . I am of iudgment , that the VValdenses , and the rest can 〈…〉 truly be reputed for Protestants , in regard of the reasons alledged by you [ Michaas . ] And I do hould , that your last reply [ M. D. ] ( touching the vncertainty of the credit of those wrytings , charging the VValdenses , and all the other with Heresyes ) is most firmely auoyded by Michaas . NEVSERVS . I am of the same iudgement with Ocbinus herein : And the truth is , we do much wrong the honour of our Church , by pretending such vnworthy Men , for members thereof . But proceede [ M. D. ] to higher tymes . D. REYNOLDS . In the precedent ages to these former ( if credit may be giuen to authenticall Historyes ) there were not only many Protestants , but euen seuerall Bookes then written , in defence of the Protestant Religion : As the Authour of the Booke , written against Images , in the name of Carolus Magnus : Bertram , Vlrick , Berengarius &c. All or any of which to denye , to haue bene Protestants , were to infringe all authority of Ecclesiasticall History . MICHAEAS . There are not any of these , you haue named , as much ( I may say ) as of the halfeblood to a Protestant : so little affinity there is , betweene the Protestants Religion , and these Mens religion . I grant , that some Protestants ( and these but very few , and of meane esteeme ) do instance ( through their security of better examples ) in these your mentioned men ; but how coldy and weakly , we will now discouer . And first , touching the Booke written against Images , in the name of Carolus Magnus , I say , first , that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion ; and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes . Secondly , I auer , that it was forged by some Heretike , that denyed the doctrine of Images ( perhapps ) in those dayes ; but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus . This I prooue first , because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome , and it fayth in generall ; And therefore the lesse probable it is , that he should wr●t , or suffer to be written in his name , any booke , inpugning but any one point of that Religion . I will relate the words of Hospinian ( the Protestant ) touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth ; Thus be sayth : y Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis &c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts , that the Ceremonyes , rites , the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome , and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome , should be obserued , through out the whole Empyre ; but also himselfe did force the Churches , to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments , and other kinds of punishments ; with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus z M. Cowper , a and Osiander . b Secondly , in that it is acknowledged by learned writers , that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those , who impugned Images . For Paulus c Aemilius witnesseth , that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome , vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians , against Images . The same doctrine of Images , as defended by Carolus , is further confessed by the Centurists , d D. Cowper , e and by Ioannes f Aurelianensis , who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus . Thirdly and lastly , there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke . For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian , to Carolus Magnus ( which booke was purposely written , against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name ) that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images : a point so euident , that Caluin g intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke , thus saying : E●tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine &c. There is extant a booke of refutation , vnder the name of Carolus Magnus ; which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme : so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke . Touching the supposed booke of Beriram , written de Corpore & Sanguine Domine , and dedicated to Charle the Bawld ; as said , to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist : Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius , in the name of Bertram . I say [ M. D. ] first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence , vsing the words : figure , spirituall , and Mystery , with such qualifications , as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence ; yea which is more , this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence , as that the Centurists h do thus censure of it : Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus , The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation . Secondly , the Catholicke wryters of those tymes , ( as Hospinian relateth at large ) did honour i Bertram , as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church . How then is it probable , that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles , defended & beleiued by the said Church ? Thus far of Bertram . Touching Vlricke ( who was Bishop of Augusta ) who is vrged for a Protestant , in that it is supposed , he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage , and printed lately at Basill . We reply , that by force of all Reason , this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name ; and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead , or before that Vlrick was borne . For as Onuphrius k writeth ; Pope Nicolas the first ( to whom it is supposed , Vlrick should write ) was elected Pope , anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares , and two months , & dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta , till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas ; And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares , dyed anno 973. Of which point , we may reade Vspergensis , l Cytraeus , m & Pantaleon . n D. REYNOLDS . But what say you [ Michaeas ] touching Burengarius ; I hope it cannot be denyed , but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation ? MICHAEAS . I come to Burengarius ( who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers ) who is challenged for a Protestant , for his deniall of Transubstantiation , in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist ; I answere , first . It is true , that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation : yet afterwards he recanted o his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article . Secondly , I answere , that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius , did hould diuers errours , euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius , p the Protestant : who thus writeth of him : Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum , & coniugium , Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants , and Marriage : And againe : Damnata q est Berengarij Opinio , Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens : The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned , which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood . Also Papir Masson r in his Annals of France writeth , that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme ; denyed , that men committing mortall sinne , could euer obtaine Pardon ; and further , that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage . Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes : though himselfe before his death ( according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers ) recanted his Heresyes . But ( M. D. and you Gentlemen ) I will conclude this passage , with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe . suppose therefore for the tyme , that these former bookes were doubtfull , but truly penned by the Authours , vnder whose name they go : suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation ; suppose finally , that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes , houlding this or that point of Protestancy : yet what can all this conuince ? It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church : seeing all these ( thus admitted ) are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man , who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy ( still remayning in all other articles , wholy Catholicke . ) And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke s herein , who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram , Berergarius , and those others , reiecteth them in these words : Although thes and such like defenced some part of the tru●h which we ●ould against you ; yet le●st you should obiect , it was but in some one or two points , ●passe them ouer with silence Thus D. Fulke , who euen vpon this ground , preterm●●teth all the said examples , and first instanceth in Wicklefe . OCHINVS . I do find [ Michaeas ] some learned Protestants to make mention of Ioannes de t rupescissa , Gui●ie●mus de S. Amore , Peter u Blois , and some others for good and found Protestants ? what is your opinion of them . MICHAEAS . I grant they are claymed for Protestants , but obserue how iniustly . And first , touching Ioannes de rupe scissa : M. Fox x thus writeth of him . Iohannes de Rupe scissa , liued anno 1340. who for rebuking the spiritualty for their great enormityes , and neglecting their office , was cast in prison . Thus M. Fox . Thus we see , he otherwyse was Catholicke in all points . Willi●lmu● de S. Amore is thus charged by Pantaleon y the Protestant : Gulielmus de S. Amore Monach●s ex 〈…〉 osyna , in otio 〈…〉 tes , non salua●i scribens , a Papa Haereticus censetur : Guilielmus de S. Amore , teaching , that Monkes liuing of Almes in idlenes , could not be saued , is therefore censured by the Pope for an Hereticke . Lastly , Peter Blois , who liued anno 1200. is freed from being a Protestant by Osiander in these words : z Petrus Blesensis &c. principum , praelatorum , religiosisorum & priuatorum peccatā grauiter arguit ; non tamen Pontificios errores refutauit . Peter Blois did much aggrauate the sinns of Princes , Prelates , Religious , and priuate Men ; but he no way intermedled with the errours of Popish religion . Now [ Ochinus ] I refer euen to your selfe , how vntruly these former Men may be obtruded vpon vs for Protestants . But the proceeding of our Aduersaries in this question of the visibility of their Church is incredible , who are not ashamed ( in their owne defence herein ) to challenge ( besydes registred and confessed Hereticks ) any one , that hath impugned the Pope or his Church but in any one point , eyther of manners or doctrine ; And hence it is , that they challenge to themselfs for Protestants , men , whom all the world do know to be Catholicks , in all articles of fayth without exception : Thus are Willielmus Occam , and Gandanensis by M. Fox : a & Iohn Scotus b by Osiander vrged for Protestants . Thus also is S. Bede claymed by D. Humfrey , c of whom Osiander d thus speaketh : Bede was a Papist in all those Articles , wherein Protestants do at this day dissent from the Pope . Thus is Peter Lombard placed in the Catalogue e of the Doctours and restorers of the heauenly doctrine , whom notwithstanding M. Fox f styleth : An archpillar of Papistry . Thus also Ioannes Gerson & Thomas Aquinas ( whom all Christendome acknowledgeth to be of the Church of Rome ) are challenged for Protestants by Illyricus . g Finally , Thus is Erasmus canonized by them for a Protestant , and particularly by your selfe [ M. D. ] h & yet we reade , that Erasmus thus writeth : i Christum agnosco , Lutherum non agnosco , Ecclesiam Romanam agnosco . Christ 〈◊〉 acknowledge , Luther I do not acknowledge , the Church of Rome I acknowledge . But D. Field ( one of this vniuersity ) ouergoeth all others ; for he with more , then a meretricious and frontles bouldnes , auerreth , that all Christendome before the dayes of Luther , were Protestants ; for thus he writeth : k We firmely beleiue , that all the Churches of the world wherein our Fathers liued and dyed , to haue bene the true ( Protestant ) Churches of God &c. And that they , which taught , imbraced , and beleiued those damnable errours , which the Romanists defend against vs , were only a faction : An assertion , which Impudency it self● would blush to mantayne ; it being controuled by all historyes whatsoeuer , and by the free acknowledgment of all Protestant wryters without exception . NEVSERVS . This bould asseueration of D. Field ( I confesse ) displeaseth me infinitly ; and it is no small blemish to vs ( who professe the Gospell ) and who should bound and measure our speeches with truth , at least with some probability of Truth , thus to write . For who knoweth not , that the Masse ( which contayneth in it selfe , diuers doctrines of the Romish Religion ) was the publike Leyturgy , celebrated in all Churches throughout Christendome , at Luthres first reuolt from the Pope ? And I grant , that this may giue iust suspition to many to thinke , that we make vndue clayme to the auncient Fathers , and others aboue instanced ( being further of in tyme remoted from vs ) when some of vs blush not , to affirme so vntruly of the dayes next before Luther , and of the tyme , in which himselfe first did rise vp ; it being yet in the memory of Man. But [ M. Doctour ] I pray you , proceede to higher tymes . D. REYNOLDS . I acknowledge , it is a difficult point , to name professours of Protestancy , for euery age : Though ( no doubt ) our Protestant Church ( as being the true Church ) enioyed many Professours at all tymes . But these examples afore produced , may giue great coniecture ; that at all times since the Apostles , there haue bene many faithfull Protestants , and an answerable administration of the word & Sacraments . MICHAEAS . Touching your former produced examples ; your owne secret iudgment ( no doubt ) assureth you that as yet we haue not met with one pertinent example , in all this discourse . But seeing you [ M. D. ] do forbeare to instance for former ages , yet not discussed ( contrary to your promised attempt in the beginning ) I would entreate Ochinus , or Neuserus , to insist in perticular Instances of Protestancy , for euery such age . OCHINVS . I will speake both for my selfe and N●userus . The labour of instancing is peculiar to M. Doctour ; And therefore we would be loath , ( as being no more able to performe it , then he ) to take it from him , and assume it to our selfs . MICHAEAS . M. Doctour and you two Gentlemen . These are but words , seruing fruitlesly to rauell out the time , allotted for disputation : Therefore once more I vrge you all , to giue instances for euery age , not yet mentioned . NEVSERVS . What needs this earnest solicitation of you in this point ? There were ( no doubt ) in euery of those Centuryes many Protestants : And let that suffice . MICHAEAS . What Neuserus ? Generalityes without particulars ? What Logicke is this ? And yet you know , Logicke is the schollars eye , wherewith he discerneth Sophisms and subtill Euasions . But the plaine truth is , neither any of you , or any learned Man whosoeuer is able so much , as but to suggest any one man ( much lesse any one Country ) professing in the next precedent ages the Protestant fayth . And therefore ( since Necessity is euer pardonable ) I pardon you all for your flying to these generall answeres ; though I must confesse , they openly discouer the strayts , within which you are here enuironed . But [ Learned Men ] seing we haue waded so far in this discourse , we will reflect a little vpon the former examples or Instances . And I will here deale liberally with you , in yeelding ●or the tyme more , then I am bound to doe . And as the Ma●●ematicians do forge certaine imaginary and vnreal Circles in the Heauens , whereby they arriue to the knowledge of the true and naturall motions of the stars and planets : So I will for the tyme here imagine , that Waldo , Wicklef , Hus and the rest by you exemplifyed , were in all points Protestants , and that their faith was not contaminated and soyled with any one Errour or Heresy : yet from these acry supposals , I will neuerthelesse deduce the infallible and certaine truth of the defection of the Protestants Church ; And will proue , that the said Examples ( admitting them for true examples ) are not sufficient , for seuerall Reasons , to support the visibility of the Protestant Church . 1. And first , we are here to call to mind , that the Church of God ( as appeareth from the Etymology of the Word : Ecclesia , and the Ecclesiasticall acceptance thereof ) is a calling out , or Congregation of many of the faithfull : So as to the necessary being of the Church ( especially after the first plantation of it ) not one or two , but diuers and many faythfull must concurre . Which point is made more euident , in that the administration of the Word and Sacraments ( being euer a most necessary Attendant of the Church ) includeth in it selfe a multitude of persons , consisting of Pastours and Doctours , on the one side , and of spirituall sheepe or children on the other side . In like sort the former prophecyes touching the encrease , amplitude , & continuall splendour of the Church do euict the same . Now to apply this to our present purpose . In some of the former examples , we fynd no mention of others , ioyning in beleife with the first supposed Protestants of that tyme : There●ore from hence it may be concluded , that the being of any one such strange Protestant or other , doth not include the being of any Protestant Church at that tyme ; much lesse , the Visibility of such a supposed Church , during but that very tyme. 2. Secondly , the Scriptures and first part of our discourse , do irrefragably prooue , that the Church of God must , not at one only tyme or other , but all tymes , and in all ages , without the least interruption or discontinuance ( much lesse , without interruption for many hundred yeares togeather ) be most visible and conspicuous ; for it is resembled ( euen in this respect ) by Gods sacred Writ , to a Citty , l placed vpon a hill , that cannot be hid at any tyme : And to a mountayne , m prepared in the top of mountaynes , and exalted aboue Hills . All which implyeth a continuall and incessant Visibility of the Church : To which Scriptures D. Fulke n and o D Whitakers subscrbe ( as aboue is shewed ) Both who teach , that euen in the greatest persecution of Antichrist ( much more , then at other tymes ) the Church of God shal be most visible , and as Bullenger p sayth : right famous . This now being granted , and withall it being acknowledged by D. ●ulke q and other learned Protestants , ( who speake more sparingly and warily here of , then others of their Brethren do , who grant a longer tyme of the reigne of the Catholicke Fayth and Religion ) : That anno Domini 607. the papists religion preuayled ( as the sayd Doctour speaketh ) and that all Popes from Boniface the third , were Antichrists ; which Boniface did liue about the said yeare 607. Now here satisfying my selfe at this present , with our Aduers : Confessions , touching the continuance of our Catholicke Religion ; I demaund ( M. D. and you learned Men ) what Protestants can be alledged , liuing betweene Anno 607. and 〈◊〉 220. at which tyme liued Waldo . Here are about six hundred yeares betweene these two tymes ; during all which Period , as also for euery yeare thereof , you stand obliged to alledge Protestants for the continuance of the Visibility of your Church ; or els to acknowledge your Church not to be the Church of God. But here all you Protestants are at a stand ; as being not able to name any one Protestant liuing within the compasse of the said six hundred yeares ; I meane from anno 607. to anno 1220 wherby to support the Visibility of your Church , but for any part of that tyme ( much lesse for whole tyme. ) And if you [ M. Doctour ] can instance for those tymes , I here prouoke you thereto : for as for Bertram , and Berengarius &c. their examples are ouer vnworthy to be insisted vpon ( as aboue is showed ) Besyds , supposing them for Protestants , yet their examples serue but only during the life of Bertram and Berengarius ; both which liued some foure or fiue hundred yeares after the acknowledged foresaid 607. yeare of Boniface ; for which foure or fiue hundred yeares , you still remayne bound to instance your Protestants . Againe Waldo ( as is said ) liued in anno 1220. Wocklefe liued anno 1370. Hu● in anno 1405. Luther liued more then a hundred yeares after Hus. Here we see againe , there is a good number of yeares betweene euery one of these seuerall tymes : And here I demand agayne of you , to name some Protestants to fill vp the Bancks ( as it were ) or empty roomes of these many Sta●ions : During all which tyme , you cannot instance ( I am sure ) in any one knowne confessed Protestant . Wherefore I conclude , that seing the Church of God is to be at all tymes & seasons euer visible and discernable ; And seing your former Examples of Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , and the rest aboue mentioned ( admitting them for true examples in all points ) are found defectiue to proue your Churches Visibility ; that therefore your Protestant Church ( for want of this visibility , so necessarily required ) is not the true Church of God ; and consequently , that I haue no warrant , to leaue the Catholicke Church , and to implant my selfe in your Protestant Church . 3. Thirdly , All the former Men ( I meane , Berengarius , Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , Luther &c. ) were originally Catholicks ; and then after by forging of new doctrines ( afore vntaught ) they deuyded themselues from the Church then in being : And so thereby they iustifyed in themselfs those words of S. Iohn : ( r ) they went out of vs ; the very signature or Character of an Hereticke , euen in the iudgment of Protestants . s Now this disparture or going out of the Church , implyeth in lieu of a continuance of their Church , an interruption , discontinuance , and defection of their Church ( and consequently a want of Visibility of their sayd Church : Since it infallibly proueth , that the doctrines taught by these men after their departure , was not taught by the Church afore in being : for if they had bene taught by it , these Men needed not to leaue the then knowne Church , for their defending and teaching of their said doctrines . 4. Fourthly & lastly , you ( no doubt ) will say , that Wicklefe , Hus , Luther &c. did preach the word and administer the Sacraments to their disciples ( since without these meanes , euen by your confession , the Church cannot subsist . ) Here then , seing no t Man taketh to him the honour of Priesthood , but he that is called of God , as Aaron was . And seing according hereto it is sayd : how u shall they preach , except they be sent ? And further , who so x entreth not at the dore , into the sheepfould , but clymeth another way , is a theife . I now demand [ M. Doctour ] who did call Luther , Hus , Wicklefe , &c. to preach the word , and administer the Sacraments ? Or by whom were they sent ? D. REYNOLDS . I here answere , with Caluin , y Beza , z and D. Fulke : a that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God , in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes , and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes . MICHAEAS . This is but extrauagantly spoken , and merely forged by you Protestants [ M. D. ] as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling . But b to refute this phantasy : Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed ( as it was in the Apostles ) with working of miracles , euen by the iudgment of the Protestants thēselfe : Among whom c Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling , saying : Vnde venis ? quis te 〈…〉 is●● ? 〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 , que is a Deo missum esse testantur ? ( See how by Gods prouidence , Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe . ) And therefore D. Bils●n , as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling ( not warranted with Miracles ) thus confesseth : d They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission , who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession . Thus then Luther , Hu● , Wicklefe , and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling , immediatly by God himselfe : since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle , euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke , whose words are these : It e is knowne , that Caluin and the rest , whom Papists call Archhereticks , do worke no Miracles . D. REYNOLDS . Some learned Protestants ( to wit , f D. Whitakers , D. Bridges , g and others ) do auerre , that it is not improbable to affirme , that Wicklefe , Hus , Luther , &c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome ; Which calling was conferred vpon them . before their departure out of that Church . Which opinion of theirs ( admitting it for true ) taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument . MICHAEAS . Neuer [ M. D. ] doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds , more windings and turnings , to saue her life ; then you Protestants do here , to salue your Vocation : for you being here stabled ; to get your selfe out of the myre , sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary , and immediate from God ; warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms ( forsooth ) and illuminations . But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open , then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church , making it your Sanctuary . But see , with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed . For ( besides , that Walde , as being a Layman , neuer receaued any calling from thence ) Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church , Antichristian ? seing it seemes , you confesse , that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther , Hus , and the rest , and to their successours or descendents ; which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church . For if the Pope be Antichrist , and his Church , Antichristian ( as your Brethren in their pulpitts , do vociferate ) then how can you pretend , their Calli●g to be sufficient and warrantable ? seing your owne men teach , h that in Babylon ( meaning thereby the Church of Rome ) there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed , but a mere vsurpation . And most certaine it is , and confessed by all learned Men ; that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission , for the Preaching of the Word of Christ , and admitting the Sacraments of Christ . Now if Luther , Hus , Wicklefe , and the rest do want true calling , then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church ; and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility : So plunged ( we see ) you Protestants are , when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther , Hus , Wicklefe , and their successours . And thus far now ( Learned Men ) to demonstrate , that supposing Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , Luther , and the rest instanced in your precedent passages , had bene in all points of beliefe , Protestants ; & that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks , in any Catholicke doctrines , nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes ; yet it is most euident ( in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged ) that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient , to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church , in that manner , as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant , and peculiarly by our selfs , according to the beginning of this our disputation . OCHINVS . With M. Doctour good leaue , who hath showed great reeding in his former examples ( though they be not so conuincing and pregnant , as I did hope to find them ) Neuserus , and I will vndertake , to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church , in all precedent ages . And you are heare ( Learned Michaeas ) to know , I am of opinion , that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen , for all these former tymes by you mentioned , yet followeth it not , that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes ( which is only the Question betweene vs ) for many Reasons may be giuen , why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes . And one Reason may be this , you know well , the Popes for many ages haue borne more , then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion ; euer endeuouring by all meanes possible , to extirpate it out ; Therefore my iudgment is , that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages , as they labored by all courses , to extinguish all remembrance of them , as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants ; by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy ; and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants ; thus hoping , that the Memory of them , might be interred with their Bodyes . This is my opinion . I meane , that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only , that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes , through the Popes affected malignity . MICHAEAS . It is strange , to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion . For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings , that there can be named Protestants , liuing in euery Century since Christ ( as you , M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse , with great ven●itation did vndertake to performe . ) Now you retyre backe [ Ochi●●s ] from M. D. assertion , and say ; doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages ; though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other , were concealed from Posterity : So distracted you are in your owne iudgements , passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes . Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man ; since now zealously to affect an opinion , at another tyme to let the same saulle , by entertayning the contrary opinion , is but the Ague of an irresolute , and inconstant iudgement . But to come to the point . First I say , that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. D●●tours former Instances . For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes , by the Popes Agens ( as here you say ) how then can we know , that Berengarius , Waldo , Wicklefe , &c. were Protestants ? And if these and others were Protestants , then was not Protestancy and the Mantayners of it wholy extinguished by the former Popes sedulity and diligence . How do you extricate your selfe [ Ochinus ] out of this Labyrinth ? Agayne , I say , this your sentence is but a meere Imagination , wrought in the forge of your owne brayne . For you haue neyther proofe nor colour of proofe , that either the names of Protestants in former ages should be concealed , or their bookes , or any other Records touching them should ( by the labored confederacy of the Popes and their followers ) be suppressed and made away ; And why then should here your bare asseueration be credited ? Secondly , I vrge , that such proceedings , as here are pretended to be ( as the extinguishing the light and splendour of Christs Church , for so many ages togeather ) do mainly impugne the Prophecyes of holy Scripture , deliuered of it , for we reade , that it is sayd of Christs Church : Her i Sunne shal not be set , nor her Moone hid : That she k shall not be giuen to another People ; but shall stand for euer : That she shal be l an eternall glory and ioy from Generation to generation . All which Prophecyes ( besydes diuers others ( recited by your selfe afore ) tending to the exaltation and glory of Christs Church , how dissortingly and disproportionably can they be auer●ed of the Protestant Church of former tymes ? If so the Annals , Records , and all other Monuments of it former being be wholy obliterated and extinguished ? Thirdly , this Euasion contradicteth the more ingenious and playne acknowledgments of others of your owne Brethren : who do teach , that your Church for sundry ages hath remayned wholy inuisible , or rather vtterly extinct . I will here produce the authority only of D. Parkins ; His words are these : For many m hundred yeares past , an vniuersall Apostasy hath ouerspred the whole face of the Earth : And our Church hath not bene visible to the world . Lastly and principally , this your surmise impugneth all experience , touching the cheife Occurrents of the same ages and times . For first we find , that the personall defects and blemishes of certaine Popes are registred in those tymes , and the relation of them are at this present extant ; Neyther could the Popes preuent the same ; And from such relations do the Protestants ( and particularly you , M. D. n in some of your writings ) vpbraid vs with the lesse warrantable life of some Popes . Now then these things standing thus , how could the Popes hinder the registring of any Professours of fayth , aduerse & contrary to themselfs in those dayes ? It is absurd therefore to thinke , that the Popes were well contented , that their owne scarts should remayne to be seene by all posterity ( supposing , it were their powers , to preuent the same ) and yet should affectedly labour , that all testimonyes of different professours in fayth from them ( but especially of Protestant Professours ) should be buryed in eternall silence and obliuion : Themselfs not being able to forsee , that protestancy should sweigh more in these dayes , then any other erroneous fayth and Religion . Againe , the Examples of the Wrytings of Hus , Wicklefe , the pretended booke of Carolus Magnus , the supposed booke of Bertram , the connterfeyted Epistle of Vlrick , and all other writings of the foresaid Hereticks , or any others at this day yet extant , ) & not suppressed ) fight mainly with this your Opinion : For were it not , that the said Wrytings and bookes were yet remayning to the world , the Protestants of these tymes could not haue knowne , what articles of protestancy the said Heretickes did mantayne in those dayes . Furthermore , the very subiect of the Decrees and Canons of Catholicke Councels , celebrated in all former ages , is chiefly the condemning and anathematizing of particular Heresyes , there [ verbatim ] set downe and expressed , as they did rise in the same ages ; with commemoration and recitall of the Hereticall doctrine inuented , and the person inuenting , with all other due circumstances . Ad hereto , that your owne Brethren confesse , what we here endeauour to proue . Among whom D. Whitakers shall serue for all at this tyme ; who being glad to make clayme for Protestants of all such , as in any sort resisted the Pope , thus writeth to his Catholicke Aduersary : o Vestris historijs nostrae Ecclesiae memoria viget ; Et qui Pontificij regni res narrare conati sunt , ij nostrae Ecclesiae sunt testis . The memory of our Church florisheth euen in your Historyes ; And those , who labored to relate the proceedings of the Popes Kingdome , are become Witnesses of our Church . Thus D. Whitakers . Lastly , we will adioyne , to all the former experiences , the historyes and Cronicles euen of the Protestants , whose subiect , taske , & designed labour is to relate and make mention of such strange & new doctrines , as did rise in euery age ; shewing , how the said doctrines were not proued ouer in silence by the Church of Rome ; but how , and when , and in what Popes reigne , they were openly gainsaid , crossed , and condemned by the said Church . And all this the Protestant Historiographers do borrow from the Catholicks auncient Records ( for but for those Catholicke Records , they could not tell , how in these dayes to write of those matters . ) This ( we see ) is performed very diligently by the Century writers , in their seuerall Centuryes : by Pantaleon in his Chronographia ; by Osiander in his Epitome Eccles . And by Illyricus in his booke stiled : Catalogus testium Veritatis , qui ante nostram aetatem reclamarunt Papae . And which is here to be noted ( as making more in our behalfe herein ) diuers of these opinions and doctrines , thus related by these Protestants , to haue bene condemned in former ages , are such , as are at this present mantayned for true doctryne by the Protestants . Now from all these premisses we may fully gather , how far those former ages or the Popes then liuing , were from laboring and affecting to keepe in silence or suppresse any doctrine whatsoeuer , or persons mantayning the same , which did appeare to be repugnant to the faith and Religion of the Roman Church at those tymes . But gentlemen I feare , I haue bene ouer longe . OCHINVS . Learned Michaeas , I do confesse , I haue seldome seene the weaknes of an opinion more fully and irreplicably displayed , then this of myne is by you at large , euen by direct of seuerall reasons ; And therfore for euer after I am resolued wholy to disauthorize , and depose it . For indeed I see , It is but a meere aery and vasperous Conceate , instantly dissipated before the least beame of a cleare Iudgment . NEVSERVS . I do ( with you Ochinus ) acknowledge the transparency of it , since an impartiall eye is at the first , able to see through it . But [ Michaeas ] I see no reason , but that we may auer , that the Protestant Church , and the administration of the Word & Sacraments were in all ages ; though the particular professours of it were latent , and indeed inuisible , through the raging tyranny and persecution , wherewith the Popes of former times did afflict all those , who in externall profession of fayth did in any sort dissent from them . And you know , how aduerse Aduersity is to Mans inclination : And therfore the lesse wounder , if the rayes of protestancy were in former tymes ouerclowded with the mysts of persecution . MICHAEAS . Indeed , I haue read , that Antonius sadellius ( a protestant of no vulgar note ) giueth this reason of the latency of his Church , and of the want of administration of the word and Sacrament in former ages ; with whom it seemes you [ Newserus ] in iudgment do ioyne . But to poyze the weight of this reason . Where first I must put you in mind , that it being approoued , maketh the protestant Church to be wholy inuisible in former tymes ; and so destroyeth the mayne Thesis or Tenet , mantayned by you all in the begining of this disputation ; who ioyntly did auer , that the Protestant Church was in all ages visible , & the professours of it were , knowne and discernable ; But to let that passe . Thus I argue , in further disproouall of this your poore refuge . The Church of God vnder persecution , eyther communicateth openly with the false visible Church , in participation of Sacraments and externall profession of Fayth ; Or els she doth refraine , from all such externall communion . If she doth not communicate with it ; then by such her refrayning , she is made knowne , and consequently is become therevisible : If she doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church ( as you repute the Church of Rome to be ) then is she not the true Church ; since the true Church cannot brooke any such dissimulation : I will enlarge my selfe vpon the seuerall parts of this Argument . And first , that the true Church by not communicating with a false Church , is ( in regard of the persecution comming thereby ) made visible , is cleere euen in reason it selfe . For who are persecuted , but Men , that are knowne ? And how can one lying secretly and vnknowne , be sayd to be persecuted ? A point so euident , that M. Curtwright confesseth , that the Church vnder persecution is visible and sensible , for els ( sayth he ) how q could it be persecuted ? Yea he further thus contesteth with his Aduersary , saying : To let passe , both Scriptures and storyes Ecclesiasticall , haue you forgotten , what is sayd in the first of Exodus ? that the more the children of Israel were persecuted , the more they encreased . With whom agreeth M. Iewell , saying : r The Church is placed vpon a mount , her persecutions cannot be hid . I may truly ad herto , that the greater and more violent the persecution is , the more visible knowne , and conspicuous , is the Church made thereby ; like to a ship , which the more it is tossed with waues and storms , the higher to the eye it appeareth ; or like vnto an Arch in building , which the greater weight and burden it beares , the more strong and firme it remaynes . The truth of which point is further warrantable , from the example of the persecution in the Primitiue Church ; which of all pressures of the Church , was incomparably the greatest . And yet we find , that the particular Bishops , Confessours , & Martyrs are euen to this day made knowne , who they were , and what Heresyes or false Religion they impugned ; And this from the penns not only of Catholicke Historiographers , but euen of Protestants ; of which subiect , you may peruse the s Centurists , t Pantaleon , u Functius , x Osiander , and M. y Fox . And may not the English Catholicks ( if I be truly informed ) deseruedly here insist in the Examples of their owne Nation . The Catholicks whereof in regard of their former persecutions in Queene Elizabeth her reigne , are so far from being latent and inuisible , as that they were become most famous & remarkable , throughout all Christendome . O pietatem de crudelitate lndentem . * Are not the names and memoryes of those reuerend Priests , and others of the Laity ( to speake nothing of many worthy Confessours , and others suffering great losses and disgraces ) who lost their liues in her dayes only for Religion ( whose blessed soules I humbly beseech , to interceede and pray for me , to our Sauiour : ) Are not their names and memories ( I say ) euen to this day fresh and liuing ? haue their deaths obliterated & extinguished their memoryes , or rather through a speaking silence , perpetuated and eternized them , their liues being by this meanes extended beyond their liues ? Who , by reason of their then calamities and pressures ( too well knowne to God and Man ) became balls to that state ; and might iustly complayne in the words of the Apostle : z Spectaculum facti sumus mundo & Angelis , & Hominibus . Such were the stormy flouds , innundations , and ouerflowings of persecution in the sayd Queenes tyme. But to returne , and to apply this here said . If the Catholicks in this Country ( being but a small part of Christendome ) could not , but for some few number of yeares in comparison , escape the search and hands of their persecutors , but became therby most visible and knowne : the very Ayre ecchoing forth their miseryes ; How could then the Protestants , ( being supposed to be dispersed throughout many Nations ) lye hid , and auoid for so many ages together ( as is pretended ) the force of that persecution , which is affirmed by our Aduersaryes , to haue bene far more greiuous , then euer this of England was . NEVSERVS . I pray you [ Michaeas ] descend to the second part of your former Argument ; And first tell me your iudgment , if it be not lawfull for auoyding of losse of goods , or death it selfe , sometymes to conceale our Religion ? MICHAEAS . No , we neuer ought to conceale our profession of fayth , for feare of any punishment how great soeuer : for here , nolle confiteri , * negare est . And though we are not to importune persecution ( for this were to tempt God ) or to take a spirituall pride in our afflictions , for our Profession of fayth , yet if the temporall Prince do impose any miseryes vpon vs our Religion , we are with all alacrity & Christian magnanimity , patiently to endure the same ; euer continuing in our former Religion , loyalty , and obedience , and powring cut our daily prayers to the Almighty ; that he would vouchsafe to touch the sayd Princes hart , with commiseration of our despicable and betrampled estates , and to grant him all true temporall and eternall happines our selfs in the meane tyme euer remayning confortable : Quid hic mali est , * cuius reus gaudet , cuius accusatio votum est , & paena faelicitas : But I will come to the second branch , which contayneth the reason of this my Assertion ; Which was : That if the Church of Christ doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church , she ceaseth ( ipso facto ) to be the true Church of God. This is most euident out of Gods sacred Writ , which teacheth vs. a that with the hart a man beleiueth vnto Iustice , and with the mouth confesseth vnto saluation : Which text is truly paraphrazed by D. Field in these words : Seing the Church is the b multitude of them , that shal be saued ; And no man can be saued , vnlesse he make Confession ●nto saluation ( for fayth hid and concealed in the hart , doth not suffice . ) It cannot be , but they , which are of the true Church , must by the profession of the Truth , make themselfs knowne in such sort , that by their profession and practise , they may be discerned from other men : A point further receauing it most warrantable truth , from Truth himselfe , who thus threatneth : c Whosoeuer shall deny me before Men , him I will deny before my Father in Heauen . And from hence it is , that the Protestants themselues thinke , they are obliged in conscience not to be present at the Seruice or Masse of the Catholicke Church , or to participate with the Catholicks in their Sacraments : Which kind of Recusancy is punctually taught by d D. Willet , e Melancthon , f Peter Martyr , g Bucer and h Caluin . But to draw towards an end of this your pretext of persecution . The same is refuted euen from the nature of the Church , delineated in Gods holy Word : and accordingly acknowledged by you Protestants . For if the Church of God must at all tymes be visible , and eminent ( as is largly proued by vs all in the first part of this discourse ) and must be eminent in so full a manner ; as that we are commanded to repayre to the Church in all our spirituall Necessityes , according to those words of our Sauiour : i Tell the Church &c. And if the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen to the end of the World , euer and at all tymes be practized in the Church of Christ ; How then can the Church , but by these meanes become most visible , or rather most radiant ? The force of which reason I will conclude , with the words of D. Humfrey , thus wryting : k Dum ministri docent , alij discunt ; illi sacramenta administrant , hi communicant ; omnes Deum inuocant , & fidem suam profitentur ; Qui ista non videt , talpa est caec●or , Whyles the Ministers do teach , and others do heare ; whyles these Men do administer the Sacraments , those do communicate or participate of them ; whyles all do call vpon God , and professe their fayth ; He , that doth not see these things , is more blynd , then a moale . NEVSERVS . Haue you not often obserued [ Michaeas ] how a little qu 〈…〉 tity of copper , in a counterfeyte Coyne ; And yet neyther is the corne or gould extinguished or annihilated ? But that it may be truly sayd , the Corne and chaffe is mingled together , & the gould and Copper moulted together ; And yet neyther is the Corne , chaffe , nor the gould copper : Why then by the like analogy & proportion , may it not be here auerred , that the Protestant Church , was in former ages in the Papacy ; the Papcy was in the Protestant Church ; and yet the Protestant Church was not the Papacy ? Which being granted , freeth our Church from an absolute Inuisibility , at least from an vtter extinction and ouerthrow of it in those former Popisn tymes . And to my remembrance , I haue read certayne learned Protestants , expressing this point , not much differently from my words : for I find M. Parkins , thus to allude to this saying : l The Church of Rome may be said to be in the Church of God ; and the Church of God in the Church of Rome ; with whom D. Whitakers m seemes to conspyre , thus wryting : Ecclesia ver a fuit in Papatu ; sed Papatus non fuit Ecclesia vera : And with these former euen n Beza ( besids o others ) doth agree , saying : voluit Deus in Papatu seruare Ecclesiam ; et si Papatus non est Ecclesia . Which answere is thought so sufficient and choaking , as that the former learned Protestant , M. Parkings much resteth vpon it , thus euen exulting : p This answere serues to stop the mouths of Papists , who demaund of vs , where the Church was fourescore yeres before Luther : for they are answered , that our Church hath bene since the dayes of the Apostles , and that in the very middest of the Papacy . MICHAEAS . O how ingenious and pregnant [ Niuserus ] is Nouelisme in fayth ; spining ( like the silke worme ) out of it owne wombe , such fine threeds of wit : But ( alas ) these threeds are too weake to detayne and hould the Aduersary . This diuersion of yours ( rather then answere ) consisteth of a froath of words , artificially put togeather : And indeed it partly resembleth your own former similitude . For the matter ( as I may say of it ) is euen 〈…〉 ase mettall , guilded ouer with a specious show of mysticall phrazes . For you Protestants , seing you are not able to instance particularly in any one man ( during so many ages , as from the Apostles dayes to Luther ) who was a perfect Protestant ; much lesse to instance in the administration of the Word and Sacraments : And also perceauing by Experience , that it soundeth in the eare couldly ( and indeede , harshly ) to grant in plaine and direct words , that the Protestant Church ( during all those ages ) was wholy extinct and vanished away out of the world : and further remembring , that great & huge burdens are better remooued by sleight of witty Engins , then by strength ; haue at length resolued to deliuer this your doctrine or Position , in an affected and obscure phraze , thereby ( as vnder aueyle or clowd ) to shadow the falshood thereof ; saying , as aboue you alledge : The Church is in the Papacy , the Papacy is in the Church ; And yet the Church is not the Papacy . Thus do you here imitate physitians , who giue physicke to delicate bodyes , not in the grosse substance , but eyther in infusion , or extraction . This curious frame of speech maks ( as I sayd ) a glorious show , at the first ; but examine it , and it presently resolues to nothing ; like vnto the lightning , which is an eminent Obiect to the eye , and yet it no sooner commeth , then it vanisheth . Now for the better discouery & displaying of this your sleight , you are here to conceaue , that the sense of these words is not , that the Protestant Church had in those tymes a latent and hidden being in Catholicke Countreyes , without hauing entercourse or Communion with the then knowne and visible Church , in the Sacraments . For so the true Church could not be said , to be in the Papacy ; no more then at this day in respect of it like aboadin Turkish Countreyes , it can be sayd to be in Turcisme . Therefore the particular manner of this strange and stupendious mixture together for externall Society ( like chaffe and Corne in due heape , or copper and gould in one coyne ) is truly expressed by Osiander ( the Protestant ) in these words : q Quod semper sub Papatu aliqui pij homines fuerint , qui errores Pontificios , & idolatrica sacra improbarunt : temetsi id non semper profiteri and ebant , nemo negat ; No man denyeth , but that there were euer vnder the Papacy some holy men , who disliked the Errors of the Popes , and their Idolatrous worshipps : although they durst not openly professe so much , Nisi ardere aut ad minimum exulare velint , except they would burne for their Religion , or at least suffer banishment . And yet the said Protestant more fully : Animum ad ist a pōtificia idolatrica sacra non applicusrunt , tameisi extern●●ritus non pro●sus negligerent , vt communi consue●●dino ( quasi torrente rapido ) arriperentur , vt eadem cum alijs facerent ; The faythfull of those tymes , did not apply their minds to , to those popish idolatrous worships ; although they did not wholy neglect their externall rites and ceremonies : and they were led with common custome ( as men caryed with a violent streame ) to do the same things with the Papists ; Quorum infirmitatem Deu● tolerauit & ●ondonauit , Whose infirmityes herein , God did tolerate & pardon . Thus Osiander doth apologize for his Protestant Church in former tymes . From whose testimony ( we see ) that the last sublimated sense of your former sentence resolues to this point ; To wit , that the Protestant Church in those former tymes , being in . or vnder the Papacy , did through feare of burning , or banishment , or some other persecution , dissemble their Religion , and communicate in all eternal rites and ceremonyes with the Church of Rome . This is the sole true construction of the foresayd quaynt sentence , though the former Protestants ( and perhapps , also your selfe Newser●s ) thought it good policy , to deliuer this their meaning to their followers , in nyce and artificiall words ( as Physitians are accustomed to giue their most bitter pils , rowled in sugar . ) But seeing this point of grosse and palpable dissimulation in Religion , is sufficiently discussed in our last passage , I will enlarge my selfe no further therein . NEVSERVS . Michaeas , I must confesse , that vpon my more serious and intense obseruation of what you haue here spoken , touching our deliuery of our former Answere , that it is like to the spydars web artificially wouen , but to small purpose : And indeed in a true examining of it , it is ( as you rightly say ) but the former Answere drawne from persecution , though fashioned a new , in an other mould . OCHINVS . I do acknowledg the same with Neuserus ; And therefore it is but losse of tyme , to insist in such Extrauagancyes and phan●asyes . But to proceed , if there were no other reason to euict the visibility &c. If there were no other reason , to euict the visibility of the Protestant Church , yet this following is of it selfe sufficient : The true Church of Christ is euer to be visible ( as we all aboue haue taught : ) Now we can prooue out of Scriptures , that the Protestant Church is only the true Church . Therefore we may infallibly conclude , that the Protestant Church hath euer bene most visible . That our Church is the true Church of Christ , we proue , in that it professeth that fayth , which is agreable to the holy Scripture . This is our demonstration ; This is our Asylum . Here we need not to recurre to Ecclesiasticall Historyes , or to search out examples of protestancy for euery age ; since this reason comprehendeth within it selfe all ages , as a greater number doth the lesser . MICHAEAS . Indeede I grant , this Argument is the Mayster-peece in all your shopps ; and ( as you well tearme it ) your Sanctuary . But may not the Arians , the Anabaptists , or any other Hereticks prooue by the same ground , their Church euer to haue bene visible ? Who ( no doubt ) with as great confidence ( as your selfs do ) will maintayne , that they can iustify their Church from the Scripture it selfe , to be the only true Church of God : See how you Protestants here labour with the generall Infirmity of all Sectaryes ; and see how truly that Aphorism of the Physitians is verifyed in you and them : to wit , One and the same Symptome is incident to seuer all diseases . But seing Doctour Whitakers ( for his vpshot ) did cast his last argument in his conference with Cardinal Bellarmyne , in this your frame & mould , to prooue that the Church of Rome had altered it Religion , because ( said he ) it fayth and Religion is contrary to the holy Scripture ; Therefore as loath to obtund your eares with a fastidious iteration of the same points , I referre you to the full answere of the Cardinall , * giuen therto . Only before I here cease , I will patterne this your Euasion . If then some slippery fellow should truly owe your [ Ocbinus ] a hundred pounds , and ought to pay it by ten pounds euery yeare ; The yearely dayes of paymēts being come , you require of him the siluer . He confidently auerreth , that he hath payed you euery yeare , the allotted portion of ten pounds , till the whole hundred was payd . You deny the same , and will him , eyther to show some quittance of any one payment , or produce some witnesses thereof , or relate some circumstance eyther of tyme or place , where the yearely paymēts were made . Now he ( not being able to make good any one of these points , not so much as but for one yeares payment ) flyeth to this shift , saying : Euery man of honesty , integrity , and sufficiency will pay his debts , according to the due tymes of payment ; But he is assured , that himselfe is in the number of thes● men professing honesty , integrity , and sufficiency . Therefore certayne it is that he hath payed the foresayd hundred pounds , within the prescribed tymes of payment . Thus this Cheater bringeth his owne honesty ( which may iustly be called in Question ) as a Medium , for proofe of these his imaginary payments , as you do alledge the Conformity of the Protestants Religion to the Scripture , for the supposed visibility of your Protestans Church for many ages . Now [ Ochinus ] if you like this mans answere ( for both his and yours are wouen in one & the same loome ) my wish then is , that the next tyme you lend any siluer , you may ( for a punishment of your ignorance herein ) be repayed backe after the same manner . NEWSERVS . I cannot , but ingeniously confesse , that our flying to the Scripture in this place , serues only but to preuent the instancing of Protestants for former tymes : And so to make a subtill and flye transition from the expected examples of Protestancy , to the vniformity of the Protestant Religion with the Scripture : And indeed it is but a Paralogisme or fallacy , called Petitio principij ; consisting in assuming that to be proued and confested , which is most in Question . For the mayne Question betweene the Papists and vs is , Whether their Religion or ours is more agreable to Gods Word ? And [ Michaeas ] I confesse you speake the truth , in saying ; that euery Hereticke will appeale to the Scripture , and will vrge a conformity of his fayth to it , and consequently may seeke to iustify his owne Churches visibility by this his Appeale ; Whose Priuate spirit ( forsooth ) by detorting of the Scripture , is able to Proiect any text thereof ( as Al●hymists do of Mettalls ) so as it shall endure the touch , for the gilding ouer of his Heresy : An Haeretici * ( sayth old Vincentius Lyrinensis ) Diuini Scripturae testimonijs vtantur ? Viuntur planè & vehement er quidem ; sed tantò magis cauendi sunt . OCHINVS . Indeed now vpon a second reuiew of this my argument , I do not find that force in it , which in the beginning it seemed to cary . And I do see , that euery Hereticke ( I meane in his owne iudgement , and according to his owne false interpretation of Scripture ) may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes , as fully as we Protestants can do : And therefore . I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius , alledged by you . Neuserus . D. REYNOLDS . I haue found some of our owne learned brethren , to teach ( though aforehand I tell you , Michaeas , that I dissent in opinion from them ) that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church , are but one and the same Church ▪ from which position they inferre : that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God , and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed ( at least , as you Romanists do auer●e ) in the Church of Rome ; that consequently ( ours and yours being but one Church ) they are performed in the Protestant Church . And according hereto we find M. Hooker r thus to teach . We gladly acknowledg them of Rome , to be of the family of Iesus Christ &c. And agayne ; we say that they of Rome &c. are to be held a part of the house of God , a limme of the visible Church of Christ : with whome conspireth D. Some s thus graunting : The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome , to be the Church of God. But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one , eyther to retayne it , or reiect it . MICHAEAS . Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould : And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded , vnder the Wings of Truth . For whereas the most dispassionate , sober , & learned Protestants among you , do grant , that for many ages before Luthers reuolt , they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular , ( much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments . ) And yet during all the sayd ages , they see , that all this is actually accomplished , in our Catholicke Roman Church ; They are therefore forced to giue back , and to retyre in all their former answeres ; And at length are driuen ( for the supporting of their owne Church ) to say that the Protestant Church & the Roman Catholicke Church , are identically but one and the same Church : And thereupon they inferre , ( as you M. Doctour say ) that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment , hath euer continued visible , during all the former ages ; that therefore your Protestant Church ( both being but one and the same , by their ( curteous yeelding ) hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility , and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments : So ready you Protestants are , for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes , to ioyne hands with they Catholicks ( if so they would agree therto ) you granting , that your owne Succession , calling , and Ministery is and hath bene , for former ages continued and preserued , only in the Succession , calling , & Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church . And according to this our meaning , M. Bunny ( a Protestant of good esteeme here in England ) dealeth plainly & ingeniously herein ; for he not only teacheth , as the former Protestants do , but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine ; to wip , that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church , during so many former ages : for thus he writeth : t Of the departing from the Church , there ought to be no question amang vs. We u are no seuerall Church front them ( meaning from vs Catholicks ) nor they from vs ; And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church : Nor any do depar● from them to vs , nor from vs to them &c. And yet more fully : It x was euill done of them , who vrged first such a separation &c. For y that it is great probability for them ( meaning vs Catholicks ) that so we make our self● answerable , to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them , which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present ; Or els , that needs we must acknowledge , that our Church is sprung vp but of late , or since theirs : And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth : z Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage , if they can ioynt vs to this separation . Thus M. Bunny . But touching my particular iudgment herein , I vtterly ( with all Catholicks ) disclayme from mantayning , that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one : And I confidently auerre , that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants , for the reasons aboue expressed . OCHINVS . What is the matter brought to this Issue , that we must grant the Papists Church , and our Church to be one and the same Church ? Is this [ M. Doctour ] the euent of our disputation ? I will here imprecate with the Poet a against myselfe . Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat ; Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat ●●ful●ine ad vmbra● , Pall●●ies vmbras Erebi , ●octe●que profundam . Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome , to be the Church of God. NEVSERVS . I giue you free leaue [ Ochin●s ] to include me within this your imprecation . For I will dye the death of a sinner , before I grant , that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church . What ? shall Superstition and Idolatry ( by our owne consents ) be aduanced and set vp ( side by side ) with the Gospell , in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle ? It is a thing insufferable ; and the thought thereof is not so much , as once to be entertayned . MICHAEAS . Gentlemen ; good words . God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs , be not heard . And though I be of your mynd , that the Catholicke Church , and your Church is not all one Church , yet if before your deaths , you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome , for the true Church , doublesly your prayer wil be heard , when your selfs ( though too late ) shall with vnutterable ( but improfitable ) remo●se , condemne your selfs , of your owne grosse consideration , in so weighty a matter . But M. Doctour and you two . Hitherto , we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments , for your Churches visibility , and my answering of them . Now I do expect , that our Scenes be altered ; And that I may insist in obiecting , what I haue red confessed , euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect : For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute , are in all Reason , and by custome of all Schooles , most warrantable . D. REYNOLDS . We giue you good leaue . For it argueth a great distrust & diffidence in a Mans cause , to tye his aduersary only to answere , and neuer to suffer him to oppose : And it is as vnreasonable , as if in a Duelisme , the one party should be indented with , only toward , and neuer to sryke : Therefore proceed [ Mich●●s ] at your pleasure . MICHAEAS . Truth sayth b [ S. Augustin ] i● m●re foroible to wr●ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rack● or torm●nt . Which sentence we fy●d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility : For diuers learned Protestants there are , who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings , and in their managing of matters of Religion , then others of their party ; & as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances , and other colorable euasions and answeares ( which serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant ) do in the closure of all , both by certaine necessary inferences , as also in playne and expresse tearmes , grant the point here controuerted ; to wit , that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather , bene wholy inuisible , and not knowne to any one man liuing ; or rather , that during such said ages , it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne , destroyed , and ( as it were ) annihilated , and no such Church in being . The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage . This point then is prooued two wayes , and both from the penns of the Protestants . First , from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours , and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling . Secondly , from their manifest & open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words ; or rather of it vtter extinction & Nullity . And as touching the first . It is euident euen in reason it selfe , that that Church , which wanteth succession of Pastours & ordinary Calling , ( if any such Church could be ) must needes be inuisible , at least at that tyme , when such want is . And the reason hereof is , because this want necessarily presupposeth , that there were not in that supposed Church , any former Predecessours or Pastours at all , which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers . But where no Pastours are , there are no sheepe ( for it is written : how c shall they heare , without a Preacher ? ) And where no sheepe are , there is no Church ; And where is no Church , there is no visisibility of it ; since euen Logicke instructeth vs , that : Non Eutis ●●n est Accidens . That the Protestant Church for many ages , hath wanted all personall succession , and ordinary Calling , is ouereuident ; seeing ( besides that , which hath bene sayd of this point already ) we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse . For thus doth Sadellius write : Diuers d Protestants affirme , that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling , as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes , which they do attribute only to the Papists . And hence it is , that many Protestants confesse , that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling , which is immediatly from God , without any help of man. Thus for example , Caluin saith : Quia Papae tyrannide &c. Because through the tyrann● of the Pope , true succession of Ordination was broken off ; therefore we stand neede of a new course herein ; and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary . Thus Caluin . And D. Fulke f in like manner sayth : The Protestants , that first preached in these dayes , had extraordinary Calling ; with whom agreeth D. Parkins , saying : The calling of W●cklefe , Hus , Luther , Oecolampadius , Peter Martyr &c. was extraordinary . Thus we see , that the Protestants , confessing the want of personall succession in their Church , as also the want of Ordinary Vocation , and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation ; do euen by such their Confessions , acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes , and an interruption ( next before ) of all personall succession : for if succession of Pastours had then bene really & truly in being ; then had those men bene visible , to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned ; and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling : Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles ( as aboue is showed ) in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants : h or otherwise it is but a meere illusion : And we haue not red or heard , that any of those first Protestants ( who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling ) haue euer wrought , in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine , any one Miracle . OCHINVS . I must confesse [ Michaeas ] that you haue discussed well of this poynt , and in my iudgment very forcingly . But proceed ( we intreate you ) to the second branch of your Proofe ; since I can hardly belieue , that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church : for if they do , then is the Question at an end , and hath receaued it vttermost tryall , that can be imagined . MICHAEAS . The euent will seale the truth of this point . And first , that immediatly before Luthers reuolt , the Protestant Church was inuisible , Vibanus i Regius ( a markable Protestant ) confesseth so much . But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance , we haue already fully discoursed : and therefore we will ascend to higher times . M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote : We say , k that before the day of Luther , for the space of many hundred yeares , an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth ; and that our Church was not then visible to the world . Caelius Secundus l Curio ( an eminent Protestant ) confesseth no lesse in these words : Factum est , vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit , ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ( ac ne vix quidem ) agnosci potuerint &c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent , and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely ( and indeed not as all ) be knowne of others . D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point , saying : m The Church in the tyme of Bonifac● the third ( which was anno , 607. ) was inuisible , and fleed into wildernes , there to remayne a long season . M. Napper riseth to higher tymes , thus wrytinge : n God hath withdrawne his visible Church , from open assemblyes , to the harts of particular godly men &c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares ; the true Church abiding latent and inuisible : With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. * Brocard , an English Protestant . But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church , for the former tymes only ; but inuolueth more ages therein , thus auer●ing : During o euen the second and third Ages ( meaning after Christ ) the true Church of God and light of the Gospell , was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe . But Sebastianus francus ( a most remarkable Protestant ) ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren , not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility , all the ages since the Apostles , thus wryting : for p certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure ; And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares ( marke the lenght of the tyme ( the Church hath beene no w●eare externall and visible . Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme ( or rather longer ) is likewise made by D. Fulke , in these words : q The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham ( with whom I will heare conclude ) is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles , within the lyke latency , thus wrytinge : The r generall defection of the visible Church ( foretou●d 2. Thessal . 2. ) begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes . Good God. Would any Man hould it possible ( were it not , that their owne books are yet extant ) that such eminent Protestants should confesse ( contrary to the necessary Visibility of Gods true Church , proued out of the Scriptures , & acknowledged by their owne learned Brethren ) their owne Church to haue beene wholy latent and inuisible ; or rather , wholy extinct and annihilated for so many ages together ? But this we must as●rybe ( O God ) to thy holy permission , who , as thou suffered in the tyme of the Old Testamēt , thyne Enemyes to sheath their swords in their brethrens sydes ; so heare tho● permiteest ( for the greater honour of thy Church ) so many learned Protestants ( euen with wounderfull admiration , sweete Iesus ) deadly to wounde their owne Church , fayth , and Religion , with their owne penns . D. REYNOLDS . Forbeare ( Michaeas ) these woundering Interiections , the accustomed Dialect of an vngouerned Passion . I grant , these learned Protestants aboue alledged were of this opinion ; Notwithstanding to confront their authorityes , there may be found many others as learned and iudicious Protestants , as these are , who absolutly mantayne the Visibility of their Church for all ages . And I see no reason , but that the sentences and iudgemēts of these other should preponderate and weighe equally with ) the iudgements of the former Protestants , by you alledged . MICHAEAS . You must pardon me ( M. Doctour ) if I wounder at things , so strangly and vnexpectedly fauling out . But to your solution . I say , it is most defectiue for seuerall reasons . First , because it mainly crosseth the method agreed vpon , amonge vs , in the beginninge of our discourse ; where you tyed your selfe irreph●ably to stand to the iudgments and confession of your owne learned Men. Againe , though you can bringe other Protestants of as greate eminency for learninge , as these by me obiected ; yet except you and the said Protestants will insist in true and confessed Instances of Protestancy , for euery seuerall age ( which is impossible for you to performe . ) your and their asseuerations are to be reputed but naked , verball , and inauayleable . Lastly and principally , your Replye is insufficient , Becaus I heare alledge Protestants confessinge the Inuisibility of their owne Church , to their owne mighty preiudice , and the Catholycks greate aduantage ; And therefore it must needs be , that the racke of Truth forced them ( being otherwyse ingenuous , learned , and iudicious ) to all such Confessions ; Whereas such Protestants , as may be brought to gainsay and contradict the former Confession ( as being men of more spatious and large Consciences ) do spake in their owne cause and behalf ; and therefore as being ready pressed to auere any thinge ( how false soeuer ) for the safery of their Church , are deseruedly to be reputed in their wrytings , more partiall : So as in this case the Words of Tertullian may iustly take place . s Magis fides prou● est , in aduersus somet●psos confitent●● , quam pro 〈◊〉 ●egantes . NEVSERVS . I lyke well [ Michaeas ] the reason of your disparity , geuen touching some Protestants confessing against themselfs , and others affirming the contrary ; to their owne aduantage . OCHINVS . The difference set downe by you is most foreible : for no doubte the open Confession of one learned Aduersary , is to ouerballance twenty denying the same , euen for that peculiar reason aboue mentioned . D. REYNOLDS . Michaeas Suppose for the tyme , that we could not proue our Churches perpetuali Visibility : yet seinge you are not able , ( if you were pressed thereto ) to iustify and make good the Visibility of your owne Roman Church , during all the ages since the Apostles dayes . Therefore looke into what danger , through our confessed Inuisibility , we may be presumed to tune , within the same we may justly includ you : And thus you owne argument rebucts vpon your selfe . MICHAEAS . Heare I see [ M. D. ] that for meare want of positiue arguments , to support your owne Church , you are lastly fled to picke quarrells at our Church ; as if it were a iustification of yourselfs , that wee Catholycks did labour with your infirmities ; lyke men , who reioyce to haue compartuers in misery . But to your point vrged . say it is impertinent to the whole drift of our dispute , which was only , touching the want of Visibility in the Protestant Church ; which alone to proue , was by me vndertaken ; the visibilitye of the Catholycke Church comminge in incidently ; lyke as a discours of vice doth often in the End ; biget some specches of Vertue ; our Contrary being thus brought to our remembrance , by meanes of the other Contrary . But because [ M. D. ] you shall discouer no tergiuersation in vs herein , and that here to entreate of the continuall Visibility of our Catholycke Church , violateth our former imposed method : Therefore I will pawne my credit , that there shal be left with you certaine t prouffs , con●ayninge the expresse and confessed Visibility of our Roman Church , from the Apostles to these dayes ; And this by the acknowledgment of sundry learned Protestants ; though heare by the way , I must tell you , that the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church , during so many former Ages , doth potentially and vertually include the proufe of the Visibility of our Roman Church , during the said ages : Seing the Inuisibility of your Church ( for so longe a tyme ) is ascribed by you Protestants ( as appeareth by many of the former Protestants testimonyes ) to be the worke of Antichtist ; ( you meaninge thereby , the Pope , and the Church of Rome ) therefore it ineuitably followeth , from your owne Primisses , that Popes and the Church of Rome haue euer beene visible , during all the said former Ages and Centuryes . OCHINVS . Newserus , I would haue a word or two with you in priuate ; therefore if it please you , let vs walke a little a part . NEVSERVS . I am willingthereto : go into the next roome , and I will follow you , OCHINVS . You see here [ Neuserus ] how this Question of the Protestant Churches visibility hath bene discussed and argued : And I must consesse , that [ Michaeas ] hath euen in replicably demonstrated , that the Protestant Church hath ( at least for many ages ) bene inuisible , or rather extinct : you see also , how royatous and abounding the old Testament●s in prophecyes , and other testimonies , that the Church in the daye , of the true Messias , shal be at all cy●res , most conspicuous and visible . Therefore what resteth , but that eyther we must reiect the old Testament ( which I neuer will do ) for falsly prophetying of the state of the Church ; Or els we must denye , that these tymes of the new Testament , are the tymes of Grace ; & that the Church erected by Christ and his Apostles ( as wanting the accomplishment of the foresayd predictions ) is the true Church ? which later poynt , I hould to be more probable . NEVSERVS . You haue preuented me [ Ochinus ] in tyme of speaking , but not in iudgment . For to confesse the truth , after I had obserued the weaknes of the Instances alledged ( though alledged by the Doctour , with as much Scholarlike Art , and aduantage , as might be ) my houering thoughts transported my iudgment to this your Center . Which though it be enuironed with difficultyes , yet I hould it the more safe way with you ( since the one must necessarily be reiected as false and erroneous , they so diametrically crossing one the other ) to retayne our former reuerence to the old Testament , and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New. And therefore , let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour , to acquaint them , with this our finall resolution . OCHINVS . Michaeas , and M. Doctour . My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules , passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference . And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons , in disprouall of your instances & of our owne former euading answeres : And our Conclusion is , that we both assure our selfs , that the Protestāt Church had neuer any visible existence , for these many last seuerall ages , at the least : And in deed ( I confesse ) when I do u consider , how Christ by his power , wisdome , and goodnes , had established and founded his Church , washed it with his bloud , and enriched it with his spirit ; and discerning how the same is ( funditus auersa ) vtterly ouerthrowne , I cannot but wonder ; and being desirous to know the cause , I find , there haue bene Popes , who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church . Here you haue my ceusure , accompanyed with the true Reason thereof . NEVSERVS . I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus , mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments . And yet I hope , this is no blemish eyther to you ( M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt ) nor to our selfs , but only to the weaknes of our cause : for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable , ( and among them , rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church ( that neyther learning , Art , or the bestfiled words ( which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity ) are able to set a good gayne vpon them . Therefore [ Michaeas ] to be snort , in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible , Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours . MICHAEAS . I much reioyce thereat , and I hope ( notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches ) that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition , for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth : since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe , a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church ; which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility . OCHINVS . Stay [ Michaeas ] Not so . You are ouer hasty ; your praē is as yet not gotten ; and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore ; first , that touching your Church ( at the stear●e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit ) we hould it not ( as aboue we protested ) to be the Church of God ; And then it mat●reth nothing with vs , whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being , bene visible , or no For though we teach , that the true Church must euer be visible ; yet we teach not conuertibly , that what Church hath euer bene visible , the same is the true Church , Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour , take both you notize , that the confessed want of a continuall visibility , and of the administration of the word and Sacraments , ministreth to vs a great suspicion , whether the Church of Christ , be that Church of God , which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament ; and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World. For if he had so been , doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse ( for so the true Church of God is ) after his departure from hence . NEVSERVS . What Ochinus●ath ●ath deliuered ( though perhapps with amazement to you both ) I do here iustify . And as it is euident , that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church : So we must needs rest doubtfull ( at the least ) through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions , whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World , which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law ; And whether he had true authority to erect this Church , of which he hath made himselfe Head ●or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit , touching the Messias and his Church , are infallibly to be performed in the Messias & his Church . MICHAEAS . How now my Maysters ? Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility ? Tends your approbation of my former discours to this ? Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours ? Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer , because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion , latitude , and continuall visibility of the Church of God , are not performed in the Protestant Church ? And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all , because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes , as your selfs would haue them ? Take heed ; do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions , charactered in your soules , at your Baptisme ; neyther now di●auo●● your ( then taken ) first now . O mercifull God ; how ignorant are you in these matters ? And then more miserably ignorant , it that partly through learning you are become ignorant . Do you thinke to honour the Father , by d●shonoring the Sonne ; euen that Sonne , in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment ? x Hic est filius meus dilectus , in quo mihi complacui . Certayne it is , that if you perseuer in iudgment , as your words import , you deny him for your Sauiour , who had a Father without a Mother ; a Mother without a Father : The first argued his Diuinity ; the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity . * Quod de Deo profectum est , 〈…〉 eus est , & Dei Filius & Vnus Ambo. You deny him , whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature , as that the earth did then ( contrary to it accustomed manner ) euen power it influence vpon Heauens ; To be shor● , you deny him , who gaue y himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all , who tasted z death for all ; who a tooke away the sinnes of the World ; and finally who was Sauiour b of the world , and reconciliation c for our sinnes : In the tyme of whose Passion , death did euen ●eui●e , and Eclips did enlighten : Lux d in tenebris lucet , & tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt . But why labour I , to celebrate his byrth , who is from all eternity , or to performe his exequies , who cannot dye ; e Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur . And by you assured , that who contemne Christ , the Redeemer of all flesh , must needs contemne God , the Authour of all flesh . And where you call the Pope : that Romish Antichrist ; see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne ( is seems ) that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come ; How can the Pope then ( by your doctrine ) be Antichrist ; since Antichrist ( you know ) is to come after ( not before ) the true Christ ? Againe for prouffe , that the Pope is Antichrist , you ( no doubt ) will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New * Testament : And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you , to proue , that Christ is the true Messias ? OCHINVS . Tush ( Michaeas ) This is but your Oratorye . Wee say the Prophecies of the old Testament ( of which we haue set downe so great store ) are infallibly to be performed ; We find they are not performed in Christ Church : How then can we beleiue in Christ , as our true Messias and Redemer , or rep●te his Church , for the true Church of God ? And where you ( Michaeas ) replye , that the said Prophecyes are accomplished in your Popish Church , that forceth nothing : since we are assured , that that your Church is a superstitious and idolatrous Church , and wholy alienated from the Couenant of God. Therefore briefly touching my self , I openly say , I do expect an other f Messias , an other Redemer : And I do not acknowledg your Christ to be the second Person of the Trinity : And therefore I do hould , that the Old Law being in force , Circumcision is to beretayned . NEWSERVS . Michaeas , the streame of the tymes ought not to beare downe the Truth . Therefore seing in the Church of Christ , the Predictions of the Prophetts ( aboue by Ochinus and my self fully alledged ) touching the enlargment , the vninterupted Visibility , and the incessant administration of the Word and Sacraments are not performed : I here pronounce , that g Christ was not the true Messias , but aseducer ; and that his Church is not the Church of God. And more particulary for my self ( as continuing for euer in this my sentence ) I am resolued to goe to Constantinople : and there ( as now beleuing in the law of Moyses ) I wil be circumcized . Therefore ( Micheas ) content yourself , and forbeare all further vehemency of speach against vs : in●o which afore you did begin to enter ; but show in you● words greater temperanee and Patience . MICHAEAS . Patience Peace Pr●digious men . It is heare a Vertue , to transgresse all bonds of Patience ; and but stupiditie ▪ not to be angry . You Miscreants , vnworthy to breath , since you deny hym , through whom you breath ; and vnwothy to enioye a being , since you reiect hym , who gaue you your Being presumptious Clay , that d●●est thus contest with thy maker . Thinke you my Words shal be slowe , in defence of hym , who is the Word : h 〈◊〉 Verbum care factum est , & habita●t in nobis ? No. I must speake . I will speake . Neuer ( neuer ) shall my eares be guilty of my Redemers blasphemies , but that my Tonge to it vttermost power shall replye ( and in this feruour keepe me , sweete Iesus , to my last gaspe ) And I wil be ready to trumpet ●orth t●e disgrace and ignominye of you both , throughout all Christendum Call you your former Religion : The light of the Gospell , which finally tendeth to put out the Light it selfe ? erat lux i vera , quae illuminat ●mnem hominem . O that I had one of the coales of the holy ●ltar of God , to seare your blafphemous tongues , as the k Seraphin by taking one of the coales thereof , did purify the lipps of the Prophet Esay ▪ ô impiety of tymes , in which such Munsters are bred ; worthy for feare of infecting others , to be eliminated out of the Society of Men , and to be relegated vnto some desart or Wildernes ; there to conuerse with Beasts since in sauadgnes of Nature you excede beasts ▪ you Batteyd Infidells , that cannot endure the light of the Sun , * orietur Sol Iustitiae : vnder what name do you expect Saluation ; Since l there is not any other name vnder heauen , giuen vnto Men ( then tha● of Iesus ) wherein we must be saued ? Cannot the Prophecyes of the Old Testament ( vpon which in other poynts , you seeme so much to relye ) touching so many particularities of our Sauiours Birth , Lyfe , Passion , and Resurrection ( the due consideration m of all which , I acknowledg , first made me a Christian ▪ ) preuayle with you , to confesse him for your Red●mer ? Since all those particulars were to be performed only in the true Messias ▪ and all of them haue beene actually performed in hym , whom now you refuse . The patration of infinit stupendious Mirac●es , exhibited not only by Iesus himselfe , but by his Apostles and seruants , may be able ( I should thinke being truly weighed ) to wash out this blot of your Infidelitie , and to ●yle away the rust of this your misbel●ife . ô England , blushest not thou , that after thy casting of thy primatiue fayth , Ocb●nus was the Apostle , by whose meanes and labour thou first did such Protestancy ? Is this he , whose presence n in those day●s is said to make thee happy ; and whose absence vnfortunate ; and * whom all Italy could not equall ? See ( to thy dishonour , and his perdition ) what he is become : A Iew , a Turke , an Aposta●a , forsaking Christ and all Christianity and teaching Circumcition and polygamy or plurali●ye of wyfes ; a doctrine , where Sensuality diminisheth the pleasure of sence . And thou He●delberg ( at this present honored , by hauinge trans-planted in thee , so fayre a Rose ou● of the English garden ) Behould here once thy cheif Pastour Neuserus ( and now confessedly a cheife instrument of the deuill ) from whome , as from one ( by supposall ) peculiarly illuminated by the Lord , thou hearetofor● dist receaue thy spirituall nurrishmēt ; Who●e Superintendency ( forsooth ) is not afrayd in the ●●d , openly to blaspheme against the Sauiou● of the World , and to turne Turke ; and who hauing an vncircumcized hart , will needs carye about with hym a circumcized body . And Celebrious Oxford ( the good●●est skryne of the Muses , vnder the Sunne ) how canst thou brooke , that such impure Imps , as these , should breath thy pure ayre ? Or can thy worthy and noble Sonns ( eminently endued with all good lettars ) endure the sight of these Infide●ls ? Hadst thou afore bene perswaded , that these two Monsters ( whose very Soules and bodyes Mans goastly Enemy seemes of late to organize ) would haue ●●ulne into these blasphemyes , no doubt thou wouldest &c. D. REYNOLDS . Stay [ Michaeas ] Proceede no further . You haue spoken enough . And I much commend your Christian feruour herein : And I confesse , it gaulingly vpbraids me , to see any of my owne Religion , thus to apostatate from the fayth of Christ . And it is no small greife , that this disputation first intended , to make one Papist a good Protestant , hath in lieu thereof made two Protestants , two Iewes or Turks . But yet [ Michaeas ] let not the seueritie of your Censure pase further , then the fault extendeth . It is only Ochinus and Neuserus ( and two , though too many , in reference to seuerall thousands , is scare reputed a number ) who thus sinne . Let not then the Gospell it selfe , or any other Professours of it , be insimulated by you within this atrocity and Cryme . And you O●hinus and Neuserus . ô soyle not your selfs with this so foule an imputation . But seing Wisdome only iudgeth of Wisdome , and learning of learning ; so let your learning and Wisdome equally runne together , to acknowledg him for your Redemer , who is the source of all Wisdome , learning and knowledge : de o plenitudin● eius omnes accepimus . your Sinne is most heinous and dreadfull ; yet being attended hereafter with a true remorse and repentance , is remissible ; and for your conforts remember that Paull the Apostle ( who once persecuted hym , whom you now deny ) did expiate the sinnes of Saule the Publican . MICHAEAS . M. Doctour you do well , and like a Christian Doctour , to endeauour to re●all home these two wretches . Yet touching the paucity of Protestanticall Apostates by you pretended ; it seem●s , your Memory wrongs your Reading . For it is a vast vntruth to affirme , that only Ochinus and Neuserus haue reuolted to Turcisme and Iuda●sme . For did not Dauid George ( a cheife Protestant , and once Professour ) p at Basil ) become a blasphemous Apostata ? who affirming our Sauiour to be a seducer , and grounding himselfe ( with Ochinus & N●user●s ) vpon the not accōplishment of the Prophesyes of the Churches visibility , in the Protestant Church , thus writeth : q Si Christi & Ap●stolor●an doctrina vera & perfecta fuisset &c. If the doctrine of Chr●st and his Apostles had bene true a●d perfect , the Church , which they had planted , should haue cont●nued &c. But now it is manifest , that Antichrisi hath subuerted the doctrine of the Apostles , and the Church by them begunne &c. therefore the doctrine of the Apostles was false and imperfect . Thus that imp●ous Iew ▪ And was not Alamannus , a Swinglian , and once most r familiar with Beza ? who , perswading himselfe , that the prophecyes touching the continuall vis●bility of the Church , were not performed in Christ his Chu●ch , because he saw they were not performed in the Protestant Church , did thereupon renounce Christianity and became a blasphemious Iew : a point so euident , that Beza himselfe ( notwithstanding their former inwardnes and friendship ) thus writeth of him : s Alamanum affirmant ad ●uda●smum d●fecisse . Did not Georgius Paulus t ( minister of Cracouia ) deny the Trinity with the Turkes ? In like sort Conefius , and Laelius Socinus ( a schollar in the schoole of Geneua ( who writ whole books against the B. Tri●ity ) vpon the former grounds forsooke the Christian fayth . And this Socinus ( as Beza u witnes●eth ) so at the first corrupted the first chapter of S. ●ohn his Ghospell ( which speaketh so plain●ly of Christ ) as that , Beza saith of him : mih● quidem videtur omnes corrup●ores longè superasse . In like sort Andreas V●lanus x ( a great Caluinis● ) not only became in the end a Turke , but infected many others with his wrytings , agaynst the Ble●s●ed Trinity and Christian fayth . But if you haue a desire to r●ede of more Protestants , who became Turkes and Iewes , as presuming , that the former Prophecyes were not performed in the Church of God , I referre you to a booke , to which I thinke you are no stranger ; I meane to that most elaborate and mother-booke ( for it hath giuen byrth to diuers others ) written by your owne brother , M. William Reynolds , and called Caluino y Turcismus . You may also to the same end , perusē Conradus z Slussenberg and Osiander a ( both Protestants ) where I presume , your stomacke wil be soone gluted , with the displeasing gust of diuers others there related . And now in the through of these examples , my thoughts are caried to Sebastian Castalio ( once Professour at Basill ) And one highly extolled by your owne D. Humfrey b and others . This Castalio , though he went not so fare as by open breach and Apostasy to leaue the fayth of Christ ; yet in regard that the former predictions touching the spreading of Christs Church ; and the euer vneclipsed conspituity of it , were not ( in his iudgment ) performed in Christ Church , he writeth very perplexedly hereof , to King Edward the sixt in this Maner : Equidem c aut h●c futura f 〈…〉 endum est &c. Truly it is to be confessed , that these predictions are either to be performed hereafter ; or haue bene allredy ; or that otherwyse God is to be accused of lyinge . Yf it be said , they haue bene allready accomplished . I aske of hym , When ? Yf he answeare in the Apostles dayes ; I demand then , how it happeneth , that neith●r then the knowledg of God was wholy perfect , and why it so soone vanished away ; which was promised to be eternall , and more abundant , then the floudds of the Sea ? And then without saluing this his difficulty , he finally thus dowbtfully concludeth : Quo magis libros sacros considero , eo minus hactenus praestitum video , vtcumque oracula illa intelligas : The more ●peruse the Scriptures , the lesse do I find the same performed , howsoeuer you vnderstand the said Prophecies . See with what a fearefull and wauering trepitation of iudgment , this learned Caluinist writeth of this point ; through his false supposall , that the Catholycke Church is not the Church of God ; but cheiffly through his true acknowledgment , that the former Prophecies were not performed in the Protestant Church . And thus far of these Examples . But if you will haue a censure , whether any Protestants ( or rather Caluinists ) turne Arians or no ( who as denying the most Blessed Trinity , are litle bettar , then Turks or Iewes ) I will giue it in this Neuserus his owne words ( and if I wrong hym herein , let hym now before you charge me . ) who thus hath left written : None d is knowne in our tyme to be made an Arian , who was not a Caluinist , as Seruetus , Blandrata , Paulus Alchianus , Gentilis , Gebraldus , Siluanus and others ; therefore who feareth to faule into Arianisme , let hym take heede of Caluinisme . Thus you Neuserus : so certaine it is that Arianisme , Turcisme , and Iudaisme , are the last sublimations of Caluinisme . Well M. Doctour . I am cloyed with the society of this discours , and can hardly endure any longer with patience , the sight of these two Wretches , belcking forth such horrible poyson ; And therefore I will now leaue you , and perhapps instātly after ( vpon some vrgent occasions ) leaue England . I could haue wished , that this our Dispute had made a deeper impression in you , then I feare it hath , for your incorporating into the Catholicke Church : Neuer the lesse , I will pray to God , that before your dissolution , you may be more solicitous and carefull in this so great a matter , which concerns your Soules happines or infelicity for all eternity . Touching my selfe , I do ingeniously protest , that now by meanes of this discours , I seeing the weaknes of all that , which may be vrged by the learnedest Protestants , in defence of this Churches visibility , am become hereby more setled and strenghtned in the Catholicke fayth and Religion , then afore I was ; if more I can be . But now before I end , I cannot but put you in mind [ M. Doctour ] how fouly you were ouertaken in your defence e of this impious Ochinus , for his writing against the sacrifice of the Masse : where you may well see , that to deny the sacrifice , which was first instituted by our Sauiour , is a fitting preparation towards the after denyall of our Sauiour himselfe . D. REYNOLDS . I must confesse [ Michaeas ] that notwithstanding whatsoehath bene sayd in this discourse , I still remayne a member of the Protestant Church ; assuring my selfe , it is the true Church of Christ . Touching my defence of Ochinus his wryting , I did it out of my conscience ; and my conscience ( I trust ) will warrant it , at the last day . For your present departure , I am agreiued , we shall losse you so soone ; Only I would entreate you , to haue in your discourses ( wheresoeuer , you shall hereafter come ) a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church , & of all the true and constant members thereof . And herewith [ Worthy , Michaeas ; ] I take my last farewell . MICHAEAS . M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake , answerably to your desarts ; Nobly , and with great respect : Since you are a Man , whose barke is richly fraught , with learning & Morality . And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute , I do wholy ascribe them , to your want of a good cause , not to your want of good parts . And if there haue bene any words misplaced by , vs on eyther syde , s●t the thought of them vanish away : since they were spoken Antagonistice● , and in hea●e of disputation ; And so in all kindnes & Christian charity , I leaue you , with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church : As for you two ( fagotts of Hell-fire ) I grant my eyes euen sparkle forth●r●ge in behoulding of you ; And I account ( contrary to the place of the burning f bush ) the place , wherin you stand , to be cursed ground . ●or since your Sunne is so f●rie of you ( I meane , your excepted false Messias ) what can you looke , but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation ? Therefore I will take leaue with you , in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas , the Magitian ( and what greater Magicke , then for one to be encha●ted to beleiue , that Christ is a se●ucer ? ) O * you full of all subtilty and mischeife , the Sonns of the Deuill , enemyes of all iustice , who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord : Adieu . OCHINVS . You enioy [ Michaeas ] the liberty of your Tongue ; but ●age you well . NEVSERVS . Let him go : I will nor take leaue with him : such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS . Now [ M. Doctour ] Michaeas is gonne ; And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs , without feare of being ouerheard . I know , that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas , but your selfe also , rest much disedisyed at our ab●enunciation of Christianity . But [ M. Doctour ] come to the point . We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament ( which must euer remayne sacred , permanent , and 〈…〉 uiolable ) do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias , must euer be visible , knowne , and conspicuous , and must in all ages without any intermission , enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments : And this is abundantly confessed , not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation , but by all learned men whosoeuer . We now ( notwithstanding such necessity therof ) cannot but confesse , that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ , at le●st in the Protestant Church : how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias , which is so gloriously deliuea●ed with the penalls of the Prophets ? Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises , then that the Church of Christ ( as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles ) is not the true Church of God ; and consequently , that Christ is the true Messias & Sauiour of the World ? except we will grant ( which I neuer will ) the Papists Church ( as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it ) to be the sole Church of God. Therefore so farre , as toucheth my selfe , I do renounce my former Christian fayth , and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses ; and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion , I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision , and will instantly write a g booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues ; aunciently practized by the ●ewes in the old Testament ; though now by Christians houlden , as vnlawfull and altogether pro●●ibited . NEVSERVS . By the Lord of Heauen , I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued , then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament ; or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church , which my Soule abhorrs to do . For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church , It cannot be made good , notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words : And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards ( through which wee spooke to Michaeas ) and plainly confese the truth herein . And here [ M. D. ] to take a short view of all the discours passed , and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs ; We cannot but obserue , that the Exemples produced by you , were most insufficient ; first , because they were no Protestants at all : Secondly , in that admitting them for Protestants , they but only serue ( as Michaeas well noted ) to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes ; neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake , any one confessed Example of Protestancy , for the space of six hundred yeers at the least . Againe , when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued , that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen ; I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe ; and all for the sauing of our Churches honour . As first , to pretend ( though God knowes , a silly pretence ) that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny , vtterly extinct . That fayling , then we made show ( for in our priuat iudgments , we could not really thinke it ) That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent , in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution . That playne answere not seruinge , then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution , in a certaine obscure and darke sentence : to wit , That the Church was in the Papacy ; the Papacy in the Church , and yet the Church was not the Papacy : a forme of words ( as Mich●as truly ●●id forged by vs Protestants , only to cast a ●yst in the eyes of the vnlearned . The next we fled ( for our surest , but indeed sham full refuge ) vnto the Scripture , pretending our Church to be consonant to it , and therefore euer visible ; a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke . After all which ( if you remember M. D. ) your selfe did politikly touch vpō that opinion ( though not with any greate approbation of it ) which , for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine , teacheth , that the Papists Church and Ours are all one . But did you marke , how Michaeas neuer ceased , till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales ; be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing , from our owne learned Mens penns , the mayne question now controuerted among vs ? Now [ M. D. ] seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church ( though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes ) I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus , and ame determined to haue this Country ; from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate ; h where I will drawe the preachers to embrace my doctryne ; will procure priuate correspondency with some Turkish Pryests ; will labour with all diligence to spreade the Turkish Religion in Germany ; and finally will go to Constantinople , and there I wil be Circumcized . D. REYNOLDS . O God vnto what miserable and strange tymes hast thou reserued me , to se Christ thus abandoned by Christians , and embraced by Iewes ? And what horrid and dreadfull resolutions are these comming from our owne bosome aduersaries ? Alas , Ochinus and Neuserus , thinke what schandall it wil be to the Gospell , when it shal be truly rumored , that such men ( as your selfs ) are Enemyes of the Gospell . And what will many graue Protestants ( and particulary the most learned Beza ) speake of you , for this your most infamous reuolt ? sweet Iesus , that ●ewes and Heathens should fynd light in darknes , and Christians darknes in light ! You both say you will not acknowledge the Church of Rome , to be the true Church of God. Be it so . Yet are the Professours of it , Christians . And will you therefore abandon Christ Iesus , out of your malignity to them ? ô no. A bad Christian is better , then no Christian ; as a dime sight is better , then to be stone blynd . You demande , how can the Church of Christ be the true Church , when the Predictions of the Prophetts touching it , are not performed in it ? Who knoweth , they are not performed in it ? Yf you aske by whome , were they performed ? Where ? and at what tymes ? Remember that these are but Circumstances of the busines ; and it is a receaued Axiome , that : Aliquando constat dere , quando non constat de modorei . And how all these things may be reconciled , is a Mystery sealed vp ( perhapps ) by God from our knowledge , for our greater Humili●ie . But to come to an end . Seeing you both are so obstinately headlong ( as if you were weary or ashamed of the Christian fayth ) to embrace Iudaisme ; I cannot but say , that I do much prefer Michaeas , before you both ( for a Iew being made a Christian , is much more noble , then a Christian , who intende to be a Iew ) and I do from henceforth forbid all entercours , and as sotiation with you . Therefore fare you well , Both ; only for this foule misnap of yours , I can but euaporate my greife out into sights , and weepe ; because in neither of you , I can see teares of remorse . OCHINVS . Wee thanke you [ M. D. ] for your freindly admonitions , though they haue no working influence ouer vs. And where you vrge , that Protestāts will speake fowly of this my change : I answeare , let any of them , or Beza himselfe ( in whom you peculiarly insist ) shower downe reproches vpon me ; as that , I am a i secret fauorer of the Arians ; that I am a defendour of Polygamy ; that I am a derider of all articles of Christian Religion ; Yea let hym playnly and bluntly style me ; an impure k Apostata ; All this sweighs nothing with me ; for I do glory to suffer opprobry and disgrace , in defence of the auncient Iewish Religion . But come Neuserus ; let vs begonne . And thus [ M. D. ] I leaue you , and commit you to the tuition of the Highest . NEVSERVS . Farewell , good M. Doctour , and the Lord of Heauen illuminate the eyes of all those , who remayne yet blinded . D. REYNOLDS . Gentillmen , once more I leaue you to God : Who at his pleasure , is able to mollify , the most stonye ha●t . FINIS . GOD SAVE THE KING . THE CONCLVSION . HEARE now ( Worthy Academicks ) is my penne come to it full stop , and our seconde Dialogue to it last Period : Where you haue seene the true and vnfeigned downe fall of the two former Protestants , Ochinus and Neuserus : and the stumbling block , occasioning this their miserable precipitation . Yf any of you do reape profit hereby ( and I hope you may , if you vouchsafe to peruse it with Ind●sterency ) ô how fully then is my labour recompensed ? As for those , who out of an affected morosity , do detractiuely preiudge of our labours in this kind : and through their owne inueterate auersiō to the Catholicke faith , do betrample with all scorne and indignation our best endeuours ( though I hope , few or no such spydars do breede in your Colledges ) I pryze not their Censures ; only I do , and still will pray incessantly to God , to giue them more supple and docible harts ; with whom wee may perhapps truly expostulate in the Psalmists phraza : Filij a hominum , vsque quo graut corde ? Peruse ( learned Men ) the authorityes and reasons here aboue alledged ; and deuyde in your iudgments , what is here seigned by way of interlocution from that , in which I really and forcebly insist ; and then make in the secrets of your soules , a reflection vpon your owne Religion . And that you may more warrantably proceede therein I will here proue ( though but breifly ) the visibility of our Catholycke Church , during all those ages , in which your Protestant Church is aboue acknowledged to lye latent , or rather not to be at all : a poynt ( if you remember ) of which Michaeas promised to leaue behynd him , some proufs . 1. This then I proue seuerall wayes . And first , from the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church , during all former ages till Luthers insurrection ( if so we take Luther for a Protestant ) For seeing euer since the Apostles dayes , there hath bene a visible Church of Christ in the World ( as all Ecclesiasticall Historyes , Chronicles , and Antiquityes do irrefragably conuince ) And seing that by the Confessions of all sydes , there hath beene no other Church of Christians visibly in being all these tymes , but either the Catholycke Church or the Protestant Church ( For as for the Arians , and other Heretycks , they continued only for certaine ages ) And lastly , seeing it is acknowledged aboue by so many learned Protestants , and otherwyse also proued by many vnanswerable arguments , that the Protestant Church hath not beene visible for so many ages till Luthers appearing : Therefore it inauoydably followeth , that the Catholycke Church is that Church , which hath euer bene visible and knowne to the World during all that long space of tyme : And the rather , seeing the learned Protestants confese ( as aboue is shewed ) that all the former Inuisibility of the Protestant Church was wrought by the labour , power , & diligence of the Catholicke Roman Chuch now how could the Roman Church effect so much for so long a tyme , except it selfe during al that tyme , were most visible ? 2. Secondly , I proue the same poynt from the acknowledged succession of Pastours in our Catholycke Church , euer since the Apostles . Which euer visible succession of Pastours necessarily includeth in it selfe the euer visibility of the Catholycke Church : those visible Pastours being the visible and most eminent members of the said Church ; and preaching and instructing others : who euen in this respect must become also visible and knowne . Now that the Catholicke Roman Church hath ever enioyed this visible sucession of Pastours , is confirmed from the wrytings of the Centurists in their seuerall Centuryes : their relating of which poynt being a Principall part and subiect of that their so much commended Work ; A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes , as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words : You can b name the notable personages in all ages ( obserue these words : in all ages ) and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order , and vpon your fingars . Thus D. Fulke . 3. Thirdly , We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility , during the first six hundred years after Christ ( and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church ) by taking a view in generall , how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants ; who indeed ( dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein ) do absolu●ly reiect them , as inexcusable and grosse Papists . For as for these last thousand yeares ; It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer ; that our Church hath bene most visible , tyrannyzing ( they say ) ouer the true Church , for so many ages . And according hereto M Powell c sayth : From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue , the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous . But to proceede . If the most auncient & most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church , ( I meane , Ignatius , Dionysius Areopagita , Iustinus , Ireneus , Tertul●an , Origen , Cyprian , Athanasius , Hilarius , the Cyrills , the Gregoryes . Ambrose , Basill , Optatus , Gaudentius Chrysostome , Ierome , Austin , and diuers others ) be accounted by our aduersaryes , most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth ; then followeth it ineuitably , that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes : since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church ; and then consequently the Church ( whereof they were Pastours ) must needs be visible . That these primatiue Fathers were Papists ( as our Aduersaryes tearme vs ) appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following ; which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes . And first , Peter Martyr d thus confesseth of this point : As long as we insist in the Fathers , so long we shal be conuersant in their errours . Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers : Euen e in the best tymes ( meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church ) the ambition , ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such , as the very blind may easily perceaue , that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells . D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren : How f greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church & Latin also , for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill , of merit , of Innocation of Saints , and such like ? meaning such like Catholicke doctrines . Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers , who thus confesseth : g Presently from the beginning of the Church ( that is , presently after Christ his Ascension ) the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth , increased ceremonyes , and deuised peculiar Worshipps . But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene , who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words : The Fathers h for so many ages ( meaning after the Apostles ) haue bene blind , and most ignorant in the Scriptures : They haue erred all their lifetyme ; and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths , they were neither Saincts , nor pertayning to the Church . Thus Luther ; And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church ; and consequently , that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes . 4. Fourthly , The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued , from that , the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth , since it first plantation by the Apostles . Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion ; & if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes ; and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth ; then followeth it demonstratiuely , that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome , euer since the Apostles : and consequently , that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes . To proue , that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes , I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly , our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true & vndoubred , euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary , who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much . And here I am to craue pardon , if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants , aboue produced in this Dialogue ; Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages ; so here also diuers of them prooue ( so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other ) a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church , during the said tymes . To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point , touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church ; I will ascend vp by degrees euen to ( and within ) the Apostles dayes : And this , because some Protestants ( as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings ( do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility , then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow . First then M Parkins thus sayth : i During the space of nyne hundred yeares , the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth . This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander ; all which do in euery of the Centuryes ( from S. Gregories tyme to Luther ) name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops , and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth , according to the Century or age , wherin eich of them liued . But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme , thus saying : k The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope S●luester and the Emperour Constantyn , for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares . And also againe : l from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes , euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres , the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein ; for thus he witnesseth : During m euen the second and third ages , the true temple of God and light of the Gospell , was obscured by the Roman Antichrist . Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles ; thus wrytinge : Presently n after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe &c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist , the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away , presently after the Apostles departure . With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth , thus saying : The o true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes . Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church ; then may we infer , that the Church of Rome and it fayth ( as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour , the false Church ) was visible immediatly after the Apostles . With D. Fulke agreeth Peter Martyr thus writing : Errours p did beginne in the Church presently after the Apostles tymes ; Peter Martyr heere vnderstanding by the word : Errours , our Catholycke doctrins , with these three last Protestants , the Authour of the booke called Antichristus , q siue pronosticon finis Mundi ( a Protestant ) thus iumpeth : from the Apostles tymes till Luther , the Gospell had neuer open passage . Now this hinderance of the Gospell is supposed by hym , to proceede from the Pope and Church of Rome ; therefore during all those tymes the Church of Rome hath beene visible . But D Downham confesseth more freely herof , who doth include the very tymes of the Apostles with in the Visibility of the Catholycke Roman Church , thus r teaching : the generall defection of the Visible Church ( foretould 2. Thessol . 2. ) begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes , he meaning hereby , that the Visibility of our Catholicke Church did obscure in the Apostles dayes , the Visibility of his Protestant Church . From this Doctours sentence Hospinian s ( the Protestant ) litle dissenteth , who speaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist , thus writeth : I am tum primo illo saeculo , viuentibus adhuc apostolis &c. Euen the very first age ( the Apostles being aliue ) the deuill endeuored to deceaue more about this Sacrament , then aboute Baptisme ; with drawing Men from the first forme thereof . Thus ( iudicious Men ) you may fully see how visible at all tymes our Catholy●ke Church hath beene ; And of this Veritie you may be more fully assured , not only ( by fiction ) from the discourse of Michaeas , the Conuerted Iew ; but euen from Michaeas , The Prophetical Iew ; Whose praediction of the amplitude and euer conspi●uitie of Christs Church ( and consequently of our Catholycke Church ) is set downe in these words : In * nouissimo di erum erit mons domus Domini praeparatus in vertice montium , & sublimis super colles ; & fluent ad cum Populi ; Et properabunt gentes multae , & dicent : Venite ascendamus ad montem Domini , & ad domum Dei Iacob ; & docebit nos de vijs suis , at ibimus in semitis ●ius . Which Prophecy , as it hath beene hitherto fully accomplished in the present Roman Church ; so on the other syde , how vnaptly ( indeed , how falsly ) it can be applyed to a Conuenticle of Christians , which is confessed ( for many more yeres , then a thousand ) to haue bene wholy latent and Inuisible ( or rather vtterly extinguished ) I leaue to your Candour and impartialitie to censure . But before I take my leaue with you for this tyme , ( most excellent Men ) I will cast my eye back vpon the Premisses in grose , discussed in this Treatise . Yf then it be so ( as is aboue manifested ) that the Church of God must at all tymes be resplendent and visible : If she must euer enioy the administration of the Word and Sacraments by the ministery of her Doctours and Pastours without any interruption ; and this with such an imposed Necessity , as that the being * of them constituteth a Church , the want of them destroyeth it . Yf we all be bownd vnder payne of eternall damnation , to incorporate our selfs into that Church , which is beutifyed and enriched with the former spirituall endowments ; and to auoyde all such Societyes of Men , wherein they are wanting ; seing only the members of Christs true Church are capable of Saluation : Yf finally our Catholycke and Roman Church , on the one syde , by the frequent Confessions of our learned Aduersaryes ( besids oll other proofs thereof ) hath alwayes enioyed the said priuiledges of Visibility , and administration of the Word and Sacraments ; And the Protestant Church on the other syde ( euen by their owne lyke acknowledgments ) hath bene for many Centuryes and ages , wholy distitute and depryued of these spirituall graces , and ( as I may tearme them ) Immunityes . What stupor then and dulnes of mynd , or rather what Letargious constitution of the Soule ( forgetfull of it owne well fare ) possesseth so infinit Men at this day ; as to deuyde themselfs from our said Catholycke Church euen in greate hostility ; and in lien thereof , to be ranged with particular and nouelizing Conuenticles ? The consideration whereof ( most iudicious Men ) though I looke not to be of that weigh with you , as to moue you actually to implant your selfs in our Catholicke Church ; yet since you are wyse , learned , and loth ( no dowbt ) to commit any such explorate errours , as the force of Naturall Reason and your owne Consciences may freely check ; I am in good hope , that the serious perusall of the poynts aboue disputed , will at least preuayle thus far with diuers of you ; as that you will not be ready hereafter in your discourses , so tragically to enueigh and declame against a Religion , which is fortyfied which such impugnable and irrefragable proufs , as our Catholycke fayth ( euen from our owne Aduersaryes mouths ) is euicted to bee : But that you being Men professing Conscience , Integrity , and Ingenuity , will beare a more fauorable respecte to the said religion ; And herewith I will conclude , recommending you all in my daily prayers vnto him , who out of his Power and Goodnes created vs all , and out of his Mercy dyed for vs all ; to the end , that by our professing of a true fayth , and exercizing of a vertu●us lyfe , he might saue vs all ; seing otherwise we can no more auaylably expect eternall Beatitude , then the Patriarchs dying in Egypt , could hope to be buried in the Laude of Promisse . Laus Deo , & Beatae Virgini Mariae . AN APPENDIX , WHEREIN IS TAKEN A SHORT VIEW [ CONTAINING A FVLL ANSWERE ] OF A PAMPHLET ENTITVLED : A Treatise of the Perpetuall Visibility , and succession of the true Church in all Ages . Printed anno . 1624. CVRTEOVS READER . Thou mayst be aduertized hereby , that not long since , to wit in the yeare . 1624. there came out a certaine Booke entituled : A Treatise of the perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church , in all Ages : not subscribed with any Name . The reason thereof ( belike ) was , in that the Authour ( as guilty to himselfe of his impure proceeding therein ( durst not iustify neyther himselfe , nor this his labour : Though the entituling him in the Epistle to the Reader ( which seemes to be written by some other person , then the Authour ) The most Reuerend , Religious , and painfull Authour thereof &c. doth in the iudgment of many , intimate him to be no meane Man , but a great mayster in Israel : to wit eyther D. White , or D. Featly , or some other as great as eyther . To this concealing of them , of the Authours name ( who , as being a Protestant , might boldly and without danger subscribe his owne name to his owne Booke ; farre differently from vs Priests ) I may ad the Authours affected silence through out his whole Treatise , in not touching , neither glancing at the then late and fresh Conference had at London , euen of this very Subiect of the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages , betweene the afore mentioned D White , and D. Featly on the one part , and M. Fisher and M. Sweete on the other : This Authour not so much as naming eyther the said Priests or Conference ; though all the Realme did then ring thereof . But his intended policy therein may well be presumed to be , that if he had made any particular Reference to the sayd Conference or Priests ; he might well assure himselfe , that then presently an answere would be shaped against his Booke ; which ●e had lesse reason to feare ( as he thought ) his Treatise comming forth in this louely manner . And so himselfe ( as no doubt , he hoped ) might haue set downe ( as the phraze is ) with the last Word . But whosoeuer the Authour is ; most certaine it is , that the Treatise is most shalow and frothy ; though otherwise it be fraught with diuers deceats and impostures : But we must pardon him , seing we are to remember , that there are some falshoods ( and among these , this of the supposed Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages , may iustly be placed ) of so deep a tincture of lying , as that no art can make them receaue any other dye . The ambitious title ( as presuming the Protestant Church to be the true Church ) promiseth ( you see ) to prooue ; that the Visibility and Succession of the Protestant Church hath perpetually and without interruption bene in all ages , since Christ his dayes . But here that vulgar saying is iustifyed : parturiunt montes nascitur ridiculus mus : as will easily appeare to any , that shall studiously peruse the former Dialogue , or will obserue , what is here adioyned . And as touching this precedent Catholicke Treatise of the second part of the Conuerted Iew. Though it be indeed purposely and principally written against all eminent Protestants in generall ( as appeareth by the alledging of their names and testimonyes therein ) who heretofore haue mantained by their penns , the continuall visibility of the Protestant Church ; yet may it with all be iustly reputed , as a full answere to this discourse here examined ; seeing the whole scope , drift , and cheïfe examples of Protestancy ( I meane of Hus , Wicklefe , Waldo , & diuers others ) insisted vpon by this Anonymous and namelesse Authour , are discouered in the former Dialogue , for false , idle , and impertinent ; as being alledged long since by other more famous Protestants : Thus we see , that this Authour is glad to licke vp the arguments of his former Brethren , & to feed vpon their reuertions . Now what other things of lesser moment may occurre herein ( especially touching the impostures and calumnyes here practized and the names of some obcure men , suggested for Protestants only by this Authour , ) they shall in this short Suruey be displayed and refuted . What is here set downe by me , is set downe with all affected and labored playnes of words or style ; purposely forbearing all excursions or amplifications of discourse ; and this to the end , that the Reader may with the lesse distraction of Iudgment and Memory , haue at once a short and whole Synopsis and sight of this Authours falshoods , subt●ltyes , and snares ; where with he labours to illaqueate & entangle the simple and ignorant . And now to descend to a particular dissection or anatomizing of this Pamphlet . First the Reader is to obserue , that the Wryter thereof spendeth 28. pages , in seeking to prooue , that it is not exacted , that the Church of God should be at all tymes visible ; at least to others . Yea he is so full and earnest therein , as that meerely crossing his prefixed title , he laboreth to prooue the contrary to the said title ; for thus ( to omit diuers such other passages ) he writeth : The a godly are driuen to extremityes by Heresyes or persecutions ; they be visible one to an other &c. they are not so apparent to other men , as that at all tymes they know , where to find Assemblyes and Congregations of them . And againe : It is not b doubted , but that the Woman ( to wit , mentioned in the Apocalyps ) doth represent the Church , concerning whom being in Wildernes , it doth manifestly follow , that for the tyme of her aboad here , which the Almighty hath decreed , she should not be discerned ; that is , by her Enemyes , who did & would chase her . Notwithstanding it is not to be doubted , but she knew , where herselfe was . And yet more fully : The c Church of Christ , whilest this troublesome World lasteth , is now glorious , then shadowed ; in one age in bewty , in an other kept vnder ; vnder some Princes in peace , vnder others in persecution ; yea sometymes so pressed with the extremity of the malicious , as that she is glad to remayne retyred into secret places , and not to appeare openly to the , malignant . But in an other place following , ( to wit , pag. 26. ) he plainly depriueth the Church of Christ of all Visibility , thus speaking : In the dayes of Constantius , when the Arian Heresy had once gotten on head , wherein the World did there appeare any sensible Congregation , mantayning the orthodoxall beleife ? Now what a strange Inuisible Visibility ( as I may tearme it ) doth this Authour assigne to the Church of God ? in effect thus extrauagantly arguing : The Church of Christ is sometymes more obs●ure , then at other tymes : Therefore the Church of Christ is sometymes inuisible . For I can see no other Inference nor other end , whereunto his former speeches are directed . But this sleight , as being shadowed vnder the colour of Persecution , is refuted in a passage of this former Dialogue . And here I now demand , how doth all this sort to the former glorious tytle of his Booke ? to wit : Of the perpetuall Visibility , and Succession of the true Church in all ages . Now how painfully ( or rather calumniously ) the Authour laboreth to prooue this inconspicuous●es and obscurity of Christ his Church , we will in some few leaues touch ; referring the Reader to the beginning of the former Discours , for the more full refuting and impugning of the same : Where it is demonstrated , that the Church of Christ must at all times be most visible . And first , this Pamphleter much insisteth in the tymes of the Iewes ; prouing from the paucity of true beleiuers among them , that the Church of Christ is in lyke sort at diuers tymes to be straytned . And to this end , he produceth many sentences of the Prophets ( whose places d for greater breuity , are noted in the margent ) But here his Ignorance ( or at least his fraude ) is discouerable . For first , these places are to be vnderstood , not so much of want of fayth ; as of bad conuersatiō in lyfe and manners , wherewith the Prophets did charge the Iewes . Secondly , the Texts alledged are indeed for the most part in words spoken of the Iewes in generall ; but not intended by the Prophets to be ment of all the Iewes promiscuously . Which Prophets were often accus●omed ( as S. Austin e well noteth ) to reprehend the whole People , as if not any among them were good , though many among them were pious . Thus for Example Ezechiel saith c. 3. All the house of Israel are impudent and s●ifharted ; and yet in the nynth chapter of the same Prophet we thus reede : Set a marke with Ta● , vpon the forheads of them , that mourne and crye , for all the abominations , that be done in the middest thereof . Lastly , this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament , and applyed to the New , is most inconsequent : Both because the New Testament is better established , then the , old ; seing to it is promised , f that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church ; And also it is styled : The g pillar and foundation of truth . And finally , in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God ( as the People of the Christians are ) And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue , there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust ; as Melchisedech , Iob , Cornelius , the Centurion , the Eueuch of Queen of Candice &c. This ended , this Triffler in pag. 6. & seuerall other places , mētioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias , saying : relictu , sum solus . But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue . In the next place ( to wit , pag. 10. ) he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ , during his aboade here vpon earth , and tyme of his Passion ; but all this most impertinently : seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne ( and then for euer after to continue , till the worlds end ) after the descending of the Holy Ghost , and not before . This done , the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours ; prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere , that these Persecutions ( according to the nature of persecution ) were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible ; as that it became thereby most visible ; seeing none are persecuted , but visible Men : And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians , euen to this very hower : they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes , both of Catholicks and Protestants . In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians , and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit , * The whole World did s●ght , and wounder , that it was Arian ; from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes . But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance . For here First , Ierome calleth that ( by the fig●●e Synecdoche ) the whole World , which is but a part of the World ; S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 . Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word : Arian , in a secundarye signification . For here he calleth them improperly , and Abusiue , Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy . For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops , which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine ; and were deceaued by the Arians , through their mistaking of the greeke Word : Omosios ; and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians . But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour , did instantly correct the same , and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance . Thus we se , the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians , at that very tyme. Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius , as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie ; and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two : For thus he wryteth : The Church for any externall show , was brought low ; for if any body held it vp , it was Athanasius , who then played least in sight , and durst not appeare . Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking ; for though it be granted , that Athanasius ( in regard of his feruour and learning ) was more persecuted by the Arians , then any other Bishop ; yet to ●auer , that himselfe alone , or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius , and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme , is most improbable , or rather most absurd . This is proued ; first , from the Councell , which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy ; at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present . This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more ; the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy . Now how can it be conceaued , that all the said Bishopps ( speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme ) excepting only Athanasius , should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution , externally profes the Arian Heresy ? Againe , the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle , which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria , did wryte to Pope Paelix , the Second of that name ; wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution , their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes , the Arians . Thirdly , the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that , that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of A●hanasius and Libertus ( and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius , and well knowne to hym ) did refute and contradict ( ex professo ) the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings : As for example , i Basil , k Gregory Nazianzene , l Gregory Nyssene , m Cyrill of Ierusalem , n Hilarius , o Ambrose , p Epiphanius and some others : Now in respect of the Premisses , can it be but dreamed , that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes , but only Athanasius , or Liberius ? Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples & authorityes , descendeth to Reason , thus arguing : Faith doth much consist of things , which are not seene . Therefore ( seing we beleiue the Holy Church , as an article of our fayth ) it followeth , that it needs not to be euer eminently visible , or apparently sensible vnto vs. Learnedly concluded . Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter , he is to vnderstand ; that in the Church of God , there is something to be seene , and something to be beleiued . We do see that company of men , which is the Church , and therein the Church is euer visible ; But that , that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God , that we see not , but only beleiue : Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man , which is Christ , the Sonne of God ; but that he was the Sonne of God , this the Apostles did not see , but only beleiue . In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore , he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations . cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed , that she should flye into the Wildernes ; affirming that by the Woman , is vnderstood the Church , which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution . To this I answere ; first , this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations , cannot ( as euidently to vs men ) proue any thing ; seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions & prophecyes ( many of them being yet vnaccomplished ) and figuratiue speeches , we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense & meaning of them . Secondly , What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants , do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations ( differently from the vrging of this Authour ) is set downe aboue , in the first part or beginning of the former Dialogue . Thirdly , admitting , that by the Woman , is vnderstood the Church in Persecution ; yet followeth it not , that therefore she shal be inuisible ( which is the point , for which it is vrged here ( seing a Church , in that it is persecuted , euen in that respect is become visible ( as is proued in the Treatise aboue ) though otherwise it be granted , it is not so gloriously eminent , as it is in tyme of prosperity . Now whereas the Authour pag. 29. from the Woman ( mentioned in the Reuelations ) flying into Wildernes , thus disputeth : The true Church is for the tyme out of sight in the Wildernes : But so say they ( meaning vs Catholicks ) was their Church neuer : Therefore Will they , Will they , their Church is not the true Church . Here Ignorance mixt with extreme boldnes , disputeth . For whereas Learned Men ( both Catholicks & Protestants ( as appeareth in the former Treatise ) make a continuall Visibility , to be a Marke of the true Church ; Here the Authour ( diametrically crossing all former Authorityes , aboue alleadged ) teacheth , that that Church , which euer hath beene visible , and neuer out of sight ( to vse his owne words ) cannot be the true Church ; and consequently that the Catholicke Roman Church is not the true Church : Thus he ( contrary to all other authours ) maketh an Inuisibility to be a necessary Marke of the true Church . Ad hereto ( as afore is intimated ) that if in this Pamphleters iudgment , the true Church must sometymes euen of necessity be out of sight , and in Wildernes ( or otherwise not the true Church ) how then doth not this mainly feight with the tytle of his Booke , to wit : Of the perpetuall Visibility and Succession of the true Church in all ages ? And why should not the tytle thereof rather be : Of the interrupted and discontinued Visibility of the true Church ? And thus farre of the first part of this Pamphlet in which we see , how painfully the Authour hath labored , sometymes to prooue , that the Church of God must at certaine seasons be more glorious and resplendent , then at others ( though no Catholicke denyeth this , and therefore the prouffe of it is but impertinently vndertaken ) At other tymes , as in his last produced sentence and argument , as also in some passages aboue cyted , to prooue that the true Church must be often wholy inuisible , plainly thwarting the Inscription of his booke . But his affected calumny here ( whereby he bewrayes his owne guiltines in these his vnworthy Scripts . ) is only , to prefix this discourse of the Churches obscurity , or rather Inuisibility ; that it may serue , as an excuse ( and for a plastering ouer ) of those few , weake , and false examples of Protestancy in former ages , alledged after in this Pamphlet by him : For he hopeth , that by this his former insinuation of the Churches obscurity , the Reader will lesse expect any full demonstrations and certaine arguments of the Protestants Churches Visibility in former tymes ; and the rather seing such an vnterrupted visibility is not ( in this Mans weening ) necessary to the true Church . Now here we will further tract this Authour in his passages , who , ( whether he be D. White or D. Fearly , or some other ) next beginneth with extraordinary calumnye & deceate , to exemplify his Protestants for certaine ages . For whereas he ought to prooue ( euen from the Title of his Booke , and the Controuersy of the Protestants Churches visibility , now ventilated betweene vs and his Partye ) that the Protestant Church ( seeing he presumeth it to be the true Church ) hath bene visible for the space of sixteene hundred yeares ( for so long since and more , it is since our Sauiours Incarnation ) he produceth examples ( admitting them for true ) only for foure hundred yeres at the most ; and immediatly before Luther ; so leauing one thousand , and one hundred yeres , and more ( a small tyme , you see ) wholy destituted of any one produced example of Protestancy : he saluing this his omission , or leauing ouer these eleuen hundred yeres , in this manner following : What s the old Fathers taught ( meaning the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , as being Protestants ) we haue tyme hereafter to show , ( which time of his showing , what they taught , is not yet come ) And of the supposed Protestants , betweene the Primatiue Church and the tymes of Waldo ( he ascending no higher then Waldo ) being about six hundred yeares , he vseth this preterition : We shall t not need to ascend any higher ( meaning any higher from Luther , then to Waldo ) Which otherwise to make playne , is as easy , as to deliuer that , which hitherto I haue spoken : And it is not to be conceaued , that Petrus Waldo ( of whome the Waldenses did take their name at Lyons ) had his doctrine from no body &c. Is not this a very learned satisfaction ( thinke you ) or rather a satisfaction vnworthy to proceede from any Man , professing learning for instancing of the being of Protestants , from Christ his tyme to the dayes of Waldo ( contayning about twelue hundred yeres , or but little lesse ) for all which tyme he instanceth not in any one Protestant , but wholy slips it ouer notwithstanding the Catholicks euer earnest prouoking of the Protestants herein ? Or can any impartiall iudgment , demanding for instances of Protestancy , during all or any of those former ages , rest thus contented ? Heere then ( good Reader ) thou seest , how this Authour abuseth thee , who dealeth with thee herein no otherwise , then if he iustly and truly owing thee Sixteene hundred pounds , should in speeches vauntingly pretend , that he had payed thee euery penny thereof ; And yet he comming to particular accounts and reckonings with thee , should be able to prooue , that he had payed thee ( and this also , but in counterfeyt siluer ) only foure hundred pounds ; affirming in lieu of further payment , that he would be as able to pay thee all the rest , as he hath already done this lesser Somme . Wouldst thou not take such an one , for a most dishonest and perfidious man ? The case of this Treatiser is here iust the same . But to returne to the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , Of whom he saith , what they taught , he would hereafter show ; meaning ( belyke ) in some other Booke hereafter to come forth Of that labour he is now allready preuented ; And therefore the Reader may find in the Conclusion to the former dialogue , that by the confessions of most learned Protestants , the Fathers were absolute Papists ( as we are called ) and are therefore by the said Protestants vtterly reiected . In which former passage , is also proued , from the Protestants lyke Confessions ; that all the Professours of Christianity , betweene the tymes of the auncient Fathers , and the dayes of Waldo ( contayning six hundred yeres at lest ) were wholy of our present Roman Religion ; and not any of them a Protestant . But let vs now in this next place , come to his particular Instances of Protestancy , for the space of foure hundred yeres only aboue mencioned : in setting downe of which the Pamphleter vseth this ensuing policy ( for indeed he is a man wholy made of sophistications , deceats , and collusions ) he doth not beginne with Waldo , so descending to Luthers dayes ; seing by this playne method the Reader might at the first sight and sensibly obserue , that he hath omitted ( contrary to the title of his Booke ) eleuen hundred yeres , without giuing any one instance of Protestancy for all those seuerall ages . Therefore he craftily beginneth to instance in the tymes before Luther , and so ryseth vpward some foure hundred yeres from this day , in his pretended Examples : Thus hoping , that the vulgar Reader would either , through not perusing the booke to the End , or through want of Iudgment , not so easely and instantly espye , how far ( and no further ) he had proceeded in these Examples . Now touching his Examples ; he first instanceth in Hus and u Ierome of Prage , who liued anno Domini 1400. that is , some hundred and twenty yeres ( or thereabouts ) before Luthers Apostasy . To this Example of Hus , in which the Pamphleter cheifly insisteth ( for as for Ierome of Prage , he but embraced some of Hus his errours , as learning them from him ) I First answere , that supposing Hus had broached all poynts of Protestancy ; yet followeth it not , that Luther had receaued the said Doctryne from Hus , by an vninterrupted descent of Beleife ( as this Authour pretendeth ) for it may well be , that Hus his Errours were extinct in respect of any beleiuers before Luthers dayes : Euen as Aerius denyed prayer for the deade , and the Hereticke Manichaeus freewill ( as x S. Austin witnesseth ) yet were those Heresyes vtterly extinguished for many ages , till Luther reuiued them . Secondly , the articles , which Hus mantayned ( different from the Roman Church ) were but foure , as they are recorded by Fox himselfe : Of which , the doctrine of Communion vnder both kinds , was the cheifest : though according to the iudgement of z Luther , it is a point but of In differency . In all other points Hus was Catholicke , which this Authour calumniously concealeth . Thirdly , Hus mantayned that acknowledged Heresy on all sydes , that Bishopps & Princes ( being in mortall sinne ) were not to be obayed , but thereby did loose all their authority . Which Heresy is in like sort wholy concealed by this Pamphleter . Concerning the particular prouffes of all which points , euen from the Protestants Confessions , I referre the Reader to the former Dialogue , where Michaeas discouereth them at large : as the like he doth of Wicklefe , Waldo , and others hereafter alledged by this Treatiser . Fourthly , if the Visibility of the Protestant Church may be iustifyed in Hus , or in Waldo , Wicklefe , or in any other hereafter obtruded for a Protestant by this Pamphleter , because eich of them taught two or three ( at the most ) of Protestant points , then by the same reason may the Protestant Church de sayd to haue beene visible , in the Arians , 1 for reiecting of Traditions , & for perpetrating many sacrileges agaynst the Sacraments , Altars , and Priests ; in Pelagius , 2 for teaching euery sinne to be mortall ; in Vigilantius , 3 for condemning all religious virginity , and affirming the relicks of Saincts are not to be worshipped : In the Manichees , for denying of freewill : And in diuers such others : All branded Hereticks and registred for such , by the orthodoxal Fathers of the Primatiue Church . Now this Inference I would entreate the Reader to obserue , with peculiar application to all the pretended examples of Protestancy , alledged in this Pamphlet . Fiftly , if we should grant heere all that , which is spoken of Hus , yet it but warranteth the visibility of the Protestant Church , only for the age , in which Hus did liue : His doctrine not being taught in ages before . Now here in this discourse touching Hus , I am to put the Reader in mind , how this Authour spendeth many idle leaues , in showing how the Nobles of Bohemia , mantayned the errours of Hus ; And that they came into the field in great forces , agaynst the Emperour in defence of the same : so much ( sayth he ) was the doctrine of Hus dilated . He also introduceth some one or other , inueighing against the Popes manners and Cleargy of those tymes : and for such their proceedings , he tearmeth them Protestants . ( And this method , he mightely obserueth throughout his whole Pamphlet . ) Idly inferring : as if fayth , which resids in the vnderstanding , were not different from manners and conuersation , which rest in the Will : Or that abuses in manners , will not euer be in some members of the Church : Or finally that a Protestant , for charging of some Ministers of his part with disorders of life , or Puritans for their bitter inuerghing against the Bishops here in England , were therefore to be reputed Roman Catholicks : so loosly and weakly he disputeth herein . But all these his Digressions , in respect of the vndertaken subiect of his discourse , are meerly extrauagant . And in my iudgment his intention in these , and other such dilations , and declamatory inuectiues ( wherewith his Treatise is in many places hereafter fraught ) is cheifly , but to fill vp leaues of paper : that so his booke might grow to some reasonable quantity . For seeing all his supposed examples of Protestancy in his Treatise , might well be contayned ( omitting all froathy ambages and circumstances ) in two sheets of paper , and seeing such a poore thing could not come forth alone , with any credit to the cause , or reputation to the writer : He therefore thought it more fit , to interweaue in his Pamphlet diuers long and tedious discourses , how improfitable soeuer . This to thinke , I am the rather induced : in that we may further obserue : in how great and large a letter his Booke is printed : and how spacious the margent of his leaues are , being almost as much paper in quantity , as that , which is printed : And all this ( as probably may be coniectured ( to the end , that this his learned Tome ( forsooth ) might contayne some indifferent number of leaues : See how suttle Heresy is , in triffles and things of no moment . The Authour hauing finished his discours of Hus , & his adherents & followers : in the next place riseth to the Waldenses , * who ( as is here alledged ) denyed Purgatory , Transubstantiatiō , & blessing of Creatures . First , touching Transubstantion , what the Pamphleter here deliuereth , is a vast Vntruth ; as appeareth from the testimony euen of Calu 〈…〉 , a thus wryting : Formula Confessionis &c. The forme of Cōfession of the Waldenses doctrine , doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation , who do not confese , that the Bread is become truly the body of Christ . In lyke sort , touching the doctrine of Purgatorie , Benedictus b Montargensis ( a Lutheran ) chargeth the Waldenses therewith : from which two Examples we may take a scantling , what credit is to be giuen to the Pamphleter , in his other Assertions hereafter . But grant , that the Waldenses did teach some one or other poynt of Protestancy ; yet in regard of their far greater Number of Catholicke Articles , euer beleiued by them , and their many execrable Heresies ( condemned for such both by Catholicks and Protestants ) both which poynts this Pamphleter pretermitted in silence ; The Waldenses cannot iustly be exemplified for Protestants : Now of the Catholicke Articles , as also of the Heresies beleiued by the Waldenses , see the Dialogue aboue in the passage touching Waldo , and the Waldenses , and their followers . After this Authour hath finished his speech of the Waldenses , he further thus proceedeth : The c Authour of the sixtenth Century nameth about the yere ▪ 1500. Baptista Mantuanus , and Franciscus Picus Earle of Mirandula ; both which inueighed against the Cleargy and their whole practize : Also one D. Keisers pergius , an other called Iohn Hilton , a third named Doctour Andreas Proles , and Sauanorola , all grawning vnder the burden of those tymes . Againe , the Pamphleter thus saith : Aud the d same is written of Trimetheus , an other learned Man , who liued at that tyme. Thus this our Authour . Now how exorbitantly and wildly are these vrged for Protestants ? For First , they are auerred to be such only by Protestant Wryters ( to wit , O●●ander and Pantaleon ) who heerein may well be presumed , for the vphoulding of their owne Protestant Church , to be partial in their Relations . Secondly , this Treatizer doth not instance any poynts of Protestancy beleiued by any of them ( which if he could , no doubt , he would not haue omitted ) but only vrgeth their wrytings against some pretended abuses of the Church of Rome in those dayes . And therfore such his proceeding is but calumnye and impertinency . Lastly , touching Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula ( for as for the others , they are so obscure , that hardly any particular information can be had of them . ) It is certaine , that they were both Roman Catholicks , and dyed in that Religion . For as concerning Sauanorola , he beleiued all the Articles of the Roman fayth ( as euidently appeareth out of his owne writings , styled : Vigiliae ) excepting the doctrine of the Popes power to excommunicate . This one point he contumaciously denyed , and for this he was burnt . Touching Picus of Mirandula , Syr Thomas More of blessed memory ) wryting his life , showeth , that he was so fully a Roman Catholicke , that in his life tyme , he sould a great part of his lands to giue to the poore ; that he often vsed to scourge & discipline his owne flesh ; that if he had liued longer , he intended to haue entred into the Religious Order of the Dominican Pryars : That in tyme of his sicknes he receaued ( according to the Catholicke custome ) the most blessed and reuerend Sacrament of Christs body and bloud , for his Viaticum ; Finally that hearing the Priest in his sicknes to repeate vnto him , the articles of the Roman fayth , and being demanded , whether he beleiued them ; Answered , He did not only beleiue them ; but did know them also to be true : So fowly ( we see ) this Pamphleter is ouerseene in alledging Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula , for Protestants . But to proceede further . This idle waster of penne , inke , & paper ( for I can tearme him no better ) next descendeth ( in a retrograte and disorderly method ) to Laurentius e Valla the Grama●iā ; who touching the Articles of the Roman Catholicke fayth , only denyed freewill ; as appeareth euen frō the Protestāt f Writers ; And who after ( g ) submitted himselfe to the Pope , and finally dyed in all poynts Catholicke ; all which this Authour affectedly concealeth . He saith of Valla in this sort : Valla wrote a Treatise of purpose , against the forged donation of Constantine : He pronounceth of his owne experience , that the Pope maketh war against peaceable People , and soweth discord betweene Cittyes and prouinces &c. With much more refuse of base matter , concerning the supposed coueteousnes of the Pope ; yet notwithstanding all this , he nameth not any one Article of Protestancy defended by Valla. But the Pamphleter thus further proceedeth to others , saying : About h the same tyme liued Nicolaus Clemingius , who rebuked many things in the Ecclesiasticall State ; and spake excellently in the matter of Generall Councells &c. Petrus de Aliaco Cardinal of Cambray , gaue atract to the Councell of Constance , touching reformation of the Church ; There he doth reproue many notable abuses against the Romanists &c. About i the same tyme liued Leonardus Aretinus , whose litle Booke , against Hypocrates is worth the reading ; So is the Oration of Antontus Cornelius Linnicanus , laying open the lend lubricity of Priests in his dayes : So doth k he detect many abuses and errours , who wrote the ten agreiuances of Germany ; But those , who compiled the hundred agreuances of the German Nation , do discouer many more . And then the Pamphleter most ambitiously ( or rather ridiculously ) thus concludeth : By this tyme I trust , it is manifest , how false a slaunder of the Papistsis that before the dayes of Martin Luther , there was neuer any of our Religion . Egregiam verè laudem , & spolia ampla refectis . Tu calamusque t●●s . For who obserueth not , how absurdly you Pamphleter do apologize . For the Visibility of your Church ? Thus ( good Reader ) thou seest , that this Authour instanceth in Valla , and others aboue mencioned , for Protestants ; and yet setteth not downe any one Article of Protestancy beleiued by them : for not any of them denyed the Reall presence , Purgatory , prayer to saincts , the Seauen Sacraments , Iustification by Works , the Popes Supremacy &c. All that this Authour can produce thē for , is , because they did wryte Satyrically and bitterly against the abuses of the Church , in those dayes . But to this we replye ; That it is granted on all sydes , that both in the Catholicke and the Protestant Church , there haue bene ( and still are ) diuers of irregular and disedifying lyues . Must now those , who in their wrytings or Sermons reprehend such , be necessarily supposed to be of a different fayth from those , whom they so reprehend ? Who seeth not the weaknes of this inconsequent and absurd kynd of reasoning ? From the former Iustances , the Pamphleter ascendeth to Iohn ( l ) Wiclef , prostituring him for a Protestant . And heere also he spendeth many leaues in wandring excursions of speeches ; and indeede to no other end , but ( as I intimated a fore ) to dawbe inke vpon paper . For he pretendeth to show the Aussits had receaued their doctrine out of the Books of Wiclef ; how the Councell of Constance condemned Wiclef for an Heretiycke ; as also how the doctryne of Wiclef was much dilated heare in England . But to manifest , how impertinent the alledging of Wiclef for a Protestant is , I refer the Reader to the Dialogue ; where are showed out of Wiclefs one Wrytings the many Catholicke articles of the Roman Religion , ( to wit , the doctrine of the seauen Sacraments , Rites and Ceremonies of the Masse , praying to our Blessed Lady , worship of Images , merit of Works , and works of Supererogation &c. still beleiued by him , euen after his leaping out of our Church . As also there are showed the many condemned Heresies in like sort mantayned by him , after his departure from the Roman Church ; and this from the penns of the Protestants . But here before I end with Wiclefe , I must put the Reader in mind of one notorious Collusion or deceate , much practized by this Pamphleter , touching diuers of the former men alledged for Protestants , but most particularly touching Wiclefe . It is this : He here particularizeth no Protestant articles , but only the denying of Transubstantiation ; yet where he aboundantly declareth , that W●clefe was condemned by the Church of Rome for his defence of many errours and Heresyes , he subtilly beareth the Reader in hand ( though he expresseth not any of them in particular ) that all these Heresyes condemned in him were points of protestancy ; thereby to make show , what a great number of protestant articles were beleiued in those dayes , and how much the said Men did participate in doctrine with the protestants of these tymes . But this is a meere sleight and imposture ; seeing it is euident , that besides some few points of protestancy beleiued by Wiclefe , Hu● , the Waldenses or Albigenses , there were many more Heresyes mantayned by them & then condemned by the Church of Rome ; Which are acknowledged for Heresyes , both by Catholicks and Protestants ; and such as in no sort concerne the Protestant Religion ; as way euidently appeare from the perusing of the seuerall passages of the former Dialogue ; wherein the heresies of Wiclefe , Hus , the Waldenses , and others are at large displayed . From Wiclefe the pamphleter commeth to Geffray Chaucer . And thus he is forced by his owne poetizing and forging art , to beg some prouffe from Poets . Of Chaucer he thus wryteth . m He did at large paint out the pryde , lasciuious , vicious , and intellerable behauiour of the Popes , Cardinalls , and Cleargy &c. adding much more securili●y of his owne : and setting downe certaine verses of Chaucer . But what prooueth this ? For first , we are not in reason to giue credit to euery verse dropping from the satyricall penne of Chaucer . Secondly , admit all were true , that Chaucer writeth ; yet seeing his reprehensions do only touch manners and conuersation , and not fayth ; it followeth not , that Chaucer was a protestant ( as I haue intimated in the former examples ( or that the Protestant Religion was in his dayes professed , which is the only point here to be prooued . Thirdly , if it must be concluded that Chaucer for such his wryting was a protestant ; then by the same reason may Spencer the Poet , for his bitter taxing of the Cleargy in his Mother Hubbardstale ; and Daniel , for his controuling of the present tymes , touching Religion and Learning in his Musophilus , be reputed Catholicks or Papists ; & yet it is well knowne , they both were Protestants , and the later rather a puritan . The Pamphleter next insisteth in one Walter n Bruit , an English Man , liuing anno 1393 and puteth him forth for a protestant , for his defending of diuers supposed doctrines of protestancy there set downe . To this I answere : first , he alledgeth no authenticall writer affirming so much , but only an obscure Register of the Bishop of Hereford : and therefore it may iustly be suspected to be meerely suppositions and forged ( or rather , that it is but feigned , that such a writing is ) seeing such a writing may with more facility be coyned without any discouery of deceat therein : as being to he found only among the Antiquityes , belonging to the sayd Bishop , who is a protestant . Secondly , suppose all for true : yet seeing that Scedule prooueth the sayd Bruite to be a protestant , but only in some points : it followeth , that he was Catholicke in the rest : and therefore can no more be challenged , for a protestant , then for a Catholicke : being the fayth of a professour in any Religion ought to be entyre , perfect , & compleate ; otherwise no man can take his denomination and name from the same fayth . Thirdly , suppose him to be a Protestant in all points , yet seing he is but one particular man ; & that it cannot be prooued , that others did communicate with him in doctrine , his example cannot prooue the visibility of the Protestant Church : since one man alone cannot be accounted for a Church . Lastly , this example serueth ( admitting it for true ) but for the tyme , that Bruyte liued ; It not being able to be prooued , that the doctrines of Protestancy ( imputed to him ) were taught and beleiued in all other Ages and Centuryes . This donne , the Pamphleter o proceedeth to diuers burnt and put to death for their Religion , in the dayes of King Henry the fourth , the fift , and the sixt , King Edward the fourth , and King Henry the seauenth . Which testimonyes he taketh out of that lying Legend of Fox ; to which booke no more credit is to be giuen , then to Esop fables . But to these examples , I reply first . The Treatiser setteth not downe the Protestant articles mantayned by these men , for their defence of which , they are here presumed to be burned : And therefore it well may be , that they suffered death for their broaching of some other heresyes or blasphemyes , not controuerted between the Protestant and the Catholicke ; & therefore such Examples are wholy impertinent . Secondly , if we do admit the authority of Fox herein ; yet it proueth , that those men lost their liues , but for one , two , or three particular points ( at the most ) of protestancy , mantayned seuerally by eich of them ; they embracing all other poynts of Catholicke Religion : being both more in number and of greater importance ; And if it be otherwise , then let this Authour prooue ▪ 〈◊〉 were Protestants in all chiefe Articles of Protestancy . Now how insufficiently such examples can be suggested , for the visibility of the Protestant Church in former Ages , appeareth , both from that already set downe in this Suruey ; as also more fully from the perusall of the former Treatise . And here the Reader is to obserue , that as such men ( aboue mentioned ) cannot iustly be taken for Catholicks , so may they truly be ranged for hereticks ; seing a stubborne and contumacious beleife but of one heresy , maketh a man , an hereticke : Whereas it must be an ●nanimous fayth of all points of true Religion ( without exception of any ) which is exacted for making a man a true beleiuer : For the nature of true fayth doth here participate , of the nature of an action morally vertuous ; Which is become defectiue , through the want of one due circumstance only , but is made perfect and complete , by the necessary presence of all due circumstances . After the former examples , he commeth to Marsilius * de Padua ( an acknowledged Hereticke ) Who cheifly erred in denying the Popes authority Now the Pamphleter to make his doctrine in this one point , to seeme more diuers in seuerall points from the doctrine of the Catholicks , subtilly deuideth it ( in setting it downe ) into seuerall branches . But to what end is this example pressed ? Seing it was the errour but of one Man at that tyme , and principally but in one Controuersy ; He comparting with the Catholicks in the doctrine of the Reall presence , Purgatory , Freewill , praying to Saints , merit of Works , Traditions &c. In the next place he vrgeth two Italian Poets , Dante 's and l Petrach for Protestants , because they did wryte somewhat in depressing the Popes Authority , in behalfe of the Emperour . Now to discouer more fully the Pamphleters falshood , in his producing these two Italian Poëts ( Dante 's and Petrach ) as supposed by him * to teach , that the Pope is Antichrist , and Rome Babilon , I will heare proue : from their owne wrytings the meere contrary to this his impudent assertion . And first touching Dante 's ; He thus wryteth of S. Peter in his Italian verses . O luce 1 etern● del gran viro , A cui nostro Signor lascio le chiaui , Ch' ei portò giùda questo gaudio mir● . In lyke sort , touching Rome it selfe he thus discourseth . Non 2 pare indeg no al huomo d'intelletto , Che ei su de l'alma Roma , & de suo impero Nel ' empirco ciel ' per padre eletto . La quale , el quale à voler direilvero , Fur stabilite per lo loco sancto ; r ' fiede il successor del maggior Piero. In which verses Rome is called a reuerend Citty ; a holy place ; fortified and strenghtned euen from Heauen ; and finally the seate of Peter . Againe , Dante 's was much aduers against Pope Nicolas the third ; whom being dead Dante 's notwithstanding thus honored with his Verse . Et 3 se , non fusse , ch' aucor le me vieta I ariuerentia delle summe chiani , Cheiutenesti vella vita lieta , Iover ei parcle ancor più graut . In which words Dante 's confesseth plainly , that the reuerence , which he did beare to this Pope , in regard that he receaued the keyes of the Church ( meaning supreme authority in Christs Church ) was the cause , why he did forbeare to wryte more sharply against hym . Finally , to omit many other lyke passages , Dante 's saith , that Boniface the eight : Ne 4 summo offitio , ne Ordini sacri Guardò in se . In which verse he acknowledeth , that supreme authority and holy Orders did resyde in Boniface ; whose manners were otherwise displesing to Dante 's . In this next place I will come to Petrarch , who thus wryteth in acknowledging the power of the Bishop of Rome . 5 Quis ( quaeso ) non stupeat , simulque non gaudeat , si amicus sit Vicario IESV CHRISTI ? And further : Romano 6 Pontifici omnes , qui Christiano nomine glortamur , non modo consilium , sed obs●quium insuper & obedientiam debemus . All we , who glory in the name of Christians , do owe not only counsell , but duty and obedience to the Bishop of Rome . Now for greater euidency of this poynt , I will descend to the particular prayses , geuen by Petrarch , to particular Popes in his Italian booke , written of the liues of Popes . We there then find , that of Pope Vrbanus 5. he thus writeth : Fu nelle sacre Scripture dottissimo , & santamente visse : Vrbanus was most learned in the holy Scriptures , and liuod most Sanctly . Of Clemens 6. he thus recordeth : Fu & per nome , & per fatti , di molte virtù pieno : Clement was both for his name and for his deeds , replenished with much vertue . Of Benedict . 12. these are his words : Beneditto fatto Papa reformò l'Ordine di S. Benedetto &c. era feruido nella fide , & nelle buone operezelatore : Benedict being created Pope , did reforme the Order of S. Benedict &c. He was feruerous in the fayth , and zelous in good works . &c. To be short , of Iohn 22. he thus saith : Costuifu ottimo & glorioso Pastore ; fece molti bein , & Hereticiper zelo della fide condamno ! This man was a very good and glorious Pastour ; He did many good deeds , and condemned Hereticks , out of his zeale to the fayth . And now I ref●r to any in different iudgment , whether these two Italian Poëtes ( Dante 's and Petrarch ) did thinke the Pope of Rome to be Antichrist , or no , ( as our 7 Pamphleter semeth to vrge , ●hey did ) and whether the former prayses can be truly applyed to Anthichrist , & the whoare of Babilon : ●o euident it is , that what the foresaide Poēts did Sa●yrically wryce , was written only against some disorders in the Church of Rome , and against the presumed faults of some particular Popes ; but neuer against their supreme dignity in the Church of Christ . And as touching the former Popes by Petrarch so commended ; We are to remember , that his prayses deliuered of them , where written after the deaths of the said Popes ; and therefore his words could not be censured to proceede from adulation and flattery ; but according to his owne true and secret iudgment passed vpon those Popes . In the same manner , for their lyke inue●ghing against the fulnes of the Popes power and iurisdiction , he alledgeth certaine obscure men ; to wit , Dulemus , Hayabalus , Ioannes Biraensis , Ioannes de Rupe scissa , three religious Men ; who liued and dyed ( in respect of all other poynts ) in the Roman Church . And yet touching Ioannes de Rupe scissa , both this Authour and the authour of Catalogus testium veritatis : ( From whom this man taketh it ) are deceaued , if we may beleiue Fox * who thus wrytes of hym : Ioannes de Rupe scissa , liued in the yere 1340. who for his rebuking of the spiritually for their great enormittes , and neclecting their office , was cast into prison . Our Pamphleter after produceth Gerson for a Protestant , of whom he thus saith : Gerson * saw in his ages many horrible abuses of the Church of Rome , and in his wrytings spake liberally of it . Is not this a learned prouf for Gersons being Protestant in all poynts of Protestancy ? After all the former ●nstances the Pamphleter ( euen for want of other matter ) returneth back againe to the Waldenses t or Albigenses , iterating with a tedious prolixity his former discou●s concerning them , and this in many leaues : Whereby he sheweth the extreme mendicity of his Cause ; and that he laboreth with all Art possible , to draw out this his Treatise ( as is aboue said ) into some reasonable number of sheets . But touching the Waldenses , I refer the Reade● ( as afore I willed ) to the p●rticular passage of Waldo , in the former Dialogue . His former Extrauagancyes of discours being ended , he is not ashamed to challenge S. Bernard u for a Protestant , of whom he thus wryteth : Before our ascending thus high , we might tell you of S. Bernard , whom all though it is lykely at the first dash , you will challenge as your owne ; yet when you haue well aduized of hym , you may let hym go againe . O perfrictam front●m , and wonderfull Impudency . For who is so ignorant or so bould , that wil not confesse S. Bernard to haue bene a Roman Catholicke in all points ? He was a religious Man , and Abbot of Claireuaux and Authour of many Monasteryes in Flanders and France ( as O siander x the Protestant confesseth ) he also was Pryest , and said Masse to his dying day ( as all Writers of him do testify ) A poynt so euident , that for his being a great and eminent member of our Catholicke Church , the Centurists ( al Protestants ) thus censure him : Bernard●●s y coluit Deum Maozim , ad nouissimum vitae suae articulum : And further they say of him : Bernardus fuit acerrimus propugnator sedis Antichristi , Bernard was an earnest defendour of the sea●e of Antichrist . Here now I refer to the candid and vpright Reader , what impudency it was in this Man , to challenge Bernard for a member of the Protestant Church . But heere touching S. Bernard , I cannot but abserue this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge , who tearmeth all such Articles , wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs ; as the Sacrifice of the Masse , Purgatory , merit of Works , free will praying to saincts , and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer ( only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted , to whom afore he had bene Mayster , and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely ) Slips a & Lapses , b as they were beleiued by him : which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition , Idolatry &c. And thus we may see , how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons , is by this Pamphleters deceate , diuersly censured . Leaning S. Bernard , the Authour generally ( but with out any prouf at all ) wisheth his c Reader to thinke , that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome , and did lie hid , as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias , for feare of Persecution . But this he only saith , but proueth not : and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie , with which it was spoken . Now touching those Men , who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution , I refer the Reader to the former dialogue , wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed . That done , the Pamphleter sayth , that d India , Armenia , Asia the l●ssar , and Egypt , had in former tymes Christians in them ( for he giueth them no other name , then Christians : ) And then he inferrs , without any proofe at all , or instances in the points of their Religion , that they were Protestants . Poore man , that thus most insensibly reasoneth : Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points , with the present Roman Churrch ; Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome , aboue all other Bishopps . In the last place of all , he much insisteth in the Greeke e Church ( within which are included the Russes and Muscouits ) he thus saying thereof : The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished ; And from whome the Russians and Muscou●ts had their fayth . And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe : We should do wrong to Almighty God &c. to pull from him , so many ample Churches ( meaning the Greeke Church , & the others aboue specifyed ) inferring from thence , that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible , euen in the Greeke Church . Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants , shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin f Sands ( a man of his owne Religion ) who plainly affirmeth , that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation , & generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse , in praying to Saints , in au●●cular Confession , in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead , Purgatory , & worshipping of pictures . Yea the Protestant Deuines g of Magdeburg do record , that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles , recited by Syr Edwin Sands ; but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse , Confirmation with Crisme , Extreme V●ction , all the seauen Sacraments , Almes for the dead , freewill , Monachisme , vowes of Chastity , the fast of Lent , and other prescribed fasts , that Priests may not mary after Orders taken , and finally that the tradition & doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept . Now heere I refe●re to any one not blinded with preiudice , whether the professours of the Greeke Church , are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants : And from hence we may disc●uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter , who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant , and a continuall Vis●●ili●y of Protestancy in the said Churches , thus insulteth : Looke to these places ( you Papists ) and Imagine , that if there had beene none , but these ; yet the words of the Scripture , which in generality speake of a spouse , had beene true : And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth : and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished , if neither We , nor the Synago●ue of Rome had beene extant . Thus he . His former examples being ended , he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter , touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours , the Kings of England and France . And then all such persons , as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings , agaynst the Popes of those tymes , the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes , was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings , within their owne Realmes . That done , the Treatiser extra●agantly discourseth in his de●lamatory rayling veyne , that the Pope is Antichrist : But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet , and prouing of his owne Churches visibility ( the which he obliged himselfe to performe ) may appeare , by what is already set downe . After all this , & for a Close of all , he obiecteth ( for forme-sake , as if his taking notize of what , we can truly obiect against his wryting , were a sufficient answere to it ) certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks , agaynst his former Instances of protestancy : Which Obiections of ours being set downe , he shapeth no true Answere vnto them . And first , he thus obiecteth in our behalfe : ( l ) The Papists will beginne and say , that we rake together , as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth , such as were notorious Hereticks , as Wicklefe , Hus , or the Waldenses &c. To which ( after much securtility of words ) he finally thus answereth : We do m not beleiue that all those , are Hereticks , whom you Papists will so call or account . But we reply hereto , and say ; That not only the Catholicks , but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe , Hus , the Waldenses , as also Almaricus , Peter Bruus , &c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes , acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes ; as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue . The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours , absolute Heroticks : seing they were mantayned by Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church , publikly teaching the contrary : far differently from S. Austin , S. Cyprtan , and Lactantius , their beleiuing certayne errours ( the which this Pamphleter , for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth ) seing these Fathers taught them only , as their owne probable opinions : euer submitting ( with all Obedience ) their Iudgments therein , to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church . Ad hereto , that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes , do indifferently charge Wicklefe , Hus , Waldo , and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy , and with diuers absurd Heresyes : The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations , or equally to be reiected in them all : And the rather , seing they could not foretell ( a consideration much to be obserued ) or presage , what points touching fayth and Religion , and different from the then Roman fayth ( wherewith Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. were then charged ) would be professed , bele●ued , and mantayned in these dayes , by the enemyes of the Church of Rome : And therefore it necessarily followeth , that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , and the rest , are either in generall true , or in generall false : If false , then haue we no sufficient Records , that there were any in those dayes , who beleiued any points of protestancy : If true , then certayne it is , that as Waldo , Wicklefe , Hus , &c. mantayned some points of protestancy , so with all , that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies : and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants . Secondly , the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort : None n of all those , which hitherto haue beene named , or can be named ( meaning for Protestants ) but in some knowne , confessed , and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you : And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church . This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall , saying : All those , whom before I haue named , did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same , Which we now teach . What forhead or shame hath this Man ? For First , as touching Waldo , Wiclef , Hus , and their followers ( in whom through out this Pamphlet , the Authour principally insisteth ) It is confessed by Osiander , Luther , Fox , and other Protestants , as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings , that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion , which were of greatest moment ( as in the Reall Presence , seuen Sacrements , praying to Saincts , Purgatory , frewill , Merit of Works , and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion ) Concerning the proufe of all which poynts , I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue . Secondly , touching other obscure Men , alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part ( some two or three excepted ) exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them , then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome . But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles , why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe , as he did the other , touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome ? Ad hereto , that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour , only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes ; they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer ; & euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea. To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration . That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts : yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ , for these Reasons ensuing : First , because they were but few in number , and in regard of such their paucity , the Predictions of the amplitude largnes , and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number . Touching which predictions , peruse the beginning of the Dialogue : Secondly , because neither this Authour , nor any other Protestant liuing ( how learned soeuer ) can proue , that , there were in those tymes ( specified by this Pamphleter ) any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants : which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church ; as is demonstrated in the former Tract . Thirdly , because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues , and no longer ; The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant , for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together : which poynt being so , impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church , which must at all tymes and ages be most visible ; but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet : wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages . Thus far now ( Good Reader ) I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet . Now for they better memory , I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements , practized by this Authour throughout his Booke . And then I will remit both him and his Treatise , to they owne impartiall Iudgment . 1. First then , I may remember his putting no name to his Booke , nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London , touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church : nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete , the two then disputants . Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability : seing otherwise he might well thinke , that the setting of his owne Name downe ( especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly ) or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation , might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet , from one of the said two Fathers , or from some other Priest . 2. Secondly , You may call to mynd , that in the first part of his Treatise , he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church , then the Visibilitie thereof ( contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet ) cheifly to intimate thereby , that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted , as we Catholicks do teach it is : and consequently , that what few , weake , may●ied , and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy , he was after to alledge , the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough , for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility . 3. Thirdly , The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy ( and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority ) or did wryte against the Manners & conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes ; though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome , in all Articles of fayth . 4. Fourthly , He callengeth those for protestants , who were condemned by the Church of Rome , for other Errours , then are mantayned by the protestants ; so making the ignorant Reader beleiue , that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies . this the pamphleter doth to the end , that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater , in his Readers eye . 5. Fyftly , he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes , euer beleiued by Hus , Wiclefe , Waldo &c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies , as they mantayned , & are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestāts ; The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe ( in expres Words ) any one of their Heresies . 6. Sixtly , For want of better Authours , he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts ( as Chaucer , Da●●es , Petrarch ) vrging them for protestants ; only by reason of their Satyrs , written against the supposed abuses of Rome . 7. Seauently , he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe , in long and tedious discourses , touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo , Hus , Wiclef &c. as also touching the Contentions betweene the Popes , and the Emperours , the Kings of England and France ; and finally spendeth diuers leaues in rayling against the Pope , as Antichrist : All which werisome prolixityes he vseth , thereby to spine out his booke to some resonable lenght or quantity ; seing otherwise to the title of his booke , they are mearly impertinent . 8. Eightly , his Monstrous Impudency is to be obserued , in making S. Bernard , and the Greeke Church in former tymes , as also the Churches in India , Armenia , Asiae , Minor , Egipt &c. to be protestants , without showing any one Protestant Article , that they did hould ; excepting the Greeke Church , denying the Popes Supremacy . 9. Nynthly , The title of his Booke , being to proue the continual Visibility of his owne Church in all ages , he produceth his Examples of protestancy ( supposing them for the tyme , to be true Examples ) only for the first three or foure hundred yeres before Luthers dayes ; and so ( mearly crose to the title of his booke ) he omitteth eleuen hundred yeres , without geuing instance of any one protestant , during all those Ages . 10. Tenthly , Touching the Compas of those few ages , for which he produceth some supposed Examples , his fraud and calumny is , to begine from Luther vpward ( and not downward towards Luther ) thereby the better ( as is aboue said ) to conceale from a vulgar Eye , the small number of those ages or Centuryes , for which he endeuoreth to proue the imaginary Visibility of the protestant Church . 11. Eleuently and lastly , his stilling the Catholicke Articles ( to wit of the Reall Presence , Purgatorye , free will , praying to Saincts , and all the rest , beleiued by S. Bernard and other Catholicks only Lapses and Slipps ; the beleife of which Articles in vs Catholicks at this present he , commonly calls Idolatry , Superstition &c. But this alleuiation of words and speech he vseth most subtelly of S. Bernard that so notwithstanding S. Bernards different beleife yet by this Pamphleter he neuertheles may be reputed a good protestant . Thus far ( Good Reader ) of his cheife affected sleightes And with this I end , referring this one Consideration vnto thee . That is : Yf the question of the Visibility of the protestant Church through the Conference had thereof at London ( immediatly before the comming out of this Pamphlet ) and occasion of that other Toy , intituled : The Fisher catched in his owne M●t , was at that tyme , much discoursed and talked of by many Men through out the land ; and therefore the Mantayners of this Visibility did stand more obliged ( by all Reading and learning possible ) to iustify the same ; being then and at all tymes , so much prouoked vnto it by vs Catholickes , and if neuertheles , the Authour heare refuted , being stiled in the Epistle of this Treatise : A most reuerend , and learned Man , and one who hath more particularly and perspicuously traualled in this Argument , then any in our English tongue ; And therefore he may be presumed in all lyklyhood , to haue spoken in defence thereof , as much as can be spoken therein : Yf ( I say ) this Man cannot but for three or foure ages only ( and these , nearest to Luthers dayes ) seeke to iustify the same ; and this by meanes of some few , false , defectiue , and misapplyed examples and Instances , accompanied with diuers frauds impostures , and Collusions : What other thing then from hence may be concluded , but that it is impossible to make good or proue the Visibility of the Protestants Church , during all the ages since Christ to Luthers dayes ( or indeed , du●ing but any one ●ge thereof ) And consequently , that the Protestant Church , for want of such a necessary Visibility ( euer attending o●● the true Church of Christ ) is not , nor can be the true Church of Christ ? FINIS . THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW OR THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEVV . Betweene . The right honorable , the Lord Cheife Iustice of England . Michaeas , the former Conuerted Iew. M. Vice Chancelour of Oxford . The Contents hereof the Argument following , will show . Vide mulierem ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum , Apocalips . 17. THE ARGVMENT OF THE THIRD DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS . STILED THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW. MICHAEAS , after his disputation ended in Oxford , with D. Reynolds , Ochinus , and Neuserus , touching the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church ; and giuing it out , that he would instantly depart from thence ; Neuerthelesse lyeth secretly in Oxford , and hath peculiar acquaintance with some of the choyest witts there ; whome he persuadeth to the Catholicke , and Roman fayth . The Vice-Chancelour of Oxford , hearing thereof , apprehendeth Michaeas , conuenteth him before the right Honourable the Lord Cheife-Iustice of England ; before whome he stands arraigned of three Crymes . The first , that ( according to the falsely supposed Principles of the Roman Religion ) he laboreth to plant disloyalty in the Schollars mindes . The which Michaeas absolutly denyeth ; and thereupon retorteth ( by way of recrimination ) the cryme of Disloyalty vpon the Protestants , both for their doctrine thereof , and for their practise . The second offence vrged by the Vice-Chancelour is , that Michaeas did write certayne short Discourses of diuers points of Catholicke Religion , and diuulged them to the Schollars of his acquaintance : Of which discourses the Vice-Chancelour getting a copie ( of Michaeas his owne hand wryting ) deliuereth it ( in the presence of Michaeas ) to the Lord Cheife-Iustice . This Action Michaeas acknowledgeth it , as true , and warranteth it by force of Reason , and strong example . The third Cryme . That , Michaeas ( being a Roman Priest ) vndertaketh to reconcile some Schollars to the Church of Rome , and daily celebrateth Masse . All this Michaeas granteth vnto , iustifying such his proceeding , by deducing the antiquity of Priesthood : of the power of remitting sinnes ( in the Sacrament of Pennance ) and of the Masse euen from the times of the Apostles , and the Primatiue Church : By reason of which occasion , the present state of Priests , and Catholicks in England , is impart discoursed of . To conclude ( omitting diuers other short insertions , & passages in the Dialogue , incidently occurring ) the Lord Cheife-Iustice ( as inclining to clemency , and commiseration ) proceedeth to an honorable , and myld Censure , or iudgment against Michaeas ; at which censure the Vice-Chancelour mightely stormeth . And so , ( Michaeas , earnestly praying for the Kings health , and true happynes ) the Dialogue endeth . THE ARRAIGNMENT OF THE CONVERTED IEW BEING A DIALOGVE BETWEENE THE RIGHT HONORABLE THE LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE OF ENGLAND MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND M. VICE-CHANCELOVR OF OXFORD . Wherein is prooued ( besides diuers other short insertions ) that the Protestants stands more chargeable with disloyalty to their Lawfull Princes , then Catholicks do . THE VICE-CHANCELOVR . MY Lord. All duty to your Lordship . I haue here brought before your Lordship , a Man most turbulent in his proceedings ; and who of late hath much ruffled , and disordered the fi●e , and quiet state of our Vniuersity , by seeking to infect the Schollars thereof , with his Popish , and superstitious doctrines : One , whom kinde , and curteous entertaynment ( for such he hath found at our hands ) cannot mollify , and whose demerits are of that nature , as that Compassion shewed to him , would prooue Cruelty to others ; And we should become accessory to our owne hurt , to suffer such a man to passe vn punished . Therefore I hope your Lordship will not preserue him , whō the Law hath ouerthrowne ; nor suffer his present calamity ( how great soeuer it may seeme ) to attract from your cleere iudgment commiseration , & pitty ; But rather you will vouchsafe to remember , that he doubteth his crime , who masketh it vnder the tecture of Religion . This is that Michaeas ; homo a pestiferus & concitans seditionem ; who after his disputation in our Vniuersity with the most learned D. Reynolds , made show presently to leaue our vniuersity , and to retire himselfe into some forayne Countrey : But many months haue since that time passed : He , during all the whyle , secretly lourking among vs ( so the Spidar lyes close , to surprise the incautelous flee ) seeketh to get priuate acquaintance with diuers eminent Maisters of Arts , and others of the yonger sort . Which being obtayned , he then enuenometh their iudgments with Superstition , and Idolatry , and with his other Romish positions , breathing disobedience , & disloyalty against the Magistrate . And indeed he hath such a facility by slye , and subtill insinuations , to serue himselfe within the Schollars affections , as that it is most wounderfull : For first he commonly beginneth a farre off , to talke with them of the nature of other Countreyes , and of his owne trauells in other vniuersityes ( to which discourses our Schollars do lend their greedy eares ) before euer he entreth to talke of Religion ; And so ( like a good tabler , ) he vsually playeth with them an aftergame , the more speedily to come to his designed end . The hurt , which he hath already perpetrated in our vniuersity ( which is one of the two eyes of the whole Realme ) is great and insufferable ; and your Lordship well knowes , that b if the eye be wicked , then all the Body shal be darke . Therefore now at the lenght hauing apprehended him , I haue conuerted him before your Lordship that so he may be punished by the Law , who hath transgressed the Law. LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE . Stand forth Michaeas . Many and greiuous ( you see ) are the complaints giuen vp agaynst you ; from which you must either truly vindicate your selfe , by being faultles therein , or otherwise you must vndergoe the chastisment appointed for such offences . And though we Iudges be ordayned to punish what is euill ; yet we are to wish , that men do not prooue themselues euill : And therefore I desire , that your Innocency ( if innocent you be ) may be here cleared : for I hould it a farre greater ouersight to punish the guiltles , then to leaue vnpunished the guilty ; Since Iustice instructeth vs not to delight in punishment , but to recurre to it for playne necessity . Now speake Michaeas , what you can in your owne defence . MICHAEAS . My Lord. I do heare first prostrate myselfe in all Humility before your Honour ; resting glad , that though my accuser haue wronged me by thus falsly traducing me before your L. yet that it is my fortune , to appeare before such a Iudge , with whom Innocency shall find it sanctuary , and only true faults be corrected : for I presume , that that sentence of the Psalmist is euen imprinted and sealed vp in your hart : c Rectè iudicate filij hominum . Now for my more iust defense your L. may heare be aduertized , that I am a Iew by byrth and Nation , and a Roman by Religion ; and do hould , that Ierusalem , ( I meane the Church of Rome , which is vpon earth , the spirituall d Ierusalem ) is the place , where Men ought to worship . I came into this florishing Kingdome , only through my greate desire of seeing your famous and so much celebrated Vniuersityes , with intention of returne in a conuenient tyme. Now I trust ( my L. I speake it vnder correction of your more experienced Iudgment ) that I , as being a stranger , and not borne within these dominions , do not stand precisly subiect to the lawes of the said dominions ; And therefore , what I haue committed ( suppose most to be true , as most of it is false ) may well be an errour in me ; but any heinous cryme ( as now it is exagitated ) it cannot be . And further euery Man well knowes , that euen by the lawe of Nations , the very name of a stranger ( who in this respect cannot take particular notise of the Municipall statuts and Ordinances of the Realme ) doth pleade excuse for many Transgressions ; the committers whereof being borne subiects , are seuerely and deseruedly punished . Therefore my L. since Lawes are made rather to succour , then to wound Mankynd , I dowbt not , but your L. will heare dispence with all sterne seuerity , and will remember that saying of an auncient Father : Facilius Ira , quam Indulgentia obliqua est . VICE CHANCELOVR . See you not my L. how this Polypragmon , this Michaeas dare not only ( without feare ) violate the lawes of our Realme ; but also will needs braue it before your Lorship , that for being a stranger , and not borne in our Nation , he stands not subiect to the said Lawes ? and thereupon doth iustify his impietyes ; but it seemes he gloryes to be extremly facinorous : e Est & mali dignitas , quod in summo pessimorum collocetur . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Michaeas . Your Plea heare is most weake and defectiue for though you be a stranger , and as you say , not borne vnder the lawes of our Dominions ; yet you must know , that you had leasure enoughe to be acquainted with our Lawes , before you entred into our Country , or at lest within short tyme after . And you must conceaue , that the Lawes being made by the consent of the whole Realme , are not to be violated in fauour of any one Man. Furthermore , where you speake of Priuiledges and Indulgences allowed to strangers euen by all Nationall Lawes ; you must ●●ke notize , that these fauours are imparted to strangers with some conditions and restrictions ; to wit , if the bad comp●rtment and cariadge of the said strangers do not worthely 〈◊〉 them of participating of the said Priuiledges ; since otherwise , no reason there is , why they should be partakers of them ; And indeed the lesse reason , because in tyme of Necessity , when the Prince is to command aydes , forces , or Tributs from his subiects , no such releife and helps can be expected at the hands of any strangers , resyding in his Country . Lastly , it were repugnant to the nature of Iustice ( which in it selfe is euer sacred and inuiolable ) that a stranger , ( such an one , as you Michaeas , are ) by comming into a forrayne Country , and as it were , by indeuizing hymselfe for the tyme , should become a subiect in the fruition of the benefits of the said Country ; And yet , when he would performe any vnlawfull act , he should of new create himselfe a stranger . Therefore ( Michaeas ) my iudgment here is , that you stand obnoxions and subiect to our lawes ; And therefore you must either plead yourselfe innocent in the obiected Crymes ; or els the Lawes of our Realme will iustly take hould of you . What say you therefore to the offences , wherewith you heere stand charged ? MICHAEAS . Well my good Lord : since it is so I humbly submit myselfe to your L. graue iudgment heerein , and do willingly recalle my former mistaking , in alledging the priuiledge of a stranger . Yet I hope I rest excusable : since not knowing , but that it might stand in force , I had no reason ( by not insisting vpon it at the first ) to be vniust to myne owne Innocency , or to be slow in myne owne defence . Now my L. to come to the obiected Offences . Where first I must say , that though an extraordinary Loue of Iustice doth sometymes cause Iniustice in the louer : Yet no such effects do I feare in your L. since you are one , who will impartially censure of Mens Actions , as they are in themselfs : and not as they are tragically amplified by the tongue of malice . Touching then my accusations , I must put your Lordship in minde , that my Aduersaryes Serpentine ( not Prudence , according to our Sauiours words , but ) Subtilty , hath in accusing of me , so affectedly mingled together Truths with falshoods , as that I can neither with one breath absolutely acknowledge all , nor absolutly deny all . Yf I say , I haue not persuaded some Schollars of the Vniuersity to the Catholicke Roman Religion , I do lye ; And if I do confesse , that I haue diuulged to them any Positions of our Religion , as supposed to contayne the seeds of disobedience and disloyalty to their Prince ( besides the vntruth thereof ) I should be false to myselfe , and wrongfully become my owne Accuser . Therefore ) to seuer and ●ane theese two different poynts , one from the other ) know you ( most worthy Iudge ) that I do freely grant , that during my stay in this your celebrious Vniuersity , I haue moued diuers of the students to embrace our Catholicke and only true Religiō . And if it be thē an offence to persuade a Man to saue his soule , I do heere acknowledge my selfe to be an offendour in this Kynd , and shall receaue with comfort any imposed punishmēts for the same : But if it had been far better for one , to haue lyed in euerlasting Informitye and Abis of Nothing , then to enioye a Being , and after to haue that Being ( for want of a true fayth and Religion in his Creatour ) to be punished with eternity of paynes ; I hope then , we lyue not in those Canicular and vnluckly tymes , but that the perswading by fayre and sweete meanes to the true fayth and religion , shal be houlden if not as worthy of Commendacion yet at lest as exempt from blame and dislyke ; and the rather , since Men are not to be forced by lawes to an erroneous fayth only for statesake : Religionis f non est cogere religionem , quae spontè suscipi debeat , non vi . Touching the second poynt , wherewith my aduersary ( too myld a word , my Enemy ) chargeth me at this present : that is , that I should lye secret in the Vniuersity , and labour by all meanes possible , to plant in the Schollars iudgments such Theorems of doctryne , as might breede disloyalty in their mynds ; It is a most false and calumnious imputation : myselfe being therein as innocent , as Innocency itselfe . I know well , that as on the one side , nothing is more delicate , then is the sense and feeling of an Estate ; so on the other , I am assured , that our Catholicke Religiō is so far from approuing disloyalty , as any Profession or Religion can be . For it teacheth with the chiefe Apostle , that we a ought to be subiect to the King , as excelling ; It surther instructed vs with the Apostle of the Gentills , That b we are to be subiect to higher powers , seing there is no power , but of God , that Who c resisteth the power , resisteth the Ordinance of God ; and they , that resist , purchase to themselfs damnation ; Finally , that we d ought to be subiect euen of necessity , and for conscience sake ; since e such a Power beareth not his sword without cause . Now our Religion teaching all this , why should this Plantife out of his owne speculatiue and suspicious concea●e ( like to a superfluous Comment , which ascrybeth more to the Text , then euer the Authour meaned ) soyle my innocent and cleere intentions with the aspersion of such a foule demeanour ? Therefore my L. since this is only storme , which at this present cheifly showereth vpon my disgrace ; I hope that the radiant beames of Iustice ( through your L. meanes ) will be of force to discipate and dissolue it . VICE-CHANCELOVR . My Lord these are the accustomed common places of mouths , exhaling forth disloyalty ; I meane , to plead innocency , though neuer so faulty ; and to stuffe their excuse with tragicall phrases , apt to stir vp a vulgar pitty . But if this Man [ my L. ] who hath contaminated himselfe with so many foule breaches of Ciuill Hospitality ( which all men in all Nations most ceremoniously obserue ( may passe vnchastized ; then let vice expect to be rewarded , and vertue punished . But why do I labour so painfully to take the height of this his wicked action ( since it is a kind of errour , ouer precisely to insist in proofe of most euident Truths ) as if doubt were here to be made either of your L. iudgment herein , or of your Iustice ? the one being sufficiently warranted vnto vs , by your long experience in this kind ; the other by your many examples of like Nature . But to turne my words particularly to you , Michaeas . I pray you , why must your stay in our Vniuersity be kept so close and secret , after you gaue it out , you would instantly depart ? Belike you thought , the more retyredly you liued from the eye of vs all , the greater conceate would be had of your presumed Worth ; and so your followers might keepe you , as a treasure reserued to themselues ; you imitating herein Diogenes , who became the more eminent , in regard of his affected obscurity . MICHAEAS . O M. Vice-Chancelour . do not thus betrample vpon old age and calamity ; neither lay a further weight of digrace , by your forgeryes vpon him , whom misery and yeares haue almost prostrated euen with the earth . Neither seeke to enlarge my faults with your more greiuous fault . And where you inuest my priuat retyringe in your Vniuersity with a veyle of a desired emminency ; I must replye , that I am as far from all such elation and pryde of mynd , as your selfe is from all charitable censuring of me . For I do acknowledge my selfe to be a meane and de●ected Old Man , and do ascrybe all glory height and honour to hym , who is celsitudo * humilium ; And who being only supreme , doth most delight in those , who are the lowest ; And this deseruedly , since we find by experience , that who are most poore in Spirit , are commonly most rich in the guyfts of the Spirit . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . M. Vicech : I would haue you to descend to the particular doctrines of disloyalty , broached by Michaeas in your Vniuersity : for as yet both your words haue bene spent only in discoursing and äery generalityes . And they are particulars only , of which the law taketh hould : for since the punishment prescrybed by the Law is particular , it followeth , that the offence must also be particular . Therefore show in such and such a poynt with others particularityes , where Michaeas hath offended against the Soueraignty of Princes . VICE-CHANCELOVR . My L. I will. You haue di 〈…〉 gled ( Michaeas ) to your sollowers , that the Pope hath full authority to det●one Kings and Princes ( though neuer so absolute ) at his pleasure . And further Papists teach , that the spirituall Iurisdiction residi●g in the Pope , ought to haue that predominancy ouer all temporall authority , which the soule hath ouer the body . To be short , this poynt ( to wit , that your Popis● Religion doth teache rebellion & insurrection of the subiects against their lawfull Prince ) is so cleare , as that we may well say , Papistry and Disloyalty are almost Termini conuertibiles : for though some disloyall Men are not Papists : yet euery Papist ( in that he is a Papist ) is to his soueraigne Protestant Prince , disloyall . MICHAEAS . You are glad ( M. Viach . ) to moysten this your drye accusation , in the froath of many idle and splenfull words . Your accusation stands vpon two poynts : First , you charge me in particular for disseminating of disloyalty in your Vniuersity : That being only said , you make in lieu of further proofe thereof a sub●●ll transition to the doctryne of other Catholicks in that poynt : As if what were wanting to the perfecting of my supposed Cryme therein , ought to be made vp , by the accession and application to me of other Catholicke Doctours wrytings of that subiect . Now to the first I answere . It is a most false Calumny forged in your owne brayne , and wrought vpon the anuile of Mali●e . For produce ( if you can ) the parties , to whom I euer vttered such a Doctrine , the Place or the Tyme , Where or when , such speeches were deliuered . Thus , we see , that this your report ( as being in it selfe most false ) is wholy disuested of all Circumstances , necessarily attending vpon euery humane Action . For euen to re●cyle the secrets of my soule herein : I did in all my discourses with your Scholars purposely auoyde ( as a seamarke ) all such questions [ of State : ] so vnwilling I euer was , but to touch vpon those dangerous sands . And for the greater demonstration of my Innocency herein , and of my Loyalty to his Maiesty of England , I here acknowledge ( and in this acknowledgement I do for the tyme , depose and put of the person of Michaeas , and speake in my owne person , the Authour of this Treatise ; and in the name of all other Priests and Catholicks of England ) all layalty and fidelity to our most gracious and dread soueraigne King Charles , and to his most illustrious and worthy Queene ; beseeching the Almighty to graunt him a fruitfull bed , and to make him Parent of many noble Children : And further I humbly pray to the Highest , that he may in all tranquillity and true happynes raigne ouer vs many yeres ; and after his dissolution of Body , that he may equall in euerlasting Be atitude the greatest Sainct of his Predecessours now in Heauen . This is my Protestation made in all sincerity , and in which by Gods grace euen to my last gaspe . I intend to continue and perseuer . But now to resume my former shape of Michaeas . Touching the first point of my accusation ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) you see how cleere and innocent I am . I will now hasten to the second branch , contayning ( as you say ) the doctrine of Disloyalty , taught euen by all the Doctours of the Roman Church . First I answere , It is a most iniust slander obtruded vpon them by you ; since not any one Catholicke Doctour teacheth , nor aone good lay Catholicke beleiueth , that the Pope can at his ny pleasure depose Princes , and transferre Kingdomes and states , as to him best liketh . Secondly , I reply , that seeing you neuer cease to vpbraid our Catholicke Religion , with the foule stayne of disloyalty ( this being your , & other Protestants common Theame , wherein you so much ryout in malignant exagerations ) Therefore as awakened by your so often ingeminated accusation herein , I do auouch ( pardon me most Reuerend Iudge , if being thus prouoked , I enter into a Subiect , perhapps vngratefull to you ) that the Protestants do by infinit degrees , stand more reprehensible in this poynt of disloyalty and disobedience towards their Prince , then we Catholicks do . And this I will prooue , if I may be suffered , at this present against you [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] first from the positions and speculatiue assertions of the most learned Protestants ; and after , from the actuall insurrections and rebellions of Protestants , against their lawfull Princes . VICE-CHANCELOVR . This is the Scene [ Michaeas ] of men of your disposition , that when you are truly charged with your owne faults , then in place of better answere , you insimulate ( by way of recrimination ) your Aduersaryes within the same faults . But it seemes by you , that dotage is the accustomed Attendant of old age ; or that you take a delight and complacency to haue the subiect of disloyalty often in your mouth , as you euer haue it in your hart . But begin at your pleasure to charge vs Protestants ( if you can ) either with the doctrine or practize of disloyalty . My Lord-Iudge ( I know ) will giue you leaue , who in the end shall perceaue , that all what you can imagine in this point , is but meete imagination , and no reall Truth ; And so in your discours , you will resemble that Man , who dreames , he doth but dreame . MICHAEAS . O wound not [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] my reputation with these Philippicks and declamatory Inuectiues ; so much hurtfull euen to the speaker : for , * quomodo placabit Patrem , iratus in fratrem ? And rest satisfyed , that I do not solace myselfe ( as you suggest ) in this vnpleasing Text : but do acquaint my selfe with discourses of that subiect , with the like intention , that the morall Philosopher doth busy himselfe with the nature of Vice ; which is , the better to auoid Vice. L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Michaeas . I must needs now say , that you do infinitly wrong our Religion , by ascrybing both to the chiefe Doctours and Professours of it , this odious Cryme of Disloyalty and Rebellion . No , no. Our Gospell which cometh from God , best teacheth our duty towards the Lieutenants of God. I presume , that herein you rest but vpon the bare and naked speeches of others of your owne Religion , our designed enemyes : But you must remember , that as things , which are seene by reflexion , are imperfectly seene ; so reports and bruits taken only at the rebound of partiall mens mouths , deserue but a light eare . But seeing it is the part of a Iudge , to heare all sides with an indifferent eare ; you may [ Michaeas ] at your pleasure begin your discours of this your assumed Argument , where I doubt not , but M. Vice Chancelour will sufficiently repell all your reasons , and answere to your examples , to the greater Honour of our Religion ; which is a free from all stayne and blot of disloyalty , as an intemerate virgin is free from any defyled touch . Therefore , Proceede . MICHAEAS . My L. I will ; And I must entreate your Patience herein , as desirous to abstayne from geuing the lest iust offence to your L. And touching this subiect , I dowbt litle , but that ( howsoeuer you are as yet perswaded ) after I haue finished my Discours , your morning and more retyred thoughts will ( at lest in the secrets of your owne Iudgment ) geue an other censure hereof . And I will begin in deliuering the Positions & doctrines , which the most accomplished Protestants for literature , haue left of this Argument in their Bookes and wrytings . And first do we not find Luther euen to denye all secular principality , as most vnlawful now in these Christian dayes ? For thus he wryteth : Among a Christian Men none is superiour , saue one , and only Christ . As also more fully : Among b Christians , no man can or ought to be a Magistrate ; but eich one is to other equally subiect . And further in contempt of all Magistrats touching matters of Religion , he thus discourseth : As Christ c cānot suffer hymselfe to be tyed and bound by Lawes &c. So ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them . And more : Yf the d Ciuil Magistrate should contend , that his Commandements be necessary to saluation ; then as it is said of the Traditions of the Papists , the contrary is to be donne . Thus we find , that Luther is not affraid , not only to impugne all Magistracy and domination in certaine cases ; but he is also not ashamed , to dogmatize and teach in his wrytings , that there neither are nor ought to be any true souerainty or Princes at all , now in the dayes of Christ . To which Princes partly their Eminency graced with Pompe and state ; but chiefly an innate & imbred Obedience to Power and Maiesty ( God and Nature making that now good , which law of man did first ordayne ) induce men to exhibit all due reuerence and veneration : In compare of whom , euen the greatest subiects are to seeme but priuate & obscure ; like the brightest starrs , which are darkened in the presence of a fayrer light . VICE CHANCELOVR . Touching Luther [ Michaeas ] you must know , that although we acknowledge him , to haue been a great instrument of God , for the reuealing in these later tymes the Gospell of Christ ; yet we grant , that in some points he varyed from the Truth ; and particularly in denying all Magistracy and Principality . But all other cheife Professours of our Religion concurrently teach with vs the lawfulnes of Princes , and all due Obedience vnto them . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour If Luther by your owne acknowledgment , did erre in this point , how then can you rest assured , that he did not erre in other points of fayth , first by him broached , and after entertayned by you : Since he had no better warrant for teaching the truth in the one , then in the other ; and it is certayne , that a manifest errour but in one point , carryeth with it a possibility of erring in any other point . But to come to your answere . I say the contrary thereto will presently appeare . For is it not euident , that Swinglius ( a man of extraordinary note among you ) thus teacheth ? Quando e perfide & extra regulam Christi egerint Principes , possunt depon● : When Princes do euill , and contrary to the rule of Christ , they may be deposed . Thus Swinglius ; who there warranteth this his doctrine from the example of Saule , whom God deposed ; although afore he designed him , King. Yea Swinglius thus further proceedeth : Due f reuerence it to be promised to Caesar , if so be permitteth to vs our Religion inuiolable : Thus intimating , that if the Prince doth not permit Religion , then no honour is to be giuen , but resistance is to be made . Swinglius furthermore continueth his former discours in these very words Romanum g Imperium , ●m● qu●du●s aliud Imperium , vbi religionem sinceram opprimere caperit &c. If the Roman Emperour , or any other Prince or Soueraigne shall beginne to oppresse the sincere Religion , & nos illud negligentes patim● &c. And we negligently suffer the same . We shall stand charged with contempt thereof , as much as euen the opp●essours themselues : An assertion so much displeasing to other more sober and quyet Protestants , that D. Bilson doth rest much dist●sted with those words of Swinglius ; saying in lieu , of further answere to them : As I muse h at Swi●glius his words ; so I like not his iudgment . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Mich 〈…〉 . You know well , that Swinglius and Luther liued both in one tyme togeather : I meane , then , when though many Articles of the 〈◊〉 were by them discouered ; yet all were not discouered ; but happ●ly they might mantayne some errours ; The Sunne of Christs Gospell not as then arriuing to it Meridian and full ascent . And indeed it is a kind of imperfection and ( as I may tearme it ) a signe of an ouer rigid nature , to expect in the w●yters of those firster tymes , no imperfection at all . But now in these more late and refyned dayes , the Professours of the Gospell haue wholy exploded the former doctrine of Luther and Swinglius herein . For what Men do more aduance & defend the dignity and soueraignty of Princes , then we do in our Sermons , and other our priuat Conferences ? MICHAEAS . If you do so much magnify in your Pulpitts ( as you say , you do ) the regallity of Princes , it is to the end , that in the close ( I speake only but of some of you ) you may the better vndermyne them all : like the earth , which for the tyme nurrisheth all Creatures , yet finally deuoureth all Creatures . But because you reply , that the Professours comming after Luther and Swinglius , cannot be blemished in their wrytings , with any spot of disloyalty ; Therefore to follow you in your owne method therein , I will come by degrees from Luther and Swinglius euen to these our dayes ; and so descending in tymes , I will ascend in weight and force of Argument . And now to come to Caluin , who next in tyme succeeded Swiglius , and towards whom most of you Protestants do commit a Kynd of Idolatry . It is ouer euident , that Caluin thus wryteth of Princes and their authority : Earthly i Princes do depr 〈…〉 themselfs of authority , when they erect themselfs against God , yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of Men : and we are rather to spit vpon their f●ces , then to obey them . Thus we se , that Caluin teacheth that , Princes commanding thi●gs vnlawfull , do vtterly depryue themselfs of all authority and regality , where with a fore they were inu●sted . With which former Words of Caluin D. Wilks ( no vulgar Protestāt ) doth vppraid the Puritans in this sort : They k were your teachers , who account those Princes ( who are not resined by their spirit ) vnworthy to be accounted among the number of Men ; and therefore rather to be spitted vpon , then obeyed : They were your teachers , who defend Rebellion against Princes of a different Religion Thus D. Wilk● . To come next to Beza . He was so full and intemperate in ouerthrowing the authority of Princes ; as that he did purposely wryte a booke of this very Subiect , styling it : De 〈◊〉 Magistratuum in sub●●tos : a booke much dislyked by D. Bancroft ( the late Arch Bishop l of Canterbury ) and D. Succl●ffe : Which Doctour t●us censureth thereof : Beza m in his booke of the power of Magistrats , doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases &c. And further : Beza ( m ) roundly teacheth , what reason haue Christians to obey hym , that is Satans sl●ue . And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza , he saith : a booke , n which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats . To contract this poynt touchinge Beza . Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his : P●rplace● p mihi &c. It pleaseth me very much , that you wryte , that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe , in the said epistle : Si pijs semper expectandum putas , dum lupi vltro cedant &c. Yf you thinke , we must stay the delayes of godly men , till the woul●es do freely depart , or are driuen away by publyke authority : I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein &c. And if we had made such delayes , What Churches should wee haue had at this day ? Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt : concerning both which in generall , I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft , passed vpon them both , who thus wryteth : He that q shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles &c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand , into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war , of peace , of subiection , of reformation , without staying for the Magistrate . Thus he . Next we will come to k●ox , who thus teacheth : Reformation r of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty . s God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes , t Princes for iust cause may be deposed . Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words : u Yf Princes be tyra●ts against God and his Truth , their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence . Of all which passages of Kno●see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions . Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein : for thus he teacheth : The x People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with ●at more debasing spyte he thus egurgi●ates his ve●ome : It y were good , that rewards were appointed by the People for such , 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants , as commonly there is for those , which haue killed vulues . Finally Bucanan affirmeth , that People z may arraigne their Prince . Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan , I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester ; who in his Sermon a at Pooles Church , termeth these two men : The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Michaeas . Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers ; yet no part thereof conce●neth the Church of England , or it Members : Our Church remayning most incontaminate , f●ee , and spotles from the l●ast tuch of disloyalty . And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid , concerneth vs litle ; you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs , who wholy disclayme from the same . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour : Pardon me , if I heere do say , you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance . For first , are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther , Sw●nglius , Caluin , Beza , and the others aboue mentioned ? If you be not , then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late , different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being . If you be of the same fayth , must you not then confesse , that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince ? Secondly , it is ouer manifest , that the Church of England ( I speake of some members thereof only , & not of all ) doth stand most chargeable with the same crime . In proofe of which point , I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury , D. Bancroft ; who in one of his Books , thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point , saying : I omit b their desperate courses of deposing Princes , and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation : The generall summe was this : That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it ; the Ministers , the inferiour Magistrate , the People &c. might set it o● foo●e themselues . Of these , and such like arguments diuers bookes ( he meaning , made by English protestants ) were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua , to be there then printed in English , and to be published in England &c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books , speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme , thus writeth : Goodman , c Whitingam , Gilby , the authour of the booke of Obedience , with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes , urged all states by degrees , rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues ; then to suffer such Idolatry & Superstition remayne in the Land. But to descend more particularly to this Goodman . He was a forward Protestan● in Queene Maryes tyme , & did write a booke of this very subiect , as D. Bancroft d and D. Succliffe e affirme . Thus hereof he wryteth ( as D. Bancroft f alleadgeth his sentences ) If g Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes , and comman● others to do the like , then haue they lo●● honour and obedience , and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats ; but to be examined , accused , condemned &c. And more : h It is not sufficient for subiects not to ob●y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes , but to withstand them also . And yet more plainly : Euill i Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed . To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect , there was also in the said times an other Booke , made against the authority of Princes and entituled : Of Obedience . Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft k and D. Succliffe , l in which booke we thus read : Kings m haue their authority from the People , and by occasion the People may take it away agayne . And more : By n the word of God , in a manifest defection ( meaning of fayth and Religion ) a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant . Marke you not , how he doth Rauiliac it ? And finally : It o is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants . But I will wade no further in this argument . For I much feare , that the afore vnheard , and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge . Only I must note , that among the aboue mentioned Protestants , some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes ; others with a●● contempt and disgrace ; yet all of them alledged do with one & the same eye or countenance , indifferently looke vpon this principle ; to wit : That Princes in some cases may be deposed : such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion : So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces , we obserue great disproportion , in one and the same proportion . LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE . Michaeas . I must confesse , that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants , touching the deposing of Princes are most strange , and indeede , distastfull vnto me . But it well may be , that either the places by your in●ertions and additions are corrupted ; or that you haue violated them by diuorcing the words from their true intended Sense : Which sense of their ( no doubt ) is different from that meaning and Construction , which you haue imposed vpon them . But to confes my ignorance , I haue not at any ty 〈…〉 r●d the former Authours ; And therefore I must refer this poynt ( for my fuller satisfaction ) to the iudgment of M. Vice Chancelour , here present . MICHAEAS . I do assure your 〈◊〉 . in all sincerity , that the testymonyes of the former Protesta●ts are truly aledged ; without any s 〈…〉 〈…〉 ertion either of the Words or sense : And hearein I appeale euen to M. Vice-Chancelour owne iudgment ; who if he can change me with any such willfull imposture but in any one of the passages aboue , I will acknowledge my selfe guilty in all . Besydes , all the former Authours are long since departed out of this World ; and therefore my fault ( if any such were ) should be far more odious and insupportable ; since Christian Charity teacheth vs , to treade gently vpon the graues of the deade . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Suppose ( Michaeas ) that we should grant , that all the former Protestants did teach , as you haue produced them ; for to speak the truth , I cannot take any iust exception against your allegations ; and the lesse , seeing I find some of our owne Brethren by you alledged ( and particularly D. Bancroft and D. Succlif ) to acknowledge with discontent their said sentences . Yet seeing they were but certaine Metaphysicall and aery speculations only of Schollars ; men vnapt for a mes and Rebellions , and not of any acting spirits : Their doctrinall Comminations therefore ( as neuer being accompanied with any externall Acts of disloyalty ) are to be reputed the lesse dangerous to Princes and Magistrats . And thus in regard hereof , it may be truly said , that the errour of those former Protestants hearein was but small , though the poynt , about the which they erred , was great . But the Case is far otherwyse with you Papists , who do not only teach and warrant rebellion by your doctrine ; but also haue actually practized the same with greate effusion of innocent bloud , to the amazement of all Christendom , and irreparable dishonour of your owne Religion . MICHEAS . I will here speake with the Poët ( M. Vice Ch. ) mutatio nomine , de te fabula narratur : Since these your words do ●ustly recoyle vpon your selfe , and your Religion . And therefore euen to choake you irreplyably hearein , I will present to your view , the tragicall & deplorable face of many stats and Countryes in Christendom , ingendred from the former Protestants Principles ; In the contemplation whereof we shall find it a Mistery , euer peculiar to diuers Protestant stats , to cast of their loyalty and obedience ; that so either by one meanes or other they would either fynd right , or make right , to violate the bond of all souerainty ( as men speake of Hercules breaking Gorgons knot ) with whom it hath beene vsuall , to grow wanton in shading of bloud , for the more speedy establishment of their Gospell to the end then , that these former doctrinal Theorems of Rebellion shall not become meare aery ( as it pleseth you , M. Vice-Ch . to tearme them ) I will truly and really incorporate them in diuers most lamentable Insurrections and outrages , perpetracted by Protestant subiects against their Catholicke Princes . Many of which Rebellions did receaue their first Conception ( and after their byrth ) euen from the violent incitemēts and instigations made by diuers of the afore alledged Protestants : Wryters , in the mynds of the subiects against their Catholicke Leige Lords . And in showing this , I will first begine with England , then Scotland , and so I will passe to other more remote Countryes . Now touching England . Do wee not find , that the aforenamed L. Archbishop D. Bancroft , speaking of the attempts made in Q. Maryes tyme for aduancing of the Protestants Religion , thus wryteth ? Sundry Englishmen did wryte hither ( meaning from Geneua ) sundry letters and books of this subiect ; That the Councellours of Q. Maries tyme , Noblemen , Inferiour Magistrats , and ( rather then fayle ) the very People were bound before God , to ouerthrowe superstition and reforme Religion , whether Q Mary would or no ; yea Though it were by putting her to death . And according herto we thus reade in the former booke of Obedience : By Gods law and Mans lawe , Q. Mary ought to be put to death ; as being a Tyrant , a Monster , and a cruell beast . O poore and titulary soueraignty , that is forced in these mens iudgments to be thus subiect to it owne subiects , and to endure those opprobrious and contumelious tearmes from any one obscure Superintendent , which ciuill Conuersation forbiddeth amonge Men of the meanest ranke and quality . No , supreme domination and rule , whearewith Princes are inuested , is lyke to hym , from whom it selfe originally first streameth ; that is , Absolute and independent ; and brooketh not the controule of any such , whom God hath subiugated to it by lawfull subiection . But to proceede : from these former , and other such elements and Principles of Treason , it came to passe , that one Wiltin Thomas m with others , conspyred to murther Q , Mary ; for which offence he was hanged , drawne , and quartered : that D. Crammer n ( Archbishop of Canterbury ) partly for spreading seditious Books , and cheifly vnder pretext of Religion for ayding the D. of Northumberland with horse and Men , was sent to the Tower , arraigned in the starrchamber , & attaynted of High Treason : Finally , that S. Thomas Wyat , ( seconded with the D. of Suffoch ) attempted his treason against the said Q Mary , only vnder the colour of erecting Protestancy . But to leaue England , and to come to Scotland : Who is ignorant , that Knox p being instructed in this Art at Geneua , returned into Scotland , attempting to reforme Religion euen by open rebellion , and force of armes ; and murthering the Cardinall in his bedchamber at S. Andrewes , was conuented to appeare before the Queene Regent , and for not appearing was proclaymed Rebell ? In like sort , D. Bancroft thus further wryteth of Knox and his Confederats and followers : They p kept the field two months , and tooke away to themselues the coyning irons , and iustifyed the same &c. They gaue the Queene the lye diuers tymes , and vsed her with most despi●full speeches , and re●ounced their obedience vnto her ; and depryued her of all further regiment by formall Act , penned by Kno● . The said D. Bancroft thus further enlargeth himselfe , touching Knox and hi , followers , saying : By q the perswasion of Knox in his Sermon , they did cast downe and destroy ●t S. Andrews both the houses of the Eryars , and the Abbeys in that towne : So deal● they with the Abbey of Scone , the Fryars at Ste●cling , & Lu●quo , and Edenburrough ; the Queene being fled thence for feare . Thus D. Bancroft of these mens proceedings ; who not content in afflicting the said Queene , in such rebellious a manner , further extended their malice and Disloyalty in so high a degree , to the last Queene of Scotland ; as that his deceased Maiesty ( her Sonne ) thus complayned thereof : r How they vsed ( speakind of Knox and his Confederats ) that poore Lady my Mother , is not vnknowne , and with greife I may remember it . Touching Ge●enna , Goneu● , I would say ( but the mistaking is not great , since what the one teacheth , the other punisheth ) We find that D. 〈…〉 l●ste thus truly writeth : s They of eneua did depose their Liegt Lord ( who was Catholicke ) & Prince from his temporall right ; albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lord and owner of that Citty and Territorie . Which whom conspireth D. Bancroft thus wryting hereof : The t Citizens of Geneua receauing some good encour agement ( meaning from Caluin and such others ) I doubt not , tooke vpon them the endeauouring of altering Religion : and omitted not the occasion offered of changing also the Estate of the Commonwealth . In this next place , the 〈…〉 ow Countryes affoard a greater euidency and demonstration of this point . For O●iander ( a most eminent Protestant ) thus woundeth his owne Professours : The Low u Countreyes by publike wryting renounced all obedience and subiection to Philip , their Lord and King &c. When x foure hundred of them , ( men of good ranke ) had sued for tolleration in religion , and did not preuayle , the impatient People stirred vp with fury at Antwerp and other places of Holland , Z●land , and Pladders , threw and broake downe images &c. The y subiects of those Countreyes tooke armes against the Magistrate , and made the Prince of Orange their Gouernour : A truth in like sort confessed by D. Sarauia in these words : They of the Low Countryes did ouerthrow and spoyle temples and monasteryes with Monks , Bishops , and the whole popish Cleargy , against the mind of the cheife Magistrate , and prom●se giuen . Finally Crispinus a ( the Protestant ) and the foresaid Osiander b do relate , that one Petrus Dathenus and other cheife Protestants of Gau●t , did stir vp in the yere . 1587. the Ci●tizens to cast all the Masse Priests ( as they speake ) and Monks out of the Citty , and to place their goods in the Treasury . Next let vs come to France . What ciuill Warrs haue beene raized by the Protestants , during the space of forty yeares togeather , till the last King Henry the fourth made himselfe Catholicke , only for their Religion , against their Catholicke Kings and Princes ? Many historyes are become the subiect thereof ; only I will content my selfe with discerning some few testimonyes and confessions of the Protestants heerein . And first may occu●re the battayle of Dreux wherat c Beza himselfe was present ; vndertaken only for the aduancement of the Protestant Religion and of which Battayle Beza thus writeth : The Nobility d of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy , layd the foundation of the restoring true Religion in France , by consecrating most happily their bloud to God , in the battayle of Dreux . In like sort , we thus reede in a Protestant booke , entituled : The generall Inuentory of the History of France ; and translated into English by Ed. Grimston : The e Protestants of Meaux transported with indiscreete zeale , grounded vpon their numbers , did fly to the Churches , beate downe images , and make the Priests retyre . And againe : Beza f preaching at Grenoble , Charters , and Orleans with his sword and pistoll in his hand , exhorted the people to show their manhood , rather in killing the Papists , then in breaking Images . And yet more : The g Protestants ( to wit anno . 1567. ) being first armed , were in the beginning maysters of the field &c. The King being incensed agaynst them , was at Me●ux , and preparing to celebrate the feast of S. Michael , the Prince of Condy approaching with fiue hundred horse , by this attempt forced the King to retyre , with some amazement to Paris . And yet further : The Prince of Condy and the Admirall kept S. Denis , S. Owen , and Auberuilliers to curbe Paris . The Constable ( the Kings Lieutenant ) gathered an Army , whereupon bartayle e●sued &c. Which Authour of the aforementioned Inuentory of France , relateth many more occurrents of those matters , which here for breuity are omitted . But to proceede further touching the Country of France . Osiander ( the foresaid Protestant ) recordeth this matter in these words : The i Protestants vnder colour of exhibiting a Confession of their fayth , came armed to the Kings palace &c. That k ciuill warre , for Religion was renewed ; the Prince of Condy being Generall of those of the reformed Churches ; and the Constable , Generall of the Kings Army . That the Constable l being slayne in these warres , the Kings Brother supplyed his place . To conclude this point of the Prince of Condy his rebellion herein ; It is so euident & vndeniable , that Crispinus ( a Protestant ) thus writeth hereof : After m many messages ( though in vayne ) sent by the King to the protestant Princes , the warre beganne againe . For the Prince of Condy rose vp in armes , and swore not to leaue them , vnder whose protestation this sentence was placed : Deo & victricibus armis . This lamentable subiect of Protestant Subiects rysing against their Catholicke Princes , hath busied my tongue very long : Therefore I passe ouer , how in Basil , ( a cheife Citty in Heluetia ) a great dissention did ryse betweene the Burg●sses & certaine of the Senatours , for cause of Religion only ( as Crispinus n relateth . ) And how the Burgesses hauing taken armes , forced the others to agree , to what they demanded ; and thereupon they did cast downe Images ; and how twelue Senatours fauoring our Catholicke Religion , were cast out of the Senate ; and how the Masse was first by these meanes abandoned , throughout all that S●gnory . Also , I pretermit the dolefull passages of this nature , practized in Swe●eland , of which Country Cythreus ( a Protestant ) thus relateth : o Sigismond being King of Sweueland by hereditary succession , was constrayned to giue his assent , that none should beare office in that Kingdome , but such only ( meaning Protestants ) as retayned the Confession of Augusta . He further saith thus . They forced the King to content himselfe with exercise of his ( Catholicke ) Religion in his owne Chappell . A truth so well knowne & confessed , that Osiander thus speaketh of it in generall tearmes : The Protestants p of Sweueland did decree , that the exercise of Popish Religion , should be banished out of all parts of that Kingdome &c. Finally , I passe ouer with a gentill ●uche , what the Kingdome of Palonia , hath suffered in this kynd ; of which poynt the foresaide Protestant Osiander thus writeth : Certaine q of Polonia did ( out of an vntymely zeale ) expell their Priests , with great violence and sedition : without expecting permission ( as the said Authour r confesseth ) of the Kinge Thus far ( most worthy Iudge ) I haue proceeded ( contrary to the byas of myne owne naturall disposition ) in relation of these lamentable I lyads , as I may tearme them but I am to be pardoned ; since the vpbrading importunity of M. Vice-Chancelour , did compell me thearto : from which former Examples we may gather , that for diuers yeres past , most Nations of Christendome haue become the sable and mournfulle Theaters or stages , whereupon so many blouddy Tragedyes haue bene acted ; or rather the very shambles , whearein haue bene shaughtered so many thousand Christians ; and all this warranted , vnder the pretext of introducing the Protestant fayth and Religion . And for the more iustifying of theese so wicked perpetrations , we find diuers most eminent Protestants euen with greate laudes and applauses to celebrate these their attempts . To forbeare the Encomion aboue recited , giuen by Beza to the Protestant Nobility of Fran●e , who were slayne at the batayle of Dreuz ; do we not find , when euen an inundation of bloud ( shed through the insurrection and Rebellion of Protestants ) had ouerflowed most parts of Germany , that Luther thus honoreth in words the same ? Vide or s mihi videre Germaniam in sanguine natare &c. Christus meus viuit & regnat ; ego vino & regnabo . It sermes , that Germany euen swims with bloud : But Christ liueth and reigneth ; and I will lyue and reigne . As also he thus further triumphet heareof : Thou complainest , t that by the Gospell the world is become tumultuous ; I a sweare , God he thanked : These things I would haue to bee ; and woe me miserable Man , if such things were not . In lyke sort doth not Caluin magnify the former seditions attempts of knox in this maner ? Knox u valiantly bestoweth his labour vpon Christ and his Church . O poore weake blast of wynd ( since iniust praise is no better ) thus idly spent in commending that , which deserueth all discommendation and reproach : for I much feare , that these Men , thus extolled for such their rebellions combustions and assacinacyes , are interested in that sentence of Sainct Austin : La 〈…〉 vbi non sunt ; torquentur vbi sunt . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Michaeas . You haue heare entred into a wyde and wyld excursion of Discourses . But I hould them not altogether pertinenm : since all your former Instances were vndertaken , for depression of superstition and aduancement of the Gospell of Christ . The weight whereof is to ouerballance all humane respects . And how far a Man may proceede hearein , I will not determyne : Only I hope , I may without offence say , that in matters so me●rely touching the endangering of our Gospell , and for the better beating downe of Antichrist , it is a kynd of Passion to be insensible and voyde of Passion . But you should ( Michaeas ) haue brought some examples of Protestants disloyalty , and want of duty against their Protestant Prince , if so you had thought to haue wounded our cause indeed : But since you haue not , nor cannot insist in any such , your former Instances wee repute ( supposing them to be true ) for lesse materiall and conuincing . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour . If it did comport with my present afflicted state , or with my due reuerence to this Seate of Iustice I could well smyle to see , how you still giue ground more and more , in euery of your answeares , against our former authorities and examples , for whereas the mayne Question heare is , Whether the Protestant Religion doth teach any disloyalty to the Prince , of what Christian Religion so euer he be ? And whether the Professours of Protestancy do truly stand chargeable , with such their Disloyalty for matter of Religion ? you now haue heare vsed diuers inflexions and turnings to wynd your selfe out of this Labyrinth . For first , when Luther and Swinglins were produced out of their owne wrytings to that end ; You answeare , that indeede they were iustly charged thearewith ; but neuertheles the tymes after them , being more refined and purged from all errours , were most free from all such imputations . When to impugne this reply , I did vrge , that Caluin , Beza , Knox , Bucanan and diuers others of these dayes , did in their book & wrytings most confidently defend the same doctrine of Rebellion and disloyalty for defence of Religion : Your next sleight was ( crossing your former answeared ) to say , that though theese later Men did teach the sayd doctryne ; Yet seing this was but only the speculation of some Protestant Schollars ; but neuer put in practize by any of them , or their followers ; that therefore their errour was herein the lesse dangerous and more pardonable . When to confront this your silly euasion , some of the said particuler Protestant wryters , and many thousands of other Protestants are vrged ( by their open rebellions and insurrections ) actually to haue practized the said speculatiue doctryne of disloyalty : You then lastly replyed , that all this was vndertaken by them , for the defence of the Ghospell , and depressing of superstition and Idolatry : Which you say , may perhaps desearue hearein a myld censure . And further , you affirme , that you hould the Protestants lesse chargeable with any iust fault hearein , because they are euer loyall to their Protestant Princes , for any attempts touching religion ; though not euer loyall to their Princes of a different religion from them . But how rouing and wandring are all these Replyes from the Question heare ventilated ? Which was , Whether Protestants did teach or put in practize Rebellion and insurrection against their lawfull Princes , of what Christian Religion soeuer they were ? But M. Vice-Chancelour . I do heare pardon you . For either you must haue openly confessed in the first entrance of this passage , that the Protestants do stand obnoxious , for teaching and practizing of disloyalty , &c. Against their true Kings and soueraigns ( which , perhaps , you were loath to doe ) Or otherwyse , as being depriued of all better . Yf any learned Protestant , thinke , I do wrong his party , by feigningly imposing these euasions vpon the Vice-Chancelour ; then let that Man set downe such his other owne replyes , as he may thinke more satisfying to all the former obiected authorityes and examples , and he shal be answeared . For I cannot presage , what heare could by sayd by any Protestāt , but either to vse these sleights , or otherwyse plainly at the first acknowledge the Protestants doctrine hearein . Answeares , you must haue bene forced ( thereby to wine a little tyme ) to haue vsed your former declynings and subterfugious tergiaersations . But belyke you did at the first call to mind , that the least degree of weaknes in a Cause , wheare nothing but weaknes is , is to be reputed , as a kynd of strenght ; and that little sconces are fore the present good fortresses ; when Castells , Rompyers , and such other strong forts are Wanting . But M. Vice-Ch . To trace you in the steps of your last refuge . I do heare auonch , that Protestants euen to their Protestāt Princes , only for matter of Religion ( contrary to this your last assertion ) haue manifested great disloyalty : Thus is your Gospel set against your Gospell ; I will not say with Esay , * the Aegiptians against the Aegiptians . And here I passe ouer ( for greater breuity ) the examples of this Kynd , acted in Scotland x and Germany , y euen by Protestants against their Protestant Princes ; and will a whyle rest in the ouertures and intendments at least , heare in England . And according heareto we fynd D. Bancroft thus to wryte of the proceeding of the Puritās , against their Protestant Bishops : The z Puritans meete and co ferre concerning the proceedings of the Ministers , without assistance or staying for the Magistrate . And further , talking of Penry and other Puritans , he thus accuseth them : They a would make men to beleiue , that they had for the tymes , and within their limits , an absolute authority , as if themselfs were Princes . In lyke sort , this Doctour reciteth Martin Sein●r , making mention of a hundred b thousand hands ; and what a stroake so many would stryke together ; and that ( Martin affirming ) their suyte should not be reiected ; especially in such a tyme , whearein we now lyue in danger of our enemyes abroad , and therefore had need of no causes of discoradgment at home . Thus D. Bancroft cyteth the words of Martin Marprelet ; and then he giueth his sentence & iudgment of this their Menage , and tearmeth it thus : A speech , at least seditions . This Doctour also further discoureth the threats of the Puritans against the Magistrate , and he alledgeth one of their comminations thus in their owne words : We haue c sought to aduance this cause of God by humble suyte to the Parlament , by wryting &c. seing none of these meanes vsed by vs haue preuayled , if it come by that meanes , which will make all your harts to ake ; blame yourselfs . Finally not to stay long hearein D. Succlif thus speaketh of Martin Marprelate : Martin wisheth , that the Parlament would bring in the Eldership ( notwithstanding her Maiestyes resisting of it ) vz by a rebellion . They bragged of a hundred thousand hands , and in playne ●●armes , talked of Massacring their Aduersaries . Thus D. Succlif , with whome I will heare end . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Though I cannot deny ( Michaeas ) the former attempts of the Protestants ; Yet since not only the Papists Doctrine , but also the mainfold traiterous desigments and reall practizes of them against their Protestant Prin●es , are no lesse tragicall , then the former related by you are ; I do not see , but that granting the Protestants to be faulty in defect of Loyalty , you Papists may in a far more high degree be iustly insimulated within the said Cryme . Good God , your treasons and machinations haue bene so apparent and so approued , by the consent almost of all other Papists ; as that I may truly pronounce , that in the whole thronge of Papists , a true and Loyal Papist towards his Protestant Soueraigne ( so rare such an one is ) is lyke a Diamond , placed among many whyte Saphyrs : So iust reason had the learned D. Morton to say of your Profession : We may e now expect as well a white Ethiopian , as a loyall Subiect of this Religion . MICHAEAS . Alas . M. Vice-Chancelour . These are but verball exagerations without prouffe : which as they are but wynde of sp●enfull tongues , so are they blowne away with the Wynd . Be it , that some Catholicke Doctours in certaine peculiar Cases , do ascrybe a powrfull authority to the Pope against Princes ; And grant also , that some few Catholicks haue proued to be ( to the ineffable greife and dislyke of all other good and sober Catholicks ) Disloyall to their Prince : Yet since the difference both of their doctrines , and circumstances of their attempts , are incomparably short and inferiour , to the doctrynes and reall insurrections of the Protestants , against their Soueraignes ; You haue no reason ( M. Vice Chancelour ) thus to insult , in galantry of such amplifying speeches against vs. Therefore I will paralell them heare together ; that so you seeing the greate disparty , may ●ecall ( for shame ) those your speeches ; and suffer your cheekes to witnes your former errour . And first touching the doctrine . The Protestants ( I meane , those former alledged Protestants ) do extend this power of deposing Princes to euery pore parochial superintendent ; who is Pope , ( or so would be ) within his owne circuit ; yea for want of such a turbulent fellow ( if at any tyme , theare can be a want of these ) they giue this liberty ( as aboue I haue showed ) to the base Common people , and promiscuous multitude ; the many headed tyrants of all humane societyes : The Catholicke deuynes , who most defend such transcendency of proceedings , do neuertheles ascrybe the doing of it to the Pope only ; who is a stranger , and therefore further of from any such sudden & present attempting ; and who himselfe in case of Heresy ( as a priuate person ) lyeth open to the same perill . This also they teach must be done , by many former sweete admonitions and proceedings . To proceede to the attempts on both sides . The Protestants haue actually deposed seuerall Kings , Queenes , and absolute soueraigns : Thus is the King of Spayne deposed , of a greater part of the Lowcontryes ; the King of France , of certaine Cittyes in France ; The supreme Lord of Geneua , of his Territory belonging to that Cittie ; The Emperour , of many Imperiall Cittyes in Germany ; King Sigismond , of his Kingdome of Sweueland and Finally his Maiesties Grandmother and Greatgrandmother , of the Kingdome of Scotland : The Pope and the Catholicks haue neuer yet to this day , actually detroned any one absolute Protestant Prince or King , throughout all Christendome , of their Sates and Territoryes . The greatest matter of this nature , that can be alledged , is the excommunications of King Henry the eight of England , Queene Elizabeth his daughter , and King Henry of France the fourth . The Protestants haue come into the fyeld against their Catholicke Princes , in many huge Armyes and hundred thousans of men ; as appeareth by the warrs made by them in the Low Countryes , France , & Germany : which warrs haue continued for many yeres : The Catholicks neuer yet leuyed any such Armyes against their protestant Prince . Lastly the Protestants haue not only deposed their Princes of seuerall states and Countryes ; but they haue really impatronized themselues of the sayd states , and keept them in their owne possession ; as is ouer manifestly euident by the examples of Rochel in France , Geneua , Holland , Zeland , seuerall parts of Germany , Sweueland , Transiluania &c. The Catholicks to this very day haue not made themselues Lords of any one towne or Citty ( much lesse of any state or Kingdome ) which haue belonged to their protestant Princes . And thus farre touching the libration and weighing in an euen hand , the doctrine and attempts taught and made by Protestāts & Catholicks in point of disloyalty , against their lawfull dread soueraigns of a different Religion . And now ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) after the true vnfoulding of these matters ( which afore were lapped vp in a great mistaking ) I demaund of you , where are your former Termini Conuertibilis of Papistry & Disloyalty ? Your similitude of one Diamond , among many worthles Saphyrs ? And D. Mortons strange beast ? As if all Papists ( and ●o Protestants ) were guilty of Treason and Rebellion , against their lawfull Princes : so fowly , you see , your selfe was mistaken therein ; and so wildly did your Doctour●aue ●aue of a whyte Ethiopian . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Michaeas . I am tyred with learning thus much of this distastfull Theame ; and I am vnwilling , you should spinne out this discours to any further lenght : Therefore you may heere end . And truly I would scarse haue beleiued till now , my owne eyes ( much lesse , my eares ) that the Protestants wrytings and actions had stood so iustly subiect to this kind of Reprehension . But I must yield ( though with greife ) to such euident testimonyes , as you haue produced ; and the rather , seeing you ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) suffer them to passe without eyther gainsaying the testimonyes alledged , or denying the Examples insisted vpon . But [ Michaeas ] notwithstanding the truth of all , what you here haue sayd ; Neuerthelesse you haue proceeded very partially in your discourse ; seeming to inuolue all Protestants within the greiuous offence of disloyalty , because some of them do deseruedly stand obnorious thereto : And you deale as iniustly herein , as if one should charge all mankind with drunkennes , because many men do sinne therein . But I feare , you repute no men loyall , but those of your owne religion . MICHAEAS . My honourable Lord. be such & ouersight far distant from my thoughts ; and God forbid , my charitable conceats should be enriched within so narrow a compasse , as Your Lordship seemes to coniecture . No. I do willingly acknowledge , that many Protestant Doctours haue in their wrytings learnedly defended the right and royalty of absolute Princes , against their subiects of a contrary religion . I also do as fully acknowledge , that theare are many thousand Protestants in the world , who ( no dowbt ) would spend their lyues and liuings in defence of their Souerain of a different fayth , whos loue , zeale , and loyalty is caried with a most forcible bent to their Princes safety and honour . What is aboue deliuered by me , is euen forcedly drawne out of me , by way of recrimination ; since M. Vice-Chancelour would neuer cease to weary your Lordship & idly beate the wynd , in obiecting Disloyalty to me and my Religion ▪ Therefore my good Lord , do not thinke , I do extend my former discours to Protestants in generall ; or particularly to the Protestants of England in these dayes , whose laudable & confessed Loyalty farre be it frō me in any sort to impugne but rather my pene shall be ready vpon iust occasion , to celebrate such their due praises thearein . But to be short , your Lordshid may obserue , that what is aboue spoken , is spoken not by me , but by the Protestants themselfs ; and acknowledged , as so spoken ( and therefore condemned ) by other learned Protestants . What dislyke then I may incure heareby , the same doth necessarily attend vpon D. Bancroft , D. Bilson , D 〈…〉 u●cliffe and other moderate protestants , condemning the foresaid protestants of disloyalty . I am but the poore Relater of their words , and can be reputed no more faulty hearein , then is the Herauld , for openly proclayming the rebellion of a subiect against his prince ; or the Printer , for printing a history , contayning the manifest confessed vices of some particuler Men. VICE-CHANCELOVR . Well , well , Michaeas . All what you haue said ( to which for this tyme , I will forbeare further to reply ) is not sufficient , to wash out the staynes of those other cryms , which you haue perpetrated in our vniuersity . You are come hither to make a rekoning for them , and not for to rauell out the tyme , in long and tedious perorations . I say , that besydes your disloyall positions , which you haue distilled into our Schollars iudgments ( which are ouer manifest , howsoeuer you do palliate them with impudent denyalls , and subtill recriminations ) you haue enuenomed some of them , with many superstitious and Popish doctrines . And not content to effect the same in words and speeches only , you haue not forborne ( so precipitious and impetuous you are in your designs ) euen to wryte certaine short Treatises of the said Popish Opinions ; geuing them to your Proselytes ▪ that so the poyson of theese your doctrines thus spreading it selfe , and multiplyed through these your aery wrytyngs ( as through a well disposed Medium ) may the more speedely affect the sense and vnderstanding of the more weake students . Now My Lord , if such a Man , who hath thus discolered the beauty and reputation of our ( otherwise ) most famous Vniuersity , shall escape vnpunished ; then insteed of due vnpunishments , let vs erect Tropheys and garlands of Honour to Men , for their attempted impietyes . And that your Lordship shall not fynde this my Accusation to be only verball ; but that you may rest assured , that this Man f perswadeth Men to worship God , contrary to the Law ; I haue heare brought vnto your L. a Copye of Michaeas his owne hand writing of euery such Papistical doctrine , by hym vented out . Heare the wrytings are , which I deliuer at this present into your L. hands to peruse at your pleasure . The which , after your L. haue red , you shall find them to be , but certaine ro●ing Paperbulletts , shot by Michaeas , against the walls of our florishing Vniuersity ; Which ( for the tyme ) may perhaps make some small crack and noyse , but cannot batter : so fortified and firmely seated our Academy is , through the strenght of the Ghospell . CERTAINE SHORT DSICOVRSES TOVCHING SOME POINTS OF CATHOLICKE RELIGION , WRITTEN BY MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND FIRST . That the preaching of the Word , and administration of the Sacraments are not the true Notes of Christs Church ; And that admitting them for such , they make wholy against the Protestants , and for the Catholicks . THIS Question will take it best illustration and vnfoulding , if it be considered ; first , Categorically and absolutly in it selfe ; To wit , whether the Administration of the Word & Sacraments can be reputed to vs , for Notes of the Church ? Secondly , Hypothetically , that is , that if by supposall it be granted for the tyme , that they are the true Notes of the Church ; Whether the said Notes do preiudice the Protestant Church , and aduantage our Catholicke Church , or no ? Both theese poynts shall heare be discussed . And first of the first . Wheare the Reader is in the beginning to vnderstand , that the true Reason , why a Caluin , the Confession of b Augusta , c D. W 〈…〉 guift , d D. Whitakers , and all other Pro 〈…〉 in generall do prescribe theese as Notes of the Church is for two respects : first , that by this meanes themselves may be Vmpiers , where and which is the true Church ; seing they alone through their misapplication of the Scripture , and priuiledge that they ascribe to their owne Spirits , interpreting the Scripture , will with a Lordly peremptorines decree and set downe , Where and when the Word is truly preached , and the Sacraments duly administred ( they reiecting all other Mens interpretation heerein ) and consequently , where and which is the true Church . The second reason of the Protestants constituting theese as Notes , is , Because on the one side they see , that the Church of Christ by force of all Reason and prudence , is to enioye some Notes , for it distinguishing from all prophane Conuenticles : And on the other side they well discouer , that the Notes of the Church assigned by Catholicke Wryters ( to wit , Antiquity , Suc●ession of Pasteurs , an ●ni●terrup●●d Visibility , Working of M 〈…〉 s , Holin●s of Life and doctrine , Vaity , and diuers others of like nature ) are by all Ecclesiasticall Authours , reason , and experience , and by the Protestants confessions , peculiar to our Catholicke Church ; and incomparible with their protestant Church . Therfore in this their want of be●te● Notes ( seing euen for very shame , some Notes their Church must haue ) they haue thought it good policy , to erect the preaching of the Word and vse of the Sacraments , as Notes : And thus they , reiecting all former Catholicke Notes , do reduce ( as aboue is said ) the determining of which is the true Church , to the inappealable and last Resort of their owne priuate opinions ; passed vpon the true preaching of the Word and the due administration of the Sacraments . But now to come to the Question it selfe , touching these Protestant Notes ; Where the ●eader ( for the more cleare setting downe of the state of the Question , and his owne better instruction ) is to conceaue ; first , that these Protestant Notes ( supposing them to be Notes of the Church ) prooue only the place , where the Church is ; but not , which is the Church ; Which here is only the Question . Secondly , the Reader is to call to mind , that whereas a Note may be of two sorts : The one in respect of Nature ; the other in respect of vs , according to the doctrine of the learned Protestants themselues , thus teaching : Nottus est duplex ; e Vnum Naturae , vlterum nobis : that here the Question is only of such Notes , as are Notes in respect of vs , for our better informing , which is the true Church ( since here we are instructed à postartori , and according to the measure of that knowledg , which God vouchsafes to affoard to vs. ) And not as they are Notes in respect of Nature ; Which Notes in regard of Nature , are euer 〈…〉 sicall secret , and often essentiall to the thing , of which they are Notes . Now in reference hereto , we free●y grant , that the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments may be tearmed Notes of the Church ; but not Notes to vs , which is the only point now isluable : for though they be Notes in Nature , of the true Church : yet what anayleth it vs : since they are not Notes to vs for our direction , to find which is the true Church ? And here we are to remember , that the Question is not , what kind of Notes , or what kind of knowledge is better ( for it is granted , that scire per Causas , is most perfect and noble ) but the Question is , what kind of knowledge God is content to imparte to vs , in this life , for the attayning of the Mysteryes of our f●●th , and particularly for the knowing & searching out , which is his Church . Now that the true preaching of the Word , and vse of the Sacraments cannot be erected as notes of Christs Church ( I euer meane in respect of vs ) is seuerall wayes demonstrated . And first , this I prooue from the Nature of a Note ; which is euer to be of a greater perspicuity and clearnes , and better knowne to vs , then the thing is , of which it is a Note . Since otherwise it should follow ( an inference both in reason and Art most absurd ) that , that which is vnknowne , should be prooued by an other thing , which is lesse knowne an● more obscure . That the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments ( which is but a necessary 〈◊〉 to the true preaching of the Scripture ) are more obscure and vnknowne to vs , then is the Church ; I prooue first , from the Scripture ; which teacheth , that true sayth ( which is the effect of true preaching the Word ) proceedeth only from the Ministery of the Church , according to that : how f shall they beleiue , whom they haue not heard ? and ho 〈…〉 sh a● they heare , without a Preacher ? Thus Gods sacred Word ( we see ) doth presuppose , that the Minister , who is the member of the Church , ( and consequently it followeth hereby , that the Church must be afore knowne ) doth reueale vnto vs the true sense of the Scripture . And therefore Caluin thus well sayth of this point : Deus g potest memo 〈…〉 sues perficere : nolit tamen eos adol●scere in 〈…〉 ilem ●tatem , nisi educatione Ecclesiae : God can pe●fect and instruct vs in a moment ( meaning touching fayth ) yet he will not bring vs to any manlike ( as it were ) and perfect strength therein , but by the help and lab●ur of the Church . And hence it is , that in all Controuersyes touching fayth , we are alwayes for the determining of them , bot● in the iudgments of the auncient h Fathers and learned Protestants i referred to the Church ; Among whom I cannot here pretermit the sentence of D. Field , thus wryting : Seeing k t●e Controuersies in our tyme are growne in number so many , and in nature so intricate &c. What remayneth for me● , d●sirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but delige●tly to search out , which among all the societyes of Men in the World , is that blessed Company of Holy Ones , that house-hould of fayth , that spouse of Christ , and Church of the living God , which is the pillar and ground of truth , that so they m 〈…〉 follow her directions , and re●i in her 〈◊〉 ? Thus we are instructed by this learned Protestant , to know which is the true fayth in all Controuersyes and sincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Word , from the Church ; and not to know , which is the Church , from the sincere preaching of the Word . Secondly , that the true prea 〈…〉 of the Word and the vse of the Sacrements ●re more ob 〈…〉 and difficult to vs to be knowne , then to know 〈◊〉 is the true Church ; appeareth from the volunt●●y acknowledgments of our most iudicious Aduersaries : For greater 〈◊〉 hearei● , I will insist only in o●e or two . And to omit the answearable iudgment hearto of D. Fyeld , potentially included in his 〈…〉 met words ; We do fynd Iustus Molitor ( a learned Protestant , and Aduersary in his 〈…〉 gs to Cardinal Be●l●rmy●e ) thus to confes : Nobis l Quo ad iud 〈…〉 s ●o f●s● al● qua notitià , prius vera Eccles 〈…〉 , quam 〈◊〉 praedicatio 〈…〉 o●escit &c. The true Church by a cert 〈…〉 co 〈…〉 , 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 k●o●ne to vs , according to the iudgment of re●son , then the preaching of the true word is knowne . With whom c 〈…〉 pireth in expr●s Words the foresaid mentioned 〈…〉 testart Lubbertus , thus wryting : Sacramenta m in v 〈…〉 nt nobis m 〈…〉 , quam ●psa Ecclesia : The true vse of the 〈…〉 ments i● lesse knowne ●o vs , 〈◊〉 the Church . And 〈◊〉 geueth his ●eason hereof in these Words : Nobis notio●a su 〈…〉 externa signa●per quae rem● qu●●doque cogn 〈…〉 ; The external signes are more man 〈…〉 st 〈◊〉 , v● , by which we know a thi●g ▪ 〈◊〉 heareby imp●ying , that the true administration of the word & Sacraments is internal and inward in respect of the true externall Notes of the Church . For although eich preaching of the Word and vse of Sacraments be externall and sub●ect to the outward Sense ; yet which is the true preaching of the word , and true administration of the Sacraments ( for as they are purely preached , and sincerely administred , so ( and no otherwise ) are they appoynted by the Protestants for the Marks of the Church ) is internal ; since truth in doctryne is internal and inuisible . We may ad hearto , that in the note of true preaching the word , the beliuing & receauing it so preached & this with perseuerance ) is included by our Aduersaries doctrine , as a part of the same Note . But how can it be known , whether the Word ( though truly preached ) be truly heard and beleiued with a final perseuerance ? So far distant is this pretended Note , from being ( for our direction ) a true Note of the Church . An other Argument for the impugning of the Protestants former Notes may be this . The Scripture it selfe cannot be made knowne to vs to be Scripture , but by the attestation of the Church : for as for that sentence , which teacheth , that the Maiesty and voyce of God , which appeareth in the Scripture , or the Priuate Spirit iudging of it , ass●eth vs , which is true Scripture , it is an exploded Errour ; Seing one Man is persuaded , he fyndeth in those books , which himselfe admitteth for scripture , that Maiesty and voyce of God : the which very books , for want of the said supposed voyce or Maiesty , an other Man vtterly reiecteth , as Apocryphil . And in lyke sort , the priuat Spirit of this Man embraceth such books , as Canonical : the which bookes the Priuat Spirit of an other absolutely discanoneth . Now this being granted , it from hence ineuitably resulteth , that first we must know , which is the true Church , to giue this approbation of the Scripture , before we can know , which is the Scripture ; and much more then , before we can be assured , which is the true preaching of the word and sincere construction or Sense of the Scripture . Now that our knowing which is Scripture , proceedeth from the authoritie of the Church , I first proue , not only from S. Austin , who saith : ( n ) Actibus Apostolorum necesse est me credere , si c●edo Euangelio ; quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholiea commendat Ecclesia : But also from the acknowledgement of our learned Aduersaries ; whose words in their wrytings to this purpose are most plentifull . I will content myselfe ( referring the Reader to the references of others o at this tyme with Peeter Martyr , and M. Hooker . Peter Martyr , thus wryteth : We p acknow ledge it to be the function of the Church ( seing it is endued with the Holy Ghost ) that it should discerne the true and proper books of Scripture . M. Hooker more fully 〈…〉 th heare of , saying q Of thing necessary , the very cheifest is to know , what bookes we are to 〈◊〉 ●●ly ; Which poynt is confessed impossible , for the Scripture it selfe to teach &c. For r of any Booke of Scripture did geus testimony to ●ll ; et sti● that Scripture , which geneth credit to the rest , world require ●n other Scripture to g●ue credit vnto it : Neither could we come to any pa●se , whe reon to rest vnles besids Scripture , theare were something , which might assurs vs. Which thi●g M. Hocke●man other place articulatly ●earmeth : The s authority of Gods Church , thus saying : We all know , the 〈◊〉 outward Motyue leading Men to esteeme of the Scripture , is the authority of the Church . Now if by these learned Mens con●ession , the Church hath authority to propownd to vs , which bookes presented for Scripture , are true Scriptures and which are Apocry● hall and spurious ; then followeth it , that the Church hath in lyke sort authority to propownd to vs , which is the true and pure sense of the Scripture ; since the one is as necessarye to vs , as the other ; for it aduantageth vs litle to know , which are the vndoubted bookes of Scripture , if so we know not which is the true sense of the Scripture . Now out of the Premisses I demonstratiuely conclude , that seing by the authority of the Church ( and not otherwise ) we are tought which ●ookes of Scripture are Canonicall , and consequently which is the true sense of the said Scripture ; that therefore the Church being f●ster in ode● of knowledg to vs , then either the Scripture , or the true preaching of the word of Scripture ; the true preaching of the word is not , nor can be apprehended to be a Note to vs , to find thearby which is the true Church . Since then it would follow ( an absurdity incompatible with all true discours of Reason ) that a thing , which to vs is later knowne , should be a Note to vs of that , which by vs is first knowne . An other argument may be drawne from the Nature of euery true Note ; which ought to be so peculiar to that , of which it is a Note , as that it cannot be applyed in the iudgment of others to it meare Contrary : But we see different sectaryes teaching contrary doctrynes , and professing themselfs to be members of different Churches , do all neuertheles promiscuously challenge the true preaching of the Words , and the vse of the Sacrements to be the Notes of their so much discording Churches or Conuenticles . And therefore the afore named Lubbertus thus truly pronounceth of this poynt : * Praedicatio , Sacramentorum communicatio , & similia , Ecclesiae essentiam non attingunt ; sunt enim Haereticorum conuerticulis & veris Christianorum Ecclesi●s communia : The preaching of the word , the distribution of the Sacraments , and such like , do not belong to the essence of the Church since these things are common both to the Conuenticles of Hereticks , and to the true Churches of Christians . And according hearto we find by experience , that Lutherans , Protestants , and Puritās theaching most repugnante doctrines , do wartant these their doctrines , by the former Notes of preaching the Word . And therefore it from hence followeth , that it is no lesse a madnes in our aduersaries , to prescrybe the preaching of the word and the vse of the Sacraments , for the notes of the Church ( which are common to all Hereticall Conuenticles at least in their owne Opinion ) then for one , who would discouer and note out one particular Man from all others , to distinguish him from them , by saying : It is he , who hath two eyes , one nose , one mouth , two armes &c. Since these Notes or description are common to all men in generall . Againe , I thus dispute . A true Note of any thing ought to be at all tymes ( without discontinuance ) a Note theareof , and not sometymes only : since otherwise it is but a temporary Note . But theare hath bene a Church of God euen then , when there was no Scripture at all : much lesse any preaching or interpretation of the Word Therefore the preaching of the word cannot be erected , as a true Note of the Church . The Assumption of this argument is manifest : For it is acknowledged , that the Church of God continued two thousand yeres before Moyses his tyme , without any Scripture : and therefore D. Parkins truly thus saith : Morses u was the first pennman of Holy Scripture ; With whom agree x Zanchius , D. y Whitakers , and all other learned Men whosoeuer . Againe after Moyses had pened the Scripture , it remayned only in the custody of the Iewes , and was among them for many yeres lost ; as it is granted euen by the marginall annotations of the English Bibles of the yere 1576. where it is said : That z it was either by the negligence of the Priests lost , or by the wickednes of idolatreus Kings . And yet euen in those tymes Iob and diuers others were of the true Church of God : of which poynt peruse S. a Austin . Furthermore Irenaeus b saith , that theare were diuers Coūtryes of Christians , which beleiued only by preaching and by force of Tradition , without enioying any Scripture at all . And it is certaine , that after our Sauiours passion , theare was a distance of tyme , before any part of the New Testament was written . And after when it was penned , what partly by violence of persecution , and partly through scarsity of Manuscripts , the New Testament could but come to the hands of few , in respect of the whole number of Christians then in being : which being true : how then could the Scripture or the preaching of the Word be a knowne Marke , to all other Christians of those dayes ? Neyther auayleth it heere to reply , that whatsoeuer was then deliuered by Tradition , was agreeing and answerable to what was afore or after written by the Apostles & Euangelists . This satisfyeth not the point ; seing admitting so much for true ; yet what was then deliuered , was receaued by the hearers through the authority only of the Church , and not by Note or direction of the Scripture ; which is the point here concrouerted . But to proceede further . I do aue●re , that this Position of erecting the preaching the word for a Note , for the ignorant to fynd out the true Church , implyeth in it selfe an absolute contradiction . The reason is this First euery true Note of anything , must first be knowne it selfe to the party so ignorant and doubting : But it is impossible , that the true preaching of the Word should be knowne to one , as long as he con●nues ignorant or doub●f●ll ; therefore it is impossible , that to such a man the true preaching of the Word should become a Note of the Church . Secon●ly , True sayth is no sooner knowne , but that withall the true Church is knowne ; Therefore true preaching of the Word ( from whence springs true sayth ) cannot be any Note of the Church : Since that thing , of which any Note is giuen , ought not to be coincident with the Note ; but is to be knowne after the Note is knowne ; and not immediatly at o●● and the same tyme with the Note ; seing the end of the Note is after to know a thing , of which it is a Note . My last argument here vsed shal be taken from the consideration of the obscurity and difficulty in generall of the Protestant Note here giuen . For if the Scripture be in it selfe most sublime , abstruse , and the sense thereof impenetrable without Gods directing grace therein ; how then can it be obtruded for a Note of the Church , not only to the learned , but to the illiterate and vnlearned ? Now that the Scripture is most difficult , is a point acknowledged by all learned men , and prooued by senerall Media . First because the Scripture is authenticall only in the originalls , according to those words of D. Whitakers : c Nullam nos editionem , nisi Hebraicam in vetere , & Graecam 〈◊〉 Nouo Testament● authen●●cam facimus . This being admitted , how can the ignorant in the Hebrew and Greeke tongues , know which is true Scripture , or which is the true sense of the Scripture ? Yf it be replyed , that they are to know true Scripture from the Translations of it , I say hereto that ( besydes no Translation of Scripture ●s authenticall Scripture , both in the former Doctours iudgement , as also in the censure of D. d Couell ) seing there are many Translations made of Scripture by the Protestants , and one mainly differing from an other , and accordingly eich such translation is charged as Hereticall and erroneous by other Protestants , the ignorant in the tongues cannot discerne which translation among so many is the truest . And as touching the English Translation in particular , it is thus condemned by the Protestants themselues : e A Translation ; which taketh away from the text ; which addeth to the Text ; and that sometymes to the changing or obscuring of the meaning of the Holy Ghost . And yet more : A Translation , which is absurd , and senselesse , peruerting in many places the meaning of the Holy Ghost . Now then if the ignorant , who can but reede , is thus stabled , how shall all they do , who cannot reede at all ? And yet to all such Men God ( who f would haue all men saued ) hath left some meanes for their direction , to find out the true Church ; which meanes must be sutable to their capacity and in themselues infallible ; seeing otherwise they cannot produce true fayth , without which the vnlearned cannot be saued . The like difficulty of the scripture appeareth , not only from the seeming contrary places of the scripture ; one text in shew of words impugning an other ; all which to reconcyle ( though in themselues they are reconcileable ) there is no small difficulty : But also euen from the many Comments of the scripture , made euen by the Protestants . For if the scripture be easy and facill , to what end do thēselues bestow such labour and paynes in illustrating of it ? And if it be of such difficulty , as that it needeth Commentaryes for it further explanation , how then can the true sense of it be prostituted ( especially to the vnlearned ) as a true Note of the Church ? Lastly , the difficulty of the sense of the scripture is so great , as that it selfe needeth other more cleere Notes ( as I may call them ) to make it selfe knowne ; without which Notes it selfe resteth most doubtfull And yet are these second Notes in themselues most vncertaine . The Notes for the finding out of the true sense of the scripture , are in D. ( g ) Reynolds and D. ( h ) Whitakers iudgments , these following : Reading of the Scripture Conference of Places , we●g●●●g the Circumstances of the text , Skill in 〈…〉 gues Prayer &c. In the obseruation of all which , a Man stands neuerthelesse subiect to errour and false construction of the scripture , euen by the iudgment of D. Whitakers , thus saying : i Q●●l●à ●ll●medi● su●● &c. Such as the meanes of i●terpreting the obscu●e places of the scripture are , such also is the interpretation but them 〈…〉 es of in●●●p e●ing obscure places are incerta , dubià , & ambigua , vncertaine , doubtfull and amb●guous : Therefore it necessarily followeth , that the interpretation it selfe is vncertaine ; si incerta , tunc potest esse f 〈…〉 sa , and if it be vncertaine , then may it be false . Thus farre D. Whitakers . Now I referre to any Mans impartial iudgment , how the true preaching of the Word ( which euer presupposeth the true sense thereof ) can be a certaine and infallible Note of the true Church ; when itselfe necessarily ●elyeth vpon meanes , as Notes of it ; which meanes are in themselues vncertaine ; and at the most can affoard but a doubtfull , and perhapps a false construction of the Scripture ? And here now I can but commisserate our aduersaries : who seing themselfs enui●oned in these strayts , touching the finding out of the true sence of the Scripture , by Men vnlearned , vnskilfulle in the tongues , and perhaps not able to reade ( and consequently touching this their mayntayned Note of the Church ) are ●●nally and for their last refuge , enforced to compart hearein with the very An●baptists ; fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture , to the testimony of Gods Spirit , and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost . Sortably hearto we find , that the foresaid D. k Whitakers ( to re●er others l to the Margent ) thus wryteth : Omnes linguarum imperiti &c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues , though they cannot ●udge of places whether they be truly translated or not ; yet they appr●●e and allowe the doctrine , being instructed by the Holy Ghost . Thus he . O you m sensles Galatians , who haue bewitched you ? For may not any ●obler , Wibstar , or other Mecanical fellow ( as by experience we daily find they do ) flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture ; at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof , to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy ●ho 〈…〉 ? Which being granted , what Heresies so absurd , which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne ? And thus far to proue , that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments ) which resulteth , as aboue is said , by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching ) cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs , for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ ; within which we are bound ( vnder payne of eternall damnation ) to implant our selses . I will su●uect to th● Premisses this pertinent a●imaduersion following . It is this . When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants , to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church : And they answe●ri●g , that that Church is the true Church , which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word , and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments . Now heare I auer , that this description of Notes is but our owne question , re●ur●ed vs back in other tearms ; and consequently but a Sophisme , ●●nsisti●g in an idle circulation of the same poynt , in●ested with a new forme of words . For when I demand , which is the true Church ; I vertually , implicitly , and according to the immediate meaning of my Words , demaūd which Church is that , which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments : since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments : The Protestants then answearing , that that is the true Church , whearein are fo●d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments , do they not giue me back my owne Question , varyed in other phrazes ? being no other thing in sense then to say : That Church , which enioyeth the true preaching of the word ; & due vse of the Sacraments , is that Church , which en●●yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments : Most absurde , being but : Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem , iustly exibilated out of all schooles . Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church ; Admonishing the Reader of one thing : to wit , that whereas S. Austin s and other Doctours do say , that out of the Scriptures , we learne , which is the Church . This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture , wheare the Church is : but this , not as from a Note of the Church ( which is the poynt only heare issuable ) but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church ; in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be . In this next place , we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically , and by supposall only ; That is , we will imagin for the tyme , that the true preaching of the Word , and due administration of the Sacraments , are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd , what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein : Caluin thus saith : Pastoribus u & Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia &c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours , to preach the Word and administr●r the Sacraments . Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words : The x ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary , to the being of a Church . Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme , That * the said Notes being present do constitute a Church , being absent , do subuert it . Now all this being granted , I confidently auer , that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries : since it irrephably proueth , that the Protestant Church hath bene ( contrary to the Nature of the true Church ) at seuerall tymes ( or rather for seuerall ages together ) wholy extinct and annihilated . Sine during many ages , it hath bene vterly voyde & depryued of Pastours and Doctourr , to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments . That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours , to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments , is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestāt Church for many Ages ; concerning which subiect , I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted ●ew , out of which , I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants . First then Sebastianu Francus ( a Protestant heretofore alledged ) thus wryteth : For y certayne through the worke of Antichrist , the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departu●e ; and for these thousand foure hundred yeres , the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible . D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth : We z say , that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres , an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth ; and that our Church was not then visible to the World. In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church , Caluin had iust reason ( as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true ) thus to say . a Factum est , vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit &c. It was brought to passe , that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away , for the space of certaine ages . The perspicuity of which poynt ( I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages ) will more easely appeare , if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy ; of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell ; as taking his doctryne to be the truth : b The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme , and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell . Thus we see , that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes , ( to wit , the preaching of the Word , and Administration of the Sacraments ) during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility ; And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs , assigning the said Notes , for the Notes of the true Church . Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare , then the former poynt , for seing it is granted , that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church , till the end of World , for the administration of the Word and Sacraments ; as not only D. Fulke , and other learned Protestants do teach ; but also is euidently proued in the fore-said mentioned Second Part of the Conuerted Iew : And seing an vnterrupted preaching of the Word and administratian of the Sacraments hath euer ( by the lyke Confession of our learned Aduersaries ) bene in our Catholicke Church ; Therefore it may inauoydably be concluded , that either our Catholicke Church ( as euer enioying the former imposed Notes ) is the only true Church of Christ ; Or ( which is most absurd in it selfe , and repugnant to infinit places of Holy Scripture ) that there hath beene ( for seuerall ages ) no true Church of Christ at all , extant vpon the face of the Earth . That the Catholicke Roman Church enioyeth the preaching of the Word , and administration of the Sacraments ( besides the euidency of the truth thereof other wise ) is confessed by D. Field , c who speaking of Luther and others , acknowledgeth , that they receaued from the Church of Rome their Baptisme , Christianity , Ordination , and power of Ordination : By Luke Osiander , thus wryting : Ecclesia , d que sub Papatufuic &c. The Church , which was vnder the Papacy , when Luther was borne , was the Church of Christ ; for it had the ministery of the Ghospell , the sacred ●eriptures Baptisme , the Lords supper &c. and finally ( to omit many others ) by Luther himselfe thus acknowledging : e N●s fatema● &c. We confesse , that there is vnder the Papacy , true Scrpture , true Baptisime , the true Sacrament of the Altar , the true keres for the remission of Sinnes , the true office of preaching , true Catechisme . Thus Luther . And here with I end touching further discourse of this subiect : remitting to the euen and impartiall censure the more sober Protestant : whether the danger and detriment , which fall vpon our Aduersaryes , by erecting the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments , for Marke● of Christs Church ( granting them for the tyme , to be the marks thereof ) do not by many degrees ouerballance the aduantage , which our Aduersaryes ( by pretending them for Notes ) do hope to gaine . Since as by such their pretence , they on the one side , labour to reduce the knowing which is the true Church , to their owne priuat Iudgments ( which euery learned and iudicious man at the first sight expoldeth , for an impostute ) so on the other side , they are forced euen by most necessary Inferences ( resulting out of their owne doctrine herein ) first to grant , that the Protestant Church , as for many ages , by their owne acknowledgments , wanting the said Notes ( being essentiall to the true Church ) hath for the sayd ages ( contrary to the Nature of Christs true Church ) beene vtterly extinct , and not in being . Secondly , that during the sayd centuryes or ages , our Catholicke & Roman Church ( through it euer enioying of these Protestant Notes ) is the true Church ; or that otherwise , there hath beene no true Church of Christ , in all that great compasse of yeres ; Which last point to affirme , is most repugnant to God sacred f Writ . That the Pope and Church of Rome may ( vpon most vrgent Occasions ) sometimes dispence with some degrees of Mariadge , prohibited in Leuiticus ; And that in so dispensing the Law of Nature ( which euer bindeth ) is not violated or transgressed by them . THE explanation of th● Question taketh it source from this one Proposition : To wit ; All the preceps , which are deliuered in Leuiticus ( touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge ) do not bind Christians by deuyne law , to obserue them . Which proposition or sentence being once confirmed and fortifyed ; it then followeth , that the Church of Christ and the Head thereof , may vpon iust and most vrgent occasion dispense without any sinne , with some degrees prohibited in Leu●●icus . For the better vnfoulding and vnderstanding of this one proposition , we are first to conceaue , that both the Catholicks and Protestants do teach : That the precepts of Leuiticus do not oblige Christians , as they are properly Leniticall ; that is , as they are Positiue and Iudic●all ; but only as they are Naturall ; that is , as they are prohibited by the law of Nature . Now the Catholicks do further teach , that as some preceps in Leuiticus are Naturall ; so some other preceps are not naturall , but meerely iudiciall ; and therefore may be dispensed with , by Christ his Church , as the Councell of Trent a affirmeth ; Whereas our Aduersaryes mantayne , that all the precepts of Leuiticus are Naturall ; and therefore ●ich of them indispensable by the Church . Now here we are to remember , that those are Naturall precepts , which are knowne for such only by the light of nature , without any discourse : or at least , which are knowne for such , by a most small discourse of Reason : And these precepts are the same among all Men , in all nations and tymes , both for the knowledge of them , and for the rectitude and iustnes of them . Now such precepts , as for the knowing of thē , do neede supernaturall light , are called : Diuina positiua , diuine Positions : And those other Precepts , which receaue their establishment by humane discourse , from the Prince or Magistrate , are styled : Humana , humana Constitutions : and these are not the same among all men and in all nations . Now then this iustly presupposed : The first proposition , to wit. That all the Precepts deliuered in Leuiticus ( touching the degrees prohibited in Mariadge ) do not bynd Christians by diuine Law , to obserue them . Is proued . First , from the consideration of the different punishments , appointed in the twentith of Leuiticus against those , who transgresse in Ma●iadge the different degrees , prohibited in the eighteenth of Leuiticus Thus for example , we there fynd , that Mariadge contracted in the first degree of Affinity in the right line , God punisheth with death , and compareth it with adultery and sodomy : Which are manifestly against the Law of Nature . The same punishment of death is there apointed for such , as marye in the first degree of Consanguinity in a collaterall line ; as when the Brother maryeth the Sister . But now in the second degree of consanguinity in the collaterall line ( as when the nephew maryeth his Fathers sister , or the Mothers sister ) this Mariadge is punished with a lesse and more gentill punishment . In like sort , mariadge in the first degree of Affinity in the collaterall line ( as when one maryeth the wife of his brother being dead ; and in the second degree ; to wit , when the nephew maryeth the wife of his vncle ) is not punished with death of the parties , so contracted ; but only with priuation of children : That is , that the children begotten in such a mariadge , should not be as●rybed or reputed the childrē of their said patents . Now this punishment euidently showeth , that these mariadges are not prohibited by the Law of Nature ; since the light of Naturall Reason doth not dictate to all Men , that the former chastisement is a iust punishment of the foresayd kind of mariadge . Secondly , the former proposition or sentence is thus prooued . If all the precepts of Leuiticus ( touching the degrees of mariadge ) were ordayned by the law of nature ; then followeth it , that they should be vniuersall ; so as all mariadges contracted within the degrees there prohibited , should be vnlawfull . For what is prohibited by the Law of Nature , is in all tymes and places prohibited ; as euen the Protestants do mantayne . But Moyses hath prohibited Leuiticus certaine mariadges , and hath permitted other mariadges in the same degree . Therefore this prohibition in Leuiticus proceedeth not from the law of nature ; but is meerely iudiciall and positiue : and consequently dispensable . The Assumption of this argument is euident : for the Law of Leuiticus doth forbid mariadge of the nephew with his Aunt , either by his Fathers or his Mothers side ; and yet it forbiddeth not mariadge of the Vncle either of the Fathers side or Mothers side , with the Neese eyther of the Brother or the sister : And yet the nephew & the aunt are in the same degree , in which the vncle and the neese are . In like sort Leuiticus forbiddeth mariadge with the wife of the brother , though dead ; and yet it doth not forbid mariadge with the sister of the wife , except the wife be aliue ; and consequently , it forbiddeth not with the sister of the wife being dead : And yet there is one & the same degree of affinity with the sister of the wife , and the wi●e of the brother . Thirdly , the foresaid verity is thus prooued : If all the preceps ( touching the prohibition of degrees in Leuiticus ) were Naturall , & binding by the law of nature ; then they should at all tymes be bynding , even before the Law was Queene of them . As we see , that the Law of not killing , of committing adultery , of not stealing &c. were obliging , before the law of these Precepts were giuen to the Iewes by Moyses . Now if the foresaid Lawes touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge , were euer and at all tymes binding ; Then Men of sanctity and in high grace and fauour with God , would neuer haue contracted mariadges within those prohibited degrees : But there are federall examples of holy Men , who in the law of nature , did contract mariadge within the degrees prohibited in Leuiticus . According hereto we fynd , that the Patriarch Iacob did take to wifes , two sisters , both liuing togeather : to wit , Lia and Rachael , as we ●eede in Genesis : b But this is expressely forbidden in the eighteenth of Leuiticus : it being the first degree of affinity in the Collaterall line . In like sort , Iudas c ( the Patriarch ) did giue in mariadge to his second Sonne , the wife of his first Sonne , being dead : and the second sonne after dying , Iudas promised her to his third sonne : And yet this degree is prohibited in Leuiticus : since it is ( as the former was ) the first degree of affinity in the Collaterall line . Neyther can it be replyed agaynst these examples , & some others of this nature here omitted : That these Patriarchs did sinne in contracting the foresayd mariadges : for although Holy Men ( such as they were ) may , as men , sinne : yet still to liue and dye in this state without repentance , supposing it to be sinne ( as Iacob and Iudas did ) is not incident to vertuous men , and such as be the friends of God. Ad hereto , that if we grant , that the precepts of Leuiticus do euer bind in conscience : thē followeth it , that not only Iacob and Iudas did sinne : but also that the Sonnes of them both were bastards and illegitimate . Neither will that second Euasion ( geuen by some ) satisfy the former Examples . Which is , that God did dispence in the said Mariages , through some intended Mistery . This cannot be iustified , seing we reade in the twentith eight of Genesis , that two Sister were ioyned in Mariadge to one Man. Thus did Laban who ( when he had de●eaued Iacob in obtruding to him one Sister , for an other ) offend him the other whom he accepted : Neither was this Act reprehended by any , netheir repented of , as being an ouersight . Which if it had bene vnaccustomed and singular , and such as might iustly beget a scandall ; No dowbt the blessed Man Iacob would either not haue donne it , or a● lest would haue warranted the doing of it with some reason . The lyke is euident in the fact of Iudas , who , when he ioyned the wyfe of one brother to an other Brother , insisted not in any dispensation from God for warranting this his Act : but vrged only the reason of the Custome : to wit to the end that the seede and ospring of the dead Brother might be raysed vp . Lastly , the former Proposition touching the prohibited degrees in Leuiticus , is pro●ed out of Deutcronomy wheare it is d commanded , that if any one dye without children , his Brother shall mary his wife , that so he may raise vp issue to his dead Brother . Now h●e●e it can not be sayd , that this Law in Deut●onomy commandeth any thing against nature : since it is most absurd , that the Authour of nature should impug●● and crosse nature . Therefore from hence we may conclude , that it is not against the law of nature , but that for some most important & iust reasons some prohibited degrees in Leuiticus may be dispensed with . Now for the slauing of these two contrary lawes in Leuiticus and Deutronomy ( that so the scripture be not contrary to the Scripture ) we are to obserue ( according to the iudgment of the Learned ) that matrimony with the wife of the deceased Brother , is not prohibited in Leuiticus : but only as such a mariadge is considered in it selfe nakedly , simply , and abstracted from all Circumstances : euen as manslaughter is taken in the Decalogue , when it is sayd : Thou shalt not kill . Which law of Leuiticus doth not hinder , why there may not after be ordayned some particular positiue Lawes , which may prohibit mariadge with the wife of the Brother , according to some circumstance : and yet according to other circumstances , may warrant and iustify the said mariadge . Euen as the foresaid law in the decalogue : Thou shalt not kill : doth not let , but that particular lawes and decrees may be ordayned , which may command a theefe or a murtherer to be killed : and may also command , that he shall not be killed , who killeth another eyther by chance , or in his owne defence . Now if against the former doctryne , deliuered in this question of prohibition of degrees in Leuiticus : It be obiected , that S. Iohn Baptist ( whose ministery imposed an end to the old law ) did confirme the precept of Leuiticus of not marying the wife of the Brother , when he sayd to Herod : e It is not lawfull for thee , to haue the wife of thy Brother : And therefore howsoeuer this point was in the old law : yet now it is not lawfull , but wholy indispensable . I answere hereto , and first say , that if we speake of the change and abrogation of the Law , Christ only , and not Saint Iohn Baptist did impose an end to it : though it be granted , that Saint Iohn Baptist was the last Prophet of the old Law. I further say , that it was not lawfull for Herod ( euen according to the Lawe of Leuiticus ) to haue the wyfe of his Brother : because an O●pring was then begottē of that former Mariadg ( to wit , the daughter of Herodiades , who so pleased the King with dansing , that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist ) That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades , begotte by the Brother of Herod , is acknowledged by the testimony of f Chrisostome : Secondly , I further answeare to this example of Herod : that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest , but also adultery : since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother , he being yet liuing , as S. g Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes : and h Iosephus auerreth the same . Thus far then of this poynt , to show that all the Precepts of Le●iticus ( touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg ) are not commanded by the law of Nature : and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law , for the euer obseruing of them : But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable : And consequently that the Church of Christ may ( vpon most vrgent Occasions ) sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts . Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloq●y of our Aduersaries : charging the Pope , that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament : consequently by his owne doctrine , vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament : which was first instituted by Christ , and therefore inaltorable by Man. To which false aspertion I answeare , that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue , that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman ( since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter . ) but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg , Christ did not appoint or set downe ; but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed , Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament . Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine , who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons , for the contracting of mariadge ; And in this sort , the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament : But doth not , nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge . And herewith I conclude this short discours , touching this subiect . That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ , or reiect those words in the Decalogue . Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c. But that they willingly acknowledge them , as part of the Decalogue : howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechis●es and Primars . VVHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale ( through their affected fraud ) in their Catechis●nes and Primars one commandement , and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ ; To wit : Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image , nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen , or on earth beneath : neyther of those things , which are in the waters vnder the earth : Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them &c. This ( I say ) is eyther a fraudulent , or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries . For the truth is , those words ( heere recited ) do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me ; these later being but a more full explication of the first words ; and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements . This is thus prooued : Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements ; but only that , which may be truly called an Idoll ; that is an Image , which is taken for God ; or which representeth God to be that thing , which God is not . Therefore when it is sayd . Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden ; But in those first words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me : the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited : Of which point most at large Saint Austin a discourseth . Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God , appeareth ; in that the Scripture telleth vs , that God himselfe commanded Images to be made : According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings , b that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins , Lyons and Oxen to be made : In the Booke of Numbers , c the brazen serpent ; And in Exodus d the Images of the Cherubin to be made . From whence we may infallibly conclude , that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God , as a distinct precept from the first ; but only so farre forth , as the Images be taken for God ; and consequently that ( as is aboue said ) these words ( forbidding the making of Images ) do but make one & the same Commandement with the first words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me . And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements ; as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine . Againe . Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited , in the former words of the Decalogue ; then should it follow , that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten , but eleuen or twelue ; an inference incompatible with the Scripture e it selfe , which in expresse words teacheth , that there are but ten Commandements . The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued . It is granted on all sides , that those words : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me , is one Precept . That , thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne , is an other . A third : Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day . A fourth ; Honour thy Father and thy Mother . A fift ; Thou shalt not kill . A sixt : Thou shalt not commit adultery . A seauenth : Thou shalt not steale . An eight . Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour . A ninth : Thou shalt no● couet &c. Now that : Thou shalt not couet &c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts ▪ so as the ninth Precept shal be : Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife ; the tenth : Thou shalt not co●ct thy neighbours Oxe , nor his Asse , nor any thing , that is his . Or els those word : Thou shalt not couet &c. with all the words following to wit , his Wife , his Oxe , his Asse , or any thing , that is his ; do make but one precept or Commandement . Yf they ought to be deuided into two ; then followeth it , that those words : Thou shalt not make any grauen ●mage &c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement ( contrary to the Scripture ) or that , this is not a distinct precept frō the first , videlicet : Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me . As Clemens Alexander : f Saint g Austin , all schoolemen , and Latin Catechismes do teach . And then it followeth , that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words ; but only that , which is taken for an other God. Now if supposing further , that that : thou shalt not couet &c. be only one Precept ( as some other fathers do hould ) then ( to make vp the tenth Commandement ) all those words : Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image &c. thou shalt not adorethem , nor worship them &c. do concurre to make vp one Precept or Commandement . But absolutly and simply to make Images , and to adore or worship them being made , are two different things in themselues ; because one man may adore an Image , which he did not make ; and an other Man may make an Image , and yet not adore it . Therefore only one of these two things is prohibited in the foresayd words . ( Since otherwise there should be eleuen Commandements : ) But it is certayne , that the worshipping of Images in place of God , is forbidden ; Therefore the absolute making of them is not forbidd●n ; but only with reference of worshipping them insteed of God. Now the Schoolemen , and all Latin Catechismes , & Primars do follow herein the first opinion of S. Augustin ; to wit , that those words : thou shalt not make any grauen Image &c. do make but one Commandement , with the first Precept of not worshipping other Gods. And therefore Primars and Catechismes , intending but breifly and in few words , to set downe the ten Commandements , do omit to set downe that : thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image &c. thou shalt not adore them &c. because ( as is said ) these words are implicitly included in the first Commandement . In like sort , and for the same cause of briefly setting downe the ten Commandements ; we find , that Latin Cathechismes and Primars do omit to set downe diuers words immediatly following in Exodus , and belonging to the Commandement of keeping the Saboath day , holy . The words omitted are these : Six dayes thou shalt labour , and doe all thy worke ; but the seauenth day is the Saboath of thy Lord , thy God &c. Besides many other words there following . The same course the Catechisms and Primars take in setting downe the Commandement of honoring thy Father and thy Mother : where these words following are also for b●euity omitted : that thy dayes may be prolonged vpon the land , which the Lord , thy God giueth thee . Now is it not a loose and dissolute kind of reasoning , thus to argue : The Papists do purposely conceale and labour , to put out of holy Scripture , diuers passages immediatly following & belonging to the Commandements of keeping the Saboath day , holy ; and of honoring thy Father and Mother : because ( for greater breuity ) they do not set downe the said passages ( being but meere explications of the sayd Commandements ) in their Cathechismes and Primars , when they make recitall of the ten Commandements . And yet we see , the Protestants do euen in the same manner argue most wildly against the Catholicks , for not setting downe those words : Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauē Image &c. Yf the Protestants could prooue , that any one Catholicke did say or mantaine , that the said words of not making Images , were not Scripture , and were not spoken by God , in the deliuery of the ten Commandements to Moyses : then they had iust reason , to charge the Catholicks with great Impiety herein : But this is impossible for the Protestants to do . And therefore this accusation of the Protestants against the Catholicks herein , is an errour ( as in the beginning was intimated ) compounded of malice and ignorance : where ( I thinke ) the greater Ingredient is malice . And thus much touching the supposed raizing and expunging out of one Commandement by the Catholicks . The Catholicke Doctrine touching Images . TOuching Images the Catholicks do teach two things . First , that lawfully they may be had and kept , by reason of the profit proceeding from them . Secondly , that we hauing them , may lawfully geue vnto them a peculiar respect or worship ( aboue other prophane things ) as they are things consecrated vnto religious vses . Touching the Vtility . This we find in them . First , they do instruct the ignorant , and such as cannot reade ; and therefore they are worthely called : a Libri illiter atorum , by some of the fathers . And hence it is , that the picture is so made , as that for the most part , it contayneth in it selfe a short abstract or Compendium of the history of him , of whom it is the Image : Thus for example , When Christ is painted either in the shape of a yonge Child in the bosome of his mother ; or in the forme of a Man , tyed to a Pillar to be whipped ; or hanging vpon the Crosse ; or rysing from the graue : or ascending to Heauen &c. And so the ignorant by behoulding the pictures , are theareby put in remembrance of the Incarnation , the Passion , the Resurrection , and the Ascention of our Lord and Sauiour . And the lyke may be said of the pictures of Saincts : who are commonly pictured in such sort , as that the picture doth descrybe some cheiffe part of their Sanctity , sufferance , Martyrdome , or power and authority . ) as for example , S. Lawrence is commonly pictured lying vpon the gridiron , and so of other Saincts ) And thus secondarily it resulteth from hence , that Images are profitabl● to 〈…〉 our Loue towards God , and his Saincts : Seing we see by experience , that who loueth , doth most willingly behould and comtemplate the Image of the partye , so beloued by him . Lastly and principally , Images do greately healpe vs in tyme of prayer ; for seeing and behoulding them at that tyme , they presearue in vs the Memory of Christ and his Saincts : and so●n time of prayer our thoughts are fixed with greater eleuation of mynd vpon Christ and his Saincts , by reason of the pictures ●eare present . Now this is to be vnderstood that whē we pray , we neither pray to the Pictures , nor honour them with the honour due to God ( for this is the Protestants willfully mistaken assertion , most wrongfully laid to our charge ) but only in presence of them , we do in tyme of prayer , prosecute God with that supreme reuerence and honour , which is peculiar to himselfe alone . This is the true vse , which we Catholicks make of Images in tyme of our Deuotions . But now before we come to entreate of the worship of Images in particular ; we are to conceaue , that according to all learned b Schoolemen , Adoration or worship of any thing containeth in it selfe three different Acts. The first , is an Act of the Vnderstanding by the which we apprehend the excellen●y of any thing : The second , the Act of the Will ; by the w●●ch we are inwardly moued to manifest or protest our Worship , by some exteriour or interiour Act : The third , is an exteriour Act : by the which we moue our hat , or bow our leg , or show some other externall signe in manifestation of our inward worship geuen . Of which three Acts , the second ( which is of the Will ) is most e●entiall ; seeing the first may be without Adoration , and the third with ●rision and scorne ; as the Iewes worshipped our Sauiour vpon the Crosse . Heare further we are to remember , that that worship , which is geuen to God alone , is a cheife and supreme prostration and inclination of the Will , with the apprehension of God , as the first beginning and last ending of all things : and therefore as our cheife Good : and is called by the Deuynes , Latria : and cannot be communicated without Idolatry to any Creature . Worshipps geuen to Creatures are distinguished , according to the different degrees of excellencyes in the Creatures . And so according to the different degrees of the worth of Creatures , the worship exhibited is seuerally called : as dulia , s●perdulia , cultus religiosus , and cultus ciuilis . Lastly , it is further to be obserued , that by the exteriour Act , it is not easy to distinguish the seuerall kynds of worshipps : For almost all exteriour Acts ( sacrifice only excepted ) are common to euery kynd of worship . And according hearto wee recde , that Abraham with the same act of bowing his body to the ground , did adore God , Genes . 17. did worship Angells . Genes . 18. And did worship Men , Genes . 23. In lyke sort , all men do vse to kneele to God in their prayers : to their Prince or King : and to their owne parents : yet with disparity of honour to eich of theese . And heare is the source and fountayne of the Protestats mistaking , who hearing that Catholicks do sometymes exhibit part of that externall worship to Creatures , which is geuen to God : do instantly exclayme forth in this , or the lyke maner ; Se how the Papists commit Idolatry to Creatures : see how they pray to stocks and stones : Poore Men , I commiserate their Ignorance who so much mistake the true meaning of the Catholickes practise . Now then the former doctryne presupposed , touching the worship geuen to Images : This ensuing is the Catholicke doctryne : c Images of Christ and his Saincts are to be worshipped and honored with a peculiar respect ; so as neither any Confidence be placed in the Images : neither any petityon be made to them , nor that it be bele●ued , that theare is any Diuinity in them . And this honour , being but an inferiour kind of religious worship , ascrybed to things consecrated to holy ends ( as is euer presumed ) is geuen them only for the persons sake , of whom they are Images , and whom they represent . This is proued by the example of the Images of the Cherubins , d appointed by God to be placed ouer the Arke : and by the Image of the brasen Serpent , in lyke sort appointed by God ( which as we reade in Iohn c. 3. was the figure of Christ . ) But to both theese the Iewes gaue a peculiar worship , as to things ordayned to religious vses : For how could they adore the Arke , but withall they must adore the Images of the Cherubin ? Or how could not the brasen Serpent but be worshipped by the Iewes : when it being seated in a high place by Gods command , did cure those , which locked vpon it ? But now I here inferre , that if it were lawfull to worship the Images of Angells ( I euer meane , with that respect , due to conseciated things ) then by the same reason , it is lawfull to worship the Images of Saincts departed . And if the bras●n Serpent might be worshipped ( so long as this religious respect ( without any act of Idolatry ) was giuen to it ) as be●ring the Image of Christ in the forme of a Serpent : then may the Image of Christ be esteemed venerable . Ad hereto , that if the day of the Pascha be called , Holy , e in regard of it signification : and because it was dedicated to diuine Worship : And if the vestements of the Priests in the old Law , for the same reason , be tearmed , Holy : f And if the sepulcre or graue of Christ , be named , Glorious : g Yf also it be sayd in Exodus : h The place , where t 〈…〉 ou standest is holy : and this sayd by reason of the presence of the Angell , being then there : And if in the New Testament the Scripture be called : i Sacrae litterae holy letters : & this only by reason , that the letters are signes of holy things , expressed by them : And finally if to the name of IESVS we be commanded to bow k ( the sound of the word being to the care , as the picture is to the eye ) then by the same reason , why may we not be●re to the Images of Christ and his Saincts a religious respect , in regard of the persons , of whom they are made ? Againe leauing diuine authorityes , and comming to force of reason . Yf a picture be capable of disgrace and iniurye , in regard of the person thearein represented ; then by the same reason a Picture may be capable of honour , respect , and reuerence . This inference is most demonstratiue . Now that a Picture is capable of disgrace or Contumely , is euident : For example , if a Subiect ( disloyalty affected to his Prince ) should deface , teare , or breake , or any otherwyse indecently handle his Princes picture , as by stabbing it with his knife , or the lyke : Or if some Athist ( denving all Scripture ) should betrample vnder his feete ( through scorne and malice ) the Bible it selfe ; Would not theese actions be seuerely chastized ? And might not the Pictures of the Prince , and the Bible , be said to haue suffered disgrace and indignity heareby , with reference to the wrong and indignitie committed against the Prince , and the sacred Scripture ? Then by the same reason , may the Pictures of Christ and his Saincts be affected with due religious respect aboue other things : in regard of Christ and his Saincts represented in them , of whom they are the Pictures . Only heere we are to remember ( as aboue is often intimated ) that the respect we giue to the picture of Christ , is not that supreme honour and veneration due to Christ : but only an inferiour religious respect , due to things , as they are directed to spirituall ends : and not otherwise . The verity of the former Point may be further confirmed , by our custome of standing barehead , and giuing reuerence to the Cloath of Estate , euen in the Kings absence . ●or as to it ( as representing our temporall Prince ) a ciuill honour may lawfully be giuen : so ( by the same ground ) a religious respect or honour may be ascrybed to the picture of Christ , who is our cheife King and Sauiour . That this our Catholicke doctrine is warranted by the practice and authority of the auncient Fathers , is most euident ; And therefore I refer the Reader hearein to the cleare testimonyes of l Austin , m Ambrose , n Chrysostome , o Basill , p Ierome , q Athanasius and others : whose whole sentences thereof were ouer longe to set downe . This point of the Fathers iudgment touching Images is so euident , that we find Learned Protestants to confesse no lesse of them : For thus w●yte the Centurists : Lactantius affirmeth many superstitious things , concerning Christs Image : r And Bede erred in worshipping of Images . And Osiander s confssseth , that Gregory by his Indulgenses , established pilgrimages to Images . t Bale thus playnly wryteth : Leo allowed the worshipping of Images . Finally M. u Symondus thus accordeth with Bale : Leo decreed , that reuerence should be giuen to Images . To all whose confessed testimonyes , we may adioyne the acknowledgments of Functius x and Cedrenus , y confessing ( as they prooue out of z Nicephorus ) that Xenayas Persa was the first in auntient tymes , that impugned the due worship of Images . That it is lawfull to haue Images in Churches , is taught ( as true and warrantable doctrine ) by diuers learned Protestants ; as by Cempnitius , a by Luther , b and Brentius , Iacobus c Andreas &c. But now I will conclude this discourse touching Images with a most authenticall and strange miracle , wrought by the Image of Christ , and recorded by d Eusebius , e Theophilact , and f Zozemene ; all auncient & graue Wryters ; whose authorityes herein if we reiect , we reiect by the same reason the proofe of all other things , recorded by auntient Historiographers . It was this . The woman , whom our Sauiour cured of the bloody flux , caused to be made a brazen Image of Christ ; at the foote whereof did spring a strange hearb ; the which hearbe , after it did ascend so high , as to touch the scirt of the Image , it had vertue to cure all diseases . Which vertue ( no doubt ) God would not haue imparted to the Hearbe , but only in manifestation , that due respect might lawfully be giuen to the Image of Christ . And thus far , touching the Catholicke doctrine of Images . Touching Prayer to Saincts . TOuchinge Prayer to Saincts . I will deliuer the Catholicke doctryne thereof in certaine Propositions ; which Propositions may searue as certaine graduall stips or degrees of this Controuersye . The first Proposition may be this . It is not lawfull to pray to Saincts , as authours or principall dispensours of diuine benefitts , to obtaine from them either grace or glorye , or the meanes of obtaining our Eternall felicitie ; much lesse , the Crawne of glory or heauen it selfe . Since in this sense to pray to them , were ( according to the iudgment of S. Austin a and all Catholicks ) to make Saincts , Gods. And therefore if at any time , the words directed to Saincts should sound otherwyse : as when we say : Our Lady healpe me &c. We are heare to insist in the sense , not in the naked words : That is , Our Lady healpe me by her intercession and prayers to her sonne ; and no otherwyse : Euen as we fynd , that S. Paule saith of hymselfe : b If I may saue some of them : meaning , of the Gentills . And againe the sayd Apostle saith of hymselfe : To c all Men I am become all things , that I might saue all : meaning , to saue all not as God : but only healping them and furthering their Saluation by his preaching to them , and by his prayers for them . Which words of the Apostle ( being truly vnderstoode ) may sear●e well to stop the Mouths of the Protestant Ministers , for their often mistaking and misinterpreting of the Catholicke Doctrine touching prayer to Saincts . The second Proposition . Saincts are not our immediate Mediatours , by way of intercession with God ; But whatsoeuer they demande or obtayne of God for vs , they demaund and obtayne it , through Christ and his Merits . And according hearto we find , that all the Prayers of the Church ( which are made to Saincts ) end with this clause : Per Christum Dominum nostrum : For we willingly acknowledge , d that no Man cōmeth to the Father , by the Sonne ; And that their is but one Mediatour of Redemption : though all the Saincts may be tearmed our Mediatours , by way of Intercession . The third Proposition . The Saincts , which reigue with Christ , do pray for vs , and this not only in generall , but in particular : That is , for particular Men , and for the particular Necessityes of the same Men. This is proued first , from those words in Ieremy : e If Moyses and Samuel shall stand before me , my Soule is not towards this People . From whence it is inferred , that Moyses and Samuel ( then being dead ) might and were accustomed to pray for the People of Israel . Secondly , the same is proued from the Example of Angells , who do pray for vs , and haue a care of vs in particular , as appeareth out of seuerall passages of f Scripture . But if the Angells do pray for vs , then much more Saincts ; seing so far forth , as appertayneth to this function , nothing is wanting to the Saincts in Heauen , which Angells haue : for they are endued with Intelligence or Vnderstanding , and with Will ; they are euer in the presence of God ; they loue vs vehemently ; and finally they g are equall euen with Angells : Besids , some priuiledges they haue in this point , which are wanting in Angells : to wit , that Saincts are more conioyned and vnited members of the body of the Church ; and that they haue tryed our dangers and Miseries , which Angells haue not . Thirdly , the former Proposition is proued from the many apparitions of Saincts , which haue euidently testified , that they do pray for vs euen in particular . Of diuers such particular Apparitions , See h Eusebius , i Austin , k Basill , l Gregory Nazianzene , m Gregory Nyslene , and n Theodoret ; all which testimonyes of so auncient and reuerend Fathers to reiect , touching matter of fact , by answearing , that all such relations are fabulous , is in effect ( and by necessarie inference ) to take away all authority of Ecclesiasticall and humane Historyes . The fourth and last Proposition . Saincts and Angells are religiously and profitably inuoked and prayed vnto , by liuing Men. This is proued . First , Wee reade , that Iacob blessing the sonns of Ioseph , thus saith : The o Angell , which hath deliured me from all Euill , blesse these Children ; wheare we see , that Iacob expressly inuoketh these Angell . Againe , we reade thus in Iob. Call , p if any will answeare thee , and turne to some of the Saincts : Wheare by the word : Saincts , he meaneth Angells , according to the exposition of Sainct Austin q Secondly , this last Proposition is proued from that , that in both the Testaments the Liuing were inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing ; as in the first Booke of the Kings , and in the last of Iob. In lyke sort in the Epistle to the Romans S. Pauli thus saith : s Brethren I beseach you , that you all healpe me in your prayers for me to God. Which Kynd of prayer the Apostle vseth in the Epistle to the t Ephesians ; in the first to the u Thessalonians , in the second x to the Thessalonians , in his epistle to the y Colossians , & to the z Hebrewes : So familiar and vsuall was this to S. Paull . Therefore from hence I conclude , that now it is lawfull to inuoke and pray to the said Men ; being now Saincts , and raigning with Christ . This Inference is most necessarye & demonstratiue . For if it be not now lawfull to pray to them , It is either because the Saincts now in Heauen will not healpe vs with their intercession to God ; But this is not so , seing the Saincts in Heauen enioye greater Charity , then they had heare vpon earth : Or els in that the Saincts cannot healpe vs with their prayers : And this lesse true : for if they could afore healpe vs with their prayers , they being then but Pilgrims ; much more now , they being arryued into their Country . Or els because they do not know , what we pray or demaund of them : But this is false : for looke from whence the Angells do know the Conuersion of sinners , for which they so much reioyce in Heauen , ( as we reade in S. a Luke ) from the same source or wellspring of knowledge the Saincts do know our prayers ; Or lastly , because we offer iniury to God and Christ , if we pray to any other , then to him alone ; But this is the least of all true , seing by the same reason , it should not be lawfull for vs to pray to the liuing , that they would pray for vs ; And then consequently Saint Paul should haue beene most iniurious to God and Christ , in praying to the Romans , the Ephesians , the Thessalonians , the Colossians and the Hebrews , to pray for him to God. Therefore , as it is no iniury , but an honour to Kings , when their friends are honored , and Embassadours are sent to them ; Euen so heere there is no iniury done to God , but honour , when the Saincts of God are honored by praying vnto them ; not as to Gods , but as to the friends of God : since otherwise it would follow , that he should commit an iniury to God ( as is aboue sayd ) who should desire & entreate the prayers of the liuing . This argument is vnanswerable , and the rather : since the Saincts in Heauen are members of the same Church , of which the liuing are : they also wholy relye vpon the same intercession of Christ with the liuing : for what they desire for vs , that they desyre of God , through the merits of our Sauiour Christ . This doctrine of Inuocation of Saincts is further prooued from seuerall auncient Councells : whose places for greater breuity I referre the Reader to ▪ As to the Epistle of the Bishops of Europe , written to Leo the Emperour , which epistle is adioyned to the Councell of Calcedon , the Councell of Chalcedon b it selfe , the sixt c generall councell , the seauenth d generall coūcell , besides diuers others . That the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church beleiued & practized this doctrine of praying to Saincts , is euident from the references herein the margent . See then hereof Dionisius e Areopagita , Ireneus , f Eusebius , g Athanasius , ( h ) Basill , i Chrysostome , k Gregory l Nyssene , Hilary , m Ambrose , n Ierome , o Austin , p and others . This point of the Fathers iudgment and practize herein is so manifest , as that we fynd it to be thus confessed of them , by the learned Protestants . M. Fulke thus sayth : r I confesse , that Ambrose , Austin , and Ierome did hould Inuocation of Saincts to be lawfull . The sayd D. Fulke doth further thus write : In s Nazianzen , Basill , and Chrysostome is mention of Inuocation of Saincts . And yet more fully the same D. thus confesseth : Many t of the auncient Fathers did hould , that the Saincts departed do pray for vs. In which generall condemnation of the Fathers herein D. Whitguift ( the Archbishop of Canterbury ) thus cōspireth with the foresayd D. Fulke : u Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the Greeke Church and Latin also , for the most part , were spotted with the doctrine of Inuocation of Saincts , and such like points . To conclude D. Couell thus 〈…〉 peth with the former Protestants , saying : x Diuers both of the Greeke and Latin Church , were spotted with the errour , about the Inuocation of Saincts . Now that the Protestants do not only confesse the auncient Fathers iudgment hearein ; but that also diuers of them do beleiue the doctrine 〈◊〉 selfe to be true , is no lesse cleare : For we find Luther hymselfe thus to wryte : De y intercessione diuorum , cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio , Sanctos a nobis hon●randos esse & inuocando● . With whom agree z O●colampadius , a Latimer , and diuers b Protestants in Polonia . Now I will end this poynt , in setting the iudgment of learned c Fathers and Catholicks , touching the manner how Saincts do heare out prayers . Which is , that Saincts as being in Heauen , euen from their first beginning of their beatitude and happines , do see all things in God ( as in a cleare glasse ) which belong vnto them any way , according to that : Quid * est , quod ibi n●sciunt , qui scie tem om●●a sciunt ? And therefore they see and heare our prayers , directed vnto them . And hence it is , that the holy Soules before our Sauiours Incarnation and Ascention , being in Ly●bus Patrum , were not prayed vnto ; because they then not being in Heauen , could not heare the prayer of the liuing made to them ; And therefore no maruayle , if neither in the old Testament nor in the new , we find no expresse examples of prayer made to Saincts . To the former maner , how saincts do see the actions of the liuing , and do heare their prayers , I may adioyne an other manner of hearing thē allowed & taught by S. d Austin & other e Fathers . Which is , that God out of his speciall fauour and loue to his Saincts , doth open and reueale to them , the particular states and prayer of their friends , yet liuing in the World. Now how agreable it is to all force of Reason , that Saincts in Heauen should know the affayres of their liuing friends , is seuerall wayes proued . First , because the f Angells in Heauen reioyce at the conuertion of a sinne● : Therefore the Angells know the particular states of liuing Men. But if the Angells do , then by the same Reason the Saincts doe : seeing so far as concerne this poynt , theare is no difference betweene the Angells and the Saincts . Secondly , the Nature of their beatitude requireth such knowledge of the affayres of their liuing friends . For seeing their Happynes is a mayne Ocean of all ioyes ( no kind of happines being to them wanting , which is requisite for them to haue ) therefore it followeth , that for their greature measure of their felicity , they are to haue notice of the miseryes , wants , & prayers of their liuing friends . And this the rather , seing Nature is not abolished , but betered and perfected by grace ; from whence we may gather , that the Saincts in heauen do not abandon & reiect the cares & states of their liuing friends ; but do still retayne ( though with greater perfection ) their former naturall desire , to know & releiue the state of their said friends . Thirdly , This priuiledge of Saincts , knowing the state , and hearning the prayers of the liuing , best sorteth to the nobility and worth of their beatificall and happy Vision of God. For if God hath honored diuers of his friends ( whyles they liued in this world ) with the guyft of Prophecy ; as he did Daniell , Ezechiel , Esay , Dauid , and many others , wheareby diuers of them reuealed many things to come , meerely depending of Mans freewill ( and therefore not forseene , in their causes ) as also did tell ( at the very tyme they were donne ) things donne in places far distant and remote from them . How can it then otherwyse be , but that his diuine Maiesty is most willing to communicate vnto his Saincts the state and prayers of the liuing ? To the force of which Reason S. Austin subscribeth in theese words : Yf the Prophet Elizaeus ( absent in body ) did see the brybe his seruant Geizi did take of N●man syrus &c. How much more in that spirituall bodye , shall Saincts see all things &c. When God shal be All in all , vnto vs ? Lastly , the damned spirits and deuills , ( being far absent from their Witches , southsayers , and coniurers ) do neuerthelesse heare their inuocations and coniurations : As is warranted by all Experience . Shall any Man then thinke , that the blessed Saincts of Heauen , are depryued of hearing the prayers and intercessions , which the faythfull heare vpon Earth , do make vnto them ? since otherwyse it would follow , that spirituall substances by their losing of Heauen ( I meane , the deuills by their fall ) did obtayne greater prerogatiues and excellencye , then the soules of the Saincts do by gayning and ascending vp to Heauen : an absurdity incompatible with the goodnes , wisdome , and Charity of God. And thus much , touching the doctryne of Prayer to Saincts . The Catholicke doctrine touching Iustification by works , Merit of works , and Works of Supererogation . TOuching Iustification by Works , the Catholicks teach , as followeth . Iustification , a wheareby a Man being afore wicked , and the Sonne of Wrath , is become the Sonne of God , is wrought by the healpe of Gods grace ( without any meritte of works on our syde ) and by the spirit of fayth and Charity , infused by God in vs , in the very Act of our Iustification . Thus our Aduersaries may see , that we do not ascribe our first Iustification to any of our works at all ; though they most wrongfully traduce vs to the contrary ; For we willingly acknowledge those words of the Apostle : It b is not of the willer , or of the runner ; but of God , who sheweth Mercy . Secondly , the Catholicks teach , that after a Man iustifyed ( being of wicked become good ) he may encrease his first iustification by works : That is , he being already made iust , by Gods grace and mercy , may by his works become more Iust : Which works are not those , which are performed by the force of Nature ( as the Pelagians did teach , and the Protestants do falsly charge the Catholicks ) but as they are performed by the spirit and grace of God ; and as they receaue their force & vertue from our Sauiours Passion . Concerning the merit of Works more particularly , the Catholicks teach , as followeth ; whose doctrine herein ( for greater perspicuity ) I will set downe in certaine propositions ; Which propositions do contayne certaine condicions , necessarily requyred , that Works may merit . The first proposition is this . That works may merit , it is requyred , that the partye ( who worketh ) be in state of grace , and an adopted Child of God. Thus we exclude all works from meriting , which are performed by one , who is not in state of grace ; that is , who wanteth true fayth , true hope , true charity : for such Works are performed by force of Nature only , & not by force of Gods grace . The second proposition : That works do merit , a free & liber all promise or Couenant of God is necessary ; by which his promise of reward made vnto good Works , God in a manner obligeth himselfe , to reward good works , according to his promises . Heere our Aduersary may see , that we willingly confesse , that no works of ours ( of themselues ) can merit , as we abstract from them the promisse of God : for without this promisse and Couenant of God , made out o● his most mercifull bounty to remunerate good works , we do willingly say with the Apostle : The c passions of this life are not condigne , to the glory to come , that shal be reuealed vnto vs. The third proposition . That Works do merit , it is ( according to the most probable opinion ) necessarily requyred , that they cheifly preceede from actually or virtually Charity , & loue towards God : That is , that they be vndertaken cheifly and primatiuely for the honour and loue we beare to God. From whence it followeth , that no works , which are not seasoned with this condic●on of Charity in God , but haue to themselues only peculiar and lesse principall ends , c 〈…〉 merit . The fourth and last proposition , which is implicitly included in the former Propositions . That Works do merit , they must take their worth and dignity from the 〈…〉 ritis of our Sauiours Passion ; and from thence receaue ( as it were ) a new tincture and dye . Thus we see , that originally and principally it is Christs meri●ts , which do merit for vs ; and that our works are but once of the meanes , whereby we apply Christs merit●s vnto vs. That the doctrine here set downe touching merit of works is sutable to the doctrine of the Catholicke Roman Church , is euident euen from the authority of the Councell d of Trent , where we thus reade : To them , who worke well to the end of their life , and do hope in God , eternall life is giuen , both as a grace , and fauour mercifully promised to the Sonns of God , through the meritts of Christ Iesus ; as also as a reward , proceeding from the promisse of the same God , faythfully to be giuen to their good Works and Meritts &c. Thus the Councell . The certainty of this doctrine of merit of works receaueth it cheife proofe from the holy Scripture ; and this from the testimonyes of Scripture of seuerall kinds . First , then from those places , where eternall life is called Merces , a wage or reward . As Mathew * Reioyce , for your reward is great in Heauen . Againe , e Call the workemen , and pay them their hyre , besides diuers others of like nature . Secondly , from those places , wherein a heauenly reward is promised to men , according to the measure & proportion of their Works ; as where it is said : The f Sonne of Man shall come in the glory of his Father , and shall render to eueryone , secundum opera sua , according to his works . In like sort it is said : g God will render to euery one according to his works : besides many other like places , h here omitted . Thirdly , from those testimonyes of Scripture , which expresse the reason , that works are the cause , why eternall life is giuen ; thus we read : i Come you blessed of my Father , possesse the Kingdome prepared for you ; es 〈…〉 iui enim , & dedisti mihi manducare , for I was hungry , and you gaue me to eate . Againe in the same place : Quia in pauca fuisti &c. Because thou hast been faithfull ouer few things , I will place thee ouer many things ; enter into , the ioy of thy ●ord . And in the Apocalyps : k These are they , which are come out of great tribulation &c. ideo sunt ante thro●um Dei , therefore they are before the throne of God. In all which places the particles : Enim , Qui● , Ideo , are causases ; that is implying our shewing the reason and cause of a thing . Fourthly , from those texts , in which a reward is promised to good Works euen by force of Iustice ; According hereto we reade : l God is not vniust , that he should forget your worke . As also that : m be thou faythfull euen vnto death , and I will giue thee the Crowne of life . See of this nature other texts n quoted in the margent . Fiftly , and lastly , from those passages , wherein there is mention made of dignity or worth ; As where we reade : The x workeman is worthy his wage . Agayne : vt y digni habeamini regno Dei &c. That you may be had worthy the Kingdome of God , for which you suffer . See the like texts z noted in the margent . That the auncient Fathers mantayned the doctrine of merit of works : see for greater breuity a Ignatius , b Ireneus , c Basill , d Chrysostome , e Nazianz , f Nyssene , g Cyprian , h Ambrose , i Austin , k Ierome . The iudgment of the auncient Fathers touching merit of works is discouered ( besides by their owne testimonyes ) euen from the acknowledgment of the Protestants . For first we find D Humfrey to confesse in this s 〈…〉 rt : l Ireneus , Clemens , and others ( called Apostolicall ) haue in their wrytings merit of Works . In like sort the Centurists thus charge Chrysostome : m Chrysostome handleth impurely the doctrine of iustification , and attributeth merit to works . They also t 〈…〉 censure Origen n Origen made works the cause of our iustification . o Brentius in like sort saith , that Austin taught assiance in mans merits , towards remission of Sinns . Luther styleth Ierome , Ambrose , Austin , and others Iustice p Workers of the old Papacy . D. Whitakers thus wryteth of the age of Cyprian : q Not only Cyprian , but almost all the most holy Fathers of that tyme were in that errour , as thinking so to ●ay the payne due to sinne , and to satisfy Gods iustice . D. Whitguift ( as afore of praying to Saincts , so ) of merit of works thus confesseth : r Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the greeke Church and Latin also , were spotted with doctrine of merit . s Bullenger confesseth the great antiquity of the doctrine of merit in these words : The doctrine of Merit , satisfaction , and iustification of works , did incontinently after the Apostles tyme lay their first foundation . To conclude this point M. Wotton ( no obscure Protestant ) reiecteth the authority of Ignetius ( the Apostles scholar ) touching merit of works in this sort : t I say plainly , this Mans testimony is nothing worth ; because he was of little iudgment in Diuinity . Thus farre , touching our Aduersary acknowledgments of the Fathers iudgment herein . Now that some learned Protestants do teach and beleiue the doctrine of Merit of Works , to be true and Orthodoxall doctrine , is no lesse euident , then the former point . For it is taught , as true doctrine by the Publike u Confessions in their Harmony : by M. x Hooker , by y Melanct●on , and by Spandeburge z the Protestant . To the former doctrine of merit of Works , I will adioyne the doctryne touching works of Supererogation ; Which doctrine is greatly exagirated and depraued by many Protestants ; who are not ashamed to traduce the Catholicks , and to diuulge both by penne and in Pulpit , that the Catholicks do hould , that their works can do more , then merit Heauen . But this is the Protestant● 〈…〉 lumny ; since the Catholicks do not hould or beleiue any such thing . Therefore I will sette downe the true definition of an Euangelical Counsell distinguished from a Precept ; seing vpon Euangelicall Counsells works of Supererogation are grounded . An Euangelicall Counsell of Perfection , is called any good Worke , Which is not commanded by Christ ▪ but only commended by him , and poynted on to vs by hym ; As the Vowe of Chastity of Pouerty , of Obedience ; and diuers other good Works , not commanded by God. It differeth from a Precept . First , because the subiect of a Precept is more facill and easy , then that of a Councell ; Secondly in that a Counsel doth include in it the Performance of a Precept , and something more then a Precept ; Thirdly , in that Precepts are common to all Men to performe , Counsells are not so ; Fourthly , Precepts of their owne nature do oblige Men to their performance ; Counsells are in the choyce of one , to performe or not performe ; Lastly Precepts , being obserued are rewarded ; being not obserued , the transgression is punished : Whereas Counsells , being obserued and kept haue a greater reward ; being not kept , no punishment followeth . Thus far touching the definition of an Euangelicall Counsell : Which in other words may be also thus defined : An Euangelical Counsell is any such good Worke of high Perfection , to the performance whereof we are not bownd , as that we sinne in not doing of it . Now whereas it is commonly obiected against the doctrine of Euangelicall Councells , That we are so obbliged to God , as that we cannot euer do more , then we ought to do : It is therefore heare to be conceaued , that if we consider Gods benefitts bestowed vpon vs , we willingly acknowledge , that Man can not do more good , then he ought : no not the thousand part of that , he ought to do , in that Man cannot render or retaliate any thing of equall valew and worth to Gods benefitts . Neuerthelesse Yf we consider the Law and Commande imposed by God vpon vs ; then man may be sayd to do more , then indeede he is obliged by Gods Law to do . For although Man cannot exceede or equall Gods benefits with his owne works : yet he is not become guilty hearby : seing Men is not obliged to performe more , then that only , which God commaundeth . Euangelicall Councells take the cheife and first proufe from sacred Scripture : As wheare it is said : a There are certaine Eunuchs who haue gelded themselfs for the Kyngdome of Heauen : Which place is expounded of the Euangelicall Counsell of Chastity , by b Cyprian , c Chrysostome , d Austin , and others . A second text ( to omit diuers others for breuity ) is that where our Sauiour sayth to the yong Man : e Yf thou wilt be perfect , go , and sell all that thou hast , and giue it to the poore , and thou shalt haue treasure in heauen : Which text is interpreted of the Euangelicall Counsell of pouerty , by S. f Ambrose , S. g Ierome , and S h Austin . The foresayd doctrine is further confirmed by the authority of the auncient Fathers : For b 〈…〉 es their expositions of the foresaid places of Scripture , this doctrine is further taught by i Origen , k Athanasius , l Basil , m Chrysostome , n Nazianzene , o Cyprian , p Ambrose , q Ierome , and finally by r Austin , who speaking of Precepts and Counsells , vseth the very Word : Supererogation , thus saying of precepts and Counsells : Dominus debitum imperat nobis : in his autem si quid amplius supererogaueritis , in reddendo reddet nobis . The doctrine of Euangelicall Councells is warranted and taught ( besydes by the former auncient fathers of the Primatiue Church euen by diuers learned Protestants . According hearto we find it is mantayned for true doctryne , by s M. Hooker , by D. t Co●ell , and by u Bucer , And thus f●r breifly of Iustification by Works , of merit of Works , and of works of Supererogation . The Catholicke Doctrine , touching Indulgences . THe Vi●ulency of Protestants against the doctrine of Indulgences is most remarkable . Wherefore for their better conceauing of the state of this Question or Indulgences , this following in the Catholicke Doctrine . First , that Mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession ; so far forth only , as concerneth the guilt or offence of God and the punishment of eternall damnation ; yet so , that this eternall punishment by Gods Mercy is turned into temporall punishment ; as appeareth by the example of Dauid : Who ( though the eternall punishment due to the guilt of his sinns was for giuen ) yet was punished temporally by the death of his Sonne : For these are the words in Scripture after his sinne was forgiuen : a Because thou hast caused the name of God to be blasphemed , the Child , that is borne to th●e , shall dye . In lyke sort , Dauids sinne in numberring his People , being remitted him ; yet was he put to chuse b for his temporall punishmēt and satisfaction , either Warre , Famine , or Pestilence . Now the guilt of eternall damnation for sinne being remitted , there remaineth a temporall punishment . And this tēporall punishment ( thus reserued ) is the sole subiect of Indulgences . Therefore an Indulgence ( as heare the word is taken ) is a mercifull relaxation or remission of temporall punishment , due for sinne , by applying the super abundant satisfaction of Christ , after the sinne it selfe and guilt of eternall damnation due to mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession ; or for want thereof by perfect Contrition . The ground and foundation of Indulgencs is cheifly the treasury and satisfaction of Christs death , which is of that infinity greate valew an pryce ( seeing euery drop of his bloud was able to redeeme a thousands Worlds , in regard of his Diuinity being vnited to his Humanity ) as that it can ueuer be exhausted . For we reade : that c Christ dyed for all ; Also that d Christ is apropitiation for our sinns ; and not for our sinns only , but for the Sinns of the whole World. But it is certaine , that the pryce of Christs death was not actually applyed to all Men hitherto liuing ; since then it would follow , that all Men ( which hitherto haue liued ) should haue bene saued . Therefore it followeth , that theare yet remayneth a greate abundance of the pryce of Christ passion ( if it were not in finite , as indeede it is ) to be applyed and still will remaine . The dispenser of this treasury of the Church is the Heade of Christs Church , who hath power to apply this treasury for the absoluing of Men from their temporall punishment , due to their Sinns , allready remitted by Sacramentall Confession , according to the authority geuen him in those words : Whatsoeuer thou losest vpon earth , shal be losed in Heauen ; with which place accord other places f of the Euangelists . Now these words being generall , they do extend as well to the punishment due for sinne , as to the sinne itselfe ; seing the punishment is as remissible , as the Sinne ; And as to the one are applyed Christs Meritts , so to the other Christs ●atisfactions . The Cause , why any Indulgence is granted to any Man , ought to be iust and reasonable ( or otherwyse the Indulgence granted is of no valew ) for seing the Pope is not Lord of this spirituall treasure of the Church , but only the distributer thereof therefore this distribution he cannot make without a iust , reasonable , and lawfull Cause . The Partie receauing the benefit of an Indulgence ought ( at the tyme of receauing it ) to be in state of grace ( since otherwise he can reape no benefit by any Indulgence ) to which state he is brought by true Contrition of his former Sinns , although not perhaps forgeuen ( in respect of eternall damnation ) in the Sacrament of Confession : And heare is discouered the trissling vanity & falshood of our Aduersaries : in affirming , that the Catholicks teach , that the Pope can giue ( a fore hand ) an Indulgence to any Man for any sinne , which hereafter is to be committed . Since wee see , that the obiect of an Indulgence is the temporall punishment only ( and not the punishment of damnation ) and this for a sinne allready committed ( and not hereafter to be committed ) of which a Man being in state of grace ( and consequently not one , who beareth a present resolution to commit any sinne hereafter ) is remitted by his Indulgence ; applyed to hym , vpon iust and reasonable Causes . We are further heare to admonish , that the Partie receauing an Indulgence , ought to performe entyrely and precisly all things enioyned hym by his Indulgence ; Whether it be prayer , Alms , fasting &c. According to that vsuall saying : Indulgentia tantum valent , quantum sonant . Wheare it is taught , that the Merits and suffrings of some greate Saincts as of our Blessed Lady , S , Iohn Baptiste , and some others , do concurre to the encrease of this spirituall Treasure of the Church ( which is the foundation of Indulgences ) this is to be vnderstood in this sense ; to wit , that because their Meritts , works , and sufferings haue their vertue and valew only from the Meritts of our Sauiours Passion : And that they onely concurre to the increase of the treasure as they depend vpon the meritts of Christ therefore it may be truly said , that primatiuely and Originally only the Meritts and Passion of Christ , do make this spirituall treasure , from whence Indulgences do flowe . Ad hearto , that if S. Paule might truly say in a researued sense : Ad imple ea , quae desunt passionum Christi , in earne mea , pro corpor●●ius , quod est Ecclesia I do fullfill those things , that do want of the passion of Christ , in my flesh , for his body , which is the Church ( words , which if any Catholicke should haue auerred of any one Sainct , without the warrant of the Apostle , he should haue bene mighrely calumn●ated and wronged by the Protestants ) then followeth it , that the afflictions and sufferings of S. Paule ( as receauing their force from Christs Passiō ) may be said without any indignitie to Christ , to encreasse this spirituall treasure of the Church . For these former words do not import , that there was any defect in the Passion of Christ ; but that the sufferings of S. Paule , did fulfill the plenitude of Christ his Passion , and his members for the benefit of those , to whom they are to be communicated For as Christ , being the inuisible and supreme heade of his Church , doth with his Church , make but one mysticall body ; so his sufferings with the sufferings of his members ( receauing all their force and efficacy from the Passion of Christ ) do make ( as S. h Austin affirmeth ) one common and publ●ke We●le , or one publike treasure . And according hereto it is , that we fynd , offered S. Paules afflictions sometymes for the i Colossians at other times for the Corinthians k : he desiring at one tyme to dye for the Romans l ; at an other tyme , to become an A●athem● for them . To proceede further . The Old Testament it selfe warranteth this mutuall communication of one suffering for an other ; And in this sense it is said of Gods Church ( there entituled Ierusalem , that it is , m as a Citty , whose participationes in it selfe . That is : As in a publicke Citty there is a generall trafficke , for the publicke benefit of euery particular Citizen ; So in the Citty of God ( which is his Church ) there is a communion or participation of all the spirituall works thereof , to the generall benefit and behoo●e of eich particular Man. And vpon this ground it is , that Dauid said ( in respect of the communication of one Mans sufferings for an other ) n I am made partaker of all , that feare the Lord. Now this former doctrine , touching the sufferings of one to be applyed to an other , being the vndoubted , true , and auncient doctrine of Christ Church ( vpon which ground Indulgances are builded ) it from hence appeareth , how idly and impertin●ntly our aduersaryes do vrge some texts of Scripture to the contrary ; As where it is sayd : The o soule , which sinneth , ●●en that shall dye . And againe : p Euery one shall be are his owne burden . And more : No q Man c●● redeeme his brother , or giue a price to God for him . All which texts are spoken of the state of eternall damnation , ( and therefore impertinently alledged ) in which state a Man depar●eth out of this World ; but they are not spoken of temporall punishment only , which is reserued , after the guilt of eternall damnation is remitted ; which is the point here controuerted . If it be vrged against this doctrine , that the actions of the Saincts , deceased , were meritts to themselues ; and therefore cannot be applyed , as satisfactions for others . ●o this I answere , that one and the same action may be ( in a different respect ) both meritorious , and satisfactory ; Meritorious , as it proceedeth from supernaturall grace ; satisfactory , as it is performed with payne , labour and difficulty ; According hereto we reade in Scripture , that alme●deeds do both merit , and satisfy for sinne : For thus we reade : r Whosoeuer shall giue in my name a cup of cold water , &c. he shall not loose his reward . Here is merit . We also reade of Alme●deeds s in this sort : Almesdeeds deliuer vs from sinne and death ; and againe : As t water quencheth the fire , so Almesdeeds extinguish sinne . Here is satisfaction . Here also we are to concea●e , that though the same action may be meritorious and satisfactory ; yet a man meriteth only for himselfe , & not for others : but satisfy he may both for himselfe , and for others : only Christ ( our Sauiour ) hath merited both grace and glory for vs all , and also hath satisfyed for the sinnes of all Men , Yet the worth and price of his merites we can apply only to ourselues , ( by our meritorious actions ) and not deriue it to any other ; but the benefit of his satisfaction we may deriue ( by our owne satisfactory works ) not only to our selues , but also to others . Where it is vulgarly objected , that Iuduigences are oftentymes granted for more thousands of years , then the World or Purgatory are like to endure and continue ; And that therefore they are ridiculously and foolishly granted . I answere , this argument proceedeth from meere Ignorance . For heere the yeres are not to be vnderstood of the yeres or dayes of penall satisfaction , which are to be imposed in Purgatory ; but of the number of yeres , which were more or lesse in number proportioned ( according to the diuersity of the crime ) by the Canonicall Decrees of the Church . And here we are further to know , that God in the space and compasse of an houre or some such short time , may by the bitter paynes of Purgatory expiate that , which ( in this life ) a remisse and slow penance or satisfaction would scarce redeeme in the compasse of many yeres . Now touching the antiquity of Indulgences ; we fynd them practized by S. Paul , who thus sayth of the incestuous person : Whom u you haue pardoned , I also pardon : for that which I haue pardoned , in the Person of Christ , for you I haue done it , that we be not circumuented of Satan . Here now we are to remember , that the incestuous person ( to whom the Indulgence was heere giuen ) being in great contrition and sorrow for his sinne , was excommunicated by S. Paul , who at the request of the Corinthians did release him of his excommunication , for feare he might faule into dispayre . Now in this example , we find all things necessary to an Indulgence or Pardon . As first , the authority of the granter of the pardon ; to wit , S. Paul , who affirmes to do it , in the person of Christ . Secondly , state of grace in the Receauer of the Indulgence ; as appeareth by his Contrition and sorrow for his sinne committed . Thirdly , the temporall punishment remitted ; to wit , his Excommunication . Lastly , a iust & sufficient cause for giuing this Indulgence or Pardon : Which was , lest the offendour should faule into dispayre , or be ouerplunged in sorrow . After the Apostles tymes , we fynd that the Bishops of the Primatiue Church gaue pardons and Indulgences to many : and this was done by the mediation of Confessours or designed Martyrs , as is witnessed by x Tertullian & y Cyprian . We also find , that Pardons and Indulgences were giuen by sundry ●●opes in other ages : as by z Leo the third , by a Gregory the Great , by b Vrban the second , by c Innocentius the third , by Paschalis the first , and by others . All which dispensed and distributed out of the common treasure of the Church . Besides the former authorityes , the doctrine and vse of Indulgencs is warranted by Councells , both Generall and Prouinciall . To wit , the first Councel of d Nice , the Councell of e Ancyran , the Councell of Leodice , f the Councell of Claramontane , the Councell of Lateran , of Vienna , of Constance and of Trente : as appeareth in the Councells themselfs . Now if the former auncient Popes and Fathers , as also these alledged Councells should erre in the doctrine of Indulgences , then two mayne absurdityes should follow ; first , that the Primatiue Church should most fouly erre in a dogmaticall poynt of fayth ; contrary to the iudgment of the more sober & Leared Protestants , among whom I will ( for breuity ) heare set downe the iudgment only of Kempnitius , touch●ng the Primatiue Church , who thus saith : g I dowbt not , but the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles and Apostolicall Men : not only the text of Scripture , but also the natiue sense thereof . But this the Primatiue Church could not receaue , if it wholy erred in so mayne a matter of Christian doctrine , as the doctryne of Indulgences is . The second Absurdity , is that in regard of the said Fathers and Generall Councells , defending the doctrine of Indulgences , the whole Church of Christ ( supposing the doctrine to be fa●se ) should erre in matter of fayth ; contrary to the Promise of Christ , who hath promised euer to be with his Church till the end of the World ; which said Church of his is styled by the Apostle ( for it greater certainty of fayth h columna & firmamentum veritatis ; and therefore incompatible with errour . And thus much concerning the doctrine of Indulgences ; ending this discours with the Confession of Kempnitius , ( touching the antiquity thereof ) who plainly acknowledgeth , and saith i that the beginning of Indulgences is not clearely enough set downe in histories . The Catholicke doctrine touching Communion vnder one Kynd , defended . THe true state of this question is not , whether Christ did institute the Eucharist vnder both kynds ; Or whether hymselfe and the Apostles did at the first institution , receaue it vnder both kynds : Or whether the Apostles and the Fathers afterwards at sundry tymes did minister it to the Laity , vnder both kynds ( for all this is confessed for true ) But only the Question heare is , whether Christ our Sauiour did geue an absolute Command , vnto his Apostles and their Successours of administrating the said Sacrament vnder both kynds , ( to wit of breade and Wyne ) so as the deliuering of it to the Laity vnder one kynd only , should be a breach of our Lords precept therein . The Protestants affirme it to be an absolute transgression of onr Sauiours precept ; The Catholicks denye it ; mantayning , that our Sauiour in the first institution of the Sacrament , did leaue no precept , touching the maner , how it is to be administrated to the Laity . The Catholicks do further iustify , that the Protestants in this place do ignorantly confound a Precept with an Institution betwene which two , theare is great differēce . For example , God did first Institute and ordayne Mariadge ; yet he gaue no precept or command thereof : For if he had , then all Men should haue bene bownd to marye . The Catholicks prooue this their doctryne ; first from our Lord and Sauiours owne words ; Who , as he some tymes maketh mention of both kynds : so often doth be mention but ore Kynd only , as wheare he sayth : He , a that eateth this bread , shall liue for euer . Againe : This b is the bread , that commeth downe from Heauen : in both which places ( besides diuers others ) be maketh no mention of the Cup. Secondly , the s●me doctrine is proued from the practise of our Sauiour hymselfe ; c who being at Emaus with his two Disciples at supper , did take breade , and ( as S. Luke relateth ) and blesse and breake it , and did reach it to them . Wheare S. Luke mentioneth not the Cup. That by this breade is vndersto●de the ●ucharist , is taught by S. d Austin , and euen by some Protestant e Wryters . Thirdly , from the Apostles practize , after Christs tyme. For werea●● , that S. Luke f ●eaking of the beleiuers and the faythfull ) thus sayth : They ( f ) were perseuering in the doctrine of the Apostles , and in communication of breaking of bread , and in prayers . Heare is no mention of the Cup to the Laity ; And yet ●eare , by breaking of breade is vnderstoode the Eucharist ; both because it is ioyned with doctrine and prayers , as also by the testimonies of the auncien● g Fathers , & the Protestants . h Concerning which place of S. Luke , wee are to conceaue , that S. Luke related not what the Apostles did ( who , no dowbt , did consecrate in both hynds ) but only , what the Laity did , and vnder what kynd they did receaue . Fourthly , the foresaid doctryne of the Laity communicating vnder one kynd or both , is confessed by diuers learned Protestants , as a matter of Indifferency only , and not of Necessity : For Luther thus writeth heareof : i They sinne not against Christ , who vse one kind ; seing Christ hath not commanded to vse both but hath le●f●●t to the will of euery one . In lyke sort Hospinian k ( the Protestant ) relateth , that certaine Protestants ( as houlding it a matter of indifferency ) did actually communicate vnder one kynd . To be short , Melancton thus writeth heareof : l Concerning both the kinds of the Lords supper &c. The Pope with out any hurt , might easely healpe these inconueniences ; Yf taking away the prohibition , he would leaue the vse free . And this liberty would noting hurt vs : Of such indifferency ( we see ) Melancton maketh this poynt to be In the next place , we will examine our Aduersaries , cheifest arguments produced out of the Scripture to the contrarie . And first , they obiect the words of our Sauiour : m Vnlesse you eate the flesh of the Sonne of Man , and drinke his bloud , you shall not haue lyfe in you . To this I answeare ; first , that according to diuers learned n Protestants , these words do not concerne the Sacrament of the Eucharist ▪ But that by eating and drinking in this place , is vnderstood beleiuing in Christ . Secondly , admitting the same words to concerne the B. Eucharist ; and withall supposing them to include a precept ( as indeed they include no precept ) yet this precept resteth not in the Maner of receauing , but in the thing receaued ; to wit , the body and bloud of Christ . But the body and bloud of Christ are as fully receaued vnder one kynd , as vnder both ; as hereafter shal be showed . Our Aduersaryes further obiect those other words of our Sauiour : o drinke you all of this . Which words they will needs extend , as spoken to all the La●ty . To this I first answeare , that the word : All , is not euer taken in the Scripture Vniuersally , for all Men , or all things ; but often for all only of some certayne kynd ; And according hearto we thus reade : p All Men sinned ; and yet from hence Christ is excepted . Againe , we also reade : q 〈◊〉 cryed , Crucifye hym : And yet the Apostles were exempt out of this : All. And so heare in the former words : Drinke you all of this ; The word : All , is to be restrayned only to all the Apostles , who then were with Christ : For if it were to be extended to all Men vniuersally , and without restraint ; then should the Sacrament of the Cup be giuen to Iewes , Turks , Infidels , and Children ; all which not withstanding are exempted from thence , by the confession of the Protestants . Moreouer Drinke yee all of this was spoken onely to those to whom was said do yee this in remembrance of me . But this was spoken onely to the Apostles and in them to Preists their successours . Now seeing ( as aboue it is proued ) Communion ( vnder one , or both kynds ) is a thing of Indifferencie ; The Church of God out of her authoritie , hath debarred the Laity from the Cup ; moued thearto ( besides some other reasons ) out of a due reuerrence to this highe and venerable Sacrament . For if the Laity should drinke of the Cup , it would not ( morally speaking ) be otherwyse , but that through the negligence of diuers of the Laity , theare would be frequent spilling of the Cup vpon the ground ; a thing most indecent and irreuerent ; and which the auncient r Fathers had a speciall care to preuent . Neither can it be heare replyed , that to the Laity ( as being retayned from the Cup ) but a halfe and imperfect Sacra ment is geuen ; and that thereupon the Laity is depryued of much grace and fruyte , imparted by receauing it vnder both kinds : To this I answere . First , the Protestants haue small reason to vrge the want of Grace or fruit , by giuing it vnder one kind ; seing by their doctrine , this Sacrament actually giueth no grace or fruit at all , but only by representation or signification ; But this representation of our Sauiours death is perfectly accomplished vnder one kind only ; As we see , it was fully figured in the old Law , in the Manna alone , and in the Paschall Lambe alone . Secondly and more particularly , I say , that neither is this Sacrament giuen by halfs only ( as our Aduersaries suggest ) neither is lesse fruit imparted by one kind , then by both ; the reason hereof is , because the Catholicks do ioyntly teach , that vnder eyther kind , is truly contayned whole Christ ; to wit , his Body , Bloud , Soule , and Diuinity . That this doctrine is true ( euer presupposing the Reall Presence of Christ in the Sacrament , which all Catholicks doe ) is prooued from two other Principles of faith . The first is , that Christ after his Resurrection , shall neuer dye agayne , according to that of S. Paul : s Christ rysing from the dead , now dyeth no more . From whence it immediately followeth , that vnder the forme of Bread , the Body of Christ is not without bloud and Soule ; seing otherwise , it would be without life , and consequently dead . The second Article is , That Christ is one Diuine Person , subsisting in two Natures : from whence it followeth , that seing the Body of Christ hath no other subsistence , then that of his Godhead ; That therefore where his body is , there also is his Diuinity . Both which Articles being true , & acknowledged by the Protestants , it vnauoydably followeth , that ( once supposing and granting the Reall Presence for true doctrine ) neyther the Sacrament is maymed or imperfect vnder one kind ; nor that lesser grace or fruyte is giuen vnder one kynd , then vnder both . And thus farre of this poynt . The Catholicke Doctrine touching Relicks of Saincts Bodyes ; the signe of the Crosse ; Praying vpon Bea●es ; Benediction of Creatures &c. FIrst touching Relicks of Saincts Bodyes . Whereas the a Centurists do charge vs Catholicks , that the Relicks of Saincts bodyes are worshipped by vs , with diuine honour ; and that we do pray vnto them , as if they did heare vs , or were liuing . To this I answere . It is a most impudent and lying slaunder , fitting to proceede from the tongues of such falfe Apostles . For which of vs Catholicks haue euer inuoked the Relicks of any Sainct ? Or who of vs was euer heard to say : Holy Relicks pray for vs ? The honour we do to them is this . We worship Relicks with the same inferiour worship , as we do to other religious things : And this we do , as reputing them the holy pledges of our Patrons ; and as being parcells of those bodyes , wherein the Holy Ghost did vouchsafe to inhabite ; and which hereafter at the day of generall Resurrection of our bodyes , shal be reunited to their glorious soules now in Heauen : But we neyther honour them , as God : nor inuoake them , as Saincts . And this is the very answere , which S. b Ierome made to Vigilantius ( the Hereticke ) denying ( as Protestants now do ) the lawfull worship of Relicks . The worship of Relicks giuen by vs Catholicks , is warranted by the authorityes of the second c Nicene Councell , by the Councell d Gangreuse , as also by the practise of the auncient Fathers : to wit e Athanasius , f Basill , g Chrysostome , h Ambrose , i Ierome , and ( to omit diuers others ) k Auttin himselfe : who thus writeth hereof : Sanctorum corpora & praecipuè Beatorum Martyrum reliquias , ( ae si Christi membra ) syncertssime honor anda credimus : si quis contra hanc sententiam venerit , non Christianus , sed Eunomianus & Vigilantianus creditur . We do beleiue , that the bodyes of Saincts , and especially the relicks of blessed Martyrs are to be honored , ( as the members of Christ ) And who impugneth this sentence , is not to be reputed a Christian , but an Eunomian and Vigilantian . Thus S. Austin . The euidency of the auncient rathers iudgments hereof , appeareth from the open confessions of the learned Protestants . For O●●ander the Protestant thus reprooueth S. Ierome . l Ierome did foolishly contend that the relicks of Saincts are to be worshipped . In like sort , where Ierome thus writeth : m Constantinus imperator sanctas reliquias Andreae , Lucae , & Timothei transtulit Constantinopolni , apud quas dae 〈…〉 rugiunt . Constantin the Emperour did cause the holy relicks of Andrew , Lucke , and Timothee to be carryed to Constantinople , whereat the very Deuils did roare or rage . Now Bullenger ( the Protestant ) thus taxeth Ierome . n S Ierome is ouerfall , in that he saith , the Diuills did roare at the holy relicks of Andrew . The said B●●lenger o confesseth , that many holy men of God ( he styling them , Sancti Dei homines ) did hould the doctrine of worshipping of Relicks : and in lieu of answere , thus sayth : studium Dei habent , sed non secundum scientiam . Touching Pilgrimages to the bodyes & relickes of Saincts , the Centurists do thus write : p De peregrinationibus ad loca sacra , caeperunt hoc seculò primum sub Constantino , locaterrae Sanctae in praecio habert : Helenama●er Imperatoris ( mulier superst 〈…〉 sa ) illuc profect a ador andi carsa &c. Touching pilgrimages to Holy places , the places of the holy Land did beginne first in this age vnder Constantin , to be had in estimation and respect ; Helen the mother of Constantine ( being a superstitious Woman ) did goe thither , to the end to worship them . Thus the Centurists . The sayd Centurists do in like sort thus condemne Constantine himselfe : q plane simili superstitione , Constantinus reliquias quasdam de Cruce ( ab Helena reperta ) Constantinopolni dicitur transtulisse , vt esset eius Verbis conseruatrix . ●ust with the like superstition , Constantiue is reported to haue translated certaine relicks of the Crosse ( found by Helen ) to Constantinople : that they might be the 〈◊〉 of the Citty . Touching Miracles , wrought at the Sepulchres and bodyes of Saincts , the Protestants do no lesse acknowledge the same for first Luther thus confesseth : r Who can deny those things , which God to this day worketh miraculously and visibly ( ad diuorum Sepulora ) at the Monuments of the Saincts ? In lyke sort Cempnitius thus confe●eth : s Apud Augustinum , in translatione Reliquiarum Stephan● , mulier caeca illuminatae est ; & aliquando quaedam miracula ad reliquias edebantur . Austin recordeth , that vpon the transl●tion of the Relicks of Steuen , a blynd Woaman was restored to sight , and that sometymes certaine Miracles were wrought at the presence of Relicks . And the Centurists affirme the lyke , thus wryting : Si t Ambrosio credimus , agri , qui vestes Sanctorum manu contigissent , sanabantur ; obs●ssi liber●bantur &c. Yf we beleiue Ambrose , Sick● persons , who touched with their hands the vestments of Saincts , were cured , and persons possessed with euill spirits , were theareby freed of them . Finally D. Whitakers geueth a full allowance and approbation of all such relations in these words : u Nec illa miracula vanafuisse put● , quae in Martyrum monumentis facta narrantur . I do not hould those Miracles , as vayne or idle , which are related to haue been exhibited , at the monuments or sepulcres of Saincts . Thus much ton●hi●g ●●licks , the true and Catholicke doctrine whereof may receaue it most full and vndowbted prouffe ( if all aboue spoken , were false ) euen from Gods holy writ . For do we not find , that Moyses x vsed great reuerence to the bones of Ioseph the Patriarch ? As also did not Iosias y the lyke to the bones of an other Prophet ? And were not Miracles wrought , by the dead bones of Elizeus , z by the shadow of S. Peter , a and by the Nappkin of S. b Paule ? Therefore if the Protestants will ad wit the old and New Testament ; they must consequently admit the Catholicke doctrine of Relicks . In this next place , we will come to the signe of the Crosse ; which we make vpon our foreheads , which is so much disliked by the Protestants . When a Catholicke signeth hymselfe with the signe of the Crosse , be but only implicitly des●●eth that by this signe ; which ex 〈…〉 citly and by mediation of words , he desireth by prayers . For seeing the signe of the Crosse doth figure out to the eye our Sauiours Passion ; and seing the secret desires of the hart are manifested and made knowne , as well by signes of the bodye ( as dumbe Men , and such as cannot speake , are accustomed to make ) as by prayers and words of the tongue : Therefore if it be lawfull for me with the tongue to pray , that God will forgiue my sinns , through the Meritts of Christ his death and Passion ; It must needs then consequently be lawfull for me , to pray to hym to the same end , without words , by making the signe of the Crosse : Seing the making of this signe , with an intention of internall Prayer ( the Crosse being the badge and remembrance of our Sauiours death and Passion ) is all one , as to pray in words by vertue and force of the same death and Passion ; Since the hand in this case , by making the signe of the Crosse , doth supply the place and office of the rongue . The lawfulnes of this signe may be taken and proued . from the signs of the Old Testament ; So the Bloud of the c Lambe , sprinckled vpon the posts of Howses , did signify nothing els , but the signe of the Crosse vpō the foreheads of Christians , by the authority of S. d Austin . In lyke sort , the signe : Tau , e which was commanded to be drawne vpon the foreheads of those , who lamented , was a manifest signe of the signe of the Crosse on the foreheads of Christians , by the iudgments both of S. f Cyprian and S g Ierome . The making of the signe of the Crosse was euer practized and iustified by the Fathers of the primatiue Church ; of which point see , h Dionisius , i Cyprian , k Cyrill , l Athanasius ) who saith : Sign●cru●●s omnia magica compescentur , by the signe of the Crosse all Magick is suppressed ) m Basil , n Ambrose , o Ierome , p Austin , besydes diuers others of the Greeke and Latin Church : The words of S. Austin I will heare set downe ; Thus then he wryteth : Quid est , quod omnes ●●uerunt : signum Christi , nisi crux Christi ? quod signum , in si adhibeatur siue frontibus credentium &c. What other thing is the signe of Christ ( which allmen know ) then the Crosse of Christ ? Which signe of the Crosse , except it be made vpon the forehead of the faythfull beleiuers ; vpon the water , by the which , they are regenerated ; vpon the oyle , with which Crisme they are anoynted ; vpon the Sacrifice , with which they are nurished , not any of these former mysteries are duly performed . Thus S. Austin . Ad hearto , that God hath vouchsafed to worke diuers Miracles by the signe of the Crosse , as appeareth by the frequent testimonyes of the Fathers ; to wit of q Tertullian , r Epiphanius , s Nazianzene , t Nysse●e , u Athanasius , x Ierome , y Austin and others : All which authorityes to contemne in this point , were most insolently to traduce so many learned and auncient Fathers ( and consequently the whole Church of God in those pure and primatiue tymes ) as superstitious , blynd , and ignorant . Now that the testimonyes of the former auncient Fathers ( though their owne words , for breuity , be not at large set downe ) both touching the worship giuen by them to the Crosse , ( I euer meane , such religious and inferiour worship , as is giuen to things consecrated to religious ends : farre different from that giuen to God ) and touching diuers Miracles wrought by the said signe , are most clear● , euident , and vnanswerable , appeareth from the acknowledgments of learned Protestants in this behalfe : And thus concordantly hereto , D●nae●s ( that learned Protestant ) thus wryteth : z Cyrill and sundry other Fathers were plainly superstitious and blynded with this enchantment of the Cros●es adoration . The Centuris●● thus wryte of S. Ambrose : a A●brosius multa comme●crat superstitios● de cruce 〈…〉 nta : Ambrose relateth many superstitious things of the Crosse , which was found . In like sort the said Protestants thus taxe Ephrem : b 〈…〉 is signationi nimium viditur tribuere : Ephrem is thought to ascrybe too much to the signe of the Crosse And yet Ephrem liued within little more then three hundre● yeres after Christ . The said Cent●rists , speaking of the age of Tertullian , ( who liued not much more , then two hundred yeres after Christ ) thus confesse : c Crucis Imaginem , seu in locis publicorum congress●um , s●u domi priuatim Christianos habuiss● indicare vide 〈…〉 Tertullianus : Tertullian seemeth to show , that the Christians ai● cause the signe of the Cross● to be made in places of publicke meetings , as also priuatly in their houses : D. Fulke , speaking of Paulinu● thus wryteth : d By the report of Paulinus the Crosse was by the Bishop of Ierusalem brought forth at Easter , to be worshipped of the People . The sayd Doctour thus wryteth of Cy●ili and Ruffinus , saying : e Ruffinus and Cyrill had a superstitious estimation of the signe of the Crosse . Now touching more particularly the miracles wrought ( in the Fathers iudgments ) by the signe of the Crosse , we find these confession ▪ following . And first , we find Osiander speaking of Iulian , thus to wryte : Iulianus metu perculsus , illico ex consuetudine Christianismi , frontem cruce signat , ●ibi Damones subito disparent ; Iulian being stroken with feare , according to the custome of Christians , did presently signe hymselfe with the signe of the Crosse ; and therevpon the Deuills did vanish away . M. Burges ( an English Protestant ) with exception only to the worshipping of the Crosse , thus wryteth of the Fathers in this poynt g There is nothing ascrybed to the Crosse ( in or out of Baptism● ) by the rankest Papists , but the Fathers are as deeply engaged in the same ; so as if we will vse it , as the Fathers did &c. we take the Soule to be fenced by crossing of the body , and the Crosse to haue vertue of consecrating the Sacrament , dryuing away Deuills , Witchcraft &c. To be short , Doctour Couel , speaking of those auncient tymes of the primatiue Fathers , thus tr●ly and ●ngenuo●sly confesseth : h No man can deny , but that God ( after the death of his Sonne ) manifested his power to the amazement of the world , in this contemptible signe ; as being the instrument of many Miracles . And thus far touching the Fathers iudgments of the worship due to the Crosse , and the Miracles , which God hath vouchsafed to worke by it , as his instrument ; an 〈◊〉 all this confessed by the learned Protestants . And with this I end ; putting the Reader in mind , that when a Crosse is made in Paper , wood , or stone &c. It is made to put the behoulder in remembrance of our Sauiours ' Passion and death ; And therefore that Man , who calumniateth thereat , sheweth greate ouerture , that he cannot willingly endure to heare of our Sauiours death and Passion : The Crosse being but to the Eye , as the Words are to the eare . In this next place , we will breifly touche praying vpon beades , benediction or blessing of Water , Sali , Aches , Candells &c. against which many Protestants do mightely inueigh , as charging the Catholicks the●rein , with Superstition ; affirming further , that the Catholicks do place a kynd of Diuinity in these matters . Into such strayts ( we see ) the Protestants are driuen , that whereas they are not able ( by any forcible arguments ) to ouerthrowe the Catholicke fayth in the greatest & cheifest articles , they therefore bend all their stenght to impugne these small rytes and Ceremonyes . And first , touching praying vpon beades . All Men know , it is but the repetition of the same prayers , seuerall tymes ; the beades seruing only but to number or counte the tymes . This Custome is warranted by the ex●mple of our Sauiour hymselfe , who being in the garden , did repeate one and the same prayer , to wit , i me●hree ●hree seuerall tymes . Now if it be lawfull to iterate one and the same prayer thryse ; it is lawfull ( by the same reason ) to iterate it many scores of tymes together . Againe , if it be lawfull to repeate the Lords prayer seuen tymes in a weeke ( for I presume , euery Protestant will confesse , he saith it once a day ) why then may he not repeate the said Lords prayer , or any other good and spirituall prayer , seauen tymes a day : and if seauen tymes , why not then any greater number of tymes ? Againe , once granting the prayer to be good ; the goodnes of the Prayer ( by force of all reason ) doth warrant the often repetition of it . The precise number or tymes of repeating one & the same prayer ( among Catholicks ) hath a mysticall reference , either to the number of Dauids Psalms ; or to the nūber of the yeeres , that our blessed Lady liued heare vpon earth : or to the number of our Sauiours wounds ; or to the number of the Persons in the most blessed Trinity : Or to some other such Mystery . The Antiquity of praying vpon Beads , is confested by the k Centurists and by l Osiander , to haue bene twellue hundred yeres since . In lyke sorte , the antiquity is recorded by m Zozomene , who saith , that Paule ( the Monke ) was accustomed to pray by counting the number of litle stones , in tyme of repeating his prayers ; Which is all one as to pray vpon beads . The words of Zozomene are these : Indi●s singulos trecentas orationes Deo , velut tributum quoddam , reddidit : ac neper imprudentiam in numero errant , tr●centis lappillis in sinum contectis , ad singulas preces , singulos inde e●ecit lapillos : consumptis igitur lapillis , constabit sibi orationes ( lapillis numero pares ) abs se explectos esse . And thus much touching praying vpon Beads . We will next de●●ende to the consecrating or blessing of Creaturs ( vsed in the Catholicke Church ) the lawfulnes whereof is warranted by the example of Christ himselfe ; n Who intending to multiplye the breads , did looke vp towards Heauen and blessed the breads ; and from that blessing of his did multiplye them . But certaine it is , that what our Sauiour did , is free from all reprehension . Againe , doth not the Apostle say : That o euery Creature is sanctified by the Word and prayer The Antiquity of Hollowing or blessing Creatures ( and particularly of holy water ) is very greate . For p Clemens , q Dionysius ( both who liued in the Apostles tymes ) r Cirill , s Cyprian , t Ambrose , u Austin , and others co make frequent mention of Holy Water , and the religious vse thereof . And hence it is , that the x Centurists do charge the Fathers ( liuing in the third age after Christ ) with superstition in blessing and hollowing of water ; among which Fathers S. y Cyprian , thus saith : Oportet mandari & sanctificari prius aquat a Sacerdote . Benediction of Oyle is mentioned and approued by Clemens , and Dionisius ( in the places aboue noted ) by z Basill , Austin , a Cyprian , who thus expresly b saith : Olium in Altari Sanctificatur by the Councel of c Leodice , by the second Councell of d Carthage , by the third Councell of e Carthage , by the first Councell of f Tole●● : Finally ( to omit the testimonyes hereof of other Councells , and g auncient Fathers ) the antiquity of Hollowing of Oyle ( and that particularly by a Bishop ( is acknowledged by the h Centurists , and by i Cempin 〈…〉 s. Benediction of breads ( and this besides the ●se thereof in the consecration of the Sacrament , ) is proued from the authority of S. k Austin , S. l Paulinus , and S. m Ierome ; the words of which last Father are these : Coneurrebant Episcopi , Presbiteri &c. vulgus ignobile , potentes viri & Iudices , vt benedictum ab eo panem vel ●leum acciperent . This poynt of the benediction of bread is so euident to haue bene practized in those auncient tymes , that D. n Fulke thus speaketh thereof : It was a superstitious bread giuen ( in S. Austins tyme ) to those , that were Catechumeni , in steede of the Sacrament . And Philip Mornay in lyke sort thus chargeth the Liturgy of S. Basill : It o alloweth holy bread to be distributed , after Seruice to such , as had not communicated . Benediction of Candells is acknowledged by the fourth Councell p of T 〈…〉 ledo , by Pope q Zozimus , S r Gregory , s Prudentius , and t Strabo : and according hearto the Centurists u do confesse the antiquity of this Ceremony to be greate : and withall do further confesse , that Candells did burne in the Church in the day tyme , in Constantyns dayes : thus wryting hereof : x Accensiones candel●rum interdiù in templis Constantinus instituit ; The proufe of which custome is further euident , out of the fourth Councell of y Carthage , z Eusebius , and a Ierome . The benediction of Palms and Ashes is proued from the authority of S. b Maximus . Now to reiect the authorityes of all the former Fathers , touching the benediction of Creatures , is to charge the Primatiue Church with superstition and errour : Which no Man either of humility , Charity , or learning , will do . Ad herto , that the Protestants themselfs do practice this consecration of Creaturs : For they do consecrate their new builded Colledges , and Ch 〈…〉 ches , or Chappell 's : yea ( which is most ridiculou . ) It hath bene obserued of late , that in some places of England . Yf a Catholicke hath bene buryed in a Church ( ●otwithstanding the Church was first builded by Gotholicks ) the Church ( as supposed , to be propha●ed by the dead body of the Catholicke ) hath beene by it Person and Ministers of new consectated and hollowed . Spectatam admissi ●isumteneatis . Now in this next place we will show the end , why Creatures are bless●d , by the prayers of the Chu●ch . Which end is threefould . First to signify spirituall effects : Thus the sprinkling of Ashes signifyeth penance : Palmes signify victory : the Paschal Candell betokeneth the glory of these Resurrection And thus they are vsed to stirrup our deuotion The second End is to take away veniall sinns : of which poynt S. c Thomas and d Dominicus a Soto , fully dispute . Now heare we are to conceaue , that as the bloud of Christ doth clense vs from all sinne , if so it be applied to vse by the Sacraments of Baptisme and Pēnance : so these Consecrated things and our Lords prayer do apply his bloud for the taking away of veniall sinne from hym , who is in state of grace . The third end is to dryue away wicked spirits , and to cure diseases , as appeareth from the prayers , by which they are consecrated . Neuer the lesse we are hea●e to know , that these consecrated things do not any worke theese effects , as the Sacraments ( wheare no let is ) do infallibly work their effects . And the reason heare of is , because these consecrated things haue not their force from any expresse couenant made by God ( as the acraments haue ) but from the Prayers of the Church , and denotion of the parties vsing them : Besides , sometymes it is not conuenient , that we should be freed from sicknes or diseases , or from the molestation of the Deuills . And according hearto we find , that the e Apostles did vse to annoynt the sicke with oyle , and they were cured . In like sort . f Epiphanius relateth , how Ioseph by holy water , did dissolue inca●tation and Magicke . And g Theodoret recordeth the same of Marcellus Apameensis ; and h Palladius of Macharius . Againe S. Ierome testifyeth , that S. Hilarion did cure diuers diseased Persons with holy bread and holy oyle . The like did S. i Bernard . S. k Gregory witnesseth that one S. Fortunatus did cure one of a brokē thigh , only by sprinkling holy water vpon it , and his owne prayers . Finally S. Bernard affirmeth , that S. Malachius did cure one , that was ph●anticke , by the meanes of Holy Water . Now these Examples do show , that it is not Negro 〈…〉 cy ( as the Protestants sometymes do tearme it ) to seeke to produce ( with the help of prayers ) supernaturall effect , by applying of holy water or holy oyle . That the Church of God hath authority to blesse Creaturs for the former ends , ( and for the furtherance of Denotien ) is prooued from her greater authority , practized in changing the Saboath day , from Saturday to Sunday ; And now it being thus changed , is 〈…〉 erable . m Which point by the confession of learned n Protestants , was wrought by the sole authority of the Church ; and is not warranted by any text or passage of Scripture . Now thus farre of all these former poynts . And heere I am to end ; aduertizing the Protestant Reader , that what is heere set downe , contaynes ( for greater breuity ) but short discourses of the said controuersyes heere handled ; and assuring him , that scarse the fift part of the prooff , and authorities , drawne from Gods holy Word , from the testimonyes of the Fathers , from the practise of Gods Church , and from the confession euen of our Aduersaryes are heere alledged , which might be produced , in warrant of the said Catholicks doctrines . And therfore I referre the Reader ( these be 〈…〉 uen , but for some delibation and tast aforehand ) for his greater satisfaction , to the many learned Catholicke Treati●es , written vpon the said subiects . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Michaeas . What do you reply hereto ? Are these discourses of your owne framing ? Againe ; If they be , how can you then free your selfe from that infinite Wrong , which you ( being a stranger ) offer to our state , in seeking thus by supplanting the Ghospell , to plant your owne false Religion ? And lastly , what were the Motyues , inducing you rather to diuulge these particuler doctrines , then diuers others of greater weight and consequence , which are still in Question betweene you and vs ? Belike there was some reason or this your election & choyce . MICHAEAS . My very good Lord. I will answere you to all your demands ; And herein my Tongue shal be a true Interpreter of my Hart. First , concerning the Authour . I do heere freely grant , I was the Man , who penned them ; who taugh them : and who through Gods grace and assistance , wil be ready to seale the truth of them ( if need should so requyre ) with my bloud . Concerning the choyce made of these Controuersyes , among many others of as great , or greater importance , now ventilated betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants . Your Lordship may be aduertized , that the true reason was ; because I do find by experience , that the common and ignorant Protestant of meaner conceate , and whose vnderstanding is vsually immersed in sense , seemeth to take more exception at these Catholicke doctrines , then at others , heere not discoursed off . The cause hereof I take to be , in that most of these consist in practize ( and consequently , are dayly subiect to the outward sense ) Whereas those other , for the cheife part , do lye inspeculation ; & thereby are further remooued from the apprehension of the vnlgar ; whose vnderstandings herein are commonly like to boysterous Instruments , vnportionable and insutable to worke vpon any fine and curions matter . For I grant , that though they were principally written for fome students of the vniuersity of good talents ; yet secondarily my intention was , the instructing of the vnlearned Protestant , in the said Catholicke doctrines . That they are heere handled so breifly , is in regard of the multiplicity of the Questions : each of which , if it were at large disputed off , would requyre no small Treatise ; And therefore I haue rather vndertaken to set downe ( besides some few prooffs of them ) the true state of euery such Catholicke poynt ( so to vindicate is from the foule mistaking of the Aduersary ) then in the fullest manner by authorities , to confirme & fortify them . LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Well touching these two former poynts , you haue answered ( and in part sat s●yed ) me . But what say you to the iniury by you wrought , not only against the vniuersity ; but euen against the whole state ? Which cannot by our owne stat●ts and Decrees , brooke such tumultuous proceedings in any Man , much lesse in forayners ; as to labour to disioynt the beautifull 〈◊〉 me of that Religion , which the whole Realme for these many yeares , hath so peaceably enioyed . MICHAEAS . Most Reuerend ludge . Giue me leaue without offence , to vse the words only al 〈…〉 uely , not comparatiuely ▪ of that great Apostle ; who like my selfe , was once a Iew , but after a Christian : Neither * against the Law , nor against the temple of God , nor against Caeser , haue I any thing offended . It is true , And this I confesse with comfort ( for discomfort is the ordinary attendant of a faulty guiltines , that I much labored ( and to that end cheifly penned these short Discourses ) to dissem 〈…〉 ate the true faith of these points in the minds of the Schollars of my acquaintance ; And why might I not ? Since the valew of an a 〈…〉 yleable fayth is so great , as that without it no man ; with it all men may stand gratefull in Gods eye : Sine a fide impossibile est placere Deo. Consider my L. the price but of one Soule , which our Sauiour hath ransomed out of the Deuills hands , with so high a reate : ( humiliauit * semetipsum , factus obediens vsque ad mortem ; mortem autem crucis ) And then thinke , what greife it were , that this Soule through want of true fayth , should returne to it former thraldome . Alas my L. Is 〈…〉 not greate pitye , to see diuers yong students of eleuated Witts and apprehencsions , either to receaue their Religion ( which they beleiue to be true ) from the bare affiance and trust of their Readers and Maysters , without any further examining or tryall of it ; Or els litle to pryze any Religion at all ? And thus in this later maner , this poore Materia Prima being Forml●sse , is ready indifferently and without choyce , to entertayne the impression of any Religion . Now is it not great pitye ( I say ) to suffer these Soules to perish eternally , as not hauing an articulate & perfect Christian fayth ? Which fayth ought so to be qualified ; seing it auayleth litle to beleiue in Christ , except we beleiue truly in Christ : For though fayth be heare to be requyred ; yet a false fayth is as preiudicial , as a meare Misbeleiffe : So light is more necessary to the eye , then darknes ; yet not being well proportioned , is more dangerous to the eye , then darknes . And indeed ( my L. ) I must confesse , that I do more fully glasse their danger in my owne former want of fayth , when I continued a lew ; And am in this respect more ready to imparte the benefit of that to others , of which my selfe haue allready so fully tasted . Now for this my attempt ( my selfe being an Alien ) I must shrowd it vnder the wings of the lyke attēmpts of S. Peter , and other the Apostles ; who were not afrayd to go ( by our Lords commandement ) into strange Countreyes , to preach & teach the faith of Christ : * Euntes in mundum vniuersum , praedicate Euangelium omni Creaturae . And my good Lord : I must therefore further say , that though a Zeraphicall and burning zeale in this kind , may in an humane eye , seeme to be but a kind of madnes ; And that high Vertues of this Nature ( through want of due consideration ) do rather offend , then please ; yet since the Apostles did first tract this vnusuall path , their example hath more emboldned me to tread herein their stepps . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Good God. See vnto what an assent of impiety Mans nature is arryued . I meane heere , not only to do euill , but to make the Holy Apostles patrons of the said euill . No Michaeas : As soone may the Idoll Dagon stand by the Arke , as your pernitious Machinations beare affinity with the actions of the Apostles . You preach not Christ , but Antichrist ; and you must remember , that Christ himselfe said : Who * gathereth not with me , scatereth . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour , I see , you much labour to haue the aduantage of the day against mee : so willing you are , that I should lye prostrate with the basest shame . Yet my comfort is that Innocency ( though oppressed ) still continues Innocency . But to come to the poynt . What haue I donne , which the glorious Apostles may not seeme to haue donne ? They went into forayne Countryes , without any peculiar licence of the Princes of them , to preach the Gospell of Christ : I heare ( being a stranger ) haue aduentured to initiate some students in the fayth of Rome , which is the sole true fayth of Christ . They preached peaceably without raising of tumults , or teaching disobedience against the Prince of the Country : I did yet neuer intimate in my words or actions the least spote of disobedience , against the supreme Magistrate ; since I hould it a mighty errour , to seeke ●o order things by disorderly courses . They most happely pulled thousands of Soules out of the iawes of the Deuil : I do confesse , my sole end was to do some good in that kynd , if so God would vouchsafe to blesse therein my endeuours ; And most ioyfull I should be , if through my owne labour ( vnder Christ ) I might say , but of any one straying Soule , with the good Father in the Gospell : This * my sonne was dead , but is reuyued ; was lost , and is found . Breifly , the● for such their accheiuements , finished their dayes in most bl●ssed Martyrdomes : O that might be so happy , as to ●ede●me ●y maninfold 〈◊〉 with so glorious a death : so true is that sentence ; The bloud of Martirs is the key of Paradise . Heere now my good L. Yf you condemne me , how can you free them ? Therefore either absolue me with them , or accuse them with me : Since all of vs be either guilty , or all Innocent . Yf guilty ; I glorye to haue such Precedents of this my imaginary Cryme ; Yf innocent ; Why then do I stand at this wofull barre of Iustice , pleading ( if not for lyfe , at least ) for Liberty ? LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE . Although these your molitions and endeauours [ Mich●as ] may seeme to proceede from a feruour and zeale ; Yet I feare , this your zeale is branded with those words of S. Paul : b Aemulationem Dei habent , sed non secundum scientiam . Since diuers Men haue certaine impetuosityes and violent straynes of Nature , which ( because in their owne priuate conceats , they meane well ) they feare not to guild ouer with the fayre title of Christian zeale . Againe [ Mich●as ] wheare you seeke to sheyld your attempts , vnder the example of the Apostles , your mistaking heare is ouer grosse : since they preached the incontaminated and vnspoted fayth of Christ ; and weare therefore not only excusable , but euen warranted by the Holy Ghost ; Whereas you do teach a religion , mixted with diuers errours , and humane Inuentions ; and therefore farre different from that , first planted by the Apostles . MICHAEAS . My Lord. What colours soeuer of disgrace and contumely may ( in an other Mans eye ) be layed vpon theese my actions ; yet to my selfe I am best priuy , that they proceeded from my sole desire of aduancing the fayth of Christ , and from the bent of a strong affection , and loue towards hym : Amor c meus , pondus meum ; illo feror , quocunque feror . Which loue and promptitude ought to be so intense and vehement , as that indeede it cannot transgresse any bounds , within which it may seeme to be limited . And therefore I heare hold it an extreame , to seeke in these actions to auoid the Extreame ; where the Excesse ( if any such can be ) putteth on the nature of the Meane . O my Lord , when the Apostle did write those fiery words : d Praedica Verbum , insta oportunè , importunè : argue , obsecra , increpa &c. No doubt he taught vs thereby , that in the preaching of the true Christian fayth , we should performe it with all improperation , speedines , and alacrity ; not loosing the tyme in any ceremonious delayes . Now my Lord , where you say , that the fayth taught by me , is different from the fayth first planted by the Apostles ; I hereto answere ( though most breifly , since this tyme is not capable of any long Discourse : ) Yf that Christian Religion , wherewith Rome was first cultiuated & tilled by the labours of the Apostles , did neuer since that time to this day , suffer the least change in any dogmaticall & materiall poynt ; Then followeth it ineuitably , that our present Catholick Religiō is the same , which was preached by the Apostles ; and consequently , that I ( contrary to your L. supposall ) do heere instruct the Academians in the same fayth and Religion , which first florished in those primatiue tymes . Now that neuer any change was made at Rome in poynts of fayth and Religion , your Lordship may be fully satisfyed , by perusing the former Dialogue , betweene the Honorable Cardinall and Doctour Whitakers . VICE-CHANCELOVR . My Lord. Michaeas will tyre you with his wearisome speeches , and ( if you would suffer him ) will perorate whole dayes togeather ; for he hath a peculiar deliuery of himselfe in seeking to decline his accusations , by framing his tedious discourses , touching the supposed honour of his owne Religion ; wholy impertinent to that , for which he now stands arraigned . Therefore to cut off all such exhorbitancyes of speeches , I now in your L. presence ( to the greater accumulation of his former crymes ) do in this last place , accuse him of being a Popish Priest : a pernicious state of Men , and such , as your Lordship well knowes , is incompatible with the Lawes of our Realme . Thus we may obserue , how the ouershadowing Prouidence of God hath disposed in these matters , that if ( by supposall ) his former faults might passe vncorrected , yet this last breaketh through the bounds of all Commiseration and Pitty . Therefore your L. may do well to examyne him strictly hereof , and cause him to answere without any reserued sense of equiuocation ; the peculiar Dialect of the Papists in like cases . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Perceaue you not heere Michaeas , how in your accusation one cryme is euer at the backe of an other ; like waues following one another , till they all ouerflow and ouerwhelme you ? You are heere lastly accused to be one of that state of Men ( I meane , a Romish Priest ) which are insufferable in our Nation ; and whom ( as guilty of many foule transgressions ) our Lawes do most seuerely punish : Tell me therefore directly , whether you be a Priest , or no. MICHAEAS . Sweete Iesus , what sallyes of Malice hath your tongue [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] made in this your long Processe of my accusation ? First by charging me with reall disobedience to the supreme Magistrate , then with penning the foresaid Catholicke Treatises ; and now ( for the close of all ) with being a Priest : Where I see , howsoeuer my cause be good , yet I must be reputed Euill . But leauing that , and to answere to my Lords last Question . Since then I am demaunded thereof , I will not conceale my greatest honour . I grant , I am a Catholicke and Roman Priest , created by the reuerend hand of the most illustrious and learned Bellarmine . But is the very name of a Priest ( though otherwise , not to be charged with any fault ) so distastfull in this place ? Or shall it be at any tyme heere asked , Cur de solo nomine punitis facta ? Your Lordshipps iudgment ( no dowbt ) would hearein be altered , if so you would vouchsafe to take into your Consideration , the antiquity of the holy Order of Pryesthood . since our Sauiour hymselfe was the first Priest in the tyme of Grace ; typically adumbrated by that of Melchisadech : Tu f es Sacerdos socundum ordinem Melchisadech ; Of which poynt the goldentonged Father thus wryteth : Videns g typum , cogita ( oro ) veritatem : Thus Christ was the supreme Priest ; Man , but the Ministeriall Priest . O how reuerently do the auncient Fathers speake of Priesthood ? Nazianzene tearmeth a Priest , the Mediatour betweene God and Man. Chrysostome honored Prieshood so much , as that he did wryte a booke , entituling it : De Sacerdotio ; among infinit other passages of which subiect , he thus saith : Non Angelus , non Archangelus , non alia quaeuis creata potentia ; sed ipso Paracle●us Ordinem eiusmodi disposuit : Neither Angel , nor Archangell , nor any created Power ; but only our Aduocate & Comforter ( Meaning Christ ) did institute this Order of Pryesthood . Ambrose in like sort did wryte of this subiect ; styling his Treatise : De dignitate Sacerdotale ; In which booke , speaking of the manner how a Priest is created , thus wryteth in the first Chapter thereof : Homo imponit manum , Deus langitur gratium ; Sacerdos imponit simplicem dexteram , Deus benedicit potenti dexiera : Man doth impose the hand , but God giueth the grace , The Priest doth lay his humble hand ( meaning , vpon hym , who is to be made Pryest ) But God doth blesse with his pouerfull hand . Leo the first , thus worthely wryteth hereof : Omnium i Sacerdotum tam excellens est electio , vt haec , quae in alijs membris Ecclesiae vacant a culpa , in illis tamen habeantur illicita : The state of all Pryests is so noble , as that some things theare are ( meaning , mariadge of Pryests ) which being lawfull in other members of the Church , are neuerthelesse prohibited in them . To be short , Pac●nus thus amplifieth vpon this poynt : k Plebi vnde Spiritus , quam non consignat vnctus Sacerdos ? How can that Society or company of Men receaue the Holy Ghost , if the annoynted Priest doth not signe & blesse them ? Thus farre in generall of the dignity of Pryesthood , which I hope in modesty , and without the lest tuche of Vanity , I may alledge ; forbearinge many more authorityes of lyke nature ; lest my producing of them might be misconstiued ( my selfe being a Priest , and therefore interressed in them ) by some one or other deprauing tongue . VICE-CHANCELOVR . What you haue heare [ Michaeas ] alledged out of Antiquity in honour of Priesthood , we willingly acknowledge ; since it was then ment , and now is truly applyed to the Ministers of the Ghospell , and others of the faythfull ( in regard of the spirituall sacrifices of Prayer , dayly offered vp by them ) who therefore in a metaphorical and improper acceptance of the word : Pryest ( and as the phraze is , ) are tearmed Pryests . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour You are fowly mistaken heerein , & willing ( it seemes ) you are to vendicate to your owne Ministerial function the prayses due to Priesthood . But I hope , you will stand to the iudgment of S. Austin and other Fathers herein . S. Austin then thus speaketh of this poynt : l Soli Episcopi & Presbiteri propriè vocantur in Ecclesia Sacerdot s. Thus Austin by expressely calling Bishops & Presbyters only Priests , excludeth this secondary and improper signification of the word Priest , which you seeme heare to mantayne ; and which in your sense may be truly extended to Weomen , who offer vp the Sacrifice or prayer to God , as well as Men. And according hereto it is , that Ireneus , m acknowledging with you , that in a restrayned sense all iust Men may be called Priests doth further teach a peculiar Pryesthood of the Apostles ( different from the former kynd of Pryesthood ) which ( saith he ) dayly attends vpon God and the Altar . And hence also it is , that the greeke Word : 〈…〉 ereus , which properly signifieth : Sacerdos , is applyed to Christian Pryests by n Eusebius , o Ierome , p Ignatius , and finally ( to omit others ) by q Dionysius Areopagita . I may ad in further warrant of this Truth , that the auncient Fathers do make frequent mention of Altars , now to be in the Church of Christ . But the word : Altar , hath euen by the confession of D. r Raynolds a necessary and inseparable reference to the words : Pryest , and Sacrifice , as they are taken in their proper and naturall signification ; since they are Relatiues , And seing euery Altar hath a relation to a true and real Sacrifice , and to a Pryest , as the Word is properly taken , and as the said Pryest doth offer vp a true and reall Sacrifice . That the Fathers do often mention Altars , now to be in the Church of Christ , you may [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] peruse , s Austin , t Chrisostome , u Optatus , x Dyonisius Areo pogita , and finally the y Canons of the Apostles . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Howsoeuer the Primatiue Fathers may take the word ; Priest , It is not much materiall to vs , who heere relye only vpon the pure word of God , interpreted to vs by the Holy Ghost : yet sure I am , that Those Priests , ( who come into England ) do arrogate vnto themselues a dooble Prerogatiue , of which all Antiquity was wholy ignorant . The first is , in vndertaking to reconcile men to the Pope , ( our states designed enemy . ) And so by this meanes , to alienate them in their allegiance from their owne natiue Prince and soueraigne : The second , in assuming to them power to offer vp in the Masse , the body & bloud of Christ : Which once for all was offered vp for the whole world vpon the Crosse . Now both these attempts are deseruedly punished by our Lawes , for their acrocityes therein committed ; And to the daunger ( decreed against them ) your selfe [ Michaeas ] rests obnoxious ; seing you ( being a Priest ) haue no doubt often practized them both , since your arriuall into England . MICHAEAS . It is wonderfull to obserue how Malice ( taking the place of Ignorance ) seeleth vp Mans iudgment for I presume [ M. Vice-Chancelour . ] You cannot be ignorant of the vntruth of these your assertions . Therefore for the better satisfying of you ( Myreuerend Iudge ) whom in all reason and duty I am bound to satisfy . You are heere to know , that what M. Vice-Chancelour calleth reconciling to the Pope , is nothing els , but an incorporating of one into Christ Church ( if so afore he was no member thereof ) by Confession of his sinnes , ( accompanied with a resolution neuer to sinne more ) to a Catholicke Priest , and absolution thereof giuen by the said Priest ; Or if he were afore a branch of the said Mysticall Body , then is this M. Vice-Chancelour reconciling , a meere penitent Confession of our sinnes to a Catholicke Priest ; attended on with an absolution from the said sinnes : By force of which Sacrament , we ouercome him , who is inuincible , and restrayne him , who is Omnipotent . Now heare I demand in all sincerity , how these spirituall Actions of a penitent sinner may be reputed preiudiciall to his Loyalty to his Prince ? Or what necessary reference hath the one to the other ? Or shall we thinke , that in Catholicke Coūtryes ( for the reason is the same of Catholicks , liuing either in Catholicke or Protestante Countries ) one renounceth his Loyalty to his Prince , by recurring to this spirituall physick , for the curing of his soules disseases ? Alas ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) I much greiue , to see you thus drunke ( as I may say ) with malice , as to forge such strange and forced interpretations of the Priests and Catholicks proceedings hearein . And I pray you , how can it be conceaued ( M. Vice-Chancelour ) that our prop●●quity towards God ( for such a nearnes is wrought , by a true & penitent Confession ) should be presumed to cause a greater distance of our obedience from our Prince ? and that our state of grace in the sight of God , should be censured as a state of Disloyalty in the eye of Man ? No. The case is mearly contrary to your supposall . For since absolute Princes are the Vicegerents of God , and in that respect are tearmed Gods : a Ego dixi dij estis . And since we are bound to obey our Prince , euen propter b conscientiam : Therefore we may truly inferre , that a fearefull Conscience , loath to offend God , or through f 〈…〉 ty offending ; yet willing by the Sacrament of pennance & absolu●ion to expiate it sinns , is euer most ready to performe it d 〈…〉 y ( 〈…〉 en for feare of Gods displeasure ) to 〈◊〉 soueraigne . And that such Men , as want this ten ●ernes of conscience , ●●e loyall subiects so long only , as their owne temporall and humane respects do comport with this their loyalty . VICE-CHANCELOVR . You speake much [ Michaeas ] of your Priestly function , in absoluing of sinnes , confessed . But you should prooue ( if you can ) since it is most materiall ; that such Men , as were tearmed Priests in the Primatiue Church , did heare the confessions of other Mens sinnes , and did giue absolution of them , so confessed . And if you cannot make this good , from the Precedents of those firster and purer tymes ; we must then rest assured , that this your assumed authority , is but a meere Innouation , ingendred betweene the pryde of the Priest ( taking vpon him Gods person heerein for we read : Quis potest dimittere peccata , nisi solus Deus ? Marc. 2. ) and the scrupulous superstition of the confessed Penitent . MICHAEAS . It is true , that only God originally , primatiuely , and immediatly remitteth sinne ; and in this sense the Scripture speaketh of only God remitting of sinne ; yet is his diuine Maiesty pleased to vse Man , as his instrument therein , according to those words of our Sauiour to the Apostles : d Whose sinnes you shall forgiue , they are forgiuen ; and whos● sinnes you shall retayne , they are retayned . From which passage we further inferre , that seing some sinnes are to be retayne● , and not remitted ; it followeth inauoydably , that we are obliged particularly and distinctly to confesse our sinnes to the Priest . For how can the Priest know , what sinnes are to be retayned , and what sinnes to be remitted , except he know , which the sinnes be in particular ? Ad heereto , that if God vouchsafest to vse Water ( a creature much more base , then Man ) as his instrument , for the taking away of Originall sinne ; then much more may Man , as his instrument , and receauing his authority heerein from the words of Christ , and from his Passion ( which giue force and efficacy to ●ich Sacrament , now in the tyme of grace ) practize without sacriledge the same authority . that the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church ( contrary to your former bold assertion , M. Vice-Chancelour ) did concordantly teach & practize our Catholicke doctrine herein , is most euident . I will not ouerwhelme you with multitude of their testimonyes ( though all of them are most luxuriant in such their sentences ) therefore th●●e or foure of them , and such as are most auncient , shall serue . Heere then first , I will produce the words of Saint Basill , thus wryting : e Necessario peccata ijs apperiri debent , quibus credita est dispensatio mysteriorum Dei ▪ si quidem rationem hanc in paerite●●ia etiam veteres illos ●ernimus secutos fuisse . Our sinnes ought of necessity to be reuealed to them , to whom is committed the dispensing and distribution of the mysteries of God ; And th●s● ou se in Pennance we do find , that the auncient Christians did follow . Thus we see , that this authority and words of Saint Basill simply a necessity of confession of our sinnes to the Priest ; and consequently a particular relation of them . Saint Leo thus conspireth with Saint Basill : Cum f reatus conscientiarum sufficiat solis Sacerdotibus iudicari confessione s●creta &c. Seing it is sufficient ; that the guiltines of our consciences be made knowne only to Priests , in secret confession &c. where you may see , that confession of sinnes in those dayes was made secret , and only vnto Priests . Saint Austin thus agreeth with the former Fathers : Non solum * post paenitentiam &c. Not only after Pennance is prescribed , a Man ought to keepe himselfe from those vices ; but also before pennance , whiles he is sound ; who if he should deferre it all his last end , Nescit , si ipsam p●nitentiam accipere , & De● , & Sacerdoti peccata sua confiteri poterit ; He knoweth not ; whether he shall haue power to receaue his pennance , and to confesse his sinnes to God , and to a Priest . S. Cyprian thus wryteth of this poynt : g quantò fide maiore & timore meliore sunt , qui quantum●●uis nullo sacrifi●ij aut libelli faci●ore constricti ; quontam tomen de hoc vel cogitauerunt , hoc ipsum apud Sacerdotes Dei volenter & simpliciter confidentes , exomologesni conscientiae faciunt ; animi pondus expenum , salut●rem meaelam paruis licet & modicis vulneribus exquirunt ? How much more greater fayth and better feare haue they , who though they be not guilty of any cryme touching Sacrifice , or giuing vp a Libel ; yet because they had such a conceate or thought , they do with greiffe and simplicity confesse this to Priests &c. Thus do they disburden their consciences , and seeke to apply a healthfull remedy to their small wounds ? Now heere by the words : Sacrifice , and Libel , are to be vnderstood , sacrifizing to Idolls in the tymes of the Heathen Emperours , and giuing vp their names in a booke , that they were content to sacrifize . To be short , Tertullian thus sayth of this custome of confessing our sinnes to a Priest . Plerosque hoc opus aut subfugere , aut de die in diem differie presumo , pudor●● magis memores , quam salutis ; velut illi , qui in partibus verecundieribus corporis , contracta vaxatione , scientiam Medentium vitant , & ita cum e●●bescentia sua pereunt : I do presume , that diuers do eyther anoyd this worke ( meaning of confessine their sinnes ) or do deferre 〈◊〉 from day to day ; being more mindfull of their shame , then of their health : They being heerein like to those Men , who hauing some dis●●se in their more secret parts of their body , do flee the cure of Physitians ; and so they perish through their owne shame . Thus Tertullian , from whose testimony is necessarily euicted particular confession of our priuat sinnes , euen according to the nature of his similitude heere vsed . This point of the auncient Fathers iudgment touching confession of our particular sinnes to a Priest , is so deere and manifest , that the Centurists discoursing of the vse thereof , in those former tymes , thus plainly acknowledge : i Si quis paenitentiam agebant peccatum prius confirebantur . ac enim confessionem magnoperè Tertullianus vrget in libro de P●nitentia ; & institutem fuisse priuatam Confessionem , qua delicta & cogitata praua confessisunt , ex aliquot Cypriani locis apparet . &c. Yf any in those tymes did pennance ; they did first confesse there sinn●e : for thus doth Tertullian mightely vrge Confession in his booke de Paenitentia : And that priuate Confession was then in vse , by the which sinnes & euen wicked thoughts were confessed , appeareth from certaine places of Cyprian ; to wit , out of his fift sermon de Lapsis , & lib. 3. Epist . epist . 14. and 16. Thus farre the Centurists ( all eminent Protestants ) who ( we see ) do grant , that in those tymes , euen priuat thoughts ( much more particular actu●ll sinnes ) were accustomed to be confessed . Which Centurists do further witnesse , that the Priest did in those tymes , absolue the penitent ( besides by pronouncing the words of Absolution ) with the Ceremony * of imposing her hand : a ceremony , which at this very day , is vsed by the Priests . And thus ( My Honorable Lord , and you M. Vice-Chancelour ) you both may from hence perceaue , how neere to the Apostles dayes Confession of particular sinnes ( euen by the acknowledgment of the Protestants ) was vsually practized : Which point being granted , it must by force of all Re●son follow , that Christ did first institute this Sacrament of Confession , and the Apostles did first exercize their authority therein , giuen to them by Christ . Since otherwise it cannot probably be conceaued , that a dogmaticall point of fayth and Religion , so crosse and repugnant to Mans nature ( as Confession is , could in so short a tyme , inuade the whole Church of God , without any contradiction or resistance . VICE-CHANCELOVR . Michaeas , you haue spoken much in warrant of Confessiō and Asolution , geuen by the Pryest . But the question ( in regard of your former alledged authorityes ) is not so much , whether Confession of particular sinns was generally taught by those auncient Fathers ; as whether they had iust reason and warrant so to teach ? But I will passe no censure of them , touching this point . But [ Michaeas ] what do you say to that assumed authority and priuiledge , which you Pryests vendicate to yourselfes , in the sacrifice of the Masse ? Wheare you bease the people in hand , that you sacrifize and offer vp the true and naturall body and bloud of Christ to his Father . I am assured , that the auncient Church of God cannot affoard you any example hereof ; And the rather , since it is manifest , that the doctrine of Transubstantiation ( vpon which your doctrine of sacrifice is grounded ) was first brought into the Church , at the Councell of Lateran by Innocentius the third ; Which Councell was houlden anno ●215 . And therefore it was celebrated many hundred yeres , after the Period of the Primatiue Church . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour The sequ●le will show of what Antiquitie the doctrine is conce●ning the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ . Which is dayly offered vp by the Priest . But first , I will take away your stumbling block , touching the name of Transubstantiation , imposed by the Councell of Lateran . For the better remouall whereof , you are to conceaue , that the doctrine of the re●ll being of Christs body and bloud in the Sacrament of the 〈◊〉 , and Sacrifice of the Masse was taught , in all the precedentages ; though the word : Transubstantiation , ( for the better explicating of the doctryne , was then ( and not before ) inuented : Euen as the doctrine of the Trinity , was eue● in the first infancy of the Church generally beleeued ; yet the word ; Trinity , was first imposed vpon the doctrine , by Councell of Nice . But to proceede further , touching the Antiquity of the doctryne of the sacrifice of the Masse . We first answeare herto , that it receaued it first institution and beginning , euen from the night before , the Creatour of all flesh did suffer in flesh . For our Sauiour being at his last suffer , did then first institute it , when ●e deliuered to his Apostles his owne body and bloud , saying : This is my body . This is my Bloud &c. With reference to which institution , the Apostle calleth the table ( vpon which this sacrifice is made , k _____ to wit an Altar , being deriued of the verb. _____ signifying : Sacrifice . But let vs see in what dialect Antiquity speaketh hereof . Some few places ( among infinit ) I will heare select : first then we find S Austin thus to say : Quid l gratius osserria●t s●scipi possit , quam c●r● sacrificij nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri ? What can be offered vp , or accepted more thankfully , then the flesh of our sacrifi● being made the body of our Priest ? Chrysostome thus wryteth : Per m id tempus & Angeli Sacerdoti assident &c. At that tyme the Angells draw neare vnto the Pryest , and the whole order of the heauenly Powers causeth greate voyces , and the place neare vnto the Al●●r is full of q●ears of Angells ( in illius honorem , qui in●molatur ) by reason of the honour of hym , who is theare 〈…〉 d or offered vp ; which thing we may fully beleiue , ( vel extanto illi sacrificio , quod iunc peragitur ) in regard of so great a sacrifice then performed Gregory Nyssene : Dominus n praeoccupans impetum iudeorum &c. Our Lord preuenting the violence of the Iewes , being both Priest and Lambe , made hymselfe a sacrifice . But thou demandest of me when this did happen ? Euen then , when he gaue to his disciples his body to eate , and his bloud to drink . Optatus Miliuitanus thus discourseth : Quid est tam sacrilegum , quam altaria ●ei , in quibus aliquando nos obtulistis , frangere , radre , & 〈…〉 e ? in quïbus vot a Populi , & membra Christi partata s●ni &c What is so sacrilegious , as to breake , or scrape , or to remoue and take away the Alt●●s of God ? vpon which your selfs somtymes haue offered ; in the which the vowes of the People , and the members of Christ are borne . And further the said Father : Quid * est altari nisi sides corporis & sanguints Christi ? What is the Altar , but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ ? S. Ambrose : Etsi p nunc Christus non videatur offerre : ipse tamen ●ffertur in terris , cum corpus eius offertur . And againe : Cum q Sacrisicamus , Christus est presens , Christus immolatur : When we do sacrifize , Christ is present , Christ is sacrifized or immolated . Ephrem : Quid r scrutaris inscrutabilia &c : Why dos● thou search into things , not to be searched after &c. Be thou faythfull and innocent , and participate thou of the immaculate body of thy Lord , with a most full fayth : being assured , that thou dost eate the whole Lambe . Cyprian : Caena s disposita inter Sacramentales epu●as &c. The supper being prepared , the auncient and new Institutions did meete together among the Sacramentall 〈◊〉 eats ; And the Lambe , which auncient Tradition did set vpon the table , being cons●med , the Maister doth giue to his Disciples an inconsumption meate . Tertulian t and Dionisius u make frequent mention of Altars , and consequently of Sacrifice : To conclude this passage ( as auoyding prolexity ) Eyppolitus Martyr introduceth Christ speaking to Bishops and Pryests in these words : u Venite Pontifices & Sacerdotes , qui praeciosum corpus & sanguinem meum quo●die immolastis : Come hither , you● h●●fe Pryests and other Pryests , who haue dayly immoluted and offered vp my precious body and bloud . Now ( M. Vice Chancelour ) in regard of the perspic●ity of thes sentences of the former Fathers , and of diuers others such authorityes of the said and other ●athers of the Primatiue Church ( heare through br 〈…〉 y prete●nitted ) It is the lesse wonder , that your owne learned Protestants do ingenuously confesse the truth of those Fathers iudgments hearin . For ( to omit , that the * Centurists do particularly charge S. Ambrose , with this very phraze : Massam 〈…〉 ere , vsed by vs Pryests at this very day ) do wee not fine Calumn himselfe thus to acknoledge of them in generall ? x Veteres illos video &c. I do see , that those auncient Fathers did wrest the memory of the Lords supper otherwyse , then was agreeing to the institution of the Lord. Since the Fathers supper did beare the show and resemblance of a renewed Oblation &c they imitating more nearely the 〈◊〉 maner of sacrificing , then either Christ did ordayne , or the nature of the Gospell would suffer . And hereupon it is , that Caluin in an other place , thus chargeth the Fathers : y The Fathers did adulterate the supper of the Lord , by adding of Sacrifice vnto it . Neither can theese words of Caluin be restrayned to those Fathers only , who liued either in the midest , or towards the end of the Primatiue Church : First because they are deliuered ( without exception ) of the Fathers in generall ; Secondly , by reason that other learned Protestants do charge the Fathers ( some of them liuing immediatly after the Apostles ; others 〈…〉 g euen in the dayes of the Apostles ) with the said doctrine of sacrifice . Thus ( consorting hearto ) we find Sebastianus Francus ( an eminent Protestant ) to vse theese words : z Statim post Apostolos , omnia inuersa sunt &c. Presently after the Apostles departure , all things were inuerted &c. Et caena Domini in sacrificium transf●rmata est , and the supper of the Lord was changed into a sacrifice . But Hospinian ( that famous Protestant ) useth higher in tyme , thus confessing : a I am tum primo illo seculo , viuentibus adhuc Apostolts &c. Even in the very first age ( the Apostles yet liuing ) the deuill labored to seduce Men more about this Sacrament ( meaning , touching the ●athers supposed adding of sacrifice to the Sacrament of the Eucharist ) Then about Baptisme , withdrawing Men from the first former thereof . Thus farre of the Fathers cleare sentences , and of the learned Protestants confessing no lesse , touching the doctrine of Sacrifice . VICEC-HANCELOVR . It l●tle preiudizeth vs [ Michaas ] who professe the Ghospell though the Fathers did teach the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse . For seing it is granted , ( both by vs and you Papists ) that diuers Fathers erred in other paticular poynts , why might they not alyke erre in the doctrine of the Sacrifice ? And seing we are not obliged to embrace their other acknowledged Errours ; why should we be forced to entertaine this their errour . MICHAEAS O [ M. Vice-Chancelour , ] the difference is great , and subiect euen to a vulgar iudgment . For we grant with you , that some particular Fathers did e 〈…〉 certaine poynts ; yet were those their errours presently condemned and written against , by other Ortodoxall Fathers . Thus for exemple , did Austin , Ierome , and Epiphanius wryte against Origen , teaching that the Deuills were at the last day to be saued ; against Tertullian , denying second Mariadges ; against Cyprian , mantayning Rebaptization . Now heare wee grant , that such particular Fathers might and did errein such particular poynts . But the Case 〈…〉 otherwyse , When many of the cheife Pastours and Father 〈…〉 seuerall Ages of the Primatiue Church do concurrently teach a poynt of doctrine , as an Article of fayth ; And that they are not contradicted by any other of the Fathers , for their mantayning of the said doctrine ; And in this sort is the former doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse , taught without any opposition at all , not only by the former alledged Fathers , but by many others ( or rather all othors ) for breuiuy heare omitted . Now in this Case [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] we Catholicks do hould , that such their doctryne so ioyntly by the Fathers taught ( without any contradiction ) is most agreable to Gods word . For seing the Fathers of the Primatiue Church , were in those dayes the cheife Pastours of Christs Church ; Yf they should ioyntly ●rre● in fayth , then would it follow , that the whole Visible Church of God should erre : an assertion most repugnant to the promisse of our Sauiour : c Super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam ; Et portae Inferi non praualebant aduersus eam ) and to that honerable title giuen to the Church by the Apostle styling it : d columna & firmamentum veritatis . Now what reuerence and respect we are to giue to the Primatiue Church , and how we are to conceaue of the authority of it , I will ( for the closure of this passage ) referre you [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] to the sentences of your own Brethreh , being most learned and remarkable Protestants ; & from whose iudgment therefore herein , you cannot without great branch of modesty decline . First then we find Kempnitius thus to aduance the authority of the Primatiue Church : We e doubt not , but that the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles & Apostolicall Men , not only the text of the Scripture ; but also the right and natiue sense thereof . The confession of Bohemia thus magnifyeth the same : The f auncient Church is the true and best Mistres of Posterity ; and going before , leadeth vs the way . Finally D. Iewell is no lesse sparing in his prayses heereof , saying : g The Primatiue Church , which was vnder the Apostles and Martyrs , hath e 〈…〉 r a been accounted the purest of all others without exception . Such transcendency of speeches ( you see ) your owne more sober and learned Brethren are not afrayd to ascrybe , to the Fathers of those primatiue tymes . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Michaas , I grant , you haue spoken fully in defence of your owne state , and of the seuerall offices thereof , practized by you Priests . And though I will not say like to Agrippa : ( h ) A little you haue persuaded me , to become a Catholicke ; yet I must ingenuously acknowledge , I neuer heard a cause of this Nature , with stronger & better arguments defended ; Yet for the more perfect balan●●g and weighing the force of your authorityes ( my selfe not being conuersant in the written Monuments of the auncient Fathers ) I must remit this poynt , to the more mature disquisition of our learned Deuins . MICHAEAS . Though your Lordship will not apply to your selfe , the fore-said words of Agrippa ; yet I will make bould to reply to you ( such is my charitable wishing of your chiefest good ) in the phraze of S. Paul to Agrippa : I i wish to God , both in little & much , that your L. were such as I am , except this my wat of liberty . But my worthy Lord. Here now begmneth the Tragedy of the disconsolate and mournefull state of Priests and Catholicks in this Country . You haue heard [ my L. ] of the Antiquity of Priesthood ; of the like antiquity of the Sacrament of Confession and Pennance ; and lsstly of the antiquity of the most holy sacrifice of the Masse . And yet notwithstanding all this , it is decreed ( as your L. well knowes ) by the pennall lawes of this Country , that Priesthood shal be Treason ; the releiuing of any one such Priest , death to the Releiuer ; Confession of our sinns to a Priest , and absolution of them , reputed to be in the Penitent a renouncing of his Loyalty ; and the hearing of Masse , attended on with a great fine of siluer . And thus by these means , euery good Priest and Catholicke are ( at the first sight ) become Statute traytours . And indeed such is the case heere , that neither Priest nor Catholicke can ( with safety of conscience ) giue any yeelding obedience and satisfaction to the Magistrate , touching those lawes ; since here not to offend , were to offend : k Obedire oportet Dee magis , quam hominibus . And touching my selfe , and other Priests in particular ; your L. is to take notice , that ( not speaking of our Blessed Sauiour , who was the first Priest , nor of his Apostles , succeeding him therein ) most of the auncient Fathers were Priests , enioying the same Priesthood , practizing the same function in hearing of Confessions , absoluing the Penitents , & saying of Masse , which the meanest Priest of England at this day doth . Therefore your Lordship may truly suppose . That before you at this present , stand arraigned ( only for being Priests , & exercizing that their function ) S. Austin , S. Ambrose , S. Ierome , S Cyprian , S. Athanasius , S. Chrysostome , S. Ignatius , and many more of those primatiue blessed Doctours . What I am , they were : I stand but here , as their Image ; and they are personated in me . Neither can you impleade or condemne me , but that your sentence must ( through my sides ) wound them : so indis●oluble an vnion there is betweene their stares & myne ; no other difference betwene vs , but difference of tymes . But my good Lord. To passe on further to the despicable & detected state of Lay Catholicks ( a theame not vnseasonable at these tymes ) I will not insist in particularizing the pennall statuts decreed agaynst them . Neuerthelesle my tongue ( vnder your L. licence ) can hardly pretermit one point in silence . Among then so many Calamityes and vexations ( wherewith on eich syde they stand plunged ) Not any one pressure is more insufferable to them , or more opprob●●ous in the eares of strangers ( who are ready to trumpet forth the same , to the irreparable dishonour of this noble Nation ; otherwise famous throughout all Christendome ) Then to obserue the houses of Catholicks , to lye open to the search of the Common & base Pusu●uants : Who vnder colour of looking for a Priest , do enter their houses at most vnseasonable tymes , euen by force : And there opening their Trunks & Chests : perusing their Euidences of their Estats : taking the Maysters of the houses , bound in great sommes of money , for their after appearance in Courts of Iustice : and violently breaking downe , what may seeme to withstand their present furye ; do by strong hand , cary away any gold , siluer , Iewells , Plate , or any other portable thing of worth ; And all this vnder the pretext of them , being forfeyted through Recusancy ; And the least resistance agaynst these men here made , is punished as an Act of Disloyalty . Neither are any English Catholicks ( the Nobility excepted ) free from these Indignityes ; the dead pittylesse law herein promiscuously taking hold of all without difference . Now my Honorable Lord , Is it not a thing deseruing astonishment & amazement , to see in a most noble Country ( where the Ghospell , which forbiddeth all Rapine , is presumed to be truly preached ) that men free & not borne Bondslaues , should thus in body and state ( only for feare of offending God , and desire of sauing their soules ) lye prostrate , to the depradations & robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men ? who make show at least ( though wrongfully ) to warrant all these their pillages , by force of the statute Law ; though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law : l Si est dolor , sicut dolor horum ? And if it fortune , that any Priest be taken , or Recusants do appeare ; then is the Pryest assured , and the Catholicks in danger , to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison ; there to remayne ( the Priest sometymes in fettars ) so long , as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate ; His Maiesty , who is most proue to mercy , pitty , and commiseration , being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings . But My Lord. How base so euer the Priests & Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes ; yet no doubt their state is most gratefull ( through this their imprisonment ) in the sight of God , and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations ; who in regard of the others endurance , may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests & Catholicks , that sentence of a most auncient Father : * Carcer habet tenebras , sed lumen estis ipsi ; habet vincula , sed vos soluti Deo estis ; triste illic expirat , sed vos odor estis suauitatis . LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE . Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings ( Michaeas . ) whereof you speake ( if any such be ) the Law chastizeth , and the Offendours are punishable ; neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them . Yet heare ( Michaeas ) you are to remember , that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong , and Cruelty , with Iniustice , The tymes haue bene ( I meane , in the reigne of Queene Marie ) When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods , but euen death itselfe . And therefore there appeareth lesse reason , why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions : Since in so doing , you are lyke to those Men , who perpe●rate impietyes , yet expostulate of Wrong . MICHAEAS . Indeede ( my Lord ) I grant , that this is the vulgar recrimination , often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants , for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others ; yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes ( myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation , and to the affayres of those dayes ) Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you ( my honerable Lord ) if I vnfould the reason , why such actions in that Queens tyme , may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment , then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth , and since . The reason is this . In Q. Mar●es tyme , the Professours of any Religion , different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion , were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes , made by most auncient Popes & Emperours ; they not then hauing any forknowledg , that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes , then any other erroneous fayth . And this they did , in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and ●oulden , as Innouations , and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth . Now that Protestācy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith , ( as well as any other sect ) appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants ; who teach expressly , that for theese foureteene , or fyfteene hundred yeeres , the Protestāt fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of , till Luthers dayes . I will heare content myselfe ( for greater breuity ) with the authorityes of two or three Protestants . Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to cōfesse hereof ? For m many hundred yeres , our Church was not visible to the World ; an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth . And doth not Sebastianus Francus ( the Protestant ) confesse the same in theese words ? n For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away , presently after the Apostles departure ; and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres , the Church hath not beene externall and Visible . In lyke sort D. Fulke , speaking of the Protestant Church , doth he not thus wryte ? * The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes : A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe , thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith : o Christum anobis primo vulga●um audemus gloriari ; We dare boast , that Christ was first preached by vs. Thus then we see , that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne , as an Innouation in fayth and religion , neuer afore that tyme dreamed of . But now the case is farre otherwise , touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks , for professing of their fayth : since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only , decreed not past some threescore yeres since , by the authority of a Woman Prince , against a religion which ( by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment ) hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres ; and indeed so many hundred yeres , as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible ; And therefore those stat●●s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion , as against an Innouation ; but as against the ( till then ) only and sole Religion , professed by all the Christia●s , through out the whole world . To this end we find M. Napper ( a learned Protestant ) thus acknowledging p Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian & Papisticall reigne began , reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand , two hundred , & sixty yeres . And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein , the q Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne , charge both hym , and euery age and Century since , till Luthers dayes , with the Profession of our present Roman Religion . Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity , betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary , and Q. Elizabeth . Since in the former Queens tyme , the Lawes , wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion , were instituted many hundred yeres since : In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne ; which is yet in the memory of eich Man , being but of reasonable greate yeres . Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall 1 ●ouncells ( to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed ) secunded otherwise by the secular authority of 2 Emperours , and particularly of ( 〈◊〉 ) Valentinian and Marcian : Theese were first inuented by a Woman , and a Parlament of Lay Persons : the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion . Breifly , by the former Decrees a Religion , confessed by the cheife Professours of it , to be neuer heard of , at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together ( and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health ) is interdicted and prohibited : By theese later , a Religion ( confesse●ly by it greatest Enemyes ) practized vniuersally throughout all Christendome , the space of the aforesaid foureteene hundred yeres and by the learneder sort of Protestants graunted to be sufficient to Saluation is punished with losse of Goods and 〈◊〉 , in p 〈…〉 sonment to the Professours of it , and death to the Priests and 〈…〉 ers of them : r Quantum dist at Orius ab Occas● ? And heare I cannot omit to rehearse , how the said Queene Elizabeth , among other her lyke pious and charitable deeds ( that so theare might a sutablenes in her Actions ) was not afrayd ( contrary to the law of God , contrary to the law of Nation , contrary to her owne solemne vowe and promise afore giuen in that behalfe , contrary to the pitifull flexure of her owne Sex ; and finally contrary to all Nature , Honour , and Religion ) to detayne by force , to imprison , to be●cade , her owne nearest kinswoman and immediate Successour ; A Princes , a Catholicke Queene of incompatable excellencyes and vertues ; Mother ( and therein the other Q. greater atrocitye ) to the late deceased Kinge of famous Memory , and Grandmother to his Maiesty ; that now is . — s Quis talia faud● Myrmidonum , Dolopumue , aut ●uri milles Vlyssis , temperet a lacrimis ? Since heare this most worthy Princes descent was her only fault ; her byrth , her cryme ; And thus did nearest in bloud occasiō the effusion of most innocent bloud , and proximitie in Nature produce this barbarus Act , euen loathed in Nature . But doth your Lordship thinke , that the other Q. then height of state and fastigious Dignity , could be a Sanctuary ( without finall repentance ) for such her immanitie ? o no. t Potentes potenter &c. But I will conceale , what followeth . L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . That most deplotable Act ( Michaeas ) by you now mentioned , was rather to be ascrybed ( perh●pps ) to certaine of the sayd Queens Councellours of state in those dayes , then to the Queene herselfe . But since she was a Princes of greate parts and perfections , I could wish , that ( as free from ill reproach ) she now being deade ( through of neuer dying memory ) might rest in Honour , who gouerned with Honour . VICE-CHANCELOVR . my L. Iudge . Michaeas is come hither , not to declame thus at large , or to make excursions of longe discourse , ( is hitherto he hath bene permitted ) but to suffer condigne punishment for his former Misdemeanours : The tyme is almost spent , and therefore I would entreate your Lordship , speedely to proceed to sentence against hym . MICHAEAS . Most Excellent Iudge . ô let not my gray heyres become discolored with any imaginary Crymes ; nor suffer my ruinous and decayed bones to be attended to their graue , with any iniust punishment ; and therefore , * In virtute tua iudica me . Yf I desearne euill , let me haue my due recompence : Yf I be faultles , I ought to be assoyled : It is the law , & my owne demerits ( not this Mans viperous tongue ) that must make me , euill . LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE . I will descend to your sentence [ Michaeas ] And first , seing I well obsearue , that greate and vnaccustoined Examples of Iustice must euer in the eye of the multitude , be presumed to haue some what of Wrong , at least of Rigour ; therefore for the better auoyding of such an aspertion ; I will call to mynd of what particular offences you heare rest accused ; and will passe my euen & impartiall iudgment of them ; not respecting , how they are amplyfied in words , but what they desearue ( ail collaterall respects considered ) in themselfs : S 〈…〉 ce one and the same Action ( the circumstances being v●rie● is with thē also varied . You arr heare then Michaeas arraigned ( as farre as my memory may seaiue to suggest ; and if I do forget any thing , I hope your charitable friend , M. Vice-Chancelour , wil be my Remembrancer ) of three seuerall Offences . First , of diuulging and mantayning Positions of Disloyalty of the subiect , agaiust his Prince . Secondly , of spreading short Treatises in the Vniuersity , contayning diuers poynts of your owne Romish Religion : Thirdly and lastly , of being a Priest , and exercizing your Priestly function within this Realme . Touching the first , I can find no prouffs against you , but only M. Vice-Chancelour bare & naked assertion ; to the which I haue lesse reason to giue so farre credit , as to ru●ish you for the same ; not only , because you do as peremptorily deny it , as he did confidently auerre it ; but also in that you made a voluntary and earnest protestation ( in the name of your selfe , & all other Priests and Catholicks in England ) of due allegeance to his Maiesty : so whereas M. Vice Chancelour did thearein speake words , you did speake matter . Besids I should hould it no small ouersight , to chastize you publykely for that presumed fault ( though most weakely proued ) with the which ( if your formerrelations be therein true ) our owne Brethren do stand ( in a farre higher degree and measure ( chargeable . Touching your Pryesthood and exercizing of it in our Country ( the greate antiquity whereof , if you haue truly discoursed of it , hath party awakened my Spirits ) thoughe you be much blame worthy in so doing ; Yet I cannot but confesse , that our Satuts made in that busines , haue particular reference to those Pryests only , which are borne in our Country , and not to Aliens or strangers , as you giue your selfe out to be : And therefore our Lawes thearein cānot take any full hould of you . That third fault then it is , whereunto you lye more dangerously subiect ; Which is , touching the diuulging of your Treatises , and persuading others to your owne Religion . The which , as it is prohibited by our Lawes , for euery vrgent reasons ( as begetting turbulency in our setled and quyet State ) so the offendours thearein stand highly punishable . Neuerthelesse [ Michaeas ] since in the whole procedure of your Arraignment , you haue showed greate temperance in your deportment , and loyalty to our Soueraigne ; by the which we must coniecture the integrity and candour of your Mynde ( for though God do iudge the words by the hart ; yet Man must iudge the hart by the words ) since Old age , a Schollar , and a Stranger ( euen in all Countryes ) desearue speciall commiseration and pittye . Finally , since he , who through any great offence committed , is dead in the Law , if after the rigour therof be to him dispensed , is become the Chyld of Mearcy , enioying ( as it were ) a second Byrth ; in which kynd of dispencing with rigour , the Highest cheifly glorieth : u Suauis est Dominus , & miserationes eius super omnia opera eius . Therefore my sentence shal be against you in the most gentill māner ( yet with due consideration of all circumstances ) And it shal be this . You shall continue in this Nation , as long as your selfe shall thinke good , enioying your full liberty of body ; so that hereafter you forbeare all persuading of others to your owne Religion , and do perseuer in your former obedience to his Maiesty , you shall at the next Act or Commencment at Oxford , be ready there publykly ( in the eye of that Vniuersity ) to defend your owne doctrine , mantayned in these your written Treatises ; at what tyme M. Vice-Chancelour heere ( as being a Professed Deuine ) shal be in those disput● , your cheifest opponent and Antagonist . And if any of our Doctours shall by writing impugne your said discourses , you shall giue your faithfull promisse , to reply thereto . And lastly you shall pray for the well-fare of his Maiesty ; vnder whose happy and clement gouerment , your former Transgressions are so mildly chastized . VICE-CHANCELOVR . My Lord. I willingly accept of the Disputation ; Where I doubt not , but to lay open at full the superstition of that Man of sinne . But what ? Must in the meane tyme , Mich●as ( a member of Antichrist ) be freed from imprisonment , and passe thus vnpunished ? Must the Whore of Babylon be entertayned among vs ( in her followers ) no worse , then a chast and inte●erate Virgin ? Shall the words spoken in the Dragons voyce , be so preuayling , as to enchant the eares of the faythfull with her pleasing ( yet poysenous ) musicke ? Breifly , shall Heresy , Superstition , and Idolatry ( the worst of all euill ) endeauour among vs ( and that in our Vniuersity ) to take place in the Soules of Christians , with all impunitie , and as exempt from controule ? Yf so ; then come ( O Lord of heauen ) hasten thy approach ; Ouerrunne the earth with an irresistable prosternation of all Creatures : and reduce all things of their last Period and dissolution : for now it seemes , the tyme is , that 1 Gog and Magog ( the forces 2 of Antichrist ) are let loose , to ceaze vpon the faythfull ( without any gainsaying or opposition ) and to beget in mans soule , a giddy dissipation of all his intellectuall powers . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour : x Proijcis ampullas , & sesquipedalia verba . You mouth it ouer loudly , and vse very turgent and swelling words , agaynst vs poore distressed Priests & Catholicks : Whos 's shyeld , in the meane tyme is Patience : whose armour , our Confidence in God : and whose recrimination , rests in words of myldnes and charity : y Maledicimur , & benedicimus : blasphemamur , & obsecramus . But my very good Lord. To turne my speeches vnto you : Touching this your sentence ( how innocent soeuer I am ) I do vndergoe it with all humblenes of mynd , and without the least reluctation : for I haue red : * Non iudices contra iudicem . And I embrace it the more willingly , since I hope , that by this meanes , the radiant and most shyning Truth of the Catholicke Doctryne in the former discussed Poynts , will in the fight of so noble and worthy an Auditory ( as the famous Vniuersity of Oxford is ) more easily dispell the myst of all contrary Nouelis 〈…〉 e. Touching my Loyall duty to his Maiesty , my prayer is , ( & this I speake , not in a Dialogizing and feigned manner : but plainly , sincerely , and seriously , in the sight of God and his Angells ) God pres 〈…〉 ue King Charles and his Royall Queene , with a prosperous and blessed Domination and gouerment ouer this Nation : Grant to them the happynes , to branch themselues forth into many dis●ente and Progenyes , from generation to generation : And finally vouchs 〈…〉 fe ( most mercyfull God ) that the greatnes of this their temporall 〈…〉 ity may serue as a Type , or ●dumbration , to figure out their greater eternall Beautitude in the world to come . And thus with bended knee , and hart prostiated in all du 〈…〉 full humility , and with all remonstrance of thankefulnes , for this your ●l 〈…〉 ency and myldnes of Iudgment and sentence , I take my last fare well with your good Lordship . VICE-CHANCELOVR . My Lord , must your former iudgment passe vnaltered ? and must it not be accompained with any chastizement at all ? L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE . M. Vice-Chancelour . Content your selfe with my former sentence : It shall stand : z an oculus ●uus nequam est , quia ego bonus sum ? I hope , you will haue aduantage enough against him , in your future disputation : and it is more honour for you , to haue the Victory ouer his Cause , then ouer his Person . And indeed , it is inhumanity to depresse and waigh downe a poore old Man and a stranger , with multiplicity of miseryes : your selfe is a Schollar : and therefore you are the ●ore to commiserate him , being a Schollar . And so with these my last words , both of you may depart from this barre , at your owne pleasure . VICE C-HANCELOVR . My Lord. Since such is your resolution , I must rest satisfyed therewith : and so I take my humble leaue of your Lordship . As for you [ Michaeas . ] I will not take any formall farewell with you : because I hope according to my L. sentence deliuered , I shall meete with you in our Vniuersitie this next Commencement : at what tyme , I will anatomize and dissect that Wh 〈…〉 re if Bab 〈…〉 lon , and strike her in her Mayster vey●e : and will ( to your irreperable disgrace ) display the falshood and absurdities of all your former dispersed Popish doctryres ; when your Auditour shall easily perceaue , that you in your former wrytings , did much pertake of the byrd , that owed the wing , from which you borrowed your penne : And so till then , I bid you : A 〈…〉 eu . MICHAEAS . M. Vice-Chancelour . I do contemne these your Lucian and scoffing vaunts ; vnworthy to proceede from the mouth of a graue and learned Man. At the tyme appoynted , I meane to be present in your Vniuersity : where I trust through the ayde of him , whose cause I am then to mantayne , to make good & iustify all my former Catholicke doctrynes . Touching your malignant demeanour ( for I can tearme it no better ( agaynst me , throughout the whole Processe of this cauillous accusation ; know you , that as all Christians in generall , so Pryests and Catholickes more peculiarly ( of which number I am one ) are bound to requyte good for euill ; imitating therein our Lord ; who , Cum a malediceretur , non maledicebat : cum pateretur , non comm●nebatur . Therefore in b charitate Dei , & patientia Christi ; I freely forgiue you : and will affoard you my dayly Prayers for your Conuersion , and sauing of your Soule . And with this [ M. Vice-Chancelour ] vntill the tyme set downe of our future disputation . I leaue you . FINIS . GOD SAVE THE KING . THE CONCLVSION to the Academicks of both the Vniuersities . LEARNED and worthy Academicks Now Michaeas ( the Conuerted law ) hath acted his last Scene ; And new he heare pulleth off his visard , vnder which in the former Dialogues he masked , and taketh his last farewell with you in the playne and naturall Dialect of an 〈…〉 Pryest , the Authour of the sayd Dialogues . You haue heare perused the points discussed . It hath in the former Dialogues ( I hope irrefra●ably ( bene proued , that since the Apostles dayes euen to Luthers reuolt , Our Cathelicke fayth without chan●e , hath euen bene professed ; the Protestāts fayth hath neuer bene professed What demonstration more choaking ? You also haue seene , with what disaduantage diuers of your Professours ( in regard of the most iust retorting of it vpon themself● ) haue in greate wast and profusion of words , wrongfully & promis●uously charged all Catholicks with the hatefull Cryme of Disloyaltye . Lastly , heare hath bene laid open before you , ( besids some 〈◊〉 discourses of certain Catholicke doctrines ) the venerable Antiquitie of Priesthood ; the lyke antiquity of the Sacerdotal 〈…〉 h 〈…〉 tye of remitting of sinns in the Sacrament of Confession ; and of celebrating the most reuerend and incruent Sacrifice of the Masse : subiects against which , many Protestants so bitterly 〈…〉 both with tongue and penne . Now if Gods 〈◊〉 W●●t , partly deliuered in a propheticall spirit , and partly by our Sauiours 〈◊〉 and Apostles , touching the former poynts . Yf the vninterrupted practize of Gods Church , answearable to those diuine Oracles . Yf the learned Monuments of the Primatiue Fathers in the Churches Infancy , contesting ( or rather , deposing ) the same . Yf the Ecclesiasticall Historyes recording the euen●s , sorting to all the former pro●ffs and authorityes . Finally , if your owne Brethrens free Confessions in their wrytings to their owne irreperable preiudice ) warranting the same , cannot induce many of you , to beleiue the truth of the Articles aboue discussed ; then can I but dispaire of your bettering by perusing the former disputes ; and can but cōmiserate your irremediable states in the words of the Prophet , spoken to Israell : a Insanabilis ●ract 〈…〉 a , pessima p●●ga tua . but if you be such , as I haue fi●ured out to my selfe : Men professing Candor and ingenuitie ; thirsting after your owne Saluation ; desirous to embrace the Truth , once found out ; and ▪ chornin● any lon●er to liue and implicit and blynd assent ( without further 〈◊〉 and search ) to your grand Maysters Theorems ; then I am in good hope , that these my Labours may wunne some ground vpon your iudgments ; and that you will make good in yourself that sentēce of our Lord and Sauiour : b Iustificata est sapientia a fil 〈…〉 suis . I will speake playnly vnto you , because I affect you in true Christian Charity and pittie it is , that such-transcendent Spirits should for euer perish . You are created to enjoy Eternitye : Spurne there at those temporary illaqueations ; whearwith the soule i accustomed to be detayned from her cheifest Good. You are ( through the force of Christs Passion 〈…〉 borne Cohey●es to the Kin●dome of God : Why then will you longer seede with the Prodicall Sonne , vpon the husks of wordly deli●hts and pleasures ? say eich of you rather , with an auncient Father : d Mihi ●amulo Create is , murd 〈…〉 us si non tamen Deus mundi ; Et igo Mundo , non tamen Deo mundi . Pray with in ●●slant and feruerous eiaculations of spirit ( by which meanes , he will no dowbt , of new become present to you , who at all tymes is * present ) that his Diuine Maiesty would vouchsafe to remoue from your eyes ( as he did from the corporal eyes of the e Apostle ) the scales of partiality and preiudice in matters of fayth : the most dangerous rocke of the soules eternall naufrage . Do not still perseuer in vp ●raidin● the Catholicks , with Superstition , Idolatrie Antichristianisme relyinge on humane inuentions , and disualewing of the most precious sufferings of our 〈◊〉 no. These are but our Aduersaryes impostures and Calumnyes , forged to ensware the ignorant . For we all most willingly acknowledg , that the bloudy wounds of a sinfull soule are cured , only by the bloudy passaues of Christ his Passion : thus we teach and beleiue , that bloud heare stancheth bloud and Death ( through ouerthrow of death ) raise Men from death : f Mors ●ortua tunc est : in ligno quando mortua vita fuit . But to returne more particularly to the former Dialogues . I do probably pre●age , that perhaps some one or other of your learned Professours will vndertake to answeare theese my Wrytings . Therefore let me premonish that man cheifly of three Things . First , that whereas theare are in the three former discourses , almost a thousand Testimonies of all sorts of authorities , produced ( some immediatly , and others by necessary inferrence , prouing the Catholicks Poynts aboue treated of ) That therefore he would not ( forbearing in policy to answeare the authorities ) flee a new to the state of the question ( being allready acknowledged on all sides ) and to other extrauagancyes of discours ; and all , to with draw ( by such subtill transitions ) his Reader from the poynt issuable ; which is , whether the former Con●rouer●ed Questions do receaue their full prousse , from my alledged testimonies , or no 〈◊〉 Secondly , that whereas the greatest part of the aboue alledged authorities , are taken from the protestants Confessions and acknowledgments , ( they mainly thearby wounding their owne Religion ) That the Replyar for the auoyding of the force of their authorities , would not seeke to oppose other Protestants denying that , which they confesse ; since this Kynd of euading●s most weake ( as is intimated allready in the second Dialogue ) in that the Protestants alledged by me , are the most remarkable Protestants , that euer did wryte , and do confesse to their owne preiudice , and against the 〈◊〉 ; which they neuer would do , but that the euidency of the Truth enforceth them thear to . Whereas thus others ( which perhaps the Replyar may pro 〈…〉 ce ) are Men of meaner ranke , and speake in their owne behalfe ; and therefore as compacted of impudency and boldnes , their ton●ues and pe 〈…〉 ns stand at all tymes ready charged , to speake and wryte by affirming of chings ( thou 〈…〉 neuer so false ) for the supporting of their owne Cause . Thirdly and lastly , that in answearing to the testimonyes and Confessious , he would take them in order , as they lye , and not omit any ; as otherwyse hoping , that is regard of the ●●ltitude of the testimonyes the sluggish yauning Reader would easely swalow such ouersights of Omisions . For heare I aduertize the Replyar a forehand : That presently vpon the first comming out of his Answeare , I will make a short Cathalogue of all the testimonyes and Confessions omitted by hym ( if any such he ) shewing to what end the sayd Testimonyes were particularly produced ; And will cause this Cathalogue within few dayes after , atleast few weeks ( for I will not stay for months ) to be printed and d 〈…〉 , for the present s 〈…〉 of the Readers thirst , till further oportunity be geuen for confuting of his answeare at large ▪ And thus I dowbt not , but the Sunne of the Replyars same end worth , which may seeme perhaps so gloriously to ryse at the first appearance of his most learned answeare ( forsooth ) within th 〈…〉 tyme after ( if any of the former premonished ●lei●hts and collusions be vsed thearein ) wil be forced to set in a Cloud of his owne disgrace and disreputation . Neither let that Man think , that the s 〈…〉 of his , Booke with greeke sentences , or the hayling in of certaine mysapplyed and g 〈…〉 beaded Apotheges of some one or other old and outworne Philosoph●● ( an Idiome peculiar to most Protestant Wryters ) must carye the ma●ter : But it must be a 〈…〉 , and sincere coa●s of answearing , which at this tyme can satisfy . But now ( Cel 〈…〉 Academicks ) taking my last leaue of you all I will heare cease , but will neuer cease , to power out my dayly prayers to the most Blessed and v●deuided , for your encrease of all vertues ; but particularly for true and orthodoxall fayth ; that ●o ( you being gratefull in the si●ht of the three diuine Persons ) God the Father , would vouchsafe you the Power , Christ his Mearcy , and the Holy-G 〈…〉 rection and spirit , for the 〈…〉 your soules with so 〈…〉 able a ●ewell : g Cut veritas comp . 〈◊〉 si●● 〈…〉 cognitus , 〈…〉 Christo ●cui Cr●●us exploratus , ●ine Spiritu Sancto ? cui Spiritus , ●anctu ▪ accomoda●us , sine si●ei Sacramento ? Laus Deo , & Beate Virgini Maria. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A18933-e630 * Rom. 1. & 15. & 16. Act. 28. Notes for div A18933-e880 * Nazianz . in carmine de vita sua . a Esay . 60. b a dye or any foursquared thing : c 2. cor 3. d Dan. 3. e Caluin is charged with Sodomy by the publike records of the Citty of Noyon in Frāce , yet extant ; And by Conradus Slussenberg ( a Protestāt ) in Theol. Caluin . printed 1594. l. 2. fol. 72. Beza is charged with the same cryme , by the foresaid Slussenberg , vbi supra , and l. 1. fo . 93. By Titilmannus Heshutius ( a Pretestant ) in his booke entituled : Verae & sanae confessionis . And the same is cōfessed of Beza by D. Mortō , ( though most falsly excused ) in his Apolog. Catholica , part . 1. l 2. c. 21. f Math. 7. g Prouerb . 27. h Iac. 1. Notes for div A18933-e2390 a Psalm . 83. b Exod. 3. c Act. 24. d Act. 22. e 1. Cor. 10. f Ephis . 6. g Act. 4. h Hebr. 9. i Philip. 2. * Tertul. k Ephis . 4. c Math. 18. m Tertul. n Maeth . 18. o Deutro . 4. p 1. Timoth 3. q Mat. 12. r At Dauid Georg Professour at Basil . Hamelinanus &c. s D. Whit. so saith cōtra Camp. Rat. 8. t 2. Timo. 3. u Psal . 18. x Apocal. vlt. y Ioan. 3. z 2. Petr. 2. a Malach. 3. b Rom. 1. c Rom. ibid. d Rom. 16. e Rom. 1. f 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . 13. g Galat 6. h D. Whita . thus saith . cont . Camp. Rat. 7 i D. Whita . vb supra . k Rom. 15. l D. Whit. cont . Camp. Rat. 7. m D. Whit. vseth these very words L. cont . Cāp . Rat. 7. saying : Haec sunt Ecclesiae vestrae insignia , Superstitio , Infidelitas , Antichristus , Epicurus . n Psalm . 68. et Ioan. 2. o D. Whit. cont . Bellar. L. de Eccles . coutrouers . 2. q. 5. c. 14. saith : efficax est Aduersariorū ipsorū contra ipsos testimonium &c. et quidē fateor veritatē a suis inimici● Testimoniis extorquere posse . p cont . Donat . post coll . c. 24. q Bell. thus saith verbal ly in l. 4. de Eccles . c. 5 de Not. Eccles . Nota secūda . r D. Fulk . in his Coful . of Purgat . p. 374. s D. Whit. co●t . a Bell. l. de Eccles . where he spoketh of certaine Apostol . Churches , & perticulerly of the Church of Rome . t In his Confutat . of Purgatory pag. 372. u In his Reply to D. Ha●ding pag. 246. x 〈…〉 it . l. 4. c. 2. sect . 3. y Retentiues pag. 85. z Fp. ad . Pom 〈…〉 p. ●7 . ad . Damas . a L. 3. aduer . Haeres . c. 3. b Tom. 7. in Psal . Cent. par●e Do 〈…〉 2. Ep. 165. et Lib. ae vtilit . Credena● . c. 17. c Aduer Haeres . Paulo pos 〈…〉 init . d De obi● . frac● . e So Doct. whit stileth D. Clarke in L. con . Camp. Rat. 8. meaning theirby his Cem●●les et consocius in Doctrina . f D. Hum●●y in Iesuitism . part . 2. Rat. 5. Pag. 5. et Pag. 627 g Al-Which places following of the Cen ●rists . thus charging Gregory are to be founde in their sixt Century after the first Editiō ther of between Col 369. and Col. 432. h In his ep●tom . Hist . Eccles . Cent. 6. ●ag 289. i D. Whit. Lib. de Eccle. cent . Bella● . pag. 144. k D , whit . vbi supra p. 339. 1. l Cent. 3. c. 4. col 3. m Cent 4 c. 4. col . 295. n In his Confutation of Purgatory p. 362. et 303. et 393. o Epist . d● abrogand & omnibus statu●is Ecclesiast . p Cent. 4. col . 558. 2. q Cent. 3. col . 94. r Cent. 3. cap 84. s Cent. 3. col . 85. t D. Fulke , In hi● āswer to a Counterfeyt Catholick p. 36 u In his Retentiue , pag. 106. x M. Georg Gifford In his demonstratiō that Brownists are ●●ll Dona●●s●● p. 38. 4. y In his Confutation of Purgatory . p. 353. z In his examen part . 3. p. 110 a Act. b against the Rhemish . Test . 2. Thess . 2. c D. Fulke in Rhemish Testament . in 2. Petr. Cap. 1. d Cent. 3. Col 84. e Cent. 3. col . 83. f Cent. 3. col . 75. g Cent 3. c. 4. col . 83. ( 5. ) h Cent. 2. c. 10. col . 221. i Cent. 2. pag. 56. k Abraham S●ulte●us in his medulla Theolog. ca Patrum pag. 379. ( 6. ) l In Galat. cap. 4. m Cent. 3. col . 265. n D. Humf. In ●esuct 〈…〉 Part. 2. pag 530. o So sayth D. Whit. 〈…〉 de Antichristo cont . Sāderū pag. 35. p D. whit . cont . Duraeu l. 7. p. 48. q D. Whit. cont . Camp. Rat. 5. r D. Whit. cont . Bellar. pag. 37. s So faith Tertullian . l. de Anima . c. 3. t S. Augnstine , Contrae Donatist . c. 24. u Ephes . 4. x Against the Remish Testāment in Ephes . 4. y In his answeare to a Coūterfeite Catholicke . pag. 11. z D. Whit. Speaking of the preaching of the Word &c. stileth thē : Essentiales notae Ecclesiae Cont. Duraeū . l. 3. p. 260. a D. Whit. Saith : si adest Ecclesiam cōstituit , tollitsiauferatur Cont. Duraeū l. 3. p. 249. b Esay c. 62. c Lib. de Haeresib . Haeris . 88. 89. et Haeres . 692. d Cent. 6. Col. 312. e In his Catalogue testium veritatis . f In epito● . Historiae Eccles . g So Eugenius 4. is noted by the Councell of Basill ; Benedictus 3. By the Councell of Constance . Gregory the 7. By Benno . &c. h Li. 4. Ep. 34. ci 36. i In his Epi. vniuersis Episcopis . k As Kekermannus the Protestāt witneseth in systē Theolog. pag. 68. m Haers . 53. n In Epist . ad Michaelem Episcop . Constātinop . 〈◊〉 . 5. o Cent. 11 c. 8. ( ● ) Haeres . 75. p The booke entituled : The Relicks of Rome , writen by Tho. Beacon . The Anatomy of the Masse , by Anthony de Adamo , printed . 1556. Hospiniā hist Sacrament . l. 2. c. 4. 5. 6. 7. printed 1591. besides diuers others . q Beza Cōfess . general . ●7 . Sect. 12. r So saith D. Whit. in his booke cō● . Bellarm. pag. 37. s So is Melāct●on alleadged by M. Haruey in Theolog. discourse pag. 102. t In his Libri psalm . quinque psal . 22. fol. 146. 147. u Act. Mō . of An. 1576 pag. 539. x vpō the Reuelations , in C. 20. y In his Treatise concerning Antichrist . pag 110. y vpō the Apocalyps serm . 16. pag 198. and in his preface to the Apocalyps . z In his answere to a Couterf●yte Catholicke . p. 36. a In his Synops . p. 160. b D. Whitakers de Ecclesia co●ra Bella●m . controuers . 2. quaest . 4. p. 141. Thus writeth : D cunus Gregorium Magnum fuisse v 〈…〉 mum verū et p●um ill us Ecclesiae Eps●op●● &c. q 〈…〉 m secuti sunt , fuerunt veri Antichrist &c. Et quia certum aliquod tempus a nobis quaer●ni et pestulant , hoc tempus illis design●mus . c vpon the Reuela●●os , p. 66. d So saith M. Hookerin his Ecclesiasticall po●cy . e In Epist . de abrogadis in vniuersum omnibꝰ siatu t is Ecclesiast . * D. Whit. cont . Camp. Rat. 5. saith : An mihi erit dicta singula , quae quisquā protulit aliquādo praestare aut defendere ? f In Epist . Pauli . Coloss . et Thessal p. 246. g In his Prognosticin . finis Mundi . pag. 74. h c. 7. * God is more ancient , then the Deuil , & therfore truth more anciēt thē falshood . i Iohn . 2. k Act. 15 l Aduers . haeres . m Epitem . Hast . Cent. 1. l. 3. c. 1. p. 78. o In his answere to certaine assertions , tēding to mātayne the Churche of Rome p. 35 p In his Treatise of the Church l. 2. c. 9. q In his Apology , vnderthe title of querulous , motions . r Lenaeus l. 2. c. 20. Athanas . s●rm-2 . contra Arium . Ierom. Cont. Lucif . in fine . s hom . 33. in Act. Apost . t Pacianus epist . ad Simphronianum . u D. Whit. contra Camp Rat. 5. x Of the Church . l. 2. c. 9. pag. 58. y Hierom. 35. z Numb . 6. a Antiquitat . Iudaic. l. 18. c. 2. b De vita contemplat . c In his Britan . pag. 40. d In his Britania . p. 157. e Annexed to Holinshead his greate Chronicle , volum . 1. p. 23 f In his booke against Heskins , Sand. p. 561 g In his pageant of Popes . h In his soueraigne remedy against Sch●m● p. 24 i In his pageant of Popes . k Against the Rhemish Testament . in 2. cor . 12. l Act. Mon. printed , 1576. p. 463. m In Iesuitism . par . 2. 〈◊〉 3. p. 304. n Beda hist . 2. c. 2. o In his great Chronic. of the last edition volū . l. 5. c. 21. pag. 102. p Act. Mō . printed 1576 pag. 120. q Beda l. 2. c. 2. r Volum . 1. p. 103 s In his Catalogue of the Bishops p. 6. t Printed anno . 1606. l. 3. c. 13. p. 133. u In Iesuitisin . part . 2. Rat. 5. pag. 5. & 627. x In the Alphabetical table of the sixt Century after the first Edition therof , at the word : Gregory . y Epitom . histor . Eccles . cent . 6. pag. 289. z D. ●hit . Cont. Camp. Rat. 10. a D. Whit. vbi supra . b Math. 27. c Gal. 2. d Act. Mō . printed . 1576. pag. 120. e Lib. 2. c. 2. f In his Cōfutation of Purgatory , p. 335. g So saith D. hi● . cont . Duraeum , lib. 7. pag. 480. h In Prouerb . 13. where he so saith in dutcz , as is here ●nglished . i Luther Tom. 7. in Epist . ad Wophangū . fol. 505. k In Apolo . ad Pāmach . cap. 3. l contra Vigilant . cap. 1. m Haeres . 59 n In Num. homil . 23. o In E●am . Concil . Trident . p. 50. & 62. p Concil . Carth. 2. Can. 2. q Can. 3. r This is acknowledged by Socrates lib. 1. c. 8. by Sozom . l. 1 c. 22. by the Centurists , cent . 4. c. 9. and by M. D. Fulke against the Rhemish Testament in Math. 8. s D. Whit. contra Duraeum . l. 7. p. 480 t Lib. 2. a. achab . c. 2. u In. l. Zoar. in c. 18. Gen. x De Verb. Apost . Serm. 34 y Agust . in Encheri● . c. 110. z Against the Rhemish Testament . in 1. Cor. 3. a Math. 10. b In his answere to a counterfait Catholicke . p. 44 c In his cōfutation of Purgatory , p. 2. vid. 303. et 393. d Iustit 〈◊〉 . c. 5. sect 10. f So saith D. Whit. cont Duraeutin . l. 7. p. 480. g In his answere to a Cöterfait Catholicke . p. 36. h D. Whit. cont . Camp. Rat. 4. i Cent. c. 4. col . 64. l. 2. k histor . l. 5. c. 24. l D. Whit. instanceth in these three Popes . l. 7. Cōl . Durae um pag. 480. m Tertul. n In his answere to a cōterfeyt● tho . licke p. 37. o Lib. 4 Instit . cap. 7 Sect. 9. p In his Commö places in English part . 4. p. 39 q So sayth D. Whit●kcr cen●ra Duraeuml . p. 48 q adners Haeres . uersus finem r In 1. Timoth . s Act. 1. t Cod. de Summa Trinitate leg . 4. u de Ingratis c. 2. x de Persecut . Wandal . y Epist . 48. ad Anastasiū a D. 〈…〉 hit cont . Camp. Rat. 6. thus writeth : G 〈…〉 g. Magnus parū ne tuu Pôificē perstringit , quado quisquis se Vniuersale Episcopū vocat , cū Antichristi praecursore procul dubio appellat ? b D. Whit. l. de Eccles . cont Bollar . p. 336. c Lib. 7. epist 69 ad Euseb . saying : Si vnus est vutuersalis , restat , vt uos Episeopi non sitis . d Lib. 4 Epist . ad Eulogium : Si vnus Patriarcha vniuersalis dicitur , Patria●charnm n●men ●aeteris der ogatūr . e Lib. of the Church pag. 62. f So write the C●turists of Gregory Cent. 6. col . 462. g Cent. 6. col . 427. h vbi suprà col . 428. i Cent. 6. col . 425. k In their Treatise entituled English . Puritanisme printed anno 190 〈◊〉 . p. 16. l Penry in his supplication to the high Court or Parlament m so saith D. whitakers coutra Du●●um l. 7. p. 490. o Ini Meditat . c. 9. p Epict. 91. ad Theodorū foro Iulii Episcop . q In questio breuioribꝰ in terogat . 288 r Cent. 3. c. 6. col . 127. s De Arcanis Catholicae . Veritatis l. 10. c. 3. t Lens● . 2. 3. &c. & ●5 . 6. &c. u D. Whit. cont . Duraeum p. 480. sayth : qni Transubstantiatione primus excogitauit , is suit Innocentius tertius . in Lateranenst Concilio . x Tract 2● in Ioani●em . y Lib. 6. contra Parmenianum . z Crispinus in his booke of the state of the Church pag. 345. a Act. & Mon. print . 1576 p. 1121 b In I●suitis● . part . 2. Rat. 5. p. 628. c Cent. 4. c. 10 Col. 985. d Centurist . Cent. 4. c. 4. Co● . 496. e In Margarit . Theol. pag. 256. f We finde the testimonies of these Rabbins here produced , to be alled●ed by Galatinus de , Arcanis Catholicae Veritatis l. 1. c. 3. Se Rab by Iudas in c. 24. Exo d. and Rabby Simeon in l. entituled : Reuelatio se●retorum . g D. Whit. Cont. Duraeū . l. 7. p. 480. Saith qui primus docuit corpus Christi ●esualiter tractari , frangi et dentil● 〈◊〉 ri , suit Nicola●s sec●dus . h Chrysist . in . 1. Cor. Hom. 24. i Chrys . in Mat. hom . 83 k Chrysost . in Ioan hem . 45. l In consut . disputāt . Ioānis Gr●naei ; p. 214 215. m So saith D. Whit. cont . Duraeum l. 〈◊〉 . c. 480. n Act. 15. o Serm. 8. p Rat. 10. Edm. Campiani . Rat. 7. q D. Whit. So saith , Cont. Camp. in Rat. 7. r So sayth D. Whit. contra Duraeis p. 277. s D. Whit. contra Cāp . Rat. 7. Thus saith of this point De tempore non est sacile respondere ; neque id necessariū est vt temporū momenta prodantur t So D. Whitak . contra duraeum pag. 277. u Bucanus In loc com . pag. 466. x M. Powl In his consideration of the Popists supplication Pag. 43. y D. Whitakers for proose of the change of the faith of Rome . alledgeth this similitude saying : Pili non subito omnes ea●escūt nec quicquam repentē habet suam maturitatē . Contra Cāp Rat. 7. z D Whit contra Camp. Rat. 7. thus saith in Ecclesia Romana accidit , quëad modum in magno aedificio videmus euenire &c. quod ruinas aliquo loco in cipit agere &c. Ita Romana Ecclesia leporum successione &c. a D. Whit. cont . Camp. saith : ●utarc●●a scripturarum defend mu● Ra● . 1. b D. Whit. cont . Camp. Rat. 10. c D. Whit. cont . Comp. Rat. 2. d D. Whit. vbi suprà Rat. 9. e Galat. c. 1 f D. ●hit . cont . Duraeū . l. 7. p. 478. saith : nobis sufficit &c. ex Pontificioru dogmati● et scripturarū collatione , discrimen et dissimultudine agnoscere Histo● 〈◊〉 liberum relixquimus , scribere qui●velint . g D. Whit. cont . Camp. Rat. 5. h D. Whit. haleth in this sentēce , in Rat. 〈◊〉 . cont . Camp. i Contra Maximinū Arianum E p c p. l. 1. k Ep st . ad Paulinum . l De praes●r . aduers . Haeres . see c. 19. 30. 35. 36. m Vincent . aduers . Haeres . n In his Eccles . policy Sect. 14. p. 86. o Luther in titul . de libris veteris et ncui Testamenti ; as also in his Prolego●a . to diuers of the books of the new Testament . p See seauē of the first chapters of the second part of that book ; all of them being spent in displaying the Protestants condenation of all orginals , & Trāslations of Scripture . q Math. 16 r In Psab●contra parté Donali s In c. 16 Math. t In Epist . ad Quintu . u Recorded by al the Euangelists . x Theoph. in hunc locū . y Chrysosti● hunc locū . z Cyril Hierosol . cat . 4. mystag . Cyril . Alexād . epist ad Calosiriū . a Lib. de sacramētis c. 5. b Ioan. 20. c Epist . ad Heliodorum d Lib. de sacerdotio . f Ioan. 3. g In hunc locum . h In hunc locum . i L b. de spiritu Sancto c. 11. k In c. 16. Ezech. l L b. 3. ad Quirinum . m Iac. c. 2. n L. de fide ct oper . c. 14. ( e ) Lib. 20. de Ciuilate Dei o Thes . c. 2. p L. De side cap. 17. q De spirit . sauct . c. 29. r In hunc locum l D. Whit. De sacra script . p. 521. saith : Nam quādo scriptura non habetviuā vocem , quā aud●amus ; vtēdum est quibus●lam mediis , quibus inuestigamus quissit ses●s quae meas scripturari● . 2 So saith D. Whit. l. de Eccles . cōtrauers . 2. quaest . 2. p. 221. 3 D. Reynolds In his Conference p. 83. 84. 92. 98. 4 D. Whit. cotra Bellar. de Eccles . cōtrauers . 2. quaesi . 2. pag. 221. thus writeth . qualia illa media sunt , tale ipsa interpretatione esse necesse est : At media interpretadi leca obscura sunt , incerta , dubia , et ambigua ; Ergo fieri non potest , quin et ipsa interpretat . o. incerta sit ; si incerta ; tunc esse potest falsa . s Psal . 18. t Dan. 2. u Esay 2. x Esay 60. y Cap. 15. 16. 17. z D. whit . contra Camprat . 3. thus saithe de loco Ecclesiastici pa●ùm laboro ; nec Arbitrii libertatē credam , quātumuis hic centies affirmet : Coram hominibus esse vitam , et mortem . a Cap. 4. b Cap. 30. c D. Whit l. 9. contra Duraeum p. 818. thus saith of this poynt : Tuū in hac causa Petrum Galatinum minimè prostctò desideramus , nec Haebreorum testimoniis illis indigemus . e 1. Ioan. 2. f Rom. 8. et Galat. 4. ( 〈◊〉 ) Luk. 12. h Gal 3. et 2. Col. 2. i Math. et Mark. 5. ( g ) Ioan. 3. k 1 Cor. 2. l 1. Cor. 2. m 1. Pet. 2. n 1. Petr. 2. vt supra . o Ioan. 3. p In his his●oria Sacramentariae part . altera . q Cap. 1. r 2. Cor. 4. s D. whit . cōtra Camp. rat . 3. caleth the Church of Rome thus : Ecclesia Romae est meretrix Babi●anica ; palmes a ●●a v 〈…〉 res●ctus ; speluca latro●um , via ampla ad interitū perducens ; regnum infe●or●● ; Corpus Antichristi ; E●rori●●●lluu es ; maier ●●gna scortationum ; Ecclesia Impiorum , à qua excedere Christianum quemqne ●portel ; quam Christus miserè perdet aliqud lo , eique sceleru omnium meritas penas imponet . Thus D. Whit. t 3. Reg. 3. u Paraip . 34. x Esay 2. Micheas 4. y Cy●● l. de V●●a●● Ecclesiae posi 〈◊〉 ilium . z Tocò● in greeke si●nifieth Vsury , coming of the verb Tictò parto ; because siluer ( put to vsury ) b●etteth siluer . a 1. Cor. 4. b Zach. 14. c Psalm . 54 d D. R●ynl . did write against Card. Bellurmine in the Controuersie of Images e Math. 16. f Ieremy 5. h Ioan. 6. ( b ) Vi●g . A●nea● . Notes for div A18933-e30650 a Tertulliā de Pudicitia b Act. 13. c Lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae c. 12. d Lib. 2. et 6. contra Pa 〈…〉 . e Lib. 2 contra Petilia●● rat . 51. et 61. f Haeres . c. 33. g In ●raesat . dialogorum contra Pelagianos . h Haeres . cap. 46. i Lib. contra Vigilanti●● c. 2. k Lib. 1. et 2. contra Iouinianum . l Lib. de haeres . c. 82. m Lib. 2. cotra Pelagianum . n In Re scripto ad M●l●ui●●●●● Concilium post 〈◊〉 . o Hae●● 88. p Lib. 26. cap. 27. q Aduers . haeres . post med . r L. 4. ●●er . 〈…〉 . s In explanat . symboli ad Damasū . t De temporeserm . 91 u Lib 2. cap. 19. x Dialog . 3. y Lib. 3. de Haereti● . fabulis . z Lib. 6. histor . c. 33. a Lut● . In his sermōs en●lished . p. 147. et 276. &c. b Lib. de Haeres . c. 54. c Vincent . Lyrinensis cōtra haeres . d 1. Ioan ▪ 2. Notes for div A18933-e32620 a Osiander Cet . 16. l. 2. c. 67. p. 423. Hoc tempore , Ecclesiae in Anglia ad formā Cal 〈…〉 sticam , opera Petri Martyris Florentini , & Bernardi Ochini Senensis reforma●ae sunt . And Symlerus ( a Protestāt ) in his booke de vita & obit . Petri Martyris fol. 13. Petrus Martyr ab Archiepiscopo Cantuariensi de voluntate Regis vocatus est ; itaque Argentinâ in Angliam discessit , comitante eum Bernardo Ochino , qui & ipse ab eodem Archiepiscopo vocatus est , b Bale in praesat . in Act. Rom. Pontif. printed 1558 sayth of Ochinus and Peter Martyr : Faelix Anglia dum haec paria habuit ; misera dum amisit . c So sayth Caluin of Ochinus in these words : quos Itali Bernardino Ochi●o & Petro Vermilio opponent ? l. de scandalis ( extant ) in his tract . Theolog. printed 1597. pag. 111. d Con●adus Slussenberge in Theolog. Caluin . l. 1. Art. 2 calleth Neuserus , He 〈…〉 ergensis Ecclesiae primarius Pastor . e 1. Petri . 1. f Se Polidor Virgil , and Leyland his Annotations vpon Polidor Virgil . * Vide authorem Genealogiae principum Cambrorū , Brilannicorum & Saxonicorum . As also Cadnaeus de aduent● lulij Caesaris . g 2. Cor. 6. ( h ) Ioan. 11. k Esay . 60. l Esay . 49. m Psalm . n Esay . 54. See here of the contents of the English Bible vpō that chapter . o In hūc locum . p ●ranct . 1. in epist . Ioannis . q See the marginall notes of the English bibles of anno . 1576. In Esay . 2. r Tract . 2. in epist in Ioan. s Against the Rhemish Test . in Eph. 4. t Contra Duraeum l. 3. p. 249. u In Synops . Papisin . p. 71. x Contra Duraeum l. 3. p. 260. y Against Heskins , Sanders &c p. 569. a Fulke vbisupra p. 536. In his answere to a contersayte Catholicke p. 11. c Propositions and principles disputed in the vniuer●ily of Geneua p. 845. d C. 72. e Iacob in his reasons t●ken out of Gods word p. 2● . f In his Synops . p. 54. g Ierem. 33. h Esay . 66. i Daniel . 2. k Esay . ●0 . l Reg. 〈◊〉 . m Daniel . 9. n 2. Th●ss . 2. o 12. p Hebr● . 4● . 8. q In corpore doctrinae p. 530. r In his soueraigne remedy p. 17. s In 24. M●chae● . t Vbi Chrysost . u Epist . 88. ad Esichium . x l. 20. de ciuitat . Deu● . 19. y Bullenlēger in his preface to his Sermōs vpon the Apocalyps ; As also the Protestant Sc●lio in his booke of the second comming of Christ . fol. 21. z C. 4. a Against the Rhemish Testament , in 2. Thessal , 2. b Vbi supra . c Vpon the Apocal. sol . 200. ( d ) In ●a● . analyt . p. 368. e Homil. 30. ●in Math●eum . f L. de vnitate Eccle. g Homil. 4. in cap. 6. Ioan. h Contra faustum Manich. lib. 1. i Contra lit Precil . 〈◊〉 . 2. c. 32. k Tract . 1. in epist . Ioannis . l Tract . 2. in epist . Ioannis . m Peter Martyr in Com. place in English . part . 2. pag. 594. saith : The Iewes , though they be kept in so great aduersity &c. yet they hould stil their Religion n Se hereof Caelius Secundus Curio l. de amplit . regn● Dei. l. 1. p. 65. and the Century : writers in the 4. chapter of euery Century . p lib. ●de simplicit . Praelat . q Epist . 1. ad Damasum de nomine Hypostasis . r l. 4. de Baptism . c. 2. s Instit● 4. 1. sect . 4. t in concil . Theol. part . 2. u in loc . com . edit . 1561. c. de Ecclesia . x Melan. vbi supra . y in his Treatise of freewill . p. z in his booke against Hosius p. 210. a in his booke of the visible Church . b in his booke of Ecclesiast . policy . p. 126. c in his Epist . annexed to his Commō . places printed in English . p. 153. d l. 1. of the Church . c. 10. p. 19. e vbi supra . p. 21. Iesuitis in part . 2. c. 3. g In his answere to a Popish Pamphlet . p. 11. * D. Fulkde successione Eccles . p. 89. h in Epist . Euchar . i loc . tit . de Iudaeis . col . 390. k In his suruey c. 〈◊〉 l Lib. 4. c. 14. m Orat. de S. Basil . n Vir 〈…〉 c sol . 156. d sol . 132. e fol. 132. f fol. 128. h 116. i fol. 117. k so . 1●9 . l ibidem m fo . 132. n fol. 115. o fol. 117. p fol. 4. q fol. 138 & 139. r fol. 14● . s fol. 142. t fol. 14● ¶ Luther epist . ad Argentinenses . ¶ Touching the sentences alledged in this passage out of Luthers writings , the Reader is to obserue percisly , the editions of his bookes here quored ; seeing in some later editions , diuers of his said testimonyes are for very shame wholy omitted & left out . x Luther in purgat . quorūdam . A●ticul . & in episi . ad Georgium spalatinū . y Art. 30. z Conclus . 15. & in disput . Lipsica cum Echio . a In 1. part . operum formula cātè loquendā cap. de Sanct. cultu● b In resp . ad art . Colloq . Montis● . part . alt . in prefat . c Luther in epist . ad ad Bohemos d In his refutation Caeremoniarum Missae , printed Magd●● . 1603. p. 118. e Loc. 7. com . pag. ●●6 . f In loc . ●om . class . 1. c. 37. p. 107. * 〈◊〉 . Cor. ● . g Sorelateth Zwinglius of Luther tom . 2. in respons . ad confut . Lutheri f● 474. h Luth. in encherid . praecum . anni 1543. i Luth. in postill . maiori Basili 〈…〉 apud Heruagium in enarrat . Euang . Dominicae Trinit . k Contra Iacobum Latomum , tom . 2. Wittenberg . latine edit . anno . 1551. l Zwinglius tom . 2. in respons . ad Confess . Lutheri . m In assert . damnat . per Leonem , art . 36. n Luth. deseruo arbitrio c. 32. o Luther in Confess . Maiore in Caena Domini . p Vide Concil . part . 2. q In epist . theologie epist . 60. r Luth. tom . 2. l. de ministris Eccles . institue 〈…〉 lis fol. 368. 369. ●id . l. de abrog . Missa priuata tom . 2. fol. 249. & lib. de captiuit . Babilon . c. de ordine . s These be D. Couelis words in his defence of M. Hooker art . 15. p. 101. t In hist . Sacrament . part . altera fol. 14. u Luth. de seculari potest in tom . 6. german . x Luth. in tom . 7. Wit. tenberg . fol. 327. y Luther praesai . in epist . Iacobi edit . 4. Ienensi . ( z ) Vpon the Apocalyps englished c. 1. serm . 1. fo . 2. a Tom. 3. Wittenberg . in Psal . 45. fol. 423. b In epist . ad Gala● . 1. tom . 5. Wittenb . of anno 1554. fol. 290. c Luth. in tom . 2. Wittēberg In assert . damnat . per Leon● decimum assert . 34. d In ep . ad fratres Inferiori● Germaniae . e Luther vpon the Galat. englished , in c. 2. And see Luther in his Sermons englished fol. 204. f Luther tom . 1. Prop. 3. g In his Sermons englished p. 147. h Luth. ibid. pag. 276. i In his Apol. Cathol . p. 42. k Lib. de Eccles . contra● Bellarm. controuers . 2. quaest . 5. l In his Apolog. of the Church part 4. c 4. m In ep . ann . 36. ad Episc . Hereford . n In theolog . Caluinist . l. 2. fol. 130. o Tract . de Eccles . pag. 145. p Act. mon. pag. 190. q In his Treatise of Antichrist p. 40. r Act. Mon. p. 260. s Fox in Apocalyps c. 11. pag. 290. t In colloquijs Germ. c. de Antichristo . u Act. mon. 230. Art. 1. & 2. ( x ) In epitom . Cent. 15. p. 469. y Act. mon. printed . 1596. pag. 391. z In his booke of the state of the Church pag. 418. a Fox vbi suprà . b In his Annals of England printed 1591. p. 425. c Wicklef in postilla super 15. cap. Marci mētioneth all the seauen sacramēts . And in postilla super 1. Cor. cap. 1. he writeth , as is here set downe . d Wicklef serm . de Assumpt . Mariae . e Wicklef de Eucharist . c. 9. f In his Annals printed 1592. p. 426. g As witnesseth O●iand . Cēt. 15. p. 457. h Cent. 6. 10. 11 &c. p 459. a●t . 43. i In ep . ad Fredericum Miconium . k Act mon. p 96. art . 4. l Epitom . h●st . Cent. 9. 10. 11. a●t . 4. m Tom. 3. c. 7 8. 9. ( n ) Osiander in epitom . hist . Cēt. 9. 10. ●1 . 12. ( o ) M●lancthon . vbi supra p As witnesseth S●ow , vbi supra . q In Chronol . p. 119. r Melancthon . vbi supra . s Act. Mon. p. 95. t Ioan. ● . u Act. Mon. p. 628. x Epist . 244. y In tract . de Eccles . p. 124. z In I●●uitism . part . 2. rat . 3 p. 270. And M. Fox Act. mon. p. 628. a D. Humfrey vbi supra . b Illyricus in catalog . teftium verirat . p. 743. c Illyrecus vbi supra . pag. ibid. d Illyrecus vbi supra . p. 760. e Ibid p. 731. et p. 745. f Ibid. p. 729. g Ibid. p. 735. et 756. h Illyric . ibid p. 734. i Illyric . ibid p. 735. et 755. 1 D. Fulke against the Rhemish Testarnēt in Apoc. 12. 2 D. Abbots in his second partof the defēce &c. printed 1607. p. 55. k In his booke against D. Hill his reasons . p. 57. l De success . Ecclesiast . contra stapletonum . p. 332. m In Cent. 13. l. 1. c. 4. pag. 329. n In his dictionarium historicum , annexed to his thesaurus printed anno . 15-78 . at the word : Albigenses . o In his defence of the Apology . p. 48. p D. Fulke in his Retentiue against Bristow . p. 124. q In his defence of the Apol . p. 48. r Cent. 12. p. 291. s Osiander . Cent. 12. p. 282. and 283. t Hospinian in histor . Sacrament l. 4. p. 361. u Osiander vbi supra . x In his defence of the Apol , vbi supra ( s ) Cent. 9. 10. 11. p. 326. y In ep . dedic . histor . Sacrament . z In his booke of the state of the Church . p. 221. a In his Cronicle p. 473. b in ep . hist . eccles . cent . 8. p. 101. c Lib. 2. hist . Franciae . d Cen. 8. c. 9. col . 570. e In Chronic. p. 474. f Lib. 1. pro Imaginibus . g Instit . l. 1. c. 11. Sect. 14. h Cent. 9. c. 4. col . 212. i In histor . Sacrament . l. 4 p. 317. k L. de Rom. Pontif. l In Chronico - m In Chronico . n In Chronico . o As M. Fox confesseth . Act. Mon. p. 13. p In epist . Oecolampedii et Swinglii . l. 3. p. 710. q Ibidē p 812. r L 3. in Hugone et Roberto . s In his answeare to a Counterfeyte Catholicke . p. 34. t Ioannes de Rupe scissa , and Guilielmus de S. Amore , claymed for Protestants by M. Napper vpon the Reuclat . in c. 20. u Peter blois i● . claymed by M. Gabriel Powel in his considerat . p. 25. x Act. mon. printed 1596. p. 287. y In Chronographia pag. 102. z Cent. 12 p. 181. a Act. mon. printed 1596. p. 358. b Osiander cent . 9. p. 44. c In Iesuitim . part . 2. rat . 3. pag. 326. d In epitom . cent . 8. pag. 58. e By Symon Pauli in method . aliquot . locorum doctrinae . fol. 12. f Act. mon. pag. 41. g See all these & some others , in the Alphabeticall table of Illyricus his Catalogue , re●●ium veritatis . h L. 1. de Rom. Idolat . l. 1. c. 2. act . 3. p. 73. i Erasm . in l. 16. epist . 1● k D. Fyeld in his booke of the Church . l. 3. c. 8. p. 76. l Math. 〈◊〉 Esay 2. m Esay ibidem . n Against the Rhenish Testament in 2. Thessal . 2. o In his answere to M. Reynolds preface p. 34. & 37. p Vpon the Apocalyps p. 200. q In his answere to a Coūterfeyte Catholicks p. 36. Ioan. 2. & Act. 15. s Osiand . inepitom . Cent. 1. l. 3. c. 1. p. 78. thussaith : nota , haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur . t Hebr. 5. u Rom. 10. x Ioan. 10. y So lasciuius , a Protest . relateth of Caluin , in muscouit . et Tartar . religionē . c. 23. z In his conference at Po●si . a Against Stapleton & Martial . c. 2. b Musculus , loc . com . p. 394. Amandus Polanus in part . theolog . l. 1. p. 30● . c Luth. tom . 5. 〈◊〉 . Germ. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . d In his perpetuall gouermēt of the Church c. 9. p. 111. e Against the Rhenish Test . in Apocalyp . 13. f Contra Durae●m l. 9. p. 820. g In his defence of the gouerment pag. 1276. h Propositions & principl●● disputed in Geneua p. 245. i Esay : c 60. k Daniel . 2. l Esay . 60. m In his exposition vpon the Creed , p. 400. n D. Reynolds in his conference with M. Hart. c. 7 diuis , 6. the like doth D. Iewell in his defēce of the Apology . o Contra Duraeū l. 7. p. 469. q In Whitguifts defence , p. 174. r In his Reply , p. 506. s In Cēt. 1. 2. 3. t In Chronographia . u In Chronologia . x Cent. 1. 2. 3. y Act. Mon. in his discourse of the tenn . Persecutions . * Tertul. l. de resurrect . carnis . z 1. Cor. 4. * Tertul. l. de fuga in persecut . * Tertul. l. aduersu● gentes . a Rom. 10. b Lib. 3 of the Church pag 1. c Math. cap. 10. d In his Synops. printed , 1600. pag. 612. 613. 614. e In Cōcil . Theol. pag. 628. f In his discours hereof recited in Melanc●hons former treatise of Concil . Theolog. p. 634 ▪ 635. g Alledged in the foresaid place by Melancthon . h Lib. de vitendis superstitionibus , extant in Caluin . tract . Theolug . &c. p. 584. i Math. 18. k In Iesuitism . part . 2. tract . 2. rat . 3. p. 241. l In his reformed . Cathol . p 328. 329. m Lib. de Eccles . pag. 165. n In ep . Theol. ep . 1. p. 15. o Caluin in l. epist . epist . 104. Osiander in epitom ▪ hist . Cent. 16. part . alt . pag. 1072. p D. Parkins vbi supra . q In epitom . Cent. 16. part . alt . p. 1076. & 1072. * In the first part of the Conuerted Iew. * Lib. aduers . Haereses . r Lib. 3. Eccles . po● p. 130. s In his former sermons , and two questiōs , ser● 3. p. 44● . t M. Bunny in his Treatise of Pacificatiō sect . 18. p. 108. u M. Bunny vbi supra p. 123. x M. Bunny ibidem pag. 119. y M. Bunibidem p. 36. z Vbi supra p. 92. a A●n●d . 〈◊〉 . b Cont. Donatist . post . collat . 〈◊〉 ●4 . c Rom. 〈◊〉 d De rebus grauiss . cōtrouers . pag. 319. ( e ) The Protestant Lasciuius reciteth this saying of Caluin I. de Russor . Muscouit . &c. religione , c. 23. f Against Stopleton , Ma●tial . p. 2. ( g ) In his works printed , 1605. f. 916. h Ama●dus Polanus in part . Theolog . p. 308. Musculus in loc . c●● . p 394. Luther tom . 5. lenae Germ. 〈◊〉 . 491. i In his Apologetic . c. 176. k In his exposition of the Creed . p. 400. l De amplitud . regni Dei. p. 212. m In his answere to a counterfeit Catholicke . p. 16. n Vpon the Reuelation in c. 11. & 12. * M. Brocard vpon ●he Apocalyps . fol. 〈◊〉 . o Vpon the Reuelat . in c. 11. & 12. p In ep . de abrog . in vniuersum omnibus statutis Eccles . q In his answere to a counterfeyte Catholick pag. 33. r Lib. de Antichristo l. 2. c. 〈◊〉 . pag. 25. s In Apologeti●o . t This is performed in the Cōclusion of this Trea●ise . u So saith Ochinus in praefat . suorum Dialogorum . x Math. 3. * Tertul 〈◊〉 gentes . y 1. Timoth . 2. z Hebr. 2. a Ioan. 1. b Ioan. 4. c 1. Ioan. 2. d Ioan. 1. e Rom. 6. * 2. Thess . 3. Apoc. 17 f That Ochinus vpon the not performance of the Prophecyes of the old testament in the Church of Christ , denyed the Trinity , taught Circumcision , and became an absolute Apostata , is witnessed by Zanchius ( the Protestant ) in his booke de tribus elohim , printed , 1594. l 5. c. 9. As also by Cōradus Slussenb . ( a Protestant ) in Theolog. Caluinist . lib. 1. fol. 9. The tytle of which chapter in Sluffenberg . is : respontio ad Ochini blasphemiam . And lastly , the same is auerred by Beza , in Polygam pag. 4. g That Neuserus through the want of the performance of the foresaid Prophecyes , denyed our sauiour Christ , reputed him a seducer , turned Turke , and was circūcized at Constantinople , is witnessed by Osiander ( the Protestant ) Cent. 16. part . 2. pag. 818. in these words : Adam Neuserus , Pastor Heidelbergensis &c. prolapsus est in Turcismum , & Consiantinopole circumcisus . As also by Conradu Slussenberg . in Theolog. Caluin . lib. 1. art . 2. fol. 9. in these words : Adam Neuserus olim Heidelbergensis Ecclesia primarius Pastor , ex Zwinglianis●● per Arianismum ad Mahometismum , progressus est . h Ioan. 1. i Ioan. 1. k Esay . 6. * Malac● . cap. 4. l Act. 4. m See hereof the first part of the Cō●erted ●ew at the beginning . n Bale in prefat . act . Rom pōtific . printed 1558. initio . * Caluin . l. descandalis , ( extant ) iu tract . Theolog . printed , 1597 ▪ pag. 111 ▪ vt supra dicitur . o 2. Io. an . 2. p Osiander cent . 16. part . 2. pag. 647. saith , of Dauid George : Vtebatur publico Vir Dei ministerio Basi●ien●i &c. q See historia Dauidis Georgij printed at Antwerp . 1568 published be the deuines of Basil . r Conradus Slussenberg ▪ in Theolog. Caluin . l 1. art . 2. f. 9. Alemanus Bezae antea fami●iarissim●s & ●irenuꝰ Caluinista , R●ligioni Christianae longum valde dixi● & factus est Apostata & Iudaeus blasphemus s S● writeth Beza in epist . 65. p. 308. t Stancurus de mediatore fol. 38. u Epist . Theol. 81. x In Pa●aenesi . y Lib 1. c● 19 l 3. c. 3. & 8. and in diuers other places thereof . z Lib 1. de Theol. Caluin . a●t . 2. c. 9. a Cent. 16. p. 207. 208. 209. b Lib. de ratione interpretādi 〈◊〉 . 1 p. 62. 63. And Osiander in Cent. 16. who saith : Sebastianus Castaleo vir asprimè doctus &c & dinguarum perit●ssimus c In the Preface of the great Latin Bible , dedicated to King Edward the sixt . d Oslander in epitom . cent . 16. p. 209. reporteth , that Neuserus being turned Turke , and circumcised at Cōstātinople , did write these words to one D. Gerlachius ( a Protestant Preacher , at Tubinga ) from Constantinople . e D. Reynolds in his censura librorū Apocryphorum . tom . alter , in the table of Contents set before , there at the nūbers 161. 175. & 176. defendeth against Bellarm . Ochinus his book writtē against the Masse . f Exod. 3. * Acts. c. 23. g Beza 〈◊〉 . de Polygamia printed 1527. p. 4. saith of this point : Pelygamiam nemo vnqua 〈…〉 callidius vel impu●enti●s defendit , quam impurus ille Apostata Ochinus i● quibusdam D 〈…〉 h Adamus Neuserus Conc 〈…〉 natores in●● Palatinat fiad suam 〈◊〉 dem perd ▪ xi● , & con ●tacta cum Sacerdotibus in Tur c●a amicitia , & dati● atque acceptis vltro citroque literis , Mahometanam religionem in Germania propagare 〈◊〉 ter conat 〈…〉 est . In Colloquio priuato inter Catholicū Pastorem & Baduini Ministrum Coloniae . Anno. 1591. p. 5●● . i Beza in epist . 1. p. 11. calleth Ochinus , Arianorum ●●a●d●s●●nus sautor , Polig●niae 〈◊〉 omniam Christianae religionis dogmatum irrisor . k Beza de polyga●ia , p 4. calleth Ochinus impurus Apostata , as aboue is shewed in the margen● . Notes for div A18933-e55380 a Psal . 4. b D. Fulke in his answere to a Counterfeyte Catholick . p. 27. and in his Reioinder to Bristowes Reply . p. 343. c In his cōsiderations of the Papists reasons p. 105. d Lib. de votis , pag. 476. e In his preface vpon the New Testament , dedicated to the Prince of Condy. f In his defence of the Answere to the Admonition , p. 472. 473. g Melancthon in 1. Cor c. 3. h Tom. 2. Wittenberg . anno 2551. de ●eruo arbitrio . pag. ●34 . i In his exposition of the Creed . p. 307. k Vpon the Reuelations , 〈◊〉 43. l M. Napper , vbi supra . p. 68. m Vbi supra p. 191. n In epist . de abrog . in vniuersum omnibus statut . Ecclesiast . o In his answere to a counterfeyte Catholicke . p. 35. p Lib. de Votis pag. 477. q Pag. 13. r In his treatise of Antichr . l. 2. c. 2. p. ●5 . s Histor . Sacramēt . lib. 1. c. 6. pag. 20. * Michaeas cap. 4. * D. Whitakers saith so . l. cōtra Du●aeum . l. 3. p. 249. Notes for div A18933-e56570 a Pag. 3. b Pag. 17. c Pag. 24. d Psalm . 12. 1. Samu●l . 22. Esay . 1. 5. 6. Ezech. 22. besides others . e Lib. de vn●tat . Eccle● . c. 12. f Math. g 1. Timoth . 3. * Ierome aduers . 〈…〉 uc●erean . i Lib. cōtra Eunomium . k Orationes quinque in theolog . l Lib. de Trinitate . m Catecheses . n Lib. 9. de Trinitate . o In c. 1. ad Timot. p Contra Arian . haeres . 69. s Pag. 100. t Pag. 89. u Pag. 30. x Lib. de Haeres . c. 23. & 46. z Luther epist . ad Bohem. & lib de captiuit . Babylon 〈…〉 de Euchar. 1 Athan. in Apolog. pro fulga . 2 Ierom. lib. contra Pelag. 3 Ierom. lib. contra Vigilant . ( 4 ) Austin . lib. de Haeres . c. 46. * Pag. 52. a Epist . 244. b In tract . de Eccles . p. 124. c Pag. 54. d Pag. 56. e Pag. 56. f Illyr . catal . testium Vetir . tom . 2. printed 1597. pag. 872. ( ) Valla in his Apol. ad Eugenium Papam 4. Pōtif . prope finem . h Pag. 57. & sequentib . i Pag. 58. k Pag. 59. 〈◊〉 ) Pag. 60. m Pag. 69. n Pag. 71. o Pag. 7● . * Pag. 78. l ( r ) Pag. 79. & 80. * Pag. 81. 1 Cant. 24 del Pa●ad . That is : O eternal light of that great man , To whom our Lord did leaue the keyes , which He did carye with wonderfull ioye . 2 Cant. 2. dell Inferno . 3 Cant. 19. dell . Inferno . 4 Cant. 22. del ' Inferno . 5 Lib. 1. Seuilium Epistolarū ad Talanādum Cardinalem . 6 Lib. 1. Inuectiuarum contra Medicum . 7 Pag. 81. * Vide Fox in act . Mon. speaking of this Ioāne● de Rupe scissa . * Pag. 81. t Pag. 82. u Pag. 91. x Epitō . Cent. 12. p. 309. y Cent. 12 col . 1627. and 1638. a Pag 92. b Pag. 93. c Pag. 95. d Pag. 96. e pag. 96. f In his Relation of thestate of Religiō vsed in the Westparts of the World , in the last fol●o , but fiue . g In their booke entituled : Acta Theologorum Wittenbergensoum & Ieremiae Patriarchae Constan●in●p . de Augustana Cōfession &c. Wittenbergae Anno , 1584. ( i ) Pag. 97. ( k ) Pag. 98. 99. 100. 〈◊〉 Pag. 102. m Pag. 103. n Pag. 110. Notes for div A18933-e62630 a Act. 24. The Iewes so called S. Paul in their Accusation . b Math. cap. 5. c Psalm . 57. d Ioan. cap. 4. e Tertul. lib de Pudicit . f Ter●●l . l●b ad Sca 〈…〉 . a 1. Pet. 3. b Romā . cap 13 c vbi supra . d Ibidem . e Ibidem . * Psalm . 137. of Sta●e , * Tertul a Luth. de secular . potest . in tom . 9. German . b Luth. vbi supra . c Luth. sermons englished & printed 1579. p. 97. & tom . Witenberg . f. 327. d Luth. Sermons vt supra . p. 261. e Tom. 1. in explanat . Art. 42. f Swingl . in l. epist . Oecolam . & Swingl . l. 4. epist . Cunhardo Somio &c. Promittendum est Caesart officiū , si modo fidē●obis per 〈◊〉 ▪ illibatam . g Swin 〈…〉 ●b●●upra . h In his true d 〈…〉 rence pa●t 3. pag. 273. i Caluin in Daniel . c. 6. Abdica●t s● pot●●ta●e ●err●●i Principes , du●●ns●rg●nt con●r● Deū ; ●mo i●digni sun● , qui ces●antur in num 〈…〉 h●m●num : P●tius ergo cōspuere oportet in illorum capita , quam illis parere . k In his obedience or Ecclesiasticall Vnion . pag. 60. l in his Suruey of the pretēded discipline . pag. 48 As also in the booke entituled : Dangerous Positions . m D. Succleffe in his answere to a certayne 〈…〉 applicatory pag. 75. n D. Succleffe vbi supra , pag. 98. p In his epist . theolog . epist . 68. q In his Suruey of pretended discipline . pag. 42. r Knox to the Communalty f. 49. & 50. s Knox histor . pag. 343. t Knox hist . p. 371. u Knox to En●lād & Scotlād . fol. 76. x Bucanan . l. de iure regni pag. 13. y Bucanan vbi supra . p. 40. z Bucanan vbi supra pag. 62. a Preached the 〈◊〉 . of No 〈…〉 ber & printed . ●606 . b In h 〈…〉 Suruey of the pretēded holy discipline pag. 48. c D. Bancroft in his dangerous Positions pag. 34. d In his dangerous positions . p. 35. e In his answere to a certaine libel supplicatory . p 192. f D. Bancroft vbi supra pag. 35. g Goodman in his said Booke p. 119. 139. h Goodman p. 63. & 43. i Goodman pag. 144. & 145. k In his dangerous Positions pag. 35. 36. l In his answere to a libel supplicatorie . pag. 71. m In the booke of Obedienc . pag. 25. n Obedience . pag. 110. o Obedience pag. 99. & 103. ( p ) In his dangerous positions . pag. 34. ( q ) The Booke of obedience pag. 99. & 103. m See hereof Holinshed Chron. the last edition volum . 3. pag. 1104. n Act Mon. printed 1596. pag. 1282 and Holinshed ●reat Chronicle volum . 3. pag. 10●3 . Stow in his A●nals pag. 1046. p H●l●n 〈…〉 d great Chronicle in the history of Scotland , the last edition . p. 366. p In his dangerous positions . p. 1● . q D. Bancroft vbi supra . r King Iames in the summe or the cō 〈…〉 nce at Hampton Court. printed 1604. p 81. s In his answere to a certaine 〈…〉 〈…〉 p. 149. t in his Suruey of the pretēded holy discipline pag. 11. u In epitom . cent . 16. p. 941. x Osiand . vbi supra . pag. 801. In defens . tract . de diuers . gradib . minis●tor . c. 2. p. 74. a Of the state of the Church p. 627. b Cent. 16. p. 959. c As Antony fayus witnesseth ( being a Protestāt ) in vita & obitu Bezae . p 45. d Beza in his epistle dedicatory of his new Testament , to the Queen of En●lād printed 1564. e Printed 1607. pag. 593. f vbi supra pag. 610. g vbi supra p. 623. vbi supra , pag. 610. 625. &c. i Cēt. 16. pag. 698. k Osiander vbi supra . p. 804. l vbi supra . m Of the state of the Church pag. 625. n Of the state of the Church p. 509. o Cythreus in Chronico anno 1593 & 1594. p. 75. & 71. p Osiander cent . 16. p. 1115. q Cent. 16 p. 115. r Cent. 16. p. 653. s Luther . loc . com . class 4. c. 30. fol. 55. t Luther . loc . com . class 5. p. 57. u Galuin in epist . ●d Knox epist . 305. pag. 566. * Esay . 19. x See hereof D. Succlif in his answere to a certaine libell supplicatory pag. 80. & H●●inshed in the history of Scotland the last edition p. 433. y Osia●der epitō . cent . 16 p. 735. z In his dangerous positions . pag. 74. a D. Bancroft vbi supra . pag. 137. b vbi supra . c D. Bancroft vbi supra pag. 140. ( d ) In his answere to a certaine libell supplicato . pag. 76. e D. Mort in his Romish position● pag. 51. f Act. 18● These words the Iewes spoke against S. Paul at his Arraignment . Notes for div A18933-e68100 a Ins●it . c. 1. par 〈…〉 . 10. 〈…〉 ela 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 di 〈…〉 verb● p 〈…〉 dic 〈…〉 S 〈…〉 nto 〈…〉 que obj 〈…〉 onem posuimus . b Art. 7 c In his 〈◊〉 of the answere p 81. d Contra Camp. rat . 〈◊〉 . e Lub●ertus ( the Protestāt ) l. 4. de Eccles . cap. 〈◊〉 f Rom. 10 g Instit . l. 4. c. 1. para 〈◊〉 . 5. h Tertul. l. de Pra●●●pt c 21 irenaeu● l. 3. cap. 4. i D. Barow l. de fide & 〈◊〉 ortu p 40. Melanct●● l 〈◊〉 epist . ad Re●●cm An 〈…〉 , p 49. Hocker in Eccle 〈…〉 pol in the pr●face sect . 6. pag. 28. D. Bancroft in his Sermon preached 8. of February anno . 1588. k D. F●eld of the Church in his Epistle Dedicatory . l De militante Eccies . p. ●34 . m Lib. de Eccles . printed 1607 p. 226. ( 〈◊〉 ) Tom. 6. contra epist . fundamenti c. 5 o Kempnit . exam . part . 1. p. 69. Zāchius de Sacra Scriptura p. 61. D. Whita● aduers . S●apelto . num p. ●00 . D. ●ewd in 〈◊〉 defēce of the Apology . p. 201. p In his Common places englished part . l. c. 6. q In his Eccles . policy . sect . 14. lib. 1. p. 86. r Eccles . pol. l. ●2 . sect . 4. p. 102. s vbi supra l. 3. p 146. * Lubbertus , l. de Eccles . printed . 1607. l. 4. c 2. p. 202. u In his reformed Catholick . p. 133. x De Sacra Script . p. 133 y Whitak . de sacra Script . p. 99. & 583. z Vpon the 2. of Kings . c. 22 and 2. Chron. 34. a De ciuit . Dei. l. 18 c. 47 b Lib. 3. cap. 4. c De Sacra Scriptura con●●●u●rs . 1. q. 〈◊〉 . p. 128. d ●n his b●e●fe answere to Iohn Burges pag. 94. e In the abridgmēt of the b●oke ●iuē by the Minister of Lincolne Diocesse to his deceased Maiesty . vide p. 11. 12. 13. &c. f 1. Tim. 2. ( 〈◊〉 ) In his ●●n●e●●●● p 83. 84. 92 98. &c. 〈…〉 Lib. de Sacra Script . p. 521 522. &c. i Lib. de E●cl●● cōtrouer● . 2. quae●●t 4 pag. 221. k Lib. de Sacra Script . cōtrouer● . 1. quaest . 2. p 127. l M. Wutton in his answere to a pop●●bly Pamphlet . pag. 20. D. Barlow in the defence of the Articles of the Protestant Religion . pag. 199. m Galat. 〈◊〉 s Epist . 166. & l. de Vnit Ecclaes . c. 3. u Instit . l. 4. c. 3. sect . 4. x Of the Church l. 2. c. 6. * D. Whtak . contra Camp. rat . 3. p. 44. y Epist . de abrouādis in vniuersum omnibus statut . Ecclesiast . z In his exposition of the Creed p. 400. a Instit . 4 c. 1. sect . 11. b In the Apology of the Church of En●land . part . 4. c. 4 p. 426. c In his Booke of the Church l. 3. c. 6. f. 72. d Epitō . Cent. 16. p. 736. e In his booke against the Anabaptists . f Esay . 60 & 62. Psalm . 102. Ephes 4. besydes many other places . a Sess . 24. Can. 3. b Cap. 2● . c Gene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3● . d Cap. 25. e Math. ●6 . f Homi● 49. in Matheun● . g In Cōment . c. 24. in Mathae●m . h L. 18. Antiquit , cap. 9. a Quaest . 77. b 3. Regum . c. 6. and 7. c Cap. 21. d Cap. 25. e Exod. 31. & 34. Deut●on . 4. 9. 10. f Lib. 6. sto● . citū . g Quaest . 71. in Euod . & epist . 119. cap. 11. a Gre●●ry Nyssen , orat in Theodor. b S. Thomas . in 3. sentent . distinct . ● . c Thus teacheth the Coūcell of Trent . sess . 25. d Exod. 25. e Exod. 12. f Exod. 28. g Esay . 11. h Cap. 3. i 2. Tim. cap. 3. k Philip. 2. If any Authour seeme to say that the same worship is giuen to the Image which to the hrofit vpon eyther he meaneth that nothing is giuen to the Image but all to that which it representeth or that it is the same only in name not in nature or only Analogicè non vniuocè . l Lib. 2. de doctrina Christiana . c. 25. m Serm. 10. in psalm . 118. n In Leitu●●●a . o In vita Paulae . p Quaest . 16. an Antiocum . q Cent. 4. cap. 10. col . 1080. ( n ) In ●ulianum , vt citat Adrianus ad Imperator . r Cent. 10. c. 8. col . 850. s In epitō . Cent. 6. p. 288. t In his pageant of Popes . p. 24. & 27. u on the reuelat . p. 57. x Lib. 7. cōmentar . at anno . Christi . 494. y Cedrenus in cōpend . Histor . z Nicephorus in hist . l. 16. c. 27. a Exam. part . 4. p. 14. & 33. b So doth Beza relate of Luther and Bren●ius in resp . ad Act. Colloq Montisb . part . altera in praefat . pag. 12. c In epitom . colloq . Montisb . pag. 39. d Lib. 7. histor . cap. 14. e In cap. 9. Mathaei . f Lib. 6. histor . cap. 20. a Lib. de ciuitate Dei c. vlt. b Rom. 11. vt saluos facerē aliquos ex illis . c 1. Cor. 9. vt omnes racerē saluos . d Ioh. 10. 14. e Cap. 15. f Toby . 12. Zach. 1. Math. 18. Apoc. 8. g Luc. 20. h Lib. hist . c. 5. i Decura pro mortuis . k Orat. de Sancto Manante . l Orat. 1. in Iulianū . m In vita Gre●orij ueo 〈…〉 ●a●●ens . n Lib. 5. histor . c. 24. o Genes . ●8 . p Cap. 5. q In anno●at . in Iob. Cap. 7. s Cap. 15. t 6. u 5. x 3. y 4. z 13. a Cap. 〈◊〉 . ( 〈◊〉 ) Serm. Euang. de sanctissima Deipara . b Act. 11. c Act. 7. d Act. 6. e Cap. 7. Eccles . Hierarch . f Lib. 5. cōtra Haeres . vltra medium . g Lib. 13 praeparat . Euang. c. 7 i Orat. in 40. Martyres . k Homil. 66. ad Populum . l Orat. in Sanctum Theodorū m In psal . 129. n Lib. de Viduis vltra med . o In epitaph . Paulae . p Tract . 84. in Iohannem . r D. Fulke in his Reioinde● to Bristow . s D. Fulk agaynst the Rhenish Test . in 2. Petr. c. 1. t D. Fulk agaynst the Rhenish Test . vbi supra . u In his defence agaynst the reply of Cart. wright . p. 472. x In his examinat . p. 120. y In purgat . quorūdam articul . z In orat . 1. Chry●ost . de Inuentio & maximo . a Act. mon. p. 1312. b See H●fferenfetus in loc . theol l. 3. stat 4. c Ierome epist . 2 cotra V 〈…〉 l. Gregory . lib. 11. moral . cap. 13. 16. * Gregory vbi supra d Lib. de cura pro mortuis c. 15. e Nazianzene orat . fun . in sororem Gorg. f Luc. 15. ( a ) Lib. 22. de ciuitat . Dei c. 29. a Bellar. de 〈…〉 cat . l. 4. c. 10. b Rom. 9. c Rom. 8. d Sess . 6. c. vl● . * Math. 5. e Math. 20. f v● . Matth. 16. g Rom. 〈◊〉 . h vz. psalm . 65. Luc. 6. 1. Cor 3. Galat . 6. Apocal , vlt. i Math. 25. k Cap. 7. l Hebr. 6. m Apoc. 2. n 2. Thes . 1. 2. Tim. 4. Iacob . 1. x Luc. 10. y 2 Thes . 1. z Sapient . 3. Luc. 20. Apoc. 3. a Epist . ad Rom. b Lib. 4. aduersus Haeres . c. 72. c Lib. de Spirit Sanct. cap. 24. d Homil. 4. de Lazero . e Orat. in Sanct. Baptism . f Orat. 1. de amandis pauperibus . g De vnitat . Eccles . h Lib. 1. de officijs , cap. 15. i Epist . 103. ad Sixtum . k Aduersi Iouinianum prop● finem . l Iesuitism . part . 2. p. 530. m Cent 5. col . 1178. n Cent. 3. col . 265. o In Cōfess . Wittenberg . p Luth. in Galat. cap. 4 the latin word by him need is Iustiliarij q Contra Camp. rat . 5. r In his defence against the reply of Cartwright pag. 472. & 473. s Vpon the Apocalyps ser 87. t In his defence of M. Parkins p. 340. u Pag. 495. & 273. x Lib. 5. eccles . pol. sect . 72. p. ●08 . y In loc ●om de bonis operib . circu medium . z In Margarit . Theolog. p. 48. & 50. a Math. 19. b Lib. de habitu virginum . c In hūclocum . d De sancta virginitat . c. 24. e Math. 19. f De viduis vltra medium . g Lib. cōtra vigilant . h Epist . 89. quaest . 4. i In c. 5. ad Rom. k Lib. de humanitate verbi vltra med . l Lib. de virginit . vlt. med . m Homil. 8. de Penit . n Orat. in Iulian. vltra medium . o De hábitu vir●inum vltra medium . p Lib. de ●●duis q Lib. contra Iouinianum . r Lib. de virginitate Sancta . cap. 30. s Eccles . pol lib. 3. sect . 8. pag. 140. t In his defence of M Hooker art 8. pag. 49 50. 51. 52. u In Sacra 4. Euangel . in Math. c. 19. a 2 Reg. c. 12. b Reg. 〈◊〉 24. c 1. Cor. 1. d 1. Iohn . 〈◊〉 . 2. Math. 16. f Math. 18. Iohn . 20. ( g ) Colo● . 1. h In psal . 61. i Colos . 1. k Cor. 2. Cor. 1. l Row. 9. m Psal . ●21 . n Psalm . 218. o Ezech 18. p Ad Galat 6. q Psalm . 49. r Marc. 9 s Iob 4. t Eccles . 3. u 2. Cor. 2. x Lib. ad Martyr . y Cyprian . epist . 13. 14. 15. & serm . vlt. de Lapsis . z Luggerus epist . de S. Swiberto . apud Suriū . a Thom , in 4. sentent dis . 20. q. 1. art . 3. b Anton. 2. part . histor . tit . 16 , cap. 1. c Abbas Vlperg . in Chronic. d Can. 11. e Can 9. f Can. 2. g Cempnit . in his Examen . Concil . Trident. parr . 1. pag. 74. h 1. Tim. 3. i Kempnitius examen . part . 4. p. 329. a Ioan. 〈◊〉 . b vbi supra . c Luc. 24. d Lib. 3. de consensu . c. 25. e Melan 〈…〉 on Apolog . Cō 〈…〉 . Aug. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de vtraque specie . f Act. 2. g Author operis imperfect in Math. homil . 17. Beda ad c. 20. Act. h Luth. setm . de Fucharist . Caluin . l. 4. instit . par . 17. Kempnit . exam . Cōcil . Tridē● . sess . 21. part . 2. i De captiuit babilon . l. de Eucharist . k Hist . Sacram. part 2. fol. 112. l Cent. epist . theolog . epist . 74p . 25 〈…〉 m Ioan. 6. n Luth. de capt . Babil . c. 1. Swinglius de vera & falsa religione . c. de Eucharist . Caluin Instit . l. 4. c. 17. par . 33. o Math. 26. p Rom. 3. q Math. ●7 . r Austin . l. 5. homil . 26. Cyrill Catech. mystag . 5. Origen homil . 13. in Exodū . s Rom 6. a In prae●●t . 6. Cēt. b Lib. 〈…〉 tra V●●ilantium . c Act. 3. d Can. vlt. e In vita B Antonij . f In psal . 115. g Serm. de Sanctis Inuentio & Maximo . h Serm. 93. de Sanctis Nasa●io & Celso . i Lib. aduers . Vigilantium . k Austin . de Eccles . dogm . c. 73. l In epitom . Cēt. 4. pag. 506. m Cont●a Vigilant 〈…〉 an t med . n De Origine Erroris printed ●●guri , 1539. fol. 67. o Bulenger vbi supra . p Cent. 4. col 457. q Cent. 4. col . 15●9 . r In purgat . quorundam . articul . s Cempnitius exā . part . 4. p. 10. t Cent. 4. col . 457. u Contra Durae um . l. 10. p. ●66 . x Exod. 13. y Reg. 4. cap. 23. z Reg. 4. c. 3 a Act. 5. b Act. 19. c Exod. 12 d Lib. de catechis . rudibus c. 20. e Ezéch . cap. 9. f Lib. aduers . Demetrianū . g In Cōment . Ezechiel . h De Eccles . Hierarch . c. 4. 5. 6. i Lib. 4. epist . 6. k Catech . 4. l De Incarnat . Verbi . m De Spirit . Sancto . c. 37. n Serm. 43. o Epist . ad Demetriadem . p Tract . 18. in loannem ad finem . vide lib. 1. Confess . c. ●1 . q Initio Scorpiaci . r Haeres . 30. s Orat. in Iu●ianum . t In vita Gregorij . Thaumaturgi . u Iu vita Antonij . x In vita Pauli , primi Eraemitae . y Lib. 22. de ciuicare D 〈…〉 z In prime part . altera parte ad Bellarm ▪ Cōtrouers . 5. p. 1415. a Cent. 4. col . 302. b Cent. 4. vbi supra . c Cent. 3. col . 121. d against Heskius , Sanders , p. 657. e D. Fulk vbi supra . ( f ) In Epitom . 326. g Extant in D. Couels breife answere to the said M Burges . h In his answere to M. Burges . i Math. cap. 26. k Cent. 4. col . 1329. l Epitō . Cent. 4. pag. 454. m Hist . l. 6. cap. 29. n Math. 14. Luke 9. o 1. Tim. 4 p Lib. 8. Apost . cō stit . c. 35 q De Eccles . Hierarch . c. de Baptismo . r Catech . 3. s Lib. 1. epist 12. t Lib 4. de Sacram. cap. 5. u Lib. 16. in ●ul●anū c 8. serm . 19 de Sauctis . x Cent. 3. col . 28. & 148. y Cypr. lib. 1. epist . 12. z Lib. de Spirit Sācto . c. 27. a Tract . 11. in Ioannem . b Lib. 1. epist . 12. c Can. 48. d Can. 3. e Can. 36. f Can. 20. g vz. Damasu , epist . de Corepiscopis . Leo epist . 88. ad Episcopos Germaniae & Galliae . h Cent. 3. col . 143. & Cent. 4. col . 865. i In Exā . part . 2. p. 58. k De peccat . merit l. 2. e. 26. l Epist . ad Alipiū & Romanianum inter epist . Augustini . m In vita Hilarionis , post med . n against Heskins , Sanders &c. pag. 377. o In his booke of the Masse . pag. 51. p Can 〈◊〉 . q In Pōtifical . r Lib. 〈◊〉 . epist . 28. s In benedict . Caerei Paschal . t Cap. 30. u Cent. 5. col . 744. x Cent. 4. col . 497. y Can. 6. z Hist . lib. 6. cap. 8. a Contra Vigilant . cap. 3. b In homil . de die Cinerem & Dominica Palmarum . c 3. part . quaes . 87. art . 3. d In 4. S 〈…〉 nt . dist . 15. quae . 2. e Marc. 4. f Haeres . 30. g Lib. 5. cap. 21. h Cap. 19. i In vita cius l. 3. c. 5. k Lib. Dialog . c. 10. In vita Malachiae . m So teacheth D. Whitguift in his defence pag. 89. D. Willet in Synops . p. 382. Cartwright , vbi Whitguift supra . n D. Whit●uift in his defence p. 88. D. Fulke in reuelat . 1. Bullenger in his Decad , englished . Decad. 2. serm . 4. * Act. 2● . a Hebr. 11. * Philip. 2. * Marc. 16. * Math. 12. * Luke . 15. b Rom. 10. c Austia . d 2. Timoth . 4. ( c ) Tertul . aduers . Gentes . f Psalm . 109. g Chrysostome . homil . 35. in Genes . ( h ) Epist . 8. ad Simplicium . i Epist . ad Anastasium . k Epist . 3. ad Symphronianum . l Lib. de ciui● . Dei 20. c. 10. m Lib. 4. c. 20. n Lib. 3. c. 32. o Lib. de viris illustrib . p In epist . ad Smirnenses . q De Eccles . Hierarch . c 5. r In his Cōference with M. Har● . p. 55. s De ciuitat . Dei lib. 8. c. vlt. & l. 22. c. 8. t Lib. 6. de Sacerdotio , & homil . 53. ad populū . u Lib 6. cōtra Parmen●anū . x Cap. 3. Eccles . Hierarch . y Canō . 3. & 4. a Psalm . 81 b Rom. ●3 . d Iohn . 20. e In quaestionib . breu 〈…〉 b. interiogat . 288. f Epist . 88 ad Episcopos Cāpaniae . * Lib. homil . l homil . 41. g Serm. 5 de lapsis . ( h ) Lib. de Penitētia . i Cent. 3. cap 6. col . 127. * Cent. 3. col . 127. k Heb● 13. l Lib. 4. de Trinitate c. 1● . m Lib. 6. de Sacerdotio . n Orat. de resur●e & . ( o ) Lib. 6. cōtra Parmenianū . * Optatus v●● supra . p in psal . 38. q In c. 〈◊〉 . Lucae . r De Natura Dei min 〈…〉 scrutanda cap. 5. s Serm de caena Domini . t Lib. de pae●iten●a . u Cap. 3. Eccles . Hierarch . u Orat. de An●christo . * Cent. 4. c. 4. col . 295. x Lib. 4. Instit c. 18. sect . 12. y In omnibus Pauli Epist . in Hebr. c. 7. z In epist . de a●rogandis in vniuersum omnebus statut . Ecclesiast a Histor . Sacramēt . l. 1. c. 6. p. 20. ( b ) Vide August . in Haeresi 43. & 46. Hieronym . in lib. contra Iouinianū & Vi●ilātium . Vide Epiphanium lib. de Haeresibꝰ . c Math. 16. d 1. Tim. 3. e Examē Concil . Trident. part . 1. p. 74. f In the Harmonyes of Confess . pag. 400. g In his defence of the Apology● . 〈…〉 ) Act. 〈◊〉 . i Act. vbi supra . k Act. 〈◊〉 l Thren● 〈◊〉 * Tertul. ad Martyres . m In his expositiō of the Creed . n In epist . de abrogandis in vniuersum omnibus statut . Ecclesiast * In his answere to a Coūterfeyte Catholick pag. 35 o Luth. epist . ad A● entinens . p In his treatise vpon the Reuelat. p. 68. q See of this point the Centurists , in Cent. 4. & so in euery succ●eding Century . 1 See Concil . Laodicens . can . 31. 32. 33. Concil . Cartha . canon . 16. 2 L. Ariani , c. de Haereticis . L. cuncti Haeret. L. Man●chaei ( 3 ) Valentinian & Marcian decreed obstinate Hereticks to be punished with death of which Law see Concil . Chalcedō . Act. 1. r Psalm 103. s Virg. Aenad . t Sapiēt . cap. 6. vz. potentes potenter tormenta pati●ntur . * Psalm . 〈◊〉 . u Psalm . 144. 1 Ezech. 28. Apoc. 20. 2 Vide August . l. 20. de ciuitate Dei cap. 11. x Horat. y 1. Cor. 4. * Eccles 8. z Math. 20. a 1. Petri . 2. b 2. Thess . 3. Notes for div A18933-e83040 a Ieremy . c. 30. b Math. 〈◊〉 . d Terr . cōtra marcionē . l. 5. * God is in euery thing and place , per essentiam , potentiam , & g●ortam . e Act. 91. f So saith the Catholicke Church , in the office of the Holy Crosse . g Ter● . l. de Anim● . 
A18610	----	The religion of protestants a safe vvay to salvation. Or An ansvver to a booke entitled Mercy and truth, or, charity maintain'd by Catholiques, which pretends to prove the contrary. By William Chillingworth Master of Arts of the University of Oxford Chillingworth, William, 1602-1644. 1638 Approx. 1735 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 225 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A18610 STC 5138 ESTC S107216 99842918 99842918 7615 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A18610) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 7615) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1167:13) The religion of protestants a safe vvay to salvation. Or An ansvver to a booke entitled Mercy and truth, or, charity maintain'd by Catholiques, which pretends to prove the contrary. By William Chillingworth Master of Arts of the University of Oxford Chillingworth, William, 1602-1644. Knott, Edward1582-1656. Mercy and truth. Part 1. [32], 413, [3] p. Printed by Leonard Lichfield, and are to be sold by Iohn Clarke under St Peters Church in Corn-hill [, London], Oxford : Anno salutis M.DC.XXXVIII. [1638] The last leaf is blank. A reply to, and reprinting of part 1 of, "Mercy & truth" by Edward Knott. Also replies to his: A direction to be observed by N.N. if hee meane to proceede in answering the booke intituled Mercy and truth, or charity mainteined by Catholiks &c. A variant of the edition without Clarke's name in the imprint. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Knott, Edward1582-1656. -- Mercy & truth -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Knott, Edward1582-1656. -- Direction to be observed by N.N. if hee meane to proceede in answering the booke intituled Mercy and truth, or charity mainteined by Catholiks &c. -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. 2003-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-07 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2003-07 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE RELIGION OF PROTESTANTS A SAFE VVAY TO SALVATION . OR AN ANSVVER TO A BOOKE ENTITLED MERCY AND TRVTH , Or , Charity maintain'd by Catholiques , Which pretends to prove the Contrary . By WILLIAM CHILLINGWORTH Master of Arts of the Vniversity of OXFORD . Isaac . Casaubon . in Epist. ad Card. Perron . Regis IACOBI nomine scriptâ , Rex arbitratur , rerum absolutè necessariarum ad salutem , non magnum esse numerum . Quare existimat ejus Majest●s , nullam ad ineundam concordiam breviorem viam fore , quàm si diligentèr sepatentur necessaria à non necessariis , & ut de necessariis conveniat , omnis opera insumatur : in non necessariis libertati Christianae locus detur . Simplici●er necessaria Rex appellat , quae vel expresse verbum Dei praecipit credenda faciendave , vel ex verbo Dei necessariâ consequentiâ vetus Ecclesia elicuit . — Si ad decidendas hodiernas Controversias haec distinctio adhiberetur , & jus divinum à positivo sen Ecclesiastico candidè separaretur ; non videtur de iius quae sunt absolutè necessaria , inter pios & moderatos viros , longa aut acris contentio futura . Nam & paucailla sunt , ut modò dicebamus , & fere ex aequo omnibus probantur , qui se Christianos dici postulant . Atque istam distinctionem Sereniss . Rex tanti putat esse momenti ad minuendas Controversias , quae hodie Ecclesiam Dei tantopere exercent , ut omnium pacis studiosorum judicet officium esse , diligentissimè hanc explicare , docere , urgere . OXFORD Printed by LEONARD LICHFIELD , and are to be sold by Iohn Clarke under St Peters Church in Corn-hill . Anno Salutis M.DC.XXXVIII . TO THE MOST HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE , CHARLES By the Grace of God , KING of great Britaine , France & Ireland , Defendor of the Faith &c. May it please your most excellent Majesty , I Present , with all humility , to Your most sacred hands , a Defence of that Cause which is & ought to be infinitely dearer to you , then all the world : Not doubting but upon this Dedication I shall be censur'd for a double boldnesse ; both for undertaking so great a Work , so far beyond my weak abilities , and againe , for presenting it to such a Parton , whose judgement I ought to fear more then any Adversary . But for the first , it is a satisfaction to my selfe , and may be to others , that I was not drawn to it out of any vain opinion of my selfe , ( whose personall defects are the only thing which I presume to know , ) but undertook it in obedience to Him , who said , Tu conversus confirma fratres , not to S. Peter only but to all men : being encouraged also to it by the goodnesse of the Cause , which is able to make a weak man strong . To the belief hereof I was not led partially or by chance , as many are , by the preiudice and prepossession of their Country , Education , and such like inducements , which if they lead to truth in one place , perhaps lead to error in a hundred ; but having with the greatest equality and indifferency , made enquiry and search into the grounds on both Sides , I was willing to impart to others that satisfaction which was given to my selfe . For my inscribing to it your Maiesties sacred Name , I should labour much in my excuse of it from high presumption , had it not some appearance of Title to your Maiesties Patronage & protection as being a Defence of that Book , which by special order from your Maty was written some years since , chiefly for the generall good , but peradventure not without some aime at the recovery of One of your meanest Subiects from a dangerous deviation , & so due unto your Maty , as the fruit of your own High humility and most Royall Charity . Besides , it is in a manner nothing else , but a pursuance of , and a superstruction upon that blessed Doctrine , where With I have adorn'd & arm'd the Frontispice of my Book , which was so earnestly recommended by your Royall Father of happy memory , to all the lovers of Truth & Peace , that is to all that were like himselfe , as the only hopefull meanes of healing the breaches of Christendome , whereof the Enemy of soules makes such pestilent advantage . The lustre of this blessed Doctrine I have here endeavoured to uncloud and unveile , and to free it from those mists and fumes which have been rais'd to obscure it , by that Order , which envenomes even poison it selfe , and makes the Roman Religion much more malignant and trubulent then otherwise it would be : whose very Rule and Doctrine , obliges them to make all men , as much as lies in them , subjects unto Kings , and servants unto Christ , no farther then it shall please the Pope . So that whether Your Maiesty be considered , either as a Pious Sonne towards your Royall Father K. IAMES , or as a tender hearted & compassionate Sonne towards your distressed Mother , the Catholique Church , or as a King of your Subiects , or as a Servant unto Christ , this worke , ( to which I can give no other commendation , but that it was intended to doe you service in all these capacities , ) may pretend not unreasonably to your Gracious acceptance . Lastly being a defence of that whole Church and Religion you professe , it could not be so proper to any Patron as to the great Defendor of it ; which stile your Maiesty hath ever so exactly made good , both in securing it from all dangers , and in vindicating it ( by the well ordering and rectifying this Church ) from all the foule as persions both of Domestick & Forraine enemies , of which they can have no ground , but their own malice and want of Charity . But it is an argument of a despairing & lost cause to support it selfe with these impetuous out-cries and clamors , the faint refuges of those that want better arguments ; like that Stoick in Lucian that cried 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ! O damn'd villaine , when he could say nothing else . Neither is it credible the wiser sort of them should believe this their own horrid assertion , That a God of goodnesse should damne to eternall torments , those that love him and love truth , for errors which they fall into through humane frailty ! But this they must say , otherwise their only great argument from their dāning us , & our not being so peremptory in damning them , because we hope unaffected Ignorance may excuse thē , would be lost : & therefore they are engag'd to act on this Tragicall part , only to fright the simple and ignorant , as we doe litle children by telling them that bites , which we would not have them meddle with . And truely that herein they doe but act a part , and know themselves to doe so , and deale with us here as they doe with the King of Spain at Rome , whom they accurse and Excommunicate for fashion sake on Maundy-Thursday , for detaining part of S. Peters Patrimony , and absolve him without satisfaction on Good-Friday , methinkes their faltring and inconstancy herein , makes it very apparent . For though for the most part , they speak nothing but thunder and lightning to us , & damne us all without mercy or exception , yet sometimes to serve other purposes , they can be content to speak to us in a milder strain , & tell us , as my adversary does , more then once , That they allow Protestants as much Charity as Protestants allow them . Neither is this the only contradiction which I have discover'd in this uncharitable Work ; but have shewed that by forgetting himselfe , & retracting most of the principall grounds he builds upon , he hath sav'd me the labour of a confutation : which yet I have not in any place found any such labor or difficulty , but that it was undertakable by a man of very mean , that is , of my abilities . And the reason is , because it is Truth I plead for ; which is so strong an argument for it selfe , that it needs only light to discover it : whereas it concernes Falshood & Error to use disguises and shadowings and all the fetches of Art and Sophistry , & therefore it stands in need of abler men , to give that a colour at least , which hath no reall body to subsist by . If my endeavours in this kind may contribute any thing to this discovery , and the making plain that Truth ( which my Charity perswades mee the most part of them disaffect only , because it has not been well represented to them , ) I have the fruit of my labour , and my wish ; who desire to live to no other end , then to doe service to Gods Church and Your most Sacred Maiesty , in the quality of Your MAIESTIE'S most faithfull Subject , and most humble and devoted Servant WILLIAM CHILLINGWORTH . MAndetur Typis hic Liber , cui Titulus The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation : In quo nihil occurrit à bonis Moribus , à Doctrinâ & Disciplinâ in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ assertis , alienum . RICH. BAYLIE Vicecan . Oxon. PErlegi hunc Librum , cui Titulus est The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation : In quo nihil reperio Doctrinae vel Disciplinae Ecclesiae Anglicanae adversum , sed quamplurima quae Fidem Orthodoxam egregiè illustrant , & adversantia glossemata acutè , perspicuè , & modestè dissipant . Io. PRIDEAVX S. T. P. Regius Oxon. EGo Samuel Fell Publicus Theol. Professor in Vniv. Oxon. & ordinarius Praelector D. Marg. Comitiss . Richmondiae , perlegi Librum cui Titulus est , The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation : In quo nihil reperio Doctrinae vel Disciplinae Ecclesiae Anglicanae , aut bonis Moribus adversum : sed multa nervosè & modestè eventilata contra Adversarios nostrae Ecclesiae & veritatis Catholicae , quam felicitèr tuetur . Dat. 14● Octob. An. 1637 SAMVEL FELL . THE PREFACE TO THE AVTHOR OF CHARITY MAINTAINED . WITH AN ANSWER TO HIS Pamphlet entituled a Direction to N. N. SIR VPon the first newes of the publication of your Book , I used all diligence with speed to procure it ; and came with such a mind to the reading of it , as S. Austin before he was a setled Catholique , brought to his conference with Faustus the Manichee . For as he though that if any thing more then ordinary might be said in defence of the Manichean Doctrine , Faustus was the man from whom it was to be expected : So my perswasion concerning you was , — Si Pergama dextrâ defendi possunt , certè has defensa videbo . For I conceiv'd that among the Champions of the Roman Church , the English in reason must be the best , or equall to the best , as being by most expert Masters train'd up purposely for this warre , and perpetually practised in it . Among the English , I saw the Iesuites would yeeld the first place to none ; and men so wise in their generation as the Iesuits were , if they had any Achilles among them , I presum'd , would make choice of him for this service . And besides , I had good assurance that in the framing of this building , though you were the only Architect , yet you wanted not the assistance of many diligent hands to bring you in choice materialls towards it ; nor of many carefull and watchfull eyes to correct the errors of your worke , if any should chance to escape you . Great reason therefore had I to expect great matters from you , and that your Book should have in it the Spirit and Elixir of all that can be said in defence of your Church and Doctrine ; and to assure my selfe , that if my resolution not to believe it , were not built upon the rock of evident grounds and reasons , but only upon some sandy and deceitfull appearances , now the wind and storme & floods were coming which would undoubtedly overthrow it . 2 Neither truly were you more willing to effect such an alteration in me then I was to have it effected . For my desire is to goe the right way to eternall happinesse . But whether this way lye on the right hand or the left , or streight forwards ; whether it be by following a living Guide , or by seeking my direction in a book , or by hearkening to the secret whisper of some privat Spirit , to me it is indifferent . And he that is otherwise affected , and has not a travellers indifference , which Epictetus requires in all that would find the truth , but much desires in respect of his ease , or pleasure , or profit , or advancement , or satisfaction of friends , or any human consideration , that one way should be true rather then another ; it is oddes but he will take his desire that it should be so , for an assurance that it is so . But I for my part , unlese I deceive my selfe , was and still am so affected as I have made profession : not willing I confesse to take any thing upon trust , and to believe it without asking my selfe why ; no , nor able to command my selfe ( were I never so willing ) to follow , like a sheepe , every sheepheard that should take upon him to guide me ; or every flock that should chance to goe before me : but most apt and most willing to be led by reason to any way , or from it ; and alwaies submitting all other reasons to this one , God hath said so , therefore it is true . Nor yet was I so unreasonable as to expect Mathematicall demonstrations from you in matters plainly incapable of them , such as are to be believed , and if we speak properly , cannot be known ; such therefore I expected not . For as he is an unreasonable Master , who requires a stronger assent to his conclusions then his arguments deserve ; so I conceive him a froward and undisciplin'd Scholar , who desires stronger arguments for a conclusion then the matter will bear . But had you represented to my understanding such reasons of your Doctrine , as being weighed in an even ballance , held by an even hand , with those on the other side , would have turn'd the scale , and have made your Religion more credible then the contrary ; certainly I should have despised the shame of one more alteration , and with both mine armes and all my heart most readily have embraced it . Such was my expectation from you , and such my preparation , which I brought with me to the reading of your book . Would you know now what the event was , what effect was wrought in me , by the perusall and consideration of it ? To deal truly and ingenuously with you , I fell somewhat in my good opinion both of your sufficiency & syncerity : but was exceedingly confirm'd in my ill opinion of the cause maintained by you . I found every where snares that might entrap , and colours that might deceive the simple ; but nothing that might perswade , and very little that might move an understanding man , and one that can discerne between discourse and sophistry . In short , I was verily perswaded that I plainly saw and could make it appear , to all dis-passionate and unprejudicate Iudges , 〈◊〉 a vein of sophistry and calumny , did run clean through it from 〈◊〉 begining to the end . And letting some friends understand so much , 〈◊〉 my selfe to be perswaded by them , that it would not be either unproper for me , nor un-acceptable to God , nor peradventure altogether unserviceable to his Church , nor justly offensive to you ( if you indeed were a lover of Truth , and not a maintainer of a Faction , ) if setting aside the second Part , which was in a manner wholly employed in particular disputes , repetitions and references , and in wranglings with D. Potter about the sense of some super-numerary quotations , and whereon the main question no way depends , I would make a faire and ingenuous Answer to the first , wherein the substance of the present Controversy is confessedly contained ; and which , if it were clearly answered , no man would desire any other answer to the second . This therefore I undertook with a full resolution to be an adversary to your errors , but a friend and servant to your person : and so much the more a friend to your person , by how much the severer and more rigid adversary I was to your errors . 4 In this work my conscience beares me witnesse that I have according to your advice proceeded alwayes with this consideration , that I am to give a most strict account of every line , and word that passeth under my pen ; and therefore have been precisely carefull for the matter of my book to defend truth only , and only by Truth . And then scrupulously fearefull of scandalizing you or any man with the manner of handling it . From this rule sure I am , I have not willingly swerved in either part of it , and that I might not doe it ignorantly , I have not only my self examined mine owne work , perhaps with more severity then I have done yours , ( as conceiving it a base and unchristian thing to goe about to satisfie others with what I my self am not fully satisfied ; ) But have also made it passe the fiery tryall of the exact censures of many understanding judges , alwaies heartily wishing that you your selfe had been of the Quorum . But they who did undergoe this burthen as they wanted not sufficiencie to discover any heterodoxe doctrine , so I am sure they have been very carefull to let nothing flip dissonant from truth or from the authorized doctrine of the Church of England , and therefore whatsoever causelesse and groundlesse jealousy , any man may entertain concerning my Person , yet my book , I presume , in reason and common equity should be free from them : wherein I hope that little or nothing hath escap'd so many eyes , which being weighed in the ballance of the Sanctuary will be found too light . And in this hope I am much confirm'd , by your strange carriage of your selfe in this whole businesse . For though by some crooked and sinister arts , you have got my Answer into your hands , now a yeare since and upwards , as I have been assured by some that know it , and those of your own party ; though you could not want every day faire opportunityes of sending to me , and acquainting me with any exceptions , which , you conceived , might be justly taken to it , or any part of it , then which nothing could have been more welcome to me , yet hitherto you have not been pleased to acquaint mee with any one . Nay more , though you have been at sundry times , and by severall waies entreated and sollicited , nay press'd and importun'd by me , to joyne with me in a private discussion of the Controversy between us , before the publication of my Answer , ( because I was extremely unwilling to publish any thing which had not passed all manner of tryals , ) as desiring not that I , or my Side , but that truth might overcome on which Side soever it was ) though I have prot●sted to you , and set it under my hand , ( which protestation by Gods help I would have made good ) if you , or any other would undertake your cause , would give me a faire meeting , and choose out of your whole Book any one argument , wherof you were most confident , and by which you would be content the rest should be judged of , and make it appeare that I had not , or could not answer it , that I would desist from the work which I had undertaken , and answer none at all ; though by all the Arts which possibly I could devise , I have provoked you to such a tryall , in particular by assuring you that if you refus'd it , the world should be inform'd of your tergiversation , notwithstanding all this you have perpetually , and obstinately declined it ; which to my understanding is a very evident signe that there is not any truth in your cause , nor ( which is impossible there should bee strength in your arguments , especially considering what our Saviour hath told us , every one that doth evill hateth the light , neither commeth to the light , least his deeds should be reproved ; but he that doth truth commeth to the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God. 5 In the meane while though you despaired of compassing your desire this honest way , yet you have not omitted to tempt me by base and unworthy considerations to desert the cause which I had undertaken ; letting me understand from you , by an acquaintance common to us both , how that in case my work should come to light , my inconstancy in religion ( so you miscall my constancy in following that way to heaven which for the present seemes to me the most probable , ) should bee to my great shame painted to the life ; that my owne writings should be produc●d against my selfe ; that I should bee urged to answer my owne motives against Protestantisme , and that such things should be published to the world touching my beliefe , ( for my painter I must expect should have great skill in perspective ) of the doctrine of the Trinity , the Deity of our Saviour , and all supernaturall verities , as should endanger all my benefices present or future : that this warning was given me , not out of feare of what I could say ( for that Catholiques if they might wish any ill would beg the Publication of my booke , for respects obvious enough , ) but out of a meer charitable desire of my good and reputation : and that all this was said upon a supposition that I was answering , or had a minde to answer Charity maintained ; If not , no harme was done . To which co●●●●us premonition as I remember , I desired the Gentleman , who dealt between us to return this answer , or to this effect , that I believed the Doctrine of the Trinity , the Deity of our Saviour , and all other super-naturall verities revealed in Scripture , as truly and as heartily as your self , or any man : and therefore herein your Charity was very much mistaken ; but much more and more uncharitably in conceiving me a man that was to be wrought upon with these Terribiles visu formae , those carnall and base fears which you presented to me , which were very proper motives for the Divell and his instruments to tempt poor spirited men out of the way of conscience and honesty , but very incongruous , either for Teachers of truth to make use of , or for Lovers of truth ( in which Company I had been long agoe matriculated ) to hearken to with any regard . But if you were indeed desirous that I should not answer Charity maintained , one way there was , and but one , whereby you might obtain your desire ; and that was by letting mee know when and where I might attend you , and by a fair conference , to be written down on both sides , convincing mine understanding ( who was resolv'd not to be a Recusant if I were convicted , ) that any one part of it , any one argument in it , which was of moment and consequence , and whereon the cause depends , was indeed unanswerable . This was the effect of my answer which I am well assur'd was delivered : but reply from you I received none but this , that you would have no conference with me but in Print ; and soone after finding me of proof against all these batteries , and thereby ( I fear ) very much en●aged , you tooke up the resolution of the furious Goddesse in the Poet , madded with the unsuccessefulnesse of her malice , Flectere si neque● superos Acherontamovebo ! 6 For certainly those indigne contumelies , that masse of portentous and execrable calumnies , wherewith in your Pamphlet of Directions to N. N. you have loaded not only my person in particular , but all the learned and moderate Divines of the Church of England , and all Protestants in generall , nay all wise men of all Religions but your own , could not proceed from any other fountain . 7 To begin with the last , you stick not in the beginning of your first Chapter , to fasten the imputation of Atheisme & irreligion upon all wise and gallant men , that are not of your own Religion . In which uncharitable and unchristian judgment , void of all colour or shadow of probability , I know yet by experience that very many of the Bigots of your Faction are partakers with you . God forbid I should think the like of you ! Yet if I should say , that in your Religion there want not some temptations unto , and some Principles of irreligion and Atheisme , I am sure I could make my assertion much more probable then you have done , or can make this horrible imputation . 8 For to passe by first , that which experience justifies , that where and when your Religion hath most absolutely commanded , there and then Atheisme hath most abounded ; To say nothing Secondly , of your notorious and confessed forging of so many false miracles , and so many lying Legends , which is not unlikely to make suspitious men to question the truth of all ; Nor to object to you Thirdly , the abundance of your weak and silly Ceremonies & ridiculous observances in your Religion , which in all probability cannot but beget secret contempt and scorne of it in wise and considering men , and consequently Atheisme and impiety , if they have this perswasion setled in them ( which is too rise among you , and which you account a peece of Wisdome and Gallantry ) that if they be not of your Religion , they were as good be of none at all ; Nor to trouble you Fourthly with this , that a great part of your Doctrine , especially in the points contested , makes apparently for the temporall ends of the teachers of it ; which yet I feare is a great scandall to many Bea●x Esprits among you : Onely I should desire you to consider attentively when you conclude so often from the differences of Protestants , that they have no certainty of any part of their religion , no not of those points wherein they agree , whether you doe not that which so magisterially you direct me not to doe , that is , proceed a destructive way , and object arguments against your adversaries , which tend to the overthrow of all Religion ? And whether as you argue thus , Protestants differ in many things , therefore they have no certainty of any thing : So an Atheist or a Sceptique may not conclude as well , Christians and the Professors of all Religions differ in many things , therefore they have no certainty of any thing ? Again I should desire you to tell me ingenuously , whether it be not too probable that your portentous Doctrine of Transubstantiation joyn'd with your fore-mention'd perswasion of , no Papists no Christians , hath brought a great many others as well as himselfe to Averroes his resolution , Quandoquidē Christiani adorant quod comedunt , sit anima mea cum Philosophis ? Whether your requiring men upon only probable and Prudentiall motives , to yield a most certaine assent unto things in humane reason impossible , and telling them , as you doe too often , that they were as good not believe at all , as believe with any lower degree of faith , be not a likely way to make considering men scorne your Religion , ( and consequently all , if they know no other ) as requiring things contradictory , and impossible to be performed ? Lastly , whether your pretence that there is no good ground to believe Scripture , but your Churches infallibility , joyn'd with your pretending no ground for this but some texts of Scripture , be not a faire way to make them that understand themselves , believe neither Church nor Scripture ? 9 Your calumnies against Protestants in generall are set downe in these words , Chap. 2. § . 2. The very doctrine of Protestants if it bee followed closely , and with coherence to it selfe , must of necessity induce Socinianisme . This I say confidently , and evidently prove , by instancing in one errror , which may well be tearmed the Capitall , and mother Heresy , from which all other must follow at ease ; I mean , their heresy in affirming , that the perpetuall visible Church of Christ , descended by a never interrupted succession from our Saviour , to this day , is not infallible in all that it proposeth to be believed , as revealed truths . For if the infallibility of such a publique Authority be once impeached ; what remaines , but that every man is given over to his own wit , and discourse ? And talke not here , of holy Scripture . For if the true Church may erre , in defining what Scriptures be Canonicall ; or in delivering the sense and meaning thereof , we are still devolved , either upon the private spirit ( a foolery now explo●ed out of England , which finally leaving every man to his own conceits , ends in Socinianisme ) or else upon naturall wit , and judgement . for examining and determining , what Scriptures contain true or false doctrine , and in that respect , ought to be received , or rejected . And indeed , take away the authority of Gods Church , no man can be assured , that any one Book , or parcell of Scripture , was written by divine inspiration ; or that all the contents , are infallibly true ; which are the direct errors of Socinians . If it were but for thi● reason alone , no man , who regards the eternall salvation of his soule , would live or dye in Protestancy , from which , so vast absurdities as these of the Socinians must inevitably follow . And it ought to be an unspeakable comfort to all us Catholiques , while we consider , that none can deny the infallible authority of our Church , but joyntly he must be left to his own wit and waies ; and must abandon all infused faith , and true Religion , if he doe but understand himselfe aright . In all which discourse , the only true word you speak is , This I say confidently : As for proving evidently , that I believe you reserved for some other opportunity : for the present I am sure you have been very sparing of it . 10 You say indeed confidently enough , that the denyall of the Churches infallibility is the Mother Heresy , from which all other must follow at ease : Which is so farre from being a necessary truth , as you make it , that it is indeed a manifest falshood . Neither is it possible for the wit of man by any good , or so much as probable consequence , from the deniall of the Churches Infallibility to deduce any one of the ancient Heresies , or any one error of the Socinians , which are the Heresies here entreated of . For who would not laugh at him that should argue thus ; Neither the Church of Rome , nor any other Church is infallible , go , The doctrine of Arrius , Pelagius , Eutyches , Nestorius , Photinus , Manichaeus was true Doctrine ? On the other side , it may be truly sayed and justified by very good and effectuall reason , that he that affirms with you , the Popes infallibility , puts himself into his hands and power to be led by him at his ease and pleasure into all Heresy , and even to Hell it self , and cannot with reason say ( so long as he is constant to his grounds ) Domine cur ita facis ? but must believe white to be black and black to be white , vertue to be vice and vice to be vertue ; nay ( which is a horrible but a most certain truth ) Christ to be Antichrist and Antichrist to be Christ , if it be possible for the Pope to say so : Which I say and will maintain , howsoever you daube and disguise it , is indeed to make men Apostate from Christ to his pretended Vicar , but reall enemy . For that name and no better ( if we may speak truth without offence ) I presume he deserves , who under pretence of interpreting the law of Christ , ( which Authority without any word of expresse warrant he hath taken upon himself , ) doth in many parts evacuate and dissolve it : So dethroning Christ from his dominion over mens consciences , and in stead of Christ , setting up himself . In as much as he that requires that his interpretations of any law should be obeyed as true and genuine , seeme they to mens understandings never so dissonant and discordant from it , ( as the Bishop of Rome does ) requires indeed that his interpretations should be the Laws ; and he that is firmly prepared in mind to believe and receive all such interpretations without judging of them , and though to his private judgment they seem unreasonable , is indeed congruously disposed to hold adultery a veniall sin , and fornication no sinne , whensoever the Pope and his adherents shall so declare . And whatsoever he may plead , yet either wittingly or ignorantly he makes the Law and the Lawmaker both stales , and obeyes only the interpreter . As if I should pretend that I should submit to the Laws of the King of England , but should indeed resolve to obey them in that sence which the King of France should put upon them what soever it were ; I presume every understanding man would say that I did indeed obey the King of France and not the King of England . If I should pretend to believe the Bible , but that I would understand it according to the sence which the chiefe Mufty should put upon it , who would not say that I were a Christian in pretence only , but indeed a Mahumetan ? 11 Nor will it be to purpose for you to pretend that the precepts of Christ are so plain that it cannot be feared , that any Pope should ever goe about to dissolve them and pretend to be a Christian : For , not to say that you now pretend the contrary , ( to wit ) , that the law of Christ is obscure even in things necessary to be believed and done ; and by saying so , have made a fair way for any fowle● interpretation of any part of it : certainly that which the Church of Rome hath already done in this kind is an evident argument , that ( if she once had this power unquestion'd and made expedite and ready for use , by being contracted to the Pope ) she may doe what she pleaseth with it . Who that had liv'd in the Primitive Church , would not have thought it as utterly improbable , that ever they should have brought in the worship of Images and picturing of God , as now it is that they should legitimate fornication ? Why may we not think they may in time take away the whole Communion from the Laity , as well as they have taken away half of it ? Why may we not think that any Text and any sence may not be accorded , aswell as the whole 14. Ch. of the Ep. of S. Paul to the Corinth . is reconcil'd to the Latine service ? How is it possible any thing should be plainer forbidden , then the worship of Angels , in the Ep. to the Colossians ? then the teaching for Doctrines mens commands in the Gospell of S. Mark ? And therefore seeing we see these things done which hardly any man would have believ'd , that had not seen them , why should we not fear that this unlimited power may not be us'd hereafter with as litle moderation ? Seeing devices have been invented how men may worship images without Idolatry , and kill innocent men under pretence of heresie without murder , who knowes not that some tricks may not be hereafter deuis'd , by which lying with other mens wives shall be no Adultery , taking away other mens goods no theft ? I conclude therefore , that if Solomon himself were here , and were to determine the difference , which is more likely to be mother of all Heresy , The deniall of the Churche's or the affirming of the Popes infallibility , that he would certainly say this is the mother , give her the child . 12 You say again confidently , that if this infallibility be once impeached , every man is given ●ver to his own wit and discourse : which , if you mean , discourse , not guiding it selfe by Scripture , but only by principles of nature , or perhaps by prejudices and popular errors , and drawing consequences not by rule but chance , is by no means true ; if you mean by discourse , right reason , grounded on Divine revelation and common notions , written by God in the hearts of all men , and deducing , according to the never failing rules of Logick , consequent deductions from them , if this be it , which you mean by discourse , it is very meet & reasonable & necessary that men , as in all their actions , so especially in that of greatest importance , the choice of their way to happinesse , should be left unto it : and he that followes this in all his opinions and actions , and does not only seeme to doe so , followes alwaies God ; whereas he that followeth a Company of men , may oftimes follow a company of beasts . And in saying this , I say no more then S. Iohn to all Christians in these words , Dearly beloved believe not every spirit , but try the spirits , whether they be of God , or no : and the rule he gives them to make this tryall by , is to consider whether they confesse Iesus to be the Christ ; that is , the Guide of their Faith , and Lord of their actions ; no● whether they acknowledge the Pope to be his Vicar : I say no more then S. Paul in exhorting all Christians , to try all things and to hold fast that which is good ; then S. Peter in cōmanding all Christians , to be ready to give a reason of the hope that is in them : then our Saviour himselfe in forewarning all his followers , that if they blindly followed blind guides , both leaders and followers should fall into the ditch ; and again in saying even to the people , Yea & why of your selves iudge ye not what is right ? And though by passion , or precipitation , or preiudice ; by want of reason , or not using that they have , men may be and are oftentimes led into error and mischiefe ; yet that they cannot be misguided by discourse truly so called , such as I have described , you your selfe have given them security . For what is discourse , but drawing conclusions out of premises by good consequence ? Now the principles which we have setled , to wit , the Scriptures , are on all sides agreed to be infallibly true . And you have told us in the fourth chap. of this Pamphlet , that from truth no man can by good consequence inferre falshood ; Therefore by discourse no man can possibly be led to error : but if he erre in his conclusions , he must of necessity either erre in his principles , ( which here cannot have place , ) or commit some error in his discourse ; that is indeed , not discourse but seeme to doe so . 13 You say thirdly with sufficient confidence , that if the true Church may erre in defining what Scriptures be Canonicall , or in delivering the sense thereof , then we must follow either the privat Spirit , or else naturall wit and iudgement , and by them examine what Scriptures containe true or false doctrine , and in that respect ought to be received or reiected : All which is apparently untrue , neither can any proofe of it be pretended . For though the present Church may possibly erre in her judgement touching this matter , yet have we other directions in it , besides the privat spirit , and the examination of the contents , ( which latter way may conclude the negative very strongly , to wit , that such or such a book cannot come from God , because it containes irreconcileable contradictions , but the affirmative it cannot conclude , because the contents of a book may be all true , and yet the book not written by divine inspiration : ) other direction therefore I say we have , besides either of these three , & that is , the testimony of the Primitive Christians . 14 You say Fourthly with convenient boldnesse , That this infallible Authority of your Church being denied , no man can be assur'd , that any parcell of Scripture was written by Divine inspiration : Which is an untruth , for which no proofe is pretended , and besides , void of modesty and full of impiety . The first , because the experience of innumerable Christians is against it , who are sufficiently assur'd , that the Scripture is divinely inspir'd , and yet deny the infallible authority of your Church or any other . The second , because if● I cannot have ground to be assur'd of the divine authority of Scripture , unlesse I first believe your Church infallible , then I can have no ground at all to believe it : because there is no ground , nor can any be pretended why I should believe your Church infallible , unlesse I first beleeve the Scripture divine . 15 Fiftly and lastly , You say with confidence in abundance , that none can deny the infallible authority of your Church , but he must abandon all infus'd faith and true religion , if he doe but understand him selfe : Which is to say , agreeable to what you had said before , and what out of the abundance of your hearts you speak very often , That all Christians besides you , are open Fooles , or conceal'd Atheists . All this you say with notable confidence ( as the manner of Sophisters is , to place their confidence of prevailing in their confident manner of speaking , ) but then for the evidence you promised to maintaine this confidence , that is quite vanished and become invisible . 16 Had I a mind to recriminate now , and to charge Papists ( as you doe Protestants ) that they lead men to Socinianisme , I could certainly make a much fairer shew of evidence then you have done . For I would not tell you , you deny the infallibility of the Church of England , ergo you lead to Socinianisme , which yet is altogether as good an Argument as this ; Protestants deny the infallibility of the Roman Church , ergo they induce Socinianisme : Nor would I resume my former Argument , and urge you , that by holding the Popes infallibility , you submit your selfe to that capitall and Mother Heresy , by advantage whereof , he may lead you at ease to believe vertue vice , and vice vertue , to believe Antichristianity Christianisme , and Christianity Antichristian ; he may lead you to Socinianisme , to Turcisme , nay to the Divell himselfe if he have a mind to it : But I would shew you that divers waies the Doctors of your Church doe the principall and proper work of the Socinians for the , undermining the Doctrine of the Trinity , by denying it to be supported by those pillars of the Faith , which alone are fit and able to support it , I mean Scripture , and the Consent of the ancient Doctors . 17 For Scripture , your men deny very plainly and frequently , that this Doctrine can be proved by it . See if you please this plainly taught , and urged very earnestly by Cardinall Hosius , De Author . Sac. Scrip. l. 3. p. 53. By Gordonius Huntlaeus , Contr. Tom. 1. Controv. 1. De verbo Dei C. 19. by Gretserus and Tanerus , in Colloquio Ratesbon : And also by Vega , Possevin , Wiekus , and Others . 18 And then for the Consent of the Ancients , that that also delivers it not , by whom are we taught but by Papists only ? Who is it that makes known to all the world , that Eusebius that great searcher and devourer of the Christian libraries was an Arrian ? Is it not your great Achilles , Cardinall Perron , in his 3. Book 2. Chap. of his Reply to K. Iames ? Who is it that informs us that Origen ( who never was questioned for any error in this matter , in or neere his time ) denied the Divinity of the Sonne and the Holy Ghost ? Is it not the same great Cardinall , in his Book of the Eucharist against M. du Plessis . l. 2. c. 7 ? Who is it that pretends that Irenaeus hath said those things , which he that should now hold , would be esteem'd an Arrian ? Is it not the same Perron in his Reply to K. Iames , in the fift Chap. of his fourth observation ? And does he not in the same place peach Tertullian also , & in a manner give him away to the Arrians ? And pronounce generally of the Fathers before the Councell of Nice , That the Arrians would gladly be tryed by them ? And are not your fellow Iesuits also , even the prime men of your Order , prevaricators in this point as well as others ? Doth not your friend M. Fisher , or M. Flued in his book of the Nine Questions proposed to him by K. Iames speak dangerously to the same purpose , in his discourse of the Resolution of Faith , towards the end ? Giving us to understand , That the new Reformed Arrians bring very many testimonies of the ancient Fathers to prove that in this Point they did contradict themselves and were contrary one to another : which places whosoever shall read will cleerely see , that to common people they are unanswerable , yea that common people are not capable of the answers that learned men yeeld unto such obscure passages . And hath not your great Antiquary Petavius , in his Notes upon Epiphanius in Haer. 69. been very liberall to the Adversaries of the Doctrine of the Trinity , and in a manner given them for Patrons and Advocates , first Iustin Martyr , and then almost all the Fathers before the Councell of Nice , whose speeches he saies , touching this point , cum Orthodoxae fidei regula minime consentiunt ? Hereunto I might adde that the Dominicans and Iesuits between them in another matter of great importance , viz. Gods Prescience of future contingents , give the Socinians the premises , out of which their conclusion doth unavoidably follow . For the Domini●ans maintain on the one Side , that God can foresee nothing but what he Decrees : The Iesuits on the other Side , that he doth not Decree all things : And from hence the Socinians conclude ( as it is obvious for them to doe ) that he doth not foresee all things . Lastly , I might adjoyn this , that you agree with one consent , and settle for a rule unquestionable , that no part of Religion can be repugnant to reason , whereunto you in particular subscribe unawares in saying , From truth no man can by good consequence inferre Falshood , which is to say in effect , that Reason can never lead any man to error : And after you have done so , you proclaime to all the world ( as you in this Pamphlet doe very frequently , ) that if men follow their Reason and discourse , they will ( if they understand themselves ) be led to Socinianisme . And thus you see with what probable matter I might furnish out and justify my accusation , if I should charge you with leading men to Socinianisme ! Yet I doe not conceive that I have ground enough for this odious imputation . And much lesse should you have charg'd Protestants with it , whom you confesse to abhorre and detest it : and who fight against it not with the broken reeds , and out of the paper fortresses of an imaginary Infallibility , which were only to make sport for their Adversaries ; but with the sword of the Spirit , the Word of God : of which we may say most truly , what David said of Goliah's sword , offered him by Abilech , non est sicut iste , There is none comparable to it . 19 Thus Protestants in generall , I hope , are sufficiently vindicated from your calumny : I proceed now to doe the same service for the Divines of England ; whom you question first in point of learning and sufficiency , and then in point of conscience and honesty , as prevaricating in the Religion which they professe , and inclining to Popery . Their Learning ( you say ) consists only in some superficiall talent of preaching , languages , and elocution , and not in any deep knowledge of Philosophy , especially of Metaphysicks , and much lesse of that most solid , profitable , subtile , & ( O rē ridiculā Cato & jocosā ! ) succinct method of School-Divinity . Wherein you have discovered in your self the true Genius and spirit of detraction . For taking advantage from that wherein envy it self cannot deny but they are very eminent , and which requires great sufficiency of substantiall learning , you disparage them as insufficient in all things else . As if forsooth , because they dispute not eternally , Vtrū Chimaera bombinans in vacuo , possit comedere , secundas Intentiones ? Whether a Million of Angels may not sit upon a needles point ? Becuase they fill not their brains with notions that signify nothing , to the utter extermination of all reason and common sence , and spend not an Age in weaving and un-weaving subtile cobwebs , fitter to catch flyes then Souls ; therefore they have no deepe knowledge in the Acroamaticall part of learning ! But I have too much honour'd the poornesse of this detraction to take notice of it . 20 The other Part of your accusation strikes deeper , and is more cōsiderable : And that tels us that , Protestantisme waxeth weary of it self ; that the Professors of it , they especially of greatest worth , learning , and authority , love temper and moderation : and are at this time more unresolved where to fasten , then at the infancy of their Church : That their Churches begin to look with a new face : Their w●lls to speak a new language : Their Doctrine to be altered in many things for which their Progenitors forsook the then Visible Church of Christ : For example , the Pope not Antichrist : Prayer for the dead : Limbus Patrum : Pictures : That the Church hath Authority in determining Controversies of Faith , and to interpret Scripture ; about Freewill , Predestination , Vniversall grace : That all our works are not sinnes : Merit of good works : Inherent Iustice : Faith alone doth not justify : Charity to be preferr'd before knowledge : Traditions : Commandements possible to be kept : That their thirty nine Articles are patient , nay ambitious of some sence wherein they may seem Catholique : That to alleage the necessity of wife and children in these dayes is but a weak plea for a married minister to compasse a Benefice : That Calvinisme is at length accounted Heresy , and little lesse then treason : That men in talk and writing use willingly the once fearfull names of Priests and Altars : That they are now put in mind that for exposition of Scripture they are by Canon bound to follow the Fathers : which if they doe with syncerity , it is easy to tell what doome will passe against Protestants ; seeing by the confession of Protestants , the Fathers are on the Papists side , which the Answerer to some so clearly demonstrated , that they remain'd convinc'd : In fine , as the Samaritans saw in the Disciples countenances that they meant to goe to Hierusalem , so you pretend it is even legible in the fore-heads of these men , that they are even going , nay making hast to Rome . Which scurrilous libell void of all truth , discretion and honesty , what effect it may have wrought , what credit it may have gain'd with credulous Papists , ( who dream what they desire , and believe their own dreams , ) or with ill-affected , jealous , and weak Protestants , I can not tell : But one thing I dare boldly say , that you your selfe did never believe it . 21 For did you indeed conceive , or had any probable hope , that such men as you describe , men of worth of learning and authority too , were friends and favourers of your Religion , & inclinable to your Party , can any man imagine that you would proclaim it , and bid the world take heed of them ? Sic notus Vlysses ? Doe we know the lesuites no better then so ? What are they turned prevaricators against their own Faction ? Are they likely men to betray and expose their own Agents and instruments , and to awaken the eyes of jealousy , and to raise the clamor of the people against them ? Certainly your Zeal to the Sea of Rome , testified by your fourth Vow of speciall obedience to the Pope , proper to your Order , and your cunning carriage of all affairs for the greater advantage and advancement of that Sea , are clear demonstrations that if you had thought thus , you would never have said so . The truth is , they that run to extreams in opposition against you , they that pull downe your infallibility and set up their own , they that declaim against your tyranny , and exercise it themselves over otheres , are the Adversaries that give you greatest advantage , and such as you love to deale with : whereas upon men of temper & moderatiō , such as will oppose nothing because you maintain it , but will draw as neere to you , that they may draw you to them , as the truth will suffer them : such as require of Christians to believe only in Christ , and will damne no man nor Doctrine without expresse and certaine warrant from gods word : upon such as these you know not how to fasten ; but if you chance to have conference with any such , ( which yet as much as possibly you can you avoid and decline , ) you are very speedily put to silence , and see the indefensible weaknesse of your cause laid open to all men . And this I verily believe , is the true reason that you thus rave and rage against them , as foreseeing your time of prevailing , or even of subsisting , would be short , if other Adversaries gave you no more advantage then they doe . 22 In which perswasion also I am much confirmed by consideration of the sillynesse and poornesse of those suggestions , and partly of the apparent vanity and falshood of them , which you offer in justification of this wicked calumny . For what if out of devotion towards God ; out of a desire that he should be worshipped as in Spirit and truth in the first place , so also in the beauty of holinesse ? what if out of feare that too much simplicity and nakednesse in the publique Service of God may beget in the ordinary sort of men a dull and stupid irreverence , and out of hope that the outward state and glory of it , being well dispos'd and wisely moderated , may ingender , quicken , increase and nourish the inward reverence respect and devotion which is due unto Gods Soveraign Majesty and power ? what if out of a perswasion and desire that Papists may be wonne over to us the sooner , by the removing of this scandall out of their way ; and out of an holy jealousy , that the weaker sort of Protestants might be the easier seduced to them by the magnificence and pomp of their Church-service in case it were not removed ? I say , what if out of these considerations , the Governors of our Church , more of late then formerly , have set themselves to adorn and beautifie the places where Gods honour dwells , and to make them as heavenly as they can with earthly ornaments ? Is this a signe that they are warping towards Popery ? Is this Devotion in the Church of England an argument that shee is coming over to the Church of Rome ? Sir Edwin Sands , I presume every man will grant , had no inclination that way ; yet he forty years since highly commended this part of devotion in Papists , and makes no scruple of proposing it to the imitation of Protestants : Litle thinking that they who would follow his counsell , and endeavour to take away this disparagement of Protestants , and this glorying of Papists , should have been censur'd for it as making way and inclining to Popery . His words to this purpose are excellent words , and because they shew plainly , that what is now practis'd was approv'd by Zealous Protestants so long agoe , I will here set them down . 23 This one thing I cannot but highly commend in that sort and Order : They spare nothing which either cost can perform in enriching , or skill in adorning the Temple of God , or to set out his Service with the greatest pompe and magnificence that can be devised . And although , for the most part , much basenesse and childishnesse is predominant in the Masters and contrivers of their Ceremonies , yet this outward state and glory being well disposed , doth ingender , quicken , increase , and nourish the inward reverence , respect and devotion , which is due unto Soveraign Majesty and Power . And although I am not ignorant that many men well reputed have embraced the thrifty opinion of that Disciple who thought all to be wasted that was bestowed upon Christ in that sort , and that it were much better bestowed upon him on the poor , ( yet with an eye perhaps that themselves would be his quarter Almoners , ) notwithstanding I must confesse , it will never sink into my heart , that in proportion of reason , the allowance for furnishing out of the service of God should be measured by the scant and strict rule of meere necessity , ( a proportion so low that nature to other most bountifull in matter of necessity , hath not fayled no not the most ignoble creatures of the world , ) and that for our selves no measure of heaping but the most we can get , no rule of expence but to the utmost pompe we list : Or that God himself had so inrich'd the lower parts of the world with such wonderfull varieties of beauty and glory , that they might serve only to the pampering of mortall man in his pride ; and that in the Service of the high creator Lord and giver ( the outward glory of whose higher pallace may appear by the very lamps that we see so farre of burning gloriously in it ) only the simpler , baser , cheaper , lesse noble , lesse beautifull , lesse glorious things should be imployed . Especially seeing as in Princes courts , so in the service of God also , this outward state and glory , being well dispos'd , doth ( as I have said ) ingender , quicken , increase and nourish the inward reverence , respect and devotion , which is due to so Soveraign majesty and power . Which those whom the use there of cannot perswade unto , would easily by the want of it be brought to confesse ; for which cause I crave leave to be excused by them herein , if in Zeal to the common Lord of all , I choose rather to commend the vertue of an enemy then to flatter the vice and imbecility of a friend . And so much for this matter . 24 Again , what if the names of Priests and Altars so frequent in the ancient Fathers , though not in the now Popish sense , be now resum'd and more commonly used in England then of late times they were : that so the colourable argument of their conformity , which is but nominall , with the ancient Church , and our inconformity , which the Governors of the Church would not have so much as nominall , may be taken away from them ▪ and the Church of England may be put in a state , in this regard more justifiable against the Roman then formerly it was , being hereby enabled to say to Papists ( whensoever these names are objected , ) we also use the names of Priests and Altars , and yet believe neither the corporall Presence , nor any Proper and propitiatory Sacrifice ? 25 What if Protestants be now put in mind , that for exposition of Scripture , they are bound by a Canon to follow the ancient Fathers : which whosoever doth with syncerity , it is utterly impossible he should be a Papist ? And it is most falsely said by you , that you know that to some Protestants , I cleerly demonstrated , or ever so much as undertook , or went about to demonstrate the contrary . What if the Centurists be censur'd somewhat roundly by a Protestant Divine for affrming , that the keeping of the Lords day was a thing indifferent for two hundred yeares ? Is there in all this or any part of it any kind of proofe of this scandalous calumny ? Certainly if you can make no better arguments then these , and have so little judgement as to think these any , you have great reason to decline conferences , and Signior Con to prohibite you from writing books any more . 26 As for the points of Doctrine wherein you pretend that these Divines begin of late to falter , and to comply with the Church of Rome , upon a due examination of particulars it will presently appear , First , that part of them alwaies have been , and now are held constantly one way by them ; as the Authority of the Church in determining Controversies of faith , though not the infallibility of it : That there is Inherent Iustice , though so imperfect that it cannot justify : That there are Traditions , though none necessary : That charity is to be preferr'd before knowledge : That good Works are not properly meritorious And lastly , that faith alone justifies , though that faith justifies not which is alone . And secondly , for the remainder that they , every one of them , have been anciently without breach of charity disputed among Protestants , such for example were the Questions about the Popes being the Antichrist , The lawfulnesse of some kind of prayers for the dead , the Estate of the Fathers souls , before Christs ascention ; Freewill , Predestination , Vniversall grace : The Possibility of keeping Gods commandements . The use of Pictures in the Church : Wherein that there hath been anciently diversity of opinion amongst Protestants , it is justifyed to my hand by a witnesse , with you , beyond exception , even your great friend M. Brerely , whose care , exactnesse and fidelity ( you say in your Preface ) is so extraordinary great . Consult him therefore : Tract . 3. Sect. 7. of his Apology : And in the 9. 10. 11. 14. 24. 26. 27. 37. Subdivisions of that Section , you shall see as in a mirror , your selfe prov'd an egregious calumniator , for charging Protestants with innovation and inclining to Popery , under pretence forsooth , that their Doctrine beginnes of late to be altered in these points . Whereas , M. Brerely will informe you , they have been anciently , and even from the begining of the Reformation , controverted amongst them , though perhaps the stream and current of their Doctors runne one way , and only some brooke or rivulet of them the other . 27 And thus my Friends , I suppose are cleerely vindicated , from your scandalls and calumnies : It remaines now that in the last place I bring my selfe fairely off from your foule aspersions , that so my person may not be ( as indeed howsoever it should not be ) any disadvantage or disparagement to the cause , nor any scandall to weake Christians . 28 Your injuries then to me ( no way deserved by me , but by differing in opinion from you , wherein yet you surely differ from me as much as I from you , ) are especially three . For first upon heere●ay , & refusing to give me oportunity of begetting in you a better understanding of me , you charge me with a great number of false and impious doctrines , which I will not name in particular , because I will not assist you so farre in the spreading of my own undeserved defamation : but whosoever teaches or holds them let him be Anathema ! The summe of them all cast up by your selfe , in your first chap. is this , Nothing ought or can be certainly believed , farther then it may be proved by evidence of Naturall reason : ( where I conceive Naturall reason is oppos'd to supernaturall Revelation ) and whosoever holds so let him be Anathema ! And moreover to clear my selfe once for all , from all imputations of this nature , which charge me injuriously with deniall of Supernaturall Verities , I professe syncerely , that I believe all those Books of Scripture , which the Church of England accounts Canonicall , to be the Infallible word of God : I believe all things evidently contained in them ; all things evidently , or even probably deducible from them : I acknowledge all that to be Heresy , which by the Act of Parliament primo of Q. ELIZ. is declar'd to be so , & only to be so : And though in such points which may he held diversly of divers men salvâ Fidei compage . I would not take any mans liberty from him , and humbly beseech all men , that they would not take mine from me ! Yet thus much I can say ( which I hope will satisfy any man of reason , ) that whatsoever hath been held necessary to salvation , either by the Catholique Church of all ages , or by the consent of Fathers , measur'd by Vincentius Lyrinensis his rule , or is held necessary either by the Catholique Church of this age , or by the consent of Protestants , or even by the Church of England , that , against the Socinians , and all others whatsoever , I doe verily believe and embrace . 29 Another great and manifest injury you have done me , in charging me to have forsaken your Religion , because it condus'd not to my temporall ends , and suted not with my desires and designes : Which certainly is a horrible crime , & whereof if you could convince me , by just and strong presumptions , I should then acknowledge my selfe to deserve that opinion , which you would faine induce your credents unto , that I chang'd not your Religion for any other but for none at all . But of this great fault my conscience acquits me , and God , who only knowes the hearts of all men , knowes that I am innocent ? Neither doubt I but all they who know me , and amongst them many Persons of place and quality , will say they have reason in this matter to be my compurgators . And for you , though you are very affirmative in your accusation , yet you neither doe , nor can produce any proof or presumption for it , but forgeting your selfe , ( as it is Gods will oftimes that slanderers should doe ) have let fall some passages which being well weighed , will make considering men apt to believe , that you did not believe your selfe . For how is it possible , you should believe that I deserted your Religion for ends , & against the light of my conscience , out of a desire of preferment , and yet out of scruple of conscience , should refuse ( which also you impute to me , ) to subscribe the 39 Articles , that is , refuse to enter at the only common dore , which here in England leads to preferment ? Again how incredible is it that you should believe , that I forsooke the profession of your Religion , as not suting with my desires and designes , which yet reconciles the enjoying of the pleasures and profits of sinne here , with the hope of happinesse hereafter , and proposes as great hope of great temporall advancements to the capable servants of it , as any , nay more then any Religion in the world ; and instead of this should choose Socinianisme , a Doctrine , which howsoever erroneous in explicating the mysteries of Religion , and allowing greater liberty of opinion in speculative matters , then any other Company of Christians doth or they should doe , yet certainly which you , I am sure , will pretend and maintaine to explicate the Lawes of Christ with more rigor , and lesse indulgence and condescendence to the desires of flesh and blood then your Doctrine doth ! And besides , such a Doctrine by which no man in his right mind , can hope for any honour or preferment either in this Church or State or any other ! All which cleerely demonstrates that this foule and false aspersion , which you have cast upon mee , proceeds from no other fountaine , but a heart abounding with the gall and bitternesse of uncharitablenesse , and even blinded with malice towards me , or else from a perverse zeale to your superstition , which secretly suggests this perswasion to you , That for the Catholique cause nothing is unlawfull , but that you may make use of such indirect and crooked arts as these , to blast my reputation , and to possesse mens minds with disaffection to my person , least otherwise peradventure they might with some indifference hear reason from me . God I hope which bringeth light out of darknesse , will turne your counsells to foolishnesse , and give all good men grace to perceive how weak and ruinous that Religion must be , which needs supportance from such tricks and devices ! So I call them because they deserve no better name : For what are all these Personall matters , which hitherto you have spoke of , to the businesse in hand ? If it could be prov'd , that Cardinall Bellarmine was indeed a Iew , or that Cardinall Perron was an Atheist , yet I presume you would not accept of this for an answer to all their writings in defence of your Religion . Let then my actions and intentions and opinions be what they will , yet I hope truth is neverthelesse truth , nor reason ever the lesse Reason because I speak it . And therefore the Christian Reader , knowing that his Salvation or damnation depends upon his impartiall and sincere judgment of these things , will guard himself I hope from these impostures , and regard not the person but the cause and the reasons of it ; not who speakes but what is spoken : Which is all the favour I desire of him , as knowing that I am desirous not to perswade him , unlesse it be truth whereunto I perswade him . 30 The third and la●t part of my Accusation was , that I answer ou● of Principles which Protestants themselves will professe to detest : which indeed were to the purpose if it could be justified . But , besides that it is confuted by my whole Book , and made ridiculous by the Approbations premis'd unto it , it is very easy for mee out of your own mouth and words to prove it a most injurious calumny . For what one conclusion is there is the whole fabrick of my discourse , that is not naturally deducible out of this one Principle , That all things necessary to salvation are evidently contain'd in Scripture ? Or what one Conclusion almost of importance is there in your Book , which is not by this one cleerly confutable ? Grant this , and it will presently follow in opposition to your first Conclusion , and the argument of your first Ch : that amongst men of different opinions , touching the obscure and controverted Questions of Religiō , such as may with probability be disputed on both Sides ( and such as are the disputes of Protestants ; ) Good men and lovers of truth of all Sides may bee sav'd ; because all necessary things being suppos'd evident , concerning them , with men so qualified , there will be no difference : There being no more certain signe that a Point is not evident , then that honest and understanding and indifferent men , and such as give themselves liberty of judgment , after a mature consideration of the matter differ about it . 31 Grant this , and it will appear Secondly , that the means whereby the revealed Truths of God are conveyed to our understanding , and which are to determine all Controversies in Faith , necessary to be determined , may be , for any thing you have said to the contrary , not a Church but the Scripture ; which contradicts the Doctrine of your Second Chapter . 32 Grant this , and the distinction of points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall , will appear very good and pertinent . For those truths will be fundamentall , which , are evidently delivered in Scripture and commanded to be preach't to all men ; Those not fundamentall which are obscure . And nothing will hinder but that the Catholique Church may erre in the latter kind of the said points : because Truths not necessary to the Salvation , cannot be necessary to the being of a Church ; and because it is not absolutely necessary that God should assist his Church any farther then to bring her to Salvation ; neither will there be any necessity at all of any infallible Guide , either to consigne unwritten Traditions , or to declare the obscurities of the faith . Not for the former end , because this Principle being granted true , nothing unwritten can be necessary to be consign'd . Nor for the latter , because nothing that is obcsure can be necessary to be understood , or not mistaken . And so the discourse of your whole Third Chap : will presently vanish . 33 Fourthly , for the Creed's containing the Fundamentals of simple belief , though I see not how it may be deduc'd from this principle , yet the granting of this plainly renders the whole dispute touching the Creed unnecessary . For if all necessary things of all sorts , whether of simple belief or practice be confess'd to bee cleerly contain'd in Scripture , what imports it whether those of one sort bee contain'd in the Creed ? 34 Fiftly let this be granted , and the immediate Corollary in opsition to your fift Ch : will be and must be , That , not Protestants for rejecting , but the Church of Rome for imposing upon the Faith of Christians , Doctrines unwritten and unnecessary , and for disturbing the Churches peace and dividing Vnity for such matters , is in a high degree presumptuous and Schismaticall . 35 Grant this sixtly , and it will follow unavoidably that Protestants cannot possibly be Heretiques , seeing they believe all things evidently contain'd in Scripture , which are suppos'd to be all that is necessary to be believed : and so your Sixt Chapter is cleerly confuted . 36 Grant this lastly , and it will be undoubtedly consequent , in contradiction of your seaventh Chapter , that no man can shew more charity to himself then by continuing a Protestant , seeing Protestants are suppos ' to believe , and therefore may accordingly practise , at least by their Religion are not hindred from practising and performing all things necessary to Salvation . 37 So that the position of this one Principle , is the direct overthrow of your whole Book , and therefore I needed not , nor indeed have I made use of any other . Now this principle , which is not only the corner stone or chief Pillar , but even the base , and adequate foundation of my Answer ; and which while it stands firme and unmoveable , cannot but bee the supporter of my Book and the certain ruine of yours , is so farre from being , according to your pretence , detested by all Protestants , that all Protestants whatsoever , as you may see in their Harmony of confessions , unanimously professe and maintain it . And you your selfe , C. 6. § 30. plainly confesse as much , in saying , The whole Edifice of the faith of Protestants is setled on these two Principles : These particular Books are Canonicall Scripture : And the sense and meaning of them is plain and evident at least in all points necessary to Salvation . 38 And thus your venome against me is in a manner spent , saving only that there remain two litle impertinencies , whereby you would disable me from being a fit advocate for the cause of Protestants . The first , because I refuse to subscribe the Artic. of the Ch. of England : The second because I have set down in writing motives which sometime induc'd mee to forsake Protestantisme , and hitherto have not answered them . 39 By the former of which objections it should seeme , that either you conceive the 39 Articles the common Doctrine of all Protestants ; and if they be , why have you so often upbraided them with their many and great differences ? Or else that it is the peculiar defence of the Church of England , and not the common cause of all Protestants , which is here undertaken by me : which are certainly very grosse mistakes . And yet why hee who makes scruple of subscribing the truth of one or two Propositions may not yet bee fit enough to maintain that those who doe subscribe them are in a saveable condition , I doe not understand . Now though I hold not the Doctrine of all Protestants absoluetly true , ( which with reason cannot bee requir'd of mee while they hold contradictions , ) yet I hold it free from all impiety , and from all error destructive of Salvation , or in it self damnable : And this I think in reason may sufficiently qualifie me , for a maintainer of this assertion , that Protestancie destroies not Salvation . For the Church of England , I am perswaded that the constant Doctrine of it is so pure and Orthodoxe , that whosoever believes it and lives according to it , undoubtedly he shall be saved ; and that there is no error in it which may necessitate or warrant any man to disturbe the peace or renounce the Communion of it . This in my opinion is all intended by Subscription , and thus much if you conceive mee not ready to subscribe , your Charity I assure you is much mistaken . 40 Your other objection against me is yet more impertinent and frivolous then the former : Vnlesse perhaps it be a just exception against a Physitian , that himself was sometimes in , and recover'd himself from that disease which he undertakes to cure ; or against a guide in a way , that at first before hee had experience himself mistook it , and after , wards , found his error and amended it . That noble writer Michael de Montai'gne , was surely of a farre different mind ; for hee will hardly allow any Physitian competent , but only for such diseases as himself had pass'd through : And a farre greater then Montai'gne , even he that said , Tu conversus confirma fratres , gives us sufficiently to understand that they which have themselves beene in such a state as to need conversion , are not thereby made incapable of , but rather engag'd and oblig'd unto , and qualified for this charitable function . 41 Neither am I guilty of that strange and preposterous zeale ( as you esteeme it ) which you impute to me ; for having been so long carelesse in removing this scandall against Protestants , and answering my own Motives , and yet now shewing such fervor in writing against others . For neither are they other Motives , but the very same for the most part with those which abused me , against which this Book which I now publish , is in a manner wholly imployed : And besides , though you Iesuits take upon you to have such large and universall intelligence of all state affaires and matters of importance , yet I hope such a contemptible matter , as an answer of mine to a litle peece of paper , may very probably have been written and escaped your observation . The truth is , I made an answer to them three yeares since and better , which perhaps might have been published , but for two reasons : one because the Motives were never publique , untill you made them so ; the other , because I was loath to proclaime to all the world so much weaknesse as I shewed , in suffering my selfe to be abus'd by such silly Sophismes ; All which proceed upon mistakes and false suppositions , which unadvisedly I took for granted ; as when I have set down the Motives in order by subsequent Answers to them I shall quickly demonstrate , and so make an end . The Motives then were these . 1 Because perpetuall visible profession , which could never be wanting to the Religion of Christ , nor any part of it , is apparently wanting to Protestant Religion , so farre as concernes the points in contestation . 2 Because Luther and his followers , separating from the Church of Rome , separated also from all Churches , pure or impure , true or false then being in the world ; upon which ground I conclude , that either Gods promises did faile of performance , if there were then no Church in the world , which held all things necessary , and nothing repugnant to Salvation ; or else that Luther and his Sectaries , separating from all Churches then in the world , and so from the true , if there were any true , were damnable Schismaticks . 3 Because , if any credit may be given to as creditable records , as any are extant , the Doctrine of Catholicks hath been frequently confirmed ; and the opposite doctrine of Protestants , confounded with supernaturall and divine Miracles . 4 Because many points of Protestant doctrine , are the damned opinions of Hereticks , condemned by the Primitive Church . 5 Because the Prophecies of the old Testament , touching the conversion of Kings and Nations to the true Religion of Christ , have been accomplished in and by the Catholicke Roman Religion , and the Professors of it ; and not by Protestant Religion , and the Professors of it . 6 Because the doctrine of the Church of Rome is conformable , and the doctrine of Protestants contrary , to the doctrine of the Fathers of the Primitive Church , even by the confession of Protestants themselves ; I meane , those fathers , who lived within the compasse of the first 600. years ; to whom Protestants themselves doe very frequently , and very confidently appeale . 7 Because the first pretended Reformers had neither extraordinary Commission from God , nor ordinary Mission from the Church , to preach Protestant Doctrine . 8 Because Luther , to preach against the Masse ( which containes the most materiall points now in controversy ) was perswaded by reasons suggested to him by the Divell himselfe , disputing with him . So himselfe professeth in his Book de Missa Privata . That all men might take heed of following him , who professeth himselfe to follow the Divell . 9 Because the Protestant cause is now , and hath been from the begining , maintained with grosse falsifications , and Calumnies ; whereof their prime Controversy writers , are notoriously , and in high degree guilty . 10 Because by denying all humane authority , either of Pope , or Councells , or Church , to determine Controversies of Faith , they have abolished all possible meanes of suppressing Heresy , or restoring unity to the Church . These are the Motives ; now my Answers to them follow brie●ly and in order . 43 To the first : God hath neither decreed nor foretold , that his true Doctrine should de facto be alwaies visibly prfessed , without any mixture of falshood . To the second : God hath neither decreed nor foretold , that there shall be alwaies a visible company of men free from all error in it selfe damnable . Neither is it alwaies of necessity Schismaticall to separate from the externall communion of a Church , though wanting nothing necessary : For if this Church suppos'd to want nothing necessary , require me to professe against my conscience , that I believe some error ▪ though never so small and innocent , which I doe not believe , and will not allow me her communion but upon this condition , In this case , the Church for requiring this condition is Schismaticall , and not I for separating from the Church . To the third : If any credit may be given to Records farre more creditable then these , the Doctrine of Protestants , that is the Bible hath been confirm'd , and the Doctrine of Papists , which is in many points plainly opposite to it , confounded with supernaturall and divine Miracles , which for number and glory outshine Popish pretended Miracles , as much as the Sunne doth an Ignis fatuus , those I mean which were wrought by our Saviour Christ and his Apostles , Now this book , by the confession of all sides confirm'd by innumerous Miracles , foretels me plainly , that in after ages great signes and wonders shall be wrought in confirmation of false doctrine , and that I am not to believe any doctrine which seemes to my understanding repugnant to the first , though an Angell from Heaven should teach it ; which were certainly as great a Miracle as any that was ever wrought in attestation of any part of the doctrine of the Church of Rome : But that true doctrine should in all ages have the testimony of Miracles , that I am no where taught ; So that I have more reason to suspect and be afraid of pretended Miracles , as signes of false doctrine , then much to regard them as certain arguments of the truth . Besides , setting aside the Bible , & the Tradition of it , there is as good story for Miracles wrought by those who lived and died in opposition to the Doctrine of the Roman Church , ( as by S. Cyprian , Colmannus , Columbanus , Aidanus and others , ) as there is for those that are pretended to be wrought by the members of that Church . Lastly , it seemes to me no strange thing that God in his Iustice should permit some true Miracles to be wrought to delude them , who have forged so many as apparently the professors of the Roman Doctrine have to abuse the World. To the fourth : All those were not a Heretiques which by Philastrius , Epiphanius , or S. Austine were put in the Catalogue of Heretiques . To the fift : Kings and Nations have been and may be converted by men of contrary Religions . To the sixt : The Doctrine of Papists , is confess'd by Papists contrary to the Fathers in many points . To the seaventh : The Pastors of a Church cannot but have authority from it , to preach against the abuses of it whether in Doctrine or practice , if there be any in it : Neither can any Christian want an ordinary commission from God to doe a necessary work of Charity after a peaceable manner , when there is no body else that can or will doe it . In extraordinary cases extraordinary courses are not to be disallowed . If some Christian Lay-man should come into a country of Infidels , & had ability to perswade them to Christianity , who would say he might not use it for want of Commission ! To the eighth : Luthers conference with the Divell might be , for ought I know , nothing but a melancholy dreame : If it were reall , the Divell might perswade Luther from the Masse , hoping by doing so to keep him constant to it : Or that others would make his diswasion from it an Argument for it , ( as we see Papists doe ) and be afraid of following Luther , as confessing himselfe to have been perswaded by the Divell . To the ninth : Illiacos intra muros peccatur & extra . Papists are more guilty of this fault then Protestants . Even this very author in this very Pamphlet hath not so many leaves as falsifications and calumnies . To the tenth : Let all men believe the Scripture and that only , and endeavour to believe it in the true sense , and require no more of others , and they shall finde this not only a better , but the only meanes to suppresse Heresy , and restore Unity . For he that believes the Scripture sincerely , and endeavours to believe it in the true sense , cannot possibly be an Heretique : And if no more then this were requir'd of any man , to make him capable of the Churches Communion , then all men so qualified , though they were different in opinion , yet notwithstanding any such difference , must be of necessity one in Communion . The Preface to the READER . GIVE me leave ( good Reader ) to informe thee by way of Preface , of three points . The first concernes D. Potters Answere to Charity Mistaken . The second relates to this Reply of mine . And the third containes some Premonitions , or Prescriptions , in case D. Potter , or any in his behalfe thinke fit to rejoyne . 2. For the first point concerning D. Potters Answere , I say in generall , reserving particulars to their proper places , that in his whole Booke he hath not so much as once truly and really fallen upon the point in question , which was , Whether both Catholiques and Protestants can be saved in their severall professions . And therefore Charity Mistaken judiciously pressing those particulars , wherein the difficulty doth precisely consist , proves in generall , that there is but one true Church ; that all Christians are obliged to harken to her ; that shee must be ever visible , and infallible ; that to separate ones selfe from her communion is Schisme ; and to dissent from her doctrine is Heresie , though it be in points never so few , or never so small in their own nature ; and therefore that the distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall , is wholy vaine , as it is applied by Protestants . These ( I say ) and some other generall grounds Charity Mistaken handles , and out of them doth cleerely evince , that any least difference in faith cannot stand with salvation on both sides : and therefore since it is apparent , that Catholiques and Protestants disagree in very many points of faith , they both cannot hope to be saved without repentance : and consequently , as we hold , that Protestancy unrepented destroies Salvation ; so must they also believe that we cannot be saved , if they judge their own Religion to be true , and ours to be false . And whosoever disguizeth this truth , is an enemy to soules , which he deceives with ungrounded false hopes of salvation , indifferent Faiths , and Religions . And this , Charity Mistaken performed exactly , according to that which appeares to have been his designe , which was not to descend to particular disputes , as D. Potter affectedly does , namely , Whether or no the Roman Church be the only true Church of Christ ; and much lesse whether Generall Councells be infallible ; whether the Pope may erre in his Decrees common to the whole Church ; whether he be above a Generall Councell ; whether all points of faith be contained in Scripture ; whether Faith be resolved into the authority of the Church , as into his last formall Object , and Motive ; and least of all did he discourse of Images , Communion under both kinds , publique service in an unknown Tongue , Seven Sacraments , Sacrifice of the Masse , Indulgences , and Index Expurgatorius : all which and divers other articles D. Potter ( as I said ) drawes by violence into his Book : and he might as well have brought in Pope Ioan , or Antichrist , or the Iewes who are permitted to live in Rome , which are common Themes for men that want better matter , as D. Potter was forced to fetch in the aforesaid Controversies , that so he might dazle the eyes , and distract the mind of the Reader , and hinder him from perceiving that in his whole Answere he uttered nothing to the purpose , and point in question : which if he had followed closely , I dare well say , he might have dispatched his whole Book in two or three sheets of paper . But the truth is , he was loath to affirme plainely , that generally both Catholiques and Protestants may be saved : and yet seeing it to be most evident that Protestants cannot pretend to have any true Church before Luther , except the Roman , and such as agreed with her , and consequently that they cannot hope for Salvation ▪ if they deny it to us ; he thought best to avoid this difficulty by confusion of language , and to fill up his Book with points which make nothing to the purpose . Wherein he is lesse excusable , because he must graunt , that those very particulars to which he digresseth , are not fundamentall errors , though it should be granted that they be errors , which indeed are Catholique verities . For since they be not fundamentall , not destructive of salvation , what imports it whether we hold them or no , for as much as concernes our possibility to be saved ? 3 In one thing only he will perhaps seeme to have touched the point in question , to wit , in his distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall : because some may thinke , that a difference in points which are not fundamentall breakes not the Vnity of Faith , and hinders not the hope of salvation in persons so disagreeing . And yet in this very distinction , he never speaks to the purpose indeed , but only saies , that there are some points so fundamentall , as that all are obliged to know and believe them explicitely , but never tells us , whether there be any other points of faith , which a man may deny or disbelieve , though they be sufficiently presented to his understanding , as truths revealed , or testified by almighty God ; which was the only thing in question . For if it be damnable , as certainly it is , to deny , or disbelieve any one truth witnessed by almighty God , though the thing be not in it self of any great consequence , or moment ; and since of two disagreeing in matters of faith , one must necessarily deny some such truth ; it clearly followes that amongst men of different Faiths , or Religions , one only can be saved , though their difference consist of divers , or but even one point , which is not in his own nature fundamentall , as I declare at large in divers places of my first part . So that it is cleere , D. Potter even in this his last refuge and distinction , never comes to the point in question , to say nothing that he himselfe doth quite overthrow it , and plainly contradict his whole designe , as I shew in the third Chapter of my first Part. 4 And as for D. Potters manner of handling those very points , which are utterly beside the purpose , it consists only in bringing vulgar mean objections , which have been answered a thousand times , yea , and some of them are cleerely answered even in Charity Mistaken ; but he takes no knowledge at all af any such answeres , and much lesse doth he apply himselfe to confute them . He alleadgeth also Authors with so great corruption and fraud , as I would not have believed , if I had not found it by cleere , and frequent experience . In his second Edition , he hath indeed left out one or two grosse corruptions , amongst many others no lesse notorious , having as it seemes been warned by some friends , that they could not stand with his credit : but even in this his second Edition he retracts them not at all , nor declares that he was mistaken in the First , and so his reader of the first Edition shall ever be deceived by him , though withall he read the Second . For preventing of which inconvenience , I have thought it necessary to take notice of them , and to discover them in my Reply . 5. And for conclusion of this point I will only say , that D. Potter might well have spared his paines if he had ingeniously acknowledged , where the whole substance , yea and sometime the very words and phrases of his book may be found in farre briefer manner , namely , in a Sermon of D. Vshers preached before our late soveraigne Lord King Iames the 20. of Iune 1624. at Wansted , containing A Declaration of the Vniversality of the Church of Christ , and the Vnity of Faith , professed therein , which Sermon having been roundly and wittily confuted by a Catholike Divine , under the name of Paulus Veridicus , within the compasse of about 4. sheets of Paper , D. Potters Answere to Charity Mistaken was in effect confuted before it appeared . And this may suffice for a generall Censure of his Answere to Charity Mistaken . 6 For the second , touching my Reply : if you wonder at the Bulke thereof , compared either with Charity Mistaken , or D Potters Answere , I desire you to consider well of what now I am about to say , and then I hope you will see , that I was cast upon a meere necessity of not being so short , as otherwise might peradventure be desired . Charity Mistaken is short I grant , and yet very ●ull , and large , for as much as concerned his designe , which you see was not to treat of particular Controversies in Religion , no not so much as to debate , whether or no the Roman Church be the only true Church of Christ , which indeed would have required a larger Volume , as I have understood there was one then comming forth , if it had not bee prevented by the Treatise of Charity Mistaken , which seemed to make the other intended worke a little lesse seasonable at that time . But Charity Mistaken proves only in Generall out of some Vniversall Principles , well backed and made good by choice & solid authorities , that of two disagreeing in points of Faith , one only without repentance can be saved ; which ayme exacted no great bulk . And as for D. Potters Answere , even that also is not so short as it may seem . For if his marginall notes printed in a small letter were transferred into the Text , the Book would appear to be of some bulk : though indeed it might have been very short , if he had kept himselfe to the point treated by Charity Mistaken , as shall be declared anon . But contrarily , because the question debated betwixt Charity Mistaken and D. Potter , is a point of the highest consequence that can be imagined , and in regard that there is not a more pernitious Heresy , or rather indeed ground of Atheisme , then a perswasion that men of different Religions may be saved , if otherwise forsooth they lead a kind of civill and morall life : I conceaved , that my chief endeavour was not to be employed in answering D Potter , but that it was necessary to handle the Question it selfe somewhat at large , and not only to prove in generall , that both Protestants and Catholikes cannot be saved ; but to shew also , that Salvation cannot be hoped for out of the Catholique Roman Church ; and yet withall , not to omit to answere all the particulars of D. Potters Book which may any way import To this end I thought it fit , to divide my Reply into two Parts ; in the formet whereof , the main question is handled by a continued discourse without stepping aside to confute the particulars of D. Potters Answere , though yet so , as that even in this first Part , I omit not to answere such passages of his , as I find directly in my way , and naturally belong to the points whereof I treat : and in the second Part I answere D. Potters Treanse , Section by Section , as they lye in order . I heer therefore intreat the Reader , that if heartily he desire satisfaction in this so important question , he doe not content himselfe with that which I say to Doctor Potter in my second Part , but that he take the First before him , eyther all , or at least so much as may serve most to his purpose of being satisfied in those doubts which presse him most . For which purpose I have caused a Table of the Chapters of the first Part , together with their Titles and Arguments , to be prefixed before my Reply . 7. This was then a chiefe reason why I could not be very short . But yet there wanted not also divers other causes of the same effect . For there are so severall kinds of Protestants through the difference of Tenets which they hold , as that if a man convince but one kind of them , the rest will conceive themselves to be as truly unsatisfied , and even unspoken to , as if nothing had been said therein at all . As for example , some hold a necessity of a perpetuall visible Church , and some hold no such necessity . Some of them hold it necessary to be able to prove it distinct from ours ; and others , that their businesse is dispatched when they have proved ours to have been alwaies visible : for then they will conceive that theirs hath been so : & the like may be truly said of very many other particulars . Besides it is D. Potters fashion , ( wherein as he is very far from being the first , so I pray God he prove the last of that humour ) to touch in a word many triviall old objections , which if they be not all answered , it will , and must serve the turne , to make the more ignorant sort of men believe , and brag , as if some maine unanswerable matter had been subtily and purposely omitted ; and every body knowes that some objection may be very plausibly made in few words , the cleere and solid answere whereof will require more leaves of paper the● one . And in particular D. Potter doth couch his corruption of Authors within the compasse of so few lines , and with so great confusednesse and fraud , that it requires much time , paines , and paper to open them so distinctly , as that they may appear to every mans eye . It was also necessary to shew , what D. Potter omits in Charity Mistaken , and the importance of what is omitted , and sometimes to set down the very words themselves that are omitted , all which could not but adde to the quantity of my Reply . And as for the quality thereof , I desire thee ( good Reader ) to believe , that whereas nothing is more necessary then books for answering of books : yet I was so ill furnished in this kind , that I was forced to omit the examination of divers Authors cited by D. Potter , meerely upon necessity ; though I did very well perceive by most apparant circumstances , that I must probably have been sure inough to find them plainly misalleadged , and much wronged : and for the few which are examined , there hath not wanted some difficulties to doe it . For the times are not for all men alike ; and D. Potter hath much advantage therein . But truth is truth , and will ever be able to justify it self in the midst of all difficulties which may occurre . As for me , when I alledge Protestant Writers as well domesticall as forraine , I willingly and thankfully acknowledge my selfe obliged for divers of them to the author of the Book entituled , The Protestants Apology for the Roman Church , who calls himselfe Iohn Brerely , whose care , exactnesse , and fidelity is so extraordinary great , as that he doth not only cite the Bookes , but the Editions also , with the place and time of their printing , yea and often the very page , and line where the words are to be had . And if you happen not to finde what he cites , yet suspend your judgment , till you have read the corrections placed at the end of his book ; though it be also true , that after all diligence and faithfulnesse on his behalfe , it was not in his power to amend all the faults of the print : in which prints we have difficulty enough for many evident reasons , which must needs occur to any prudent man. 8. And for asmuch as concernes the manner of my Reply , I have procured to doe it without all bitternesse , or gall of invective words , both for as much as may import either Protestants in generall , or D. Potters person in particular ; unles , for example , he will call it bitternesse for me to terme a grosse impertinency , a sleight , or a corruption , by those very names , without which I doe not know how to expresse the things : and yet therein I can truly affirme that I have studied how to deliver them in the most moderate way , to the end I might give as little offence as possibly I could , without betraying the Cause . And if any unfit phrase may peradventure have escaped my pen ( as I hope none hath ) it was beside , and against my intention , though I must needs professe , that D. Potter gives so many and so just occasions of being round with him , as that perhaps some will judge me to have been rather remisse , then moderate . But since in the very title of my Reply I professe to maintaine Charity , I conceive that the excesse will be more excusable amongst all kinds of men , if it fall to be in mildnesse , then if it had appeared in too much zeale . And if D. Potter have a mind to charge me with ignorance or any thing of that nature , I can , and will ease him of that labour , by acknowledging in my selfe as many and more personall defects , then he can heap upon me . Truth only and syncerity I so much valew and professe , as that he shall never be able to prove the contrary in any one least passage or particle against me . 9. In the third and last place , I have thought fit to expresse my selfe thus . If D. Potter , or any other resolve to answere my Reply ▪ I desire that he will observe some things which may tend to his owne reputation , the saving of my unnecessary paines , and especially to the greater advantage of truth . I wish then that he would be carefull to consider , wherein the point of every difficulty consists , and not impertinently to shoot at Rovers , and affectedly mistake one thing for another . As for example , to what purpose ( for as much as concernes the question betweene D. Potter and Charity Mistaken ) doth he so often and seriously labour to proue , that faith is not resolved into the authority of the Church , as into the formall Obiect and Motive thereof ? Or that all points of Faith are contained in Scripture ? Or that the Church cannot make new Articles of Faith ? Or that the Church of Rome , as it signifies that particular Church or Diocesse , is not all one with the universall Church ? Or that the Pope as a private Doctor may erre ? With many other such points as will easily appeare in their proper places . It will also be necessary for him not to put certaine Doctrines upon us , from which he knowes we disclaime as much as himselfe . 10 I must in like manner intreat him not to recite my reasons and discourses by halfes , but to set them down faithfully and entirely , for as much as in very deed concernes the whole substance of the thing in question ; because the want sometime of one word , may chance to make void , or lessen the force of the whole argument . And I am the more solicitous about giving this particular caveat , because I finde how ill he hath complied with the promise which he made in his Preface to the Reader , not to omit without answere any one thing of moment in all the discourse of Charity Mistaken . Neither will this course be a cause that his Reioynder grow too large , but it will be occasion of brevity to him , and free me also from the paines of setting downe all the words which he omits , and himselfe of demonstrating that what he omitted was not materiall . Nay I will assure him , that if he keep himselfe to the point of every difficulty , and not weary the Reader , and overcharge his margent , with unnecessary quotations of Authors in Greek and Latin , and sometime also in Italian and French , together with proverbs , sentences of Poets , and such grammaticall stuffe , nor affect to cite a multitude of our Catholique Schoole divines to no purpose at all ; his Book will not exceed a competent size , nor will any man in reason be offended with that length which is regulated by necessity . Againe before he come to set downe his answere , or propose his Arguments , let him consider very well what may be replied , and whether his own objections may not be retorted against himselfe , as the Reader will perceiue to haue hapned often to his disadvantage in my Reply against him . But especially I expect , and Truth it selfe exacts at his hand , that he speak cleerly and distinctly , and not seek to walk in darknesse , so to delude and deceiue his Reader , now saying , and then denying , and alwaies speaking with such ambiguity , as that his greatest care may seeme to consist in a certaine art to find a shift , as his occasions might chance , either now , or heereafter to require , and as he might fall out to be urged by diversity of severall arguments . And to the end it may appear , that I deale plainely , as I would haue him also doe , I desire that he declare himselfe concerning these points . 11 First , whether our Saviour Christ haue not alwaies had , and be not ever to haue a visible true Church on earth : and whether the contrary doctrine be not a damnable Heresy . 12 Secondly , what visible Church there was before Luther , disagreeing from the Roman Church , and agreeing with the pretended Church of Protestants . 13 Thirdly , Since he will be forced to grant that there cā be assigned no visible true Church of Christ , distinct from the Church of Rome , and such Churches as agreed with her when Luther first appeared , whether it doe not follow that shee hath not erred fundamentally ; because every such errour destroies the nature and being of the Church , and so our Saviour Christ should haue had no visible Church on earth . 14 Fourthly , if the Roman Church did not fall into any fundamentall errour , let him tell us how it can be damnable to liue in her Communion , or to maintaine errours , which are knowne and confessed , not to be fundamentall , to damnable . 15 Fiftly , if her Errours were not damnable , nor did exclude salvation , how can they be excused from Schisme , who forsooke her Communion upon pretence of errours , which were not damnable . 16 Sixtly , if D. Potter haue a minde to say , that her Errours are damnable , or fundamentall , let him doe us so much charity , as to tell us in particular what those fundamentall errours be . But he must still remember ( and my selfe must be excused , for repeating it ) that if he say the Roman Church erred fundamentally , he will not be able to shew , that Christ our Lord had any visible Church on earth , when Luther appeared : and let him tell us how Protestants had , or can haue any Church which was universall , and extended her selfe to all ages , if once he grant , that the Roman Church ceased to be the true Church of Christ ; and consequently how they can hope for Salvation , if they deny it to us . 17 Seaventhly , whether any one Errour maintained against any one Truth , though never so small in it selfe , yet sufficiently propounded as testified or revealed by almighty God , doe not destroy the Nature and Vnity of Faith , or at least is not a grievous offence excluding Salvation . 18 Eightly , if this be so , how can Lutherans , Calvinists , Zuinglions , and all the rest of disagreeing Protestants , hope for salvation , since it is manifest that some of them must needs erre against some such truth as is testified by almighty God , either fundamentall , or at least not fundamentall . 19 Ninthly , we constantly urge , and require to haue a particular Catalogue of such points as he calls fundamentall ▪ A Catalogue , I say , in particular , and not only some generall definition , or description , wherein Protestants may perhaps agree , though wee see that they differ when they come to assigne what points in particular be fundamentall ; and yet upon such a particular Catalogue much depends : as for example in particular , Whether or no a man doe not erre in some point fundamentall or necessary to salvation ; and whether or no Lutherans , Calvinists , and the rest doe disagree in fundamentalls , which if they doe , the same Heaven cannot receiue them all . 20 Tenthly , and lastly , I desire that in answering to these points , ●he would let us knowe distinctly , what is the doctrine of the Protestant English Church concerning them , and what he utters only as his owne private opinion . 21 These are the Questions which for the present I finde it fit and necessary for me to aske of D. Potter , or any other who will defend his cause , or impugne ours . And it will be in vaine to speake vainely , and to tell me , that a Foole may aske mere questions in an houre , then a wise man can answer in a yeare ; with such idle Proverbs as that . For I aske but such questions as for which he giues occasion in his Book , and where he declares not himselfe but after so ambiguous and confused a manner , as that ▪ Truth it selfe can scarce tell how to convince him so , but that with ignorant and ill-judging men he will seeme to haue somewhat left to say for himselfe , though Papists ( as he calls them ) and Puritans should presse him contrary waies at the same time : and these questions concerne things also of high importance , as whereupon the knowledge of Gods Church , and true Religion , and consequently Sa●●ation of the soule depends . And now because hee shall not taxe me with being like those men in the Gospell , whom our blessed Lord and Saviour charged with laying heavy burdens upon other mens shoulders , who yet would not touch them with their finger ▪ I oblige my selfe to answer upon any demand of his , both to all these Questions , if he finde that I haue not done it already , and to any other , concerning matter of faith that he shall aske . And I will tell him very plainely , what is Catholique doctrine , and what is not , that is , what is defined or what is not defined , and rests but in discussion among Divines . 22 And it will be here expected , that he performe these things , as a man who professeth learning should doe , not flying from questions which concerne things as they are considered in their owne nature , to accidentall , or rare circumstances of ignorance , incapacity , want of meanes to be instructed , erroneous conscience , and the like , which being very various and different , cannot bee well comprehended under any generall Rule . But in delivering generall doctrines we must consider things as they be ex natura rei , or per. se loquendo ( as Divines speak ) that is , according to their natures , if all circumstances concu●re proportionable thereunto . As for example some may for a time haue invincible ignorance , even of some fundamentall article of faith , through want of capacity , instruction , or the like , and so not offend either in such ignorance or errour , and yet we must absolutely say , that errour in any one fundamentall point is damnable , because so it is , if we consider things in themselues , abstracting from accidentall circumstances in particular persons : as contrarily if some man judge some act of vertue , or some indifferent action to be a sinne , in him it is a sinne indeed , by reason of his erroneous conscience ; and yet we ought not to say absolutely , that vertuous , or indifferent actions are sinnes : and in all sciences we must distinguish the generall Rules from their particular Exceptions . And therefore when , for example , he answers to our demand , whether he hold that Catholiques may be saved , or whether their pretended errours be fundamentall and damnable , he is not to change the state of the question , and haue recourse to Ignorance , and the like , but to answer concerning the errours being considered what they are apt to be in themselues , and as they are neither increased nor diminished , by accidental circumstances . 23 And the like I say of all the other points , to which I once againe desire an answere without any of these , or the like ambiguous termes , in some sort , in some sense , in some degree , which may be explicated afterward as strictly or largely as may best serue his turne ; but let him tell vs roundly and particularly , in what sort , in what sense , in what degree he understands those , & the like obscure mincing phrases . If he proceed solidly after this manner , and not by way of meere words , more like a Preacher to a vulgar Auditor , then like a learned man with a pen in his hand , thy patience shall be the lesse abused , and truth will also receiue more right . And since we haue already laid the grounds of the question , much may be said hereafter in few , words , if ( as I said ) he keep close to the reall point of every difficulty without wandring into impertinent disputes , multiplying vulgar and threed-bare objections and arguments , or labouring to prove what no man denies , or making a vaine oftentation by citing a number of Schoolemen , which every ●uny brought up in Schooles is able to doe ; and if he cite his Authors with such sincerity , as no time need be spent in opening his corruptions , and finally if he set himselfe a worke with this consideration , that we are to giue a most strict accompt to a most just , and unpartiall Iudge , of every period , line , and word that passeth under our pen. For if at the latter day we shall be arraigned for every idle word which is spoken , so much more will that be done for every idle word which is written , as the deliberation wherewith it passeth makes a man guilty of more malice , and as the importance of the matter which is treated of in bookes concerning true faith and religion , without which no Soule can be saved , makes a mans Errours more materiall , then they would be , if question were but of toyes . The Answere to the PREFACE . TO the First , and Second . If beginings be ominous ( as they say they are , ) D. Potter hath cause to look for great store of uningenuous dealing from you ; the very first words you speak of him vz. That he hath not so much as once truly and really fallen upon the point in question , being a most unjust and immodest imputation . 2 For first , the point in question , was not , that which you pretend , Whether both Papists and Protestants can be saved in their severall Professions ? But , Whether you may without uncharitablenesse affirme that Protestancy unrepented destroyes Salvation ? And that this is the very question is most apparent and unquestionable , both from the title of Charity Mistaken , and from the Arguments of the three first Chapters of it , and from the title of your own Reply . And therefore if D. Potter had joyned issue with his Adversary only thus farre , and not medling at all with Papists , but leaving them to stand or fall to their own master , had prou'd Protestants living and dying so capable of Salvation , I cannot see how it could justly be charged upon him , that he had not once truly and really fallen upon the point in Question . Neither may it be said that your Question here and mine , are in effect the same , seeing it is very possible that the true Answere to the one might have been Affirmative , and to the other Negative . For there is no incongruity but it may be true That You and We cannot both be saved : And yet as true , That without uncharitablenesse you cannot pronounce us damned . For all ungrounded and unwarrantable sentencing mento damnation , is either in a propriety of speech uncharitable , or else ( which for my purpose is all one , ) it is that which Protestants mean , when they say , Papists for damning them are uncharitable . And therefore though the Author of C. M. had prov'd as strongly as he hath done weakly , that one Heaven could not receive Protestants and Papists both , yet certainly , it was very hastily and unwarrantably , & therefore uncharitably concluded , that Protestants were the part that was to be excluded . As , though Iewes and Christians cannot both be saved , yet a Iew cannot justly , and therefore not charitably pronounce a Christian damned . 3 But then secondly , to shew your dealing with him very injurious ; I say he doth speak to this very Question very largely , and very effectually ; as by confronting his worke and Charity Mist. together , will presently appear . Charity M. proves you say in generall , That there is but one Church . D. Potter tels him , His labour is lost in proving the unity of the Catholique Church , whereof there is no doubt or controversy : & herein I hope you will grant he answeres right & to the purpose . C. M. proves ( you say ) secondly , That all Christians are obliged to harken to the Church . D. Potter answeres , It is true : yet not absolutely in all things , but only when she commands those things which God doth not countermand . And this also I hope is to his purpose , though not to yours . C. M. proves , you say thirdly , That the Church must be ever visible and infallible . For her Visibility , D. Potter denyes it not ; and as for her Infallibility , he grants it in Fundamentalls but not in Superstructures . C. M. proves you say fourthly , That to separate ones selfe from the Churches Communion , is schisme . D. Potter grants it , with this exception , unlesse there be necessary cause to doe so ; unlesse the conditions of her Communion be apparently unlawfull . C. M. proves , you say lastly , That to dissent from her doctrine is heresy , though it be in points never so few , and never so small , and therefore that the distinction of points fundamentall and unfundamentall , as it is applyed by Protestants is wholy vaine . This D. Potter denyes , shewes the Reasons , brought for it , weak and unconcluding ; proves the contrary by reasons unanswerable : and therefore that The distinction of points into fundamentall and not fundamentall , as it is applied by Protestants , is very good . Vpon these grounds you say , C. M. cleerely evinces That any least difference in faith cannot stand with salvation , and therefore seeing Catholiques and Protestants disagree in very many points of faith , they both cannot hope to be saved without Repentance , you must mean , without an explicit and particular repentance , and dereliction of their errors ; for so C. M. hath declared himselfe p. 14. where he hath these words , We may safely say that a man who lives in Protestancy , and who is so farre from Repenting it , as that he will not so much as acknowledge it to be a sinne , though he be sufficiently enform'd thereof , &c. From whence it is evident , that in his judgement there can be no repentance of an errour , without acknowledging it to be a sinne : And to this D. Potter justly opposes : That both sides , by the confession of both sides , agree in more points then are simply and indispensably necessary to Salvation , and differ only in such as are not precisely necessary : That it is very possible , a man may dye in errour , and yet dye with Repentance , as for all his sinnes of ignorance ▪ so in that number , for the errours in which he dies : with a repentance though not explicite and particular which is not simply required , yet implicite and generall which is sufficient : so that he cannot but hope considering the goodnesse of God , that the truth 's retained on both sides , especially those of the necessity of repentance from dead workes and faith in Iesus Christ , if they be put in practise , may be an antidote against the errors held on either side ; to such he meanes , & saies , as being diligent in seeking truth , and desirous to find it , yet misse of it through humane frailty and dye in errour . If you will but attentively consider & compare the undertaking of C. M. and D. Potters performance in all these points , I hope you will be so ingenuous as to acknowledge , that you have injurd him much in imputing tergiversation to him , and pretending that through his whole book he hath not once truly and really fallen upon the point in Question . Neither may you or C. M. conclude him from hence ( as covertly you doe , ) An enemy to soules by deceiving them with ungrounded false hopes of Salvation ; seeing the hope of salvation cannot be ungrounded , which requires and supposes beliefe and practise of all things absolutely necessary unto salvation , and repentance of those sinnes and errours which we fall into by humane frailty : Nor a friend to indifferency in Religions , seeing he gives them only hope of pardon of Errors who are desirous , and according to the proportion of their opportunities and abilities industrious to find the truth , or at least truly repentant , that they have not been so . Which doctrine is very fit to excite men to a constant and impartiall search of truth , and very farre from teaching them that it is indifferent what Religion they are of , and without all controversy very honourable to the goodnesse of God , with which how it can consist , not to be satisfied with his servants true endeavours to know his will and doe it , without full and exact performance , I leave it to you and all good men to judge . 4 As little Iustice me thinkes you shew , in quarrelling with him for descending to the particular disputes here mentioned by you . For to say nothing that many of these Questions are immediatly and directly pertinent to the businesse in hand , as the 1. 2. 3. 5. 6. and all of them fall in of themselves into the stream of his discourse , and are not drawn in by him , and besides are touched for the most part , rather then handled ; to say nothing of all this , you know right well , if he conclude you erroneous in any one of all these , be it but in the Communion in one kind , or the Language of your service ; the infallibility of your Church is evidently overthrown : And this being done , I hope there will be no such necessity of hearkning to her in all things : It will be very possible to seperate from her communion in some things , without schisme , and from her doctrine so farre as it is erroneous without heresy : Then all that she proposes will not be , eo ipso , fundamentall , because shee proposes it : and so presently all Charity Mistaken will vanish into smoak , and clouds and nothing . 5 You say he was loath to affirme plainly , that generally both Catholiques & Protestants may be saved : which yet is manifest he doth affirme plainly , of Protestants throughout his book ; & of erring Papists that have syncerely sought the Truth and failed of it , and dye with a generall repentance : p. 77. 78. And yet you deceive your selfe if you conceive he had any other necessity to doe so , but only that he thought it true . For we may and doe pretend that before Luther there were many true Churches , besides the Roman , which agreed not with her : in particular , The greek Church . So that what you say is evidently true , is indeed evidently false . Besides if he had had any necessity to make use of you in this matter , he needed not for this end to say that now in your Church Salvation may be had ; but onely that before Luthers time it might be : Then when your meanes of knowing the Truth were not so great , and when your ignorance might be more invincible , and therefore more excusable . So that you may see if you please , it is not for ends , but for the loue of truth , that we are thus charitable to you . 6 Neither is it materiall that these particulars he speakes against , are not fundamentall errours ; for though they be not destructiue of salvation , yet the convincing of them , may be , and is destructiue enough of his Adversaries assertion : and if you be the man I take you for , you will not deny they are so . For certainly no Consequence can be more palpable then this ; The Church of Rome doth erre in this or that , therefore it is not infallible . And this perhaps you perceiu'd your selfe ; & therefore demanded not , Since they be not fundamentall , what imports it whether we hold them or no , simply : But , for as much as concernes our possibility to be saved . As if we were not bound by the loue of God & the loue of truth to be zealous in the defence of all Truths , that are any way profitable , though not simply necessary to salvation . Or as if any good man could satisfie his conscience without being so affected and resolv'd . Our Saviour himselfe having assur'd us , a That hee that shall breake one of his least Commandements ( some whereof you pretend are concerning veniall sinnes , and consequently the keeping of them not necessary to salvation ) and shall so teach men , shall be called the least in the kingdome of Heaven . 7 But then it imports very much , though not for the possibilitie that you may be saved , yet for the probabilitie that you will be so : because the holding of these errours , though it did not merit , might yet occasion damnation . As the doctrine of Indulgences may take away the feare of Purgatory , and the doctrine of Purgatorie the feare of Hell ; as you well knowe it does too frequently . So that though a godly man might be saved with these errours , yet by meanes of them , many are made vicious and so damn'd . By them I say , though not for them . No godly Lay-man who is verily perswaded that there is neither impietie nor superstition in the use of your Latine service , shall be damn'd , I hope , for being present at it ; yet the want of that devotion which the frequent hearing the Offices understood , might happily beget in them , the want of that instruction and edification which it might afford them , may very probably hinder the salvation of many which otherwise might haue been saved . Besides , though the matter of an Errour may bee onely something profitable , not necessary , yet the neglect of it may be a damnable sinne . As not to regard veniall sinnes is in the doctrine of your Schooles , mortall . Lastly , as veniall sinnes , you say , dispose men to mortall ; so the erring from some profitable , though lesser truth , may dispose a man to errour in greater matters . As for example : The Beleife of the Popes infallibility is , I hope , not unpardonably damnable to every one that holds it ; yet if it be a falsehood ( as most certainely it is ) it puts a man into a very congruous disposition to beleiue Antichrist , if he should chance to get into that See. 8 To the Third . In his distinctions of points fundamentall and not fundamentall , he may seeme , you say , to haue touched the point , but does not so indeed . Because though he saies there are some points so fundamentall , as that all are oblig'd to belieue them explicitely , yet he tells you not , whether a man may disbeleiue any other points of faith , which are sufficiently presented to his understanding , as Truths revealed by Almighty God. Touching which matter of Sufficient Proposall , I beseech you to come out of the Clouds , and tell us roundly and plainely , what you meane by Points of faith sufficiently propounded to a mans understanding , as Truths revealed by God. Perhaps you meane such , as the person to whom they are propos'd , understands sufficiently to be truths revealed by God. But how then can he possibly choose but belieue them ? Or how is it not an apparent contradiction , that a man should disbelieue what himselfe understands to be a Truth ; or any Christian what he understands or but belieues to be testified by God ? Dr Potter might well thinke it superfluous to tell you This is damnable ; because indeed it is impossible . And yet one may very well think , by your saying , as you doe hereafter , That the impietie of heresie consists in calling Gods truth in question , that this should be your meaning . Or doe you esteeme all those things sufficiently presented to his understanding as Divine truths , which by you , or any other man , or any company of men whatsoever , are declared to him to be so ? I hope you will not say so : For this were to oblige a man to belieue all the Churches , and all the men in the world , whensoever they pretend to propose divine Revelations . D. Potter , I assure you from him , would never haue told you this neither . Or doe you meane by sufficiently propounded as Divine Truths , all that your Church propounds for such ? That you may not neither ; For the Question betweene us is this ; Whether your Churches Proposition be a sufficient Proposition ? And therefore to suppose this , is to suppose the question ; which you knowe in Reasoning is alwaies a fault . Or Lastly , doe you mean ( for I knowe not else what possibly you can meane , ) by sufficiently presented to his vnderstanding as revealed by God ; that which all things considered , is so propos'd to him , that he might and should and would belieue it to be true and revealed by God , were it not for some voluntary and avoidable fault of his owne that interposeth it selfe betweene his understanding and the truth presented to it ? This is the best construction that I can make of your words ; and if you speake of truths thus propos'd , and rejected , let it be as damnable , as you please , to deny or disbelieue them . But then I cannot but be amaz'd to heare you say , That D. Potter never tells you whether there be any other points of faith , besides those which we are bound to belieue explicitely , which a man may deny or disbelieue , though they be sufficiently presented to his understanding as truths revealed or testified by Almighty God ; seeing the light it selfe is not more cleare then D. Potters Declaration of himselfe for the Negatiue in this Question . p. 245. 246. 247. 248. 249. 250. of his Book . Where he entreats at large of this very Argument , beginning his discourse thus . It seemes fundamentall to the faith , and for the salvation of every member of the Church , that he acknowledge and belieue all such points of faith , as whereof he may be convinced that they belong to the doctrine of Iesus Christ. To this conviction he requires three things . Cleare Revelation ; Sufficient Proposition , and Capacity & understanding in the hearer . For want of cleare Revelation , he frees the Church before Christ & the Disciples of Christ from any damnable errour , though they believed not those things which he that should now deny were no Christian. To sufficient Proposition , he requires two things . 1. That the points be perspicuously laid open in themselues . 2. So forcibly , as may serue to remoue reasonable doubts to the contrary , and to satisfie a teachable minde concerning it , against the principles in which he hath been bred to the contrary . This Proposition he saies is not limited to the Pope or Church , but extended to all meanes whatsoever , by which a man may be convinced in conscience , that the matter proposed is divine Revelation ; which he professes to be done sufficiently , not only when his conscience doth expresly beare witnesse to the truth ; but when it would doe so , if it were not choaked , and blinded by some unruly and unmortified lust in the will. The difference being not great between him that is wilfully blind , & him that knowingly gainesaieth the Truth . The third thing he requires is Capacity and Abilitie to apprehend the Proposall , and the Reasons of it : the want whereof excuseth fooles and madmen , &c. But where there is no such impediment , and the will of God is sufficiently propounded , there ( saith hee ) hee that opposeth is convinced of errour ; and he who is thus convinced is an Heretique : and heresie is a work of the Flesh which excludeth from salvation , ( he meanes without Repentance , ) And hence it followeth , that it is fundamentall to a Christians faith , and necessary for his salvation , that he belieue all revealed truths of God , whereof he may be convinced that they are from God. This is the Conclusion of Dr Potters discourse ; many passages whereof you take notice of in your subsequent disputations , and make your advantage of them . And therefore I cannot but say againe , that it amazeth me to heare you say , that he declines this Question and never tells you whether or no there bee any other points of faith , which being sufficiently propounded as divine Revelations may be denied and disbelieved . Hee tells you plainely there are none such : and therefore you cannot say , that he tels you not whether there be any such . Againe , it is almost as strange to mee , why you should say , this was the only thing in question , Whether a man may deny or disbelieue any point of faith , sufficiently presented to his understanding as a truth revealed by God. For to say that any thing is a thing in question , me thinks at the first hearing of the words , imports , that it is by some affirm'd , and deni'd by others . Now you affirme I grant , but what Protestant ever denied , that it was a sinne to giue God the lye ? Which is the first and most obvious sense of these words . Or which of them ever doubted , that to disbelieue is then a fault , when the matter is so proposed to a man , that he might and should , and were it not for his owne fault , would beleiue it ? Certainly he that questions either of these , justly deserues to haue his wits call'd in question . Produce any one Protestant that ever did so , and I will giue you leaue to say it is the only thing in question . But then I must tell you , that your ensuing Argument , viz : To deny a truth witnessed by God is damnable , But of two that disagree one must of necessity deny some such truth , Therefore one only can be saved ; is built upon a ground cleane different from this postulate . For though it be alwaies a fault to deny what either I doe know , or should knowe to be testified by God ; yet that which by a cleanly conveyance you put in the place hereof , To deny a truth witnessed by God simply , without the circumstance of being knowne or sufficiently proposed , is so farre from being certainely damnable , that it may be many times done without any the least fault at all . As if God should testifie something to a man in the Indies , I that had no assurance of this testification should not be oblig'd to beleiue it . For in such cases the Rule of the Law has place , Idem est non esse & non apparere : not to be at all and not to appeare to me , is to me all one . If I had not come and spoken unto you ( saith our Saviour ) you had had no sinne ? 10 As little necessitie is there for that which followes : That of two disagreeing in a matter of faith one must deny some such truth . Whether by [ such ] you understand , Testified at all by God ; or testified and sufficiently propounded . For it is very possible the matter in controversie may be such a thing wherein God hath not at all declare himselfe , or not so fully and clearely as to oblige all men to hold one way ; and yet be so overvalued by the parties in variance , as to bee esteemed a matter of faith , and one of those things of which our Saviour saies ; He that beleiveth not shall be damn'd . Who sees not that it is possible two Churches may excommunicate and damne each other for keeping Christmasse tenne daies sooner or later ; as well as Victor excommunicated the Churches of Asia , for differing from him about Easter day ? And yet I beleiue you will confesse , that God had not then declared himselfe about Easter ; nor hath now about Christmasse . Anciently some good Catholique Bishops excommunicated and damned others for holding there were Antipodes : and in this question I would faine know on which side was the sufficient proposall . The contra-Remonstrants differ from the Remonstrants about the point of predetermination as a matter of faith : I would knowe in this thing also , which way God hath declar'd himselfe ; whether for Predetermination or against it . Stephen Bishop of Rome held it as a matter of faith & Apostolique tradition , That Heretiques gaue true Baptisme : Others there were , and they as good Catholiques as hee , that held that this was neither matter of Faith nor matter of Truth . Iustin Martyr and Irenaeus held the doctrine of the Millenaries as a matter of faith : and though Iustin Martyr deny it , yet you , I hope , will affirme , that some good Christians held the contrary . St Augustine , I am sure , held the communicating of Infants as much Apostolique tradition , as the Baptising of them : whether the Bishop and the Church of Rome of his time , held so too , or held otherwise , I desire you to determine . But , sure I am , the Church of Rome at this present holds the contrary . The same S. Austin held it no matter of faith that the Bishops of Rome were Iudges of Appeales from all parts of the Church Catholique , no not in Major causes and Major Persons : whether the Bishop or Church of Rome did then hold the contrary doe you resolve me ; but now I am resolv'd they doe so . In all these differences , the point in question is esteem'd and propos'd by one side at least as a matter of faith , and by the other rejected as not so : and either this is to disagree in matters of faith , or you will have no meanes to shew that we doe disagree . Now then to shew you how weak and sandy the foundation is , on which the whole fabrick both of your Book and Church depends , answer mee briefly to this Dilemma . Eyther in these oppositions one of the opposite Parts err'd damnably , and denyed Gods truth sufficiently propounded , or they did not . If they did , then they which doe deny Gods truth sufficiently propounded may goe to heaven ; and then you are rash and uncharitable in excluding us , though we were guilty of this fault . If not , then there is no such necessity , that of two disagreeing about a matter of faith , one should deny Gods truth sufficiently propounded . And so the Major and Minor of your Argument , are prov'd false . Yet , though they were as true as Gospell , and as evident as Mathematicall Principles , the conclusion ( so impertinent is it to the Premises ) might still be false . For that which naturally issues from these propositions is not . Therefore one only can be saved : But , Therefore one of them does something that is damnable . But with what Logick or what Charity you can inferre either as the immediat production of the former premises , or as a Corollary from this conclusion , Therefore one only can be saved , I doe not understand ; unlesse you will pretend that this consequence is good , such a one doth something damnable , therefore he shall certainly be damned : which whether it be not to overthrow the Article of our Faith , which promises remission of sinnes upon repentance , and consequently to ruine the Gospell of Christ , I leave it to the Pope and the Cardinalls to determine . For if against this it be alleadged , that no man can repent of the sinne wherein he dies : This muche I have already stopped , by shewing that if it be a sinne of Ignorance , this is no way incongruous . 11 To the fourth . You proceed in sleighting and disgracing your Adversary , Pretending his objections are mean and vulgar , and such as have been answered a thousand times . But if your cause were good , these Arts would be needlesse . For though some of his objections have been often shifted by men * that make a profession of devising shifts and evasions to save themselves and their Religion from the pressure of truth , by men that are resolv'd they will say something , though they can say nothing to purpose ; yet I doubt not to make it appear , that neither by others have they beene truly and really satisfied ; and that the best Answere you give them , is to call them Mean and vulgar objections . 12 To the Fift . But this paines might have been spared : For the substance of his discourse is in a Sermon of D. Vshers , and confuted four yeares agoe by Paulus Veridicus . It seemes then the substance of your Reply is in Paulus Veridicus , and so your paines also might well have been spared . But had there been no necessity to help and peece out your confuting his Arguments with disgracing his person , ( which yet you cannot doe ) you would have considered , that to them who compare D. Potters Book , & the Arch-Bishops Sermon , this aspersion will presently appear a poore detraction , not to be answered but scorn'd . To say nothing that in D. Potter , being to answere a book by expresse Command from Royall Authority , to leave any thing materiall unsaid , because it had been said before , especially being spoken at large , and without any relation to the Discourse which he was to Answere , had been a ridiculous vanity and foule prevarication . 13 To the sixt . In your sixt parag . I let all passe saving only this , That a perswasion that men of different Religions ( you must mean , or else you speak not to the point , Christians of divers Opinions and Communions ) may be saved , is a most pernitious heresy , and even a ground of Atheisme . What strange extractions Chymistry can make I know not ; but sure I am , he that by reason would inferre this conclusion , That there is no God ; from this ground , That God will save men in different Religions , must have a higher strain in Logick , then you or I have hitherto made shew of . In my apprehension , the other part of the contradiction , That there is a God , should much rather follow from it . And whether contradictions will flow from the same fountaine , let the Learned judge . Perhaps you will say you intended not to deliver here a positive and measur'd truth , and which you expected to be call'd to account for ; but only a high and tragicall expression of your just detestation of the wicked doctrine against which you write . If you mean so , I shall let it passe : only I am to advertize the lesse-wary Reader , that passionate expressions , and vehement asseverations are no arguments ; unlesse it be , of the weaknesse of the cause that is defended by them , or the man that defends it . And to remember you of what Boethius saies of some such things as these , — Nubila mens est haec ubi regnant . For my part I am not now in Passion ; neither will I speak one word which I think I cannot justify to the full : and I say and will maintaine , that to say , That Christians of different Opinions and Communions ( such I mean , who hold all those things that are simply necessary to Salvation ) may 〈◊〉 obtain pardon for the Errours wherein they dye ignorantly , by a generall Repentance ; is so farre from being a ground of Atheisme , that to say the contrary , is to crosse in Diameter a main Article of our Creed , and to overthrow the Gospell of Christ. 14 To the Seaventh and Eight . To the two next Paragraphes , I have but two words to say . The one is , that I know no Protestants that hold it necessary to be able to prove a Perpetuall Visible Church distinct from Yours . Some perhaps undertake to doe so , as a matter of curtesy ; but I believe you will be much to seeke for any one that holds it necessary . For though you say that Christ hath promised there shall be a Perpetuall Visible Church ; yet you yourselves doe not pretend that he hath promised there shall be Histories and Records alwaies extant of the Professors of it in all ages : nor that he hath any where enjoyned us to read those Histories that we may be able to shew them . 14 The other is . That Breerelie's great exactnesse , which you magnify so and amplify , is no very certaine demonstration of his fidelity . A Romance may be told with as much variety of circumstances , as a true Story . 16 To the Ninth and Tenth . Your desires that I would in this rejoynder ; Avoid impertinencies . Not impose doctrines upon you which you disclayme : Set down the substance of your Reasons faithfully and entirely : Not weary the reader with unnecessary quotations : Object nothing to you which I can answere my selfe , or which may be return'd upon my selfe : and lastly , ( which you repeat again in the end of your Preface ) speak as cleerly and distinctly and univocally as possibly I can , are all very reasonable , and shall be by me most punctually and fully satisfied . Only I have Reason to complain , that you give us rules only and not good example in keeping them . For in some of these things I shall have frequent occasion to shew , that Medice curateipsum , may very justly be said unto you ; especially for objecting what might very easily have been answered by you , and may be very justly returned upon you . 17 To your ensuing demands , though some of them be very captious and ensnaring ; yet I will give you as clear and plain and ingenuous Answers as possibly I can . 18 To the Eleventh . To the first then , about the Perpetuity of the visible Church , my Answer is : That I believe our Saviour , ever since his Ascention , hath had in some place or other a Visible true Church on earth : I mean a company of men , that professed at least so much truth as was absolutely necessary for their Salvation . And I believe that there will be somewhere or other such a Church to the Worlds end . But the contrary doctrine I doe at no hand believe to be a damnable heresy . 19 To the twelfth . To the second , what Visible Church there was before Luther disagreeing from the Roman ? I answere , that before Luther there were many Visible Churches in many things disagreeing from the Roman : But not that the whole Catholique Church disagreed from her , because she her selfe was a Part of the Whole , though much corrupted . And to undertake to name a Catholique Church disagreeing from her , is to make her no Part of it , which we doe not , nor need not pretend . And for men agreeing with Protestants in all points , wee will then produce them , when you shall either prove it necessary to be done , which you know we absolutely deny ; or when you shall produce a perpetuall succession of Professors , which in all points have agreed with you , and disagreed from you in nothing . But this my promise , to deal plainly with you , I conceive , & so intended it to be very like his , who undertook to drink up the Sea , upon condition , that he , to whom the promise was made , should first stop the Rivers from runing in . For this unreasonable request which you make to us is to your selves so impossible , that in the very next Age after the Apostles , you will never be able to name a man , whom you can prove to have agreed with you in all things , nay ( if you speak of such , whose Works are extant and unquestioned ) whom we cannot prove to have disagreed from you in many things . Which I am so certain of , that I will venture my credit , and my life upon it . 20 To the Thirteenth . To the third , Whether , seeing there cannot be assign'd any visible true Church distinct from the Roman , it followes not that she err'd not fundamentally . I say in our sence of the word Fundamentall , it does follow . For if it be true , that there was then no Church distinct from the Roman , then it must be , either because there was no Church at all , which we deny : Or because the Roman Church was the whole Church , which we also deny : or because she was a Part of the Whole , which we grant . And if she were a true part of the Church , then she retained those truths which were simply necessary to Salvation , and held no errours which were inevitably and unpardonably destructive of it . For this is precisely necessary to constitute any man or any Church a member of the Church Catholique . In our sence therefore of the word Fundamentall , I hope shee erred not fundamentally : but in your sence of the word , I fear she did . That is , she held something to be Divine Revelation , which was not ; something not to be which was . 21 To the fourteenth . To the fourth . How it could be damnable to maintain her errors , if they were not fundamentall ? I answere . 1. Though it were not damnable , yet if it were a fault , it was not to be done . For a veniall sinne , with you is not damnable ; yet you say , it is not to be committed for the procuring any good . Non est faciendum malum vel minimum , ut eveniat bonum vel maximum . 2. It is damnable to mantaine an error against conscience , though the errour in it selfe , and to him that believes it , be not damnable . Nay the profession not only of an errour , but even of a truth , if not believ'd , when you think on it again , I believe you will confesse to be a mortall sinne ; unlesse you will say , Hypocrisie and Simulation in Religion is not so . 3. Though we say the errors of the Roman Church were not destructive of Salvation , but pardonable even to them that dyed in them , upon a generall repentance : yet we deny not but in themselves they were damnable . Nay , the very saying they were pardonable , implies they needed pardon , and therefore in themselves were damnable : damnable meritoriously , though not effectually . As a poyson may be deadly in it selfe , and yet not kill him , that together with the poyson takes an antidote : or as felony may deserve death and yet not bring it on him that obtaines the Kings pardon . 22 To the fifteenth . To the fift . How they can be excus'd from Schisme , who forsook her Communion upon pretence of errours which were not damnable ! I answere . All that we forfake in you , is only the beliefe , and practice , and profession of your Errors . Hereupon , you cast us out of your Communion . And then with a strange , and contradictious , and ridiculous hypocrisy , complain that we forsake it . As if a man should thrust his friend out of doores , and then be offended at his departure ▪ But for us not to forsake the beliefe of your Errors , having discovered them to be Errors , was impossible ; and therefore to doe so could not be damnable , believing them to be Errors . Not to forsake the practice and profession of them , had been damnable hypocrisie ; supposing that ( which you vainly runne away with , and take for graunted ) those errors in themselves were not damnable . Now to doe so , and as matters now stand , not to forsake your Communion , is apparently contradictious : seeing the condition of your Communion is , that we must professe to believe all your doctrines not only not to be damnable errors ( which will not content you , ) but also to be certain and necessary and revealed truths . So that to demand why we forsake your Communion upon pretence of Errors which were not damnable , is in effect to demand why we forsooke it upon our forsaking it ! For to pretend that there are Errors in your Church though not damnable , is ipso facto to forsake your Communion , and to doe that which both in your account , and as you think in Gods account , puts him as does so , out of your Communion . So that either you must free your Church , from requiring the belief of any errour whatsoever , damnable and not damnable , or whether you will or no you must free us from Schisme . For schisme there cannot be in leaving your communion , unlesse we were obliged to continue in it . Man cannot be obliged by Man , but to what either formally or virtually he is obliged by God , for all just power is from God. God the eternall truth neither can nor will obliege us to believe any the least and the most innocent falshood to be a divine truth , that is , to erre ; nor , to professe a known errour , which is to lye . So that if you require the belief of any errour among the conditions of your Communion , our obligation to communicate with you ceaseth , and so the imputation of schisme to us , vanisheth into nothing : but lies heavy upon you for making our seperation from you just and necessary , by requiring unnecessary and unlawfull conditions of your Communion . Hereafter therefore , I intreat you , let not your demand be , how could we forsake your Communion without Schisme , seeing you err'd not damnably ? But how we could doe so without Schisme , seeing you err'd not at all ? which if either you doe prove , or we cannot disprove it , we will ( I at least will for my part ) returne to your Communion , or subscribe my selfe Schismatique . In the mean time , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 23 Yet notwitstanding all your Errors we doe not renounce your Communion totally and absolutely , but only leave Communicating with you in the practise and profession of your Errors . The tryall whereof will be to propose some forme of worshipping God , taken wholly out of Scripture ; and herein if we refuse to joyn with you , then , and not till then , may you justly say we have utterly and absolutely abandoned your Communion . 24 To the sixteenth . Your sixt demand I have already satisfied in my answeres to the Second and the Fourth : and in my reply , Ad § 2. toward the end . And though you say your repeating must be excused , yet I dare not be so confident , and therefore forbear it . 25 To the seaventeenth . To the seaventh , Whether errour against any one truth sufficiently propounded as testified by God , destroy not the Nature and Vnity of Faith , or at least , is not a grievous offence excluding salvation ! I answere , if you suppose , as you seem to doe the proposition so sufficient , that the party to whom it is made is convinc'd that it is from God , so that the denyall of it involves also with it the denyall of Gods veracity ; any such errour destroyes both faith and salvation . But if the Proposall be only so sufficient , not , that the party to whom it is made is convinc'd , but only that he should , and but for his own fault would have been convinc'd of the divine verity of the doctrine proposed : The crime then is not so great , for the beliefe of Gods veracity may well consist with such an Errour . Yet a fault I confesse it is ( and without Repentance ) damnable , if all circumstances considered the proposall be sufficient . But then I must tell you that the proposall of the present Roman Church is only pretended to be sufficient for this purpose , but is not so : especially all the Rayes of the Divinity , which they pretend to shine so conspicuously in her proposalls , being so darkned and even extinguished with a cloud of contradiction , from Scripture , Reason , and the Ancient Church . 26 To the Eighteenth . To the eight . How of disagreeing Protestants , both parts may hope for salvation , seeing some of them must needs erre against some Truth testified by God ? I answere , 1. The most disagreeing Protestants that are , yet thus farre agree , that these books of Scripture which were never doubted of in the Church , are the undoubted word of God , and a perfect rule of faith . 2. That the sense of them , which God intended , whatsoever it is , is certainly true . So that they believe implicitely even those very truths against which they erre ; and why an implicit faith in Christ and his Word , should not suffice as well as an implicit faith in your Church , I have desired to be resolved by many of your Side , but never could . 3. That they are to use their best endeavours to beleive the Scripture in the true sense and to live according to it . This if they performe ( as I hope many on all Sides doe ) truly and syncerely , it is impossible but that they should believe aright in all things necessary to salvation ; that is , in all those things which appertain to the Covenant between God and man in Christ , for so much , is not only plainly but frequently contained in Scripture . And believing aright touching the Covenant , if they for their parts perform the condition required of them , which is syncere obedience , why should they not expect that God will performe his promise and give them salvation ? For , as for other things which lye without the Covenant , and are therefore lesse necessary , if by reason of the seeming conflict which is oftentimes between Scripture and Reason , and Authority on the one side , and Scripture , Reason , and Authority on the other ; if by reason of the variety of tempers , abilities , educations , & unavoidable prejudices , whereby mens understandings are variously form'd and fashion'd , they doe embrace severall Opinions , whereof some must be erroneous ; to say that God will damne them for such errors , who are lovers of him , and lovers of truth , is to rob man of his comfort , and God of his goodnesse ; it is to make Man desperate and God a Tyrant . But they deny Truths testified by God , and therefore shall be damn'd . Yes , if they knew them to be thus testified by him , and yet would deny them , that were to give God the lye , and questionlesse damnable . But if you should deny a truth which God had testified but only to a man in the Indies , ( as I said before ) and this testification you had never heard of , or at least had no sufficient reason to believe that God had so testified , would not you think it a hard case to be damned for such a denyall ? Yet consider I pray a little more attentively the difference between them , and you will presently acknowledge , the question between them is not at any time , or in any thing , Whether God saies true or no ? or whether he saies this or no ? But supposing he saies this , and saies true , whether he meanes this or no ? As for example , between Lutherans , Calvinists , and Zwinglians , it is agreed that Christ spake these words , This is my Body ; and that whatsoever he meant in saying so is true : But what he meant and how he is to be understood , that 's the question . So that though some of them deny a truth by God intended , yet you can with no reason or justice accuse them of denying the truth of Gods Testimony , unlesse you can plainly shew that God hath declared , and that plainly and clearly , what was his meaning in these words . I say plainly and clearly . For he that speaks obscurely and ambiguously , and no where declares himselfe plainly , sure he hath no reason to be much offended if he be mistaken . When therefore you can shew , that in this and all other their Controversies , God hath interposed his Testimony on one side or other ; so that either they doe see it , and will not ; or were it not for their own voluntary and avoidable fault , might and should see it and doe not ; let all such Errors be as damnable as you please to make them . In the mean while , if they suffer themselves neither to be betraid into their errors , nor kept in them by any sin of their will ; if they doe their best endeavour to free themselves from all errors , and yet faile of it through humane frailty ; so well am I perswaded of the goodnesse of God , that if in me alone , should meet a confluence of all such errors of all the Protestants in the World , that were thus qualified , I should not be so much afraid of them all , as I should be to ask pardon for them . For , whereas that which you affright us with of calling Gods Veracitie in Question , is but a Panicke feare , a fault that no man thus qualified , is , or can be guilty of ; to ask pardon of simple and purely involuntary errors is tacitely to imply that God is angry with us for them , and that were to impute to him the strange tyranny of requiring brick , when he gives no straw ; of expecting to gather , where he strew'd not ; to reap where he sowed not : of being offended with us for not doing what he knowes we cannot doe . This I say upon a supposition that they doe their best endeavours to know Gods will and doe it ; which he that denyes to be possible knowes not what he saies ; for he saies in effect , That men cannot doe , what they can doe ; for to doe what a man can doe , is to doe his best endeavour . But because this supposition , though certainly possible , is very rare , and admirable , I say secondly , that I am verily perswaded , that God will not impute errors to them , as sinnes , who use such a measure of industry , in finding truth , as humane prudence and ordinary discretion ( their abilities and oportunities , their distractions and hindrances , and all other things considered ) shall advise them unto , in a matter of such consequence . But if herein also we faile , then our errors begin to be malignant , and justly imputable , as offences against God , and that love of his truth which he requires in us . You will say then , that for those erring Protestants , which are in this case , which evidently are farre the greater part , they sinne damnably in erring , and therefore there is little hope of their Salvation . To which I answer , that the consequence of this Reason , is somewhat strong against a Protestant ; but much weakned by coming out of the mouth of a Papist . For all sinnes with you are not damnable ; and therefore Protestants errors might be sinnes , and yet not damnable . But yet out of courtesy to you , we will remove this rubbe out of your way ; and for the present suppose them mortall sinnes ; and is there then no hope of Salvation , for him that commits them ? Not , you will say , if he dye in them without repentance ; and such Protestants you speak of , who without repentance dye in their errors . Yea but what if they dye in their errors with repentance ? then I hope you will have Charity enough to think they may be saved . Charity Mist. takes it indeed for granted , that this supposition is destructive of it selfe ; and that it is impossible , and incongruous that a man should repent of those errors wherein he dies ; or dye in those whereof he repents . But it was wisely done of Him to take it for granted ; for most certainly He could not have spoken one word of sense for the confirmation of it . For seeing Protestants believe , as well as you , Gods infinite and most admirable perfections in himselfe , more then most worthy of all possible love : seeing they believe , as well as you , his infinite goodnesse to them , in creating them of nothing ; in creating them according to his own image ; in creating all things for their use and benefit ; in streaming down his favours on them every moment of their lives ; in designing them , if they serve him , to infinite and eternall happinesse ; in redeeming them , not with corruptible things , but the pretious blood of his beloved sonne : seing they believe , as well as you , his infinite goodnesse , and patience towards them , in expecting their conversion ; in wooing , alluring , leading , and by all meanes , which his wisdome can suggest unto him , and mans nature is capable of , drawing them to Repentance & Salvation : Seeing they believe these things as well as you , and for ought you know , consider them as much as you , ( and if they doe not , it is not their Religion , but They that are too blame , ) what can hinder , but that the consideration of Gods most infinite goodnesse to them , and their own almost infinite wickednesse against him , Gods spirit cooperating with them , may raise them to a true and syncere and a cordiall love of God ? And seeing sorrow for having injur'd or offended the person beloved , or when we fear we may have offended him , is the most naturall effect of true love ; what can hinder , but that love which hath oftimes constrained them , to lay down their lives for God ( which our Saviour assures us is the noblest sacrifice we can offer , ) may produce in them an universall sorrow for all their sinnes , both which they know they have committed , and which they fear they may haue ? In which number , their being negligent , or not dispassionate , or not unprejudicate enough in seeking the truth , and , the effect thereof , their errors , if they be sinnes , cannot but be compriz'd . In a word , what should hinder , but that , that Prayer — Delicta sua quis intelligit ? who can understand his faults ? Lord cleanse thou me from my secret sinnes , may be heard and accepted by God , as well from a Protestant that dies in some errours , as from a Papist that dies in some other sins of Ignorance , which perhaps he might more easily haue discovered to bee sinnes , then a Protestant could his errours to be errours ? As well from a Protestant , that held some errour , which ( as he conceived ) Gods word , and his reason , ( which is also in some sort Gods word ) led him unto ; as from a Dominican , who perhaps took up his opinion upon trust , not because he had reason to beleiue it true , but because it was the opinion of his Order ; for the same man if hee had light upon another Order , would in all probabilitie , haue beene of the other opinion . For what else is the cause , that generally all the Dominicans are of one opinion , and all the Iesuits of the other ? I say , from a Dominican who took up his opinion upon trust ; and that such an opinion ( if we beleiue the writers of your Order ) as if it be granted true , it were not a point matter , what opinions any man held , or what actions any man did , for the best would be as bad as the worst , & the worst as good as the best . And yet such is the partialitie of your Hypocrisie , that of disagreeing Papists , neither shall deny the truth testified by God , but both may hope for salvation : but of disagreeing Protestants ( though they differ in the same thing , ) one side must deny Gods Testimony and bee incapable of salvation . That a Dominican through culpable negligence , living and dying in his errour , may repent of it , though hee knowes it not ; or be saued though he doe not : But if a Protestant doe the very same thing , in the very same point , and die in his errour , his case is desperate . The summe of all that hath been said to this Demand is this . 1. That no erring Protestant denies any truth testified by God , under this formalitie , as testified by him ; nor which they know or beleiue to be testified by him . And therefore it is a horrible calumnie in you to say , They call Gods Veracitie in question . For Gods undoubted and unquestion'd Veracitie , is to them the ground why they hold all they doe hold : neither doe they hold any opiniō so stifly , but they will forgoe it rather then this one , That all which God saies is true . 2. God hath not so clearely and plainly declared himselfe in most of these things which are in controversie between Protestants , but that an honest man , whose heart is right to God , and one that is a true louer of God , and of his truth , may by reason of the conflict of contrary Reasons on both sides , very easily , and therefore excusably mistake , and embrace errour for truth , and reject truth for errour . 3 , If any Protestant or Papist be betrayed into , or kept in any Errour , by any sinne of his will ( as it is to be fear'd many millions are ) such Errour is , as the cause of it , sinfull and damnable : yet not exclusiue of all hope of salvation , but pardonable if discover'd , upon a particular explicite repentance ; if not discover'd , upon a generall and implicite repentance for all Sinnes knowne and unknowne : in which number all sinfull Errours must of necessity be contained . 17 To the 9. To the nineteenth , Wherein you are so urgent for a partilar Catalogue of Fundamentalls : I answer almost in your owne words , that we also constantly urge and require to haue a particular Catalogue of your Fundamentals , whether they be written Verities , or unwritten Traditions , or Church Definitions ? all which , you say , integrate the materiall Object of your Faith : In a word of all such points as are defin'd and sufficiently proposed ; so that whosoever denies , or doubts of any of them , is certainly in the state of damnation . A Catalogue I say in particular of the Proposals : and not only some generall definition , or description , under which you lurke deceitfully , of what and what only is sufficiently proposed : wherein yet you doe not very well agree . For many of you hold the Popes proposall Ex Cathedra , to be sufficient and obligeing : Some a Councel without a Pope : Some , of neither of them severally , but only both together : Some not this neither in matter of manners , which Bellarmine acknowledges , & tells us it is all one in effect , as if they denied it sufficient in matter of faith : Some not in matter of faith , neither think this proposall infallible , without the acceptation of the Church universall : Some deny the infallibility of the Present Church , and only make the Tradition of all ages the infallible Propounder . Yet if you were agreed what and what only is the Infallible Propounder , this would not satisfie us ; nor yet to say that All is fundamentall which is propounded sufficiently by him . For though agreeing in this , yet you might still disagree whether such or such a Doctrine were propounded or not : or if propounded , whether sufficiently , or only unsufficiently . And it is so knowne a thing , that in many points you doe so , that I assure my selfe you will not deny it . Therefore we constantly urge and require a particular and perfect Inventory of all these Divine Revelations , which you say are sufficiently propounded , & that such a one to which all of your Church will subscribe as neither redundant , nor deficient ; which when you giue in with one hand , you shall receiue a particular Catalogue of such Points as I call Fundamentall , with the other . Neither may you think mee unreasonable in this demand , seeing upon such a particular Catalogue of your sufficient Proposalls as much depends , as upon a particular Catalogue of our Fundamentalls . As for example . Whether or no a man doe not erre in some point defined and sufficiently proposed : and whether or no those that differ among you , differ in Fundamentalls ; which if they doe One Heaven ( by your owne Rule ) cannot receiue them All. Perhaps you will here complaine , that this is not to satisfie your demand , but to avoid it , and to put you off as the Areopagites did hard causes ad diem longissimum , and bid you come againe a hundred yeares hence : To deale truly , I did so intend it should be . Nether can you say my dealing with you is injurious , seeing I require nothing of you , but that , what you require of others , you should shew it possible to be done , and just and necessary to be required . For , for my part , I haue great reason to suspect , it is neither the one nor the other . For whereas the Verities which are delivered in Scripture , may be very fitly divided into such as were written because they were necessary to be beleived , Of which ranke are those only which constitute and make up the Covenant between God and Man in Christ : and then such as are necessary to be beleived not in themselues but only by accident , because they were written . Of which rank are many matters of History , of Prophecy , of mystery , of Policy , of Oeconomie , & such like , which are evidently not intrinsecall to the Covenant . Now to sever exactly & punctually these Verities one trom the other : what is necessary in it selfe & antecedently to the writing , from what is but only profitable in it selfe , and necessary only because written , is a businesse of extreame great difficultie , and extreame little necessitie . For first he that will goe about to distinguish especially in the Story of our Saviour , what was written because it was profitable , from what was written because necessary , shall find an intricate peece of businesse of it , & almost impossible that he should be certaine he hath done it , when he hath done it . And then it is apparently unnecessary to goe about it , seeing he that beleiues all , certainly belieues all that is necessary . And he that doth not beleiue all ( I meane all the undoubted parts of the undoubted Books of Scripture ) can hardly belieue any , neither haue we reason to beleiue he doth so . So that , that Protestants giue you not a Catalogue of Fundamentalls , it is not from Tergiversation ( as you suspect , who for want of Charitie to them alwaies suspect the worst , ) but from Wisdome and Necessity . For they may very easily erre in doing it ; because though all which is necessary be plaine in Scripture , yet all which is plaine is not therefore written because it was necessary . For what greater necessity was there that I should know S. Paul left his Cloak at Troas , then those Worlds of Miracles , which our Saviour did , which were never written . And when they had done it , it had been to no purpose ; There being , as matters now stand , as great necessitie , of believing those truths of Scripture , which are not Fundamentall , as those that are . You see then what reason we haue to decline this hard labour , which you a rigid Taske-master haue here put upon us . Yet insteed of giving you a Catalogue of Fundamentalls , with which I dare say you are resolu'd before it come , never to be satisfied , I will say that to you , which if you please may doe you as much service ; and this it is . That it is sufficient for any mans salvation that he belieue the Scripture : That he endeavour to beleiue it in the true sense of it , as farre as concernes his dutie : And that he conforme his life unto it either by Obedience or Repentance . Hee that does so ( and all Protestants according to the Dictamen of their Religion should doe so , ) may be secure that he cannot erre fundamentally . And they that doe so cannot differ in Fundamentals . So that notwithstanding their differences , & your presumption , the same Heaven may receiue them All. 28 To the twentieth . Your tenth & last request is , to know distinctly what is the doctrine of the Protestant English Church , in these points ; and what my private opinion . Which shall be satisfied when the Church of England hath expressed her selfe in them ; or when you haue told us what is the doctrine of your Church , in the Question of Predetermination , or the Immaculate Conception . 29 To the 21 & 22. These answers I hope in the judgement of indifferent men are satisfactory to your Questions , though not to you , For I haue either answer'd them , or given you a reason why I haue not . Neither , for ought I can see , haue I flitted from things considered in their owne nature , to accidentall or rare Circumstances , But told you my opinion plainely what I thought of your Errours in themselues : and what as they were qualified or malignified with good or bad circumstances . Though I must tell you truly , that I see no reason , the Question being of the damnablenesse of Errour , why you should esteeme ignorance , incapacitie , want of meanes to be instructed , accidentall and rare Circumstances : As if knowledge , capacitie , having meanes of Instruction , concerning the truth of your Religion or ours , were not as rare & unusuall in the adverse part of either , as Ignorance , Incapacitie , and want of meanes of instruction . Especially how erroneous Conscience can be a rare thing in those that erre , or how unerring Conscience is not much more rare , I am not able to apprehend . So that to consider men of different Religions ( the subject of this Contoversie ) in their owne nature and without circumstances , must be to consider them , neither as ignorant , nor as knowing : neither as having , nor as wanting meanes of Instruction : neither as with Capacity , nor without it : neither with erroneous , nor yet with unerring conscience . And then what judgement can you pronounce of them , all the goodnesse and badnesse of an Action depending on the Circumstances . Ought not a Iudge being to giue sentence of an Action , to consider all the Circumstances of it , or is it possible he should judge rightly that does not so ? Neither is it to purpose , That Circumstances being various , cannot be well comprehended under any generall rule : For though under any generall rule they cannot , yet under many generall rules they may be comprehended . The Question here is , you say , whether men of different Religions may be saved ? Now the subject of this Question is an ambiguous terme and may be determined and invested with diverse and contrary Circumstances : and accordingly contrary judgements are to be given of it . And who then can be offended with D. Potter for distinguishing before he defines , ( the want whereof is the cheife thing that makes defining dangerous ? ) Who can finde fault with him for saying , If , through want of meanes of instruction , incapacitie , invincible or probable ignorance a man dye in errour , he may be saved . But if he be negligent in seeking Truth , unwilling to find it , either doth see it and will not , or might see it and will not , that his case is dangerous , & without repentance desperate . This is all that D. Potter saies : neither rashly damning all that are of a different opinion from him , not securing any that are in matter of Religion sinfully , that is , willingly erroneous . The Author of this Reply ( I will abide by it ) saies the very same thing , neither can I see what adversary he hath in the maine Question but his owne shaddow ; and yet I know not out of what frowardnesse findes fault with D. Potter , for affirming that which himselfe affirmes : and to cloude the matter , whereas the Question is , whether men by ignorance , dying in errour may be saved , would haue them considered neither as erring , nor ignorant . And when the question is , whether The errors of Papists bee damnable : to which we answer . That to them that doe or might knowe them to be errours , they are damnable , to them that doe not , they are not . He tels us that this is to change the state of the Question , whereas indeed it is to state the Question , and free it from ambiguity before you answer it : and to haue recourse to Accidentall Circumstances ; as if Ignorance were accidentall to error , or as if a man could be considered as in errour , and not be considered as in ignorance of the Truth from which he erres ! Certainly Errour against a Truth , must needs presuppose a nescience of it : unlesse you will say , that a man may at once resolue for a Truth and resolue against it , assent to it , and dissent from it , knowe it to be true , and beleiue it not to be true . Whether Knowledge & Opinion touching the same thing , may stand together , is made a Question in the Schooles : But hee that would question , whether knowing a thing and doubting of it , much more , whether knowing it to be true & believing it to be false , may stand together , deserues without question no other Answer but laughter . Now if Errour & knowledge connot consist , then Errour and Ignorance must be inseparable . He then that professeth your errours may well be considered either as knowing or as Ignorant . But him that does erre indeed , you can no more conceiue without ignorance , then Long without Quantity , Vertuous without Qualitie , a Man , and not a living Creature , to haue gone ten miles , and not to haue gone fiue , to speak sense , and not to speake . For as the latter in all these is implied in the former , so is Ignorance of a Truth , supposed in errour against it . Yet such a man , though not conceaueable without Ignorance simply , may be very well considered either as with , or without voluntary and sinfull Ignorance . And he that will giue a wise answer to this Question , Whether a Papist dying a Papist may be saved , according to Gods ordinary proceeding ; must distinguish him according to these severall considerations , and say , Hee may be saved , If his ignorance were either invincible , or at least unaffected and probable : if otherwise , without repentance he cannot . To the rest of this Preface , I haue nothing to say ; saving what hath been said , but this , That it is no just exception to an argument to call it vulgar and thredbare . Truth can neither be too common nor superannuated , nor Reason ever worne out . Let your Answers be solid & pertinent , and we will never finde fault with them for being old or common . THE FIRST PART . The State of the Question ; with a summary of the reasons for which amongst men of different Religions , one side only can be saved . CHAP. I. NEver is Malice more indiscreet , then when it chargeth others with imputation of that , to which it selfe becomes more liable , even by that very act of accusing others . For , though guiltinesse be the effect of some errour , yet usually it begets a kind of Moderation , so far forth , as not to let men cast such aspersions upon others , as must apparantly reflect upon themselves . Thus cannot the Poet endure , that Gracchus , who was a factious and unquiet man , should be inveighing against Sedition : and the Roman Oratour rebukes Philosophers ; who , to waxe glorious , superscribed their Names upon those very bookes which they entitled , Of the contempt of glory . What then shall we say of D. Potter , who in the Title , and Text of his whole book doth so tragically charge Want of Charity on all such Romanists , as dare affirme , that Protestancy destroyeth Salvation ; while he himselfe is in act of pronouncing the like heavy doom against Roman Catholiques ? For , not satisfied with much uncivill language , in affirming the Roman Church many a wayes to have plaid the Harlot , and in that regard deserved a bill of divorce from Christ , and detestation of Christians ; in styling her , that proud b and curst Dame of Rome , which takes upon her to revell in the House of God ; in talking of an Idoll c to be worshipped at Rome ; he comes at length to thunder out this fearfull sentence against her : For that d Masse of Errors ( saith he ) in iudgement and practise , which is proper to her , and wherein she differs from us , we iudge a reconciliation impossible , and to us ( who are convicted in conscience of her corruptions ) damnable . And in another place ho saith : For us who e are convinced in conscience , that she erres in many things , a necessity lyes upon us , even under pain of damnation , to forsake her in those Errors . By the acerbity of which Censure , he doth not only make himselfe guilty of that , which he judgeth to be a haynous offence in others , but freeth us also from all colour of crime by this his unadvised recrimination . For , if Roman Catholikes be likewise convicted in conscience of the Errors of Protestants ; they may , and must , in conformity to the Doctor 's own rule , judge a reconciliation with them to be also damnable . And thus , all the Want of Charity so deeply charged on us , dissolves it selfe into this poore wonder , Roman Catholiques believe in their conscience , that the Religion which they professe , is true , and the contrary false . 2. Neverthelesse , we earnestly desire , and take care , that our doctrine may not be defamed by misinterpretation . Far be it from us , by way of insultation , to apply it against Protestants , otherwise then as they are comprehended under the generality of those who are divided from the only one true Church of Christ our Lord , within the Communion whereof he hath confined salvation . Neither doe we understand , why our most deere Countrymen should be offended if the Vniversality be particularized under the name of Protestants , first given g to certain Lutherans , who protesting that they would stand out against the Imperiall decrees , in defence of the Confession exhibited at Ausburge , were termed Protestants , in regard of such their protesting : which Confessio Augustana disclaiming from , and being disclaymed by Calvinists , and Zwinglians , our naming or exemplifying a generall doctrine under the particular name of Protestantisme , ought not in any particular manner to be odious in England . 3 Moreover , our meaning is not , as misinformed persons may conceive , that we give Protestants over to reprobation ; that we offer no prayers in hope of their salvation ; that we hold their case desperate . God forbid ! We hope , we pray for their Conversion ; and sometimes we find happy effects of our charitable desires . Neither is our Censure immediatly directed to particular persons . The Tribunall of particular Iudgement is Gods alone . When any man esteemed a Protestant , leaveth to live in this world , we doe not instantly with precipitation avouch , that he is lodged in Hell. For we are not alwaies acquainted with what sufficiency or meanes he was furnished for instruction ; we doe not penetrate his capacity to understand his Catechist , we have no revelation what light might have cleered his errours , or Contrition retracted his sinnes , in the last moment before his death . In such particular cases , we wish more apparent signes of salvation , but doe not give any dogmaticall sentence of perdition . How greivous sinnes , Disobedience , Schisme , and Heresy are , is well knowne . But to discerne how farre the naturall malignity of those great offences might be checked by Ignorance , or by some such lessening circumstance , is the office rather of Prudence then of Faith. 4 Thus we allow Protestants as much Charity , as D. Potter spares us , for whom , in the words above mentioned , and else where , he h makes Ignorance the best hope of salvation . Much lesse comfort , can we expect from the fierce d●●trine of those chiefe Protestants , who teach that for many ages before Luther , Christ had no visible Church upon earth . Not these men alone , or such as they , but even the 39. Articles , to which the English Protestant Clergy subscribes , censure our beliefe so deeply , that Ignorance can scarce , or rather not at all , excuse us from damnation . Our doctrine of Transubstantiation , is affirmed to be repugnant to the plaine words of i Scripture ; our Masses to be blasphemous k Fables , with much more to be seen in the Articles themselves . In a certaine Confession of the Christian faith , at the end of their books of Psalmes collected into Meeter , and printed Cum privilegio Regis Regali , they call us Idolaters , and limmes of Antichrist ; and having set downe a Catalogue of our doctrines , they conclude , that for them we shall after the Generall Resurrection be damned to unquenchable fire . 5 But yet least any man should flatter himselfe with our charitable Mitigations , and thereby wax carelesse in search of the true Church , we desire him to read the Conclusion of the Second Part , where this matter is more explained . 6 And because we cannot determine , what Iudgment may be esteemed rash , or prudent , except by weighing the reasons upon which it is grounded , we will heere , under one aspect , present a Summary of those Principles , from which we infer , that Protestancy in it selfe unrepented destroyes Salvation : intending afterward to prove the truth of every one of the grounds , till , by a concatenation of sequels , we fall upon the Conclusion , for which we are charged with Wan● of Charity . 7 Now , this is our gradation of reasons . Almighty God , having ordained Mankind to a supernaturall End of eternall felicity , hath in his holy Providence setled competent and convenient Meanes , whereby that end may be attained . The universall grand Origen of all such means , is the Incarnation and Death of our Blessed Saviour , whereby he merited internall grace for us ; and founded an externall visible Church , provided and stored with all those helps which might be necessary for Salvation . From hence it followeth , that in this Church amongst other advantages , there must be some effectuall meanes to beget , and conserve faith , to maintaine Vnity , to discover and condemne Heresies , to appease and reduce Schismes , and to determine all Controversies in Religion . For without such meanes , the Church should not be furnished with helps sufficient to salvation , nor God afford sufficient meanes to attayne that End , to which himselfe ordained Mankind . This meanes to decide Controversies in faith and Religion ( whether it should be the holy Scripture , or whatsoever else ) must be indued with an Vniversall Infallibility , in whatsoever it propoundeth for a divine truth , that is , as revealed , spoken , or testifyed by Almighty God , whether the matter of its nature , be great or small . For if it were subject to errour in any one thing , we could not in any other yield it infallible assent ; because we might with good reason doubt , whether it chanced not to erre in that particular . 8 Thus farre all must agree to what wee have said , unlesse they have a mind to reduce Faith to Opinion . And even out of these grounds alone , without further proceeding , it undenyably followes , that of two men dissenting in matters of faith , great or small , few or many , the one connot be saved without repentance , unlesse Ignorance accidentally may in some particular person plead excuse . For in that case of contrary beliefe , one must of necessity be held to oppose Gods word , or Revelation sufficiently represented to his understanding by an infallible Propounder ; which opposition to the Testimony of God is undoubtedly a damnable sin , whether otherwise , the thing so testified , be in it selfe great or small . And thus wee have already made good , what was promised in the argument of this Chapter , that amongst men of different Religions , one is only capable of being saved . 9 Neverthelesse , to the end that men may know in particular what is the said infallible meanes upon which we are to rely in all things concerning Fayth , and accordingly may be able to judge in what safety or danger , more or lesse they live ; and because D. Potter descendeth to divers particulars about Scriptures and the Church &c. we will goe forward , and prove , that although Scripture be in it selfe most sacred , infallible , and divine ; yet it alone cannot be to us a Rule , or Iudge , fit an able to end all doubts and debates emergent in matters of Religion ; but that there must be some externall , visible , publique , living Iudge , to whom all sorts of persons both learned and unlearned , may without danger of errour , have recourse ; and in whose Iudgment they may rest , for the interpreting and propounding of Gods Word or Revelation . And this living Iudge , we will most evidently prove to be no other , but that Holy , Catholique , Apostolique , and Visible Church , which our Saviour purchased with the effusion of his most precious bloud . 10 If once therefore it be granted , that the Church is that means , which God hath left for deciding all Controversies in faith , it manifestly will follow , that shee must be infallible in all her determinations , whether the matters of themselves be great or small ; because as we said above , it must be agreed on all sides , that if that meanes which God hath left to determine Controversies were not infallible in all things proposed by it as truths revealed by Almighty God , it could not settle in our minds a firme , and infallible beliefe of any one . 11 From this Vniversall infallibility of Gods Church it followeth , that whosoever wittingly denyeth any one point proposed by her , as revealed by God , is injurious to his divine Majesty , as if he could either deceive , or be deceived in what he testifieth . The averring whereof , were not a fundamentall error , but would overthrow the very foundation of all fundamentall points , and therefore without repentance could 〈◊〉 possibly stand with salvation . 12 Out of these grounds , we will shew , that although the distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall , be good and usefull , as it is delivered and applied by Catholique Divines , to teach what principall Articles of faith , Christians are obliged explicitely to believe : yet that it is impertinent to the present purpose of excusing any man from grievous sinne , who knowingly disbelieves , that is , believes the contrary of that which Gods Church proposeth as divine Truth . For it is one thing not to know explicitly some thing testifyed by God , & another positively to oppose what we know he hath restified . The former may often be excused from sin , but never the latter , which only is the case in Question . 13 In the same manner shall be demonstrated , that to alleadge the Creed , as containing all Articles of faith necessary to be explicitely believed , is not pertinent to free from sinne the voluntary deniall of any other point knowen to be defined by Gods Church . And this were sufficient to overthrow all that D. Potter alleadgeth , concerning the Creed : though yet by way of Supererogation , we will prove , that there are divers important matters of Faith which are not mentioned at all in the Creed . 14 From the aforesaid maine principle , that God hath alwaies had , and alwaies will have on earth , a Church Visible , within whose Communion Salvation must be hoped , and infallible , whose definitions we ought to believe ; we will prove , that Luther , Calvin and all other , who continue the division in Communion , or Faith , from that Visible Church , which at , and before Luther's appearance , was spread over the world , cannot be excused from Schisme and Heresy , although they opposed her faith but in one only point ; whereas it is manifest , they dissent from her , in many and weighty matters , concerning as well beliefe , as practise . 15 To these reasons drawne from the vertue of Faith , we will adde one other taken from Charitas propria , the Vertue of Charity , as it obligeth us , not to expose our soule to hazard of perdition , when we can put ourselves in a way much more secure , as we will prove , that of the Roman Catholiques to be . 16 We are then to prove these points . First , that the infallible means to determine controversies in matters of faith , is the visible Church of Christ. Secondly , that the distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall , maketh nothing to our present Question . Thirdly , that to say the Creed containes all fundamentall points of faith , is neither pertinent , nor true . Fourthly , that both Luther , and all they who after him , persist in division from the Communion , and Faith of the Roman Church , cannot be excused from Schisme . Fiftly , nor from Heresy . Sixtly and lastly , that in regard of the precept of Charity towards ones selfe , Protestants be in state of sinne , as long as they remaine divided from the Roman Church . And these six points , shall be severall Arguments for so many ensuing Chapters , 17 Only I will here observe , that it seemeth very strange , that Protestants should charge us so deeply with Want of Charity , for only teaching , that both they , and we cannot be saved , seeing themselves must affirme the like of whosoever opposeth any least point delivered in Scripture , which they hold to be the sole Rule of Faith. Out of which ground they must be enforced to let all our former Inferences passe for good . For , is it not a grievous sinne , to deny any one truth contained in holy Writ ? Is there in such deniall , any distinction betwixt points fundamentall , and not fundamentall , sufficient to excuse from heresy ? Is it not impertinent , to alleadge the Creed containing all fundamentall points of faith , as if believing it alone , we were at liberty to deny all other points of Scripture ? In a word : According to Protestants ; Oppose not Scripture , there is no Errour against faith . Oppose it in any least point , the error ( if Scripture be sufficiently proposed , which proposition is also required before a man can be obliged to believe even fundamentall points ) must be damnable . What is this , but to say with us , Of persons contrary in whatsoever point of beliefe , one party only can be saved ? And D. Potter must not take it ill , if Catholiques believe they may be saved in that Religion for which they suffer . And if by occasion of this doctrine , men will still be charging us with Want of Charity , and be resolved to take scandall where none is given ; we must comfort our selves with that grave , and true saying of S. Gregory : If scandall l be taken from declaring a truth , it is better to permit scandall , then forsake the truth . But the solid grounds of our Assertion , and the sincerity of our intention in uttering what wee think , yield us confidence , that all will hold for most reasonable the saying of Pope Gelasius to Anastasius the Emperour ; Farre ●e it from the Roman Emperour that he should hold it for a wrong to have truth declared to him ! Let us therefore begin with that Point which is the first that can be controverted betwixt Protestants and us , for as much as concernes the present Question , and is contained in the Argument of the next ensuing Chapter . THE ANSWER TO THE FIRST CHAPTER . Shewing , that the Adversary grants the Former Question and proposeth a New one : And that there is no reason , why among men of different opinions and Communions , one Side only can be sav'd . 1. TO the first § . Your first onset is very violent . D. Potter is charg'd with malice and indiscretion , for being uncharitable to you , while he is accusing you of uncharitablenesse . Verily a great fault , and folly , if the accusation be just ; if unjust , a great calumnie . Let us see then how you make good your charge . The effect of your discourse , if I mistake not , is this . D. Potter chargeth the Roman Church with many and great errours ; judgeth reconciliation betweene her Doctrine and ours impossible ; and that for them who are convicted in Conscience of her Errors , not to forsake her in them , or to be reconcil'd unto her , is damnable : Therefore if Roman Catholiques be convicted in conscience of the Errours of Protestants , they may and must judge a reconciliation with them damnable , & consequently , to judge so is no more uncharitable in thē , then it is in the Doctor to judge as he does . All this I grant ; nor would any Protestant accuse you of want of Charity , if you went no further : if you judg'd the Religion of Protestants damnable to them only who professe it being , convicted in conscience that it is erroneous . For , if a man judge some act of vertue to be a sinne , in him it is a sinne indeed : So you have taught us , p. 19. So if you be convinc'd , or rather , to speake properly , perswaded in conscience that our Religion is erroneous , the profession of it , though in it selfe most true , to you would be damnable . This therefore I subscribe very willingly , and withall , that if you said no more , D. Potter and my selfe should not be to Papists only , but even to Protestants , as uncharitable as you are . For I shall alwaies professe and glory in this uncharitablenesse of judging hypocrisie a damnable sinne . Let Hypocrites then and Dissemblers on both sides passe . It is not towards them , but good Christians ; not to Protestant Professors but Believers that we require your Charity . What think you of those that believe so verily the truth of our Religion , that they are resolv'd to die in it , and if occasion were , to die for it ? What Charity have you for them ? What think yee of those that in the dayes of our Fathers , laid down their lives for it ? are you content that they shall be saved , or doe you hope they may be so ? Will you grant that notwithstanding their Errours , there is good hope they might die with repentance ? and if they did so ▪ certainly they are sav'd . If you will doe so , this Controversie is ended . No man will hereafter charge you with want of Charity . This is as much as either we give you , or expect of you , while you remaine in your Religion . But then you must leave abusing silly people , with telling them ( as your fashion is ) that Protestants confesse Papists may be saved , but Papists confesse not so much of Protestants ; therefore yours is the safer way , and in Wisdome and Charity to our owne soules we are bound to follow it . For granting this , you grant as much hope of salvation to Protestants , as Protestants doe to you . If you will not , but will still affirme , as C. M. does , that Protectants , not dissemblers but believers , without a particular repentance of their Religion cannot be saved : This I say , is a want of Charity , into the society whereof D. Potter cannot bee drawn but with palpable and transparent Sophistrie . For I pray Sir what dependance is there between these Propositions : We that hold Protestant Religion false should be damned if we should professe it , Therefore they also shall be damned , that hold it true ? Iust as if you should conclude , Because hee that doubts is damned if he eat , Therefore he that does not doubt is damn'd also if he eat . And therefore though your Religion to us , or ours to you , if professed against Conscience would be damnable ; yet may it well be uncharitable to define it shall be so , to them that professe either this or that according to Conscience . This recrimination therefore upon D. Potter wherewith you begin , is a plain Fallacie : And I feare your proceedings will be answerable to these beginings ! 2 Ad § . 2. In this Paragraph , Protestants are thus farre comforted , that they are not sent to Hell without Company ; which the Poet tells us , is the miserable comfort of miserable Men. Then we in England are requested not to be offended with the name of Protestants . Which is a favour I shall easily grant , if by it be understood those that Protest , not against Imperiall Edicts , but against the Corruptions of the Church of Rome . 3 Ad § . 3. 4 , 5 ▪ 6. That you give us not ●ver to reprobation , That you pray and hope for our salvation , if it be a Charity , is such a one as is common to Turkes and Iewes and Pagans with us : But that which followes is extraordinary ; Neither doe I know any man that requires more of you then there you pretend to . For there you tell us , That when any man , esteem'd a Protestant , dies , you doe not instantly avouch that he is lodg'd in Hell. Where the word esteem'd is ambiguous : For it may signifie , esteem'd truly , and esteemd falsely . Hee may be esteem'd a Protestant that is so : And he may be esteem'd a Protestant that is not so . And therefore I should have had just occasion to have laid to your charge the transgression of your own chief prescription , which you say truth exacts at our hands , that is , to speake clearely or distinctly , and not to walk in darknesse ; but that your following words to my understanding declare sufficiently that you speake of both sorts . For there you tell us that the Reasons why you damne not any man that dies with the esteem of a Protestant , are . 1. Because you are not alwaies acquainted with what sufficiency of means he was furnished for instruction ; You must mean touching the falshood of his own Religion , and the truth of yours . Which reason is proper to those that are Protestants in truth , and not only in estimation . 2. Because you doe not penetrate his capacitie to understand his Cateohist ; which is also peculiar to those , who for want of capacitie ( as you conceive ) remaine Protestants indeed , and are not only so accounted . 3. Because you have no Revelation what light might clear his errors ; which belongs to those which were esteem'd Protestants , but indeed were not so . 4. Because you have no Revelation what Contrition might have retracted his sinnes : which reason being distinct from the former , and divided from it by the disjunctive particle , Or , insinuates unto us , that though no light did clear the errors of a dying Protestant , yet Contrition might , for ought you know , retract his sinnes : which appropriates this reason also to Protestants truly so esteem'd . I wish with all my heart that in obedience to your own prescription , you had expressed your selfe in this matter more fully and plainly . Yet that which you say , doth plainly enough afford us these corollaries . 1 That whatsoever Protestant wanteth capacity , or having it , wanteth sufficient meanes of instruction to convince his Conscience of the falshood of his own , and the truth of the Roman Religion , by the confession of his most rigid Adversaries , may be saved , notwithstanding any error in his Religion . 2 That nothing hinders but that a Protestant dying a Protestant may dye with contrition for all his sinnes . 3 That , if he doe dye with Contrition , he may and shall be saved . 4 All these acknowledgements we have from you , while you are , as you say , stateing , but as I conceive granting the very point in question ; which was , as I have already prov'd out of C. M. whether without uncharitablenesse you may pronounce , that Protestants dying in the belief of their Religion , and without particular repentance and dereliction of it cannot possibly be saved . Which C. M. affirmes universally , and without any of your limitations . But this presumption of his , you thus qualify , by saying , that this sentence cannot be pronounced truly and therefore sure not charitably , neither of those Protestants that want meanes sufficient to instruct and convince them of the truth of your Religion and the falshood of their own : Nor of those , who , though they have neglected the meanes they might have had , dyed with contrition , that is , with a sorrow for all their sinnes proceeding from the love of God. So that according to your doctrine it shall remain upon such only , as either were , or but for their own fault , might have been sufficiently convinced of the truth of your Religion , and the falshood of their own , and yet dye in it without contrition . Which doctrine if you would stand to , and not pull down , and pull back with one hand , what you give and build with the other , this controversy were ended ; and I should willingly acknowledge , that which followes in your fourth paragraph ; That you allow Protestants as much Charity as D. Potter allowes you . But then I must intreat you to alter the argument of this Chapter , and not to goe about to give us reasons , why amongst men of different Religions , one side only can be saved absolutely , which your Reasons drive at : But you must temper the crudenes of your Assertion by saying , One side only can be saved , unlesse want of Conviction , or else Repentance excuse the other . Besides you must not only abstaine from damning any Protestant in particular , but from affirming in generall , that Protestants dying in their Religion cannot be saved ; for you must alwaies remember to adde this caution , unlesse they were excusably ignorant of the falshood of it , or dyed with contrition . And then considering that you cannot know , whether or no , all things considered , they were convinc'd sufficiently of the truth of your Religion and the falshood of their own , you are oblig'd by Charity to judge the best , and hope they are not . Considering again , that notwithstanding their Errors , they may dye with contrition , & that it is no way improbable that they doe so , & the contrary you cannot be certain of , You are bound in Charity to judge and hope they doe so . Considering thirdly and lastly , that if they dye not with Contrition , yet it is very probable they may dye with Attritiō , & that this pretence of yours , that Contrition will serve without actuall Confession , but Attrition will not , is but a nicety or phancy , or rather , to give it the true name , a Device of your own , to serve ends and purposes ; ( God having no where declared himselfe , but that wheresoever he will accept of that repentance , which you are pleased to call Contrition , he will accept of that which you call Attrition ; For though he like best the bright flaming holocaust of Love , yet he rejects not , he quenches not the smoaking flaxe of that repentance ( if it be true and effectuall ) which proceeds from hope and fear : ) These things I say , considered , ( unlesse you will have the Charity of your doctrine rise up in judgement against your uncharitable practise ) you must not only not be peremptory , in damning Protestants , but you must hope well of their Salvation : and out of this hope , you must doe for them as well as others , those , as you conceive , Charitable offices , of Praying , giving Almes and offering Sacrifice , which usually you doe , for those of whose Salvation you are well and charitably perswaded ; ( for I believe you will never conceive so well of Protestants , as to assure your selves they goe directly to heaven . ) These things whē you doe I shall believe you think as charitably as you speak . But untill then , as he said in the Comedy , Quid verba audiam cum facta videam ? so may I say to you , Quid verba audiam cum facta non videam ? To what purpose should you give us charitable words , which presently you retract again , by denying us your charitable actions . And as these things you must doe , if you will stand to and make good this pretended Charity , so must I tell you again and again , that one thing you must not doe ; I mean , you must not affright poore people out of their Religion , with telling them , that by the confession of both sides , your way is safe , but in your judgement , ours undoubtedly damnable . Seeing neither you deny Salvation to Protestants dying with repentance , nor we promise it to you , if ye dye without it . For to deal plainly with you , I know no Protestant that hath any other hope of your salvation , but upon these grounds , that unaffected ignorance may excuse you , or true repentance obtain pardon for you ; neither doe the heavy censures which Protestants ( you say ) passe upon your errors , any way hinder but they may hope as well of you , upon repentance , as I doe . For the fierce doctrine , which , God knowes who , teaches , that Christ for many ages before Luther had no visible Church upon earth ; will be mild enough , if you conceive them to mean ( as perhaps they doe ) by no visible Church , none pure and free from corruptions , which in your judgement is all one with no Church . But the truth is the corruption of the Church , and the destruction of it , is not all one . For if a particular man or Church may ( as you confesse they may ) hold some particular Errors , and yet be a member of the Church universall : why may not the Church hold some universall Error , and yet be still the Church ? especially , seeing you say , it is nothing but opposing the doctrine of the Church , that makes an error damnable , and it is impossible that the Church should oppose the Church , I mean that the present Church should oppose it selfe . And then for the English Protestants , though they censure your Errors deeply , yet , by your favour , with their deepest censures it may well consist that invincible ignorance may excuse you from damnation for them . For you your selfe confesse that ignorance may excuse Errors , even in Fundamentall Articles of faith : so that a man so erring shall not offend at all in such his ignorance or error ; they are your own words . p. 19. And againe which their heaviest censures it may well consist , that your Errors though in themselves damnable , yet may prove not damning to you , if you dye with true repentance , for all your sinnes known and unknown . 5 Thus much Charity therefore , if you stand to what you have said , is interchangeably granted by each Side to the other , that Neither Religion is so fatally destructive , but that by ignorance or repentance salvation may be had on both Sides : though with a difference that keeps Papists still on the more uncharitable side . For whereas we conceive a lower degree of repentance ( that which they call Attrition ) if it be true , and effectuall , and convert the heart of the penitent , will serve in them : They pretend ( even this Author which is most charitable towards us , ) that without Contrition there is no hope for us , But though Protestants may not obtain this purchase at so easy a rare as Papists , yet ( even Papists being Iudges ) they may obtain it ; and though there is no entrance for them but at the only doore of Contrition , yet they may enter , Heaven is not inaccessible to them . Their errors are no such impenetrable Istmus's between them and Salvation , but that Contrition may make a way through them . All their Schisme and Heresy is no such fatall poison , but that if a man ioyne with it the Antidote of a generall repentance , he may dye in it , and live for ever . Thus much then being acknowledged , I appeal to any indifferent reader , whether C. M. be not by his Hyperaspist forsaken in the plain field , and the point in question granted to D. Potter , viz. That Protestancy even without a particular repentance , is not destructive of Salvation ; so that all the Controversy remaining now , is , not simply whether Protestancy unrepented destroies salvation ? as it was at first proposed , but Whether Protestancy in it selfe ( that is abstracting from ignorance and contrition ) destroies Salvation ? So that as a foolish fellow who gave a Knight the Lye , desiring withall leave of him to set his Knighthood aside , was answered by him , that he would not suffer any thing to be set aside that belonged unto him : So might we justly take it amisse , that conceiving as you doe ignorance and repentance such necessary things for us , you are not more willing to consider us with them , then without them . For my part such is my charity to you , that considering what great necessity You have , as much as any Christian society in the World , that these sanctuaries of Ignorance and Repentance should alwaies stand open , I can very hardly perswade my selfe so much as in my most secret consideration to devest you of these so needfull qualifications : But whensoever your errors , superstitions and impieties come into my mind , ( and besides the generall bonds of humanity and Christianity , my own particular obligations to many of you , such and so great , that you cannot perish without a part of my selfe , ) my only comfort is amidst these agonies , that the Doctrine and practise too of repentance , is yet remaining in your Church : And that though you put on a face of confidence of your innocence in point of Doctrine , yet you will be glad to stand in the eye of mercy as well as your fellowes , and not be so stout , as to refuse either Gods pardon or the Kings . 6 But for the present , Protestancy is called to the barre , and though not sentenc'd by you to death without mercy , yet arraigned of so much naturall malignity ( if not corrected by ignorance or contrition ) as to be in it selfe , destructive of Salvation . Which controversy I am content to dispute with you , tying my selfe to follow the Rules prescribed by you in your Preface . Only I am to remember you , that the adding of this limitation ( in it selfe ) hath made this a new Question ; and that this is not the conclusion for which you were charged with want of Charity . But that whereas according to the grounds of your own Religion , Protestants may dye in their supposed errors , either with excusable ignorance , or with Contrition , and if they doe so may be saved , you still are peremptory in pronouncing them damn'd . Which position supposing your Doctrine true , and ours false , as it is farre from Charity , ( whose essential character it is , to judge and hope the best , ) so I beleeve that I shall cleerly evince this new , but more moderate assertion of yours to be farre from verity , & that it is Popery , and not Protestancy , which in it selfe destroies Salvation . 7 Ad § 7. & 8. In your gradation I shall rise so farre with you as to grant , that Christ founded a visible Church , stored with all helps necessary to salvation , particularly with sufficient meanes to beget and conserve faith , to maintain unity , and compose schismes , to discover and condemne haeresies , and to determine all controversies in Religion , which were necessary to be determin'd . For all these purposes , he gave at the begining ( as we may see in the Ep. to the Ephesians ) Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors , and Doctours : who by word of mouth taught their comtemporaries , and by writings ( wrot indeed by some , but approved by all of them ) taught their Christian posterity to the worlds end , how all these ends , and that which is the end of all these ends , Salvation , is to be archieved . And these meanes the Providence of God hath still preserved , and so preserved , that they are sufficient for all these intents . I say sufficient , though , through the malice of men , not alwaies effectuall , for that the same meanes may be sufficient for the compassing an end , and not effectuall , you must not deny , who hold that God gives to all men sufficient meanes of Salvation , and yet that all are not sav'd . I said also , sufficient to determine all controversies , which were necessary to be determin'd . For if some controversies may for many ages be undetermined , and yet in the mean while men be sav'd ; why should , or how can the Churches being furnisht with effectuall meanes to determine all Controversies in Religion be necessary to Salvation , the end it selfe , to which these meanes are ordained being as experience shewes not necessary ? Plain sense will teach every man , that the necessity of the meanes must alwaies be measured by , and can never exceed the necessity of the end . As if eating be necessary , only that I may live , then certainly if I have no necessity to live , I have no necessity to eat . If I have no need to be at London , I have no need of a horse to carry me thither . If I have no need to fly , I have no need of wings . Answer me then I pray directly , and categorically , Is it necessary that all Controversies in Religion should be determin'd , or is it not ? If it be , why is the question of Predetermination , of the immaculate conception , of the Popes indirect power in temporalties , so long undetermined ? if not , what is it but hypocrisy to pretend such great necessity of such effectuall meanes , for the atchieving that end , which is it selfe not necessary . Christians therefore have and shall have means sufficient ( though not alwaies effectuall ) to determine not all controversies but all necessary to be determined . I proceed on farther with you , and grant that this meanes to decide controversies in Faith & Religion must be indued with an Vniversall infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a divine truth . For if it may be false in any one thing of this nature , in any thing which God requires men to believe , we can yeeld unto it but a wavering and fearfull assent in any thing . These grounds therefore I grant very readily , and give you free leave to make your best advantage of them . And yet , to deal truly , I doe not perceive how from the denyall of any of them it would follow that Faith is Opinion : or from the granting them , that it is not so . But for my part , whatsoever clamour you have raised against me , I think no otherwise of the Nature of Faith , I mean Historicall Faith , then generally both Protestants and Papists doe ; for I conceive it an assent to divine Revelations upon the authority of the revealer . Which though in many things it differ from opinion , ( as commonly the word opinion is understood ) yet in some things , I doubt not but you will confesse , that it agrees with it . As first , that as Opinion is an Assent , so is faith also . Secondly that as Opinion so Faith , is alwaies built upon lesse evidence then that of sense or science . Which assertion you not only grant but mainly contend for in your sixt Ch. Thirdly and lastly , that as Opinion , so Faith admits degrees ; and that as there may be a strong and weak Opinion , so there may be a strong and weak Faith. These things if you wil grant ( as sure if you be in your right mind you will not deny any of them ) I am well contented that this ill●sounding word , Opinion , should be discarded , and that among the Intellectuall habits you should seek out some other Genus for Faith. For I will never contend with any man about words , who grants my meaning . 8 But though the essence of Faith exclude not all weaknesse and imperfection , yet may it be enquired , whether any certainty of Faith , under the highest degree may be sufficient to please God and attain salvation . Whereunto I answer , that though men are unreasonable , God requires not any thing but Reason . They will not be pleas'd without a down weight , but God is contented if the scale be turn'd . They pretend , that heavenly things cannot be seen to any purpose , but by the mid-day light : But God will be satisfied , if we receive any degree of light which makes us leave the works of darknesse and walk as children of the light . They exact a certainty of Faith above that of sence or science , God desires only that we believe the conclusion , as much as the premises deserve , that the strength of our Faith be equall or proportionable to the credibility of the motives to it . Now though I have and ought to have an absolute certainty of this Thesis , All which God reveales for truth is true , being a proposition that may be demonstrated , or rather so evident to any one that understands it that it needs it not ; Yet of this Hypothesis , That all the Articles of our Faith were reveal'd by God , we cannot ordinarily have any rationall and acquired certainty , more then morall , founded upon these considerations : First that the goodnesse of the precepts of Christianity , and the greatnesse of the promises of it , shewes it , of all other Religions , most likely to come from the fountain of goodnesse . And then that a constant , famous and very generall Tradition , so credible , that no wise man doubts of any other , which hath but the fortieth part of the credibility of this , such and so credible a Tradition , tell us , that God himselfe hath set his Hand and Seale to the truth of this Doctrine , by doing great , and glorious , and frequent miracles in confirmation of it . Now our faith is an assent to this conclusion , that the Doctrine of Christianity is true , which being deduc'd from the former Thesis , which is Metaphysically certain , and from the former Hypothesis , whereof we can have but a Morall certainty , we cannot possibly by naturall meanes be more certain of it then of the weaker of the premises ; as a River will not rise higher then the fountaine from which it flowes . For the conclusion alwaies followes the worser part , if there be any worse : and must be Negative , Particular , Contingent , or but Morally certain , if any of the Propositions , from whence it is deriv'd be so : Neither can we be certain of it in the highest degree , unlesse we be thus certain of all the principles whereon it is grounded . As a man cannot goe or stand strongly , if either of his leggs be weak . Or as a building cannot be stable , if any one of the necessary pillars thereof be infirme and instable . Or as , If a message be brought me , from a man of absolute credit with me , but by a messenger that is not so , my confidence of the truth of the Relation , cannot but be rebated and lessened , by my diffidence in the Relatour . 9 Yet all this I say not as if I doubted , that the spirit of God , being implor'd by devout and humble prayer and syncere obedience , may , and will be degrees , advance his servants higher , and give them a certainty of adherence , beyond their certainty of evidence . But what God gives as a reward to believers , is one thing : and what he requires of all men , as their duty , is another : and what he will accept of out of grace and favour , is yet another . To those that believe and live according to thir faith , he gives by degrees the spirit of obsignation and confirmation , which makes them know ( though how they know not ) what they did but believe : And to be as fully and resolutely assur'd of the Gospell of Christ , as those which heard it from Christ himselfe with their eares , which saw it with their eyes , which looked upon it , and whose hands handled the word of life . He requires of all , that their Faith should be ( as I have said ) proportionable to the motives and Reasons enforcing to it ; he will accept of the weakest and lowest degree of Faith , if it be living and effectuall unto true obedience . For he it is that will not quench the smoaking flaxe , nor break the bruised reed . He did not reject the prayer of that distressed man that cryed unto him , Lord I believe , Lord help my unbelief . He commands us to receive them that are weak in faith , and thereby declares that he receives them . And as nothing availes with him , but Faith which worketh by love : So any faith , if it be but as a grain of mustard seed , if it work by love , shall certainly avail with him and be accepted of him . Some experience makes mee fear , that the faith of considering and discoursing men , is like to be crack't with too much straining : And that being possessed with this false Principle , that it is in vain to believe the Gospell of Christ , with such a kind or degree of assent , as they yeeld to other matters of Tradition : And finding that their faith of it , is to them undiscernable , from the belief they give to the truth of other Stories ; are in danger either not to believe at all , thinking not at all as good as to no purpose , or else , though indeed they doe believe it , yet to think they doe not , and to cast themselves into wretched agonies and perplexities , as fearing they have not that , without which it is impossible to pleas God and obtain eternall happinesse . Consideration of this advantage , which the Divell probably may make of this Phancy , made me willing to insist somewhat largely upon the Refutation of it . 10 I returne now thither from whence I have digressed , and assure you , concerning the grounds afore-laid , which were , that there is a Rule of Faith , whereby controversies may be decided , which are necessary to be decided , and that this rule is universally infallible , That notwithstanding any opinion I hold , touching Faith , or any thing else , I may , and doe believe them , as firmely as you pretend to doe . And therefore you may build on , in Gods name , for by Gods helpe , I shall alwaies imbrace , whatsoever structure is naturally and rationally laid upon them , whatsoever conclusion may , to my understanding , be evidently deduced from them . You say , out of them it undeniably followes , That of two disagreeing in matter of Faith , the one cannot be saved , but by repentance or ignorance . I answere by distinction of those termes , two dissenting in a matter of Faith. For it may bee either in a thing which is indeed a matter of Faith , in the strictest sense , that is , something , the Beliefe whereof God requires under paine of damnation : And so the conclusion is true , though the Consequence of it from your former premisses either is none at all , or so obscure , that I can hardly discerne it . Or it may be as it often falls out concerning a thing which being indeed no matter of Faith , is yet overvalued by the Parties at variance , and esteemed to be so . And in this sense it is neither consequent nor true . The untruth of it I haue already declared in my examination of your Preface . The inconsequence of it is of it selfe evident ; for who ever heard of a wilder Collection then this — God hath provided meanes sufficient to decide all Controversies in Religion , necessary to be decided ; This meanes is universally infallible , Therefore of two , that differ in anything which they esteeme a matter of Faith , one cannot be saved . He that can finde any connection between these Propositions , I belieue will be able to finde good coherence between the deafe Plaintiffe's accusation , in the Greek Epigram , and the deafe Defendants Answer , and the deafe Iudges sentence ; And to contriue them all into a formall Categoricall Syllogisme . 11 Indeed if the matter in agitation were plainely decided , by this infallible meanes of deciding Controversies , and the Parties in variance knew it to be so , and yet would stand out in their dissention ; this were in one of them , direct opposition to the Testimonie of God , and undoubtedly a damnable sinne . But if you take the liberty to suppose what you please , you may very easily conclude what you list . For who is so foolish as to grant you these unreasonable Postulates , that every emergent Controversie of Faith is plainly decided by the means of decision which God hath appointed , and that of the Parties lititigant , one is alwaies such a convicted Recusant as you pretend ! Certainly , if you say so , having no better warrant then you haue , or can haue for it , this is more proper and formall uncharitablenesse , then ever was charg'd upon you . Me thinks , with much more Reason , and much more Charity , you might suppose , that many of these Controversies which are now disputed among Christians ( all which professe themselues lovers of Christ , and truly desirous to knowe his will and doe it ( are either not decidable by that meanes which God hath provided , and so not necessary to be decided : Or if they be , yet not so plainly and evidently , as to oblige all men to hold one way : or Lastly , if decidable , and evidently decided , yet you may hope that the erring part , by reason of some veile before his eyes , some excusable ignorance or unavoidable preiudice , does not see the Question to be decided against him , and so opposes not that which He doth know to be the word of God , but only that which You know to be so , and which hee might know , were he void of prejudice . Which is a fault I confesse , but a fault which is incident even to good and honest men very often : and not of such a gigantique disposition as you make it , to fly directly upon God Almighty , and to giue him the lye to his face . 12 Ad § . 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. In all this long discourse you only tell us what you will doe , but doe nothing . Many Positions there are , but proofes of them you offer none , but reserue them to the Chapters following ; and there in their proper places they shall be examined . The summe of all your Assumpts collected by your selfe , § . 16 is this . That the infallible meanes of determining Controversies , is the visible Church . That he distinction of points Fundamentall , and not Fundamentall , maketh nothing to the present Question . That to say the Creed containeth all Fundamentals , is neither pertinent nor true . That whosoever persist in Division from the Communion and Faith of the Roman Church are guilty of Schisme and Heresie . That in regard of the Precept of Charity towards ones selfe , Protestants are in state of sinne , while they remaine divided from the Romane Church . To all these Assertions I will content my selfe for the present to oppose this one , That not one of them all is true . Only I may not omit to tell you , that if the first of them were as true as the Pope himselfe desires it should be , yet the corollary which you deduce from it , would be utterly inconsequent , That whosoever denies any point propos'd by the Church , is iniurious to Gods Divine Maiestie , as if He could deceiue , or be deceived . For though your Church were indeed as Infallible a Propounder of Divine Truths as it pretends to be , yet if it appear'd not to me to be so , I might very well belieue God most true , & your Church most false . As though the Gospell of S. Mathew be the word of God , yet if I neither knew it to be so , nor believed it , I might belieue in God , and yet think that Gospell a Fable . Hereafter therefore I must entreat you to remember , that our being guilty of this impiety , depends not only upon your being , but upon our knowing that you are so . Neither must you argue thus , The Church of Rome is the Infallible Propounder of Divine Verities , therefore he that opposes Her calls Gods Truth in Question : But thus rather ; The Church of Rome is so , and Protestants know it to be so , therefore in opposing her , they impute to God , that either he deceiues them , or is deceived himselfe . For as I may deny something which you upō your knowledge have affirm'd , & yet never disparage your honesty , if I never knew that you affirm'd it : So I may bee undoubtedly certaine of Gods Omniscience , and Veracitie , & yet doubt of something which he hath revealed , provided I doe not knowe , nor belieue that he hath revealed it . So , that though your Church be the appointed witnesse of Gods Revelations yet untill you know , that we know she is so , you cannot without foule calumnie impute to us , That we charge God blasphemously with deceiving , or being deceived . You will say perhaps , That this is directly consequent from our Doctrine , That the Church may erre , which is directed by God in all her proposalls . True , if we knew it to be directed by him , otherwise not ; much lesse if we belieue , and know the contrary . But then if it were consequent from our opinion , haue you so little Charitie as to say , that men are iustly chargeable with all the consequences of their Opinions ; Such Consequences , I mean , as they doe not owne but disclaim , and if there were a necessity of doing either , would much rather forsake their Opinion then imbrace these Consequences ? What opinion is there that draws after it such a train of portentous blasphemies , as that of the Dominicans , by the judgement of the best Writers of your own Order ? And will you say now that the Dominicans are justly chargable with all these blasphemies ? If not , seeing our case ( take it at the worst ) is but the same , why should not your judgement of us be the same ? I appeale to all those Protestants that haue gone over to your side ; whether when they were most averse from it , they did ever deny or doubt of Gods omniscience or Veracitie ; whether they did ever belieue , or were taught , that God did deceiue them or was deceiued himselfe . Nay , I provoke to you your selfe , & desire you to deale truly , & to tell Us whether you doe in your heart belieue , that we doe indeed not belieue the eternall Veracitie of the eternall Verity ? And if you judge so strangely of us , having no better ground for it , then you haue or can haue , wee shall not need any farther proofe of your uncharitablenes towards us , this being the extremity of true uncharitablenesse . If not , then I hope having no other ground but this ( which sure is none at all ) to pronounce us damnable Heretiques , you will cease to doe so ; and hereafter ( as , if your ground be true , you may doe with more truth and Charity ) collect thus , They only erre damnably , who oppose what they know God hath testified , But Protestants sure doe not oppose what they knowe God hath testified , at least we cannot with Charity say they doe , Therefore they either doe not erre damnably , or with charity we cannot say they doe so . 13 Ad § 17. Protestants ( you say ) according to their own grounds must hold that of Persons contrary in whatsoever point of beleife one part only can be saved , therefore it is strangely done of them to charge Papists with want of Charity for holding the same . The consequence I acknowledge , but wonder much what it should be that laies upon Protestants any necessity to doe so ! You tell us it is their holding Scripture the sole Rule of Faith : for this , you say , obligeth them to pronounce them damn'd , that oppose any least point delivered in Scripture . This I grant , If they oppose it after sufficient declaration , so that either they know it to be contain'd in Scripture , or have no just probable Reason , and which may moue an honest man to doubt whether or no it be there contained . For to oppose in the first case in a man that beliues the Scripture to be the word of God , is to giue God the lye . To oppose in the second , is to be obstinate against Reason , and therefore a sinne though not so great as the former . But then this is nothing to the purpose of the necessity of damning all those that are of contrary beliefe ; and that for these Reasons . First , because the contrary beliefe may be touching a point not at all mentioned in Scripture ; and such points , though indeed they be not matters of Faith , yet by men in variance are often over-valued and esteem'd to be so . So that , though it were damnable to oppose any point contain'd in Scripture ; yet Persons of a contrary beliefe ( as Victor and Polycrates , S. Cyprian , and Stephen ) might both be saved , because their contrary beliefe was not touching any point contained in Scripture . Secondly , because the contrary beliefe may be about the sense of some place of Scripture which is ambiguous , and with probabilitie capable of diverse senses ; and in such cases it is no marvell , and sure no sinne , if severall men goe severall waies . Thirdly because the contrary beliefe may bee concerning points wherein Scripture may with so great probabilitie bee alleaged on both sides , ( which is a sure note of a point not necessary ) that men of honest and upright hearts , true lovers of God and of truth , such as desire , aboue all things , to know Gods will and to doe it , may , without any fault at all , some goe one way , and some another , & some ( & those as good men as either of the former ) suspend their judgements , and expect some Elias to solue doubts , and reconcile repugnancies . Now in all such Questions one side or other ( which soever it is ) holds that which indeed is opposite to the sense of the Scripture , which God intended ; for it is impossible that God should intend Contradictions . But then this intended sense is not so fully declared , but that they which oppose it may verily belieue that they indeed maintaine it , and haue great shew of reason to induce them to belieue so ; and therefore are not to be damn'd , as men opposing that which they either knowe to be a truth delivered in Scripture , or haue no probable Reason to belieue the contrary ; but rather in Charity to be acquitted and absolv'd , as men who endeavour to finde the Truth , but fayle of it through humane frailty . This ground being laid , the Answer to your ensuing Interrogatories , which you conceiue impossible , is very obvious & easie . 14 To the first . Whether it be not in any man a grievous sinne to deny any one Truth containd'd in holy Writ ? I answer , Yes , if he knewe it to be so , or haue no probable Reason to doubt of it : otherwise not . 15 To the second . Whether there be in such deniall any distinction between Fundamētall & not Fundamētall sufficient to excuse from Heresie ? I answer , Yes , There is such a Distinction . But the Reason is , because these points , either in themselues , or by accident , are Fundamentall , which are evidently contain'd in Scripture , to him that knowes them to be so : Those not Fundamentall which are there-hence deducible but probably only , not evidently . 16 To the third . Whether it be not impertinent to alleage the Creed as containing all Fundamentall points of Faith , as if believing it alone wee were at Libertie to deny all other Points of Scripture ? I answer , It was never alleag'd to any such purpose ; but only as a sufficient , or rather more then a sufficient Summarie of those points of Faith , which were of necessity to be believed actually and explicitely ; and that onely of such which were meerely and purely Credenda , and not Agenda . 17 To the fourth , drawn as a Corollary from the former , Whether this be not to say , that of Persons contrary in beliefe , one part only can bee saved ? I answer , By no meanes . For they may differ about points not contain'd in Scripture : They may differ about the sense of some ambiguous Texts of Scripture : They may differ about some Doctrines , for and against which Scriptures may be alleadged with so great probability , as may justly excuse either Part from Haeresie , and a selfe condemning obstinacy . And therefore , though D. Potter doe not take it ill , that you believe your selves may be sav'd in your Religion ; yet notwithstanding all that hath yet been pretended to the contrary , hee may justly condemne you , and that out of your own principles , of uncharitable presumption , for affirming as you doe , that no man can be saved out of it . CHAP. II. What is that meanes , whereby the revealed truths of God are conveyed to our Vnderstanding , and which must determine Controversies in Faith and Religion . OF our estimation , respect , and reverence to holy Scripture even Protestants themselves doe in fact give testimony , while they possesse it from us , and take it upon the integrity of our custody . No cause imaginable could avert our will from giving the function of supreme and sole Iudge to holy writ , if both the thing were not impossible in it selfe , and if both reason and experience did not convince our understanding , that by this assertion Contentions are increased , and not ended . We acknowledge holy Scripture to be a most perfect rule , for as much as a writing can be a Rule : We only deny that it excludes either divine Tradition , though it be unwritten , or an externall Iudge to keep , to propose , to interpret in a true , Orthodoxe , and Catholique sense . Every single book , every Chapter , yea every period of holy Scripture is infallibly true , and wants no due perfection . But must we therefore inferre , that all other Books of Scripture , are to be excluded , least by addition of them , we may seem to derogate from the perfection of the former ? When the first Bookes of the old and new Testament were written , they did not exclude unwritten Traditions , nor the Authority of the Church to decide Controversies ; and who hath then so altered their nature , and filled them with such jealousies , as that now they cannot agree for fear of mutuall disparagement ? What greater wrong is it for the written Word , to be compartner now with the unwritten , then for the unwritten , which was once alone , to be afterward joyned with the written ? Who ever heard , that sto commend the fidelity of a Keeper , were to disauthorize the thing committed to his custody ? Or that , to extoll the integrity and knowledge , and to avouch the necessity of a Iudge in suits of Law , were to deny perfection in the Law ? Are there not in Common wealths besides the Lawes written & unwritten , customes , Iudges appointed to declare both the one , & the other , as severall occasions may require ? 2 That the Scripture alone cannot be Iudge in Controversies of faith , we gather very cleerly , From the quality of a writing in generall : From the nature of holy Writ in particular , which must be beheved as true , and infallible : From the Editions , and translations of it : From the difficulty to understand it without hazard of Errour : From the inconveniences that must follow upon the ascribing of sole Iudicature to it : and finally from the Confessions of our Adversaries . And on the other side , all these difficulties ceasing , and all other qualities requisite to a Iudge concurring in the visible Church of Christ our Lord , we must conclude , that she it is , to whom in doubts concerning Faith and Religion , all Christians ought to have recourse . 3 The name , notion , nature , and properties of a Iudge cannot in common reason agree to any meere writing , which , be it otherwise in its kind , never so highly qualified with sanctity and infallibility ; yet it must ever be , as all writings are , deaf , dumb , and inanimate . By a Iudge , all wise men understand a Person endued with life , and reason , able to hear ; to examine , to declare his mind to the disagreeing parties , in such sort as that each one may know whether the sentence be in favour of his cause , or against his pretence , and he must be appliable , and able to doe all this , as the diversity of Controversies , persons , occasions , and circumstances may require , There is a great and plain distinction betwixt a Iudge and a Rule . For as in a Kingdome , the Iudge hath his rule to follow which are the received Lawes and Customes ; so are not they fit or able to declare , or be Iudges to themselves , but that office must belong to a living Iudge . The holy Scripture may be , and is a Rule , but cannot be a Iudge , because it being alwaies the same , cannot declare it selfe any one time , or upon any one occasion more particularly then upon any other ; and let it be read over an hundred times , it will be still the same , and no more fit alone to terminate controversies in faith , then the Law would be to end suits , if it were given over to the phancy , and glosse of every single man. 4 This difference betwixt a Iudge and a Rule , D. Potter perceived , when more then once , having stiled the Scripture a Iudge , by way of correcting that terme , he addes , or rather a Rule , because he knew that an inanimate writing could not be a Iudge . From hence also it was , that though Protestants in their begining affirmed Scripture alone to be the Iudge of Controversies ; yet upon a more advised reflection , they changed the phrase , and said , that not Scripture , but the Holy Ghost speaking in Scripture , is Iudge in Controversies . A difference without a disparity . The holy Ghost speaking only in Scripture is no more intelligible to us , then the Scripture in which he speaks : as a man speaking only Latin , can be no better understood , then the tongue wherein he speaketh . And therefore to say , a Iudge is necessary for deciding controversies , about the meaning of Scripture is as much as to say , he is necessary to decide what the Holy Ghost speakes in Scripture . And it were a conceyt , equally foolish and pernitious , if one should seek to take away all Iudges in the Kingdome , upon this nicety , that albeit Lawes cannot be Iudges , yet the Law-maker speaking in the Law , may performe that Office ; as if the Law-maker speaking in the Law , were with more perspicuity understood , then the Law whereby he speaketh . 5 But though some writing were granted to have a priviledge , to declare it selfe upon supposition that it were maintained in being , and preserved entire from corruptions ; yet it is manifest , that no writing can conserve it selfe , nor can complaine , or denounce the falsifier of it ; and therefore it stands in need of some watchfull and not erring eye , to guard it , by meanes of whose assured vigilancy , we may undoubtedly receive it syncere and pure . 6 And suppose it could defend it selfe from corruption , how could it assure us that it selfe were Canonicall , and of infallible verity ? By saying so ? Of this very affirmation , there will remain the same Question still ; how it can prove it selfe to be infallibly true ? Neither can there ever be an end of the like multiplied demands , till we rest in the externall Authority of some person or persons bearing witnes to the world , that such , or such a book is Scripture : and yet upon this point according to Protestants all other Controversies in faith depend . 7 That Scripture cannot assure us , that it selfe is Canonicall Scripture , is acknowledged by some Protestants in expresse words , and by all of them in deeds . M. Hooker , whom D. Potter ranketh a among men of great learning and Iudgement , saith : of things b necessary , the very chiefest is to know what books we are to esteem holy ; which point is confessed impossible for the Scripture it selfe to teach . And this he proveth by the same argument , which we lately used , saying thus : It is not c the word of God which doth , or possibly can , assure us , that we doe well to think it his word . For if any one book of Scripture did give testimony of all , yet still that Scripture which giveth testimony to the rest , would require another Scripture to give credit ●nto it . Neither could we come to any pause whereon to rest , unlesse besides Scripture , there were something which might assure us &c. And this he acknowledgeth to be the d Church . By the way . If , Of things necessary the very chiefest cannot possibly be taught by Scripture , as this man of so great learning and judgement affirmeth , and demonstratively proveth ; how can the Protestant Clergy of England subscribe to their sixt Article ? Wherein it is said of the Scripture : Whatsoever is not read therein , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any man , that it should be believed as an Article of the faith , or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation : and concerning their belief and profession of this Article , they are particularly examined when they be ordained Priests and Bishops . With Hooker , his defendant Covell doth punctually agree . Whitaker likewise confesseth , that the question about Canonicall Scriptures , is defined to us , not by testimony of the private spirit , which ( faith he ) being private and secret , is e unfit to teach and refell others ; but ( as he acknowledgeth ) by the f Ecclesiasticall Tradition : An argument ( saith he ) whereby may be argued , and convinced , what books be Canonicall , and what be not . Luther saith : This g indeed the Church hath , that she can discerne the word of God , from the word of men : as Augustine confesseth , that he believed the Gospell , being moved by the authority of the Church , which did preach this to be the Gospell . Fulk teacheth , that the Church h hath judgement to discerne true writings from counterfeit , and the word of God from the writing of men , and that this iudgement she hath not of her selfe , but of the Holy Ghost . And to the end that you my not be ignorant , from what Church you must receive Scriptures , hear your first Patriarch Luther , speaking against them , who ( as he saith ) brought in Anabaptisme , that so they might despight the Pope . Verily ( saith he ) these i men build upon a weak foundation . For by this means they ought to deny the whole Scripture , and the Office of Preaching . For , all these we have from the Pope : otherwise we must go make a new Scripture . 8 But now in deeds , they all make good , that without the Churches authority , no certainty can be had what Scripture is Canonicall , while they cannot agree in assigning the Canon of holy Scripture . Of the Epistle of S. Iames , Luther hath these words : The k Epistle of Iames is contentious ; swelling , dry , strawy , and unworthy of an Apostolicall Spirit . Which censure of Luther , Illyricus acknowledgeth and maintaineth . Kemnitins teacheth , that the second Epistle l of Peter , the second and third of Iohn , the Epistle to the Hebrewes , the Epistle of Iames , the Epistle of Iude , and the Apocalyps of Iohn are Apocryphall , as not having sufficient Testimony m of their authority , and therefore that nothing in controversy can be proved out of these n Bookes . The same is taught by divers other Lutherans ; and if some other amongst them , be of a contrary opinion since Luther's time , I wonder what new infallible ground they can alleage , why they leaue their Master , and so many of his prime Schollers ? I kn●w no better ground , then because they may with as much freedome abandon him , as hee was bold to alter that Canon of Scripture , which he found receaved in Gods Church . 9 What Bookes of Scripture the Protestants of England hold for Canonicall , is not easie to affirme . In their sixt Article they say In the name of the holy Scripture , who doe understand those Canonicall Books of the Old and New Testament , of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church . What meane they by these words ? That by the Churches consent they are assured what Scriptures be Canonicall ? This were to make the Church Iudge , and not Scriptures alone . Doe they only understand the agreement of the Church to be a probable inducement ? Probability is no sufficient ground for an infallible assent of faith . By this rule ( of whose authority was NEVER any doubt in the Church ) the whole book of Esther must quit the Canon , because some in the Church haue excluded it from the Canon , as o Melito Asianus , p Athanasius , and q Gregory Nazianzen . And Luther ( if Protestanis will be content that he be in the Church ) saith : The Iewes r place the book of Esther in the Canon , which yet , if I might be Iudge , doth rather deserve to bee put out of the Canon . And of Ecclesiastes he saith : This s book is not full ; there are in it many abrupt things : he wants boots and spurres , that is , he hath no perfect sentence , hee rides upon a long reed like me when I was in the Monastery . And much more is to be read in him : who t saith further , that the said book was not written by Salomon , but by Syrach in the time of the Machabees , and that it is like to the Talmud ( the Iewes bible ) out of many bookes heaped into one worke , perhaps out of the Library of king Ptolomeus . And further he saith , that u he doth not belieue all to haue been done as there is set downe . And he reacheth the w booke of Iob to be as it were an argument for a fable ( or Comedy ) to set before us an example of Patience . And he x delivers this generall censure of the Prophets Books : The Sermons of no Prophet , were written whole , and perfect , but their Disciples , and Auditors snatched , now one sentence , and then another , and so put them all into one book , and by this meanes the Bible was conserved . If this were so , the Books of the Prophets , being not written by themselues , but promiscuously , and casually , by their Disciples , will soone be called in question . Are not these errours of Luther , fundamentall ? and yet if Protestants deny the infallibility of the Church , upon what certaine ground can they disproue these Lutherian , and Luciferian blasphemies ? ô godly Reformer of the Roman Church ! But to returne to our English Canon of Scripture . In the New Testament by the aboue mentioned rule ( of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church ) divers Books of the New Testament must be discanonized , to wit , all those of which some Ancients haue doubted , and those which divers Lutherans haue of late denied . It is worth the observation how the before-mentioned sixt Article , doth specify by name all the Books of the Old Testament which they hold for Canonicall ; but those of the New Testament , as they are commonly receaved , we doe recieue , and account them Canonicall . The mystery is easily to be unfolded . If they had descended to particulars , they must haue contradicted some of their chiefest Brethren . As they are commonly recieued , &c. I aske : By whom ? By the Church of Rome : Then , by the same reason they must receiue divers Books of the Old Testament , which they reject . By Lutherans ? Then with Lutherans they may deny some Books of the New Testament . If it bee the greater , or lesse number of voices , that must cry up , or down , the Canon of Scripture , our Roman Canon will prevaile : and among Protestants the Certainty of their Faith must be reduced to an Vncertaine Controversie of Fact , whether the number of those who reject , or of those others who recieue such and such Scriptures , bee greater . Their Faith must alter according to yeares , and daies . When Luther first appeared , he , and his Disciples were the greater number of that new Church ; and so this claime ( Of being commonly received ) stood for them , till Zuinglius and Calvin grew to some equall , or greater number then that of the Lutherans , and then this rule of ( Commonly received ) will canonize their Canon against the Lutherans . I would gladly know , why in the former part of their Article , they say both of the Old and New Testament : In the name of the holy Scripture , we doe understand those Canonicall Books of the Old and New Testament , of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church . and in the latter part , speaking againe of the New Testament , they giue a farre different rule , saying : All the Books of the New Testament , as they are commonly received , we doe receiue , and account them Canonicall . This I say is a rule much different from the former ( Of whose authority was NEVER any doubt in the Church . ) For some Books might be said to be Commonly received , although they were sometime doubted of by some . If to be Commonly received , passe for a good rule to know the Canon of the New Testament ; why not of the Old ? Aboue all we desire to know , upon what infallible ground in some Bookes they agree with us against Luther , and divers principall Lutherans , and in others jump with Luther against us ? But seeing they disagree among themselues , it is evident that they haue no certaine rule to know the Canon of Scripture , in assigning whereof some of them must of necessity erre , because of contradictory propositions both cannot be true . 10 Moreover the letters , syllables , words , phrase , or matter contained in holy Scripture haue no necessary , or naturall connection with divine Revelation or Inspiration : and therefore by seeing , reading , or understanding them , we cannot inferre that they proceed from God , or be confirmed by divine authoritie , as because Creatures involve a necessary relation , connection , and dependance on their Creator , Philosophers may by the light of naturall reason , demonstrate the existence of one prime cause of all things . In Holy Wr●● there are innumerable truths not surpassing the spheare of humane wit , which are , or may be delivered by Pagan Writers , in the selfe same words and phrase as they are in Scripture . And as for some truths peculiar to Christians , ( for Example , the mystery of the blessed Trinitie &c. ) The only setting them down in Writing is not enough to be assured that such a Writing is the undoubted word of God : otherwise some sayings of Plato , Tris●egistus , Sybils , Ovid , &c. must be esteemed Canonicall Scripture , because they fall upon some truths proper to Christian Religion . The internall light , and inspiration which directed and moved the Authors of Canonicall Scriptures , is a hidden Qualitie infused into their understanding and will , and hath no such particular sensible influence into the externall Writing , that in it we can discover , or from it demonstrate any such secret light and inspiration ; and therefore to be assured that such a Writing is divine we cannot know from it selfe alone , but by some other extrinsecall authority . 11 And here we appeale to any man of judgement , whether it be not a vaine brag of some Protestants to tell us , that they wot full well what is Scripture , by the light of Scripture it selfe , or ( as D. Potter words it ) by y that glorious beame of divine light which shines therein ; even as our eye distinguisheth light from darknesse , without any other help then light it selfe ; and as our eare knowes a voice , by the voice it selfe alone . But this vanity is refuted , by what we said even now ; that the externall Scripture hath no apparent or necessary connection with divine inspiration , or revelation . Will D. Poiter hold all his Bretheren for blinde men , for not seeing that glorious beam of divine light which shines in Scripture , about which they cannot agree ? Corporall light may be discerned by it selfe alone , as being evident , proportionate , and connaturall to our faculty of seeing . That Scripture is Divine , and inspired by God , is a truth exceeding the naturall capacity and compasse of mans understanding , to us obscure , and to be believed by divine faith , which according to the Apostle is ; argumentum z non apparentium ; an argument , or conviction , of things not evident : and therefore no wonder if Scripture doe not manifest it selfe by it selfe alone , but must require some other meanes for applying it to our understanding . Neverthelesse their own similitudes and instances , make against themselues . For suppose a man had never read , or heard of Sunne , Moone , Fire , Candle , &c. and should bee brought to behold a light , yet in such sort as that the Agent , or Cause efficient from which it proceeded , were kept hidden from him ; could such a one , by only beholding the light , certainly know , whether it were produced by the Sunne , or Moone & c. ? Or if one heare a voice , and had never known the speaker , could he know from whom in particular that voice proceeded ? They who look upon Scripture , may well see , that some one wrote it , but that it was written by divine inspiration , how shall they know ? Nay , they cannot so much as know who wrote it , unlesse they first know the writer , and what hand he writes : as likewise I cannot know whose voice it is which I heare , unlesse I first both know the person who speakes , and with what voice he useth to speak ; and yet even all this supposed , I may perhaps be deceaved . For there may be voices so like , and Hand so counterfeited , that men may be deceaved by them , as birds were by the grapes of that skilfull Painter . Now since Protestants affirme knowledge concerning God as our supernaturall end , must be taken from Scripture , they cannot in Scripture alone discerne that it is his voice , or writing , because they cannot know from whom a writing , or vioce proceeds , unlesse first they know the person who speake● ' , or writeth . Nay I say more : By Scripture alone , they cannot so much as know , that any person doth in it , or by it , speak any thing at all : because one may write without intent to signifie , or affirme any thing , but onely to set downe , or as it were paint , such characters , syllables , and words , as men are wont to set copies , not caring what the signification of the words imports : or as one transcribes a writing which himselfe understands not ; or when one writes what another dictates , and in other such cases , wherein it is cleare , that the writer speakes , or signifies nothing in such his writing ; and therefore by it we cannot heare , or understand his voice . With what certainty then can any man affirme , that by Scripture it selfe they can see , that the writers did intend to signifie any thing at all ; that they were Apostles , or other Canonicall Authors ; that they wrote their own sense , and not what was dictated by some other man ; and finally , and especially , that they wrote by the infallible direction of the Holy Ghost ? 12 But let us be liberall , and for the present suppose ( not grant ) that Scripture is , like to corporall light , by it selfe alone able to determine , and moue our understanding to assent ; yet the similitude proues against themselues . For light is not visible , except to such as haue eyes , which are not made by the light , but must be presupposed as produced by some other cause . And therefore , to hold the similitude , Scripture can be cleare onely to those who are endued with the eye of faith ; or , as D. Potter aboue cited saith , to all that haue a eyes to discerne the shining beames thereof ; that is , to the believer , as immediatly after he speaketh . Faith then must not originally proceed from Scripture , but is to be presupposed , before we can see the light thereof ; and consequently there must be some other meanes precedent to Scripture to beget Faith , which can be no other then the Church . 13 Others affirme , that they know Canonicall Scriptures to be such , by the Title of the Bookes . But how shall we know such Inscriptions , or Titles to be infallibly true ? From this their Answere our argument is strengthened , because divers Apocryphall writings have appeared , under the Titles , and Names of sacred Authors , as the Gospell of Thomas mentioned by b S. Augustine : the Gospell of Peter , which the Nazaraei did use , as c Theodoret witnesseth , with which Seraphion a Catholique Bishop , was for some time deceived , as may be read in d Eusebius who also speaketh of the Apocalyps of e Peter . The like may be said of the Gospells of Barnabas , Bartholomew , and other such writings specified by Pope f Gelasius . Protestants reject likewise some part of Esther and Daniel , which bear the same Titles with the rest of those Bookes , as also both we , and they hold for Apochryphall , the third and fourth Bookes which goe under the name of Esdras , and yet both of us receive his first and second book . Wherefore Titles are not sufficient assurances what bookes be Canonicall : which h D. Covell acknowledgeth in these words : It is not the word of God , which doth , or possibly can assure us , that we doe well to think it is the word of God : the first outward motion leading men so to esteem of the Scripture , is the Authority of Gods Church , which teacheth us to receive Marks Gospell , who was not an Apostle , and to refuse the Gospell of Thomas who was an Apostle : and to retain Lukes Gospell who saw not Christ , and to reiect the Gospell of Nicodemus who saw him . 14 Another Answer , or rather Objection they are wont to bring : That the Scripture being a principle needs no proof among Christians . So i D. Potter . But this is either a plain begging of the question , or manifestly untrue , and is directly against their own doctrine , and practise . If they mean , that Scripture is one of those principles , which being the first , and the most known in all Sciences , cannot be demonstrated by other Principles , they suppose that which is in question , whether there be not some principle ( for example , the Church ) whereby we may come to the knowledge of Scripture . If they intend , that Scripture is a Principle , but not the first , and most known in Christianity , then Scripture may be proved . For principles , that are not the first , not known of themselves , may , and ought to be proved , before we can yeild assent , either to them , or to other verities depending on them . It is repugnant to their own doctrine , and practise , in as much as they are wont to affirme , that one part of Scripture may be known to be Canonicall , and may be interpreted by another . And since every Scripture is a principle sufficient , upon which to ground divine faith , they must grant , that one Principle may , and sometime must be proved by another . Yea this their Answer , upon due ponderation , falls out to prove , what we affirme . For since all Principles cannot be proved , we must ( that our labour may not be endlesse ) come at length to rest in some principle ; which may not require any other proof . Such is Tradition , which involves an evidence of fact , and from hand to hand , and age to age , bringing us up to the times , and Persons of the Apostles , and our Saviour himselfe cometh to be confirmed by all those miracles , and other arguments , whereby they convinced their doctrine to be true . Wherefore the ancient Fathers avouch that we must receive the sacred Canon upon the credit of Gods Church . k S. Athanasius saith , that only four Gospels are to be received , because the Canons of the Holy , and Catholique Church have so determined . The third Councell of l Carthage having set down the Bookes of holy Scripture , gives the reason , because , We have received from our Fathers that these are to be read in the Church . 8. Augustine m speaking of the Acts of the Apostles , saith : To which book I must give credit , if I give credit to the Gospell , because the Catholique Church doth a like recommend to me both these Bookes . And in the same place he hath also these words : I would not believe the Gospell , unles the authority of the Catholique Church did move me . A saying so plain , that Zuinglius , is forced to cry out : Heere I n implore your equity to speak freely , whether this saying of Augustine seem not overbold , or else unadvisedly to have fallen from him . 15 But suppose they were assured what Books were Canonicall , this will little avail them , unles they be likewise certain in what language they remain uncorrupted , or what Translations be true . Calvin o acknowledgeth corruption in the Hebrew Text ; which if it be taken without points , is so ambiguous , that scarcely any one Chapter , yes period , can be securely understood without the help of some Translation . If with points : These were after S. Hieroms time , invented by the perfidious Iewes , who either by ignorance might mistake , or upon malice force the Text , to favour their impieties . And that the Hebrew Text still retaines much ambiguity , is apparent by the disagreeing Translation of Novelists ; which also proves the Greek , for the New Testament , not to be void of doubtfulnes , as Calvin p confesseth it to be corrupted . And although both the Hebrew and Greeke were pure , what doth this help , if only Scripture be the rule of faith , and so very few be able to examine the Text in these languages . All then must be reduced to the certainty of Translations into other tongues , wherein no private man having any premise , or assurance of infallibility , Protestants who rely upon Scripture alone , will find no certain ground for their faith : as accordingly Whitaker q affirmeth : Those who understand not the Hebrew and Greek doe erre often , and unavoidably . 16 Now concerning the Translations of Protestants , it will be sufficient to set down what the laborious , exact , and jucicious Author of the Protestants Apology &c. dedicated to our late King Iames of famous memory , hath to this r purpose . To omit ( saith he ) particulars , whose recitall would be infinite , and to touch this point but generally only , the Translation of the New Testament by Luther is condemned by Andreas , O siander Keckermannus , and Zuinglius , who saith hereof to Luther . Thou dost corrupt the word of God , thou art seen to be a manifest and common corrupter of the holy Scriptures : how much are we ashamed of thee who have hitherto esteemed thee beyond all measure , and now prove thee to be such a man ? And in like manner doth Luther reject the Translation of the Zuinglians , terming them in matter of Divinity , fooles , Asses , Anuchrists , deceavers , and of Asse-like understanding . In so much that when Froschoverus the Zwinglian Printer of Zurich sent him a Bible translated by the Divines there , Luther would not receive the same , but sending it back reiected it , as the Protestant Writers Hospinianus , and Lavatherus witnesse . The translation set forth by Oecolampadius , and the Divines of Basil , is reproved by Beza , who affirmeth that the Basil Translation is in many places wicked , and altogether differing from the mind of the Holy Ghost . The translation of Castalio is condemned by Beza , as being sacrilegious , wicked , and Ethnicall . As concerning , Calvins translation , that learned Protestant Writer Carolus Molineus saith thereof : Calvin in his Harmony maketh the text of the Gospell to leap up and down : he useth violence to the letter of the Gospell , and besides this addeth to the Text. As touching Bezas translation ( to omit the dislike had thereof by Selneccerus the German Protestant of the Vniversity of Iena ) the foresaid Molinaeus saith of him , de facto mutat textum ; he actually changeth the text , and giveth farther sundry instances of his corruptions : as also Castalio that learned Calvinist , and most learned in the tongues , reprehendeth Beza in a whole book of this matter , and saith ; that to note all his errours in translation , would require a great volume . And M. Parkes saith : As for the Geneva Bibles , it is to be wished that either they may be purged from those manifold errors , which are both in the text , and in the margent ; or else utterly prohibited . All which confirmeth your Maiesties grave and learned Censure , in your thinking the Geneva translation to be worst of all ; and that in the Marginall notes annexed to the Geneva translation , some are very partiall , untrue , seditious , &c. Lastly concerning the English Translation , the Puritans say : Our translation of the Psalmes comprized in our Book of Common Prayer , doth in addition , subtraction , and alteration , differ from the Truth of the Hebrew in two hundred places at the least . In so much as they doe therefore professe to rest doubtfull , whether a man with a safe conscience may subscribe thereunto . And M. Carlile saith of the English Translators , that they have depraved the sense , obscured the truth , and deceived the ignorant ; that in many places they doe detort the Scriptures from the right sense . And that , they shew themselves to love darknesse more then light , falshood more then truth . And the Ministers of Lincolne Diocesse give their publike testimony , terming the English Translation : A Translation that taketh away from the Text ; that addeth to the Text ; and that , sometime to the changing , or obscuring of the meaning of the Holy Ghost . Not without cause therefore did your Majesty affirme , that you could never yet see a Bible well translated into English. Thus farre the Author of the Protestants Apology &c. And I cannot forbear to mention in particular that famous corruption of Luther , who in the Text where it is said ( Rom. 3. v. 28. We accompt a man to be justified by faith , without the works of the Law , in favour of Iustification by faith alone , translateth ( Iustified by faith ALONE . ) As likewise the falsification of Zuinglius is no lesse notorious , who in the Gospels of S. Matthew , Mark , and Luke , and in S. Paul , in place of , This is my Body , This is my Blood , translates , This signifies my Body , This signifies my blo●d . And here let Prorestants consider duely of these points . Salvation cannot be hoped for without true faith : Faith according to them relies upon Scripture alone : Scripture must be delivered to most of them by the Translations : Translations depend on the skill and honesty of men , in whom nothing is more certain then a most certain possibility to erre , and no greater evidence of truth , then that it is evident some of them imbrace falshood , by reason of their contrary translations . What then remaineth , but that truth , faith , salvation , and all , must in them rely upon a fallible , and uncertain ground ? How many poore soules are lamentably seduced , while from preaching Ministers , they admire a multitude of Texts of divine Scripture , but are indeed the false translations , and corruptions of erring men ? Let them therefore , if they will be assured of true Scriptures , fly to the alwaies visible Catholique Church , against which the gates of hell can never so farre prevaile , as that she shall be permitted to deceive the Christian world with false Scriptures . And Luther himselfe , by unfortunate experience , was at length forced to confesse thus much saying : If the s world last longer , it will be again necessary to receive the decrees of Councels , and to have recourse to them , by reason of divers interpretations of Scripture which now raigne . On the contrary side , the Translation approved by the Roman Church , is commended even by our adversaries : and D. Covel in particular saith , that it was used in the Church , one thousand t three hundred yeares agoe , and doubteth not to prefer u that Translation before others . In so much , that whereas the English translations be many , and among themselves disagreeing , he concludeth , that of all those the approved translation authorized by the Church of England , is that which commeth nearest to the vulgar , and is commonly called the Bishops Bible . So that the truth of that translation which we use , must be the rule to judge of the goodnesse of their Bibles : and therefore they are obliged to maintain our Translation if it were but for their own sake . 17 But doth indeed the source of their manifold uncertainties stop here ? No , The chiefest difficulty remaines , concerning the true meaning of Scripture : for attaining whereof , if Protestants had any certainty , they could not disagree so hugely as they doe . Hence M. Hooker saith : We are w right sure of this , that Nature , Scripture , and Experience have all taught the world to seek for the ending of contentions , by submitting it selfe unto some iudiciall , and definitive sentence , whereunto neither part that contendeth may , under any pretence , refuse to stand . D. Fields words are remarkable , to this purpose : Seeing ( saith he ) the controversies x of Religion in our times are grown in number so many , and in nature so intricate , that few have time and leasure , fewer strength of understanding to examine them ; what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence , but diligently to search out which among all the societies in the world , is that blessed company of holy ones , that houshold of Faith , that Spouse of Christ , and Church of the living God , which is the Pillar and ground of Truth , that so they may imbrace her communion , follow her directions , and rest in her iudgement ? 18 And now that the true Interpretation of Scripture , ought to be received from the Church , it is also proved by what we have already demonstrated , that she it is , who must declare what Bookes be true Scripture ; wherein if she be assisted by the Holy Ghost , why should we not believe her , to be infallibly directed concerning the true meaning of them ? Let Protestants therefore either bring some proofe out of Scripture , that the Church is guided by the Holy Ghost in discerning true Scripture , and not in delivering the true sense thereof ; Or else give us leave to apply against them , the argument , which S. Augustine opposed to the Manicheans , in these words ; I would not y believe the Gospell , unlesse the authority of the Church did move me . Them therefore whom I obeye● saying , Believe the Gospell , why should I not obey saying to me , Doe not believe Manichaeus ( Luther , Calvin , &c. ) Choose what thou pleasest . If thou shalt say , believe the Catholiques ; They warne me not to give any credit to you . If therefore I believe them , I cannot believe thee . If thou say , Do not believe the Catholiques , thou shalt not doe well in forcing me to the faith of Manichaeus , because by the preaching of Catholiques I believed the Gospell it selfe . If thou say , you did well to believe them ( Catholiques ) commending the Gospell , but you did not well to believe them , discommending Manichaeus ; Dost thou think me so very foolish , that without any reason at all , I should believe what thou wilt , and not believe what thou wilt not ? And doe not Protestants perfectly resemble these men , to whom S. Augustine spake , when they will have men to believe the Roman Church delivering Scripture , but not to believe her condemning Luther , and the rest ? Against whom , when they first opposed themselves to the Roman Church , S. Augustine may seem to have spoken no lesse prophetically , then doctrinally , when he said : Why should I not most z diligently in●uire what Christ cōmanded of them before all others , by whose authority I was moved to believe , that Christ commanded any good thing ? Canst thou better declare to me what he said , whom I would not have thought to have been ; or to be , if the belief thereof had been recommended by thee to mee ? This therefore I believed by fame , strengthned with celebrity , consent , Antiquity . But every one may see that you , so few , so turbulent , so new , can produce nothing deserving authority . What madnesse is this ? Believe them ( Catholiques ) that we ought to believe Christ ; but learn of us what Christ said Why , I beseech thee ? Surely if they ( Catholiques ) were not at all , and could not teach me any thing , I would more easily perswade my selfe , that I were not to believe Christ , then that I should learn any thing concerning him from any other then them by whom I believed him . If therefore we receive the knowledge of Christ , and Scriptures from the Church , from her also must we take his doctrine , and the interpretation thereof . 19 But besides all this , the Scriptures cannot be Iudge of Controversies ; who ought to be such , as that to him not only the learned , or Veterans , but also the unlearned , and Novices , may have recourse : for these being capable of salvation , and endued with faith of the same nature with that of the learned , there must be some universall Iudge , which the ignorant may understand , and to whom the greatest Clerks must submit . Such is the Church : and the Scripture is not such . 20 Now , the inconveniences which follow by referring all Controversies to Scripture alone , are very clear . For by this principle , all is finally in very deed and truth reduced to the internall private Spirit , because there is really no middle way betwixt a publiqu● externall , and a private internall voyce ; and whosoever refuseth the one , must of necessity adhere to the other . 21 This Tenet also of Protestants , by taking the office of Iudicature from the Church , comes to conferre it upon every particular man , who being driven from submission to the Church , cannot be blamed if he trust himselfe as farre as any other , his conscience dictating , that wittingly he meanes not to cozen himself , as others malitiously may doe . Which inference is so manifest , that it hath extorted from divers Protestants the open Confession of so vast an absurdity . Hear Luther : The Governours a of Churches and Pastors of Christs sheep have indeed power to teach , but the sheep ought to give judgement whether they propound the voice of Christ , or of Aliens . Lubertus saith : As we have b demonstrated that all publique Iudges may be deceived in interpreting ; so we affirme , that they may erre in judging . All faithfull men are private Iudges , and they also have power to judge of doctrines and interpretations . Whitaker , even of the unlearned , saith : They c ought to have recourse unto the more learned ; but in the meane time we must be carefull not to attribute to them over-much , but so , that still we retaine our owne freedome . Bilson also affirmeth ; that , The people d must be discerners , and Iudges of that which is taught . This same pernicious doctrine is delivered by Brentius , Zanchius , Cartwright , and others exactly cited by e Brerely ; and nothing is more common in every Protestants mouth , then that he admits of Fathers , Councells , Church &c. as farre as they agree with Scripture ; which upon the matter is himselfe . Thus Heresy ever fals upon extreames : It pretends to have Scripture alone for judge of Controversies , and in the meane time sets up as many Iudges , as there are men and women in the Christian world . What good Statesmen would they be , who should ideate , or fancy such a Cōmon wealth , as these men haue framed to themselues a Church ? They verifie what S. Augustine objecteth against certaine Heretiques . You see f that you goe about to overthrow all authority of Scripture , and that every mans minde may be to himselfe a Rule , what he is to allow , or disallow in every S●●ipture . 22 Moreover what confusion to the Church , what danger to the Common wealth , this deniall of the authority of the Church , may bring , I leaue to the consideration of any judicious , indifferent man. I will only set down some words of D. Potter , who speaking of the Proposition of revealed Truths , sufficient to proue him that gain-saith them to be an Heretique , saith thus : This Proposition g of revealed truths , is not by the infallible determination of Pope , or Church ; ( Pope , & Church being excluded , let us heare what more secure rule he will prescribe ) but by whatsoever meanes a man may be convinced in conscience of divine revelation . If a Preacher doe clear any point of faith to his Hearers ; if a private Christian doe make it appeare to his Neighbour , that any conclusion , or point of faith is delivered by divine revelation of Gods word ; if a man himselfe ( without any Teacher ) by reading the Scriptures , or hearing them read , be convinced of the truth of any such conclusion : this is a sufficient proposition to proue him that gainsaith any such proofe , to be an Heretique , and obstinate opposer of the faith . Behold what goodly safe Propounders of faith arise in place of Gods universall visible Church , which must yeeld to a single Preacher , a Neighbour , a man himselfe if he can read , or at least haue eares to heare Scripture read . Verily I doe not see , but that every well-governed Civill Commonwealth , ought to concurre towards the exterminating of this doctrine , whereby the Interpretation of Scripture is taken from the Church , and conferred upon every man , who , whatsoever is pretended to the contrary , may be a passionate seditious creature . 23 Moreover , there was no Scripture , or written word for about two thousand yeares from Adam to Moyses , whom all acknowledge to haue been the first Author of Canonicall Scripture : And againe for about two thousand yeares more , from Moyses to Christ our Lord , holy Scripture , was only among the people of Israel ; and yet there were Gentiles endued in those daies with divine Faith , as appeareth in Iob , and his friends . Wherefore during so many ages , the Church alone was the Decider of Controversies , and Instructer of the faithfull . Neither did the word written by Moyses , depriue the Church of her former Infallibility , or other qualities requisite for a Judge : yea D. Potter acknowledgeth , that besides the Law , there was a living Iudge in the Iewish Church , endued with an absolutely infallible direction in cases of moment ; as all points belonging to divine Faith are . Now , the Church of Christ our Lord , was before the Scriptures of the New Testament , which were not written instantly , nor all at one time , but successiuely upon severall occasions ; and some after the decease of most of the Apostles : and after they were written , they were not presently knowne to all Churches : and of some there was doubt in the Church for some Ages after our Saviour . Shall we then say , that according as the Church by little and little received holy Scripture , she was by the like degrees devested of her possessed Infallibility , and power to decide Cōtroversies in Religion ? That some time Churches had one Iudge of Controversies , and others another ? That with moneths , or yeares , as new Canonicall Scripture grew to be published , the Church altered her whole Rule of faith , or Iudge of Controversies ? After the Apostles time , and after the writing of Scriptures , Heresies would be sure to rise , requiring in Gods Church for their discovery and condemnation , Infallibilitie , either to write new Canonicall Scripture , as was done in the Apostles time by occasion of emergent heresies ; or infallibilitie to interpret Scriptures , already written , or , without Scripture , by divine unwritten Traditions , and assistants of the holy Ghost to determine all Controversies , as Tertullian saith : The soule is h before the letter ; and speech before Bookes ; and sense before stile . Certainly such addition of Scripture , with derogation , or subtraction from the former power and infallibilitie of the Church , would haue brought to the world division in matters of faith , and the Church had rather lost , then gained by holy Scripture ( which ought to be far from our tongues and thoughts , ) it being manifest , that for decision of Controversies , infallibilitie setled in a living Iudge , is incomparably more usefull and fit , then if it were conceived , as inherent in some inanimate writing . Is there such repugnance betwixt Infallibility in the Church , and Existence of Scripture , that the production of the one , must be the destruction of the other ? Must the Church wax dry , by giving to her Children the milke of sacred Writ ? No , No. Her Infallibility was , and is derived from an inexhausted fountaine . If Protestants will haue the Scripture alone for their Iudge , let them first produce some Scripture affirming , that by the entring thereof , Infallibilitie went out of the Church , D. Potter may remember what himselfe teacheth ; That the Church is still endued with infallibility in points fundamentall , and consequently , that infallibility in the Church doth well agree with the truth , the sanctity , yea with the sufficiency of Scripture , for all matters necessary to Salvation . I would therefore gladly know , out of what Text he imagineth that the Church by the comming of Scripture , was deprived of infallibility in some points , and not in others ? He affirmeth that the Iewish Synagogue retained infallibility in her selfe , notwithstanding the writing of the Old Testament ; and will he so unworthily and unjustly depriue the Church of Christ of infallibilitie by reason of the New Testament ? E●pecially if we consider , that in the Old Testament , Lawes , Ceremonies , Rites , Punishments , Iudgements , Sacraments , Sacrifices &c. were more particularly , and minutely delivered to the Iewes , then in the New Testament is done ; our Saviour leaving the determination , or declaration of particulars to his Spouse the Church , which therefore stands in need of infallibility more then the Iewish Synagogue , D. Potter , ( 1 ) against this argument , drawne from the power and infallibilitie of the Synagogue , objects ; that we might as well inferre , that Christians must haue one soveraigne Prince over all because the Iewes had one chiefe Iudge . But the disparitie is very cleare . The Synagogue was a type , and figure of the Church of Christ 〈◊〉 so their civill government of Christian Common wealths , or kingdomes . The Church succeeded to the Synagogue , but not Christian Princes to Iewish Magistrates : And the Church is compared to a house , or k family ; to an l Army , to a m body ; to a n kingdome &c. all which require one Master , on● Generall , one head , one Magistrate , one spiritual King ; as our blessed Saviour with fiet Vnm ovile , o joyned Vnus Pastor . One sheepfold , one Pastour : But all distinct kingdomes , or Common-wealths , are not one Army , Family , &c. And finally , it is necessary to salvation , that all haue recourse to one Church ; but for temporall weale , there is no need that all submit , or depend upon one temporall Prince , kingdome , or Common-wealth : and therefore our Saviour hath left to his whole Church , as being One , one Law , one Scripture , the same Sacraments , &c. Whereas kingdomes haue their severall Lawes , different governments , diversity of Powers , Magistracy &c. And so this objection returneth upon D. Potter . For as in the One Community of the Iewes , there was one Power and Iudge , to end debates , and resolue difficulties ▪ so in the Church of Christ , which is One , there must be some one Authority to decide all Controversies in Religion . 24 This discourse is excellently proved by ancient S. Irenaeus p in these words . What if the Apostles had not left Scriptures , ought we not to haue followed the order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whom they committed the Churches ? to which order many Nations yeeld ossent , who belieue in Christ , having salvation written in their hearts by the spirit of God , without letters or Iuke , and diligently keeping ancient Tradition . It is easie to receiue the truth from Gods Church , seeing the Apostles haue most fully deposited in her , as in a rich storehouse , all things belonging to truth . For what ? if there should arise any contention of some small question , ought wee not to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches , and from them to receiue what is certaine and cleare concerning the present question ? 25 Besides all this , the doctrine of Protestants is destructiue of it selfe . For either they have certaine , and infallible meanes not to erre in interpreting Scripture ; or they haue not . If not ; then the Scripture ( to them ) cannot be a sufficient ground for infallible faith , nor a meet Iudge of Controversies . If they h●ue certaine infallible meanes , and so cannot erre in their interpretations of Scriptures ; then they are able with infallibility to heare , examine , and determine all controversies of faith ; and so they may be , and are Iudges of Controversies , although they use the Scripture as a Rule . And thus , against their own doctrine , they constitute another Iudge of Controversies , besides Scripture alone . 26 Lastly , 〈◊〉 D. Potter , whether this Assertion , ( Scripture alone is Iudge of all Controversies in saith , ) be a fundamentall point of faith , or no ? He must be well advised , before he say , that it is a fundamentall point . For he will haue against him , as many Protestants as teach that by Scripture alone , it is impossible to knowe what Bookes be Scripture , which yet to Protestants is the most necessary and chiefe point of all other . D. Covell expresly saith : Doubtlesse q it is a tolerable opinion in the Church of Rome , if they goe no further , as some of them doe not ( hee should haue said as none of them doe ) to affirme , that the Scriptures are holy & divine in themselves , but so esteemed by us , for the authority of the Church . He will likewise oppose himselfe to those his Brethren , who grant that Controversies cannot be ended , without some externall living authority , as we noted before . Besides , how can it be in us a fundamentall errour to say , the Scripture alone is not Iudge of Controversies , seeing ( notwithstanding this our beliefe ) wee use for interpreting of Scripture , all the meanes which they prescribe ; as Prayer , Conferring of places , Consulting the Originals &c ▪ and to these adde the Instruction , and Authority of Gods Church , which even by has confession cannot erre damna●ly , and may afford us more help , then can be expected from the industry , learning , or wit of any private person : and finally D. Potter grants , that the Church of Rome doth not maintain any fundamentall errour against faith ; and consequently , he cannot affirme that our doctrine in this present Controversie is damnable . If he answer , that their Tenet , about the Scriptures being the only Iudge of Controversies , is not a fundamentall point of faith : then , as he ●eacheth that the universall Church may erre in points not fundamentall ; so I hope he will n●t deny , but particular Churches , and private men , are much more obnoxious to errour in such points ; and in particular in this , that Scripture alone is Iudge of Controversies : And so , the very principle upon which their whole faith is grounded , remaines to them uncertaine : and on the other side , for the selfe same reason , they are not certaine , but that the Church is Iudge of Controversies ; which if she be , then their case is lamentable , who in generall deny her this authority , & in particular controversies oppose her definitions . Besides among publique Conclusions defended in Oxford the yeare 1633. to the questions , Whether the Church haue authority to determine controversies in faith ; And , To interpret holy Scripture ? The answer to both is Affirmatiue . 27 Since then , the visible Church of Christ our Lord is that infallible Meanes whereby the revealed truth of Almighty God are conveyed to our understanding ; it followeth that to oppose her definitions is to resist God himselfe ; which blessed S. Augustine plainly affirmeth , when speaking of the Controversy about Rebaptization of such as were baptized by Heretiques , he saith . T●is r is neither openly , nor evidently read , neither by you nor by me ; yet if there were any wise man of whom our Saviour had given testimony , and that he should be consulted in this question , we should make no doubt to performe what he should say , least we might seem to gainsay not him so much as Christ , by whose testimony he was recommended . Now Christ beareth witnesse to his Church . And a little after : Whosoever refuseth to follow the practise of the Church , doth resist our Saviour himselfe , who by his testimony recommends the Church . I conclude therefore with this argument . Whosoever resisteth that meanes which infallibly proposeth to us Gods Word or R●velation , commits a sinne , which , unrepented , excludes salvation : But whosoever resisteth Christs visible Church , doth resist that meanes , which infallibly proposeth Gods word or revelation to us : Therefore whosoever resisteth Christs visible Church , commits a sinne ; which unrepented , excludes salvation . Now what visible Church was extant , when Luther began his pretended Reformation , whethe● it were the Roman , or Protestant Church ; and whether he , and other Protestants doe not oppose that visible Church , which was spread over the world , before , and in Luthers time , is easy to be determined , and importeth every one most seriously to ponder , as a thing whereon eternall salvation dependeth . And because our Adversaries doe here most insist upon the distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall ; and in particular teach , that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall , it will be necessary to examine the truth , and weight of this evasion , which shall be done in the next Chapter . ANSVVER TO THE SECOND CHAPTER . Concerning the meanes , whereby the revealed Truths of God are conveyed to our understanding ; and which must determine Controversies in Faith and Religion . AD § . 1. He that would usurpe an absolute lordship and tyranny over any people , need not put himselfe to the trouble and difficulty of abrogating and disanulling the Lawes , made to maintain the common liberty ; for he may frustrate their intent , and compasse his own designe as well , if he can get the power and authority to interpret them as he pleases , and adde to them what he pleases , and to have his interpretations and additions stand for Lawes ; if he can rule his people by his lawes , and his Lawes by his Lawyers . So the Church of Rome , to establish her tyranny over mens consciences , needed not either to abolish or corrupt the holy Scriptures , the Pillars and supporters of Christian liberty ( which in regard of the numerous multitude of copies dispersed through all places , translated into almost all languages , guarded with all sollicitous care and industry , had been an impossible attempt ; ) But the more expedite way , and therefore more likely to be successefull , was to gain the opinion and esteem of the publique and authoriz'd interpreter of them , and the Authority of adding to them what doctrine she pleas'd under the title of Traditions or Definitions . For by this meanes , she might both serve her selfe of all those clauses of Scripture , which might be drawen to cast a favourable countenance upon her ambitious pretences , which in case the Scripture had been abolished , shee could not have done ; and yet be secure enough of having either her power limited , or her corruptions and abuses reformed by them ; this being once setled in the mindes of men , that unwritten doctrines , if proposed by her , were to be receiv'd with equall reverence to those that were written : and that the sense of Scripture was not that which seem'd to mens reason and understanding to be so , but that which the Church of Rome should declare to be so , seem'd it never so unreasonable , and incongruous . The matter being once thus ordered , and the holy Scriptures being made in effect not your directors and Iudges ( no farther then you please ) but your servants and instruments , alwaies prest and in readinesse to advance your designes , and disabled wholly with mindes so qualified to prejudice or impeach them ; it is safe for you to put a crown on their head , and a reed in their hands , and to bow before them , & cry , Haile King of the Iewes ! to pretend a great deale of esteem , and respect , & reverence to them , as here you doe . But to little purpose is verball reverence without entire submission and syncere obedience ; and , as our Saviour said of some , so the Scripture , could it speak , I believe would say to you , Why call ye mee Lord , Lord , and doe not that which I command you ? Cast away the vaine and arrogant pretence of Infallibility , which makes your errors incurable . Leave picturing God , and worshipping him by pictures . Teach not for Doctrine the Commandments of men . Debarre not the Laity of the Testament of Christs blood . Let your publique Prayers and Psalmes and Hymmes be in such language as is for the edification of the Assistants . Take not from the Clergy that liberty of Marriage which Christ hath left them . Doe not impose upon men that Humility of worshipping Angels which S. Paul condemnes . Teach no more proper sacrifices of Christ but one . Acknowledge them that dye in Christ to be blessed , and to rest from their labours . Acknowledge the Sacrament after consecration , to be Bread and Wine , as well as Christs body and blood . Acknowledge the gift of continency without Marriage not to be given to all . Let not the weapons of your warfare be carnall ; such as are Massacres , Treasons , Persecutions , and in a word all meanes either violent or fraudulent : These and other things , which the Scripture commands you , doe , and then we shall willingly give you such Testimony as you deserve ; but till you doe so , to talk of estimation , respect , and reverence to the Scripture , is nothing else but talk . 2 For neither is that true which you pretend , That we possesse the Scripture from you , or take it upon the integrity of your Custody , but upon Vniversall Tradition , of which you are but a little part . Neither , if it were true that Protestants acknowledged , The integrity of it to have been guarded by your alone Custody , were this any argument of your reverence towards them . For first , you might preserve them entire , not for want of Will , but of Power to corrupt them , as it is a hard thing to poyson the Sea. And then having prevailed so farre with men , as either not to look at all into them , or but only through such spectacles as you should please to make for them , and to see nothing in them , though as cleere as the sunne , if it any way made against you , you might keep them entire , without any thought or care to conforme your doctrine to them , or reforme it by them ( which were indeed to reverence the Scriptures ) but out of a perswasion , that you could qualify them well enough with your glosses and interpretations , and make them sufficiently conformable to your present Doctrine , at least in their judgement , who were preposses'd with this perswasion , that your Church was to judge of the sense of Scripture , not to be judged by it . 3. For , whereas you say , No cause imaginable could avert your will , from giving the function of supreme and sole Iudge to holy writ ; but that the thing is impossible ; and that by this meanes controversies are encreased and not ended : you mean perhaps . That you can or will imagine no other cause but these . But sure there is little Reason you should measure other mens imaginations by your own , who perhaps may be so clouded and vail'd with prejudice , that you cannot , or will not see that which is most manifest . For what indifferent and unprejudicate man may not easily conceive another cause which ( I doe not say does , but certainly ) may pervert your wills , and avert your understandings from submitting your religion and Church to a tryall by Scripture . I mean the great and apparent and unavoidable danger which by this meanes you would fall into , of loosing the Opinion which men have of your Infallibility , and consequently your power and authority over mens consciences , and all that depends upon it ; so that though Diana of the Ephesians be cryed up , yet it may be feared that with a great many among you ( though I censure or judge no man ) the other cause which wrought upon Demetrius and the Craftsmen , may have with you also the more effectuall , though more secret influence : and that is , that by this craft we have our living ; by this craft , I mean of keeping your Proselytes from an indifferent tryall of your Religion by Scripture , and making them yeeld up and captivate their judgement unto yours . Yet had you only said de facto , that no other cause did avert your own will from this , but only these which you pretend ; out of Charity I should have believed you : But seeing you speak not of your selfe , but of all of your side , whose hearts you cannot know ; and professe not only , That there is no other cause , but that No other is imaginable , I could not let this passe without a censure . As for the impossibility of Scriptures being the sole judge of Controversies , that is , the sole rule for man to Iudge them by ( for we mean nothing else ) you only affirme it without proofe , as if the thing were evident of it selfe . And therefore I , conceiving the contrary to be more evident , might well-content my selfe to deny it without refutation . Yet I cannot but desire you to tell me , If Scripture cannot be the Iudge of any Controversy , how shall that touching the Church and the notes of it be determined ? And if it be the sole judge of this one , why may it not of others ? Why not of All ? Those only excepted wherein the Scripture it selfe is the subject of the Question , which cannot be determined but by naturall reason , the only principle , beside Scripture , which is common to Christians . 4 Then for the Imputation of increasing contentions and not ending them , Scripture is innocent of it ; as also this opinion ; That controversies are to be decided by Scripture . For if men did really and sincerely submit their judgements to Scripture , and that only , and would require no more of any man but to doe so , it were impossible but that all controversies , touching things necessary and very profitable should be ended : and if others were continued or increased , it were no matter . 5 In the next wordes we have direct Boyes-play ; a thing given with one hand and taken away with the other ; an acknowledgement made in one line , and retracted in the next . We acknowledge ( say you ) Scripture to be a perfect rule , for as much as a writing can be a Rule , only wee deny that it excludes unwritten tradition . A si● you should have said , we acknowledge it to be as perfect a rule as a writing can be ; only we deny it to be as perfect a rule as a writing may be . Either therefore you must revoke your acknowledgement , or retract your retractation of it ; for both cannot possibly stand together . For if you will stand to what you have granted , That Scripture is as perfect a rule of Faith as a writing can be : you must then grant it both so Compleat , that it needs no addition , and so evident , that it needs no interpretation : For both these properties are requisite to a perfect rule ; and a writing is capable of both these properties . 6 That both these Properties are requisite to a perfect rule , it is apparent : Because that is not perfect in any kind which wants some parts belonging to its integrity : As he is not a perfect man that wants any part appertaining to the Integrity of a Man ; and therefore that which wants any accession to make it a perfect rule , of it selfe is not a perfect Rule . And then , the end of a r●le is to regulate and direct . Now every instrument is more or lesse perfect in its kinde , as it is more or lesse fit to attain the end for which it is ordained : But nothing obscure or unevident while it is so , is fit to regulate and direct them to whom it is so : Therefore it is requisite also to a rule ( so farre as it is a Rule ) to be evident ; otherwise indeed it is no rule , because it cannot serve for direction . I conclude therefore , that both these properties are required to a perfect Rule : both to be so compleat as to need no Addition ; and to be so evident as to need no Interpretation . 7 Now that a writing is capable of both these perfections , it is so plain , that I am even ashamed to prove it . For he that denies it must say , That something may be spoken which cannot be written . For if such a compleat and evident rule of faith may be delivered by word of mouth , as you pretend it may , and is ; and whatsoever is delivered by word of mouth may also be written ; then such a compleat and evident rule of faith may also be written . If you will have more light added to the Sunne , answer me then to these Questions . Whether your Church can set down in writing all these , which she pretends to be divine unwritten Traditions , and adde them to the verities already written ? And whether she can set us down such interpretations of all obscurities in the Faith as shall need no farther interpretations ? If shee cannot , then she hath not that power which you pretend she hath , of being an Infallible teacher of all divine verities , and an infallible interpreter of obscurities in the faith : for she cannot teach us all divine verities , if she cannot write them down ; neither is that an interpretation which needs again to be interpreted : If she can ; Let her doe it , and then we shall have a writing , not only capable of , but , actually endowed with both these perfections , of being both so compleat as to need no Addition , and so evident as to need no Interpretation . Lastly , whatsoever your Church can doe or not doe , no man can without Blasphemy deny , that Christ Iesus , if he had pleas'd , could have writ us a rule of Faith so plaine and perfect , as that it should have wanted neither any part to make up its integrity , nor any cleerenesse to make it sufficiently intelligible : And if Christ could have done this , then the thing might have been done ; a writing there might have been indowed with both these properties . Thus therefore I conclude , a writing may be so perfect a Rule , as to need neither Addition nor Interpretation ; But the Scripture you acknowledge a perfect Rule for as much as a writing can be a Rule , therefore it needs neither Addition nor Interpretation . 8 You will say , that though a writing be never so perfect a Rule of Faith , yet it must be beholding to Tradition to give it this Testimony , that it is a Rule of Faith , and the Word of God. I answere : First , there is no absolute necessity of this . For God might , if he thought good , give it the attestation of perpetuall miracles . Secondly , that it is one thing to be a perfect Rule of Faith , another to be proved so unto us . And thus though a writing could not be proved to us to be a perfect rule of Faith , by its own saying so , for nothing is prov'd true by being said or written in a book , but only by Tradition which is a thing credible of it selfe ; yet it may be so in it selfe , and containe all the materiall objects , all the particular articles of our Faith , without any dependance upon Tradition ; even this also not excepted , that this writing doth containe the rule of Faith. Now when Protestants affirme against Papists , that Scripture is a perfect Rule of Faith , their meaning is not , that by Scripture all things absolutely may be proved , which are to be believed : For it can never be prov'd by Scripture to a gainsayer , that there is a God , or that the book called Scripture is the word of God ; For he that will deny these Assertions when they are spoken , will believe them never a whit the more because you can shew them written : But their meaning is , that the Scripture , to them which presuppose it Divine , and a Rule of Faith , as Papists and Protestants doe , containes all the materiall objects of Faith ; is a compleat and totall , and not only an imperfect and a partiall Rule . 9 But every Book , and Chapter , and Text of Scripture is infallible and wants no due perfection , and yet excludes not the Addition of other bookes of Scripture ; Therefore the perfection of the whole Scripture excludes not the Addition of unwritten Tradition . I answere ; Every Text of Scripture though it have the perfection belonging to a Text of Scripture , yet it hath not the perfection requisite to a perfect Rule of Faith ; and that only is the perfection which is the subject of our discourse . So that this is to abuse your Reader with the ambiguity of the word Perfect . In effect , as if you should say , A text of Scripture may be a perfect Text , though there be others beside it ; therefore the whole Scripture may be a perfect Rule of Faith , though there be other parts of this Rule , besides the Scripture , and though the Scripture be but a part of it . 10 The next Argument to the same purpose is , for Sophistry , cosen german to the former . When the first bookes of Scripture were written , they did not exclude unwritten Tradition : Therefore now also , that all the bookes of Scripture are written , Traditions are not excluded . The sense of which argument ( if it have any ) must be this . When only a part of the Scripture was written , then a part of the divine doctrine was unwritten ; Therefore now when all the Scripture is written , yet some part of the divine doctrine is yet unwritten . If you say , your conclusion is not that it is so , but without disparagement to Scripture , may be so : without disparagement to the truth of Scripture , I grant it ; but without disparagement to the Scriptures being a perfect Rule , I deny it . And now the Question is not of the Truth , but the perfection of it ; which are very different things , though you would faine confound them . For Scripture might very well be all true , though it containe not all necessary Divine Truth . But unlesse it doe so , it cannot be a perfect Rule of Faith ; for that which wants any thing is not perfect . For I hope you doe not imagine , that we conceive any antipathy between Gods word written and unwritten , but that both might very well stand together . All that we say is this , that we have reason to believe that God de Facto , hath ordered the matter so , that all the Gospell of Christ , the whole covenant between God and man , is now written . Whereas if he had pleas'd , he might so have disposed it , that part might have been written , and part unwritten : but then he would have taken order , to whom we should have had recourse , for that part of it which was not written ; which seeing he hath not done ( as the progresse shall demonstrate ) it is evident he hath left no part of it unwritten . We know no man therefore that saies , It were any injury to the written Word to be joyn'd with the unwritten , if there were any wherewith it might be joyn'd ; but that we deny . The fidelity of a Keeper may very well consist with the authority of the thing committed to his custody . But we know no one ●ociety of Christians that is such a faithfull Keeper as you pretend . The Scripture it selfe was not kept so faithfully by you , but that you suffered infinite variety of Readings to creep into it ; all which could not possibly be divine , and yet , in severall parts of your Church , all of them , untill the last Age , were so esteem'd . The interpretations of obscure places of Scripture , which without Question the Apostles taught the Primitive Christians , are wholy lost ; there remaines no certainty scarce of any one . Those Worlds of Miracles , which our Saviour did , which were not written , for want of writing are vanished out of the memory of men . And many profitable things which the Apostles taught and writ not , as that which S. Paul glances at , in his second Epistle to the Thessalon . of the cause of the hindrance of the comming of Antichrist , are wholly lost and extinguished . So unfaithfull or negligent hath been this keeper of Divine verities ; whose eyes , like the keepers of Israell ( you say ) have never flumbred nor slept . Lastly , we deny not but a Iudge and a Law might well stand together , but we deny that there is any such Iudge of Gods appointment . Had he intended any such Iudge , he would have nam'd him , least otherwise ( as now it is ) our Iudge of controversies should be our greatest controversy . 11 Ad § 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. In your second Paragraph , you summe up those arguments wherewith you intend to prove , that Scripture alone cannot be Iudge in controversies . Wherein I professe unto you before hand , that you will fight without an Adversary . For though Protestants , being warranted by some of the Fathers , have called Scripture the Iudge of Controversies ; and you in saying here , That Scripture alone cannot be Iudge , imply that it may be called in some sense a Iudge , though not alone : Yet to speak properly ( as men should speak when they write of Controversies in Religion ) the Scripture is not a Iudge of Controversies , but a Rule , only and the only Rule for Christians to judge them by . Every man is to judge for himselfe with the Iudgement of Discretion , and to choose either his Religion first , and then his Church , as we say : or as you , his Church first , and then his Religion . But by the consent of both sides , every man is to judge and choose : and the Rule whereby he is to guide his choyce , if he be a naturall man , is Reason , if he be already a Christian , Scripture , which we say is the Rule to judge controversies by . Yet not all simply , but all the Controversies of Christians , of those , that are already agreed upon This first Principle that , the Scripture is the word of God. But that there is any man , or any company of men appointed to be judge for all men , that we deny , and that I believe you will never prove . The very truth is , we say no more in this matter , then evidence of Truth hath made you confesse in plain termes in the beginning of this chapter , viz. That Scripture is a perfect Rule of faith , for as much as a writing can be a rule . So that all your reasons whereby you labour to dethrone the Scripture from this office of Iudgeing , we might let passe as impertinent to the conclusion which we maintaine , and you have already granted ; yet out of curtesy we will consider them . 12 Your first is this ; a Iudge must be a person fit to end controversies , but the Scripture is not a person , nor fit to end controversies , no more then the Law would be without the Iudges , therefore though it may be a Rule it cannot be a Iudge . Which conclusion I have already granted . Only my request is , that you will permit Scripture to have the properties of a Rule , that is , to be fit to direct every one that will make the best use of it , to that end for which it was ordained . And that is as much as we need desire . For as if I were to goe a journey and had a guide which could not erre , I needed not to know my way : so on the other side if I know my way or have a plain rule to know it by , I shall need no guide . Grant therefore Scripture to be such a Rule , and it will quickly take away all necessity of having an infallible guide . But without a living Iudge it will be no fitter ( you say ) to end Controversies , then the Law alone to end suits . I answere , if the Law were plain and perfect , and men honest and desirous to understand aright , and obey it , he that saies it were not fit to end controversies , must either want understanding himself , or think the world wants it . Now the Scripture , we pretend , in things necessary is plain & perfect , and men , we say , are oblig'd , under pain of Damnation , to seek the true sense of it , and not to wrest it to their preconceived Phansies . Such a law therefore to such men cannot but be very fit to end all controversies , necessary to be ended . For others that are not so , they will end when the world ends , and that is time enough . 12 Your next encounter is with them , who acknowledging the Scripture a Rule only and not a Iudge , make the holy Ghost , speaking in Scripture , the judge of Controversies . Which you disprove by saying , That the holy Ghost speaking only in Scripture is no more intelligible to us , then the Scripture in which he speakes . But by this reason neither the Pope , nor a Councell can be a Iudge neither . For first , denying the Scriptures , the writings of the Holy Ghost , to be judges , you will not I hope offer to pretend , that their decrees , the writings of men are more capable of this function : the same exceptions at least , if not more , and greater lying against them as doe against Scripture . And then what you object against the holy Ghost , speaking in Scripture , to exclude him from this office , The same I returne upon them and their decrees , to debarre them from it ; that they speaking unto us only in their decrees , are no more intelligible then the decrees in which they speak . And therefore if the Holy Ghost speaking in Scripture may not be a judge for this reason ; neither may they , speaking in their decrees , be judges for the same Reason . If the Popes decrees ( you will say ) be obscure , he can explain himselfe , and so the Scripture cannot . But the holy Ghost , that speaks in Scripture , can doe so , if he please , and when he is pleas'd will doe so . In the mean time it will be fit for you to wait his leasure , and to be content , that those things of Scripture which are plain should be so , and those which are obscure should remain obscure , untill he please to declare them . Besides he can ( which you cannot warrant me of the Pope or a Councell ) speak at first so plainly , that his words shall need no farther explanation ; and so in things necessary we believe he has done . And if you say , the Decrees of Councells touching Controversies , though they be not the Iudge , yet they are the Iudges sentence : So , I say , the Scripture , though not the Iudge , is the sentence of the Iudge . When therefore you conclude , That to say a Iudge is necessary for deciding controversies , about the meaning of Scripture , is as much as to say , he is necessary to decide what the holy Ghost speakes in Scripture : This I grant is true , but I may not grant that a Iudge ( such a one as we dispute of ) is necessary either to doe the one , or the other . For if the Scripture ( as it is in things necessary ) be plain , why should it be more necessary to have a judge to interpret them in plain places , then to have a judge to interpret the meaning of a Councell's decrees , and others to interpret their Interpretations , and others to interpret theirs , and so on for ever ? And where they are not plaine , there if we , using diligence to finde the truth , doe yet misse of it and fall into errour , there is no danger in it . They that erre , and they that doe not erre may both be saved . So that those places which containe things necessary , and wherein errour were dangerous , need no infallible interpreter because they are plaine : and those that are obscure need none because they contain not things necessary , neither is errour in them dangerous . 13 The Law-maker speaking in the Law , I grant it , is no more easily understood then the Law it selfe , for his speech is nothing else but the Law : I grant it very necessary , that besides the Law-maker speaking in the Law , there should be other Iudges to determine civill and criminall Controversies , and to giue every man that Iustice which the Law allowes him . But your Argument drawn from hence to shew a necessitie of a visible Iudge in Controversies of Religion , I say is Sophisticall : and that for many Reasons . 14 First , Because the variety of Civill cases is infinite , and therefore there cannot be possibly Lawes enough provided for the determination of them : and therefore there must be a Iudge to supply out of the Principles of Reason the interpretation of the Law , where it is defectiue . But the Scripture ( we say ) is a perfect Rule of Faith , and therefore needs no supply of the defects of it . 15 Secondly , To execute the Letter of the Law , according to rigour , would be many times unjust , and therefore there is need of a Iudge to moderate it ; whereof in Religion there is no use at all . 16 Thirdly , In Civill and Criminall causes the parties haue for the most part so much interest , and very often so little honesty , that they will not submit to a Law though never so plaine , if it bee against them ; or will not see it to be against them , though it be so never so plainly : whereas if men were honest , and the Law were plaine and extended to all cases , there would be little need of Iudges . Now in matters of Religion , when the Question is , whether every man bee a fit Iudge and chooser for himselfe , we suppose men honest , and such as understand the difference between a Moment and Eternity . And such men , we conceiue , will think it highly concernes them to be of the true Religion , but nothing at all that this or that Religion should be the true . And then wee suppose that all the necessary points of Religion are plaine and easie , & consequently every man in this cause to be a competent Iudge for himselfe ; because it concernes himselfe to judge right as much as eternall happinesse is worth . And if through his own default he judge amisse he alone shall suffer for it . 17 Fourthly , In Civill Controversies we are obliged only to externall passiue obedience , and not to an internall and actiue . Wee are bound to obey the sentence of the Iudge , or not to resist it , but not alwaies to belieue it just . But in matters of Religion , such a judge is required whom we should be obliged to belieue , to haue judged right . So that in Civill Controversies every honest understanding man is fit to be a Iudge ; But in religion none but he that is infallible . 18 Fiftly , In Civill Causes there is meanes and power , when the Iudge has decreed , to compell men to obey his sentence : otherwise , I belieue , Laws alone , would be to as much purpose , for the ending of differences , as Lawes and Iudges both . But all the power in the world is neither fit to convince , nor able to compell a mans conscience to consent to any thing . Worldly terrour may prevaile so far as to make men professe a Religion which they belieue not , ( such men I meane , who know not that there is a Heaven provided for Martyrs , and a Hell for those that dissemble such truths as are necessary to bee professed : ) But to force , either any man to belieue what he belieues not , or any honest man to dissemble what he does beleiue ( if God commands him to professe it , ) or to professe what he does not belieue , all the Powers in the World are too weak , with all the powers of Hell , to assist them . 19 Sixtly , In Civill Controversies the case cannot be so put , but there may be a Iudge to end it , who is not a party : In Controversies of Religion , it is in a manner impossible to bee avoided but the Iudge must be a partie . For this must be the first , whether hee be a judge or no , and in that he must be a partie . Sure I am , the Pope , in the controversies of our time , is a chiefe partie ; for it highly concernes him , even as much as his Popedome is worth , not to yeeld any one point of his Religion to be erroneous . And hee is a man subject to like passions with other men . And therefore we may justly decline his sentence , for feare temporall respects should either blinde his judgement , or make him pronounce against it . 20 Seaventhly , In Civill Controversies , it is impossible Titius should hold the land in question and Sempronius too : and therefore either the Plaintiffe must injure the Defendant , by disquieting his possession , or the Defendant wrong the Plaintiffe by keeping his right from him . But in Controversies of Religion the Case is otherwise . I may hold my opinion and doe you no wrong , and you yours and doe mee none . Nay we may both of us hold our opinion , and yet doe our selues no harme ; provided , the difference be not touching any thing necessary to salvation , and that we loue truth so well , as to bee diligent to informe our Conscience , and constant in following it . 21 Eightly , For the ending of Civill Controversies , who does not see it is absolutely necessary , that not only Iudges should bee appointed , but that it should be known and unquestioned who they are ? Thus all the Iudges of our Land are known men , known to be Iudges , and no man can doubt or question , but these are the Men. Otherwise if it were a disputable thing , who were these Iudges , and they had no certain warrant for their Authority , but only some Topicall congruities , would not any man say such Iudges , in all likelyhood , would rather multiply Controversies , then end them ? 22 Ninthly , and lastly , For the deciding of Civill Controversies men may appoint themselues a judge . But in matters of Religion , this office may be given to none but whom God hath designed for it : who doth not alwaies giue us those things which we conceiue most expedient for our selues . 23 So likewise if our Saviour , the King of Heaven , had intended that all Controversies in Religion should be by some Visible Iudge finally determined , who can doubt , but in plaine termes hee would haue expressed himselfe about this matter ? He would haue said plainely . The Bishop of Rome I haue appointed to decide all emergent Controversies . For that our Saviour design'd the Bishop of Rome to this Office , & yet would not say so , nor cause it to be written — ad Rei memoriam — by any of the Evangelists or Apostles , so much as once ; but leaue it to bee drawn out of uncertain Principles , by thirteen or fourteen more uncertain consequences , He that can beleiue it , let him . All these Reasons , I hope , will convince you , that though we haue , and haue great necessity of , Iudges in Civill and Criminall causes : yet you may not conclude from thence , that there is any publique authoriz'd Iudge to determine Controversies in Religion , nor any necessity there should be any . 24 But the Scripture stands in need of some watchfull and unerring eye to guard it , by meanes of whose assured vigilancy , we may undoubtedly receiue it syncere and pure . Very true , but this is no other then the watchfull eye of divine providence : the goodnesse whereof will never suffer , that the Scripture should be depraved and corrupted , but that in them should be alwaies extant a conspicuous and plain way to eternall happinesse . Neither can any thing be more palpably unconsistent with his goodnesse , then to suffer Scripture to be undiscernably corrupted in any matter of moment , and yet to exact of men the beliefe of those verities , which without their fault , or knowledge , or possibility of prevention , were defac'd out of them . So that God requiring of men to belieue Scripture in its purity , ingages himselfe to see it preserv'd in sufficient purity , and you need not feare but he will satisfie his ingagement . You say , we can haue no assurance of this but your Churches Vigilancie . But if we had no other we were in a hard case ; for who could then assure us that your Church has been so vigilant , as to guard Scripture from any the least alteration ? There being various Lections in the ancient copies of your Bibles , what security can your new rail'd Office of Assurance giue us , that , that reading is true which you now receiue , and that false which you reject ? Certainly they that anciently received and made use of these divers Copies , were not all guarded by the Churches vigilancy from having their Scripture alter'd from the puritie of the Originall in many places . For of different readings , it is not in nature impossible that all should bee false , but more then one cannot possibly be true . Yet the want of such a protection was no hinderance to their salvation , and why then shall the having of it be necessary for ours ? But then this Vigilancy of your Church , what meanes haue we to be ascertain'd of it ? First , the thing is not evident of it selfe ; which is evident , because many doe not belieue it . Neither can any thing be pretended to giue evidence to it , but only some places of Scripture ; of whose incorruption more then any other what is it that can secure me ? If you say the Churches vigilancy , you are in a Circle , proving the Scriptures uncorrupted by the Churches vigilancy , & the Churches vigilancy by the incorruption of some places of Scripture , and againe the incorruption of those places by the Churches vigilancy . If you name any other meanes , then that meanes which secures mee of the Scriptures incorruption in those places , will also serue to assure me of the same in other places . For my part , abstracting from Divine Providence , which will never suffer the way to Heaven to bee block'd up or made invisible , I know no other meanes ( I meane no other naturall and rationall meanes ) to be assured hereof , then I haue that any other Book is uncorrupted . For though I haue a greater degree of rationall and humane Assurance of that then this , in regard of divers considerations which make it more credible , That the Scripture hath been preserv'd from any materiall alteration ; yet my assurance of both is of the same kinde and condition , both Morall assurances , and neither Physicall or Mathematicall . 25 To the next Argument the Reply is obvious ; That though we doe not belieue the books of Scripture to be Canonicall because they say so , For other books that are not Canonicall may say they are , and those that are so may say nothing of it : yet we belieue not this upon the authority of your Church , but upon the Credibilitie of Vniversall Tradition , which is a thing Credible of it selfe , and therefore fit to bee rested on ; whereas the Authority of your Church is not so . And therefore your rest thereon is not rationall but meerly voluntary . I might as well rest upon the judgement of the next man I meet , or upon the chance of a Lottery for it . For by this meanes I only know I might erre , but by relying on you I know I should erre . But yet ( to returne you one suppose for another ) suppose I should for this and all other things submit to her direction , how could shee assure mee that I should not be mis-led by doing so ? She pretends indeed infallibility herein , but how can she assure us that she hath it ? What , by Scripture● That you say cannot assure us of its own Infallibility , and therefore not of yours . What then , by Reason ? That you say may deceiue in other things , and why not in this ? How then will she assure us hereof , By saying so ? Of this very affirmation there will remain the same Question still , How it can proue it selfe to be infallibly true . Neither can there be an end of the like multiplied Demands , till we rest in somthing evident of it selfe , which demonstrates to the world that this Church is infallible . And seeing there is no such Rock for the Infallibility of this Church to be setled on , it must of necessity , like the Iland of Delos , flote up and down for ever . And yet upon this point according to Papists all other Controversies in faith depend . 26 To they 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. § . The summe and substance of the Ten next Paragraphs is this , That it appeares , by the Confessions of some Protestants , and the Contentions of others , that the Questions about the Canon of Scripture , what it is : and about the Various reading and Translations of it , which is true and which not , are not to bee determined by Scripture , and therefore that all Controversies of Religion are not decidable by Scripture . 27 To which I have already answered saying , That when Scripture is affirm'd to be the rule by which all controversies of Religion are to be decided , Those are to be excepted out of this generality which are concerning the Scripture it selfe . For as that generall saying of Scripture , He hath put all things under his feet , is most true , though yet S. Paul tels us , That when it is said , he hath put all things under him , it is manifest he is excepted who did put all things under him : So when we say that all controversies of Religion are decidable by the Scripture , it is manifest to all , but cavillers , that we doe and must except from this generality , those which are touching the Scripture it selfe . Iust as a Merchant shewing a ship of his own , may say , all my substance is in this ship ; and yet never intend to deny , that his ship is part of his substance , nor yet to say that his ship is in it selfe . Or as a man may say , that a whole house is supported by the foundation , and yet never mean to exclude the foundation from being a part of the house , or to say that it is supported by it selfe . Or as you your selves use to say , that the Bishop of Rome is head of the whole Church , and yet would think us but captious sophisters should we inferre from hence , that either you made him no part of the whole , or else made him head of himselfe . Your negative conclusion therefore , that these Questions touching Scripture , are not decidable by Scripture , you needed not have cited any Authorities , nor urged any reason to prove it ; it is evident of it selfe , and I grant it without more adoe . But your corollary from it , which you would insinuate to your unwary reader , that therefore they are to be decided by your , or any visible Church , is a meere inconsequence , and very like his collection , who because Pamphilus was not to have Glycerium for his wife , presently concluded that he must have her ; as if there had been no more men in the world but Pamphilus and himselfe . For so you as if there were nothing in the world capable of this office , but the Scripture , or the present Church , having concluded against Scripture , you conceive , but too hastily , that you have concluded for the Church . But the truth is , neither the one nor the other have any thing to doe with this matter . For first , the Question whether such or such a book be Canonicall Scripture , though it may be decided negatively out of Scripture , by shewing apparent and irreconcileable contradictions between it and some other book confessedly Canonicall ; yet affirmatively it cannot but only by the testimonies of the ancient Churches : any book being to be received as undoubtedly Canonicall , or to be doubted of as uncertain , or rejected as Apocryphall , according as it was received , or doubted of , or rejected by them . Then for the Question , of various readings which is the true , it is in reason evident and confessed by your own Pope , that there is no possible determination of it , but only by comparison with ancient Copies . And lastly for controversies about different translations of Scripture , the learned have the same meanes to satisfy themselves in it , as in the Questions which happen about the translation of any other Author , that is , skill in the language of the Originall , and comparing translations with it . In which way if there be no certainty , I would know what certainty you have , that your Doway old , and Rhemish new Testament are true translations ? And then for the unlearned those on your side are subject to as much , nay the very same uncertainty with those on ours . Neither is there any reason imaginable , why an ignorant English Protestant may not be as secure of the translation of our Church , that it is free from errour ; if not absolutely , yet in matters of moment , as an ignorant English Papist can be of his Rhemist Testament , or Doway Bible . The best direction I can give them is to compare both together , and where there is no reall difference ( as in the translation of controverted places I believe there is very little ) there to be confident , that they are right ; where they differ , there to be prudent in the choice of the guides they follow . Which way of proceeding , if it be subject to some possible errour , yet is it the best that either we , or you have ; and it is not required that we use any better then the best we have . 28 You will say , Dependance on your Churches infallibility is a better . I answere , it would be so , if we could be infallibly certaine , that your Church is infallible , that is , if it were either evident of it selfe , and seen by its own light , or could be reduc'd unto and setled upon some Principle that is so . But seeing you your selves doe not so much as pretend , to enforce us to the belief hereof , by any proofes infallible and convincing , but only to induce us to it , by such as are , by your confession , only probable , and principall motives ; certainly it will be to very little purpose , to put off your uncertainty for the first turne , and to fall upon it at the second : to please your selves in building your house upon an imaginary Rock , when you your selves see and confesse , that this very Rock stands it selfe at the best but upō a frame of timber . I answer secondly , that this cannot be a better way , because we are infallibly certain that your Church is not infallible , and indeed hath not the reall prescription of this priviledge , but only pleaseth her selfe with a false imagination and vaine presumption of it : as I shall hereafter demonstrate by many unanswerable arguments . 29 Now seeing I make no scruple or difficulty to grant the conclusion of this discourse , that these controversies about Scripture , are not decidable by Scripture ▪ and have shewed , that your deduction from it , that therefore they are to be determin'd by the authority of some present Church , is irrationall , and inconsequent ; I might well forbeare to tire my selfe with an exact and punctuall examination of your premises 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which wether they be true or false , is to the Question disputed wholly impertinent . Yet because you shall not complaine of tergiver●ation , I will runne over them , and let nothing , that is materiall and considerable , passe without some stricture or animadversion . 30 You pretend that M. Hooker acknowledgeth that , That whereon we must rest our assurance that the Scripture is Gods word , is the Church : and for this acknowledgement you referre us to l. 3. Sect. 8. Let the Reader consult the place , and he shall finde that he and M. Hooker have been much abused , both by you here , and by M. Breerly and others before you , and that M. Hooker hath not one syllable to your pretended purpose , but very much directly to the contrary . There he tells us indeed , that ordinarily the first introduction and probable motive to the belief of the verity is the Authority of the Church , but that it is the last Foundation whereon our belief hereof is rationally grounded , that in the same place he plainly denies . His words are , Scripture teacheth us , that saving Truth which God hath discovered unto the world by Revelation , and it presumeth us taught otherwise , that it selfe is divine and sacred . The Question then being by what meanes we are taught this : some answere ; that to learne it we have no other way then tradition . ( * As namely that so we believe , because we from our Predecessors , and they from theirs have so received . But is this enough ? That which all mens experience teacheth them , may not in any wise be denied : and by experience we all know , that a the first outward motive leading men to esteeme of the Scripture , is the Authority of Gods Church . For when we know b the whole Church of God hath that opinion of the Scripture , we judge it at the first an impudent thing for any man , bred and brought up in the Church , to be of a contrary minde without cause . Afterwards the more we bestow our labour upon reading or hearing the mysteries thereof , c the more we find that the thing it self doth answer our received opinion concerning it : so that the former inducement prevailing d somewhat with us before , doth now much more prevaile , when the very thing hath ministred farther reason . If Infidels , or Atheists chance at any time to call it in question , this giveth us occasion to sift what reason there is , whereby the testimony of the Church , concerning Scripture , and our own perswasion , which Scripture it selfe hath setled , may be proved a truth infallible . e In which case the ancient Fathers , being often constrained to shew what warrant they had so much to rely upon the Scriptures , endeavoured still to maintaine the Authority of the bookes of God by arguments , such as the unbelievers themselves must needs think reasonable , if they judge thereof as they should . Neither is it a thing impossible , or greatly hard , even by such kinde of proofes , so to manifest and cleare that point , that no man living shall be able to deny it , without denying some apparent principle , such as all men acknowledge to be true . f By this time I hope the reader sees sufficient proofe of what I said in my Reply to your Preface , that M. Breerelies great ostentation of exactnesse , is no very certain argument of his fidelity . 31 But , seeing the beliefe of the Scripture is a necessary thing , and cannot be prov'd by Scripture , how can the Church of England teach , as she doth , Art. 6. That all things necessary are contain'd in Scripture ? 32 I have answered this already . And here again I say , That all but cavillers will easily understand the meaning of the Article to be , That all the Divine verities , which Christ revealed to his Apostles , and the Apostles taught the Churches , are contained in Scripture . That is , all the materiall objects of our faith ; whereof the Scripture is none , but only the meanes of conveying them unto us : which we believe not finally , and for it selfe , but for the matter contained in it . So that if men did believe the doctrine contained in Scripture , it should no way hinder their salvation , not to know whether there were any Scripture or no. Those barbarous nations Irenaeus speaks of were in this case , and yet no doubt but they might be saved . The end that God aimes at , is the beliefe of the Gospell , the covenant between God and man ; the Scripture he hath provided as a meanes for this end , and this also we are to believe , but not as the last object of our faith , but as the instrument of it . When therefore we subscribe to the 6. Art. you must understand that , by Articles of Faith , they mean the finall and ultimate objects of it , and not the meanes and instrumentall objects ; and then there will be no repugnance between what they say , and that which Hooker , and D. Covell , and D. Whitaker , and Luther here say . 33 But , Protestants agree not in assigning the Canon of holy Scripture . Luther and Illyricus reject the Epistle of S. Iames. Kemnitius , and other Luth. the second of Peter , the second and third of Iohn . The Epist. to the Heb. the Epist. of Iames , of Iude , and the Apocalyps . Therefore without the Authority of the Church , no certainty can be had what Scripture is Canonicall . 34 So also the Ancient Fathers , and not only Fathers , but whole Churches differed about the certainty of the authority of the very same bookes : and by their difference shewed , they knew no necessity of conforming themselves herein to the judgement of your or any Church . For had they done so , they must have agreed all with that Church , and consequently among themselves . Now I pray tell me plainly , Had they sufficient certainty what Scripture was Canonicall , or had they not ? If they had not , it seemes there is no such great harme or danger in not having such a certainty whether some books be Canonicall or no , as you require : If they had , why may not Protestants , notwithstanding their differences , have sufficient certainty hereof , as well as the Ancient Fathers and Churches , notwithstanding theirs ? 35 You proceed . And whereas the Protestants of England in the 6. Art. have these words , In the name of the Holy Scripture we doe vnderstand those Bookes , of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church ; you demaund , what they meane by them ? Whether that by the Churches consent they are assured what Scriptures be Canonicall ? I Answer for them . Yes , they are so . And whereas you inferre from hence , This is to make the Church Iudge : I haue told you already , That of this Controversie we make the Church the Iudge ; but not the present Church , much lesse the present Roman Church , but the consent and testimony of the Ancient and Primitive Church . Which though it be but a highly probable inducement , and no demonstrative enforcement , yet me thinks you should not denie but it may be a sufficient ground of faith : Whose Faith , even of the Foundation of all your Faith , your Churches Authority , is built lastly and wholly upon Prudentiall Motives . 36 But by this Rule the whole booke of Esther must quit the Canon ; because it was excluded by some in the Church : by Melito , Athanasius , and Gregory Nazianzen . Then for ought I know he that should thinke he had reason to exclude it now , might be still in the Church as well as Melito , Athanasius , Nazianzen were . And while you thus inveigh against Luther , and charge him with Luciferian heresies ; for doing that which you in this very place confesse that Saints in Heaven before him have done , are you not partiall and a Iudge of evill thoughts ? 37 Luther's censures of Ecclesiastes , Iob , and the Prophets , though you make such tragedies with them , I see none of them but is capable of a tolerable construction , and far from having in them any fundamentall heresie . He that condemnes him for saying , the booke of Ecclesiastes is not full , That it hath many abrupt things , condemnes him , for ought I can see ; for speaking truth . And the rest of the censure is but a bold and blunt expression of the same thing . The booke of Iob may be a true History , and yet as many true stories are , and haue been an Argument of a Fable to set before us an example of Patience . And though the books of the Prophets were not written by themselves , but by their Disciples , yet it does not follow that they were written casually : ( Though I hope you will not damne all for Heretikes , that say , some books of Scripture were written casually . ) Neither is there any reason they should the sooner be call'd in question for being written by their Disciples , seeing being so written they had attestation from themselues . Was the Prophesie of Ieremie the lesse Canonicall , for being written by Baruch ? Or because S. Peter the Master dictated the Gospell , and S. Marke the Scholler writ it , is it the more likely to be called in Question ? 38 But leaving Luther , you returne to our English Canon of Scripture ; And tell us , that in the new testament , by the above mentioned rule , ( of whose Authority was never any doubt in the Church ) divers books must be canoniz'd . Not so For I may believe even those questioned bookes to have been written by the Apostles and to be Canonicall : but I cannot in reason believe this of them so undoubtedly , as of those books which were never questioned . At least I have no warrant to damne any man that shall doubt of them or deny them now : having the example of Saints in Heaven , either to justify , or excuse such their doubting or deniall . 39 You observe in the next place , that our sixt Article , specifying by name all the bookes of the Old Tstament , sh●ffles over these of the New with this generality — All the books of the New Testament , as they are commonly received , we doe receive , and account them Canonicall : And in this you phansy to your selfe a mystery of iniquity . But if this be all the shuffling that the Church of England is guilty of , I believe the Church , as well as the King , may give for her Motto , Honi soit qui mal ● pense . For all the Bibles which since the composing of the Articles have been used and allowed by the Church of England , doe testify and even proclaime to the World , that by - Cōmonly received , they meant , received by the Church of Rome , and other Churches before the Reformation . I pray take the paines to look in them , and there you shall finde the bookes which the Church of England counts Apocryphall marked out and severed from the rest , with this title in the begining , The bookes called Apocrypha ; and with this close or seal in the end , The end of the Apocrypha . And having told you by name , and in particular , what bookes only shee esteemes Apocryphall , I hope you will not put her to the trouble of telling you that the rest are in her judgement Canonicall . 40 But if by Commonly received , shee meant , by the Church of Rome ; Then by the same reason , must she receive divers books of the old Testament which she reiects . 41 Certainly a very good consequence . The Church of England receives the Bookes of the New Testament , which the Church of Rome receives ; Therefore she must receive the bookes of the old Testament which she receives . As if you should say , If you will doe as we , in one thing , you must in all things . If you will pray to God with us , ye must pray to Saints with us . If you hold with us , when we have reason on our side , you must doe so , when we have no reason . 42 The discourse following is but a vaine declamation . No man thinks that this Controversie is to be tryed by most voices , but by the Iudgement and Testimony of the ancient Fathers and Churches . 43 But , with what Coherence can we say in the former part of the Article , That by Scripture we mean those Bookes that were never doubted of ; and in the latter say , We receive all the bookes of the new Testament , as they are commonly received , whereas of them many were doubted ? I answere . When they say , of whose authority there was never any doubt in the Church , They mean not , those only of whose Authority there was simply no doubt at all , by any man in the Church ; But such as were not at any time doubted of by the whole Church , or by all Churches , but had attestation , though not universall , yet at least sufficient to make considering men receive them for Canonicall . In which number they may well reckon those Epistles which were sometimes doubted of by some , yet whose number and authority was not so great , as to prevaile against the contrary suffrages . 44 But , if to be commonly received , passefor a good rule to know the Canon of the new Testament by , why not of the Old ? You conclude many times very well , but still when you doe so , it is out of principles which no man grants . For who ever told you , that to be commonly received is a good Rule to know the Canon of the New Testament by ? Have you been train'd up in Schooles of subtilty , and cannot you see a great difference , between these two , We receive the bookes of the new Testament as they are commonly received , and we receive those that are commonly received , because they are so ? To say this , were indeed to make , being commonly received , a Rule or Reason to know the Canon by . But to say the former , doth no more make it a Rule , then you should make the Church of England the rule of your receiving them , if you should say , as you may , The bookes of the New Testament we receive for Canonicall , as they are received by the Church of England . 45 You demand , upon what infallible ground we agree with Luther against you , in some , and with you against Luther in others ? And I also demand upon what infallible ground you hold your Canon , & agree neither with us , nor Luther ? For sure your differing from us both , is of it selfe no more apparently reasonable , then our agreeing with you in part , and in part with Luther . If you say , your Churches infallibility is your ground : I demand againe some infallible ground both for the Churches infallibility , and for this , that Yours is the Church ; and shall never cease multiplying demands upon demands , untill you settle me upon a Rock ; I mean , giue such an Answer , whose Truth is so evident that it needs no further evidence . If you say , This is Vniversall Tradition : I reply , your Churches infallibility is not built upon it , and that the Canon of Scripture , as we receiue it , is . For wee doe not professe our selues so absolutely , and and undoubtedly certain ; neither doe we urge others to be so , of those Books , which haue been doubted , as of those that never haue . 46 The Conclusion of your Tenth § is , That the Divinity of a writing cannot be known from it selfe alone , but by some extrinsecall authority : Which you need not proue , for no wise man denies it . But then this authority is that of Vniversall Tradition , not of your Church . For to me it is altogether as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that the Gospell of Saint Mathew is the word of God , as that all which your Church saies is true . 47 That Believers of the Scripture , by considering the divine matter , the excellent precepts , the glorious promises contained in it , may be confirmed in their faith , of the Scriptures divine Authority ; & that among other inducements and inforcements hereunto , internall arguments haue their place and force , certainly no man of understanding can deny . For my part I professe , if the doctrine of the Scripture were not as good , and as fit to come from the fountain of goodnesse , as the Miracles , by which it was confirm'd , were great , I should want one main pillar of my faith , and for want of it , I feare should be much stagger'd in it . Now this and nothing else did the Doctor mean in saying , The Belieuer sees , by that glorious beam of divine light which shines in Scripture , and by many internall Arguments , that the Scripture is of Divine Authority . By this ( saith he ) he sees it , that is , hee is moved to , and strengthned in his beliefe of it : and by this partly , not wholly ; by this , not alone , but with the concurrence of other Arguments . He that will quarrell with him for saying so , must finde fault with the Master of the Sentences , and all his Schollers ; for they all say the same . The rest of this Paragraph , I am as willing it should be true● , as you are to haue it : and so let it passe , as a discourse wherein we are wholy unconcern'd . You might haue met with an Answerer that would not haue suffred you to haue said so much Truth together , but to me it is sufficient , that it is nothing to the purpose . 48 In the next Division , out of your liberality , you will suppose , that Scripture , like to a corporall light , is by it selfe alone able to determine and moue our understanding to assent : yet notwithstanding this supposall , Faith still ( you say ) must goe before Scripture , because as the light is visible only to those that haue eyes : so the Scripture onely to those that haue the Eye of Faith. But to my understanding , if Scripture doe moue and determine our Vnderstanding to assent , then the Scripture , and its moving must be before this assent , as the cause must bee before its own effect ; now this very assent is nothing else but Faith , and Faith nothing else then the Vnderstanding's assent . And therefore ( upon this supposall ) Faith doth ▪ and must originally proceed from Scripture , as the effect from its proper cause : and the influence and efficacy of Scripture is to be presuppos'd before the assent of faith , unto which it moues and determines , and consequently if this supposition of yours were true , there should need no other meanes precedent to Scripture to beget Faith , Scripture it selfe being able ( as here you suppose ) to determine and moue the understanding to assent , that is to belieue them , and the Verities contained in them . Neither is this to say , that the eyes with which we see , are made by the light by which we see . For you are mistaken much , if you conceiue that in this comparison , Faith answers to the Eye . But if you will not pervert it , the Analogie must stand thus● ; Scripture must answer to light ; The eye of the soule , that is the Vnderstanding , or the faculty of assenting , to the bodily eye ; And lastly assenting or believing to the act of seeing . As therefore the light , determining the Eye to see , though it presupposes the Eye which it determines , as every Action doth the object on which it is imployed , yet it selfe is presuppos'd and antecedent to the act of seeing , as the cause is alwaies to its effect : So , if you will suppose that Scripture , like light , moues the understanding to assent , The Vnderstanding ( that 's the eye and object on which it works ) must bee before this influence upon it ; But the Assent , that is the beliefe whereto the Scripture moues , and the understanding is mov'd , which answers to the act of seeing , must come after . For if it did assent already , to what purpose should the Scripture doe that which was done before ? Nay indeed how were it possible it should be so , any more then a Father can beget a Sonne that he hath already ? Or an Architect build an house that is built already ? Or then this very world can bee made againe before it be unmade ? Transubstantiation indeed is fruitfull of such Monsters . But they that haue not sworne themselues to the defence of Errour , will easily perceiue , that I am factum facere , and Factum infectum facere , are equally impossible . But I digresse . 49 The close of this Paragraph , is a fit cover for such a dish . There you tell us , That if there must be some other meanes precedent to Scripture to beget faith , this can be no other then the Church . By the Church , we know you doe , and must understand the Roman Church : so that in effect you say , no man can haue faith , but he must bee mou'd to it by your Churches Authority . And that is to say , that the King and all other Protestants , to whom you write , though they verily think they are Christians & belieue the Gospell , because they assent to the truth of it , and would willingly dye for it , yet indeed are Infidels and belieue nothing . The Scripture tells us , The heart of man knoweth no man , but the spirit of man which is in him . And who are you , to take upon you to make us belieue , that we doe not belieue , what we know we doe ? But if I may think verily that I belieue the Scripture , and yet not belieue it ; how know you that you belieue the Roman Church ? I am as verily , and as strongly perswaded that I belieue the Scripture , as you are that you belieue the Church . And if I may be deceived , why may not you ? Againe , what more ridiculous , and against sense and experience , then to affirme , That there are not millions amongst you and us that belieue , upon no other reason then their education , and the authority of their Parents and Teachers , and the opinion they haue of them ? The tendernesse of the subject , and aptnesse to receiue impressions , supplying the defect and imperfection of the Agent ! And will you proscribe from heaven all those believers of your own Creed , who doe indeed lay the foundation of their Faith ( for I cannot call it by any other name ) no deeper then upon the Authority of their Father , or Master , or parish Priest ? Certainly , if these haue no true faith , your Church is very full of Infidels . Suppose Xaverius by the holynesse of his life had converted some Indians to Christianity , who could ( for so I will suppose ) haue no knowledge of your Church but from him , and therefore must last of all build their Faith of the Church upon their Opinion of Xaverius : Doe these remain as very Pagans after their conversion , as they were before ? Are they brought to assent in their soules , and obey in their liues the Gospell of Christ , only to be Tantaliz'd and not saved , and not benefited but deluded by it , because , forsooth , it is a man and not the Church that begets faith in them ? What if their motiue to beleeue be not in reason sufficient ? Doe they therefore not belieue what they doe belieue , because they doe it upon insufficient motiues ? They choose the Faith imprudently perhaps , but yet they doe choose it . Vnlesse you will haue us belieue that , that which is done , is not done , because it is not done upō good reason : which is to say , that never any man living ever did a foolish action . But yet I know not why the Authority of one holy man , which apparently has no ends upon me , joyn'd with the goodnesse of the Christian faith , might not be a far greater and more rationall motiue to me to imbrace Christianity , then any I can haue to continue in Paganisme . And therefore for shame , if not for loue of Truth , you must recant this fancie when you write again : and suffer true faith to be many times , where your Churches infallibility has no hand in the begetting of it . And be content to tell us hereafter , that we belieue not enough , and not goe about to perswade us , we belieue nothing , for feare with telling us what we know to be manifestly false , you should gain only this , Not to be believed when you speak truth . Some pretty sophismes you may happily bring us to make us belieue , we belieue nothing : but wise men know that Reason against Experience is alwaies Sophisticall . And therefore as he that could not answer Zenoe's subtilities against the existence of Motion , could yet confute them by doing that , which he pretended could not be done : So if you should giue me a hundred Arguments to perswade me , because I doe not belieue Transubstantiation ▪ I doe not believe in God , and the Knots of them I could not untie , yet I should cut them in peeces with doing that , and knowing that I doe so , which you pretend I cannot doe . 50 In the thirteenth division , we haue again much adoe about nothing . A great deal of stirre you keep in confuting some , that pretend to know Canonicall Scripture to be such , by the Titles of the Books . But these men you doe not name , which makes me suspect you cannot . Yet it is possible there may be some such men in the world ; for Gusman de Alfarache hath taught us that the Fooles hospitall is a large place . 51 In the fourteenth § . we haue very artificiall jugling . D. Potter had said , That the Scripture ( hee desires to bee understood of those books wherein all Christians agree ) is a principle , and needs not be proved among Christians . His reason was , because that needs no farther proofe which is believed already . Now by this ( you say ) he meanes either , that the Scripture is one of these first Principles , and most known in all sciences , which cannot be proved : which is to suppose , it cannot be proved by the Church ; and that is to suppose the Question : Or hee meanes , That it is not the most known in Christianity , & then it may be prov'd . Where we see plainly , That two most different things , Most known in all Sciences , & Most known in Christianity , are captiously confounded . As if the Scripture might not be the first and most knowne Principle in Christianity , and yet not the most knowne in all Sciences ? Or as if to be a First Principle in Christianity , and in all Sciences , were all one ? That Scripture is a Principle among Christians , that is , so received by all that it need not be proved in any emergent Controversie to any Christian , but may be taken for granted , I think few will deny . You your selues are of this a sufficient Testimony ; for urging against us many texts of Scripture , you offer no proofe of the truth of them , presuming we will not question it . Yet this is not to deny that Tradition is a Principle more knowne then Scripture ; But to say , it is a principle not in Christianity but in Reason , nor proper to Christians , but common to all men . 52 But , it is repugnant to our practice to hold Scripture a Principle ; because we are wont to affirme , that one part of Scripture may be knowne to be Canonicall , and may be interpreted by another . Where the former device is againe put in practice . For to be known to be Canonicall , and to be interpreted is not all one . That Scripture may be interpreted by Scripture , that Protestants grant , and Papists doe not deny ; neither does that any way hinder but that this assertion — Scripture is the word of God , may be among Christians a common Principle . But the first , ●That one part of Scripture may proue another part Canonicall , and need no proofe of its own being so ; for that , you haue produc'd divers Protestants that deny it ; but who they are that affirme it , nondum Constat . 53 It is superfluous for you to proue out of S. Athanasius , & S. Austine that we must receiue the sacred Canon upon the credit of Gods Church . Vnderstanding by Church , as here you explaine your selfe , The credit of Tradition . And that not the Tradition of the Present Church , which we pretend may deviate from the Ancient , but such a Tradition , which involues an evidence of Fact , and from hand to hand , from age to age , bringing us up to the times and persons of the Apostles , and our Saviour himselfe , commeth to be confirm'd by all these Miracles and other Arguments , whereby they convinc'd their doctrine to be true . Thus you . Now proue the Canon of Scripture which you receive by such Tradition and we will allow it . Proue your whole doctrine , or the infallibility of your Church by such a Tradition , & we will yeeld to you in all things . Take the alleaged places of S. Athanasius , and S. Austine , in this sense , ( which is your own , ) and they will not presse us any thing at all . We will say , with Athanasius , That only foure Gospels are to be received , because the Canons of the Holy and Catholique Church ( understand of all Ages since the perfection of the Canon ) haue so determined . 54 We will subscribe to S. Austin , and say , That we also would not belieue the Gospell , unlesse the Authority of the Catholique Church did moue us , ( meaning by the Church , the Church of all Ages , and that succession of Christians which takes in Christ himselfe and his Apostles . ) Neither would Zwinglius haue needed to cry out upon this saying , had he conceived as you now doe , that by the Catholique Church , the Church of all Ages , since Christ , was to be understood . As for the Councell of Carthage , it may speak not of such Books only , as were certainly Canonicall , and for the regulating of Faith , but also of those which were onely profitable , and lawfull to be read in the Church . Which in England is a very slender Argument that the book is Canonicall , where every body knowes that Apocryphall books are read as well as Canonicall . But howsoever , if you understand by Fathers , not only their immediate Fathers and Predecessors in the Gospell , but the succession of them from the Apostles ; they are right in the Thesis , that whatsoever is received from these Fathers , as Canonicall , is to be so esteem'd ; Though in the application of it , to this or that particular book they may happily erre , and think that Book received as Canonicall , which was only received as Profitable to be read ; and think that Book , received alwaies , and by all , which was rejected by some , and doubted of by many . 55 But we cannot be certain , in what language the Scriptures remaine uncorrupted . Not so certain , I grant , as of that which wee can demonstrate : But certain enough , morally certain , as certain as the nature of the thing will beare . So certain we may be , and God requires no more . We may be as certain as S. Austin was , who in his second book of Baptisme , against the Donatists , c. 3. plainly implies , the Scripture might possibly be corrupted . He meanes sure in matters of little moment , such as concerne not the Covenant between God and Man. But thus he saith . The same S. Austin in his 48. Epist. cleerly intimates , a That in his judgement , the only preservatiue of the Scriptures integritie , was the translating it into so many Languages , and the generall and perpetuall use and reading of it in the Church : for want whereof the works of particular Doctors were more exposed to danger in this kinde ; but the Canonicall Scripture being by this meanes guarded with universall care and diligence was not obnoxious to such attempts . And this assurance of the Scripture's incorruption , is common to us with him ; we therefore are as certain hereof as S. Austin was , & that I hope was certain enough . Yet if this does not satisfie you , I say farther , We are as certain hereof as your own Pope Sixtus Quintus was . He in his Preface to his Bible tells us : b That in the pervestigation of the true and genuine Text , it was perspicuously manifest to all men , that there was no Argument more ●●rme and certain to be relied upon , then the Faith of Ancient Books . Now this ground wee haue to build upon as well as He had : and therefore our certainty is as great , and stands upon as certain ground as his did . 56 This is not all I haue to say in this matter . For I will adde moreover , that we are as certaine in what Language the Scripture is uncorrupted , as any man in your Church was , untill Clement the 8th set forth your own approved Edition of your Vulgar translation . For you doe not , nor cannot , without extreme impudence deny , that untill then , there was great variety of Copies currant in divers parts of your Church , and those very frequent in various lections : all which Copies might possibly be false in some things , but more then one sort of them , could not possibly be true in all things . Neither were it lesse impudence to pretend , that any man in your Church , could untill Clement's time haue any certainty what that one true Copie and reading was ( if there were any one perfectly true . ) Some indeed that had got Sixtus his Bible , might after the Edition of that very likely think them selues cock-sure of a perfect true uncorrupted Translation , without being beholding to Clement ; but how fowly they were abused and deceived that thought so , the Edition of Clemens , differing from that of Sixtus in a great multitude of places , doth sufficiently demonstrate . 57 This certainty therefore in what language the Scripture remaines uncorrupted , is it necessary to haue it , or is it not ? If it be not , I hope we may doe well enough without it . If it be necessary , what became of your Church for 1500 yeares together ? All which time you must confesse she had no such certainty : no one man being able truly and upon good ground to say , This or that Copy of the Bible is pure , and perfect , and uncorrupted in all things . And now at this present , though some of you are growne to a higher degree of Presumption in this point , yet are you as farre as ever , from any true and reall , and rationall assurance of the absolute purity of your Authentique Translation : which I suppose my selfe to haue prou'd unanswerably in divers places . 58 In the sixteenth Division , It is objected to Protestants in a long discourse transcrib'd out of the Protestants Apologie , That their translations of the Scripture are very different , and by each other mutually condemned ▪ Luthers Translation by Zwinglius , and others : That of the Zwinglians by Luther . The Translation of Oecolampadius , by the Divines of Basill : that of Castalio by Beza : That of Beza by Castalio . That of Calvin , by Carolus Molinaeus . That of Geneva by M. Parks , & King Iames. And lastly one of our Translations by the Puritans . 59 All which might haue been as justly objected against that great variety of Translations extant in the Primitive Church , & m●de use of by the Fathers and Doctors of it . For which I desire not that my word , but S. Austin's may be taken . They which haue translated the Scriptures out of the Hebrew into Greek , may be numbred , but the Latine Interpreters are innumerable . For whensoever any one , in the first times of Christianity , met with a Greek Bible , and seem'd to himselfe to haue some ability in both Languages , he presently ventur'd upon an Interpretation . So He , in his second book of Christian doctrine . Cap. 11. Of all these , that which was called the Italian Translation was esteemed best ; so we may learne from the same S. Austin in the 15. Chap. of the same book . Amongst all these Interpretations ( saith he ) let the Italian be preferr'd : for it keeps closer to the Letter , and is perspicuous in the sense . Yet so farre was the Church of that time from presuming upon the absolute puritie and perfection , even of this best Translation , that S. Hierome thought it necessary to make a new Translation of the Old Testament , out of the Hebrew fountain , ( which himselfe testifies in his Book de Viris illustribus , ) And to correct the vulgar version of the New Testament , according to the truth of the Originall Greek ; amending many errors which had crept into it , whether by the mistake of the Author , or the negligence of the Transcribers ; which work he undertook & performed at the request of Damasus , Bishop of Rome . You constraine mee ( saith he ) to make a new work of an old : that after the Copies of the Scriptures haue been dispersed through the whole world , I should sit as it were an Arbitratour amongst them , and because they vary among themselues , should determine what are those things ( in them ) which consent with the Greek verity . And after : Therefore this present Preface promises the foure Gospels only corrected by collation with Greek Copies . But that they might not be very dissonant from the custome of the Latine Reading , I haue so tempered with my stile , the Translation of the Ancients , that , those things amended which did seem to change the sense , other things I haue suffered to remain as they were . So that in this matter Protestants must either stand or fall with the Primitiue Church . 60 The Corruption that you charge Luther with , and the falsification that you impute to Zwinglius , what haue we to doe with them ? or why may not we as justly lay to your charge the Errours which Lyranus , or Paulus Brugensis , or Laurentius Valla , or Cajetan , or Erasmus , or Arias Montanus , or Augustus ▪ Nebiensis , or Pagnine , haue committed in their Translations . 61 Which yet I say not , as if these Translations of Luther and Zwinglius were absolutely indefensible ; for what such great difference is there between Faith without the Works of the Law , and Faith alone without the Works of the Law ? or why does not , Without , Alone , signifie all one with , Alone , Without ? Consider the matter a little better , and obserue the use of these phrases of speech in our ordinary talke , and perhaps you will begin to doubt whether you had sufficient ground for this invectiue . And then for Zwinglius , if it bee true ( as they say it is ) that the language our Saviour spake in , had no such word as , To signifie , but used alwaies , to be , insteed of it , as it is certain the Scripture does in a hundred places ; then this Translation , which you so declaim against , will prove no falsification in Zwinglius , but a calumny in you . 62 But the faith of Protestants relies upon Scripture alone ; Scripture is delivered to most of them by Translations ; Translations depend upon the skill and honesty of Men , who certainly may erre because they are Men , and certainly doe erre , at least some of them , because their Translations are contrary . It seemes then the Faith , and consequently the Salvation of Protestants relies upon fallible and uncertaine grounds . 63 This Objection , though it may seeme to doe you great service for the present ; yet I feare you will repent the time that ever you urged it against us as a fault , that we make mens salvation depend upon uncertainties . For the objection returnes upon you many waies , as first thus ; The salvation of many millions of Papists ( as they suppose and teach ) depends upon their having the Sacrament of Pennance truly administred unto them . This again upon the Minister's being a true Priest. That such or such a man is Priest , not himselfe , much lesse any other can haue any possible certainty : for it depends upon a great many contingent and uncertain supposals . He that will pretend to be certain of it , must undertake to know for a certain all these things that follow . 64 First that he was baptized with due Matter . Secondly , with the due forme of words , ( which he cannot know , unlesse he were both present and attentiue . ) Thirdly , he must know that hee was baptiz'd with due Intention , and that is , that the Minister of his Baptisme was not a secret Iew , nor a Moore , nor an Atheist , ( of all which kinds , I feare experience giues you just cause to feare , that Italy and Spaine haue Priests not a few , ) but a Christian in heart , as well as Profession ; ( otherwise believing the Sacrament to be nothing , in giving it he could intend to giue nothing , ) nor a Sam●satenian , nor an Arrian : but one that was capable of having due intention , from which they that belieue not the doctrine of the Trinity are excluded by you . And lastly , that he was neither drunk nor distracted at the administration of the Sacrament , nor out of negligence or malice omitted his intention . 65 Fourthly , he must undertake to know , that the Bishop which ordained him Priest , ordained him compleatly with due Matter , Form and Intention : and consequently , that he againe was neither Iew , nor Moore , nor Atheist , nor lyable to any such exception , as is unconsistent with due Intention in giving the Sacrament of Orders . 66 Fiftly , he must undertake to know , that the Bishop which made him Priest , was a Priest himselfe , for your rule is , Nihil dat quod non habet : And consequently , that there was again none of the former nullities in his Baptisme , which might make him incapable of Ordination ; nor no invalidity in his Ordination , but a true Priest to ordaine him again , the requisite matter and forme and due intention all concurring . 67 Lastly , he must pretend to know the same of him that made him Priest , and him that made Him Priest , even untill he comes to the very fountain of Priesthood . For take any one in the whole train & succession of Ordainers , & suppose him , by reason of any defect , only a supposed & not a true Priest , then according to your doctrine he could not give a true , but only a supposed Priesthood ; and they that receive it of him , & again , they that derive it from thē , can give no better then they received ; receiving nothing but a name and shadow , can give nothing but a name and shadow : and so from age to age , from generation to generation being equivocall Fathers , beget only equivocall Sons ; No Principle in Geometry being more certain then this , That the unsuppliable defect of any necessary Antecedent , must needs cause a nullity of all those Consequences which depend upon it . In fine , to know this one thing , you must first know ten thousand others , whereof not any one is a thing that can be known ; there being no necessity that it should be true , which only can qualify any thing for an object of Science , but only , at the best , a high degree of probability that it is so . But then , that often thousand probables , no one should be false ; that of ten thousand requisites , whereof any one may faile , not one should be wanting , this to mee is extreamly improbable , and even cosen german to Impossible . So that the assurance hereof is like a machine composed of an innumerable multitude of pieces , of which it is strangely unlikely but some will be out of order ; and yet if any one be so , the whole fabrick of necessity falls to the ground . And he that shall put together , and maturely consider all the possible waies of lapsing , and nullifying a Priesthood in the Church of Rome , I believe will be very inclinable to think , that it is an hundred to one , that amongst a hundred seeming Priests , there is not one true one . Nay , that it is not a thing very improbable , that amongst those many millions , which make up the Romish Hierarchy , there are not twenty true . But be the truth in this what it will be , once this is certain , that They which make mens salvation ( as you doe ) depend upon Priestly Absolution , and this again ( as you doe ) upon the Truth and reality of the Priesthood that gives it , and this lastly upon a great multitude of apparent uncertainties , are not the fittest men in the world , to object to others as a horrible crime , That they make mens Salvation depend upon fallible and uncertain foundations . And let this be the first retortion of your Argument . 68 But suppose this difficulty assoyled , and that an Angell from Heaven should ascertain you ( for other assurances you can have none ) that the person , you make use of , is a true Priest , and a competent Minister of the Sacrament of Pennance ; yet still the doubt will remain , whether he will doe you that good which he can doe , whether he will pronounce the absolving words with intent to absolve you ! For perhaps he may bear you some secret malice , and project to himselfe your damnation , for a compleat Italian revenge . Perhaps ( as the tale is of a Priest that was lately burnt in France ) he may upon some conditions have compacted with the Divell to give no Sacraments with Intention . Lastly , he may be ( for ought you can possibly know ) a secret Iew , or Moore , or Anti-Trinitarian , or perhaps such a one as is so farre from intending your forgivenesse of sinnes and salvation by this Sacrament , that in his heart he laughes at all these things , and thinkes Sinne nothing , and Salvation a word . All these doubts you must have cleerely resolved ( which can hardly be done but by another Revelatiō , ) before you can upon good grounds assure your selfe , that your true Priest gives you true and effectuall absolution . So that when you have done as much as God requires for your Salvation , yet can you by no means be secure , but that you may have the ill luck to be damn'd : which is to make Salvation a matter of chaunce , and not of choice , and which a man may faile of , not only by an ill life , but by ill fortune . Verily a most comfortable Doctrine for a considering man lying upon death bed , who either feeles or feares that his repentance is but attritiō only , and not contrition , and consequently believes that if he be not absolved really by a true Priest , he cannot possibly escape damnation . Such a man for his comfort , you tell , first ( you that will have mens salvation depend upon no uncertainties , ) that though he verily believe that his sorrow for sinnes is a true sorrow , and his purpose of amendment a true purpose ; yet he may deceive himselfe , perhaps it is not , and if it be not , he must be damned . Yet you bid him hope well : But Spes est rei incertae nomen . You tell him secondly , that though the party he confesses to , seem to be a true Priest , yet for ought he knowes , or for ought himselfe knowes , by reason of some secret undiscernable invalidity in his Baptisme or Ordination , he may be none : and if he be none , he can doe nothing . This is a hard saying , but this is not the worst . You tell him thirdly , that he may be in such a state that he cannot , or if he can , that he will not give the Sacrament with due Intention : and if he does not , all 's in vaine . Put case a man by these considerations should be cast into some agonies ; what advise , what comfort would you give him ? Verily I know not what you could say to him , but this ; that first for the Qualification required on his part , he might know that he desired to have true sorrow , and that that is sufficient . But then if he should aske you , why he might not know his sorrow to be a true sorrow , as well as his desire to be sorrowfull , to be a true desire , I believe you would be put to silence . Then secondly , to quiet his feares , concerning the Priest and his intention you should tell him , by my advice , that Gods goodnesse ( which will not suffer him to damne men for not doing better then their best , ) will supply all such defects as to humane endeavours were unavoidable . And therefore though his Priest were indeed no Priest , yet to him he should be as if he were one : and if he gave Absolution without Intention , yet in doing so he should hurt himselfe only and not his penitent . This were some comfort indeed , and this were to settle mens salvation upon reasonable certain grounds . But this I fear you will never say ; for this were to reverse many Doctrines established by your Church , and besides to degrade your Priesthood from a great part of their honour , by lessening the strict necessity of the Laities dependance upon them . For it were to say , that the Priests Intention is not necessary to the obtaining of absolution ; which is to say , that it is not in the Parsons power to damne whom he will in his Parish , because by this rule , God should supply the defect which his malice had caused . And besides it were to say , that Infants dying without Baptisme might be saved , God supplying the want of baptisme which to them is unavoidable . But beyond all this , it were to put into my mouth a full and satisfying answere to your Argument , which I am now returning , so that in answering my objection you should answer your own . For then I should tell you , that it were altogether as abhorrent from the goodnesse of God , and as repugnant to it , to suffer an ignorant Lay-mans soule to perish , meerely for being misled by an undiscernable false Translation , which yet was commended to him by the Church , which ( being of necessity to credit some in this matter ) he had reason to rely upon either above all other ; or as much as any other , as it is to damne a penitent sinner for a secret defect in that desired Absolution , which his Ghostly Father perhaps was an Atheist and could not give him , o● was a villain and would not . This answere therefore , which alone would serve to comfort your penitent in his perplexities , and to assure him that he cannot faile of Salvation if he will not , for feare of inconveniences you must forbeare . And seeing you must , I hope you will come down from the Pulpit , and preach no more against others for making mens Salvation depend upon fallible and uncertain grounds , least by judging others , you make your selves and your own Church inexcusable , who are strongly guilty of this fault , above all the men and Churches of the World : whereof I have already given you two very pregnant demonstrations , drawn from your presumptions tying God and Salvation to your Sacraments ; And the efficacy of them to your Priests Qualifications and Intentions . 69 Your making the Salvation of Infants depend on Baptisme a Casuall thing , and in the power of man to conferre , or not conferre , would yeild me a Third of the same nature . And your suspending the same on the Baptizer's intention a Fourth . And lastly your making the Reall presence of Christ in the Eucharist depend upon the casualties of the consecrators true Priesthood and Intention , and yet commanding men to believe it for certain that he is present , and to adore the Sacrament , which according to your Doctrine , for ought they can possibly know , may be nothing else but a piece of bread , so exposing them to the danger of Idolatry , and consequently of damnation , doth offer me a Fift demonstration of the same conclusion , if I thought fit to insist upon them . But I have no mind to draw any more out of this Fountaine ; neither doe I think it charity to cloy the Reader with uniformity , when the subject affords variety . 70 Sixtly , therefore I returne it thus . The faith of Papists relyes alone upon their Churches infallibility . That there is any Church infallible , and that Theirs is it , they pretend not to believe , but only upon prudentiall motives . Dependance upon prudentiall motives they confesse to be obnoxious to a possibility of erring . What then remaineth but Truth , Faith , Salvation , and all must in them rely upon a fallible and uncertain ground ! 71 Seventhly , The faith of Papists relies upon the Church alone . The Doctrine of the Church is delivered to most of them by their Parish Priest , or Ghostly Father , or at least by a company of Priests , who for the most part sure , are men and not Angels , in whom nothing is more certain then a most certain possibility to erre . What then remaineth but that Truth , Faith , Salvation and all , must in them rely upon a fallible and uncertain ground . 72 Eightly thus . It is apparent and undeniable , that many Thousands there are , who believe your Religion upon no better grounds , then a man may have for the beliefe almost of any Religion . As some believe it , because their forefathers did so , and they were good People . Some , because they were Christened , and brought up in it . Some , because many Learned and Religious men are of it . Some , because it is the Religion of their Country , where all other Religions are persecuted and proscribed ▪ Some , because Protestants cannot shew a perpetuall succession of Professors of all their Doctrine . Some , because the service of your Church is more stately , and pompous , & magnificent . Some , because they find comfort in it . Some , because your Religion is farther spread , and hath more professors of it , then the Religion of Protestants . Some , because your Priests compasse Sea and Land to gain Proselytes to it . Lastly , an infinite number , by chance , and they know not why , but only because they are sure they are in the right . This which I say is a most certain experimented truth , and if you will deale ingenuously , you will not deny it . And without question he that builds his faith upon our English Translation , goes upon a more prudent ground then any of these can , with reason , be pretended to be . What then can you alleadge but that , with you , rather then with us , Truth and Faith and Salvation and all relies upon fallible and uncertain grounds . 73 Ninthly . Your Rhemish and Doway Translations are delivered to your Proselytes , ( such I mean that are dispen●'d with for the reading of them , ) for the direction of their Faith and lives . And the same may be said of your Translations of the Bible into other nationall languages , in respect of those that are licenc'd to read them . This I presume you will confesse . And moreover , that these Translations came not by inspiration , but were the productions of humane Industry ; and that not Angels , but men were the Authors of them . Men I say , meere men , subject to the same Passions and to the same possibility of erring with our Translatours . And then how does it not unavoidably follow , that in them which depend upon these translations for their direction , Faith , and Truth , and Salvation , and all relies upon fallible and uncertain grounds ? 74 Tenthly and lastly ( to lay the axe to the root of the tree , ) the Helena which you so fight for , your vulgar Translation , though some of you believe , or pretend to believe , it to be in every part and particle of it , the pure and uncorrupted word of God ; yet others among you , and those as good & zealous Catholiques as you , are not so confident hereof . 75 First , for all those who have made Translations of the whole Bible or any part of it different many times in sense from the Vulgar , as Lyranus , Cajetan , Pagnine , Arias , Erasmus , Valla , Steuchus , and others , it is apparent and even palpable , that they never dreamt of any absolute perfection and authenticall infallibility of the Vulgar Translation . For if they had , why did they in many places reject it and differ from it ? 76 Vega was present at the Councell of Trent , when that decree was made , which made the Vulgar Edition ( then not extant any where in the world ) authenticall , and not to be rejected upon any pretense whatsoever . At the forming this decree Vega I say was present , understood the mind of the Councell , as well as any man , and professes that he was instructed in it by the President of it , the Cardinall S. Cruce . And yet he hath written that the Councell in this decree , meant to pronounce this Translation free ( not simply from all error ) but only from such errors , out of which any opinion pernitious to faith and manners might be collected . This , Andradius in his defence of that Councell reports of Vega , and assents to it himselfe . Driedo , in his book of the Translation of Holy Scripture , hath these words very pregnant and pertinent to the same purpose ; The See Apostolike , hath approved or accepted Hieroms Edition , not as so wholly consonant to the Originall , and so entire and pure and restored in all things , that it may not be lawfull for any man , either by comparing it with the Fountaine to examine it , or in some places to doubt , whether or no Hierome did understand the true sense of the Scripture ; but only as an Edition to be prefer'd before all others then extant , and no where deviating from the truth in the rules of faith and good life . Mariana , even where he is a most earnest Advocate for the Vulgar Edition , yet acknowledges the imperfection of it in these words , The faults of the Vulgar Edition are not approved by the Decree of the Councell of Trent , a multitude whereof we did collect from the variety of Copies . And againe , We maintaine that the Hebrew and Greeke , were by no meanes rejected by the Trent Fathers : And that the Latine edition is indeed approved , yet not so , as if they did deny that some places might be translated more plainly , some more properly ; whereof it were easy to produce innumerable examples . And this he there professes to have learnt of Laines the then Generall of the Society : who was a great part of that Councell , present at all the Actions of it , and of very great authority in it . 77 To this so great authority he addes a reason of his opinion , which with all indifferent men will be of a farre greater authority . If the Councell ( saith he ) had purposed to approve an Edition in all respects , and to make it of equall authority and credit with the Fountaines , certainly they ought with exact care first to have corrected the errors of the Interpreter : which certainly they did not . 78 Lastly Bellarmine himselfe , though he will not acknowledge any imperfection in the Vulgar Edition , yet he acknowledges that the case may , and does oft-times so fall out , that it is impossible to discerne which is the true reading of the Vulgar Edition , but only by recourse unto the Originalls , and dependance upon them . 79 From all which it may evidently be collected , that though some of you flatter your selves with a vain imagination of the certain absolute purity and perfection of your Vulgar Edition ; yet the matter is not so certain , and so resolved , but that the best learned men amongst you are often at a stand , and very doubtfull sometimes whether your Vulgar translation be true , and sometimes whether this or that be your Vulgar Translatiō , & sometimes undoubtedly resolved that your Vulgar Translation is no true Translation , nor consonant to the Originall , as it was at first delivered . And what thē can be alleadged , but that out of your own grounds it may be inferred & inforced upon you , that not only in your Lay-men , but your Clergy men & Schollers , Faith & Truth and Salvation & all depends upon fallible & uncertain grounds ? And thus by ten severall retortions of this one Argument , I have endeavoured to shew you , how ill you have complyed with your own advise , which was to take heed of urging arguments that might be return'd upon you . I should now by a direct answer , shew that it presseth not us at all : but I have in passing done it already , in the end of the second retortion of this argument , and thither I referre the Reader . 80 Whereas therefore , you exhort them that will have assurance of true Scriptures , to fly to your Church for it : I desire to know ( if they should follow your advise ) how they should be assured that your Church can give them any such assurance ; which hath been confessedly so negligent , as to suffer many whole books of Scripture to be utterly lost . Again , in those that remain , confessedly so negligent , as to suffer the Originalls of these that remain to be corrupted . And lastly , so carelesse of preserving the integrity of the Copies of her Translation , as to suffer infinite variety of Readings to come in to them , without keeping any one perfect Copy , which might have been as the Standard , and Polycletus his Canon to correct the rest by . So that which was the true reading , and which the false , it was utterly undiscernable , but only by comparing them with the Originalls , which also she pretends to be corrupted . 81 But Luther himselfe , by unfortunate experience , was at length enforced to confesse thus much , saying , If the world last longer , it will be again necessary to receive the Decrees of Councells , by reason of divers interpretations of Scripture which now reigne . 82 And what if Luther , having a Pope in his belly , ( as he was wont to say that most men had , ) and desiring perhaps to have his own interpretations passe without examining , spake such words in heat of Argument ? Doe you think it reasonable that we should subscribe to Luther's divinations and angry speeches ? will you oblige your selfe to answer for all the assertions of your private Doctors ? If not ; why doe you trouble us with what Luther saies , and what Calvin saies ? Yet this I say not , as if these words of Luther made any thing at all for your present purpose . For what if he feared , or pretended to feare , that , the infallibility of Councells being rejected , some men would fall into greater errors , then were impos'd upon them by the Councells ? Is this to confesse that there is any present visible Church , upon whose bare Authority we may infallibly receive the true Scriptures and the true sense of them ? Let the Reader judge . But in my opinion , to feare a greater inconvenience may follow from the avoiding of the lesse , is not to confesse that the lesse is none at all . 83 For D. Covels commending your Translation , what is it to the businesse in hand ? or how proves it the perfection of it , which is here contested , any more then S. Augustine's commending the Italian Translation , argues the perfection of that , or that there was no necessity that S. Hierome should correct it ? D. Covell commends your Translation , and so does the Bishop of Chichester , and so does D. Iames , and so doe I. But I commend it for a good Translation , not for a perfect . Good may be good , and deserve commendations ; and yet better may be better . And though he saies , that the then approved Translation of the Church of England , is that which cōmeth nearest the Vulgar , yet he does not say , that it agrees exactly with it . So that whereas you inferre , that the truth of your Translation must be the Rule to judge of the goodnesse of ours : this is but a vain florish . For to say of our Translations , That is the best which comes nearest the Vulgar , ( and yet it is but one man that saies so , ) is not to say , it is therefore the best because it does so . For this may be true by accident , and yet the truth of our Translation no way depend upon the truth of yours . For had that been their direction , they would not only have made a Translation that should come neere to yours , but such a one which should exactly agree with it , and be a Translation of your Translation . 84 Ad 17. § . In this Division you charge us with great uncertainty , concerning the true meaning of Scripture . Which hath been answered already , by saying , That if you speak of plain places , ( and in such all things necessary are contained , ) we are sufficiently certain of the meaning of them , neither need they any Interpreter . If of obscure and difficult places , we confesse we are uncertaine of the sense of many of them . But then we say there is no necessity we should be certain . For if Gods will had been we should haue understood him more certainly , he would haue spoken more plainly . And we say besides , that as we are uncertain , so are You too ; which he that doubts of , let him read your Commentators upon the Bible , and obserue their various and dissonant interpretations , and he shall in this point need no further satisfaction . 85 But seeing there are contentions among us , we are taught by nature and Scripture , and experience ( so you tell us out of M. Hooker ) to seek for the ending of them , by submitting unto some Iudiciall sentence , whereunto neither part may refuse to stand . This is very true . Neither should you need to persuade us to seek such a meanes of ending all our Controversies , if we could tell where to finde it . But this wee know , that none is fit to pronounce , for all the world , a judiciall definitiue obliging sentence in Controversies of Religion , but only such a Man , or such a society of Men , as is authoriz'd thereto by God. And besides we are able to demonstrate , that it hath not been the pleasure of God to giue to any Man , or Society of Men any such authority . And therefore though we wish heartily that all Controversies were ended , as we doe that all sinne were abolisht , yet we haue little hope of the one , or the other , till the World be ended . And in the mean while , think it best to content our selues with , and to persuade others unto an Vnity of Charity and mutuall toleration ; seeing God hath authoriz'd no man to force all men to Vnity of Opinion . Neither doe we think it fit to argue thus , To us it seemes convenient there should be one Iudge of all Controversies for the whole world , therefore God has appointed one : But more modest and more reasonable to collect thus , God hath appointed no such judge of Controversies , therefore , though it seemes to us convenient there should be one , yet it is not so : Or though it were convenient for us to haue one , yet it hath pleased God ( for Reasons best known to himselfe ) not to allow us this convenience . 86 D. Fields words which follow , I confesse , are somewhat more pressing : and if he had been infallible , and the words had not slipt unadvisedly from him , they were the best Argument in your Book . But yet it is evident out of his Book , & so acknowledg'd by some of your own , That he never thought of any one company of Christians invested with such authority from God , that all men were bound to receiue their Decrees without examination , though they seem contrary to Scripture and Reason , which the Church of Rome requires . And therefore if he haue in his Preface strained too high in cōmendation of the subject he writes of , ( as Writers very often doe in their Prefaces and Dedicatory Epistles ) what is that to us ? Besides , by all the Societies of the World , it is not impossible , nor very improbable , hee might meane all that are , or haue been in the world , and so include even the Primitiue Church : and her Communion we shall embrace , her Direction we shall follow , her Iudgement we shall rest in , if wee belieue the Scripture , endeavour to finde the true sense of it , and liue according to it . 87 Ad 18. § . That the true Interpretation of the Scripture ought to be receaved from the Church , you need not prove , for it is very easily granted by them , who professe themselves very ready to receiue all Truths , much more the true sense of Scripture , not only from the Church , but from any societie of men , nay from any man whatsoever . 88 That the Churches Interpretation of Scripture is alwaies true , that is it which you would haue said : and that in some sense may bee also admitted . viz. if your speake of that Church ( which before you spake of in the 14. § . ) that is , of the Church of all Ages since the Apostles . Vpon the Tradition of which Church , you there told us , We were to receiue the Scripture , and to belieue it to bee the Word of God. For there you teach us , that our Faith of Scripture depends on a Principle which requires no other proofe , And that , such is Tradition , which from hand to hand , and age to age bringing us up to the Times and Persons of the Apostles and our Saviour himselfe , commeth to be confirmed by all those Miracles , and other Arguments whereby they convinced their Doctrine to be true . Wherefore the Ancient Fathers avouch that wee must receiue the sacred Scripture upon the Tradition of this Church . The Tradition then of this Church you say must teach us what is Scripture : and we are willing to belieue it . And now if you make it good unto us , that the same Tradition down from the Apostles , hath delivered from age to age , and from hand to hand , any interpretation of any Scripture , we are ready to embrace that also . But now , if you will argue thus : The Church in one sense , tells us what is Scripture , & we belieue , therefore if the Church taken in another sense , tell us , this or that is the meaning of the Scripture , we are to belieue that also ; this is too transparent Sophistrie , to take any but those that are willing to be taken . 89 If there be any Traditiue Interpretation of Scripture , produce it , and proue it to be so ; and we embrace it . But the Tradition of all ages is one thing ; and the authority of the present Church , much more of the Roman Church , which is but a Part , and a corrupted Part of the Catholique Church , is another . And therefore though we are ready to receiue both Scripture and the sense of Scripture upon the authority of Originall Tradition , yet we receiue neither the one , nor the other , upon the Authority of your Church . 90 First for the Scripture , how can wee receiue them upon the Authority of your Church : who hold now those Books to be Canonicall , which formerly you rejected from the Canon ? I instance , in the Book of Macchabees , and the Epistle to the Hebrews . The first of these you held not to be Canonicall in S. Gregories time , or else hee was no member of your Church , for it is apparent a He held otherwise . The second you rejected from the Canon in S. Hieroms time , as it is evident out of b many places of his Works . 91 If you say ( which is all you can say ) that Hierom spake this of the particular Roman Church , not of the Roman Catholique Church ; I answer , there was none such in his time , None that was called so . Secondly , what he spake of the Roman Church , must be true of all other Churches , if your Doctrine of the necessity of the Conformity of all other Churches to that Church were then Catholique Doctrine . Now then choose whether you will , either that the particular Roman Church , was not then beleived to be the Mistresse of all other Churches ( notwithstanding , Ad hanc Ecclesiam necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam , hoc est , omnes qui sunt undique fideles ; which Card. Perron , and his Translatresse so often translates false : ) Or if you say shee was , you will runne into a greater inconvenience , and be forced to say , that all the Churches of that time , rejected from the Canon the Epistle to the Hebrews , together with the Roman Church . And consequently that the Catholique Church may erre in rejecting from the Canon Scriptures truly Canonicall . 92 Secondly , How can we receive the Scripture upon the authority of the Roman Church , which hath delivered at severall times Scriptures in many places , different and repugnant , for Authenticall & Canonicall ? Which is most evident out of the place of Malachie , which is so quoted for the Sacrifice of the Masse , that either all the ancient Fathers had false Bibles , or yours is false . Most evident likewise from the comparing of the story of Iacob in Genesis , with that which is cited out of it , in the Epistle to the Hebrewes , according to the vulgar Edition . But aboue all , to any one , who shall compare the Bibles of Sixtus and Clement , so evident , that the wit of man cannot disguise it . 93 And thus you see what reason we haue to belieue your Antecedent , That your Church it is which must declare , what Books bee true Scripture . Now for the consequence , that certainty is as liable to exception as the Antecedent . For if it were true , that God had promised to assist you , for the delivering of true Scripture , would this oblige Him , or would it follow from hence that He had oblig'd himselfe , to teach you , not only sufficiently , but effectually and irresistibly the true sense of Scripture ? God is not defectiue in things necessary : neither will he leave himselfe without witnesse , nor the World without meanes of knowing his will and doing it . And therefore it was necessary that by his Providence he should preserve the Scripture from any undiscernable corruptiō , in those things which he would haue known : otherwise it is apparent , it had not been his will , that these things should be known , the only meanes of continuing the knowledge of them being perished . But now neither is God lavish in superfluities , and therefore having given us meanes sufficient for our direction , and power sufficient to make use of these meanes , he will not constraine or necessitate us to make use of these meanes . For that were to crosse the end of our Creation , which was to be glorified by our free obedience : whereas necessity and freedome cannot stand together . That were to reverse the Law which he hath prescribed to himselfe in his dealing with men , and that is , to set life and death before him , and to leaue him in the hands of his own Counsell . God gaue the Wisemen a Starre to lead them to Christ , but he did not necessitate them to follow the guidance of this starre : that was left to their liberty . God gaue the Children of Israel a Fire to lead them by night , and a Pillar of Cloud by day , but he constrained no man to follow them : that was left to their liberty . So he giues the Church , the Scripture : which in those things which are to be believed or done , are plain and easie to be follow'd , like the Wise men's Starre . Now that which he desires of us on our part , is the Obedience of Faith , and loue of the Truth , and desire to finde the true sense of it , and industry in searching it , and humility in following , and Constancy in professing it : all which if he should work in us by an absolute irresistible necessity , he could no more require of us , as our duty , then he can of the Sunne to shine , of the Sea to ebb & flowe , and of all other Creatures to doe those things which by meere necessity they must doe , and cannot choose . Besides , what an impudence is it to pretend that your Church is infallibly directed concerning the true meaning of the Scripture , whereas there are thousands of places of Scripture , which you doe not pretend certainly to understand , and about the Interpretation whereof , your own Doctors differ among themselues ? If your Church be infallibly directed concerning the true meaning of Scripture , why doe not your Doctors follow her infallible direction ? And if they doe , how comes such difference among them in their Interpretations ? 94 Again , why does your Church thus put her candle under a Bushell , and keep her Talent of interpreting Scripture infallibly , thus long wrapt up in napkins ? Why sets she not forth Infallible Commentaries or Expositions upon all the Bible ? Is it because this would not be profitable for Christians , that Scripture should be Interpreted ? It is blasphemous to say so . The Scripture it selfe tells us , All Scripture is profitable . And the Scripture is not so much the Words as the Sense . And if it be not profitable , why does shee imploy particular Doctors to interpret Scriptures fallibly ? unlesse we must think that fallible Interpretations of Scripture are profitable , and infallible interpretations would not be so ? 95 If you say the Holy Ghost , which assists the Church in interpreting , will move the Church to interpret when he shall think fit , and that the Church will doe it when the Holy Ghost shall move her to doe it : I demand whether the Holy Ghost's moving of the Church to such works as these be resistible by the Church , or irresistible . If resistible , then the Holy Ghost may move , and the Church may not be moved . As certainly the Holy Ghost doth alwaies move to an action , when he shewes us plainly that it would be for the good of men , and honour of God. As he that hath any sense will acknowledge that an infallible exposition of Scripture could not but be , and there is no conceivable reason , why such a work should be put off a day , but only because you are conscious to your selves , you cannot doe it , and therefore make excuses . But if the moving of the Holy Ghost be irresistible , and you are not yet so mov'd to goe about this work ; then I confesse you are excused . But then I would know , whether those Popes which so long deferred the calling of a Councell for the Reformation of your Church , at length pretended to be effected by the Councell of Trent , whether they may excuse themselves , for that they were not moved by the Holy Ghost to doe it ? I would know likewise , as this motion is irresistible when it comes , so whether it be so simply necessary to the moving of your Church to any such publique Action , that it cannot possibly move without it ? That is , whether the Pope now could not , if he would , seat himselfe in Cathedra , and fall to writing expositions upon the Bible for the directions of Christians to the true sense of it ? If you say he cannot , you will make your selfe ridiculous . If he can , then I would know , whether he should be infallibly directed in these expositions , or no ? If he should , then what need he to stay for irresistible motion ? Why does he not goe about this noble worke presently ? If he should not , How shall we know that the calling of the Councell of Trent was not upon his own voluntary motion , or upon humane importunity and suggestion , and not upon the motion of the Holy Ghost ? And consequently how shall we know whether he were assistant to it or no , seeing he assists none but what he himselfe moves to ? And whether he did move the Pope to call this Councell , is a secret thing , which we cannot possibly know , nor perhaps the Pope himselfe . 96 If you say , your meaning is only , That the Church shall be infallibly guarded from giving any false sense of any Scripture , and not infallibly assisted positively to give the true sense of all Scripture : I put to you your own Question , why should we believe the Holy Ghost will stay there ? Or , why may we not as well think he will stay at the first thing , that is , in teaching the Church what Bookes be true Scripture ? For if the Holy Ghosts assistance be promised to all things profitable , then will he be with them infallibly , not only to guard them from all errors , but to guide them to all profitable truths , such as the true senses of all Scripture would be . Neither could he stay there , but defend them irresistibly from all Vices ; Nor there neither , but infuse into them irresistibly all Vertues : for all these things would be much for the benefit of Christians . If you say , he cannot doe this without taking away their free will in living ; I say neither can he necessitate men to believe aright , without taking away their freewill in believing and in professing their belief . 97 To the place of S. Austine , I answere , That not the authority of the present Church , much lesse of a Part of it ( as the Roman Church is ) was that which alone mov'd Saint Austine to believe the Gospell , but the perpetuall Tradition of the Church of all Ages . Which you your selfe have taught us to be the only Principle by which the Scripture is prov'd , and which it selfe needs no proof ; and to which you have referred this very saying of S. Austine , Ego vero Evangelio non crederem nisi &c. p. 55. And in the next place which you cite out of his book De Vtil . Cred. c. 14. he shewes , that his motives to believe , were , Fame , Celebrity , Consent , Antiquity . And seeing this Tradition , this Consent , this Antiquity did as fully and powerfully move him not to believe Manichaeus , as to believe the Gospell , ( the Christian Tradition being as full against Manichaeus as it was for the Gospell ) therefore he did well to conclude upon these grounds , that he had as much reason to disbelieve Manichaeus , as to believe the Gospell . Now if you can truly say , that the same Fame , Celebrity , Consent , Antiquity , that the same Vniversall and Originall Tradition , lyes against Luther and Calvin , as did against Manichaeus , you may doe well to apply the Argument against them ; otherwise it will be to little purpose to substitute their names in steade of Manichaeus , unlesse you can shew the thing agrees to them as well as him . 98 If you say , that S. Austin speakes here of the authority of the Present Church , abstracting from consent with the Ancient , and therefore you , seeing you have the present Church on your side against Luther and Calvin , as S. Austin against Manichaeus , may urge the same words against them which S. Austin did against him ; 99 I answer , First that it is a vaine presumption of yours that the Catholique Church is of your side . Secondly , that if S. Austine speake here of that present Church , which moved him to believe the Gospel , without consideration of the Antiquity of it , & its both Personall and Doctrinall succession from the Apostles ; His argument will be like a Buskin that will serve anylegge . It will serve to keepe an Arrian , or a Grecian from being a Roman Catholique , as well as a Catholique from being an Arrian , or a Grecian ? In as much as the Arrians and Grecians , did pretend to the title of Catholiques , and the Church , as much as the Papists now doe . If then you should haue come to an ancient Goth or Vandall , whom the Arrians converted to Christianity , and should haue mov'd him to your Religion ; might he not say the very same words to you as S. Austin to the Manichaeans ? I would not beleive the Gospell , unlesse the authority of the Church did move me . Them therefore whom I obeyed , saying beleive the Gospell , why should I not obey saying to me , doe not beleive the Homoousians ? Choose what thou pleasest : if thou shalt say beleive the Arrians ; they warne me not to give any credit to you . If therefore I beleive them , I cannot beleive thee . If thou say doe not beleive the Arriās , thou shalt not doe well to force me to the faith of the Homoousians , because by the preaching of the Arrians I beleived the Gospell it selfe . If you say , you did well to beleive them , commending the Gospell , but you did not well to beleive them discommending the Homoousians : Doest thou think me so very foolish , that without any reason at all , I should beleive what thou wilt , and not beleive what thou wilt not ? It were easie to put these words into the mouth of a Grecian , Abyssine , Georgian , or any other of any Religion . And I pray bethinke your selves , what you would say to such a one in such a case , and imagine that we say the very same to you . 100 Whereas you aske , Whether Protestants doe not perfectly resemble those men to whom S. Austine spake , when they will have men to believe the Roman Church delivering Scripture , but not to believe her condemning Luther ? I demand againe , whether you be well in your wits to say , that Protestants would have men believe the Roman Church delivering Scripture , whereas they accuse her to deliver many bookes for Scripture which are not so ? and doe not bid men to receive any book which she delivers , for that reason , because she delivers it ? And if you meant only , Protestants will have men to believe some bookes to be Scripture which the Roman Church delivers for such , may not we then aske , as you doe , Doe not Papists perfectly resemble these men , which will have men believe the Church of England delivering Scripture , but not to believe her condemning the Church of Rome ? 101 And whereas you say S. Austine may seeme to have spoken Prophetically against Protestants , when he said , Why should I not most diligently enquire , what Christ commanded , of them before all others , by whose Authority I was moved to believe , that Christ Commanded any good thing ? I answer . Vntill you can shew that Protestants believe that Christ commanded any good thing , that is , That they believe the truth of Christian Religion upon the Authority of the Church of Rome , this place must be wholly impertinent to your purpose ; which is to make Protestants believe your Church to be the infallible expounder of Scriptures and judge of Controversies : nay rather is it not directly against your purpose ? For why may not a member of the Church of England , who received his baptisme , education and Faith from the Ministery of this Church , say just so to you as S. Austine here to the Manichees ? Why should I not most diligently inquire , what Christ commanded , of them ( the Church of England ) before all others , by whose Authority I was mov'd to believe , that Christ commanded any good thing , Can you , F. or K. or whosoever you are , better declare to me what he said , whom I would not have thought to have been or to be , if the belief thereof had been recommended by you to me ? This therefore ( that Christ Iesus did those miracles , and taught that Doctrine which is contained evidently in the undoubted Bookes of the New Testament ) I believed by Fame , strengthned with Celebrity & Consent , ( even of those which in other things are at infinite variance one with another , ) and lastly by Antiquity ( which gives an universall and a constant attestation to them ) . But every one may see that you , so few ( in comparison of all those upon whose consent we ground our belief of Scripture , ) so turbulent , ( that you damne all to the fire , and to Hell , that any way differ from you ; that you professe it is lawfull for you , to use violence and power whensoever you can have it , for the planting of your own doctrine , and the extirpation of the contrary ; ) lastly so new in many of your Doctrines , ( as in the lawfulnesse , and expedience of debarring the Laity the Sacramentall Cup ; the lawfulnesse and expedience of your Latine Service , Transubstantiation , Indulgences , Purgatory , the Popes infallibility , his Authority over Kings &c. ) so new I say , in comparison of the undoubted bookes of Scripture , which evidently containeth , or rather is our Religion , and the sole , and adequate object of our faith : I say every one may see that you , so few , so turbulent , so new , can produce nothing deserving Authority ( with wise and considerate men ) . What madnesse is this ? Believe them the consent of Christians which are now , and have been ever since Christ in the World , that we ought to believe Christ ; but learn of us what Christ said , which contradict and damne all other parts of Christendome . Why I beseech you ? Surely if they were not at all , and could not teach me any thing , I would more easily perswade my selfe , that I were not to believe in Christ , then that I should learn any thing concerning him , from any other , then them by whom I believed him : at least , then that I should learn what his Religion was from you , who have wronged so exceedingly his Miracles and his Doctrine , by forging so evidently so many false Miracles for the Confirmation of your new Doctrine ; which might give us just occasion , had we no other assurance of them but your Authority , to suspect the true ones . Who with forging so many false Stories , and false Authors , have taken a faire way to make the faith of all Stories questionable ; if we had no other ground for our belief of them but your Authority : who have brought in Doctrines plainly and directly contrary to that which you confesse to be the word of Christ , and which , for the most , part make either for the honour or profit of the Teachers of them : which ( if there were no difference between the Christian and the Roman Church ) would be very apt to make suspicious men believe that Christian Religion was a humane invention , taught by some cunning Impostors , only to make themselves rich and powerfull ; who make a profession of corrupting all sorts of Authors : a ready course to make it justly questionable whether any remain uncorrupted . For if you take this Authority upon you , upon the sixe Ages last past ; how shall we know , that the Church of that time , did not usurpe the same authority upon the Authors of the sixe last Ages before them , and so upwards untill we come to Christ himselfe ? Whose question'd Doctrines , none of them came from the fountain of Apostolike tradition , but have insinuated themselves into the Streames , by little and little , some in one age , and some in another , some more Anciently , some more lately , and some yet are Embrio's , yet hatching , and in the shell ; as the Popes infallibility , the Blessed Virgins immaculate conception , the Popes power over the Temporalties of Kings , the Doctrine of Predetermination , &c. all which yet are , or in time may be impos'd upon Christians under the Title of Originall and Apostolike Tradition , and that with that necessity , that they are told , they were as good believe nothing at all , as not believe these things to have come from the Apostles , which they know to have been brought in but yesterday : which whether it be not a ready and likely way to make men conclude thus with themselves — I am told , that I were as good believe nothing at all , as believe some points which the Church teaches me , and not others : & somethings which she teaches to be Ancient and Certain , I plainly see to be New & False , therefore I will believe nothing at all . Whether I say the foresaid grounds be not a ready and likely way to make men conclude thus , and whether this conclusion be not too often made in Italy , & Spain , and France , and in England too , I leave it to the judgement of those that have wisdome and experience . Seeing therefore the Roman Church is so farre from being a sufficient Foundation for our belief in Christ , that it is in sundry regards a dangerous temptation against it ; why should I not much rather conclude , Seeing we receive not the knowledge of Christ and Scriptures from the Church of Rome , neither from her must we take his Doctrine , or the Interpretation of Scripture ? 102 Ad. § . 19. In this number , this Argument is contained . The Iudge of Controversies ought to be intelligible to learned and unlearned ; The Scripture is not so , and the Church is so ; Therefore the Church is the Iudge , and not the Scripture . 103 To this I answere : As to be understandible is a condition requisite to a Iudge , so is not that alone sufficient to make a Iudge ; otherwise you might make your selfe Iudge of Controversies , by arguing ; The Scripture is not intelligible by all , but I am , therefore I am Iudge of Controversies . If you say your intent was to conclude against the Scripture , and not for the Church : I demand why then , but to delude the simple with sophistry , did you say in the close of this § . Such is the Church , and the Scripture is not such ? but that you would leave it to them to inferre in the end , ( which indeed was more then you undertook in the beginning ) Therefore the Church is Iudge and the Scripture not . I say Secondly ; that you still runne upon a false supposition : that God hath appointed some Iudge of all Controversies that may happen among Christians , about the sense of obscure Texts of Scripture : whereas he has left every one to his liberty herein , in those words of S. Paul , Quisque abundet in sensu suo &c. I say thirdly . Whereas some Protestants make the Scripture Iudge of Controversies , that they have the authority of Fathers of warrant their manner of speaking : as of * Optatus . 104 But speaking truly and properly the Scripture is not a Iudge nor cannot be , but only , a sufficient Rule , for those to judge by , that believe it to be the word of God ( as the Church of England and the Church of Rome both doe , ) what they are to believe , and what they are not to believe . I say sufficiently perfect , and sufficiently intelligible in things necessary , to all that have understanding , whether they be learned or unlearned . And my reason hereof is convincing and Demonstrative ; because nothing is necessary to be believed , but what is plainly revealed . For to say , that when a place of Scripture , by reason of ambiguous termes , lies indifferent between divers senses , whereof one is true , and the other is false , that God obliges men under pain of damnation , not to mistake through error and humane frailty , is to make God a Tyrant , and to say that he requires us certainly to attain that end , for the attaining whereof we have no certain meanes ; which is to say , that , like Pharaoh , he gives no straw , and requires brick ; that he reapes where he sowes not ; that he gathers where he strewes not , that he will not be pleas'd with our utmost endeavours to please him , without full and exact and never failing performance ; that his will is we should doe what he knowes we cannot doe ; that he will not accept of us according to that which we have , but requireth of us what we have not . Which whether it can consist with his goodnes , with his wisdome , & with his word , I leave it to honest men to judge . If I should send a servant to Paris , or Rome , or lerusalem , and he using his utmost diligence not to mistake his way , yet notwithstanding , meeting often with such places where the road is divided into severall waies , whereof every one is as likely to be true , and as likely to be false as any other , should at length mistake and goe out of the way ; would not any man say that I were an impotent , foolish and unjust master , if I should be offended with him for doing so ? And shall we not tremble to impute that to God , which we would take in foule scorne , if it were imputed to our selves ? Certainly , I for my part fear I should not loue God if I should think so strangely of him . 105 Againe . When you say , that unlearned , and ignor an t men cannot understand Scripture , I would desire you to come out of the clouds , and tell us what you meane : Whether , that they cannot understand all Scripture , or that they cannot understand any Scripture , or that they cannot understand so much as is sufficient for their direction to Heaven . If the first ; I believe the Learned are in the same case . If the Second ; every mans experience will confute you : for who is there that is not capable of a sufficient understanding of the Story , the Precepts , the Promises , and the Threats of the Gospell ? If the third ; that they may understand something , but not enough for their Salvations ; I aske you , first . Why then doth S. Paul say to Timothy , The Scriptures are able to make him wise unto Salvation ? Why does Saint Austine say , Eaquae manifest● posita sunt in sacris Scripturis , omnia continent quae pertinent and Fidem Moresque vivendi ? Why does every one of the four Evangelists intitle their book The Gospell , if any necessary and essentiall part of the Gospell were left out of it ? Can we imagine , that either they omitted something necessary , out of ignorance not knowing it to be necessary ? Or knowing it to be so , malitiously concealed it ? Or out of negligence ' did the work they had undertaken by halfes ? If none of these things can without Blasphemy be imputed to them , considering they were assisted by the Holy Ghost in this work , then certainly it most evidently followes , that every one of them writ the whole Gospell of Christ ; I mean all the essentiall and necessary parts of it . So that if we had no other book of Scripture , but one of them alone , we should not want any thing necessary to Salvation . And what one of them has more then another , it is only profitable , and not necessary . Necessary indeed to be believed , because revealed ; but not therefore revealed , because necessary to be believed . 106 Neither did they write only for the learned , but for all men . This being one especial meanes of the preaching of the Gospel , which was commanded to be preached , not only to learned men but to all men . And therefore , unlesse we will imagine the Holy Ghost and them to have been wilfully wanting to their own desire and purpose , we must conceive , that they intended to speak plain , even to the capacity of the simplest ; at least touching all things necessary to be published by them , and believed by us . 107 And whereas you pretend it is so easie , and obvious both for the learned and the ignorant , both to know which is the Church , and what are the Decrees of the Church , and what is the sense of those Decrees : I say , this is a vaine pretense . 108 For first ; How shall an unlearned man whom you haue supposed now ignorant of Scripture , how shall he know which of all the Societies of Christians is indeed the Church ? You will say perhaps , he must examine them by the notes of the Church , which are perpetuall Visibilitie , Succession , Conformitie with the ancient Church . &c. But how shall he know , first , that these are the notes of the Church , unlesse by Scripture , which you say he understands not ? You may say perhaps , he may be told so . But seeing men may deceive , and be deceived , and their words are no demonstrations , how shall he be assured that what they say is true ? So that at the first he meets with an impregnable difficulty , and cannot know the Church but by such notes , which whether they be the notes of the Church he cannot possibly know . But let us suppose this Isthmus digged through , and that he is assured these are the notes of the true Church : How can he possible be a competent Iudge , which society of Christians hath title to these notes , and which hath not ? Seeing this triall of necessity requires a great sufficiency of knowledge of the monuments of Christian Antiquity , which no unlearned can haue , because he that hath it cannot be unlearned . As for example , how shall he possibly be able to know whether the Church of Rome hath had a perpetuall Succession of Visible Professors , which held alwayes the same Doctrine which they now hold , without holding any thing to the contrary ; unlesse he hath first examined , what was the Doctrine of the Church in the first age , what in the second , and so forth ? And whether this be not a more difficult work , then to stay at the first Age , and to examine the Church by the conformity of her Doctrine , with the Doctrine of the first age , every man of ordinary understanding may judge . 108 Let us imagine him advanc'd a step farther , and to know which is the Church : how shall he know what that Church hath decreed , seeing the Church hath not been so carefull in keeping of her decrees , but that many are lost , and many corrupted ? Besides , when even the Learned among you are not agreed concerning divers things , whether they be De Fide or not ; how shall the unlearned doe ? Then for the sense of the Decrees , how can he be more capable of the understanding of them , then of plain Texts of Scripture , which you will not suffer him to understand ? Especially , seeing the Decrees of divers Popes and Councells are conceived so obscurely , that the Learned cannot agree about the sense of them . And then they are written all in such languages which the ignorant understand not , and therefore must of necessity rely herein upon the uncertain and fallible authority of some particular men , who informe them that there is such a Decree . And if the Decrees were translated into Vulgar languages , why the Translators should not be as fallible as you say the Translators of Scripture are , who can possibly imagine ? 109 Lastly , how shall an unlearned man , or indeed any man , be assured of the certainty of that Decree , the certainty whereof depends upon suppositions which are impossible to be known whether they be true or no ? For it is not the Decree of a Councell , unlesse it be confirmed by a true Pope . Now the Pope cannot be a true Pope if he came in by Simony : which whether he did or no , who can answer mee ? He cannot be true Pope unlesse he were baptized , and baptized he was not , unlesse the Minister had due Intention . So likewise he cannot be a true Pope , unlesse he were rightly ordained Priest , and that again depends upon the Ordainers secret Intention , and also upon his having the Episcopall Character . All which things , as I have formerly proved , depend upon so many uncertain suppositions , that no humane judgement can possibly be resolved in them . I conclude therefore , that not the learnedst man amongst you all , no not the Pope himselfe , can , according to the grounds you goe upon , have any certainty , that any Decree of any Councell is good and valid , and consequently , not any assurance that it is indeed the Decree of a Councell . 110 Ad § . 20. If by a private spirit , you mean , a particular perswasion that a Doctrine is true , which some men pretend , but cannot prove to come from the spirit of God : I say to referre Controversies to Scripture , is not to referre them to this kind of private Spirit . For is there not a manifest difference between saying , the spirit of God tels me that this is the meaning of such a Text ( which no man can possibly know to be true , it being a secret thing ) & between saying , these & these Reasons I have to shew , that this or that is true doctrine , or that this or that is the meaning of such a Scripture ? Reason being a Publique and certain thing and exposed to all mens tryall and examination . But now if by privat spirit you understand every mans particular Reason , then your first and second inconvenience will presently be reduced to one , and shortly to none at all . 111 Ad § . 20. And does not also giving the office of Iudicature to the Church , come to conferre it upon every particular man ? For before any man believes the Church infallible , must he not have reason to induce him to believe it to be so ? and must he not judge of those reasons , whether they be indeed good and firme , or captious and sophisticall ? Or would you have all men believe all your Doctrine upon the Churches infalli●●●●●y , and the Churches infallibility they know not why ? 112 Secondly , supposing they are to be guided by the Church , they must use their own particular reason to find out which is the Church . And to that purpose you your selves give a great many notes , which you pretend first to be Certain notes of the Church , and then to be peculiar to your Church , and agreeable to none else ; but you doe not so much as pretend , that either of those pretenses is evident of it selfe , and therefore you goe about to prove them both by reasons ; and those reasons I hope every particular man is to judge of , whether they doe indeed conclude and convince that which they are alleadged for : that is , that these markes are indeed certain notes of the Church , and then that your Church hath them , and no other . 113 One of these notes , indeed the only note of a true and uncorrupted Church , is conformity with Antiquity ; I mean the most ancient Church of all , that is the Primitive and Apostolique . Now how is it possible any man should examine your Church by this note , but he must by his own particular judgement , find out what was the doctrine of the Primitive Church , and what is the Doctrine of the present Church , and be able to answer all these Arguments which are brought to prove repugnance between them ? otherwise he shall but pretend to make use of this note for the finding the true Church , but indeed make no use of it , but receive the Church at a venture , as the most of you doe ; not one in a hundred being able to give any tolerable reason for it . So that in stead of reducing men to particular reason , you reduce them to none at all , but to chance and passion , and prejudice and such other waies , which if they lead one to the truth , they lead hundreds , nay thousands to falshood . But it is a pretty thing to consider , how these men can blow hot and cold out of the same mouth to serve severall purposes . Is there hope of gaining a Proselite ? Then they will tell you , God hath given every man Reason to follow ; and if the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the Ditch . That it is no good reason for a mans religion , that he was borne and brought up in it : For then a Turke should have as much reason to be a Turke ; as a Christian to be a Christian. That every man hath a judgement of Discretion ; which if they will make use of they shall easily finde : that the true Church hath alwaies such and such markes , and that their Church has them , and no other but theirs . But then if any of theirs be perswaded to a syncere and sufficient tryall of their Church ▪ even by their own notes of it , and to try whether they be indeed so conformable to Antiquity as they pretend , then their note is changed : you must not use your own reason nor your judgement , but referre all to the Church , and believe her to be conformable to Antiquity , though they have no reason for it , nay though they have evident reason to the contrary . For my part , I am certain that God hath given us our Reason to discern between Truth and Falshood , and he that makes not this use of it , but beleeves things he knowes not why , I say it is by chance that he believes the Truth , and not by choice : and that I cannot but feare , that God will not accept of this Sacrifice of fooles . 114 But you that would not have men follow their reason , what would you have them to follow ? their Passion ? Or pluck out their eyes and goe blindfold ? No , you say you would have them follow Authority . On gods name let them ; we also would have them follow Authority ; for it is upon the Authority of Vniversall Tradition , that we would have them believe Scripture . But then as for the Authority which you would have them follow , you will let them see reason why they should follow it . And is not this to goe a little about ? to leave reason for a short turne , and then to come to it again , and to doe that which you condemne in others ? It being indeed a plain impossibility for any man to submit his reason but to reason : for he that does it to Authority , must of necessity think himselfe to have greater reason to believe that Authority . Therefore the confession cited by Brerely , you need not think to have been extorted from Luther and the rest . It came very freely from them , and what they say you practise as much as they . 115 And whereas you say that a Protestant admits of Fathers , Councells , Church , as farre as they agree with Scripture , which upon the matter is himselfe : I say you admit neither of them , nor the Scripture it selfe , but only so farre as it agrees with your Church : and your Church you admit because you think you have reason to doe so : so that by you as well as by Protestants all is finally resolved into your own reason . 116 Nor doe Heretiques only but Romish Catholiques also set up as many judges , as there are men and women in the Christian world . For doe not your men and women judge your Religion to be true , before they believe it , as well as the men and women of other Religions ? Oh but you say , They receive it not because they think it agreeable to Scripture , but because the Church tells them so . But then I hope they believe the Church because their own reason tells them they are to doe so . So that the difference between a Papist and a Protestant is this , not that the one judges and the other does not judge , but that the one judges his guide to be infallible , the other his way to be manifest . This same pernitious Doctrine is taught by Brentius , Zanchius , Cartwright , and others . It is so in very deed : But it is taught also by some others , whom you little think of . It is taught by S. Paul , where he saies , Try all things , hold fast that which is good . It is taught by S. Iohn , in these words , Belieue not every Spirit , but try the Spirits whether they be of God or no. It is taught by S. Peter , in these , Bee yee ready to render a reason of the hope that is in you . Lastly , this very pernitious Doctrine is taught by our Saviour , in these words , If the blinde lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch . And why of your selues iudge you not what is right ? All which speeches , if they doe not advise men to make use of their Reason for the choice of their Religion , I must confesse my selfe to understand nothing . Lastly , not to bee infinite , it is taught by M. Knot himselfe , not in one page only , or chapter of his Book , but all his Book over , the very writing and publishing whereof , supposeth this for certaine , that the readers are to be Iudges , whether his Reasons which he brings , be strong and convincing ; of which sort wee haue hetherto met with none : or else captious , or impertinences , as indifferent men shall ( as I suppose ) haue cause to judge them . 117 But you demand , What good Statesmen would they be , who should ideate , or fancy such a Commonwealth , as these men haue framed to themselues a Church ? Truly if this be all the fault they haue , that they say , Every man is to use his own iudgement in the choice of his Religion , and not to belieue this or that sense of Scripture , upon the bare Authority of any Learned man or men , when he conceiues he has reasons to the contrary , which are of more weight then their Authority : I know no reason but , notwithstanding all this , they might be as good Statesmen as any of the Society . But what has this to doe with Common-wealths , where men are bound only to externall obedience , unto the Laws and judgements of Courts , but not to an internall approbation of them , no nor to conceale their Iudgment of them , if they disapprove them ? As if I conceiued I had reason to mislike the law of punishing simple theft with death , as St Thomas Moore did , I might professe lawfully my judgement , and represent my Reasons to the King or Common-wealth in a Parliament , as S ● Thomas Moore did , without committing any fault , or fearing any punishment . 118 To the place of S. Austin , wherewith this Paragraph is concluded , I shall need giue no other Reply , but onely to desire you to speak like an honest man , and to say , whether it be all one for a man , to allow and disallow in every Scripture what he pleases , which is , either to dash out of Scripture such Texts or such Chapters , because they crosse his opinion● or to say ( which is worse , ) Though they be Scripture they are not true ? Whether I say for a man thus to allow and disallow in Scripture what he pleases , be all one , and no greater fault , then to allow that sense of Scripture which he conceiues to be true and genuine , and deduc'd out of the words , and to disallow the contrary ? For Gods sake , Sr , tell me plainly ; In those Texts of Scripture , which you alleage for the infallibility of your Church , doe not you allow what sens● you think true , and disallow the contrary ? And doe you not this by the direction of your private reason ? If you doe , why doe you condemne it in others ? If you doe not , I pray you tell me what direction you follow ? or whether you follow none at all ? If none at all , this is like drawing Lots , or throwing the Dice for the choice of a Religion . If any other : I beseech you tell me what it is . Perhaps you will say , the Churches Authority ; and that will be to dance finely in a round , thus , To belieue the Churches Infallible Authority , because the Scriptures avouch it ; & to belieue that Scriptures say and mean so , because they are so expounded by the Church . Is not this for a Father to beget his Sonne , and the Sonne to beget his Father ? For a foundation to support the house , and the house to support the foundation ? Would not Campian haue cryed out at it , Ecce quos gyros , quos Maeandros ? And to what end was this going about , when you might as well at first haue concluded the Church infallible because she saies so ; as thus to put in Scripture for a meere stale , and to say , the Church is infallible because the Scripture saies so , and the Scripture meanes so because the Church saies so , which is infallible ? Is it not most evident therefore to every intelligent man , that you are enforced of necessity to doe that your selfe , which so tragically you declaime against in others ? The Church , you say , is infallible ; I am very doubtfull of it : How shall I know it ? The Scripture you say affirmes it , as in the 59. of Esay , My spirit that is in thee , &c. Well I confesse I finde there these words : but I am still doubtfull , whether they be spoken of the Church of Christ : & if they be , whether they mean as you pretend . You say , the Church saies so , which is infallible . Yea but that is the Question , and therefore not to be begg'd but proved . Neither is it so evident as to need no proofe : otherwise why brought you this Text to proue it ? Nor is it of such a strange quality , aboue all other Propositions , as to bee able to proue it selfe . What then remaines but that you say , Reasons drawn out of the Circumstances of the Text , will evince that this is the sense of it . Perhaps they will. But Reasons cannot convince mee , unlesse I judge of them by my Reason ; and for every man or woman to relye on that , in the choice of their Religion , and in the interpreting of Scripture , you say is a horrible absurditie ; and therefore must neither make use of your own in this matter , nor desire mee to make use of it . 119 But Vniversall Tradition ( you say , and so doe I too , ) is of it selfe credible : and that has in all ages taught the Churches infallibility with full consent . If it haue , I am ready to belieue it . But that it has I hope you would not haue me take upon your word : for that were to build my selfe upon the Church , and the Church upon You. Let then the Tradition appeare ; for a secret Tradition is somewhat like a silent Thunder . You will perhaps produce , for the confirmation of it , some sayings of some Fathers , who in every Age taught this Doctrine ; ( as Gualterius in his Chronologie undertakes to doe , but with so ill successe , that I heard an able Man of your Religion professe , that in the first three Centuries , there was not one Authority pertinent : ) but how will you warrant that none of them teach the contrary ? Again , how shall I be assured that the places haue indeed this sense in them ? Seeing there is not one Father for 500. yeares after Christ , that does say in plain termes , The Church of Rome is infallible . What , shall wee belieue your Church that this is their meaning ? But this will be again to goe into the Circle , which made us giddy before ; To proue the Church Infallible because Tradition saies so , Tradition to say so , because the Fathers say so , The Fathers to say so , because the Church saies so , which is infallible . Yea , but reason will shew this to be the meaning of them . Yes , if we may use our Reason , and rely upon it . Otherwise , as light shewes nothing to the blinde , or to him that uses not his eyes ; so reason cannot proue any thing to him that either has not , or uses not his reason to judge of them . 120 Thus you haue excluded your selfe from all proofe of your Churches infallibility from Scripture or Tradition . And if you flye lastly to Reason it selfe for succour , may not it justly say to you , as Iephte said to his Brethren , Yee haue cast me out and banished me , and doe you now come to me for succour ? But if there be no certainty in Reason , how shall I be assured of the certainty of those which you alleage for this purpose ? Either I may judge of them , or not : if not , why doe you propose them ? If I may , why doe you say I may not , and make it such a monstrous absurdity , That men in the choyce of their Religion should make use of their Reason ? which yet , without all question , none but unreasonable men can deny , to haue been the chiefest ende why Reason was given them . 122 Ad § 22. An Heretique he is ( saith D. Potter ) who opposeth any truth , which to be a divine revelation he is convinced in conscience by any meanes whatsoever : Be it by a Preacher or Lay-man , be it by reading Scripture , or hearing them read . And from hence you infer , that he makes all these safe propounders of Faith. A most strange and illogicall deduction ! For may not a private man by evident reason convince another man , that such or such a Doctrine is divine revelation , and yet though he be a true propounder in this point , yet propound another thing falsely , and without proofe , and consequently not be a safe propounder in every point ? Your Preachers in their Sermons , do they not propose to men divine Revelations , and doe they not sometimes convince men in conscience , by evident proofe from Scripture , that the things they speak are Divine revelations ? And whosoever , being thus convinc'd , should oppose this Divine revelation , should hee not be an Heretique , according to your own grounds , for calling Gods own Truth into question ? And would you think your selfe well dealt with , if I should collect from hence , that you make every Preacher a safe , that is , an infallible Propounder of Faith ? Be the meanes of Proposall what it will , sufficient or insufficient , worthy of credit , or not worthy , though it were , if it were possible , the barking of a Dog , or the chirping of a Bird , or were it the discourse of the Divell himselfe , yet if I be , I will not say convinc'd , but persuaded , though falsly , that it is a Divine revelation , and shall deny to belieue it , I shall be a formall , though not a materiall Heretique . For he that believes , though falsly any thing to be Divine revelation , & yet will not believe it to be true , must of necessity believe God to be false , which according to your own Doctrine , is the formality of an Heretique . 123 And how it can be any way advantagious to Civill government , that men without warrant from God should usurpe a tyranny over other mens consciences , and prescribe unto them without reason , and sometimes against reason , what they shall believe , you must shew us plainer if you desire we should believe . For to say , Verily I doe not see but that it must be so , is no good demonstration . For whereas you say , that a man may be a passionate & seditious creature , from whence you would have us inferre , that he may make use of his interpretation to satisfie his passion , and raise sedition : There were some colour in this consequence , if we ( as you doe ) made private men infallible interpreters for others ; for then indeed they might lead Disciples after them , and use them as instruments for their vile purposes : But when we say they can only interpret for themselves , what harme they can doe by their passionate or seditious interpretations , but only endanger both their temporall and eternall happinesse , I cannot imagine . For though we deny the Pope or Church of Rome to be an infallible Iudge , yet we doe not deny , but that there are Iudges which may proceed with certainty enough against all seditious Persons , such as draw men to disobedience either against Church or State , as well as against Rebells , and Traytors , and Theeves , and Murderers . 124 Ad § 23. The next § in the begining argues thus : For many ages there was no Scripture in the World : and for many more , there was none in many places of the world : yet men wanted not then and then some certain direction what to believe : Therefore there was then an infallible Iudge . Iust as if I should say , Yorke is not my way from Oxford to London , therefore Bristol is : Or a dogge is not a horse , therefore he is a man. As if God had no other waies of revealing himselfe to men , but only by Scripture and an infallible Church . S. Chrysostome and Isidorus Pelusiota conceaved he might use other meanes . And S. Paul telleth us that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 might be known by his workes ; and that they had the Law written in their hearts . Either of these waies might make some faithfull men without either necessity of Scripture or Church . 125 But D. Potter saies , you say , In the Iewish Church there was a living Iudge , indowed with an absolute infallible direction in cases of moment : as all points belonging to divine Faith are . And where was that infallible direction in the Iewish Church when they should have received Christ for their Messias , and refused him ? Or perhaps this was not a case of moment . D. Potter indeed might say very well , not that the high Priest was infallible , ( ●or certainly he was not ) but that his determination was to be of necessity obeyed , though for the justice of it there was no necessity that it should be believed . Besides , it is one thing to say , that the living judge in the Iewish Church , had an infallible direction : another , that he was necessitated to follow this direction . This is the priviledge which you challenge . But it is that , not this , which the Doctor attributes to the Iewes . As a man may truely say , the wise men had an infallible direction to Christ , without saying or thinking that they were constrained to follow it , and could not do● otherwise . 126 But either the Church retaines still her infallibility , or it was devested of it upon the receiving of Holy Scripture ; which is absurd . An argument me thinkes like this , Either you have hornes or you have lost them : but you never lost them , therefore you have them still . If you say you never had hornes ; so say I , for ought appeares by your reasons , the Church never had infallibility . 127 But some Scriptures were received in some places and not in others : therefore if Scriptures were the Iudge of Controversies , some Churches had one Iudge and some another . And what great inconvenience is there in that , that one part of England should have one Iudge , and another another ? especially seeing the bookes of Scripture which were received by those that received fewest , had as much of the doctrine of Christianity in them , as they all had which were received by any ; all the necessary parts of the Gospell being contained in every one of the four Gospells , as I have prov'd : So that they which had all the bookes of the New Testament had nothing superfluous : For it was not superfluous but profitable , that the same thing should be said divers times , and be testified by divers witnesses : And they that had but one of the four Gospells wanted nothing necessary : and therefore it is vainly infer'd by you , that with months and yeares , as new Canonicall Scriptures grew to be published , the Church altered her rule of Faith and judge of Controversies . 128 Heresies you say , would arise after the Apostles time and after the writing of Scriptures : These cannot be discovered , condemned & avoyded , unlesse the Church be infallible ; Therefore there must be a Church infallible . But I pray tell me , Why cannot Heresies be sufficiently discovered , condemned , & avoided , by them which believe Scripture to be the rule of Faith ? If Scripture be sufficient to Informe us what is the faith , it must of necessity be also sufficient to teach us what is Heresy : seeing Heresy is nothing but a manifest deviation from , and an opposition to the faith . That which is streight will plainly teach us what is crooked ; and one contrary cannot but manifest the other . If any one should deny , that there is a God : That this God is omnipotent , omniscient , good , just , true , mercifull , a rewarder of them that seek him , a punisher of them that obstinatly offend him ; that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of God , and the Saviour of the World : that it is he by obedience to whom men must look to be saved : If any man should deny either his Birth , or Passion , or Resurrection , or Assention , or sitting at the right hand of God : his having all power given him in Heaven and Earth ▪ That it is he whom God hath appointed to be judge of the quick and the dead : that all men shall rise again at the last day : That they which believe and repent shall be sav'd : That they which doe not believe or repent shall be damned : If a man should hold , that either the keeping of the Mosaicall Law is necessary to Salvation : or that good works are not necessary to Salvation : In a word , if any man should obstinatly contradict the truth of any thing plainly delivered in Scripture , who does not see , that every one which believes the Scripture , hath a sufficient meanes to discover , and condemne , and avoid that Heresy , without any need of an infallible guide ? If you say , that the obscure places of Scripture contain matters of Faith : I answere , that it is a matter of faith to believe that the sense of them , whatsoever it is , which was intended by God is true ; for he that does not doe so calls Gods Truth into question . But to believe this or that to be the true sense of them , or , to believe the true sense of them , and to avoid the false , is not necessary either to Faith or Salvation . For if God would have had his meaning in these places certainly known , how could it stand with his wisdome , to be so wanting to his own will and end , as to speak obscurely ? or how can it consist with his justice , to require of men to know certainly the meaning of those words , which he himselfe hath not revealed ? Suppose there were an absolute Monarch , that in his own absence from one of his Kingdomes , had written Lawes for the government of it , some very plainly , and some very ambiguously , and obscurely , and his Subjects should keep those that were plainly written with all exactnesse , and for those that were obscure , use their best diligence to find his meaning in them , and obey them according to the sense of them which they conceived ; should this King either with justice or wisdome be offended with these Subjects , if by reason of the obscurity of them , they mistook the sense of them , and faile of performance , by reason of their errour ? 128 But , It is more usefull & fit , you say , for the deciding of Controversies , to haue besides an infallible rule to goe by , a living infallible Iudge to determine them : & from hence you conclude , that certainly there is such a Iudge . But why then may not another say , that it is yet more usefull for many excellent purposes , that all the Patriarchs should bee infallible , then that the Pope only should ? Another , that it would bee yet more usefull , that all the Archbishops of every Province should be so , then that the Patriarchs only should be so . Another , That it would be yet more usefull , if all the Bishops of every Diocesse were so . Another , that it would be yet more available , that all the Parsons of every Parish should be so . Another , that it would be yet more excellent , if all the Fathers of Families were so . And lastly , another , that it were much more to be desired that every Man and every Woman were so ▪ just as much as the prevention of Controversies , is better then the decision of them , and the prevention of Heresies better then the condemnation of them ; and upon this ground conclude , by your own very cōsequence , That not only a generall Councell , nor only the Pope , but all the Patriarchs , Archbishops , Bishops , Pastors , Fathers , nay all the men in the World are infallible . If you say now , as I am sure you will , that this conclusion is most grosse , and absurd against sense and experience , then must also the ground be false , from which it evidently and undeniably follows , viz. that , That course of dealing with men seems alwaies more fit to Divine Providence , which seemes most 〈◊〉 to humane reason . 129 And so likewise , That there should men succeed the Apostles , which could shew the●selues to be their successours , by doing of Miracles , by speaking all kinde of languages , by delivering men to Satan , as S. Paul did Hymenaeus , and the incestuous Corinthian , it is manifest in humane reason it were incomparably more fit and usefull for the decision of Controversies , then that the successour of the Apostles should haue none of these gifts , and for want of the signes of Apostleship , be justly questionable whether he be his successour or no : and will you now conclude , That the Popes haue the gift of doing Miracles , as well as the Apostles had ? 130 It were in all reason very usefull and requisite , that the Pope should , by the assistance of Gods Spirit , be freed from the vices & passions of men , lest otherwise , the Authority given him for the good of the Church , he might imploy ( as divers Popes you well know haue done ) to the disturbance , and oppression and mischiefe of it . And will you conclude from hen●e , That Popes are not subject to the sins and passions of other men ? That there never haue been ambitious , covetous , lustfull , tyrannous Popes . 131 Who sees not that for mens direction it were much mor● beneficiall for the Church , that Infallibility should be setled in the Popes Person , then in a generall Councell : That so the meanes of deciding Controversies might be speedy , easy and perpetuall , whereas that of generall Councells is not so . And will you hence inferre , that not the Church Representative , but the Pope is indeed the infallible Iudge of Controversies ? certainly if you should , the Sorbon Doctors would not think this a good conclusion . 132 It had been very commodious ( one would think ) that , seeing either Gods pleasure was the Scripture should be translated , or else in his Providence he knew it would be so , that he had appointed some men for this businesse , and by his Spirit assisted them in it , that so we might have Translations as Authenticall as the Originall : yet you see God did not think fit to doe so . 133 It had been very commodious ( one would think ) that the Scripture should have been , at least for all things necessary , a Rule , plain and perfect : And yet you say , it is both imperfect and obscure , even in things necessary . 134 It had been most requisite ( one would think ) that the Copies of the Bibles , should have been preserved free from variety of readings , which makes men very uncertain in many places , which is the word of God , and which is the errour or presumption of man : and yet we see God hath not thought fit so to provide for us . 135 Who can conceive , but that an Apostolike Interpretation of all the difficult places of Scripture , would have been strāgely beneficiall to the Church , especially there being such danger in mistaking the sense of them , as is by you pretended , and God in his providence foreseeing that the greatest part of Christians , would not accept of the Pope for the Iudge of Controversies ? And yet we see God hath not so ordered the matter . 136 Who doth not see , that supposing the Bishop of Rome , had been appointed Head of the Church , and ●●dge of Controversies , that it would have been infinitely beneficiall to the Church , perhaps as much as all the rest of the Bible , that in some Book of Scripture which was to be undoubtedly received , this one Proposition had been set down in Termes , The Bishops of Rome shall be alwaies Monarchs of the Church , & they either alone , or with their adherents , the Guides of faith , and the Iudges of Controversies that shall arise amongst Christians ? This , if you will deal ingenuously , you cannot but acknowledge ; for then all true Christians would have submitted to him , as willingly as to Christ himselfe , neither needed you and your fellowes , have troubled your selfe to invent so many Sophismes for the proofe of it . There would have been no more doubt of it among Christians , then there is of the Nativity , Passion , Resurrection or Ascention of Christ. You were best now rubbe your forehead hard , and conclude upon us , that because this would have been so usefull to have been done , therefore it is done . Or if you be ( as I know you are ) too ingenuous to say so , then must you acknowledge , that the ground of your Argument , which is the very ground of all these absurdities , is most absurd ; and that it is our duty to be humbly thankfull for those sufficient , nay abundant meanes of Salvation , which God hath of his own goonesse granted us : and not conclude , he hath done that which he hath not done , because forsooth , in our vain judgements it seemes convenient he should have done so . 137 But you demand what repugnance there is betwixt infallibility in the Church , and existence of Scripture , that the production of the one must be the destruction of the other ? Out of which words I can frame no other argument for you thē this . There is no Repugnance between the Scriptures existence , and the Churches infallibility , therefore the Church is infallible . Which consequence will then be good , when you can shew , that nothing can be untrue , but that only which is impossible ; that whatsoever may be done , that also is done . Which , if it were true , would conclude both you and me to be infallible , as well as either your Church , or Pope : in as much as there is no more repugnance between the Scriptures existence and our infallibility , then there is between theirs . 138 But if Protestants will have the Scripture alone for their Iudge , let them first produce some Scripture , affirming , that by the entring thereof , infallibility went out of the Church . This Argument put in forme runs thus . No Scripture affirmes that by the entring thereof , infallibility went out of the Church : Therefore there is an infallible Church , & therefore the Scripture alone is not Iudge , that is , the Rule to judge by . But as no Scripture affirmes that by the entring of it , Infallibility went out of the Church , so neither doe we , neither have we any need to doe so . But we say , that it continued in the Church even together with the Scriptures , so long as Christ & his Apostles were living , and then departed : God in his providence having provided a plain and infallible Rule , to supply the defect of liuing and infallible Guides . Certainly if your cause were good , so great a wit as yours is , would devise better Arguments to maintain it . We can shew no Scripture affirming Infallibility to haue gone out of the Church , therefore it is Infallible . Somewhat like his discourse that said , It could not bee prov'd out of Scripture , that the King of Sweden was dead , therefore hee is still living . Me thinks in all reason , you that challenge privileges , and exemption from the condition of Men , which is to be subject to errour ; You that by vertue of this privilege usurp authority over mens consciences , should produce your Letters-patents from the King of Heaven , & shew some expresse warrant for this Authority you take upon you , otherwise you know the rule is , Vbicontrarium non manifestè probatur praesumitur pro libertate . 139 But D. Potter may remember what himselfe teacheth , That the Church is still endued with Infallibility in points Fundamentall , and consequently that Infallibility in the Church doth well agree with the Truth , the Sanctitie , yea with the sufficiency of Scripture , for all matters necessary to salvation . Still your discourse is so far from hitting the white , that it roves quite besides the But. You conclude that the infallibility of the Church may well agree with the Truth , the Sanctity , the Sufficiency of Scripture . But what is this but to abuse your Reader with the proofe of that which no man denies ? The Question is not , whether an infallible Church might agree with Scripture , but whether , there be an Infallible Church ? Iam dic Posthume de tribus Capellis . Besides , you must know there is a wide difference between , being infallible in Fundamentals , and being an infallible Guide even in Fundamentals . D. Potter saies , that the Church is the former : that is , There shall be some men in the world , while the world lasts , which erre not in Fundamentals ; for otherwise there should be no Church : For to say , the Church , while it is the Church , may erre in Fundamentalls , implies contradiction , and is all one as to say , The Church : while it is the Church , may not be the Church . So that to say , that the Church is infallible in Fundamentalls , signifies no more but this , There shall be a Church in the world for ever . But wee utterly deny the Church to be the latter ; for to say so , were to oblige our selves to finde some certain Society of men , of whom we might be certain , that they neither doe , nor can erre in Fundamentals , nor in declaring what is Fundamentall , what is not Fundamentall : and consequently to make any Church an infallible Guide in Fundamentals , would be to make it infallible in all things , which she proposes and requires to be believed . This therefore we deny both to your and all other Churches of any one denomination , as the Greek , the Roman , the Abyssine : that is indeed , we deny it simply to any Church . For no Church can possibly be fit to be a Guide , but only a Church of some certain denominatiō . For otherwise no man can possibly know which is the true Church , but by a pre-examination of the doctrine controverted , and that were not to be guided by the Church to the true doctrine , but by the true doctrine to the Church . Hereafter therefore , when you heare Protestants say , The Church is Infallible in Fundamentalls , you must not conceiue them , as if they meant as you doe , that some Society of Christians , which may be known by adhering to some one Head , for example , the Pope , or the Bishop of Constantinople , is infallible in these things : but only thus , That true Religion shall never be so farre driven out of the world , but that it shall alwaies haue some where or other , some that believe and professe it , in all things necessary to salvation . 140 But , you would therefore gladly know out of what Text he imagines that the Church , by the comming of Scripture , was deprived of infallibility in some points , and not in others ? And I also would gladly know , why you doe thus frame to your self vaine imaginations , & thē father them upon others ? We yeeld unto you , That there shall be a Church which never erreth in some points because ( as wee conceive , ) God hath promised so much ; but not , there shall be such a Church which doth or can erre in no points , because we finde not that God hath promised such a Church ; and therefore wee may not promise such a one to our selves . But for the Churches being deprived by the Scripture of Infallibility , in some points and not in others , that is a wild notion of your own , which we haue nothing to doe with . 141 But he affirmeth , that the Iewish Church retained Infallibility in her selfe ; and therefore it is unjustly , and unworthily done of him to depriue the Church of Christ of it . That the Iewes had sometimes an infallible miraculous direction from God , in some cases of moment , hee doth affirme and had good warrant : but that the Synagogue was absolutely Infallible , he no where affirmes , and therefore it is unjustly & unworthily done of you to obtrude it upon him . And indeed how can the Infallibility of the Synagogue be conceived , but only by setling it in the High Priest , and the company adhering and subordinate unto him ? And whether the high Priest was Infallible , when he believed not Christ to be the Messias , but condemn'd and excommunicated thē that so professed , and caused him to be crucified for saying so , I leaue it to Christians to judge . But then suppose God had been so pleased to doe as he did not , to appoint the Synagogue an infallible guide : Could you by your rules of Logick constrain him , to appoint such a one to Christians also , or say unto him , that , in wisdome he could not doe otherwise ? Vaine man that will be thus alwaies tying God to your imaginations ! It is well for us that he leaves us not without directions to him , but if he will doe this sometime by living Guides , sometime by written rules , what is that to you ? may not he doe what he will with his own ? 142 And whereas you say for the further enforcing of this Argugument , that there is greater reason to think the Church should be infallible , then the Synagogue : because to the Synagogue all Laws and Ceremonies &c. were more particularly , and minutely delivered , then in the new Testament is done , our Saviour leaving particulars to the determination of the Church . But I pray walk not thus in generality , but tell us what particulars ? If you mean particular rites , & ceremonies , and orders for goverment , we grant it , and you know we doe so . Our Saviour our only hath left a generall injunction by S. Paul , Let All things bee done decently and in Order . But what Order is fittest , i. e. what Time , what Place , what Manner , &c. is fittest , that he hath left to the discretion of the Governers of the Church . But if you mean , that hee hath only concerning maters of faith , the subject in Question , prescribed in generall , that we are to heare the Church , and left it to the Church to determine what particulars we are to belieue : The Church being nothing else but an aggregation of Believers , this in effect is to say , He hath left it to all Believers to determine what Particulars they are to believe . Besides it is so apparently false , that I wonder you could content your selfe , or think we should be contented with a bare saying , without any shew or pretence of proofe . 143 As for D. Potters objection against this Argument , That as well you might inferre , that Christians must haue all one King , because the Iewes had so , For ought I can perceive , notwithstanding any thing answered by you , it may stand still in force , though the truth is , it is urg'd by him not against the Infallibility but the Monarchy of the Church . For whereas you say , the disparity is very cleare : Hee that should urge this argument for one Monarch over the whole world , would say that this is to deny the Conclusion , and reply unto you , that there is disparity , as matters are now order'd , but that there should not be so . For that there was no more reason to believe that the Ecclesiasticall government of the Iews was a Pattern for the Ecclesiasticall government of Christians , then the Civill of the Iewes , for the Civill of the Christians . He would tell you , that the Church of Christ , and all Christian Commonwealths , and Kingdomes , are one and the same thing : and therefore he sees no reason why the Synagogue should be a Type and Figure of the Church , and not of the Commonwealth . He would tell you , that as the Church succeeded the Iewish Synagogue , so Christian Princes should succeed to Iewish Magistrates : that is the Temporal Governours of the Church should be Christians . He would tell you , that as the Church is compar'd to a house , a Kingdome , an Army , a Body , so all distinct Kingdomes might and should be one Armie , one Familie , &c. and that it is not so , is the thing he complaines of . And therefore you ought not to think it enough to say it is not so , but you should shew why it should not be so ; and why this argument will not follow , The Iewes had one King , therefore all Christians ought to haue : as well as this , The Iewes had one High Priest over them all , therefore all Christians also ought to haue . Hee might tell you moreover , that the Church may haue one Master , one Generall , one Head , one King , and yet he not be the Pope , but Christ. He might tell you , that you beg the Question , in saying without proof , that it is necessary to salvation , that all ( whether Christians or Churches ) have recourse to one Church , if you mean by one Church , one particular Church , which is to govern and direct all others : and that unlesse you mean so , you say nothing to the purpose . And besides , he might tell you , and that very truly , that it may seeme altogether as available for the Temporall good of Christians to be under one Temporall Prince , or Comonwealth , as for their salvatiō , to be subordinate to one Visible Head. I say as necessary , both for the prevention of the effusion of the Blood of Christians by Christians , & for the defence of Christendome , from the hostile invasions of Turks , & Pagans . And frō al this he might infer , that though now , by the fault of men , there were in severall Kingdomes , severall Lawes , Governments and Powers ; yet that it were much more expedient , that there were but one . Nay , not only expedient , but necessary ; if once your ground be setled for a generall rule , that what kinde of government the Iewes had , that the Christians must haue . And if you limit the generality of this Proposition , and frame the Argument thus : What kinde of Ecclesiasticall government the Iews had , that the Christians must haue , But They were governed by one High Priest , therefore These must be so : He will say that the first proposition of this syllogisme , is altogether as doubtfull as the conclusion ; and therefore neither fit nor sufficient to prove it , untill it selfe be proved . And then besides , that there is as great reason to believe this , That what kinde of Civill government the Iews had , that the Christians must haue . And so D. Potters objection remaines still unanswered : That there is as much reason to conclude a necessity of one King over all Christian Kingdomes , from the Iews having one King ; as one Bishop over all Churches , from their being under our High Priest. 144 Ad § . 24. Neither is this Discourse confirm'd by Irenaeus at all . Whether by this discourse you mean that immediatly forgoing , of the analogy between the Church and the Synagogue , to which this speech of Irenaeus , alleadged here by you , is utterly and plainly impertinent ; Or whether by this discourse , you mean ( as I think you doe ) not your discourse , but your conclusion which you discourse on , that is , that Your Church is the infallible Iudge in Controversies . For neither has Irenaeus one syllable to this purpose ; neither can it be deduced out of what he saies , with any colour of consequence . For first in saying , What if the Apostles had not left Scripture , ought we not to have followed the order of Tradition ? And in saying , That to this order many Nations yeild assent , who believe in Christ , having Salvation written in their hearts , by the Spirit of God , without Letters or Inke , and diligently keeping ancient Tradition : Doth he not plainly shew , that the Tradition he speakes of , is nothing else , but the very same that is written : nothing but to believe in Christ ? To which , whether Scripture alone , to them that believe it , be not a sufficient guide , I leave it to you to judge . And are not his wordes just as if a man should say , If God had not given us the light of the Sunne , we must have made use of candles and torches : If we had had no eyes , we must have felt out our way : If we had no leggs , we must have used crutches . And doth not this in effect import , that while we have the Sunne , we need no candles ? While we have our eyes , we need not feele out our way ▪ While we enjoy our leggs , we need not crutches ? And by like reason , Irenaeus in saying , If we had had no Scripture , we must have followed Tradition , and they that have none , doe well to doe so , doth he not plainly import that to them that have Scripture , and believe it , Tradition is unnecessary ? which could not be , if the Scripture did not contain evidently the whole tradition . Which whether Irenaeus believed or no , these words of his may informe you , Non enim per alios &c. we have received the disposition of our Salvation from no others , but from them , by whom the Gospell came unto us . Which Gospell truly , the Apostles first preached , and after wards by the will of God , delivered in writing to us , to be the Pillar and Foundation of our faith . Vpon which place Bellarmine's two observations , and his acknowledgment ensuing upon them , are very considerable , and as I conceive , as home to my purpose as I would wish them . His first Notandum is , That in the Christian Doctrine , some things are simply necessary for the Salvation of all men ; as the knowledge of the Articles of the Apostles Creed ; and besides , the knowledg of the ten Commandements , and some of the Sacraments . Other things not so necessary , but that a man may be saved , without the explicit knowledge , and belief , and profession of them . His Second Note is , That those things which were simply necessary , the Apostles were wont to preach to all men ; But of other things not all to all , but somethings to all , to wit , those things which were profitable for all , other things only to Prelats and Priests . These things premised , he acknowledgeth , That all those things were written by the Apostles , which are necessary for all , and which they were wont openly to preach to all ; But that other things were not all written : And therefore , when Irenaeus saies that the Apostles wrot what they Preach in the World , it is true , saith he , and not against Traditions , because they preached not to the People all things , but only those things , which were necessary or profitable for them . 145 So that at the most ; you can inferre from hence , but only a suppositive necessity of having an infallible Guide , and that grounded upon a false supposition , In case we had no Scripture , but an absolute necessity hereof , and to them who have and believe the Scripture , which is your assumption , cannot with any colour from hence be concluded , but rather the contrary . 146 Neither because ( as He saies ) it was then easy to receive the Truth from Gods Church , then , in the Age next after the Apostles , Then , when all the ancient and Apostolike Churches were at an agreement about the Fundamentalls of Faith : Will it therefore follow that now , 1600 yeares after , when the ancient Churches are divided almost into as many Religions as they are Churches , every one being the Church to it selfe , and hereticall to all other , that it is as easy , but extremely difficult or rather impossible , to find the Church first independently of the true Doctrine , and then to find the truth by the Church . 147 As for the last clause of the sentence , it will not any whit advantage , but rather prejudice your assertion . Neither will I seek to avoid the pressure of it , by saying , that he speaks of small Questions , and therefore not of Questions touching things necessary to Salvation , which can hardly be called small Questions ; But I will favour you so farre , as to suppose , that saying this of small Questions , it is probable , he would have said it much more of the Great : but I will answere that which is most certain and evident , and which I am confident , you your selfe , were you as impudent as I believe you modest , would not deny ; that the ancient Apostolique Churches are not now , as they were in Irenaeus's time : then they were all at unity about matters of faith , which unity was a good assurance that what they so agreed in , came from some one common Fountaine , and they had no other then of Apostolike Preaching . And this is the very ground of Tertullian's so often mistaken Prescription against Heretiques , Variasse debuerat Error Ecclesiarum , quod autem apud multos unum est , non est erratum sed traditum : If the Churches had erred they could not but have varied , but that which is one among so many , came not by Error but Tradition . But now the case is altered , and the mischiefe is , that these ancient Churches are divided among themselves ; and if we have recourse to them , one of them will say this is the way to heaven , another that . So that now in place of receiving from them certain and cleare truths , we must expect nothing but certain and cleare contradictions . 148 Neither will the Apostles depositing with the Church , all things belonging to truth , be any proof that the Church shall certainly keep this depositum , entire , and syncere , without adding to it , or taking from it ; for this whole depositum was committed to every particular Church , nay , to every particular man , which the Apostles converted . And yet no man , I think , will say , that there was any certainty , that it should be kept whole and inviolate by every man , and every Church . It is apparent out of Scripture , it was committed to Timothy , and by him consigned to other faithfull men : and yet S. Paul thought it not superfluous , earnestly to exhort him to the carefull keeping of it : which exhortation you must grant had been vain and superfluous , if the not keeping of it had been impossible . And therefore though Irenaeus saies , The Apostles fully deposited in the Church all truth , yet he saies not , neither can we inferre from what he saies , that the Church should alwaies infallibly keep this depositum , entire without the losse of any truth , and syncere without the mixture of any falshood . 149 Ad § . 25. But you proceed and tell us , That beside all this , the Doctrine of Protestants is destructive of it selfe . For either they have certain and Infallible meanes not to erre in interpreting ; or no● If not , Scripture to them cannot be a sufficient ground for infallible faith : If they have , and so cannot erre in interpreting Scripture , then they are able with infallibility to heare and determine all controversies of faith ; and so they may be , and are Iudges of Controversies , although they use the Scripture as a Rule . And thus against their own doctrine , they constitute another Iudge of Controversies beside Scripture alone . And may not we with as much reason substitute Church and Papists , instead of Scripture and Protestants , and say unto you , Besides all this , the doctrine of Papists is destructive of it selfe . For either they have certain and infallible meanes not to erre , in the choice of the Church , and interpreting her decrees , or they have not : If not , then the Church to them cannot be a sufficient ( but meerely a phantasticall ) ground for infallible faith , nor a meet Iudge of Controversies : ( For unlesse I be infallibly sure that the Church is Infallible , how can I be upon her Authority infallibly sure , that any thing she saies is Infallible ? ) If they have certain ▪ infallible meanes , and so cannot erre in the choice of their Church , and in interpreting her decrees , then they are able with Infallibility to heare , examine , and determine all controversies of faith , although they pretend to make the Church their Guide . And thus against their own Doctrine , they constitute another Iudge of controversies , besides the Church alone . Nay every one makes himselfe a chooser of his own Religion , and of his own sense of the Churches decrees , which very thing in Protestants they so highly condemne : and so in judging others , condemne themselves . 150 Neither in saying thus haue I only cry'd quittance with you : but that you may see how much you are in my debt , I will shew unto you , that for your Sophisme against our way , I haue given you a Demonstration against yours . First , I say , your Argument against us , is a transparent fallacy . The first part of it lyes thus : Protestants haue no meanes to interpret , without errour , obscure and ambiguous places of Scripture ; therefore plain places of Scripture cānot be to thē a sufficiēt ground of Faith. But though we pretend not to certain meanes of not erring , in interpreting all Scripture , particularly such places as are obscure and ambiguous , yet this me thinks should be no impediment but that we may have certain meanes of not erring in and about the sense of those places , which are so plain and cleer that they need no Interpreters ; and in such we say our Faith is contain'd . If you aske me how I can be sure that I know the true meaning of these places ? I aske you again , can you be sure that you understand what I , or any man else saies ? They that heard our Saviour and the Apostles preach , could they haue sufficient assurance , that they understood at any time , what they would have them doe ? if not , to what end did they heare them ? If they could , why may we not be as well assured , that we understand sufficiently , what we conceive plaine in their writings ? 151 Againe , I pray tell us , whether you doe certainly know the sense of these Scriptures , with which you pretend you are led to the knowledge of your Church ? If you doe not , how know you that there is any Church Infallible , and that these are the notes of it , & that this is the , Church that hath these notes ? If you doe , then give us leave to haue the same meanes , and the same abilities to know other plain places , which you have to know these . For if all Scripture be obscure , how come you to know the sense of these places ? If some places of it be plain , why should we stay here ? 152 And now , to come to the other part of your dilemma ; in saying , If they have certain meanes , and so cannot erre , mee thinkes you forget your selfe very much , and seeme to make no difference , between , having certain meanes to doe a thing , and the actuall doing of it . As if you should conclude , because all men have certain meanes of Salvation , therefore all men certainly must be saved , and cannot doe otherwise ; as if whosoever had a horse must presently get up and ride ; Whosoever had meanes to find out a way , could not neglect those meanes and so mistake it , God be thanked , that we have sufficient meanes to be certain enough of the truth of our Faith. But the Priviledge of not being in possibility of erring , that we challenge not , because we have as little reason as you to doe so : and you have none at all . If you aske , seeing we may possibly erre , how can we be assured we doe not ? I ask you again , seeing your eye-fight may deceive you , how can you be sure you see the Sunne , when you doe see it ? Perhaps you may be in a dream , and perhaps you , and all the men in the World have been so , when they thought they were awake , and then only awake , when they thought they dreamt . But this I am sure of , as sure as that God is good , that he will require no impossibilities of us : not an Infallible , nor a certainly — unerring belief , unlesse he hath given us certain meanes to avoid error ; and if we use those which we have , will never require of us , that we use that which we have not . 153 Now from this mistaken ground , that it is all one to have meanes of avoiding errour , and to be in no danger nor possibility of errour ; You inferre vpon us as an absurd conclusion , That we make our selves able to determine Controversies of faith with Infallibility , and Iudges of Controversies . For the latter part of this inference , we acknowledge and imbrace it . We doe make our selves Iudges of controversies : that is , we doe make use of our own understanding in the choice of our Religion . But this , if it be a crime , is common to us with you , ( as I have proved above ) and the difference is , not that wee are choosers , and you not choosers , but that we , as we conceive , choose wisely , but you being wilfully blind choose to follow those that are so too ; not remembring what our Saviour hath told you , when the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch . But then again I must tell you , you have done ill to confound together , Iudges , and infallible Iudges ; unlesse you will say , either that we have no Iudges in our Courts of Civill judicature , or that they are all Infallible . 154 Thus haue we cast off your dilemma , and broken both the hornes of it . But now my retortion lies heavy upon you , and will not be turned off . For first you content not your selves with a morall certainty of the things you beleive , nor with such a degree of assurance of them , as is sufficient to produce obedience to the condition of the new Covenant , which is all that we require . Gods Spirit , if he please , may work more , a certainty of adherence beyond a certainty of evidence . But neither God doth , nor man may require of us as our dutie , to give a greater assent to the conclusion then the premises deserue ; to build an infallible Faith upon Motives that are only highly credible , and not infallible , as it were a great and heavy building upon a foundation that hath not strength proportionable . But though God require not of us such unreasonable things , You doe , and tell men they cannot be saved , unlesse they beleive your proposals with an infallible Faith. To which end they must beleive also your Propounder , your Church , to be simply Infallible . Now how is it possible for them to give a rationall assent to the Churches infallibility , unlesse they have some infallible meanes to know that she is infallible ? Neither can they infallibly know the infallibility of this meanes , but by some other , and so on for ever : unlesse they can dig so deep as to come at length to the Rock , that is , to settle all upon something evident of it selfe , which is not so much as pretended . But the last resolution of all is into Motives , which indeed upon examination will scarce appeare probable , but are not so much as avouched to be any more then very credible . For example , if I aske you why you doe beleive Transubstantiatiō ? What can you answer , but because it is a Revelation of the Prime Verity . I demaund again , how can you assure your selfe or me of that , being ready to embrace it if it may appeare to be so ? And what can you say , but that you know it to be so , because the Church saies so , which is Infallible . If I aske , what meane You by your Church ? You can tell me nothing , but the company of Christians which adhere to the Pope . I demaund then lastly : Why should I beleive this company to be the infallible Propounder of Divine Revelation ? And then you tell me , that there are many Motives to induce a man to this beleife . But are these Motives lastly infallible ? No say you , but very credible . Well , let them passe for such , because now we have not leasure to examine them . Yet me thinks seeing the Motives to believe the Churches infallibility , are only very credible , it should also be but as credible that your Church is Infallible , and as credible , and no more , perhaps somewhat lesse , that her proposals , particularly Transubstantiation , are Divine Revelations . And me thinks You should require only a Morall , and modest assent to them , and not a Divine as you call it , and infallible Faith. But then of these Motives to the Churches Infallibility , I hope you will give us leave to consider , and judge whether they be indeed Motives , and sufficient ; or whether they be not Motives at all , or not sufficient ; or whether these Motives or inducements to your Church be not impeached , and opposed with Compulsives , and enforcements from it ; or lastly , whether these Motives which You use , be not indeed only Motives to Christianity , and not to Popery : giue me leave for distinction sake to call your Religion so . If we may not judge of these things , how can my judgment be moved with that which comes not within its cognizance ? If I may , then at least I am to be a Iudge of all these Controversies . 1. Whether every one of these Motives be indeed a Motive to any Church ? 2. If to some , whether to Yours ? 3. If to Yours , whether sufficient , or insufficient ? 4. Whether other Societies haue not as many , and as great Motives to draw me to them ? 5. Whether I haue not greater reason to beleive you doe erre , then that you cannot ? And now Sir I pray let me trouble You with a few more Questions . Am I a sufficient Iudge of these Controversies , or no ? If of these , why shall I stay here , why not of others ? Why not of all ? Nay doth not the true examining of these few , containe and lay upon me the examination of all ? What other Motives to your Church have you , but your Notes of it ? Bellarmine gives some 14. or 15. And one of these fifteene containes in it the examination of all controversies , and not only so , but of all uncontroverted Doctrines . For how shall I , or can I know the Church of Romes conformity with the Ancient Church , unlesse I know first what the Ancient Church hid hold , and then what the Church of Rome doth hold ; and lastly , whether they be conformable , or if in my judgment they seeme not conformable , I am then to think the Church of Rome not to be the Church , for want of the Note which she pretends is proper , and perpetuall to it . So that for ought I can see , Iudges we are and must be of all sides , every one for himselfe , and God for us all . 155 Ad § 26. I answere ; This assertion , that Scripture alone is Iudge of all Controversies in Faith , if it be taken properly , is neither a Fundamentall nor Vnfundamentall point of Faith , nor no point of Faith at all , but a plaine falshood . It is not a Iudge of Controversies but a Rule to Iudge them by ; and that not an absolutly perfect Rule , but as perfect as a written Rule can be ; which must alwayes need something else , which is either evidently true , or evidently credible to give attestation to it , and that in this case is Vniversall Tradition . So that Vniversall Tradition is the Rule to judge all Controversies by . But then because nothing besides Scripture , comes to us with as full a streame of Tradition as Scripture , Scripture alone , and no unwritten Doctrine , nor no Infallibility of any Church , having attestation from Tradition truely Vniversall ; for this reason we conceive , as the Apostles persons while they were liuing were the only Iudges of controversies , so their Writings , now they are dead , are the only Rule for us to judge them by : There being nothing unwritten , which can goe in upon halfe so faire cards , for the title of Apostolike Tradition , as these things which by the confession of both Sides are not so : I mean the doctrine of the Millenaries , and of the necessity of the Eucharist for Infants . 156 Yet when we say , the Scripture is the only Rule to judge all Controversies by , me thinks you should easily conceiue , that wee would be understood of all those that are possible to be judg'd by Scripture , and of those that arise among such as believe the Scripture . For if I had a controversie with an Atheist whether there were a God or no , I would not say , that the Scripture were a Rule to judge this by : seeing that doubting whether there be a God or no , he must needs doubt whether the Scripture be the word of God : or if hee does not , hee grants the Question , and is not the man we speak of . So likewise , if I had a controversie about the Truth of Christ with a lew , it would be vainly done of me , should I presse him which the Authority of the new Testament which he believes not , untill out of some principles common to us both , I had persuaded him that it is the Word of God. The New Testament therefore while he remaines a Iew would not be a fit Rule to decide this Controversie ; In as much as that which is doubted of it selfe , is not fit to determine other doubts . So likewise if there were any that believed Christian Religion , and yet believed not the Bible to be the Word of God , though they believed the matter of it to be true , ( which is no impossible supposition , for I may believe a book of S. Austines , to containe nothing but the Truth of God , & yet not to haue been inspired by God himselfe , ) against such men therefore there were no disputing out of the Bible ; because nothing in question can be a proof to it selfe . When therefore we say the Scripture is a sufficient meanes to determine all controversies , we say not this , either to Atheists , Iewes , Turks , or such Christians ( if there be any such ) as believe not Scripture to be the word of God. But among such men only , as are already agreed upon this , That the Scripture is the Word of God , we say all controversies that arise about Faith , are either not at all decidable & consequently not necessary to be believed one way or other , or they may be determined by Scripture . In a Word , That all things necessary to be believed are evidently contain'd in Scripture , and what is not there evidently contained , cannot be necessary to be believed . And our reason hereof is convincing ; because nothing can challenge our beliefe , but what hath descended to us from Christ by Originall and Vniversall Tradition : Now nothing but Scripture hath thus descended to us , Therefore nothing but Scripture can challenge our beliefe . Now then to come up closer to you , and to answer to your Question , not as you put it , but as you should haue put it : I say , That this position , Scripture alone is the rule whereby they which belieue it to be Gods Word are to judge all Controversies in Faith , is no fundamētall point . Though not for your Reasons : For your first and strongest reason you see is plainly voided and cut off by my stating of the Question as I haue done , and supposing in it that the parties at variance are agreed about this , That the Scripture is the word of God ; and consequently that this is none of their Controversies . To your second , That Controversies cannot be ended without some living Authority , We haue said already , that necessary Controversies may be & are decided . And if they be not ended , this is not through defect of the Rule , but through the default of Men. And for these that cannot thus be ended , it is not necessary they should be ended . For if God did require the ending of them , he would have provided some certain meanes for the ending of them . And to your Third , I say , that your pretence of using these meanes is but hypocriticall : for you use them with prejudice , and with a setled resolution not to believe any thing which these meanes happily may suggest into you , if it any way crosse your pre-conceav'd persuasion of your Churches infallibility . You give not your selves liberty of judgement in the use of them , nor suffer your selves to bee led by them to the Truth , to which they would lead you , would you but be as willing to believe this consequence , Our Church doth oppose Scripture , therefore it doth erre , therefore it is not Infallible , as you are resolute to believe this , The Church is infallible , therefore it doth not erre , and therefore it doth not oppose Scripture , though it seem to doe so never so plainly . 157 You pray , but it is not that God would bring you to the true Religion , but that he would confirm you in your own . You conferre places , but it is that you may confirm , or colour over with plausible disguises your erroneous doctrine , not that you may judge of them & forsake them if there be reason for it . You consult the Originalls , but you regard them not when they make against your Doctrine or Translation . 158 You adde not only the Authority , but the Infallibility , not of Gods Church , but of the Roman , a very corrupt and degenerous part of it : whereof D. Potter never confessed , that it cannot erre damnably . And which being a company made up of particular men , can afford you no help , but the industry , learning , and wit of private men : and that these helps may not help you out of your errour , tell you , that you must make use of none of all these to discover any errour in the Church , but only to maintaine her impossibility or erring . And lastly , D. Potter assures himselfe that your Doctrine and practises are damnable enough in themselves ; Only he hopes ( and spes est rei incertae nomen ) he hopes , I say , that the Truths which you retain , especially the necessity of repentance and faith in Christ , will bee as an antidote to you against the errours which you maintain ; and that your superstructions may burne , yet they amongst you , Qui sequun tur Absalonem in simplicitate cor dis may be saved , yet so as by fire . Yet his thinking so is no reason for you or me to think so , unlesse you suppose him infallible ; and if you doe , why doe you write against him ? 159 Notwithstanding , though not for these reasons , yet for others , I conceive this Doctrine not Fundamentall : Because if a man should believe Christian Religion wholly , and entirely , and live according to it , such a man , though he should not know or not believe the Scripture to be a Rule of Faith , no nor to be the word of God , my opinion is he may be saved ; and my reason is , because he performes the entire condition of the new Covenant , which is , that we believe the matter of the Gospell , and not that it is contained in these or these Bookes . So that the Bookes of Scripture are not so much the objects of our faith , as the instruments of conveying it to our understanding ; and not so much of the being of the Christian Doctrine , as requisite to the well being of it . Irenaeus tels us ( as M. K. acknowledgeth ) of some barbarous Nations , that believed the Doctrine of Christ , and yet believed not the Scripture to be the word of God , for they never heard of it , and Faith comes by hearing : But these barbarous people might be saved : therefore men might be saved without believing the Scripture to be the word of God ; much more without believing it to be a Rule , and a perfect Rule of Faith. Neither doubt I , but if the bookes of Scripture had been proposed to them by the other parts of the Church , where they had been before received , and had been doubted of , or even rejected by those barbarous nations , but still by the bare beliefe and practise of Christianity , they might be saved : God requiring of us under pain of damnation , only to believe the verities therein contained , and not the divine Authority of the bookes wherein they are contained . Not but that it were now very strange and unreasonable , if a man should belieue the matter of these bookes , and not the Authority of the bookes : and therefore if a man should professe the not believing of these , I should have reason to fear he did not believe that . But there is not alwaies an equall necessity for the belief of those things , for the belief whereof there is an equall reason . We have I believe as great reason to believe there was such a man as Henry the eight K. of England , as that Iesus Christ suffered under Pontius Pila●● : yet this is necessary to be believed , and that is not so . So that if any man should doubt of or disbelieve that , it were most unreasonably done of of him , yet it were no mortall sinne , nor no sinne at all : God having no where commanded men under pain of damnation to believe all which reason induceth them to believe . Therefore as an Executor , that should performe the whole will of the dead ; should fully satisfy the Law , though he did not believe that Parchment to be his written Will , which indeed is so ? So I believe , that he who believes all the particular doctrines which integrate Christianity , and lives according to them , should be saved , though he neither believed nor knew that the Gospels were written by the Evangelists , or the Epistles by the Apostles . 160 This discourse whether it be rationall and concluding or no , I submit to better judgement ; But sure I am , that the corollary which you draw from this position , that this point is not Fundamenta● , is very inconsequent ; that is , that we are uncertain of the truth of it , because we say the whole Church , much more particular Churches and privat men may erre in points not Fundamentall . A pretty sophisme , depending upon this Principle , that whosoever possibly may erre , he cannot be certain that he doth not erre . And upon this ground , what shall hinder me from concluding , that seeing you also hold , that neither particular Churches , nor private men are Infallible even in Fundamentalls , that even the Fundamentalls of Christianity , remain to you uncertain ? A Iudge may possibly erre in judgement , can he therefore never have assurance that he hath judged right ? A travailer may possibly mistake his way , must I therefore be doubtfull whether I am in the right way from my Hall to my Chamber ? Or can our London carrier have no certainty , in the middle of the day , when he is sober and in his wits , that he is in the way to London ? These you see are right worthy consequences , and yet they are as like your own , as an egge to an egge , or milke to milke . 161 And for the selfe same reason ( you say ) we are not certain , that the Church is not Iudge of Controversies : But now this selfe same appears to be no reason , and therefore , for all this , we may be certain enough that the Church is no Iudge of Controversies . The ground of this sophisme is very like the former , viz. that we can be certain of the falshood of no propositions , but these only which are damnable errors . But I pray good Sir , give me your opinion of these : The Snow is black , the Fire is cold , that M. knot is Archbishop of Toledo , that the whole is not greater then a part of the whole , that twise two make not foure : In your opinion , good Sir , are these damnable Haeresies ? or because they are not so , have we no certainty of the falshood of them ? I beseech you Sir to consider seriously , with what strange captions , you have gone about to delude your King and your Country ; and if you be convinced , they are so , give glory to God , and let the world know it , by your deserting that Religion , which stands upon such deceitfull foundations . 162 Besides ( you say ) among publique conclusions defended in Oxford , the yeare 1633. to the Questions , Whether the Church have authority to determine controversies of Faith ? And to interpret holy Scripture ? The answere to both is affirmative . But what now if I should tell you , that in the year 1632. among publique Conclusions defended in Doway , one was , That God predeterminates men to all their Actions good , bad , and indifferent ? Will you think your selfe obliged to be of this opinion ? If you will , say so : If not , doe as you would be done by . Again , me thinkes so subtil a man as you are , should easily apprehend a wide difference between Authority to doe a thing , and Infallibility in doing it : & againe , between a conditionall infallibility & an absolute . The former , the Doctor together with the Article of the Church of England , attributeth to the Church , nay to particular Churches , and I subscribe to his opinion : that is , an Authority of determining controversies of faith , according to plain and evident Scripture and Vniversall Tradition , and Infallibility while they proceed according to this Rule . As if there should arise an Heretique , that should call in Question Christs Passion and Resurrection , the Church had Authority to decide this Controversy , and infallible direction how to doe it , and to excommunicate this man , if he should persist in errour . I hope you will not deny but that the Iudges have Authority to determine criminall and Civill Controversies ; and yet I hope you will not say , that they are absolutely Infallible in their determinations . Infallible while they proceed according to Law , and if they doe so : but not infallibly certain that they shall ever doe so . But that the Church should be infallibly assisted by Gods spirit to decide rightly all emergent Controversies , even such as might be held diversly of divers men , Salva compage fidei , and that we might be absolutely certain that the Church should never faile to decree the truth , whether she used meanes or no , whether she proceed according to her Rule or not ; or lastly that we might be absolutely certain that she would never fail to proceed according to her Rule , this the defender of these conclusions said not : and therefore said no more to your purpose , then you have all this while , that is , just nothing . 163 Ad § . 27. To the place of S. Austin alleaged in this paragraph . I Answer . First that in many things you will not bee tried by S. Augustines judgement , nor submit to his authority ; not concerning Appeals to Rome , not concerning Transubstantiation , not touching the use and worshiping of Images , not concerning the State of Saints soules before the day of judgement , not touching the Virgin Maries freedome from actuall and originall sinne , not touching the necessity of the Eucharist for Infants , not touching the damning Infants to hell that dye without Baptisme , not touching the knowledge of Saints departed , not touching Purgatory , not touching the fallibility of Councells , even generall Councells , not touching perfection and perspicuity of Scripture in matters necessary to Salvation , not touching Auricular Confession , not touching the halfe Communion , not touching Prayers in an unknown tongue ; In these things , I say , you will not stand to S. Austines judgement , and therefore can with no reason or equity require us to doe so in this matter . 2. To S. Augustine in heat of disputation against the Donatists , and ransacking all places for arguments against them , we oppose S. Austine out of this heat , delivering the doctrine of Christianity calmely , and mode rately ; where he saies , In iis quae apertè posita sunt in sacris Scripturis , omnia ea reperiuntur quae continent ●idem , mores'que vivendi . 3 Wee say , he speaks not of the Roman but the Catholique Church , of farre greater extent , and therefore of farre greater credit and authority then the Roman Church . 4 He speaks of a point not expressed , but yet not contradicted by Scripture ; whereas the errors we charge you with , are contradicted by Scripture . 5 He saies not that Christ has recommended the Church to us for an Infallible definer of all emergent controversies , but for a credible witnesse of Ancient Tradition . Whosoever therefore refuseth to follow the practise of the Church ( understand of all places and ages ) though he be thought to resist our Saviour , what is that to us , who cast off no practises of the Church , but such as are evidently post-nate to the time of the Apostles , and plainly contrary to the practise of former and purer times . Lastly it is evident , and even to impudence it selfe undeniable , that upon this ground , of beleiving all things taught by the present Church as taught by Christ , Error was held , for example , the necessity of the Eucharist for infants , and that in S. Austines time , and that by S. Austine himselfe : and therefore without controversy this is no certain ground for truth , which may support falshood as well as truth . 164 To the Argument wherewith you conclude , I Answere , That though the visible Church shall alwaies without faile propose so much of Gods revelation , as is sufficient to bring men to Heaven , for otherwise it will not be the visible Church , yet it may sometimes adde to this revelation things superfluous , nay hurtfull , nay in themselves damnable , though not unpardonable ; and sometimes take from it things very expedient and profitable , and therefore it is possible , without si●ne , to resist in some things the Visible Church of Christ. But you presse us farther , and demand , what visible Church was extant , when Luther began , whether it were the Roman or Protestant Church ? As if it must of necessity either be Protestant or Roman , or Roman of necessity , if it were not Protestant ! yet this is the most usuall fallacy of all your disputers , by some specious Arguments to perswade weak men that the Church of Protestants cannot be the true Church ; and thence to inferre , that without doubt it must be the Roman . But why may not the Roman be content to be a part of it , and the Grecian another ? And if one must be the whole , why not the Greek Church , as well as the Roman ? there being not one Note of your Church which agrees not to her as well as to your own ; unlesse it be , that she is poor , and oppressed by the Turk , and you are in glory and splendor . 165 Neither is it so easy to be determined as you pretend , That Luther and other Protestants opposed the whole visible Church in matters of Faith , neither is it so evident that the Visible Church may not fall into such a state wherein she may be justly opposed . And lastly for calling the distinction of points into Fundamentall and not Fundamentall , an evasion , I believe you will find it easier to call it so , then to prove it so . But that shall be the issue of the Controversy in the next Chapter . CHAP. III. That the distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall , is neither pertinent , nor true in our present Controversie . And that the Catholike Visible Church cannot erre , in either kinde of the said points . THIS distinction is abused by Protestants to many purposes of theirs , and therefore if it be either untrue or impertinent ( as they understand , and apply it ) the whole edifice built thereon , must be ruinous and false . For if you object their bitter and continued discords in matters of faith , without any means of agreement ; they instantly tell you ( as Charity mistaken plainly shewes ) that they differ only in p●ints not fundamentall . If you convince them , even by their own Confessions , that the ancient Fathers taught divers points held by the Roman Church against Protestants ; they reply , that those Fathers may neverthelesse be saved , because those errours were not fundamentall . If you will them to remember , that Christ must alwaies haue a visible Church on earth , with administration of Sacraments , and succession of Pa●stors , and that when Luther appeared there was no Church distinct from the Roman , whose Communion and doctrine , Luther then for●ook , and for that cause must be guilty of Schisme and Herosie ; they haue an Answer ( such as it is ) that the Catholike Church cannot perish , yet may erre in points not fundamentall , and therefore Luther and other Protestants were obliged to forsake her for such errors , under paine of Damnation ; as if ( forsooth ) it were Damnable , to hold an error not Fundamentall , nor Damnable . If you wonder how they can teach , that both Catholiques , and Protestants may be saved in their severall professions ; they salve this contradiction , by saying , that we both agree in all fundamentall points of faith , which is enough for salvation . And yet , which is prodigiously strange , they could never be induced to give a Catalogue what points in particular be fundamentall , but only by some generall description , or by referring us to the Apostles Creed , without determining , what points therein be fundamentall , or not fundamentall for the matter ; and in what sense , they be , or be not such : and yet concerning the meaning of divers points contained , or reduced to the Creed , they differ both from us , and among themselves . And indeed , it being impossible for them to exhibit any such Catalogue , the said distinction of points , although it were pertinent , and true , cannot serve them to any purpose , but still they must remaine uncertaine , whether or not they disagree from one another ; from the ancient Fathers ; and from the Catholique Church , in points fundamentall : which is to say , they have no certainty , whether they enjoy the substance of Christian Faith , without which they cannot hope to be saved . But of this more heerafter . 2 And to the end , that what shall be said concerning this distinction , may be better understood , wee are to observe ; that there be two precepts , which concerne the vertue of faith , or our obligation to believe divine truths . The one is by Divines called Affirmative , whereby we are obliged to have a positive explicite belief of some chief Articles of Christian faith . The other is ●ermed Negative , which strictly binds us not not to disbelieve , that is , not to believe the contrary of any one point sufficiently represented to our understanding , as revealed , or spoken by Almighty God. The said Affirmative Precept ( according to the nature of such commands ) injoynes some act to be performed , but not at all times , nor doth it equally bind all sorts of persons , in respect of all objects to be believed . For objects ; we grant that some are more necessary to be explicitely , and severall believed then other : either because they are in themselves more great , and weighty ; or els in regard they instruct us in some necessary Christian duty towards God , our selves , or our Neighbour , For persons ; no doubt but some are obliged to know distinctly more then others , by reason of their office , vocation , capacity or the like . For times ; we are not obliged to be still in act of exercising acts of faith , but according as severall occasions permit , or require . The second kind of precept called Negative , doth ( according to the nature of all such commands ) oblige universally , all persons , in respect of all objects ; and at all times ; se●per & pro semper , as Divines speak . This generall doctrine will be more cleere by examples ▪ I am not obliged to be alwaies helping my Neighbour , because the Affirmative precept of Charity , bindeth only in some particular cases : But I am alwaies bound by a Negative precept , never to doe him any hurt , or wrong . I am not alwaies bound to utter what I know to be true : yet I am obliged , never to speak any one least untruth , against my knowledge . And ( to come to our present purpose ) there is no Affirmative precept , commanding us to be at all times actually believing any one , or all Articles of faith : But we are obliged , never to exercise any act against any one truth , known to be revealed . All sorts of persons are not bound explicitely , and distinctly to know all things testified by God either in Scripture , or otherwise : but every one is obliged , not to believe the contrary of any one point , known to be testified by God. For that were in fact to affirme , that God could be deceived , or would deceive , which were to overthrow the whole certainty of our faith , wherein the thing most principall , is not the point which we believe , which Divines call the Materiall Object , but the chiefest is the Motive for which we believe , to wit , Almighty Gods infallible revelation , or authority , which they terme the Formall Object of our faith . In two senses therefore , and with a double relation , points of faith may be called fundamentall , and necessary to salvation , The one is taken with reference to the Affirmative Precept , when the points are of such quality that there is obligation to know and believe them explicitely and severally . In this sense we grant that there is difference betwixt points of faith , which D. Potter a to no purpose laboureth to prove against his Adversary , who in expresse words doth grant and explicate b it . But the Doctor thought good to dissemble the matter , and not to say one pertinent word in defence of his distinction , as it was impugned by Charity Mistaken , and as it is wont to be applied by Protestants . The other sense , according to which , points of faith may be called Fundamentall , and necessary to salvation , with reference to the Negative precept of faith , is such , that we cannot without grievous sinne , and forfeiture of salvation , disbelieve any one point , sufficiently propounded , as revealed by Almighty God. And in this sense we avouch , that there is no distinction in points of faith , as if to reject some must bee damnable , and to reject others , equally proposed as Gods word , might stand with salvation . Yea the obligation of the Negative precept is farre more strict , then is that of the Affirmative , which God freely imposed , and may freely release . But it is impossible , that he can dispense , or give leave to disbelieue , or deny what he affirmeth : & in this sense , sin & damnation are more inseparable from error in points not fundamentall , then from ignorance in Articles fundamentall . All this I shew by an example , which I wish to be particularly noted for the present , and for divers other occasions hereafter . The Creed of the Apostles containes divers fundamentall points of faith , as the Deity , Trinity of Persons , Incarnation , Passion , and Resurrection of our Saviour Christ &c. It containes also some points , for their matter , and nature in themselves not fundamentall ; as under what Iudge our Saviour suffered , that he was buried , the circumstance of the time of his Resurrection the third day &c. But yet neverthelesse , whosoever once knowes that these points are contained in the Apostles Creed , the deniall of them is damnable , and is in that sense a fundamentall error ; and this is the precise point of the present question . 3 And all that hitherto hath been said , is so manifestly true , that no Protestant or Christian , if he doe but understand the termes , and state of the Question , can possibly deny it : In so much as I am amazed , that men who otherwise are endued with excellent wits , should so enslave themselves to their Predecessors in Protestantisme● , as still to harp on this distinction , and never regard how impertinently , & untruly it was implied by them at first , to make all Protestants seem to be of one fayth , because forsooth they agree in fundamentall points . For the difference among Protestants , consists not in that some believe some points , of which others are ignorant , or not bound expressely to know ( as the distinction ought to be applied ; ) but that some of them disbelieve , and directly , wittingly , and willingly oppose what others doe believe to be testified by the word of God , wherein there is no difference between points fundamentall , and not fundamentall ; Because till points fundamentall be sufficiently proposed as revealed by God , it is not against faith to reject them , or rather without sufficient proposition it is not possible prudently to believe them ; and the like is of points not fundamentall , which assoone as they come to be sufficiently propounded as divine Truths , they can no more be denyed , then points fundamentall propounded after the same manner . Neither will it avayle them to their other end , that for preservation of the Church in being , it is sufficient that she doe not erre in points fundamentall . Fo● if in the mean time she maintain any one Errour against Gods revelation , be the thing in it selfe never so small , her Errour is damnable , and destructive of salvation . 4 But D. Potter forgetting to what purpose Protestants make use of their distinction , doth finally overthrow it , and yields to as much as we can desire . For , speaking of that measure c & Quantity of faith without which none can be saved , he sayth : It is enough to believe some things by a vertuall faith , or by a generall , and as it were , a negative faith , whereby they are not denyed or contradicted . Now our question is in case that divine truths , although not fundamentall , be denied and contradicted ; aad therefore , even according to him , all such deniall excludes salvation . After , he speaks more plainly . It is true ( saith he ) whatsoever d is revealed in Scripture , or propoundid by the Church out of Scripture , is in some sense fundamentall , in regard of the divine authority of God , and his word , by which it is recommended : that is , such as may not be de●ied , or contradicted without Infidelity : such as every Christian is bound with humility , and reverence to believe , whensoever the knowledge thereof is offered to him . And further : Where e the revealed will or word of God is sufficiently propounded ; there he that opposeth , is convinced of error , and he who is thus convinced is an Heretique , and Heresie is a work of the flesh which excludeth from heaven ( Gal. 5. 20. 21. ) And hence it followeth , that it is FVNDAMENTALL to a Christians FAITH , and necessary for his salvation , that he believe all revealed Truths of God , whereof he may be convinced that they are from God. Can any thing be spoken more clearly or directly for us , that it is a Fundamentall error to deny any one point , though never so small , if once it be sufficiently propounded , as a divine truth , and that there is , in this sense , no distinction betwixt points fundamentall , and not fundamentall ? And if any should chance to imagine , that it is against the foundation of faith , not to believe points Fundamentall , although they be not sufficiently propounded , D. Potter doth not admit of this f difference betwixt points fundamentall , and not fundamentall . For he teacheth , that sufficient proposition of revealed truth is required before a man can be convinced , and for want of sufficient conviction he excuseth the Disciples from heresy , although they believed not our Saviours Resurrection , g which is a very fundamentall point of faith . Thus then I argue out of D. Potters own confession : No error is damnable unlesse the contrary truth be sufficiently propounded as revealed by God : Every error is damnable , if the contrary truth be sufficiently propounded as revealed by God : Therefore all errors are alike for the generall effect of damnation , if the difference arise not from the manner of being propounded . And what now is become of their distinction ? 5 I will therefore conclude with this Argument . According to all Philosophy and Divinity , the Vnity , and distinction of every thing followeth the Nature and Essence thereof , and therefore if the Nature and being of faith , be not taken from the matter which a man believes , but from the motive for which he believes , ( which is Gods word or Revelation ) we must likewise affirme that the Vnity , and Diversity of faith , must be measured by Gods revelation ( which is alike for all objects ) and not by the smalnesse , or greatnesse of the matter which we believe . Now , that the nature of faith is not taken from the greatnesse , or smalnesse of the things believed , is manifest ; because otherwise one who believes only fundamentall points , and another who together with them , doth also believe points not fundamentall , should have faith of different natures , yea there should be as many differences of faith , as there are different points which men believe , according to different capacities , or instruction &c. all which consequences are absurd , and therefore we must say , that Vnity in Faith doth not depend upon points fundamentall , or not fundamentall , but upon Gods revelation equally or unequally proposed : and Protestants pretending an Vnity only by reason of their agreement in fundamentall points , doe indeed induce as great a multiplicity of faith as there is multitude of different objects which are believed by them , and since they disagree in things Equally revealed by Almighty God , it is evident that they forsake the very Formall motive of faith , which is Gods revelanon and consequently loose all Faith , and Vnity therein . 6 The first part of the Title of this Chapter ( That the distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall in the sense of Protestants , is both impertinent and untrue ) being demonstrated ; let us now come to the second : That the Church is infallible in all her definitions , whether they concerne points fundamentall , or not fundamentall , And this I prove by these reasons . 7 It hath been shewed in the precedent Chapter , that the Church is Iudge of Controversies ; which she could not be , if she could erre in any one point , as Doctor Potter would not deny , if he were once perswaded that she is Iudge . Because if the could erre in some points , we could not rely upon her Authority and Iudgment in any one thing . 8 This same is proved by the reason we alleadged before , that seeing the Church was infallible in all her definitions ere Scripture was written ( unlesse we will take away all certainty of faith for that time ) we cannot with any shew of reason affirme , that shee hath been deprived thereof by the adjoyned confort , and helpe of sacred writ . 9 Moreover to say , that the Catholique Church may propose any false doctrine , maketh her lyable to damnable sinne and error ; and yet D. Potter teacheth that the Church cannot erre damnably . For if in that kind of Oath , which Divines call Assertorium , wherein God is called to witnesse , every falshood is a deadly sinne in any private person whatsoever , although the thing be of it selfe neither materiall , nor prejudiciall to any ; because the quantity , or greatnesse of that sinne is not measured so much by the thing which is affirmed , as by the manner ▪ ; and authority whereby it is avouched , and by the injury that is offered to Almighty God in applying his testimony to a falshood : in which respect it is the unanimous consent of all Divines , that in such kind of Oathes , no levitas materiae , that is , smallnes of matter , can excuse from a morall sacriledge , against the morall vertue of Religion which respects worship due to God : If I say , every least falshood be deadly sinne in the foresaid kind of Oath ; much more pernicious a sinne must it be in the publique person of the Catholique Church to propound untrue Articles of faith , thereby fastning Gods prime Verity to falshood , and inducing and obliging the world to doe the same . Besides , according to teh doctrine of all Divines , it is not only injurious to Gods Eternall Verity , to disbelieve things by him revealed , but also to propose as revealed truths , things not revealed : as in common wealths it is a haynous offence to coyne either by counterfeiting the metall or the stamp , or to apply the Kings seale to a writing counterfeit , although the contents were supposed to be true . And whereas , to shew the detestable sinne of such pernitious fictions , the Church doth most exemplarly punish all broachers of fained revelations , visions ; miracles , prophecies &c. as in particular appeareth in the Councell of h Lateran , excommunicating such persons ; if the Church her selfe could propose false revelations , she herselfe should have been the first , & chiefest deserver to have been censured , and as it were excommunicated by herselfe . For ( as the holy Ghost saith in i Iob ) doth God need your lye , that for him you may speak deceipts ? And that of the Apocalyps is most truly verified in fictitious revelations : If any k shall adde to these things , God will adde unto him the plagues which are written in this book : and D. Potter saith , to adde l to it ( speaking of the Creed ) is high presumption , almost as great as to detract from it . And therefore to say the Church may addefalse Revelations , is to accuse her of high presumption , and of pernitious errour excluding salvation . 10 Perhaps some will here reply that although the Church may erre , yet it is not imputed to her for sinne , by reason shee doth not erre upon malice , or wittingly , but by ignorance , or mistake . 11 But it is easily demonstrated that this excuse cannot serve . For if the Church be assisted only for points fundamentall , she cannot but know , that she may erre in points not fundamentall , at least she cannot be certain that she cannot erre , and therefore cannot be excused from headlong and pernitious temerity , in proposing points not fundamentall , to be believed by Christians ; as matters of faith , wherein she can have no certainty , yea which alwaies imply a falshood . For although the thing might chance to be true , and perhaps also revealed ; yet for the matter , she for her part , doth alwaies expose her selfe to danger of falshood and error ; and in fact doth alwaies erre in the ●anner in which she doth propound any matter not fundamentall ; because shee proposeth it as a point of faith certainly true , which yet is alwaies uncertain , if she in such things may be deceived . 12 Besides , if the Church may erre in points not fundamentall , she may erre in proposing some Scripture for Canonicall , which is not such : or else not erre in keeping and conserving from corruptions such Scriptures as are already believed to be Canonicall . For I will suppose , that in such Apocrypha●● Scripture as she delivers , there is no fundamentall error against faith , or that there is no falshood at all , but only want of divine testification : in which case D. Potter must either grant , that it is a fundamentall error , to apply divine revelation to any point not revealed , or else must yeeld , that the Church may erre in her Proposition , or Custody of the Canon of Scripture . And so we cannot be sure whether she have not been deceived already , in Bookes recommended by her , and accepted by Christians . And thus we shall have no certainty of Scripture , if the Church want certainty in all her definitions . And it is worthy to be observed , that some Bookes of Scripture which were not alwaies known to be Canonicall , have been afterward received for such ; but never any one book , or syllable defined by the Church to be Canonicall , was afterward questioned , or rejected for Apocryphall . A signe , that Gods Church is infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost , never to propose as divine truth , any thing not revealed by God : and that , O●ission to define points not sufficiently discussed is laudable , but Commission in propounding things not revealed , inexcusable ; into which precipitation our Saviour Christ never hath , nor never will permit his Church to fall . 13 Nay , to limit the generall promises of our Saviour Christ made to his Church to points only fundamentall , namely , that the gates m of hell shall not prevail against her : and that , the holy Ghost n shall lead her into all truth &c. is to destroy all faith . For we may by that doctrine , and manner of interpreting the Scripture , limit the Infallibility of the Apostles words , & preaching , only to Points fundamentall : and whatsoever generall Texts of Scripture shall be alleadged for their infallibility , they may , by D. Potter example be explicated , and restrained to points fundamentall . By the same reason it may be farther affirmed , that the Apostles , and other writers of Canonicall Scripture , were endued with infallibility , only in setting down points fundamentall . For if it be urged , that all Scripture is divinely inspired ; that it is the word of God &c. D. Potter hath afforded you a ready answer , to say , that Scripture is inspired &c. only in those parts , or parcels , wherein it delivereth fundamentall points . In this manner D. Fotherby saith : The Apostle o twice in one Chapter professed , that this he speaketh , and not the Lord , He is very well content that where he lacks the warrant of the expresse word of God , that part of his writings should be esteemed as the word of man. D. Potter also speaks very dangerously towards this purpose , Sect. 5. where he endeavoureth to prove , that the infallibility of the Church is limited to points fundamentall , because as Nature , so God is neither defective in p necessaries , nor lavish in supers●uities . Which reason doth likewise prove that the infallibility of Scripture , and of the Apostles must be restrained to points necessary to salvation , that so God be not accused , as defective in necessaries , or lavish in supers●uities . In the same place he hath a discourse much tending to this purpose , where speaking of these words : The Spirit shall lead you into all truth , and shall abide with q you for ever , he saith : Though that promise was r directly , and primarily made to the Apostles ( who had the Spirits guidance in a more high and absolute manner , then any since them ) yet it was made to themfor the behoof of the Church , and is verified in the Church Vniversall . But all truth is not simply all , but all of some kind . To be led into all truths , is to know , and believe them . And who is so simple as to be ignorant , that there are many millions of truths ( in Nature , History , Divinity ) whereof the Church is simply ignorant . How many truths lye unrevealea in the infinite treasury of Gods wisdome , wherewith the Church is not acquainted &c. so then , the truth it selfe enforceth us to understand by ( all truths ) not simply all , not all which God can possibly reveal , but all pertaining to the substance of faith , all truth absolutely necessary to salvation . Mark what he saith . That promise ( The spirit shall lead you into all truth , ) was made directly to the Apostles , and is verified in the universall Church , but by all truth is not understood simply all , but all apperraining to the substance of faith , and absolutely necessary to salvation . Doth it not hence follow , that the promise made to the Apostles of being led into all truth , is to be understood only of all truth absolutely necessary to salvation ? and consequently their preaching , and writing , were not infallible in points not fundamentall ? or if the Apostles were infallible in all things which they proposed as divine truth , the like must be affirmed of the Church , because D. Potter teacheth , the said promise to be verified in the Church . And as he limits the aforesaid words to points fundamentall ; so may he restrain , what other text soever that can be brought for the universall infallibility of the Apostles or Scriptures . So he may ; and so he must , least otherwise he receive this answer of his own from himselfe , How many truths lye unrevealed in the infinite treasurie of Gods wisdome , wherewith the Church is not acquainted ? And therefore to verify such generall sayings , they must be understood of truths absolutely necessary to Salvation . Are not these fearfull consequences ? And yet D. Potter will never be able to avoid them , till he come to acknowledge the infallibility of the Church in all points by her proposed as divine truths ; and thus it is universally true that she is lead into all truth , in regard that our Saviour never permits her to define , or teach any falshood . 14 All , that with any colour may be replied to this argument is ; That if once we call any one Book , or parcell of Scripture in question ; although for the matter it contain no fundamentall error , yet it is of great importance and fundamentall , by reason of the consequence ; because if once we doubt of one Book received for Canonicall , the whole canon is made doubtfull and uncertain , and therefore the infallibility of Scripture must be universall , and not confined within compasse of points fundamentall . 15 I answere : For the thing it selfe it is very true , that if I doubt of any one parcell of Scripture received for such , I may doubt of all : and thence by the same parity I inferre , that if we did doubt of the Churches infallibility in some points , we could not believe her in any one , and consequently not in propounding Canonicall Bookes , of any other points fundamentall , or not fundamentall ; which thing being most absurd , and withall most impious , we must take away the ground thereof , and believe that she cannot erre in any point great or small : and so this reply doth much more strengthen what we intend to prove . Yet I adde , that Protestants cannot make use of this reply with any good coherence to this their distinction , and some other doctrines which they defend . Por if D. Potter can tell what points in particular be fundamentall ( as in his 7. Sect. he pretendeth ) then he may be sure , that whensoever he meetes with such points in Scripture , in them it is infallibly true , although it might erre in others : and not only true but cleere , because Protestants teach , that in matters necessary to Salvation , the Scripture is so cleere , that all such necessary truths are either manifestly contained therein , or may be cleerely deduced from it , Which Doctrines being put together , to wit : That Scriptures cannot erre in points fundamentall ; that they cleerely containe all such points ; and that they can tell what points in particular be such , I mean fundamentall ; it is manifest , that it is sufficient for Salvation , that Scripture be infallible only in points fundamentall . For supposing these doctrines of theirs to be true , they may be sure to find in Scripture all points necessary to Salvation , although it were fallible in other points of lesse moment . Neyther will they be able to avoid this impiety against holy Scripture , till they renounce their other doctrines . and in particular , till they believe that Christs promise to his Church , are not limited to points fundamentall . 16 Besides , from the fallibility of Christs Catholique Church in some points , it followeth , that no true Protestant earned , or unlearned , doth or can with assurance believe the universall Church in any one point of doctrine . Not in points of lesser moment , which they call not fundamentall ; because they believe that in such points she may erre . Not in fundamentalls ; because they must know what points be fundamentall , before they goe to learn of her , least otherwise they be rather deluded , then instructed ; in regard that her certain , and infallible direction extends only to points fundamentall . Now , if before they addresse themselves to the Church , they must know what points are fundamentall , they learn not of her , but will be as fit to teach , as to be taught by her : How then are all Christians so often , so seriously , upon so dreadfull menaces , by Fathers , Scriptures , and our blessed Saviour himselfe , counselled and commanded to seeke , to hear , to obey the Church ? S. Austine was of a very different mind from Protestants : If ( saith he ) the s Church through the whole world practise any of these things , to dispute whether that ought to be so done , is a most insolent madnesse . And in another place he saith , That which t the whole Church holds , and is not ordained by Councels , but hath alwaies been kept , is most rightly believed to be delivered by Apostolicall authority . The same holy Father teacheth , that the custome of baptizing children cannot be proved by Scripture alone , and yet that it is to be believed , as derived from the Apostles . The custome of our Mother the u Church ( saith he ) in baptizing infants i● in no wise to be contemned , nor to be accounted superfluous , nor is it at all to be believed . unlesse it were an Apostolicall Tradition , And elsewhere . Christ w is of profit to Children baptized ; Is he therefore of profit to persons not believing ? But God forbid , that I should say infants doe not believe . I have already said , he believes in another , who finned in another . It is said , be believes , and it is of force , and he is reckoned among the faithfull that are baptized . This the authority of our Mother the Church hath ; against this strength , against this invincible wall whosoever rusheth shall be crushed in pieces . To this argument the Protestants in the Conference at Ratishon , gaue this round answer : Nos ab Augustino x hac in parte libere dissentimas . In this we plainly disagree from Augustine . Now if this doctrine of baptizing Infants be not fundamentall in D. Potters sense , then according to S. Augustine , the infallibility of the Church extends to points not fundamentall . But if on the other side it be a fundamentall point ; then according to the same holy Doctour , we must rely on the authority of the Church , for some fundamentall point , not contained in Scripture , but delivered by Tradition . The like argument I frame out of the same Father about the not rebaptizing of those who were baptized by Heretiques , whereof he excellently to our present purpose speaketh in this manner . Wee follow y indeed in this matter even the most certaine authority of Canonicall all Scriptures . But how ? Consider his words : Although verily there be brought no example for this point out of the Canonicall Scriptures , yet even in this point the truth of the same Scriptures is held by us , while we doe that , which the authority of Scriptures doth recommend , that so , because the holy Scripture cannot deceaue us , whosoever is afraid to be deceaved by the obscurity of this question , must haue recourse to the same Church concerning it , which without any ambiguity the holy Scripture doth demonstrate to us . Among many other points in the aforesaid words , we are to obserue , that according to this holy Father , when we prove some points not particularly contained in Scripture , by the authority of the Church , even in that case we ought not to be said to belieue such points without Scripture , because Scripture it selfe recommends the Church ; and therefore relying on her we relye on Scripture , without danger of being deceaved by the obscurity of any question defined by the Church . And elsewhere he faithi Seeing this is z written in no Scripture , we must belieue the testimony of the Church , which Christ declareth to speak the truth . But it seemes D. Potter is of opinion that this doctrine about not rebaptizing such as were baptized by Heretiques , is no necessary point of faith , nor the contrary an heresie : wherein he contradicteth S. Augustine , from whom we haue now heard , that what the Church teacheth , is truly said to be taught by Scripture ; and consequently to deny this particular point , delivered by the Church , is to oppose Scripture it selfe . Yet if he will needs hold , that this point is not fundamentall , we must conclude out of S. Augustine , ( as we did concerning the baptizing of Children ) that the infallibility of the Church reacheth to points not fundamentall . The same Father in another place , concerning this very question of the validity of Baptisme conferred by Heretiques , saith : The a Apostles indeed haue prescribed nothing of this , but this Custome ought to be believed to be originally taken from their tradition , as there are many things that the universall Church observeth which are therefore with good reason believed to haue been commanded by the Apostles , although they be not written . No lesse cleer is S. Chrysoslome for the infallibility of the Traditions of the Church . For treating these words ( 2. Thess. 2. Stand , & hold the Traditions which you haue learned whether by speech or by Epistle ) saith : Hence it is b manifest that they delivered not all things by letter , but many things also without writing , and these also are worthy of beliefe . Let us therefore account the tradition of the Church to be worthy of beliefe . It is a Tradition : Seek no more . Which words are so plainly against Protestants , that Whitaker is as plaine with S. Chrysostome , saying : I answer c that this is an inconsiderate speech , and unworthy so great a Father . But let us conclude with S. Augustine , that the Church cannot approue any errour against faith , or good manners . The Church ( saith he ) being d Placed between much chaffe and cockle , doth tollerate many things ; but yet she doth not approue , nor dissemble , nor doe those things which are against faith , or good life . 17 And as I haue proved that Protestants , according to their grounds , cannot yeeld infallibls assent to the Church in any one point : so by the same reason I prove , that they cannot rely upon Scripture it selfe in any one point of faith . Not in points of lesser moment ( or not fundamentall ) because in such points the Catholique Church , ( according to D. Potter ) and much more any Protestant may erre , and thinke it is contained in Scripture , when it is not . Not in points fundamentall , because they must first know what points be fundamentall , before they can bee assured . that they cannot erre in understanding the Scripture , and consequently independantly of Scripture , they must foreknow all fundamentall points of faith : and therefore they doe not indeed rely upon Scripture , either for fundamentall , or not fundamentall points . 18 Besides , I mainly urge D. Potter , and other Protestants , that they tell us of certain points which they call fundamentall , and we cannot wrest from them a list in particular of such points , without which no man can tell whether or no he erre in points fundamentall , and be capable of salvation . And which is most lamentable , insteed of giving us such a Catalogue , they fall to wrangle among themselves about the making of it . 19 Calvin holds the e Popes Primacy , Invocation of Saints , Free will , and such like , to bee fundamentall errours overthrowing the Gospell . Others are not of his minde , as Melancthou who saith , in f the opinion of himselfe , and other his Brethren , That the Monarchy of the Bishop of Rome is of use , or profit to this end , that Consent of Doctrine may be retained . An agreement therefore may easily be established in this Article of the Popes Primacy , if other Articles could be agreed upon . If the Popes Primacy be a meanes , that consent of Doctrine may be retained , first submit to it , and other articles will be easily agreed upon . Luther also saith of the Popes Primacy , it may be borne g withall . And why then , O Luther , did you not beare with it ? And how can you , and your followers be excused from damnable Schisme , who chose rather to devide Gods Church , then to beare with that , which you confesse may be borne withall ? But let us goe forward . That the doctrine of freewill , Prayer for the dead , worshipping of Images , Wo●ship and Invocation of Saints , Reall presence , Transubstantiation , Receaving under one kinde , Satisfaction , and Ment of works , and the Masse , be not fundamentall Errours , is taught ( respective ) by divers Protestants carefully alleaged in the Protestants h Apologie , &c. as namely by Perkins , Cartwright , Frith , Fulle , Spark , Goade , Luther , Reynolds , Whitaker , Tindall , Franci Iohnson , with others . Contrary to these , is the Confession of the Christian faith , so called by Protestants , which I mentioned i heretofore , wherein we are damned unto unquenchable fire , for the doctrine of Masse , Prayer to Saints , and for the dead , Freewill , Presence at Idol-service , Mans merit , with such like . Iustification by faith alone is by some Protestants affirmed to be the soule of the k Church : The only principall origen of l Salvation : of all other points of m doctrine the chiefest and weightiest . Which yet , as we haue seen , is contrary to other Protestants , who teach that me● of good works is not a fundamentall Errour ; yea , divers Protestants defend merit of good works , as may bee seen in n Breereley . One would think that the Kings Supremacy , for which some blessed men lost their lives was once among Protestants held for a Capitall point ; but now D. Andrewes late of Winchester in his book against Bellarmime tells us , that it is sufficient to reckon it among true Doctrines , And Wo●ton denies that Protestants o hold the Kings Supremacy to be an essentiall point of faith . O freedome of the new Gospell ! Hold with Catholiques , the Pope ; or with Protestants , the King ; or with Puritanes , neither Pope , nor King , to be Head of the Church , all is one , you may be saved . Some , as Castalio , p and the whole Sect of the Academicall Protestants , hold , that doctrines about the Supper , Baptisme , the state and office of Christ , how he is one with his Father , the Trinity , Predestination , and divers other such questions are not necessary to Salvation . And ( that you may observe how ungrounded , and partiall their Assertions be ) Perkins teacheth , that the Reall presence of our Saviours Body in the Sacrament , as it is believed by Catholiques , is a fundamentall errour ; and yet affirmeth the Consubstantiation of Lutherans not to be such , notwithstanding that divers chiefe Lutherans , to their Consubstantiation joyne the prodigious Heresie of Vbiquitation . D. Vsher in his Sermon of the Vnity of the Catholique faith , grants Salvation to the Aethiopians , who yet with Christian Baptisme joyne Circumcision . D. Potter q cites the doctrine of some , whom he termeth men of great learning and judgement : that , all who professe to loue and honour IES VS CHRIST are in the visible Christian Church , and by Catholiques to be reputed Brethren . One of these men of great learning and judgement , is Thomas Morton , by D. Potter cited in his Margent , whose love and honour to Iesus-Christ , you may perceive , by his saying , that the Churches of Arians ( who denied our Saviour Christ to be God ) are to be accounted the Church of God , b●cause they doe hold the foundation of the Gospell , which is Faith in Iesus-Christ the Sonne of God , and Saviour of the world . And , which is more , it seemeth by these charitable men , that for being a member of the Church it is not necessary to believe one only God. For D. Potter r among the arguments to proue Hookers and Mortons opinion , brings this : The people of the ten Tribes after their defection , notwithstanding their grosse corruptions , & Idolatry , remained still a true Church . We may also , as it seemeth by these mens reasoning , deny the Resurrection , and yet be members of the true Chruch . For a learned man ( saith D. Potter s in behalfe of Hookers , and Mortons opinion ) was anciently made a Bishop of the Catholique Church , though he did professedly doubt of the last Resurre●tion of our bodies . Deere Saviour ! What times doe we behold ? If one may be a member of the true Church , and yet deny the Trinity of the Persons , the Godhead of our Saviour , the necessity of Baptisme , if we may use Circumcision , and with the worship of God joyne Idolatry , wherein doe we differ from Turks , and Iews ? or rather are we not worse , then eyther of them ? If they who deny our Saviours divinity might be accounted the Church of God , how will they deny that favour to those ancient Heretiques , who denied our Saviours true humanity ? and so the totall deniall of Christ will not exclude one from being a member of the true Church . S. Hilary t maketh it of equall necessity for Salvation , that we believe our Saviour to be true God , and true Man , saying : This manner of Confession we are to hold , that we remember him to be the Sonne of God , and the Sonne of Man , because the one without the other , can giue no hope of Salvatio● . And yet D. Potter saith of the aforesaid doctrine of Hooker and Morton : The u Reader may be pleased to approue , or reject it , as he shall finde cause . And in another place w he sheweth so much good liking of this doctrine , that he explicateth and proveth the Churches perpetuall Visibility by it . And in the second Edition of his book , he is carefull to declare , and illustrate it more at large , then he had done before : howsoever , this sufficiently sheweth , that they haue no certainty , what points be fundamentall . As for the Arians in particular , the Author whom D. Potter cites for a moderate Catholique , but ●s indeed a plain Heretique , or rather Atheist , Lucian like jesting at all Religion , x placeth Arianisme among fundamentall Errours : But contrarily an English Protestant Divine masked under the name of Irenaeus Philalethes , in a little Book in Latine intituled , Dissertatio de pace & concordia Ecclesiae , endeavoureth to proue , that even the deniall of the blessed Trinity may stand with salvation . Divers Protestants haue taught , that the Roman Church , erreth in fundamentall points , But D. Potter , and others teach the contrary , which could not happen if they could agree what be fundamentall points . You brand the Donatists with the note of an Errour , in the matter y and the nature of it properly hereticall ; because they taught that the Church remained only with them , in the part of Donat●● , And yet many Protestants are so farre from holding that Doctrine to be a fundamentall errour , that themselves goe further , and say ; that for divers ages before Luther there was no ●rue Visible Church at all . It is then too too apparent , that you haue no agreement in specifying , what be fundamentall points ; neither haue you any meanes to determine what they be ; for if you have any such meanes , why doe you not agree ? You tell us , the Creed containes all points fundamentall● which although it were true , yet you see it serves not to bring you to a particular knowledge , & agreement in such points . And no wonder . For ( besides what I haue said already in the begining of this Chapter , and am to deliver more at large in the next ) after so much labour and spent paper to prove that the Creed containes all fundamentall points , you conclude : It remaines a very probable , that the Creed is the perfect Summary of those fundamentall truths , whereof consists the V●●ty of faith , and of the Catholique Church . Very probable ? Then , according to all good Logick , the contrary may remain very probable , and so all remain as full of uncertainty , as before . The whole Rule , say you , & the sole Iudge of your faith , must be Scripture . Scripture doth indeed deliver divine Truths , but seldome doth qualify them , or declare whether they be , or be not , absolutely necessary to salvation . You fall b heavy upon Charity Mistaken , because he demands a particular Catalogue of fundamentall points , which yet you are obliged in conscience to doe , if you be able . For without such a Catalogue , no man can be assured whether or no , he haue faith sufficient to Salvation . And therefore take it not in ill part , if we againe and againe demand such a Catalogue . And that you may see we proceed fairely , I will performe , on our behalfe , what we request of you , and doe here deliver a Catalogue , wherein are comprized all points by us taught to be necessary to Salvation , in these words . We are obliged , under paine of damnation , to believe whatsoever the Catholique visible Church of Christ proposeth , as revealed by Almighty God. If any be of another minde , all Catholiques denounce him to be no Catholique . But enough of this . And I go forward with the Infallibility of the Church in all points . 20 For , euen out of your own doctrine , that the Church cannot erre in points necessary to salvation , any wise man will inferre , that it behoves all , who haue care of their soules , not to forsake her in any one point . 1. Because they are assured , that although her doctrine proved not to be true in some point , yet even according to D. Potter , the errour cannot be fundamentall , nor destructiue of faith , and salvation : neither can they be accused of any least imprudence in erring ( if it were possible ) with the universall Church . Secondly , since she is , under paine of eternall damnation , to be believed , and obeyed in some things , wherein confessedly she is endued with infallibilitie ; I cannot in wisedome suspect her credit in matters of lesse moment . For who would trust another in matters of highest consequence , and be affraid to rely on him in things of lesse moment ? Thirdly , since ( as I said ) we are undoubtedly obliged not to forsake her in the chiefest , or fundamentall points , and that there is no Rule to know precisely what , and how many those fundamentall points be ; I cannot without hazard of my soule , leaue her in any one point , least perhaps that point , or points wherein I forsake her , proue indeed to be fundamentall , and necessary to salvation . Fourthly , that visible Church which cannot erre in points fundamentall , doth without distinction propound all her Definitions concerning matters of faith to be believed under Anathema's or Curses , esteeming all those who resist , to be deservedly cast out of her Communion , and holding it a point necessary to salvation , that we believe she cannot erre : wherein if she speak true , then to deny any one point in particular , which she defineth , or to affirm in generall , that she may erre , puts a man into state of damnation . Whereas to belieue her in such points as are not necessary to salvation , cannot endanger salvation ; and likewise to remain in her Communion , can bring no great harme , because she cannot maintain any damnable errour , or practise : but to be divided from her ( she being Christs Catholique Church ) is most certainly damnable . Fifthly , the true Church , being in lawfull , and certain possession of Superiority and Power , to command and require Obedience , from all Christians in some things ; I cannot without grievous sinne withdraw my obedience in any one , unlesse I evidently know , that the thing commanded comes not within the compasse of those things to which her Power extendeth . And who can better inform me , how far God's Church can proceed , then Gods Church her selfe ? Or to what Doctour can the Children and Schollers , with greater reason , and more security , fly for direction , then to the Mother , and appointed Teacher of all Christians ? In following her , I shall sooner be excused , then incleaving to any particular S●ct , or Person , teaching , or applying Scriptures against her doctrine , or interpretation . Sixtly , the fearfull examples of innumerable persons who forsaking the Church upon pretence of her errors , haue failed , even in fundamentall points , and suffered shipwrack of their Salvation , ought to deter all Christians , from opposing her in any one doctrine , or practises as ( to omit other , both ancient and modern heresies ) we see that divers chiefe Protestants , pretending to reform the corruptions of the Church , are come to affirm , that for many Ages she erred to death , and wholy perished ; which D. Potter , cannot deny to be a fundamentall Errour against that Article of our Creed , I believe the Catholique Church , as he a●●irmeth it of the Donatists , because they confined the universall Church within Africa , or some other smal tract of soile . Least therefore I may fall into some fundamentall errour , it is most safe for me to belieue all the Decrees of that Church , which cannot err● fundamentally : especially if we adde ; That according to the Doctrine of Catholique Divines , one errour in faith , whether it be for the matter it selfe , great or small , d●stroies faith , as is shewed in Charity Mistaken ; and consequently to accuse the Church of any one Errour , is to affirm , that she lost all faith , and erred damnably : which very saying is damnable , because it leaues Christ no visible Church on earth . 21 To all these arguments I adde this demonstration : D. Potter teacheth , that there neither ●as c nor can be any iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ , no more then from Christ himselfe , But if the Church of Christ can erre in some points of faith , men not only may , but must forsake her in those , ( unlesse D. Potter will haue them to believe one thing , and professe another : ) and if such errours , and corruptions should fall out to be about the Churches Liturgy , publique Service , administration of Sacraments , and the like ; they who perceive such errours , must of necessity leaue her externall Communion . And therefore if once we grant the Church may erre , i● followeth that men may , and ought to forsake her ( which is against D. Potters own words , ) or else they are inexcusable who left the Communion of the Roman Church , under pretence of Errours , which they grant , not to be fundumentall . And if D. Potter ▪ think good to answer this argument , he must remember his own doctrine to be , that even the Catholique Church may erre in points not fundamentall . 22 Another argument for the universall Infallibility of the Church , I take out of D. Potters own words . If ( saith he ) we d did not dissent in some opinions from the present Roman Church , we could not agree with the Church truly Catholique . These words cannot be true , unlesse he presuppose that the Church truly Catholique , cannot erre in points not fundamentall . For if she may erre in such points , the Roman Church which he affirmeth to erre only in points not fundamentall , may agree with the Church truly Catholique , if she likewise may erre in points not fundamentall . Therefore either he must acknowledge a plain contradiction in his own words , or else must grant that the Church truly Catholique cannot erre in points not fundamentall , which is what we intended to proue . 23 If Words cannot perswade you , that in all Controversies you must rely upon the infallibility of the Church ; at least yeeld your assent to Deeds . Hitherto I haue produced Arguments drawn , as it were , ex naturâ rei , from the Wisdome , and Goodnesse of God , who cannot faile to haue left some infallible meanes to determine Controversies , which , as we haue proved , can be no other , except a Visible Church , infallible in all her Definitions . But because both Catholiques and Protestants , receive holy Scripture , we may thence also proue the infallibility of the Church in all matters which concern Faith and Religion . Our Saviour speaketh clearly : The gates of Hell e shall not prevail against her . And ; I will aske my f Father , and he will giue you another Paraclete , that he may abide with you for ever , the Spirit of truth . And , But when he , the Spirit of g truth commeth , he shall teach you all truth . The Apostle saith , that the Church is the Pillar , and ground h of Truth . And , He gaue some Apostles , and some Prophets , and other some Evangelists , and other some Pastors and Doctors , to the consummation of the Saints , unto the work of the Ministery , unto the edifying of the body of Christ : untill we meet all into the unity of faith , and knowle●ge of the Sonne of God , into a perfect man , into the measure of the age of the ●ulnesse of Christ : that now we be not Children wavering , and carried about with every winde of doctrine in the wickednesse of men , in craftinesse , to the circumvention i of Errour . All which words seem cleerly enough to proue , that the Church is universally infallible , without which , unity of faith could not be conserved against every winde of Doctrine : And yet Doctor Potter k limits these promises and priviledges to fundamentall points , in which he grants the Church cannot erre . I urge the words of Scripture , which are universall , and doe not mention any such restraint . I alleadge that most reasonable , and receaved Rule , that Scripture is to be understood literally , as it soundeth , unlesse some manifest absurdity force us to the contrary . But all will not serue , to accord our different interpretations . In the mean time divers of Doctor Potters Brethren step in , and reject his limitation , as over large , and somewhat tasting of Papistry : And therefore they restrain the mentioned Texts , either to the Infallibility which the Apostles , and other sacred Writers had in penning of Scripture : or else to the invisible Church of the Elect ; and to them , not absolutely , but with a double restriction , that they shall not fall damnably , and finally ; and other men haue as much right as these , to interpose their opinion , and interpretation . Behold we are three at debate about the selfe same words of Scripture : We conferre divers places and Text : We consult the Originalls : We examine Translations . We endeavour to pray heartily : We professe to speak sincerely ; To seek nothing but truth and salvation of our own soules , and that of our Neighbours ; and finally we use all those meanes , which by Protestants themselues are prescribed for finding out the true meaning of Scripture : Neverthelesse we neither doe , or haue any possible meanes to agree , as long as we are left to our selues ; and when we should chance to be agreed , the doubt would still remain whether the thing it selfe be a fundamentall point or no : And yet it were great impiety to imagine that God , the Lover of soules , hath left no certaine infallible meanes ; to decide both this , and all other differences arising about the interpretation of Scripture , or upon any other occasion . Our remedy therefore in these contentions must be , to consult , and heare God's Visible Church , with submissiue acknowledgment of her Power , and Infallibility in whatsoever she proposeth as a revealed truth : according to that divine advice of S. Augustine in these words . If at length l thou seem to be sufficiently tossed ▪ and hast a desire to put an end to thy paines , follow the way of the Catholique Discipline , which from Christ himselfe by the Apostles hath come down even to us , and from us shall descend to all posterity . And though I conceave that the distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall hath now been sufficiently confuted ; yet that no shadow of difficulty may remain , I will particularly refell a common saying of Protestants , that it is sufficient foe salvation , to belieue the Apostles Creed , which they hold to be a Summary of all fundamentall points of Faith. THE ANSVVER TO THE THIRD CHAPTER . Wherein it is maintained , That the distinction of points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall , is in this present Controversie good and pertinent : And that the Catholique Church may erre in the latter kinde of the said points . THis distinction is imployed by Protestants to many purposes , and therefore if it be pertinent and good , ( as they understand and apply it ) the whole edifice built thereon , must be either firme and stable , or if it be not , it cannot be for any default in this distinction . 2 If you obiect to them discords in matter of faith without any meanes of agreement , They will answer you , that they want not good and solid meanes of agreement in matters necessary to salvation , viz. Their beliefe of all those things which are plainly and undoubtedly delivered in Scripture ; which who so belieues , must of necessity belieue all things necessary to salvation : and their mutuall suffering one another , to abound in their severall sense , in matters not plainly and undoubtedly there delivered . And for their agreement in all Controversies of Religion , either they haue meanes to agree about them , or not : If you say they haue , why did you before deny it ? If they haue not meanes ; why doe you finde fault with them , for not agreeing ? 3 You will say , that their fault is , that by remaining Protestants they exclude themselues from the meanes of agreement , which you haue , and which by submission to your Church they might haue also . But if you haue meanes of agreement , the more shame for you that you still disagree . For who , I pray , is more inexcusably guilty , for the omission of any duty ; they that either haue no meanes to doe it , or else know of none they haue , which puts them in the same case as if they had none : or they which professe to haue an easie and expedite means to doe it , and yet still leaue it undone ? If you had been blind ( saith our Saviour to the Pharisees ) you had had no sinne , but now you say you see ▪ therefore your sinne remaineth . 4 If you say , you doe agree in matters of Faith , I say this is ridiculous : for you define matters of faith to be those wherein you agree . So that to say , you agree in matters of faith , is to say , you agree in those things wherein you doe agree . And do not Protestants doe so likewise ? Doe not they agree in those things , wherein they doe agree ? 5 But you are all agreed that only those things wherein you doe agree are matters of faith . And Protestants if they were wise , would doe so too . Sure I am they haue reason enough to doe so : seeing all of them agree with explicite faith in all those things , which are plainly and undoubtedly delivered in Scripture , that is , in all which God hath plainly revealed : and with an implicite faith , in that sense of the whole Scripture which God intended whatsoever it was . Secondly , That which you pretend is false ; for else , why doe some of you hold it against faith , to take or allow the Oath of Allegiance , others as learned and honest as they , that it is against Faith and unlawfull to refuse it and allow the refusing of it ? Why doe some of you hold , that it is de Fide , that the Pope is Head of the Church by divine Law , others the contrary ? Some hold it de Fide , that the blessed Virgin was freefrom Actuall sinne , others that it is not so . Some , that the Popes Indirect power over Princes in Temporalties is de Fide , Others the contrary . Some , that it is Vniversall Tradition , and consequently de Fide , that the Virgin Mary was conceived in originall sinne , others the contrary . 6 But what shall we say now , if you be not agreed touching your pretended meanes of agreement , how then can you pretend to Vnity either Actuall or Potentiall more then Protestants may ? Some of you say , the Pope alone without a Councell may determine all Controversies : But others deny it . Some , that a Generall Councell without a Pope may doe so : Others deny this . Some , Both in conjunction are infallible determiners : Others againe deny this . Lastly , some among you , hold the Acceptation of the decrees of Councells by the Vniversal Church to be the only way to decide Controversies : which others deny , by denying the Church to be Infallible . And indeed what way of ending Controversies can this be , when either part may pretend , that they are part of the Church , and they receiue not the decree , therefore the whole Church hath not received it ? 7 Againe , Meanes of agreeing differences are either Rationall and well grounded and of Gods appointment , or voluntary and taken up at the pleasure of men . Meanes of the former nature , we say , you haue as little as we . For where hath God appointed , that the Pope , or a Councell , or a Councell confirm'd by the Pope , or that Society of Christians which adhere to him , shall be the Infallible Iudge of Controversies . I desire you to shew any one of these Assertions plainely set down in Scripture , ( as in all Reason a thing of this nature should be ) or at least delivered with a full consent of Fathers , or at least taught in plain tearmes by any one Father for foure hundred yeares after Christ. And if you cannot doe this ( as I am sure you cannot ) and yet will still be obtruding your selues upō us for our Iudges , who will not cry out , — perisse frontem de rebus ? 8 But then for meanes of the other kinde , such as yours are , we haue great abūdance of them . For besides all the waies which you haue devised , which we may make use of when wee please , we haue a great many more , which you yet haue never thought of , for which we haue as good colour out of Scripture as you haue for yours . For first , wee could if we would , try it by Lots , whose doctrine is true , and whose false . And you know it is written , a The Lot is cast into the lap , but the whole disposition of it is from the Lord. 2. We could referre them to the King , and you know it is written : b A Divine sentence is in the lips of the King his mouth transgresseth not in judgement . c The Heart of the King is in the hand of the Lord. We could referre the matter to any assembly of Christians assembled in the the name of Christ , seeing it is written , d where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them . We may referre it to any Priest , because it is written , e The Priests lips shall preserve knowledg . f The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moses chaire &c. To any Preacher of the Gospell , to any Pastor , or Doctor , for to every one of them Christ hath promised g he will be with them alwaies even to the end of the world : & of every one of them it is said , h He that heareth you heareth me : &c. To any Bishop or Prelate , for it is written , i Obey your Prelates , and againe k he hath given Pastors and Doctors , &c. least we should be carried about with every wind of doctrine . To any particular Church of Christians , seeing it is a particular Church which is called l The house of God , a Pillar & ground of Truth : and seeing of any Particular Church it is written m He that heareth not the Church let him be unto thee as a Heathen or a Public●d . We might referre it to any man that prayes for Gods spirit , for it is written , n Every one that asketh receiveth : and again , o If any man want wisdome let him aske of God , who giveth to all men liberally , and upbraideth not . Lastly , we might referre it to the Iewes , for without all doubt of them it is written , p my spirit that is in thee &c. All these meanes of agreement , whereof not any one but hath as much probability from Scripture , as that which you obtrude upon us , offer themselves upon a suddain to me : happily many more might be thought on , if we had time , but these are enough to shew , that would we make use of voluntary and devised meanes to determine differences , we had them in great abundance . And if you say these would faile us , and contradict themselves ; so , as we pretend , have yours . There have been Popes against Popes : Councells against Councells : Councells confirmed by Popes , against Councells confirmed by Popes : Lastly the Church of some Ages against the Church of other Ages . 9 Lastly , whereas you find fault , That Protestants upbraided with their discords , answer that they differ only in points not Fundamentall , I desire you tell me whether they doe so , or doe not so ; If they doe so , I hope you will not find fault with the Answer : If you say they doe not so , but in points Fundamentall also ; then they are not members of the same Church one with another , no more then with you : And therefore why should you object to any of them , their differences from each other , any more then to your selves , their more and greater differences from you ? 10 But they are convinc'd sometimes even by their own confessions , that the Ancient Fathers taught divers points of Popery : and then they reply , those Fathers may neverthelesse be saved , because those errors were not Fundamentall . And may not you also be convinc'd by the confessions of your own men , that the Fathers taught divers points held by Protestants against the Church of Rome , and divers against Protestants and the Church of Rome ? Doe not your Purging Indexes , clip the tongues , and seal up the lips of a great many for such confessions ? And is not the above cited confession of your Doway Divines , plain and full to the same purpose ? And doe not you also , as freely as we , charge the Fathers with errors , & yet say they were saved ? Now what else doe we understand by an unfundamentall error , but such a one with which a man may possibly be saved ? So that still you proceed in condemning others for your own faults , and urging arguments against us , which returne more strongly upon your selves . 11 But your will is , we should remember that Christ must alwaies have a visible Church . Ans. Your pleasure shall be obeyed , on condition you will not forget , that there is a difference between perpetuall Visibility , and perpetuall Purity . As for the answere , which you make for us , true it is , we believe the Catholique Church cannot perish , yet that she may , and did erre in points not Fundamentall ; and that Protestants were oblig'd to forsake these errors of the Church , as they did , though not the Church for her errors , for that they did not , but continued still members of the Church . For it is not all one ( though you perpetually confound them ) to forsake the errors of the Church , and to forsake the Church : or to forsake the Church in her Errors , and simply to forsake the Church : No more then it is for me to renounce my Brothers or my Friends Vices or Errors , and to renounce my Brother or my Friend . The Former then was done by Protestants , the latter was not done . Nay not only not from the Catholique , but not so much as from the Roman , did they seperate per omnia , but only in those practises which they conceived superstitious or impious . If you would at this time propose a forme of Liturgy , which both Sides hold lawfull , and then they would not joyne with you in this Liturgy , you might have some colour then to say , they renounce your communion absolutely . But as things are now ordered , they cannot joyne with you in prayers , but they must partake with you in unlawfull practises , and for this reason , they ( not absolutely , but thus farre ) separate from your communion . And this , I say , they were obliged to doe under pain of damnation . Not as if it were damnable to hold an error not damnable , but because it is damnable outwardly to professe & maintaine it , and to joyn with others in the practise of it , when inwardly they did not hold it . Now had they continued in your communion , that they must have done , vid. have professed to believe and externally practis'd your Errors , whereof they were convinced that they were Errors : which , though the matters of the Errors had been not necessary , but only profitable , whether it had not been damnable dissimulation and hypocrisy , I leave it to you to judge . You your selfe tell us within two pages after this , that you are obliged never to speak any one least lye against your knowledge , § . 2. now what is this but to live in a perpetuall lye ? 12 As for that which in the next place you seeme so to wonder at , That both Catholiques and Protestants , according to the opinion of Protestants , may bee saved in their severall professions , because forsooth , we both agree in all Fundamentall points : I Anwere , this proposition so crudely set down , as you have here set it down , I know no Protestant will justify . For you seeme to make them teach , that it is an indifferent thing , for the attainment of salvation , whether a man believe the Truth or the Falshood ; and that they care not in whether of these Religions a man live or dye , so he dye in either of them : whereas all that they say is this , That those amongst you which want meanes to find the Truth and so dye in error , or use the best meanes they can with industry , and without partiality to find the truth , and yet dye in error , these men , thus qualified , notwithstanding these errors may be saved . Secondly for those that have meanes to find the Truth , and will not use them , they conceive , though their case be dangerous , yet if they dye with a generall repentance for all their sinnes , knowne and unknowne , their Salvation is not desperate . The Truths which they hold , of Faith in Christ , and Repentance , being as it were an antidote against their errors , and their negligence in seeking the Truth . Especially seeing by confession of both sides we agree in much more thē is simply , & indispēsably necessary to salvatiō . 13 But seeing we make such various use of this distinction , is it not prodigiously strange that we will never be induc'd to give in a particular Catalogue what points be fundamentall ? And why I pray is it so prodigiously strange that we give no answer to an unreasonable demand ? God himself hath told us , a That where much is given , much shall be required ; where litle is given , litle shall be required . To Infants , Deafe-men , Mad-men , nothing for ought wee knowe , is given , and if it bee so , of them nothing shall be required . Others perhaps may have meanes only given them to beleive , b That God is , and that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him ; and to whom thus much only is given , to them it shall not be damnable , that they beleive but only thus much . Which methinks is very manifest from the Apostle , in the Epist. to the Heb : where having first said , that without faith it is impossible to please God , he subjoynes as his reason , for whosoever commeth unto God , must beleive that God is , and that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him . Where in my opinion , this is plainly intimated , that this is the minimum quòd sic , the lowest degree of Faith , wherewith , in men capable of Faith , God will be pleased : and that with this lowest degree he will be pleased , where meanes of rising higher are deficient . Besides , if without this beliefe , that God is , and that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him , God will not be pleased , then his will is that we should beleive it . Now his will it cannot be , that we should beleive a falshood , It must be therefore true , that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him . Now it is possible that they which never heard of Christ , may seek God , therefore it is true that even they shall please him , and be rewarded by him ; I say rewarded , not with bringing them immediatly to salvation without Christ , but with bringing them according to his good pleasure , first , to faith in Christ , and so to salvation . To which beleife the story of Cornelius in the 10. chap. of the Acts of the Apostles , and S. Peter's words to him , are to me a great inducement . For first it is evident he beleeved not in Christ , but was a meer Gentile , & one that knew not but men might be worshipped , and yet we are assured that his prayers and almes ( even while he was in that state ) came up for a memoriall before God ; That his prayer was heard , and his Almes had in remembrance in the sight of God. v. 4. that upon his , Then fearing God and working righteousnesse , ( such as it was ) he was accepted with God. But how accepted ? Not to be brought immediatly to salvation , but to be promoted to a higher degree of the knowledge of Gods will : For so it is in the 4. & 5. v. Call for Simon whose sirname is Peter , he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to doe , and at the 33. vers . We are all here present before God , to heare all things that are cōmanded thee of God. So that though even in his Gentilisme , he was accepted in his present state , yet if he had continued in it , & refused to beleive in Christ after the sufficient revelation of the Gospell to him , and Gods will to have him beleive it , he that was accepted before , would not have continued accepted still ; for then that condemnation had come upon him , that light was come unto him , and he loved darknesse more then light . So that ( to proceed a step farther ) to whom faith in Christ is sufficiently propounded , as necessary to Salvation , to them it is simply necessary & Fundamentall to believe in Christ , that is , to expect remission of sinnes and Salvation from him , upon the performance of the conditions he requires ; among which conditions one is , that we believe what he has revealed , when it is sufficiently declared , to have been revealed by him : For by doing so , we set to our seale , that God is true , and that Christ was sent by him . Now that may be sufficiētly declared to one ( all things considered , ) which , ( all things considered ) to another is not sufficiently declared : and consequently that may be Fundamentall and necessary to one , which to another is not so . Which variety of circumstances , makes it impossible to set down an exact Catalogue of Fundamentalls , and proves your request as reasonable , as if you should desire us ( according to the Fable ) to make a coat to fit the Moon in all her changes ; or to giue you a garment that will fit all statures ; Or to make you a dyall to serve all meridians ; or to designe particularly , what provision will serve an army for a year : whereas there may be an army of ten thousand , there may be of 100000. And therefore without seting downe a catalogue of Fundamentalls in particular ( because none that can be given , can universally serve for all men , God requiring more of them to whom he gives more , and lesse of them to whom he gives lesse ) we must content our selves by a generall description to tell you what is Fundamentall . And to warrant us in doing so , we have your own example § . 19. where being engaged to giue us a catalogue of Fundamentalls , in stead thereof you tell us only in generall , that all is fundamentall , and not to be disbeleeved under pain of damnation , which the Church hath defin'd . As you therefore think it enough to say in generall , that all is Fundamentall which the Church has defined , without setting down in particular a compleat-Catalogue of all things , which in any age the Church has defined ( which I believe you will not undertake to doe , and if you doe , it will be contradicted by your Fellowes : ) So in reason you might think it enough for us also to say in generall , that it is sufficient for any mans salvation , to believe that the Scripture is true , and containes all things necessary for salvation ; and to doe his best endeavour to find and believe the true sense of it : without delivering any particular catalogue of the Fundamentalls of Faith. 14 Neither doth the want of such a catalogue leave us in such a perplexed uncertainty as you pretend . For though perhaps we cannot exactly distinguish in the Scripture , what is revealed because it is necessary , from what is necessary consequently and accidentally , meerely because it is revealed : yet we are sure enough , that all that is necessary any way is there , and therefore in believing all that is there , we are sure to believe all that is necessary . And if we erre from the true and intended sense of some , nay of many obscure or ambiguous texts of Scripture , yet we may be sure enough , that we erre not damnably : because , if we doe indeed desire and endeavour to finde the Truth , we may be sure we doe so , and as sure that it cannot consist with the revealed goodnesse of God , to damne him for error , that desires and indeavours to find the Truth . 15 Ad § . 2. The effect of this Paragraph ( for as much as concernes us ) is this , that for any man to deny belief to any one thing be it great or small known by him , to be revealed by almighty God for a truth , is in effect to charge God with falshood : for it is to say that God affirmes that to be Truth , which he either knowes to be not a Truth , or which he doth not know to be a Truth : and therefore without all controversy this is a damnable sinne . To this I subscribe with hand and heart : adding withall , that not only he which knowes , but he which believes ( nay though it be erroneously ) any thing to be revealed by God , and yet will not believe it , nor assent unto it , is in the same case , and commits the same sinne of derogation from Gods most perfect and pure Veracity . 16 Ad § . 3. I said purposely ( known by himselfe , and belieues himselfe ) For as , without any disparagement of a mans honesty , I may believe something to be false , which he affirmes , of his certain knowledge to be true , provided I neither know nor believe that he has so affirmed : So without any the least dishonour to Gods eternall never-failing veracity , I may doubt of , or deny some truth revealed by him , if I neither know nor believe it to be revealed by him . 17 Seeing therefore the crime of calling Gods veracity into question , and consequently ( according to your grounds ) of erring Fundamentally , is chargeable upon those only , that believe the contrary of any one point known ( not by others but themselves ) to be testified by God : I cannot but fear ( though I hope otherwise ) that your heart condemned you of a great calumny and egregious sophistry , in imputing fundamentall , and damnable error to disagreeing Protestans ; Because forsooth , some of them disbelieve , and directly wittingly and willingly oppose , what others doe believe to be testified by the word of God. The sophistry of your discourse will be apparent , if it be contrived into a syllogisme : Thus therefore in effect you argue ; Whosoever disbelieves any thing known by himselfe to be revealed by God , imputes falshood to God , and therefore errs fundamentally . But Some Protestants disbelieve these things , which Others believe to be testified by God ; Therefore they impute falshood to God , and erre Fundamentally . Neither can you with any colour pretend , that in these words known to be testified by God , you meant , not by himselfe , but by any other ; Seeing he only in fact affirmes , that God does deceive or is deceived , who denyes some things which himselfe knowes or believes to be revealed by God , as before I have demonstrated . For otherwise if I should deny beleefe to some which God had revealed secretly to such a man as I had never heard of , I should be guilty of calling Gods veracity into Question , which is euidently false . Besides , how can it be avoided , but the Iesuits and Dominicans , the Dominicans and Franciscans must upon this ground differ Fundamentally , and one of them erre damnably , seeing the one of them disbelieves ; and willingly opposes , what the others believe to be the word of God ? 18 Whereas you say that the difference among Protestants consists not in this , that some believe some points of which others are ignorant , or not bound expresly to know : I would gladly know , whether you speak of Protestants differing in profession only , or in opinion also . If the first , why doe you say presently after , that some disbelieve , what others of them believe ? If they differ in opinion , then sure they are ignorant of the truth of each other's opinions : it being impossible and contradictious , that a man should know one thing to be true , and believe the contrary , or know it and not believe it . And if they doe not know the truth of each others opinions , then , I hope , you will grant they are ignorant of it . If your meaning were , they were not ignorant , that each other held these Opinions , or of the sense of the opinions which they held : I Answere , this is nothing to the convincing of their understandings of the truth of them , and these remaining unconvinced of the truth of them , they are excusable if they doe not believe . 9 But ignorance of what we are expresly bound to know , is it selfe a fault , and therefore cannot be an excuse : and therefore if you could shew the Protestants differ in those points , the truth whereof ( which can be but one ) they were bound expresly to know , I should easily yeeld that one side must of necessity be in a mortall crime . But for want of proofe of this , you content your selfe only to say it ; and therefore I also might be contented only to deny it , yet I will not , but give a reason for my deniall . And my reason is , because our obligation expresly to know any divine Truth , must arise from Gods manifest revealing of it , and his revealing unto us that he has revealed it , and that his will is , we should believe it : Now in the points controverted among Protestants , he hath not so dealt with us , therefore he hath not laid any such obligation upon us . The major of this syllogisme is evident , and therefore I will not stand to prove it . The minor also will be evident to him that considers , that in all the Controversies of Protestants , there is a seeming conflict of Scripture with Scripture , Reason with Reason , Authority with Authority : which how it can consist with the manifest revealing of the truth of either Side , I cannot well understand . Besides , though we grant that Scripture , Reason , and Authority , were all on one side , and the apparences of the other side all answerable : yet if we consider the strange power that education and prejudices instilled by it , haue over even excellent understandings , wee may well imagine , that many truths which in themselues are revealed plainly enough , are yet to such or such a man , prepossest with contrary opinions , not revealed plainly . Neither doubt I but God , who knows whereof we are made , and what passions we are subject unto , will compassionate such infirmities , and not enter into judgement with us for those things , which , all things considered , were unavoidable . 20 But till Fundamentalls ( say you ) be sufficiently proposed ( as revealed by God ) it is not against Faith to reject them ; or rather it is not possible prudently to belieue them : And points unfundamentall being thus sufficiently proposed as divine Truths , may not be denied ; Therefore you conclude there is no difference between them : Ans. A Circumstantiall point , may by accident become Fundamentall , because it may bee so proposed that the deniall of it , will draw after it the deniall of this Fundamentall truth , that all which God saies is true . Notwithstanding in themselues there is a main difference between them : Points fundamentall being those onely which are revealed by God , and commanded to bee preacht to all , and believed by all . Points circumstantiall being such , as though God hath revealed them , yet the Pastors of the Church are not bound under paine of damnation particularly to teach them unto all men every where , and the people may be securely ignorant of them . 21 You say , Not erring in points Fundamentall , is not sufficient for the preservation of the Church ; because any Errour maintained by it against Gods revelation is destructive . I answer . If you mean against Gods Revelation known by the Church to be so , it is true ; but impossible that the Church should doe so , for ipso Facto in doing it , it were a Church no longer . But if you mean against some Revelation , which the Church by errour thinks to bee no Revelation , it is false . The Church may ignorantly disbelieue such a Revelation , and yet continue a Church ; which thus I proue . That the Gospell was to be preached to all Nations , was a Truth revealed before our Saviours Ascention , in these words , Goe and teach all Nations . Mat. 29. 19. Yet through prejudice or inadvertence , or some other cause , the Church disbelieved it ; as it is apparent out of the 11. and 12. Chap. of the Acts , untill the conversion of Cornelius , and yet was still a Church . Therefore to disbelieue some divine Revelation , not knowing it to be so , is not destructive of salvation , or of the being of the Church . Again , It is a plaine Revelation of God , that a the Sacrament of the Eucharist should be administred in both kindes : and b that the publique Hymnes and Prayers of the Church should be in such a language as is most for edification ; yet these Revelations the Church of Rome not seeing , by reason of the veile before their eyes , their Churches supposed infallibility , I hope the deniall of them shall not be laid to their charge , no otherwise then as building hay and stubble on the Foundations , not overthrowing the Foundation it selfe . 22 Ad § . 2. In the beginning of this Paragraph , wee haue this Argument against this Distinction ; It is enough ( by D. Potters confession ) to belieue some things negatiuely , i. e. not to deny them ; Therefore all deniall of any divine truth excludes Salvation . As if you should say : One Horse is enough for a man to goe a journey : Therefore without a horse no man can goe a journey . As if some Divine Truthes , vi● . Those which are plainly revealed , might not be such , as of necessity were not to be denied : and others for want of sufficient declaration , deniable without danger . Indeed if D. Potter had said there had been no divine Truth , declared sufficiently or not declared , but must upon pain of damnation be believed , or at least not denied , then might you justly haue concluded as you doe : but now , that some may not be denied , and that some may be denied without damnation why they may not both stand together I doe not yet understand . 23 In the Remainder you in ferre out of D. Potters words , That all errours are alike damnable , if the manner of propounding the contrary Truths be not different : which for ought I know , all Protestants , and all that haue sense must grant . Yet I deny your illation from hence , That the distinction of points into fundamentall and unfundamentall is vaine and uneffectuall for the purpose of Protestants . For though being alike propos'd as divine truths , they are by accident alike necessary , yet the reall difference still remaines between them , that they are not alike necessary to be proposed . 24 Ad § . 5. The next Paragraph , if it be brought out of the clouds , will I belieue haue in it these Propositions . 1. Things are distinguished by their different natures . 2. The Nature of Faith is taken , not from the matter believed , for then they that believed different matters should haue different Faiths , but from the Motive to it . 3. This Motiue is Gods Revelation . 4. This Revelation is alike for all obiects . 5. Protestants disagree in things equally revealed by God : Therefore they forsake the formall motiue of faith : and therefore haue no faith nor unity therein . Which is truly a very proper and convenient argument to close up ● weak discourse , wherein both the Propositions are false for matter , confused and disordered for the forme , and the conclusion utterly inconsequent . First for the second Proposition , who knowes not that the Essence of all Habits ( & therefore of Faith among the rest ) is taken from their Act , and their Object ? If the Habit be generall , from the Act and Object in generall , if the Habit be speciall , from the Act and Object in speciall . Then for the motiue to a thing , that it cannot be of the Essence of the thing to which it moues , who can doubt , that knows that a motiue is an efficient cause : and that the efficient is alwaies extrinsecall to the effect ? For the fourth , that Gods Revelation is alike for all objects , It is ambiguous : and if the sense of it be , that his Revelation is an equall Motive to induce us to belieue all objects revealed by him , it is true , but impertinent : If the sense of it be , that all objects revealed by God are alike ( that is , alike plainly and undoubtedly ) revealed by him , it is pertinent , but most untrue . Witnesse the great diversity of Texts of Scripture , whereof some are so plain and evident , that no man of ordinary sense can mistake the sense of them . Some are so obscure and ambiguous , that to say this or this is the certain sense of them , were high presumption . For the 5. Protestants disagree in things equally revealed by God! In themselues perhaps , but not equally to them : whose understandings by reason of their different Educations are fashioned , and shaped for the entertainment of various opinions , and consequently some of them , more enclined to belieue such a sense of Scripture , others to belieue another ; which to say that God will not take into his consideration in judging mens opinions , is to disparage his goodnesse . But to what purpose is it , that these things are equally revealed to both , ( as the light is equally revealed to all blind men , ) if they be not fully revealed to either ? The sense of this Scripture , Why are they then baptiz'd for the dead ? and this , He shall bee saved , yet so as by fire , and a thousand others , is equally revealed to you and to another interpreter , that is certainly to neither . Hee now conceiues one sense of them , and you another ; and would it not be an excellent inference , if I should conclude now as you doe ; That you forsake the formall motiue of faith , which is Gods revelation , and consequently loose all faith and unity therein ? So likewise the Iesuites and Dominicans , the Franciscans and Dominicans disagree about things equa●ly revealed by Almighty God : and seeing they doe so , I beseech you let me understand , why this reason will not exclude them as well as Protestants from all faith and unity therein ? Thus you haue fayl'd of your undertaking in your first part of your Title , and that is a very ill omen , especially in points of so streight mutuall dependance , that we shall haue but slender performance in your second assumpt . Which is , That the Church is infallible in all her Definitions , whether concerning points Fundamentall , or not Fundamentall . 25 Ad § 7. & 8. The Reasons in these two paragraphs , as they were alleaged before , so they were before answered , and thither I remit the Reader . 26 Ad § . 9. 10. 11. I grant that the Church cannot without damnable sinne , either deny any thing to be true , which she knowes to be Gods truth : or propose any thing as his truth , which she knowes not to be so . But that she may not doe this by ignorance or mistake , and so without damnable sinne , that you should haue proved , but haue not . But , say you this excuse cannot serue : for if the Church bee assisted onely for points fundamentall , she cannot but know that she may erre in points not fundamentall . Ans. It does not follow , unlesse you suppose , that the Church knowes that she is assisted no farther . But if , being assisted only so farre , she yet did conceaue by errour her assistance absolute and unlimited , or if knowing her assistance restrained to fundamentalls , she yet conceived by errour , that she should bee guarded , from proposing any thing but what was fundamentall , then the consequence is apparently false . But at least she cannot be certain that she cannot erre , and therefore cannot be excus'd from headlong and pernicious temerity in proposing points not fundamentall , to be believed by Christians as matters of faith . Ans. Neither is this deduction worth any thing ; unlesse it bee understood of such unfundamentall points , as shee is not warranted to propose by evident Text of Scripture . Indeed if she propose such , as matters of faith certainly true , she may well be questioned , Quo Warranto ? Shee builds without a foundation , and saies thus saith the Lord , when the Lord doth not say so : which cannot be excus'd from rashnesse and high presumption ; such a presumption , as an Embassadour should commit , who should say in his Masters name that for which hee hath no commission . Of the same nature , I say , but of a higher straine : as much as the King of Heaven , is greater then any earthly King. But though she may erre in some points not fundamentall , yet may shee haue certainty enough in proposing others ; as for example , these , That Abraham begat Isaac , that S. Paul had a Cloak , that Timothy was sick ; because these ▪ though not Fundamentall . i. e. no essentiall parts of Christianity , yet are evidently , and undeniably set down in Scripture , and consequently , may be without all rashnes propos'd by the Church as certaine divine Revelations . Neither is your Argument concluding when you say , If in such things she may be deceived , she must be alwaies uncertain of all such things . For my sense may sometimes possibly deceiue me , yet I am certain enough that I see what I see , and feel what I feel . Our Iudges are not infallible in their judgements , yet are they certain enough , that they judge aright , and that they proceed according to the evidence that is given , when they condemne a theef , or a murtherer to the gallows . A Traveller is not alwaies certain of his way , but often mistaken : and does it therefore follow that hee can haue no assurance that Charing crosse is his right way from the Temple to White-Hall ? The ground of your errour here , is your not distinguishing , between Actuall certainty and Absolute infallibility . Geometricians are not infallible in their own science : yet they are very certain of those things , which they see demonstrated . And Carpenters are not infallible , yet certain of the straightnesse of those things which agree with their rule and square . So though the Church be not infallibly certain , that in all her Definitions , whereof some are about disputable and ambiguous matters , she shall proceed according to her Rule , yet being certain of the infallibility of her rule , and that in this or that thing she doth manifestly proceed according to it , she may be certaine of the Truth of some particular decrees , and yet not certain that shee shall never decree but what is true . 27 Ad § 12. But if the Church may erre in points not fundamentall , she may erre in proposing Scripture , and so we cannot bee assur'd whether she haue not been deceived already . The Church may erre in her Proposition or custody of the Canon of Scripture , if you understand by the Church , any present Church of one denomination , fo● example , the Roman , the Greek , or so . Yet haue we sufficient certainty of Scripture , not from the bare testimony of any present Church , but from Vniversall Tradition , of which the testimony of any present Church is but a little part . So that here you fall into the Fallacy , à dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter . For in effect this is the sense of your Argument : Vnlesse the Church be infallible , we can haue no certainty of Scripture from the authority of the Church : Therefore unlesse the Church be infallible , we can have no certainty here of at all . As if a man should say ; If the vintage of France miscarry , we can have no wine from France : Therefore if that Vintage miscarry we can have no Wine at all . And for the incorruption of Scripture , I know no other rationall assurance we can have of it , then such as we have of the incorruption of other ancient Bookes , that is , the consent of ancient Copies : such I mean for the kind , though it be farre greater for the degree of it . And if the spirit of God give any man any other assurance hereof , this is not rationall and discursive , but supernaturall and infused . An assurance it may be to himselfe , but no argument to another . As for the infallibility of the Church , it is so farre from being a proofe of the Scriptures incorruption , that no proofe can be pretended for it , but incorrupted places of Scripture : which yet are as subject to corruption as any other , and more likely to have been corrupted ( if it had been possible ) then any other , and made to speak as they doe , for the advantage of those men , whose ambition it hath been a long time , to bring all under their authority . Now then , if any man should prove the Scriptures uncorrupted , because the Church saies so which is infallible : I would demand again touching this very thing , that there is an infallible Church , seeing it is not of it selfe evident , how shall I be assured of it ? And what can he answer , but that the Scripture saies so in these and these places ? Hereupon I would aske him , how shall I be assured , that the Scriptures are incorrupted in thse places ? seeing it is possible , and not altogether improbable , that these men , which desire to be thought infallible , when they had the government of all things in their own hands , may have altered them for their purpose . If to this he answer again , that the Church is infallible , and therefore cannot doe so , I hope it would be apparent , that he runs round in a circle , and proves the Scriptures incorruption , by the Churches infallibility , and the Churches infallibility by the Scriptures incorruption , and that is in effect the Churches infallibility , by the Churches infallibility , and the Scriptures incorruption by the Scriptures incorruption . 28 Now for your observation , that some Bookes , which were not alwaies known to be Canonicall , have been afterwards received for such . But never any book or syllable defined for Canonicall , was afterwards questioned or rejected for Apocryphall : I demand , touching the first sort , whether they were commended to the Church by the Apostles as Canonicall or not ? If not , seeing the whole faith was preached by the Apostles to the Church , and seeing after the Apostles , the Church pretends to no new Revelations , how can it be an Article of faith to believe them Canonicall ? And how can you pretend , that your Church which makes this an article of faith , is so assisted as not to propose any thing as a divine truth which is not revealed by God ? If they were , how then is the Church an infallible keeper of the Canō of Scripture , which hath suffered some Bookes of Canonicall Scripture , to be lost ? & others to loose for a long time their being Canonicall , at least , the necessity of being so esteemed , and afterwards , as it were by the law of Post liminium hath restored their Authority and Canonicalnesse unto them ? If this was delivered by the Apostles to the Church , the point was sufficiently discussed , and therefore your Churches omission to teach it for some ages , as an article of faith , nay degrading it from the number of articles of faith , and putting it among disputable problems , was surely not very laudable . If it were not revealed by God to the Apostles , and by the Apostles to the Church , then can it be no Revelation , and therefore her presumption in proposing it as such , is inexcusable . 19 And then for the other part of it , that never any book or syllable defined for Canonicall , was afterwards question'd or rejected for Apocryphall : Certainly it is a bold asseveration , but extreamly false . For I demand ; The Book of Ecclesiasticus and Wisdome , the Epistle of Saint Iames , and to the Heb. were they by the Apostles appoved for Canonicall , or no ? If not , with what face dare you approve them , and yet pretend that all your doctrine is Apostolicall ? Especially seeing it is evident that this point is not deducible by rationall discourse from any other defined by them . If they were approved by them , this I hope was a sufficient definition : and therefore you were best rub your forehead hard , and say , that these Books were never questioned . But if you doe so , then I shall be bold to aske you , what bookes you meant in saying before , Some bookes which were not alwaies known to be Canonicall , have been afterwards received ? Then for the book of Macchabes , I hope you will say , it was defin'd for Canonicall before S. Gregories time : and yet he , lib. 19. Moral , c. 13. citing a testimony out of it , prefaceth to it after this manner , Concerning which matter we doe not amisse if we produce a testimony out of Bookes although not Canonicall , yet set forth , for the edification of the Church . For Eleazar in the Book of Machabees . &c. Which if it be not to reject it from being Canonicall , is without question , at least to question it . Moreover , because you are so punctuall , as to talk of words and syllables , I would know whether before Sixtus Quint us his time , your Church had a defined Canon of Scripture , or not ? If not , then was your Church surely a most Vigilant keeper of Scripture , that for 1500 yeares had not defined what was Scripture , and what was not . If it had , then I demand , was it that , set forth by Sixtus , or that , set forth by Clement , or a third different from both ? If it were that set forth by Sixtus , then is it now condemned by Clement : if that of Clement , it was condemned I say , but sure you will say contradicted and question'd by Sixtus ; If different from both , then was it question'd and condemned by both , and still lies under the condemnation . But then lastly , suppose it had been true , That both some Book not known to be Canonicall had been received , and that never any after receiving had been questioned : How had this been a signe that the Church is infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost ? In what mood or figure , would this conclusion follow out of these Premises ? Certainly your flying to such poor signes , as these are , is to me a great signe , that you labour with penury of better arguments : and that , thus to catch at shadowes and bul●ushes , is a shrewd signe of a sinking cause . 30 Ad § . 13. We are told here , That the generall promises of Infallibility to the Church , must not be restrained only to points fundamentall : Because then the Apostles words and writings may also be so restrained . The Argument put in forme , and made compleat by supply of the concealed Proposition runs thus ; The Infallibility promised to the present Church of any age , is as absolute and unlimited , as that promised to the Apostles in their Preaching and Writings : But the Apostles Infallibility is not to be limited to Fundamentalls : Therefore neither is the Churches Infallibility thus to be limited . Or thus ; The Apostles Infallibility in their Preaching and writing may be limited to Fundamentalls as well as the Infallibility of the present Church : But that is not to be done : Therefore this also is not to be done . Now to this Argument , I answere , that if by may be as well , in the major Proposition , be understood , may be as possibly : it is true , but impertinent . If by it we understand , may be as iustly and rightly , It is very pertinent but very false . So that as D. Potter limits the infallibility of the Present Church unto Fundamentalls , so another may limit the Apostles unto them also . He may doe it de facto , but de iure he cannot ; that may be done and done lawfully : this also may be done , but not lawfully . That may be done , and if it be done cannot be confuted : This also may be done , but if it be done , may easily be confuted . It is done to our hand in this very Paragraph , by five words taken out of Scripture , All Scripture is divinely inspired . Shew but as much for the Church : Shew where it is written , That all the decrees of the Church are divinely inspired ; and the Controversy will be at an end . Besides , there is not the same reason for the Churches absolute infallibility , as for the Apostles and Scriptures . For if the Church fall into error , it may be reformed by comparing it with the rule of the Apostles doctrine and Scripture . But if the Apostles have erred in delivering the doctrine of Christianity , to whom shall we have recourse , for the discovering and correcting their error ? Again , there is not so much strength required in the Edifice as in the Foundation : and if but wisemen have the ordering of the building , they will make it much a surer thing , that the foundation shall not fail the building , then that the building shall not fall from the foundation . And though the building be to be of Brick or Stone , and perhaps of wood , yet if it may be possibly , they will have a rock for their foundation , whose stability is a much more indubitable thing , then the adherence of the structure to it . Now the Apostles & Prophets , and Canonicall Writers , are the foundation of the Church , according to that of S. Paul , built upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets ; therefore their stability , in reason ought to be greater then the Churches , which is built upon them . Again , a dependent Infallibility ( especially if the dependance be voluntary ) cannot be so certain , as that on which it depends : But the Infallibility of the Church , depends upon the Infallibility of the Apostles , as the streightnesse of the thing regulated , upon the streightnesse of the Rule : and besides this dependance is voluntary , for it is in the power of the Church to deviate from this Rule ; being nothing else but an aggregation of men , of which every one has free will , and is subject to passions and errour : Therefore the Churches infallibility , is not so certain as that of the Apostles . 31 Lastly , Quid verba audiam , cum fact a videam ? If you be so Infallible as the Apostles were , shew it as the Apostles did ; They went forth ( saith S. Marke ) and Preached every where , the Lord working with them , and confirming their words with Signes following . It is impossible that God should lye , and that the eternall Truth should set his hand and seale to the confirmation of a falshood , or of such Doctrine as is partly true and partly false . The Apostles Doctrine was thus confirmed , therefore it was intirely true , and in no part either false or uncertain . I say in no part of that which they delivered constantly , as a certain divine Truth , and which had the Atte●tation of Divine Miracles . For that the Apostles themselves , even after the sending of the holy Ghost , were , and through inadvertence or prejudice , continued for a time in an errour , repugnant to a revealed Truth , it is as I have already noted unanswerably evident , from the story of the Acts of the Apostles . For notwithstanding our Saviours expresse warrant & injunction , to goe and Preach to all Nations , yet untill S. Peter was better informed by a vision from Heaven , and by the conversion of Cornelius , both he and the rest of the Church , held it unlawfull for them , to goe or preach the Gospell to any but the Iewes . 32 And for those things which they professe to deliver as the dictates of humane reason and prudence , and not as divine Revelations , why we should take them to be divine revelations , I see no reason ; nor how we can doe so , and not contradict the Apostles , and God himselfe . Therefore when S. Paul saies , in the 1. Epist. to the Cor. 7. 12. To the rest speak I , not the Lord ; And again , concerning Virgins I have no commandement of the Lord , but I deliver my Iudgement : If we will pretend , that the Lord did certainly speak , what S. Paul spake , and that his judgement was Gods commandement , shall we not plainly contradict S. Paul , and that spirit by which he wrote ? which moved him to write , as in other places divine Revelations , which he certainly knew to be such , so in this place , his own judgement , touching some things which God had not particularly revealed unto him . And if D. Potter did speak to this purpose ( that the Apostles were Infallible only in these things which they spake of certain knowledge ) I cannot see what danger there were in saying so . Yet the truth is , you wrong D. Potter . It is not he , but D. Stapleton in him , that speakes the words you cavill at . D. Stapleton ▪ saith he , p. 140. is full and punctuall to this purpose : then sets down the effect of his discourse l. 8. Princ. Doct. 4. c. 15. and in that , the words you cavill at , and then , p. 150. he shuts up this paragraph with these words , thus D. Stapleton . So that if either the Doctrine , or the reason be not good , D. Stapleton , not D. Potter is to answer for it . 33 Neither doe D. Potter's ensuing words limit the Apostles infalbilitie to truths absolutely necessary to salvation , if you read them with any candor : for it is evident , he grants the Church infallible in Truths absolutely necessary ; and as evident , that he ascribes to the Apostles , the spirits guidance , and consequently infallibility in a more high and absolute manner then any since them . From whence , thus I argue : Hee that grants the Church infallible in Fundamentals , and ascribes to the Apostles the infallible guidance of the Spirit , in a more high and absolute manner then to any since them , limits not the Apostles infallibility to Fundamentals ; But D. Potter grants to the Church such a limited infallibility , and ascribes to the Apostles , The Spirits infallible guidance in a more high and absolute manner ; therefore hee limits not the Apostles infallibility to Fundamentals . I once knew a man out of curtesie , help a lame dog over a stile , and he for requitall bit him by the fingers : Iust so you serue D. Potter . He out of curtesie grants you , that those words , The Spirit shall lead you into all Truth , and shall abide with you ever , though in their high and most absolute sense , they agree only to the Apostles , yet in a conditionall , limited , moderate , secundary sense , they may be understood of the Church . But saies , that if they be understood of the Church , All , must not be simply all , No , nor so large an All , as the Apostles All , but all necessary to salvation . And you to requite his curtesie , in granting you thus much cavill at him , as if hee had prescribed these bounds to the Apostles also , as well as the present Church . Whereas , he hath explained himselfe to the contrary , both in the clause fore-mentioned , The Apostles , who had the spirits guidance in a more high and absolute manner then any since them , and in these words ensuing , whereof the Church is simply ignorant , and againe , w●erewith the Church is not acquainted . But most clearly in those which being most incompatible to the Apostles , you with an &c , I cannot but feare craftily , haue conceal'd : How many obscure Texts of Scripture which she understands not ? How many Schoole Questions which she hath not , happily cannot determine ? And for matters of fact it is apparent that the Church may erre ; and then concludes , That we must understand by , All truths , not simply All , But ( if you conceiue the words as spoken of the Church ) All Truth absolutely necessary to salvation . And yet beyond all this , the negative part of his answer , agrees very well to the Apostles themselues , for that All which they were led into , was not simply All , otherwise S. Paul erred in saying , we know in part ; but such an All , as was requisite to make them the Churches Foundations . Now such they could not be without freedome from errour in all those things which they delivered constantly , as certaine revealed Truths . For if we once suppose they may haue erred in some things of this nature , it will be utterly undiscernable what they haue erred in , & what they haue not . Whereas though wee suppose the Church hath err'd in somethings , yet we haue meanes to know , what she hath err'd in , and what she hath not . I mean by comparing the Doctrine of the present Church , with the doctrine of the Primitiue Church delivered in Scripture . But then last of all , suppose the Doctor had said ( which I know he never intended ) that this promise in this place made to the Apostles , was to bee understood only of a Truth absolutely necessary to salvation ; Is it consequent that he makes their Preaching and Writing not Infallible in points not fundamentall ? Doe you not blush for shame at this Sophistry ? The Dr saies , no more was promised in this place ; Therefore he saies no more was promised ! Are there not other places besides this ? And may not that be promised in other places , which is not promised in this ? 34 But if the Apostles were Infallible , in all things propos'd by them as Divine Truths , the like must be affirm'd of the Church , because Doctor Potter teacheth the said promise to be verified in the Church . True , hee does so , but not in so absolute a manner . Now what is oppos'd to Absolute , but limited , or restrained ? To the Apostles then it was made , & to them only , yet the words are true of the Church . And this very promise might haue been made to it , though here it is not . They agree to the Apostles in a higher , to the Church in a lower sense : to the Apostles in a more absolute , to the Church in a more limited sense . To the Apostles absolutely , for the Churches direction : to the Church Conditionally by adherence to that direction , and so farre as she doth adhere to it . In a word , the Apostles were led into all Truths by the Spirit , efficaciter : The Church is led also into all truth by the Apostles writings , sufficienter . So that the Apostles and the Church , may be fitly compared to the Starre and the Wisemen . The Starre was directed by the finger of God , and could not but goe right to the place where Christ was : But the Wise men were led by the Starre to Christ ; led by it , I say , not efficaciter , or irresistibiliter , but sufficienter , so that if they would they might follow it , if they would not , they might choose . So was it between the Apostles writing Scriptures , & the Church . They in their writing were Infallibly assisted to propose nothing as a divine Truth , but what was so . The Church is also led into all Truth , but it is by the intervening of the Apostles writings : But it is , as the Wisemen were led by the Starre , or as a Traveller is directed by a Mercuriall statue , or as a Pilot by his Card and Compasse ▪ led sufficiently , but not irresistibly : led so that she may follow , not so that she must . For seeing the Church is a society of men , whereof every one ( according to the Doctrine of the Romish Church ) hath freewill in believing ; it follows , that the whole aggregate has freewill in believing . And if any man say that at least it is morally impossible , that of so many w●ereof all may belieue aright , not any should doe so : I answer , It is true , if they did all giue themselues any liberty of judgement . But if all ( as the case is here ) captivate their understandings to one of them , all are as likely to erre as that one . And he more likely to erre then any other , because hee may erre and thinks he cannot , & because he conceiues the Spirit absolutly promis'd to the succession of Bishops , of which many haue been notoriously and confessedly wicked men , Men of the World : whereas this Spirit is the Spirit of Truth , whom the world cannot receiue , because he seeth him not , neither knoweth him . Besides , let us suppose , that neither in this nor in any other place , God had promised any more unto them , but to lead them into all Truth , necessary for their own & other mens salvation : Does it therefore follow that they were de facto , led no farther ? God indeed is oblig'd by his Veracity to doe all that hee has promised , but is there any thing that binds him to doe no more ? May not he be better then his word , but you will quarrell at him ? May not his Bounty exceed his Promise ? And may not we haue certainty enough that oftimes it does so ? God did not promise to Solomon , in his vision at Gibeon , any more then what he askt , which was wisdome to govern his people , and that he gaue him . But yet I hope you will not deny that we haue certainty enough that he gaue him something which neither God had promised , nor he had asked . If you doe , you contradict God himselfe : For Behold ( saith God ) because thou hast asked this thing , I haue done according to thy word . Loe , I haue given thee a Wise and an Vnderstanding heart , so that there was none like thee before thee , neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee . And I haue also given thee that which thou hast not asked , both riches and honour , so that there shall not be any among the Kings like unto thee in all thy dayes . God , for ought appeares , never oblig'd himselfe by promise , to shew S. Paul those Vnspeakable mysteries , which in the third Heaven he shewed unto him : and yet I hope we haue certainty enough , that he did so . God promises to those that seek his Kingdome and the righteousnesse thereof , that all things necessary shall be added vnto them , and in rigour by his promise he is obliged to doe no more , and if hee giue them necessaries he hath discharged his obligation : Shall we therefore be so injurious to his bounty towards us , as to say it is determined by the narrow bounds of meere necessity ? So though God had obliged himselfe by promise , to giue his Apostles infallibility onely in things necessary to salvation ; neverthelesse it is utterly inconsequent , that he gaue them no more , then by the rigour of his promise he was engaged to doe ; or that we can haue no assurance of any farther assistance that he gaue them : especially when he himselfe , both by his word , and by his works hath assured us , that he did assist them farther . You see by this time that your chaine of feareful consequences ( as you call them ) is turned to a rope of sand , and may easily bee avoided without any flying to your imaginary infallibility of the Church in all her proposalls . 35 Ad § 14. & 15. Doubting of a Book receaved for Canonicall , may signifie , either doubting whether it be Canonicall ; or supposing it to be Canonicall , whether it be True. If the former sense were yours , I must then againe distinguish of the terme , received ; For it may signify , either received by some particular Church , or by the present Church Vniversall , or the Church of all Ages . If you meant the word in either of the former senses , that which you say is not t●●e . A man may justly and reasonably doubt of some Texts , or some Book received by some particular Church , or by the Vniversall Church of this present time , whether it be Canonicall or no : and yet haue just reason to belieue , & no reason to doubt , but that other Books are Canonicall . As Eusebius perhaps , had reason to doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames ; the Church of Rome in Hierom's time of the Epistle to the Hebr. And yet they did not doubt of all the Books of the Canon , nor had reason to doe so . If by Received , you meant , Received by the Church of all Ages , I grant he that doubts of any one such Book , has as much reason to doubt of all . But yet here again I tell you , that it is possible a man may doubt of one such book , and yet not of all : because it is possible men may doe not according to reason . If you meant your words in the latter sense ; then I confesse he that belieues such a Book to be Canonicall , i. e. the word of God , and yet ( to make an impossible supposition ) believes it not to be true , if he will doe according to reason , must doubt of all the rest , and belieue none . For there being no greater reason to believe any thing true , then because God hath said it , nor no other reason to belieue the Scripture to be true , but only because it is Gods word ; hee that doubts of the Truth of any thing said by God , hath as much reason to belieue nothing that he saies : and therefore if he will doe according to reason , neither must nor can believe any thing he saies . And upon this ground you conclude rightly , that the infallibility of true Scripture must be Vniversall , and not confin'd to points fundamentall . 36 And this Reason why we should not refuse to beleiue any part of Scripture , upon pretence that the matter of it is not Fundamentall , you confesse to be convincing . But the same reason you say is as convincing for the Vniversall infallibility of the Church . For ( say you ) unlesse shee be Infallible in all things , we cannot belieue her in any one . But by this reason your Proselytes , knowing you are not Infallible in all things , must not , nor cannot belieue you in any thing . Nay you your selfe must not belieue your selfe in any thing , because you know that you are not Infallible in all things . Indeed if you had said wee could not rationally belieue her for her own sake , and upon her own word and authority in any thing , I should willingly grant the consequence . For an authority subject to errour can be no firm or stable foundation of my beliefe in any thing : and if it were in any thing , then this authority being one & the same in all proposalls , I should haue the same reason to belieue all , that I haue to belieue one , and therefore must either doe unreasonably , in believing any one thing , upon the sole warrant of this authority , or unreasonably in not believing all things equally warranted by it . Let this therefore be granted ; and what will come of it ? Why then , you say , we cannot belieue her in propounding Canonicall Books . If you mean still ( as you must doe unlesse you play the Sophister ) not upon her own Authority , I grant it : For we belieue Canonicall Books not upon the Authority of the present Church , but upon Vniversall Tradition . If you mean , Not at all , and that with reason we cannot believe these Books to be Canonicall , which the Church proposes , I deny it . There is no more consequence i●●he Argument then in this , The Divell is not infallible , therefore if he saies there is one God , I cannot believe him . No Geometritian is Infallible in all things , therefore not in these things which the domonstrates . M. Knot is not Infallible in all things , therefore he may not believe that he wrote a Book , entituled Charity Maintained . 37 But though the reply be good , Protestants cannot make use of it , with any good coherence to this distinction , and some other Doctrine of theirs : because they pretend to be able to tell , what points are Fundamentall and what not ; and therefore though they should believe Scripture erroneous in others , yet they might be sure it err'd not in these . To this I answer . That if without dependance on Scripture , they did know what were Fundamentall , and what not , they might possibly believe the Scripture true in Fundamentalls , and erroneous in other things . But seeing they ground their beliefe , that such and such things only are Fundamentalls , only upon Scripture , and goe about to prove their assertion true , only by Scripture , then must they suppose the Scripture true absolutely and in all things , or else the Scripture could not be a sufficient warrant to them , to believe this thing , that these only points are Fundamentall . For who would not laugh at them if they should argue thus , The Scripture is true in something ; the Scripture saies that these points only are Fundamentall , therefore this is true , that these only are so ! For every Fresh-man in Logick knowes that from meer particulars nothing can be certainly concluded . But on the other side , this reason is firme , and demonstrative , The Scripture is true in all things ; But the Scripture saies , that these only points are the Fundamentalls of Christian Religion , therefore it is true , that these only are so . So that the knowledge of Fundamentalls being it selfe drawen from Scripture , is so farre from warranting us to believe the Scripture is , or may be in part True , and in part False ; that it selfe can have no foundation , but the Vniversall truth of Scripture . For to be a Fundamentall truth , presupposes to be a truth ; now I cannot know any Doctrine to be a divine and supernaturall Truth , on a true part of Christianity , but only because the Scripture saies so , which is all true : Therefore , much more can I not know it , to be a Fundamentall truth . 33 Ad § . 16. To this Parag. I answer . Though the Church being not Infallible , I cannot believe her in every thing she saies , yet I can and must believe her in every thing she proves , either by Scripture , Reason , or universall Tradition , be it Fundamentall , or be it not Fundamentall . This you say , we cannot , in points not Fundamentall , because in such we believe she may erre . But this I know , we can : because though she may erre in some things , yet she does not erre in what she proves , though it be not Fundamentall . Again you say , we cannot doe it in Fundamentalls , because we must know what points be Fundamentall , before we goe to learn of her . Not so , but I must learn of the Church , or of some part of the Church , or I cannot know any thing Fundamentall or not Fundamentall . For how can I come to know , that there was such a man as Christ , that he taught such Doctrine , that he and his Apostles did such miracles in confirmation of it , that the Scripture is Gods word , unlesse I be taught it . So then the Church is , though not a certain Foundation and proof of my Faith , yet a necessary introduction to it . 39 But the Churches infallible direction , extending only to Fundamentalls , unlesse I know them before I goe to learn of her , I may be rather deluded then instructed by her . The reason and connexion of this consequence , I fear neither I nor you doe well understand . And besides I must tell you , you are too bold in taking that which no man grants you , that the Church is an infallible direction in Fundamentalls . For if she were so , then must we not only learn Fundamentalls of her , but also learn of her what is fundamentall , and take all for fundamentall which she delivers to be such . In the performance whereof , if I knew any one Church to be infallible , I would quickly be of that Church . But good Sir , you must needs doe us this favour , to be so acute , as to distinguish between , being infallible in fundamentalls , and being an infallible guide in fundamentalls . That she shall be alwaies a Church infallible in fundamentalls , we easily grant ; for it comes to no more but this , that there shall be alwaies a Church . But that there shall be alwaies such a Church , which is an infallible Guide in fundamentalls , this we deny . For this cannot be without setling a known infallibility in some one known society of Christians , ( as the Greek or the Roman , or some other Church ) by adhering to which Guide , men might be guided to believe aright in all Fundamentalls . A man that were destitute of all meanes of communicating his thoughts to others , might yet in himselfe , and to himselfe be infallible , but he could not be a Guide to others . A man or a Church that were invisible , so that none could know how to repaire to it for direction , could not be an infallible guide , and yet he might be in himselfe infallible . You see then there is a wide difference between these two , and therefore I must beseech you not to confound them , nor to take the one for the other . 40 But they that know what points are Fundamentall , otherwise then by the Churches authority , learn not of the Church : Yes , they may learn of the Church , that the Scripture is the word of God , and from the Scripture , that such points are fundamentall , others are not so ; and consequently learn , even of the Church , even of your Church , that all is not fundamentall , nay all is not true , which the Church teacheth to be so . Neither doe I see what hinders , but a man may learn of a Church , how to confure the errors of that Church which taught him : as well as of my Master in Physick , or the Mathematicks , I may learn those rules and principles , by which I may confute my Masters erroneous conclusions . 41 But you aske , If the Church be not an infallible teacher , why are we commanded to hear , to seek , to obey the Church ? I Answer . For commands to seek the Church , I have not yet met with any , and I believe you , if you were to shew them , would be your selfe to seek . But yet if you could produce some such , we might seek the Church to many good purposes , without supposing her a Guide infallible . And then for hearing and obeying the Church , I would fain know , whether none may be heard and obeyed , but those that are infallible ? Whether particular Churches , Governors , Pastors , Parents , be not to be heard and obeyed ? Or whether all these be Infallible ? I wonder you will thrust upon us so often , these worne out-objections , without taking notice of their Answers . 42 Your Argument from S. Austine's first place , is a fallacy , Adicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter . If the whole Church practise any of these things ( matters of order and decency , for such only there he speaks of , ) to dispute whether that ought to be done , is insolent madnesse . And from hence you inferre , If the whole Church practise any thing , to dispute whether it ought to be done , is insolent madnesse . As if there were no difference between any thing , and any of these things ? Or as if I might not esteem it pride and folly , to contradict and disturbe the Church for matter of order , pertaining to the time and place , and other circumstances of Gods worship ; and yet account it neither pride nor folly , to goe about to reforme some errors , which the Church hath suffered to come in , and to vitiate the very substance of Gods worship . It was a practise of the whole Church in S. Austines time , and esteem'd an Apostolique Tradition , even by Saint Austine himself , That the Eucharist should be administred to infants : Tell me Sir , I beseech you ; Had it been insolent madnesse to dispute against this practise , or had it not ? If it had , how insolent and mad are yo● , that have not only disputed against it , but utterly abolished it ? If it had not , then as I say , you must understand S. Austines words , not simply of all things , but ( as indeed he himselfe restrained them ) of these things , of matter of Order , Decency , and Vniformity . 43 In the next place , you tell us out of him , That that which has been alwaies kept , is most rightly esteem'd to come from the Apostles : Very right , and what then ? Therefore the Church cannot erre in defining of Controversies . Sir I beseech you , when you write again , doe us the favour to write nothing but syllogismes , for I find it still an extream trouble , to find out the concealed propositions , which are to connect the parts of your enthymemes . As now for example , I professe unto you , I am at my wits end , and have done my best endeavour , to find some glue , or sodder , or cement , or chaine , or thred , or anything to tye this antecedent and this consequent together , and at length am inforced to give it over , and cannot doe it . 44 But the Doctrines , that Infants are to be baptized , and those that are baptized by Heretiques , are not to be re-baptized , are neither of them to be proved by Scripture : And yet according to S. Austine they are true Doctrines , and we may be certain of them upon the Authority of the Church , which we could not be , unless the Church were Infallible ; therefore the Church is infallible . I answer , that there is no repugnance but we may be certain enough , of the Vniversall Traditions of the ancient Church , such as in S. Austin's account , these were which here are spoken of , and yet not be certain enough , of the definitions of the present Church . Vnlesse you can shew ( which I am sure you can never doe ) that the Infallibility of the present Church , was alwaies a Tradition of the ancient Church . Now your main businesse is to prove the present Church infallible , not so much in consigning ancient Traditions , as in defining emergent controversies . Again , it followes not , because the Churches Authority , is warrant enough for us to believe some doctrine , touching which the Scripture is silent , therefore it is Warrant enough to believe these , to which the Scripture seemes repugnant . Now the Doctrines which S. Austine received upon the Churches Authority , were of the first sort ; the Doctrines for which we deny your Churches infallibility are of the second . And therefore though the Churches authority , might be strong enough , to bear the weight which S. Austine laid upon it , yet happily if may not be strong enough , to bear that which you lay upon it . Though it may support some Doctrines without Scripture , yet surely not against it . And last of all , to deal ingeniously with you and the World , I am not such an Idolater of S. Austine , as to think a thing proved sufficiently because he saies it , nor that all his sentences are oracles ; and particularly in this thing , that whatsoever was practised or held by the Vniversall Church of his time , must needs have come from the Apostles . Though considering the neerenesse of his time to the Apostles , I think it a good probable way , and therefore am apt enough to follow it , when I see no reason to the contrary . Yet I professe I must have better satisfaction , before I can induce my selfe to hold it certain and infallible . And this , not because Popery would come in at this dore , as some have vainly feared , but because by the Church Vniversall of some time , and the Church Vniversall of other times , I see plain contradictions held and practised . Both which could not come from the Apostles , for then the Apostles had been teachers of falshood . And therefore the belief or practise of the present Vniversall Church , can be no infallible proof , that the Doctrine so beleived , or the custome so practised came from the Apostles . I instance in the doctrine of the Millenaries , and the Eucharists necessity for infants : both which Doctrines have been taught by the consent of the eminent Fathers of some ages , without any opposition from any of their Contemporaries : and were delivered by them , not as Doctors , but as Witnesses , not as their own opinions , but as Apostolike Traditions . And therefore measuring the doctrine of the Church by all the Rules which Cardinall Perron gives us for that purpose , both these Doctrines must be acknowledged to have been the doctrines of the Ancient Church of some age , or ages ; And that the contrary ▪ Doctrines were Catholique at some other time , I believe you will not think it needfull for me to prove . So that either I must say , the Apostles were fountaines of contradictious doctrines , or that being the Vniversall Doctrine of the present Church , is no sufficient proof that it came originally from the Apostles . Besides , who can warrant us , that the Vniversall Traditions of the Church were all Apostolicall ? seeing in that famous place for Traditions , in Tertullian , a Quicunque traditor , any author whatsoever is founder good enough for them . And who can secure us , that Humane inventions , and such as came à quocunque Traditore , might not in a short time , gain the reputation of Apostolique ! Seeing the direction then was , b Precepta ma●orum Apostolicas Traditiones quisque existimat . 45 No lesse you say is S. Chrysost. for the infallible Traditions of the Church . But you were to prove the Church infallible , not in her Traditions ( which we willingly grant , if they be as universall as the Tradition of the undoubted books of Scripture is , to be as infallible as the Scripture is ; for neither does being written make the word of God the more infallible , nor being unwritten make it the lesse infallible : ) Not therefore in her universall Traditions , were you to prove the Church infallible , but in all her Decrees and definitions of Controversies . To this point when you speak you shall have an answer , but hitherto you doe but wander . 46 But let us see what S. Chrysostome saies , They ( the Apostles ) delivered not all things in writing ( who denies it ? ) but many things also without writing , ( who doubts of it ? ) and these also are worthy of belief . Yes , if we knew what they were . But many things are worthy of belief , which are not necessary to be believed : As that Iulius Caesar was Emperour of Rome is a thing worthy of belief , being so well testified as it is , but yet it is not necessary to be believed ; a man may be saved without it . Those many workes which our Saviour did ( which S. Iohn supposes , would not have been contained in a world of bookes ) if they had been written , or if God by some other meanes had preserv'd the knowledge of them , had been as worthy to be believed , and as necessary as those that are written . But to shew you how much a more faith full keeper Records are then report , those few that were written are preserved & believed , those infinitly more that were not written , are all lost and vanished out of the memory of men . And seeing God in his providence , hath not thought fit to preserve the memory of them , he hath freed us from the obligation of believing them : for every obligation ceases , when it becomes impossible . Who can doubt but the Primitive Christians , to whom the Epistles of the Apostles were written , either of themselves understood , or were instructed by the Apostles , touching the sense of the obscure places of them ? These Traditive interpretations , had they been written and dispersed , as the Scriptures were , had without question been preserved , as the Scriptures are . But to shew how excellent a keeper of the Tradition , the Church of Rome hath been , or even the Catholique Church ▪ for want of writing they are all lost , nay were all lost , within a few ages after Christ. So that if we consult the ancient Interpreters , we shall hardly find any two of them agree about the sense of any one of them . Cardinall Perron , in his discourse of Traditions , having alleaged this place for them , Hold the Traditions &c. tells us we must not answer that S. Paul speaks here , only of such Traditions , which ( though not in this Epist. to the Thess. ) yet were afterwards written , and in other bookes of Scripture : because it is upon occasion of Tradition ( touching the cause of the hinderance of the comming of Antichrist , ) which was never written , that he laies this iniunction upon them , to hold the Traditions . Well , let us grant this Argument good , and concluding ; and that the Church of the Thessalonians , or the Catholique Church ( for what S. Paul writ to one Church he writ to all , ) were to hold some unwritten Traditions , and among the rest , what was the cause of the hinderance of the comming of Antichrist . But what if they did not performe their duty in this point , but suffered this Tradition to be lost out of the memory of the Church ? Shall we not conclude , that seeing God would not suffer any thing necessary to salvation to be lost , and he has suffered this Tradition to be lost , therefore the knowledge or belief of it , though it were a profitable thing , yet it was not necessary ? I hope you will not challenge such authority over us , as to oblige us to impossibilities , to doe that which you cannot doe your selves . It is therefore requisite that you make this command possible to be obeyed , before you require obedience unto it . Are you able then to instruct us so well ; as to be fit to say unto us , Now ye know what withholdeth ? Or doe you your selves know that ye may instruct us ? Can yee , or dare you say , this or this was this hindrance which S. Paul here meant , and all men under pain of damnatiō are to believe it ? Or if you cannot , ( as I am certain you cannot ) goe then , & vaunt your Church , for the only Watchfull , Faithfull , Infallible keeper of the Apostles Traditions ; when here this very Tradition , which here in particular was deposited with the Thessalonians and the Primitive Church , you have utterly lost it , so that there is no footstep or print of it remaining , which with Divine faith we may rely upon . Blessed therefore be the goodnesse of God , who seeing that what was not written , was in such danger to be lost , took order , that what was necessary should be written ! Saint Chrysostomes counsell therefore , of accounting the Churches Traditions worthy of belief , we are willing to obey : And if you can of any thing make it appear , that it is Tradition , we will seek no farther . But this we say withall , that we are perswaded you cannot make this appear in any thing , but only the Canon of Scripture , and that there is nothing now extant , and to be known by us , which can put in so good plea , to be the unwritten word of God , as the unquestioned Books of Canonicall Scripture , to be the written word of God. 47 You conclude this Parag. with a sentence of S. Austin's who saies , The Church doth not approve , nor dissemble , nor doe these things which are against Faith or good life : and from hence you conclude , that it never hath done so , nor ever can doe so . But though the argum●●● hold in Logick à non posse , ad non esse , yet I never heard , that it would hold back again , à no nesse , ad non posse . The Church cannot doe this , therefore it does it not , followes with good consequence : but the Church does not this , therefore it shall never doe it , nor can never doe it , this I believe will hardly follow . In the Epistle next before to the same Ianuarius , writing of the same matter , he hath these words , It remaines that the things you enquire of , must be of that third kind of things , which are different in divers places . Let every one therefore doe , that which he findes done in the Church to which he comes , for none of them is against Faith or good manners . And why doe you not inferre from hence , that no particular Church can bring up any Custome that is against faith or good manners ? Certainly this consequence has as good reason for it as the former . If a man say of the Church of England , ( what S. Austine of the Church ) that she neither approves , nor dissembles , nor does any thing against faith or good manners , would you collect presently , that this man did either make or think the Church of England infallible ? Furthermore , it is observable out of this , and the former Epistle , that this Church which did not ( as S. Austine according to you , thought ) approve or dissemble , or doe any thing against faith or good life , did yet tolerate and dissemble vain superstitions , and humane presumptions , and suffer all places to be full of them , and to be exacted , as , nay more severely then the commandements of God himselfe . This S. Austine himselfe professeth in this very Epistle . This ( saith he ) I doe infinitely grieve at , that many most wholsome precepts of the divine Scripture , are little regarded ; and in the mean time , all is so full of so many presumptions , that he is more grievously found fault with , who during his octaves , toucheth the earth with his naked foot , then he that shall bury his soul in drunkennesse . Of these he saies , that they were neither contained in Scripture , decreed by Councells , nor corroborated by the Custome of the Vniversall Church . And though not against faith , yet unprofitable burdens of Christian liberty ; which made the condition of the Iewes more tolerable then that of Christians . And therefore he professes of them , Approbare non possum , I cannot approve them . And ubi facult as tribuitur , resecanda existimo , I think they are to be cut off , wheresoever we have power . Yet so deeply were they rooted , and spread so farre , through the indiscreet devotion of the people , alwaies more prone to superstition then true piety , and through the connivence of the Governors , who should have strangled them at their birth , that himselfe , though he grieved at them , and could not allow them , yet for fear of offence he durst not speak against them , multa hujusmodi propter nonnu●arū vel sanctarū vel turbulentarum personarum scandala devitanda liberius improbare no● audeo . Many of these things for fear of scandalizing many holy persons , or provoking those that are turbulent , I dare not freely d●sallow . Nay , the Catholique Church it selfe , did see and dissemble , and tolerate them ; for these are the things of which he presently saies after , the Church of God ( and you will have him speak of the true Catholique Church ) placed between Chaffe & Tares , tolerates many things . Which was directly against the command of the holy spirit , given the Church by S. Paul ; To stand fast in that liberty wherewith Christ hath made her free , and not to suffer her selfe to be brought in bondage to these servile burdens . Our Saviour tels the Scribes and Pharises , that in vain they worshipped God , teaching for Doctrines mens Commandements : For that laying aside the Commandments of God , they held the Traditions of men , as the washing of pots , and cups , and many other such like things . Certainly that which S. Austine complaines of , as the generall fault of Christians of his time , was paralell to this : Multa ( saith he ) quae in divinis libris saluberrima praecepta sunt , minus curantur ; This I suppose I may very well render in our Saviours words , The commandements of God are laid aside ; and then ; tam multis presumptionibus sic plena sunt omnia , all things , or all places , are so full of so many presumptions , and those exacted with such severity , nay with Tyranny , that he was more severely censur'd , who in the time of his Octaves touched the earth with his naked feet , then hee which dr●wned and buried his soul in drink . Certainly , if this be not to teach for Doctrines mens Commandements , I know not what is . And therefore these superstitious Christians might be said , to worship God in vain , as well as Scribes and Phraises . And yet great variety of superstitions of this kind , were then already spread over the Church , being different in divers places . This is plain from these words of S. Austin of them , diversorum locorum diversis moribus innumerabiliter variantur ; and apparent , because the stream of them was grown so violent , that he durst not opopose it , liberiùs improbare non aude● , I dare not freely speak against them . So that to say , the Catholique Church tolerated all this , and for fear of offence , durst not abrogate or condemne it , is to say ( if we judge rightly of it ) that the Church with silence and connivence generally tolerated Christians to worship God in vain . Now how this tolerating of Vniversall superstition in the Church , can consist with the assistance and direction of Gods omnipotent spirit to guard it from superstition , & with the accomplishment of that pretended prophecy of the Church , I have set watchmen upon thy walls , O Ierusalem , which shall never hold their peace day nor night ; besides how these superstitions being thus noutished , cherished , and strengthened by the practise of the most , and urged with great violence upon others as the commandements of God , and but fearfully opposed or contradicted by any , might in time take such deepe roote , and spread their branches so farre , as to passe for universall Customes of the Church , he that does not see , sees nothing . Especially , considering the catching and contagious nature of this sinne , and how fast ill weeds spread , and how true and experimented that rule is of the Historian , Exempla non consistunt ubi incipiunt , sed quamlib●t in tenuem recepta tramitem latissimè evagandi sibi faciunt potestatem . Nay that some such superstition had not already even in S. Austins time , prevailed so farre , as to be Cons●etudine universae Ecclesiae roboratum , who can doubt that considers , that the practise of Communicating Infants , had even then got the credit , and authority , not only of an uniuersall Custome , but also of an Apostolique Tradition . 48 But ( you will say ) notwithstanding all this , S. Austin here warrants us , that the Church can never either approue or dissemble or practise any thing against faith or goodlife , and so long you may rest securely upon it . Yea , but the same S. Austine tels us in the same place , that the Church may tolerate humane presumptions , and vain superstitions , and those urg'd more severely then the Commandements of God : And whether superstition be a sinne or no , I appeal to our Saviours words before cited , and to the consent of your Schoolmen . Besides if we consider it rightly , we shall finde , that the Church is not truly said only to tolerate these things , but rather , that a part and farre the lesser , tolerated and dissembled them in silence , and a part , & a farre greater publiquely vowed and practis'd them , and urg'd them upon others with great violence , and that continued still a part of the Church . Now why the whole Church might not continue the Church , and yet doe so , as well as a part of the Church might continue a part of it , and yet doe so , I desire you to inform me . 49 But now after all this adoe , what if S. Austine saies not this which is pretended of the Church , viz. That she neither approues , nor dissembles , nor practises any thing against Faith or good life , but onely of good men in the Church ? Certainly , though some Copies read as you would haue it , yet you should not haue dissembled , that others read the place otherwise . viz. Ecclesia multa tolerat , & tamen quae sunt contra Fidem & bonam vitam , nec bonus approbat , &c. The Church tolerates many things ; and yet what is against faith or good life , a good man will neither approue , nor dissemble , nor practise . 50 Ad § 17. That Abraham begat Isaac , is a point very far from being Fundamentall ; and yet I hope you will grant , that Protestants believing Scripture to be the word of God , may bee certain enough of the truth and certainty of it . For what if they say that the Catholique Church , and much more themselues may possibly erre in some unfundamentall points , is it therefore consequent , they can be certaine of none such ? What if a wiser man then I may mistake the sense of some obscure place of Aristotle , may I not therefore without any arrogance or inconsequence , conceiue my selfe certain that I understand him in some plain places , which carry their sense before them ? And then for points Fundamentall , to what purpose doe you say , That we must first know what they be , before we can be assured that wee cannot erre in understanding the Scripture ; when we pretend not at all to any assurance that we cannot erre , but only to a sufficient certainty , that we doe not erre , but rightly understand those things that are plain , whether Fundamentall or not Fundamentall ? That God is , and is a rewarder of them that seek him : That there is no salvation but by faith in Christ : That by repentance and faith in Christ Remission of sinnes may be obtained : That there shall be a Resurrection of the Body : These wee conceive both true , because the Scripture saies so , and Truths Fundamentall , because they are necessary parts of the Gospell , whereof our Saviour saies , Qui non crediderit , damnabitur . All which we either learne from Scripture immediately , or learne of those that learne it of Scripture , so that neither Learned nor Vnlearned pretend to know these things independently of Scripture . And therefore in imputing this to us , you cannot excuse your selfe from having done us a palpable injury . 51 Ad § 18. And I urge you as mainly as you urge D. Potter & other Protestants , that you tell us that all the Traditions , and all the Definitions of the Church are Fundamētal points , & we cannot wrest from you a list in particular of all such Traditions and Definitions ; without which , no man can tell whether or no he erre in points fundamentall , and be capable of salvation ; ( For I hope erring in our fundamentals is no more exclusiue of salvation thē erring in yours . ) And which is most lamentable , insteed of giving us such a Catalogue , you also fall to wrangle among your selues about the making of it ; Some of you , as I haue said aboue , holding somethings to be matters of Faith , which others deny to be so . 52 Ad § 19. I answ . That these differences between Protestants , concerning Errours damnable and not damnable , Truths fundamentall and not fundamentall , may be easily reconcil'd . For either the Errour they speak of may be purely and simply involuntary , or it may be in respect of the cause of it voluntary . If the cause of it be some voluntary and avoidable fault , the Errour is it selfe sinfull , and consequently in its own nature damnable ; As if by negligence in seeking the Truth , by unwillingnesse to finde it , by pride , by obstinacy , by desiring that Religion should be true which sutes best with my ends , by feare of mens ill opinion , or any other worldly feare , or any other worldly hope , I betray my selfe to any error contrary to any divine revealed Truth , that Errour may be justly stiled a sinne , and consequently of it selfe to such a one damnable . But if I be guilty of none of these faults , but be desirous to know the Truth , and diligent in seeking it , and advise not at all with flesh & bloud about the choice of my opinions , but only with God , & that Reason that he hath given me , if I be thus qualifi'd , and yet through humane infirmity fall into errour , that errour cannot be damnable . Again , the party erring may be conceived either to dye with contrition for all his sins known and unknown , or without it ; If he dye without it , this errour in it selfe damnable , will bee likewise so unto him : If he dye with contrition ( as his errour can bee no impediment but he may ) his errour though in it selfe damnable , to him according to your doctrine , will not proue so . And therefore some of those Authors whom you quote , speaking of Errours whereunto men were betrayed , or wherein they were kept by their Fault , or Vice , or Passion ( as for the most part men are : ) Others speaking of them , as errours simply and purely involuntary , and the effects of humane infirmity ; some as they were retracted by Contrition ( to use your own phrase ) others , as they were not , no marvell though they haue past upon them , some a heavier , & some a milder , some an absolving , & some a condemning sentence . The best of all these errours , which here you mention , having malice enough too frequently mixed with it , to sink a man deep enough into hell : and the greatest of them all , being according to your Principles , either no fault at all , or very Veniall , where there is no malice of the will conjoyn'd with it . And if it be , yet as the most malignant poyson , will not poison him that receives with it a more powerfull Antidote : so I am confident your own Doctrine will force you to confesse , that whosoever dies with Faith in Christ , and Contrition for all sinnes known and unknown ( in which heap all his sinfull errours must be compriz'd , ) can no more be hurt by any the most malignant and pestilent errour , then S. Paul by the viper which he shook of into the fire . Now touching the necessity of Repentance from dead works , and Faith in Christ Iesus the Sonne of God , and Saviour of the World , they all agree ; and therefore you cannot deny , but they agree about all that is simply necessary . Moreover , though , if they should goe about to choose out of Scripture all these Propositions & Doctrines which integrate and make up the body of Christian Religion , peradventure there would not be so exact agreement amongst them , as some say there was between the 70. Interpreters , in translating the Old Testament ; yet thus far without controversie they doe all agree , that in the Bible all these things are contained , and therefore , that whosoever does truly and sincerely believe the Scripture , must of necessity either in hypothesi , or at least in thesi , either formally , or at least virtually , either explicitely , or at least implicitely , either in Act or at least in preparation of minde , belieue all things Fundamentall : It being not Fundamentall , nor required of Almighty God , to belieue the true sense of Scripture in all places , but only that we should endeavour to doe so , & be prepar'd in minde to doe so , whensoever it shall be sufficiently propounded to us . Suppose a man in some disease were prescribed a medicine consisting of twenty ingredients , and he advising with Physitians should finde them differing in opinion about it , some of them telling him , that all the ingredients were absolutely necessary ; some , that only some of them were necessary , the rest only profitable , and requisite ad melius esse , lastly some , that some only were necessary , some profitable , and the rest superfluous , yet not hurtfull ; Yet all with one accord agreeing in this , That the whole receipt had in it all things necessary for the recovery of his health , and that if hee made use of it , hee should infallibly finde it successefull : what wise man would not think they agreed sufficiently for his direction to the recovery of his health ? lust so , these Protestant Doctors , with whose discords you make such Tragedies , agreeing in Thesi thus far , that the Scripture evidently containes all things necessary to Salvation , both for matter of Faith and of practise , and that whosoever believes it , and endeavours to finde the true sense of it , and to conform his life unto it , shall certainly performe all things necessary to salvation , and undoubtedly be saved ; agreeing I say thus farre , what matters it for the direction of men to salvation , though they differ in opinion , touching what points are absolutely necessary , and what not ? What Errours absolutely repugnant to Salvation , and what not ? Especially considering that although they differ about the Question of the necessity of these Truths , yet for the most part they agree in this that Truths they are , and profitable at least , though not simply necessary . And though they differ in the Question , whether the contrary Errours be destructive of salvation , or no , yet in this they consent , that Errours they are , & hurtful to Religion , though not destructive of Salvation . Now that which God requires of us is this ; That we should belieue the Doctrines of the Gospell to bee Truths , not all , necessary Truths , for all are not so , and consequently , the repugnant Errours to be falshoods ; yet not all such falshoods , as unavoidably draw with them damnation upon all that hold them , for all doe not so . 53 Yea but you say , it is very requisite we should agree upon a particular Catalogue of Fundamentall points , for without such a Catalogue , no man can be assured whether or no , he hath faith sufficient to salvation . This I utterly deny as a thing evidently false , and I wonder you should content your selfe magisterially to say so , without offering any proof of it . I might much more justly , think it enough barely to deny it , without refutation , but I will not . Thus therefore I argue against it . Without being able to make a Catalogue of Fundamentals , I may be assured of the Truth of this Assertion , if it be true , That the Scripture containes all necessary points of faith , and know that I belieue explicitely all that is exprest in Scripture , and implicitely all that is contained in them : Now he that belieues all this , must of necessity believe all things necessary ; Therefore without being able to make a Catalogue of Fundamentals , I may be assured that I belieue all things necessary , and consequently that my faith is sufficient . I said , of the truth of this Assertion , if it be true : Because I will not here enter into the Question of the truth of it , it being sufficient for my present purpose , that it may be true , and may be believed without any dependance upon a Catalogue of Fundamentalls . And therefore if this be all your reason , to demand a particular Catalogue of Fundamentalls , we cannot but think your demand unreasonable . Especially having your selfe expressed the cause of the difficulty of it , and that is , Because Scripture doth deliver Divine Truths , but seldom qualifies them , or declares whether they be or be not absolutely necessary to salvation . Yet not so seldome , but that out of it I could giue you an abstract of the Essentiall part of Christianity , if it were necessary , but I haue shewed it not so , by confuting your reason , pretended for the necessity of it , & at this time I haue no leasure to doe you curtesies that are so troublesome to my selfe . Yet thus much I will promise , that when you deliver a particular Catalogue of your Church Proposals with one hand , you shall receiue a particular Catalogue of what I conceiue Fundamentall , with the other . For as yet , I see no such faire proceeding as you talke of , nor any performance on your own part of that which so clamorously you require on ours . For as for the Catalogue which he●e you haue given us , in saying . You are obliged under pain of damnation to belieue whatsoever the Catholique visible Church of Christ proposeth as revealed by Almighty God , it is like a covey of one Patridg , or a flock of one sheep , or a Fleet compos'd of one ship , or an Army of one man. The Author of Charity mistaken , demands a particular Catalogue of Fundamentall points ; And We ( say you ) again and again demand such a Catalogue . And surely , if this one Proposition , which here you think to stop our mouthes with , be a Catalogue , yet at least such a Catalogue it is not , and therefore as yet you haue not perform'd what you require . For if to set down such a Propositiō , wherein are compriz'd all points taught by us to be necessary to salvation , will serue you insteed of a Catalogue , you shall haue Catalogues enough . As , we are oblig'd to belieue all under pain of damnation which God commands us to belieue . There 's one Catalogue . We are oblig'd under pain of damnation , to belieue all , whereof we may be sufficiently assured , that Christ taught it his Apostles , his Apostles the Church . There 's another . We are oblig'd under pain of damnation to belieue Gods word , & all contained in it to be true . There 's a third . If these generalities will not satisfie you , but you will be importuning us to tell you in particular , what they are which Christ taught his Apostles , and his Apostles the Church , what points are contained in Gods word ; Then I beseech you doe us reason , and giue us a particular and exact Inventory of all your Church Proposalls , without leaving out , or adding any , such a one which all the Doctors of your Church will subscribe to , & if you receiue not then a Catalogue of Fundamentals , I for my part will giue you leaue to proclaim us Banckrupts . 54 Besides this deceitfull generality of your Catalogue ( as you call it , ) another main fault we finde with it , that it is extreamly ambiguous ; and therefore to draw you out of the clouds , giue me leaue to propose some Questions to you concerning it . I would know therefore , whether by believing , you mean explicitely or implicitely ? If you mean implicitely , I would know whether your Churches infallibility be under pain of damnation to be believed explicitely , or no ? Whether any other point or points besides this , be under the same penalty , to be believed explicitely , or no ? And if any , what they bee ? I would know what you esteem the Proposalls of the Catholike visible Church ? In particular , whether the Decree of a Pope ex Cathedra , that is , with an intent to oblige all Christians by it , be a sufficient and an obliging proposall ? Whether men without danger of damnation may examine such a Decree , and if they think they have just cause , refuse to obey it ? Whether the Decree of a Councell , without the Popes confirmation , be such an obliging proposall , or no ? Whether it be so in case there be no Pope , or in case it be doubtfull who is Pope ? Whether the Decree of a generall Councell confirm'd by the Pope , be such a Proposall , and whether he be an Heretique that thinks otherwise ? Whether the Decree of a particular Councell confirm'd by the Pope , be such a proposall ? Whether the Generall uncondemn'd practise of the Church for some ages be such a sufficient Proposition ? Whether the consent of the most eminent Fathers of any age , agreeing in the affirmation of any doctrine , not contradicted by any of their Contemporaries , be a sufficient Proposition ? Whether the Fathers testifying such or such a doctrine or practise to be Tradition , or to bee the Doctrine or practise of the Church , be a sufficient assurance that it is so ? Whether we be bound under pain of damnation , to belieue every Text of the vulgar Bible , now authoriz'd by the Roman Church , to bee the true translation of the Originalls of the Prophets , and Evangelists , and Apostles , without any the least alteration ? Whether they that lived whē the Bible of Sixtus was set forth , were bound under pain of damnation to believe the same of that ? And if not of that , of what Bible they were bound to believe it ? Whether the Catholique visible Church be alwaies that Society of Christians which adheres to the Bishop of Rome ? Whether every Christian , that hath ability and oportunity , be not bound to endeavour to know explicitely the Proposalls of the Church ? Whether Implicite Faith in the Churches Veracity , will not saue him that Actually and Explicitely disbelieves some doctrine of the Church , not knowing it to be so ; and Actually belieues some damnable Heresie , as that God has the shape of a man ? Whether an ignorant man be bound to believe any point to be decreed by the Church , when his Priest or Ghostly Father assures him it is so ? Whether his Ghostly Father may not erre in telling him so , and whether any man can be oblig'd under pain of damnation , to belieue an Errour ? Whether he be bound to believe such a thing defined , when a number of Priests , perhaps ten or twenty tell him it is so ? And what assurance he can haue , that they neither erre , nor deceive him in this matter ? Why Implicite Faith in Christ , or the Scriptures should not suffice for a mans salvation , as well as implicit faith in the Church ? Whether when you say , Whatsoever the Church proposeth , you meane all that ever she propos'd , or that only which she now proposeth ; and whether shee now proposeth all that ever she did propose ? Whether all the Books of Canonicall Scripture were sufficiently declared to the Church to be so , and propos'd as such by the Apostles ? And if not , from whom the Church had this declaration afterwards ? If so , whether all men ever since the Apostles time , were bound under paine of damnation to believe the Epistle of S. Iames , and the Epistle to the Hebrews to be Canonicall ; at least , not to disbelieve it , & believe the contrary ? Lastly , why it is not sufficient for any mans salvation to use the best meanes he can to inform his conscience , and to follow the direction of it ? To all these demands when you haue given faire and ingenuous answers , you shall heare further from me . 55 Ad § 20. At the first entrance into this Parag. from our own Doctrine , That the Church cannot erre in Points necessary , it is concluded if we are wise , we must for sake it is nothing , least we should for sake it in something necessary . To which I answer , First , that the supposition as you understand it , is falsely impos'd upon us , and as we understand it will doe you no service . For when we say , that there shall be a Church alwaies , some where or other , unerring in Fundamentalls , our meaning is but this , that there shall be alwaies a Church , to the very being whereof it is repugnant that it should erre in fundamentals ; for if it should doe so , it would want the very essence of a Church , and therefore cease to be a Church . But we never annexed this privilege to any one Church of any one Denomination , as the Greek or the Roman Church : which if we had done , and set up some setled certain Society of Christians , distinguishable from all others by adhering to such a Bishop for our Guide in fundamentals , then indeed , and then only might you with some colour , though with no certainty , haue concluded that we could not in wisdome , forsake this Church in any point , for feare of forsaking it in a necessary point . But now that we say not this of any one determinate Church , which alone can perform the office of Guide or Director , but indefinitely of the Church , meaning no more but this , That there shall be alwaies in some place or other , some Church that erres not in Fundamentalls ; will you conclude from hence , that we cannot in wisdome forsake this or that , the Roman or the Greek Church , for feare of erring in Fundamentalls ? 56 Yea , but you may say ( for I will make the best I can of all your Arguments , ) That this Church thus unerring in Fundamentalls , when Luther arose , was by our confession the Roman ; and therefore wee ought not in wisdome to haue departed from it in any thing . I answer : First , that we confesse no such thing , that the Church of Rome was then this Church , but only a Part of it , and that the most corrupted and most incorrigible . Secondly , that if by adhering to the church , we could haue been thus far secured , this Argument had some shew of reason . But seeing wee are not warranted thus much by any privilege of that Church , that She cannot erre fundamentally , but only from Scripture , which assures us that she doth erre very haynously ▪ collect our hope , that the Truths she retaines & the practise of them , may proue an Antidote to her , against the Errors which she maintaines in such Persons , as in simplicity of heart follow this Absalom ; wee should then doe against the light of our conscience , and so sinne damnably if we should not abandon the profession of her Errours though not Fundamentall . Neither can we thus conclude , we may safely hold with the church of Rome in all her points , for she cannot erre damnably ; For this is false , she may , though perhaps she does not : But rather thus , These points of Christianity , which have in thē the nature of Antidotes against the poyson of all sinnes and errours , the Church of Rome , though otherwise much corrupted , still retaines ; therefore wee hope shee erres not fundamentally , but still remaines a Part of the Church . But this can be no warrant to us to think with her in all things : seeing the very same Scripture , which puts us in hope she erres not fundamentally , assures us that in many things , and those of great moment she erres very grievously . And these Errours though to them that believe them , wee hope they will not be pernicious , yet the professing of them against conscience , could not but bring to us certain damnation . As for the feare of departing from some fundamentall truths withall , while we depart from her errours , Happily it might work upon us , if adhering to her might secure us from it , and if nothing else could : But both these are false . For first , adhering to her in all things cannot secure us from erring in Fundamentals : Because though de facto we hope shee does not erre , yet we know no privileges she has but she may erre in them herselfe : and therefore we had need haue better security hereof then her bare Authority . Then secondly , without dependance on her at all , we may be secured that we doe not erre fundamentally ; I meane by believing al those things plainly set down in Scripture , wherein all things necessary , and most things profitable are plainly delivered . Suppose I were travelling to London , and knew two waies thither , the one very safe and convenient , the other very inconvenient , and dangerous , but yet a way to London : and that I overtook a Passenger on the way , who himselfe believed , and would fain perswade me , there was no other way but the worse , and would perswade me to accompany him in it , because I confessed his way , though very inconvenient , yet a way ; so that going that way we could not faile of our journies end , by the consent of both parties : but he believed , my way to be none at all ; & therefore I might justly feare , least out of a desire of leaving the worst way , I left the true , and the only way : If now I should not bee more secure upon my own knowledge , then frighted by this fallacy , would you not beg me for a fool ? Iust so might you think of us , if we would bee frighted out of our own knowledge by this bugbeare . For the only & the main reason why we believe you not to erre in Fundamentalls , is your holding the Doctrines of faith in Christ and Repentance : which knowing we hold as well as you , notwithstanding our departure from you , we must needs know that we doe not erre in Fundamentalls , as well as we know that you doe not erre in some Fundamentals , & therefore cannot possibly feare the contrary . Yet let us be more liberall to you , and grant that which can never be proved , that God had said in plain tearmes , The Church of Rome shall never destroy the Foundation , but with all had said , that it might and would lay much hay and stubble upon it ; That you should never hold any Errour destructive of salvation , but yet many that were prejudiciall to Edification : I demand , might we haue dispensed with our selves in the believing and professing these Errours in regard of the smalnesse of them ? Or had it not been a damnable sinne to doe so , though the Errours in themselves were not damnable ? Had we not had as plain direction to depart frō you in some things profitable , as to adhere to you in things necessary ? In the beginning of your Book , when it was for your purpose to haue it so , the greatnesse or smalnesse of the matter was not considerable , the Evidence of the Revelation was all in all . But here wee must erre with you in small things , for feare of loosing your direction in greater : and for feare of departing too far from you , not goe from you at all , even where we see plainly that you haue departed from the Truth . 57 Beyond all this , I say , that this which you say in wisdome we are to doe , is not only unlawfull , but , if we will proceed according to reason , impossible . I meane to adhere to you in all things , having no other ground for it , but because you are ( as we will now suppose ) Infallible in some things , that is , in Fundamentalls . For , whether by skill in Architecture a large structure may be supported by a narrow foundation , I know not ▪ but sure I am , in reason , no conclusion can be larger then the Principles on which it is founded . And therefore if I consider what I doe , and be perswaded , that your infallibility , is but limited , and particular , and partiall , my adherence upon this ground , cannot possibly be Absolute and Vniversall and Totall . I am confident , that should I meet with such a man amongst you ( as I am well assur'd there be many ) that would grant your Church infallible only in fundamentalls , which what they are he knowes not , and therefore upon this only reason adheres to you in all things : I say that I am confident , that it may be demonstrated , that such a man adheres to you , with a fiduciall and certain assent in nothing . To make this cleare ( because at the first hearing it may seem strange ) give me leave , good Sir , to suppose you the man , and to propose to you a few questions , and to give for you such answers to them , as upon this ground you must of necessity give , were you present with mee . First , supposing you hold your Church infallible in fundamentalls , obnoxious to errour in other things , and that you know not what points are fundamentall , I demand , C. Why doe you believe the doctrine of Transubstantiation ? K. because the Church hath taught it , which is infallible . C. What ? Infallible in all things , or only in Fundamentalls ? K. in Fundamentals only . C. Then in other points She may erre ? K. she may . C. and doe you know what Points are Fundamentall , what not ? K. No , and therefore I believe her in all things , least I should disbelieve her in fundamentalls . C. How know you then , whether this be a fundamentall Point or no ? K. I know not . C. It may be then ( for ought you know ) an unfundamentall point ? K. yes , it may be so . C. And in these you said the Church may erre ? K. yes I did so . C. Then possibly it may erre in this ? K. It may doe so . C. Then what certainty have you , that it does not erre in it ? K. None at all , but upon this supposition , that this is a fundamentall . C. And this supposition you are uncertain of ? K. Yes , I told you so before . C. And therefore , you can have no certainty of that , which depends upon this uncertainty , saving only a suppositive certainty , if it be a fundamentall truth , which is in plain English to say , you are certain it is true , if it be both true and neccessary . Verily Sir , if you have no better faith then this , you are no Catholique . K. Good words I pray ! I am so , and God willing will be so . C. You mean , in outward profession and practise , but in belief you are not , no more then a Protestant is a Catholique . For every Protestant yeelds such a kind of assent to all the proposalls of the Church , for surely they believe them true , if they be fundamentall truths . And therefore you must either believe the Church Infallible in all her proposalls , be they foundations , or be they superstructions , or else you must believe all Fundamentall which shee proposes , or else you are no Catholique . K. But I have been taught , that seeing I believed the Church infallible in points necessary , in wisdome I was to believe her in every thing . C. That was a pretty plausible inducement , to bring you hither , but now you are here , you must goe farther , and believe her infallible in all things , or else you were as good goe back again , which will be a great disparagement to you , and draw upon you both the bitter and implacable hatred of our Part , and even with your own , the imputation of rashnesse and levitie . You see , I hope , by this time , that though a man did believe your Church infallible in Fundamentalls , yet he has no reason to doe you the curtesy , of believing all her proposalls ; nay if he be ignorant what these Fundamentalls are , he has no certain ground to believe her , upon her Authority in any thing . And whereas you say , it can be no imprudence to erre with the Church ; I say , it may be very great imprudence , if the question be , Whether we should erre with the present Church , or hold true with God Almighty . 58 But we are under pain of Damnation to believe and obey her in greater things , and therefore cannot in wisdome suspect her credit in matters of lesse moment , Ans. I have told you already , that this is falsely to suppose , that wee grant that in some certain points , some certain Church is infallibly assisted , and under pain of damnation to be obeyed : whereas all that we say is this , that in some place or other , some Church there shall be , which shall retain all necessary Truths . Yet if your supposition were true , I would not grant your conclusion , but with this exception , unlesse the matter were past suspicion , and apparently certain , that in these things , I cannot believe God , and believe the Church . For then I hope you will grant , that be the thing of never so little moment , were if , for instance , but that S. Paul left his cloak at Troas , yet I were not to gratify the Church so farre , as for her sake to disbelieve what God himselfe has revealed . 59 Whereas you say , Since we are undoubtedly obliged to believe her in Fundamentalls , and cannot know precisely , what those fundamentalls be , we cannot without hazard of our soules leave her in any point ; I ans . First , that this argument proceeds upon the same false ground with the former . And then , that I have told you formerly , that you fear where no fear is ; And though we know not precisely , just how much is Fundamentall , yet we know , that the Scripture containes all Fundamentalls and more too ; and therefore that in believing that , we believe all Fundamentalls and more too . And consequently in departing from you , can be in no danger of departing from that which may prove a Fundamentall truth : For we are well assured that certain Errors can never prove Fundamentall Truths . 60 Whereas you adde , That that visible Church which cannot erre in Fundamentall , propounds all her definitions without distinction to be believed under Anathema's : Ans. Again you begge the question , supposing untruly , that there is , any that Visible Church , I mean any Visible Church of one Denomination , which cannot erre in points Fundamentall . Secondly , proposing definitions to be believed under Anathema's , is no good argument , that the Propounders conceive themselves infallible ; but only , that they conceive the Doctrine they condemne is evidently damnable . A plain proof hereof is this , that particular Councells , nay Particular men , have been very liberall of their Anathema's , which yet were never conceived infallible , either by others or themselves . If any man should now deny Christ to be the Saviour of the world , or deny the Resurrection , I should make no great scruple of Anathematizing his doctrine , and yet am very farre from dreaming of Infallibility . 61 And for the Visible Churches holding it a point necessary to Salvation , that we believe she cannot erre , I know no such tenet ; unlesse by the Church , you mean the Roman Church , which you have as much reason to doe , as that petty King in Africk hath , to think him-himself King of all the world . And therefore your telling us , if she speak true , what danger is it not to believe her ? and if false , that it is not dangerous to believe her , Is somewhat like your Popes setting your Lawyers to dispute whether Constantines Donation were valid or no ; whereas the matter of fact was the farre greater question , whether there were any such Donation , or rather when without question there was none such . That you may not seem to delude us in like manner , make it appear , that the visible Church doth hold so as you pretend : and then whether it be true or false , we will consider afterwards . But for the present , with this invisible tenet of the Visible Church , wee will trouble our selves no farther . 62 The effect of the next Argument is this , I cannot without grievous sinne disobey the Church , unlesse I know she commands those things which are not in her power to command : and how farre this power extends , none can better informe me then the Church . Therefore I am to obey , so farre as the Church requires my obedience . I answer , First , that neither hath the Catholique Church , but only a corrupt part of it declared her selfe , nor required our obedience , in the points contested among us . This therefore is falsely , and vainly supposed here by you , being one of the greatest questions amongst us . Then secondly , that God can better informe us , what are the limits of the Churches power , then the Church her selfe , that is , then the Roman Clergy , who being men subject to the same passions with other men , why they should be thought the best Iudges in their own cause , I doe not well understand ! But yet we oppose against them , no humane decisive Iudges , not any Sect or Person , but only God and his Word . And therefore it is in vain to say , That in following her , you shall be sooner excused , then in following any Sect or Man applying Scriptures against her Doctrine : In as much as we never went about to arrogate to our selves that infallibility or absolute Authority , which we take away from you . But if you would haue spoken to the purpose , you should haue said , that in following her you should sooner haue been excusd , then in cleaving to the Scripture , and to God himselfe . 63 Whereas you say , The fearfull examples of innumerable persons , who for saking the Church , upon pretence of her errours , have failed even in fundamentall points , ought to deterre all Christians from opposing her in any one doctrine or practise ; This is , just as if you should say , divers men have fallen into Scylla , with going too farre from Charybdis , be sure therefore ye keep close to Charybdis : divers leaving Prodigality , have fallen into covetousnesse , therefore be you constant to prodigality ; Many have fallen from worshipping God perversely and foolishly , not to worship him at all , from worshipping many Gods , to worshipping none ; this therefore ought to deterre men , from leaving superstition or Idolatry , for fear of falling into Atheisme and Impiety . This is your counsell and Sophistry : but God saies clean contrary ; Take heed you swerve not , either to the right hand or to the left : you must not doe evill that good may come thereon ; therefore neither that you may avoid a greater evill , you must not be obstinate in a certain error , for fear of an uncertain . What if some , forsaking the Church of Rome , have forsaken Fundamentall truths ? Was this because they forsook the Church of Rome ? No sure , this is causa pro non causa : for else all that have forsaken that Church should have done so , which we say they have not . But because they went too farre from her , the golden mean , the narrow way is hard to be found , and hard to be kept ; hard , but not impossible : hard , but yet you must not please your selfe out of it , though you erre on the right hand , though you offend on the milder part , for this is the only way that leads to life , and few there be that find it . It is true if we said , there were no danger in being of the Roman Church , and there were danger in leaving it , it were madnesse to perswade any man to leave it . But we protest and proclaime the contrary , and that we have very little hope of their Salvation , who either out of negligence in seeking the truth , or unwillingnesse to find it , live and dye in the errors and impieties of that Church : and therefore cannot but conceive those feares to be most foolish , and ridiculous , which perswade men to be constant in one way to hell , least happily if they leave it , they should fall into another . 64 But , Not only others , but even Protestants themselves , whose example ought most to move us , pretending to reforme the Church are come to affirme that she perished for many ages : which D. Potter cannot deny to be a fundamentall errour , against the Article of the Creed , I believe the Catholique Church , seeing he affirmes , the Donatists erred Fundamentally in confining it to Africa . To this I Answer , First , that the errour of the Donatists was not , that they held it possible that some , or many , or most parts of Christendome , might fall away from Christianity , and that the Church may loose much of her amplitude , and be contracted to a narrow compasse in comparison of her former extent : which is prov'd not only possible but certain , by irrefragable experience . For who knowes not , that Gentilisme , and Mahumetisme , mans wickednesse deserving it , and Gods providence permitting it , have prevail'd , to the utter extirpation of Christianity , upon farre the greater part of the world ? And S. Austin when he was out of the heat of Disputation , confesses the Militant Church to be like the Moon , sometimes increasing , and sometimes decreasing . This therefore was no errour in the Donatists , that they held it possible , that the Church , from a larger extent , might be contracted to a lesser : nor that they held it possible to be reduced to Africa ; ( For why not to Africk then , as well as within these few ages , you pretend it was to Europe ? But their error was , that they held de facto , this was done when they had no just ground or reason to doe so : and so upon a vain pretence which they could not justify , seperated themselves from the communion of all other parts of the Church : and that they required it as a necessary condition to make a man a member of the Church , that he should be of their communion , and divide himselfe from all other Communions from which they were divided : which was a condition both unnecessary and unlawfull to be required , and therefore the exacting of it was directly opposite to the Churches Catholicisme ▪ in the very same nature with their Errours who required Circumcision , and the keeping of the Law of Moses as necessary to salvation . For whosoever requires harder or heavier conditions of men , then God requires of them , he it is that is properly an Enemie of the Churches Vniversality , by hindering either Men or Countries from adjoyning themselves to it ; which , were it not for these unnecessary and therefore unlawful conditions , in probability would haue made thē members of it . And seeing the present Church of Rome perswades men they were as good ( for any hope of Salvation they haue ) not to be Christians as not to be Roman Catholiques , believe nothing at all , as not believe all which they impose upon them : Be absolutely out of the Churches Communion , as be out of their Communion , or be in any other , whether they be not guilty of the same crime , with the Donatists & those Zelots of the Mosaicall Law , I leave it to the judgement of those that understand reason ! This is sufficient to shew the vanity of this Argument . But I adde moreover , that you neither haue named those Protestants who held the Church to haue perished for many ages ; who perhaps held not the destruction but the corruption of the church ; not that the true Church , but that the pure Church perished : or rather that the Church perished not from its life and existence , but from its purity and integrity , or perhaps from its splendour and visibility . Neither have you proved by any one reason , but only affirmed it , to be a fundamentall Errour , to hold , that the Church militant may possibly bee driven out of the world , and abolished for a time from the face of the earth . 65 But to accuse the Church of any Errour in faith , is to say , she lost all faith : For this is the Doctrine of Catholique Divines , that one Errour in faith destroyes faith . To which I answer , that to accuse the Church of some Errour in faith , is not to say she lost all faith : For this is not the doctrine of Catholique Divines ; But that he which is an Heretique in one Article , may haue true faith of other Articles . And the contrary is only said and not shewed in Charity Mistaken . 66 Ad § 21. D. Potter saies , We may not depart from the Church absolutely , and in all things : and from hence you conclude : Therefore we may not depart from it in any thing . And this Argument you call a Demonstration . But a Fallacy , à dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid , was not used heretofore to be called a Demonstration . D. Potter sayes not , that you may not depart from any opinion or any practise of the Church : for you tell us in this very place , that he saies , even the Catholique may erre : and every man may lawfully depart from Errour . He only sayes , you may not cease to be of the Church , nor depart from those things which make it so to be ; and from hence you inferre a necessity of forsaking it in nothing . Iust as if you should argue thus : You may not leaue your friend or brother , therefore you may not leave the Vice of your friend , or the Errour of your brother . What he saies of the Catholique Church , p. 75. the same hee extends presently after , to every true , though never so corrupted part of it . And why doe you not conclude from hence , that no particular Church ( according to his judgement ) can fall into any Errour , and call this a Demonstration too ? For as he saies , p. 75. That there can be no just cause to depart from the whole Church of Christ , no more then from Christ himselfe ; So p. 76. He tells you , that whosoever forsakes any one true member of this body , for sakes the whole . So that what he saies of the one , hee saies of the other ; and tells you , that neither Vniversall nor Particular Church , so long as they continue so , may bee forsaken , hee meanes , Absolutely , no more then Christ himselfe may be forsaken absolutely : For the Church is the body of Christ , and whosoever forsakes either the Body , or his coherence to any one part of it , must forsake his subordination , and relation to the Head. Therefore whosoever forsakes the Church , or any Christian , must forsake Christ himselfe . 67 But then he tells you plainly in the same place , That it may be lawfull and necessary to depart from a Particular Church in some Doctrines and Practises : And this he would haue said even of the Catholike Church , if there had been occasion , but there was none . For there he was to declare and justifie our departure , not from the Catholique Church , but the Roman , which we maintain to be a particular Church . But in other places , you confesse his doctrine to be , that even the Catholique church may erre in points not Fundamentall ; which you doe not pretend that he ever imputed to Christ himselfe . And therefore you cannot with any candor interpret his words , as if he had said , We may not forsake the Church in any thing , no more then Christ himselfe : but only thus , We may not cease to be of the Church , nor forsake it absolutely and totally , no more then Christ himselfe . And thus we see sometimes a mountain may travail , and the production may be a mouse . 68 Ad § 22. But D. Potter , either contradicts himselfe , or else must grant the Church infallible ; Because he saies , if we did not differ from the Roman , we could not agree with the Catholique : which saying supposes the Catholique Church cannot erre . Answer , This Argument , to giue it the right name , is an obscure and intricate nothing . And to make it appeare so , let us suppose , in contradiction to your supposition , either that the Catholique Church may erre , but doth not , but that the Roman actually doth : or that the Catholique Church doth erre in some few things , but that the Roman erres in many more . And is it not apparent in both these cases ( which yet both suppose the Churches Fallibility ) a man may truly say , unlesse I dissent in some opinions from the Roman Church , I cannot agree with the Catholique ? Either therefore you must retract your imputation laid upon D. Potter , or doe that which you condemne in him , and be driven to say , that the same man may hold some errours with the Church of Rome , and at the same time with the Catholique Church not hold but condemne them . For otherwise in neither of these cases is it possible for the same man at the same time , to agree both with the Roman and the Catholique . 69 In all these Texts of Scripture , which are here alleaged in this last Section of this Chapter , or in any one of them , or in any other , doth God say cleerly and plainly , The Bishop of Rome and that Society of Christians which adheres to him shall bee ever the infallible guide of Faith ? You will confesse , I presume , he doth not , and will pretend , it was not necessary . Yet if the King should tell us the Lord Keeper should judge such and such causes , but should either not tell us at all , or tell us but doubtfully who should be Lord Keeper , should we be any thing the neerer for him to an end of contentions ? Nay rather would not the dissentions about the Person who it is , increase contentions , rather then end them ? Iust so it would have been , if God had appointed a Church tobe judge of Controversies , and had not told us which was that Church . Seeing therefore God does nothing in vain and seeing it had been in vain , to appoint a judge of Controversies , and not to tell us plainly who it is , and seeing lastly , he hath not told us plainly , no not at all who it is , is it not evident he hath appointed none ? Ob. But ( you will say perhaps ) if it be granted once , that some Church of one denomination , is the infallible guide of faith , it will be no difficult thing to prove , that yours is the Church , seeing no other Church pretends to be so . Ans. Yes , the Primitive and the Apostolique Church pretends to be so . That assures us , that the spirit was promised , and given to them , to lead them into all saving truth , that they might lead others . Ob. But that Church is not now in the world , and how then , can it pretend to be the guide of Faith ? Ans. It is now in the world sufficiently , to be our guide : not by the Persons of those men that were members of it , but by their Writings which doe plainly teach us , what truth they were led into , and so lead us into the same truth . Ob. But these writings , were the writings of some particular men , and not of the Church of those times : how then doth that Church guide us by these writings ? Now these places shew that a Church is to be our guide , therefore they cannot be so avoided . Ans. If you regard the conception and production of these writings , they were the writings of particular men : But if you regard the Reception , and approbation of them , they may be well called the writings of the Church , as having the attestation of the Church , to have been written by those that were inspired , and directed by God. As a statute , though pen'd by some one man , yet being ratified by the Parliament , is called the Act , not of that man , but of the Parliament . Ob. But the words seem cleerly enough to prove , that the Church , the Present Church of every Age , is Vniversally infallible . Ans. For my part , I know I am as willing and desirous , that the Bishop or Church of Rome should be infallible , ( provided I might know it ) as they are to be so esteemed . But he that would not be deceived must take heed , that he take not his desire that a thing should be so , for a reason that it is so . For if you look upon Scripture , through such spectacles as these , they will appeare to you , of what colour pleases your fancies best : and will seem to say , not what they doe say , but what you would have them . As some say the Manna , wherewith the Israelites were fed in the Wildernesse , had in every mans mouth , that very tast which was most agreeable to his palate . For my part I professe , I have considered them a thousand times , and have looked upon them ( as they say , ) on both sides , and yet to me they seeme to say no such matter . 70 Not the First . For the Church may erre , and yet the gates of Hell not prevail against her . It may erre , and yet continue still a true Church , and bring forth Children unto God , and send soules to Heaven . And therefore this can doe you no service , without the plain begging of the point of Question . viz. That every errour is one of the gates of Hell. Which we absolutely deny , and therefore , you are not to suppose , but to prove it . Neither is our denyall without reason . For seeing you doe , and must grant , that a particular Church , may hold some errour , and yet be still a true member of the Church : why may not the Vniversall Church , hold the same errour , and yet remain the true Vniversall ? 71 Not the Second or Third . For the spirit of Truth , may be with a Man , or a Church for ever , and teach him all Truth : And yet he may fall into some errour , if this , all , be not simply all , but all of some kind : which you confesse to be so unquestioned and certain , that you are offended with D. Potter , for offering to prove it . Secondly , he may fall into some errour , even contrary to the truth which is taught him , if it be taught him only sufficiently , and not irresistibly , so that he may learne it if he will , not so that he must and shall , whether he will or no. Now who can ascertain me , that the spirits teaching is not of this nature ? Or how can you possibly reconcile it , with your doctrine of free-will in believing , if it be not of this nature ? Besides , the word in the Originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which signifies , to be a guide and director only , not to compell or necessitate . Who knowes not , that a guide may set you in the right way , and you may either negligently mistake , or willingly leave it ? And to what purpose doth God complain so often , and so earnestly of some , that had eyes to see and would not see , that stopped their eares , and closed their eyes , least they should hear and see ? Of others that would not understand , least they should doe good : that the light shined , and the darknesse comprehended it not : That he came unto his own , and his own received him not : That light came into the world , and men loved darknesse more then light ? To what purpose should he wonder , so few believed his report , and that to so few his arme was revealed : And that when he comes , he should find no faith upon earth ; If his outward teaching were not of this nature , that it might be followed , and might be resisted ? And if it be , then God may teach , and the Church not learn : God may lead , and the Church be refractory and not follow . And indeed , who can doubt , that hath not his eyes vailed with prejudice that God hath taught the Church of Rome plain enough in the Ep. to the Corinthians , that all things in the Church are to be done for edification , and that , in any publique Prayers , or Thanks-givings , or Hymnes , or Lessons of instruction , to use a language , which the assistants generally understand not , is not for edification ? Though the Church of Rome will not learne this , for feare of confessing an errour , and so overthrowing her Authority , yet the time will come , when it shall appeare , that not only by Scripture , they were taught this sufficiently , and commanded to believe , but by reason and common sense . And so for the Communion ▪ in both kindes , who can deny but they are taught it by our Saviour Iohn 6. in these words , according to most of your own expositions , Vnlesse you eat the Flesh of the sonne of Man , and drink his Blood , you have no life in you . ( If our Saviour speake there of the Sacrament , as to them he does , because they conceive he does so . ) Though they may pretend , that receiving in one kind , they receive the blood together with the body , yet they can with no face pretend that they drink it : And so obey not our Saviours injunction according to the letter , which yet they professe is litterally , alwaies to be obeyed , unlesse some impiety , or some absurdity force us to the contrary : and they are not yet arrived to that impudence to pretend , that either there is impiety or absurdity in receiving the Communion in both kinds . This therefore they if not others , are plainly taught by our Saviour in this place . But by S. Paul all without exception , when he saies , Let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of this bread and drinke of this Chalice . This ( a Man ) that is to examine himselfe , is every man , that can doe it : as is confessed on all hands . And therefore it is all one , as if he had said , let every man examine himselfe , and so let him eat of this bread , and drink of this cup. They which acknowledge Saint Pauls Epistles , and S. Iohns Gospell to be the Word of God , one would thinke should not deny , but that they are taught these two Doctrines plain enough . Yet we see they neither doe , nor will learn them . I conclude therefore , that the spirit may very well teach the Church , and yet the Church fall into and continue in Error , by not regarding what she is taught by the Spirit . 72 But all this I have spoken upon a supposition only , and shewed unto you , that though these promises , had been made unto the present Church of every age ( I might have said though they had been to the Church of Rome by name , ) yet no certainty of her Vniversall infallibility could be built upon them . But the plain truth is , that these Promises are vainly arrogated by you , and were never made to you , but to the Apostles only . I pray deale ingenuously and tell me , who were they of whom our Saviour saies , These things have I spoken unto you , being present with you . c. 14. 25. But the comforter , shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have told you v. 26 ? Who are they to whom he saies , I goe away and come again unto you ; and I have told you before it come to passe : v. 28. 29. You have been with me from the beginning : c. 15. v. 27 ? And again , these things I have told you , that when the time shall come , you may remember that I told you of them : and these things I said not to you at the begining , because I was with you . c. 16. 4. And because I said these things unto you , sorrow hath filled your hearts . v. 6 ? Lastly , who are they of whom he saith v. 12. I have yet many things to say unto you , but yee cannot beare them now ? Doe not all these circumstances appropriate this whole discourse of our Saviour to his Disciples , that were then with him , and consequently , restrain the Promises of the spirit of truth , which was to lead them into all truth , to their Persons only ? And seeing it is so , is it not an impertinent arrogance and presumption , for you to lay claim unto them , in the behalfe of your Church ? Had Christ been present with your Church ? Did the Comforter bring these things to the Remembrance of your Church , which Christ had before taught and she had forgotten ? Was Christ then departing from your Church ? And did he tell of his departure before it came to passe ? Was your Church with him from the begining ? Was your Church filled with sorrow , upon the mentioning of Christs departure ? Or lastly , did he , or could he have said to your Church , which then was not extant , I have yet many things to say unto you , but ye cannot beare them now ? as he speaks in the 13. v. immediatly before the words by you quoted . And then goes on , Howbeit when the spirit of truth is come , he will guide you into all Truth . Is it not the same You he speaks to , in the 13. v. and that he speaks to in the 14 ? And is it not apparent to any one that has but halfe an eye , that in the 13. he speaks only to them that then were with him ? Besides in the very text by you alleaged , there are things promised , which your Church cannot with any modesty pretend to . For there it is said , the spirit of Truth , not only will guide you into all Truth , but also will shew you things to come . Now your Church ( for ought I could ever understand ) does not so much as pretend to the spirit of Prophecie , and knowledge of future events : And therefore hath as little cause to pretend to the former promise , of being led by the spirit into all truth . And this is the Reason , why both You in this place , and generally , your Writers of Controversies , when they entreat of this Argument , cite this Text perpetually by halfes , there being in the latter part of it , a cleere , and convincing Demonstration , that you have nothing to doe with the former . Vnlesse you will say , which is most ridiculous , that when our Saviour said , He will teach you &c. and he will shew you &c. He meant one You in the former clause , and another You in the latter . 73 Ob. But this is to confine Gods spirit to the Apostles only , or to the Disciples , that then were present with him : which is directly contrary to many places of Scripture . Ans. I confesse , that to confine the Spirit of God to those that were then present with Christ is against Scripture . But I hope it is easy to conceive a difference , between confining the Spirit of God to them : and confining the promises made in this place to them . God may doe many things which he does not promise at all : much more , which he does not promise in such or such a place . 74 Ob. But it is promised in the 14. Chap. that this spirit shall abide with them for ever : Now they in their persons were not to abide for ever , and therefore the Spirit could not abide with them , in their Persons for ever , seeing the coexistence of two things , supposes of necessity ; the existence of either . Therefore the promise was not made to them only in their Persons , but by them to the Church , which was to abide for ever . Ans. Your Conclusion is , not to them only , but your Reason concludes , either nothing at all , or that this Promise of abiding with them for ever , was not made to their Persons at all ; or if it were , that it was not performed . Or if you will not say ( as I hope you will not ) that it was not performed , nor that it was not made to their Persons at all ; then must you grant , that the word for ever , is here used in a sense restrained , and accommodated to the subject here entreated of ; and that it signifies , not eternally , without end of time , but perpetually without interruption , for the time of their liues . So that the force , and sense of the Words is , that they should never want the Spirits asstance , in the performance of their function : And that the Spirit would not ( as Christ was to doe , ) stay with them for a time , and afterwards leave them , but would abide with them , if they kept their station , unto the very end of their lives , which is mans for ever . Neither is this use of the word , for ever , any thing strange , either in our ordinary speech , wherein we use to say , this is mine for ever , this shall be yours for ever , without ever dreaming of the Eternity , either of the thing or Persons . And then in Scripture , it not only will bear , but requires this sense very frequently , as Exod. 21. 6. Deut. 15. 17. his master shall boar his eare through with an awle , and he shall serve him for ever . Ps. 52. 9. I will praise thee for ever . Ps. 61. 4. I will abide in thy Tabernacle for ever . Ps. 119. 111. Thy Testimonies have I taken as mine heritage for ever : and lastly in the Epist. to Philemon , He therefore departed from thee for a time , that thou shouldest receive him for ever . 75 And thus , I presume , I have shewed sufficiently , that this for ever , hinders not , but that the promise may be appropriated to the Apostles , as by many other circumstances I have evinc'd it must be . But what now , if the place produced by you , as a main pillar of your Churches infallibility , prove upon tryall , an engine to batter and overthrow it , at least , ( which is all one to my purpose ) to take away all possibility of our assurāce of it ? This will seem strange newes to you at first hearing , & not farre from a prodigy . And I confesse , as you here in this place , and generally all your Writers of controversy , by whom this text is urged , order the matter , it is very much disabled , to doe any service against you in this question . For with a bold sacriledge , and horrible impiety , somewhat like Procrustes his cruelty , you perpetually cut off the head and foot , the begining and end of it ; and presenting to your confidents , who usually read no more of the Bible , then is alleadged by you , only these words , I will ask my Father , and he shall give you another Paraclete , that he may abide with you for ever , even the spirit of Truth , conceale in the mean time , the words before , and the words after ; that so , the promise of Gods Spirit , may seem to be absolute , whereas it is indeed most cleerely and expresly conditionall : being both in the words before , restrained to those only , that love God and keep his Commandements : and in the words after , flatly denyed to all , whom the Scriptures stile by the name of the World , that is , as the very Atheists give us plainly to understand , to all wicked and worldly men . Behold the place entire , as it is set down in your own Bible . If ye love mee keep my Commandements , and I will aske my Father , and he shall give you another Paraclete , that he may abide with you for ever , even the spirit of the Truth , whom the world cannot receive . Now from the place there restored and vindicated from your mutilation , thus I argue against your pretence . We can have no certainty of the infallibility of your Church , but upon this supposition , that your Popes are infallible in confirming with the Decrees of Generall Councells : we can have no certainty hereof , but upon this supposition , that the Spirit of truth is promised to him , for his direction in this work . And of this again we can have no certainty , but upon supposall , that he performes the condition , whereunto the promise of the spirit of truth is expresly limited , viz. That he love God and keep his Commandements ; and of this finally , not knowing the Popes heart , we can have no certainty at all ; therefore from the first to the last , we can have no certainty at all of your Churches infallibility . This is my first argument : Frō this place another followes , which will charge you as home as the former . If many of the Roman See , were such men as could not receive the spirit of Truth , even men of the World , that is Worldly , Wicked , Carnall , Diabolicall men , then the Spirit of Truth , is not here promised , but flatly denied them : and consequently we can have no certainty , neither of the Decrees of Councells , which these Popes confirme , nor of the Churches infallibility , which is guided by these decrees : But many of the Roman See , even by the confession of the most zealous defenders of it , were such men : therefore the spirit of truth is not here promised but denyed them , and consequently we can have no certainty , neither of the Decrees which they confirme , nor of the Churches infallibility , which guides herselfe by these Decrees . 76 You may take as much time as you think fit , to answer these Arguments . In the mean while I proceed to the consideration of the next text alleaged for this purpose by you : out of S. Paul 1. Ep. to Timothy : where he saith , as you say the Church is the Pillar and ground of truth . But the truth is you are somewhat to bold with S. Paul. For he saies not in formall termes , what you make him say , the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth , neither is it certain that he meanes so : for it is neither impossible nor improbable , that these words the pillar and ground of truth , may have reference not to the Church , but to Timothy , the sense of the place that thou maist know how to behave thy selfe , as a pillar and ground of truth , in the Church of God , which is the house of the living God , which exposition offers no violence at all to the words , but only supposes an Ellipsis of the Particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the greek very ordinary . Neither wants it some likelihood , that S. Paul comparing the Church to a house , should here exhort Timothy , to carry himself , as a Pillar in that house should doe , according as he had given other Principall men in the Church , the name of Pillars ; rather then , having called the Church a House , to call it presently a Pillar ; which may seem somewhat heterogeneous . Yet if you will needs have S. Paul referre this not to Timothy but the Church , I will not contend about it any farther , then to say , possibly it may be otherwise . But then secondly , I am to put you in mind , that the Church which S. Paul here speaks of , was that in which Timothy conversed , and that was a Particular Church , and not the Roman ; and such you will not have to be Vniversally Infallible . 77 Thirdly , if we grant you out of curtesy ( for nothing can enforce us to it ) that he both speaks of the Vniversall Church , and saies this of it , then I am to remember you , that many Attributes in Scripture , are not notes of performance , but of duty , and teach us not what the thing or Person is of necessity , but what it should be . Ye are the salt of the Earth , said our Saviour to his disciples : not that this quality was inseparable from their Persons , but because it was their office to be so . For if they must have been so of necessity , and could not have been otherwise , in vain had he put them in fear of that which followes , If the salt hath lost his savour , wherewith shall it be salted ? it is thenceforth good for nothing , but to be cast forth , and to be trodden under foot . So the Church may bee by duty , the pillar and ground , that is , the Teacher of Truth , of all truth , not only necessary but profitable to salvation ; and yet she may neglect and violate this duty , and be in fact the teacher of some Errour . 78 Fourthly and lastly , if we deal most liberally with you , and grant that the Apostle here speaks of the Catholique Church , calls it the Pillar and ground of Truth , and that not only because it should , but because it alwaies shall and will be so , yet after all this , you have done nothing ; your bridge is too short , to bring you to the bank where you would be , unlesse you can shew that by truth here , is certainly meant , not only all necessary to salvation , but all that is profitable , absolutely and simply All. For that the true Church alwaies shall bee the maintainer and teacher of all necessary truth , you know we grant and must grant , for it is of the essence of the Church to be so , and any company of men were no more a Church without it , then any thing can be a man , and not be reasonable . But as a man may be still a man , though he want a hand or an eye , which yet are profitable parts , so the Church may be still a Church , though it be defective in some profitable truth . And as a man may be a man , that has some biles and botches on his body , so the Church may be the Church , though it have many corruptions both in doctrine and practice . 79 And thus you see we are at liberty from the former places ; having shewed that the sense of them , either must or may be such as will doe your Cause no service . But the last you suppose , will be a Gordian knot , and ties us fast enough : The words are , He gave some Apostles , and some Prophets &c. to the consummation of Saints , to the work of the Ministry &c. Vntill we all meet into the Vnity of faith &c. That we be not hereafter Children , wavering and carried up and downe with every wind of Doctrine . Out of which words , this is the only argument which you collect , or I can collect for you . There is no meanes to conserve unity of Faith , against every wind of Doctrine , unlesse it be a Church universally infallible . But it is impious to say there is no meanes to conserue unity of faith against every wind of Doctrine : Therefore there must be a Church Vniversally Infallible . Whereunto I answere , that your major is so farre from being confirned , that it is plainly confuted , by the place alleadged . For that tels us of another meanes for this purpose , to wit , the Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists , and Pastors , and Doctors , which Christ gave upon his Ascention , and that their consummating the Saints , doing the work of the Ministry , and Edifying the body of Christ , was the meanes to bring those ( which are there spoken of , be they who they will , ) to the unity of Faith , and to perfection in Christ , that they might not be wavering , and carried about , with every wind of false Doctrine . Now the Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists , and Pastors , and Doctors , are not the present Church ; therefore the Church is not the only means for this end , nor that which is here spoken of . 80 Peradventure by , he gave , you conceive , is to be understood , he promised that he would give unto the worlds end . But what reason have you for this conceipt ? Can you shew that the word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hath this signification in other places , and that it must have it in this place ? Or will not this interpretation drive you presently to this blasphemous absurdity , that God hath not performed his promise ? Vnlesse you will say , which for shame I think you will not , that you have now , and in all ages since Christ have had Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists : for as for Pastors , and Doctors alone , they will not serve the turne . For if God promised to give all these , then you must say he hath given all , or else that he hath broke his promise . Neither may you pretend , that the Pastors and Doctors were the same with the Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists , and therefore having Pastors and Doctors , you have all . For it is apparent , that by these names , are denoted severall Orders of men , cleerely distinguished and diversified by the Originall Text ; but much more plainly by your own Translations , for so you read it , some Apostles , and some Prophets , and other some Evangelists , and other some Pastors and Doctors : and yet more plainly in the paralell place , 1. Cor. 12. to which we are referr'd by your Vulgar Translation , God hath set some in the Church , first Apostles , secondarily Prophets , thirdly Teachers , therefore this subterfuge is stopped against you . Ob. But how can they , which died in the first Age , keep us in Vnity , and guard us from Errour , that live now , perhaps in the last ? This seemes to be all one ; as if a man should say , that Alexander , or Iulius Caesar should quiet a mutiny in the King of Spaines Army . Ans. I hope you will grant , that Hippocrates , and Galen , and Euclid , and Aristotle , and Salust , and Caesar , and Livie , were dead many ages since ; and yet that we are now preserved from error by them , in a great part of Physick , of Geometry , of Logick , of the Roman story . But what if these men had writ by divine Inspiration , and writ compleat bodies of the Sciences they professed , and writ them plainly and perspicuously ? You would then have granted , I believe , that their works had been sufficient to keep us from errour , and from dissention in these matters . And why then should it be incongruous to say , that the Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists , and Pastors , and Doctors , which Christ gave upon his ascention , by their writings , which some of them writ but all approved , are even now sufficient meanes , to conserve us in Vnity of faith , and guarde us from errour ? Especially seeing these writings are , by the confession of all parts , true and divine , and as we pretend and are ready to prove , contain a plain and perfect Rule of Faith ; and as the * Chiefest of you acknowledge , contain immediatly , all the Principall , and Fundamentall points of Christianity , referring us to the Church and Tradition only for some minute particularities . But tell me I pray , the Bishops that composed the Decrees of the Councell of Trent , and the Pope that confirmed them , are they meanes to conserve you in Unity , and keepe you from Error , or are they not ? Peradventure you will say , their Decree● are , but not their Persons : but you will not deny I hope , that you owe your Vnity , and freedome from Error , to the Persons that made these Decrees : neither will you deny , that the writings which they have left behind them , are sufficient for this purpose . And why may not then the Apostles writings be as fit for such a purpose , as the Decrees of your Doctors ? Surely their intent in writing was to conserve us in Vnity of Faith , and to keep us from errour , and we are sure God spake in them ; but your Doctors from whence they are , we are not so certain . Was the Holy-Ghost then unwilling , or unable to direct them so , that their writings should be fit and sufficient to attain that end they aimed at in writing ? For if he were both able and willing to doe so , then certainly he did doe so . And then their writings may be very sufficient meanes , if we would use them as we should doe , to preserve us in Vnity , in all necessary points of Faith , and to guard us from all pernitious Error . 81 If yet you be not satisfied , but will still pretend that , all these words by you cited , seem clearly enough to prove , that the Church is Vniversally infallible , without which Vnity of Faith could not be conserved against every wind of Doctrine : I Ans. That to you , which will not understand , that there can be any meanes to conserve the Vnity of Faith , but only that which conserves your authority over the Faithfull , it is no marvell that these words seem to prove , that the Church , nay that your Church is universally infallible . But we that have no such end , no such desires , but are willing to leave all men to their liberty , provided they will not improve it to a Tyranny over others , we find it no difficulty to discern between dedit and promisit , he gave at his Ascention , and he Promised to the worlds end . Besides , though you whom it concernes , may happily flatter your selves , that you have not only Pastors , and Doctors , but Prophets , and Apostles , and Evangelists , and those distinct from the former still in your Church ; yet we that are disinteressed persons , cannot but smile at these strange imaginations . Lastly , though you are apt to think your selves such necessary instruments for all good purposes , and that nothing can be well done unlesse you doe it ; that no unity or constancy in Religion can be maintained , but inevitably Christendome must fall to ruine , and confusion , unlesse you support it : yet we that are indifferent and impartiall , and well content , that God should give us his owne favours , by means of his own appointment , not of our choosing , can easily collect out of these very words , that not the infallibility of your , or of any Church , but the Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists &c. which Christ gave upon his Ascention , were designed by him , for the compasing all these excellent purposes , by their preaching while they lived , and by their writings for ever . And if they faile hereof , the Reason is not any insufficiency or invalidity in the meanes , but the voluntary perversenesse of the subjects they have to deal with : who , if they would be themselves , and be content that others should be , in the choice of their Religion the servants of God and not of men ; if they would allow , that the way to heaven is no narrower now , then Christ left it , his yoak no heavier then he made it ; that the belief of no more difficulties , is required now to Salvation , then was in the Primitive Church ; that no errour is in it selfe destructive , and exclusive from Salvation now , which was not then ; if instead of being zealous Papists , earnest Calvinists , rigid Lutherans , they would become themselves , and be content that others should be plain and honest Christians ; if all men would believe the Scripture , and freeing themselves from prejudice and passion , would syncerely endeavour to finde the true sense of it , and live according to it , and require no more of others , but to doe so ; nor denying their ▪ Communion to any that doe so , would so order their publique seruice of God , that all which doe so may without scruple , or hypocrisy , or protestation against any part of it , joyne with them in it : who does not see that ( seeing as we suppose here , and shall prove hereafter , ) all necessary truths , are plainly and evidently set down in Scripture , there would of necessity be among all men , in all things necessary , Vnity of Opinion ? And notwithstāding any other differences that are or could be , Vnity of Communion and Charity and mutuall toleration ? By which meanes , all Schisme and Heresy , would be banished the world , and those wretched contentions which now rend and teare in pieces , not the coat , but the members and bowels of Christ , which mutuall pride and Tyranny , and cursing , and killing , and damning , would fain make immortall , should speedily receive a most blessed catastrophe . But of this hereafter , when we shall come to the question of Schisme , wherein I perswade my selfe , that I shall plainly shew , that the most vehement accusers , are the greatest offenders , and that they are indeed at this time , the greatest Schismatiques , who make the way to heaven narrower , the yoak of Christ heavier , the differences of Faith greater , the conditions of Ecclesiasticall government harder , and stricter , then they were made at the begining by Christ and his Apostles : they who talk of Unity , but aime at Tyranny , and will have peace with none , but with their slaves and vassals . In the mean while , though I have shewed how Vnity of Faith , & Vnity of Charity too , may be preserved without your Churches infallibility , yet seeing you modestly conclude from hence , not that your Church is , but only seemes to be universally infallible , meaning to your selfe , of which you are a better judge then I : Therefore I willingly grant your conclusion , and proceed . 82 Whereas you say , That D. Potter limits those promises and privileges to fundamentall points : The truth is , with some of them hee meddles not at all , neither doth his Adversary giue him occasion : Not with those out of the Epistle to Timothy , and to the Ephesians . To the rest he giues other answer besides this . 83 But the words of Scripture by you alleaged are Vniversall , and mention no such restraint to Fundamentals , as D. Potter applies to them : I answer , That of the fiue Texts which you alleage , four are indefinite , and only one universall , and that you confesse is to be restrained , and are offended with D. Potter for going about to proue it . And Whereas you say , they mention no restraint , intimating that therefore they are not to be restrained , I tell you , this is no good consequence ; for it may appeare out of the matter and circumstances , that they are to be understood in a restrained sense , notwithstanding no restraint be mentioned . That place quoted by S. Paul , and applied by him to our Saviour , He hath put all things under his feet , mentions no exception ; yet S. Paul tels us , not only that it is true or certain , but it is manifest , that He is excepted which did put all things under him . 84 But your interpretation is better then D. Potters , because it is literall . I answer , His is Literall as well as yours : and you are mistaken if you think a restrained sense may not be a literall sense ; for to Restrained , Literall is not opposed but unlimited or absolute , and to Literall , is not oppos'd Restrained , but Figuratiue . 85 Whereas you say D. Potters Brethren reiecting his limitation , restrain the mentioned Texts to the Apostles , implying hereby a contrariety between them and him : I answer , So does D. Potter restrain all of them which he speaks of , in the pages by you quoted , to the Apostles , in the direct and primary sense of the words . Though he tels you there , the words in a more restrained sense are true , being understood of the Church Vniversall . 86 As for your pretence , That to finde the meaning of those places , you conferre divers Texts , you consult Originals , you examin Translations , and use all the meanes by Protestants appointed , I haue told you before , that all this is vain and hypocriticall , if ( as your manner & your doctrine is ) you giue not your selfe liberty of judgement in the use of these meanes ; if you make not your selves Iudges of ▪ but only Advocats for the doctrine of your Church , refusing to see what these meanes shew you , if it any way make against the doctrine of your Church , though it be as cleare as the light at noone . Remoue prejudice , Even the ballance , and hold it even , make it indifferent to you which way you goe to heaven , so you goe the true , which Religion be true so you be of it , then use the meanes and pray for Gods assistance , and as sure as God is true , you shall be lead into all necessary Truth . 87 Whereas you say , you neither doe , nor haue any possible meanes to agree , as long as you are left to your selues : The first is very true , That while you differ , you doe not agree . But for the second , That you haue no possible means of agreement , as long as you are left to your selues , i. e. to your own reasons and judgement , this sure is very false , neither doe you offer any proofe of it , unlesse you intended this , that you doe not agree , for a proof that you cannot ; which sure is no good consequence , not halfe so good as this which I oppose against it : D. Potter and I by the use of these meanes by you mentioned doe agree concerning the sense of these places , therefore there is a possible meanes of agreement , and therefore you also if you would use the same meanes , with the same minds , might agree so farre as it is necessary , and it is not necessary that you should agree further . Or if there bee no possible meanes to agree about the sense of these Texts , whilst wee are left to our selves , then sure it is impossible that we should agree in your sense of them which was : That the Church is universally infallible . For if it were possible for us to agree in this sense of them , then it were possible for us to agree . And why then said you of the selfe same Texts but in the page next before , These words seem cleerly enough to proue that the Church is Vniversally infallible , A strange forgetfulnesse , that the same man , almost in the same breath should say of the same words , They seem cleerly enough to proue such a conclusion true , & yet that three indifferent men , all presum'd to be lovers of Truth , and industrious searchers of it should haue no possible meanes , while they follow their own reason to agree in the Truth of this Conclusion ! 88 Whereas you say , that it were great impiety to imagine that God , the lover of Soules , hath left no certaine infallible meanes to decide both this and all other differences arising about the interpretation of Scripture , or upon any other occasion : I desire you to take heed , you commit not an impiety in making more impieties then Gods Commandements make . Certainly God is no way oblig'd either by his promise or his Loue to giue us all things , that we may imagine would be convenient for us , as formerly I haue proved at large . It is sufficient that he denies us nothing necessary to Salvation . Deus non deficit in necessariis , nec redundat in superfluis : So D. Stapleton . But that the ending of all Controversies , or having a certain meanes of ending them , is necessary to Salvation , that you haue often said and suppos'd , but never proved , though it be the main pillar of your whole discourse . So little care you take how slight your Foundations are , so your building make a faire shew . And as little care , how you commit those faults your selfe , which you condemne in others . For you here charge them with great impiety , who imagine that God the lover of Soules hath left no infallible meanes to determine all differences arising about the interpretation of Scripture , or upon any other occasion : And yet afterwards being demanded by D. Potter , why the Questions between the Iesuits & Dominicans remain undetermined ? You returne him this crosse interrogatory , Who hath assured you that the point wherein these learned men differ , is a revealed Truth , or capable of definition , or is not rather by plain Scripture indeterminable , or by any Rule of faith ? So then when you say , it were great impiety to imagine that God hath not left infallible meanes to decide all differences ; I may answer , It seemes you doe not believe your selfe . For in this controversie which is of as high consequence as any can be , you seem to be doubtfull whether there be any meanes to determin it . On the other side , when you aske D. Potter , who assured him that there it any meanes to determine this Controversie ? I answer for him , that you have , in calling it a great impiety to imagine that there is not some infallible meanes to decide this and all other differences arising about the Interpretation of Scripture , or upon any other occasion . For what trick you can devise to shew that this difference , between the Dominicans and Iesuits , which includes a difference about the sense of many Texts of Scripture , & many other matters of moment , was not included under this and all other differences , I cannot imagine . Yet if you can finde out any , thus much at least we shall gain by it , that generall speeches are not alwaies to be understood generally , but sometimes with exceptions and limitations . 89 But if there be any infallible meanes to decide all differences , I beseech you name them . You say it is to consult and heare Gods Visible Church with submissive acknowledgment of her Infallibility . But suppose the difference be ( as here it is ) whether your Church be infalli●le , what shall decide that ? If you would say ( as you should dot ) Scripture and Reason , then you foresee that you should be forced to grant that these are fit meanes to decide this Controversie , and therefore may be as fit to decide others . Therefore to avoid this , you runne into a most ridiculous absurdity , and tell us that this difference also , whether the Church be infallible , as well as others , must be agreed by a submissiue acknowledgment of the Churches infallibility . As if you should haue said , My Brethren I perceiue this is a great contention amongst you , whether the Roman Church be infallible ? If you will follow my advice , I will shew you a ready meanes to end it ; you must first agree that the Roman Church is infallible , and then your contention whether the Roman Church be infallible , will quickly be at an end . Verily a most excellent advice , and most compendious way of ending all Controversies , even without troubling the Church to determine them ▪ For why may not you say in all other differences , as you haue done in this ? Agree that the Pope is supream head of the Church : That the substance of Bread and Wine in the Sacrament is turned into the body , & bloud of Christ : That the Communion is to be given to Lay-men but in one kind : That Pictures may be worshipped : That Saints are to bee invocated ; and so in the rest , and then your differences about the Popes Supremacy , Transubstantiation , and all the rest will speedily be ended . If you say , the advice is good in this , but not in other cases , I must request you not to expect alwaies , to be believed upon your word , but to shew us some reason , why any one thing , namely the Churches infallibility , is fit to prove it selfe ; and any other thing , by name the Popes Supremacy , or Transubstantiation is not as fit ? Or if for shame you will at length confesse , that the Churches infallibility is not fit to decide this difference , whether the Church be infallible , then you must confesse it is not fit to decide all : Vnlesse you will say , it may be fit to decide all , and yet not fit to decide this , or pretend that this is not comprehended under all . Besides if you grant that your Churches infallibilitie cannot possibly be well grounded upon , or decided by it selfe , then having professed before , that there is no possible meanes besides this , for us to agree hereupon , I hope you will giue mee leaue to conclude , that it is impossible upon good ground for us to agree that the Roman Church is infallible . For certainly light it selfe , is not more cleere then the evidence of this syllogisme ; If there be no other meanes to make men agree upon your Churches infallibility , but only this , and this be no meanes , then it is simply impossible for men upon good grounds to agree that your Church is infallible : But there is ( as you haue granted ) no other possible meanes to make men agree hereupon , but only a submissive acknowledgment of her Infallibility , And this is apparently no meanes ; Therefore it is simply impossible for men upon good grounds to agree that your Church is infallible . 90 Lastly to the place of S. Austine , wherein we are advis'd to follow the way of Catholique discipline , which from Christ himselfe by the Apostles hath come down even to us , and from us shall descend to all posterity : I answer , That the way which S. Austine spake of , & the way which you commend , being divers waies , & in many things cleane contrary , we cannot possibly follow them both ; and therefore for you to apply the same words to them is a vaine equivocation . Shew us any way , & doe not say , but proue it to haue come from Christ & his Apostles down to us ; and we are ready to follow it . Neither doe wee expect demonstration hereof , but such reasons as may make this more probable then the contrary . But if you bring in things into your now Catholique Discipline , which Chistians in S. Austins time held abominable , ( as the picturing of God , ) & which you must confesse to haue come into the Church seven hundred yeares after Christ : if you will bring in things , as you haue done the halfe Communion , with a non obstante , notwithstanding Christs Institution , and the practise of the Primitive Church were to the contrary : If you will doe such things as these , and yet would haue us believe , that your whole Religion came from Christ and his Apostles , this we conceive a request too unreasonable for modest men to make , or for wise men to grant . CHAP. IIII. To say , that the Creed containes all points necessarily to be believed , is neither pertinent to the Question in hand , nor in it selfe true . I SAY , neither pertinent , nor true . Not pertinent : Because our Question is not , what points are necessary to be explicitely believed ; but what points may be lawfully disbelieved , or rejected after sufficient Proposition that they are divine Truths . You say , the Creed containes all points necessary to be believed . Be it so . But doth it likewise containe all points not to be disbelieved ? Certainly it doth not . For how many truths are there in holy Scripture not contained in the Creed , which we are not obliged distinctly , and particularly to know and believe , but are bound under paine of damnation not to reject , as soone as we come to know that they are found in holy Scripture ? And we having already shewed , that whatsoever is proposed by Gods Church as a point of faith , is infallibly a truth revealed by God ; it followeth that whosoever denieth any such point , opposeth Gods sacred testimony whether that point be contained in the Creed , or no. In vaine then was your care imployed to prove that all points of faith necessary to be explicitely believed , are contained in the Creed . Neither was that the Catalogue which Charity Mistaken demanded . His demand was ( and it was most reasonable ) that you would once give us a list of all fundamentals , the deniall whereof destroyes Salvation ; whereas the deniall of other points not fundamentall , may stand with salvation , although both these kinds of points be equally proposed as revealed by God. For if they be not equally proposed , the difference will arise from diversity of the Proposall , and not of the Matter fundamentall , or not fundamentall . This Catalogue only , can shew how farre Protestants may disagree without breach of Vnity in faith ; and upon this many other matters depend , according to the ground of Protestants . But you will never adventure to publish such a Catalogue . I say more : You cannot assigne any one point so great , or fundamentall , that the deniall thereof will make a man an Heretique , if it be not sufficiently propounded , as a divine Truth : Nor can you assigne any one point so small , that it can without heresie be rejected , if once it be sufficiently represented as revealed by God. 2. Nay , this your instance in the Creed , is not only impertinent but directly against you . For all points in the Creed are not of their own nature fundamentall , as I shewed a before : And yet it is damnable to deny any one point contained in the Creed . So that it is cleere , that to make an errour damnable , it is not necessary that the matter be of it selfe fundamentall . 3 Moreover you cannot ground any certainty upon the Creed it selfe , unlesse first you presuppose that the authority of the Church is universally infallible , and consequently that it is damnable to oppose her declarations , whether they concerne matters great , or small , contayned , or not contained in the Creed . This is cleere . Because we must receiue the Creed it self upon the credit of the Church , without which we could not know that there was any such thing as that which we call the Apostles Creed : and yet the arguments whereby you endeavour to prove , that the Creed containes all fundamentall points , are grounded upon supposition , that the Creed was made either by the Apostles themselves , or by the b Church of their times from them : which thing we could not certainly know , if the succeeding and still continued Church , may erre in her Traditions : neither can we be assured , whether all fundamentall Articles which you say were out of the Scriptures , summed , and contracted into the Apostles Creed , were faithfully summed , and contracted , and not one pretermitted , altered , or mistaken , unlesse we undoubtedly know that the Apostles composed the Creed ; and that they intended to contract all fundamentall points of faith into it ; or at least that the Church of their times ( for it seemeth you doubt whether indeed it were composed by the Apostles themselves ) did understand the Apostles aright ; and that the Church of their times , did intend that the Creed should containe all fundamentall points . For if the Church may erre in points not fundamentall , may she not also erre in the particulers which I have specified ? Can you shew it to be a fundamentall point of faith , that the Apostles intended to comprize all points of faith necessary to Salvation in the Creed ? Your self say no more then that it is very c probable ; which is farre from reaching to a fundamentall point of faith . Your prohability is grounded upon the Iudgment of Antiquity , and even of the Roman Doctours , as you say in the same place . But if the Catholique Church may erre , what certainty can you expect from Antiquity , or Doctours ? Scripture is your totall Rule of faith . Cite therefore some Text of Scripture , to prove that the Apostles , or the Church of their times composed the Creed , and composed it with a purpose that it should containe all fundamentall points of faith . Which being impossible to be done , you must for the Creed it self rely upon the infallibility of the Church . 4. Moreover , the Creed consisteth not so much in the words , as in their sense and meaning . All such as pretend to the name of Christians , recite the Creed , and yet many have erred fundamentally , as well against the Articles of the Creed , as other points of faith . It is then very frivolous to say , the Creed containes all fundamentall points , without specifying , both in what sense the Articles of the Creed be true , and also in what true sense , they be fundamentall . For , both these taskes , you are to performe , who teach that all truth is not fundamentall : and you doe but delude the ignorant , when you say , that the Creed , taken in a Catholique e sense , comprehendeth all points fundamentall ; because with you , all Catholique sense is not fundamentall : for so it were necessary to salvation that all Christians should know the whole Scripture , wherein every least point hath a Catholique sense . Or if by Catholique sense , you understand that sense which is so universally to be knowne , and believed by all , that whosoever failes therein cannot be saved , you trifle and say no more then this : All points of the Creed in a sense necessary to salvation , are necessary to salvation . Or : All points fundamentall , are fundamentall . After this manner it were an easie thing to make many trve Prognostications , by saying it will certainly raine , when it raineth . You say the Creed f was opened and explained , in some parts in the Creeds of Nice , &c. but how shall we understand the other parts , not explained in those Creeds ? 5. For what Article in the Creed is more fundamentall , or may seem more cleere , then that , wherein we believe IESVS CHRIST to be the Mediatour , Redeemer , and Saviour of mankind , and the founder , and foundation of a Catholique Church expressed in the Creed ? And yet about this Article , how many different doctrines are there , not only of old Heretiques , as Arius , Nestorius , Eutiches , &c. but also of Protestants , partly against Catholiques , and partly against one another ? For the said maine Article of Christ's being the only Saviour of the world &c. according to different senses of disagreeing Sects , doth involve these , and many other such questions ; That Faith in IESVS CHRIST doth justifie alone ; That Sacraments have no efficency in Iustification ; That Baptisme doth not availe Infants for salvation , unlesse they have an Act of faith ; That there is no Sacerdotall Absolution from sinnes ; That good works proceeding from Gods grace are not meritorious ; That there can be no Satisfaction for the temporall punishment due to sinne after the guilt , or offence is pardoned ; No Purgatory ; No prayers for the dead ; No Sacrifice of the Masse ; No Invocation ; No Mediation , or intercession of Saints ; No inherent Iustice : No supreme Pastor , yea no Bishop by divine Ordinance ; No Reall presence ; no Transubstantiation , with diverse others . And why ? Because ( forsooth ) these Doctrines derogate from the Titles of Mediator , Redeemer , Advocate , Foundation , &c. Yea , and are against the truth of our Saviours humane nature , if we believe diverse Protestants , writing against Transubstantiation . Let then any judicious man consider , whether Doctour Potter , or others doe really satisfie , when they send men to the Creed for a perfect Catalogue , to distinguish points fundamentall , from those which they say are not fundamentall . If he will speak indeed to some purpose , let him say : This Article is understood in this sense ; and in this sense it is fundamentall . That other is to be understood in such a meaning ; yet according to that meaning , it is not so fundamentall , but that men may disagree , and denie it without damnation , But it were no policie for any Protestant to deale so plainly . 6. But to what end should we use many arguments ? Even your selfe are forced to limit your owne Doctrine , and come to say , that the Creed is a perfect Catalogue of fundamentall points , taken as it was further opened and explained in some parts ( by occasion of emergent Heresies ) in the other Catholique Creeds of Nice , Constantinople , g Ephesus , Chalcedon , and Athanasius . But this explication , or restriction overthroweth you assertion : For as the Apostles Creed was not to us a sufficient Catalogue , till it was explained by the first Councell , nor then till it was declared by another , &c. so now also , as new Heresies may arise , it will need particular explanation against such emergent errors ; and so it is not yet , nor ever will be of it self alone , a particular Catalogue , sufficient to distinguish betwixt fundamentall , and not fundamentall points . 7. I come to the second part : That the Creed doth not containe all maine and principall points of faith . And to the end we may not strive about things either granted by us both , or no thing concerning the point in question , I must premise these observations . 8. First : That it cannot be denied , but that the Creed is most full and complete , to that purpose for which the holy Apostles , inspir'd by God , meant that it should serve , and in that manner as they did intend it , which was , not to comprehend all particular points of faith , but such generall heads , as were most befitting , and requisite for preaching the faith of Christ to Iewes , and Gentiles , and might be briefly , and compendiously set down , and easily learned , and remembred . And therefore , in respect of Gentiles , the Creed doth mention God , as Creator of all things ; and and for both Iewes and Gentiles , the Trinity , the Messias , and Saviour , his birth , life , death , resurrection , and glory , from whom they were to hope remission of sinnes , and life everlasting , and by whose sacred Name they were to be distinguished from all other professions , by being called Christians . According to which purpose S. Thomas of Aquine h doth distinguish all the Articles of the Creed into these generall heads : That some belong to the Majesty of the God head ; others to the Mystery of our Saviour Christs Humane nature : Which two generall objects of faith , the holy Ghost doth expresse , and conjoyne , Ioan. 17. Haec est vita aeterna &c. This is life everlasting , that they know thee true GOD , and whom thou hast sent IESVS CHRIST . But it was not their meaning to give us as it were a course of Divinity , or a Catechisme , or a particular expression of all points of Faith , leaving those things to be performed , as occasion should require , by their own word or writing , for their time , and afterwards for their Successours in the Catholique Church . Our question then is not , whether the Creed be perfect , as farre as the end for which it was composed , did require ; For we beleive and are ready to give our lives for this : but only we denie , that the Apostles did intend to comprise therein all particular ●oints of beliefe , necessary to salvation , as even by D. Potters owne k confession , it doth not comprehend agenda , or things belonging to practise , as Sacraments , Commandements , the acts of Hope , and duties of Charity , which we are obliged not only to practise , but also to believe by divine infallible faith . Will he therefore inferre that the Creed is not perfect , because it containes not all those necessary , and fundamentall Objects of faith ? He will answer , No : because the Apostles intended only to expresse credenda , things to be believed , not practised . Let him therefore give us leave to say , that the Creed is perfect , because it wanteth none of those Objects of beliefe which were intended to be set downe , as we explicated before . 9. The second observation is , that to satisfie our question what points in particular be fundamentall , it will not be sufficient to alleage the Creed , unlesse it containes all such points either expressely and immediatly ; or else in such manner , that by evident , and necessary consequence they may be deduced from Articles both cleerely , and particularly contained therein . For if the deduction be doubtfull , we shall not be sure , that such Conclusions be fundamentall : or if the Articles themselves which are said to be fundamentall , be not distinctly , and particularly expressed , they will not serve us to know , and distinguish all points fundamentall , from those which they call , not fundamētall . We doe not deny , but that all points of faith , both fundamentall & not fundamentall , may be said to be contained in the Creed , in some sense ; as for example , implicitely , generally , or in such involved manner . For when we explicitely believe the Catholike Church , we doe implicitely believe whatsoever she proposeth as belonging to faith : Or else by way of reductiō , that is , when we are once instructed in the beliefe of particular points of faith , not expressed , nor by necessary consequence deducible from the Creed ; we may afterward , by some analogy , or proportion , and resemblance , reduce it to one , or moe of those Articles which are explicitely contained in the Symbole . Thus S. Thomas the Cherubim among Divines teacheth l that the miraculous existence of our Blessed Saviours body in the Eucharist , as likewise all his other miracles , are reduced to Gods Omnipotency , expressed in the Creed . And Doctor Potter saith : The Eucharist , m being a seale of that holy Vnion which we have with Christ our head , by his spirit and Faith , and with the Saints his members by Charity , is evidently included in the communion of Saints . But this reductive way , is farre from being sufficient to inferre out of the Articles of Gods Omnipotency , or of the Communion of Saints , that our Saviours body is in the Eucharist , and much lesse whether it be only in figure , or else in reality ; by Transubstantiation , or Consubstantiation , &c. and least of all , whether or no these points be fundamentall . And you hyperbolize , in saying , the Eucharist is evidently included in the Communion of Saints , as if there could not have been , or was not a Communion of Saints , before the Blessed Sacrament was instituted . Yet it is true , that after we know , and believe , there is such a Sacrament , wee may referre it to some of those heads expressed in the Creed , and yet so , as S. Thomas referres it to one Article , and D. Potter to another ; and in respect of different analogies or effects , it may be referred to severall Articles . The like I say of other points of faith , which may in some sort be reduced to the Creed , but nothing to D. Potters purpose : But contrarily it sheweth , that your affirming such and such points to be fundamentall or not fundamentall , is meerely arbitrary , to serve your turne , as necessity , and your occasions may require . Which was an old custome amongst Heretiques , as wee read in n S. Augustine ; Pelagius and Celessius , desiring fraudulently to avoide the the hatefull name of Heresies , affirmed that the question of Originall sinne may be disputed without danger of faith . But this holy Father affirmes that it belongs to the foundation of Faith. We may ( saith he ) endure a disputant who erres in other questions not yet diligently examined , not yet diligently established by the whole authority of the Church ; their errour may be borne with : but it must not passe so farre as to attempt to shake the foundation of the church . We see S. Augustine places the being of a point fundamentall or not fundamentall , in that it hath beene examined , and established by the Church , although the point of which he speaketh , namely Originall Sinne , be not contained in the Creed . 10. Out of that which hath beene said , I inferre , that Dostor Potters paines in alleaging Catholique Doctors , the ancient Fathers , and the Councell of Trent , to prove that the Creed containes all points of faith , was needlesse ; since we grant it in manner aforesaid . But Doctor Potter , cannot in his conscience believe , that Catholique Divines , or the Councell of Trent and the holy Fathers did intend , that all points in particular which we are obliged to believe , are contained explicitely in the Creed ; he knowing well enough , that all Catholiques hold themselves obliged , to believe all those points which the said Councell defines to be believed under an Anathema , and that all Christians believe the commandements , Sacraments &c. which are not expressed in the Creed . 11. Neither must this seeme strange . For who is ignorant , that Summaries , Epitomes , and the like briefe Abstracts , are not intended to specifie all particulars of that Science , or Subject to which they belong . For as the Creed is said to containe all points of Faith ; so the Decalogue comprehends all Articles , ( as I may terme them ) which concerne Charity , and good life : and yet this cannot be so understood , as if we were disobliged frō performance of any duty , or the eschewing . of any vice , unlesse it be expressed in the ten Commandements . For , ( to omit the precepts of receaving Sacraments , which belong to practise , or manners , and yet are not contained in the Decalogue ) there are many sinnes , even against the law of nature , and light of reason , which are not contained in the tenne Commandements , except only by similitude , analogy , reduction , or some such way . For example , we find not expressed in the Decalogue , either divers sinnes , as Gluttony , Drunkennesse , Pride , Sloth , Covetousnesse in desiring either things superfluous , or with too much greedinesse ; or diuers of our chiefe obligations , as Obedience to Princes , and all Superiours , not only Ecclesiasticall but also Civill , whose lawes Luther , Melancthon , Calvin ; and some other Protestants doe dangerously affirme not to oblige ●n conscience , and yet these men thinke they know the ten Commandements : as likewise divers Protestants defend Vsury , to be lawfull ; and the many Treatises of Civilians , Canonists , and Casuists , are witnesses , that divers sinnes against the light of reason , and Law of nature , are not distinctly expressed in the ten Commandements ; although when by other diligences they are found to be unlawfull , they may be reduced to some of the Commandements , and yet not so evidently , and particularly , but that divers doe it in divers manners . 12. My third Observation is : That our present question being , whether or no the Creed containe so fully all fundamentall points of faith , that whosoever doe not agree in all , and every one of those fundamentall Articles , cannot have the same substance of faith , nor hope of Salvation ; if I can produce one , or more points , not contained in the Creed , in vvhich if two doe not agree , both of them cannot expect to be saved , I shall have performed as much as I intend ; and D. Potter must seeke our some other Catalogue for points fundamentall , then the Creed . Neither is it materiall to the said purpose , whether such fundamentall points rest only in knowledge , and speculation , or beliefe , or else be farther referred to work and practise . For the habit , or vertue of Faith , which inclineth , and enableth us to believe both speculative , and practicall verities , is of one and the selfe same nature , and essence . For example , by the same Faith , whereby I speculatively believe there is a God , I likewise believe , that he is to be adored , served , and loved ; which belong to practise . The reason is , because the Formall Object , or motive , for which I yeild assent to those different sorts of materiall objects , is the sai●● in both , to wit , the revelation , or word of God. Where , by the way I note , that if the Vnity , or Distinction , and nature of faith , were to be taken from the diversity of things revealed , by one faith I should believe speculative verities , and by another such as tend to practise , which I doubt whether D. Potter himselfe will admit . 13 Hence it followeth , that whosoever denieth any one main practicall revealed truth , is no lesse an Heretique , then if he should deny a Point resting in belief alone . So that when D. Potter , ( to avoid our argument , that all fundamentall points are not contained in the Creed , because in it there is no mention of the Sacraments , which yet are points of so main importance , that Protestants make the due administration of them , to be necessary and essentiall to constitute a Church ) answereth , that the Sacraments are to be p reckoned , rather among the Agenda of the Church , then the Credenda ; they are rather divine rites and ceremonies , then Doctrines , he either grants what we affirme , or in effect saies , Of two kinds of revealed truths , which are necessary to be believed , the Creed containes one sort only , ergo , it containes all kind of revealed truths necessary to be believed . Our question is not , de nomine but re ; not what be called points of faith , or of practise , but what points indeed be necessarily to be believed , whether they be termed Agenda , or Credenda : especially the chiefest part of Christian perfection consisting more in Action , then in barren Speculation ; in good works , then bare belief ; in doing , then knowing . And there are no lesse contentions concerning practicall ; then speculative truths : as Sacraments , obtaining remission of sinne , Invocation of Saints , Prayers for dead , Adoration of Christ in the Sacrament , and many other : all which doe so much the more import , as on them , beside righ● belief , doth also depend our practise , and the ordering of our life . Though D. Potter could therefore give us ( as he will never be able to doe ) a minute , and exact Catalogue of all truths to be believed ; that would not make me able enough to know , whether or no I have faith sufficient for salvation ; till he also did bring in a particular List , of all believed truths , which tend to practise , declaring which of them be fundamentall , which not ; that so every man might know , whether he be not in some Damnable Errour , for some Article of faith , which farther might give influence into Damnable works . 14 These Observations being premised , I come to prove , that the Creed doth not contain all points of Faith necessary to be known and believed . And , to omit that in generall it doth no● tell us , what points be fundamentall , or not fundamentall , which in the way of Protestants , is most necessary to be known ; in particular , there is no mention of the greatest evills , from which mans calamity proceeded , I mean , the sinne of the Angels , of Adam , and of Originall sinne in us : nor of the greatest good from which we expect all good , to wit , the necessity of Grace for all works tending to piety . Nay , there is no mention of Angels , good , or bad . The meaning of that most generall head ( Oporter accedentem &c. It behoves q him that comes to God , to believe that he is , and is a remunerator , ) is questioned , by the deniall of Merit , which makes God a Giver , but not a Rewarder . It is not expressed whether the Article of Remission of sinnes be understood by faith alone , or else may admit the efficiency of Sacraments . There is no mention of Ecclesiasticall , Apostolicall , Divine Traditions , one way or other ; or of holy Scriptures in generall , and much lesse of every book in particular ; nor of the Name , Nature , Number , Effects , Matter , Forme , Minister , Intention , Necessity of Sacraments , and yet the due Administration of Sacraments , is with Protestants an essentiall Note of the Church . There is nothing for Baptisme of Children , nor against Rebaptization . There is no mention in favour , or against the Sacrifice of the Masse , of Power in the Church to institute Rites , Holy daies , &c. and to inflict Excommunication , or other Censures : of Priesthood , Bishops , and the whole Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy , which are very fundamentall points ; of S. Peters Primacy , which to Calvin seemeth a fundamentall errour ; nor of the possibility , or impossibility to keep Gods commandements ; of the procession of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne ; of Purgatory , or Prayer for the dead , in any sense : And yet D. Potter doth not deny , but that Aerius was esteemed an Heretique , for denying r all sort of Commemoration for the dead . Nothing of the Churches Visibility or Invisibility , Fallibility or Infallibility ; nor of other points controverted betwixt Protestants themseves , and between Protestants and Catholiques , which to D. Potter seem so hainous corruptions , that they cannot without damnation joyne with us in profession thereof . There is no mention of the Cessation of the Old Law , which yet is a very main point of faith . And many other might be also added . 15. But what need we labour to specify particulars ? There are as many important points of faith not expressed in the Creed , as since the worlds begining , now , and for all future times , there have been , are and may be innumerable , grosse , damnable Heresies , whose contrary truths are not contained in the Creed . For , every fundamentall Error must have a contrary fundamentall truth ; because of two contradictory propositions in the same degree , the one is false , the other must be true . As for example , if it be a damnable error to deny the B● . Trinity , or the Godhead of our Saviour , the belief of them must be a truth necessary to Salvation ; or rather , if we will speak properly , the Error is damnable , because the opposite Truth is necessary , as death is frightfull , because life is sweet ; and according to Philosophy , the Privation is measured by the Forme to which it is repugnant . If therefore the Creed contain in particular all fundamentall points of faith , it must explicitely , or by cleer consequence , comprehend all truths opposite to innumerable Heresies of all ages past , present , and to come , which no man in his wits will affirme it to doe . 16 And here I cannot omit to signify how you s applaud the saying of D. Vsher. That in those propositions which without all controversy are universally received in the whole Christian world , so much truth is contained , as being joyned with holy Obedience , may be sufficient to bring a man to everlasting salvation , neither have we cause to doubt , but that as many as walk according to this Rule ( neither overthrowing that which they have builded , by superinducing any damnable heresies thereupon , nor otherwise vitiating their holy faith , with a lewd and wicked conversation ) peace shall be upon them , and upon the Israel of God. Now D Potter knowes , that the Mystery of the B. Trinity is not universally received in the whole Christian world , as appeares in very many Heretiques , in Polony , Hungary , and Transilvania , and therefore according to this Rule of D. Vsher , approved by D. Potter , the deniall of the B. Trinity , shall not exclude Salvation . 17 Let me note by the way , that you might easily have espied a foul contradiction in the said words of D. Vsher , by you recited , and so much applauded . For he supposeth , that a man agrees with other Churches in belief , which joyned with holy Obedience may bring him to everlasting salvation , and yet , that he may superinduce damnable heresies . For how can he superinduce damnable heresies , who is supposed to believe all Truths necessary to salvation ? Can there be any damnable heresy , unlesse it contradict some necessary truth , which cannot happen in one who is supposed to believe all necessary Truths ? Besides if one believing all fundamentall Articles in the Creed , may superinduce damnable heresies ; it followeth that the fundamentall truths contrary to those damnable heresies , are not contained in the Creed . 18 According to this Modell of D. Potters foundation , consisting in the agreement of scarceone point of faith ; what a strange Church would he make of men concurring in some one of few Articles of belief , who yet for the rest should be holding conceits plainly contradictory : so patching up a Religion of men , who agree only in the Article , that Christ is our Saviour , but for the rest , are like to the parts of a Chimaera ; having the head of a man , the neck of a horse , the shoulders of an Oxe , the foot of a Lion &c. I wrong them not herein . For in good Philosophy there is greater repugnancy between assent and dissent , affirmation and negation , est est , non non , ( especially when all these contradictories pretend to rely upon one and the selfe same Motive , the infallible Truth of Almighty God ) then between the integrall parts , as head , neck , &c. of a man , horse , lion , &c. And thus Protestants are farre more bold to disagree even in matters of faith , then Catholique Divines in questions meerely Philosophicall , or not determined by the Church . And wh●e thus they stand only upon fundamentall Articles , they doe by their own confession destroy the Church , which is the house of God. For the foundation alone of a house , is not a house , nor can they in such an imaginary Church any more expect Salvation , then the foundation alone of a house is fit to afford a man habitation . 19 Moreover , it is most evident that Protestants by this Chaos rather then Church , doe giue unavoidable occasion of desperation to poore soules . Let some one who is desirous to save his soule repaire to D. Potter , who maintaines these grounds , to know upon whom he may rely , in a matter of so great consequence ; I suppose the Doctors answer will be : Vpon the truely Catholique Church . She cannot erre damnably . What understand you by the Catholique Church ? Cannot generall Councells , which are the Church representatiue , erre ? Yes , they may weakly , or t wilfully misaply , or misunderstand , or neglect Scripture , and so erre damnably . To whom then shall I goe for my particular instruction ? I cannot confer with the united body of the whole Church about my particular difficulties , as your selfe affirmes , that the Catholique Church cannot be told u of private iniuries . Must I then consult with every particular person of the Catholique Church ? So it seemes , by what you write in these words : The whole w militant Church ( that is all the members of it ) cannot possibly erre , either in the whole faith , or any necessary Article of it . You say , M. Doctour , I cannot for my instruction acquaint the universall Church with my particular scruples : You say , the Prelates of Gods Church meeting in a lawfull generall Councel may erre damnably : It remaines then , that for my necessary instruction , I must repaire to every particular member of the universall Church spread over the face of the earth : and yet you teach that the promises x which our Lord hath made unto his Church for his assistance , are intended not to any particular persons or Churches , but only to the Church Catholique , with which ( as I said ) it is impossible for me to confer . Alas ! O most uncomfortable Ghostly Father , you driue me to desperation ! How shall I confer with every Christian soule , man and woman , by sea and by land , close prisoner , or at liberty ? &c. Yet upon supposall of this miraculous Pilgrimage for Faith , before I haue the faith of Miracles , how shall I proceed at our meeting ? Or how shall I know the man on whom I may securely rely ? Procure ( will you say ) to knew whether he belieue all fundamentall points of faith . For if he doe , his faith , for point of beliefe , is sufficient for salvation , though he erre in a hundred things of lesse moment . But how shall I know whether hee hold all fundamentall points or no ? For till you tell me this , I cannot know whether or no his beliefe be sound in all fundamentall points . Can you say the Creed ? Yes . And so can many damnable Heretiques . But why doe you aske me this question ? Because the Creed containes all fundamentall points of faith . Are you sure of that ? not sure : I hold it very probable . y Shall I hazard my soule on probabilities , or even wagers ? This yeelds a new cause of despaire . But what ? doth the Creed contain all points necessary to be believed , whether they rest in the understanding , or else doe further extend to practise ? No. It was composed to deliver Credenda , not Agenda to us ; Faith , not Practise . How then shall I know what points of beliefe , which direct my practise , be necessary to salvation ? S●ll you chalk our new paths for Desperation . Well , are all Articles of the Creed , for their nature and matter , fundamentall ? I cannot say so . How then shall I know which in particular be , and which be not fundamentall ? Read my Answer to a late Popish Pamphlet intituled Charity Mistaken &c. there you shall finde , that fundamentall doctrines are such Catholique Verities , as principally and essentially pertain z to the Faith , such as properly constitute a Church , and are necessary ( in ordinary course ) to be distinctly believed by every Christian that will be saved . They are those grand , and capitall doctrines which make up our Faith in Christ ; that is , that common faith which is alike precious in all , being one and the same in the highest Apostle , and the meanest believer , which the Apostle else-where cals the first principles of the oracles of God , & the forme of sound words . But how shall I apply these generall definitions , or descriptions , or ( to say the truth ) these only varied words , and phrases ( for I understand the word , fundamentall , as well as the words , principall , essentiall grand , and capitall doctrines , &c. ) to the particular Articles of the Creed , in such sort , as that I may be able precisely , exactly , particularly , to distinguish fundamentall Articles from points of lesse moment ? You labour to tell us what fundamentall points be , but not which they be : and yet unlesse you doe this , your Doctrine serues only , either to make men despaire , or else to haue recourse to those whom you call Papists , and which giue one certain Rule , that all points defined by Christs visible Church belong to the foundation of Faith , in such sense , as that to deny any one cannot stand with salvation . And seeing your selfe acknowledges that these men doe not erre in points fundamentall , I cannot but hold it most safe for me to joyn with them , for the securing of my soule , and the avoiding of desperation , into which this your doctrine must cast all them who understand , and belieue it . For the whole discourse , and inferences which here I haue made , are either your own direct Assertions , or evident consequences cleerly deduced from them . 20 But now let us answer some few Objections of D. Potters , against that which wee haue said before , to avoid our argument . That the Scripture is not so much as mentioned in the Creed , he saith : The Creed is an abstract of such a necessary Doctrines as are delivered in Scripture , or collected out of it ; and therefore needs not expresse the authority of that which it supposes . 21 This answer makes for us . For by giving a reason why it was needlesse that Scripture should be expressed in the Creed , you grant as much as we desire , namely that the Apostles judged it needlesse to expresse all necessary points of faith in their Creed . Neither doth the Creed suppose , or depend on Scripture , in such sort as that we can by any probable consequence , infer from the Articles of the Creed , that there is any Canonicall Scripture at all ; and much lesse that such Books in particular be Canonicall . Yea the Creed might haue been the same although holy Scripture had never been written ; and , which is more , the Creed even in priority of time , was before all the Scripture of the new Testament , except the Gospell of S. Mathew . And so according to this reason of his , the Scripture should not mention Articles contained in the Creed . And I note in a word , how little connexion D. Potters arguments haue , while he tells us , that the Creed b is an Abstra●● of such necessary doctrines as are delivered in Scripture , or collected out of it , & therefore needs not expresse the authority of that which it supposes ; it doth not follow : The Articles of the Creed are delivered in Scripture : therefore the Creed supposeth Scripture . For two distinct writings may well deliver the same truths , and yet one of them not suppose the other , unlesse D. Potter be of opinion that two Doctors cannot , at one time , speak the same truth . 22 And notwithstanding , that D. Potter hath now told us , it was needlesse that the Creed should expresse Scripture , whose Authority it supposes , he comes at length to say , that the Nicene Fathers in their Creed confessing that the holy Ghost spake by the Prophets , doth thereby sufficiently avow the divine Authority of all Canonicall Scripture . But I would ask him , whether the Nicene Creed be not also an Abstract of Doctrines delivered in Scripture , as he said of the Apostles Creed , and thence did infer , that it was needlesse to expresse Scripture , whose authority it supposes ? Besides , we doe not only belieue in generall , that Canonicall Scripture is of divine authority but we are also bound under pain of damnation to belieue , that such and such particular Books● not mentioned in the Nicene Creed , are Canonicall . And lastly D. Potter in this Answer grants as much as we desire , which is , that all points of faith are not contained in the Apostles Creed , even as it is explained by other Creeds . For these words ( who spake by the Prophets ) are no waies contained in the Apostles Creed , and therefore contain an Addition , not an Explanation thereof . 23 But , how can it be necessary ( saith D. Potter ) for any Christian to haue more in his Creed then the c Apostles had , and the Church of their times ? I answer ; You trifle , not distinguish between the Apostles beliefe , and that abridgment of some Articles of faith , which we call the Apostles Creed ; and withall you beg the question , by supposing that the Apostles believed no more , then is contained in their Creed , which every unlearned person knowes and belieues : and I hope you will not deny but the Apostles were endued with greater knowledge then ordinarie persons . 24 Your pretended proof out of the Acts , that the Apostles revealed to the Church the whole counsell of God , keeping d back nothing , with your glosse ( needfull for our salvation ) is no proofe , unlesse you still beg the question , and doe suppose , that whatsoever the Apostles revealed to the Church , is contained in the Creed . And I wonder you doe not reflect that those words were by S , Paul particularly directed to Pastors , and Governours of the Church , as is cleere by the other words ; He called the Ancients of the Church . And afterward : Take heed to your selues , and to the whole flock wherein the holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops , to rule the Church . And your selfe say , that more knowledge is e necessary in Bishops , and Priests , to whom is committed the government of the Church , and the care of soules , then in vulgar Laicks . Doe you think that the Apostles taught Christians nothing but their Creed ? Said they nothing of the Sacraments , Commandements , Duties of Hope , Charity , &c. 25 Vpon the same affected ambiguity is grounded your other objection : To say the whole faith of those times f is not contained in the Apostles Creed , is all one , as if a man should say , this is not the Apostles Creed ▪ but a part of it : For the faith of the Apostles is not all one with that which we commonly call their Creed . Did not , I pray you , S. Mathew , and S. Iohn belieue their writings to be Canonicall Scripture ? and yet their writings are not mentioned in the Creed . It is therefore more then cleere , that the Faith of the Apostles is of larger extent , then the Apostles Creed . 26 To your demand , why amongst many things of equall necessity to be believed , the Apostles should g so di●tinctly set down some , and be altogether silent of others ? I answer : That you must answer your own demand . For in the Creed there be divers points in their nature , not fundamentall or necessary to be explicitely and distinctly believed , 〈◊〉 aboue wee shew●d ; why are these points which are not fundamentall expressed , rather then other 〈◊〉 the same quality ? Why our Saviours descent to Hell , and Buriall expressed , and not his Circumcision , his Manifestation to the three Kings , working of Miracles , &c. Why did they not expresse Scriptures , Sacraments , and all fundamentall points of Faith tending to practise , as well as those which rest in beliefe ? Their intention was , particularly to deliver such Articles as were fittest for those times , concerning the Deity , Trinity , and Messias ( as heretofore I haue declared ) leaving many things to be taught by the Catholique Church , which in the Creed we all professe to belieue . Neither doth it follow , as you infer , That as well , nay better , they might have given no Article , but that ( of the Church ) & sent us to the Church for all the rest . For in setting down others besides that , and not all , they make us believe we haue all , when h we haue not all . For by this kind of arguing , what may not be deduced ? One might , quite contrary to your inference , say : If the Apostles Creed contain all points necessary to salvation , what need we any Church to teach us ? and consequently what need of the Article concerning the Church ? What need we the Creeds of Nice , Constantinople , &c. Superfluous are your Catechismes , wherein besides the Articles of the Creed , you adde divers other particulars . These would be poore consequences , and so is yours . But shall I tell you newes ? For so you are pleased to esteem it . We grant your inference , thus far : That our Saviour Christ referred us to his Church , by her to be taught , and by her alone . For , she was before the Creed , and Scriptures ; And she to discharge this imposed office of instructing us , hath delivered us the Creed , but not it alone , as if nothing else were to be believed . We haue besides it , holy Scripture , we haue unwritten , Divine , Apostolicall , Ecclesiasticall Traditions . It were a childish argument : The Creed containes not all things which are necessary to be believed : Ergo , it is not profitable . Or ; The Church alone is sufficient to teach us by some convenient meanes : Ergo , she must teach us without all meanes , without Creeds , without Councels , without Scripture &c. If the Apostles had expressed no Article , but that of the Catholique Church , she must have taught us the other Articles in particular , by Creeds , or other meanes , as in fact we have even the Apostles Creed from the Tradition of the Church . If you will believe you have all in the Creed , when you have not all , it is not the Apostles , or the Church , that makes you so believe , but it is your owne errour , whereby you will needs believe , that the Creed must contain all . For neither the Apostles , nor the Church , nor the Creed it selfe tell you any such matter ; and what necessity is there , that one meanes of instruction , must involve whatsoever is contained in all the rest ? Wee are not to recite the Creed with anticipated perswasion , that it must contain what we imagin it ought , for better maintaining some opinions of our own ; but we ought to say , and belieue that it containes what we finde in it ; of which one Article is to belieue the Catholique Church , surely to be taught by her , which presupposeth that we need other instruction beside the Creed : and in particular we may learn of her , what points be contained in the Creed , what otherwise ; and so we shall not be deceaved , by believing we haue all in the Creed , when we have not all : and you may in the same manner say : As well , nay better , the Apostles might haue given us no Articles at all , as haue left out Articles tending to practise . For in setting down one sort of Articles , and not the others , they make us belieue we haue all , when we haue not all . 27 To our argument , that Baptisme is not contained in the Creed , D. Potter , besides his answer , that Sacraments belong rather to practise then faith , ( which I haue already confuted , and which indeed maketh against himselfe , and serveth only to shew that the Apostles intended not to comprize all points in the Creed which we are bound to belieue ) adds , that the Creed of i Nice expressed Baptisme by name , confesse one Baptisme for the remission of sinnes . Which answer is directly against himselfe , and manifestly proues that Baptisme is an Article of faith , and yet is not contained in the Apostles Creed , neither explicitely , nor by any necessary consequence from other Articles expressed therein . If to make it an Article of faith be sufficient that it is contained in the Nicene Councell ; he will finde that Protestants maintain many errours against faith , as being repugnant to definitions of Generall Councels : as in particular , that the very Councell of Nice ( which saith M. Whitgift , k is of all wise and learned men reverenced , esteemed and imbraced , next unto the Scriptures themselues ) decreed that , to those who were chosen to the Ministry unmarried , it was not lawfull to take any wife afterward , is affirmed by Protestants . And your grand Reformer Luther ( lib. de Conciliis part prima ) saith , that he understand not the Holy Ghost in that Councell . For in one Canon it saith that those who haue gelded themselues are not fit to be made Priests , in another it forbids them to haue wiues . Hath ( saith he ) the Holy Ghost nothing to doe in Councells , but to binde , and load his Ministers with impossible , dangerous , and unnecessary lawes ? I forbeare to shew that this very Article I confesse one Baptisme for the Remission of sinnes , will be understood by Protestants in a far different sense from Catholiques , yea Protestants among themselues doe not agree , how Baptisme forgiues sinnes , nor what grace it conferres . Only concerning the Vnity of Baptisme against rebaptization of such as were once baptized ( which I noted as a point not contained in the Apostles Creed ) I cannot omit an excellent place of S. Augustine , where speaking of the Donatists he hath these words . They are so bold as l to rebaptize Catholiques , wherein they shew themselues to be the greater Heretiques , since it hath pleased the universall Catholique Church not to make Baptisme void even in the very Heretiques themselues . In which few words this holy Father delivereth against the Donatists these points which doe also make against Protestants : That to make an Heresie , or an Heretique , known for such , it is sufficient , to oppose the definition of Gods Church : That a proposition may be Hereticall though it be not repugnant to any Texts of Scripture . For S. Augustine teacheth that the doctrine of rebaptization , is hereticall ▪ and yet acknowledgeth it cannot be convinced for such out of Scripture . And that neither the Heresie of rebaptization of those who were baptized by Heretiques , nor the contrary Catholique truth being expressed in the Apostles Creed , it followeth that it doth not contain all points of faith necessary to salvation . And so we must conclude that to belieue the Creed is not sufficient for Vnitie of faith , and Spirit in the same Church , unlesse there be also a totall agreement both in beliefe of other points of faith , and in externall profession , and Communion also ( whereof we are to speak in the next Chapter ) according to the saying of S. Augustine : You are m with us in Baptisme , and in the Creed , but in the Spirit of Vnity , and bond of peace , and lastly in the Catholique Church you are not with us . THE ANSVVER TO THE FOVRTH CHAPTER . Wherein is shewed , that the Creed containes all necessary points of meere belief . 1 AD . § . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Concerning the Creeds containing the Fundamentalls of Christianity , this is D. Potters assertion , delivered in the 207. p. of his book . The Creed of the Apostles ( as it is explained in the latter Creeds of the Catholique Church ) is esteemed a sufficient summary or Catalogue of Fundamentalls , by the best learned Romanists and by Antiquity . 2 By Fundamentalls he understands not the Fundamentall rules of good life and action , ( though every one of these is to be believed to come from God , & therefore vertually includes an Article of Faith ; ) but the Fundamentall doctrines of Faith ; such , as though they have influence upon our lives , as every essentiall doctrine of Christianity hath , yet we are commanded to believe them , and not to doe them . The assent of our understandings is required to them , but no obedience from our wills . 3 But these speculative Doctrines again he distinguishes out of Aquinas , Occham , and Canus and others , into two kinds : of the first are those which are the obiects of Faith , in , and for themselves , which by their own nature and Gods prime intention , are essentiall parts of that Gospell : such as the teachers in the Church , cannot without Mortall sinne omit to teach the learners : such as are intrinsecall to the Covenant between God and man ; and not only plainly revealed by God , and so certain truths , but also commanded to be preacht to all men , and to be believed distinctly by all , and so necessary truths . Of the second sort are Accidentall , Circumstantiall , Occasionall objects of faith ; milliōs whereof there are in holy Scripture ; such as are to be believed ▪ not for themselves , but because they are joyned with others , that are necessary to be believed , and delivered by the same Authority which delivered these . Such as we are not bound to know to bee divine Revelations , ( for without any fault we may be ignorant hereof , nay believe the contrary ; ) such as we are not bound to examine , whether or no they be divine Revelations : such as Pastors are not bound to teach their Flock , nor their Flock bound to know and remember : no nor the Pastors themselves to know them or believe them , or not to disbelieve them absolutely and alwaies ; but then only when they doe see , and know them to be delivered in Scripture , as divine Revelations . 4 I say when they doe so , and not only when they may doe . For to lay an obligation upon us of believing , or not disbelieving any Verity , sufficient Revelation on Gods part , is not sufficient : For then seeing all the expresse Verities of Scripture are either to all men , or at least to all learned men sufficiently revealed by God , it should be a damnable sinne , in any learned man actually to disbelieve any one particular Historicall verity contained in Scripture , or to believe the contradiction of it , though he knew it not to be there contained . For though he did not , yet he might have known it ; it being plainly revealed by God , and this revelation being extant in such a Book , wherein he might have found it recorded , if with diligence he had perused it . To make therefore any points necessary to be believed , it is requisite , that either we actually know them to be divine Revelations : and these though they be not Articles of faith , nor necessary to be believed , in and for themselves , yet indirectly , and by accident , and by consequence , they are so : The necessity of believing them , being inforced upon us , by a necessity of believing this Essentiall , and Fundamentall article of Faith , That all Divine Revelations are true , which to disbelieve , or not to believe , is for any Christian not only impious , but impossible . Or else it is requisite that they be , First actually revealed by God. Secondly , commanded under pain of damnation , to be particularly known ( I mean known to be divine Revelations , ) and distinctly to be believed . And of this latter sort of speculative divine Verities , D. Potter affirmed , that the Apostles Creed was a sufficient summary : yet he affirmed it , not as his own opinion , but as the doctrine of the ancient Fathers , and your own Doctors . And besides , he affirmed it not as absolutely certain , but very probable . 5 In brief , all that he saies is this : It is very probable , that according to the judgement of the Roman Doctors , and the Ancient Fathers , the Apostles Creed is to be esteemed a sufficient summary of all those doctrines which being meerely Credenda , and not Agenda , all men are ordinarily , under pain of Damnation , bound particularly to believe . 6 Now this assertion ( you say ) is neither pertinent to the question in hand , nor in it selfe true . Your Reasons to prove it impertinent , put into forme and divested of impertinencies are these . 1. Because the question was not , what points were necessary to be explicitly believed , but what points were necessary not to be disbelieved after sufficient proposall . And therefore to give a Catalogue of points , necessary to be explicitly believed is impertinent . 7 Secondly , because errours may be damnable , though the contrary truths be not of themselves fundamentall ; as that Pontius Pilate was our Saviours Iudge , is not in it selfe a Fundamentall truth , ●et to believe the contrary were a damnable errour . And therefore to give a Catalogue of Truths in themselves fundamentall , is no pertinent satisfaction to this demand , what errors are damnable ? 8 Thirdly , because if the Church be not Vniversally infallible , wee cannot ground any certainty upon the Creed , which we must receive upon the Credit of the Church : and if the Church be Vniversally infallible , it is damnable to oppose her declaration in any thing , though not contained in the Creed . 9 Fourthly , Because not to believe the Articles of the Creed in the true sense is damnable , therefore it is frivolous to say the Creed containes all Fundamentalls , without specifying in what sense the Articles of it are Fundamentall . 10 Fiftly , because the Apostles Creed ( as D. Potter himselfe confesses ) was not a sufficient Catalogue , till it was explained by the first Councell ; nor then untill it was declared in the second &c. by occasion of emergent Heresies : Therefore now also as new Heresies may arise , it will need particular explanation , and so is not yet , nor ever will be a compleat Catalogue of Fundamentalls . 11 Now to the first of these objections I say : Frist , that your distinction between points necessary to be believed , and necessary not to be disbelieved , is more subtill then sound , a distinction without a difference : There being no point necessary to be believed , which is not necessary not to be disbelieved : Nor no point to any man , at any time , in any circumstances necessary not to be disbelieved , but it is to the same man , at the same time , in the same circumstances , necessary to be believed . Yet that which ( I believe ) you would have said , I acknowledge true , that many points which are not necessary to be believed absolutely , are yet necessary to be believed upon a supposition , that they are known to be revealed by God : that is , become then necessary to be believed , when they are known to be Divine Revelations . But then I must needs say , you doe very strangely , in saying , that the question was , what points might lawfully be disbelieved , after sufficient Proposition that they are divine Revelations . You affirme , that none may , and so does D. Potter , and with him all Protestants , and all Christians . And how then is this the question ? Who ever said or thought , that of Divine Revelations , known to be so , some might safely and lawfully be rejected , and disbelieved , under pretence that they are not Fundamentall ? Which of us ever taught , that it was not damnable , either to deny , or so much as doubt of the Truth of any thing , whereof we either know , or believe that God hath revealed it ? What Protestant ever taught that it was not damnable , either to give God the lye , or to call his Veracity into question ? Yet you say , The demand of Charity mistaken was , & it was most reasonable , that a list of Fundamētalls , should be given , the denyall whereof destroies Salvation , whereas the deniall of other points may stand with Salvation , although both kinds be equally proposed , as revealed by God. 12 Let the Reader peruse Charity Mistaken , & he shall find that this qualification , although both kinds of points be equally proposed as revealed by God , is your addition , and no part of the demand . And if it had , it had been most unreasonable , seeing he and you know well enough , that ( though we doe not presently without examination , fall down and worship all your Churches proposals , as divine Revelations ) yet , we make no such distinction of known divine Revelations , as if some only of them were necessary to be believed , and the rest might safely be rejected . So that to demand a particular minute Catalogue of all points that may not be disbelieved after sufficient Proposition , is indeed to demaund a Catalogue of all points that are or may be , in as much as none may be disbelieved , after sufficient Proposition , that it is a divine Revelation . At least it is to desire us , First , to transcribe into this catalogue , every Text of the whole Bible . Secondly , to set down distinctly , those innumerous millions of negative and positive consequences , which may be evidently deduced from it : For these we say , God hath revealed . And indeed you are not ashamed in plain tearmes to require this of us . For having first told us , that the demand was , what points were necessary not to be disbelieved , after sufficient proposition that they are Divine Truths : you come to say , Certainly the Creed containes not all these . And this you prove by asking , how many Truths are thero in holy Scripture , not contained in the Creed , which we are not bound to know and believe , but are bound under pain of damnation not to reject , as soon as we come to know that they are found in holy Scripture ? So that in requiring a particular Catalogue of all points , not to be disbelieved , after sufficient Proposall , you require us to set you down all points contained in Scripture , or evidently deducible from it . And yet this you are pleas'd to call a reasonable , nay , a most reasonable Demand : whereas having ingaged your selfe to give a Catalogue of your Fundamentalls , you conceive your ingagement very well satisfyed by saying , all is Fundamentall which the Church proposes , without going about , to give us an endlesse Inventory of her Proposalls . And therefore from us , in stead of a perfect particular of Divine Revelations of all sorts , ( of which with a lesse hyperbole then S. Iohn useth , we might say , If they were to be written , the world would not hold the books that must be written ; ) me thinkes you should accept of this generall , All Divine Revelations are true , and to be believed . 13 The very truth is , the main Question in this businesse is not , what divine Revelations are necessary to be believed , or not rejected when they are sufficiently proposed : for all without exception , all without question are so ; But what Revelations are simply and absolutely necessary to be proposed to the beliefe of Christians , so that that Society , which does propose , and indeed believe them , hath for matter of Faith , the essence of a true Church ; that which does not , has not . Now to this question , though not to yours , D. Potter's assertion ( if it be true ) is apparently very pertinent . And though not a full and totall satisfaction to it , yet very effectuall , and of great moment towards it . For the main question being , what points are necessary to Salvation : and points necessary to Salvation , being of two sorts , some of simple belief , some of Practise and obedience , he that gives you a sufficient summary , of the first sort of necessary points , hath brought you halfe way towards your journies end . And therefore that which he does , is no more to be slighted , as vain and impertinent , then an Architects work is to be thought impertinent towards the making of a house , because he does it not all himselfe . Sure I am , if his assertion be true , as I believe it is , a corollary may presently be deduced from it , which if it were imbraced , cannot in all reason , but doe infinite service , both to the truth of Christ , and the peace of Christendome . For seeing falsehood and errour could not long stand against the power of truth , were they not supported by tyranny and worldly advantages , he that could assert Christians to that liberty which Christ and his Apostles left them , must needs doe Truth a most Heroicall service . And seeing the over-valuing of the differences among Christians , is one of the greatest maintainers of the Schisme of Christendome , he that could demonstrate that only these points of Beliefe , are simply necessary to salvation , wherein Christians generally agree , should he not lay a very faire and firme foundation of the peace of Christendome ? Now the Corollary which I conceive would produce these good effects , and which flowes naturally from D. Potters Assertion , is this , That what Man or Church soever beleeves the Creed , and all the evident consequences of it sincerely and heartily , cannot possibly ( if also he beleeve the Scripture ) be in any Errour of simple beleife which is offensiue to God ; nor therefore deserve for any such Errour to be deprived of his life , or to be cut off from the Churches Communion , and the hope of Salvation . And the production of this againe would be this ( which highly concernes the Church of Rome to think of , ) That whatsoever Man or Church does for any errour of simple beleife , depriue any man so qualified as aboue , either of his temporall life , or liuelyhood or liberty , or of the Churches Communion , and hope of salvation , is for the first uniust , cruell , and tyrannous : Schismaticall , presumptuous , and uncharitable for the second . 13 Neither yet is this ( as you pretend ) to take away the necessity of beleeving those verities of Scripture , which are not contained in the Creed , when once we come to know that they are written in Scripture , but rather to lay a necessity upon men of beleeving all things written in Scripture , when once they know them to be there written . For he that beleeves not all knowne Divine Revelations to be true , how does he believe in God ? Vnlesse you will say , that the same man , at the same time may not believe God , and yet believe in him . The greater difficulty is , how it will not take away the necessity of beleeving Scripture to be the word of God ? But that it will not neither . For though the Creed be granted a sufficient summary of Articles of meere Faith , yet no man pretends that it containes the Rules of obedience , but for them , all men are referred to Scripture . Besides , he that pretends to believe in God , obligeth himselfe to beleeve it necessary to obey that which reason assures him to be the Will of God. Now reason will assure him that beleeves the Creed , that it is the Will of God he should beleeve the Scripture : even the very same Reason which moves him to beleeve the Creed : Vniversall , and never failing Tradition , having given this Testimony both to Creed and Scripture , that they both by the works of God were sealed , & testified to be the words of God. And thus much be spoken in Answere to your first Argument ; the length whereof will be the more excusable , If I oblige my self to say but little to the Rest. 14 I come then to your second . And in Answer to it , denie flatly , as a thing destructive of it self , that any Errour can be damnable , unlesse it be repugnant immediatly or mediatly , directly or indirectly , of it self or by accident , to some Truth for the matter of it fundamentall . And to your example of Pontius Pilat's being Iudge of Christ , I say the deniall of it in him that knowes it to be revealed by God , is manifestly destructive of this fundamentall truth , that all Divine Revelations are true . Neither will you find any errour so much as by accident damnable , but the rejecting of it will be necessarily laid upon us , by a reall beleif of all Fundamentals , and simply necessary Truths . And I desire you would reconcile with this , that which you have said § 15. Every Fundamentall Errour must have a contrary Fundamentall Truth , because , of two Contradictory propositions , in the same degree , the one is false , the other must be true , &c. 15 To the Third I Answer ; That the certainty I have of the Creed , That it was from the Apostles , and containes the principles of Faith , I ground it not upon Scripture , and yet not upon the Infallibility of any present , much lesse of your Church , but upon the Authority of the Ancient Church , and written Tradition , which ( as D. Potter hath proved ) gave this constant Testimony unto it . Besides I tell you , it is guilty of the same fault which D. Potter's Assertion is here accused of : having perhaps some colour toward the proving it false , but none at all to shew it impertinent . 16 To the Fourth , I Answer plainly thus , That you finde fault with D. Potter for his Vertues : you are offended with him for not usurping the Authority which he hath not ; in a word for not playing the Pope . Certainly if Protestants be faulty in this matter , it is for doing it too much , and not too little . This presumptuous imposing of the senses of men upon the words of God , the speciall senses of men upon the generall words of God , and laying them upon mens consciences together , under the equall penaltie of death , and damnation ; this Vaine conceit that we can speak of the things of God , better then in the word of God : This Deifying our owne Interpretations , and Tyrannous inforcing them upon others ; This restraining of the word of God from that latitude and generality , and the understandings of men from that liberty , wherein Christ and Apostles left them , a is , and hath been the only fountaine of all the Schismes of the Church , and that which makes them continue the common incendiary of Christendome , and that which ( as I said before ) teares into pieces , not the coat , but the bowels , and members of Christ : Ridente Turcâ nec dolente Iudae● . Take away these Wals of separation , and all will quickly be one . Take away this Persecuting , Burning , Cursing , Damning of men for not subscribing to the words of men , as the words of God ; Require of Christians only to believe Christ , and to call no man master but him only ; Let those leave claiming Infallibility that have no title to it , and let them that in their words disclaime it , disclaime it likewise in their actions ; In a word , take away tyranny , which is the Divels instrument to support errours , and superstitions , and impieties , in the severall parts of the world , which could not otherwise long withstand the power of Truth , I say take away tyranny , and restore Christians to their just and full liberty of captivating their understanding to Scripture only , and as Rivers when they have a free passage , runne all to the Ocean , so it may well be hoped by Gods blessing , that Vniversall Liberty thus moderated , may quickly reduce Christendome to Truth and Vnitie . These thoughts of peace ( I am perswaded ) may come from the God of peace , and to his blessing I commend them , and proceed . 18 Your fift and last obiection stands upon a false and dangerous supposition : That new Heresies may arise . For an Heresie being in it selfe nothing else but a Doctrine Repugnant to some Article of the Christian Faith , to say that new Heresies may arise , is to say , that new Articles of Faith may arise : and so some great ones among you stick not to professe in plaine tearmes , who yet at the same time are not ashamed to pretend that your whole Doctrine is Catholique and Apostolique . So Salmeron : Non omnibus omnia dedit Deus , ut quaelibetaetas suis gaudeat veritatibus , quas prior aetas ignoravit . God hath not given all things to All ▪ So that every age hath its proper verities , which the former age was ignorant of : Disp. 57. In Ep. ad Rom : And againe in the Margent : Habet Vnumquodque saeculum peculiares revelationes divinas , Every age hath its peculiar Divine Revelations . Where that he speaks of such Revelations as are , or may by the Church be made matters of Faith , no man can doubt that reads him ; an example whereof , he gives us a little before in these words . Vnius Augustini doctrina Assumptionis B. Deiparae cultum in Ecclesiam introduxit . The Doctrine of Augustine only , hath brought in to the Church the Worship of the Assumption of the Mother of God. &c. Others againe mince and palliate the matter with this pretence , that your Church undertakes not to coyne new Articles of faith , but only to declare those that want sufficient declaration . But if sufficient declaration be necessary to make any doctrine an Article of Faith , then this doctrine which before wanted it , was not before an Article of faith ; and your Church by giving it the Essentiall forme , and last complement of an Article of faith , makes it , though not a Truth , yet certainly an Article of faith . But I would faine know , whether Christ and his Apostles knew this Doctrine , which you pretend hath the matter , but wants the forme of an Article of faith , that is , sufficient declaration , whether they knew it to be a necessary Article of the faith , or no! If they knew it not to be so ; then either they taught what they knew not , which were very strange ; or else they taught it not : and if not , I would gladly be informed , seeing you pretend to no new Revelations , from whom you learn't it ? If they knew it , then either they conceal'd or declar'd it . To say they conceal'd any necessary part of the Gospell , is to charge them with farre greater sacriledge , then what was punished in Ananias and Saphira . It is to charge these glorious Stewards , and dispensers of the Mysteries of Christ , with want of the great vertue requisite in a Steward , which is Fidelity . It is to charge them with presumption for denouncing Anathema's , even to Angels , in case they should teach any other doctrine , then what they had received from thē , which sure could not merit an Anathema , if they left any necessary part of the Gospell untaught . It is in a word , in plaine tearmes to give them the lye , seeing they professe plainly and frequently , that they taught Christians the whole doctrine of Christ. If they did know and declare it , then was it a full and formall Article of faith ; and the contrary a full and formall Heresie , without any need of further declaration : and then their Successours either continued the declaration of it , or discontinued : If they did the latter , how are they such faithfull depositaries of Apostolique Doctrine as you pretend ? Or what assurance can you give us , that they might not bring in new and false Articles , as well as suffer the old and true ones to be lost ? If they did continue the declaration of it , and deliver it to their Successours , and they to theirs , and so on perpetually , then continued it still a full and formall Article of faith , and the repugnant doctrine a full and formall Heresie , without and before the definition or declaration of a Councell . So that Councells , as they cannot make that a truth or falshood , which before was not so : so neither can they make or declare that to be an Article of Faith , or an Heresie , which before was not so . The supposition therefore on which this argument stands , being false and runious , whatsoever is built upon it , must together with it fall to the ground . This explication therefore , and restriction of this doctrine , ( whereof you make your advantage ) was to my understanding unnecessary . The Fathers of the Church in after times might have just cause to declare their judgmēt , touching the sense of some generall Articles of the Creed : but to oblige others to receave their declarations under paine of damnation , what warrant they had I know not . He that can shew , either that the Church of all Ages was to have this Authority ; or that it continued in the Church for some Ages , and then expired : He that can shew either of these things let him : for my part I cannot . Yet I willingly confesse the judgment of a Councell , though not infallible , is yet so farre directive , and obliging , that without apparent reason to the contrary , it may be sinne to reject it , at least not to afford it an outward submission for publique peace-sake . 19 Ad § 7. 8. 9. Were I not peradventure more fearefull then I need to be of the imputation of tergiversation , I might very easily rid my hands of the remainder of this Chapter : For in the Question there discussed , you grant ( for ought I see ) as much as D. Potter desires ; and D. Potter grants as much as you desire , and therefore that I should disease my self , or my Reader with a punctuall examination of it , may seeme superfluous . First , that which you would have , and which your Arguments wholy drive at , is this , That the Creed doth not containe all maine and principall poynts of faith of all sorts , whether they be speculacive , or practicall , whether they containe matter of simple beleife , or whether they containe matter of practise and obedience . This D. Potter grants , page 215. 235. And you grant that he grants it , § . 8. Where your words are , as even by D. Potters owne confession , it ( the Creed ) doth not comprehend Agenda , or things belonging to practice , as Sacraments , Commandements , the Acts of hope , and duties Charity . And if you will inferre from hence , that therefore C. M. hath no reason to rest in the Apostles Creed , as a perfect Catalogue of Fundamentalls , and a full satisfaction to his demande , I haue without any offence of D. Potter , granted as much , if that would content you . But seeing you goe on , and because his assertion is not ( as neither is it pretended to be , ) a totall satisfaction to the demand , casheere it as impertinent , and nothing towards it , here I have been bold to stop your proceeding , as unjust and unreasonable . For as if you should request a Friend to lend you , or demand of a debtor to pay you a hundred pounds , and he could or should let you have but fifty , this were not fully to satisfy your demand , yet sure it were not to doe nothing towards it : Or as this rejoynder of mine , though it be not an answer to all your Bookes , but only to the First considerable Part of it , and so much of the Second as is materiall , and falls into the first , yet I hope you will not deal so unkindly with me , as for this reason , to condemne it of impertinence : So D. Potter , being demanded a Catalogue of Fundamentals of Faith , and finding them of two kinds , and those of one kind summ'd up to his hand in the Apostles Creed , and this Creed ▪ consign'd unto him for such a summary by very great Authority , if upon these considerations he hath intreated his Demander to accept of thus much in part of paiment , of the Apostles Creed , as a sufficient summary of these Articles of faith , which are meerely Credenda , me thinkes he hath little reason to complain , that he hath not been fairely , and squarely dealt with . Especially , seeing for full satisfaction , by D. Potter and all Protestants he is referr'd to Scripture , which we affirme containes evidently all necessary points of Faith and rules of obedience : and seeing D. Potter , in the very place hath subjoyned , though not a Catalogue of Fundamentalls , which ( because to some more is Fundamentall , to others lesse , to others nothing at all ) had been impossible , yet such a comprehension of them , as may serve every one , that will make a conscionable use of it , in stead of a Catalogue . For thus he saies , It seemes to be fundamentall to the faith , and for the Salvation of every member of the Church , that he acknowledge and believe all such points of faith , whereof he may be sufficiently convinced that they belong to the Doctrine of Iesus Christ. This generall rule if I should call a Catalogue of Fundamentalls , I should have a President for it with you above exception , I mean your Self ; for , ch . 3. § . 19. just such another proposition you have called by this name . Yet because it were a strange figure of speech , I forbear it ; only I will be bold to say , that this Assertion is as good a Catalogue of Fundamentalls , as any you will bring of your Church proposalls , though you takes as much time to doe it , as he that undertook to make an Asse●speak . 20 I come now to shew that you also have requited D. Potter with a mutuall courteous acknowledgement of his assertion , That the Creed is a sufficient summary of all the necessary Articles of Faith , which are meerely Credenda . 21 First then , § . 8. you haue these words , That it cannot be denied that the Creed is most full and compleat to that purpose , for which the holy Apostles , inspired by God , meant that it should serve , and in that manner as they did intend it , which was , not to comprehend all particular points of faith , but such generall heads as were most befitting and requisite for preaching the faith of Christ , to Iewes and Gentiles , and might be briefly , and compendiously set down , and easily learnt and remembred . These words I say , being fairely examined , without putting them on the rack , will amount , to a full acknowledgement of D. Potters Assertion . But before I put them to the question , I must crave thus much right of you , to grant me this most reasonable postulate , that the doctrine of repentance from dead workes , which S. Paul saith , was one of the two only things which he preacht , and the doctrine of Charity , without which ( the same S. Paul assures us that ) the knowledge of all mysteries , and all faith is nothing , were doctrines more necessary and requisite , and therefore more fit to be preacht to Iewes and Gentiles , then these , under what judge our Saviour suffered , that he was buried , and what time he rose again : which you have taught us cap. 3. § . 2. for their matter and nature in themselves not to be Fundamentall . 22 And upon this grant , I will aske no leave to conclude , that , whereas you say , the Apostles Creed was intended for a comprehension , of such heads of faith , as were most befitting and requisite , for preaching the faith of Christ , &c. You are now , for fear , of too much debasing those high doctrines of Repentance and Charity , to restrain your assertion , as D. Potter does his , and ( though you speak indefinitely ) to say you meant it , only of those heads of faith , which are meerely Credenda . And then the meaning of it , ( if it have any , ) must be this , That the Creed is full for the Apostles intent , which was to comprehend all such generall heads of faith , which being points of simple belief , were most fit and requisite , to be preached to Iewes & Gentiles , and might be briefly and compendiously set down , and easily learned and remembred . Neither I nor you , I believe , can make any other sense of your words then this . And upon this ground thus I subsume . But all the points of belief , which were necessary , under pain of damnation , for the Apostles to preach , and for those to whom the Gospell was preached , particularly to know and believe , were most fit and requisite , nay more then so , necessary to be preached to all both Iewes and Gentiles , and might be briefly and compendiously set down , and easily learnt and remembred : Therefore the Apostles intent by your confession was in this Creed , to comprehend all such points . And you say , the Creed is most full and compleat , for the purpose which they intended . The Major of this Syllogisme is your own . The Minor I should think needs no proof , yet because all men may not be of my mind , I will prove it by its parts ; and the first part thus , There is the same necessity , for the doing of these things , which are commanded to be done , by the same Authority , under the same penalty : But the same Authority viz. Divine , under the same penalty , to wit , of damnation , commanded the Apostles , to preachall these Doctrines which we speak of , and those to whom they were preached , particularly to know and believe them : For we speak of those only , which were so commanded , to be preached and believed : Therefore all these points were alike necessary to be preaced to all both Iewes and Gentiles . Now that all these doctrines we speak of , may be briefly and compendiously set down , and easily learned and remembred , He that remembers , that we spake only of such Doctrines as are necessary to be taught and learned , will require hereof no farther demonstration . For , ( not to put you in minde of what the Poet saies , Non sunt longa quibus nibilest quod demere possis , ) who sees not , that seeing the greatest part of men are of very mean capacities , that it is necessary that that ●ay be learnt easily , which is to be learn't of all ? What then can hinder me from concluding thus , All the Articles of simple belief , which are fit and requisite to be preached , and may easily be remembred , are by your confession comprized in the Creed : But all the necessary Articles of faith are requisite to be preached , and easy to be remembred ; Therefore they are all comprized in the Creed ? Secondly , from grounds granted by you , I argue thus , Points of belief in themselves fundamentall , are more requisite to be preached then those which are not so : ( this is evident . ) But the Apostles have put into their Creed some points that are not in themselves Fundamentall : ( so you confesse , ubisupra . ) Therefore if they have put in all , most requisite to be preached , they have put in all , that in themselves are fundamentall . Thirdly and Lastly , from your own words § . 26. thus I conclude my purpose , The Apostles intention was , particularly to deliver in the Creed such Articles as were fittest for those times , concerning the Deity , Trinity , and Messias ; ( Thus you , now I subsume , ) But all points simply necessary , by vertue of Gods command , to be preached and believed in particular , were as fit for those times as these here mentioned ; Therefore their intention was , to deliver in it particularly all the necessary points of belief . 23 And certainly , he that considers the matter advisedly , either must say that the Apostles were not the Authors of it , or that this was their designe in composing it , or that they had none at all . For whereas you say , their intent was , to comprehend in it , such generall heads as were most befitting and requisite for preaching the faith ; and elsewhere , Particularly to deliver such Articles as were fittest for those times ; Every wise man may easily see that your desire here was , to escape away in a cloud of inde finiteremes . For otherwise , in stead of such generall heads , and such Articles , why did not you say plainly , all such , or some such ? This had been plain dealing , but I fear , crosse to your designe : which yet you have failed of . For that which you have spoken ( though you are loath to speak out , ) either signifies nothing at all ; or that which I and D. Potter affirme : viz. That the Apostles Creed containes all those points of belief , which were by Gods command , of necessity to be preached to all , and believed by all . Neither when I say so , would I be so mistaken ; as if I said , that all points in the Creed are thus necessary : For Punies in Logick , know that universall affirmatives , are not simply converted . And therefore it may be true , that all such necessary points , are in the Creed ; though it be not true , that all points in the Creed are thus necessary : which I willingly grant , of the points by you mentioned . But this rather confirmes , then any way invalidates my assertion . For how could it stand with the Apostles wised●●e , to put in any points circumstantiall and not necessary , and at the same time , to leave out any that were essentiall and necessary for that end , which you say , they proposed to themselves , in making the Creed , that is , The preaching of the faith , to Iewes and Gentiles ? 24 Neither may you hope , to avoid the pressure of these acknowledgements , by pretending as you doe § . 10. that you doe indeed , acknowledge the Creed to contain , all the necessary articles of faith ; but yet so , that they are not either there expressed in it , or de ducible from it , by evident consequence , but only by way of implication or Reduction . For first , not to tell you , that no proposition , is implied in any other , which is not deducible from it ; nor secondly , that the article of the Catholique Church , wherein you will have all implyed , implies nothing to any purpose of yours , unlesse out of meer favour wee will grant the sense of it to be , that the Church is infallible , and that yours is the Church : to passe by all this , and require no answer to it , this one thing I may not omit ; that the Apostles intent was ( by your own confession ) particularly to deliver in the Creed , such articles of belief as were fittest for those times ( and all necessary articles I have proved were such : ) now to deliver particularly , and to deliver only implicitly , to be delivered particularly in the Creed , and only to be reducible to it , I suppose are repugnances hardly reconcileable . And therefore though we desire you , not to grant , that the Creed containes all points of Faith of all sorts , any other way then by implication or reduction , no nor so neither ; yet you have granted , and must grant , of the Fundamentall points of simple belief , those which the Apostles were commanded in particular to teach all men , and all men in particular to know and believe , that these are delivered in the Creed , after a more particular and punctuall manner , then implication or reduction comes to . 25 Ad § . 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. It is vain for you to hope , that the testimonies of the Ancient & Modern Doctors , alleadged to this purpose by D. Potter in great abundance , will be turn'd off , with this generall deceitfull Answer , That the Allegation of them was needlesse to prove , that the Creed containes all points of faith , under pretence that you grant it in manner aforesaid . For what if you grant it in manner aforesaid , yet if you grant it not ( as indeed you doe but inconstantly ) in the sense which their testimonies require , then for all this their testimonies may be alleadged to very good purpose . Now let any man read them , with any tolerable indifference , and he shall find they say plainly , that all points of faith , necessary to be particularly believed , are explicitly contained in the Creed ; and that your glosse of implication and reduction , had it been confronted with their sentences , would have been much out of countenance , as having no ground nor colour of ground in them . For example . If Azorius had thought thus of it , how could he have called it , a A brief comprehension of the faith , and a summe of all things to be believed , and as it were , a signe , or cognizance whereby Christians are to be differenced and distinguished , from the impious and misbelievers , who professe either no faith , or not the right ? If Huntly had been of this mind , how could he have said of it with any congruity , b That the rule of faith is expressely contained in it , and all the prime foundations of faith : And that the Apostles were not so forgetfull as to omit any prime principall foundation of faith in that Creed which they delivered to be believed by all Christians . The words of Filiucius are pregnant to the same purpose , c There cannot bee a fitter Rule , from whence Christians may learn what they are explicitly to belieue , then that which is contained in the Creed . Which words cannot be justified , if all points necessary to be believed explicitely , be not comprised in it . To this end ( saith Putean ) d was the Creed compos'd by the Apostles , that Christians might haue a forme whereby they might professe themselues Catholiques . But certainly the Apostles did this in vain , If a man might professe this , and yet for matter of faith be not a Catholique . 26 The words of Cardinal Richelieu e exact this sense , and refuse your glosse as much as any of the former : The Apostles Creed is the Summary and Abridgment of that faith which is necessary for a Christian ; These holy persons being by the Commandement of Iesus Christ to disperse themselves over the world , and in all parts by preaching the Gospell to plant the faith , esteemed it very necessary to reduce into a short summe all that which Christians ought to know , to the end that being dispersed into divers parts of the world , they might preach the same thing in a short for me , that it might be the easier remembred . For this effect they called this Abridgment a Symbole , which signifies a mark or signe , which might serue to distinguish true Christians , which imbraced it from Infidels which rejected it . Now I would fain know how the composition of the Creed could serue for this end , and secure the Preachers of it , that they should preach the same thing , if there were other necessary Articles not compriz'd in it . Or how could it be a signe to distinguish true Christians from others , if a man might belieue it all , and for want of believing something else , not be a true Christian ? 27 The words of the f Author of the consideration of foure heads propounded King Iames , require the same sense and utterly renounce your qualification . The Symbole is a briefe yet entire Methodicall summe of Christian Doctrine , including all points of faith either to bee preached by the Apostles , or to be believed by their Disciples : Delivered both for a direction unto them , what they were to preach and others to belieue , as also to discern and put a difference betwixt all faithfull Christians and misbelieving Infidels : 28 Lastly , g Gregory of Valence affirmes our Assertion even in termes : The Articles of faith contained in the Creed are as it were the first principles of the Christian faith , in which is contained the summe of Evangelicall doctrine , which all men are bound explicitely to belieue . 29 To these Testimonies of your own Doctors , I should haue added the concurrent suffrages of the ancient Fathers , but the full and free acknowledgment of the same Valentia in the place aboue quoted will make this labour unnecessary . So iudge ( saith hee ) the holy Fathers affirming that his Symbole of faith was composed by the Apostles , that all might haue a short summe of those things which are to be belieued , and are dispersedly contain'd in Scripture . 30 Neither is there any discord between this Assertion of your Doctors , and their holding themselues oblig'd to belieue all the points which the Councell of Trent defines . For Protestants & Papists may both hold , that all points of beliefe necessary to be known & belieued , are summ'd up in the Creed : and yet both the one & the other think themselues bound to belieue whatsoever other points , they either know or belieue to be revealed by God. For the Articles which are necessary to be known that they are revealed by God , may bee very few ; and yet those which are necessary to be believed , when they are revealed and known to be so , may be very many . 31 But Summaries and Abstracts are not intended to specifie all the particulars of the science or subiect to which they belong . Yes if they bee intended for perfect Summaries , they must not omit any necessary doctrine of that Science whereof they are Summaries ; though the Illustration and Reasons of it they may omit . If this were not so , a man might set down forty or fifty of the Principall definitions and divisions , and rules of Logick , and call it a Summary or Abstract of Logick . But sure , this were no more a Summary , then that were the picture of a man in little , that wanted any of the parts of a man ; or that a totall summe wherein all the particulars were not cast up . Now the Apostles Creed you here intimate that it was intended for a Summary : otherwise why talk you here of Summaries , and tell us that they need not contain all the particulars of their science ? And of what I pray may it be a Summary , but of the Fundamentals of Christian faith ? Now you haue already told us , That it is most full and compleat to that purpose for which it was intended . Lay all this together , and I belieue the product will be ; That the Apostles Creed is a perfect Summary of the Fundamentalls of the Christian faith : and what the duty of a perfect Summary is , I haue already told you . 32 Whereas therefore to disproue this Assertion , in divers particles of this Chapter , but especially the fourteenth , you muster up whole armies of doctrines , which you pretend are necessary , and not contain'd in the Creed ; I answer very briefly thus : That the doctrines you mention , are either concerning matters of practise , and not simple beliefe ; or else they are such doctrines wherein God has not so plainly revealed himselfe , but that honest and good men , true Lovers of God and of Truth , those that desire aboue all things to know his will and doe it , may erre , and yet commit no sinne at all , or only a sinne of infirmity , and not destructiue of salvation ; or lastly , they are such Doctrines which God hath plainly revealed , and so are necessary to be belieued when they are known to be divine , but not necessary to be known & believed , not necessary to be known for divine , that they may be believed . Now all these sorts of doctrines are impertinent to the present Question . For D. Potter never affirmed either that the necessary duties of a Christian , or that all Truths piously credible , but not necessary to be believed , or that all Truths necessary to bee believed upon the supposall of divine Revelation , were specified in the Creed . For this he affirmes , only of such speculatiue divine veriries , which God hath commanded particularly to be preached to all , and believed by all . Now let the doctrines objected by you be well considered , and let all those that are reducible to the three former heads be discarded , and then of all these Instances against D. Potters Assertion , there will not remain so much as one . 33 First the Questions touching the conditions to bee performed by us to obtaine remission of sinnes ; the Sacraments ; the Commandements , and the possibility of keeping them , the necessity of imploring the Assistance of Gods Grace and Spirit for the keeping of them : how farre obedience is due to the Church : Prayer for the Dead : The cessation of the old Law : are all about Agenda , and so cut off upon the first consideration . 34 Secondly , the Question touching Fundamentalls , is profitable but not fundamentall . He that belieues all Fundamentals , cannot bee damned for any errour in faith , though he belieue more or lesse to bee fundamental then is so . That also of the procession of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne : of Purgatory : of the Churches Visibility : of the Books of the new Testament which were doubted of by a considerable part of the Primitiue Church : ( untill I see better reason for the contrary then the bare authority of men , ) I shall esteem of the same condition . 35 Thirdly , These Doctrines that Adam and the Angels sinned : that there are Angels good and bad : that those bookes of Scripture which were never doubted of by any considerable part of the Church , are the word of God : that S. Peter had no such primacy as you pretend : that the Scripture is a perfect rule of faith , & consequently that no necessary doctrine is unwritten : that there is no one Society or succession of Christians absolutely infallible : These to my understanding are truths plainly revealed by God , and necessary to be believed by them who know they are so . But not so necessary , that every man & woman is bound under pain of damnation particularly to know thē to be divine Revelations , and explicitely to believe them . And for this reason , these with innumerable other points , are to be referred to the third sort of doctrines aboue mentioned , which were never pretended to haue place in the Creed . There remaines one only point of all that Army you mustred together , reducible to none of these heads , & that is , that God is , and is a Remunerator , which you say is questioned by the deniall of merit . But if there were such a necessary indissoluble coherence between this point and the doctrine of merit , mee thinks with as much reason , and more charity you might conclude , That we hold merit , because we hold this point ; Then that we deny this point , because we deny merit . Besides , when Protestants deny the doctrine of Merits , you know right well , for so they haue declared themselues a thousand times , that they mean nothing else , but with David , that their well doing extendeth not , is not truly beneficiall to God : with our Saviour , when they haue done all which they are commanded , they haue done their duty only , and no curtesie : And lastly , with S. Paul , that all which they can suffer for God ( and yet suffering is more then doing ) is not worthy to bee compared to the glory that shall be revealed . So that you must either misunderstand their meaning in denying Merit , or you must discharge their doctrine of this odious consequence , or you must charge it upon David and Paul and Christ himselfe . Nay you must either grant their deniall of true Merit just & reasonable , or you must say , that our good actions are really profitable to God : that they are not debts already due to him , but voluntary and undeserved Favours : and that they are equall unto and well worthy of eternall glory which is prepar'd for them . As for the inconvenience which you so much feare , That the deniall of Merit makes God a Giver only , & not a Rewarder , I tell you , good Sir , you feare where no feare is , and that it is both most true on the one side , that you in holding good Works meritorious of eternall glory make God a rewarder only & not a giver , contrary to plain Scripture , affirming that The gift of God is eternall life ; And that it is most false on the other side , that the doctrine of Protestants makes God a giver only and not a rewarder : In as much as their doctrine is , That God giues not Heaven but to those which doe something for it , and so his gift is also a Reward ; but withall that whatsoever they doe is due unto God before hand , and worth nothing to God , and worth nothing in respect of Heaven , and so mans work is no Merit , and Gods reward is still a Gift . 36 Put the case the Pope , for a reward of your service done him in writing this Book , had given you the honour and meanes of a Cardinall , would you not , not only in humility but in sincerity haue professed , that you had not merited such a Reward ? And yet the Pope is neither your Creatour nor Redeemer , nor Preserver , nor perhaps your very great Benefactour , sure I am , not so great as God Almighty , and therefore hath no such right and title to your service as God hath in respect of precedent obligations . Besides , the work you haue done him hath been really advantagious to him : and lastly , not altogether unproportionable to the fore-mentioned Reward . And therefore if by the same work you will pretend that either you haue or hope to haue deserved immortall happinesse , I beseech you consider well whether this be not to set a higher value upon a Cardinal's cap , then a Crowne of immortall glory , and with that Cardinall to prefer a part in Paris before a part in Paradise . 37 In the next Paragraph you beat the ayre again , and fight manfully with your own shadow . The point you should haue spoken to , was this , That there are some points of simple beliefe necessary to bee explicitely believed , which yet are not contained in the Creed . Insteed hereof you trouble your selfe in vain to demonstrate , That many important points of faith , are not contained in it , which yet D. Potter had freely granted , and you your selfe take particular notice of his granting of it . All this paines therefore you have imployed to no purpose : saving that to some negligent Reader you may seem to have spoken to the very point , because that which you speak to , at the first hearing , sounds somewhat neere it . But such a one I must intreat to remember , there be many more points of faith then there be Articles of Simple belief , necessary to be explicitly believed : And that though all of the former sort are not contained in the Creed , yet all of the latter sort may be . As for your distinction , between Heresies that have been , and Heresies that are , and Heresies that may be , I have already proved it vaine ; and that whatsoever may be an Heresie , that is so ; and whatsoever is so , that alwaies hath been so , ever since the publication of the Gospell of Christ. The doctrine of your Church may like a snow-ball increase with rowling , and again if you please melt away and decrease : But as Christ Iesus , so his Gospell , is yesterday and to day , and the same for ever . 38 Our Saviour sending his Apostles to preach , gave them no other commission then this : Goe teach all nations , Baptizing them in the name of the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy-Ghost , teaching them to observe all things , whatsoever I have commanded you . These were the bounds of their commission . If your Church have any larger , or if she have a commission at large , to teach what she pleases , and call it the Gospell of Christ , let her produce her Letters-patents from heaven for it . But if this be all you have , then must you give me leave to esteeme it both great sacriledge in you to forbid any thing , be it never so small or ceremonious , which Christ hath commanded : as the receiving of the Communion in both kindes : and as high a degree of presumption , to enjoyne men to believe , that there are or can be any other fundamentall Articles of the Gospell of Christ , then what Christ himselfe commanded his Apostles to teach all men ; or any damnable Heresies , but such as are plainly repugnant to these prime Verities . 39 Ad § . 16. 17. The saying of the most learned Prelate , and excellent man , the Arch-Bishop of Armach , is only related by D. Potter p. 155. and not applauded : though the truth is , both the Man deserves as much applause as any man , and his saying as much as any saying ; it being as great , and as good a truth , and as necessary for these miserable times , as possibly can be uttered . For this is most certain , and I believe you will easily grant it , that to reduce Christians to unity of Communion , there are but two waies that may be conceived probable : The one , by taking away diversity of opinions touching matters of Religion : The other by shewing that the diversity of opinions , which is among the severall Sects of Christians , ought to be no hinderance to their Vnity in Communion . 40 Now the former of these is not to be hoped for without a miracle , unlesse that could be done , which is impossible to be performed , though it be often pretended ; that is , unlesse it could be made evident to all men , that God hath appointed some visible Iudge of Controversies , to whose judgement all men are to submit themselves . What then remaines , but that the other way must be taken , and Christians must be taught to ser a higher value upon these high points of faith and obedience wherein they agree , then upon these matters of lesse moment wherein they differ , and understand that agreement in those , ought to be more effectuall to joyne them in one Communion , then their difference in other things of lesse moment to divide them ? When I say , in one Communion , I mean , in a common Profession of those articles of faith , wherein all consent : A joynt worship of God , after such a way as all esteem lawfull ; and a mutuall performance of all those works of charity , which Christians own one to another . And to such a Communion what better inducement could be thought of , then to demonstrate that what was universally believed of all Christians , if it were joyned with a love of truth , and with holy obedience , was sufficient to bring men to heaven ? For why should men be more rigid then God ? Why should any errour exclude any man from the Churches Communion , which will not deprive him of eternall salvation ? Now that Christians doe generally agree in all those points of doctrine , which are necessary to Salvation , it is apparent , because they agree with one accord , in believing all those Bookes of the Old and New Testament , which in the Church were never doubted of to be the undoubted word of God. And it is so certain that in all these Bookes , all necessary doctrines are evidently contained , that of all the four Evangelists this is very probable , but of S. Luke most apparent , that in every one of their Bookes they have comprehended the whole substance of the Gospell of Christ. For what reason can be imagined , that any of them should leave out any thing which he knew to be necessary , and yet ( as apparently all of them have done ) put in many things which they knew to be only profitable and not necessary ? What wise and honest man that were now to write the Gospell of Christ , would doe so great a work of God after such a negligent ●ashon ? Suppose Xaverius had been to write the Gospell of Christ for the Indians , think you he would have left out any Fundamentall doctrine of it ? If not , I must beseech you to conceive as well of S. Mathew , and S. Marke , and S. Luke , and S. Iohn , as you doe of Xaverius . Besides , if every one of them have not in them all necessary doctrines , how have they complied with their own designe , which was , as the titles of their Bookes shew , to write the Gospell of Christ , and not a part of it ? Or how have thy not deceived us , in giving them such titles ? By the whole Gospell of Christ , I understand not the whole History of Christ , but all that makes up the Covenant between God and man. Now if this be wholly contained in the Gospell of S. Marke and S. Iohn , I believe every considering man will bee inclinable to believe that then without doubt , it is contained , with the advantage of many other very profitable things , in the larger Gospells of S. Matthew , and S. Luke . And that S. Markes Gospell wants no necessary Article of this Covenant , I presume you will not deny , if you believe Irenaeus when he saies , Mathew to the Hebrewes in their tongue published the Scripture of the Gospell : When Peter and Paul did preach the Gospell , and found the Church or a Church at Rome , or of Rome , and after their departure Mark the scholler of Peter , delivered to us in writing those things which had been preached by Peter ; and Luke , the follwer of Paul , compiled in a book the Gospell which was preached by him : And afterwards Iohn , residing in Asia , in the Citty of Ephesus , did himselfe also set forth a Gospell . 41 In which words of Irenaeus , it is remarkable that they are spoken by him against some Heretiques , that pretended ( as you know who doe now adaies ) that some necessary Doctrines of the Gospell were unwritten , and that out of the Scriptures , truth ( he must mean sufficient truth , ) cannot be found by those which know not Tradition . Against whom to say , that part of the Gospell which was preached by Peter was written by S. Marke , and some other necessary parts of it omitted , had been to speak impertinently , and rather to confirme then confute their errour . It is plain therefore , that he must mean , as I pretend , that all the necessary doctrine of the Gospell , which was preached by S. Peter , was written by S. Marke . Now you will not deny , I presume , that S. Peter preached all , therefore you must not deny that S. Marke wrote all . 42 Our next inquiry let it be touching S. Iohns intent in writing his Gospell , whether it were to deliver so much truth , as being believed and obeyed would certainly bring men to eternall life , or only part of it , and to leave part unwritten ? A great man there is , but much lesse then the Apostle , who saith , that writing last , he purposed to supply the defects of the other Evangelists , that had wrote before him : which ( if it were true ) would sufficiently justify what I have undertaken , that at least all the four Evangelists have in them , all the necessary parts of the Gospell of Christ. Neither will I deny , but S. Iohns secondary intent might be to supply the defects of the former three Gospels , in some things very profitable . But he that pretends , that any necessary doctrine is in S. Iohn which is in none of the other Evangelists , hath not so well considered them as he should doe , before he pronounce sentence of so weighty a matter . And for his prime intent in writing his Gospell , what that was , certainly no Father in the world understood it better then himselfe . Therefore let us hear him speak : Many other signes ( saith he ) also did Iesus in the sight of his Disciples , which are not written in this Book : But these are written , that you may believe that Iesus is Christ the sonne of God , and that believing you may have life in his name . By ( these are written ) may be understood , either these things are written , or these signes are written . Take it which way you will , this conclusion will certainly follow , That either all that which S. Iohn wrote in his Gospell , or lesse then all , and therefore all much more was sufficient to make them believe that which being believed with lively faith , would certainly bring them to eternall life . 43 This which hath been spoken ( I hope ) is enough to justify my undertaking to the full , that it is very probable that every one of the foure Evangelists has in his book the whole substance , all the necessary parts of the Gospell of Christ. But for S. Luke , that he hath written such a perfect Gospell , in my judgement it ought to be with them that believe him , no manner of question . Consider first the introduction to his Gospell , where he declares what he intends to write , in these words , For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things , which are most surely believed amongst us , even as they delivered unto us , which from the beginning were eye-witnesses , and ministers of the word , it seemed good to me also , having had perfect understanding of things from the first , to write to thee in order , most excellent Theophilus , that thou mightest know the certainty , of those things wherein thou hast been instructed . Adde to this place , the entrāce to his History of the Acts of the Apostles : The former treatise have I made , O Theophilus , of all that Iesus began both to doe and teach , untill the day in which he was taken up . Weigh well these two places , and then answer me freely and ingenuously to these demands . 1. Whether S. Luke does not undertake the very same thing which he saies , many had taken in hand ? 2. Whether this were not to set forth in order , a declaration of those things which are most surely believed amongst Christians ? 3. Whether the whole Gospell of Christ , and every necessary doctrine of it , were not surely believed among Christians ? 4. Whether they which were Eye-witnesses and ministers of the word from the begining , delivered not the whole Gospell of Christ ? 5. Whether he does not undertake to write in order these things whereof he had perfect understanding from the first ? 6. Whether he had not perfect understanding of the whole Gospell of Christ ? 7. Whether he doth not undertake to write to Theophilus of all those things wherein he had been instructed ? 8. And whether he had not been instructed in all the necessary parts of the Gospell of Christ ? 9. Whether in the other Text , All things which Iesus began to doe and teach , must not at least imply , all the Principall and necessary things ? 10. Whether this be not the very interpretation of your Rhemish Doctors , in their Annotation upon this place ? 11. Whether all these Articles of the Christian faith , without the belief whereof , no man can be saved , be not the Principall and most necessary things which Iesus taught . 12. And lastly , whether many things which S. Luke has wrote in his Gospell , be not lesse principall , and lesse necessary then all and every one of these ? When you have well considered these proposalls , I believe you will be very apt to think ( if S. Luke be of credit with you ) That all things necessary to salvation , are certainly contained in his writings alone . And from hence you will not choose but conclude , that seeing all the Christians in the world , agree in the belief of what S. Luke hath written , and not only so , but in all other Books of Canonicall Scripture , which were never doubted of in and by the Church , the Learned Arch-Bishop had very just , and certain ground to say , That in these Propositiōs , which without Controversy are universally received in the whole Christian world , so much truth is contained , as being joyned with holy obedience , may be sufficient to bring a man to everlasting Salvation ; and that we have no cause to doubt , but that as many as walk according to this rule , neither overthrowing that which they have builded , by superinducing any damnable Heresy thereupon , nor otherwise vitiating their holy faith , with a lewd and wicked conversation , peace shall be upon them , and upon the Israel of God. 44 Against this , you object two things . The one , that by this Rule , seeing the Doctrine of the Trinity is not received universally among Christians , the deniall of it shall not exclude Salvation . The other ; that the Bishop contradicts himselfe , in supposing a man may belieue all necessary Truths , and yet superinduce some damnable Heresies . 45 To the first I answere , what I conceive he would , whose words I here justify , that he hath declared plainly in this very place , that he meant , not an absolute , but a limited Vniversality , and speaks not of propositions universally believed by all Professions of Christianity that are , but only , by all those severall Professions of Christiany , that have any large spread in any part of the world . By which words he excludes from the universality here spoken of , the denyers of the Doctrine of the Trinity , as being but a handfull of men , in respect of all , nay in respect of any of these professions which maintain it . And therefore it was a great fault in you , either willingly to conceal these words , which evacuate your objection , or else negligently to oversee them . Especially seeing your friend , to whom you are so much beholding , Paulus Veridicus , in his scurrilous and sophisticall Pamphlet , against B. Vshers Sermon , hath so kindly offered to lead you by the hand to the observation of them , in these words : To consider of your Coinopista , or communitèr Credenda , Articles , as you call them , universally believed of all these severall Professions of Cristianity , which have any large spread in the World : These Articles for example , may be the Vnity of the Godhead , the Trinity of persons , the immortality of the Soule , &c. Where you see that your friend , whom you so much magnify , hath plainly confessed that , notwithstanding the Bishops words , the denyall of the doctrine of the Trinity , may exclude Salvation ; and therefore in approving and applauding his Answer to the Bishops Sermon , you have unawares allowed this Answer of mine to your own greatest objection . 46 Now for the foule contradiction , which you say the Doctor might easily haue espied in the Bishops saying , he desires your pardon for his oversight , for Paulus Veridicus his sake ; who though he set him selfe to finde faults with the Bishops Sermon , yet it seemes this hee could not finde , or else questionlesse wee should haue heard of it from him . And therefore if D. Potter , being the Bishops friend , haue not been more sharp-sighted then his enemies , this he hopes to indifferent judges , will seem no unpardonable offence . Yet this I say , not as if there were any contradiction at all , much lesse any foul contradiction in the Bishops words ; but as Antipherons picture , which he thought he saw in the ayre before him , was not in the ayre but in his disturb'd phansie● so all the contradiction which here you descant upon , is not indeed in the Bishops saying , but in your imagination . For wherein , I pray , lies this foule contradiction ? In supposing ( say you ) a man may believe all Truths necessary to salvation , and yet superinduce a damnable Heresie . I answer , It is not certain that his words doe suppose this : neither if they doe , does he contradict himselfe . I say it is not certain that his words import any such matter . For ordinarily men use to speake and write so , as here he does , when they intend not to limit or restrain , but only to repeat and presse & illustrate what they haue said before . And I wonder , why with your Eagles eyes you did not espy another foule contradiction in his words as well as this ; and say , that he supposes a man may walk according to the rule of holy obedience , and yet vitiate his holy faith with a lewd and wicked conversation ? Certainly a lewd conversation is altogether as contradictious to holy obedience , as a damnable heresie to necessary truth . What then was the reason that you espied not this foule contradiction in his words , as well as that ? Was it because , according to the spirit and Genius of your Church , your zeal is greater to that which you conceive true doctrine , then holy obedience ; and think simple errour a more capitall crime , then sins committed against knowledge and conscience ? Or was it because your Reason told you , that herein he meant onely to repeat and not to limit what he said before ? And why then had you not so much candour to conceave , that he might haue the same meaning in the former part of the disiunction ; and intend no more but this , Whosoever walks according to this rule of believing all necessary Truths and holy obedience , ( neither poisoning his faith of those Truths which he holds , with the mixture of any damnable Heresie , nor vitiating it with a wicked life ) Peace shall be upon him ! In which words what man of any ingenuity will not presently perceive that the words within the parenthesis , are only a repetition of , and no exception from those that are without ? S. Athanasius in his Creed tells us , The Catholique Faith is this , that we worship one God in Trinity , and Trinity in Vnity , neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance ; and why now doe you not tell him that he contradicts himselfe , and supposes that we may worship a Trinity of Persons , and one God in substance , and yet confound the Persons , or divide the substance ; which yet is impossible , because Three remaining Three , cannot be confounded , and One remaining One cannot be divided ? If a man should say unto you , he that keeps all the Commandements of God , committing no sinne either against the loue of God , or the loue of his neighbour , is a perfect man : Or thus , he that will liue in constant health had need be exact in his diet , neither eating too much , nor too little : Or thus , hee that will come to London must goe on straight forward in such a way , and neither turn to the right hand or to the left ; I verily belieue you would not finde any contradiction in his words , but confesse them as coherent and consonant as any in your Book . And certainly if you would look upon this saying of the Bishop with any indifference , you would easily perceive it to be of the very same kinde , & capable of the very same construction . And therefore one of the grounds of your accusation is uncertain . Neither can you assure us , that the Bishop supposes any such matter as you pretend . Neither if he did suppose this ( as perhaps he did ) were this to contradict himselfe . For though there can be no damnable Heresie , unlesse it contradict some necessary Truth , yet there is no contradiction but the same man may at once belieue this Heresie and this Truth ; because there is no contradiction that the same man , at the same time , should believe contradictions . For , first , whatsoever a man believes true , that he may and must believe ; But there haue been some who have believed and taught that contradictions might be true , against whom Aristotle disputes in the third of his Metaphysicks ; Therefore it is not impossible that a man may belieue Contradictions . Secondly , they which believe there is no certainty in Reason , must belieue that contradictions may be true : For otherwise there will be certainty in this Reason ; This contradicts Truth therefore it is false . But there be now divers in the world who believe there is no certainty in reason , ( and whether you be of their minde or no , I desire to be inform'd ; ) Therefore there be divers in the world who believe contradictions may be true . Thirdly , They which doe captivate their understandings to the beliefe of those things which to their understanding seem irreconcileable contradictions , may as well belieue reall contradictions : ( For the difficulty of believing arises not from their being repugnant , but from their seeming to be so : ) But you doe captivate your understandings to the beliefe of those things which seem to your understandings irreconcileable contradictions ; Therefore it is as possible and easie for you to believe those that indeed are so . Fourthly , some men may be confuted in their errours , and perswaded out of them ; but no mans errour can be confuted , who together with his errour doth not believe and grant some true principle that contradicts his Errour : for nothing can bee proved to him who grants nothing , neither can there be ( as all men know ) any rationall discourse but out of grounds agreed upon by both parts . Therfore it is not impossible but absolutely certain , that the same man at the same time may believe contradictions . Fiftly , It is evident , neither can you without extream madnesse and uncharitablenesse , deny , that we belieue the Bible , those Books I mean which we believe Canonicall : Otherwise why dispute you with us out of them , as out of a common Principle ? Either therefore you must retract your opinion , and acknowledge that the same man at the same time may believe cōtradictions , or else you will run into a greater inconvenience , and be forc'd to confesse , that no part of our Doctrine contradicts the Bible . Sixtly , I desire you to vindicate from contradiction these following Assertions : That there should be Length and nothing long : Breadth , & nothing broad : Thicknesse , and nothing thick : Whitenesse , & nothing white : Roundnesse , and nothing round : Weight , and nothing heavy : Sweetnesse , and nothing sweet : Moisture , and nothing moist : Fluidnesse , and nothing flowing : many Actions , and no Agent : Many Passions , and no Patient : That is , that there should be a Long , broad , thick , white , round , heavy , sweet , moist , flowing , active , passive , nothing ! That Bread should be turned into the substance of Christ , and yet not any thing of the Bread become any thing of Christ ; neither the matter , not the form , not the Accidents of Bread , be made either the matter or the Forme , or the Accidents of Christ. That Bread should be turned into nothing , and at the same time with the same action turn'd into Christ , and yet Christ should not be nothing . That the same thing at the same time should haue its just dimensions , and just distance of its parts , one from another , and at the same time not haue it , but all its parts together in one & the selfe same point . That the body of Christ , which is much greater , should be contained wholly and in its full dimensions without any alteration , in that which is lesser , and that not once only , but as many times over as there are severall points in the Bread and Wine . That the same thing at the same time should bee wholly aboue it selfe , and wholly below it selfe , within it selfe , and without it selfe , on the right hand , and on the left hand , and round about it selfe . That the same thing at the same time should moue to and from it selfe , and lye still : Or that it should be carried from one place to another through the middle space , and yet not move . That it should be brought from heaven to earth , and yet not come out of Heaven , nor be at all in any of the middle space between Heaven and Earth . That to be one , should be to be undivided from it selfe , and yet that one and the same thing should be divided from it selfe . That a thing may be , & yet be no where . That a Finite thing may be in all places at once . That a Body may be in a place , and haue there its dimensions , & colour , & all other qualities , and yet that it is not in the power of God to make it visible , and tangible there , nor capable of doing or suffering any thing . That there should be no certainty in our senses , and yet that we should know something certainly , & yet know nothing but by our sēses . That that which is , and was long agoe , should now begin to be . That that is now to be made of nothing , which is not nothing but something . That the same thing should be before and after it selfe . That it should bee truly and really in a place , and yet without Locality . Nay , that hee which is Omnipotēt should not be able to give it Locality in this place , where it is , as some of you hold : or if he can , as others say he can , that it should be possible , that the same man , for example You or I , may at the sametime , be awake at London , and not awake but asleep at Rome : There run or walk , here not run or walk , but stand still , sit , or lye along : There study or write , here doe neither , but dine or sup : There speak , here be silent . That he may in one place freez for cold , in another burn with heat . That he may be drunk in one place , and sober in another : Valiant in one place , and a Coward in another : A theef in one place , honest in another . That he may be a Papist and goe to Masse in Rome ; A Protestant and goe to Church in England . That he may dye in Rome , and liue in England : or ' dying in both places may goe to Hell from Rome , and to Heaven from England . That the Body and Soule of Christ should cease to be where it was , & yet not goe to another place , nor be destroyed . All these , and many other of the like nature are the unavoidable , & most of them the acknowledged consequences of your doctrine of Transubstantiation , as is explained one where or other by your School-men . Now I beseech you , Sir , to try your skill , & if you can compose their repugnance , and make peace between them ; Certainly , none but you shall be Catholique Moderator . But if you cannot doe it , and that after an intelligible manner , then you must give me leave to believe , that either you doe not believe Transubstantiation , or else that it is no contradiction , that men should subjugate their understandings to the belief of contradictions . 47 Lastly , I pray tell me whether you have not so much Charity in store for the Bishop of Armach , and D. Potter , as to think that they themselves believe this saying , which the one preacht and printed , the other reprinted , and as you say applauded ? If you think they doe , then certainly you have done unadvisedly , either in charging it with a foul contradiction , or in saying , it is impossible , that any man should at once believe contradictions . Indeed that men should not assent to contradictions , and that it is unreasonable to doe so , I willingly grant : But to say it is impossible to be done , is against every mans experience , and almost as unreasonable , as to doe the thing which is said to be impossible . For though perhaps it may be very difficult , for a man in his ●ight wits , to believe a contradiction expressed in termes , especially if he believe it to be a contradiction , yet for men being cowed and awed by superstition , to perswade themselves upon slight and triviall grounds , that these or these , though they seem contradictions , yet indeed are not so , and so to believe them : or if the plain repugnance of them , be veil'd and disguis'd a little , with some empty unintelligible non-sense distinction ; or if it be not exprest but implyed , not direct but by consequence , so that the parties , to whose faith the propositions are offerd , are either innocently , or perhaps affectedly ignorant of the contrariety of them : for men in such cases , easily to swallow and digest contradictions , he that denies it possible , must be a meer stranger in the world . 48 Ad § . 18. This Paragraph consists of two immodest untruths , obtruded upon us without shew , or shadow of Reason : and an evident sophisme , grounded upon an affected mistake of the sense of the word Fundamentall . 49 The first untruth is , that D. Potter makes a Church , of men agreeing scarcely in one point of faith : of men concurring in some one or few Articles of belief , and in the rest holding conceits plainly contradictory : Agreeing only in this one Article , that Christ is our Saviour ; but for the rest , like to the parts of a Chimaera &c. Which I say is a shamelesse calumny , not only because D. Potter in this point delivers not his own judgement , but relates the opinion of others , M. Hooker , and M. Morton ; but especially , because even these men ( as they are related by D. Potter ) to the constituting of the very essence of a Church , in the lowest degree , require not only Faith in Christ Iesus the sonne of God and Saviour of the World , but also submission to his Doctrine in mind and will. Now I beseech you Sir , tell me ingenuously , whether the doctrine of Christ may be called without blasphemy , scarcely one point of Faith ? or whether it consists only , of some one or few Articles of belief ? Or whether there be nothing in it , but only this Article , That Christ is our Saviour ? Is it not manifest to all the world , that Christians of all Professions doe agree with one consent , in the belief of all those Bookes of Scripture , which were not doubted of in the ancient Church , without danger of damnation ? Nay is it not apparent , that no man at this time , can without hypocrisy , pretend to believe in Christ , but of necessity he must doe so ? Seeing he can have no reason to believe in Christ , but he must have the same to believe the Scripture . I pray then read over the Scripture once more , or if that be too much labour , the New Testament only : and then say whether there be nothing there , but scarcely one point of Faith ? But some one or two Articles of beleif ? Nothing but this Article onely , that Christ is our Saviour ? Say whether there be not there an infinite number of Divine Verities , Divine precepts , Divine promises , and those so plainly and undoubtedly delivered , that if any sees them not , it cannot be because he cannot , but because he will not ! So plainly , that whosoever submits syncerely to the doctrine of Christ , in mind and will , cannot possibly but submit to these in act and performance . And in the rest , which it hath pleased God , for reasons best known to himselfe , to deliver obscurely or ambiguously , yet thus farre at least they agree , that the sense of them intended by God , is certainly true , and that they are without passion or prejudice to endeavour to find it out : The difference only is , which is that true sense which God intended . Neither would this long continue , if the walls of separation , whereby the Divell hopes to make their Divisions eternall , were pulled down ; and errour were not supported against Truth , by humane advantages . But for the present , God forbid the matter should be so ill as you make it ! For whereas you looking upon their points of difference and agreement , through I know not what strange glasses , have made the first innumerable , and the other scarce a number : the truth is clean contrary ; That those divine Verities , Speculative and Practicall , wherein they universally agree ( which you will have to be but a few , or but one , or scarcely one ) amount to many millions , ( i● an exact account were taken of them : ) And on the other side , the Ponts in variance , are in comparison but few , and those not of such a quality , but the Error in them may well consist with the belief & obedience of the entire Covenant , ratified by Christ between God and man. Yet I would not be so mistaken , as if I thought the errours even of some Protestants unconsiderable things , and matters of no moment . For the truth is , I am very fearfull , that some of their opinions , either as they are , or as they are apt to be mistaken , ( though not of themselves so damnable , but that good and holy men may be saved with thē , yet ) are too frequent occasions of our remisnes , and slacknesse , in running the race of Christian Profession , of our deferring Repentance , and conversion to God , of our frequent relapses into sinne , & not seldome of security in sinning ; & consequently , though not certain causes , yet too frequent occasions of many mens damnation : and such I conceive all these doctrines , which either directly or obliquely , put men in hope of eternall happinesse , by any other means saving only the narrow way of sincere and universall obedience , grounded upon a true and lively faith . These Errours therefore , I doe not elevate or extenuate : and on condition the ruptures made by them might be composed , doe heartily wish , that the cement were made of my deerest blood , and only not to be an Anathema from Christ ! Only this I say , that neither are their points of agreement so few , nor their differences so many , as you make them ; nor so great as to exclude the opposite Parties from being members of one Church Militant , & joynt heires of the glory of the Church Triumphant . 50 Your other palpable untruth is , that Protestants are farre more bold to disagree even in matters of faith , then Catholique Divines ( you mean your own , ) in Questions meerely Philosophicall , or not determined by the Church . For neither doe they differ at all , in matters of faith , if you take the word in the highest sense , and mean by matters of faith , such doctrines as are absolutely necessary to Salvation , to be believed or not to be disbelieved . And then in those wherein they doe differ , with what colour or shadow of Argument , can you make good , that they are more bold to disagree , then you are in Questions meerely Philosophicall , or not determined by the Church ? For is there not as great repugnancy between your assent and dissent , your affirmation and negation , your Est Est , Non Non , as there is between theirs ? You follow your Reason , in those things wich are not determined by your Church ; and they theirs , in things not plainly determined in Scripture . And wherein then consists their greater , their farre greater boldnesse ? And what if they in their contradictory opinions , pretend both to rely upon the truth of God , doth this make their contradictions ever a whit the more repugnant ? I had alwaies thought , that all contradictions had been equally contradictions , and equally repugnant ; because the least of them are as farre asunder , as Est and Non Est can make them , and the greatest are no farther . But then you in your differences , ( by name , about Predetermination , the Immaculate Conception , the Popes Infallibility , ) upon what other motive doe you rely ? Doe not you cite Scripture , or Tradition , or both , on both sides ? And doe you not pretend , that both these are the infallible Truths of Almighty God ? 51 You close up this Section with a fallacy , proving forsooth , that we destroy , by our confession , the Church which is the house of God , because we stand only upon Fundamentall Articles , which cannot make up the whole fabrick of the faith , no more then the foundation of a house alone can be a house . 52 But I hope , Sir , you will not be difficult in granting , that that is a house which hath all the necessary parts belonging to a house : Now by Fundamentall Articles , we mean all those which are necesry . And you your selfe , in the very leafe after this , take notice that D. Potter does so . Where to this Question : How shall I know in particular which points be , and which be not Fundamentall ? You scurrilously bring him in making this ridiculous answer , Read my Answer to a late Pamphlet intituled Charity Mistaken &c. There you shall find that Fundamentall doctrines are such Catholique Verities , as principally , and essentially pertain to the faith , such as properly constitute a Church , and are necessary ( in ordinary course ) to be distinctly believed by every Christian that will be saved . All which wordes he us'd , not to tell you what points be fundamentall , as you dishonestly impose upon him , but to explain what he meant by the word Fundamentall . May it please you therefore now at last , to take notice , that by Fundamentall we mean all and only that which is necessary ; and then I hope you will grant , that we may safely expect salvation in a Church which hath all things fundamentall to Salvation ! Vnlesse you will say , that more is necessary , then that which is necessary . 53 This long discourse , so full of un-ingenious dealing with your adversary , perhaps would have done reasonably in a Faire or a Comedy , & I doubt not but you have made your selfe & your courteous Readers good sport with it . But if D. Potter or I , had been by when you wrote it , we should have stopt your carere at the first starting , & have put you in mind of these old Schoole Proverbs , Exfalso supposito sequitur quodlibet , and Vno absurdo dato , seq●untur mille . For whereas you suppose , first , that to a man desirous to save his soul , and requiring , whose direction he might rely upon ? the Doctors answer would be , Vpon the truly Catholique Church : I suppose upon better reason , because I know his mind , that he would advise him to call no man Master on Earth , but according to Christs command , to rely upon the direction of God himselfe . If he should enquire where he should find this direction ? He would answer him ; In his word contained in Scripture . If he should enquire what assurance he might have , that the Scripture is the word of God ? He would answer him , that the doctrine it selfe is very fit and worthy to be thought to come from God , nec vox hominem sonat , and that they which wrote and delivered it , confirmed it to be the word of God , by doing such works as could not be done , but by power from God himselfe . For assurance of the Truth hereof , he would advise him to rely upon that , which all wise men , in all matters of belief rely upon ; and that is , the Consent of Ancient Records , and Vniversall Tradition . And that he might not instruct him as partiall in this advise , he might farther tell him , that a gentleman that would be namelesse , that has written a book against him , called Charity maintained by Catholiques , though in many things he differ from him , yet agrees with him in this , that Tradition is such a principle as may be rested in , and which requires no other proof . As indeed no wise man doubts but there was such a man as Iulius Caesar , or Cicero , that there are such Citties as Rome or Constantinople , though he have no other assurance for the one or the other , but only the speech of people . This tradition therefore he would counsell him to rely upon , and to believe that the book which we call Scripture , was confirmed abundantly by the workes of God , to be the word of God. Believing it the word of God , he must of necessity believe it true : and if he believe it true , he must believe it containes all necessary directions unto eternall happinesse , because it affirmes it selfe to doe so . Nay he might tell him , that so farre is the whole book , from wanting any necessary direction to his eternall Salvation , that one only Author , that hath writ but two little bookes of it , S. Luke by name in the begining of his Gospell , and in the begining of his Story , shewes plainly that he alone hath written at least so much as is necessary . And what they wrote , they wrote by Gods direction , for the direction of the world , not only for the Learned , but for all that would doe their true endeavour to know the will of God , and to doe it ; therefore you cannot but conceive , that writing to all and for all , they wrote so as that in things necessary they might be understood by all . Besides that , here he should finde , that God himselfe has engaged himselfe by promise , that if he would loue him , and keep his Commandements , and pray earnestly for his spirit , and bee willing to be directed by it , he should undoubtedly receiue it , even the Spirit of Truth which shall lead him into all truth ; that is certainly , into all necessary Truths , and suffer him to fall into no pernicious errour . The summe of his whole direction to him briefly would be this , Believe the Scripture to be the word of God , use your true endeavour to finde the true sense of it , and to liue according to it , and then you may rest securely that you are in the true way to eternall happinesse . This is the substance of that Answer which the Doctor would make to any man in this case ; and this is a way so plain , that fooles , unlesse they will , cannot erre from it . Because not knowing absolutely all truth , nay not all profitable truth , and not being free from errour ; but endeavoring to know the truth and obey it , and endeavouring to be free from errour , is by this way made the onely condition of salvation . As for your supposition , That he would advise such a man to rely upon the Catholique Church for the finding out the doctrine of Christ , hee utterly disclaimes it , and truly very justly : There being no certaine way to know that any company is a true Church , but only by their professing the true doctrine of Christ. And therefore as it is impossible I should know such a company of Philosophers are Peripateticks , or Stoicks , unlesse I first know what was the doctrine of the Peripateticks , and Stoicks ; so is it impossible that I should certainly know any company to be the Church of Christ , before I know what is the doctrine of Christ , the Profession whereof constitutes the visible Church , the Beliefe and Obedience the invisible . And therefore whereas you would have him be directed by the Catholique Church to the doctrine of Christ ; the contrary rather is most certaine and necessary , that by the foreknowledge of the doctrine of Christ , he must be directed to a certaine assurance , which is , if he meane not to choose at a venture , but desire to have certaine direction to it . This supposition therefore , being the hinge whereon your whole discourse turnes , is the Minerva of your owne Brayne ; and therefore were it but for this , have we not great reason to accuse you of strange immodesty , in saying as you doe , That The whole discourse & inferences which here you have made , are either D. Potters own direct assertions , or evident consequences cleerely deduced frō them ? Especially seeing your proceeding in it is so consonant to this ill beginning , that it is in a manner wholly made up , not of D. Potters assertions , but your owne fictions obtruded on him . 54 Ad § 19. To the next Question , Cannot Generall Councels erre ? You pretend he answers § 19. They may erre damnably . Let the Reader see the place , and he shall finde , damnably is your addition . To the third demand , Must I consult ( about my difficulties ) with every particular person of the Catholique Church ? You answer for him , ( that which is most false ) that it seemes so by his words ; The whole militant Church , that is , all the members of it cannot possibly erre either in the whole faith , or any necessary Article of it . Which is very certaine , for should it doe so , it should be the Church no longer . But what sense is there that you should collect out of these words , that every member of the militant Church must be consulted with ? By like reason , if he had said that all men in the world cannot erre ; If he had said that God in his own person , or his Angels , could not erre in these matters , you might haue gathered from hence , that he laid a necessity upon men in doubt , to consult with Angels , or with God in his own person , or with all men in the world . Is it not evident to all sober men , that to make any man or men fit to be consulted with , besides the understanding of the matter , it is absolutely requisite that they may bee spoken with ? And is it not apparently impossible , that any man should speak with all the members of the Militant Church ? . Or if hee had spoken with them all , know that he had done so ? Nay does not D. Potter say as much in plain termes ? Nay more , doe not you take notice that hee does so in the very next words before these , where you say , he affirmes that the Catholique Church cannot be told of private injuries : unlesse you will perswade us there is a difference between the Catholique Church , and the whole Militant Church . For whereas you make him deny this of the Catholique Church united , and affirm it of the Militant Church dispersed into particulars ; The truth is , he speaks neither of united nor dispersed , but affirmes simply ( as appeares to your shame by your own quotations ) that the Catholique Church cannot bee told of private iniuries : and then , that the whole Militant Church cannot erre . But then besides , that the united Church cannot be consulted , and the dispersed may , what a wild imagination is it ? and what a strange injustice was it in you to father it upon him ? I beseech you Sir , to consider seriously how far blinde zeal to your superstition hath transported you beyond all bounds of honesty and discretion , & made you carelesse of speaking either truth or sense , so you speak against D. Potter ! 55 Again , you make him say , The Prelates of Gods Church meeting in a lawfull Councell may erre damnably : and from this collect , It remaines then for your necessary instruction you must repaire to every particular member of the Vniversall Church , spread over the face of the earth . And this is also Pergulapictoris , veri nihil , omnia ficta . The Antecedent false , ( not for the matter of it , but ) that D. Potter saies it ; And the consequence as far from it , as Gades from Gange ; and as coherent as a rope of sand . A generall Councell may erre ; therefore you must travell all the world over , and consult with every particular Christian ▪ As if there were nothing else to be consulted with : nay , as if according to the doctrine of Protestants , ( for so you must say , ) there were nothing to be consulted with , but only a Generall Councell , or all the world ! Haue you never heard that Protestants say , That men for their direction must consult with Scripture ? Nay , doth not D. Potter say it often in this very Book which you are confuting ? Nay more , in this very page out of which you take this peece of your Cento , A Generall Councell may erre damnably ? are there not these plain words , In searches of Truth , the Scripture ? With what conscience then or modesty can you impose upon him this unreasonable consequence , & yet pretend that your whole discourse , is either his own direct assertion , or evident consequences , cleerely deduc'd from them ? You adde , that yet he teaches ( as if he contradicted himselfe ) that the promises of God made to the Church for his assistance , are not intended to particular persons , but only to the Catholique Church : which sure agrees very well with any thing said by D. Potter . If it be repugnant to what you said for him falsely , what is that to him ? 56 Neither yet is this to drive any man to desperation : unlesse it be such a one , as hath such a strong affection to this word , Church , that he will not goe to heaven , unlesse he hath a Church to lead him thither . For what though a Councell may erre , and the whole Church cannot be consulted with , yet this is not to send you on the Fooles Pilgrimage for faith , and bid you goe and conferre with every Christian soul , man and woman , by Sea and by Land , close prisoner , or at liberty , as you dilate the matter : But to tell you very briefly , that Vniversall Tradition directs you to the word of God , and the word of God directs you to Heaven . And therefore here is no cause of desperatiō , no cause for you to be so vain , and tragicall , as here you would seeeme . Yet upon supposall ( you say ) of this miraculous pilgrimage for faith , before I have the faith of Miracles , how shall I proceed at our meeting ? Or how shall I know the man on whom I may securely rely ? And hereunto , you frame this answere for the Doctor ; Procure to know whether he believe all Fundamentall points of faith : Whereas in all the Doctors book , there is no such answer to any such question , or any like it . Neither doe you as your custome is , note any page where it may be found ; which makes mee suspect , that sure you have some priuate licence to use Heretiques ( as you call them ) at your pleasure , and make them answer any thing to anything . 57 Wherein I am yet more confirmed by the answer you put in his mouth to your next demand , How shall I know whether he hold all Fundamentall points or no ? For whereas hereunto D. Potter hauing given one Answer fully satisfactory to it , which is , If he truly believe the undoubted bookes of Canonicall Script●re , he cannot but believe all Fundamentalls ; and another which is but somethings towards a full satisfaction of it , That the Creed containes all the fundamentalls of simple Belief : you take no notice of the former , and pervert the latter , and make him say , The Creed containes all fundamentalls of faith . Whereas you know , and within sixe or seven lines after this confesse , that he never pretended it to contain all simply , but all of one sort , all necessary points of simple belief . Which assertion because he modestly delivers as very probable ( being willing to conclude rather lesse then more then his reasons require , ) hereupon you take occasion to aske : Shall I hazard my soul on probabilities , or even wagers ! As if whatsoever is but probable , though in the highest degree of probability , were as likely to be false as true ! Or because it is but Morally , not Mathematically certain that there was such a Woman as Q. Elizabeth , such a man as H. the 8. that is in the highest degree probable , therefore it were an even wager there were none such ! By this reason , seeing the truth of your whole Religion depends finally upon Prudentiall motives , which you doe but pretend to be very credible , it will be an even wager that your Religion is false . And by the same reason , or rather infinitely greater , seeing it is impossible for any man ( according to the grounds of your Religion ) to know himselfe , much lesse another to be a true Pope , or a true Priest ; nay to have a Morall certainty of it , because these things are obnoxious to innumerable secret and undiscernable nullities , it will be an even wager , nay ( if we proportion things indifferently , ) a hundred to one , that every Consecration and Absolution of yours is void , & that whensoever you adore the Host , you and your Assistants commit Idolatry : That there is a nullity in any Decree that a Pope shall make , or any Decree of a Councell which he shall confirme : Particularly it will be at least an even wager , that all the Decrees of the Councell of Trent are void , because it is at most but very probable that the Pope which confirmed them was true Pope . If you mistake these inferences , then confesse you have injur'd D. Potter in this also , that you have confounded and made all one , Probabilities , and even wagers . Whereas every ordinary Gamester can informe you , that though it be a thousand to one that such a thing will happen , yet it is not sure , but very probable . 58 To make the measure of your injustice yet fuller , you demand , If the Creed containes only points of simple belief , how shall you know what points of belief are necessary which direct our practise ? D. Potter would have answered you in our Saviours words , search the Scriptures . But you have a great minde it seemes to be a despairing , and therefore having propos'd your Question , will not suffer him to give you Answer , but shut your eares and tell him , still he chalkes out new paths for desperation . 59 In the rest of your interlude , I cannot but commend one thing in you , that you keep a decorum , and observe very well the Rule given you by the great Master of your Art , — Servetur adimum Qualis ab incepto processerat & sibi constet : One vein of scurrility and dishonesty runs clean through it , from the begining to the end . Your next demand then is , Are all the Articles of the Creed for their nature and matter Fundamentall ? and the Answer , I cannot say so . Which Answer ( though it be true ) D. Potter no where gives it , neither hath he occasion , but you make it for him , to bring in another question ; and that is , How then shall I know , which in particular be , and which be not Fundamentall ? D. Potter would have answered , It is a vain question : believe all , and you shall be sure to believe all that is Fundamentall . 60 But what saies now his prevaricating Proxy ? What does he make him say ? This which followes : Read my answer to a late Popish Pamphlet , intituled Charity Mistaken : There you shall finde , that Fundamentall doctrines , are such Catholique verities , as principally and essentially pertain to the faith , such as properly constitute a Church , and are necessary in ordinary course , to be distinctly believed by every Christian that will be saved . They are those Grand and Capitall Doctrines which make up our Faith , that is , the common faith , which is alike pretious in all ; being one and the same , in the highest Apostle , and the meanest believer , which the Apostle elsewhere calls the first Principles of the Oracles of God , and the forme of sound words . 61 But in earnest , Good Sir , doth the Doctor in these places by you quoted , make to this question this same sottish answer ? Or doe you think that against an Heretique nothing is unlawfull ? Certainly if he doth answer thus , I will make bold to say he is a very foole . But if he does not , ( as indeed he does not ) then : — But I forbeare you , and beseech the Reader to consult the places of D. Potters book ; and there he shall find , that in the former halfe of these ( as you call them ) varied words and phrases , he declared only what he meant by the word Fundamentall , which was needfull to prevent mistakes , and cavilling about the meaning of the word , which is metaphoricall , and therefore ambiguous ; and that the latter halfe of them , are severall places of Scripture imployed by D. Potter , to shew that his distinction of Fundamentall and not Fundamentall hath expresse ground in it . Nay of these two places , very pertinent unto two very good purposes , you have exceeding fairely patcht together a most ridiculous answer , to a question that D. Potter never dream't of . But the words , you will say , are in D. Potters Book , though in divers places , and to other purposes . Very true : And so the words of Ausonius his obscene Fescennine , are taken out of Virgil , yet Virgil surely was not the Author of this Poem . Besides , in D. Potters book , there are these words , Dread Soveraigne , amongst the many excellent vertues which have made your Majesties person so deare unto God , &c. And why now may you not say as well , that in these he made Answer to your former question , what points of the Creed were , and what were not Fundamentalls ? 62 But unlesse this question may be answered , his doctrine you say serves only , either to make men despaire , or else to have recourse to these whom we call Papists . It seemes a little thing will make you despaire , if you be so sullen as to doe so , because men will not trouble themselves to satisfy your curious questions . And I pray be not offended with me for so esteeming it , because as before I told you , if you will believe all the points of the Creed , you cannot choose but believe all the points of it that are fundamentall , though you be ignorant which are so , and which are not so . Now I believe your desire to know which are Fundamentalls , proceeds only from a desire to be assur'd that you doe believe them ; which seeing you may be assured of , without knowing which they be , what can it be but curiosity to desire to know it ? Neither may you think to mend your selfe herein one whit by having recourse to them whom we call Papists ; for they are as farre to seek as wee in this point , which of the Articles of the Creed are , for their nature and matter , fundamentall , and which are not . Particularly , you will scarce meet with any amongst their Doctors , so adventurous , as to tell you for a certain , whether or no the conception of Christ by the Holy Ghost , his being born of a Virgin , his Buriall , his descent into Hell , and the Communion of Saints , be points of their own nature and matter fundamentall . Such I mean , as without the distinct and explicite knowledge of them no man can be saved . 63 But you will say , at least they give this certain rule , that all points defined by Christs visible Church , belong to the foundation of faith , in such sense , as to deny any such , cannot stand with Salvation . So also Protestants give you this more certain rule , That whosoever believes heartily those books of Scripture , which all the Christian Churches in the world acknowledge to be Canonicall , and submits himselfe indeed to this , as to the rule of his belief , must of necessity believe all things fundamentall , and if he live according to his faith , cannot fail of Salvation . But besides , what certainty have you , that that rule of Papists is so certain ? By the visible Church it is plain , they mean only their own : and why their own only should be the Visible Church , I doe not understand : and as little , why all points defined by this Church should belong to the foundation of faith . These things you had need see well and substantially proved , before you rely upon them , otherwise you expose your selfe to danger of imbracing damnable errors instead of Fundamentall truth's . But you will say D. Potter himselfe acknowledges , that we doe not erre in Fundamentalls . If he did so , yet me thinkes you have no reason to rest upon his acknowledgement with any security , whom you condemne of errour in many other matters . Perhaps excesse of Charity to your persons , may make him censure your errors more favourably then he should doe . But the truth is , and so I have often told you , though the Doctor hope that your errors are not so unpardonably destructive , but that some men , who ignorantly hold them may be saved , yet in themselves , he professes and proclaimes them damnable , and such as he feares , will be certainly destructive to such as you are , that is , to all those , who have eyes to see and will not see them . 64 Ad § . 20. 21. 22. 23. In the Remainder of this Chapter , you promise to answer D. Potters Arguments , against that which you said before . But presently forgetting your selfe , in stead of answering his Arguments , you fall a confuting his Answers to your own . The arguments objected by you which here you vindicate , were two . 1. The Scripture is not so much as mentioned in the Creed , therefore the Creed containes not all things necessary to be believed . 2. Baptisme is not contained in the Creed , therefore not all things necessary . To both which Arguments my Answer shortly is this , that they prove something , but it is that which no man here denies . For D. Potter ( as you have also confessed ) never said , not undertook to shew , that the Apostles intended to comprize in the Creed , all points absolutely , which we are bound to believe , or after sufficient proposall , not to disbelieve ; which yet here and every where you are obtruding upon him : But only that they purposed to comprize in it , all such doctrines purely speculative , all such matters of simple belief , as are in ordinary course , necessary to be distinctly and explicitly believed by all men . Neither of these objections doe any way infringe or impeach the truth of this Assertion . Not the first , because according to your own doctrine , all men are not bound to know explicitely what books of Scripture are Canonicall . Nor the second , because Baptisme is not a matter of Faith , but practise : not so much to be believed , as to be given , and received . And against these Answers , whether you have brought any considerable new matter , let the indifferent Reader judge . As for the other things , which D. Potter rather glanceth at , then buil●s upon , in answering these objections , as the Creed's being collected out of Scripture , and supposing the Authority of it , which Gregory of Valentia in the place above cited , seemes to me to confesse , to have been the Iudgement of the Ancient Fathers : and the Nicene Creed's intimating the authority of Canonicall Scripture , and making mention of Baptisme : These things were said ex abundanti ; and therefore I conceive it superfluous to examine your exceptions against them . Prove that D. Potter did affirme that the Creed containes all things necessary to be believed of all sorts , and then these objections will be pertinent , and deserve an answer . Or produce some point of simple belief , necessary to be explicitly believed , which is not contained either in termes , or by consequence in the Creed , and then I will either answer your Reasons , or confesse I cannot . But all this while you doe but trifle , and are so farre from hitting the marke , that you rove quite beside the But. 65 Ad § . 23. 24. 25. Potter●emands ●emands , How it can be necessary for any Christian to have more in his Creed then the Apostles had , and the Church of their times ? You Answer That he trifles , not distinguishing between the Apostles belief , and that abridgement of some Articles of faith , which we call the Apostles Creed . I reply , that it is you which trifle , affectedly confounding ( what D. Potter hath plainly distinguished ) the Apostles belief of the whole Religion of Christ , as it comprehends both what we are to doe , and what we are to believe , with their belief of that part of it , which containes not duties of obedience , but only the necessary Articles of si●ple ●aith . Now though the Apostles Beleife be , in the former sense , a larger thing then that which we call the Apostles Creed : yet in the latter sense of the word , the Creed ( I say ) is a full comprehension of their belief , which you your selfe have formerly confessed , though somewhat fearfully , and inconstantly : and here again unwillingnesse to speak the truth , makes you speak that which is hardly sense , and call it an abridgement of some Articles of Faith. For I demand , these some Articles which you speak of , which are they ? Those that are out of the Creed , or those that are in it ? Those that are in it , it comprehends at large , and therefore it is not an abridgement of them : Those that are out of it , it comprehends not at all , and therefore it is not an abridgement of them . If you would call it now an abridgement of the Faith , this would be sense , and signify thus much , That all the necessary Articles of the Christian faith are compriz'd in it . For this is the proper duty of abridgements , to leave out nothing necessary , and to take in nothing unnecessary . 66 Moreover , in answer to this demand you tell us , that the Doctor beggs the Question , supposing that the Apostles believed no more then is contained in their Creed . I Answer , He supposes no such matter ; but only that they knew no more necessary Articles of simple belief , then what are contained in their Creed . So that here you abuse D. Potter and your Reader , by taking sophistically without limitation , that which is delivered with limitation . 67 But this demand of D. Potters , was equivalent to a Negation , and intended for one : How can it be necessary for any Christian , to have more in his Creed , then the Apostles had ? All one with this , It cannot be necessary &c. And this negation of his , he inforces with many arguments , which he proposes by way of interrogation , thus . May the Church of after Ages make the narrow way to heaven , narrower then our Saviour left it ? Shall it bee a fault to straiten and encumber the Kings high way with publique nuisances ; and is it lawfull by adding new Articles to the faith , to retrench any thing from the Latitude of the King of Heavens high way to eternall happinesse ? The yoake of Christ , which he said was easy , may it be justly made heavier by the Governors of the Church in after Ages ? The Apostles professe they revealed to the Church the whole Counsell of God , keeping back nothing needfull for our Salvation . What tyranny then to impose any new unnecessary matters on the faith of Christians , especially ( as the late Popes have done ) under the high commanding forme , Qui non crediderit , damnabitur ? If this may be done , why then did our Savlour reprehend the Pharises so sharpely , for binding heavy burdens , and laying them on mens shoulders ? And why did he teach them , that in vain they worshipped God , teaching for doctrines mens Traditions ? And why did the Apostles call it tempting of God , to lay those things upon the necks of Christians , that were not necessary ? 68 All which interrogations seeme to me to containe so many plain and convincing Arguments of the premised Assertion ; to all which ( one excepted , ) according to the advise of the best Masters of Rhetorique in such Cases , you have answered very discreetly ; by saying O. But when you write againe , I pray take notice of them : and if you can devise no faire , and satisfying answer to them , then be so ingenuous as to grant the Conclusion , That no more can be necessary for Christians to beleeve now , then was in the Apostles time . A conclusion of great importance , for the decision of many Controversies , & the disburdening of the faith of Christ from many incumbrances . 69 As for that one , which you thought you could fasten upon , grounded on the 20. Act. 27. let me tell you plainly , that by your Answering this , you have shewed plainly that it was wisely done of you to decline the rest . You tell D. Potter , That needfull for salvation is his glosse , which perhaps you intended for a peice of an Answer . But good Sir , consult the place , and you shall find , that there S. Paul himself saies that he kept back 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not any thing that was profitable : and I hope you will make no difficulty to grant , that whatsoever is needfull for salvation , is very profitable . 70 But then you say , This is no proofe unlesse he beg the Question , and suppose , that whatsoever the Apostles revealed to the Church is contained in the Creed . I Answer , it is not D. Potter that beggs the Question , but you that mistake it : which is not here in this particular place , Whether all points of simple Beleife necessary for the salvation of the Primitive Christians , were contained in the Apostles Symbole ? ( for that and the proofes , of it follow after , in the next , § . p. 223. of D. Potters Booke : ) but , whether any thing can be necessary for Christians to beleeve now , which was not so from the beginning ? D. Potter maintaines the negative ; and to make good his opinion , thus he argues , S. Paul declared to the Ephesians the whole Counsell of God touching their Salvation ; Therefore that which S. Paul did not declare , can be no part of the Counsell of God , and therefore not necessary . And againe : S. Paul kept back nothing from the Ephesians that was profitable ; Therefore he taught them all things necessary to salvation . Consider this I pray a little better , and then I hope you will acknowledge , that here was no Petitio principij , in D. Potter , but rather Ignoratio Elenchi , in you . 71 Neither is it materiall , that these words were particularly directed by S. Paul , to the Pastours of the Church : For ( to say nothing that the point here issuable , is not , Whom he taught , whether Priests or Laymen ? But how much he taught , and whether all things necessary ? ) it appeares plainly out of the Text , and I wonder you should read it so negligently as not to observe it , that though he speaks now to the Pastors , yet he speaks of what he taught not only them , but also the Laity as well as them . I have kept back nothing ( saies S. Paul ) that was profitable , but have shewed , and have taught you publikely , and from house to house ; Testifying ( I pray observe ) both to the Iewes , and also to the Greeks , Repentance towards God , & Faith towards our Lord Iesus Christ. And a little after , I know that yee all , among whom I have gone Preaching the Kingdome of God , shall see my face no more . Wherefore I take you to record this day , that I am innocent from the blood of all men ; for I have kept nothing back , but have shewed you all the Counsell of God. And againe , Remember that by the space of three yeares I ceased not to warne every one night and day with teares . Certainly though he did all these things to the Pastours among the rest , nay above the rest , yet without controversie , they whom he taught publikely , and from house to house : The Iewes and Greeks to whom he testified , ( 1. ) preach'd Faith and Repentance ▪ Those all , amongst whom he went preaching the kingdome of Cod : Those , Every one , whom for three yeares together he warned , were not Bishops and Pastors only . 72 Neither is this to say , that the Apostles taught Christians nothing but their Creed , nothing of the Sacraments , Comandements , &c. for that is not here the point to be proved : but only , that they taught them all things necessary , so that nothing can be necessary which they did not teach them . But how much of this they put into their Creed , whether all the necessary points of simple beleife , as we pretend , or only as you say , I know not what , is another Question , and which comes now to be farther examined . D. Potter , in confirmation of it , besides the authorities which you formerly shifted of , with so egregious tergiversation , urges fiue severall Arguments . 73 The sense of the first is this , If all the necessary points of simple beliefe be not compriz'd in the Creed , it can no way deserue the name of the Apostles Creed , as not being their Creed in any sense , but onely a part of it . To this you answer § 2 5. Vpon the same affected ambignity , &c. Answ. It is very true that their whole faith was of a larger extent , but that was not the Question : But whether all the points of simple beliefe which they taught as necessary to be explicitely believed , be not contained in it ? And if thus much at least of Christian Religion bee not comprized in it , I again desire you to inform me how it could be call'd the Apostles Creed ! 74 Foure other Reasons D. Potter urges to the same purpose , grounded upon the practise of the Ancient Church ; The last whereof you answer in the second part of your Book . But to the rest , drawne from the ancient Churches appointing her Infants to be instructed ( for matters of simple beliefe , ) only in the Creed : From her admitting Catechumens unto Baptisme : and of Strangers to her Communion upon their only profession of the Creed , you haue not , for ought I can perceaue , thought fit to make any kind of answer . 75 The difficulties of the 27. and last § of this Chapter , haue been satisfied . So that there remaines unexamined onely the 26. Section , wherein you exceed your selfe in sophistry : Especially in that trick of Cavillers , which is to answer objections by other objections ; an excellent way to make controversies endlesse ! D. Potter desires to be resolved , Why amongst many things of equall necessity to be believed , the Apostles should distinctly set down some in the Creed , and bee altogether silent of others ? In stead of resolving him in this difficulty , you put another to him , and that is , Why are some points not Fundamentall expressed in it , rather then other of the same quality ? Which demand is so far from satisfying the former doubt , that it makes it more intricate . For upon this ground it may be demanded , How was it possible that the Apostles should leave out any Articles simply necessary , and put in others not necessary , especially if their intention were ( as you say it was ) to deliver in it such Articles as were fittest for those times ? Vnlesse ( which were wondrous strange ) unnecessary Articles were fitter for those times , then necessary . But now to your Question , the Answer is obvious : These unnecessary things might be put in , because they were circumstances of the necessary , Pontius Pilate of Christs Passion , The third day of the Resurrectiō ; neither doth the adding of thē make the Creed ever a whit the lesse portable , the lesse fit to be understood , and remembred . And for the contrary reasons , other unnecessary things might bee left out . Besides , who sees not that the addition of some unnecessary circumstances is a thing that can hardly be avoided without affectation ! And therefore not so great a fault , nor deserving such a censure , as the omission of any thing essentiall to the work undertaken , and necessary to the end proposed in it . 76 You demand again ( as it is no hard matter to multiply demands , ) why our Saviours descent to Hell , and Buriall was expressed , and not his circumcision , his manifestation to the three Kings , and working of Miracles ? I answer : His Resurrection , Ascension , and sitting at the right hand of God , are very great Miracles , and they are expressed . Besides , S. Iohn . assures us , That the Miracles which Christ did , were done and written not for themselves that they might be believed , but for a farther end , that we might believe that Iesus was the Christ , and believing haue eternall life . He therefore that belieues this may be saved , though he haue no explicite and distinct faith of any Miracle that our Saviour did . His Circumcision & Manifestation to the Wise men ( for I know not upon what grounds you call them Kings ) are neither things simply necessary to be known , nor haue any neer relation to those that are so . As for his Descent into Hell , it may ( for ought you know ) be put in as a thing necessary of it selfe to be known . If you ask why more then his Circumcision , I refer you to the Apostles for an answer , who put that in , and left this out of their Creed : and yet sure , were not so forgetfull after the receiving of the holy Ghost , as to leaue out any prime & principall foundation of the faith , which are the very words of your own Gordonius Huntlaeus , Cont. 2. c. 10. num . 10. Likewise his Buriall was put in perhaps as necessary of it selfe to be known . But though it were not , yet hath it manifestly so neer relation to these that are necessary , ( his Passion & Resurrection , being the Consequent of the one , and the Antecedent of the other , ) that it is no marvell if for their sakes it was put in . For though I verily belieue that there is no necessary point of this nature , but what is in the Creed , yet I doe not affirme , because I cannot prove it , that there is nothing in the Creed but what is necessary . You demand thirdly , Why did they not expresse Scriptures , Sacraments , and all Fundamentall points of faith tending to practise , as well as those which rest in Beliefe ? I answer ; Because their purpose was to comprize in it only those necessary points which rest in beliefe : which appeares , because of practicall points there is not in it so much as one . 77 D. Potter subjoynes to what is said aboue , That as well , nay better they might have given no Article but that of the Church , and sent us to the Church for all the rest : For in setting down others besides that , and not all , they make us beleeve we have all , when we have not all . This consequence you deny : and neither give reason against it , nor satisfie his reason for it , which yet in my judgment is good and concluding . The Proposition to be proved is this , That if your Doctrine were trve , this short Creed , I beleeve the Roman Church to be infallible , would have been better , that is , more effectuall to keep the beleevers of it from Heresie , and in the true faith , then this Creed which now we have . A proposition so evident , that I cannot see how either you , or any of your Religion , or indeed any sensible man can from his heart deny it . Yet because you make shew of doing so , or else , which I rather hope , doe not rightly apprehend the force of the Reason , I will endeavour briefly to adde some light and strength to it , by comparing the effects of these severall supposed Creeds . 78 The former Creed therefore would certainly produce these effects in the beleevers of it : An impossibility of being in any formall Heresie : A necessity of being prepared in mind to come out of all Errourin faith , or materiall Heresie ; which certainly you will not denie , or if you doe , you pull downe the only pillar of your Church and Religion , and denie that which is in effect the only thing you labour to prove through your whole Book . 79 The latter Creed which now we have , is so un-effectuall for these good purposes , that you your self tell us of innumerable , grosse , damnable Heresies , that have been , are , and may be , whose contrary Truths are neither explicitly , nor by consequence comprehended in this Creed : So that no man by the beleife of this Creed without the former , can be possibly guarded from falling into them , and continuing obstinate in them . Nay , so far is this Creed from guarding them from these mischiefes , that it is more likely to ensnare thē into them , by seeming and yet not being a full comprehension of all necessary points of faith : which is apt ( as experience shewes , ) to mis-guide men into this pernitious errour , That believing the Creed , they believe all necessary points of faith , whereas indeed they doe not so . Now upon these grounds I thus conclude : That Creed which hath great commodities and no danger , would certainly be better then that which hath great danger , and wants many of these great commodities ; But the former short Creed propos'd by me , I believe the Roman Church to be infallible , ( if your doctrine be true , ) is of the former condition , and the latter , that is , the Apostles Creed , is of the latter , Therefore the former ( if your doctrine be true ) would without controversie be better then the latter . 80 But ( say you ) by this kind of arguing , one might inferre quite contrary . If the Apostles Creed contain all points necessary to Salvation , what need have wee of any Church to teach us ? And consequently what need of the Article of the Church ? To which I answer : that having compared your inference and D. Potter together , I cannot discover any shadow of resemblance between them , nor any shew of Reason , why the perfection of the Apostles Creed , should exclude a necessity of some body to deliver it . Much lesse why the whole Creed's containing all things necessary should make the beliefe of a part of it unnecessary . As well ( for ought I understand ) you might avouch this inference to be as good as D. Potters : The Apostles Creed contains all things necessary , therefore there is no need to believe in God. Neither does it follow so well as D. Potters argument followes , That if the Apostles Creed containes all things necessary , that all other Creeds and Catechismes , wherein are added divers other Particulars , are superfluous . For these other Particulars may be the duties of obedience , they may be profitable points of Doctrine , they may be good expositions of the Apostles Creed , and so not superfluous , and yet for all this the Creed may still contain all points of belief that are simply necessary . These therefore are poor consequences , but no more like D. Potters then an apple is like an oister . 81 But this consequence after you have sufficiently slighted and disgraced it , at length you promise us newes , and pretend to grant it . But what is that which you mean to grant ? That the Apostles did put no Article in their Creed but only that of the Church ? Or that , if they had done so , they had done better then now they have done ? This is D. Potters inference out of your Doctrine ; and truly if you should grant this , this were newes indeed ? Yes , say you I will grant it , but only thus farre , that Christ hath referred us only to his Church . Yea , but this is clean another thing , and no newes at all , that you should grant that , which you would fain have granted to you . So that your dealing with us is just as if a man should profer me a curtesy , and pretend that he would oblige himselfe by a note under his hand , to give me twenty pound , and in stead of it write , that I owe him forty , and desire me to subscribe to it and be thankfull . Of such favours as these it is very safe to be liberall . 82 You tell us afterward ( but how it comes in I know not ) that it were a childish argument , The Creed containes not all things necessary ; Ergo , It is not Profitable ! Or , the Church alone is sufficient to teach us by some convenient meanes : Ergo , She must teach us without meanes . These indeed are childish arguments , but for ought I see , you alone are the father of them : for in D. Potters book , I can neither meet with them , nor any like them . He indeed tels you , that if ( by an impossible supposition ) your Doctrine were true , another and a farre shorter Creed would have been more expedient : even this alone , I believe the Roman Church to be infallible . But why you should conclude , he makes this Creed unprofitable , because he saies another that might be conceived upon this false supposition , would be more profitable : or , that he laies a necessity upon the Church , of teaching without meanes : or , of not teaching this very Creed which now is taught ; these things are so subtill that I cannot apprehend them . To my understanding , by those words , And sent us to the Church for all the rest , he does rather manifestly imply , that the rest might be very well , not only profitable but necessary , and that the Church was to teach this by Creeds , or Catechismes , or Councells , or any other meanes which she should make choice of , for being Infallible she could not choose amisse . 83 Whereas therefore you say , If the Apostles had exprest no Article but that of the Catholique Church , she must haue taught us the other Articles in particular by Creeds , or other meanes : This is very true , but no way repugnant to the truth of this which followes , that the Apostles ( if your doctrine be true ) had done better service to the Church ; though they had never made this Creed of theirs which now we haue , if insteed thereof , they had commanded in plain termes that for mens perpetuall direction in the faith , this short Creed should be taught all men , I believe the Roman Church shall be for ever infallible . Yet you must not so mistake me , as if I meant , that they had done better not to haue taught the Church the substance of Christian Religion ; For then the Church not having learnt it of them , could not haue taught it us . This therefore I doe not say : but supposing they had written these Scriptures as they haue written , wherein all the Articles of their Creed are plainly delivered , and preached that Doctrine which they did preach , and done all otherthings as they have done , besides the composing their Symbole● I say , if your doctrine were true , they had done a work infinitely more beneficiall to the Church of Christ , if they had never compos'd their Symbole , which is but an imperfect comprehension of the necessary points of simple beliefe , and no distinctiue mark ( as a Symbole should be ) between those that are good Christians , and those that are not so ; But insteed thereof , had delivered this one Proposition , which would haue been certainly effectuall for all the aforesaid good intents and purposes , The Roman Church shall be forever infallible in all things , which she proposes as matters of faith . 84 Whereas you say , If we will belieue we haue all in the Creed whē we haue not all , it is not the Apostles fault but our own : I tell you plainly , if it be a fault , I know not whose it should be but theirs . For sure it can be no fault in me to follow such Guides whether ●oever they lead me ; Now I say , they haue led me into this perswasion , because they haue given me great reason to belieue it , and none to the contrary . The reason they haue given me to belieue it , is , because it is apparent and confest , they did propose to themselues in composing it , some good end or ends : As that Christians might haue a forme , by which ( for matter of faith ) they might professe themselues Catholiques , So Putean out of Th. Aquinas : That the faithfull might know , what the Christian people is to believe explicitely , So Vincent Filiucius : That being separated into divers parts of the world , they might preach the same thing : And that ▪ that might serve as a mark to distinguish true Christians from Infidels , So Cardinall Richlieu . Now for all these and for any other good intent , I say , it will be plainly uneffectuall , unlesse it contain at least all points of simple beliefe , which are in ordinary course , necessary to be explicitely known by all men . So that if it be fault in me to belieue this , it must be my fault to belieue the Apostles , wise and good men : which I cannot doe if I belieue not this . And therefore what Richardus de sancto Victore sayes of God himselfe , I make no scruple at all to apply to the Apostles , and to say , Si error est quod credo , à vobis deceptus sum : If it be an errour which I belieue , it is you , and my reverend esteem of you and your actions that hath led me into it . For as for your suspition , That we are led into this perswasion , out of a hope that we may the better maintain by it some opinions of our own , It is plainly uncharitable . I know no opinion I haue , which I would not as willingly forsake as keep , if I could see sufficient reason to enduce me to believe , that it is the will of God I should forsake it . Neither doe I know any opinion I hold against the Church of Rome , but I haue more evident grounds then this whereupon to build it . For let but these Truths bee granted : That the authority of the Scripture is independent on your Church , & dependent only in respect of us upon universall Tradition ; That Scripture is the only Rule of faith : That all things necessary to salvation are plainly delivered in Scripture : Let I say these most certain and divine Truths be laid for foundations , and let our superstructions bee consequent and coherent to them ; and I am confident Peace would be restored , and Truth maintained against you , though the Apostles Creed were not in the world . CHAP. V. That Luther , Calvin , their Associates , & all who began , or continue the separation from the externall Communion of the Roman Church , are guilty of the proper , and formall sinne of Schisme . THE Searcher of all Hearts , is witnesse with how unwilling minds , we Catholiques are drawen to fasten the denomination of Schismatiques , or Heretiques , on them , for whose soules , if they imployed their best blood , they judge that it could not be better spent ! If we rejoyce , that they are contistated at such titles , our joy riseth not from their trouble or griefe , but , as that of the Apostles did , from the fountaine of Charity , because they are cont●●stated to repentance ; that so after unpartiall examination , they finding themselves to be what we say , may by Gods holy grace , begin to dislike , what themselves are . For our part , we must remember that our obligation is , to keep within the meane , betwixt uncharitable bitternesse , and pernicious flattery , not yeelding to worldly respects , nor offending Christian Modesty , but uttering the substance of truth in so Charitable manner , that not so much we , as Truth , and Charity may seeme to speak , according to the wholesome advise of S. Gregory Nazianzen in these divine words : We doe not affect peace with a preiudice of the true doctrine , that so we may get a name of being gentle , and mild , and yet we seek to conserue peace , fighting in a lawfull manner , and containing our selves within our compasse , and the rule of Spirit . And of these things my iudgment is , and for my part I prescribe the same law to all that deale with soules , and treat of true doctrine , that neither they exasperate me●s minds by harshnesse , nor make them haughty or insolent , by submission ; but that in the cause of faith they behave themselves prudently , and advisedly , and doe not in either of these things exceed the meane . With whom āgreeth S. Leo saying : It behoveth us in such causes to be b most carefull , that without noise of contentions , both Charity be conserved , and Truth maintained . 2. For better Methode , we will handle these points in order . First we will set downe the nature , and essence , or as I may call it , the Quality of Schisme . In the second place , the greatnesse and grievousnesse , or ( so to tearme it ) the Quantity thereof . For the Nature , or Quality will tell us who may without injury be iudged Schismatiques : and by the greatnesse , or quantity , such as finde themselves guilty thereof , will remaine acquainted with the true state of their soule , and and whether they may conceive any hope of salvation or no. And because Schisme will be found to be a division from the Church , which could not happen , unlesse there were alwaies a visible Church ; we will , Thirdly prove , or rather take it as a point to be granted by all Christians , that in all ages there hath beene such a Visible Congregation of Faithfull People . Fourthly , we will demonstrate , that Luther , Calvin , and the rest , did separate themselves from the Communion of that alwaies visible Church of Christ , and therefore were guilty of Schisme . And fifthly we will make it evident , that the visible true Church of Christ , out of which Luther and his followers departed , was no other but the Roman Church , and consequently that both they , and all others who persist in the same division , are Schismatiques by reason of their separation from the Church of Rome . 3 For the first point touching the Nature , or Quality of Schisme : As the naturall perfection of man consists in his being the Image of God his Creator , by the powers of his soule ; so his supernaturall perfection is placed in fimilitude with God , as his last End and Felicity ; and by having the said spirituall faculties , his Vnderstanding and Will linked to him . His Vnderstanding is united to God by Faith ; his Will , by Charity . The former relies upon his infallible Truth : The latter carrieth us to his infinite Goodnesse . Faith hath a deadly opposite , Heresie . Contrary to the Vnion , or Vnity of Charity , is Separation and Division . Charity is twofold . As it respects God , his Opposite Vice is Hatred against God : as it uniteth us to our Neighbour , his contrary is Seperation or division of affections and will , from our Neighbour . Our Neighbour may be considered , either as one private person hath a single relation to another , or as all concur to make one Company or Congregation , which we call the Church ; and this is the most principall reference and Vnion of one man with another : because the chiefest Vnity is that of the Whole , to which the particular Vnity of Parts is subordinate . This Vnity , or Onenesse ( if so I may call it ) is effected by Charity , uniting all the members of the Church in one Mysticall Body ; contrary to which , is Schisme , from the Greeke word signifying Scissure , or Division . Wherefore vpon the whole matter , wee find that Schisme , as the Angellicall Doctor S. Thomas defines it , is ; A voluntary separation c from the Vnity of that Charity , whereby all the members of the Church are united . From hence he deduceth , that Schisme is a speciall and particular vice , distinct from Heresy , because they are opposite to two different Vertues : Heresy , to Faith : Schisme , to Charity . To which purpose hee fitly alleageth S. Hierome upon these words , ( Tit. 3. ) A man that is an Heretique after the first and second admonition avoide , saying : I conceive that there is this difference betwixt Schisme and Heresy , that Heresy involves some perverse assertion : Schisme for Episcopall dissention doth seperate men from the Church . The same doctrine is delivered by S. Austine in these words : Heretiques d and Schismatiques call their Congregations , Churches : but Heretiques corrupt the Faith by believing of God false things : but Schismatiques by wicked divisions breake from fraternall Charity , although they believe what we believe . Therefore the Heretique belongs not to the Church , because she loves God : nor the Schismatique , because she loves her Neighbour . And in another place he saith . It is wont to be demanded e How Schismatiques be distinguished from Heretiques : and this difference is found , that not a divers faith , but the divided Society of Communion doth make Schismatiques . It is then evident that Schisme is different from Heresie . Neverthelesse ( saith S. Thomas f as he who is deprived of faith must needs want Charity : so every Heretique is a Schismatique , but not conversively every Schismatique is an Heretique ; though because want of Charity disposes and makes way to the destruction of faith ( according to those words of the Apostle , Which ( a good conscience ) some casting off , have suffered shipwrack in their faith ) Schisme speedily degenerates to Heresy , as S. Hierome after the rebearsed words teacheth , saying : Though Schisme in the beginning may in some sort be understood different from Heresy ; yet there is no Schisme which doth not faigne some heresy to it selfe , that so it may seeme to have departed from the Church upon good reason . Neverthelesse when Schisme proceeds originally from Heresy , Heresy as being in that case the predominant quality in these two peccant humours , giveth the denomination of an Heretique ; as on the other side we are wont , especially in the beginning , or for a while , to call Schismatiques , those men who first began with only Schisme , though in processe of time they fell into some Heresy , and by that meanes are indeed both Schismatiques and Heretiques . 4. The reason why both Heresy and Schisme are repugnant to the being of a good Catholique , is Because the Catholique , or Vniversall Church signifies One Congregation , or Company of faithfull people , and therefore implies not only Faith , to make them Faithfull believers , but also Communion , or Common Vnion , to make them One in Charity , which excludes Seperation , and Division : and therefore in the Apostles Creed , Communion of Saints is immediatly joyned to the Catholique Church . 5. From this definition of Schisme may be inferred , that the guilt thereof is contracted , not only by division from the Vniversall Church ; but also , by a Separation from a particular Church or Diocesse which agrees with the Vniversall . In this manner Meletius was a Schismatique , but not an Heretique , because as we read in S. Epiphanius , h he was of the right Faith : for his faith was not altered at any time from the holy Catholique Church &c. He made a Sect , but departed not from Faith. Yet because he made to himselfe a particular Congregation against S. Peter Archbishop of Alexandria his lawfull superiour , and by that meanes brought in a division in that particular Church , he was a Schismatique . And it is well worth the noting , that the Meletians building new Churches put this title upon them , The Church of Martyrs : and upon the antient Churches of those vvho succeeded Peter , was inscribed , The Catholique Church . For so it is . A new Sect must have a new name , which though it be never so gay and specious , as the Church of Martyrs : the Reformed Church &c. yet the Novelty sheweth that it is not the Catholique , nor a true Church . And that Schisme may be committed by division from a particular Church , wee read in Optatus Milevitanus i these remarkeable words , ( which doe well declare who bee schismatiques ) brought by him to prove that not c●cilianus but parmenianas was a Schismatique : For Caecilianus went not out from Majorinus thy Grand-Father ( he meanes his next predeces●our but one , in the Bishop●icke , ) but Majorinus from Caecilianus : neither did Caecilianus depart from the Chaire of Peter , or of Cyprian ( who was but a particular Bishop , ) but Majorinus , in whose Chaire thou sittest which had no beginning before Majorinus himselfe . Seeing it is manifestly knowne that these things were so done , it evidently appeareth , that you are heires both of Traditors ( that is , of those who delivered up the holy Bible to be burned ) and of Schismatiques . And it seemeth that this kinde of Schisme must principally be admitted by Protestants , who acknowledge no one visible Head of the whole Church , but hold that every particular Diocesse , Church , or Countrey is governed by it selfe independently of any one Person , or Generall Councell , to which all Christians have obligation to submit their judgements , and wills . 6. As for the grievousnesse or quantity of Schisme ( which was the second point proposed ) S. Thomas teacheth , that amongst sinnes against our Neighbour , Schisme l is the most grievous ; because it is against the spirituall good of the multitude , or Community . And therefore as in a Kingdome or Common-wealth , there is as great difference betweene the crime of rebellion or sedition , and debates among priuate men , as there is inequality betwixt one man , and a whole kingdome ; so in the Church , Schisme is as much more grievous then sedition in a Kingdome , as the spirituall good of soules surpasseth the civill and politicall weale . And S. Thomas addes further , and they loose the spirituall Power of Iurisdiction ; and if they goe about to absolve from sinnes , or to excommunicate , their actions are invalid ; which he proves out of the Canon Novatianus . Causa 7. quest . 1. which saith : He that keepeth neither the Vnity of spirit , nor the peace of agreement , and separates himselfe from the bond of the Church , and the Colleage of Priests , can neither have the Power , nor dignity of a Bishop . The Power also of Order ( for example to consecrate the Eucharist , to ordaine Priests &c. ) they cannot lawfully excercise . 7. In the judgement of the holy Fathers , Schisme is a most grievous offence . S. Chrisostome m compares these Schismaticall dividers of Christs mysticall body , to those who sacrilegiously pietced his naturall body , saying : Nothing doth so much incense God , as that the Church should be divided . Although we should do innumerable good works , if we divide the full Ecclesiastical . Congregation , we shall be punished no lesse then they who tore his ( naturall ) body . For that was done to the gaine of the whole world , although not with that intention : but this hath no profit at all , but there ariseth from it most great harme . These things are spoken , not only to those who beare office , but also to those who are governed by them . Behold how neither a morall good life ( which conceit deceiveth many ) nor authority of Magistrates , nor any necessity of Obeying Superiours can excuse Schisme from being a most haynous offence . Optatus Milevitanus o cals Schisme , Inge●s stagitium : a huge crime . And speaking to the Donatists , saith ; that Schisme is evill in the highest degree , even you are not able to deny . No lesse patheticall is S. Augustine upon this subject . He reckons Schismatiques amongst Pagans , Heretiques , and Iewes , saying : Religion is to be sought , neither in the con●usion of Pagans , nor p in the filth of Heretiques , nor in the languishing of Schismatiques , nor in the Age of the Iewes ; but amongst those alone who are called Christian Catholiques , or Orthodox , that is , lovers of Vnity in the whole body , and followers of truth . Nay he esteemes them worse then Infidels and Idolaters , saying : Those whom the Donatists q heale from the wound of Infidelity and Idolatry , they hurt more grievously with the wound of Schisme . Let there those men who are pleased untruely to call us Idolaters , reflect upon themselves , and consider , that this holy Father judgeth Schismatiques ( as they are ) to be worse then Idolaters , which they absurdly call us . And this he proveth by the example of Core , and Dathan , Abiron and other rebellious Schismatiques of the old Testament , who were convayed alive downe into Hell , and punished more openly then Idolaters . No doubt ( saith this holy Father ) but r that was committed most wickedly , which was punished most severaly . In another place he yoaketh Schisme with Heresy , saying upon the Eight Beatitude : Many s Heretiques , under the name of Christians , deceiving mens soules , doe suffer many such things ; but therefore they are excluded from this reward , because it is not only said , Happy are they who suffer persecution , but there is added , for Iustice. But where there is not sound faith , there cannot be justice . Neither can Schismatiques promise to themselves any part of this reward , because likewise where there is no Charity , there cannot be justice . And in another place , yet more effectually he saith : Being out of t the Church , and divided from the heape of Vnity , and the bond of Charity , thou shouldest be punished with eternall death , though thou shouldest he burned alive for the name of Christ. And in another place , he hath these words : If he heare not the Church let him be to u thee , as an Heathen or Publican ; which is more grievous then if he were smitten with the sword , consumed with flames , or cast to wild beasts . And else where : Out of the Catholique Church ( saith he ) one w may have Faith , Sacraments , Orders , and in summe , all things except Salvation . With S. Augustine , his Countreyman and second selfe in sympathy of spirit , S. Fulgentius agreeth , saying : Believe this x stedfastly without doubting , that every Heretique , or Schismatique , baptized in the name of the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy Ghost , if before the end of his life , he be not reconciled to the Catholique Church , what Almes soever he give , yea though he should shed his bloud for the name of Christ , he cannot obtaine Salvation . Marke againe how no morall honesty of life , no good deeds , no Martyrdome , can without repentance availe any schismatique for salvation . Let us also adde that D. Potter saith : Schisme is no lesse y damnable , then Heresy . 8. But ô you Holy , Learned , Zealous Fathers , and Doctours of Gods Church ; out of these premises , of the grievousnesse of schisme , and of the certain damnation which it bringeth ( if unrepented ) what conclusion draw you for the instruction of Christians ? S. Augustine maketh this wholesome inference . There is z no iust necessity to divide Vnity . S. Irenaeus concludeth : They cannot a make any so important reformation , as the evill of the Schisme is pernicious . S. Denis of Alexandria saith : Certainly b all things should rather be indured , then to consent to the division of the Church of God : those Martyrs being no lesse glorious , that expose themselves to hinder the dismembring of the Church ; then those that suffer rather then they will offer sacrifice to Idols . Would to God all those who divided themselves from that visible Church of Christ , which was upon earth when Luther appeared , would rightly consider of these things ! and th●s much of the second Point . 9 We have just and necessary occasion , eternally to blesse almighty God , who hath vouchsafed to make us members of the Catholique Roma● Church , from which while men fall , they precipitate themselves into so vast absurdities , or rather sacrilegious blasphemies , as is implyed in the doctrine of the totall deficiency of the visible Church , which yet is maintained by divers chief Protestants , as may at large be seen in Brerely , and others ; out of whom I will here name Iewell saying : The truth was unknown c at that time , and unheard of , when Martin Luther , and Vlderick Zuinglius first came unto the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell . Perkins saith : We say , that d before the daies of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares , an universall Apostacy overspread the whole face of the earth , and that our ( Protestant ) Church was not then visible to the world . Napper upon the Revelations teacheth , that from the yeare of e Christ three hundred and sixteen , the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne hath begun , raigning universally , and without any debatable contradiction , one thousand two hundred sixty yeares ( that is , till Luthers time : ) And that , from the yeare of f Christ three hundred and sixteen , God hath withdrawn his visible Church from open Assemblies , to the hearts of particular godly men &c. during the space of one thousand two hundred three score yeares : And that , the g Pope and Clergy have possessed the outward visible Church of Christians , even one thousand two hundred three score yeares . And that , the h true Church abode latent , and invisible . And Brocard i upon the Revelations , professeth to joyne in opinion with Napper . Fulke affirmeth , that in the k time of Boniface the third , which was the year 607. the Church was invisible , and fled into the wildernesse , there to remain a long season . Luther saith : Pri●● solus eram : At the first l I was alone . Iacob Hail●ronerus one of the Disputants for the Protestant Party , in the conference at Ratisbone , affirmeth m that the true Church was interrupted by Apostasy from the true Faith. Calvin saith : It is absurd in the very n beginning to breake one from another , after we have been forced to make a separation from the whole world . It were over-long to alleage the words of Ioannes Regius , Daniel Chamierus , Beza , Ochimus , Castalio , and others to the same purpose . The reason which cast them upon this wicked doctrine , was a desperate voluntary necessity : because they being resolved not to acknowl●dge the Roman Church to be Christs true Church , and yet being convinced by all manner of evidence , that for divers Ages before Luther there was no other Congregation of Christians , which could be the Church of Christ ; there was no remedy but to affirme , that upon earth Christ had no visible Church : which they would never have avouched , if they had known how to avoid the foresaid inconvenience ( as they apprehended it ) of submitting themselves to the Roman Church . 10 Against these exterminating spirits , D. Potter , and other more moderate Protestants , professe , that Christ alwaies had , and alwaies will have upon earth a visible Church : otherwise ( saith he ) our Lords o promise of her stable p edification should be of no value . And in another place , having affirmed that Protestants have not left the Church of Rome , but her corruptions , and acknowledging her still to be a member of Christs body , he seeketh to cleere himselfe and others from Schisme , because ( saith he ) the property q of Schisme is ( witnesse the Donatists and Luci●erian● ) to cut off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of salvation , the Church from which it separates . And if any Zelots amongst us have proceeded to heavier ce●sures , their zeale may be excused , but their Charity and wisdome cannot be iustified . And elsewhere he acknowledgeth , that the Roman Church hath those main , and r essentiall truths , which give her the name and essence of a Church . 11 It being therefore granted by D. Potter , and the chiefest and best learned English Protestants , that Christs visible Church cannot perish , it will be needlesse for me in this occasion to prove it . S. Augustine doubted not to say : The Prophets s spoke more obscurely of Christ , then of the Church : because , as I thinke , they did foresee in spirit , that men were to make parties against the Church , and that they were not to have so great strife concerning Christ : therefore that was more plainly foretold , and more openly prophecyed about which greater contentions were to rise , that it might turne to the condemnation of them ▪ who have see●e it , and yet gone forth . And in another place he saith : How doe we confide t to have received manifestly Christ himselfe from holy Scriptures , if we have not also manifestly received the Church from them ? And indeed to what congregation shall a man have recourse for the affaires of his soule , if upon earth there be no visible Church of Christ ? Besides , to imagine a company of men believing one thing in their heart , and with their mouth professing the contrary , ( as they must be supposed to doe ; for if they had professed what they believed , they would have become visible ) is to dream of a damned crew of dissembling Sycophants , but not to conceive a right notion of the Church of Christ our Lord. And therefore S. Augustine saith : We cannot be saved , unlesse labouring also for the u salvation of others , we professe with our mouthes , the same faith which we bear in our hearts . And if any man hold it lawfull to dissemble , and deny matters of faith , we cannor be assured , but that they actually dissemble , and hide Anabaptisme , Arianisme , yea Turcisme , and even Atheisme , or any other false beliefe , under the outward profession of Calvinisme . Doe not Protestants teach that preaching of the word , and administration of Sacraments ( which cannot but make a Church visible ) are inseparable notes of the true Church ? And therefore they must either grant a visible Church , or none at all . No wonder then if S. A●stine account this Heresy so grosse , that he saith against those who in his time defended the like errour : But this Church which w hath been of all Nations is no ●ore , she 〈◊〉 perished , so say they that are not in her . O impudent speech ! And afterward 〈…〉 , so detestable , so full of presumption and falshood , which is sust●ined with no truth , enlightned with no wisdome , seasoned with no falt , vaine , rash , beady , 〈…〉 &c. And Peradventure some x one may say , there are other sheep I know not where , with which I am not dequ●inted , yet God hath care of them . But he is too absurd in 〈◊〉 sense , that 〈◊〉 imagine such things . And these men doe not consider , that while they deny the perpe●uity of a visible Church , they destroy their own present Church , according to the argument which S. Augustine urged against the Donatists in these words : y If the Church were lost in Cyprians ( we may say in Gregories ) time , from whence did Donatus ( Luther ) appeare ? From what earth did he spring ? from what sea is he come ? From what heaven did he drop ? And in another place ; How can they ●●unt z to have any Church , if he have ceased ever since those times ? And all Divines by defining Schisme to be a division from the true Church , suppose , that there must be a known Church , from which it is possible for men to depart . But enough of this in these few words . 12 Let us now come to the fourth , and chiefest point , which was , to examine whether Luther , ●●lvin , and the rest did not depar● from the externall Communion of Christs visible Church , and by that sepa●ation became g●●lty of Schisme . And that they are properly Schismatiques cleerely followeth from the grounds which we have laid ; concerning the nature of Schisme , which 〈◊〉 in leaving the externall Communion of the visible Church of Christ our Lord : and it is cleere by evidence of fact , that Luther and his followers forsooke the Communion of that Anci●nt Church ▪ For they did not so much as pretend to joyne with any Congregation , which had a being before their time ▪ for they would needs conceive that no visible company was free from errours in doctrine , and corruption in practise : And therefore they opposed the doctrine ; they withdrew their obedience from th● Prel●tes ; they left participation in Sacraments ; they ch●nged the Liturgy of publique service of whatsoever Church then extant . And these things they pre●●nded to doe out of a perswasion , that they were bound ( forsooth ) in conscience so to doe , unlesse they would particip●te with ●rrors , corruptions , and superstitions . We dare not ( saith D. Potter ) communicate a with Rome either in her publique Lit●rgy , which is manifestly polluted with grosse superstition &c. or in those corrupt and ungrounded opinions , which she hath added to the Faith of Catholiques . But now 〈◊〉 D. Potter tell me with what visible Church extant before Luther , he would have adventured to communicate in her publique Liturgy and Doctrine , since he durst not communicate with Rome ▪ He will not be able to assigne any , even with any little colour of common sense . If then they departed from all visible Communities professing Christ , it followeth that they also left the Communion of the true visible Church , whichsoever it was , whether that of Rome , or any other ; of which Point I doe not for the present dispute . Yea this the Lutherans doe not only acknowledge , but prove , and brag of . If ( faith a learned Lutheran ) there had 〈◊〉 right b ●elievers which went before Luther in his office , there had then been no need of a Lutheran Reformation . Another affirmeth it to be ridiculous , to think that in the time c before Luther ; any had the purity of Doctrine ; and that Luther should receive it from them , and not they from Luther . Another speaketh roundly , and saith it is impudency to say , that many learned men d in Germany before Luther , did hold the Doctrine of the Gospell . And I adde : That farre greater impudency , it were to affirme , that Germany did not agree with the rest of Europe , and other Christian Catholique Nations , and consequently , that it is the greatest impudency to deny , that he departed from the Communion of the visible Catholique Church , spread over the whole world , We have heard Calvin saying of Protestants in generall ; We were , even , forced e to make a separation from the whole world . And , Luther of himselfe in particular : In the beginning f I was alone . Ergo ( say I , by your good leave ) you were at least a Schismatique , divided from the Ancient , Church , and a member of no new Church . For no sole man can constitute a Church ; and though he could ; yet such a Church could not be , that glorious company , of whose number , greatnesse , and amplitude , so much hath been spoken both in the old Testament , and in the New. 13 D. Potter endeavours to avoid this evident Argument by divers evasions ; but by the confutation , thereof I will ( with Gods holy assistance ) take occasion , even out of his own Answers and grounds , to bring unanswerable reasons to convince them of Schisme . 14 His chief Answer is : That they have not left the Church , but her Corruption . 15 I reply . This answer may be given either by those furious people , who teach that those abuses , and corruptions in the Church were so enormous , that they could not stand with the nature , or being of a true Church of Christ : Or else by those other more calme Protestants , who affirme , that those errors did not destroy the being , but only deforme the beauty of the Church . Against both these sorts of men . I may fitly use that unanswerable Dilemma , which S. Augustine brings against the Donatists in these concluding words : Tell me whether the g Church at that time when you say she entertained those who were guilty of all crimes , by the contagion of those sinfull persons ▪ perished , or perished not ? Answere ; whether the Church perished , or perished not ? Make choice of what you think . If then she perished , what Church brought forth D●natus ? ( we may say Luther . ) But if she could not perish ; because so many were incorporated into her ( without Baptisme ( that is , without a second baptisme , or rebaptization , and I may say , without Luthers Reformation ) answer me I pray you , what madnesse did moue the Sect of Don●tus to separate themsel●es from her upon pretence to avoid the Communion of ●ad men . I beseech the Reader to ponder every one of S. Augustines words ; and to consider whether any thing could ha●e been spoken more directly against Luther , and his followers of what sort soever . 16 And now to answer more in particular ; I say to those who reach , that the visible Church of Christ perished for many Ages , that I can easily afford them the cur●esie , to free them from meer Schisme : but all men touched with any spark of zeal to vindicate the wisedome , and Goodnesse of our Saviour from blasphemous injurie , cannot choose but believe and proclaim them to be superlative Arch-heretiques . Neverthelesse , if they will needs haue the honour of Singularity , and desire to be both formall Heretiques , and properly Schismatiques , I will tell them , that while they dream of an invisible Church of men , which agree with them in Faith , they will upon due reflection find themselves to be Schismatiques , from those corporeall Angels , or invisible men ▪ because they held externall Communion with the visible Church of those times , the outward Communion of which visible Church these modern hot-spurs forsaking , were thereby divided from the outward Communion of their hidden Brethren , and so are Separatists from the externall Communion of them , with whom they agree in faith , which is Schisme in the most formall , and proper signification thereof . Moreover according to D. Potter , these boysterous Creatures are properly Schismariques . For , the reason why he thinks himselfe , and such as he is , to be cleared from Schisme , notwithstanding their division from the Roman Church , is because ( according to his Divinity ) the property of h Schisme , is ( witnesse the Donatists and Luciferians ) to cut off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of Salvation , the Church from which it separates : But those Protestants of whom we now speak , cut off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of Salvation , the Church from which they separated themselues ; and they doe it directly as the Donatists ( in whom you exemplify ) did , by affirming that the true Church had perished : and therefore they cannot bee cleared from Schisme , if you may be their Iudge . Consider , I pray you , how many prime Protestants both domesticall and forraign , you haue at one blow struck off from hope of Salvation , and condemned to the lowest pit , for the grievous sinne of Schisme . And withall it imports you to consider , tha● you also involve your selfe , and other moderate Protestants in the selfe , same crime and punishment , while you communicate with those , who , according to your own principles , are properly , & formally Schismatiques . For if you held your selfe obliged under pain of damnation to forsake the Communion of the Roman Church , by reason of her Errors and Corr●ptions , which yet you confesse were not fundamentall ; shall it not be much more damnable for you , to live in Communion and Confraternity , with those who defend an errour of the fayling of the Church , which in the Donatists you confesse i to haue been properly hereticall against the Article of our Creed ; I believe the Church ? And I desire the Reader , here to apply an authority of S. Cyprian ( epist. 76. ) which he shall finde alleaged in the next number . And this may suffice for confutation of the aforesaid Answer , as it might haue relation to the rigid Calvinists . 17 For Confutation of these Protestants , who hold that the Church of Christ had alwaies a being , and cannot erre in points fundamentall , and yet teach , that she may erre in matters of lesse moment , wherein if they forsake her , they would be accounted not to leave the Church , but onely her corruptions ; I must say , that they change the state of our present Question , not distinguishing between internall Faith , and externall Communion , nor between Schisme , and Heresie . This I demonstrate out of D. Potter himselfe ; who in expresse words teacheth , that the promises which our Lord hath made k unto his Church for his assistance , are intended not to any particular Persons or Churches , but only to the Church Catholique : and they are to be extended not to every parcel , or particularity of truth , but only to points of Faith , or fundamentall . And afterwards speaking of the Vniversall Church , he s●●th : It 's comfort l enough for the Church , that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capital dangers , and conserue her on earth against all enemies ; but shee may not hope to triumph over all sinne and errour , till she be in heaven . Out of which words I observe , that , according to D. Potter , the selfe same Church , which is the Vniversall Church , remaining the universall true Church of Christ , may fall into errors and corruptions : from whence it clearly followeth that it is impossible to leave the Externall communion of the Church so corrupted , and retain externall communion with the Catholique Church ; since the Church Catholique , and the Church so corrupted is the selfe same one Church , or company of men . And the contrary imagination talkes in a dream , as if the errours and infections of the Catholique Church were not inherent in her , but were separate from her , like to Accidents , without any Subject , or rather indeed , as if they were not Accidents , but Hypostases , or Persons subsisting by themselues . For men cannot be said to liue , in , or out of the Communion of any dead creature , but with Persons , endued with life and reason ; and much lesse can men be said to live in the Communion of Accidents , as errors and corruptions are , and therefore it is an absurd thing to affirm , that Protestants divided themselues from the corruptions of the Church , but not from the Church her selfe , seeing the corruptions of the Church were inherent in the Church . All this is made more cleer , if we consider , that when Luther appeared , there were not two distinct visible true Catholique Churches , holding contrary Doctrines , and divided in externall Communion ; one of the which two Churches did triumph over all errour , and corruption in doctrine and practise ; but the other was stained with both . For to faign this diversity of two Churches cannot stand with record of histories , which are silent of any such matter . It is against D. Potters own grounds , that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall , which were not true , if you will imagine a certain visible Catholique Church free from errour even in points not fundamentall . It contradicteth the words in which he said , the Church may not hope to triumph over all errour , till she be in heaven , It evacuateth the brag of Protestants , that Luther reformed the whole Church : and lastly it maketh Luther a Schismatique , for leaving the Communion of all visible Churches , seeing ( upon this supposition ) there was a visible Church of Christ free from all corruption , which therefore could not be forsaken without just imputation of Schisme . We must therefore truly affirme , that since there was but one visible Church of Christ , which was truly Catholique , and yet was ( according to Protestants ) stained with corruption ; when Luther left the externall Communion of that corrupted Church , he could not remain in the Communion of the Catholique Church , no more then it is possible to keep company with D. Christopher Potter , and not keep company with the Provost of Queenes Colledge in Oxford , if D. Potter and the Provost be one , and the selfe same man : For so one should be , and not be with him at the same time . This very argument drawne from the Vnity of God's Church , S. Cyprian urgeth to convince , that Novatianus was cut off from the Church in these words : The Church is m One , which being One cannot be both within and without . If she ●e with Novatianus , she was not with Cornelius ; But if she were with Cornelius , who succeeded Fabianus , by lawfull ordination , Novatianus is not in the Church . I purposely here speak only of externall Communion with the Catholique Church . For in this point there is great difference between internall acts of our understanding , and will ; and of externall deeds . Our Vnderstanding and Will , are faculties ( as Philosophers speak ) abstractive , and able to distinguish , and as it were , to part things , though in themselves they be really conjoyned . But reall externall deeds doe take things in grosse as they find them , not separating things which in reality are joyned together . Thus , one may consider and loue a sinner as he is a man , friend , benefactor , or the like ; and at the same time not consider him , nor loue him as he is a sinner ; because these are acts of our Vnderstanding and will , which may respect their objects under some one formality , or consideration , without reference to other things contained in the selfe same objects . But if one should strike , or kill a sinfull man , he will not be excused , by alleaging , that he killed him , not as a man , but as a sinner ; because the selfe same person being a man , and the sinner , the externall act of murder fell joyntly upon the man , and the sinner . And for the same reason one cannot avoid the company of a sinner , and at the same time be really present with that man who is a sinner . And this is our case : and in this our Adversaries are egregiously , & many of them affectedly , mistaken . For one may in some points belieue as the Church believeth , and disagree from her in other . One may loue the truth which she holds , and detest her ( pretended ) corruptions . But it is impossible that a man should really separate himselfe from her externall Communion , as she is corrupted , and be really within the same externall Communion as she is sound ; because she is the selfe same Church which is supposed to be sound in some things , and to erre in others . Now , our question for the present doth concern only this point of externall Communion : because Schisme , as it is distinguished from Heresie , is committed when one divides himselfe from the Externall Communion of that Church with which he agrees in Faith ; Whereas Heresie doth necessarily imply a difference in matter of Faith , and beliefe : and therefore to say , that they left not the visible Church , but her errours , can only excuse them from Heresie ( which sh●ll be tried in the next Chapter ) but not from Schisme , as long as they are really divided from the Externall Communion of the selfe same visible Church , which , notwithstanding those errours wherein they doe in judgement dissent from her , doth still remain the true Catholique Church of Christ ; and therefore while they forsake the corrupted Church , they forsake the Catholique Church . Thus then it remaineth cleer , that their chiefest Answer changeth the very state of the Question ; confoundeth internall acts of the Vnderstanding with externall Deeds ; doth not distinguish between Schisme and Heresie ; and leaues this demonstrated against them : That they divided themselues from the Communion of the visible Catholique Church , because they conceived that she needed Reformation . But whether this pretence of Reformation will acquit them of Schisme , I referre to the unpartiall judges , heretofore n alleaged ; as to S. Irenaeus who plainly saith : They cannot make any so important REFORMATION , as the Evill of the Schisme is pernicious . To S. Denis of Alexandria , saying : Certainly all things should be endured rather then to consent to the division of the Church of God : those Martyrs being no lesse glorious that expose themselues to hinder the dismembring of the Church , then those that suffer rather then they will offer sacrifice to Idols . To S. Augustine , who tells us : That not to heare the Church , is a more grievous thing then if he were striken with the sword , consumed with flames , exposed to wild beasts . And to conclude all in few words , he giveth this generall prescription : There is no just necessity to divide unity , And D. Potter may remember his own words : There neither was s nor can be any just cause to depart from the Church of Christ ; no more then from Christ himselfe . But I haue shewed that Luther , and the rest departed from the Church of Christ ( if Christ had any Church upon earth : ) Therefore there could be no just cause ( of Reformation , or what else soever ) to doe as they did ; and therefore they must be contented to be held for Schismatiques . 18 Moreover ; I demand whether those corruptions which moved them to forsake the Communion of the visible Church , were in manners , or doctrine ? Corruption in manners yeelds no sufficient cause to leave the Church , otherwise men must goe not only out of the Church , but out of the world , as the Apostle t saith . Our blessed Saviour foretold that there would bee in the Church cares with choice corne , and ●inners with just men . If then Protestants wax zealous , with the Servants to pluck up the weeds , let them first harken to the wisdome of the Master : Let both grow up . And they ought to imitate them , who as S. Augustine saith , tolerate for the good of u Vnity , that which they detest for the good of equity . And to whom the more frequent , & foule such scandals are ; by so much the more is the merit of their perseverance in the Communion of the Church , and the Martyrdome of their patience , as the same Saint calls it . If they were offended with the life of some Ecclesiasticall persons , must they therefore deny obedience to their Pastors , and finally break with Gods Church ? The Pastour of Pastours teacheth us another lesson : Vpon the Chaire of Moyses w haue sitten the Scribes and Pharisees . All things threfore whatsoever they shall say to you , obserue yee , and doe yee : but according to their works doe yee not . Must people except against lawes , and revolt from Magistrats , because some are negligent , or corrupt in the execution of the same lawes , and performance of their office ? If they intended Reformation of manners , they used a strange means for the achieving of such an end , by denying the necessity of Confession , laughing at aufferity of pennance , condemning the vowes of Chastity , poverty , obedience , breaking fasts , &c. And no lesse unfit were the Men , then the Meanes . I loue not recrimination . But it is well known to how great crimes , Luther , Calvin , Zwinglius , Beza , and other of the prime Reformers were notoriously obnoxious ; as might bee easily demonstrated by the onely transcribing of what others haue delivered upon that subject ; whereby it would appeare , that they were very farre from being any such Apostolicall men as God is wont to use in so great a work . And whereas they were wont , especially in the beginning of their revolt , malitiously to exaggerate the faults of some Clergy men , Erasmus said well ( Epist ad fratres inferior is Germaniae , ) Let the riot , lust , ambition , avarice of Priests and what soever other crimes be gathered together , Heresie a●one doth exceed all this filthy lake of vices . Besides , nothing at all was omitted by the sacred Councell of Trent which might tend to reformation of manners . And finally the vices of others are not hurtfull to any but such as imitate , and consent to them ; according to the saying of S. Augustine : We conserve innocency , not by knowing the ill deeds of men , but by not yeelding consent to such as we know , and by not judging rashly of such faults as we know not . If you answer ; that , not corruption in manners , but the approbation of them , doth yeeld sufficient cause to leaue the Church ; I reply with S. Augustine , that the Church doth ( as the pretended Reformers ought to haue done ) tolerate or beare with scandals and corruptions , but neither doth , nor can approue them . The Church ( saith he ) being placed z betwixt much chaffe and cockle , doth beare with many things ; but doth not approue , nor dissemble , nor act those things which are against faith , and good life . But because to approue corruption in manners as lawfull , were an errour against Faith , it belongs to corruption in doctrine , which was the second part of my demand . 19 Now then , that corruptions in doctrine ( I still speak upon the untrue supposition of our Adversaries ) could not afford any sufficient cause , or colourable necessity to depart from that visible Church , which was extant when Luther rose , I demonstrate out of D. Potters own confession ; that the Catholique Church neither hath , nor can erre in points fundamentall , as wee shewed out of his own expresse words , which he also of set purpose delivereth in divers other places ; and all they are obliged to maintain the same , who teach that Christ had alwaies a visible Church upon earth : because any one fundamentall error overthrowes the being of a true Church . Now ( as Schoolmen speak ) it is , implicatio in terminis ( a contradiction so plain , that one word destroyeth the other , as if one should say , a living dead man ) to affirm , that the Church doth not erre in points necessary to salvation , or damnably ; & yet that it is damnable to remain in her Communion because she teacheth errors which are confessed not to be damnable . For if the error be not damnable , nor against any fundamentall Article of Faith , the beliefe thereof cannot bee damnable . But D. Potter teacheth , that the Catholique Church cannot , and that the Roman Church hath not erred against any fundamentall Article of Faith : Therefore , it cannot bee damnable to remaine in her Communion ; and so the pretended corruptions in her doctrine could not induce any obligation to depart from her Communion , nor could excuse them from Schisme , who upon pretence of necessity in point of conscience , forsook her . And D. Potter will never bee able to salve a manifest contradiction in these his words : To depart from the Church a of Rome in some Doctrine , and practises , there might be necessary cause , though she wanted nothing necessary to salvation . For if , notwithstanding these Doctrines and practises , shee wanted nothing necessary to salvation ; how could it be necessary to salvation to forsake her ? And therefore wee must still conclude that to forsake her , was properly an act of Schisme . 20 From the selfe same ground of the infallibility of the Church in all fundamentall points , I argue after this manner . The visible Church cannot be forsaken , without damnation , upon pretence that it is damnable to remain in her Communion , by reason of corruption in doctrine ; as long as , for the truth of her Faith and beliefe , she performeth the duty which she dweth to God , and her Neighbour : As long as she performeth what our Saviour exacts at her hands : as long as she doth , as much as lies in her power to doe . But ( even according to D. Potters Assertions ) the Church performeth all these things , as long as she erreth not in points fundamentall , although she were supposed to erre in other points not fundamentall : Therefore , the Communion of the visible Church cannot be forsaken without damnation , upon pretence that it is damnable to remain in her Communion , by reason of corruption in doctrine . The Major , or first Proposition of it selfe is evident . The Minor , or second Proposition do●h necessarily follow out of D. Potters own doctrine above-rehearsed , that , the promises of our Lord made to his Church for his assistance , are to be b extended only to points of faith , or fundamentall : ( Let me note here by the way that by his ( Or , ) he seemes to exclude from Faith all points which are not fundamentall , and so we may deny innumerable Texts of Scripture : ) That It is c comfort enough for the Church , that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers &c. but she may not hope to triumph over all sinne and errour , till she be in heaven . For it is evident , that the Church ( for as much as concernes the truth of her doctrines and beliefe ) owes no more duty to God and her Neighbour ; neither doth our Saviour exact more at her hands , nor is it in her power to doe more then God doth assist her to doe ; which assistance is promised only for points fundamentall ; and con●equently as long as she teacheth no fundamentall error , her communion cannot without damnation be forsaken . And we may fitly apply against D. Potter a Concionatory declamation which he makes against us , where he saith : d May the Church of after Ages make the narrow way to heaven , narrower then our Saviour left it & c ? since he himselfe obligeth men under pain of damnation to forsake the Church , by reason of errours against which our Saviour thought it needlesse to promise his assistance , and for which he neither demeth his grace in this life , or glory in the next . Will D. Potter oblige the Church to doe more then she may even hope for ? or to performe on earth that which is proper to heaven alone ? 21 And as from your own doctrine concerning the infallibility of the Church in fundamentall points , we have proved that it was a grievous sinne to forsake her : so doe we take a strong arg●ment from the fallibility of any who dare pretend to reforme the Church , which any man in his wits will believe to be indued with at least as much infallibility as private men can challeng ; & D. Potter expresly affirmeth that Christs promises of his assistance are not intended e to any particular persons or Churches : & therefore to leave the Church by reason of errours , was at best hand b●t to flit from one erring company to another , without any new hope of triumphing over errours , and without necessity , or utility to forsake that Communion of which S. Augustine saith , There is f no just necessity to divide Vnity . Which will appear to be much more evident if we consider that though the Church had maintained some false doctrines , yet to leave her Communion to remedy the old , were but to adde a new increase of errors , arising from the innumerable disagreements of Sectaries , which must needs bring with it a mighty masse of falshoods , because the truth is but one , and indivisible . And this reason is yet stronger ▪ if we still remember , that even according to D. Potter the visible Church hath a blessing not to erre in points fundamentall , in which any private Reformer may faile : and therefore they could not pretend any necessity to forsake that Church , out of whose communion they were exposed to danger of falling into many more , and even into damnable errors . Remember I pray you , what your selfe affirmes ( pag. 69. ) where speaking of our Church and yours , you say : All the difference is from the weeds , which remain there , and here are taken away ; Yet neither here perfectly , nor every where alike . Behold a fair confession of corruptions , still remaining in your Church , which you can only excuse by saying they are not fundamentall , as likewise those in the Roman Church are confessed to be not fundamentall . What man of judgement will be a Protestant , since that Church is confessedly a corrupt one ? 22 I still proceed to impugne you expresly upon your own grounds . You say , that it is comfort enough for the Church , that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers : but she may not hope to triumph over all sinne , and errour till she be in heaven . Now if it be comfort enough to be secured from all capitall dangers , which can arise only from error in fundamentall points : why were not your first reformers content with enough , but would needs dismember the Church , out of a pernitious greedinesse of more then enough ? For , this enough , which according to you is attained by not erring in points fundamentall , was enjoyed before Luthers reformation , unlesse you will now against your selfe affirme , that long before Luther there was no Church free from error in fundamentall points . Moreover if ( as you say ) no Church may hope to triumph over all errour till she be in heaven ; You must either grant , that errors not fundamentall cannot yeeld sufficient cause to forsake the Church , or else you must affirme that all community may , and ought to be forsaken , & so there will be no end of Schismes : or rather indeed there can be no such thing as Schis●e because according to you , all communities are subject to errors not fundamentall , for which if they may be lawfully forsaken , it followeth cleerely that it is not Schisme to forsake them . Lastly , since it is not lawfull to leave the Communion of the Church for abuses in life and manners , because such miseries cannot be avoided in this world of temptation : and since according to your Assertion no Church may hope to triumph over all sinne and error ; You must grant that as she ought not to be left by reason of sinne ; so neither by reason of errors not fundamentall ; because both sinne , and errour are ( according to you ) impossible to be avoided till she be in heaven . 23 Furthermore , I aske whether it be the Q●antity or Number ; or Quality , and Greatnesse of doctrinall errors that may yeild sufficient cause to relinquish the Churches Communion ? I prove that neither . Not the Quality , which is supposed to be beneath the degree of points fundamentall , or necessary to salvation . Not the Quantity or Number : for the foundation is strong enough to support all such unnec●ssary additions , as you terme them . And if they once weighed so heavy as to overthrow the foundation , they should grow to fundamentall errors , into which your selfe teach the Church cannot fall . Hay and stubble ( say you ) and such g unprofitable st●ff , laid on the roofe , destroies not the house , whilest the main pillars are standing on the foundatio● . And tell us , I pray you , the precise number of errors which cannot be tolerated ? I know you cannot doe it ; and therefore being uncertain , whether or no you have cause to leave the Church , you are certainly obliged not to forsake her . Our blessed Saviour hath declared his will , that we forgive a private offender seaventy seaven times , that is , without limitation of quantity of time , or quality of trespasses ; and why then dare you alleadge his command , that you must not pardon his Church for errors , acknowledged to be not fundamentall ? What excuse can you faine to your selves ; who for points not necessary to salvation , have been occasions , causes , and authors of so many mischiefes , as could not but unavoidably accompany so huge a breach , in kingdomes , in commonwealths , in private persons , in publique Magistrates , in body , in soul , in goods , in life , in Church , in the state , by Schismes , by rebellions , by war , by famine , by plague , by bloudshed , by all sorts of imaginable calamities upon the whole face of the earth , wherein as in a map of Desolation , the heavinesse of your crime appeares , under which the world doth pant ? 24 To say for your excuse , that you left not the Church , but her errors , doth not extenuate , but aggravate your sinne . For by this devise , you sow seeds of endles Schismes , and put into the mouth of all Separatists , a ready answere how to avoid the note of Schisme from your Protestant Church of England , or from any other Church whatsoever . They will , I say , answer , as you doe prompt , that your Church may be forsaken , if she fall into errors , though they be not fundamentall : and further that no Church must hope to be free from such errors ; which two grounds being once laid , it will not be hard to infer the consequence , that she may be forsaken . 25 From some other words of D. Potter I likewise prove , that for Errors not fundamentall , the Church ought not to be forsaken , There neither was ( saith he ) nor can be h any just cause to depart from the Church of Christ , no more then from Christ himselfe . To depart from a particular Church , and namely from the Church of Rome , in some doctrines and practises , there might be just and necessary cause , though the Church of Rome wanted nothing necessary to salvation . Marke his doctrine , that there can be no iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ : and yet he teacheth , that the Church of Christ , may erre in points not fundamentall ; Therefore ( say I ) we cannot forsake the Roman Church for points not fundamentall , for then we might also forsake the Church of Christ , which your selfe deny : and I pray you consider , whether you doe not plainly contradict your selfe , while in the words aboue recited , you say there can be no iust cause to forsake the Catholique Church ; and yet that there may be necessary cause to depart from the Church of Rome , since you grant that the Church of Christ may erre in points not fundamentall : and that the Roman Church hath erred only in such points ; as by and by we shall see more in particular . And thus much be said to disprove their chiefest Answer , that they left not the Church , but her corruptions . 26 Another evasion D. Potter bringeth , to avoid the imputation of Schisme , and it is , because they still acknowledge the Church of Rome to be a Member of the body of Christ , and not cut off from the hope of salvation . And this ( saith he ) cleeres us from i the imputation of Schisme , whose property it is , to cut off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of salvation , the Church from which it separates . 27 This is an Answere which perhaps you may get some one to approve , if first you can put him out of his wits . For what prodigious doctrines are these ? Those Protestants who believe that the Church erred in points necessary to salvation , and for that cause left her , cannot be excused from damnable Schisme : But others who believed that she had no damnable errors , did very well , yea were obliged to forsake her : and ( which is more miraculous , or rather monstrous ) they did well to forsake her formally and precisely , because they iudged . that she retained all meanes necessary to salvation , I say , because they so iudged , For the very reason for which he acquitteth himselfe , and condemneth those others as Schismatiques , is because he holdeth that the Church which both of them forsooke , is not cut off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of Salvations whereas those other Zelots deny her to be a member of Christs body , or capable of salvation , wherein alone they disagree from D. Potter : for in the effect of separation they agree , only they doe it upon a different motive or reason . were it not a strange excuse , if a man would think to cloak his rebellion , by alledging that he held the person against whom he rebelled to be his lawfull Soveraign ? And yet D. Potter thinks himselfe free from Schisme , because he forsook the Church of Rome , but yet so , as that still he held her to be the true Church , and to have all necessary meanes to Salvation . But I will no further urge this most solemne foppery , and doe much more willingly put all Catholiques in mind , what an unspeakeable comfort it is , that our Adversaries are forced to confesse , that they cannot cleere themselves from Schisme , otherwise then by acknowledging that they doe not , nor cannot cut off from the hope of Salvation our Church . Which is as much as if they should in plain termes say : They must be damned , unlesse we may be saved . Moreover this evasion doth indeed condemne your zealous brethren of Heresy , for denying the Churches perpetuity , but doth not cleere your selfe from Schisme , which consists in being divided from that true Church , with which a man agreeth in all points of faith , as you must professe your selfe to agree with the Church of Rome in all fundamentall Articles . For otherwise you should cut her off from the hope of salvation , and so condemne your selfe of Schisme . And lastly even according to this your own definition of Schisme , you cannot cleere your selfe from that crime , unlesse you be content to acknowledge a manifest contradiction in your own Assertions . For if you doe not cut us off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of Salvation ; how come you to say in another place , that you judge a reconciliation with us to be k damnable ! That to depart from the Church of Rome , there might be iust and necessary l canse ? That , they that have the understanding and meanes to discover their error , and neglect to use them m we dare not flatter them ( say you ) with so easy a censure , of hope of salvation ? If then it be ( as you say ) a property of Schisme , to cut off from the hope of Salvation , the Church from which it separates : how will you cleere your selfe from Schisme , who dare not flatter us with so easy a censure ? and who affirme that a reconciliation with us is damnable ? But the truth is , there is no constancy in your Assertions , by reason of difficulties which presse you on all sides . For , you are loath to affirme cleerely , that we may be saved , least such a grant might be occasion ( as in all reason it ought to be ) of the conversion of Protestants to the Roman Church : And on the other side , if your affirme , that our Church erred in points fundamentall , or necessary to salvation , you knew not how , not where , not among what company of men , to find a perpetuall visible Church of Christ , before Luther : And therefore your best shift is to say , and unsay , as your occasion command . I doe not examine your Assertion , that it is the property of Schisme , to cut off from the Body of Christ , and the hope of Salvation , the Church from which it separates : wherein you are mightily mistaken , as appears by your own example of the Donatists , who were most formall and proper Heretiques , and not Schismatiques , as Schisme is a vice distinct from Heresy . Besides , although the Donatists , and Luciferians ( whom you also alledge ) had been meere Schismatiques , yet it were against all good Logick , from a particular to inferre a generall Rule , to determine what is the property of Schisme . 28 A third device I find in D. Potter to cleere his brethren from Schisme . There is ( saith he ) great difference between n a Schisme from them , and a Reformation of our selves . 29 This I confesse is a quaint subtilty , by which all Schisme , & Sinne may be as well excused . For what divell incarnate could meerely pretend a separtion , and not rather some other motive of vertue , truth , profit , or pleasure ? But now since their pretended Reformation consisted , as they ga●e out , in forsaking the corruptions of the Church : the Reformation of themselves , and their division from us , falls out to be one , and the selfe same thing . Nay we see , that although they infinitely disagree in the particulars of their reformation , yet they symbolize , and consent in the generall point of forsaking our pretended corruptions : An evident signe , that the thing , upon which their thoughts first pitched , was not any particular Modell , or Idea of Religion , but a setled resolution to forsake the Church of Rome . Wherefore this Metaphysicall speculation , that they intended only to reforme themselves , cannot possible excuse them from Schisme , unlesse first they be able to prove , that they were obliged to depart from us . Yet for as much as concernes the fact it selfe ; it is cleere , that Luthers revolt did not proceed from any zeale of reformation . The motives which put him upon so wretched , and unfortunate a work , were Covetousnesse , Ambition , Lust , Pride , Envy , and grudging that the promulgation of Indulgences , was not committed to himself , or such as he desired . He himself taketh God to witnesse , that he fell into these troubles casually , and o against his will ( not upon any intention of Reformation ) not so much as dreaming or suspecting any change which might p happen . And he began to preach ( against Indulgences ) when he knew not what q the matter meant . For ( saith he ) I scarcely understood r then what the name of Indulgences meant . In so much as afterwards Luther did much mistake of his owne undertaken course , oftentimes ( saith he ) wishing s that I had never begunne that businesse . And Fox saith : It is apparent that t Luther promised Cardinall Caietan to keep silence , provided also his adversaries would doe the like . M. Cowper reporteth further , that Luther by his letter submitted u himself to the Pope , so that he might not be compelled to recant . With much more , which may be seen in w Brereley . But this is sufficient to shew , that Luther was farre enough , from intending any Reformation . And if he judged a Reformation to be necessary , what a huge wickednesse was it in him , to promise silence if his adversaries would doe the like ? Or to submit himself to the Pope , so that he might not be compelled to recant ? Or if the Reformation were not indeed intended by him , nor judged to be necessary , how can he be excused frō damnable Schisme ? And this is the true manner of Luthers revolt , taken from his owne acknowledgments , and the words of the more ancient Protestants themselves , whereby D. Potters faltring , and mincing the matter , is cleerely discovered , and confuted . Vpon what motives our Country was divided from the Roman Church by king Henry the Eight , and how the Schisme was continued by Queene Elizabeth , I have no heare to rip up . The world knoweth , it was not upon any zeale of Reformation . 30 But you will prove your former evasion by a couple of similitudes : If a Monastery x should reforme it selfe , and should reduce into practise , ancient good discipline , when others would not ; in this case could it is reason bee charged with Schisme from others , or with Apostacy from its rule and order ? Or as in a society of men universally infected with some disease , they that should free themselves from the common disease , could not be therefore said to separate from the society : so neither can the reformed Churches be truely accused for making a Schisme from the Church , seeing all they did , was to reforme themselves . 31 I was very glad to find you in a Monastery , but sorry when I perceived that you were inventing wayes how to forsake your Vocation , and to maintaine the lawfulnesse of Schisme from the Church , and Apostasie from a Religious Order . Yet before you make your finall resolution , heare a word of advise . Put case ; That a Monastery did confessedly observe their substantiall vowes , and all principall Statutes , or Constitutions of the Order , though with some neglect of lesser Monasticall Observances : And that a Reformation were undertaken , not by authority of lawfull Superiours , but by some One , or very few in comparison of the rest : And those few knowne to be led , not with any spirit of Reformation , but by some other sinister intention : And that the Statutes of the house were even by those busie fellowes confessed , to have been time out of mind understood , and practised as now they were : And further that the pretended Reformers acknowledged that themselves as soone as they were gone out of their Monastery , must not hope to be free from those or the like errors and corruptions , for which they left their Brethren : And ( which is more ) that they might fall into more enormous crimes then they did , or could doe in their Monastery , which we suppose to be secured from all substantiall corruptions , for the avoyding of which they have an infallible assistance . Put ( I say ) together all these my And 's , and then come with your If 's , If a Monastery should reforme it self , &c. and tell me , if you could excuse such Reformers from Schisme , Sedition , Rebellion , Apostasie , & c ? what would you say of such Reformers in your Colledge ? or tumultuous persons in a kingdome ? Remember now your owne Tenets , and then reflect how fit a similitude you have picked out , to prove your self a Schismatique . You teach that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall , but that for all fundamentall points she is secured from error : You teach that no particular person , or Church hath any promise of assistance in points fundamentall . You , and the whole world can witnesse that when Luther began , he being but only One , opposed himself to All , as well subjects , as superiours ; and that even then , when he himself confessed that he had no intention of Reformation : You cannot be ignorant but that many chief learned Protestants are forced to confesse the Antiquity of our doctrine and practice , and doe in severall , and many Controversies , acknowledge that the Ancient Fathers stood on our Side : Consider I say these points , and see whether your similitude doe not condemne your Progenitors of Schisme from God's visible Church , yea and of Apostasie also from their Religious Orders , if they were vowed Regulars , as Luther , and divers of them were . 32 From the Monastery you are f●ed into an Hospitall of persons vniversally infected with some disease , where you find to be true what I supposed , that after your departure from your Brethren you might fall into greater inconveniences , and more infectious diseases , then those for which you left them . But you are also upon the point to abandon these miserable needy persons , in whose behalf for Charities sake , let me set before you these considerations . If the disease neither were , nor could be mortall , because in that Company of men God had placed a Tree of life : If going thence , the sick man might by curious tasting the Tree of Knowledge eate poyson under pretence of bettering his health : If he could not hope thereby to avoid other diseases like those for which he had quitted the company of the first infected men : If by his departure innumerable mischiefs were to ensue ; could such a man without sencelesnesse be excused by saying , that he sought to free himself from the common disease , but not forsooth to separate from the society ? Now your self compare the Church to a man deformed with y superfluous fingers and toes , but yet who hath not lost any vitall part : you acknowledge that out of her society no man is secured from damnable errour , and the world can beare witnesse what unspeakable mischiefs and calamities ensued Luthers revolt from the Church ▪ Pronounce then concerning them , the same sentence which even now I have shewed them to deserve , who in the manner aforesaid should separate from persons universally infected with some disease . 33 But alas , to what passe hath Heresy brought men , who terme themselves Christians , and yet blush not to compare the beloved Spouse of our Lord , the one Dove , the pur●hase of our Saviours most precious blood , the holy Catholique Church , I mean that visible Church of Christ which Luther found spread over the whole world ; to a Monastery so disordered that it must be forsaken ; to the Gyant in Gath much deformed with superfluous fingers and toes ; to a society of men universally infected with some disease ! And yet all these comparisons , and much worse , are neither injurious , nor undeserved , if once it be granted , or can be proved , that the visible Church of Christ may erre in any one point of Faith , although not fundamentall . 34 Before I part from these similitudes , one thing I must observe against the evasion of D. Potter , that they left not the Church , but her Corruptions . For as those Reformers of the Monastery , or those other who left the company of men universally infected with some disease , would deny themselves to be Schismatiques , or any way blame-worthy , but could not deny , but that they left the said Communities : So Luther and the rest cannot so much as pretend , not to have left the visible Church , which according to them was infected with many diseases , but can only pretend that they did not sinne in leaving her . And you speak very strangly when you say : In a society of men universally infected with some disease , they that should free themselves from the Common disease , could not be therefore said to separate from the Society . For if they doe not separate themselves from the Society of the infected persons ; how doe they free themselves and depart from the common disease ? Doe they at the same time remain in the company , and yet depart from those infected creatures ? We must then say , that they separate themselves from the persons , though it be by occasion of the disease : Or if you say , they free their owne persons from the common disease , yet so , that they remain still in the Company infected , subject to the Superiours and Governours thereof , eating and drinking and keeping publique Assemblies with them ; you cannot but know , that Luther and your Reformers the first pretended free persons from the supposed common infection of the Roman Church , did not so : for they endeavoured to force the Society whereof they were parts , to be healed and reformed as they were : and if it refused , they did , when they had forces , drive thē away , even their Superiours both spirituall and temporall , as is notorious . Or if they had no : power to expell that supposed infected Community , or Church of that place , they departed from them corporally , whom mentally they had forsaken before . So that you cannot deny , but Luther forsook the externall Communion , and company of the Catholique Church , for which as your self z confesse , There neither was nor can be any just cause , no more then to depart from Christ himself . We doe therefore infer , that Luther and the rest who for●ook that visible Church which they found upon earth , were truely , and properly Schismatiques . 35 Moreover , it is evident that there was a division between Luther and that Church which was Visible when he arose : but that Church cannot be said to have divided her self from him , befo●e whose time she was , and in comparison of whom she was a Whole , and he but a part : therefore we must say , that he divided himself and went out of her ; which is to be a Schismatique , or Heretique , or both . By this argument , Optatus Milevitanus proveth , that not Caecilianus , but Par menianus was a Schismatique , saying : For , Caecilianus went a not out of Maiorinu● thy Grana●ather , but Maiorinus , from Caecilianus : neither did Caecilianus depart from the Chayre of Peter , or Cyprian , but Maiorinus , in whose Chayre thou sittest , which had no beginning be●ore Maiorinus . Since it manifestly appeareth that these things were acted in this manner , it is cleare that you are beyres both of the deliverers up ( of the holy Bible to be burned ) and also of Schismatiques . The whole argument of this holy Father makes directly both against Luther , and all those who continue the division which he begun ; and proves , That , going out , convinceth those who goe out to be Schismatiques ; but not those from whom they depart : That to forsake the Chaire of Peter is Schisme ; yea , that it is Schisme to erect a Chaire which had no origen , or as it were predecessou● , before it self : That to continue in a division begun by others , is to be Heires of Schismatiques ; and lastly ; that to depart from the Communion of a particular Church ( as that of S. ●yprian was ) is sufficient to make a man incur the guilt of Schisme , and consequently , that although Protestants , who deny the Pope to be supreme Head of the Church , doe think by that Heresy to cleere Luther from Schisme , in disobeying the Pope : Yet that w●ll not serve to free him from Schisme , as it importeth a division from the obedience , or Communion of the particular Bishop , Diocesse , Church , and Country , where he lived . 36 But it is not the Heresy of Protestants , or any other Sectaries , that can deprive S. Peter , and his Successours , of the authority which Christ our Lord conferred upon them over his whole militant Church : which is a point confessed by learned Protestants to be of great Antiquity , and for which the judgement of divers most ancient holy Fathers is reproved by them , as may be seen at large in Brerely b exactly citing the places of such chiefe Protestants . And we must say with S. Cyprian : Heresies c have sprung , and Schismes been bred from no other cause then for that the Priest of God is not obeyed , nor one Priest and Iudge is considered to be for the time in the Church of God. Which words doe plainely condemne Luther , whether he will understand them as spoken of the Vniversall , or of every particular Church . For he withdrew himselfe both from the obedience of the Pope , and of all particular Bishops , and Churches . And no lesse cleere is the said Optatus Milevitanus , saying : Thou caust not deny d but that thou knowest , that in the City of Rome , there was first an Episcopall Chaire placed for Peter , wherein Peter the head of all the Apostles sate , whereof also he was called Cephas ; in which one Chaire , Vn was to be kept by all , least the other Apostles might attribute to themselves , each one his particular chaire ; and that he should be a Schismatique and sinner , who against that one single Chaire should erect another . Many other Authorities of Fathers might be alleaged to this purpose , which I omit ; my intention being not to handle particular controversies . 37 Now , the arguments which hitherto I have brought , prove that Luther , and his followers were Schismatiques , without examining ( for as much as belongs to this point ) whether or no the Church can erre in any one thing great or small , because it is universally true , that there can be no just cause to forsake the Communion of the Visible Church of Christ , according to S. Augustine , saying : It is not possible e that any may have just cause to separate their Communion , from the Communion of the whole world , and call themselves the Church of Christ , as if they had separated themselves from the Communion of all Nations upon just cause . But since indeed the Church cannot erre in any one point of doctrine , nor can approve any corruption in manners ; they cannot with any colour avoid the just imputation of eminent Schisme , according to the verdict of the same holy Father in these words : The most manifest f sacriledge of Schisme is eminent when there was no cause of separation . 38 Lastly , I prove that Protestants cannot avoid the note of Schisme , at least by reason of their mutuall separation from one another . For most certain it is that there is very great difference , for the outward face of a Church , and profession of a different faith , between the Lutherans , the rigid Calvinists , and the Protestants of England . So that if Luther were in the right , those other Protestants who invented Doctrines far different from his , and divided themselues from him , must be reputed Schismatiques : and the like argument may proportionably be applyed to their further divisions , & subdivisions . Which reason I yet urge more strongly out of D. Potter , g who affirmes , that to him and to such as are convicted in conscience of the errors of the Roman Church , a reconciliation is impossible , and damnable : And yet he teacheth , that their difference from the Roman Church , is not in fundamentall points . Now , since among Protestants there is such diversity of beliefe , that one denieth what the other affirmeth , they must be convicted in conscience that one part is in errour ( at least not fundamentall , ) and , if D. Potter will speak consequently , that a reconciliation between them is impossible & dānable : & what greater division , or Schisme can there be , then when one part must judge a reconciliation with the other to be impossible , & dānable ? 39 Out of all which premisses , this Conclusion followes : That , Luther & his followers were Schismatiques ; from the universall visible Church ; from the Pope Christs Vicar on earth , & Successour to S. Peter ; from the particular Diocesse in which they received Baptisme ; from the Countrey or Nation to which they belonged ; from the Bishop under whom they lived ; many of them from the Religious Order in which they were professed ; from one another ; And lastly from a mans selfe ( as much as is possible ) because the selfe same Protestant to day is convicted in conscience , that his yesterday's Opinion was an error ( as D. Potter knows a man in the world who from a Puritan was turned to a moderate Protestant ) with whom therefore a reconciliation , according to D. Potters grounds , is both impossible , and damnable . 40 It seemes D. Potters last refuge to excuse himselfe and his Brethren from Schisme , is because they proceeded according to their conscience , dictating an obligation under damnation to forsake the errours maintained by the Church of Rome . His words are : Although we confesse the h Church of Rome to be ( in some sense ) a true Church , and her errors to some men not damnable● yet for us who are convinced in conscience , that she erres in many things , a necessity lies upon us , even under pain of damnation , to forsake her in those errors . 41 I answer : It is very strange , that you judge us extreamly Vncharitable , in saying , Protestants cannot be saved ; while your selfe avouch the same of all learned Catholiques , whom ignorance cannot excuse . If this your pretence of conscience may serue , what Schismatique in the Church , what popular seditious brain in a kingdome , may not alledge the dictamen of conscience to free themselves from Schisme , or Sedition ? No man wishes them to doe any thing against their conscience , but we say , that they may , and ought to rectifie , and depose such a conscience , which is easie for them to doe , even according to your own affirmation ▪ that wee Catholiques want no meanes necessary to salvation . Easie to doe ? Nay not to doe so , to any man in his right wits must seem impossible . For how can these two apprehensions stand together : In the Roman Church I enjoy all meanes necessary to salvation , and yet I cannot hope to be saved in that Church ? or , who can conjoyn in one brain ( not crack't ) these assertions ▪ After due examination I judge the Roman errors not to be in themselues fundamentall , or damnable ; and yet I judge that according to true reason , it is damnable to hold them ? I say according to true reason . For if you grant your conscience to be erroneous , in judging that you cannot be saved in the Roman Church , by reason of her errours ; there is no other remedy , but that you must rectifie your erring conscience , by your other judgement , that her errours are not fundamentall , nor damnable . And this is no more Charity , then you daily afford to such other Protestants as you term Brethren , whom you cannot deny to be in some errors , ( unlesse you will hold , That of contradictory propositions both may be true ) and yet you doe not judge it damnable to liue in their Communion , because you hold their errors not to be fundamentall . You ought to know , that according to the Doctrine of all Divines , there is great difference between a speculatiue perswasion , and a practicall dictamen of conscience ; and therefore although they had in speculation conceived the visible Church to erre in some doctrines , of themselves not damnable ; yet with that speculatiue judgement they might , and ought to haue entertained this practicall dictamen , that for points not substantiall to faith , they neither were bound , nor lawfully could break the bond of Charity , by breaking unity in Gods Church . You say that ▪ hay and stubble i and such unprofitable stuffe ( as are corruptions in points not fundamentall ) laid on the roofe , destroyes not the house , whilst the main pillars are standing on the foundation . And you would think him a mad man who to be rid of such stuffe , would set his house on fire , that so he might walk in the light , as you teach that Luther was obliged to forsake the house of God , for an unnecessary light , not without a combustion formidable to the whole Christiā world ; rather then beare with some errours , which did not destroy the foundation of faith . And as fo● others who entred in at the breach first made by Luther , they might , and ought to haue guided their consciences by that most reasonable rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis , delivered in these words ; Indeed it is a matter of great k moment , and both most profitable to be learned , and necessary to be remembred , and which we ought again and again to illustrate , and inculcate with weighty heapes of examples , that almost all Catholiques may know , that they ought to receiue the Doctors with the Church , and not forsake the faith of the Church with the Doctors : And much lesse should they forsake the faith of the Church to follow Luther , Calvin , and such other Novelists . Moreover though your first Reformers had conceived their own opinions to be true ; yet they might , and ought to haue doubted , whether they were certain : because your selfe affirm , that infallibility was not promised to any particular Persons , or Churches . And since in cases of uncertainties , we are not to leave our Superiour , nor cast off his obedience , or publiquely oppose his decrees ; your Reformers might easily haue found a safe way to satisfie their zealous conscience , without a publique breach : especially if with this their uncertainty , we call to mind the peaceable possession , & and prescription which by the confession of your own Brethren , the Church , and Pope of Rome did for many ages enjoy . I wish you would examine the works of your Brethren , by the words your selfe sets down to free S. Cyprian from Schisme : every syllable of which words convinceth Luther , and his Copartners to be guilty of that crime , and sheweth in what manner they might with great ease , and quietnesse haue rectified their consciences about the pretended errours of the Church . S. Cyprian ( say you ) was a peaceable l and modest man , dissented from others in his iudgement , but without any breach of Charity ; condemned no man ( much lesse any Church ) for the contrary opinion . He believed his own opinion to be true , but believed not , that it was necessary , and therefore did not proceed rashly and peremptorily to censure others , but left them to their liberty . Did your Reformers imitate this manner of proceeding ? Did they censure no man , much lesse any Church ? S. Cyprian believed his own Opinion to be true , but believed not that it was necessary , and THEREFORE did not proceed rashly , and peremptorily to censure others . You belieue the points wherein Luther differs from us , not to be fundamentall , or necessary ; and why doe you not thence infer the like THEREFORE , he should not haue proceeded to censure others ? In a word , since their disagreement from us concerned only points which were not fundamentall , they should haue believed that they might haue been deceived , as well as the whole visible Church , which you say may erre in such points ; and therefore their doctrines being not certainly true , and certainly not necessary , they could not giue sufficient cause to depart from the Communion of the Church . 42 In other places you write so much , as may serve us to proue , that Luther , and his followers ought to haue deposed , and rectified their consciences : As for example , when you say : When the Church m hath declared her selfe in any matter of opinion ▪ or of Rites , her declaration obliges all her children to peace , and externall obedience . Nor is it fit , or lawfull for any private man to oppose his judgement to the publique ; ( as Luther and his fellows did ) He may offer his opinion to be considered of , so he doe it with evidence , or great probability of Scripture , or reason , and very modestly , still containing himself within the dutifull respect which he oweth : but if he will factiously advance his own conceits ( his own conceits ? & yet grounded upon evidence of Scripture ) & despise the Church so far as to cut of her Cōmunion ; he may be justly branded & condemned for a Schismatique , yea & an Heretique also in some degree , & in foro exteriori , though his opinion were true , & much more if it be false . Could any man , even for a Fee , haue spoken more home to condemn your Predecessors of Schisme , or Heresy ? Could they haue stronger Motives to oppose the doctrine of the Church , and leave her Communion , then evidence of Scripture ? And yet , according to your own words , they should haue answered , & rectified their conscience , by your doctrine , that though their opinion were true , and grounded upon evidence of Scripture , or reason ; yet it was not lawfull for any private man to oppose his iudgement to the publique , which obligeth all Christians to peace & externall obedience : and if they cast off the Communion of the Church for maintaining their own Conceits , they may be branded for Schismatiques , and Heretiques in some degree , & in foro exteriori , that is , all other Christians ought so to esteem of them , ( and why then are we accounted uncharitable for judging so of you ? ) and they also are obliged to behaue themselves in the face of all Christian Churches , as if indeed they were not Reformers , but Schismatiques , and Heretiques , or as Pagans , & Publicans . I thank you for your ingenuous confession , in recompence whereof , I will doe a deed of Charity , by putting you in mind , into what labyrinths you are brought , by teaching that the Church may erre in some points of faith , & yet that it is not lawful for any man to oppose his judgement , or leave her Communion , though he haue evidence of Scripture against her . Will you have such a man dissemble against his conscience , or externally deny a truth , known to be cōtained in holy Scripture ? How much more coherently doe Catholiques proceed , who believe the universall infallibility of the Church , and from thence are assured , that there can be no evidence of Scripture ; or reason , against her definitions , nor any just cause to forsake her Communion ? M. Hooker , esteemed by many Protestants an incomparable man , yeelds as much as we haue alleaged out of you . The will of God is ( saith he ) to haue n them doe whatsoever the sentence of judiciall and finall decision shall determine , yea though it seeme in their private opinion , to swarve utterly from that which is right . Doth not this man tell Luther , what the will of God was , which he transgressing , must of necessity bee guilty of Schisme ? And must not M. Hooker either acknowledge the universall infallibility of the Church , or else driue men into the perplexities and labyrinths of dissembling against their conscience , whereof now I speake ? Not unlike to this , is your doctrine delivered elsewhere . Before the Nicene Councell ( say you ) many o good Cotholique Bishops , were of the same opinion with the Donatists , that the Baptisme of Heretiques was ineffectuall ; and with the Novatians , that the Church ought not to absolve some grievous sinners . These errours therefore ( if they had gone no further ) were not in themselves Hereticall , especially in the proper , and most heavy , or bitter sense of that word ; neither was it in the Churches intention ( or in her power ) to make them such by her declaration . Her intention was , to silence all disputes , and to settle peace and unitie in her government : to which all wise and peaceable men submitted , whatsoever their opinion was . And those factious people , for their unreasonable and uncharitable opposition , were very justly branded for Schismatiques . For us , the Mistaker will never proue that we oppose any declaration of the Catholique Church &c. and therefore hee doth uniustlie charge us either with Schisme , or Heresie . These wordes manifestly condemne your Reformers ; who opposed the visible Church in many of her declarations , Doctrines , and Commands imposed upon them , for silencing all disputes , and setling peace and Vnity in the government , and therefore they still remaining obstinately disobedient , are justly charged with Schisme , and Heresie . And it is to be observed , that you grant the Donatists to haue been very justly branded for Schismatiques , although their opposition against the Church , did concern ( as you hold ) a point not fundamentall to the Faith , and which according to S. Augustine , cannot be proved out of Scripture alone ; and therefore either doth evidently convince that the Church is universally infallible , even in points not fundamentall ; or else that it is Schisme , to oppose her declarations , in those very things wherein she may erre ; and consequently that Luther , and his fellowes were Schismatiques , by opposing the visible Church , for points not fundamentall , though it were ( untruely ) supposed that she erred in such points . But by the way , how come you on the suddaine to hold the determination of a Generall Councell ( of Nice ) to be the declaration of the Catholique Church , seeing you teach , That Generall Councels may erre even fundamentally ? And doe you now say , with us , that to oppose the declaration of the Church , is sufficient that one may be branded with Heresie , which is a point so often impugned by you ? 43 It is therefore most evident , that no pretended scruple of conscience could excuse Luther ; which he might , and ought to have rectified by meanes enough ; if Pride , Ambition , Obstinacy &c. had given him leave . I grant he was touched with scruple of conscience , but it was because he had forsaken the visible Church of Christ ; and I beseech all Protestants for the loue they beare to that sacred ransome of their soules , the Blood of our blessed Saviour , attentiuely to ponder , and unpartially to apply to their owne Conscience , what this Man spoke concerning the feelings , and remorse of his . How often ( saith he ) did my trembling heart p beat within me , and reprehending me , obiect against me that most strong argument ; Art thou only wise ? Doe so many worlds erre ? Were so many ages ignorant ? What if thou errest , and drawest so many into hell to be damned eternally with thee ? And in another place he saith : Dost thou who art but One , and of no q account , take upon thee so great matters ? What , if thou , being but one , offendest ? If God permit such , so many , & all to erre ; why may he not permit thee to erre ? To this belong those arguments , the Church , the Church , the Fathers , the Fathers , the Councels , the Customes , the multitudes , and greatnes of wise men : Whom doe not these Mountaines of arguments , these clouds , yea these seas of Examples overthrow ? And these thoughts wrought so deep in his soule , that he often wished and desired that he had r never begun this businesse : wishing yet further that his Writings were burned and buried s in eternall oblivion . Behold what remorse Luther felt , and how he wanted no strength of malice to crosse his own conscience : and therefore it was no scruple , or conceived obligation of conscience , but some other motives which induced him to oppose the Church . And if yet you doubt of his courage to encounter , and strength to master all reluctations of conscience , heare an example or two for that purpose . Of Communion under both kinds , thus he saith : If the Councell t should in any case decree this , least of all would we then use both kinds , yea rather in despight of the Councell , and the Decree , we would use either but one kind only , or neither , or in no case both . Was not Luther perswaded in Conscience , that to use , neither kind was against our Saviours command ? Is this only to offer his opinion to be considered of , as you said all men ought to doe ? And that you may be sure that he spoke from his heart , and if occasion had been offered , would have been as good as his word ; mark what he saith of the Elevation of the Sacrament : I did know u the Elevation of the Sacrament to be Idolatricall ; yet neverthelesse I did retain it in t●e Church at Wittemberg , to the end I might vexe the divell Carolostadius . Was not this a conscience large and capacious enough , that could swallow Idolatry ? Why would he not tolerate Idolatry in the Church of Rome ( as these men are wont to blaspheame ) if he could retain it in his own Church at Wittemberge ? If Carolostadius , Luthers of spring , was the Divell , who but himself must be his damme ? Is Almighty God wont to send such furies to preach the Gospell ? And yet further ( which makes most directly to the point in hand ) Luther in his Book of abrogating the Private Masse , exhorts the Augustine Friers of Wittemberg , who first abrogated the Masse , that , even against their conscience accusing them , they should persist in what they had begun , acknowledging that in some things he himself had done the like . And Ioannes Mathesius a Lutheran Preacher saith : Antonius Musa the Parish Priest w of Rocklitz , recounted to me that on a time he heartily moaned himself to the Doctor ( he meanes Luther ) that he himself could not believe what he preached to others : And that D. Luther answered ; praise and thanks be to God , that this happens also to others , for I had thought it had happened only to me . Are not these conscionable , and fit Reformers ? And can they be excused from Schisme , under pretence that they held themselves obliged to forsake the Roman Church ? If then it be damnable to proceed against ones conscience , what will become of Luther who against his conscience , persisted in his division from the Roman Church ? 44 Some are said to flatter themselves with another pernicious conceit , that they ( forsooth ) are not guilty of sinne ; Because they were not the first Authors , but only are the continuers of the Schisme , which was already begunne . 45 But it is hard to believe , that any man of judgment , can think this excuse will subsist , when he shall come to give up his finall accompt . For according to this reason , no Schisme will be damnable , but only to the Beginners : Whereas contrarily , the longer it continues the worse it growes to be , and at length degenerates to Heresy ; as wine by long keeping growes to be Vineger , but not by continuance , returnes again to his former nature of wine . Thus S. Augustine saith , that Heresy is x Schisme in veterate . And in another place : We obiect to you only the y crime of Schisme , which you have also made to become Heresy , by evill persevering therein . And S. Hierom saith : Though Schisme z in the beginning may be in some sort understood to be defferent from heresy ; yet there is no Schisme , which doth not feig●e to it self some Heresy , that it may seem to haue departed from the Church upon iust cause , And so indeed it falleth out . For men may begin ●pō passiō , but afterward by instinct of corrupt nature seeking to maintain their Schisme as lawfull , they fall into some Heresy , without which their Separation could not be justified with any colour : as in our present case the very affirming that it is lawfull to continue a Schisme unlawfully begun , is an error against the main principle of Christianity , that it is not lawfull for any Christian , to live out of Gods Church , within which alone Salvation can be had ; Or , that it is not damnable to disobey her decrees , according to the words of our Saviour : If he shall not hear a the Church , let him be to thee as a Pagan or Publican . And , He b that despiseth you , despiseth mee . We heard above Optatus Milevitanus saying to Parmenianus , that both he , and all those other who continued in the Schisme begun by Majorinus , did inherit their Forefathers Schisme ; and yet Parmenianus was the third Bishop after Majorinus in his Sea , and did not begin , but only continue the Schisme . For ( saith this holy Father ) Caecilianus c went not out of Majorinus thy Grand-Father , but Majorious from Caecilianus : neither did Caecilianus depart from the Chaire of Peter , or Cyprian , but Majorinus , in whose Chaire thou fittest , which before Majorinus ( Luther ) had no beginning . Seing it is evident that these things passed in this manner ( that , for example , Luther departed from the Church , and not the Church from Luther ) it is cleere that you be HEIRES both of the givers up of the Bible to be burned , and of SCHISMATIQVES . And the Regall Power , or example of He●ry the Eight could not excuse his subjects from Schisme , according to what we have heard out of S. Crysostome saying : Nothing doth so much provoke d the wrath of Almighty God , as that the Church should be divided . Although we should doe innumerable good deeds , if we divide the full Ecclesiasticall Congregation , we shall be punished no lesse , then they who did rend his ( naturall ) Body ; for that was done to the gaine of the whole world , though not with that intention : but this hath ●o good in it at all , but that the greatest hurt riseth from it . These things are spoken not only to those who bear office , but to such also as are governed by them . Behold therefore , how liable both Subjects , and Superiours are to the sinne of Schisme , if they breake the unity of Gods Church . The words of S. Paul can in no occasion be verified more then in this of which we speak . They who doe such things e are worthy of death : and not only they that doe them , but they also that consent with the doers . In things which are indifferent of their own nature , Custome may be occasion , that some act not well begun , may in time come to be lawfully continued . But no length of Time , no Quality of Persons , no Circumstance of Necessity can legitimate actions which are of their own nature unlawfull : and therefore division from Christs mysticall body , being of the number of those Actions , which Divines teach to be intrinsecè malas , evill of their own nature and essence , no difference of Persons or Time can ever make it lawfull . D. Potter saith : There neither was , nor can be any cause to depart from the Church of Christ , no more then from Christ himselfe . And who dares say , that it is not damnable to continue a Separation from Christ ? Prescription cannot in conscience runne , when the first beginner , and his Successors are conscious that the thing to be prescribed , for example goods or lands , were unjustly possessed at the first ▪ Christians are not like straies , that after a certain time of wandring from their right home , fall from their owner to the Lord of the Soile ; but as long as they retaine the indelible Character of Baptisme , and live upon earth , they are obliged to acknowledge subjection to Gods Church . Humane ▪ Lawes may come to nothing by discontinuance of time , but the Law of God , commanding us to conserve Vnity in his Church , doth still remain . The continued disobedience of Children cannot deprive Parents of their paternall right , nor can the Grand-child be undut●full to his Grand-Father , because his Father was unnaturall to his own parent . The longer Gods Church is disobeyed ; the profession of her Doctrine denied ; her Sacraments neglected ; her Liturgy condemned ; her Vnity violated ; the more grievous the fault growes to be : as the longer a man with-holds a due debt , or retaines his neighbours goods , the greater injustice he commits . Constancy in evill doth not extenuate , but aggravate the same , which by extension of time , receiveth increase of strength , and addition of greater malice . If these mens conceits were true , the Church might come to be wholly divided by wicked Schismes , and yet after some space of time , none could be accused of Schisme , nor be obliged to returne to the visible Church of Christ : and so there should remaine no One true visible Church . Let therefore these men who pretend to honour , reverence , and believe the Doctrine , and practise of the visible Church , and to condemne their forefathers who forsooke her , and say they would not have done so , if they had lived in the daies of their Fathers , and yet follow their example in remaining divided from her Communion ; consider , how truly these words of our Saviour fall upon them . Woe be to you , because you build f the Prophets sepulchers , and garnish the monuments of just men , and say : If we had been in our Fathers daies , we had not been their fellowes in the blood of the Prophets . Therefore you are a testimony to your own selves , that you are the sonnes of them that killed the Prophets ; and fill up the measure of your Fathers . 46 And thus having demonstrated that Luther , his Associates , and all that continue in the Schisme by them begun , are guilty of Schisme , by departing from the visible true Church of Christ ; it remaineth that we examine what in particular was that Visible true Church , from which they departed , that so they may know to what Church in particular they ought to returne : and then we shall have performed what was proposed to be handled in the fift Point . 47 That the Roman Church ( I speak not for the present , of the particular Diocesse of Rome , but of all visible Churches dispersed throughout the whole world , agreeing in Faith with the Chaire of Peter , whether that Sea were supposed to be in the City of Rome or in any other place : ) That ( I say ) the Church of Rome , in this sense , was the visible Catholique Church out of which Luther departed , is proved by your own confession , who assigne for notes of the Church , the true Preaching of Gods word , and due administration of Sacraments , both which for the substance you cannot deny to the Roman Church , since you confesse that she wanted nothing fundamentall , or necessary to salvation ; and for that very cause you think to cleare your selfe from Schisme , whose property , as you say , is to cut off from the g Body of Christ and the hope of Salvation , the Church from which it separates . Now that Luther and his fellowes were born and baptized in the Roman Church , and that she was the Church out of which they departed , is notoriously known : and therefore you cannot cut her off from the Body of Christ , and hope of Salvation , unlesse you will acknowledge your selfe to deserve the just imputation of Schisme . Neither can you deny her to be truly Catholique by reason of ( pretended ) corruptions , not fundamentall . For your selfe avouch , and endeavour to prove , that the true Catholique Church may erre in such points . Moreover , I hope you will not so much as goe about to prove , that when Luther rose , there was any other true visible Church , disagreeing from the Roman , and agreeing with Protestants in their particular doctrines : and you cannot deny but that England in those daies agreed with Rome , and other Nations with England : And therefore either Christ had no visible Church upon Earth , or else you must grant that it was the Church of Rome . A truth so manifest , that those Protestants who affirme the Roman Church to have lost the nature and being of a true Church , doe by inevitable consequence grant , that for divers ages Christ had no visible Church on earth : from which error , because D. Potter disclaimeth , he must of necessity maintaine , that the Roman Church is free from fundamentall , and damnable error , and that she is not cut off from the Body of Christ , and the Hope of Salvation : And if ( saith he ) any Zelots amongst us haue proceeded h to heavier censures , their zeale may be excused , but their Charity and wisdome cannot be justified . 48 And to touch particulars which perhaps some may object . No man is ignorant that the Grecians , even the Schismaticall Grecians , doe in most points agree with Roman Catholiques , and disagree from the Protestant Reformation . They teach Transubstantiation ( which point D. Potter also i confesseth ; ) Invocation of Saints and Angels ; veneration of Reliques , and Images ; Auricular Confession ; enjoyned Satisfaction ; Confirmation with Chrisme ; Extream unction ; All the seaven Sacraments ; Prayer , Sacrifice , Almes for the dead ; Monachisme ; That Priests may not marry after their Ordination . In which points that the Grecians agree with the Roman Church appeareth by a Treatise published by the Protestant Divines of Wittemberg , intituled , Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium , & I●remiae Patriarchae Constantinop . de Augustana confessione &c. Wittembergae anno 1584. by the Protestant k Crispinus , and by Sir Edwin Sands in the Relation of the State of Religion of the West . And I wonder with what colour of truth ( to say no worse ) D. Potter could affirme that the Doctrines debated between the Protestants l and Rome , are only the partiall and particular fancies of the Roman Church ; unlesse happily the opinion of Transubstantiation may be excepted , wherein the latter Grecians seem to agree with the Romanists . Beside the Protestant Authors already cited , Petrus Arcudi●s a Grecian , and a learned Catholique Writer , hath published a large Volume , the Argument and Title whereof is : Of the agreement of the Roman , and Greek Church in the seven Sacraments . As for the Heresy of the Grecians , that the Holy Ghost proceeds not from the Some , I suppose that Protestants dissvow them in that error , as we doe . 49 D. Potter will not ( I think ) so much wrong his reputation , as to tell us , that the Waldenses , Wiccliffe , Husse , or the like were Protestants , because in some things they disagreed from Catholiques . For he well knowes that the example of such men is subject to these manifest exceptions , They were not of all Ages , not in all Countries , But confined to certain places , and were interrupted in Time , against the notion and nature of the word Catholique . They had no Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy , nor Succession of Bishops , Priests , and Pastors . They differed among themselues , and from Protestants also . They agreed in divers things with us against Protestants . They held doctrines manifestly absurd and damnable heresies . 50 The Waldenses began not before the year 1218 , so farre were they from Vniversality of all Ages . For their doctrine : first , they denied all Iudgements which extended to the drawing of bloud , and the Sabbath , for which cause they were called In-sabbatists . Secondly , they taught that Lay men , and women might consecrate the Sacrament , and preach ( no doubt but by this meanes to make their Master , Waldo , a meere lay man , capable of such functions . ) Thirdly , that Clergy men ought to have no possessions , or proprieties . Fourthly , that there should be no division of Parishes , nor Churches , for a walled Church they reputed as a barne . Fiftly , that men ought not to take an oath in any case . Sixtly , that those persons sinned mortally , who accompanied without hope of issue . Seaventhly , they held all things done above the girdle , by kissing , touching , words , compression of the breasts , &c. to be done in Charity , and not against Continency . Eightly , that neither Priest , nor civill Magistrate , being guilty of mortall sinne did enjoy their dignity , or were to be obeyed . Ninthly , they condemned Princes , and Iudges . Tenthly , they affirmed singing in the Church to be an hellish clamor . Eleaventhly , they taught that men might dissemble their Religion , & so accordingly they went to Catholique Churches , dissembling their faith , and made Offertories , confessions , and communions after a dissembling manner . Waldo was so unlearned , that ( saith m Fox ) he gave rewards to certain learned men to translate the holy Scripture for him , and being thus holpen did ( as the same Fox there reporteth ) confer the forme of religion in his time , to the infallible word of God. A goodly example , for such as must needs have the Scripture in English , to be read by every simple body , with such fruit of Godly doctrine , as we have seen in the foresaid grosse heresies of Waldo . The followers of Waldo , were like their Master , so unlearned , that some of them ( ●aith n Fox ) expounded the words , Ioan. 1. Sui eum non receperunt : Swine did not receive him . And to conclude , they agreed in divers things with Catholiques against Protestants , as may be seen in o Brerely . 51 Neither can it be pretended , that these are slanders , forged by Catholiques . For , for besides that the same things are testified by Protestant writers , as I●●yricus , Co●per , and others , our Authors cannot be suspected of partiality in disfavour of Protestants , unlesse you will say perhaps , that they were Prophets , and some hundred yeares agoe , did both foresee that there were to bee Protestants in the world , and that such Protestants were to be like the Waldenses . Besides , from whence , but from our Histories are Protestants come to know ; that there were any such men as the Waldenses ? and that in some points they agreed with the Protestants , & disagreed from them in others ? And upon what ground can they belieue our Authors for that part wherein the Waldenses were like to Protestants , and imagine they lyed in the rest ? 52 Neither could Wiccliffe continue a Church never interrupted from the time of the Waldenses , after whom he lived more then one hundred and fifty yeares ; to wit , the yeare 1371. Hee agreed with Catholiques about the worshipping of Reliques and Images : and about the Intercession of our blessed Lady , the ever Immaculate Mother of God , he went so far as to say , It seemes to me p impossible , that we should be rewarded without the intercession of the Virgin Mary . He held seaven Sacraments , Purgatory , and other points . And against both Catholiques and Protestants he maintained sundry damnable doctrines , as divers Protestant Writers relate . As first : If a Bishop or Priest be in deadly sinne , he doth not indeed either giue Orders , Consecrate , or Baptize . Secondly , That Ecclesiasticall Ministers ought not to haue any temporall possessions , nor propriety in any thing , but should beg ; and yet he himselfe brake into heresie because he had been deprived by the Archbishop of Canterbury of a certain Benefice ; as all Schismes , and heresies beginne upon passion , which they seek to cover with the cloak of Reformation . Thirdly he condemned lawfull Oathes , like the Anabaptists . Fourthly , he taught that all things came to passe by absolute necessity . Fiftly , he defended human merits as the wicked Pelagians did , namely , as proceeding from naturall forces , without the necessary help of God's grace . Sixtly , that no man is a Civill Magistrate , while he is in mortall sinne ; and that the people may at their pleasure correct Princes , when they offend : by which doctrine he proues himselfe both an Heretique , and a Traytour . 53 As for Husse , his chiefest Doctrines were : That Lay people must receive in both kinders and , That Civill Lords , Prelates and Bishops loose all right , and authority , while they are in mortall sinne , For other things he wholy agreed with Catholiques against Protestants ; and the Bohemians his followers being demanded , in what points they disagreed from the Church of Rome , propounded only these : The necessity of Communion under both kinds ; That all Civill Dominion was forbidden to the Clergy ; That Preaching of the word , was free for all men , and in all places ; That open Crimes were in no wise to be permitted for avoiding of greater evill . By these particulars , it is apparant , that Husse agreed with Protestants against us , in one only point of both kindes , ●hich according to Luther is a thing indifferent ; because he teacheth that Christ in this matter q commanded nothing as necessary . And he saith further : If thou come to a place r where one only kinde is administred , use one kinde only , as others doe . Melancthon likewise holds it a thing s indifferent : and the same is the opinion of some other Protestants . All which considered , it is cleer that Protestants cannot challenge the Waldenses , Wickliffe , and Husse for members of their Church : and although they could , yet that would advantage them little towards the finding out a perpetuall visible Church of theirs ; for the reasons aboue t specified . 54 If D Potter would goe so farre off , as to fetch the Muscovites , Armenians ▪ Georgians . Aethiopians , or Abissines into his Church , they would proue over deare bought : For they either hold the damnable heresy of Eu●iches , or use Circumcision , or agree with the Greek , or Roman Church . And it is most certaine that they have nothing to doe with the doctrine of the Protestants . 55 It being therefore granted that Christ had a visible Church in all ages , and that there can be none assigned but the Church of Rome ; it followes that she is the true Cath. Church ; and that those pretended Corruptions for which they forsook her , are indeed divine truths , delivered by the visible Catholique Church of Christ : And , that Luther and his followers departed from her , and consequently are guilty of Schisme , by dividing themselves from the Communion of the Roman Church . Which is cleerly convinced out of D. Potter himself , although the Roman Church were but a particular Church . For he saith : Whosoever professes u himself to forsake the Communion of any one member of the body of Christ , must confesse himself consequently to forsake the whole . Since therefore in the same place he expressely acknowledges the Church of Rome to be a member of the body of Christ , and that it is cleere they have forsaken her ; it evidently followes , that they haue forsaken the whole , and therefore are most properly Schismatiques . 56 And lastly , since the crime of Schisme is so grievous , that according to the doctrine of holy Fathers rehearsed aboue , no multitude of good works , no morall honesty of life , no cruel death endured even for the profession of some Article of faith can excuse any one who is guilty of that sinne from damnation , I leaue it to be considered , whether it be not true Charity to speak as wee believe , and to believe as all Antiquity hath taught us , That whosoever either beginnes , or continues a division for the Roman Church , which we haue proved to be Christs true Militant Church on earth , cannot without effectuall repentance hope to be a member of his Triumphant Church in heaven . And so I conclude with these words of blessed S. Augustine : It is common w to all Heretiques to be unable to see that thing which in the world is the most manifest , and placed in the light of all Nations , out of whose Vnity whatsoever they work , though they seem to doe it with great care and diligence , can no more availe them against the wrath of God , then the Spiders web against the extremity of cold But now it is high time that we treat of the other sort of Division from the Church , which is by Heresie . THE ANSVVER TO THE FIFTH CHAPTER . The separation of Protestants from the Roman Church , being upon iust and necessary causes , is not any way guilty of Schisme . 1 AD § 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. In the seaven first Sections of this Chapter , there be many things said and many things supposed by you which are untrue , & deserue a censure . As , 2 First , That Schisme could not be a Division from the Church , or that a Division from the Church could not happen , unlesse there alwaies had been and should be a visible Church . Which Assertion is a manifest falshood ; For although there never had been any Church Visible or Invisible before this age , nor should be ever after , yet this could not hinder , but that a Schisme might now be , and be a Division from the present visible Church . As though in France there never had been untill now a lawfull Monarch , nor after him ever should be , yet this hinders not , but that now there might be a Rebellion , and that Rebellion might be an Insurrection against Soveraigne authority . 3 That it is a point to be granted by all Christians , that in all ages there hath been a visible Congregation of faithfull people . Which Proposition howsoever you understand it , is not absolutely certain . But if you mean by Faithfull , ( as it is plain you doe ) free from all errour in faith , then you know all Protestants with one consent affirm it to bee false ; and therefore without proof to take it for granted is to beg the Question . 4 That supposing Luther and they which did first separate from the Roman Church were guilty of Schisme , it is certainly consequent , that all who persist in this division must be so likewise . Which is not so certaine as you pretend . For they which alter without necessary cause the present government of any state Civill or Ecclesiasticall , doe commit a great fault ; whereof notwithanding they may be innocent who continue this alteration , and to the utmost of their power oppose a change though to the former state , when continuance of time hath once setled the present . Thus haue I known some of your own Church , condemn the Low-countrey men who first revolted from the King of Spain , of the sin of Rebellion , yet absolve them from it who now being of your Religion there , are yet faithfull maintainers of the common liberty against the pretences of the K. of Spaine . 5 Fourthly , That all those which a Christian is to esteeme neighbours doe concurre to make one company , which is the Church . Which is false ; for a Christian is to esteeme those his neighbours , who are not members of the true Church . 6 Fiftly , That all the members of the Visible Church , are by charity united into one Mysticall body . Which is manifestly untrue ; for many of them have no Charity . 7 Sixtly , That the Catholique Church , signifies one company of faithfull people , which is repugnant to your own grounds . For you require , not true faith , but only the Profession of it , to make men members of the visible Church . 8 Seaventhly , That every Heretique is a Schismatique . Which you must acknowledge false in those , who though they deny , or doubt of some point professed by your Church , and so are Heretiques ; yet continue still in the Communion of the Church . 9 Eightly , That all the members of the Catholique Church , must of necessity be united in externall Communion . Which though it were much to be desired it were so , yet certainly cannot be perpetually true . For a man unjustly excommunicated , is not in the Churches communion , yet he is still a member of the Church : and divers times it hath happened , as in the case of Chrisostome and Epiphanius , that particular men , and particular Churches , have upon an overvalued difference , either renounced Communion mutually , or one of them separated from the other , and yet both have continued members of the Catholique Church . These things are in those seven Sections , either said or supposed by you untruly , without all shewe , or pretence of proofe . The rest is an impertinent common place , wherein Protestants and the cause in hand , are absolutely unconcern'd . And therefore I passe to the eighth Section . 10 Ad § . 8. Wherein you obtrude upon us , a double Fallacie ; One , in supposing and taking for granted , that whatsoever is affirmed by three Fathers , must be true ; whereas your selves make no scruple of condemning many things of falsehood , which yet are maintained , by more then thrice three Fathers . Another , in pretending their words to be spoken absolutely , which by them are limited and restrained to some particular cases . For whereas you say S. Austine . c. 62. l. 2. cont . Parm. infers out of the former premises , That there is no necessity to divide Vnity : to let passe your want of diligence , in quoting the 62. chapter of that Booke , which hath but 23. in it : to passe by also , that these words which are indeed in the 11. Chapt. are not inferred out of any such premises as you pretend , this I say is evident , that he saies not absolutely , that there never is , or can be any necessity to divide Vnity ( which only were for your purpose , ) but only in such a speciall cale , as he there sets down : That is , When good men tolerate bad men , which can doe thē no spirituall hurt , to the intent they may not be seperated from those , who are spiritually good : Then ( saith he ) there is no necessity to divide Vnity . Which very words doe cleerely give us to understand , that it may fall out ( as it doth in our case , ) that we cannot keep Vnity with bad men , without spirituall hurt , i. e. without partaking with them in their impieties , and that then there is a necessity to divide Unity from them : I mean , to break off conjunction with them in their impieties . Which that it was S. Austines mind , it is most evident out of the 21. c. of the same book : where to Parmenian demanding , how can a man remain pure , being joyned with those that are corrupted ? He answers , Very true , this is not possible , if he be ioyned with them , that is , if he commit any evill with them , or favour them which doe commit it . But if he doe neither of these , he is not ioyned with them . And presently after , these two things retained , will keep such men pure and uncorrupted ; that is , neither doing ill , nor approving it . And therefore seeing you impose upon all men of your Communion , a necessity of doing or at least approving many things unlawfull , certainly there lies upon us an unavoidable necessity of dividing unity , either with you , or with God ; and whether of these is rather to be done , be ye judges . 11 Irenaeus also saies not simply ( which only would doe you service , ) there cannot possibly be any so important Reformation , as to justify a separation from them who will not reforme : But only , they cannot make any corruption so great , as is the pernitiousnesse of a Schisme : Now , They , here , is a relative , and hath an antecedent expressed in Irenaeus , which if you had been pleased to take notice of , you would easily have seene , that what Irenaeus saies , falls heavy upon the Church of Rome , but toucheth Protestants nothing at all . For the men he speaks of , are such as Propter modicas & quaslibet causas , for trifling or small causes , divide the body of Christ ; such as speak of peace and make warre ; such as straine at gnatts , & swallow Camels . And these faith he , can make no reformation of any such importance , as to countervaile the danger of a division . Now seeing the causes of our separation from the Church of Rome , are ( as we pretend , and are ready to justify , ) because we will not be partakers with her in Superstition , Idolatry , Impiety , and most cruell Tyranny , both upon the bodies and soules of men . Who can say , that the causes of our separation , may be justly esteemed Modicae & quaelibet causae ? On the other side , seeing the Bishop of Rome , who was contemporary to Irenaeus , did as much ( as in him lay ) cut off from the Churches unity , many great Churches , for not conforming to him in an indifferent matter , upon a difference , Non de Catholico dogm●te , sed de Ritu , vel Ritus potiùs tempore , not about any Catholique doctrine , but only a Ceremony , or rather about the time of observing it ; so Petavius values it : which was just all one , as if the Church of France should excommunicate those of their own Religion in England , for not keeping Christmas upon the same day with them : And seeing he was reprehended sharpely and bitterly for it , by most of the Bishops of the world , as Eusebius testifies , and ( as Cardinall Perron though mincing the matter , yet confesseth ) by this very Ierenaeus himselfe in particular admonished , that for so small a cause ( propter tam modicam causam , ) he should not have cut off so many Provinces from the body of the Church : and lastly , seeing the Ecclesiasticall story of those times , mentions no other notable example of any such Schismaticall presumption , but this of Victor : certainly we have great inducement to imagine , that Irenaeus in this place by you quoted , had a speciall aime at the Bishop and Church of Rome . Once , this I am sure of , that the place fits him , and many of his successors , as well as if it had been made purposely for them . And this also , that he which finds fault with them who separate upon small causes , implies cleerely , that he conceived , there might be such causes as were great and sufficient : And that then a Reformation was to be made , notwithstanding any danger of division that might insue upon it . 12 Lastly , S. Denis of Alexandria , saies indeed and very well , that all things should be rather indured , then we should consent to the division of the Church : I would adde , Rather then consent to the continuation of the division , if it might be remedied . But then , I am to tell you , that he saies not All things should rather be done , but only , All things should rather be indured or suffered : wherein he speaks not of the evill of sinne , but of Pain and Misery : Not of tolerating either Error or Sinne in others ( though that may be lawfull , ) much lesse of joyning with others for quietnesse sake , ( which only were to your purpose ) in the profession of Errour and practise of sinne : but of suffering any affliction , nay even martyrdome in our own persons , rather then consent to the division of the Church . Omnia incommoda , so your own Christophorson , enforced by the circumstances of the place , translates Dionysius his words , All miseries should rather be endured , then we should consent to the Churches division . 13 Ad § . 9. In the next Paragraph you affirme two things , but prove neither , unlesse a vehement Asseveration , may passe for a weake proofe . You tell us first , that the Doctrine of the totall deficiency of the visible Church , which is maintained by divers chiefe Protestants , implies in it vast absurdity , or rather sacrilegious Blasphemy . But neither doe the Protestants alleaged by you , maintain the deficiency of the Visible Church , but only of the Churches visibility , or of the Church as it is Visible , which so acute a man as you , now that you are minded of it , I hope will easily distinguish : Neither doe they hold , that the visible Church hath failed totally and from its essence , but only from its purity : and that it fell into many corruptions , but yet not to nothing . And yet if they had held , that there was not only no pure visible Church , but none at all : surely they had said more then they could justify , but yet you doe not shew , neither can I discover any such Vast absurdity or Sacrilegious Blasphemy in this Assertion . You say secondly , that the Reason which cast them upon this wicked Doctrine , was a desperate voluntary necessity , because they were resolved not to acknowledge the Roman to be the true Church , and were convinced by all manner of evidence , that for diverse ages before Luther there was no other . But this is not to dispute but to divine , and take upon you the property of God which is to know the hearts of men . For why I pray , might not the Reason hereof rather be , because they were convinced by all manner of evidence , as Scripture , Reason , Antiquity , that all the visible Churches in the world , but aboue all the Roman , had degenerated from the purity of the Gospell of Christ , and thereupon did conclude there was no visible Church , meaning by no Church , none free from corruption , and conformable in all things to the doctrine of Christ. 14 Ad § . 10. Neither is there any repugnance ( but in words only ) between these ( as you are pleased to stile them ) exterminating Spirits , and those other , whom out of Curtesy you intitle , in your 10. § . more moderate Protestants . For these affirming the Perpetuall Visibility of the Church , yet neither deny , nor doubt of her being subject to manifold and grievous corruptions , and those of such a nature , as were they not mitigated by invincible , or at least a very probable ignorance , none subject to them could be saved . And they on the other side , denying the Churches Visibility , yet plainly affirme , that they conceive very good hope of the Salvation of many , of their ignorant and honest Fore-fathers . Thus declaring plainly , though in words they denyed the Visibility of the true Church , yet their meaning was not to deny the perpetuity , but the perpetuall purity and incorruption of the Visible Church . 15 Ad § . 11. Let us proceed therefore to your 11. Sect. where though D. Potter and other Protestants granting the Churches perpetuall Visibility , make it needlesse for you to prove it , yet you will needs be doing that which is needlesse . But you doe it so coldly and negligently , that it is very happy for you , that D. Potter did grant it . 16 For what if the Prophets spake more obscurely of Christ , then of the Church ? What if they had foreseen , that greater contentions would arise about the Church then Christ ? Which yet , he that is not a meere stranger in the story of the Church , must needs know to be untrue , and therefore not to be fore-seene by the Prophets . What if we have manifestly received the Church from the Scriptures ? Does it follow from any , or all these things , that the Church of Christ must be alwaies Visible ? 17 Besides , what Protestant ever granted ( that which you presume upon so confidently , ) that every man for all the affaires of his soule must have recourse to some congregation ? If some one Christian lived alone among Pagans in some country , remote from Christendome , shall we conceive it impossible for this man to be saved , because he cannot have recourse to any congregation , for the affaires of his soule ? Will it not be sufficient , for such a ones Salvation , to know the doctrine of Christ , and live according to it ? Such fancies as these , you doe very wisely to take for granted , because you know well , t is hard to prove them . 18 Let it be as unlawfull as you please , to deny and dissemble matters of faith . Let them that doe so , not be a Church , but a damned Crew of Sycophants : What is this to the Visibility of the Church ? May not the Church be Invisible , and yet these that are of it professe their faith ? No , say you : Their profession will make them visible . Very true , visible in the places where , and in the times when they live , and to those persons , unto whom they have necessary occasion , to make their profession : But not visible to all , or any great , or considerable part of the world while they live , much lesse conspicuous to all Ages after them . Now it is a Church thus illustriously and conspicuously visible that you require : by whose splendour , all men may be directed & drawn to repaire to her , for the affaires of their soules : Neither is it the Visibility of the Church absolutely , but this degree of it , which the most rigid Protestants deny : which is plaine enough out of the places of Napper , cited by you in your 9. Part. of this chapt . Where his words are , God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open Assemblies , to the hearts of particular godly men . And this Church which had not open Assemblies , he calls The latent and Invisible Church . Now I hope Papists in England will be very apt to grant , men may be so farre Latent and Invisible , as not to professe their faith in open Assemblies , nor to proclaime it to all the world , & yet not deny , nor dissemble it ; nor deserve to be esteemed a damned crew of dissembling Sycophants . 19 But preaching of the word , and administration of the Sacraments , cannot but make a Church visible : and these are inseparable notes of the Church . I answer , they are so far inseparable , that wheresoever they are , there a Church is : But not so , but that in some cases there may bee a Church , where these notes are not . Againe , these notes will make the Church visible : But to whom ? certainly not to all men , nor to most mē : But to them only to whom the word is preached , and the Sacraments are administred . They make the Church visible to whom themselves are visible , but not to others . As where your Sacraments are administred , and your doctrine preached , it is visible , that there is a Popish Church . But this may perhaps be visible to them only , who are present at these performances , and to others as secret , as if they had never beene performed . 20 But S. Austine saith , it is an impudent , abominable , detestable speech , and so forth , to say the Church hath perished . I answer ; 1. All that S. Austine sayes , is not true . 2. Though this were true , it were nothing to your purpose , unlesse you will conceive it all one not to be , & not to be conspicuously visible . 3. This very speech that the Church perished , might be false and impudent in the Donatists , and yet not so in the Protestants . For there is no incongruity , that what hath lived 500. yeares , may perish in 1600. But S. Austin denyed not only the Actuall perishing , but the possibility of it : and not only of it's falling to nothing , but of it's falling into corruption . I answer : though no such thing appeares out of those places , yet I believe heare of disputation against the Donatists , and a desire to over-confute them , transported him so farre , as to urge against them more then was necessary , and perhaps more then was true . But were he now revived , & did but confront the doctrine of after-ages , with that , his owne experience would enforce him to change his opinion . As concerning the last speech of S. Austine , I cannot but wonder very much , why he should thinke it absurd for any man to say , There are sheepe which he knowes not , but God knowes : and no lesse at you , for obtruding this sentence upon us as pertinent proofe of the Churches visibility . 21 Neither doe I see , how the Truth of any present Church depends the Perpetuall Visibility , nay nor upon the perpetuity of that which is past or future . For what sense is there , that it should not be in the power of God Almighty , to restore to a flourishing estate , a Church which oppression hath made Invisible ? to repaire that which is ruined ; to reforme that which was corrupted , or to reviue that which was dead ? Nay what Reason is there , but that by ordinary meanes this may be done , so long as the Scriptures by Divine Providence are preserved in their integrity and Authority ? As a Common-wealth though never so farre collapsed and overrunne with disorders , is yet in possibility of being reduc'd unto its Originall state , so long as the Ancient Lawes , and Fundamentall Constitutions are extant , and remain inviolate , from whence men may be directed how to make such a Reformation . But S. Austine urges this uery Argument against the Donatists , and therefore it is good . I answer , that I doubt much of the Consequence , and my Reason is , because you your selves acknowledge , that even generall Councels ( and therefore much more particular Doctors ) though infallible in their determinations ▪ are yet in their Reasons and Arguments , where upon they ground them , subject to like Passions and Errours with other men . 22 Lastly , whereas you say , That all Divines define Schisme a Division from the true Church , and from thence collect , That there must be a known Church from which it is possible for men to depart : I might very justly question your Antecedent , and desire you to consider , whether Schisme be not rather , or at least be not as well a division of the Church , as from it ? A separation not of a part from the whole , but of some parts from the other . And if you liked not this definition , I might desire you to inform me in those many Schismes , which haue hapned in the Church of Rome , which of the parts was the Church , & which was divided from it . But to let this passe , certainly your consequence is most unreasonable . For though whensoever there is a Schisme , it must necessarily suppose a Church existent there , yet sure wee may define a Schisme , that is , declare what the word signifies ( for Defining is no more ) though at this presēt there were neither Schisme nor Church in the world . Vnlesse you will say , that we cannot tell what a Rose is , or what the word Rose signifies , but only in the Summer when wee haue Roses : or that in the world to come , when men shall not marry , it is impossible to know , what it is to marry : or that the Plague is not a disease , but only when some body is infected : or that Adultery is not a sin , unlesse there be Adulterers : or that before Adam had a Child , hee knew not , & God could not haue told him , what it was to be a Father . Certainly Sr , you haue forgot your Metaphysicks , which you so much glory in , if you know not , that the connexions of essentiall predicates with their subjects , are eternall , & depend not at all upō the actuall existence of the thing defined . This Definition therefore of Schisme , concludes not the existence of a Church , even when it is defined ▪ much lesse the perpetuall continuance of it , and least of all the continuance of it in perpetuall visibility and purity , which is the only thing that we deny , & you are to proue . By this time , you perceive I hope , that I had reason to say , that it was well for you , that D. Potter granted the Churches Perpetuall Visibility : for , for ought I can perceive , this Concession of his , is the best stake in your hedge , the best piller upon which this Conclusion stands ; which yet is the only ground-work of your whole Accusation . 23 Ad § 12. 47. 48. 49. 50. 51. 52. 53. 54. 55. The remainder of this Chapter , to convince Luther and all that follow him to be Schismatiques , affords us Arguments of two sorts : The first drawn from the nature of the thing : the second from D. Potters words & acknowledgments . So that the former if they be good , must bee good against all Protestants : the latter only against D. Potter . I will examine them all , & doubt not to make i● appeare even to your selfe , if you haue any indifference , that there is not any sound & concluding reason amongst them , but that they are all poore and miserable Sophismes . 24 First then to proue us Schismatiques , you urge from the nature of Schisme this only Argument . Whosoever leaue the externall Communion of the visible Church , are Schismatiques : But Luther and his followers left the externall Communion of the visible Church of Christ : Therefore they are Schismatiques . The Major of this Syllogisme you leaue naked without proofe ; and conceiue it , as it should seem , able enough to shift for it selfe . The Minor or second Proposition of this Argument , you prove by two other . The first is this . They which forsook the externall Communion of all visible Churches , must needs forsake the externall Communion of the true visible Church of Christ : But Luther and his followers forsook the externall Communion of all visible Churches : Therefore they forsook the externall Communion of the true visible Church . The Major of this Syllogisme you take for granted ( as you haue reason : ) The Minor you prosecute with great pomp of words , & proue with plenty of Reasons , built upon the Confessions of D. Potter , Luther , Calvin , and other Protestants ; and this you doe in the 12 § of this Chapter . The second Argument to prove the Assumption of your first Syllogisme , stands thus . The Roman Church , when Luther and his followers made the separation , was the true visible Church of Christ : But Luther and his followers forsook the externall Communion of the Roman Church : Therefore they forsook the externall Communion of the true visible Church of Christ. The Assumption of this Syllogisme needs no proof : The Proposition which needs it very much , you endeavour to confirme by these Reasons . 1 The Roman Church had the notes of the Church assigned by Protestants , 1. The true preaching of the Word , and due administration of the Sacraments : Therefore she was the true Church . The Antecedent is proved : Because D. Potter confesses shee wanted nothing Fundamentall or necessary to salvation : Therefore for the Substance of the matter she had these notes . 2 Either the Roman Church was the true visible Church , or Protestants can name and proue some other disagreeing from the Roman , and agreeing with Protestants , in their particular Doctrine : or else they must say , there was no visible Church : But they will not say there was no Church : They cannot name and proue any other disagreeing from the Roman , and agreeing with Protestants in their particular Doctrines ; because this cannot be the Greek Church , nor that of the Waldenses , Wicklifites , Hussites , nor that of the Muscovites , Armenians , Georgians , Aethiopians , which you confirme by severall Arguments : Therefore they must grant , that the Roman Church was the true visible Church . And this is the businesse of your 47. 48. 49. 50. 51 , 52. 53. 54. and 55. Sections of this Chapter . 25 Now to all this , I answer very briefly thus : That you have played the unwise builder , and erected a stately structure upon a false foundation . For whereas you take for granted as an undoubted Truth , That whosoever leave the externall communion of the visible Church , are Schismaticall , I tell you Sir , you presume too much upon us , and would have us grant , that which is the main point in Question . For either you suppose the externall Communion of the Church corrupted , and that there was a necessity for them , that would communicate with this Church , to communicate in her corruptions : Or you suppose her Communion uncorrupted . If the former , and yet will take for granted , that all are Schismatiques , that leave her Communion though it bee corrupted , you beg the Question in your proposition . If the latter , you beg the Question in your supposition , for Protestants , you know , are Peremptory and Vnanimous in the Deniall of both these things : Both that the Communion of the Visible Church , was then uncorrupted ; And that they are truly Schismatiques , who leave the Communion of the Visible Church , if corrupted ; especially , if the case be so ( and Luthers was so ) that they must either leave her Communion , or of necessity Communicate with her in her corruptions . You will say perhaps , that you have already proved it impossible , that the Church , or her Communion should be corrupted . And therefore that they are Schismatiques , who leave the externall Communion of the Visible Church , because she cannot be corrupted . And that hereafter you will prove , that corruptions in the Churches communion , though the belief and profession of them be made the condition of her communion , cannot justify a separation from it : And therefore that they are Schismatiques , who leave the Churches communion though corrupted . I Answer , that I have examined your proofes of the former , & found that a veine of Sophistry runs cleane through them : And for the latter , it is so plain and palpable a falsehood , that I cannot but be confident , whatsoever you bring in proofe of it , will like the Apples of Sodom , fall to Ashes upon the first touch . And this is my first and main exception against your former discourse : that accusing Protestants of a very great and horrible crime , you have proved your accusation only with a fallacy . 26 Another is , that although it were granted Schisme , to leave the externall Communion of the visible Church in what state or case so ever it be , and that Luther & his followers were Schismatiques , for leaving the externall Communion of all visible Churches : yet you faile exceedingly of cleering the other necessary point undertaken by you , That the Roman Church was then the Visible Church . For neither doe Protestants ( as you mistake ) make the true preaching of the word , and due administration of the Sacraments , the notes of the visible Church , but only of a visible Church : now these you know are very different things , the former signifying the Church Catholique , or the whole Church : the Latter a Particular Church , or a part of the Catholique . And therefore suppose out of curtesy , we should grant , what by argument you can never evince , that your Church had these notes , yet would it by no meanes follow , that your Church were the Visible Church , but only a Visible Church : not the whole Catholique , but only a part of it . But then besides , where doth D. Potter acknowledge any such matter as you pretend ? Where doth he say , that you had for the substance the true Preaching of the word , or due Administration of the Sacraments ? Or where does he say , that ( from which you collect this ) you wanted nothing Fundamentall , or necessary to Salvation ? He saies indeed , that though your Errors were in themselves damnable , and full of great impiety , yet he hopes , that those amongst you , who were invincibly ignorant of the truth , might by Gods great mercy , have their errors pardoned , and their soules saved : And this is all he saies , and this you confesse to be all he saies , in diverse places of your book : which is no more , then you your selfe doe , and must affirme of Protestants : and yet I believe , you will not suffer us to inferre from hence , that you grant Protestants to have , for the substance , the true preaching of the word , and due administration of the Sacraments , and want nothing fundamentall , or necessary to salvation . And if we should draw this consequence from your concession , certainly we should doe you injury , in regard many things may in themselves , and in ordinary course be necessary to salvation , to those that have meanes to attain them , as your Church generally hath : which yet , by accident , to these which were by some impregnable impediment , debarred of these meanes , may by Gods mercy be made unnecessary . 27 Lastly , whereas you say , that Protestants must either grant that your Church then was the visible Church , or name some other , disagreeing from yours & agreeing with Protestants in their particular doctrine , or acknowledge there was no visible Church . It is all one as if ( to use S. Pauls similitude ) the head should say to the foot , either you must grant that I am the whole body , or name some other member that is so , or confesse that there is no body . To which the foot might answer ; I acknowledge there is a body : and yet , that no member beside you is this body : nor yet that you are it , but only a part of it . And in like manner say we . We acknowledge a Church there was , corrupted indeed universally , but yet such a one as we hope by Gods gratious acceptance , was still a Church . We pretend not to name any one Society that was this Church , and yet we see no reason , that can inforce us to confesse that yours was the Church , but only a part of it , and that one of the worst then extant in the World. In vain therefore have you troubled your selfe in proving , that we cannot pretend , that either the Greekes , Waldenses , Wickliffites , Hussites , Muscovites , Armenians , Georgians , Abyssines , were then the Visible Church . For all this dicourse proceeds from a false and vain supposition , and beggs another point in Question between us , which is , that some Church of one denomination and one Communion ( as the Roman , the Greeke &c. ) must be alwaies , exclusively to all other Communions , the whole visible Church . And though perhaps some weak Protestant having this false principle setled in him , that there was to be alwaies some Visible Church of one denomination , pure from all error in doctrine , might be wrought upon , and prevailed with by it , to forsake the Church of Protestants : yet why it should induce him to goe to yours , rather then the Greeke Church , or any other , which pretends to perpetuall succession as well as yours , that I doe not understand ; Vnlesse it be for the reason which Aeneas Syluius gave , why more held the Pope above a Councell , then a Councell above the Pope : which was because Popes did give Bishopricks , and Archbishopricks , but Councells gave none , and therefore suing in Forma Pauperis , were not like to have their cause very well maintained . For put the case , I should grant of meere favour , that there must be alwaies some Church of one Denomination and Communion , free from all errors in doctrine , and that Protestants had not alwaies such a Church : it would follow indeed from thence , that I must not be a Protestant : But that I must be a Papist , certainly it would follow by no better consequence then this ; If you will leave England , you must of necessity goe to Rome . And yet with this wretched fallacy , have I been sometimes abused my selfe , and known many other poore soules seduced , not only from their own Church , and Religion , but unto yours . I beseech God to open the eyes of all that love the truth , that they may not alwaies be held captive , under such miserable delusions . 28 We see then , how unsuccessefull you have been in making good your accusation , with reasons drawn from the nature of the thing , and which may be urged in common against all Protestants . Let us come now to the Arguments of the other kinde , which you build upon D. Potters own words , out of which you promise unanswerable reasons to convince Protestants of Schisme . 29 But let the understanding Reader , take with him but three or foure short remembrances , and I dare say he shall find them upon examination , not only answerable , but already answered . The memorandums I would commend to him , are these . 30 That not every separation , but only a causelesse separation from the externall Communion of any Church , is the Sinne of Schisme . 31 That imposing upon men under pain of Excommunication a necessity of professing known errours , and practising known corruptions , is a sufficient and necessary cause of separation : and that this is the cause which Protestants alleage to justifie their separation from the Church of Rome . 32 That to leave the Church , and to leave the externall Communion of a Church , at least as D. Potter understands the words , is not the same thing : That being done by ceasing to be a member of it , by ceasing to haue those requisites which constitute a man a member of it , as faith and obedience : This by refusing to communicate with any Church in her Liturgies and publike worship of God. This little Armour if it be rightly placed , I am perswaded , will repell all those Batteries which you threaten shall be so furious . 33 Ad § 13. 14. 15. The first is a sentence of S. Austine against Donatus , applied to Luther thus . If the Church perished , what Church brought forth Donatus , ( you say Luther ? ) If she could not perish , what madnesse moved the sect of Donatus to separate , upon pretence to avoid the Communion of bad men ? Whereunto , one faire answer ( to let passe many others ) is obvious out of the second observation : That this sentence though it were Gospell , as it is not , is impertinently applied to Luther and Lutherans . Whose pretence of separation ( be it true or be it false , ) was not ( as that of the Donatists , ) only to avoid the Communion of bad men : but to free themselves from a necessity ( which but by separating was unavoidable , ) of joyning with bad men in their impieties . And your not substituting Luther in stead of Donatus in the latter part of the Dilemma as well as in the former , would make a suspicious man conjecture that you your selfe took notice of this exception of disparitie between Donatus and Luther . 34 Ad § 16. Your second onset drives only at those Protestants , who hold the true Church was invisible for many ages . Which Doctrine ( if by the true Church be understood , the pure Church , as you doe understand it ) is a certain truth , and it is easier for you to declaime ( as you doe ) then to dispute against it . But these men you say must bee Heretiques because they separated from the Communion of the visible Church : and therefore also from the Communion of that which they say was invisible : In as much as the invisible Church communicated with the visible . 35 Ans. I might very justly desire some proofe of that which so confidently you take for granted : That , there were no persecuted and oppressed maintainers of the Truth in the daies of our Fore-fathers , but only such as dissembled their opinions , & lived in your Communion . And truly if I should say there were many of this condition , I suppose I could make my Affirmative much more probable , then you can make your Negatiue . We read in Scripture , that Elias conceived There was none left besides himselfe in the whole kingdome of Israell , who had not revolted from God : and yet God himselfe assures us that he was deceived . And if such a man , a Prophet , and one of the greatest , erred in his judgement touching his own time , and his own countrey , why may not you , who are certainly but a man , and subject to the same passions as Elias was , mistake in thinking , that in former ages , in some countrey or other , there were not alwaies some good Christians , which did not so much as externally bow their knees to your Baal ? But this answer I am content you shall take no notice of , and thinke it sufficient to tell you , that if it bee true , that this supposed invisible Church did hypocritically communicate with the visible Church , in her corruptions , then Protestants had cause , nay necessity , to forsake their Communion also , for otherwise they must haue joyn'd with thē in the practise of impieties : and seeing they had such cause to separate , they presume their separation cannot be schismaticall . 36 Yes , you reply , to forsake the externall Communion of them with whom they agree in faith , is the most formall & proper sin of Schisme . Ans. Very true , but I would fain know wherein . I would gladly be informed , whether I bee bound for feare of Schisme , to communicate with those that believe as I doe , only in lawfull things , or absolutely in every thing : whether I am to joyn with them in superstition and Idolatry , and not only in a common profession of the faith wherein we agree , but in a common dissimulation or abjuration of it . This is that which you would haue them do , or else , forsooth , they must be Schismatiques . But hereafter I pray remember , that there is no necessity of communicating even with true Beleevers in wicked actions . Nay , that there is a necessity herein to separate from them . And then I dare say , even you being their judge , the reasonablenesse of their cause to separate shall , according to my first observation , justifie their separation from being schismaticall . 37 Arg : But the property of Schisme according to D. Potter is to cut off from the hope of salvation , the Church from which it separates : And these Protestants haue this property , Therefore they are Schismatiques . 38 Ans. I deny the Syllogisme , it is no better then this : One Symptome of the Plague is a Feaver , But such a man hath a Feaver , Therefore he hath the Plague . The true conclusiō which issues out of these Premisses , should be this . Therefore he hath one Symptome of the plague . And so likewise in the former , therefore they haue one property or one quality of Schismatiques . And as in the former instance , The man that hath one signe of the plague , may by reason of the absence of other requisites , not haue the plague : So these Protestants may haue something of Schismatiques , and yet not be Schismatiques . A Tyrant sentencing a man to death for his pleasure , and a just judge that condemnes a malefactor , doe both sentence a man to death , and so for the matter doe both the same thing : yet the one does wickedly , the other justly . What 's the reason ? because the one hath cause , the other hath not . In like manner Schismatiques , either alwaies or generally denounce damnation to them from whom they separate . The same doe these Protestants , & yet are not Schismatiques . The Reason : because Schismatiques doe it , and doe it without cause , and Protestants haue cause for what they doe . The impieties of your Church , being , generally speaking , damnable , unlesse where they are excus'd by ignorance , and expiated at least by a generall repentance . In fine , though perhaps it may be true , that all Schismatiques doe so : yet universall affirmatiues are not converted , and therefore it followes not by any good Logick , that all that doe so , when there is just cause for it , must be Schismatiques . The cause in this matter of separation is all in all , and that for ought I see , you never think of . But if these rigid Protestants haue iust cause to cut off your Church from the hope of salvation : How can the milder sort allow hope of salvation to the Members of this Church ? Ans. Distinguish the quality of the Persons censur'd , and this seeming repugance of their censures will vanish into nothing . For your Church may be considered either in regard of those , in whom , either negligence , or pride , or worldly feare , or hopes , or some other voluntary sinne , is the cause of their ignorance , which I feare is the case of the generality of men amongst you : or in regard of those who owe their Errours from Truth , to want of capacity , or default of instruction ; either in respect of those that might know the truth and will not , or of those who would know the truth but ( all things considered ) cannot : In respect of those that haue eyes to see , and will not see , or those that would gladly see , but want eyes , or light . Consider the former sort of men , ( which your more rigid censurers seem especially to reflect upon , ) and the heaviest sentence will not be too heavy . Consider the latter , and the mildest will not be too milde . So that here is no difference but in words only , neither are you flattered by the one ; nor uncharitably censur'd by the other . 39 Your next blow is directed against the milder sort of Protestants , who you say involve themselves in the sinne of Schisme by communicating with those ( as you call them ) exterminating Spirits , whom you conceiue your selfe to have proved Schismatiques : And now load them further with the crime of Heresie . For , say you , if you held your selves obliged under pain of damnation , to forsake the Communion of the Roman Church by reason of her Errours , which yet you confesse were not fundamentall : shall it not be much more damnable , to liue in confraternity with these , who defend an Errour of the fayling of the Church , which in the Donatists you confesse to haue been properly Hereticall ? 40 Answ : You mistake in thinking that Protestants hold themselves obliged not to communicate with you , onely or principally by reason of your Errours and Corruption . For the true reason according to my third observation , is not so much because you maintaine Errours and Corruptions , as because you impose them : and will allow your Communion to none but to those that will hold them with you ; and haue so ordered your Communion , that either we must communicate with you in these things , or nothing . And for this very reason , though it were granted , that these Protestants held this doctrine which you impute to them ; And though this Errour were as damnable and as much against the Creed as you pretend : Yet after all this , this disparity between you and them , might make it more lawfull for us to communicate with them then you : because what they hold , they hold to themselues , and refuse not ( as you doe ) to communicate with them that hold the contrary . 41 Thus we may answer your Argument , though both your former Suppositions were granted . But then for a second answer , I am to tell you that there is no necessity of granting either of them . For neither doe these Protestants hold the fayling of the Church from its being , but only from its visibility : which if you conceive all one , then must you conceive that the starres fayle every day , and the Sunne every night . Neither is it certain that the doctrine of the Churches fayling is repugnant to the Creed . For as the truth of the Article of the Remission of sinnes , depends not upon the actuall remission of any mans sinnes , but upon Gods readinesse and resolution to forgive the sins of all that believe and repent ; so that , although unbeleef or impenitence should be universall , and the Faithfull should absolutely fayle from the children of men , and the sonne of man should finde no faith on the earth , yet should the Article still continue true , that God would forgive the sinnes of all that repent : In like manner , it is not certain that the truth of the Article of the Catholique Church depends upon the actuall existence of a Catholique Church , but rather upon the right , that the Church of Christ , or rather ( to speak properly ) the Gospell of Christ hath to be universally believed . And therefore the Article may bee true , though there were no Church in the world . In regard , this notwithstanding , it remaines still true that there ought to be a Church , & this Church ought to be Catholique . For as , of these two Propositions , There is a Church in America , and , There should bee a Church in America , The truth of the latter depends not upon the truth of the former , so neither does it in these two : There is a Church diffused all the world over , and , There should be a Church diffused all the world over . 42 Thirdly , if you understand by Errours not fundamentall , such as are not damnable , it is not true , as I haue often told you , that we confesse your errours not fundamentall . 43 Lastly , for your desire that I should here apply an authority of S. Cyprian alleaged in your next number , I would haue done so very willingly , but indeed I know not how to doe it : for in my apprehensiō it hath no more to doe with your present businesse of proving it unlawfull , to communicate with these men , who hold the Church was not alwaies visible , then In nova fert animus . Besides , I am here again to remember you , that S. Cyprians words , were they never so pertinent yet are by neither of the parts litigant esteemed any rule of faith . And therefore the urging of them and such like authorities , serves onely to make Books great , and Controversies endlesse . 44 Ad § 17. The next Section in three long leaues delivers us this short sense . That those Protestants which say they have not left the Churches externall Communion , but only her corruptions pretend to doe that which is impossible . Because these corruptions were inherent in the Churches externall Communion : and therefore he that forsakes them cannot but forsake this . 45 Ans. But who are they that pretend , they forsooke the Churches corruptions , and not her externall communion ? Some there be that say , they have not left the Church , that is , not ceased to be members of the Church , but only left her corruptions : some , that they have not left the communion , but the corruptions of it ; meaning the internall communion of it , and conjunction with it by faith and obedience : which disagree from the former only in the manner of speaking : for he that is in the Church , is in this kinde of communion with it : and he that is not in this internall communion , is not in the Church . Some perhaps , that they left not your externall communion in all things ; meaning , that they left it not voluntarily being not fugitivi but fugati , as being willing to joyne with you in any act of piety ; but were by you necessitated and constrained to doe so , because you would not suffer them to doe well with you , unlesse they would doe ill with you . Now to doe ill that you may doe well , is against the will of God , which to every good man is a high degree of necessity . But for such Protestants , as pretend that de facto , they forsook your corruptions only and not your externall communion , that is , such as pretend to communicate with you in your confessions and Liturgies , and participation of Sacraments , I cannot but doubt very much , that neither you nor I have ever met with any of this condition . And if perhaps you were led into error , by thinking that to leave the Church , and to leave the externall communion of it , was all one in sense & signification , I hope by this time you are disabus'd , and beginne to understand , that as a man may leave any fashion or custome of a Colledge , and yet remain still a member of the Colledge ; so a man may possibly leave some opinion or practise of a Church formerly common to himselfe & others , and continue still a member of that Church : Provided that what he forsakes be not one of those things wherein the essence of the Church consists . Whereas peradventure this practise may be so involved with the externall communion of this Church , that it may be simply impossible , for him to leave this practise , and not to leave the Churches externall communion . 46 You will reply perhaps , That the difficulty lies as well against those who pretend to forsake the Churches corruptions & not the Church : as against those who say , they forsook the Churches corruptions , and not her externall communion . And that the reason is still the same : because these supposed corruptions , were inherent in the whole Church , and therefore by like reason with the former , could not be forsaken , but if the whole Church were forsaken . 47 Ans. A pretty Sophisme , and very fit to perswade men that it is impossible for them , to forsake any error they hold , or any vice they are subject to , either peculiar to themselves , or in common with others : Because forsooth , they cannot forsake themselves , and Vices and Errors are things inherent in themselves . The deceit lies , in not distinguishing between a Locall and a Morall forsaking of any thing . For as it were an absurdity , fit for the maintainers of Transubstantiation to defend , that a man may Locally and properly depart from the Accidents of a subject , and not from the subject it selfe : So is it also against reason to deny , that a man may ( by an usuall phrase of speech ) forsake any custome , or quality , good or bad , either proper to himself , or common to himselfe with any company , and yet never truly or properly forsake either his company or himselfe . Thus if all the Iesuits in the Society , were given to write Sophistically , yet you might leave this ill custome , and yet not leave your Society . If all the Citizens of a City , were addicted to any vanity , they might either , all , or some of them forsake it , and yet not forsake the city . If all the parts of a mans body were dirty or filthy , nothing hinders but that all or some of them might clense themselves , and yet continue parts of the body . And what reason then in the world is there , if the whole Visible Church were overcome with tares and weeds of superstitions , and corruptions , but that some members of it might reforme themselves , and yet continue still true members of the body of the Church , and not be made no members , but the better by their Reformation ? Certainly it is so obvious & sensible a Truth , that this thing is possible , that no man in his wits , will be perswaded out of it , with all the Quirks and Metaphysicks in the World. Neither is this to say , that a man may keep company with Christopher Potter , and not keep company with the Provost of Q. Colledge : Nor that a man can avoid the company of a sinner , and at the same time , be really present with the man who is the sinner : which we leave to those Protestants of your invention , who are so foolish , as to pretend , that a man , may really separate himselfe from the Churches externall communion , as she is corrupted , and yet continue in that Churches externall Communion , which in this externall Communion is corrupted . But we that say only the whole Church being corrupted , some parts of it might and did reforme themselves , and yet might and did continue parts of the Church , though separated from the externall communion of the other parts , which would not reforme , need not trouble our selves to reconcile any such repugnance . For the case put by you , of keeping D. Potters company , and leaving the company of the Provost of Queens Colledge ; & of leaving a sinners company , and not the mans : are nothing at all like ours . But if you would speak to the point , you must shew , that D. Potter cannot leave being Provost of Q. Colledge , without ceasing to be himselfe : or , that a sinner cannot leave his sinne , without ceasing to be a man : or that he that is part of any society , cannot renounce any Vice of that society , but he must relinquish the society . If you would shew any of these things , then indeed ( I dare promise ) you should find us apt enough to believe , that the particular parts of the visible Church , could not reforme themselves , but they must of necessity become no parts of it . But untill we see this done , you must pardon us , if we choose to believe sense rather then Sophistry . 48 In this Paragraph you bring in the sentence of S. Cyprian , whereto you refer'd us in the former : but why in a cōtroversy of faith , doe you cite any thing , which is confessed on all hands , not to be a rule of faith ? Besides , in my apprehension , this sentence of S. Cyprian , is in this place , and to this purpose , meerely impertinent . S. Cyprians words are , The Church ( he speaks of the particular Church , or Diocesse of Rome ) being one , cannot be within and without : If she be with Novatianus , she was not with Cornelius : But if she were with Cornelius who succeeded Fabianus by lawfull Ordination , Novatianus is not in the Church . And now having related the words , I am only to remember the Reader , that your businesse was to prove it impossible , For a man to forsake the Churches corruptions and not the Church , and then to request him to tell me whether , as I said , In nova fert animus , had not been as much to the purpose ? 49 Toward the conclusion of this Section , you number up your Victories , and tell us , That out of your discourse it remaineth cleere , that this our chiefest Answer changeth the very state of the Question : confoundeth internall Acts of the under standing , with externoll deeds : doth not distinguish between Schisme and Heresy , and leaves this demonstrated against us , that they ( Protestants ) divided themselves from the communion of the Visible Catholique Church , because they conceived that she needed Reformation . To which Triumphs , if any reply be needfull , then briefly thus : We doe not change the state of the Question , but you mistake it . For the Question was not whether they might forsake the corruptions of the Church , and continue in her externall communion , which we confesse impossible , because these corruptions were in her communion . But the Question was , whether they might forsake the corruptions of the Church , and not the Church , but continue still the Members of it . And to this Question , there is not in your whole discourse one pertinent syllable . 50 We doe not confound internall Acts of understanding with externall deeds , but acknowledge ( as you would have us ) that we cannot ( as matters now stand ) separate from your corruptions , but we must depart from your Externall communion . For you have so ordered things , that whosoever will Communicate with you at all , must communicate with you , in your corruptions . But it is you that will not perceive the difference , between , being a part of the Church , and being in externall Communion with all the other parts of it : taking for granted , that which is certainly false , that no two men or Churches , divided in externall communion , can be both true parts of the Catholique Church . 51 We are not to learn the difference between Schisme & Heresy , for Heresy we conceive , an obstinate defence of any Errour , against any necessary Article of the Christian faith : And Schisme , a causelesse separation of one part of the Church from another . But this we say , That if we convince you of errors and corruptions , professed and practised in your Communion , then we cannot be Schismatiques , for refusing to joyne with you in the profession of these Errors , and the practise of these corruptions . And therefore you must free your selves from Error , or us from Schisme . 52 Lastly , whereas you say , That you have demonstrated against us , that Protestants divided themselves from the externall communion of the Visible Church , adde , which externall communion was corrupted , and we shall confesse the accusation , and glory in it . But this is not that Quod erat demonstrandum , but that we divided our selves from the Church , that is , made ourselves out-lawes from it , and no members of it . And moreover , in the Reason of your separation from the externall communion of your Church you are mistaken : for it was not so much because she , your Church , as because your Churches externall communion was corrupted , and needed Reformation . 53 That a pretence of Reformation will acquit no man from Schisme , we grant very willingly , and therefore say , that it concernes every man who separates from any Churches communion , even as much as his Salvation is worth , to looke most carefully to it , that the cause of his separation be just and necessary : For unlesse it be necessary , it can very hardly be sufficient . But whether a true Reformation of our selves from Errors , superstitions and impieties , will not justify our separation in these things ; our separation , I say , from them who will not reforme themselves , and as much as in them lies , hinder others from doing so : This is the point you should have spoken to , but have not . As for the sentences of the Fathers to which you referre us , for the determination of this Question , I suppose by what I have said above , the Reader understands , by alleaging them you have gain'd little credit to your cause or person . And that , if they were competent Iudges of this controversy , their sentence is against you much rather then for you . 54 Lastly , whereas you desire D. Potter to remember his own words : There neither was nor can be any just cause to depart from the Church of Christ , no more then from Christ himselfe , and pretend that you have shewed that Luther did so : The Doctor remembers his words very well , and hath no reason to be ashamed of them . Only he desires you to remember that hereafter you doe not confound , as hitherto you have done , departing from the Church ( i. e. ceasing to be a member of it , ) with departing from the Churches externall communion ; and then he is perswaded it will appeare to you , that against Luther and his followers you have said many things , but shewed nothing . 55 But the Church Vniversall , remaining the Church Vniversall , according to D. Potter may fall into error : And from hence it cleerely followes , that it is impossible to leave the externall communion of the Church so corrupted , and retain externall communion with the Catholique Church . Ans. The reason of this consequence which you say is so cleere , truly I cannot possibly discern ; But the conclusion inferr'd , methinkes is evident of it selfe , and therefore without proofe I grant it . I meane , that it is impossible to leave the externall communion of the Catholique Church corrupted , and to retain externall communion with the Catholique Church . But what use you can make of it , I doe not understand : Vnlesse you will pretend , that to say a man may forsake the Churches corruptions , and not the Church , is all one as to say , he may forsake the Churches externall Communion and not forsake it . If you mean so , sure you mistake the meaning of Protestants when they say , They forsook not the Church but her corruptions ▪ For in saying so , they neither affirme , nor deny that they forsooke the externall communion of the Church , nor speake at all of it : But they mean only , that they ceased not to be still members of the Church , though they ceased to believe and practise some things which the whole Church formerly did believe and practise . And as for the externall Communion of the Visible Church , we have without scruple formerly granted , that Protestants did forsake it , that is , renounce the practise of some observances , in which the whole visible Church before thē did communicate . But this we say they did without Schisme , because they had cause to do so , and no man can have cause to be a Schismatique . 56 But your Argument you conceive , will bee more convincing , if we consider that when Luther appeared , there were not two distinct Visible true Churches , one Pure , the other Corrupted , but one Church only . Ans. The ground of this is no way certain , nor here sufficiently proved . For , whereas you say , Histories are silent of any such matter ; I answer , there is no necessity , that you or I should have read all Histories , that may be extant of this matter ; nor that all should be extant that were written , much lesse extant uncorrupted : especially considering your Church , which had lately all power in her hands , hath been so pernitiously industrious , in corrupting the monuments of Antiquity that made against her ; nor that all Records should remain which were written ; nor that all should be recorded which was done . Neither secondly , to suppose a Visible Church before Luther , which did not erre , is it to contradict this ground of D. Potters , that the Church may erre . Vnlesse you will have us believe , that May be , and Must be is all one , and that all which may be true , is true : which rule if it were true , then sure all men would be honest , because all men may be so , and you would not make so bad Arguments , unlesse you will pretend you cannot make better . Nor thirdly , is it to contradict these words , The Church may not hope to triumph over all error , till she be in Heaven : For to triumph over error , is to be secure from it , to be out of danger of it , not to be obnoxious to it . Now a Church may be free from error , and yet not secure from it , and consequently in this sense , not triumph over it . Fourthly , whereas you say , it evacuateth the bragge of Protestants , that Luther reformed the whole Church ; perhaps ( though I know not who they be that say so ; ) by a frequent synecdoche , they may mean by the whole , the greatest , and most illustrious part of it , the lustre whereof did much obscure the other , though it were not wholly invisible . Besides , if their bragge be evacuated , ( as you call it ) let it be so , I see no harme will come of it . Lastly whereas you say , that supposing a visible pure Church , Luther must be a Schismatique , who separated from all visible Churches : I tell you , if you will suppose a visible Church extant before and when Luther arose , conformable to him in all points of Doctrine , necessary and profitable , then Luther separated not from this Church , but adjoyned himselfe to it : Not indeed in place , wich was not necessary , not in externall communion which was impossible , but by the Vnion of faith and charity . Vpon these grounds I say , that the ground of this Argument is no way made certaine , yet because it is not manifestly false , I am content to let it passe . And for ought I see , it is very safe for me to doe so : for you build nothing upon it , which I may not fairely grant . For what doe you conclude from hence , but that seeing there was no Visible Church but corrupted , Luther forsaking the externall communion of the corrupted Church , could not but forsake the externall communion of the Catholique Church ? Well , let this also be granted , what will come of it ? What , that Luther must be a Schismatique ? By no meanes : For not every separation , but only a causeles separation from the communion of the Church we maintain to be Schismaticall . Hereunto may be added , that though the whole Church were corrupted , yet properly speaking , it is not true , that Luther & his Followers forsook the whole corrupted Church , or the externall communion of it : But only that he forsook that Part of it which was corrupted , and still would be so , and forsook not , but only reformed another Part , which Part they themselves were , and I suppose you will not goe about to perswade us , that they forsook themselves or their own communion . And if you urge that they joyned themselves to no other part , therefore they separated from the whole : I say it followes not , in as much as themselves were a part of it , and still continued so : and therefore could no more separate from the whole then from themselves . Thus though there were no part of the people of Rome , to whom the Plebeians joyned themselves , when they made their Secession into the Aventine Hill , yet they divided themselves from the Patricians only , and not from the whole people , because themselves were a part of this people , and they divided not from themselves . 57 Ad § . 18. In the 18. § . you prove that which no man denies , that corruption in manners yeelds no sufficient cause to leave the Church : yet sure it yeelds sufficient cause to cast them out of the Church , that are after the Churches publique admonition obstinate in notorious impieties . Neither doth the cutting off such men from the Church , lay any necessity upon us , either to goe out of the world , or out of the Church , but rather puts these men out of the Church into the world , where we may converse with them freely , without scandall to the Church . Our Blessed Saviour foretold , you say , that there should be in the Church tares with choice corne . Look again I pray , and you shall see , that the field he speaks of , is not the Church , but the world : and therefore neither doe You obey our Saviours command , Let both grow up till the harvest , who teach it to be lawfull to roote these tares ( such are Heretiques ) out of the world : neither doe Protestants disobey it , if they eject manifest Heresies and notorious sinners out of the Church . 58 Ad § . 19. in the 19. you are so curteous as to suppose corruptions in your doctrine , and yet undertake to prove that , neither could they afford us any sufficient cause , or colourable necessity to depart from them . Your reason is , because damnable errors there were none in your Church , by D. Potters confession , neither can it be damnable in respect of errour , to remain in any Churches communion , whose errors are not damnable . For if the error be not damnable , the belief thereof cannot . Ans. D. Potter confesseth no such matter : but only that he hopes that your errors , though in themselves sufficiently damnable , yet by accident did not damne all that held them : such he meanes and saies , as were excusably ignorant of the Truth , and amongst the number of their unknown sinnes , repented daily of their unknown errors . The truth is , he thinks as ill of your errors and their desert , as you doe of ours : only he is not so peremptory and presumptuous in judging your persons , as you are in judging ours , but leaves them to stand or fall to their own Master , who is infinitely mercifull , and therefore will not damne them for meere errors , who desire to find the truth and cannot : and withall infinitely just , and therefore ( is it to be feared ) will not pardon them , who might easily have come to the knowledge of the truth , and either through Pride , or obstinacy , or negligence would not . 59 To your minor also , I answer almost in your own words , § . 42. of this Chap. I thank you for your curteous supposall , that your Church may erre , and in recompence thereof , will doe you a charity , by putting you in mind , into what Labyrinths you cast your selfe , by supposing that the Church may erre in some of her Proposalls , and yet denying it lawfull for any man though he know this , which you suppose , to oppose her judgement , or leave her communion . Will you have such a man dissemble against his conscience , or externally deny that which he knowes true ? No , that you will not , for them that doe so , you your selfe have pronounced A. damned Cr●w of dissembling Sycophants . Or would you have him continue in your Communion , and yet professe your Church to erre ? This you your selves have made to him impossible . Or would you have him beleeve those things true , which together with him you have supposed to be Errors ? This in such a one , as is assur'd or perswaded of that , which you here suppose , that your Church doth erre , ( and such only we say , are obliged to forsake your communion , ) is , as Schoolemen speak , Implicatio in terminis , a contradiction so plain , that one word destroieth another ; as if one should say , a living dead man. For it is to require that they which believe some part of your Doctrine false , should withall believe it all true . Seeing therefore , for any man to believe your Church in error , and professe the contrary , is damnable Hypocrisie ; to believe it and not believe it , a manifest repugnancy ; and thirdly , to professe it and to continue in your Communion ( as matters now stand ) a plain impossibility ; what remaines , but that whosoever is supposed to have just reason to disbelieve any doctrine of your Church , must of necessity forsake her Communion ? Vnlesse you would remit so farre from your present rigour , as to allow them your Churches communion , who publiquely professe that they doe not believe every article of her established Doctrine . Indeed , if you would doe so , you might with some coherence suppose your Church in error , and yet finde fault with men for abandoning her communion , because they might continue in it , and suppose her in error . But to suppose your Church in error , and to excommunicate all those that believe your own supposition , and then to complain that they continue not in your communion , is the most ridiculous incongruity that can be imagined . And therefore though your corruptions in doctrine , in themselves ( which yet is false ) did not , yet your obliging us , to professe your doctrine uncorrupted against knowledge and conscience , may induce an obligation to depart from your communion . As if there were any society of Christians , that held there were no Antipodes ; notwithstanding this error I might communicate with them . But if I could not doe so , without professing my selfe of their beleefe in this matter , then I suppose I should be excus'd from Schisme , if I should forsake their communion , rather then professe my selfe to believe that which I doe not believe . Neither is there any contradiction , or shadow of contradiction , that it may be necessary for my Salvation to depart from this Churches communion : And that this Church ( though erring in this matter ) wants nothing necessary to Salvation . And yet this is that manifest contradiction , which D. Potter ( you say ) will never be able to salve , viz. That there might be necessary cause to depart from the Church of Rome in some Doctrines and practices , though she wanted nothing necessary to Salvation . 60 And your Reason wherewith you prove , that there is in these words such a plain contradiction , is very notable . For ( say you ) if she wanted nothing necessary to Salvation , how could it be necessary to Salvation to forsake her ? Truly Sir , if this be a good manner of proving , it is a very ready way to prove any thing ; for what is there that may not be proved , if it be proofe enough to aske how it can be otherwise ? Me thinkes if you would convince , D. Potter's words of manifest contradiction , you should shew , that he affirmes and denies the same of the same . From which fault me thinkes he should be very innocent , who saies only , that that may be damnable to one , which is not so to another : and that may be necessary for one , which is not necessary for another . And this is all that D. Potter saies here : viz. That the profession of a falsehood to him that believes it , may be not damnable : and yet damnable to him that believes the contrary . Or that , not to professe a falsehood in him that knowes it to be so , is necessary to Salvation : and yet not so , in him that by error conceives it to be a truth . The words by you cited , and charged with unsalvable contradiction are in the 75. pag. But in the progresse of the same particular discourse , in the next page but one , he gives such evident reason of them , ( which can hardly be done to prove implicancy true ) that whereas you say , he will never be able to salve them from contradiction , I believe any indifferent reader , having considered the place , will be very apt to think , that you ( whatsoever you pretend ) were very able to have done this curtesy for him , if your will had been answerable to your ability . I will set down the words , and leave the Reader to condemne or absolve them . To forsake the errors of that Church , and not to joyne with her in those practices which we account erroneous , wee are enforced by necessity . For though in the issue they are not damnable to them which belieue as they professe , yet for us to professe & avow by oath ( as the Church of Rome enioynes ) what we belieue not , were without question damnable . And they with their errours , by the grace of God might goe to Heaven , when we for our hypocrisie and dissimulation ( he might haue added , and Perjury ) should certainly be condemned to Hell. 61 Ad § 20. But a Church not erring in Fundamentalls , though erring in other matters , doth what our Saviour exacts at her hands , doth as much as lies in her power to doe : Therefore the Communion of such a Church is not upon pretence of Errour to be forsaken . The consequence is manifest . The Antecedent is proved , because God , by D. Potters confession , hath promised his assistance no further , nor is it in her power to doe more then God doth assist her to doe . Ans. The promise of Divine Assistance is two fold : Absolute , or Conditionall . That there shall be by Divine providence preseru'd in the world to the worlds end , such a company of Christians , who hold all things precisely and indispensably necessary to salvation , and nothing inevitably destructive of it : This and no more the Doctor affirmes that God hath promised absolutely . Yet he neither doubts nor denies , but that a farther assistance is conditionally promised us , even such an assistance as shall lead us , if we be not wanting to it and our selves , into all not only necessary , but very profitable truth , and guard us from all not only destructive , but also hurtfull Errours . This , I say , he neither denies nor questions . And should he haue done so , hee might haue been confuted by evident and expresse Text of Scripture . When therefore you say , That a Church not erring in Fundamentalls , doth as much as by Gods assistance lies in her power to doe ; This is manifestly untrue . For Gods assistance is alwaies ready to promote her farther . It is ready , I say , but on condition the Church does implore it : on condition , that when it is offered in the divine directions of Scripture and reason , the Church be not negligent to follow it . If therefore there be any Church , which retaining the foundation , builds hay and stubble upon it : which believing what is precisely necessary , erres shamefully and dangerously in other things very profitable : This by no meanes argues defect of divine assistance in God , but neglect of this assistance in the Church . Neither is there any reason , why such a Church should please her selfe too much , for retaining Fundamentall truths , while shee remaines so regardlesse of others . For though the simple defect of some truths profitable onely and not simply necessary , may consist with salvation ; Yet who is there that can giue her sufficient assurance , that the neglect of such truths is not damnable ? Besides , who is there that can put her in sufficient caution , that these Errours about profitable matters may not according to the usuall fecunditie of errour , bring forth others of a higher qualitie , such as are pernicious and pestilent , and undermine by secret consequences the very foundations of Religion and piety ? Lastly , who can say that she hath sufficiently discharged her duty to God and man by avoiding only Fundamentall Heresies , if in the mean time shee bee negligent of others , which though they doe not plainly destroy salvation , yet obscure and hinder , and only not block up the way to it ? Which though of themselves and immediatly they damne no man , yet are causes and occasions that many men run the race of Christian piety more remisly then they should , many defer their repentance , many goe on securely in their sinnes , & so at length are damn'd by means and occasion of these Errours , though not for them . Such Errours as these ( though those of the Roman Church be much worse , even in themselves damnable , and by accident only pardonable ) yet I say such Errours as these , if any Church should tolerate , dissemble and suffer them to raign , and neglect to reforme them , and not permit them to be freely , yet peaceably , opposed and impugned ; will any wise man say , that she hath sufficiently discharged her duty to God and man ? That shee hath with due fidelity dispensed the Gospell of Christ ? That shee hath done what she could , and what she ought ? What shall we say then , if these errours be taught by her , and commanded to be taught ? What if she thunder out her curses against those that will not belieue them ? What if she rave and rage against them , and persecute them with fire & sword , and all kinds of most exquisite torments ? Truly I doe much feare , that frō such a Church ( though it hold no errour absolutely unconsistent with salvation , ) the candlestick of God , either is already removed , or will be very shortly , and because she is negligent of profitable truths , that she will lose those that are Necessary , and because she will not be led into all truths , that in short time shee shall bee led into none . And although this should not happen , yet what mortall man can secure us , that not only a probable unaffected ignorance , nor onely a meere neglect of profitable truths , but also a retchlesse supine negligence , manifest contempt , Dissimulation , Opposition , Oppression of them , may consist with salvation ? I truly for my part , though I hope very well of all such as seeking all truth , finde that which is necessary ; who endeavouring to free themselves from all Errours , any way contrary to the purity of Christianity , yet fayle of performance & remain in some : yet if I did not finde in my selfe a loue and desire of all profitable truth ; If I did not put away idlenesse , and prejudice , and worldly affections , and so examine to the bottome all my opinions of divine matters , being prepar'd in minde to follow God , and God only which way soever he shall lead me ; If I did not hope , that I either doe , or endeavour to doe these things , certainly I should haue little hope of obtaining salvation . 62 But to oblige any man under pain of damnation to forsake a Church by reason of such errours , against which Christ thought it superfluous to promise his assistance , and for which he neither denies his grace here , nor his glory hereafter , what is it but to make the narrow way to heaven , narrower then Christ left it ? Ans. It is not : For Christ himselfe hath obliged us hereunto : He hath forbad us under pain of damnation to professe what we belieue not , & consequently under the same penalty , to leaue that Communion , in which we cannot remain without this hypocriticall profession of those things , which we are convinc'd to be erroneous . But then besides , it is here falsely supposed , ( as hath been shewed already ) that Christ hath not promised assistance to those that seeke it , but only in matters simply necessary . Neither is there any reason , why any Church , even in this world , should despair of victory over all errors pernitious or noxious ; provided she humbly and earnestly implore divine assistance , depend wholy upon it , and be not wanting to it . Though a Triumph over all sinne and error , that is , security that she neither doth nor can erre , be rather to be desired then hoped for on earth , being a felicity reserved for heaven . 63 Ad § . 21. But at least the Roman Church is as infallible as Protestants , and Protestants as fallible as the Roman Church : therefore to forsake the Roman Church for errors , what is it but to flit from one erring Society to another ? Ans. The inconsequence of this Argument is too apparent : Protestants may erre as well as the Church of Rome , therefore they did so ! Boyes in the Schooles know , that a Posse ad Esse , the Argument followes not . He is equally fallible who believes twise two to be foure , as he that believes them to be twenty : yet in this , he is not equally deceived , and he may be certain that he is not so . One Architect is no more infallible then another , and yet he is more secure that his work is right and streight who hath made it by the levell , then he which hath made it by guesse and by chance . So he that forsakes the errors of the Church of Rome , and therefore renounceth her communion , that he may renounce the profession of her errors , though he knowes himselfe fallible , as well as those whom he hath forsaken , yet he may be certain ( as certain as the nature of the thing will beare ) that he is not herein deceived : because he may see the Doctrine forsaken by him repugnant to Scripture , and the doctrine embraced by him consonant to it . At least , this he may know , that the doctrine which he hath chosen to him seemes true , and the contrary which he hath forsaken , seemes false : And therefore without remorse of conscience , he may professe that , but this he cannot . 64 But we are to remember , that according to D. Potter the visible Church hath a blessing not to erre in Fundamentalls , in which any private Reformer may faile , therefore there● was no necessity of forsaking the Church , out of whose communion they were exposed to danger of falling into many more , and even into damnable errors . Ans. The visible Church is free indeed from all errors absolutely destructive and unpardonable , but not from all errour which in it selfe is damnable : not from all which will actually bring damnation upon them , that keep themselves in them , by their own voluntary and avoidable fault . From such errors which are thus damnable D. Potter doth no where say , that the visible Church hath any priviledge or exemption . Nay you your selfe teach , that he plainly teacheth the contrary , and thereupon will allow him to be no more charitable to Papists , then Papists are to Protestants : and yet upon this affected mistake your discourse is founded in almost forty places of your Book . Besides , any private man who truly believes the Scripture , and seriously endeavours to know the will of God , and to doe it , is as secure as the visible Church , more secure then your Church from the danger of erring in fundamentalls : for it is impossible , that any man so qualified should fall into any error which to him will prove damnable . For God requires no more of any man to his Salvation , but his true endeavour to be saved . Lastly , abiding in your Churches Communion is so farre from securing me or any man from damnable error , that if I should abide in it , I am certain I could not be saved . For abide in it I cannot , without professing to believe your entire doctrine true : professe this I cannot , but I must lye perpetually , and exulcerate my conscience . And though your errors were not in themselves damnable , yet to resist the known Truth , and to continue in the profession of known errors and false . hoods , is certainly a capitall sinne , and of great affinity with the sinne which shall never be forgiven . 95 But neither is the Church of Protestants perfectly free from errors and corruptions : so the Doctor confesses p. 69. which he can only excuse , by saying , they are not fundamentall , as likewise those in the Roman Church , are confessed not to be fundamentall . And what man of Iudgement will be a Protestant , since that Church is confessedly a corrupted one ? Ans. And yet you your selfe make large discourses in this very Chapter , to perswade Protestants to continue in the Church of Rome , though supposed to have some corruptions . And why I pray , may not a man of judgement continue in the Communion of a Church confessedly corrupted , as well as in a Church supposed to be corrupted ? Especially when this Church supposed to be corrupted , requires the beliefe and profession of her supposed corruptions , as the condition of her Communion : which this Church confessedly corrupted , doth not . What man of judgement will think it any disparagement , to his judgement to preferre the better , though not simply the best , before that which is starke naught ? To preferre indifferent good health , before a diseased and corrupted state of Body ? To preferre a field not perfectly weeded , before a field that is quite over-runne with weeds and thornes ? And therefore though Protestants have some Errors , yet seeing they are neither so great as yours , nor impos'd with such tyranny , nor maintained with such obstinacy ; he that conceives it any disparagement to his judgement , to change your Communion for theirs , though confessed to have some corruptions , it may well be presum'd that he hath but little judgement . For , as for your pretence that yours are confessed not to be fundamentall , it is an affected mistake , as already I have often told you . 66 Ad § . 22. But D. Potter saies it is comfort enough for the Church , that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers : but she may not hope to triumph over all sinne and error , till she be in heaven . Now if it be comfort enough , to be secur'd from all capitall dangers , which can arise only from error in fundamentall points , Why were not our first Reformers content with enough , but would needs dismember the Church , out of apernitious greedinesse of more then enough ? Ans. I have already shewed sufficiently , how capitall danger may arise from errors , though not fundamentall . I adde now , that what may be enough for men in ignorance , may be to knowing men not enough : according to that of the Gospell , to whom much is given , of him much shall be required : That the same error may be not capitall to those who want meanes of finding the truth , and capitall to others who have meanes , and neglect to use them : That to continue in the profession of error discovered to be so , may be damnable , though the error be not so . These I presume are reasons enough , and enough why the first Reformers might think ; and justly , that not enough for themselves , which yet to some of their Predecessors they hope might be enough . This very Argument was objected to a S. Cyprian upon another occasion , and also by the b British Quartodecimans , to the maintainers of the Doctrine of your Church ; and c by both this very answer was returned ; and therefore I cannot but hope that for their sakes you will approve it . 67 But if ( as the Doctor saies ) no Church may hope to triumph over all error ti● she be in heaven , then we must either grant , that errors not fundamentall cannot yeeld sufficient cause to forsake the Church , or you must affirme that all Communities may and ought to be forsaken . Answ. The Doctor does not say , that no Church may hope to be free from all error , either pernitious , or any way noxious : But that no Church may hope to be secure from all error simply , for this were indeed truly totriumph over all . But then we say not , that the communion of any Church is to be forsaken for errors unfundamentall , unlesse it exact withall either a dissimulation of the being noxious ; or a Profession of them against the dictate of conscience , if they be meere errors . This if the Church does ( as certainly yours doth , ) then her communion is to be forsaken , rather then the sinne of hypocrisy to be committed . Whereas to forsake the Churches of Protestants for such errors , there is no necessity , because they erre to themselves , & doe not under pain of Excommunication exact the profession of their errors . 68 But the Church may not be left by reason of sinne , therefore neither by reason of errors not fundamentall : in as much as both sinne and error are impossible to be avoided till she be in heaven . Ans. The reason of the consequence does not appear to mee : But I answer to the Antecedent : Neither for sinne nor errors , ought a Church to be forsaken , if she does not impose and injoyne them : but if she doe , ( as the Roman does , ) then we must forsake men rather then God ; leave the Churches communion rather then commit sinne , or professe known errors , to be divine truths . For the Prophet EZechiel hath assured us , that to say , the Lord hath said so , when the Lord hath not said so , is a great sinne , and a high presumption , be the matter never so small . 69 Ad § . 23. But neither the Quality nor the number of your Churches errors , could warrant our forsaking of it . Not the Quality , because we suppose them not Fundamentall . Not the number , because the foundation is strong enough to support them . Ans. Here againe you vainely suppose , that we conceive your errors in themselves not damnable : Though we hope they are not absolutely unpardonable : but to say they are pardonable , is indeed to suppose them damnable . Secondly , though the errors of your Church did not warrant our departure , yet your Tyrannous imposition of them , would be our sufficient justification . For this laies necessity on us , either to forsake your company , or to professe what we know to be false . 70 Our Blessed Saviour hath declared his will , that we forgive a private offender seventy seven times , that is , without limitation of quantity of time , or quality of Trespasses ; and thou how dare we alleage his command , that we must not pardon his Church for errors acknowledged to be not fundamentall ? Ans. He that commands us to pardon our Brother sinning against us so often , will not allow us for his sake to sinne with him , so much as once . He will have us doe any thing but sinne , rather then offend any man. But his will is also , that we offend all the World , rather then sinne in the least matter . And therefore though his will were , and it were in our power ( which yet is false ) to pardon the errors of an erring Church ; yet certainly it is not his will , that we should erre with the Church , or if we doe not , that we should against conscience professe the errors of it . 71 Ad § . 24. But Schismatiques from the Church of England or any other Church , with this very Answer , that they forsake not the Church but the errors of it , may cast off from themselves the imputation of Schisme . Ans. True , they may make the same Answer , and the same defence as we doe , as a murtherer can cry not guilty , as well as an innocent person , but not so truly nor so justly . The question is , not what may be pretended , but what can bee proved by Schismatiques . They may object errors to other Churches , as well as we doe to yours , but that they prove their accusation so strongly as we can , that appeares not . To the Priests and elders of the Iewes , imposing that sacred silence mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles , S. Peter and S. Iohn answered they must obey God rather then men . The three Children to the King of Babylon , gave in effect the same answer . Give me now any factious Hypocrite , who makes religion the pretence and cloke of his Rebellion , and who sees not that such a one may answer for himselfe , in those very formall words , which the holy Apostles and Martyrs made use of . And yet I presume no Christian will deny , but this answer was good , in the mouth of the Apostles and Martyrs , though it were obnoxious to be abused , by Traitors and Rebels . Certainly therefore , it is no good consequence to say , Schismatiques may make use of this Answer , therefore all that doe make use of it are Schismatiques . But moreover , it is to be observed , that the chiefe part of our defence , that you deny your communion to all that deny or doubt of any part of your doctrine , cannot with any colour be imployed against Protestants : who grant their Communion to all who hold with them , not all things , but things necessary , that is , such as are in Scripture plainly delivered . 72 But the forsaking the Roman Church opens a way to innumerable Sects and Schismes , and therefore it must not be forsaken . Ans. We must not doe evill to avoid evill : neither are all courses presently lawfull , by which inconveniences may be avoided . If all men would submit themselves to the chiefe Mufty of the Turkes , it is apparent , there would be no divisions ; yet unity is not to be purchased at so deare a rate . It were a thing much to be desired , that there were no divisions : yet difference of opinions touching points controverted , is rather to be chosen , then unanimous concord in damned errors : As it is better for men to goe to heaven by diverse waies , or rather by divers paths of the same way , then in the same path to goe on peaceably to hell . Amica Pax , magis amica Veritas ! 73 But there can be no iust cause to forsake the Church , so the Doctor grants : who notwithstanding teacheth that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall ; therefore neither is the Roman Church to be forsaken for such errors . Ans. There can be no just cause to forsake the Church absolutely and simply in all things , that is , to cease being a member of the Church : This I grant , if it will doe you any service . But that there can be no just cause to forsake the Church in some things , or ( to speak more properly ) to forsake some opinions and practices , which some true Church retaines and defends ; this I deny , and you mistake the Doctor if you think he affirmes it . 74 Ad § 26. 27. What prodigious doctrines ( say you ) are these ? Those Protestants who belieue that your Church erred in points necessary to salvation , and for that cause left her , cannot be excused from damnable Schisme : But others , &c. Prodigious doctrines indeed ! But who I pray are they that teach them ? Where does D. Potter accuse those Protestants of damnable Schisme , who left your Church because they hold it erroneous in necessary points ? What Protestant is there that holds not that you taught things contrary to the plaine precepts of Christ ; both Ceremoniall , in mutilating the Communion ; and Morall , in points of superstition & Idolatry , and most bloody tyranny ? which is without question to erre in necessary matters . Neither does D. Potter accuse any man of Schisme for holding so : if he should , he should call himselfe a Schismatique . Only he saies , such ( if there be any such ) as affirm , that ignorant soules among you , who had no means to know the truth , cannot possibly be saved , that their wisdome and charity cannot be justified . Now you your selfe haue plainly affirmed , That ignorant Protestants dying with contrition may bee saved ; and yet would be unwilling to be thought to say , that Protestants erre in no points necessary to salvation . For that may be in it selfe , and in ordinary course , where there are meanes of knowledge , necessary , which to a man invincibly ignorant , will proue not necessary . Again , where doth D. Potter suppose ( as you make him ) that there were other Protestants , who believed that your Church had no errours ? Or , where does hee say they did well to forsake her , upon this ridiculous reason , because they judged that she retained all means necessary to salvation ? Doe you think us so stupid , as that wee cannot distinguish between that which D. Potter sayes , and that which you make him say ? He vindicates Protestants from Schisme two waies : The one is , because they had just and great and necessary cause to separate , which Schismatiques never haue ; because they that haue it are no Schismatiques : For schisme is alwaies a causelesse separation . The other is , because they did not joyn with their separation , an uncharitable damning of all those from whom they did divide themselves , as the manner of Schismatiques is . Now that which he intends for a circumstance of our separation , you make him , make the cause of it , and the motiue to it . And whereas he saies , though we separate from you in some things , yet we acknowledge your Church a member of the body of Christ , and therefore are not Schismatiques : You make him say most absurdly , we did well to forsake you , because we iudged you a member of the body of Christ. Iust as if a brother should leaue his Brothers company in some ill courses , and should say to him , Herein I forsake you , yet I leave you not absolutely , for I acknowledge you still to be my brother , and shall use you as a brother : And you perverting his speech , should pretend that he had said , I leaue your company in these ill courses , and I doe well to doe so , because you are my Brother : so making that the cause of his leaving him , which indeed is the cause that he left him no farther . 75 But you say , The very reason for which hee acquitteth himselfe from Schisme , is because he holds that the Church which they forsook , is not cut off from the Body of Christ. Ans. This is true : But can you not perceive a difference between justifying his separation from Schisme by this reason , and making this the reason of his separation ? If a man denying obedience in some unlawfull matter to his lawfull Soveraign , should say to him , herein I disobey you , but yet I am no Rebell , because I acknowledge you my Soveraign Lord , and am ready to obey you in all things lawfull , should not he be an egregious sycophant , that should accuse him as if he had said , I doe well to disobey you , because I acknowledge you my lawfull Soveraign ? Certainly hee that joynes this acknowledgment with his necessitated disobedience , does well ; but he that makes this consideration the reason of his disobedience , doth ill . Vrge therefore this ( as you call it ) most solemn foppery as far as you please : For every understanding Reader will easily perceiue that this is no foppery of D. Potters , but a calumny of yours ; from which he is as far , as he is from holding yours to bee the true Church : whereas it is a sign of a great deal of Charity in him , that he allowes you to be a Part of it . 76 And whereas you pretend to finde such unspeakable comfort here ▪ in , that we cannot cleare our selues from Schisme , otherwise then by acknowledging that they doe not , nor cannot cut off your Church from the hope of salvation : I beseech you to take care that this false comfort cost you not too deare . For why this good opinion of God Almighty , that he will not damne men for errour , who were without their owne fault ignorant of the truth , should be any consolation to them , who having the key of knowledge , will neither use it themselves , nor permit others to use it ; who haue eyes to see and will not see , who haue cares to heare and will not heare ! this I assure you passeth my capacity to apprehend . Neither is this to make our salvation depend on yours , but only ours and yours not desperatly inconsistent . Nor to say wee must be damn'd unlesse you may be saved ; but that we assure our selues , if our lives be answerable , we shall be saved by our knowledge . And that wee hope ( and I tell you again Spes est reiincertae nomen , ) that some of you may possibly bee the rather saved by occasion of their unaffected Ignorance . 77 For our Brethren whom you say we condemn of heresie for denying the Churches perpetuity , we know none that doe so : unlesse you conceive a corrupted Church to be none at all ; and if you doe , then for ought I know , in your account we must be all Heretiques ; for all of us acknowledge that the Church might be corrupted even with errors in themselves damnable , and not only might , but hath been . 78 But Schisme consists in being divided from that true Church , with which a man agreeth in all points of faith : Now we must professe you agree with the Church of Rome in all Fundamentall Articles ; Therefore we are Schismatiques . Ans. Either in your Major , by all points of faith , you mean all fundamentall points only , or all simply and absolutely . If the former , I deny your Major : for I may without all schisme divide from that Church which erres in any point of faith Fundamentall or otherwise , if she require the profession of this Errour among the conditions of her Communion . Now this is our case . If the latter , I deny the syllogisme , as having manifestly foure termes , and being cosen German to this , He that obeys God in all things , is innocent ; Titius obeys God in some things ; Therefore he is innocent . 79 But they who judge a reconciliation with the Church of Rome to be damnable , they that say there might be iust and necessary cause to depart from it , and that they of that Church which haue understanding & means to discover their Errour , and neglect to use them , are not to bee flattered with hope of salvation ; they doe cut off that Church from the body of Christ and the hope of salvation , and so are Schismatiques : But D. Potter doth the former ; therefore is a Schismatique . Ans. No , he doth not : not cut off that whole Church from the hope of salvation , not those members of it who were invincibly , or excusably ignorant of the truth ; but those only who having understanding and meanes to discover their errour , neglect to use them . Now these are not the whole Church ; & therefore he that , supposing their impenitence , cuts these off from hope of salvation , cannot be justly said to cut off that whole Church from the Body of Christ , and the hope of salvation . 80 Ad § 28. 29. Whereas D. Potter saies , There is a great difference between a Schisme from them , and a Reformation of our selves : this you ●ay is a quaint subtilty by which all Schisme and sinne may be as well excused . It seems then in your judgement , that theeves and adulterers , and murtherers , and traytors may say with as much probability as Protestants , that they did no hurt to others , but only reforme themselves . But then me thinks it is very strange , that all Protestants should agree with one consent in this defence of themselves from the imputation of Schisme : and that to this day , never any Theefe or Murtherer should haue been heard of to make use of this Apologie ! And then for Schismatiques I would know , whether Victor Bishop of Rome , who excommunicated the Churches of Asia for not conforming to his Church in keeping Easter ; whether Novatian that divided from Cornelius , upon pretence that himselfe was elected Bishop of Rome , when indeed he was not ; whether Felicissimus and his Crew , that went out of the Church of Carthage , and set up altar against altar , because having fallen in persecutiō , they might not be restored to the peace of the Church presently , upon the intercession of the Confessours ; whether the Donatists , who divided from , and damned all the world , because all the world would not excommunicate them who were accused onely and not convicted to haue been Traditors of the sacred Books ; whether they which for the slips & infirmity of others , which they might and ought to tolerate , or upon some difference in matters of Order & Ceremony , or for some errour in doctrine , neither pernitious nor hurtfull to faith or piety , separate themselves from others , or others from themselves ; or lastly , whether they that put themselves out of the Churches unity and obedience , because their opinions are not approved there , but reprehended and confuted , or because being of impious conversation , they are impatient of their Churches censure : I would know I say , whether all , or any of these , may with any face or without extreme impudency , put in this plea of Protestants , and pretend with as much likelihood as they , that they did not separate from others , but only reforme themselves ? But suppose they were so impudent as to say so in their own defence falsely , doth it follow by any good Logick , that therefore this Apology is not to be imployed by Protestants , who may say so truly ? We make ( say they ) no Schisme from you , but only a reformation of our selves : This , you reply , is no good justification , because it may be pretended by any Schismatique . Very true , any Schismatique that can speak may say the same words , ( as any Rebell that makes conscience the cloake of his impious disobedience , may say with S. Peter and S. Iohn , we must obey God rather then men ; ) But then the question is , whether any Schismatique may say so truly ? And to this question you say just nothing : but conclude , because this defence may be abused by some , it must be used by none . As if you should haue said , S. Peter and S. Iohn did ill to make such an answer as they made , because impious Hypocrites might make use of the same to palliate their disobedience and Rebellion against the lawfull commands of lawfull Authority . 81 But seeing their pretended Reformation consisted in forsaking the Churches corruptions , their Reformation of themselves , and their dividivision from you , falls out to be one and the same thing . ) Iust as if two men having been a long while companions in drunkenesse , one of them should turne sober ; this Reformation of himselfe , and disertion of his companion , in this ill custome , would be one and the same thing , and yet there is no necessity that he should leave his love to him at all , or his society in other things . So Protestants forsaking their own former corruptions , which were common to them with you , could not choose but withall forsake you in the practice of these corruptions : yet this they might , and would have done without breach of Charity towards you ; and without a renunciation of your company in any act of piety and devotion , confessedly lawfull . And therefore though both these were by accident joyned together , yet this hinders not but that the end they aimed at , was not a separation from you , but a reformation of themselves . 82 Neither doth their disagreement in the particulars of the Reformation , ( which yet when you measure it without partiality , you will find to be farre short of infinite ) nor their symbolizing in the generall of forsaking your corruptions , prove any thing to the contrary , or any way advantage your designe or make for your purpose . For it is not any signe at all , much lesse an evident signe , that they had no setled designe , but only to forsake the Church of Rome : for nothing but malice can deny , that their intent at least was , to reduce Religion to that originall purity from which it was fallen . The declination from which , some conceiving to have begunne ( though secretly ) in the Apostles times , ( the mystery of iniquity being then in worke ; ) and after their departure to have shewed it selfe more openly : others again believing , that the Church continued pure for some Ages after the Apostles , & then declined : And consequently some aiming at an exact conformity with the Apostolique times : Others thinking they should doe God and men good service , could they reduce the Church to the condicion of the fourth & fifth ages : Some taking their direction in this work of Reformation , only from Scripture ; others from the writings of Fathers , and the Decrees of Councells of the first five Ages : certainly it is no great marveile , that there was , as you say , disagreement between them , in the particulars of their Reformation ; nay morally speaking , it was impossible it should be otherwise . Yet let me tell you , the difference between them ( especially in comparison of your Church and Religion , ) is not the difference between good and bad , but between good and better : And they did best that followed Scripture , interpreted by Catholique written Tradition : which rule the reformers of the Church of England , proposed to themselves to follow . 83 Ad § 30. 31. 32. To this effect D. Potter , p. 81. 82. of his book , speaks thus . If a Monastery should reforme it selfe , and should reduce into practice ancient good discipline , when others would not : In this case could it be charged with Schisme from others , or with Apostacy from its rule and order ? So in a society of men universally infected with some disease ; they that should free themselves from it , could they be therefore said to separate from the society ? He presumes they could not , and from hence concludes , that neither can the Reformed Churches be truly accused for making a Schisme , ( that is separating from the Church , and making themselves no members of it ) if all they did was ( as indeed it was ) to reforme themselves . Which cases I believe any understanding man will plainly see to have in them an exact parity of Reason , and that therefore the Argument drawn from them is pressing and un-answerable . And it may well be suspected , that you were partly of this mind , otherwise you would not have so presum'd upon the simplicity of your Reader as , pretending to answer it , to put another of your own making in place of it , and then to answer that . 84 This you doe § . 31. 32. of this Chapter , in these words , I was very glad to find you in a Monastery , &c. Where I beseech the Reader to observe these things to detect the cunning of your tergiversation : First , That you have no Reason to say , That you found D. Potter in a Monastery : and as little , that you find him inventing waies how to forsake his vocation , and to maintaine the lawfulnesse of Schisme from the Church , and Apostacy from a Religious Order . Certainly the innocent case put by the Doctor , of a Monastery reforming it selfe , hath not deserved such grievous accusations . Vnlesse Reformation with you be all one with Apostacy : and to forsake sinne and disorder , be to forsake ones vocation . And surely if it be so , your vocations are not very lawfull , and your Religious orders not very religious . Secondly , that you quite pervert and change D. Potters cases , and in stead of the case , of a whole Monastery reforming it selfe , when other Monasteries of their Order would not ; and of some men freeing themselves from the common disease of their society , when others would not : you substitute two others , which you thinke you can better deale with ; of some particular Monkes , upon pretence of the neglect of lesser monasticall observances , going out of their Monastery , which Monastery yet did confessedly observe their substantiall Vowes , and all Principall Statutes : And of a diseased Person , quitting the company of those that were infected with the same disease : though in their company , there was no danger from his disease , it being impossible that should be mortall : and out of it , no hope of escaping others like that for which he forsook the first infected Company . I appeale now to any indifferent judge , whether these cases be the same or neere the same with D. Potters ? Whether this be faire and ingenuous dealing , in stead of his two instances , which plainly shewed it possible in other societies , and consequently in that of the Church , to leave the faults of a society , and not leave being of it , to foist in two others , clean crosse to the Doctors purpose , of men under colour of faults , abandoning the society wherein they lived ? I know not what others may think of this dealing , but to me , this declining D. Potters cases and conveying others into their place , is a great assurance , that as they were put by him , you could say nothing to them . 85 But that no suspicion of tergiversation may be fastned upon me , I am content to deale with you a little , at your own weapons . Put the case then , though not just as you would have it , yet with as much ●avour to you , as in reason you can expect , That a Monastery did observe her substantiall vowes , and all Principall statutes , but yet did generally practise , and also enjoyne the violation of some lesser , yet obliging observances , and had done so time out of mind . And that some inferiour Monkes more conscientious then the rest , discovering this abuse , should first with all earnestnesse sollicite their Superiours for a generall and orderly reformation of these , though small and veniall corruptions , yet corruptions : But finding they hop'd and labour'd in vain to effect this , should reforme these faults in themselves , and refuse to joyne in the practice of them , with the rest of their Con●raternity , and persisting resolutely in such a refusall , should by their Superiours be cast out of their Monastery , and being not to be re-admitted without a promise of remitting from their stiffenesse in these things , and of condescending to others in the practice of their small faults , should choose rather to continue exiles , then to re-enter upon such conditions : I would know whether you would condemne such men of Apostacy from the Order ? Without doubt if you should , you would finde the streame of your Casuists against you , and besides , involve S. Paul in the same condemnation , who plainly tels , that we may not doe the least evill , that we may doe the greatest good . Put case again , you should be part of a Society universally infected with some disease , and discovering a certain remedy for this disease , should perswade the whole company to make use of it , but finde the greatest part of them so farre in love with their disease , that they were resolved to keepe it and besides , should make a decree , that whosoever would leave it , should leave their company . Suppose now that your selfe and some few others , should notwithstanding their injunction to the contrary , free your selves from this disease , and thereupon they should absolutely forsake and reject you : I would know in this case who deserves to be condemned , whether you of uncharitable desertion of your company , or they of a tyrannicall peevishnesse ? And if in these cases you will ( as I verily believe you will , ) acquit the inferiors and condemne the superiors , absolve the minor part and condemne the major , then can you with no reason condemne Prote●tants , for choosing rather to be ejected from the communion of the Roman Church , then with her to persist ( as of necessity they were to doe , if they would continue in her communion ) in the profession of Errors , though not destructive of salvation , yet hindering edification , and in the Practice , or at least approbation of many , ( suppose not mortall ) but veniall corruptions . 86 Thirdly , that you censure too partially the corrupt estate of your Church , in comparing it to a Monastery , which did confessedly observe their substantiall vowes , and all Principall Statutes of their order , and moreover was secured by an infallible assistance , for the avoiding of all substantiall corruptions : for of your Church we confesse no such matter , but say plainly , That she not only might fall into substantiall corruptions , but did so ; that she did not only generally violate , but of all the members of her communion , either in act or approbation , require and exact the violation of many substantiall lawes of Christ , both Ceremoniall and Morall , which though we hope it was pardonable in them , who had not meanes to know their errour , yet of its own nature , and to them who did or might have known their errour , was certainly damnable . And that it was not the tything of Mint , and Annise , and Cummin , the neglect whereof we impute unto you , but the neglect of judgement , justice , and the weightier matters of the Law. 87 Fourthly , I am to represent unto you , that you use Protestants very strangely , in comparing them to a company , who all were known to be led to their pretended reformation , not with an intent of Reformation , but with some other sinister intention ; which is impossible to be known of you , and therefore to judge so , is against Christian Charity , and common equity : and to such a Company as acknowledge that themselves , as soone as they were gone out from the Monastery that deferred to reforme , must not hope to be free from those or the like Errors , and Corruptions for which they left their Brethren : seeing this very hope and nothing else , moved them to leave your Communion : and this speech of yours , so farre as it concernes the same errors , plainly destroies itselfe . For how can they possibly fall into the same errors by forsaking your Communion , which that they may forsake they doe forsake your Communion ? And then for other errors of the like nature and quality , or more enormous then yours , though they deny it not possible , but by their negligence and wickednesse they may fall into them , yet they are so farre from acknowledging that they have no hope to avoid this mischiefe , that they proclaime to all the world , that it is most prone and easy to doe so , to all those that feare God and love the truth ; and hardly possible for them to doe otherwise , without supine negligence and extream impiety . 88 To fit the reddition of your perverted Simile , to the Proposition of it , you tell us that we teach that for all fundamentall points , the Church is secured from errour . I Answer , Fundamentall errors may signify , either such as are repugnant to Gods command , and so in their own nature damnable , though to those which out of invincible ignorance practise them , not unpardonable : or such as are not only meritoriously , but remedilessely pernitious and destructive of Salvation . We hope that yours and the Greeke & other Churches before the Reformation , had not so farre apostated from Christ , as to be guilty of errors of the latter sort . We say that not only the Catholique Church , but every Particular true Church , so long as it continues a Church , is secur'd from Fundamentall errors of this kind , but secur'd not absolutely by any promise of divine assistance , which being not ordinarily irresistible , but temper'd to the nature of the Receivers , may be neglected , and therefore withdrawn : but by the Repugnance of any errour in this sense fundamentall to the essence and nature of a Church . So that to speak properly , not any set known company of men is secur'd , that , though they neglect the meanes of avoiding error , yet certainly they shall not erre , which were necessary for the constitution of an infallible guide of faith : But rather they which know what is meant by a Church , are secur'd or rather certain that a Church remaining a Church , cannot fall into fundamentall error , because when it does so , it is no longer a Church . As they are certain that men cannot become unreasonable creatures , because when they doe so , they are no longer men . But for fundamentall errors of the former sort , which yet I hope will warrant our departure from any Communion infected with them , and requiring the Profession of them , from such fundamentall errors , we doe not teach so much as that the Church Catholique , much lesse , ( which only were for your purpose , ) that your Church hath any protection or security , but know for a certain , that many errors of this nature , had prevailed against you ; and that a vain presumption of an absolute divine assistance ( which yet is promised but upon conditions , ) made both your present errors incurable , and exposed you to the imminent danger of more & greater . This therefore is either to abuse what we say , or to impose falsely upon us what we say not . And to this you presently adde another manifest falsehood , viz. that we say , that no particular person or Church , hath any promise of assistance in points fundamentall . Whereas crosse to this in diameter , there is no Protestant but holds , and must hold , that there is no particular Church , no nor person , but hath promise of divine assistance to lead them into all necessary truth ; if they seeke it as they should , by the meanes which God hath appointed . And should we say otherwise , we should contrary plain Scripture , which assures us plainly , that every one that seeketh findeth , and every one that asketh receiveth : and that if we being evill , can give good gifts to our children , much more shall our heavenly Father , give his spirit to them that aske it : and that if any man want wisdome ( especially spirituall wisdome ) he is to aske of God , who giveth to all men , and upbraideth not . 89 You obtrude upon us thirdly , That when Luther began , he being but one , opposed himselfe to all , as well Subjects as Superiors . Ans. If he did so in the cause of God , it was heroically done of him . This had been without hyperbolizing , Mundus contra Athanasium , and Athanasius contra Mundum : neither is it impossible , that the whole world should so farre lye in wickednesse ( as S. Iohn speakes ) that it may be lawfull and noble for one man to oppose the world . But yet were we put to our oathes , we should surely not testify any such thing for you ; for how can we say properly and without streining , that he opposed himselfe to All , unlesse we could say also , that All opposed themselves to him ? And how can we say so , seeing the world can witnesse , that so many thousands , nay millions followed his standard as soone as it was advanced ? 90 But , none that lived immediatly before him thought or spake as he did . This is first nothing to the purpose . The Church was then corrupted , and sure it was no dishonour to him to beginne the Reformation . In the Christian warfare , every man ought to strive to be foremost . Secondly , it is more then you can justify . For though no man before him lifted up his voice like a trumpet , as Luther did , yet who can assure us , but that many before him , both thought and spake in lower voice of petitions and remonstrances , in many points , as he did ? 91 Fourthly and lastly , whereas you say that many chiefe learned Protestants , are forced to confesse the Antiquity of your Doctrine and Practise : I Answer , of many Doctrines and Practises of yours , this is not true , not pretended to be true by those that have dealt in this Argument . Search your storehouse M. Brerely , who hath travailed as farre in this Northwest discovery , as it was possible for humane industry , and when you have done so , I pray informe me , what confessions of Protestants have you , for the Antiquity of the Doctrine of the Communion in one kinde : the lawfulnesse and expedience of the Latine service : For the present use of Indulgences : For the Popes power in Temporalties over Princes : For the picturing of the Trinity : For the lawfulnesse of the worship of Pictures : For your Beades and Rosary , and Ladies Psalter ; and in a word , for your whole worship of the B. Virgin : For your oblations by way of consumption , & therefore in the quality of Sacrifices to the Virgin Mary & other Saints : For your saying of Pater-nosters , & Creeds to the honour of Saints , and of Ave-Maries to the honour of other Saints besides the Blessed Virgin : For infallibility of the Bishop or Church of Rome : For your prohibiting the Scripture to be read publikely in the Church , in such languages as all may understand : For your Doctrine of the Blessed Virgins immunity from actuall sinne ; and for your doctrine and worship of her immaculate conception : For the necessity of Auricular Confession : For the necessity of the Priests Intention to obtain benefit by any of your Sacraments : And lastly ( not to trouble my selfe with finding out more ) for this very doctrine of Licentiousnesse , That though a man live and dye without the practise of Christian vertues , and with the habits of many damnable sinnes unmortified , yet if he in the last moment of life , have any sorrow for his sinnes , and joyne confession with it , certainly he shall be saved ? Secondly , they that confesse some of your doctrines to have been the Doctrine of the Fathers , may be mistaken , being abused by may words and phrases of the Fathers , which have the Roman sound , when they are farre from the sense . Some of them I am sure are so , I will name Goulartius , who in his Commentaries on S. Cyprian's 35. Ep. grants that the sentence Heresies haue sprung , &c. quoted by you § . 36. of this Chapter ▪ was meant of Cornelius : whereas it will be very plain to any attentive reader , that S. Cyprian speaks there of himselfe . Thirdly , though some Protestants confesse some of your doctrine to be Ancient , yet this is nothing , so long as it is evident , even by the confession of all sides , that many errors , I instance in that of the Millenaries , and the communicating of Infants , were more ancient . Not any antiquity therefore , unlesse it be absolute and primitive , is a certain signe of true Doctrine . For if the Church were obnoxious to corruption ( as we pretend it was , ) who can possibly warrant us that part of this corruption , might not get in and prevaile in the 5. or 4. or 3. or 2. age ? Especially seeing the A-Apostles assure us that the mystery of iniquity was working , though more secretly evē in their times . If any man aske how could it become universall in so short a time ? Let him tell me how the Error of the Millenaries , and the communicating of Infants , became so soone universall , and then he shall acknowledge , what was done in some , was possible in others . Lastly , to cry quittance with you : As there are Protestants who confesse the antiquity , but alwaies post-na●e to Apostolique , of some points of your Doctrine : so there want not Papists who acknowledge as freely , the novelty of many of them , and the Antiquity of ours . A collection of whose testimony , we have ( without thankes to you ) in your Indices expurgatorij : The divine Providence , blessedly abusing for the readier manifestation of the Truth this engine intended by you for the subversion and suppression of it . Here is no place to stand upon particulars : onely one generall ingenuous confession of that great Erasmus , may not be pass'd over in silence . Non de sunt magni Theologi , qui non verentur affirmare , nihil esse in Luthero , quin per probatos authores defendi possit . There want not great Divines , which stick not to affirme , that there is nothing in Luther , which may not be defended by good and allowed authors . Whereas therefore you close up this Simile with , consider these points , and see whether your similitude doe not condemne your Progenitors of Schisme from Gods visible Church : I assure you , I have well considered them , and doe plainly see that this is not D. Potters similitude , but your owne ; and besides , that it is wholly made up of mistakes and falsehoods , and is at no hand a sufficient proofe of this great Accusation . 92 Let us come now to the second similitude of your making , in the entrance whereunto you tell us , that from the Monastery D. Potter is fled to an Hospitall of persons Vniversally infected with some disease , where he findes to be true , what you supposed , that after his departure from his Brethren , he might fall into greater inconveniences , and more infectious diseases then those for which he left them . Thus you . But to deale truly with you , I finde nothing of all this , nor how it is consequent from any thing said by you , or done by D. Potter . But this I finde , that you haue composed this your similitude as you did the former , of a heap of vaine suppositions , pretended to be grounded on our confessions . As first , that your diseases which we for sook , neither were nor could be mortall : whereas we assure our selves , and are ready to justifie , that they are and were mortall in themselves , and would haue been so to us , if when light came to us we had loved darknesse more then light . And D. Potter though he hope your Church wanted no necessary vitall part , that is , that some in your Church by ignorance might bee saved ; yet he nothing doubts but that it is full of ulcers without , and diseases within , and is so far from extenuating your errours as to make them only like the superfluous fingers of the gyant of Gath. Secondly , that we had no hope to avoid other diseases like those for which wee forsook your company , nor to be secure out of it from damnable errors : whereas the hope hereof was the only motive our departure ; and we assure our selves that the meanes to be secured from damnable errour , is not to be secure as you are , but carefully to use those means of avoiding it , to which God hath promised , and will never fayle to giue a blessing . Thirdly , that those innumerable mischiefes which followed upon the departure of Protestants , were caused by it as by a proper cause : whereas their doctrine was no otherwise the occasion of them , then the Gospell of Christ of the division of the world . The only fountaine of all these mischiefes , being indeed no other then your powring out a flood of persecutions against Protestants , only because they would not sin & be damn'd with you for company . Vnlesse wee may adde the impatience of some Protestants , who not enduring to be torne in peeces like sheep by a company of wolves without resistance , chose rather to dye like souldiers then Martyrs . 93 But you proceed , and falling into a fit of admiration , cry out & say thus , To what passe hath Heresie brought men , who blush not to compare the beloved Spouse of the Lord , the only Doue , &c. to a Monastery that must be forsaken ; to the gyant in Gath with superfluous fingers ! but this Spouse of Christ , this onely Doue , this purchase of our Saviours blood , this Catholique Church , which you thus almost deifie , what is it but a Society of men , whereof every particular , and by consequence , the whole company is or may be guilty of many sinnes daily committed against knowledge & conscience ? Now I would faine understand why one errour in faith , especially if not fundamentall , should not consist with the holinesse of this Spouse , this Dove , this Church , as well as many and great sinnes committed against knowledge and conscience ? If this be not to strain at gnats and swallow camels , I would fain understand what it is ! And hereby the way I desire you to consider whether as it were with one stroke of a sponge you doe not wipe out all that you haue said , to proue Protestants Schismatiques for separating from your Church , though supposed to bee in some errours not fundamentall ! For if any such errour may make her deserue to be compared to a Monastery so disordered that it must be forsaken ; then if you suppose ( as here you doe ) your Church in such errours , your Church is so disordered that it must , and therefore without question may be forsaken , I mean in those her disorders and corruptions , and no farther . 94 And yet you haue not done with those similitudes , But must observe ( you say ) one thing , and that is , that as these Reformers of the Monastery , and others who left the diseased company , could not deny but that they left the said communities : So Luther and the rest cannot pretend , not to haue left the visible Church . And that D. Potter speaks very strangely whē he saies , In a society of men vniversally infected with some disease , they that should free themselves from the common disease , could not be therefore said to separate from the society . For if they doe not separate themselues from the society of the infected persons , how doe they free themselues from the common disease ? To which I answer : That indeed if you speak of the Reformers of a Monastery and of the Deserors of the diseased company , as you put the cases , that is , of those which left these communities , then is it as true as Gospell , that they cannot deny but that they left the said communities . But it appeares not to me how it will ensue hereupon : that Luther and the rest cannot pretend not to haue left the visible Church . For to my apprehension this Argument is very weak , They which left some communities cannot truly deny but that they left them ; Therefore Luther and his followers cannot deny but that they left the visible Church . Where me thinks you prove little , but take for granted that which is one of the greatest Questions amongst us , that is , That the Company which Luther left , was the whole Visible Church : whereas you know we say , it was but a part of it , and that corrupted , and obstinate in her corruptions . Indeed that Luther and his followers left off the Practice of those Corruptions wherein the whole Visible Church did communicate formerly , ( which I meant when I acknowledg'd aboue that they forsook the externall Communion of the Visible Church , ) or that they left that part of the Visible church in her corruptions which would not be reformed : These things , if you desire , I shall be willing to grant ; and that by a Synecdoche of the whole for the part , he might be said to forsake the Visible Church , that is , a part of it , and the greater part . But that properly speaking , he forsook the whole Visible Church , I hope you will excuse me if I grant not this , untill you bring better proofe of it , then your former similitude . And my Reason is his , because he and his Followers were a part of this Church , and ceased not to be so by their Reformation . Now he and his followers certainly forsook not themselves , Therefore not every part of the Church , therefore not the whole Church . But then if you speak of D. Potters cases , according as he put them , and answer not your owne Arguments , when you make shew of answering his : me thinks it should not be so unreasonable as you make it , for the Persons he speaks of to deny that they left the communities whereof they were Members . For example , That the Monkes of S. Benets Order make one Body , whereof their severall Monasteries are severall members , I presume it will be easily granted . Suppose now that all these Monasteries being quite out of Order , some 20. or 30. of them should reforme themselves , the rest persisting still in their irregular couses : were it such a mon. strous impudence as you make it , for these Monasteries , which we suppose reformed , to deny that they forsook their Order or Community whereof they were parts ? In my Opinion it is no such matter . Let the world judge . Againe , whereas the Dr saies , that in a Society of men Vniversally infected with some disease , they that should free themselues from the common disease , could not therefore be said to separate from the Society : It is very strange to me that you should say , he speaks very strangely . Truly Sr I am extreamly deceaved if his words be not plain English , and plain sense , and containe such a manifest Truth as cannot be denyed with modesty , nor gone about to be proved without vanity . For whatsoever is proved must be proved by something more evident : Now what can be more evident then this ; That if some whole Families were taken with Agues , if the Father of this Family should free himselfe from his , that he should not therefore deservedly be thought to abandon and desert his Family ? But ( say you ) if they doe not separate themselves from the Society of the wicked persons , how doe they free themselves from the common disease ? Doe they at the same time remaine in the company and yet depart from those infected creatures ? Me thinks a Writer of Controversies should not be ignorant how this may be done without any such difficulty ! But if you doe not know , I 'le tell you . There is no necessity they should leaue the company of these infected persons at all : much lesse , that they should at once depart from it and remaine with it , which I confesse were very difficult . But if they will free themselues from their disease , let them stay where they are , and take physick . Or if you would be better informed how this strange thing may be done , learne from your selfe , They may free their own persons from the common disease , yet so that they remain still in the company infected , eating and drinking with them , &c. Which are your own words within foure or fiue lines after this : plainly shewing that your mistaking D. Potters meaning , & your wondring at his words as at some strange monsters , was all this while affected , and that you are conscious to your selfe of perverting his Argument that you may seem to say something , when indeed you say nothing . Whereas therefore you adde , we must then say that they separate themselues from the persons , though it be by occasion of the disease , I assure you good Sir , you must not doe so at any hand ; for then you alter & spoile D. Potters case quite , and fight not with his reason but your own shadow . For the instance of a man freeing himselfe from the disease of his company , and not leaving his company , is very fit to proue , by the parity of reason , that it is very possible , a man may leaue the corruptions of a Church , and not leaue the Church , that is , not cease to be a member of it : But yours of a man leaving his company by occasion of their disease , hath no analogy at all with this businesse . 95 But Luther & his followers did not continue in the cōpany of those from whose diseases they pretend to free themselves . Very true , neither was it said they did so . There is no necessity that that which is compared to another thing should agree with it in all things : it is sufficient if it agree in that wherein it is compared . A man freeing himselfe from the common disease of a society , and yet continuing a part of it , is here compared to Luther and his followers , freeing themselues from the corruptions of the visible Church , & continuing a part of the Church . As for accompanying the other parts of it in all things , it was neither necessary , nor , without destroying our supposition of their forsaking the corruptions of the Church , possible . Not necessary ; for they may be parts of the Church which doe not joyne with other parts of it in all observances . Nor possible , for had he accompanied them in all things , he had not freed himselfe from the common corruptions . 96 But they indeavoured to force the society whereof they were parts to be healed and reformed as they were ; and if it refused , they did , when they had power driue them away , even their superiours both Spirituall and Temporall as is notorious . The proofes hereof are wanting and therefore I might deferre my answer untill they were produced ; yet take this before hand : If they did so , then herein , in my opinion , they did amisse ; for I haue learnt from the ancient Fathers of the Church , that nothing is more against Religion then to force Religion , & of S. Paul , the weapons of the Christian warfare are not carnall . And great reason : For humane violence may make men counterfeit , but cannot make them believe , & is therefore fit for nothing but to breed forme without , & Atheisme within . Besides , if this meanes of bringing men to embrace any Religion were generally used ( as if it may be justly used in any place by those that haue power , and think they haue truth , certainly they cannot with reason deny but that it may bee used in every place , by those that haue power as well as they , and think they haue truth as wel as they , ) what could follow but the maintenance perhaps of truth , but perhaps onely of the profession of it in one place , & the oppression of it in a hundred ? What will follow from it but the preservation peradventure of unity , but peradventure only of uniformity in particular States & Churches ; but the immortalizing the greater and more lamentable divisions of Christendome and the world ? And therefore what can follow from it , but perhaps in the judgement of carnall policie , the temporall benefit and tranquillity of temporall States and Kingdomes , but the infinit prejudice , if not the desolation of the kingdome of Christ ? And therefore it well becomes thē who haue their portions in this life , who serve no higher State then that of England , or Spain , or France , nor this neither any further then they may serue themselves by it ; who thinke of no other happinesse but the preservation of their own fortunes and tranquillity in this world ; who think of no other meanes to preserve States , but humane power and Machiavillian policie ; and belieue no other Creed but this , Regi aut Civitati imperium habenti nihil iniustum , quod utile ! Such men as these it may become to maintaine by worldly power and violence their State instrument , Religion . For if all be vain and false , ( as in their judgement it is ) the present whatsoever , is better then any , because it is already setled : and alteration of it may draw with it change of States , and the change of State the subversion of their fortune . But they that are indeed servants and lovers of Christ , of truth , of the Church , and of man-kinde , ought with all courage to oppose themselves against it , as a common enemy of all these . They that know there is a King of Kings and Lord of Lords , by whose will and pleasure Kings and Kingdomes stand and fall , they know , that to no King or state any thing can be profitable which is unjust ; and that nothing can be more evidently unjust , then to force weak men by the profession of a religion which they believe not , to loose their owne eternall happinesse , out of a vain and needlesse feare , least they may possibly disturb their temporall quietnesse . There is no danger to any state from any mans opinion ; unlesse it be such an opinion by which disobedience to authority , or impiety is taught or licenc'd , which sort , I confesse may justly be punished as well as other faults ; or unlesse this sanguinary doctrine bee joyn'd with it , that it is lawfull for him by humane violence to enforce others to it . Therefore if Protestants did offer violence to other mens consciences and compell them to embrace their Reformation , I excuse them not : much lesse if they did so to the sacred Persons of Kings , and those that were in authority over them , who ought to be so secur'd from violence , that even their unjust and tyrannous violence , though it may be avoided ( according to that of our Saviour , When they persecute you in one Citty fly into another , ) yet may it not be resisted by opposing violence against it . Protestants therefore that were guilty of this crime are not to be excused , and blessed had they been had they chosen rather to be Martyrs then murderers , and to dye for their religion rather then to fight for it . But of all the men in the world you are the most unfit to accuse them hereof , against whō the soules of the Martyrs from under the Altar cry much lowder then against all their other Persecutors together : Who for these many ages together haue daily sacrificed Hecatombes of innocent Christians , under the name of Heretiques , to your blind zeal and furious superstition . Who teach plainly , that you may propagate your Religion whensoever you haue power by deposing of Kings and invasion of Kingdomes , & think when you kill the adversaries of it , you doe God good service . But for their departing corporally from them , whom mentally they had forsaken : For their forsaking the externall Cōmunion & company of that part of the unreformed part of the Church , in their superstitions & impieties : thus much of your accusation we embrace & glory in it ; And say though some Protestants might offend in the manner or the degree of their separation , yet certainly their separation it selfe was not Schismaticall , but innocent , and not only so , but just and necessary . And as for your obtruding upon D. Potter that he should say , There neither was nor could be iust cause to doe so , no more then to depart from Christ himselfe . I haue shewed divers times already , that you sdeal very injuriously with him , confounding together , Departing from the Church , and Departing from some generall opinions and practises , which did not constitute but vitiate , not make the Church but marre it . For though he saies , that which is most true , that there can be no iust cause to depart from the Church , that is , to cease being a member of the Church , no more then to depart from Christ himself , in as much as these are not divers but the same thing , yet he no where denies , but there might be iust and necessary cause to depart from some opinions and practises of your Church , nay of the Catholique Church . And therefore you doe vainly to infer , that Luther and his followers for so doing , were Schismatiques . 97 Ad § 35. I answer in a word , that neither are Optatus his sayings rules of Faith , and therefore not fit to determine Controversies of Faith : And then that Majorinus might well be a Schismatique for departing from Ca cilianus , and the Chayre of Cyprian & Peter without cause , and yet Luther and his followers who departed from the Communion of the Bishop of Rome , and the Bishop of their own Diocesse be none , because they had just and necessary cause of their departure . For otherwise they must haue continued in the profession of known Errours and the practise of manifest corruptions . 98 Ad § 36. In the next Section you tell us , that Christ our Lord gaue S. Peter & his successors authority over his whole Militant Church . And for proof hereof you first referre us to Brerely , citing exactly the places of such cheefe Protestants as haue confessed the antiquity of this point . Where first you fall into the Fallacy which is called Ignoratio elenchi , or mistaking the Question ; for being to proue this point true , you onely prove it ancient . Which , to what purpose is it , when both the parties litigant are agreed that many errors were held by many of the ancient Doctors , much more ancient then any of those who are pretended to be confessed by Protestants to haue held with you in this matter : and when those whom you haue to doe with , and whom it is vain to dispute against but out of Principles received by them , are all peremptory , that though novelty be a certain note of falshood , yet no antiquity lesse then Apostolicall is a certain note of truth ? Yet this I say not as if I did acknowledge what you pretend , that Protestants did confesse the Fathers against them in this point . For the point here issuable is not , whether S. Peter were head of the Church ? Nor whether the Bishop of Rome had any priority in the Church ? Nor whether he had authority over it given him by the Church ? But whether by Divine right , and by Christs appointment he were Head of the Catholique Church ? Now having perused Brerely , I cannot find any one Protestant confessing any one Father to haue concurred in opinion with you in this point . And the Reader hath reason to suspect , that you also out of all the Fathers could not finde any one authority pertinent to this purpose : for otherwise you were much to blame , citing so few , to make choice of such as are impertinent . For let the understanding Reader peruse the 55. Epist. of S. Cyprian , with any ordinary attention , out of which you take your first place , and I am confident hee shall finde that he meanes nothing else by the words quoted by you , But that in one particular Church at one time there ought to bee but one Bishop , and that he should be obeyed in all things lawfull : The non-performance whereof was one of the most ordinary causes of heresies against the Faith , and Schisme from the Communion of the Church Vniversall . He shall finde secondly , and that by many convincing Arguments , that though he write to Cornelius Bishop of Rome , yet hee speaks not of him , but of himselfe then Bishop of Carthage , against whom a faction of Schismatiques had then set up another . And therefore here your ingenuitie is to bee commended aboue many of your side : For whereas they ordinarily abuse this place to prove , that in the whole Church there ought to be but one Priest and one Iudge ; you seem somewhat diffident hereof , and thereupon say , that these words plainly condemne Luther , whether he will understand them as spoken of the Vniversall or of every particular Church . But whether they condemne Luther is another Question . The question here is , whether they plainly proue the Popes Supremacy over al other Bishops ? which certainly they are as far from proving , as from proving the supremacy of any other Bishop : seeing it is evident they were intended not of one Bishop over the whole Catholique Church , but of one Bishop in one particular Church . 99 And no lesse impertinent is your saying out of Optatus , if it be well lookt into , though at the first sight it may seem otherwise ; because Optatus his scene happened to be Rome , whereas S. Cyprians was Carthage . The truth is the Donatists had set up at Rome a Bishop of their faction : not with intent to make him Bishop of the whole Church but of that Church in particular . Now Optatus going upon S. Cyprians aboue mentioned ground of one Bishop in one Church , proves them Schismatiques for so doing , and he proves it by this Argument : S. Peter was first Bishop of Rome , neither did the Apostles attribute to themselves each one his particular Chaire , ( understand in that Citty , for in other places others I hope had Chaires besides S. Peter ) and therefore he is a Schismatique , who against that one single Chaire erects another ( understand as before , in that place ) making another Bishop of that Diocesse besides him who was lawfully elected to it . 100 But yet by the way he stiles S. Peter head of the Apostles , and saies that from thence he was called Cephas . Ans. Perhaps he was abused into this opinion , by thinking Cephas derived from the greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a head : whereas it is a Syriack word and signifies a stone . Besides S. Peter might be head of the Apostles , that is , first in order and honour among them , and not have supreme Authority over them . And indeed that S. Peter should have authority overall the Apostles , and yet exercise no one act of Authority over any one of them , and that they should shew to him no signe of subjection , me thinkes is as strange , as that a King of England for twenty five yeares should doe no Act of Regality , nor receive any one acknowledgement of it . As strange me thinks it is , that you so many ages after , should know this so certainly , as you pretend to doe , and that the Apostles ( after that those words were spoken in their hearing , by vertue whereof S. Peter is pretended to have been made their head , ) should still be so ignorant of it , as to question which of them should be the greatest ? yet more strange , that our Saviour should not bring them out of their error , by telling them S. Peter was the man , but rather confirme it by saying , the Kings of the Gentiles exercise authority over them , but it should not be so among them . No lesse a wonder was it that S. Paul should so farre forget S. Peter and himselfe , as that first mentioning him often , he should doe it without any title of Honour . Secondly , speaking of the severall degrees of men in the Church , he should not give S. Peter the highest , but place him in equipage with the rest of the Apostles , and say , God hath appointed ( not first Peter , then the rest of the Apostles , but ) first Apostles , secondly Prophets . Certainly if the Apostles were all first , to me it is very probable , that no one of them was before the rest . For by First , all men understand either that which is before all , or that before which is nothing . Now in the former sense , the Apostles could not be all first , for then every one of them must have been before every one of the rest . And therefore they must be First in the other sense . And therefore No man , and therefore not S. Peter , must be before any of them . Thirdly and Lastly , that speaking of himselfe in particular , and perhaps comparing himselfe with S. Peter in particular , rather then any other , he should say in plain termes , I am in nothing inferior to the very chiefest Apostles . But besides all this , Though we should grant against all these probabilities and many more , that Optatus meant that S. Peter was head of the Apostles , not in our but in your sense , and that S. Peter indeed was so ; yet still you are very farre from shewing , that in the judgement of Optatus , the Bishop of Rome , was to be at all , much lesse by divine right , successor to S. Peter in this his Headship & Authority . For what incōgruity is there , if we say , that he might succeed S. Peter in that part of his care , the government of that particular Church , ( as sure he did even while S. Peter was living , ) and yet that neither he nor any man was to succeed him in his Apostleship , nor in his government of the Church Vniversall ? Especially seeing S. Peter and the rest of the Apostles , by laying the foundations of the Church , were to be the Foundations of it , and accordingly are so called in Scripture . And therefore as in a building it is incongruous that foundations should succeed foundations : So it may be in the Church , that any other Apostle should succeed the first . 101 Ad § . 37. The next Paragraph I might well passe over , as having no Argument in it . For there is nothing in it but two sayings of S. Austine , which I have great reason to esteeme no Argument , untill you will promise me , to grant whatsoever I shall prove by two sayings of S. Austine . But moreover , the second of these sentences seemes to me , to imply the contradiction of the first . For to say , That the Sacriledge of Schisme is eminent , when there is no cause of separation , implyes to my understanding , that there may be a cause of Separation . Now in the first , he saies plainly That this is impossible . Neither doth any reconciliation of his wordes occurre to me , but only this , that in the former he speaks upon supposition , that the Publique service of God , where in men are to communicate is unpolluted , and no unlawfull thing practised in their communion , which was so true of their communion , that the Donatists who separated did not deny it . And to make this Answer no improbable evasion , it is observable out of S. Austine and Optatus , that though the Donatists , at the beginning of their Separation , pretended no cause for it , but only that the men from whom they separated , were defiled with the contagion of Traditors ; yet afterwards , to make the continuance of it more justifiable , they did invent and spread abroad this calumny against Catholiques , that they set pictures upon their Altars : which when S. Austine comes to Answer , he does not deny the possibility of the thing , for that had been to deny the Catholique Church to be made up of men , all which had free will to evill , and therefore might possibly agree in doeing it , and had he denyed this , the Action of after Ages had been his refutation : Neither does he say , ( as you would have done , ) that it was true , they placed pictures there , and moreover worshipped them , but yet not for their own sakes , but for theirs who were represented by them : Neither does he say , ( as you doe in this Chapter ) that though this were granted a Corruption , yet were they not to separate for it . What then does he ? certainly nothing else , but abhorre the thing , and deny the imputation : Which way of answering , does not I confesse plainly shew , but yet it somewhat intimates that he had nothing else to answer ; and that if he could not have denyed this , he could not have denyed the Donatists separation from them to have been just . If this Answer , to this little Argument seem not sufficient , I adde moreover , that if it be applyed to Luthers separation , it hath the common fault of all your Allegations out of Fathers , impertinence . For it is one thing to separate from the Communion of the whole world , another to separate from all the Communions in the world : One thing to divide from them who are united among themselves , another to diuide from them who are divided among themselves . Now the Donatists separated from the whole World of Christians , united in one Communion , professing the same Faith , serving God after the same manner , which was a very great Argument , that they could not have just cause to leave them : according to that of Tertullian , Variasse debuerat error Ecclesiarum , quod autem apud multos unumest , non est Erratum sed Traditum . But Luther and his followers did not so . The world , I mean of Christians and Catholiques , was divided and subdivided long before hee divided from it ; and by their divisions had much weakned their own Authority , and taken away from you this plea of S. Austine , which stands upon no other Foundation , but the Vnity of the whole worlds Communion . 102 Ad § . 38. If Luther were in the right , most certain those Protestants that differed from him were in the wrong : But that either he or they were Schismatiques , it followes not . Or if it does , then either the Iesuits are Schismatiques from the Dominicans , or they from the Iesuits ; The Canonists from the Iesuites , or the Iesuites from the Canonists : The Scotists from the Thomists , or they from the Scotists : The Franciscans from the Dominicans , or the Dominicans from the Franciscans . For between all these the world knowes ; that in point of Doctrine , there is plain and irreconcileable contradiction , and therefore one Part must be in error , at least not Fundamentall . Thus your Argument returnes upon your selfe , and if it be good , proves the Roman Church in a manner to bee made up of Schismatiques . But the Answer to it is , that it begges this very false and vain supposition ; That whosoever erres in any point of doctrine is a Schismatique . 103 Ad § . 39. In the next place you number up your victories , and tell us , that out of these premises , this conclusion followes , That Luther and his followers were Schismatiques from the Visible Church , the Pope , the Diocesse wherein they were baptized , from the Bishop vnder whom they lived , from the country to which they belonged , from their Religious order , wherein they were professed , from one another , and lastly , from a mans selfe : Because the selfesame Protestant is convicted to day , that his yesterdaies opinion was an error . To which I Answer , that Luther and his followers separated from many of these , in some opininions and practices ▪ But that they did it without cause , which only can make them Schismatiques , that was the only thing you should have prov'd , and to that you have not urged one reason of any moment . All of them for weight and strength , were cosen-germans to this pretty device , wherewith you will prove them Schismatiques from themselves , because the selfesame Protestant to day is convicted in conscience , that his yesterdaies opinion was an error . It seemes then that they that hold errors , must hold them fast , and take speciall care of being convicted in conscience , that they are in error , for fear of being Schismatiques ! Protestants must continue Protestants , and Puritans Puritans , and Papists Papists , nay Iewes , and Turkes , and Pagans , must remain Iewes , and Turkes , and Pagans , and goe on constantly to the Divell , or else forsooth they must be Schismatiques , and that from themselves . And this perhaps is the cause that makes Papists so obstinate , not only in their common superstition , but also in adhering to the proper phancies of their severall Sects , so that it is a miracle to heare of any Iesuite , that hath forsaken the opinion of the Iesuites : or any Dominican that hath chang'd his for the Iesuits . Without question , this Gentleman my Adversary knowes none such , or else methinkes he should not have objected it to D. Potter ( That he knew a man in the world who from a Puritan , was turned to a moderate Protestant , which is likely to bee true . But sure if this bee all his fault , hee hath no reason to be ashamed of his acquaintance . For possibly it may be a fault to be in error , because many times it proceeds from a fault : But sure the forsaking of error cannot be a sinne , unlesse to be in error be a vertue . And therefore , to doe as you doe , to damne men for false opinions , and to call them Schismatiques for leaving them ; to make pertinacy in error , that is , an unwillingnesse to be convicted , or a resolution not to be convicted , the forme of Heresies , and to find fault with men , for being convicted in conscience that they are in error , is the most incoherent and contradictious injustice that ever was heard of . But Sir , if this be a strange matter to you , that which I shall tell you will be much stranger . I know a man that of a moderate Protestant turn'd a Papist , and the day that he did so , ( as all things that are done are perfected some day or other , ) was convicted in conscience , that his yesterdaies opinion was an error , and yet thinks hee was no Schismatique for doing sos , and desires to bee informed by you , whether or no hee was mistaken ? The same man afterwards upon better consideration , became a doubting Papist , and of a doubting Papist , a confirm'd Protestant . And yet this man thinks himselfe no more to blame for all these changes , then a Travailer , who using all diligence to find the right way to some remote Citty , where he never had been , ( as the party I speak of had never been in Heaven , ) did yet mistake it , and after finde his error , and amend it . Nay he stands upon his justification so farre , as to maintain that his alterations , not only to you , but also from you by Gods mercy , were the most satisfactory actions to himselfe , that ever he did , and the greatest victories that ever he obtained over himselfe , and his affections to those things which in this world are most precious ; as wherein for Gods sake and ( as he was verily perswaded , ) out of love to the Truth , he went upon a certain expectation of those inconveniences , which to ingenuous natures are of all most terrible . So that though there were much weaknesse in some of these alterations , yet certainly there was no wickednesse . Neither does he yeeld his weaknesse altogether without apology , seeing his deductions were rationall , and out of Principles commonly received by Protestants as well as Papists , and which by his education had got possession of his understanding . 104 Ad § . 40. 41. D. Potter p. 81. of his booke , to prove our separation from you , not only lawfull but necessary , hath these words , Although we confesse the Church of Rome ( in some sense ) to be a true Church , and her error ( to some men ) not damnable ; yet for us who are convinced in conscience , that she erres in many things , a necessity lies upon us , even under pain of damnation , to forsake her in those errors . He meanes not , in the belief of those errors ; for that is presupposed to be done already : for whosoever is convinc'd in conscience that she erres , hath for matter of belief forsaken , that is , ceased to believe those errors . This therefore he meant not , nor could not meane : but that whosoever is convinc'd in conscience , that the Church of Rome erres , cannot with a good conscience but forsake her in the profession and practice of these errors : and the reason hereof is manifest ; because otherwise , he must professe what he believes not , and practise what he approves not . Which is no more then you selfe in thesi have diverse times affirmed . For in one place you say , It is unlawfull to speak any the least untruth : Now he that professeth your Religion , and believes it not , what else doth he but live in a perpetuall lye ! Again in another , you have called them that professe one thing and believe another , a damned crew of dissembling Sycophants : And therefore in inveighing against Protestants for forsaking the Profession of these errors , the beleefe whereof they had already forsaken , what doe you but raile at them for not being a damned crew of dissembling Sycophants ? And lastly § . 42. of this chap. within three leaves after this , whereas D. Potter grants but only a necessity of peaceable externall obedience to the Declaration of the Church , though perhaps erroneous , ( provided it be in matter not of faith , but of opinions or Rites , ) condemning those men who by occasion of errors of this quality , disturbe the Churches peace , and cast off her communion : Vpon this occasion you come upon him with this bitter sarcasme , I thank you for your ingenuous confession , in recompence whereof I will doe a deed of Charity , by putting you in minde into what Labyrinths you are brought , by teaching that the Church may erre in some points of faith , and yet that it is not lawfull for any man to oppose his judgement or leave her Communion , though he have evidence of Scripture against her ! Will you have such a man dissemble against his Conscience , or externally deny Truth known to be contained in holy Scripture ? I Answer for him , no : It is not he but you , that would have men doe so : not he , who saies plainly , that whosoever is convinc'd in conscience that any Church erres , is bound under pain of damnation to forsake her in her Profession and practice of these errors : but you , who finde fault with him , and make long discourse against him , for thus Affirming . Not he who can easily winde himselfe out of your Imaginary Labyrinth , by telling you , that he no where denies it lawfull for any man to oppose any Church , erring in matter of faith , for that he speaks not of matters of faith at all , but only of Rites and Opinions . And in such matters , he saies indeed at first , It is not lawfull for any man to oppose his judgement to the publique : But he presently explaines himselfe by saying , not only that he may hold an opinion contrary to the Publique resolution , but besides that he may offer it to be considered of , ( so farre is he from requiring any sinfull dissimulation , ) Provided , he doe it with great Probability of Reason , very modestly and respectfully , and without separation from the Churches communion . It is not therefore in this case , opposing a mans private judgement to the publique simply , which the Doctor findes fault with : But the degree only and malice of this opposition , opposing it factiously . And not holding a mans own conceit , different from the Church absolutely , which here he censures : But a factious advancing it , and despising the Church , so farre as to cast off her Communion , because forsooth she erres in some opinion , or useth some inconvenient , though not impious rites and ceremonies . Little reason therefore have you to accuse him there , as if he required that men should dissemble against their conscience , or externally deny a truth known to be contained in holy Scripture . But certainly a great deale lesse , to quarrell with him , for saying ( which is all that here he saies , ) that men under pain of demnation , are not to dissemble , but if they be convinc'd in conscience , that your , or any other Church ( for the reason is alike for all , ) erres in many things , are of necessity to forsake that Church , in the Profession and practice of those errors . 105 But to consider your exception to this speech of the Doctors , somewhat more particularly : I say your whole discourse against it , is compounded of falsehoods and impertinencies . The first falsehood is , that he in these words avoucheth , that no learned Catholiques can be saved : Vnlesse you will suppose , that all learned Catholiques are convinc'd in conscience , that your Church erres in many things . It may well be fear'd that many are so convinc'd , and yet professe what they believe not . Many more have been , and have stifled their consciences , by thinking it an act of humility , to doe so . Many more would have beene , had they with liberty and indifference of judgement , examined the grounds of the Religion which they professe . But to think that all the Learned of your side , are actually convinc'd of errors in your Church , and yet will not forsake the profession of them , this is so great an uncharitablenesse , that I verily believe , D. Potter abhorres it . Your next falsehood is , That the Doctor affirmes , that you Catholiques want no meanes to Salvation : and that he judges the Roman errors not to be in themselves fundamentall or damnable . Which calumny I have very often confuted : and in this very place it is confuted by D. Potter , and confessed by your selfe . For in the beginning of this Answer you tell us , that the Doctor avouches of all Catholiques whom ignorance cannot excuse , that they cannot be saved . Certainly then he must needs esteeme them to want something necessary to Salvation . And then in the Doctors saying , it is remarkable that he confesses your errors to some men not damnable : which cleerely imports , that according to his judgement , they were damnable in themselves , though by accident to them who lived and died in invincible ignorance , and with repentance , they might prove not damnable . A third is , that these Assertions , the Roman Errors are in themselves not damnable , and yet it is damnable for me ( who know them to be errors , ) to hold and confesse them , are absolutely inconsistent ; which is false ; for be the matter what it will , yet for a man to tell a lye , especially in matter of Religion , cannot but be damnable . How much more then , to goe on in a course of lying by professing to believe these things divine Truths , which he verily believes to be falsehoods and fables ? A fourth is , that if we erred in thinking that your Church holds errors , this error or erroneous conscience might be rectifyed and deposed , by judging those errors not damnable . For what repugnance is there between these two suppositions , that you doe hold some errors , and that they are not damnable ? And if there be no repugnance between them , how can the beleefe of the latter remove or destroy , or if it be erroneous , rectify the belief of the former ? Nay seeing there is a manifest consent between them , how can it be avoided , but the belief of the latter , will maintaine and preserve the belief of the former ? For who can conjoyne in one braine not crackt , ( pardon me , if I speake to you in your own words , ) these Assertions : In the Roman Church there are errors not damnable , and , in the Roman Church there are no errors at all ? Or what sober understanding would ever think this a good collection , I esteeme the errors of the Roman Church not damnable , therefore I doe amisse to think that she erres at all ? If therefore you would have us alter our judgements , that your Church is erroneous , your only way is to shew , your doctrine consonant , at least not evidently repugnant to Scripture and Reason . For as for this device , this short cut , of perswading our selves that you hold no errours , because we believe your errors are not damnable , assure your selfe it will never hold . 106 A fift falsehood is , That we daily doe this favour for Protestants , you must mean ( if you speak consequently ) to judge they have no errors , because we judge they have none damnable . Which the world knowes to be most untrue . And for our continuing in their communion notwithstanding their errors , the justification hereof , is not so much , that their errors are not damnable : as that they require not the beliefe and profession of these errors , among the conditions of their communion . Which puts a main difference between them and you : because we may continue in their communion without professing to believe their opinions , but in yours we cannot . A sixt is , that according to the Doctrine of all Divines , there is any difference between a speculative perswasion of conscience , of the unlawfulnesse of any thing , and a practicall Dictamen that the same thing is unlawfull . For these are but diverse words signifying the same thing , neither is such a perswasion wholly speculative , but tending to practice : nor such a dictamē wholly practicall , but grounded upon speculation . A Seventh is , That Protestants did only conceive in speculation , that the Church of Rome erred in some doctrines , and had not also a practicall dictamen , that it was damnable for them to continue in the profession of these errors . An eighth is , that it is not lawfull to separate from any Churches communion , for errors not appertaining to the substance of Faith : which is not universally true , but with this exception , unlesse that Church requires the belief and profession of them . The ninth is , that D. Potter teacheth that Luther was bound to forsake the house of God , for an unnecessary light . Confuted manifestly by D. Potter in this very place , for by the house of God you mean the Roman Church , and of her the Doctor saies : that a necessity did lye upon him , even under pain of damnation , to forsake the Church of Rome in her errors . This sure is not to say , that he was obliged to forsake her , for an unnecessary light . The tenth is covertly vented in your intimation , that Luther and his followers were the proper cause of the Christian worlds combustion : Whereas indeed the true cause of this lamentable effect , was your violent persecution of them , for serving God according to their conscience , which if it be done to you , you condemne of horrible impiety , and therefore may not hope to be excused , if you doe it to others . 107 The eleaventh is , that our first reformers ought to have doubted whether their opinions were certain . Which is to say , that they ought to have doubted of the certainty of Scripture : which in formall and expresse termes , containes many of these opinions . And the reason of this assertion is very vaine : for though they had not an absolute infallibility promised unto them , yet may they be of some things infallibly certaine . As Euclide sure was not infallible , yet was he certain enough , that twice two were foure , and that every whole was greater then a part of that whole . And so though Calvin & Melancthō were not infallible in all things , yet they might and did know well enough , that your Latine Service was condemned by S. Paule , and that the communion in both kindes was taught by our Saviour . The twelfth and last is this , that your Church was in peaceable possession ( you must mean of her doctrine , and the Professors of it , ) and enjoyed prescription for many ages . For besides , that doctrine is not a thing that may be possessed : And the professors of it were the Church it selfe , and in nature of possessors , ( If we may speak improperly , ) rather then the thing possessed , with whom no man hath reason to be offended , if they think fit to quit their own possession : I say that the possession , which the governors of your Church held for some ages , of the party governed , was not peaceable , but got by fraude , and held by violence . 108 These are the Falshoods which in this answer offer themselves to any attentive Reader , and that which remaines is meere impertinence . As first , that a pretence of conscience will not serve to iustifie separation from being Schismaticall . Which is true : but little to the purpose , seeing it was not an erroneous perswasion , much lesse an Hypocriticall pretence , but a true and well grounded conviction of conscience , which D. Potter alleaged to justifie Protestants from being Schismaticall . And therefore though seditious men in Church and State , may pretend conscience , for a cloak of their rebellion : yet this I hope hinders not , but that an honest man ought to obey his rightly informed conscience , rather then the unjust commands of his tyrannous Superiours . Otherwise with what colour can you defend either your own refusing the oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy ? Or the ancient Martyrs , and Apostles , and Prophets , who oftentimes disobeyed the commands of men in authority , and for their disobedience made no other but this Apologie , Wee must obey God rather then men ? It is therefore most apparent that this answer must be meerly impertinent : seeing it will serve against the Martyrs and Apostles and Prophets , & even against your selues , as well as against Protestants . To as little purpose is your rule out of Lyrinensis against them that followed L●ther , seeing they pretend and are ready to justify , that they forsook not , with the Doctors , the faith , but only the corruption of the Church . As vain altogether is that which follows : That in cases of uncertainty we are not to leave our Superiour , or cast off his obedience , nor publiquely oppose his decrees . From whence it will follow very evidently , that seeing it is not a matter of faith , but a disputed question among you , whether the Oath of Allegiance be lawfull : that either you acknowledge not the King your Superiour , or doe against conscience , in opposing his and the kingdomes decree , requiring the taking of this Oath . This good use I say may very fairely bee made of it , and is by men of your own religion . But then it is so far from being a confutation , that it is rather a confirmation of D. Potters assertion . For hee that useth these words , doth he not plainly import ( and such was the case of Protestants , ) that we are to leaue our Superiours , to cast off obedience to them , and publiquely to oppose their Decrees , when we are certain ( as Protestants were , ) that what they command , God doth countermand ▪ Lastly , S. Cyprians example is against Protestants impertinently and even ridiculously alleaged . For what if S. Cyprian holding his opinion true but not necessary , condemned no man ( much lesse any Church ) for holding the contrary ? Yet me thinks this should lay no obligation upon Luther to doe so likewise : seeing he held his own opinions not onely true but also necessary , & the doctrine of the Roman Church not only false but damnable . And therefore seeing the condition and state of the parties censured by S. Cyprian and Luther was so different , no marvell though their censures also were different according to the supposed merit of the parties delinquent . For as for your obtruding again upon us , that we believe the points of difference not Fundamentall or nenessary , you have been often told that it is a calumny . We hold your errors as damnable in themselves as you doe ours , only by accident through invincible ignorance , we hope they are not unpardonable : and you also professe to think the same of ours . 109 Ad § 42. The former part of this discourse , grounded on D. Potters words p. 105. I haue already in passing examined & confuted : I adde in this place . 1. That though the Doctor say , It is not fit for any private man to oppose his iudgement to the publique , That is , his own judgement and bare authority : yet he denies not , but occasions may happen wherein it may be very warrantable , to oppose his reason or the authority of Scripture against it . And is not then to be esteem'd to oppose his own judgement to the publique , but the judgment of God to the judgement of men . Which his following words seem to import , He may offer his opinion to be considered of , so he do it with evidence or great probability of Scripture or reason . Secondly , I am to tell you that you haue no ground from him , to enterline his words with that interrogatory ( His own conceits , and yet grounded upon evidence of Scripture ? ) For these things are in his words opposed , and not confounded , and the latter , not intended for a repetition ( as you mistake it ) but for an Antithesis of the former . He may offer ( saith he ) his opinion to be considered of , so he doe it with evidence of Scripture . But if hee will factiously advance his own conceits , ( that is , say I , clean contrary to your glosse , ) Such as have not evident nor very probable ground in Scripture , ( for these conceits are properly his own ) he may iustly bee branded , &c. Now that this of the two is the better glosse , it is proved by your own interrogation . For that imputes absurdity to D. Potter , for calling them a mans own conceits , which were grounded upon evidence of Scripture . And therefore you have shewed little candour or equity , in fastning upon them this absurd construction . They not only bearing , but even requiring another more faire and more sensible . Every man ought to be presum'd to speak sense , rather then non-sense , coherently , rather then contradictiously , if his words be fairely capable of a better construction . For M. Hooker , if writing against Puritans , he had said something unawares that might give advantage to Papists it were not inexcusable : seeing it is a matter of such extreme difficulty , to hold such a temper in opposing one extreme opinion , as not to seem to favour the other . Yet if his words be rightly consider'd , there is nothing in them that will doe you any service . For though he saies that men are bound to doe whatsoever the sentence of finall decision shall determine , as it is plain men are bound to yeeld such an obedience to all Courts of civill judicature : yet he saies not , they are bound to think that determination lawfull , and that sentence just . Nay it is plain hee saies , that they must doe according to the Iudges sentence , though in their private opinion it seem uniust . As if I be cast wrongfully in a suit at law , and sentenced to pay an hundred pound , I am bound to pay the mony , yet I know no law of God or man , that binds me in conscience to acquit the Iudge of errour in his sentence . The question therefore being only what men ought to think , it is vain for you to tell us what M. Hooker saies at all . For M. Hooker , though an excellent man , was but a man. And much more vain , to tell us out of him , what men ought to doe , for point of externall obedience . When in the very same place , he supposeth and alloweth , that in their private opinion they may think , this sentence to which they yeeld a passive obedience , to swarve utterly from that which is right . If you will draw his words to such a construction , as if he had said , they must think the sentence of iudiciall and finall decision iust and right , though it seem in their private opinion to swarue utterly from what is right ; It is manifest you make him contradict himselfe , & make him say in effect , They must think thus , though at the same time they think the contrary . Neither is there any necessity , that hee must either acknowledge the universall infallibility of the Church , or driue men into dissembling against their conscience , seeing nothing hinders , but I may obey the sentence of a Iudge , paying the mony he awards me to pay , or forgoing the house or land which hee hath judged from me , and yet withall plainly professe , that in my conscience I conceive his judgement erroneous . To which purpose they haue a saying in France , that whosoever is cast in any cause , hath liberty for ten daies after , to rayle at his Iudges . 110 This answer to this place , the words themselves offered mee , even as they are alleaged by you : But upon perusall of the place in the Author himselfe , I finde that here , as elsewhere you and M. Brerely wrong him extremely . For mutilating his words , you make him say that absolutely , which he there expresly limits to some certain cases . In litigious and controverted causes of such a quality ( saith he ) the will of God , is to haue them doe whatsoever the sentence of iudiciall and finall decision shall determine . Obserue , I pray , He saies not absolutely and in all causes , this is the will of God : But only in litigious causes , of the quality of those whereof he there entreats . In such matters , as haue plaine Scripture or reason , neither for them nor against them , and wherein men are perswaded this or that way , Vpon their own only probable collection ; In such cases , This perswasion ( saith he ) ought to bee fully setled in mens hearts , that the will of God is , that they should not disobey the certain commands of their lawfull superiors , upon uncertain grounds : But doe that which the sentence of iudiciall and finall decision shall determine . For the purpose , a Question there is , whether a Surplice may be worne in Divine service : The authority of Superiors injoynes this Ceremony , and neither Scripture nor reason plainely forbids it . Sempronius notwithstanding , is by some inducements , which he confesses to be onely probable , lead to this perswasion that the thing is unlawfull . The quaere is , whether he ought for matter of practise follow the injunction of authority , or his own private and only probable perswasion ? M. Hooker resolves for the former , upon this ground , that the certain commands of the Church we liue in , are to be obeyed in all things , not certainly unlawfull . Which rule is your own , and by you extended to the commands of all Superiors , in the very next Section before this , in these words , In cases of uncertainty we are not to leaue our Superiour , nor cast off his obedience , or publiquely oppose his decrees . And yet if a man should conclude upon you , that either you make all Superiours universally infallible , or else driue men into perplexities and labyrinths of doing against conscience , I presume you would not think your self fairely dealt with ; but alleage , that your words are not extended to all cases , but limited to cases of uncertainty . As little therefore ought you to make this deduction from M. Hookers words , which are apparently also restrained to cases of uncertainty . For as for requiring a blind and an unlimited obedience , to Ecclesiasticall decisions universally and in all cases , even when plain Text or reason seemes to controule them , M. Hooker is as far from making such an Idol of Ecclesiasticall Authority , as the Puritans whom he writes against . I grant ( saith he , ) that proof derived from the authority of mans iudgement , is not able to worke that assurance which doth grow by a stronger proofe . And therefore although ten thousand Generall Councels would set down one and the same definitiue sentence , concerning any point of religion whatsoever , yet one demonstrative reason alleaged , or one manifest testimony cited from the word of God himselfe , to the contrary , could not choose , but over-weigh them all : in as much as for them to be deceived it is not impossible , it is that Demonstrative Reason , or Divine Testimony should deceiue . And again , Whereas it is thought , that especially with the Church , and those that are called , mans authority ought not to prevail : It must and doth prevaile even with them , yea with them especially , as far as equity requireth , and farther we maintain it not . For men to be tied and led by authority , as it were with a kinde of captivitie of iudgement , and though there bee reason to the contrary , not to listen to it , but to follow like beasts , the first in the Heard , this were brutish . Again , that authority , of men should prevaile with men either against or aboue reason , is no part of our beliefe . Companies of learned men , be they never so great and reverend , are to yeeld unto reason , the weight whereof , is no whit preiudic'd by the simplicity of his person which doth alleage it , but being found to be sound and good , the bare opinion of men to the contrary , must of necessitie stoop and giue place . Thus M. Hooker in his 7. Sect. of his Second Book : which place because it is far distant from that which is alleaged by you , the oversight of it might be excusable , did you not impute it to D. Potter as a fault , that he cites some clauses of some Books , without reading the whole . But besides , in that very Section , out of which you take this corrupted sentence , he hath very pregnant words to the same effect . As for the Orders established , sith equity and reason favour that which is in being , till orderly iudgement of decision be given against it , it is but iustice to exact of you , and perversnesse in you it should be to deny thereunto your willing obedience . Not that I iudge it a thing allowable , for men to obserue those Lawes , which in their hearts they are stedfastly perswaded , to bee against the Law of God : But your perswasion in this case , yee are all bound for the time to suspend , and in otherwise doing , yee offend against God , by troubling his Church without iust and necessary cause . Be it that there are some reasons inducing you to think hardly of our Lawes : Are those Reasons demonstrative , are they necessary , or but meer probabilities only ? An argument necessary and demonstratiue is such , as being proposed to any man and understood , the minde cannot choose but inwardly assent . Any one such reason dischargeth , I grant , the conscience , and setteth it at ful liberty . For the publique approbation given by the body of this whole Church , unto those things which are established , doth make it but probable that they are good . And therefore unto a necessary proofe that they are not good , it must giue place . This plain declaration of his judgement in this matter , this expresse limitation of his former resolution , hee makes in the very same Section , which affords your former quotation ; and therefore what Apology can bee made for you , and your store-house M. Brerely , for dissembling of it , I cannot possibly imagine . 111 D. Potter p. 131. saies , That the errors of the Donatists and Novatians , were not in themselves Heresies , nor could be made so by the Churches determination . But that the Churches intention was only to silence disputes , and to settle peace and unity in her government : which because they factiously opposed , they were justly esteemed Schismatiques . From hence you conclude , that the same condemnation must passe against the first Reformers , seeing they also opposed the commands of the Church , imposed on them , for silencing all disputes , and setling Peace and Vnity in government . But this collection is deceitfull , and the reason is : Because though the first Reformers , as well as the Donatists and Novatians , opposed herein the Commands of the Visible Church , that is , of a great part of it : yet the Reformers had reason , nay , necessity to doe so , the Church being then corrupted with damnable errors : which was not true of the Church , when it was opposed by the Novatians and Donatists . And therefore though they , and the Reformers , did the same action , yet doing it upon different grounds , it might in these merit applause , and in them condemnation . 112 Ad § . 43. The next § . hath in it some objections against Luthers person , but none against his cause , which alone I have undertaken to justify , & therefore I passe it over . Yet this I promise , that when you , or any of your side , shall publish a good defence , of all that your Popes have said & done , especially of them whom Bellarmin beleeves , in such a long train to have gone to the Divell : then you shall receive an ample Apology for all the actions and words of Luther . In the mean time , I hope all reasonable and equitable judges , will esteeme it not unpardonable in the great and Heroicall spirit of Luther , if being opposed , and perpetually baited with a world of Furies , hee were transported sometimes , and made somewhat furious . As for you , I desire you to be quiet , and to demand no more , whether God be wont to send such Furies to preach the Gospell ? Vnlesse you desire to heare of your killing of Kings : Massacring of Peoples ; Blowing up of Parliaments : and have a minde to be ask't , whether it bee probable , that that should bee Gods cause , which needs to bee maintained by such Divellish meanes ? 112 Ad § . 44. 45. In the two next Particles , which are all of this Chapter , that remain unspoken to , you spend a great deale of reading , & wit , & reason , against some men , who pretending to honour & believe the Doctrine & practice of the visible Church , ( you mean your own , ) and condemning their Forefathers who forsook her , say they would not have done so , yet remain divided from her Communion . Which men in my judgement cannot be defended . For if they believe the Doctrine of your Church , then must they believe this doctrine , that they are to returne to your Communion . And therefore if they doe not so , it cannot be avoided but they must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so I leave them , only I am to remember you , that these men cannot pretend to be Protestants , because they pretend to believe your doctrine , which is opposite in Diameter unto the doctrine of Protestants ; and therefore in a worke which you professe to have written meerly against Protestants , all this might have been spared . CHAP. VI. That Luther , and the rest of Protestants , have added Heresie unto Schisme . BECAVSE Vice is best knowne by the contrary Vertue , we cannot well determine what Heresie is , nor who be Heretiques , but by the opposite vertue of Faith , whose Nature being once understood as farre as belongs to our present purpose , we shall passe on with ease to the definition of Heresie , and so be able to discerne who be Heretiques . And this I intend to doe , not by entring into such particular Questions as are controverted between Catholiques and Protestants , but only by applying some generall grounds , either already proved , or else yeelded to , on all sides . 2 Almighty God having ordained Man to a supernaturall End of Beatitude by supernaturall meanes , it was requisite that his Vnderstanding should be enabled to apprehend that End , and meanes by a supernaturall knowledge . And because if such a knowledge were no more then probable , it could not be able sufficiently to overbeare our Will , and encounter with human probabilities , being backed with the strength of flesh and blood ; It was further necessary , that this supernaturall knowledge should be most certaine and infallible ; and that Faith should beleeue nothing more certainly then that it self is a most certain Beliefe , and so be able to beat downe all g●y probabilities of humane Opinion . And because the aforesaid Means and end of Beatificall Vision , do farre exceed the reach of naturall wit , the certainty of faith could not alwaies be joyned with such evidence of reason , as is wont to be found in the Principles , or Conclusions of humane naturall Sciences ; that so all flesh might not glory in the arme of flesh , but that he , who glories , should glory a in our Lord , Moreover , it was expedient that our belief , or assent to divine truths should not only be unknowne , or inevident by any humane discourse , but that absolutely also it should be obscure in it self , and ( ordinarily speaking ) be void even of supernaturall evidence ; that so we might have occasion to actuate , and testifie the obedience which we owe to our God , no● only by submitting our Will to this Will and Commands , but by subjecting also our Vnderstanding to this Wisdome and Words , captivating ( as the Apostle speaks ) the same Vnderstanding b to the Obedience of Faith : Which occasion had been wanting , if Almighty God had made ●●●ere to us , the truths which now are certainly , but not evidently presented to our minds . For where Truth doth manifestly open it self ; not obedience , but necessity commands our assent . For this reason , Divines teach , that the Objects of Faith being not evident to humane reason , it is in mans power not only to abstaine from believing , by suspending our Iudgments , or exercising no act one way or other ; but also to disbelieve , that is , to believe the contrary of that which Faith proposeth ; as the examples of innumerable Arch-heretiques can beare witnesse . This obscurity of faith we learne from holy Scripture , according to those words of the Apostle . Faith is the c substance of things to be hoped for , the argument of things not appearing . And , We see by a glasse d in a dark manner : but then face to face . And , accordingly S. Peter saith : Which you doe well attending unto , as to e a Candle shining in a dark place . 3 Faith being then obscure ( whereby it differeth from naturall Sciences ) and yet being most certain and infallible ( wherein it surpasseth humane Opinion ) it must relie upon some motive and ground , which may be able to give it certainty , and yet not release it from obscurity . For if this motive , ground , or formall Object of Faith , were any thing evidently presented to our understanding : and if also we did evidently know , that it had a necessary connection with the Articles which we believe , our assent to such Articles could not be obscure , but evident ; which , as we said , is against the nature of our Faith. If likewise the motive or ground of our faith were obscurely propounded to us , but were not in it selfe infallible , it would leave our assent in obscurity , but could not endue it with certainty . We must therefore for the ground of our Faith , find out a motive obscure to us , but most certain in it selfe , that the act of faith may remaine both obscure , and certain . Such a motive as this , can be no other but the divine authority of almighty God , revealing , or speaking those truths which our faith believes . For it is manifest , that God's infallible testimony may transfuse Certainty to our faith , and yet not draw it out of obscurity ; because no humane discourse , or demonstration can evince , that God revealeth any supernaturall Truth , since God had beene no lesse perfect then he is , although he had never revealed any of those objects which we now believe . 4 Neverthelesse , because Almighty God out of his infinite wisdome and sweetnesse , doth concurre with his Creatures in such sort as may be fit the temper , & exigence of their natures ; and because Man is a Creature endued with reason , God doth not exact of his Will or Vnderstanding any other then , as the Apostle saith , rationabile f obs●●uium , an Obedience , sweetned with good reason ; which could not so appeare , if our Vnderstanding were summoned to believe with certainty , things no way represented as infallible and certain . And ther●fore Almighty God obliging us under paine of eternall damnation to believe with greatest certainty divers verities , not knowne by the light of naturall reason , cannot sayl● to furnish our Vnderstanding , with such inducements , motives , and arguments as may sufficiently perswade any mind which is not partiall or passionate , that the objects which we believe , proceed from an Authority so Wise , that it cannot be deceived , so Good that it cannot deceive ; according to the words of David : Thy Testimonies are made g credible exceedingly . These inducements are by Divines , called argumēta credibilitatis , arguments of credibility , which though they cannot make us evidently see what we believe , yet they evidently convince that in true wisdome , & prudence , the objects of ●aith deserve credit , & ought to be accepted as things revealed by God. For without such reasons & inducemēts our judgment of faith could not be conceived prudent , holy Scripture telling us , that , he who soone h believes , is light of heart . By these arguments and inducements our Vnderstanding is both satisfied with evidence of credibility , and the objects of faith retaine their obscurity : because it is a different thing to bee evidently credible , and evidently true ; as those who were present at the Miracles wrough● by our blessed Saviour , and his Apostles , did not evidently see their doctrine to be true ( for then it had not been Faith but Science , and all had been necessitated to believe , which we see fell out otherwise , ) but they were evidently convinced , that the things confirmed by such Miracles , were most credible , and worthy to be imbraced as truths revealed by God. 5. These evident Arguments of Credibility are in great abundance found in the Visible Church of Christ , perpetually existing on earth . For , that there hath been a company of men professing such and such doctrines , we have from our next Predecessours , and these from theirs upward , till we come to the Apostles , and our Blessed Saviour ; which gradation is knowne by evidence of sense , by reading bookes , or hearing what one man delivers to another . And it is evident that there was neither cause , nor possibility , that men so distant in place , so different in temper , so repugnant in private ends , did , or could agree to tell one and the selfe same thing , if it had been but a fiction invented by themselves , as ancient Tertullian well saith : How is it likely that so many i and so great Churches should erre in one faith ? Among many events there is not one issue , the error of the Churches must needs have varied . But that which among many is found to be One , is not mistaken , but delivered . Dare then any body say , that they erred who delivered it ? With this never interrupted existence of the Church are joyned the many and great miracles wrought by men of that Congregation or Church ; the sanctity of the persons ; the renowned victories over so many persecutions , both of all sorts of men , and of the infernall spirits ; and lastly , the perpetuall existence of so holy a Church , being brought up to the Apostles themselves , she comes to partake of the same assurance of truth , which They by so many powerfull wayes , did communicate to their Doctrine , and to the Church of their times , together with the divine Certainty which they received from our Blessed Saviour himselfe , revealing to Man-kind what he heard from his Fathe● ; and so we conclude with Tertullian : We receive it from the Churches , the Churches k from the Apostles , the Apostles from Christ , Christ from his Father , And if we once interrupt this line of succession , most certainly made knowne by meanes of holy Tradition , we cannot conjoyn the present Church , and doctrine , with the Church , and doctrine of the Apostles , but must invent some new meanes , and arguments sufficient of themselves to find out , and prove a true Church , and faith independently of the preaching , and writing of the Apostles ; neither of which can be knowne but by Tradition ; as is truely observed by Tertullian saying : I will prescribe , that l there is no meanes to prove what the Apostles preached , but by the same Church which they founded . 6 Thus then we are to proceed : By evidence of manifest and incorrupt Tradition , I know that there hath alwaies been a never-interrupted Succession of men from the Apostles time , believing , professing , and practising such and such doctrines : By evident arguments of credibility , as Miracles , Sanc●●ty , Vnity , &c. and by all those wayes whereby the Apostles , and our Blessed Saviour himselfe confirmed their doctrine , we are assured that what the said never-interrupted Church proposeth , doth deserve to be accepted and acknowledged as a divine truth : By evidence of Sense , we see that the same Church proposeth such and such doctrines as divine truths , that is , as revealed and testified by Almighty God. By this divine Testimony we are infallibly assured of what we believe : and so the last period , ground , motive , and formall obiect of our Faith , is the inf●llible testimony of that supreme Verity , which neither can deceive , nor be deceived . 7 By this orderly deduction our Faith commeth to be endued with these qualities which we said were ●equisite thereto ; namely Certainty , Obscurity , and Prudence . Certainty proceeds from the infallible Testimony of God propounded and conveyed to our understanding by such a meane as i● infallible in it selfe , and to us is evidently knowne that it proposeth this point or that , and which can manifestly declare in what sense it proposeth them ; which meanes we have proved to be only the visible Church of Christ. Obscurity from the manner in which God speakes to Mankind , which ordinarily is such , that it doth not manifestly shew the person who speakes , nor the truth of the thing spoken . Prudence is not wanting , because our faith is accompanyed with so many arguments of Credibility , that every well disposed Vnderstanding , may and ought to judge , that the doctrines so confirmed deserve to be believed , as proceeding from divine Authority . 8. And thus from what hath been said , we may easily gather the particular nature , or definition of Faith. For , it is a voluntary , or free , infallible , obscure assent to some truth , because it is testifed by God , and is sufficiently propounded to us for such : which proposall is ordinarily made by the Visible Church of Christ. I say , Sufficiently proposed by the Church ; not that I purpose to dispute whether the proposall of the Church enter into the ●ormall Obiect , or moti●● of Faith : or whether an error be any heresie , formally and precisely , because it is against the proposition of the Church , as if such proposall were the formall Object of Faith , which D. Potter to no purpose a● all , labours so very hard to disprove : But I only affirme , that when the Church propounds any Truth , as revealed by God , we are assured that it is such indeed ; and so it instantly growes , to be a fit Object for Christian faith , which enclines and enables us to beleeve whatsoever is d●ely presented , as a thing revealed by Almighty God. And in the same manner we are sure , that whosoever opposeth any doctrine proposed by the Church , doth thereby contradict a truth , which is testified by God : As when any lawfull Superiour notifies his will , by the meanes , and as it were proposall of some faithfull messenger , the subject of such a Superiour in performing , or neglecting what is delivered by the Messenger , is said to obey , or disobey his owne lawfull Superiour . And therefore because the testimony of God is notified by the Church , we may , and we doe most truely say , that not to beleeve what the Church proposeth , is to deny God's holy word or testimony , signified to us by the Church , according to that saying of S. Irenae●s . We need not goe m to any other to seek the truth , which we may easily receive from the Church . 9. From this definition of faith we may also know what Heresie is , by taking the contrary termes , as Heresie is contrary to Faith , and saying : Heresie is a voluntary error against that which God hath revealed , and the Church hath proposed for such . Neither doth it import , whether the error concerne points in themselves great or small , fundamentall or not fundamentall . For more being required to an act of Vertue , then of Vice , if any truth though neuer so small may be believed by Faith as soone as we know it to be testified by divine revelation ; much more will it be a formall Heresie to deny any least point sufficiently propounded as a thing witnessed by God. 10. This divine Faith is divided into Actuall , and Habituall . Actuall faith , or faith actuated is when we are in act of consideration , and belife of some mystery of Faith ; for example , that our Saviour Christ , is true God , and Man , &c. Habituall faith , is that from which we are denominated Faithfull , or Believers , as by Actuall faith they are stiled , Believing . This Habit of faith is a Quality enabling us most firmly to believe Objects above humane discourse , and it remaineth permanently in our Soule , even when we are sleeping , or not thinking of any Mystery of Faith , This is the first among the three Theologicall Vertues . For Charity unites us to God , as he is infinitely Good in himselfe ; Hope tyes us to him , as he is unspeakably Good to us . Faith joynes us to him , as he is the Supreame immoveable Verity . Charity relies on his Goodnesse ; Hope on his Power ; Faith on his divine Wisdome . From hence it followeth , that Faith being one of the Vertues which Divines terme Infused ( that is , which cannot be acquired by human wit , or industry , but are in their Nature and Essence , supernaturall , ) it hath this property ; that it is not destroyed by little and little , ( contrarily to the Habits , called acquisiti , that is , gotten by human ende●vour , which as they are successiuely produced , so also are they lost successiuely , or by little and little ) but it must either be conserved entire , or wholly destroyed : And since it cannot stand entire with any one act which is directly contrary , it must be totally overthrowne , and as it were demolished , and razed by every such act . Wherefore , as Charity , or the Love of God is expelled from our soule by any one act of Hatred , or any other mortall sinne against his divine Majesty : and as Hope is destroyed by any one act of voluntary Desperation : so Faith must perish by any one act of Heresy ; because every such act is directly , and formally opposite therevnto . I know that some sinnes which ( as Divines speak ) are exgenere suo , in their kind , grievous and mortall , may be much lessened , and fall to be veniall , ob levitatem materiae ; because they may happen to be exercised in a matter of small consideration ; as for example , to steale a penny , is veniall , although Theft in his kind be a deadly sinne . But it is likewise true , that this Rule is not generall for all sorts of sinnes ; there being some so inexcusably wicked of their owne nature , that no smalnesse of matter , not paucity in number , can defend them from being deadly sinnes . For , to give an instance , what Blasphemy against God , or voluntary false Oath is not a deadly sinne ? Certainly , none at all , although the salvation of the whole world should depend upon swearing such a falshood . The li●e hapneth in our present case of Heresie , the iniquity whereof redounding to the injury of God's supreme wisdome and Goodnesse , is alwayes great , and enormous . They were no precious stones which David n picket out of the water , to encounter Goli●● ; & yet if a man take from the number but one , and say they were but foure , against the Scripture affirming them to have been fiue ; he is instantly guilty of a damnable sinne . Why ? Because by this subtraction of One , he doth deprive Gods word and Testimony of all credit and infallibility . For if either he could deceive , or be deceived in any one thing , it were but wisdome to suspect him in all . And seeing eve●y Here●y opposeth some Truth revealed by God ; it is no wonder that no one can be excused from deadly , and damnable sinne . For if voluntary Blasphemy , and Periury , which are opposite only to the in●used Morall Vertue of Religion , can never be excused from mortall sinne : much lesse can Heresy be excused , which opposeth the Theologicall Vertue of Faith. 11 If any object , that Schisme may seem to be a greater sinne then Heresy ; because the Ver●ue of Charity ( to which Schisme is opposite ) is greater then Faith , according to the Apostle , saying : Now there remain o Faith , Hope , Charity ; but the great●r of these is Charity . S. Thomas answeres in these words : Charity hath two Obiects , one principall , to wit , the 〈◊〉 p Goodnesse ; and another secondary , namely the good of our Neighbour ; But Schisme and other sinnes which are committed against our Neighbour , are opposite to Charity in respect of this secondary good , which is lesse , then the obiect of Faith , which is God , as he is the Prime Verity , on which Faith doth relie ; and therefore these sinnes are lesse then Infidelity . He takes Infidelity after a generall manner , as it comprehends Heresie , and other vices against Faith. 12. Having therefore sufficiently declared , wherein Heresy consists ; Let us come to prove that which we proposed in this Chapter . Where I desire , it be still remembred : That the visible Catholique Church cannot erre damnably , as D. Potter confesseth : And , that when Luther appeared , there was no other visible true Church of Christ disagreeing from the Roman , as we have demonstrated in the next precedent Chapter . 13 Now , that Luther and his followers cannot be excused from formall Heresy , I prove by these reasons . To oppose any truth propounded by the visible true Church as revealed by God , is formall Heresie , as we have shewed out of the definition of Heresie : But Luther , Calvin , and the rest did oppose divers truths propounded by the visible Church as revealed by God ; yea they did therefore oppose her , because shee propounded as divine revealed truths , things which they judged either to be fals , or human inventions : Therefore they committed formall Heresie . 14 Moreover , every Errour against any doctrine revealed by God , is damnable Heresie , whether the matter in it selfe be great or small , as I proved before : and therefore either the Protestants , or the Roman Church must be guilty of formall Heresy ; because one of them must erre against the word & testimony of God : but you grant ( perfor●e ) that the Roman Church doth not erre damnably , & I adde that she cannot erre damnably , because she is the truly Catholique Church , which you confesse cannot erre damnably : Therefore Protestants must be guilty of formall Heresy . 15 Besides , we have shewed that the visible Church is Iudge of Controversies , and therefore must be infallible in all her Proposals ; which being once supposed , it manifestly followeth , that to oppose what she delivereth as revealed by God , is not so much to oppose her , as God himself , and therefore cannot be excused from grievous Heresy . 16 Againe , if Luther were an Heretique , for those points wherein he disagreed from the Roman Church ; All they who agree with him in those very points , must likewise be Heretiques . Now , that Luther was a formall Heretique I demonstrate in this manner . To say , that Gods visible true Church is not universall , but confined to one only place or corner of the world , is according to your owne expresse words q properly Heresy , against that Article of the Creed , wherein we professe to beleeve the holy Catholique Church : And you brand Donatus with heresy , because he limited the universall Church to Africa . But it is manifest , and acknowledged by Luther himself , aud other chief Protestants that Luthers Reformation when it first began ( and much more for divers Ages before ) was not Vniversall , nor spread over the world , but was confined to that compasse of ground which did contain Luthers body . Therefore his Reformation cannot be excused from formall Heresy . If S. Augustine in those times said to the Donatists , There are innumerable testimonies r of holy Scripture in which it appeareth that the Church of Christ is not only in Africa , as these men with most impudent vanity doe rave , but that she is spread over the whole earth : much more may it be said ; It appeareth by innumerable testimonies of holy Scripture that the Church of Christ cannot be confined to the Ci●ty of Wittemberg , or to the place where Luthers feet stood , but must be spread over the whole world . It is therefore most impudent vanity , and dotage to limit her to Luthers Reformation . In another place also this holy Father writes no lesse effectually against Luther then against the Donatists . For having out of those words , In thy ●eed all Nations shall be blessed , proved that Gods Church must be universall , he saith : Why s doe you superadde , by saying that Christ remaines heire in no part of the earth , except where he may have Donatus for his Coheire . Give me this ( Vniversall ) Church if it be among you : shew your selves to all Nations , which we already shew to be blessed in this Seed : Give us this ( Church ) or else laying aside all fury , receive her from us . But it is evident , that Luther could not , when he said , At the beginning I was alone , give us an universall Church : Therefore happy had he been , if he had then , and his followers would now , receive her from us . And therefore we must conclude with the same holy Father , saying in another place of the universall Church : She hath this t most certain mark , that she cannot be bidden : She is then knowne to all Nations . The Sect of Donatus is unknowne to many Nations ; therefore that cannot be she . The Sect of Luther ( at least when he began , and much more before his beginning ) was unknowne to many Nations , therefore that cannot be she . 17 And that it may yet further appeare how perfectly Luther agreed with the Donatists : It is to be noted , that they never taught , that the Catholique Church ought not to extend it self further then that part of Africa , where their faction reigned , but only that in fact it was so confined , because all the rest of the Church was prophaned , by communicating with Caecili●●us , whom they falsly affirmed to have been ordained Bishop by those who were Traditours , or gives up of the Bible to the Persecutors to be burned : yea at that very time they had some of their Sect residing in Rome , and sent thither one Victor , a Bishop , under colour to take care of the Brethren in that Citty , but indeed as Baronius u observeth , that the world might account them Catholiques by communicating with the Bishop of Rome , to communicate with whom was ever taken by the Ancient Fathers as an assured signe of being a true Catholique . They had also , as S. Augustine 〈◊〉 , a pretended w Church in the house and territory of a Spanish Lady called Lucilla , who went flying out of the Catholique Church , because she had been justly checked by Caecilianus . And the same Saint speaking of the conference he had with Fortunius the Donatist , saith● Here did he first x attempt to affirme that his Communion was spread over the whole Earth &c. but because the thing was evidently false , they got out of this discourse by confusion of language whereby neverthelesse they sufficiently declared , that they did not hold , that the true Church ought necessarily to be confined to one place , but only by meere necessity were forced to yield that it was so in fact , because their Sect which they held to be the only true Church was not spread over the world : In which point Fortunius , and the rest were more modest , then he who should affirme that Luther's reformation in the very beginning was spread over the whole Earth ; being at that time by many degrees not so farre diffused as the Sect of the Dou●tists . I have no desire to prosecute the similitude of Protestants with Donatists , by remembring that the Sect of these men was begun and promoted by the passion of Lucilla ; and who is ignorant what influence two women , the Mother , and Daughter , ministred to Protestancy in England ? Nor will I stand to observe their very likenes of phrase with the Donatists , who called the Chaire of Rome , the Chaire of pestilence , and the Roman Church an Harlot , which is D. Potter's owne phrase , wherein he is lesse excusable then they , because he maintaineth her to be a true Church of Christ : and therefore let him duely ponder these words of S. Augustine against the D●●atists . If I persecute him iustly who detracts y from his Neighbour , why should I not persecute him who detracts from the Church of Christ , and saith , this is not she , but this is an Harlot ? And least of all , will I consider , whether you may not be well compared to one Ticonius a Donatist , who wrote against P●rmenianus likewise a Donatist , who blasphemed , that the Church of Christ had perished ( as you doe even in this your Book writ against some of your Protestant Brethren , or as you call them Zelo●s among you , who hold the very same or rather a worse Heresie ) and yet remained among them , even after Parmenianus had excommunicated him , ( as those your Zealous Brethren would proceed against you if it were in their power , ) and yet like Ticonius you remain in their Communion , and come not into that Church which is , hath been , and shall ever be universall : For which very cause S. Augustin complaines of Ticonius , that although he wrote against the Donatists , yet he was of an hart z so extreamly absurd , as not to forsake them altogether . And speaking of the same thing in another place he observes , that although Ti●onius did manifestly confute them who affirmed that the Church had perished ; yet , he saw not ( saith this holy Father ) that which in good consequence a he should have seen , that those Christians of Africa belonged to the Church spread over the whole world , who remained vnited , not with them who were divided from the communion and vnity of the same world , but with such as did communicate with the whole world . But Parmenianus , and the rest of the Donatists saw that consequence and resolved rather to settle their mind in obstinacy against the most manifest truth which Tico●us maintained , then by yeelding thereto , to be overcome by those Churches in Africa , which enioyed the Communion of that vnity which Ticonius defended , from which they had divided themselves . How fitly these words agree to Catholiques in England in respect of the Protestants , I desire the Reader to consider . But thes● and the like resemblances of Protestants to the Donatists , I willingly let passe , and only vrge the main point : That since Luthers Reformed Church was not in being for divers Centuries before Luther , and yet was ( because so forsooth they will needs have it ) in the Apostles time , they must of necessity affirme heretically with the Donatists , that the true and unspotted Church of Christ perished ; and that she which remained on earth was ( O b●asphemy● ) 〈◊〉 Harlot . Moreover the same heresy followes out of the doctrine of D. Potter , and other Protestants , that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall ; because we have shewed that every errour against any one revealed truth , is Heresy and damnable , whether the matter bee otherwise of it selfe , great or small . And how can the Church more truely be said to perish , then when she is permitted to maintaine a damnable Heresy ? Besides , we will hereafter prove , that by any act of Heresy all divine faith is lost ; and to imagine a true Church of faithfull persons without any faith , is as much as to fancy a living man without life . It is therefore cleere , that Donatist-like they hold that the Church of Christ perished : yea they are worse then the Donatists , who sa●d , that the Church remained at least in Africa ; whereas Protestants must of necessity be forced to grant , that for along space before Luther , she was no where at all . But let us goe forward to other reasons . 18 The holy Scripture , and Ancient Fathers doe assigne Separation from the Visible Church as a mark of Heresie ; according to that of S. Ioh● : They went out b from us . And , Some who c went out from us . And , Out of you shall d arise men speaking perverse things . And accordingly Vincentius Lyrinensis saith : Who ever e began heresies , who did not first separate himself from the Vniversality , Antiquity , and Consent of the Catholique Church ? But it is manifest , that when Luther appeared , there was no visible Church distinct from the Roman , out of which she could depart , as it is likewise well knowne that Luther , and his followers departed out of her : Therefore she is no way lyable to this Mark of Heresie , but Protestants cannot possibly avoid it . To this purpose S. Prosper hath these pithy words : A Christian communicating f with the universall Church is a Catholique , and he who is divided from her , is an Heretique ; and Antichrist . But Luther in his first Reformation could not communicate with the visible Catholique Church of those times , because he began his Reformation by opposing the supposed Errors of the then visible Church : we must therefore say with S. Prosper , that he was an Heretique &c. Which like-likewise is no lesse cleerely proved out of S. Cypri●n , saying : Not we ( g ) departed from them , but they from us , and since Heresies and Schismes are bred afterwards , while they make to themselves divers Conventicles , they have forsake● the head and origen of Truth . 19 And that we might not remain doubtfull what separation it is , which is the marke of Heresy , the ancient Fathers tell us more in particular , that it is from the Church of Rome , as it is the Sea of Peter . And therefore D. Potter need not to be so hot with us , because we say and write that the Church of Rome , in that sense as she is the Mother Church of all others , and with which all the rest agree , is truly called the Catholique Church . S. Hierome writing to Pope Damasus saith : I am in the Communion h of the Chaire of Peter ; I know that the Church is built upon that Rock Whosoever shall eat the Lambe out of this house , he is prophane . If any shall not be in the Arke of Noe , he shall perish in the time of the deluge : Whosoever doth not gather with thee , doth scatter , that is , he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist . And elsewhere , Which doth he i call his faith ? That of the Roman Church ? Or that which is contained in the Bookes of Origen ? If he answer , the Roman , then we are Catholiques , who have translated nothing of the error of Origen . And yet farther : Know thou , that the k Roman faith commended by the voice of the Apostle doth not receive these delusions , though an Angell should denounce otherwise , then it hath once been preached . S ▪ Ambrose recounting how his Brother Satyrus inquiring for a Church wherein to give thankes for his delivery from shipwrack , saith : he called unto him l the Bishop , neither did he esteeme any favour to be true , except that of the true faith , and he asked of him whether he agreed with the Catholique Bishops ; that is , with the Roman Church ? And having understood that he was a Schismatique , that is , separated from the Roman Church , he abstained from communicating with him . Where we see the priviledge of the Roman Church confirmed both by word and deed , by doctrine and practice . And the same Saint saith of the Roman Church : From thence the Rights m of Venerable Communion doe flow to all . S. Cyprian saith : They are bold n to saile to the Chaire of Peter , and to the principall Church , from whence Priestly Vnity hath sprung . Neither doe they consider , that they are Romans , whose faith was commended by the preaching of the Apostle , to whom falshood cannot have accesse . Where we see this holy Father joynes together the principall Church , and the Chaire of Peter ; and affirmeth that falsehood not only hath not had , but cannot have accesse to that Sea. And elsewhere : Thou wrotest that I should send o a Coppy of the same letters to Cornelius our Collegue , that laying aside all solicitude , he might now be assured that thou didst Communicate with him , that is , with the Catholique Church . What think you M. Doctor of these words ? Is it so strange a thing to take for one and the same thing , to communicate with the Church and Pope of Rome , and to communicate with the Catholique Church ! S. Ireneus saith : Because it were long to number the successions of all Churches , p we declaring the Tradition ( and faith preached to men , and comming to us by Tradition ) of the most great , most ancient , and most known Church , founded by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul ; which Tradition it hath from the Apostles , comming to us by succession of Bishops ; we confound all those who any way either by evill complacence of thēselves , or vain glory , or by blindnes , or ill Opinion doe gather otherwise th● they ought . For to this Church for a more powerfull Principality , it is necessary that all Churches resort , that is , all faithfull people of what place soever : in which ( Roman . Ch. ) the Tradition which is from the Apostles hath alwayes been conserved from those who are every where . S. Augustine saith : It grieves us q to see you so to lie cut off . Number the Priests even from the Sea of Peter ; and consider in that order of Fathers who succeeded to whom . She is the Rock which the proud Gates of Hell doe not overcome . And in another place , speaking of Caecilianus , he saith : He might contemne the conspiring r multitude of his Enemies , because he knew himselfe to be vnited , by Communicatory letters both to the Roman Church in which the Principality of the Sea Apostolique did alwayes florish ; and to other Countries from whence the Gospell came first into Africa . Ancient Tertullian saith : If thou be neere Italy , thou hast Rome , whose s Authority is neere at hand to us : a happy Church , into which the Apostles haue powred all Doctrine , together with their blood . S. Basill in a letter to the Bishop of Rome ●aith , In very deed that which was given t by our Lord to thy Piety , is worthy of that most excellent voice which proclaimed thee Blessed , to wit , that thou maist discern betwixt that which is counterfeit , and that which is lawfull and pure , and without any diminution mayest preach the Faith of our Ancestors . Maximinianus Bishop of Constantin●ple about twelue hundred yeares agoe , said : All the bounds of the earth who haue sincerely acknowledged our Lord , and Catholiques through the whole world professing the true Faith , look upon the power of the Bishop of Rome , as upon the sunne &c. For the Creator of the world , amongst all men of the world elected him , ( he speaks of S. Peter ) to whom he granted the Chaire of Doctour to be principally possessed by a perpetuall right of Priviledge ; that whosoever is desirous to know any Divine and profound thing , may hau● recourse to the Oracle , and Doctrine of this instruction . Iohn Patriarck of Constantinople , more then eleven hundred yeares agoe in an Epistle to Pope Hormisda , writeth thus : Because u the beginning of salvation is to conserue the rule of right Faith , and in no wise to swarue from the tradition of our fore-Fathers ; because the words of . our Lord cannot faile , saying : Thou art Peter , and upon this Rock I will build my Church ; the proofes of deeds haue made good those words , because in the Sea Apostolicall the Catholique Religion is alwaies conserved inviolable . And again : We promise hereafter not to recite in the sacred Mysteries the names of them who are excluded from the Communion of the Catholique Church , that is to say , who consent not fully with the Sea Apostolique . Many other Authorities of the ancient Fathers might be produced to this purpose ; but these may serue to shew , that both the Latin , and Greek Fathers held for a Note of being a Catholique , or an Heretique , to haue been united , or divided from the Sea of Rome . And I haue purposely alleaged only such Authorities of Fathers , as speak of the privileges of the Sea of Rome , as of things permanent , and depending on our Saviours promise to S , Peter , from which a generall rule , and ground ought to be taken for all Ages , because Heaven and Earth shall w passe , but the word of our Lord shall remain for ever . So that I here conclude , that seeing it is manifest that Luther and his followers divided themselues from the Sea of Rome , they beare the inseparable Mark of Heresie . 20 And though my meaning be not to treat the point of Ordination , or Succession in the Protestants Church , because the Fathers alleaged in the last reason , assigne Succession as one mark of the true Church ; I must not omit to say , that according to the grounds of Protestants themselves , they can neither pretend personall Succession of Bishops , nor Succession of doctrine . For whereas Succession of Bishops signifies a never-interrupted line of Persons , endued with an indelible Quality , which Divines call a Character , which cannot be taken away by deposition , degradation , or other meanes whatsoever ; and endued also with Iurisdiction and Authority to teach , to preach , to govern the Church by lawes , precepts , censures , &c. Protestants cannot pretend Succession in either of these . For ( besides that there was never Protestant Bishop before Luther , and that there can be no continuance of Succession , where there was no beginning to succeed , ) they commonly acknowledge no Character , and consequently must affirme that when their pretended Bishops or Priests are deprived of Iurisdiction , or degraded , they remain meer lay Persons as before their Ordination ; fulfilling what Tertullian objects as a mark of Heresie : To ●ay a Priest , to morrow x a Lay-man . For if here be no immoveable Character , their power of Order must consist only in Iurisdiction , and authoritie , or in a kinde of morall deputation to some function , which therefore may be taken away by the same power , by which it was given . Neither can they pretend Succession in Authority , or Iurisdiction . For all the Authority , or Iurisdiction which they had , was conferred by the Church of Rome , that is , by the Pope : Because the whole Church collectively doth not meet to ordain Bishops or Priests , or to giue them Authority . But according to their own doctrine , they believe that the Pope neither hath , or ought to haue any Iurisdiction , Power , Superiority , Preheminence , or Authority Ecclesiassicall , or Spirituall within this Realme , which they sweare even when they are ordained Bishops , Priests , and Deacons : How then can the Pope giue Iurisdiction where they sweare he neither hath , nor OVGHT to haue any ? Or if yet he had , how could they without Schisme withdraw themselves from his obedience ? Besides , the Roman Church never gaue them Authority to oppose Her , by whom it was given . But grant , their first Bishops had such Authority from the Church of Rome : after the decease of those men , who gaue Authority to their pretended Successours ? The Primate of England ? But from whom had he such Authority ? And after his decease , who shall confer Authority upon his Successours ? The temporall Magistrate ? King Henry , neither a Catholique , nor a Protestant ? King Edward , a Child ? Queen Elizabeth , a Woman ? An Infant of one houres Age , is true King in case of his Predecessours decease : But shall your Church lye fallow till that Infant-King , and green Head of the Church come to yeares of discretion ? Doe your Bishops , your Hierarchy , your Succession , your Sacraments , your being or not being Heretiques for want of Succession , depend on this new-found Supremacy-doctrine brought in by such a man meerly upon base occasions , and for shameful ends ; impugned by Calvin , and his followers ; derided by the Christian world ; and even by chiefe Protestants as D. Andrewes , Wotton , &c. not held for any necessary point of faith ? And from whō I pray you , had Bishops their Authority , when there were no Christian Kings ? Must the Greeke Patriarchs receiue spirituall Iurisdiction from the Greek Turk ? Did the Pope , by the Baptisme of Princes , loose the spirituall Power he formerly had of conferring spirituall Iurisdiction upon Bishops ? Hath the temporall Magistrate authority to preach , to assoile from sinnes , to inflict excommunications , and other Censures ? Why hath he not Power to excommunicate , as well as to dispense in Irregularity , as our late Soveraign Lord King Iames , either dispensed with the late Archbishop of Canterbury , or else gaue commission to some Bishops to doe it ? and since they were subject to their Primate , and not he to them , it is cleer , that they had no Power to dispense with him , but that power must proceed from the Prince , as Superiour to them all , and head of the Protestants Church in England . If he haue no such authority , how can he giue to others what himselfe hath not ? Your Ordination , or Consecration of Bishops and Priests imprinting no Character , can only consist in giving a Power , Authority , Iurisdiction , or ( as I said before ) some kind of Deputation to exercise Episcopall , or Priestly functions : If then , the temporall Magistrate conferres this Power &c. he can , nay he cannot chuse but Ordain , and consecrate Bishops , & Priests , as often as he confers Authority or Iurisdiction : and your Bishops as soone as they are designed & confirmed by the King , must ip so facto be Ordained and Consecrated by him without intervention of Bishops , or Matter and Form of Ordination : Which absurdities you will bee more unwilling to grant , then well able to avoid , if you will be true to your own doctrines . The Pope from whom originally you must beg your Succession of Bishops , never received , nor will , nor can acknowledge to receiue any Spiri●uall Iurisdiction from any Temporall Prince , and therefore if Iurisdiction must be derived from Princes , he hath none at all : and yet either you must acknowledge , that hee hath true spirituall Iurisdiction , or that yourselves can receiue none from him . 21 Moreover , this new Reformation , or Reformed Church of Protestants , will by them be pretended to be Catholique , or Vniversall , and not confined to England alone , as the Sect of the Donatists was to Africa : and therefore it must comprehend all the Reformed Churches in Germany , Holland , Scotland . France &c. In which number , they of Germany , Holland , and France are not governed by Bishops , nor regard any personall succession , unlesse of such fat-benefi●ed Bishops as Nicolaus Amsfordius , who was consecrated by Luther , ( though Luther himselfe was never Bishop ) as witnesseth y Dresserus . And though Scotland hath of late admitted some Bishops , I much doubt whether they hold them to be necessary , or of divine Institution ; and so their enforced admitting of them , doth not so much furnish that kingdome with personall Succession of Bishops , as it doth convince them to want Succession of Doctrine ; since in this their neglect of Bishops they disagree both from the milder Protestants of England , and the true Catholique Church : And by this want of a continued personall Succession of Bishops , they retaine the note of Schisme , and Heresy . So that the Church of Protestants , must either not be Vniversall , as being confined to England ; Or if you will needs comprehend all those Churches which want succession , you must confesse , that your Church doth not only communicate with Schismaticall and Hereticall Churches , but is also compounded of such Churches ; and your selves cannot avoid the note of Schismatiques , or Heretiques , if it were but for participating with such hereticall Churches . For it is impossible to retain Communion with the true Catholique Church , and yet agree with them who are divided from her by Schisme , or Heresy ; because that were to affirme , that for the selfe same time , they could be within , and without the Catholique Church , as proportionably I discoursed in the next precedent Chapter , concerning the communicating of moderate Protestants with those who maintaine that Heresy of the Latency and Invisibility of Gods Church , where I brought a place of S. Cyprian to this purpose , which the Reader may be pleased to review in the fift Chapter , and 17. Number . 22 But besides this defect in the personall Succession of Protestant Bishops , there is another of great moment ; which is , that they want the right Forme of ordaining Bishops , and Priests , because the manner which they use is so much different from that of the Roman Church ( at least according to the common opinion of Divines ) that it cannot be sufficient for the Essence of Ordination ; as I could demonstrate if this were the proper place of such a Treatise , and will not faile to doe if D. Potter give me occasion . In the mean time the Reader may be pleased to read the Author z cited here in the margent , and then compare the forme of our Ordination with that of Protestants ; and to remember , that if the forme which they use either in Consecrating Bishops , or in ordaining Priests be at least doubtfull , they can neither have undoubted Priests , nor Bishops . For Priests cannot be ordained but by true Bishops , nor can any be a true Bishop , unlesse he first be Priest. I say , their Ordination is at least doubtfull ; because that sufficeth for my present purpose . For Bishops and Priests , whose Ordination is notoriously known to be but doubtfull , are not to be esteemed Bishops , or Priests : and no man without Sacriledge can receive Sacraments from them ; all which they administer unlawfully : And ( if we except Baptisme , with manifest danger of invalidity , and with obligation to be at least conditionally repeated ) so Protestants must remain doubtfull of Remission of sinnes , of their Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy , and may not pretend to be a true Church , which cannot subsist without undoubted true Bishops and Priests , not without due administration of Sacraments , which ( according to Protestants ) is an essentiall note of the true Church . And it is a world to observe the proceeding of English Protestants in this point of their Ordinations . For first , Ann. 3. Edw. 6. cap. 2. when he was a Child about twelve yeares of age , It was enacted , that such a forme of making , and consecrating of Bishops and Priests , as by sixe Prelates , and sixe other to be appointed by the King , should be devised ( marke this word devised ) and set forth under the great Seale ; should be used , and none other . But after this Act was repealed 1. Mar. Sess. 2. in so much as that when afterward An. 6. & 7 Reg. Eliz. Bishop Bonner being endicted upon a certificate made by D. Horne a Protestant Bishop of Winchester , for his refusall of the Oath of Supremacy ; and he excepting against the endictment because D , Horne was no Bishop ; all the Iudges resolved that his exception was good , if indeed D. Horne was not Bishop , and they were all at a stand , till An. 8. Eliz cap. 1. the act of Edw. 6. was renewed and confirmed , with a particular proviso , that no man should be impeached or molested by meanes of any certificate by any Bishop or Archbishop made before this last Act. Whereby it is cleere , that they made some doubt of their own ordination , and that there is nothing but uncertainty in the whole businesse of their Ordination , which ( forsooth ) must depend upon sixe Prelats , the great Seale , Acts of Parliaments being contrary one to another , and the like . 23 But though they want Personall Succession , yet at least they have Succession of doctrine as they say , and pretend to prove , because they believe as the Apostles believed . This is to begg the Question , and to take what they may be sure , will never be granted . For if they want Personall Succession , and sleight Ecclesiasticall Tradition , how will they perswade any man , that they agree with the doctrine of the Apostles ? We have heard Tertullian saying : I will prescribe b against all Heretiques ) that there is no meanes to prove what the Apostles preached , but by the same Churches which they founded . And S. Irenaeus tels us that , We may c behold the Tradition of the Apostles in every Church , if men be desirous to hear the truth , and we can number them who were made Bishops by the Apostles in Churches , and their Successors even to us . And the same Father in another place saith : We ought to obey d those Priests who are in the Church , who have Succession from the Apostles , and who together with Succession in their Bishopricks have received the certain gift of truth . S. Austine saith : I am kept in the Church e by the succession of Priests from the very Sea of Peter the Apostle , to whom our Saviour after his Resurrection committed his sheep to be fed , even to the present Bishop . Origen to this purpose giveth us a good and wholsome Rule ( happy , if himselfe had followed the same ) in these excellent words : Since there be many who think f they believe the things which are of C●rist , and some are of different opinion from those who went before them ; let the preaching of the Church be kept , which is delivered by the Apostles by order of Succession , and remaines in the Church to this very day ; that only is to be believed for truth , which in nothing disagrees from the Tradition of the Church . In vain then doe these men brag of the doctrine of the Apostles , unles first they can demonstrate that they enjoyed a continued succession of Bishops from the Apostles , and can shew us a Church which , according to S. Austine , is deduced by undoubted SVCCESSION from the Sea g of the Apostles , even to the present Bishops . 23 But yet neverthelesse , suppose it were granted , that they agreed with the doctrine of the Apostles ; this were not sufficient to prove a Succession in Doctrine . For Succession , besides agreement or similitude , doth also require a never-interrupted conveying of such doctrine , from the time of the Apostles , till the daies of those persons , who challenge such a Succession . And so S. Augustine saith : We are to believe that ▪ Gospell which from the time of the Apostles , the h Church hath brought downe to our daies by a never-interrupted course of times , and by undoubted succession of connection . Now , that the Reformation begunne by Luther , was interrupted for divers ages before him , is manifest out of History , and by his endeavouring a Reformation , which must presuppose abuses . He cannot therefore pretend a continued Succession of that Doctrine which he fought to revive , and reduce to the knowledge , and practice of men . And they ought not to prove that they have Succession of doctrine , because they agree with the doctrine of the Apostles ; but contrarily we must inferre , that they agree not with the Apostles , because they cannot pretend a never-interrupted succession of doctrine from the times of the Apostles , till Luther . And here it is not amisse to note , that although the Waldenses , Wicliffe &c. had agreed with Protestants in all points of doctrine ; yet they could not bragge of Succession from them , because their doctrine hath not been free from interruption , which necessarily crosseth Succession . 24 And as want of Succession of Persons and Doctrine , cannot stand with that Vniversality of Time , which is inseparable from the Catholique Church ; so likewise the disagreeing Sect● which are dispersed throughout divers Countries , and Nations , cannot help towards that Vniversality of Place , wherewith the true Church must be endued : but rather such locall multiplication , doth more & more lay open their division , & want of Succession in Doctrine . For the excellent Observation of S. Augustine doth punctually agree with all modern Heretiques ; wherein this holy Father having cited these words out of the Prophet Ezechiell , i My flocks ▪ are dispersed upon the whole face of the Earth ; he addes this remarkable sentence : Not all Heretiques k are spread over the face of the Earth , and yet there are Heretiques spread over the whole face of the Earth , some here , some there , yet they are wanting in no place , they know not one another . One Sect for example in Africa , another Heresy in the East , another in Egypt , another in Mesopotamia . In divers places they are divers : one Mother , pride hath begot them all , as our own Mother the Catholique Church hath brought forth all faithfull people dispersed throughout the whole world . No wonder then , if Pride breed Dissention , and Charity Vnion . And in another place , applying to Heretiques those words of the Canticles : If thou know not l thy selfe , goe forth , and follow after the steps of the flocks , and feed thy kids , he saith : If thou know not thy selfe , goe m thou forth , I doe not cast thee out ; but goe thou out , that it may be said of thee : They went from us , but they were not of us . Goe thou out in the steps of the flocks ; not in my steps , but in the steps of the flocks , nor of one flock , but of divers and wandring flocks ; And feed thy Kids , not as Peter , to whom is said , Feed my sheepe : but seed thy Kids in the Tabernacles of the Pastors , not in the Tabernacle of the Pastor , where there is one flock , and one Pastor . In which words this holy Father doth set down the Markes of Heresy , to wit , going out from the Church , and Want of Vnity among themselves , which proceed from not acknowledging one supreme Visible Pastor and Head under Christ. And so it being Proved that Protestants having neither succession of Persons , nor Doctrine , nor Vniversality of Time , or Place , cannot avoid the just note of Heresy . 25 Hitherto we have brought arguments to prove , that Luther , and all Protestants are guilty of Heresy against the Negative Precept of faith , which obligeth us under pain of damnation , not to imbrace any one errour , contrary to any Truth sufficiently propounded , as testified or revealed by Almighty God. Which were enough to make good , that among Persons who disagree many one point of Faith , one part only can be saved : Yet we will now prove that Whosoever erreth in any one point , doth also break the Affirmative Precept of Faith , whereby we are obliged positively , to believe some revealed truth with an infallible , and supernaturall Faith , which is necessary to salvation , even necessitate finis , or me●ii , as Divines speak ; that is , so necessary that not any , after he is come to the use of Reason , was or can be saved without it , according to the words of the Apostle : Without Faith n it is impossible to please God. 26 In the beginning of this Chapter I shewed , that to Christian Catholique faith are required Certainty , Obscurtty , Prudence ; and Supernaturality ; All which Conditions we will proue to bee wanting in the beliefe of Protestants , even in those points which are true in themselu●s , and to which they yeeld assent , as hapeneth in all those particulars , wherein they agree with us ; from whence it will follow , that they wanting true Divine Faith , want meanes absolutely necessary to salvation . 27 And first , that their beliefe wanteth Certainty , I proue , because denying the Vniversall infallibility of the Church , can haue no certain groūnd to know what Objects are ●evealed , or testified by God. Holy Scripture is in it selfe most true and infallible ; but without the direction & declaration of the Church , we can neither haue certain means to know what Scripture is Canonicall ; nor what Translations be faithfull , nor what is the true meaning of Scripture : Every Protestant , as I suppose , is perswaded that his own opinions , be true , and that he hath used such means as are wont to be prescribed for understanding the Scripture , as Prayer , Conferring of divers Texts , &c. and yet their disagreements shew tha● some of them are deceaved : And therefore it is cleer that they haue no one certain ground whereon to rely for understanding of Scripture . And seeing they hold all the Articles of Faith , even concerning fundamentall points , upon the selfe same ground of Scripture , interpreted , not by the Churches Authority , but according to some other Rules , which as experience of their contradictions teach , doe sometimes faile ; it is cleer that the ground of their faith is infallible in no point at all . And albeit sometime it chance to hit on the truth , yet it is likewise apt to lead them to errour : As all Arch-heretiques believing some truths , & withall divers errours upon the same ground and motive , have indeed no true divine infallible faith , b●t only a fallible humane opinion , and perswasion . For if the ground upon which they rely were certain , it could never produce any errour . 28 Another cause of uncertainty in the faith of Protestants , must rise from their distinction of points fundamentall , and not fundamentall . For since they acknowledge , that every errour in fundamentall points destroyeth the substance of faith and yet cannot determine what points bee fundamentall ; it followeth that they must remain uncertain whether or no they be not in some fundamentall error , and so want the substance of faith , without which there can be no hope of Salvation . 29 And that he who erreth against any one revealed truth ( as certainly some Protestants must doe , because contradictory Propositions cannot both be true ) doth loose all Divine faith ; is a very true doctrine delivered by Catholique Divines , with so generall a consent , that the contrary is wont to be censured as temerarious . The Angelicall Doctor S. Thomas proposeth this Question : Whether o he who denieth one Article of faith , may retain faith in other Articles ? and resolveth that he cannot which he proveth , ( Argument● sed contra ) because , As deadly sin is opposits to Charity ; so to deny one Article of faith is opposite to faith . But Charity doth not remain with any one deadly sin ; therefore faith doth not remain after the deniall of any one Article of faith . Whereof he gives this farther reason : Because ( saith he ) the nature of every habit doth depend upon the formall Motiue and Obiect thereof , which Motiue being taken away , the nature of the habit cannot remain . But the formall Obiect of faith is the supreme truth as it is manifested in Scriptures , and in the doctrine of the Church , which proceeds from the same supreme verity . Whosoever therefore doth not rely upon the doctrine of the Church ( which proceeds from the supreme verity , manifested in Scripture ) as upon an infallible Rule , hee hath not the habit of faith , but belieues those things which belong to faith by some other me anes then by faith : as if one should remember some Conclusion , and not know the reason of that demonstration , it is cleer that hee hath not certain knowledge , but only Opinion . Now it is manifest , that hee who relies on the doctrine of the Church , as upon an infallible Rule , will yeeld his assent to all , that the Church teacheth . For if among those things , which she teacheth , he hold what he will , and doth not hold what he will not , hee doth not rely upon the doctrine of the Church , as upon an infallible Rule , but only upon his own will. And so it is cleer that an Heretique , who with pertinacity denieth one Article of faith , is not ready to follow the doctrine of the Church in all things : And therefore it is manifest , that whosoever is an Heretique in any one Article of faith , concerning other Articles , hath not saith , but a kind of Opinion , or his own will. Thus far . S. Thomas . And afterward : A man doth belieue q all the Articles of faith for one and the selfe same reason , to wit , for the Prime Verity proposed to us in the Scripture , understood aright according to the Doctrine of the Church : and therefore whosoever fals from this reason or motiue , is totally deprived of faith . From this true doctrine wee are to infer , that to retain , or want the substance of faith , doth not consist in the matter , or multitude of the Articles , but in the opposition against Gods divine testimony , which is involved in every least error against faith . And since some Protestants must needs erre , and that they haue no certain rule to knowe , why rather one then another ; it manifestly follows that none of them haue any Certainty for the substance of their faith in any one point . Moreover D. Potter , being forced to confesse that the Roman Church wants not the substance of faith , it follows that she doth not erre in any one point against faith , because as we haue seen out of S. Thomas , every such errour destroies the substance of faith . Now if the Roman Church did not erre in any one point of faith , it is manifest that Protestants erre in all those points wherein they are contrary to her . And this may suffice to prove that the faith of Protestants wants Infallibility . 30 And now for the second Condition of faith , I say : If Protestants haue Certainty , they want Obscurity , and so haue not that faith which , as the Apostle saith , is of things not appearing , or not necessi●ating our Vnderstanding to an assent . For the whole edifice of the faith of Protestants , is setled on these two Principles : These particular Books are Canonicall Scripture : And the sense and meaning of these Canonicall Scriptures , is cleer and evident , at least in all points necessary to Salvation . Now , these Principles being once supposed , it cleerly followeth , that what Protestants belieue as necessary to salvation , is evidently known by them to be true , by this argument : It is certain and evident , that whatsoever is contained in the word of God , is true . But it is certain and evident , that these Books in particular are the word of God : Therefore it is certaine and evident , that whatsoever is contained in these Books is true . Which Conclusion I take for a Maior in a second Argument , and say thus : It is certain and evident that whatsoever is contained in these Books is true : but it is certain and evident , that such particular Articles ( for example , the Trinity , Incarnation , Originall sin , &c. ) are contained in these Books : Therefore it is certain and evident , that these particular Objects are true . Neither will it avail you to say , that the said Principles are not evident by naturall discourse , but onely to the eye of reason cleered by grace , as you speak . For supernaturall evidence , no lesse ( yea rather more ) drawes and excludes obscurity , then naturall evidence doth : neither can the party so enlightned be said voluntarily to captivate his understanding to that light , but rather his understanding is by a necessity made captive , and forced not to disbelieve , what is presented by so cleare a light : And therefore your imaginary faith is not the true faith defined by the Apostle , but an invention of your own . 31 That the faith of Protestants wanteth the third Condition which was Prudence , is deduced from all that hitherto hath been said . What wisdome was it , to forsake a Church confessedly very ancient , and besides which , there could be demonstrated no other visible Church of Christ upon earth ? A Church acknowledged to want nothing necessary to Salvation ; endued with Succession of Bishops , with Visibility and Vniversality of Time and Place ; A Church which if it bee not the true Church , her enemies cannot pretend to have any Church , Ordination , Scriptures , Succession , &c. and are forced for their own sake , to maintain her perpetuall Existence , and Being ! To leave , I say , such a Church , and frame a Community , without either Vnity , or means to procure it ; a Church which at Luthers first revolt had no larger extent then where his body was ; A Church without Vniversality of place or Time ; A Church which can pretend no Visibility , or Being , except only in that former Church which it opposeth ▪ A Church void of Succession of Persons o● Doctrine ? What wisedome was it to follow such men as Luther , in an opposition against the visible Church of Christ , begun upon meer passion ? What wisdome is it to receive from Vs , a Church , Ordination , Scriptures , Personall Succession , and not Succession of Doctrine ? Is not this to verifie the name of Heresie , which signifieth Election or Choice ? Whereby they cannot avoid that note of Imprudency , ( or as S. Augustine calls it ) Foolishnesse , set down by him against the Manichees ; and by me recited before . I would not ( saith he ) belieue r the Gospell , unlesse the Authority of the Church did moue me . Those therefore whom I obeyed , saying , Belieue the Gospel , why should I not obey the same mē saying to me , Doe not belieue Manichaeus ( Luther , Calvin , &c. ) Choose what thou pleasest : If thou say , Belieue the Catholiques ; they warne me not to belieue thee . Wherefore if I belieue them , I cannot belieue thee . If thou say , Doe not belieue the Catholiques ; thou shalt not doe well , in forcing me to the faith of Manichaeus , because by the Preaching of Catholiques , I believed the Gospell it selfe . If thou say ; you did well to belieue them ( Catholiques ) commending the Gospell , but you did not well to belieue them , discommending Manichaeus ; dost thou think me so very FOOLISH , that without any reason at all , I should belieue what thou wilt , and not belieue , what thou wilt not ? Nay this holy Father is not content to call it Foolishnesse , but meer Ma●nesse , in these words : Why should I not most diligently enquire s what Christ commanded of those before all others , by whose Authority I was moved to belieue , that Christ commanded any good thing ? Canst thou better declare to me , what he said , whom I would not haue thought to haue been , or to be , if the Beliefe thereof had been recommended by thee to me ? Th● therefore I believed by fame , strengthned with Celebrity , Consent , Antiquitie . But every one may see that you , so few , so turbulent , so new : can produce nothing which deserues Authority . What MADNESSE is this ? Belieue them ( Catholiques ) that we ought to belieue Christ ; but learne of us what Christ said . Why I beseech thee ? Surely if they ( Catholiques ) were not at all , and could not teach mee any thing , I would more easily perswade my selfe , that I were not to belieue Christ , then I should learne any thing concerning him from other then those , by whom I believed him . Lastly , I aske what wisedome it could bee to leaue all visible Churches ; and consequently the true Catholique Church of Christ , which you confesse cannot erre in points necessary to salvation , and the Roman Church which you grant doth not erre in fundamentalls , and follow private men who may erre even in points necessary to salvation ? Especially if we adde , that when Luther rose , there was no visible true Catholique Church besides that of Rome , and them who agreed with her ; in which sense , she was , and is , the only true Church of Christ ; and not capable of any Error in faith . Nay , even Luther , who first opposed the Roman Church , yet comming to dispute against other Heretiques , he is forced to give the Lye both to his own words and deeds , in saying : We freely confesse t that in the Papacy there are many good things , worthy the name of Christian , which have come from them to us . Namely , we confesse that in the Papacy there is true Scripture , true Baptisme ; the true Sacrament of the Altar , the true keys for remission of sinnes , the true office of Preaching , true Catechisme , as our Lords Prayer , Ten Commandements , Articles of faith &c. And afterward : I avouch , that under the Papacy there is true Christianity , yea the Kernell and Marrow of Christianity , and many pious and great Saints . And again he affirmeth , that the Church of Rome hath the true Spirit , Gospells , Faith , Baptisme , Sacraments , the Keyes , the Office of Preaching , Prayer , Holy Scripture , and whatsoever Christianity ought to have . And a little before : I heare and see that they bring in Anabaptisme only to this end , that they may spight the Pope , as men that will receive nothing from Antichrist ; no otherwise then the Sacramentaries doe , who therefore believe only Bread and Wine to be in the Sacrament , meerely in hatred against the Bishop of Rome ; and they think that by this meanes they shall overcome the Papacy . Verily these men rely upon a weak ground , for by this meanes they must deny the whole Scripture , and the Office of Preaching . For we have all these things from the Pope ; otherwise we must goe make a new Scripture . O Truth , more forcible ( as S. Austine saies ) to wring out x Confession , then is any racke , or torment ! And so we may truly say with Moyses : Inimici nostri sunt Iudices : Our very Enemies give y sentence for us . 32 Lastly , since your faith wanteth Certainty , and Prudence , it is easy to inferre that it wants the fourth Condition , Supernaturality . For being but an Humane perswasion , or Opinion , it is not in nature , or Essence Supernaturall . And being imprudent , and rash , it cannot proceed from divine Motion and grace ; and therefore it is neither supernaturall in it selfe , nor in the cause from which it proceedeth . 33 Since therefore we have proved , that whosoever erres against any one point of faith , looseth all divine faith , even concerning those other Articles wherein he doth not erre ; and that although he could still retaine true faith for some points , yet any one errour in whatsoever other matter concerning faith , is a grievous sinne ; it cleerely followes , that when two or more hold different doctrines concerning faith and Religion , there can be but one Part saved . For declaring of which truth , if Catholiques be charged with Want of Charity , and Modesty , and be accused of rashnesse , ambition , and fury , as D. Potter is very free in this kind ; I desire every one to ponder the words of S. Chrysostome , who teacheth , that every least errour overthrowes all faith , and whosoever is guilty thereof , is in the Church , like one , who in the Common wealth forgeth false come . Let them heare ( saith this holy Father ) ▪ what S. Paul saith : Namely , that they who brought in some small errour z had overthrown the Gospell . For , to shew how a small thing ill mingled doth corrupt the whole , he said , that the Gospell was subverted . For as he who clips a little of the stamp from the Kings mony , makes the whole piece of no value : so whosoever takes away the least particle of sound faith , is wholly corrupted , alwaies going from that beginning to worse things . Where then are they , who condemne us as contentious persons , because we cannot agree with Heretiques , and doe often say , that there is no difference betwixt us and them , but that our disagreement proceeds from Ambition to dominere ? And thus having shewed that Protestants want true Faith , it remaineth that , according to my first designe , I examine whether they doe not also want Charity , as it respects a mans selfe . THE ANSVVER TO THE SIXTH CHAPTER . That Protestants are not Heretiques . HE that will accuse any one man , much more any great multitude of men of any great and horrible crime , should in all reason and justice take care that the greatnesse of his evidence doe equall , if not exceed the quality of the crime . And such an accusation you would here make shew of , by pretending , first , to lay such grounds of it , as are either already proved , or else yeelded on all sides : and after to raise a firme and stable structure of convincing arguments upon them . But both these I find to be meere and vaine pretences , and having considered this Chapter also without prejudice or passion , as I did the former , I am enforc'd by the light of Truth , to pronounce your whole discourse , a painted and ruinous Building upon a weak & sandy Foundation . 2 Ad § . 2. 3. First for your grounds , a great part of thē , is falsely said to be either proved or granted . It is true indeed that Man by his naturall wit or industry could never have attained to the knowledge of Gods will to give him a supernaturall and eternall happinesse , nor of the meanes by which his pleasure was to bestow this happinesse upon him . And therefore your first ground is good , That it was requisite his understanding should be enabled to apprehend that end and meanes by a knowledge supernaturall . I say this is good , if you mean by knowledge , an apprehension or beliefe . But if you take the word properly and exactly , it is both false , for faith is not knowledge , no more then three is foure , but eminently contained in it , so that he that knowes , believes , and something more , but he that believes many times doe not know , nay if he doth barely and meerely believe , he doth never know : and besides it is retracted by your selfe presently , where you require , That the object of faith must be both naturally and supernaturally unknown . And againe in the next page , where you say , Faith differs from science in regard of the objects obscurity . For that science and knowledge properly taken are Synonimous termes , and that a knowledge of a thing absolutely unknown is a plain implicancy , I think are things so plain , that you will not require any proofe of them . 3 But then whereas you adde , that if such a knowledge were no more then probable , it could not be able sufficiently to over beare our will , and encounter with humane probabilities , being backed with the strength of flesh and bloud , and therefore conclude , that it was farther necessary , that this supernaturall knowledge should be most certain and infallible : To this I answere , that I doe heartily acknowledge and believe the Articles of our faith be in themselves Truths , as certain and infallible as the very common Principles of Geometry and Metaphysicks . But that there is required of us a knowledge of them , and an adherence to them , as certain as that of sense or science , that such a certainty is required of us under pain of damnation , so that no man can hope to be in the state of Salvation , but he that findes in himselfe such a degree of faith , such a strength of adherence : This I have already demonstrated to be a great errour , and of dangerous and pernitious consequence . And because I am more and more confirm'd in my perswasion that the truth which I there delivered , is of great and singular use , I will here confirme it with more reasons . And to satisfy you that this is no singularity of my own , my Margent presents you with a a Protestant Divine of great authority , and no way singular in his opinions , who hath long since preached and justified the same doctrine . 4 I say that every Text of Scripture which makes mention of any that were weake , or of any that were strong in faith : of any that were of litle , or any that were of great faith : of any that abounded , or any that were rich in faith : of encreasing , growing , rooting , grounding , establishing , confirming in faith : Every such Text , is a demonstrative refutation of this vain fancy : proving that faith , even true and saving faith , is not a thing consisting in such an indivisible point of perfection as you make it , but capable of augmentation and diminution . Every Praier you make to God to encrease your faith ( or if you conceive such a prayer derogatory from the perfection of your faith , ) The Apostles praying to Christ to encrease their faith , is a convincing argument of the same conclusion . Moreover if this doctrine of yours were true , then seeing not any the least doubting can consist with a most infallible certainty , it will follow that every least doubting in any matter of faith , though resisted and involuntary , is a damnable sinne , absolutely destructive , so long as it lasts , of all true and saving faith : which you are so farre from granting , that you make it no sinne at all , but only an occasion of merit : and if you should esteeme it a sinne , then must you acknowledge , contrary to your owne Principles , that there are Actuall sinnes meerely involuntary . The same is furthermore invincibly confirmed by every deliberate sinne that any Christian commits ; by any progresse in Charity that he makes . For seeing , as S. Iohn assures us , our faith is the victory which overcomes the world , certainly if the faith of all true Believers were perfect , ( and if true faith be capable of no imperfection , if all faith be a knowledge most certain and infallible , all faith must be perfect , for the most imperfect that is , according to your doctrine , if it be true , must be most certain , and sure the most perfect that is , cannot be more then most certain , ) then certainly their victory over the World , and therefore over the flesh , and therefore over sinne , must of necessity be perfect , and so it should be impossible for any true believer to commit any deliberate sinne , and therefore he that commits any sinne , must not think himselfe a true believer . Besides seeing faith worketh by Charity , and Charity is the effect of faith : certainly if the cause were perfect , the effect would be perfect , and consequently as you make no degrees in faith , so there would be none in charity , and so no man could possibly make any progresse in it , but all true believers should be equally in Charity , as in faith you make them equall : & from thence it would follow unavoidably , that whosoever findes in himselfe any true faith , must presently perswade himselfe that he is perfect in Charity : and whosoever on the other side , discovers in his charity any imperfection , must not believe that he hath any true faith . These you see are strange and portentous consequences , and yet the deduction of them from your doctrine is cleere and apparent ; which shewes this doctrine of yours , which you would fain have true , that there might be some necessity of your Churches infallibility , to be indeed plainly repugnant not only to Truth but even to all Religion and Piety , & fit for nothing but to make men negligent of making any progresse in faith or Charity . And therefore I must entreat and adjure you either to discover unto me ( which I take God to witnesse I cannot perceive , ) some fallacy in my reasons against it , or never hereafter to open your mouth in defence of it . 5 As for that one single reason which you produce to confirm it , it will appeare upon examination to be resolved finally into a groundlesse Assertion of your own , contrary to all Truth and experience , and that is , That no degree of faith , lesse then a most certaine and infallible knowledge , can bee able sufficiently to overbeare our will and encovnter with humane probabilities , being backt with the strength of Flesh and Blood. For who sees not that many millions in the world forgoe many times their present ease and pleasure , undergoe great and toylsome labours , encounter great difficulties , adventure vpon great dangers , and all this not upon any certain expectation , but upon a probable hope of some future gain and commodity , and that not infinite and eternall , but finite and temporall ? Who sees not that many men abstain from many things they exceedingly desire , not upon any certain assurance , but a probable feare of danger that may come after ? What man ever was there so madly in loue with a present penny , but that hee would willingly spend it upon any litle hope that by doing so hee might gain an hundred thousand pound ? And I would fain know what gay probabilities you could devise to disswade him from this Resolution . And if you can devise none , what reason then , or sense is there , but that a probable hope of infinite and eternall happinesse , provided for all those that obey Christ Iesus , and much more a firme faith , though not so certain , in some sort , as sense or science , may be able to sway our will to obedience , and encounter with all those temptations which Flesh and Blood can suggest to avert us from it ? Men may therefore talke their pleasure of an absolute and most infallible certainty , but did they generally believe that obedience to Christ were the only way to present and eternall felicity , but as firmly and undoubtedly as that there is such a Citty as Constantinople , nay but as much as Caesars Commentaries , or the History of Salust , I believe the liues of most men , both Papists and Protestants would be better then they are . Thus therefore out of your own words I argue against you : He that requires to true faith , an absolute and infallible certainty , for this onely Reason because any lesse degree could not be able to overbeare our will , &c. imports , that if a lesse degree of faith were able to doe this , then a lesse degree of faith may be true and divine and saving Faith : But experience shews , and reason confirmes , that a firm faith , though not so certain as sense or science , may be able to encounter and overcome our will and affections : And therefore it followes from your own reason , that faith which is not a most certain and infallible knowledge may be true and divine and saving faith . 6 All these Reasons I haue imployed to shew that such a most certain and infallible faith as here you talk of , is not so necessary , but that without such a high degree of it , it is possible to please God. And therefore the Doctrines delivered by you § 25. are most presumptuous and uncharitable : viz : That such a most certain and infallible faith is necessary to salvation , necessitate Finis , or Medii , so necessary , that after a man is come to the use of reason , no man ever was or can bee saved without it . Wherein you boldly intrude into the judgement seat of God , & damne men for breaking Lawes , not of God's , but your own making . But withall , you cleerly contradict your selfe , not only where you affirm , That your faith depends finally upon the Tradition of Age to Age , of Father to Sonne , which cannot be a fit ground , but onely for a Morall Assurance ; nor only , where you pretend , that not alone Hearing and Seeing , but also Histories , Letters , Relations of many ( which certainly are things not certain and infallible , ) are yet foundations good enough to support your faith ; Which Doctrine , if it were good and allowable , Protestants might then hope that their Histories and Letters and Relations might also passe for means sufficient of a sufficient Certainty , and that they should not bee excluded from Salvation for want of such a Certainty . But indeed the pressure of the present difficulty compell'd you to speak here , what I believe you wil not justify , and with a pretty tergiversation to shew D. Potter your means of morall certainty ; whereas the Objection was that you had no means or possibility of infallible certainty , for which you are plainly at as great a losse and as far to seek as any of your Adversaries . And therefore it concernes you highly not to damne others for want of it , least you involue your selues in the same condemnation ; according to those terrible words of S. Paul , Inexcusabilis es , &c. In this therefore you plainly contradict your selfe . And lastly most plainly , in saying as you doe here , you contradict and retract your pretence of Charity to Protestants in the beginning of your Book : For there you make profession , that you haue no assurance but that Protestants dying Protestants , may possibly dye with contrition , and be saved : And here you are very peremptory , that they cannot but want a means absolutely necessary to salvation , and wanting that cannot but be damned . 7 The third Condition you require to faith , is , that our assent to divine Truths should not only be unknown and unevident by any humane discourse , but that absolutely also it should be obscure in it selfe , and ordinarily speaking , be void even of supernaturall evidence . Which words must have a very favourable constructiō , or else they will not be sense . For who can make any thing of these words taken properly , that faith must be an unknown unevident assent , or an assent absolutely obscure ? I had alwaies thought that known and unknown , obscure and evident had been affections , not of our Assent , but the Object of it , not of our beliefe , but the thing believed . For well may wee assent to a thing unknown , obscure , or unevident ; but that our assent it selfe should bee called therefore unknown or obscure , seems to me as great an impropriety , as if I should say , your sight were green or blew , because you see something that is so . In other places therefore I answer your words , but here I must answer your meaning : which I conceive to be , That it is necessary to faith that the Objects of it , the points which we belieue should not be so evidently certain , as to necessitate our understandings to an Assent , that so there might be some merit in faith , as you love to speak ( who will not receive no not from God himselfe , but a penny-worth for a penny , ) but as we , some obedience in it , which can hardly have place where there is no possibility of disobedience , as there is not where the understanding does all , and the will nothing . Now seeing the Religion of Protestants , though it be much more credible then yours , yet is not pretended to haue the absolute evidence of sense or demonstration ; therefore I might let this doctrine passe without exception , for any prejudice that can redound to us by it . But yet I must not forbeare to tell you , that your discourse proves indeed this condition requisite to the merit , but yet not to the essence of faith : without it faith were not an act of obedience , but yet faith may bee faith without it ; and this you must confesse , unlesse you will say either the Apostles believed not the whole Gospel which they preached , or that they were not eye-witnesses of a great part of it : unlesse you will question S. Iohn for saying that which we haue seen with our eyes , and which our hands haue handled , &c. declare we unto you : nay our Saviour himselfe for saying . Thomas because thou seest thou be lievest , Blessed are they which haue not seen and yet haue believed . Yet if you will say that in respect of the things which they saw , the Apostles assent was not pure & proper and meer faith , but somewhat more ; an assent containing faith but superadding to it , I will not contend with you , for it will bee a contention about words . But then again I must crave leave to tell you , that the requiring this condition , is in my judgement a plain revocation of the former . For had you made the matter of faith either naturally or supernaturally evident , it might have been a fitly attēpered & duely proportioned object for an absolute certainty naturall or supernaturall : But requiring as you doe , that faith should be an absolute knowledge of a thing not absolutely known , an infallible certainty of a thing which though it is in it selfe , yet is it not made appeare to us to be infallibly certain , to my understanding you speak impossibilities . And truly for one of your Religion to doe so , is but a good Decorum . For the matter and object of your Faith being so full of contradictions , a contradictictious faith may very well become a contradictious Religion . Your faith therefore , if you please to haue it so , let it be a free , necessitated , certain , uncertain , evident , obscure , prudent and foolish , naturall and supernaturall unnaturall assent . But they which are unwilling to believe non-sense themselves , or to perswade others to doe so , it is but reason they should make the faith wherewith they believe , an intelligible , compossible , consistent thing , and not define it by repugnances . Now nothing is more repugnant , then that a man should be required to give most certain credit unto that which cannot be made appeare most certainly credible : and if it appeare to him to be so , then is it not obscure that it is so . For if you speak of an acquired , rationall , discursive faith , certainly these Reasons which make the object seem credible , must be the cause of it , and consequently the strength and firmity of my assent must rise and fall together with the apparent credibility of the object . If you speak of a supernaturall infused faith , then you either suppose it infused by the former meanes , and then that which was said before must be said again : for whatsoever effect is wrought meerly by meanes , must beare proportion to , and cannot exceed the vertue of the meanes , by which it is wrought : As nothing by water can be made more cold then water , nor by fire more hot then fire , nor by honey more sweet then honey , nor by gall more bitter then gall : Or if you will suppose it infused without meanes , then that power which infuseth into the understanding assent which beares analogie to sight in the eye , must also infuse evidence , that is , Visibilitie into the Object : & look what degree of assent is infus'd into the understanding , at least the same degree of evidence must be infused into the Object . And for you to require a strength of credit beyond the appearance of the objects credibility , is all one as if you should require me to goe ten miles an houre upon a horse that will goe but fiue : to discern a man certainly through a myst or cloud that makes him not certainly discernable ; To heare a sound more cleerly then it is audible ; to understand a thing more fully then it is intelligible : and he that doth so , I may well expect that his next injunction will be , that I must see something that is invisible , heare something inaudible , understand something that is wholly unintelligible . For he that demands ten of me , knowing I haue but five , does in effect , as if he demanded five , knowing that I have none : and by like reason , you requiring that I should see things farther then they are visible , require I should see something invisible , and in requiring that I believe something more firmly then it is made to mee evidently credible , you require in effect that I believe something which appeares to me incredible , and while it does so . I deny not but that I am bound to believe the truth of many Texts of Scripture the sense whereof is to me obscure , & the truth of many Articles of faith the manner whereof is obscure , and to humane understandings incomprehensible ; But then it is to be observed , that not the sense of such Texts , not the manner of these things is that which I am bound to believe , but the truth of them . But that I should believe the truth of any thing , the truth whereof cannot bee made evident with an evidence proportionable to the degree of faith required of me , this I say for any man to be bound to , is unjust and unreasonable , because to doe it is impossible . 8 Ad § 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. & 12. Yet though I deny that it is required of us to be certain in the highest degree , infallibly certain of the truth of the things which we believe , for this were to know & not believe , neither is it possible unlesse our evidence of it , be it naturall or supernaturall , were of the highest degree ; yet I deny not but , that wee are to believe the Religion of Christ , we are and may be infallibly certain . For first , this is most certain , that we are in all things to doe according to wisdome and reason rather then against it . Secondly , this is as certain , That wisdome and Reason require that wee should believe these things which are by many degrees more credible and probable then the contrary . Thirdly , this is as certain , that to every man who considers impartially what great things may be said for the truth of Christianity , and what poore things they are which may be said against it , either for any other Religion or for none at all , it cannot but appear by many degrees more credible , that Christian Religiō , is true then the contrary . And from all these premises , this conclusion evidently followes , that it is infallibly certain , that we are firmely to beleeve the truth of Christian Religion . 9 Your discourse therefore touching the fourth requisite to faith which is Prudence , I admit so farre as to grant . 1. That if we were required to believe with certainty ( I mean a Morall certainty , ) things no way represented as infallible and certain , ( I mean morally , ) an unreasonable obedience were required of us . And so likewise were it , were we required to believe as absolutely certain , that which is no way represented to us as absolutely certain . 2. That whom God obligeth to believe any thing , he will not fail to furnish their understandings with such inducements , as are sufficient ( if they be not negligent or perverse ) to perswade them to believe . 3. That there is an abundance of Arguments exceedingly credible , inducing men to believe the Truth of Christianity : I say so credible , that though they cannot make us evidently see what we believe , yet they evidently convince that in true wisdome and prudence , the Articles of it deserve credit , and ought to be accepted as things revealed by God. 4. That without such reasons and inducements , our choice even of the true faith , is not to be commended as prudent , but to be condemned of rashnesse and levity . 10 But then for your making Prudence , not only a commendation of a believer , and a justification of his faith , but also essentiall to it , and part of the definition of it , in that questionlesse you were mistaken , and have done as if being to say what a man is , you should define him , A Reasonable creature that hath skill in Astronomy . For as all Astronomers are men , but all men are not Astronomers , and therefore Astronomy ought not to be put into the definition of men , where nothing should have place , but what agrees to all men : So though all that are truly wise ( that is , wise for eternity , ) will believe aright , yet many may believe aright which are not wise . I could wish with all my heart as Moses did , that all the Lords people could Prophesy : That all that believe the true Religion were able ( according to S. Peters injunction ) to give a reason of the hope that is in them , a reason why they hope for eternall happinesse by this way rather then any other ! neither doe I think it any great difficulty that men of ordinary capacities , if they would give their minde to it , might quickly be enabled to doe so . But should I affirme that all true Believers can doe so , I suppose it would be as much against experience and modesty , as it is against Truth and Charity , to say as you doe , that they which cannot doe so , either are not at all , or to no purpose true believers . And thus wee see that the foundations you build upon , are ruinous and deceitfull , and so unfit to support your Fabrick that they destroy one another . I come now to shew that your Arguments to prove Protestants Heretiques , are all of the same quality with your former grounds : which I will doe by opposing cleere and satisfying Answers in order to them . 11 Ad § . 13. To the first then , delivered by you § . 13. That Protestants must be Heretiques , because they opposed divers Truths propounded for divine by the Visible Church : I Answer , It is not Heresy to oppose any Truth propounded by the Church , but only such a Truth as is an essentiall part of the Gospell of Christ. 2. The Doctrines which Protestants opposed , were not Truths , but plain and impious falshoods : Neither thirdly , were they propounded as Truths by the Visible Church , but only by a Part of it , and that a corrupted Part. 12 Ad § . 14. The next Argument , in the next Particle tell us , That every error against any doctrine revealed by God is damnable Heresy : Now either Protestants or the Roman Church must erre against the word of God : But the Roman Church we grant ( perforce ) doth not erre damnably , neither can she , because she is the Catholique Church , which we ( you say ) confesse cannot erre damnably : Therefore Protestants must erre against Gods word , and consequently are guilty of formall Heresy . Whereunto I answer plainly , that there be in this argument almost as many falshoods as assertions . For neither is every error against any Doctrine revealed by God a damnable Heresy , unlesse it be revealed publiquely , & plainly with a command that all should beleeve it . 2. D. Potter no where grants , that the Errors of the Roman Church are not in themselves damnable , though he hopes by accident they may not actually damne some men amongst you : and this you your selfe confesse in divers places of your book , where you tell us , that he allowes no hope of Salvation to those amongst you , whom ignorance cannot excuse . 3. You beg the Question twice in taking for granted , First that the Roman Church is the truly Catholique Church ; which without much favour can hardly passe for a part of it : And againe , that the Catholique Church cannot fall into any error of it selfe damnable : for it may doe so , and still be the Catholique Church , if it retain those Truths which may be an antidote against the malignity of this error , to those that held it out of a simple un-affected ignorance . Lastly , though the thing be true , yet I might well require some proofe of it from you , that either Protestants or the Roman Church must erre against Gods word . For if their contradiction be your only reason , then also you or the Dominicans must be Heretiques , because you contradict one another as much as Protestants and Papists . 13 Ad § . 15. The third Argument pretends that you have shewed already , that the Visible Church is Iudge of Controversies , and therefore infalliable ; from whence you suppose that it followes , that to oppose her , is to oppose God. To which I answer , that you have said onely , and not shewed that the Visible Church is Iudge of Controversies . And indeed how can she be Iudge of them if she cannot decide them ? And how can she decide them , if it be a question whether she be Iudge of them ? That which is question'd it selfe , cannot with any sense be pretended to be fit to decide other questions ; and much lesse this question , whether it have Authority to judge and decide all questions ? 2. If she were Iudge , it would not follow that she were infallible , for we have many Iudges in our Courts of Iudicature , yet none infallible . Nay you cannot with any modesty deny , that every man in the world ought to judge for himselfe , what Religion is truest , and yet you will not say that every man is infallible . 3. If the Church were supposed Infallible , yet it would not follow at all , much lesse manifestly , that to oppose her declaration is to oppose God : unlesse you suppose also that as she is infallible , so by her opposers , she is known or believed to be so . Lastly , If all this were true ( as it is all most false ) yet were it to little purpose , seeing you have omitted to prove that the Visible Church is the Roman . 14 Ad § . 16. In stead of a fourth Argument this is presented to us , That if Luther were an Heretique , then they that agreed with him must be so . And that Luther was a formall Heretique , you endeavour to prove by this most formall Syllogisme ; To say the Visible Church is not Vniversall , is properly an Heresy : But Luthers Reformation was not Vniversall ; Therefore it cannot be excused from formall Heresy . Whereunto I Answer , first to the first part , that it is no way impossible that Luther , had he been the inventor and first broacher of a false Doctrine , ( as he was not ) might have been a formall Heretique , and yet that those who follow him may be only so materially and improperly , and indeed no Heretiques . Your own men out of S. Augustine distinguish between Haeretici & Haereticorum sequaces : And you your selfe though you pronounce the leaders among the Arrians formall Heretiques , yet confesse that Salvian was at least doubtfull whether these Arrians , who in simplicity followed their Teachers , might not be excused by ignorance . And about this suspension of his you also seeme suspended , for you neither approve nor condemne it . Secondly , to the second part I say , that had you not presumed upon our ignorance in Logick as well as Metaphysicks and Schoole Divinity , you would never have obtruded upon us this rope of sand for a formall Syllogisme . It is even Cosen German to this , To denie the Resurrection is properly an Heresie ; But Luthers Reformation was not Vniversall , Therefore it cannot be excused from formall Heresie ! Or to this , To say the Visible Church is not Vniversall is properly an Heresie : But the preaching of the Gospell at the beginning was not Vniversall ; therefore it cannot be excused from formall Heresie . For as he whose Reformation is but particular , may yet not denie the Resurrection , so may he also not denie the Churches Vniversality . And as the Apostles who preached the Gospell in the beginning , did beleeve the Church Vniversall , though their preaching at the beginning was not so : So Luther also might and did beleeve the Church Universall , though his Reformation were but particular . I say he did beleeve it Vniversall , even in your own sense , that is , Universall de iure , though not defacto . And as for Vniversality in fact , he beleeved the Church much more Vniversall then his reformation : For he did conceive ( as appeares by your own Allegations out of him ) that not only the Part reformed was the true Church , but also that they were Part of it who needed reformation . Neither did he ever pretend to make a new Church but to reform the old one . Thirdly and lastly , to the first proposition of this unsyllogisticall syllogisme , I answer , That to say the true Church is not alwaies defacto universall , is so far from being an Heresy , that it is a certaine truth knowne to all those that know the world , and what Religions possesse farre the greater part of it . Donatus therefore was not to blame , for saying , that the Church might possibly be confin'd to Africk ; but for saying without ground , that then it was so . And S. Austine , as he was in the right , in thinking that the Church was then extended farther then Africk ; so was he in the wrong if he thought that of necessity it alwaies must be so ; but most palpably mistakē in conceiving that it was then spread over the whole earth , & known to all nations , which if passion did not trouble you , & make you forget how lately almost halfe the world was discovered , and in what estate it was then found , you would very easily see and confesse . 15 Ad § . 17. In the next Section you pretend that you have no desire to prosecute the similitude of Protestants with the Donatists ; and yet you doe it with as much spight and malice as could well bee devised , but in vaine : For Lucilla might doe ill in promoting the Sect of the Donatists , and yet the Mother and the Daughter , whom you glance at , might doe well in ministring influence ( as you phrase it ) to Protestants in England . Vnlesse you will conclude because one woman did one thing ill , therefore no woman can doe any thing well : or because it was ill done to promote one Sect , therefore it must bee ill done , to maintaine any . 16 The Donatists might doe ill in calling the Chaire of Rome the Chaire of Pestilence , and the Roman Church an Harlot ; and yet the state of the Church being altered , Protestants might doe well to doe so , and therefore though , S. Austine might perhaps have reason to persecute the Donatists for detracting from the Church , and calling her harlot , when she was not so ; yet you may have none to threaten D. Potter that you would persecute him ( as the Application of this place intimates you would , ) if it were in your power : plainly shewing that you are a curst cow though your hornes be short , seeing the Roman Church is not now what it was in S. Austines time . And hereof the conclusion of your own book affords us a very pregnant testimony : where you tell us out of Saint Austine , that one grand-impediment , which among many kept the seduced followers of the faction of Donatus from the Churches Communion , was a vile calumny raised against the Catholiques , that they did set some strange thing upon their Altar . To how many ( saith S. Austine ) did the reports of ill tongues shut up the way to enter , who said , that we put , I know not what upon the Altar ? Our of detestation of the calumny , and just indignation against it , he would not so much as name the impiety wherewith they were charged , and therefore by a Rhetoricall figure calls it , I know not what . But compare with him Optatus , writing of the same matter , and you shall plainly perceive that this ( I know not what ) pretended to be set upon the Altar , was indeed a picture , which the Donatists ( knowing how detestable a thing it was to all Christians at that time , to set up any Pictures in a Church to worship them , as your new fashion is ) bruited abroad to be done in the Churches of the Catholique Church . But what answer doe S. Austine and Optatus make to this accusation ? Doe they confesse and maintaine it ? Doe they say , as you would now , It is true we doe set Pictures upon our Altar , and that not only for ornament or memory , but for worship also ; but we doe well to doe so , and this ought not to trouble you , or affright you from our Communion ? What other answer your Church could now make to such an objection , is very hard to imagine : And therefore were your Doctrine the same with the Doctrine of the Fathers in this point , they must have answered so likewise . But they to the cōtrary not only deny the crime , but abhorre and detest it . To litle purpose therefore doe you hunt after these poore shadowes of resemblances between us and the Donatists : unlesse you could shew an exact resemblance between the present Church of Rome and the Ancient : which seeing by this , and many other particulars it is demonstrated to bee impossible ; that Church which was then a Virgin may be now a Harlot , and that which was detraction in the Donatists , may be in Protestants a just accusation . 17 As ill successe have you in comparing D. Potter with Tyconius whom as S. Austin findes fault with for continuing in the Donatists separation , having forsaken the ground of it , the Doctrine of the Churches perishing : so you condemne the Doctor , for continuing in their Communion , who hold ( as you say ) the very same Heresy . But if this were indeed the Doctrine of the Donatists how is it that you say presently after , that the Protestants who hold the Church of Christ perished , were worse then Donatists , who said that the Church remained at least in Africa ? These things me thinkes , hang not well together . But to let this passe ; The truth is , this difference , for which you would faine raise such a horrible dissention between D. Potter and his Brethren , if it be well considered is only in words and the manner of expression : They affirming only , that the Church perished from its integrity , and fell into many corruptions which he derlies not : And the Doctor denying only that it fell from its essence , and became no Church at all , which they affirme not . 18 These therefore are but velitations , and you would seeme to make but small account of them . But the main point you say is , that since Luthers Reformed Church was not in being for divers Centuries before Luther , and yet was in the Apostles time , they must of necessity affirme heretically with the Donatists , that the true unspotted Church of Christ perished , and that she which remained on earth , was ( O Blasphemy ! ) anharlot . By which words it seemes you are resolute perpetually to confound True and Vnspotted ; and to put no difference between a corrupted Church and none at all . But what is this , but to make no difference betwen a diseased and a dead man ? Nay what is it but to contradict your selves , who cannot deny but that sinnes are as great staines and spots and deformities in the sight of God , as errors ; and confesse your Church to be a congregation of men , whereof every particular , not one excepted , ( and consequently the generality which is nothing but a collection of them ) is polluted and defiled with sinne ? You proceed . 19 But , say you , The same heresy followes out of D. Potter and other Protestants , that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall ; because we have shewed that every error against any revealed truth is Heresy and Damnable , whether the matter be great or small : And how can the Church more truly be said to perish , then when she is permitted to maintaine damnable Heresy ? Besides we will hereafter prove that by every act of Heresy all divine faith is lost , & to maintaine a true Church without any faith , is to fansy a living man without life . Ans. what you have said before , hath been answered before , and what you shall say hereafter , shall be confuted hereafter . But if it be such a certain ground , that every error against any one revealed truth is a damnable Heresy , Then I hope I shall have your leave to subsume , That the Dominicans in your account must hold a damnable heresy , who hold an error against the immaculate Conception : which you must needs esteeme a revealed truth , or otherwise why are you so urgent and importunate to have it defined ? seeing your rule is , nothing may be defined unlesse it be first revealed . But without your leave , I will make bold to conclude , that if either that or the contrary assertion be a revealed truth , you or they , choose you whether , must without contradiction hold a damnable Heresy : if this ground be true that every contradiction of a revealed Truth is such . And now I dare say , for fear of inconvenience you will beginne to temper the crudenesse of your former assertion , and tell us , that neither of you are Heretiques , because the Truth against which you erre though revealed , is not sufficiently propounded . And so say I , neither is your Doctrine which Protestants contradict sufficiently propounded . For though it be plain enough , that your Church proposeth it , yet still methinkes , it is as plain , that your Churche's proposition is not sufficient ; and I desire you would not say but prove the contrary . Lastly , to your Question , How can the Church more truly be said to perish , then when she is permitted to maintaine a damnable Heresy ? I Answer , she may be more truly said to perish , when she is not only permitted to doe so , but defacto doth maintaine a damnable Heresy . Again , she may be more truly said to perish , when she falls into an Heresy , which is not only damnable in it selfe , and ex natura rei , as you speak , but such an Heresy , the belief of whose contrary Truth is necessary , not only necessitate praecepti but medii , and therefore the heresy so absolutely and indispensably destructive of salvation , that no ignorance can excuse it , nor any generall repentance , without a dereliction of it , can begge a pardon for it . Such an heresy if the Church should fall into , it might be more truly said to perish , then if it fell only into some heresy of its own nature damnable . For in that state all the members of it , without exception , all without mercy must needs perish for ever : In this , although those that might see the truth & would not , cannot upon any good ground hope for Salvation , yet without question , it might send many soules to heaven , who would gladly have embrac'd the truth , but that they wanted means to discover it . Thirdly and lastly , shee may yet more truly bee said to perish when shee Apostates from Christ absolutely , or rejects even those Truths out of which her Heresies may bee reformed ; as if shee should directly deny Iesus to be the Christ , or the Scripture to be the Word of God. Towards which state of Perdition it may well be feared that the Church of Rome doth somewhat incline , by her superinducing upon the rest of her errors the Doctrine of her own infallibility , whereby her errors are made incurable ; and by her pretending that the Scripture is to be interpreted according to her doctrine , and not her doctrine to be judg'd of by Scripture , whereby she makes the Scripture uneffectuall for her Reformation . 20 Ad § 18. I was very glad when I heard you say The Holy Scripture and ancient Fathers doe assigne Separation from the visible Church as a mark of Heresie : for I was in good hope , that no Christian would so bely the Scripture , as to say so of it , unlesse hee could have produced some one Text at least , wherein this was plainly affirmed , or from whence it might be undoubtedly and undeniably collected . For assure your selfe , good Sir , it is a very haynous crime to say , thus saith the Lord , when the Lord doth not say so . I expected therefore some Scripture should haue been alleaged , wherein it should haue beene said , whosoever separates from the Roman Church is an Heretique : or the Roman Church is infallible , or the Guide of faith : or at least , There shall be alwaies some visible Church infallible in matters of faith . Some such direction as this I hoped for : And I pray consider whether I had not reason ! The Evangelists and Apostles who wrote the New Testament , we all suppose were good men , and very desirous to direct us the surest and plainest way to heaven ; wee suppose them likewise very sufficiently instructed by the Spirit of God in all the necessary points of the Christian faith , and therefore certainly not ignorant of this Vnum Necessarium , this most necessary point of all others , without which as you pretend and teach , all faith is no Faith , that is , that the Church of Rome was designed by God the Guide of Faith. Wee suppose thē lastly wise men , especially being assisted by the spirit of wisdome , and such as knew that a doubtfull & questionable Guide was for mens direction as good as none at all . And after all these suppositions , which I presume no good Christian will call into question , is it possible that any Christian heart can believe , that not One amongst them all should ad rei memoriam write this necessary doctrine plainly so much as once ? Certainly in all reason they had provided much better for the good of Christians if they had wrote this , though they had writ nothing else . Me thinks the Evangelists undertaking to write the Gospell of Christ , could not possibly haue omitted , any One of them , this most necessary point of faith , had they known it necessary , ( S. Luke especially , who plainly professeth that his intent was to write all things necessary . ) Me thinks S. Paul writing to the Romans could not but have congratulated this their Priviledge to them ! Me thinks instead of saying , Your faith is spoken of all the world over ( which you haue no reason to be very proud of , for he saies the very same thing to the Thessalonians , ) he could not haue fayl'd to haue told them once at least in plaine termes , that their faith was the Rule for all the World for ever . But then sure he would haue forborn to put them in feare of an impossibility , as hee doth in his eleventh Chap. that they also , nay the whole Church of the Gentiles , if they did not look to their standing , might fall away to infidelity , as the Iews had done . Me thinks in all his other Epistles , at least in some , at least in one of them , he could not have fayled to haue given the world this direction , had he known it to be a true one , that all men were to be guided by the Church of Rome , and none to separate from it under pain of damnation . Me thinks writing so often of Heretiques and Antichrist , hee should haue given the world this ( as you pretend ) onely sure preservative from them . How was it possible that S. Peter writing two Catholique Epistles , mentioning his own departure , writing to preserve Christians in the faith , should in neither of them commend them to the guidance of his pretended Successours , the Bishops of Route ? How was it possible that S. Iames , and S. Iude in their Catholique Epistles should not giue this Catholique direction ? Me thinks S. Iohn instead of saying , he that believeth that Iesus is the Christ , is born of God , ( The force of which direction , your glosses doe quite enervate , and make unavailable to discern who are the sonnes of God , ) should haue said , Hee that adheres to the doctrine of the Roman Church , and lives according to it , he is a good Christian , and by this Mark yee shall know him ! What man not quite out of his witts , if he consider as he should , the pretended necessity of this doctrine , that without the beliefe hereof no man ordinarily can be saved , can possibly force himselfe to conceive that all these good and holy men , so desirous of mens salvation , and so well assured of it ( as it is pretended , ) should be so deeply and affectedly silent in it , and not One say it plainly so much as once , but leaue it to be collected from uncertain Principles , by many more uncertain consequences ? Certainly he that can judge so uncharitably of them , it is no marvell if he censure other inferiour servants of Christs Atheists , and Hypocrites , and what he pleases . Plain places therefore I did and had reason to look for , when I heard you say , the holy Scripture assignes Separation from the visible Church as a Mark of Heresie . But instead hereof what haue you brought us , but meer impertinencies ? S. Iohn saith of some who pretended to be Christians and were not so , and therefore when it was for their advantage forsook their Profession , They went out from us , but they were not of us ; for if they had been of us , they would no doubt have continued with us . Of some , who before the decree of the Councell to the contrary , were perswaded and accordingly taught , that the convert Gentiles were to keep the Law of Moses , it is said in the Acts , Some who went out from us . And again S. Paul in the same book forewarnes the Ephesians that out of them should arise men speaking perverse things . And from these places which it seems are the plainest you have , you collect that separation from the Visible Church is assigned by Scripture as a Mark of Heresie . Which is certainly a strang and unheard of strain of Logick . Vnlesse you will say that every Text wherein it is said , that some body goes out from some body , affords an Argument for this purpose ! For the first place there is no certainty that it speaks of Heretiques ; but , no Christians , of Antichrists , of such as denied Iesus to be the Christ : See the place and you shall confesse as much . The second place , it is certain , you must not say it speaks of Heretiques , for it speaks only of some who beleeved and taught an Errour , while it was yet a question and not evident , and therefore according to your doctrine , no formall Heresy . The third saies indeed , that of the Professours of Christianity , some shall arise that shall teach Heresy : But not one of them all that saies or intimates , that whosoever separates from the Visible Church ; in what state soever , is certainly an Heretique . Heretiques I confesse doe alwayes doe so ; But they that doe so are not alwayes Heretiques , for perhaps the state of the Church may make it necessary for them to doe so ; as Rebels alwayes disobey the command of their King , yet they which disobey a Kings command ( which perhaps may be unjust ) are not presently Rebels . 21 Your Allegations out of Vincentius , Prosper , and Cyprian are lyable to these exceptions . 1. That they are the sayings of men not assisted by the Spirit of God , and whose Authoritie your selves will not submit to in all things . 2. That the first and last are meerly impertinent , neither of them affirming or intimating , that separation from the present Visible Church is a mark of Heresy : and the former speaking plainly of separation from Vniversality , Consent and Antiquity , which if you will presume without proof that we did and you did not , you beg the Question . For you know we pretend that we separated only from that present Church which had separated from the doctrine of the Ancient , and because she had done so , and so farre forth as she had done so and no farther . And lastly the latter part of Prospers words cannot be generally true , according to your own grounds ; For you say a man may be divided from the Church upon meer Schisme without any mixture of Heresy : And a man may be justly excommunicated for many other sufficient causes besides Heresy . Lastly , a man may be divided by an unjust excommunication , and be both before and after a very good Catholique ; and therefore you cannot maintain it Vniversally true , That he who is divided from the Church is an Heretique , and Antichrist . 22 In the 19. § we have the Authority of eight Fathers urg'd to prove that the separation from the Church of Rome as it is the Sea of S. Peter ( I conceive you mean as it is the Particular Church ) is the mark of Heresy . Which kind of argument I might well refuse to answer , unlesse you would first promise me , that whensoever I should produce as plain sentences , of as great a number of Fathers , as ancient , for any doctrine whatsoever , that you will subscribe to it , though it fall out to be cōtrary to the doctrine of the Roman Church . For I conceive nothing in the world more unequall or unreasonable , then that you should presse us with such Authorities as these , and think you selves at liberty from them ; and that you should account them Fathers when they are for you , and Children when they are against you . Yet I would not you should interpret this as if I had not great assurance , that it is not possible for you ever to gain this cause at the tribunall of the Fathers , nay not of the Fathers whose sentences are here alleaged . Let us consider them in order , and I doubt not to make it appear that farre the greater part of them , nay all of them that are any way considerable fall short of your purpose . 23 S. Hierome ( you say ) writing to Pope Damasus , saith , I am in the Communion of the Chaire of Peter : &c. But then I pray consider he saith it to Pope Damasus : and this will much weaken the Authority , with them who know how great over-truths men usually write to one another in letters . Consider againe , that he saies only , that he was then in Communion with the Chaire of Peter , Nott hat he alwayes would , or of necessity must be so : for his resolution to the contrary is too evident out of that which he saith elswhere which shall be produced hereafter . He saies that the Church at that present was built upon that Rock ; but not that only , Nor that alwayes . Nay his judgment as shall appeare is expresse to the contrary . And so likewise the rest of his expressions ( if we meane to reconcile Hierome with Hierome ) must bee conceived as intended by him , of that Bishop and Sea of Rome , at that present time , and in the present State , and in respect of that doctrine which he there intreats of . For otherwise had he conceiu'd it necessary for him and all men to conform their judgments in matters of faith , to the judgment of the Bishop & Church of Rome , how came it to passe that he chose rather to believe the Epistle to the Hebrewes Canonicall , upō the Authority of the Easterne Church , then to reject it from the Canon upon the Authority of the Roman ? How comes it to passe that he dissented from the Authority of that Church , touching the Canon of the Old Testament ? For if you say , that the Church then consented with S. Hierome , I feare you will loose your Fort by maintaining your Out-works , and by avoyding this , runne into a greater danger of being forc'd to confesse the present Roman Church opposite herein to the Ancient . How was it possible , that he should ever beleeue that Liberius Bishop of Rome either was or could haue been wrought over by the sollicitation of Fortunatianus Bishop of Aquileia , and brought after two years banishment to subscribe Heresie ? Which Act of Liberius though some fondly question , being so vain as to expect we should rather believe them that lived but yesterday , thirteen hundred years almost after the thing is said to be done , and speaking for themselves in their own Cause , rather then the dis-interessed time-fellowes or immediate Successors of Liberius himselfe : yet I hope they will not proceed to such a degree of immodesty , as once to question whether S. Hierome thought so . And if this cannot be denyed , I demand then if he had lived in Liberius his time , could he or would he have written so to Liberius as he does to Damasus ? would he have said to him , I am in the Communion of the Chair of Peter , I know that the Church is built upon this Rock , Whosoever gathereth not with thee scattereth . Would he then have said , the Roman faith and the Catholique were the same : or , that the Roman faith received no delusions , no not from an Angell ? I suppose he could not have said so with any coherence to his own beleif ; and therefore conceive it undeniable that what he said then to Damasus , he said it ( though perhaps he streyned too high ) only of Damasus , and never conceiv'd that his words would have been extended to all his Predecessors and all his Successors . 24 The same Answer I make to the first place of S. Ambrose , viz. that no more can be certainly concluded from it , but that the Catholique Bishops and the Roman Church were then at unity ; so that whosoever agreed with the latter could not then but agree with the former . But that this Rule was perpetuall , and that no man could ever agree with the Catholique Bishops , but he must agree with the Roman Church , this he saies not , nor gives you any ground to conclude from him . Athanasius when he was excommunicated by Liberius , agreed very ill with the Roman Church , and yet you will not gainsay , but he agreed well enough with the Catholique Bishops . The second , I am uncertain what the sense of it is , and what truth is in it ; but most certain that it makes nothing to your present purpose . For it neither affirmes nor imports , that separation from the Roman Church is a certain marke of Heresy . For the Rights of Communion ( whatsoever it signifies , ) might be said to flow from it , if that Church were by Ecclesiasticall Law , the head of all other Churches : But unlesse it were made so by divine Authority , and that absolutely , Separation from it could not be a marke of Heresy . 25 For S. Cyprian all the world knowes that he b resolutely opposed a Decree of the Roman Bishop , and all that adhered to him in the point of Re. baptizing , which that Church at that time delivered as a necessary Tradition . So necessary , that by the Bishop of Rome Firmilianus and other Bishops of Cappadocia , Cilicia and Galatia , and generally all who persisted in the contrary opinion , c were therefore deprived of the Churches Communion , ( which excōmunication could not but involve S. Cyprian , who defended the same opinion as resolutely as Firmilianus , though Cardinall Perron magisterially and without all colour of proofe affirme the contrary , ) and Cyprian in particular so farre cast off , as for it to be pronounc'd by Stephen a false Christ. Again so necessary that the Bishops which were sent by Cyprian from Africk to Rome , were not admitted to the Communion of ordinary conference : But all men who were subject to the Bishop of Romes Authority , were cōmanded by him not only to deny them the Churches peace & Communion , but even lodging and entertainment : manifestly declaring , that they reckoned them among those whom S. Iohn forbids to receive to house , or to say God speed to them . All these terrors notwithstanding S. Cyprian holdes still his former opinion , & though out of respect to the Churches peace d he judged no man , nor cut off any man from the right of Communion , for thinking otherwise then he held , yet he conceived Stephen & his adherents , e to hold a pernitious error . And S. Austin , ( though disputing with the Donatists he useth some Tergiversatiō in the point , ) yet confesseth elsewhere , that it is not found that Cyprian did ever change his opinion . And so farre was he from conceiving any necessity of doing so , in submitting to the judgement of the Bishop and Church of Rome , that he plainly professeth that no other Bishop , but our Lord Iesus only , had power to judge ( with authority ) of his judgement , and as plainly intimates that Stephen , for usurping such a power , and making himselfe a judge over Bishops , was little better then a Tyrant : and as heavily almost he censures him , and peremptorily opposes him as obstinate in error , in that very place where he delivers that famous saying , How can he have God for his Father , who hath not the Church for his Mother ? little doubting it seemes but a man might have the Church for his Mother , who stood in opposition to the Church of Rome , and farre from thinking what you fondly obtrude upon him , that to be united to the Roman Church , and to the Church was all one , and that separation from S. Peters Chaire was a marke , I mean a certain marke , either of Schisme or Heresy . If after all this , you will catch at a phrase or a complement of S. Cyprians , and with that hope to perswade Protestants , who know this story as well as their own name , that S. Cyprian did believe that falsehood could not have accesse to the Roman Church , and that opposition to it was the brand of an Heretique : may we not well expect , that you will the next time you write vouch Luther & Caluin also for Abettors of this Phancy , and make us poore men believe not only ( as you say ) that we have no Metaphysicks , but that we have no sense ? And when you have done so , it will be no great difficulty for you , to assure us that we read no such thing in Bellarmine , as that Cyprian was alwaies accounted in the number of Catholiques ; nor in Canisius , that he was a most excellent Doctor and a most glorious Martyr ; nor in your Calendar , that he is a Saint and a Martyr ; but that all these are deceptions of our sight , and that you ever esteemed him a very Schismatique and an Heretique , as having on him the Marke of the Beast , opposition to the chaire of Peter , Nay that he ( what ever he pretended ) knew and believed himselfe to be so ; in as much as he knew ( as you pretend , ) and esteemed this opposition to be the Marke of Heresy , and knew himselfe to stand and stand out in such an opposition . 26 But we need not seeke so farre for matter to refute the vanity of this pretence . Let the reader but peruse this very Epistle out of which this sentence is alleaged , and he shall need no farther satisfaction against it . For he shall finde , first , that you have helped the dice a little with a false , or at least with a very bold and streined Translation : for S. Cyprian saith not to whom falshood cannot have accesse , by which many of your favourable Readers I doubt understood , that Cyprian had exempted that Church from a possibility of error , but to whom perfidiousnesse cannot have accesse , meaning by perfidiousnesse in the abstract , according to a common figure of speech , those perfidious Schismatiques whom he there complaines of : and of these by a Rhetoricall insinuation , he saies that with such good Christians as the Romans were , it was not possible they should finde favourable entertainment . Not that he conceived it any way impossible they should doe so , for the very writing this Epistle , and many passages in it , plainly shew the contrary : But because he was confident , or at least would seeme to be confident , they never would , and so by his good opinion and confidence in the Romans , lay an obligation upon them , to doe as he presum'd they would doe ; as also in the end of his Epistle , he saies even of the people of the Church of Rome , that being defended by the providence of their Bishop , nay by their own Vigilance sufficiently guarded , they could not be taken nor deceived with the poysons of Heretiques . Not that indeed he thought either this or the former any way impossible : For to what purpose , but for prevention hereof , did he write this long and accurate and vehement Epistle to Cornelius ? which sure had been most vainly done , to prevent that which he knew or believed impossible ! Or how can this consist with his taking notice in the begining of it , that Cornelius was somewhat moved and wrought upon by the attempts of his Adversaries , with his reprehending him for being so , and with his vehement exhorting him to courage and constancy , or with his request to him , in the conclusion of his Epistle , that it should be read publiquely to the whole Clergy and Laity of Rome , to the intent , that if any contagion of their poisoned speech and pestiferous semination , had crept in amongst them , it might be wholly taken away from the eares and the hearts of the Brethren , and that the entire and syncere charity of good men might be purged from all drosse of hereticall detraction : Or lastly with his vehement perswasions to them to decline for the time to come , and resolutely avoid their word and conference , because their speech crept as a canker , as the Apostle saith ; because evill communication would corrupt good natures , because wicked men carry perdition in their mouthes , and hide fire in their lips ? All which had been but vain and ridiculous pagentry , had he verily believed the Romans such inaccessible Forts , such immoveable Rocks , as the former sentences would seeme to import , if we will expound them rigidly and strictly , according to the exigence of the words , & not allow him who was a professed Maister of the Art , to have used here a little Rhetorique , and to say , That could not be , whereof he had no absolute certainty but that it might be , but only had , or would seem to have a great confidence that it never would be , ut fides habita fidem obligaret , that he professing to be confident of the Romans , might lay an obligation upon them to doe as he promist himselfe they would doe . For as for joyning the Principall Church and the Chair of Peter , how that will serve for your present purpose , of proving separation from the Roman Church a marke of Heresy , I suppose it is hard to understand ! Nor indeed how it will advantage you in any other designe against us , who doe not altogether deny , but that the Church of Rome might be called the Chaire of Peter , in regard he is said to have preached the Gospell there , and the principall Church , because the City was the Principall and Imperiall City : which Prerogative of the City , if we believe the Fathers of the Councell of Chalcedon was the ground and occasion , why the Fathers of former time ( I pray observe , ) conferred upon this Church , this Prerogative above other Churches . 27 And as farre am I from understanding , how you can collect from the other sentence , that to communicate with the Church and Pope of Rome , and to communicate with the Catholique Church , is alwaies ( for that is your Assumpt ) one and the same thing . S. Cyprian speaks not of the Church of Rome at all , but of the Bishop only , who when he doth communicate with the Catholique Church , as Cornelius at that time did , then whosoever communicates with him , cannot but communicate with the Catholique Church : and then by accident one may truly say , such a one communicates with you , that is , with the Catholique Church , and that to communicate with him is to communicate with the Catholique Church . As if Titius and Sompronius be together , he that is in company with Titius , cannot but be at that time in company with Sempronius . As if a Generall be marching to some place with an Army , he that then is with the Generall must at that time be with the Army : And a man may say without absurdity , such a time I was with the Generall , that is , with the Army , and that to be with the Generall is to be with the Army . Or as if a mans hand be joyned to his body , the finger which is joyned to the hand is joyned to the body , and a man may say truly of it , this finger is joyned to the hand , that is , to the body , and to be joyned to the hand is to be joyned to the Body ; because all these things are by accident true . And yet I hope you would not deny , but the finger might possibly be joyned to the hand , and yet not to the Body , the hand being cut off from the Body ; and a man might another time , be with his Generall and not with his Army , he being absent from the Army . And therefore by like Reason your collection is sophisticall , being in effect but this , to communicate with such a Bishop of Rome , who did communicate with the Catholique Church , was to Communicate with the Catholique Church , therefore absolutely and alwaies it must be true , that to communicate with him , is by consequent to communicate with the Catholique Church , and to be divided from his Communion , is to be an Heretique . 28 In urging the place of Irenaeus you have shewed much more ingenuity then many of your Fellowes . For whereas they usually beginne at , Declaring the Tradition of the &c. and conceale what goes before , you have set it down , though not so compleatly as you should have done , yet sufficiently to shew , that what Authority in the matter he attributed to the Roman Church in particular , the same for the kind ( though perhaps not in the same degree ) he attributed to all other Apostolique Churches . Either therefore you must say that he conceived the Testimony of other Apostolique Churches divine and infallible , ( which certainly he did not , neither doe you pretend he did , and if he had , the confessed Errors and Heresies which after they fell into , would demonstrate plainly that he had erred , ) or else that he conceived the testimony of the Roman Church only humane and credible , though perhaps more credible then any one Church beside , ( as one mans Testimony is more credible then anothers ; ) but certainly much more Credible , which was enough for his purpose , then that secret Tradition , to which those Heretiques pretended , against whom he wrote , overbearing them with an argument of their own kinde , farre stronger then their own . Now if Irenaeus thought the Testimony of the Roman Church in this point only humane and fallible , then surely he could never think , either adhering to it a certain marke of a Catholique , or separation from it a certain marke of a Heretique . 29 Again , whereas your great Achilles Cardinall Perron in French , as also his noble Translatresse misled by him , in English , knowing that mens resorting to Rome would doe his cause little service , hath made bold with the Latine tongue , as he does very often with the Greek , and rendred Ad hanc Ecclesiam necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam , To this Church it is necessary that every Church should agree , you have Translated it , as it should be , to this Church it is necessary that all Churches resort : wherein you have shewed more sincerity , and have had more regard to make the Author speak sense . For if he had said , By shewing the Tradition of the Roman Church we confound all Heretiques , For to this Church , all Churches must agree , what had this been , but to give for a reason , that which was more questionable then the thing in question : as being neither evident in it selfe , and plainly denied by his adversaries , and not at all proved nor offered to be proved here or elsewhere by Irenaeus . To speak thus therefore had been weak and ridiculous . But on the other side , if we conceive him to say thus , You Heretiques decline a tryall of your Doctrine by Scripture , as being corrupted and imperfect , and not fit to determine Controversies , without recourse to Tradition , and instead hereof , you fly for refuge to a secret Tradition , which you pretend that you received from your Ancestors , and they from the Apostles : certainly your calumnies against Scripture are most uniust and unreasonable , but yet moreover , assure your selves , that if you will be tryed by Tradition , even by that also you will be overthrown . For our Tradition is farre more famous , more constant , and in all respects more credible , then that which you pretend to . It were easy for me , to muster up against you the uninterrupted successions of all the Churches founded by the Apostles , all conspiring in their Testimonies against you : But because it were too long to number up the Successions of all Churches , I will content my selfe with the Tradition of the most ancient and most glorious Church of Rome , which alone is sufficient for the confutation and confusion of your Doctrine , as being in credit and authority , as farre beyond the Tradition you build upon , as the light of the Sunne , is beyond the light of the Gloworme . For to this Church , by reason it is placed in the Imperiall Citty , whither all mens affaires doe necessarily draw them , or by reason of the powerfull Principality it hath over all the adiacent Churches , there is , and alwaies hath been a necessity of a perpetuall recourse of all the faithfull round about : who if there had been any alteration in the Church of Rome , could not in all probability but have observed it . But they to the contrary , have alwaies observed in this Church the very Tradition which came from the Apostles and no other . I say if we conceive his meaning thus , his words will be intelligible and rationall : which if in stead of resort we put in agree will be quite lost . Herein therefore we have been beholding to your honesty , which makes me think you did not wittingly falsify , but only twice in this sentence mistake Vndique for Vbique and Translate it , every where , and of what place soever , in stead of round about . For that it was necessary for all the faithfull of what place soever to resort to Rome is not true . That the Apostolike Tradition hath alwaies been conserved there from those who are every where , is not Sense . Now instead of conservata read observata , as in all probability it should be , and translate undique truly round about , and then the sense will be both plain and good ; for then it must be rendred thus , For to this Church , by reason of a more powerfull principality , there is a necessity that all the Churches , that is , all the faithfull round about , should resort , in which the Apostolique Tradition hath been alwaies observed by those who were round about . If any man say I have been too bold a Critick in substituting observata instead of conseruata , I desire him to know , that the conjecture is not mine , and therefore as I expect no praise for it , so I hope I shall be farre from censure . But I would intreat him to consider , whether it be not likely that the same greek word signifying observo and conservo , the Translater of Irenaeus who could hardly speak Latine , might not easily mistake , and translate , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conservata est , instead of observata est ; Or whether it be not likely , that those men which ancienly wrote Books , and understood them nor , might not easily commit such an error ; Or whether the sense of the place can be salved any other way ; if it can in Gods name let it , if not , I hope he is not to be condemned , who with such a little alteration hath made that sense which he found non sense . 30 But whether you will have it Observata or Conservata , the new sumpsimus or the old mumpsimus , possibly it may be something to Irenaus but to us or our cause it is no way materiall . For if the rest be rightly translated , neither will Conservata afford you any argument against us , nor Observata helpe us to any evasion . For though at the first hearing the glorious attributes here given , ( and that justly ) to the Church of Rome , the confounding Heretiques with her tradition , and saying it is necessary for all Churches to resort to her , may sound like Arguments for you : yet hee that is attentive I hope will easily discover , that it might be good and rationall in Irenaeus having to doe with Heretiques , who , somewhat like those who would be the only Catholiques , declining a tryall by Scripture as not contayning the Truth of Christ perfectly , and not fit to decide Controversies without recourse to Tradition : I say he will easily perceive that it might be rationall in Iraeneus to urge them with any Tradition of more credit then their own , especially a Tradition consonant to Scripture , and even contain'd in it ; and yet that it may be irrationall in you to urge us , who doe not decline Scripture but appeale to it as a perfect rule of faith , with a Tradition which we pretend is many wayes repugnant to Scripture , and repugnant to a Tradition far more generall then it self , which gives Testimony to Scripture , and lastly repugnant to it self as giving attestation both to Scripture and to Doctrines plainly contrary to Scripture . Secondly that the Authority of the Roman Church was then a far greater Argument of the Truth of her Tradition when it was Vnited with all other Apostolique Churches , then now when it is divided from them , according to that of Tertullian , Had the Churches erred they would have varied , but that which is the same in all , cannot be errour but Tradition ; and therefore though Irenaeus his Argument may be very probable , yet yours may be worth nothing . Thirdly , that foureteen hundred yeares may have made a great deale of alteration in the Roman Church : as Rivers , though neere the fountain they may retaine their native and unmixt syncerity , yet in long progresse cannot but take in much mixture that came not from the fountain . And therefore the Roman Tradition though then pure , may now be corrupt and impure : and so this Argument ( being one of those things which are the worse for wearing ) might in Irenaeus his time be strong and vigorous , and after declining and decaying may long since have fallen to nothing . Especially considering that Irenaeus plaies the Historian only and not the Prophet , and saies only , that the Apostolique Tradition had been alwayes there as in other Apostolique Churches conserved or observed , choose you whether , but that it should be alwayes so , he saies not , neither had he any warrant . He knew well enough that there was foretold a great falling away of the Churches of Christ to Anti-christ : that the Roman Church in particular was forewarned that she also , nay the whole Church of the Gentiles , might fall if they look not to their standing : and therefore to secure her that she should stand for ever , he had no reason , nor Authority . Fourthly , that it appeares manifestly out of this book of Irenaeus quoted by you , that the doctrine of the Chiliasts was in his judgment Apostolique Tradition , as also it was esteemed ( for ought appeares to the contrary ) by all the Doctors , and Saints , and Martyrs of or about his time , for all that speak of it , or whose judgments in the point are any way recorded , are for it : and Iustine Martyr professeth that all good and Orthodoxe Christians of his time beleeved it , and those that did not , he reckons amongst Heretiques . Now I demand , was this Tradition one of those that was conserved , and observed in the Church of Rome , or was it not ? If not , had Irenaeus known so much , he must have retracted this commendation of that Church . If it was , then the Tradition of the present Church of Rome contradicts the Ancient , and accounts it Hereticall , and then sure it can be no certain note of Heresie to depart from them , who have departed from themselves , and prove themselves subject unto Errour by holding contradictions . Fiftly and lastly , that out of the Story of the Church it is as manifest as the light at noone , that though Irenaeus did esteem the Roman Tradition , a great Argument of the doctrine which he there delivers and defends against the Heretiques of his time viz : that there was one God , yet he was very far from thinking that Church was , and ever should be a safe keeper , and an infallible witnesse of Tradition in generall : Inasmuch as in his own life , his action proclaim'd the contrary . For when Victor Bishop of Rome obtruded the Roman Tradition touching the time of Easter upon the Asian Bishops under the pain of Excommunication , and damnation , Irenaeus , and all the other Western Bishops , though agreeing with him in his observation yet sharply reprehended him for excommunicating the Asian Bishops for their disagreeing , plainly shewing , that they esteemed that not a necessary doctrine and a sufficient ground of excommunication , which the Bishop of Rome and his adherents did so account of : For otherwise how could they have reprehended him for excommunicating them , had they conceived the cause of his excommunication just and sufficient ? And besides evidently declaring that they esteemed not separation from the Roman Church a certain mark of Heresie , seeing they esteemed not them Heretiques though separated and cut off from the Roman Church . Cardinall Perron to avoyd the stroak of this conuincing argument , raiseth a cloud of eloquent words , which because you borrow them of him in your Second part , I will here insert , and with short censures dispell , and let his Idolaters see that Truth is not afraid of Giants : His words are these . The first instance then that Calvin alleageth against the Popes censures , is taken from Eusebius ( a ) an Arrian author , and from Ruffinus ( b ) enemie to the Roman Church his translator ; who writ , ( c ) that S. IRENEVS reprehended Pope Victor for having excommunicated the Churches of Asia for the question of the day of Pasche , which they observed according to a particular tradition that S. IOHN had introduced ( d ) for a time in their Provinces , because of the neighbourhood of the Iewes , and to bury the Synagogue with honour , and not according to the universall tradition of the Apostles . Irenaeus ( saith Calvin ) reprehended Pope Victor bitterly , because for a light cause he had moved a great and perillous contention in the Church . There is this in the text that Calvin produceth , He reprehended him , that he had not done well , to cut off from the body of unity , so many and so great Churches . But against whom maketh this , but ( e ) against those that obiect it ? for who sees not , that S. IRENEVS , doth not there reprehend the Pope for the ( f ) want of power , but for the ill use of his power ; and doth not reproach to the Pope , that he could not excommunicate the Asians , but admonisheth him , that for ( g ) so small a cause he should not have cut off so many Provinces from the body of the Church ? Iraeneus ( saith Eusebius ) did fitly exhort Pope Victor , that he should not cut off all the Churches of God which held this ancient tradition . And Ruffinus translating and envenoming Eusebius saith . He questioned Victor , that he had not done well in cutting off from the body of unity so many and so great Churches of God ▪ And in truth , how could S. IRENEUS have reprehended the Pope for want of power ; he that cries : To the Roman Church , because of a more powerfull principality ; ( that is to say ) as aboue appeareth , ( h ) because of a principality more powerfull then the temporall : or ( as wee have expounded other where ) because of a more powerful Original : ( i ) it is necessary that every Church should agree ? And ( k ) therefore also S. IRENEVS alleageth not to Pope Victor the example of him , and of the other Bishops of the Gaules assembled in a councell holden expressely for this effect who had not excommunicated the Asians , nor the example of Narcissus Bishop of Ierusalem , and of the Bishops of Palestina assembled in an other Councell , holden expressely for the same effect , who had not excommunicated them , nor the example of Palmas , and of the other Bishops of Pontus assembled in the same manner , and for the same cause in the Region of Pontus , who had not excommunicated them , but only alleadges to him the example of the Popes his predecessors : The Prelates ( saith he ) who have presided before Soter in the Church where thou presidest , Anisius , Pius , Hyginus , Telesphorus , and Sixtus , have not observed this custome , &c. and neverthelesse none of those that observed it , have been excommunicated . And yet , O admirable providence of God , the ( l ) successe of the after ages shewed , that even in the use of his power , the Popes proceeding was iust . For after the death of Victor , the Councels of Nicea , of Constantinople , and of Ephesus , excommunicated again those that held the same custome with the provinces , that the Pope had excommunicated , and placed them in the Catalogue of heretiques , under the titles of heretiques Quarto decumans ! But to this instance Calvins Sect doe annex two new observations ; the first , that the Pope having threatned the Bishops of Asia to excommunicate them , Polycrates the Bishop of Ephesus and Metropolitan of Asia , despised the Popes threats , as it appeares by the answer of the same Polycrates to Pope Victor , which is inserted in the writings of Eusebius , and of S. IEROM , and which S. IEROM seemeth to approve , when he saith , he reports it to shew the spirit and authority of the man. And the second , that when the Pope pronounced anciently his excommunications , he did no other thing but separate himself from the communion of those that he excommunicated , and did not thereby separate them from the universall communion of the Church . To the first then we say , that so farre is this Epistle of Polycrates from abating and deminishing the Popes authority , that contrary wise it greatly magnifies and exalts it . For although Polycrates blinded with the love of the custome of his nation , which he beleeved to be grounded upon the word of God , who had assigned the fourteenth of the Moneth of March for the observation of the Pasche , and upon the example of S. IOHNS tradition maintaines it obstinately ; Neverthelesse , this that he answeres , speaking in his own name , and in the name of the Councell of the Bishops of Asia , to whom he presided ; I feare not those that threaten us , for my elders have said , it is better to obey God then man. Doth it not shew , that had it not been , that he beleeved the Popes threat , was against the expresse word of God , there had been cause to feare it , and he had been obliged to obey him ; for ( m ) who knowes not , that this answer ; it is better to obey God then men , is not to be made but to those , whom we were obliged to obey , if their commandements were not contrary to the commandements of God ; And that he adds , that he had called the Bishops of Asia , to a Nationall Councell , being ( n ) summoned to it by the Pope ; doth it not insinuate , that the other Councels whereof Eusebius speaks , that were holden about this matter , through all the provinces of the Earth , and particularly that of Palestina , which if you beleeve the act that Beda said came to his hands , Theophilus Archbishop of Cesarea had called by the auctority of Victor , were holden at the instance of the Pope , and consequently that the Pope was the first mover of the universall Church ? And that the Councels of Nicea , of Constantinople of Ephesus embraced the censure of Victor , and excommunicated those that observed the custome of Polycrates : doth it not prove , that it was not the Pope but ( o ) Polycrates that was deceived , in beleeving that the Popes cōmandement , was against Gods commandement ? And that S. IEROM himselfe celebrates the Paschall Homelies of Theophilus Patriarke of Alexandria , which followed the order of Nicea concerning the Pasche ; Doth it not iustifie , that when S. IEROM saith ; that he reports the Epistle of Polycrates , to shew the spirit , and authority of the man he intends by authority , not authority of right , but of fact ▪ that is to say , the credit that Polycrates had amongst the Asians and other Quarto decimans ? These are the Cardinall words , The most materiall and considerable passages whereof to save the trouble of repetition , I have noted with letters of reference : whereunto my answers noted respectively with the same letters follow now in order . ( a ) If Eusebius were an Arrian author , It is nothing to the purpose ; what he writes there is no Arrianisme , nor any thing towards it . Never any error was imputed to the Arrians for denying the Authority or the infallibility of the Bishop or Church of Rome . Besides what Eusebius saies , he saies out of Irenaeus : Neither doth or can the Cardinall deny the story to be true & therefore he goes about by indirect Arts to foyle it & cast a blurre upon it . Lastly , whensoever Eusebius saies any thing , which the Cardinall thinkes for the advantage of his side , he cites him , and then he is no Arrian : or at least hee would not take that for an answer to the arguments he drawes out of him . ( b ) That Ruffinus was enemy to the Roman Church , is said , but not proved , neither can it be . ( c ) Eusebius saies the same also of caeteri omnes Episcopi , all the other Bishops : that they advised Victor to keepe those things , that belonged to peace and unity , and that they sharpely reprehended Victor , for having done otherwise . ( d ) This is said , but no offer made of any proofe of it : The Cardinall thinks we must take every thing upon his word . They to whom the Tradition was delivered , Polyerates and the Asian Bishops , knew no such matter , nay professed the contrary . And who is more likely to know the Truth , they which lived within two ages of the fountain of it , or the Cardinall who lived sixteen ages after it ? ( e ) How can it make against those that object it : seeing it is evident from Irenaeus his Reprehension , that he thought Victor and the Roman Church , no infallible nor sufficient Iudge , of what was necessary to be believed and done , what not : what was Vniversall Tradition , what not : what was a sufficient ground of Excommunication and what not : and consequently , that there was no such necessity as is pretended , that all other Churches , should in matters of faith , conforme themselves to the Church of Rome ? ( f ) This is to suppose that Excommunication , is an Act , or Argument , or signe of Power & Authority in the party excommunicating , over the party excommunicated , whereas it is undeniably evident out of the Church Story , that it was often used by Equalls upon Equalls , and by Inferiors upon Superiors , if the equalls or inferiors , thought their equalls or superiors did any thing which deserved it . ( g ) And what is this but to confesse , that they thought that a small cause of excommunication and unsufficient , which Victor and his adherents thought great and sufficient ? And consequently , that Victor and his Part declared that to be a matter of faith and of necessity , which they thought not so ; and where was then their conformity ? ( h ) True , you have so expounded it , but not proved nor offered any proofe of your exception . This also we must take upon your Authority . Irenaeus speaks not one word of any other power , to which he compares or before which he preferres the power of the Roman Church . And it is evident out of the Councell of Chalcedon , * that all the Principality which it had , was given it ( not by God , but ) by the Church , in regard it was seated in the Imperiall City . Whereupon when afterwards Constantinople was the Imperiall City , they decreed that that Chuch should have equall Priviledges and dignity and preheminence with the Church of Rome . All the Fathers agreed in this decree , saving only the Legats of the Bishop of Rome : shewing plainly that they never thought of any Supremacy given the Bishops of Rome by God , or grounded upon Scripture , but only by the Church , and therefore alterable at the Churches pleasure . ( i ) This is falsely translated . Convenire ad Romanam Ecclesiam , every body knowes signifies no more but to resort or come to the Roman Church : which then there was a necessity that men should doe , because that the affaires of the Empire were transacted in that place . But yet Irenaeus saies not so of every Church simply , which had not been true , but only of the adjacent Churches , for so he expounds himselfe in saying , To this Church it is necessary that every Church , that is , all the faithfull round about should resort . With much more reason therefore we returne the Argument thus , Had Irenaeus thought that all Churches must of necessity agree with the Romā , how could he & all other Bishops have then pronounc'd , that to be no matter of Faith , no sufficient ground of Excommunication , which Victor and his adherents thought to be so ? And how then could they have reprehended Victor so much , for the ill use of his power , as Cardinall Perron confesses they did , seeing if that was true which is pretended , in this also as well as other things , it was necessary for them to agree with the Church of Rome ? Some there are that say , but more wittily then truly , that all Cardinall Bellarmines works , are so consonant to themselves , as if he had written them in two houres . Had Cardinall Perron wrote his book in two houres , sure he would not have done that here in the middle of the Book , which he condemns in the beginning of it . For here he urgeth a consequence , drawn from the mistaken words of Irenaeus against his lively and actuall practice : which proceeding , there he justly condemnes of evident injustice . His words are * , For who knowes not that it is too great an injustice to alleage consequences from passages , and even those ill interpreted and misunderstood , and in whose illation there is alwaies some Paralogisme hid against the expresse words , and the lively & actuall practise of the same Fathers from whom they are collected : and that may be good , to take the Fathers for Adversaries , and to accuse them for want of sense or memory : but not to take them for Iudges , and to submit themselves to the observation of what they have believ'd and practised . ( k ) This is nothing to the purpose : he might choose these examples , not as of greater force and authority in themselves , but as fitter to be imploied against Victor , as domestique examples , are fitter and more effectuall then forraine : and for his omitting to presse him with his own example and others , to what purpose had it been to use them , seeing their Letters sent to Victor from all parts , wherein they reprehend his presumption , shewed him sufficiently , that their example was against him . But besides , he that reads Irenaeus his Letter shall see , that in the matter of the Lent Fast , and the great variety about the celebration of it , which he paralels with this of Easter , he presseth Victor with the example of himselfe and others , not Bishops of Rome ; both they ( saith hee speaking of other Bishops ) notwithstanding this difference , retained peace among themselves , and wee also among our selves retaine it ; inferring from his example , that Victor also ought to doe so . ( l ) If the Popes proceeding was just , then the Churches of Asia were indeed , and in the sight of God excommunicate , and out of the state of Salvation : which Irenaeus and all the other ancient Bishops never thought . And if they were so , why doe you accou●t them Saints and Martyrs ? But the truth is , that these Councells did no way shew the Popes proceedings just , but rather the contrary . For though they setled an uniformity in this matter , yet they setled it as a matter formerly indifferent , & not as a matter of faith or necessity , as it is evident out of * Athanasius ; & consequently they rather declare Victors proceeding unjust , who excommunicated so many Churches , for differing from him in an indifferent matter . ( m ) It seemes then Polycrates might be a Saint and a Martyr , and yet think the commands of the Roman Church enjoyned upon pain of damnation , contrary to the commandements of God. Besides S. Peter himselfe , the head of the Church , the Vicar of Christ ( as you pretend ) made this very answer to the High Priest , yet I hope you will not say , he was his inferior and obliged to obey him . Lastly , who sees not , that when the Pope commandes us any thing unjust , as to communicate Lay men in one kinde , to use the Latine service , we may very fitly say to him , it is better to obey God then men , and yet never think of any authority he hath over us ? ( n ) Between requesting and summoning , methinkes there should be some difference , and Polycrates saies no more , but that hee was requested by the Church of Rome to call them , and did so . Here then ( as very often ) the Cardinall is faine to help the dice with a false translation , and his pretence being false , every one must see , that that which he pretends to be insinuated by it , is cleerely inconsequent . ( o ) Polycrates was deceived , if he believed it to be against Gods commandement , and the Pope deceived as much , in thinking it to be Gods commandement , for it was neither the one nor the other , but an indifferent matter , wherein God had not interposed his Authority . Neither did the Councell of Nice embrace the censure of Victor , by acknowledging his Excommunication to be just and well grounded , for which the Cardinall neither doth pretend , nor can produce any proofe , any way comparable to the fore-alleaged words of Athanasius testifying the contrary ; though peradventure , having setled the observation , and reduced it to an uniformity , they might excommunicate those who afterward should trouble the Churches peace for an indifferent matter . And thus much for Irenaeus . 31 I come now to S. Austine , and to the first place out of him , where he seemes to say , that the Succession in the Sea of Peter , was the Rock which our Saviour meant when he said , upon this Rock , &c. I answer , first we have no reason to be confident of the truth hereof , because S. Austine himselfe was not , but retracts it as uncertain , & leaves to the Reader whether he will think that , or another more probable . Retr . l. 1. c. 26. Secondly , what he saies of the Succession in the Roman Church in this place , he saies it else where , of all the Successions in all other Apostolique Churches . Thirdly , that as in this place he urgeth the Donatists with separation from the Roman Church , as an argument of their Error : So elsewhere he presseth them with their Separation from other Apostolique Churches , nay more from these then from that , because in Rome the Donatists had a Bishop , though not a perpetuall Succession of them , but in other Apostolique Churches they wanted both . These scatter'd men ( saith he of the Donatists Epist. 165. ) read in the holy bookes the Churches to which the Apostles wrote , and have no Bishop in them : But what is more perverse and mad , then to the Lectors reading these Epistles to say , Peace with you , and to separate from the peace of these Churches , to which these Epistles were written ? So Optatus having done you ( as it might seeme ) great service , in upbraiding the Donatists as Schismatiques , because they had not Communion with the Church of Rome , overthrowes and undoes it all againe , and as it were with a spunge wipes out all that he had said for you , by adding after , that they were Schismatiques , because They had not the fellowship of Cōmunion with the seven Churches of Asia , to which S. Iohn writes : whereof he pronounces confidently , ( though I know not upon what ground ) 〈◊〉 septem Ecclesias quicquid for is est , alienum est . Now I pray tell me , doe you esteeme the Authority of these Fathers a sufficient assurance , that separation from these other Apostolique Churches , was a certain marke of Heresy , or not ? If so , then your Church hath been for many Ages hereticall . If not , how is their authority , a greater argument for the Roman , then for the other Churches ? If you say , they conceived separation from these Churches a note of Schisme , only when they were united to the Roman : so also they might conceive of the Roman , only when it was united to them . If you say , they urg'd this only as a probable , and not as a certain Argument , so also they might doe that . In a word , whatsoever answer you can devise to shew , that these Fathers made not separation from these other Churches a mark of Heresy , apply that to your own Argument , and it will be satisfied . 32 The other place is evidently impertinent to the present question , nor is there in it any thing but this , That Caecilian might contemne the multitude of his adversaries , because those that were united with him were more , and of more account then those that were against him . Had he preferr'd the Roman Church alone , before Caecilians enemies , this had been litle , but something ; but when other Countries from which the Gospell came first into Africa , are joyned in this Patent , with the Church of Rome , how she can build any singular priviledge upon it I am yet to learne ! Neither doe I see what can be concluded from it , but that in the Roman Church was the Principality of an a Apostolique Sea , which no man doubts : or that the Roman Church was not the Mother Church , because the Gospell came first into Africa , not from her , but from other Churches . 33 Thus you see his wordes make very litle , or indeed nothing for you ▪ But now his Action , which according to Cardinall Perrons rule , is much more to be regarded then his words , as not being so obnoxious to misinterpretatiō , I mean his famous opposition of three Bishops of Rome in succession , touching the great question of Appeales , wherein he and the rest of the African Bishops proceeded so farre in the first or second Milevitan Councell , as to b decree any African Excommunicate , that should appeale to any man out of Africk , and therein continued resolute unto death : I say this famous Action of his , makes cleerely and evidently and infinitely against you . For had Boniface , and the rest of the African Bishops , a great part whereof were Saints and Martyrs , believed as an Article of faith , that Vnion and Conformity with the doctrine of the Roman Church , in all things which she held necessary , was a certain note of a good Catholique , and by Gods command necessary to Salvation , how was it possible they should have opposed it in this ? Vnlesse you will say they were all so foolish as to believe at once direct contradictions , viz. that conformity to the Roman Church was necessary in all points , and not necessary in this : or else so horribly impious , as believing this doctrine of the Roman Church true , and her power to receive Appeales derived from divine Authority , notwithstanding to oppose and condemne it , and to Anathematize all those Africans , of what condition soever , that should appeale unto it . I say of what condition soever : For it is evident , that they concluded in their determination , Bishops as well as the inferior Clergy and Laity : And Cardinall Perrons pretence of the contrary , is a shamelesse falshood , repugnant to the plaine words of the Remonstrance of the African Bishops to Celestine Bishop of Rome . 34 Your allegation of Tertullian is a manifest conviction of your want of syncerity : For you produce with great ostentation what he saies of the Church of Rome , but you and your fellowes alwaies conceale and dissemble , that immediatly before these words he attributes as much for point of direction to any other Apostolique Church , and that as he sends them to Rome who lived neare Italy , so those neare Achaia hee sends to Corinth , those about Macedonia to Philippi , and Thessalonica , those of Asia to Ephesus . His words are , Goe to now thou that wilt better imploy thy curiosity in the businesse of thy salvation , run over the Apostolicall Churches , wherein the Chaires of the Apostles are yet sate upon in their places , wherein their Authentique Epistles are recited , sounding out the voyce , and representing the face of of every one ! Is Achaia neere thee ? there thou hast Corinth : If thou art not farre from Macedonia , thou hast Philippi , thou hast Thessalonica : If thou canst goe into Asia , there thou hast Ephesus : If thou be adjacent to Italy , thou hast Rome , whose Authority is neere at hand to us ( in Africk ; ) A happy Church , into which the Apostles powred forth all their Doctrine together with their blood , &c. Now I pray Sir tell me , if you can for blushing , why this place might not have been urg'd by a Corinthian , or Philippian , or Thessalonian , or an Ephesian , to shew that in the judgment of Tertullian , separation from any of their Churches is a certain mark of Heresie , as iustly and rationally as you alleadge it to vindicate this priviledge to the Roman Church only ? Certainly if you will stand to Tertullians judgment , you must either grant the authority of the Roman Church ( though at that time a good Topicall Argument , and perhaps a better then any the Heretiques had , especially in conjunction with other Apostolique Churches : ) yet I say you must grant it perforce but a fallible Guide as well as that of Ephesus , and Thessalonica , and Philippi , and Corinth : or you must maintain the Authority of every one of these infallible , as well as the Roman . For though he make a Panegyrick of the Roman Church in particular , and of the rest only in generall , yet as I have said , for point of direction he makes them all equall ; and therefore makes them ( choose you whether ) either all fallible , or all infallible : Now you will and must acknowledge that he never intended to attribute infallibility to the Churches of Ephesus , or Corinth , or if he did , that ( as experience shewes ) he erred in doing so ; and what can hinder , but then we may say also that he never intended to attribute infallibility to the Roman Church , or if he did that he erred in doing so ? 35 From the saying of S. Basil , certainly nothing can be gathered , but only that the Bishop of Rome may discerne betweene that which is counterfeit , and that which is lawfull and pure , and without any diminution may preach the faith of our Ancestours . Which certainly he might doe , if ambition and covetousnesse did not hinder him , or else I should never condemne him for doing otherwise . But is there no difference betweene may and must ? Beleeve hee may doe so , and he cannot but doe so ? Or doth it follow , because he may doe so , therefore he alwayes shall or will doe so ? In my opinion rather the contrary should follow ! For he that saith you may doe thus , implies according to the ordinary sense of words , that if he will he may doe otherwise . You certainly may if you please leave abusing the world with such Sophistry as this ; but whether you will or no , of that I have no assurance . 36 Your next Witnesse I would willingly have examined , but it seemes you are unwilling he should be found , otherwise you would have givē us your direction where we might have him . Of that Maximianus who succeeded Nestorius , I can find no such thing in the Councels : Neither can I beleeve that any Patriarch of Constantinople twelve hundred yeares agoe was so base a parasite of the Sea of Rome . 37 Your last Witnesse Iohn of Constantinople , I confesse speaks home and advanceth the Roman sea , even to heaven : But I feare it is , that his owne may goe up with it , which hee there professes to bee all one sea with the sea of Rome ; and therefore his Testimony , as speaking in his own case is not much to be regarded . But besides , I have litle reason to be confident that this Epistle is not a forgery , for certainly Binius hath obtruded upon us many a hundred such . This though written by a Graecian is not extant in Greek but in Latine only . Lastly , it comes out of a suspicious place , an old book of the Vatican Library : which Library the world knowes to have been the Mint of very many impostures . 38 Ad § . 20. 21. 22. 23. The summe of your discourse in the 4. next Sections , if it be pertinent to the Question in agitation , must be this : Want of succession of Bishops and Pastours holding alwayes the same doctrine , and of the formes of ordaining Bishops and Priests which are in use in the Roman Church , is a certain mark of Heresie : But Protestants want all these things : Therefore they are Heretiques . To which I Answer , That nothing but want of truth and holding errour , can make or prove any man or Church hereticall . For if he be a true Aristotelian , or Platonist , or Pyrrhoniā , or Epicurean , who holds the doctrine of Aristotle , or Plato , or Pirrho , or Epicurus , although he cannot assigne any that held it before him for many Ages together , why should I not be made a true and orthodox Christian , by beleeving all the doctrine of Christ , though I cannot derive my descent from a perpetuall Successiō that beleev'd it before me ? By this reason you should say as well , that no man can be a good Bishop or Pastour , or King or Magistrate , or Father that succeeds a bad one . For if I may conforme my will and actions to the Commandements of God , why may I not embrace his doctrine with my understanding , although my predecessour doe not so ? You have aboue in this Chapter defin'd Faith a free Infallible , obscure , supernaturall assent to divine Truths , because they are revealed by God & sufficiently propounded : This definition is very phantasticall ; but for the present I will let it passe , and desire you to give me some peece or shadow of reason , why I may not doe all this without a perpetuall Succession of Bishops and Pastours that have done so before me ? You may judge as uncharitably , and speak as maliciously of me , as your blind zeale to your Superstition shall direct you , but certainly I know , ( and with all your Sophistry you cannot make me doubt of what I know , ) that I doe beleeve the Gospell of Christ ( as it is delivered in the undoubted books of Canonicall Scripture , ) as verily as that it is now day , that I see the light , that I am now writing : and I beleeve it upon this Motive , because I conceive it sufficiently , abundantly , superabundantly proved to be divine Revelation . And yet in this , I doe not depend upon any Succession of men that have alwayes beleeved it without any mixture of Errour ; nay I am fully perswaded , there hath been no such Succession , aud yet doe not find my self any way weakned in my faith by the want of it ; but so fully assured of the truth of it , that not only , though your divels at Lowden doe tricks against it , but though an Angell from heaven should gainsay it or any part of it , I perswade my self that I should not be moved . This I say , and this I am sure is true : and if you will be so hyperscepticall as to perswade me , that I am not sure that I doe beleeve all this , I desire you to tell me , how are you sure that you beleeve the Church of Rome ? For if a man may perswade himself he doth beleeve what he doth not beleeve , then may you think you beleeve the Church of Rome , and yet not beleeve it . But if no man can erre concerning what he beleeves , then you must give me leave to assure my selfe that I doe beleeve , and consequently that any man may beleeve the foresaid truths upon the foresaid motives , without any dependance upon any Succession that hath beleeved it alwayes . And as from your definition of faith , so from your definition of Heresy , this phancy may be refuted . For questionlesse no man can be an Heretique but he that holds an Heresie , and an Heresie you say is a Voluntary Errour ; therefore no man can be necessitated to be an Heretique whether he will or no , by want of such a thing that is not in his power to have : But that there should have been a perpetuall Succession of Beleevers in all points Orthodox , is not a thing which is in your power , therefore our being or not being Heretiques depends not on it . Besides , what is more certain , then that he may make a streight line who hath a Rule to make it by , though never man in the world had made any before : and why then may not he that beleeves the Scripture to be the word of God , and the Rule of faith , regulate his faith by it , and consequently beleeve aright without much regarding what other men either will doe or have done ? It is true indeed there is a necessity that if God will have his words beleeved , he by his Providence must take order , that either by succession of men , or by some other meanes naturall or supernaturall , it be preserv'd and delivered , and sufficiently notified to bee his word ; but that this should be done by a Succession of men that holds no errour against it , certainly there is no more necessity , then that it should be done by a Succession of men that commit no sinne against it . For if men may preserve the Records of a Law , and yet transgresse it , certainly they may also preserve directions for their faith , and yet not follow them . I doubt not but Lawyers at the Barre doe find by frequent experience , that many men preserve and produce evidences , which being examined of times make against themselves . This they doe ignorantly , it being in their power to suppresse , or perhaps to alter them . And why then should any man conceive it strange , that an erroneous and corrupted Church should preserve and deliver the Scriptures uncorrupted , when indeed for many reasons which I have formerly alleaged , it was impossible for them to corrupt them ? Seeing therefore this is all the necessity that is pretended of a perpetuall Succession of men orthodoxe in all points , certainly there is no necessity at all of any such , neither can the want of it prove any man or any Church Hereticall . 39 When therefore you have produced some proofe of this , which was your Major in your former Syllogisme , That want of Succession is a certain mark of Heresy , you shall then receive a full answer to your Minor. We shall then consider whether your indelible Character be any reality , or whether it be a creature of your own making , a fancy of your own imagination ? And if it be a thing , and not only a word , whether our Bishops and Priests have it not as well as yours ; & whether some mens perswasion that there is no such thing , can hinder them from having it , or prove that they have it not if there be any such thing ! ( Any more then a mans perswasion that he has not taken Physick or Poyson , will marke him not to have taken it if hee has , or hinder the operation of it ? ) And whether Tertullian in the place quoted by you , speak of a Priest made a Lay-man , by just deposition or degradation , and not by a voluntary desertion of his Order ? And whether in the same place he set not some make upon Heretiques that will agree to your Church ? Whether all the Authority of our Bishops in England before the Reformation , was conferr'd on them by the Pope ? And if it were , whether it were the Pope's right , or an usurpation ? If it were his right , whether by Divine Law or Ecclesiasticall ? And if by Ecclesiasticall only , whether he might possibly so abuse his power , as to deserve to loose it ? Whether de facto he had done so ? Whether supposing he had deserved to loose it , those that deprived him of it had power to take it from him ? Or if not , whether they had power to suspend him from the use of it , untill good caution were put in , and good assurance given , that if he had it again , he would not abuse it as he had formerly done ? Whether in case they had done unlawfully that took his power from him , it may not ( things being now setled , and the present government established ) be as unlawfull to goe about to restore it ? Whether it be not a Fallacy to conclude , because we believe the Pope hath no power in England , now when the King and State and Church hath deprived him upon just grounds of it , therefore wee cannot believe that he had any before his deprivation ? Whether without Schisme , a man may not withdraw obediēce from an usurp'd Authority commanding unlawfull things ? Whether the Roman Church might not give authority to Bishops and Priests to oppose her errors , as well as a King gives Authority to a Iudge to judge against him , if his cause be bad ; as well as Traian gave his sword to his Prefect , with this commission , that if he governed well , he should use it for him , if ill against him . Whether the Roman Church gave not Authority to her Bishops and Priests to preach against her corruptions in manners ? And if so , why not against her errors in doctrine , if she had any ? Whether she gave them not authority to preach the whole Gospell of Christ , and consequently against her doctrine , if it should contradict any part of the Gospell of Christ ? Whether it be not acknowledged lawfull in the Church of Rome , for any Lay man or woman that has ability to perswade others by word or by writing from error , and unto truth ? And why this liberty may not be practised against their Religion , if it be false , as well as for it if it be true ? Whether any man need any other commission or vocation then that of a Christian , to doe a work of charity ? And whether it be not one of the greatest works of Charity ( if it be done after a peaceable manner , and without an unnecessary disturbance of order , ) to perswade men out of a false , unto a true way of eternall happinesse ? Especially the Apostle having assur'd us , that he , ( whosoever he is ) who converteth a sinner from the error of his way , shall save a soule from death , and shall hide a multitude of sinnes ? Whether the first Reformed Bishops died all at once , so that there were not enough to ordain Others in the places that were vacant ? Whether the Bishops of England may not consecrate a Metropolitan of England , as well as the Cardinalls doe the Pope ? Whether the King or Queen of England , or they that have the government in their hands , in the minority of the Prince , may not lawfully commend one to them to be consecrated , against whom there is no Canonicall exception ? Whether the Doctrine , that the King is supream head of the Church of England , ( as the Kings of Iudah , & the first Christian Emperors were of the Iewish and Christian Church , ) be any new found doctrine ? Whether it may not be true , that Bishops being made Bishops , have their authority immediatly from Christ , though this or that man be not made Bishop without the Kings authority ; as well as you say , the Pope being Pope , has authority immediatly from Christ , and yet this or that man cannot be made Pope without the authority of the Cardinalls ? Whether you doe well to suppose , that Christian Kings have no more authority in ordering the affaires of the Church , then the great Turk , or the Pagan Emperors ? Whether the King may not give authority to a Bishop to exercise his function in some part of his Kingdome , and yet not be capable of doing it himselfe : as well as a Bishop may give authority to a Physitian , to practise Physick in his Diocesse , which the Bishop cannot doe himselfe ? Whether if Ner● the Emperour would have commanded S. Peter or S. Paul to preach the Gospell of Christ , and to exercise the office of a Bishop of Rome , whether they would have question'd his Authority to doe so ? Whether there were any Law of God or man , that prohibited K. IAMES to give Commission to Bishops , nay to lay his injunction upon them , to doe any thing that is lawfull ? Whether a casuall irregularity may not be lawfully dispenc'd with ? Whether the Popes irregularities if he should chance to incurre any , be indispensable ? And if not who is he or who are they , whom the Pope is so subject unto , that they may dispense with him ? Whether that be certain which you take for granted ; That your Ordination imprints a character and ours doth not ? Whether the power of consecrating and ordaining by imposition of hands , may not reside in the Bishops , and be derived unto them , not from the King but God ; and yet the King have authority to command them to apply this power to such a fit person , whom he shall commend unto them : As well as if some Architects only had the faculty of architecture , and had it immediatly by infusion from God himselfe , yet , if they were the Kings subjects , he wants not authority to command them to build him a Palace for his use , or a fortresse for his service : Or as the King of France pretends not to have power to make Priests himselfe , yet I hope , you will not deny him power to command any of his subjects that has this power , to ordaine any fit person Priest , whom he shall desire to be ordained ? Whether it doe not follow , that whensoever the King commands an house to be built , a message to be delivered , or a murtherer to be executed , that all these things are presently done without intervention of the Architect , messenger , or executioner : As well as , that they are ipsofacto ordain'd and consecrated , who by the Kings authority are commended to the Bishops to be ordained and consecrated : Especially seeing the King will not deny , but that these Bishops may refuse to doe what he requires to be done , lawfully if the person be unworthy , if worthy , unlawfully indeed , but yet de facto they may refuse : and in case they should doe so , whether justly or unjustly ; neither the King himselfe , nor any body else , would esteeme the person Bishop upon the Kings designation ? Whether many Popes , though they were not consecrated Bishops by any temporall Prince , yet might not , or did not receive authority from the Emperor to exercise their Episcopall function in this or that place ? And whether the Emperors had not authority , upon their desert , to deprive them of their jurisdiction , by imprisonment or banishment ? Whether Protestants doe indeed pretend that their Reformation is universall ? Whether in saying , the Donatists , Sect was confined to Africa , you doe not forget your selfe , and contradict what you said above , in § . 17. of this Chapter , where you tell us , they had some of their Sect residing in Rome ? Whether it be certain , that none can admit of Bishops willingly , but those that hold them of divine institution ? Whether they may not be willing to have them , conceiving that way of government the best , though not absolutely necessary ? Whether all those Protestants that conceive the distinction between Priests and Bishops , not to be of divine institution , be Schismaticall and Hereticall for thinking so ? Whether your forme of ordaining Bishops and Priests , be essentiall to the constitution of a true Church ? Whether the formes of the Church of England differ essentially from your formes ? Whether in saying , that the true Church cannot subsist without undoubted true Bishops and Priests , you have not overthrown the truth of your own Church : wherein I have proved it plainly impossible , that any man should be so much as morally certain , either of his own Priesthood or any other mans ? Lastly , whether any one kind of these externall formes and orders , and government be so necessary to the being of a Church , but that they may not be diverse in diverse places , and that a good and peaceable Christian may and ought to submit himself to the Government of the place where he lives whatsoever it be ? All these Questions will be necessary to be discussed for the clearing of the truth of the Minor proposition of your former Syllogisme , and your proofs of it : and I will promise to debate them fairly with you , if first you will bring some better proof of the Maior , That want of Succession is a certain note of Heresy , which for the present remaines both unprov'd and unprobable . 40 Ad § . 23. The Fathers , you say , assigne Succession as one mark of the true Church : I confesse they did urge Tradition as an argument of the truth of their doctrine and of the falsehood of the contrary ; and thus farre they agree with you . But now see the difference : They urg'd it not against all Heretiques that ever should be , but against them who rejected a great part of the Scripture , for no other reason but because it was repugnant to their doctrine , and corrupted other parts with their additions and detractions , and perverted the remainder with divers absurd interpretations : So Tertullian not a leafe before the words by you cited . Nay they urg'd it against them who when they were confuted out of Scripture , fell to accuse the Scriptures themselves as if they were not right , and came not from good authority , as if they were various one from another , and as if truth could not bee found out of them , by those who know not Tradition , for that it was not delivered in writing , ( they did meane wholly , ) but by word of mouth : And that thereupon Paul also said , wee speak wisdome amongst the perfect . So Irenaeus in the very next Chapter before that which you alleage . Against these men being thus necessitated to doe so , they did urge Tradition , but what or whose Tradition was it : Certainly no other but the joint Tradition of all the Apostolique Churches , with one mouth and one voice teaching the same doctrine . Or if for brevity sake they produce the Tradition of any one Church , yet is it apparent , that , that one was then in conjunction with all the rest ; Irenaeus , Tertullian , Origen , testifie as much in the words cited , and S. Austin , in the place before alleaged by mee . This Tradition they did urge against these men , and in a time , in comparison of ours , almost contiguous to the Apostles : So neare , that one of them , Irenaeus , was Scholar to one who was Scholar to S. Iohn the Apostle , Tertullian and Origen were not an age remov'd from him : and the last of them all , litle more then an age from them . Yet after all this they urg'd it not as a demonstration , but only as a very probable argument , far greater then any their Adversaries could oppose against it . So Tertullian in the place above quoted § . 5. How is it likely that so many and so great Churches should erre in one faith ? ( it should be , should have erred into on faith . ) And this was the condition of this argument as the Fathers urg'd it . Now if you having to deale with us , who question no Booke of Scripture , which was not anciently questioned by some whom you your selves esteem good Catholiques ; nay who refuse not to be tryed by your owne Canons , your own Translations , who in interpreting Scriptures are content to allow of all those rules which you propose , only except that we will not allow you to be our Iudges ; if you will come fifteen hundred years after the Apostles , a fair time for the purest Church to gather much drosse and corruption , and for the mystery of iniquity to bring its work to some perfection , which in the Apostles time began to work , If ( I say ) you will come thus long after and urge us with the single Tradition of one of these Churches , being now Catholique to it selfe alone , and Hereticall to all the rest : nay not only with her ancient and originall Traditions , but also with her post-nate and introduc'd Definitions , and these as we pretend , repugnant to Scripture , and ancient Tradition , and all this to decline an indifferent tryall by Scripture , under pretence ( wherein also you agree with the calumnie of the old Heretiques ) that all necessary truth cannot be found in them without recourse to Tradition : If , I say , notwithstanding all these differences , you will still be urging us with this argument , as the very same and of the same force with that wherewith the fore-mentioned Fathers urg'd the old Heretiques , certainly this must needs proceed from a confidence you have , not only that we have no School-Divinity , nor Metaphysicks , but no Logick or common sense , that we are but pictures of men , and have the definition of rational creatures given us in vain . 41 But now suppose I should be liberall to you , and grant what you cannot prove , that the Fathers make Succession a certain and perpetuall ma●k of the true Church ; I beseech you what will come of it ? What , that want of Succession is a certain signe of an Hereticall company ? Truly if you say so , either you want Logick , which is a certain signe of an ill disputer ; or are not pleas'd to use it , which is a worse . For speech is a certain signe of a living man , yet want of speech is no sure argument that he is dead , for he may be dumb and yet living still , and we may have other evident tokens that hee is so , as eating , drinking , breathing , moving : So , though the constant and universall delivery of any doctrine by the Apostolique Churches ever since the Apostles , be a very great argument of the truth of it , yet there is no certainty , but that truth , even Divine truth , may through mens wickednesse , be contracted from its universality , and interrupted in its perpetuity , and so loose this argument , and yet not want others to iustifie and support it self . For it may be one of those principles which God hath written in all mens hearts , or a conclusion evidently arising from them : It may be either contain'd in Scripture in expresse terms , or deducible from it by apparent consequence . If therefore you intend to prove want of a perpetuall Succession of Professors a certain note of Heresie , you must not content your self to shew , that having it is one signe of truth ; but you must shew it to be the only signe of it and inseparable from it . But this , if you be well advis'd , you will never undertake . First because it is an impossible attempt : and then because if you doe it you will marre all : for by proving this an inseparable signe of Catholique doctrine , you will prove your own , which apparently wants it in many points , not to be Catholique . For whereas you say this Succession requires two things , agreement with the Apostles doctrine , and an uninterrupted conveyance of it down to them that challenge it : It will be prov'd against you that you fail in both points ; and that some things wherein you agree with the Apostles have not been held alwaies , as your condemning the doctrine of the Chiliasts , and holding the Eucharist not necessary for Infants ; and that in many other things you agree not with them nor with the Church for many ages after . For example ; In mutilation of the Communion , in having your Service in such a language as the Assistants generally understand nor , your offering to Saints , your picturing of God , your worshipping of Pictures . 42 Ad § . 24. As for Vniversality of place , the want whereof you object to Protestants as a marke of Heresie : You have not set down cleerely and univocally what you mean by it , whether universality of fact or of right : and if of fact , whether absolute or comparative : and if comparative , whether of the Church in comparisō of any other Religion , or only of Hereticall Christians : or if in comparison of these , whether in comparison of all other Sects conjoyn'd , or in comparison only of any One of them . Nor have you proved it by any good argument in any sense to be a certain mark of Heresy : For those places of S. Austine doe not deserve the name . And truly in my judgement you have done advisedly in proving it no better . For as for Vniversality of right , or a right to Vniversality , all Religions claime it , but only the true has it , and which has it cannot be determin'd , unlesse it first be determin'd which is the true . An absolute Vniversality , and diffusion through all the world if you should pretend to , all the world would laugh at you . If you should contend for latitude with any one Religion , Mahumetisme would carry the victory from you . If you should oppose your selves against all other Christians besides you , it is certain you would be cast in this suit also . If lastly , being hard driven you should please you selves with being more then any one Sect of Christiās , it would presently be replied , that it is ūcertain whether now you are so , but most certain that the time has been when you have not been so . Then when the a whole world wondred that it was become Arrian : then when Athanasius oppos'd the world , and the world Athanasius : then when b your Liberius having the contemptible paucity of his adherents objected to him as a note of error , answered for himselfe , There was a time when there were but three opposed the decree of the King , and yet those three were in the right , and the rest in the wrong : then when the Professors of error surpassed the number of the Professors of truth in proportion , as the sands of the Sea doe the Starres of the Heaven . ( As c S. Austine acknowledgeth : ) then when d Vincentius confesseth , that the poyson of the Arrians had contaminated , not now some certain portion , but almost the whole World : then when the author of Nazianzens life testifies , That e the Heresy of Arrius , had possessed in a manner the whole extent of the world ; and when Nazianzen found cause to cry out , f Where are they who reproach us with our pouerty , who define the Church by the multitude , and despise the little flock ? They have the People , but we the faith . And lastly when Athanasius was so overborn with Sholes & floods of Arriās , that he was enforc'd to write a Treatise on purpose g against those , who judge of the truth only by plurality of adherents . So that if you had prov'd want of Universality even thus restrained , to be an infallible note of Heresy , there would have been no remedy but you must have confessed , that the time was when you were Heretiques . And besides , I see not how you would have avoided this great inconvenience , of laying grounds and storeing up arguments for Antichrist , against he comes , by which he may prove his Company the true Church . For it is evident out of Scripture , and confessed by you , that though his time be not long , his dominion shall be very large ; and that the true Church shall be then , the woman driven into the wildernesse . 43 Ad § . 25. & 26. The remainder of this Chapter if I would deale strictly with you , I might let passe as impertinent to the question now disputed . For whereas your argument promises that this whole Chapter shall be imploied in proving Luther & the Protestants guilty of Heresy , here you desert this question , and strike out into another accusation of them , that their faith even of the truth they hold , is not indeed true faith . But put case it were not , does it follow , that the having of this faith makes them Heretiques , or that they are therefore Heretiques because they have this faith ? Aristotle beleeved there were Intelligences which moved the Spheares ; he believed this with an humane perswasion , and not with a certain , obscure , prudent , supernaturall faith : and will you make Aristotle an Heretique , because he believed so ? You believe there was such a man as Iulius Caesar , that there is such a City as Constantinople , and your beliefe here of has not these qualifications which you require : And will you be content that this shall passe for a sufficient proofe that you are an Heretique ? Heresy you have defin'd above to be a voluntary error : but he that believes truth , though his belief be not qualified according to your minde , yet sure in believing truth he believes no error ; & from hence according to ordinary Logick methinkes it should follow , that such a man for doing so , cannot be guilty of Heresy . 44 But you will say , though he be not guilty of Heresy for believing these truths , yet if his faith be not saving , to what purpose will it be ? Truly very litle to the purpose of Salvation , as litle as it is to your proving Protestants guilty of Heresy . But out of our wonted indulgence , let us pardon this fault also , and doe you the favour to hear what you can say , to beget this faith in us , that indeed wee have no faith , or at least not such a faith , without which it is impossible to please God. Your discourse upon this point , you have , I know not upon what policie , disjoynted , and given us the grounds of it in the begining of the Chapter , and the superstructure here in the end . Them I have already examined , and for a great part of them , proved them vain and deceitfull . I have shewed by many certain arguments , that though the subject matter of our faith be in it selfe most certain , yet that absolute certainty of adherence , is not required to the essence of faith , no nor to make it acceptable with God , but that to both these effects it is sufficient , if it be firme enough to produce Obedience and Charity . I haue shewed besides , that Prudence is rather commendable in faith , then intrinsecall and essentiall to it . So that whatsoever is here said , to prove the faith of Protestants no faith , for want of certainty or for want of prudence , is already answered before it is objected : for the foundation being destroyed the building cannot stand . Yet for the fuller refutation of all pretences , I will here make good , that to prove our faith destitute of these qualifications , you have produc'd but vain Sophismes , and for the most part , such arguments as returne most violently upon your selves . Thus then you say , 45 First that their belief wanteth certainty , I prove , because they denying the universall Infallibility of the Church , can have no certain ground to know what objects are revealed or testified by God. But if there be no other ground of certainty but your Churches infallibility , upon what certain ground doe you know that your Church is infallible ? Upon what certain ground doe you know all those things which must be known before you can know that your Church is infallible ? As that there is a God : that God hath promised his assistance to your Church in all her Decrees : that the Scripture wherein this promise is extant is the word of God : that those texts of Scripture which you alleage for your infallibility are incorrupted : that that which you pretend is the true sense of them ? When you have produc'd certain grounds for all these things , I doubt not but it will appeare , that we also may have grounds certain enough to believe our whole Religion , which is nothing else but the Bible , without dependance on the Churches infallibility . Suppose you should meet with a man that for the present , believes neither Church , nor Scripture , nor God , but is ready & willing to believe them all , if you can shew some sufficient grounds to build his faith upon ; will you tell such a man there are no certain grounds , by which he may be converted ; or there are ? If you say the first , you make all Religion an uncertain thing ; If the second , then either you must ridiculously perswade , that your Church is infallible , because it is infallible , or else that there are other certain grounds besides your Churches infallibility . 46 But you proceed and tell us , that Holy Scripture is in it selfe most true and infallible , but without the direction and declaration of the Church , we can neither have certain meanes to know what Scripture is Canonicall , nor what Translations be faithfull , nor what is the true meaning of Scripture . Answ. But all these things must be known , before we can know the direction of your Church to be infallible , for no other proofe of it can be pretended , but only some Texts of Canonicall Scripture , truly interpreted : Therefore either you are mistaken , in thinking there is no other meanes to know these things , but your Churches infallible direction , or we are excluded from all meanes of knowing her direction to be infallible . 47 But Protestants , though as you suppose , they are perswaded their own oponions are true , and that they have used such meanes as are wont to be prescribed for understanding the Scripture , as Prayer , conferring of Texts &c. Yet by their disagreement shew , that some of them are deceived . Now they hold all the Articles of their faith , upon this only ground of Scripture , interpreted by these rules , and therefore it is cleere , that the ground of their faith is infallible in no point at all . The first of these suppositions must needs be true , but the second is apparently false : I mean , that every Protestant is perswaded that he hath used those means which are prescribed for understanding of Scripture . But that which you collect from these suppositions is cleerely inconsequent : and by as good Logick you might conclude , that Logick and Geometry stand upon no certain grounds , that the rules of the one , and the principles of the other doe sometimes faile , because the disagreement of Logicians and Geometricians shew , that some of them are deceived . Might not a Iew conclude as well against all Christians , that they have no certain ground whereon to rely in their understanding of Scripture , because their disagreements shew that some are deceived ; because some deduce from it the infallibility of a Church , and others no such matter ? So likewise a Turke might use the same argument against both Iewes and Christians , and an Atheist against all Religions , and a Sceptick against all reason . Might not the one say , Mens disagreement in Religion , shew that there is no certainty in any ; and the other , that experience of their contradictions teacheth , that the rules of reason doe sometimes faile ? Doe not you see and feele how void of reason and how full of impiety your sophistry is ? And how transported with zeale against Protestants , you urge arguments against them , which if they could not be answered , would overthrow not only your own , but all Religion ? But God be thanked , the answere is easy and obvious ! For let men but remember not to impute the faults of men but only to men , and then it will easily appear , that there may be sufficient certainty in reason , in Religion , in the rules of interpreting Scripture , though men through their faults , take not care to make use of them , and so run into divers errors and dissentions . 48 But Protestants cannot determine what points be fundamentall , and therefore must remain uncertain , whether or no they be not in some fundamentall error . Ans. By like reason since you acknowledge , that every error in points defin'd and declared by your Church destroies the substance of faith , and yet cannot determine what points be defined , it followeth that you must remain uncertain , whether or no you be not in some fundamentall error , and so want the substance of faith , without which there can be no hope of Salvation . Now that you are uncertain what points are defined , appeares from your owne words . c. 4. § . 3. of your second Part , where say you , No lesse impertinent is your discourse , concerning the difficulty to know what is Heresy : For we grant that it is not alwaies easy to determine in particular occasions , whether this or that Doctrine be such , because it may be doubtfull , whether it be against any Scripture , or divine Tradition , or Definition of the Church . Neither were it difficult to extort from you this confession , by naming diverse Points , which some of you say are defin'd , others the contrary . And others hang in suspense , and know not what to determine . But this I have done elsewhere : as also I have shewed plainly enough , that though we cannot perhaps say in particular , thus much , and no more is fundamentall , yet believing all the Bible , we are certain enough that we believe all that is fundamentall . As he that in a receit , takes twenty ingredients whereoften only are necessary , though he know not which those ten are , yet taking the whole twenty he is sure enough that he has taken all that are necessary . 49 Ad § . 29. But that he who erreth against any one revealed truth looseth all Divine Faith , is a very true doctrine delivered by Catholique Divines , ( you mean your own ) with so generall a consent , that the contrary is wont to be censur'd as temerarious : Now certainly some Protestants must doe so , because they hold contradictions which cannot all be true ; Therefore some of them at least , have no divine faith . Ans. I passe by your weaknesse , in urging Protestants with the authority of your Divines , which yet in you might very deservedly be censur'd . For when D. Potter , to shew the many actuall dissentions between the Romish Doctors , notwithstanding their braggs of potentiall Vnity , referres to Pappus , who has collected out of Bellar ▪ their contradictions , and set them down in his own words to the number of 237. & to Flacius , de Sect is & controversiis Religionis Papisticae ; you making the very same use of M. Breerely against Protestants ; yet jeere and scorne D. Potter , as if he offer'd you for a proofe , the bare authority of Pappus and Flacius , and tell him , which is all the answer you vouchsafe him , It is pretty that he brings Pappus and Flacius , flat Heretiques , to prove your many contradictions ▪ As if he had proved this with the bare authority , the bare judgement of these men , which sure he does not , but with the formall words of Bellarmine faithfully collected by Pappus . And why then might not we say to you , Is it not pretty that you bring Breerly as flat an Heretique as Pappus or Flacius , to prove the contradictions of Protestants ? Yet had he been so vain as to presse you with the meere authority of Protestant Divines in any point , me thinkes for your own sake , you should have pardon'd him , who here and in many other places , urge us with the judgement of your Divines as with weighty arguments . Yet , if the authority of your Divines were even Canonicall , certainly nothing could be concluded from it in this matter , there being not one of them , who delivers for true doctrine this position of yours , thus nakedly set down , That any error against any one revealed truth destroies all divine faith . For they all require , ( not your selfe excepted ) that this truth must not only be revealed , but revealed publiquely , and ( all things considered ) sufficiently propounded to the erring Party , to be one of those , which God under pain of damnation commands all men to believe . And therefore the contradiction of Protestants ( though this vaine doctrine of your Divines were supposed true , is but a weak argument ) That any of them have no divine . Faith , seeing you neither have , not ever can prove ▪ ( without begging the Question of your Churches infallibility , ) that the truthes about which they differ , are of this quality and condition . But though out of curtesy wee may suppose this doctrine true , yet we have no reason to grant it , nor to think it any thing but a vain and groundlesse fancy : and that this very weak and inartificiall argument , from the authority of your Divines , is the strongest pillar which it hath to support it . Two reasons you alleage for it out of Thomas Aquinas , the first whereof vainly supposeth against reason and experience , that by the commission of any deadly sinne , the habit of Charity is quite extirpated . And for the second , though you cry it up for an Achilles , and think like the Gorgons head it will turne us all into stone , and in confidence of it , insult upon D. Potter as if he durst not come near it , yet in very truth having considered it well , I finde it a serious , grave , prolixe , and profound nothing . I could answer it in a word , by telling you , that it beggs without all proofe or colour of proofe , the main question between us , that the infallibility of your Church is either the formall motive , or rule , or a necessary condition of faith : which you know we flatly deny , and therefore all that is built upon it has nothing but wind for a foundation . But to this answer I will adde a large confutation of this vain fancy , out of one of the most rationall and profound Doctors of your own Church , I mean Estius , who upon the third of the Sent. the 23. dist ▪ the 13. § . writes thus , It is disputed ( saith he ) whether in him who believes some of the Articles of our faith , and disbelieves others , or perhaps someone , there be faith properly so called in respect of that which he does believe ? In which question we must before all , carefully distinguish between those , who retaining a generall readinesse to believe whatsoever the Church believes , yet erre by ignorance in some doctrine of faith , because it is not as yet sufficiently declared to them that the Church does so believe ; and those who after sufficient manifestation of the Churches doctrine , doe yet choose to dissent from it , either by doubting of it , or affirming the contrary . For of the former the answer is easy ; but of these , that is , of Heretiques retaining some part of wholsome doctrine , the question is more difficult , and on both sides by the Doctors probably disputed . For that there is in them true faith of the Articles wherein they doe not erre , first experience seemes to convince : For many at this day denying , for example sake , Purgatory , or Invocation of Saints , neverthelesse firmely hold , as by divine revelation , that God is Three and One ▪ that the Sonne of God was incarnate and suffered , and other like things . ●As anciently the Novatians , excepting their peculiar error , of denying reconciliation to those that fell in persecution , held other things in common with Catholiques : So that they assisted them very much against the Arrians , as Socrates relates in his Eccl. Hist. Moreover the same thing is proved by the example of the Apostles , who in the time of Christs passion being scandaliz'd , lost their faith in him : as also , Christ after his resurrection upbraids them with their incredulity , and calls Thomas incredulous , for denying the Resurrection , Ioh. 20. Whereupon S. Austine also in his preface upon the 96. Ps. saith , That after the Resurrection of Christ , the faith of those that fell was restored again . And yet we must not say , that the Apostles then lost the faith of the Trinity , of the Creation of the world , of Eternall life , and such like other Articles . Besides , the Iewes before Christs comming , held the faith of one God the Creator of Heaven and Earth : who although they lost the true faith of the Messias by not receiving Christ , yet we cannot say , that they lost the faith of one God , but still retained this Article as firmely as they did before . Adde hereunto , that neither Iewes nor Heretiques seeme to lye , in saying they believe either the books of the Prophets , or the four Gospels : It being apparent enough , that they acknowledge in them Divine Authority , though they hold not the true sense of them , to which purpose is that in the Acts. c. 20. Believest thou the Prophets ? I know that thou believest . Lastly it is manifest , that many gifts of God , are found even in bad men , and such as are out of the Church ; therefore nothing hinders but that Iewes and Heretiques , though they erre in many things , yet in other things may be so divinely illuminated as to believe aright . So S. Austin seemes to teach in his book , De Vnico Baptismo : contra Pe●ilianum c. 3. in these words : When a Iew comes to us to be made a Christian , we destroy not in him Gods good things but his own ill . That he believes one God is to be worshipped , that he hopes for eternall life , that he doubts not of the Resurrection , we approve and commend him : we acknowledge , that as he did believe these things , so he is still to believe them , and as he did hold , so he is still to hold them . Thus he : subioyning more to the same purpose in the next , and again in the 26. Chapter , and in his third book , De Bapt. contr . Donat. cap. ult . and upon Psal. 64. But now this reason seems to perswade the contrary : Because the formall obiect of faith seemes to be the first verity , as it is manifested by the Churches Doctrine as the Divine and infallible Rule , wherefore whosoever adheres not to this Rule , although he assent to some matters of faith , yet he embraces them not with faith , but with some other kinde of assent : as if a man assent to a conclusion , not knowing the reason by which it is demonstrated , he hath not true knowledge , but an opinion only of the same conclusion . Now that an Heretique adheres not to the r●le aforesaid , it is manifest : Because if he did adhere to it , as divine and infallible , he would receive all without exception , which the Church teacheth , and so would not be an Heretique . After this manner discourseth S. Thom. 2. 2. q. 5. art . 3. From whom yet Dur and dissents upon this distinction , thinking there may be in an Heretique true faith , in respect of the Articles in which he doth not erre . Others , as Scotus and Bonaventure , define not the matter plainly , but seeme to choose a middle way . To the authority of S. Austine and these Schooleme● , this may be adjoyned , That it is usuall with good Christians to say , that Heretiques have not the entire faith . Whereby it seemes to be intimated , that some part of it they doe retaine . Whereof this may be another reason : That if the truths which a Iew or a Heretique holds , he should not hold them by faith , but after some other manner , to wit , by his own proper will and judgement , it will follow , that all that excellent knowledge of God and divine things , which is found in them , is to be attributed not to the grace of God , but the strength of Free will , which is against S. Austine , both elsewhere , and especially in the end of his book De potentia . As for the reason alleaged to the contrary , We answer : It is impertinent to faith , by what meanes we believe the prime Verity , that is , by what meanes God useth to conferre upon men the gift of Faith. For although now the ordinary meanes be the Testimony and teaching of the Church , yet it is certain that by other meanes , faith hath been given heretofore , and is given still . For many of the Ancients , as Adam , Abraham , Melchisedeck , Iob , received faith by speciall revelation ; the Apostles by the Miracles and Preaching of Christ ; others again by the Preaching and miracles of the Apostles ; and Lastly others , by other meanes , when as yet they had heard nothing of the infallibility of the Church ; to little Children by Baptisme , without any other help , faith is infus'd : And therefore it is possible , that a man not adhering to the Churches doctrine as a Rule infallible , yet may receive some things for the word of God , which doe indeed truly belong to the faith , either because they are now , or heretofore have been confirm'd by miracles : Or because he manifestly sees that the ancient Church taught so , or upon some other inducement . And yet neverthelesse we must not say , that Heretiques and Iewes doe hold the Faith , but only some part of the Faith. For the Faith signifies an entire thing , and compleat in all parts ; whereupon an Heretique is said to be simply an Infidell , to have lost the Faith , and according to the Apostle 1. Tim. 1. to have made shipwrack of it , although he holds some things , with the same strength of assent and readinesse of will , wherewith by others are held all those points which appertaine to the Faith. And thus farre Estius . Whose discourse I presume may passe for a sufficient refutation of your argumēt out of Aquinas . And therefore your Corollaries drawn from it , That every error against faith , involves opposition against Gods testimony , That Protestants have no Faith , no certainty , and that you have all Faith , must together with it fall to the ground . 50 But if Protestants have certainty , they want obscurity , and so have not that faith , which as the Apostle saith is of things not appearing . This argument you prosecute in the next Paragraph ; But I can find nothing in it , to convince or perswade me that Protestants cannot have as much certainty as is required to faith , of an object not so evident as to beget science . If obscurity will not consist with certainty in the highest degree , then you are to blame for requiring to faith contradicting conditions . If certainty and obscurity will stand together , what reason can be imagin'd that a Protestant may not entertain them both as well as a Papist ? Your bodies & souls , your understandings and wills are , I think , of the same condition with ours : And why then may not we be certain of an obscure thing as well as you ? And as you made this long discourse against Protestants , why may not wee putting Church instead of Scripture , send it back again to you ? And say ; If Papists have certainty , they want obscurity , and so have not that faith , which as the Apostle saith , is of things not appearing , or not necessitating our understanding to an assent ? For the whole edifice of the faith of Papists is setled on these two principles , These particular propositions are the propositions of the Church , And the sense and meaning of them is clear and evident , at least in all points necessary to salvation . Now these principles being one suppos'd , it clearly followeth , that what Papists beleeve as necessary to salvation is evidently known by them to be true , by this argument ; It is certain and evident , that whatsoever is the word of God or Divine Revelation is true ; But it is certain and evident that these propositions of the Church in particular are the word of God and Divine Revelations ; therefore it is certain and evident , that all propositions of the Church are true . Which Conclusion I take for a Major in a second argument , and say thus ; It is certain and evident that all propositions of the Church are true ; But it is certain and evident , that such particulars , for example , The lawfulnesse of the halfe Communion , The lawfulnesse and expedience of Latine Service , the Doctrine of Transubstantiation , Indulgences &c. are the Propositions of the Church ; therefore it is certain and evident that these particular objects are true . Neither will it avail you to say , that the said principles are not evident by naturall discourse , but only by the eye of reason clear'd by grace : For supernaturall evidence , no lesse ( yea rather more ) drowns and excludes obscurity , then naturall evidence doth . Neither can the Partie so enlightned , be said voluntarily to captivate his understanding to that light , but rather his understanding is by necessity made captive and forc'd not to disbeleeve what is presented by so clear a light . And therefore your imaginary faith is not the true faith defined by the Apostle , but an invention of your own . 51 And having thus cryed quittance with you , I must intreat you to devise ( for truly I cannot ) some answer to this argument , which will not serve in proportion to your own . For I hope you will not pretend that I have done you injurie , in setling your faith upon principles which you disclaim . And if you alleage this disparity , That you are more certain of your principles , then we of ours , and yet you doe not pretend that your principles are so evident , as we doe that ours are : what is this to say , but that you are more confident then we , but confesse you have lesse reason for it ? For the evidence of the thing assented to , be it more or lesse , is the reason and cause of the assent in the understanding . But then besides , I am to tell you , that you are here , as every where , extremely , if not affectedly mistaken in the Doctrine of Protestants ; who though they acknowledge , that the things which they beleeve are in themselves as certain as any demonstrable or sensible verities , yet pretend not that their certainty of adherence is most perfect and absolute , but such as may be perfected and increas'd as long as they walke by faith and not by sight . And consonant hereunto is their doctrine touching the evidence of the objects whereunto they adhere . For you abuse the world & them , if you pretend that they hold the first of your two principles , That these particular Books are the word of God , ( for so I think you mean ) either to be in it self evidently certain , or of it self and being devested of the motives of credibility , evidently credible : For they are not so fond as to be ignorant , nor so vain as to pretend , that all men doe assent to it , which they would if it were evidently certain , nor so ridiculous as to imagine , that if an Indian that never heard of Christ or Scripture , should by chance find a Bible in his own Language , and were able to read it , that upon the reading it hee would certainly without a miracle beleeve it to bee the word of God : which he could not chuse if it were evidently credible . What then doe they affirm of it ? Certainly no more then this , that whatsoever man that is not of a perverse mind , shall weigh with serious and mature deliberation , those great moments of reason which may incline him to beleeve the Divine authority of Scripture , and compare them with the light objections that in prudence can be made against it , he shall not chuse but find sufficient nay abundant inducements to yeeld unto it firme faith and syncere obedience . Let that learned man Hugo Grotius speake for all the Rest , in his Booke of the truth of Christian Religion ; which Book whosoever attentively peruses shall find that a man may have great reason to be a Christian without dependance upon your Church for any part of it : and that your Religion is no foundation , but rather a scandall and an objection against Christianity . He then in the last Chapter of his second book hath these excellent words , If any be not satisfied with these arguments above-said , but desires more forcible reasons for confirmation of the excellency of Christian Religion , let such know that as there are variety of things which be true , so are there divers waies of proving or manifesting the truth . Thus is there one way in Mathematicks , another in Physicks , a third in Ethicks , and lastly another kind when a matter of fact is in question : wherein verily we must rest content with such testimonies as are free from all suspition of untruth ; otherwise down goes all the frame and use of history , and a great part of the art of Physick , together with all dutifulnesse that ought to be between parents and children : for matters of practice can no way else be known but by such testimonies . Now it is the pleasure of Almighty God that those things which he would have us to beleeve ( so that the very beleef thereof may be imputed to us for obedience ) should not so evidently appear , as those things which are apprehended by sense and plaine demonstration , but only be so farre forth revealed as may beget faith , and a perswasion thereof , in the hearts and minds of such as are not obstinate : That so the Gospell may be as a touchstone for triall of mens judgments , whether they be sound or unsound . For seeing these arguments , whereof we have spoken , have induced so many honest , godly , and wise men to approve of this Religion , it is thereby plain enough that the fault of other mens infidelity is not for want of sufficient testimony , but because they would not have that to be had and embraced for truth which is contrary to their wilfull desires ; it being a hard matter for them to relinquish their honours , and set at naught other commodities ; which thing they know they ought to doe , if they admit of Christs doctrine and obey what he hath commanded . And this is the rather to be noted of them , for that many other historicall narrations are approved by them to be true , which notwithstanding are only manifest by authority , and not by any such strong proofs , and perswasions , or tokens , as doe declare the history of Christ to be true : which are evident , partly by the confession of those Iewes that are yet alive ; and partly in those companies and congregations of Christians which are any where to be found ; whereof doubtlesse there was some cause . Lastly seeing the long duration or continuance of Christian Religion , and the large extent thereof can be ascribed to no humane power , therefore the same must be attributed to miracles : or if any deny that it came to passe through a miraculous manner ; this very getting so great strength and power without a miracle , may be thought to surpasse any miracle . 52 And now you see I hope that Protestants neither doe nor need to pretend to any such evidence in the doctrine they beleeve , as cannot well consist both with the essence and the obedience of faith . Let us come now to the last nullity which you impute to the faith of Protestants , and that it is want of Prudence . Touching which point , as I have already demonstrated , that wisdome is not essentiall to faith , but that a man may truly beleeve truth , though upon insufficient motives ; So I doubt not but I shall make good , that if prudence were necessary to faith , we have better title to it then you ; and that if a wiser then Solomon were here , he should have better reason to beleeve the Religion of Protestants then Papists , the Bible rather then the Councell of Trent . But let us hear what you can say ! 53 Ad § . 31. You demand then first of all , What wisdome was it to forsake a Church confessedly very ancient , and besides which there could be demonstrated no other Visible Church of Christ upon earth ? I answer : Against God and truth there lyes no presoription , and therefore certainly it might be great wisdome to forsake ancient errours for more ancient Truths . One God is rather to be follow'd then innumerable worlds of men : And therefore it might be great wisdome either for the whole Visible Church , nay for all the men in the world , having wandred from the way of Truth , to return unto it ; or for a part of it , nay for one man to doe so , although all the world besides were madly resolute to doe the contrary . It might be great wisdome to forsake the errors though of the only Visible Church , much more the Roman , which in conceiving her self the whole Uisible Church , does somewhat like the Frog in the Fable , which thought the ditch he liv'd in to be all the world . 54 You demand again , What wisdome was it to forsake a Church acknowledg'd to want nothing necessary to Salvation , indued with Succession of Bishops , &c , usque ad Election or Choice ? I answer : Yet might it be great wisdome to forsake a Church not acknowledged to want nothing necessary to Salvation , but accused and convicted of many damnable errors : certainly damnable to them who were convicted of them , had they still persisted in them after their conviction ; though perhaps pardonable ( which is all that is acknowledg'd ) to such as ignorantly continued in them . A Church vainly arrogating without possibility of proof a perpetuall Succession of Bishops , holding alwaies the same doctrine ; and with a ridiculous impudence pretending perpetuall possession of all the world : whereas the world knows , that a litle before Luthers arising , your Church was confined to a part of a part of it . Lastly a Church vainly glorying in the dependance of other Churches upon her , which yet she supports no more then those crouching Anticks which seeme in great buildings to labour under the weight they beare , doe indeed support the Fabrick . For a corrupted and false Church may give authority to preach the truth , and consequently against her own falshoods and corruptions . Besides , a false Church may preserve the Scripture true , ( as now the Old Testament is preserved by the Iewes , ) either not being arriv'd to that height of impiety as to attempt the corruption of it , or not able to effect it , or not perceiving , or not regarding the opposition of it to her corruptions . And so we might receive from you lawfull Ordination and true Scriptures , though you were a false Church ; and receiving the Scriptures from you ( though not from you alone , ) I hope you cannot hinder us , neither need wee aske your leave , to believe and obey them . And this , though you be a false Church , is enough to make us a true one . As for a Succession of men that held with us in all points of Doctrine , it is a thing we need not , and you have as litle as we . So that if we acknowledge that your Church before Luther was a true Church , it is not for any ends , for any dependance that we have upon you ; but because we conceive that in a charitable construction , you may passe for a true Church . Such a Church ( and no better ) as you doe sometimes acknowledge Protestants to be , that is , a Company of men , wherein some ignorant soules may be saved . So that in this ballancing of Religion against Religion , and Church against Church , it seemes you have nothing of weight and moment to put into your scale ; nothing but smoak and winde , vaine shadowes and phantasticall pretences . Yet if Protestants on the other side , had nothing to put in their Scale but those negative commendations which you are pleas'd to afford them ; nothing but , no unity , nor meanes to procure it ; no farther extent when Luther arose then Luthers body ; no Vniversality of time or place ; no visibility or being , except only in your Church ; no Succession of persons or doctrine ; no leader but Luther , in a quarrell begun upon no ground but passion ; no Church , no Ordination , no Scriptures but such as they receiv'd from you ; if all this were true , and this were all that could be pleaded for Protestants , possibly with an allowance of three graines of partiality your Scale might seem to turne . But then if it may appear that part of these objections are falsely made against them , the rest vainely ; that whatsoever of truth is in these imputations , is impertinent to this triall , and whatsoever is pertinent is untrue ; and besides , that plenty of good matter may be alleaged for Protestants which is here dissembled : Then I hope , our cause may be good notwithstanding these pretences . 55 I say then , that want of Vniversality of time & place , The invisibility or not existence of the professors of Protestant Doctrine before Luther , Luthers being alone when he first opposed your Church , Our having our Church , Ordination , Scriptures , personall and yet not doctrinall Succession from you , are vain and impertinent allegations , against the truth of our Doctrine and Church . That the entire truth of Christ without any mixture of error should be professed or believed in all places at any time , or in any place at all times , is not a thing evident in reason , neither have we any Revelation for it . And therefore in relying so confidently on it , you build your house upon the sand . And what obligation we had either to be so peevish , as to take nothing of yours , or so foolish as to take all , I doe not understand . For whereas you say that this is to be choosers and therefore Heretiques , I tell you that though all Heretiques are choosers , yet all choosers are not Heretiques , otherwise they also , which choose your Religion must be Heretiques . As for our wanting Vnity and Meanes of proving it , Luthers opposing your Church upon meere passion , our following private men rather then the Catholique Church ; the first and last are meere untruths , for we want not Vnity , nor Meanes to procure it in things necessary . Plain places of Scripture , and such as need no interpreter are our meanes to obtaine it . Neither doe we follow any private men , but only the Scripture , the word of God as our rule , and reason , which is also the gift of God given to direct us in all our actions , in the use of this rule . And then for Luthers opposing your Church upon meere passion , it is a thing I will not deny because I know not his heart , and for the same reason you should not have affirmed it . Sure I am , whether he opposed your Church upon reason or no , he had reason enough to oppose it . And therefore if he did it upon passion , we will follow him only in his action and not in his passion , in his opposion , not in the manner of it ; and then I presume you will have no reason to condemne us , unlesse you will say that a good action cannot be done with reason , because some body before us hath done it upon passion . You see then how imprudent you have been in the choice of your arguments , to prove Protestants unwise in the choice of their Religion . 56 It remaines now , that I should shew that many reasons of moment may bee alleaged for the justification of Protestants , which are dissembled by you , and not put into the ballance . Know then Sir that when I say , The Religion of Protestants , is in prudence to be preferr'd before yours : as on the one side I doe not understand by your Religion , the doctrine of Bellarmine or Baronius , or any other privat man amongst you , nor the Doctrine of the Sorbon , or of the Iesuits , or of the Dominicans , or of any other particular Company among you , but that wherein you all agree , or professe to agree , the Doctrine of the Councell of Trent : so accordingly on the other side , by the Religion of Protestants , I doe not understand the Doctrine of Luther , or Calvin , or Melancthon ; nor the Confession of Augusta , or Geneva , nor the Catechisme of Heidelberg , nor the Articles of the Church of England , no nor the Harmony of Protestant Confessions ; but that wherin they all agree , and which they all subscribe with a greater Harmony , as a perfect rule of their Faith and Actions , that is , The BIBLE . The BIBLE , I say , The BIBLE only is the Religion of Protestants ! Whatsoever else they believe besides it , and the plain , irrefragable , indubitable consequences of it , well may they hold it as a matter of Opinion , but as matter of Faith and Religion , neither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it themselves , nor require the beliefe of it of others , without most high and most Schismaticall presumption . I for my part after a long ( and as I verily believe & hope , ) impartiall search of the true way to eternall happinesse , doe professe plainly that I cannot find any rest for the sole of my foot , but upon this Rock only . I see plainly and with mine own eyes , that there are Popes against Popes , Councells against Councells , some Fathers against others , the same Fathers against themselves , a Consent of Fathers of one age against a Consent of Fathers of another age , the Church of one age against the Church of another age . Traditive interpretations of Scripture are pretended , but there are few or none to be found : No Tradition but only of Scripture , can derive it selfe from the fountain , but may be plainly prov'd , either to have been brought in , in such an age after Christ ; or that in such an age it was not in . In a word , there is no sufficient certainty but of Scripture only , for any considering man to build upon . This therefore , and this only I have reason to believe : This I will professe , according to this I will live , and for this , if there be occasion , I will not only willingly , but even gladly loose my life , though I should be sorry that Christians should take it from me . Propose me any thing out of this book , and require whether I believe it or no , and seeme it never so incomprehensible to humane reason , I will subscribe it with hand and heart , as knowing no demonstration can be stronger then this , God hath said so , therefore it is true . In other things I will take no mans liberty of judgement from him ; neither shall any man take mine from me . I will think no man the worse man , nor the worse Christian : I will love no man the lesse , for differing in opinion from me . And what measure I meat to others I expect from them again . I am fully assured that God does not , and therefore that men ought not to require any more of any man then this , To believe the Scripture to be Gods word , to endeavour to find the true sense of it , and to live according to it . 57 This is the Religion which I have chosen after a long deliberation , and I am verily perswaded that I have chosen wisely , much more wisely thē if I had guided my selfe according to your Churches authority . For the Scripture being all true , I am secur'd by believing nothing else , that I shall believe no falshood as matter of Faith. And if I mistake the sense of Scripture , and so fall into error , yet am I secure from any danger thereby , if but your grounds be true : because endeavouring to finde the true sense of Scripture , I cannot but hold my error without pertinacy , and be ready to forsake it when a more true and a more probable sense shall appear unto mee . And then all necessary truth being as I have prov'd , plainly set down in Scripture , I am certain by believing Scripture , to believe all necessary Truth : And he that does so , if his life be answerable to his faith , how is it possible he should faile of Salvation ? 58 Besides , whatsoever may be pretended to gain to your Church the credit of a Guide , all that & much more may be said for the Scripture . Hath your Church been ancient ? The Scripture is more ancient . Is your Church a meanes to keep men at vnity ? So is the Scripture to keep those that believe it and wil obey it , in unity of belief , in matters necessary or very profitable , and in unity of Charity in points unnecessary . Is your Church universall for time or place ? Certainly the Scripture is more universall . For all the Christians in the world ( those I mean that in truth deserve this name , ) doe now , and alwaies have believed the Scripture to be the word of God : whereas only you say that you only are the Church of God , & all Christians besides you deny it . 59 Thirdly , following the Scripture , I follow that whereby you prove your Churches infallibility , ( whereof were it not for Scripture what pretence could you have , or what notion could we have ? ) and by so doing tacitely confesse , that your selves are surer of the truth of the Scripture then of your Churches authority . For we must be surer of the proofe then of the thing proved , otherwise it is no proofe . 60 Fourthly , following the Scripture , I follow that which must be true if your Church be true : for your Church gives attestation to it . Whereas if I follow your Church , I must follow that which , though Scripture be true , may be false ; nay which if Scripture be true must be false , because the Scripture testifies against it . 61 Fiftly , to follow the Scripture I have Gods expresse warrant and command , and no colour of any prohibition : But to believe your Church infallible , I have no cōmand at all , much lesse an expresse cōmand . Nay I have reason to fear that I am prohibited to doe so in these words : call no man Master on earth : They fell by infidelity , Thou standest by faith , Bee not high minded but feare : The spirit of truth The world cannot receive . 62 Following your Church I must hold many things not only above reason but against it , if any thing be against it : whereas following the Scripture I shall believe many mysteries but no impossibilities ; many things above reason , but nothing against it ; many things which had they not been reveal'd , reason could never have discover'd , but nothing which by true reason may be confuted : many things which reason cannot comprehend how they can be , but nothing which reason can comprehend that it cannot be . Nay I shall believe nothing which reason will not convince that I ought to believe it : For reason will convince any man , unlesse he be of a perverse mind , that the Scripture is the word of God : And then no reason can be greater then this , God sayes so therefore it is true . 63 Following your Church I must hold many things which to any mans judgment that will give himself the liberty of judgment , will seem much more plainly contradicted by Scripture , then the infallibility of your Church appeares to be confirm'd by it ; and consequently must be so foolish as to believe your Church exempted from error upon lesse evidence , rather then subject to the common condition of mankind upon greater evidence . Now if I take the Scripture only for my Guide , I shall not need to doe any thing so unreasonable . 64 If I will follow your Church I must believe impossibilities , and that with an absolute certainty , upon motives which are confess'd to be but only Prudentiall and probable : That is , with a weak foundation I must firmly support a heavy , a monstrous heavy building : Now following the Scripture I shall have no necessity to undergoe any such difficulties . 65 Following your Church I must be servant of Christ and a Subject of the King , but only - Ad placitum Papae . I must bee prepar'd in mind to renounce my allegiance to the King , when the Pope shall declare him an Heretique and command me not to obey him : And I must be prepar'd in mind to esteem Vertue Vice , and Vice Vertue if the Pope shall so determine . Indeed you say it is impossible he should doe the latter ; but that you know is a great question , neither is it fit my obedience to God and the King should depend upon a questionable foundation . And howsoever , you must grant that if by an impossible supposition the Popes commands should be contrary to the law of Christ , that they of your Religion must resolve to obey rather the commands of the Pope then the law of Christ. Whereas if I follow the Scripture , I may , nay I must obey my Soveraign in lawfull things , though an Heretique , though a Tyrant , and though , I doe not say the Pope , but the Apostles themselves , nay an Angell from heaven should teach any thing against the Gospell of Christ , I may , nay I must denounce Anathem● to him . 66 Following the Scripture I shall believe a Religion , which being contrary to flesh and blood , without any assistance from worldly power , wit or policy ; nay against all the power and policy of the world prevail'd and enlarg'd it self in a very short time all the world over . Whereas it is too too apparent , that your Church hath got and still maintaines her authority over mens consciences , by counterfeiting false miracles , forging falle stories , by obtruding on the world suppositious writings , by corrupting the monuments of former times , and defacing out of them all which any way makes against you , by warres , by persecutions , by Massacres , by Treasons , by Rebellions ; in short , by all manner of carnall meanes whether violent or fraudulent . 67 Following the Scripture I shall believe a Religion , the first Preachers and Professors whereof , it is most certain they could have no worldly ends upon the world , that they could not project to themselves by it any of the profits or honours or pleasures of this world , but rather were to expect the contrary , even all the miseries which the world could lay upon them . On the other side , the Head of your Church , the pretended Successor of the Apostles , and Guide of faith , it is even palpable , that he makes your Religion the instrument of his ambition , & by it seekes to entitle himselfe directly or indirectly to the Monarchy of the world . And besides , it is evident to any man that has but halfe an eye , that most of those Doctrines which you adde to the Scripture doe make one way or other , for the honour or temporall profit of the Teachers of them . 68 Following the Scripture only , I shall embrace a Religion of admirable simplicity , consisting in a manner wholly in the worship of God in spirit and truth . Whereas your Church and Doctrine is even loaded with an infinity of weak , childish , ridiculous , unsavoury superstitions and ceremonies , and full of that righteousnesse for which Christ shall judge the world . 69 Following the Scripture , I shall believe that which Vniversall , never-failing Tradition assures me , that it was by the admirable supernaturall worke of God confirm'd to be the word of God : whereas never , any miracle was wrought , never so much as a lame horse cur'd in confirmation of your Churches authority and infallibility . And if any strange things have been done , which may seeme to give attestation to some parts of your doctrine , yet this proves nothing but the truth of the Scripture , which foretold that ( Gods providence permitting it , and the wickednesse of the world deserving it ) strange signes and wonders should be wrought to confirme false doctrine , that they which love not the truth , may be given over to strange delusions . Neither does it seeme to me any strange thing , that God should permit some true wonders to be done to delude them who have forged so many to deceive the world . 70 If I follow the Scripture , I must not promise my selfe Salvation without effectuall dereliction and mortification of all vices , and the effectuall practice of all Christian vertues : But your Church opens an easier and a broader way to Heaven , and though I continue all my life long in a course of sinne , and without the practice of any vertue , yet gives me assurance that I may be let in to heaven at a posterne gate , even by any act of Attrition at the houre of death , if it be joyn'd with confession , or by an act of Contrition without confession . 71 Admirable are the Precepts of piety and humility , of innocence and patience , of liberality , frugality , temperance , sobriety , justice , meeknesse , fortitude , constancy and gravity , contempt of the world , love of God and the love of man kind ; In a word , of all vertues , and against all vice , which the Scriptures impose upon us , to be obeyed under pain of damnation : The summe whereof is in manner compriz'd in our Saviours Sermon upon the Mount , recorded in the 5. 6. and 7. of S. Matthew , which if they were generally obeyed , could not but make the world generally happy , and the goodnesse of them alone were sufficient to make any wise and good man believe that this Religion rather then any other , came from God the Fountain of all goodnesse . And that they may be generally obeyed , our Saviour hath ratified them all in the close of his Sermon , with these universall Sanctions , Not every one that sayeth Lord Lord , shall enter into the Kingdome , but he that doth the will of my Father which is in Heaven : and again , whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doth them not , shall be likned unto a foolish man which built his house upon the sand , and the ruine descended , and the stood came , and the winds blew , and it fell , and great was the fall thereof . Now your Church , notwithstanding all this , enervates and in a manner dissolves and abrogates many of these precepts , teaching men that they are not lawes for all Christians , but Counsells of perfection and matters of Supererrogation : that a man shall doe well if he doe observe them , but he shall not sinne if he observe them not ; That they are for them who ayme at high places in heaven , who aspire with the two sonnes of Zebede , to the right hand or to the left hand of Christ : But if a man will be content barely to goe to heaven , and to be a doore keeper in the house of God , especially if he will be content to tast of Purgatory in the way , he may obtaine it at any easier purchase . Therefore the Religion of your Church is not so holy nor so good as the doctrine of Christ delivered in Scripture , and therefore not so likely to come from the Fountaine of holinesse & goodnesse . 72 Lastly , if I follow your Church for my Guide , I shall doe all one , as if I should follow a Company of blind men in a judgement of colours , or in the choice of a way . For every unconsidering man is blind in that which he does not consider . Now what is your Church but a Company of unconsidering men , who comfort themselves because they are a great company together , but all of them , either out of idlenesse refuse the trouble of a severe tryall of their Religion , ( as if heaven were not worth it , ) or out of superstition fear the event of such a tryall , that they may be scrupled and staggered and disquieted by it ; and therefore , for the most part doe it not at all . Or if they doe it , they doe it negligently and hypocritically , and perfunctorily , rather for the satisfaction of others then themselves : but certainly without indifference , without liberty of judgement , without a resolution to doubt of it , if upon examination the grounds of it prove uncertain , or to leave it , if they prove apparently false . My own experience assures me , that in this imputation I doe you no injury : but it is very apparent to all men from your ranking , doubting of any part of your Doctrine , among mortall sinnes . For from hence it followes , that seeing every man must resolve that he will never commit mortall sinne , that he must never examine the grounds of it at all , for fear he should be mov'd to doubt : or if he doe , he must resolve that no motives , be they never so strong shall move him to doubt , but that with his will and resolution he will uphold himselfe in a firme belief of your Religon , though his reason and his understanding faile him . And seeing this is the condition of all those whom you esteem good Catholiques , who can deny , but you are a Company of men unwilling and afraid to understand , least you should doe good ! That have eyes to see and will not see , that have have not the love of truth ( which is only to be known by an indifferent tryall , ) & therefore deserve to be given over to strong delusions ; men that love darknesse more then light : in a word , that you are the blind leading the blind , and what prudence there can be , in following such Guides , our Saviour hath taught us in saying , If the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch . 73 There remaines unspoken to in this Section , some places out of S. Austin , and some sayings of Luther , wherein he confesses that in the Papacy are many good things . But the former I have already considered , and return'd the argument grounded on them . As for Luthers speeches , I told you , not long since , that we follow no privat men , and regard not much what he saies either against the Church of Rome , or for it , but what he proves . He was a man of a vehement Spirit , and very often what he took in hand , he did not doe it but over doe it . He that will justify all his speeches , especially such as he wrote in heat of opposition , I believe will have work enough . Yet in these sentences , though he overreach in the particulars , yet what he saies in generall we confesse true , and confesse with him that in the Papacy are many good things , which have come from them to us , but withall we say there are many bad , neither doe wee think our selves bound in prudence either to reject the good with the bad , or to retain the bad with the good , but rather conceive it a high point of wisdome , to separate between the pretious and the vile , to sever the good from the bad , and to put the good in vessels to be kept , and to cast the bad away ; to try all things , and to hold that which is good . 74 Ad § . 32. Your next and last argument against the faith of Protestants is , because wanting Certainty and Prudence , it must also want the fourth condition , Supernaturality . For that being a humane perswasion , it is not in the essence of it supernaturall : and being imprudent and rash , it cannot proceed from Divine motion , and so is not supernaturall in respect of the cause from which it proceedeth . Ans. This litle discourse stands wholly upon what went before , and therefore must fall together with it . I have proved the Faith of Protestants as certain , and as prudent as the faith of Papists ; and therefore if these be certain grounds of supernaturality , our faith may have it as well as yours . I would here furthermore be inform'd how you can assure us that your faith is not your perswasion or opinion ( for you make them all one , ) that your Churches doctrine is true ? Or if you grant it your perswasion , why is it not the perswasion of men , and in respect of the subject of it , an humane perswasion ? I desire also to know , what sense there is in pretending that your perswasion is , not in regard of the object only and cause of it , but in nature or essence of it supernaturall ? Lastly , whereas you say , that being imprudent it cannot come from divine motion : certainly by this reason all they that believe your own Religion , and cannot give a wise and sufficient reason for it , ( as millions amongst you cannot ) must be condemn'd to have no supernaturall faith : or if not , then without question nothing can hinder , but that the imprudent faith of Protestants may proceed from divine motion , as well as the imprudent faith of Papists . 75 And thus having weighed your whole discourse , and found it altogether lighter then vanity , why should I not invert your conclusion ; and say , Seeing you have not proved that whosoever erres against any one point of Faith looseth all divine Faith : nor that any error whatsoever concerning that which by the Parties litigant may be esteem'd a matter of faith is a grievous sinne , it followes not at all , that when two men hold different doctrines concerning Religion , that but one can be saved ? Not that I deny , but that the sentence of S. Chrysost. with which you conclude this Chapt. may in a good sense be true : for oftimes by the faith is meant only that Doctrine which is necessary to salvation , and to say that salvation may be had without any the least thing which is necessary to salvation , implyes a repugnance and destroies it selfe . Besides , not to believe all necessary points , and to believe none at all , is for the purpose of salvation all one ; and therefore he that does so , may justly be said to destroy the Gospell of Christ , seeing he makes it uneffectuall to the end for which it was intended , the Salvation of mens soules . But why you should conceive that all differences about Religon , are concerning matters of faith , in this high notion of the word , for that I conceive no reason . CHAP. VII . In regard of the Precept of Charity towards ones self , Protestants are in state of Sinne , as long as they remain separated from the Roman Church . THAT , due Order is to be observed in the Theologicall Vertue of Charity , whereby we are directed to preferre some Objects before others , is a truth taught by all Divines , and declared in these words of holy Scripture : He hath ordered a Charity in me . The reason whereof is : because the infinite Goodnesse of God , which is the formall Obiect , or Motive of Charity , and for which all other things are loved , is differently participated by different Objects ; and therefore the love we beare to them for Gods sake , must accordingly be unequall . In the vertue of Faith , the case is farre otherwise ; because all the Objects , or points which we believe , doe equally participate the divine Testimony or Revelation , for which we believe alike all things propounded for such . For it is as impossible for God , to speake an untruth in a small , as in a great matter . And this is the ground for which we have so often affirmed , that any least errour against Faith , is injurious to God , and destructive of Salvation . 2 This order in Charity may be considered ; Towards God ; Our owne soule ; The soule of our Neighbour ; Our owne life , or Goods ; and the life or goods of our Neighbour . God is to be beloved above all things , both objectivè ( as the Divines speake ) that is , we must wish or desire to God , a Good more great , perfect , and noble then to any ; or all other things : namely , all that indeed He is , a Nature Infinite , Independent , Immense &c. and also appretiative , that is , wee must sooner loose what good soever , then leave , and abandon Him. In the other Objects of Charity , of which I spake , this order is to be kept . We may , but are not bound , to preferre the life and goods of our Neigbour before our owne : we are bound to pre●erre the soule of our Neighbour before our own temporall goods or life , if he happen to be in extreme spirituall necessity , and that we by our assistance can succour him , according to the saying of S. Iohn : In this we have knowne b the Charity of God , because he hath yielded his life for us : and we ought to yield our life for our Brethren . And S. Augustine likewise saith : A Christian will not doubt c to loose his owne temporall life , for the eternall life of his Neighbour . Lastly we are to preferre the spirituall good of our own soule , before both the spirituall and temporall good of our Neighbour , because as Charity doth of its own Nature , chiefly encline the person in whom it resides , to love God , and to be united with him : so of it selfe it enclines him to procure those things whereby the said Vnion with God is effected , rather to himselfe then to others . And from hence it followes , that in things necessary to salvation , no man ought in any case , or in any respect whatsoever , to preferre the spirituall good , either of any particular person , or of the whole world before his own soule ; according to those words of our Blessed Saviour : What doth it ; d availe a man , if he gaine the whole world , and sustaine the damage of his own soule ? And therefore ( to come to our present purpose ) it is directly against the Order of Charity , or against Charity as it hath a reference to our selves , which Divines call Charitas propria , to adventure either the omitting of any meanes necessary to salvation , or the committing of any thing repugnant to it , for whatsoever respect , and consequently , if by living out of the Roman Church we put our selves in hazard , either to want some thing necessarily required to salvation , or else to performe some act against it , wee commit a most grievous sinne against the vertue of Charity , as it respect our selves , and so cannot hope for salvation without repentance . 3 Now , of things necessary to salvation , there are two sorts , according to the doctrine of all Divines . Some things ( say they ) are necessary to salvation , necessitate praecepti , necessary only because they are commanded ; For , If thou wilt e enter into life , keepe the Commandements . In which kind of things , as probable ignorance of the Law , or of the commandement doth excuse the party from all faulty breach thereof ; so likewise doth it not exclude salvation in case of ignorance . Some other things are said to be necessary to salvation necessitate medij , finis , or salutis ; because they are Meanes appointed by God to attaine our End of eternall salvation , in so strict a manner , that it were presumption to hope for Salvation without them . And as the former meanes are said to be necessary , because they are commanded , so the latter are commonly said to be commanded : because they are necessary , that is : Although there were no other speciall precept concerning them ; yet supposing they bee once appointed as meanes absolutely necessary to salvation , there cannot but arise an obligation of procuring to have them , in vertue of that universall precept of Charity , which obligeth every man to procure the salvation of his own soule . In this sort divine infallible Faith is necessary to salvation ; as likewise repentance of every deadly sinne , and in the doctrine of Catholiques , Baptisme in re , that is , in act , to Children , and for those who are come to the use of reason , in voto , or harty desire , when they cannot have it in act . And as Baptisme is necessary for remission of Originall and Actuall sinne committed before it : so the Sacrament of Confession , or Pennance is necessary in re , or in voto , in act , or desire , for the remission of mortall sinnes , committed after Baptisme . The Minister of which Sacrament of Pennance being necessarily a true Priest , true Ordination is necessary in the Church of God for remission of sinnes by this sacrament , as also for other ends not belonging to our present purpose . From hence it riseth , that no ignorance or impossibility can supply the want of those means which are absolutely necessary to salvation . As if , for example , a sinner depart this world without repenting himselfe of all deadly sinnes , although he dye suddenly , or unexpectedly fall out of his wits , and so commit no new sinne by omission of repentance ; yet he shall be eternally punished for his former sinnes committed , and never repented . If an Infant dye without Baptisme , he cannot be saved , not by reason of any actuall sinne committed by him in omitting Baptisme , but for Originall sinne , not forgiven by the meanes which God hath ordained to that purpose . Which doctrine , all , or must Protestants will ( for ought I know ) grant to be trve , in the Children of Infidels , yea not only Lutherans , but also some other Protestants , as M. Bilson late of Winchester f & others hold it to be true , even in the Children of the faithfull . And if Protestants in generall disagree fom Catholiques in this point , it cannot be denyed but that our disagreement is in a point very fundamentall . And the like I say of the Sacrament of Pennance , which they deny to be necessary to salvation , either in act , or in desire ; which error is likewise fundamentall , because it concernes ( as I said ) a thing necessary to salvation : And for the same reason , if their Priesthood and Ordination be doubtfull , as certainly it is , they are in danger to want a meanes without which they cannot be saved . Neither ought this rigour to seeme strange , or unjust : For Almighty God having of his own Goodnesse , without our merit , first ordained Man to a supernaturall end of eternall felicity ; and then ; after our fall in Adam vouchsafed to reduce us to the attaining of that End , if his blessed Will be pleased to limit the attaining of that End , to some meanes which in his infinite Wisdome he thinks most fit ; who can say , why dost thou so ? Or who can hope for that End , without such meanes ? Blessed be his divine Majesty , for vouchsafing to ordaine us , base creatures , to so sublime an End , by any meanes at all ! 4 Out of the foresaid difference followeth another , that ( generally speaking ) in things necessary only , because they are commanded , it is sufficient for avoiding sinne , that we proceed prudently , and by the conduct of some probable opinion , maturely weighed and approved by men of vertue , learning and wisdome , Neither are we alwaies obliged to follow the most strict , and severe , or secure part , as long as the doctrine which wee embrace , proceeds upon such reasons , as may warrant it to be truly probable , and prudent , though the contrary part want not also probable grounds . For in humane affaires , and discourse , evidence and certainty cannot be alwaies expected . But when wee treat not precisely of avoiding sinne , but moreover of procuring some thing without which I cannot bee saved ; I am obliged by the Law , and Order of Charity to procure as great certainty as morrally I am able ; and am not to follow euery probable opinion or dictamen , but tutiorem partem , the safer part , because if my probability prove false , I shall not probably , but certainly come short of Salvation . Nay in such case , I shall incurre a new sinne against the Vertue of Charity towards my selfe , which obligeth every one not to expose his soule to the hazard of eternall perdition , when it is in his power , with the assistance of Gods grace , to make the matter sure . From this very ground it is , that although some Divines be of opinion , that it is not a sinne to use some Ma●ter , or Form of Sacraments , only probable , if we respect precisely the reverence or respect which is due to Sacraments , as they belong to the Morall i●fused Vertue of Religion ; yet when they are such Sacraments , as the invalidity thereof may endanger the salvation of soules , all doe with one consent agree , that it is a grievous offence to use a doubtfull , or onely probable Matter or Forme , when it is in our power to procure certainty . If therefore it may appeare , that though it were not certaine that Protestancy unrepented destroyes Salvation ( as we have proved to be very certaine ) yet at least that is probable , and with all , that there is a way more safe ; it will follow out of the grounds already said , that they are obliged by the law of Charity to imb●ace that safe way . 5 Now , that Protestants have reason at least to doubt in what case they stand , is deduced from what we have said , and proved about the universall infallibility of the Church , and of her being Iudge of Controversies , to whom all Christians ought to submit their Iudgement ( as even some Protestants g●ant , ) and whom to oppose in any one of her definitions ; is a grievous sinne : As also from what we have said of the Vnity , Vniversality , and Visibility of the Church , and of Succession of Persons , and Doctrine ; Of the Conditions of Divine Faith , Certainty , Obscurity , Prudence , and Supernaturality , which are wanting in the faith of Protestants ; Of the frivolous distinction of points fundamentall & not fundamentall , ( the confutation whereof proveth that Heretiques disagreeing among themselves in any least point , cannot have the same faith , nor be of the same Church : ) Of Schisme ; of Heresy ; of the Persons who first revolted from Rome , and of their Motives ; of the Nature of Faith , which is destroyed by any least errour , & it is Certaine that some of thē must be in error & want the substance of true faith ; & since all pretend the like certainty , it is cleer that none of them have any certainty at all , but that they want true faith , which is a meanes most absolutely necessary to Salvation . Moreover , as I said heretofore , since it is granted that every Error in fundamentall points is damnable , and that they cannot tell in particular , what points be fundamentall ; it followes that none of them knowes whether he , or his Brethren doe not erre damnably , it being certain that amongst so many disagreeing persons some must erre . Vpon the same ground of not being able to assigne what points be fundamentall , I say , they cannot be sure whether the difference among them be fundamentall or no , and consequently whether they agree in the substance of faith and hope of Salvation . I omit to adde that you want the Sacrament of Pennance , instituted for remission of sinnes , or at least you must confesse that you hold it not necessary ; and yet your own Brethren , for example , the Century Writers doe g acknowledg that in times of Cyprian , and Tertullian , Private Confession even of Thoughts was used ; and that , it was then commanded , and thought necessary . The like , I say , concerning your Ordination , which at least is very doubtfull , and consequently all that depends thereon . 6 On the other side , that the Roman Church is the the safer way to Heaven ( not to repeat what hath been already said upon divers occasions ) I will again put you in mind , that unlesse the Roman Church was the true Church there was no visible true Church upon earth . A thing so manifest , that Protestants themselves confesse that more then one thousand years the Roman Church possessed the whole world , as we have shewed heretofore , out of their own h words : from whence it follows , that unlesse Ours be the true Church , you cannot pretend to any perpetuall visible Church of your Own ; but Ours doth not depend on yours , before which it was . And here I wish you to consider with feate and trembling , how all Roman Catholiques , not one excepted ; that is , those very men whom you must hold not to erre damnably in their belief , unlesse you will destroy your own Church , and salvation , doe with unanimous consent believe , and professe that Protestancy unrepented destroyes Salvation ; and then tell me , as you will answer at the last day , Whether it be not more safe , to live and die in that Church , which even your selves are forced to acknowledge not to be cut off from hope of Salvation , ( which are your own words ) then ●●live in a Church , which the said confessedly true Church doth firmly believe , and constantly professe not to be capable of Salvation . And therefore I conclude that by the most strict obligation of Charity towards your own soule , you are bound to place it in safety , by returning to that Church , from which your Progenitors Schismatically departed ; least too late you find that saying of the holy Ghost verified in your selves : He that loves i the danger , shall perish therein . 7 Against this last argument of the greater security of the Roman Church drawn from your own confession , you bring an Objection ; which in the end will be found to make for us , against your selfe . It is taken from the words of the Don●tists , speaking to Catholiques in this manner : Your selves confesse k our Baptisme , Sacraments , and Faith ( here you put an Explication or your own , and say , for the most part , as if any small error in faith did not destroy all Faith ) to be good , and available . We deny yours to be so , and say there is no Church , no salvation amongst you ; Therefore it is safest for all to joyn with us . 8 By your leave our Argument is not ( as you say ) for simple people alone , but for all them who have care to save their soules . Neither is it grounded upon your Charitable Iudgement ( as you l speak ) but upon an inevitable necessity for you , either to grant salvation to our Church , or to entaile certaine damnation upon your owne : because yours can have no being till Luther , unlesse ours be supposed to have been the true Church of Christ. And since you term this Argument a charme , take heed you be none of those , who according to the Prophet David , doe not heare the voice of him m who charmeth wisely . But to come to the purpose : Catholiques never granted that the Donatists had a true Church , or might be saved : And therefore you having cited out of S. Augustine , the words of the Catholiques , that the Donatists had true Baptisme , when you come to the contrary words of the Donatists , you adde , No Church , No Salvation ; making the Argument to have quinque terminos ; without which Addition you did see it made nothing against us : For , as I said , the Catholiques never yielded , that among the Donatists there was a true Church , or hope of salvation . And your selfe , a few leaves after , acknowledge that the Donatists maintained an error , which was in the Matter and Nature of it properly haereticall , against that Article of the Creed , wherein we professe to believe the holy n Catholique Church : and consequently , you cannot allow salvation to them , as you doe , and must doe to us . And therefore the Donatists could not make the like argument against Catholiques , as Catholiques make against you , who grant us Salvation , which we deny to you . But at least ( you will say ) this Argument for the Certainty of their Baptisme , was like to Ours touching the Security and Certainty of our salvation ; and therefore that Catholiques should have esteemed the Baptisme of the Donatists more certain then their own , and so have allowed Rebaptization of such as were baptized by Heretiques , or sinners , as the Donatists esteemed all Catholiques to be . I answer , no. Because it being a matter of faith , that Baptisme administred by Heretiques , observing due Matter , form &c. is valide ; to rebaptize any so baptized , had been both a sacriledg in reiterating a Sacramēt not reiterable , and a profession also of a damnable Heresy , and therefore had not been more safe , but certainly damnable . But you confesse that in the doctrine or practice of the Roman Church , there is no belief , or profession of any damnable error , which if there were , even your Church should certainly be no Church . To believe therefore and professe as we doe , cannot exclude Salvation , as Rebaptization must have done . But if the Donatists could have affirmed with truth , that in the opinion both of Catholiques and themselves , their Baptisme was good , yea and good in such sort as that unlesse theirs was good , that of the Catholiques could not be such ; but theirs might be good , though that of the Catholiques were not : and further that it was no damnable error to believe , that Baptisme administred by the Catholiques was not good , nor that it was any Sacriledg to reiterate the same Baptisme of Catholiques : If , I say , they could have truly affirmed these things , they had said somewhat , which at least had seemed to the purpose . But these things they could not say with any colour of truth , and therefore their argument was fond , and impious . But we with truth say to Protestants : You cannot but confesse that our doctrine containes no damnable error ; and that our Church is so certainly a true Church , that unlesse ours be true you cannot pretend any ; Yea you grant , that you should be guilty of Schisme , if you did cut off our Church from the Body of Christ , and the hope of salvation : But we neither doe , nor can grant that yours is a true Church , or that within it there is hope of salvation : Therefore it is safest for you to joyn with us , And now against whom hath your Objection greatest force ? 9 But I wonder not a little , and so I think will ever body else , what the reason may be , that you doe not so much as goe about to answer the argument of the Donatists , which you say is all one with Ours , but referre us to S. Augustine there to read it ; as if every one carried with him a Library , or were able to examine the places in S. Augustine : and yet you might be sure your Reader would be greedy to see some solid answer to an argument so often urged by us , and which indeed , unless you can confute it , ought alone to move every one who hath care of his soule , to take the safest way , by incorporating himself in our Church . But we may easily imagine the true reason of your silence : For the answer which S. Augustine gives to the Donatists , is directly against your self , and the same which I have given . Namely , that Catholiques o approve the Baptisme of Donatists , but abhorre their heresy of Rebaptization . And that as gold is good ( which is the similitude used by p S. Augustine ) yet not to be sought in company of theeves ; so though Baptisme be good , yet it must not be sought for in the Conventicle of Donatists . But you free us from damnable heresy , and yield us salvation , which I hope is to be imbraced in whatsoever Company it is found ; or rather that Company is to be imbraced before all other , in which all sides agree , that salvation may be found . We therefore must inferre , that it is safest for you to seeke salvation among us . You had good reason to conceal S. Augustins answer to the Donatists . 10 You frame another argument in our behalf , and make us speake thus : If Protestants believe the q Religion of Catholiques to be a safe way to Heaven , why doe they not follow it ? which wise argument of your own , you answer at large , and confirm your answer by this instance : The Iesuits and Dominicans hold different Opinions touching Predetermination , and the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin : Yet so , that the Iesuits hold the Dominicans way safe , that is , his error not damnable , and the Dominicans hold the same of the Iesuits ; Yet neither of them with good Consequence can presse the other to believe his opinion , because by his own Confession it is no damnable error . 11 But what Catholique maketh such a wise demaund as you put into our mouths ? If our Religion be a safe way to heaven , that is , not damnable ; why doe you not follow it ? As if every thing that is good , must be of necessity imbraced by every body . But what think you of the Argument framed thus ? Our Religion is safe even by your Confession , therefore you ought to grant that all may imbrace it . And yet further , thus : Among different Religions and contrary waies to heaven , one only can be safe : But ours , by your own Confession , is safe , whereas we hold that in yours there is no hope of salvation : Therefore you may and ought to imbrace ours . This is our Argument . And if the Dominicans and Iesuits did say one to another as we say to you ; then one of them might with good consequence press the other to believe his opinion . You have still the hard for tune to be beaten with your own weapon . 12 It remaineth then , that both in regard of Faith , and Charity , Protestants are obliged to unite themselves with the Church of Rome . And I may adde also , in regard of the Theologicall V●●tue of Hope , without which none can hope to be saved , and which you want , either by ex●●sse of Confidence , or defect by Despair , not unlike to your Faith , which I shewed to be either ●●●cient in Certainty , or excessive in Evidēce ; as likewise according to the rigid Calvinists , it is either so strong , that once had , it can never be lost ; or so more then weak , and so much nothing ; that it can never be gotten . For the trve Theologicall Hope of Christians , is a Hope which keeps a mean between Presumption , and Desperation ; which moves us to work our salvation with feare , and trembling ; which conducts us to make sure our salvation by good works , as holy Scripture adviseth . But contrarily , Protestants doe either exclude Hope by Despaire , with the Doctrine that our Saviour died not for all , and that such want grace sufficient to salvation ; or else by vaine Presumption grounded upon a fantasticall persuasion , that they are Predestinate ; which Faith must exclude all feare , and trembling , Neither can they make their Calling certain by good works , who doe certainly beleeve that before any good works they are justified , and justified even by Faith alone , and that by Faith whereby they certainly believe that they are justified . Which points some Protestants doe expresly affirme to be the soule of the Church , the principall Origen of salvation , Of all other points of Doctrine the chiefest and weightiest ; as already I have noted Chap. 3. n. 19. And if some Protestants doe now relent from the rigour of the aforesaid doctrine , we must affirme , that at least some of them want the Theologicall Vertue of Hope ; yea that none of them can have trve Hope , while they hope to be saved in the Communion of those , who defend such doctrines , as doe directly overthrow all true Christian Hope . And for as much as concernes Faith , we must also infer , that they want Vnity therein ( and consequently have none at all ) by their disagreement about the soule of the Church , the principall Origen of salvation , of all other points of Doctrine the chiefest and weightiest . And if you want trve Faith , you must by consequence want Hope , or if you hold that this point is not to be so indivisible on either side , but that it hath latitude sufficient to imbrace all parties , without prejudice to their salvation ; notwithstanding that your Brethren hold it to be the soule of the Church &c. I must repeat what I have said heretofore , that , even by this Example , it is cleer , you cannot agree what points be fundamentall . And so ( to whatsoever answer you fly ) I presse you in the same manner , and say , that haue no Certainty whether you agree in fundamentall points , or Vnity and substance of Faith , which cannot stand with difference in fundamentalls . And so upon the whole matter , I leave it to be considered , whether , Want of Charity can be iustly charged on us , because we affirme , that they cannot ( without repentance ) be saved , who want of all other the most necessary meanes to salvation , which are , the three Theologicall Vertues , FAITH , HOPE , and CHARITY . 13 And now I end this first part , having as I conceive , complyed with my first designe , ( in that measure , which Time , Commodity , scarcity of Books , and my own small Abilities could afford ) which was to shew , that Amongst men of different Religions , one side only can be saved . For since there must be some infallible Meanes to decide all Controversies concerning Religion , and to propound truth revealed by Almighty God ; and this Meanes can be no other , but the Visible Church of Christ , which at the time of Luthers appearance was only the Church of Rome . and such as agreed with her : We must conclude , that whosoever opposeth himself to her definitions , or forsaketh her Communion , doth resist God himself , whose Spouse she is , and whose divine truth she propounds ; and therefore becoms guilty of Schisme , and Heresie , which since Luther , his Associates , and Protestants have done , and still continue to doe ; it is not Want of Charity , but abundance of evident cause that forceth us to declare this necessary Truth , PROTESTANCIE VNREPENTED DESTROIES SALVATION . THE ANSVVER TO THE SEAVENTH CHAPTER . That Protestants are not bound by the Charity which they owe to themselves , to re-unite themselves to the Roman Church . THE first foure Paragraphs of this Chapter are wholly spent in an un-necessary introduction unto a truth , which I presume , never was , nor will be by any man in his right wits , either denied or question'd ; and that is , That every man in wisdome and charity to himselfe , is to take the safest way to his eternall Salvation . 2 The fift and sixt are nothing in a manner , but references to discourses already answered by me , and confuted in their proper places . 3 The seaventh , eight , ninth , tenth , and eleventh ; have no other foundation but this false pretence , That we confesse the Roman Church free from damnable error . 4 In the twelfth there is something that has some probability to perswade some Protestants to forsake some of their opinions , or others to leave their communion ; but to prove Protestants in state of sinne while they remain separate from the Roman Church , there is not one word or syllable : and besides , whatsoever argument there is in it for any purpose , it may be as forcibly return'd upon Papists , as it is urg'd against Protestants ; in as much as all Papists , either hold the doctrine of Predetermination , and absolute Election , or communicate with those that doe hold it . Now from this doctrine , what is more prone and obvious , then for every naturall man ( without Gods especiall prevēting grace ) to make this practicall collection , Either I am elected or not elected ; If I be , no impiety possible can ever damne me : If not , no possible industry can ever save me ? Now whether this disiunctive perswasion be not as likely ( as any doctrine of any Protestants , ) to extinguish Christian hope , and filiall feare , and to lead some men to despaire , others to presumption , all to a wretchlesse and impious life , I desire you ingenuously to informe me ! and if you deny it , assure your selfe you shall be contradicted and confuted by men of your own Religion and your own Society , and taught at length this charitable Doctrine , that though mens opinions may be charg'd with the absurd consequences which naturally flow from them , yet the men themselves are not ; I meane , if they perceive not the consequence of these absurdities , nor doe not own and acknowledge , but disclaim and detest them . And this is all the answer which I should make to this discourse , if I should deale rigidly and strictly with you . Yet that you may not think your selfe contemn'd , nor have occasion to pretend , that your arguments are evaded , I will entreat leave of my Reader to bring to the test every particle of it , and to censure what deserves a censure , and to answer what may any way seeme to require an answer : and then I doubt not , but what I have affirm'd in generall will appear in particular . Ad § . 1. To the First then I say . 1. It was needlesse to prove , that due Order is to be observed in any thing ; much more in Charity , which being one of the best things , may be spoil'd by being disordered ! Yet if it stood in need of proofe , I fear this place of the Canticles , He hath ordered Charity in me , would be no enforcing demonstration of it . 2. The reason alleaged by you why we ought to love one object more then another , because one thing participates the Divine Goodnesse more than another , is phantasticall , and repugnant to what you say presently after . For by this rule no man should love himselfe more then all the world ; unlesse he were first vainely perswaded that he doth more participate the Divine Goodnesse then all the world . But the true reason why one thing ought to be lov'd more then another is , because one thing is better then another , or because it is better to us , or because God commands us to doe so , or because God himselfe does so , and we are to conforme our affections to the will of God. 3. It is not true that all objects which we believe , doe equally participate the Divine Testimony or Revelation : For some are testified more evidently , and some more obscurely ; and therefore whatsoever you have built upon this ground , must of necessity fall together with it . And thus much for the first number . 6 Ad § . 2. In the Second many passages deserve a censure . For 1. it is not true that we are to wish or desire to God a nature infinite , independent , immense : For it is impossible I should desire to any person that which he hath already , if I know that he hath it ; nor the perpetuity of it , if I know it impossible but he must have it for perpetuity . And therefore , rejoycing only and not welwishing is here the proper work of love . 2. Whereas you say , That in things necessary to salvation , no man ought in any case or in any respect whatsoever , to preferre the spirituall good of the whole world before his own soule : In saying this you seeme to me to condemne one of the greatest acts of Charity , of one of the greatest Saints that ever was , I mean S. Paul , who for his brethren desir'd to be an Anathema from Christ. And as for the Text alleaged by you in confirmation of your saying , what doth it availe a man if he gaine the whole world , and sustaine the damage of his owne soule ! it is nothing to the purpose : For without all question it is not profitable for a man to doe so ; but the question is , whether it be not lawfull for a man to forgoe and part with his own particular profit , to procure the universall , spirituall , and eternall benefit of others ? 3. Whereas you say , it is directly against Charity to our selves , to adventure the omitting of any meanes necessary to salvation , this is true : But so is this also , that it is directly against the same Charity , to adventure the omitting any thing , that may any way helpe or conduce to my salvation , that may make the way to it more secure or lesse dangerous . And therefore if the errors of the Roman Church doe but hinder me in this way , or any way endanger it , I am in Charity to my selfe bound to forsake them , though they be not destructive of it . 4. Whereas you conclude , That if by living out of the Roman Church we put our selves in hazard to want something necessary to Salvation , we commit a grievous sinne against the vertue of Charity as it respects our selves : This consequence may be good in those which are thus perswaded of the Roman Church , and yet live out of it . But the supposition is certainly false . We may live and dye out of the Roman Church , without putting our selves in any such hazard : Nay to live and dye in it is as dangerous as to shoote a gulfe , which though some good ignorant soules may doe and escape , yet it may well be feared that not one in a hundred but miscarries . 7 Ad § . 3. I proceed now to the third Section ; & herein first I observe this acknowledgement of yours , That in things necessary only because commanded , a probable ignorance of the commandement excuses the Party from all fault , and doth not exclude Salvation . From which Doctrine it seemes to me to follow , that seeing obedience to the Roman Church cannot be pretended to be necessary , but only because it is commanded , therefore not only an invincible , but even a probable ignorance of this pretended command , must excuse us from all faulty breach of it , and cannot exclude Salvation . Now seeing this command is not pretended to be expresly delivered , but only to be deduced from the word of God , and that not by the most cleere and evident consequences that may be ; and seeing an infinity of great objections lies against it , which seeme strongly to prove that there is no such command ; with what Charity can you suppose , that our ignorance of this command , is not at the least probable , if not , all things considered , plainly invincible ? Sure I am , for my part , that I have done my true endeavour to finde it true , and am still willing to doe so ; but the more I seeke , the farther I am from finding , and therefore if it be true , certainly my not finding it is very excusable , and you have reason to be very charitable in your censures of me . 2. Whereas you say , That besides these things necessary because commanded , there are other things , which are commanded because necessary : of which number you make Divine infallible faith , Baptisme in Act for Children , and in Desire for those who are come to the use of Reason , and the Sacrament of Confession , for those who have committed mortall sinne : In these words you seeme to me to deliver a strange Paradoxe viz. That Faith , and Baptisme , and Confession are not therefore necessary for us , because God appointed them , but are therefore appointed by God because they were necessary for us , antecedently to his appointment ; which if it were true , I wonder what it was beside God that made them necessary , and made it necessary for God to command them ! Besides , in making faith one of these necessary meanes , you seem to exclude Infants from Salvation : Fo● Faith comes by hearing , and they have not heard . In requiring that this Faith should be divine and infallible , you cast your Credentes into infinite perplexity , who cannot possibly by any sure marke discerne whether their Faith be Divine or humane , or if you have any certain signe , whereby they may discerne , whether they believe your Churches infallibility with Divine or only with humane faith , I pray produce it , for perhaps it may serve us to shew , that our faith is divine as well as yours . Moreover in affirming that Baptisme in act is necessary for Infants , and for men onely in desire , You seeme to me in the latter to destroy the foundation of the former . For if a desire of Baptisme will serve men instead of Baptisme , then those words of our Saviour , Vnlesse a man be borne again of water &c. are not to be understood literally and rigidly of externall Baptisme ; for a desire of Baptisme is not Baptisme , and so your foundation of the Absolute necessity of Baptisme is destroied . And if you may glosse the Text so farre , as that men may be saved by the desire , without Baptisme it selfe , because they cannot have it , why should you not glosse it a little farther , that there may be some hope of the salvation of unbaptized infants : to whom it was more impossible to have a desire of Baptisme , then for the former to have the thing it selfe ? Lastly , for your Sacrament of Confession , we know none such , nor any such absolute necessity of it . They that confesse their sinnes and forsake them shall finde mercy , though they confesse them to God only and not to men . They that confesse them both to God and men , if they doe not effectually and in time forsake them , shall not finde mercy . 3. Whereas you say , that supposing these meanes once appointed as absolutely necessary to salvation , there cannot but arise an obligation of procuring to have them ; you must suppose I hope , that we know them to be so appointed , and that it is in our power to procure them : otherwise though it may be our ill fortune to faile of the end , for want of the meanes , certainly we cannot be obliged to procure them . For the rule of the law is also the dictate of common reason and equity , That no man can be obliged to what is impossible . We can be obliged to nothing but by vertue of some command : now it is impossible that God should command in earnest anything which he knowes to be impossible . For to command in earnest , is to command with an intent to be obeyed ; which is not possible he should doe , when he knowes the thing commanded to be impossible . Lastly , whosoever is obliged to doe any thing , and does it not , commits a fault ; but Infants commit no fault in not procuring to have Baptisme ; therefore no obligation lies upon them to procure it . 4. Whereas you say , that if Protestants dissent from you in the point of the necessity of Baptisme for Infants , it cannot be denied but that our disagreement is in a point fundamentall ; If you mean a point esteemed so by you , this indeed cannot be denied : But if you mean a point that indeed is fundamentall , this may certainly be denied , for I deny it , and say , that it doth not appear to me any way necessary to Salvation to hold the truth , or not to hold an error , touching the condition of these Infants . This is certain , and we must believe that God will not deale unjustly with them , but how in particular he will deale with them concernes not us , and therefore we need not much regard it . 5. Whereas you say the like of your Sacrament of Penance , you only say so , but your proofes are wanting . Lastly , whereas you say , This rigour ought not to seeme strange or uniust in God , but that we are rather to blesse him for ordaining us to Salvation by any meanes : I answer , that it is true , we are not to question the known will of God , of injustice ; yet whether that which you pretend to be Gods will , be so indeed , or only your presumption , this I hope may be question'd lawfully & without presumption ; and if we have occasion we may safely put you in mind of Ezekiel's commination , against all those who say , thus saith the Lord , when they have no certain warrant or authority from him to doe so . 8 Ad § . 4. In the fourth Paragraph you deliver this false & wicked Doctrine , that for the procuring our own salvation we are allwaies bound under pain of mortall sinne to take the safest way , but for avoiding sinne we are not bound to doe so , but may follow the opinion of any probable Doctors , though the contrary may be certainly free from sinne , and theirs be doubtfull . Which doctrine in the former part of it is apparētly false : For though wisdome and Charity to our selves would perswade us alwaies to doe so , yet many times , that way which to our selves and our salvation is more full of hazard , is notwithstanding not only lawfull , but more charitable and more noble . For example , to fly from a persecution and so to avoid the temptation of it , may be the safer way for a mans own salvation ; yet I presume no man ought to condemne him of impiety , who should resolve not to use his liberty in this matter , but for Gods greater glory , the greater honor of truth , & the greater confirmation of his brethren in the faith , choose to stand out the storme and endure the fiery tryall , rather then avoid it ; rather to put his own soule to the hazard of a temptation , in hope of Gods assistance to goe through with it , then to baulke the opportunity of doing God and his brethren so great a service . This part therefore of this Doctrine is manifestly untrue . The other not only false but impious ; for therein you plainly give us to understand , that in your judgement , a resolution to avoid sinne , to the uttermost of our power , is no necessary meanes of Salvation , nay that a man may resolve not to doe so , without any danger of damnation . Therein you teach us , that we are to doe more for the love of our selves , and our own happinesse then for the love of God ; and in so doing contradict our Saviour , who expresly commands us , to love the Lord our God withall our heart , withall our soule , and withall our strength ; and hath taught us that the loue of God consists in avoiding sinne and keeping his commandements . Therein you directly crosse S. Pauls doctrine , who though he were a very probable Doctor , and had delivered his judgement for the lawfulnesse of eating meats offered to Idols ; yet he assures us that he which should make scruple of doing so , and forbear upon his scruple , should not sinne , but only be aweak brother ; whereas he , who should doe it with a doubtfull conscience , ( though the action were by S. Paul warranted lawfull , yet ) should sinne and be condemn'd for so doing . You pretend indeed to be rigid defenders and stout champions for the necessity of good workes ; but the truth is , you speak lies in hypocrisy , and when the matter is well examin'd , will appear to make your selves and your own functions necessary , but obedience to God unnecessary : Which will appear to any man who considers what strict necessity the Scripture imposes upon all men , of effectuall mortification of the habits of all vices , and effectuall conversion to newnesse of life , and universall obedience , and withall remembers that an act of Attrition , which you say with Priestly absolution is sufficient to salvation , is not mortification , which being a work of difficulty and time , cannot be perform'd in an instant . But for the present , it appears sufficiently out of this impious assertion , which makes it absolutely necessary for men , either in Act if it be possible , or if not , in Desire , to be Baptiz'd and Absolv'd by you , and that with Intention : and in the mean time warrants them that for avoding of sinne , they may safely follow the uncertain guidance of a vain man , who you cannot deny may either be deceiv'd himselfe , or , out of malice deceive them , & neglect the certain direction of God himselfe , and their own consciences . What wicked use is made of this Doctrine , your own long experience can better informe you , then it is possible for me to doe : yet my own litle conversation with you affords one memorable example to this purpose . For upon this ground I knew a young Scholar in Doway , licenc'd by a great Casuist to swear a thing as upon his certain knowledge , whereof he had yet no knowledge but only a great presumption , because ( forsooth ) it was the opinion of one Doctor that he might doe so . And upon the same ground , whensoever you shall come to have a prevailing party in this Kingdome , and power sufficient to restore your Religion , you may doe it by deposing or killing the King , by blowing up of Parliaments , and by rooting out all others of a different faith from you . Nay this you may doe , though in your own opinion it be unlawfull , because Bellarmine , a man with you of approved vertue , learning and judgement , hath declared his opinion for the lawfulnesse of it , in saying , that want of power to maintaine a rebellion , was the only reason that the Primitive Christians did not rebell against the persecuting Emperors . By the same rule , seeing the Priests and Scribes and Pharisees , men of greatest repute among the Iewes for vertue , learning and wisdome , held it a lawfull and a pious work to persecute Christ and his Apostles , it was lawfull for the people to follow their leaders : for herein , according to your Doctrine , they proceeded prudently , and according to the conduct of opinion , maturely weighed and approved by men as it seem'd to them of vertue , learning and wisdome ; nay by such as sate in Moses chaire , and of whom it was said , whatsoever they bid you observe , that observe and doe : which universall you pretend is to be understood universally , and without any restriction or limitation . And as lawfull was it for the Pagans to persecute the Primitive Christians , because Truian & Pliny , men of great vertue and wisdome were of this opinion . Lastly , that most impious & detestable Doctrine , ( which by a foule calumny you impute to me , who abhorre and detest it , ) that men may be saved in any Religion , followes from this ground unavoidably . For certainly Religion is one of those things which is necessary only because it is commanded : for if none were commanded under pain of damnation , how could it be damnable to be of any ? Neither can it be damnable to be of a false Religion , unlesse it be a sin to be so . For neither are men saved by good luck , but only by obedience ; neither are they damned for their ill fortune but for sin and disobedience . Death is the wages of nothing but sin : and S. Iames sure intended to deliver the adequate cause of sin and death in those words , Lust when it hath conceived bringeth forth sin , and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death . Seeing therefore in such things , according to your doctrine , it is sufficient for avoiding of sin , that we proceed prudently , & by the conduct of some probable opinion , maturely weighed & approv'd by men of learning , vertue and wisdome : and seeing neither Iews want their Gamaliels , nor Pagans their Antoninus'es , nor any sect of Christians such professors and maintainers of their severall sects , as are esteem'd by the people , which know no better ( and that very reasonably ) men of vertue , learning , and wisdome , it followes evidently that the embracing their religion proceeds upon such reason as may warrant their action to bee prudent , and this is sufficient for avoiding of sin , and therefore certainly for avoiding damnation , for that in humane affaires and discourse , evidence and certainty cannot be alwaies expected . I haue stood the longer upon the refutation of this doctrine , not only because it is impious , and because bad use is made of it , and worse may be , but only because the contrary position , That men are bound for avoiding sin alwaies to take the safest way , is a faire and sure foundation , for a cleer confutation of the main conclusion , which in this Chapter you labour in vain to prove , and a certain proof that in regard of the precept of charity towards ones selfe , and of obedience to God , Papists ( unlesse ignorance excuse them ) are in state of sin as long as they remain in subjection to the Roman Church . 9 For if the safer way for avoiding sin , be also the safer way for avoiding damnation , then certainly whether the way of Protestants must be more secure , and the Roman way more dangerous , take but into your consideration these ensuing controversies : Whether it be lawfull to worship Pictures ? to picture the Trinity ? to invocate Saints and Angels ? to deny Law-men the Cup in the Sacrament ? to adore the Sacrament ? to prohibite certain Orders of men and woemen to marry ? to celebrate the publique service of God in a language which the assistants generally understand not ? and you will not choose but confesse that in all these you are on the more dangerous side for the committing of sin , and we on that which is more secure . For in all these things , if we say true , you doe that which is impious : on the other side if you were in the right , yet we might be secure enough , for we should only not doe something which you confesse not necessary to be done . We pretend , and are ready to justifie out of principles agreed upon between us , that in all these things , you violate the manifest commandements of God ; and alleage such texts of Scripture against you , as , if you would weigh them with any indifference , would put the matter out of question , but certainly you cannot with any modesty deny , but that at least they make it questionable . On the other side , you cannot with any face pretend , and if you should , know not how to goe about to proue , that there is any necessity of doing any of these things ; that it is unlawfull not to worship pictures , not to picture the Trinity , not to invocate Saints & Angels , not to giue all men the entire Sacrament , not to adore the Eucharist , not to prohibite marriage , not to celebrate divine service in an unknown tongue : I say you neither doe nor can pretend that there is any law of God which enjoynes us , no nor so much as an Evangelicall Counsell that advises us to doe any of these things . Now where no law is there can be no sin , for sin is the transgression of the law ; It remaines therefore that our forbearing to doe these things , must be free from all danger & suspicion of sin ; whereas your acting of them , must be , if not certainly impious , without all contradiction questionable and dangerous . I conclude therefore that which was to be concluded , that if the safer way for avoiding sin , be also ( as most certainly it is , ) the safer way for avoiding damnation , then certainly the way of Protestants must bee more safe , and the Roman way more dangerous . You will say , I know , that these things being by your Church concluded lawfull , we are obliged by God , though not to doe , yet to approue them ; at least in your iudgement we are so , and therefore our condition is as questionable as yours . I answer . The Authority of your Church is no common principle agreed upon between us , and therefore upon that you are not to dispute against us . We might presse you with our judgement as well and as justly as you doe us with yours . Besides , this very thing that your Church hath determin'd these things lawfull , and commanded the approbation of them , is that whereof she is accused by us , and we maintain you haue done wickedly , or at least very dangerously in so determining ; because in these very determinations , you haue forsaken that way which was secure from sinne , and haue chosen that which you cannot but know to be very questionable and doubtfull ; & consequently haue forsaken the safe way to heaven , and taken a way which is full of danger . And therefore , although if your obedience to your Church were questioned , you might fly for shelter to your Churches determinations , yet when these very determinations are accused , me thinks they should not be alleag'd in defence of themselues . But you will say , your Church is infallible , & therefore her determinations not unlawfull . Ans. They that accuse your Church of error , you may be sure doe question her infallibility : shew therefore where it is written , that your Church is infallible , and the dispute will be ended . But till you doe so , give mee leaue rather to conclude thus , your Church in many of her determinations , chooses not that way which is more secure from sin , and therefore not the safest way to salvation ; then vainly to imagine her infallible , and there upon to belieue , though she teach not the securest way to avoid sin , yet shee teaches the certainst way to obtain salvation . 10 In the close of this Number , you say as followes , If it may appeare though not certain , yet at least probable , that Protestancy unrepented destroies salvation , and withall that there is a safer way , it will follow that they are obliged by the law of Charity to that safe way . Ans. Make this appear and I will never perswade any man to continue a Protestant , for if I should , I should perswade him to continue a fool . But after all these prolix discourses , still we see you are at , If it may appeare : From whence without all Ifs and An ds that appeares sufficiently which I said in the beginning of the Chapter , that the foure first Paragraphs of this Chap. are wholly spent in an unnecessary introduction , unto that which never by any man in his right wits was denied , That men in wisdome and charity to themselves are to take the safest way to eternall salvation . 11 Ad § 5. In the fift you begin to make some shew of arguing , & tells us , that Protestants haue reason to doubt in what case they stand from what you have said about the Churches universall infallibility , & of her being Iudge of Controversies , &c. Ans. From all that which you haue said , they have reason only to conclude that you haue nothing to say . They haue as much reason to doubt , whether there can bee any Motion , from what Zeno saies in Aristotles Physicks , as to doubt from what you haue said , whether the Roman Church may possibly erre . For this I dare say , that not the weakest of Zeno's arguments but is stronger then the strongest of yours , and that you would be more perplext in answering any one of them , then I haue been in answering all yours . You are pleas'd to repeat two or three of them in this Section , and in all probability so wise a man as you are , if he would repeat any , would repeat the best , and therefore if I desire the Reader by these to judge of the rest , I shall desire but ordinary justice . 12 The first of them being put into form stands thus , Every least errour in faith destroies the nature of faith ; It is certain that some Protestants doe erre , and therefore they want the substance of Faith. The Major of which Syllogisme I haue formerly confuted by unanswerable argumēts out of one of your own best Authors , who shewes plainly that he hath amongst you , as strange as you make it , many other abettors . Besides , if it were true , it would conclude that either you or the Dominicans haue no faith , in as much as you oppose one another as much as Arminians and Calvinists . 13 The second Argument stands thus , Since all Protestants pretend the like certainty , it is clear that none of them haue any certainty at all : Which argument if it were good , then what can hinder but this must also be so , Since Protestants and Papists pretend the like certainty ; it is cleer that none of them haue any certainty at all ! And this too : Since all Christians pretend the like certainty it is cleer that none of them haue any certainty at all ! And thirdly this : Since men of all religions pretend a like certainty , it is cleer that none of them haue any at all ! And lastly this : Since oft-times they which are abused with a specious Paralogisme , pretend the like certainty with them which demonstrate , it is cleer that none of them haue any certainty at all ! Certainly Sir , Zeal and the Divell did strangely blind you , if you did not see that these horrid impieties were the immediate consequences of your positions , if you did see it , & yet would set them down , you deserve worse censure . Yet such as these , are all the arguments wherewith you conceive your selfe to have prov'd undoubtedly , that Protestants haue reason at least to doubt in what case they stand . Neither am I afraid to venture my life upon it , that your selfe shall not choose so much as one out of all the pack , which I will not shew before indifferent Iudges , either to be impertinent to the question , inconsequent in the deduction , or grounded upon some false , or at least uncertain foundation . 14 Your third and fourth argument may bee thus put into one ; Protestants cannot tell what points in particular be fundamentall ; therefore they cannot tell whether they or their brethren doe not erre fundamentally , and whether their difference be not fundamentall . Both which deductions I haue formerly shewed to be most inconsequent ; for knowing the Scripture to contain all fundamentalls , ( though many more points besides , which makes it difficult to say precisely what is fundamentall and what not , ) knowing this I say and believing it , what can hinder but that I may be well assured , that I belieue all fundamentalls , and that all who believe the Scripture syncerely as well as I , doe not differ from me in any thing fundamentall ? 15 In the close of this Section , you say , that you omit to adde that we want the Sacrament of Repentance instituted for the remission of sins , or at least we must confesse that we hold it not necessary : and yet our own brethren the Century writers acknowledge that in the times of Cyprian and Tertullian , private Confession even of thoughts was used , and that it was then commanded and thought necessary ; and then our Ordination , you say is very doubtfull and all that depends upon it . Ans. I also omit to answer , 1. That your brother Rhenanus , acknowledges the contrary , & assures us that the Confession then required and in use , was publique , and before the Church , and that your auricular Confession was not then in the world ; for which his mouth is stopped by your Index Expurgatorius . 2. That your brother Arcudius acknowledges , that the Eucharist was in Cyprians time given to Infants , and esteemed necessary , or at least profitable for them , and the giving it shewes no lesse ; & now I would know whether you will acknowledge your Church bound to giue it , and to esteem so of it ? 3. That it might be then commanded , and being commanded be thought necessary , and yet be but a Church Constitution . Neither will I deny , if the present Church , could , and would so order it , that the abuses of it might bee prevented , and conceiving it profitable , should enjoyn the use of it , but that being commanded it would be necessary . 4. Concerning our Ordinations , besides that I haue prou'd it impossible that they should be so doubtfull as yours , according to your own principles ; I answer , that experience shewes them certainly sufficient to bring men to faith and repentance , and consequently to salvation ; and that if there were any secret defect of any thing necessary , which we cannot help , God will certainly supply it . 16 Ad § 6. In the sixt , you say , you will not repeat , but only put us again in minde that unlesse the Roman Church were the true Church there was no visible Church upon earth , a thing so manifest that Protestants themselves confesse , &c. Ans. Neither will I repeat , but only put you in minde that you haue not prov'd that there is any necessity that there should be any visible true . Church ; nor if there were , that there was no other besides the Roman . For as for the confession of Protestants which here you insist upon , it is evident out of their own words cited by your selfe , that by the whole world , they meant onely the greatest part of it , which is an usuall figure of speech ; and never intended to deny that besides the Church then reigning & triumphing in this world , there was another militant Church , other Christians visible enough though persecuted and oppressed . Nor thirdly doe you here make good so much as with one fallacy , that if the Roman Church were then the visible Church , it must needs be now the only or the safer way to heaven ; and yet the connexion of this consequence was very necessary to be shewne . For , for ought I know , it was not impossible that it might then be the only Visible Church , & yet now a very dangerous way to heaven , or perhaps none at all . 17 Afterwards you vainly pretend that all Roman Catholiques , not one excepted , professe , that Protestancy unrepented destroies salvation . Frō which generality wee may except two at least to my knowledge , and those are , your selfe , and Franciscus de Sancta Clara , who assures us that Ignorance and Repentance may excuse a Protestant from damnation though dying in his errour . * And this is all the charity , which by your own confession also , the most favourable Protestants allow to Papists ; and therefore with strange repugnance to your selfe you subjoyne , that these are the men whom we must hold not to erre damnably , unlesse we will destroy our owne Church and salvation . Whereas , as I have said before , though you were Turks , and Pagans , we might bee good Christians . Neither is it necessary for the perpetuating of a Church before Luther , that your errours even then should not be damnable , but only not actually damning to some ignorant soules among you . In vaine therefore doe you make such tragedies as here you doe ! In vaine you conjure us with feare and trembling to consider these things ! We have considered them againe and againe , and look't upon them on both sides , & finde neither terrour nor truth in them . Let children and fooles bee terrified with bug-beares , men of understanding will not regard them . 18 Ad § . 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. Your whole discourse in your five next Paragraphs , I have in the beginning of this Chapter fully confuted , by saying , that it stands altogether upon the false foundation of this affected mistake , that we doe and must confesse the Roman Church free from damnable error ; which will presently be apparent , to any one who considers , that the seaventh and tenth are nothing but D. Potters words ; and that in the other three , you obtrude upon us this Crambe no fewer then seven times . May you be pleased to look back to your own Book , & you shall find it so as I have said : & that at least in a hundred other places you make your advantage of this false imputation : which when you have observ'd , and withall considered that your selfe plainly intimate , that D. Potters discourses which here you censure , would be good and concluding , if we did not ( as we doe not ) free you from damnable errour , I hope you will acknowledge that my vouchsafing these Sections the honour of any farther answer , is a great supererrogation in point of civility . Neverthelesse partly that I may the more ingratiate my selfe with you , but especially , that I may stop their mouthes who will be apt to say , that every word of yours which I should omit to speak to , is an unanswerable argument , I will hold my purpose of answering them more punctually and particularly . 19 First then , to your little parenthesis , which you interline among D. Potters words , § . 7. That any small error in faith destroies all faith , ( To omit what hath been said before , ) I answer here what is proper for this place ; that S. Austine , whose authority is here stood upon , thought otherwise : He conceived the Donatists to hold some error in faith and yet not to have no faith . His words of them to this purpose are most pregnant and evident , you are with us ( saith he to the Donatists . Ep. 48. ) in Baptisme , in the Creed , in the other Sacraments : And again . Super gestis cum emerit : Thou hast proved to me that thou hast faith ; prove to me likewise that thou hast charity . Paralell to which words are these of Optatus , Amongst us and you is one ▪ Ecclesiasticall conversation , common lessons ; the same faith , the same Sacraments . Where by the way we may observe , that in the judgements of these Fathers , even the Donatists , though Heretiques and Schismatiques , gave true Ordination , the true Sacrament of Matrimony , true Sacramentall Absolution , Confirmation , the true Sacrament of the Eucharist , true extream Vnction ; or else ( choose you whether ) some of these were not then esteem'd Sacraments . But for Ordination , whether he held it a Sacrament or no , certainly he held that it remain'd with them entire : for so he saies in expresse tearmes , in his book against Parmenianus his Epistle . Which Doctrine if you can reconcile with the present Doctrine of the Roman Church , Eris mihi magnus Apollo . 20 Whereas in the beginning of the 8. Sect. you deny that your argument drawn from our confessing the Possibility of your Salvation , is for simple people alone , but for all men : I answer , certainly whosoever is moved with it , must be so simple as to think this a good and a concluding reason ; Some ignorant men in the Roman Church may be sav'd , by the confession of Protestants , ( which is indeed all that they confesse , ) therefore it is safe for me to be of the Roman Church ; and he that does think so , what reason is there why he should not think this as good , Ignorant Protestans may be saved , by the confession of Papists , ( by name Mr K. ) therefore it is safe for me to be of the Protestant Church ? Whereas you say , that this your argument is grounded upon an inevitable necessity for us , either to grant Salvation to your Church , or to entail certain damnation upon our own , because ours can have no being till Luther , unlesse yours be supposed to have been the true Church . I answer , this cause is no cause : For first , as Luther had no being before Luther , and yet he was when he was , though he was not before ; so there is no repugnance in the termes , but that there might be a true Church after Luther , though there were none for some ages before ; as since Columbus his time , there have been Christians in America , though before there were none for many ages . For neither doe you shew , neither does it appear , that the generation of Churches is univocall , that nothing but a Church can possibly beget a Church ; nor that the present being of a true Church , depends necessarily upon the perpetuity of a Church in all ages ; any more then the present being of Peripateticks or Stoicks depends upon a perpetuall pedigree of them . For though I at no hand deny the Churches perpetuity , yet I see nothing in your book to make me understand , that the truth of the present depends upon it , nor any thing that can hinder , but that a false Church , ( Gods providence overwatching and overruling it , ) may preserve the meanes of confuting their own Heresies , and reducing men to truth , and so raising a true Church , I mean the integrity and the authority of the word of God with men . Thus the Iewes preserve meanes to make men Christians , and Papists preserve means to make men Protestants , and Protestants ( which you say are a false Church ) doe , as you pretend , preserve means to make men Papists ; that is , their own Bibles , out of which you pretend to be able to prove that they are to be Papists . Secondly , you shew not , nor does it appear that the perpetuity of the Church depends on the truth of yours . For though you talke vainly , as if you were the only men in the world before Luther , yet the world knowes that this but talke , and that there were other Christians besides you , which might have perpetuated the Church though you had not beene . Lastly , you shew not , neither doth it appear , that your being acknowledged in some sense a true Church , doth necessarily import , that we must grant salvation to it , unlesse by it you understand the ignorant members of it , which is a very unusuall Sinechdoche . 21 Whereas you say , that Catholiques never granted that the Donatists had a true Church or might be saved . I answ . S. Austin himselfe granted that those among them , who sought the Truth , being ready when they found it to correct their error were not Heretiques , and therefore notwithstanding their error might be saved . And this is all the Charity that Protestants allow to Papists . 22 Whereas you say , that D. Potter having cited out of S. Austine the words of the Catholiques , that the Donatists had true Baptisme , when he comes to the contrary words of the Donatist , addes , no Church , no Salvation ! Ans. You wrong D. Potter , who pretends not to cite S. Austines formall words but only his sense , which in him is compleat and full for that purpose whereto it is alleaged by D. Potter . His words are , Petilianus dixit , venite ad Ecclesiam Populi & aufugite Traditores , si perire non vultis : Petilian saith , come to the Church yee people , and fly from the Traditours if ye will not be damn'd , for that yee may know that they being guilty , esteeme very well of our Faith , Behold I Baptize these whom they have infected ; but they receive those whom we have baptized . Where it is plain , that Petilian by his words makes the Donatists the Church , and excludes the Catholiques from salvation absolutely . And therefore no Church , no Salvation was not D. Potters addition . And whereas you say , the Catholiques never yeelded that among the Donatists there was a true Church and hope of Salvation , I say it appears by what I have alleaged out of S. Austine , that they yeelded both these were among the Donatists , as much as we yeeld them to be among the Papists . As for D. Potters acknowledgement ; that they maintained an error in the matter & nature of it Hereticall : This proves them but Materiall Heretiques , whom you doe not exclude from possibility of Salvation . So that all things considered , this argument must be much more forcible from the Donatists against the Catholiques , then from Papists against Protestants , in regard Protestants grant Papists no more hope of salvation then Papists grant Protestants : whereas the Donatists excluded absolutely all but their own Part from hope of Salvation , so farre as to account them no Christians that were not of it : the Catholiques mean while accounting them Brethren , and freeing those among them , from the imputation of Heresy , who being in error quaerebant cautâ sollicitudine veritatem corrigi parati cùm invenerint . 23 Whereas you say , That the Argument for the certainty of their Baptisme ( because it was confessed good by Catholiques , whereas the Baptisme of Catholiques was not confessed by them to be good , ) is not so good as yours , touching the certainty of your Salvation grounded on the confession of Protestants , because wee confesse there is no damnable error in the Doctrine or practice of the Roman Church : I Ans. no : we confesse no such matter , and though you say so a hundred times , no repetition will make it true . We professe plainly , that many damnable errors plainly repugnant to the precepts of Christ both Ceremoniall and Morall , more plainly then this of Rebaptization , and therefore more damnable , are believed and professed by you . And therefore seeing this is the only disparity you can devise , and this is vanished , it remaines that as good an answer as the Catholiques made touching the certainty of their Baptisme , as good may we make , and with much more evidence of Reason , touching the security and certainty of our Salvation . 24 By the way I desire to be inform'd , seeing you affirme that Rebaptizing those whom Hereticks had baptized was a sacriledge , and a profession of a damnable Heresie , when it began to be so ? If from the beginning it were so , then was Cyprian a sacrilegious professor of a damnable heresy , and yet a Saint and a martyr . If it were not so , then did your Church excommunicate Firmilian and others , and separate from them without sufficient ground of Excommunication or Separation , which is Schismaticall . You see what difficulties you runne into on both sides ; choose whether you will , but certainly both can hardly be avoided . 25 Whereas again in this § . you obtrude upon us , That we cannot but confesse that your doctrine containes no damnable error , and that yours is so certainly a true Church , that unlesse yours be true we cannot pretend any : I answer , there is in this neither truth nor modesty to outface us , that we cannot but confesse what indeed we connot but deny . For my part , if I were upon the rack , I perswade my selfe I should not confesse the one nor the other . 26 Whereas again presently you adde , that D. Potter grants we should be guilty of Schisme , if we did cut off your Church from the body of Christ and the hope of Salvation : I have shewed above that he grants no such matter . He saies indeed , that our not doing so frees us from the imputation of Schisme , & from hence you sophistically inferre , that he must grant , If we did so , wee were Schismatiques , and then make your Reader believe ; that this is D. Potters confession , it being indeed your own false collection . For as every one that is not a Papist , is not a Iesuit , and yet not every one that is a Papist is a Iesuit : As whosoever comes not into England , comes not to London , and yet many may come to England , and not come to London : As whosoever is not a man , is not a King , and yet many are men that are not Kings : So likewise it may be certain , that whosoever does not so is free from Schisme , and yet they that doe so ( if there be sufficient cause , ) may be not guilty of it . 27 Whereas you pretend to wonder that the Doctor did not answer the argument of the Donatists , which he saies is all one with yours , but referres you to S. Austine there to read it , as if every one carried with him a Library , or were able to examin the places in S. Austin : I answer , the parity of the Arguments was that which the Doctor was to declare , whereto it was impertinent what the answer was : But sufficient it was to shew that the Donatists argument which you would never grant good , was yet as good 〈◊〉 yours , and therefore yours could not be good . Now to this purpose as the concealing the answer was no way advantagious , so to produce it was not necessary ; and therefore he did you more service then he was bound to , in referring you to S. Austin for an answer to it . Whereas you say , he had reason to conceale it because it makes directly against himselfe : I say it is so farre from doing so , that it will serve in proportion to the argument , as fitly as if it had been made for it : for as S. Austine saies , that Catholiques approve the Doctrine of Donatists , but abhorre their Heresy of Re-baptization : so we say , that we approve those fundamentall and simply necessary Truths which you retaine , by which some good soules among you may be saved , but abhorre your many Superstitions and Heresies . And as he saies , that as gold is good , yet ought not to be sought for among a company of Theeves , and Baptisme good but not to be sought for in the Conventicles of Donatists : so say we , that the Truths you retaine are good , and as we hope sufficient to bring good ignorant soules among you to salvation , yet are not to be sought for in the Conventicle of Papists , who hold with them a mixture of many vanities , and many impieties . For , as for our freeing you from damnable Heresy , and yeelding you Salvatiō , ( which stone here again you stumble at , ) neither he nor any other Protestant is guilty of it ; and therefore you must confesse that this very answer will serve Protestants against this charme of Papists , as well as S. Austine against the Donatists , and that indeed it was not D. Potter but You , that , without a Sarcasme , had reason to conceale this Answer . 28 The last piece of D. Potters book , which you are pleased to take notice of in this first Part of yours , is an argument he makes in your behalfe p. 79. of his book , where he makes you speak thus , If Protestants believe the Religion of Papists to be a safe way to heaven , why doe they not follow it ? This argument you like not , because many things may be good and yet not necessary to be embraced by every body , & therefore scoffe at it , and call it an argument of his own , a wise argument , a wise demand : and then aske of him , what he thinkes of it being fram'd thus , Our Religion is safe , even by your confession , and therefore you ought to grant that all may embrace it . And yet farther thus , Among different Religions one only can be safe : But yours by our own confession is safe : where as you hold that in ours there is no hope of salvation , therefore we ought to embrace yours . Ans. I have advised with him , & am to tell you frō him , that he thinks reasonable well of the arguments , but very ill of him that makes them , as affirming so often without shame and conscience , what he cannot but know to be plainly false : and his reason is because he is so farre from confessing , or giving you any ground to pretend he does confesse , that your Religion is safe for all that are of it , from whence only it will follow that all may safely embrace it , that in this very place , from which you take these words , he professeth plainly , that it is extreamly dangerous , if not certainly damnable to all such as professe it , when either they doe , or if their hearts were upright and not perversly obstinat might believe the contrary , and that for us wh● are convinc'd in conscience that she ( the Rom●● Church ) erres in many things , it lies upon us , even under pain of damnation to forsake her in those errors . And though here you take upon you a shew of great rigour , and will seem to hold that in our way there is no hope of Salvation ; yet formerly you have been more liberall of your charity towards us , and will needs vye and contend with D. Potter which of the two shall be more Charitable , assuring us that you allow Protestants as much Charity as D. Potter spares you , for whom he makes Ignorance the best hope of Salvation . And now I appeale to any indifferent reader , whether our disavowing to confesse you free from damnable error , were not ( as I pretend ) a full confutation of all that you say in these five foregoing Paragraphs : And as for you I wonder , what answer , what evasion , what shift you can devise to cleere your selfe from dishonesty , for imputing to him almost a hundred times , this acknowledgment which he never makes , but very often , and that so plainly that you take notice of it , professeth the contrary ! 29 The best defence that possibly can be made for you , I conceive , is this , that you were led into this error , by mistaking a supposition of a confession , for a confession ; a Rhetoricall concession of the Doctors , for a positive assertion . He saies indeed of your errors , Though of themselves they be not damnable to them which believe as they professe , yet for us to professe what we believe not , were without question damnable . But , to say , Though your errors be not damnable , we may not professe them , is not to say , your errors are not damnable , but only though they be not . As if you shoul say , though the Church erre in points not fundamentall , yet you may not separate from it : Or , though we doe erre in believing Christ really present , yet our error frees us from Idolatry : Or , as if a Protestant should say , Though you doe not commit Idolatry in adoring the Host , yet being uncertain of the Priests Intention to consecrate , at least you expose yourselfe to the danger of it : I presume you would not think it fairely done , if any man should interpret either this last speech as an acknowledgemēt , that you doe not commit Idol●try , or the former as confessions , that you doe erre in points not fundamentall , that you doe erre in believing the reall presence . And therefore you ought not so to have mistaken D. Potters words , as if he had confessed the errors of your Church not damnable , when he saies no more but this , Though they be so , or , suppose , or put the case they be so , yet being errors , we that know them may not professe them to be divine truths . Yet this mistake might have been pardonable , had not D. Potter in many places of his book , by declaring his judgement touching the quality and malignity of your errors , taken away from you all occasion of error . But now that he saies plainly , That your Church hath many waies played the Harlot , and in that regard , deserv'd a Bill of divorce from Christ , and the detestation of Christians p. 11. That for that Masse of Errors and abuses in judgement and practice which is proper to her , and wherein she differs from us , we judge a reconciliation impossible , and to us ( who are convicted in conscience of her corruptions ) damnable . pag. 20. That Popery is the contagion or plague of the Church . p. 60. That we cannot , we dare not communicate with her in her publique Liturgy , which is manifestly polluted with drosse of Superstition . p. 68. That they who in former ages dyed in the Church of Rome died in many sinfull errors . p. 78. That they that have understanding and means to discover their errors and neglect to use them , he dares not flatter them with so easy a censure , as to give them hope of salvation p. 79. That the way of the Roman Religion is not safe , but very dangerous , if not certainly damnable , to such as professe it , when they believe ( or if their hearts were upright and not perversely obstinate might believe ) the contrary , p. 79. That your Church is but ( in some sense ) a true Church , and your errors only to some men not damnable , & that we who are convinc'd in conscience that she erres in many things , are under pain of damnation to forsake her in those errors . Seeing I say , he saies all this so plainly and so frequently , certainly your charging him falsely with this acknowledgement , and building a great part not only of your discourse in this Chapter , but of your whole book upon it , possibly it may be palliated with some excuse , but it can no way be defended with any just apology . Especially seeing you your selfe more then once or twice , take notice of these his severer censures of your Church , and the errors of it , and make your advantage of them . In the first number of your first Chapter , you set down three of the former places ; and from thence inferre , That as you affirme Protestancy unrepented destroies Salvation , so D. Potter pronounces the like heavy doome against Roman Catholiques : and again § . 4. of the same Chap. We allow Protestants as much charity as D. Potter spare● us , for whom he makes ignorance the best hope of salvation . And c. 5. § 41. you have these words : It is very strange that you iudge us extreamly uncharitable in saying Protestants cannot be saved , while your selfe avouch the same of all Learned Catholiques , whom Ignorance cannot excuse ! Thus out of the same mouth you blow hot and cold ; and one while , when it is for your purpose , you professe D. Potter censures your errors as heavily as you doe ours ; which is very true , for he gives hope of Salvation to none among you , but to those whose ignorance was the cause of their error , and no sinne cause of their ignorance : and presently after , when another project comes in your head , you make his words softer then oile towards you ; you pretend he does and must confesse , That your Doctrine containes no damnable error , that your Church is certainly a true Church , that your way to heaven is a safe way , and all these acknowledgements you set down simple and absolute , without any restriction or limitation ; whereas in the Doctor they are all so qualified , that no knowing Papist can promise himselfe any security or comfort from them . We confesse ( saith he ) the Church of Rome to be ( in some sense ) a true Church , and her errors ( to some men ) not damnable : we believe her Religion safe , that is , by Gods great mercy not damnable , to some such as believe what they professe : But we believe it not safe but very dangerous , if not certainly damnable to such as professe it , when they believe ( or if their hearts were upright and not perversly obstinate might believe ) the contrary . Observe I pray these restraining termes which formerly you have dissembled , A true Church in some sense , not damnable to some men , a safe way , that is by Gods great mercy not damnable to some : And then seeing you have pretended these confessions to be absolute , which are thus plainly limited , how can you avoid the imputation of an egregious Sophister ? You quarrell with the Doctor , in the end of your Preface , for using in his Book such ambiguous tearmes as these , in some sort , in some sense , in some degree : and desire him if he make any reply , either to forbear them , or to tell you roundly in what sort , in what sense , in what degree , he understands these and the like mincing phrases . But the truth is he hath not left them so ambiguous and undetermin'd as you pretend ; but told you plainly , in what sense , your Church may passe for a true Church , viz. In regard we may hope that she retaines those truths which are simply , absolutely , and indispensably necessary to Salvation , which may suffice to bring those good soules to heaven , who wanted meanes of discovering their errors ; this is the charitable construction in which you may passe for a Church : And to what men your Religion may be safe , and your errors not damnable , viz. to such whom Ignorance may excuse , and therefore he hath more cause to complain of you , for quoting his words without those qualifications , then you to finde fault with him for using of them . 30 That your Discourse in the 12. § . presseth you as forcibly as Protestants , I have shewed above : I adde here , 1. Whereas you say that faith , according to rigid Calvinists , is either so strong , that once had , it can never be lost , or so more then weak , and so much nothing that it can never begotten : That , these are words without sense . Never any Calvinist affirmed that faith was so weak , and so much nothing that it can never be gotten : but it seemes you wanted matter to make up your Antithesis , and therefore were resolved to speak empty words rather then loose your figure , Crimina rasis Librat in antithetis , doct as posuisse Figuras Laudatur . 2. That there is no Calvinist that will deny the Truth of this proposition , Christ died for all , nor to subscribe to that sense of it , which your Dominicans put upon it ; neither can you with coherence to the received Doctrine of your own Society , deny that they as well as the Calvinists , take away the distinction of sufficient and effectuall grace , and indeed hold none to be sufficient , but only that which is effectuall . 3. Whereas you say , They cannot make their calling certain by good workes , who doe certainly believe that before any good works they are justified , and justified by faith alone , and by that faith whereby they certainly believe they are justified : I ans . There is no Protestant but believes that Faith , Repentance , and universall Obedience , are necessary to the obtaining of Gods favour and eternall happinesse . This being granted , the rest is but a speculative Controversy , a Question about words which would quickly vanish , but that men affect not to understand one another . As if a company of Physitians were in consultation , and should all agree , that three medicines and no more were necessary for the recovery of the Patients health , this were sufficient for his direction towards the recovery of his health ; though concerning the proper and specificall effects of these three medicines , there should be amongst them as many differences as men : So likewise being generally at accord that these three things , Faith , Hope , & Charity , are necessary to salvation , so that whosoever wants any of them cannot obtain it , and he which hath them all cannot faile of it , it is not very evident that they are sufficiently agreed for mens directions to eternall Salvation ? And seeing Charity is a full comprehension of all good workes , they requiring Charity as a necessary qualification in him that will be saved , what sense is there in saying , they cannot make their calling certain by good workes ? They know what salvation is as well as you , and have as much reason to desire it : They believe it as heartily as you , that there is no good worke but shall have its proper reward , and that there is no possibility of obtaining the eternall reward without good workes : and why then may not this Doctrine be a sufficient incitement and provocation unto good workes ? 31 You say , that they certainly believe that before any good works they are iustified : But this is a calumny . There is no Protestant but requires to Iustification , Remission of sinnes , and to Remission of sinnes they all require Repentance , and Repentance I presume may not be denied the name of a good worke , being indeed , if it be rightly understood , and according to the sense of the word in Scripture , an effectuall conversion from all sinne to all holinesse . But though it be taken for meer sorrow for sinnes past , and a bare purpose of amendment , yet even this is a good worke , and therefore Protestants requiring this to Remission of sinnes , and Remission of sinnes to justification , cannot with candor be pretended to believe , that they are justified before any good worke . 32 You say , They believe themselves iustified by faith alone , and that by that faith whereby they believe themselves iustified : Some peradventure doe so , but withall they believe that that faith which is alone , and unaccompanied with sincere and universall obedience , is to be esteem'd not faith but presumption , and is at no hand sufficient to justification : that though Charity be not imputed unto justification , yet is it required as a necessary disposition in the person to be justified , and that though in regard of the imperfection of it , no man can be justified by it , yet that on the other side , no man can be justified without it . So that upon the whole matter , a man may truly and safely say , that the Doctrine of these Protestants , taken altogether , is not a Doctrine of Liberty , not a Doctrine that turnes hope into presumptiō , and carnall security ; though it may justly be feared , that many licentious persons , taking it by halfes , have made this wicked use of it . For my part , I doe heartily wish , that by publique Authority it were so ordered , that no man should ever preach or print this Doctrine that Faith alone justifies , unlesse he joynes this together with it , that universall obedience is necessary to salvation . And besides that those Chapters of S. Paul which intreat of justification by faith , without the works of the Law , were never read in the Church , but when the 13. Chap. of the 1. Epist. to the Corinth . concerning the absolute necessity of Charity should be , to prevent misprision , read together with them . 33 Whereas you say , that some Protestants doe expresly affirme the former point to be the soule of the Church , &c. and that therefore they must want the Theologicall vertue of Hope , and that none can have true hope , while they hope to be saved in their Communion . I Ans. They have great reason to believe the Doctrine of Iustification by faith only , a Point of great weight and importance , if it be rightly understood : that is , they have reason to esteeme it a principall and necessary duty of a Christian , to place his hope of justification and salvation , not in the perfection of his own righteousnesse ( which if it be imperfect will not justify , ) but only in the mercies of God through Christs satisfaction : and yet notwithstanding this , nay the rather for this , may preserve themselves in the right temper of good Christians , which is a happy mixture and sweet composition of confidence and feare . If this Doctrine be otherwise expounded then I have here expounded , I will not undertake the justification of it , only I will say ( that which I may doe truly ) that I never knew any Protestant such a soli-fidian , but that he did believe these divine truths ; That he must make his calling certain by good workes : That he must work out his salvation with Fear and Trembling , and that while he does not so , he can have no well-grounded hope of Salvation : I say I never met with any who did not believe these divine Truths , and that with a more firme , and a more unshaken assent , then he does that himselfe is predestinate , and that he is justified by believing himselfe justified . I never met with any such , who if he saw there were a necessity 〈◊〉 doe either , would not rather forgoe his beliefe of these Doctrines then the former : these which he sees disputed and contradicted and opposed with a great multitude of very potent Arguments ; then those , which being the expresse words of Scripture , whosoever should call into question , could not with any modesty pretend to the title of Christian. And therefore there is no reason but we may believe , that their full assurance of the former Doctrines doth very well qualify their perswasion of the latter , and that the former ( as also the lives of many of them doe sufficiently testify ) are more effectuall to temper their hope , and to keep it at a stay of a filiall and modest assurance of Gods favour , built upon the conscience of his love and fear , then the latter can be to swell and puffe them up into vain confidence and ungrounded presumption . This reason , joyn'd with our experience of the honest and religious conversation of many men of this opinion , is a sufficient ground for Charity , to hope well of their hope : and to assure our selves that it cannot be offensive , but rather most acceptable to God , if notwithstanding this diversity of opinion , we embrace each other with the strict embraces of love & communion . To you and your Church we leave it , to separate Christians from the Church , and to proscribe them from heaven upon triviall and trifling causes : As for our selves , we conceive a charitable judgement of our Brethren and their errors , though untrue , much more pleasing to God then a true judgement , if it be uncharitable ; and and therefore shall alwaies choose ( if we doe erre ) to erre on the milder and more mercifull part , and rather to retain those in our Communion which deserve to be ejected , then eject those that deserve to be retain'd . 34 Lastly , whereas you say , that seeing Protestants differ about the point of Iustification , you must needs inferre that they want Vnity in faith , and consequently all faith , and then that they cannot agree what points are fundamentall ; I Answer , to the first of these inferences , that as well might you inferre it upon Victor Bishop of Rome and Poli●rates ; upon Stephen Bishop of Rome and S. Cyprian : in as much as it is indeniably evident , that what one of those esteemed necessary to salvation the other esteemed not so . But points of Doctrine ( as all other things ) are as they are , and not as they are esteemed : neither can a necessary point be made unnecessary by being so accounted , nor an unnecessary point be made necessary by being overvalued . But as the ancient Philosophers , ( whose different opinions about the soule of man you may read in Aristotle de Anima , and Cicero's Tusculan Questions , ) notwithstanding their divers opinions touching the nature of the soule , yet all of them had soules , and soules of the same nature : Or as those Physitians who dispute whether the braine or heart be the principall part of a man , yet all of them have braines and have hearts , and herein agree sufficiently : So likewise , though some Protestants esteeme that Doctrine the soule of the Church , which others doe not so highly value , yet this hinders not but that which is indeed the soule of the Church may be in both 〈◊〉 of them ; and though one account that a necessary truth which 〈◊〉 account neither necessary nor perhaps true , yet this notwithstanding , in those truths which are truly & really necessary they may all agree . For no Argument can be more sophisticall then this ; They differ in some points which they esteeme necessary ; Therefore they differ in some that indeed and in truth are so . ●35 Now as concerning the other inference , That they cannot agree what points are fundamentall : I have said and prov'd formerly that there is no such necessity as you imagin or pretend , that men should certainly know what is , and what is not fundamentall . They that believe all things plainly delivered in Scripture , believe all things fundamentall , and are at sufficient Vnity in matters of faith , though they cannot precisely and exactly distinguish between what is fundamentall and what is profitable : nay though by error they mistake some vaine , or perhaps hurtfull opinions for necessary and fundamentall Truths . Besides , I have shewed above , that as Protestants doe not agree ( for you overreach in saying they cannot ) touching what points are fundamentall ; so neither doe you agree what points are defin'd & so to be accounted , and what are not : nay , nor concerning the subject in which God hath placed this pretended Authority of defining : some of you setling it in the Pope himselfe , though alone without a Councell : Others in a Councell , though divided from the Pope : Others only in the conjunction of Councell and Pope : Others not in this neither , but in the acceptation of the present Church Vniversall : Lastly , others not attributing it to this neither , but only to the perpetuall Succession of the Church of all ages : of which divided Company it is very evident and undeniable , that every former may be and are obliged to hold many things defin'd and therefore necessary , which the latter , according to their own grounds , have no obligation to doe , nay cannot doe so upon any firme and sure and infallible foundation . THE CONCLVSION . ANd thus , by Gods assistance and the advantage of a good cause , I am at length through a passage rather tireing then difficult , arriv'd at the end of my undertaken voyage ; and have , as I suppose , made appear to all dis-interessed and unprejudicate readers what in the begining I undertook , that a vein of Sophistry and Calumny runs clean through this first part of your book : wherein though I never thought of the directions you have been pleas'd to give mee in your Pamphlet entitled a Direction to N. N. yet upon consideration of my answer , I finde that I have proceeded as if I had had it alwaies before my eyes , and steer'd my course by it as by a card and compasse . For first , I have not proceeded by a meere destructive way ( as you call it , ) nor objected such difficulties against your Religion , as upon examination tend to the overthrow of all Religion , but have shewed that the truth of Christianity is cleerely independent upon the truth of Popery : and that on the other side , the arguments you urge , and the courses you take for the maintenance of your Religion , doe manifestly tend ( if they be closely and consequently followed ) to the destruction of all religion , and lead men by the hand to Atheisme and impiety ; whereof I have given you ocular demonstrations in divers places of my book , but especially , in my answer to your direction to N. N. Neither can I discover any repugnance between any one part of my answer and any other , though I have used many more judicious and more searching eyes then mine owne to make , if it were possible , such a discovery : and therefore am in good hope that , though the musicke I have made be but dull and flat , and even downright plain-song , yet your curious and criticall eares shall discover no discord in it ; but on the other side , I have charg'd you frequently and very justly , with manifest contradiction and retractation of your own assertions , and not seldome of the main grounds you build upon , and the principall conclusions which you endeavour to maintain : which I conceive my selfe to have made apparent even to the ●ye , c. 2. § . 5. c. 3. § . 88. c. 4. § . .14 . & 24. c. 5. § . 93. c. 6. § . 6. 7. 12. 17. c. 7. § . 29. and in many other parts of my answer . And though I did never pretend to defend D. Potter absolutely and in all things , but only so farre as he defends truth ; ( neither did D. Potter desire me , nor any law of God or man oblige me to defend him any farther , ) yet I doe not finde that I have cause to differ from him in any matter of moment : particularly , not concerning the infallibility of Gods Church , which I grant with him to be infallible in fundamentalls , because if it should erre in fundamentalls , it were not the Church : Nor concerning the supernaturality of Faith , which I know & believe as well as you to be the gift of God , and that flesh & blood reveal'd it not unto us , but our Father which is in Heaven . But now if it were demanded what defence you can make for deserting Ch. Mistaken in the main question disputed between him and D. Potter , Whether Protestancy , without a particular repentance and dereliction of it , destroy Salvation , whereof I have convinc'd you ? I believe your answer would be much like that which Vlysses makes in the Me●amorphosis for his running away from his friend Nestor , that is , none at all . For Opposing the Articles of the Church of England , the Approbation , I presume , cleeres my book from this imputation . And whereas you give me a Caution , that my grounds destroy not the belief of diverse Doctrines which all good Christians believe , yea and of all verities that cannot be prov'd by naturall reason : I professe syncerely that I doe not know nor believe , that any ground laid by me in my whole Book , is any way inconsistent with any one such Doctrine , or with any verity revealed in the word of God , though neuer so improbable or incomprehensible to Naturall Reason : and if I thought there were , I would deale with it , as those primitive converts dealt with their curious Books in the Acts of the Apostles For the Ep. of S. Iames , and those other Books which were anciently controverted , and are now received by the Church of England as Canonicall ; I am so farre from relying upon any Principles which must ( to my apprehension ) bring with them the deniall of the authority of them , that I my selfe believe them all to be Canonicall . For the overthrowing the Infallibility of all Scripture , my Book is so innocent of it , that the Infallibility of Scripture is the chiefest of all my grounds . And lastly for Arguments tending to prove an impossibility of all Divine , Supernaturall , Infallible Faith and Religion , I assure my self that if you were ten times more a spider then you are , you could suck no poyson from them . My heart , I am sure , is innocent of any such intention : and the searcher of all hearts knowes that I had no other end in writing this Book , but to confirm to the uttermost of my ability the truth of the Divine and Infallible Religion of our dearest Lord and Saviour Christ Iesus , which I am ready to seale and confirm not with my arguments only , but my bloud ! Now these are directions which you have been pleas'd to give me , whether out of a fear that I might otherwise deviate from them , or out of a desire to make others think so : But howsoever , I have not , to my understanding , swarved from them in any thing , which puts me in good hope that my Answer to this first Part of your Book will give even to you your self indifferent good satisfaction . I have also provided , though this were more then I undertook , a just and punctuall examination and refutation of your second Part : But ( if you will give your consent ) am resolv'd to suppresse it , and that for divers sufficient and reasonable considerations . First , because the discussion of the Controversies entreated of in the first Part ( if we shall think fit to proceed in it , as I for my part shall , so long as I have truth to reply , ) will , I conceive , be sufficient employment for us , though wee cast off the burden of those many lesser dispu●es which remain behind in the Second . And perhaps wee may doe God and his Church more service by exactly discussing and fully clearing the truth in these few , then by handling many after a sleight and perfunctory manner . Secondly , because the additiō of the Second Part whether for your purpose or mine is clearly unnecessary : there being no understanding man Papist or Pro●estant , but will confesse that ( for as much as concernes the main Question now in agitation , about the saveablenesse of Protestants ) if the first Part of your Book be answered , there needes no reply to the Second : as on the other side I shall willingly grant , if I have not answered the First , I cannot answer a great part of the Second . Thirdly , because the addition of the Second not only is unnecessary , but in effect by your self confess'd to bee so . For in your preamble to your Second Part you tell us , That the substance of the present Controversie is handled in the first : and therein also you pretend to have answered the chief grounds of D. Potters book : So that in replying to your Second Part I shall doe litle else but pursue shadowes . Fourthly , because your Second Part ( setting aside Repetitions and References ) is in a manner made up of disputes about particular matters , which you are very importunate to have forborn , as suspecting , at least pretending to suspect , that they were brought in purposely by D. Potter to dazle the Reader 's eyes and distract his mind , that hee might not see the clearnesse of the reasons brought in defence of the Generall Doctrine delivered in Charity Mistaken . All which you are likely enough ( if there bee occasion ) to say again to mee ; and therefore I am resolv'd for once even to humour you so farre as to keepe my discourse within those very lists and limits which your self have prescrib'd , and to deal with you upon no other arguments , but only those wherein you conceive your chief advantage and principall strength , and , as it were , your Sampson's lock to lye : wherein if I gain the cause clearly from you ( as I verily hope by Gods help I shall doe ) it cannot but redound much to the honour of the truth maintain'd by me , which by so weak a Champion can overcome such an Achilles for error even in his strongest holds . For these reasons , although I have made ready an answer to your Second Part , and therein have made it sufficiently evident : That for shifting evasions from D. Potters arguments ; for impertinent cavills , and frivolous exceptions , and injurious calumnies against him for misalleaging of Authors : For proceeding upon false and ungrounded princiciples ; for making inconsequent and sophisticall deductions , and , in a word , for all the vertues of an ill answer your Second Part is no way second to the First . Yet notwithstanding all this anvantage , I am resolv'd , if you will give me leave , either wholly to suppresse it , or at least to deferre the publication of it , untill I see what exceptions , upon a twelve-months examinatiō ( for so long I am well assur'd you have had it in your hands ) you can take at this which is now published , that so if my grounds bee discovered false I may give over building on them : or ( if it shall be thought fit ) build on more securely when it shall appeare that nothing materiall and of moment is or can bee objected against them . This I say , upon a supposition that your self will allow these reasons for satisfying and sufficient , and not repent of the motion which your self has made , of reducing the Controversy between us to this short Issue . But in case your mind be altered , upon the least intimation you shall give mee , that you doe not desire to have it out , your desire shall prevail with me above all other reasons , and you shall not fail to receive it with all convenient speed . Only that my Answer may be compleat , and that I may have all my work together , and not be troubled my self , nor enforc'd to trouble you with after-reckonings , I would first entreat you to make good your Promise of not omitting to answer all the particles of D. Potters book , which may any way import , and now at least to take notice of some ( as it seemes to me ) not unconsiderable passages of it , which between your first and second Part , as it were betweene two stooles , have beene suffer'd hitherto to fall to the ground , and not beene vouchsaf'd any answer at all . For after this neglectfull fashion you have passed by in silence , First his discourse , wherein he proves briefly but very effectually , that Protestants may be sav'd , and that the Romā Church , especially the Iesuits are very uncharitable . S. 1. p. 6. 7. 8. 9. Secondly the authorities whereby he justifies , That the ancient Fathers , by the Roman understood alwaies a particular , and never the Catholique Church : to which purpose he alleageth the words of Ignatius , Ambrose , Innocentius , Celestine , Nicolaus ▪ S. 1. p. 10 , Whereunto you say nothing , neither doe you infringe his observation with any one instance to the contrary . Thirdly , the greatest and most substantiall part of his answers to the Arguments of Charity Mistaken , built upon Deut. 17. Numb . 16. Mat. 28. 20. Mat. 18. 17. and in particular many pregnant and convincing Texts of Scripture , quoted in the margent of his book , p. 25. to prove that the Iudges of the Synagogue ( whose Infallibility yet you make an Argument of yours , and therefore must be more credible then yours ) are vainly pretended to have been infallible : but as they were oblig'd to judg according to the Law , so were obnoxious to deviations from it . S. 2. p. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. Fourthly his discourse wherein hee shewes the difference betweene the Prayers for the Dead used by the Ancients , and those now in use in the Roman Church . Fiftly , the Authority of three Ancient , and above twenty moderne Doctors of your own Church alleag'd by him , to shew that in their opinion even Pagans , and therefore much more erring Christians ( if their lives were morally honest ) by Gods extraordinary mercy and Christs merit may be saved . S. 2. p. 45. Sixtly , a great part of his discourse whereby he declares that actuall and externall communion with the Church is not of absolute necessity to Salvation : nay that those might be saved whom the Church utterly refus'd to admit to her Communion . S. 2. p. 46. 47. 48. 49. Seaventhly , his discourse concerning the Churches latitude , which hath in it a cleare determination of the maine Controversy against you : For therein he proves plainly , that all appertain to the Church , who believe that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and Saviour of the world with submission to his Doctrine in mind and will : which hee irrefragably demonstrates by many evident Texts of Scripture containing the substance of his Assertion even in termes . S. 4. p. 114. 115. 116. 117. Eightly , that wherein he shewes by many pertinent examples , that grosse error and true Faith may bee lodged together in the same mind : And that men are not chargeable with the damnable consequences of their erroneous opinions . S. 4. p. 122. Ninthly , a very great part of his Chapter touching the dissensions of the Roman Church , which he shewes ( against the pretences of Charity Mistaken ) to bee no lesse then ours for the importance of the matter , and the pursuite of them to bee exceedingly uncharitable . S. 6. p. 188. 189. 190. 191. 193. 194. 195. 196. 197. Tenthly , his clear refutation and just reprehension of the Doctrine of implicite Faith as it is deliver'd by the Doctors of your Church : which he proves very consonant to the Doctrine of Heretiques and Infidels , but evidently repugnant to the word of God. Ibid. p. 201. 202. 203. 204. 205. Lastly , his discourse wherein hee shewes that it is unlawfull for the Church of after Ages to adde any thing to the Faith of the Apostles : And many of his Arguments whereby hee proves that in the judgment of the Ancient Church the Apostles Creed was esteem'd a sufficient summary of the necessary Points of simple belief , and a great number of great authorities , to justifie the Doctrine of the Church of England touching the Canon of Scripture , especially the Old Testament . S. 7. p. 221 , 223. 228. 229. All these parts of Doctor Potter's book , for reasons best known to your self , you have dealt with as the Priest and Levite in the Gospell did with the wounded Samaritan , that is , only look't upon them and pass'd by : But now at least when you are admonish't of it , that my Reply to your second part ( if you desire it , ) may be perfect , I would entreat you to take them into your consideration , and to make some shew of saying something to them , least otherwise the world should interpret your obstinate silence a plaine confession that you can say nothing . FINIS . GOod reader , through the Authors necessary absence for some weekes while this Book was printing , and by reason of an uncorrected Copy sent to the Presse , some errors have escap'd , notwithstanding the Printers sollicitous and extraordinary care , and the Correctors most assiduous diligence : which I would intreat thee to correct according to this following direction . Pag. Lin. Err. Corr. 6. 1. To the first and second Adde § . 21. Vlt. To the ninth , to the ninteenth . To the ninteenth , To the ninth , 64. 21. Principall prudentiall . 67. 29. Canoniz'd discanoniz'd . 73. In marg . posuit potuit . 108. 21. ou● one . 134. 9. In for . 136. 9. some some thing . 146. 6. a truth truths . 150. 19. she there . 157. 13. vowed avowed . 158. Pe●●lt ▪ best least . 168. 11 , causa pro non caus● non causa pro causa 176. 3. Atheists Antith●sis . ib. 11. dele with .   180. Antepen . government communion . 193. 19. that the. 198. 33. continue the immortall , the 218. 44. profession p●●fection . 220. Post 53. scribd Ad § . 19. I● ▪ 11. Faire Fa●ce . Ib. 33. instruct mistrust . 221. 38. which is which is the Church . 225. 27. nay now ▪ 293. 43. so farre from farre from so . 351. 11. exception exposition . 361. Vlt. Canons Canon . 372. 17. Foundation Fundation of . 393. 32. dele whether   402 44. of themselves in the issue . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A18610-e630 Survey of Religion . Init. a See this acknowledg'd by Bellar : de Script : Eccles●in Philastri● : by Petavius Animad in Epiph . de inscrip . operis ▪ By S. Austin ▪ Lib. de Haeres . Haer. 80 ▪ Notes for div A18610-e3560 A generall consideration of D. Potters Answere . Concerning my Reply . Rules to be observed if D. Potter intend a Rejoynder . Notes for div A18610-e4910 a Mat. 5. 19. * I mean the Divines of Doway : whose profession we have in your Belgick Expurgatorius p. 12. in censura Bertrami , in these words . Seeing in other ancient Catholiques , we tolerate extenuate & excuse very many errors , and devising some shift often deny thē , and put upon them a convenient sense when they are objected to us in disputations and conflicts with our adversaries ; we see no reason why Bertram may not deserve the same equity . In the place above quoted . This great diversity of opinions among you , touching this matter , if any mā doubt of it , let him read Franciscus Picus Mirandula in l. Theorem . in Exposit. Theor . quarti , and T h. Waldensis . Tom. 3. De Sacramentalibus . doct . 3. fol. 5. andhee shall bee fully satisfied that I haue done you no injury . Notes for div A18610-e7870 Qui● tulerit Gracchum &c. a Pag. 11. b Ibid. c Pag. 4. Edit . 1. d Pag. 20. e Pag. 81. g Sleidan . l. 6. fol. 84. h See pag. 39. i Art. 28. k Art. 31. l S. Greg. Hom. 7. in Ezec. a Pag. 131. b In his first book of Eccles . Policy Sect. 1 ● . p. 68. c Ibid. lib. 2. Sect. 4. p. 102. d l. 3. Sect. 8. pag. 1. 146. et alibi . e Advers . Stapl. l. 2. c. 6. Pag. 270. & Pag. 357. f Adversus Stapl. l. 2. c. 4. pag. 300. g lib. de cap. Babyl . tom . 2. Wittemb . f. 88. h In his answer to a coūterfeit Catholique pag. 5. i Epist. cont . Anabap. ad duos Parochos tom . 2. Germ. Wittemb . k Praefat. in epist. lac . in edit . Ie●ensi . l In Euchirid . pag. 63. m In examin . Conc. Trid. part . 1. pag. 55. n Ibid. o Apud Euseb . l. 4. hist. c. 26. p In Synop. q ln carm . de . genuinis Scripturis . r lib. de servo arbitrio . cont . Etas . tom . 2. Witt. fol. 471. s In latinis sermonibus convivialibus Francof . in 8. impr . Anno 1571. t In Germanicis colloq . Lutheri ab Aurifabro editis Francosurt . tit . de libris veteris & novi Test. fol. 379. u Ib. tit . de Patriarchis & Prophet . fol. 282. w Tit. de lib. Ve● . & Nov. Test. x Fol. 380. y Pag. 141. z Heb. v. 1 , a Pag. 141 ▪ b Cont. Adimantn . c. 17. c l. 2. haeretic . fab . d lib. 6. cap. 10. e lib. 6. cap. 11. f Dist. Can. Sancta Rom●na . h In his defence art . 4. Pag. 31. i Pag. 234. k In Synopsi . l Can. 47. m Cont. ●p . Fundam . c. 5. n Tom. 1. fol. 135. o Instit. c. 6. §. 11. p Instit c. 7. §. 12. q lib. de sancta Scriptura p. 52. r Tast. 1. Sect. 10. subd . 4 : joyned with tract . 2. cap. 2. Sect. 10. subd . 2. s Lib. cont . Zwingl . deverit . corp . Christiin Euchar . t In his answere unto M. Iohn Burges pag. 94. u Ibid. w In his Preface to his Bookes of Ecclesiast●call Pollicy . Sect. 6. 26. x In his treatise of the Church In his Epistle dedicatory to the L. Archbishop . y Cont. ep . Fund . cap. 5. z Lib. de util . ●●e . cap. 14. a T●m . ● . Wittemberg . fol. 375. b In lib. de principiis Christian. dogm lib 6● . 13. c De Sacra Scriptura pag. 529. d In his true differ●nce part . 2. e Tract . 2. cap , 1. Sect. 1. f Lib. 32. cont ▪ Faust. g Pag. 247 ▪ h De test . anim . cap. 5. Pag. 24. k Heb. 13. l Cant. 2. m 1. Cor. 10. Ephes. 4. n Mat. 12. o Ioan. c. 10. p Lib. 5. c. 4. q In his defence of M. Hookers books art . 4. p. ●1 . r De unit . Eccles . c. 22. * Some answer so , but he doth not . ) a The first outward motive , not the last assurane● whereon we rest . b The whole Church that he speaks of seemes to be that particular Church , wherein a man is bred and brought up ; and the authority of this he makes an argument which presseth a mans modesty more then his reason . And in saying , it seemes impudent to be of a contrary mind without cause , he implyes ; There may be a just cause to be of a contrary mind , and that then it were no impudence to be so . c Therefore the authority of the Church is not the pause whereon we rest : we had need of more assurance , and the intrinsecall arguments afford it . d Somewhat , but not much , untill it be back'd and inforced by farther reason : it selfe therefore is not the farthest reason and the last resolution . e Observe I pray ; our persuasion , and the testimony of the Church concerning Scripture , may be proved true , therefore neither of them was in his account the farthest proofe . f Naturall reason then built on principles common to all men , is the last resolution ; unto which the Churches authority is but the first inducement . a Neque enim sic pasuit integritas atque notitia literarum quamlibet illustris Episcopi , custodiri , quemadmodum scriptura Canonica tot linguarum literis & ordine & successione celebrationis Ecclesiasticae cus●oditur ; contra quam non defuerunt tamen , qui sub non●●ibus Apostol●rum multa confingere●t . Frustra quidem ; Quia illa sic commendata , sic celebrata , sic nota est . Ferum quid po●sit adversus literas non Canonica authoritate funda●as etiam hinc demonstrabit impiae 〈◊〉 audaciae , quod & adversus eos quae tanta notitiae mole firmatae sunt , fese erigere non praetermisit . Aug. ep . 48. ad Vincent . contra Donat ▪ & Rogat . b In hac Germani text●s pervestigatione , satis perspicue inter omnes constat , nullum argumentum esse certius ac famius , quam antiquorum probatorum codicum latinorum fidem &c. sic Sixtus in praefat . Pro Edit . vulg . c. 21. p. 99. Bell. deverb● Deil. 2. c. 11. p. 120. a See Greg. Mor. l. 19. c. 13. b Thus he testifies ▪ Com in Esa. c. 6. in these words . Vnde & Paulas Apost . in Epist. ad Heb. quam Latina consuetudo non recipit and again in c. 8. in these , In Ep. qu●e ad Heb●aeos scribitur , licet eam Latina Consu● etudo inter Canoincas Scripturas no recipiat . ) &c. * Contra Parm●a . l. 5. in Prin. Irenaeus l. 3. c. 3. Bellarm. de ve●bo Dei l. 4. c ▪ 11. a Pag. 209. b Charity Mistaken cap. 8. Pag● 75. c Pag. 211 ▪ d Pag. 212 ▪ e Pag. 250 ▪ f Pag. 246. g Pag. 246. h Sub. Leon. ●0 . Sess. 11. i Cap. 13. v. ● . k Cap. ult . v. 18. l Pag. 122. m Mar. 16. 18. n Ioan. 16. 13. o In his Sermons . Serm. 2. pag. 50. p Pag. 150. q Ioan. c. 16. 13. &c. ●4 . 16. r Pag. 151. 152. s Epist. 118. t Lib. 4. de . Bapt. c. 24. u Lib. 10. de Gene ●i ad liter . cap. 23. w Serm. 14. de verbis Apost . c. 18. x See Protocoll . Mon●●ch . edit . 2. p. 307. y Lib. 1. cont . Crescon . cap. 32. & 34. z De ●nit . Eccles . c. 19. a De Bapt. cont . Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. b Hom. 4. c De Sacra Script . p. 678. d ●p . 119. e Instit. l. 4. Cap. 2 , f Cent. Ep. Theol. ep . 74. g In Assertionib . art . 36 , h Tract . 1. c. 2. Sect. 14. after F. i Cap. 1. v. 4. k Chark in the Tower disputation , the 4. daies conference . l Fox Act. & Mon p. 402. m The Confession of Bohemia in the Harmony of Consessions pag. 253. n Tract . 3. Sect. 7. vnder m. n. 15. o In his answer to a Popish pamphlet p. 68 p Vid. Gul. Reginald . Calv. Turcis . lib. ● . c. 6. q Pag. 113. 114. Motton in his Treatise of the kingdome of Israel . p. 94. r Pag. 121. s Pag. 122. t Comment . in Mat. c. 16. u Pag. 123. w Pag. 253. x A moderate examination &c. c. 1. paulò post initium . y Pag. 126. a Pag. 241. b P. 215. c Pag. 75 ▪ d Pag. 97. e Mat. 16. f Ioan. 14. g Ioan. 16. h 1. Tim. c. 3. i Ephes. 4. k Pag. 151. 153. l Deutil . cred . cap. 8. a Prov. 16. 33. b Prov. 16. 10. c Prov. 21. 1. d Mat. 18. 20. e Mat. 2. 7. f Mat. 25. 2. g Mat. 28. 20. h Luk. 10. 16. i Heb. 13. 17. k Ephes. 4. 11. l 1. Tim. 3. 15. m Mat. 18. 17. n Mat. 7. 8. o Ia. 1. 5. p Isay. 59. 21. a Luk. 12. 48. b 6. Heb. 11. a 1. Cor. 11. 28. b 1. Cor. 14. 15. 16. 26. a De Corona Militis c. 3. & 4. Where having recounted sundry unwritten Traditions then observed by Christ●ans , many whereof , by the way , ( notwithstanding the Councell of Trents profession , to receive them and the written word with like affection of Piety ) are now rejected and neglected by the Church of Rome : For example Immersion in Baptism ; Tasting a mixture of milke and honey presently after ; Abstaining from Bathes for a weeke after ; Accounting it an impiety to ●ray kneeling on the Lords day , or between Easter and Pentecost : I say , having reckoned up these and other Traditions in the 3. chapt . He addes another in the fourth , of the Veiling of Women ; And then addes , Since I find no law for this , it followes that Tradition must have given this observation to custome , which shall gaine in time , Apostolique authority by the interpretation of the reason it . By these examples therefore it is declared , that the observing of unwritten Tradition , being confirmed by custome , may bee defended . The perseverance of the observation being a good testimo●y of the goodnesse of the Tradition . Now custome even in civill affaires where a Law is wanting , passes for a law . Neither is it materiall whether it be grounded on Scripture , or reason ; seeing reason is commend●tion enough for a law . Moreover if law be grounded on reason , all that must be law , which is so grounded — A quocanq productum — Whosoever is the producer of it . Doe ye thinke it is not lawfull , Omni fideli , for every faithfull man to conceive and constitute ? Provided he constitute only what is not repugnant to Gods will , what is conducible for discipline and available to salvation ? seeing the Lord sayes , why even of our selves , judge yee nor what is right ? And a little after , This reason now demand ▪ saving the respect of the Tradition , — A quocunque Traditore ce●se●ur , nec auctorem respiciens sed Auctoritatem : From whatsoever Tradition it comes ; neither regard the Author but the Authority . b Hier. * Per●on . a Cap. 3. n. 3. b Pag. 216. c Pag ▪ 24● . e Pag. 216. f Pag. 216. g Pag. 216. h 2. 2 , q. 1. Art. 8. k Pag. 235 , 215. l 2 , 2. q. 1. art . 8. ad 6 : m Pag. 231. n De Pe●cat . Orig. lib. 2. c. 22 ▪ p Pap. 235. q Heb. 11. 6. r Pag. 35● s Pag. 255. t Pag. 167. u Pag. 27. w Pag. 150. x Pag. 151. y Pag. 241. z Pag. 211. 213 ▪ 214. a Pag. 234. b Pag. 234. c Pag. 221 ▪ d Acts 20. 2● ▪ e Pag. 244 ▪ f Pag. 225 ▪ 223. g Pag. 223 ▪ h Pag. 223 ▪ i Pag. 237. k In his defence . page 330. l Lib. de Heres . in 69. m Aug. ep . ●8 . a This perswasion is no singularity of mine , but the doctrine which I have learn't from Divines of great learning and judgement , Let the Reader be pleased to peruse the seaventh booke of Acontius de Stratag . Satanae . And Zanchius his last Oration delivered by him after the composing of the discord between him and Amerbachius , and he shall confesse as much . a A. or . part . 1● . 5. b Cont. 2. ● . 10. n. 10. c Moral . quaest . Tr. 22. c. 2. n. 34. d I● 2. 2. qu. 2. Art. 3. Dub. Vit. e Instruction du Chrestien Lecon premiere . f Ch. 3. Consid. ● §. 5. p. 119. g 2. 2. dis . 1. ● . 2. p. 4. in sin . Lib. 3. c. ● . a Orat. 32. b Epist. 8 ▪ 1. Point . The nature of Schisme . c 2. 2. q. 39. art ▪ in corp . & ad 3. d Lib. 1. de●id . & Symb. cap. 10. e Quest. Evangel . ex Mat. q. 11. f Vbi supra . h Heres . 68. i Lib. 1. cont . Parmen . 2. Point . The grievousnesse of Schisme . l Supra . art . 2. ad 3. m Hom. 11. in ep . ad Epk. o Lib. cent . Parmen . p Lib. de vera Relig. cap. 6. q Cont. Donatist . l. 1. cap. 8. r Ibid. lib. 2. cap. 6. s De serm . Dom. in monte c. 5. t Epist. 204. u Cont. advers . Leg. & Prophet . l , 2. cap. 17. w De gest . cum Emerit . x De side ad Pet. y Pag. 42. z Cont. Parm. lib. 2. cap. 62. ▪ a Cont. haeres . lib. 4. cap. 62. b Apud Euseb . Hist. Eccles . lib. 6. 3. Point . Perpetuall visibility of the Church . c Apolog. part , 4. cap. 4. divis . 2 , And in his defence printed Ann. 1571. Pag. 426. d In his exposition upon the Creed . Pag. 400. e Pro●os . 37. Pag. 68. f Ibid. in cap. 1● . Pag. 161. col . 3. g Ibid. in . cap. 11. Pag. 145. h Ibid. Pag. 191. i Fol. 110. & 123. k Answere to a counterfeit Catholique . Pag. 16. l In praefat . operū suorum . m In suo Acacatholico . volum . a. 15. cap. 9. p. 479● n Ep. 141. o Pag. 154. p Mat. 16. 18. q Pag. ●6 . r Pag 83. s In Psal. 30. Co● . 2. t Epist. 48. u S. Aug. de fide & Symbolo , c. 1. w In Psal. 101. x De ovib . cap. 1. y De Bapt. cont . Donat. z Lib. 3. cont . Parm. 4. Point . Luthe● and all that follow him are Schismatiques . a Pag. 68. b Georgi●● Milius in Augustan . Confess . art . 7. de Eccles. Pag. 137. c Benedict . M●rgenstern . tract . de Eccles . Pag. 145. d Conrad . Schlusselb . in Theolog. Calvinist . lib. ● , fol. 130 ▪ e Ep. 141. f In praefat . operum suorum . g Lib. 2. cont . Epist. Gaudent . c. 7. h Pag. 76. i Pag. 126. k Pag. 151. l Pag. 155. m Epist. 76 ▪ ad Mag. n Numb . 8 ▪ s Pag. 7● ▪ t 1. Cor. 5. 10. u Ep. 162. w Mat. 33. z Ep. 116. a Pag. 75. b Pag ▪ 151. c Pag. 155 ▪ d Pag. 221. e Pag. 151. f Ep. cont . Parmen . lib , 2 , 2 cap. 11. g Pag. 15● ▪ h Pag. 75. i Pag. 76. k Pag. ●0 . l Pag. 75. m Pag. 79. n Pag. 75. o Casu non voluntate in has turbas incidi Deum ipsum testor . p Act. & . mon. pag. 404. q Sleidan . lib. 16. sol . 232. r Sleid. lib. 13. fol. 177. s Luth. in colloq . mensal . t Act. mon. pag. 404. u Cowp . in his Chronicle . w Tract 2. cap. 2 , Sect. 11. subd . 2. x Pag. 81. 82 ▪ y Pag. 154. z Pag. 75. a Lib. 1. Cont ▪ Parm. b Tract . 1. Sect. 3. subd . 10. c Ep. 55. d Lib. 2 , Cont ▪ Parm. e Ep. 48. f De Bapt. lib. 5. c ▪ 1. g Pag. 20. h Pag. 81. i Pag. 155. k Advers . haeres . c. 27. l Pag. 124. m Pag. 105. n In his preface to his Bookes of Ecclesiasticall policy . Sect. 6. p. 28. o Pag. 131 ▪ p Tom. 2. Germ. Ien. fol. 9. & tom . 2. Witt. of anno 1562. de abrog . Miss . privat . fol. 244. q Tom. 5. An●ot . brevis . r Colloq . mensal . fol. 158. s Praefat. in tom . German . Ien. t De formula ●issae . u In parva Con●ess . w In orat . Germ. 12. de Luth. Vid. Tan. tom . 2. disput . 1. q. 2 dub . 4. n. 108. x Lib. 2. cont . Cresc . c. 7. y Ep. 164. z Vpon these words ad Tit. 3. H●ereticum hominem &c. a Mat. 18. b Luk. 10. 16. c Lib. 1. cont . Parm. d Hom. 11. in epist. ad Eph. e Rom. 1. 3● f Mat 23. v. 29. &c. 5. Point . Luther and the rest departed from the Roman Church . g Pag. 76. h Ibid. i Pag. 225. k De statu Eccles. Pag. 253. l Pag. 225. m Act. Mon. Pag. 628. n Ibid. o Tract . ● . cap 2. sect . subd . 3. p In serm . d● Assump . Mari● . q In epist. ad Bohemos . r De utreque specie Sacram , s In Cent. epist . Theol. Pag. 225. t Numb . 49. u Pag 7● . w Co●t . Parm. liv . 2. c. 3. Eusch. hist. l. 5 c. 24. Perron . Replic . 3. l. 2. c. See c. 1. §. 3. Casaubon . i● Ep. ad Card. Perron . Pag. 151. 155. a S. Cyprian : Ep. 63. In these words , S●quis de antecessoribus nostris , vel ●gnoranteivel simpliciter non hoc observavit , & tenuit quod nos Dominus facere exemplo & Magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati ejus de indulgentia Domini , venia concedi : nobis verò non potest ignosci , qui nunc à Domino admoniti & instructi sumus . b Wilfridu● , to Abbat Colman alleaging that he followed the example of his predecessors famous for holinesse ; and famous for miracles , in these words , De Patre vestr● Columba & sequacibus eius , quorum sanctitatem vos ●mitari & regulam ac praecepta caelestibus signis confirmata sequi perhibetis , possum respondere ; Quia multis in judicio dicentibus Domino quòd in nomine eius prophetaverint & daemonia ejecerint , & virtutes multas fecerint , responsurus sit Dominus , quia nunquam eos noverit . Sed absit ut de patribas vestris hoc dicam , quia iustius multo est de incognitis bonum credere quam malum . Vnde & illos Dei famulos & Deo dilectos esse non nego , qui simplicitate rusticâ sed intentione piâ Deum dilexerunt : Neque illis multum obesse Paschae talem reor observantiam , quandiù ●ullus advenerat qui ei● instituti perfectioris deoreta quae sequerentur , ostenderet . Quos uti credo , fi qui tunc ad eos Cathòlicus calculator adveniret , sic eius mo●ita fuisse secuturos , quomodoea quae noverant ac didicerunt Dei mandata , probantu● fuisse secuti . Tu autem & socij ●ui si audita decreta sedis Apostolicae , imo universalis Ecclesiae & haec literis sacris confirmata contemnitis , a●sque ulla dubietate peccatis . c Beda : lib. 3. Eccl. Hist. c. 25. Erasm. Ep. lib. 15. Ep. ad Gode schalcum . Ros. a 2. Cor. 10. b 2. Cor. 10. 5. c Heb. 11. d 1. Cor. 13. v. 12. e 2. Pet. 1. ● . 19. f Rom , 〈…〉 1. g Psal. 92. h Eccles. 19. 4. i Praescript . cap. 28. k Praesc . c. 21. & 37. l Praes . c. 21. m Lib. 3 〈◊〉 haeres . cap. 〈◊〉 n 〈…〉 o 1 Cor. 13. 13. p 2. 2. q. 39. 〈…〉 q ●ag . 1●6 . r Epist. 50. s De Vnit Eccles . cap. 6. t Cont. lit . Pe●il . lib. 1. cap. 104. u Anno 3●1 . ●u . 2 , Sp●nd . w De V●● . Eccle● ▪ 3. x Ep. 163. y Conc. super . gest . cum E●●rit . z De doct● . Chri●● . lib. 3. cap. 30. a Cont. Par● . l. 1. cap. 1. b 2 ▪ Ioan. 19. c Act. 15. 2● ▪ d Act. 20. 30. e Lib. adversus haer . c. 3● . f Dimi● . temp . cap. 5. h Ep. 57. ad Damas. i Lib. 1. Apoleg . k Ibid. lib. 3. l De obitu Satyri fratris . m Lib. 1 cp . 4. ad I●pera●ores . n Epist. 55. ad Cornel. o Epist. 52. p Lib. 3. cont . 〈◊〉 . ● . 3. q Ia Psal. cont . patrem Donati . r Ep. 162. s Praeser . cap. 36. t Epist. ad Pont. Rom u Epist. ad H●rmis . P. P. w Mat. 24. 35. x Praes●r . cap. 41. y In Millenario sexto Pag. 187. z See Adamum Tā●erum tom . 4. disp . 7. quaest . 2. du● . 3. & 4. a Dyer . fol. 234. term . Mich. 6. & ● . Eliz. b Sup. c. 5. c L. 3. c. 5. d L. 4. c. 43. e Contr. epist. Fundam . c. 4. f Praef. ad lib ▪ Periarchon . g Cont. Faust ▪ cap. 2. h Lib. 28. cont . Eaust , cap. 2. i Cap. 24. k Lib. de P●storib . c. 8. l Cant. ● . m Ep. 48. n Heb. 11. 6. The faith of Protestants wanteth Certainty . o 2. 2. 4. 5. ar . 3. in corp . q Ad 2. They want the second Condition of Faith : Obscurity . Their faith wants Prudence . r Cont. ep . Fund . c. 5. s Lib. de util . Cred. c. 14. t I● epist. co●t . Anah . ad duos Parocho● . to . 2. Germ. Witt. sol . 229. & 230. x Contra Donar . post collat . cap. 24. y Deut. c. 32. 31. Their faith wants Supernaturality . z Galat. 1. 7. Ad §. 1 a M. Hooker in his answer to Travers his supplication . — I have taught that the assurance of things which we believe by the word , is not so certain as of that we perceive by sence . And is it as certaine ? Yes I taught , that the things which God doth promise in his word are surer unto us then any thing we touch , handle or see . But are we so sure and certain of them ? If we be , why doth God so often prove his promises unto us , as he doth by arguments taken from our sensible experience ? We must be surer of the proofe then the thing proved , otherwise it is no proofe . How is it that if ten men doe all looke upon the Moone , every one of them knowes it as certainly to bee the Moone as another : but many believing one and the same promises all haue not one and the same fullnesse of perswasion ? How falleth it out that men being assured of any thing by sence , can be no surer of it then they are ? whereas the strongest in faith that liveth upon the earth , had alwaies need to labour , and strive , and pray , that his assurance concerning heavenly and spirituall things may grow , increase , and be augmented . P. 1. C. 2. § 14. P. 2. C. 5. §. 32. Ch. 5. §. 41. Hierom de scrip . Eccle. tit . Fortunatianus . b It is confessed by Baronius Anno. 238. N. 41. By Bellarm . l. 4. de R. Pont. c. 7. § Tertia ratio . c Confessed by Baronius An. 258. N. 14. & 15. By Card. Perron . Repl. l. 1. c. 25. d Vide Con. Cartho apud sur . To. 1. e Bell. l. 2. de Con. c. 5. Aug. ep . 48. & lib. 1. de Bapt. c. 13 , Bell. l. 2. de Con. c 5. § 1. Canisius in Initio Catech. Sept. die 14. Rom. 11. In Dial. cunt . Tryphon . Lib. 3 cap. 2. Or this reply to King Iames. C. 2. §. 32. Calv. ubi sup●a . Ruffin . in vers . hist. Eccl . Eus. l. 5. c. 24. Euseb. hist. Eccl. l. 5. c. 24. Kuffin . b. c. 24. Iren. l. 3. c. 3. 1. Booke ▪ 〈◊〉 25 Euseb. hist. Eccl. l. 5. l. 22 ▪ Iren. apud Euseb. hist. Eccl. l. 5. c. 26. Conc. Antioch . c. 1. Conc. Const. c. 7. Conc. Eph. p. 2. act . ● . Euseb. hist. Eccl. l. 5. c. 24. Hieron . in script . Eccl. in Polyer . Exod. 12. Hieronym , ubi supra . Euseb. hist. Eccl. l. 5. c. 23. Beda in frag . de Aequinoctio . ve●nali . * Can. 2● . * In his Letter to Casaubon towards the end . * In ep . ad . Episcopos in Africa● Where he cleerely shewes that this question was not a question of faithe by saying , The C●uncello● Nice was celebrated , by occasion of the Arrian heresy and the difference about Easter . In so much 〈◊〉 they in 〈…〉 and M●sopotamia , did ●●ffer herein from us , and kept this feast on the same day with the I●wes : But thankes be to God ▪ an agreement was made , as concerning the Faith , so 〈◊〉 concerning this holy 〈◊〉 . a You doe ill to translate it , the Principality of the Sea Apostolique , as if there were but one : whereas S. Austine presently after speaks of Apostolicall Churches , in the plurall number ; and makes the Bishops of the , joynt Commisioners for the judging of Ecclesi●sticall causes . b The words of the Decree ( which also Bellarmine l , 1. de Matrim c. 17. assures us to have bin ●erm'd by S. Austine ) are these . Si qui ( Africani , ) ab Epis●●pis provocandum putaverint , non nisi ad African● provocent Concilia , vel ad Primates provinciarum suarum . Ad transmarina autem , qui putaverit appellandum , à nullo intra Africa● in Communionem suscipiatur . This Decree is by Gratian most impudently corrupted . For whereas the Fathers of that Councell intended it particularly against the Church of Rome , he tels us they forbad Appeales to All excepting only the Church of Rome . 〈…〉 a Hierom. Cont. Lucif●rianos . b In Theodoret . Hist. 16. c. l. 2. c In ep . 48. 〈◊〉 Vincentium . d Convnenitorij . lib. 1. c. 4. e In vita Naziauz f In Orat. Arian . & 〈◊〉 . g To. ● a Cant. 2 , 4. b 1. Ioan. 3. v. 16. c De mendac . cap. 6. d Mat. 6 e Math. 10. 17. f In his true difference &c. Part. 4. pag. 168. & 369. g Cent. 3. cap. 6. Col. 1●7 . h Chap. 5. Hu● . 9. i Eccl. 3. 27. k Pag. 112. l Pag. 81. m Ps. 57. 6. n Pag. 126. o Ad lit . Petil. l. 2. cap. 10● . p Contra Cresc , lib. 1. cap. 21. q Pag. 7● . Bellar. Contr. Barcl . c. 7. In 7. c. resutare con●tur Bard●verba illa Romuli . Veteres illos Imperotores Constantium Valentem & Caeteros non ideo toleravit Ecclesia quod legitimè successissent , sed quod illos sine populi detrimento coercere non po●erat . Et miratur hoc idem scripsisse Bellarminum . l 5. de Pontif. c. 7. Sed ut magis miretur , sciat hoc idem sensisse S. Th●m●m . 2. 2. 〈◊〉 . 12 art . 2. ad 1. ●●bi dicit Ecclesiam tolerasse ut sideles obedirent Iuliano Apostatae , qui●i● suinovitate nondum habebant vires ●ōpescendi Principes terrenos . Et posi●a , Sanctus Gregorius decit , nullum adversus Iuliani persecutionem fuisse remediu● praeter lachrimas , quoniam non habebat Ecclesia vires , quibus illius tyrannidi resistere posset . * I● Problem . 15. & 16. Lib. 5. prope initium . Lib. 2. c. 3. Cont. lit . Petil . l. 2. 〈…〉 ▪ Chap. 1. §. 4. c. 3. §. 53. & ●libi . 
A62548	----	A treatise of religion and governmemt [sic] with reflexions vpon the cause and cure of Englands late distempers and present dangers· The argument vvhether Protestancy is less dangerous to the soul, or more advantagious to the state, then the Roman Catholick religion? The conclusion that piety and policy are mistaken in promoting Protestancy, and persecuting Popery by penal and sanguinary statuts. Wilson, John, M.A. 1670 Approx. 1421 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 350 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A62548 Wing T118 ESTC R223760 99834042 99834042 38521 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A62548) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 38521) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1840:01) A treatise of religion and governmemt [sic] with reflexions vpon the cause and cure of Englands late distempers and present dangers· The argument vvhether Protestancy is less dangerous to the soul, or more advantagious to the state, then the Roman Catholick religion? The conclusion that piety and policy are mistaken in promoting Protestancy, and persecuting Popery by penal and sanguinary statuts. Wilson, John, M.A. [36], 614, 34, [8] p. s.n.], [London : Permissu superiorum. An: Dom: M.DC.LXX. [1670] Attributed by Wing to Peter Talbot. Place of publication from Wing. With marginal notes. P. 32 (second sequence) is misnumbered 34. 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Church and state -- Great Britain -- Early works to 1800. Protestantism -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2004-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-02 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Rachel Losh Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Rachel Losh Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TREATISE OF RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT WITH Reflexions vpon the Cause and Cure of Englands late distempers and present dangers . THE ARGVMENT VVhether Protestancy be less dangerous to the soul , or more advantagious to the State , then the Roman Catholick Religion ? THE CONCLVSION That Piety and Policy are mistaken in promoting Protestancy , and persecuting Popery by penal and Sanguinary statuts . Permissu Superiorum . An : Dom : M.DC.LXX . TO THE MOST ILLVSTRIOVS PRINCE THE DVKE OF BVQVINGHAM &c. May it please your Grace . THE inconsiderat censures of half witted Critiks have canonized the custom of dedicating books to great persons ; at least they have so extenuated the crime , that I despair not to obtain your Graces Pardon for my presumption of prefixing your name to this Treatise , without your consent or knowledge . But if the general custom be not a lawful excuse for my ambitious solicitation of your Graces patronage , I must transfer the fault from my self the Author , and lay it on the Argument of my book , which is so proper for a person of your Graces high birth , profound judgment , and publick trust , thus without violence to the work ; it could hardly be offerd to any other : The Argument , My Lord , of this Book , is Liberty of Conscience , which is the most reasonable o● all liberties ; it is the spiritual birthright of our souls , and the only human prerogative that cannot be forc't or forfeited . Though our selves be slaves , our thoughts are free , and so much our own , that none but the searcher of hearts can know them . God himself doth not vse violence : against our opin●●ns ; when he commands us ●o change them , he doth not compell us by rigor and penalties , but convinceth us by reason and miracles . My Lord , Princes are called Gods in the Scripture , and therfore ought to imitat divin per●●●tions . How much your Grace doth excell in this perfection of being avers from compelling mens Consciences , is so notorious , that any man may without flattery ( the common vice of Epistles Dedicatory ) publish and print your vertues . In this one of patronizing Liberty of Conscience , are so many comprehended , that did I vndertake to enumerat ▪ and explain them , this short Epistle must have bin a vast volum : It s an eminent part of Religion to propagat and persuade it by reason : Its Charity , to consider and commi●erat other mens capacitys , how capricious soever 〈◊〉 prudence to proportion the laws to tender Consciences . On the contrary , the zeal of persecution , is but a Cloa● of ambition for men of one persuasion to exclude all other● from places of profit , trust , and honor , wherof the Zealots would never be thought worthy , if such ( as the penal laws exclude ) did conform to the Church of England . And when any one doth becom a conformist , none is more sorry for his Conversion then they that pretended to design and effect it by persecution ; because the number of Proselits doth diminish the profit , and destroy the projects they had of begging Recusants fines and forfeitures . Your Genious and generosity , My Lord , are so much above these base , and destructive ways , that you are becom the refuge of all persons afflicted for their Conscience . To be popular vpon this score , and to be the patron of so numerous and conscientious a party , as it is the effect of your Wisdom and vertue , so it is a just cause for your Prudent Prince to confide in your Ministery , and to countenance your popularity . I do acknowledge , My Lord , that in som districts of the Church of Rome , men are punished for their Conscience or contumacy , by a Court of Iustice , called the Inquisition . How worthy the Inquisition is of imitation , I leave to the Judgment of others : But this I do maintain in my book , that our penal and Sanguinary statuts are much more severe and vnreasonable then the Canon law , wherupon the Inquisitors Sentences are grounded . 1. Because the Canons against Innovators of Religion , are almost as ancient as Constantin the first Christian Emperor . 2. They seemed so conscientious and convenient to all his Catholick Successors , and other Soveraigns , that they have incorporated into the laws of their Dominions , the Canons , wherby the Inquisitors are directed to punish heresies , or pretended reformations of Religion ; and therfore the first Protestant Reformers in England durst not publish their doctrin vntill these statuts against heretiks had bin repeald by Act of Parliament 1. Edu . 6.3 . the Inquisitors pretend not to act by human commission against mens opinions ; they proceed as spiritual Pastors , and the Apostles Successors , and therfore endeavor to reduce the obstinat Nonconformists by producing thousands of learned and lawful witnesses to proue , that the Roman faith is built vpon the very same Apostolical revelations reasons and miracles , wherby the primitive Church and the Catholick world had bin converted from Paganism to Christianity . But our English penal and Sanguinary statuts punish men for adhering to the ancient and authentick Religion of Christendom , and for not embracing a new interpretation of Scripture , for which there is no credible testimony , or proof , that it is the Apostolical ; neither is there as much as a pretence of any miracles to confirm Protestancy , or that monstrous Shee-supremacy , which was imposed vpon men , only to make An Bullens daughter Queen of England , and to exclude the right heirs and now reigning family from the Crown . Notwithstanding this great disparity , My Lord , between the severity of the Inquisition , and of our penal statuts , J wish both equally excluded from this Monarchy ; and that no compulsion be used against Conscience , but that every one be left to choos his own Religion , according to his capacity ; it being likely that none will have a greater care of saving any mans soul , then himself , who is more concerned therin , then any other , whether Prince , Parliament , or Pastor . That God may inspire into every soul that one faith without which none is saved , ought to be the only common prayer imposed vpon us ; for that by this vniformity of prayer every man is left to his own Inquisition , which is much more agreable to our genious then that of Spain ; and more likely to make us agree amongst our selves , then any penal or Sanguinary statuts ; all which I humbly submit to your Graces Iudgment , begging your Pardon for this trouble , and your protection for this Treatise . Your Graces most obedient and most humble servant IOHN WILSON . THE PREFACE . THE end which most Authors propose to themselves in writing Prefaces , is , to incline m●n to read their books : but the books are now so many , and of such groat busks , that even the Prefaces are not perused . Notwithstanding this superfluity and surfeit of books , I have ventured to add this one to the number , not without hopes that the Title will invite men to read the Preface , and perhaps the Preface may persuade them to read the Book . For , Religion and Government , being the two things wherin mankind is most concerned ( the one being the ground of everlasting happiness , the other of temporal prosperity ) and I having vndertaken to direct men to the best Religion , ( wherof depends the best Government ) the Conscience of some , and the curiosity of others will furnish me with Readers . Some Raylers I must expect ▪ to have , because I endeavor to demonstrat that the Crown may lawfully seise on the Church Revenues ; but I am content to b●●●ld at , so the commonwealth be not rallied out of so necessary a support . And least J should be thought too partial ●o my own Religion , I desire but a tol●ration for it , as I do for all other Christian profession● albeit to obtain this toleration for the Catholick I am forc't to compare it with the protestant , and to prove th●● no Religion is so conscientious , or so convenient as the Roman . The truth of this may ●●●ily be discerned by a Comit●e of the layty , if publik conferences of Religion be permitt●d in English ; And truly 〈…〉 Scriptures are permitted to be read and interpreted by every English lay man , J se● not why the layty may not judge of Controversies , and confer●●ces of Religion ; and according 〈◊〉 they find the interpretations of every Congregation consistent with the word of God , grant or not grant liberty of Conscience . There are few who 〈…〉 often heard how pressingly a●●●ertinently som of the wisest members of Parliament have spoke for Liberty of Conscience in the late sessions ; how they made it appear , that our decay of trade , and our fall of rents ( wherof Merchants and Land-lords do so much complain ) is wholy occasioned by the severity of our laws against Recusants , and nonconformists ; for , what credit or security can Merchants or Tradesmen have in England , when their stock and substance , may be legaly confiscated , whensoever they refuse to take an oath , or frequent a Church , contrary to their conscience ? what commerce or correspondence can we expect from beyond the Seas , when he that this day is an able Banquier amongst vs , to morrow must turn Bankrupt , if he will not contrefait himself a Conformist . The Tenants Cattle and Corn may be seised vpon ( and by consequence the Landlord deprived of his Revenue ) whensoever a ceremonious Parson , or an officious Church-warden , or a malicious neigbor will inform , that they come not to the common Prayer , or Communion ; so that the Nonconformists being two parts of England , in a few years two parts of the Kingdom will be destroyed . If our penal statuts against Non-conformists , did make this Monarchy as peaceable as they make it poor , perhaps som Polititians might think it advisable to continue them . But seing it is impossible to govern an empoverish't multitude without a standing Army ( which England will hardly brook ) and that Religion persecuted makes Rebellion plausible , all disinteressed persons may with reason admire , that the Bishops themselves do not Press and pray for liberty of conscience . For , though they should be so short-sighted as not to foresee future inconveniencies , yet they cannot be so insensible as to forget the former effects of persecutiō . And they will find great difficulty in persuading even the most devoted to their own calling , that the same cause will not produce in 70. the same effects we have felt since 40. If they imagin that their spiritual censures will prevail against the temporal power of a discontented multitude , they must maintain ( contrary to late experience ) that God will work Miracles to support the Church of England against Presbyterian sectaries . § As for the Kings restauration I confess it looks like a Miracle , but why our English Bish●ps should attribut so great a blessing rather to Gods will of countenancing their strange caracter , then to his will of continuing lawful Monarchy , or of manifesting the late Kings innocency , or of rewarding the constancy , and of relieving the indignity of the Cavaleer party , can never be vnderstood by any that knows the grounds of our Protestant Episcopacy , and how it was raised by Q. Elizabeth rather to exclude the succession of the Stevards from the Crown , then to establish a succession of true Bishops in the Church . There is much more reason to think that his Majesties restauration was decreed by God in order to the performance of his Declaration at Bredà for liberty of conscience , then in order to the non-performance of so publick and solemn a promise . And albeit I cannot say that our desired peace will be so absolutly secured by liberty of conscience in England , as it is in other Countries by the Tenets and vniformity of the Roman Religion : yet is it manifest , that persecution for promoting Prelatick Protestancy will rather increas our confusions , then work our conversion ; not only becaus the non-conformists , are the more numerous party , and by consequence can hardly be forc't to obey laws against their Consceince ; but also becaus it is confessed by the very Prelaticks , that Christians may be saved though they do not conform to the Church of England ; nay they must grant , that such as do conform to its doctrin and disciplin , may be damned for so doing , becaus it is a fallible ( and by consequence for ought they or any one knows a fals ) Church . That a Church believed by the members therof to be infallible , and the only way of salvation , doth persecute such as revolt from its faith and obedience is thought by some a rational ( though by me a rigorous ) practise : but that the Church of England , wherof it is a fundamental Article , that the whole visible Church , or all Christian Congregations ( and by consequence it self ) hath erred , or may err in doctrin , should persecute such as revolt from it , or men of a contrary persuasion , for having a stronger faith , grounded vpon Christs promis of never forsaking vs , and a better opinion of Gods providence , and of their own Churches doctrin , seems not agreable to the rules of the Ghospel , nor of human prudence . For , whether the Protestants sectaries persuasion of their own privat spirits infallibility , or the Roman Catholicks belief of their general Councells infallibility , be true or fals , the Church of England will never be able to persuade or prove , that any Christians ought to be persecuted by penal and sanguinary statuts , for not exchanging that assurance of Divine faith which themselves are persuaded they have , for a bare Prelatick probability of the same faith ; or for a confessed possibility of being mistaken in the doctrin of salvation . Seing therfore of two evils the least ought to be chosen , and that if liberty of conscience be an evil , it is a less one then persecution , becaus it will cause less dangers and disturbances in the Nations , then laws which force the Prelatick probability , and vniformity : It seems to be against the rules as well of piety as of policy , to continue the penal and sanguinary statuts in favor of the confessedly fallible Church of England . And when I plead for liberty of conscience in England for Presbyterians and Fanaticks , I hope it will not be ill taken that I beg the same freedom and favor for Roman Catholicks , especially if I prove ( as I have vndertaken ) that our principles are not only more ●ound in point of Christiatity , but more safe in order to the government , then any others . And though it be a common and true saying , that the greatest Clerks are not the wisest men , and by consequence , not so fit to prescribe rules for governing as wordlings that are not Divines , or as wranglers that are Lawyers ; yet I humbly conceive that when the misfortunes of a government proceed not from want of judgment or resolution in the Councel , but from want of faith , or ( which is the same ) from an acknowledged vncertainty of faith in the Church , Catholick Divines ( seing we are unanimous in matters of Christian belief and do persuade the best part of Christendom that our Church is infallible in the same ; and if heard , we doubt not to prevail with these British Nations also to credit vs in that important point , however improbable , it may seem to them at first sight ) I hope this supposed , we Catholick Divines may without offence pretend to be better able to shew and salve the spiritual sore of this state , then any Protestant Statists or schoolmen , who want sufficient unity , and assurance of faith in themselves , to make their cure and care credible to others . Seing therfore the foundation not only of Christian Religion , but of a peaceable government , doth consist in a firm persuasion of the people governed , that the doctrin professed and established by Law is infallible ▪ and of Divine inspiration , not of human invention ; and by consequence that the decrees and determinations of the State ( which in all Governments ought to be proportioned to the doctrin of its Church ) are lawfull , and intended for the common good ; not designs , or devices to fool the multitude , feed the ministery , or favor the soveraign ; and that not only evidence of falshood , but vncertainty of truth , in matters of Christianity , must needs render the Church and State that profess such an vncertainty , so weak and contemptible , that the subjection to either cannot be otherwise secured then by the force and fear of a standing Army ; and that such a subjection doth savor more of a Turkish slavery then f●●a Christian Society , or of a civil subordination to publick authority , and ( therfore ) is the cause of continual discontents , and frequent rebellions ; and that no Church but the Roman Catholick , doth as much as pretend , or can persuade , it s own infallibility in matters of Religion ; seing I say , all this is manifest by reason , and our wofull late experiences , I question not but that the Parliament will be pleased to take in good part this humble proposal of saving our souls ; and of setling this state , by the doctrin of the Roman Catholick Church , and by the Revenues of the Protestant Prelatick Clergy ; especially if the corruptions of Scripture , and falsifications of Councells and Fathers , wherwith I do charge that Clergy ( and wherby alone they maintain their Protestancy ) be cleerly demonstrated in this Treatise , and patiently heard in a publick Trial. It 's now above a Century of years since the great Statsmen of England have employed their wit and industry , in devising how to setle Monarchy vpon Protestancy ; but ( vnder favor ) we Catholick Divines do shew ( and all Protestants may suspect by the success ) that in so great an affair they have proceeded like vnskillfull Architects , that busy themselves altogether in proportioning and adorning the superstructures , without inquiring into the strength and solidity of the foundation : They mistook sand for stone , fals translations for true Scripture , a lay ministery for a lawful Clergy , a temporal soveraignty for a spiritual supremacy : They layd for the first stone of their New fabrik , a sworn spiritual rebellion ( the oath of supremacy ) against the chief Prelat and common Father of all Christendom S. Peters Successor . No marvail then if this fundation yeelded , and the whole fabrik fell to the ground in our late distempers ; for , by an evident parity of reason it must be concluded , that it is as lawful for Protestants to depose Kings , as Popes , by vertue of their privat and arbitrary interpretations of scripture . If notwithstanding the legal and long possession or prescription , of a suprem spiritual superiority , the Bishop of Rome may ( by the principles and prerogative of Protestancy ) be reformed , and reduced to be only Patriarck of the West , or a privat Bishop ; what temporal soveraignity can be absolute or secure among Protestants ? The same arguments , the same texts of Scripture , the same spirit , the same interpretations of God's Word , that Luther , Calvin , Cranmer and all other Protestants objected against the Popes supreme spiritual authority , did the Presbyterians , and other Protestants press ( by an vnanswerable paralel ) against the late King 's temporal Soveraignty . Wherfore it is much to be feared that notwithstanding the extraordinary prudence of our government , we shall be frequently involved in as great troubles and dangers , as formerly ; and that the privat spirit , and English Scripture ( interpreted by Protestants ) will prevail against lawfull Monarchy , whensoever the like circumstances do concurr ; viz. a Zealous Parliament , a mild King , a covetous Clergy , a stubborn people , and resolute Rogues to lead them , and declare to the Multitude their own strength , as wel as the fundamental principles and priviledges of all Protestant Reformations . In Catholick Commonwealths all these circumstances do meet ( the principles of Protestancy only excepted ) and yet the Catholick subjects remain immoveable in their obedience in regard of the credit and authority of their Church and Clergy , which in privat confessions , and publick exhortations continualy inculcat , how inconsistant any privat or arbitrary interpretation of Scripture ( and by consequence any pretext of superiority over the Soveraign ) is , with the Christianity and obsequiousnes of Catholick faith ; and how principal a part it is of that ●aith to believe not only that the Church is infallible in its doctrin , but also that temporal Soveraigns are Gods Vice-regents , and absolut in their government , and therfore as such , ought to be revered , and obeyed . And when ( by reason of heavy taxes , or other such accidents ) the fire of sedition somtimes breaks forth among Catholicks , it is ( generally speaking ) suddenly quencht by the authority and severity of the Clergies Censures against the Authors , or by the devotion and reverence which even the most Irreverent of our profession exhibit to the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar , that is shewn ( vpon such emergencies ) to the mutinous people , which ( notwithstanding their fury and madness ) immediatly fall down to adore their God and Redeemer ; and for respect of him ( whom they beleeve to be realy present ) are appeased or at least give ear to their Pastors reasons and exhortations , with more patience and better success then any Protestant people in the like occasions . Wherfore though we Catholicks should grant ( as we neither do , nor can ) that the Protestant or Prelatick reformation is as safe a way to Heaven , as the Roman Religion , yet methinks such Protestants as desire to live peaceably , or govern prosperously , ought to preferr Popery before Protestancy . That K. Henry 8. in the heat and height of an amourous passion was so blinded , that ( to satisfy his carnal lust ) he assumed and annexed a spiritual supremacy to a temporal Crown may be attributed to the fondness and fancies of love . That a Babe ( K. Edward 6. ) was taken with such a bable as that same supremacy , may be imputed to the tenderness of his age , and to the imprudence of his Vncle and Protector Somerset , who by promoting that Oath , and the Protestant reformation , put the Kingdom into a Babylonical confusion . That Dudley Duke of Northvmberland ( seing the Church and state so confounded ) did ground a title for the Lady Jane Grey , and for his own son to the Crown , vpon the principles and Zeal of Protestancy , is but the ordinary practise of Politians ; that the Lady Elizabeth did re●●ive her Fathers supremacy and the Protestant reformation , wherby alone shee could pretend to be legitimat ( against two acts of Parliament never yet repeald ) is not so blameable in her , as in them that but four years before , had by an vnanimous vote in both Houses declared An Bullens marriage voyd , and that same supremacy , and Protestancy to be heresy . That K. Iames did pardon and promote his mothers murtherers , and conform himself to that Religion wherby shee and himself had bin so long excluded from their right , was great clemency , or a cuning compliance , without which he covld hardly have compassed his ends , and restored the line of the Stenarts to the British Empire . That K. Charles 1. did endeavour by Ordinances and Laws to restrain and reduce the variety of Protestant opinions ( grounded vpon the liberty of interpreting Scripture ) to some kind of vniformity , and subordination to Princes and Prelats , had bin an act of great prudence if it had not shaken and shock't the very fundation of all Protestant Reformations , that consists in an arbitrary interpretation of the obscure Texts of Scripture , from which foundation and fountain necessarily floweth the priviledge of denying obedience to all civil and Ecclesiastical authority that commands any thing contrary to those interpretations of Scripture , wherby every privat person , or any leading men of the Protestant Congregations will be pleased to direct themselves , or guide others . That the Zealous and precise sort of Protestants did convene , and covenant against the King and Bishops , for endeavoring to deprive them of this their Evangelical liberty of the Reformation , was but a natural result of the same fundamental principle of Protestancy . That Oliver Cromwell by counterfaiting Zeal and piety , and by humoring the privat spirits and interpretations of Protestant Sectaries , did ruin his King , and rais himself from a mean subject , to be absolut Soveraign , needs not to be enumerated among the casualties , or favors of fortun , there being not any thing more feasible then to dethrone a Protestant Monarch by his own Religion ; because it is nothing but an arbitrary interpretation of Scripture , and by consequence gives such a latitud for justifying rebellion vpon the score of refining the reformation by a new sense of Scripture , that every Protestant ( without violating the principles , but rather sticking to the prerogative of Protestancy ) may embrace any more pleasing and popular sense of the Text , however so prejudicial it prove to his lawful Soveraign , or however contrary it be to the sense of Scripture established by law , or by acts of vniformity . But , that notwithstanding so many warnings and wars as we have had , so great and grave a Councel as the Parliament of England , should think fit to continue the same vnsuccessfull cours of setling Monarchy , the same statuts wherby Q. Elizabeth excluded the right heirs and now reigning family , the same fundamental Tenet of the Reformation wherby every subject is made interpreter of Scripture , and by consequence Iudge of his Soveraign , and of the Government ( which must be subordinat to Scripture ) is not only to me , but to the Christian world , the cause of greatest admiration . And becaus every Religion hath some incomprehensible mysteries , I will number this among those of Protestancy ; but withall must beg pardon for thinking that it is rather against , then above reason ; for , to grant the principle , wherupon the independency or Soveraignty of every Protestant subject is grounded ; and yet to make Acts of Parliament ( in favor of the Church of England ) against the same subjects independency , or Soveraignty , is a kind of contradiction . So discerning a people as the English , can hardly be hindred from seing the manifest connexion that is between the Protestant subjects liberty of interpreting Scripture , and the not submitting their judgments , or actions to any human laws or Government , if contrary to their own interpretations . And so Religious and scrupulous a people as they are , will not be easily persuaded , that an Act of Parliament is sufficient to dispense with their obligation and inclination of sticking to that fundamental Tenet of Protestancy . I confess that in some Countreys ( as in France ) the Protestant people are now kept in so great subjection , that they dare not go so far as the principles of Protestancy lead ; and in other more Northern Climats , they are of so dull and peaceable a constitution , that they want either curiosity to examin , or courage to assert the priviledges of the reformation ; and therfore are apt to submit their Iudgments ( by an implicit faith ) to the opinions of Luther , or Calvin , or of their own Clergy . But with us , where every one thinks his own spirit as divin , and his Iudgment as good , as that of Luther , or Calvin , or of the Bishops ; where the stoutness and stubborness of our nature makes us venture vpon any thing whe●her sacred or profane , where every Peasant is warranted by the law , to question the prerogative of his Prince , in such a Countrey I say , and in such a constitution of the Government , it is not to be expected , that men will be less contentious in the Church , then they are in the Courts ; nor content with less then with that supremacy of judicature allowed by the principles of Protestancy to be the spiritual-birth-right of every Protestant subject . These are some of the inconveniencies whervnto the government is lyable by the principles and profession of Protestancy ; and though I humbly conceive that nothing but liberty of conscience can content so many dissenting parties , yet I am of opinion that before such a liberty be granted , some previous conferences concerning Religion , ( like that of Hampton Court in K. James his reign ) be allowed , but without excluding from those Conferences Papists , or any party that will offer to give reason for their Religion . For , as to accept of a Bill of comprehension before men examin the consequences and qualifications of the Religions comprehended may breed greater confusion ; so to except any Christian Religion from being examined , doth argue that in our Conferences we consult not conscience . But it is to be feared , that education and interest ( the two greatest prejudices not only against truth , but against the examination therof ) will make the Bishops and their Bigots avers from any conferences of Religion , wherby their title to the churchs-livings may be questioned . They will pretend and preach , ●hat it is against the rules as well of piety as of policy to inquire into the truth of doctrin , or into the right of possession , after 100. years prescription ; But they do not consider , or at least would not have others consider , that the Roman Catholicks prescriptiō of 1000. years in England , and our Prelats legal possession of lands for the same space of years , was not judged by Q. Elizabeths Bishops , or Parliaments , a sufficient Plea against the pretensions of the Crown to the Church revenues , notwithstanding the Church ( then ) was thought to be infallible in doctrin ; and the revenues therof were first intended for , and annexed to the Prelats and preachers of the same Roman Catholick doctrin and Church . Now , if the Protestant Bishops think that the Catholick Bishops were legally and lawfully dispossessed of their revenues , and their Doctrin legaly and lawfully condemned , and changed by Luther , Calvin , Cranmer , or the Prelaticks interpretation of Scripture , confirmed by Act of Parliament ; how can they imagin to make the world believe that it is now either a sin or sacriledge , to be dispossessed themselves of the Church revenues , by an Act of Parliament , confirming as probable an interpretation of Scripture as theirs , or as that of Luther , or Calvin is ; especially seing they confess their doctrin fallible , and that the revenues were never intended ( by those that gave them ) for preaching or promoting any kind of Protestancy ? Doubtless this incoherency , and their backwardness in reasoning of Religion , will render their Zeal for the Church revenues , as much suspected , as their forwardnes in persecuting tender Consciences , hath renderd their persons odious . And that there may be no ground for them to work vpon , nor to doubt of the Roman Catholick Clergy's loyalty and sincerity in petitioning , and pressing for publick conferences of Religion , it will be found ( I doubt not ) in case any such security be desired , or valued , that we shall as readily now , as in Queen Maries reign , resign all the right we can pretend to the revenues of the Church , and ( as then ) bestow them vpon the Crown , for the use and ease of our Country . By this it may appear , that we have no design , but the duty of subjects , or the devotion of Christians , in desiring that the Protestant Clergys title be examined : But they deterr the illiterat layty from this necessary scrutiny , by often repeating the word Sacrilege , without declaring its signification . We know ( and so do they ) that it hath bin the ancient practise of God's Church , to contribut with all that is Sacred ( without the least fear or scruple of Sacriledge ) to the maintenance of the State , when the layty is so much empoveris'ht with wars and taxes , as we are both in England and Ireland . Wee see that in all Catholick Countreys the Clergy doth imitat the example of the ancient Church in the same practise . Why our English Bishops , Deans , and Chapters , ought to be exempted from so reasonable and general a custom , vnless it be that they are burthend with wives and Children , I do not vnderstand . But sure their having wives and Children can neither ●make their revenues more Sacred , nor ●heir Contributions more Sacriledge , on cases of publick necessity . As a ●ompetency of maintenance for themselves , and for their Childrens education and application to some honest Trades , is an act of Charity ; so to apply the rest of the Church revenues to publik uses , for soldiers , and seamen , and to the payment of the Crown debts , is not against Christianity . In the conclusion of this Preface I must endeavor to excuse the bulk of my book , and the positivenes of my Assertions . For the first , I could hardly draw into a narrower compass so transcendent a subject ; and yet I have placed in the end of this Treatise an Index , wherin the substance of the whole book is contained ; to the end every one may find out with ease any point he hath a mind to read . As to the positivenes of my assertions , most of them being articles of my faith , or deductions from my Creed , I could not but utter them in the Tone of our infallible Church . But becaus I speak to Protestants that condemn our infallibility , I attempt to demonstrat , their censure against the same is as rash , as they fancy our belief is ridiculous . J must also ingenuously confess , that it is part of my design , to diminish the authority of the Protestant and Prelatick writers ; but seing my arguments are taken out of their own writings , and are no other then their wilfull and vndeniable falsifications of Scripture and Fathers , I hope none that detests so horrid a crime , will condemn my Censure , or defend their credit . Whether I have bin faithfull in setting down their falsifications , I must submit to the Iudgment of my Readers , as also beg pardon for intermedling with so much of government as necessarily depends of Religion , and ought to be proportioned therunto ; our Protestant Statesmen , will not only pardon , but protect me , when they reflect vpon the impossibility there is of regulating the motions , or appeasing the mutinies of a body politik , by a faith so vncertain as that of the fallible Church of England ; or by a rule of Religion so applicable to rebellion , as the letter of Scripture is , when left to every privat mans arbitrary interpretation . THE TABLE . Part I. Of the Beginning , Progress and Principles in general : And of the Prelatick Church of England in Particular . HOw necessary a rational Religion is for a Peacable Government . Pag. 1. Wherein the Reasonableness of Religion Consists , Pag. 8. How dangerous it is for a Temporal Soveraign to pretend to a Spiritual Jurisdiction over his Subjects . Pag. 10. The Grounds of Peace , Piety , and Policy . Pag. 10. The Catholick World ever acknowledg'd the Bishop of Rome's Spiritual Jurisdiction over all Christians . Pag. 11. The same Religion which St. Gregory the great held , was by St. Augustine taught to our Ancestors . Pag. 19. Of the Author and beginning of Protestancy , and of Luther's Disputation and Familiarity with the Devil . Pag. 22. How weakly Protestants Excuse Luther's Conference with the Devil . Pag. 29. The Mass , a Visible and True Sacrifie , proved by the Councils and Doctors of the Church . Pag. 36. The Sacrifice of the Mass offered for the Dead . Pag. 37. Of the Principles and Propagation of Protestancy . Pag. 39. The Fundamental Principles of Protestancy . Pag. 43. Protestants affirm , that if a man have an Act of Faith , sin does not hurt him . Pag. 46. Protestants affirm that all Christians , Men and Women , are Priests by Baptism . Pag. 50. Of the Protestant Church of England in K. H. VIII's Reign Pag. 53. Henry the VIII . weary of Queen Catharine . Pag. 53. Anne Bullen's Incest and Leudness . Pag. 54. Henry the VIII's Tyranny . Pag. 56. Tyndal's Translation of the Bible abolish'd . Pag. 59. Of the English Religion and Reformers in K. Edw. VI's days . Pag. 60. The first Reformers of the Prelatick Protestant Church of England . Pag. 62. Cranmer a meer Cotemporiser , and of no Religion at all . Pag. 63. Who fram'd the 39 Articles . Pag. 64. Of the 39 Articles of the Church of England . Pag. 67. Protestant Bishops well pleas'd to see themselves Religiously Worship'd . Pag. 70. Protestants though they have chang'd their Form of Ordination yet cannot have a true Clergy , till they change also the Character of the Ordainers . Pag. 80. Of the Effects immediatly produc'd by the 39 Articles . Pag. 82. Dudely Earl of Warwick's Endeavours to have his Son to Reign after K. Edw. His Marrying him to the Lady Jane Gray . Pag. 83. Queen Mary's Troubles . Pag. 84. The Roman Catholicks willing Resignation of the Church Livings to the Crown . Pag. 86. An Act of Parliament in the first year of Q. Mary concerning the fraud and force of K. Henry the VIII's unlawful Divorce from Q. Catharine . Pag. 88. Other Effects of Protestancy , after it was reviv'd in England by Q. Elizabeth to exclude the Royal Family of the Stewards from the Crown . And of the Nullity of her Clergies Character and Jurisdiction . Pag. 95. Decreed in Parliament that any Natural Issue of Q. Elizabeths Body should enjoy the Crown after her Death , and so the Line of Stewards to be Excluded . Pag. 100. Reasons why Q. Elizabeth in her 44 years Reign could not make her Prelatick Clergy and Religion acceptable . Pag. 103 How Injurious Protestancy hath been to the Royal Family of the Stewards , and how Zealous they have been in promoting the same . Pag. 109. K. James the I. declared that Catholicks , and their Religion had no Hand in Gun-powder Treason . Pag. 112. Of K. Charles the First . Pag. 112. Part. 2. Of the Inconsistency of Protestant Principles with Christian Piety and Peaceable Government . THe foundation whereon all Reformations are built . Pag. 117. The Protestant evasion of the clearness of Scripture against Roman Catholick Doctrine , and also of the Invisibility of their own Church , Confuted : And the Incredibility of the suppos'd Change and Apostacy , prov'd by the difference of the Roman Catholick and Protestant Principles . Pag. 121 Protestants mistaken in the Canon of the Scripture maintain'd by the Church of England , and by Dr. Cousins Bishop of Duresin . Pag. 131. Dr. Couzins Exceptions and Falsifications against the Councel of Trent's Authority answer'd . Pag. 137. New Definitions , are not New Articles of Faith. Pag. 141. Protestants so grosly mistaken in their Letter and Translation of Scriptures , that they cannot have any Certainty of Faith. And are forc'd at length ( by their Principles ) to question the Truth of Scriptures , and of them who writ the Canonical Books thereof . Pag. 149. Particular Instances of Protestant Corruptions in the English Bible . Pag. 157. Protestant Interpretation is not the true Sense of Script . Pag. 163. Protestants Mistaken in the Ministry and Mission of their Clergy , in the Miracles of their Church , in the Sanctity and Honesty of their Reformers . Pag. 168. Calvin's Miracle . Pag. 180. Beza's Lasciviousness : He prefers his Boy Andibertus before his Girle Candida . Pag. 181. Protestants mistaken in the application of the Prophesies of Scripture concerning the Conversion of the Kings and Nations of the Gentils from Paganism to Christianity , foretold as an Infallible Mark of the True Church , and whereof the Protestant is depriv'd . Pag. 183. Calvin sends Ministers to Convert Gallia Antartica from Heathenism : And what success they had . Pag. 190. Protestants mistaken in the consistency of their Justifying Faith , with Justice , or Civil Government . Pag. 193. The Protestant Doctrine of Justifying Faith most dangerous and Damnable . Pag. 198. Protestants mistaken in the consistency of Christian Faith , Humility , Charity , Peace either in Church or State , with their making Scriptures , as interpreted by private Persons , or Fallible Synods , or fancied General Councils ( composed of all Dissenting Christian Churches ) the Rule of Faith , and Judge of Controversies in Religion . How every Protestant is a Pope , and how much also they are overseen in making the 39 Articles , or the Oath of Supremacy , a distinctive Sign of Loyalty to our Protestant Kings . Pag. 207. How the Fundamental Principles of Protestancy maturely examin'd and strictly followed , have led the most Learned Protestants of the World to Judaisme , Atheism , Arianisme , and Mahometanisme , &c. Pag. 222. The Protestant Churches of Poland , Hungary and Transilvania , deny the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity . Pag. 230. How the Indifferency , or rather Inclination of Protestancy to all kind of Infidelity is further demonstrated by the Prelatick Doctrine , and distinction of Fundamental and Not Fundamental Articles of Faith. The design of their fundamental distinction laid open . The Roman Catholick , the sole Catholick Church , And how it has the Authority of Judging all Controversy of Religion . Pag. 233. The Roman Catholick Church is a Competent and Impartial Judge of Controversies of Religion . Pag. 241. Of the Justice and Legality of our Roman Censures against Protestancy . Pag. 242. All Christians were never Judges of Religion , one Party always submitted to the Judgment of the Other that was in Obedience to , and in Communion with St. Peters Successor the Bishop of Rome . Pag. 247. Gods Veracity is deny'd by Protestancy , and by the Prelatick Distinction and Doctrine of Fundamental , and not Fundamental Articles of Faith. Pag. 251. Protestancy is Heresie . Pag. 254. Protestancy contradicts Gods Veracity . Pag. 255. The Infallibility of the Roman Catholick Church in Matters of Faith , prov'd against Protestants . Pag. 256. The Protestant Doctrine of Fundamentals Confuted . Pag. 257. The same further demonstrated and prov'd , that neither the Protestant Faith , nor the Faith lately Asserted in a Book call'd , Sure footing in Christianity , is Christian Belief . Pag. 260. The Resolution of Protestant Faith. Pag. 262. The Infallibility of the Church prov'd by Gods Veracity Pag. 268. Heresie Explain'd by Rebellion . Pag. 269. The Unreasonableness of them who pretend a private Spirit , and refuse to submit to the Authority of the Church , for want of Clearer Evidence than the Roman Catholicks hath of Gods Authority . Pag. 269. Reasons for Liberty of Conscience : And how much both Piety and Policy is mistaken in making Prelatick Protestancy the Religion of the State , by continuing and pressing the Sanguinary and Penal Statutes against the Roman Catholick Faith ; and the Act of Uniformity against Sectaries . Pag. 271. Queen Marys and the Inquisitions Severity against Protestancy , can be no President , or excuse for the Statutes against Popery . Pag. 283. Part 3. Containing a plain Discovery of the Protestant Clergys Frauds , and Falsifications , whereby alone their Doctrine is supported and made Credible . The Conscience and Conveniency of Restoring or Tolerating the Roman Catholick Religion , Demonstrated . THat either the Learned Protestants , or Roman Catholick Clergy are Cheats , and how every Illiterate Protestant may easily discern by which of the two Clergies he is Cheated : And therefore is oblig'd under pain of Damnation to examine so near a concern : And to renounce the Doctrine and Communion of that Church wherein he is Cheated . Pag. 287. With what Impudency and Hypocrisy Bishop Jewel and other Prelatick Writers began to maintain the Protestancy of the Church of England . And how they were blam'd for appealing to Antiquity by some of their own Brethren . Pag. 293. A Strange Expression of Mr. Hooker in favour of Bishop Jewel . Pag. 294. The Centurists and other Learned Protestants Confess that the Councils and Fathers Defended Worship of Images Transubstantion , Purgatory , &c. Pag. 295. How particularly the Protestant Clergy is Charg'd with Frauds and Falsifications in maintaining their Religion . Pag. 298. There can be no Reason to suspect the sincerity of the Roman Catholick Clergy in Matters of Religion : And that Protestancy cannot be maintain'd otherwise then by Impostures : Whereof there are such Evidences , that to give the Protestant Clergy any Credit in matters of Religion , is a sufficient Cause of Damnation . Pag. 300. Of Edward VI's Protestant and Prelatick Clergys Frauds , Falsifications , and Forms of Ordination ; their Hypocrisy , Incontinency , Atheism , &c. And whether it be fit to term them , and others like them Cheats , when they are Convicted of wilful false dealing in matters of Religion . Pag. 303. Of Thomas Cranmer , his Birth , Marriages , Treasons Cheats , Heresies , &c. And of Latimer and Ridley . Pag. 304. Of Hooper's , Rogers , Poynet , Bale and Coverdale's Hypocrisy and Impiety . Pag. 312. A Prophesy of Rogers's . Pag. 314. John Bale's account of his Education , and how he scarp'd out , the Cursed Character of the Horrible Beast by Marrying a Nun , &c. Pag. 315. Of Coverdale and his Bible . Pag. 317. A Discourse between Dr , Martin and the Arch-bishop [ Cranmer ] related by Fox . Pag. 320 Of the Protestant Clergy in Q. Mary's Reign , the same that afterwards founded Q. Elizabeths Church . Their Frauds , Factions , Cheats , and Changes of the English Protestant Religion , during their Exile in Germany . Pag. 326 Abominable frauds , amd wilful falsifications of the Protestant Clergy in Q. Elizabeths Reign , to maintain their Doctrine , set forth under the name of an Apology , and Defence of the Church of England . Pag. 332 The Protestant Clergy Convicted of falshood in their Apology concerning Communion under one kind . Pag. 334 How Jewel and the Church of England make the very same Holy Fathers they appeal'd to in other matters , wicked Hereticks , because they condemn'd Priests Marriage . Pag. 337 Bishop Jewel and his Associates wickedness in charging Cardinal Hosins , and all Catholicks , with a contempt of Holy Scripture , against their own knowledge after they had been admonished of the Imposture . Pag. 338 Falsifications and Frauds against the Bishop of Rom's Supremacy . Pag. 341 Frauds and fond Devises of the Protestant Clergy of England to deny and discredit the Sacrifice of the Mass. Pag. 343 Prelatick Falsifications and Corruptions of Scripture , to make the Pope Antichrist , And Succession of Bishops a Mark of the Beast . Pag. 346 Prelatick Falsifications , to prove that Popes may and have Decreed Heresy . Pag. 348 Prelatick Falsifications , to prove that Popes have insulted over Kings . Pag. 350 Prelatick Falsifications , to prove that St. Augustin the Apostle of our English Saxons , was an Hypocrite , and no Saint , as also to dicredit Catholick Writers . Pag. 351 Of the Protestant Clergy's Frauds , and Falsifications of Scriptures , and alterations of their XXXIX Articles of Religion , to make the People believe that they have true Priests and Bishops in the Church of England . Pag. 352 An Advertisement to the Reader concerning Bishop Jewel . Pag. 357 Examples of Learned Protestants converted to the Roman Catholick Religion , by observing the Frauds , and Falshoods of the Apology of Jewel , and of the Protestant Clergy , for the Prelatick Church of England . Pag. 359 Frauds , Follies , and Falsifications of John Fox his Acts and Monuments , and of his Magdeburian Masters in their Centuries , the little Sincerity of the English Church and Clergy in countenancing such false Dealing . Pag. 362 John Fox his Revelation . Pag. 368 The Foxian Kalender . Pag. 371 Wilful Falsifications committed by John Fox , in his Acts and Monuments . Pag. 374 Dr. Chark's Falsification of St. Augustin , and how he excuses Luther's Doctrine of the Lawfulness of Adultery and Incest . Pag. 379 Falsifications of Cranmer , and Peter Martyr , against Transubstantiation , and the Sacrifice of the Mass. Pag. 381 How some Protestant Writers in Q. Elizabeths time , seeing their Fellows were prov'd Falsifiers , waved the Testimonies of the Antient Fathers , and yet the other continu'd their former course of falsifying both Fathers and Councils . Pag. 384 Falsifications and Frauds of the Prelatick English Clergy to maintain Protestancy , since the beginning of King James's Reign . THeir Corruptions of Scripture ( for maintaining their Character ) continued in the Bible , tho' commanded by King James , it should be reviewed and corrected . Pag. 391 Dr. Abbot and Dr. Smith , Bishops of Canterbury and Glocester , corrupted the Translation of Scripture , which had been sincerely perform'd by Sir Henry Savill . Pag. 397 Of Dean Walsingham's Search into Matters of Religion before his Change to the Catholick : How he repair'd to King James as to the Head of the Church , for a Resolution of his Doubts ; who remitted him to the Lord of Canterbury , and he to other Men ; and how after finding no Satisfaction , he betook himself to the Reading of Catholick and Protestant Authors , for discerning on what side was the true and false Dealing . Pag. 403 Dean Walsingham's Doubts and Difficulties in Reading the Catholick Book . Pag. 406 The Substance of Dean Walsingham's Memorial to the K. Pag. 409 Dean Walsingham's Appearance before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at the Councel-Table . Pag. 410 His Appearance before him at Lambeth . Pag. 414. His third and fourth Appearance before him . Pag. 416 How loath the Protestant Clergy is , that the King or Great Persons should examin their Doctrine , or way of defending it . Pag. 417 What Cheating and Unconscionable ways were taken to frighten Dean Walsingham from examining of the Truth . Pag. 417 What pretty Books the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury commended to Dean Walsingham to inform him of the Truth ; They prov'd after Examination , Rediculous Libels . Pag. 420 Dean Walsingham's Address Mr. Rolfe , Commissary of St. Albans : and of his Conference with Dr. Downham , &c. Pag. 421 What foolish Answers the most Learned Protestants are forc'd to give to Catholick Arguments . Pag. 422 Mr. Walsingham found no satisfaction in the Answer to the Defence of the Sensure . Pag. 425 Mr. Walsingham's last Appearance before my Lord of Canterbury and his Doctors . Pag. 427 How the Arch-Bishop and his Assembly of Divines , refus'd to confer Dean Walsingham's Notes of Mr. Bell's Corruptions with the Fathers Quoted , notwithstanding the Books were in their presence . Pag. 428 Reflections upon Mr. Walsingham's Relation . Pag. 431 A brief Relation of a Tryal held in France about Religion , whereof the Lord Chancellor of France was Moderator . Pag. 437 A Copy of a Letter Written by a Person of Quality about this Conference . Pag. 441 K. Hen. IV's Letter to the Duke of Espernon , upon the same Subject . Pag. 441 The Authors falcify'd , and therefore the Sentence given against Plesses . Pag. 442 Protestant Falsifications to persuade that the Roman Catholick Doctrine is inconsistant with the Sovereignty and safety of Kings , and with civil Society between Catholicks and Protestants . Pag. 443 Bishop Mortons Falsifications about the Lawfulness of killing a Tyrant . Pag. 444 Bishop Mortons Falsification of Catholicks against the Sovereignty of Princes ; and how he excuses himself by saying he received it from the Archbishop of Canterbury . Pag. 445 Mortons Answer , in which see an Imposture continu'd against Catholicks , by the whole Convocation of the Protestant Clergy , in their Synod held Anno 1603. Pag. 546 The Protestant Falsification to perswade that the Canon-Law , doth warrant deposition of Kings by the Pope . Pag. 447 A Protestant Falsification to perswade that Catholicks may cheat any Excommunicated Persons of their Lawful Debts . Pag. 449 Bishop Mortons Falsification to perswade that Catholicks hold it Lawful to Murther and Massacre Protestants . Pag. 451 Bishop Morton's Falsification to Assert the Kings Supremacy Pag. 453 Ten Falsifications set down together by Bishop Morton to prove that we hold that Popes cannot be deposed , nor be Hereticks . Pag. 457 Primate Bramhalls Falsification , to prove that Popes may and have Decreed Heretical Doctrines . Pag. 458 It is prov'd by Reasons and Examples , that no Religion is so little dangerous to the Sovereignty and safety of Kings , or so Advantagious to the Peace and Prosperity of Subjects , as the Roman Catholicks ; notwithstanding the Doctrin of the Pope's Supremacy . Pag. 459 Protestants cannot clear their Religion from their Doctrin and danger of Deposing Sovereigns , and Disposing of their Kingdoms . Pag. 470 That Protestants could never prove any of the wilful falsifications wherewith they charge Roman Catholick Writers , but themselves are convicted of that Crime wheresoever they Attempted to make good their charge against us . Pag. 473 Bellarmin accused by Sutcliff of Falsifying the General Council of Chalcedon in favour of the Popes Supremacy . Pag. 474 How Protestants are Convicted by Bellarmin of holding twenty ancient condemned Heresies , and how Sutcliff and Bishop Morton to clear them of six only ( fourteen seems they confess ) do falsifie the Fathers and Catholick Authors about worshipping of Images . Pag. 476 Two Pelagian Heresies imputed to Protestants , and how they falsify to clear themselves of the One , and say nothing of the other Pag. 477 Two Novatian Heresies Imputed to Protestants , the one answered with Silence , the other with Falsifying . Pag. 478. The Manichean Heresie against Freewill , Imputed to Protestants , and how pittifully Answered by Bishop Morton . Pag. 479. How Bishop Morton Answers to Bellarmin's Imputation of Arianisme unto Protestants . Pag. 479. How Morton Falsifies and Abuses Bellarmine , who Imputes the denyal of Christs Real Presence in the Sacrament to Protestants . Pag. 480. Falsifications Objected against Cardinal Baronius by Mr. Sutcliff , Pag. 483. Calumnies and Falsifications of Luther , Calvin , Archbishop Laud , and Primate Usher to Discredit Catholick Religion against their own Knowledge and Conscience . Pag. 487. Of Calvins Calumnies against Catholicks and their Doctrine . Pag. 488 Frauds , Falsifications and Calumnies of Primate Usher against the Real Presence and Transubstantiation . Pag. 491. Usher's Falsifications against Confession . Pag. 492. His Falsifications against Absolution of Sins . Pag. 493. Against Purgatory . Pag. 494 Against Worshiping Saints and their Reliques . Pag. 496 Against Prayer to Saints . Pag. 499 Of Archbishop Laud's Frauds and Falsifications . HOw unsincerely Bishop Laud would fain Excuse the Modern Greek Heresie concerning the Procession of the Holy Ghost . Pag. 502 How Bishop Laud Abuses St. Augustine , to make Protestants believe that General Councils may Err , against Scripture and evident Reason . Pag. 504 Vicentius Lirinensis abus'd by Laud to prove the Fallibility of the Church , &c. Pag. 507 How Bishop Laud falsifies Occham to infringe St. Augustin's Authority , concerning the Infallibility of the Church in succeeding Ages , as well as in that of the Apostles : And is forc'd by his Error to resolve the Prelatick Faith into the Light of Scripture , and the private Spirit of Phanaticks ; which he Paliats under the Name of Grace , and thereby Warrants all Rebellions against Church and State , Pag. 509 Divers Frauds and Falsifications of Bishop Laud , to defend that Protestants are not Schismaticks . Pag. 512 Whether it be Piety or Policy to permit the Protestant Clergy of these three Kingdoms to enjoy the Church Revenues , for maintaining ( by such Frauds and Falsifications as hitherto have been alledged ) the Doctrine of the Church of England , which also they acknowledge to be fallible , and by consequence ( for all they know ) false : And h●re the said Revenues may be Conscientiously apply'd to the Vse and Ease of the People , without any danger of Sacriledge , or any Disturbance to the Government , if a publick Tryal of both Clergies , Sinc●rity be allowed , and Liberty of Conscience granted . Pag. 521 The same further demonstrated , and how by Liberty of Conscience ; or by Tolerating the Roman Catholick Religion by Act of Parliament , the British Monarchy will become the most considerable of all Christendom , Peaceable at Home , and recover its Right Abroad . How evidently it is the mutual Interest of Spain and England to be in a perpetual League against France ; and how Advantageous it is for Spain to put Flanders into English Hands . Pag. 534 The King 's Right to France . Pag. 544 My Lord of Clarendin's Policy Censur'd by all Wise Men. Pag. 548. Part 4. The Roman Catholick Religion in every particular wherein it differs from the Protestant , confirmed by undenyable Miracles . THat such Miracles as are approved by the Roman Catholick Church in the Canonization of Saints , are true Miracles ; and the Doctrine which they Confirm cannot be rejected , without denying or doubting of Gods Veracity ; and how every Protestant doth see true Miracles , though he does not reflect upon them , in Confirmation of the Roman Catholick Faith. Pag. 553 The Miracle of St. Januarius of Naples . Pag. 555 The Famous and undenyable Miracle of St. Francis Xaverius wrought on the Person of Marcello Mastrillo . Pag. 556 Antichrist's Miracles are not Credible , if compar'd with Ours . Pag. 561 Of Visible Miracles seen , though not observ'd by every Protestant , in Confirmation of the Roman Catholick Faith : The difference between true and false Miracles . Pag. 562 Of True Miracles related in the Ecclesiastical History by men of greatest Authority in every Age , to confirm the particular Mysteries of our Catholick Faith ; and that sense of Scripture wherein Roman Catholicks differ from Protestants . Pag. 566 Of Miracles related by St. Chrysostom , St. Gregory Nazianzen , &c. in Confirmation of Transubstantiation , Adoration of Christ in the Sacrament , the Sacrifice of the Mass , Communion under one Kind and Purgatory . Pag. 567 Primate Usher's Falsification to discredit two Miracles , Pag. 569 How Protestants falsify and corrupt the very Statutes and Law-Books . Pag. 572 Miracles for the Mass. Pag. 573. Miracles for Purgatory . Pag. 573 Miracles to Confirm the Worship and Virtue of the Sign of the Cross. Pag. 576 Miracles in confirmation of the Catholick Worship of Images Pag. 581 ▪ The Protestant Distinction of Civil and Religious Worship misapply'd by Ministers to delude their Flocks . Pag. 585 Miracles related by St. Augustin , St. Ambrose , &c. in confirmation of Praying to Saints , and Worshiping of their Reliques , &c. Pag. 587 A Miracle to confirm the Worship and Devotion of the Mother of God. Pag. 589 Miracles of Holy Water . Pag. 592 Miracles for the Sacrament of Confirmation . Pag. 595 A Miracle of the Sacrament of Extream-Unction Pag. 597 Miracles of the Sacrament of Confession . Pag. 598 The Obstinacy of Protestants in Rejecting and Corrupting the Antient Fathers , and a notable Corruption and Impudence of Calvin . Pag. 602 Fox his Miracles how Ridiculous . Pag. 604 The Conclusion ; in which is a Parallel between Mahometanism and Protestancy . Pag. 605 The Absence of the Author ; and the Compositor's not understanding English , have occasion'd many Faults : The Author is not Conscious of others , than what are here Rectified : However , if either through Mistake of the Pen , or Press , in such a multitude of Quotations , any thing happen to be found amiss ; the Candid Reader is desir'd to Correct with his Pen. PAge 2 preface l. 26 for Indignity , r. Indigency p. 7 preface l. 27 for Receiver . Revive , p. 4 l. 9. for revered r. reverenced , p. 5 l. 24 for Shew r. Serem , p. 6 l. 24 for wrought r. toucht , p. 8 l. 16 for defyning r. defying , p. 11 l. 24 omitted ( after de Regno Christi ) cap. 7 p. 66 p ▪ 12 l ● . omitted ( after Sardis , Can. 7 p. 16 l. 2 & 4 for Henaias r. Xenaias , p. 18 l. 29 for Holladiam r. Helladiam , p. 24 l. 32 omitted the Letter of Direction ( m ) p. 25 l. 32 for 443 r. 223 , p. 26 l. 3 for de missa angu , r. de Missa privata fol. 228. p. 27 l. 4 for wart r. wait , p 27 l. 9 for ofter r. offer , p. 28 l 22 for 338 , 334 r. 338 , 340. p. 34 l. 27 for in loc . crm . r. in loc . com . p. 36 l. 28 cap. 20 r. cap. 21. p 37 l. 27 Aug. cit 16 r. Aug. cit . lib. 16 c. 2● . p. 39 l. 10 for now Doctrine r. new Doctrine , p. 43 l. 8 for art r. Act , p. 45 l 26 for but the straight r. but both the straight , P. 46 l. 10 for 52 r. 50 in the same line for 54 r. 53 , p. 47 the last line , for dicant r. dicunt ; p. 48 l. 5 for cap 42 r. fol. 90 , p. 48 l 7 for pr●inde modulatur r proinde suo Abitrio modulatur , p. 48 l 8 for suo arbitrio composuit , & ● . deniquae inspecte , r. suo arbitrio ea composuit &c. denique penitus inspecte , p 48 l 16 for de ●ri●it r. de Tainit . fol. 89 , Edit . Paris 1605 , p 52 l 18 for cap. 10 art 13. r cap. 10. art . 13. To. 2. fol. 103 , p , 56 l. 2 r. for all r. a p. 63 l. 22 for when r. then , p 65 l. 28 for 1366 r. 1367 , p. 67 l. 1 for Considered r. Consider's , p 67 l. 1● omitted the word by , p. 68 l. 18 for four r. three p. 69 l 8 for three r. four p. 69 l. 25 for the 22 r. the 21 p. 73 l. 32 and a little r. but a little , p. 75 l. 29 Serm. 34 r. Serm. 32 p. 77 Marg 22 Aneir r. Anyr , p. 89 l. 26 for had r. hath p. 96 mar . l. 1● r. pag. 101 r. 100. p. 96 l. 23 for 79 r. 7 and 9 p. 97 l. 20 for and r. of the , p. 104 l. 20 for buy r. borrow , p 105 l. 10 for wit r. with , p. 105 l. 30 for inconsequent r. inconstant , p. 106 l. 10 for Hereticks r. Heresies , p. 119 l. 32 for contr . Duc. r. contr . Duraeum , p. 123 l. 6 in marg . for colloq . mons . r. colloq . mens . p. 123 l. 25 in marg . for Musenlus r. Musculus , p. 126 l. 13 for Instition r. Institution , p. 126 l. 33 for Eutythians r. Eutychians p 127 l. 11 for with gu●ft r. Whitgift , p. 136 l. 13 for Church r. Graekes , p. 139 l 31 for dispurare r. disputare , p. 141 l. 28 for that is made r. that is , made p. 14● . l. ult for in altogether r. are altogether p 147 l. 9. for lib. 8. de Civit Dei r. lib. 18 de Civit Dei , p. 147 l. 23 for R●zias r. Razias , p. 150 l. 14 for Zainglius r. Z●inglius , p 151 l. 20 for 1534 r. 1584 , p. 155 l 18 for pag. 511 r. pag. 6●2 p. 159 l. 17 for Whitakers work r. Whitakers work p. 369. p. 159. l. 30 for your Priest , r your Priest and Bishop , p. 160 l. 5 for your Elder r your Elder , or Surveyer and Superintendent , p. 160 l. 26 for by r. be , p 160 l. 29 f●r an-Connivers r. and Co●nivers , p. 163 in marg . for 2 r. 1 p. 168 l. l. 24 for [ Act. 28 ] r. [ Act. c. 20 v. 28 ] p 171 l. 4 for he r. the p. 176 number of the page 167 r. 176 p. 176 l. 31 for Staff r. Stuff ; p. 176 l ulr . verb. for manifest r. Bishop p. 184 l. 23 for Earth r. Gentiles , p. 185 l. 31 for Esay 60.16 . r. Esay 60 , 16. p. 186 l. 22 for 209 r. 294 p. 186 l , 23 for so r. to p. 187 l. 12 for Hemnitius r. Kemnitius , p. 187 l. 13 for Paregrni Nationes r. Peregrinationes , p. 188 l. 3 for Romamam r. Romanam p. 188 l. 13 for grea r. great , p. 190 l. 11 for 315. r. 15. p. 190. l. 24. for 438. r. 264. p. 196 l. 13 for os r. of p. 202 l. 10 for is r. if p. 203 l 30 for buth r. but , p. 204 l 3 for humour r. hum . p. 219 l 34 omitted these words seq . An Arbitrary Religion has as many Supreams as Subjects , p. 220 l. 14 for think r. thing p. 223 l. 24 for and r. ad p. 225 l. 26 activitate r unitate , p. 232 l. 5 for Polon r. Polit. 232 l. 12 for Jowor r. Tower p. 134 l. 12 ommitted the word They , p. 243 l. 6 for new r. now p. 246 l. 15 for by r. be p. 253 l. 2● for Zeal r. Seal , p. 262 l. 10 for retain'd r. certain p. 269 l. 4 for by r. but p. 269 l. 10 for them r. then p. 272 l. 28 for professing r. Prophesying p. 274 l. 19 for after Birthright , is omitted these words , ina Prerogative p. 277 l. 20 for f●ain r. fain p. 277 l. 28 for agree r. argue , p. 279 l. 17 for Scruting r. Scrutiny , p. 30 P. 280 for omitted the word not before Prelatick , p 292 l. 7 omitted the word Ensuing , p. 292 l. 8 for but r. and , p. 292 l. 24. It is not the part of Reason , &c. These and the ensuing words , until the Subs●ct . 1. are misplaced , and ough● to have been Printed immediatly after the end of the foregoing Sect. lin . 12. as also the words , Maro his Censure , and what follows ought to have been immediately after Mr. Chillingworth's Character of the Protestant Cause and Clergy lin . 8. p. 94 marg . l. 6 for with argues , r. which argues , p. 294 marg . l. 12 for know r. known p. 296 l. 29 for Sect. 8. r. Sect. 3 , 4 , 8. p. 30● l. 8 omitted not p 302 l. 18 for reverences r. revenues , p. 309 l. 31 for reverences r. revenues p. 315 l. 8 for became r. began p. 326 l. 17 for foundeth r. founded , p. 327 l. 31 omitted Lutheran Book p. 328 l. 12 for tought r. sought p. 341 l. 23 for Pabam r. Papam p. 355 marg . l. 3 for fol. 30 r. fol. 301 p. 156 l. 26 for greer r. geer p. 367 l. marg . l. ult . for 993 r 789 p. 371 l. 21 for 57 r. 53 p. 377 l. 2 Institiam r. Justitiam p. 378 marg . l. 20 for three r. two p. 393 l. 4 for eidoolan r. eidolon p. 393 l. 32 for with r. which p. 396 marg . l. 9 for Mat. c. 17. r. Mat. c. 27. p. 396 marg . l. 11 , 12 , 13. these words , Et in Harm in Mat. 26. ver . 39. are to Be expung'd . p. 407 l. 18 for 1 Thess. r. 2 Thess. p. 417 marg . l. 5 for orgilat r. or great p. 424 l. 27 for he r. I p. 425 l. 4 for notice r. Notes p. 430 l. 24 the word and must be expung'd p. 444 l. 8 for restored r. retorted p. 453 l. 5 for report r. detort p. 457 l. 31 for rot r. not p. 458 l. 10 for Pramhalls r. Bramhalls p. 473 l. 9 for ad r. and p. 475 l. 7 for praeras r. praeeras p. 481 marg . l. 19 for Figurinis r. Tigurinis p. 482 l. 13 for ad r. and p. 482 marg . l. 13 for le r. de p. 495 marg . l. 17 thy r. they p. 503 l. 30 for at r. as , p. 528 l. 11 r. mentibay nefas , in the same line r. hoc for tue , p. 508 for 22 r. 32 p. 515 l 10 for our r. your p. 525 l. 21 after return is omitted to p. 540 l. 31 for them r. then p. 549 l. 23 for Anion r. Anjou p. 560 marg . l. 6 for Matth , 11.12 . r. Matth. 11.21 . Ibid marg . l. 7 for Joan. 10.26 r. Joan 10.25 Ibid marg . l. 9 for Joan 2.23 . r. Joan 3.2 . p. 562 l. 20 for receive r. revive p. 566 l. 5 for this r. thus p. 571 l. 16 at Waldensis omitted cap. 63. n. 6. p , 573 marg . l. 24 for Moral r. Dialog . p. 584 l. 15 for 1664. r. 1604. p. 613 l. 27 for Regal r. Legal , pag. ult . of the Conclusion l. 8 for Actions 1. Nations . A TREATISE OF RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT . FIRST PART . Of the beginning , progress , and principles of Protestancy in general , and of the Prelatick Church of England in particular . SECT : I. Hovv necessary a rational Religion is for a peaceable Government : What Religion ought to be judged rational ? That the truth of mysteries of Faith is more credible then cleere ; A digression concerning the Notions and Natures of things , and in particular of a Body . Hovv unreasonable it is to judg of impossibilities , in order to Gods omnipotency , because they seeme so to our human understandings . How dangerous it is for a temporal Soueraign to pretend a spiritual iurisdiction ouer his subjects : and how the Catolick world ever acknowledged the Bishop of Rome his spiritual iurisdiction ouer all Christians ▪ AMongst our Adversaries discourses against the Roman Catholick Religion , the inconsistency therof with the soueraignty and safety of Princes seemeth to be most applauded . The Protestant Ministers ceas not to proclaim from pulpit and press , that Kings are but Tenants at will to the Pope , and that his spiritual iurisdiction depriues them of all temporall power . We shall rid ( I hope ) protestant Princes of that iealousy ( when we treat of this point ) by manifesting the calumny . In this part of our Treatise we confine ourselues to matters of fact , reserving to dispute of the right herafter . And indeed none can frame a true iudgment of this , or of any other Controuersy , before he be informed of the historical part therof . Therfore our method is to set down in the beginning of this work the state and belief of the visible Christian and Catholick Church untill the yea●● 1517. wherin the world heard first of protestancy : afterwards we shall proceed to examin whether the soul and state may be better gouerned by the principles of protestancy , then of Popery . We doubt not ( with Gods assistance ) to retort against our adversaries their own arguments , and to proue , that as no Religion is a safe way to salvation , but ours , so likewise not any is so fauorable to the soueraignty of lawfull Magistracy , and to the peacebleness of human gouernment , as the same Roman Catholik . We need not inculcat to States-men ( how euer so Irreligious ) that the support of gouernment is Religion , and that th●ir own Masterpiece is , to keep the multitude in awe of the lawes , not so much by force of armes ( an expedient more dangerous then durable ) as by a religious fear of God , and a firm persuasion that Soueraigns are his Vice-gerents ; and divine prouidence so concerned in the maintenance of their authority and prerogatives , that neither can be opposed without infallibility of eternall damnation to the opposers . This persuasion must not be the sole work or word of the Soueraigns themselves , or of their state Ministers ; their testimony would be suspected by the subjects , as partial ; it must be grounded upon authority , credibly reported to be divin , as ( among Christians ) the holy Scriptures explained by the ancient tradition and sense of Councels and Fathers , which by another name we call the Church , or Clergy ; that is men to whom God hath committed the charg of soules , and commanded us to follow their directions in spirituall matters , as being Jnterpreters of the divin Law , which Soveraigns must observe . There could not be an expedient more satisfactory , then the institution of such a Church , Clergy , and spiritual Court of Iudicature , For , if interpretation of Scripture had bin left to the Soveraign , the subjects would mistrust his sincerity in explaining the same ; if to the lay subjects , the Soveraign would be as diffident of their explications : Wherfore to avoid differences and disputes , God appointed the Clergy for spiritual Iudges , ( as being by their institution less concerned in temporal affaires , and therfore presumed to be more conscientious , and less partial in their sentences then lay persons ) and Tradition for the rule , wherby they must direct their judgments : to the end their doctrin be Apostolical , not arbitrary , or altered from the primitive ; but rather all novelties and differences ( concerning matters of Faith ) be still suppressed ; and therby all unlawfull pretensions ( which both Soveraigns and subjects frequently claim under the pretext of Religion ) be remedied or prevented ; for that , souveraignty is as apt to degenerat into tyranny , as subjection into rebellion , if not regulated by a religion that makes it as vnlawfull for lay men to intermeddle with the doctrin of the Church , as it is improper for Church men to intrude themselves into matters of state . But because neither Soueraigns nor subjects are bound to submit their judgments in matters of Faith to a doubtfull authority , therfore vnless they who pretend to be the Clergy , can evidence by vndeniable miracles ( either wrought by themselves , or by their knowen spiritual predecessours that professed the same Faith ) their iurisdiction and doctrin , they can not rationaly pretend to have the charge of soules , or any divine authority for determining controversies of Religion . Because , seeing the principal part of Religion doth consist in a perfect submission of the vnderstanding to divi●e authority , ( even against the appearence of sense , and the probability of reason ) vnless the Church or Clergy wherupon we rely doth make it evidently credible by supernatural signs , that their authority and doctrin is divine , their religion is not rational ; and therfore no rational person is bound ( without that supernatural evidence ) to acknowledg in them a spiritual jurisdiction , or to follow their dictamens , and forsake his own privat dictamens , and principles of probability , or the seeming evidence of his senses . Some men do require more then this , and are of opinion that a Religion can not be rational , vnless the truth therof be cleerly discerned , or demonstrated by the light of natural reason ; and judg it a great folly in men to believe what they do not comprehend . But this maxim is destructiue to Religion and reason ; it doth ouerthrow the very foundation of both , which consists in acknowlegding an incomprehensible Deity , whose perfections are infinit , his thoughts and revelations ( and by consequence the mysteries of Religion ) inscrutable , and therfore to be revered , not examined by so limited and imperfect creatures as we are ; that can hardly diue into the bottom of ordinary difficulties , and discern the immortality of our own soules , or the nature and composition of any visible body . And albeit an excellent wit of our age , in a late Treatise , hath endeavored to cleere by natural reason the mysteries of Christian Faith ; and in order to facilitat the beliefe of Transubstantiation , doth teach that one body can not be in many places at one tyme , nor be penetrated with another body ; and therfore is for'ct to say , that Christ hath as many bodys as there are consecrated pieces of bread : yet I think it more agreable not only to Catholik Religion , but to natural reason , to believe , that the very same body of Christ that was born of the blessed Uirgin , and is in heaven , is also under every consecrated species : otherwise it must be sayd that Christ our Sauiour is a monster , that hath not only as many heads , but as many bodies , as there are Consecrations But if this argument be thought more popular then philosophical , I hope schollars themselves will judg it unrea●●nable that Divines or Philosophers be too positive in defining the immutable essences of things , or ( which is the same ) in determining what is possible , or impossible for God to do , and in deducing conclusions from such notions as they call natures . If we consider that we owe all our human knowledg to the evidence of sence ( which is often fallacious ) and to reflections , of the mind ( which are alwayes fallible ) we must grant that we may be frequently mistaken in the ground of our demonstrations , and do sometimes take our own fancies and false conceits for true objects , which haue no real existance in themselues , nor any other immutability in order to Gods power , besides that tenacity , or obstinacy wherwith men stick to their own opinions . This is sufficiently proved by the great discord and diuersity of opinion that is in the schooles , euen concerning the essence or nature almost of euery thing , and particularly of a body or quantity . Wherfore it is more probable that M. r Bonart is as much mistaken in placing the nature or essence of a Body in actual extention , as he takes others to be in their contrary opinions concerning the same subject ; otherwise Christ hath non only as many Bodys as there are consecrated species , but also it followeth ( if his Body can not be penetrated , or in the same place with another ) that he united to his Diuine person a nature which he cannot command to be whersoeuer himselfe ( as God ) is pleased to be : I am no Vbiquist , and therfore I grant that the hypostatical vnion doth not make Christs body to be every where , or whersoeuer the Diuinity is ; but I think all Christians ought to belieue that it is possible for Christ ( as man ) to be in any particular place , and penetrated with any Body whatsoeuer , where his person and Diuinity is . And as for Mr. Bonart his way of defending how Christs Body did , and may penetrat other Bodys , I see no difference between it and that of the heretiks which himselfe derides , and condemns [ Pag : 257. ] but that the Heretiks say he did shew his body to the assembled Disciples through some chinck of the wall , or through the Key-hole of the doore ; and M. r Bonart says Christ shot or thrust his Body in , through the indiscernable pores which are in euery body ; and how the whole or the parts of a human body ( such as that of Christ then was , and now is ) can be conueyed entire through one or many such litle and distant pores , without loosing all human shape , ( if a perfect penetration be not allowed ) I do not understand . And I belieue M. r Bonart will hardly be able to declare how the substance of Christs Body is not lost , as well as the shape , by Christs passing through the pores ; for that according to his principles [ pag. 243. ] the substance of euery Body consists in such a greatness and figure of the parts , as compose that body ; and upon this ground he proceeds when he sayes [ ibid. ] that the substance of bread and wine is changed into the Flesh and ●loud of Christ , because the greatness and figure of the parts of bread and wine are changed , though al the rest doth remain . If therfore the greatness , figure , ( and by consequence the shape ) of Christs Body , and its parts , be changed , or proportioned to the pores of the penetrated body ( as they must of necessity be before they can pass or be shot through them ) Christs Body , and the parts therof , do loose the substance , as well as the shape of a human body , according to M. r Bonartes doctrin . Hence we conclude that actual extension doth not so cleerly ( nor so catholickly ) declare the essence of a Body , but that it must leaue or breed some doubts of Christs humanity , of Gods omnipotency , and of his Mothers virginity . Besides ; if the least particles or Atoms of a Body are of the same nature with the whole , and haue real extension , by the addition wherof they make a body greater , as this Author holds ; it can not be well comprehended , how the Atoms can be so litle as not to be capable of being lessend by Gods power ; especially seeing M. r Bonart doth grant one side of an Atom may be toucht , and the other side not toucht . For , if so : How can any that believes Gods omnipotency , imagin , that God can not separat or divide sides which may be seuerally wrought and wrought upon by a corporeal instrument ? If an Atom be so thick that a corporeal instrument may touch one side therof , and not touch or reach the other side , there is ground and room enough for Gods power to separat one side from the other ; for if one side of a Body or Atom can be wrought upon independently of the other , it may exist also , or be moued , independently of the same , and by consequence is distinct and separable from it . And indeed , if to be toucht , and not to be toucht be not contradictions sufficient to prove real distinction between the sides , or extremes so denominated , no kind of contradictions can inferre real distinction . To say , [ as Mr. Bonart doth pag : 301.303 . & passim ] that to be toucht and not toucht argues only a verbal ( not a real ) distinction in the Atom wherof one side is realy toucht , the other not realy toucht ; and to pretend that this is cleerly deduced from the first notion or nature of a Body , or extense ; because forsooth , the notion of Parts must suppose not only one extense but many , with a certain manner and measure of extension ; and that therfore an Atom may be extended , and yet not partible : To maintain this discourse I say , seemeth to me a begging of the question , and as difficult as any other opinion in this matter . For 1. It is not easy to conceiue how any extension whatsoeuer , can include in its first notion or nature , an exclusion of division . 2. In M. r Bonart his own principles it seemeth in-intelligible how any Body or Atom that hath so much extension [ that is so much length , bredth , and profundity ] as to be capable of being toucht on the one side , with out being toucht on the other , is not composed of parts distinct one from the other . For , [ pag : 303. ] he grants that if in the expansion or extension of an Atom did appeare any little line or point , that line or point would conclude a real distinction of parts in the Atom . Now why the touch of any corporeal instrument [ suppose of a Painters pencil framed and managed by Gods hand ] may not leaue an impression of it selfe [ which impression you may call a line or point ] in that place or side of the Atom that is toucht , no reason can be giuen ; and by consequence there can not be any for denying real distinction , and division of the parts in the Atom . Lastly : It must be concluded that the Atoms are either partible , or penetrated : Because if they be not partible , they do touch each other wholy , and euery where , according to their dimension , and extensions ; and if they touch in such a manner , they are penetrated , or in one and the same place : And if they be penetrated , or penetrable , impenetrability can not be the essence or property of the Body which they compose , and wherof it only consists . This is only sayd [ by the way ] to shew that the best wits may mistake the notion and nature not only of a spirit , but also of a Body ; and that they are not the best Guides when they steere themselues and others more by their own privat discourses , then by the common sense of the faithfull , in mysteries of faith , wherof it is a property to be more credible then cleere . But if the euidence of sense be fallacious , and the reflections of our mind fallible , what certain knowledg can we haue of any thing ? Must we al turn Stoiks or Sceptiks ? Shall we doubt of all Geometrical Demonstrations ? No , we haue certain Knowledg of our own existence , and of some other euident truths . And as for the Demonstrations of Geometry , Euclid himself neuer pretended that his notions of a point , line , superficies , perfect circle , &c. did point at the real existence of any such objects , as indivisible points , lines , perfect cercles &c. he knew , and Mathematicians confess , there are no such things in rerum natura . And seing Mathematicians are so ingenuous as to acknowledg that their cleerest notions are not real natures , or immutable essences , I see no reason why Philosophers [ whose demonstrations are not so cleere ] should be so positiue in defining things , as if they were defy●ing Gods omnipotency to make them otherwise then they haue dictated in the Schooles , or published in their Bookes . And he that thinks to declare the reasonableness of Christian Religion by making the mysteries therof agree rather with his own Philosophical notions , then with the common sense of the Church , will involue himselfe into a labyrinth of errours . The reasonableness therfore of Christian Religion must not be measured by any cleere euidence of truth that human reason discouers , either in the works of nature , or in the diuine mysteries [ for we shall proue herafter such euidence to be inconsistent with faith ] but rather by the cleere euidence of an indispensable obligation [ that euery man finds and feeles in himselfe ] of submitting his judgment to the Church , when he reflects upon the signs and sufficiency of its authority in order to propose diuine doctrin . To submit our reason to a Church or Clergy that hath no cleere and authentick signs of diuine authority , is simple and sinfull credulity : not to submit to its sufficient authority , that is , to authority signed with supernatural signs , is heretical obstinacy . As for the meanes wherby euery one concerned in this spiritual subjection to the Church and Clergy , ought to be informed of their miracles , authority and jurisdiction , they are the same which all men practise and judg to be sufficient for knowing and acknowledging the true and lawfull Heire of a Kingdom or estate . The right to temporal dominion is decerned by succession , and that succession by Tradition ; so also the right to gouern soules , and decide Controuersies of faith , must be acknowledged to reside in them that by a continual succession of Episcopall hands deriue their spiritual caracter or mission from the Apostles , and neuer varied from the Apostolical doctrin ; of which succession of Caracter , and continuance of doctrin , the best proof is a neuer interrupted Tradition , or Testimony of honest and knowing persons in euery age , against whose verdict there can be no Lawfull exceptions . That Church or Clergy whose doctrin , caracter , miracles , and jurisdiction is witnessed by this Tradition , ought to be obeyed , as hauing the spiritual superiority wherunto Christ our Saviour commanded both Soueraigns and subjects to submit their iudgments in the mysteries and Controversies of Religion . Though this expedient of a Church and Clergy so qualified , ought to be acceptable and satisfactory to lay Princes and people , yet modern Politicians stand upon such nyceties , that the greatest danger and difficulty which they apprehend in the government of a Christian Commonwealth is , to order so affaires , that the spiritual and temporal jurisdiction may not clash ; they feare that by mistake , or ambition of the Clergy , the temporal may be too far intrenched upon , and made not only subordinat , but subject to the spiritual ; and the spiritual at length become so absolute , and arbitrary , that the Clergy may [ at least indirectly ] spiritualize any thing for their temporal conveniency ; at least that they may persuade such as [ by an implicit faith ] submit to their authority and direction , to question [ if not contemn ] any ciuil Gouernment , wherof they mislike the Lawes or Ministers , and by their Ecclesiastical Censures fright the illiterat multitude into rebellion upon the score of religion . To prevent this ●anger our English states-men think fit to continue that supremacy of spiritual Iurisdiction in our Kings , which K. Henry 8. assumed ( how piously and politikly , shall be seen herafter . ) At present we will only obserue , that it is thought to be the concern as well as the custom of Soueraigns , to employ Clergy men in state affaires , for two reasons . 1. That they may be as much engaged in defending the temporal jurisdiction which they receiue from , and exercise by fauour of their Prince , as in vphoulding the spirituall , so much recommended to them by the Pope . 2. That the Soueraigns may be cleered from all suspicions and aspersions of intermedling with the soules of their subjects , farther then the Church and the Pastors therof do allow . This Christian policy is imitated by the Turck , he thinks it so necessary for the safety of a Prince , not to be suspected by his people of affecting a spiritual supremacy , that he consults with , and euen remits to his Mufty , matters of state depending of Religion . The Pagans giue the same respect to their Priests ; and the wisest Heathen Princes who tooke vpon themselues the High Priesthood , pretended and persuaded their subjects ( by some counterfait miracle ) that they had bin inspired , or commanded by the Gods to assume the dignity ; or that the same was due to them by descent from some Deity . And indeed nothing less then a miracle can make it prudently credible , that God doth trust temporal Soueraigns with a spiritual supremacy . The ground therfore of policy as well as of piety and peace , consists in the choyce of a Clergy or Church for gouerning soules , whose doctrin , jurisdiction and caracter hath bin confirmed by supernatural miracles ; The legal settlement of such a Religion and Clergy is so agreable to reason , and so acceptable to all sorts of people , that the non-conformity therunto will be prudently ( and popularly ) judged to proceed rather from the contumacy then from the conscience of the non-conformists : and the seuerity of lawes against such Recusants , will sauor more of piety then cruelty , and moue more the generality of subjects to praise the Soueraign , then pitty the sufferers . In a word ; such a Church and Religion will make the Prince powerfull and popular ; the multitude peaceable and obedient ; the Clergy respected ; their riches and priuileges not enuied ; it will take away conscientious pretences of rebellion , and remoue or reconcile all differences between the spiritual and temporal jurisdiction . That the Roman Catholick Clergy and Religion hath all these properties ; and the Protestant reformations not one of them , shall appeare after we haue finished the historicall part of this Treatise . Now to the matter of fact . For the space of almost 1500. yeares it was the general belief of Christendom , that the true Catholick Doctrin was professed only by such as held to the Roman faith , and that the † Supremacy of spiritual jurisdiction was annexed to the Bishop of Rome , as St. Peters Successor , and Christs Vicar vpon earth ; and that the Sea Apostolick changed not any one point of faith the first 600. yeares , is acknowledged by our learned [a] Adversaries ; as also affirmed by the [b] Fathers , that the Roman faith or Church , and the Catholick faith or Church , are Synonima ; and that he who is not in communion with the Bishop of Rome is profane , and not in the way of salvation . And though some of the more modern Greecks attempted to make their Patriarch of Constantinople at least equal with the Bishop of Rome , yet their frequent submissions and recantations of that presumption , together with the cleere testimonies of their holy and ancient [d] Bishops and Councells in behalfe of the Popes supremacy ouer the Churches of the East as well as of the West , sufficiently demonstrat the error of the Greek Schismatiks . I say therfor that for the space of almost 1500. yeares , the Roman Doctrin was held to be the true Catholick and Apostolick , and the Roman Bishop to be S. Peters successor , and Christs Vicar vpon earth . For , abbeit our learned Adversaries do not all agree in acknowledging that the Roman doctrin was pure for the first 600. Yeares ( some of them saying that it began to be corruped after the Yeare 400. others before that tyme ) yet they do not prove their assertions , but ground them upon this only reason , that the Church in those ages did censure as Heresies some points of Protestancy , and condemned the [e] Authors as heretiks ; In particular Henaias for opposing the worship of Images ; Aerius for denying prayer and offering the Sacrifice of the Mass for the Dead ; Vigilantius for denying prayer to Saints , and their worship ; as also the Monastical Profession ; the single and unmarried life of Priests denied not only by Vigilantius , but by Jovinian and others ; as the Churches visibility , and continuance by the Donatists : But the censuring these protestant doctrins as errors , cannot be an argument of corruption or chang of faith in the Church that did censure them , vnless it be made appeare that the opinions censured had bin formerly the ancient and generally receiued belief of the Catholick and visible Church , so that these and the like exceptions are grounded only vpon some vnlearned Protestants suppositions without proofe , and rather confirm then disproue what we say . Therfore we shall not argue against them , but in this particular of the Roman doctrins purity for the first 600. yeares , we will prefer the testimony of their more learned brethren , viz. their greatest Doctor Bishop . [g] Ieuell , Bishop [h] Godwin , D. r Humfrey , D. r Bell , Bishop Bale , and many others of their best Diuines versed in Ecclesiasticall history ; all of them positiuely affirming , that the Roman faith was pure for the first 600. years ; and that S. Gregory the great , Bishop of Rome ( with whom ended that terme of years ) liued and dyed in the purity of the primitiue faith ; and that all the Orthodox Christians of the whole world professed his belief , and communicated with him , as appeareth also by his correspondence , and communion of faith with the Patriarchs of Alexandria , Antioch , Constantinople , and Hierusalem , and with all the Orthodox Churches of the world through out Asia , Africk , and Europe . We do also agree with most protestant Writers in this , that the same Religion which S. Gregory the great held , was that which S. Austin the Monk and his Companions ( sent by Gregory into England to conuert the Saxons ) taught our Ancestors , and that God was pleased to confirm the faith which they preacht , with Miracles ; as appeareth by the Confession of our [i] Adversaries , and by S. Gregories letters to Austin [k] himself an . 602. aduising him not to glory therin but rather to consider that God gaue him that gift for the weal of those to whom he was sent . As also by his letters to Eulogius Arch-bishop of Alexandria ( lib. 7. epist. 30. indict . 1. ) saying therin : Know then that wher as the English Nation &c. remaining hitherto in Infidelity ; I did by the help of your prayers &c. send unto that Nation ( Austin ) a Monck of my Monastery , to preach to them &c. and now letters are come to vs , both of his health and of his work , that he hath in hand ; and surly either he or they that were sent over with him , work so many Miracles in that Nation , as they may seem to imitate the power and Miracles of the Apostles them-selves . That the particulars of the Religion professed by S. Gregory , and the visible Church of his tyme , and preacht by St. Austin the Monck and his Companions , sent by Gregory to convert the English Nation , were the same which we Roman Catholiks profess at this present , is evident by all Histories , Both sacred and profane ; and even by the Confession of all Protestant writers , who treat of this subject . Austin the great Monck ( saith Doct. Humfrey ) [l] sent by Gregory the great Pope , taught the Englismen a burthen of Ceremonies &c. Purgatory , Mass , Prayer for the Dead , Transubstantiation , Reliques , &c. And the [m] Centurywriters , [n] Carion , [o] Osiander , and other learned Protestants say , that the Religion preacht by St. Austin to the Saxons was , Altars , Vestements , Images , Chalices , Crosses , Censors , Holy Vessells Holy water , the sprinkling therof , Reliques , Translation of Reliques , dedicating of Churches to the bones and ashes of Saints , Consecration of Altars , Chalices , and Corporals , Consecration of the font of Baptism , Chrism , and Oyle , Celebration of Mass , the Archi-Episcopal Pall at Solemn Mass tyme , Romish Mass Books , also free will , merit , Iustification of works , Penance , Satisfaction , Purgatory , the vnmarried life of Priests , the publik invocation of Saints , and their worship , the worship of Images , Exorcism , Pardons , Vowes , Monachism , Transubstantiation , prayer for the Dead , offering of the healthfull Host of Christs body and bloud for the Dead ; the Roman Bishops claim and exercise of Iurisdiction and supremacy over all Churches ( Reliquumque Pontificiae superstitionis Chaos ) even the whole Chaos of Popish superstition . Now that D. r Fulck should term this conversion our perversion ; and that Mr. Willet should place St. Gregorie and St. Austin , among the Fathers of Superstition ; and Osiander should say , they subjected England to the Yoke of Anti-Christ ; and Mr. Harison that they converted the Saxons from Paganism to no less hurtfull superstition then they did know before , making an exchang from open to secret Idolatry &c. we attribute to an excess of their privat spirit , and zeale in their own Presbiterian , or Fanatik way , which doth not agree with the more sober and more Christianlike Protestants ; nor indeed impugn our assertion , which is , that this Popery , now so much raild at , though professed by St. Gregorie and wherunto our Ancestors were converted by St. Austin ▪ the Monck , and our selves yet profess , was the Religion held by the visible Church as the only Catholik and Apostolik in the 6. age ; and that vntil then no known chang of Christs Doctrin had bin made in the Roman Church . Whether the whole Church of the 6. age was deceived or no , in this their persuasion , and adhesion to the Roman Doctrin , is another question , and shall be discussed herafter . SECT : II. Of the Author and begining of Protestancy , and of Luthers Disputation and familiarity with the Devill , serjously related by him self in his authentik Bookes . THE first that preacht the Protestant Religion , or Reformation , was Martin Luther , a German , who ( as himself [a[ confesseth in a letter to his Father ) had bin fearfully hanted from his youth with Sathans apparitions , and ( as others testify ) often in the forme [b] of firebrands ; These frights together with the suddain death of his dearest Camerade slain by a thunderbolt , forced him ( as he says , in the said Epistle ) to enter into the Religious order of St. Augustin , wherin he lived some yeares ( not without signs and suspition of being possessed ) vntill that an 1517. one John Tecell a learned Dominican frier , was preferred before him in publishing and preaching of Indulgences , which Sermon in like occasions had bin formerly giuen to the Augustins . This fancied injury don to his Order and Person , put Luther into such a passion , that notwithstanding he vnderstood not well ( as he ingeniously [d] confesseth ) what the name of Indulgences meant , yet he preacht Sermons , and printed conclusions against them : his propositions being condemned in Germany , he appealed to Rome , and submitted his doctrin and himself to Pope Leo 10. Vt [e] reprobet , approbet , sicut placuerit , acknowledging his voice to be the voice of Christ. But loe ( saith he ) [f] whilst I look for a joyfull sentence from Rome , I am striken with the thunderbolt of excommunication , and condemned for the most wicked man alive ; then I began to defend my doings , setting forth many bookes & ● . And seing it is so , let them impute the fault to them-selves , that have so excessively handled the matter . [c] Afther that Luther had lost his hopes of being favored in his opinions by the Pope , he [g] appeald from his Holyness sentence to a general Councel , assuring himself that none would be caled , or assembled in his own days . That this was his design , and not any desire of being directed by a Councel , is manifest by his procedings ; for , as soon as he heard there was a Councel summoned , and perceived some likelihood that the Bishops would meet , he writ a [h] book against the necessity and authority of general Councels , and begins with the first at Jerusalem , condemning its Decrees ; then , with the first Nicen , and concluds there is no obligation of submitting our Judgments to their Definitions ; or of conforming our actions to their Canons ; and declars to his Germans , in what a sad condition they would all be , if they were bound to obey Councels , for then they must have abstained from strangled meat , foule , add ( which is wors ) from puddings , and sausages , according to the Apostles Decree at Ierusalem ; as if that Decree ( intended but for a litle tyme ) were still in force . Therfore he maintained that Christ [i] hath taken away from Bishops , Doctors , and Councels the right and power of judging of doctrin , and given it to all Christians in generall ; and admitts of no other rule but Scripture , as every one will thinck fit to interpret the same . Thus farr was Luther driven by his pride , and passion against the Dominican friars , with resolution not to recant what he had once writt , though he wished [k] he had never begun that business and that his writings [l] were burned and buried in eternal oblivion : he had not as yet precipitated himself into the particulars of Protestancy , but for some few years went no further then the dispute of Indulgences , and wore still his religious habit ( though he had left the Monastery ) sayd Mass , and was much tormented in his Conscience for running so desperat a cours as to appeale from the authority of Popes , Fathers , Councels , and Church , upon a punctilio of his mistaken honour . How often ( saith he ) did my trembling hart beat with in me , and reprehending me ▪ object against me that must strong argument ; Art thou only wise ; do so many worlds err ? were so many ages ignorant ? what if thou errest and drawest so many into error to be damned with thee eternally ? &c. [m] And again . [n] Dost thou O sole man , and of no accounpt , take upon thee so great matters ? What if thou being but one offendest ? Jf God permitt such so many , and all , to erre , why may he not permit thee to erre ? [o] Hitherto apartaine those arguments , the Church , the Church the Fathers the Fathers , the Councels , the Customs , the Multituds , and greatness of wise men : whom do not these clouds and doutes , yea these seas of examples ouerwhelm ? Being thus tormented and tossed between his passion of pride , and a perplexity of mind , himself relates at larg ( tom . 7. Wittemb . edit . an . 1558. lib. 1. de Missa . angu . ) how vpon a certain tyme he was sudainly awaked about midnight , and how sathan began his disputation with him , saying ; Harken right learned Doctor Luther ; Thou knowest thou hast celebrated priuat Mass , by the space of 15. years , almost euery day ; what if such Masses were horrible Idolaty ? &c. The deuill speaking thus to me , I burst forth all into a sweat , and my heart began to tremble , and leap ( voce forti & gravi utitur ) the deuill had a graue and strong voice &c. And then I learned how it came to pass that somtyms early in the morning men were found dead in their beds . To the Deuill I answered , I am an anoynted Priest , receaued consecration from a Bishop , and did all things by order of my Superiors . In these streights and agony I would fain vanquish the Devill with the armes of Popery , and did object the intention and faith of the Church &c. But Sathan with greater force and vehemency did pursue ; Go to , shew where it is writen ( teaching Luther to appeale to Scripture alone ) that a wicked and incredulous man can assist at the Altar of Christ , and consecrate in the Churches faith ? &c. If men have taught it without the express word of God , it is altogether vntrue : But in this sort are you acustomed to do all things in the dark , under the name of the Church and so set to sale your owne abominations for Ecclesiastical doctrin . &c. After this disputation Luther was so well acquainted with the Devill , that him self saith ( tom . 2. Germ. Jen. fol. 77. Believe me J know the Devill very weell , for now and then he walketh with me in my Chamber . When I am among company he doth not trouble me , but when he catcheth me alone , then he teacheth me my manners . And ( in Conc. Dom. Reminiscere fol. 19. apud Cochlaeum ) J am troughly acquainted with the Deuill , for I haue eaten a bushell of salt in his company . Yea confesseth ( in Colloq . Germ. fol. 275.281 . ) that the Devill was his Bed-fellow , and lay with him more frequently and ●loser to him then his beloved Kate the Nun. And ( in litteris ad Electorem Saxoniae ) he saith , The Devill doth so run to and fro trough my brain that J can neither write , nor read . And ( in Colloq . Germ. fol. 283. ) brags thus , J have a couple of rare Devills , who attend and wait vpon me most diligently : they are no petty Fiends , but great Devills ; yea great Doctors of Divinity among the rest of the Devills . One of these two great Doctors of Divinity continued his disputation thus against Luther . Now I urge this , that thou didst not consecrat in thy Mass , but didst offer and adore only bread and wine , and proposedst the same to be adored by others &c. The institution of Christ is , that other Christians may communicat in the Sacrament , but thou art anointed , not to distribute the Sacrament but to sacrifice ; and against Christs institution thou hast vsed the Mass for a Sacrifice &c. And that which Christ did ordain for eating and drinking for the whole Church , and to be given by the Priest to other Communicants &c. of this thou dost make a propitiatory Sacrifice O! abomination aboue all abomination , And after that Zealous and learned Devill had thus exclaimed , and argued against the Sacrifice of the Mass , the authority of the Church , Transubstantiation , and adoring of the B. Sacrament , he reasons also against the intercession and prayer to Saints ; his words are set down by Luther in the same place thus . We Spirits being rejected , do not confide in Christs mercy ; neither do we look upon him as a Mediator or Savior , but feare him as a cruell Judg ; such was thine and all other Papists faith &c. Therfore ye did shun from Christ , as a cruell Judg to Mary , and the Saints ; and they were Mediators betvveen you and Christ ; so is Christ deprived of that glory . In this disputation the Devill had so good success , that Luther was convinced , and resolued to become a Protestant , and to preach and print , not only against the Mass , and the other particulars mentioned in his Disputation , but ( upon these words of the Devill , ( So is Christ deprived of glory ) did Luther ground his opinions against the necessity of good works ( in favor of Iustification by only faith ) against merit , satisfaction , Purgatory &c. and maintained these his Diabolical opinions with so great obstinacy , and so litle respect to [p] Scripture , Church , Councells , Fathers , Princes , and Prelats , that such parts of Scripture as did not favor the Devills argument , he either rejected them as apocrijphal , or altered the words and sence in his Translations and Comments , against all exemplars and copies either in Greek ▪ Hebrew , or Latin. And all Princes and Prelats that contradicted his errors , he vilified in so virulent and villanous terms , that none but a soule directed by the Devil could resolve to print them . His Bull against all Bishops is full of most vile stuffe : as also against the Duke of Brunzuick , the Elector of Mentz , &c. In so much that his owne Scholler Sleidan acknowledgeth his manner of writing to be unworthy , Base , Scurilous &c. In his Book , and answer against K. Henry 8. he calls him an envious mad foole , babling with much spittle in his mouth , more furious then madness it self , more doltish then folly it self , indued with an impudent and vvhorish face , without any one veine of princely bloud in his body , a lying sophist , a damnable rotten vvorme , a Basilisk and progeny of an Adder , a lying scurill , couered with the title of a King , a clounish wit , a doltish head , most wicked foolish and impudent Henry . All this he says tom . 2. Wittenberg . fol. 333.334.335 . & fol. 338.334 . he saith : The King doth not only lye like a most vaine scurre , but passeth a most wicked knave : thou lyest in thy throat foolish and sacrilegious King ; And other so immodestly base expressions against his Majesty and all other Papists , that we ar ashamed to English them . By Luthers Language , and way of defending his Protestant doctrin , we might guess at his Master , though him self had not told us his name was Sathan . SUBSECT I. How weakly Protestants excuse Luthers Conference with the Devill , and the embracing of Sathans doctrin . THERE is not any one thing troubleth so much the learned Protestants , as their Apostle Luthers acknowledged instruction in Protestancy received from the Devill , and therfore [q] some of them endeavor to maintain that this Disputation was only a spirituall fight in mind , and no bodily conference ; but with the same probability of truth they may affirm that all other real apparitions and the effects therof , were only spirituall conflicts . Luther tells so many corporeal circumstances , that it could not be a meere spiritual fight : first , he says that the Devill spoke to him voce forti & gravi , in a strong and grave voice . 2. That then he learnt how men were found dead in their beds in the morning ; True it is that these words and circumstances are fraudulently omitted by the Divines of Wittenberg , in their later editions of Luthers works , and perhaps Mr. Chark , and Mr. Fulk did never peruse the more ancient and sincere edition ( tom . 6. Germ. Ien. fol. 28. ) where all these things are set down . Yet grant this were no bodily conference , and but only a spiritual conflict , what matters it whether Luther was instructed and persuaded this or that way , by sensible conference , or inward suggestion into Protestancy , if therin the Devill was his Master ? Other [r] learned Protestants excuse Luthers conference , saying it was only a dream ; to mistake which for a reality , he was subject , as being a German Monk , giuing to understand , that good drinck doth frequently turn German dreams into reall persuasions . But vnless they prove that Luther was in a dream , or in drink , when he writ this conference , they wil never persuade any man that reads it , that this Disputation was not real . Him self says he was awake , tells the tyme of the night that it happened , describs the Devills voice , his owne feare , learnt how people were slain by the Devill in their beds ; these reflections and impressions are far from dreams , especialy when the party delivers them as real truths many years after , and [s] maks them the ground of his chang in so important a matter as Religion . But suppose German Monks were as much given to drink , and after drink as apt to mistake their dreams for real truths , as Mr. Sutcliff insinuats ; and to maintain , even when they are sober , that their dreams ar not dreams , as Luther doth his Conference ; of what credit can such an evasion or excuse be to Protestants ? for what difference is ther between a dreaming , drunken , and Diabolical Religion ? These answers not being any way probable , other learned Protestants grant the Devill did realy conferr with Luther ; so Hospinian , B. p Morton , Joannes Regius , Baldwin &c. This last in a Book of this subject printed at Jsleb 1605. pag. 76.75.83 . saith , let none wonder that I confess the disputation to be real , and not written in iest , or hyperbolicaly , but seriously and historicaly ; for , Luther writ that history so consideratly and prolixly , that I still acknowledg be writ it seriously , and according to the truth of the histor . But then he adds that Luther had bin a protestant before that Conference , and that the Deuills drift was to make Luther despair for hauing said Mass , prayed to saints . &c. But this is impertinent and fals ; impertinent , because our dispute is not of the Deuills intention , but of his instruction , and whether Luther did well in embracing ( either before or after his revolt from vs ) the Devills doctrin ; fals , because vntil that Disputation Luther sayd Mass almost every day ; as sathan objects to him speaking [t] somtyms in the present , and was then no protestant ; for , the only point wherin he differed then from Catholiks , was , about Indulgences ; and euen that he maintained more out of a pick and pride , then Judgment , as appears by what hath bin sayd in the beginning of this section . Wherfore Joannes Regius [v] in his Apology against Belarmin saith , that the Devills instruction is no argument to confute Luthers doctrin , because though it was the Devill that instructed him , he instructed him according to the word of God ; and the Devills speak truth somtyms , especialy when they speak that which the Scripture witnesseth . This , in my opinion , is the worst of all other evasions ; 1. Because the Devill seldom or never applies the words of Scripture , to the right sence ; when he tempted our Savior , though he quoted Scripture , yet he was no true Interpreter therof . Now what ground Protestants can have to believe that the Devill hath altered his ould custom , or why they should prefer the Devills Scriptural interpretation , before that of the visible Church , Councells , and Fathers , is not intelligible . 2. It is not credible that if all the visible Church of Christians did err in professing Popery and committed Idolatry by hearing Mass , and adoring the Sacrament , that the Devills would dissuade them from that Idolatrous Religion ; his design and desire is to seduce men , not to reduce them to the way of saluation . 3. It is not likely that God would compel the Devill to be chief instrument of reforming the Catholik Religion , and Church ; in the ould law he never committed so great a charg unto him , he employd holy men and Prophets to convert the Iews and Pagans ; 't is strang that in the law of grace the Devil should become an Apostle . When Dives ( who was but the Devills Camerade ) desired leave to come into the world , and preach to his Brethren , God did not judg him a fit Messenger , or Missioner ; it was answered that his brethren ought to believe Moyses and the Prophets , that is the Church , and the Ministers therof . And though this be a parable , it contains real doctrin , wherby we are instructed that Gods Church would never be so low brought , as to stand in need of Preachers from Hell. Seing therfore we have so many reasons to conclude that God would not make the Devill an Apostle , or a Reviver , and Reformer of the Ghospell , Protestants can have none to believe that the doctrin and Reformation which Luther received from him , is true , or agreable to Scripture . Doctor Morton [w] late Bishop of Duresme ( to proue ad hominem against us , that the Deuill doth persuade men somtyms to piety , and by consequence that Luthers reformation might be pious , though the Deuill instructed him therin ) objected Delrius ( a Iesuit ) affirming , that the Deuill appeared to an Abbot in the forme of an Angel , and persuaded him to say Mass. Therfore if the Mass be good ( as Catholiks say ) the Deuill may and doth exhort men to vertuous actions . To this I answer , 1. That our question is not whether the Deuill may somtyms persuade men to do things of themselues good ; we know he may , but when he doth , it is always with an euill design , and to the end good things may not be well don , but that the manner of doing them may vitiat their goodness . This Delrius in the place cited by M. r Morton , says , and proues by many exemples , wherof the Mass is one . But M. r Morton wilfully conceals and mistakes the truth of the story ; for , Simon the Monk , whom the Deuill endeavored to persuade to say Mass , was neither Abbot nor Priest ; but only Diacon , as Delrius sheweth , and therfore he answered the Deuill , that none ought to say Mass without the order of Priesthood ; and by his aduice to the contrary , he was discouered to bee the Deuill , though he appeared like an Angell . Without doubt this was a Lutheran Deuill , and perhaps the same that dissuaded Luther from the Mass , because Luther [x] learnd of him amongst other points of the reformation , that lay men , and euen women , are Priests , and may consecrat the Sacrament , preach and absolue from sins . Hauing sincerely related this matter of fact in Luthers own words , and not concealed any thing that any of the most learned Protestants could say , to interpret or excuse the same ; and nothing appearing wherby his instruction in protestancy by the Deuill may be denyed , or justifyed , I leaue it to the consideration of all wise , and Religious persons , whether it be policy or piety to promote a Religion whose confessed Author or Apostle is Sathan . So long as the generality of a people can be made belieue that Luther did seriously , and of set purpose , belye himself , and discredit his own reformation ; or that the Deuill is a sincere Interpreter of Scripture ; and Scripture interpreted by him , is the word of God ; so long , I say , as these Nations can be made belieue so impossible things , without doubt both the protestant Church and state may thriue by protestancy , but how long so unlikly a persuasion will continue amongst inquisitiue , though ignorant people is vncertain , as also the greatness grounded thervpon . It hath gained more ground in England then could be expected , considering the ingenuity of the Natiues ; but Q. Elizabeths interest went a great way in the begining of her Reign ; euery Courtier and countrey gentleman expected ( by giuing his vote in Parliament for reuiuing the Protestant Religion , wherby alone she could pretend to be legitimat ) her fauor , and rewards out of the Church liuings ; and in her long continued gouernment , their Children were made belieue that her Reformation was not the work of Cecil , but of Christ ; And euer since , their posterity haue bin confirmed in that opinion by false Translations of Scripture , and falsifications of Councells and Fathers , as shall herafter appeare . It s strang so improbable a persuasion can beare such sway , and beat down the Catholick truth . But as the Deuill insisted most vpon discrediting the Diuine Sacrifice of the Mass in his Disputation with Luther , so the Protestant Clergy striue to make that holy Mystery to be lookt vpon by their flock , as a blasphemous fable , and dangerous deceit . We hope notwithstanding that the English Laiety will reflect upon the occasion of their mistake , and consider whether it be not a grieuous sin and great folly , to preferr Q. Elizabeths temporal interests , ( which now is turned into dust ) before that of their souls : and Whether any thing can be so vnreasonable as to giue more credit to the Deuill , and to Martin Luther , and his followers ( debauch't and dissolute Friars and Priests ) then to the holy Doctors , [y] and Martyrs of Christs Church ( euer since the Apostles ) in their acknowledgd writings , and in general Councels , who call the Mass the visible [1.] Sacrifice , [2.] the true Sacrifice , [3] the dayly Sacrifice , the Sacrifice [4] according to the Order of Melchisedech , the Sacrifice [5] of the Body and Bloud of Christ , the Sacrifice [6] of the Altar , the Sacrifice [7] of the Church , and the Sacrifice [8] of the new Testament , which succeded [9] all the Sacrifices of the old Testament : and that it was offered for the health of the [10] Emperor , for the [11] sick upon the Sea , and the fruits of the earth , for the [12] purging of houses infected with wicked Spirits , for the sins [13] of the liuing and dead ; And this is so undeniable that our learned aduersary Crastoius in his book of the Mass against Belarmin ( pag. 167. ) reprehended Origen , S. Athanasius , S. Ambrose , S. Chrysostom , S. Augustin , S. Gregory the great , and venerable Bede , for maintaining the Mass to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the liuing and of the dead . And if there can be no policy of state ( as things now stand in the English Monarchy ) to make Q. Elizabeths legitimacy and supremacy a matter or ground of Faith , I am sure it cannot be Christian piety to press and preferr the reformation ( which she and her faction introduced for that reason of state against the Stewards ) , before the Religion of all the ancient and learned Fathers of the Catholick Church though we had no other exception against it , but that all the wit and learning of Protestants , cannot make it probable in any degree , that the Deuill is not the Author of Protestancy . SECT : III. Of the principles and propagation of Protestancy . LVther after his Conference with the Deuill , hauing resolued upon that Foundation of his Reformation , which hee had learnt from so godly a Master , endeauored to gaine as many Poets , Players , Painters , and Printers as he could , to discredit with Scoffing , Ballads , Pamphlets , Poems , and Pictures , the Roman Religion ( which untill then had bin caled and esteemed the only Catholick and Apostolick ) and to divulge his n●w Doctrin amongst ignorant and vicious People . For encouragement of the dissolute Clergy to ioyn with him , he taught ( against the doctrin and practise of the whole Church euer since the Apostles as shall be demonstrated ) , that Priests and professed Nuns might mary ; and to giue them good example he took a professed Nun [a] for his owne wife : And prevailed with this doctrin more then Iouinian [b] the heretik . For this liberty together with his principle of justification by only faith , drew from sundry parts of Europe , incontinent Clergymen , wherof the chief were Caro●stadius , Archdeacon of Wittemberg , Iustus Ionas head of a College of Canon Regulars , Oecolampadius a Monk of S. Brigits Order ; Zuinglius a parish Priest ; Martin Bucer a Dominican friar ; Peter Martyr a Canon Regular . Bernardin Ochinus a Capuchin ; and some Augustin Friars of Luthers own Order . Each of these hauing taken a wench , were engaged in Luthers quarrel against the whole Church . But their course of life and the nouelty of their doctrin , being dislik't by all men that were not Libertins ; and not countenanced as yet by any Princes or Prelates ; it was thought necessary for their own preseruation and propagation of their Ghospell , to make it plausible to the giddy multititude , whose ignorance they knew to be as capable of incredible impressions , as their nature is impatient of reasonable subjection . [c] Therfore besids many other works , in the yeare 1520. Luther writ a book called Praeludium captivitatis Babilonicae , wherin he maintayned , that Christians are not subject to human Lawes ( at least in foro Conscintiae ) Christ hauing made them all equall by the Gospell ; but that the Pope , Prelates , and Princes had tyranically usurped a Iurisdiction ouer them ; and kept them for many years in gross ignorance and wors then in a Babylonian captivity ; therfore that God had sent him to reforme these abuses , and restore vnto all oppressed people the Christian liberty which they had received in Baptisme , and by his reformation they might enjoy so fully as to judg and govern all , omnia judicemus & regamus . Then he published his doctrin of justification by only faith so resolutly , that he doubted not to preach , though mens words be the greatest blasphemies , and their works the most damnable vill●nies : If they haue as much confidence to belieue without doubt , as impudence to act without scruple , they may be sure that God hath receiued them into his fauor , and cannot be damned , unless they doubt of their saluation . This abominable presumption Luther [d] grounded , upon the infinitness of Christs merits , ( as if forsooth , our Sauiour had suffered , to the end we might not only be happy in heauen , but by his passion hah waranted our wickedness upon earth ) grossly mistaking , and confounding the sufficiency of Christs merits with the sufficiency of their application ; none can deny but that the least drop of our Sauiours Bloud is sufficient to redeeme millions of worlds , because it is of infinite value ; but all Catholicks euer held that though his Bloud and merits be infinitly sufficient , in themselues , yet are they not sufficiently applyed to sinners , unless they concurr to their own reconciliation and justification , not only by faith , but by good works , Sacraments , and other meanes , which God hath appointed for that purpose . Yet Luther pretended that faith alone is a sufficient application of Christs merits , and that men needed not mortify their bodys nor endeavour to secure their salvation by good works , thinking it a diminution of our Redeemers glory , and a disrespect to his person , that with our free will we should cooperat with his passion , and help our selues ; and vpon this ground do Protestants raise all their batteries against Indulgences , Purgatory , Pilgrimages , praying to Saints , Confession of sins , Penance , Satisfaction , Merit , austerity of Monastical life , Works of supererogation , &c. A reformation so indulgent to liberty , and sensuality , could not want Proselits ; and in a short tyme appeared the effects therof ; the Peasants of Germany rebelled against their Princes and Lords in defence of that Euangelical liberty which Luther had preached , and in the space of one summer , were on both sides a hundred thousand men slain . Some Princes , to make themselues considerable ( by heading the multituds which ran to Luther ) professed his Religion , and protected his person , and he layd for the foundation of his reformation the ensuing principles . SVBSECT I. The fundamentall principles of Protestancy . THe first principle , and foundation of Luthers and of all Protestant reformations , is , a supposition , that the whole visible Church fell from that primitiue pure doctrin , and true meaning of Scripture , which Christ our Sauior and the Apostles had planted , and the first Christians had professed . All r●formed Churches do and must agree in this supposition ( the very name of a Doctrinal reformation implies a change and decay of doctrin ) though they disagree in the tyme , and other circumstances of the change . Untill Luther had conferred with the Devill , he durst not vent this principle ; he appealed indeed from the Pope to a generall Councell , and from a generall Councell ( when he perceiued one was summon'd ) to the Church diffusiue ; but after his conference with Satan , he ventured to say : [a] Lay aside all the armes of orthodox antiquity , Schooles of Diuinity , authority of Councells , and Popes ; consent of so many ages , and all Christian People , we receiue nothing but Scripture , yet so that we must haue the certain authority to interpret the same . Our interpretation is the sence of the holy Ghost , that which others bring , though they bee great , though many , proceedeth from the spirit of Sathan , and from a distracted mind . The reasons why Luther and all Protestants run this desperat course , is , because hauing examined and found that orthodox antiquity was Roman Catholik , and not one Church , parish , or person ever Protestant , before 1517. they are inforced to maintain ( by mis-interpreting Scripture ) that the whole visible Church erred , and that God sent them to reform it . The second principle of Protestancy is , to admit of no rule of faith but only Scripture , of no other infallible Judg of the letter or sence of Scripture , or of any controversies in Religion , but every particular [b] Church and person , interpreting Scripture according to their best endeavors , and discretion . This is expressly declared in the last mentioned words of Luther , and inculcated by the Devill to him in his Conference ; and though few are willing to speake the same words , yet is there not one Protestant in the world , that doth not practise the very same doctrin , and defend it , when the matter is argued : It necessarily followeth from the first principle ; Because if the whole visible Church fell from the pure faith , and from Gods meaning of Scripture , the belief , tradition , and testimony of that visible Church , Councell , and Fathers , can be no true rule of faith , nor themselves fit Iudges of Religion , or of the sense of Scripture . Therfore every privat Protestant must be his own Guide , and Iudg , in matters of saluation and Scripture . For , though Luther , Calvin , or any Protestant Congregation should pretend that their sense and interpretation of Scripture , is that of the holy Ghost ; and the interpretation of others , Diabolical ; yet no privat Protestant doth look even upon their own reformers , or Churches , as infallible in this , or in any other particular , but in as much as he Iudges it agreeth with Scripture ; and therfore every one that supposeth the fall of the Roman Catholik and visible Church , and the fallibility of the Reformers and reformations ( as all Protestants [c] do ) will deny that him-self hath any obligation to submit his Iudgment in controversies of Religion to any interpretation of Scripture , or decision of doctrin , besids his owne ; and so becoms his owne Guide , and his owne Iudg of controversies , and makes his owne interpretation of Scripture , his only rule of faith . The third principle of Protestancy is , that men are justified by only faith ; and that he who hath once justifying faith , can neither loose it , nor be damned . This tenet is cleerly professed as the doctrin of all Protestant Churches : in the Catholik doctrin of the Church of England art . 11. pag. 5● . & seqq . And pag. 54. The Papists are declared heretiks for holding that men are to remain doubtfull whether they shall be saved or not . From these principles flow that infinit variety of Protestant Religions , and reformations . They began in Luthers owne days , and still continue to increase and multiply , having no rule of faith but an obscure text of Scripture , nor no Church , or Court of judging the controversies therof ( with an obligation to submit there-unto ) but every ons privat opinion ; which must needs breed diuision add confusion . And so it happened in the very beginning to Luther . For , his Disciples observing that every one of them-selves might pretend to be sent by God ( by an extraordinary vocation ) as well as Luthers ( seing he proved not his Mission by Miracles , or by any supernatural sign ) to reforme the Church ; divers of them separated from him , and set up for them-selves ; as Zuinglius , who invented the Sacramentarian Religion against Christs real presence in the Sacrament ; and Bernard Rotman , Father of Anabaptists &c. It were tedious to relate all their divisions , and almost impossible . We will only assure the Reader , that in the space of 30. years after Luther began his Reformation , it was divided and subdivided in Germany alone , into 130. Sects . For first , his Disciples divided them-selves into four principal Reformations , of plain Lutherans , halfe Lutherans , Antilutherans or Sacramentarians , and Anabaptists . These plain Lutherans , into eleuen Sects ; and these againe into soft , rigid , and extravagant Lutherans ; the semilutherans or half Lutherans , also into eleven Sects . The Sacramentarians or Antilutherans into 56. and one of these into 9. The Anabaptists into 13. Sebastianus Traneus , a Protestant , numbreth 70. How all these have bin subdivided since , we may guess at , by the variety we see in England of Protestant Religions , not with standing the severity of the Laws in favor of the Prelatik . Not one of these Sects have subordination to another , and agree only in some generall Notions of Christianity , and in impugning the Roman Catholick Religion ( one of the marks wherby the Holy Fathers discerned [d] Heresies . ) Each of them pretend to be a true Church , and condemn the rest as Schismatical , and Heretical Congregations ; perpetualy quoting Scripture one against the other , but understood according to every on s conveniency , fancying or feigning that the Spirit of God inspires him to reform not only the Roman Doctrin , but the Protestant reformations . But when we call to them for their comission ( which must be signed by Miracles ) and desire to know by what authority they presume to take vpon them so high an employment ? they tell vs that Miracles are ceased in the Church , and all ours either [e] counterfeit , or Diabolicall , wrought by the Devill to confirm us in the Idolatry of the Mass , Invocation of Saints , &c. But because our Miracles exceed the Devills power , and can be wrought only by God , rather then Protestants will embrace the truth by Miracles testified , they [f] teach a blasphemy , saying that God doth give power of working true Miracles unto false teachers , not to confirm their false and Popish opinions , but to tempt those ( the Indians , Iaponeses , and Chineses ) unto whom they be sent . By which Paradox they call in question Christianity it self ; for why might not God tempt the Iews and primitive Christians by Christs Miracles , as well as the Indians , and Iaponians by others of the same nature , and as prodigious ? If the Indians be not bound to belieue the doctrin preach't to them , though confirmed by our true miracles , why should the Jews or any others be obliged in conscience to belieue Christ ? For , if God may work true Miracles to make a falshood so plausibly credible as to oblige prudent men to belieue it ; no prudent man is bound to belieue the truth when it is euidently confirmed with true Miracles , and by consequence none was or is bound to belieue in Christ : which doctrin is impious , and contrary to our Sauiours own words Ioan. 5.36 . and against 2. Cor. 12. Hebr. 2.4 . and Marc. 16.20 . and Joan 15.24 . Where our Sauiour declares that the reason why the incredulous Jews did sin in not believing his Diuinity was , because he confirmed his doctrin with Miracles : Jf I had not don among them the works which no other man did , they had not sinned . As for their authority of reforming the Roman Catholick faith , they answered that they needed no other warrant but Scripture , which did cleerly condemn the Popish Tenets . Being desired to shew what parts or words of Scripture were Contrary to the Popish Tenets , ( for that after comparing all places and Texts , very godly and learned men could find no such opposition between Gods word and the Roman doctrin ) they [g] replied , that the reason why the Popish Diuins and Prelats did not see their own errors , afterall their search and study was , because they had not the spirit of God , which had reuealed to Protestants the true meaning of holy writ ; though they could not deny but that their own interpretation was new and contrary to that which the visible Church of the 15. ●n age had receiued from the 14 . th and the 14 . th from the 13 . th and so forth . Therfore they all conspired in maintaining that the visible Church had erred in doctrin , and that the mystery of iniquity began euen with the Apostles , or immediatly after . But because some parts of Scripture are so cleere against their new doctrin , that they could not be wrested against the Roman Catholicks nor reach the Protestant , thy framed a new Canon of Scripture , and excluded as Apocryphall many Books and Chapters which spook cleerly against them , and in their translations of the ould and new Testament into vulgar languages , they added to , [h] and substracted from Gods word , what they thought fit , to make the illiterat people belieue that their new inuentions were agreable to Scripture ; and that Popery was quite contrary to the same . And because none of the first Reformers was a Bishop , and they knew Bishops only could consecrat other Bishops and Priests , and that no Congregation could be esteemed a Church with out that caracter and calling , according to the receiued maxim of S. Hieron . Ecclesia non est quae non habet Sacerdotem . Luther [i] And the rest who pretended a Reformation , judged it necessary to alter this doctrin , and declare that all Christians , both men and women , are Priests by baptism ; yet that only such as are chosen by the Congregation , or Magistrat , ought to exercise the function , for the auoyding of confusion . Luther endeauors to proue it at large thus . The first office of a Priest is to preach the word &c. But this is common to all : next is to baptyze ; and this also may do euen women &c. The third is to consecrat bread and wyn ; but this also is common to all , no less then Priests ; and this I avouch by the authority of Christ him-self , saying , Do this in remembrance of me ; this Christ spook to all there present , and to come afterwards ; whosoever should eat of that bread , and drink of that wine &c. This also is wittnessed by S. Paul , who 1. Cor. 11. repeating this , applyeth it to all the Corinthians , making them all as him-self was , that is to say , Consecrators ; &c. If then that which is greather then all , be given indifferently to all men and women , I meane the word and baptism , then that which is less , I mean to consecrat the supper , is also given to them . So much Luther . With Luther in this doctrin concurred all the reformed Churches , even the Prelatick of England seems to approve therof in the 23. and 25. articles of Religion ; and M. r Horn Bishop of Winchester in the Harbrough An. 1559. n. 2. saith concerning the Ministery , Preaching , or Priesthood of women : Jn this point we must vse a certain moderation , and not absolutly in every-wise debarr women herein , &c. J pray you what more vehemency vseth S. Paul in forbidding women to preach , then in forbidding them to vncover their heads ; and yet you know in the best reformed Churches of all Germany , all the maids be bareheaded . They who know this to have bin the Doctrin of Luther , and of the reformed Churches , are not so much startled at Q. Elizabeths spiritual headship of the Church , nor at the Act of Parliament 8. Eliz. 1. wherin it is declared that she and her successors may authorise any person whatsoever ( whether lay man or woman ) to exercise any spiritual jurisdiction or power in any matter whatsoever , even of consecrating Archbishops , Bishops , Priests &c. And albeit afterwards ( art . 27. ) there hath bin an explanation made concerning the supremacy , excluding from the Church a shee ; or Lay Ministery and Priesthood ; yet the words of the Oaths both of supremacy and Episcopal homage , and the laws of the land ( especialy this Act 8. Eliz. 1. ) maks it most manifest , that even Prelatik protestancy maks the temporal Lay Soveraign to haue the source of all spiritual power and jurisdiction ; and that the letters Patents of the Kings of England , directed to any person whatsoever , renders him capable of consecrating Archbishops , Bishops , Priests &c. as may be seen in the aforesaid Act of Parliament . And if any person whatsoever may by vertue of the Kings letters patents consecrat Bishops , Priests , &c. without doubt the King that gives that spiritual authority , and the Lay men , or women so authorised , must of necessity have the caracter of Episcopacy and Priesthood which they communicat to others : vnless it be maintained that men can give what they have not themselves . Thus was Protestancy begun , principled , and propagated , by Martin Luther and his Disciples ; and because their Sects agree in nothing so vnanimously as in protesting against the doctrin of the Roman Catholik Church , and the Imperial Decrees enacted in behalf therof , though some Lutherans only ( exhibiting the Confession of their faith at Auspurg ) were the Protesters , yet all others who pretend a Reformation , like the name , and call themselves Protestants : thinking it to be more for the credit of their dissenting Congregations , to pretend vnity of doctrin by assuming one name , then declare the novelty and diversity of their Tenets by calling themselves by the names of their first Authors , and Reformers . Now it is tyme we treat in particular of the Protestant Church of England . SECT . IV. Of the Protestant Church of England . IT was the misfortune of England to have had in that tyme when Reformation began to spread , a vicious King , and lewd Court , an ambitious Minister of state , a timorous Clergy , and contemporising Parliament . Cardinal Wolsey who had bin raised from the meanest parentage to domineer over the English Peerage ; not content with his good fortune , and the Kings favour , would needs be Pope , and obtained from Charles V. the Emperour , a promise of his best endeavours to promote him to that dignity ; but perceiving himself deluded when the occasion was offered of performance , and that Charles had preferred to the Papacy one of his own subjects that had bin Instructor to him in his tender age , he resolved to be revenged vpon the Emperors relations , seeing hee could not reach his person . And observing that K. Henry 8. was weary of Q. Catharin the Emperors Aunt , and desired her death or divorce , to the end he might marry and have issue male to succeed him in the Crown , The Cardinal discoursed with his Majesty of the doubts which himself had raised , and many seemed to entertain concerning the validity of a mariage with one that had bin his brothers wife ; and proposed the publick conveniency and privat satisfaction the King might receave by taking to wife some relation of the French King , with whom he persuaded Henry 8. to make a league in defence of the Sea Apostolick against Charles V ▪ whose army at that tyme had sackt , Rome , and kept the Pope prisoner ; not doubting that his Holiness so oblidged by Henry , and injured by Charles , would declare Q. Catharins mariage voyd . K. Henry applauded the motion , but lik't not so well the French Lady , as An Bullen one of his Queens Mayds of honour , of whom he was so desperatly enamoured , that though he was advertised of her amorous disposition , and lewd conversation by one of the Courtiers that sayd he had enjoyed her savours ; yet she rejecting his Majesties courtship , he thought , she was not so cunning as chast , and persuading himself that a woman so sparing of favours to a King , would not be prodigal of them to others , he gave litle credit to the publick reports , and privat informations of her immodest behaviour , and now courted her not as his present Mistriss , but as his future wife ; not questioning but that the Pope whom he had obliged , would declare null his mariage with Q. Catharin : but his Holiness , though much inclined to gratifie the King , and incensed against the Emperour for many indignitys , resolved neither to reward , or revenge by abusing his spiritual authority , which he knew could not be extended to dissolve a knot that God had tyed , and blessed with posterity : his Predecessors dispensation , after mature deliberation , was found to be valid , and no way contrary to Scripture , which is so far from prohibiting a mariage with a deceased brothers wife ( Levit. 18. ) that it commands ( Deuter. 25. ) the brother to marry his issuless brothers widow . And when S. John Baptist told Herod , it was not lawfull for him to keepe his brothers wife , his brother was then living : so that these words could not be applyed to K. Henry 8. his case , nor occasion any scruple in his conscience . He therfore finding by experience that the Sea of Rome was not directed in deciding controversies of Religion by human respects , or interest , and that the Colledge of Cardinals could not be corrupted with bribes , to favour his sute , as some Doctors of forreign vniversities had bin ; nor terified by his threats , as was most of the English Clergy ; he resolved to renounce that spiritual jurisdiction and supremacy , ( the only lett against his lust ) which all his Christian Ancestors had acknowledged , and himself defended in an excellent Treatise against Luther , demonstrating as well by Scripture as by reason , that the Bishop of Rom's supremacy and jurisdiction was de jure Divino ; otherwise how could S. Peter be caled by the Evangelist , Chief of the Apostles , or Primus in dignity , seing his brother S. Andrew was the first Disciple , or primus in antiquity ; and if there was a Chiefe among the Apostles , how can it be imagined that their successors should be all equal , or that the successour of the Chief Apostle could be deprived of a prerogative so necessary for the peace , and government of the succeeding Church ? Or if the Bishop of Rome had not this supremacy as S. Peters Successour , and by Christs appointment , how is it possible , that all the Christian Princes and Prelats of the world should conspire , or consent to submit themselves to one whose temporal power could not force that submission , and they had no cause to feare his spiritual more then that of other Patriarchs , or Bishops confined to their own Dioceses ? These were the Kings reasons in behalf of the Popes supremacy against Luther ; but now his passion made him contradict his pen ; and love ( though blind ) gave him eyes to see more of Christs mind since he had seen Anne Bullen , then all the world had discerned in 1500. years before . He declared therfore by Act of Parliament that the Popes spiritual jurisdiction was a meer vsurpation , and that every temporal Soveraign was Pope , in his own Dominions and by vertue of this prerogative he declared his own mariage with Q. Catharin , voyd ; married Anne Bullen , and seised vpon all the lands , and treasurs of the Monasteries , and Abbies ; dispensed with all the young Friers , and Monks vows of obedience and chastity ( after that he had taken an order they should not break the vow of Poverty ) and to that purpose framed an instrument ( and forced the Religious to sign it ) wherin they declared , that now at length ( through Gods great mercy ) they had bin inspired , and illuminated to see the inconsistency of a●● Monastical life with true Christianity , and the salvation of their souls , and therfore they humbly petitioned his Majestie , by means of his Vicar General in spiritualibus Cromwell , ( who was Earle of Essex , and a black-smiths son of Putney ) to restore them to Christian liberty , and a secular life . And because the Abbots of Glastenbury , Reading , Glocester , and many others would not subscribe to this instrument , nor by their approbation therof declare that S. Austin the Monk and Apostle of England ( who converted the Saxons to Christian Religion ) professed a life inconsistent with Christianity , they were cruely tormented and put to death . The same tyrany was executed vpon all sorts of people without distinction of age , sex or quality , and amongst them suffered also Sir Thomas Moore Lord Chancelor of England , and Cardinal Fisher Bishop of Rochester , two of the greatest ornaments of that age , for refusing the oath of the Kings supremacy . And for that S. Thomas of Canterbury , alias Becket , had opposed K. Henry 2. Laws , made rather against the exercise , then the right of the Popes spiritual authority in England ; and therfore was Kill'd by some officious Courtiers , and honoured as a Martyr by the Catholick Church ; and his Sanctity , and Martyrdom had bin confirmed by most authentick Miracles ( which also confirmed the Popes spiritual supremacy and jurisdiction and condemned King Henry 8. vanity ) he without feare of God , or regard of the world , cited a Saint reigning in heaven , to appeare and heare vpon earth his sentence ; which was , to have his reliques burn't , the treasure of his Church , and shrine confiscated , and all those declared Traytors that would call him Saint , or celebrat his feast , or permit his name to remain in the Kalendars of theyr Books of Devotion . He also prohitited his subjects to call the Bishop of Rome Pope , and every one who had S. Cyprian , S. Ambrose , S. Hierom , S. Austin , S. Leo or any of the Fathers works , was commanded to write in the first leafe therof , that they renounced those Saints doctrin of the Popes supremacy . Not content with these extravagancies at home , he sent Embassadours to solicit Princes abroad ( and in the first place to Francis 1. of France ) that they might follow his example in assuming the supremacy ; and albeit the Pope was either agreed or engaged in a Treaty with Charles 5. to the prejudice of France , yet that Christian King would not as much as hear Henry 8. Ambassadours speak of his imitating their Master in assuming to him-self the supremacy . And even the Protestant Princes of Germany , to whom the Ambassadours repaired after that their negotiation had bin rejected by the French King , told them they were sorry K. Henry 8. did not ground his reformation vpon a more religious foundation , then his scandalous passion for Anne Bullen . And the first protestant Reformers abroad ( part of whose design was to get all spiritual jurisdiction rather into their own hands then into the hands of their temporal Soveraigns ) were much troubled at K. Henry's supremacy , and Calvin writ a smart though short treatise against it , and no Protestants make a lay Prince spiritual head of a Church , but our English Prelaticks . Notwithstanding that the lateness of the discovery together with K. Henry 8 motives of his supremacy made it so incredible that no Catholick Soveraign would assume to him-self that prerogative , nor any forraign Protestants approve therof , yet his cruelty made most of his English subjects swear that , which neither themselves nor the world could believe ; for had it bin any way probable by Scripture , History , or Tradition , that temporal Soveraigns ( as such ) are spiritual Superiours , how is it possible that all Christian Princes before Henry 8. should be so short-sighted , and stupid in their own interest , and in a matter of so great consequence , as not to see a thing so obvious , and aduantagious ? How careless in their own concerns , were Charls 5. Francis 1. and many other Princes their Predecessours , who after having bin provoked , and exasperated by some Roman Bishops , so far as to think it necessary to invade their Teritories , sack Rome , and imprison their persons , yet at the same tyme did acknowledg that spiritual supremacy which gave so much advantage , power , and credit to their enimy ? Without doubt the same forces which had bin employed against the Popes person , and temporal power , would not have spared or favored his spiritual jurisdiction ; he would have bin forc't to renounce his primacy had not the world , and they who subdued him , bin fully satisfied that it was no human donation , but divin institution . Though these reasons were convincing , and the example of Charls 5. spiritual subjection and submission to his subdued prisoner Pope Clement 7. was fresh in King Henry 8. memory , and that he knew never any Catholick Princes pretended it was a prerogative of soveraignty , to share with the Pope in the Ecclesiastical government of the soules of their subjects ( though many clamed as a priviledg granted by the Roman Sea , the liberty to examin and approue the authentikness of Papal censures and injunctions ) and that his passion for Anne Bullen was turned into hatred , for her proued incest , and adultery ; yet his pride and wilfulness was so excessiue , that rather then acknowledg his former error by a formal recantation , he continued to exercise his scandalous supremacy so violently , that he devised Articles of Religion , made Cromwel his Vicar-general in spiritual affairs took upon him to define what was heresy , what Catholick faith ; permitted the Scriptures to be translated by heretiks , and read in English , and ( to vexe the Pope ) countenanced , and connived at any novelties ; though afterwards he burn't the novelists for heretiks , and prohibited ( when it was too late ) their Translations of Scripture , and other Books which he had formerly permitted . But seing that notwithstanding his severity , the Sacramentarian heresy , which he most of all hated , did increase in his Kingdom , and that the spiritual sword in his lay hand did not work those effects which it , had don when it was managed by the Bishops of Rome ( by whose sole authority all the heresies of the first 300. years were condemned and suppressed without the help of a general Councel ) and that the Keys which he had usurped served rather to open the doors of the English Church to all errors , then shut them out ; and perceiving his end draw neer , he began to think of a reconciliation with Rome , but such a one as might sute with his humor , which he termed Honour . Therfore he sent his favorit Bishop Gardener to the Jmperial Diet , with privat instructions , to endeavour in such a manner his return to the unity and obedience of the Church ( through the mediation of the Catholick Princes of Germany , and of the Pop's Legat ) that on King Henrys side it might look more like a princely condescend●ncy then a penitent conversion ; wherunto he seemed to incline at the solicitation rather of others , then moved by a detestation of his own errors ? But God with whom none must dally , nor Princes capitulat , summon'd him to an account sooner then was imagined . Whether he repented , or despaired at his death , is vncertain . Some say his last words were omnia perdidimus , all is lost . In his last will and Testament he named 16. Tutors for his Son , to govern , during his minority , with equall authority ; charging them not to bring in the Sacramentarian Religion . But God permitted his will to be broken before his body was buried ( who had changed the last wills of so many thousands deceased ) and that , but three days after his death ; for upon the 1. of February Seamor Earle of Hartford brother to Ed. 6. Mother , was made Protector of the King and Kingdom , by his own ambition , and privat authority of his faction ( which prevailed amongst the 16. Executors ) without expecting any Parliament , or consent to the Realm for so great a charge , or for the change of religion which immediatly followed . And because Wriothesly Earle of Southampton Lord Chancelor , the Earle of Arundel , and Bishop Tonstall , and some others , would not betray their trust , and opposed the new reformation , they were disgraced and displaced . SVBSECT I. Of the English Religion , and Reformers in King Edward VI. reign . THe Earle of Hartford , newly created Duke of Somerset and Lord Protector of England , was a man fitter to be governed , then to govern : his judgment was weak , but himself very wilfull , and so blindly resolut in commanding and executing the designs of others , by whom he was guided , that without perceiving it , he was made the instrument of his own ruin , as wel as of his brothers ; and of the yong King also by the chang of the ancient Religion . Dudley Earle of Warwick was his director both in Church and state affairs , and yet was his greatest enemy ; which Somerset had not the wit to see , though all the world knew him to be his Competitor . And albeit Dudly had bin always a Roman Catholick in his judgment , yet ( as most Polititians do ) he dissembled his belief , and yet ●oothed the Protector in his inclination to the protestant reformation , not doubting but that having once intoxicated the people with the liberty and inconstancy therof , he might lead them from the contempt of spiritual authority to rebel against the temporal , and humor so well their mad zeale that for their new Ghospel's preservation and propagation , they would fix vpon him for their Director , and stick to whom he would appoint for their Soveraign . He was not deceived in his expectation , the Protector Seamour was destroyed ; Dudly himself made chief Minister of England ; the King poysoned ; the Princess Mary excluded , the Lady Jane Gray declared Queen ( because she was a Protestant ) and marryed to Dudlys Son. All which things he compased in a short tyme , though by degrees , as you shall hear . No sooner was K. Henry 8. dead , but Dudly Earle of Warwick advised Somerset to take vpon him the Protectorship , and ( to make him odious ) by his privat authority to alter the publick profession of faith ; and because he knew so notorious a fraud could not be effected without force , he devised with the Protector , the journy of Musselborough field , and the war of Scotland , vnder pretence of gaining by force the yong Queene of Scots to marry K. Edward 6. but in reality to get the power of the Militia into his own hands , and therby to settle in England a Religion wherby he might ( in due tyme ) vpon the score of a refin'd reformation , vnsettle the government , and alter K. Henry 8. Testament , and persuade England that his Daughter Marys reign would eclipse the light of the ghospel , which then began to shine . After that he had made the Protector so odious , that none could endure to hear his name , or to live vnder his government , he thought it a proper tyme to establish by Parliament that new profession of faith , which he knew could not be effected without the consent and concurrence of that great Assembly . And though he was not ignorant of the absurdities contained in the best of the new reformations , yet because since the setlement of the spiritual headship of our Kings , he perceived the common people might be led any way , and that an Act of Parliament was held sufficient to make them believe the ancient Christian Religion was profane ; and that any protestant reformation was the primitive and Apostolick faith ; he wrought so much by the feare of the army and the Kings authority , that albeit in the first Parliament and year of Edward 6. reign , nothing more could be obtained in favour of Protestancy , but an indemnity for the preachers therof from penalties enacted by the ancient laws against married Priests , and Heriticks ; and a repeal of the English Statuts confirming the Imperial Edicts against heresies ; yet in the second year , and Parliament of Edward the VI. It was carried ( though by few votes , and after a long debate of aboue four months ) that the Zuinglian , or Sacramentarian reformation should be the Religion of England . The charge of framing Articles of this Religion , as also of composing the Liturgy , and a book of rits , ceremonies , and administration of Sacraments , had bin commited to Thomas Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury , and to some other Protestant Divins , who were all married friars , and Priests , lately come out of Germany , with their sweet-hearts , viz. Hooper , and Rogers , Monks ; Couerdale , an Augustin friar ; Bale a Carmelite ; Martin Bucer a Dominican ; Bernardin Ochinus a Franciscan ; and Peter Martyr a Chanon Regular ; these three last were invited by the Protector , and appointed to preach and teach in both the Vniversities ; and at London ; and were to agree with the rest in the new model and form of Religion ; which was a matter of great difficulty ; because the Tenets which vntil then they had professed , were irreconciliable . H●●per , and Rogers were fierce Zuinglians , that is , Puritans or Presbiterians ; and with them was joyned in faction against Cranmer , Ridly , and other Prelaticks ( for that they opposed his pretension to the Bishoprick of Worcester ) Hugh Latimer , of great regard with the common people . Couerdale , and Bale , were both Lutherans ; and yet differed , because the one was a rigid , the other a mild , or half Lutheran . Bucer also had professed a kind of Lutheranism in Germany , but in England was what the Protector would have him to be , and therfore would not for the space of a whole yeare , declare his opinion in Cambridg ( though pressed to it by his Schollers ) concerning the real presence , vntil he had heard how the Parliament had decided that controversy at London ; and then he changed his opinion and became a Zuinglian . The same tergiversation was used by Peter Martyr at Oxford , and so ridiculously , that coming sooner , in the first Epistle to the Corinthians ( which he vndertook to expound ) to the words Hoc est Corpus meum , then it had bin determined in Parliament what they should signifie , the poore friar , with admiration and laughter of the University , was forc't to divert his Auditors with impertinent Comments vpon the precedent words , Accipite , manducate , fregit & dixit &c. which needed no explanation . And when the news was come , that both houses had ordered they should be vnderstood figurativly , and not literaly , Peter Martyr said he admired how any man could be of an other opinion , though he knew not the day before what would be his own . But as for Bucer , he was a concealed Jew , or Atheist , for being asked confidently his opinion of the Sacrament by Dudly Duke of Northumberland , in the presence of the Lord Paget then a Protestant ( who testified the same publickly afterwards ) he answered , that the real presence could not be denied if men believed that Christ was God , and spoke the words : This is my Body ; but whether all was to be belived which the Evangelists writ of Christ , was a matter of more disputation . Bernardin Ochinus dyed a Jew in his opinion , he writ a book to assert the lawfulness of having many wives at once ; this together with his profession of the Mosaick law at his death , proved that he was but a counterfeit Protestant . Cranmer was a meer Contemporiser , and of no Religion at all . Henry VIII . raised him from Chaplain to Sr. Thomas Bullen , to be Arch-bishop of Canterbury , to the end he might divorce him from Q. Catharin , and marry him to An' Bullen ; afterwards by the Kings order he declared to the Parliament , that to his knowledg Anne Bullen was never lawfull wife to his Majesty when he married the King to An of Cleves ; and when the King was weary of her , Cranmer declared this marriage also nul ; and married , and vnmarried him so often , that he seemed rather to exercise the Office of a Pimp then the function of a Priest , which ( to requite one courtesy for an other ) made the King connive at his keeping a wench , and at some of his opinions , though contrary to the Statut of the 6. Articles . In King Henry VIII . days he writ a Book for the Real presence , in King Edwards 6. days , he writ an other Book against the real presence . He conspired with the Protector Somerset to overthrow K. Henry 8. will and Testament ; and afterwards conjured with Dudly to ruin the Protector . He joyned with Dudly and the Duke of Suffolk against Q. Mary for the lady Jane Grey , and immediatly after with Arundell , Shreusbury , Pembrouk , Page● , and others against the same Duke . Finaly when he was condemned in Q. Maries reign for treason and heresy ; and his treason being pardoned , hoping the same favor might be extended to his heresy , he recanted and abjured the same ; but seing the temporal laws reserved no mercy for relapsed hereticks ( who are presumed not to be truly converted or penitent ) he was so exasperated therby , that at his death ( moved more by passion then conscience ) he renounced the Roman Catholick Religion , to wich he had so lately conformed . These were the men who framed the 39. Articles of Religion the Liturgy and the Book of Sacraments , rits , and ceremonies of the Protestant Church of England : and though it may seem incredible that a Iew , an Atheist , a Contemporiser or meer Polititian , a Presbiterian , a rigid Lutheran , half-Lutheran and an Anti-Lutheran , or Sacramentarian , should all agree to make one Religion , yet when men do but dissemble , and deliver opinions to please others , and profit themselves ▪ and have no Religion at all , they may without difficulty concurr in some general points of Christianity , and frame negative articles impugning the particular truths therof . This was the case of the Church of England . For though Hooper , and Rogers were prity obstinat in the Presbiterian , or Zuinglian doctrin of the Sacrament , and prevailed therin so far by the Protectors countenance , as to reform the common praier-Book , and to confound the caracter of Episcopacy with single Presbitery , as if there had bin no real distinction between both , nor no imposition of Episcopal hands required for either , but only a bare election of the Congregation , or Magistrat ; yet rather then loose the revenues of benefices , and Bishopricks , they were content ( contrary to their solemn confederacy ) to connive at the Episcopal disciplin , and ceremonious decency of surplises , square Caps , and Rochets ; The names of Priests and Bishops they were content to admit of in the common praier-Book , so the caracter were not mentioned in their new form of ordaining them , but rather declared not to be of divin institution , nor a Sacrament : In like manner Hooper at length condescended to take the Oath of supremacy , and conformed thervnto his conscience , when the Bishoprick of Worcester was added to his former of Glocester , though vntil then he agreed with Calvin in impugning the Kings ' spiritual headship . As Hooper condescended to the Kings ' Supremacy , to the Prelatick disciplin , and ceremonies , so Cranmer and his prelatick party condescended to the Presbiterian doctrin because they were indifferent for any that would alow them wenches , and not deprive them of their revenues . And as for Ochinus the Jew , Bucer the Atheist , and the rest of the protestant Divines , their vots as wel as their livelyhoods depended of Cranmer his wil and pleasur . Besids Cranmer perceived the Protector inclined to Zuinglianism , and the Presbiterian doctrin , and therfore resolved to accomodat the doctrin of the Church of England to his humour . Hooper and Rogers agreed vpon an ecclesiastical Government inconsistent with Monarchy ; which was , that over every 10. Churches or Parishes in England there should be a learned Superintendent appointed , who should have faithful readers vnder him , and that all Popish Priests should clean be put out : And to draw all publick matters of state and Religion to them-selves , they composed a Treatise to prove : That it is lawful for any privat man to reason and writ against a wicked Act of Parliament , and vngodly Councel , &c. see Fox pag. 1357. col . 1. num . 72. And Hoopers prophecy against the Prelatick protestants for not conforming them-selves to his Puritan and Presbiterian disciplin . pag 1356. And of his contention with Cranmer and other Prelatick protestants about the oath of Supremacy &c. Fox , pag. 1366. Both Cranmer and Ridly , made apear to the Protector and Councel , that Hoopers Presbiterian disciplin was not consistent with the Constitution of Parliaments ; and the refusal of the oath of Supremacy to be of dangerous consequence , in a tyme that Deuenshir Northfolk , and many other Shires had taken arms in defence of the Roman Catholick faith . It was further considered that so sudain a change from on extreme to an other in matters of religion ( as it would have bin , from ceremonious Popery to plain Pre●bitery ) was against the rules of policy ▪ therfore seing the people had bin so long accustomed to the Mass , and to Ecclesiastical ceremonies , it was judg'd expedient to make the vulgar sort believe , the chang was not of Religion , but of language ; that the common prayr was the Mass in English ; that the substance of the Catholick faith was retained in the Prelatick caps , copes , and surplises ; and what alteration there seem'd to be , was but of things indifferent , or petty circumstances ; and had bin resolved vpon by the King and Parliament more to preserve vniformity , then to promote novelty ; as may be seen by any that wil observe the words of the statuts confirming the common prayr book , administration , rits , ad ceremonies of the Sacrament . 2. Ed. 6.1 . and the Councels letter to the Bishops recited by Fox , pag. 1184. col . 1. Whereof long tyme there had bin in this Realm of England divers forms of common prayer . And where the Kings Majesty hath hereto fore divers tyms assayed to stay innovations , or new rits . To the intent that an vniform , quiet , and godly order should be had concerning the premises , hath appointed the Archbishop of Canterbury should draw and make one convenient and meet order of common Prayer and administration of Sacraments to be vsed in England , Wales , &c. The which at this tyme by the ayde of the holy Ghost , with vniform agreement is of them concluded , &c. in the Statut. But in very deed the whole substance of Catholick Religion was changed , and nothing retained but so much therof as seemed necessary to keep the name of Christians , and had not bin rejected by most of the ancient condemned hereticks , as shal appeare by our obseruations vpon the 39. ensuing articles of Religion of the Church of England . SECT . V. Of the 39. Articles of the Church of England . WHosoever consider●● these 39. Articles of Religion composed by Cranmer , and his Divines , may easily perceive their drift was rather to humour factions at home , and dissenting Protestants abroad ▪ to countenance sensuality , and grant a liberty of not believing the particulars of Christianity , then to instruct men in the doctrin of Christ or to prescribe any certain rule of Faith. For , their method is , to word so the matter of the Articles , that where Protestants disagree among themselves , every one of the dissenting parties may apply the Text to his own sense . In so much that the Presbiterians except not against the doctrins themsel-ves rightly explained ( that is according to their explanation ) but against the wording and expressions therof , which ( say they ) are ambiguous , and capable of more senses then one , and so may be , and are wrested to patronise errors . In the mistery of the real presence they speak clearly against it , because it was resolved in Parliament , That England should be Zuinglian in that point , against the Catholick faith of Transsubstantiation . Wherfore after Cranmer and the other his Contemporisers had set down in five of their six first Articles , the belief of the Trinity , Incarnation , Passion , and Resurrection , wherof no Protestants then doubted ; they dare not declare themselves ( in the third , wheein they speak of Christ descent into Hell ) whether it was to that of the damned , or to a third place ; for that if they denyed the first , they would have offended Calvin ; Jf they denyed the last , they were sure to disoblige some Lutherans that admitted of Lymbus , or a third place . In the sixt Article they free all men from an obligation of believing any thing that is not read in Scripture , or proved therby , and make it their ownly rule of faith , and themselves the Judges therof : wherin they agree (a) with the ancient Hereticks , Arians , Donatists , Eunomians , Nestorians &c. But for that some Protestant doctrins are expresly reproved by many Parts of Scripture , they make those parts Apocrypha , because , forsooth , they were doubted of ▪ by some Churches in the primitive tymes . And truly if a man will reflect vpon these words of th●ir sixt Article , We do vnderstand those Canonical Books of the ould and new Testament , of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church , he may cleerly see that they believe many parts of the new Testament not to be Canonical Scripture , because many parts therof have bin doubted of in the Church before the Canon was determined . See after , part . 2. In the 7. they only declare that Christians are not bound to observe the ceremonial , but only the moral law of Moyses . In the 8. they tel vs of foure Creeds ( wherof S. Athanasius his symbol is one ) are to be believed ; because they may be proved by Scripture ; and yet S. Athanasius himself declared in ●he Councel of Nice that the doctrin of his Symbol , that is , the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation , could not be proved by Scripture alone , (b) or without Tradition . In the 9. and 10. Article they (c) follow the heretick Proclus , the Messalians , Zuinglius , Luther , and Calvins doctrin concerning Original sin . In the 11. Article they teach with some of the (d) Pseudo-Apostles , with Eunomius , and with the same Zuinglius , Luther and Calvin , that men are justified by faith alone . See herafter of the justification by only faith , how inconsistent with any solicitude or care for good works . And in the 12. would faine ( but in vaine ) free themselves and their Doctrin from the aspersion of neglecting good works though they maintain them not to be necessary for justification . In the 13. Article they say all virtuous moral actions of men ●hat are not in grace , have the nature of sin ; And in the 14. they follow Eunomius , Vigilantius , Helvidius , Jovinian , Faustus , and Ebion hereticks , saying : that works of supererogation ( that is , not commanded but councel'd by God ) cannot be taught without arogancy and impiety ; and yet Christ taught them , and S. Paul commends them . In the three subsequent Articles they seeme to agree with all Christians : But in the 19. they differ from all Catholicks , And as the Arians did maintain the fallibility of the Nicen Councel , and the Donatists the fal or invisibility of the whole Church , ●o do Protestants ; and therby open a wide gap for all heresies . In the 20. they contradict themselves , and the former articles by saying that the Church hath power and authority to decree controversies of faith ; for there can be no authority in a Church to decree or define matters of faith , without there be in the faithful an obligation of conscience to submit and conform their judgments to the said Decrees and definitions ; and s●ure there can be no obligation of conscience in any man to submit or conform his judgment in points of faith to a Church that doth acknowledg it self may err therin , and lead men to heresy , idotry and damnation . True it is that the Protestant Church of England can never remedy it's want of authority , vnless it pretends to infallibility ; and that , now can hardly be don ; seing in the 2● . Article next ensuing , it denys that same prerogative to general Councels , which are of greater authority then our English Convocations . In the 22. Article Cranmer and his Associats ( because all other Sects of Protestants do the same ) speak cleerly against the Roman Catholick doctrin of Purgatory , Pardons , worshiping of Images , Reliques , and invocation of Saints ; and are pleased to censure it a fond thing , invented and grounded vpon no waranty of Scripture , but rather repugnant to the word of God : as if , forsooth , the Jews , Atheists , and Apostata Friars who composed these 39. Articles , knew better the right sense of the word of God , then the whole Catholick Church , and the general Councels which practised , and thaught the Roman doctrin , and the lawfulness of these things , and condemned the contrary as heresy . These errors were rays'd by Aërius n. 342· Xenaias and other hereticks : Aërius because he was refused a Bishoprick , taught that Episcopacy was not distinct from single Priesthood ; He denyed Prayrs and masses for the Dead ought to be offerred , and by consequence the doctrin of Purgatory ; as also that the Church could command men to fast , but that every man might fast when he thought fit Xenaias was the first who made war against Images· Vigilantius against Reliques , praying to Saints &c. S. Hierom. ad Ripar . & Desider . Presbiteros : Vigilantius orsus est subito , qui contra Christi spiritum , Martyrum n●gat sepulchra veneranda , damnatqae Sanctorum Vigilias ; ex quo fit vt Dormitantius potiùs quam Vigilantius vocari debeat . Haeretici assumunt sibi linguas suas , vt cordis venena ore pronuncient . O proescindendam itaque linguam , & in partes & frusta lacerandam ? meam injuriam patienter tuli , impietatem contra Deum ferre non valui . S. Hierom laughs at the folly of Vigilantius the heretick , and cals him Dormitantius , for being in these points a Protestant ; and says that his tongue ought to be cut and carved into a thousand pieces for blaspheming against God in his Saints . And truly it is a hard case that Scripture should warrant our worshiping of Prophets , or recommending our selves to the Prayers of Saints , when they convers with vs vpon earth ; and yet that it should not be lawful for vs to do the same when they ar in heaven ; as if their enjoying the presence and sight of God , did diminish their dignity , or charity . Or as if a Saint in Gods glory were not as fit an object and as capable of our Religious worship as a Prophet , Apostle or Bishop is in this world , to whom we kneel out of the religious respect we own to their spiritual caracter , or Ecclesiastical dignity , though their natural qualities deserve not such respect . My-Lord of Canterbury ( they say ) commends very (e) much the religious piety of some Ladys for craving his benediction vpon their knees ; which reverence is not exhibited by them , nor expected by him , as he is M·r Sheldon ; but as he pretends to be Archbishop of Canterbury . And if it be not only lawful but comendable to kneel to his Grace , or at least to others who are true Bishops , and to shew a religious respect of the like nature to his picture or presence ; and that all this may bee don without daunger of Idolatry , or of derogating from the Deity ; I see no reason why men should condemn in vs , the like worship of Saints in their Images , or Reliques . It is not the outward action , but the inward intention that maks the worship unlawful . So long as we do not adore Images as Gods , or Idols , we may bow and kneel to them with as much ceremony , as Protestants do to their Prelats , or Episcopal pictures . The simplest Papist can hardly be so stupid by nature , or at least so destitut of instruction , as to believe a stock or stone , can be God ; or that there is no difference between the worship due to Saints , ( whom they know to be but Gods servants ) and the worship due to their Master and Creator . The 23. Article is set down in such general and ambiguous terms that neither Presbiterian nor Prelatick Clergy is therby established ; nor any caracter of Priesthood , or Episcopacy asserted , but according to the doctrin of all the first Reformers , a private ministery of preaching , and baptising insinuated to be common to all Christians . Be you most certain , saith Luther lib. de Captiv . Babylon . and let every-man ( who is a Christian ) know that we are all equaly Priests , that is , we have the same power to preach , and administer the Sacraments . The same doctrin teacheth Zuinglius and Caluin . Though ( to avoyd confusion ) it be not lawful for any man to take vpon him the office of publick preaching , or ministring the Sacraments in the Congregation , before he be lawfully caled , and sent to execute the same . And because in the 25. Article they declare it is not necessary that this caling or ministery be ordination by imposition of Bishop's hands , or by Apostolical succession , and by consequence , may be extraordinary vocation , or election , they leave the authority of caling as doubeful as not determining whether the power be in the secular Magistrat , or in the ecclesiastical Congregation ▪ albe●● they seeme ( by virtue of the English Supremacy ) to place it in the King ; their words are , And those we ought to judg lawfuly caled and sent , which be caled and chosen to this work by men who have publick authority given vnto them in ( not by ) the Congregation , to call and send Ministers into the Lords vineyeard . So that they seem to place all spirtiual authority and jurisdiction in the Kings , and reserve only the application therof , and the choice of the persons authorised , to themselves . But they were loath to explain their meaning in this particular , for feare of scandalizing their brethren abroad , that admit of no such Supremacy in temporal Princes . In the 24. Article they make it a point of the Protestant faith , that Scripture expresly commands the publick prayers and ministring of the Sacraments not to be in Greek , Latin , or Hebrew ( wherin the Scriptures were written ) because the common people vnderstand not these languages , but vnder pain of damnation must be in English , Dutch , Irish , Welsh , &c. as if , forsooth , it were not lawful for a Priest or publick Minister , to offer Sacrifice , or negotiat for a multitude of iliterat people in languages they do not vnderstand ; or as if it were not sufficient for them to vnderstand , that in publick or privat prayers , they thank God for his benifits , and crave new favours . So that according to this Article , a Greek Priest cannot offer publick prayers for the Latins , or even his own Grecians , who vnderstand not the learned Greeck , nor a latin Priest for the Grecians , or any other nation that vnderstands not Latin ; neither is it sufficient that God who alone is able to grant what is demanded , vnderstand the petition , and heare the publick Minister , but it is necessarily required that the demand be made in a barbarous language , because the common people vnderstand no other . In the 25. Article they cut of five of the seaven Sacraments , as not being Sacraments of the Ghospel , or ordained by Christ ; this extravagancy of doctrin was thought necessary for the disciplin of the protestant Churches , which despairing of a succession of true Bishops , excluded the Episcopal Caracter , and all Sacraments that had dependency therof . In the 26. Article they endeavour to excuse their own lewdness and liberty ( though by inculcating truth ) to wit , that the effects of the Sacraments are not taken away , by the defects of the Ministers . In the 27. they condemn ( against their own principle in the 6. Article ) their Brethren the Anabaptists , for not baptizing their children : which error cannot be confuted by Scripture without Tradition . In the 28. they tel vs it is plain in Scripture that when Christ sayd This is my Body , he meant This is not my Body , and therfore that Transsubstantiation cannot be proved by holy Writ : if they can prove by Scripture that Christ means the contrary of what he speaks we shal confess that neither transsubstantiation nor any other thing can be proved by holy Writ , but only this , that Scripture cannot be vnderstood , nor be a rule of faith . They add that the mean , wherby the Body of Christ is spiritualy received and taken in the supper , is faith . To receive , and eat spiritualy the Body of Christ ( if it signifies any thing ) must signifie that we ought to believe that the Body of Christ is received and eaten . And if this belief be true ( as it must , if it be Divine ) then Christ's Body is realy received and eaten , though in a spiritual manner , that is in a manner not perceptible by our senses . The 29. Article is but a quotation of some words of S. Augustin . The 30. Article seems to have bin altered ( as also the 37. of the supremacy ) in Q. Elizabeths reign ; because as we find it now , it contradicts not only the doctrin of the chief Protestant [f] Reformers ( who acknowledg that the Communion vnder both Kinds was always a thing indifferent ) but also the statut made in Edwards 6. reign , and a little before this article was framed . The statut 1. Edward 6. cap. 1. ordains indeed that the B. Sacrament be commonly delivered to the people vnder both kinds , but addeth , except necessity otherwise require . And certainly there can be no necessity , or possibility for any human power to dispense with Christ's ordinance and commandment , which this 30. Article says was , ( contrary to what the statut supposed ) that both kinds should be administred to all Christian men alike . Besids , the statut doth in the end declare that by what it commands , it doth not condemn the vsage of any Church out of the King his Majesties Dominions ; which limitation doth demonstrat that the Parliament and English Protestants then believed the communion of the layty vnder both kinds , not to be a precept or determination of Christ , but an indifferent thing left to the discretion of the Church : neither have our modern Protestants ( who grant no other substance in the Sacrament but that of bread and wine , whervnto they add nothing but a remenbrance of Christ's passion ) any reason to vpraid vs with robing them of half the communion , seing we exhort the layty to that remembrance , and offer them wine after receiving the species of bread . In their 31. Article we are tould that the Sacrifices of Masses ( in the which it was commonly sayd that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead , to have remission of pain or guilt ) are blasphemous fables , and dangerous deceits And yet S. Cyprian lib. 2. & 3. versus finem , Et de Coena Domini post med . Concil 1. Toletan . can 8.5 . Origen in numer . hom . 23. August . de Civit. Dei lib. 10. cap. 19. & 20. & passim . S. Clement the Apostles scholler in Apost constit . lib. 6. cap. 22. fol. 113. edit . Antverp . 1564. Concil Nicen. 1. can . 14. Augustinus de cura pro mortuis cap. 14. & in Enchirid. cap. 110. &c. Tertul. ad Scapul . cap. 2. Chrisost. hom . 27. in act Apost . S. Clemens lib. 8. Const. Apost . cap. 18. fol. 173. & 174. edit . Antverp 1564. Augustin . de Civit. Dei lib 22. cap. 8. Ciprian . de Coena Dom. prope initium S. Ignatius the Apostles Scholler in Epist. ad Smirn. S. Augustin . lib. 9. Confes. cap. 12. & in Enchirid. cap. 110. & de verb. Apost . serm 34. Saith that the sacrifice of our price was offered for his Mother Monica , being dead ; and that it is not to be doubted , but that the soules of the dead are relieved by the piety of their living friends , when for them is offered the sacrifice of the Mediator : and that the vniversal Church doth observe , as delivered from our Forefathers , that for those who are dead in the Communion of Christ's Body and Bloud when in the tyme of sacrifice they be remembred in their place , prayer is made for them ; and ( besids this prayer ) it is remembred the sacrifice be offered ▪ for them also &c. S. Ambrose maks express mention of the Mass lib. 5. epist. 33. Ego mansi in munere , Missam facere coepi &c. S. Leo epist. 81. ad Dioscor . Necesse autem est vt quaedam Populi pars sua devotione privetur , si vnius tantum Missae more servato , &c. S. Augustin . serm . 91. de Temp. In lectione ( quae nobis ad Missas legenda est ) audituri sumas . &c. Let any Christian be judg whether it be not more safe , and more rationa●l● to rely in matters of faith vpon the Tradition of the whole Catholick Church , and it 's ancient Liturgies , and vpon the Testimony of all the holy Fathers , and Councels since the Apostles , then to take the bare word of Cranmer , a man who married and vnmarried K. Henry 8. to as many women as his Majestie lik't or dislik't , dissolving the holy Sacrament of Matrimony as often as the King seemed to be weary of a wife ; a man , whose religion was nothing but his conveniency and incontinency ; and therfore did alter his faith as often as the tyms changed , and factions prevailed , and sided with every Rebel against his Prince ; and was so carnaly given that even in Henry 8. days , when Priests were not permitted to have wives , he kept a wench so constantly , that he carried her about in his Visitations : Let any Christian I say be judg whether this man together with Ochinus a Jew , Bucer an Atheist , Peter Martyr so indifferent for any doctrin , that he framed his faith at Oxfor● , according to the news from London , and the Parliament Diurnals ; Hooper , Rogers , and Latimer , ambitious and discontented Presbiterians , B●le , and Coverdale , two lewd and runigad friars ; whether I say , these men ought to be believed in this important point of salvation , rather then the holy Fathers , and Councels , who ( as hath bin● said hertofore ) cal the Mass the visible Sacrifice , the true Sacrifice , the dayly Sacrifice , the Sacrifice according to the Order of Melchisadech ; the Sacrifice of the Body and Bloud of Christ , the Sacrifice of the Altar , the Sacrifice of the Church , and the Sacrifice of the new Testament , which succeeded all the Sacrifices of the old Testament : Must the word of Cranmer and his fellows be a sufficient ground for prudent men to believe as an Article of Religion , that the doctrin delivered as Catholick by the holy Fathers , and Doctors of the Church , are but fables , and themselves but a company of Cheats . The 32. Article was made by Cranmer and his Camerades to excuse their lewdness , legitimat their bastards , and make their wenches wives . The second Parliament of King Edward 6. had bin so importuned by Apostata Priests and Friars , who had coupled themselves with women , that ( their petition having bin rejected by the first Parliament Edward 6. ) at lengh against the inclination and judgment of both houses , they obtained now by meer importunity an Act to take away all positive Laws of man , made against the marriage of Priests statut an . 2. Edward 6. cap. 21. But then they are told in the very Act , that it were not only better for Priests to live chast sole and separat from the company of women &c. but that it were most to be wished that they would willingly and of themselves endeavour to keep a perpetual chastity , and abstinence from the vse of women . And 1400. years before that , Origen Hom. 23. & lib. 8. contra Celsum declared the doctrin even of the Greeck Church in these words . Jt is certain the dayly Sacrifice is hindred in them who serve the necessities of mariage ; therfore it seemeth to me that it appertaineth only to him to offer the dayly Sacrifice , who hath vowed himselfe to dayly and perpetual chastity ; with whom●agree the other Fathers ; S. Jerom ( in Apologia ad Pamachium , cap. 3. ) desires them who like not of this doctrin , not to be angry with him , ( for telling them of it ) but with the holy Scriptures , vvith all Bishops , Priests &c. vvho know they cannot offer Sacrifice if they vse the Act of mariage ; and said to Vigilantius ( c. 1. ) who in this point also was a Protestant , and seemed to confess his owne frailty . What do the Churches of the East , of Egipt , and of the Apostolick Sea , vvho receive none but unmarried or continent Priests , or if they have vviues , they must cease to be Husbands ? And against Iovinian cap ▪ 19. & 14. & ad Pamachium Apol. cap. 8. Truly thou dost acknowledg that he cannot be a Bishop vvho in that state getts children ; if he be convicted therof he vvil not be taken for a Husband , but condemned as an Adulterer . But it seems out Protestant Bishops know the Scripture , and the doctrin and disciplin of the primitive Church better then S. Hierom , Origen , and all the ancient Fathers and Councels both of the East and West . Since the King 's most happy restauration they were not content to enjoy their wives , and see the legitimacy of their children approved of , but in the first Parliament wherin they were permitted to vote ( as I have bin credibly informed ) they at●empted the house of Lords should declare their spiritual peerage did communicat the same honours and privileges to their Ladys , that the law doth give to Baron's wives ; but seing the house smile at the motion , and one of the first Peers begin to rally ( according to his witty way ) vpon a subject so proper for his genius , one of the Bishops not so much concerned in the suit , ( because he was not married ) in the name of all the rest , waved the pretention by saying , there had bin a mistake in the motion . Jn the two following articles , they would fain prevent diversity of opinions and schisms among the Protestants of the Church of England , and gain authority for the Prelats therof , and reverence for their ceremonies and censures . But this design is frustrated by maintaining the lawfulness of their own revolt , and separation from the Church of Rome , as also the Roman Catholick fallibility and fal from the true Apostolick Religion , without any farther proofe or evidence of so great a fault or frailty , then the fancy and privat interpretation of Scripture of some discontented and dissolute persons pretending divine inspirations , and illuminations for the same , and for their warant to depose their spiritual Superiours , and to reform the doctrin of the whole visible Church ; which reformation they also introduced in so tumultuous and seditious a manner , that none who considers the principles , practises , and circumstances of the chang , can prudently commit his soule to the reformers charg , or condescend to any spiritual jurisdiction and authority in their Successours . For , besids that they have nothing to shew for their presumption , and intrusion , but obscure texts of Scripture , interpreted by them selves in a sense contrary to that of the whole visible ancient Church , that hath bin confirmed by continual and vndeniable Miracles ; they can give no assurance or probability of them selves being or continuing in the right way of saluation , because if all the Roman Catholick Churches did err in doctrin , how can their reformations pretend not to be subject to the same mis-fortun or mistake ? And if the supposed frailty and fallibility of the Church of Rome be a sufficient cause to question and condemn it's authority , how can the Church of England , or any other Protestant congregation exact from their Sectaries , greater respect , and obedience , then the first reformers gave to their Roman Superiours ? Presbiterians , Independents , Quakers , Anabaptists &c. pretend to as pure doctrin , as Divine a Spirit , and as much Scripture against Prelaticks , as Prelaticks do against Papists , and thinck there is as much reason for them to be Iudges of the truth of their own Canon and sense of Scripture , and of the falshood of the Canon and sense of Scripture of the Church of England , as there is for the English Church to make it self judg of the falshood of the Canon and sense of the Church of Rome . As for the authority which the Prelatick religion receives from the laws of the land , that gives but little advantage , seing the Roman Catholick doctrin hath bin confirmed by the temporal laws of every Kingdom , Country and Citty , besor , and at the tyme that Protestancy succeeded , and prevailed ; and yet that legality was not valued by the Reformers . The 35. Article is to authorise some Puritan homilies , as the 2. wherin the danger of idolatry in Popery is much insisted vpon , as if Christians could easily mistake Images for Idols , or Saints for Gods ▪ Jews and Hereticks have often endeavoured to confound the one with the other ▪ Catholicks never . The ancient Fathers , as also the second Councel of Nice have long since declared the Protestant Doctrin against Images to be heresy , and the Councel of Trent confirms the same decree of Nice , and demonstrats how far that the Catholick doctrin of worshiping Images is from any danger of Idolatry . The words of the Councel sess . 25. are : The Images of Christ , of the Virgin Mother of God , and of other Saints are to be had and retained , especialy in Churches ; and that due honour is to be imparted vnto them , not for that any Divinity is to be believed to be in them , or vertue , for which they are to be worshipt or that any thing is to be begg'd of them , or that hope is to be put in them , as in tyms past the Pagans did , who put their trust in Idols ; but because the honour which is exhibited to them , is referr'd to the first pattern which they resemble . So that by the Images which we kiss , and before which we vncover our heads , and kneele , we adore Christ and his Saints , whose likness they beare ; we reverence that which is ratified by the Decrees of Councels , especialy of the second of Nice , against the impugners of Images . In the 36. they make it an Article of Religion , that their new form of ordaining Priests and Bishops is valid , and containeth all things necessary ; but since his Majesty's happy restauration they have judged the contrary , and therfore thought necessary to add thervnto the words Priest and Bishop . Yet this wil not serve their turn , for before they can have a true Clergy , they must change the Caracter of the Ordainers , as wel as the form of ordination : a valid form of ordination , pronounced by a Minister not validly ordained , gives no more caracter then if it had continued invalid , and never bin altered : The present Protestant Bishops , who changed the form of their own Ordination vpon their Adversaries objections of the invalidity therof , might as wel submit to be ordained by Catholick Bishops , as alow ( by altering the from after so long a tyme , and dispute ) that it was not sufficient to make themselves , and their Predecessours Priests or Bishops . In their 37. Article they give a spiritual supremacy to the temporal Soveraign . But because the world laught at that vanity and at the statuts 1. & 8. Eliz. 1. Wherin is declared , that the English Soveraignty is so spiritual as that it may give to any person whatsoever ( whether man or woman , lay or ecclesiastick ) power and authority to exercise any spiritual function , and consecrat Priests and Bishops ) they would fain make vs now believe that they did not attribut to the Queen , and her Successours any power of ministring God's word , or the Sacraments ; notwithstanding that the aforesaid Statuts , yet in force , certify the contrary ; And indeed if none can give what himself hath not , seing the Kings of England can give power and authority to any person watsoever to consecrat Priests and Bishops , and to exercise all kind of spiritual ministery , and jurisdiction concerning God's word , and Sacraments , this power and ministery cannot be denyed to be inherant in themselves . In the 38. and 39. articles they endeavour to supress some errors of the Anabaptists , which necessarily follow from the foundation and principles of Protestancy : for if it be lawfull to deprive men of a spiritual authority and jurisdiction , wherof they are in present possession , and which their Predecessours had peaceably enjoy'd , tyme out of memory , the consequence of the lawfulness to deprive men of their temporal jurisdiction , Dominions , riches , and goods , is evident by a parity of reason : for if peaceable and present possession , confirm'd by a prescription of many ages , be not sufficient to ground right for the Roman Bishop and Clergy to govern souls , and to enjoy the Church livings , ther is no temporal Prince , or person can be secure , or have a right to govern subjects or possess his Dominions . So that by the same warrant wherby Prelatick Protestants have taken from the Pope , and Roman Clergy their spiritual jurisdiction , and temporalities , the Anabaptists and all others may evidently demonstrat , that all goods are common , and no one person can pretend right to Superiority , or any thing he doth possess . SECT . VI. Of the effects which these 39. Articles of Prelatick Protestancy immediatly produced in England , and may produce at any tyme in every state wher such principles are made legal : and how the Roman Catholick Religion was restored by Act of Parliament of Queen Mary . AFter that Prelatick Protestancy had not only bin permitted , but established by Parliament in England , ensued the destruction of many thousand innocent people , as also of the Protector Seamor , and K. Eduard 6. togeather with the exclusion of Q. Mary , and others the lawful Heires of the Crown , and the in trusion of the Lady Jane Grey ( and in her of Dudly's son and family ) vnto the Royal throne . These were effects of Protestancy , not events of fortunc ; they were designs driven and directed by the principles of the Reformation , the like wherof any politick and popular subject may compass as wel as Dudly : witness our late long Parliament , and Oliver Cromwel's proceedings . Though K. Edward 6. was but a Child , and his vncle the Protector no great Polititian , yet they had a grave and wise Councel ; but against the liberty and latitude which men are allow'd by the principles of Protestancy , no conduct can prevail , nor government be safe , as appeareth in many examples , and in our late Soueraign's Reign , and death . Jt's in vain to make particular articles of Religion , or temporal Statuts , if there be a general principle admitted as if it were the word of God , wherby both are rendred vnsignificant . One of the general principles , and indeed the foundation of Prelatick Protestancy , is , that it is lawful for privat men and subjects ( such were all the first Protestant Reformers ) to despise and depose their spiritual Superiours by their own arbitrary interpretations , and applications of Scripture , notwithstanding the peaceable possession , immemorial prescription , legality , and exercise of their sayd Superiour's authority and jurisdiction . From hence it evidently followeth , that if it be lawful to deal thus with spiritual Superiours , it must be as lawful ( a fortiori ) to deal after the same manner , and vpon the same grounds of every privat man's interpretation of Scripture with temporal Superiours . To imagin therfore that by a particular article of Religion , or by an Act of Parliament against Presbiterians , Quakers , Anabaptists , &c. ( in favour of the subject's property to temporal goods , or of the King's prerogatives , and soveraignty ) such mens minds , or mouths wil be stopt from raising tumults , and runing into a rebellion so cleerly waranted by the fundamental principle of the Protestant Reformation , is but a fancy , not to be rely'd vpon by any discreet person . Dudly Earl of Wa●vvick , and afterwards Duke of Northumberland , observing that by this foundation of Protestancy the very ground of Alegiance , and Obedience not only to the spiritual , but also to the civil Magistrat , is vndermin'd ; resolved to make his son King of England , and in order therunto marryed him to the Lady Jane Grey , a Protestant of the bloud royal , not doubting but that they who had renounc'd all subordination unto their spiritual Superiours vnder the pretext of a reformation , would vpon the same score preferr the lady Jane to the Crown before the Princess Mary , a Constant Catholick . Therfore after that he had beheaded the Protector , and poyson'd the King , he crown'd his son's wife , with the concurrence and applause of the Prelatick Clergy , Cranmer , Ridly &c. and with the consent of the Protestant Nobility , and Citty of London . But Protestancy not being at that tyme so deeply rooted , nor so largly spread in the nation , the Catholick Gentry and Commons togeather with Q. Maries great courage , and resolution , quash't this Polititian's design , and brought him to due punishment . Vpon the scaffold he declared that he never had bin a Protestant in his judgment , and only made use of it's profession and principles for temporal ends , as to raise his family , &c. he advertiss't the people of the new Religion's inconsistency with peace and quiet ; that it's Clergy were but Trumpets of sedition : The substance of his speech is set down by D. r Heylin in these words . He admonish'd the spectatours , to stand to the Religion of their Ancestors , rejecting that of later date , which had occasion'd all the misery of the foregoing thurty years ; and that for prevention for the future , if they desir'd to present their souls vnspotted in the sight of God , and were truly affected to their Country , they should expel those tempests of sedition , the Preachers of the reform'd Religion ; that for himself , what soever had otherwise bin pretended , he profess'd no other Religion then that of his Fathers ; for testimony wherof , he appeal'd to his good freind , and ghostly Father the Lord Bishop of Worcester ; and finaly , that being blinded with ambition , he had bin contented to make rack of his conscience by temporising , for which he profess'd himself sincerly repentant , and so acknowledg'd the justice of his death . A Declaration ( saith D. r Heylin ) very vnseasonable , whether true or false ; as that which rendred him less pittied by the one side , and more scorn'd by the other . This is a more Politick then pious observation of D. r Heylin ; would he not have men confess their faults , and profess their ●aith when they are dying ? and would he have them preferr the vanity of the pitty or scorn of the world , when they are to bid the whole world adieu , before the satisfaction and salvation of the soule ? I feare too many of D. r Heylins principles not only deferr until the last houre the profession of the truth , but even then dissemble ; thinking a Declaration and recantation of their errors at that tym● either vnseasonable , or vnpardonable ; and preferr , the vanity of the world's opinion , before the necessity of a conversion vnto the true faith . Q. Marys daunger ended not with Dudlys death , it lasted as long as ther was any man to head the Protestant party , and to put the people in mind of it's principles . First , the Duke of Suffolck , and others , plotted the setting up once more of the Lady Jane Grey , and began the execution therof by their Proclamations against Q. Marys intended mariage with Philip of Spain ; this occasioned the Lady Jan's death . Other zealots of the Protestant Religion concluded a mariage between the Lord Courtny and the Lady Elizabeth ; their plot was discover'd , as also Wyats Rebellion suppress'd ; all these things were don by the advice and assistance of the Protestant Clergy that remained in England , and were commended by such of them as liv'd abroad . D. r John Poinet the last Bishop of Winchester was not only of Wyat's Councel , but continued in his camp vntil he perceiv'd the design would not take ; then he departed telling the Rebels he would pray for their good success . Goodman , and Knox rayled in their Books against the Queen ; and Calvin in his Coment vpon Amos termeth her Proserpine . Goodman hath this expression . Wyat did but his duty , and it was but the duty of all others that profess the Ghospel , to have risen with him for the maintenance of the same . His cause was just , and they were all Traytors that took not part with him . O Noble Wyat ▪ thou art now with God , and those worthy men that dyed in that happy enterprise . This was the primitive spirit , these the first effects of our English Protestancy . Not only the Queen out of a zeal to the Roman Catholick Religion , but the Privy Councel and Parliament moved with a desire of peace ( seing it was moraly impossible to govern people protestantly principl'd ) resolved to restore the ancient doctrin wherwith their Ancestours had so long prosper'd ; and to suppress the Protestant novelties by the rigour of the laws formerly made against heresies , which had bin repeal'd at the instance of the reform'd Preachers , and Prelats , in K. Edward 6. raign . And therfore ( as D. r Bancroft Arch-Bishop of Canterbury confesseth in his book of dangerous positions pag. 63. ) though Q. Mary was a Princess of nature and disposition very mild and inclined to pittie , yet she and her government is taxed with too much severity by them that consider not the nature and consequences of Protestancy . If Tinkers , Taylors , Tapsters , Tanners , and Spinsters , would needs run into the fier for defending the fond inventions of Cranmer , and of other known Temporisers , who could help it ? neither patience nor pains was wanting in the Catholick Clergy to reduce them to the truth ; but their obstinacy , and the vanity of dying Martyrs ( forsooth ) made them preferr their own privat sence of Scripture before that of the whole visible Church . So charitable were the Catholicks , that they delay'd the penalties of such as they could not convert , and connived at them who endeavored to escape by absenting or concealing themselves . And as for Cranmer , Ridly , Latimer , and the other Ringleaders of Protestancy , they had liberty given them to maintain their cause in publick disputations , with the tyme , books , and notaries that themselves desired . How litle they could say for their Religion and Reformation , and how they were convicted of frauds and falsifications , in the planting and propagating therof , may be seen in the third part of this Treatise . But that which most pleased and setled the Kingdom , was the Roman Clergy's resignation of the Church livings to the Crown , and to others that possess'd them . The whole Convocation petition'd to their Majestys , declaring the readyness they were in , to wave their claim , and interest ; and thus conclude . Wherfore preferring the publick good , and quiet of the Kingdom before our own privat commodities , and the saluation of so many souls redeem'd with the precious Bloud of Christ , before any earthly thing whatsoever , and not seeking our own , but the things of Iesus Christ , we do most earnestly and most humbly beseech your Majesties , that you would graciously vouchsaf to interceed in our behalf with the most Reverend Father in God , the Lord Cardinal Pole Legat a latere , from his Holiness , that he would please to setle and confirm the sayd goods of the Church either in whole , or in part , as he thinks most fit , one the present occulants therof , according to the power and faculties committed to him , by the said most Serene Lord the Pope , &c. And for our parts we do both now , and for all tyms comming give consent to all and everything , which by the said Lord Legat shal , in this case , be finaly ordained , and concluded &c. As the Clergy shew'd much zeal and charity in resigning their temporal interest , so did the layty give an eminent proof of Christian humility in acknowledging their schism and heresy by an instrument deliver'd by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament , to Cardinal Pole , craving absolution for their sins and schism , mention'd in the Statut an . 1. & 2. Philip. & Mar. cap. 8. part of which Statut I thought fit to set down a part for an example worthy of imitation , it being credible that they who were Actors in the Changes of Religion , and had experience both of the new and old faith , knew better how things were then carried , and vpon what motives , then any now living . Thus then they petition to the Queen , and King. Wheras since the 20. year of K. Henry 8. of famous memory , Father vnto your Majesty our most natural Soveraign &c. much fals and erroneous doctrin hath bin taught , preacht and written , partly by divers the natural born subjects of this realm , and partly being brought in hither from sundry other foreign Countries , hath bin sow'n , and spread abroad within the same ; by reason wherof as wel the spirituality , as the temporality of your Highness Realms and Dominions have swaru'd from the Obedience of the Sea Apostolick , and declin'd from the vnity of Christ's Church , and so have continued vntil such tyme as your Majesty being first raised vp by God , and set in the seat Royal over vs &c. The Pop's Holiness and the Sea Apostolick sent hither vnto your Majesties ( as vnto persons vndefil'd , and by God's goodness preseru'd , from the common infection aforesaid ) and vnto the whole Realm , the most Reverend Father in God , the Lord Cardinal Pole , Legat a latere , to cal vs home again into the right way from whence we have all , this long while wandred and strayd abroad ; and we after sundry long and grievous plagues , and calamities , seing by the goodness of God , our own errors , have acknowledg'd the same vnto the sayd most Reverend Father , and by him have bin received and embraced , into the vnity and bosom of Christ's Church : and vpon our humble submission and promise made , for a Declaration of our repentance , to repeal and abrogat such Acts and Statuts as had bin made in Parliament since the sayd 20. year of the sayd King Henry 8. against the Supremacy of the Sea Apostolick &c. And because the first occasion and main Motive of our English Protestant Reformation was the pretended nullity of K. Henry 8. and Q. Catharins marriage ; for satisfaction of the world and a discovery of the truth , the Parliament ( wherin sat many both Lords and Commons particularly acquainted with the whole matter , and employ'd in that intrigue ) declare their knowledg and discharg their conscience in the ensuing Act 1. Mariae . An Act of Parliament an . 1. Mariae concerning the fraud and force of King Henry 8. vnlawful divorce from Queen Catharin . FOr as much as truth ( being of her own nature of a most excelent vertue , efficacy , force , and working ) cannot but by process of tyme break out and shew her self , however for a while she may by the iniquity , and frailty of man be suppress'd and kept closs : And being revealed and manifested , ought to be embraced , acknowledged , confessed and professed in all cases and matters , whatsoever , and whomsoever they touch or concern without respect of persons ; but in such cases and matters , especialy as wherby the glory and honour of God in heaven ( who is the Author of Truth , and truth it self ) is to be specialy set forth , and wherby also the honour , Dignity , surety , and preservation of the Prince , and the Ruler vnder God in earth , dependeth and the welfare , profit , and special benefit of the vniversal people and body of a Realm is to be continued , and maintained . We , your Highness most loving , faithful and obedient subjects , vnderstanding the very truth of the state of Matrimony between the two most excelent Princes of most worthy memory , King Henry 8. and Qu●en Katharin his loving , godly , and lawful wife , your Highness lawful Father and Mother , cannot but thinck ourselves most bound , both by our duty of Alegiance to your Majesty , and of conscience towards God , to shew vnto your Higness , first , how that the same Matrimony , being contracted , solemnized , and consumated , by the agreement and assent of both their most noble Parents , by the councel and advise of the most wise and gravest men of both their Realms , by the deliberat and mature consideration and consent of the best and most notable men in learning , in those days , of Christendom , did even so continue by the space of 20. years and more between them , to the pleasure of Almighty God , and satisfaction of the world , the ioy and comfort of all the subjects of this Realm , and to their own repose , and good contentment , God giving for a sure token , and Testimony of good acceptation of the same , not only godly fruit , your Highness most noble person ( whom we beseech the Almighty and everliving God , long to prosper and preserve here amongst vs ) and other Issue also , whom it had pleased God to take out of this Transitory life vnto his eternal glory , but also sending us a happier , flourihing and most prosperous Common-wealth in all things . And then afterward , how that the malicious and pervers actions , of some ( a very few persons ) envying the great felicity wherin , by the goodness of God , your sayd most noble Father and Mother , and all their good subjects lived and continued many years , did for their own singular glory , and vain reputation conceive sundry suttle , and disloyal practises , for the interruption and breach of the sayd most lawful , and Godly concord . And endeavering to put the same in vre devised first to insinuat a scruple into the King your Father's conscience , of an vnlawful marriage , between him and his most lawful wife the Queen your Highnes's Mother , pretending for the ground therof , that the same was against the word of God. And thervpon ceased not to persuade continualy vnto the sayd King your Father , that he could not without daunger of the loss of his soule continue with his sayd most lawful wife , but must be separated and divorc'd from her . And to this intent caus'd the Seals a● wel of certain Vniversities in Italy and France to be gotten ( as it were for a testimony ) by the corruption of mony , with a few light persons , Schollers of the same Vniversities ; as also the Seals of the Vniversities of this Realm to be obtained by great travail , sinister working , secret threatnings , and intreatings of some men in authority , especialy sent at that tyme thither for the same purposes . And how that finaly Thomas Cranmer , newly made Arch-Bishop of Canterbury , most vngodly and against all laws , equity and conscience , prosecuted the same wicked device of divorce , and separation of the said King your Father , and Queen your Mother , caled before him ( ex officio ) the hearing of the same matter of marriage , and taking his foundation partly vpon his own vnadvised judgment of the Scripture , ioyning ther with the pretended Testimonies of the said Vniversities ; and partly vpon bare and most vntrue conjecturs , gathered and admitted by him vpon matters of no strength or effect , but only by supposal , and without admitting or hearing any thing that could be sayd by the Queen your Mother , or by any other on her behalf ; in the absence of the sayd late your Mother , proceeded , pronounced , and discerned , declared , and gave sentence , the same most lawful and vndoubted matrimony , to be naught , and to be contracted against God's law , and of no value , but lacking the strength of the law ▪ and the said most noble King your Father , and the said noble Queen your Mother so married together , did separat and divorce , and the same your most noble Father King Henry the 8. and the said noble Queen your Mother , from the bands of the same most lawful matrimony , did pronounce , and declare , by the same his vnlawful sentence , to be free , discharged , and set at liberty . Which sentence and judgment so given by vnlawful and corrupt means and ways by the said Archbishop of Canterbury , was afterwards vpon certain affections ratified , and confirmed by two several Acts , the one made in the 25. year of the raign to the said King your Highnes's Father , and intituled , an Act of declaring the establishment of the succession of the Kings most Royal Majesty , of the Imperial Crown of his Realm . The other Act of Parliament made in the 28. year of the raign of the said King your Highnes's Father , intituled an Act for the establishment of the succession of the Imperial Crown of the Realm . In the which said two Acts , was contained the illegitimation of your most noble Person , which your sayd most noble Person being born in so solemn a mariage , so openly approued in the world , and with so good faith , both first contracted , and also by so many years continued between your most noble Parents , and the same Mariage in very deed not being prohibited by the law of God ; could not by any reason or equity in this case be so spotted . And now we your Highnes's sayd most loving , faithful , and obedient subjects of a godly heart and true meaning , frely and frankly , without fear , fancy , or any other corrupt motion , or sensual affection , considering that this foresayd mariage , had it's beginning of God , and by him was continued , and therfor was received , and is to be taken , for a most true just , lawful , and to all respects , a sincere and perfect mariage , nor could nor ought by any man's power , authority or jurisdiction , be dissolved broken , or separated ( for whom God joyneth , no man can nor ought to put a sunder ) and considering also , how during the same mariage in godly concord , the Realm in all degrees flourished to the glory of God , the honour of the Prince , and the great reputation of the subjects of the same ; and on the other side , vnderstanding manifestly that the ground of the sayd divice and practice for the sayd divorce , proceeding first of malice , and vaine glory , and afterward was prosecuted and followed of fond affection , and sensual fantasie , and finaly executed and put in effect by corruption , ignorance and flattery ; and not only feeling to our great sorrow , dammage , and regret , how shamful ignominies , rebuks , slanders and contempts yea with death pestilence and wars , disobedience , rebellions , insurrections ▪ and divers other great and grievous plagues . God of his Justice hath sent vpon vs , ever since this vngodly purpose was first begun and practised ; But also seing evidently before our eys that vnless so great an injustice , as this hath bin , and yet continued , be rebuked , and that the sayd fals and wrongful process , Iudgment , and sentence , with their dependances be repealed and revoked , nothing is less to be doubted , then that greater plagues , and stroaks are like to encrease and continue dayly more and more with in this Realm ; do beseech your most excelent Majesty , as wel in respect of your own honours , dignity and just title , as for truth's sake wherwith ( we doubt not ) but your Highness also will be specialy moved in conscience , and also for the intire love , favour , and affection which your Majesty beareth to the common wealth of this Realm , and for the good peace , vnity , and rest of vs your most faithful subjects , and our posterity ; that it may be enacted by your Highness , with the consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal , and Commons in this present Parliament assembled . And be it enacted by the authority of this present Parliament , that all and every decree , sentence , and Iudgment of divorce , and separation between the sayd King your Father , and the sayd late Queen your Mother , and all the process commenc'd followed , given , made , or promulged by the sayd Thomas Cranmer , then Archbishop of Canterbury , or by any other person or persons whatsoever , wherby the same most just , pure and lawful marriage , between the sayd late King your Father , and the sayd late Queen your Mother , was , or is pronounced , or in any wise declared to be vnlawful , or vnjust , or against the law of God , be , and shal be from the beginning , and from hence forth , of no force , validity , or effect , but be vtterly naught , voyd , frustrat , and annihilat , to all intents constructions and purposes , as if the same had never bin given or pronounced . And be it also enacted by the authority aforsaid , that as wel the said Act of Parliament intituled an Act declaring the establishment of the Succession of the King 's most Royal Majesty , to the Imperial Crown of this Realm , made in the 25. year of the reign of the King your Father be repealed , and be it voyd , and of no effect , as also all and every such clauses , Articles , branches , and matters contained and expressed in the afforsaid Act of Parliament , made in the said 28. year of the Reign of the said late King your Father , or in any other Act , or Acts of Parliament , as wherby your Highness is named or declared to be ilegitimat , or the said marriage between the said King your Father , and the said Queen your Mother , is declared to be against the word of God , or by any means vnlawful , shal be , and be repealed , and be voyd , and of no force nor effect , to all intents , constructions , and purposes , as if the same sentence or Act of Parliament had never bin had , nor made , and that the said marriage had and solemnized between your said most noble Father King Henry , and your said most noble Mother Queen Catharin , shal be definitivly , cleerly , and absolutly declared , deemed and adjudged , be , and stand with God's law , and his most holy word , and to be accepted , reputed , and taken of good effect and validity to all Intents , and purposes . &c. Notwithstanding that the force and fraud vsed by King Henry 8. Cranmer , and others engaged in this divorce , were so plainly manifested , the Catholicks faith reestablished , the folly and falshood of former schisms and heresies publickly acknowledged , yet no sooner was Queen Mary deceased , then Queen Elizabeth and her Protestant faction , resolved to return to the former errours , whervnto vicious persons ( who always are the greatest number ) were as vehemently inclined , as men are to enjoy their liberty , and to excuse the sensuality which they practised , by the principles of that Religion . And though it seemed a busines of great difficulty for Q. Elizabeth and her Councel , to revive a Reformation , which had bin so lately cryed down as schism and heresy , by the vnanimous concurrence of a ful and lawful Parliament , yet her Regal authority , her sex , and words wrought so strongly vpon the weakness of some , and vpon the ambition of others , that she gained the greater part of the house of Lords ( and yet but by on only voice ) for establishing Protestancy ; the Duke of Norfolk , and the Earl of Arundel employing in her service , all their interest , with friends and relations , against the Religion of their Ancestors . And such Lords and Gentlemen ( saith D. r Heylin ) as had the managing of elections of their several Counties , retained such for members of the house of Commons , as they conceived most likly to comply with their intentions for a reformation . Besids ( saith he ) the Queen was young , vnmarried and like enough to entertain some thoughts of a husband ; so that it can be no great mervail , not only if many of the nobility , but some even of the Gentry also , flattered themselves with possibilities of being the man whom she might choose to be her partner in the Regal Diadem . Which hopes much smoothed the way to the accomplishment of her desires , which otherwise might have proved more rugged and vnpassable , &c. Notwithstanding all these devices , and compliances they never passed an Act in Parliament for the validity of her Mothers marriage , on which ( saith Heylin ) her title most depended . It seems the late former Act declaring the validity of Queen Catharins mariage deter'd her from attempting an other incompatible therwith , and wherin men must have had contradicted themselves most imprudently , as also the truth asserted by the many witnesses , and confirmed with such individual circumstances , that without infamy to the late Parliament they could not take from Queen Elizabeth the brand of bastardy . Yet they resolved it should be no bar between her and the Crown , and so they thrust her into the Throne , which of right belonged to Mary Steward Queen of Scotland , as is manifest to all that are not persuaded , Catholick Religion doth make soveraigns incapable of Regal jurisdiction . SECT . VII . Other effects of Protestancy after it was revived in England by Q. Elizabeth , to exclude the Royal Family of the Stewards from the Crown ; of the nulity of her Clergy's caracter and jurisdiction . By King Henry 8. his revolt from the Church of Rome , not only the Religion but the realm of England was so embroyl'd , that very many who had no right , entertained hopes of ascending into the Royal Throne ; some by fishing in troubled waters , others by marrying Q. Elizabeth , others by their descent from the younger daughter of King Henry 7. ( all mention of the heires of the elder Sister having bin omitted , or blotted out of the last will and Testament of K. Henry 8. ; and Q. Elizabeth having bin declared ilegitimat by three Acts of different Parliaments , which never yet were repealed ) very few there were that did not hould their own title to be more legal then hers . This confusion also made the Queen of Scots known right to be neglected . But the French King who was concerned therin , commanded her to be proclaimed Q. of England , and quarter'd the Arms of great Britanie with his lilies . Q. Elizabeth apprehended some daunger from a title so cleere , seconded with the power of France , and Scotland ; and therfore by the advice of Secretary Cecil and others , resolved upon the chang of Religion and the destruction of the Catholick party and Clergy which favoured the Stewards claim . The Protestant Reformation ( as being sutable both to her birth and interests ) was revived , and a new caracter of Priesthood and Episcopacy devised ; not imprinted in the soule by imposition of Episcopal hands , according to the Ghospel , but in wax , as if forsooth by the weight of the great seal , and the vertue of a shee supremacy , a woman or lay men might make Bishops . This superficial formality was declared a sufficient caracter , and ground of Episcopacy , by a Junta of her Majesties lawyers , and Divines as appeareth in their definitive sentence , and her Commission * to the Consecraters of her first Bishops D. r Parker , and others , wherin she dispenseth with all the inhabilities , and incapasities even of their State and Condition ; because the true Bishops refused to ordain her Clergy , and a Clergy she was resolved to have that would vote in Parliament , and instruct the People as should be thought fit for her Succession and security . And because the Roman Catholick Writers of those tyms laught at the Protestant Bishops Episcopacy , and bid them shew the letters of their Orders , not the letters patens of the Queen ; and tould them a secular Prince might give them the revenues of Bishopricks , but not the Caracter of Bishops ; and that the same Catholick writers insisted much vpon their Adversaries not being able to name what Bishops did consecrat them ; and besids pleaded in the publick Court , they were not realy nor legaly ordained ; and that afterwards it appeared so to the Iury appointed for the examination therof ; both the Queen and her Bishops found it absolutly necessary for her credit and their caracter , to ratify all Acts , and things had made , or don by any person , or persons in or about any consecration , confirmation , or investing of any person , or Persons elected to the office , or dignity of Archbishops , or Bishops by vertue of the Queens letters patents , or Commission , since the beginning of her Reign . So that to know whether D. r Parker , and his Camerades were true Bishops , none must have examined whether they had bin consecrated by other Bishops , but only whether the person or persons that were the Consecrators ( whether lay men or Ecclesiastick it matter'd not ) performed that ceremony by virtue of the Queens letters patents , or commission ? If they could shew her great seal , they might vse what matter and form they pleased ; for , by the Act 1. & 8. Eliz. there was given to the Queens Highness , her Heires &c. full power and authority , by letters patents vnder the great seal of England , from tyme to tyme , to assign , name , and authorise such person or persons as she and they shal thinck meet and convenient ( any lay man or woman would serve turn ) to exercise , use enioy and execute vnder her Highness , all manner of jurisdictions , Priviledges , preheminences , and authorities , in any wise touching or concerning any spiritual , or ecclesiastical power , or jurisdiction within this Realm , or any other her Majesties Dominions , or Countrys . Now priesthood being nothing but a spiritual power to Consecrat Christ's Body and Bloud , and forgive sins , and Episcopacy including besids the same , a spiritual power to consecrat , and ordain other Priests and Bishops ; who can doubt but that by these words and Statut , the Queen might , and her Successours may , by their sole letters patents and great seal , make any lay man , ( whether Carter or Catchpole ) , a Protestant Bishop , or Priest ; seing therby he receiveth ful power to exercise , vse , execute , &c. all manner of jurisdictions , preheminencies , and authorities , in any wise touching or concerning any spiritual , or ecclesiastical power &c. And because ther might remain no ambiguity or scruple of Parker , and the first Protestant Bishops valid and legal Consecration , the same Statut 8. Elizabeth 1. assures us , that the Queen in her letters patents for that purpose directed to any Archbishop , Bishops , Or Others ( mark the word Others ) for the confirming , investing , and consecrating of any person elected to the Office or dignity of any Archbishop , or Bishop , hath not only vsed such words and sentences as were accustomed to be vsed by the late King Henry , and King Edward her Majesties Father and Brother , in their like letters patents , made for such causes ; but also hath vsed divers other general words and sentences , wherby her Majestie by her supreme power , and authority hath dispensed with all causes or doubts , of any inperfection or disability , that can , or may in any wise be objected against the same , as by her Majesties sayd letters patents ( remaining on record ) more plainly wil appeare . Now Mr. Bramhal , the late Primat , would fain make the Parliament so sensless , and his Readers so simple , as to referr the words , mentioning and comparing the records of the Queen and her Father and Brother's tyme in this Act , to the Archbishop of Canterbury's Register , and not to their Majesties letters patents ; wher as by the whole context and discourse it is evident , that the Parliament's drift is to shew no such ceremonious solemnity ( as of late hath bin pretended and printed by Mr. Mason ) was necessary . Had ther bin any such legal or formal Consecration at Lambeth , as 50. years after was forged , and foisted into the Archbishop's Register , the Parliament 8. Eliz. 1. would have remitted us therunto , named Lambeth , and not insisted al-togeather vpon the Queen's dispensation for the validity , and legality of her first Bishops Consecration and caracter . Many ar the reasons lately printed , and not like to be answered , that persuade all prudent men , who have not too great a passion for the Prelatick Clergy , to believe that Mr. Mason's new found Register of Lambeth is forged . 1. It was never produced , nor mentioned by the first Bishops , so much pressed by their Adversaries to shew some Register , or any evidence for their Consecration . 2. They were only desired to let the world know , wher , when , and by whom they had bin made Bishops ? questions easily answered , had they bin consecrated at Lambeth , or any Register then extant when Dr. Harding , Stapleton and others , charged them with nulity and illegality of Episcopal caracter . 3. It 's no more credible that such knowing and conscientious men as Stapleton , Harding , Fitzherbert &c. then living in England , and probably at London , would question so publick and solemn an action , then it is , that a sober man would now cal in doubt King Charl's 2. coronation at Westminster , or ask in print , who set the Crown vpon his head pretending he neuer had bin crown'd . And though Bishop Godwin and other Prelatick Writers abuse Dr. Harding , Holiwood , Fitzsimons &c. for relating the meeting of the first Protestant Bishops with a design to be ordained at the Nagshead in Cheap-side , yet all the world knows that albeit there could be no design to feign that story , yet our Controversy with the Prelaticks , is not whether their first Prelats were ordained there , but whether they were ordained any wher ? We know Bishops might be as validly consecrated in a Tavern , though not so decently , as in a Church . But t' is fit they also consider , that if Dr. Parker and their first Bishops , were so narrowly watch't by Mr. Neal , and other Catholicks ( whom Primat Bramhal doth cal Spies ) that they could not be merry in a Tavern without their knowledg , they could hardly perform so serious , and solemn an Action in a Church , as the first Consecration of a Protestant Archbishop , without their observation ; it being a matter then so much sought after , and controversed , of so great curiosity in it self , and of greatest concern to us , the total credit , and being of their new Reformation depending therupon ; And yet for aboue 50. years none of the Writers of either side Catholick , or Protestant ( who mentioned all other particulars relating to the reformation ) writ , or spoke a word of this solemnity at Lambeth . The Puritans indeed upraided the Prelaticks with saying their Episcopal ordination in England , had it's beginning and progress in a corner , not in a Congregation , but we can not imagin they could mistake the Archiepiscopal Chappel of Lambeth , for a corner , or deny that the great Assembly pretended to have had bin at Dr. Parker's Consecration , deserved not to be caled a Congregation . Queen Elizabeths Clergy thus created by her patents , and Parliaments , they endeavored to shew themselves gratful to her Majesty , by making the people believe that Popery ( by the principles wherof she was vncapable of the Crown ) was Idolatry , the Pope Antichrist &c. And to that end corrupted Scriptures in their English Translations , as shal be proved herafter . And because their frauds and follies were discoverd by Catholick Priests , the sanguinary and penal laws were enacted and executed with great cruelty . But that which most troubled the Queen and her Clergy , was the life and right of the Queen of Scots ; they found an expedient to rid themselves of both , that innocent Queen was murthered , and seing Queen Elizabeth was not inclined to marry , it was decreed in Parliament that in case there should be any natural issue of her body , it should enjoy the Crown after her death , and so the line of the Stewards was excluded ; and for that the doctrin of the Roman Catholicks favored their Title , all persons of that profession were discountenanc'd , and persecuted . And albeit this setlement both of the Crow'n and Clergy of England , seem'd very absurd to all that reflected vpon the principles of Christianity , and the practise of God's Church , yet they who were guided only by Maxims of human policy , excused the Queens proceedings , and condemned not her Clergy for accepting of those revenues , and dignities which they could not acquire by honest and ordinary ways , their learning being but vulgar , and their birth obscure . Had not her Majesty exalted those mean persons from nothing , to be a legal , though not lawful Clergy , she could not have had any Clergy at all , for that no man of conscience , or honour , would have gain'd his living by damning souls , and corrupting Scripture , nor received a spiritual caracter from a secular seal , and she supremacy . And indeed even to this day very few or none of the Protestant Nobility , or prime gentry , vndergoe that cours of life ; and the better sort of Trads-men take it for no great honour when any of their Relations becom , Ministers . And becaus the foundation of the Queens legitimacy , and of her Clergys caracter and jurisdiction , was King Henry 8. and her own supremacy , an oath of the same was pressed vpon the subjects , and proposed in the Parliament . The temporal Lords who were wiser then to believe that Christ committed the government of souls , and of the Church to women or lay Princes ( all of them one excepted ) having bin for the three first Centuries , Idolaters ; and many , for some succeding ages , notorious hereticks , ( and for the future may prove no better , ) refused to concurr with their votes for passing of the Oath , unless the Peerage were exempted from taking it : this being condescended vnto , they consented to make that Oath legal , which themselves had rejected as vnlawful ; and yet is this oath , even in our tims , made the distinctive sign not only of Prelatick Protestancy , but of Cavallier loyalty , and Christian honesty . But this policy of State neither then , nor now , could worck that vnity of faith , and vnion of hearts for which it was devised . It divided Protestants into Puritans , and Prelaticks ; and confirmed Papists in their own belief , as being scandalised to see others make a thing so incredible , the foundation of their faith . The Puritans agreed with the Papists in denying the Queen's spiritual supremacy , but differ'd from them in the ground of the denial , and in the person wherunto they granted that prerogative . The Papists continued it in the Pope ; the Puritans vsurped it to themselves . The Papists grounded their belief concerning the Pop's supremacy vpon the common and continual consent of all Catholicks , acknowledging the Bishop of Rome to be de jure Divino S. Peter's , Successour ; the Puritans rejected that consent and Tradition , relying vpon their own privat spirit , and fond interpretation of Scripture . And though it be more dangerous for Souveraigns to alow of this spiritual superiority in their own subjects , then in a stranger , whose parentage ( generaly speaking ) is not considerable , and whose power is not durable , as coming very late into his hands , and not surviving his person by descent to his posterity , or relations ; yet Queen Elizabeth , was more jealous of the Pope , then of the Puritans ; becaus the generality of the Irish , and a great part of the English , were Papists ; and according to their principles , the Stewards ought to have bin in possession of the British Empire , and the Pop's censures in behalf of the Queen of Scots , had wrought already vpon some of their consciences . But the Puritans hated her Religion , person , and posterity , and were the chief instruments that Queen Elizabeth employ'd in embroyling Scotland , and sheading of her Royal bloud : and therfor they were not only tolerated , but many of them exalted to places of trust , honour and profit . On the contrary , the Roman Catholicks were persecuted , as a party that not only wish't , but wrought what was possible for the Queen of Scots liberty , relief , and the restitution of the Crown to her self , and to her line , wherof it had bin so vnjustly deprived by the principles and practises of Protestants : wherof some were so ignorant or impudent , as to give out then , and even now Dr. Heylin pag. 131. doth rashly maintain , that the Pope offered to confirm her English Liturgy , vpon condition she would acknowledg his supremacy . This was then , and is now reported , to the end illiterat Protestants may believe there is no great difference between their Reformation , and the Catholick Religion ; and that the Bishops of Rome , and the Councel of Trent proceeded rashly in their Censures , or at least may now , and would then , contradict former definitions , vpon more mature deliberation , or for some temporal respects : But they who know it is not in the Pop's power to legitimat a spurious brood , on begot and born in adultery , as Queen Elizabeth ; and that he would be deposed from his Papal dignity , if he offered to confirm , or alow any of the many defin'd heresies contain'd in the English Liturgy : They I say , will not believe the Bishop of Rome could be so fond of Queen Elizabeth , or forgetful of him-self , as to become a Protestant , and chang the revenues of his Popedom for the vncertainty of her pension , in case she would value his kindness so much as to bestow a pension vpon him . By such follies and frauds is Protestancy supported in the opinion of credulous , and carless people , and their Clergy kept in possession of a vast revenue . SECT . VIII . Reasons why Queen Elizabeth in her 44. years Reign could not make her Prelatick Clergy and Religion acceptable , neither is it possible for her Successours to gain credit and esteem for the same . THe setlement of a Christian Religion or Clergy doth not consist in making them legal by Acts of Parliament , but in persuading the people that both the Religion and the Clergy is Apostolick ; and by consequence that the Acts of Parliaments wherby they are confirmed , are lawful . Notwithstanding the great severity of Queen Elizabeths laws , and the litle sincerity of her Clergy , in pulpit , press , and privat conversations , against the Roman Catholick Religion , for the space of aboue 44. years of her Reign , though Popery was therby rendred odious , and ridiculous to simple men , silly women , children , and others , whose want of capacity , and even of curiosity made them not reflect vpon the drift of Protestant Preachers , nor vpon the reasonableness of Catholick Tenets ; yet their Prelatick Protestancy did and doth every day rather loose then gain ground , and the generality of these Nations can not be wrought vpon either by fair or foul means to thinck wel of that Religion , or to submit their Judgments , and consciences to the direction of the Bishops , and Prelatick ministery . The reasons are obvious to such as are not obstinat . 1. The incredibility of their pretented spiritual caracter and jurisdiction . 2. The incoherency of their doctrin with the fundamental principles of Protestancy . Their Episcopal caracter and jurisdiction , is as incredible as King Henry 8. spiritual supremacy , Queen Elizabeths legitimacy , and the validity and solemnity of their first Bishops consecrations . They have indeed of late endeavored to excuse the latness of their Masonian Registers discovery , and to cleere them from the suspitions of forgery , but so faintly and fraudulently , that their vindication ( though pen'd and published by on of the ablest Prelats of their Church ) hath furnished their adversaries with so many new demonstrations against their Caracter , that in steed of a reply , the Protestant Bishops have resolued vpon a submission to the evidence of our arguments , and changed the controverted and essential part of their forms of Ordination . As they endeavored of late to vindicat their Registers from forgery , so they , long since explained the Queens supremacy , but so contrary to the known laws of the land , and cleer words of their Oaths both of supremacy and Episcopal homage , that neither can bear their fond interpretations ; and if they could , the Bishops would have nothing to shew for their pretended spiritual function and jurisdiction , it being manifest they cannot deduce either of them by succession from any Apostolick Church , or orthodox Councel ; and therfor must content them-selves with what they can buy from a lay soveraign , and temporal Statuts , or acknowledg the truth , and confess ingeniously , they are but lay-men , and have no lawful authority to take vpon them a spiritual function , and jurisdiction , seing they have no Catholick Predecessours , and degenerat from the first Protestant Reformers , and are ashamed to claim ( with Presbiterians and Fanaticks ) the extravagancy of a privat spirit , and extraordinary vocation . The incoherency also of the Prelatick doctrin maks these nations averse from the Prelatick Church and Clergy . ●n the 39. Articles of Religion they declare with Luther , and the first Reformers , that no visible sign or ceremony ( and by consequence no such thing as imposition of Episcopal hands ) was instituted by Christ , or is the necessary matter of a Priest's and Bishop's ordination ; and yet now of late , that visible sign and ceremony is held by them-selves to be so essential , that without the same , no caracter of Priesthood or Episcopacy is thought to be given to the party ordained ; and therfor they reordain such Presbiterian Ministers as did neglect , or contemn imposition of Episcopal hands . 2. They maintain in the same 39. Articles , that the Roman Catholick Church hath falen into damnable errors , and acknowledg that only such a fal can justify the Protestants separation , or excuse them from sin and schism . And yet when they are pressed with a consequence that necessarily follows out of this supposition , to wit , that if the Roman and visible Church had so erred , Protestants can have no Christian faith , nor certainty of the Scriptur's being God's word , or of the Trinity and Incarnation &c. which they received and retain vpon the sole Testimony of the Roman Catholick Church , having in their own 39. Articles declared the Greeck Church , Heretical ( for the doctrin of the Holy Ghost's procession ) and therfor it 's testimony ( even in other Articles ) is invalid , and it's concurrence , in those other Articles , with the Roman Church , is vnsignificant . And yet they again contradict them-selves , and confess that the Roman Catholick Church is infalible in all articles necessary for saluation . 3. The same inconstancy and incoherency they shew in denying , that doctrinal Traditions are the word of God , or that Tradition it self is a sufficient ground of Divine belief ; and yet when they are demanded to shew a proof by cleer Scripture of the distinction between single Priesthood , and Episcopacy ( v.g. ) then they maintain that traditional doctrin is God's word , and the testimony of the Roman visisible Church , a sufficient evidence therof . Their wavering and inconsequent way of proceeding , doth manifest to the world , that as wel in this , as in other particulars of Christian Religion , nay even in declaring which are necessary or not necessary points of faith , the Prelatick Clergy hath a greater regard to their own conveniency , then to God's veracity ; and to the revenues of ●he Church , then to the saluation of souls : Otherwise why should they take our Roman Catholick word for Episcopacy , and not for the Pop's supremacy ; for the letter , but not for the sence of Scripture ; for not rebaptising , or for receiving relaps'd penitents , more then for Purgatory , or Transubstantiation ; or for keeping Sonday , and not praying to Saints &c. Seeing all these doctrins are equaly proposed to them as Catholick truths by the sole credible testimony and tradition of our one and the same Roman Catholick Church ; the testimony of the Greeck and all other Churches ( as hath bin sayd ) being rendred invalid by the hereticks wherwhith Protestants confess they are infected : Some are of opinion that if the more modern Prelaticks had not forsaken their ould way of being ordained Bishops by the Queens letters patents , or by some such publick testimony and superficial ceremony of their Congregations , without troubling them-selves with the doctrin of the inward caracter given by imposition of Episcopal hands , so contrary to the principles of the reformation a broad , and to the 23. and 25. of their own 39. Articles at home ; they had not bin so hard put to it by their Presbiterian Brethrens arguments , who stick to the Tenets and Rules of pure and primitive Protestancy , detesting those formalities and dregs of Popery , which Prelaticks of late have so much affected in ordaining of Ministers . Mr. Hooker , Dr. Couel and some other Prelaticks in their writings towards the end of Queen Elizabeths reign , began to inculcat the doctrin of making Ordination a spiritual caracter imprinted in the soul by imposition of Episcopal hands , and not a bare formality , of the secular Magistrat's election , by some outward ceremony , or letters patents , as all English Protestants had believed and practised vntil Hooker and Couel broacht this among their other Popish novelties , and therfor were publickly blamed , and complained of by Prelatick Writers , and particularly by Dr. Willet in his worck vpon the 112. Psalm . printed 1603. and dedicated to the Queens Majesty page 91. he saith : From this fountain have sprung forth these and such other whirlpoints , and bubles of new doctrine ; and amongst others he sets down as a novelty in the Church of England this , That there is in ordination given an indelible caracter ; and then addeth , Thus have some bin bould to teach and write , who , as some Schismaticks ( the Puritans ) have disturbed the peace of the Church one way in externall matters concerning disciplin ; they have troubled the Church another way in opposing themselves by new quircks and devices to the soundness of doctrin among Protestants . And truly , to pretend with all reformed Churches , that the Pope is Antichrist , and the man of sin , and at the same time profess ( as the learned Prelatick writers do in their books ) that without his caracter of Priesthood there can be no orthodox Clergy or Christian Church ; are things that do not hang wel togeather ; neither is it credible that so zealous Protestants as were the first English reformers Cranmer , Coverdale , Bale , &c. who strained Scripture in their Translations ( and made formal abjurations ) against the caracters of Episcopacy and Priesthood , which they had received in the Church of Rome ; or that Parker , Jewel , Horn , &c. who received that same doctrin , and excluded those caracters by an express Article of their 39. of Religion from the Church of England , and from their form of ordination , it is not I say credible , that these and the like men did maintain in their convocations , the late Prelatick contrary doctrin , or that they exercised or recorded any such Popish formalities of consecrating Priests and Bishops by imposition of Episcopal hands , as M. r Mason pretends he found in Parker's Register at Lambeth , as appeareth also to any that wil consider , the homely choyce , and caling of the primitive Pastors and Preachers of our Prelatick Protestancy , objected to themselves in print when they were living , and yet could not deny the fact , neither did they go about to excuse it , not taking it to be a fault . D. r Kelison in his survey pag. 373. & 374. saith of the Protestant Clergy in Q. Elizab. time . Lay men were taken , of which , some were base artificers , and without any other consecration or ordination then the Prince's , or the superintendent 's letters , made them Ministers and Bishops , with as few ceremonies and less solemnity then they make their Aldermen yea Constables and cryers of the market . D. r Stapleton in his Counterblast lib. 4. num . 481 , saith . And wherin I pray you resteth a great part of your new Clergy , but in Butchers , Cooks , Catchpols , and Coblers , Diers , and Dawbers , fellows carrying their mark in their hand insteed of a shaven Crown , &c. Seing therfor our Catholick Arguments convince all disinterest'd persons ( that weigh them ) of the absurdity and novelty of Protestancy in general ; and such as do not take them to be of any weight ( because themselves are byassed , and bent against vs by education or interest ) must needs take notice ( if they think seriously of any Religion or of their own Protestant principles ) that the Prelatick Reformation is but a politick appendix or addition of Q. Elizabeth in pursuance of her Father's passion , and by her self resolved vpon , more for securing a Crown then saving the soule ; and therfor containing more mysteries of state then of faith , and more regarding conveniencies then conscience , as appeareth by the layty of her Clergy , by her She-supremacy , by the anticipated Royalty of her vnlawful issue , in case she would be pleased to own any ; these things I say being no calumnies of malignant pens or persons , but most manifest by her own Articles of Religion , and Acts of Parliament , can hardly be digested by honest subjects , ( much less settled as Divine truths in Christian souls ) or carry the face of a pious and plausible Religion , even amongst the most silly sort of people . Yet far be it from our thoughts to censure with folly or impiety such as suck't with their Nurses milk the poyson of this Prelatick Protestancy ; no , we know they want neither piety nor policy according to their own principles ; but I hope they wil not be offended , if , according to ours , we do pitty their condition , and pray for their conversion ; we believe their zeale against our catholick Religion proceeds not from malice , but mistaks ; and desire they may likewise believe our intention is only to expel by this antidot , the poyson which others have infused into their brains . This humble apology and explanation doth not relate to them that made the chang of Religion for preferring Q. Elizabeth , and any natural issue of her body to the Crown , befor the lawful heires , who ( by God's providence ) since her death , and at this present enioy right , nor to any that wil obstinatly maintain such proceedings : It is intended for all wel meaning Protestants that believe themselves to be Catholicks , and if they be not , wish they were ; and that the true Religion were setled in these Nations . But what mervaile is it that privat persons be mistaken in Protestancy , when the Royal family of the Stewards ( against whose title and succession it was introduced and established , both in England , and Scotland ; in England by Q. Elizabeth , in Scotland by the Bastard Murry ) are so much in love with that Religion ; devised for their own ruine ? So bewitching a thing is education , engrafted in good dispositions , and so dangerous , if not cultivated , and corrected , by our own more mature reflections , when we arrive to years of discretion . SECT . IX . How injurious Protestancy hath bin to the Royal family of the Stewards , and how zealous they have bin , and are in promoting the same ▪ AFter that King Henry 8. had vsurped the Pop's Supremacy , and divised certain Articles of Religion , he desired his Nephew K. James 5. of Scotland , to follow his example , which that Catholick Prince refus'd to do , King Henry in his last will and Testament ( confirmed by his Protestant Parliament ) excluded the Royal family of Scotland from their right and succession to the Crown of England , preferring before the Stewards not only his illegitimat daughter Elizabeth , but the Grays , and all others that descended of the yonger sister Queen Dowager of France , and Dutchess of Suffolk . King James 5. deceased , his wife the Queen Regent of Scotland , and his young daughter Queen Mary , were so persecuted by the Scotch and English Protestants , that the Queen Regent was deposed , and Queen Mary was forc't to fly for refuge into France . After her return into Scotland , the King her Husband was murthered by the Protestants , his subjects , and the innocent Queen trepan'd by her protestant Bastard Brother to marry Borthvel one of the murtherers ; with a design to diffame and depose herself from the government , which the Bastard had vsurped ; and had murthered likewise King James 6. an infant , but that God prevented his wicked designs by permitting him to be killed by the hand of a Hamilton . Other Protestants succeeded the Bastard Murry in the government ; and though King Iames escaped the dangers , and designs they had layd for his life , yet they perverted his soule , and when he was but 13. months ould , Protestancy was set vp in his name ; his Mother ( being driven out of her own Kingdom by those Protestants that deposed herself , and abused her Son's minority ) was ( contrary to the publick faith and privat promises of Queen Elizabeth ) imprisoned in England , her Rebels countenanced , and her self at length most vnworthily murthered by the joynt consent of a Protestant Queen and Parliament : and her son and Family excluded from the British Empire , in case Queen Elizabeth should have , or at least own , any natural issue : which many suppose was the true cause , why she or the Parliament would never declare her Successour . King James having bin brought vp in this schoole of affliction , attained to more then ordinary wisdom , dissembled with his enemies in England , and strengthned him-self with as many friends and Allies as he could in foreign Nations , to the end he might recouer his right after Queen Elizabeths death , which he and the best part of the world every day long'd son ▪ He kept faire with France , Spain , and even with the Pope . He succord Tyrone Tirconel , and the Jrish Scots in Irland against Queen Elizabeth but vnder hand . He corresponded with the Catholick party in England , and was civil even to that party that contrived and pressed his Mothers murther . By his marriage he obtained the confederacy of Denmarck and the Protestant Princes of Germany for recovering of England . Cecil and others of the English Councel , observing how prudently this young King had ordered his affairs , and prepared him-self for being their Master , courted him , and vnknown to the Queen , gave him dayly intelligence , and thought it their best course to fix vpon him for her Successour ; seing they could hardly keep him out , they invited him to the Throne after his enemie's death ; and he finding that very Protestancy by which his mother and him-self had bin so long excluded from their right ( and would have bin for ever , if Queen Elizabeth had bin as capable as t' is sayd she was desirous of Posterity ) was deeply rooted in the hearts of most of his English subjects ( who either did not see he chang , or not observe the motives and Mysteries therof ) King James J say , reflecting vpon this inclination of the people to Protestancy , conformed him-self vnto that Reformation which had bin setled by law in England ; discountenanced the Puritans , by whose doctrin he had bin persecuted in Scotland ; and would have tolerated the Catholick , if the gun powder Treason ( wherunto some few discontented and desperat Papists were cunningly drawn by Cecil , to make their Religion odious ) had not blasted our hopes , and blotted out of his Majestie 's memory what we had suffered for his Mother , and how not only our persons , but our principles had bin persecuted for supporting the title of his Family to the British Empire . By King James his learned works , and discourses , it is manifest he had a design to reform the principles of Protestancy , and reduce them to some rules of reason , and confine that dangerous liberty which they give to every privat Protestant , of being supreme Judg in all spiritual Controversies to one certain interpretation of Scripture that might be less prejudicial to Monarchy , Monarchs , peace and all civil Government , then the Protestant arbitrary interpretations have proved hitherto . To that purpose he commanded the Bible to be truly translated , and those fraudulent and foolish corruptions to be corrected , which had bin imposed vpon the people for God's word by Queen Elizabeths Clergy , for maintaining her title , and securing the revenues of the Church to them selves . But his command was not obey'd , some falcifications in the ould and new Testament were corrected , but very few , in respect of what remain and pass now current for true Scripture . He declared that Catholicks and their Religion had no hand in the gunpowder treason , those few persons excepted , which had bin executed . He was not , afraid to acknowledg that the Pope was the first Bishop of Christendom , and Rome the mother Church ; he suspended the rigor of the sanguinary and penal Statuts ; commended not apostatised Priests , that became Protestants , as he said , to get wenches , and benefices . These things he did , not out of any inclination to Popery , but out of his zeal to Protestancy , which he perceived would in a short time become as infamous , as it is intolerable to Monarchs , in case it's principles were not corrected and brought neerer vnto Catholick Tenets . After King Iames his death , his son King Charles 1. pursued the Father's design ; but found by sad experience that the Protestant liberty of interpreting Scripture , cannot be restrained to reason by any human industry of the wisest Princes ; especialy so long as they are guided by a fallible Church that confesseth it's own vncertainty of doctrin . King Charles the 1. was persuaded by his Councel and Clergy that the Laws which had bin enacted in favour of the Prelatick fallible Church , and doubtful jurisdiction , were of sufficient force and authority to contain Protestant subjects in awe , and obedience , and to stop the cours and consequences of those fundamental , and violent principles of their reformation against superiority , at the Church of Rom's doore ; and keep them from passing further , or entrenching vpon the Church of England . But the mistake soon appeared ; they who are allowed by the Prelatick principles to rebell against their Roman Superiours , vnder the pretence of a Religious interpretation of Scripture , and evangelical Reformation , could not then , nor cannot for the future , be contain'd , or deterr'd by any authority from rebelling against their Protestant Kings , and Bishops vpon the same score , whose superiority could not be more authentick , then the Roman Catholick . And therfor because the King , had engaged in the Bishops quarel , he drew vpon himself the odium of all Protestants that with the spirit and zeal of Reformation stuck to the fundamental principles of Protestancy , which is , to contemn all authority both spiritual and temporal , which any privat person judges contrary to his own interpretation of Scripture ; and seeng the Prelatick Church of England doth grant this doctrin was lawful in Luther , Calvin , Cranmer , Parker , and other particular persons , Churches , and States against the Pope , and others their then acknowledged spiritual and temporal superiours , it will be very difficult to shew why now a Presbiterian or Fanatick Congregation may not as rationally pretend , and as lawfully practise the same doctrin as their primitive Protestant Predecessours had don . And so in vertue of this fundamental principle of Protestancy , was the sacred person of a good King judged and murthered , by a rude and wicked multitude , without regard to innocency , or respect to Soveraignty : And by a remarkable revolution of tyms , and interests , the grandson came to loose his head for vpholding that same Prelatick Religion and Clergy which by Q. Elizabeth had bin rays'd for the destruction of his Grand-mother , and the exclusion of his family from the crown . Since Christian Soveraigns have reign'd , the like Tragedy hath not bin acted ; many Princes have bin murthered by their Subjects , but never by any such formality of Law , and a publick Court of Judicature , pretending superiority in themselves , and Scripture for their rule and warrant . Wherfore they that looke into the principles and privileges for the future in so zealous and resolute a people as the English , who stand much vpon enjoying their temporal liberties , and much more vpon the spritual prerogative of Protestancy , which according to Luther ( the first Author , and Apostle therof is ) omnia judicemus & regamus . Let us judg and govern all things ; and not only his German Scholler Brentius but our English Bishop Bilson , and all Prelaticks grant , that the people must be discerners and Judges of that which is taught . And the Catholick doctrin of the Church of England explaining the 39. Articles therof saith , Authority is given to the Church , and to every member of sound judgment in the same , to judg controversies of faith , &c. And this is not the privat opinion of our Church , but also the judgment of our godly brethren in forain Nations . And it is not only the Tenet of Calvin , but of all Protestant Writers , that temporal laws oblige not in conscience any Christians to obey . It being therfore a principle and priviledg , even of Prelatick Protestancy , and agreable to the 39. Articles , that every member of sound judgment in the Church , hath authority , to judg controversies of faith ( and by consequence ) all other differences that may be reduced thervnto , how is it possible for any King to be a Soveraign among Protestants , who are all supreme judges both of faith and state ? for that State-affairs are subordinat to Religion , and must be managed according to the Protestant sense of Scripture , that is , according to the judgment and interpretation of every particular Protestant or of him that can form or foole the multitude into his own opinion . Wherfore we ought not be astonished , that men constituted supreme Iudges and Interpreters of Scripture by the legal authority and articles of the Church of England , and by the Evangelical libertys of Protestancy , should presume to make them-selves the King's Iudges . For my part , I shal thinck it a great providence of God , and extraordinary prudence in the government , to see any King of England ( during the profession and legality of such principles in his Kingdom ) escape the like daunger ; and do continualy pray , that their good Angel may deliver them from the effects of their own Religion . His Majesty that ( by miracle ) now Reigns ( long may he live and prosper ) hath bin forced to lurck for his life in one of those secret places wherunto Priests retire , when they are search't for ; God giving him to vnderstand therby , that the most powerfull Princes ( where Protestancy prevails ) even in their own Kingdoms , are never secure ; and may be often reduced to as hard shifts , and as great extremities as the Poorest Priests , and meanest Subjects . RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT . THE SECOND PART . Of the inconsistency of Protestant principles with Christian piety and peaceable Government . SECT . I. Proved by the very Foundation of the Protestant Reformation , which is , a supposition of the fallibility and fal of the visible Catholick Church from the pure and primitive doctrin of Christ , into notorious superstition . IN the beginning of the first Part , it hath bin sayd that the groundworck as wel of Policy , as of Peace and Piety , consists in making that persuasion to be the Religion of the State , which is most credible , or most agreable to reason ; because no commands , duties , taxes , or charges will seem intolerable to subjects , for the preservation , and propagation of such a Religion , nor for the maintenance of the spirititual and temporal Ministers , to whose charge is committed the government of such a Church and Common-wealth . How far all kind of Protestancy ( even the Prelatick ) is from having this prerogative , we shall demonstrat in this Part of our Treatise ; and in this Section prove the same by the absurdity of the fundamental Protestant principles , Common as well to the Prelatick as to all other Reformations . The foundation wherupon all Protestant Reformations are built , is this incredible or rather impossible supposition , Viz. That all the visible and known Christian Churches of the world ●ell from that purity and truth of doctrin , which they had once professed , into superstition , and damnable errors ; vntil at length in the 15. age , God sent the Protestant Reformers to revive the true faith and Religion ; whose separation from the Roman Catholick Church and all others then visible , is pretended to be free from sin and Schism , by reason of the falshood of the Roman Catholick doctrin , not consistent with saluation . But this supposition is incredible . 1. Because Protestants confess the fall and change of Religion was not perceived vntil 1300. or vntil at least 1000. years (a) after it happned , and such an imperceptible change in Christian religion , involues as plain contradictions as a silent thunder . For , either it must be granted that all the Pastors , and Prelats who lived in the time that any alteration of doctrin began , were so stupid as not to take notice of so important and remarcable an object ; or so wicked as to observe , and yet not oppose novelties so destructive to the souls committed to their charges . Both which are proved to be groundless calumnies by the acknowledged zeal learning , and integrity wherwith many Prelats and Pastors were endued in every age since the Apostles , as their works yet extant do testify . The truth of this Protestant supposition is not only incredible , but impossible ; because the supposed chang of Christian Religion into Popish superstition is not pretended to have bin only a chang of the inward persuasion , but of the outward profession , visible and observable in ceremonies and practises , answerable to the Mysteries believed ; as the adoring of the B. Sacrament , worship of Jmages , Communion in one kind , publick prayer in vnknown languages &c. How then is it possible that any Christian man , or Congregation could begin so discernable and damnable novelties , as ( according to the opinion of our Adversaries ) The adoration of the Sacrament , Transubstantiation , worship of Jmages , Communion of the layty vnder one kind , the Sacrifice of the Mass , and publick prayers in an vnknown language , the Pop's supremacy , the doctrin of Purgatory , Jndulgences , Praying to Saints , the vnmarried life of Priests &c. How is it possible I say , that any one should begin to teach , and practise any of these supposed damnable doctrins , and yet never be noted , or reprehended by any one Prelat , Pastor , or Preacher ( who ar ( according to Esay ) the wat●chmen [b] of te visible Church ) vntil Luther's times , or at least vntil these supposed superstitions had bin so vniversally spread , so deeply rooted and plausibly received as Catholick truths , and as ancient Traditions of Christ , and of the Apostles , that they who censured and opposed any of them , were ( for so doing ) immediatly cryed down and condemned by the then visible and Catholick Church and Counsels , as notorious hereticks ; How come the Preachers and Professors of these pretended Popish errors to escape for so many ages , as Protestants confess they had continued , vncontroul'd from the censures of Christ's pure Protestant Congregation , if there was any vpon earth during that time ? was there not one Bishop , Priest , or Preacher in all the world for so many ages , so zealous as every Protestant is in ours ! If any Protestants lived then , why did not they speack or write ? were they all Temporisers , and Turn-coats ? or were they all so blind , dumb , deaf , and dull , that not one of them could see , heare , reprehend , or observe practises and ceremonies so erronious , obvious , and offensive ? The Protestant evasion or answer to this evident Demonstration , is both frivolous and fallacious . Their chief Doctors (c) acknowledg they can not tell by whom , nor at what time the Popish errors were broacht , and say that errors in Religion may creep as insensibly into the Church , as a building may decay , or white haires grow in man's head : as if , forsooth , all and every Christian of the world , and particularly the Pastors and Prelats of the Church , were as much concern'd in the observation of every gray hair and head , or in the preservation of every building from decay , as they are in observing and preserving the purity and integrity of every article of faith , and in opposing the least novelty contrary to the same . Besids , the outward profession and propagation of those points of Popery that Protestants suppose to have crept insensibly into the Church , could neither be concealed , nor confounded with the contradictory principles and practises of Protestancy , as a white hair may be easily confounded and concealed with others that cover , or come neer it in colour . Moreover , the chang from youth , and stately buildings , into gray hairs , and ruinous edifices , is wrought insensibly by the hand of time without any perceptible concurrence of any other cause ; Time wears out and consumeth structure , strength , youth , and beauty , whether men gaze or not gaze vpon such gay objects ; but the planting , preaching , or inculcating of new doctrin , and new ceremonies of Religion , are of a quite contrary nature ; they have not such dependency of time alone , they must be effects of attention and observation of discourses and disputs , of Sermons and Catechisms ; they must be also professed and practised in the view of the world . Time without these and the like notorious practises and observations , can not alter Christian Religion , nor induce a contrary superstition . Lastly . Granted there were no fallacy in the similitude , nor disparity in the Comparison ; the examples are better retorted against Protestancy , then applied to Popery ; for , though haires may begin to grow white , and buildings to decay , without any great notice taken of their chang , yet when either coms to the height , or even to the mediocrity of their chang , that chang is observ'd by as many as have eyes to see ; and is not only observed , but resented , and remedied ( according to their power ) by them who are most concerned in such decays and defects . If then a white head is so easily discern'd from black , and a ruin'd edifice from a new Palace , and a decay'd face from a beauty , by all kind of people that make use of their senses , and if so much industry is used by them who are most sensible of those imperfections , to hinder their further progress or appearance ; how is it possible that all or any orthodox Christians ( being so greatly and particularly concern'd in the purity and truth of their Religion , and in the observation of it's rites and Ceremonies ) could be for many ages so stupid , as not to distinguish it's doctrin and profession from the quite contrary ? or so carless in applying remedies against the grouth , and continuance of errors both damnable and discernable ? Is it not more probable and possible that Martin Luther ( a man so impious , proud , and passionat , that him-self acknowledgeth he did retain Idolatry in the Church at Wittenbergh , to vex his Scholler Carolostadius ; should ( to disgrace the Pope and Papists his enemies ) be seduc'd ( by his confessed disputation and submission ) in his diabolical doctrin , then that the whole visible Church , Fathers and Councels before Luther for at least 1000. years , should not only forsake Christ's doctrin , but mistake the true sence of Scripture now pretended to be so cleer and manifest to every Protestant ? That all the world did conspire and concurr to such an apostasy , is not credible : That they who did not concurr , should sit quiet and conive , is as vnlikly . If no Pastor nor Prelat had the courage to oppose Idolatry and superstition , sure some one or other would have had the curiosity to describe the occasion , beginning , and progress of so great and remarkable a change ; and would mention , ( if not condemn ) the stupidity of the whole Church , in not opposing doctrin so inconscionable , and vnreasonable . And yet ther is no Tradition therof , nor a syllable in any history sacred or profane , of this supposed change in any on point of Popery , nor so much as the least sign therof in any monument of antiquity . SECT . II. The Protestants evasion of the cleerness of Scripture against our Roman doctrin , as also of the invisibility of their own Church , confuted : and the incredibility of the supposed change and Apostasy , proved by the difference of the Roman Catholick , and Protestant principles . THE second evasion of Protestant Writers is , that they are not bound to inquire when or wher our Popish errors crept into the Church , or became so vniversal , but think it sufficient to prove by Scripture , that Popery is not Christ's doctrin . This shift is no less absurd then the former , because they suppose for granted what is denyed , and the subject to our disputes . The controversy between Protestants and Catholicks is , whether the Roman Tenets be contrary to Scripture ? Protestants say they are , and prove it , because , forsooth , Scripture is contrary to the Roman Tenets ; We deny it , and they prove it only by pretending that the letter and sense of Scripture is evident for the Protestant doctrin , and by consequence they must say that all Papists for the space of 1500. or at least 1000. years , have bin either so witless as not to vnderstand what is evident , or so wicked as to contradict evidence , and the cleerness of God's written-word and meaning . Let any Protestant ( who hath so much sense as to vnderstand that nothing but the obscurity of Scripture can make it the subject of disputs , and occasion diversity of opinions among so honest and learned Christians ) , be judg , whether the controversies between us , and Lutherans , Presbiterians , and Prelaticks . , &c. be not a demonstration that the true sense of Scripture is not cleer and evident in the controverted Texts . And if the dissent and dissentions amongst honest men and learned Scripturists be an vndeniable proof , and evidence of Scriptur's obscurity , whether it be not great obstinacy in Protestants to maintain that Popery is evidently condemned in Scripture , and that so many thousands of honest and learned Papists could not or would not discover what is cleer to every illiterat Protestant ; or if they did , would not embrace that truth to which their judgments and God's cleer word did direct them ? Until the year 1517. no man euer pretended the cleerness of Scripture for Protestancy ; at that time Martin Lather ( seeing all the Fathers contradicted his protestant doctrin ) bouldly affirmed (d) the ancient Doctors and Fathers of all former ages to have bin blind and most ignorant in the Scripturs , and to have erred all their life time . And in Colloq . cap. de Patribus Ecclesioe Luther saith of sundry Fathers in particular thus . Jn the writings of Jerome there is not a word of true faith in Christ and sound Religion . Tertullian is very superstitious . J have holden Origen long since accursed . Of Chrysostom I make no accompt . Basil is of no worth , he is wholy a monk , I way him not a haire . Cyprian is a weak Divine , &c. Adding further that the Church did degenerat in the Apostles age , and that the Apology of his scholler Philip Melancton doth far exceed all the Doctors of the Church , and exceed even Austin him self . And in his Treatise de formulâ Missae , & in tom . 3. Germ. folio 274. Jf the Councel should in any case decree this ( the Communion vnder both kinds ) least of all then would we vse both kinds , yea rather in despite of the Councel , and that decree , we would vse either but one kind or neither ( notwithstanding Christ's precept and the necessity of that spiritual refection ) and in no case both . But this man's bare word ought not to weigh more then the Testimony of all the Fathers and Councels that went before him , or be preferred before the constant Tradition of 15. ages , especialy if we reflect vpon the pride , and passion which he declares in all his writings , not only against the Doctors of the Roman Church , but against his own Disciples : and ( as hath bin said ) how in the begining of his reformation ( when his spirit was in it's primitive fervor ) he doth plainly confess that he did favour Idolatry , to contradict Carolstadius for anticipating his commands in a point of the reformation , viz. for abolishing of the adoration and elevation of the B. Sacrament in his absence : [e] I did know ( saith he ) the elevation of the Sacrament to be Idolatricall , yet nevertheless J did retain it in the Church at Wittenberg to the end J might despite the Devill Carolstadius . And yet this wicked friar's authority is the first foundation of protestancy : Therfore notwithstanding his known impiety he is termed by their writers (f) Holy saint Luther , a man sent of God to lighten the world : [g] the Helias , Conductor , and Chariot of Israel : to be reverenced next after Christ and Paul : (h) greater then whom , lived not since the Apostles tims : [i] The Angel and last trumpet of God , whose caling was (k) immediat and extraordinary &c. Let the most peevish Protestant , I say once more be judg , whether it be not more probable and possible that one privat proud and [l] passionat man did mistake the true sence of Scripture , and misapply the words therof to humour his passion of pride and revenge , then that all the primitive Fathers and Christians of the world did conspire to forsake the known true letter and cleer meaning of God's word ; or if all did not conspire in the Apotasy , that there should be no monument left , or mention made in record , history , or tradition , of the fidelity of the party that resisted . Secondly , this supposed change is proved incredible not only by the impossibility of an insensible change in a thing so remarkable and important as the doctrin and Profession of Christian Religion , but also by the impossibility that a change and corruption of Christ's doctrin should be made to the detriment of the wary layties temporal interest , and to the disadvantage both of the layty and Clergie's liberty ; For when men resolve to go out of the narrow way which leads to heaven , they are not so foolishly wicked as to retire from the wide world into deserts , or Monasteries , and to impose vpon themselves or their followers an obligation or principles of a more [m] strict course of life then that which they had forsaken , as dayly experience doth cleerly demonstrat . If protestancy therfor was the primitive and pure Christian Religion , the fall from it to Popery , must have bin rather condessending then contrary to sensuality and liberty : And yet if the doctrin of the reformation , and it's exceptions against Popery be considered , we shal find that in every particular wherin they differ , Protestancy doth favour liberty and vice ; Popery doth favour temperance , and virtue . We shal declare herafter to what great crimes and carlesness of life men are encouraged by the Protestant doctrine of predestination , and justification by faith alone . Christ's sufferings and satisfaction for our sins they apply not to themselves by imitation of his virtues , and mortification of the flesh , but think it a diminution of his glory , and a disrespect to his person , that men endeavour by God's grace to help themselves , and to cooperat with Christ's passion ; and vpon thi● ground they rayse their batteries against Indulgences , Purgat●●y ▪ ●●lgrimages , Prayer to Saints , Confession of sins , Pennance , the three Vows , and the austerity of a Religious life , Works of Supererogation &c. and censure Catholicks as guilty of superstition and folly for believing , that though Christ's passion be infinitly sufficient to redeem vs from the guilt and penalties of sin , yet is it not sufficiently and actualy applied to actual sinners without their own concurrence , good works , and the Sacraments of the Church . As for their pretence that Christ hath satisfied for all , they may as wel say , that he hath prayed , fasted , and given almes for all , and so discharge men of all such Christian-duties and devotions . And as to other particulars , we desire to know , what can the Protestant Clergy's design be in allowing Priests mariages , and a liberty to dissolve mariages , change wives [n] and husbands in case of adultery , departure , infirmity by child-birth , or otherwise , but lust and sensual liberty contrary to the instition of matrimony , and to the purity and practise of Christianity , which Roman Catholicks observe ? From whence proceedeth their allowing of eating of flesh and fish promiscuously on all days of the year , but from gluttony ? Their Clergy's denyall of the Pop's superiority ( which their betters in virtue , birth and learning acknowledg ) but from want of humility ? And their placing it in the temporal Soveraign , but from excess of flattery ? Their dulness in confounding the substance with the appearance of bread and wine in the Sacrament , but from sensuality ? Their denial of the Church's infallibility ( and yet assert in themselves an vncontroul'd authority ) but from pride and obstinacy ? Their fond expressions of their own prelatick reformation and doctrin , but from want of Christian modesty , and from their for-fathers the ancient hereticks , whose presumption and obstinacy was neuer more manifestly absurd , nor more legaly condemned at Nice , Ephesius , Calcedon , or Constantinople , then the Protestant Tenets have bin at Trent , as wil appeare to any that wil read the history of those Councels , and compare the objections and exceptions made by Arians , Nestorians , and E●●tychians , & e. against the Authority and decrees wherby they were censured in these four first Councels , with the Protestant exceptions and objections against the Councel of Trent ; especily if they wil pervse but the very first leaves of Cardinal Palavicino his confutation of Fr. Paulo Suarez , or Servita , his history , wherin they wil find above tree hundred lyes and calumnies of that Apostata Friar in matter of fact , so notorious and vndeniable , that our English Prelatick Clergy wil ( or ought to be ) ashamed of the Preface they have set before it , and of abusing King Iames and his Subjects with such impostures , by their extolling so improbable and infamous a Libel . Seing therfore the supposed change and fall from primitive Protestancy to popery , hath bin from presumption and pride of a privat and censorious [o] judgment against the publick testimony and sense of the visible Church , to submission and humility of an obsequious and prudent belief ; from notorious rebellion against spiritual and temporal superiours , to religious and dutifull obedience ; from gluttony to abstinence ; from incontinency to chastity ; from sincerity to flattery ; from Cloysters and austerity to Sacrilege and liberty ; from a pretence of faith alone to the Christianity of faith and good works &c. It must be concluded , that either Protestancy was not the pure and primitive Religion , or if it was , that the change therof into popery , hath bin for the better , and by consequence that the first Papist , introduced into the world a more sacred and sincere profession , then had bin taught by Christ and his Apostles . But this being impious and as impossible , as it is that men abandoned by God , should exceed God's servants in piety , or that they should establish and practice more Godly principles and more zealously promote virtue when they fel from God , and the way of salvation , then when they were in the same ; it must be granted , that Popery is the pure and primitive Religion taught by Christ ; and his Apostles ; and that only weak brains , or such tender plants as in their infancy received strong impressions of the possibility , and existence of an invisible Christian Church vpon earth , can fancy an insensible change of it's doctrin , profession , and ceremonies , into so remarkable and different a worship of God as Popery is , compared with Protestancy . Congregations of Protestants living in the same Provinces , Citties , and Parishes with Papists , and dissenting from them in the outward and oral profession of faith ( if they did not profess protestancy , ( which they suppose was Christ's faith ) with the mouth , they were dissemblers , and could be no part of the true Church ) in the Canon and sense of Scripture , in the administration and number of Sacraments , in Rites and Ceremonies , in the substance and language of the Liturgy , in adoring the B. Sacrament , in worshiping of Images , in receiving of the Communion &c. such Protestant Congregations , I say , to be invisible and never heard of in 1500. or 1000. years , nor observed , nor persecuted by the prevailing Papists among whom they lived , is not a thing possible , or intelligible , much less prudently credible . We see by experience in these Kingdoms , how impossible it is for a Recusant not to be discerned , and discovered ; Papists are known though not convicted . Many of them through the mildn'ss and prudence of the government , escape the penalties and rigour of the Law ; but none the observation of their neighbours , and very few the menaces of both ecclesiastical and civil Courts . The invisibility therfor of the Protestant Church and the insensibility of it's change to Popery , is a fitter subject to ground ther-vpon a ridiculous Romance , then a religious reformation . Perhaps it wil be sayd that Protestants were vntil the last age among the ten tribes as the Jews , of whose appearance ther hath bin of late so much talk ; but we heare not of Protestants among them ; neither did Luther , Zuinglius , Cranmer , or Calvin pretend that they came from those Israelits , or from Terra australis incognita ; they were born and bred neerer , and they brag'd that them-selves were the first Reformers . Now to their Scripture . SECT . III. Protestants mistaken in the Canon of Scripture maintained by the Church of England , and by Doctor Cousins Bishop of Duresme . OUr second Argument against the probability , or possibility of Protestancy being the word or work of God , is taken from the Protestants mistake of Scripture , and their altering of the Canon . And wheras [a] our learned Adversaries do agree with vs in saying that neither the Scripture it-self , nor the privat spirit can determin which parts of Scripture are Canonical , or holy , but confess that this controversy must be decided by the Testimony and authority of the Church ; and that above 300. years after the Apostles , some of their writings were not held by all orthodox Catholicks to be Canonical , which now are comprehended in the Canon , and admitted as the word of God by many Protestants ; it foloweth . 1. That the Canon of Scripture was not so sufficiently proposed to the whole Church for the three first ages , as to make the denial or doubt therof , Heresy 2. That the 6. Article of the Prelatick-Religion of England , which admitted only such books of Scripture for Canonical , of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church , is false , and the ground therof fallible . For as all men vers'd in the Ecclesiastical History wel know , and learned Bilson the Protestant Bishop of Winchester doth acknowledg ( in his survey of Christ's sufferings &c. printed 1604. pag. 664. ) The Scripturs were not fully received in all places ; no not in Eusebius his time ( which was above 300. years after the Apostles ) he saith the Epistles of Iames , Iude , the second of Peter , the second and third of John , are contradicted as not written by the Apostles ; the Epistle to the Hebrews was for a while contradicted , &c. The Churches of Siria did not receive the second Epistle of Peter , nor the second and third of Iohn , nor the Epistle of Iude , nor the Apocalips , &c. The like might be sayd for the Churches of Arabia . Wil you hence inferr that these parts of Scripture were not Apostolick or that we need not receive them now , because they were formerly doubted of ? This Argument of Bishop Bilson we apply to the Machabees , and to the other books declared by the Church of England to be Apocryphal . Doctor Cousins writ a book caled a Scholastical History of the Canon of Scripture ( for which him-self and his friends think he wel deserved the Bishoprick of Duresme that he now enjoys ) in defence of the Prelatick Protestant Canon , and of the 6. article of the Church of England . And because he tels us in his Preface , that men of knowledg pressed him to publish it as a piece that would give more ample satisfaction , and cleere the passages in antiquity from the objections that some late Authors in the Roman side bring against Protestants , then those other writings of home , or foreign Divines have don that are extant in this kind . I thought fit to give Protestants a proof of the soundness of their doctrin , and of the sincerity of their Doctor . And though it seemeth to me impossible for any man to know what parts of the new Testament the 6. Article and Canon of the Church of England , declares Canonical , it being so intricatly worded , that either it must be non sense , or els exclude from the Canon the Epistles of Iames , the second of Peter , the second and third of John , the Epistle of Iude , the Epistle to the Hebrews , and the Apocalips , seing the authority of all and every one of these hath bin doubted of in the Church , and the 6. Article of the Protestant Religion of the Church of England is , that In the name of the holy Scripture we do vnderstand those Canonical Books of the old and new Testament , of whose authority was never any doubt of , in the Church , Though I say , it 's impossible for me to comprehend how common sense and Christianity can meet in this Article , but that if the words therof signify any thing , out of the English Protestant new Testament , must be excluded all the aforsaid Epistles and Apocalyps ; yet leaving this difficulty to the decision of that Church , I wil suppose at the present with D. r Cosins that all these Epistles and Apocalyps are included in the English Canon , and come to the examination of the Arguments wherby he pretends to defend it . He therfor foreseing the impossibility of giving any reason why the parts of the New Testament hertofore doubted of should rather be received by Protestants into their Canon , then the Books of the Old Testament , no more questioned by the Church of Christ then the aforsaid epistles and the Apocalyps ; thought to avoyd the force of this pressing parity , by flatly denying ( pag. 5. & alibi ) That ever any intire Church , or any National or Provincial Counsel or any multitude of men in their confessions and Catechisms , or other such publick writings , rejected or doubted of the sayd epistles &c. In case so many solemnities had bin requisit for the questioning of Canonical authority , ( which his Lp : knows , are not necessary ) It seems his lordship did not peruse Eusebius his works , though he quotes them very often ; or at least did not thinck that the ancient Churches of Syria and Arabia deserve to be called Churches , not that the Lutherans of Germany , Denmark , Suethland &c. who stick to Luther's principles and Canon , can make one , or many Churches , It s a gross mistake in the Doctor to say ( pag. 4. & 5. ) that Luther or his Lutherans recalled or recanted their error concerning the Epistle of St. James ; he might see the contrary in the very book him-self cites of Chemnitius the famous Lutheran , whose authority and words he placeth ( in his addition of certain Testimonies ) in the same rank with sentences of St. Augustin , and St. Thomas of Aquin &c. This Chemnitius in most of his works ( as in his Enchirid. pag. 63 , and in his examin of the Councel of Trent . p. 1. pag. 55. & 56. ) declareth his own sense , and that of his Church in these words , The second Epistle of St. Peter , the second and third of John , the Epistle of Jude , and the Apocalyps of John , are Apocryphal , as not having sufficient testimony of their authority . His lordship might also have bin better informed of Luther's sence and Church by the saying of Illiricus an other pillar and Writer therof , ( whom Mr. Bell in his regiment of the Church ( pag. 28. ) termeth a very famous Writer , and most worthy defender of the Christian truth ) his words are , Luther in his preface vpon St. Iem's Epistle giveth great reasons why this epistle ought in no case to be accompted for a writing of an Apostolick authority , vnto which reasons I think every godly man ought to yeeld ▪ Luther's reasons are to be seen in the ancient editions of Jene , and are comprehended in these few words of his , The Epistle of Iames is contentious , swelling , dry , strawy , and vnworthy an Apostolick spirit . And because these words and others were omitted in the later editions of Wittemberg by some Divins that would fain reform Luther's Canon , Religion , and Church , the chief Lutheran Doctors mett in a Synod at Altembury , complained of their Adversaries corrupting Luther's books , and resolved to stick to the ancient editions , and to the literal sence of his words . So that in case it were true the Canon of Scripture could not be sayd to have bin questioned by any Protestant Congregation , whithout declaring their doubt in a publick confession of faith , we see the Lutheran doth so ; as also in their confession of Wittemberg quoted by Belarmin ( lib. 1. de verb. Dei cap. 7. init . ) which is seconded by all hereticks of these tims , ( saith Belarmin . ) the Calvinist only excepted . But the Doctor is so much mistaken in the necessity of such a formality , that the Arians were condemned as hereticks , notwithstanding that in their publick confessions of faith they endeavored rather to disguise then declare their errors . It is wel known that Lutheran Churches in Germany not only do reject from their Canon the Epistles of S. Iames , Iude , the second of Peter , and third of S. Iohn , the Epistle to the Hebrews , and the Apocalyps , but are so obstinat in denying them to be in any wise Canonical Scripture , that they do not as much as print them in their Bibles . And if my Lord of Duresme thinks that the rigid and moderat Lutherans , half Lutherans , and other Protestant Congregations wherin are many as learned Ministers and [*] Writers as him-self , deserve not the name of a Church , he may expect that they wil censure his Church after the same manner , and perhaps with as much reason . But lett them agree as wel as they can , it concerns not vs. Yet I hope he wil not pronounce so severe a Censure against the Greeck and Latin Churches , and vn-church both ; Wherof S. Hierom ( in epist. ad Dordunum ) testifieth , that the Greeks doubted as much of the Apocalyps against the common consent of the Latins , as the Latins did of the Epistle to the Hebrews against the common consent of the Church . Seing therfor it is evident by the confession both of ancient Fathers and modern Pro●estants , that in the primitive Church the Canonical Scriptures were not generally received all at once , but in so great variety of pretended Scriptures , great care and search was requisit to determin which Scriptures were Canonical , and which not ; wherby it came to pass tha● sundry books and parts were for a long time misdoubted by some Churches and Fathers , and by some Councels omitted , or not received , which yet afterward vpon greater search and consideration , were generally acknowledged ; it must be very great obstinacy in Doctor Cozins and other Protestants , to reject the Canon which the Councel of Trent proposeth , and embraceth , because forsooth some books therin contained , were not as soon believed by all Catholicks to be Canonical , as the others . Or to deny the authority , and authentikness of some books of the old Testament , because they were not in the Canon of the Iews ; as if the Jews might not doubt and omitt to put some books divinely inspired into the Canon , as wel as the primitive Christians ; or as if the Apostles might not supply that defect , and declare some books of the old Testament ( wherof the generality of the Jews doubted ) to be Canonical . SVBSECT I. Doctor Cozins exceptions and falsifications against the Councel of Trent's authority answered . The difference between new definitions and new articles of faith explained . THe Protestant obstinacy is not excusable by the exceptions made against the number of Bishops that voted in the Councel of Trent , or against the pretended novelty of the Canon which they decreed . As to their number , the authority of defining matters of faith in a general Councel is no more limited , or diminished by the absence of members legaly summoned , and long expected , then the authority of a lawful Parliament by the absence of many Lords , and commons ; especialy if there be a necessity of applying present remedies to the distempers of Church or Common-weal . Doctor Cozins doth confess that the Catholick Church stood in need of a reformation , and that the Councel was too much diferr'd and delay'd ; After they had met at Trent , Seing the Bishops were not as many as the Pope and his Legats expected and wished , for the greater solemnity , of so important a decision as that of the Canon of Scripture , whervpon they were to ground their further definitions , they put of that session for 8. months , and at the end of them , hearing that besids those who were at Trent , many Bishops were setting forth , and others in their Journey , they differred the definition of Canonical Scripture for three months more , to the end as many as could possibly come might be present . If through neglect , contempt , age , infirmity , or other accidents , wherof the Pope was not in fault , many Bishops were absent , that could no more prejudice the authority of the Councel at Trent , then the like circumstances disanull the authority , or make voyd the Acts of our Parliaments . But sure the learned Protestant Pastors cannot but smile at the simplicity of their illiterat flocks , when they consider the zeale and earnestnes wherwith they except against the smal number of Bishops ( and their presumption forsooth ) in the Councel of Trent , For the declaring the Canon of Scripture , and other Divine truths ; and yet them-selves accept the Canon of Scripture , and doctrin of their own Churches vpon the bare word of one Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin , or vpon the sole authority of the 12. or seven men , appointed by Parliament in the reign of Edward 6. Besids , our Canon of Scripture was confirmed by the whole Councel of Trent afterwards , together with the other points of faith therin defined . And though Doctor Cozins ( pag. 208. ) tels how the Princes and reformed Churches in Germany , England , Denmark , &c. immediatly set forth their Protestations , and exceptions against the Councel , aleadging that the caling of this Councel by the Pop's authority alone was contrary to the Rights of Kings and the ancient Customs of the Church ; That he had summond no other persons thither , nor intended to admitt any either to debate or give their voice there , but such only as had first sworn obedience to him ; that he took vpon him most injustly to be Judg in his own cause &c. Yet it is sufficiently manifested to the world by the very Acts of the Councel , that the Pope did nothing but what his Predecessors had don , and the Catholick Princes , and Church had approved in the like occasions ; and that , though Protestants were not admitted to vote at Trent , [a] yet they were not only permitted but invited in a most secure , and civil manner by the Councel to reason , dispute , and debate their controversies , and answer for them-selves and their doctrin ; and this way of proceeding is no more vnreasonable in a general Councel , then it is in a Parliament , not to permit any to vote therin before he taks an oath of alegiance , ( not to say any thing of the oath of Supremacy ) and much less to admit of Lords or Commons accused of treason , or rebellion , to sit in the House , vntil they prove their innocency , or acknowledg their fault , and obtain their pardon by a dutiful submission , and profession of repentance . And granted that nothing had bin resolved in the Councel of Trent by the Fathers therof , but what first was canvass't at Rome by the Pope and Conclave ( which is false ( yet we conceive that , to be no more against the constitution or freedom of a Councel , then it is against the constitution or freedom of a Parliament , that no Bill pass vnto an Act , vnless it be first signed by the King and approved by his Councel , and yet we know , that to have bin the constant custom in one of his Majesties Kingdoms since the reign of King Henry 7. As for the Pope or Church of Rome being Judg in their own cause , it is a prerogative so absolutly necessary for the authority and govermnent of Magistracy , and the quiet and peace of the people governed ; that no Monarchy or Commonwealth can want it without falling into great inconveniences and confusion . A subject t' is true may sue the King ; but the sentence must be given in the King's Courts , and by his authority , notwithstanding any objected dependency or parciality of the Judg explaining the laws and customs in favor of his Soveraign . And he who would not acquiesce in such a sentence , but would needs have the cause decided by a foreign Prince , or People , is a rebel . If this be reasonable and just in temporal Courts , and fallible sentences , how much more , in spiritual controversies , and infallible definitions of the Church ; which definitions of the Church if not acknowledged to be infallible , the Church can not have any jurisdiction or authority in matters of faith ▪ as not being able to satisfie doubts , and setle the inward peace of Christian souls either perplexed in them-selves , or in daunger of being perverted by others , whether hereticks or pagans , neither of which can be indifferent Judges , or competent Arbitrators between the Catholick Church and her Children . And seing doubts and differences are vnavoidable in both Church , and Commonwealth , and that there can be no appeale to Infidels , or Foreigners , without doubt it is more agreable to Scripture , to the law of nature , and light of reason , that Parents and Pastors be Judges in any cause of their Children and inferiors , then the contrary ; or that there be no Judg at all , nor jurisdiction either spiritual or temporal . But that which Doctor Cozins , and all Protestants most press against the judicature of Popes , and the councel of Trent is , that they do not judg according to Scripture , and to the right sense therof , wheras Kings and their Judges are regulated by the laws of the land , even when the suit is against the King , or his pretended prerogative . To this we answer that Popes and Councels are as much regulated by Scripture in their definitions as Kings and their Courts by the laws ; But Protestants do not observe , that as the interpretation of the laws depends not of them who sue the King , but of the ancient practise of his Judges , and Courts , so the interpretation of Scripture must not be made by t●em who sue the Pope and Councels , but by the Bishop and the Church ; who ar to explain it , not according to every on 's privat fancy , as Protestants do , but according to the tradition , customs and practises of the orthodox Christians in former Ages . And by this we free the Roman Catholick Church , and the Councel of Trent from the Protestant calumny of novelty of doctrin , not only in this particular of the Canon of Scripture , but in all it 's other definitions : Pro●estants confound our new Decrees with new doctrin , wheras nothing is more cleer then that old doctrin may be defined by a new Decree , that is made more publick , and authentick . The Councel tels them ( sess . 4. ) that it only declares what Canon of Scripture the primitive Church held , and quotes for it divers ancient Fa●hers , and Councels ; and therfor it 's Decree maks no new Canon of Scripture , but is a promulgation of the old , which induceth an obligation of believing , what formerly had not bin so generaly known , because it had not bin so cleerly and solemnly proclaimed . Methinks none ought to carp less at the novelty of our definitions then Protestants , if they would reflect vpon their own reformations . They pretend that their doctrin is not only renewed , but revived , because forsooth , the whole visible Church had lost that purity of the Primitive faith for many ages which they now have restored . Roman Catholicks are more moderat and modest , as having a better opinion of the Church and of God's providence ; they confess that the doctrin defended by the Councel of Trent was never extinguished in the Church , but that it lived in the harts and profession of many faithful , though many others of the same communion did not hold them-selves obliged to believe it as a doctrin of faith , vntil it had bin sufficiently and solemnly proponed by the Definition of the Church in a general Councel , as Divine . That being don , no addition or alteration was made of divine faith ; For new definitions are not new articles of faith , but promulgations of the old faith , or declarations of our obligation to believe as articles of faith those things which had bin formerly revealed , but not so sufficiently proposed to the whole Catholick Church . Wherfore articles of Faith not believed before they be decreed by a general Councel , may be aptly compared to laws , or ordinances , before they ar published ; as the publication or proclamation of a law maks not a law , but declares the obligation of complying therwith , so the definition of a general Councel maks not the article of faith , but declareth the obligation of believing that doctrin , which before the publication or proclamation of the Church , had not bin sufficiently proposed as Divine revelation . To what purpose then did Doctor Cozins trouble him-self and his Readers with composing a book against the Catholick Canon of Scripture declared in the Councel of Trent , when all his arguments are but sayings of men who doubted of books and parts of Scripture before they were declared ( and only because they were not declared ▪ ) Canonical by a general Councel . He would fain impose vpon the world that S. Ierom was so much a Jew , and so little a Christian as ( for the Canon of the old Testament ) to rely altogeather vpon the Hebrew Rabins , and that he set a greater value vpon their testimony , then vpon the authority of the Church , or of the great Councel of Nice , which received into the Canon of Scripture the book of Judith , though rejected by the Jews . His proof of S. Jerom's judgment being the same with that of Protestants in this controversy is , that in some places of his writings he says , the contested books of the old Testament are not in the Canon of the Jews , nor received as Canonical by the Christian Church ; to which is answered that S. Jerom altered his opinion , as appeareth in his prefaces prefixed to the said books , which he translated into latin at the instance of the Churches and Bishops that held them to be Canonical , to whose belief S. Jerom at length conformed his own judgment . In his preface to the Book of Tobie he says : Yee desire me to translate a booke from the Caldean language , to Latin , the book of Tobie , which the Hebrews admit not into the Catalogue of Sacred Scriptures , J have satisfied your desire , &c. The Hebrews reprehend vs &c. Because we have translated into latin things against their Canon . But I judged it better to displease the judgment of Pharisees , then disobey the commands of Bishops , &c. In conformity to this he says in his preface of Iudith : With the Hebrews the book of Iudith is read amongst the Agiographa , the authority wherof is judged less fit to decide controversie , &c. But because the Nicen Synod is read to have computed this book in the number of holy Scripturs , J have acquiesced , or complyed with your demand . Out of which words it is manifest 1. That St. Jerom was not of the same opinion with the Iews concerning these books , because he says he displeased or offended their judgment by his translation , as a thing against their Canon , which would not have ●in , vnless his intention in translating and judgment were known to favour the belief of the Bishops and Christians , that held them to be Canonical ; for , the translating them only as pious books , could not be offensive to the Iews , who acknowledged them for such , as Cozins with Chemnitius and all Protestants confess , though ( pag. 82. ) he contradicts him-self ( having no other shift left to prove St. Ierom a Iew in this particular ) And his words of the book of Iudith demonstrat that he opposed the authority of the Nicen Councel against the opinion of the Iews , to prove that book Canonical , and fit to determin controversies of Religion ; and in case we should grant he doubted whether the Councel numbred it in the Canon yet non can doubt but that he believed the Councel had authority to declare it Canonical , which is the point disputed of . But Doctor Cozins would willingly make us believe ( by a notorious fraud and imposture ) that Cardinal Belarmin doth not only acknowledg St. Ierom to have persisted still in his former opinion of excluding these controverted books from the Canon , but also that the Councel of Nice never received that of Iudith into it , and to that purpose ( pag. 45. ) quotes Belarmin's words ( de verbo Dei lib. 1. c. 10. vlt. ) thus , Admitto Hieronymum in ea fuisse opinione , quia nondum generale Concilium de his libris aliquid statuerat ; These words the honest Protestant Bishop of Duresme setts down in capital letters , and with them concluds Cardinal Belarmin's sentence and sense concerning Hierom's opinion of the book of Iudith , and of the Councel of Nice ; and most vnconscionably cuts of the words immediatly following , where Belarmin says the quite contrary of what Cozins imposed vpon his Readers , to make good his English Canon of Scripture . The words immediatly following are : Excepto libro Iudith , quem etiam Hieronimus postea recepit : Except the booke of Iudith , which also Hierom afterwards received , as Canonical . So that where Cozins says Belarmin confesseth that S. Hierom sayd the Councel of Nice declared not the book of Iudith Canonical , Belarmin in that very place says the quite contrary . And in the same page cap. 12. Belarmin proves by S. Hieroms testimony and words , that the book of Iudith was declared Canonical in the highest degree by the Nicen Councel . It were to be wished that Ecclesiastical promotions had bin better bestowed then upon 139 men whose labour and learning 〈◊〉 altogeather employed in seducing souls , concealing the truth of Religion from their flocks , and corrupting the writings of the ancient Fathers and modern Doctors of the Church , for no other reason but because they speak so cleerly against the Protestant Doctrine of these times , wherby our Prelatick Ministers are maintained , vsurping vast revenues from the Crown , and come to the greatest preferments both of Church and State. I have not seen any one Protestant Writer free from this fault ; 't is strange that after so manifest and manifould discoverys as have bin made of Mortons , Andrews , Fox , Sutclif , Jewell , Barlow , Whitaker , Willet , Vsher , Lauds , and others , falsifications , frauds , and labyrinths , there should be men yet found to follow their examples ; and much more to be wondred that they should thrive by a trade so base , vnconscionable , and distructive , notwithstanding so manifest and frequent discoveries of their impostures . As to this work of Doctor Cosins , it may be properly called a Cosenage , independently of an allusion to his name ; had not his book bin sufficiently confuted by the absurdity of his fundamental principles , denying that the Apostles or Christian Church could declare any book of the old Testament , Canonical , which the Iews omitted or rejected , and affirming that no parts of the New Testament were ever questioned by any Church ancient or modern , I should set down many more of his willful falsifications , and weake evasions ; but that labour being rendred superfluous by the incoherency of his own doctrin , and by the inconsistency of his principles with including in that Canon of Scripture ( which he vndertakes to defend ) the epistles above mentioned of Peter , Iohn , Paul , and Iude , and the Apocalyps ( for it is evident by the quoted testimonies both of ancient Fathers and learned Protestants , that these epistles of Iohn Iude , Peter and Paul , as also the Apocalyps , were doubted of by many Christian Churches , for three or foure ages ) I do not think fitt to trouble the Reader nor my self with a more particular confutation of this rather fantastical then Scholastical History of the Canon of Scripture : fantastical J say , because he fancies to him-self that the authority and sayings of men who writ before this controversy had bin decided by a general Councel , and at the same time professed a faith which obliged them so submit ther writings and judgments to the decrees of Councels , can be of any force against that general Councel by which the contrary was decided , and they would have bin guided by , if they had bin now living , as St. Austin saith of St. Cyprian in a point of doctrine which was determined by a general Councel against the holy Martyrs opinion , long after his death . Whosoever can take delight in seing the pittifull shifts , and sleights wherby interested writers endeavour to blind mens eyes , and vnderstandings , let him peruse this book of Doctor Cozins and he will find more sport in observing how he tosses and turns the sayings of the Fathers against them-selves , then could be wished in so serious a subject . When the Fathers call the books of Macabees , Tobie , Judith , &c. sacred and Divine Scripture , Canonical Scripture prophetical writings of Divine authority , &c. Holy inspirations , revelations &c. he tels you ( pag. 93. & alibi passim ) all this must be understood in a large and popular sence , though the contrary may appeare to any vnbyass'd judgment that will read the words by him cited ( pag. 92. & alibi ; ) in the Authors themselves ; as for example let any one observe how Doctor Cozins mingles and mangles S. Austin's words concerning the controverted books of the Machabees , and afterwards see what the St. him-self says , he will ●●rce believe the words are the same , and may swear the sense is not . For , S. Austin ( lib. 2. de doctr . Christ. cap. 8. ) sets down as his own sense the same Canon of Scripture which the Councel of Trent accepts and confirmeth , and he subscribed unto in the third Councel of Carthage ; And because he knew that this Canon had not bin defined by a general Councel , and therfore many Churches and Fathers doubted of some books , which he and the 3. Councel of Carthage held for Canonical , he gives some instructions how they who do not follow his Canon , shall proceed vntill they be more fully informed , or the matter decided ; and these instructions which he sets down for others , who doubted and differ'd in opinion from him , Doctor Cozins wilfully mistakes and misapplies to St. Austin him-self , as if he could be ignorant of his own belief of the Canon . He is also troubled that St. Austin doth favour so much the doctrine of Purgatory , and the authority of the Catholick Church ( in declaring books of the Old Testament to be Canonical , which were rejected by the Iews ) as to say ( lib. 18. de Civit. Dei c. 36. ) That the books of the Machabees are accompted Canonical by the Church , although not by the Jews . To weaken this testimony he brings an other that strengthens it , and quotes St. Austin's words ( Ep. 61. ad Dulcitium ) wherin confuting the error of the Circomcellions who ( to cloake their self-homicides with text and examples of Scripture ) excused that doctrin with the examples of Eleazarus and Razias , related in the Machabees ; which pretext St. Austin largly confutes not only in his epistle ad Dulcit , but in his 2. book against the epistle of Gaudent . cap. 23. not by deminishing the Canonical authority of the books of the Machabees as Doctor Cozins falsly imposeth vpon his Readers [ pag. 108. & seq . ] but by declaring how the Scripture doth indeed relate , yet not commend the self-homicide of Eleazarus and R●zias , nor canonize them Martyrs , or propose their deaths to be imitated , though it cannot be denyed but that they shew'd great worldly courage , and contempt of life . Did Doctor Cozins imagin that Dulcitius , Gaudentius , and other learned Circumcellions were such Coxcombs , as to prove their Religion by Scripture , and then to quote for Scripture a book which their Adversaries admitted not at least for so Canonical as that controversies of Religion could be therby decided ? or doth he think that St. Austin would not have put them in mind of that folly in very cleer termes , and excuse farther disputes by telling them plainly , and without going about the bush , that the Machabees was not Canonical Scripture nor fit to be quoted in matters of Religious controversies ? But the Doctor argues ( pag. 110. ) that St. Austin tells Gaudentius , the Christian Church receiveth those books not vnprofitably , if they be discreetly or soberly read or heard , what then ? All discreet and sober men say the same , not only of the books of the Machabees , but of all the other books , and parts of Scripture ; and St. Peter sayth the same in substance of St. Paul's epistles : Will the Doctor conclude from thense , that St. Paul's epistles are not Canonical Scripture ? because men may read them indiscreetly , and deprave them to their own damnation ? Or that there is no Scripture at all , because he himself or some of his Bishoprick of Duresme do not read the Bible with sobriety and discretion ? these words of St. Austin in the Doctor 's judgment ( pag. 108. ) are so cleerly against the Canonical authority of the Machabees , that he says Cardinal Belarmin layd his thumb vpon them , and durst not relate them . I am sure he pointed at them with his Pen , and directed all the world to see and examin them by his quoting the book and Chapter where they are , as my Lord of Duresme him-self confesseth in the margent : neither could Belarmin , Peron , or any o●her Catholick Writer observe any disadvantage to their cause in those following words of S. Austin , Which Doctor Cozins pretends to be so notoriously prejudicial ; Recepta est ab Ecclesia non invtiliter &c. The Machabees is received by the Church for holy Scripture not vnprofitably , if it be soberly read or heard . That is , sayth Doctor Cozins [ pag. 110. ] As St. Augustin els wher expoundeth him-self ( but where , Doctor Cozins doth not , because he cannot tell ) If those things that we read there , be conferred with the sacred and Canonical Scriptures , that whatsoever is therevnto agreeable may be approved , and what is otherwise , may be rejected . According to this acute explanation , which Doctor Cozins falsly fathers vpon S. Austin , the most profane books , and Romances , Esop's Fables , and Don Quixote , may be received by the Church for holy Scripture , as well as the Machabees , if those things that we read therin be conferr'd with the sacred and Canonical Scriptures and whatsoever is thervnto agreable be approved , and what is otherwise be rejected . It were too tedious to note all Doctor Cozins his mistakes . Let these few serve to know by what a pillar the English Canon and Church is supported . SECT . IV. Protestants so grossly mistaken in their letter and Translations of the Scriptures that they can not have any certainty of faith ; and are forc't at length ( by their principles ) to question the truth of Scriptures , and of them who writ the Canonical books therof . THe holy Scriptures were writen by the Prophets , Apostles , and Evangelists , either in Hebrew , Greeck , or Latin ; the old Testament ( excepting some few parts writen in Chaldaick , and Syriack ) was writen in Hebrew , the new Testament , for the greatest part , in Greeck , S. Mathew's Ghospel in Hebrew , S. Marck's in Latin. We have not the original writings of these Prophets and Apostles , nor of the 70. Interpreters who translated the old Testament into Greek some 300. years before the comming of Christ ; we have only Copies ; for the truth and exactness wherof , we must rely vpon the testimony , and tradition of the Church , which in so important a point , God would never permit to err ; at least it must have bin so infallible therin , as that the Copy be sufficiently authentick to be a rule of deciding controversies of faith , and of directing men to holiness of life ; though perhaps no copy is so exact but therin may remain some erratas of the press and pen ; yet easily discoverable by it's coherency or incoherency with other parts of the Text. Notwithstanding the necessity of admitting some true and authentick copy of Scripture [ for what can it availe a Christian to believe that Scripture is the word of God , if he be vncertain which copy or Translation is true and authentick Scripture ] Protestants pretend there is no authentick copy of Scripture in the world , as may be seen in the preface of the Tigurin edition of the Bible , and in all their books of Controversy , seing therin they condemn the Councel of Trent for declaring that the old Latin Translation is authentick ; and yet themselves name no other for authentick : and therfore though the Lutherans fancy Luther's Translation ; the Calvinists that of Geneva ; the Zuinglians that of Zuinglius ; the English some times one , somtimes an other ; yet because they do not hold any one to be infallibly authentick , it followeth ( from their exceptions against the infallibility of the Roman Catholick Church in declaring or decreeing a true and authentick copy of Scripture , and their confession of the vncertainty of their own translations ) that they have no certainty of Scripture , nor even of faith , which they ground vpon Scripture alone . Most of the old Testament as it is in the vulgar Latin Translation , which the Councel of Trent declares to be authentick , was (a) ●ranslated out of Hebrew by St. Hierom ; and the new Testament had bin before his time translated out of Greek , but was by him (b) revewed , and such faults as had crept in through negligence of the Transcribers , were corrected . You constraine , me sayth he , to make a new work of an old , that I after so many copies of the Scripture dispersed through the world , should sit as a certain Iudg , and determin which of them agree with the true Greek and in this Cathalogue he saith , Novum Testamentum graecae fidei reddidi ; vetus juxta haebraicum transtuli . The antiquity and sincerity of the first Interpreter , and the great Commendations therof to be seene in St. Austin de Civit. Dei lib. 18. c. 43. Non defuit temporibus nostris Presbiter Hieronymus homo doctissimus , & omnium trium linguarum peritissimus , qui non è Graeco sed ex : Haebraeo in Latinum eloquium easdem Scripturas converterit . Cujus tamen litterarum laborem Judaei fatentur esse veracem . And ( lib. 2. doct . Christi . cap. 15. ) togeather with the eminent Sanctity and learning of S. Hierom , forceth our Adversarie ( B●eza , to confess , Annotationibus in caput 1. Luc. ) That the old Interpreter seemeth to have interpreted the holy books with marveilous sincerity and Religion ; and [ in praefat . novi Testam . ] The vulgar edition I do for the most part embrace and preferr before all others . Carolus Molinaeus [ in nov . Testam . part . 30. ] I can very hardly depart from the vulgar and accustomed reading , which [ in Luc. 17. ] he professeth to preferr before Erasmus , Bucer , Bullinger , Brentius , the Tigurin Translation , and even before Iohn Calvins , and all others . Doctor Humfrey [ de ratione interpret . l. 1. pag. 74. ] The old Interpreter seemeth to be much addicted to the propriety of the words , and truly with too much anxiety , which I attribute more to Religion then ignorance . See also Pelicanus ( a learned Protestant writer ) his great prayses of the Translation of the Psalmes in the vulgar Latin edition in praef . in Psalterium an . 1584. See also Doctor Covell acknowledging in his answer to Burges pag. 94. The antiquity of the vulgar translation to be so great , that it was used in the Church a thousand three hundred years agone : and concluding pag. 91. That the most approved Translation authorised by the Church of England , is that which cometh neerest to the vulgar , and is commonly called the Bishops Bible . And Doctor Whitaker ( in his answer to Mr. Reynolds ( pag. 141. ) was pleased to moderat his former rayling against our vulgar Translation revewed by St. Hierom at the request of St. Damasus Bishop of Rome , saying , St. Hierom J reverence , Damasus I commend , and the work I confess to be Godly and profitable to the Church . The reason that moved the Protestants not to accept , or acquiesce in our vulgar Latin Translation so much commended by them-selves , and the ancient Fathers , is , because they would have as much liberty to reject the true letter as the true sence of Scripture their new doctrins being condemned by both . For had they granted that any one ancient Translation is authentik , how could Luther have had the impudence to thrust into the Text the word [c] alone , to assert his justification by only faith , [ Rom. 3.28 . ] or how could he omitt 2. Petr. 1. ( where it is sayd ) wherfore brethren labour the more that by good works you may make sure your vocation , this particle by good works ? How could Zuinglius have translated for this is my body , this signifies my Body , to maintain his figurative signification of the words , and cry down Christ's real presence in the B. Sacrament ? And so of all other Protestants Translations , wherof every one hath words added , and omitted in the Text , which cannot be justified or excused by any ancient copy of Scripture , extant in any language whatsoever . No mervaile therfore if the Lutherans reject the Calvinists Translation and the Calvinists that of Lutherans ; the TransTranslation Translation of the Divines of Basile is reproved by Beza , who says ( respon . ad defens . Cast. ) that it is in many places wicked , and altogeather differing from the mind of the holy Ghost . And Molinaeus [ in Testam . part . 20.30 . &c. ] saith of Beza , that in his Translation he actualy changed the Text : and of Calvin [ in Translation . Testam . nov . fol. 110. ] That he maketh the Text of the Ghospel to leap up and down , and that he vseth violence to the letter of the Ghospel , and besids this , addeth to the Text. As for the English Translation we have King James his true censure in the sume of the conference before his Majesty ( pag. 46. ) that he could never yet see a Bible well translated into English. His Royall judgment is confirmed by Mr. Carlile of Christ's dessent into Hell [ pag. 116. ] where he says of the English Translators , that they have depraved the sence , obscured the truth , and deceived the ignorant ; that in many places they do detort the Scripturs from the right sence &c. The Ministers of Lincoln Diocess in their abridgment of a book delivered to his Majesty the first of December , pag. 11. & seq . say , that the English Translation taketh away from the Text , addeth to the text , and that , somtyms to the changing or obscuring of the meaning of the Holy Ghost . Also Mr. Burg●s in his Apology ( sect . 6. ) sai●h how shal I approve vnder my hand a translation which hath many omissions , many additions , being somtyms sensless , somtyms contrary . Other precise and learned Protestants in a Treatise intituled A petition directed to his most excellent Majesty &c. [ pag. 76. ] say , Our Translation of the Psalmes comprised in our book of common prayer ▪ doth in addition , subtraction , and alteration differ from the truth of the Hebrew in 200. places at least , And make this the ground of their scruple to make vse of the common prayer . And these corruptions are so vndenyable , that Dr. Whitaker hath nothing to answer to Dr. Reynolds ( pag. 255. ) who objected them against the Church of England , but these words , What Mr. Carlile with some others , hath writen against some places translated in our Bibles , maketh nothing to the purpose , I have not sayd otherwise but that some things may be amended . These corruptions in the English Protestant Bibles are so many and so notorious , that Doctor Gregory Martin composed a whole book of them , and therin discovers the frauds wherby the Translators pretend to excuse them ; somtyms they recurred to the Hebrew Text : and when that spoke against their new doctrin and translation , then to the Greeck ; when that favoured them not , to some copy acknowledged by them-selves to be corrupted , and of no credit ; and when that no copy at all could be found out , to cloke their corruptions , the book or Chapter of Scripture that contradicts them , is declared Apocryphal ; and when that cannot be made probable , they fall down right upon the Prophets and Apostles that writ them , and say they might , and did err , even after the comming of the holy Ghost . This is not only Luther's shift , all Protestants follow their first reformer in this point , having the same necessity imposed vpon them by their own reformations and translations , so contrary to the known letter of Scripture . Luther being told by Zuinglius [ tom . 2. ad Luther . l. de Sacram. pag. 412. & seq . ] Thou dost corrupt the word of God , thou art seen to be a manifest and common corrupter and perverter of the holy Scriptures , how much are we ashamed of thee , who have hitherto esteemed thee beyond all measure , and now prove thee to be such a man ? Luther knowing all this to be true , had no way left to defend his impiety but by impudency , preferring him-self and his own Spirit , before that of them who writ the holy Scriptures , therfore ( tom . 5. Wittemberg . an . 1554. fol. 290. & in ep . ad Galat. cap. 1. after the English Translation fol. 33. & 34 ) he saith , Be it that the Church , Austin , and other Doctors , also Peter , Paul , yea an Angel from heaven teach otherwise , yet is my doctrin such as setteth forth God's only glory &c. Peter the chief of the Apostles did live and teach ( extra verbum Dei ) besides the word of God ; and against St. James his mentioning the Sacrament of Extreme Unction ( de Capti . Babyl . cap. de extrem . vnct . in tom . 2. Wittemberg . fol. 86. ) But though this were the epistle of James I would answer that it is not lawful for an Apostle by his authority to institute a Sacrament ; this apertaineth to Christ alone : As though thas blessed Apostle would publish a Sacrament without warant from Christ. See also what he says of Moyses his writings ( tom . 3. Wittemberg . in Psalm . 45. fol. 432. & 422. & tom . 3. Germ. fol. 40.41 . & in Colloq . mensal . Germ. fol. 152. & 153. ) The Century Writers of Magdeburg follow this doctrin of Luther [ Centur. 1. l. 2. cap. 10. col . 580. ] and particularly accuse St. Paul of error by the persuasion of St. Iames. Brentius also , ( whom Bishop Ievel in his defence of the Church of England ( pag. 473. ) termeth a grave and learned Father , affirmeth [ in Apol. Confess . cap. de Concil . pag. 900. ] that St. Peter chief of the Apostles , and also Barnabas after the holy Ghost received , togeather with the Church of Ierusalem , erred . Though Lutherans and Calvinists differ extreamly in many points of doctrin , yet in this of fallibility of the Apostles in faith and manners even after the receiving of the holy Ghost , they fully agree . Calvin him-self in his Comentary in omnes Pauli epistolas in Gallat . c. 2. vers . 14. pag. 612. reprehendeth Peter , Barnabas , and others ; and pag. 150. says , that Peter added to the schism of the Church , the indangering of Christian liberty , and the ouer-throw of the grace of Christ ▪ See him also in Act. c. 21. Clebitius a learned Calvinist ( in his Victoria veritatis argum . 5. ) impugneth St. Lukes report in the history of our Sauiours passion , saying , Matthew and Mark deliver the contrary , therfore Mathaeo & Marco duobus testibus plus adhiberi debet quam uni Lucae , qui Synaxi non interfuit , quemadmodum Mathaeus . To Mathew and Mark being two witnesses , more credit is to be given , then to one Luke . And Gualter ( in Act. 21. ) reproveth St. Paul's shaving of his head . And other Calvinists mentioned in Zanchius his epistle ad misc . sayd . If Paul should come to Geneva and preach the same houre that Calvin did , I would leave Paul and heare Calvin . And Lavaterus in his historia Sacramentaria ( pag. 18. ) affirmeth , that some of Luther's followers , not the meanest among their Doctors , sayd they had rather doubt of St. Paul's doctrin , the● of the doctrin of Luther , or of the confession of Augusta . This desperat shift being so necessary for waranting their corruptions of Scripture , and maintaining the fallibility of the Church in succeeding ages ( for the same reasons which conclude it infallible in the Apostles time , are applicable to ours , and to every former century ; other-wise it must be sayd that God's providence and promises were limited to few years , and him-self so partial that he regardeth not the necessities of his Church , nor the saluation of any person that lived after his Disciples , this impiety could not be rejected by the Prelatick Church of England without contradicting their brethren abroad , and their own principles at home . Therfore B. Iewel in his defence of the Apology for the Prelatick Church of England ( pag. 361. ) doth affirm , that St. Mark mistook Abracher for Abimelech , and St. Matthew , Hieremias for Zacharias ; And Mr. Fulck against the Remish Testament in Galat. 2. fol. 322. chargeth Peter with error of ignorance , and against the Ghospell ; and Doctor Goade in his Tower disputation with Campion ( the second days conference arg . 6. ) affirmeth that St. Peter did err in faith , and that , after the sending down of the holy Ghost vpon them . And Whitaker [ de Eccl. cont . Belarmin . Controv. 2. q. 4. pag. 223. ] saith : Jt is evident that even after Christ's Ascension , and the Holy Ghost's descending vpon the Apostles , the whole Church not only the common ●ort of Christians , but also even the Apostles them-selves erred in the vocation of the Gentills &c. yea Peter also erred : he further more also erred in manners &c. And these were great errors , and yet we see these to have bin in the Apostles even after the Holy Ghost descending vpon them . And truly if the Apostles were not only fallible , but did teach errors in manners and matters of faith , after the holy Ghost descending vpon them , their writings can be no infallible Rule to direct men to saluation ; which conclusion is so immediatly and cleerly deduced from this Protestant doctrin , that the supposal and premises once granted , their can be no certainty in Scripture ; and indeed this all the Reformers aymed at , though durst not say it , yet they did as well , and sufficiently declare what litle esteem they have for Scripture , though they make their ignorant flocks believe they teach them nothing but true Scripture , and the infallible word of God. SVBSECT I. Particular instances of Protestant Corruptions in the English Bible . THough it may seem superfluous to specify any corruptions of the English Translators of Scripture after so cleer testimonies , and confessions drawn from men of their own party , yet to excite a conscience , or at least curiosity in the Protestant Reader of examining further this matter , I will mention a few of many which he may find both in Doctor Gregory Martins book of this subject , and in the Remish Testament . To maintain by Scripture that Popery is , or at least savoreth Idolatry , by worshiping of Images , whersoever the Scripture speaks of Jdols , they translate Images , as 1. Jhon 4.21 . My babes keep your selves from Images . And , how agreeth the temple of God with Jmages . And be not worshipers of Images as some of them , &c. And 2. Paralip . 36. vers . 8. they added to the Text , words , that are not in the Greek , Hebrew , Latin , or any copy however so corrupted . The rest of the acts of Ioakim and the rest of the abominations which he did , and the carved Images that were layd to his charge , behold they are written &c. These words ( carved Images layd to his charge ) are added by the Protestant Translators , and not to be found in any copy or Text of Scripture in the whole world . And though for meere shame in some later editions this impiety hath bin corrected , and Jdols not Jmages put into the Text , yet to make the illiterat sort of people believe that they are the same thing , Image is put in the margent ; and in some places left vncorrected . The first Protestant Bishops in Queen Elizabeths reign not being able to prevaile with the deposed Catholick Bishops to consecrat them , as Scripture commands , by imposition of Episcopal hands , and therfore relying for their Caracter vpon the letters patents , supremacy , and election of the Queen , translated the Greek word Kerotonia [ which S. Hierom and all the Ecclesiastical writers before and after him translate , Ordination by imposition of hands they to make good I say their want of such an Ordination , by words of Scripture in the Bible which then they set forth ] translated the said Greeck word Ordination by Election : but their Successours who of late pretend to a more lawfull caracter then ever their Ordainers durst profess to have had received , or them-selves can make good , corrected this translation , and restored into the text Ordination by imposition of hands . To assert mariage of Priests , when St. Paul says Have we not power to lead about a woman ? they translate , insteed of woman ; wife ; but when he says in the same epistle , and vseth the same word , It is good for a man not to touch a woman , then they translate not wife , but woman . To cry down the Sacrifice of the Mass , they translate Temple , or Table , for Altar , elder for Priest. To discredit the worship and honour of Saints , they corrupt the words of the Psalm . 138. Thy friends O God , are become exceeding honorable ; their Princedom is exceedingly strengthned , thus How deere are thy Councells ( or thoughts ) to me o God : How great is the su'me of them ? To condemn vows of Chastity as impossible to be performed , they translate Matthew 19. v. 11. All men do not receive this saying , thus , All men cannot receive this saying . To assert the Supremacy , in King Henry 8. and Edward 6. days , they translated thus , submitt your-selves &c. vnto the King as chief head . 1. Peter . 2. But in Queen Elizabeths reign ( because she did not think the title of head of the Church so proper for one of her sex , they altered their Scripture , and translated , To the King as having preheminency , or as superiour . But when King James obtained the Crown , and seemed to affect much the supremacy , then Scripture spoke according to his humour , to the King as supreme . To excuse many of their corruptions and falls Translations , Doctor Whitaker writ a book , wherin he endeavored to shew that some Greek and Hebrew words might be taken in that sense which the English Translators gave them ; but he never could prove that the profane and Poetical signification wherunto the Translators and he had applyed them , could make sense in holy scripture , nor be accommodated to ecclesiastical disciplin , and Divine doctrin . And therfore Doctor Reynolds in his reprehensions of Whitaker's works , proves the absurdity of his defence , and of the English Translations , by this example . Suppose ( saith he ) that a yong spruce Minister should step into the pulpit , and exhort his Parish to prepare them-selves for the holy Communion , and the Anabaptists for baptism ; according to the stile and phrase of the English Protestant scripture , wherin Priest is caled elder , Church , Synagogue , holy ghost , holy wind , Lord Baal . Master , raine , Baptism washing , soule carcas . ( Because they had rather bury Christ's soul with his body , or deny that he had a soule , then confess it went to Limbus Patrum , and therfore they also translate Hell grave ; ) Sacrament secret , Beelzebub lord of afly , Angells Messengers ; The Minister therfore who according to the proper and ecclesiasticall sense of these words might have spoken sense thus , I that am your Priest placed in this Church by the holy Ghost , for the feeding of your soules , do denounce vnto you in the name of Christ our lord and Master , that vnless your soules be regenerated by Baptism , and prepared for the Sacrament of the Altar , you shall be condemned body and soule into hell , and your portion shall be with the Devills , I say with Beelzebub and his Angels ; the yong Minister I say in steed of this godly exhortation which might move the Audience to devotion , must in his own scriptural language move the parish to laughter , thus ; I that am your elder , placed in this synagogue by the holy wind , to the feeding of your Carcasses , do pronounce vnto you in the name of the anointed our Baal and raine , that vnless your Carcasses be regenerated by washing , and prepared for the secret of the Table , you shall be condemned body and carcass to the grave , and your portion shall be with the slanderers , I say with the lord of a fly and his Messengers . Let none therfore admire if Doctor Gregory Martin so celebrated for his knowledg in the Hebrew and Greek tongues ( which he taught in Oxford , ) should conclude his Treatie of the English corruptions of scripture with this zealous reprehention of the Protestant Clergy of his Nation Are not your scholars ( think you ) much bound vnto you , for giving them in steed of God's blessed word and holy scripture such translations Heretical , Judaical , profane , false , negligent , fantastical , new , naughty , monstrous ? God open their eyes to see , and mollify your hearts to repent of all your falshood , and treachery , both that which is manifestly convinced against you , and can not be denyed , as also that which may by some shew of answer be shifted of in the sight of the ignorant , but in your consciences , is as manifest as the other . For my part , J will not say much to the Protestant Clergy with any great hopes of their conversion ; there must by more of Divine inspiration then of human persuasion in bringing men to acknowledg corruptions so abominable in themselves ; so advantagious to the Contrivers , Continuers , an Connivers , and so much applauded by the poore souls that are seduced . My rhetorick is not sufficient to persuade bloud and flesh to recounce the Peerage and profit of their Bishopricks and Benefices , and reduce them-selves , their wives and Children , to their former despicable condition , and then either to beg their bread , or rely for a lively-hood vpon the charity of those , whom they had deceived by their doctrine or disobliged by their censures . To attempt so difficult an enterprise would argue as much vanity in me , as it doth folly in lay Protestants , that thinck , them-selves safe in conscience and sufficiently informed of the way of saluation , by asking a Protestant Bishop or Minister , whether he be a Cheat ? or ( which is the same thing ) whether the doctrine wherby alone he can live , and hope to thrive in this world , be not sufficient to save the soule ? Few men will confess their guilt , or pronounce an infamous sentence against them-selves , though they be guilty ; neither will it be a tollerable excuse in the day of Judgment for any discreet Protestant to say , that he made Judges of his Religion ( no indifferent but ) indigent persons , that have no other interest , credit , or lively-hood , but to preach and maintain Protestancy , whether it be sufficient or not sufficient for saluation , the Bishop or Minister lives by saying it is sufficient , and the true Religion . I can not deny but that some Protestant Bishops and Ministers have recanted and repented their errors ; but few , before they were summon'd out of this world by approaching death , or before they had lost their interest and hopes , by the violence of warr and the vicissitude of times . Wherfore seing the Protestant layty hath so much reason to doubt either of the sincerity o● sufficiency of their Clergy in matters of a Religion without which their Ministers can not subsist [ few of them having either patrimony , or a trade ] ; let them be pleased at present only to consider whether it be more credible that St. Hierom , the greatest Doctor of God's Church , and the most skilfull in the three languages wherin Scripture was writen , who lived in the primitive times , whem perhaps some of the original writings of the Apostles were extant , or at least the true and authentick copies , in Hebrew and Greeck , better known then now they are , a man that renouncd ' the pleasures and profits of this world , retiring him-self to deserts , where he employ'd days and nights in his devotions , and study of the Scriptures ; let them be pleased , I say , to consider , whether it be more credible that a Translation made or received by this most holy Doctor , ( and then approv'd of by all the world and ever since accepted and applauded in God's Church ) be defective , or deceitfull , then a translation made since the pretended Reforma●ion , by men not only engaged in that new doctrin , but maintain'd therby , and so addicted to the pleasures and profits of this world , as the first Reformers , and their Successours the Protestant Clergy are known to be , not only in England , but in all other parts of Christendom : Let them be pleased also to consider , whether the judgment of the Roman Catholick Clergy in these Kingdoms , ( who in being of that judgment , can have no motive , but conscience as is manifest by the incapacities and penalties lay'd vpon them for not conforming to Protestancy ) be not a more impartial , and less to be suspected rule for any prudent person to follow , then the judgment of the Protestant Clergy , rewarded , and promoted to the greatest employments both in Church and state , for being of that opinion they profess , and who would forfeit all their being if they declared them-selves contrary to Protestancy . This being as maturely and impartially considered as the importance of the matter doth require , non will believe that the vulgar Translations made by Protestants , is holy Scripture , they being so contrary to our vulgata in latin , translated out of the true Greeck and Hebrew copies , writen first by a holy Martyr , and after revewed by a St. whose sincerity and learning were sufficient to canonize his Translation , had it not bin the word of God , and most holy of it self , and so declared by the testimony and approbation of the Church for the space of 1200. years before the Councel of Trent . In vain therfore do Protestant Writers tell us that thei● Translations are taken immediatly from the fountains of the Greek and Hebrew , so is our vulgata ; only with this difference , that ours was taken from the fountains when they were cleere , and by holy and learned men that knew which were the crystal waters , and true copies , but theirs is taken from fountains of trouble'd waters , by lewd and vicious persons , and after that the Arians and other Hereticks had poyson'd and corrupted them with their false and filthy doctrin . Thus much against the Protestant letter of Scripture ; now to their sense of Scripture . SECT . V. The Protestant interpretation is not the true sense of Scripture . THE principal part , and as it were the soule of Scripture , is the sence , which was delivered to the Church togeather with the letter . For as St. Hierom [ in ep . ad Galat. ] sayth , the Ghospel is not in the word , but in the sence , not in the bark , but in the sapp , not in the leaves of the words but in the root of the meaning ; So that though we should grant the Protestant Translations to be true , yet if we prove their interpretation false , we demonstrat they have no Scripture , nor the least pretext or colour for their Reformations . And first , that the Church received togeather with the letter the true sense of Scripture , is as evident as it is , that God would not speak words without sense , or leave the interpretation of them to men whose capacities reach not the mysteries of Religion , contained in the words . Therfore our learned Adversaries are obliged to confess , that no man doubteth , but that the primitive Church received from the Apostles and Apostolical men , not only the text of Scripture , but also the right and native sense therof . The dispute therfore between Catholicks and Protestants is not , whether the Church ever received the true sense of Scriptures , but whether that sense continued as well as the letter in the Church ; and whether the interpretations of Luther , Calvin , Cranmer , Hamond , &c. or of the Prelaticks of England , ought to be preferr'd before that of the Roman Catholick Church ; because the true sense of Scripture , is supposed by all Protestants , to have bin lost for many ages , and that the whole visible Church of God was either so careless as to forget the ancient sense , or so wicked , as to forge a new sense of Scripture . And first it seems against reason , to believe that any Christian Congregation could be less carefull of the sense of Scripture , then of the letter , because the sense is that which importeth most for preservation of the faith . Therfore if the Prelats and Pastors of the Church have bin so watchfull and diligent in all ages , as to find out and correct all heretical corruptions of the letter of Scripture , how is it possible they would neglect the same industry for preservation of the sense which is the principal part of God's word ? And if Protestants think the letter was safe in the custody of the Roman Chatholick Church , from which they received it , how can they suspect the purity of that sense which was kept and delivered to them by the same Church and authority ? And if God's providence ( as they confess ) was engaged in keeping the leaves , and letter of Scripture from corruption , surely it could not be so vnconcern'd for the integrity of the sence , and substance , as to permit it to perish . Besides , it is much easier to keep the sense of Scripture incorrupt and pure , then the letter : The letter was writ only in paper or parchment , the sense in the heads and hearts of the Bishops , Doctors , and People of the Church : a dash of a pen may alter the letter , but cannot have access to the sence , which lodgeth in the hearts and heads of the faithfull . The precept of receiving the sense of Scripture from the Church , is not only agreable to reason , but prescrib'd in Scripture , as the only way of saluation . Go not from the doctrin of the elders , for they have learned it from their Fathers , and of them thou shalt learn vnderstanding , and to answer in the time of need . Eccles. 8.8 . The first Protestant Reformers observed not this , they went to no precedent Church , nor Fathers for their interpretation of Scripture ; and therfore the words of Ieremy 18.15 . may be literally applyed to them . They have stumbled from the ancient ways to walk in ways not troden . The Protestant Clergy ought to say and confess ingeniously that of holy Iob 8.8 . Jnquire therfore I pray thee of the ancient generation and prepare thy self to search of their Fathers , for we are but yesterday , and ought not intrude their own Imaginations as the true explanation of God's word . They do not imitat St. Gregory Nazianzen and St. Basil who as Eusebius relates [ Hist. l. 11. cap. 9. ] did seek the vnderstanding of the Scriptures not from their own presumption , but from the writings and authority of their Ancestors . They do not follow the rule of Origen saying [ tract . in Math. 29. ] That in our vnderstanding of the Scripture we must not d●part from the first Ecclesiasticall tradition , nor believe other-wise , but as the Church of God hath by succession delivered to us . Nor that of Tertulian [ l. 1. de prescrip . c. 6. ] What the Apostles preach'd , what Christ reveal'd to them , ought not be otherwise proved then by the Churches which they planted . Protestants contemn all these rules , and because there was never any Church in the world which professed the same faith that any of their Reformers preach't , or them-selves now profess , they are necessitated to except against all Testimonies of ancient Fathers and Councels , and against the continual and common consent of all Christian Churches concerning the proper sense of Scripture , delivered to the primitive Christians : and will be judg'd therin by none but by them-selves , and by their own fancy of Scripture . They all follow this rule of Luther the first Reformer , which he layd as the foundation of all Protestant Reformations : The Governours of Churches , and Pastors of Christ's sheep have indeed power to teach , but the sheep must judg whether they propose the voice of Christ , or of strangers , &c. Whefore let Popes , Bishops , Councels &c. decree , order , enact , what they please , we shall not hinder , but we who are Christ's sheep , and heare his voice , will judg , whether they propose things true and agreable to the voice of our Pastor ; and they must yeeld to us , and subscribe and obey to our sentence , and censure . Luther tom . 2. Wittemb . cap. de Sacra Script . fol. 375. And because B. p Jewel in his challenge ( thinking that none durst answer or accept it ) appeal'd to the holy Fathers of the first ages , and was thervpon immediatly convicted of hypocrisy , and impostures , he was grievously reprehended by his own Prelatick brethren as injurious to him-self , and as one who had given the Papists too large a scope , and after a manner spoyl'd him-self and the Church , see Doctor Humfrey in Iewel 's life edit . Londin pag. 212. and the same also in Fulk's retentive against Bristow pag. 55. Ever since that foile , the Prelatiks have bin more wary , and one of their greatest Champions Bilson Bishop of Winchester in his true difference between Christian subjection &c. part . 2. pag. 353. saith in plain termes The people must be discerners and Judges of that which is taught . How contrary to Luther's Reformation was the doctrin of the primitive Church and Fathers , we may judg by these words of Gregory Nazianzen in the oration , wherin he excuseth him-self for having bin long absent from his flock and not exercised his function . Vos Oves , nolite pascere Pastores , neque super terminos eorum elevamini , satis enim est vobis , si recte pascimini , nolite judicare iudices , nec legem feratis legis-latoribus &c. Now let any man who hath common sense be Judg , whether it be in the least degree probable that not only the illiterat Protestants , but even their greatest Doctors , and their first Apostles , Luther , Calvin , Cranmer &c. should know better the true sense of Scripture that was delivered to the first age , then they to whom those of that age told what they were taught by Christ and his Apostles , or then the second which told the third what they were taught by the first ? and so from generation vntill Luther and Calvins tyme. That every age gave this favorable testimony to the subsequent , of the sense of Scripture which it delivered , can not be denyed ; otherwise none would have received their sense of Scripture , or their doctrin , as Divine ; whether they were sincere in delivering their testimony is the question ; And because none questions it but Luther , Calvin &c. and their followers , vntill we see be ter evidence and a more cleere cause of their reformed principle and knowledg of the visible Churches apostasy , then their privat spirit , or Luther and Calvins new and extravagant interpretations of Scripture , we dare not condemn the whole ancient visible and Catholick Church , nor concurr with it's declared enemies in so rash a judgment , as to affirm , that the Church betrayed it's trust , and posterity ▪ which rash judgment is the ground of the Protestant Reformations . S. Athanasius in lib. de Decretis Nicen. Synod . contra Euseb. Ecce nos quidem ex Patribus ad Patres , per manus traditam fuisse hanc sententiam demonstravimus ; vos autem O novi Judaei , Caiphae filii , quos tandem nominum vestrorum potestis ostendere progenitores . S. Gregor . Nazian . ep . 2. ab Chelid . Absconditam post Christum sapientiam nobis annunciant , rem lacrymis dignam , si enim triginta his annis fides originem habuit , cum quadringenti ( now 1600. ) fere anni ab eo tempore fluxerint quo Christus palam conspectus est , inane tanto tempore fuit Evangelium , inanis etiam fides nostra ; & Martyres quidem frustra martyrium subierunt , frustra etiam tales tantique Antistites populo praefuerunt . St. August . de vtilit . credendi cap. 14. saith , to the Manichees , what we may to the Protestant Reformers . Vos autem & tam pauci estis , & tam turbulenti , & tam novi , nemini dubium est , quoniam nihil dignum autoritate proferetis . Seing therfore the Roman Catholick sense of Scripture hath for the space of 1600. years bin delivered by the visible Christian Church from age to age , as the true meaning of God's word ; and that the Protestant sense of Scripture was never accepted of by any but condemned Hereticks , and even in this last age was delivered but by a few turbulent and disagreeing persons , and obnoxious ●o many exceptions much diminishing the credibility of their testimony ; it is at least 16. to one , not only in the number , but also in the quality of the witnesses , that the Roman Catholick sense of Scripture is true , and the Protestant false ; and by consequence the Protestants have no Scripture to maintain the doctrin wherin they differ from Roman Catholicks . SECT VI. Protestants mistaken in the Ministery and Mission of their Clergy , in the Miracles of their Church , in the holiness and honesty of their Reformers . ALbeit God was able to call , justify , and confirm the elect without any mediat means , yet ( as Protestants confess ) he was pleased , not to accomplish the same otherwise then in , and by the ministery of his Church . Therfore S. Paul tells vs [ Ephes. 4.11.12.13 . ] that Christ hath placed in his Church Pastors and Doctors to continue to the consummation of Saints till we all meet in the vnity of faith . The chief of these Pastors and Doctors are the Bishops , vnto whom ( as the same Apostle testifieth ) it belongeth to govern God's Church [ Act. c. 2● . ] These Bishops must succeed not only in Doctrin , but in caracter to the Apostles ; which caracter is the ordinary ministery or vocation , discern'd and received by imposition of Episcopal hands [ 1. Tim. 4. ] But because Luther was only a single Priest , and Calvin ( as most say ) not so much as a Priest , and that both despaired of Episcopal and Priestly succession , they resolv'd to remedy that want , by saying that the caracter of Priests and Bishops was not distinct from that of Baptism ; and wheras , Luther's ordination or ordinary vocation in the Roman Catholick Church , was , to preach the doctrin which he had receiv'd from that Church , and not his new doctrinal Reformation , [a] he and all Reformers after him , pretended an extraordinary and immediat vocation and mission from God , to teach an other faith contrary to that which the then visible Church professed , and could not be proved that any precedent Congregation ever held . If there had been right beleevers saith Georgius Milius pag. 138. that went before Luther in his office there had then bin no need of a Lutheran Reformation . Therfore we say that Luther was raised vp ( divinitus & extra ordinem ) by God's special apointment and extraordinarily . See Luther in loc . Com. class . 4. pag. 51. Bucer in epist. ad Episcop . Hereford . calls Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrin . Beza in epist. Theolog. ep . 5. Ergo de extraordinaria vocatione videamus Huic vero tum demum locum esse dicimus , cum vel nulla , vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio , sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu , cum expectari extraordinaria vocatio , quae nusquam erit , nec debuit , nec potuit . Bishop Iewell in his Apology for the Church of England part . 4. cap. 4. divis . 2. And in his defence of the Apology pag. 426. The truth was vnknown at that time when Martin Luther and Vldrick Zuinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospel . Mr. Parkins in his exposition vpon the Creed , pag· 400. and in his works printed 1605. fol. 365. And in his reformed Catholick , pag. 329. We say that before the days of Luther , for the space of many hundred years , an vniversal Apostasy overspread the whole face of the earth , and that our Church was not then visible to the world . Calvin in Institut . lib. 4. cap. 3. sect . 4. Quod Dominus nobis iniunxit , &c. Lascicius in proof of his extraordinary vocation , lib. de Russorum Relig. pag. 23. alledgeth Calvin saying . Because the succession or Series of ordination hath bin interrupted by the Pop's tyranny , there is need of a new subsidy , &c. And this guift was altogeather extraordinary . Mr. Fulk against Stapleton , pag. 2. The Protestants that first preacht in these last days had likwise extraordinary calling . Mr. Perkens saith the same in his works printed 1605. fol. 916. Mr. Symonds , pag. 123. vpon the Revelations , affirmeth a calling to preach by the civil Magistrat , a holy and sufficient calling ( saith he ) in the time of these confusions . But this pretext and presumption of theirs is groundless 1. Because the ordinary Ministery of Christ's Church being to continue ( as S. Paul says ) to the consummation of Saints , and end of the world , there could be no necessity of an extraordinary contrary mission or ministery ; but rather it must be concluded that there is an impossibility therof , seing it is impossible that God should send men to contradict him-self or that doctrin , which he promised should continue vntill he day of judgment by the Ministery and means of the ordinary Pastors and Doctors of the Church . 2. Whensoever God sent any extraordinary Ministers or Reformers , he confirm'd their mission and Ministery with vndoubted miracles , as is manifest by the example of Moyses , and the Prophets of the old Testament , and of the Apostles in the new . But no such thing appeared in Luther or any Protestant . Their ordinary excuse that Miracles are ceased in the Church , is confuted by their [b] own acknowledging that in the Indies , God , by means of the Jesuits and other Catholick Preachers , worketh Miracles for the conversion of Pagans . And Philippus Nicolai confesseth that the Jesuits and other Spanish and Portugal Preachers , converted both Indies , Iapon , Cataia , &c. And wrought many true Miracles in those parts , and in our age , but Withall addeth lib. 1. of his Comentaries de Regno Christi , pag. 91. 312. & 313. 314. 318. & 219. That such Miracles wrought by the Jesuits and other professed Papists , proceed not from their faith as it was Roman Catholick , but as it was Lutheran . See him pag. 91. & 53. & pag. 91. he sets down some mysteries of Christianity , wherin Lutherans agree with Roman Catholick , and attributs the Miracles to them only ; concluding . Hucvsque enim Lutheranisant . Wheras it is well known that the Jesuits inculcat to their Pr●selits in all parts of the world the Romnn Catechisms , and in the Indies , Iapon , China , &c. bid them beware of the English , Holanders , and other Protestants doctrin , as of heresy : And many of their Miracles are wrought at ●he intercession of our B. Lady S. Jgnatius , S. Francis Xaverius , &c. and by application of their Reliques . Mr. Hartwell is more reasonable ; he confesseth loc . cit . that the conversion of Congo was accomplished by massing Priests , and after the Romish manner , and this action ( saith he ) which tendeth to the Glory of God , shall it be concealed , and not committed to memory , because it was perform'd by Popish Priests , and Popish means ? God forbid . Now if God works miracles for the Conversion of Pagans to our Catholick Religion , it must be confessed , that either ours is the true Religion , or that God deceives those poore soules which by our Ministery , and his miracles are thervnto converted . Besid's ; if what Protestants say , and that whervpon they ground their Reforma●ions , be true viz , that for above 1000. years the true Church hath bin invisible , or suppress'd , and the world abused by Popish Impostors , and counterfeited miracles , &c. the innocent and illiterat Papists ( who are supposed to have bin seduced ) seeme as fit an object for Divine mercy , and miracles , as the Indian Idolaters : But seing not one vndoubted miracle hath ever bin wrought to convert them from Popery to Protestancy , it must necessarily follow , that either God doth not approve of Protestancy , or hath altered the vsual Stile of his providence , which never failed to work miracles for the conversion of the Israelits , and Hereticks when most guilty of heresy and idolatry . T' is strang he should not observe the same custom with Popish Christians , and convert them by the means and miracles of holy Protestants , if these be his chosen people , and sent by him to preach the Ghospel . Not on Protestant Preacher could hitherto be prudently taken for an ordinary Prophet , or for a person of extraordinary piety ; even the first Protestant Reformers are convicted of dishonest dealing , and scandalous conversation , and are farr from that degree , J do not say , of sanctity , but of morality , requir'd in men pretending to reform others . We grant that a true Religion may be abused by the wickedness of it's Professors , yet never was the truth of Religion planted , or revived by the ministery of wicked persons . Let us run over all Christendom , and we shall find every Province therof converted to the Roman Catholick Religion by men not only Apostolical in their lives , and conversation , but also in Miracles . We shall find ( not to leave our own Ilands ) an Austin in England , a Patrik in Ireland ; a Columban in Scotland , and almost in every county of these Kingdoms a miraculous Saint that converted our Ancestors to Popery . How incredible therfore is it , that Protestancy can be the true Religion , seing that in all the world they cannot name one Protestant eminent for Sanctity , Miracles , or morality . Cranmer carried his wench with him in his Episcopal visitations ; Bale says him-self was inspired to take a sweet-heart called Dol ; Bishop Poynet went to law with a Butcher for his wife ; Peter Martyr , and Bucer came to preach into England , each of them having a Nun for a wife ; Calvin kept a Gentleman of Lausanna his wife ; Beza run away with the wife of a Taylor ; And as for the Protopatriarch , and first Apostle of all the Protestant Reformations Luther , himself confesseth ( loc . com . class . 4. pag 50. ) that from his infancy he was haunted by the Devill , and to be rid of him entred the Religious Order of St. Austin ; but afterwards the Devil prevail'd in a reall , not imaginary dispu●ation against him , concerning the abrogation of the Mass , adoration of the Sacrament , and invocation of our B. Lady and other Saints ; and he resolved ( having bin convicted by the Devill 's argument to for-sake his Order , and set vp Protestancy , which never had bin heard of before . And wheras during the time he lived amongst his friars , he acknowledgeth that he lived chastly , and virtuously , yet after his revolt from the Roman Catholick Religion , he professeth in sundry places of his writings , that he could not live without a woman , and none could serve his turn but a Nun , whom he debauched out of her Monastery . Luther tom . 1. epist. fol. 334. & Colloq . Germ. cap. de Matri . Eight days were now past wherin I neither did write , pray , nor study , being vexed with the temptation of the flesh , &c. As none can abstain from meat or drink , so he cannot from a woman &c. But it suffiseth that we have known the riches of the glory of God , the lamb which taketh away the sins of the world , can not draw us from him although we should commit fornication , or kill a thousand times in one day . His pride was so excessive that his Disciples are ashamed of him , and have endeavored ( by altering many things in the later editions of his works ) to conceale the impiety of his Tenets , and the imperfections of his person ; He was a better Drol then Doctor ; sociable , but scandalous . Melanchton excusing Luther's scandalous mariage in epistol . ad Ioan. Camer pag. 39. saith , Est vir iste nequaquam ex iis qui homines oderunt , & congressus fugiunt , quotidianae autem vitae illius vsum non ignoras , vnde cogitare te caetera , quam me scribere , melius ut opinor fuerit . He wanted not wit to se the meakness of his Zealous Proselits , and was so facetiously wicked as to laugh at them for relying vpon one Luther in a matter of so great importance as the chang of Christian Religion , against the testimony of the whole visible Church , and the sense of all ancient Fathers and Councels ; and therfore was vsed to say when he was merry amongst his confidents , and Camerades in the Alehouses of Wittemberg , Bibentibus nobis cervisiam Wittembergensem crescit Evangelium : That the Ghospel was zealously preached ( by fooles ) while he made good cheer with friends . He spent his life in good fellowship ; and Sleydan his deer Schollar ( lib. 3. edit . 1521. fol. 29. ) reporteth , how that Luther him-self acknowledged his profession not to be of life or manners , but of doctrin , wishing ( l. 2. ed. 1520. fol. 22. ) that he were removed from the office of preaching , because his manners and life did not answer to his profession : wherfore it was vsual with such Protestants as knew his life and conversation to say when they resolved to give them-selves to pleasure , and debauche : bodie Lutheranice vivemus , to day we will live Lutheranlike : see Benedict Morgensterne in tract . de Ecclesia . pag. 221. His death was answerable to his life , in the morning he was found dead , having bin very merry and feasting him-self the night before . He attempted in vain two miracles , at the importunity of his Schollers ; the one was to revive a dead man ; the other was , to dispossess one of his own Disciples , according to his new form of Exorcisms ; But Staphylus , who was present , says , Luther was so fouly frighted , that in steed of chasing the Devil , him-self run away , and was in danger of being killed ; The want of success in these two attemps , made him say that miracles were ceased in the Church , and that all ours are but impostures , or don by compact with Sathan . Zuinglius Author of the Sacramentarian Religion , having bin tyed by Luther to no other rule of faith besides the letter of Scripture ( for he had bin Luther's scholler ) but differing from his Master in the point of the real presence , invented a new reformation , which he planted among the Suitzers ; and before he would impart it to them , he made (c) his conditions by way of petition ( yet extant in his works ) that if the Cantons would permit him and his Ministers who ioyned with him , to take wives , he would reveale to them the Evangelical doctrin , so long hidden . An other Epistle to the same purpose he writ to the Bishop of Constance : and the reason he gives for his demand is , least the soules committed ●o his own and his fellow's charge , should be any longer offended by the example of their sensuality . We have proved ( saith he ) that the weakness of our flesh hath bin ( O for grief ) cause of our often falling , &c. we have burned ( O for schame ) so greatly that we have committed many things vnseemingly , &c. To speake freely without boasting , we are not otherwise of such vncivil manners that we should be ill spoken of among the people to vs committed for any wickedness ( hoc vno exc●pto ) this one point only excepted . And confesseth tom . 1. fol. 115. that he and his fellow Ministers by means of their lustfull desires were made infamous before their Congregations . Himself and his Camerades having taken wives , or wenches , he began to reveale his Ghospel , and impugn the Mass by instruction from a spirit that appeared to him , [d] Whether black or white , he remembreth not . Having by this Diabolical dream or apparition , resolved to abolish the Mass , and change the doctrin of Transubstantiation by altering the Text of Scripture in his Translation ( dedicated to Francis King of France edit . Tigur . an . 1525. ) saying , This signifieth my Body , for This is my Body . Zuinglius tom . 2. de vera & falsa Religione . fol. 202. & fol. 210. He quotes his own Text of Scripture thus , Sic ergo habet Lucas , & accepto pane , gratias egit , &c. dicens , Hoc significat Corpus meum . He proceeded after a very strange manner in his design : for he confesseth that his doctrin was more accomodated to temporising liberty , then to sincerity or truth ; and that God commanded him to proceed in that manner , least his design should be quasht in the very beginning by his Adversaries , whom he termes Dogs and Swine . Retractamus igitur hic quae illic diximus , tali lege , vt quae hic damus anno aetatis nostrae quadragesimo secundo , propendeant eis quae quadragesimo dederamus : quando ut diximus , tempori potius scripsimus quam rei , sic jubente Domino , vt tali ratione aedificemus , ne inter initia Canes & Porci nos rumpant . He had no great opinion of the Apostles writings , as is proved by his altering the very Text of Scripture contrary to all copies both Greek and Latin , and by his saying , that S. Paul did not attribut so much to his own Epistles as to think that all therin contained was sacred ; for , that were to impute immoderat arrogancy to the Apostle ( tom . 2. Elench . contra Catabaptistas , fol. 10. ) And because the other Cantons of the Suitzers would not accept of this Reformation ; he sticking to the principles therof , endeavored by force of arms to bring them vnder subjection , and to his own Ghospel , and in this attempt Zuinglius was killed , sealing with his bloud what he had writ , ( tom . 1. in explanat . art , 42. fol. 84. ) that Kings and Magistrats may be deposed when they resist the Ghospel , that is any privat Protestant interpretation of Scripture . As for the Reformers of the Protestant Church of England , they were King Henry 8. Thomas Cranmer , Archbishop of Canterbury , Peter Martyr , Hooper , Rogers , Ridley , Bucer , Okin ; The Revivers were Jewel , Parker , Horn , &c. of whose lives and conversations we have sayd somthing , and enough to prove they were not fit men to reform christian Religion ; their doctrin they borrowed from Luther and Zwinglius ( the supremacy only excepted , which King Henry 8. invented ) and therfore Bishop Iewel the chief maintainer both of the Protestant doctrin and Prelatick caracter of the Church of England , in his defence of the Apology ( edit . 1571. pag. 426. as also in the Apology part . 4. c. 4. ) thought it necessary for the credit of the 39. Articles of the English Religion , which had bin compiled out of Luther and Zwinglius writings , to commend those two Pillars of Protestancy as most excellent men , even sent by God to give light to the whole world in the midst of darkness , when the truth was vnknown and vnheard of . As for B. p Iewel him-self , we remit the reader to Doctor Hardings Confutation of the Apology , wherin he may cleerly discern the false lustre of this counterfeit Jewel , and the value which men ought to set vpon this pretious stone , layd for a foundation of the Prelatick Church ; and vpon the rotten stuff which he and his Successours have sould for Divine truth to English Protestants ever since he vndertook , to maintaine their cause ; for as Doctor Heylin ingeniously acknowledgeth in his Ecclesia restaurata , all the learned English Protestant Writers have borrowed from B. p Jewel what they have sayd in defense of the Protestant Religion , and that is one reason why their works are so full of manifest vntruths , and them-selves so frequently convicted of gross mistakes ; they rely too much vpon this reviver of their faith ; or at least would make the world believe that he may be relyed vpon in matters of faith . But because Doctor Heylin makes it his busines to persuade the world , that Ievel then did make good the caracter and ordinary vocation of the Church of England against Harding ; and that Doctor Bramhall , late Protestant Primat of Ireland , triumph'd over the supposed Jesuits who renewed Harding's quarrel , I judged it necessary to cleer both these mistaks in few words ; As for Bishop Iewel , we have sayd in the 1. part sect . 7. of this Treatise how easily he might have stop't Harding's mouth by only naming the Bishop who consecrated Parker and his Camerades ; for , Harding vsed no other Argument against the nullity of the English Protestant Clergy , but this , A Bishop must be ordained by an other Bishop ; but Parker and his Camerades were not ordained Bishops by any other Bishop . Ergo. His proof that they were not ordain'd by any Bishop was this , name the Bishop that ordained them , name the place where they were consecrated . This was a demand soon satisfied if ever Parker or his fellows had bin ordained Bishops ; especially with so much ceremony and solemnity as the new records of Lambeth report that matter . Yet Jewel could never name Parker's and the first Protestant Bishops Consecrators ; he named indeed Parker for his own Consecrator , but being press'd by Harding to name Parkers , insteed of answering Harding's question , whervpon depended the whole controversy , the credit of his Clergy , and the satisfaction of the Reader , he maks an impertinent digression and long discours of the obligation which some pretended to have bin in ancient times , of consulting the Bishop of Rome before they proceeded to the election and consecration of Bishops , but never returned to the point of naming the first Protestant Bishop's Consecrator , whom he would have named to Harding , if ever they had bin consecrated . And this is one part of the great victory , which Doctor Heylin so much brags of . The other part concerns Bramhall and the supposed Iesuits . The true relation wherof is as followeth . After that his Majesty and the Royal Family had bin driven out of England and France by the late vsurped powers : and all Christian Princes thought it their conveniency to court the Rebells , and not entertain in their Dominions the Person of our King , much less embrace his quarrell ; it happen'd on day at Bruges , that Doctor Crouder Chaplain to his Royal Highness the Duke of York , in his Master's Chamber and presence , without any provocation , or occasion given by any of the Roman profession , vtter'd very intemperat words against Doctor Goff Almoner to the Queen Mother , for having taken orders in the Church of Rome , after that he had received them in the Church of England ▪ To which a Catholick Gentleman answered , he had don no more then what all other Protestant Ministers who became Roman Priests , had continually practised , and ( as he believed ) vpon good grounds . Whervpon the Doctor ( notwithstanding the King was come to his Brother's chamber ) reassum'd his Argument , and continued to dispute with such vehemency , that being caled to read morning prayers , he mistook the time of the day , and in the morning read evening prayers to the congregation . The cause of his mistake being known , and many believing that his excess of choler argu'd a weakness in his cause , Doctor Bramhall late Primat of Ireland , Writ a Treatise in vindication of the English Clergys caracter , which is the book so much applauded by the Prelaticks , and by Doctor Heylin , as vnanswerable ; wheras it was sudainly and so substantially answered , that Primat Bramhall never durst reply , notwithstanding the general concern of his Clergy , and his own particular engagement ; and the Church of England perceiving the evidence of our arguments against the validity of their forms of ordination , thought their best answer was to confess the force of our reasons , and correct the errors of their Bishops , by changing the forms they had composed of Priesthood and Episcopacy : and by in serting into those forms , words that might beare the signification of the caracters which their Predecessours had excluded from or omitted in the ordination of Protestant Ministers , as superfluous , and superstitious . This manner of answering is of great satisfaction to Catholicks , but how safe it is for the Protestant layty to rely vpon the validity of a Ministery that now after 100. years confess the insufficiency of their own forms of ordination , and by consequence of their Priesthood , Episcopacy , and Sacraments , we leave to their consideration , and pass to speak a word of Calvin the chief Author of the Presbiterian sect , and faction . John Calvin ( whom the Magistrat of Noyon condemned for infamous Sodomy ) was by his freind Beza canonized for extraordinary Sanctity ; but Sclusselburg a man of so great esteem among Protestants that he was made Superintendent and general Inspector of many Churches in Germany , after relating Calvin's Sodomy and vices , saith ; I know Beza writ otherwise of Calvin's life , manners , and death ; but seing him-self noted with the same Heresy , and almost with the same sin as the history of Candida &c. witnesseth , none can credit him . Therfore I am induced to believe Bolseck the Phisitian of Geneva , who begins his book of the life and death of Calvin with this protestation . I am heer , for the love of the truth to refute Theodor Beza his fals , and shamless lyes in the praise of Calvin , protesting before God and all the holy Court of heaven , before all the world , and the Holy Ghost it self , that neither anger nor envy , nor evill will hath made me speake or write any one thing against the truth and my conscience . Then he relates how Calvin was branded for Sodomy with a burning iron on the shoulder , and therfore retired from his Country ( Noyon in Picardy ) and how this punishment was testified by that Citty vnder the hand of a publick and sworn Notary to Mons. r Bertelier Secretary to the Councell of Geneva , which testimony ( sayth Bolseck ) is yet extant . Then he describeth Calvin's delicat dyet , how his wine was choyce , and carried with him in a silver pot , when he dined abroad ; that also special bread was made for Calvin only , and the same made of fine flower , wet in rosewater , mingl'd with sugar , Synamond , Aniz-seeds , besides a singular kind of bisket ; and this he affirmeth as a matter known to all Geneva : This delicasy of dyet was not prescribed to preserve his health , but prepared to foment his lust and lewd conversation with a Gentleman of Lausann's wife , and others ; his ambition was so great , that he aym'd at being Lord of Geneva , approving of their notorious rebellion and deposition of their lawfull Prince from his temporal right and jurisdiction . His death is described by the aforsaid Schlusselburg ( lib. 2. fol. 72. ) in these words . God in the rod of his fury visiting Calvin did horibly punish him before the fearfull houre of his death ; for he so stroke this Heretick ( so he term'd him in regard of his doctrin concerning the Sacrament and of God being the Author of sin ) with his mighty hand , that being in despaire , and calling vpon the Devil , he gave vp his wicked soule swearing , cursing , and blaspheming ; he dyed of the disease of lyce and worms ( a kind of death wher with God often striketh the wiked as Antiochus , Herod &c. ) increasing in a most lothsom vlcer about his privy parts , so as none present could endure the stench . His Miracle ( for he never attempted to work more then one , or two ) is recorded not only by Bolseck , but also by Ninguerda Lindanus , Copus , and others , and it was thus . Calvin pretending extraordinary vocation , thought necessary , for the confirmation therof , and his own credit , to cheat the world with a feign'd miracle ; to that purpose he agreed with a poore man caled Bruleus to feign him-self dead , promising him great rewards if in this Trage-comedy he would be secret , and act his part hansomly ; non knew of the plot but Bruleus , and his wife , who vpon the day and howr appointed , sart in her house lamenting her husband's death ; Calvin passing by with a great number of his freinds [ as it were by chance ] and hearing the lamentations of the poore woman , seemed to pitty her sad condition , and moved , forsooth , with charity and compassion , fell down vpon his knees with the rest of the company ; praying in a loud voice ; and beg'd of God that for the manifestation of his glory , and confirmation of his servant Calzin's doctrin and mission , he would vouchsafe to revive the dead Carcass , which he took by the hand , and bid him rise in the name of the Lord. The wife seing her husband did not move nor rise , as he had promised , drew neer , and perceiving he who had bin well but half an houre before , was now dead , lamented in good earnest the loss of her husband , reviled Calvin as a Murtherer , Cheat , Hypocrit , Heretick &c. and related to the whole company what had past between them ; Calvin seing Bruleus had acted his part more naturaly then he wished , retired with hast and confusion to his lodging . I leave it to the judgment of any disinteress'd person whether Bolseck and other grave Authors , would report such remarkable lyes ( as Calvinists will pretend , this and other passages of Calvin's life and death to be ) and set down in print so many circumstances , in a time wherin they were so notably disprovable . This kind of miracles , as Tertulian sayth , is proper to men who teach new doctrin contrary to that of the Apostles ; as their doctrin is contrary , so ought their miracles to be ; the Apostles raysed men from death by miracles , their Antagonists by miracle make men dead . Jsti ( Apostoli ) de mortuis suscitabant , ipsi de vivis mortuos faciunt . Tertulian . in lib. de preter . Beza ( an other Protestant Saint ) was in love with a boy and a girle at the same time ; in his amourous and lascivious Epigram's printed at Paris 1548. he called the boy Andebertus , the girle Candida , in these Epigram's is express'd his passion for both , and his perplexity in the choice of on before the other . At last he resolves , to preferr the boy before the girle , and if his Candida should complain , to content her with a kiss : his words are . Preferre tamen alterum necesse est , O duram nimium necessitatem ! sed postquam tamen alterum necesse est , Priores tibi defer● Andeberte , Quod si Candida forte conqueratur , Quid tum ? basiolo ●acebit vno . I will not trouble the Reader with relating the known vices of other Protestant sectaries ; these three are the chief , all other Sects being but branches of theirs . If any English Protestant will pretend that the Church of England is neither Lutheran Zuinglian nor Calvinist , let him fix vpon his Reformers ; Jf he rejects Henry 8. Cranmer , Ridley , Bucer Martyr , Ochin , Latimer , &c. And will needs have the whole Parliament which authorised them in Edward 6. reign to reform Religion , or the Parliament of Queen Elizabeth that received the English extinct Protestancy , to have the honor of being Authors , or Reformers , let him be pleased to read the Cronicles of this Nation , and compare the integrity of them that pretended to reform Popery , and revive Protestancy , with as many more Members of precedent English Parliaments , and he wil find there was never found in this Kingdom , or in any other , such a number of men , or a Parliament that deserved less credit in matters of Religion , then they , who admitted and setled Protestancy . He may observe how in King Henry 8. days ( to humor his lewdness and couetousness ) they cryed down the Pope , and flattered a temporal Soveraign with a spiritual Supremacy , and yet persecuted as heresies all other points of the Protestant Reformation . In Edward 6. days he may see how the same men ( to comply with Seamors folly and Dudleys ambition ) declared the doctrin which them-selves had profess'd as Catholick in King Henry 8. reign , to be notorious heresy . In Queen Maries time he may read in the statuts , and in this Treatise ( 1. part . sect . 6. ) how they recanted and condemned them-selves , and censured the King's Supremacy ( togeather with all points of Protestancy ) as heresy ; and with in six years after see them pass the same censure against the Roman Catholick doctrin , to which they had bin so solemnly reconciled again ; and revive the Supremacy togeather with other points of Protestancy . So that in the space of less then 16. years they changed their Religion , by publick Acts of Parliament , five of six tyms , to humor the factions which then prevailed . Wherfore it cannot be denyed but that these Parliaments and persons deserve as little credit in matters of Religion , as Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin , or any other privat sectary . SECT VII . Protestants mistaken in the application of the Prophecies of Scripture , concerning the conversion of the Kings , and Nations of the Gentils from Paganism to Christianity , foretould as an infallible marke of the true Church , and wherof the Protestant is deprived . SAint Augustin saith : [a] Obscurius dixerunt Proph●tae de Christo , quam de Ecclesia ; puto propterea quod videbant in Spiritu contra Ecclesiam homines facturos esse particulares , & de Christo non tantam litem habituros , de Ecclesia magnas contentiones excitaturos , ideo illud vnde majores lites futurae erant , planiùs praedictum est . The Prophets did speak more cleerly of the true Church then of Christ him-self , and giveth this reason , because they did forsee in spirit that there would arise greater doubts , and heresies against the Church then against our Saviour ; Therfore to stop the mouths of hereticks it was fit that God should describe the Church in Scripture by so remarkable and obvious signes , that neither ignorance nor obstinacy might be excusable by pretending want of knowledg of the truth , or means of repairing to that Guide of faith wherby the illiterat ought to be instructed , and the learned directed in all doubts , and controversies of Christian Religion . Amongst all the marks of God's Church mentioned in Scripture , not any is more discernable and less subject to mistakes , then the conversion of Kings and Nations from Paganism to Christianity ; Miracles may admit of disputes whether they be true or false ? But the conversion of Nations from Paganism to Christian Religion , cannot be counterfeited , nor concealed . If therfore the Protestant Congregations never converted any Kings or Nations of the Gentils to the Christian faith , not any nor all of them can be the true Church of God. For The Prophet Esay foretelleth of the true Church , tha● all [b] Nations shall flow to it . And concerning the Gentills coming to the Church in abundance , Thou [c] shalt see and shine , they heart shall be astonished and enlarged , because the multitude of the Sea shall be converted to thee , the Iles [d] shall waite for thee , their [e] Kings shall minister to thee , and thy gates shall be continually open , neither day nor night shall they be shut , that men may bring to thee the riches of the Gentills . And that their Kings may bee brought , thou [f] shalt suck the milk of the Gentills , and the brest of Kings . Kings [g] shall be thy nursing Fathers , and Queens thy Mothers . I will [h] give thee the earth for thy inheritance , and the end of the earth for thy possession . Thou must prophesy again vnto Nations , Peoples , Tongues , and many Kings : Apocal. 20.11 . All [i] Protestants as well as Catholicks apply these prophecies to the conversion of the Gentills . In like manner do [k] Protestants and Catholicks agree , that these prophecies of God have bin accomplish'd ; but not in the first 300. years , because as Barlow saith ( in his defence of the Articles of the Protestant Religion pag. 34. ( Jn the primitive Nonage of the Church , the promise of Kings alleigance thervnto was not so fully accomplish'd , because in those day 's that prophecy of our Saviour was rather verefied , you shall be brought before Kings for my nam 's sake , by them to be persecuted even to death . From the time of Constantin the Great vntill the time of Gregory the great , or Boniface the third , Bishops of Rome ( which was 200. and od years ) few Kings professed the Christian faith , the Emperours of the East and West only excepted ; and even of those , some revolted , as Julian the Apostat , and sundry others were Arians , as Constans , Constantius , Valens &c. And in case any illiterat Protestant should pretend that the Religion profess'd by Constantin , and propagated in those 200. and do years was not the Roman Catholick , but the Protestant , we remit him to his own learned Writers , and to Eusebius de vita Constantine , and particularly to the Centurists in their fowrth Century dedicated to Queen Elizabeth , in which they vndertake to deliver to her Majesty the state of the Church which in Constantin's time illustrated the whole world , and yet do charge the Fathers and Doctors of that and th' ensuing ages with the Popish doctrines of [l] Iustification , and merit by works ; (m) Confession of sins to a Priest , (n) Invocation of Saints , (o) Purgatory , the real (p) presence and Transubstantiation , worshiping (q) of the Sacrament confirmed by miracles , offering (r) it in Sacrifice to God , as being propitiatory for the living and dead , with (s) solemn translating of Saints Reliques , and their [ t ] worship , with (v) pilgrimage to them , with (x) Images in the Churches , with numbring prayers vpon litle stones or beades , worshiping (z) of the Cross , and by it's vertue driving (1) away Devills , single life (2) of Priests , the Bishop of Rome his Supremacy (3) Iure Divino , &c. So that in those 200. and od years ▪ Protestants cannot pretend that any Kings or Nations were converted to their Religion . (y) Therfore they desire the decision of this controversy concerning the Conversion 〈◊〉 Pagan Kings and nations to Christianity , may be reduced 〈◊〉 these last thousand and od years , from St. Gregory the great his time to ours which point being open matter of fact ▪ and so cleerly mentioned in all Histories , and confess'd by Protestants , to have bin don by Roman Catholicks , and to the ●oman Catholick Religion , no demonstration can be more convincing then this is , against the Protestant Church and Reform●●●●● . In so much that Whitaker ( lib. de Eccles. contra Belarm . pag. 336. ) hath nothing to say to this our objection of all the converted Kings and Nations since Gregory the great to this present , to have bin performed by Papists , and to Popery , but , I answer that those conversions of so many nations after the time 〈…〉 , mentioned by Belarmin , were not pure , but corrupt . The like answer and no other ▪ is given by Danaeus , Symon de V●yon , and others . But Mr. Barlow in his defence of the articles &c. pag. 35. saith , The promise by Esay prophecied ( 〈◊〉 the Church ) was accomplished , and the number so increased , though still invisibly that as her love sayd in the Canticles , there 〈◊〉 therefore Queen &c. so that there were threscore invisible Queens , Princes , or Kingdoms converted to Protestancy ; and that performed by Protestants as invisible as they . What greater evidence can there be of heretical obstinacy , then to maintain the real existence of an impossibility , by it's invisibility ? what is more impossible then that so remarkable things as the conversion of great princes and Nations from Idolatry to the outward profession of Christianity , could be invisible or conceal'd ? I must confess though Mr. Barlow's answer be very absurd , yet is it very consequent to the principles of Protestancy ; for why should not threescore Queens , Kings , and Kingdoms be invisible , as well as the whole Protestant Church wherof they were but a part ? And if all the Christian world could be insensibly and invisibly changed from pure and primitive Protestancy to superstitious Popery , why might not the same world , Kings , and Queens be invisibly and insensibly changed from Paganism to Protestancy ? We Catholicks are not forc't to admit of such absurdities ; our grea●est Adversaries name the Kings and Nations by us converted to Christianity . Any Protestant may see the particulars confess'd and alledg'd by Iohn Pappus ( in his Epitom . histor . Eccl. cap. de conversionibus Gentium pag. 89.91.92.93.94.100.106.107 . &c. ) also the Century Writers of Magdeburg mention the conversion of sundry nations wrought by vs since Gregory the first , as Germany ( centur . 8. c. 2. col . 20. ) of the Wandals ( centur . 9. c. 2. col . 15. ) of the Bulgarians , Sclavonians , Polonians , the Danes and Moravians ( cent . 9. c. 2. col . 18. ) And of sundry Kings and Kingdoms ( cent . 10. c. 2. col . 18. & 19. ) And of a great part of Hungary ( cent . 11. c. 2. col . 27. ) And of the Norwegians ( cent . 12. ) See the Protestant Writer Osiander ( in his Epitom . histor . Eccles. centur . 9.10.11.12.13.14 . & 15. ) mentioning the conversion of many Nations performed by Roman Catholiks , as of the Danes , the Moravians , the Polonians , the Sclavonians , the Bulgars , the Hunns , the Normans , the Bohemians , the Suecians , and Norwegians , Livonians , and the Saxons , The Ungarians , the Rugij , and Thuscans , of Candia , Majorca , of Tunes in Africa &c. wherunto may be added not only the like known conversion of our Ancestors the English Saxons , Scots , and Jrish in more ancient times , but in this last age of many Kings and Kingdoms in the East and West-Jndies , Africa , Iapon , and China , confessed by our Adversary Symon Lythus ( in respons . altera ad alteram Gretseri Apologiam pag. 931. ) where he says : The Jesuists &c. in the space of few years not content with the limits of Europe , have filled Azia , Afrik , and America , with their Idols : And Philippus Nicolai who writing of the accomplishment of the prophecies concerning the conversion of the Gentils ( as he professeth in his Preface to the Duke of Saxony pag. 12. ) is inforced wholy to insist and rely vpon our Popish Preachers , and Iesuists in all parts of the world . See lib. 1. c. 1. pag. 2. & 3. & lib. 1. pag. 15. & pag. 52. There is not any history profane , or sacred , ancient , or modern , which mentioneth as much as one King or Kingdom converted from Paganism to Protestancy ; vnless they will pretend that their histories , and Records are as invisible as their Church had bin before Luther and their Registers of Lambeth before Mason , I cannot say that all Protestants wanted ●●ale to attempt such conversions ; but the●● zeale wanted success in all their attempts , and that proves the prophecies of Scripture pointed not at their Church or Doctrin . Calvin sent some Ministers , and amongst them Richerus ( whom Beza termeth a man of tryed godliness and learning ) into Gallia Antartica to convert the heathens there ; and he writ to Calvin a letter ( extant in Calvin's epist. & respons . pag 438. his words are . Latet eos an ▪ Deus 〈◊〉 , tantum abest ut legem ejus observent , vel potentiam & bonitat●m ejus mirentur , ut prorsus sit nobis adempta spes lucrifaciend●● eos Christo , quod ut omnium est gravissimum ita inter caetera maximè aegre feremus . He saith more over that nothing could be don untill the children which Mr. Villegaignon delivered to the Barbarians to learn their language , had bin perfect therin ; but while the children were learning the heathens tongue , Richerus , Villagaignon and the other Ministers disagreed so in their doctrin , that the whole design fell to the ground ; and Villagaignon insteed of conventing the heathens , forsook his own Religion , moved thervnto by the dissentions , and inordinat accomplished lusts ( not to be named ) of the Protestant Preachers , wherof see Launoy 〈◊〉 la Republicque Christi●ne &c. l. 2. c. 16. fol. 281. and Villegaignon adversus articulos Richeri l. 1. c. 90. Franciscus Gomarus a Protestant Writer ackowledgeth the like want of success in other places , and persons : se his Speculum verae Ecclesiae pag. 161. & 168. And Mr. Hacluits book of voyages and discoveries of the English Nation , and their frustrated labours in conversion of the remote northen Nations ; wherof the Author saith ( pag. 680. ) The events do shew that either God's cause hath not bin chiefly preferred by them , or ells God hath not permitted so abundant grace as the light of his word , and knowledg of him , to be yet revealed to those Infidells before the apointed time . No mervaile therfore if [4] Beza despairing of any success in the Protestant Church of converting Pagans , disclaymeth therin , and doth advise his brethren to leave that labour to the Jesuists , and so employ them-selves at home among Christians , thinking perhaps that to make Papists Protestants is a sufficient accomplishing of Esay's prophecies . Nec enim nunc magnopere nobis de legatione ad remotissimas aliquas . Gentes laborandum , cum nobis domi , & in propinquo satis suporque sit quod nos & posteros nostros exerceat : Has igitur potius tam 〈◊〉 pe●grinationes locustis illis JESU nomen ementientibus , relinquamus . But as the converting of Gentills to Christianity is an infallible mark of the true Church , so is the drawing of Catholicks to Protestancy , an infallible mark of a false Church , and of Hereticks , whose endeavor , saith Tertullian [5] Is not to convert Pagans , but to pervert Christians . Negotium est illis ( Haereticis ) non Ethnicos convertendi sed nostros evertendi . Their success in that particular is no argument , that God approves of their Religion , but is only a sign of our human frailty , and perverse inclinations to vice and liberty . And they who say that the Protestant Reformation needs no other miracle to prove that it is Divine , but it's propagations , mistake and misapply the argument ; the miracle consists not in that many embra●● Protestancy , but rather in that any at all reject or forsake a Religion so favorable to sensuality of li●● , and singularity of judgment . Is it not an argument and a miracle of God's special and super-natural grace ; that any one temporal Catholick Soveraign reject so absolut and advantagious a jurisdiction over these Subjects , as the spiritual supremacy ? That Bishops preferr the Catholick subordination to the Pope before the Protestant equality ? That Catholick Priests contemn the conveniences , and co●●●nt which Protestant Ministers find in a married life 〈◊〉 ●hat the Catholick layt● , change not their wives or husbands according to the principles and practises 〈◊〉 Protes●●●cy ▪ and not only contradict their senses in the 〈…〉 ▪ Transubstantiation , but dis-own the Protestant pretended right of every privat person to judg ( according to his own sense of 〈…〉 all controversies of Christian Religion ? A Reformation so indulgent and obliging to every man and woman of what ●●ate and condition soever , could as litle want Proselies as the 〈◊〉 neither is the multitude of believers more a miracle 〈…〉 P●●●estant , then in the Mahometan , or any other popular 〈◊〉 pleasing Religion . SECT . VIII . Protestants mistaken in the consistency of their justifying faith with justice , or civil Government . Demonstrated in the new setlement of Irland , and in the persecution against Catholicks in England : and yet the King and his government vindicated from the note of Tyrany , or the breach of publick faith ; because his Ministers are compell'd , by a necessity of state , to run with the spirit and principles of Protestancy : Notwithstanding all which the Irish , and English Roman Catholicks are bound in conscience not to attempt the recovery of their right or Religion by arms , but rather to submit them-selves to his Majesty , and suffer their crosses with Christian patience . All Protestants agree in the doctrin of Iustification by only faith , but seem to differ in that of good works . And though all necessity of good works be in very deed excluded by the pretended sufficiency and efficacy of the Protestant justifying faith ; for in what need can a man stand of good works , if he be sure of his justification ( and by consequence of his salvation ) by only faith . But the scandal of the world at their dispensing with the observation of the ten Commandments as things not required by Christians , and cleerly inferred from their Iustification by only faith , was so general , that they disguised ( but never disown'd ) the doctrin ; and do yet stick to their principle though they dare not openly allow the consequences . They speak so sparingly in favour of good and gracious works , that no one Protestant Church will attribute to them any merit , congruity , or influence vpon either justification , or salvation . In so much that our Prelaticks ( who are more mod●●at then any other Protestants in this particular ) will not grant that good works are commanded by God as if they were depending of our liberty , or relating to our endeavors , but only are commanded as vnavoydable effects flowing necessarily from a Protestant and justifying faith , as heat from fire , or fruit from the tree . The Prelatick Church of England in the 11. Article of it's Religion , saith : We are accounted righteous before God , only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ by faith , and not for our own works or deservings . Wherfore that we are justified by faith only , is a most wholsom doctrin , and very full of comfort . And in the 12. Article declares All beit that good works which are the fruits of faith , and follow after justification , can not put away our sins , and endure the severity of God's Judgment , yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ , and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively faith ; in so much that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit . This explanation concerning the necessity of good works , mak● men as carless of them , as if they had bin impossible , or not at all requisit ; Because we are not solicitous of what we are sure of ; he who is well clad , and sits by a good fire , fears not to be starv'd with could , neither doth he think it necessary to vse any other exercise , or diligence for keeping him-self warm . If therfore good works do spring out as necessarily of a true and lively faith , as heat from fire , or fruit from the tree , any Protestant that supposeth , him-self hath that faith , needs not be solicitous of good works ; they will spring as a necessary consequent from his faith . But because experience doth shew that the Protestant who pretends to a justifying faith , hath not always good works , and many who are not Protestants , exercise moral virtues , it is further declared by the Church of England in the 13. Article ( for the comfort of Protestants , and confusion of Papists ) That even the best moral works and virtues when they spring not of faith in JESUS Christ , are no way pleasing to God , but rather have the nature of sin ; Hence it is , our English as well as other Protestants hould expressly with Luther , That good [a] works take their goodness of the worker , and that no work is disallowed of God , vnless the Author be dis-allowed before ; that sin is not hurtfull to him that actually believeth ; and therfore when the faithfull do sin , they [b] diminish not the glory of God , all the danger of sin being the evell example to our neighbour ; That David when he [c] committed adultery , was and remained the Child of God ; that sin is [d] pardoned as soon as committed ▪ the believing Protestant having received forgivness of all his sins past and to come . And that [e] there is no work better then other : to make water , to wash dishes , to be a Sower , or an Apostle , all is one to please God. That he who [f] doth once truly believe , cannot afterwards fall from the grace of God , or loose his faith by any sins ; and therfore faith is either [g] perpetual , or no faith . What a wide gap is opened by this wicked doctrin to all kind of vice , libertinism , and rebellion , is more visible in it self , then considered by well meaning Protestants , who may tax the most dissolut of their brethren with being evill Christistians , but must withall confess them to be good Protestants , as not violating the principles of their Religion , by which they are encouraged to justify the most wicked actions , by their sole belief in Christ , without any regard to the morality of good works , or to the alleigance and obedience due to Majesty or Magistrasy . That which makes most men carefull in God's service , is the vncertainty of their saluation , and feare of his displeasure by their dayly sins ; but Protestants are rid of all those perplexities and troubles by their assurance of being justified and saved by only faith , which makes adulteries , Murthers , rebellions &c. either no sins at all in them , or so venial that they are no sooner committed then pardoned , by a more plenary Jndulgence and Jubilee , then ever the Pope pretended to have power to grant , and without obligation of any satisfaction , almes , fasting , or prayer for past offences , or any purpose of future amendment , that purpose being rendred not only superfluous by their faith , but ridiculous by their doctrin , either of the impossibility of keeping God's Commandments , or by their Tenet of the necessary springing of good works from faith . And because this their Evangelical liberty , and indemnity is not consistent with the words of St. Peter 2. Pet. 1. Brethren labour the more that by good works you may make sure your vocation , They either make that Epistle apocryphall , or leave out of the Text in their Translations those two words , good works . It is commonly sayd that though many stats-men be Atheists , yet they will never permit Atheism to be made the legal Religion of the state , because they know that men who do not believe there is a God , or providence , cannot be kept in awe of the government , or brought to observe any other laws but their own appetits , seing they neither feare punishment nor expect rewad in an other life for vice or virtue , and without this feare and hopes , the multitude cannot be govern'd in this world . The same reason concludeth that Protestant Politians ought not to make Protestancy the Religion of the state , civil government being rendred as difficult and contemptible by an indulgent and over-confident belief , as by non at all ; He who persuads himself that faith alone is sufficient assurance of his saluation , and that such a faith once possess'd , can not be lost , will not avoyd the occasion , or resist the temptation of finning for his pleasure or profit ; nor omit the oportunity of rebelling whensoever it is offered with probability of success : so he be cautious in his vices and villanies , his justifying saith makes all his designs and devices conscientious ; and if he can save him-self from being hang'd , his Protestant belief will secure him from being damn'd , or droun'd in Hell. How impossible it is to govern a multitude where this is the Religion not only permitted but promoted , is evident by our late distempers . Could Tanners , Tinkers , Taylors , Coblers , and Bruers , domineer , and possess peacebly these tree Kingdoms , and murther our lawfull and innocent King by a formality of Religion , laws , and justice , had not their wicked practises bin countenanced by the Protestant principles , and look't vpon as a restauration of Protestancy vnto it's primitive purity ? It is credibly reported of their Ring-leader and Regicide Cromwell , that he dyed without remors of conscience , or signs of repentance for his monstruous villanies , because ( sayd he to his Protestant Divine that assisted him in his last sickness ) I am sure to be saved , seing I had once justifying faith , and could never loose it . Every resolut Rogue may attempt the most horrid crimes with hopes of prevailing amongst men whose principles are so presuming vpon mercy , and so applyable to mis-chief . I know it will be answered by them in whom education hath created zeale for the protestant religion , or interest hath rendred obstinat in maintaining the same , that the principles and articles of protestancy are mistaken , and misapplyed not only by vs Catholiks , but even by those protestant Authors last quoted in the margents . To which we reply . 1. That nothing is more preiudiciall to the soule , and good government , then a religion subiect to so many mistakes , and so generally , and plausibly mistaken by it's own greatest Doctors . 2. We say that our being mistaken , is but their privat opinion which opinion though it were back't by a publick Act of their Church can pretend ( at most , ) but to probability ; and so much they must also grant to our contrary censure , and Judgment of their justifying faith : and seing that of two probable opinions the generality of men follow that which favors most their particular inclinations , and interests , very few protestants will vary from the most favorable explanation , of iustifying faith , or will wave the comfort that the 11. Article of the Church of England affords to them in that particular , calling or canonising it a most wholsom doctrin , and very full of comfort . K. James was a wise , and fore-seing Prince , and in the conference at Hampton-Court did countenance the Dean of Pauls , and the Bishop of London disputing against Doctor Reynolds and others , that maintained the assurance of salvation ( or predestination ) by the protestant justifying faith ; and yet not withstanding the King's dislike ( noless politik then religious ) of a principle so damnable to the soule , and dangerous to the state , it would not be condemned , nor censured , unless the 39. Articles of religion , and the whole frame of English protestancy were overthrown , as Doctor Reynolds made appeare ; And indeed Mr. Perkins doth demonstrat ( in his reformed Catholick ( pag. 39. ) the necessary connexion and continuance of the assurance of salvation with the protestant doctrin of justifying faith , in these words . If vpon every aboad in sin the party be again vncertain of his salvation , then was the former certainty no certainty at all . For ( his sin notwithstanding ) he yet remembreth his former supposed certainty , and therfore if he was once truly assured , he can not during every his aboad in sin forget , how that he was so assured , which his only remembrance therof suffiseth to continue , and preserve his former supposed certainty even during his aboad in sin . So that if Cromwel by his justifying faith was once sure of his salvation , or predestination , Protestants must believe he could never loose that assurance , and must grant that he went to heaven without any punishment ( even in Purgatory ) for his murthers , periury , hypocrysy , adulteries &c. Such a belief must needs raise other Cromwells ; for who will not venture his life for a Crown , by the most vnjust means , when he is sure to be cron'd in God's glory , though , he miss of his ayme in this world , and perish in the attempt ? As it cannot be denyed but that these , and the like dangerous consequences do naturally flow from this principle of Protestancy , so we must acknowledg and admire the extraordinary skill and constancy of them ▪ who sit at the helme , and steer the ship of this great Common-wealth so stedily in so turbulent a sea , and stormy weather , against the most violent currents of perverse inclinations and principles : long may they continue their prosperous course ; but surely them-selves do apprehend that at long running , no human industry will be able to escape the rocks and shelves wher vpon this great ship must be driven , If our Pilots , and Parliaments will be overruled by the loud and rude outcrys of the Scumme of the people , against Toleration , or liberty of conscience ; and will think it sound policy to condescend to their zeale , and raise protestancy to the height of it's principles , in particular to the purity of their justifying faith ▪ which is of so great virtue , that it hath made Regicides and Rebells Saints in England , and Lords in Ireland ; working in that miserable Kingdom stranger miracles , then are read of , in the Ghospel . It hath changed the very essence or nature of things , and defined Innocency and nocency by such new notions , that Adam before his fall ( had he bin an Irish Catholik ) would have bin declared nocent ; wheras every Protestant , however so guilty of rebellion and murther , is a Child of grace , and favour : no sin or crime must be imputed to him , his justifying faith saves and salves all ▪ It hath turn'd a Convention of Cromwell's officers into a Cavaleer House of Commons : And though it hath not remov'd mountains , yet it hath ●●mov'd the 〈◊〉 nobility and gentry that had bin active in the King's service , unto mountains ; and deprived most of them ( since the King's restauration ) of that smale pittance which had bin allowed to them by Cromwell , in Conaght . It hath made the rebellious and the Royal interest , on and the same thing , because forsoo●h , both are called an English and Protestant interests ; and for as much as Oliver and Henry Cromwell were English Protestants , it 's declared to be the King's interest that not only Cromwell's Officers , but that him-self , his son , and their Trusties and Assignes , ought to possess and enjoy Irish Cavaleers estates . In England also this justifying faith hath wrought wonders ; for though it hath not restored no one the ●ares he lost , and loft on the Pillory for his sedition , yet hath it restored him to such credit , that his word against Protestant Bishops and Catholik Cavaleers , is like to be made the vote of the House of Commons : and an other Presbiterian that formerly headed the table of London against the King , hath kindled such a fire in ●arliament that can hardly be quenched without the bloud of Innocents . And truly I should admire that such a Cavaleer Parliament as this is , doth not punish Presbiterian Persecutors as french Pensioners ( for that by their persecution slow in a Treaty of Confederacy with England , seing non can have greater security of performance of articles then was given to the then Confederats of Irland , which signified nothing but a breach of the publick faith . We shall not presume to discourse further of this subject then our Alleigance and affection lead vs to vindicat the Government . How it agreeth with the Rules of Policy to make Ireland Protestant , many Protestants dispute , most resolve that Irish Popery would be a surer support to our King's soveraignity in Irland then English and Scotsh Presbitery , or a forc't and feign'd conversion of Cromwell's Creatures to Prelacy and Monarchy . The great Earle of Strafford's opinion was , that it is the King of England's Interest , to make Irland a counterpoyse against all rebellious attempts of his Protestant subjects ; and to that 〈◊〉 that the Irish ought to be countenanc'd even in their Religion , it's principles being so favorable to Monarchy , and irreconciliable to Presbitery ; and by consequence therby all combinations and Covenants between Scotsh and English Sectaries may be prevented or suppressed , and the King without any charge or care ( only by ●ot persecuting Papists for their conscience ) may secure the Irish to him-self ; who if treated like other Subjects , would never think of domestick conspiracies , or seek foreign protections . And as for England , we hope it shal never feele again the effects of Presbiterian policy , and piety , nor be govern'd by another long Parliament ; yet he who best vnderstands the affaires and constitution of the Kingdoms , thinks it part of his trust and duty , to bid the Royalists be vigilant in their stations , and charges , not only for preventing and suppressing plots and insurrections , but much more to beware of Godly Parliaments composed of the purer sort of Protestants ; such as her tofore by reforming and reducing Protestancy to it's primitive purity , and coherency with it's fundamental principles , have in these Kingdoms destroyed both Monarchy , and morality . It seems ( by the caution of this great Minister ) these men and Jacobus Andreas ad cap. 21. Lucae . And Luther him-self acknowledg the world groweth dayly worse , men are now more revengfull , covetous , licentious then they were ever before in the Papacy : And before , when we were seduced by the Pope , every man did willingly follow good works and now every man neither saith , nor knoweth any thing but how to get all to him-self by exactions , pillage , theft , lying , usury &c. And in his Colloq . Mensal . Germ. fol. 55. It is a wonderfull thing and full of scandal , that from the time in which the true doctrin of the Ghospel was first recalled to light , the world should dayly grow wors . Mr. Stubbes in his motives to good works , printend an . 1596. in his epistle to the Lord Major of London , saith , that after his travaile in compassing all England round about , I found the people in most parts dissolut , proud , envious malisious covetous , ambitious , carless of good works &c. Mr. Richard Jeffery in his Sermon at Paul's Cross 7. October printed 1604. pag. 31. saith . I may freely speak what J have plainly seen in the cours of some travailes , and observation of some courses , that in Flanders was never more drunkness , in Italy more wantoness , in Iury more hypocricy , in Turky more impiety , in Tartary more iniquity , then is practised generally in England , particularly in London ; all this is seen in on of the worst ages wherin these Roman Catholick Religion was professed , see our Adversaries the Centurists Cent. 7. c. 7. col . 181. who say : Although in this age the worship of God was darkn'd with man's traditions , and superstisions , yet the study to serve God and to live Godly and justly , was not wanting to the miserable common people &c. They were so attentive to their prayers as they bestowed almost the whole day there in &c. They did exhibit to the Magistrat due obedience , they were most studious of amity , concord , and Society , so as they would easily remit injuries , all of them were carefull to spend their time in honest vacation , and labour , to the poore and strangers they were most courteous , and liberal , and in their judgments and contracts most true . And Bucer in his Scripta Anglicana pag. 24. saith The greatest part of the Reformed Ghospelers seemed to look after nothing by the Ghospel , but to be rid of that yoke of disciplin which was remaining in the Papacy , and to do all things according , to the lust of their flesh : It was not then vnpleasing to them to heare that we are Iustified by faith in Christ , not by good works , which they in no wise did affect . We Catholicks do not pretend to have no evill-livers in our Church ; but this we may say with truth , and ( I hope ) without offence , that the difference between Protestant and Catholick ●●●ll-livers is , that when Protestants sin , they do nothing but what they are encouraged vnto by their justifying faith , and the other principles of their Religion ; but when Catholicks sin , they go against the known Tenets of their faith and profession . Even our Pardons , and Jndulgences , how-ever so plenary , are so far from encouraging vs to a continuance or relapse of sinning , that they involue as a precedent and necessary condition , a serious and sincere repentance of our former offences , and afirm purpose and resolution of never returning to the like crimes ; and after all is don , we pretend to no such vndoubted certainty of being pardon'd either by confession or Indulgences ( because we are not certain whether we do al as we ought ) as Protestants presume to have of their justification and saluation by only faith . The nature of this justifying faith ▪ and of other Protestant principles considered ▪ We Catholicks have reason to thanck God ▪ that the prudence ●f the Prince , and moderation of his Ministers is so extraordinary , that it keeps the indiscreed zeal of a multitude so strangly principl'd , if not as much with in the limits of Christianity , and civility towards their fellow subjects , as were to be wished , yet so that the execution of the sanguinary and penal statuts is not altogeather so distructive , as the Presbiterians and others endeavor . Untill the generality of these Nations reflect vpon the impiety of the first Reformers , and vpon their own mistakes in preferring the mad fancies of a few dissolute Friars ( concerning the nature of Christian faith ) before the constant Testimony and doctrin of the whole visible Church , we cannot expect that they who govern so mistaken a multitude , can make justice the rule of the publick Decrees , which depend of the concurrence and acceptance of men , whose greatest care is to promote Protestancy and persecute Popery . SECT . IX . Protestants mistaken in the consistency of Christian faith , humility , Charity , peace either in Church or state , with their making Scripture as interpreted by privat persons , or fallible Synods , or fancied general Councells ( composed of all discenting Christian Churches ) the rule of faith , and Iudg of Controversies in Religion . How every Protestant is a Pope ; and how much also they are overseen in making the 39. Articles or the oath of Supremacy a distinctive sign of Loyalty to our Protestant Kings . LVther , Zuinglius , Calvin , Cranmer and all others that pretended to reform the doctrin of the Church of Rome , seing they could not prove their new Religions , or Reformations by testimonies from antiquity , or by probability of Reason , were inforc't to imitat the example of all Heretiks , who ( as S. Austin says l. 1. de Trin. c. 3. ) endeavour to defend their falls and deceitfull opinions out of the Scriptures . If on shall ask any Heretick ( saith that ancient Father Vincentius lyr : l. 1. cons. Haer. c. 35. ) from whence , do you prove , from whence do you teach , that I ought to forsake the vniuersal and ancient faith of the Catholik Church ? Presently he answereth , scriptum est , It is written ; and forthwith he prepareth a thousand testimonies , a thousand examples , a thousand authorities , from the law , from the Apostles , from the Prophets . This shift is so ordinary and notorious , that Luther him-self ( postill . Wittemberg . in 2. con . 8. Dom. post Trin. fol. 118. Dom. post Trin. fol. 118. ) affirmeth , the sacred Scripture is the book of Heretiks , because Heretiks are accustomed to appeale to that book , neither did there arise at any time any heresy so pestiferous , and so foolish , which did not endeavor to hide it self under the vaile , of Scripture . And yet Luther , Calvin , Cranmer &c. finding nothing to say for them-selves , either in History , or Fathers : and seing Tradition so cleerly bent against them , that they could not name as much as on Parish or person which ever professed their protestant doctrines , they appeal'd from the word of God ( proposed by the visible and Catholick Church and Coun●●ls ) to their own Canon and Translations of Scripture ; and from that sense of Scripture which the Church and Councells had follow'd for 1500. years , to that which their own privat spirit , temporal interest , or fallacious reason di●●●ted to them-selves ; and so did others that followed their examples , making every privat Protestant , or at least every refor●●d Congregation Judg of Scripture , Church , Councells , and Fathers ; In so much that Luther ( tom . 2. Wittemberg . cap. de Sacram. fol. 375. setteth down this rule for all Protestants to be directed 〈◊〉 ▪ The Governors of Churches and Pastors of Christ's sheep 〈◊〉 indeed power to teach , but the sheep must judge wh●●●er they propose the voice of Christ , 〈◊〉 of strangers &c. Wherfore let Popes , Bishops , Councells , &c. decree , order , enact what they please , we shal not hinder , but we who are Christ's sheep and heare his voice , will judge whether they propose things true and agreable to the voice of our Pastor ; and they must yeeld to us , and subscribe and obey our sentence , and censure . Calvin , though contrary to Luth●● in many other things , yet in this doth agree , as being the ground wherupon all protestant Reformations must rely ; in his lib. 4. Institut . cap. 9. § . 8. he says , The definitions of Councels must be examined by Scripture , and Scripture interpreted by his rules and Spirit . The same is maintained by the Church of England as appears in the defence of the 39. Articles printed by authority 1633. wherin it is sayd pag. 103. Authority is given to the Church , and to every member of sound judgment in the same , to judg controversies of faith &c. And this is not the privat opinion of our Church , but also the judgment of our godly brethren in foreign Nations . And by Mr. Bilson Bishop of Winchester ( in his true difference &c. part . 2. pag. 353. ) The people must be Discerners , and Judges of that which is taught . How inconsistent this doctrin is with Christian faith , is evident by the pretended fallibility and fall of the visible Church which all Protestants do suppose , and must maintain , to make good the necessity and lawfullness of their own interpretations , and Reformations . For if the Roman Catholik , and ever Visible Church may , and from time to time hath erred ( as the Church of England declares in the 39. Articles ) no reformed Congregations , whether Lutheran , Presbiterian , or Prelatick can have infallible certainty but that them-selves have fallen into as great errors , as those which they have pretended to reform in the Roman Church : And if they have not infallible certainty of the truth of their reformed doctrin , they can not pretend to Christianity of faith , that involves an assurance of truth ▪ which assurance is impossible , if that the Church can be mistaken in it's proposall . So that Christianity of faith , including as an essential requisit the vndoubted assurance of the truth of what is proposed by the Church ▪ as revealed by God , and Protestancy necessarily supposing fallibility , or possibility of error in that same Church and proposal ; Christian faith is ther by rendred impossible , and the Protestant Doctrin demonstrated 〈◊〉 be inconsistent with the nature of Catholick Religion , with the certainty of Divine faith , and with the Authority of Christ's Church . Neither is the Protestant doctrin in this particular less consistent with Christian charity , and humility , then with Catholick faith . For , what judgment can be more rash , injurious , and contrary to Christian charity , then to assert , that so many holy and learned Doctors as have bin , and are confessed Papists ( and even the whole visible Church for the space at least of 1000. years ) could either ignorantly mistake , or would wilfully forsake the true sence of God's word , so cleerly shining in Scripture as every petty Protestant doth pretend ? or what is more repugnant 〈◊〉 Christian modesty and humility , then that homely Doctors , and half witted wits should preferr their own privat opinions in matters of faith , before the common consent and belief of 〈◊〉 Fathers of the Church , the Definitions of general Councels , the Tradition and testimony of so many ages ? Jt is both a ridiculous and sad spectacle to see , how every student of the University that hath learn'● to conster 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 , or to quibble or scribble some-what in Greek , English or Latin , takes vpon him to talk of Religion , and to censure St. 〈◊〉 , St. Austin , St. Christom &c. and contemn both ancient and modern Catholick Avthors , preferring before the whole Church , him-self , and his Po●antick Tutors , or Fellows ▪ of Oxford , and Cambrige Coll●g●s . Nay the illiterat people , even the women are grown to that height of spiritual pride ( an infallible 〈◊〉 of Heresy ) that they pitty our Popish ignorance , and fancy they can 〈◊〉 ▪ with the Text of their English Bibles ( falsly translated , and fondly interpreted ) the greatest Roman Divines . So true is the saying of St. Hierom ( in Epist. ad Paulinum ) Scripture is the only art which all people teach before they have learn't . The pratling woman , the old doting man &c. And therfore ( advers . Lucifer . ) bids men not flatter them-selves with quoting Scripture to confirm their opinions , seing the Devill him-self made vse of God's word ; which consists more in the sense then in the letter . How impossible is it to govern peaceably so pratling and presuming a Protestant multitude either in Church or state , is too manifest by the last experiences in England , wher the endeavours of reducing this Protestant arrogancy to some kind of reason , was the occasion , and object of the Rebellion . King Charles I. and his Councel for attempting to make the inferiors subordinat to their superiors , in doctrin and disciplin , and the subjects obedient to the laws of the land , were aspers'd as Papists , and destroy'd as enemies to the Evangelical liberty of Protestancy , and as subverters of the fundamental principles of the Reformation . Popish rebellions happen because the Promotors therof fall from that fervor of their faith , and devotion which they ought to practise ; but the English Protestant Rebellion was raised and continued by the most devout , pure , fervent , and zealous sort of Protestants , in persuance and maintenance of their Religion . Other rebellions are commonly vnexpected chances , springing from a sudain fury or feare of desperat people , but the late Rebellion was , and is to this day , pretended by many to have bin a pious , and sober proceeding ( the King's murther only excepted ) of the prudent and Religious men of the Nation , assembl'd in Parliament ; and is so justifiable by the principles of Protestancy , that he must be thought not only a wise but a fortunat King of England that can prevent or suppress the like revolution in his Reign , so long as Protestancy doth reign with him . The reason is as manifest as the experience , and the cause as the effect . For , if a Common-wealth were so instituted that every privat person might pretend ( by his birth-right or Privilege ) to admit of no other Iudg or Interpreter of the laws , but him-self , or at least might lawfully and legaly appeale from all Courts of Judicature ( even from the highest which is the Parliament ) to his own privat Judgment , what intollerable confusion would it breed ? what justice , subordination , peace , propriety , or prosperity , could be expected in such a government ? The same laws and authority which ought to decide all differences , would be the subject and occasion of perpetual quarrells . This is the condition and constitution of Protestant Churches and States . Every privat person is a supreme Iudg of Religion , and sole Interpreter of Scripture ; he may appeale both from Soveraigns ; and Bishops ; from their temporal and Ecclesiastical laws to his own privat judgment , or spirit ; and him-self must determin the difference and conclude whether the Decrees of Church and State be agreable to God's word that is , to his own Interpretation therof , which commonly is byassed by privat interest , or some singular fancy of his own . And though the Governors and Clergy of his Church and Country tell him , he ought to suspend his judgment , and submit the same to 〈◊〉 Parliament , or to a general Councel , not like that of Trent , but to one composed of all Nations and Christian Congregations , called by the joynt author●●y of all temporal Princes ( but in the mean time he must 〈◊〉 to the Decrees of the Church and state , wherof he is a member ) when they inculcat this lesson vnto a zealous Protestant● 〈…〉 not so simple as to believe that they who read this 〈◊〉 , speak as they think or that they believe any such general Councel is possible ; for that every 〈◊〉 knows , temporal Princes will never agree about the President , time , place , and other circumstances of such a Counce●● and though they should , ( and the Turck and other Infidels give way to such a s●spitious Assembly of Christians ) yet when they m●t● , nothing could be resolu'd ●or want of their agrement in a 〈◊〉 of judging of controversies ; every sect ●●icking to it 's own principles and proper sence of Scripture . So tha● every Protestant vnderstands the design of this doctrin to be but a fetch of their own Clergy , to make it-self in the mean time sol● Judg of Religion , contrary to the principles and privileges of Protestancy , and therfore laugh at the folly of such a proposal , and pretext . We Roman Catholicks need no such Devices , nor delays : we are content to submit to such general Councels , as may be had ; our Popes and Councels define according to the tradition and sense of Scripture of the true Church ; our Censures must suppose known causes , and crimes ; and if with all these cautions the Pop's spiritual jurisdiction is thought to be so dangerous to the soveraignty of Kings , and peace of subjects ( least forsooth , it might be indirectly applyed to temporal matters ) that all Protestants vpon that score renounce the Papal authority ; with how much more reason ought every one to renounce his own judicature of Religion and Scripture tyed to no rules , but to his own discretion , and to an indiscernable and privat spirit . There is greater danger that Protestants may abuse this spiritual Soveraignty , by an indirect application therof to temporal affaires , then the Pope his ; who being a stranger , and at such a distance , can not ( if he would ) have the conveniencies , oportunities , and occasions of plotting rebellion , which Natives and subjects may lay hold on , with less danger of a discovery , and greater hopes of success . It is sayd that in time of a Parliament wherin many of the lower House stood vpon higher termes then was thought convenient for the state , though warranted by the purest Protestancy , a Gentleman presented a petition to King James , who seemed to admire that any would sue to him , in a time ther were ( as his Majesty said ) three hundred Kings sitting in the House of Commons , and therfore bid the Gentleman repaire thither for relief . We see in the late long Parliament how some few membres of the House of Commons prevail'd against K. Charles I. in his own Court and Citty , by making them-selves popular , vpon the score of the Protestant Religion , and Scripture . How afterwards these and their faction were supplanted by Cromwell's sense of Scripture , and how that he wanted only the name of King. How after his death every Commander had hopes to succeed him in this power and Protectorship , and without question some might , had not the Duke of Albermal● bin so honest . We have grounds therfore to say that every Protestant that hath wit , and valor , and will take hould of the advantages of his Religion , may hope to be a King , or Protector ; and we cannot but admire that any states-man doth except against the Roman Catholick Tenets , for admitting of one Pope , wheras according to the ground and principles of all Protestant Reformations , there are as many Popes as Pro●●stants , and every one of them much more absolute then the Bishops of Rome , and their supremacy less consistent whith the security of Princes , and peace of the people , then his spiritual jurisdiction . Besids ; the stay and security of a state consists in a discreet distribution of publick charges and employments ; and this , in the choyce of persons qualified with such signs of conscience , and loyalty , as can hardly be counterfeited , or misapplied ; wherof the principal is the profession of the Religion of the state ; therfore we see non trusted in weighty affaires of the Common-wealth , but such as are of the Prince his Religion . But if that Religion have no certain rule , or only such a rule that maks men of no certain Religion , it can be no more a sign of conscience and loyalty , or fit to direct ●he King and Councell in their choyce of persons for their purpose and ●ust , then a plume of feathers , or a garniture of ribands fancied for it's colours . The reason is obvious and concluding ▪ because the security of a King , and the prosperity of his Kingdoms , is grounded vpon the loyalty of his subjects , and servants , who are intrusted with secret designs , and publick employments , both in the civill and military list ; their loyalty is directed by their conscience ; their conscience by their Religion ; their Religion by their rule of faith : If therfore their rule of faith be but their own fancy of Scripture , or Scripture as it is interpreted by every man's privat judgment , without any obligation of conscience to submit to the contrary interpretation of their national Syn●● or Church ( because neither of them pretend to be infallible ) then loyalty , conscience , religion , government , and King , are as subject to the changes of fortune , and animosities of faction , as the fickle fancy of every privat person is apt to vary according to his weackness of Iudgment , or strength of passion , and to declare for that party which will be most for his interest . This inconstancy of the reformed Religions is acknowledged by them-selves . Duditius a learned and zealous protestant , quoted and highly commended by Beza for his piety and elegant witt ( ep . 1. ad Andraeam Duditium pag. 13. ) lamenteth the condition of his reformed Brethren , in these words . They are carryed about with every wind of doctrin , now to this part , now to that ; whose Religion what it is to day you may perhaps know , but what it will be to morrow , neither you nor they can certainly tell . & pag. 5. ep . Bezae cit . In what head of Religion do they agree that impugn the Roman Bishop ? If you examin all from the head to the foot you shal almost find nothing affirmed by on , which another will not averr to be wicked . And , their Divines do dayly differ from them-selves , Menstruam fidem habentes , coyning a monthly faith . " Now what smale hopes there are of remedying , this mis-fortune , Sands ingeniously confesseth in his relation ( fol. 82. ) ) The Papists have the Pope as a common Father , Adviser , and Conductor , to reconcile their jarrs , to decide their differences , to draw their Religion by consent of Councels vnto vnity &c. wheras on the contrary side Protestants are as severed or rather scattered troups , each drawing adiverse way , without any means to pacify their quarrels : no Patriarch ; one or more , to have a common superintendance or care of their Churches for correspondency and vnity ; no ordinary way to assemble a generall Councel of their part , the only hope remaining ever to assuage their contention . To this we may add the saying of Melancton , as remarkable as true , Quos fugiamus habemus , sed quos sequamur non intelligimus , we know who we should avoyd ( meaning the Papists ) Religions is , to believe what you think fit according to your best vnderstanding of a writing you can not vnderstand by any human and privat industry of your own , and will not learn from any publik authority of the Church , because by following the interpretation of the Church you fancy that you may be mistaken ) so that for feare of being mistaken in , or by publick authority , the protestant either falls into obstinacy in his own privat opinion , or into an indifferency for all opinions , and so becoms to be an Heretick , or of no Religion . Among the protestant Confessions of faith , the 39. Articles of the prelatick Church of England is estem'd an excellent piece ; and yet the same Articles acknowledg that the visible Church of God hath erred , and may err from time to time ; and by consequence the prelatick may have erred in this very assertion , as in most of the 39. Articles . How this acknowledged vncertainty of truth can agree with the certainty or Christianity of faith , or with any hopes of salvation , I can not comprehend . But albeit these articles seem as insufficient for salvation , as men are vncertain of their truth , yet are they thought usefull to the government ; for , though they want the substance , ( that is , the certainty ) of faith , yet they have the face of religion , and formality of law ; because they talk of God , Christ , Trinity &c. And are confirmed by acts of Parliament . But that which makes them to be so much insisted vpon , is , that they are so indifferent , and appliable to all Protestant Religions , that with much reason he is censured a very wilfull Presbiterian , and fanatick , who will not submit , and subscribe to articles so indulgent , and indifferent . Therfore not only now but formerly in the beginning of all distempers grounded vpon Diversitie of Protestant opinions , it was thought good policy to commit the 39. Articles to the press , therby to please all dissenting parties ; and this hath bin practised not only in Queen Elizabeth , and King Iames Reigns , but also in King Charles I. an 1640. when the rebellion began to break forth , and was cloak't with the authority of a legall Parliament , as well as with the zeal of the Protestant Religion against the Church of England . And an . 1633. when the Symptoms of that rebellion were first discerned , there was printed , by special Command , a Book setting forth , the agreement of the 39. Articles with the doctrin of other reformed , but rebellious Churches of France , Germany , Netherlands , Basil , Bohemia , Swethland , Suitzerland &c. The Title of the book is , the Faith , Doctrin , and Religion , professed and protected in the realm of England and Dominions of the same , expressed in the Articles &c. The sayd Articles analized into propositions ; and the propositions proved to be agreable both to the writen word of God , and to the extant confessions of all the neighbour Churches Christianly reformed . Perused , and by the lawfull authority of the Church of England , allowed to be publick , London . printed by John Legatt . 1633. So that no mervaile if the 39. Articles have not proved to be a better antidot against Rebellion , then we have seen by experience , they being so agreable to the doctrin of Churches raised and maintained by rebellious people and principles against their vndoubted lawfull Soveraigns . The French Hugonot Ministers in their assembly at Bema 1572. decree that in every citty all should sweare not to lay down arms as long as they should see them persecute the doctrin of salvation &c. In the mean time to govern them-selves by their own protestants rules . See Sutcliff in his answer to a libel supplicatory . pag. 194. See the Catholick doctrin of the Church of England art . 19. pag. 94. agreeing here in with Confes. Helvet . 2. Saxon. art . 11. Wittemberg . art . 32. Sueu . art . 15. all quoted ibid. pag. 95. Dresterus the Protestant writer in part . 2. Nullenarii sexti pag. 661. acknowledgeth that all the warrs of Germany against the Emperour and lawfull Soveraigns happned ex mutatione Religionis Pontificiae in Lutheranam . See Crispinus of the Churches estate pag. 509. how the reformed Church of Basil was founded by the rebellion of some Burgesses against the Catholick Senators whom they ejected &c. The Rebellion of Holland and the other Protestant Provinces , is well known , as also of Geneva , Zuitzers , or Helvetians . See Chitreus in Cron. an . 1593. & 1594. pag. 74. & seq . How the King of Swethland being a Catholick , was by his Subjects the Lutherans forc't so content him-self with Mass in his in his privat Chapell , and to assent , that no Catholick should beare office in that Kingdom , and at length an other made King. We may say without either vanity or flattery , that were it possible to maintain the Soveraignty of a King , the peace and prosperity of a people togeather with the principles of Protestancy , the English Nation would have don it , wanting neither witt or judgment to find out the expedients after long experience ( of 100. years ) since the pulling down of Popery ; and yet we see that nothwithstanding the wisedom of them who govern , the learning of the Clergy , the worth of the gentry , the sincerity of the common sort , and the natural inclination to loyalty of the whole Nation , since Protestancy came among vs we have violated the laws of nature and Nations , we have by publick acts of State don many things , wherof but one perpetrated by a privat person ( whithout any countenance from the governement ) were sufficient to make not only him-self , but his whole family , and Country infamous ; Murthers of Soveraigns by a formality of justice , breach of publick faith for the Protestant interest , were never heard of in England , nor acted by English men vntil they were Protestants : Therfore the infamy , and reproach therof must be left at the doores of the English Protestant Church , without blaming our English Nation , or nature . It is the nature of an arbitrary Religion to pervert good natures ; It confounds the state more then any arbitrary government . The worst of arbitrary governments have some regard to the honour , and word of the Prince , and to the publick faith . An arbitrary religion dispenseth with all ▪ An arbitrary government is reduced to one supreme ; an arbitrary government doth pretend reason for the Prince his ComCommands , an arbitrary Religion by pretending to be above reason , commands against reason . How arbitrary and applicable all Protestant Religions are to every particular interest , and fancy , notwithstanding their publick professions and confessions of faith , is visible by the 39. Articles of the Church of England , that hitherto could neither setle the judgments of subjects in any on certain belief , nor tye them to their duty and alleigance to the lawfull Prince , though the sayd articles wanted no countenance of law to gain for them authority ; And yet the profession of the 39. Articles togeather with the oath of supremacy , is made the distinctive sign of truth and loyalty in our English Monarchy . But the Articles being applicable to contrary religions and interests , and an oath asserting a thin● so incredible as the spiritual supremacy of a lay Soveraign , must needs expose the government to continual dangers that flow from a plausible and popular tenderness of conscience , and from the contempt of so indifferent and improbable a Religion ; and therfore though many do abhorr , yet few do admire , our late King's mis-fortune , his Majesty having grounded his Soveraignty , and security vpon Councellors , servants , and souldiers ( of whose fidelity he had no other evidence but the profession of 39. Articles so vncertain , that they signified nothing , and dispensed with every thing ) and an oath of a jurisdiction so incredible , that they who took it either vnderstood not what they swore , or if they did ( by swearing a known vntruth ) disposed them-selves to violat all oaths of alleigance , and learn't in all other promises to preferr profit before performance , conveniency before conscience ▪ Were not this true , and were the prelatik Religion ( with all it's laws , and oath's ) capable of establishing Monarchs , or of making subjects loyal , and servants faithfull , how were it possible that so just and innocent a King as Charles 1. ( The ancientest by succession and inheritance of all Christendom ) should be so generally and vnworthyly betray'd by them that profess'd the 39. Articles , and took the oaths of supremacy and alleigance ? By the laws of the land it is enacted , ( and accordingly practised , ) that non be permitted to vote in Parliament , or trusted with any employment in the state , who professeth not the prelatick Protestant Religion , and swears not the Supremacy and Alleigance : And yet we see how litle this Religion and oaths wrought vpon the generality of these Kingdoms , or availed the late King. None that vnderstands the genius of the English Nation will believe , that by nature they are so base , and treacherous , as of late the world hath observed . Therfore what they have don amiss , so contrary to the generosity , and honesty of their dispositions , and to the rules of Christianity , must be attributed to their Religion . Wherfore it must be concluded , that any outward sign , though it be but a red scarf , or garniture of ribands of the King's colours , doth engage and confirm more the subjects and souldiers in their duty , and loyalty , then the 39. Prelatick Articles , and the oath of supremacy . A Rebell , or Roundhead , may , t' is true , weare the King's colours , but not with so great danger to his Majesty , or dommage to the publick , as when he professeth the King's Religion . Very few Englishmen will fly from the King's colours they once weare and profess to esteem , but many that profess the 39. Articles will fight against the Prelatick interpretation therof , for their own privat sense , and against that of the King and Church of England : So applicable are the 39. Articles to all dissenting Reformations , and so pliable to every Rebellion that is grounded vpon any pretence of Scripture . SECT . X. How the fundamental principles of the Protestant Reformations maturely examined , and strictly followed , have led the most learned Protestants of the world , to Iudaisme , Atheisme , Arianisme , Mahometanisme &c. and their best modern wits and writers to admit of no other Rule of Religion but Natural Reason ; and the Protestants Churches of Poland , Hungary , and Transilvania , to deny the Mystery of the Trinity . SEbastian Castalio , termed by Osiander ( in epitom . pag. 753. ) Vir apprimè doctus , linguarum peritissimus . Ranked by Doctor Humfrey ( In vita Ivelli pag. 265. ) with Luther and Zuinglius ; and placed by Pantaleon ( in Chronographia pag. 123. ) amongst the Fathers and lights of the Church ; this great and learned Protestant , having considered the Prophecies mentioned in Scripture , of the conversion of Kings and Nations by the Christian Church , and of it's happy state , splendor , and continuance , and compared all with the very foundation and first principle of protestancy , to wit , with the protestant supposition of a generall apostacy , and fall of the visible Church from the true faith , and their remaining in superstition and idolatry for so many centuries of years , together with the invisibility of the Protestant Church vntill Luther , and ( by consequence ) it 's not converting any visible Kings or nations from Paganisme to Christianity ; having I say , maturely considered these things , was so perplex'd , and doubtfull in point of God's providence and veracity , that he came at length to believe nothing , as may be seen in his Preface of the great latin Bible dedicated to K. Edward 6. where he saith : verily we must confess , eyther that these things shall be performed herafter , or have bin already , or that God is to be accused of lying : If any may answer that they have bin performed ; I will demand of him , when ? If he sayd in the Apostles time ; I will demand how it chanceth , that neither then the knowledg of God was altogether perfect , and after in so short space vanished away , which was promised to be eternall , and more abundant then the flouds of the sea ? And concludeth ; the more I peruse the Scriptures , the less do I find the same performed , howsoever you vnderstand the same prophecies . Martin Bucer one of the primitive and prime Protestants , And an Apostle of the English reformation , of whom Sir Iohn Cheek K. Edward 6. Master , says , the world scarce had his fellow , and whom Arch-bishop Whitgift ( in his defence &c. pag. 522. ) termeth a Reverend , learned , painfull , sound Father &c. this great Bucer after his first Apostasy from his Dominican order , and Catholik Religion , became a Lutheran ; afterwards a Zvinglian ; as appaereth in his epistle 〈◊〉 Norimb . & ad Ess●ingenses ; Then he returned again to be a Lutheran , as may be seen in the Acts of the Synod holden at Luther's house in Wittemberg . an . 1539. and in Bucer's own Comentaries vpon the 6. John. and 26. Mathew , where he asketh pardon of God and the Church , for that he deceived so many with the error of Zuinglius , and the Sacramentarians ; And notwithstanding this open repentance , he returned again to the same Zuinglianism in England , and therfore is reprehended by Schlusselburg ( in Theol. Calv. lib. 2. fol. 70. ) At length seeing the incertainty of Christianity wherunto by protestancy he had driven him-self , and others that stuck to it's principles , at the houre of his death he embraced Judaisme , as they who were present therat , testify , saith Prateolus ( pag. 107. ) He declared long before to Dudley Earle of Warwick , that he doubted whether all was true that the Evangelists relate of Christ. wherof see hertofore . part . 1. David George who for many years had bin a pious and publik Professor of Protestancy at Basil , and [a] called a man of God , for his notorious charity to the poore and sick , considering and comparing the aforesaid doctrin of protestancy with the prophecies of Scripture concerning the visible Church , became a blasphemous Apostata ; and affirming our Saviour to have bin a seducer , drew many Protestants to his opinion , convincing them by their own principles , and this argument . [b] Jf the doctrin of Christ and his Apostles had bin true and perfect , the Church which they planted should have continued , &c. But now it is manifest that Antichrist hath subverted the doctrin of the Apostles and the Church by them begun ; as is evident in the Papacy : therfore the doctrin of the Apostles was falls and imperfect . Bernardin Ochin one of them whose opinions were Oracles to the Composers of the 39. Articles of Religion , and the liturgy of the Church of England , so much celebrated for his learning and piety , that the Protector Seamor and Arch-bishop Cranmer called him out of Germany , to help them in their Protestant reformation ; termed by Bishop Bale a light of the Church , and England happy whilst it had him , miserable when it lost him , highly commended for learning and virtue by Simlerus , and Sleydan l. 9. fol. 297. and by Calvin l. de scandalis , &c. This Ochin whom as Calvin writ , all Italy could not match , this light whose presence made England happy , and whose absence made it miserable ; this very Ochin , considering well the principles of protestancy , became a Jew ; concluding that Christ never had a Church vpon earth . When I did ( saith he in praefat . Dialogorum ) consider how Christ by his power , wisdom , and goodness had founded and established his Church , washed it with his bloud , and enriched it with his spirit ; and again discerned how the same was ( funditus eversa ) vtterly over thrown , I could not but wonder , and being desirous to know the cause , J found there had bin Popes . And proceeding from this conceipt of the Popes prevailing against Christ in vtter overthrow of the whole visible Church , he concludeth that he who founded and purchased the Church with such pains , and at so deere a rate , could not be Christ , because he wanted power or providence to preserve it , and therfore Ochin tourned Iew and taught circumsion and Polygamy . Upon the same motives [c] Adam Neuserus a most learned Protestant , and chief Pastor of Heydelbergh , turned Turk , and was circumsised at Constantinople , persuading many of his flock to become Mahometans . [d] Allemanus esteemed , and beloved by Beza for his learning , seing that the predictions of the Prophets were not fulfilled in the Protestant Churches , and being resolved not to be a Papist , held that the Messias was not come , and so renouncing Christianity became a blasphemous Iew. Calvin , the Oracle of Protestant learning , and the most plausible Reformer of Popery , is not only by Catholicks but by sundry Protestants charged with Judaism , in so much that the famous Protestant Writer Egidius Hunnius Doctor and publick Professor in the University of Wittembergh , and chief Disputant in the conference of Ratisbone against the Catholicks , writ a Book intituled Calvinus Judaizans : And another Protestant book was printed 1586 ▪ and reprinted 1592. the Author wherof is the learned Ioannes Modestinus , and it's Title , A Demonstration out of God's word , that the Calvinists are not Christians , but only baptized Jews and Mahometans : and an other very learned Protestant John Scutz ( in lib. 50. causarum cap. 48. ) affirmeth , Mahometism , Arianism , and Calvinism , to be brothers and Sisters , and three pair of hose made of one cloath . The Calvinists do , and may say the same of the Lutherans , and of every other Sect of Protestants ; they are all made of one cloath , and differ only in the fashion , according to the diversity of their fancies . They all agree in cloathing and covering their errors with Scripture , but some like one mode , some an other . Calvin and his faction seem to approve most of the Arian , to which also most Protestants incline , by reason of difficulty they find in the Mystery of the Trinity , explained after the Catholick manner ; But non of them will tye himself to an others fashion , seing their Rule of faith is their own fancy . Wherfore notwithstanding the Confessions of faith of their sundry Churches , they do not hold them-selves obliged to Profess that , or any faith longer then it agreeth with every on 's privat sense of Scripture , which he changes as often as further study , information , or seeming reason moves him to the contrary . So that not only Mahometism , Arianism , and Calvinism , are three paire of hose made of one Cloath , according to Scutz expression , but his Lutheranism , and all other Protestant Reformations are remnants of the same piece , with different trimmings and patches ; and though they be hose this day , to morrow they would perhaps be Turbants , or Jews garments , had not those formes and fashions bin so generally cry'd down , as ridiculous in these parts of the world , that the learned Protestants , who think them more Religious then their own , despaire of ever making them the mode . So true it is , that the bare letter of Scripture without Tradition ( the rule of faith ) makes men Hereticks , Turcks , Jews , and the worst of Infidells . The learned Protestants who are not Iews , Turks , or Arians , become Atheists , or meer Rationalists ; Because there is not any thing moves learned men so much either to Atheism , or to have no Religion but naturall reason , as the diversity of Religions , and the confessed vncertainty of such as are professed . The interpretation of Scripture and Fathers being left by their principles of the Reformation to every particular person's discretion , maks Protestants differ as much in Christian belief as in human opinions , concerning any ordinary , and obscure matter ; and their supposition of the fall of the visible Church into errors of doctrin , togeather with the acknowledged fallibility , and vncertainty of their own Congregations , takes away ( as we proved in the last Section ) all certainty , and Christianity of belief . What doubt therfore can be made but that such learned Protestants as turn not Jews , Mahometans , or Arians , will either become Atheists , Socinians , or meer Rationalists ? such as observe that the Prophecies sett-down in Scripture concerning the spendor , extent , and propagation of Christ's Church vpon Earth , are not accomplished in their own petty Reformations , and withall are so peevish , and maliciously bent against the Roman Catholick faith , as not to examin it's truth , turn Jews , Mahometans , or Atheists ; But such as are ashamed or afraid to renounce the name of Christians , and yet are as obstinat against the Roman Catholick doctrin , as the aforsaid Protestants , fall from on reformed sect to an other ; and at length perceiving there is no reason to preferr on before an other , renounce all , and rely only vpon their own reason ; most of them follow Chillingworth , Fauckland , Stilling-fleet , and become Socinians , denying or doubting of Christ's Divinity , and are driven to that impiety , partly by the incoherency of the Protestant Tenets , and partly by their contempt of Tradition ; but most of all by the foolish presumption of their own wit and judgment , and by that secret pride so manifest in Protestants , and proper to Hereticks . There is not any one Protestant Writer , in whose works you may not find this heretical Strain . Neither is it to be admired that men whose Religion is occasioned by pride , and grounded vpon singularity of judgment , do betray and declare those passions in their discourses , they being the chief ingredients of their Symbols and the Conclusions most cleerly deduced from their principles . I will omit all others at present , and only mention a passage of Socinus against Volanus ( pa. 2. ) wherin you may see to what a pass Protestants are brought by their own proud and privat spirit , and by their contempt of Catholick Tradition . Thus therfore he saith . To what purpose should I answer that which thou borrowest from the Papists &c. especially where thou opposest to vs the perpetuall consent of the Church ? very excellently doubtless in this behalf hath Hosius ( a Papist ) discours'd against you , wounding you with your own sword . And therfore you are no less fals in urging against us , the Churches perpetual consent ( for the Divinity of Christ ) then are the Papists in their vrging therof against you and vs. And ibid. pag. 222. We propose to vs in this question ( concerning the Divinity of Christ ) non for Master or Interpreter , but only the holy Ghost &c. we do not think that we are to stand to the judgment of any men though never so learned , of any Councels though in shew never so holy , and lawfully assembled , of any visible Church , though never so perfect and vniversall . Even Uolanus himself disputing against the Iesuits , is inforced to reject the examples , sayings , and deeds , of Athanasius , Hierom , Austin , Theodoret , and other Fathers , whose authority he now opposeth against vs , as sacred . Thus much have I thought good to remember , that Volanus may receive answer from himself , when he so often inforceth against vs the authority of learned men , and the consent of the Church , &c. And truly Socinus doth defend his error concerning Christ , with as many and as cleer texts of Scripture ( not vnderstood in the sense of the Roman Catholick Church ) as any point of Protestancy is maintained by other Protestants . The Puritans ( now called Presbiterians ) vse the same way of arguing against the Prelatiks , and with no less success , then socinus against Volanus , as may be seen in Cartwright in his second reply against episcopacy ( p. 1. pag. 484. ) And that it may appear ( saith he ) how justly we call this Canon of the Councell ( the first generall of Nice , in the Canon touching the Metropolitan which the Prelatiks vrged in favor of Episcopacy ) vnto the tuch stone of the word of God , let it be considered &c. In the same Councell appeareth that to those chosen of the ministery vnmarried , it was not lawfull to take any wife afterwards &c. Paphnutius sheweth , that not only this was before that Councell , but was an ancient Tradition of the Church , in which both him-felf and the whole Councell rested &c. If the ancient Tradition of the Church can not authorise this , neither can ancient custome authorise the other . The Prelatick Clergy would fain hould Episcopacy by virtue of Tradition , and of the authority of the Nicen Councell , and yet would have Priests marry , contrary to the same tradition , and authority . In like manner , as the same Mr. Cartwright well observeth ( ibid. pag. 582. ) the Bishops of the Church of England would needs have the Nicen Councell be of sufficient authority to maintain Arch-Bishops , but not the Pope , wheras the on is as cleerly expressed as the other , and no less necessary for the government of the Church . If ( saith he ) an Arch-Bishop be necessary for calling a Provincial Councell , when the Bishops are divided ; it is necessary there be also a Pope , which may call a generall Councell when division is among the Arch-Bishops ; for when the Churches of one Province be divided from other ( as you ask me , so I ask you ) who shall assemble them togeather ? who shall admonish them of their duties , when they are assembled ? If you can find a way how this may be don without a Pope , the way is also found , wherby the Church is disburdned of the Archbishop . When Prelaticks dispute with Presbiterians about Episcopacy and ceremonies &c. they extoll the four first general Councells ; but when they dispute with Roman Catholicks , about the vnmarried life of Priests , the Pop's supremacy , or any other point of Popery , then they extenuate the authority of the same Councells , and will admitt of no other rule of faith but Scripture . So that a Prelatick Protestant against Presbiterians is a Papist , and against Papists is a Presbiterian : what he is , or would be if both did argue against him at the same time , is not well known to me ( nor as I suppose to him-self ; ) but if he admits of the two main pillars wherby protestancy is supported , which are the pretended fall and fallibility of the visible Church , and the arbitrary interpretation of Scripture , he may be any thing he pleases ; and ( to speak more modestly of him then Modestinus of Calvinists ) he is in a faire way to be a baptised Iew , Mahometan , or Arian , and can not miss that way , if he will be guided by the Protestant principles , and follow the track of the most learned of the reformation . Both Luther [a] and Calvin dislik't the word Trinity , on sayd it sounded couldly , the other barbarously ; and Luther by omitting in his Translation of the new Testament this Text of Scripture . There-be three which give witness in heaven , the Father , the word , and the holy Ghost , and these three be one , sheweth how little inclined he was to believe that sacred Mystery ; and by saying that his soule hated Homusion and that the Arians did very well (b) to reject that new and profane word from the rules of faith , he declareth how his Protestant rule and reformation doth direct men to heresy and to all kind of infidelity ; for , there is not a more refined heresy then Scripture mis-interpreted , and mis-applyed ; and Scripture may be as easily mis-interpreted and mis applyed against the Trinity , or the second Person 's equality , and consubstantiality , as applied to any on point of Protestancy . The Anti-Trinitarians of Poland , Transilvania and Hungary think themselves as good Calvinists as any French Hugonots , and better Protestants then English Prelaticks , or German Lutherans ; because they not only agree with all reformed Churches in the Fundamentalls of Protestancy ( that is , in supposing the Apostacy of the Catholick Church , and in reforming it by privat authority , and their own interpretation of Scripture ) but go a step further in the Reformation , by denying the Trinity . By the principles of Protestancy , and the practise of the first Protestant Reformers , it is left to the choyce and discretion of every particular Church and person , what articles of Popery are fitt to be rejected by their privat interpretation of Scripture : and indeed it is impossible for men not tyed to any rule but to their own fancies of Scripture , to agree in the points of Popery what to reject or retain . They who confine with the Turk's Dominions , venture to deny the Trinity , and the Divinity of Christ , and laugh at their brethrens arguments ( against their impiety ) as deduced only from Tradition , Councells , and Fathers and call them old Roman raggs long since torn in pieces ( by the Protestants them-selves ) in other points of Protestancy &c. Hi sunt vetusti panni quos vos laceratis in aliis fidei articulis &c. & lacerata jamdudum calceamenta . ( Nullus & Nemo H. 9. ) They are ( say they ) patcht showes worn out long agon , but heer in England , France &c. where no neighboring Nations deny the Trinity , or Incarnation , Protestants make those Misteries fundamental articles of faith ; but in Transilvania , and Hungary , The principles of Protestancy are not kept in such awe as heer , they make bold there to apply Scripture against any mysteries of Christianity . Wherfore we must not admire that they ( as Mr. Hooker tells vs Eccles. Pol●● . l. 4. pag. 183. ) Of the reformed Churches of Poland , think the very belief of the Trinity to be a part of Anti-Christian corruption , and that the Pop's triple Crown is a sensible mark wherby the world might know him to be that misticall Beast spoken of in the Revelation , in no respect so much as in his doctrin of the Trinity : Nor when they say that St. Athanasius his Symbol is the Symbol of Sathan ; and brag that Luther did scarce vntile the Babilonian Jower ( of Rome ) but that they do vtterly demolish it , and dig vp its very foundation . By which words they give cleerly to vnderstand , that the Protestants of Germany , England , Denmark &c. are but superficial Protestants and are as yet far short of that substantial , and fundamental Reformation whervnto the principles of Protestancy , and the Protestant rule of faith , or an arbitrary interpretation of Scripture , doth direct , and incline all Churches of the Reformation . As for our English Presbiterians and Fanaticks , they agree with the Polonian , Hungarian , and Transilvanian protestant Arrians , and Anti-Trinitarians , in believing the Protestant Reformations can not be pious , and perfect , so long as they retain any on point of Popery ; and indeed there is as much reason and ground in Scripture to reject all , as any on ; and the Protestant principles warant the deniall of the Trinity , and Incarnation , as well as of the Mass and Transubstantiation . The prelaticks perceive this to be true , and therfore in the 39. Articles ( to avoyd scandal and discredit ) profess the belief of many mysteries , that according to the very foundation of their Reformation they ought to deny ; and though they seem not to be guilty of impiety in their resolution of retaining some , yet are they convicted of incoherency in not rejecting all , as we shall now manifestly prove . SECT . XI . How the indifferency , or rather inclination , of Protestancy to all kind of infidelity , is further demonstrated by the Prelatick doctrin , and distinction of fundamental and not fundamental articles of faith . The design of their fundamental distinction layd open . The Roman Catholick , the sole Catholick Church ; and how it hath the authority of iudging all controversies of Religion . VNity of doctrin being a confessed mark of the true Church , which is called One in relation to one and the same faith ; and Protestants perceiving they want this vnity , and the means to bring them to it , ( every particular Church and person challenging a right to interpret Scripture after his own manner , as well as Luther and Calvin &c. who could not assume to them-selves that liberty without granting it to others ) and that not only their sundry Churches and confessions differ extreamly in doctrin , but even the members of one and the same Congregation agree not among them-selves in the explanation of their Articles , nor in the Authority of their Church , to command and determin , what articles ought to be believed ; this I say considered by Protestants , some of their chief writers ( and particularly the English Prelaticks ) have invented a distinction wherby they hope to foole their flocks , and make them believe , that there is not only an vnity , but an vniversality of faith amongst all dissenting Protestants , and by consequence that they are true Catholicks . They divide therfore the articles of Christian Religion into fundamentall , and not fundamentall . Fundamentall they call those , wherin all Christians do agree : not fundamentall they make every article wherof them-selves , or any other Christians doubt , how ever so fundamentall it may be held by the rest . By which doctrin they make Arians , N●●torians , and all ancient Hereticks , good Catholicks , and their errors not fundamentall , or destructive to salvation , because forsooth they are Christians , though deny the consubstantiality of Christ. This is no wrested consequence of ours , but their own confessed Tenet . The great prelatick writer Doctor Morton late Bishop of Duresme , in his approved and applauded book , of the Kingdom of Jsrael , and of the Church , dedicated to Queen Elizabeth ( pag. 94 ) sayth , The Churches of Arians are to be accounted the Church of God , because they do hould the foundation of the Ghospell which is faith in JESUS Christ the son of God and Saviour of the world . And pag. 91. He giveth this general rule . Whersoever a company of men do joyntly and publickly by worshipping the true God in Christ , profess the substance of Christian Religion , which is faith in JESUS Christ the Son of God , and Saviour of the world , ther is a true Church , notwithstanding any corruption what soever &c. Thus they plead for the Arrians declaring in their favour that consubstantiality of the son , or his being the natural son of God , is not the substance of Christian belief . A man would think that the real presence of Christ in the Sacrament , is a substantial point of faith , seing ther of dependeth the reality of our Sacrifice , the feeding or famishing of our soules , and the verifying or falsifying of Christ's plain and express words ; and yet Bishop Iewel the greatest piller of the Church of England , in his Apology for the same ( pag. 101. edit . 1600. ) ob●erving that Protestants were divided in the belief of that mystery , tells vs it is but a matter of indifferency ; The Lutherans and Zuinglians , saith he , are both sides Christians , good friends , and Brethren ; they vary not between them-selves vpon the principles and foundations of our Religions , &c. But vpon one only question ( the real presence ) neither weighty , nor great . Doctor Reynolds in his 5. Conclusion annexed to his conference ( pag 722. ) affirmeth the real presence to be but as it were the grudging of a litle ague , if otherwise the party hould the Christian faith . And all Protestants conspire in this heretical shift , because their change and choyce of articles of faith can not be maintained by any other way , but by denying that therby they touch the foundation of Christian Religion . So Luther defended his Consubstantiation , as may be seen in Amandus Polanus in his Synop. pag. 446. And Iacobus Acontius ( lib. 3. Stratagematum Sathanae pag. 135. ) saith : It 's evident concerning as well those who hould the real presence of Christ's Body in the bread , as those others which deny it , that although of necessity one part do err , yet both are in way of saluation , if in other things they be obedient to God. Jn this Protestant distinction we must distinguish two things . 1. The design . 2. The doctrin wherupon Protestants ground their design . In this Section J will discover the design , and declare the weakness therof . In the next I will demonstrat the falshood of the doctrin wherby they intended to carry on their design . Protestants proceed in this affair as weak Ministers of state ; when they find by experience they have bin mistaken in taking their measures , and in the management of publick concerns , they would fain be reconciled , and make strict leagues with such Potentats as formerly they had disobliged , and them-selves now stand in need of their friendship , and fancy they can effect all by inculcating vnto them general notions of a common danger , grounded vpon the power and pride of some neighbouring and emulous Prince . So Prelaticks reflecting vpon the weackness of their cause occasion'd through the dissentions of the Reformed Religions , and vpon the incoherency of their own 39. Articles with the foundation and liberty of Protestancy , would fain ( by a generall notion of Christianity ) vnite all heretical Churches to them-selves against the Roman Catholicks pretended pride and power . In which proceedings they commit two great indiscretions . 1. They do not consider how they have disobliged the Greek , and most of the Eastern Churches , by declaring in their 39. Articles the doctrin of the Holy Ghost's procession from the Father , and not from the son to be heresy ; though now ( too late ) they would fain moderat the censure , as also be reconciled to all Sects of Protestants in Europe . 2. At the same time they endeavour to make this league offensive and defensive against the Roman Catholick Church ; [a] their chief writers profess there is no cause to quarell with that Church , because it is also a Christian Congregation , and differs from Protestants only in things indifferent , among which they place even the Worship of Images , the Sacrifice of the Mass , the communion under one kind , the Pop's supremacy &c. Whe●ce it must needs follow that their Protestant separation from the Roman Church can not be justifyed , as confessedly not having sufficient ground to break the communion of the Church vpon the score of doctrin acknowledged by them-selves to be lawful , and therfore their Protestant Reformations must be concluded schismatical . This their Prelatick moderation towards our Roman Catholick doctrin is the effect of a necessary compliance with our Adversaries , condemned hereticks ; not of any Christian charity that they bear to our principles , or persons , as appeareth by their quite contrary expressions in other occasions , and by the severity of their statutes against Priests , and Papists . They can hardly excuse the errors of Arrians , Nestorians , &c. And yet accuse vs of heresy ; nor can they maintain the Greek worshipping of Images , to be lawfull , and yet condemn the same in vs as idolatry . But that which they most press against the Roman Catholick Church , and wherin all sectaries dissenting from it , are concerned to ioyn with Protestants , is , that we say , ourselves are the sole Catholicks , and the Pope and general Councels supreme Judges of hereticks . Rather then admit our Church to be the Catholick , they cantonize God's Church into dissenting congregations , and canonize for Orthodox all sects of hereticks , though they have no subordination , connexion , or communication among themselves , much less that care of the common good , that is among the Suitzers , whose Commonwealth they would fain make a patern of Christ's Church . To this end they sent their Agents to Ieremias Patriarch of Constantinople , and in their printed books make honorable mention of Nestorius , Dioscorus , Eutiches , and other hereticks brood , and branches , that are dispers'd in Egypt , Ethiopia , and East Jndies , as if they had bin their Brethren ( wheras they do not know their Tenets ) and brag of their numbers in comparison wherof they say the Romanists are but few , and , at the best , but a part of the vniversal Church ; and if a part , they ought not to judg of the whole , if they do , their sentence must be slighted as invalid and partiall . And though the Schismaticks , and Hereticks of the Greek Church whom the Protestants so much courted , have by a particular definitive sentence of I●●●mias their Patriarch , disown'd the doctrin , and refused the communion of all Protestants , yet are the so deserted and despised reformed Churches , compell'd to maintain the indifferency of the eastern heresies , even of those which the Greeks them-selves twelue times recanted ( having bin so many times reconciled to the Church of Rome ) though now again revolted , and returned to some of their former errors , but not without a visible marke of God's indignation and justice . Protestants therfore are content to excuse the errors of the Greeks , and of all other Christians , though Hereticks , hoping therby to obtain for them-selves the name of Catholiks ; and are so kind as not to exclude any that professeth Christ ( even after the Arrian manner ) from their Protestant communion ; not doubting but that for a return of civility , them-selves will by virtue of that general appellation of Christians , be countenanced by the enemies of the Church of Rome , and protected from it's severity . But the Greek Patriarch smelt their design ; and though a Rebell against the sea of Rome , yet he condemned the Protestant doctrin , and contemned their flattery ; giving them to vnderstand , that the truth of Religion is never annexed to many dissenting Churches , and that their agrement in Protestant fundamentalls can not be an argument of Catholick vnity or vniversality . And to be rid of future importunities , condemned their opinions as heresies , declaring how different they are from those of the Greek Church , as appeareth by his Sententia definitiva . Jeremiae Patriarchae Constantinopolotani sententia definititiva de doctrina & Religione Wittembergensium Theologorum , edit . an . 1586. in this Book , the Greeks detest the Protestant Religion , wherof see further Hospinian in Histor. Sacram. part . 2. and Responsio Basilii Magni Ducis Muscoviae &c. an . 1570. it appeareth by a Treatise set forth even by the Protestant Divines of Wittemberg intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium , & Ieremiae Patriarchae Constantinop . de Augustana Confessione &c. That the Greek Church yet to this day professeth and teacheth invocation of Saints and Angells ( pag. 55. 102.128 . ) Reliques , pag. 244. & 368. worshipping of Images ( pag. 243.244.247 . & 251. ) Transsubstantiation ( pag. 86.96.100.240.318 . ) Sacrifice ( pag. 102 104 ) The signifying ceremonies of the Mass ( pag. 97.99.100 . ) Auricular Confession . in praefat . & in lib. pag. 87 130. Confirmation with Chrisme ( pag. 78.238 . ) extreme Vnction ( pag. 242.326 . ) All the seaven Sacraments ( pag. 77.242 . ) prayer for the dead ( pag. 93.102.109 . ) Sacrifice for the dead ( pag. 95.104 . ) Monachisme ( pag. 132.257 . ) That Priests may not marry after orders taken , ( pag. 129. ) See Sir Edward Sands also in his relation &c. On the last leaf but five where he confirms all we have related here of the Greeks concurrence in Religion with the Roman Church . As for the Protestant Doctors and Prelats exceptions against the Roman Church and Councells not being Catholick or Universall , they can be of no force ; because their own Logicians may cleer the mistake ●y putting them in mind of the definition of Catholick or Universal , which is , vnum in multis , one in many ; for ●n●●●rsality requireth two , and but two conditions vnity , or ide●●ity of form , and multitude of Subjects . That a Church therfore be Universal or Catholick , it is necessary and sufficient there be an vnity or identity of form ( which is faith ) and multitude of subjects , which are the Professors of that faith . Whether the subject of the form which is called universall , be more or less ( so they be many ) is not material as to the nature and denomination of Universal , or Catholick , though there were but 200. men living , homo ( say Logicians ) would be as much Universal as now it is , with so many millions of men : In like man●er we say , though there were but 200. men in the world professing the true faith , that faith would be still Universal or Catholick , because it would be still one and the same in many ; and 200. are as properly many , though not so many , as 200. millions . We grant that it hath bin prophecied the multitude of believers should be very numerous , and spread over the whole world , and accordingly it hath bin fulfill'd , and now Roman Catholicks are every where multiplied ; yet there hath bin a time when the Catholicks were but few , and in the later days they will not be many in respect of Heretiks , but still it was and will be the Catholick Church . Therfore it can not be an argument that a Church in not Catholick or Universal , because ther ar more Pagans , and Professors of Heresies , then of the true Religion .. Their being more hereticks in number , is consistent with the being of many faithfull houlding the Apostolick faith , and no more is requisit for a Catholick or Universal Church . But sure Protestants forget the invisibility of their own , when they except against the Universality of ours . If theirs was Catholick or Universal when they were so few , that for the space at least of 1000. years not one Protestant could be found in the whole world , they have no reason to deny the denomination of Catholick to the Roman , which always hath bin so conspicuous and numerous . If they will proceed coherently , and say that for those 1000. years before Luther , ther was no Catholick Church , then they must not only reform , but alter and cut short the Apostles Creed , and blot out ( at least for those 1000. years ) that article , J believe in the Catholick Church . And as Protestants have no reason to believe that the vniversality or Catholicism of the Church consists not so much in the number of persons , as in the antiquity and identity of faith of the Professors with that of the Apostles , so have they not any reason to object partiality , and illegality against the testimony and judicature of the Roman Church and Councells when they censure Protestant opinions . Not partiality , because when a Iudg or wittness giveth sentence or evidence against his own natural inclination and interest , there can be no suspition of partiality , nor lawfull exception against his sentence or testimony , as too much favoring himself , or his relations ; And truly if Roman Catholicks did judge of controversies of faith according to their own natural inclination and interest , and had not in their definitions and testimonies a greater regard to conscience then conveniency , they would never witness or define that Priests ought not to marry , or that Kings and Bishops ought to be subject to the Pope in spirituall affaires , or that men ought to abstain from flesh so many days in the week , or that ther is no bread or wine in the Sacrament notwithstanding the appearance of both ; neither would they part with their lands and mony vpon the score of Purgatory ; or maintain that privat men or Churches must not take the liberty to themselves of deciding controversies of Religion , but on the contrary beleeve that generall Councells are infallible even when they define matters contrary to our sense and inclinations . Roman Catholicks are made of flesh and bloud , they are naturally as averse from these thoughts , and submissions , and find as great difficulty in conforming their judgments and testimonies thervnto as Protestants . Therfore they cannot be partial in condemning Protestants , for not believing these things , vnless they be also partial against themselves ; and nothing but the evidence of their own obligation ●o believe these things , strengthned by the grace of God , could prevaile with so many learned and sober men as have bin and are known to be among Roman Catholicks , to be partial against themselves , or to judg and wittness ( contrary to their own natural inclinations and temporal interest ) for Popery against Protestancy . SVBSECT II. Of the Iustice and legality of our Roman Censures against Protestancy . NOw as to the legality of the proceedings and censures of the Roman Catholick Church against Protestancy , it is as manifest as lawfull witnesses , and cleer evidences can make any judgment either in law or equity . In all controversie● both of law and Religion , the Courts and Church must ground their sentences vpon matter of fact . All disputes of faith must be reduced vnto , and decided by this matter of fact . Whether Christ our Saviour , and his Apostles taught such doctrin ? Whether he revealed the reformed , not the Roman sense of Scripture ? This being a thing don 1600. years since , neither party can produce new eyes or eare witnesses pretending to an immediat knowledg of what then Christ and his Apostles preach't . That immediat evidence ended with the begining of the second age , and we must begin our proof with this last , and proceed to examin our witnesses by a retrogradation from this present age to the first , because the only proof of things which are beyond the reach of our knowledg and memory , is the Tradition and testimonies of others , vpon which we must rely , or resolve not to believe any thing , even of our-selves , as our names , families , Countries , or of this world , and much less of the next . Let us begin therfore with the Reformed Protestant Churches , and ask them what witnesses have they in this 16. Century to prove that Christ and his Apostles were Protestants , or taught their reformed sense of Scripture ? They will answer , they have as many witnesses as ther are Protestants . We demand their cause of knowledge ? such of them as in matters of Religion make any use of reason , will not pretend that they know it by privat revelation , or by their own proper interpretation of God's Law , ( those are neither Court nor Church evidences ) but will answer that their Parents and Pastors tould them , Christ and his Apostles were Protestants and these were tould so by others their Parents and Pastors , vntill passing some few descents , they come to Luther , or Calvin , or Cranmer &c. There they must stop ; for , Luther , Calvin , and Cranmer did not pretend that their Parents or Pastors testifyed to them that Protestancy was the true Religion , them-selves having bin the first Inventors or Revivers therof , after that it had bin ( by their own confessions ) at least 1000. years buried , and their Church had bin invisible , or enchanted . Jt is a remarkable thing that never any ancient Heretick , or modern Reformer of the Catholick doctrin , could name an inmmedia● Pre●●cessor , much less any Church , from which he received his Religion ▪ and reformed interpretation of Scripture . Opti●●s that ancient Father ( ● . 2. contra ●arme● . ) says , That Donatus was a son without a Father a Successor without a Predecessor , filius sine Patre , sequens sine Anteceden●e : the same we may say of Luther , Calvin Cranmer &c. And seing ther must be a Succession of faith as well as of me● , and that as one who can not prove his Father or family to be noble by the testimonies and tradition of others , can not pretend to nobility of descent , or to right of inheritance , so can not Luther , Calvin or Cranmer and their followers , pretend to antiquity of faith , or to be of the Catholick family of Christ without a legal testimony and tradition of their spiritual descent , which tradition or testimony they confess to be wanting . Mr. Napper in his Treatise vpon the Revelations pag. 43. The Pop's Kingdome hath had power over all Christians , from the time of Pope Silvester and the Emperour Constantine for these 1260. years . And pag. ●4● . From the time of Constantine vntill these our days , even 1260. years , the Pope and his Clergy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians . And their chief Doctors ingeniously acknowledg , that their Churches were either so obscure , or so opprest , that notwithstanding their own serious examinati●● , and diligent search into all histories both sacred and profane , they can not find in the space of at least 1300. years as much as a record or Tradition of any on person to beare witness that their faith , sense of Scripture , or Reformation , was preach't by Christ and his Apostles . Sebastianus Francus in ep . de Abrog . Statutis ecclesiast . saith Statim post Apostolos &c. Presently after the Apostles times , all things were turne● vpside down &c. And that for certain through the work of Anti-christ , the externall Church togeather with the faith and the Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure , and that for these 1400. years the Church hath bin no wher externall and visible . Peter Martyr so much commended by Calvin , and sent for by Cranmer to help to frame the Religion of the Church of England , pag. 462. of his work de caelibatu & votis , saith ; as for the judgment of the Fathers , because our Adversaires ( the Papists ) both in this and other controversies are accustomed to appeale to them , J do not think it the part of a Christian to appeale from the Scriptures of God , to the judgments of men . And pag. 476. So long as we go no further then the Councells and Fathers , we shall always remain in the same errors . This Sophister would faine make Protestants believe that the question is , whether the Fathers sense of Scriptures ought to be preferred before the sense of the Protestants ? them-selves confess that both Councells and Fathers are contrary to their interpretation . Whitaker on of the learned'st Protestants that ever writ , answering Duraeus , and acknowledging the truth of the assertion , coms off with this poore evasion ( l. 7. pag. 478. Jt is sufficient for us to know , by conferring the Popish doctrin with Scripture , that they do not agree , let Histories say what they list . So litle do the Ecclesiastical Annals favour Protestancy , that never any point therof is mentioned without mentioning also how it began , and was comdemned as heresy . Now let Protestants examin our Roman Catholick witnesses ; we do not stop ( as they must ) at the last age 1500. we produce in every Century of years the most eminent persons for Sanctity and learning that then lived , who not only professed our faith living , but also dying , as by the Traditions of all Christendom , their own writings , and the confession of our Adversaries is manifest , wherof the Divines of Magdeburg , hertofore quoted , writ copiously in their Centuries . These Fathers and Doctors of the Church in each respective Century , delivered the Roman Catholick faith to the next succeeding , not as a privat opinion of their own , but as the publick , pure , primitive , Apostolick saith , which they had received as such from the precedent age , confirmed by the vnanimous testimony of their known Catholick immediat Predecessours . What exceptions or objections can Protestants pretend against the holy and learned Fathers , so impartial Iudges and witnesses ? They could not be ignorant of what was the publick and vniversal faith , or Church in their times ; and they were men of so great integrity , that they would not for any temporal interest conceale the truth in a matter , wherof depended eternity . They were not angry ( saith S. Augustin disputing against the Pelagians , advers . Julian . l. 2. prope finem & lib. 3. c. 17. & lib. 4. c. 12. ) neither at you or vs ; what they have found in the Church , that they have holden , they have taught what they have learn't , what they have received from their fore-fathers they have delivered to posterity . The most learned Protestants decline the Fathers judgment and testimony for no other reason but because they find them to be Roman Catholicks in their writings ; so that the question is not whether they by for vs , but whether their testimony for vs , averring that the Roman Catholick sense of Scripture is the same which Christ and his Apostles deliuered , ought to be preferred before the contrary testimony of Luther , Calvin , Cranmer , or of the other Convocations and Parliaments of England of Edward 6. and Queen Elizabeth , who prove not their reformed sense of Scripture by ancient tradition , but by a new arbitrary interpretation of Scripture . And in what Court of Judicature would such an vncertain guess , pass for a legal proof ? Wheras tradition is the only evidence wherby the greatest civil controversies even of regal successions and titles are decided in the Protestants Courts : Therfore it ought not to be excluded as superfluous or superstitious from the Church . SVBSET III. AS to their exception that the Roman Catholick Church is but a part , and ought not to be judge of all other Christians , we answer , that not by all Christians , but by on part , were all controversies in the Church decided since the Apostles times and the other part which did not submitt to the judgment of that one , in matters of faith and disciplin , were censured hereticks . That the Judgment and censures in all ages were issued but by on part , and this , the Roman Catholick party that lived in communion with the Bishop of Rome , and the Councells that acknowledged his jurisdiction , we prove by the confessed examples of every Century . In the first , the controversy of the legal ceremonies was determined by S. Peter and the Apostles in a Councell wherin S. Peter presided Act. 15. In the second Century the Christians were divided about celebrating E'aster , the controversy was decided by S. Victor Bishop of Rome , as S. Peter's successor ; and because the Churches of Asia would not conform themselves to his sentence , he excommunicated them . ( Euseb. l. 5. hist. c. 23. & 24. ) And though S. Irenaeus approved not of S. Victor's severity , yet he never questioned his jurisdiction or supremacy , or the legality of his censures . And because some Christians persisted obstinatly in not conforming to the Pop's Decree of celebrating Easter , they were for that obstinacy declared hereticks , and as such numbred in Catalogues by S. Epiphanius , haeres . 50. S. Augustin , haeres . 26. and by Tertullian de praescript . in fine , and called Quarto-decimans . In the third Century , by the Pope Cornelius and his Roman Councell the Novatian heresy was condemned ( Euseb. ex versione Rufini , lib. 6. histor . cap. 33. ) and though there were not as many Bishops in that Roman Councell , as at Trent , yet the whole Church thought the authority sufficient and legal to declare the Novatians hereticks . The same Pope and Stephen his Successour condemned such Christians as thought and taught that they who had bin baptised by hereticks , ought to be rebaptised . In the forth Century , the Arian heresy was condemned by the Councell of Nice , wherin were but 318. Bishops , whose testimony was thought sufficient , and legal against a far greater number of Arius his faction , because the Councell's testimony was confirmed by a Tradition , and by the authority of St. Silvester Bishop of Rome , whose legats presided in that Assembly· In the same Century was condemned the Heresy of Macedonius against the Holy Ghost , by a Councell in Constantinople confirmed by the authority of St. Damasus Bishop of Rome . Photius in lib. de septem Synodis . In the fifth Century was condemned the heresy of Nestorius in the Ephesin Councell , wherin presided Cyrillus in the name of Pope Celestin. ( Evagrius lib. 1. cap. 4. ) And a litle after was condemned the heresy of Eutiches in the Councell of Calcedon , wherin also presided the Legats of Pope Leo. ( Evagrius lib. 2. cap. 4. ) And the whole Councell petitioned to the Bishop of Rome for his confirmation of their Acts. ( tom . 2. Concil . & Breviarium Liberati ) In the same fifth age was condemned the heresy of the Pelagians , by authority of the Bishops of Rome . The Pelagian heresy ( saith St. Austin lib. 2. Retract . c. 50. ) with it's authors was convicted and condemned by the Roman Bishops Jnnocent , and Zozimus , with concurrence ( or at the instance ) of the Councells of Africk . And Prosper in Chronico an . 420. A Councell being holden at Carthage of 217. Bishops , the Synodal Decrees were sent to Pope Zozimus , which being approved , the Pelagian heresy was condemned in the whole world . In the sixt Century many heresies were condemned in the 5. Synod . In the 7. Century and sixt Synod were condemned the Monothelits , wherin presided the Pop's Legats , though the Emperor was present , and subscribed , but after all the Bishops ; not as a Judge , but as on who consented and submitted to their judgment . In the 8. Century and 7. Synod of 350. Bishops , were declared and condemned as hereticks , they , who opposed the worship of Jmages , wherin also presided the Pop's Legats , wherof Photius saith : This sacred and great Councell condemned a barbarous heresy newly invented by wicked and execrable men . &c. For they did terme the adorable Image of Christ , ( wherby erronious idolatry is excluded ) an Idol , &c. In the 9. Century and 8. Synod many controversies were decided , and the Pop's Legats presided . The Emperor was present , and subscrib'd , but after the Legats and Patriarchs ; and plainly acknowledged that the judgment of Religious Controversies apertain'd not to him , and that by subscribing , he only testifyed his Consent . In the 10. Century we read of no heresy , but of the Greeks Schism . In the 11. Century , Pope Leo the 9. in a Councell at Vercelli , and Pope Nicolas 2. in a Councell at Rome of 113. Bishops , condemned the heresy of Berengarius , against the real presence , and Transsubstantiation . ( Lanfrancus lib. 1. contra Bereng . ) This Berengarius was no great scholler , as Archbishop Guido says , but very ambitious , and thought to acquire fame by his new opinion . After twice recanting and returning to his heresy , in his last sickness perceiving his end to draw neer , Iohn Gerson relates these his last words . My God. Thou wilt this day appeare to my salvation , as J hope , for my repentance ; or to my damnation , as I feare , for deceiving with pervers doctrin others whom afterwards I could not reduce to the truth of thy Sacrament . In the 12. Century Jnnocent the second Bishop of Rome , condemned the heresy of Peter Abaylard . ( see S. Bernard . epist 194. ) And Pope Eugenius 3. condemned the error of Gilbert Porretanus in the Councell of Rhems . ( see S. Bern. serm . 80. in Cantica . ) In the 13. Century , Pope Innocent 3. condemned the error of Ioachim the Abbot , in the Lateran Councell . And afterwards Pope Gregory 10. in the Generall Councell of Lions , condemned the Greeks error . In the 14. Century Pope Clement 5. condemned the errors of the Begards , in the Councell of Vienna . In the 15. Century the errors of Iohn Hus , and Iohn Whicliff were condemned in the Councell of Constance by Pope Martin 5. And the errors of the Greeks in the Councell of Florence , by Pope Eugenius 4. Now what reason can Protestants give why Pius . 4. Bishop of Rome , and the Councell of Trent ( though of his calling and party ) might not condemn the opinion of Protestants , as lawfully and legaly , as his Predecessors had don in every age the like opinions of other Reformers ? Both condemners and condemned were Christians , for hereticks must be baptised , otherwise they are rather Pagans then hereticks : The condemned Christians were often Patriarchs and Bishops , some-times as many as the Condemners ; and yet neither could their Plea of Christianity , or pretence of Scripture , or parity in dignity , or equality in number , exempt them from the validity and legality of the Roman Censures , vnto which if they did not submit , all the Catholick world held them for obstinat hereticks . Therfore we may not , without contradicting both reason and authority , the common sense of the Church , and the general custom of Christian antiquity , allow the exceptions which Protestants plead against the Pope , and the Councell of his Bishops , that forsooth they are but a part of the Catholick Church , and therfore as party concerned , incompetent Judges and witnesses in controversies of Christian Religion . We have seen the weakness and ill success of the protestant design in this distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of faith , and how they are rejected as hereticks by the Greeck Schismaticks , and other sectaries whom they courted to be admitted as a part of their Church , we have also proved the vnreasonableness of their exceptions against the testimony and censures of the Roman Bishops and Councells : Now we will view the distinction it self , and prove that by the protestant doctrin of fundamentalls , the very foundation of Christian Religion is destroyed , and nothing believed with Divine faith . SECT . XII . God's veracity is denyed by Protestancy , and by the Prelatick distinction and doctrin of fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of faith . THe foundation of Christian Religion is , the belief of God's veracity . The belief of God's veracity consists not only in acknowledging that whatsoever God saith , is true ; ( that was never denyed by any heretick , and yet all hereticks deny his veracity ) but consists in acknowledging also that whatsoever doctrin is sufficiently proposed as spoken or revealed by God , is infallibly true , and that God is the Author of the same . To avoyd all disputes concerning the sufficiency of the proposal of God's revelations , we will condescend so far to our Protestants Adversaries , as to make themselves Judges therof , provided they will be so Religious and rational , as to grant , that to Divine Majesty ought not be denyed a prerogative which by the dictamen of reason , the laws of nature , and the practise of themselves , and of all Nations , is due and exhibited to Majesty , and Magistracy , and to all temporal Soveraigns ; Viz. To speak and declare their mind by the mouth of others , their inferiour Officers and Ministers ; wherfore as subjects do judge it a sufficient proposal of the regal authority , and confess them-selves are obliged to believe that their Soveraign speaks and commands , when certain officers ( known by the vsual marks and badges of their Master's Soveraignty , and their own military , or civil charges ) propose his orders , either by proclamation , letters patents , or otherwise : so Protestants will acknowledg that all Christians are bound to believe it i● a sufficient proposal of the 〈◊〉 existence of Divine Revelation , and that God speaks or commands , whensoever his mind is declared to them by that Church , and Ministers , who beare ( at least ) as authentick marks and badges of God's authority , and of their own ministery , to evidence their trust and jurisdiction , as the Officers of state and Justice do in a Republick or 〈◊〉 Government : In a word , all that we desire of Protestants is , that they will give as much credit and respect to God , as to Princes , and no less to the Ministers of God's Church , then to Senators , or to the Officers of a King's Court. But their fundamental distinction dispenseth with all such duties , and leads them a quite contrary way ; 〈…〉 not obliged to believe the mysteries of faith as they are proposed by the Roman Catholick Church ( though the sayd Church be more authentickly waranted thervnto by God then any Ministers or Magistra● are waranted to 〈…〉 of state by their Prince ) vnless it be clearly evident 〈…〉 ( evidently credible will not serve their turn ) that God revealed what the Church proposeth as his word and command . Such Doctrines of the Roman Church as they fancy cleer , or self evident , either by their owne privat spirit and discourse , or by the vnanimous and general acknowledgment of all Christians , such and only such do Protestants believe as points of faith , and call them fundamental articles , or articles necessary for salvation ; all others either they hould only as probable opinions , and things of indifferency , or reject as superfluous and superstitious . And because the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation are generally professed in these parts of Europe by all Christians ( though not by all in the Catholick sense , but with certain interpretations , ) Therfore the learned Prelatick Protestant Writers , both ancient and modern , reduce all the articles , and the total summe of Catholick faith , and of the foure first generall Councells , to a belief of the Trinity and Incarnation ; that is to some Kind of faith ( though it be but the Arian ) in JESUS Christ the Son of God , and Saviour of the world , as Doctor Morton Bishop of Duresme , and others teach , who vpon this score maintain that the Arian Churches ( and by consequence all ancient hereticks ) are to be accounpted members of the Church of God : We have quoted their words num . 3. of the precedent section . That no King's Ministers , or Magistrats , have so authentick marks and badges to evidence in them-selves their Master's authority for exercising their respective charges , and jurisdictions , as the Roman Catholick Church hath of being entrusted and apointed by God to deliver his Divine doctrin , declare his sense of Scripture , and decide Religious controversies , is manifest by the signs and marks of God's Church , compared with the marks , and badges of Princes Officiers . Omitting many other marks of the true Church , J will touch but three , which are Conversion of Kings and Nations from paganism to Christianity ; Succession of Pastors , and doctrin , from the Apostles , to this present ; and miracles . All these are visible only in the Roman Catholick Church , and are more authentick ( because they cannot be easily counterfeited ) then any human euidences , even the most esteemed , which is the King's hand and Seale . To say because some pretended miracles have bin impostures , no miracles at all are true , or none ought to be credited , is no less vnreasonable , then to cry down all current money , because there is some fals coyne , and is as ridiculous and rebellious , as to disobey and reject all royall commissions and orders of Councell , because some may , or have bin counterfeited , and subreptitiously obtained . But suppose ( as Protestants pretend ) that miracles were ceased ; I hope the Conversion of so many Nations and Kings of the Gentils to Christianity , and a continuall succession of the Roman doctrin and Pastors , are neither ceased , not counterfeited ; no other Church but the Roman Catholick hath these signes of God's providence ; and as non can deny but that they are more convincing arguments , and greater evidences of the super-natural Ministery and jurisdiction which the Roman Church doth claim , then any human signes , badges , or commissions can be of the Royal authority , exercised by King's officiers either civil or military , so likewise it must be acknowledged that there is a cleerer and greater obligation vpon men to submit their judgments and wills to the definitions and Decrees of the Roman Catholick Church and Councells , proposing or declaring God's revelations and commands , then there can be vpon subjects to obey the orders of temporal Souveraigns , published , or proclaimed by their chief Ministers , and subordinat officers . Therfore as it is notorious Rebellion in subjects against their King's authority , to contemn his commands when they are proposed by Ministers that shew his commissions , so is it manifest heresy , and a denial of God's veracity , to contemn or doubt of the doctrin proposed as Divine by the Roman Catholick Church , so authentickly qualified with the aforesaid supernatural marks : And as it is want of duty and alleigance in subjects , and a ridiculous excuse for not obeying Orders , to pretend they have not cleer evidence that the King signed them ▪ or ( for all they know ) that his Minister , or Officer may be an Impostor , and his commission or warrant counterfeit , so must it be concluded want of christian belief , and excess of hereticall obstinacy in Protestants , to excuse their contempt of the Roman Catholick doctrin , and authority , by pretending a possibility of mistake in the same Church , because forsooth , they are not convinced of it's infallibility , and authority by a Demonstration , or revelation so evident , that though they would , they cannot deny it . Such evidences are not necessary nor even compatible with Christian belief , as shall be proved herafter : less are sufficient to convince them-selves and all rational men of a strickt obligation to believe and obey a temporal Prince , and Magistrat ; and sure they are vnreasonable if they imagin God deserves , less belief , duty , and subjection , then Princes . That Protestants believe not their own Churches , or Congregations , with out doubts and feares of being mistaken in the reformed doctrin , and authority of proposing the same , we do not admire , because not any on of their churches doth pretend to infallibility , nor could hitherto , or can yet shew any sign or seale of God for their sense of Scripture , or reformations ; but that they should think them-selves obliged to take a Herald or Trompeters Coat , and a Constable or Cathpol's staffe , and other such badges ( so easily counterfeited ) for sufficient evidences of the King's authority , and yet except against the authentickness of the conversion of Kings and Nations , the Succession and sanctity of Pastors , and doctrin of the Roman Catholick Church . Which are things that cannot be counterfeited , must needs be the effect of prejudice and passion , proceeding from want of christianity , especialy when they see that others as learned , cautious , and conscientious , as them-selves , after weighing all objections and circumstances , submit their judgments to the sufficiency of these signs , for making the Roman Catholick authority authentickly Divine , and that we believe what is proposed , with out the least suspition or feare either of fraud or frailty in the Roman Catholick Councells , which are the Proposers and Ministers of God's word . Besids ; if Protestants did consider the nature of Veracity , and God's Providence , they would never doubt of the application of his power to preserve the Roman Catholick Church from error , seing it hath so many signs of his truth and Ministery , as the conversion of Nations , succession and Sanctity of doctrin and Doctors , miracles , vnity of faith , &c. For , Veracity ( as Aristotle and all Philosophers define it ) is a Virtue inclining to speak truth : And he is not inclined to speak truth that countenanceth falshood in so particular a manner as God doth the doctrin and jurisdiction of the Roman Catholick Church . A King that might , if he would and yet doth not hinder his Ambassadors , and Ministers , or any other persons , from abusing other Princes , or his own Subjects by their speaking or commanding in his Majesties name , or at least in speaking other-wise then he really intended they should , and had prescribed by his commission or instructions ; such a King I say , is not inclined to speak truth , because he willingly permits his officers , or others that pretend to speak in his name ( or really do speak by his Orders ) to vtter falshood , and misinterpret his words and meaning , notwithstanding that he may easily prevent that fraud and frailty , and reapeth no benefit by either , an evident argument that he is not avers to such false practises . No Protestant doubts but that my Lord Chancellor speaks truly the King's mind and sense when he pursues his Majesties speech in Parliament in his Royal presence , and hearing ; and to think other-wise , would be not only to tax my Lord Chancellor with folly , but the King with an inclination to falshood , and a fault unbeseeming the dignity of a Prince , the care and charge of the Country's Father , as also the sincerity and veracity of an honest man. Seing therfore God is as much inclined to speak truth as any thing can be to love it self ( for God is truth by essence ) if it be against the dignity of a Prince , and against the nature of human veracity and honesty , ( which is but a shadow of the Divine ) to permit falshood in Ministers of state or in servants sent but of ordinary errands , when their Masters can easily prevent it ; how much more repugnant must it be to the nature of God , and to his Divine veracity , to permit the Roman Church , in his own presence , name , and hearing , tell lyes , and disguise them and it self , with so probable and plausible signes of his Divine truth , and Commission , as to seale it's doctrin with marks , and miracles so vndeniably supernatural , that the most learned Protestants acknowledg they are , and can only bewrought by God's power ? light can as litle concurre to produce darkness , as truth to favor falshood . Even men that love truth , hate to heare others tell lyes , and do contradict vntruths , if them-selves be present , and quoted for Authors of the stories ; They will not entertain servants given to that vice , nor permit them weare their livery , much less employ them in matters of concern , wherin they may abuse their Master's word and prejudice his friends , or Tenants . Can Protestants then imagin that God doth not only permit the Roman Catholick Church to weare his livery , and his authority , but that he doth promote the stories , and lies of that Church ( in case it's doctrin be fals , ) for the space of so many ages with so great signes and testimonies of his Divine approbation , that the wisest and wairiest men of the world ( after much study and examination ) did , and do still preferr it before all other Religions ? Do they think that God is not as much concern'd in preventing frauds , faults , and frailties in his Ministers , and Messengers , as temporal Princes are concern'd in the credit , and truth of theirs ? Wherfore if Protestants judg it a breach of faith , or want of truth and worth in a temporal Prince not to endeavor ( to the vtmost of his power ) that his Ministers and messengers deceive not his subjects , and Allies , by mistaking , or misapplying his Commands , or demands ; they can not but see the absurdity of believing that God doth permit Ministers , and Messengers so supernaturaly qualified as those of the Roman Church are , to err in proposing his revelations vnto all man kind ; his Veracity being as highly concern'd in the infallibility of the Proposers , as his power makes him capable of preventing their human mistakes , and of confounding the Devill 's malice . But Protestants have found out a new device , and defence of their distinction . They grant it is against God's Veracity to permit the Roman Catholick Church to err in proposing the Fundamental articles of faith , that is , such articles as Protestants fancy absolutly necessary for saluation ; which are ( say they ) that Scripture is the word of God , and JESUS Christ the son of God , and Redeemer of the world , some add the Mystery of the Trinity : ( hitherto we could never obtain from them a more exact Cathalogue of their Protestant Fundamentals ) As for the other doctrines of the Roman Catholick Church 〈◊〉 and proposed as Divine , Protestants think they may be denyed and questioned , without any offence to God , denyal or doubt of his veracity . I could never heare any other reason , or disp●rity for this their distinction , but that the measure of the infallibility of the Church ought to be our salvation , because it was the end proposed by God in the institution and constitution of his Church . In such articles therfore ( say they ) as are absolutly necessary for salvation , the Church cannot but be infallible in the proposal ; otherwise we could not believe them ( and consequently not be saved ) because we can not be sure that God revealed them . But this their Fundamental distinction still destroys the foundation of Christian belief , which is God's veracity . They make their own conveniency , and not God's veracity , the motive of crediting the Mysteries of faith ; as if truth it self , or God's inclination to speak truth , could be greater in on matter then other ; or that the belief of any article could be more Fundamental , or of greater importance , and necessity for salvation , then to believe that God is as much concerned and as necessarily inclined to speak truth as well by the mouth of his Church , as if him-self spoke immediatly , as well also in the least matter , as in the greatest ; and by consequence he is as much engaged to preserve the Church from error in on , as in the other . So that to believe the testimony or proposal of the Church in a matter absolutly necessary for salvation , and not to believe it in a matter not absolutly necessary ( when equaly proposed by the same testimony , and authority ) is as much as to say , that God can speak by his Church , litle vntruths , but not great vntruths , or that he may permit his veracity to be violated , or vitiated in litle , but not in great matters ; as if forsooth , the authority and infallibility of the Church were to be measured by the matter it proposeth , and not by the manner and supernatural marks of the proposal and by the dignity of the speaker . More over ; their pretence of the Churches fallibility in not Fundamental articles , hath no solid ground ; for the Protestant Church is either fallible or infallible in saying so , and in it's doctrin of Fundamentals ; if fallible , non can prudently rely thervpon , either in this , or in any other matters of faith ; if infallible , then the Protestant distinction of Fundamentals must be a fundamental article of faith , because they admit not any Church to be infallible in articles that are not fundamental . And yet the same Protestants say the Roman Catholick Church is also infallible in fundamentals ; but the Roman Catholick , and Protestant Church contradict on the other in this doctrin of fundamentals , Therfore one of both must erre ; and that on must be the Protestant , because it maintains that two Churches teaching contradictory doctrins , may both be infallible therin . Add hervnto , that if the Roman Catholick Church be infallible in fundamentals , or in all articles necessary for salvation , how can Protestants excuse their reformation and separation , from the guilt of a grievous sin , and schism ? so vncharitable a breach is not justifiable by less then damnable or dangerous doctrin in the Church that is forsaken ; And what damnable doctrin or danger of damnation could , or can be in adhearing to the Roman Church , it being confessedly infallible in Fundamentals ; that is , in all things necessary for salvation ? If therfore God's veracity is denyed ( even according to the Protestants doctrin and distinction ) by saying that the Church is fallible in fundamentals , it can be for no other reason , but because the fundamental articles are sufficiently proposed by the Church as revealed by God ; and seing the not fundamental articles are proposed by the same Church and testimony , and ( by consequence ) as sufficiently as the fundamental , Protestants must grant that God's veracity is no less denyed by maintaining the fallibility of the Church in not Fundamentals , then in Fundamentals . So that they must either acknowledg the infallibility of the Church in all articles and matters of faith , whether absolutly necessary , or not necessary for salvation ; or deny God's veracity , and the foundation of all Christian belief . SECT . XIII . The same further demonstrated , and proved , that neither the Protestant faith , nor the faith lately asserted in a book called sure footing in Christianity , is Christian belief : where also is treated of the resolution of faith . NOt the ma●●er believed , but the Motive and manner of believing , makes a belief Christian . There may be an historical , or imaginary faith of Christ , as well as Divine and real ; that is , men may believe the mysteries of Christianity , 〈◊〉 they believe the roman history , and fancy that such a belief is not human , but Divine . This we maintain to be the Protestants case and faith , which is not grounded vpon Divine revelation , but vpon human persuasion and vpon an imaginary evidence of God's revelation . They assent not to the mystery of the Trinity , or to any other , because God revealed it , but because they think it vndeniably evident ( either by the publick confession of all Christians , or by the privat suggestion of their own spirit , or by the principles of natural reason , or by their pretended cleerness of Scripture ) that God revealed such mysteries as they are pleased to make choyce of , for the Articles or fundamentals of their Reformations . And therfore according to the diversity of the evidences wherupon they build their faith , the Protestant sects are framed , and divided , into Prelaticks , whose Motive and evidence is the concurrence of all Christians in their fundamentals of Christianity ; and into Fanatiks ( amongst whom we include Presbiterians &c. ) who rely vpon the evidence of their spirit , and the cleerness of Scripture ; and into Socinians , who make evident reason the rule of their Religion &c. That these Protestant persuasions are not grounded vpon Divine revelation , or vpon God's Authority , and veracity , we proove , because it is impossible to make an authority the motive of our belief , vnless we believe all things that are equaly proposed and delivered to vs as depending of , and asserted by that authority . St. Austin says non can believe that the Ghospel of St. Matthew is the word of God , vnless he doth likewise believe that the Acts of the Apostles is the word of God ; because they are both delivered as God's word by the same authority . The same testimony , and the same visible Church which delivered to the first Protestants the mystery of the Trinity and Incarnation , as revealed by God , delivered also to them Transubstantiation , Purgatory &c. as revealed by God ; and they or their followers can not pretend to have any other testimony for the engagement of God's veracity , in certifying them of the truth , and revelation of the articles they retain , but the same testimony which delivered to them the articles they reject . Therfore the reality and Divinity of the revelation being equally testified and applicable by on and the same testimony to both articles , aswell to the retained as to the rejected , it is impossible that Protestants can believe those they reta●●● , moved thervnto by God's veracity , or for being revealed by God ; seing the same veracity , and revelation is equally and as cleerly applyed by the testimony of the Catholick visible Church to the other articles which they reject as not revealed . If you ask a learned Protestant why doth he believe the mystery of the Trinity , or Incarnation ? He will answer ( as all Hereticks ever did aswell as Catholicks ) because God revealed it ? But if you inquire further , why doth he believe that God revealed it ? He will tell you , because it is manifest in SVBSECT I. I Am right sorry to number among Protestants and Manichees ( who hould also this error of believing nothing which they did not fancy to be self evident ) the Author of a book called sure footing in Christianity who will needs have it self evident ( by virtue forsooth of tradition ) that God revealed all the points of our Roman Catholick doctrin . Jt's pitty he stumbled so irrecoverably at his very first step , pretending to see so cleerly , and tread so surely vpon a plain ground : had he bin as wary in the choice of his principles , as he is witty in deducing his conclusions , I should have followed him as an excellent Guide ; but he striving to raise Christian faith vnto a greater height of evidence then is consistent with it's nature , and with our merit and liberty , or convenient for the Government of God's Church , he hath fallen into the Fundamental error , and foundation of Protestancy , but yet with this difference , that albeit he agreeth with Protestants in making cleer evidence of the revelation , the ground or rule of faith , and by consequence in destroying all Christian belief , yet he takes a contrary way from them : Protestants by reducing their evidence to very few points , reject most of the articles of the Roman Catholick Church , as incredible ; but the Author of the sure footing , by amplifying , and applying his evidence to every article of our faith , makes them all more then credible , that is self evident . He and Protestants agree in the rule , but differr in the application . Neither of them will believe any thing but what they fancy evident ; but on party fancies all is evident ; the other fancies litle or nothing is evident . Jf they vnderstand on another , they may soon come to an accord , and the sequell of their principle will be , to take away all Christian belief : for Christian belief must of necessity involue some obscurity in that Act ( or at least formality ) wherby we assent vnto the mystery believed . Otherwise if the essence , or nature of Christian faith were consistent with cleer evidence , and with the want of all obscurity , why may it not be sayd that the blessed have faith in heaven ? nay , why may it not be sayd that the second person of the Trinity hath ●aith ab 〈◊〉 , if it be sufficient for faith that on assent● to truth for 〈…〉 , and speaking of an other , though 〈◊〉 evidently 〈…〉 , and sees also that the other speaks . The sure footing therfore doth faile and 〈…〉 ●eason of the Author 's confounding the evidence of our obligation to belieue the articles proposed by the Church , with the eviden●e of God's , revealing them by the 〈◊〉 proposal of the Church . The testimony of the Church confirmed by so many supernatural signes , makes it cleerly euident to vs , that we are bound to believe , God revealed all the doctrin delivered as his ▪ by the tradition and testimony of the Church ; but the tradition or signes of the Church do not make 〈◊〉 or self 〈◊〉 that God hath de facto revealed 〈…〉 , which the Church proposeth as Divine . It is moraly evident that God revealed it , but not Metaphysicaly evident , according to Schoolmens expression . This moral evidence of God's revealing what the Church proposeth , induceth a cl●●r and evident obligation vpon the will and soul of man to adheare ▪ as vnalterably to the doctrin of the Church , as if we had metaphysical or cleer evidence that God revealed the same ; and the motiue of our faith , and of this adhesion is God's veracity ; because it is manifest by the very light of Nature that we ought to believe God would not permit such a miraculous and moral evidence of his own revealing , or speaking the mysteries of christianity by the mouth of our Church vnless he did realy speake by the same Church . For want of this doctrin and distinction , many vnderstand not how a man can possibly or at least prudently adheare or assent to an object with greater assurance then he sees cleer reason for . If by cleer reason for an assent of Divine faith , be meant that the truth of the mystery assented vnto , must of necessity be cleer to the Assenter either in it self , or in it's necessaire connection with the Revelation , it is a gross mystake ; for that the difference between an assent grounded vpon cleer evidence of the truth , or of reason , and an assent grounded vpon Divine authority is , that the first is a cleer intellectual sight of the truth itself , the second is not so , but a cleer sight of our own obligation of assenting to the truth revealed or related , because wee see cleer and convincing signs of the sincerity and veracity of the Author or relator . Now our obligation of believing God to be the Author of the doctrin of the Church , being evident to ourselves , we are bound to assent to the same Doctrin according to the evidence of our obligation , that is with greather assurance then appearance of the truth . The evidence of our obligation to assent , is a sufficient ground for our assurance of the truth assented vnto . Wherfore albeit some Catholick Divines have pretended to maintain in their schoole disputations , that God by the infinitness of his supernatural power , may concurr to an Act of faith , though the existence of the revelation itself were evident to the believer ; yet ( besides that most of them speak irresolutly , and incoherently in that point ) they all grant that our Christian faith must always involve obscurity in it's assent , and that that faith which would have evidence both of the existence of the revelation , and of the revealers veracity , would be an other kind of faith much differring from our Christian and Catholick . Besides : we ought to consider that it is one thing to dispute in schooles of what God may do , and an other thing to believe in the Church what he hath don . In the schooles they dispute even of impossibilities , because they make it their business to exercise witt in speculations ; but in the Catholick Church our chief business consists in believing and practising The reason why Faith doth require a mixture of obscurity , or want of cleer evidence ▪ is , because to believe , is to trust him whom you believe for the truth signified by his words ; and if you did see the truth in it self , or know that it cannot be separated from the words spoken , you can no more trust the speaker for the truth so connected with his words , then trust him for the money , you know to be contained in a purse , which he delivers vnto your hands : for though you do not see the money , you see the purse , wherin you have cleer evidence the money is contained . To believe therfore , is to take on 's word for the truth ( as you do his bond or bill for money ) for which you have no other security but his worth and veracity ; and the greater on s worth , and veracity is , the more you ought to rely vpon it , and doubt the less of his performance ; and therfore if you require any greater assurance , or evidence of the truth , then his supposed inclination to the same , or his veracity , you do him a great injury , and resolve not to trust , or believe him . Wherfore God's worth veracity , or inclination to truth , being infinit , we ought not to exact a cleer sight of the truth it self , nor of any things evidently connected therwith ; if we do , we neither trust nor believe him : his inclination therfore to truth being infinit , we ought not to retain the least suspition or feare of being deceived either by himself , or by the Church whervnto he gives the charge and signes of declaring and proposing his word to vs : because he who is infinitly inclined to speak truth , is inclined to do it , not only when himself speaks , but every way that truth can be spoken , or by every person and Organ that may be prudently taken to speak by his commission . The Roman Church therfore being prudently taken for the Organ of God's voice , it is as impossible we should be misledd by it's doctrin , as it is that God should go against his infinit inclination to truth , or should violat his own veracity . Had God's veracity bin limited to his own personal , or immediat speech , and not extended to what-soever he delivers by the mouth and ministery of others and of his Church , it had not bin infinit , his credit would have ended with Christ's preaching to the Apostles ; and though they were bound to believe their Master , non could be obliged to believe them . But seing God's veracity is infinit , and his words must continue for ever , they can be as little confined to the persons or Pastors of any on certain age , as infinit veracity to on particular truth , or infinit excellency and goodness to any one degree of perfection . Now seing that God's worth and veracity , or his infinit inclination to speak truth , cannot be greatet in on matter , nor in on age , then in an other ; and that according to on 's inclination to any thing , must be the application of his power to effect it , we must conclude that God is as much engaged by his worth and goodness , and as much inclined by his veracity , and as much applied by his omnipotency , to speak truth by the mouth of the Church , as by his own , and in the least matter as much as in the greatest , and in every succeeding age as in that of the Apostles , and that vnless his worth , wisdom , veracity , goodness , and omnipotency faile , that Church which beareth the miraculous marks of his authority , and exerciseth his ministery , must be infallible in proposing and declaring his will and word in all Controversies whatsoever . So that they who grant the Church 〈◊〉 infallible only in fundamental articles of faith , deny God●●oodness , worth , veracity , and omnipotency : and they who believe not the doctrin of the Roman Catholick Church , as the word of God , ( because forsooth , they have not cleer evidence , that it is the word of God ) do no more believe , nor trust God in the other they assent vnto , then he who says he believes and trusts a man , whose word or writing he will not take for 100. pounds , vnless he delivers to him at the same time that summe of money not only sealed , but seen in a bag . The reason of this last assertion is cleer ; because one of the differences between the word of God and the word of men is , that you mistrust men for the truth , though you heare their own voice , and have evidence that they speak , the imperfection of their nature , making their speech subject to falshood , and themselves to frailty , therfore we may mistrust their veracity , and doubt they be mistaken , or deceive vs , though they pretend and profess to speak nothing but truth . It is not so with God , whose nature being infinitly perfect , and truth it self , it is manifest by natural reason that he can neither be mistaken , nor deceive vs by his words , and by consequence if we knew evidently that him-self speaks , or that the words or doctrin vttered by the Church , are his , we can no more mistrust or not believe him , then mistrust his Deity , or feare a flaw in his perfections , and fraud in his proceedings . So that Protestants resolving not to believe the doctrin of the Church of Rome ( made sufficiently credible by supernatural signes to be Divine ) vntill it be made cleerly evident to them that it is the word of God , resolve their faith into heretical obstinacy , because they resolve , not to believe or trust God , that evidence which they exact , not being compatible with the merit , trust , obscurity , and obsequiousness of Christian belief , nor with the duty of rationall Creatures . They may be compared to some Irish or Scotch Rebells , refusing to obey the King's Lieu-tenant , and Commissioners , because for-sooth they have not clear evidence , that the commissions and commands are signed by the King , though they see his Majesty's hand and seale for the authority set over them , which also is obeyd and acknowledged by the better sort , and greater part of both Nations , yet the Rebells will not submit to any Orders , vnless the King leave England , go in person to rule them , and satisfie every particular fellow , that he hath named such a Lieu-tenant or Commissioner , or vnless his Majesty will immediatly by him-self exercise his royal Jurisdiction , signe and seale his commissions in their sight . &c. Some will think there is a great disparity in the comparison ; for that God may without trouble or prejudice to him-self reveale his will and pleasure to every particular person , which Kings can no more do , then be in many places at one time . Therfore what inconveniency can it be that God make evident to every particular person , either by a clear signe of his presence , or by an evident proof of his spirit , which doctrin is Divine , which not , without obliging men to believe that the Roman Catholick or any other Church is infallible and can not propose falshood for God's word ? To this we answer , that God might not only reveale his mysteries , to every person , but save us also without subordination to any Church or Pastors , or dependency of Sacraments ; but all Christians agree that he hath bin pleased not to do so , so that the question is not what he could have don , but what he hath don . But it appears by the light of reason , that ther is a certain distance , and decorum due to Majesty and superiority , by virtue wherof God , ( or even a Creature , that is supreme in any government ) may command his inferiors and subjects by subordinat officers , and warant these officer's authority by some outward signes and seales of his Soveraignty , which signes ( though they may be possibly counterfeited , yet ) oblige the People so governed to obey Ministers so qualified , as submissively as if him-self had immediatly delivered his own commands . Wherfore though it were possible that a King might without trouble write , and deliver all his o●ders immediatly , or without the assistance of Secretaries , Ministers , and Messengers , yet it were not fit ; And why the Protestant Doctors that write of this subject , should think fit , that God ought to deprive him-self of a decency , and decorum ( due even to human Majesty ) to humor their curiosity , or to comply with their obstinacy , J can not comprehended , nor attribute to any other thing but to want of humility , and excess of heresy , the malice wherof consists in contemning God's authority , and denying his veracity when sufficiently appearing in the Church ; and though not self evidently , yet so convincingly as to make our obligation of submitting thervnto , evident . Jt is therfore agross absurdity to think , or say , that the reverence due to the Divine authority , obligeth vs , not to submit , or not assent therunto , vnless it be more then moraly evident ( and by consequence more them sufficiently evident ) vnto us , that we can not be mistaken in our submission , or assent . For , hence would follow , the greater the authority is , the more slow we ought to be in submitting therunto , or ( which is the same ) the more inclined God is to truth and the more powerfull he is to practise the same and to keep the Church stedy to truth , the more slow we ought to be , in believing the Church or God's known Ministers and Messengers . SECT . XIV . Reasons for liberty of Conscience ; and how much both Piety and Policy is mistaken in making Prelatick Protestancy the Religion of the state by continuing and pressing the sanguinary and penal statutes against the Roman Catholick faith , and the Act of vniformity against sectaries . THere is not any thing more damnable to soules , or more dangerous to states , then to make the laws of the land , the rule of faith , and temporal statuts the ground of spiritual jurisdiction . It is endeed Christian piety to fence and favour Religion with Imperial edicts , and Royal Decrees ; and therfore it was prophecied of the Church , Kings shall be thy nursing Fathers , and Queens thy Mothers ; but to found the belief of eternal verities and of Christian Religion vpon temporal statuts , and to frame the doctrin of the Church , and the Caracter of the Clergy according to Acts of Parliament , and to the interest of the Prince is neither piety nor policy in lawfull , and vndoubted Soveraigns . What Queen Elizabeth did to salue the sore of her illegitimacy was as great a prejudice ( and ought as litle be made a president ) to the royall family of the Stewards , as Oliver Cromwel's Tyrany ; the laws and Religion of both , equaly tending to it's total ruin , and exclusion from the Crown , with this only difference , that Queen Elizabeth destroy'd the Stewards , by reforming the Old Religion , whervpon their right was grounded , but Cromwell destroy'd them by reforming the New Religion , whervnto they had conformed , and wherby they endeavored to setle their Throne . And indeed Souveraigns can expect no greater security , or better success then the Royal family of the Stewards hath had , whilst the Religion which their Subjects profess , hath no other certainty , or setlement , but what is received from an arbitrary interpretation of Scripture , confirmed by temporal statuts . That the Protestant prelatick Religion hath no other rule but this , and the laws of the Lands , is manifest by so many changes of it's articles , liturgy , caracter , and Translations of Scripture , by publick and Parliamentory authority ; That it hath no certainty from it's own principle● ▪ is manifest by the acknowledged fallibility of that Church , and by the liberty of interpreting God's word , and by the prerogative of judging controversies of faith which the Tenets of all the Reformations and example of the first Reformers allow to any particular person , that will claim the privilege of a reformed Christian , or the spirit of a godly or guifted Protestant . This liberty of professing , and the vncertainty of protestancy , having proved in all places and persons wherunto it had access , a seed of rebellion , destructive not only of the substance of Religion , but of the tye of alleigance ; it was thought necessary for the preservation of Princes , and the peace of their subjects , to reduce the variety ( and regulat the extravagancy ) of the dissenting reformed doctrines , into publick professions of protestancy , as sutable to the interest of the souveraigns , and inclinations of the subjects , and customs of their Countries , as could be devised . And because the government of England continued Monarchical , and that Episcopacy doth favor Monarchy , and is essential to Parliaments , the protestancy of the Church of England was made prelatick , notwithstanding , the incoherency of Episcopacy with the very foundation of the first and pure pretended reformations . And seing ther is such antipathy between the caracter of Episcopacy , and the principles of protestancy , that the Church of England in the beginning of Q. Elizabeths reign durst not claim that caracter , or any spiritual jurisdiction , by succession from the Apostles , and their successors the ensuing Catholick Bishops , it was content to receive both , as also the confirmation of it's prelatick doctrin , from an vnheard-of spiritual supremacy of a lay Prince , and from Acts of Parliament ; and so was it made the legal Religion of the state , contrary to the principles both of the ancient Catholick faith and of the new protestant reformations . How contrary this setlement of prelatick protestancy by a persecution of Popery , is to Christian piety , may easily appeare to them who will remember what hath bin sayd hertofore of the sanctity , antiquity , and continuall succession of the Roman Catholick Religion from the Apostles to this present , and reflect vpon the principles , begining , and progress , of protestancy in general , and of the prelatick in particular . How inconsistent with policy it is , to press by the severity of laws a profession so generally dislik't , as the prelatick ( it being contrary to the ancient Religion , and not agreeing with the new Reformations ) experience hath demonstrated , when not only all foreign Roman Catholick Princes and people stood neuters , ( not much concerned whether Protestant Prelacy , or Presbytery should prevaile in England ; they pittied indeed the Royal family , and wish'd them good success against their rebellious subjects , but this they wish'd to them as Princes , not as Prelatiks ) not only , Isay , foreign Catholicks were neuters , but all the Protestant Churches abroad were more inclined to favor the Presbiterian and fanatick English and Scotch Congregations , then the King's Religion ; for that they come neerer to them and to the primitive and fundamental principles of Protestancy . The reason why the Prelatick persuasion is so odious to the reformed Churches abroad , and so opposed by Presbiterians and other Protestant Congregations at home , is , because the formality of it's ceremonies , and the legality of it's discipline are incompatible with the primitive spirit , liberty , and principles of protestancy . The protestant Bishops would fain Lord it over their brethren , not content with the name and power of Protestant superintendents , they strive to imitat the authory and severity of the Catholick Episcopal jurisdiction , in their Courts , and do what they can to retain a ceremonious decency in there Churches , but neither is agreable with the nature and spirit of the Protestant Reformations , which consist in an independency and exemption from all spiritual superiority and ceremonie of a particular person being supreme Judge and Interpreter of Scripture . This spiritual judicature is the spiritual birth-right of every Protestant , and the ground wherupon Luther and his followers raised their reformations , and their new sense of the Ghospel . Wherfore the res●rai● of this Protestant evangelical liberty , and birth-right , by the rigor of our lawes in favor of the prelatick jurisdiction , and disciplin , must needs make the law-makers and their religion as odious to all zealous Protestants , as liberty of opinion and fancied Scripture are deere to a stubborn and humor●om peop●● ▪ Let it then be maturely considered whether any thing can be more daungerous to the safety of the Soveraign , or to the tranquillity of the state , then to enact lawes in a protestant Commonweale , or Kingdom , wherby the very foundation and birth-right of Protestancy is made penal , and the most Religious observers of the protestant rule of faith are rendred incapable of all employments both in Church and state ? And that all this violence is practised to support a Creed , the 39. articles of a doubtful sense , and a Clergy of a doubtful caracter , even according to their own prelatick principles , and according to the primitive principles of protestancy , and to vphould a Church that professeth it's own fall and fallibility , and therfore ( for all it self knows ) is no true Church , but may be mistaken in it's doctrin , and lead all that rely vpon it's ministery , and instruction , into eternal damnation , and can give no satisfaction , or security to such as are of their communion , nor produce any thing for justifying the severity of these proceedings , but a Parliaments Act of vniformity , and other temporal statuts . To which every Presbiterian and fanatick doth answer , that lawes enacted in favor of Religion , do suppose , not make , the Religion reasonable ; for , though reason be the ground of all human lawes , yet no human lawes can be the ground of Religion . When all this is maturely considered , it will doubtless appeare to be a sad case , that a poore man who desires to be saved , and informed of the true Church , and of Christ's doctrin , and conform himself therunto , shall be compell'd by forfeitures imprisonment and banishment &c. to the prelatick do●trin and Church of England , and shall have no other reason 〈◊〉 redress given him for this violence , and punishments , but that he doth not conform to the Religion established by the lawes of the Land. So much was alleadged for the Idolls , and Religion of the Pagan Emperous , and vpon the same ground ( of law ) did they persecute the primitive Christians ; Doubtless all Quakers , Presbiterians , and non Conformists think themseves as glorious sufferers , as the holy primitive Martyrs and Confessors ; which persuasion in so great and zealous a multitude , can not be voyd of daunger , and ought to be remedyed more by reason then rigor ; for though from Roman Catholicks ( whose principles are peaceable , and incline them to suffer persecution with patience ) no great prejudice may be feared ( if they will be directed by their profession ) yet experience hath taught , that all Protestant sectaries have inherited from their first Patriarchs Luther , Calvin , Crammer &c. the spirit of sedition and rebellion , which is involved in the very foundation of protestancy ; Luther openly declared so much at the Diet of Worms in presence of the Emperour Charles 5. ( Who had objected against him tumults and disorders as vndeniable effects of his doctrin ) misapplying the words of our saviour , Non veni pacem mittere , sed gladium , as if dissention , and rebellion had bin a mark of the true Ghospel . On the other side , the Presbiterians do imitate the bloudy proceedings and principles of their 〈◊〉 Fathers Zuinglius and Calvin , in deposing of Kings , and Magistrats , and make good the saying of Zuinglius , Evangelium vult sanguinem , the Reformation must be maintained by bloud . So that the sanguinary statuts in favor of prelatick protestancy , and the bloudy principles of Presbitery in in pursuance of their seditious spirit , clashing togeather , will make fine work among Christians and the prelatick Clergy , which ought by their admonitions and censures , to compose these disorders , and be Authors of peace , are despised as no Clergy , and their caracter is made the subject of discord , and dispute . And the Protestant Bishops , which ought to exercise the authority whervnto they pretend , retire , and recurr to the 〈◊〉 Courts for the spirituality , as well as for the legality of their jurisdiction and function , and confess in plain termes their Churches frailty and fallibility in doctrin , and leave the state to shift for it self , deprived of th●●● helps which Catholick Princes receive from the Roman Church and Clergys censures , wherwith rebellious subjects are terrified , and 〈◊〉 , or return to their duty . SVBSECT I. NEither is the daunger of disturbing the tranquillity of the state for supporting the Prelatick doctrin and caracter by temporal lawes , confin'd only to Presbiterians and Fanatiks ; the Prelatiks them-selves ( if interest prevaile not more with them then conscience , and coherency ) can not but change their Religion into a contrary persuasion , when they observe , that the mean between Popery and Presbytery ( wherin they place Prelatick protestancy , and the truth of christianity ) hath no solid foundation , or colour of reason . For what can be more absurd then to pretend , that as moral virtue is a mean or mixture of two extremes , so the truth of Christian Religion is a mean between two contrary opinions , or a mixture of Popery , and Presbitery , which are two extremes involving contradictory Tenets . Morality , I confess is a mediocrity and a kind of Mixture : For , liberality ( for example ) doth seeme to participat some thing of covetousness , and some thing of prodigality , which are extreme different ; but Christianity being truth and Divine truth , is no mean between the two , but one of the two extremes ; it is no mixture , because truth admits no mixture of falshood ; nor division , it can be but on one side . Therfore when a Presbiterian or Fanatick saith , that Scripture is the only rule of faith , and Judge of Controversies , the Catholick sayes it is not ; not both , but one of them speaks truth , Yet the Prelatick would f●ain stand like a Christian moderator or neuter between both parties , and reconcile their Contradictions , by reducing them to a third doctrin , or to a mean between truth and falshood : and the mean is , to grant both the contradictory propositions , and collogue with both sides . And indeed that is the mean , wherin Prelatick Protestancy doth consist ; when their writers defend it against Presbiterians , they grant the doctrin of Papists ; when they answer and 〈◊〉 against Papists , they maintain the doctrin of Presbiterians , for there is no other mean to reconcile , or be reconciled to contradictions , but to maintain both . And this was the custom of Luther , Calvin , Cranmer , &c. and is the ordinary practise of the ablest Prelaticks in their books of Controversy . I remit you to one of their greatest Champions , my Lord Bishop of Down , in his Dissuasive from Popery ; you need not run through the whole book , read but his first Section , and you will heare him say first , that Scripture alone is the foundation or rule of faith , and after , that it is not ; Then again , that it is nothing els but Scripture together with the Creeds , and the foure first Councells . It is as impossible therfore that a 〈◊〉 man should be in his judgment a Prelatick Protestant , as it is he should believe that God revealed contradictions . Wherfore if interest and conveniency hath not a greater 〈◊〉 vpon his profession of faith , then conscience , or coherency ( even to the principles of the Reformation ) he will not continue a prelatick , nor make temporal statuts his rule of faith , but will either ( according to the prudent dictamen of a good conscience ) become a Roman Catholick , or ( according to the rigor of the purest Protestant consequences ) become a ranck Presbiterian , or Fanatick . I report me therfore to the judgment of all moderat and sober persons , whether it be piety or policy , to engage the authority of a Protest●●● soveraign , and Parliament , in 〈◊〉 the severity of lawes against subjects for not professing the prelatick Reformation , which the most learned men therof can not maintain without granting manifest contradictions , 〈◊〉 practise without condemning the fundamental principles 〈◊〉 Protestancy ? I must confess that the Presb●●erian , Fanatick , or any other arbitrary Religion ( that is Religion directed by the letter of Scripture , subject to every man's privat interpretation ) will at length destroy the state , if ther be not a limit set to the indiscreet zeale , and extravagant f●ncies of every particular person , and Congregation that 〈◊〉 to the purity of a Reformation , but I can hardly believe that temporal lawes are a proper and efficatious meanes to refrain that spiritual liberty , which ( according to the Principles of protestancy ) is due by the Ghospel to every Protestant , and not subject to any human authority . As for that much celebrated , and generaly practised expedient and distinc●●on of Brentius , and the Divines of Wittemberg , saying , that though it belongs to every privat person to judg of Doctrin and Religion , and to distinguish the true from fals ; yet between the Prince and privat man is this difference , that as the privat man hath privat authority of judging , and deciding the doctrin of Religion , so the Prince hath publick . And through-out the whole book doth defend that the secular Prince is obliged to force his subjects ( even with punishment of death ) to that Religion and sense of Scripture which he judgeth true , and also that the subjects are bound to stick to their own contrary sense of Scripture , and Religion ; this expedient , I say , doth not prevent the daunger , or remedie the desease of a politick body , sick of protestancy , but doth increase the distemper and renders it incurable . And though in some parts of our more northern Climat , several Protestant Princes have purchased some quiet by the severity of their lawes , in favor of the sects which they profess , yet that quiet , proceeding from want of curiosity in the people of examining the truth , or from want of courage to profess it , we can not expect in the English Monarchy the like acquiescense , and success ; the British Nations are naturaly serious , and scrupulous in the scrutin● of Religion , and either zealous , or seditious in the maintenance therof . Wherfore it imports no less then the peace of these nations , that the Act of vniformity be not the rule of their Religion . Seing therfore it is the nature of Protestancy ( as of all other Religions , grounded vpon voluntary and privat interpretations of an obscure writing ) to breed disorders and confusion in all Common-wealths , wherin the liberty of interpreting that writing is not restrained by law ; and if restrained by law , the legislative power is opposed , and it's authority contemned as contrary to the law , and word of God ; and this opposition is waranted by the principles of protestancy , which exempt all reformed Christians from any conscientious obligation of submitting to Church or state Governors in matters of Religion ; supposing I say , this to be the nature of Protestancy , it is apparent how contrary it is to policy to enact or continue lawes against the profession of the Roman Catholick faith , which alone amongst all Christian Religions needeth not the support of human lawes , or of temporal statutes , to make it the Religion of the soule , or to setle the Common-wealth , as appeareth by the feare of Prelaticks to grant liberty of conscience to Papists . For the space of 1000. years did our English Ancestors profess the Roman faith , and in all that time they never had the least contention in the state about matters of Religion ; and in the space of these last 100. years there had bin more Rebellions , more deposing and murthering of Soveraigns in this one litle Island of great Britanny vpon the accompt of Protestancy , then hath bin since Christ's birth , in the whole world vpon the accompt of Popery . Wherfore seing that one of the differences between Popery and Protestancy is , that although Popery be co 〈…〉 y to liberty of opinion , to sensuality , and depraved inclinations , yet is it so plausible and popular , that Protestants ( notwithstanding the legal incapacities 〈◊〉 penalties which they lay vpon Papists ) are afraid it will spread over the whole Kingdom in a short time ( and therfore call it a growing Religion ) it is evident that it increaseth by the reasonableness and sanctity of it's principles , and without the help of law , or countenance of 〈◊〉 government ; nay against the greatest severity of law , and against the known inclination of the Soveraign , in such a measure , that the King and Parliament have thought of new remedies against the grouth therof : But Protestancy ( especialy the Prelatick ) notwithstanding all it's liberty of opinion , and pretended assurance of being saved by only faith without the trouble of pennance , fasting , or other mortifications of the flesh , with all the favor of the lawes , and countenance of the Government , can not be made the Religion of the state . Of three parts of England the one is Prelatick Protestant in their judgments : and the two parts which are not , will sooner become Papists then Prelaticks , Now whether it be sound policy to persecute the Roman Religion by law , which doth increase against law , and to endeavor to setle by law the Prelatick Religion , which so lately hath occasioned the abolishing of all lawes , we humbly submit to the consideration of them who sit at the helme . Besids , one of the greatest prejudices , that a Prince or Common-wealth can suffer , is to be deprived of loyal , conscientious , and able men's services , either in civil or military employments . By the penal and sanguinary Statuts , the King and Country deprive them-selves of many servitors of approved loyalty , wisdom , and eminent abilities , and not only deprive themselves of such servitors , but by virtue of legal incapacities set vpon Papists , enable every ambitious man , or discontended faction to asperse the King and his chief Ministers with favoring fo●●ooth Popery , if they do not exercise cruelty , and the rigor of 〈◊〉 sanguinary and penal Statuts against deserving persons , or 〈◊〉 least if they shew them any countenance , how-ever so meriting , and vsefull they have bin in the worst of times , and may prove to be again if this Protestant zeale should prevaile ; for it is alwayes the fore-runner of rebellion , and is now become so rash , that it attempteth to asperse my Lord Late Chancellor with favoring Popery , who is a pillar and pat●rn o● Protestancy . Perhaps his Lordship 's gentle nature , great wisdom , justice , and integrity , might incline him to thinck that lawes made by Queen Elizabeth for excluding the Stewards from the Crown , and for destroying that Religion and party wherby their title was supported , are now superfluous , and disrespectfull to the Royal Family , that Reigns ; but such as have the honor to know him best , assure us his L●p is no great friend to P●pists . Lastly , whosoever will call vnto mind the mis-chief which but a few members of the House of Commons of the long Parliament wrought against the late King , and will observe how popular others of the same stamp are now , and how apt the giddy multitude is , to be fool'd again into Rebellion by the like madd zeale against Popery , will be of opinion , that not any on thing can be of so great prejudice to the peace and prosperity of England , as the continuance of lawes , which ( if executed ) make the Nation and Government SVBSECT II. Queen Marys , and the Inquisitions severity against Protestancy , can be no President or excuse for the Statuts against Popery . I Will conclude this matter with answering the vulgar Objection made for vindication of the penal and sanguinary lawes of Queen Elizabeth against Roman Catholicks , grounded vpon a parity of the like lawes executed by Queen Mary and the Jnquisition against Protestants . The disparity will discover the fallacy , and dissolue the force of their argument . Neither Queen Mary , nor the Jnquisition made any lawes against Protestants ; they were made by the first Christian Emperours , and accepted by all Catholick Kings into the statuts of their Kingdoms , and confirmed by their Parliaments . The ancient Christian Soveraigns not only believed that the Roman faith was the Apostolick , but found by experience the same Roman Catholick faith had peaceable principles , agreabl●●o just Government , and therfore they enacted lawes of death , infamy , confiscation of goods &c. against all such as presumed to alter that doctrin , declaring such as contradicted the Tenets therof , to be Innovators and Hereticks . When protestancy began in England , they who preach't the new doctrin , ( being conscious of their own guilt , and of having incurred the penalties of these ancient Christian lawes , then in force against Innovators and Hereticks , and in particular against the marriage of Priests with Nuns proceeded other-wise . Zozomen hist. lib. 6. cap. 3. affirmeth how that the Christian Emperour Jovinian who was in course the third Emperour after Constantin the Great published an Edict that who allured a Nun to mariage should be therfore punished with the loss of his head . And this law is yet extant C●d . l. de Episcopis & C●●ricis ) But they I say petitio - to the Parliament of Edward ● . to have those 〈◊〉 repealed ( wherby you may see how they acknowledged their own doctrin was Heresy ) whervpon they wer● dispensed with to marry , and all the 〈◊〉 lawes against Her●tick● , and heresi●● ▪ were repealed ▪ Queen Mary succeeding , restored the ancient lawes that had bin repealed by King Ed●●●d 6. togeather with the ancient Religion , but she was not the Author of them , as Queen Elizabeth was of the penal and sanguinary statuts against Priests and Roman Catholicks , which never had bin heard of before her time in a Christian Kingdom , or Common-wealth . Jn like manner the Inquisition ma●● no new lawes against Protestants , neither do they sentence them to death ▪ they only declare , that they are Innovators of the ancient Catholick doctrin or Hereticks ; and then the secular Magistrats do execute the temporal lawes in fo●●e against such persons . If protestants had not found themselves guilty of heresy , why were they so solicitious to have the lawe● ▪ ●hat had bin ●●acted against hereticks , ( not lately , but during those ven●●●ble 〈◊〉 of the pri●●tive Church ) repealed ? why did 〈…〉 if their doct●●● was the ●●me with that of ●he ancient Fathers that lived in times wherin the Imperial lawes were made , and in force ? what needed they to except against lawes which had bin enacted to favour the doctrin of those Fathers with whom they pretend to agree ? Queen Mary therfore and the Inquisition , who proceeded ac● willing to those ancient ●●wes against protestants , did nothing but what all Christian and Catholick Emperours and Kings had don for the space of 1300. years against hereticks . But Queen Elizabeth took the quite contrary way ; she observed that according to the principles of Christianity , as also according to the ancient and modern lawes of England , her self could not enjoy the Crown ( having bin declared illegitimat by sundry Acts of Parliament never repealed ) nor the Stewards be excluded , they being the lawfull and immediat Heirs ; and because ▪ the Queen of Scots , from whom they derived their title , was a Catholick , Queen Elizabeth made her-self and England , Protestant ; that is , by Acts of Parliament , she declared that all the Catholick Emperours , Kings , and Churches , of the world for almost 1300. years , had bin superstitious and Idolatrous ; that the Bishop of Rome , was Anti-Christ ; the Catholick Clergy , Cheats ; the sea of Rome , the whore of Babylon ; spiritual Jurisdiction , a shee and secular supremacy ; the sacrifice of Christ's body and bloud , a blasphemy ; five of the seaven Sacraments , human invention and corrupt following of the Apostles ; Priesthood , and Episcopacy , nothing but a lay Ministery authorised vnder the Soveraign's great se●le ; all lawfull Priests , and Bishops , Traytors ; all Catholicks , Hereticks ; &c. And all these absurdities were made legal in England , to make her Father's marriage with Anne Bullen seem lawfull , wheras it had bin declared null and invalid by so many Parliaments of England , that her self durst not attempt an immediat and cleer repeale of Acts so notoriously inconsistent with the right that herself pretended ●o the Crown . T●at 〈…〉 and men who expected favors from her ) should so metamorphose sacred things into profane , Scripture into fancy , and illegitimacy into legitimacy , we do no● admire , neither is it strange that illiterat people after a Century of years , continuance and education in such a Religion , should be zealous in the maintenance therof , or that a Clergy , which hath no other livelyhood , nor hopes of promotion but by justifying these proceedings , should endeavor to continue her lawes against orthodox Christianity , and the known truth , for their own interest , are frailties incident to men ; but that the nobility and Gentry of England ( being so well vers'd in their own Chronikles , and in the Histories of other Nations ) that persons of so much witt , knowledg , and judgment , should not when they meet in Parliament , move and resolve to restore Christianity , and rectify so gross and vulgar mistakes , especialy since the family against whose succession the statuts had bin introduced , is restored to the Crown ; this 〈◊〉 , or oblivion , I say , of the English 〈◊〉 and nobility , i● hardly excusable . And if the 〈◊〉 will not be moved out of charity to their fellow subjects and 〈◊〉 , to abolish the sanguinary and penal Laws against Roman Catholicks , let them do it out of civility to the Royal Family , against whose party and Title so injust Laws were ●●acted . There is not therfore any thing 〈◊〉 more Queen Elizabeths penal statuts , then to compare 〈◊〉 wi●h Queen Mari●● and the Inquisitions proceedings against Protestants . It 's now time that we pass from the examination of protestant principles , to the discovery of the frauds and ●●●●●fications , wherwith the pr●●atick Clergy doth disguise them , and divert their flocks from reflecting vpon those sad effects which they have wrought , and must work , wheresoever they are 〈◊〉 the Religion of the sta●e . A TREATISE OF RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT THE THIRD PART . Containing a plain discovery of the Protestant Clergies frauds , and falsifications , wherby alone their doctrin is supported , and made credible . The conscience and conveniency of restoring or tolerating the Roman Catholick Religion ▪ demonstrated . SECT . I. That either the learned Protestant , or Roman Catholick Clergy are Cheats , and how every illiterat protestant may easily discern by wich of the two Clergie● he is cheated : and therfore is obliged vnder pain of damnation to examin so neer a concern , and to renounce the doctrin and communion of that Church wherin he is cheated . of the true Church being so conspicuous and manifest by such eminent and visible marks , Christ might well forbid the faithfull to communicat with Hereticks and Schismaticks , for that their conventicles 〈◊〉 never be mistaken for the whole , or even a part of the Catholick Church , vnless men ●ill be so simple as to take their ●are word when they say , Hic est Christus , aut illic : wheras if it were possible for learned men to be innocently mistaken , Christ's command had not bin obligatory ; for , in such ● case we were not bound to believe that Christ is rather in one Church then other , seing each Church had reason sufficient to excuse learned parties from schism , and ●●resy ? But it being impossible that God should command vs to believe on Congregation of Christians , and not believe others , that pretend also to be the true Church of Christ , without confirming the testimony and doctrin of that one Congregation , which he bids vs believe and preferr before the rest with such cleer signes of the truth , and so evident marks of Divine authority , that the others , compared therwith , can have no probability ; two things must be granted . 1. ( that the Catholi●● Church of Christ cannot be composed of all , or any dissenting Congregations . 2. That the one only Congregation which is the true and Catholick Church , can never be so eclipsed , but that it must appeare much more eminent in sanctity , miracles , conversion of Nations , and much more credible in it's testimonies , then any other . Wherfore we conclude that either the learned protestant clergy or the catholick must be cheats ; seing that notwithstanding the evident and eminent signes and marks of God's Church can not be found in both , or in any two Congregations dissenting in their doctrin and rule of faith , yet each of them make their illiterat flocks believe , that their own is the true Church of God , whervpon the signes and seales of his authority , and veracity do cleerly shine . No human art , or industry , if not born-out with more then ordinary and notorious impudencie , can pretend to discredit , or darken the spendor of true Miracles , Sanctity , Successi●● become Masters of the Comerce , as shall be proved . I hope these considerations will invite and incite them to examin which of both the Clergies , ( the Roman Catholick that petitions for , ●r the Prelatick Protestant that opposeth liberty of conscience ) are the cheats ? And ▪ that they may find it out withou● much trouble , I have thought sit to lett them know , there is not any one controversy between them and vs , which hath not bin handled in English , and argued to the full on both sides : now the summe of our disputes being this , whether the primitive Church was Roman Catholick , or rather Protestant , in the controverted points , as Praying to Saints , Transsubstantiation , Purgatory , worship of Images , the Canonicall letter , and sense of Scriptur● , &c. To decide the Controversy , each side quotes the words of Scripture , Councells and Fathers , because the true doctrine hath bin preserved , and recorded in these writings . Let him therfore that doubts of the sense of the Text , and of the sincerity of him that quotes it , compare the Authors words with the 〈…〉 he will infallibly find out who is the Cheat. For he that doth corrupt the words , or change the sense of Scrip●●re , Councells , and Fathers , doth not stick to the doctrin of the primitive Church ▪ And because I have spent some time ( both before and after my conversion to the Catholick faith ) in examining the falsifications , and frauds of Protestants , and their objections against Papists in the same kind , I may speak with more assurance then others who have not so much experience ; and do protest that I never thought it possible ( before I found it was so de facto ) that men pretending not only to the name of reformed Christianity , but to the Reality and Sanctity of an Episcopal caracter , and charge of soules , could be so vnconsiderable , vnworthy and vncharitable in matters of eternity , as I have ●ound the Protestant writers , and in particular the prelaticks of the Church of England . Let any who desires to satisfie his conscience or curiosity , pervse and compare either the books of Jevel and Harding ; or of Bishop Morton , and Father Pesons ▪ the nature or essence of a body ? Or whether quantity be a thing distinct from that which we call a corporeal substance . SVBSECT I. VVith what impudency and hipocrisy Bishop Ievell and other prelatick writers began to maintain the Protestancy of the Church of England ? And how they were blamed for appealing to antiquity by some of their own Brethren . TO manifest the impudency and hypocrisy , wherwith Prelatick Protestancy was broach't and imposed vpon the layty in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths reign , I will begin with Bishop Jevell's famous challenge , and his Seconds , that offered to maintain the primitive antiquity of Protestancy , and the novelty of Popery . His words are . As I sayd before , I say again , I am content to yeeld and subscribe , if any of our learned Adversaries , or if all the learned men that be alive , be able to bring one sufficient sentence out of any one Catholick Doctor or Father , or out of any old Generall Councell &c. for the space of 600. years after Christ , &c Protesting also that he affirmeth thus much , not as carried away with the heat of zeale , but as moved with the simple truth , least any of you should happily be deceived and think there is more weight on the other side then in conclusion will be found , &c. And then he brake into this vehement Apostrophe . O mercifull God! who could think that there could be so much wilfulness in the heart of man. Then exclaimes , O Gregory ! O Austin ! O Hierom ! O Chrysostom ! O Leo ! O Dionise ! O Anacl●tus ! O Calixtus ! O Paul ! O Christ ? Jf we be 〈◊〉 acknowledged the impossibility of defending the Protestant Religion by Tradition , or by any monuments o● examples from antiquity , or by the sayings of Fathers and Councells . Insomuch that Archbishop Whitgift in his defence against the reply of Cartwright pag. 472. & 473. doth not stick to say , that almost all the Bishops and learned Writers of the Greek and Latin Church ▪ for the most part , were spotted with the doctrin of free will ▪ oftner it , of invocation of Saints &c. And from thence infers that in no age since the Apostles time any company of Bishops held so perfect and so sound doctrin in all points as the Bishops of England at this day . And Mr. Fulk in his reionder to Bristow pag. 7. I confess that Ambrose , Austin , Hierom ( all three Fathers , to whom B. p Iewell appealed ) held invocation of Saints to be lawfull . And B. p Bale acknowledgeth that St. Gregory ( the first of Iewell 's chosen Iudges ) by his indulgences established pilgrimages to Images ; and that St. Leo ( an other of Ievell's Fathers ▪ ) allowed the worship of Images . And Doctor Humfrey , Iesuitismi part 1. rat . 5. pag. 626. cannot deny but that S. Gregory taught Transsubstantiation . And Mr. 〈◊〉 in his Papisto m●t , edit . 1606. pag. 143. saith , We are 〈◊〉 that the mystery of iniquity did work in S● ▪ Paul's time , and fell not a sleep so soon as Paul was dead &c. And therfore no mermail though pervsing Councells and Fathers , we find the print of the Popes feet . And Mr. Napper in his Treatise vpon the Revelation dedicated to King Iames ▪ pag. 68. & 145. affirmeth that Popery or the Anti-christian Kingdom did continue 1260. years vniversaly without any debatable contradiction ▪ The Pope and his Clergy , during that time possessing the outward visible Church . So that it was not one or two Fathers , or Councells , but all Christendom which professed the Roman Catholick saith , for these 1●00 . years past . And even Mr. Whitaker himself , lib. 6. contra Duraeum pag. 123. ( notwithstanding his vndertaking to maintain Ievells challenge and bold assertion ) was forc'd at length to submit , but by a profane expression , saying , that the Popish Religion is a patch't coverlet of the Fathers errors sowed together . have them read their English falsified Scripture ( the subject of controversies , and support of errors ) and will not permit them to pervse the true authentick translation , and all this to the end nothing but fraud and fancy may be the rule of the Protestant faith . These and all other the like observations which can not but occurr to them who frequent their Churches , or company , must needs induce men to suspect the weakness of their cause , and the guilt of their conscience , though there had bin no evidences , that they are Falsifiers . But seing their are as many evidences against them , as there are Chapters in Catholick Books of controversies , and that the Books are easily had , and vnderstood , I see not how any Protestant , how ever so illiterat , can be excused from eternall damnation , by pretending the integrity of his Clergy , or his own insufficiency to examin their sincerity . When many accuse a man of high Treason , and offer to prove it to his face , not only by sundry honest and legal wittnesses but vnder his own hand writing , it would be censured treachery or great carlesness in the Ministers of state , to slight such an accusation and evidence , though the person accused , vntill then ▪ had bin trusted , and reputed a loyal subject : This is our case with the Protestant writers : we have no quarrel against them but Religion ; we charge them in publick writing with the highest Treason ( the murthering of the soules of Soveraigns and subjects ) with corrupting God's word ; with rebelling against the Divine authority , so authentickly appearing in the Roman Catholick Church . And these Treasons we offer to prove face to face , not only by legal witness , but by their Bibles and Books . We have no grudge to them but this only of damning soules , by treacherous dealing ; and desire that so important an accusation may come to a publick hearing , If their interest , and industry can divert the layty from so great a concern , that layty must be treacherous to themselves , and censured very carless of their own salvation . And to the end it may not be objected that these are are but 〈◊〉 words , I have resolved to descend to particular crimes . I 〈◊〉 the persons , their Books , I quote their own words , I prove them to be no innocent mistakes , but wilfull and wicked falsifications and fraud● ; not committed by one , or few 〈…〉 of Religion against vs ▪ not in our time ▪ but alway●● 〈…〉 but the whole body in their 〈…〉 only by connivance and permission , but also by contrivance● ▪ and positive approbation , not only petty 〈◊〉 differences , but of ancient condemned heresies , which the Protestant writers maintain as orthodox doctrin , notwithstanding that 〈…〉 , S. Hierom , and other Doctors of God's Church censure the opinions as notorious heresies , and the Authors as hereticks . This is the summe of the Accusations , contained in this third part of our Treatise : and if we be not mistaken , deserues a Trial , as well for the satisfaction of privat 〈◊〉 conscience , as 〈◊〉 for the probability there is of publick conveniency , it being very improbable , that I , or any man who pretends to the least degree of worth , or witt , would charge with so many particular grievous crimes , so numerous and powe●●ull a party as the Protestant Clergy is , without 〈…〉 undeniable evidences . If the Protestant Clergy be found guylty , besides the salvation of soules ( which will be obtained by renouncing their errors , and is that we all ought principaly to ayme at ) these Nations will be happy in this world by their revenues . If they be not guilty , they and their Religion will gain great credit , and I nothing but the infamy of being a notorious Jmpostor . I know not what others may think of me , but I shall never think that any other can be so witless and wicked , as to take so much paines as I have don in composing , and be at so great charge of publishing this Treatise , without manifest profe● of the truth therof ; for if my allegations be not true I can have no further design , or hopes , but of infamy to my self , and of honor , and credit to my Adversaries , and an addition of strength to the cause I do impugne : all which must follow , and fall vpon me , if the learned Protestant Clergy be not proved to be as great Cheats , as I pretend they are . But it s strange what deepe impressions education doth make in mens minds , and how partial and passionat these Nations are tendred by Protestancy . They will not believe that their Protestant Writers are wilfull Falsifiers , as for example that Doctor Jeremy Taylor ( a man that hath writ so many spiritual Books foorsooth , and rules of Morality ) is guilty of maintaining the Protestant Religion by aboue 150. shamefull vnexcusable corruptions and falsifications , in his litle Dissuasive . And when he , the Author , his Jrish Convocation , and the English Protestant Church , that Applauder of the work , are challenged in print by sundry Catholick Writers to make good any one of those falsifications , all the world ( besides Protestants ) observe they have not a word to answer ; and by consequence themselves must now confess , that their Religion is damnable , seing it can not be otherwise maintained then by falshood ; notwithstanding J say there can be no hopes of salvation in such a Church , no tollerable excuse for such imposturs , yet the writers , and writings are cryed vp , and still in credit , because they maintain that mistaken Reformation wherin Protestant ▪ have bin brought vp . And though this particular case of Doctor Taylors ( one of the ablest Protestant Divines now living ) is sufficient to demonstrat the falshood of all Protestants , and Protestancy in general , yet for information and proofe , that his ●rrors fell not by chance from his pen , and that he hath not changed the arguments , but is constant to the ancient falsifying Method , the only way of all his Predecessours the Protestant Writers , I will give particular instances of the most renowned from Luther to Taylor himself , that is from the very first to the last . But before I set down the particulars of Protestant falsifications I will prove in general , that the Roman Catholicks can not be prudently suspected of the like practises , and that Protestants are cleerly convicted therof . SECT . II. That there can be no reason to suspect the sincerity of the Roman Catholick Clergy in matters of Religion ; and that Protestancy can not be maintained otherwise then by impostures ; wherof there are such evidences , that to give the Protestant Clergy any credit in matters of their Religion , is a sufficient cause of damnation . SVBSECT I. THE first part of this assertion 〈◊〉 easily proved ; because that which may prudently induce men to suspect the sincerity of any Clergy in proposing the Mysteries of Christian Religion , and the true sense of Scripture , is temporal interest viz , when by changing and corrupting the ancient 〈◊〉 , the Clergy 〈◊〉 obtain honours , and conveniences , wher of they might despaire if they are raised aboue the meaness or mediocrity of their birth and fortune : such were the first Protestant-Bishops , and Reformers , not one of them that J can learn of , was born a Gentleman ; neither could they expect to be raised to any great employment either in Church or state , vnless they had embroyled both , and fish't in troubled waters ; and such also were they who preten●ed to reform the ancient doctrin in former ages . If we search into the Ecclesiasticall history , we shall find that Hereticks always devised novelties , to make them-selves considerable by dividing the Church into schisms and factions ( according to the vulgar saying Divide & impera ) after that they had bin disapointed of some dignity whervnto they pretended ; and therfore Saint Augustin ( lib , de Pastoribus cap. 8. ) doth attribute all heresies to pride . Theobutes one of the first hereticks , having bin refused a Bishoprick ( saith Aegisippus ) began to corrupt and perturbe the Church . After him Simon Magus broach't his damnable doctrines , because the Apostles would not sell to him the spiritual caracter of Episcopacy . Act. 8. Then followed Valentinus , of whom Tertullian gives this testimony to those of his Sect , Valentinus expected to be a Bishop for his wit and Eloquence , but being postponed , he broke from the rule of the Church , as ambitious and revengefull minds vse to do . The same saith St. Epiphanius ( haeres . 42. ) of Marcion ; Theodoret of Montanus , Novatian , Arius , and Aerius , Socrates of Salbatius ; Waldensis of Wacleff ; the same we say of Luther , Calvin , Cranmer &c. But the Roman Catholick Clergy are commonly persons of quality that are not put to the shifts of hereticks , that is , of inventing new doctrin ; their birth helps to raise them to the dignity of the Church , and none can be made a secular Priest , that hath not a patrimony wherwith to subsist . Besides , it is an acknowledged difference between the two controverted Religions , that the Roman Catholick is so ancient , that even they who charge it with novelty , can not tell when it began ; and grant that it hath bin at least these 1000. years generaly embraced by the visible Church , as the very same which Christ and his Apostles taught ; the Protestant Reformation on the contrary , is so modern , that they who brag of it's antiquity , can go no further then Luther , and Calvin , or Cranmer . Hence it must be concluded , that as in temporal Common-wealths , they can not be questioned as Usurpers , or suspected as Cheats , whose possession and succession is so ancient that no memory occurreth to the contrary ; and moreover , shew publick records , and sentences of the Courts of Judicature , sign'd with the great seale of the Soveraing in confirmation of their Estates , and Titles , against divers pretender● in sundry ages 〈◊〉 in the Roman Catholick Church , the doctrin and dignity of our Bishops having bin derived 〈…〉 , and tradition , 〈…〉 the contrary , and having bin confirm●● 〈…〉 of general Councels , yet extant vpon reco●d 〈…〉 hereticks , and signed with God's great seal● , Miracles ; there can be no objection , but obstinacy , against the truth therof ; nor no prudent ground to suspect the integrity , and sincerity of our Clergy , in maintaining as well their doctrin , as the revenues which were bestowed vpon them for supporting that doctrin and their Ministery . Men who have such vndeniable and publick evidences , to shew for the truth of their doctrin , and for their right to the temporalities of the Church , can not be pres●●ed to forge or falsify scripture , records , Councells , or Fathers , for maintaining their right or reverences : they need no such practises , which would rather prejudice , then profit their cause . To what end should Catholick Bishops forge records of their Consecration , when their very Adversaries confess the validity , and legality therof to be so authentik , that their chief study is , how to derive their own Caracter from ours ! To what purpose should we falsify the ancient Councells and Fathers , when all the Protestant writers , who have any conscience or knowledge , grant they are for us ? And 〈◊〉 such of them as are vers'd in antiquity , will not have their reformation tryed by Fathers and Councells , but by Scripture alone . Why should we corrupt the letter of Scripture , when our Adversaries grant our latin vulgata , to be the most true and authentik Translation therof , as we have proved heretofore ? Why should we alter the Roman Catholik sense of Scripture , that is as ancient as the letter , and delivered to us by the same testimony and tradition , as God's true meaning ? But the protestant Clergy , who are but vpstarts by brith and doctrin , can not be great in Church or state otherwise then by inventing and promoting new religions , and to that end do corrupt the letter , and change the sense of Scripture , which was delivered to the primitive Church : pretending that the true Church of Christ was invisible , and that the protestant evidences and miracles perished by reason of the iniquity of the times , and the persecution of Popes . But let us come to the triall , and to particular instances of their false dealing . SVBSECT II. Of Edward 6. Protestant and prelatick Clergies frauds falsifications and formes of ordination , their hypocrisy , incontinency , Atheism &c And whether it be fit to terme them , and others like them , Cheats , when they are convicted of willfull false dealing in matters of Religion ? CIvility is a branch of Charity , and therfore ought to be extended to all men : but if a man did observe either in Church or Court , that a disguised Cut-purse o● Cut-throate doth great mischief , I am of opinion the observer is bound in conscience to advertise both Church and Court of his vilanies , and without any ceremony to tell every one down right , such a person that you take for a nobleman , or Gentleman , is a Cheat , and a Murtherer , therfore trust him not , avoyd his company . Jf the Protestant Clergy teach , and countenance false and damnable doctrin , they are Cut-purses and Cut-throaths ; they exhaust the treasure of these Kingdoms , and cheat the King and his Subjects of a very great revenue , They and writ a book in defence of the real presence ; in Edward the sixts time he professed protestancy , and writ against the real presence , both which books Bishop Bonner produced in judgment against him : In the begining of this yong King's reign he seemed to be a Lutheran , but in the latter end therof , a Zuinglian ; and altered accordingly the Common prayer booke which himself had composed ; and changed the 39. Articles of the Church , according to the humor of that faction which prevailed in the state . He made no more conscience of condemning to death An Ascue for denying the real presence an . 31. of K. Henry 8. then of professing himself to be of her belief in the reign of K. Edward 6. and pressed that yong King very importunely to seale a warrant for burning of her Mayd Ioane of Kent ( alias Ioane Knell ) for that she denyed Christ took flesh of the B. Virgin. But Joane Knell ( when Cranmer pronounced sentence against her ) reproached him for his inconstancy in religion ; telling that he condemned not long before An Ascue her mistress for a peece of bread , and now condemned her self for a pecce of flesh . And as he was now come to believe the first which he then had condemned , so would he come in time to believe the second &c. And 〈◊〉 it is to be observed that Cranmer persuaded the King to sign the warrant against Ioane Knell when there was no law in England to put any one to death for heresy , because it was after that all penall statuts against heretiks had bin repealed , and that favor was granted at Cranmer's and the first reformers , own request , and solicitations , not daring to profess or preach their novelties before they might be secured by such a repeal from the severity of the lawes . We have seen heretofore how he divorced K. Henry from Q. Catherin by his own authority , and married him to An Bullen , And afterwar●●●clared in Parliament that An Bullen was not true wife to 〈◊〉 King ; how he married him to An of Cleve , and with in the compass of one yeare came again to the Parliament , and sayd she was never true wife to his Majesty in again . And this was objected by Nicolas Heath Archbishop of York and Lord Chancellor of England in his speech to the Parliament against the bringing in of Protestancy 1. Eliz. which speech ( saith learned Knot in his comment vpon Brerely p. 87. ) was read by him who told this to Knot , and had seen divers of King Edward ● . service books , some with ( is ) some with ( signifieth ) and some with a blanck in the place . Lastly , how could Cranmer , how could they tha●●oyn'd with him , be ignorant that th●●r reformed doctrin was plain heresy , seing they kn●w it was notorious novelty , and that many points therof had bin condemned as hereticall by the primitive Catholick Church , and by lawes of the first Christian Emperours ? How could they excuse the abolishing of the Sacrifice of the Mass by their Common prayer , and the caracter of Priesthood and Episcopacy , by devising a new form of Ordination , contaiing 〈◊〉 a syllable expressing the function either of Priest or Bishop ▪ contrary to all formes and Ritualls both of the Greek , Latin ▪ and all other Christian Churches . 〈◊〉 though their Successours ( since his Majesties restauration ) have acknowledged the invalidity of their Protestant formes of ordination by amending them in their new Book authoris'd by the late ▪ Act of Vniformity ; for the forme of ordaining a Bishop is corrected thus , Receive the holy Ghost for the Office and work of a Bishop &c. The forme of ordaining a Priest , thus , Receive the holy Ghost for the Office of a Priest &c. yet this correcting comes too late for the past Ordinations , and vnseasonably for the future also , because none can give a priestly or Episcopal caracter which himself hath not , and though the forme thus altered in their late edition be valid in it self , yet can it not be validly applyed by laymen , or ( which is the same ) by Ministers ordained by an invalid forme . What could move the present prelatik Church of England to change their form of ordaining Priests and Bishops after a hundred years and above , but the evidence , and acknowledgment of it's nullity ? espetially if we consider with what in preaching is extoll'd by Fox ; and yet if you observe his proofs therof , you will find that he was rather , a Comedian then a Christian in the pulpit ; where in steed of solid discourses deduced from Scriptures , and Fathers , he entert●●●●d his Audience with scurilous jests , and some times grounded his Sermons vpon a play at cards , and kept great stir with the King of Clubs , the Ase of harts , and the like foolish ●taff● good enough for the Heresies he displayed ; other times 〈◊〉 raysed at the ●ass , calling the real presence the Maribone 〈◊〉 ●nd this so ridicolously , that none but children applauded 〈◊〉 profane way of preaching ; by what Fox himself con●ess●● 〈◊〉 his way , you may fancy him to be another Hugh P●●●● . But from his Sermons let vs go to his virtues . Notwithstanding his great zeale in preaching and promoting the 〈…〉 recanted his doctrin therof twice , once before Card●●●l 〈…〉 second time before Arch-Bishop Warham , and others 〈◊〉 K. Henry 8. declared against the Popes supremacy ▪ 〈◊〉 , at the procurement of his Vicar Generall 〈…〉 of his Phisi●●an D. r Butte● was named to the Bishoprick of 〈◊〉 but soon deprived therof by the same 〈◊〉 ▪ as an vnguilty and profane fellow , his impiety was proved by many instances , wherof one was , eating of flesh on good friday , without any pretext of sickness . After King Henry 8. 〈◊〉 he sided with Hooper and Rogers for Puritanisme against Cranmer and Ridley , who were then great stiklers for the prelatick disciplin , therby to domineer over the Ministers who had bin in Germany ; and so would Latimer also , if they both had not opposed his restitution to the Bishoprick of Worces●●● . Thus kept vnder by his two great Adversaries , he 〈◊〉 thought by the Dutchess of Somersett a likely person ( in hopes of recovering his ancient dignity and reverences ) to inveigh against her Brother in law the Lord Admirall ( whom she mortaly hated ) and to reprehend publikly in the pulpit his ambition , charging him also with dangerous designes against his Majesty and the Protector ; and though the Lord Admiral to be restored to Worcester ; but after Ridley was in possession of the sea of London , he laught at Latimer , and ioyn'd with 〈◊〉 to keep him humble without Bishoprick or benefice , 〈◊〉 hath bin sayd . After K. Edward 6. death ▪ Ridley was very 〈◊〉 against Q. Mary , and preach't against her title , adding ●ith all she was so earnest a Papist , that she refused to heare 〈…〉 to her ; which injury notwithstanding she would have ●ardon'd him , if he had given any signes of true repen●●●●● 〈◊〉 a fair triall , and confutation of his heresies , he 〈◊〉 of a bag of powder which his Brother in law delivered 〈…〉 at the stake , the sooner to be dispatch't of his torment ; 〈◊〉 Fox saith the design took no effect , his martyrdom was 〈◊〉 , which happened by accident , and that he cryed 〈…〉 , and desired the people to let the fire 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 of this man●s spirit by a part of his farewell to the 〈…〉 London , set down by Fox thus . Harken 〈…〉 of Babylon , thou wicked limb of Anti-christ , 〈…〉 sta●est thou down , and makest havock of 〈◊〉 Prophet's 〈◊〉 &c. Thy God which is thy work of thy words , and whom thou sayest thou hast power to make ; that thy d●●f and dumb God , I say , will not in deed , nor can not make 〈◊〉 to escape the revengfull hand of the high and almighty God &c. O thou wh●rish Drabbe , thou shalt never escape . In steed of my farewell to thee now , I say , Fye vpon thee , fye vpon thee filty Drabbe , 〈◊〉 all thy false Prophets . Of Hooper , Rogers , Poynet , Bale , and Co●erdales hypocrisy , and impiety . JOhn Hooper ( by Fox his relation ) was a Priest in Oxford , in the daies of King Henry 8. ( infected with Lutheranisme by books that came from Germany ) and lived in when he was arraigned for his heresies , he spoke to he Lord Chancellor and Iudges so grossy , carnaly , and absurdly of his marriage with the Burgundian wench , that his 〈…〉 , though he se●s not down his words , yet acknowledgeth that the whole Court cryed tha●● vpon him , calling him beast , &c. we shall heare more of this man in the following story of his Camerade Rogers . John Rogers was a priest also ( saith Iohn Fox ) in the time of King Henry 8. when Luther's doctrin began first to be 〈◊〉 in England , which he having read , and finding himself by the spirit therof inclined to some novelties in Religion , and to marry , he went into Flanders , and there became Chaplyn ●● the English Merchants in Antverp : there also he fell acquainted with VVilliam Tyndal , and Miles Coverdale , two other English Priests of the same humor , and retired thither for the 〈◊〉 ●nd ; Rogers and Coverdale , assisted Tyndal in falsifying the Scripture , and setting forth his English Translation , afterwards condemned by Act of Parliament , for erronious , false , and wick●● ▪ After that Tyndal was burned in Flanders , in the yeare 1536. Rogers repaired to VVittemberg in Saxony , to live with Martyn Luther , by whom he was confirmed in his Religion , and provided of a duch wife , which , as Fox testifyeth , brought him forth no less then eight children in very few years ; with which load of wife and children after both King Henry 8. and Luther were dead ( for they dyed both with in the compass of one yeare ) Roger● returned into England toge●ther with Friar Martyn Bucer , and his wench ; resolved to accommodat them-selves in all points to the Protector 's will , and to any Religion that should be established by the laws of the land ; and accordingly they forsook the Doctrin of their old Master Luther , and embraced that of Zwinglius , as being the more favored and countenanced by the Protector . Both Hooper and Rogers came with hopes of ruling the Church of England , because they thought them-selves more learned in the Reformation then Cranmer , and Ridley , who As Ridley had bin intruded into Bonners Bishoprick of London , so Poynet was thrust into Gardiners of Winchester , ● better Scholler ( saith Heylin pag. 161. ) then a Bishop . He had taken a wi●e in Edward 6. time , and not content 〈◊〉 ( du●ing her life ) married another , whose Husband 〈◊〉 Butcher actualy living ; whether she had left her husband for some discontent , or disease , I do not know ; but between the Bishop and the Butcher became a great suit in law about the woman , that the Bishop kept and claimed as his wife ; but at length he was forced to restore her to the Butcher ; which Bishop Gardiner hearing from some of the Lords , he replyed that their Lordships ( he hoped ) would command Poynet to restore him his Bishoprick , as they had ordered him to restore his wife to the Butcher : It seems in those primitive times of Protestan●● , the purity of the reformed doctrin was practised in mar●●ages , as wel as in other matters ; for though Bishop Poynet , received not the benefit of that Protestant liberty which he sued for , and his Lordship knew was due by the principles of that Religion , yet it was granted to Sir Ralph Sadler , by common consent of the English Church and Parliament : for one Mathew Barrow , having bin through jealousy driven beyond seas for some time , his wife married her Lover Sir Ralph , the husband returns and claims his wife , but sentence was given in favour of Sir Ralph Sadler , who was declared to be her lawfull husband , and Mathew Barrow lest at liberty to marry whom ●e pleased : This decree is agreable to the principles of Protestancy , as may be seen in this Treatise ( part . 2. Sect. 2. ●num . 3. ) neither is it credible so learned a Protestant Bishop as Poynet , would contest in a legal way with the Butcher , for a thing not allowed by the reformed Church , wherof he was so eminent a Prelat , and one of the first English Reformers . John Bale Bishop of Ossory was a Carmelite friar , who hearing of the liberty which the Protestant Reformation gave to Priests and Religious persons to marry , forsook his Monastical and Catholick profession , and made a formal abjuration of the Bible , condemned by act of Parliament , and Fox ( pag. 1427. ) sets down the proclamation of K. Henry 8. and the publick instrument of the Bishops , prohibiting again ( an . 1●46 ) Tyndal and Coverdales Translation of the new Testament ; notwithstanding all this , Coverdale the corrupter of the Bible , was by Cranmer's means made the Corrector of his own and Tyndal's Translation ( which went by the name of the Bible of Mathew . ) And he set out the same again , with litle or no alteration of the Text , and it was called the Bible of the large Volume , with which work the honest party of the Clergy , were as much offended aswith Mathew's Bible , as being the same or at least no less fraudulent and fals , and yet it was not corrected in K. Henry 8. dayes , and was imposed vpon England as authentick Scripture , in K. Edward 6. and Q. Elizabeths reigns ; and is that in substance which was reprinted by order of the Convocation an . 1562. by some caled the Bishops Bible . This Bible thus caled , as also of the large Volume , was printed first at Paris ( Fox relates the story ) That some heresies having bin discovered therin , Coverdale was sent for , who did oversee the printing of his own and Tyndal's work ; but having some warning of what would follow , saith Fox , he with other English , posted away from Paris as fast as they could , to save them-selves , leaving behind them all their Bibles , of the great Volume , &c. but after they had recovered some of the same Bibles , which the Lieutenant Criminal of Paris had not burnt with the rest ( moved therunto by covetousness ) they reprinted the same Bible in London , but yet not without great loss and trouble , for the hatred of the Bishops , namely Stephen Gardiner and his fellows , who mightily did stomack and malign the printing therof . This is Fox his own story of the English Translation of Scripture , which Protestants hold to be the true word of God , though it was burnt as fals and heretical in France , and condemned as such by act of Parliament in England , and two Thousand falsifications discovered in the new Testament 〈◊〉 by learned ▪ 〈◊〉 Bishop of D●resme . Sanders ●●counts how Miles Coverdale hearing that the University of Oxford was much bent against 〈◊〉 reformation in Edward 6. 〈◊〉 ▪ and that 〈…〉 ●aught at Coverdale for keeping 〈…〉 have bin his wife ; he came to confute and to conv●●● 〈◊〉 famous University , and there in the pulpit told his audience , he would 〈◊〉 of the Controversie of the Real presence : having therfore first vehemently inveighed against such as murmured at his keeping a woman ▪ which he termed va● 〈◊〉 , he added , that he ought to be credited in the dispute of the Eucharist , for that having inquired into the diversity of opinions , and examined the Catholicks Transubstantiation , the Lutherans Impa●ation , the Zuingli●ns ●●re figurative presence , the Calvinists addition to 〈…〉 certain efficacy , and energy of grace , he could deli●er 〈◊〉 them what he had found out at last after 14 years stud● 〈…〉 matter : having spoken thus in very good earnest , most then thought he was distracted , for non in his 〈◊〉 could seriously endeavor to persuade Christians to build their 〈◊〉 vpon a f●llows fancy 〈◊〉 confessed , him-self knew not what to believe for the space of 14 years vntill that present ▪ wherin at length he professed to take a new way of his own , different from all others that vntill then had bin professed either by Roman Catholiks , or others . But if Protestants take his fals Translation for 〈◊〉 word of God , with 〈◊〉 doubt they will not scruple to take his fantastical opinion for the sense of Scripture , and rely ●pon his fond Interpretation of these words , This is my body . These were the prime Apostles and first Founders of the Protestant Church of England ▪ this the Scripture which they delivered to the people for God's word ; These the men whose sincerity the English Clergy doth now defend , imitat , and rely ●pon ; men , who to enjoy Benefices and women , persuaded silly soules to become the Devill 's Martyrs in Q. Maries dayes ; making them believe that Tindal and Coverdales fal● Translations were the very word of God , and every on 's privat Interpretation the right sense of the holy Ghost . This the poore people erroneously and obstinatly maintained , after that such of these their Masters as could escape , fled begond the seas , and left their Proselits in the lurch , when them-selves could not any longer enjoy Bishopricks and wenches here in England , Ambition and sensuality led them into novelties , which most of them-selves knew to be heresies , though once ingaged therin ( according to the custom of hereticks ) many refused to recant , and would needs cast them-selves into the fire , to dye , forsooth , with their honour which they vainly imagined lay at the stake , and could not be preserved , if them-selves were not tyed to a stake . Fox tells us how Laurence Sanders a Priest was so fond of his wench and child , that seing his litle son , rejoyced more to have such a boy , then if 2000. pounds were given him &c. saying what man fearing God , would not lose his life present , rather then by prolonging it here , he should adjudge this boy to be a bastard , his wife a whore , and him-self a whore-monger , yea ( saith he ) if there were no other cause for which a man of my estate should lose his life , yet who would not give it to avouch this Child to be legitimat , and his mothers marriage to be lawfull and holy ; vpon such motives was the obstinacy of this Clergy grounded in dying . How litle the poore Tinkers , Tanners , Coblers , Spinsers , and simple women could say for the errors in maintenance wherof they would needs dye , you may guess by their incontinent Priests , and their Patriarch , and Apostle Cranmer's answers for his new saith ; which I will copy out of Fox himself , who excuseth the weakness and absurdity therof , by saying ( pag. 2053. ) that he believes the Notary ( who was Bishop Ievell chosen by Cranmer him-self ) did conceale the Arch-bishop's answers , to favour the sea of Rome . But then Fox ought to have supplied Ievell● ' defect , and have shewed how Cranmer might , ( and probably did ) answer the popish arguments ; and not con●●●t him-self with telling us that the reporter leaveth the 〈◊〉 raw and weak on Doctor Cranmer's side . Thus then saith Fox . SVBSECT IV. Talke between Doctor Martyn and the Arch-Bishop , related by Fox . DOctor Martin . You have told here a long glorious tale &c. you say you have once sworn to K. Henry 8. against the Pope's Iurisdiction , and ther●●●e you may never forsweare the same &c. Here Mr. Cranmer I will ask you a question or two ; what if you made a● Oath to a Harlot to live with her in continual adultery , ought you to keep it ? Cranmer . I think no. Doctor Martyn . Herod did swear what soever his har●●● asked of him , he would give her , and he gave her Iohn Baptist's head &c. Then Mr. Cranmer , you can no less confess but that you ought not to have conscience of every oath , but if it be just , lawfull , and advisedly taken . Cranmer . So was my oath . Martyn . That is not so ; for first it was vnjust , for it tended to the taking away of an other man's right : It was not lawfull , for the law● of God and the Church were against it . Besides , it was not voluntary , for every man and woman were compell'd to take it . Cranmer . It pleaseth you to say so . Martyn . Let all the world be Judge , But Sir , you that pretend to have such a conscience to break an Oath , I pray you did you never swear and break the same ? Cranmer . I remember not . Martyn . J will help your memory ; did you never swear obedience to the Sea of Rome ? Cranmer . In deed I did once swear vnto the same . Martyn . Yea that you did twice , as appeareth by records and writings here ready to be shewed . Cranmer . But I remember J saved all by a Protestation that I made , by the Councell of the best learned men I could get at that time . Martyn . Hearken good people what this man saith , he made a protestation on day , to keep never a whit of that which he would swear the next day : was this the part of a christian man ? But will you have the truth of the matter ? King Henry 8. even then meant the lamentable change , which after you see came to pass : and to further his pittifull proceedings from the divorcement of his most lawfull wife , to the detestable departing from the vnity of Christ's Church , this man made the foresaid protestation ; and on the other side he letted not to make two solemne oathes quite contrary , and why ? for otherwise by the lawes and Canons of this Realm , he could not aspire to the Archbishoprick of Canterbury . Cranmer . I protest before you all , there was never man came more vnwilling to a Bishoprick then I did to that : In so much that when King Henry 8. did send for me in post , that J should come over , I prolong'd my Iourney by seaven weeks at the least , thinking that he would be forgetfull of me in the mean time . Martyn . You declare well by the way , that the King took you to be a man of a good conscience , who could not find within all his Realm , any man that would set forth his strange attempts , but was inforced to send for you in post to come out of Germany ; what may we conjecture therby , but that there was a compact between you ( being then Queen An's Chaplyn ) and the King : give me the Archbishoprick of Canterbury , and J will give you licence to live in adultery . Cranmer . You say not true . Martyn . Let your protestation joyned with the rest of your Talks , give Judgment . 〈…〉 . Of that your execrable perjury , and his coloured , and too shamfully suffered adultery , 〈◊〉 heresy and all mis-chief to this Realm . And now to answer 〈…〉 of your Oration wherin you bring 〈◊〉 God's 〈…〉 you have it on your side , and no man ells , and 〈◊〉 the Pope hath devised a new Scripture contrary to the Scriptures of God , you play here in as the Pharisees did , which cryed alwais Verbum Domini , Verbum Domini , when they mean nothing so . This bettereth not your case , because you say , you have God's word for you : for so Basilides , and Photinus the Hereticks sayd , that they had God's word to maintain there Heresy . So Nestorius , so Macedonius , so Pelagius , and briefly all the Hereticks that ever were ; yea and so the Devill being Father of Heresies , alleadged God's word for him , saying , Scriptum est , it is writen : so sayd he to Christ mitt● to deorsum , cast thy self downward , saith he ; and so taught you to cast all things downward , down with the Sacrament , down with Muss , down with the Armes of Christ ; and vp with a Lion , and a Dog , down with Abbyes , down with Chauntrers , down with Hospitalls and Colledges , down with fasting and prayer , yea down with all that is good and Godly &c. And therfore tell us not , you have God's word , for God had given us by his word a mark to know that your teaching proceeded not of God , but of the Devill &c. For Christ sayd there shal come against his Church r●vening wolves , and false Apostles : And by their fruits ye shall know them . What be their fruits St. Paul declareth , After the flesh they walk in concupiscence , and vncleaness they contemn Potentates &c. Whether these be not the fruits of your Ghospel , I referr me to this worshipfull Audience ; whether the sayd Ghospel began not with perjury , proceeded with adultery , was maintained with heresy , and ended in Conspiracy . Now Sir , two points more I marked in your raging discourse that you made here : the one against the holy Sacrament , the other against the Pope's Iurisdiction , and the Authority of the Sea Apostolick . Touching the first , you say you have God's word with you , yea and all Doctors . I would here ask but one Question of you : whether God's word be contrary to it self , and whether the Doctors teach doctrin contrary to them-selves , or no ▪ For , you Mr. Cranmer , have taught in this High Sacrament of the Altar three contrary doctrins , and you pretend in every one Verbum Domini the word of God. Cranmer . Nay I taught but two contrary doctrins in the same . Martyn . What doctrin taught you when you condemned Lambert the Sacramentary in the King's presence in Whitehall ? Cranmer . I maintained then the Popish doctrin . Martyn . That is to say the Catholick and Universal doctrin of Christ's Church ; and how when King Henry dyed ? did you not translate Justus Jonas Book ? Cranmer . J did so . Martyn . Then there you defended an other doctrin touching the Sacrament : by the same token , that you sent to Lynne your printer , that wheras in the first print there was an affirmative that is to say , Christ's body realy in the Sacrament , you sent then to your printer to put in a Not , wherby it came miraculously to pass , that Christ's body was clean conveyed out of the Sacrament . Cranmer . I remember there were two prints of my said Book , but where the same ( Not ) was put in , I can not tell . Martyn . Then from a Lutheran you became a Zwinglian , which is the vilest heresy of all in the high mystery of the Sacrament , and for the same heresy you did help to burn Lambert the Sacramentary , which you now call the Catholick faith and God's word . Cranmer . I grant that then J believed otherwise then J do now , and so J did vntill my Lord of London Doctor Ridley did conferr with me , and by sundry persuasions and authorities of Doctors , ●●●ew me quite from my opinion . Martyn . Now Sir as ●ouching the last part of your Oracion , you denyed that the Pope's Holiness was supreme head of the Church of Christ. Cranmer . J did so . Martyn . Who say you 〈…〉 head ? Cranmer . Christ. Martyn . But whom hath Christ 〈◊〉 here in earth his Vic●● and head of his Church ? Cranmer . No body . Martyn . Ah , why ●ould you not King Henry this when you made him supreme head ? and now no body is . This is treason against his own person , as you then made him . Cranmer . I mean not but every King in his own Realm and Dominion is supreme head , and so was he supreme head of the Church of Christ in England . Martyn . Is this always true ? and was it ever so ? Cranmer . Jt was so . Martyn . Then what say you by Nero : he was the mightiest Prince vpon the earth after Christ was ascended . Was he the head of Christ's Church ? Cranmer . Nero was Peter's head . Martyn . I ask whether Nero was head of the Church or no ? If he were not , it is falls that you said before , that all Princes be and ever were heads of the Church within their Realms . Cranmer . Nay , it is 〈◊〉 for Nero was head of the Church , that is , in worldly respect of the temporal bodies of men , of whom the Church consisteth : for so he beheaded Peter and the Apostles . And the Turck too is head of the Church of Turky . Martyn . Then he that beheaded the heads of the Church , and crucified the Apostles , was head of Christ's Church ; and h● that was never member of the Church , is head of the Church , by your new found vnderstanding of God's word . After th●se and divers other questions to the same purpose , Doctor Brooks Bishop of Glocester spoke thus to Cranmer , you have bin conferred with all , not once , nor twice , but often times , you have bin oft lovingly admonis'd , you have oft bin secretly disputed with and the last year , in the open schooles , in open disputations you have bin openly convicted , you have bin openly driven out of the schooles with hisses ; your Book which you brag you made seaven years agoe , and no man answered it , Marcus Antonius hath sufficiently detected , and confuted , and you persist still in your wonted heresy ; Wherfore ( being so oft admonished , conferred withall , and convicted ) if you deny you to be the man whom the Apostle noteth ( haereticum hominem ) hear then what Origen saith , who wrote above 1300. years agoe , and interpreteth the saying of the Apostle in this wise ( in Apologia Pamphili ) Haereticus est omnis ille habendus qui Christo se credere profitetur , & aliter de Christi veritate sentit quam se habet Ecclesiastica traditio . He is to be deemed an heretick who professeth to believe in Christ , and yet judgeth otherwise of Christ's truth then the tradition of the Church doth hould &c. Wherfore I can no other but put you in the number of them whom Chrysostom spake of saying , Heare o thou Christian man ; wilt thou do more then Christ ? Christ confuted the Pharisees , yet could he not put them to silence : & fortior es tu Christo ? and art thou stronger then Christ ? &c. Thus much have I sayd , not for you M. r Cranmer , for my hope I conceived of you , is now gon and past , but in some what to satisfie the rude and vnlearned people , that they perceiving your arrogant lying , and lying arrogancy , may the better eschew your detestable and abominable schism . Two things I wish the Reader did observe in this conference , 1. What a faire Trial Cranmer and all other protetestants had before they were sentenced to death for heresy in Q. Maries dayes : they were heard speak for them-selves , and reason for their opinions in publick ; such as desired it , had time and Books given them to answer ; and further time to correct their answers ; wheras Catholick Priests are not permitted to reason for their Religion in publick by word of mouth , much less are they allowed time or books to defend the same by writing . 2. How litle the most learned protestants could or can say for their pre●ended 〈…〉 ? and by consequence how obstinat they 〈…〉 vpon that account ; and how well Origens 〈◊〉 of hereticks agreed , to Cranmer , Ridley , and the rest of their learned Martyrs , and to all the Protestant Clergy , seing they reject Ecclesiastical Tradition , and that sense of Scripture which the Church delivered from age to age , following their own privat fancies , and fond Interpretations . But from their Martyrised Clergy , let vs go to the Confessors and Doctors of their Church in Q. Maries days , who were the same that revived protestancy in Queene Elizabeths reign . SECT : III. Of the Protestant Clergy in Queen Maries Reign , the same that afterwards founde● Qeeen Elizabeths Church . The●● frauds , Factions , Cheats , and changes of the English Protestant Religion during their Exile in Germany . AS many of the English Protestant Clergy of King Eduard 6. as escaped the severity of the ancient lawes made against Hereticks , which were revived by Queen Mary , retired themselves to Germany and Zuitzerland , but found not that pitty and welcom they expected from their Brethren of the Reformation ; The English had made a Religion of their own , which was neither fully Lutheran Zwinglian , nor Calvinian ; their Liturgy was dislick't by all ; only their doctrin against the Real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament was approved by some Zuinglians , but so condemned by the Lutherans , that their Martyrs who suffered in England vpon that score , were called the Devill 's martyrs by other Protestants ; and they who harbour'd any of their banished Clergy in Germany , were hated by their reformed-neighbors . For stopping the course ( saith Heylin ) of these vncharitable Censures , it was thought fit to translate from English into Latin , Cranmers Book of the Sacrament , and forthwith see it printed ; but he doth not tell us which of Cranmer's Books ; that of Henry 8. or that of King Edward 6. ? We may be sure if he means Cranmer's Book of King Henry 8. time his book and words were altered , that they might agree with the Lutheran Consubstantiation in Germany , which Cranmer durst not defend in his Book of Henry ▪ 8. date ; and his Book of Edward 6. was wholy Zuinglian or Sacramentarian , which could not please Lutherans . So that the good English Church and Clergy in Germany , made them-selves and Cranmer Lutherans , to avoyd persecution , and obtain favour in their sufferings , after having maintained the quite contrary doctrin in their own Countrey , and exhorted their flocks to dye for that Religion which them-selves now disowned . This is not all , the like course was taken also at Geneva ( saith Heylin ) by the English exiles , by publishing in the Latin tongue a discours writ by Bishop Ridley on the self same argument ( the Sacrament of the Altar ) to the end it might appear vnto all the world how much their Brethren had bin wronged in these odious calumnies . So that the English Protestant Clergy in Germany , among the Lutherans printed a Book , and in Geneva a Calvinian discours concerning the real presence , and owned both as the doctrin of the Church of England ; for Ridley ( as you may observe in his disputation at Oxford set down at large by Fox in his Acts and Monuments ) was a Calvinist in that ●oint . Was not this a Holy Church that taught contrary 〈…〉 at least doctrin so vncertain that it might be applyed 〈◊〉 contrary Tenets ? was it not a sincere and sacred Clergy , that could fra●● them-selves and the profession of their 〈◊〉 to all 〈◊〉 how ever so disagreeing ? But let us proceed . The greatest number of the●e exiled Confessors were received in Franckford vpon condition th●y should conform them-selves vnto the French Hugenots in doctrin and ceremonies , which the holy men did so readily , that Doctor Heylin ( who relates all these passages ) doubts whether the conditions were imposed vpon them by the Magistrats , or ●ought by them-selves . The chief heads of this English Congregation at Francford were Wittingham , Williams , Goodman , Wood , and Sutton , to whom afterward● came Knox and White●ead . The first thing they did was , to alter and dis-figure ( saith Heyl●● ) the English Liturgy , which proceeding was not approved of by Grindall , Horn , Sandys , Chambers , and Pakhurst : Calvin therfore was consulted as their common Father , his answer was , that in the English Liturgy , he had observed many 〈◊〉 fooleries : that being , therwas not manifest impiety in it , it had bin tolerated for a reason , because at first it could not otherwise be admitted : but however though it was lawfull to begin with such beggarly rudiments , yet it behooved the learned , grave , and godly Ministers of Christ , to endeavour farther , and set forth somthing more refi●ed from filth and vncleaness . How great a Cheat Calvin was , had bin partly sayd heretofore , but whosoever desires to be fully informed of his particular villanies , and hypocrisy , let him read his life writen by Ierom Bolseck Anno 1577. There he will find how Calvin continued to practise his execrable Sodomy , adultery &c. How he compassed the Heretick Servetus his death vnder the pretence of Heresy , though Calvin him-self wrot a book a litle before to prove that no Heretick ought to be put to death for his Religion ; but the true cause o● his quarell to Servetus was the frauds and falsifications that Servetus had discovered in Calvin's Institutions , and published them . How he banished from Geneva divers Ministers , and Gentlemen that did not favour his way , and how he forged letters , and suborned an Italian , to make Peter Wald●●●●● , and the Bal●asars , Traytors ; but they cleered them-selves , and the Lords of Bern gave publick Testimony of their innocency , and of Calvin's knavery . How this Cheat ( to make him-self famous ) devised divers letters and other works in praise of him-self , and published them vnder the name of one Galatius , and others . But Peter Veretus Minister of Lausa●a found out the truth , and threatned to discredit Calvin , who ( to pacify Veretus ) writ to him that it was expedient by such means to get in credit for their cause , and that he meant shortly to do as much in the commendation of him , and Farellus also , and so stopt his mouth . How Calvin after that he had broken and defaced the Jmages of Christ , and Saints in Geneva , caused his own picture to be set vp in divers places , and vsed also to give litle pictures and Images of him-self to Gentle-women and Gentle-men to carry about their necks . And when on tould him that some thought much of this , he answered , he that cannot abide it , let him burst for enuy . And twenty more the like . But from their Apostle Calvin , let us return to his flock the English exiled Clergy . This Sentence of Calvin ( saith Heylin ) was of such prevalency with all the rest of that party , that such who formerly did approve , did afterwards as much dislike the English Liturgy ; and those who at first had conceived only a dislike , grew afterwards into an open detestation of it . But in the end , to give content to such as remained affected to the former Liturgy , it was agreed vpon that a mixt form , consisting partly of the order of Geneva , and partly of the Book of England , should be digested , and received till the first of April , consideration in the mean time to be had of some other cours which should be permanent , and oblidging for the time to come . Here the Reader may observe the hipocrisy , and impiety of this Protestant Cler●● ▪ In England they imposed this Liturgy vpon the whole Kingdom , as agreable to the word of God , and the work was pretended to have bin composed by the assistence of the Holy Ghost ( words of the Statut wherby it was made legal ) and thousands of Catholicks were slain in many shires of England by the Protector 's forces , because they would no● accept of it in steed of the Mass ; and now they who preach'd , and press'd this violence against Recusants , contemn and reject their own doctrin and disciplin . But as soon as Queen Elizabeth was in possession of the Crown these very men who in Germany had so often changed , and condemned their English Liturgy and Religion , now ( to become Bishops ) turned again in England with the times , and were the chief 〈◊〉 of that Church . Horn was named to the Sea of Winchester , Grindal to that of London , Sandys to Worcester , Parkhurst to Norwich ; and Whitehead was offered ( if you believe Heylin ) the Archbishoprick of Canterbury &c. And being thus exalted , were never contented , vntil they had penal and sanguinary Statuts enacted against Priest● and Popish Recusants , for not conforming to that doctrin and Liturgy these godly Prelats had so much sleighted and altered in Germany , and postpon'd to ●●lvin's disciplin : and were ready to do the same or wors again in England , if occasion had bin offered . After that the English Liturgy had bin thus forsaken and despised in Germany , D. r K●x , who had bin Schoolmaster and Almon●er to King Edward 6. arrived at Franckford ▪ and could with no patience ( saith Heylin ) endure the rejection of that Liturgy , in the drawing vp wherof him-self had a principal hand , and therfore disturbes the new disciplin ; Wittingham and Knox procured an Order from the Magistrat against Kox his des●ign ; but Kox accuseth Knox for treason against the Emperour , and therfore Knox is commanded by the Senat to depart from Franckford ▪ Kox procures Whitehead to be chosen for the principal Pastor , appoints two Ministers for Elders , and foure Deacons for Assistants ; then gives an account to Calvin , excusing him-self that he had proceeded so far without his consent . By the way you may see that Kox was then a good Calvinist in disciplin , though afterwards he became a Prelatick 1. Eliz. when he got the Bishoprick of Ely. Whitehead not able to rule such a contentious Congregation , resign'd his place to Horn , between whom and on Ashley were such factions and divisions , that Horn with his Elders were forc't to forsake their Offices ; and Ashleys party got the better , and composed a Book of disciplin , according to the rules wherof the Congregation was govern'd . The Magistrat not able to agree the difference , sends for Cox and Sandys to compose it , but to no purpose : They who stood for Ashley's new disciplin , got the power into their hands , whervpon Horn and Chambers depart to Strazburg . Such were the troubles and disorders ( saith Heylin ) in the Church of Franckford , occasioned first by a dislike of their publick Liturgy , before which they preferred the nakedness and simplicity of the French and Genevian Churches , and afterwards continued by the opposition made by the general Body of the Congregation against such as were appointed to be Pastors and Rulers over them . An other argument of the sincerity , and Religion of this Clergy is , that during the Reign of Queen Mary in England they taught and printed that the Government of women is against the Law of nature , and not to be endured by Christians ; but as soon as she dyed , they writ and preached the quite contrary in favour of Queen Elizabeth , whom they were not content to make temporal head of the common-wealth , but supreme Governess of the Church in all Spiritual affaires ; we have seen their proceedings in Queen Maries days , now to Queen Elizabeths . SECT : IV. Abominable Frauds , and willful Falsifications of the Protestant Clergy in Queen Elizabeths reign , to maintain their doctrin , set forth vnder the name of an Apology , and defence of the Church of England . AFter that Queen Elizabeth ( by giving hopes to the Earl of Arundell that she would marry him , and by promising ▪ other favours to the Duke of Norfolck ) had by their solicitations gained most of the nobility , and the Lords and Gentlemen who had the managing of elections in their several Counties , had retained such men for 〈◊〉 of the House of Commons , as they conceived mo●● likely to comply with the Queens new design in reviving that Religion , which but five years before , them-selves and the whole Kingdom had rejected as damnable heresy and groundless novelty , devised by some l●w'd revolted Friars ▪ and Priests ▪ and had observed how all sober and conscien●ious men we●● troubled to see so shamefull a change , introduced only for maintaining the weakness of a title against the cleer right of the Stewards ; and fearing least this scruple might spread , and work vpon the consciences of the illiterat multitude , it was thought fit to command Bishop Iewell ( the fittest man for so impudent an vndertaking ) to assert the antiquity of the particular Tenets of the New Church of England ; and so in forme of a Challenge against all Roman Catholicks he published at Paules Cross that the Religion which the Queen and Parliament had then established by Law , was no novelty , nor new invented sense of Scripture , but the same which our Saviour and his Apostles delivered to the Church , and all Orthodox Christians held for the first 600. years ; which thing he vndertook to demonstrat by vndeniable Testimonies of the Holy Fathers that lived in those six first Centuries . The words of this Challenge we have set down heretofore , as also the confutation therof . One Rastal having writ against this challenge , Iewell togeather with the rest of the Bishops , and learned Protestant Clergy , composed that famous Apology for the Church of England both in Latin and English ; it came out first in the name of their whole Church , though I believe Iewell had the wording of it , because afterwards his name was set to it , and to the defence therof ; but without doubt all the able men of the English Clergy had their hands and heads in the work . Against it divers appeared in print , Stapleton , Sanders , and Harding : whervpon ( saith Dean Walsingham in his search of Religion pag. 166. ) Mr. Iewel within few years after set forth the reply to D. r Harding , which was esteemed to have bin made by joynt labours of the most learned men in England , both in London , and the Vniversities . But in these their labours they were convicted of a thousand and odd falsifications , and yet ( saith Harding ) of 26. articles , only five have passed our examination : Imagin then what number is like to rise of the whole work ; I will mention but one or two of every controversy , I hope that is sufficient to prove , that no one point wherin Protestants differ from Roman Catholicks , can be maintained , even by the most learned Protestants , without frauds , falshoods , and impostures , And do choose to instance particulars out of this Apology , and defence of the Church of England , because it is not only the work of their first Bishops and Clergy , and the very bulwork of their Church , but ( as D. r Heylin truly says ) the Magazin from whence all the Protestant Controversies since that time have furnished them-selves with arguments and authorities . We will omit most of their corruptions of Scripture in the Apology because we have convicted them el●●where of that crime ; but that they may not imagin we what matter even in this work of theirs , let the curious read 〈…〉 Epistle to M. r Jewell , set before his return 〈◊〉 vntruth● , where he tells him , you have falsifyed and mangled the very Text of Holy Scripture , namely of Saint Paule , in one Chapter nine times ; as the reader may see in the third article of his Book fol. 107. SVBSECT I. The Protestant Clergy convicted of falshood in their Apology concerning Communion vnder one kind . BIshop Iewell and his Associats maintain with most Protestants , that to receive the B. Sacrament 〈◊〉 one kind only , is against the institution of Christ● and therfore could not be allowed nor practised by the Church , nor ever was , during the first six hundred years . So that the Controversy between the Church of England , and Harding , is , whether in the first 600. years after Christ any Communion were ministred vnder one kind , or no ▪ which they ( vnder the name of M. r Jewell ) deny , against whom Harding giveth an instance out of the Ecclesiastical History of one Serapian , that was Communicated in his death vnder one kind only . Mr. Iewell seing him-self convicted , replieth ; That it is not our question , we vnderstand not of privat Communion , but of publick in the Church ; and yet in the first proposing of the Question there was no mention of the Church , or Publick ; and the whole controversy between Catholicks and Protestants is , whether with out breach of Christ's Institution , any man might communicat vnder one kind only . Then Mr. Iewell is demanded whether if it may be proved that sick persons have received the Communion vnder one kind in the Church , it will satisfie him ? wher to he answereth , no : saying , the only thing that I denied is , that yee are not able to bring any one sufficient example , or authority , that ever the whole people received the Communion in open Church in one kind within that time ; then he is vrged further , whether if it can be proved that in closs chappels , and Oratories , in wilderness and caves , in time of persecution the communion was practised vnder one kind , this would satisfie him , for so muc● as this proveth Christ's Institution not to forbid Communion vnder one kind ? But M. r Iewel leapeth also from this , saying , the question is whether the Holy Communion were ever ministred openly in the Church ? It being manifest that for the first 300. years vntill Constantin's time , the Christians in most places , particularly at Rome , had no open Churches , but privat Oratories , and caves . At length being demanded whether Infants receaving the Communion vnder one kind openly in the Church , was a sufficient example ? Jewel answereth , Mr. Harding maketh his whole plea vpon an Jnfant , and yet of Infants , as he knoweth , I spake nothing . Mr. Harding presseth him with the example of the two disciples , to whom Christ our Saviour did give the Communion vnder one kind only at Emaus , as by the Text of Scripture , and Jnterpretation of ancient Fathers is plain , he alledgeth also the examples of S. t Ambrose , and S. t Basil , who receaved the Sacrament vnder one kind , though they were Priests . Wherunto M. r Iewel answereth , this is not to the purpose , for the question is moved , of lay people , M. r Harding bringeth examples of Christ , and two disciples who were of the number of 72. and therfore it may well be thought they were ministers , and not of the lay sort , I demanded of the layty , M. r Harding answereth of St. Ambrose , and St. Basil which were Bishops . Which evasion is not only fraudulent , but foolish , as if , forsooth , Priests and Bishops might receive and communicat vnder one kind , lay men might not : But any weak answer is sufficient for credulous people to persist in obstinacy . At length being convicted by his Adversary of an example where the layty and whole people receaved openly vnder one kind , and in the Church , he answereth , this is not sufficient , for , saith he , the point demanded is , that the Sacrament was never ministred vnto the people vnder one kind onl● in any Congregation , or in open order and vsage of any Church , and that it will not follow that this was the common order of the Church . By which new addition of Common , Order , and Vsage , the whole state of the Question is changed , and Iewel convicted as you see ▪ of many frauds , and falshoods . And not only he , but all the Protestant Clergy , who notwithstanding the acknowledged evidence , and their conviction ( by these examples and many others , wherof they are not ignorant ) that Christ did not command the Communion to be given vnder both kinds to the Layty ( nor even to Priests when they do not o●●er Sacrifice ) yet are they so inconscionable as to impose vpon illiterat people , that they ought not to be of the Roman Catholick Church , because we deprive them ( contrary to Christ's Institution and precept ) of one half of the Communion , without which they cannot be saved . SVBSECT II. How Iewel and the Church of England make the very same Holy Fathers they appealed vnto in other matters , wicked Hereticks , because they condemned Priests marriage . JEwel's Adversaries having quoted against his bould assertions the vnanswerable sayings of sundry Fathers of the first 600. years condemning the marriage of Priests and Votaries ; the English Clergy , ( by Jewel's pen ) rather then acknowledg their error , and relinquish their wenches , and pretended wives , resolved to declare the holy Fathers Hereticks , saying , divers of the holy Fathers have writen ouer b●sely , J will not say vildly and scandalously , of the state of matrimony in generall , calling it in all kind of men , fornication , an evill thing , and like to adultery : Therfore J say they may much less be taken as indifferent Iudges in Priests marriages . So that the Church of England in their Apology , and Protestants now a days would fain make the ancient Fathers , and all who write against the marriage of Priests , to be those hereticks St Paul sayd would teach doctrin of Devills , and speake against marriage in generall ; witness Iewell with the first Bishops and Clergy of Queen Elizabeth . But because Jewell , and his fellow Bishops would not seem to want examples of holy Bishops that were actualy husbands , they corrupt the Ecclesiasticall History , and bely the Authors therof ( Niceph. lib. 10. Hist. c. 10. Zozon . lib. 5. c. 11. Cassiod . lib. 6. cap. 14. ) and pretend that they recount how Eusychius Bishop ( saith Iewel ) of Cesaraea , dyed in martyrdom , having married a wife a litle before ; wheras the sayd Authors have not on word of his being Bishop , or Priest ; but rather do evidently shew that he was a lay nobleman , Patricius Cesaraeae Cappadociae , a Sentaor's son of that Citty , highly commended , for that having newly married a wife , yet was so constant in his martyrdom . In like manner do they falsify ( Apol. 2. c. 8. ) St. Gregory Nazianzen , Pretending he saith , speaking of his own Father , that a good and diligent Bishop doth serve in the Ministery never the worse for that he is married , but rather the better ; and this falsification being objected by Harding , Iewel and his Camerades , prove it by pretending that St. Gregory acknowledged his mother was his father's Teacher , and leader in Ecclesiastical functions ( as perhaps some Protestant Bishops wives are ) wheras it is evident that the Saint spoke of his father when he was not a Christian , and because he was converted by his Mother , a● St. Monica converted St. Austin's Father , see Harding detect . fol. 63. SVBSECT III. Bishop Iewel and his Associats wickedness in Charging Cardinal Hosius and all Catholicks with a contempt of Holy Scripture against their own knowledg , and after that they had bin admonished of the imposture . CArdinal Hosius in his Book de expresso verbo Dei , as also in an other de haeresibus , against Brentius ; complain'd of the multitude of Sects and Heresies sprung vp in our days , all of them pretending Scripture for their ground . So far forth that Luther him-self seing the event therof , sayd the Bible was now become liber haereticorum , the Book of Hereticks : and then further the same Cardinal shewing that there was a new later brood sprung vp of Zuinck feldian Hereticks , who by pretence of Scripture did take away all authority of writen Scriptures , persuading men only to attend to inspirations and inward revelations , alleadging for that their doctrin the words of the Psalm , J will hear what the Lord speaketh in me , and many other such Texts misconstred ; Mr. Iewel and the English Protestant Clergy would needs publish this as Hosius his own words , sense , and meaning , with great out-cryes and invectives against both him , the Pope , and all Catholicks , as though we had bin of opinion that all writen Scriptures were to be rejected : ( as may be seen in his Apology both in Latin and English , and Doctor Harding's confutation of the same : ) and notwithstanding that before this Apology was printed in Latin they were told of his mistake , yet they would needs have it pass . And when the sayd Apology was translated into English , they were put again in mind of his malitious and fraudulent dealing , and earnestly desired to correct this wilfull mistake , but they rather did aggravate the calumny then confess their error ; for they commanded it should be printed , and sought by some additions in the English Text more then was in the Latin , to justify this former villany ; Harken saith the Apology how holily , and how Godly on Hosius writeth of this matter , a Bishop in Polonia , as he testifyeth of him-self , a man doubtless well spoken , and not vnlearned , and a very sharp and stout Maintainer of that side . Thou wilt mervail I suppose how any good man could either conceive so wickedly , or write so dispitefully of those words , which he knew proceeded from God's mouth , and especialy in such sort as he would not have it seem his own privat opinion alone , but the common opinion of all that Band. He dissembleth , J grant you indeed , and hideth what he is , and setteth forth the matter so , as though it were not he and his side , but the Zuink feldian Hereticks that so did speak : We ( saith he ) will bid away with the Scriptures , wherof we see brought , not only divers , but all contrary Interpretations ; we will hear God speak , rather then resort to the naked elements , or bare words of the Scripture &c. Having writen this and other such speeches as proceeding from Hosius ; Iewel and his Camerades conclude thus . This is Hosius his saying , vttered togeather with the same spirit , and the same mind , wherwith in times past Montanus and Marcion were moved &c. And then exclaims against all Papists in these words ? what shall J say here , O ye principall posts of Religion ? and ye Arch-Governors of Christ's Church ? Is this your reverence which you giue to God's word ? to bid them avant away &c. no mervaile if these men dispise us and all our doings , which set so litle by God him-self , and his infallible saying . Thus they write and inveigh against Hosius , and all the Roman Church , even after they knew , and had bin twice admonished that the whole ground was fals and forged by them-selves . Hosius his own words are , there is sprung vp a certain new kind of Prophets , who have not bin afraid by the authority of Scripture , to take away all authority from the Scripture . Behould whither Satan at length hath brought this matter &c. And after , Nihil Scripturâ sanctius , &c. Nothing is more holy then Scripture , nothing more noble or excellent , there is nothing next to God himself more worthy of all veneration and reverence : but what thing can there be so holy , which the enemy of man-kind may not abuse to man's destruction &c. Thus Hosius : how hardly his words could be wrested , or mistaken by Iewel and his Confederats , all the world may see , and ought to detest a Reformation , that can not be otherwise maintain'd , then by such palpable impostu●es . SVBSECT IV. Falsificatïons and Frauds against the Bishop of Rome his supremacy . JEwel and his Associats cyting a Constitution of the Emperour Iustinian , against the Pope's supremacy , say : The Emperours words stand thus , Sancimus &c. Senioris Romae Papam , primum esse omnium Sacerdotum : Beatissimum autem Archi-Episcopum Constantinopolios novae Romae secundum habere locum : which words Mr. Iewel Englisheth thus , We ordain that the Pope of the elder Rome shall be the first of all Priests , and that the most holy Arch-bishop of Constantinople , which is named new Rome , have the second place . Of which Mr. Iewell and the English Church inferr , that the Pope's Authority , and preeminency in those days consisted only in sitting in the first place ; and that this dignity also was given him by the secular power of the Emperour : First , Iewell and his Camerades , by ●n &c. did hope to make the Emperour spiritual head of the Church , and by consequence derive the same prerogative to all secular Princes in their own Dominions ; for they fraudulently omitted the words wherby the whole matter is cleered ; the words as they stand in the Constitution of Iustinian , are these : Sancimus secundum Canonum definitiones , sanctissimum senioris Romae Papam , primum esse omnium Sacerdotum &c. we do ordain , according to the determination of the Canons &c. But had they not concealed these words , they had discovered the weackness of their doctrin of the Queen's supremacy , because those few words according to the definition of the Canons , import , that this ordination or declaration of the Emperour was grounded vpon the authority of the Canons of the Church , which he did but confirm , and command the execution of the Decrees and Declarations of Councells by his Imperial power . The second fraud is , that they translate , primum esse omnium Sacerdotum , thus , that he shall be the first of all Priests : , wheras the Emperour vseth the present tense , declaring that the Pope is the Chief of all Priests , not shall be . By Iewel 's falls Translation they intended to impose vpon such as vnderstand not Latin ( or at least are so careless as not to compare this Text with the English ) that Popes had not bin the first or chief of all Priests before that Decree of Iustinian ; and that spirituall supremacy came to them by vertue therof . Not content with this fraud , they add an other in the very next words of this Constitution , which are these : We ordain also that the most Holy Arch-Bishop of Justiniana the first , which is our Country , shall have for ever vnder his Iurisdiction the Bishops of the Provinces , of Dacia , Dania , Dardania , Mysia , and Panonia , and that they shall be invested by him , and he only by his own Councell , and that he in the Provinces subject vnto him , shal have the place of the Apostolick sea of Rome &c. Out of which words Mr. Iewel and his English Prelatick Clergy inferr thus , Heere we see the Bishop of Iustiniana set in as high authority and power with in his own Iurisdiction , as the Bishop of Rome with in his . But had they bin as honest as the Protestant Layty take them to be , all the world might have seen the Roman truth , and their falshood ; for they deceitfully cut of the ensuing words that expound and declare the whole matter : the words cut of are , secundum ea quae sanctus Papa Vigilius constituit ; we ordain that these things shall be don and observed ▪ according to that which the Holy Pope Vigilius had constituted ; so that as in the former decree the Emperour professeth him-self to have ordained according to the definitions of the Canons , so here in particular he professeth to have confirmed the Constitutions of the holy Pope Vigilius , who had made the Arch-Bishop of Iustiniana to be his legat , and to hould the place of the Apostolic● Sea of Rome in those Provinces : not vnlike to that of St. Gregory , who according to venerable Bede in his history , gave the like Authority to St. Augustin our first Arch-Bishop of Canterbury , by which Concession they have always bin called Legati nati sedis Apostolicae . Not content to conceale the words and the truth of Imperial Decrees , and Ecclesiastical Histories , Iewel and the English Clergy were neither ashamed nor afraid to corrupt Scripture to the same purpose against the Pope's supremacy . For , pretending that the words of Christ to St. Peter , Thou art a Rock , and upon this Rock will I build my Church , and again , feed my Lambs , feed my sheep , were spoken as well to all the Apostles as to St. Peter ; in the Apology of the Church of England , is quoted for profe hereof an other saying of our Saviour , Quod vni dico , omnibus dico , that which I say to one , I say to all , which sentence is not found in Scripture , but an otherlike it , though to an other purpose , to wit , about the watchfulness which our Saviour would have all men vse for the day of Iudgment Quod vobis dico , omnibus dico , vigilate : That which I say to you ( here present ) I speak to all ( both absent and to come ) be watchfull of this day , wherof Mr. Iewel , and his Collegues could not be ignorant ; and yet thus he insulted , Mr. Harding affirmeth , That to the rest of the Apostles it was not sayd at all feed ye &c. to Peter and to non els was it sayd feed my Lambs , feed my sheep : yet Christ him-self saith quod vni dico , omnibus dico , that y say to one I say to all : And quoted for it Marck the 13. SVBSECT V. Frauds and fond devices of the protestant Clergy of England to deny and discredit the Sacrifice of the Mass. DOctor Harding having proved out of the Testimony of Leontius Bishop of Cyprus that John the holy Patriarch of Alexandria sayd Mass , and received alone , Iewel and his Camerades answer thus . A streight case for Mr. Harding to run to Alexandria a thousand miles beyond all Christendom so seck his Mass. As if at that time Alexandria were not almost in the midd'st of Christendom , or though it had bin in the midd'st of Infidells , as if that could be an argument of any force against the truth of Christian doctrin , which was no less pure when it was preached and practised amongst Jdolaters , then at this present among Christians . Doctor Stapleton confuting some objections of the English Apology against Harding , quotes both his words and Iewell 's thus ; St. Andrew the Apostle ( saith Mr. Harding ) touching the substance of the Mass , worshiping God every day with the same service as Priests now do in celebrating the external Sacrifice of the Church . Mr. Iewel thus answereth ; The 6. vntruth , S. Andrew sayd the Communion , not the Mass. Mr. Harding ▪ saith further , They shall find the same most plainly treated of and a form of Mass much agreable to that which is vsed in these days , set forth by St. Dyonise scholler to St. Paul. Mr. Iewell , The ninth vntruth , It is the very form of the Communion , and nothing like the privat Mass. Mr. Harding again : I referr them insteed of many , to the two Fathers Basil and Chrysostom . whose Masses be lest to posterity in these times . Mr. Iewell , the 11. vntruth ; they contain the very order of the Communion . Mr. Harding yet further . Among all other Fathers Cyrillus Hierosolimitanus is not to be passed over lightly , who at large expoundeth the whole Mass vsed in Hierusalem in his time , the same which now we find in ould St. Clement long before him and others . Mr. Iewell , the 12. vntruth , It is the very express order of the Communion . And after this ●●●●ulous manner of contradicting without confuting Doctor Harding's particular instances , Iewell exclaims , O Mr. Harding is it not possible your Religion , may stand without lyes ? so many vntruths in so litle roome , without the shame of the world , without feare of God &c. His fond fraud is detected , and his vntruths returned vpon him-self by D. r Stapleton , who tells Bishop Jewell , that in the Catholick sense the Mass and Communion are the self same thing in substance , the Communion being a principal part of the Mass , without which there is no sacrificie : for which cause the Priest always communicateth either alone or with others , when company doth offer it self , or are prepared for it , and consequently it is a fraud saith he ( M. r Jewell ) to put a contradiction between Communion and privat Mass , as though the one could not stand with the other ; saying that the forenamed Fathers which are cited to have sayd Mass , sayd the Communion , and no Mass , where as we ( saith M. r Sta●●●ton ) hould that they did both , and sayd the one and the other , that is , they celebrated the dayly sacrificie and therwithall did communicat . But if M. r Iewell mean of the English Communion , wher in no external Sacrifice , nor real presence of Christ's body is acknowledged or believed , then proveth D. r Stapleton , that the foresaid Fathers cannot possibly be vnderstood to speak of that Communion , for that in their said Liturgies they do make express mention of the Real presence of Christ's flesh therin , and of the offering vp ( as the express words of S. Andrew are ) of the Sacred body and bloud of Christ our Saviour in Sacrifice vnto God his Father . And moreover in St. Dionise his Mass there is express mention of Oblation and Consecration of the Misteries , of prayer for the Dead , of Altars , Censing , Communion and memory of Saints ; all which things are not in the English Liturgy or Communion , and much more . He sheweth the same in the Mass or Liturgies of St. Basil , and St. Chrysostom ; where , after the Oblation made of the Sacrifice , commemoration is made also of the blessed Saints in heaven , and namely of our B. Lady , and St. John Baptist , and of the Saint of the day , and of prayer for the Dead : which last clause St. Cyrill doth explicat more particularly , saying : when we offer vp this Sacrifice , after ( the Oblation ) we make mention of those which have departed this life before vs ; And first of the Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , and Martyrs , that by their prayers and intercessions , Almighty God may receive our prayers , And then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops departed , and lastly we pray for all men which among us have deceased , believing it to be a great relief of soules for whom the intercession of that Holy and dreadfull Sacrifice , which is layd vpon the Altar , is offered . These are the words of St. Cyrill , whervpon Mr. Stapleton demandeth : Is this the express order of your Communion ? Here you see ( saith he ) is Oblation , Sacrifice , Altar prayer to Saints , prayer for the Dead , and is all this don in your English Communion ? And now I hope we may with more reason exclaim against Iewell and the Church of England ▪ then they did against 〈◊〉 , is it not possible your Religion may stand without l●es ? SVBSECT VI. Prelatick Falsifications and Corruptions of Scripture to make the Pope Antichrist , and Succession of Bishops , a mark of the Beast . ONe of the things which most troubled Bishop Iewell , and the first Protestant Prelats of Queen Elizabeth , was there notorious want of Episcopal Caracter , and succession derived from the Apostles ; all the true Bishops of England refusing to ordain them , after that them-selves had bin violently deprived of their Seas by the Queen's Command , for not conforming to her she supremacy , and new doctrin . Mr. Jewell therfore and his Camerades , observing how much their cause was prejudiced by this want of Succession , published and preached many things to discredit the same ; and to that purpose in the defence of the Apology of the Church of England , th●● write thus . By succession Christ saith that desolation shall 〈…〉 the Holy place , and Anti-Christ shall press into the room 〈…〉 : and for proof they note in the margent , Mat. 24. And in the same defence ( pag. 127. ) they say , of Succession St. Paul saith to the faithfull at Ephesus , I know that after my departure hence ravening wolves shall enter , and succeed me , and 〈◊〉 of your selves there shall ( by succession ) spring vp men speaking perversly . Wheras St. Paul hath never a word of succession 〈◊〉 succeeding , neither is there any mention of succession in Matthew 24. But the quite contrary is evident by the nature of the thing it self , for that Antichrist entring by violence , shall 〈◊〉 dissolue all lawfull succession of Priests , and Bishops continued from the Apostles time to his time , then enter himself by succession ; which point seemeth to have bin foretould by St. Paul to the Thessalonians when he saith , that except defection ( or Apostacy ) go before , ( which is an open breach from orderly succession and subordination ) the man of sin shall not be revealed . So that Succession which by all the ancient and Holy Doctors is believed and defended to be a mark of the true Church , is affirmed by Iewell and the first Protestant Bishops to be a mark of Anti-Christ , and to prove this their non sense , they are pleased to falsify Scripture ; and all this was don , because they knew them-selves wanted succession and imposition of Episcopal hands , and were made Bishops only by the Queen's letters patents , and dispensation with the inhability of their very state and condition , and legitimated , or made legal by an Act of Parliament 8. Elizabeth 1. SVBSECT VII . Prelatick Falsifications to prove that Popes may , and have decreed Heresies . IN the Apology of the Church of England part . ● . cap. 5. Iewell and the English Clergy affirm , that Pope Iohn 22. held a wicked and detestable opinion of the life to come , and Jmmortality of the soule , which accusation they had out of Calvin , whose words are , that Pope Iohn affirmed man's soule to be mortal ; This being proved to be a lye , by Doctor Harding ; Iewell and his Clergy replyed in the defence of the Apology thus , Gerson writeth in Sermons Paschali ; Pope John 2● . to have decreed that the soules of the wicked should not be punished before the day of the last Iudgment , by which words , as you shall see , insteed of cleering one fals accusation against Iohn 22 they bring in another ; for Gerson hath no such words ; but the true controversy was indeed , whether the soules of the just ( not of the wicked ) should see God face to face , before the day of Iudgment , or not ; wherin Pope Iohn being Reader of Divinity in France , before he was Pope , inclined to the negative part : the Controversy was decided after Pope Iohn's death i● the extravagant of Pope Benedictus . Not content with this Jmposture they add an other greater in confirmation of their former Charge , fathering in the same and these ensuing words vpon the Councell of Constance Quinimo Ioannes Papa 22. yea Pope Iohn the two and twentith , held and believed obstinatly that the soule of man did dye with the body , and was extinguished as the soules of the bruit Beasts . And more over he sayd , that a man once dead , is not to rise again , no not at the last day . First this Testimony doth not touch Pope Iohn 22. at all but an Anti-Pope Iohn vsurping the Popedom , and calling him-self Iohn 23. and this a hundred years after Pope Iohn 22. 2. These words are not words of the Councell , but words of an accusation vsed by a certain man that did accuse him in the Councell of Constance , vnder the name Baltazar de Cossa calling him-self Iohn 23. where laying against him 35. articles , concerning his wicked life , before he took vpon him the sayd name of Pope , which Articles were proved , but not this point of Heresy . SVBSECT VIII . Prelatick Falsifications to prove that Popes have insulted over Kings . THe Apology of the Church of England doth set forth how a Pope commanded the Emperour to go by him at his hors bridle , and the French King to hould his stirrop , and the like , which Mr. Harding proveth to be lyes ; then it says that the Pope hurled vnder his table Francis Dandalus the Duke of Venise , King of Creta and Cyprus , fast-bound with chains , to feed of bones among his doggs . But neither Francis Dandalus was Duke of Venice , when he was sent to the Pope in this Embassage , neither was he King of Creta nor Cyprus , that name ( of King ) not being tollerable in the free State of Venice ; and as for the Duke at that time , his name was Johannes Superantius , and Dandalus was but a privat man , sent Embassador to Clement 5. then Pope to obtain the revocation of an Jnterdict , which was layd vpon the sayd Citty ; and finding the Pope some what hard to yeeld to his supplication , he devised of him-self this Stratagem , to cause an Iron chain to be put about his own neck , and to creep in vpon his hands and knees while the Pope was at dinner , and there lay down vnder the Table , and would not rise vntill he had obtained pardon and remission for his Country : and this Doctor Harding proveth out of the principal Authors and writers of the Venetian Commonwealth . SVBSECT IX . Prelatick Falsifications to prove that S. Austin the Apostle of our English Saxons was an hypocrit , and no Saint ; as also to discredit Catholick writers . BIshop Iewell and his Prelatick Clergy in their reply to the Objections against their Apology for the Church of England ( pag. 185. ) speak thus of St. Austin the Monk and Apostle of England : He was a man , as is judged by them that 〈◊〉 and knew him , neither of an Apostolicall spirit , nor any way 〈◊〉 to be called a Saint , but an hypocrit , and a supperstitious 〈◊〉 , cruell , bloudy , and proud out of measure . There is no ●riting extant of any man , that saw him and knew him alive , but only of St. Gregory the Great , who commended him exceedingly ; and of St. Bede that lived not very long after him , who writeth also much of his Sanctity and miracles : who then 〈◊〉 those who lived with him and knowing him , did Iudge him to be so bad a man ? Iewell citeth only in the margent Greffey of Monmouth , who lived neer six hundred years after St. Austins dayes . Bishop Iewell and his Camerades say also that Ioannes de Magistris ( he would have sayd Martinus ) writ in his Book de Temperantia , that fornication is no sin ; but this Author houlds the quite contrary , and proveth it by six several conclusions , and by St. Paul saying that it excludeth from the Kingdom of heaven ; but yet for that he saith in the beginning , Arguitur quod non , it may be objected to the contrary , the Apologists foolishly and fraudulently accuse ( in this Author ) Roman Catholicks with damnable doctrin . Much more might be sayd of their fals dealing in this Apology , defence , and reply , of the Church of England ; but we remit the curious to Doctor Harding , Stapleton &c. SVBSECT X. Of the protestant prelatick Clergies frauds , and falsifications of Scripture , and alterations of their 39. Articles of Religion , to make the people believe that they have true Priests and Bishops in the Church of England . THe point most insisted vpon by Dr. H●rding , Stap●●t●n &c : and all 〈◊〉 Catholick 〈◊〉 their Boo●● 〈◊〉 the 〈…〉 and 〈◊〉 of the Church of England ▪ was , that it could not 〈◊〉 Church , because it had not any one true Bishop , and according to St. Hierom ( saith Harding ) 〈◊〉 non est quae non habet 〈◊〉 , which word 〈◊〉 signifieth Bishop as well as 〈◊〉 ▪ That the Church of England had 〈◊〉 ( in the beginning of Queen Eliza●●●● Reign , whom Harding and Stapleton writ against it ) as much as one Bishop validly consecrated , they proved ; because not one of them was consecrated by a true Bishop , or by imposition of Episcopal hands : and if they durst say they were ▪ Harding and Stapleton chalenged them to name him . Who hath layd hands on you ? how and by whom are you consecrated ( saith Harding and Stapleton ? How chanced then ( Mr· Iewell ) that you and your fellowes bearing your selves for Bishops &c. have taken vpon you that Office without any Imposition of hands ? J ask not who gave you Bishopricks , but who made you Bishops ? Me thinks Iewell and his Camerades , the first Protestant Bishops , might easily have answered , by only naming the person who consecrated them , and the place of their consecration : But not a word of this point . Iewell indeed once attempted to answer something , but it had bin better for himself and his Companions , he had sayd nothing , for , his silence to the question might have bin interpreted a slighting of the demand , by the Bigots of his Church , that endeavor to make the most palpable absurdities probable answers in this and other Controversies . Iewell therfore saith , himself was a Bishop by the free and accustomed Canonical election of the whole Chapter of ●●lesbury ; but to the question how he , or Parker , together with the first Bishops , were consecrated ; or by whom ? not one 〈◊〉 . After having first contented himself ( and by conse●●nce Arch-bishop Parker and his other Camerades that were ●●●stioned ) with a bare election of the Chapter , insteed of an Episcopal consecration , yet he adds our Bishops are made in form 〈◊〉 Order , as they have bin ever , by free election of the Chapter , 〈◊〉 consecration of the Arch-bishop , and three other Bishops . Heere we may observe both fraud and folly : because he doth not answer to the question : his adversary askes him how himself and the first protestant Bishops ( wherof Arch-bishop 〈◊〉 was one , and the chief ) were consecrated , and by whom ? 〈◊〉 lieu of answering , Arch-bishop Parker , my self , and the other 〈◊〉 Bishop were consecrated by such a man , and in such a place , 〈◊〉 his Adversary , our Bishops are made by consecration of the Arch-bishop &c. Perhaps he meant that Arch-bishop Parker con●●●rated himself , by imposition of his own hands : therfore Harding tells him , and how I pray you was your Arch-bishop himself consecrated . ( For that was the question and main point of the Controversy ) what three Bishops were there in the realm to 〈◊〉 hands on him ? &c. There were antient Bishops enough in England , who either were not required , or refused to consecrate you . ( He alludes to the Bishop of Landaff , who refused to consecrate them at the nags-head , and to the Irish Arch-Bishop Creagh , who refused also to lay hands on them , though they offered him his liberty , being then prisoner in the Tower , if he would do them that favor . What Parker , Horn , Jewell , and none of the first Bishop● could do , but some fiue or six yeares after their pretended conconsecration ; their successors of the Church of England have don , above fifty yeares after . They shewed in the yeare 1613. a Register not only with the names of Parker's Consecrators , but with a description of the tapestry on the east-side of the Chappell , read 〈…〉 , Sermon , Communion , concourse of people , &c. at the solemnity of his consecration at Lambeth forsooth , and yet neither Parker himself , nor any Protestant , or Catholick ever heard of such a solemnity , Consecration , or Consecrators , when both parties were so highly engaged about the names , of the place and persons ; and made it the subject of printed Bookes ▪ and all this their contest was in a time that it might have been soon ended by 〈◊〉 , or Horn's only writing ( in their answers to 〈…〉 of their Adversaries ) the names of 〈…〉 place of their Consecration , without troubling themselves with copying 〈◊〉 of the Registers , the richness of the tapestry , or the color of the cloath , &c. menmentioned by M. r Mason , to make the fable credible by so common and ordinary stuff , seing he durst not venture upon more individual circumstances . But because no Protestant can believe so great 〈◊〉 was kept about ●●thing , M. r Mason , Primat Bramhall , D. r Heylin , and all other modern prelatick writers , endeavor to persuade the layty of the Church of England , that the dispute between Harding and Jewell , Stapleton and Horn , was not about the validity , but concerning the legality of the first Protestant Bishops consecration ; because , forsooth , Bishop Bon●er , in his plea , and Controvertists in their bookes , only pretended that there was no law 1. Eliz. to warrant Edward 6. forme of consecrating Bishops ; Q. Mary having repealed the same with the booke of Ordination , which Stapleton and the rest fancied was not revived with that of the common prayer 2. Elizab. by act of Parliament . But though this evasion hath bin sufficiently confuted by the Author of the nullity of the Prelatick Clergy and 〈◊〉 of England against Primat Bramhall , yet I admire he omitted these ensuing words of D. r Stapleton's , which demonstrate our Catholick exceptions were not grounded upon Stapleton's persuasion of the want of Laws or statuts then in force , for confirming the forme , or Booke of Ordination ; but they were ●●ther grounded upon a cleere evidence that though the sayd forme and Book of ordination was legal then , yet there had bin 〈◊〉 Consecration at all performed . For thus saith D. r Stapleton to Horn pretended Bishop of ●●●chester , It is not the Princes only pleasure that maketh a Bishop , 〈◊〉 there must be free election , without either forcing the Clergy to 〈◊〉 , or forcing the Chosen ( it seems Horn payd a good summ 〈◊〉 his Bishoprick ) to filthy bribery , and also there must follow a 〈◊〉 consecration , which you and all your Fellowes do lack , and ther●●●● you are indeed no true Bishops , neither by the law of the Church , 〈◊〉 yet by the law of the realm , for want of due consecration , expressly required by an act of Parliament renewed in this Queenes d●yes , in suffragan Bishops , much more in you ; By which words 〈◊〉 appeares that the exception was not grounded vpon D. r Sta●●●ton or any other Catholicks persuasion that Q. Elizabeth had not sufficiently renewed the booke and forme of ordination , by 〈◊〉 act of Parliament 1. Eliz. but on the quite contrary ; and that though there was an act , yet the Bishops could not be va●●●ly consecrated according to that Act of Parliament ( that Stapleton says was renewed 1. Eliz. ) for want of a true Bishop to ●●ercise that function , not for want of any Law to authorise ●piscopal consecration ; all the Catholick Bishops who were named in her first commission having refused to act by her order and her Majesties Dispensation ( in her second commission ) not only with her own statute , but with the very state and condition of the Protestant Consecrators , who were not Bishops , could not be of force to give them a spiritual caracter . Wherfore M. r Parker , Grindall , Horn , Jewell and the rest of the first Bishops , who understood better their own condition then their Successours would seeme now to do , resolved in their 〈◊〉 1562. to publish the 39. Articles made by Cranmer and his Junra , but with some alteration and addition ; especially to that article wherin they speak of the Sacraments ▪ for wheras Cranmers 25. or 26. article says nothing of Holy orders by Imposition of Hands , or any visible sign , or ceremony required therin , Parker and his Bishops having taken vpon themselves that calling without any such ceremony of Imposition of Episcopal hands , declared ; that God ordained not any visible sign or ceremony for the five last commonly called Sacraments , wherof Holy Orders is one . This alteration and addition you may see in D. r Heylin's appendix to Ecclesia restaurat● , pag. 189. And by order of the same Convocation was printed the Scripture , and in that their edition of 1562. Ordination by imposition of hands was translated ordination by election , as you may see part . 1. and part . 2. of this Treatise . And though Cranmer cared as litle for any visible signes or ceremonies in ordina●●●● 〈◊〉 the other first Protestant Reformers , and according to their 〈◊〉 had abjured the Priestly and Episcopal caracter which he had received among Catholicks ▪ 〈◊〉 you may gather by his own words related by John Fox in his degradation , thus : Then a Barbar dipped his hair round about , and the Bishop scraped the tops of his fingers were he had bin annointed , wherin Bishop Bonner behaved himself as rougly , and vnmanerly , as the other Bishop was to him soft and gentle . Whiles they were thus doing , All this ( quoth the Archbishop ) needed not , I had my self don with this 〈◊〉 long ago . Albeit I say Cranmer cared not for any Episcopal Ordination which he had received in the Catholick Church , yet he did not think to make the denial therof an article of the Protestant faith ; but Q. Elizabeths English Church in their Convocation 1562. seing they could not obtain the Episcopal caracter by Imposition of true Bishops hands , thought 〈◊〉 to make it a part of the Protestant belief , that no such visible 〈◊〉 or ceremony was necessary , or instituted by Christ ; and therfore concluded holy Orders was not a Sacrament . And though the prelatick Clergy now teach and practise the contrary , and 〈◊〉 K. Iame's reign Ordination by imposition of hands was restored to the Text of Scripture , and by consequence ordination by election , declared to be a Cheat , or corruption ; yet this change of the matter doth no more make them now true Priests and Bishops , then their last change of their forme of Ordination , since the most happy restauration of K. Charles the 2. SVBSECT XI . In Advertisment to the Reader concerning Bishop Iewell . BEcause Jewell was the most famous and learned man of the Church of England , in so much that M. r Hooker termes him the worthiest Divine that Christendom bred for 〈◊〉 hundred yeares past , and that his Apology and defence of the Church of England was the work of that whole Clergy ; and that Withaker after Iewell 's death , sayd to Campian , Jewell's chal●●●ge and speech concerning the first 600. yeares was most true , and 〈◊〉 all the Church of England did stand to it ; and that Heylin 〈◊〉 all the Protestant Controversors since Iewell take from his Apology and defence , their arguments and authority ; Because 〈◊〉 , the man is such a pillar of English Protestancy , and most 〈◊〉 that Religion pin their Faith upon his sleeve , and work ; and think the Holy Ghost directed his pen , in his Apology and defence of their Prelatick Church , I thought fit to let them Know , that they who were intimatly acquainted with him , give this testimony of him ; he was first a Catholick , and continued so untill Protestancy was made the religion of the state in Edward 6 : Reign ; then he turned Protestant , and remained so untill Queen Maries dayes , then he abjured protestancy as heresy , and seemed to be so forward and zealous in professing the Roman faith , that he was permitted to be one of the Notaries of Cranmer , and Ridleys di●●putations in the Vniversity ▪ D. r Heylin sayes all this his forwardness in Popery proceeded from feare . When Queen Elizabeth succeeded in the Kingdom , Jewell embraced her Religion and writ what you haue seen against our Religion , which himself had twice professed as the only Catholick : This much is confessed on all sides . Chark or Fulk ( I know not which of them is Author ) in the Answer to the Censure ( Edit . 1583. fol. 78. ) complains that as Papists say Luther was the son of an Incubus or the Divill , and dyed drunk ▪ Oecolampadius was killed by the Devill , or by his own hands ; Peter Martyr , had a familiar ; Martin Bucer consulted with his Cow and his Calf ; so they say that Iewell had all his knowledge from his Cat , or from a Weesel , and dyed recanting his opinions , embracing a Popish Cross , with protestation that he sinned against his own conscience and knowledge . That Jewell sinned against his own conscience and knowledge , is 〈◊〉 by his falsifications which we have set down , having bin himself a learned man , and besides having bin advertised of them by others , and therfore his mistakes could not proceed from ignorance . And that he said to some of his friends who put him in minde of his fals dealing , the Protestant Religion could not be otherwise defended , we have heard credibly reported , as also how he replied to his Amanuensis , that excepted against some of his falsifications , that not one Reader amongst a thousand would examin his corruptions , and Translations , or compare them with the Text , all which makes it ●●●dible enough that he went against his knowledge ; but for my own part I am not beholding to the relation of others for my ill opinion of Jewell , I am convinced that he was a wilfull falsifier , and Impostar , and do Iudge his own writings to be the best evidence therof ; If he recanted at his death , I hope he was saved , though he hath bin the damnation , I feare , of millions , that have bin seduced by his Books . And as for his cat , and his Wesel , I dispute not whether the Devill vsed to conferr with him in such shapes ; But I am sure the substance of his Apology , and the manner of defending his doctin , could proceed from no better Author ; and I belieue every rational man will be of the same opinion , if he peruse and examin his workes . SVBSECT XII . Examples of learned Protestants converted to the Roman Catholick Religion by observing the Frauds , and falshoods of the Apology of Iewell , and of the Protestant Clergy for the prelatick Church of England . THough it is to be feared that millions of soules have perished by the falsifications and frauds of Iewell , and of the Protestant Clergy , in publishing and maintaining ( even to this day ) their Apology and defence of the Church of England , yet many have bin saved by occasion of the notoriousness of the falshoods therin contained . I will spe●●fy only three , mentioned by the learned Author of the three conversions of England , who had it from their own mouthes ; ●●mitting others ( saith he ) which for just respects may not be named . Heare his own words . The first is S. r Thomas Copely , who oftentimes hath related unto me with much comfort of his soule , how that being a zealous Protestant , and very familiar to the Earle of Leicester , in the beginning of this Queenes dayes , when M. r Iewell 's Book was newly come forth , and being also learned himself in the latin tongue , took paines to examin several leaves therof , and finding many falshoods therin , which were inexcusable ( as they seemed to him ) he conferred the same with the Earle ; who willed him that the next time M. r Iewell dined at his table , he should take occasion after dinner to propose the same ; which he did soon after ; and receiving certain trifling answers from M. r Iewell , he waxed more hot , and urged the matter more earnestly ▪ which Iewell perceiving , told him in effect , that Papists were Papists , and so they were to be dealt with all , and other answer he could not get : which thing made the good Gentleman make a new resolution with himself , and to take that happy course which he did to leave his Countrey and many great Commodities which he enioyed therin , to enjoy the liberty of conscience for salvation of his soule . The second example , which I remember of my own knowledge , is M. r Doctor Stevens , a learned man yet alive , who being Secretary , or Chaplyn to M. r Iewell ( for I remember , not well whether ) and a forward man in Protestant Religion at that tyme , espied certain false allegations in his Master's Book , whilst it was yet vnder the print in London , wherof advertising him by letters . ( for that he supposed it might be by oversight ) the other commanded notwithstanding the print to go forward , and passed it over as it was , which this man seeing , that had a conscience and sought the truth indeed , resolved to take another way of finding it out : and having found it in the Catholick Church , where only it is to be found , he resolved also to follow it , and so he did , and went voluntarily into banishment for the same , where yet he liveth vnto this day in Finance , with good reputation both of learning and godliness . The third example that I call to mind , is the worthy man before named M. r William Reynolds , who being first an earnest Professor and Preacher of Protestant Religion in England , he fell in the end to read over M. r Iewell 's book , and did translate some part therof into latin , but before he had passed half over , he found such stuff as made him greatly mislike of the whole Religion ; and so he leaving his hopes and commodities in England , went over the sea into these parts , and the last yeare of Iubily , to wit 1575. he came to Rome and brought that book with him , and presented both himself and it to the Tribunal of Inquisition , of his own free motion and accord &c. And himself after absolution received from his former errors ( which he with great humility and zeale required , and myself also at that time did speak with him in that place ) he returned into France and Flanders , and there lived many years with singular edification for his rare virtue , and learning , and how heartily indeed he was converted , may well appeare by his zealous writings , both in Latin and English in defence of Catholick Religion . Thus much the Author of the three Conversions . I am credibly informed by a person then present , that Primat Bramhall and some of his Majesties Chaplains ( who now are Bishops ( persuaded or endeavored to persuade our most gratious Soveraign Charles 2. ( who was then at Bruges ) that this Doctor Reynolds was made a Papist by disputing with an other Doctor Reynolds whom he intended to make a Protestant , And that the Roman Catholick Doctor Reynolds , at the same time turned Protestant . Some think this story was feigned to make the King believe that there is as much to say for the Protestant religion , as for the Catholick : And to the end his Majesty might not reflect vpon the falshood of a Religion forsaken out of meere conscience by it's greatest Doctors , when they were most applauded , and when they had reason to expect the richest Benefites , and greatest honours . From the Apology of the Church of England , we will pass to John Fox his Acts and Monuments , a Book no less commended by the Protestant Clergy then the former , because by frauds and lyes it serves their turn to foole the well meaning Layty , who take it to be a true Ecclesiasticall History of the persecuted Church of Christ. SECT . V. Frauds , follies , and falsifications of Iohn Fox his Acts and Monuments , and of his Magdeburgian Masters in their Centuries ; the litle sincerity of the English Church and Clergy in countenancing such falls dealing . AFter that Luther and Calvin's desperat shift ( of the invisibility of Christ's Church for more then a thousand years before their pretended reformations ) had bin evidently confuted , as not only impossible , but as repugnant also to Scripture , which compares the Church to a Citty placed vpon a mountain , and a shining Sun &c. Their schollers vndertook to shew a succession of the Protestant Church ; and to that purpose some drunken Germans ( as any sober man must judge them to have bin by their writings ) whose names were Flaccus Illyricus , Joannes Vigandus , Matheus Judex , and Basilius Faber , met togeather in some warme stoue of Magdeburg , and there tipling took vpon them to Iudge of the writings , doctrin , and miracles of all the ancient Fathers from the first Century to the last : Of the very next Century to the Apostles these merry Companions were pleased to give this Censure in the very title of the Chapter , Inclinatio Doctrinae complectens peculiares & incommodas opiniones , stipulas , & errores Doctorum quae palam quidem , hoc est , scriptis tradita sunt . The declining of Christ and his Apostles doctrin , conteining the peculiar and incommodious opinions of Doctors , their errors , straw , and stubble , which were left publickly by them , that is to say , in their writings . And thus they Censure St. Iraeneus , Tertullian , Clemens Alexandrinus , Origen , Methodius , &c. saying they abuse and wrest the Scriptures intolerably , and grossly to favor popish opinions . These foure merry saxons reprehend Ignatius St. Iohn's scholler for vsing the phrase offerre & sacrificium im●olare : St. Cyprian for saying , sacerdotem vice Christi fungi , & Deo patri sacrificium offerre . St. Martial scholler of the Apostles saying , sacrificium Deo Creatori offertur in Ara. Martial in Ep. ad Burdegal : and so all other points , wherin Protestants and Catholicks do disagree , calling the antient Fathers stubble Doctors : the same they say of St. Basil , Lactantius , Gregory Nissen , Hilary , Nazianzen , Ambrose , Ephrem , and Hierom &c. and pretend their doctrin to be against Scripture , and the Miracles they relate to be either forged , or Diabolicall , or at least wrought by God to punish the credulity of Christians : But the errors of ancient condemned Hereticks , to be the true and sincere primitive faith , and produce no other proof for this their drunken foolery , but their own presumption , and privat interpretation of Scripture . Wherfore Valentia , ( a learned Jesuit ) compared these Magdeburgian Centurists , ( and indeed ti 's the case of all other Protestant writers ) to fellowes accused or suspected of theft , heresy , or any other crime , who willingly present themselves before the Magistrat , or Senat of the Citty ; And there first of all for their cleering , should bring in for witnesses against themselves the best , learned , most grave , and most honest men of all that Citty , to testify that they indeed are Thieves and hereticks , or the like , but yet having so don , would endeavor to refute all these again , by only saying , that these men so highly esteemed and commended for their integrity , spoke rashly and incommodiously , and knew not what they testified against them , or at least were in a dream ; and that the accused persons alone ought to be believed against them all . Might not these men be thought mad , or drunk , that would take such a course of defence ? And yet this is the course and case of the Magdeburgians , who citing first the gravest and most ancient Fathers of Christendom against themselves , do reiect the same again with this only Iest , and contumely , that they speak incommodiously , ignorantly , and were stubble Doctors , opiniones incommodae , naevi , stipulae , &c. Doctorum . Cyprian , say they ; speaketh without Scripture , Cyprian doth feign superstitiously , Cyprian doth Iudge naughtily , Tertullian doth erre . Few in ancient times did write perspicuously and with Iudgment . And of the whole multitude of Doctors of the second age , which was neerest to the Apostles , they are pleased to say , Albeit this age was neerest to the Apostles , yet the doctrin of Christ and his Apostles began to be not a litle darkned therin , and many monstrous and incommodious opinions are every where found to be spread by the Doctors therof . Then of the third age they say , the further that we go from the Apostles age , the more stubble we shall find to have bin added to the purity of the Christian doctrin . So that you may see what these foure drunken Germans judge of succeeding ages , of the greatest Doctors , and of the whole Catholick Church , and what credit their writings deserve . John Fox in his Acts and Monuments doth imitat the example of these Dutch drunken Centurists his Masters , not only in this impudent foolery , but also in their fraudulent dealing of concealing and cutting off many of the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers , least the multitude and cleerness of the authorities should give our Catholick cause too much credit : but he dissenteth from the Magdeburgians in saying , that the true Church of Christ is both visible , and invisible ; visible to them that are in her , and invisible to them that are out of her . So that according to Fox , heathens and heretiks , ( that are out of the Church ) can not see her , nor be converted , or convinced by those visible and supernatural signs , wherewith God hath made her remarkable and conspicuous , to the end that such as are not in her , may see her , and be converted ; a thing so much inculcated by the ancient Fathers , that they say very few , or none of the meanest capacities , can be excused by invincible ignorance from damnation . But let vs see what an Jmaginary Church of Protestants he fancies and builds in the Aire . And first we may observe that for the first twelve hundred years after Christ ( not finding as much as one Parish of Protestants in the whole world ) Fox doth not name any Church or Congregation but the Roman Catholick . But from Pope Innocentius the 3. time downwards , Fox beginneth , and bringeth forth for the true Church a rablement of condemned Sectaries , dissenting in opinions , and professions , not only from the Catholik , but also from the Protestant reformations ; and divided among themselves , cohering in no other form , or succession , but that one sprung vp by chance after the other , which ( as his adversary tells him ) he tieth togeather in a Catalogue , or list , as Sampson's foxes were , by the tailes . This list or Catalogue he setteth down in his protestation to the Church of England ; telling first that even during the time of the last 400. years from Pope Innocentius downwards , the true Church of Christ ( he meanes the Protestant which vntill then had bin wholy invisible ) durst not openly appeare in the face of the world , being oppressed by Tyrany . But yet that it remained from time to time visible in certain chosen members that not only bare secret good affection to sincere doctrin , but stood also in the defence of truth against the Church of Rome . But if his Protestant Church was invisible to them that were out of her , and by consequence to Papists , it needed not feare their Popish Tyrany , by which it could be no more prejudiced then Spirits , or men shut vp in enchanted Castles . In which Catalogue ( saith Fox ) first to pretermit Bertramus , and Beringarius which were before Pope Innocentius . 3. a learned multitude of sufficient witnesses heere might be produced , whose names are neither obscure , nor doctrin vnknown ; as Ioakim Abbot of Calabria ; Almaricus a learned Bishop that was judged an heretick for holding against Images : besides the Martyrs of Alsatia , of whom we read 100. to be burned by Pope Jnnocentius in one day . Add likewise to these the Waldenses , and Albigenses ; Besides divers others standing against the Pope an 1240. &c. Then he addeth to these some privat persons ( for the most part Catholiks ) as Dante 's the Jtalian Poet , Armacanus , Occham , &c. and finaly embraceth in his Church the Lollards , Wickleffians , Hussits , and all other Sectaries vntill he comes to Luther , Zuinglius , and Calvin , &c. all of them disagreeing in opinion , and every one pretending his own opinion to be the true Catholick faith . And this is the visible succession of Fox's Church , and the subject of his Ecclesiasticall History : wherby he pretends to no greater antiquity then of 400. years , nor can he prove any other vnity of faith , then their impugning the Pope and the Roman Catholick Doctrin , not vnanimously , but some one point , some another , disagreeing in most among themselves . I will briefly refute these his lyes , and reveale his fraud . Bertram was a Monk , lived and dyed a Roman Catholick above 800. years agone ; after his death some of his followers forged a litle pamphlet in his name , savoring or favoring the Berengarian heresy : but the fraud was presently discovered , and rejected . Berengarius recanted his heresy , and dyed a penitent Catholick . Ioachim an old man half out of his wits , was censured by the Pope for certain fond prophecies , and some errors also about the Blessed Trinity . Almaricus was never Bishop , but only of Fox his making ; he was condemned for many other heresies besides holding against Images , as for teaching there is no resurrection of Bodies at all . 2. That there is no paradise , nor hell . 3. That the body of Christ is not in the Sacrament . 4. That God spake as much in Ovid , as in Austin &c. As for his Martyrs in Alsatia , they who relate that story say : certain Hereticks to the number of 80. were burned in Argentina in Zwitzerland , for that they denyed fornication to be any sin at all , for that it is a natural act . &c. As for the Waldenses or poore men of Lions , they held doctrins which Protestants do not own . 1. That all carnal concupiscence and conjunction is lawfull , when lust doth burn vs. 2. That all oathes are vnlawfull . 3. That no Iudgment of life and death is permitted to Christians . 4. That the Creed of the Apostles is to be contemned &c. The Albigensis were another Sect of hereticks , rysing some 30. or 40. yeares after the Waldenses an . 1216. and their begining was at a Town called Albigium , neere Tolosa . They agreed with Protestants in the deniall of the Popes supremacy , purgatory , and some other points , but differed in many ; as first , they held with the Manichees that there are two Gods , one good and another evill . 2. They denyed all resurrection of the body : and that it was in vain for Christians to vse any kind of prayer at all ▪ & 3. That external baptism was an idle ceremony , and to be rejected as superfluous . 4. they held the transmigration of soules &c. As for Wickleffs opinions , by Fox his own relation ( pag. 400. ) they are different from the Protestant articles . And the Lollards held that Lucifer with the rest of his Angells were injuriously thrust out of heaven by Michael and his , and consequently to be restored again at the day of Iudgment ; and that Michael and his Angells are to be damned . That our Lady could not beare Christ and remain a Virgin. That God doth not punish any wickedness don vnder ground . And therfore in caves and Cellars they were accustomed to exercise all abomination . And Tritemius relates how one Gisla a yong woman of their sect , coming to be burned for heresy , being asked whether she were a Virgin or no ? she answered that above ground she was , but vnder ground not . These and the like impurities and impieties John Fox would fain impose vpon Protestants as the primitive Christianity , and doctrin of the true Church : the Wretches that suffered for maintaining these blasphemies , are Fox his Martyrs ; and their obstinacy in dying for these fooleries , togeather with the propagation of Luther and Calvin's sensual Tenets , and some dreams and fancies of crackt brain fellowes , are the Miracles of his Church . Three Miracles he notes in Luther , ; To stand against the Pope ( saith he ) was a great Miracle ; to prevaile against the Pope a greater ; to dye vntouched , may seem greatest of all &c. Which three Miracles he may find in Marcion , Mahomet , Cromwell , and in every Rebell or Malefactor that hath escaped the fire , or Gallowes , by fortune , favor , or faction . Then he addeth : another time as Luther was sitting in a certain place vpon his stoole , a great stone was in the vault , over his head where he did sit , which being stayd miraculously so long as he was sitting , as soon as he was vp , immediatly fell vpon the place where he satt , able to have crusht him all in peeces if it had light vpon him . Now if Fox did prove that this great stone was stayed miraculously from falling vpon Luther , something it were ; but how can he make that appeare ? he may as well maintain that every stone , or tyle falling from a decayed building , was miraculously stayed from falling vpon every man's head that passeth vnder , and escapes such casual and dayly dangers . But to the end you may be rightly informed of John Fox his judgment and spirit in discerning and describing supernaturall things ; I will relate a miracle or revelation that happned to himself , in his own words . And first you must know that he was resolved to prove by Scrip●ure that Pope Boniface 8. was Anti-Christ , and to that purpose quotes a Text out of the 20 , chapter of the Apocalips , and then maketh his account thus . The binding vp of Sathan after peace given to the Church ( counting from the 30. year of Christ ) was an . Dom. 294. which lasted for 1000. years , vntill an . 1294. about which year Pope Boniface 8. was made Pope &c. This he endeavored to confirm out of the 13. Chapter of the Apocalips , where it is sayd , that power was given by the dragon to the Beast ( to wit to Anti-Christ ) to speak blasphemy and to do what listeth him for 42. months ; which make ( as all men know ) 3. years and a half : and is the time allotted by S. t Iohn ( according to all the ancient Fathers ●nterpretations ) to the reign of Anti-Christ , in the end of the world : But John Fox will needs have the number of the 42. months to import 294. years , that is , every month 7. years , or ( as he fantastically calls it ) a sabbaoth of years ; for proof wherof he describes a revelation of his own thus . Because the matter ( saith he ) being of no small importance , greatly appertaineth vnto the publik vtility of the Church , and least any should misdoubt me herein to follow any privat interpretation of my own , I thought Good to communicat to the Reader that which hath bin imparted to me in the opening of these mysticall numbers in the foresaid Book of Revelation contained , by occasion as followeth &c. As I was in hand with these Histories &c. Being vexed and turmoiled in Spirit about the reckning of these numbers and years , it so happened vpon a Sunday in the morning , lying in my bed , and musing about these numbers ; suddenly it was answered to my mynd , as with a Majesty , thus inwardly saying within me , Thou fool , count these months by Sabbaoths as the weeks of Daniel are counted by Sabboths . The Lord I take to witness , thus it was ; wherupon thus being admonished , I began to recken the 42. months by Sabboths , first of the months , and ▪ that would not serve ; and then by Sabboths of years , and then I began to feele some probable vnderstanding , yet not satisfied herewith , I repaired to certain Merchants of my acquaintance . ( Of whom one is departed , a true and faithfull servant of the Lord , the other two yet alive , and witnesses hereof ) to whom the number of these foresaid months being propounded , and examined by Sabboths of years , the whole summ was found to surmount to 294. years , conteining the full and just time of the foresaid persecutions , neither more nor less &c. And thus you have the revelation made to John Fox , which he saith that he relateth vnto vs , for that we shall not misdoubt the truth therof , nor think that he followeth any privat Interpretation of his own , but that it came from God immediatly : as if every fanatik did not fancy and pretend the same . And this is the dream of John Fox in his bed . The second ridiculous point is that he went to three merchants to conferr this revelation and that they approved there of . The third point is open falshood , and folly , where he saith that this number of 294. conteineth the full and just time of the first persecutions of Christians vnder Pagan Emperors , neither more nor less ; seing that from Christ to the victory of Constantin against Maxentius , there are assigned by Eusebius 318. years , and yet did not this persecution cease then neither ; but continued vnder Licinius , and other Tyrants , for divers years after , see then how just these numbers fall out , neither more nor less : all which being considered , I find no one thing so true or credible in all this revelation ( saith the Author of the three Conversions , who confuted Fox his Acts and Monuments ) as those words of the spirit vnto him , saying , Thou fool : for ▪ that this maketh him a fool indeed by revelation . What credit Protestants give to Fox his revelations I do not know , but sure Iam , they give too much to his relations : notwithstanding the absurdity of the whole work in composing a Catholick Church of condemned hereticks , without subordination or succession ; and making wicked Malefactors , C●●●st's Martyrs ; the Protestant Clergy ( who could not be ignorant of so abominable a deceit ) cryed vp the book as a most godly and sincere history , and by publick authority endeavored to make it authentick , placing one in every Parish Church like a fifth Ghospell , recommending the reading therof to all persons both in their houses and Congregations . All this was don with design to make the Roman Catholick religion odious , and to exasperat the generality of the people against the Priests and professors of the same . And though judicious Readers may easily discern in perusing the Book , the weaknes of the Author , and of the cause he vndertakes to maintain , yet the vulgar sort are much taken with both , and doubt not but that Protestants have as much reason to put Catholiks to death , as Catholiks had to punish those mad fellows whom Iohn Fox calls Martyrs , and would needs dy rather then recall those blasphemies against God , or submit their fond opinions to that sense of Scripture which our Saviour and his Apostles delivered to the Church ; and had bin derived by the publick Testimony and vndeniable Tradition both of holy Fathers and general Councells from one age to an other vntill this present . To the end silly seduced souls may see their mistake , and how litle credit Iohn Fox his Protestant Church and Martyrs deserve , compared with the Roman-Catholick , I will set down his Calendar . SVBSECT I. The Foxian Calendar . THe number of all his saints are 456. wherof Bishops Martyrs 5. to wit , Cranmer , Ridley , Hooper , Farrar , and another whom I remember not . What litle credit they deserved , we have shewed heretofore , every one of them changing his religion with the times ; and their opinions having bin confuted as heresy in vniversities by publick disputations . Bishops Confessors 1. Virgin Martyrs none . Mayd Martyrs 3. Kings and Queens Martyrs and Confessors 1. ( who was Edward . 6. ) other men and women Martyrs 393. other men and women Confessors 5● . These were of divers sects and opinions , and contrary in many points one to the other , as for example , Waldesians and Albigensians 13. Lollards , and Wickleffians 36. Hussits and Lutherans 78. Zuinglians and Calvinists 268. Anabaptists , Puritans , and doubtfull of what sect . 59. Again of these were husbandmen , Weavers , sawyers , shoomakers , Curriers , smiths and other such like occupations 282. poore women and spinsters 64. Apostata Monks and Friars 25. Apostata Priests 38. Ministers 10. publick Malefactors , and condemned by the lawes for such 19. of age , running away from his Master , and finding an old English Bible ( sincerely translated you may be sure ) lying in 〈◊〉 the Chappell of Burntwood , fell to reading therof , and therby presently became a Protestant in divers opinions , and would needs burn for the same . Rawling White is recounted by Fox to have bin an old poore fisherman in Wales , and hearing of certain new fresh doctrin to be had out of the Scriptures in English , and grieved that himself was not able to read them , he put his litle boy to schoole to learn to read , which being somewhat instructed in that art , he caused him to read Scriptures vnto him , and profitted so much therin with in a litle time , that the old fisherman began to be a preacher , and so leaving his occupation , went vp and down Wales with his boy after him bearing the Bible , out of which he took vpon him to preach at every town and Tavern therof , seeking therby to pervert such as were no wiser then himself , nor could he be restrained from this folly vntill the Bishop of Cardiff apprehended him , whom afterwards they were forced to burn , for that he stood obstinat in his fantasticall opinions , which were extravagant , and ●●●rce agreed with any sect of Protestancy . We have seen heretofore how Laurence Sanders the married Priest seing a litle bastard of his , was so tenderly affected therunto , as in great vehemency of spirit he sayd to the standers by , what ma●● of my vocation , would not dy to make this litle boy legitimat , and prove his mother to be no whore ? And indeed such of the Protestant Clergy as were executed , were brought to the stake for the love they had to their wenches and bastards , and because they thought it was against their honor to recant . It 's remarkable that of some hundreds of Heresiarchs who have since the preaching of the Apostles risen against the doctrin of the Catholick Church , not above two or three ( wherof Ber●●garius was one ) would recall their opinions : no marvaile therfore if Cranmer , Latimer , Ridley &c. should be so obstinat . These motives and persons I say , well considered , rational Protestants will find no parity between Foxian and Catholick Martyrs , nor any reason to persecute Priests and Papists by their new Statuts , because Protestants , and sectaries were persecuted by Q. Mary , and other temporal Soveraigns according to the ancient Laws of all Christendom . They will find a parity between Fox his Martyrs and Fanaticks ; for the old Protestants were look't vpon in those days when they first began , as themselves look now vpon fanatiks and Quakers ; only with this difference , that these may complain of harder measure now received from their prelatick Brethren , then prelatick Protestants from papists ; because prelatiks have nothing against presbitery , 〈◊〉 &c. 〈◊〉 that their doctrin , and conventicles are prohibited by the tem●●●al l●●es of the Land , which can not be a competent rule of faith ; they can not condemn them by , any P●●●●stant general Councells , ancient Tradition , or by the primitive Protestant principles , or by any sense of Scripture ever yet held to be Catholick by the visible Church of Christendom ; wheras Roman Catholicks did , and may censure prelatick Protestants by every one of these rules , and do demonstra●● that their prelatick reformation is contrary to all the Testimonies and evidences of Christian and Catholick antiquity . SVBSECT II. VVillfull falsifications committed by Iohn Fox in his acts and Monuments . FOx having searched and inquired after Protestants , and their Church , and not finding any one person he durst call by that name for the first 1200. years after Christ , and that particularly here in England the Roman Catholick Religion ( as his learned adversary proves ) had continued the very same ( notwithstanding many temporal changes ) from our first conversion vntill K. Henry 8. and Q ▪ Elizabeths reigns , and was that very faith which we papists now profess ; rather 〈◊〉 Fox would confess this truth , he resolved to falsify and corrupt venerable Bede's Ecclesiastical History , and a provincial Synod of the English Clergy held at Hartford by Theodo●●● Arch-bishop of Canterbury , in the year 673. the decrees wherof he doth so alter , that comparing them with themselves ●s they are in St. Bede ( whom Fox pretends to follow ) they do not seem to be the same : and this he doth also to discredit the Catholick Church of England , charging it with decreeing a condemned heresy about keeping of Easter . The first decree of this synod was ( saith Fox ) that Easter day should be vnformally kept and observed throughout the whole realm vpon one certain day , videlicet Prima 14. Luna mensis prioris . That is to say , vpon the first 14. moon , or day of the moon of the first month , to wit of March : which is just as the Iewes do observe it , contrary to the Councell of Nice . Well then , let vs see what the words of St. Bede himself are in this synodical Decree , Primum Capitulum , saith he , relating it out of the words of the Canons themselves , vt Sanctum diem Paschae in communi omnes servemus , Dominica post 14. Lunam primi mensis . The first article of our decrees ( saith the Councell ) is , that we do all in common observe the holy day of Easter vpon the sunday next after the fourteenth moon of the first month . This is quite contrary to that which Fox relateth , he putting out Dominica which maketh or marreth all the matter , and then for post decimam quartam lunam , written at large in Bede , he putteth in , prima 14. luna , short in numbers , only to make it more obscure , adding prima of his own , and putting out post , from the words of this Councell , more over he addeth of his own , these words , vpon one certain day , which the Decree hath not , meaning therby that this 14. day must be observed with such certainty as it may not be altered or differred to any Sunday , in which consisteth the heresy of the Quarta decimans , and therby to make the ancient Church of England in St. Theodores time , guilty of that heresy . To favour the doctrin and practice of Protestants in putting away their wives for fornication ▪ and marrying an other , he quotes the tenth Decree of the same synod , and sets down such words only as seemed to authorise his error ; and then , breaketh off , as if the Decree ended there . Thus he citeth the Canon , Tenthly , that no man put away his wife for any cause , except for fornication , 〈◊〉 the rule of the Ghospell : and there stops : wheras the Canon is , Nullus conjuge●● propriam nisi ( vt sanctum Evangelium docet ) fornicationis causa relinquat . Quod si quisquam propri●m expulerit ●●njugem legiti●o sibi matrimonio conjunctam , si Christianus esse recte voluerit , nulli ▪ 〈…〉 : sed ita permaneat●aut propriae reconcilietur Conjugi . Let no man leave his own wife , but only , as the holy Ghospell teacheth vs , for the cause of fornication ▪ and if any man should put away his wife , that is joyned to him by lawfull marriage , if he will be a true Christian , let him not marry another , but either remain so in continency , or be reconciled to his own wife again . Hee wasteth much paper in discrediting Pope Gregory the 7. by Protestants called Pope Hildebrand ) whom notwithstanding , the chief writers of his time exceedingly commend for a Saint , and a learned man ; as you may see in Bellarmin . But Fox saith , Antoninus writeth that Hildebrand , as he lay a dying , desired one of his Cardinals to go to the Emperour , and desire him forg●●●ness , absolving both him and his partners from excommunication &c. Which he relateth to the end his Reader might think that the Pope went against his conscience in excommunicating the Emperour ; and that St. Antoninus believed the same story to be true : wheras St. Antoninus his words are , that it was reported how Gregory 7. had sent a Cardinal to the Emperour , and to all the Church , to wish him Indulgence ; which yet for many causes ( saith Antoninus ) I do not believe to be true . These words honest Fox omitteth . And it is recorded by an Impartiall German Author that Pope Gregory 7. last words , lying on his death-bed in Salerno , were these , Dilexi Iustitiam 〈…〉 iniquitatem , propteria morior in exilio &c. I have loved 〈◊〉 and hated iniquity , and for this do I dy in banishment . Being driven away from his Sea by the violence of the Emperour . I read and find ( saith Fox ) that in a Councell holden ●t Rome by Pope Hildebrand , and other Bishops , they did 〈◊〉 three things . 1. That no Priests hereafter should marry wives . ● . Th●● all such as were marryed should be divorced . 3. That none h●●●fter should be admitted to the order of Priesthood , but should 〈◊〉 perpetual chastity . But he quoteth not one Author for 〈◊〉 three lyes ; and in the lines immediatly following , where 〈◊〉 down in English the Copy of Pope Gregory 7. Bull 〈◊〉 this matter , he sufficiently proves his own sayings to be lyes : for thus saith the Bull : If there be any Priests , Deacons or 〈◊〉 deacons , that will still remain in the sin of fornication ( which 〈◊〉 is not applicable to marriage ) we forbid them the 〈…〉 , till they amend and repent . But if they persever in their sin , we charge that none presume to hear their service . And ●●cordingly it 〈◊〉 the Canon . Officium Symoniacorum , & in 〈…〉 , scienter nullo modo recipiatis . And Tritemius relateth the matter thus . Pope Gregory forbad men to hear the m●st of such Priests , as were known to have Concubines . But Fox 〈◊〉 other Protestants would needs face vs down that Hildebr●●d was the first who prohibited Priests marriage : wheras Origen above 1400. years ago tells even of the Greek Church : 〈◊〉 solius est offerre Sacrificium qui perpetuae se devoverit castitati . To him only belongeth to offer sacrifice , who hath vowed himself to p●●petual chastity . And Eusebius one of the first Councell of Nice , 〈◊〉 of them who were made Priests , being married , that it becommeth them to contain themselves for the time to come from all dealing with wives . And Marianus Scotus speaking of Gregory 7. and of that Roman Synod , being in his own time , saith : Pope Gregory 7. having made a Synod , did according to the decree of St. Peter , and St. Clem●●t his successor , and of other holy fathers , forbid vnto Clergy men &c. to have wives , or dwell with women . And Pope Alexander 2. and Pope Nicholas . 2. Predecessors to Gregory 7. made the same decree that Hildebrand did , as appeareth in their Canons yet ex●ant . It were both endless and needless to set down all John Fox his willfull lyes , the fraudulent and ●●olish tricks and devices wherwith he and the Protestant Clergy abuse the layty and illiterat people , making 〈◊〉 believe that in all ages there hath bin a Church teaching and professing the Protestant doctrin : and because some of the hereticks ( to 〈◊〉 ●●ckleffians , Hussits , 〈◊〉 Lollards ) whom he names Martyrs , and witnesses of his Evangelical truth , were condemned not 〈◊〉 by the Church ▪ but by Acts of Parlia●●nt , he tell●●h you that though the statu●s 〈…〉 persons , preaching divers sermons , 〈◊〉 herelies , 〈◊〉 doctrin , and 〈◊〉 errors , to the blemish of Christian faith &c ▪ yet notwithstanding whosoever readeth histories , and the 〈…〉 of 〈…〉 see these to be no false teachers , 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 &c. and to have taught no other 〈…〉 then now 〈…〉 their own preachers in 〈…〉 . And 〈…〉 Sr John 〈…〉 is produced by Fox as a witness for the Protestant 〈◊〉 and a chief member of that Church , and he in his professi●● 〈◊〉 faith , said ▪ 〈…〉 Church I believe to be divided into three sorts , or compan●●● 〈…〉 now in heaven &c. the second sort are in 〈…〉 of God ; and a full delivera●●e of paine . The 〈…〉 earth &c. Iohn Fox to this speech of Purgatory addeth 〈◊〉 parenthesis of his own , as if it had bin part of Oldcastles profession of faith ( if any such 〈…〉 Scriptures ) fearing his Reader might take notice how Sr. 〈…〉 was no Protestant . And such frauds he vseth in most other occasions , as you may see in the three Conver●●●ns of England writ to confute his acts and Monuments ; and from whence we have borrowed most of what hath bin sayd concerning Fox and his Martyrs . Now we will treat of others no less fals and deceitfull in maintaining the Protestant Religion . SVBSECT . III. Doctor Chark's falsification of St. Austin , and how he excuseth Luther's doctrin of the lawfulness of adultery , and incest . DOctor Chark was so great a pillar of protestancy in Q. Elizabeths days , that he was thought the fittest man to dispute against learned Campian in the Tower ; but 〈◊〉 behaved himself in that occasion very insolently , igno●●●● , and vncharitably , he writ a ●ook in answer to the 〈◊〉 , which was published of himself , Luther , Calvin , Beza , 〈◊〉 ●any other falsifications of Mr. Chark , to defend 〈◊〉 Protes●●nt doctrin , his adversary objects ( pag. 122 . ● that 〈…〉 St. Augustin's Text about the doctrin of con●●●scence ▪ where the Censure had alleadged besides the Testi●●ny of many other Fathers , one most plain out of that great 〈◊〉 saying ; concupiscence is not sin in the regenerate , if consent 〈◊〉 yeelded vnto her for accomplishment of vnlawfull works : Mr. 〈◊〉 alleadgeth another authority out of St. Austin in the same 〈◊〉 ▪ that doth , as he says , expound his meaning ; for thus 〈◊〉 writeth : Augustin's place is expounded by himself afterward , saying , concupiscence is not so forgiven in baptism , that it is not sin , 〈◊〉 that it is not imputed as sin ; where the word sin in the first place is put in by Mr. Chark ; for that St. Austin's words are , D●●itti Concupiscentiam carnis in Baptismo , non ut non sit , sed ut in peccatum non imputetur ; quamvis reatu suo jam soluto , manet 〈◊〉 ; Concupiscence is forgiven in Baptisme , not so that it is not ( or remain not in the regenerat ) but that it be not imputed as SVBSECT . IV. Falsifications of Cranmer and Peter Martyr against Transubstantiation , and the Sacrifice of the Mass &c. AFter that Cranmer had bin publikly convinced both by Scripture , and Fathers , 〈◊〉 his disputation at Oxford ( ●s will appeare to any that will read even his friend 〈◊〉 concerning that subject ) the Catholick disputants obje●●ed falsifications , and corruptions of his in the Books which 〈◊〉 had composed against the real presence ; one was , that wheras 〈◊〉 Martyr , who flourished in the beginning of the second 〈◊〉 , answering to them who sayd the Christians adored bread , 〈◊〉 , we do not take this for common bread and drink , but like as ●●sus Christ our Saviour Incarnat by the word of God , had flesh and 〈…〉 Salvation ; even so we be taught the food where-with our 〈◊〉 and blood is nourished by alteration , when it is consecrated by the 〈◊〉 of his prayer instituted by him , to be the flesh and blood of the same Jesus Incarnat . Cranmer thus translated the words of that ancient Father , Bread water and wine are not to be taken as other 〈◊〉 and drinks be , but they be ordained purposly to give thanks to 〈◊〉 , and therfore be called Eucharistia , and be called the Body and blood of Christ , and that it is lawfull for none to eat and drink of them but that profess Christ ; and live according to the same ; and yet that meat and drink is changed into our flesh and Blood , and nourisheth our bodys : After Cranmer's confessing that the former Catholicks Translation was the right , he excuseth his villany , saying , he did not translate Justin word by word , ( wheras he set down all as Justin's words ) but only gave the meaning ; let any Protestant be Iudge whether he gave Iustin's meaning . You have corrupted Emissenus ( saith Doctor Weston to Cranmer ) for insteed of cibis sati●ndus , that is , to be filled hath pro omni paena , for all pain , your Book omitteth many things there . Thus you see Brethren ( saith Doctor Weston ) the truth stedfast and invincible : you see also the craft and deceit of hereticks . And thus concludeth Fox himself the disputation with Cranmer . Doctor Chedley did also object to Cranmer his corruption of St. Hillaries words , putting in , vero sub Mysterio , for verè sub mysterio , by which the whole sense was altered ; because verè sub mysterio sheweth that we do truly receive in the mystery of the Sacrament . Christ's flesh and blood ; and vero sub mysterio , proves only the reality or verity of a Sacrament or a mystery , not of the body and blood of Christ. To this after many excuses Cranmer answered , that the change of one letter for an other was but ● small matter . But Weston told that Pastor was a Bishop , and ●●stor a Baker , and yet there was but one letters change . As for Peter Martyr's falsifications they appear sufficiently 〈◊〉 the places themsel●●● which Fox alleadgeth for him out of 〈◊〉 or twelve Fathers , in his disputations at Oxford an . 1549. wherof the reader will scarce find one truly cited in all respects , but that either the words next going before , or immediatly following ( making wholy against Protestants ) are pur●●sely left out , and others put in , or mistranslated ; as hath bin evidently demonstrated part . 3. c. 19. & 20. & 21. of the ●●eatise of the three conversions of England ; and therfore we ●●●●eare what every one may see in a Book no less obvious then profitable . SECT VI. How some Protestant 〈◊〉 in Q. Elizabeths time , seing their fellowes were proved Falsifiers , waved the Testimonies of the ancient Fathers , and 〈◊〉 the others continued their former course of falsifying both Fathers and Councells . THE discovery of Iewell 's 〈◊〉 other mens falsificati●●● , made some Protestant writers more wary , and take an other course for defence of their Religion ▪ which was to recurr to the letter of Scripture , con●●●ning the true sense therof delivered by 〈…〉 ▪ and practise of the Catholick Church , doctrin 〈…〉 primi●●ve Fathers , and General Co●●cells ; but these vpstarts knowing their new fancies 〈…〉 agreable therunto Insteed of the ancient faith of Christendom , they resolved to mai●●ain 〈◊〉 condemned heresies , following in this manner of proceeding their first Apostles Luther , Calvin , &c. who would admit of nothing but the 〈◊〉 of Scripture interpreted by themselves , after an 〈…〉 manner . We will instance 〈◊〉 three , Doctor Wi●aker , Arch-bishop VVhitgift , and Doctor Fulk , omitting many others . Doctor VVhitaker in his answer to Doctor Sanders demonstrations ( pag. 21. ) saith , we repose no such confidence in the Fathers writings , that we take any certain proof of Religion from them , because we place all our faith and Religion , not in human , but in divine authority : if therfore you bring vs what some Father hath taught , or what the Fathers vniversaly all together have delivered , the same ( except it be approved by Testimony of Scriptures ) it availeth nothing , it convinceth nothing . For , the Fathers are such witnesses as they have also need of the Scriptures to be their witnesses , if deceived by error . &c. And Yet this same Whitaker vndertook to maintain Bishop Jewell's Challenge by Fathers , and Councells . Archbishop Whitgift was no less but rather more injurious ; for in his defence of the Prelatick Church against the Puritan Cartwright ( pag. 402. & 473. ) he is not ashamed to say , that all the learned Bishops and learned writers of the Greek and latin Church , for the most part , where spotted with the doctrin of free will , Invocation of Saints &c. And thence inferrs that in no age since the Apostles time any company of Bishops held so perfect and sound doctrin in all points , as himself , and his fellow Bishops of England . To what impiety and impudency are men driven by defending heretical novelties ? Doctor Bristow alleadgeth the Testimonies of S. Epiphanius , S. Hierom , and S. Austin , condemning the heresies of Aerius , Iovinian , and Vigilantius against fasting days commanded by the Church , prayer for the dead , prayer to Saints , against the honoring of their Reliques , against preferring Virginity before Matrimony , &c. Doctor Fulk answereth that Epiphanius and Augustin were deceived in recording those for Heresies which are not ; and that Hierom rather raild then reasoned ; and that Vigilantius was a good man , and his opinions sound . 〈◊〉 Chrysostom is alledged for the Mass , saying the Apostles ●●creed , that in the Sacrifice of the Altar there should be made prayers for the departed . Fulk answereth : where he saith it was decreed by the Apostles , he must pardon us for crediting him , because he cannot shew it us out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles . And divers other Fathers being quoted to confirm St. Chryso●●●m's testimony , Fulk says : who is witness that this is the Tradition of the Apostles ▪ you will say Tertullian , Cyprian , Austin , Hierom , and a great many more : But I would learn why the Lord would not have this set forth by Mathew , Mark , Luke , or Paul ? why they were not chosen scribes hereof , rather then Tertullian , Cyprian , Hierom Austin , and others such as you name . This desperat shift of slighting the ancient Fathers Testimony was the ordinary way of answering Catholick Books for many years : but some of the Protestant Writers observing how the wise and well meaning persons of their own Religion were not satisfied therewith , and that there could no reason be given why any Christian should rather believe a Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin , Beza , Peter Martyr , Thomas Cranmer , Chark , Fulk , Whitaker , or VVhitgift , then a Cyprian , a Tertullian , Basil , Hierom , Chrysostom , an Ambrose , or an Austin , especially in a matter of fact ( such as our controversies are , to wit , whether the Apostles and the true Church taught this or that sense of Scripture , and doctrin ) seeing these holy and lea●●ed Fathers lived in the primitive times , and more then 12. or 13. hundred years neerer to the Apostles , then the aforesayd Protestant Doctors , and by consequence might be more easily and exactly informed . Some of the Protestant Writers , I say , observing how much their cause was prejudiced by this conte●●●● of antiquity ▪ and Fathers , resolved 〈◊〉 more to try Iewell 's Method , and see whether their impudency in falsifying , might have better success then his , either for want of courage and means in Catholicks to manifest their corruptions , or for the hopes they had to discredit our Testimony , and suppress such 〈◊〉 as we should venture to print and publish against themselves , and the states Religion which they maintained . But no sooner came any Protestant Book to sight , but by God's assistance it was answered with all possible speed , and it's falsifications discovered , and some of our Catholick writers made it their business to manifest the frauds and four beries of Protestant Controversor● ; one of ours say's , To declare that this spirit of fals dealing , ioyned with necessity , and misery of their bad cause , is common not only vnto him , ( Morton ) but vnto many of his brethren , and must needs be vnto all them , whensoever they take pen in hand to defend the same , for that one ly cannot be defended without an other ; therfore I do produce ten several witnesses , two of them called Bishops , M. r Iewell , and M. r Horn ; five inferior Ministers , M. r Iohn Fox , M. r Calfeild , M. r Hanmer , M. r Chark , and M. r Perkins ; and might have named five times more , three lay men also and Knights , that have written against us , Sir Francis Hastings , S. r Philip Mornay , and S. r Edward Cook , alledging not one , but sundry examples out of each of their works ; and might inlarge myself to a volume in that argument , if I would say what I have found in their and their Brethrens works in this kind &c. Any man who desires to be rightly informed in this important matter of the Protestant Clergys true , or fals dealing in religion , may peruse and conferr the Books on both sides , I will not detain my Reader longer with Q. Elizabeths Writers , being to treat of the same again , when we answer the like objections of Protestants against Catholick Writers : yet J can not omit to let him see in one person the hypocrisy of many , in one , I say , that professeth ( as commonly they all do ) so much sincerity in treating of Controversies , as might seem to excuse the necessity of any further inquiry , if his fourberies had not bin manifested to the world , not only by his accusers , but by his own answers ; so weake and impertinent they are , that they conclude nothing but his obstinacy in ●●thering to his former errors , though he be evidently convicted of being an Impostor . The writer I speak of is VVillet , who ( as you have seen heretofore ) makes this protestation . I take God to witness , before whom I must render account &c. that the same faith and religion which I defend , is taught in the more substantial points by those Histories , Councells , Fathers , that lived within five or six hundred years after Christ. And pag. 264. ) it is most notoriously evident that for the grossest points of popery , as Transubstantiation , Sacrifice of the Mass , worshiping of Images , Iustification by works , the supremacy of the Pope , prohibition of Priests marriage , they ( Papists ) have no shew of any evidence from Fathers within five hundred years after Christ. And yet this very man being pressed with St. Augustin , and the Church in his time holding of popish doctrin , doth grant it , and says , that can not prejudice protestancy , for that the pure time of the primitive Church extended not much beyond the age of the Apostles . So that he whom before you heard take God to witness that the Church was so pure for the first five or 6. hundred years , that Papists had no colour for their Tenets , in Fathers , or Councells , now doth confess not only that St. Austin , but the whole Church was infected with popery not long after the age of the Apostles . The honest Willet divideth his book of answer and satisfaction into foure several parts , in the first he setteth down 13. vntruths objected by his adversary as notoriously wilfull ; in the second as many objected contradictions ; in the third , the like number of falsifications of Authors , and in the fourth thirteen corruptions of Scripture : I will mention but two or three , and leave my Reader to judge of the man's honesty by his answers ▪ pag. 29. his adversary doth object against him these words of his , taken out of his Synopsis pag. 609. The Mass promiseth sufficient redemption to the wicked that have spent their life in drunkeness , adultery &c. if they come to the Church and hear Mass , and take holy Bread , and holy water , &c. though they never pray , nor repent , nor hear the word preached . Which words being confessed by Mr. Willet to be his , his adversary doth accuse him of willfull lying , or intolerable ignorance , for that in no Roman Catholick writer in the world , shall he find this proposition , or the parts therof . Willet answers not to the particular charge , but taketh occasion for more then a dozen pages together , to prove that the Roman doctrin doth not favor virtue , or good manners , more then the Protestant , nor yet so much ; alledging for his proof , that , to hold the Commandements to be impossible , and that the first motions of concupiscence be sin without consent , and that a man is sure of his predestination by faith ; and the like Protestant doctrins , are causes of much virtue among them , as the contrary doctrins held by Papists , are causes of wicked life on their parts . So he answereth to his accusation with so manifest an absurdity as to say , that men are inclined to observe God's Commandments by holding it impossible to keep them , wheras ( if they be not mad ) that principle must dissuade them from attempting any such observation , seeing it is a madness to endeavor an impossibility , and to believe that God doth command things impossible . Of their assurance of predestination , and justification , we have proved heretofore , how inconsistent it is with good works , moral virtue , the salvation of the soul , and tranquillity of the state . And as for their making the first motions of concupiscence a sin without consent , it is the sink and source from whence Protestants suck most of their errors . From hence they inferr , that all the best actions of man are infected with mortal crime , because they pass through the stinking Channell of human corruption , hence they deny the merit of good works wrought by grace , hence the impossibility of fulfilling God's Commandments for that every action of the just is of it 's own nature a transgression of his Laws . Hence no inherent but a vain imputative Justice , hence the justification by faith alone ; hence no freedom of will to perform any morall good ; no liberty in man to cooperat with God when he first moveth , awaketh and calleth him out of the state of sin &c. But let 's return from Willet's absurdities to his falsifications . I let pass his falsifying S. Bernard to make him say , that the Pope is Antichrist , by applying the words of the Apocalyps . The beast to which a mouth was given speaketh blasphemies , doth sit in Peter's Chaire ; it being evident that Saint Bernard applyed those words not to any true Pope but to an Anti-Pope called Petrus Leonis , because he entred by violence into that Sea. I likewise pretermit his fraud and folly in saying , your doctrin in prohibiting and restraining marriage to your Clergy , how it helpeth to holiness ▪ 〈◊〉 Bernard w●ll 〈◊〉 saying . Tolle de Ecclesia 〈…〉 &c. Wheras S. Bernard speaks in defence of the 〈…〉 against 〈◊〉 Hereticks of his time 〈…〉 never dreamed 〈…〉 marry , himself having bin a votary and vnto 〈◊〉 Monk. Letting 〈◊〉 I say th●se , I will only mention how he accuseth all Catholicks of heresy , for defending the lawfulness of the vow of voluntary 〈…〉 against vs , that it was the heresy of the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 , to persuade men to cast away their riches ; S. Austin and all other Authors tell vs , that the sayd Pelagians and Maniche●s were not condemned of 〈◊〉 for persuading men to give away their riches , but for maintaining that all rich men were bound to forsake all their riches , 〈◊〉 that otherwise they could not go to heaven : But now 〈…〉 shew the sincerity of the English Protestant Clergy since the beginning of King Iames his reign vntill this present . SECT . VII . Falsifications and frauds of the prelatick English Clergy to maintain protestancy , since the begining of King Iames. SVBSECT I. Their corruptions of Scripture ( for maintaining their caracter ) continued in the Bible , though commanded by King Iames it should be reviewed and corrected . THe English Protestant Translations of Scripture had bin so cryed down as fals and corrupt , by Catholicks , and acknowledged such by many learned Protestants , that King Iames commanded a review and reformation of those Translations which had passed for God's word in King Edward 6. and Qveen Elizabeths days ; the work was vndertaken by the Prelatick Clergy , not so much for zeale of truth , as for a shew of compliance with his Majesty , who protested in the Conference at Hampton-Court , he never had seen an English Bible truly translated . And because the Catholicks insisted much vpon two main points in their former Controversies , wherin they observed the illiterat sort of people had bin most abused by the English Translators of Scripture , to wit , by their translating Jmages for Idols , and Ordination by Election , for Ordination by imposition of hands , ( by the first wherof the Roman Catholick Religion was generally held by the simple sort to be Idolatry ; and by th● second ▪ the Protestant Prelatick , Clergy were mistaken for Priests and Bishops , 〈…〉 never had received any Episcopal , Ordination ▪ but what they challenged by the Queenes 〈…〉 , election , and by an act of Parliament 8. Eliz . 1. ) because I say these two ●●●sifications were so palpably fraudul●nt , and so frequently objected , they were for meer shame corrected in the new Translation , se● forth by order of King James . And then appeared the forged Register of Mason to supply the 〈◊〉 of that falsification , and to make the world believe , that the first Protestant Bishops , Parker , Jewell , Horn , 〈◊〉 had bin consecrated by imposition of Episcopal hands with great solemnity , and all due formalities at Lambeth : wheras for the space of above ●0 . years before that time ( as hath 〈◊〉 said ●●●tofore ) no man could tell , or hear where , or by whom these men had bin made Bishops , ( for at the Nags-head they were rejected by L●●daf ; and S●ories consecrating form ( in the same place ) was ridiculous ) notwithstanding that it had bin , the greatest controversy between Catholicks and Protestants , and the name of the place , and 〈◊〉 continually demanded in print . If an authentick Register ▪ 〈◊〉 my credible witness had bin produced when some such 〈◊〉 , was called for by D. r Harding , and 〈…〉 50. ye●rs before Mason appeared in print , the dispute had bin ended 〈…〉 great honour of the Prelaticks , and Confusion of the 〈◊〉 : but they were answered only with an Act of Parliament ( 8. Eliz. 1. ) declaring that whatsoever had bin don in virtue of the great soule of England and the Queens supremacy , was well don , and should stand legal , and valid . The falsification of Images for Idols was corrected t' is true in the new Testament , but in the ould ( exod . 20.4 . ) and in the ten Commandments , and Catechisms for Children , they 〈…〉 corruptions , translating graven Images , for graven thing , against all Texts , Hebrew , Greek , and La●●n ; for that the hebrew word pesel is the very same that sculp●●● in latin , that is , a graven or carved thing , and the Greek 〈◊〉 eid●●lon an Jdol . So that by this fals and wicked practise , 〈◊〉 Protestant Clergy doth still endeavor to discredit the Ro●●n Catholick Religion , and therby continue their own au●●ority , and Beneficies , making the layty believe ( contrary to their own consciences , and corrections in the new Testa●●●● ) that popery is Idolatry , for admitting worship of Images ; 〈◊〉 if Image and Idol were the same thing , and equally forbidden by Scripture , and God's Commandements . To confirm their flocks in this persuasion they tell them the reason why Catholicks leave out some repetitions of the first Commandement in their Catechismes , is , because they know that to worship Images , is against Scripture ; wheras in our Latin and many vulgar Roman Catechismes , nothing is omitted ; and in such short ones , wherin all the words are not expresly mentioned , it 's don only , not to charge Childrens memories with more , then with the substance of every Commandement ; and the substance of the first consists in the first ●ords therof . In the last Commandement also we put in brief only these words . Thou shalt not covet an other man's goods , Omitting Oxes , and Asses &c. If our design had bin to corrupt 〈◊〉 conceale the words , and sense of Scripture in the first com●●●dement ( in favor of Images ) we would not have set down the Text so cleerly in any of our larger Catechismes , and much less in our Latin and vulgar Translations of the Bible . Hence it followeth that we do not take away the second Commandement , as Protestants object , who begin the second precept from these words . Thou shalt not make to thee a graven thing &c. which we make part of the first , and with S. Austin ( q. 71. in Exodum ) we divide the first table into three precepts directing vs to God ; the second into seaven , belonging to our selves vpon this reason among others , because to make or have any graven thing or similitude of any creature to the end to adore it as God , were indeed to have a strange God , which is forbid in the first words of the first Commandment ; and so all that followeth to the commination and promise , forbiddeth false Gods , and appeareth to be but one precept in substance . But the desire and internal consent to adultery , and theft , differ altogeather as much as the external acts of the same sins ; and therfore seing adultery and theft , are forbidden by two distinct precepts , the prohibition of the internal desire doth also require two precepts . To maintain their heresies against the single life of Priests , as also against the excellency of Virginity , vowes of Chastity , free will , and the possibility of Keeping God's Commandments ▪ they corrupt the Text of Math. 19.11 . translating contrary to all Copies both Hebrew , Greek , and Latin. All men can not receive this saying , in steed of all men do not receive this saying ▪ for we may have the gift of continency if we will : S. Austin ( lib. de gratia & lib. arbit . c. 4. ) faith , whosoever have not this gift given them , it is either for that they will not have it , or that they fulfill not that which they will ; and they that have this gift or attain to this word , have it of God and their own freewill . And Origen explaining this very text ( tract . 7. in Math. ) saith , this gift is given to all that ask for it . To authorise the Protestant error of Iustification and Salvation by faith only , set down as an article of saith in the 39. of the Church of England , they translate Luc. 18 . 4● . Receive thy sight , thy faith hath saved thee ; insteed of Receive thy sight , thy faith hath made thee whole ; it being cleere that the blind man who answered Christ's question , desired corporal sight , and that our Saviour accordingly granted what he asked in the same manner , and with the same words he did to others that he cured of the same disease ; ( Mark. 10.52 . Luke 8.48 . & 50. ) which places are corrected and rightly translated , but as they did in the translation of Images for Idols , leave some places vncorrected , so they thought fit to do in this particular , to the end some places or other of their Scripture might remain still ●●●tore against Popery : as ( Rom. 11.4 , ) they translate for B●al ; the Jmage of Baal &c. Acts 19.24 . they translate for Temples of Diana , Shrines ▪ 〈◊〉 make shrines of saints Bodies , and of other Reliques , odious ; ●nd ( vers . 35. ) they add Image to the Text ( which is not in any Copy Greek , or Latin ) to condemn the worship of Images . And ( Chap. 20. v. 28. ) to attribute the rule and Government of the Church to the King principaly , and more properly then to Bishops , Insteed of rule the Church of God , they translate take heed therfore vnto your selves and to all the flock ▪ over the which the holy Ghost hath made you overseers , to feed the Church of God. And with the same fraud and flattery they translate ( 1. Pet. 2.13 . ) Be subject to every human Creature for God , thus , Submit your selves to every ordinance of man for the Lords sake , as though it were all one to be subject and obey every temporal Prince in things lawfull , and to obey every ordinance , and by consequence in spiritual , as well as in temporal maters . In the same place also wheras in K. Edward 6. dayes the English Bible had ; To the King as chief head ; in Q. Elizabeth ( who affected not the title of head of the Church ) as having preemi●●●● ; because King Iames insisted much vpon a spiritual supremacy , they translated to the King as supreme . To maintain this error that Priests may have wives , they translate . 1. Cor. 9. v. 5. for woman , wife , as if St. Paul had bin married , wheras it is evident in the 7. chapter of this same Epistle v. 8. that he was not married , I say therfore to the vnmarried and widdows , it is good for them if they abide even as I. And the same word which here they translate wife , in cap. 7. v. 1. they translate woman , because St. Paul saith there it is good for a man not to touch a woman , but here to translate wife was not for their purpose . In the same Epistle cap. 11. v. 2. contrary to both Greek , and Latin , they translate for Keep the Traditions as I have delivered them to you ; Keep ordinances &c. 1. Cor. 15. v. 10. they add to this text , I have laboured more abundantly then all they , yet not I , but the grace of God with me , they add , I say , the grace of God ( which is ) with me . 〈◊〉 that where the Apostle rather sayd , the grace of God laborred whi●h him , and consequently he with the grace of God which proveth 〈…〉 , they by adding ( which is ) to the Text , 〈◊〉 have it seeme that the Apostle did nothing at all , but was moved like a thing without li●e or will , and thus they prove by Scripture the Protestant errors . Ephesians 1. v. 6. For , he hath gratified vs , 〈◊〉 ●●lde vs gratious , or conduct us with gra●e ; they translate , 〈◊〉 hath made vs accepted in the beloved , against inherent grace ▪ in favour of the Protestant error of imputative justice . Epist. Philip. cap. 4. v. 3. For , sincere Companion help those women &c. They translate true yoke-fellow help those woman , t● make men believe that St. Paul had recommended those persons to his wife who indeed had none 1. Cor. 7. v. 8. Nothwithstanding the discipline of the Church of England is contrary to that of the Calvinists , because reason o● state , and the constitution of Parliaments requireth Bishops ; yet the doctrin therof is Zuinglian , and Calvinian in most points , and Doctor Abbots Archbishop of Canterbury ( who had the greatest hand in correcting the Bible by King Iames his order ) was Calvin's great admirer , as may be seen in his books . One of Calvin's blasphemies against Christ is , that he feared and suffered the paines of hell , nay and despaired vpon the Cross ▪ ( and in that sense doth explain his descent into hell , admitting of no other ) That this blasphemy might be authorised by Scripture , Cranmer , and the whole Clergy and Church of England after him , in their edition of Tyndal , and Coverdales Bible an . 1562. in the epistle to the Hebrews chap. 5. vers . 7. corrupt St. Paul's words speaking of Christ praying vpon the cross , He was heard for his reverence , thus , he was heard in that he feared , to maintain their blasphemous paradox that our Saviour should have feared and felt the paines of hell vpon the Cross. To confirm also this wicked doctrin , and confute Lyn●● 〈◊〉 j●●trum , and Purgatory , Dr. Abbots , Archbishop of Cant. and the other Translators of the Bible , corrupt 1. Pet. 3. v. 〈…〉 for wheras the words of Scripture are quickened ( or alive ) 〈…〉 , ( or soule ) in the which spirit comming he preached 〈…〉 also that were in prison : They translate , quickned by the spirit ; by which also he went , and preached vnto the spirits 〈…〉 : This Translation was so gross that Doctor Montagu● , ●ishop of Chichester and No●wich , reprehended for it Sir Hen●● will , to whose care the translating of St. Peter's epistle committed ; but Sir Henry Savill told him plainly that Doctor Abbots , and Dr. Smith Bishop of Glocester , corrupted and altered the Translation of this place , which himself had sincerly performed . In pursuance of this their Calvinian he●●sy , and corruption , they pervert the Text of Gen. 37. v. 35. translating graue for hell ; Protestants denying more places for soules after this life then heaven for the just , and hell for the wicked ; and being ashamed to say that the holy Patriarch 〈◊〉 was damned , or that he despared of his saluation , when he sayd , I will go down to my son into hell , mourning , Gen. 37. 〈◊〉 35. They translate , I will go down into the grave vnto my 〈◊〉 ▪ mourning ; and rather then confess a third place ( and by consequence Purgatory ) after this life , they father non-sence vpon Iacob , and the Holy Ghost , as though Iacob thought that his son Ios●ph had bin buried in a grave , whereas Iacob th●ught and sayd immediatly before ( vers . 33. ) an evill beast hath devoured him . And therfore he must necessarily have me●●● that he would dye , and go where he thought the soule of his son Joseph to be ; which was neither in heaven ( for then he would rather have ascended thither Ioyfull , then descended to any place mourning ) neither did he mean the hell of the damned , for that had bin desperation ; but to a low place where the lust soules then remained , which was called Ly●n●●● Patrum , or Abraham's Bosom ; the way of the holies as Saint Paul speaketh , being not yet made open , because our Saviour Christ was to dedicat and begin the entrance in his own person , and by his passion to open heaven . Tertullian ( lib. ●● advers . Marc●●● . ) saith , I know the bosom of Abraham was 〈◊〉 heavenly place , but only the higher Hell , or the higher part of hell ▪ from which speech of the F●ther● 〈…〉 afterward that other ●ame Lymbas Patr●●● that is , the very 〈◊〉 , or vppermost and outmost part of hell , where the Fathers of the Old Testament rested . The words of St. Peter . 2. 〈◊〉 . 1. v. ●5 . And I will do my dilige●●●● to have you often after my decease also , that you may keep a memory of these things ▪ seemed to Protestants so plain in favour of his praying for the Christians after his decease , that King Iames his Translators change them into these , Moreover I will endeavor that you may be able after my decease , to have these things alwayes to remembrance . We ask Protestants why do they wrest this place of the Psalme , and corrupt Scripture against the honour which ought to be given to Saints ? Psalme 138. Thy friends O God are b●●ome exceeding honorable , their prin●edo● is exceedingly strengthned which is Saint Hierom's translation from the Hebrew , confirmed by the great Rabbin R. Salomon , and the Greek Text● and never excepted against by any learned Father of the Church vntill the Protestant Translators were pleased to alter it thus ; How pretious are thy thoughts 〈◊〉 O God , how great is the summe of them ; as if multiplicity of thoughts were an admirable excellency in God , wheras his 〈◊〉 admit●s not many ▪ but rather one comprehensive knowledge without composition and therfore the Holy Ghost would not have sayd of them ( in the next verse ) that they are more in number then the Sands which expression may be properly applyed to the Saints , but not to Gods thoughts . To this demand Protestants answer first , that the Saints do not heare us , and yet they grant that Devills and evill Spirits heare witches , Conjurers , or Magitians when they are called vpon ; and shall we think , that the evill Spirits are enabled by nature , and permitted by God to . heare , what they are invited to work mischief● , and that the Blessed Spirits are deaf , and have their power of doing good ●●strained , when we devoutly pray vnto them ? They tell us we injure Christ by praying to Saints . If it be no injury to Christ's merits and mediation , to pray vnto holy men vpon 〈◊〉 , or to recommend our selves vnto their prayers , why should it be an injury to pray to the Saints who are in heaven ? Jf the Apostles and Martyrs ( saith St. Hierom against Vigil●ntius dwelling in corruptible flesh , could pray for others , 〈◊〉 they ought to be carefull for themselves , how much more af●●● their Crowns , Victories , and Triumphs ? They tell us that according to Esay ( 63. ) Abraham knoweth vs not , and Jsrael is ignorant of vs ; we answer with St. Hierom , that those holy Fathers knew not the Iewes with the knowledge of approbation or liking , because they had abandoned the law of God ; so our Saviour saith the foolish Virgins were not known , nes●io vos . Doctor Reynolds giveth a reason why we pray to the living and not to the departed . Because saith he , the living may vnderstand our griefs either by word or message , the Saints can have no notice of them . Therfore they cannot make particular intercession for us , or we use any supplication to them . But these two wayes of knowledge are not proper only to the living in this world ; The Saints of heaven also vnderstand our afflictions by word and sight , when being ( as St. Ambrose and St. Hierom teacheth they may be ) by incredible swiftness and celerity of motion every where present and conver●●●● amongst us : being as St. Ambrose addeth , beholders of our life and actions , they see our distress , and heare the complaints we make . They know our estate by message also and report of others ; by the report ( saith Saint Austin ) of the soules that depart from hence , and by report of the Angels God's trusty messengers , and our faithfull Guardians , who have dayly intercourse between them and vs. Besides , the Saints resident in heaven have certain knowledge of our actions and thoughts , as far forth as it may be needfull for us , and expedient to them , according to that of St. Gregory , what can they be there ignorant of , where they know him that knoweth all things . Every Saint ( nature not being abolished , but perfected by grace ) has a natural desire to know the state of their friends , to vnderstand the 〈◊〉 they make vnto them , and therfore ( to fullfill the 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 ) they must have notice of them . 〈…〉 in heaven rejoyce at the conversion of a sinner , and by 〈◊〉 are not ignorant therof . How can we Jmagin 〈…〉 Blessed parents , and other relatio●● of sinners can be ignorant of their repentance . Therfore St. Gregory Nazianzen , and St. Austin say , that God openeth and revealeth to the Saints 〈◊〉 to his intire friends whatsoever is behoofull for them ●o know . And according to this not only the holy Doctors of the Christian Catholick Church but the Iewes did invoke Saints departed . Jacob sayd , the Angell which hath delivered me from all evills , bless these children . ( Gen. 48. ) Job was councelled to pray to the Saints , Call if there be any who will answer thee , and turn to some of the Saints . ( Iob. 5. ) Moyses intreated the patronage of the Patriarchs in these words , Remember Abraham , Isaac , and Israel thy servants . The like did Daniel ( Dan. 3. ) Take not away thy mercy from us , for Abraham , thy beloved , and Isaac thy Servant , and Is●●el thy holy one ; and King Salomon , Remember O Lord David , and all his mildness ; which God himself approved 4. Reg. 19. I will guard this citty for my own sake , and for David my Servant's sake . St. Gregory Nazianzen implored the helpe of St. Basil ; St. Ierom of St. Paul● ; St. Gregory Nyssen of St. Theodore ; St. Austin of St. Cyprian ; St. Athanasius prayed to our Blessed Lady thus , Jncline thy eare to our prayers and forget not thy people ; O Lady , Mistress , Queen● , and Mother of God , pray for vs. And St. Austin , O Blessed Mary receive our prayers , obtain our suits , for thou art the special hope of sinners . St. Ephrem invocateth her by the name of hope , refuge , advocate , safety , and Mediatrix of the world . And must we preferr Doctor Abbots , and the English Clergyes corruptions before all these evidences of Scriptures and Fathers ? To conclude this matter , J admire how Protestants can Imagin that Cranmer , Abbots , and their Camerades , who conspired to falsifie Scripture , or the Ministers that continue to preach their falsifications , for true scripture , did or do scruple to maintain their pretended E●●●●opal caracter 〈◊〉 the forged Registers which Archbishop 〈◊〉 produced to the Priests in prison , of Parker and the 〈◊〉 Protestants Bishops ordination at Lambeth . I hope men 〈◊〉 contrive , continue , and countenance so horrid a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the corrupting of publick Scripture , may be presumed 〈…〉 , and foist into privat Registers a fictitious consecration , therby to enjoy their revenues ; but as it was never heard of before Archbishop Abbot's time , so was it no sooner pro●●ced then suspected and contradicted by ancient and consci●●tious persons , who lived in London when this Consecration at ●ambeth is pretended to have bin celebrated , and yet they never heard a syllable of so rare a novelty , notwithstanding their continual inquiry into a matter , wherin both Catholicks and Protestants were so much concerned . Let this suffice for a tast of those innumerable corruptions and falsifications which yet are continued in the English Bible , though reviewed and corrected by King Iames his command , and passeth now current in these Kingdomes among Protestants , for the word of God , wheras it is the word and work of men ; not only by reason of their false Translations but much more of their vngodly and fond interpretations , contrary to the true sense of Scripture delivered by the holy Ghost in the primitive Church , and ever since continued by tradition among Catholicks , and visible in the writings of the Fathers and General Councells . The Prelatick Clergyes design in this new Translation was , to keep ( as J sayd before ) their authority , and the Church Livings which they had vsurped , by gaining Credit for their new Episcopacy and ceremonies against puritans , or presbiterians ; and for their Protestant doctrin against the Catholicks ; but fearing that their corruptions would be observed by both partyes , in their epistl● dedicatory to King James , they desire his Majesties protection , for that on the one side we shall be traduced ( say they ) by Popish persons at home or abroad , who therfore will 〈…〉 Jnstruments to 〈◊〉 God's holy 〈…〉 the people , when they desire still to keepe 〈…〉 ; on the other side we shall be 〈…〉 who run their 〈◊〉 wayes &c. But truly I 〈◊〉 no reason why they should Iud●● so rashly of Roman Catholicks , 〈…〉 to persuade the King , and the whole world , that we are so impious and envious , as to conceale from the people the light of the Ghospell , seeing we stick to the old letter and sense of Scripture ; without altering the Text , or rejecting any parts therof , or devising new Interpretations ▪ and we are dayly imployed not only in preaching and explaining God's word in Europe , but forsake our own Countreyes and conveniences , and travell with great difficulties and dangers both by Sea and Land , to Asia , Afrik , America , and the Antipodes , with no other possible design but to publish the doctrin of Christ , and enlighten the Nations of Gentill● who are in 〈…〉 : ignorance : And as for their self-conceited presbit●●ian 〈…〉 Brethren , who run ▪ their own wayes in translating and interpreting Scripture , we do not excuse them , but only say , that we see no reason why prelaticks should 〈…〉 for a fault wherof themselves are no less guilty . Do not prelaticks run their own wayes , as well as those other Sectaries , in translating the Bible ? Do they stick to either the Greek , Latin , or Hebrew Text ? Do they not leape from one language and Copy to an other ; accept and reject what they please ? Do they not fancy a sense of their own , every iot as contrary to that of the Catholick and ancient Church , as that of their Brethren , the Presbiterians , and others , is acknowledged to be ? And yet they are nether more learned , nor more skilfull in tongues , nor more godly then those they so much contemn , and blame . But to the end every Christian may more cleerly discern 〈◊〉 Cheat , and divert himself with some variety in the method of this tedious , but convincing argument , I will give 〈◊〉 a brief relation of a remarkable passage , much to the 〈◊〉 purpose , which happned in the beginning of King James 〈◊〉 Reign ; by which he may in one man's case , see the 〈◊〉 and sincerity of all the Protestant prelatick Church and 〈◊〉 in King Iames his time ; and Iudge what satisfaction 〈◊〉 may have in this world , or whether they may expect 〈◊〉 in the next , by relying vpon the authority and 〈◊〉 of the Prelatick Protestant Church of England . SVBSECT . II. Of Deane VValsingham's search into matters of Religion before his change to the Catholick : how he repaired for a Resolution of his doubes to King Iames , as to the head of the Church ; who remitted him to the Lord of Canterbury : and he to other men ; and how after finding no satisfaction , he betook himself to the reading of Catholick and Protestant Authors for discerning on what side was the true or false Dealing . I Will reduce into as narrow a compass as I can , Deane Walsingham's relation which he dedicated to K. Iames ; concluding his epistle with these words most humbly on my Knees I beseech your Royal Majesty , to pardon me this 〈◊〉 resolution , wherunto I protest , vpon my soule and Conscience , that no earthly motive drew me , but only my love and obedience ▪ 〈◊〉 to him that is King of all Kings &c. That 〈…〉 ( pag. 〈…〉 , as you have seen ▪ to change my Iudgment , and yeild to the manifest evidence of truth , which I found to be on the Catholick side , and nothing 〈…〉 shift● , and deceits on the contrary . This 〈◊〉 speake here , Good 〈◊〉 , as in the sight of Almighty God , and as in truth of conscience I have found ▪ and no way out of passion , or evill affection , or wordly respects : in which every man will easily see how much I prejudice my self by this new course taken : But that both reason and Religion , prudence , and all true piety doth ●●●quire , that the everlasting salvation of our soules should be preferred before all other human respects whatsoever : which is the true and sincere cause of this my resolution . And this I desire thee ( Good Christian Reader● ) to believe , and assure thy self to be most true , as a● the last day , when we shall all appeare before the Tribunal of 〈◊〉 Saviour , and all hearts be made known , will evidently appeare . In his preface to the Reader he gives an account of his Protestant education and Religion , wherin 〈◊〉 was so zealous , that he took all occasions to deale with others either for their confirmation , or gaining to 〈◊〉 ▪ and to this effect was wont to send Books of that profession to any that would read them . By which occasion it fell out , that one of his ac●quaintance that seemed backward in the acceptance of a Book , was content to receive it from him vpon condition ( saith he ) that I should promise him to read an other Book he would lend me , wherof I accepted . This book was inittuled a Defence of the Censure given vpon two bookes of William Chark , and Meredith Hanmer , Ministers ; which book I litle esteemed at that time , thinking it should serve me for some disport , especialy for gathering out some absurdities against Papists , wher●ith I did Imagin all their books to be abundantly stuffed . But finding whersoever I lighted , certain passages which I could 〈◊〉 well digest , and many proofs alledged wherunto I could 〈◊〉 ●●swer ▪ I cast ●t of●en aside ; and then took it in hand again 〈◊〉 ●oon after I felt my self so strangely troubled and tur●●●led in Iudgment and conscience vpon the reading therof , 〈◊〉 my soule had taken pills indeed , and could not beare 〈…〉 . I conferred divers of my difficulties with 〈◊〉 ●●nisters , without specifying that I had them out of such 〈◊〉 , but they could give me very litle satisfaction , or 〈◊〉 at all . Wherupon I made divers Iourneys to London , 〈…〉 to see Books of sundry sorts , as also to conferre with 〈◊〉 of my friends . And having wearied my self in this sort 〈◊〉 the space of divers mo●thes , at last I betooke my self to a ●ore strange resolution , but yet such as then seemed to 〈◊〉 most necessary for appeasing of my mind ; and this was , 〈◊〉 so much as I had taken two or three several times the oath 〈◊〉 supremacy , first to the Queene , and afterward to his Majesty that now reigneth , I 〈◊〉 persuade my self that my best comfort of conscience would come from the superiour powers ; but especialy from his learned Majesty , who governed the Crown , as from God's Lieutenant and substitute in all causes and affaires whatsoever . Wherfore after much deliberation , not daring to conferr ●ith any Papist , or almost to entertain any Good thought 〈◊〉 them , or of their Religion , I determined with my self to ●ake a short memorial vnto his sayd Majesty , and to deliver him the summ of my afflictions and doubts , together with the ●●ok it self , which had bin the cause therof ; and to entreat him by his supreme authority to give order for my sound satisfaction therin ; and so binding vp the old book in the comeliest manner I could , I got me to London , and thence to Greenwich and there after many difficulties of audience , I exhibited the same together with my Memorial , both tyed and conjoyned in one , as his Majesty was going to the Chappel vpon Good friday in the morning in the yeare 1604. Deane 〈…〉 difficulties 〈…〉 Book . MY 〈…〉 the Author's complaint that Catholiks ●●ving 〈…〉 offers of some j●st tryall of their and 〈…〉 Religion in England , either by publick disputation ▪ free writing ▪ or printing , they could never yet be admitted vnto any ; which made me much to mervaile , vpon what cause or ground this should be so long denyed ; for that supposing our Protestant Religion to be true , as I was persuaded , I could not see why this p●●blick tryall might not be , and ought not to be granted . Moreover I saw , and considered , that wheras his Majesty soon after his coming into England , was resolved gratiously to heare the differences that were between his own subjects , and to that effect yeelded for three or four days most honorable audience in his own person , to heare and Iudge the contentions between the Protestants and puritans ; yet notwithstanding in this conference the Papists had no place at all ; which was marked by many , and divers also spoke therof . Wherfore vpon these considerations I was much troubled , doubting lest this straitness vsed in not admitting Papists to any kind of this equal offered tryall , might have some mystery in it ; and that all things went not so cleere indeed on our side , as I had hitherto believed . My second ▪ difficulty was about the tryall of spirits , whether they be of God , or no ? the Author of the Defence joyning roundly with M. r Chark ▪ offered to stand to all lawfull tryall whatsoever ; and therupon taketh in hand to prove that Protestants have no sure ground or way to try an heretical , or Catholick spirit ; and that Catholicks have many , wherof he setteth down nine , shewing first that the only way offered by Protestants , of only Scripture , is no way at all ; and that , for divers reasons ; one among the rest , that all heretick● ▪ both old and new , have professed this way &c. which , 〈◊〉 it were admitted to be the best , and that Scripture 〈◊〉 neither corrupted in the letter , nor perverted in the 〈◊〉 by Protestants , yet could not that way of tryall , advance 〈◊〉 advantage their cause ; because the Catholicks have express 〈◊〉 of Scripture for themselves , and Protestants no express 〈…〉 for their Tenets . As for example , Catholicks have 〈◊〉 This is my Body , for Transubstantiation ( Mat. 26. ) 〈◊〉 man is justifyed by workes and not by faith only ( Jacob. 2. ) for ●●●tification by Good workes . Whose sins you forgive are forgi●●● &c. ( Joan. 20. ) for absolution . The doers of the Law 〈◊〉 be justified . ( Rom. 2. ) for the possibility of observing the Commandements . vow ye and render your vowes ( Psalm . 75. ) for votaries . Keep the traditions which you have learned either by word or epistle ( ● . Thess. 2. ) for vnwritten Traditions &c. Protestants have not one express text in all Scripture for their Tenets . My third difficulty was about the first beginners of our Protestant doctrin , to wit Luther with his schollers Zuinglius , C●●oldstadius , Oecolampadius , Calvin , Beza , &c. for that albeit Religion is not to be measured by the life of the Teacher , yet I considered , that whensoever God did send any men ext●●ordinarily to reform his Church , they were alwayes com●only of more eminent virtue in their lives , then others , as 〈◊〉 seen by all the Patriarchs and Prophets , by St. John Bapti●● , and others in succeeding ages . But now for these men before named , Luther and the rest , this writer of the Defence doth shew by very great testimonies , that they were men far inferiour vnto the common sort of honest men ; that Luther had his reformation against the Mass , Intercession of Saints &c. from the Devill , from whom also Zuinglius received his opinion against the real presence , and Transubstantiation ; that Calvin followed therin Zwinglius , and we in England embrace the same . That Hierom Bolse● Doctor of Physi● many yeare● in Geneua , and other places round ●bout , in 〈◊〉 time , when himself was a 〈…〉 things both of 〈…〉 his falshood ▪ might be so easily 〈…〉 As that Iohn Calvin was 〈…〉 with a burning ●●●ron for 〈…〉 in 〈◊〉 who preserved 〈…〉 ; and that 〈◊〉 was testifyed by publick record of the said Citty of Noy●●● ▪ and that this was registred by Monsieur Bertilier Secretary of the Councell of Geneva vnder a publick and sworn 〈◊〉 hand ; he relates many things of Calvin's excessive ambition ▪ intollerable hypocrisy , delicat niceness , and lascivious carna●●● . As for Beza who lived when Bolsek's book was written , he reporteth many enormous things , as that he kept both a boy and a Queane , Andebertus , and Candida : that he ran away with a Taylor 's wife that dwelt in Calen●●r street in Paris , ●he robbing her husband to accompany him and that he continued the like life after , keeping an harlot called 〈◊〉 , together with his own wife , and killing his own Child begotten vpon her , to cover the sin , by letting her blood above measure , and many other soul things , which I avoyd to name for loathsomness . My fourth difficulty was tha● the Defence of the Cens●●● sheweth how our Church of England doth receive and 〈◊〉 for Brethren such as could never agree , nor cannot at the day , in sundry substantial points of doctrin , as the book proves by their confessions , protestations , and writings one against the other ▪ as also by sundry Synods , and Protestant Councells , wherin the one hath condemned the other . And namely he citeth this saying of Luther among many other . I do protest before God and the world , that I do not agree with them " ( the Sacramentarians , which is our Religion of England . ) 〈…〉 will , while the world standeth ; but will have my hand● 〈…〉 the blood of those sheep which these hereticks do drive 〈…〉 , and kill . 〈…〉 it was possible that Luther , 〈…〉 with God's holy spirit 〈…〉 so manifestly condemn us 〈…〉 , for 〈◊〉 hereticks , that hold him for 〈…〉 , and 〈…〉 very same doctrin , as doctrin 〈…〉 for pernitious heresy ▪ This 〈…〉 I might have some 〈…〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 fifth difficulty was M. r Fulk , and our Protestant 〈◊〉 contempt of the holy Fathers , and of Traditions : 〈…〉 I fell vpon this account , whether it were more 〈…〉 me to adventure my soul with Fulk , and our 〈…〉 , or with the antient Fathers , and whether it 〈…〉 probable that they should know what passed in 〈…〉 Church better then St. Cyprian , St. Austin &c. 〈…〉 troubled me as I thought every day a year 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 was about M. r Chark : against whom 〈…〉 was written , who seemed to me 〈…〉 very 〈…〉 impugning the same , for that 〈…〉 not 〈◊〉 to any of the difficulties , as to 〈◊〉 seemed , and much less in his reply to the defence 〈◊〉 afterward I 〈◊〉 to see . The substance of Dean Walsingham's memorial to the King. 〈◊〉 a certain memorial ( as I may call it ) wherin I 〈◊〉 comprehended as compendiously as then I could , some chief 〈◊〉 principal causes of my doubts , and difficulties before 〈◊〉 , and contained in that book , desiring his Highness , 〈…〉 Mr. Doctor Covell told me it was your 〈…〉 should go home vntill your Grace sent for 〈…〉 sayd , J gave no such order , Doctor Cavell is 〈…〉 sayd , J vnderstood your Grace so . 〈…〉 Lord tu●ning 〈◊〉 to the Knight , sayd with an angry 〈…〉 as soon as J came to the Court to day the first word 〈…〉 spake vnto me , he asked me what I had don with him , 〈…〉 book ▪ you are a fellow indeed , we have dealt 〈…〉 thou art a bold Companion to deliver such a book 〈…〉 . Then J began to speak , and to yeeld my reasons 〈…〉 but my Lord proceeded in his wrathfull speeches , and 〈…〉 and angry words , he added , I will even send 〈…〉 thou art worthy to be set on the pillory , and to 〈…〉 for a libelling Knave as thou art . I answe●●● 〈…〉 your Grace , J hope I have not deserved 〈…〉 . I have set my hand to that which I 〈…〉 , I desire , my Lord , but to be taught the truth . 〈…〉 sayd thou be taught ? thou art a foolish bold knave , 〈…〉 as thou art , before I have don with 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 Lord had chafed and spoken largely his 〈…〉 he had put me in a bodily feare , the Knight 〈◊〉 Corner began to speak and say , my Lord he will be 〈…〉 ; Mr. Walsingham I dare say , is sorry for his 〈◊〉 you shall see he will conform himself as he should . 〈…〉 yet stil continued in his rough and angry 〈…〉 , no man forsooth , will serve you but the King to 〈…〉 allpunc ; I answered , may it please your Grace to 〈…〉 reasons why I came chiefly to the King : then sayd 〈◊〉 Lord ; why what hast thou to do with the King ? what 〈…〉 if thou wer● hanged like a foolish Knave as thou art ? 〈…〉 other such like vehement and threatning speeches ; 〈…〉 the end he sayd , come near ( for that all this 〈…〉 stood a loof . ) And then he called for his Secretary or Notary saying , 〈…〉 indignation to me , Come , come you hither , I will examin 〈◊〉 Lord , ● will write to the Commissary that he shall not 〈◊〉 or hinder you in any thing , and so calling for pen 〈…〉 his letter , the summ wherof was this . 〈…〉 the Bearer hereof seemeth to be somewhat 〈…〉 towards popery ▪ we will that you appoint some 〈…〉 and learned Divine who may conferr with him , and 〈…〉 his doubts : but let all things be so don as 〈…〉 not be discouraged , nor his infirmity divulged ▪ 〈…〉 sayd my Lord , you see what I have written , 〈…〉 〈…〉 any way prejudice you &c. I doubt not but 〈…〉 come again , you will be wel resolved , and 〈…〉 : I hope so my Lord , sayd I ; you go to 〈…〉 my Lord ? yes and it please your Lordship 〈…〉 that is vvell , sayd my Lord. And thus having 〈…〉 my Lords letter , he bid me farewell : and then 〈…〉 leave of Doctor Covell , he spake very kindly to me , 〈…〉 ▪ I hope when you come again Mr. Walsingham , you 〈…〉 of another mind , and all shall be well . And so from 〈…〉 I passed to London , and from thence the next day 〈◊〉 Countrey , somewhat to satisfie my friends , and to 〈…〉 what the rumors raised about me . 〈◊〉 Walsinghams address to Mr. Rolfe , 〈…〉 of St. Albans : And of his 〈◊〉 with Doctor Downham , and an other 〈◊〉 the Protestant Clergy ; and his perusal of Mr. 〈◊〉 Books recommanded to him by my Lord of 〈…〉 ; and of the answer of the Defence 〈◊〉 the Censure . MR. Walsingham thus dispatcht without any Satisfaction of his doubts , he began to distrust and suspect the Protestant Clergy and Religion : but howe●●● 〈…〉 that I had read the 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 had driven me into many doubts , 〈…〉 I declared how that Book 〈…〉 whom 〈…〉 to be a man of God ) to have 〈…〉 the Church of Rome , by the ins●igation of the 〈…〉 had much Conference &c. which of true , surely 〈…〉 to be of some better faith and Religion 〈…〉 have the original and begining from the D●vil . 〈…〉 common practise of the Papists to 〈…〉 of God , and I think I ha●● the answer to that book . 〈…〉 ( sayd Mr. VV●lsingham ) have a sight of that 〈◊〉 And now being dinner time Mr. Doctor sayd he 〈…〉 with Mr. Arch-Deacon , and so he left me , not 〈…〉 it seemed , to have any further conference with 〈…〉 made me conceive an hard opinion of Mr. Doctors 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 , who perceiving in what state I was , 〈◊〉 ●dolatry , Antichrist &c. would seeme so willing as he 〈◊〉 withdraw himself : But meeting Mr. Rolfe , he wished 〈◊〉 any wise so expect Doctor Downham , which J 〈…〉 〈◊〉 with him to his house in Company of one or two 〈◊〉 more . 〈◊〉 Mr. VValsingham came to Dr. Downham house at 〈…〉 shewed him some of Luthers works , wherin he 〈…〉 worst things ther he had noted out of the defence 〈◊〉 Censure , and the Doctor alwayes dive●ted him from the 〈◊〉 of the truth and from comparing his notes with the 〈◊〉 The next day morning an other Minister came to 〈…〉 , whom he made acquainted with Mr. 〈…〉 , who thervpon desired 〈◊〉 have some conference 〈…〉 perplexed soul ; and having related to that ancient 〈…〉 doubts , the remedy he applied was to inveigh 〈◊〉 the Papists obstinacy , vntrue dealing , Jndulgences &c. 〈…〉 word to answer Mr. VValsinghams difficulties : who 〈…〉 the answer to the defence of the Censure , took his 〈◊〉 of Doctor Downham . men by the Jnstigation of some who were far blinded with 〈◊〉 against them . Mr. Bell's second Book called a Survey of Popery , Mr. 〈◊〉 pervsed , because he had promised , and took no 〈◊〉 some corruptions he had found therin of St. Chrysostom , 〈…〉 of Nice , St. Austin , St. Gregory &c. with a 〈◊〉 to shew them to my Lord of Canterbury , who did 〈◊〉 esteem the Author , and extoll the Book . He read 〈◊〉 third book of Mr. Bell's , called the downfall of popery , 〈◊〉 he found also many falsifications to maintain 〈◊〉 , and against popes : wherof one was this . Antoninus 〈◊〉 bishop of Florence affirmeth ( saith Mr. Bell ( pag. 40. ) 〈◊〉 Pope Martin the fifth dispensed with one , who had contracted 〈◊〉 ●●●summated matrimony with his own natural and full sister 〈…〉 Father and Mother , citing these words of Antoninus 〈…〉 , cum quadam ejus Germana , which he englished as 〈◊〉 have heard , his own natural and full sister &c. cutting of 〈◊〉 the sentence that ensued , and confuted his falsification , 〈◊〉 cognoverat fornicariè , whom he had known in fornication : 〈◊〉 the sentence in Antoninus is , that Pope Martyn the 3. 〈◊〉 a great suit and long deliberation , did dispence with one 〈…〉 married with the sister of her , whom he had known in fornication , that is to say , with his concubines sister : which dispensation ( saith Antoninus ) was hardly granted : and one thei● reason of the grant was ( saith he ) for that the par●●●● could not be separated without great scandal , nor were fit to enter into Religion . Now as to Mr. Chark's answer or reply to the defence of the Censure , which Doctor Downham had lent vnto me , I found therin no satisfaction , for I saw in effect ( saith Mr. Walsingham ) nothing but a colerick Jnvective against the Author of the defence , telling him first and facing him down that the cause why there was no publick disputation , was in him and his fellowes , as being afraid to come to that tryal . Which kind of answer contented me not , for that I expected he would have sayd , that disputation should be procured , and that he and all the rest of our Clergy would ioyn in that suit to her Majesty that then was . Secondly , to all the ways set down by the defence for trying of a Catholick and heretical spirit , he sayd only , that he and his , would be tryed by Scriptures ; wheras the Controversies would be about the sense and Jnterpretation of Scripture . Thirdly , to that of Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin , Beza , their lives and doctrines , which principaly I desired to see discussed , he seemed to me to answer scarce any thing to the purpose , but ran into a great exclamation of popish slanderers , and against the absurdities of Indulgences &c. which were not now in question : he ought to have examined the place out of Luther's own writings about himself and others , both for life and doctrin : but this was not don , only in general he would seem to excuse matters , or rather to divert the reader from attention vnto them with this florish of words . As for Berengari●s ( saith Chark ) Huss , Wicleff , Luther , &c. we measure them according to those times wherin the Lord stirred them vp , and according to that measure of grace and light he bestowed vpon them , and whatsoever were their Jmperfections , therin we do not justifie them , but give God the praise of his work , and leave them to their place as men ; yet we may and will thus far defend them against that doggish tooth of your●● that in the principal points of faith , wherupon dependeth salvation , they were found with Athanasius , and all other holy men of God. These words J say , may be as well applyed ( as an Apology ) to Turks , Iewes , and all hereticks , as to Luther , Calvin , Beza , Cranmer ; for Turks , Iewes and all hereticks agree with Catholicks and Athanasius in some points of faith ; though in their imperfections ( as blasphemies , Iudaisme , Turcisme , heresy &c. ) They do not agree with Athanasius , and therin we do not justifie them . Were not this a good excuse thought J with my self ? And is it not a goodly Church that admits of such companions , and fraternity ? saith VValsingham . What he meant ●●en he sayd in the principal points of faith wherupon dependeth salvation , I could not tell , seeing he giveth no certain rule to know them . And besides I considered that Luther and 〈◊〉 Lutherans do affirm in their Books , even to this day , that we ●scan●ants of England are damned hereticks , for denying the real pre 〈…〉 . And on the contrary side we say that they are good protestants , 〈◊〉 holy men , and our Brethren , though they hold the real presence , which we deny , and condemn for Idolatry . To all the rest of my difficulties J found in effect no substantial answer at all . Mr. VValsinghams last appearance before my Lord of Canterbury and his Doctors . THe prefixed time of my appearance drawing neere , I repaired to London , and vpon the last day of Easter term I went to Lambeth to present my self to my Lord , who was not yet come from Westminster , though in 〈◊〉 absence there sate , as I vnderstood , divers Doctors , and Pr●lats about matters of Religion in his house at Lambeth . At length my Lord came home , and a great train with him , coming out of his garden he cast his eye vpon me , and presently said vnto me with a friendly countenanee , and somewhat a low voice , now Mr. VValsingham how do you , are you satisfied ? To whom I answered , no truly my Lord , I am not yet satisfied , wherunto he replyed nothing , but went and sate down at his table in the parlor , together with his Doctors and Prelats about him , whither after a litle time , I was called , and then my Lord began to explain my case vnto them , how I desired to be satisfied in matters of fact conteined in the defence , what paines his Lordship had taken with me , and others at his appointment , and finaly that he had delivered vnto me two books of Mr. Bell's , written against the Papists , to satisfie me withall ; and then he called me closs vnto him at the tables end , and asked me very seriously whether J had read them , and what I thought of them ? To this I answered that I had read them over with diligence , and that my Iudgment was that the Author was a golden Bell , but his sound like as of a brazen Candlestick , which I sayd in respect of the many golden advices , inferences , Corollaries , and the golden sentences , which he mentioned so often in his books ; but that his sound was no better then of brass , according to the Apostle's similitude , for that he seemed not only to have no charity in his writings , but neither truth nor sincerity in his Allegations . The Arch-bishop hearing me call him a golden Bell in the first part of my answer , seemed much contented , saying , that is well , but hearing the second , demanded ? why so ? And Doctor Barlow Dean of Chester ( afterwards Bishop of Lincoln ) looking back vpon me with more displeasure , as it seemed , then the rest , sayd , why , what say you to Mr. Bell ? and all the other Doctors in like manner cast their eyes vpon me . But I gave the reason 〈◊〉 mentioned . And then my Lord answering , and willing me to shew wherin I had made that observation , J layd forth vpon the table before them the two books that I had perused , turning to the places of St. Chrysostom , St. Augustin , and other Fathers , which I pretended to have bin vntruly alledged by him , presupposing that my Lord would presently h●●e commanded the said Fathers works to have bin brought forth out of his study , and the places quoted to be examined in all their presence : but no such matter ensued : for my Lord having slightly looked over the places in Bell , as he citeth them , he layed them down again , and the Doctors took them vp to peruse , in which mean space his Lorship began to talk somewhat privatly and mildly with me concerning things , objected by the defence of the Censure against Luther &c. My Lord began to talk vnto Doctor Barlow , who this while with the rest was looking on Bell's Books , and began to speak somwhat concerning them , seeming to maintain somewhat a good opinion of Bell's fidelity , which yet appeared not to be great with my Lord himself , as by some conjectures I gathered . But none of them , as I said , so much as once offered to call for the Fathers works themselves , to examin the places , which was my desire . But after some few words to and fro among themselves , my Lord commanded me to stand a side whilst they talked . Wherupon I retired my self by litle and litle down to the lower end of the parlour , that they might confer more freely ; they talked together of this and other matters : and after some litle time &c. my Lord began to speak with a high and angry voyce , concerning me , and my affaires ; and looking toward me complained of my importunity and obstinacy , and sayd to the Doctors , that he would send me to prison , and therupon calling for his pursuivant , or apparitor , ( which presently appeared ) said , let a mittimus be made to send him to the Chink &c. But then came vnto me from the other side of the parlour the Knight of the Corner mentioned before , who out of ●●ew of great compassion and extraordinary friendship , began with divers temporal reasons to persuade me not to meddle further in these matters , but accommodat my self to my Lord's will , and I should find his Grace a good Lord vnto me , and ready to perform as occasion should be offered &c. After a litle time they rose from the table , and standing on foot , my Lord shewed himself much displeased , talked again of me and of my busines , threatning to send me to prison ; but after that again he retired himself into a window together with Doctor Barlow , who having conferred some litle space together , my Lord called me vnto him , and insinuating vnto me that the sayd Doctor had intreated for some favor towards me , sayd , well , Mr. VValsingham , J am content you shall conferr these places with Doctor Barlow , who will take some paines with you to resolve you ; and then turning vnto Mr. Doctor , he sayd vnto him , you can shew him ( Mr. Deane ) Chrysostom both in greek and Latin , ( and so might his Grace also , but durst not ) willing me to repaire vnto him for conference , and dismissed me , with saying only that J should return vnto him in the end of the next term ; and indeed his dismission was such , and with such countenance and speech , as it seemed to me he could not well determin what to do with me , being weary of me , and of my suite , and that he would have bin content to be handsomly rid of me . Upon the next day J repaired to VVestminster to Mr. Doctor Barlow , who after even song went vp with me to his study , and there at my request opened first one of St. Austin's Tomes , wherin the Book de bono viduitatis is contained , and there sought for the place before named , cyted by Mr. Bell , and falling vpon the words alledged by him , read them , and would have seemed to defend them , as there they lye . But when J pressed him to have him go forward , and to read the words ensuing , which do explicat St. Austin's meaning , and wholy overthrow Mr. Bell's purpose , he was vnwilling at that time to pass any further , especialy his man coming to tell him that it was now supper time : and so with courteous words , he dismissed me , saying nothwithstanding that if at any other time I should come vnto him , he would be glad to spend an houre , and take 〈◊〉 some further paines with me . But J thought with my self , to what end should J come vnto him , and trouble both him and my self , as J had don many others in the same cause before : for that I seemed to perceive now how litle they were able or willing to give me that satisfaction in these points , which I demanded about my doubts , and scruples ; and with this I departed from him , not meaning to return again for the present , but to take some other course as afterwards I did : which was , to examin books on both sides for finding out truth or falsity , begining first with the writings of the protestants , and afterward of Catholicks . This is the substance of the historical part of Mr. VValsingham's search into Religion . In the progress of his book he sets down those frauds , and willfull corruptions which he found in perusing the works of Luther , Calvin , Jewell , Fox , ●●●low , VVillet , Chark , Fulk , Hastings and other protestant ●●iters : and acknowledgeth the truth and sincerity which he 〈◊〉 with , in the Catholicks ; wherupon he resolved to re●ounce protestancy , and the conveniencies that therby he might ●●pect , preferring the good of his soul , which he believed could not be saved out of the Roman Catholick Church , before all temporal respects . To satisfy his friends , and the world , in this resolution , he published the foresaid Treatise , and became a Catholick Priest , and by his good example and paines taken in this Kingdom , converted many of his seduced Countreymen . He lived to be of very great age , dying but few years since , bidding always those with whom he conversed , not to credit , or trust any of the protestant Clergy in matters of Religion , how ever so sincere they may seem to be in other affaires . SVBSECT . III. Reflexions vpon Mr. VValsingham's relation . THe first Reflexion is . How education , and a persuasion of the truth grounded therupon , can not be safely or prudently relyed vpon in matters of that one only faith , without which it is impossible to please God , and be saved ; especialy when we acknowledge the fallibility of our Church , and have reasons to suspect our Clergys sincerity . The protestant Church of England doth acknowledge it's own fallibility , and that Clergys interest and intrigues in vpholding a Religion wherby alone they may live above the meanness of their parentage , and patrimony , together with our Catholick continual exceptions and proofs against it's novelty , and libertinism , and the publick offers of learned disinteressed , and conscientious persons to demonstrat how much lay-Protestants are abused by their Clergy , and mistaken in their fancied Scripture and reformed Doctrin ( in case the state wil give way to a faire tryal ) doth leave no room for the illiterat layties ordinary excuse , to wit , that they are not obliged to study Controversies , or read the Fathers ; so much is not exacted of them , they are bound notwithstanding to examin ( every one according to his capacity ) which of the two Clergys , Protestant or Catholick , do corrupt and falsify Scripture , the Fathers and Councells ; or if that diligence be not compatible with the meanes , and condition of many of them , no more is required of such , then to observe which of both partyes and Clergyes hinders , or is most backward in coming to a publick tryal therof , this ( being but matter of fact , discernable by the eye , without Metaphysical speculation , or historical erudition ) can not in conscience be rejected or neglected by any Christian , learned or vnlearned . Though Mr. VValsingham was a protestant Divine , yet he never had read any Catholick Books , and by consequence was ( before he lighted vpon the defence of the Censure ) as ignorant in our Tenets as any lay-protestant , and as avers from reading our Controversies : yet being a conscientious , and judicious person , he thought himself bound vnder pain of damnation , to examin whether what that Book said of Protestants , was true : Particularly when he reflected vpon their putting of , and declining all publick disputations concerning Religion , and their persecuting such as offered to dispute . 2. Reflexion . How easily a company or Corporation of necessitous and mean persons do conspire and concurr in a beneficial fraud ; and how difficult it is to make them confess a fault , in the maintenance wherof their fortunes are concerned , and by consequence how accomptable the protestant layty is to God , for not mistrusting and examining the truth and sincerity of their own Clergy , being so indigent and so interessed persons , and so confidently charged and so frequently caught with falshoods ? what fraud can be more visible then to make men believe that so infamous and dissolute persons as Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin , Cranmer and Beza , &c. were Saints , sent by God to restore his Church vnto it's primitive doctrin , and spirit ? or that they , and all protestants do agree in all matters of faith , against Papists . Their dissentions , vices , and wickedness are so manifest , that they can not be denyed without impudency , and without giving the lye to the whole world , and contradicting their own writings . And yet the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and his Junta of Divines , would face down Mr. Walsingham , that there was no such matter ; and because the poore man humbly petitioned to have the matter decided , by comparing their own books ( which were in the next roome ) with his notes , he was censured and called a foolish bold Knave , impudent fellow , s●●cy Companion &c. and threatned with prison and pillary . And for that they durst not betray the weakness of their cause by so publick and violent proceedings against a known protestant , who desired to continue one of themselves , if protestancy did not prove to be a mistake of Christianity , the Arch-bishop ( to be shut of him ) sent him to the Commissary of St. Albans to be resolved , forsooth , whether Luther acknowledged in his Books that he began the protestant Reformation , and impugned the Mass , adoration of the Sacrament , Invocation of Saints &c. moved therunto by the devill 's arguments , in a real conference between himself and sathan ; as if this passage and others of Luther's and Calvin's works were not to be found in London , or in his Graces Library at Lambeth , as well as at St. Albans ? And after that by his own importunity Mr. Walsingham had obtained of Doctor Covell to shew him Luther's book wherin he acknowledged this conference and conviction of the Devill 's arguments , that the Doctor should interrupt him , and divert the whole discourse with a rush , you see I have this book and many such like . 3. Reflexion . By what particular indirect means , cavills , and Calumnies , the Arch-bishop himself endeavored to maintain the protestant Religion , and discredit the Catholick , delivering to Mr. Walsingham Mr. Bell's libell against the Iesuits , as an invincible fortress against the Roman faith ; and his other book full of corruptions and falsifications , as a very sincere and solid piece ; which falsifications being shewed to them all sitting in their Junta , and Iudgment about that affaire , the Arch-bishop durst not send into his study for the Fathers works that were affirmed by Mr. Walsingham to have bin corrupted by Bell and Calvin , &c. His Lordship 's confessed practise also of burning Catholick Books argues the weaknes of the protestant cause , and proves how much they are afraid their own false dealing , and the impiety of their principles should be discovered . 4. Reflexion . That Mr. Walsingham's case hath bin and is revived and practised now every day , when any conscientious protestant begins to doubt of the safety and sincerity of his Religion . The protestant Clergy tells him that he is in a sure way of salvation , and yet this assertion is against one of their articles of faith , to wit , that which acknowledgeth their Church is fallible in proposing Christ's doctrin and the true sense of Scripture , and by consequence , ( for all they know ) themselves may be in damnable errors . Then they tell him the Papists are Jdolaters , worship Anti-Christ , &c. that our Books of Controversyes are full of lyes , and fables ; and to make good these their impostures , they not only corrupt our Authors , but translate into English all infamous libells , though they treat not of controversies , as the Jansenists Letters , Palafox his relations : and for the renegat Fr. Paulo his history of the Councell of Trent , they swear it is the most exact and sincere work of this age , wheras Cardinal Palavicino , in his answer to the same , and in the very begining , hath set down 300. of Fr : Paulo's vntruths in matter of fact , so palpable ▪ that they seem inexcusable in him , and render others guilty of vnpardonable rashness , and obstinacy , who credit so mistaken or malicious an Author , and preferr his bare word before the vnanimous Testimony of all Christendom , that hath accepted the definitions of the Councell as Catholick truths ; which they would never have don , had they bin such as Fr : Paul● describes . Js it likely that the Bishops , Embassadors , and Prelats , of so different nations , and subjects to Princes of so contrary Interests , who were present at the Councill , and recommended to their flocks , and friends the decrees of Trent as sacred , would conspire to cheat and damne their Souveraigns , relations , and neighbors ? Or that they knew not better how matters went in the Councill , or were not more impartial in relating them , then one Apost●ta Friar , or those persons from whom he pretends to have received his papers and intelligence ? with such pittifull frauds and fashoods are many poor protestant soules deluded , and seduced into eternal damnation ; which they deserve for believing their own Clergy without any further examination of the scruples and doubts which common sense and natural reason doth raise in every one of them that converseth with Roman Catholicks , or observeth the incoherency and inconstancy of protestancy , together with it's singularity and pride of Spirit , contemning the primitive true sense of Scripture declared by vniversal Tradition , and the vnanimous consent of all orthodox Fathers and Councills . Perditio tua ex te Jsrael . 5. Reflexion . One of my Lord of Canterburyes reasons to Mr. Walsingham against crediting the Popish book was , do you not know when two men go to law together , one will speak the worst he can by the other ? And though this ought not to be practised in law suites , much less in controversies of Religion , yet seeing my Lord would have protestants read our books with that prejudice , reason doth dictat that theirs ought not to be read without caution ; especially Seeing every protestant ●eader makes himself supreme Judge of Controversies of Religion , and no Judge ought to give sentence before both sides be heard . Suppose therfore that the protestant and Catholick Clergy are engaged not only in a dispute of Religion , but in a suit of Law , to wit , whether the revenues of the Church of the three Kingdoms belong of right rather to the present possessors , then to the ancient proprietors ? neither party ( say you ) ought to be Iudge in his own cause , who then must decide the business ? The Layty ; Content , let my Lord Chancellor of England ( notwithstanding his known Jnclination to favor and promote protes●●●cy ) be named head of a Committee , for examining , and deciding the question . Let it be tryed in publik Court , which of the two parties are guilty of counterfeiting evidences ? that is , of changing the ancient letter and sense of Scripture , and of corrupting and falsifying the Catholick Fathers and Councells . It is but matter of fact , and may be soon resolved . We have given our charge against our Adversaries long since , in our printed Books , and in this do renew the same . Let the Court command them to put in their answer . And because the Protestant Clergy hath alwayes endeavored to make vs odious and obnoxious to the state , as vnnatural subjects and ill patriots , and will strive now to persuade the world that our zeale in manifesting their frauds and falsifications , proceeds not from a desire of manifesting the truth , but from covetousness of possessing their lands , we doubt not but that in case reason and equity appeareth to be on the Catholick side , the Catholick Clergy will resign vnto his Majesty all their claim and right to the Church livings of the three Kingdoms , to be freely disposed of in pious and publik vses , as he and his Parliament will think most fit for the honor of God , and defence of this Monarchy against forrein enemies , and seditious subjects . Wherin we do no more then duty , and our Brethren did in the like occasion in Q. Maries reign . And as our offer can have no design but duty , so this Tryal can not be against conscience , and may prove to be of great consequence , both for the salvation of soules , and satisfaction of his Majestyes subjects . It can not be against the tenderness of Protestant consciences , because Roman Catholicks ( who pretend to a greater certainty of doctrin , as believing the Roman Catholick Church to be infallible ) have admitted of such a tryal in France an . 1600. in presence of the King , ( then a Catholick ) the princes , and of all the Court ; and hath bin translated into English in the third part of the 3. Conversions . In hopes that Protestants may be moved by such an example , and follow the same Method , I will set down the summe of the Tryal . SVBSECT . IV. A brief relation of a Tryal held in France about Religion , wherof the Lord Chancellor of France was Moderator . IN the year 1600. there came forth a book in Paris vnder the name of Monsieur de Plessis , a Hugonot , and Governor of Samur , against the Mass ; which book making great shew ( as the fashion is ) of abundance and ostentation of Fathers , Councells , Doctors , and stories for his purpose , great admiration seemed to be conceived therof , and the Protestants every where began to tryumph of so famous a work , ( Iust as our prelatiks have don of late , when Doctor Ieremy Taylor 's Dissuasive from Popery was published in Ireland , printed and reprinted in England ) wherupon divers Catholick learned men took occasion to examin the sayd book , of Plessis , ( as others have don lately with Doctor Taylors Dissuasive ) and finding many most egregious deceits , shifts , and falsifications therin , divers books were written against it , and one in particular by a French Iesuit , discovering at least a thousand falshoods of his part . And the Bishop of Eureux ( afterwards Cardinal Peron ) Protested vpon his honor in the pulpit , that he could shew more then 500. Falsifications in the Book for his part . Hereupon the Duke of Bovillon , Monsieur Rosny , Mr. Digiers and other Protestant Lords , began to call for a tryal of the truth , for that it seemed to touch all their honors , as well as that of their Protestant Religion . It were to be wish'd that some of our English Protestant Nobility and Gentry did imitat the French Hugonots , rather in this example of the sense they shewed both of honor and conscience , then in the fashion of their cloaths , cringies and congies . The English Protestants ▪ have more reason to vindicat Doctor Taylor 's Dissuasive from the aspersions of frauds , and falsifications layd to that Bishop's charge , then the french Hugonots , had to vindicat de Plessis his Book , which was but the work of a Lay-man , or at least not set out by order of the Hugonot Clergy , as Bishop Taylor 's Dissuasive was resolved vpon , and published by order of the Protestant prelatik Convocation of Ireland , and both the book , and Taylor the Author , or Amanuensis , so much applauded in England , that the Dissuasive hath often bin printed at London , and the Dissuader's picture ( in his Canonical habit ) placed in the beginning of his book , with a stern and severe countenance , as if he were sharply reprehending St. Ignatius and his learned Jesuits , for cheating and selling of soules ; of which crime they are accused with Mottos set vnder and over their pictures , after Taylor 's preface . If you add to this insulting dress the impudent drift of the book , which is to dissuade all the Irish , and English Catholicks from popery , you will find that the credit and Religion of prelatik Protestants is more deeply engaged in maintaining the truth of Bishop Taylor 's cause , then the French Hugonots in vindicating Monsieur de Plessis , and defending his book against the Mass. But to our story . Though Plessis had challenged Peron to prove the falsifications that Peron had layd to his charge , yet when he saw that Peron accepted of the challenge , Plessis began to shrink and seek delayes , but by the King 's express command both parties appeared before his Majesty at Fontainbleau , where Plessis came with five or Six Ministers on his side , to which sort of people , it seems , he gave too much credit , and vpon their word , took all his arguments , as appeareth by the words of Peron . After that Peron had offered to shew 500. enormous and open falsifications in his only book of the Mass , he addeth ; and moreover , I say , if that after this our conference ended , he will take vpon him for his part to choose amongst all his citations of his Book or Books , any such authorities as he thinketh most sure against vs , I do bind my self for conclusion of all , to refute the whole choice , and to shew that neither in his sayd Book against the Mass , nor in his Treatise of the Church , nor in his Common-wealth of Traditions , is there to be found so much as any one place among them all , which is not either falsly cited , or impertinent to the matter , or vnprofitably alledged &c. neither do J hereby pretend to blame him for any other thing , then that he hath bin over credulous in believing the fals relations and Collections of others that have endeavored to abuse the industry and authority of his pen. This disputation ( saith Peron in his answer to Plessis Challenge ) shall not be like to others in former times , wherein were examined matters of doctrin , and the truth therof , &c. In examination wherof the shifts and sleights of the Disputers , and other disguising of the matters , might make the truth vncertain to the hearers . But all Questions in this disputation shall only be questions of fact , whether places be truly alledged or no ? for tryal wherof it shall only be needfull to bring eyes for Iudges to behold whether the citations which we do accuse of falshood , be so indeed in the Authors as Plessis hath alledged in his Book : And yet of the overthrow of these so many Falsifications gathered together , ensueth the overthrow and dishonor of the cause which is defended by such weapons . And consequently we are much bound to the holy providence of of Almighty God , that he hath permitted in this last assault of Hereticks , the Ministers of France , to have layd all the heads of their fals Impostures and deceitfull dealings vpon one Body , to the end they may be all cut off at one blow : and that the simple people by them abused , seeing discovered the false and vnfaithfull dealings of those vpon whose fidelity they grounded their faith , may forsake them hereafter , and return to that faith which is the pillar and sure ground of all truth . This is an excellent Method , and Peron's words may be very well applied to B. Taylor 's Dissuasive from Popery . But to our relation . The Iudges of the conference were besides the Chancellor of France , who was Moderator , the president de Tou , a neere Kinsman to Plessis , Monsieur Pitheu , his great friend , and Monsieur le Fevre Master of the Prince of Conde , all Catholicks . On the other side for the Protestants were named the president Calignon Chancellor of Navarre , and Monsieur de Fresne Conaye president , and Monsieur Causabon Reader to his Majesty in Paris , all earnest and learned Protestants . The day before the tryal , Peron , to deale more plainly and like a friend , sent vnto Plessis 60. places taken out of his book , vpon which he meant to press him , and as his words are to begin the play , of which 60. Plessis choose out 19. that seemed to him most defensible . But the next day the tryal being begun ; after Peron had declared there were foure thousand places falsified in Plessis his Book , only 9. of the 19. could be examined , though they sate 6. houres , and all Iudged against Plessis by common consent ; wherupon Plessis fell sick that night , vomiting blood &c. and could be never got to proceed in the tryal , and went from Paris to Samur without taking leave of the King , or seeing the Lord Chancellor . This proof of wilfull Falsifications ( wherby alone it seems protestancy can be maintained every where els as well as in England ) occasioned the conversion of very many in France , as the King's Lieutenant in Limoge , and his wife , with divers of the nobility , and no few Ministers , wherof one was Tirius a Scotchman , master of a Colledge in Nismes ; and an other who was Nephew to John Calvin . The Coppy of a letter written by a person of quality about this conference . SIR . Heere hath bin some foure dayes past a great Conference at Fontainbleau between Monsieur Peron Bishop of Eureux , and Monsieur Plessis Mornay Governor of Samur . The King with many Princes were present , and Iudges chosen and appointed for both parties . In the end Plessis Mornay was vtterly disproved and confounded by a general consent of both sides , and shamed ; in so much as the King rose vp from his place , and swore Ventre Gry he had heard and seen enough of Plessis falsities , and that by Act of Parliament he would cause his books to be burned , saying that himself had all his youth time bin abused and carried away with their corruptions &c. The Hugonots are struck more dead with this accident then if they had lost a battle of 40. thousand men , and Plessis Mornay himself is faln sick vpon it , vomits blood , and looks like himself &c. Paris 10. May. 1600. King Henry 4. letter to the Duke of Espernon vpon the same subject . MY friend . The Diocess of Eureux hath overcom Samur ; and the sweet manner of proceeding that hath bin vsed , hath taken away all occasion to say that any force hath bin vsed beside the only force of truth . The Bearer hereof was present at the combat , who will inform you what mervailes J have don therin . Certainly it is one of the greatest blows that hath bin given for the Church of God this long time for the manifestation of this error . By this means we shall reduce more in one year of them that are separated from the Church , then by any other way in fifty years . There were a large discourse to be made of each their actions , but the same were too long to write . The Beare● will tell you the manner which J would have all my servants to observe for reaping fruit of this holy work . Good night my friend . And for that I know what pleasure you will take hereof you are the only man to whom J have written it , This ● . of May 1600. HENRY . The Authors falsified and the sentence given against Plessis . THe 〈◊〉 places or Authors corrupted by Plessis and his Minist●●● , went 〈◊〉 about the real presence ▪ Durandus against Transubstantiation ; St. Chrysostom against prayer to 〈◊〉 , twice . 〈…〉 against prayer to Saints . St. Cyril against worshiping the holy Cross. The Code or Imperial 〈◊〉 to the same 〈…〉 against honoring our B. Lady . 〈◊〉 against worshiping of Images . The particulars wherof , may be seen in the printed Acts of this Conference , and in the three Conversions part 3. translated into English. But to satisfie the curiosity of many ▪ J will copy the abridgment of the Judges sentence , which was delivered immediatly after Conference by the Secretaries to divers persons of quality . Vpon the first two places of Scotus and Durandu● the sentence was , that Monsieur Plessis had taken the objection for the resolution . Vpon the places of St. Chrysostom , That he had left out that which he should have put in . Vpon the fifth place of St. Hierom , That he ought to have alledged the passage entire 〈◊〉 it was in the Author ; vpon the six place of St. Cyril , that 〈◊〉 passage alledged out of St. Cyril was not to be found in him . The seaventh place out of the Emperors Theodorus and Valens , 〈◊〉 Plessi● had alledged truly Crinitus , but that Crinitus was abu●●● . Vpon the eight place out of St. Bernard , That it had bin 〈◊〉 Plessis had cited the place distinctly as it lay in the Author , with 〈…〉 of any thing in the midst . And finaly vpon the ninth 〈◊〉 out of Theodoret against Images , That the passage alledged 〈◊〉 not to be vnderstood of Images , but of Idols ; and that this 〈◊〉 by the words which Plessis had omitted in his allegation . 〈◊〉 this suffice for French falsifications , let vs return to the English , wherof there is such abundance , and so great variety , ●hat J can hardly resolve which to 〈◊〉 vpon . SECT . VIII . Protestant falsifications to persuade that the Roman Catholick doctrin is inconsistent with the Soveraignty and safety of Kings , and with civil Society between Catholicks and Protestants . THe Protestant Clergy seeing their frauds and falsifications of Scripture , Fathers , and Councells cleerly discouered , and that after Queen Elizabeths death they had no reason to make Catholik Religion odious to the line of the Stewards ( our Tenets favoring their right against the deceased Queen , and other Protestants pretences ) resolved vpon an other way to secure their Church-livings against the title and claim of the Roman Clergy ; which was , to maintain in their Books , that it is impossible for a Papist to be a good Subject , because ( say Protestants ) it is a principle among them , that in some cas●● the Pope may depose a King : So that now the Protestant preachers are become shrewd Polititians , and defend their doctrin and revenues by reasons of state . One of the chief of these Church-Polititians was Thomas Morton , late Bishop of Duresme , more famous for his wicked impostures , then for his many volumes . He began with a Treatise of Rebellion and Equivocation , which having bin answered , and restored vpon himself and his Protestants in the begining of K. James his reign ; and his wilfull falshoods layd open to the world , he set forth a pamphlet , which he called a preamble of his ( promised , but never performed ) Reply ; and in that Preamble omits almost all the material accusations and objections of his adversary F. Persons : and to such few as himself had attempted to answer , he added new lyes and impostures , or layd the fault of his own former falsifications , vpon his Brethren , who joyned with him in the work , as euery one may see in F. Persons Quiet and sober Reckning with Mr. Morton , out of which we will borrow some few examples . Bishop Morton's falsifications about the lawfulness of Killing a Tyrant . AN other like trick he playeth vs ( saith Persons ) abusing a place of Doctor Boucher the French man , de Justa abdicatione &c. therby to make all Catholicks Odious , as allowing his doctrin . He cites Bouchers words thus . Tyrannum occidere honestum est , quod cuivis impune facere permittitur , quod ex communi consensu dico . And then he Englisheth the same thus ; any man may lawfully murther a Tyrant , which I defend by common consent . But he that shall read the place in the Author himself , shall find that he holdeth the very contrary , to wit , that a privat man may not kill a Tyrant that is not first Iudged and declared to be a publick enemy by the Common-wealth . And he proveth the same at large out of Scripture , and by the Decree of the Councell of Constance . But the words which I say by common consent , are added by Morton , and not 〈◊〉 be found in the Author . Morton excuseth his fraud and folly by saying the like are in other Chapters as Mirum esse in affir●●●●do consensum , which words are of other matters , and spoken vpon other occasions , and not annexed to the former sentence of Doctor Boucher . B●· Morton's Falsification of Catholicks against the Soveraignty of Princes ; and how he excuseth himself with saying he received it from the Arch-bishop of Canterbury . BIshop Morton in his Book of Discovery pag. 8. set down this fals proposition ; That all Catholick Priests did profess a prerogative of the people over Princes ; for proof therof he citeth this position of Mr. Reynolds in the place aforesayd , Rex humana creatura est , qaia ab hominibus constituta : and englisheth it in this manner , A King is but a creature of man's creation , where you see first , that in the Translation he addeth , but , and man's creation of himself , for that the latin hath no such adversative clause as but , nor creation , but rather the word c●●stitution . Secondly , these words are not the words of Mr. Reynolds , but only cited by him out of S. Peter . And thirdly they are alledged here by Morton to a quite contrary sense from the whole drift , discourse , and meaning of the Author , which was to extoll and magnifie the authority of Princes , as descending from God , and not to debase the same . For proof hereof whosoever will look vpon the book , and place it self before mentioned , shall find that Mr. Reynolds purpose therin is , to prove that albeit earthly principality be called by the Apostle humana Creaturae , yet that it is originally from God , and by his commandement to be obeyed . Morton's Answer . THis allegation is of all which yet J have found most obnoxious , and liable vnto taxation ; which ( God knoweth that J lye not ) J received from suggestion , as the Author therof R. C. can 〈◊〉 . For 〈◊〉 that time I had not that Ros●●ns , alias Reynolds ; neither by that present importunity of occasions could J seek after him , which I confess , is greatly exorbitant , for I received it as a testimony debasing the authority of Kings : so 〈◊〉 When J was advertised ( saith Persons ) that R. C. did signify Ric. Cant. J was driven into a far greater mervaile , how Mr. Morton could be permitted to publish such a maner ( the thing having to pass the view of R. C. his officers ) and how he could presume to have more care of his own credit , then of the others that is head and Cheiftain . But though the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury did suggest this calumny to Morton , it 's probable he did not English 〈◊〉 for him , but left that labour to himself . The truth is , the Arch-Bishop , and Morton , and all the Protestant Clergy were resolved to make Catholicks and their Religion odious by any means whatsoever ; and finding they could not do it with truth , it was judged convenient for preserving aboue two Millions Sterl . per an . for themselves and their Children , to effect it by falshood . And to the same intent and purpose did their whole prelatik Synod held at London 1603. ( Can. 30. ) contrive and conspire in a notable cosenage , trumpery , and calumny against the Roman Catholik doctrin ; when giving the reason ( to satisfie puritans ) why they retain the vse of the sign of the Cross in Baptism ? they sayd they do it , because the same hath bi● ever accompanied ( among the prelatick Protestants ) with sufficient cautions and exceptions against all popish error and superstition ; and forsooth , that the world may vnderstand from what Popish error they have freed the same , they signify , that the Church of England since the abolishing of popery , have ever held and taught , that the sign of the Cross vsed in baptism , is no part of the substance of that Sacrament , and that the Infant baptised is by virtue of baptism ( before it 〈◊〉 signed with the sign of the Cross ) received into the Congr●gation of Christ's Flock , as a perfect member therof , and not by any power ascribed to the sign of the Cross &c. ●●erupon they conclude , that the vse of the sign of the Cross in Baptism , being thus purged from all popish superstition , and 〈◊〉 , and reduced in the Church of England to the primary 〈◊〉 of it &c. is to be reverently retained and vsed . Thus teach 〈◊〉 in their foresaid Synod . And yet it can not be shewed 〈◊〉 as in one particular Roman Catholick Doctor or 〈◊〉 , that the sign of the Cross is an essential or substan●●●● 〈◊〉 of Baptism . Witnes K. James , ( nay the Bishops th●●selves that make this their imposture the ground of a 〈◊〉 of their Church ) who in the Conference of Hampton 〈◊〉 sayd , that he vnderstood by the Bishops , yea and 〈◊〉 it himself to be true , that the papists themselves did never 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉 or spiritual grace to the sign of the Cross in Baptism ▪ Is it possible that lay people can be so ignorantly de●●t , and dull , as to let a Clergy enjoy millions of reve●●●●pon such notoriously fals , and forged evidences ? The protestant Falsification to persuade that the Canon law doth warrant deposition of Kings by the Pope . MAster Morton in his discovery pag. 34. hath these words . Except ( saith the Romish pretence ) there were a way of deposing Apostata Princes , God had not provided sufficiently for his Church . And for this he citeth the Constitution extravagant of Pope Bonifacius , and saith , this objection is in your extravagants , and so it may be called , because it rangeth extra , that is without the bounds of God's ordinance . &c. Heere first this sentence is not in the Popes extravagant at all , but only in a certain addition to the ordinary Gloss , or Commentary of Iohn Picard ; which addition was made by Petrus Bertrandus a late writer . Secondly , this Commentary sayes nothing of deposing Apostata princes , but only affirming the foresaid opinion of Canonists to be true , that Christ was Lord absolutely in his life over all , not only in spiritual authority , but in temporal also , he inferreth therby , Christ should not have sufficiently provided for the Government of his Church and Kingdom vpon earth , nisi vnicum post se tal●● Vicarium reliquisset , qui haec omnia posset , except he had left some such one Vicar after him as should be able to perform al these things , according as necessity shall require ; which later clause Mr. Morton cut of , as he added the other abou● ▪ Apostata Princes . Bishop Morton in his preamble pag. 110. doth answer thus . For citing the extravagant of the Pope , an ingenious reader would have vnderstood a figure called Synecdoche , where the part is put for the whole , as when we say , this man shall not come vnder my roof , meaning by roof which is but a part of my house , the whole house it self : so here by extravagants might have bin meant the whole body of their Constitutions , which contain both extravagants and Glosses . &c. This is the first part of his answer , that we must vnderstand him by a figure , pars pro toto , as if a man should say in divinity , the Scripture hath this or that , because Tyndales Glosses , or some Commentaries , or annotations vpon it have . But indeed here is no Synecdoche , but only the figure of plain lying ; for , neither are the extravagant Constitutions of Popes , parts of the Glosses , nor are the Glosses parts of the Constitutions ; and much less may additions , or annotations be accompted any part at all of the same . The second part of his answer is no less fraudulent . Pope Gregory 13. ( saith Morton ) hath ratified the foresaid Glosses and annotations , with priviledge , and authority equivalent and answerable to the authority of the Decretals and extravagants themselves ; wherof he inferreth , that whether a man do cite ●●cretals , Extravagants , Glosses , and annotations , all is one , for that all have equivalent authority . Pope Gregory 13. being demanded licence to print the Canon law a new ; prefixed an epistle before the decretals of 〈◊〉 with this title , ad futuram rei memoriam , wherin he 〈◊〉 licence to Paulus Constabilis to review the same , and to 〈◊〉 printer to print it exactly according to the Roman exem●●● , saying among other things , therupon . Vt hoc Iuris Ca●●●ci corpus fideliter & incorrupté juxta exemplar Romae impres●●●●mprun● possit : That the Canon law may be faithfully 〈◊〉 without corruption printed , according to the Copy set 〈◊〉 at Rome . So that Mr. Morton will needs have this 〈◊〉 of printing , an equalling the credit and authority of all 〈◊〉 things printed . As for his adding the words Apostata princes , 〈◊〉 ●yes , though they be not in the text of the Glosses , yet 〈◊〉 matter handled in that Gloss may be extended to them . Protestant Falsification , to persuade that Catholiks may cheat any excommunicated persons of their lawfull debts . WIll you heare a case or two more ( saith Parsons ) out of the Canon law , how dexterous Sir Thoma● is in corrupting that which he loveth not . You 〈◊〉 read in the fourth page of his pamphlet or preamble an ancient decree ( for so he calleth it ) alledged by him out of Gratian in the Gloss , determining that though a man hath sworn to pay money to one that is excommunicated , yet is he not bound to pay the same , and he citeth the latin text thus : Si juravi me soluturum alicui pecuniam , qui excommunio●tur , non teneor ei solvere . If I have sworn to pay money to any man that is excommunicated , I am not bound to pay it : adding this reason , quia qualitercunque poss●mus , debemus ●exare malo● ▪ vt cess●nt a m●●o , because we ought to vex evil men by what means soever we may , to the end they may cease from doing evil . The truth of this matter is , that these words be not found in any text of law , or decision of any pope , or Councell ; but words of the Gloss that contein only a certain objection vpon a Clause of a Canon , concerning promise to be observed to one that is excommunicated , after the promise was made , and the objection 〈◊〉 doubt is made in these word● by the Author of the Gloss or Commentary 〈…〉 quid 〈◊〉 si juravi &c. But what will you say if J have 〈…〉 to any person , or have promised the same vnder 〈…〉 , and in the mean space be to whom I made the 〈…〉 excommunicated , am I bound to pay the same or not 〈…〉 question , and then he argueth on both sides , and 〈◊〉 for the negative , videtur quod non , it seems J am not 〈◊〉 the Canon law saith ( causa 25. q. 6. ) that we ought 〈…〉 wicked men &c. But afterwards coming to give his 〈…〉 solution , he saith thus , veriu● credo quod licet ille non habeat 〈◊〉 petendi , tamen debet ei solui . I do believe the truer opinion to be , that albeit be , that is so excommunicated , have no right to demand his money , yet is the other bound to pay him ; so that Morton ▪ imposeth vpon his 〈◊〉 , the objection for the resolution , cutting of deceitfully the first words , sed quid dici● , si jura●● &c. and alledging the reason of the objection quia qualitercunque possumus &c. for the reason of the solution . Morton answereth , the truth is I took these allegations vpon credit &c. of one Stock a learned preacher ( saith he ) of London . And Stock beginneth his recognisance thus , I Richard Stock brought this allegation with some others , to the Author of the discovery &c. So like honest fellows they divide the same between them , Stock for his fraudulent lending , and Morton for his beggarly borrowing , and without doubt improving of the fraud : it being incredible 〈◊〉 Stock would deliver it as Morton sets is down . Bp ▪ Morton's Falsification , to persuade that Cathotholiks hold it lawfull to murther and massacre Protestants . IN the 6. page of Morton's discovery , he hath this grievous 〈…〉 out of the Canon law against Catholiks . 〈◊〉 , felij vel consanguinei non dicuntur , sed juxta legem , sit 〈◊〉 super 〈◊〉 , vt fundas sanguinem ipsorum . And then he 〈◊〉 thus , Apud Grat. Gloss. in decret . lib. 5. ex decret . Greg. 9. 〈…〉 . cap. legi . Which words he englisheth thus , 〈…〉 termed either Children , or kindred , but according 〈…〉 , thy hand must be against them to spill their blood . 〈…〉 in the Margent he setteth down this special prin●●● note , The professed bloody Massacre against the Protestants with●●● distinction of sex or Kindred . First of all is to be considered that this Gloss or 〈◊〉 of the Canon law , which here is both vntruly cited , 〈◊〉 malitiously applied , is vpon a Canon begining , si quis Episcopus ; which Canon is taken out of the third Councell of Carth●ge , wherin the famous Doctor St. Austin was present , and 〈◊〉 device of the Canon is , that if any Bishop should institute hereticks or pagans for his heires , whether they were Kinsmen or 〈◊〉 ; ei Anathema dicatur , let him be accursed &c. now the 〈◊〉 yeilding a reason of this severity , saith , Quia isti haeret●●●am non dicuntur filij vel consanguinei , vnde dicitur in lege , si 〈◊〉 tuus , & amicus tuus , & vxor tua depravare voluerit veritatem , sit manus tua super illos ; For that these hereticks are not n●w called Children or Kinsfolks , therfore as such they cannot be made Inheritors by eccles●astical men . Wherupon it is sayd in the law ( of Deuteronomy ) if thy Brother , or friend , or wife will go about to deprave the truth , let thy hand be vpon them . And presently he citeth to the same effect the authority of St. Hierom in an other Canon and volume of the law , where the holy Doctor excusing to his friend Riparius a Priest , his earnest desire and zeal to have Vigilantius ▪ the heretik punished by his Bishops , alledgeth divers examples of severity in like cases out of the Scriptures , as of Phinees , Elias ▪ Symon Chananaeus ; St. Peter , St. Paul , and lastly citeth also the aforesaid words of God's ordinance in Deuteronomy , If thy Brother , thy friend , thy wife , &c. shall go about to pervert thee from God's true worship &c. heare him not , nor conceal him , but bring him 〈◊〉 Judgme●● and let thy hand be vpon him first , and then after the hand of all the people &c. which is to be vnderstood accordi●● 〈◊〉 the form of Law appointed afterwards in the 17. Chap●●● , that he be orderly brought forth to Iudgment , and 〈…〉 sentence is past against him , he which heard or 〈…〉 commit the sin , and is a witness against him , must 〈◊〉 the first stone at him , and the rest must follow . And this also doth the ordinary Gloss of Lyranus , and others vpon those texts of Scripture declare . And now let the Judicious Reade● consi●●● how many corruptions this Protestant Bishop hath vsed to 〈◊〉 forth to his purpose this one litle distracted Text for proof of professed bloody massacres , in ended by Catholicks against Protestants . For first , he corrupteth the words of the Gloss , leaving out the beginning Quia isti Haeretici , which 〈◊〉 to the vnderstanding of the Author's meaning ; as also he lest out the reaso●●●ledged by the Gloss out of God's own words in Deuteronomy , to wit the wilfull corruption of his truth . Then he corrupteth the meaning both of the Gloss and Canon , depraving that to a wicked sense of bloody massacring without distinction of sex or Kindred , which the Canon and Councell of Carthage with St. Austin , meant only of civil punishment against heretiks , to wit , that they should not be made heires to Ecclesiastical men . He perverteth in like manner St. Hieriom's intent , which was that heretiks and namely Vigilantius , for denying the lawfulness of praying to Saints , worshipping th●ir Reliques &c. ) should be punished but by order and form of Law and not that any one shall Kill an other , and much less by bloody massacres . Lastly he presumeth to re●ort the very words of God himself in the Law , by translating fundas sanguinem ipsorum , 〈◊〉 their blood , in steed of shed their blood , for that to spill 〈◊〉 is always in Scripture taken in the worst sense , for murth●●●ng or killing vnjustly . The good Bishop remits vs for an answer to the allega●●●● of this place of Gratian , to his friend Stock once more . 〈◊〉 Stock doth not take vpon him to justifie any thing therin 〈◊〉 then the citation to be true , which notwithstanding is 〈◊〉 as every one may see in the Text. Morton in his preamble denyeth the foresaid Canon to have bin decreed in the 〈◊〉 Councel of Carthage . therfore ( saith he ) must his 〈◊〉 own terms of falshood , fraud , treachery , 〈◊〉 vpon himself . But let any one peruse the said Councell , 〈◊〉 he will find decreed in the 13. Canon . Vt Episcopi vel Cleric● &c. That neither Bishops nor Clergy men shall bestow any of their goods vpon any that be not Catholikly Christians , though they be their Kinsfolks . And the Councell of Hippo where St. Austin was Bishop , which Councell professeth to m●ke Abbreviationes Concilij Carthaginensis tertii , an abridgment of the third Carthage Councell , hath this Canon , That Bishops and Clergy men shall bestow nothing of their goods vpon any but such as are Catholiks . Bp. Morton's Falsification to assert the King's supremacy . POpe Leo writing to a true Catholik Emperor ( saith Morton ) hath these words . You may not be ignorant that your princely power is given vnto you , not only extinguished : The oblation of Sacrifice ( the Mass ) is intermitted , the hollowing of Chrysm is ceased , and all 〈◊〉 Mysteries of our Religion have withdrawn themselves from the parricidial hands of those heretiks that have mur●hered their own Father● and Patriarch Proterius , burned his 〈◊〉 and cast the ashes into the ayre . This then was the cause and occasion wherin the holy 〈◊〉 Leo did implore the help and secular arm of Leo the 〈◊〉 , for chastising these turbulent heretiks , for the 〈◊〉 of the Church . And is this all that is exacted of 〈◊〉 by the Supremacy ? Is this the substance of the 〈◊〉 ? we know the English Prelatik Clergy are now asha●●● to acknowledg that their own spiritual caracter and juris●●●tion is d●●ived from Queen Elizabeth's shee supremacy ; but 〈…〉 they did own ( 8. Eliz. ) what now they 〈◊〉 every man may see how vngratfully and confidently 〈◊〉 contradict what is extant in the Act of Parliament 8. 〈◊〉 and in their Episcopal Oath of homage , wherin it is 〈◊〉 that all spiritual Jurisdiction , supreme power , order , 〈◊〉 , and authority , over all the state Ecclesiastical of their 〈…〉 , is in the Kings of England : and that in 〈◊〉 of the prerogative they may by their Letters patents 〈◊〉 only authorise Arch-Bishops , and Bishops to consecrat 〈…〉 Caracter , but that they may authorise any 〈…〉 not Bishops to consecrat and make any men 〈…〉 Arch-Bishops , as appeareth by the words of the 〈…〉 and herevpon all ambiguities of Arch-Bishop Parker ▪ 〈◊〉 Cammerades consecrations , were answered ▪ and they 〈◊〉 declared to be Bishops , because the Queen had in her let●●●● patents dispensed with all causes of doubts , imperfection , 〈◊〉 disability that might in any wise be objected against the same , and with the very state and condition of the Consecrator● ▪ who indeed were no bishops as hath bin proved . It being then manifest that none can give what himself hath not , if the Kings of England can give to a lay man or to 〈◊〉 falsifications set down together by Bp. Morton to prove that we hold Popes can not be deposed nor be Hereticks . THe Authors of the doctrin of deposing Kings in case of heresy ( saith Morton ) do profess concerning Popes , 〈◊〉 that they cannot possibly be heretiks , as Popes , and consequently can not be deposed : not saith Bellarmin by any 〈◊〉 ecclesiastical or temporal , no not by all Bishops assem●●●● in a Councell : not saith Carerius , though he should 〈◊〉 any thing prejudicial to the vniversal state of the Church ; 〈◊〉 , saith Azorius , though he should neglect the Canons ●cclesiastical , or pervert the lawes of Kings : not , saith 〈…〉 , though he should carry infinit multitude of 〈◊〉 with him to hell . And these forenamed Authors do 〈…〉 for confirmation of this doctrin , the vniversal 〈◊〉 Romish ●●●ines and Canonists , for the space of 〈…〉 years . 〈◊〉 these 〈◊〉 are as many notorious and shamless lyes , 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 , and Authors named by Morton . For first , 〈…〉 which he mentioneth there in the Text , to 〈◊〉 Bellarmi●● , 〈◊〉 , Azor , and Gratian , do expressly 〈…〉 hold the contrary to that he affirmeth out 〈…〉 that they teach and prove by many arguments , 〈…〉 may fall into heresies , and for the same be 〈…〉 the Church , or rather are ipso facto dep●sed , and 〈…〉 to declared by the Church . But yet not content with 〈◊〉 Morton citeth other foure or five Authors in the Margent , 〈◊〉 , Valentia , Salmeron , Canus , Stapleton , and Costerius ; all 〈◊〉 in the very place by him cited ▪ are expressly against 〈◊〉 And is not this strange dealing ? Js it not a strange Religion that must be supported by falshood ? Are not they strange men , that give a Million Sterl . per an . to a Clergy for thus deceiving and deluding their Flocks , and damning their soules 〈◊〉 opinions , or against the practise of the Church even 〈◊〉 general Councells , accepted and connived at by the tempo●●● Soveraigns themselves the effects of such opinions may be 〈◊〉 securely suppressed by s●lencing the Doctors ▪ then by 〈◊〉 the doctrin . 〈◊〉 popular and plausible ●n opinion it is , that God 〈…〉 his Church and people , to defend themselves , 〈…〉 their litle Children from being erroneously 〈…〉 the force and violence of an heathen or hereticall 〈…〉 may be seen in the Author ▪ that treat of this 〈…〉 that if it be not lawfull to oppose the change 〈…〉 without 〈◊〉 the sin and scandal of 〈…〉 would have 〈…〉 greater regard to the 〈…〉 one ▪ or few Princes ▪ then to the eternal salva●●●● 〈…〉 souls ; And though it were granted 〈…〉 were come 〈◊〉 of discretion , did run 〈…〉 the rigor of persecutions , 〈…〉 any other Religion 〈…〉 heresy 〈◊〉 the Prince doth introduce 〈…〉 their succee●●ng posterity ) must perish 〈…〉 not appearing in their defence , 〈…〉 change of true Religion . 〈…〉 innocent posterity from 〈…〉 answers ( in his Treatise of 〈…〉 vnder colo●● of Religion ●dit . 〈…〉 nothing so likly to entail true 〈…〉 posterity , as their Ancestors 〈…〉 their sufferings , wh●● they shall heare , and be assured 〈◊〉 Testimony , th●● their fore●fathers thus hoped in God , 〈◊〉 choose to dye , or suffer , rather then to rebell 〈◊〉 the King. Besides ( saith 〈◊〉 ) the gratest preju●●●● which that posterity can suffer by their Ancestors non ●●●●●tance , is 〈…〉 be brought vp in a contrary Religion , to heare that 〈…〉 , but sure not to have their eares deaf●● against all 〈◊〉 , when they shall be represented . He 〈…〉 they , whose predecessors were most zealous 〈◊〉 , and suffered for their faith . The first Earle of South - 〈◊〉 suffered much for opposing Seamor , when he , and 〈◊〉 planted Protestancy in England . And yet we see 〈…〉 influence this hath vpon his posterity ; and this is 〈◊〉 of most of the Nobility , and even of the Royal 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 the Doctor saith , Posterity have not their eares 〈…〉 other Religions when they shall be represented . 〈…〉 and England they have . It 's treason by the law 〈◊〉 with any of our King's Subjects concerning the truth 〈…〉 Roman Catholiks Religion : and we know what other 〈…〉 taken not only to deaf , but to blind them from 〈…〉 the evidences produced against the falshood of 〈…〉 with Protestants may consider such as we present 〈…〉 book . Doctor Hammond could not be 〈…〉 much himself contributed to make his Countrey - 〈…〉 and blind in Religion , especialy after that Mr. 〈…〉 exposed his mistakes , or wilfull falsifications , to the 〈…〉 . But 〈◊〉 return to the question . 〈…〉 granted and maintained by Protestant Authors 〈…〉 Soveraign , or bloudy Tyrant ( whose 〈…〉 and practises reach no further then the body ) 〈…〉 resisted , and deposed , they will find 〈…〉 to give a reason why the soul may not claim 〈…〉 ; vnless they believe that the soul is 〈…〉 that there is no such thing as Eternity . Besides ; such Catholiks as maintain that the Pope in case 〈◊〉 , and persecution , may depose Kings , or at least 〈◊〉 that ipso facto they are deposed by God ( who gives 〈◊〉 their power and Iurisdiction not to destroy ▪ but to edify ) 〈◊〉 them to flatter the Pope therby , for that they make 〈…〉 himself more subject to deposition , then Kings ; because the Pope must be deposed for any heretical opinion he 〈◊〉 ; Kings ( say they ) can not , vnless they force their subjects 〈◊〉 considerable parts and Princes of Christendom ; that our ●●●●rnment and people seem to apprehend their own 〈◊〉 against vs Catholiks doth make vs the object of a 〈…〉 , and doth gain for themselves nothing but a 〈◊〉 enmity of such powerfull Monarchs as have any sense , 〈…〉 the Roman Religion . ●●condly , Though a King should persecute Catholiks , and 〈◊〉 and sanguinary laws compell his Subjects to profess 〈◊〉 , if this persecution be pleasing to the generality of his 〈◊〉 the Pope's Censures and sentences can not be of much 〈◊〉 prejudice , or deprive him of his dominions ; and as 〈…〉 Apostolik's temporal power , it neither is so 〈…〉 it self , nor so applicable to these our remote 〈…〉 to deserve to be made the object of our Protestant 〈…〉 , or fe●rs ; we see how litle Q. Elizabeth valued 〈…〉 ; because she had the affection of her 〈…〉 we search into history , we shall find that the 〈…〉 Rome his censures never prejudiced any Soveraign 〈…〉 not first lost the hearts of his own people . The Pope 〈…〉 aw ( by his sentences and excommunica●●●● 〈…〉 of the Italian Princes , and Common-wealths ; 〈…〉 have demonstrated how vneffectual his 〈…〉 , even against those petty Princes , and 〈…〉 ; what need therfore powerful and 〈…〉 Princes and nations fear a Iurisdiction they 〈…〉 , seing ▪ the so much talked of papal 〈…〉 so litle prevail against Catholiks that own it ? 〈◊〉 other reason why the Popes spiritual supremacy is not 〈◊〉 dangerous , is , because they who acknowldge the power , 〈◊〉 themselves the liberty of judging of the lawfulness of 〈◊〉 ●pplication , and to know whether it be justly exercised by 〈…〉 ; whose censures and sentences are limited to so 〈◊〉 causes , and conditions known to every Catholik Lawyer 〈◊〉 Divin , that they can hardly disturbe a state , if any of the previous admonitions and requisit formalities be omitted ; were acknowledged ) would employ it now as willin●●● to the advantage of the english Monarchy , as his 〈◊〉 did in the reign of Q. Mary , by condescending that 〈◊〉 Church revenues may be spent in more pious and publik 〈◊〉 then they are at present . Notwithstanding the visible advantages which 〈◊〉 vnto all Catholik Soveraigns by admitting the 〈◊〉 of the Pope's spiritual Iurisdiction in their Kingdoms and ●●minions , and the litle or no danger which therby can come 〈◊〉 ●●otestant Princes ; yet because Q. Elizabeth was proceeded 〈◊〉 by the Sea of Rome ( whose case was very different from 〈◊〉 of the Stewards , vndoubted heires of the Crown ) no 〈◊〉 of England ( saith the Protestant Clergy ) must trust 〈◊〉 Roman Catholicks ; so many and so malignant are 〈◊〉 suggestions and suspitions which these Ministers endeavor 〈◊〉 in privy Councellors , and the members of Parliaments 〈◊〉 , ( and all this to reape the benefit of the Church lands 〈◊〉 ●●●●selves ) that a fancyed possibility ( without any 〈◊〉 ) of disturbing the peace and Government , is preached 〈◊〉 printed by these Sir Polls , to be a sufficient reason of state 〈…〉 Roman Catholiks vncapable of serving the state ; 〈◊〉 which is wors , they have lately endeavored ( by their 〈◊〉 in Court , Countrey , and Parliament ▪ ) to question the 〈◊〉 prerogative , and his Councell's prudence for publishing 〈…〉 ( which he had promised at Breda ) in favor of 〈◊〉 conferences : so conscious they are of their own guilt , 〈◊〉 they doubt not but the least countenance shewed to 〈◊〉 , will discover the frauds wherby themselves deprive 〈◊〉 estate of so vast a revenue . And because the chief Ministers 〈◊〉 state are ( out of their piety , or policy ) inclined to 〈◊〉 moderation towards tender consciences , and the Protestant 〈◊〉 dare not oppose it directly , they cease not ( by means of some false Brethren , and debaucht Friars ) to render all good intentions for our relief vneffectual , by inculcating the necessity of a publik instrument , not much differing from the Oath of alleagiance which they framed in King James his reign , that insteed of acknowledging the Kings temporal Soveraignty ▪ gives him an vnheard of jurisdiction over souls ; or at least , ( by reason of the ambiguous and offensive wording therof ) doth engage even Catholiks as will take it ▪ in an endless quarrell with their spiritual Superiors , without rendring therby any service to their temporal Soveraign , but rather making themselves vnfit to appeare for his , or their own right in Ecclesiasticall Catholik Courts . Therfore as well to satisfie the State concerning our allegiance and fidelity to our King , as to avoyd the obloquys ▪ and artifices of the Protestant Clergy , we humbly offer to his Majesty and his Ministers 〈◊〉 , that we shall swear or sign any instrument or engagement 〈◊〉 fidelity to him , which Catholik Subjects sweare or sign to their Catholik soveraigns . To exact more strict obedience from so inconsiderable a party as we are vnder a Protestant Prince , against the Bishop of Rome's pretention , then any Catholiks of the world think fit either in conscience or pruden●●● to give to their own 〈◊〉 , seems not necessary , and would savor more 〈◊〉 presumption in vs against the Church of Rome , then of affection to the Crown of England . 3. They who teach that Kings 〈…〉 d●posed for heresy , maintain they may be also d●posed 〈◊〉 Tyranny ; and notwithstanding that 〈…〉 their Soveraigns taxes , Tyranny , then their opinion● ▪ 〈◊〉 ; yet because Popes seldom countenance Subject● complaints and proceedings against their Princes pretended Tyranny , none fears to be deposed as Tyrants . How litle Popes have intermedled with Protestant Princes ( if not persecutors ) is visible to the whole world ; If therfore Catholik Kings apprehended no danger or prejudice from the Bishop of Rome his censures against Tyranny ( because they are so sparing of them ) notwithstanding the inclination of their Subjects to solicit and obey such Censures , I see no cause protestants Kings have to fear Cens●●●s for heresy , wherof the Sea Apostolik is no less sparing . 〈◊〉 he answered that Catholik princes ( by the principles of 〈◊〉 Religion , or at least by reason of the probability and p●●sibility of the opinions against heresy and Tyranny ) must 〈◊〉 the hazard of being thaught deposable in those cases : we 〈◊〉 protestants to consider , whether it be reasonable in them 〈◊〉 of us poore English , or Irish Subjects , a Declaration 〈◊〉 those opinions which the most powerfull Catholik 〈◊〉 of Christendom dare not contradict ( for fear either of 〈◊〉 Christianity , or of vndergoing the censures of the 〈◊〉 Consistory ) notwithstanding their temporal concern 〈◊〉 countenance a persuasion that seems to check their regal 〈◊〉 ? Never any King had , or can have , more reason to 〈◊〉 Bellarmin's opinion , or other such like , then the French 〈◊〉 since the loss of Navarr , and the Troubles of the 〈…〉 yet whensoever the Parliament of Paris , and the 〈◊〉 of Sorbon censured the same opinions , the King and 〈◊〉 of France were so far from giving them thanks , that 〈◊〉 disowned and declared voyd their Censures , condemning 〈◊〉 for intermedling in the matter , and vnder pain of his 〈◊〉 indignation , and of being held for seditious , and 〈◊〉 of the publik repose , commanded them and all 〈◊〉 , not to move or dispute any questions of that nature , 〈◊〉 the right either of Popes , or of temporal Soveraigns , 〈◊〉 be seen at large in Monsieur Bouchet , a French Author , 〈◊〉 Richerist , and therfore not to be suspected of favoring 〈◊〉 Sea of Rome . And as for the Church of France , it is so 〈◊〉 from such disputes as every one may Judg by Cardinal 〈◊〉 Oration in name of the whole Clergy to the states of th●● Kingdom . Two years ago Monsieur Talon ( the Kings Att●rney ) objected to some Doctors of Sorbon , that their Faculty held the doctrin of the deposition of Kings ; but they declared that though some particular members of the Vniversity had long since taught the doctrin , yet the Faculty never resolved the question . True it is that the Kings of France permit not their Subjects now to preach or publish any such doctrin , and Iudg that prohibition to be a sufficient security against it ; and I see no reason why protestant Kings should not think the same a sufficient security for themselves : and questionless they would , did not over-offi●ious persons misinform the Ministers of state , by imposing vpon them that the Church of France doth practise such Oaths , engagements , or Rem●●strances as the Parliament of Paris ( a secular Court ) would fain have pressed vpon the French Clergy king since , and the Jansenists lately ; but now dare not mention any such thing ▪ the Pope having lately censured their presumption of intermedling with matters aboue their jurisdiction ; and the King not giving them thanks for their officiousness . Protestants can not cleere their Religion from the doctrin , and danger of deposing Soveraigns , and disposing of their Kingdoms . NOw that we have cleered ( 〈…〉 Roman Catholik Religion from the aspersions of our 〈…〉 , and shewed how 〈◊〉 dangerous the Pope's spi●●●ual supremacy can be to the temporal Soveraignty , even of protestant Princes I would willingly vnderstand how the protestant and prelatik Clergy , can vindicat their own principles 〈…〉 from deposing of as many Monarch● and Magistrat● 〈◊〉 did not conform to their Reformations whersoever they p●●vailed ? Let them name but one protestant Kingdom , Principality , Commonwealth or Citty , wherin protestancy hath not bin promoted by rebellion , and exclusion of the lawfull Soveraign or Magistrat ? let them read the Histories of Germany , Geneva , France , England , Holland , Suethland , Suitzerland , Vallies of Sa●●y , Scotland , &c. 〈◊〉 they will find that as we do not exaggegrat , so they can 〈◊〉 excuse the crime , or except any of this number from notorious guilt therof . So vniversal a conspiracy against lawfull S●●eraigns in nations so distant and different , agreeing almost 〈◊〉 nothing but in the fundamental grounds of protestancy , 〈◊〉 particularly in their maxim of the lawfulness to rayse 〈◊〉 settle the reformation vpon the ruins of all superiority , 〈◊〉 spiritual and temporal that will not submit to the arbi●●●●● interpretation of Scripture of every Protestant prevailing 〈◊〉 ▪ must needs be a convincing proof , that nothing can 〈◊〉 allyed to rebellion then the Protestant Religion ; which 〈◊〉 content to depose only Catholik Kings for Popery , doth 〈◊〉 the same authority against their own protestant Kings 〈…〉 they conform not even their reformed Tenets to the 〈…〉 fancies of an illiterat giddy multitude . And even the Cavaleers ( the wisest and most faithfull 〈◊〉 ) have given sufficient ground for men to suspect , 〈…〉 think it no discredit to their prelatick Religion , nor 〈◊〉 to themselves , to trouble and question their Kings 〈◊〉 he and his privy Councell should think fit to vse a 〈◊〉 moderation towards Papists ; their late speeches in the 〈◊〉 of Commons against his Majesties Declaration is too cleer 〈…〉 for this censure . Let themselves now be Judges , 〈◊〉 the Roman Catholik Religion , notwithstanding its 〈◊〉 ▪ of the Popes spiritual supremacy , be not more 〈◊〉 ●o Kings , then the best Protestant Reformations , and 〈◊〉 the Papal spiritual Iurisdiction over souls be not 〈◊〉 with a temporal Soveraignty in Kings over their 〈◊〉 ▪ They will find this difference between both Religions , that the Roman Catholik admits of and submits to Soveraignty however so addicted the Soveraigns are to Protestancy , even the most precise Papists allow not of resistance against the royal authority in any case , but only in that of forcing conscience by persecution : but both Presbyterian and Prelatik Protestants think it lawfull to depose their Soveraigns if the Soveraigns SECT . X. That Protestants could never prove any of the wilfull falsifications wherwith they charge Roman Catholik writers ; but themselves are convicted of that Crime whersoever they attempted to make good their charge against vs. SOME Protestants ( either out of ignorance or malice ) confound our Index expurgatorius with wilfull falsifications of ancient Fathers , ād modern Authors ; wheras the sayd Index is a professed correcting ( not of the Fathers , but ) of modern Authors opinions , and Comments ; no concealed corrupting of their writings . It doth not change any thing in ancient Fathers works , though Protestants themselves confess 〈◊〉 of them have ambiguous and erroneous sentences , but such are either sufficiently explained , or corrected by themselves in other ●●●ces , or condemned by the ancient Church , and the gene●●● concurrence and consent of the other Fathers teaching and ●●●●ifying the contrary to be Catholick doctrin . So that we 〈◊〉 excuse our Adversaries either ignorance or impudence when they say we make the Fathers speake what is most pleasing to vs , by our Index Expurgatorius . This you may see solidly proved against Bishop Taylors Calumnies , and falsifications in his Dissuasive : and the thing is evident by the Index it self , and the rules therof . Kemnitius and other Protestants object some few texts of Scripture in the vulgar latin which they pretend were changed by vs , and corrupted : But Cardinal Bellarmin answers to all the objections so well , that nothing can be replyed , and all the world must confess we Roman Catholiks translated not any thing in that version to favor our Religion against Protestants , seing our Latin Vulgata hath his vsed in the Church 1● . hundred years before their pretended reformation was heard of Iewell , Morton , and others object that Zozimus , Bonifacius , and Celestinus , ( three Popes that lived in Saint 〈◊〉 ●ime ) and are much commended by him for holy men ) forged , a Canon of the first Councell of Nice in favor of their own supremacy ; but they are sufficiently cleered from that aspersion by all Catholick Writers ; who agree in this ; that the heretiks did corrupt and Conceal some Canons of that Councell which are now wanting . But as for that of appeales to the Pope ( which was the 〈…〉 ) it is in the Canons of the Counc●ll 〈…〉 wayes held ( especialy in the west Church ) for 〈…〉 of the 〈◊〉 Councell , because the same 〈…〉 both ; And St. Austin himself did appeale to 〈…〉 those three Popes ( whom Protestants would 〈◊〉 make 〈◊〉 ) in the cause of 〈◊〉 Bishop of 〈…〉 in his own Epistle about that matter . Bellarmin accused by Sutcliff of 〈◊〉 the general Councell of Calcedon 〈◊〉 favor of the Pope's s●●remacy ) one of the foure first , and received in England by act of a Protestant Parliament . MR. Sutcliff in his Challenge and defence of the same , chargeth Cardinal Bellarmin with many falsifications , which you may see re●orted vpon himself in Walsingham's Search of Religion ; I will relate but one which is the third in Sutcliff's order ; In the same Book and Chapter ( saith Sutcliff ) Bellarmin falsifyeth the acts of the Councell of Calcedon . And for proof of this falsification he sayes , wheras Bellarmin 〈◊〉 that the Councell acknowldedged and called Pope Leo 〈◊〉 Ecclesias , Head of the Church . Which name ( saith Bellar●●● ) the Councell of Calcedon ( about 1200. years past ) doth 〈◊〉 an epistle to Pope Leo , saying , quibus tu velut membris 〈◊〉 praeras , over whom you as head over the members do beare 〈◊〉 And in the first action of the Councell the Roman Church 〈◊〉 , the Head of all Churches ; Sutcliff letting pass this last , 〈◊〉 vpon the words , quibus tu velut membris caput praeeras , saying , that , this is referred to certain Priests of Leo his order , in which Rank he shewed himself principal &c. so as he saith that these words of the Councell do acknowledge only that Leo 〈◊〉 of certain Priests , but not of the Bishops gathered 〈◊〉 in that Councell . But this is a foolish fancy and 〈◊〉 fraud of Sutcliff , as appeareth by the very letter and 〈◊〉 of the Councell to Pope Leo , who after praysing God 〈◊〉 favor and providence in gathering together , and 〈◊〉 themselves at Calcedon , preferring the notifying of their 〈◊〉 of faith , before their Countrey , and labour som Journey ; add , over which Priests ( or Bishops assembled in this Councell ) you did preside as head over the members by those which 〈◊〉 your place , to wit , by his legats , of whom Leo sayd in his Epistle to the Councell , In these Brothers Paschasius and Lucen●●● Bishops , Boniface , and Basilius Priests , who are directed by 〈◊〉 Apostolick Sea , your fraternity may think that I preside in the 〈◊〉 ▪ And these legats , though two of them were but Priests , took place of all Bishops , and were acknowledged of so absolute authority , that they pronounced sentence against D●●scorus the Heretik thus in the Popes name : The most holy Pope Leo head of the vniversal Church , by vs his Legats , the holy Synod consenting , being indued with the dignity of Peter the Apostle , who is called the Foundation of the Church , the Rock of faith , and Doorekeeper of the heavenly Kingdom , have deprived Dioscorus of Episcopal dignity , and all priestly function . Now this Councell of Calcedon having bin received in England by act of Parliament ( 1. Eliz. ) and never yet repealed , I see not how Priests can be legaly punished , or Catholiks persecuted for acknowledging the Pope's spiritual Iurisdiction in these Kingdoms , and maintaining that he is head of the Catholik Church , St. Peter's Successor , and Christ's Vicar vpon earth ; much less how could Doctor Sutcliff charge Bellarmin with falsifying the Councell that con●esseth the same doctrin in so cleer termes . SVBSECT . I. How Protestants are convicted by Bellarmin of holding twenty ancient condemned heresies , and how Sutcliff , and Bishop Morton to cleere them of six only ( fourteen it seems they c●●fess ) do falsify the Fathers , and Catholik Authors about the worshipping of Images . CArdinal Bellarmin ( lib. 4. de notis Ecclesi● cap. 9. ) proves that Protestants are heretiks , because they hold many old heresies condemned as such by the ancient Catholik Church , wherof he sets down twenty . One is that of Xenaias a Persian , who ( saith Bellarmin cit . ) was the first that did openly affirm , the Images of Christ and his Saints ought not to be worshiped , as wittnesseth Nicephorus lib. 17. cap. 27. Doctor Sutclif sayes that Nicephorus is falsifyed : which is most fals , for that Nicephorus writing many horrible things of this Xenaias ; as that he faigned himself to be a Priest , yea and got a Bishoprik before he was baptised , amongst others saith . This Xenaias did first of all others ( O audacious soul and impudent tongue ) belch out that voice , that the Images of Christ , and those that have bin acceptable vnto him , are not to be worshiped . And this he sayd so , is a truth so vndeniable and generaly received , that even the Protestant Authors that write the Ecclesiastical history , confess it , as Functius in his seaventh book of Commentaries vpon his Chronicle an . 494. saith . Porro is Xenaias primus in Ecclesia bellum contra Imagines indixit . Two Pelagian heresies imputed to Protestants , and how they falsify to cleer themselves of the one , and say nothing of the other . WHeras the Pelagians ( saith Bellarmin , according to St. Austin and St. Hierom ) taught two heresies among others , 1. That every sin though never so litle , is mortal . 2. That there is no original sin in man , especialy in Infants of Lawfull parents ; The first , all ●rotestants teach ; the last Zuinglius , Bucer , and Calvin ; but with this difference , that Zuinglius doth absolutely deny original sin to be in any man ; Bucer and Calvin do only deny the same in the Children of the Faithfull , whom they say to be born Saints and saved without Baptism . Now Doctor Morton not being able to deny the first heresy to be common to Pelagians and protestants , would faine make Bella●●●● a falsifier in the second , setting down Bellarmin's words both in Latin and English corruptly , and contrary to his plain 〈◊〉 ( as may be seen in Bellarmin's Text ) thus , The Pelag●●●s did teach that there was no original sin in men , and especialy in the Children of the faithfull , the same doth Bucer and Calvin teach ; as though he had sayd , that Calvin had denyed with the Pelagians that there is any original sin at all in men , much less in the Children of the faithfull : and had made no distinction between Zuinglius and Calvins , and Bucers opinions . And Morton by this fraud would make his Reader believe he had cleered Protestants from both the pelagian-heresies , wheras he cleeres them not from either . Hear Bellarmin's own words , which are : Pelagiani duo inter alia docebant . 1. non esse in hominibus peccatum originale & praecipuè in filijs fidelium &c. Hoc docet Zuinglius , Bucerus , Calvinus , lib. 4. instit . c. 15. § . 20. Nisi quod Zuinglius negat simpliciter peccatum originale in quolibet homine &c. Bucerus autem & Calvinus , solum in filijt fidelium negant peccatum originale , quos dicunt Sanctos nasci ; salvari etiam sine Baptismo . Vide. Belar . de notis Ecclesia cap. 9. § . 14. Two Novatian heresies imputed to Protestants , the one they answer with silence , the other with falsifying . WHeras Cardinal Bellarmin to prove that Protestants do agree with the old Novatian 〈◊〉 , alledgeth two particular instances , the one in denying the power of the Church to remit sins by priestly absolution , or the Sacrament of Pennance ; the other in denying the vse of holy Chrism in the Sacrament of Confirmation : Bishop Morton having nothing to answer to the second , replyeth only to the first by an equivocation and falsification ; for he endeavoreth to confound the Sacrament of pennance with privat repentance , or sorrow , sighs , tears &c. for sins ; and makes beleive that Bellarmin contradicts himself when he grants that Protestants admit the later , though they reject● the Sacrament of pennance ▪ and to embroyle the Reader , and excuse the Novati●ns as if they held but one error , cuts short Belarmin's words , praecipuus error , and post Baptismum ; Novatianorum praecipuus error erat &c. The Manichean heresy against Free will imputed to Protestants , and how pittifully answered by Bishop Morton . ST . Hierom , and St. Austin ; ( saith Belarmin ) accuse the Manicheans for condemning the nature of man , and depriving it of free will , and ascribing the original and beginning of sin vnto the nature of man , and not to free will. The same is taught openly by all Sectaries . Thus Belarmin . Morton sets down St. Hierom. and St. Austin's words as if they were Belarmin's , being loath to have such great Fathers tax himself and his prelatiks with heresy . Then he sayes Belarmin accuseth Calvin of this heresy , wheras Belarmin accuseth all Protestants or sectaries , not only Calvin ; and accuseth Calvin in particular of an other Manichean heresy , to wit , of reprehending and condemning Abraham and other Saints of the old Testament , to which Morton answereth nothing . Lastly he thinks to excuse Calvin and free him from the Manichees heresy , by saying that Belarmin himself confesseth he granted free will to man in his first Creation , though he lost it by sin : as if it were not also the Manichees heresy to deny free will to man after the fall of Adam . How Bp. Morton answers to Belarmin's imputation of Arianism vnto Protestants . BElarmin quotes St. Epiphanius and St. Austin charging the Arians not only with the heresy of denying the son to be equal with the Father ; but also with denying vnwritten Traditions to be the word of God ; and sayes that all the sectaries or Protestants of our times teach the second error , though not the first , at least so cleerly . The honest Bishop Morton acknowledgeth the second , because he sayes nothing to the charge ; and cavills about the first ; quoting an other Book and Chapter of Belarmin , wherin he chargeth Bullinger . But as for rejecting vnwritten Traditions Morton seems to be well pleased with the charge and rest contented therin , not only with the sense of the Arians , but of Nestorius , Dioscorus , and Eutiches , whom Belarmin couples with Protestants both for contemning doctrin delivered by Tradition , and for their sacrileges against the Sacraments , Altars , Priests , Monks , Votaries &c. saying that Protestants do commit the very same villanies against these sacred things and persons , that D●natists and all those other heretiks had exercised . To all which Morton answereth with silence . How Morton falsifyeth and abuseth Belarmin , who imputes the denyal of Christ's real Presence in the Sacrament to Protestants . IMmediatly after the Apostles , St. Ignatius the Martyr sayes that the Simonian and Menandrian heretiks did not admit Eucharistias & oblaciones , for that they did not confess the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Iesus Christ , which sentence ( saith Belarmin ) is quoted by Theodoret in 3. Dialog . out of St. Ignatius his Epistle to the Christians of Smirna , where notwithstanding it is not now found . Belarmin is of opinion that these ancient heretiks denyed the real presence rather as a consequence drawen from their denyal of the Incarnation , then as doubting of the signification or efficacy of Christ's words ; and that they differed in this from Protestants , that these deny Christ's flesh to be in the Sacrament though they acknowledge he had true flesh , but the ancient heretiks deny Christ's flesh to be in the Sacrament because he had no flesh . And here Morton pretends that Belarmin contradicts himself , and withall abuseth Calvin ; who , as Morton sayth , doth grant the real presence , nay that Belarmin confesseth he grants the same . But Morton corrupteth and abuseth Belarmin both in the allegation and Translation . In steed of Belarmin's words by vs here cited , he puts in only these as Belarmin's , which sentence is 〈◊〉 by Theodoret in 3. Dialog . but is not now to be found in Theodo●●● . Making the Reader believe by falsifying Belarmin , That the Testimony of Theodoret was not to be found in Theodoret ; and ●herfore he left out the mention of St. Ignatius his Epistle 〈…〉 ; wheras the Testimony is in Theodoret now 〈◊〉 both in Greek and Latin , though it be not in St. Igna●●●● his Epistle . As for Belarmins contradicting himself in saying that Calvin doth admit , and deny the real presence , it is no contradiction of Belarmins , but a true assertion of Calvin's Contradiction● ▪ For both Belarmin and Valentia convince him of most evid●●● and palpable contradictions in this matter , he seeking to say something different not only from Luther , but also from 〈◊〉 , and Zuinglius , therby to make a sect of his own , but yet not finding wherin to subsist or be permanent , speaks non-se●●● ▪ and Contradictions : for proof wherof Belarmin doth set down seven several propositions of his about this matter , each one of them different from the other , and some of them so contradictory , as by no possible means they may be reconciled , or stand together . As first , That the flesh of Christ is only 〈◊〉 heaven , and that in so certain and determinat a place , as it 〈◊〉 as distant from the bread , as the highest heaven is from the earth : and then , this notwithstanding , he saith , that in the supper the true body of Christ is exhibited vnto the faithfull , and not only a sign . Yea that the very substance of Christs Body is given . 〈◊〉 to that again he saith that notwithstanding the distance betw●●● the Body of Christ , and the Sacramental signes , yet are they joy●●d together by so miraculous and inexplicable means , as neither tongue nor pen can explicat the same ; and then further , That we must not beleive that this conjunction is by any real coming down of Christs Body vnto us , but by a certain Substantial force derived from his flesh by his Spirit . Where he seemeth to say that the conjunction is made , not in the substance , but in some essential quality . And so in the fifth place more cleerly he saith , that it is made by apprehension of faith only , wherby he contradicteth all that he sayd before of real and substantial conjunction . And in the sixth place he confirmeth more the same by saying ; that wicked m●n receive not the Body at all , quia Corpus Christi solo ore fidei accipitur , for that the Body of Christ is only received by the mouth of faith . And in the seventh and last place he concludeth , that this Sacrament doth not give the Body of Christ , or faith vnto any that hath it not already , but only 〈◊〉 testifie and confirm that now it is there , and is but a sign or seale ( to vse his words ) of that which is there already . And this being the variety ād vanity of Calvin in this matter , it proveth not contradiction in Belarmin , but in Calvin himself ▪ whose inconstancy and contradictions all they who ●●plain the belief of the Church of England imitat in this 〈◊〉 , as every one may see in primat Vsher , Bishop 〈◊〉 ( in his Treatise of Transubstantiation ) and others . And now to conclude this matter , we may ask Protestants , as the Emperor Theodosius did 〈◊〉 Reformers and Innovators of his time , whether they believed the ancient Fathers held the true doctrin of Christ and his Apostles , and they answering affirmatively , he replyed , Examinemus ergo doctrinam vestram ad illorum scripta , Let us examin your doctrin by their writings ; Let us Judge that to be heresy , which they placed in the Catalogue of heresies ; and if so , Protestants must not blame us when we call them hereticks , for maintaining Justification by only faith , with the Simonians , and E●nomians ; God to be the Author of sin , with the Florinians ; that women may be , and are Priests , and Popes , with the P●putians ; that concupiscence is a sin , with Proclus 1 that the true Church was invisible , with the Donatists ; that men must not fast the Lent , pray nor offer sacrifice for the Dead , with the Aerians ; That Saints ought not to be prayed vnto , themselves nor their Reliques honoured , nor their Images worshipped , with Vigilantius &c. These and other ●rotestant doctrins are recorded as heresies by St. Irenaeus , St. Epiphanius , St. Hierom , St. Austin , and other Fathers , as you may see in Belarmin ; and the prelatick writers confess their Testimony , but contemn their authority . F●lsifications objected against Cardinal Baronius by Mr. Sutcliff . THat sincere Protestants may see how litle their Clergy can say against Catholick Authors writings in this point of willfully falsifying Fathers or others , J will set down 〈◊〉 some of the principal falsifications objected against 〈◊〉 , whose work of the Ecclesiastical History depending al●●●●ther vpon the true quotations of the holy Fathers , and 〈◊〉 Authors , might be the subject of Protestant cavills , had 〈◊〉 bin very sincere ; yet notwithstanding all his ingenuity 〈◊〉 termes him a Cardinal forger , and lyar , and one of all 〈◊〉 that ever he read that most impudently abuseth and 〈◊〉 scriptures contrary to the intention of the holy Ghost &c. 〈◊〉 his preface , and then setteth down 52. falsifications and 〈◊〉 of his . The first wilfull falsification wherwith Sutcliff chargeth 〈◊〉 is , that in the first page of his first Tome he placeth the Image of the Roman Church in form of a woman with a heavy wodden Cross on her shoulders & c· This is a notable lye ( saith Mr. Sutcliff ) for that the Roman Church that now is possessed of the triple Crown , was never subject to the Cross of Christ Jesus , for that the Pope claimeth a power above all Emperors , liveth in delights &c. His second charge of wilfull falsification is , that wheras the sayd picture had two great keyes of the Popes cellar ( as Mr. Sutcliff saith ) hanging down vnder it , he lyeth impudently , saith Sutcliff , where he signifieth that Christ gave the Keyes to the Pope and his adherents &c. His third charge is , that wheras the sayd picture had written vnder it on the one side vicit . haereses , and on the other side subegit Gentes , Mr. Sutcliff objecteth this for a wilfull falsification , saying that this later Roman Church hath not subdued heresies , but is overgrown it self with heresies . The fourth charge of wilfull falsification is , that Mr. Sutcliff supposing Baronius and the Pope do mean to worship that wodden Cross layd vpon the pictures shoulders , he saith , that if Baronius mean the true Church , he lyeth , for that the true Church did never worship any woodden Cross. The fifth charge is about these words subegit Gentes vnder the picture , this is a lye ( saith Mr. Sutcliff ) for that Saracens , Turks , and Gentils , have prevailed against the Pope and his followers &c. regaining the Holy Land. The sixth charge is that the holy Ghost hovereth over the triple Crown , the B. Virgin sitteth with her Son in her lap ; St. Peter and St. Paul support the worship of our B. Lady ; which are all ( saith Sutcliff ) notorious lyes , for that Christ is no longer an Infant &c. And are not these substantial charges of wilfull falsifications to be placed in the first rank ? Had he found matter to discredit Baronius he would never detain , nor divert his Reader with the picture , but would have entred presently into the History . But now in his seaventh charge , he will not trifle . Sixtus the Fifth ( saith Sutcliff ) in his decretal epistle prefixed before Baronius his books , saith , that he faithfully and diligently reported the story of the Church &c. Now you must know that this Epistle made decretal by Sutcliff , is only a licence and privilege for Baronius to print the Book . Wheras our beloued Son Antony Cardinal Garaffa ( saith the Pope ) Prefect of the Apostolick Library , hath related vnto vs , that the first volume of our Ecclesiastical History is now ready to be set forth , and that it is a work no less learnedly then faithfully written &c. we do give you leave to print the same &c. With his eight charge of wilfull falsification , he is resolved to destroy the whole work of Baronius . The year ( saith Sutcliff ) and precise time of Christ's Nativity being the ground of all his work , it must needs follow that if he faile in that , then his whole Book is nothing but a pack of lyes : but that he hath erred in that point , is very probable ; for that Epiphanius saith our Saviour was born when Augustus and Silva●●● were Consuls : but Severus writeth that he was born when Sabinius and Ruffinus were Consuls ; but Baronius followeth neither of these two , but Cassiodorus . Is not this a wise charge of falsifying ? And yet Sutcliff is mistaken in his charge though it be nothing material to the History of the Begining and progress of Christian Religion , Conversion of Nations , Councells ; condemnation of heresies &c. Epiphanius is of Baronius his opinion as well as Cassiodorus , Chrysostom , Orosius , Beda , and most of the ancient writers . All his other Charges are very foolish , not considering whether Baronius relate things of himself , or from others , and when Sutcliff denyes the authority , he doth not confute it with better authority , or reason , but by Scoffing and contempt , and yet he accuseth Baronius of lyes and forgery , because he relates what other men of credit , and great authority say in matters of History or doctrin . As for example he accuseth Baronius of wilfull lying for that out of Euthymius he relateth that Dives ( Luke 16. ) was called Ninensis who also held it was a story , and not a parable . Then his 50. charge is , Baronius would make his Reader believe that our Saviour did celebrate his passeover in S. John Evangelist's house , but Symon Metaphrastes denyeth it , which is alledged by Baronius as a grave witness . His last two charges are . 1. Baronius says Missa is derived from the Hebrew or Chaldee word : but Belarmin his fellow telleth him he is deceived . 2. Baronius doth report ▪ out of Gregory of Tours this ●able , that divers making thongs did put them about the pillar wherto Christ was tyed when he was scourged , and the same did heal divers diseases . And with this sound charge he ends his 52. of wilfull falsifications against Baronius . What I desire the Protestant Reader should observe in the charges of wilfull falsifications and lyes which they print against our Catholick Authors is , the difference between our charges against them , and of theirs against us . We charge Protestants with heresies , and with corrupting Scripture , Fathers , and Councells , to prove heresies , and we demonstrat the same so home , that either they omit to answer the corruptions and falsifications objected , or answer them with adding new falsifications to the old , as hath bin manifest hitherto ; but the Protestant writers objections against us are either frivolous , impertinent , or forged by themselves . And when they can find no matter to carp at in such works as those of Baronius and Belarmin , wherin there is such a multitude and variety of quotations , and relations , it may be well imagined how litle they will find in modern Catholick writers , who for the most part borrow from those two Cardinals what they say in Controversies of Religion . Had Luther , Calvin , Beza , Kemnitius , Melancton , and Jewell , bin as sincere in their writings against Catholicks , as Canisius , Coccius , Bellarmin , Gualterus , Peron , and Baronius are against Protestants , we could not have discovered so many palpable falsifications in the later Protestant writers as our Books manifest to the world ; wherof I have sayd more , J fear , then my Readers will have patience to peruse . Yet I shall entreat them for the Conclusion of this matter to permit me to mention somewhat of Luther's , and Calvin's sincerity , the two chief Apostles of the Protestant Reformation ; and of two others , the most eminent Prelats and writers of the Church of England , Usher and Laud , one called the Irish Saint , the other the English Martyr . When such Primats are proved Falsifiers , we need not examin further the writings of the Inferior Clergy , and petty Ministers , but remit the ●ealous defenders of their sincerity to such Books as discover their frauds , and are easily found , wherof we have given heretofore a Catalogue . SECT . XI . Calumnies and Falsifications of Luther , Calvin , Archbishop Laud , and Primat Vsher to discredit Catholick Religion , against their own knowledge and conscience . LUther ( in postilla ad Evang. Dominicoe Annuntiationis ) saith , Among the Papists every one maketh recourse vnto Mary , expecting from her more favour and grace then from Christ himself . Calvin saith , every Papist hath chosen peculiar Saints to whom he hath devoted himself as to so many helping Gods , 〈◊〉 are their Gods now according to the number of their Cittyes , as the Prophet vpbraided the Jsraelits , but according to the number of their very persons . This our Popish Babylon ( saith Luther ) hath so far extinguished faith in this Sacrament ( of Pennance ) as with a shamless forehead she denyeth faith to be necessary ; nay further she hath with an Anti-christian impiety defended that it is an heresy , if any man affirme faith to be necessary : His Scholler Philip Melancton saith the same , The School-Doctors have foolishly and wickedly taught that sins are forgiven without faith . Without doubt the illiterat Protestants ( who all take Luther to be a Saint at least do not believe him to be an Jmpostor ) question not but that Roman Catholicks are such men as Luther , Calvin &c. describe them ; and will not so much as turn to the Councell of Trent , or to any other Book where our Tenets are to be found ; there they might see that we hold faith to be the beginning and foundation of man's saluation , and the root of all Justification , without which it is impossible to please God &c. And in him that doth repent , it is of necessity that faith go before pennance . Concerning the necessity of Grace , Luther , saith , The Papists do teach that a man may keep the Commandements of God with the proper forces of nature , without God's grace . Concerning the immortality of the soul he saith , The Papists at this day do not believe at all the Immortality of the soul. And again in the Lateran Councell that was celebrated in the year 1515. in time of Pope Julius , it was first of all known and decreed , that the resurrection of the Dead was to be believed . Of this wicked Friars corruptions of Scripture see Zuinglius tom . 2. ad Luth. de s●c . fol. 412. and many more Authors . As for Fathers and Councells he did not value them so much as to trouble himself with falsifying , or corrupting their writings , though sometimes ( to impose vpon illiterat people that the holy Fathers were hereticks , or ignorant ) he endeavors in his writings , to discredit their persons , and condemn their doctrin . See what he sayes of them hertofore part . 1. & 2. SVBSECT . II. Of Calvin's calumnies against Catholicks and their Doctrin . MR. Walsingham in his search ( pag. 152. ) acknowledgeth he had such an opinion of Calvin's Sanctity and sincerity , that having read in his Institutions cap. 11. lib. 1. That in the first 500. years after Christ there were never any Images in Christian Churches , both himself and other Ministers did often alledge the same as a certain truth to such as knew less then themselves ; but perceiving that the Papists laughed at them for it , he began to doubt , and after examination of twenty Authors or witnesses within the first 500. years which Coccius citeth against Calvin , he found them truly cited , and Calvin a Lyar. How litle Calvin valued the practise or doctrin of the ancient Church , he declareth lib. 3. Instit. c. 5. § . 10. where he saith : when the adversaries object against me that prayer for the Dead hath bin vsed above 1300. years , I ask them again by what word of God , revelation , or example it 〈◊〉 bin so vsed ? &c. But the very old Fathers themselves that prayed for the dead , did see that herein they wanted both Commandment of God , and lawfull example . So as 〈◊〉 accuseth all the holy Fathers ( because they were Papists ) of superstition . In all the Hymns and Litanies of the Papists ( saith Cal●●● ) there is never any mention of Christ : but wheras always they pray to dead Saints , the name of Christ never occurreth . And yet this Impostor could not be ignorant that our Litanies begin Kyrie eleison , Christe eleison , Lord have mercy ●pon us , Christ have mercy vpon us , Christe audi nos , Christe exaudi 〈◊〉 &c. And our hymns he knew were made by St. Ambrose , St. Gregory , Prudentius , Sedulius , and other ancient Fathers , and conclude , Gloria tibi Domine qui natus es de Virgine &c. In the very same Book and Chapter Calvin affirmeth that is the third Councell of Carthage , wherin St. Austin was present , it was forbiden that we should say Sancte Petre ora pro nobis , which is fals : it was indeed decreed , Quod cum Altari assistitur , semper ad patrem dirigatur Oratio , That when the Priest did assist at the Altar , he should offer his prayer and sacrifice to God the Father . The Papists do shamefully and impiously define ( saith Calvin ) that dayly pennance must only be don for venial sin . As though we taught that for mortal sin pennance was not necessary . Jn the same place he saith the Papists speak not at all ( when they treat of pennance ) of the internal renovation of mind , which bringeth true amendment of life : and again ibid. 29. they hold that they are reconciled once only by the grace of God when they are Baptised , post Baptismum resurgendum esse per satisfactiones , but after baptism a man must rise again ( from sin ) by satisfactions . Wheras this impudent fellow knew well enough that we hold all rising from sin , or reconciliation vnto God , whether before or after baptism , must be by Grace ; and that satisfactions only are for temporal punishments , after the guilt of sin is remitted by Reconciliation . In his institutions ( l. 4. c. 7. ) he saith that Pope Iohn 2● . affirmed mens souls to be mortal , and to perish together with the Body vntill the day of resurrection , which calumny we have confuted hertofore . In the same Institutions ( l. 4. c. 13. § . 12. ) talking of Monastical life and Evangelical Councells , he writeth in this resolute manner , Nulli vnquam veterum hoc in mentem 〈◊〉 &c. It never came into the cogitations of any of the ancient Fathers to affirm● , that Christ did councell any thing , but rather they do all cry with one voyce , that there was never any one least word vttered by Christ ▪ that is not of necessity to be obeyed &c. out of which words he inferreth that there is no state of perfection to be aspired vnto more one then other , nor any thing left us by way of Councell , but that all is commanded by way of precept . And yet St. Paul saith ( and by consequence with him all the ancient Church and Fathers ) talking of virginity , I have no precept of our Lord , but I give Councell &c. In the sayd institutions lib. 4. cap. 19. § . 11. Calvin saith of the Papists , praeterita aqua , & nullo numero habita , vnum oleum in Baptismo magni faciunt . They letting pass and esteeming nothing at all the water of Baptism , do only magnify their oyle of Chrism . And yet he knew well that the Roman Catholicks hold the vse of water to be most absolutely necessary to the Substance of Baptism , and not the holy oyle . I hope Protestants will reflect vpon these things , and consider whether it be probable or possible that God would send such men as these two Impostors , to reform his Church ; men without conscience , 〈◊〉 , sincerity , or christianity . SVBSECT . III. Frauds , falsifications , and calumnies of Primat Vsher against the real presence and Transubstantiation . THe Popes name ( saith M● Vsher ) in whose dayes this gross opinion of the oral eating and drinking of Christ in the Sacrament drew it's first breath , was Gregory the 〈◊〉 . In a man of less erudition and learning then Mr. Vsher , 〈◊〉 assertion might be called a simple mistake , but in him , it 〈◊〉 be a notorious fraud , and wilfull falsification of as many 〈◊〉 Fathers , as he had perused , and ( to his knowledge ) delivered the doctrin of the real presence , and Transubstantiation . In particular he doth corrupt Justin the Martyr his words to Antoninus the Emperor , as Cranmer had don formerly , wherof 〈◊〉 have treated part . 3. and remit the Reader thereunto , as also to Malones reply against Vsher's answer pag. 236. St. Cyprian 〈◊〉 before Gregory 2. many hundred years , and yet Mr. Vsher 〈◊〉 not be ignorant how he declared the belief of the Catholick Church in these words , This bread which our Lord gave 〈◊〉 his Disciples , being by the almighty power of the word changed , 〈◊〉 in outward shape , but in nature , is made flesh . St. Austin also was a long time before Gregory 2. and he cleers all doubts both of the Mass and Transubstantiation , thus ; This is that which we say &c. to wit , that the Sacrifice of the Church doth consist of two things , that is to say , the visible form or species of the elements , and the invisible flesh and bloud of our Lord JESVS Christ , the Sacrament and the thing of the Sacrament . Knowing and believing ( saith St. Cyril Hierosol . ) most assuredly , that what appeareth bread is not bread , though it seem so to the tast , but it is the body of Christ ; and what appeareth 〈…〉 the tast doth Judge it to be , but the bloud of Christ. Mr. Vsher's Falsifications against Confession . ST . Basil ( saith Mr. Vsher ) maketh the groans of the heart to be a sufficient Confession ; so doth St. Ambrose the tears of the penitent . Tears , saith he , doth wash the sin which the voyce is ashamed to confess . Weeping doth provide both for pard●● and for shamefactness . And St. Austin , what have J to 〈◊〉 with men that they should hear my confessions , as though they should heale all my diseases . Mr. Vsher not content to impose this sentence vpon the mistaken Protestants as if it had declared the superfluity and novelty of Sacramental Confession , wheras St. Basil speaketh of David , and St. Ambrose of St. Peter , ( who by tears obtained pardon for his denying Christ ) before the 〈◊〉 of Confession ; not content I say to misinterpret their meaning , he corrupts the words by a fals translation , to make good his own fals Interpretation , adding the word our twice to the 〈◊〉 , for our shamefactness , and for 〈…〉 , endeavoring therby to draw the meaning of the Fathers from David and St. Peter vnto all others , even after the Institution and precept of Sacramental Confession . And as for St. Austin he speaketh of that publick Confession which in his Book he made of such sins as had bin forgiven him in Baptism , and therfore needed not to be confessed to a Priest. It is a strange thing how learned Protestants well versed in the Fathers date impose such wrested Texts vpon men who are resolved to examin them , and to let the world see what the Fathers have cleerly delivered , Mr. Vsher could not be so ignorant as now his partners would have him seem to be , 〈…〉 positive doctrin of these three Fathers concerning Con●●ssion . St. Basil declares his own belief and of the whole Church , 〈…〉 words . Sins must necessarily be opened vnto them , vnto whom 〈…〉 of God's Mysteries is committed . St. Ambrose ; If 〈…〉 to the justified , confess thy sin , For a shamefast confession 〈…〉 , dissolueth the knot of iniquity St. Austin exhorting to confession saith , Is it therfore sayd without cause , whatsoever you shall loose on earth , shall be loosed in heaven ? are the Keyes therof without cause given to the Church of God ? &c. who so doth repent , let him repent throughly : let him shew his greif by tears ; let him present his life to God by the Priest , let him prevent God's Iudgment by Confession . &c. And therfore he that will confess his sins for the obtaining of Grace let him seek out a Priest who hath skill to bind and loose &c. let him consider the quality of the crime , in place , in time , in continuance , in variety of persons , and with what temptation he fell into sin , and how often &c. All this variety must be confessed . And is it not very strange that Mr. Vsher should quote these holy Doctors against themselves , and his own conscience ? But the Protestant Religion cannot 〈◊〉 otherwise maintained , nor the prelatick Clergy enjoy two millions sterling of yearly revenue . All the other Fathers speak after the same manner : as for example , St. Gregory of Nyssa , 〈◊〉 the Priest for a partner and Companion of thine affliction , as 〈◊〉 Father ; shew vnto him boldly the things that are hidden ; 〈◊〉 the secrets of thy soul , as shewing thy secret wounds vnto thy physitian . He will have a care both of thy credit , and of thy 〈◊〉 . Against Absolution of sins . MR. Vsher pag. 138. of his answer to the Jesuits Challenge is not ashamed to accuse the Roman Catholick Church with this notorious calumny , holding ( if you believe him ) that the sinner is immediatly acquitted before God ( by the Priest's absolution ) how soever that sound conversion of heart be wanting in him , 〈◊〉 otherwise would be requisit . And grounds vpon this imposture his bringing many ancient Fathers to prove against Papists , that it is not in the power of the Priest to absolve a sinner who hath not true faith , and repentance in his soul ; as if this were not the express doctrin of all Roman Catholicks . And vpon this same imposture he groundeth also his foolish expression , that our High Priest fitteth in the Temple of God , as God , and all his Creatures as so many Demy-gods vnder him . If what he layeth to our charge were true , he might have raised us a degree higher , for that God himself doth not absolve men from their sins , if they do not repent ; or if sound conversion of heart be wanting . Pag. 125. & seq . he would fain persuade that loosing of men by the Iudgment of the Priest , is by the Fathers generaly accounted nothing els but a restoring of men to the peace of the Church , and an admitting of them to the Lord's table again . And that in the dayes not only of St. Cyprian , but of Alcuinus , Deacons in the Priest's absence were allowed to reconcile penitents . But this fraud is discovered , ( I can not presume him ignorant ) for that neither St. Cyprian , nor Alcuinus do speak of reconciling penitents in the Sacrament of pennance , but only of releasing them from Censures , and temporal penitences , or punishments , wherwith they had bin bound by the positive and publick Decree of the Church , which might be performed not only by a Deacon , but by a letter to the penitent , though never so far of and absent ; And therfore can not be an absolution from sins , which requireth the penitent's presence , and appertaineth to the office of Priesthood inseparably , Jus enim hoc solis sacerdotibus permissum est , saith St. Ambrose . Against Purgatory . MR. Vsher having seen how plainly the doctrin of Purgatory , ( that is a third place for purging of venial sins , 〈◊〉 satisfying for mortal sins wherof the guilt but not the whole 〈◊〉 punishment is pardoned ) is delivered by the primi●●ve Church and Fathers , and that the examples and histories 〈◊〉 so great and holy a Doctor as St. Gregory to that purpose , 〈…〉 be well denyed , doth fraudulently change the state of 〈◊〉 ●uestion , to make his Readers believe , that the dispute 〈◊〉 the Popish Purgatory , is not whether sins and souls 〈◊〉 be temporaly punished in the other life , but whether 〈◊〉 are punished by material fier , or whether the place of 〈◊〉 punishment be a part of Hell ? Wheras all the world 〈◊〉 we leave these things to be disputed in schooles , and 〈◊〉 not determined by the Church . Whereas pag. 176. of his Answer , Mr. Vsher saith , neither 〈◊〉 it to be passed over , that in those apparitions and revela●●ons related by Gregory , there is no mention made of any 〈◊〉 Lodge in Hell appointed for Purgatory of the 〈◊〉 ( which is that which the Church of Rome now striveth 〈◊〉 ) &c. And by this imposture of his , that in the time of Otto 〈◊〉 Frisingensis and other modern Authors ( who dispute whether 〈◊〉 ●●rgatory was a place or part of hell ) would fain make Pro●●stants believe that the Roman Catholick doctrin of Purgatory 〈◊〉 not ancient : wheras he could not be ignorant that St. Berna●● ( who lived before Otto Frisingensis ) rehearsing and refu●●ng the heresies of the petrobusians , saith ; They do not believe that there remaineth any Purgatory fier after death , but will have the soul as soon as it is out of the body , to pass either to rest , or els to damnation , but let them inquire of him who sayd , that there is a kind of sin which shall not be forgiven in this world nor the world to come , to what end did he say this if there be no remission nor cleansing of sin in the other world ? But others much ancienter spoke cleerly of Purgatory . St. Gregory of Nyssa ; The Divine providence hath ordained that man after sin should return to his ancient felicity , either purified in this life by prayer &c. or after his death cleansed in the furnace of Purgatory fire . St. Basil. in cap. 9. Esay . St. Cyril Alexandr . in Ioan. 15. v. 2. St. Gregory Nazian . St. Ambrose , St. Austin , St. Hierom , Origines , Tertullian , St. Hilary , and most of the Fathers , whose sayings Mr. Vsher did see in Belarmin , and yet without mentioning any particular , tells vs , that the Testimonies which the Cardinal bringeth , belong to the point of praying for the dead only ( as if praying for the ease and relief of the dead did not necessarily conclude Purgatory ) or vnto the fire of affliction in this world , or vnto that of the last day , or to the fire of Hell , or ( mark the 〈◊〉 absolute and rational answ●● ) to some other fier , then that which 〈…〉 . Mr. Vsher concludes his controversy of 〈◊〉 with these words , and so vnto this day the Romish Purgatory is rejected as well by the Gracious , as by the 〈◊〉 , and Russians , the Cophites , and Abassins , the 〈◊〉 and Armenians , together with the Syrians and 〈…〉 subject to the Patriarchs of Antioch , and 〈…〉 and Palestian● vnto the East Indies . This is strange 〈◊〉 in maintaining a falshood contradicted both by the Protestant relations of the Eastern Religions , and by the Declaration● of the Patriarchs and other learned Writers of the 〈◊〉 Provinces . Against VVorshipping of Saints and their Reliques . THe Iesuits ( saith Mr. Vsher pag. 420. ) were wont indeed 〈…〉 men commonly with an idle 〈…〉 , and l●●ria , but now they confess it to be the 〈◊〉 of the most and wisest , that it is one and the self same vertue that containeth both latria , and Dulia . Heere Mr. Vsher is convicted of two notorious frauds ; 1. To make his illiterat Reader believe that no act appertaining to the vertue of Religion , can any way relate vnto Creatures , though it have the Creator for it's prime motive , he seems to suppose that the Iesuits now recant , and grant that the honor which Catholicks give to Saints , as they are God's 〈◊〉 , can not be an act of Religion , wheras there is no 〈◊〉 difficulty nor dispute in that a man should honor God 〈◊〉 his Saints , by two distinct acts of the same vertue of 〈◊〉 , then in that the love of God , and of our neighbour , 〈…〉 two acts of one vertue , called Charity . The second 〈…〉 he would fain persuade , that latria , and Dulia is a 〈◊〉 distinction , and delusion of the Jesuits ; and that no 〈◊〉 worship , however so inferior , can be communicated 〈…〉 , without committing of Idolatry . But the Church 〈◊〉 England by the pen of it's defender Bishop Jewell , tells 〈…〉 , we only adore Christ as very God● , but we 〈…〉 the Sacrament , we worship the word of 〈…〉 all other like things in such religious wise to Christ 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 Church and Fathers ( not only the Jesuits ) 〈…〉 distinction of Latria and Dalia , that is , suprem , and 〈◊〉 religious worship : the suprem ▪ that is , Latria , is due 〈…〉 , as the suprem civil worship to the King● : the 〈◊〉 ▪ which is Dulia , is due to Saints , Bishops , Priests &c. 〈…〉 of that religious and supernatural excellency , or 〈◊〉 , which God hath given them . And to Saints we pray 〈◊〉 God's servants , not as to Gods , as Mr. Vsher would 〈◊〉 Pro●estant● . We are calumniated by him as St. Hierom , St. Austin , and all Catholicks were by Vigilantius , and Faustus Manichean Heretick . St. Austin his words are . The here●●ck Faustus doth calumniat us , because we honor the 〈◊〉 or reliques of Martyrs , affirming that we have them for our Idols . The Christian people doth celebrat with religious 〈◊〉 the memories of Martyrs , therby to stir vp them●●●ves to their imitation , and that they may be assisted with their prayers , and made partakers of their merits . But with the worship termed in Greek latria , and which the latin language can not express in one word , ( it being a certain subjection and servitude due properly to the Deity only , ) we do not honor any but God alone &c. Coilyridians , who holding our Lady for a Deity , adored her 〈◊〉 latria , and offered sacrifice vnto her . And yet he doth 〈◊〉 how St. Epiphanius in that very disputation inveighed 〈◊〉 against such as did not honor our Lady with due 〈…〉 , but let our Lord be adored , saith he ; 〈…〉 none adore her as God : for though she be 〈…〉 , and most worthy of honor , yet not worthy to be 〈…〉 wit with latria , And the same Saint condemneth as 〈◊〉 those who do not give due honor to the mother of God , 〈◊〉 who give her that of latria . For as these ( saith he ) 〈…〉 Imaginations of Mary do sow pernicious 〈…〉 in mens minds , so these others inclining too much to the 〈…〉 to be in the wrong . So that we see 〈…〉 of Latria and Dulia is no Idle invention of the 〈…〉 necessary doctrin of the ancient Fathers . Against prayer to Saints . MR. Vhser in his answer to the Iesuits chalenge , treating of this controversy , proceeded with the same fraud he vsed in that of Purgatory . Finding that the ancient 〈◊〉 prayed to Saints , and that God wrought many mira●●● at their shrines , and Reliques , he endeavors to change the 〈◊〉 of the question , and place the whole controversy in points 〈◊〉 ; making his Reader believe , that we Roman 〈◊〉 now a dayes do not believe as the ancient Church , but 〈◊〉 that the souls of Martyrs are present at their shrines , 〈◊〉 when miracles are wrought ; and other things 〈◊〉 the manner of their intercession , and knowledge of our 〈◊〉 , and prayers ; so that saith Mr. Usher ( pag. 405. ) to 〈◊〉 good the Popish manner of praying vnto Saints , that 〈◊〉 at the first was but probable and problematical ( to wit 〈◊〉 sayings of the Master of the sentences , Scotus , Biel , and other schoole Divines ) must now be held to be de fide . This calumny and fraud is cleerly confuted by the words Concede nobis Domine quaesumus , veniam delictorum , & 〈…〉 sanctis quorum hodie solemnia celebramus , talem nobis 〈◊〉 denotionem , vt ad eorum pervenire mer●amur societatem . 〈…〉 ●orum merita , quos propria impediunt scelera ; excuset 〈◊〉 accusat quos actio ▪ & qui ijs tribuisti coelestis palmam 〈…〉 nobis veniam non deneges peccati : Grant us O Lord we 〈…〉 , remission of our sins , and by the intercession of the Saints 〈◊〉 solemnity we celebrat , bestow vpon us such devotion that we 〈◊〉 serve to attain vnto their fellowship . And immediatly fol●oweth ; let their merits help us that are hindred by our own sins . 〈◊〉 their intercession excuse us , who are accused by our own 〈◊〉 : and thou o Lord who hast bestowed vpon them the palme 〈◊〉 heauenly triumph , deny not vnto us the pardon of our sins . 〈…〉 ( pag. 408. ) quite omitting the first part of 〈…〉 , translateth the later part as if it were rather an 〈◊〉 then a supplication , thus , can their merits help us , 〈◊〉 own sins hinder ? can their intercession excuse us , whose 〈◊〉 doth accuse themselves ? But thou who hast bestowed vpon 〈◊〉 palme of thy heavenly triumph , deny not vnto us the 〈…〉 sins . You see how he adds interrogations , and makes 〈◊〉 on his own head , and not only translates the latin 〈…〉 fraudulently , but changeth the whole sense , and 〈◊〉 into the Text At insteed of & , and tu , which is not 〈◊〉 latin ; and makes the whole order , , of the 〈◊〉 as also that of the Benedictin Monks , hereticks , as 〈◊〉 of that which no Roman Catholick ever called in 〈◊〉 . What credit , think you doth such a man as this deserve 〈◊〉 collections of antiquities , when they agree not with his 〈◊〉 Protestant Religion ? he who venters to contradict a 〈◊〉 so generaly known , and to corrupt a writing so common 〈◊〉 in so many Libraries and Books , what will he not 〈◊〉 or hath not don , in Papers and Copies which he fancies 〈◊〉 must take vpon his sole word and Testimony ? Whosoever desires to have a full view of Primat Vsher's vnsincere dealing in maintaining protestancy ( which we attribute more to the of the Roman Church ( whose words he quotes ) were of 〈◊〉 that ( as the Greeks expressed themselves ) it was a 〈◊〉 not simply fundamental . 〈◊〉 for his Lordship's backwardness in denying the Greeks 〈…〉 Church ( that is , of accusing them of heresy ) 〈◊〉 forsooth , they seem to maintain the equality and 〈◊〉 of the persons ; so great a prelat and writer ought 〈◊〉 known that a Church may be a fals and heretical 〈◊〉 for denying the generation and procession , as well as 〈◊〉 the equality and consubstantiality of the persons : 〈◊〉 indeed can the one be denyed without denying the other . 〈◊〉 task is , to examin the Bishop's sincerity , not his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 first fraud is , to pretend that Catholick Authors 〈◊〉 him in the Protestant distinction of fundamental and 〈…〉 articles ; wheras we hold every article ( by 〈…〉 motive , though not of the matter ) to be 〈◊〉 that is , of necessity the matter ( how ever so small ) 〈◊〉 believed by us vnder pain of Damnation , whensoever 〈…〉 proposed to us as revealed by God ; or ( which 〈…〉 ) whensoever we know any matter to be either 〈…〉 Scripture , or declared by Catholick Tradition , or 〈◊〉 by the Church , we are bound to believe it , and can 〈◊〉 if we deny or doubt of it . So that doctrin which 〈…〉 grievous ●rror in the greek Church , we must call it plain 〈◊〉 which makes them no Church : because their error hath 〈…〉 heresy by the Church . 〈◊〉 second fraud in this matter , is , that he conceals from 〈…〉 the true state of the question , and abuseth the 〈◊〉 ●uthors he cites , as if they had vnderstood it as his 〈…〉 doth set it down , or had excused the modern Greeks 〈◊〉 , and argues with their sayings and authority in favor of p●●●estancy . The question is , whether the modern Greeks 〈◊〉 that the holy Ghost proceeds from the son as well as 〈◊〉 the Father . The Bishop pretends they do , and that they 〈◊〉 pain of Damnation , and proved this saying by these words 〈◊〉 Austin , this is a thing founded ; An erring Disputant is to be 〈◊〉 with in other questions not diligently digested , nor yet made firm 〈◊〉 authority of the Church ; there , error is to be born with but 〈◊〉 not to go so farr that it should labour to shake the very 〈◊〉 of the Church . The Bishop sayes this can not be 〈◊〉 of the definition of the Church ( though St. Austin 〈◊〉 expressly of the authority therof ) but of Scripture . But 〈◊〉 afterwards the words might be vnderstood of the 〈◊〉 of the Church , or general Councells ; to the end that 〈◊〉 might not imagin St. Austin thought such definitions were 〈◊〉 , or vnquestionable , he adds , But plain Scripture with 〈◊〉 sense , or a full demonstrative argument must have room 〈◊〉 a wrangling and erring disputer may not be allowed it . And 〈◊〉 neither of these but may convince the definition of the 〈◊〉 if it be ill founded . And to shew that this is no fancy of 〈◊〉 , but the doctrin of St. Austin , he quotes his words 〈◊〉 see them in the margent with an F. referring the word 〈◊〉 to Scripture . So that if you believe the Bishop and rely 〈◊〉 his quotations , St. Austin doubted not but that the 〈◊〉 of the Church in general Councells may be contrary to 〈◊〉 , and confuted by full demonstrative arguments . I confess that when I read this page and part of Bp. Laud's 〈◊〉 with Fisher , I found my self much troubled , vntill 〈◊〉 the matter , and then I resolved never more to 〈◊〉 him , or any Protestant writer , however so Saint-like or 〈◊〉 , by report , or in appearance . The truth is , St. Austin 〈◊〉 place cited by the Bishop , hath nothing at all either 〈◊〉 Scripture , or evident sense , or demonstrative argu●●●ts ; but addressing his speech to the Manicheans , he writes 〈◊〉 , Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me invitet ac 〈◊〉 , sola personat veritatis pollicitatio , and then follow the words 〈◊〉 by the Bishop , quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur &c. 〈◊〉 truth so bragd of and promised by the Manicheans to 〈◊〉 demonstrated , in that epistle called Fundamentum , saith St. Austin , if it be demonstrated to be so cleer &c. is to be preferred ; where you see St. Austin's quae , referred not to Scripture , but to that fictitious truth which the Manichees pretended to be in their doctrin . Nay St. Austin is so far from doubting of the infallibility of the Church , and general Councells in that very place quoted by the Bishop , that he disputes ex professo against the possibility of its erring , or of its definitions being contrary to Scripture , and sayes , that if the doctrin of the Catholick Church could be contrary to Scripture , he should not be able to believe rationaly , and infallibly , either the one or the other : not the Scriptures , because he receives them only vpon the authority of the Church ; Not the Church , whose authority is infringed by Scripture , which is suposed to be brought against her . Si ad Evangelium me tenes , ego ad eos me teneam , quibus praecipientibus Evangelio credidi ; & his jubentibus tibi omnino non credam . Quod si forte in Evangelio aliquid in apertissimum de Manichaei Apostolatu invenire potueris , infirmabis mihi Catholicorum authoritatem , qui jubent vt tibi non credam ; qua infirmata , jam nec Evangelio credere poter● ; quia per eos illi credideram : ita nihil apud me valebit , quicquid inde protul●ris . Quapropter si nihil manifestum de Manichaei Apostolatu in Evangelio reperitur , Catholicis potius credam quam tibi : si a●tem inde aliquid manifestum pro Manichaeo legeris , nec illis nec tibi : illis quīa de te mihi mentiti sunt : Tibi autem , qui eam scripturam mihi profers , cui per illos credideram , qui mihi mentiti sunt . Aug. cont . Epist. Fundament . cap. 4. Wherfore St. Austin doth not suppose ( as the Bishop pretends ) that Scripture or reason can be contrary to the definitions of the Church ; he professedly teaches the contrary in the very place cited , and vses the alledged words quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur &c. only ex suppositione impossibili , in the same manner as St. Paul speaketh ( Gal. 1. ) Jf an Angell from heaven teach otherwise , then we have taught you , let him be accursed . St. Paul well knew it was impossible that an Angell from heaven should teach contrary to the Ghospel ; and so did St. Austin that the definitions of a general Councel should be contrary to Scripture , or reason , as appeareth by his own discours against the Manichees . Vincentius Li●inensis abused by Mr. Laud , to prove the fallibility of the Church , pretending , that learned Father supposed and sayd she might change into Lupanar errorum ; à strumpet or stewes of errors . BUt A. C. tells us further ( saith Mr. Laud ) that if one may deny or doubtfully dispute against any determination of the Church , then may he also against an other , and so against all ; since all are made firm to us by one and the same divine revelation , sufficiently applyed by one and the same full authority of the Church ; which being weakned in any one , can not be firm in another . First , A. C. borrowed the former part of this out of Vincentius Lirinensis , and as that learned Father vses it , I subscribe to it ; but not as A. C. applyes it . For Vincentius speaks there de Catholico Dogmate , of Catholick Maxims &c. which are properly fundamental : ( but here the Bishop is mistaken , for Vincentius speaks also of not fundamentals , as of the celebrating of Easter according to St. Victor's decree ; the not rebaptizing of those who had bin baptized by hereticks &c. ) now in this sense , saith the Bishop , give way to every cavilling disputer to deny or quarrel at the maxims of Christian Religion &c. And why may he not then take liberty to do the like of any other , till he have shaken all ? But this hinders not the Church her self ; nor any appointed by the Church , to examin her own decrees , and to see that she keep the principles of her faith vnblemished and vncorrupted ; for if she do not so , but novitia veteribus , new doctrins be added to the old , the Church which is Sacrarium veritatis , may be changed in Lupanar errorum , I am loath to english it . Hitherto the modest Bishop , who quotes Vincent . Lirin . in his Margent , for his lupanar errorum , &c. and for the whole discours . Vincentius Lirinensis is so far from expressing any fear or suspition of danger that the Church should be changed into lupanar errorum , a stews of errors , by addition of novelties , or falling from the primitive doctrin , that as if he had foreseen this corruption of his meaning , and cutting short his words practised by Mr. Laud , he declares in that very place by him quoted , that only hereticks and vngodly men can entertain any such thoughts of Christs spouse , sed avertat hoc a suorum mentibus divina pietas , sitque hoc potius impiorum furor , these are his words , and concealed by the Bishop : who also striks out of Vincentius Lirin : other words wherby it did appear what a kind of keeper the Church is of the truths deposited with her , and how litle danger there is of corrupting the old , or admitting of new doctrin . The Bishop ( pag. 38. ) sets down the sentence thus , Ecclesia depositorum apud se dogmatum Custos &c. Denique quid vnquam Conciliorum Decretis enisa est ; nisi vt quod antea simpliciter credebatur , hoc idem postea diligentius crederetur , &c. But in Vincentius Lirinensis , It is thus , Christi vero Eoclesia sedula & cauta depositorum apud se dogmatum Custos ; here first he skips over these two words sedula & cauta , diligent and wary , because they spoiled his plot of persuading us that the Church might by negligence of its Pastors be insensibly changed , and corrupted . To the same intent he conceales with an &c. the rest that followes , which would have cleered all , and left no room for the Bishops fraud : for Vincentius Lirin : his words are , But the Church of Christ is a diligent Depositary or Keeper of the truths committed to her , never changes any thing at all in them , lessens nothing , adds nothing ; nether cuts away things necessary , nor adjoyns things superfluous ; neither looseth what is hers , nor vsurpes what belongs to others . Let any Christian or honest Pagan Iudge , whether these words be not Diametrically contrary to what the Bishop pretends vnto in this passage , viz. suspition and possibility of the Churches adding novitia veteribus , novelties to the old doctrin ; of making a change of that faith she first received from Christ and his Apostles , and of becoming Lupanar errorum ; which this good man and holy Martyr sayes he is loath to english ; and yet leaves out , cuts , and corrupts the Latin text of set purpose , to fix vpon Christs Espouse the greatest infamy . How Bp. Laud falsifies Occham to infringe St. Austins authority concerning the infallibility of the Church in succeeding ages as well as in that of the Apostles : and is forced by his error to resolve his prelatick faith into the light of Scripture , and the privat Spirit of Fanaticks , which he palliates vnder the name of grace , and therby warrants all rebellions against Church and state . AN act of divine faith must be prudent , that is , men are not bound to believe any article therof , ( v. g. that Scripture is the word of God ) vnless there evidently appear prudent and sufficient motives to exclude all moral possibility that any but God is the Author of the doctrin proposed to be believed . These motives of credibility we call the signs of the Church , and are the miracles of Christ and his Disciples , sanctity and succession of his doctrin and Doctors , Conversion of Kings and nations to christianity &c. These signs or motives of credibility , though they do not evidence demonstratively that our faith is true , or that the Church or Congregation of men wherin they be found , is the Catholick , yet they demonstrat an obligation in us of believing it , as we have proved elsewhere : in so much that if no such signs or motives of credibility had bin , none would be bound to believe any point of Christian Religion with certainty of faith ; and therfore St. Austin sayd he would not believe the Scripture , had he not bin moved therunto by the authority of the Church ; because Scripture of it self hath no sufficient arguments and signs to ground a prudent and undoubted belief of its being the word of God ; but the signs and motives of credibility invest the Church with sufficient authority to declare both that , and all other mysteries of faith , and to make our Ecclesiastical Ministery and Mission more authentikly divin , then any Regal Commissions or human Badges can set forth the truth and dignity of Ministers of state , and officers of war. Therfore , as not to believe , or to contemn men so qualified , when they command in the Kings name , is by the light of reason and consent of all nations , judged obstinacy and rebellion , ( not to be excused by pretending ignorance , or want of greater evidence then those vsual signs of their employments afford , ) so must it be obstinat heresy not to believe that what is proposed by the Church ( qualified with the aforesaid signs ) is revealed by God. This supposed , the main Controversy between Protestants and Catholicks is , about the resolution of Christian faith , for though both parties pretend that they believe because God revealed to the Prophets , and Apostles the Mysteries of faith , yet we say that Protestants can not shew how it may be prudently believed that Christ preached or revealed any such doctrin as is pretended , vnless it be acknowledged that the Church of every succeeding age was , and this present is , as truly and realy ( though perhaps not so highly quoad modum ) infallible in delivering the Apostles doctrin , as the Apostles were in delivering that of Christ. We do not say that Tradition or the Testimony of the Church , confirmed by the foresaid signs , is the prime motive , and last resolution of faith , but that the Tradition and Testimony of the present Church is infallible , to the end it may infallibly apply the prime motive , ( which is Gods veracity ) to vs ; and we prudently assent thervnto . But the Bishop denying this , is driven with Presbyterians and Fanaticks to an inbred●light of Scripture , and to the privat Fanatick spirit ; with this only difference , that where they say they are infallibly resolved that Scripture is the word of God , by the Testimony of the Spirit within them , his Lordship ( pag. 83.84 . ) averrs he hath the same assurance by grace . And because we object , and admire that no Catholick could ever perceive this inward and inbred light of Scripture , wherby all Protestants pretend they are assured it is the word of God , he concurrs ( pag. 86 , ) with Fanatitks in telling vs , that blind eyes can not , and pervers eyes will not see it . It s strange his Lordship did not foresee the sad effects which this Protestant principle and presumption wrought against himself , and his Prelatick Church , within a very short time after he writ this doctrin , and applyed the same against the Roman Catholicks . He might be sure it would be retorted against the Church of England ; for why may not every Protestant Sectary pretend , that the Prelatick Church of England is as blind and pervers in not seing the light of Scripture , as Luther and Laud pretend the Roman Catholick is ? It is but every particular mans fancy , and word ; no other proof is required by Protestants ; nor indeed can any better be produced to make good , that so many honest and learned searchers of Scripture as have bin and are in the Roman Catholick Church , can not , or will not see the pretended light of Scripture , so largely diffused among Protestants , and distributed to every Fanatick , Presbyterian , and Prelatick , whose faith can not be maintained without this rash judgment , and most dangerous consequences , as prejudicial both to Church and state , as our late distempers have manifested . But now to Mr. Lauds falsifications . To prove that the Tradition of the Church is not infallible , and that the words of St. Augustin , Ego vero Evangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret authoritas , should be vnderstood of the Church in the time of the Apostles only , the Bishop sayes , Some of our own Authors will not endure it should be otherwise meant by St. Austin , save of the Church in the time of the Apostles , only , and in proof of this he cites Occham in the Margent thus . Occham Dial. part . 1. l. 1. c. 4. and sets down these as his words , Intelligitur solum de Ecclesia quae fuit tempore Apostolorum . Jt is vnderstood only of the Church which was in the Apostles time . Wheras Occham in the very place quoted , holds the quite contrary , and sayes expresly , that the Church wherof St· Austin speaks in that sentence , containes not only the Apostles , but also the Church successively from the times of the Apostles to that very time wherin St. Austin wrote those words , as every one may see by his sentence truly related in our margent : And indeed St. Austin speaks of that Church which sayd to him noli credere Manichaeo , and had succession of Bishops of Rome , which the Church had not in the Apostles time . Divers Frauds and Falsifications of Bishop Laud to defend that Protestants are not Schismaticks . MR. Fisher having pressed Bishop Laud with that ordinary and vnanswerable argument , proving Protestants to be Schismatiks , because they separated themselves from the Roman Catholick Church , obstinatly holding divers opinions contrary to the ancient and generaly received faith , many wherof had bin condemned as heresies in former ages by General Councells , and all orthodox Christians ; his Lordship answers , 1. That the Roman Church is not the Catholick Church . We reply that when Luther and Calvin began their pretended reformations , such only as were in communion with the Church and Bishop of Rome , were held to be Catholicks ; all others having bin declared Schismaticks , or hereticks ; and for that reason the first Reformers did not claim to be members of the Greeks , or of any other Christian●Church then extant ; but acknowledge they found no men of their reformed belief , and therfore separated themselves from the whole world ; as Luther and Calvin expresly say , and we have proved , shewing they did not agree in all points with the Waldenses , Wickl●ffians , Greeks , or any other visible Congregation of Christians . Therfore they separated themselves ( by inventing and following contrary opinions ) from all visible Churches , and by consequence from the true one , if they will grant there is a true one vpon earth , as the Bishop would seem to acknowledge . Was it not lawfull saith he ( pag. 149. ) for Juda to reform her self when Israel would not joyn ? sure it was , or els the Prophet deceives me , that sayes expresly though Israel transgress , let not Juda sin . Here his Lordship supposeth two absurdities . 1. That Juda reformed its doctrin ( which is the only question ) 2. That the Catholicks are to represent the ten tribes , ( because forsooth they are more numerous ) and Protestants Juda : wheras no paralel can be more pat then the Protestants compared with the ten tribes , who left Jerusalem , and the High Priest , and rebelled with Jeroboam ; which King out of vngodly policy , the better to secure his vsurped Crown ( just as Queen Elizabeth ) caused the people to desert the old and true Religion , set vp new Priests , Sacrifices &c. But his Lordship reflecting vpon these and other things , thought necessary ( because he saw that himself and his party would be driven to the ten tribes at length ) to defend they were a Church , even after their schism or separation ; for that there were some true prophets among them , as Elias Elizeus &c. and thousands that had not bowed knees to Baal : not observing that such Prophets and others who continued faithfull , were of the true Church of Juda , though they could not go to Jerusalem ; and were no more of the ten Tribes Religion , then the Greek Roman Catholicks are of Mahomets , or English Papists of the Protestant . And wheras the Bishop's adversary tells him that particular Churches may not pretend to reform themselves and condemn others of error in faith , ( especialy their acknowledged spiritual Superiors ) when the need of reformation is only questionable ; and this was so evident ● confutation of protestancy , and so convincing a proof of all their Churches schisms , that his Lordship thought fit to conceal those words . ( When the need is questionable ) in his relation of his adversaries argument ; and after omitting and concealing the force therof , endeavors to answer as well as he can . That the first Protestant reformers were subject to the Roman Catholick Church and prelats in spiritual affaires , is confessed by themselves ; and that without any sufficient cause , or probable pretext , they rebelled against that superiority and Iurisdiction , is also evident ; vnless we should grant ( as the Bishop with all sectaries , sayes pag. 86. ) that all Christendom ( Protestants only excepted ) are so blind or pervers , that they can not , or will not see the light of the Scripture , and by consequence , their own Idolatry and superstition . And this his , and other such mens sensless assertion , must pass for good evidence , and be a sufficient warrant for Jnferiors to renounce their obedience , and reform the doctrin of their Superiors , and of the whole visible Church , without incurring the Censure or guilt of Schism , and heresy . Mr. Laud denyeth that in ancient times the Bishop of Rome was Superior to other Bishops out of his own Patriarchat , which extended no further ( saith he ) then to Jtaly , and the adjacent Islands . And to make good this equality of Patriarchs with the Pope , he quotes ( num . 170. ) the law , A patriarcha non datur appellatio . Then he sayes ( pag. 171. ) that in those ancient times of the Church government , Britanie was never subject to the Sea of Rome , and that Pope Vrban the 2. accounted his worthy predecessor in the Sea of Canterbury ( St. Anselm ) as his own Com-peere , and sayd he was as the Apostolick and Patriarch of the other world . The greatest fraud committed in treating matters of Religion is , to assert a notorious falshood so confidently that the truth can not be questioned , or examined without doubting whether the relator have either soul or shame . Who can Imagin that a man pretending not only to be an Arch-bishop , but a Patriarch , would endeavor to maintain Religion by such impostures ? Britain saith Mr. Laud , was never subject to the Sea of Rome No! How then came Venerable Bede to tell us that an . 673. St. Wilford Arch-bishop of York , being vnjustly deprived of his Bishoprick , appealed to the Sea Apostolick , was heard by Pope Agatho , and by virtue of his sentence restored to his Bishoprick ? How comes St. Gregory the great to write thus to St. Austin our English Apostle . Seing by the goodnes of God , and our industry , the new English Church is brought vnto the faith of Christ , we grant to you the vse of the Pall ( the proper badge or sign of Archiepiscopal dignity ) to wear it when you say Mass ; and we condescend that you ordain twelve Bishops vnder your Jurisdiction ; yet so that the Bishop of London be consecrated hereafter by a Synod of his own Bishops , and receive his Pall from this holy Apostolical Sea , wherin I , by the authority of God , do now serve . Our will likewise is , that you send a Bishop to York , to whom we intend also to give the Pall , ( that is , to make him Arch-bishop ) but to you shall be subject not only the Bishops you make , and he of York , but all the Bishops of Britain . If Vrban the 2. sayd St. Anselm of Canterbury was a Patriarch , none can deny but that he received that dignity and his Iurisdiction from Saint Gregory , as the others of the East , did from the Sea of Rome . That the Patriarchs of the East were subject and did appeal to the Bishop of Rome , is evident in the Ecclesiastical History ; and as for the law of not appealing from a Patriarch , Mr. Laud could not be ignorant it was intended for the inferior Clergy , who ( of ordinary cours ) were not to appeal further then to the primat of their province ; for so the Councell of Afrik determins . His Lordship , without doubt did see also how in that very Councell it is acknowledged that Bishops in their own causes might appeal to Rome . Mr. Fisher askt the Bishop , Quo Judice doth it appear that the Church of Rome hath erred in matters of faith ? as not thinking it equity that protestants in their own cause should be Accusers , witnesses , and Iudges of the Roman Church . He answers , there is as litle reason or equity that any man who is to be accused , should be the accused , and yet wittness and Judge in his own cause . Fisher replyes that , the Church of Rome is the principal and Mother Church ; and that therfore though it be against common equity that subjects and Children should be Accusers , Witnesses , Iudges , and Executioners against their Prince , and mother , in any case ; yet is it not absurd that in some cases the Prince or mother may accuse , witness , Iudge , and if need be , execute Iustice against vnjust and rebellious , or evil Children , especialy if the prince , or mother be infallible . But the Controversy being at length reduced vnto this , whether the Church might not err in doctrin , as Princes and parents do in governing their subjects and Children , Mr. Fisher sayes , it can not , and proves it by that of St. Mathew 16.18 . That Hell gates shall never be able to prevail against the Church . The Bishop sayes this is to be vnderstood that errors ( which are meant by Hell gates ) shall never be able to prevail against the Church in Fundamental Articles ; and confirms this his saying by one of St. Austin , quoting his words thus , pugnare potest , expugnari non potest ; wheras if his Lordship had bin pleased to set down St. Austins words sincerly as he ought , the case had bin cleerly decided . St. Austins words are , Ipsa est Ecclesia sancta , Ecclesia vna , Ecclesia vera , Ecclesia Catholica , contra omnes haereses pugnans . And then come in pugnare potest , expugnari tamen non potest . The Church fights against all heresies , contrary to every article , and by consequence whether Fundamental or not ; and yet expugnari non potest ; she can not be overcome . All heresies , saith the Saint depart from her as vnprofitable branches cut of from the vine : but she remains still in her root , in her vines , in her charity ; the gates of Hell shall not overcome her . All this ( as not being for his Lordships purpose , who challenged all our party to shew one Father for 1200. years after Christ , that concluded the infallibility of the Church out of Mathew 16.18 . ) is concealed by the Bishop from his Reader . The like fraud is practised by this Lordship in answering to that Text of St. Irenaeus , ad hanc Ecclesiam propter potentiorem principalitatem , necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam ; hoc est , eos qui sunt vndique fideles : in qua semper ab his qui sunt vndique , conservata est ea quae est ab Apostolis Traditio . These words he sets down in the Margent , and doth English them thus , To this Church ( he speaks of Rome ) fot the more powerfull principality of it , t is necessary that every Church , that is , the faithfull ( vndique ) round about , should have recours . ( Laud pag. 182. ) First he translates vndique ( which signifies ( ordinarily ) from all places , parts , and every where ) round about ; to the end St. Irenaeus might be thought to make the Sea of Romes principality a bare primacy of order , and precedency ; and then confine its Iurisdiction to Italy , Sardinia , and Corsica ; but hereby he would make the Saint speak non-sense , for he vsed this argument against the Gnosticks in France , and other hereticks , and gives us this rule of Christianity , that the doctrin or Tradition of the Roman Church is the touchstone of all Apostolical doctrin . If therfore vndique in this place doth signify no more then round about Rome , and therby the more powerfull principality Irenaeus speaks of , be restrained to precedency ; and the Roman Iurisdiction to sole Italy and its Islands ; he must have argued thus , T is necessary that Italy , Sardinia , and Corsica , should have recours to Rome for its Bishops precedency of place , or in regard of his Patriarchal power within Italy and the adjacent Islands ; Therfore the Gnosticks in France , and all other hereticks , of the world , are convinced of heresy for not having recours to the Sea of Rome . This would be a far fetcht consequence , and as vnworthy St. Irenaeus found Iudgment , as its necessary to defend Mr. Lauds false comment , and Religion . Yet to make this appear not so improbable an interpretation , Mr. Laud ( pag. 181. tells us that Irenaeus was a Bishop of the Gallican Church , and a very vnlikly man to captivat the liberty of that Church vnder the more powerfull principality of Rome ; as if forsooth , the so much talkt of liberties of the Gallican Church ( which were not claimed or thought on vntill 1300. years after St. Irenaeus his time ) could move him to limit the Popes spiritual Iurisdiction to Italy ; or that the Gallican liberties did exclude it now from France . These are too gross mistakes , and can hardly be excused by ignorance in so knowing a person as Mr. Laud is thought to have bin . After the same manner doth he abuse St. Gregory Nazianzen , who speaking of the Roman Church saith , Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habet rectam fidem . & semper eam retinet , sicut decet vrbem quae toti orbi praesidet , semper de Deo integram fidem habere . These words the good Bishop translates thus into English ( pag. 12. ) Ancient Rome from of old hath the right faith , and alwayes holds it , as becomes the Citty which is governess over the whole world to have an entire faith in , and concerning God. But ( saith his Lordship ) there is no promise nor prophecy in St. Gregory , that Rome shall ever so do , And to make this the more cleer to his illiterat English Reader , he leaves out the word ever in the later part of his Translation , and in his gloss vpon the sentence omitts the same word again , saying only , it became that Citty very well to keep the faith sound and entire . But How long ? Semper ( saith St. Gregory ) for ever . Therfore Bishop Laud thought fit to conceal that semper . At length he acknowledgeth a double semper in S. Gregory , but misplaceth the later . His words are plain ( saith he ) semper decet &c. wheras St. Gregory saith not , semper decet &c. ( it alwayes becomes ) but decet , it becomes that Citty which Governs the whole world , semper de Deo integram fidem habere ▪ alwayes to have the entire faith of God. Now who sees not a manifest difference betwixt these two propositions , It alwayes becomes that Citty to hold the entire faith . And It becomes that Citty to hold the entire faith alwayes The first only signifies , the keeping of the faith entire ( whensoever it is don ) is a thing well becoming the Citty of Rome . The second signifies , to keepe the faith so that it must never fail , or cease to keep it entire , is a thing well becoming the City which Governs the whole world . Besides , the Government wherof St. Gregory speaks , must be vnderstood of souls , or spiritual ; because Roma vetus did not govern in his time , temporaly , seing the Emperour resided in New Rome , that is Constantinople . Therfore St. Gregorys words are to be vnderstood of the Popes spiritual Iurisdiction , who governed the souls of the whole world as supreme Pastor vnder Christ. But Patriarch Laud can not endure this , and will needs haue all Bishops ; ( or at least all Patriarchs ) equal with the Bishop of Rome , by Christs institution ; and proves it ( p. 200 ) by the authority of St. Hierom , whom Mr. Laud mistakes ; for the St. speaks only of the caracter of Episcopacy , and sayes that all Bishops are ejusdem Sacerdotii , ejusdem meriti , and by Gersons Book de Auferibilitate Papae : when Gerson , saith he , writ this Tract de Auferibilitate Papae , sure he thought the Church might continue in a very good being without a Monarchical head . Therfore , in his Judgment , the Church is not by any command or institution of Christ , Monarchical . Gerson par . 1.154 . Answ. Gerson that famous Chancellor of Paris writ that Book in time of Schismes and Troubles , wherin for the peace of the Church , doubtfull Popes may be deposed , as also Hereticks . But Gerson never meant that a Pope may be so deposed as none other should succeed , he defends the contrary earnestly and expresly consid . 8. His words are : Any civil monarchy or regal Government may be taken away , or changed into an Aristocracy , the law still continuing in force : but it is not so in the Church ; which was founded by Christ in one supreme Monarch throughout the world : Because Christ Instituted no other Government vnchangeably Monarchicall , and as it were regal , besides the Church . Can any words be more express against Mr. Lauds assertion ; and yet his assertion is so positive , that I have known a Catholick Divine deceived by his authority in this particular ; but after examination wondred at the Bishops confidence . I conclude this matter of Protestant falsifications with this fair offer ; let the learned men of that side shew but any one saying of any ancient Orthodox Father , or Councell , quoted by the reformed writers of any Nation or quality whatsoever , to confirm protestancy ; and if it be not found either impertinent , or corrupted by addition , omission , translation , or concealing the words going before , or coming after , whervpon depends the true meaning of the Text , let them J say but shew one of these that speaks cleerly in favour of Protestancy , and I will confess in print that J have bin mistaken in the opinion I have of their Religion , and of its want of truth . But if not as much as one Orthodox Doctor , can be produced to support their Tenets , and the credit of Protestant writers , I hope they will not take it in ill part , that we advise our Contreymen , and all Christians to renounce their Conduct and Communion . SECT . XII . VVhether it be piety or policy to permit the Protestant Clergy of these three Kingdoms to enjoy the Church Revenues , for maintaining ( by such Frauds , and Falsifications as hitherto have bin alledged ) the doctrin of the Church of England ; which also they acknowledge to be fallible , and by consequence ( for all they know ) fals ; and how the said revenues may be conscientiously applyed to the vse and ease of the people , without any danger of sacrilege , or any disturbance to the Government , if a publick Trial of both Clergies sincerity be allowed , and liberty of Conscience granted . THat it cannot be piety in a Prince or people , to cast away so vast a Treasure vpon so vncertain a Religion and Clergy , as we have proved the Protestant to be , needs no proof . Neither is there any doubt but that it was policy , though not piety , in Q. Elizabeth ( whose title could not stand with popery ) to bestow the sayd revenues vpon any men that would call themselves a Clergy , and engage to fool the vulgar sort with fals Scripture for framing a Religion or reformation agreable to her title and interest , against the Royal line of the Stewards , lawfull heires of this Monarchy . As litle question can be made , that the present possessors , and pretenders of Bishopricks , and Benefices , will endeavor to justify and continue Q. Elizabeths cours , though the case be altered ; and that such of the layty as have vnlawfull designs in their hearts , will side with the Bishops , and strive to gain , or make a party , and win the hearts of ignorant and seditious people , by pretending great zeal for that prelatick Religion wherby Q. Elizabeth vsurped the Crown , and her Creatures the revenues of the Church ; not despairing but that as she by the advice of her Councel and Clergy forc't , or foold this Nation out of their loyalty , and duty to the Stewards ( by pretending that popery is Idolatry ) so themselves may vpon any occasion , ( and perhaps vpon the motion of liberty of conscience ) have the like success against K. Charles the second , as Q. Elizabeth had against the Queen of Scots . This is the only objection can be made against liberty of Conscience , from which ( say they ) will spring Popery and will be the plea of policy against piety , in case the falshood of prelatick protestancy , and the frauds of the faction interested therin , should be as zealously cryed down , as we presume it to be cleerly discovered in this Treatise . Our answer to this plea is . 1. That liberty of conscience , and legal changes of Religion in England , have bin alwayes made by Acts of Parliament , as we may see in the statuts of K. Henry 8. K. Edward 6. Q. Mary , and Q. Elizabeth ; and against resolutions taken ▪ in so legal and general a way , no rebellious designs have ever prevailed in this Monarchy ; nor can ; because in a Parliament is involved the free consent and concurrence of the Prince and people ; and in case it should be judged conscionable and convenient that liberty of Conscience be granted to all Christians , ( though thereby it could be feared the Roman Catholick Religion would be restored to these Kingdoms ) it must be at the instance of the people , and by vote of Parliament ; for that the Royal family , and the privy Councel are at present nothing inclin'd to Popery : But we hope and pray that in time God may open his Majesties and his Councells eyes to see the Divin truth , and the Temporal conveniences annexed to the ancient faith wherof this Monarchy hath bin so long deprived . 2. The case between the Queen of Scots , and her Royal issue now reigning , is very different ; for albeit her right was as cleer ( according not only to Catholick principles , but to Acts of our Protestant Parliaments ) as it is , that a man can not have two Wives at once , or that Q. Elizabeths mother could not be wife to K. Henry 8. during Q. Catherins life , nor her self legitimat ; yet the Protestant principles , and her Fathers Testament , seemed to favor her succession ; and the Queen of Scots mariage to the Dolphin of France made the English ▪ ( even Catholicks ) more slow then they would have bin otherwise , in declaring for her right in the due time ( which was a litle before , and immediatly after Q. Mary dyed ) because they were not inclined to be subject to a French King , or governed by his Viceroy . None of these circumstances and considerations now concurring , it is not likely that designing or discontented persons can take any advantage against the royal family that now reigns , in case liberty of conscience , or even the restoring of the Roman Religion should be judged conscientious , and convenient by the Parliament . 3. The Protestant Clergys sincerity is now much more suspected , and the common people less incensed against popery , then in Queen Elizabeths dayes ; when the Protestant Bishops and Ministers Sermons , and Bibles made men believe , that Images were Idols , the Pope Anti-Christ ; Priests , Traytors , Agents for the King of Spaine &c. which things now are discovered to be calumnies and impostures ; for the Bible making Images Idols , is corrected by publick authority ; the Pope known to be a civil person , like other men , not the beast of the Apocalyps : Nor Rome the whore of Babylon : Priests have served the King faithfully at home and abroad ; and if any of them hath in our late troubles negotiated with the King of Spain , or his Ministers , it was then intended , and since hath proved , and bin owned by our gratious Soveraign to have had bin for his Majesties , and his Royal Highness benefit ; and ( when they were in exile ) in order to their subsistance and restauration ; not any way against their interest . Wherfore seing the people of these nations are naturaly inclined to piety , though whilst they were abused by the Protestant Clergy , and countenanced by the interest of an illegitimat Prince , they did persecute Priests and popery as the greatest obstacles of peace and salvation ; yet now , seing they are better informed , and that in this particular of our desire to apply the Church revenues to the Crown for the defence of this Empire against all forreign and domestick Disturbers , we can have no design but duty to our King , and love to our Countrey , there can be no ground to fear , that the bare word or clamors of interested Adversaries , will disturb the Government , or incense a well meaning multitude against Papists , Priests , or any other persons that desire nothing but a peacable and publick Conference in order to liberty of Conscience , and to ease these Nations of those heavy burthens vnder which they grone . And indeed it concerns so much the soul and state , the publick good , and all privat persons to examin , whether English men ( after so many changes ) may not , and have not bin mistaken in matters of Religion , and misled by education , that we have reason to hope some worthy and zealous Protestants will be pleased , ( for their own , and the worlds satisfaction ) to move in Parliament , that our objections against the novelty of their doctrin , and the sincerity of their Clergy , may be taken into Consideration , and a publick Tryall allowed for the discovery either of their Cheat , or of our Calumny . If I be found a Calumniator ( no other joyned with me in this work ) I do engage in the word of a Christian , to present my self to due punishment , in case J escape the pestilence , wherunto J have resolved to expose my self for the benefit and salvation of my brethren ; but if the Protestant learned Clergy be found Cheats , I humbly and only beg , that the revenues which they possess may be better bestowed ; not vpon the Catholick Clergy , but vpon the Crown , for the defence and ease of the Countrey . If the Protestant Religion be true , by a fair Tryal it can receive no damage , nor the state incurr any danger : if false , besides the conversion of souls to the Catholick truth , the Commonwealth may declare ( to whom it appertains ) the necessity there is of seising vpon the Church livings for the preservation of the people ; and by their approbation conscientiously enjoy the same . And albeit never any Protestant contributed to the foundation of Bishopricks , or Benefices ; but that all such pious works in these Kingdoms have bin founded by our Roman Catholick predecessors , with an express obligation of prayer for the souls in Purgatory , and of preaching the Roman Religion ; yet I question not but that they who ( by vertue of the last wills and Testaments of the Founders , and long prescription of lawfull Predecessors , ) ought to be in possession of the Temporalities of the Church , are so good Patriots and dutifull subjects , as to declare they will resign their right vnto his Majesty , whensoever these three Kingdoms will think fit to grant liberty of Conscience , or to return the ancient true Religion ; and therby the world may be satisfyed , that our quarrell with the Protestant Clergy is not for lands , but for souls ; and of this we have given heretofore sufficient evidence in the change of Religion made by Q. Mary ; having then resigned our Abbeys , and impropriations to the Crown ; wheras the Protestant Clergy in these great warrs never presented the King with any Donative out of their vast fines and revenues . This backwardnes of the Bishops in so pressing a Conjuncture , together with the present poverty of the people , and the dangers wherunto these nations are cast for want of a publick revenue , ( which ought to be independant of taxes that can not be seasonably and securely raysed , when they are most necessary ) do not only justify , but exact a scrutiny into the right wherby the sacred patrimony of the Church is possessed by men that neither expose their persons , nor open their purses for the defence of their King and Countrey , notwithstanding ▪ that his Majesty , the Nobility , and people are so deeply engaged for the safety , honor , and trade of this Empire in a defensive war against the vnited powers of most powerfull Enemies ; and that the Parliament was forcit ( for want of other means ) to feed the King , and be his faithfull souldiers , with smoak of Chymnys , whilst a mean Ministery raised by Q. Elizabeth ▪ in opposition to the Royal family of the Stewards , doth swallow vp the substance of these Kingdoms . How ridiculous it is to hear these Protestant Ministers cry out Sacrilege , at this our proposal , as if they had any spiritual caracter , or any right to what they possess ; or though they had , as if the Church ought not to contribute in cases of extreme necessity , to the defence of the Commonwealth . The vndoubted Catholick Clergy will rid the layty of any scruple of Sacrilege , for applying the goods of the Church , to the necessary defence of the Countrey ▪ We know the ancient Pastors and Bishops of Gods Church did not scruple ( in such cases ) to sell the very Chalices and vestments of the Altars ; much less to spend their revenues for the safety of their Flock . But indeed they had no wives , nor Children , and therfore needed not be solicitous to buy estates for their sons ; or to setle jointures on their wives , or to rayse portions for their daughters out of the patrimony of the Church , which of right belongs to the poor ▪ and who is more poore then our soldiers , and seamen ? or then Husbandmen and Tradesmen that hitherto contributed ; nay then our King , that sacrificeth his revenue to the maintenance of the land forces , and navy ? But if the Protestant Clergy be confident of the Iustice of their cause , why do they not come to a tryal ? why do they oppose liberty of Conscience ? why do they with so many artifices decline reasoning and delude the people ? 〈◊〉 their Religion be true , we Roman Catholicks will not ●●pine at their riches , nor at the rigor of the laws made by Queen Elizabeth against our Religion , and against the interest of the Stewards ; or at least we will not be such fools as not to be hastily and heartily converted to protestancy , seing therby we may not only be saved , but share with the Protestant Clergy , enjoy very many conveniences , and free our selves from the penalties and incapacities wherunto we are subject for being Papists ; Herein they may believe us , there being no likelyhood we shall be obstinat against a truth ( if protestancy appear in our desired Conference to be a truth ) every way so advantagious to our selves . But an ill cause dreads nothing so much as a free and publick hearing ; since protestancy was intruded into England by Q. Elizabeth , the Catholicks have continually petitioned and pressed for a publick trial , but never could obtain that favor . Arch-bishop Laud ( pag. 445. ) against Fisher , gives this reason , that the King and the Church of England had no reason to admit of a publick dispute with the English Romish Clergy , till they shall be able to shew it vnder the seal or powers of Rome , That that Church will submit to a third , who may be an indifferent Judge between them and us , or a General Councell ; which Councell though general , he sayes ( pag. 194. ) is not infallible . And as for any other indifferent , and infallible Judge , the Bishop thinkes there is none as yet in the world ; and yet its certain that a Iudge or Councell that is not believed infallible , is not for the purpose , because neither party can be obliged to submit their judgments to its sentence in matters of faith . So that though the controversy could be decided by a fallible Judge , or Councell , we should remain still divided ; and that , the Bishop well knew ; but some thing he must have sayd to divert the well meaning Protestant layty from questioning the sufficiency or sincerity of their own Clergy , observing their backwardnes in giving satisfaction to our so just demand . And yet we granted to them in Q. Maries reign as free a disputation as they desired ; we gave them their choice of books and notaries , and time , not only to put in their arguments and answers in writing , but to review and correct what they dislik't vpon more mature deliberation . To Arch-bishop Lauds reason for not allowing a Conference , is answered , that we desire so much the salvation of souls and service of the state , that we will give vnder our own hands and seals ( the powers of Rome we cannot Command ) that if Protestants will admit of such a Trial as was granted to them in England , and to their party in France ( which we have related in this Treatise ) we are content to submit to my Lord keeper of England and other noble persons judgments therin : And let our Adversaries choos either to argue or answer ; let them object falsifications of Scripture and Fathers against us ; or answer to such as we shall charge them withall . And if they cannot maintain their Reformation without such fraudulent dealing as we object against them , let them loose the Church revenues ; if we can not defend our Religion without the lik fraud , let us not only be debarred from liberty of Conscience but loose our lives . Notwithstanding my Lord keepers known inclination to favor Protestancy , we will not except against his , and the Committees sentence ; so confident are we of the justice of our cause . If they refuse so fair an offer , though they keep their revenues , without doubt they will forfeit their credit , and be as much lost in the opinion of their own Prelaticks , as of Fanaticks . And as the Protestant Clergys diffidence must breed doubts , and diminish the esteem of the Pastors in the mynds of their flocks , so may it give the Protestant layty full assurance there can be no danger in embracing our Religion , which so learned persons as are in the Protestant Clergy , dare not encounter . Besides , the late change of their prelatick formes of Ordination hath so discredited their caracter of priesthood , and Episcopacy , that no sober lay-man will fight for a priestly function confessed by the Priests themselves to be invalid : and what confession of invalidity can be more plain , then to add vnto their old forms the words Priest and Bishop , forc't therunto by the arguments of their Adversaries , demonstrating that neither of those functions had bin hitherto sufficiently expressed in their Rituals ; and by consequence that the caracter could not be given by forms so vnsignificant , and so imperfect ? I have often considered what could move the Clergy of the Church of England to condemn ( in this particular of their form of Ordination ) their first Protestant Ancestors ; and to condescend to their Catholick adversaries , in a matter so important as that of the validity of their priestly and Episcopal caracter , and to acknowledge by this change , ( judged hitherto by themselves to be at least , superfluous , ) that they who began and perfected the reformation , were grosly mistaken , and themselves misled in one of the most essential points of Christianity , and in one , without which there can be no Church . Had the dispute between them and us , bin about conveniency of disciplin , or decency of Ceremonies , a change in such things , ( alterable according to the circumstances of time , place and persons ) might be pious and prudent , because it might take away occasion of cavills ; but to alter the essential forms of Priesthood and Episcopacy , and to add therunto ( now after a Century of years ) words which ( hitherto wanting ) concludes the Nullity of their Church , and Clergy , must rather augment the doubt , then avoyd the cavil . If they were satisfied of the validity of that form wherby themselves since Ed. 6. vntill this present , had bin ordained , what needed any addition of Priesthood and Episcopacy , which we argued , and they denyed to be wanting ? did they imagin that such an addition would end the dispute ? I believe it hath ; for it is an acknowledgment that our exceptions were well grounded ; but why should they give vs this advantage ? J fancy they have hopes that some other Spalato will Apostatize , and then by this new vndoubted form make them real Bishops . Yet that will not serve their turn ; their want of spiritual Jurisdiction makes their caracter vseless ; and want of jurisdiction together with their errors in Doctrin doth vn-Church a Congregation , as well as want of Orders . As this want of ordination renders them incapable of the Benefices and Bishopricks which they enjoy ; so their corruptions of Scripture , and Falsifications of Councells and Fathers , make them vnworthy : And he can not be a true Christian that will stick to their interest after that he is informed of the nullity of their calling , and of the falshood of their doctrin . Wherfore it will not be in the power of any prelatick polititian to make himself popular vpon the score of patronizing such a cause , or Clergy against Liberty of conscience or Conferences : and the Prelatick caracter and disciplin is to all other Protestant parties as odious , as our late distempers have evidenced . The only objection now remaining is , that Presbyterians and other Sectaries will take the advantage of an Act for Liberty of Conscience , or even for a change in Religion ( in case the Parliament should resolve vpon it ) for crying down of Monarchy . But ( as we said ) t' is well known these Sectaries either desire Liberty of Conscience , or their animosity is as great against Prelatick Protestancy as against Popery ; and if now they be kept in obedience and aw of the government , the King and Parliament will be better able hereafter ( in case of any such liberty , or change to keep them to their duty ( by the addition of the Church revenues ) then they are at present . Besides , it is very certain that among those Sectaries many are moral and conscientious persons , and would conform to the truth of the Roman Catholick Religion , had they bin rightly informed , and the Tenets therof had not bin rendred odious and ridiculous by the impostures of Protestant preachers , and the vulgar errors of a homly education ; all which obstacles will be easily removed , if Catholicks have liberty to speak and reason for themselves . So that considering the influence which Truth alwayes hath vpon honest dispositions ( such as our English are ) and the prejudice which all men retain against falshood , when it is discovered ( and it is not their interest to promote it ) I see no danger of drawing the people into a Rebellion vpon the account of Liberty of Conscience , or of opposing a change from Protestancy into the old Religion ; especialy seing the generality may hope thereby to see the Church Revenues lawfully and legaly applyed to their own ease , and against all disturbers of the peace , and Trade of these Nations . Let us therfore have a fair Trial and conference in order to Liberty of Conscience , and then judge of the truth and sincerity of both Clergys , and of both Religions . Notwithstanding the evident conveniency of this humble proposal , I fear we do in vain flatter our selves with the hopes of a publick Conference . We are inclined to believe what we wish for , notwithstanding that former experience , and our learned Adversaries knowledge of so cleer evidences on our side , casts vs again into despair . Did the busines depend of the vote , of the whole multitude of the Protestant Clergy , we might assure our selves of a conference , because many of the ordinary Persons are honest , and most so ignorant , that they believe themselves to be in the right way of saluation ; for , they take all that Bishop Jewell , and Iohn Fox say , for truth , never examining it further . But the Bishops and great Doctors are of another stamp ; I fear their guilt of conscience , will busy them in opposing all Treaties and Trials of Truth ; and yet methinks not any one thing should render them more suspected of fraud , and falshood , then so vnreasonable an opposition . 1. Because it argues diffidence of their cause . 2. Because their Church being confessedly fallible , and by consequence vncertain of the truth , they ought not to refuse any means wherby men may be further informed therof . Though we Papists believe the Roman Catholick Church infallible in matters of doctrin , yet whensoever our Adversaries desire to conferr about Religion , their Request is granted : nay the Councell of Trent ( how ever inconsiderable Protestants make it ) invited all the learned Protestants of the world to propose therin all their doubts and difficulties , offering all safety and civility to their persons . And though the infallibility of our Church be not consistent with a submission of our faith to the judgment of a Third in point of doctrin , yet that prerogative doth not debarr us from submitting ourselves in matter of fact , and falsifications , to a fair trial of indifferent persons . As for the Pope and general Councells not submitting to a Third in controversies with Protestants , it is no pride ; but a prerogative of all supreme Magistrats , whether spiritual or temporal , as our Adversaries confess , and contest to be reasonable when their own Bishops deal with Non-conformists ; and all Lay Soveraigns must maintain the same , when they treat with their revolted Subjects ; which Subjects are judged very vnreasonable if they refuse to treat with their King ( of grievances ) vnless he submits the controversy to the decision of a Third : and much more intollerable , if no competent Third were to be found , as it is in our case ; vnless we think that Turks , Iews , or Pagans , are fit men to judge of Christian Religion . Wherefore , if the Church of England thinks it unreasonable , that her Sectaries should not conferr with prelatick Divines , unless they have it under the seal and powers of Canterbury , that the Arch-Bishops , or the Convocation will submit to the judgment of a Third ; I understand not how Arch-Bishhop Laud could exact the like condition from the Pope or a general Council , before Protestants would confer with Roman Catholicks . The other reasons alledged for refusing to Roman Catholicks a publick Trial of Falsifications , and an amicable Conference of Religion , makes the refusal yet more unreasonable . Popery ( saith every Protestant ) is a growing Religion ; if disputes thereof be admitted , we shall turn all Papists : If they be not persecuted , their profession will prevail : If liberty of conscience be granted , very few will frequent Protestant Churches . The prelatick Clergys last reason is , Venient Romani & tollent locum nostrum . If we come once to reason the matter with Roman Catholicks , infallibly we shall loose our Revenues . But , I may assiure them that the Roman Clergy covet not their revenues ; if it be found that we have any right to the Church livings , we will lay our pretensions at his Majesties feet , and Petition the Pope ( as we did in Queen Marys days ) to leave all to the King and Parliaments disposal , for the ease and defence of our fellow Subjects , and the terror of our Enemies . And as for our Religion being a growing Religion , we cannot deny it , and rejoyce that our Adversaries confess so much ; how could it otherwise be the Catholick , or become universal ? Protestancy is confined to this Northern Climate , notwithstanding its liberty , of open and sensual allurements ; the Mahometan perswasion is propagated by force of Arms , and multiplicity of Wives ; the Greek Schism is but a spite and spleen against the Primacy of Rome , and therefore is justly Become a Slavery to the Turk . No Religion but the Roman Catholick doth grow and flourish , maugre the Storms of outwa●d Persecutions , and the strength of our inward perverse inclinations aganst it : we follow reason against the appearance of sense , we prefer vertue before vice , the judgment of the Church before our own , and Heaven before Earth ; and therefore we are made Strangers in our own Country , Straglers abroad , Tennants at will of our own Estates , and our lives stand at the mercy of every base Informer , that will press the law against our Conscience ; and yet in this sad condition and circumstances , our Religion doth increase , and is acknowledged to be a growing Religion : Ergo it is the true Catholick , and not only the most safe for the Soul , but the most convenient for the State , especially of Great Britain , as now shall more particularly appear . SECT . XIII . The same further demonstrated , and how by Liberty of Conscience , or by Tolerating the Roman Catholick Religion by Act of Parliament , the British Monarchy will become the most considerable of all Christendom , Peaceable at Home , and recover its Right Abroad . How evidently it is the mutual Interest of Spain and England to be in a perpetual League against France , and how advantagious it is for Spain to put Flanders into English Hands . THree things must concurr to make a Monarchy Powerful and Peaceable . 1. Uniformity in Religion , or at least Liberty of Conscience . 2. Great Revenues of the Monarch , without empoverishing ( by unusual and unimerciful Taxes ) the Subjects , unless they be slaves . 3 Men fit for Sea and Land Service . These Islands afford the last ; the other two we want , but may have them ( if we will ) by an Act of Parliament for Liberty of Conscience , or for tolerating the old Faith of our Ancestors , wherewith this Kingdom flourished in Peace and Prosperity for the space of 1000 years : Such an Act , I mean as may make legal one Profession , but wherein there ought to be a Proviso , that none of another suffer for his Conscience or Religion , especially , for the Roman Catholick . That without Uniformity in Religion , or without Liberty of Conscience , it is impossible for a Monarchy to be long peaceable , or powerful , is manifest by Reason and Experience . Reason doth dictate , that when Mens minds are Discontented and Oppressed by Persecution for their Conscience , they will hazard their all to be satisfied and saved ; their Rebellion against the Soveraign will be thought the ground of their Salvation , or at least the only way to preserve their Posterity from being damned , and brought up in the state false Religion . Experience doth shew that diversity of Opinions , if but one be permitted , doth not only occasion Domestick differences , as the parting of Man and Wife , of Parents and Children , Brothers and Sisters , &c. But is the cause of publick Inconveniencies , as jealousies between Princes and Subjects , from whence proceed civil Wars , which are the greatest obstacle of Prosperity in an Empire , or Commonwealth . Whilst the Hugonots were persecuted in France , France was not so considerable ; Here in England we are more afraid of persecuted Presbyterians , Fanaticks , and other Sectaries , than of the French , Danes and Dutch ; seeing therefore Liberty , or Uniformity in Religion is so necessary for the Peace and Power of a Monarchy , all States-men must grant the Religion fittest for the State is that , which is most likely to be generally embraced , if Men may have their free choice . Now whether that be Protestancy , or Popery , is the question . It is not Protestancy , because 't is now a hundred years and more , since it hath been endeavoured by all ways imaginable to bring the Subjects of the Crown of England unto an Uniformity in Protestancy , even by Sanguinary and Penal Statutes ; and yet the design doth not take , and indeed cannot : Because it involves a contradiction ; for , to be a Protestant , is to have the liberty of op●ning , and the gift of interpreting Scripture ; which Liberty and Prerogative is not consistent with a subjection of Judgment to the Authority and Interpretation of any Church , or Councel ; and by consequence not with Unity of Faith. Besides , the Protestant Church ( whether Prelatick , Presbyterian , or Fanatick ) is not as much as pretended to be Infallible in Doctrine , or in its Interpretation of Scripture ; and it 's a great vanity for a Church that professeth Fallibility in explaining the Scriptures , and admitteth a liberty or Latitude of applying the Letter of the same , to every private mans Spirit and Interpretation , to oblige men to any unity , or certainty of Faith , and therefore our Acts of Parliament are so inefficacious . Again ▪ Faith is not Christian , unless the Believers hold it certain ; and no Believer can hold his own Faith certain , if he submits and comforms his Judgment to the Doctrine and Decrees of a Fallible Church : For that no man can think himself certain of what he knows may fail ▪ evident therefore it is , that the Protestant Faith is neither Christian nor certain ; because the Professors thereof ( if they be guided by their confessed fallible Church ) must know that their Faith may be False . The Roman Catholick Church ( seeing it is believed Infallible by all Catholicks ) may teach a Faith which must be thought by us to be Certain , Conscientious , Christian , and by consequence convenient , fit for both Soul , and State. How conscientious and Necessary it is for the Salvation of the Soul , we have proved in this whole Treatise , as also how convenient for the State ; now I will shew the same in a word ; and by the confession of our Adversaries . It is a growing Religion say they , therefore ( I infer ) convenient , and fit for that Uniformity of faith , and union of Hearts , which cements the People with their Soveraign , and among themselves : It is indeed , so growing a Religion , that it hath spread it self over the whole world , not by force of Arms , but of truth , not by allowing leud liberty or licentiousness ; but by working miracles by professing , and observing abstinence , chastity , poverty and obedience to spiritual and temporal Superiors ; by mortifying our Passions , and the perverse inclinations of a spiritual pride and proper judgment ; this pride and property of judgment ( the source of Heresy ) we renounce by submitting our opinions to the Church , acknowledging in the same , God's Infallible assistance , and authority ; and this our submission proceedeth not from simplicity , credulity , or rashness , but we are induced thereunto by evident marks of Gods favour and providence clarly appearing in our Roman Catholick Church , and in no other ; as Miracles , Conversion of Nations , Succession and Sāctity of Pastors , &c. whereby the most Learned Men of the World , in every Age since the Apostles , have been evidently convinced of an obligation to conform their Faith to a Church so supernaturally qualified ; and therefore did prudently believe that none but God is Author of the Roman Catholick Doctrine ; and we judge our selves bound , under pain of damnation , to follow their example . For , these Signs of Divine Providence are so far above the force and course of Nature , and so visible to all the World , that not only the Learned , but all sorts of people who are not wilfully obstinate , must confess a sufficient evidence of Gods Commission , and Authority in our Church ; and by consequence they deny Gods veracity , who contradict the Doctrine of a Congregation that hath so notorious , and significant badges of his Divine trust for proposing Articles of Faith , and composing all differences in Religion . So that having for our guide a Church of so Authentick Authority , & a Testimony to rely upon , so visibly confirmed by supernatural Miracles , & marks of Gods Commission , the same Church must needs have his Infallible assistance in discharging her trust , of instructing Mankind ; wherefore we Catholicks may & do uniformly agree & acquiess in her Difinitions , with as little fear of being seduced , as of God being the Seducer . He must be very unreasonable , who ( after being informed of these motives of credibility , or marks of Gods Church ) will refuse to submit his judgment to so convincing arguments of the Divine Authority ; and this is the reason why not only the Natives of one Country , or the Subjects of one Monarch , but whole Kingdoms and Kings of most different tempers , and interests , do so easily , constantly , and unanimously submit and adhear to the Roman Catholick Religon , both now and in former Ages ; whereas they who at any time opposed the same , could never agree among themselves , or with themselves ; but were , and are divided into as many opinions , as there are fancies , or occasions offered of changing their inclinations , or of raising their fortunes . And now our States-men may easily conclude which of both Religions is not only most conscientious for the soul , but most convenient for the power and peace of the State , if they will reflect upon the different ways of planting and preserving both Religions , the Catholick , and Protestant . To omit other examples , let them consider how St. Austin our Apostle of England , arrived at Kent with forty Monks and Preachers , entred into Canterbury ( as our Adversary Fox confesseth p. 150. ) in procession with a Crucifix carried before him , and singing Litanies ; and how they converted that Kingdom and all England from Paganism to the very same Roman Catholick Religion we now profess , in every particular ; not by force of Arms , or by Frauds of falsifying the Letter and Sense of Scripture ; but by working confessed Miracles in confirmation of our Roman Text and Sense of Scripture , which they Preach'd ; and by the example of a Godly life . How this same Religion continued for almost a thousand years in this Island , and in all that time never was there any Rebellion upon the score of our Doctrine , or of Interpreting of Scripture ; much less did the Subjects pretend Scripture or the Word of God , to warrant a Superiority over their Sovereign , or to try Him by a formal Court of Justice . On the other side our Statesmen will find in all Histories , and this Treatise , that in this one Age since Protestancy began , that Reformation hath not entered without Rebellion or Tyrany into any one Kingdom , Country or City ; that he who first Preached this Reformation ( Luther ) did see it divided into more Sects than himself had years , tho' he lived to be an old Man. That never any of these Sects continued long without embroyling the State. That never Miracle was wrought to confirm any kind of Protestancy ; nor the Author of any of these Sects or Reformations lived with the esteem I do not say of holy , but of honest conversation . No marvel therefore if People so naturally honest as the English , cannot be brought to uniformity in a Reformation so unlikely to be Divine , & that was begun by a dissolute and drunken Friar , who had no Rule of Faith but his own fancy ; the marvel indeed is , that any sober man can be persuaded 't is possible to bring pious & prudent men to reject the old Religion ( confirmed with so many supernatural signs & renouned for so long & successful subjection to Lawful Kings ) for a new fangled device introduced into England by an Illegitimate Queen , in opposition to the Title and known right of our lawful Sovereigns . Seeing therefore our Adversaries do confess that the Roman Catholick is a growing Religion , even in this groaning and sad condition wherein we are kept in these Kingdoms ; who doubts but that if made the Religion of the State , and countenanced by Law , or even tolerated , it will soon grow to such a hight , that all other persuasions will be rendred contemptible , and incapable of thwarting the Designs and Decrees that will be resolved upon by the King and Parliament ? when Law , Religion , and Reason walk hand in hand , there is no room or pretext left for Rebellion upon the score of conscience . And what can be more legal than an Act of Parliament ? what more agreeable to Religion and Reason , than that every man ought to submit his judgment to Authority so Authentikly Divine , and so prudently judged to be Infallible , as that of the Roman Catholick Ghurch ? For , what more convincing arguments can there be of Divine and Infallible authority , than the undeniable Miracles , Sanctity , Succession , both of Doctrine and Doctors , Conversion of Kings and Nations , &c. of the Roman Catholick Church ? He who denies any of these , must consequently resolve to believe nothing , and even to doubt of himself , of his Parents , Country , and Relations , because no Man hath , or can have , a more credible Testimony , or a more constant Tradition for any one of these particulars concerning his Parents , Country , &c. than he hath for the Miracles wrought in Confirmation of the Authority , Infallibilty , and Doctrine of our Church ; the Sanctity and Succession whereof is as evident also as our converting of Kings & Nations from Paganism to Christianity , and cannot be contradicted without questioning at least all humane Faith and History . A Church and Religion so supernaturally qualified , cannot be prudently suspected to be a Cheat , or humane Invention ; And if once , I do not say , established , but permitted , in these Kingdoms , its Doctrine needeth not be fenced with Sanguinary Statues , nor favoured by any Penal Laws and Acts of Parliament for Vniformity ; all which rigorous proceedings will be superfluous , as also the continual care and vast charges of suppressing unlawful Assemblies . The absurd gestures and foolish fancies of every humorsom fellow , or Hypocrite , will not then take with the common people , and pass for motions and revelations of the Holy Ghost ; neither will silly Tradesmen be heard with patience in Pulpits prate non-sense , and comment upon Texts of Scripture . All these impieties and disorders I say , will be quasht when liberty is granted to declare unto the ignorant and misinformed people , the Roman Catholick truths , and the motives that induce to believe them : and no Nations in the World are more inclined to embrace the truth , and wholsom documents than these Islands ; witness the multitude of our antient Saints , the magnificence of our Churches , & even the zeal of the present Seekers , and Sectaries , in their mistaken way of Salvation . By all which it appeareth there would soon be an Uniformity in Religion in these Kingdoms , if the Roman Catholick were Tolerated . That the King would have a considerable and conscientious Revenue ( to support the Honour of this Monarchy , and suppress all sinister designs ) by the addition of the Church Livings , when resigned by the Roman Clergy , needeth no proof ; I believe there will be found more difficulty in His Majesty to accept , than in the Catholick Clergy to offer such a Donative ; seeing His Piety is now so great towards unlawful Ministers , doubtless it would be refined in case He did see the mistake . Let us suppose therefore that God hath heard our continual Prayers , and will open the eyes of him and of these Nations , and that they will acknowledge the Errors of their Education ; in such a case I say , the Roman Clergy ought to press ( and without doubt will ) their Revenues upon His Majesty and the Commonwealth ? 1. To let the World see they seek not so much Worldly Interest as the salvation of Souls . 2. Because the Kings Catholick Ancestors and theit Subjects of the same Profession , founded all the Bishopricks and Benefices of these Kingdoms ; and it is a principle and practice of Roman Catholicks , that in case of necessity , the Heirs of the Founders ought to be maintained and relieved by the Foundations . But the principal reason to move His Majesty not to reject , and the Roman Catholick Clergy to make so dutiful an offer , is the absolute necessity there is of a greater publick revenue , then at present the Crown doth possess . For though the English Valour should force advantagious Articles of Peace from our Enemies , that Peace will not be lasting , unless they see we are in a condition to force the performance as well as the Peace ; if at any time a breach of Articles should happen , or new injuries be offered . Nothing is more uncertain than the solemn agreement of Princes : Their Leagues last no longer than until they be at leasure , and recover strength to renew the War ; and if one of them wants a constant & considerable Revenue , he and his Subjects will be contemned and his Dominions made a prey to his more powerful Neighbour , though lately reconciled Friend . The best pledge therefore of a Peace with Foreigners , is our own power : if we rely wholly upon the word of the French , or upon the worth of the Dutch , we shall be mistaken , and repent our credulity . But shall our power so depend of Parliaments , that before the Lords and Commons can meet , or Ta●es be rais'd , our Enemies may be landed , and our selves so distracted that none knows what to do ? Without doubt our power must depend of Acts of Parliament , espicially of one annexing the Church Revenues to the Crown , seeing no other found doth appear . Never Parliament did give greater proofs of love and liberality to a King , than this present ; but the more people have given , the less able they are to give ; their will is still the same , their ability is not : what then ? must Church-men ( whose profession ought to be poverty , especially when the State is empoverish'd ) think of enjoying Millions of Revenue , and see that the Laity is not able to bear the burden of the War ? or must the Fnglish Monarchy be reduced to such a condition , that if the French or Dutch will but send a Messenger to have a Place of importance delivered to them , it must be done , because the King hath not Money to maintain a War , and defend His Subjects ? I do not say this hath been , but I fear it may be the case of England , if the King's Revenues be not made much more considerable than they are . And how they may be considerably , conscientiously and conveniently raised otherwise than I have proposed ( by the Lands of the Church ) I do not understand , and wish that others find out a better expedient . As for relying upon extraordinary Taxes and Subsidies , raised from the empoverished , and discontented Laity by new Acts of Parliaments , according to occasions offered , it is not safe ; for that such Taxes are look'd upon by all wise men , to be more dangerous than durable , as depending upon a popular Vote and Vogue , whereupon neither the secret and solid designs of State , nor the Peace of the Monarchy , nor the power of the Monarch ( all which require a constant and sure Revenue ) can be well built . Seeing therefore that extraordinary Taxes cannot be made , that ordinary and constant Revenue , which is absolutely necessary for the maintenance of Peace as well as of War , and that the Laity cannot contribute much more than they have done , and that the Revenues of the Clergy may be so conscientiously applied to the Crown , I see not any scruple of Sacriledge that may deter the King or Parliament from such a resolution . There is not one Catholick Divine thinks it Sacriledge to apply sacred things to pious uses ; and what use can be more pious , than the publick safety , the defence of King and Country , the ease of poor Subjects , the maintenance of Soldiers and Sea-men that venture their lives for our repose ? or then Pensions to their Widows and Children , when themselves perish in the Service ? Seeing I say , this is lawful and laudable in all other Countries , I see not why our Bretish Clergy should be excepted from so general a rule , and excepted from so particular a Duty ? The Portugal Nation hath been ever most Orthodox and pious ; a●d since their late separation from Spain , they have apply'd the Revenues of the Bishopricks to the maintenance of their War against the Castilians ; and this , without the Popes positive approbation : How much more lawful would it be for our Catholick Clergy to resign ( with the Poprs consent ) their Right and Revenues to the King upon so pious and publick a consideration , as Liberty of Consci●nce , and a Toleration of our true Faith ? and how rationally may it be presumed the Pope and all therein concerned , will consent thereunto ? But in such a case , how shall the Roman Catholick Clergy be maintained ? by Gods Providence , and Christian Charity , as they have been , when our Ancestors were first Converted . How are they now maintained in England , Holland , Japan , and China ? Let us not be Solicitous for things of this World ; let us seek the Kingdom of Heaven , and we shall not want . There was never more Piety in the Church , than when the Ministers thereof had no Lands . Let the Finances , or found of the Exchequer be settled in such a manner , that the King need not trouble His Subjects , unless it be upon some very extraordinary occasion , and we may be confident that what can be spared , will not be denied . All must be left to the Piety and Prudence of His Majesty , and His Ministers . Let us who are but Passengers and private persons in this great Ship of the Commonwealth , pray for fair weather , that the Sun of Justice may shine , and discover the dangers both of Soul and State , whereunto these our floating Islands have been driven by the tempestous and cross winds of Protestancy , and leave the rest to God , and to such as he hath placed at the Helm : The mist of Protestant Frauds , and falsifications once disperced , and falshood vanished into its own nothing , through the force and evidence of truth , our Masters will not be necessitated ( as now they are ) to steer the State according to the deceits of a mercenary Clergy , or to the Decrees of a fallible Church ; And as they will enjoy the benefit of our Catholick Doctrine , so we ought not to doubt but that we shall find the effects of their Christan Charity . Peace and Plenty thus established at home , then we may think of our Right and Interest abroad . It s undeniable that the two best Provinces of France ( Normandy and Aquitain ) are our Kings antient Patrimony , and undoubted Inheritance ; neither can his right to that whole Kingdom be much questioned , seeing that the Salick Law ( if ever any such thing was ) extended no further than Franconia , a Province of Germany ; and had it been intended for France , the Line Male of the Kings thereof , had not been so frequently changed : but it seems the French would have one Law for us , and another , or none at all , for themselves . Our antient Kings regarded not this Salick Pretext , they claimed by Law , and conquered by Arms that great Empire ; But the difference between the white and red Rose , occasioned the loss of our French Lillies ; when those differences were compos'd , and the Titles of York and Lancaster united in King Henry 8. instead of recovering France , he made a breach with Rome ; and by the Protestant Reformation , which he began , and his Successors continued , they have been so diverted and distracted at home , that they wanted both means and opportunity to prosecute their claim to the best Kingdom of Europe . And indeed so long as Protestancy doth so much prevail in these Islands , we may despair of having any Dominion in the Catholick Continent . We have had late experience how the two emulous great Crowns of France and Spain conspired to recover ( contrary to the ordinary maxims and practises of state ) Dunkirk out of our hands ; neither was it bestowed upon us with any other intention then of taking it from us when a peace should be concluded , tho' Cardinal Mazarin endeavour'd to make Cromwell believe the contrary . But that which must make our hopes ( even of Normandy and Aquitain ) quite vanish , is the prejudice which the generality and nobility of France , and of those two mention'd Provinces , retain against the Reformation which our former Kings not only professed but pressed upon others . The Normans and Gascoins do love our King as their undoubted and natural Prince ; but they are so averse from being of his Religion , that they had rather endure the hardships of a Jealous ( but Catholick ) Government , then try and trust the Faith and Caresses of a Protestant . And truly our proceedings in Ireland , and the Principles whereupon we have grounded the Settlement of that Nation , seem to have so little regard to the performance of Promises , Solemnity of Treaties , and engagements of publick Faith made to Roman Catholicks , that few of that Profession will be induced to take a Protestants word , or trust his Religion in another occasion ; seeing that , notwithstanding the Kings inclination , and Declaration to make good his Articles of Peace , such is the priviledge of Protestancy , and the Power or Prerogative it gives to the Protestant Multitude , that a King cannot be just to Papists , without running the hazard of being injurious to himself , and of loosing his Crown by a Protestant Rebellion . Is it likely that Catholick strangers will become Subjects to this Monarchy , when the Catholick Natives are by our Laws made Strangers , and incapable of Trust or Employment , only because they are Catholicks ? Is it credible we shall maintain the Priviledges and Rights of Foreign Catholick Corporations , when we make a Law that no Catholick shall enjoy his own Lands , or freedom in our Corporations , notwithstanding the express Articles of a proclaim'd Peace to the contrary , in favour of the Catholick Natives . Therefore unless we resolve to be more moderate in our Religion at home , it is a vanity to claim our Right , or to think of diverting our Enemies abroad . As for designs built upon the Strength of the French Hugonots , they can have no other ground but our desires ; that Party is brought so low in France , that the King made his aversion to their Religion , and Themselves , no state secret ; and scrupled not to tell their Agents representing Grievances , that though his Grandfather loved them , and his Father feared them , yet he did neither love nor fear them : And truly all that England can expect from them , is but the Presbyterian Prayers of Charenton , and of their other Calvinian Congregations , for the good success of Puritans against Prelaticks and Royalists . But if the Catholick Religion were Restored , or at least Tolerated in these Kingdoms , by Act of Parliament , we should be more formidable to the French Kings , then ever our Ancestors have been , and no less successful . Normandy , and Aquitain , could have then no pretext to except against their Lawful Princes ; the Scots ( who always hindred ) would now help to Conquer the rest of that Kingdom . The Princes of the French Blood could not be kept in such awe , as they are at present , if we had any footing in France , and the odious Name and Faith of Protestants , were ( by granting liberty of Conscience ) a little sweetned ; otherwise if the Princes ( who perhaps desire to favour any Foreigner , whether Protestant or Catholick to make their Cousin less Absolute ) did joyn with Protestants , their Power would be rendred useless , and themselves odious , because they joyned with Persecutors of the Catholick Faith. Besides ; the Spaniard ( whose Interest it is to have France divided , and embroil'd ) would countenance our Designs , and contribute to our Conquest , if we Tolerated Catholicks ; which now he dares not do either for scruple of Conscience , or at least for fear of loosing the Reputation and Name of the Catholick King , that gets him so many grants of Church Revenues , Comiendas , and Cruzadas , and so great Contibutions from the Clergy . If he joyn'd with us ( as now we are ) in recovering our Right , he would only gain the Name and Opinion of a Fautor of Hereticks , and loose the Donatives and Devotion of his Church Friends , and perhaps the duty of his Lay Subjects . But if England did grant liberty of Conscience , it were much more for his Interest to dispose of his Daughters , and ( with them ) of Flanders to our Royal Family , than to the German House of Austria . Hitherto the Polititians of Europe have been employed in keeping the scales equal between France and Spain , to the end neither of those two great Crowns might gain too far upon their Neighbours , and so by degrees devour all petty States and Princes , and afterwards endanger other Monarchs ; hence every Crown concerned it self not only in protecting Allies , but in fomenting Rebellions , as Q. Elizabeth did that of Holland , and of the other Vnited Provinces . But of late the case is altered ; Holland now Copes with England ; the Spaniard hath had so many losses of Armies , Navies , and Kingdoms , that now he is more pittied then feared , or envy'd ; and France is arrived to such a height of Power , by uniting to it self the Provinces of Lorain , Alsatia , and Rossillon ; the Cities of Perpignan , and Pignorole , ( the Keys of Spain and Italy ) the greatest part of Artois ; And the most important Towns of Flanders , and other Provinces , and moreover the French King hath setled so vast a Revenue upon his Crown , independent of his Parliament , or of the vote of the People , that he and France is become a terror to all Christian Princes ; which therefore censure our English Statesmen for not having closed in time with Spain , and for having supported Portugal immediately after our Kings restauration ; we should rather ( say they ) have permitted Spain ( by recovering of Portugal ) to counterpoise France , and put it self into a condition of revenging the manifold injuries done by the French to the Catholick and British Monarchies , and thereby secure our selves , and frustrate the designs , and attempts which were foreseen would be made by so Powerful , Prudent , and warlike a Monarch as Louis 14. against England , it being the likliest Kingdom to check his greatness , and prevent his being universal Monarch . Besides , they say we could not but expect a visit from so unquiet , emulous , and neighbouring a Nation as France , in case they were peaceable at home , and Spain busied with Portugal ; we having visited them so often heretofore in their own Country and Court , and indeed they never since have been at leasure , nor in a Posture to return us a visit until now . These reasons might have moved us to have had been more kind to Spain , especially seeing our Alliance with Portugal , ( for which we forsook Spain ) added not the Islands Azores , or Terceras to our Empire , as the World imagin'd it would , the Portugueses not being in a condition to refuse any demands , when they sought our Friendship , and were abandon'd by the rest of the World. This is the Discourse , and Censure of strangers ; which , being a meer matter of State , we wave as improper for our Profession . Yet common sense doth tell us , that the Azores , or Terceras could not be easily obtained , ( at least not long enjoyed ) by Protestants , seeing the Natives of those Islands are all Catholicks , and rather then live in Persecution under a Protestant Government , would ( in all likelihood ) have submitted to the Spaniard ; and we been Catholicks , or tolerated Catholicks , without doubt those Islands might have been ours . What little advantages our Soveraigns are like to have in the other World by being Protestants , hath been hitherto sufficienly declared ; in this Section we only shew how much they loose in this World by their Protestant Zeal of not Tolerating the Roman Catholick Religion . King James ( as the World knows ) was a very Wise Prince , and thought it was the Interest of England to be in a perpetual League with Spain against France . How far the Spaniards will engage with us at present , or trust Promises and Articles confirm'd by the Protestant publick Faith , I do not know ; but if by Act of Parliament we did tolerate Roman Catholicks , it would be evident to the Spaniards themselves that it were greater conveniency and security for the Spanish Monarchy , to Ma●ch continually with the Princes of England , then with the German Austrians ; and that it would be more for their purpose to give the Netherlands ( which are a vast charge to Spain , and of no concern but to busie France ) as a portion with their Infantas to our Kings , then to the Arch-Dukes , or to the Emperors . The reason is clear , Our Kings cannot be diverted from Invading France , and Relieving Flanders , ( or Spain it self ) by Turks , Swedes , German Princes , or Electors ; as the Emperor and Austrians may ; our King may secure their Spanish West-India Fleets , & frustrate all Attempts against them , which the Emperors cannot . Our Kings have an Hereditary Right , not only to Normandy , Aquitain , and Anio● , but to all France ; and this Right , together with our former Successes in that Kingdom , makes us look upon it still more as our own , then some Titular Kings of Jerusalem do upon the Holy Land ; we retain still hopes of Calais , the loss whereof occasioned Q. Maries Death This Hereditary Right and Hopes of recovering France , makes us as irreconciliable to the French , as the Spaniards are . The German House of Austria hath no such grudge , or ground of a perpetual and immediate quarrel , against the French ; and therefore is not so fit to joyn in a league offensive , and defensive with Spain against the French Kings , as England is : And the Peace of Munster shews that the German Austrians will forsake the Spanish Austrians sometimes , and that their Interests may be separated , as relating to France ; but the English and Spanish Interest ( in opposition to France ) are not separable . Wherefore , if any shall live to see England Tolerate Catholick Religion , I doubt not but that he will see a more strict League and Alliance between England and Spain , then ever hath been seen between Spain and Austria ; not only by Marriages of the Royal Families , but much more by a mutual Wedding of each others Interest ; and then we may rationally expect at least Cautionary Towns in Flanders , as convenient Places for our Retreat , and for a free Passage into France , or rather as absolute a Donation of the whole Countrey , as the Arch-Duke Albertus had ; whereas , whilst we continue Protestants , or at least Persecutors , neither will the Spaniards hear of such a Proposition , nor the Catholick Natives accept of us , if their Masters would grant it . The Spaniards understand how interwoven the Interest of their Monarchy is with ours , in case we gave liberty to Catholicks ; but think it not policy to trust us much upon any other Terms , and desire our Conversion , or a Toleration not only out of Charity , to others , but out of Conveniency to themselves ; and therefore they were so earnest with our late King in Spain to renounce his Protestancy ; and some attribute to his aversion against the Catholick Profession , the breach of the Spanish Match . We see how they sent three Ambassadors one upon another to demand the late Royal Princess of Orange for the Prince of Spain , not doubting but that in her tender years , she would have been brought to be of her intended Spouse his Religion . We have indeed been most Happy in the Person and Royal Issue of our Vertuous Queen and Gracious Queen Mother ; and yet the French confess they did not that Favour unto us for any Happiness they wished us , but to compass their own ends , and obtain some advantages of our late King , when the Passion of love to his beautiful Spouse , made him forget the reasons he had to be averse from matching in her Family . Our Alliances with Spain are Conjunctions of both Monarchys against an irreconciliable and common Enemy , France : They are not only private Contracts between the Married Princes , but publick concerns of their Loyal People : The Puritans always oppos'd them , for that they knew Matches with Spain engaged that Monarchy in crossing their Presbyterian Plots , and designs against our Monarchs . They would not have presumed to Rebel against Charles the I. had it not been the Interest of the French King to foment Rebellion against the Lawful Kings of England , and the English Kings of France ? Whereas on the contrary , 't is the interest of Spain to maintain the Right of our Kings , encrease their Power , and offer them Conveniencies and help to recover their own in France . We may therefore say with Truth , that the French King and Ministers seek our Alliance , thereby to lessen our Power : But the Spaniards , to increase it : We must judge of the Intentions of Princes , by their Interests , it is the Interest of Spain that England be Powerful ; it is the Interest of the French King to destroy both it , and that Line which claimes a Right to France . We see how much addicted , he and his Ministers were to the late Usurpers , and Rebels . By their Kindness to Cromwel and to his Sons , it doth appear , they had rather any Line should reign then the Right . And because our Kings Antient Right to France ( if they did favour Catholicks ) would , in all liklihood , give them footing in Normandy , and Aquitain , some Politians are of opinion that the French Statesmen like well enough of Protestancy in England . How far their Christianity doth incline them to wish our Kings , and these Kingdoms were Catholick , we cannot tell ; but their Policy and Proceedings seem not shew any great Zeal for our Conversion , fearing perhaps that Popery may make us Popular in France , and put us into a condition of recovering our own . To conclude this matter of State , wherein I am engaged against my Will , by the Impertinency and Importunity of our Adversaries , ( pretending that our Cotholick Religion is disadvantagious to these Kingdoms ) ▪ and by reason of the too great influence such humane considerations as these have upon state Ministers in their choice and settlement of Divine Worship in Commonwealths ; I desire the Judicious Reader will reflect upon the Situation and Fertility of these Islands ; the honest disposition , and Warlike Genius of the Inhabitants ; the irreconciliable quarrel of the French Kings to ours , the interest of Spain , in promoting these our Rights ; and then , after mature consideration , let him be Judge , whether any Monarchy in Christendom hath such means , and may make such Friends , to raise it self , without injustice , into a great Empire ? And what great pity 't is , that all these means and Friends are rendred unprofitable by our persecuting the old Faith , and by professing a new Religion , that divides us at home , makes our Government odious to such as ought to be our Subjects abroad , and deprives us of the true Friendship and Succours of Spain , whose interest it is that we were , ( or at least did Tolerate ) Catholicks , and were so considerable as to gain our own , or ( by endeavouring to regain France ) were able to divert the French from invading Spain , Italy , and Flanders . This is as much as I thought fit ( and perhaps more then some will think I ought ) to say , in a matter of this nature . But something must have been answered to stop the mouths of our politick Controversors , who continually harp upon this string of reason of state , in their Books against the Roman Catholick Faith ; pretending to demonstrate , that it is inconsistent with the Interest and Greatness of our Kings , with the Peace and Prosperity of their Subjects . Therefore leaving this Argument , I will return to that which is more proper for my profession , and shew how manifestly God hath confirm'd our Catholick Faith , ( and confuted the Protestant persuasion ) by Miracles , which are the greatest Evidence that is consistent with the nature and merit of Christian belief . For every point wherein Protestants & we differ , I will relate Miracles wrought in favour of our Doctrine , and our sense of Scripture , against theirs , not recorded by uncertain or obscure Authors , but by the prime Saints and Doctors of the Catholick Church , in the Ages wherein they lived . THE FOVRTH PART . The Roman Catholick Religion in every particular wherin it differs from the Protestant , confirmed by vndeniable Miracles . SECT . I. That such Miracles as are approved by the Roman Catholick Church in the Canonization of Saints , are true miracles , and the doctrin which they confirm , can not be rejected without denying or doubting of Gods Veracity ; and how every Protestant doth see true Miracles though he doth not reflect vpon them , in confirmation of the Roman Catholick Faith. BY Miracles approved by the Roman Catholick Church , I vnderstand such Miracles as induced the said Church to canonize and worship for Saints , the persons by whose prayers , or reliques they were wrought . As for other miracles , though I know many not mentioned in the Acts , and Processes of Saints Canonizations , are true , so doubt I not but some vulgarly reported , may be fals ; but that is a thing wholy impertinent to my design , and the dispute against Protestants ? 'T is sufficient for my purpose , and their confusion , that some true miracles have bin and are wrought in confirmation of that Roman Catholick Doctrin , which they deny , or doubt of , and we believe . And first we are to know , that no Confessors ( Martyrs have a priviledge , Martyrdom it self being a notorious miracle ) are canonized , or worshiped by the Roman Catholick Church , before the Pastors therof see authentick proofs , of supernatural miracles wrought by those Confessors , or their Reliques . A holy life and conversation , if not confirmed by supernatural signs , is not sufficient to canonize a Roman Catholick Saint , because hypocrisy may deceive all human observation , and outward appearances of morality are no infallible evidence of the internal acts wherby men are justifyed , and wherof God alone is witnes and Iudge ; and therfore before his declaration and approbation of the persons true sanctity by working vndoubted miracles , none can be honored by the Church as his faithful and beloved servant . In the inquiry , and examination of witnesses concerning the truth of miracles , the care and caution of the Bishops , and other officers , is no less then the importance of a matter , wherin the credit not only of themselves , but of the whole Catholick Church is concerned ; and therfore the quality and capacity of the Jnformers and Jnquisitors is considered , as well as the nature and circumstances of the miracle , and the judgment of able Physitians ( when it is a cure ) demanded , least some natural accident or art , might pass for a supernatural miracle . And this not only of late , hath bin the practice of the Church , but continualy since the primitive times , as you may read in St. Austin ( Breviar . Collat. di . 2. cap. 14. ) who also ( de oper . Monach. c. 28. ) reprehendeth some vain and wicked Monks that for filthy lucre carried about fals , or doubtfull reliques of Martyrs . But the Church always provided Antidots against such Jmpostures ; witnes the 14. Canon of the 5. Councell of Carthage against revelations and Reliques not approved of , and St. Gregory the Great in his letters to St. Augustin our Apostle of England ( ep . 9. ) And Innocent . 3. in the Councell of Lateran . c. 2. And if the same be not exactly observed in these British Kingdoms , it must be attributed to the want of the States permission to the Roman Clergy for exercising that power which Catholick Canons give them , over such as pretend to be Miraculists , Prophets , or to have revelations &c. Where the Roman disciplin and doctrin is obeyed , there are officers , or Jnquisitors appointed , whose duty it is to inquire after , and examin the life , doctrin , and conversation of such as pretend to have supernatural gifts , and extraordinary illuminations , or to work miracles , which none dares to allow for true , much less print or publish , vntil the fact , and circumstances be maturely examined by the Bishops and their Divines , or by the Jnquisition . Whefore all these diligences being applyed in so many different and distant places , by indifferent and eminent persons , it is as impossible the miracles returned by them as authentick , should be counterfeited , as it is that such men , no way related either among themselves , or to the person of whose life and conversation they inquire , and inform , should conspire to discredit and damn themselves for an imposture that can not be concealed , and wherby they are to expect no benefit , but the loss of their benefices , dignities , perpetual imprisonment , and infamy . No marvel therfore if it was never heard that any one miracle related in the process or Bull of any Saints Canonization , was found to be fals , or as much as contradicted by any credible Testimony ; so wary and circumspect the Church hath always bin , as also the Congregation of Cardinals , and Prelats , to which that charge is committed . Besides , some miracles are not only credible by relation and Tradition , but so visible and permanent even to this day , that they need no proof but eyes and will to see them . Such are divers Bodys of Saints preserved from corruption , not by Egyptian Mummies , or human art , but by divin power . Such is ( to omitt many others ) that most stupendious miracle of St. Ianuarius Martyr and Bishop of Beneventum , whose blood kept in a Vial of glass at Naples , is congealed , and looks dull and dry like earth ; but when in the festival of the Saint ( or at other times ) it is carryed in procession , or layd on the Altar at Mass together with the head , it is liquified and dissolved in such sort , that it seemeth to boil , and assume a lively and fresh colour . This happens every year , and never faileth but when some great and general calamity doth immediatly ensue , and fall vpon the City and Kingdom of Naples . By this permanent miracle , which every Protestant Traveller may see , is confirmed our Roman Catholick Religion in general , and in particular the Sacrifice of the Mass , Transubstantiation , prayer to Saints , and the worship of their Reliques . Other miracles there are so credible ( in regard of the Testimony and Tradition wherby they are delivered to vs , and of other remarkable circumstances ) that no man in his wits can deny the fact , though Protestants dispute the power , whether it was a divin , or diabolical . But when the miracle exceeds the Devils power , then they are puzzeld , and troubled . As for example , Father Marcello Mastrilli a noble man by birth , and a Jesuit by profession , was struck in the temples of the head by a weighty hammer that fell from a great height , and in that condition was carried from the work , wherof he was Overseer , to his bed ; where he lay without sens or motion for some days , vntill the houre of his approaching death , to the great grief of all the nobility of Naples his friends , and relations , who came to the Iesuits Colledge of that City to see this sad spectacle , and the next day to the Church to assist at his funeral , the Altars having bin the night before covered with black , for that his brethren were to say the mass of the dead for his soul , after that the Physitians , and Chyrurgions had given him over , and judged he would expire before the next morning . Some noble men who came early to the Colledge ( rather to pray for his soul , then to inquire of his health ) were surprized to see him saying Mass at the Altar , and could not credit their eyes , vntill they were informed of the admirable means wherby he was rather revived then recovered . The manner was this . Jn the dead of the night the Fathers that watched with ●ying Mastrilli , observed , that he not only moved , and turned towards the wall , but heard him speak ; wherat they were astonished ; a litle after he sate vp in his bed , called for his cloaths , pen and ink ; Then he writ with his own hand , how , at that instant St. Francis Xaverius Apostle of India , China , I●pan &c. and one of the first Companions of St. Ignatius , Founder of the Jesuits , had appeared to him in a pilgrims habit , but very glorious , and calling him by his name , askt whether he desired to live , and go preach the Roman Catholick Religion to Japan , as he had formerly promised , but could not persuade the Superiors to send him , he being of a weak constitution , vnfit for that labor , and voyage . Marcello answered , that he resigned himself wholy into Gods hands , to do what was most for his divin glory . Xaverius then told him , it was Gods will he should go to Iapan , and shed his blood for his divin faith in that Countrey , a greater favor ( said the Saint ) then J deserved , after all my travels and pains . Then he bid Marcello apply the Reliques he had about his neck ( which were of the Holy Cross , and of St. Xaverius himself ) to his fore ; he obeyed ; but the Saint told him he mistook the place , and with his own hand applyed them to the contrary side of his head , and suddenly was cured , having first repeated after the Saint a vow of going to Iapan ; they who watch't , heard Marcellus his words , but not any others . They ran to acquaint Father Vincentius Caraffa the late General of the Iesuits , who was then but Superior or spiritual Prefect of their house in Naples , and found that holy man vpon his knees at his prayers , but seemed not to be surprised with the news they brought him : whence many concluded that God had revealed the matter to him before their coming ; and granted health to Marcello at Caraffas request : He was indeed a person of extraordinary sanctity , as his life and death witness , and had always a great care of Marcellos progress in vertue . Immediatly after this miraculous cure , he began his long Journey , and being respected as a living Martyr by all the Princes of Italy , by the King of Spain , Viceroys of Portugal and of the Jndies &c. he arrived at length at Iapan , and there suffered a most cruel death , and glorious Martyrdom , as St. Xaverius had told him , wherof and of his miracles and Prophesies there are divers Books written , and many witnesses living . What can Protestants object against this miracle ? will they deny the fact ? Thy dare not question the Testimony of a whole Kingdom and City , or of so many persons of quality and integrity , eye witnesses therof . Will they attribute the cure to the power of the Devil ? his power doth not reach so far as to deaths doors ; at least he must have more time then was in this case , to recall men from thence , and restore them to perfect health . Will they attribute the prophecy of Mastrillos Martyrdom in Japan to the Iesuits craft , and presumption , grounded vpon hopes and conjectures ? They have more wit then to pretend and publish a prophetical assurance of a thing subject to so many vncertainties as the infallible performance of so great a Task , and so tedious and dangerous a navigation , by a person of so weak a constitution as Marcello , whose design ( if it were human ) might have bin frustrated by as many casualites and changes of diet , Climat , &c. as every where occurr in that space of time which is spent before men arrive from Europe to the Antipodes . What if Father Mastrilli had perished by the way ? Jn what a condition would himself and the Jesuits have been , who gave out so confidently that he would be put to death in Japan , according to St. Francis Xaverius his revelation ? Js it credible they would venture the credit of their order , and that reputation of integrity which they have gained in the Catholick world , vpon a meer conjecture , and contingency , and without any necessity of thus playing the Prophet ? This evidence doth vex peevish Presbyterians , but they must have patience , and confess that the Jesuits are not limbs of Anti-Christ , nor those horns of the Beast wherwith Ministers fool their flocks , and feed themselves : God would never rais from deaths doors such Jmpostors ( as Protestants pretend the Jesuits are ) and command them to go preach their doctrin ( if fals ) to so many remote Nations , nor countenance their Missioners , and Missions with this and many other miracles wrought to confute protestancy , and to confirm our Catholick doctrin . Though the Magdeburgian Century writers ( having reliued in every one of the first eleven ages cap. 13. many Popish miracles ( as they call them ) and not being able to deny the fact ) say ( as the Pharisees did of our Saviours miracles ) that they were either fables , or wrought by the power of Beelzebub , and lying signs wherby the superstition and Idolatry of Popery was confirmed : yet our English Protestants ( for the most part ) condemn these Germans for this sottish answer , but themselves give another as litle satisfactory . Both their ancient and modern writers ( being ashamed to deny the reality of our miracles , or the supernaturality of the power wherby they are wrought ) say , that true miracles are not of force to prove true doctrin , because they are neither infallible , nor inseparable marks of truth . Jn which rash assertion they contradict not only their learned Brethren Calvin , Chamier , and others , but call in question Gods veracity , and maintain the lawfulnes of heresy , and infidelity . For , the perfection of veracity ( even in men , much more in God ) is not a sole inclination of speaking always truth , but includes such an aversion to lying , ( and by consequence to all vnnecessary equivocation ) that he who is perfectly verax , or a man of truth , can not without violating that vertue , as much as seem to countenance or colour error , and falshood with the least sign of his approbation ; much less can God make errors and falshood credible by miracles , or by such an appearance of truth as may not only excuse the mistake of prudent and learned persons , but oblige them in conscience to mistake . That there is no necessity for God to work miracles in confirmation of errors and fals doctrin , is granted by our Adversaries ; and by consequence they must also grant that he can not use that kind of Equivocation . To say that he may work true miracles in confirmation of a falshood , therby to exercise and shew an absolut power over us his creatures , is as much as to say , he may exercise his power against his own inclination to truth , and therby destroy himself by violating his veracity . Besides ; though we should suppose this absurdity and contradiction , that God can work a miracle to confirm error , or falshood , and yet himself by such a supernatural action ( which involves his inclination ) not be inclined to that error , or falshood , though I say this absurdity and contradiction were supposed , yet can it not be denyed but that by such a miracle , at least we rational Creatures would be inclined to error and falshood ; But he who loves truth , ( especialy if he loves it infinitly , as God doth ) can no more incline others to error , and falshood , then he can incline himself therunto , because he loves truth for it self , and because it is truth , and by consequence ( truth being always the same ) he must love it in others as well as in himself ; and therfore can as litle incline others ( by working miracles ) to error and falshood , as himself can be inclined to error and falshood . That men are not only inclined , but obliged in conscience to believe whatsoever they see confirmed by a true miracle , is evident by these Texts of Scripture , Had not I don among them the works which no other man did , they had not sinned . Wo be to thee Corozain , wo be to thee Bethsaida , for had the miracles don among you , bin wrought in Tyrus , and Sidon , they had long since don pennance in sackcloth and ashes . The works which I have don in my Fathers name , beare witness of me . And , though you believe not me , believe my works . And again , We know that thou art a Teacher come from God , for no man could do these miracles thou dost , except God were with him . And the reason why miracles oblige vs in conscience to believe the doctrin by them confirmed , is , because they are a sufficient and moral evidence of Gods authority , and ( as it were ) the great Seal wherwith he warrants his Ministers and the Church , to preach , and propose his doctrin , and Commands . Now if he could put this seal to any fals doctrin , or therby authorize an erroneous Church , men might prudently doubt whether he doth not do so now de facto , and in every particular ; but with such a prudent doubt none is bound to obey any Church authority and by consequence there could be no obstinacy , heresy , or infidelity against Gods revelations , and veracity , how ever so authentickly and sufficiently proposed by miracles , which are the signs and badges of divin authority , and the most authentick marks of the true Church . To that ordinary objection of Anti-Christs miracles which ( though fals and feigned ) yet will seem so true to many , that most of the world will be seduced , we answer . 1. That there will be an apparent difference between Anti-christian and our Catholick miracles , though for want of due reflexion , prudence and piety , men will not consider the difference , nor compare his miracles with ours . 2. Christs words and warning of Anti-Christs feigned miracles , is a sufficient evidence of their falshood , becaus we must not credit our selves , or any outward appearances , against the express words of Christ. This is the reason why in the Sacrament of the Altar we are not deceived by the Species or appearance of bread and wine . Though there were no other argument that Anti-Christs miracles are fals , but this , that the miracles of the Church both in the old and new Testament , are first , and that we have a Caveat to beware of such miracles and miraculists as shall come afterwards to confirm contrary doctrin , whosoever is moved by Anti-Christ or his fore-runners , to forsake the ancient faith and signs of the Church , for novelties how ever so plausibly or prodigiously confirmed , deserve damnation . For , there are two qualities that oblige men in reason and conscience , to preferr one thing before another , how ever equall they both may seem to be in other respects ; 1. priority of time . 2. present possession . We see what priviledges and prerogatives are given by the law of nature and Nations , to such as are antienter by birth , or nobility , then others ▪ and how possession is sayd to be eleven points of the law . These qualities are most properly found in our Roman Catholick doctrin ; it is most antient , and always hath had the precedency of all pretended Reformations , both in time , and in the possession of the hearts of the faithful . The same we say of our Catholick miracles . Therfore we ought to preferr them before any others that shall appear afterwards in opposition to them . Besides , those miracle so credibly reported that no man can deny them without being guilty of obstinacy , and rashness ; and besides those others continualy visible , as that of St. Januarius ; there is an other kind of true miracles seen ( but not observed ) by every Protestant , vpon which if they did reflect , as many of them as mean well , would become Roman Catholicks . The difference between true and fals miracles , is , that true miracles are works besides or against the order of nature , and of secundary causes , and therfore may be don only by the divin power ; as to receive the dead , to cure diseases of the body , and distempers of the mind , without the application of any natural means , or remedys . And becaus the Devil hath less power over souls then over bodys , the cure of a distemper of the mind , wherof no natural cause appeareth , is a greater and more authentick miracle , then any cure of the body how ever so prodidious . Fals miracles are only such as may be don by the application of natural causes , and remedies ; as that of Vespasianus , of whom Suetonius recounts that he restored sight to a blind man , and the vse of his feet to a lame man : But Cornelius Tacitus doth acknowledge ( lib. 4. Hist. ) that the Physitians being consulted , did answer , those diseases were not incurable ; and Tertullian ( in Apologetico cap. 22. ) saith that both the disease and the cure was a work of the Devil . Anti-Christs miracles also will be such as as ▪ may be don by the cours and concurrence of natural causes . That miracles don vpon mens minds are greater then any ●●res , or changes wrought vpon the body , is granted by our Adversaries ; and St. Bernard recounts as one of the greatest miracles of St. Malac●ius , that he converted , an obstinat soul to recant his opinion against the real presence of Christs Body in the Sacrament . And for the most remarkable miracle of St. Bernard himself , it is recorded , how with the blessed Sacrament in his hand , he did so terrify William the prowd Duke of Aquitain , that he fell prostrate at his feet ; and he whom the most powerf●ll Monarchs of Christendom could not rule , submitted himself to the disposal of a poor Monk , becaus he threatned him with that which in appearance seemed to be , and Protestants hold to ●e no more in reality , or in substance , then a wafer cake . These things supposed as vndeniable in Philosophy and Divinity , it may be easily proved , that every Protestant doth , or at least may see , true miracles in confirmation of our Roman Catholick ●aith . For , without question it is either a miracle of God , or of the Devil , that all the Roman Catholicks ( not only now , but ) for so many ages past , should ( contrary 〈◊〉 the evidence of sense , and to our natural inclination of judging according to that evidence ) adore for our Savior JESUS Christ , that which in appearance is but a wafer cake , or a Cup of wine ▪ We are either abused , and seduced by Sathan , or inspired and enabled by the Holy Ghost , to contradict our senses ; which contradiction being in a matter so long and so much controverted in publick schools , and general Councells , and a thing wherupon depends our Salvation , we can not ●e presumed ( if we err ) that we err for want of examining , and comparing the reasons of both sides , Catholick , and Protestant : especialy if we consider the number , learning , and integrity of the Roman Catholick Examiners , and the great difficulty which they ( as well as all other men ) find , in believing or judging against the evidence of sense , and in denying that to be bread , or wine , which doth smell , look , tast , feel , and feed like bread and wine . Now if we prove that this marvellous and vnanimous contradiction of our senses can not be a miracle of the Devil , protestants must grant it is a miracle of God ; and from thence may conclude what censure themselves deserve for being obstinat against our doctrin , and for running with the appearance of sense against the express words of Scripture , confirmed by so supernatural and visible a miracle as our not condescending , or assenting to that evidence which we ( as men ) are naturaly inclined to follow . It is an vndoubted Maxim wherin both Catholicks and protestants agree , that God only can work vpon the soul ( while it is in the body ) immediatly , without the help of our senses , or without making impressions vpon the Organs therof . The Devil can not suggest or convey hereticall opinions into our minds otherwise then by so tempering the objects , and tampering with our senses , that the soul doth willfully , though vnwarily , embrace deceitful appearances for real truths . His whole power and art consists in humoring the soul in its mistake of these sensual appearances , and allurements , making them to seem vnquestionable evidences ; for it would quite destroy his drift , and spoil his market , if the soul did suspect a fallacy , or at least reflect vpon the vanity of sensual objects , and appearances . Wherfore he always inculcats that the best rule in matters of faith , is , not to contradict or contemn ( vpon any score whatsoever ) the experiments and appearances of sense . Even in Paradise before mans soul was wounded and weakned , he attemped , and compassed the fall of our first Parents by a fallacy , grounded vpon the evidence or appearance of their senses against Gods word , and warning ; God told them they should dye if they did eat of the forbidden fruit ; but by the sight and tast of the forbidden fruit , the Devil wrought so vpon their souls , that they believed him and their senses , and preferred that fallacious evidence before Gods express word . And if Sathan prevailed with them in the state of innocency to judge of divin revelations rather by their own senses , then by the literal sense of Gods word , how vnlikely is it that after such success he will tempt their posterity in a contrary manner ? or that he will suggest to men , that they ought not to believe their eyes and senses in the Controversy of Transubstantiation ; but rather rely vpon the litteral sense ▪ of Christs words , This is my Body ? Seing therfore it is a strange and singular miracle , that so many pious and learned men of different tempers , interests , times , and Nations , after so frequent and serious debates , in a matter wherupon depends their eternal happiness , should ( without any present , or prudent advantage or allurement ) resolve to contradict their own senses , and curb their nature , and inclinations of judging according to their sight , tast , &c. and that this great miracle can not be attributed to the Devil , whose suggestions and impressions reach not the soul , vnless they be conveyed through our senses , and our selves consent to the sensual solicitations , and appearances wherwith Sathan doth assault , and allure us ; it followeth , that our Roman Catholick resistance , and resolution of not condescending to those solicitations , and of not crediting such appearances , must be a miracle of God , and the effect of his supernatural grace , not of the Devil , or of any natural power of our own . So that our adoration of the Blessed Sacrament , and our belief of Transubstantiation ( which are the things Protestants most except against in the Catholick Religion ) if they reflect vpon them , will be found to be supernatural miracles , and convincing motives for their Conversion to our Roman Catholick Faith. Let Protestants number also the particular doctrins wherin they differ from Roman Catholicks , and observe how our belief and practise in such particulars go against sensual appearances and pervers inclinations , and they will find we have as many visible miracles as there are doctrinal and practical differences in our Church from Protestancy . To these may be added the general signs or marks of the Church , as our vnity in faith , the continuance , and vniversality of our doctrin , our Apostolical succession , our conversion of Nations to Christianity &c. No Protestant can rationaly deny that every one of these is a visible and supernatural miracle , which can be as litle attributed to human industry , as to chance , or fate ; For if they might , how comes it to pass that not one of these signs , can or could ever be found in any other Congregation of Christians but ours ? This much I thought fit to say , not to satisfy the curiosity , but the conscience , of them who desire to see any one vndeniable miracle that favors Popery . And albeit any one true miracle doth confirm the whole doctrin of our Roman Church , yet J will set down more then one for confirmation of most particulars wherin we differ from Protestants ; and begin with what we have in hand , concerning Transubstantiation , and the adoration of Christ in the Sacrament ; which our Adversaries pretend to be a kind of Idolatry ; for that our selves confess the Species or accidents of bread and wine do remain , and they are creatures by us adored together with Christ. Our common and constant answer ( wherunto no reply can be given ) is , that we adore the Species no more ( when we adore Christ in the Sacrament ) then the Apostles , and others who conversed with him vpon earth , adored his cloak , or cloaths , when they adored himself ! SECT . II. Of true miracles related in the Ecclesiastical Histories by men of greatest authority in every age , to confirm the particular mysteries of our Catholick faith , and that sense of Scripture , wherin Roman Catholicks differ from Protestants . THere is not any thing so evident which is not questioned by obstinate and interested persons . The Protestant layty ( in regard of their education ) are fixt in the maintenance of Protestancy , the clergy are interested , because it is their livelyhood . Let Catholick miracles be never so visible , or credibly reported , Protestants look vpon them as mistakes ; and that can be for no other reason , but becaus themselves are setled in a prejudice against the doctrin of the Church of Rome . The Authors that relate Popish miracles are credited in all other matters , and esteemed ●udicious persons ; but when they come to that point , they must needs loos their witts , or be judged Jmpostors . To avoyd this Cavil , or confute the Calumny , J have fixed vpon Authors whose wisedom and integrity hath never hitherto bin called in question , even in points of doctrin , and the sole denial of whose Testimony , is held to be a sufficient evidence of heresy , or foolery in the person that contradicts it , and of weaknes in the cause that can not be maintained without so vnreasonable a contradiction . And seing they are credited in matters of faith , J hope they deserve credit in matters of fact . Of miracles related by St. Chrysostom , St. Gregory Nazianzen , St. Austin , St Nylus , St. Cyprian the Martyr , St. Gregory the great , St. Optatus , and others , in confirmation of Transubstantiation , Adoration of Christ in the Sacrament , the Sacrifice of the Mass , Communion vnder one Kind , Prayer for the Dead , and Purgatory . A Certain venerable old man ( saith St. Chrysostom ) to whom many Mysteries were revealed by God , told , that in time of Sacrifice he once beheld a multitude of Angels with shining garments , compassing the Altar with bowed heads , as soldiers do in presence of their King. Which attendance of Angells ( saith he in the next words before ) was performed by Angels at that wonderful table , and compassed it about with reverence , in honor of him that lyeth theron . St. Nilus relateth how St. Chrysostom almost every day had visions of Angels assisting and adoring the Blessed Sacrament vntill the Sacrifice was finished . St. Gregory Nazianzen recounts how his sister Gorgonia was cured of a diseas after shee was past all hopes of recovery , by prostrating her self before the Altar , and calling vpon him who was honored and worshipped therupon . O admirable thing ! ( saith he ) she presently felt herself delivered from her sicknes , and so she returned eased both in body and mind &c. St. Cyprian reporteth of a certain woman , who ( saith he ) when she would with vnworthy hands have opened her coffer wherin was ( retained according to the ancient custom the Blessed Sacrament vnder the Species of bread ) the holy thing of our Lord , fyer did spring vp , wherby she was so terrified , that she durst not touch it . In the Ecclesiasticall History is recorded this example which Evagrius writ as a thing notorious , and don in his own time . In the time of the Patriarch Menas ( saith he● ) there happned a miracle worthy to be remembred . It was an ancient custom in Constantinople when many parcels of the pure and vnspotted body of Christ our God were remaining after Communion , litle Children were called out of the Schools , and were permitted to eat them . It happened , that a litle boy ( whose father was a Jew by profession , and a maker of glass by his trade ) being among the rest , did eat also his share of the aforesaid reversion of the Blessed Sacrament , but coming somewhat late home , and his parents demanding the cause , the child told innocently what he had don ; which the Jew his Father vnderstanding , he was so enraged , that vnawares to his wife , he cast his litle son into the burning oven wherin he vsed to melt and frame his glass . The mother missing the Child , sought for him for three days together , but hearing no news of him abroad , she returned home with an heavy heart , and sitting down at the work-house door , she began to bewail the los of her son , calling him by his name ; the boy hearing and knowing his mothers call , did answer within the oven ; wherat the woman starting , burst the work-house door , and rushing in , espied her Child standing amidst the Coals without receiving any harm . After coming out , being demanded how he escaped burning so long , a woman , said he , came oftentimes vnto me , and brought me water to quench the force of the fyer , wherwith I was invironed , and withall gave me meat as often as I was hungry . This accident being told vnto the Emperor Justinian , he caused the mother and boy to be baptized , which becaus the obstinat father refused to yeild vnto , by the Emperors commandment he was hanged vpon a Gibet . This and the former example of St. Cyprian , shew that God is not displeased with receiving the Communion vnder one Kind ; and that it was a thing indifferent in the primitive Church . To Confirm the Catholick belief of Transubstantiation , and the real presence of Christs body and blood in the Blessed Sacrament , there are very many miracles recounted in the Ecclesiastical History , as that of St. Gregory the great , who perceiving that a Roman Matron laught at the time she was to receive the Communion , and demanding the cause of her laughter , at so vnseasonable a time ; she answered she could not but laugh to hear him call the bread which her self had made , the Body of Christ. ( She vsed to present the Saint every week with Mass breads ) St. Gregory vpon this turned himself to the Altar , and laying the Blessed Sacrament therupon wished all the people to pray with him , that God would be pleased for the confirmation of the Catholick faith , to shew vnto the corporal eyes of all that were there present , that what the woman took for bread , was no bread , but flesh . And accordingly the consecrated Host appeared visibly to be pure flesh . Then beseeching God to restore the Sacrament to the former shew of bread , it forthwith appeared as it was at first , and the woman acknowledging her error , received it with humble and servent devotion . Primat Vsher is the only writer I ever read , who questioned the truth of this story , but quotes not any one Author , besides himself , that ever doubted therof ; and to make it seem the more improbable , falsifies the Text of Ioannes Diaconus , pretending he says that the Roman Matron found the Sacramental bread turned into the fashion of a fingar , all bloody ; wheras Joannes Diaconus only saith it was turned into flesh . The same vnsincere dealing he vseth in discrediting the relation of Paschasius Radbertus , and divers others , concerning a miracle to confirm the same mystery , assuring the ignorant Readers , that Paschasius takes it out of Gesta Anglorum , wheras it is well known , and Mr. Vsher confesseth els where , that Malmsbury who writ Gesta Anglorum , liued almost 300. years after Paschasius . To discredit the doctrin of Transubstantiation as well as the authority of that holy and most learned man Lanfrancus Arch-bishop of Canterbury , who lived in Berengarius his time , and confuted his heresy with convincing arguments from Scripture , Fathers , and vndeniable Miracles ; Primat Vsher says Lanfranc was the first that leavened the Church of England with this corrupt doctrin of the carnal presence . But his own Protestant Brethren tell him he is mistaken , and that Transubstantiation is as ancient in the English Church as Cristianity ; it being taught by St. Austin the Monk and Apostle of England . Let us hear Lanfranc speak for himself against Vsher , as well as against Berengarius ; None , saith he , though but meanly versed in Ecclesiastical History , or the holy Fathers , is ignorant , how God hath confirmed the Catholick doctrin against Berengarius with many miracles . Which writings of Ecclesiasticall History and Fathers ( saith Lanfranc ) though they arrive not to that most excellent height of authority that we give to Scripture , yet are they sufficient to prove that this faith which we 〈◊〉 profess , hath bin the same with that which all faithfull who went before us held from ancient times . When this heresy of Berengarius was again revived by Wicleff , and the Lollards , in England , our learned Countrey man Thomas Waldensis , who lived in those times , tells us , how God confirmed the doctrin of the real presence , and Transubstantiation in that Kingdom with manifest miracles , and of some he was an eye witness . Let us relate , saith he , to the glory of God , what happened in our own time and knowledge . In Norfolk there dyed lately a devout and godly mayd , called of the vulgar sort Ioan Meateless , because she was known never to have tasted any meat or drink , for the space of fiveteen years together , except only the B. Sacrament of the Altar , which she received with great devotion , and with extraordinary Ioy and Iubily of mind every Sunday . And which was most admirable , she was able to find out one only consecrated Host amongst a thousand that were not consecrated . Thus he : and without doubt this last was no less a miracle then the former ; because the consecrating of one Host among many depends vpon the intention , and inward determination of the Consecrator , which none but God can know . But from Norfolk let 's pass to London . I will now relate a story ( saith Waldensis ) wherof I my self was an eye witness in the Cathedral Church of St. Paul in London , where the venerable Arch-bishop Thomas Arundell of happy memory ( the son and Brother to an Erle ) sat in Iudgment in his Bishops chair , assisted by Alexander the Prelat of the Church of Norwich , and others . At which time he propounded certain Interrogatories concerning the faith of the Eucharist vnto a Taylor of the parts of Worcestershire , taken in the crime of heresy ; but when as the obstinat fellow could not be persuaded by any reason to embrace the right faith , nor would believe , nor call the consecrated Host any other thing but only holy bread , he was at last commanded to worship the said Host , but the Blasphemous heretick answering sayd , verily a Spider is more worthy to be worshipped then it is , when behold a Monstrous horrible Spider came sudenly sliding down by her thred from the top of the Church directly vnto the blaspemers mouth , and endeavored very busily to get entrance even as he was speaking the words ; neither without much adoo could the many hands of the standers by keep her from entring into the wretch whether he would or no. Thomas Duke of Oxford and Chancelor of the Realm was there present , and saw this wonder . Then the Arch-bishop stood vp , and declared to all that were present , that the revenging hand of God had denounced the man to be a blasphemer . Harpsfeild relates the same miracle out of the Register of Arch-bishop Arundell ; but we may doubt whether that old Register was not reformed as well as the old Religion , by the Protestant Prelats . Such cleer evidences are seldom preserved entire by the enemies of truth . We see how frequently the very law books and ancient English statuts are corrupted by our English Protestants , to favor the Kings spiritual supremacy , as is largely proved by Persons against Sir Edward Cook , and Bishop Morton , in a particular book against Cook , and in his Sober and quiet Reckoning with Thomas Morton : wherin he discovers the vnworthy practises of Justice Cook , and others falsifying the Charters of our ancient Kings &c. As for example that of King K●nulphus , pleaded by Humphry Stafford Duke of Buckingham . 1. Henry 7. for the sanctuary of the Monastery of Abindon ; which as it is printed by Pinson in Catholick times , says , that Leo then Pope did grant the said immunities and privileges &c. and is yet so read in the Lord Brooks Abridgment tit . Corone ; pl. 129. But since King Henry 8. spiritual Headship , Pope Leo hath bin left out in most printed Statuts , and Iudge Cook quotes them so corrupted , as good evidence against the Bishop of Romes jurisdiction , pretending that the Kings , and not the Popes , gave spiritual jurisdictions and immunities . St. Optatus Bishop who lived before St. Austin the Doctor , relates how the Donatists ( to vex the Catholicks who did worship the Blessed Sacrament ) cast the consecrated Hosts to their dogs . But they escaped not Gods heavy Iudgment ; for , the raging dogs with revenging teeth ( saith Optatus ) tore their own Masters in peeces , as if they had bin strangers and enemies ; yea as if they had known them to be theeves , and men guilty of our Lords Body . Miracles of the Mass. ST . Austin reporteth of his own time and Countrey , how that one Hesperius having his house infested with wicked Spirits , to the affliction of his beasts and servants , desired ( saith St. Austin ) in my absence certain of our Priests , that some would go thither &c. one went and offered ( saith he ) there the Sacrifice of the Body and blood of Christ , praying what he might that the vexation might cease , and God being therupon mercifull , it ceased . The like miracle doth Theodorus ( who lived in the fifth Century ) write happened to Coades King of Persia , who being desirous to enter into a Castle placed in the confines of his Kingdom towards India , was hindred by many wicked spirits which haunted the said Fortress ; and notwithstanding that as well the Persian Sorcerers , as also those of the Iews , had employed all their magick art , yet could not entrance be obtained . At last a christian Bishop was called vpon , who with once saying Mass , and making the sign of the Cross , put forthwith to flight the infernal powers , and delivered vp the Castle to the King free from all molestation . Miracles for Purgatory . ST . Gregory the Great telleth of a Monk called Justus , who ( saith he ) was obsequious to me , and watched with me in my dayly sickness : this man being dead , I appointed the healthfull Host to be offered for his absolution thirty days together , which don , the said Justus appeared to his Brother by vision , and said , J have bin hitherto evil , but now am well &c. And the Brethren in the Monastery counting the days , found that to be the day on which the thirtith oblation was offered for him . The same St. Gregory writes how Paschasius Deacon of the Roman Church was tormented with the pains of Purgatory after death for having adhered vntil neer his death , vnto Laurence the Schismatick , but at length was delivered from those pains by the prayers of St. German Bp. of Capua . We will not her detain the Reader with more particulars ; but confirm the whole bulk of our Roman Catholick Doctrin with the vndeniable miracles of St. Bernard , ( a known Papist ) against the Petrobrusians , Henricians , and Apostolici , whom Protestants claim as members of their own Church , for denying the real presence , sacrifice of the Mass , extreme vnction , Purgatory , prayer for the dead , prayer to Saints , the Popes authority , worship of Images , Indulgences &c. Against these hereticks St. Bernard was commanded by the Pope to preach and accompany his legat Cardinal Albericus to the Countrey of Tolosa , where he wrought innumerable miracles to confute , and confound the aforesaid Hereticks , as may be seen in the writers of those times in so much that the Saint in his return declined all Common roads , to avoyd the multitudes of people that flockt to reverence him as an Apostle : Though afterwards in his 241. Epistle to the Tolosians he saith ( to keep them constant to the truth , as St. Paul did to the Thessalonians ) we thank God for that our coming to you was not in vain , our stay indeed was short with you , but not vnfruitfull , the truth being by us made manifest ( non solum in sermone , sed etiam in virtute ) not only by preaching but also by power ( of working miracles ▪ ) the wolves are deprehended &c. Of all St. Bernards miracles J will mention but one which Godefridus relateth as an eye witness , and could not without known discovery and discredit have then reported a matter so publick , and of such importance , with so great variety of particular circumstances , had the thing bin vntrue . There is ( saith this Author ) a place in the Countrey of Tolosa called Sarlatum , where , as the Sermon was don , they offered to the servant of God ( as every where the vse was ) many loaves to bless , which by lifting vp his hand , and making the sign of the Cross , in Gods name blessing , he sayd thus : Jn this you shall know that these things are true , which we , and that those other are fals , which the Hereticks labor to persuade you &c. And whosoever they be ( of your diseased persons ) that tast the loaves , they shall be healed , that you may know us to be true Ministers of God. Ganfredus Carotensis , a Bishop , who stood by , added , if they take it with a good faith , they will be healed ; St. Bernard sudenly replyed , I do not say so , but whosoever will tast of them will be healed , to the end they may know we are true and sincere ministers of God. And so huge a multitude of diseased persons recovered by tasting the same bread , that over all the Countrey this was divulged &c. Here we see first : How St. Bernard took those people to be hereticks , and calls them wolves according to the phrase of the Ghospell , becaus they denyed the very same doctrin of the Roman Catholick Church that Protestants do deny ; as the real presence , and Transubstantiation , Purgatory , the Popes supremacy , prayer to Saints , worship of Images , Indulgences &c. We see how God declared by true miracles that the Saint was not mistaken in censuring them as hereticks , and by consequence all who obstinatly maintain the same opinions which they did , to be of the same stamp . Osiander a learned Protestant sayes , that though he takes not St. Bernard for a Conjurer , but rather for a holy man , and honours him as a Saint , yet he thinks his miracles were don by the Devil . And though this evasion be most absurd , and vnworthy either a Scholler , or a Christian , yet is it the common and best plea of Protestants against such evidences . J say the answer is most absurd . 1. for that St. Bernards miracles exceeded the Devil and natures power . 2. If he was a Saint , God would not have permitted the Devil to abuse him so grosly in a matter of faith , without the purity and profession wherof there can be no true sanctity . 3. Much less would he have permitted the Devil to make St. Bernard an instrument for the establishing of Jdolatry , and other damnable errors of Popery , in case the contrary belief of Protestants , and Petrobusians be the Catholick : for albeit God hath permitted the Devil to make vse of wicked men to broach and promote heresys , we never read that he condescended so far to his Luciferian pride , as to let him employ Saints in such a ministery , or to confirm falshood by such miracles as St. Bernards ; neither indeed is such a permission consistent with Gods veracity , or with our obligation to believe his doctrin , as hath bin proved . SECT . III. Miracles to confirm the worship , and virtue of the sign of the Cross , recorded by St. Paulinus Bishop of Nola , St. Cyrillus of Ierusalem , St. At●anasius , St. Hierom , St. Gregory Turonensis , Nicephorus and Theodoret in the Ecclesiasticall History . THat the primitive Christians by Tradition from the Apostles vsed to sign themselves frequently with the sign of the Cross , at the beginning and finishing of every work , rising and going to bed , before and after meat , is testified by Tertullian : and St. Cyrill of Jerusalem , sayes , let us not be ashamed to confess Christ crucified , but let the cross be printed confidently in our foreheads with our fingers , as also in all other things : in our bread , in our drink , in going abroad , in returning home , before sleep , when we rise , in travelling , in resting : it is a great gard , given to the poor gratis , to the infirm without trouble , it is a grace given by God , the mark of the faithful , and terror of the Devils . By this sign they have bin triumphed over ; shew it boldly ; when they see the Cross they remember him that was crucified ; they fear him that bruised in peeces the Dragons head . And even as the Apostles and they who stuck to their doctrin and disciplin , honored and vsed the sign of the Cross , so Simon Magus , Cerinthus , Basilides and all the progeny of hereticks , did , and do abhorr that instrument of our redemption , in so much that St. Paul , declares it to be a mark of heresy , to be an enemy of Christs Cross. And St. Hipolitus , that most ancient and learned Martyr , in his book of the Consummation of the world , sayes , that Antichrist will prohibit men to make the sign of the Cross. And as Simon Magus maintained that the Cross ought not to be honoured , becaus Christ did not realy suffer vpon it , but only his Jmage , and Cerinthus came neer the same error , pretending that IESVS and Christ were different , and that only IESVS suffered , not Christ : Besides that neither IESVS , nor Christ , but Simon Cyreneus , who carried the Cross , suffered vpon the same , and that Christ did shrink away : as these hereticks , J say , thought the Cross ought not to be worshipped , becaus they maintained Christ did not suffer death vpon it , so all Christians who believed his real passion and death , did honor the Cross in the primitive Church ; and God to confirm this their faith and piety , hath wrought innumerable miracles wherof I shall relate but very few . The first shall be taken out of Paulinus Bishop of Nolae his writings , a man of such sanctity and credit , that St. Austin , St. Hierom , St. Gregory the great , St. Gregory of Tours , Prosper Aquitanicus , and others say of him he was faithful as Abraham , obedient as Isaac , benign as Jacob , liberal as Melchisedech , discreet and prudent as Ioseph , meek as Moyses , innocent as Samuel , mercifull as David , wise as Salomon , of great courage as Peter , fervent as Paul &c. And so charitable that he made himself a slave in Africk to redeem from barbarous servitude some of his Flock . This holy Bishop Paulinus receiving from the hands of his Kinswoman Melania a litle peece of the Cross which John Bishop of Ierusalem sent vnto him , it happened that a stable full of hay took fire , and the flames reached to St. Paulinus his hous ; he presently took the relique of the Cross , and opposed it to that furious element , wherupon the devouring flames instantly retired , and the fire was wholy extinguished . Of this miracle St. Paulinus himself composed an elegant poem yet to be seen in his works . A greater miracle the same Saint observes in the holy Cross , which he mentions in a letter to his friend Severus ▪ for notwithstanding that ( saith he ) it was the custom of the Bishops of Ierusalem to present the Pilgrims with litle peeces of the holy Cross , yet by a continual miracle of the Divin power the holy Cross retaining living vertue in a dead matter , did so distribute its wood almost every day to the desires of innumerable people , that it remained as it were vntouched , divided to the receivers , and always entire to those that worship it . The same miracle is observed by St. Cyril of Ierusalem Catech. 4.10 . & 13. In the same letter to Severus , St. Paulinus doth recount that Christs Cross was known from the others of the thieves crucified with him , by reviving a dead woman , to whose body it was applyed . And Nicephorus saith that besides this miracle it cured instantly one that was dying . What a number of miracles St. Anthony the Monk wrought by making the sign of the Cross , every one may see in his life written by the great Champion of the Church St. Athanasius : and the like also of an other Monk St. Hilarin in his life written by St. Hierom ▪ one J will relate in his own words . At that time ( saith St. Hierom ) the seas transgressed their bounds , vpon the earthquake of the whole world , which happened after the death of Iulian. And as if God would threaten men with some new deluge , or els that all things were to return into their first Chaos , so hung the ships , being hoysed vp to the steepy tops of those mountains , which as soon as they of Epidaurus saw , namely those roaring and raging waves , and that Mass of waters , and that whole mountains were brought in vpon the shoars , by whose rapid flouds ( being in fear of that which already in effect they found to be come to pass , that the town would vtterly be overwhelmed , they went vnto the old man ( Hilarion ) and as if they had bin going to a battle , they placed him for their Captain vpon the shoar ; But assoon as he had made three signs of the Cross vpon the sand , and held vp his hand against the sea , it is incredible to be told into what a huge height it swelled , and stood vp before him , and raging so a long time , and being as it were in a Kind of Indignation at the impediment which it ●ound , it did yet by litle and litle slide back again into it self . And this doth Epidaurus , and all that region proclaim even to this day , and mothers teach it to their Children ; that so the memory therof may be delivered over to posterity . That which was said to the Apostles , if you have faith , and shall say to this mountain , transport thy self into the sea , it shall be don , may truly and even literaly be fulfilled now &c. For wherin doth it differ whether a mountain descend into the sea , or els , whether huge mountains of water grow suddenly hard , being as if they were of stone , just before the feet of the old man ; and that yet on the other side they should run fluid and soft ? The whole City was in a wonder , and the greatness of the miracle was publikly known as far as Salon . St. Gregory Turonensis tells us how after that a man who conspired with Cyrola the Arian Bishop to feign himself blind , and to say he received sight by his prayers , by Gods just judgment became realy blind ; ( as Bruleus of Geneva was found dead by Calvins prayers to revive him ) and after this cheat was so punished , Eugenius the Catholick Bishop restored to him sight , by making the sign of the Cross. Sozomen l. 7. c. 25. of his Ecclesiasticall History recounts how St. Donatus Bishop of Evorea in Epirus with making the sign of the Cross killed a monstrous serpent that devoured both man and beast . an . 394. How efficacious the sign of the Cross is against the temptations and charms of the Devil , may be gathered from many examples of the ecclesiasticall History . I will only mention that notorious fact of Julian the Apostata related by St. Gregory Nazianzen , and Theodoret. Julian notwithstanding his Monasticall profession , entertained ambitious thoughts of succeeding his Brother Gallus in the Empire , he dealt with a Magitian to know whether fortune would favor him . The Magitian led him to the place where he vsed to conjure , and the Devils appearing vpon his invoking of them , but like themselves , Julian was so frighted , that ( according to his own former custom , and that of the primitive Christians ) he made the sign of the Cross in his forehead , and the Devils vanished . Wherupon Julian reflecting and considering the virtue of that sign , and conferring therof with the Conjurer , this wicked fellow told him , that the Devils fright proceeded not from any fear of the Cross , but from a discontent , and detestation of Julians practising so ridiculous an action ; and the poor wretch ( saith St. Gregory ) out of hopes and covetousness of the Empire that the Magitian prognosticated , gave credit to his words . How many millions of souls are abused by Protestant Ministers , as Julian was by pagan Magitians ? Some Ministers will not admit of the sign of the Cross in Baptism , becaus they hold it to be superstitious ; others , though they admit of it in Baptism , yet in all other actions think it ridiculous , and both parties agree in believing that it hath not any virtue against the Devil . Not only our English Protestants , but Osiander , and the Magdeburgian Centurists do justify the speech of the Magitian , and would have us follow the example of Iulian the Apostata , as also the doctrin of the Gentils , whom Arnobius l. 10. contra gentes doth reprove for saying , that though the name of Christ IESVS but heard driveth away wicked spirits &c. yet that was vpon horror and hatred of the name , not vpon grant of greater power . SECT . IV. Miracles in confirmation of the Catholick worship of Images , related by the most eminent Authors of the ecclesiasticall History , and by the second General Councel of Nice an Dom. 787. wherin assisted 350. Bishops . OF all Protestant errors , and exceptions against the Roman Catholick Religion , not any is more vnreasonable , and inexcusable then their opinion of the vnlawfullness of worshipping the Images of Christ our Savior , and his Saints . Becaus . 1. They see that the Scripture makes distinction between Images , and Idols , God prohibiting the one , and not only permitting , but commanding his people to place the other in his Temple , even closs to the Arck of his Testament , and that the Brazen serpent wrought miracles , while the Iews lookt vpon it as an Image . 2. They might observe that vpon the very first preaching of the Apostles , St. Peters shadow ( which was the Image of his body ) wrought many miracles , vnto which God would never have concurred , had his shadow bin an Jdol , or had there bin in the worship of Images any danger of Jdolatry . And much less would Christ himself have sent his Image to Abagarus King of Edessa , or given his picture to Veronica as all antiquity did believe , and record . 3. They may be ashamed of the first broachers of their Protestant doctrin against the worship of Images , Iews , Saracens , and condemned hereticks , who ( as Tarasius proved in the second Councell of Nice ) corrupted the holy Scriptures to assert their heresies . But leaving these things we will mention a few miracles . Eusebius and others in the Ecclesiasticall History relate , how the woman that was cured by touching Christs garment , ( Math. 9.21 . ) returning home , set vp for memory of this benefit the statue of Christ , as also her own , adoring him ; and that he himself had seen them ; and that an vnknown herb did grow at the bottom of Christs statue , which so soon as it came to touch the garment of the statue , did cure all diseases . In the year 362. Iulian the Apostata ( vexed to see this statue worship't , and the worship therof confirmed with so many miracles ) commanded the same to be thrown down , and broken in peeces ; and sett vp his own in steed therof ▪ but his was immediatly destroyed by fire from heaven , and the Christians gathering together the peeces of Christs statue , placed it in the Church ; where it was , as Sozomenus writeth , vnto his time . The honest Centutists against all truth of History , not having the Authority of as much as one Writer thought ( by lying impudently ) to conceal the evidence of this miracle from the illiterat Protestants ; and some English have imitated their example in so shamfull an imposture , saying that Christs statue ( not Iulians ) was destroyed by fire from heaven . An other miracle you may read in the second General Councell of Nice produced by 350. Bishops as an vndeniable evidence against the heresy of the Image-breakers ; for the confutation wherof they were assembled , and the miracle happened but some 20. years before . The wicked Iews in the City of Beritus in Syria , crucified the Image of Christ , and peirced with a lance the side therof , whence suddenly issued such abundance of blood and water , that the Churches both of the East and West received reliques therof , and with it all diseases were cured . By so great , and so many miracles those obstinat people were converted ; and the Church of God appointed a day to celebrat the memory of so notorious a favor ; And Athanasius , a learned Bishop of that age , writ a Book intituled De Passione Imaginis Domini . The conversion of Iews to Christianity hath seldom bin effected without great miracles : None can be mo●e stupendious , then that which St. Vincent Ferrer ( an . 1412. ) wrought vpon their whole Synagogue in Salamanca , wherinto he entred with a Crucifix in his hand , on their Saboth , and preaching with great fervor of that mystery . On a suddain both men and women found white Crosses vpon their Cloaths , which made such an impression in their hearts , that they all were baptized , and turned their Synagogue into a Christian Church , which they called of the holy Cross. This Saint Vincent was a Dominican Frier , whose preaching against hereticks and Iews God confirmed by miracles , 38. dead were revived by his intercession , he cured all diseases with the sign of the Cross , holy water &c. and was of so great esteem among Catholicks , that when Martin King of Aragon dyed without issue , the naming of a Successor was left to St. Vincent , and all the Competitors acquiesced in his choice . See all this in St. Antoninus tit . 23. cap. 8. The chief Champion of Gods Church against the heresy of Image-breakers was St. Iohn Damascen , and therfore was so much hated by the Emperor Leo Jauricus ( by whose tyranny and Decree that heresy was professed , and the Catholicks persecuted at the instance of a Jew his Favorite ) that Iohn Damascen being in high esteem with the Prince of the Saracens at Damasco , the Emperor , by the means of Skilful scribes , counterfeited his hand and sent a letter to the Saracen , pretended to have bin writ by John Damascen to his Majesty inviting him to besiege Damasco , and giving him assurance of assistance and good success . Whereat the Saracen Prince was so enraged , that he commanded Johns right hand to be cut off . The Saint retiring to his Oratory , and prostrated before an Jmage of our Blessed Lady , beggd her intercession for the restitution of that hand which had bin employed vntill then in defending her sons honor , and her own , against the Iconoclasts , and should continue for the future , if restored , in the same service . Wherupon he seemed to sleep , and had a vision of the Mother of God , and when he waked , found his hand joyned as it had bin formerly to his arm . The Saracen Prince seing the miracle , earnestly intreated him to remain in his Court , But St. John Damascen retired to the desert , and there writ the praises of our Lady , and three excellent Treatises yet extant in defence of the worship of Images . All which you may see more at large in his life writ by John Patriarck of Ierusalem , and other Authors of those times . Jn the Ecclesiastical History it is recounted by Zonaras , how in the time that Leo Armenus persecuted Catholicks for worshipping Jmages , his son Sabatius Constantinus , who had bin dumb , came to the statue of St. Gregory Nazianzen , praying inwardly in his heart to the Saint , that he might obtain of God the vse of his tong , which immediatly God was pleased to grant . There is scarce a Countrey or County where the exercise of Catholick Religion is publick , which aboundeth not with Miraculous Jmages . I will only at this time mention that famous miracle don at Sichem , an . 16●4 . Related by Iustus Lipsius , and found to bee true by sundry Protestant Gentlemen , attending on the Earle of Hartford Ambassador in Flanders , who did see and conferr , with the party cured , and were satisfied by the publick and credible testimony given to them of the whole matter , as followeth . Iohn Clement whose Mother being at her delivery of him , cut , therupon died , leaving behind her this her son lame from his Nativity , and of a monstrous composition of body , his thighes and feet were contracted and turned towards the forepart of his breast , so as his knees did grow and stick thereto , his body was round or spherical , vnfit to stand , ly or walk . Having from his birth continued in this estate for 20. years , and so known to the Jnhabitants of Bruxells , and other places adjoyning , he was moved in his mind to go to our Ladies Chappel in or neer the town in Brabant called Sicham , where he had heard of many miraculous cures credibly published to have bin don . Being come thither in a Wagon , and having confessed his sins , and received the B. Sacrament , hee did in the end feel his contracted and bound feet to bee loosed and stretched forth , so as presently he stood on his feet , himself and the beholders being ●mazed therat . Many such or greatet miracles have bin don at ●oreto , Zaragoca , Guadalupe &c. Neither can they be denyed 〈◊〉 any who is not either very obstinat or ignorant . Let the most precise and peevish Protestant in England con●●der whether it bee Probable or possible that God would work 〈◊〉 undeniable miracles against his own word ▪ and the true sense ●f Scripture ; and whether it be not more likely that the Ro●an Catholick sense therof ( so confirmed ) is that which the ●oly Ghost inspired , and meant , rather then the sense of Lu●●er , Calvin , Cranmer , or of the Parliament an . 3. & 4. Ed. 6. ●hen all Jmages of Christ and his Saints were commanded by 〈◊〉 express statute to be pulled down ; Provided always that the ●ct or any thing therin contained , should not extend to any ●mage or picture set or graven vpon any Tomb in any Church , ●happel , or Churchyard , only for a monument of any King ●rince , Nobleman , or other dead person , which hath not bin ●ommonly reputed and taken for a Saint . So that by the Reli●ion and Laws of England , there must not be any sign or mo●ument of sanctity left or permitted in Churches , as if God ●id intend profane persons should have greater respect shewed to them in his own house , then his own Servants ; and that their having bin eminent in his Divin service , and his testifying the same by evident miracles , were a sufficient cause to break their monuments , and blot their memories out of the hearts of Christians . The Protestant Clergy delude their flochs with telling them that civil worship may be given to statues and Jmages of Kings , Princes , and Noblemen ; Religious worship may not be given to ●ny Creature however so holy , it being peculiar to God. But Christ teacheth contrary doctrin and says that whosoever receives a Prophet as a Prophet , shall have the reward of a Prophet ; if by Religious worship they mean Latria , or that supreme which is due to God alone , we allow their doctrin ; but if they take it ●or that reverence which is due to any thing that is holy by sanctification , spiritual grace , caracter , or application to the service of God , we deny it . What do they think not only of Prophets and Apostles , whom the faithfull Religiously worshipped , and adored in the old and new Testament , but of inanimat things , as the Temple , the Tabernacle , the Arck , the Propitiatory , the Cherubins , the Altar , the bread of proposition &c. Nay , what do they think of themselves ? Doth not every Protestant Bishop teach and inculcat to the people that he is their spiritual Father , and vpon that score expects they should kneel down to him and ask his blessing ? Do they not commend as Religious and devout souls such as give them this respect ? Is not this a Religious worship ? There is not any of their Bishops can pretend that so much ceremony is a civility due to their birth , but they attribute it to their spiritual dignity , and to their supposed caracter of Episcopacy . We desire no other Kind of worship be given to our Catholick canonized Bishops , or to Images , then that which the Protestant Bishops claim as due to themselves , and to their pictures . And yet these men will needs have Popery to be Idolatry , becaus we worship real sanctity with the same ceremony and respect , that they exact for mistaken Episcopacy . SECT . V. Miracles related by St Austin , St. Ambrose , St Gregory Nazianzen St. Epiphanius , St. Chrysostom , St. Hierom , St. Optatus , St ▪ Bede , St ▪ Bernard , St. Anselm , and others in confirmation of praying to Saints , and worshiping of their Reliques ; and of the vertue of Holy water , of the Sacraments of Confirmation , Confession , and Extreme unction . ST . Hierom sayes the heretick Eunomius was the first that impugned the worshiping of Saints Reliques , whose error Vigilantius followed , and added an other against praying to Saints . How ancient the worship of Saints Reliques is , we see by the Epistle of the Church of Smirna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarpus , St. John Evangelists Disciple ; whose reliks the Christians gathered ( even after his body was burnt ) with most fervent devotion . St. Ambrose gives many reasons why reliques ought to be honored . If you ask me , ( saith he ) what do you honor in flesh consumed , and turned into dust ? I honor in the Martyrs flesh the scarres that he received for Christ ; I honor the memory of one that liveth by the perpetuity of his vertue ; I honor ashes sanctified by the confession of our Lord ; I honor in ashes the seeds of eternity : J honor the body that taught me to love God , and to contemn death for his sake . And why should not Christians honor that body which the Devils fear ? &c. Finaly I honor a body that honored Christ in th● sword , and is to reign with him in heaven . Thus St. Ambrose ; Now to our Miracles . St. Austin ( de Civit. Dei l. 22. c. 8. ) telleth how that in the presence of him and others , a devout woman called Palladia , who being sore diseased , and repairing for her health to the monument of St. Stephen , as soon as she prayed to the Saint , sana surrexit , she received health . And in the same Chapter a little before he relates the like miraculous example of one Florentius of Hippo , and of Eucharius a Priest of Spain , as also of Ten infirm persons in his presence miraculously cured ; and sundry dead restored to life . In the ninth book of his Confessions cap. 7. he telleth how the dead bodyes of St. Gervasius and Protasius were after many years found vncorrupted ; and that at their dead bodies a blind man received his sight . A miracle ( saith St. Austin ) don at Millan ( where the said bodys lay ) when I was there , a great number of people being witnesses therof . St. Hierom recounteth in the life of St. Hilarion , how his dead body was after ten months found vncorrupted , yeilding forth a fragrant smel . And St. Bede testifieth the same of St. Cuthbert l. 4. hist. cap. 30. St. Ambrose having had a revelation where the bodys of the Martyrs St. Gervasius and Protasius lay , placed them with great solemnity in the Church , and they wrought many miracles , which he recounts ; among others the Devils were tormented by the holy Reliques , and were forced to confess that their torments proceeded from the intercession of the Saints ; but the Arrians , vexed to see the Catholick faith confirmed by such miracles , endeavored to discredit them by saying the Devils were not realy tormented , and that these were no true miracles , as Protestants say now of our Exorcisms ; for which folly and obstinacy they were reprehended by St. Ambrose , as Vigilantius for the same reason is censured by St. Hierom. In like manner ought the Centurists and other Protestants be condemned for discrediting the miracles which St. Chrysostom , Theodoret , and Rufinus relate of St. Babylas , which was , that after bringing of the body of the holy Martyr into the Temple of an Idol , the Jdol ceased to speak , and therfore Iulian the Apostata commanded the body should be removed from thence ; The Centurists answer that the Devil was neither silenced nor frighted by the Saint , and presence of his Reliques ; but feigned to bee overcome , to the end that superstition might encreas . St. Gregory Nazianzen saith that St. Cyprians Reliques are omnipotent to work miracles , if applied with faith , as experience doth shew : and ( orat . 1. in Iulianum ) he relateth how Gallus and Iulianus two Brethren , and Nephews to the Emperor Constantius , joyning to build a famous Church over the Reliques of St. Mamans Martyr , the part which Gallus ( a good Catholick ) vndertook , went on most prosperously ; but the part of Iulian ( who was then perverted in his Iudgment , and became afterwards the Apostata ) could never as much as have the foundation layd , for that the earth by continual and vnusual earthquakes , did always cast from it self , and in a manner vomit forth all that was layd in it by Iulianus . And the reason was saith St. Gregory Nazianzen , becaus the Martyrs are so linkt in charity , that St. Mamans would not be honored by him , who in time was to decry the worship of his Brethren , and disgrace them . But the Centurists above cited say , that God hindred Julianus his fabrick to shew that he was not pleased with the superstitious worship of Martyrs ; and yet they do not consider that he was pleased to let Gallus his fabrick prosper . Such fopperies as these we must expect even from learned men that vndertake to maintain new opinions against the ancient doctrin of Gods Church , confirmed by evident miracles . St. Anselm whom Protestants commend , as one of the worthiest Prelats of the Church both for piety and learning , recounteth in his book of the Miracles of our B. Lady this story . The Devil ( who out of his inveterat hatred , and enuy to man , seeks all means possible to ruin him ) took human shape , and put himself into the service of a Nobleman , with whose humor he did so comply , as in a short time he was steward of his family , and Master of his will : taking the advantage of this favor he persuaded him to commit many mischiefs , and murthers ; walking one day in the fields with some of his servants not much better then himself , he abused a devout Priest , and carried him prisoner to his Castle . At night the Priest signified to him that hee had a busines to impart to his Lordship , in which he was much concerned , but it must be opend to him in presence of all his servants . He longing to know the busines commanded all his servants should be called ; and all appeared , the steward only excepted , who retired to his chamber , pretending he was not well ; and being pressed to come , answered , he could not stirr : the Priest replyed to the Lord , that the stewards presence was absolutely necessary ; wherupon other servants were ordered ▪ to bring him in their arms , he still counterfeiting the sick man. When the holy Priest did see him , he commanded , and conjured him in the name of Almighty God , to declare who he was , and to what end he had thrust himself into that Noblemans service . The steward answered , and confessed he was the Devil , and that his end of serving that man was , to procure his destruction and damnation , which he had long before effected , had not the B. Virgin interposed herself , and interceeded to God , for his Conversion . of the cure ; they could not be mistaken , neither could they have any design in deceiving others by a fals information ; neither durst they or the Monk who writ the story , venter to abuse the whole Kingdom with such an imposture that could not be long concealed , or unpunished . So that this being the miracle wherupon Fox did fix , to disgrace all the rest , as also St. Thomas his sanctity ; I shall believe them all to be as authentick as any miracles need to be ; and as that which both in the French and English , profane and Ecclesiasticall Histories , is recorded , of the King of France his pilgrimage to St. Thomas his Shrine in Canterbury , for the recovery of his son Philips health ; in what despair the Father and all France were of his life by human remedies , is evident by his vndertaking so vnusual and dangerous a Iourney , as it was for a King , to put himself into the hands of his reconciled enemy , and of so powerfull a Monarch as K. Henry 2. But God that would have all the world take notice of St. Thomas his glory , and of the justice of his cause , disposed so things , that the most Christian King and Kingdom should be beholding to him for the life of the Heir apparent of the crown , who immediatly recovered , and the King ( to shew his gratitude for so great a benefit ) did give many Lands and privileges in France to the Monks of Canterbury ; all this was don in the yeare 1179. and but nine years after his Canonization . Miracles of Holy water . ST . Pasil testifieth that the vse and blessing of holy water is an Apostolical traditon ; neither can it be denyed if we consider these words of St. Alexander Pope , who but 50. years after St. Peter governed the Church . We bless water sprinkled with salt for the people , that all being sprinkled with it , may be sanctified and purified : which thing also we ordain as to be don of all Priests . For if the ashes of an Heifer being sprinkled with blood , did sanctify and cleans the people , much more water sprinkled with salt , and consecrated with divin prayers doth sanctify and cleans the people . And if by salt sprinkled by 〈◊〉 the profet , the barrenes of the water was healed , how much ●ore the same salt being consecrated with divin prayers , taketh 〈◊〉 the barrenes of human things , and sanctifieth those which 〈◊〉 defiled , and cleanseth and purgeth , and multiplieth other 〈◊〉 things , and turneth away the deceits of the devil , and ●●sendeth men from the craftines of the evil Ghost . For if by ●●●ching of the hemm of the garment of our savior we do not 〈◊〉 but that the diseased were cured ; how much more by the ●●ubt of his holy words or his elements consecrated , by which 〈◊〉 frailty doth receive health both of body and soul. Thus 〈◊〉 Alexander Pope and martyr in the first age of Christianity . ●hat is sayd of holy water , the same is applied by the ancient ●●hers to holy Oil , holy bread , holy Candells , holy Ashes , 〈◊〉 Palms , &c. Theodoret ( hist : l. 5. c. 21. ) telleth that 〈◊〉 dissolved inchantments by sprinkling of holy water , which 〈◊〉 ( saith Theodoret ) the Devil not induring the vertue of the ●●inkled water fled away . See also the like report made of ●●●charius by Palladius 〈◊〉 historia Lausiaca cap. 19. of miraculous 〈◊〉 wrough by holy water : see St. Gregory lib. 1. Dial. cap. 10. 〈◊〉 St. Bede lib. 4. hist. cap. 4. and Palladius cap. 9. & 20. and ●●●doret in his Theoph. cap. 13. of a memorable miracle don con●●●ding Church lights . Read Eusebius hist. lib. 6. cap. 8. S. 〈◊〉 2. lib. 1. contra haereses . haeres . 30. pag. 61. edit . Basil. 〈◊〉 how Josephus ( seing fire made unactive by enchantments , and 〈◊〉 from burning by witchcraft ) called for water , ( a world of 〈◊〉 being present ) made the sign of the Cross upon it , put his 〈◊〉 into the vessel of the blessed water , saying , In the name of ●●sus of Nazareth , whom my Fathers crucified , let there be vertue 〈◊〉 this water for the dissolving the charms don by these men . Then 〈◊〉 Epiphanius , he took some of the water in his hand , sprin●●●● the several enchanted Furnaces with it , & dissoluta sunt in●●●amenta , the witchcraft ceased , the fire burned , the people who 〈◊〉 the wonder , cryed aloud , One God there is , who helpes the Chri●●●●ns and so departed . Epiphanius cited in the precedent page relates an other miracle don by Ioseph , upon a possessed man. Ioseph , saith he , having shut the doores took water in his hands , blessed it with the sign of the Cross , besprinkled the raging man with it , commanded the Devil in the name of IESUS to be go● , and the possessed party was cured . This miracle ( saith Epiphanius ) the Iews knew , and great talk there was of it : some sayd Iosephus had opened the Gazophylacium , and finding there the name of God writ , did the wonder by force of this name ; It was true he did the miracle , but not as the Iews imagined . Thus St. Epiphanius . Of our Catholick Churches severe inquiry , discovery , and punishment of Counterfeits in this kind and al other sorts of miracles , our Adversaries give testimony : see Osianders epitom . Centur . 16. pag. 32. And the book intituled , Two Treatises , the first of the lives of Popes , &c. The second of Masse &c. also of fals miracles wherwith Mary de la Visitation Prioresse de la Anunciada of Lisbon , deceived very many , and was discovered and condemned , Englished and printed 1600. And see in the Addition in the end of that book , an other like discovery and punishment in Sevill of one Father . Lion. See also such an other Discovery of fals miracles in St. Thomas Moores dialogue of veneration of Images , Reliques , &c. l. 1. c. 14. so that our Catholick Bishops and Inquisitors are so far from contriving and concealing such practises , that they publish and punish them with extreme rigor . And this our sincerity in publishing fals miracles , is the only evidence Protestants have to say , that the true miracles are fals : for thus they argue against us : such a Nun , or Friars miracles and revelations were fals , as appeareth by our own discovery and punishment of the cheat ; therfore we have reason to suspect that none are true ; wheras if obstinacy did not prevail with them more then reason , they should have inferred , and believed the quite contrary conclusion . Madre Luisa de Charion notwithstanding her prediction to our late King Charles , that if he did not become a Roman Catholick , he should be the most vnfortunait Prince in the world , after some years of prosperity ; Notwithstanding I say , this , and many other predictions , her continual fasting , and seeming miracles , she was by the Jnquisition , kept in prison all her life , and never declared innocent , or free from illusions , vntill after her death , when God seemed to approve of her sanctity by vndeniable signs and testimonys . Miracles of the Sacrament of Confirmation . COnfirmation is a Sacrament of the new law , as sacred and holy ( saith St. Austin lib. 2. contra lit . Peril . c. 104. ) as Baptism it self : it is ministred vnto the baptized with the imposition of the hands of a Bishop , and the amoynting with holy Chrism . And therfore St. Vrban Pope and Martyr ( an . 227. ) in his letter to all Christians saith , All the faithfull ought to receive the holy Ghost after Baptism by the imposition of hands from a Bishop , that they may be found perfect Christians : becaus when the holy Ghost is infused , the faithfull heart is dilated to prudence and constancy . And an other Pope and Martyr ( Euseb. cp . ad Episcop . Tust . & Campan . ) The Sacrament of imposition of hands is to be had in great reverence , which cannot be don by any other but by the high Priests : neither is it read or known to have bin don by any other in the Apostles tyme , but by the Apostles themselves . And Tertullian ( de carni● resurrect . cap. 8. & in lib. de Bapt. ) alluding to the nature of oyl , wherwith we are anointed in the Sacrament , saith , the flesh is anointed that the soul may be consecrated ; the flesh is signed that the soul may me be fensed ; the flesh by imposition of hands is overshadowed , that the soul by the spirit may be illuminated . Hitherto Prelatick Protestants according to the 25. article of their 39. of Religion , contemned the holy Sacrament of Confirmation as superstitious , and corrupt following of the Apostles ; but since Episcopacy was cryed down in England by the Puritans they writ whole Treatises of the necessity and prayses of Confirmation , not so much ( I fear ) out of any devotion themselves have to that Sacrament , as to be end the people may bee devoted to their Episcopal caracter , it being granted that only Bishops can confirm Christians . Doctor Taylors Discours of Confirmation is an excellent Interlude all circumstances considered ; He proves the necessity and holines of Confirmation , contrary to the 25. article of his faith ; then he proves that only true Bishops can confirm ; whence some , say it followes that his Protestant Episcopacy is not for that purpose . 3. he pretends that the Jesuits ( though he knowe the contrary ) are enemies to this holy Sacrament . The question between Doctor Smith Bishop of Calcedon , and them was , not whether Confirmation were not necessary when it might be had conveniently ; but whether it were so absolutly necessary for salvation , that the Catholicks of England ought to bring vpon themselves new persecutions for maintaining and harbouring a Bishop in that Kingdom to confirm them . And Taylor approves ( pag. 66. ) the same by saying that Confirmation is not absolutly necessary for salvation . 4. It is ridiculous to see how Doctor Taylor quotes Authors and books for Confirmation , that in all other points of doctrin , he rejects as vnworthy of credit : amongst others a book of miracles wherof he believeth not one ; the old Ordo Roman●●● ( pag. 24. ) St. Iohn Damasc●n . ( pag. 76. ) Melchiades Pope ( pag. 44. ) the Apostolical Constitutions ( pag. 16. ) which in other matters he rejects as apocryphal ; Rupertus , ( pag. 4. who in any thing not favouring Episcopacy Taylor contemn● as a Novice ▪ and too modern ; St. Bernard the Monk , and St. Malachias ▪ the Bishop , two acknowledged Papists 5. He is much troubled to see that these Authors call Confirmation a Sacrament ; and knows not how to English Sacramentum ; at last he resolves to translate it Rite ; and therfore these latin words of the Ordo Romanus which he sets down pag. ( 24. ) Omnino praecavendum esse ut hoc Sacramentum Confirmationis non negligatur , the Bishop doth English thus ; we must by all means take heed that the Rite of Confirmation be not neglected . And ( pag. 5. ) he saith St. Bernard in the life of St. Malachias , my Prodecessor in the See of Down and Connot , reports that it was the care of that Good Prelat to renew the rite of Confirmation in his Diocess . Seing Protestants with Doctor Taylor , value so much the testimony and faith of St. Bernard , let them see how he condemned all their opinions against the Roman Catholick faith as heresys in the Petrobusians , Henricians , and Apostolici , and then I hope they will acknowledge their error , in not tolerating Popery . St. Bernard , doth relate in the life of St. Malachias ( whose Successor Doctor Taylor is not , either in caracter or Doctrin ) that he cured a lunatick child in confirming him with the sacred vnction . A miracle ( saith Holinshead ) seen and confessed by many hundreds of people , and therupon blown through the world . St. Optatus ( l. 2. contra Donatistas ) reporteth how the heretick threw out of the window ( ampullam Chrismatis ) a viall of Chrisme , holy oyl , to the intent to break it , the which being stayd by an Angels hand , God preserved , and did light safe among the stones . A Miracle of the Sacrament of Extreme vnction . OF the Sacrament of Exteeme vnction St. Austin giveth this testimony . So often as any infirmity chanceth , let him that is sick receive the body and blood of Christ ; and after that let him annoint his body , that , that which is written ( Iac. 5.14 . ) may be accomplished in him . Is any sick ? let him bring in the Priests , and let them pray over him , annointing him with oyl in the name of our Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sicke ▪ And our Lord shall lift him vp : and if he be in sins , they shall be remitted him . I doubt Doctor Taylor and his prelatick Convocation will not allow in this controversy of Extreme Vnction , the testimony of St. Malacly to be as pious as they did in the former of Confirmation . And if you ask the cause , they can give no other , but that their Episcopacy is not so much concerned in maintaining extreme Vnction , as Confirmation ; We shall notwithstanding , relate St. Bernards words , and St. Malachias work , and desire Doctor Taylor to let us know why he thinks the testimony of one , and the example of the other to be more credibles , and imitable in the point of Episcopacy , then in other articles of Christian doctrin . A noble man ( saith St. Bernard in vita Malachiae ) dwelled neere the Monastery of Benchor , whose wife being sick , Malachias was requested to anoyl her , which was deferred till morning ; afterwards a sudden outcry being made that she was dead , Malachias came , and when he certainly found that she was dead , he was greatly troubled in mind , imputing the falt to himselfe , that she dyed defrauded of the grace of the Sacrament , and lifting vp his hands to heaven sayd , I beseech thee o Lord ( &c. ) what more ! she that was dead opend her eyes ( &c. ) and Malachias giving thanks praysed God , and anointed her , Knowing sins to be remitted in this Sacrament . Miracles of the Sacrament of Confession . IT is written ( Act. 19.18 . ) that many of those ( primitive Christian ) that belived , came confessing and declaring their deeds . Therfore St. Austin sayth to some who thaught it not necessary to confess their sins to Priests , Do ye penance such as is don in the Church , that the Church may pray for you . Let no man say within himself I do it in secret , J do it before God alone : God who pardoneth me , knoweth that I do in my heart . Was it therfore sayd in vain , whatsoever you shall loos in earth , shall be loosed in Heaven ? Were the keys given to the Church of God in vain ? Do we frustrat the Ghospel of God ? Do we frustrat the words of Christ ? Do we promise you that which he denyeth ? Do we deceive you ? And in an other place , there are ( saith he ) that do think it sufficient for their salvation , if they confess theire sins to God alone , vnto whom nothing is hidden , and every mans conscience lieth open : For they will not , or they are ashamed , or they disdain to shew themselves vnto Priests : Whom yet our Lord hath by Moyses ordained to discern between leper and leper . But J wil not have thee deceived with this opinion , and be ashamed therby to confess them vnto the Vice-gerent of our Lord , either languishing with ●hamfastnes , or stiffnecked with indignation . For , of reason in like manner must we admit him for our Judge , which our Lord doth not disdain to be his Vicar . St. Cyprian saith , I beseech you my brethren , every one to confess his sin whilst yet he that sinneth remaineth in this world , whilst his confession may be admitted , whilst every mans satisfaction and remission given by the Priests , is acceptable vnto our Lord. St. Basil the great saith , Jt is judged necessary that sins be confessed vnto those to whom is committed the dispensation of the mysteries of God : for so the very penitents of ancient times are found to have confessed their sins vnto holy men . Sundry miracles wrought by God to confirm our Catholick doctrin of the Sacrament of Confession every one may read in Joannes Climacus grad . 4. in S. Petrus Damian . in ep . ad Desiderium . In Petrus Cluniac . lib. 1. de Mirac . cap. 3.4.5 . & 6. J will relate one or two out of S. Bede , of whom Fox ( pag. 165. ) sayes ; As touching the holines and integrity of his life it is not to be doubted : And saith of his learning ( ibid. ) so notable and famous was the learning of Bede , that the Church of Rome both stood in need of his help , and also required the same , about the discussing of certain controversies apperaining to learning . Moreover the whole Latin Church at that tyme , gave him the mastery in Iudgment and knoweldge of the holy Scriptures . And yet this holy Man who was such a Master in all learning , and Scripture , in his history of the Church of England , recounts Miracles either seen by himself , or so credibly reported that he ( being of so sound a Judgment as Fox confesseth ) beleived and writ them for authentik , to confirm every point of our doctrin wherin we differ from Protestants . Let us hear one of Confession . In the time of Conrede ( saith St. Bede . l. 5. c. 14. hist. ) who reigned after King Edilrede , there was a certain Captain in great favor with the King , for his valor , but careless of his soul. Wherfore the King often admonished him to make humble confession of his sins , and amend his life , least by deaths sudain prevention he might loos time of repentance ; but he , notwithstanding this gentle admonition of his Souveraign , deferred his confession . In the mean time being visited with sicknes , the King came to his Chamber ( for he loued him tenderly ) and exhorted him that at the least now he would confess before he died , No , quoth he , J will not be confessed now , but when J am well recovered I will , least if I should now do it , my fellows would say that I did that for feare of death , which I did not in health . When the King came the next day to visit him , and give him good councel , he cryed out incontinent , with a pitiful and lamentable voice , saying : Alas , what mean you Sir , why come you hither ? you are not able to do me any good . The King answered , say not so , see ye play the wise mans part . Nay , saith he J do not rave , but J have here before mine eyes a wicked conscience all wounded and mangled . And what is the matter , sayd the King ; A litle before you came , quoth he , two beautifull yong men came in and sate down by me , one at my head , the other at my feet ; and one of them took a fine book out of his bosom , but litle in quantity , and gave it me to read : Jn the which when I looked a litle while , I found all the good deeds that ever I had don fair written ; and God knoweth they were few in number , and little in effect ▪ when I had don , they took the book of me again , and sayd nothing . Then sudenly came there about me a whole legion of wicked spirits , and besieged the hous round about , and sitting down , replenished every corner within . Then he that for his foul face and highest seat appeared to be greatest among them , taking , out a book terrible to all mens sight , vnmeasurable for greatnes and for weight importable , commanded one of his black guard to bring it to me to read . When I read a litle I found all the enormous detestable sins that ever I had committed , not only in word and deed , but also in thought , written there in great black letters : and he said to the two faire yong men that sate by me , why sit you here , knowing most certainly that this fellow is ours ? They answered , True it is , take him and lead him away to the bottomless pit of damnation ; and with that they vanished away . Immediatly two wicked spirits having fier-pronges in their hands , rose vp , and struck me one in the head and the other in the sole of my feet , the which now with great torment and anguish creep vp into the bowels , and other internal parts of my body , and when they meet together J shal dy , and be drawn hence by the Devils into Hell without redemption . Thus spake that miserable man lying in extreme desperation , and so dyed out of hand . Jt is evident ( saith St. Bede ) hee had not these visions for his own sake , whom they availed nothing at all , but for other men , who knowing his lamentable end might be afraid to differr , and prolong the time of Repentance , while they have opportunity and leasure . In the next Chapter ( cap. 15. l. 5. ) St. Bede tells of an other damned for differring his confession , thus . I my self ( saith Bede ) Knew a Religious man ( whom would to God I had never known ) placed in a good and famous Monastery ; notwithstanding he himself , was infamous for his lewd behavior , and loos life . I could tell his name also , if it were worth the telling . This man was earnestly rebuked of his brethren and Superiors of the Monastery , for his enormities , and exhorted to a better trade of life , but all in vain , &c. But as men are wont to say , He that will not come of his own accord within the Church-door , shall run against his will to hell gates , this man being now struck with a very faint diseas , and brought to extremity , called all the Convent about him , and with much lamentation and deep sighs , like a man already damned , began to declare vnto them , that he saw hell gates open , and the devil drouned in a deep dungeon therof and Caiphas and the whole rablement that put Christ to death , cast in flaming fier , hard by him : and next to them ( O miserable and wretched man that I am , said he ) I see a place of eternall perdition prepared for me , The brethren hearing these wofull words , exhorted him earnestly to repent and be sorry for his sins while he was yet alive . Then he ( brought to extreme despair ) answered , no , no : There is no , time for me to amend my former life , especially seing I perceive my judgment is past , and fully compleated already . With these words he dyed without receiving the Sacrament . His body was interred in the farmost part of all the Abby ; not one of all the whole Convent durst Say Mass for his soul , nor sing Psalms , nor once say , one Pater noster for him . This chanced of late in the Country of the Bernician● ▪ ( Northumberland ) and was blazed all the Country over : So , that it stired vp many to make quick Confession of their sinfull acts , and not to take days with God. Which God grant it may work also in such as shall read this present story . Hitherto St. Bede , who lived above nine hundred yeares ago . Thus much of ancient miracles in confirmation of Popery , some whereof were seen , others so vndoubtedly beleived by the greatest Saints and Doctors of Gods Church , that they judged them worthy of being recorded in their writings , to the end posterity might , by giving them credit , take for divin the doctrin which they confirmed . We do not recurr to the primitiye Fathers and times for miracles , out of any want of the like in our dayes , every where now some are so visible , that only foolish Atheism , or obstinacy can deny their supernaturality ; we mention the ancient miracles and Fathers for two reasons . 1. To prove that our doctrin is the same , with theirs , and confirmed by the like miracles . 2. To convict our Adversaries of obstinacy by their denial , or contempt of the testimony of the holy Doctors and Catholick Church in such things as their spirit doth not fancy ; and yet they do admit the same testimony as sufficient and Obligatory in such points of Christianity , as themselves think necessary or convenient for their own reformations , and interpretations of Scripture . It is ridiculous to see how Calvin ( ex . gr . ) presseth and wresteth the authority of St. Austin for some parts of his doctrin , and how he sleighteth the same when that holy Doctor speaks against it . To draw St. Austin to countenance the error against freewill : I will relate St. Austin ( saith Calvin ) in his own words , and then quoteth his words thus : Primam fuisse libertatem posse non peccare , nostram multo majorem non posse peccare . Wheras the St. Speakes in that pl●ce of our happines in heaven where we shall not be able to sin , and preferres it before the liberty Adam had in Paradise of being able not to sin : his words are , Prima libertus voluntatis erat posse peccare , novissima erit multo major , non posse peccare . Prima immortalitas &c. Here Calvin corrupts the words ; insteed of St. Austins Novissima , he puts in , nostra ; then leaves out erit , with many other words which made clear St. Austins speech and meaning of the liberty we shall have in heaven ; but Calvin makes him speak of our liberty here vpon earth ; and is so inconsiderat as to reprehend grievously the Master of the Sentences for following St. Austins sence according to the text . But when St. Austins authority is vrged against him in favor of the Mass , praier for the dead , and Purgatory , and particularly how carefull he was to have Mass sayd for the soul of his Mother St. Monica , that desired him at her death , to remember her in his Sacrifice of the Altar , Calvin saith , it was but an old wives request which her son never examined according to the Scriptures , and after his own privat affection would have the same approved by others . As Calvin Luther and all , the first Protestant Reformers contemn the Catholick Churches authority in matters of doctrin , when it is contrary to their new interpretations , and extravagant fancies of Scripture , so do they and their Successors in that of miracles ; Jf any Miracles be recounted that confirm the mysteries which Protestants reject , though delivered by the same Author , and in the same book , they must needs be old wives tales , not duly examined &c. And yet the foolish and fals stories of such a frantick and crackt-braind fellow as Iohn Fox was known to be , and his Acts and Monuments shew him to have bin , are credited by persons that have no other ground to beleive his fables and follies but their education in Protestancy , and aversion to Popery : His lies and simple storyes must pass for a true Ecclesiastical History , notwithstanding that they are contradicted by all the Histories of the world , and that many of his Martyrs were found , following their trades , after that he had described their torments , and deaths very particularly , and patheticaly : his miracles in confirmation of protestancy ( and indeed his whole book ) are so ridiculous , that I admire some Protestant zealots , if they would have the reformation be thought a Religion , do not suppress or reform the work . He tells for a stupendious miracle , that a stone fell from a ruinous building vpon Luthers stool , after he had bin eased , or weary of sitting vpon it . An other , that a multitude of German Clowns , debauched Clergy men , and libertins , embraced Luthers reformation , it being so indulgent to liberty , sensuality and vice ; and that the Bishop of Rome , and other Catholick Prelates Censures did not stop the violent cours and Torrent of their pervers inclinations . He makes dreams revelations , Merchants Expounders of the Apocalyps ; and not to seem partial , how himself was made a fool by revelation . But in steed of suppressing or correcting Fox his foolish Acts and Monuments , the Protestant Clergy have reprinted that book divers times , since his death , with new comments , chronologies , and great commendations of the work ; every Parish Church is to have one , and few privat families will endure the want of so great a spiritual treasure . And though the Bishops know it is not only a very absurd piece , but also the chief thing that makes , Puritanism , and Presbytery spread , and so popular in England , yet becaus it persuades the simple and vulgar sort , that Popery is idolatry , they countenance a book so prejudicial to themselves . Our Catholick miracles are of a different nature , and not related by such lying foolish fellows as Fox , but by the greatest Saints , and wisest men of Gods Church ; men so much esteemed for their vertue , learning , and judgment that Protestants themselves are ashamed to vndervalue their testimony in matters of faith , and ( a fortiori ) ought to beleive them in matters of fact , if they intend to believe any thing at all that is not mentioned particularly in Scripture : I say particularly , because Christ our Saviour assured us in generall , ( as our Adversaries confess ) that miracles should continue in the Church forever , as signs of the true belief ( Marc. 16. 20. Ioan. 14.12 . 2. Cor. 12.12 . The Conclusion . I have sayd as much as I think necessary for the information and instruction of such Protestants as desire to know the truth , and do not find my conscience guilty of any one falsification in this whole Treatise : And truly it were a great absurdity in me to commit wittingly that crime which J so much cry down in others . Such mistakes as have crept into the printed book , will J hope , he attributed to the Printer , or Transcriber : I am sure I have bin so diligent in examining the quotations and assertions pro and con the Catholick cause , that want of care cannot be objected ; and if there be no want of sufficiency in the work , that commendation is not due to me , but to the goodnes and evidence of the cause I maintain . For , what acutenes of wit is requisit to defend a Religion that never was impugned but by persons so leud , and vnreasonable , that at the very first appearance of their opposition , they were condemned as hereticks by the whole visible Church that then was ? What profundity of judgment can be thought necessary to demonstrat that the ancient primitive letter and sense of Scripture ought to be preferred before the Devils interpretation therof embraced by Luther ; or before any new Canon and fancies of the like debauched fryers and Priests ? What litle learning is not more then sufficient to discover so palpable frauds and falsifications as the Protestant Writers practise , to make their Reformations seem agreable , to Gods word ? What Erudition is so mean that doth not surpass the history of one age , or of Protestancy ; a Religion so lately sprung vp , and raysed from the pride , ambition , liberty , and lewdnes of the first reformers , and confined to the Northern parts of this least part of the world ? How can such a Religion be Catholick either in length of time , extent of Territories , or Conversion of Nations ? Jts true that for the space of 100. yeares England hath bin so blind as not to see such gross errors ; but this misfortune was occasioned by their fondnes of Q. Elizabeth ; to make good her title to the Crown they separated themselves from the communion of the Church ; and when her interest vanished with her death , and for want of posterity , few were living after her long reign , that observed the motives of her reformation ; most Englishmen beleived the changes she made , had no relation to her illegitimacy , but proceeded from pure zeal of the Ghospell . Her new Clergy both then , and eversince , have endeavored to confirm the people in that persuasion , by falsifying Scripture , Councells , and Fathers ; but the discovery of the frauds , and the principles of Protestancy practised against the late innocent King , have opend the eyes of many to discern the flaws of the Reformation , and the fallacies of their own education ; And now that it is as much the concern of the whole Nation to tolerat the Roman Catholick faith , as it was Q. Elizabeths interest to change it into protestancy , I doubt not but that every particular persons ease in the addition of a revenue to the publick , will excite both conscience and curiosity to examin , whether the prelatick Religion and Clergy of England , have not more of human invention , then of divin institution ? And if after perusing this Treatise , and proposing the arguments and instances therof to their learned Ministery , no satisfactory answer can be given to the particulars wherwith their doctrin and function is charged , to what purpose should men continue in mistakes so damnable to the soul , and dangerous to the state ? But if the Protestant Clergy can divert the Layty from entertaining any thoughts of curiosity , or scruples of conscience in order to the examination of this matter of so great importance , and can make them believe that K. Henry 8. passion to Ann Bullen was a just cause to introduce the Reformation , and to assume the Supremacy ; or that the Earle of Hartfords ambition of being absolutly Protector of England , ( quite contrary to K. Henry 8. Testament , and to his own Oath of not assuming any power above his Collegues and Tutors of K. Edward 6. ) was a divin inspiration to bring in Zuinglius his Sacramentarian Religion into the Realm ; or that the Duke of Northumberlands poysoning the yong King , and excluding the next and lawfull heirs from the Crown , to conferr it vpon his own own son and the Lady Iane Grey ( pretending therby to promote his new Zuinglian Ghospell ) was the work of the holy Ghost : Or that Q. Elizabeths murther of the Q. of Scots , and her Parliaments Decrees and endeavors to preferr any natural issue of her body to this Empire , before the legitimat and immediat Heirs , the Stevards ( and therby to continue her prelatick Protestancy ) were things lawfull according to the principles of Christianity , and Catholick faith ; If the Protestant Clergy I say can persuade the layty , that all this was lawfull , and agreable to the doctrin which Christ and his Apostles did preach , either they have an abundance of wit , or they that believe them very litle judgment . A great wit maintained that they may as well make Mahomets Alcoran a plausible Religion in England , and gain therby as great revenues as they do by their Reformation , and Protestant Scripture , wherof neither the Canon , letter , or sense is that which God delivered to his Church , as heretofore hath bin proved . I do not speak in rallery ( sayd the gentlemen ) but seriously , when I say that men who believe the Protestant Religion to be true , may be induced by the same persons and the like reasons , to believe that Mahometisme is the true Religion . This hath also bin solidly proved by Doctor Reynolds in his Calvino-Turcismus : and by others also when they demonstrat that Calvinism and Turcism agree in the principall points ; and every one knows that the doctrin of the 39. articles , of the Church of England , is the quintessence of Calvins doctrin , and was by him applauded , though he said that ( as to Point of disciplin ) there were many tolerable fooleries in in that Church and Lyturgy . But let us pursue the Gentlemans parallel of Mahomet and his doctrin , with our English Reformers and their doctrin , and we shall plainly see , that there is as much reason to believe Mahometism , as prelatick Protestancy ; and that both these Religious were planted , and propagated by the same means ; nay that it is more to be admired how our Countreymen became Protestants , then the Arabians , or Armenians became Turcks . When Mahomet began to preach his doctrin in the East , Christianity ( there ) was so discredited , ( by being divided into sects , and into so many heresies of Arians , Manichees , Nestorians &c. ) that men were disposed ( by that diversity of opinions ) to follow any new Religion ; especialy that of Mahomet , becaus he borrowed something from every Sect ; and as the 39. Articles of the Church of England agree in some fundamental points with Catholicks , and also with hereticks , so Mahomet agreeth in the worship of one God with Iews and Chri●tians ; and in the doctrin and worship of Christ , he comes at ●eer to Christianity as most Arians , and Nestorians , or the Antitrinitarian Protestants of Hungary , Poland &c. nay as Bp. Morton , and some other Prelaticks . But when Luther in Germany , and Cranmer in England began Protestancy , all the west and Latin Church agreed in the Roman Catholick faith ; no other Religion was regarded ; and the ●emnants of Wickleff and Hus , were hissed out of the world , at least were nothing so considerable any where , as the above mentioned heresies had bin in the East , when Mahomet began there to preach his Alcoran . So that if heresy , or apostacy can have any excuse , Mahometism in its begining was more excusable then Protestancy , by reason of the more considerable divisions that then were among Christians in matters of doctrin , then when Luther began his Reformation . Now let us come to particular reflexions vpon both . Mahomet retained some parts of Scripture as well as Protestants ; and had as good grounds to reject what he did not fancy of the letter and sense therof , as Protestants have to be choosers of their own Canon , and interpretation . Mahomet gives as many rules of Morality as Protestants ; and though he allows of many wives , Protestants do the same ; with this only difference ; that Mahomet says t is lawfull to keep many at once ; Protestants say you must keep but one at a time , and that you cannot have the variety of wives men so much desire , without the formality of a divorce ; how litle is requisit for the validity and legality of Protestant divorces , we have proved heretofore by the authority and principles of the first Reformers , and the dayly practises of their Successors . In all other things Mahomets sect is more austere , in fasting , praying , abstaining from wine &c. then Protestancy . And becaus both agree in the incoherency , and absurdity of their principles , both also agree in planting , propagating , and defending their doctrin not by miracles , or rational arguments , but by force , and sanguinary statuts . And this is the reason why Catholicks are as litle permitted to dispute , or reason for the Roman Religion in these Kingdoms , as Christians in Turky ; and Priests are as much perseeuted for writing books of Controversies , as Printers and Stationers and severely punished . Thus much as to the paralell of both doctrins . But If we compare their persons , or vertues , we shall find that Mahomet was an honester man , and deserved more credit then Luther , Calvin , Cranmer , or any of the first Protestant Reformers . He never was baptized , at least never professed any Religion , vntill he composed his own , with the help of an Arian Monk ; but all the first Reformers had first professed the Catholick faith , which afterwards they renounced , pretending that God had forsaken his Church for many ages ; and presumed to say that he had authorised and inspired them to reform ( without shewing any warrant ) that doctrin vnto which their betters in learning , vertue , and judgment actualy submitted , as vnto the true Catholick , and themselves also had embraced as such , vntill their pride and lust prevailed against their conscience . Mahomet married a Widdow , and had made no vows not to marry ; the first Reformers married Nuns , and themselves also were votaries , Calvin only excepted ; but his incontinency was no less scandalous , and notorious , then theirs ; having lived in adultery with a Gentlewoman of Mongis , that left her husband at Lansan●● to enjoy Calvins Company at Geneva : who attempted also to commit the like sin with the Lady ●ollande of Bredrode , wise to a sickly Nobleman called Iames Borgongue Lord of Fallaise ; in so much as she persuaded her husband to leave Geneva , and go to Lansan●● , where she revealed the whole matter . Mahomet t is true was a Cheat , but a mere cunning cheat then Luther , Calvin , or Cranmer , &c. for by his Dove , or fitts of the falling sickness he made people believe that the holy Ghost appeared and inspired to him the Alcoran ; but the Protestant Reformers had not so much to shew for their new doctrin , Canon , Translations , and their new sense of Scripture . Mahomet was constant to his principles ; the Protestant Parliament and Reformers were as changable as the times , and humors of the giddy people ; and therfore may with more reason then the Turks give the Moon crescent for the Crest of their Religions , as Catholicks do the Cross. Here in England they changed with Henry 8. the Roman faith for Articles of Religion devised by the Kings Majesty . As soon as he dyed they changed that faith into Zuinglianism , to comply with the Protector Somerset ; within two or three years after they changed Zuinglianism into Calvinianism , at the suit of Calvin , and reformed the Liturgy accordingly . After K. Edward 6. death they returned with Q. Mary to the old faith . With Q. Elizabeth they restored the new , but with some alterations . When K. James succeeded they changed their Translations of Scripture and other things . In K. Charles 1. time , prelatick Protestancy was pulled down by Presbytery , this by Independency &c. Prelatick Protestancy being restored again by K. Charles 2. the formes of Ordination ( wherupon depend the validity of the prelatick Ministery , Church , and Sacraments ) were not thought sufficient , and therfore are now changed into more Catholick forms ; and therby all is left doubtfull , and changeable ; for if the Church of England acknowledgeth to have erred in a thing of so great importance , what assurance can it have of not erring in all the rest ? In a word , Protestants in this one Kingdom , and in this one age , have made mo●● changes of Religions , then Mahometans in the ten ages they have continued , and in the greatest part of the world which they have conquered . These things maturely considered , makes Mahometism , as probable a Religion as the best kind of Protestancy , and therfore it would be no great wonder , if they who believe the Protestant and Prelatick Clergy , and take their word and fancies for true Scripture and Christianity , should alter their belief vpon the change of that Clergys testimony ; acknowledging that hitherto they had bin mistaken , ( which they may confess at any time becaus their Church is acknowledged fallible ) and that now they find the Turks have the true faith , for that they reject all such books of Scripture , as any Christians ever doubted of ( and that as lawfully as the pretended apocrypha , are rejected by Protestants vpon the same ground ) and likewise believe all Protestant fundamental points necessary for salvation , seing they believe of Christ as much as Arians , Socinians , and Chillingworth with his Sect of wits ; nay as much as the moderat and modern Prelatick writers , who say , that it is sufficient to believe Christ is the word and son of God , which Mahomet never denyed . If any Mahumetan Prince could pretend a title to this British Monarchy , ( with probability of prevailing ) why may not we think he would find the Protestant Clergy as ready to comply with his Religion , ( therby to secure their own , and promote his interest ) as they were ready to change the Catholick and legal Religion , which was professed in Q. Maries time , for complying with Q. Elizabeth , and fortifying her weak title against the legitimat and vndoubted Heirs ? All things weighed , there is less difference between Mahumetism and prelatick Protestancy , then between prelatick Protestancy and Popery ; for that Popery and Protestancy agree only in the name of Christianity , in the motive and manner of faith , they differ , and in the ground therof , as also in the Canon , letter , and Sense of Scripture ; but Mahumetism and Protestancy though they agree not in the letter of Scripture , ( Protestants admitting into their Canon more books therof then the Turks ) yet they both agree in the rule of Religion , ( though not in the application , ) as also in the rule wherby their Canon and sense of Scripture is discerned , which is , every mans privat judgment in controverted matters ; in that point which is not controverted , ( to wit , one Deity ) the consent and concurrence of the generality of the world , or evident reason , is the foundation as well of Mahumetism as of protestancy ; as also in the point of the immortality of the soul. Therfore I see no impossibility or improbability ( said this great wit ) why Mahumetism may not in time be made the Religion of these Nations , without violating the principles , or altering the grounds of Protestancy , and the prelatick Clergy be as much applauded , and rewarded for the one change as for the other : The greatest obstacle is , that no Mahumetan Prince can pretend a title ( even such as Q. Elizabeths was ) to the Crown . God almighty deliver us from so great evils , and open the eyes of them that do not see the precipices wherunto their souls are led by such principles ; and grant the learned prelatick Clergy grace to prefer truth before falshood , conscience before conveniency , and eternity before the few days which they are to enjoy Benefices , and Bishopricks . But in case they do not ( for fear of loosing their credit and conveniences ) recant their errors . J hope the Protestant Layty will have so much curiosity as to examin whether it be possible that so many Catholick Authors as have written books of Controversies , should damn and discredit themselves , by forging and feigning Protestant frauds and falsifications , quoting the very places and pages where they are to be found ; affirming that without such practices , protestancy cannot be maintained ; to examin I say whether we Catholicks can be so wicked and witless , as to accuse men of such grievous crimes without hopes of any honor , or profit to our selves , but rather with a certainty of an immediat discovery of our impostures . If this one thing be maturely considered , the Protestant Layty and their vnlearned Clergy that rely so much vpon the sufficiency and sincerity of Cranmer , Jewel , Fox , Morton , Andrews , Whitaker , Fulk , Perkins , Vsher , Laud , Abbots , Chillingworth , Bramhall , Cosins , Hamond , Taylor , &c. will believe us , or at least examin , and certainly find most palpable vnexcusable corruptions and contradictions in every one of their own Authors books composed against the Roman doctrin , and conclude with us , that Piety and Policy is mistaken in promoting Protestancy , and persecuting Popery , and that a good revenue , may be conscientiously setled ( if legaly demanded ) vpon the Crown ; and vpon the poor soldiers , and seamen that defend these nations against forreign invasions , and rebellious insurrections : Seing the Pope and his Roman Catholick Clergy , in all likelihood , will be content to resign their right and interest in the Church revenues to his Majesty , as they did in the like occasion to Q. Mary , who notwithstanding the tendernes of her conscience , was satisfied there could be no scruple of Sacriledge in applying ( with consent of the true owners ) ecclesiastical livings to pious and publick vses . And now I hope I may conclude this Treatise with humbly desiring a Conference or examination of Protestant and Catholick books , at least of one for each side ; let the quotations of Doctor Taylors Dissuasive be viewed , and that book or any other writ against the Roman Religion , stand for the Protestants sincerity , t is like he writ nothing carelesly , or rashly , his declared drift being to make a whole Nation Protestants , and professing himself to be only Amanuensis to a prelatick Convocation of reformed Bishops , which in his Preface he compares with that Assembly of the Apostles wherin choyce was made of Iudas his Successor , and sayes the lot of St. Mathias fell vpon himself , and that some other like himself was Barnabas the just . Jf this holy Convocation of Protestant Apostles should set forth a Book that hath more lyes then leaves , I hope men may advise their friends to consider whether a Religion that cannot be maintained but by such men and means , and a Clergy that practiseth such frauds and falsifications , ought to be preferred before a Religion and Clergy that not only professeth ( as all others do ) to write truth , but presseth to come to a publick trial therof in a ●egall way ; and rather then fail herein , are content , that the controversy be decided by them , that are known to be most zealously devoted to Protestancy . I do not instance Bp. Taylors Dissuasive from Popery for the Trial , as if his falsifications to maintain Protestancy were more numerous , or more enormous then those of other writers that have defended the same cause . No. He is more wa●y then many , and more moderat then most of his predecessors , or equalls . But I instance his book to give my adversaries all the advantages that the learning of the Author and the Authority of a Convocation can afford . Jf they have a better opinion of the sufficiency of Bishop Jevell , then of Bp. Taylor , they may fix rather vpon his Apology for the Church of England , then vpon Doctor Taylors Dissuasive from Popery , authorized by the Church of Ireland . To Jevells Apology we oppose Harding , Stapleton , and Rastalls Answers ; To Taylors Dissuasive , Worsley , Lengar , and Sergeants Annotations . But if they refuse this offer , as pointing but at two particular Doctors of their Church , let them be pleased to have the truth of their Reformation , and the sincerity of their whole Clergy examined by answering to the frauds and falsifications wherwith I charge their whole Church , and calling , in this book . FINIS . The Summe of this Treatise Containing the Substance of every Section . THE FIRST PART . Containing the Matter of Fact of the Beginning , Progress , Principles , and effects of Protestancy . SECTION I. HOw necessary a rational religion is for a peaceable government , and wherin doth the reasonableness of Religion consist . How dangerous for a temporal Soveraign to pretend a spiritual supremacy over his subjects . Heathen Princes durst not assume it without a persuasion in their subjects that it was due by descent from some Deity , or that the Gods signified their approbation therof by prodigies and miracles . The great Turk , notwithstanding his tyranny , thinks it not policy to pretend a spiritual jurisdiction over his subjects , though slaves . The ground of policy piety and peace consists in establishing by law a Religion confirmed by miracles : that such a Religion will make the Prince powerfull and popular , the Prelats respected , the people willing to obey and pay taxes . It takes away all pretexts of rebellion vpon the score of a tenderness of conscience . How necessary it is for the Government to have a devout Clergy , and that Clergy at the Soveraigns devotion , and Some of them emploied in State affairs . Therby all disputes between the spirituall and temporall jurisdictions are prevented . With how much reason Statesmen dread such disputes . For the space of 1500. years the Catholick world believed that the Bishop of Rome had the supreme spiritual jurisdiction over souls , as being Christ's Vicar vpon earth : and that only such as were of his Communion , and vnder his obedience , were members of the Catholick Church : and therfore the Greeks for exempting the Bishop of Constantinople and themselves from that obedience , were declared Schismaticks : others were condemned as Hereticks for teaching and professing doctrin contrary to the Roman . Both the doctrin and authority of the Roman Bishops and Clergy , hath been confirmed by vndeniable true miracles , even here in England . Jt was held to be the only Catholick doctrin in St. Gregory the great his time . That faith which wee Roman Catholicks now profess is the same ( in every particular ) with that of St. Gregory , and of all Orthodox Christians of his time , and for confirmation wherof true miracles have been wrought . SECT : II. OF the Author and beginning of Protestancy . The first Preacher therof was Martin Luther an Augustin Friar ; who from his youth had bin lianted by the Devil , and presumed to have bin possessed . He resolved to preach and write against the Mass , praying to Saints , and other Catholick Tenets , after that the Devil had appeared to him , and convinced him by Protestant arguments . How weakly the Protestant writers endeavour to excuse Luthers disputation , instruction and familiarity with the Devil . Others acknowledge it and maintain that the Devils doctrin ought to be believed when it agrees with the Protestant interpretation of Scripture , that is , with every privat interpretation contrary to the sense of the whole visible Church . How much it is against piety and policy to make the Protestant , or any other privat interpretation of Scripture , the Religion of the State , or to preferr it before that of the Church , and of the holy ancient Fathers , quoted subsect . 1. & passim . SECT : III. OF the principles ad propagation of Protestancy . How Luther begun his reformation by gaining Poets , Players , Painters , and Printers , to discredit by their Poems , Pamphlets , pictures and ballads , the Roman Catholick Religion , and its Clergy . How he drew also many dissolute Friars and Priests to his side , and married nine of them to so many Nuns in one day , taking also one to himself . How he made his reformation plausible to Libertins by teaching that only Faith was necessary for Salvation , without troubling themselves with good works : and popular , by preaching that no Christian ought to be subject to an other , and how therupon the Clowns , and Tenants of Germany rebelled against their Princes and Landlords . The three fundamental principles of Protestancy are . 1. That for many ages the whole visible Church had bin in damnable errors , and so continued vntill Luthers reformation . 2. That there is no rule of faith but Scripture as Protestants are pleased to interpret it . 3. That men are justified by only faith . How from these principles have issued innumerable Protestant Religions contrary one to the other . Luther did see his own reformation divided into 130. disagreing sects of Protestants . None could ever prove there was one true miracle wrought to confirm the Protestants doctrin , or their pretended authority for reforming the Tenets of the Roman Catholick Church ; Protestants are forced to say that miracles are ceased , and that ours are Diabolical or counterfeit . Because no true Bishops were Protestants , and by consequence they could have no Priests ordained , and so their Priesthood must have perished after the death of the first Apostatas Luther and others , the Protestant reformers and Churches taught , that all Christians are Priests both men and women : and this doctrin is supposed to be true by the Church of England in their 39. articles , and in the Act of Parliament 8. Eliz. 1. SECT : IV. OF the Protestant Prelatick Church of England . The occasion of K. Henry the 8. divorce from Q. Catharin , and of his revolt from the Church of Rome , was his passion to An Bullen : the words of S. Iohn Baptist to Herod , concerning his brothers wife , absurdly applyed to K. Henrys marriage , with his Brothers widdow . How zealously he had formerly maintained the Popes supremacy : how cruelly he afterwards persecuted the professors therof ; and how impiously he judged S. Thomas of Canterbury , robbed his shrine , and burnt his Reliques . The Catholick Princes rejected his embasies and solicitations for imitating his example in assuming the supremacy . And how much the protestant Princes were troubled and ashamed that he made his lust the motive of his reformation . How incredible a thing is the English supremacy . K. Henry 8. at length resolved to renounce it , and returne to the duty of a Christian King , but stood upon such termes , and differrd it so long that he died in Schism , excommunicated , and despairing of Gods mercy . His last will and testament was broken before his body was buried . The Erle of Hartford made himself Protector , and brought into England the Sacramenrian or the Zuinglian heresy , against K. Henrys last will , and the lawes of the land then in force without a Parliament and contrary to the votes of the Erles of Arundell and Southampton , and others of the 16. Trustees named Governors by K. Hēry 8. during the minority of Edw. 6. SVBSECT : I. HOw Seamor was directed and destroyed by Dudley , Duke of Northumberland . The sayd Dudley ( notwithstanding he was a Catholick in his judgment as himself confessed at his death ) concurred to establish protestancy in England , designing therby to vnsettle the state , and make way for excluding the right heirs of the Crown ; and crown his own family , which he effected by excluding Q. Mary ( for being a Catholick ) and by marrying his Son to the Lady Jane Grey , who had no other right to the Kingdom but what her Zeal to the Protestant Religion and Clergy gave her . What wicked men and great cheats were Cranmer and his Camerades that composed the 39. articles of the Protestant Religion of the Church of England , and the common prayer book , that of Sacraments , Rites and Ceremonies , and how the common people were made believe the change was not of Religion but of language SECT : V. OF the 39. Articles of the Church of England ; they contain only some general notions of Christianity , and are applicable to all dissenting Sects of Protestancy , as Presbytery , Zuinglianism &c. The design of the composers having bin rather to give men a liberty of not believing the particulars of Christian Religion , then of tying them to any certain points therof , or to any faith , therfore they declare that the visible Church is fallible , and determin no certain canonical Scripture of the new Testament . They make the doctrin that Luther learnt of the Devil against the Mass , Tradition , and praying to Saincts &c. part of their Creed : as also the Tenet against spiritual Caracters of Episcopacy and Priesthood ( art . 25. ) rejecting imposition of hands as not instituted by Christ. In the 2. last Articles they endeavour ( in vain ) to suppress the errors of Anabaptists ; especialy that of appropriating to themselves other mens goods : in vain I say , because in their former articles they declare its lawful for Protestants to dispossess the Roman Catholick Clergy of their goods and dignitys , by vertue of a privat interpretation of Scripture ; and the Anabaptists pretend no more but that its lawfull for themselves to deal after the same manner with Prelaticks : and t is certain there can be no disparity given . So that the two last articles of the 39. as also that of the authority of the Protestant Clergy , are against an evident parity of reason in their own Protestant Principles . SECT : VI. A Particular account of the revolutions which these 39. articles caused in England : and how they may work always the same effects , if there be such politick and popular heads amongst us , as Dudley , Crumwell and many of the last long Parliament . Q. Maries Reign how much endangered by Protestant designs and rebellions . Duke Dudleys speech at his death . The Roman Catholick Religion restored by Act of Parliament , and the Protestant decreed to be Heresy and Schism , as also the force and frauds of K. Henry 8. divorce discovered , and his marriage with Q. Catharin of Spain , declared valid . The Roman Clergys resignation of the Church revenues to the Crown and present possessors . Q. Elizabeths intrusion against the right of the Steward 's effected by the zeal of the Protestant faction for suppressing of Popery . SECT : VII . NOtwithstanding that Q. Elizabeth was declared illegitimat by 3. Acts of several Parliaments never yet repealed , she possessed herself of the Croun , and excluded the Queen of Scots the lawfull and immediat heir to Q. Mary lately deceased . By the advice of Cecil and others she revived Protestancy , and the Supremacy , therby to excuse her illegitimacy . She instituted a new Kind of Clergy ; the Prelatick Protestant Bishops neither had , nor have any other caracter of Episcopacy , but what the great seal , and her temporal laws give them . Any Lay person may consecrat a Bishop of the Church of England , if he hath the Kings commission to do it , all other things being superfluous , according to the Act. 8. Eliz. 1. and 25. article of the 39. How the Oath of supremacy divided Protestants , and made the Catholicks more constant . The simplicity of some Protestant writers pretending that the Pope offered to confirm the English liturgy if Q. Elizabeth would acknowledge his jurisdiction . SECT : VIII . REasons why Q. Elizabeth in her long raign could not settle her Protestant Religion , nor gain credit for the Prelatick Clergy : Neither is it possible for her Successors to make the generality of her subjects to have any esteem for either . SECT : IX . HOw injurious and prejudicial the Protestant Religion hath been to the Royal family of the Stevards : and how zealous they have bin , and still are , in promoting the same . It preferred not only Q. Elizabeth , but also any natural child of hers , before the line of the Stewards . Wherof see the 8. sect . ●in : How dexterously K. James played his game ; and how they who murthered his mother , were forced to invite him to the Crown of England . Of his design to reform the principles and liberty of Protestancy , intending therby to render it less dangerous to lawfull Soveraigns , and Monarchy . How K. Charles 1. pursued his Fathers design ; but his sufferings and death demonstrat the impossibility of confining the Protestant liberty within the rules of Government , or reason . By the fundamental principles of Protestancy , every particular person is a Supreme Iudge in spiritual affairs ; and may more easely apply and abuse that prerogative to the prejudice of his Soveraign , then the Pope can his papal Supremacy . Therfore it s a great providence of God when any Protestant King of England escapes to be judged and deposed by his Subjects . THE SECOND PART . OF the vnreasonableness of Protestancy and of the inconsistency of the principles of Protestancy with Christian piety and peaceable government . SECT : I. THe vnreasonableness and inconsistency of Protestancy with Christian piety , or policy , proved by the very fundamental principle of all Protestant reformations ; which principle is a supposition of the fallibility and fall of the visible Catholick Church , from the pure and primitive doctrin of Christ , to damnable errors , and notorious superstition . Such a change is demonstrated both incredible and impossible . SECT : II. THe Protestants proof of such a change is their pretended cleerness of Scripture . It is demonstrated that their Sense of Scripture is not clear in any texts controverted between Catholicks and Protestants . That the principles of Protestancy incline to vice , the Catholick principles to vertue : proved in many particulars . The invisibility of the Church , a ridiculous comment . SECT : III. THe Protestant letter and Sense of Scripture is not the word of God. Doctor Cossins his Scholastical History of the English Canon of Scripture , confuted ; as also his exceptions against the authority of the Roman Catholick Canon . The Lutheran Churches of Germany agree not with the English Canon of Scripture . SVBSECT : I. DOctor Cossins ( now Bp. of Duresme ) his exceptions against the Councel of Trent , answered . The legality of a Councel as well as of a Parliament may stand with the absence of many members , if they were summoned and expected . The absurdity of Protestant writers excepting against the want of Bishops in the Councel of Trent , wheras themselves made new Religions and reformations by a Single voice of Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin &c. and in England by the vote of the major part of twelve persons named by the Parliament to determin matters of faith and Sacraments ; seaven men were thought sufficient to do the work , and cast the Roman Catholick Religion . Protestant Bishops can no more pretend to sit and define in a general Councel , then proclaimed rebells can pretend to vote in a lawful Parliament . It s as reasonable the Bishop and Church of Rome should condemn hereticks , and judge all controversies of faith as it is that a King and Parliament condemn rebells and judge suites in law . A new definition of Pope or Councel is no new article of faith ; it is only a declaration of our obligation to believe that which formerly had bin revealed but not sufficiently proposed . Doctor Cossins his egregious falsification of Belarmin , his wresting words of St. Austin and St. Hierom. SECT : IV. THe Protestant translations of Scripture are fraudulent and fals : no certainty of Christian faith can be built vpon them : Protestants admit no Coppy or translation to be authentick , to the end they may be at liberty to reject what they do not fancy of the letter of Scripture as well as of the sense . The vulgar Latin is authentick Scripture . How corrupt are all English Bibles . How in K. Edward 6. his reign Cranmer , and the first Apostles of English Protestancy , changed the very text of Christs words ( This is my body ) three several times . Protestants make the Apostles fallible in doctrin , even after receiving the holy Ghost , and by consequence must hold their writings or Scripture to be fallible . SVBSECT : I. MAny particular instances of Protestant corruptions in the English Bibles , to asert the Protestant and prelatick doctrin of the Church of England , Against images , Against Ordination by imposition of hands , Against the single life of Priests , Against the Sacrifice of Masse , Against vowes of chastity . To favor the Kings Supremacy , How fondly these corruptions are excused by Whitaker , and how absurdly Scripture is made speak according to the Protestant translations . What small hopes there are that a Clergie which corrupts Scripture , or continueth and countenanceth corruptions of Scripture , will repent or recant their errors , and how little reason the Protestant layty hath to rely vpon their Clergys sincerity , or vpon their English Scripture . SECT : V. THe Protestant interpretation is not the true Sense of Scripture . The principal part of Gods word , is the sense he delivered to the Church , together with the letter . It s against reason to believe that the Church would be more carefull of preserving the letter , then of preserving the sense of Scripture ; and therfore Protestants are vnexcusable for taking the letter from the Roman Church , and rejecting the sense . The holy Fathers bid us receive the Sense of Scripture as well as the letter , from the Church . An infallible mark of heresy to do the contrary . It is at least 16. to one , that the Roman Catholick Sense of Scripture is true , and the Protestant fals . SECT : VI. NO Protestant Church hath a true Ministery , Miracles , Succession of doctrin , or Sanctity of life . Their extraordinary vocation is ridiculous and incredible , it being impossible that God should send Ministers to contradict doctrin confirmed with so many signs of his own authority and approbation , as the Roman Catholick is . God never sent such vitious men as the Protestant reformers were , to reform his Church either in the old or new Testament . If the Protestant doctrin had bin true , God would have wrought miracles to confirm it , for the conversion of the seduced Papists , as Protestants confess he doth for the conversion of the Jndians , Iaponians , and China . What wicked men were Luther , Zuinglius Calvin , Beza , Cranmer , and the rest of his Camerades that framed the Religion and Liturgy of the Church of England ; and how little credit in matters of faith deserves the Parliament that confirmed the same . Calvins miracle at Geneva foretold by Tertullian . SECT : VII . THe conversion of pagan Kings and Kingdoms to Christianity foretold in Scripture , is a more cleer sign of the true Church then any other miracles ; and not to be found in any other Church but in the Roman Catholick , acknowledged by learned protestants . Of Barlows three-score invisible Queens converted by protestants . No greater an absurdity then their invisible Church . The vain endeavors of Calvin and other protestants to convert Heathen nations . Bezas despair of Success in that Ministery , and his advice to protestants to leave that labor to the Jesuits , and rather busy themselves at home . Tertullians saying ( that its a sign of hereticks to pervert Christians , not convert pagans , ) may be properly applyed to Protestants . Their success in propagating their new Ghospel no greater miracle then the propagation of Mahomets Religion . SECT : VIII . OF the Protestant justifying faith how absurd and inconsistent with Christian virtues : how dangerous to Princes and all civill government : Cromwell was directed by it , and it may raise many Cromwells . It s as dangerous an opinion as Atheism ; and therfore cryed down by K. James in the Conference at Hampton Court : yet can it not be disowned by the Church of England without disowning Protestancy , and the Prelatick Religion . How much the best Protestant Princes and their Ministers are forced to suffer by this justifying faith of their subjects : what great errors in policy they much condescend vnto : Proved by the settlement of Ireland . The late Earle of Straffords project and policy to make Roman Catholicks considerable in Irland . Protestant Monarchy is more supported by Jrish Popery , then by Scotch or English presbitery . How fallacious , and dangerous a thing it is they call the English Protestant interest , in Irland . Jn all parts of the world where Protestancy is professed , their own Authors confess that vice and villany must reign ; and there most , where their justifying faith is purest . The Roman Indulgences and Iubilees give no such liberty or indemnity as the justifying Protestant faith . Wee Roman Catholicks ought to praise , and thank our Soveraign and his Ministers for not feeling wors effects of this justifying faith , and of Protestancy . To vse us with Christian moderation they strive against the principles of their own Religion . SECT : IX . THat the rule of the Protestant faith and judge of controversies ( which is Scripture as interpreted by every Protestant ) is not consistent with Christian Faith , humility , Charity , peace either in Church or State. All hereticks appeale to the letter of Scripture , therfore Luther called it the book of hereticks . Every particular person ( according to the fundamental principle of Protestancy ) must be a Supreme Iudge of Scripture , Councells , and Fathers and of the whole Church . How ridiculous it is to see shallow wits , and silly women , explain Scripture , condemn Councells , Fathers , and the whole Catholick Church ; which folly proceeds from want of judgment , humility , charity , and Christian faith : It occasioned our late troubles , and rebellion , which was grounded vpon the Principles of Protestancy . A Protestant people cannot be otherwise governed then a people wherof every one by priviledge or birthright , may appeale from the law interpreted by publick Courts of Judicature , to the law interpreted by every privat person . The Protestants imaginary general Councells , and their appeales therunto , discovered to be a cheat to divert and delay any determination of religious controversies . Every Protestant is a Pope , more absolute and dangerous , then the Bishop of Rome . K. James his saying that every Protestant in the house of Commons was a King by his Religion . How little the oath of Supremacy contributes to the Kings Soveraignty , or Security , or to the subjects loyalty . The Protestant rule of faith is but every ones fancy applyed to the words of Scripture . And therfore they often change according to their weakness of judgment or strength of passion . Auditius his expression of their monthly faith ; and Melanctons saying ( both Protestants ) that they knew whom to avoid , but knew not whom to follow , are ingenuous . The Protestant confessions , and articles of faith composed , and professed by every national Church , oblige not the members of those Churches , because the Collectors and composers of such articles are not infallible , and will be thought not to agree with Scripture , at least as every particular person will explain it . The 39. Articles of the Church of England are so ambiguous , that they may be applyed to all dissenting Tenets of Protestants , both at home and abroad ; and therfore are printed and pressed in England to satisfy disagreeing parties : and yet no party is contented with that indifferent symbol , though each party callenges them in some occasions , as favoring their own opinions , nor any thing more contrary to piety and policy then articles so applicable to contrary Tenets , and interests . An arbitrary Religion is more dangerous and prejudicial to a state , then an arbitrary government . How vnfit the 39. articles and the Oath of Supremacy are to be made the distinctive sign of trust and loyalty to the King. A man is more engaged to stick to the King by a red scarf , or a garniture of ribands of the Kings colours , then by an oath of so incredible a thing as the Supremacy ; and so vnsignificant articles as those of the 39. that contradict the Roman Catholick doctrin . That Religion that hath not a more certain or infallible rule of faith then the Protestant Prelatick of England hath , is not fit to be made the distinctive sign of trust , or loyalty , or the Religion of the state . SECT : X. HOw fundamental principles of the Protestant reformations maturely examined , and strictly followed , have led the most learned Protestants of the world , to Judaism , Atheism , Arianism , Mahometism &c. And the protestant Churches of Poland , Hungary and Transilvania , to deny the mystery of the Trinity ; and our best modern English witts and writers , to admit of no other rule of Religion ▪ but natural reason . Instanced in Castalio , Bucer , David George , Bernardin Ochin , Neuserus , Calvin , Alemanus , Socinus , Chillingworth , Stilling fleet , Faukland &c. How prelatick Protestancy is contemned by the best protestant wits , and writers as being incoherent to the principles of protestancy , and contradictory in its own Tenets . How Presbiterians agree with the Anti-trinitarians in their way of reforming . A Prelatick is a Presbiterian against Papists , and a Papist against Presbyterians . His own Religion includes both their Tenets , though contradictory : he hath but one Tenet wherunto he is constant , and that is Episcopacy de Iure divino . Calvinists are sayd by Lutherans to be baptised Jews , and that Mahometism , Arianism , and Calvinism , are 3. pair of hose of one cloath . All protestant reformations are remnants of the same piece , though with different trimmings according to the diversity of their reformers fancyes . Why our English protestants deny not the Trinity , as well as those of Hungary : without violating the principles of protestancy they may doe it . Articles of Christian Religion against conclusions cleerly deducible from the principles of protestancy are not valued by protestants . It is the case of the Church of England . SECT : XI . THe indifferency , or rather inclination of Protestancy to all kind of infidelity , is further demonstrated by the prelatick and Calvinian doctrin of fundamental and no● fundamental articles of faith . The design of this new distinction manifested and frustrated . The design is to make all Christians ( though declared hereticks ) that dissent from Roman Catholicks , one Church , and of the Protestant communion . The Greeks and others , reject Protestants as hereticks . By their doctrin of fundamentalls Turks and Iews may be of one Church and communion with Christians . Protestants proceed in matters of Religion as weak Statesmen do in state affairs . For their separation from the Roman Catholick Church they cannot be excused from a damnable sin and schism . Their writers charity towards Catholicks is but forc't and feigned . Whatsoever is required that a Church be truly Catholick , is visible in the Roman . It may judge and censure all other dissenting congregations , without note of partiality , or illegality . Protestants have no credible nor legal witnesses to testify that their doctrin is the same which Christ and his Apostles taught : Roman Catholicks have . If all sects of Christians were admitted to general Councells , and therin Judges of themselves , and of their faith , greater illegality it would be ; and greater partiality , then that only Roman Catholicks be Judges of their cause . Since the Apostles time , one part of the Christians judged the other ; and the part that judged the other , was that which obeyed and stuck to the Bishops of Rome as St. Peters Successors ; proved in every age vntill this present . SECT : XII . HOw Gods veracity is denyed by Protestancy ; as also by the prelatick doctrin of fundamental and not fundamental articles of faith . The belief of Gods veracity consists not in acknowledging that whatsoever God sayd , is true : ( never any heretick denyed that , and all hereticks deny Gods veracity ) but consists in believing that God will not color nor countenance falshood with supernatural and evident signes of truth . Protestants give less credit and obedience to Gods Ministers and Orders declared by the Church though qualified with vndeniable signes of Gods truth ▪ then they do to a Constable , Catchpol , or any other the meanest officers of a Court or Commonwealth ; though their warrants or badges may be more easily counterfeited , then the miracles or signes of the Roman Catholick Church . They will not believe God speaks or commands by the Roman Catholick Church , though it hath the supernatural signes of his trust , and sheweth his great seal Miracles ; but they believe that the King speaks and commands by any Minister of state , or inferiour Magistrat . No Ministers of judicature or officers of war , have so authentick marks of the Kings authority to command the subjects , and to end Suits of law , as the Roman Catholick Church hath of Gods authority to instruct mankind , and determin controversies of faith . As it is rebellion to contemn the Kings authority represented by the authentick badges therof in his Ministers ; so is it heresy to contemn Gods authority represented in the Roman Catholick Church by supernatural signes ; as miracles , sanctity , Conversion of nations &c. Gods veracity might be lawfully questioned , if it were lawfull to judge that he permits the Roman Catholick Church to err in any point of faith whatsoever : Proved by a similitude of my Lord Chancelor delivering the Kings mind to the Parliament in his Majesties own hearing and presence . Veracity is a vertue inclining to speak truth , not only when the person speaks , but when any other speaks by his commission ; for then , the person that employes an other to speak , is bound ( by virtue of his own veracity ) to endeavour ( to the vttermost of his power ) that his Minister , or Messenger vtter nothing but truth : and this is to be vnderstood not only in matters of great , but also of small importance . Protestants make their own conveniency ( not Gods veracity ) the motive of their faith : and measure therby , which articles are fundamental , which not . The most fundamental article , ( or the foundation of faith ) is , to believe , that God can not permit his Church to err , even in not fundamentals . A Demonstration ad hominem against the Protestant doctrin of the Churches fallibility in not fundamentalls . SECT : XIII . THe same further demonstrated ; as also that neither the Protestant faith , nor that of the Sure footing in Christianity , is christian belief . Not the matter believed , but the motive and manner of believing , makes our belief Christian. Protestants and the Author of the Sure footing believe not any thing in matters of faith which they do not imagin to be evident , in it self , or evident to them that it is revealed . They agree in making cleer or self evidence the rule of faith , but vary in the application of that rule : the Author of the Sure footing applies it to all or most of the Roman Catholick Tenets ; Protestants to few . The doctrin of the Sure footing can not be excused by the opinion of some Schoolmen , that say , an act of faith is possible and consistent with evidence of the revelation . Christian faith must have a mixture of obscurity . Mr. Robert Boyles expression ( that faith and twilight agree in this property , that a mixture of darknes is requisit to both ; for that with too refulgent light the one vanisheth into knowledge , as the other , into day ) is not only witty , but agreable to the sense of the ancient Fathers , and to Scripture : Hebr. 11. To believe , is to trust the person believed , and take his word for the truth ▪ as you doe a mans word , or bill for mony . Gods worth and veracity being infinit , we ought not to admit of any doubt in matters of faith : our assurance of faith must not be grounded vpon evidence either of the object , or of the revelation but vpon an impossibility that God should ( by evident signes ) oblige mankind to believe , that he revealed the mysteries of Christianity and yet not reveale them ; or permit the Church to deceive us . God were not omnipotent , did he permit the Church to err in any matter of faith , though not fundamental : because according to the proportion of ones inclination to any thing , is the application of his power to effect the same : and Gods inclination to truth , ( even in not fundamentalls ) being infinit , he must be infinitly concerned , and applied to preserve the Church from falshood in the least articles as well as in fundamentalls . The different manner of believing God , and men . Wee could not believe God if it were evident to us he spoke what we assent vnto . Wherin doth consist the guilt of heresy ? Declared by that of rebellion . The absurdity of the privat spirit , and of all other Protestant pretexts against the publick testimony and authority of the Roman Catholick Church . SECT : XIV . PIety and policy mistaken in making prelatick Protestancy the legal Religion of the state ; and in continuing the Sanguinary and penal statuts against the Roman Catholick faith . It was want of Christian piety in Q. Elizabeth to introduce the Protestant Religion , but not want of human policy , because she had no title to the Crown but by Protestancy . The title of the Stevards is vnquestionable ; and therfore they need not the Support of Protestancy . How dangerous and damnable a thing it is , to make the temporal laws of the land the rule of faith : the Protestant prelatick Religion hath no better . The Principles and priviledges of Protestancy being inconsistent with Soveraignty and government ; every Protestant Commonwealth found it necessary to mold and moderat those principles and priviledges by human lawes , according to the customs and constitutions of every Kingdom ; and therfore Episcopacy ( without which our Parliaments could not be legal ) was here in England continued with prelatick Protestancy , though contrary to the Tenets of Protestancy , and to the examples of other Protestant Churches . Whence followeth continual discontents and designs of the generality of these Protestant nations against their prelatick Clergy ; and the little esteeme and affection there is for the same Clergy among the reformed Churches abroad . How vnsafe it is for the Prince and government to establish by law a Religion and Clergy so generaly hated , and that acknowledgeth it self to be fallible in doctrin , and therfore ( for all they know ) lead their flocks to eternal damnation . Laws enacted to favor Religion , ought to suppose , not pretend to make the Religion reasonable . Reason is the ground of human laws ; but human laws can not be the ground of Religion . How dangerous it is to press too much the Act of vniformity against so great and zealous a multitude as the Sectaries are . Their errors ought to be confuted with reason , not rigor . The prelatick Clergy ( whose spiritual Censures and authority ought to quash all dissentions ) doth cause the mischief , and engageth the state in perpetual troubles for maintaining ( by force of law ) the improbability of their caracter and jurisdiction , against the evidence of reason . SVBSECT : I. THe prelatick caracter and Religion is so incredible that few serious men in their judgments continue any long time Prelaticks . By pretending a mean , and moderation between Papists and Presbiterians , the Prelaticks fall into manifest contradictions in defending their own caracter , doctrin , and disciplin . How learned Protestants are forc't to confess that the Prince may force his subjects by laws to his Protestant persuasion ; and that every Protestant subject ( notwithstanding the Prince his prerogative ) hath a privat authority to judge of the Prince his Religion ; and is bound to stick to his own contrary judgment . What great confusion this must occasion . It is the nature of all Religions that give privat men liberty to judge of Religious controversies , to cause such disorders . How this inconvenience is prevented in the Roman Catholick . One of the differences between it and the Protestant is , that when Protestants rebell , they do not violat the principles of Protestancy , which makes every man Supreme in matters of faith , and by consequence of state . When Catholicks rebell , they go against their principles , that give no such supremacy or liberty . Jn these last one hundred years there have bin more rebellions vpon the score of Protestancy , then have bin since Christs time vpon the score of the Roman Catholick Religion . In what sense the Roman Catholick is a growing Religion . Whether it be policy to persecute a Religion that encreaseth against the rigor of the lawes ; and to promote a Religion that doth not encrease with all the helps of lawes and favors of the Prince . The sanguinary and penal statuts are thought to be so vnjust , ( even by Protestants ) that no honest and sober man thinks them fit to be put in execution . Whether it be policy to continue such statuts ? All seditious persons begin their designs against the government with pressing the execution of the statuts : and somtimes therby make the zealous and giddy multitude rebell . Whether it were not piety and policy to repeal statuts , that , if put in execution , make the nation and government infamous ; if not put in execution , may occasion rebellion , by reason of an indiscreet zeal in the giddy multitude ? Besides , their being enacted to suppress the principles and destroy the persons of the Catholick party , which maintained the Stevards right to the Crown , ought to facilitat the repeal . SVBSECT : II. THe sanguinary and penall statuts of England against Catholicks , can not be justified by the proceeding of the Inquisition , or by laws and edicts of Christian Kings and Emperors against hereticks . The first English Protestants acknowledged themselves to be hereticks , when they petitioned to the Parliament ( 1. Ed. 6. ) for a repeal of all ancient statuts against hereticks , not daring to preach and profess their reformed doctrin vntill the Parliament had condescended to their petition . Queen Elizabeths reformation confirmed by Sanguinary statuts diametricaly opposit to primitive Christianity : and therfore very strange , that men so knowing as the English nobility and gentry , should continue them ; or that persons so pious , loyall , and well bred , should not ( either out of Christian charity to Catholicks or out of a dutifull civility to the Royal family that now reigns ) repeale laws enacted by Q. Elizabeth for ruin of the Stevards party , and for excluding themselves from the Crown . THE THIRD PART . COntaining the conscience and conveniency of tolerating the Roman Catholick religion by Act of parliament ; proved by the little conscience of the Protestant clergy , in maintaining Protestancy with frauds and falsifications : and by the great inconveniencies this Monarchy suffers by pressing the prelatick and Protestant Religion vpon tender consciences . SECT : I. DEmonstrated that either the learned Protestant , or the Roman Catholick Clergy , are Cheats . Proved by the impossibility of concealing the truth of Christianity , and of the true Church otherwise then by the frauds , and falsifications of either Clergy : So manifest are the signs of the Catholick Church and so particularly mentioned in Scripture . And as one of the two Clergyes are Cheats , so either the Catholick or Protestant layty , are damnably careless in matters of salvation . Reasons why the Catholick layty can not be thought carless ; the Protestant may . How easily the truth may be known and how the Protestant layty may be considerably eased from extraordinary taxes , by informing themselves of the truth of Religion . The impudency and impiety wherwith Bp. Ievell and the first prelatick clergy imposed Protestancy vpon this nation , to favor Q. Elizab : pretensions , and to raise themselves from Pedantry to Peerage . Proved by Ievells Challenge and Sermon at Paules Cross ; and by his and the Prelatick clergyes Apology for their Church of England : pretending that the Catholick Church for the first 600. years was Protestant . How this imposture was confuted by the Catholick writers ; and the Protestant writers forced to acknowledge their own error . How the same imposture was again maintained by succeeding prelaticks , and how vnsuccesfully . How Taylor revived now again the same shamfull imposture , and with how great infamy to his person , and discredit to his cause . The Protestant layty can not , without committing a damnable sin give any credit to their Clergy in matters of Religion , after so many and so manifest Discoveries of the frauds and falsifications wherby ( alone ) they defend Protestancy . How a conference and Triall about this matter can not be conscientiously denyed , nor the denyall stand with good policy . SECT : II. THe same further demonstrated ; and that there can be no reason to suspect the sincerity of the Roman Catholick Clergy . SVBECT I. AND II. WHether it be charity to treat Cheats with ceremony , when they are convicted of damning souls by frauds and wilfull falsifications . And whether the first reformers of the English Church ( Cranmer and his Camerades , ) ought not to be censured accordingly . The frauds , and wilful falsifications , hypocrisy , incontinency , impiety and Atheism of the prelalatick Protestant Clergy in K. Edward 6. reign . What a wicked man Arch. Cranmer ▪ was . of Peter Martyr , Echinus , Bucer , Latimer , and Ridleys impieties . SVBSECT . III. OF Hooper , Rogers , Poynet , Bale , and Coverdale . Hooper and Rogers combined against Crāmer and Ridley . How Latimer joyned with them . Their Project of Puritanism . How Hooper inveighed against plurality of benefices when he had none , and enjoyed two Bishopricks when his faction prevailed ; and left his friend Rogers in the lurch . How Rogers and Coverdale conspired with Tyndall to falsify Scripture . Bishop Poynets contest and Suit in law , with a Butcher , about the Butchers wife , notwithstanding that Poynet had one of his own . But Sentence was given for the Butcher against Poynet ▪ contrary to the Principles and liberty of Protestancy , and to what the protestant Church had resolved before in the like case between Sir Ralph Sadler , and one Barrow , whose wife was decreed to be married to Sir Ralph , during Barrows life . Bishop Bales conversion to protestancy , related by himself , and attributed to his beloved Dol. What an impostor he was . Bish : Coverdales drunkenes , and corruptions of Scripture . How corrupt and vngodly a Scripture is the English translation of the Bible . It was condemned by act of Parliament as fraudulent ād fals . Notwithstanding which censure it was ( and is ) imposed vpon the Nation as the word of God ; sometimes it was called Mathews Bible ; othertimes the Bishops Bible or the Bible of the large volume , with litle or no alteration . Coverdales vanity in attempting to convert to protestancy the Vniversity of Oxford . Laurence Sanders a Protestant Martyr and Priest ; his resolution to dy for legitimating his little bastard . SVBSECT : IV. ARch . Cranmers conference with Doctor Martyn and other Catholicks . How weakly he defended the Protestant cause . How vainly Protestants pretend Scripture for their doctrin , as all heretiks do . How Cranmer was proved to be an heretick by the definition of Origen , Tertullian , &c. SECT : III. OF the Protestant Clergy in Q. Maries reign , the same that afterwards founded Q. Elizabeths Church . Their frauds , factions , cheats , and changes of the English Protestant religion during their exile in Germany , Related by Dr. Heylin . How the German Protestants called the English Protestants , the devils Martyrs , and would not entertain their banished Clergy and Confessors . How therupon the English clergy changed and accommodated their Religion to that of the places wherin they lived , and printed books at Frankford and Geneva containing contrary doctrines for humoring dissenting churches . How often they changed their Liturgy at Frankford . Of Grindall , Horn , Sandys , Chambers , Pakhurst , Whithead , Whittingham , Williams , Goodman , Wood , Sutton , Fox ; their frauds , factions , divisions and books against Q. Mary &c. How vnfit men to be Bishops and to found a Church : and yet they were the chief pillars and Prelats of Q. Elizabeths reformation . SECT : IV. ABominable frauds , and wilfull falcifications of the protestant Clergy in Q. Elizabeths reign to maintain their doctrin set forth vnder the name of an Apology and defence of the Church of England . How Q. Elizabeth gained the Nobility and House of Commons to vote in Parliament for reviving Protestancy . Of Bish. Iewells ridiculous challenge at Pauls Cross. How all the Protestant Clergy conspired with him in his impostures . How they were confuted by Doctor Harding , Stapleton and other Catholicks . All the Protestant writers borrow from Jewells impostures their arguments and authoritys against the Roman Catholick Religion . Acknowledged by Dr. Heylin in his history of the Church of England . SVBSECT : I. THe Protestant Clergys fraud and falshood against Communion vnder one kind . It was a thing indifferent in the ancient Church . Proved by several instances : Jewells ridiculous evasions . SVBSECT : II. JEwell and the Protestant Clergy censure as hereticks the same ancient Fathers they appeal vnto in other controversies , for condemning the mariage of Priests . They corrupt the Ecclesiastical history for the same reason ; and bring an example of an imaginary Bishop to confirm their corruption : and pretend that S. Gregory Nazianzen says that a Bishop may minister the better in the Church for having a wife in his house , and that his own Father was instructed in Ecclesiastical functions by his wife . SVBSECT . III. IEwell ( and his Prelaticks ) charge Cardinal Hosius and all Catholicks with contemning the holy Scriptures contrary to his own knowledge , and even after he had bin admonished of the imposture . SUBSECT . IV. FAlsifications and frauds against the Bishop of Rome his Supremacy , scripture falsified to impugne the same . SVBSECT . V. PRotestants frauds and falsifications to deny and discredit the Sacrifice of Mass. Their pretence that the ancient Mass was the same thing with the English communion or Liturgy . Iewells impudency . SUBSECT : VI. PRotestant falsifications and corruptions of Scripture to make the Pope Antichrist , and the succession of Bishops a mark of the beast . Q. Elizabeths first Bishops were violently bent against Episcopal Succession , because it was notorious that themselves wanted such a succession . Want of Succession a mark of hereticks . Proved by Fathers . SVBSECT : VII . PRotestant falsifications to prove that Popes may , and have decreed heresys . SVBSECT : VIII . ITem to prove that Popes have insulted over Kings . SVBSECT : IX . ITem to prove that S. Austin the Apostle of England was no Saint but an hypocrit , as also to discredit Catholick Writers . SVBSECT : X. PRotestants frauds and falsifications of Scripture , as likewise their altering of the 39. articles of Religion , to make the laity believe that there are true Bishops and Priests in the Church of England . Jtem their forgery of records . The Evasions of Primat Bramhal and others , concerning their Episcopal succession , confuted . SVBSECT : XI . & XII . AN advertisment to the Reader concerning Bishop Iewell , of some learned Protestants converted to the Roman Catholick Faith by discovering the falsifications and frauds of his books . Mr. Hookers sincerity questioned for his immoderat praises of so great and notorious an impostor , in his Eccles. Polit. A feigned Protestant story of the two Doctors Reynolds . How Iewell excused his falsifications in presence of the Erle of Leicester , by saying that Papists must be dealt with as Papists . SECT : V. FRauds , follies and falsifications of Iohn Fox his Acts of monuments ; and of his Magdeburgian Masters in their Centuries . The litle sincerity of the English Church and Clergy in countenancing such fals dealing . All sober men that read the works of the Magdeburgian Centurists must conclude they composed them rather in drinking stoves then in retired studies : so rash and foolish are their censures of the greatest Doctors and Saints of Gods Church . Valētia the Iesuit aptly compared these centurists to malefactors that confess , all the knowing and honest men of the country or citty witness that they are theeves and hereticks &c. And then these malefactors refute all this , by only saying that the sayd knowing and honest men , so highly esteemed by all the world for their knowledge and integrity , spoke incommodiously , and ignorantly , when they accused the theeves . Iohn Fox his absurdity in making the true Church visible to Protestants , and invisible to Catholicks . What a ridiculous Church of Protestants he fancies , and deduceth only from the time of Pope Innocent 3. and composeth of a rablement of all sectaries , divided among themselves , and dissenting also from Protestants . Proved in particular instances of VValdenses , Albigenses , Wickleff , and others . His three simple Miracles of Luthers , and how Fox describes a revelation of his own , and how he was made a fool by revelation . The Prelatik clergy recommend Fox his works to all Godly people , though the learned of them know it to be a collection of frauds , follies , and fables . SUBSECT : I. IOhn Fox his Calendar of Protestant Saints . In all 456. wherof Bishops Martyrs 5. and Cranmer the principal ; by him you may judge of the rest . Bishops Confessors . 1. Virgin Martyrs none . Mayd Martyrs 3. Kings and Queens Martyrs and Confessors 1. ( Edward 6. ) Other men and women Martyrs 393 ▪ other men and women Confessors 57. The greatest disputers ( against the Catholick Bishops ) of these Martyrs , were a Cook , a Cowheard , a Taylor , a Blaksmith , a millers wife , a Cutlers wife , and a married mayd , So Fox calls her . How madly these poor souls ran to the fire . Fox his Martyrs were all fanaticks . SUBSECT : II. WIlfull falsifications committed by John Fox in his acts and monuments . He falsifies St. Bede , and an ancient english Synod , to make them Quartodecimans , and to favor the Protestant doctrin of divorces . He falsifies also St. Antoninus , to discredit Pope Gregory 7. alias Hildebrand : and a Councell , to favor the mariage of Priests . The ancient Greeks and Latin Churches held the single life of Priests . 120. lyes in three leaves of Fox his book ; and more in the whole then in Sleydans History , though eleven thousand are gathered out of Sleydan by the German writers . His censuring Acts of ancient English Parliaments for condemning Rebells and heretiks . His falsifying Sr. John Oldcastles profession of faith ; to make us believe he was a Protestant in the point of Purgatory . SUBSECT : III. DOctor Charks egregious falsification of St. Austin , and how falsly he excuseth Luthers doctrin of the lawfulness of Adultery and incest . SUBSECT : IV. ARch . Cranmer and Peter Martyrs falsifications against transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Mass. SECT : VI. HOw some Protestant writers in Q. Elizabeths time seing their fellows proved falsifiers , waved the testimonies of the ancient Fathers and Councells , and yet the others continued their former cours of falsifying both Fathers and Councells . Of Whitaker , Arch. Whitgift , and Fulk ▪ How they contemn the Fathers and Church , when they relate ancient condemned heresies that Protestants now profess . Doctor Willet a great Impostor : how impudently he falsifies , taking God to witness he will speak nothing but truth : it is the general custom of Protestant writers . SECT : VII . FAlsifications and frauds of the prelatick and Protestant Clergy ever since the beginning of K. James his reign , for continuing and maintaining Protestancy . SUBSECT : I. THeir corruptions of Scripture notwithstanding that the King commanded the English Bibles to be corrected . They corrected some few things that gave advantage to the Puritans against Episcopacy leaving other corruptions as formerly . Insteed of correcting their fals Scripture , they forged new Registers . How they falsify Scripture in the first commandement ( Exod. 20.4 . ) and yet object against vs Catholiks that wee take away the 2. commandement . How absurd this their objection is . See also how they corrupt Scripture to humour K. James in the supremacy : divers others . Arch. Abbots and the Bp. of Glocester altered the true translation of St. Peters epistle to impugn Purgatory ; accused of this impiety by Sir Henry Savill that translated it rightly . How they corrupt Scripture against prayer to Saints . That Saints in heaven do hear our prayers , proved by reason and authority . Whether it be not more then credible that Arch. Abbots who falsified Scripture , would forge Registers . How vnreasonably the prelatick Clergy in their Dedicatory to King Iames ( set before the new translation of Scripture ) desire his Majesty to protect the same against the objections of Puritans and Papists . SUBSECT : II. OF Dean Walsinghams scruples and Search into matters of Religion ; and how by discovering the frauds and falsifications of his own Protestant Clergy , he became a Roman Catholick . The occasion of his doubts . His memorial to K. Iames ( as being head of the church ) for satisfaction . His reading of the Defence of the Censure , and his judgment therof . How that book proves Scripture is more cleare for Catholick Tenets , then for Protestant : of Dean : Walsinghams appearance before his Grace at Lambeth : his conference with Doctor Covell . This Doctors fraud and folly in diverting Walsingham from the truth . Of Dean Walsinghams third and fourth appearance before my Lord of Canterbury . How he was abused and threatned by his Grace , for desiring to know the truth . Of the Knight of the corner ( Perkins ) and his persuasions . How the Archbishop ( to be rid of a man that pressed to know the truth ) remitted Dean Walsingham to the Commissary of St. Albans , and to others who gave him no satisfaction . Of Bells libells delivered , by the Arch-bishop to satisfy Mr. Walsingham . His last appearance before the Arch-bishop of Canterbury , and an assembly of Diuines . How in their presence he produced the corruptions and falsifications of the Protestant books recommended vnto him by his Grace , and yet neither he nor that assembly durst compare Mr. VValsinghams notes of frauds with the same books as Mr. VValsingham desired ; but dismissed him , wishing he were far enough , for discovering their cheat , and the weakness of their Religion . SUBSECT : III. REflexions vpon Mr. VValsinghams Relation . This like case , and cheat doth happen as often as the Protestant Clergy observeth any conscientious person troubled in conscience through the vnreasonableness of their Religion . A case of conscience concerning one millions of revennue proposed , and desired it be decided by the Parliament , and that some knowing person , ( my Lord Chancellor ) be the Moderator of the conference for that purpose . SUBSECT : IV. A Relation of a Trial held in France about Religion . How necessary the like is in England , for the credit of Protestants , and convenience of the state . SECT : VIII . PRotestant falsifications to persuade that the Roman Catholick doctrin is inconsistent with the Soveraignty and safety of Kings , and with civil Society between Catholicks and Protestants . How the Protestant writers having bin worsted at Scripture , Councells , Fathers &c , now endeavour to defend Protestancy by reasons of state , and become vnfortunat Polititians . Divers falsifications touching this subject published by Morton Bishop of Duresm . How he answers some objections with new lyes : others , whith laying the blame vpon the Archbishop of Canterbury , and Dr. Stork &c. To most objections , he gives no answer . The whole National Synod and Protestant Clergy concurr in an imposture concerning the sign of the Cross in Baptism , against Roman Catholicks . The Protestants falsifications of the Canon Law about deposing of Kings : About cheating excommunicated persons : About murthering and massacring Protestants . Diuers falsifications to assert a spiritual Supremacy in Kings . According to the Law of England , our Kings may minister all ecclesiastical functions , consecrat Bishops ; and their letters patents are sufficient to give any lay person ( man or woman ) power to consecrat Bishops and Priests . Ten wilfull falsifications set down together by Bish : Morton for proving that Catholicks hold the Pope cannot be deposed nor become an heretick . Primat Bramhalls falsification to prove that Popes may and have decreed heretical doctrin . SECT : IX . PRoved by reasons and examples that no Religion is so little dangerous to the soveraignty and safety of Kings , or so advantagious to the peace and prosperity of subjects , as the Roman Catholick , notwithstanding the Popes spiritual supremacy . Bellarmin ( the Author most excepted against in the opinion of deposing of Kings ) sayes that a King cannot be deposed for being an heretick , vnlesse he forceth his subjects to heresy . The Author of this Treatise doth not intend to promote Bellarmīs doctrin , but only sheweth there can be no danger in it though it were allowed as true . Not any thing more contrary to sound policy , then to lay for the foundation of loyalty an Oath or engagement against opinions plausible , popular and practised . The best way to suppress them is to silence the Authors , not censure their doctrin . How litle the Popes power is feared by protestants , though they make it the pretext of persecuting Catholicks . How little his censures can disturb the government in regard of the notoriousness of the fact , and the solemnity of his sentences , required for their validity . How Arch : Laud and other protestants contradict them selves in this matter . A fancied possibility without probability can bring no danger to the government . How vnreasonable it is to exact a more strict profession of allegiance from catholick subjects to a protestant Soveraign , then is given by any other Catholicks to their Catholick Soveraign . That the french Kings exacts such engagements , or Remonstrances from their subjects against the Popes authority , as is required in England and Ireland from Catholiks against the same , is a gross mistake . All such disputes are prohibited in France , as tending to sedition , and no way profitable . The Censure of the Parliament of Paris , and some Doctors of the Sorbon against the Popes authority , disanulled by the King and privy Councell in France . Protestants cannot cleare their own principles in this particular from the aspersions they lay on the Catholick Tenets . One of the fundamental principles of Protestancy is , a power in the people to depose Soveraigns , and dispose of their Kingdoms for the use of the Ghospel . Proved by the examples of all Kingdoms and States that received the Reformation , even the Prelatick of England . SECT . X. THat Protestants could never prove any of the wilfull falsifications wherwith they charged Roman Catholick writers : but on the contrary themselves are convicted of that crime whensoever they attempted to make good their charge against us . Of the Index Expurgatorius . Bp. Taylors objections in the Dissuasive ; as also Bp. Mortons , Bp. Jewells , &c. retorted vpon themselves . Item Sutcliffs accusations against Bellarmin . The Councell of Calcedon confirmed by Act of Parliament of Q. Elizabeth , and by consequence the Popes spiritual supremacy , which that Councell asserts . SUBSECT : I. PRotestants convicted by Belarmin of holding 20. ancient condemned heresies ; and how fourteen are admitted by them , or at least vnanswered ; and the other six wherof they endeavor to cleere themselves , are excused only by falsifying Fathers , and Catholick Authors : among which are two Pelagian heresies , two Novatian , one Manichean , and one of the Arians . Besides these , Protestants maintain Iustification by only faith with the Simonians and Eunomians . That God is the author of sin , with the Florinians . That women may be and are Priests , with the Peputians . That Concupiscency is a sin ; with Proclus . That the true Church was invisible for many ages , with the Donatists . That men ought not to fast the Lent , pray , nor offer Sacrifice for the dead , with the Aerians . That Saints ought not to be prayed vnto , nor their reliques or images worshipt , with Vigilantius . SVBSECT II. FAlsifications objected against Baronius by Dr. Sutcliff . How ridiculous . The difference between the falsifications objected by Catholicks , and those that are objected by Protestants . SECT XI . CAlumnies and falsifications of Luther , Clavin , Arch-bishop Laud , and Primat Vsher , to discredit the Roman Catholick Religion , and vphold Protestancy , against their own conscience and knowledge . What impudent impostors were Luther and Calvin . Proved in many particulars . Frauds and falsifications and calumnies of Primat Vsher ( called the Irish Saint by Protestants ) against the real presence , and Transsubstantiation . Against sacramental Confession . Against absolution of sins by a Priest. His cheat concerning Duli● nd Latria . No new invention of Jesuits , but the ancient doctrin and distinction of the Fathers . Against prayer to Saints . His imposture of the Breviary of the Premonstratensian Order . SVBSECT . I● OF Bp. Laud , the English Protestant Martyr . How fraudulently he would fain excuse the modern Greeks from being hereticks , notwithstanding his 39. Prelatick articles condemn their doctrin of the holy Ghost as heresy . He abuseth S. Austin to make Protestants believe that general Councells may err against scripture and evident reason . He abuseth Vincentius Lyrinensis , laying to that ancient Fathers charge , his Graces own blasphemy : and commits therin many frauds . He falsifies Orcam , and resolves the Prelatick Faith into the imaginary light of Scripture , and the priva● spirit and therin agrees with Presbiterians and Fanatiks And pretends that Prelaticks are not Schismaticks and Sectaries . But to excuse them commits divers frauds . His pretence of the lawfulness for privat Churches to reforme themselves , confuted . His doctrin doth justify all the sectaries proceeding against himself and the Church of England . His vanity in pretending that the Church of Britain is independent of the Pope : as also that the Pope can not be judge in his own cause . His fraudulent and absurd explanation of S. Ireneus against the primacy of Rome ; item of the gallican libertys . His abusing and corrupting S. Greg. Nazian because that Saint asserteth the infallibility of the Roman Church . His falsifying of Gerson vpon the like accompt . A faire offer to Protestants for the trial of falsifications . SECT . XII . Whether it be piety , or policy , to give the Protestant Clergy of these 3. Kingdoms a million sterl . per an . for maintaining ( by such frauds and falsifications as hitherto have bin alledged ) the doctrin of the church of England which also they acknowledge to be fallible , and by consequence ( for all they know ) fals . And how the sayd million per an : may be conscientiously applyed to the vse of the people , without any dangerous disturbance to the Government . It was policy in Q. Elizabeth to make such a clergy and Religion , but not piety . The case being now altered , neither piety nor policy to preserve either . No seditious or interessed persons can disturb the Government ( by pretending zeal for preserving a Religion and Clergy so prejudicial to the soul and state ) if liberty be granted to discover the cheat wherby the people are abused . Many Protestant mistakes wherwith the common sort were fooled , are now cleered ; and their own conveniency wil invite them to examin further the errors of doctrin incident to education , from which errors the Protestant Church doth acknowledge it self not exempted . If the Protestant faith be true , such a trial as we desire will be of great satisfaction to the Professors therof , and confirm them in their religion , and convert Papists and Sectaries to the same ; if it be falfs , besides the salvation of souls by a discovery and prosession of the Roman truth , these kingdoms will be able not only to defend themselves , but offend foreign Enemies after we are enabled thervnto by a conscientious addition of a million sterl . per an , to the publik revenue . No danger of sacriledge in applying the Church revenues to pious and publick vses , for the preservation of the people ; practised by the ancient Catholick Clergy . Not one good reason why the Church of England ought not to admit of such a publick conference as we propose and desire . Bishop Lauds reason to the contrary confuted . The denying and differring it a sign that Protestants are guilty . Catholicks grant conference to Protestants whensoever they demand it . The Protestant layty have reason to question their Clergies Ordination and caracter , as well as their doctrin . The new change of their formes of ordination , very suspicious . That the Roman Religion is such a growing Religion , proves it is the true Religion , fit to be made the Religion of the state . THE FOURTH PART THe Roman Catholick Religion in every particular , wherin it differs from the Protestant , is confirmed by considerable Miracles , recorded not in vain Legends , or modern Authors , but in the most authentick histories of the world , and by the ancient Fathers , and Doctors of Gods Church . SECT : J. SUch Miracles as are approved by the Roman Catholik Church are true Miracles . The doctrin confirmed by those Miracles , cannot be rejected without doubting of Gods Veracity . Every Protestant doth see [ though not observe ] true Miracles , in confirmation of the Catholick faith . What great scrutiny is made by the Roman Catholick Church into true Miracles , and the lives of men , that are to be canonized for Saints . There can be no combination or cheat in such matters . Some Miracles permanent , that be seen by all men , as that of S. Ianuarius in Naples . An vndeniable Miracle of S. Francis Xavier wrought vpon Marcello Mastrilli , most remarkable for many circumstances . Miracles to confirm Popery , related by the Magdeburgian Centurists ; but by them [ absurdly ] attributed to the Devil , or said to be seigned . True Miracles cannot be wrought to confirm falshood : 't is against Gods veracity to permit the same . Miracles oblige vs to believe the doctrin , in confirmation wherof thy be wrought The difference between Antichrists , and Catholicks Miracles , or true and fals Miracles . That all the Roman Catholicks adore the Sacrament , and believe Transsubstantiation , as also other points of Popery , is an evident Miracle of God , and can not proceed from the Devils power or art . The Devil temps men to be hereticks by the means and ministery of their senses , and by humoring the same , not against the evidence and inclination of sense . The general signs and marks of the Church , are vndeniable Miracles . No other Church besides the Roman Catholick , can shew those signs . SECT : II. OF particular miracles that confirm the Roman Catholick Tenents and our sense of Scripture , related by S. Chrysostome , S. Gregory Nazianzen , S. Austin , S. Nilus , S. Cyprian the Martyr , S. Optatus , S. Gregory the great , and others , in confirmation of adoring the B. Sacrament , Transsubstantiation , the Sacrifice of the Mass , Communion vnder one kind , prayer for the dead , and Purgatory . Primat Vshers falsifications and fraud to discredit some of these Miracles discovered . Of Miracles in England , related by Waldensis , and recorded by the Archbishops of Canterburyes Register . How Protestants falsify the very statuts , and law books . Miracles wrought by S. Bernard to confirm every controverted point of the Roman Catholick doctrin against the Protestant . Protestant writers confess S. Bernard was a Saint ; and yet say his Miracles were wrought by the Devil . How absurd . SECT : III. MIracles to confirm the worship and vertu of the sign of the Cross , recorded by St. Paulinus , St. Cyril of Jerusalem , St. Athanasius , St. Hierom , St. Gregory Tu●onensis , Nicephorus and Theodoret. How by Tradition from the Apostles the primitive Christians were accustomed to sign themselves frequently with the sign of the Cross. The first and worst Heretiks were enemyes of that sign . Christs Cross multiplyed by miracle in St. Paulinus his time . Protestant miracles are but cheats . Not one of them true . Protestants agree with Pagans , heretiks , and Magitians , in contemning miracles , and the sign of the Cross. How the Devils dread the same . SECT : IV. MIracles in confirmation of the Catholick worship of Jmages , related by the most eminent authors of the Ecclesiasticall History , and by the 2. Councell of Nice an . 787. wherin were 350. Bishops . St. Peters shaddow was the Image of his body ; and by scripture ( Act. 5.15 . ) it appears to have wrought Miracles . The Protestant Imposture concerning Christs statue that Iulian the Apostata broke , confuted . S. Iohn D●mascens hand that was cut off by the practises of Image-breakers , restored by his praying at our Ladies Image .. The Protestant evasion of civil and religious worship , confuted . SECT . V. MIracles related by S. Austin , S. Ambrose , S. Gregory Nazianzen , S. Chrysostom , S. Hierom , S. Optatus S. Bede , S. Bernard , S. Anselm , and others in confirmation of prayer to Saints , worshipping their Reliques , of the vertue of holy water ; the Sacraments of Confirmaon , Confession , and extrem Vnction . The doctrin of Indulgences confirmed by the same Miracles that confirm worship of Saints , Pilgrimages , &c. The truth of all S. Thomas of Canterburyes Miracles evidenced by one that Fox recounts , and picks out to discredit the test . What litle reason Protestants have to suspect our Catholick Miracles of forgery . How severe the Roman Church is in the scrutiny , and punishment of such Impostures . Reflections vpon Bishop Taylors Treatise of Confirmation . Confession , and extrem Vnction , maintained to be Sacraments by ancient Fathers . S. Bedes holiness and learning acknowledged by Protestants . He relates Miracles , wherby the errors of Protestancy are confuted . How absurdly Protestants contemn the authority of the holy Fathers in Miracles , admitting it in matters of faith . How ridiculous John Fox his Miracles are ; how vnwisely the Prelatick Clergy countenance his Acts and Monuments , that have so spread Puritanism in England . A Paralell between Protestancy and Mahometism . FINIS . THE CONCLVSION To the right Honorable the Committee OF PARLIAMENT , FOR RELIGION . May it please your Honors VEnerable St. Bede in his History of the Church of England , recounteth , how St. Austin the Monk , and our Apostle ( Sent by St. Gregory the Great Bishop of Rome to convert our Saxon Ancestors from Paganism to Christian Religion ) arriving at the Isle of Tanet in Kent , gave notice vnto King Ethelbert ( then a Pagan , ) that he and his fellow-preachers were come from Rome , and brought to him very good tydings ; to wit , that such as would follow and obey their doctrin , should enjoy an everlasting Kingdom in heaven , with the true and living God. The King moved with curiosity , came into the Island of Tanet , and notwithstanding his suspition that the Monks were Magitians , returned this civil and prudent answer ; you give us very fair words , and promises , but yet for that they are strange , and vnknown vnto me , I can not rashly assent vnto them , forsaking that antient Religion which thus long both I and my people have observed . But for so much as you are come so far to the intent you might impart vnto us such knowledge as you take to be right , true , and good , w●e will not seek your trouble , but rather with all Courtesy we will receive you and minister vnto you all such things as are behovefull for your living . Accordingly he allowed them lodging and other necessaries in the City of Canterbury , and after hearing , and examining their doctrin , became a Christian. The very same tydings and Doctrin that St. Austin and his Companions delivered to King Ethelbert , do I most humbly offer vnto your Honors in this book , as your own Bishops and writers [A] confess , and is plain in St. Bedes History , testifying that as they approched neer the Citty ( of Canterbury ) having the Cross and Image of our King and Saviour IESUS Christ , carried , as their manner was , before them , they sung Letanies ▪ they served God in continual prayer , watching and fasting ; They resorted to an antient Church built in the honor of St. Martyn ( made while the Romans were yet dwelling in England ) and there did say Mass &c. This their doctrin they proved to be true by working of many miracles , and to be the very same , which Joseph of Arimathea and the Apostles had preacht to the antient Britons ; whose Bishops St. Austin courted to Ioyn with him in converting of the Saxons ; a Curtesy he never would have desired or demanded , had their Doctrin differed from his ; of certain ceremonies vsed by them in Baptism , and of their Iewish way of celebrating Easter , he did not approve , and all Protestants grant he had good reason ; neither could the Britons themselves gainsay it , when by common accord they prayed that God would vouchsafe by some heavenly sign to declare whether their particular traditions , or rather St. Austins ( with whom , saith Bede , all the other Churches throughout the whole world agreed in Christ ) were most acceptable to his Divin Majesty ; and the Briton Priests having prayed in vain for the restitution of fight to a known blind man , St. Austin compelled by just necessity , fell on his knees , prayed , and forthwith the blind man saw . Then the Britons confessed indeed that they vnderstood that to be the true way of righteousnes , which Austin had preached , and shewed vnto them . This miracle God wrought by his servant to reduce the antient Britons to an vniformity in ceremonies . Many (B) other greater miracles did he work by the same St. Austin , wherby our Modern Ministers are convinced of heresy , for being obstinat in their errors against Transubstantiation , worship of Images , Purgatory , Prayers to Saints , Jndulgences , the Sacrifice of the Mass &c. for that with these Popish Doctrins both St. Austin and his Master St. Gregory are charged by your own Protestant writers , and censured as converting the Saxons from Paganism to this Superstition . I hope your Honors will not give vnto vs , ( who desire only liberty of conscience , wherof the worst consequence can be this that the ancient Religion of Christ may therby be restored ) a wors answer then King Ethelbert returned to S. Austin : Though what wee affirm of the Catholick belief , will seem strange to you that have hitherto supposed the same to be idolatry , or superstition , and perhaps suspect us to be as great Sorcerers as King Ethelbert did S. Austin and his Companions : But without question so pious and prudent Persons as Your Honors , will not be less charitable then a Pagan , to men that besides an everlasting Kingdom in heaven , come to offer you a million sterl . per an . vpon earth ; especialy seing we do not desire you should condemn your own Protestant Religion , nor credit ours , before you see what your Clergy can answer to our reasons , and to corruptions and falsifications of Scripture , and Fathers , which we desire to object against them in a publick conference , if it be your Honors pleasure to grant vs that favor ; for obtaining wherof they will be as earnest Suitors as wee , if they believe their own doctrin . But in case they decline or deferr so reasonable , and seasonable a request as we humbly concieve ours to be , I hope Your Honors will not think that men who dare not defend their Religion against provoking adversaries , that offer to shew the falshood therof , and the frauds wherby it is , and only can be maintained , deserve so great reverence , and revenues , or can be fit to direct others in the way of salvation . (C) As for their railing against St. Austin our Apostle , notwithstanding that God approved of his Doctrin ( with many miracles ) it is no satisfactory way of reasoning : neither ( as I persuade my self ) will they be able to rally so grave and sober a Comittee as your Lordships , out of a million per an . by quoting their own Translations and sense of Scripture , or by wresting texts to their own advantage , and to the great prejudice both spiritual and Temporal of these Nations , again●● the Common●sense and consent of the visible Church for 16. ages . They have had indeed hitherto better Success in this particular , then they could expect from so wary and wise a people as the English ; but the improbability that a Clergy would be so impudent , and impious , as to falsify Scripture , forge Registers , and build faith vpon fancy , hath gained them more credit then they deserved , and made the Layty more credulous , and carless then Christians ought to have bin in a matter of so great importance as the everlasting happines of their souls , and in a subject so tempting and suspicious , as the revenues of the Church . Now that it hath bin the fate , or fortune of this Monarchy to be involued in wars , which have discovered the insufficiency of the Kings revenue to maintain the same , and that we have no other security of a peace ( when concluded ) but the words of Dutch and French● , drawn vp into a formality of Articles , which will be no longer observed then it will be their conveniency so to do ; and that the honor and safety of these three Nations can not be secured without greater , and more Constant supplies and subsidies , then perhaps ( after a little time ) will be safe to exact of the impoverished multitude : seing , I say , this is the present condition of our State , ( and will be also for the future , whensoever it pleaseth our neighbors , to be our enemies ) not only all lawfull ways of raising moneys must be sought after , but many ways ought to be examined , that perhaps hitherto were supposed vnlawful . Wherfore as the French King hath lately commanded a severe scrutiny to be made into a new pretended Nobility ( of a hundred years standing , ) reducing them to their own Rank and quality of Citizens , and hath by penalties , and payments of the Taille raised very considerable summs of money , I presume to suggest vnto your Honors , ( who are appointed to rectify the mistakes , and correct the abuses of Religion ) the Equity , and conveniency of the like scrutiny into Queen Elizabeths pretended Clergy : and dare engage my life , that after your Serious examination of those Protestant Ministers right to the Church livings , and the Roman Catholick Clergys resignation of their right to his Majesty , yee will find a just title in the Crown to a revenue sufficient not only to prevent all domestik dangers , but also to secure us from all foreign disturbances , whether Popish , or Protestant . This human considera●ion is no● offered to so zealous and pious persons , as your Honors are known to be , for a motive of Changing Religion ; 't is only intended for a matter worthy your Judicious reflexion , whether men of so much conscience and credi● ▪ as our Catholik Authors are reputed to be in the most considerable parts of Christendom , would so particularly , frequently , and confidently ( in their printed Books ) accuse the Protestant Clergy of wilfull and vnexcusable falsifications ; and offer to own the charge in a publik Trial , and pretend that without such practises the Protestant Divines can not maintain their reformations ; how is it possible , I say , that knowing and conscientious persons can be such impudent Impostors ? or if yee think our Catholick Clergy can impose such manifest vntruths vpon our own layty , as the Protestant Ministers pretend wee doe , when wee condemn Protestancy ; why may not the Prelatik Clergy of England be Subject to , and suspected of the like impudent practises . There being therfore as fair a possibility of gaining a million per an . for the Crown , as it is incredible that men of reputation would publish impostures so easily discoverable without any hopes of profit therby to themselves , but rather with an assurance of discredit to their cause , and of credit to their Adversaries ; and nothing lost ( but a little time ) in that Your Honors will be pleased to appoint a time and place for a publick trial therof , ( it being but a matter of fact , and soon determined ) I humbly beseech Your Honours that you will be moved with conscience , curiosity , and conveniency , so to order this affair , that the world may be satisfied which of the two Clergys ( Catholick or Protestant ) abuseth their Flocks by a cheating Religion . Not many years since , one Mrs. Stanhop , an English Protestant Gentlewoman that resided in Paris , had thoughts of changing her Religion , her chief motive being the novelty of Protestancy : Dr. Cossins ( now Bishop of Duresme ) after taking vpon himself in that Citty the Charge of the English Prelatick Congregation , notwithstanding his conformity with the Presbyterian Hugonots , and his frequent excursions to Charenton ; and being vexed to loose so vertuous and exemplar a soul as Mrs. Stanhop was reputed to be in his Protestant Church , he seriously endeavored to persuade her , that the antient Religion of England was Protestancy ; and that Popery was the novelty . But it seems the Gentlewoman ( though shee had not pervsed S. Bedes Ecclesiastical History ) had read our Cronicles , the Annals of Iohn Stow , and other Protestant lay-writers , much more sincere then Dr. Cossins ; and whereas before his discours shee only doubted , after shee had considered and reflected vpon the improbability and extravagancy of his imposture , her doubt changed into a certainty of the falshood of Protestancy , seing so learned a Doctor could not maintain its antiquity and truth by a better argument . I Think shee is yet living , and a Religious in Paris ; I am sure many persons of credit and quality yet living , can testify the truth of this passage , which is but a petty Protestant fraud in respect of other sleights and Falsifications mentioned in this Treatise , wherin Dr. Cossins also beareth a part . I have not presented Your Honors with this story of Doctor Cossins as if it had bin a rarity ; it is the ordinary practise among Protestant Prelats and Preachers to feed their Flocks with such stuff ▪ there can be no other against the vniversal tradition , and all the Histories of Christendom . My design in recounting such a passage , is only this , that your Honors may be pleased to consider , whether Doctor Cossins ( or any other Protestant Prela● , to continue in his Bishoprik or Benefice ) will not do as much now for keeping his Royalties and Revenues of the County Palatin of Duresm , as he did then to be a petty Pastor of a privat Chappell in Paris ? Will any learned Protestant Minister stick to imitate such an example , knowing it is the only way for such persons as they are , to thrive , and become great in the English Church and State ? Your Honors Charity may be so great as to suspend your Iudgments concerning their sincerity , but your consciences are so tender , that you will not keep these Actions in suspence of a matter wherin they are so much concerned . The only way to satisfy them , and your selves , as I said before , is , that yee be mediators to the King and Parliament for a Publik Trial either of the Protestant Clergys cheat , or of the Catholick Clergys Calumnies . If what is layd to the protestant Clergys charge in this Treatise , be proved , the Crown gains a million sterl . per an . If not , the Protestant Church and Clergy gains credit ; so that these nations can be no loosers by the Trial we humbly desire ; for that , if granted , it will be known which of both is the true Religion , and perhaps that may appear to your selves to be the true Religion , which offers to treble the publik revenues , and to make this Monarchy not only the most Christian , but the most considerable of the Vnivers ; and then will be fulfilled the vulgar prediction of our King , Erit Carolo Magno Major ; and your Honors will be the chief instruments in making him so great , and his subjects happy ; which is the only design of Your Honors most obedient and most humble servant . J. W. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A62548-e13500 see herfter ●ar : 3. sect ▪ 9. Thomas Bonart in Concordia scientiae cum fide . How fallacious are our philosophical definitions and demonstrations concerning the nature and essence of any thing . Jnstanced in the nature or essence of a Body . Pag : 259 ▪ Bonart in concordia pag 301. & 304. & passim . pag. 297. Bonart lib 5. passim . Wherin consisteth the reasonableness of Religion . The grounds of peace , piety and policy . † ¶ Doctor Philip Nicolai in Comment . de regno Christi , chargeth the Apostles , and the first next succeeding Bishops of Rome , with affectation of the Roman Supremacy . And S. Victor Pope and Martyr ( who lived in the next age to the Apostles ) is reprehended by Nutton , Polanus , Spark , and other Protestants , for hauing exceeded his bounds when he took vpon him to excommunicat the Bishops of the East : S. Ireneus found fault with his seuerity , but neuer doubted of his authority . The Centurists ( Centur. 3. Col. 168. ) do condemn S. Stephen Pope and Martyr for vndertaking to threaten excommunication to Helenus , Firmilianus , and all others throughout Cicilia , Capadocia , and Galacia , for rebaptysing Heretiks . And col : 84. They reprehend S. Cyprian for teaching that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledged of all others for the mother and root of the Catholick Church . And Centur. 4. col : 764. they confess that the Councell of Sardis ( consisting of 300. Bishops and aboue ; assembled from all parts of the world , and wher at , sundry Fathers of the Nicen Councell were present ) decreed appeals to the Bishop of Rome . [a] M. r Whitaker Lib. de Antichristo contra Sanderum pag : 35. answering D. r Sanders ( who affirmed and proued that the Roman Church was not changed during the first 600. yeares after Christ ) Whitaker saith : During all that time the Church was pure and florished , and inuiolably taught , and defended the faith deliuered from the Apostles . See the same acknowledged by M. r Fulk in his confutation of Purgatory pag ▪ 373. And by Reynolds in his conference with Mr. Hart pag : 443. And Mr. Iewell in his reply to Mr. Harding pag : 246. That the Roman faith and the Catholick faith are Synonima , or the same , appeared by [b] S. Hieroms words in Apo : 2. adversus Rufinum , who pretending to be a Catholick , S. Hierom demands : What doth he call his faith ? That which the Church of Rome holdeth ? If he answered , it is the Roman , ergo Catholici sumus ; then without doubt we are Catholicks . And ep . 57. ad Damasum Papam : Quicumque extra banc domum Agnum comederit , profanus est , & quicumque tecū non colligit spargit . S. Cyprian ( lib : 4. epist : 2. ) speaks thus to Antonianus . You writ that I should send a Copy of the letters to Cornelius ( Pope ) to the end that you communicat with him , that is to say , with the Catholick Church ▪ And the same S. Cyprian ( ibid : Epist : 45. ad Cornelium ) it seemeth good to us that letters should be sent to all our Colleagues at Rome that they should firmly embrace your communion ; that is to say , the Catholick Church . Et Ibid : Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens , Beatitudini tuae , id est , Cathedrae Petri communione consocior . Super illā Petram aedificatā Ecclesiā scio . And S. Ambrose , de obitu Fratris , reporteth how his Brother Satyrus being desirous to know whether the Bishop to whom he came were Catholick or no , asked him , whether he did communicat with the Catholick Bishop , hoc est , cum Romana Ecclesia convenerit . [d] ¶ Theodoret [ d ] a Greek Father , in his Epistle to Pope Leo , placed before his Commentaries vpon S. Pauls Epistle , saith , behold after all trauel and sweat , I am condemned , being not so much as accused . But I look for sentence of your Apostolik sea , and I humbly beseech and require your Holiness in this case to aide me ( justum vestrum & rectum appellanti judicium ) appealing to your right and just judgment , and command me to come before you . And in his Epistle ad Renatum Presbit . he further saith , I beseech thee persuade the most holy Arch Bishop Leo , to exercise his Apostolical authority , and command me to go to your Councel , because that holy Sea hath the government of all the Churches of the World. S. Chrysost. in Epist. ad Innocentium Papam saith , I beseech you write that these things so wrongfully don in my absence , and I not refusing judgment , may not be of force , and that those who haue don wrong may be subject to the penalties of the Ecclesiastical lawes , &c. And command vs to be restored to our Church &c. Pope Innocentius in his Epistle to Arcadius the Emperor and his wife , who were aduerse to S. Chrysostom , and took part with Theophilus , ( quoted Centur 5. col . 663. ) saith . I the last of all , and a sinner , yet hauing the throne of the great Apostle Peter committed to me , do separat and remoue , thee and her from receauing the immaculat mysteries of Christ our God : and euery Bishop , or any other of the Clergy which shall presume to minister or giue to you those holy Mysteries after the time that you haue read these present lettres of my Order , I prononce them voyd of their dignity , &c. Arsacius , whom you placed in the Bishops throne in Chrysostoms roome though he be dead , we depose , and command that his name be not written in the role of Bishops . In like manner we depose all other Bishops which of purposed aduice , haue communicated with him &c. To the deposing of Theophilus ( Bishop of Alexandria , we add excommunication &c. The Centurists Cent. 5. col . 778. say of the Fathers of that 5. Century , They did affirm erroniously that antiquity had attributed the principality of priestood to the Roman Bishop aboue all . And Col. 782. they set down the general Councell of Calcedons petition to Pope Leo , desiring his Holyness to confirm their Decrees , and [ Col : 823. ] the words of the Councell of Carthage to Pope Innocentius , supplicating that to the statutes of their mediocrity might be added the authority of the Sea Apostolick . They further acknowledged that the Pope summoned S. Athanasius and his aduersaries to appeare at Rome : And that Athanasius obeyed , wherof see also Nicephor . l. 9. c. 6. and hist. Tripartit . l. 4. cap. 6. D. Philip. Nicolai de Regno Christ. l. 2. pag. 149. confesseth , that Julius Pope exercised the supreme spiritual Jurisdiction , as given ex praescripto & jure divino , and as St. Peters Successor ; as also Pope Damasus , and Pope Jnnocentius afterwards . See Iulius epistle to the Churches of the East . Cent●r . 4. col . 735. and col . 746. how Pope Julius saith to them , are ye ignorant of the custom to write to vs first , to the end from hence may be determined what is just &c. For , what things wee have received from St. Peter the Apostle , those I signifie to you . [e] ¶ Functius ( a Protestant writter ) in lib. 7. Chronolog . anno Christi 494. saith , Henaias was the first who raised war in the Church against Images . Nicep● ▪ in Hist ▪ Eccl. lib. 16. c. 27. saith . Henaias iste primus ( O audacem animam & os impudens ) vocem illam evomuit , Christi & eorum qui illi placuere , Imagines venerandas non esse . August . haer . 53. Epiphan . haer . 75. mentions Aerius his nouelties against fasting appointed by the Church , prayer for the dead , &c. Wherof M. r Fulk in his answer to a counterfeit Catholick pag 44. c. 41. saith : I will not dissemble &c. Aerius taught that prayer for the dead was unprofitable , as wittnes both Epiphan . and Austin . which they count for an error . S. Aug. de Eccl. dog . c. 73. saith : We belieue that the bodyes of Saints , and chiefly the Reliques of holy Martyrs , ought to be most sincearly honored , as if they had bin members of Christ ; if any contradicts this sentence he is belieued not to be a Christian , but an Eunomian or a Vigilantian . S. Aug : lib : 3. c. 4. contra lit . Petil chargeth and reproueth Petilian , with his foul mouth , he proceedeth to the dispraysing of Monks of Monasteries . He also chargeth the Donatists Circumcellions with the same crime saying they use to say what meaneth the name of Monks , shew where it is to be found in Scripture ? Aug. in Psalm . 132. S. Hierom contra Vigillan . c. 1. saith : What do the Churches of the East ? What those of Egypt ▪ and of the Apostolick Sea ? Which receaue Priests either Virgins or Continent ; or if they haue wiues , they cease to be husbands . S. Epiphanius haer . 59. But you will tell me , that in some places Priests , Deacons and Subdeacons , haue children . But that is not according to the Canon but according to mens minds , &c. S. Aust. de vnit Eccl. c. 12. reporteth the Donatists as heretiks , for saith he , they vsed to collect certaine places of Scripture , & ea detorquere in Ecclesiam Dei , that it might seem to haue perished in the whol world . And in Psalm . 101. conc . 2. relateth their words , the Church hath apostatised and perished in all nations ; this they say who are not in the Church . [ O impudentem vocem . ] [g] Bishop Ieuell in his sermon at Pauls Cross , and iterated challeng , appeales ( for the truth and purity of the Protestant Religion ) to S. Gregory the great , Bishop of Rome . And so also doth Whitaker in respons . ad Campian . rat . 5. pag. 50. in behalf of all the English Clergy ; his words are , O Campian , the speech of Jeuell was most true and constant when provoking you to the 600. yeares he offered you , &c. It is the offer of us all , the same we do all promise , and will be as good as our vvords ; which was to be Catholicks if any Father of the first 600. yeares ( wherof S. Gregory the Pope was named ) had any sentence in fauour of Popery . Bishop Godvvin [h] in his Catalogue of the Bishops of England , pag. 3. saith , that blessed and holy Father S. Gregory was the occasion of replanting the Christian Faith in our Country , The same in substance saith Whitaker &c. contra Duraeum lib. 5. pag. 394. D. r Humfrey in Iesuitismi part . 2. rat . 5. pag. 624 Gregorius nomine quidem magnus , & re vera magnus Vir magnis & multis divinae gratiae dotibus , &c. M. r Thomas Bell in his suruey of Popery pag. 187. termeth him , S. Gregory surnamed the Great , the holy and learned Bishop of Rome . S. Damascen a Father of the Greck Church in Orat. de Defunctis saith , Gregory Bishop of the more ancient Rome ( as all haue known ) as well for Holiness of life , as learning , excelent and famous . Isidore de Scriptor . Eccles. c. 27. saith , Gregory Bishop of the Apostolick Sea of Rome &c. was by the grace of the holy Ghost so greatly endued with light of knowledg , as no Doctor of this present age or in tyms past was equal to him . S. Gregories communion with the Bishops of Greece may be seene l. 4. epist. 56. vniversis Episcopis per Hollodiam &c. l. 1. epist. 43. & l. 4. epist. 7. Vniversis Episcopis per Illyricum . d. l. 4. epist. 53. Episcopo Corinthiorum . For the Patriarchs of Constantinople , see l. 7. ep . 64. Ioanni Episcopo Syracusano , ep . 65. For Africk , see in l. 7. ep . 30. & l. 5. ep . 60. His Epistles to Eulogius Patriarch of Alexandria , and see l. 4. ep . 3. & l. 6. ep . 32. Dominico Episcopo Cartaginensi . item l. 6. ep . 2. Columbo Episcopo Numidiae . For Asia , see his Epis. to Isicius Bishop of Hierusalem l. 9. ep . 40. see further l. 9. ep . 27. Maximiano Episcopo Arabiae . In his epistle to the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch . l. 6. ep . 24.32 . & ep . 24. [i] See Holinsheads Chronicle vol. 1. l. 5. c. 21. pag. 102. acknowledging how St. Austin Monck restored sight to one that was blind , as Bede recounts it hist. l. 2 : c. 2. whervpon the Britans present ther at , acknowledged that his doctrin was true . See Holinshead also pag. 100. and Mr. Fox Act. and mon. printed 1576. pag. 117. and Bishop Godwin in his Catalogue of Bishops , pag. 4. see Holinshead also in his great Chronicle volum . 2. pag. 108. & 109. and Fox cit . pag. 120. & 121. [k] This letter of St. Gregor . is extant in Bede hist. l. 1. c. 31. and mentioned by Holinshead pag. 102. [l] " Dr. Humfrey in Jesuitismi part . 2. rat . 5. & 627. [m] The Century writers of Magdeburg in their 6. Century cap. 10. col . 748. and collecting ( elswher in the same Booke ) out of St. Gregories own writings by them cited his Popish Tenets , They do in the Index of that 6. Century , after the first edition therof , at the word Gregory , specially set down his supposed Popish errors , as Mass , Purgatory &c. and particularly , with his claim and exercise of Iurisdiction , and Supremacy over all Churches , col . 425. usque ad 432. Concerning his other Popish doctrin , see them c. 10. col . 748.369.376.381.384.364 . & seqs . 693. & seq . & col . 425. usque ad 432. [n] Carion " in Chron. l. 4. pag. 567. & seq . [o] Luke Osiander in his Epitome Hist. Eccl. Centur. 6. pag. 288. & seq . & 289. John Bale in Act. Rom. Pontif. edit . Basil. 1558. pag. 44.45.46.47 . & Centur. 1. fol. 3. Fulck in his Confutation of Purgatory pag : 333. Mr Willet in his Te●rasticon papismi pag : 122. Osiander in Epit●m . Centur : 6. pag : 290. [a[ Luther in his epist. to his father extant . to . 2. Wittemberg . fol. 269. saith , It seemeth that Sathan did forsee somthing in me of what he now suffers , and therfore endeavoured to destroy me by incredible stratagems . [b] Mallius Luthers own Scholler in loc . commun . pag. 42. & 43. saith that always after the apparitions of firebrands , in the night to Luther , his head did ake grieuously . And at Coburg one of these apparitions of three flying firebrands was so terrible , that he was almost cast into a sound , in prevention wherof , oyle was distilled into his eare , and his feet rubb'd with hott Cloaths &c. [d] See Luthers words " in Sleydan l. 13. fol. 177. [e] Luther . in appellatione " prima ad Leonem X. tom . 1. Wittemberg . fol. 219. [f] " Luther apud Sleydan . l. 13. fol. 177.178 . [c] Cochleus ▪ a vertuous and learned man , who lived with Luther many years , and writ his life very exactly from year to year , sets down therin as a known truth , how that one day when the Ghospell ( Matthew 9. ) of Christs casting out a dumb and deaf Devill , was read in the quire , Luther fell down to the ground , and cryed , non sum , non sum , I am not ; and without doubt if Luther was possessed , it was not by a dumb Devill . [g] Sleidan . l. 1. fol. 10. saith ; Martin Luthers Appellation from the Pope being contemned , his offers despised ; looking for no more help nor health at the Popes hands , was through extreme necessity brought to appeale from the Bishop of Rome . See also Osiander in Epitom . cent . 16. c. 25. p. 63. [h] Belarm . " praefat . de Consiliis . [i] Luther tom . 2. Wittemberg . " fol. 374. & 375. The Governors and Pastors of Christs sheep have power to teach , but the sheep must give judgment whether they propose the voice of Christ , or of strangers &c. Let the Pope , Bishops , Councells , &c , ordain what they please we will not hinder it , but the judgment shal remain with us , who are Christs sheep , and heare his voice , whether they propose the truth and things agreable to our Pastor , and they must yeeld , subscribe , and obey our censure and sentence . [k] Luther in Colloq . Mensal . fol. 158. [l] " Luther in praefat . in tom . Germ. [m] Luther tom . Germ. fol. 9. And t. 2. Wittēberg . of an . 1562. lib. de abroganda Missa privata , fol. 244. [n] Luther tom . 5. Wittenb . in Galat. c. 1. fol. 290. & in colloq . Mensal . fol. 273. [o] Luther tom . 7. Wittenberg . anno 1558. in l. de Missa privata fol. 443. & 228. & tom . 6. Ger. fol. 28. in lib. de Missa angulari . [p] Luther in lib. de servo arbitrio contra Erasm . in the first edition faith : Lay aside all the armes of Orthodox antiquity , schooles of Diuinity , authority of Councels and Popes , the consent of so many ages , and of all the Christian people , we receiue nothing but Scripturs , yet so , that we alone haue the authority of interpreting them . That which we interpret is the sence of the holy Ghost , that which others bring , though they be great , though many , proceeds from the spirit of Sathan and madness . [q] Mr. Chark in his answer to Censure &c. as also Mr. Fulk in his Treatise against the defence of the Censure pag. 234. [r] Sutcliff in his book de vera Cathol . Christi Ecclesia pag. 299. when he saith , Lutherus autem nihil aliud peccavit , quam quod ut homo Germanus & non ita pridem Monachus &c. [s] Hospinian in Hist. Sacramentar . part . altera , after that in his prolegomen . had sayd , that Luther was a man adorned vvith excellent gifts , vvith the light of heavenly knowledg , zeale of Gods glory , and raised up to restore the Ghospells light &c. affirmeth fol. 131. That Luther being instructed by the Devill that the Mass vvas vvicked , and being overcom with Sathans arguments , did ( therupon ) abandon the Mass. [t] Luther tom . 7. Wittenberg . an . 1558. fol. 229. setteth down the Devills words saying to Luther ( as being then one vvith the Papists ) Behold your bouldness ; you do these things in darknes , and abuse the name of the Church &c. And fol. 230. why therfore in the privat Mass dost thou blasphemously goe against the cleer words and institution of Christ &c. And fol : 229. going about to prove that Luther may not in the Mass communicat alone , he aleadgeth the example of the other Sacraments , which a man can not vse for himself , saying , If a man absolues himself it is no Absolution ; If he anoints himself it is no Unction : If one marries to himself , it is no mariage &c. Fo , these are your seaven Sacraments ( so plainly yet was Luther a Roman Catholik ) If therfore a man can not Minister to himself any of your Sacraments , how com● that thou canst Minister to thyself alone this greatest Sacrament ? &c. Dost thou think that Christ did institute the Sacrament for thee alone , and that in thy privat Mass thou dost consecrat the body and bloud of the Lord ? [v] Joannes Regius in his book intituled Liber Apologeticus &c. under the Title Consideratio Censurae pa. 123. saith of Luthers instruction from the Devill . What doth this availe to confute Luthers doctrin of the word of God ? And how doe you know that it vvas an evell spirit vvho told this to Luther ? ( We know it by Luthers own Confession ) or if he vvere an evell spirit it doth not follow that he told lyes , because the Devills speak truth som tyms , vvhen they speak that vvhich the Scripture vvittnesseth . [w] D. r Morton in Apolog. Catholica part . 1. l. 2. c. 21. pag. 351. saith : Apud Surium liquet Diabolum in specie Angelica apparuisse statimque Abbatem ut Missam celebraret hortabatur , alledging there in his margent , Delrium I●s . lib. 4. de Magia cap. 1. quaest . ● . §. 5. [x] Luther in lib. de captiv . Babylon . saith : Whosoeuer is a Christian let him be most certain that wee are all equaly Priests , that is , we have the same power in ministring the word and Sacrament . See more of this alledged out of the edition of Jeneua by Cnoglerus in his Symbula tria , pag. 157. And in loc . con . clas . 2. pag. 136. & 138. See also Luther in assert . damnatis per Leonem X. art . 3. where he maintains that women can absolue from sins . [y] S. Augustin contra Faustum Manichaeum , lib. 20. cap. 21. saith of the Mass celebrated on Saints days , Although in memory of Martyrs , yet not to Martyrs do we erect Altars . Et lib. 22. de Civitate Dei cap : 10. Vpon which Altars we offer Sacrifice not to Martyrs , but to the God of Martyrs , ( & lib. & cap. 27. de Civitate Dei , & contra Faustum Manichaeum libro 20. cap. 2● . For which of the faithfull hath at any tyme heard the Priests standing at the Altar ( which in the honor of God is erected upon the body of a Martyr . ) to say in seruice tyme : O Peter , Paul or Cyprian , I offer to thee Sacrifice . The protestant writers Eusebius & Altkircher us doe confess that the Arians seeing the whole Catholik Church by unanimous consent offer Sacrifice in the Mass to God the Father ( mistaking as Fulgentius says lib. 2. ad Monimum cap. 3. that the same was not also offered to the son ) argued against Catholicks , that the Father was greater then the Son , lib. de mystico & incruento Sacrificio adversus abominandam Missae superstitionem , pag. 241. And pag. 236. the same Protestant Author doth acknowledg and set down S. Irenaeus his Argument against Marcion the heretick , deduced from the Churches receiued doctrin concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass , and this was in the next age to the Apostles . S. Augustin lib. 9. Confes. cap. 12. sayth , that the Sacrifice of our price was offered for his Mother Monica being dead . And de verb. Apost . serm . 34. That the vniuersal Church doth obserue as deliuered from their Forefathers , to pray for the faithfull deceased in the Sacrifice , and also to offer the Sacrifice for them . Conc. 1. Nicen. Can. 14. saith , the holy Councel hath bin informed that in some places and Cities the Deacons distribute the Sacrament to Priests , neither rule nor custom hath deliuered , that they who haue not power to offer Sacrifice , should distribut the body of Christ to them who offer . Concil . Bracarense 3. Can. 3. Concil . 12. Tolet can . 5. [1.] S. Augustinus de Civitate Dei lib. " 10. cap. 19. [2.] S. Cyprian lib. 2. epist. 3. & Aug. " cit . cap. 20. [3] Aug. cit . 16. & Concil . Tolet. 1. Can. 5. Cyprian de Coena Dom. post med . Origen in num . hom . 23. [4] Cyprian lib. 2. epist. 3. & Augustin . " de Civit. Dei , lib. 16. cap. 22. & passim . Aug. [5] de Civit. Dei , lib. 22. cap. 8. & lib. 20. contra Faustum cap. 18. & Hieron . lib. 3. contra Pelag. August . tom . 8. in Psalm . 33. con . 2. saith : Ipse de Corpore et Sanguine suo instituit Sacrificium secundum Ordinem Melchisedech . S. Chrisost. in lib. 1. cor . hom . 24. saith of Christ : Ipsum mutavit Sacrificium , et pro caede brutorum , seipsum jussit offerri . [6] Aug. in Enchirid. " cap. 110. & de cura pro mortuis , cap. 18. [7] Aug. de Civit. Dei , lib. 10. cap. 20. & Cyprian de coena Dom. [8] S. Ireneus lib. 4. cap. 32. & August . de " gratia novi Testam . cap. 18. [9] Aug. de Civit. Dei lib. 17. cap. 20. S. Clement the Apostles scholler in Apost . Constit. edit . Antverp . 1564. lib. 6. cap. 22. fol. 123. [10] Tertulian ad Scapul . cap. ● . saith , Sacrificamus " pro salute Imperatoris . [11] Chrysost. " hom . 27. in Acta . Apost . Pro infirmis etiam sacrificamus . [12] Aug. de Civit. Dei lib. 22. cap. 8. saith , one went and offered ( in the house infected ) the Sacrifice of Christs Body , praying that the vexation might cease , and by Gods mercy it ceased immediatly . [13] Basil in Liturgia fol. 40. Chrisost. in Mart. Rom. 83. Cyprian de Coena Dom. prope initium . Origen . Athan. &c. quoted by Crastonius cit . [a] Osiander a Protestant writer , epist. cent . 16. pag. 90. saith Leonard Keppen on the 7. day of April 1523. brought to Wittemberg nine Nuns from the Monastery Nimptsen , among which number one was Catharin Boren● , whom afterwards Luther married . Peter Martyr , and Bucer married Nuns . Luthers example of marriag was followed by all the Disciples , though professed Monks , not only in Germany , but in euery other country : Here with us , these Protestant Bishops ensuing , Hoop●r of Worcester , Barlow of Chicester , Dounham of Chester , Scory of Herefort , Barkley of Bath and Wells , Couerdale of Excester , all Monks ; Cranmer of Canterbury , and Sandes of York , Priests . [b] S. Austin haeres . 82. saith of Jouinian teaching the Lawfulness of Priests and Votaries mariage . This heresy was ( quickly ) extinct , neyther could it euer preuail to the deceiuing ( so much ) as of any ( one ) Priest. And ( lib. 2 , retrac . cap. 22. ) that Jouinian with his heresy deceiued but only nonnullas Sanctimoniales , some few Nuns . But Luther deceiued Priests , Monks , and Nuns : or rather they concurred with him to deceiue others . [c] Luther de seculari potestate in tom . 6. Germ. saith : Among Christians no man can or ought to be Magistrat , but each one is to other equaly subject &c. Among Christian men none is superior save only Christ ▪ And in his Sermons englishd by William Gage , pag. 97. and tom . 7. Wittemberg . fol. 327. he saith , Therfore is Christ our Lord that he may make us such , as himself is , and as he cannot suffer himself to be tyed and bound by laws &c. So also ought not the conscience of a Christian to suffer them . Afterwards he taught to moderat this liberty by explaining , that subjects ought to haue an obedience rather of policy then conscience , which is as much to say as to dissemble , and obey when they cannot help it , but if euer they can rebell with probability of success , they may do it with a safe conscience . And therfore in the same Sermons pag. 261. he doth admonish we obey the ciuil Magistrat , prouided it be not pretended that it is necessary for saluation to obey . Most Protestants follow this obedience of policy not of conscience , see Whitaker in resp . at Rat. Camp. rat . 8. pag. 154. And Danaeus against Belarmin pag. 1127. [d] Luther in Comment . ad cap. 2. ad Galat. saith . When it is taught , Faith in Christ doth indeed justify , but with all its necessary to keep Gods commandments , there Christ is denyed , and faith is abolished ; because that which is proper of God alone , is attributed to the commandements of God , or to the Law , See also Luther in Colloq . Mensal . Ger. fol. 152. & 153. M. r Willet in his Synopsis Papismi pag. 564. saith . The Law remaineth stil impossible to be kept by vs through the weakness of our flesh ; neither doth God giue vs ability to keep it , but Christ hath fulfilled it for vs. D. r Whitaker de Eccles. pag. 301. We say that if a man haue an a●t of faith , sins do not hurt him , this truly Luther affirming , this we all say . Hofman de Poenitentiâ edit . 1540. lib. 2. fol. 113. saith , according to the Protestant principles . Whosoeuer truly belieueth , suffereth God to work for him , and dispose eternall life for him ; himself taking no labor nor working any thing for himself . [a] Lutherus lib. de servo arbitrio contra Eras. edit . 1. Cnoglerus symbola tria pag. 152. & nullus & nemo G. 6 pag. 153. [b] The Catholik Doctrin of the Church of England pag. 103. in the explanation of the 20. article of Religion , saith ; Authority is given to the Church , and to every member of sound judgment in the same , to judg in controversies of faith , and so in their places to embrase the truth , and to avoyd and improve Antichristianity and errors ; and this is not the privat opinion of our Church , but the straight commandment of God him-self particularly to all teachers and hearers of Gods word , and generally unto the whole Church , and also the Iudgment of our Godly Brethren in forreign Countreys . [c] Mr. Bilson , Bishop of Winchester in his true difference &c. part . 2. pag. 353. saith , The people must be Discerners and Judg. of that which is taught . The Catholik Doctrin of the Church of England art . 19. Proposition 6. pag. 94. saith , The visible Church may , and from tyme to tyme hath errd both in Doctrin and conversation . pag. 95 concludeth , This with us , the Churches in their Confessions do acknowledg . Dr. Whitaker de Eccles . pa. 301. We say that if a man have an art of faith , sins do not hurt him ; this truly Luther affirmeth , this we also say . [d] Jrenaeus l. 1. c. 5. saith , Videmus nunc & eorum inconstantem Sententiam , cum sint duo vel tres , quemadmodum de iisdem eadem non dicunt . And c. 18. Cum autem discrepant ad invicem , & doctrina , & traditione , & qui recentiores eorum adnoscuntur , affectant per singulos dies novum aliquid invenire &c. Durum est enim omnium describere sententias . Tertullian : de Praescrip . adv . haer . cap. 42. saith , Mentior si non etiam a regulis suis variant inter se , dum vnusquisque proinde modulatur quae accepit , quemadmodum de suo arbitrio composuit &c. Denique inspect haereses omnes in multis cum authoribus suis dissentientes deprehunduntur . And see cap. 37. Chrystom . oper . imperfect . in Matth. hom . 20. saith , Omnes infideles qui sub Diabolo sunt , non sunt vnum nec vnum sapiunt , sed sunt per diversas opiniones dispersi : alius quidem sic dicit , alius sic , &c. Eo modo perfidia Haereticorum qui nunquam sapiunt vnum , sed quot sunt , tot sententias habent . Hilar. lib. 7. de Trinit . saith , Haeretici igitur omnes contra Ecclesiam veniunt , sed dum Haeretici omnes se invicem vincunt , nihil tamen sibi vincunt : victoria enim eorum , Ecclesiae triumphus ex omnibus est , dum in eo Haeresis contra alteram pugnat &c. S. Athanas. Orat. 1. contra Arianos , saith , Jllud quoque prorsus admirabile , omnes quot sunt Haereses in fingendo , diversa pugnantiaque inter se adferre , nec alibi nisi in falsitate sibi invicem consentire . See the Centurists [e] almost in every age attributing the Roman Catholick Miracles to the Devill , V. g. Centur. 9. cap. 13. And Osiander in Epitom . Cent. 9. pag. 63. saith the same , and in particular of St. Bernards , St. Francis's Miracles &c. Whitaker [f] de Ecclesia pag. 348. And " Daneus in his answer to Belarm . part . 1. pag. 784. [g] Luther in proefat . assertionis articulorum a Leone Pontif. damnatorum , saith : Scripture must be the Iudg of all controuersies ; and that it is cleerer then the comments of the Fathers upon it . But that to the proud and vnfaithfull ( Papists he meanes ) it is obscure . See him also in lib. de servo arbitrio . [h] Luther in his Translation , to assert his justification by only faith , added to the text of Scripture the word alone , against all Originals and Copies . Swinglius to maintain that the Body and Bloud of Christ were not realy present in the Sacrament of the Altar , in steed of Christs words , This is my Body , translateth , This signifieth my Body . See herafter more of this , and of the English Bibles corruptions . [i] Luther tom . 2. lib. de Ministris Ecclesiae instituendis , fol. 368. & 369. & lib. de abrog . Miss . privat . tom . 2. fol. 249. & in lib. de captiv . Babylon . cap. de Ordine . Luther in assertionibus damnatis per Leonem cap. 10. art . 13. saith . In the Sacrament of Confession and remission of sin , the Pope doth no more then the meanest Priest , nay , where a Priest is not , every Christian can do as much , though a child or a woman &c. That in the absence of a Priest a child or a woman , and every Christian may absolve is cleer out of Math. 18. Where Christ saith to all Christians , Quodcumque solveritis super terram , &c. An' Bullē's incest and leaudness was afterwards punished with her death , and that of her brothers of Brue●ton , Weston , Norris , and Sineton , all of the Kings privy Chamber . Another escaped death because he advertised his Majesty of her immodesty before the mariage . S. Ambrose vseth this very argument to the same purpose . Sand. lib. 1. Cochlaeus lib. contra Morison . The Kings of France pretēded to the Gallical liberties : and the Kings of Spaine to their Sicilian Monarchy and other privileges . The kings of England also when they were Roman Catholiks pretended to the like priviledges , presentations &c. Stat Henry 8 34. & 35. Be it enacted tha● all manner of books of the old and new Testament in English ▪ being of the crafty , ●●alce , and ●ntrue Tran●lation of William Tyndall , and all other books and writings in the english tongue , teaching or compassing any matter of Christian Religion contrary to that doctrin which since the year of our Lord 1540. is , hath or shall be set forth by his Majesty is cleerly and vtterly abolished . The first Reformers of the Prelatick protestant Church of England . Statut 28. Henry 8 cap 17. an 1536 See his letters in Fox . 1279 and in Stow pag. 1036. Doctor Bruges in his post script to D. r Pearson edit . 1660. (a) See the ancient Fathers affirming it was the constant practise and principle of Hereticks to appeale to Scripture alone . S. Aust●n l de vnit Eccl & lib. cont ▪ a Maximinum S. Hilarius l. contra Constantium . S. Basi●ius l. de Spiritu S. c. 27. & 29. S Epiphani●s haer 69 ▪ 73. (b) S. Athanasius in l. 1 ▪ de decret Nicen . Synodi contra . Euseb. (c) S. Epiphanius haer . 64. Theodor●● lib. de haeres . (d) August de fide & oper c. 14 & de haer . c. 54. Mat ▪ 19.27 1. Cor 7. v. 25.28.38 . (e) The Protestant Bishops ▪ are wel pleased to see themselves religiously worship't or respected , and yet exclaim against Catholicks for shewing the like respest to Saints . [f] See Martin Luther the first founder of Protestancy ep . ad Bohem. in declarat . Euchar. & in ser. de Euch. hath these words . Although truly it were an excellent thing to use both kinds in the Eucharist ( and Christ in this thing hath commanded nothing as necessary ) yet it were better to follow peace and vnity which Christ hath commanded vs to follow ▪ then to contend about the kinds . And lib. de Captiv . Babyl . Cap. de Euch. They sin not against Christ who vse one kind , seing Christ hath not commanded to vse it , but hath left it to the wil of every one , &c. Philip Melancton in 2. edit . loc . com . impres . Argent . an . 1525. fol. 78. He erreth that thinketh it impious to eat swin's flesh . As also these things are indifferent and placed in our power , and so I judg of the Eucharist , that they sin not who knowing , and believing this liberty do vse either part of the sign . Bucer alloweth the same indifferency , and Iewel in his reply to Harding pag. 108.109 . & 110. John Pezibram a Bohemian Protestant in his book de professione fidei Cathol . cap. 19. Heere fearing God and taking notice of the evil custums of others , I do confess that I do not intend to condemn or censure for hereticks any such persons of the Church as do impugn the communion of the faithful vnder both kinds : which yet of necessity must have don , if he had thought that Christ had recommanded it . The 2. Councel of Carthage contradicts this article Can. 2. Omnibus placet , that Bishops Priests , and Deacons , &c. abstaine from wives , that what the Apostles have taught , and hath bin observed by antiquity , we may keep . See Clement l. 6. Constit. Ap. c. 17. & Consil. A●●●rcan . 10. & Concil . Neocesariense c. 1 & Cons●l Nic. can . 34. And Euseb. de demonstrat . Evangelica lib. 1 ▪ c 9. Epiph. haer . 59. ante med . Bas●l ep ▪ 1. ad Amphilocium ca. 6 & epist. 17 ad Paragonū Presbiterum , and Cicil. Hierosolomy ▪ Catech 12. See the new Ritual of the Church of England published since his Majesties happy restauration . D. r Heylin Eccles. restau . Q. Mary pag. 19. D. r Heylin cit pag. 33.34 ▪ & 35. Heylin pag. 35 ▪ Cap. 14 ▪ D. Heylin Eccles. resta . in the Histor. Q. Mary pag. 43. Stat. an . 1. & ▪ 2. Pbil. & Mar ▪ cap. 8. Dr. Heylin Q Elizabeth pag. 107. Act. 14. v. 23. & tom . 5.22 . * See thee nulity of the Prelatick Clergy of England cap. 2. and D. Bramhal in his vindication therof pa. 92. & pag. 10● . Dr. Stapleton in his return of vntruths against Jewel fol. 130. and in his Counterblast against Horn fo . 79 & 301 Dr. Harding Confut. Apol. fol. 57. & 60 & part 2. fol. 59. edit . 1563 & fol. 57. & 59 edi . 1566 Stat. 8. Elizabeth . 1. Stat. 8. Eliz. 8. See the nullity of the Clergy and Church of England edit . 1659. Bramhal in his vindic●tion pag. 132. Demonstrat . Discipl . cap. 8. ¶ . 1 & 2. pag. 43. 2. part . See this Act of Parliamēt in the life of the Queen of Scots , Written by Mr. V. dal , and dedicated to King James pag. 200. & 201. See 1 ▪ p. se● 1. Primat Bramhal's succession and vindication of the Prelatick Clergy was answered by the Author of the nullity of the Church of England , and by an other book after he had both these āswers by him ; and durst not reply : but rather cōcurred with his Brethren in adding the words Priests and Bishop to their forms of ordination , as appeareth in their last edition of the Commō praier , rites &c. of the Church of England . See in the epistle Dedicatory , and our Preface , the Act of Parliament preferring any natural issue of Queen Elizabeth to the Crown before the royal family of the Stewards . See Udal ( a Protestāt ) in his history of the Queen of Scots , wher he proves how the bastard M●rry , by the means of John Knox and others that he employed ; changed the ancient Religion in Scotland to the end him self might be made King by the Protestants ; and how afterwards by the same way he murthered King James his Father , and persecuted King James , and his mother , all vnder the pretext of a Protestant Reformation . Luther in epist. ad Argentinenses , anno 1525. Christum à nobis primò vulgatumau demus gloriari . See part 2 sect 5. n. 5. See M. r Belson Bishop of Winchester , in his true difference &c. part . 2. pag. 353. See M. r Rogers in the Catholick doctrin of the Church of England , pag. 103. pervsed ād published by the Lawful authority of the Church of England , an . 1633. Calvin in Dan c. 6. v. 22. & 23. Abdicant se potestate terreni Principes dū insurgunt cōtra Deum &c potius ergo cōspicere oportet in illorum capita , quam ●llis parere &c. (a) Perkins in his exposition vpon the Creed p. 400. vve say that befor the days of Luther , for the space of many hundred years an vniversal Apostacy overspread the vvhole face of the earth , and that our Church vvas not then visible to the world . Mr. Napper upon the revelations , dedicated to King Jams pag. 143. saith , from Constantin's time vntill these our days even 1260 ; years the Pope and his Clergy hath possessed the out ward visible Church of christianity . [b] vpon thy vvalls ö Jerusalem have I set vvatchmen all the day , and all the night for ever , they shal not be silent Esay 62.6 . see Ephes. 4.11 . (c) Dr. Powel in his consideration of the Papist's supplication pag , 43. Buchanan . in loc . com . pa. 466. And Whitaker contra Camp. rat . 7. pag. 101. & 102. & contr . Duc. pag. 277. This Whitaker after vainly attempting to shew the beginning of Popery , and seing the insufficiency of his particular instances , doth at length acknowledg his weakness , and runs with the rest of his Protestant Champion● to divert the Reader from the evidence of truth so deceitful , and silly similituds . (d) Luther tom . 2. Wittemb . anno 1551. lib. de se. arbit . pag. 434 [e] Luther in par●a Confess . & to . 3. Germ fol. 55. in Colloq . mons . Germ. fol. 210. (f) Mr. Gabriel Povvel in his consideration of the Papists supplication pag. 70. [g] Fox act . and Mon. pa. 40 Jewel in his Apology p. 4. c. 4.5 ▪ 2. and in his defence of the Apology edi . 1571. p. 426 (h) Andreas Muse●lus in praef . in libellum Germ. de Diaboli Tyranide . Nicolaus Androphius Conc. ● de Luthero . [i] Conrad . Schlusletbur . Catal. haeret . l. 13. pa. 314 & seqq . (k) M. Cartwright in M. whit gifts defence pag. 17. [l] Luther contra Regem Angliae , fol. 344. I pass not if a thousand Austins , a thousand Cyprians , a thousand King Henry's Churches stood against me . Et libro de se. arbit . contra Eras. edit . 1. Lay a side all the arms of orthodox antiquities &c. see also nullus and nemo G. 6. pag. 153. And Cnoglerus his symbola tria pag. 152. [m] Danaeus pag. 939. in his answer to Belarm . of the confess'd austerity of life of S. Bernard , S. Francis , S. Dominick , the Monks &c. says they were all fools . And M. r Willet who maketh a special Treatise against the austerity of the ancient Fathers in pag. 358. of his Synopsis , reproved S. Bazil , S. Gregory Nazianzen for plucking down themselves by immoderat fasting , and concludeth : Wher in all the Scripturs learn'd these men thus to punish their bodys ? Oseander reprehended S. Anthony the Eremit for the same , and saith his Religion was superstition . And Calvin lib. 4 cap. 12. sect . 8. that the austerity of the ancient Fathers , was not excusable and differeth much from God's prescript , and is very dangerous . And Iunius in his animadversions pag. 610. & 611 , attributs S. Simon Stilletes his austerity and Miracles to cunjuring melancoly , and his prophecies to suggestion from the Devill . [n] Bucer one of the Composers of the Common prayer-book and of the Religion of the Church of England ( whom Mr. Withguift Archbishop of Canterbury , in his defence pag. 522. termeth a Reverend learned , painfull , sound Father ) teacheth in his applauded work of the Kingdom of Christ , and translated into English , that it is lawful to procure liberty by a libel of divorce to marry again , not only in the case of adultery , but in case of the on 's departure from the other , in case of homicide , theft or repairing to the company , or banquets of immodest persons ; likewise in case of incurable infirmity of the woman by Child birth , or of the man by lunacy or otherwise . See his own words in the aforsaid work l. 2. c. 26. & 27. pag. 99. & 100. & cap. 28. pag. 101. saies , that who ever will not induce his mind to love his wife with conjugal charity , that man is commanded by God to put her away and marry an other . And in Math. cap. 19. saith , that the wife repudiated either justly or vnjustly , if she hath no hopes to return to her husband and desirs to live piously , and wants a husband , may be marryed to an other without sin . The whole University of Cambridg comends this Bucer for a man most holy and truly devine , and this letter of commendations is printed with Bucer's Book , wherin he teacheth this doctrin , see it pag. 944. Luther's words in Serm. de Matrim . are notorious , If the wife will not or can not come , let the mayd come . Et ibd . fol. 123. tom . 5. Wittensb●rg . he is so vehement against the wifes refusal of her husband's bed , that he saith if the Magistrat omit it's duty in punishing her , the husband must imagin that his wife is stole away by theeves , and dead , and consider how to marry an other , for ( saith he yet further ) we cannot stop St. Paul's mouth &c. his words are plain , that a brother or sister are free from the law of wed lock , if the one depart , or do not consent to dwel with the other , neither doth he say that this may be don once only , but leaveth it free that so often as the case shall require he may either proceed or stay . In which case ( as he signifieth to Wittemb . f●l . 112 a man may have ten or more wives fled from him and yet living . Nay he doubteth not in case of adultery to give liberty even to the offending advlteror to fly into an other country and marry againe . Luther loc . cit . fol. 123. & Melancton consil . Theol. part . 1· pag , 648. [o] Mr. Whitgift the Protestant Archbishop of Canterbury in his defence pag. 472. saith , The doctrin taught and professed by our Bishops at this day , is much more perfect and sound then it commonly was in any age since the Apostles tims . & pa. 473. asuredly you are not able so recken in any age since the Apostles time any Company of Bishops that taught and held so perfect and sound doctrin in all points , as the Bishops of England do at this time . In the truth of doctrin our Bishops be not only comparable with the old Bishops , but in many degrees to be preferred before them . &c [a] Hooker lib. 1. Polit. Eccles , pag. 86. & lib. 2. sect . 5. pag. 192. It is not the word of God which doth or possibly can assure vs that we do wel to think it his word ; for if any book of Scripture did give testimony of all , yet stil that Scripture which gives credit to the rest , would require an other Scripture to give credit vnto it . Neither could we come to any pause wher on to rest , vnless besids Scripture there were some thing which might assure vs. &c. Which he lib. 3. sect . 8. pag. 146. & lib. 2. sect . 7. pag. 116. Acknowledged to be the authority of God's Church . Whitaker against Stapleton lib. 2. cap. 6. pag. 270. saith : The testimony of the spirit being privat and secred , is vnfit to teach and refell others , and therfor we must recurr to Ecclesiastical Tradition , an argument saith he ibid. cap. 4. pag. 300. Wherby may be argued and convinced what books be Canonical , and what be not . M. r Fulk in his answer to a counterfeit Catholick pag. 5. saith , the Church of Christ hath judgment to discern true writings from counterfeit , and the word of God from the writings of men , and this judgment she hath of the holy Ghost . M , r Jewel in his defence of the Apology pag. 201. And afther the edition of 1571. pa. 242. saith , the Church of God hath the spirit of wisdom wherby to discern true Scripture from false . [*] See Pomeran . in Epist. ad Rom. cap. 4. Vitus Theodorus in annot . Test. pag. vl , . The Century writers of Magdeburg cent 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. & cent . 2. lib. 3. cap. 4. Hafferoferus in loc . Theol. lib. 3. stat . 3. loc . 7. pag. 222. Adamus Fancisci in Margarita Theol. pag. 448. giveth this testimony of the Protestant Church wherof him-self was a member . The Apocriphal books of the new Testament are the Epistle to the Hebrews , the Epistle of Iams , the second and third of Iohn , the second of Peter , the Epistle of Iude , and the Apocalyps . And all the Authors heer mentioned give the like testimony in behalf of their Protestant Churches , wherfor we can not but admire Doctor Cossins confidence in affirming a matter so notoriously contradicted ; and much more the carelesness of them who ground their faith and Canon of Scripture vpon it s not being ever questioned . See Cozins in the 17 ▪ chap. per to● . [a] Salvus Conductus datus Protestantibus sess . 13. & 14. Concil . Trident. Vt Protestantes , de iis rebus quae in ipsa Synodo tractari debent , omni libertate conferre , proponere , & tractare &c. ac articulos quot illis videbitur , tam scripto quam verbo afferre , proponere , & cum Patribus , &c. conferre , & absque ullis convitiis , & concontumeliis disputare , nec non quando illis placuerit , recedere possint . Placuit praeterea Sanctae Synodo vt si pro majori libertate , ac securitate eorum , certos tam pro commissis , quam pro committendis per eos delictis , Iudices eis de putari cupiant , illos sibi benevolos nominent , etiamsi delicta ipsa quantumcunque enormia ac hoeresim sapientia fuerint . New definitions are not new articles of faith See this largly proued in 3. part of this Treatise . pag. 101. & seq . (a) S. Hierom . in lib. de 〈◊〉 illustr . extremo , & in Praefat librorum quos latin●s ●ecit . (b) Hierom. epist. 89. ad Aug. quaest 11. inter ep . August . S. Hierom. in his Preface before the new Testament dedicated to Pope Damasus , Novum opus &c. [c] Luther being admonished of his corruption , would not correct his error , but saith tom . 5. Germ. fol. 141. & 144. sic volo , sic jubeo , sit pro ratione voluntas &c. Lutherus ita vult . And concludeth , Therfore the word alone ought to continue in my New Testament , although all Papists run mad , yet they shal not take it from thence . It grieves me that I did not add those two other words , Omnibus , & omnium . The Church of England in Edward 6. time , Translated some times This signifieth my Body ; other times , this is my Body , other times , neither is nor signifieth , but insteed therof a blanck as not yet resolved vpon which was true . See Knot in his Protestancy condemned , Edit . 1654. pag. 87. Bible 1562 Bible 1562. Cor. 7. v. 1. Bible 1577. & 1579. Chemnit . in examin . part 2. fol. 74. Saravia in defens . tra . diversis mini . ●r . gradibus pag 3. Jewel in his defence of the Apology 157. pa. 35. Tertullian in lib de praescr . Qui estis vos . vnde & quādo venistis ? vbi tam diu latuistis S. Hilarius l. 6 de Trinit . ante med . Tarde mihi hos piissimos doct●res aetas nunc ●ujus ●●culi protulit &c. S. Hierom in epist ad Pama●● & ●ce an 〈◊〉 p●st quadring 〈◊〉 ( now 1600 ) annos docere nos 〈◊〉 qu●d an●●a neseivimus ? Vsque in hāc diem sine isra doctrina mundus christianus fuit Luther in ●p . ad Irgentineneses au● 1525. Christiana nola● primo vulga tun . audemu . gloriari . [a] Georgius Milius in August . Confes. explic . art . 7. de ecclesia pag. 137. [b] Dr. Feeld in his Treatise of the Church lib. 3 cap. 46 Mr. Abr ▪ Hartwell in his report of the Kingdom of Congo , printed 1597. in his epistle to the reader . Symon Lythus in respons altera ad alteram Gretseri Apol . pag. 331 Danaeus contra Belarmin pag. 781. (c) The title of Zwingitu , his writing is Pietate & Prudentia in signi Helveti orum Reipublicae , Hulde ricus Zwinglius aliique Evangelicae doctrinae Ministri gratia & pacem a Deo &c. ton : 1. fol. 110 See all these words and much more related by him-self 1. sq ad fol. 123. [d] Zwingl . tom . 3 in lib. de subid . Ecclesiae fo . 249 The Reformers of the English Church . Jn Queen Elizabeth . See the nullity of the English Church and Clergy . See this in the new Edition of the Common prayr book , rit●s &c. of the Church of England . [a] In psal . 30. con . 2. [b] Esay 2.2 . [c] Esay 60.16 . [d] Esay 60.9 . [e] Esay 60.10.11 . & Psalm . 102.15.22 . & Esay 62.2 . [f] Esay 60.6 . [g] Esay 49.23 . And see the marginal notes of the English Bible of 1576. in Esay 49.23 . [h] Psalm . 2.8 . [i] The English Bible 1576. in the marginal notes , saith : The meaning is , that Kings shall be converted to the Ghospel , and bestow their power and authority for preservation of the Church . Luther tom . 4. Wittemb . in Esay 6. folio 234. Kings shall obey and believe the Ghospel , &c. The Church is in perpetual vse of converting others to the faith , &c. For this is signified by her gates being continually open . [k] Whitaker in his answer to Mr. William Reynolds in the Preface , pag. 37. [l] Centur. 4. col . 292. & 293. vnder the titles de justificatione & bonis operibus , where they conclude saying : J am cogitet pius Lector quam procul haec aetas in hoc Articulo de Apostolorum doctrin● desciverit . (m) Centur. 4. col . 254. Ad hoc Presbyter●m aliquem deputarunt , ad quem qui deliquerunt accedentes , quae gessissent confiterentu● , &c. Ea lege confitentes absolvebat , vt a seipsis poenas commissorum exigerent . (n) Centur. 4. col . 255. & col . 256.257 . are recited and rejected the particula● sayings , of Bazil , Ambrose , Prudentius , Ephrem , Athanasius . (o) Centur. 4. col 304. Where are recited and rejected the sayings of Lactantius and S. Ierom. (p) See confessed testimonies for Transsubstantiation alleadged by the Centurists . cent . 4. col . 29● & col . 985. And cent . 5● col . 517. They say Chrysostom seemeth so confirm Transsubstantiation . And cent . 4. c. 10. col . 985. that Eusebius and Emissenus did speake vnprofitably of Transsubstantiation . (q) Chemnitius in his examin part . 2. pag. 29. alledged the severall sayings of S. Austin , S. Ambrose , and S. Gregory Nazianzen affirming the ado●●tion of the Sacrament . And Orat. 11. de Gorgonia sorore , telleth how his deceased sister prostrated her self before the Alter , and calling vpon him who is worship'd on it . ( ● miracle ) saith he , the departed presently received health . And the Centurists cent . 4. col . 430. do reprove some prayers of S. Ambrose , saying Continent adorationem panis in Sacramento . (r) Centur. 3. col . 83. they reprove S. Cyprian , saying , Sacerdotem vice Christi fungi , & Deo Patri Sacrificium offerre . They also say that the writings of S. Ireneus and Ignatius the Apostles scholler , are here in , incommodious and dangerous . And Sebastia . Francus , in his Epist. de abrogandis Statutis omnibus Ecclesiast . affirmeth that presently after the Apostles time the supper of our Lord was turned into a Sacrifice . (s) Centur . 4. col . 456. & 457. & 482. & 1446. Centur. 4. col . 602. & 1250. & 457. And S. Ierom contra Vigilantium , cap. 3. affirmeth the estimation of Reliques to be in his time the received doctrin non vnius vrbis sed totius orbis . (v) Hemnitius examin part . 4. pag. 10 Suscipiebant etiam Peregri●● Nationes ad loca vbi Reliquias Miraculis celebres & claras audiebant . (x) Centur. 4. col . 409. (z) Mr. Fulk against Heskins , Sanders , &c. pag 657. affirmeth that by report of Paulinus , the Cross was by the Bishop of Hierusalem brought forth at Easter ( yearly ) to be worshiped of the people . See Evagrius hist. lib. 4. cap. 25. also Danaeus in respons . ad Belarmini controvers . pag. 1415. affirmeth that Cyril and sundry other Fathers were plainly superstitious , and blinded with inchantment of the Crosses adoration . (1) See Mr. Covels answer to Burges pag. 130 & 136. (2) Cent. 4. col . 616. It is alledged out of the Councel of Neocesa●ea , can . 1. Presbyter si vxorem duxerit , ab ordine suo , illum deponi debere . & col . 486. col . 303. col . 704. & 1293. (3) Centur. 5. col . 1274. they charge Gelasius who lived an . 480. saying : Romanam Ecclesiam jure Divino contendit ( Gelasius ) esse omnium primam in epist. ad Brut. &c. cap. 11. And Gelasius in decretis cum . 70. Episcopis initis saith : Romana Ecclesia ●alli● S●●odicis constitut . caeteris Ecclesiis praelata est , sed Evangelica voce Domini , Primatum obtinuit ; Tu ●s Petrus inqui●●s , & super hanc Petram , &c. (y) Centur. 4. col . 1329. Et Osiander in epitom . cent 4. pag. 454. And Zozimen hist. lib. 6. c. 27. post med . reported of S. Paul the Monk. In dies singulos trecentas Orationes Deo , velut tributum quoddam reddidit , ac ne per inprudentiam in numero erraret , trecentis lapillis in sinum conjectis , ad singulas preces , singulos inde ejecit lapillos : consumptis igitur lapillis , constabat sibi Orationes lapillis numero pares abs se expletas esse . And see other like examples of saying prayers by accompt , or numbring of them , in Palladius his historia Lausiaca , cap. 24. & cap. 25. [4] Beza cit . apud Sa●●i●●am in defen Tract . de div●●sis gradib●● Ministrorum &c. pag. 309. [5] Tertull. lib. de praescr . c. 42. Luther in Comment●r . ad . cap. 2. ad Galat. Where it is taught , Faith in Christ doth in deed justify , but it 's necessary with all to keep God's Commandments , because it is writen , Jf thou wilt enter into life , keep the Commandments , there Christ is denyed , and saith is abolished , because that which is proper to God alone , is attributed to the Commandments of God , or to the law . When any one proposeth Moyses with his Commandments to thee , and would oblige thee to keep them , then thy ; with thy Moyses to the Jews . J will have nothing to do with Moyses nor his law , for he is an enemy to Christ. Luther in Collo . mens . Germ. fol. 152. & 153. Si scortus es , si scortator , si Adulter , vel alioquin peccator , crede , & in via salutis ambulas . Cum in peccatum demersus es ad summum vsque , si credis , in m●dia beatidudine versaris . This doctrin of the Antinomian Lutherans togeather with their rejecting the ten Commandments as impertinent to Christians , is censured by the Man●feldian Ministers , Confess . Mansfeld . fol. 39. & 90. And yet the principle from whence all necessarily follows is maintained . Mr. Willet in his Synopsis Papismi pag. 564. saith , The law remaineth still impossible to be kept by us , through the weackness of our flesh , neither doth God give us ability to keep it , but Christ hath fulfilled it for us . [a] Luther in his Sermons translated into English an . 1578. pag. 147. & 176. [b] Acts and Mon. " pag. 1338. [c] Mr. Wotten in his answer to the " Popish articles pag. 92. & pag. 41. [d] Mr. Fulk against the Remish Testament in Epi. Ioan. Sec. 5. & fol. 447. Dr. Whitaker de Eccles. pag , 301 We say that if a man have an act of faith , sins do not hurt him , this truly Luther affirmeth , this we all say . [e] Acts and Mon. pag. 1335. Sinit quisquis vere credit Deum pro se operari , & disponere sibi vitam aeternam ipse plane ad eam rem nihil operis seu laboris sibi sumens . Hofmannus de paenitentia edit . 1540. l. 2. fol. 113. Whitaker contra Campian . rat . 8. pag. 151. Christus conditionem nobis aliam multo faciliorem proponit , Crede & salvus eris . [f] Dr. Fulk in the Tower disputation against Campian , the second days conference 1. 6. [g] Whitaker against Campian " rat . 8. pag. 143. fides aut perpetua est aut nulla est . The Protestant doctrin of justifying faith most dāgerous and damnable My Lord Chancellor in his speech to the Parliament at Oxford . Luther in postilla super Evang . Dom. 1. Advemus . Dominica 26 post Trinit . [a] Osiander in epitom . Centur. 16. part 2. pag. 647 saith of David George , vtebatur enim publico vir Dei ministerio Basiliensi , egentibus elëemosy nam subministrebat , aegrotos consolabatur &c. [b] Historia Georgij Davidis published by the Divines of Basil and printed of Antwerp . 1568 si Christi & Apostolorum doctrina vera & perfecta fuisset &c. [c] Osiander in epitom . Centur. 16. pag. 818. Schlusselb . in Theol. Calvin l. 1. art . 2. fol. 9. [d] Idem Schlussenburg cit . fol. 9. where he brings many other examples of Protestants to the same purpose , as also Osiander centur . 16. pag. 207.208.209 . Concerning that known Text , I and my Father are unum , one thing , Ioan. 10.30 . Calvin avoydeth it ( as the Arians did ) saying . Abusi sunt hoc loco veteres vt probarent Christum esse Patri homousion . Neque enim Christus de activitate substantiae disputat , sed de consensu &c. Calvin . in Ioan. 10. Calvin in admonit . ad Polonos explant . in Tract . Theol. pag. 794. Sententia Christi , Pater major me est , restricta fuit ad humanam ejus naturam ; ego vero non dubito ad totum complexum extendere . Stancarus contra Minist . Geneuenses Tigurinos fol. 94. & 95. & 118. & 123. affirmeth that the Reformed Churches professing the faith of Geneva and Tigure , be Arian , and saith . Conclusum est ô Calvine , doctrinam tuam de Filio Dei esse plane Arianam , a qua , resilias quam primum te oro atque obsecro . [a] The word Trinity is but a humā inventiō and soundeth couldly Luther in Postil majore Basileae apud Hernagium in enar - Evangel . Dom. Trinit . Calvin . ep . 2. ad Polonos in tract . Theolog . & pag. 796 saith , Precatio vulgo trita est , sancta Trinitas vnus Deus miserere nostri , mihi non placet , ac omnino barbariem sapit . (b) Luther in lib. contr● Jacobū Latomum 〈◊〉 . 2. W●tte●b . latine edito anno . 1551. The later editions are altered and corrupted herin , as in many other things . Osiander in Epitom . cent . 16. pag. 169 Symbolum Athanasiivocant doctrinā & fidem Satanasii ; vanissime insuper jactitant Lutherum vix tectum Babilonicae turris detex isse , se vero ex imis fundamentis eam ex scindere . [a] Whitaker contra rat . Camp. pag. 78. And in his answer to Mr. William Reynolds cap. 6. pag. 135. art . 136. saith : The Fathers thought by their external disciplin of life to pay the paines due for sin , wherin they derogated not a little from Christ's death &c. Which though it be an errour , yet were they notwithstanding good men and holy Fathers . From whence followeth that Indulgences , Purgatory , Satisfaction , Prayer for the dead , Merit , &c. may be held by learned and holy men . Mr. Bunny in his treatise tending to pacification , sect . 17. pag. 104. excusing some points of popery , and amongst others the worshiping of images , saith , in these therfore or such like , whosoever will condemn all those to be none of the Church , that are not fully persuaded therin as we are , &c. committed an vncharitable part towards his Brethren . See Doctor Some against Mr. Penry pag. 176. Tindall act . Mon. pag. 1338. I doubt not but S , Bernard , Francis and many other holy men erred as concerning Mass. Mr. Francis Iohnson in Mr. Iacob's defence of the Churches and Ministery of England , &c. pag. 13. Did not Iohn Hus that worthy Champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs of fore times , say and heare Mass , even to their dying day ? &c. Did not divers of them acknowledg , some the Pop's calling and supremacy , some the 7. Sacraments , some auricular confession ? &c. Morgenstein in tract . de Ecclesia , &c. pag. 41. These things were pardonable in the Godly , who held the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church , the Papacy for the Church , Saints for mediators , and the Mass for the supper of the Lord. Luther de vtraque specie , saith : If thou coms't to a place were the Communion is ministred vnder one only kind , take it with others . The like indifferency is affirmed by Melancthon in centur . epist. Theolog. pag. 252. and not denyed by Bishop Iewell in his reply pag. 110. & 106. The Roman Catholick Church is a competent and vnpartial Judg of Controversies of Religion . Quid praedi●averin● Apostoli , quid illis Christus revelaverit &c. non aliter probari debere , nisi per easdem Ecclesias quas ipsi condiderunt . Tertul. l. 1. d● praescri . c. 6. All Christians were n●ver Iudges of Religion , one part always submitted to the judgment of the other that was in obedience to , and in communion with saint Peter's Successor the Bishop of Rome . See Bishop Morton cit . and Bishop Taylor in his Dissuasive pag. 8. edit . Dubl . Protestancy is Heresy . Protestancy contradicts God's veracity . The infallibility of the Roman Catholick Church in matters of faith , proved against Protestants . The Protestant doctrin of fundamentalls confuted See Ariagae ▪ disp . 4. de fide sec. 4. per totum ▪ The infallibility of the Church proved by God's veracity . Heresy explained by Rebellion . The vnreasonableness of them who pretend a privat spirit , ād refuse to submit to the authority of the Church , for want of cleerer evidence then the Roman Catholick hath of God's authority . Esay . 49.28 . Suinglius lib. 4. Epist. Brentius in Confes. Wittemb . cap. de Sacra Script . & in Prologo . contra Petrū a S●to . l. 2. sect . 6. pag. 112. See heretofore ● . part . sec. 1. how the centurists and other learned Protestants confess the Councells , and Fathers , defended worship of Imamages , Transubstantiatiō Purgatory , Indulgences , and all other points of Popery . Bale in his Act. Rom. Pontif. printed at Basil 1558. page 44 45.46 . confesseth besides , that St. Gregory held the Sacrifice of the Mass , the doctrin of Purgatory , &c. See Bale in his Pagea of Popes pag. 27. of S. Leo Doct. Humfrey Iesuitissimi pag. 1. rat 5. pag. 626. How particularly the Protestant Clergy ●s charged with frauds , and falsifications in maintaining their Religion . After Doctor Taylors death his freinds have published a second part of his Dissuasive , which is so weack a vindication of the first , that it needs not that Reply which is now in hand by E. W. his Adversary . Fox . pag. 200. vol. 1. num . 2. See hereafter some of his falsifications in particular objected to him by the Catholik Bishops and Doctors at his triall . Dr. Heylin ed. 6. pag 89 Three Convers . of England Part. 2 pag. 593. See the stat . an . 28. Henr. cap. 7. 1536 Mathews his Bible , and the Bible of the large volume was the worck of Tyndal , and Coverdale , and Rogers , well lickt of Cranmer . Stat. anno Dom. 1547· Ed. 6. an . 1. Fox pag. 1942. Fox in a marginal not vpon this last part , saith Bishop Ridleyes profecy vpon the Episcopal see op London . Rogers . Of Bishop Poynet . Schism Angl. pag. 216. Schism Angl. Ed 6. pag. 194. & 19● . John Bale writes thus of him self Cent. 5. fol. 245. when I was a boy of twelue year● old at Norwich , I was thrust into the He●● of the white Monks , ● Carmelites The word the lord a●●pearing I saw mine own deformity ( to wit of being a Priest and a friar ) I did presently thē scrape out the cursed caracter of the horrible beast , for that I took vnto me a most faithful wife Dorothy , and this not from any man , nor by any man's helpe , but by the special guift and Word of Christ. This friar makes Chirst it 〈◊〉 woer for him to marry a Nun ; and yet he calls our S. Austin and his chast Monks , togeather vvi●h the vvhole primitive Church of England , a Carnal Synagogue . Osiander in Epitom . cent . 9 10. ●1 . pag 454. act . 15. Melan●●●on in disput . de cura Magistrat . &c. Stows Annals pa. 550. Schism An. pag. 17.217 Of Coverdale and his Bible . See Fox pag. 1362. & 1363. pag. 1362. Schism . pag. 217. Fox pag. 136● first edit , See Dr. Heylins Ecclesia resta 〈◊〉 Queen Mary pag. 80. Melancton in epitom 8. vbi vociferantur quidam , Martyres Anglicos , esse Martyres diaboli . Jbid. pa. 80 Jbidem Heylin . Ecclesia restaurata in Queen Mary pa 39 & seqq . Heylin cit . pag. 61. Pag. 60. Queen Mary . Heylin cit . pag. 63. Schism Angl. pag. 107. Dr Heylin 1. Eliz. pag. 107. D. r Heylin Eccl : restaur . Q. Elizabeth pag. 103. part . 3. Sect. 1. Harding in his rejoind erto Mr. Iewel 's reply 1556. in his epistle to the Reader . Dr. Heylin in his Eccles. restaurata hist. Q Eliz. p. 130. & 131 Euseb. in Hist. Eccles. lib 6. c. 36. Iewel reply pag. 134. Iewel pag. 132. Luc. 24. Chrysost. ho. 17. in Math. Aug. de consensu Evang. l. 3.6.25 . de serm . 140. Theophil . alii Jewel def . of the Apology fol. 222. 1. Tim. 4. ● & 3. Apol. defenc ▪ pag. 176. Jewel Apol cap. 19 divis . l. & in defen . fol. 517. Reply pag. 239. Bede lib. 1. cap. 27. Scripture corrupted . Math. 13 . 37· Staplet . return fol. 32 & 33. Jn vita St. Andreae pet Presbiter●● Achaiae . See heretofore part . 1. See the defence pag. 132. S. Cyprian lib. 1. ep . 6. ad magn , Novatian is not in the Church , nor can he be computed a Bishop , who succeeding to none and contemning the Evangelical and Apostolical Tradition , is ordained by him-self . And a litle after , He who succeeds no body , and begins from him-self is a stranger , and profane . Optatus lib. 2. cont . Parmen ; There 〈…〉 of their own heads without Divin● disposition 〈◊〉 them-selves over rash people assembled togeather , who make them-selves Prelats , without 〈◊〉 of ordination , and take vpon them the name of Bishops , and Bishopricks without having received them from any . S. Austin ex quaest . in nov . & 〈◊〉 ▪ Tostam . 100. saith of Hereticks , They pertur●e the order begun from the Apostle Peter , and observed vntill this time by a continuation of succeeding Bishops ; they set vp an Order for them-selves without a beginning . And tom . 7. contra epist. Manich. cap. 4. Tenet a● ipsa Petri Sede &c. vsque ad pr●sentem Episcopatum successio Sacerdotum . See Jren. l. 3. adversus haeres . c. 3. Defence Apolog . pag. 6●7 . In appendic● Conc. Consta. § in primis . pag. 29.2 . Iustinian . l. 4. Histor. Venet . Bemb . Hist. Venet. Sabel . Decad 2. l 1. ●20 . & Ennead . 9. lib. 8.260 . Gregory l. 7. epist 30. Indict . ll . Bede l 2. c. 3. Hist. 1. Cor. 16. Apol. of the Church of England part . 4. Iewell defence of the Apology pag. 130. Stapleton Counterblast fol. 30● . 30● . An. 1. Eliz. c. 1. Acts and Mon. pag. 2016. Eccles. Polity l. 2. sec. 6. pag. 112. Whitaker in respons . ad rat . Campt . rat . 5. pag. 50. Dr. Heylin Eccl. restaur . q. Eliz. pag. 130. Three Convers : in the relation of the tryall made before the French King. 1600. pag. 55. Jewell's answer to excuse his wilfull falsifications . The Magdeburgian writers Centur. 2. & 3. cap. 4. condemn . the Fathers for asserting the Sacrifice of the Mass &c. Centur. 2. c. 4. Centur. 3. c. 4. p. 77. Centur. 4. Valentia his comparison of Protestant writers , and the Magdeburgians . Cent. 3. c. 4. Magdeburg . in praef Ep. dedic . ad Eliz. Angl. Reg. in Cent. 4. Cent. 2. c. 4. pag. 55. Fox in his protestation to the Church of England , pag. 2. & 3. Fox in Protest . ad Eccl ▪ Angl. Tretemius in verbo Bertramus , : Sand de visibili Monarchia haeres . 133. Gerson lib. contra Romant . Extravagāt de Trin : Guido Carmel . Caesarius Gadnin . lib. 6. hist. Franc. Naucler . in hist. Tritem . in Chron. Monast . Hirsang : Genebr . in Chron. an . 1215. Sylvius lib. 4. de Orig. Bohem . cap ▪ ●5 . Vsparg . in Chron. an . 1212. Guid. Carm. in haeres . Waldens . Antonin p. 3. sum . tit . 11. c. 7. Caesar. 5. dist . dialog . hixemb . haeres . Albi Prascol & Sander ibidē . Tritem in Chron. an . Dom. 1315. Fox pag. ●93 ▪ Acts. and mon. pag. 9● . Pag. 1395. & 1555. Fox pag. 1414. Fox pag. 1558. Difference between the persecution of Catholiks and Protestants . Bede 〈◊〉 4 ▪ cap. 5. Bede lib. 4. hist. cap. 5. Fox 112. Bede lib 4. hist. cap. 5. Fox pag 164 Anton. part . 2. tit . 16. c. 1. §. 21. Naucler . generat . 37. Distinct. 23. c praeter §. verum apud Anton tit . 16. Tritem . in Chron. an . 1075. Origen . hom . 23. in lib. nu . Euseb. lib. 1. demonstrat Evang. c 9. Marianus Scotus in Chron. an . 1096. & 1. ● . 4. concil . pag. 79. Distinct. 32. vt supra &c. nullus . Iohn Fox in his Acts and monuments is endless in lyes . In setting down the differēces in doctrin betweē his and the Roman Catholick Church , he is convinced to have made above 120. lyes , in 〈◊〉 leaves : to wit , from the 12. to the 14. see Persons in his relation of a tryall held in France about religion pag. 60. which he offers to prove one by one , If any of Iohn Fox's friends will ioyn issue with him , vpon that point he is of opinion that the lyes of the Acts and Monuments will surpass those of Iohn Sleydan's History , and of which eleaven thousand were gathered by German writers Fox in his protest . pag. 10. Fox pag. 314. of the old edition . In that of 1632. It is pag. 728. lib. 1. de nupt . & conc . c. 23. & 25. Fox pag. 1617. Fox pag. 1605. Fox pag. 1602. Doctor Fulk against Doct. Bristows motives pag. 54. Fulk against Bristow's motives pag. 35. Fulk against Allen pag. 303. Persons in his quest . and sober Rock . p. ●96 . against ● p Morton ▪ Willet pag. 263. Willet in his Tetracty●●ns defence . See Walsingham's search falsities objected to Willet· See heretofore part . 1. & 2. Willet Synopsis pag. 219. and in his defence pag. ● 142. Bern. ep . 126 St. Bern. 66 ▪ in Cantis . Willet in his Synopsis pag. 297. Aug ●p . 106 & lib. 5. contra Haustum . Catholicks do not take away the second Commandement . Se the Remish Test. anot . vpon 20. Exod. 4. Calvin's Instit . lib. 2. c ▪ 16. ser. 10. & in Catechism . That Christ despaired see Calvin in Math. c. ●7 . ● . 46. & 47. 〈…〉 . Calvin's words are , sed ab●●●dum videtur , Christo elap●●m desperotionis vocem ? Responde● hanc desporationem 〈◊〉 sensu carnis profecta●● And again : sed videmus omni ex parte fuisse v●xatum , vt desperation● obrutus ab invocando Deo absisteret , quod era● saluti renunciare . Knot in his protestancy condemned pag. 89. S. Chrysostom vpon that place of Esay , I will break the brazen gates and br●ise the Iron barrs in peeces , and will open the treasures darkned &c. so he calleth Hell , saith he ( Ho●● . Christus si● Deus 1.5 . ) for although is vnto hell , 〈◊〉 is held the holy soules and pretious vessels , Abraham , Isaac , and Iacob St. Hierom. in c. 13. esau saith , hell is a place wher●● soules are included either in rest , or in paines , according to the quality of their deserts . Se● St. Austin in psal . 85. v. 13. Hebrew 9. v. 8. heb . 10.20 . Doctor Gregory Martyn in his discover● pag. 10. The Saints in heaven do heare our prayers . Hieron . ibid. Reynolds 〈◊〉 . de Ido . Rom. Eccl. c. 3. Ambr. l de viduis . Hierom . l. contra vigilan . August . l. de cura pro mortuis ▪ Naz. orat . fun . sor . Gorg. Aug. l. de cura pro mortuis . St. Gregory lib. 5. c. 30. ex●poundeth this of Job . 5.1 . that Saints were to be invocated in a Good cause . And it is cleere by the 72. Interpreters , saying , Jnvocate if any will answer thee , or if thou canst behold any of the holy Angells . Theodoret. q. 67. in exod . N●zia . orat . 〈◊〉 Basil. Hierom. in Epitaph . Paul● . Nyssen . Orat. in Theodor. Aug. de Bap. l. 7. c. 1. Athan. Serm. de Deipara . Aug. Serm. 18 de Sanctis Ephrem orat in ●●ud B. Virginis . Concil . Calcedonense . act . 11. Fl●viāus post mortem vivit , Martyr pro nobis Oret . See the defence pag. 28. Defence of of the Censure fol. 81.82 . &c. Defence of the Censure fol. 86.87 . &c. Defence pag. 73. Luther epi●t . Harnagi●in . tom . 7. Witt. fol. 380. Answer to M. r Charks preface p. 25. How loath the Protestant Clergy is that the King or 〈◊〉 persons should examin their doctrin or way of defending it . What cheating and vnconscionable ways were taken to fright Dean Walsingham from examining of the truth . Search into Religion pag. 53. Pag. 65. of Walsingham's search . Search Wals ▪ p. 71. Antonin . 3. part . act . 1. c. 11. Search pag. 77. Mr. Walsingham found no satisfaction in the answer of the defence of the Censure . Search . pag. 78. How the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and his Assembly of Divines would not conferr Dean Walsingham's notes of Bell's corruptions with the Fathers quoted , notwithstanding the books were in their presence , or on the next roome . Perkins . Subsect . 2. num . 19. Subsect . 2. nu . 40. See in the epistle dedicatory to the King edit . Angl. P. Fronto Duceus Burdeg . Apply this to Bp. Taylors Dissuasive , wherof himselfe sayes in his preface he was but the Amanuensis , all the Protestant Church of Ireland in a solemn convocation having layd their heads together for composing so substantial and convincing a peece . Persons sober reck . pag. 318. Reynold . de justa Reip. auctoritate c. l. Pag. 100. An imposture continued against the Catholick doctrin by the national Synod of the Church of England . see inf . See constitutions Ecclesiast . printed at London by Barker an . 1604. Can. 30. The whole Convocation of the Protestant Clergy convicted of fals dealing against Catholicks . See the summe of the Cōference pag. 37. Thirdly printed an . 1604. Extravag . communium de Major . & obedientiat . vnam sanctam . Preamb. p. 11. Preamb. pag. 104. See heretofore . Full satisfa . pag. 38. Bellarm. l. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 2. Carer . l. 1. c. 24. Azor. l. 5. ● . 14. Gratiā Can. si Papa dist . 40. Bellarm. l. 2. de Pontif. ● . 30. Bouchet in Sum. Beneficial . tit . puissance & edit . Paris . 1628. a pag. 812. vsque ad 853 & pag. 844. vsque ad 847. Of the index expurgatorius . Bellarm. l. 2. de verbo Dei cap. 12.13.14 . Hardings detection l. 4. fol. 249. Aug. l. 2. de gratia Christi c. 2 & 6. & contra Dic. Epist. Pelagij c 4. Concil . Afric . ep . ad Bonifacium . See Baronius tom . 5. Stapletons return of vntruthes art . 4. p. 29. Sanders de visib . Monarch . l. 7. p. 356. Bellarm. l. 2. de Rom. Pontif . c. 24. & 25. Aug. ep . 261. Walsingham's search pag. ●07 . Bellarm. l , 2. de Rom. Pontif . cap. 13. §. 7. Tom. 2. Concil . ed. venet . pag. 342. extat . Epistola concilij ad Beatum Papā Leonem de omnibus gestis &c. Sutcliff challenge 2. part . 2. fol. 159. Niceph. lib. 17. c. 27. Aug. l. 6. contra Julian . c. 2. & 3. & 4. ad Bonifac. c. 2. & 4. Hierom. l. 2. contra Pelagian . Preamb. pag. 63. Preamb. pag. 63 See Parsons sober Reckoning with Morton a pag. 159. vsque 166. Belarm . lib. 4. de notis Ecclesiae cap. 9. §. Novatianorum . Hierom in . praefat . Dialogorum contra Pelagianos . Aug. de haeres . c. 46. Belarm cit . Preamb. pag. 64. Belar cit . § Ariani . Preamb. pag. 64. Belarm l. 1. de Eccles. c. 1. Valentia tom 4. disp . 6. q. 3. p. 1. §. Item . Belarm . de Euch l. 1. cap. 1. Belarm cit . cap. 1. Calvins contradictions and non sense in the mystery of the Eucharist . Calvin in fine consens . cum Pastor . Figurinis . Calvin in 26 Math. & lib. 4. Instit. c. 17.5 . Lib. Instit. cap. 17. §. 5.10 . & 32. Lib. 4. Instit. c. 17. §. 5.31 . Ibid. § 33.34 Ibid. §. 2.5 lib. de Caena cap. 3. See Belarm . lib. 1. de Euch. cap. 1. per tot . & in fin . Zozomenus lib. 7. hist. cap. 12. Belarm . lib 4. de no●is Ecclesiae cap 9 Apparatus ad Tom. 1. pag. 49. Sutcliff pag. 199. Sutcliff pag. 279. Instit. lib. 2. cap. 20. Luther de Captiuit . Babylon & in cap. 15 ▪ Ioan. & in 6. art . against the execrable Bull &c. Melancton disp . de paenitentia . prop. 7. Concil . Trid. Sess. 6. c. 8. Catech. ad Paroch . de paen . Sacram pag. 290. Luther lib. 1. de natura hominis art . 4. Luther . lib. contra Ambr. Cathar . Luther . in Concil . Germ. cap. de Anti-Christo . Calvin lib. 3. Instit. c. 20. ● . 21. Calvin Instit. lib. 3. c ▪ 4. §. 1. See part . 2. 3. Cor. 7. Cyprian ser. de caena Domini . See St. Cyril of Hierusalem Cateches . Missagog 4. S. Ambros . lib. 4. de Sacram. c. 4. & de ijs qui Mysterijs initiantur c. 6. St. August . vide Canonean do consec , dist . 2. Answer 85. St. Basil. in Regulis brevioribus . Interrogatione 288. St. Ambrose l. de paenit . cap. 6. St. Austin hom . 49. c. 3. Aug. lib. de vera & falsa paenitentia cap. 10. & cap. 14. St. Gregory Nyssen orat . in eos qui durius alios judicant , Petro Francisco Zeno. Interpret . Pag. 128. St. Ambrose l. 1. de paenit . cap. 2. & ser. 10. in psal . 128. St. Hierom. in proverb . cap. 11. saith , it is to be observed that although there be no hope of pardon after death , yet be there so●e who may be absolved after death from such light sins as they carried with them out of this life . They may be absolved I say , either by suffering punishment , or els by the prayer , almes , and masses of their living friends . But to whom soever these things are don , thy are don to them before the last Judgment , and for lighter faults . De hac quaestione nihil Ecclesia definiuit , sunt autem multae opiniones . Belarm . lib. 12. de purgat . cap. 6. initio . pag. 178. & passim . St. Bernard ser. 66. in Cant. St. Gregory Nyssen . orat . de mortuis . Purge me o Lord in ths life &c. that I may not stand in need of that amēding fire which is for those who shall be saued , but so as by fire . Aug. in psal . 37. It is manifest that they ( aged persons dying in smaller sins ) being purged , before the day of Judgment , by temporary pains which their souls do suffer ; they shall not be deliuered to the punishment of eternal fire . Aug. l. 20. de Ciuit . cap. 13. Vsher's Answer pag. 179. Answer pag. 182. See Sir Edward Sands in his relations cap. 53.54 . Hieremias Constantinopol . Resp. 1. c. 12. & 13. Gabriel Alexand . ep . ad Clem. 8 Hypathius Ruthenorum legatus in professione fidei . Graeci Venetiad Card. Guisianum . q 10 Zaga Zab● Ethiop . in Confessione fidei Aethiop . Gennadius Scholarius &c. Purgatorio sec. 1. & 5. Answer pag. 420 Reply against Harding p. 379. St. Austin contra Faust. Manichaeum lib. 20. c. 21. Answer pag. 377. Mathew 4. v. 10 , St. Epiphan . Haeres . 79. parag 6. & 7 ▪ Ibid parag . 2. Vsher translates But thou o Lord , and adds interrogations to help his fraud . Adjuvent nos eorum merita quos propria impediunt scelera ; excuset intercessio , accusat quos actio : & qui eis tribuisti caelestis palmam triumphi , nobis veniam non deneges peccati . Pag. 24. against Fisher . Aug. serm . 14 de verb● Apostoli . in fine . Laud pag. 33 Ibid. Pag. 34. B. Laud. E. Quae quidê si tam manifesta mon●ratur vt in dubium venire non possit , praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus , quibus in Catholicateneor . Ita si aliquid apertissimū in Evangelis . St. Aug. contra Fund . c. 4. Pag. 38. Vincent . Lirin . cap. 23.24 . he sayes the Pelagians erred in Dogmate fidei , and yet they erred not in a prime maxime , but in a superstructure . Vin. Lirin . cont . haer . c. 31. Impiorum & turpiumerrorum lupanar : vbi erat ante castae & incorruptae Sacrarium veritatis . Bp. Laud pag. 38. Pag. 39. Christi vero Ecclesia sedula & cauta depositorum Custos , nihil in ijs vnquā permutat , nihil minuit , nihil addit : non amputat necessaria , non apponit superflua , non amittit sua , non vsurpat allena . Vincent . Lirin . cap. 22. Se hertofore part . 2. Ego vero Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae commoveret authoritas . Aug. lib. 1. contra Epist. Fund . c. 5. Bishop Laud pag. 81. edit . 1639. Vbi Ecclesia Catholica Episcopos & populos à tempore Apostolorum vsque in hodi●rnum diem sibimet succedentium importat , & sic accipit nomē Ecclesiae Augustinus cum asserit , quod non crederet Evangelio , ni●● eum authoritas Ecclesiae &c. Ocham Dial. part . 1. lib. 1. cap. 4. Hos. 4.15 . A.C. pag. 58. Guilielm . Malmesbur . in prolog . lib. 1. de g●st●s Pontif. Angl. p. 195. St Bed. lib. 5. Eccl. Hist. cap. 20. Bede lib. 1. Eccl. Histor. cap. 29. See this Treatise par . 1. sec· 1. Concil . Afrik . Can. 101. Ut Romam liceat Episcopis provocare ; & ut Clericorum causae apud suarum provinciarum Episcopos finiantur , etiam litteris nostris ad eundem venerabilis memoriae Zozimum Episcopum datis , insinuari cur● ▪ vimus &c. Concil . African . ep . ad Bonifac pap . to which St. Austin subscribed . St. Irenaeus l. 3. cap. 3. Gregor . Nazian . in Car ▪ de vita sua . See D Lauds labyrinth . p. 135. & 136 Hierom. ep . ad Evagrium . Auferibilis non est usque ad consummationē saeculi Vicarius sponsus Ecclesiae ● quin aliquis certus ei praeficiatur &c. Gerson Consid . 20. A faire offer to Protestants See the petition and instrument of the Catholick Clergyes resignation in Doctor Heylins Ecclesia restaurata pag. 43. and the Stat. 1. Mar. and in this Treatise part . 1. No sacrilege to apply the Church revenues to the Crown in some cases . See the Sentence of Pope Julius 3. sent to Queen Mary an . 1554. And the reasons therof set down by Dr. Burges in his book No Sacrilege nor sin &c. 52. & 53. wherof the last reason is , seeing the goods and possessions of the Church , even by the authority of the Canon laws , may be aliened for the redemption of Captives , and that the same may be don by that Church only to whom such possessions do belong ▪ it is fit and reasonable that such dispensations should be granted for continuing of possession already gotten , for so great a good of publick concord and vnity of the Church , and preservation of the State , as well in body as in soul pag. 54. edit . 1660. A publick Trial and Conference desired by Catholicks . See Doctor Allen in his Apol. for the Seminaries . And Persons in his Defence of the Censure . Arch. Lauds reason confuted . See the Nullity of the Protestant Church , and Clergy . See also my Erasus junior ▪ and an other book of mine called Erastus seni . See the late or last Editiō of the Common prayer book since his Maj. happy restauration and there you shall find the words Priest and Bishop put into this their new form ; which are not in their old . See the Sect. of the second Part of this Treatise and the first Part , Sect. 1. See 1 ▪ p. Sect. 1. The King 's right to France . My Lord of Clarendons policy censured by all Wise men . One of the King of Spain his Ministers told me , that the late King Philip 4. had disburs'd for the Defence of the Low Countries , four hundred Millions of Ducats , which amounts one hundred Millions sterl . All this Treasure was sent out of Spain . Monsieur de Silbon in his 3. Book of Policy ▪ Discourse 4 of the Alliance of of Princes , &c. Pag. 295. Perpetual miracles . The miracle of St. Ianuarius at Naples . This miracle failed once when it was shewed privatly to a yong english Lord , and this failing was printed in the Italian Gazets as very strange news . The famous and vndeniable miracle of St ▪ Francis Xaverius wrought in the person of Marcello Mastrilli . I was at Lis●on when this holy Martyr embarcke there for the East Indy , in order to his further navigation to Japan , some 30. year since ▪ and I heard Marcello relate his own miraculous cure ; and do remember what str●ving there was between Passengers , and Merchants to ship their goods and persons in the same vessel wherin Marcello was to embark not doubting of its safe arrival at Go● ; so satisfied were all sorts of people of the truth of the miracle , and of the accomplishment of his Martyrdom in Iapā , revealed to him by St. Xaverius . Whitak de Ecclesia pag. 349. Bp. Laud against Fisher pag. 108. Calvin Harm . in Marc. cap. 13. p. 302. miracula sigilla sunt verae doctrinae . Nam quis vel cogit & absque blasphemia , Deū commodaturum suam propriam vim virtutemque mendacio ? Chamier tom . 2. Controv. lib. 16. cap. 14 p. 677. Gods veracity questioned by Protestāts , when they answer to the argument deduced from Roman Catholick miracles . A demonstratiō to prove that God can not permit true true miracles to confirm fals doctrin . Ioan. 15.24 . Matth. 11. ●● . Ioan. 10. ●● . 38 . Ioan. ● . ●● . Anti Christs Miracles are not credible if compared with ours . Of visible miracles seen thought not observed , by every Protestant , in confirmation of our Roman faith . The difference between true and fals miracles . St. Bernard in vita St. Malac. c. 57. See Belarmin de Ecclesia lib. 4. cap. 29. St. Chrysostom . de Sacerdotio lib. 6. cap 4. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament . St. Nilus in ep . ad Anastasium . St. Gregory Naz. Orat. 11. de obit● Gorgonia . St. Cyprian . in serm . de lapsis . Post medium . Communion vnder one Kind . Evagrius Orthodoxus . lib. 4. c. 35. an . Dom. 552 A miracle for the Communion vnder one Kind . Transubstantiation . Petrus Diac. & Ioan Diac. in vita● . Gregorij : Gui●mūdus Anersanns Episc. lib 3. de Sacram . Euch. St Antonin . in Chron. p. 2. cap. 3. tit . 12. §. 8. Primat Vshers falsification● to discredit this story , and the following . Answer pag. 69. Vsher Answer pag. 69 Particulam carnis quam super Altare posuera● , ca●nem factam reperit . Ioan. Diac. in vita S. Gregor . lib. 2. cap. 41. Vsher in his Catalogue of Authors Vsher Answer paeg . 77. Doctor Humphrey in Iesuitismi part . 2. ●at . 5. pag. 5. Thomas Waldensis Tom. 2. de Sacram. Eui char . c. 62. Harpsfeild in Hist. Wicleff . cap. 18. ex Waldens . & Regist. Arundell . See Parsons sober Reckoning a pag. 508. How Protestants falsify and corrupt the very statuts , and law Books . Optatus Melevitanus l. 2 contra Donatistas . Perrexit vnus , obtulit ibi Sacrificiū Corporis & Sanguinis Christi , ●rans quantum potuit , vt cessare● illa ●exatio , Deoque protinus mis●rant● cessavit . Aug. de Civitate Dei l. 22 c. 28. Theodorus lector lib. 2. Coll●ctaneo●rum . Purgatory and Prayer for the Dead . St. Gregory l. 4. Moral ▪ c. 55. St. Gregory 4. Dial. 40. Miracles wrought by St. Bernard to confirm every point of the Roman Catholick doctrin . Gofrid . in vi● . S. Bern. lib. 3. c ▪ 5. & 6. Willelmus Abbas St Nicodorici Remensis l. 1. c. 10. Bernardus Abbas Banevallis . See the Centurists Centur . 12. col . 1634.1635 . & 1649. alledging St. Bernard giving Testimony of his own miracles . Osiander in Epit. Cent. 12. l 4. c. 6. pag. 310. saith of St. Bernard , miracula ei prope infinita à Pontificiis scriptoribus affinguntur , quae ego partim ab otiosis Monachis excogitata puto , partim permissione Dei praestigijs Satani●is effecta existimo ▪ non quod Sanctū Bernardum magum fuisse putem , sed quod vero simile sit Satanam talia miracula effecisse &c. Tales fuisse puto St. Bernardi visiones & post mortē suam apparitiones , praestigias videlicet diabolicas , quibus Satan & ipsi Sancto Bernardo ( dum viveret ) & aliis illusit . Whitaker de Ecclesia pag. 369. ego quidem Bernardum vere fuisse sanctū existimo . Adomnem progressum atque promotum , ad omnem aditum & exitum , ad vestitum & calceatum , ad lavacra , ad mensa● , ad lumina & cubilia , quaecumque nos conversatio exercet , frontem Crucis signaculo ●erimus , cujus disciplinae si legem expostules scripturam nullā invenies : traditio tibi praetenditur auctrix , consuetudo confirmatrix , fides observatrix . Tertull. de Corona Militis c. 3. & 4. Cyril . Hiero. Catech. 13. S. Iren. l. 1. c. 20. & 25. Epist. ad Philip. 3. Epiphan . haer . 21 & 28 Theoder . 2. haer . fab· 4. & alij . S. Paulinus natal . 10. S. Felic . S. Paulinus Nol. ep . 11. ad Severum . Ope rante virtute divina jugi miraculo in materia in sensata vim vi●am tenens , ita innum●ris paene quotidie hominum votis lignum suum commodauit , vt detrimenta non sentiret , & quasi intacta permanserit , quotidie divid●è sumentibus , & semper tota venerantibus . Nicephorus lib. 8. cap. 29. S. Hierom in vita S. Hilarionis in fin . S. Gregory Turon . 2. hist. 3. Protestant miracles are but Cheats . S. Gregory Nazian . orat . in Julian . Theodoret . lib. 3. c. 3. Some Protestants agree with pagans and Magitians in contemning the sign of the Cross , and maintaining the Devils power against it . Osiander Cent. 4. pag. 326. speaking of the Devils flying away at Julians making the sign of the Cross , saith , Diaboli simulata sua fuga voluerunt vulgi superstitionem confirmare , quasi Cruci● signo Daemones abigantur . The same say the Centurists Cent. 4. col . 1446. Act. 5.15 . Evagr. 4. hist. 29 ▪ St. Damasc. 4. de fide Orthod . 17. Niceph. ● . hist. 7. Metaphr . 15. non & in vit● S. Alexii . Tom. 3. Concil . Hadrianus Papa ad Carol. Magnum Methodius Episcopus apud Marian . scot . in Chron. an . Dm. 3. S. Bedae de loc . sāct . c. 8. & 5. Euseb 7. hist. 14 Niceph . lib. 10. c. 30. Theophilactus in cap. 9. Math. Sozom. lib. 5. cap. 20. ad Metaphrast . 20. Octob. Centur. 4. c. 13. col . 1447. Iustus Lipsius Diva Sichimiensis edit . Antuerp . an . 1605. cap. 45. The Protestant distinction of civil and Religious worship misapplied by Ministers to delude their flocks . St. Austin lib. 3. de Trin. c 10. Speaking of such holy signs as Images , saith , Honorem tamquam religiosa possunt habere . S. Ambros. sec. 10. Qui imaginem coronat Jmperatoris , utique illum honorat , cujus imaginem coronauit ; & qui statuam contempserit Imperatoris , Imperatori utique fecisse videtur injuriam . S. Hierom. contra Vigilant . Euseb. hist. lib 4. c. 15. Centuriatores cent . 2. c. 3. col 31. St. Ambrose serm . 39 de sanctis Naza● ▪ & Celso in fin . Our doctrin of Indulgences is confirmed by the same miracles that confirm worship of Saints , Pilgrimages &c. because Indulgences are commonly annexed to these devotions . S. Ambros. ep . 85 ad Mar. soror . & ser. 93. de Inventione corporum S. Gervasij & Protasij : Ariani dicunt , non sunt Daemonum vera tormenta , sed ficta & composita ludi bria . S. Hierom. contra Vigilant cap. 4. In morem Gentilium , impiorumque Porphyrij ▪ & Eunomij , has praestigias Daemonum esse confin●ga● , & non vere clamare Daemon●s , sed simulare tormenta &c. S ▪ Chrysost. in lib. contra Gentiles , speaking of Babylas , sententiae nostrae abunde faciunt fidē , quae quotidiana à Martyribus eduntur miracula . Cent. 4. cap. 13. col 14●6 Nazianzen . Orat. in Cyprian . saith . Omnia potest pulvis Cypriani cum fide , ut sciunt hi qui ipsi experti sunt , & miracula usque ad nos transmiserunt . A miracle to confirm the worship and devotion of the Mother of God. S. Basil. de Spirit . S. c. 27 Alexan. 1. ep . 1. Hebr. 9.13 . S. Clem. lib. 8. Const. cap 35. Dion de Eccles hier cap de Baptismo . Cyril . Caie● ch . 3. Cypr. lib. 1. epist. 12. Ambr. lib. 4. de Sacr. c. 5. & l. de iis qui initiant . cap. 3. Epiph. haer . 30. August . hom 27. epist. 50 & Serm. 9. de Sanct & lib. 6. in Jul. c. 8. Conc. Nannit cap. 4. Act. 8.14 . & 19.6 . Heretofore part . 4. Serm. 215. de temp . Hom. 49. ep . 50. cap. 3. & ho● 41. & 50. cap. 4. & 5. Mat. 18.18 . Ioan. 20.23 . De laps . vide ep . 10 & 55. Quaest ●88 . in reg . 〈◊〉 . vide quaest . 229. & in ep . 3. can . ad Amphil. can . 78. St. Bedes holines and great learing acknowledged by Iohn Fox : as also his excellency in the knowledge of Scripture , and yet he never had the least scruple that worship of Jmages was Idolatry , or that any point of Popery was contrary to Scripture , himself having bin a professed Popish Monk , and confessed by Protestāts to be a great Saint . The obstinacy of Protestants in rejecting and corrupting the ancient Fathers . A notable corruption and impudency of Calvin Calvin l. 2. Jnst. c. 3. S. Aug. l. de corr . & gratia ad valent . cap. 12. & l. 22. de Civit. Dei c. 30. S Aug. lib. de cura pro mortuis c. 2. & 4. Fox his miracles how ridiculous . See Fox his Act. and Monum pag. 1843. 1844. He that believeth in me the workes that I do , he shall do , and greater : Ioan. 14.12 . In the marginal notes of the English Bible printed 1576. it is therupon sayd , This is referred to the vvhole body of the Church , in vvhom this vertue doth shine for ever . See Mr. Vdal in his book of the life and death of the Queen of Scots , dedicated so K. James . Part. 2. A discourse with Mr Dan. Oneal● in Flanders . A paralel between Mahometism and Protestancy . See heretofore part . 2. sec. 10. & 11. S. Iohn Damascen de haeres . sayth that Mahomet granted Christ as the word of God and his son , but withall a Creature , and confessed that he was conceived of the Virgin Mary by vertue of the holy Ghost . See heretofore part . ● . sec. 2. See Heretofore part . 2. sec. 11. See heretofore part 2. sec. 10. how the most learned Protestants of the world became Turcks and Iews sticking to the principles of Protestancy . Notes for div A62548-e120240 S. Bede lib ● hist. cap 25. who liued an . Dom. 700. [A] See Iohn Bole Bishop of Ossery in act . Rom. Pontif. edit Basil. 15●8 . pag. 44.45 46. & 47. See also Osiander in Epitom . Cent 6 pag. 288.289 . & 290. Carion in Chronic. lib. 4 pag. 567. See the Century writers of Magdeburg Cent. 6 cap 10. col 748 384 37● . 376 ▪ 381 425. ● seqq See Dr. Humphry in Iesuitismi . p. 2. ra● . 5 pag 5. & 627. all of them confessing that S. Austin taught the very same doctrin in all particulars that we Papists now profess . S. Bede lib. 1. cap. 25. & 26. S. Bede lib. 2. cap. 2. S. Bede lib ▪ 1. cap. 32. Sets down S. Gregories letter to king Ethelbert , wherin he gives him this caracter of S. Austin : our right reverend Brother Augustin , Bishop , being brought vp in the rule of Religion , having good knowledge in the holy Scriptures , and a man through the grace of God , of much vertue , whatsoever he shal advertise you to do , gladly hear it , devoutly perform it , diligently Remember it . (B) And ibid. cap. 13. he sets dow● S ▪ Gregories letter to S. Austin , exhorting him no● to glory in himself for the Miracles which God vvrought by him for the instruction of others . J knovv ( saith holy Gregory ) deer Brother that it pleaseth God to sh●●● by the● great miracles among the people , Whom by thee he hath called to his faith . Wherevpō it is needfull ; that of that most heavenly guift , both thou joy ▪ vvith fear , and fear with joy . Thou hast to joy , for that by means of the said Miracles the English mens souls are won to the faith : Thou hast to fear , least through the miracles ●hich be don by thee , thy weak mind be lifted up in presumptiō falling as far invvardly by vain Glory , as thou art by outward prays puffed vp ▪ &c. And concludes his letter thus ! And what●oever grace thou either hast , or shall receive to work miracles , think i● given thee ▪ not for thyn own sake , but for theirs , the Minister of vvhose salvation thou art ordained . (C) D. Fulk in his confut of purgat . calls St. Austins preaching , our perversion Mr. Powell calls him a fals Apostle ; Mr. Ascham in Apol . pro Caen. Dom. pag. 33. calls him the establisher of all Popish Doctrin . Mr. Willet in his Tetrastylon Papismi , pag. 122. placeth St. Gregory and St. Austin among the first Fathers of Superstition , and Captains and Ringleaders of Popish Divines . &c. 
A61588	----	A rational account of the grounds of Protestant religion being a vindication of the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury's relation of a conference, &c., from the pretended answer by T.C. : wherein the true grounds of faith are cleared and the false discovered, the Church of England vindicated from the imputation of schism, and the most important particular controversies between us and those of the Church of Rome throughly examined / by Edward Stillingfleet ... Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. 1665 Approx. 2884 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 337 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A61588 Wing S5624 ESTC R1133 13659642 ocm 13659642 101069 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. 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An answer to Thomas Carwell's Labyrinthus Cantuariensis. Conference is between Laud and Fisher. Cf. BM. Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). The general aim of EEBO-TCP is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic English-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in EEBO. 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Carwell, Thomas, 1600-1664. -- Labyrinthus Cantuariensis. Church of England -- Doctrines. Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Protestantism -- Apologetic works. 2004-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-04 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-06 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2004-06 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion E Typographiâ prodeat opus istud cui Titulus , A Rational Account of the Grounds of Protestant Religion , being a Vindication of the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury's Relation of a Conference , &c. from the Pretended Answer by T. C. Humfr. London . 2. Novemb. 1664. A Rational Account OF THE GROUNDS OF Protestant Religion : BEING A VINDICATION OF THE Lord Archbishop of Canterbury's RELATION Of a CONFERENCE , &c. From the pretended ANSWER by T. C. Wherein the true GROUNDS of FAITH are cleared , and the False discovered ; the CHURCH of ENGLAND Vindicated from the imputation of Schism ; and the most important particular Controversies between Us and Those of the Church of ROME throughly examined . By EDWARD STILLINGFLEET B. D. LONDON , Printed by Rob. White for Henry Mortlock at the Sign of the Phoenix in St. Pauls Church-yard near the little North-door . 1665. TO HIS MOST Sacred Majesty CHARLES II. By the Grace of God King of Great Britain , France , and Ireland , Defender of the Faith , &c. Most Gracious Soveraign , SInce that great Miracle of Divine Providence in your Majesties most happy restauration , we have seen those who before triumphed over the Church of England as dead , as much expressing their envy at her resurrection . Neither could it otherwise be expected , but that so sudden a recovery of her former lustre , would open the mouths of her weak but contentious Adversaries , who see her shine in a Firmament so much above them . But it is a part of her present Felicity , that they are ashamed of that insulting Question , What is become of your Church now ? and are driven back to their old impertinency , Where was your Church before Luther ? They might as well alter the date of it , and ask Where she was before your Majesties restauration ? For as she only suffered an Eclipse in the late confusions ; no more did she , though of a longer stay , in the times before the Reformation . And it was her great Honour , that she was not awakened out of it ( as of old they fancied ) by the beating of drums , or the rude clamours of the people ; but as she Gradually regained her light , so it was with the Influence of Supream Authority . Which hath caused so close an union and combination of Interests between them , that the Church of England , and the Royal Family , have like Hippocrates his Twins both wept and rejoyc'd together . And nothing doth more argue the excellent constitution of our Church , than that therein the purity of Christian Doctrine is joyned with the most hearty Acknowledgment of your Majesties Power and Supremacy . So that the Loyalty of the members of it , can neither be suspected of private Interest , or of depending on the pleasure of a Forreign Bishop , but is inlaid in the very Foundations of our Reformation . Which stands on those two Grand Principles of Religion and Government ; The giving to God the things that are God's , and to Caesar the things that are Caesar's . And as long as these two remain unshaken , we need not fear the continuance and flourishing of the Reformed Church of England , and your Majesties Interest in the members of it . Which it is hard to conceive those can have any zeal for , who are the busie Factours among us for promoting so opposite an Interess as that of the Church of Rome . For what a contradiction is it , to suppose it consistent with your Majesties Honour and Interess , to rob your Imperial Crown of one of the richest Jewels of it , to expose Your Royal Scepter to the mercy of a Forreign Prelat , to have another Supreme Head acknowledged within Your Dominions , and thereby to cut off the dependence of a considerable part of the Nation wholly from Your Self , and to exhaust the Nation of an Infinite Mass of Treasure meerly to support the Grandeur of the See of Rome ? They who can make men believe that these things tend to Your Majesties Service , think they have gained thereby a considerable step to their Religion , which is by baffling mens reason , and perswading them to believe contradictions . But if , notwithstanding the received principles of their Church , any have continued Faithful in their Loyalty to Your Majesty , we have much more cause to attribute it to their Love to their King and Country , than to their Religion . We deny not , but there may be such rare tempers which may conquer the malignity of poison , but it would be a dangerous Inference from thence , that it ought not to be accounted hurtful to humane nature . If any such have been truly Loyal , may they continue so , and their number increase : and since therein they so much come off from themselves , we hope they may yet come nearer to us , whose Religion tends as much to the settling the only sure Foundations of Loyalty , as theirs doth to the weakning of them . And were this the only Controversie between us , there need not many Books be written to perswade men of the Truth of it . But if these men may be believed , we can as little please God on the principles of our Church , as they Your Majesty on the principles of theirs . A strange Assertion ! and impossible to be entertain'd by any , but those who think there is no such way to please God , as to renounce the judgement of Sense and Reason . And then indeed we freely confess , there are none so likely to do it , as themselves . With whom men are equally bound to believe the greatest repugnancies to sense and reason , with the most Fundamental Verities of Christian Faith. As though no Faith could carry men to Heaven , but that which can , not only remove , but swallow Mountains . Yet these are the persons who pretend to make our Faith Infallible , while they undermine the Foundations of it , as they advance Charity by denying Salvation to all but themselves , and promote true Piety by their gross Superstitions . By all which they have been guilty of debauching Christianity in so high a measure , that it cannot but heartily grieve those who honour it as the most excellent Religion in the World , to see its beauty so much clouded by the Errours and Superstitions of the Roman Church . That these are great as well as sad truths , is the design of the ensuing Book to discover . Which I humbly present to Your Majesties hands , both as it is a Defence of that Cause wherein Your Majesties Interess is so highly concern'd , and of that Book which Your Royal Father of most Glorious Memory so highly honoured , not only by his own perusal and approbation , but by the commendation of it to his Dearest Children . On which account , I am more encouraged to hope for your Majesties acceptance of this , because it appears under the Shadow , as well as for the Defence , of so great a Name . And since God hath blessed Your Majesty with so happy and rare a mixture , of Power , and Sweetness of Temper , May they be still imployed in the Love and Defence of our Reformed Church ; which is the hearty prayer of Your Majesties most Loyal and Obedient Subject , E. STILLINGFLEET . THE PREFACE TO THE READER . IT is now about a twelvemonth , since there appeared to the world a Book , under the Title of Dr. Lawd's Labyrinth ; but , with the usual sincerity of those persons , pretended to be Printed some years before . It is not the business of this Preface to enquire , Why if Printed then , it remained so long unpublished , but to acquaint the Reader with the scope and design of that Book , and of this which comes forth as a Reply to it . There are three things mainly in dispute between us , and those of the Church of Rome , viz. Whether they , or we , give the more satisfactory account of the Grounds of Faith ? Whether their Church , or ours , be guilty of the charge of Schism ? And , Whether their Church be justly accused by us of introducing many Errours and Superstitions ? In the handling of these , all our present Debate consists ; and therefore , for the greater Advantage of the Reader , I have distributed the whole into three distinct parts : which I thought more commodious , than carrying it on in one continued discourse . And , lest our Adversaries should complain , that we still proceed in a destructive way , I have not only endeavoured to lay open the palpable weakness of their Cause , but to give a rational account of our own Doctrine in opposition to theirs . Which I have especially done in the great Controversie of the Resolution of Faith , as being the most difficult and important of any other . I hope the Reader will have no cause to blame me for false or impertinent Allegations of the Fathers , since it hath been so much my business to discover the fraud of our Adversaries in that particular : which I have chiefly done from the scope and design of those very Books , out of which their testimonies are produced . In many of the particular Differences , I have made use of several of their late Writers against themselves ; both to let them see , how much Popery begins to grow weary of it self ; and , how unjustly they condemn us for denying those things , which the moderate and rational men of their own side disown , and dispute against as well as we ; and chiefly to undeceive the world , as to their great pretence of Unity among themselves . Since their Divisions are grown to so great a height both at home , and in foreign parts , that the dissenting parties mutually charge each other with Heresie , and that about their great Foundation of Faith , viz. the Popes Infallibility ; The Jansenists in France , and a growing party in England , charging the Jesuits with Heresie in asserting it , as they do them with the same for denying it . As to my self , I only declare , that I have with freedom and impartiality enquired into the Reasons on both sides , and no interest hath kept me from letting that side of the ballance fall , where I saw the greater weight of reason . In which respect , I have been so far from dissembling the force of any of our Adversaries Arguments , that if I could add greater weight to them , I have done it ; being as unwilling to abuse my self as the world . And therefore I have not only consulted their greatest Authours , especially the three famous Cardinals , Baronius , Bellarmin , and Perron ; but the chiefest of those , who , under the name of Conciliators , have put the fairest Varnish on the Doctrine of that Church . However , I have kept close to my Adversary , and followed him through all his windings , from which I return with this satisfaction to my self , that I have vindicated his Lordship and Truth together . As to the style and way of writing I use , all that I have to say , is , that my design hath been to joyn clearness of Expression , with evidence of Reason . What success I have had in it , must be left to the Readers judgement ; I only desire him to lay aside prejudice as much in judging , as I have done in writing ; otherwise I despair of his doing me right , and of my doing him good . For , though reason be tractable and ingenuous , yet prejudice and interest are invincible things . Having done thus much by way of Preface , I shall not detain thee longer , by a particular Answer to the impertinencies of our Authours Preface , since there is nothing contained therein , but what is abundantly answered in a more proper place . And I cannot think it reasonable to abuse so much the Readers Appetite , as to give him a tedious Preface to cloy his stomach . If any , after perusal of the whole , shall think fit to return an Answer , if they do it fairly and rationally , they shall receive the same civility ; if with clamour and impertinency , I only let them know , I have not leisure enough to kill Flyes , though they make a troublesome noise . If any service be done to God , or the Church , by this present work , next to that Divine Assistance , through which I have done it , thou owest it to those great Pillars of our Church , by whose command and encouragement I undertook it . Who the Authour was of the Book I answer , I have been the less solicitous to enquire , because I would not betray the weakness of my cause , by mixing personal matters in debates of so great importance . And , whether he be now living , or dead , I suppose our Adversaries cannot think it at all material , unless they judge that their Cause doth live and dye with him . THE CONTENTS . PART I. Of the Grounds of Faith. CHAP. I. The Occasion of the Conference , and Defence of the Greek Church . T. Cs. Title examined and retorted . The Labyrinth found in his Book and Doctrine . The occasion of the Conference about the Churches Infallibility . The rise of the dispute about the Greek Church , and the consequences from it . The Charge of Heresie against the Greek Church examined , and she found , Not-guilty , by the concurrent testimony of Fathers , General Councils , and Popes ▪ Of the Council of Florence and the proceedings there ; That Council neither General nor Free. The distinction of Ancient and Modern Greeks , disproved . The debate of the Filioque being inserted into the Creed . The time when and the right by which it was done , discussed . The rise of the Schism between the Eastern and Western Churches , mainly occasioned by the Church of Rome . Page 1. CHAP. II. Of Fundamentals in General . The Popish Tenet concerning Fundamentals , a meer step to the Roman Greatness . The Question about Fundamentals stated . An enquiry into the nature of them . What are Fundamentals , in order to particular persons ; and what to be owned as such , in order to Ecclesiastical Communion . The Prudence and Moderation of the Church of England , in defining Articles of Faith. What judged Fundamental by the Catholick Church . No new Articles of Faith can become necessary . The Churches power in propounding matters of Faith , examined . What is a sufficient Proposition . Of the Athanasian Creed , and its being owned by the Church of England . In what sense the Articles of it are necessary to Salvation . Of the distinction of the material and formal object of Faith , as to Fundamentals . His Lordship's integrity , and T. C. his forgery , in the testimony of Scotus . Of Heresie , and how far the Church may declare matters of Faith. The testimony of St. Augustine vindicated . Page 44. CHAP. III. The Absurdities of the Romanists Doctrine of Fundamentals . The Churches Authority must be Divine , if whatever she defines be Fundamental . His Lordship , and not the Testimony of S. Augustine , shamefully abused , three several wayes . Bellarmin not mis-cited ; the Pelagian Heresie condemned by the General Council at Ephesus . The Popes Authority not implyed in that of Councils . The gross Absurdities of the distinction of the Church teaching and representative , from the Church taught and diffusive , in the Question of Fundamentals . The Churches Authority and Testimony in matters of Faith , distinguished . The Testimony of Vincentius Lirinensis explained , and shewed to be directly contrary to the Roman Doctrine of Fundamentals . Stapleton and Bellarmin , not reconciled by the vain endeavours used to that end . Page 79. CHAP. IV. The Protestant Doctrine of Fundamentals , vindicated . The unreasonableness of demanding a Catalogue of Fundamentals . The Creed contains the Fundamentals of Christian Communion . The belief of Scripture supposed by it . The Dispute concerning the Sense of Christs Descent into Hell , and Mr. Rogers his Book , confessed by T. C. impertinent : With others of the same nature . T. C. his fraud , in citing his Lordships words . Of Papists and Protestants Vnity . The Moderation of the Church of England , compared with that of Rome . Her grounds of Faith justified . Infant-Baptism how far proved out of Scripture alone . Page 98. CHAP. V. The Romanists way of Resolving Faith. The ill consequences of the resolution of Faith by the Churches Infallibility . The grand Absurdities of it , manifested by its great unreasonableness in many particulars . The certain Foundations of Faith unsettled by it , as is largely proved . The Circle unavoidable by their new attempts . The impossibility of proving the Church Infallible by the way that Moses , Christ , and his Apostles were proved to be so . Of the Motives of Credibility , and how far they belong to the Church . The difference between Science and Faith considered , and the new art of mens believing with their wills . The Churches Testimony must be , according to their principles , the formal object of Faith. Of their esteem of Fathers , Scripture , and Councils . The rare distinctions concerning the Churches Infallibility discussed . How the Church can be Infallible by the assistance of the Holy Ghost , yet not divinely Infallible , but in a manner and after a sort . T.C. applauded for his excellent faculty in contradicting himself . Page 109. CHAP. VI. Of the Infallibility of Tradition . Of the unwritten Word , and the necessary Ingredients of it . The Instances for it particularly examined and disproved . The Fathers Rule for examining Traditions . No unwritten Word the Foundation of Divine Faith. In what sense Faith may be said to be Divine . Of Tradition being known by its own light , and the Canon of the Scripture . The ●estimony of the Spirit , how far pertinent to this Controversie . Of the use of Reason in the resolution of Faith. C's . Dialogue answered , with another between himself and a Sceptick . A twofold resolution of Faith into the Doctrine , and into the Books . Several Objections answered from the Supposition made of a Child brought up without sight of Scripture . Christ no Ignoramus nor Impostor , though the Church be not Infallible . C's . Blasphemy in saying otherwise . The Testimonies of Irenaeus and S. Augustin examined and retorted . Of the nature of Infallible Certainty , as to the Canon of Scripture ; and whereon it is grounded . The Testimonies produced by his Lordship , vindicated . p. 161. CHAP. VII . The Protestant Way of resolving Faith. Several Principles premised in order to it . The distinct Questions set down , and their several Resolutions given . The Truth of matters of fact , the Divinity of the Doctrine , and of the Books of Scripture , distinctly resolved into their proper grounds . Moral Certainty a sufficient Foundation for Faith , and yet Christian Religion proved to be infallibly true . How Apostolical Tradition made by his Lordship a Foundation of Faith. Of the Certainty we have of the Copies of Scripture , and the Authority of them . S. Augustine's Testimony concerning Church-Authority largely discussed and vindicated . Of the private Spirit , and the necessity , of Grace . His Lordship's Way of resolving Faith vindicated . How far Scripture may be said to be known by its own Light. The several Testimonies of Bellarmine , Brierly , and Hooker , cleared . p. 202. CHAP. VIII . The Churches Infallibility not proved from Scripture . Some general Considerations from the design of proving the Churches Infallibility from Scripture . No Infallibility in the High-Priest and his Clergy under the Law ; if there had been , no necessity there should be under the Gospel . Of S. Basil's Testimony concerning Traditions . Scripture less liable to corruptions than Traditions . The great uncertainty of judging Traditions , when Apostolical , when not . The Churches perpetuity being promised in Scripture , proves not its Infallibility . His Lordship doth not falsifie C's . words , but T. C. doth his meaning . Producing the Jesuits words no traducing their Order . C's . miserable . Apology for them . The particular Texts produced for the Churches Infallibility , examined . No such Infallibility necessary in the Apostles Successours , as in Themselves . The Similitude of Scripture and Tradition to an Ambassadour and his Credentials , rightly stated p. 235. CHAP. IX . The Sense of the Fathers in this Controversie . The Judgement of Antiquity enquired into , especially of the three first Centuries ; and the reasons for it , The several Testimonies of Justin Martyr , Athenagoras , Tatianus , Irenaeus , Clemens Alexandrinus , and all the Fathers who writ in vindication of Christian Religion , manifested to concurr fully with our way of resolving Faith. C's . Answers to Vincentius Lyrinensis , à Gandavo , and the Fathers produced by his Lordship , pitifully weak . The particulars of his 9th . Chapter examined . S. Augustine's Testimony vindicated . C's . nauseous Repetitions sent as Vagrants to their several homes . His Lordships Considerations found too heavy for C's . Answers . In what sense the Scripture may be called a Praecognitum . What way the Jews resolved their Faith. This Controversie , and the first part , concluded . p. 261 PART II. Of Schism . CHAP. I. Of the Universal Church . THe Question of Schism explained . The nature of it enquired into . Several general Principles laid down for clearing the present Controversie . Three grounds of the charge of Schism on Protestant Churches by our Authour . The first , of the Roman Churches being the Catholick Church , entred upon . How far the Roman Church may be said to be a true Church . The distinction of a Church morally , and metaphysically true , justified . The grounds of the Unity of the Catholick Church , as to Doctrine and Government . Cardinal Perron's distinction of the formal , causal , and participative Catholick Church examined . The true sense of the Catholick Church in Antiquity manifested from S. Cyprian , and several cases happening in his time : as , the Schism of Novatianus at Rome ; the case of Felicissimus and Fortunatus . Several other Instances out of Antiquity to the same purpose , by all which it is manifest , that the Unity of the Catholick Church had no dependence on the Church of Rome . The several Testimonies to the contrary , of S. Ambrose , S. Hierom , John Patriarch of Constantiople , S. Augustine , Optatus , &c. particularly examined ; and all found short of proving that the Roman Church is the Catholick Church . The several Answers of his Lordship to the Testimonies of S. Cyprian , S. Hierom , S. Greg. Nazianzen , S. Cyril , and Ruffinus , about the Infallibility of the Church of Rome , justified . From all which it appears , that the making the Roman Church to be the Catholick , is a great Novelty , and perfect Jesuitism . p. 289. CHAP. II. Protestants no Schismaticks . Schism a culpable Separation ; therefore the Question of Schism must be determined by enquiring into the causes of it . The plea from the Church of Rome's being once a right Church , considered . No necessity of assigning the punctual time when errours crept into her . An account why the originals of errours seem obscure . By Stapletons Confession , the Roman and Catholick Church were not the same . The falsi●y of that assertion manifested , that there could be no pure Church since the Apostles times , if the Roman Church were corrupt . No one particular Church free from corruptions ; yet no separation from the Catholick Church . How far the Catholick Church may be said to erre . Men may have distinct communion from any o●e particular Church , yet not separate from the Catholick Church . The Testimony of Petrus de Alliaco vindicated . Bellarmin not mis cited . Almain full to his Lordships purpose . The Romanists guilty of the present Schism , and not Protestants . In what sense there can be no just cause of Schism ; and how far that concerns our case . Protestants did not depart from the Church of Rome , but were thrust out of it . The Vindication of the Church of Rome from Schism , at last depends upon the two false Principles , of her Infallibility , and being the Catholick Church . The Testimonies of S. Bernard , and S Austin not to the purpose . The Catalogue of Fundamentals , the Churches not erring , &c. referr'd back to their proper places . p. 324. CHAP. III. Of keeping Faith with Hereticks . The occasion of this Dispute . The reason why this Doctrine is not commonly defended : Yet all own such Principles from whence it necessar●ly follows . The matter of fact as to the Council of Constance , and John Hus , opened . Of the nature of the safe conduct granted him by the Emperour , that it was not a general one , salvâ justitiâ , but particular , jure speciali ; which is largely proved . The particulars concerning Hierom of Prague . Of the safe-conduct granted by the Council of Trent . Of the distinction of Secular and Ecclesiastical Power , and that from thence it follows , that Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . Simancha , and several others fully assert this Doctrine . Of the Invitation to the Council of Trent , and the good Instructions there ; and of Publick Disputation . p. 343. CHAP. IV. The Reform●tion of the Church of England justified . The Church of Rome guilty of Schism , by unjustly casting Protestants out of Communion . The Communion of the Cathol●ck and particular Churches , distinguished . No separation of Protestants from the Catholick Church . The Devotions of the Church of England and Rome compared . Particular Churches Power to reform themselves in case of general Corruption , proved . The Instance from the Church of Judah vindicated . The Church of Rome paralleld with the ten Tribes . General Corruptions make Reformation the more necessary . Whether those things we condemn as errours , were Catholick Tenets at the time of the Reformation . The contrary shewed , and the d●fference of the Church of Rome before and since the Reformation . When things may be said to be received as Catholick Doctrines . How far particular Churches Power to reform themselves extends . His Lordships Instances for the Power of Provincial Councils in matters of Reformation vindicated . The particular case of the Church of England discussed . The proceedings in our Reformation defended . The Church of England a true Church . The National Synod 1562. a lawful Synod . The B●shops no intruders in Queen Elizabeth's time . The justice and mod●ration of the Church of England in her Reformation . The Popes Power here , a forcible and fraudulent Usurpation . p. 356. CHAP. V. Of the Roman Churches Authority . The Question concerning the Church of Rome's Authority entred upon . How far our Church , in reforming her self , condemns the Church of Rome . The Pope's equality with other Patriarchs , asserted . The Arabick Canons of the Nicene Council proved to be supposititious . The Polity of the Ancient Church discovered from the sixth Canon of the Council of Nice . The Rights of Primats and Metropolitans settled by it . The suitableness of the Ecclesiastical , to the Civil Government . That the Bishop of Rome had then a limitted Jurisdiction within the suburbicary Churches ; as Primate of the Roman Diocese . Of the Cyprian Priviledge ; that it was not peculiar , but common to all Primats of Dioceses . Of the Pope's Primacy according to the Canons , how far pertinent to our dispute . How far the Pope's Confirmation requisite to new elected Patriarchs . Of the Synodical and Communicatory Letters . The testimonies of Petrus de Marcâ concerning the Pope's Power of confirming and deposing Bishops . The Instances brought for it , considered . The case of Athanasius being restored by Julius , truly stated . The proceedings of Constantine in the case of the Donatists cleared , and the evidence thence against the Pope's Supremacy . Of the Appeals of Bishops to Rome , how far allowed by the Canons of the Church . The great case of Appeals between the Roman and African Bishops discussed . That the Appeals of Bishops were prohibited , as well as those of the inferiour Clergy . C's . fraud in citing the Epistle of the African Bishops , for acknowledging Appeals to Rome . The contrary manifested from the same Epistle to Boniface , and the other to Coelestine . The exemption of the Ancient Britannick Church from any subjection to the See of Rome , asserted . The case of Wilfrids Appeal answered . The Primacy of England not derived from Gregory's Grant to Augustine the Monk. The Ancient Primacy of the Britannick Church not lost upon the Saxon Conversion . Of the state of the African Churches , after their denying Appeals to Rome . The rise of the Pope's Greatness under Christian Emperours . Of the Decree of the Sardican Synod , in case of Appeals , whether ever received by the Church : No evidence thence of the Pope's Supremacy . Zosimus his forgery in sending the Sardican Canons instead of the Nicene . The weakness of the Pleas for it , manifested . p. 382. CHAP. VI. Of the Title of Universal Bishop . In what sense the Title of Vniversal Bishop was taken in Antiquity . A threefold acceptation of it ; as importing 1. A general care over the Christian Churches , which is attributed to other Catholick Bishops by Antiquity , besides the Bishop of Rome , as is largely proved . 2. A peculiar dignity over the Churches within the Roman Empire . This accounted then Oecumenical , thence the Bishops of the seat of the Empire called Oecumenical Bishops : and sometimes of other Patriarchal Churches . 3. Noting Vniversal Jurisdiction over the whole Church as Head of it , so never given in Antiquity to the Bishop of Rome . The ground of the Contest about this Title between the Bishops of Rome and Constantinople . Of the proceedings of the Council of Chalcedon , about the Popes Supremacy . Of the Grammatical and Metaphorical sense of this Title . Many arguments to prove it impossible that S. Gregory should understand it in the Grammatical sense . The great absurdities consequent upon it . S. Gregory's Reasons proved to hold against that sense of it , which is admitted in the Church of Rome . Of Irenaeus his opposition to Victor . Victor's excommunicating the Asian Bishops , argues no authority he had over them . What the more powerful principality in Irenaeus is . Ruffinus his Interpretation of the 6. Nicene Canon vindicated . The Suburbicary Churches cannot be understood of all the Churches in the Roman Empire . The Pope no Infallible Successour of S. Peter , nor so acknowledged to be by Epiphanius . S. Peter had no Supremacy of Power over the Apostles . p. 422. CHAP. VII . The Popes Authority not proved from Scripture , or Reason . The insufficiency of the proofs from Scripture , acknowledged by Romanists themselves . The impertinency of Luke 22.32 . to that purpose . No proofs offered for it , but the suspected testimonies of Popes in their own cause . That no Infallibility can thence come to the Pope , as S. Peters Successour , confessed , and proved by Vigorius , and Mr. White . The weakness of the evasion of the Popes erring as a private Doctor , but not as Pope , acknowledged by them . Joh. 21.15 . proves nothing towards the Popes Supremacy . How far the Popes Authority is owned by the Romanists over Kings . C's . beggings of the Question , and tedious repetitions , past over . The Argument from the necessity of a living Judge , considered . The Government of the Church not Monarchical , but Aristocratical . The inconveniencies of Monarchical Government in the Church , manifested from reason . No evidence that Christ intended to institute such Government in his Church , but much against it . The Communicatory letters in the primitive Church , argued an Aristocracy . Gersons testimony from his Book de Auferibilitate Papae , explained and vindicated . S. Hieroms testimony full against a Monarchy in the Church . The inconsistency of the Popes Monarchy with that of temporal Princes . The Supremacy of Princes in Ecclesiastical matters , asserted by the Scripture and Antiquity , as well as the Church of England . p. 451. CHAP. VIII . Of the Council of Trent . The Illegality of it manifested , first from the insufficiency of the Rule it proceeded by , different from that of the first General Councils , and from the Popes Presidency in it . The matter of Right concerning it , discussed . In what cases Superiours may be excepted against as Barties . The Pope justly excepted against as a Party , and therefore ought not to be Judge . The Necessity of a Reformation in the Court of Rome , acknowledged by Roman Catholicks . The matter of fact enquired into , as to the Popes Presidency in General Councils . Hosius did not preside in the Nicene Council as the Popes Legat. The Pope had nothing to do in the second General Council . Two Councils held at Constantinople , within two years ; these strangely confounded . The mistake made evident . S. Cyril not President in the third General Council as the Popes Legat. No sufficient evidence of the Popes Presidency in following Councils . The justness of the Exception against the place , manifested ; and against the freedom of the Council from the Oath taken by the Bishops to the Pope . The form of that Oath in the time of the Council of Trent . Protestants not condemned by General Councils . The Greeks and others unjustly excluded as Schismaticks . The Exception from the small number of Bishops cleared and vindicated . A General Council in Antiqui●y not so called from the Popes General Summons . In what sense a General Council represents the whole Church . The vast difference between the proceedings in the Council of Nice , and that at Trent . The Exception from the number of Italian Bishops , justified . How far the Greek Church and the Patriarch Hieremias may be said to condemn Protestants ; with an account of the proceedings between them . p. 475. PART . III. Of Particular Controversies . CHAP. I. Of the Infallibility of General Councils . HOw far this tends to the ending Controversies . Two distinct Questions concerning the Infallibility and Authority of General Councils . The first entred upon , with the state of the Question . That there can be no certainty of faith , that General Councils are Infallible ; nor , that the particular decrees of any of them are so : which are largely proved . Pighius his Arguments against the Divine Institution of General Councils . The places of Scripture considered , which are brought for the Churches Infallibility , and that these cannot prove that General Councils are so : Matth. 18.20 . Act. 15.28 . particularly answered . The sense of the Fathers in their high expressions of the Decrees of Councils . No consent of the Church as to their Infallibility . The place of St. Austin about the amendment of former General Councils by latter , at large vindicated . No other place in St. Austin prove them Infallible , but many to the contrary . General Councils cannot be Infallible in the conclusion , if not in the use of the means . No such Infallibility without as immediate a Revelation as the Prophets and Apostles had : taking Infallibility not for an absolute unerring Power , but such as comes by a promise of Divine Assistance preserving from errour . No obligation to internal assent , but from immediate Divine Authority . Of the consistency of Faith and Reason in things propounded to be believed . The suitableness of the contrary Doctrine to the Romanists principles . p. 505. CHAP. II. Of the Use and Authority of General Councils . The denying the Infallibility of General Councils takes not away their Vse and Authority . Of the submission due to them by all particular persons . How far external obedience is required in case they erre . No violent opposition to he made against them . Rare Inconveniencies hinder not the effect of a just power . It cannot rationally be supposed , that such General Councils as are here meant should often or dangerously erre . The true notion of a General Council explained . The Freedom requisite in the proceedings of it . The Rule it must judge by Great Difference between external obedience , and internal assent to the Decrees of Councils . This latter unites men in errour , not the former . As great uncertainties supposing General Councils Infallible as not . Not so great certainty requisite for submission as Faith. Whether the Romanists Doctrine of the Infallibility of Councils , or ours , tend more to the Churches peace ? St. Austin explained . The Keyes according to him given to the Church . No unremediable inconvenience supposing a General Council erre . But errours in Faith are so , supposing them Infallible when they are not . The Church hath power to reverse the Decrees of General Councils . The power of Councils not by Divine Institution . The unreasonableness of making the Infallibility of Councils depend on the Popes Confirmation . No consent among the Romanists about the subject of Infallibility , whether in Pope or Councils . No evidence from Scripture , Reason , or Antiquity , for the Popes personal Infallibility . p. 533. CHAP. III. Of the errours of pretended General Councils . The erroneous Doctrine of the Church of Rome in making the Priests intention necessary to the essence of Sacraments . That Principle destructive to all certainty of Faith , upon our Authours grounds . The absurdity of asserting , That Councils define themselves to be Infallible . Sacramental actions sufficiently distinguished from others without the Priests Intention . Of the moral assurance of the Priests Intention , and the insufficiency of a meer virtual Intention . The Popes confirmation of Councils supposeth personal Infallibility . Transubstantiation an errour decreed by Pope and Council . The repugnancy of it to the grounds of Faith. The Testimonies brought for it out of Antiquity examin'd at large , and shewed to be far from proving Transubstantiation . Communion in one kind a violation of Christs Institution . The Decree of the Council of Constance implyes a non obstante to it . The unalterable nature of Christs Institution cleared . The several Evasions considered and answered . No publick Communion in one kind for a thousand years after Christ. The indispensableness of Christs Institution owned by the Primitive Church . Of Invocation of Saints , and the Rhetorical expressions of the Fathers which gave occasion to it . No footsteps of the Invocation of Saints in the three first Centuries ; nor precept or example in Scripture , as our Adversaries confess . Evidences against Invocation of Saints from the Christians Answers to the Heathens . The worship of Spirits and Heroes among the Heathens , justifiable on the same grounds that Invocation of Saints is in the Church of Rome . Commemoration of the Saints without Invocation , in S. Austins time . Invocation of Saints as practised in the Church of Rome , a derogation to the merits of Christ. Of the worship of Images and the near approach to Pagan Idolatry therein . No Vse or Veneration of Images in the Primitive Church . The Church of Rome justly chargeable with the abuses committed in the worship of Images . Page 554. CHAP. IV. Of the possibility of Salvation in the Roman Church . Protestants Concessions ought not to be any ground to prefer the Communion of the Church of Rome . How far those Concessions extend . The uncharitableness of Romanists , if they yield not the same to us . The weakness of the Arguments to prove the Roman Church the safer way to Salvation on Protestant principles . The dangerous Doctrines of Romanists about the easiness of salvation , by the Sacrament of Pennance . The case parallel'd between the Donatists and Romanists , in denying salvation to all but themselves ; and the advantages equal from their adversaries Concessions . The advantage of the Protestants , if that be the safest way which both parties are agreed in , manifested and vindicated in several particulars . The Principle it self at large shewed to be a meer contingent Proposition , and such as may lead to Heresie and Infidelity . The case of the Leaders in the Roman Church , and others , distinguished . The Errours and Superstitions of the Roman Church , make its communion very dangerous in order to Salvation . Page 611. CHAP. V. The Safety of the Protestant Faith. The sufficiency of the Protestant Faith to Salvation , manifested by disproving the Cavils against it . C's tedious Rep●titions passed over . The Argument from Possession at large consider'd . No Prescription allowable , where the Law hath antecedently determined the right . Of the Infallibility of Oral Tradition . That , contrary to the received Doctrine of the Roman Church ; and in it self unreasonable . The Grounds of it examined . The ridiculousness of the Plea of bare Possession , discovered . General Answers returned to the remaining Chapters , consisting wholly of things already discussed . The place of S. Cyprian to Cornelius particularly vindicated . The proof of Succession of Doctrine lyes on the Romanists by their own principles . Page 625. CHAP. VI. The Sense of the Fathers concerning Purgatory . The Advantage which comes to the Church of Rome , by the Doctrine of Purgatory , thence the boldness of our Adversaries in contending for it . The Sense of the Roman Church concerning Purgatory , explained . The Controversie between the Greek and Latin Church concerning it . The Difference in the Church of Rome about Purgatory . Some general Considerations about the Sense of the Fathers , as to its being an Article of Faith. The Doubtfulness and Vncertainty of the Fathers Judgements in this particular , manifested by S. Austin the first who seemed to assert a Purgation before the day of Judgement . Prayer for the Dead used in the Ancient Church , doth not inferr Purgatory . The Primate of Armagh vindicated from our Adversaries Calumnies . The general Intention of the Church distinguished from the private Opinions of particular persons . The Prayers of the Church respected the day of Judgement . The Testimonies of the Fathers in behalf of Purgatory , examined ; particularly of the pretended Dionysius , Tertullian , S. Cyprian , Origen , S. Ambrose , S. Hierom , S. Basil , Nazianzen , Lactantius , Hilary , Gregory Nyssen , &c. And not one of them asserts the Purgatory of the Church of Rome . S. Austin doth not contradict himself about it . The Doctrine of Purgatory no elder than Gregory 1. and built on Credulity and Superstition . The Churches Infallibility made at last the Foundation of the belief of Purgatory . The Falsity of that Principle : and the whole concluded . Page 636. Errata sic corrige . PAge 21 l 12 for which r them p 37 marg . for Baron an . 405. r 447. p 48 l 38 for uniformally r uniformly p 64 l 29 for That r What. p 68 l 1 for Sceptiscism r Scepticism . p 73 l 46 for dissents r assents . p 101 l 3 between you and say insert to p 103 l 14 after men insert were . p 116 l 34 blot out not before a good . p 125 l 37 for Montallo r Montalto . p 12● l 16 for Valentius r Valentia . p 128 l 39 r Infallibility . p 159 l 26 r Assistance . p 178 l 14 blot out b●t before probabl● false p 184 l penult . for it r Christ. p 210 l 42 before any insert for . p 211 l 39 for of the r of this . p 215 l 8 after Sixtine insert and. p 218 l 30 for it r them . p 219 marg . l penult . r vet●stiores . p 230 l 15 r generality . p 235 l 43 blot out but before setting . p 243 l 21 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p 263 l 25 blot out where . l 41 blot out and p 267 l 17 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p 274 l 26 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 marg . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p 297 l 21 , 22 r communication of peace , title of Brotherhood , and common mark of Hospitality p 304 marg . l 10 r Mastrucam p 308 l 30 for from r of . p 312 l 5 r Sardican . p 315 l 38 for contracts r contrasts . p 326 l 46 for interrupted r uninterrupted . p 340 l 33 for now r not . p 344 l 34 for reply r rely . l 45 r Ecclesiastical . p 378 l 12 r And in the first of her reign , of , &c. p 389 l 47 for Protestants r Patriarchs . p 390 l 44 for G●icenus r Cyzicenus . p 403 l 12 r Anulinus . p 408 l 48 before done blot out not . p 416 l 44 for context r contest . p 422 l 4 for satisfied r falsified . l 38 r Pelagius 2 and Gregory 1. p 433 marg . l 8 for ●essime r piissime . p 440 l 36 for most r not . p 442 l 8 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p 447 l 13 r Alexandria . l 24 r elegantissimè . p 448 l 19 for him r them . p 450 l 19 r unless S. Peter had p 469 l 35 after which insert is . p 470 l 6 r Fundavit l 50 for first r fifth . p 474 l 13 r conclude . p 477 marg . r Cusanus . p 495 l 16 for conveying r convening p 497 l 42 for used r abused . p 503 l 8 for your r their . p 506 l 30 blot out are . p 507 l 37 for an easie r any . p 509 l 33 for it r out . p 510 l 48 for he r it . p 540 l 30 r denyes . l 32 before sh●ll insert there . l 39 after is r no. p 550 l 29 r Spirit . l 43 for and r yet . p 551 l 19 for he r they . l 35 place the comma after then . l 43 after know insert not . p 5●6 l 25 for yet r that . p 561 l 43 for w●ll as r that . p 571 marg . l ult r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p 574 l 48 for m●ke r made . l 50 for co●pus r corporis p 582 l 29 r indispens●ble . p 589 l 15 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p 595 l 4 r defensi●le . l 5 r Invocation . p 597 l 19 blot out or no ▪ p 598 l 5 for appropriation r approbation p 622 l 32 for it r is . PART I. Of the Grounds of Faith. CHAP. I. The Occasion of the Conference , and Defence of the Greek Church . T. Cs. Title examined and retorted . The Labyrinth found in his Book and Doctrine . The occasion of the Conference about the Churches infallibility . The rise of the dispute about the Greek Church , and the consequences from it . The charge of Heresie against the Greek Church examined , and she found , Not-guilty , by the concurrent testimony of Fathers , General Councils , and Popes . Of the Council of Florence and the proceedings there ; That Council neither General nor Free. The distinction of Ancient and Modern Greeks disproved . The debate of the Filioque being inserted into the Creed . The time when and the right by which it was done , discussed . The rise of the Schism between the Eastern and Western Churches , mainly occasioned by the Church of Rome . THat which is the common subtilty of Male-factors , to derive , if possible , the imputation of that fault on the persons of their Accusers , which they are most lyable to be charged with themselves , is the great Artifice made use of by you in the Title and Designe of your Book . For there being nothing which your Party is more justly accused for , than involving and perplexing the grounds of Christian Faith under a pretext of Infallibility in your Church , you thought you could not better avoid the odium of it , then by a confident recrimination : And from hence it is that you call his Lordships Book a Labyrinth , and pretend to discover his abstruse turnings , ambiguous windings , and intricate Meanders , as you are pleased to stile them . But those who will take the pains to search your Book for the discoveries made in it , will find themselves little satisfied but only in these , that no cause can be so bad , but interessed persons will plead for it ; and no writing so clear and exact , but a perplexed mind will imagine nothing but Meanders in it . And if dark passages and intricate windings , if obscure sense and perplexed consequences , if uncertain wandrings and frequent self-contradictions may make a writing be call'd a Labyrinth , I know no Modern Artist who comes so near the skill of the Cretan Artificer as your self . Neither is this meerly your own fault ; but , the nature of the cause whose defence you have espoused , is such , as will not admit of being handled in any other manner . For you might assoon hope to perswade a Traveller that his nearest and safest way was through such a Labyrinth as that of Creet , as convince us that the best and surest Resolution of our Faith is into your Churches Infallibility . And while you give out , that all other grounds of Christian Faith are uncertain , and yet are put to such miserable shifts in defence of your own , instead of establishing the Faith of Christians , you expose Christianity it self to the scorn and contempt of Atheists ; who need nothing more to confirm them in their Infidelity , then such a senseless and unreasonable way of proceeding as you make use of , for laying the Foundations of Christian Faith. Your great Principle being , that no Faith can be Divine , but what is Infallible ; and none Infallible , but what is built on a Divine and Infallible Testimony ; and that this Testimony is only that of the present Catholick Church ; and that Church none but yours : and yet after all this you dare not say the Testimony of your Church is Divine , but only in a sort and after a manner . You pretend that our Faith is vain and uncertain , because built only on Moral certainty and Rational evidence ; and yet you have no other proof for your Churches Infallibility , but the motives of credibility . You offer to prove the Churches Infallibility independently on Scripture ; and yet challenge no other Infallibility but what comes by the promise and assistance of the Holy Ghost , which depends wholly on the Truth of the Scripture . You seek to disparage Scripture on purpose to advance your Churches Authority , and yet bring your greatest evidences of the Churches Authority from it . By which Authority of the Church you often tell us that Christian Religion can only be proved to be Infallibly true , when if but one errour be found in your Church , her Infallible Testimony is gone , and what becomes then of Christian Religion ? And all this is managed with a peculiar regard to the Interest of your Church , as the only Catholick Church , which you can never attempt to prove but upon supposition of the Truth of Christianity , the belief of which yet you say depends upon your Churches being the True and Catholick Church . These , and many other such as these , will be found the rare and coherent Principles of your Faith and Doctrine , which I have here only given this taste of , that the Reader may see with what honour to your self and advantage to your Cause , you have bestowed the Title of Labyrinth on his Lordships Book . But yet you might be pardonable , if rather through the weakness of your Cause than your ill management of it , you had brought us into these amazing Labyrinths ; if you had left us any thing whereby we might hope to be safely directed in our passage through them : Whereas you not only endeavour to put men out of the True way , but use your greatest industry to keep them from a possibility of returning into it : by not only suggesting false Principles to them , but decrying the use of those things which should discover their falsity . For although the judgement of sense were that which the Apostles did appeal to ( that which we have seen and heard — declare we unto you ) ; although that were the greatest and surest evidence to them of the Resurrection of Christ ; although Christ himself condemned them for their unbelief and hardness of heart , because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen ; yet according to your Principles men must have a care of relying on the judgement of sense in matters of Faith , lest perchance they should not believe that great Affront to humane Nature , the Doctrine of Transubstantiation . Neither are men only deprived of the judgement of sense , but of the concurrent use of Scripture and Reason ; for these are pretended to be uncertain , fallible , nay , dangerous without the Churches Infallibility : So that the short of your grounds of establishing Faith , is , If we will find our way , we must renounce the judgement of sense and reason , submit our selves and Scripture to an Infallible Guide , and then you tell us we cannot miss of our way ; when it is impossible for us to know our Guide , without the use of those things which we are bid to renounce . These things laid together make us admire more at your confidence than invention in making the current title of your Book to be Dr. Lawd's Labyrinth , in which it is hard to say , whether your immodesty or blindness be the greater . But as though you were the only Heroes for asserting the Christian Cause , and all others but more subtle betrayers of it , you begin your Book with a most ingenious comparison of the learned labours of those of your Church to the stately Temple of Solomon ; and the artificial but pestiferous works of all Heretical Authors ( i. e. all but your selves ) to Labyrinths and intricate Dungeons . In which only your discretion is to be commended , in placing this at the entrance of your Book ; for whosoever looks but further into it , and compares it with that you pretend to answer , will not condemn the choice of your Similitudes , but your forgetfulness in misapplying them . But it matters not what titles you give to the books of our Authors , unless you were better able to confute them : and if no other book of any late Protestant Writer hath been any more discovered to be of this intangling nature , than this of his Lordship ( whom you call our grand Author ) is by you , you may very justly say of them as you do in the next words , they are very liable to the same Reproach : In which we commend your ingenuity , that when you had so lately disparaged our Authors and Writings , you so suddenly wipe off those Aspersions again by giving them the deserved name of Reproaches . When you say his Lordships Book is most artificially composed , we have reason to believe so fair a Testimony from a professed Adversary ; but when notwithstanding this you call it a Labyrinth , we can interpret it only as a fair plea for your not being able to answer it . And who can blame you for calling that a Labyrinth in which you have so miserably lost your self ? but , in pity to you , and justice to the cause I have undertaken , I shall endeavour with all kindness and fairness to reduce you out of your strange entanglements into the plain and easie paths of Truth ; which I doubt not to effect by your own Clew of Scripture and Tradition , by which you may soon discover what a Labyrinth you were in your self , when you had thought to have made directive Marks ( as you call them ) for others to avoid it . To omit therefore any further preface , I shall wait upon you to particulars ; the first of which is , the Occasion of the Conference , which ( you say ) was for the satisfaction of an honourable Lady , who having heard it granted in a former Conference , that there must be a continual visible company ever since Christ teaching unchanged doctrine , in all points necessary to salvation ; and finding ( it seems ) in her own reason that such a company or Church must not be fallible in its teaching , was in quest of a Continual , Visible , Infallible Church , as not thinking it fit for unlearned persons to judge of particular doctrinals , but to depend on the judgement of the true Church . The Question then was not concerning a Continual and Visible Church , which you acknowledge was granted , but concerning such a Church as must be infallible in all she teaches , ( and , if she be infallible , according to your doctrine of Fundamentals , whatever she teaches is necessary to salvation ) which that Lady thought necessary to be first determined , because , saith Mr. Fisher , It was not for her , or any other unlearned persons , to take upon them to judge of particulars , without depending upon the judgement of the true Church ; which seeming to allow of some use of our own judgement , supposing the Churches Authority , you pervert into these words , Not thinking it fit to judge , &c. but to depend , &c. But let them be as they will , unless you gave greater reason for them , it is not material which way they pass . For his Lordship had returned a sufficient Answer to that pretence ( which you are content to take no notice of ) in saying That it is very fit the people should look to the judgement of the Church before they be too busie with particulars . But yet neither Scripture , nor any good Authority denyes them some moderate use of their own understanding and judgement , especially in things familiar and evident , which even ordinary capacities may as easily understand as read . And therefore some particulars a Christian may judge without depending . To which you , having nothing to say , run post to the business of Infallibility : for when it was said , The Lady desired to rely on an Infallible Church , therein , his Lordship says , neither the Jesuite nor the Lady her self spake very advisedly : For an Infallible Church denotes a particular Church , in that it is set in opposition to some other particular Church that is not infallible . Here now you begin your discoveries : for you tell us , he makes this his first crook in his projected Labyrinth ; which is apparent to any man that has eyes , even without the help of a Perspective . As seldome as Perspectives are used to discern the turns of Labyrinths , nothing is so apparent , as that your eyes or your judgement were not very good when you used this expression . For I pray , what crook or turn is there in that , when a Lady demanded an Infallible Church to her guide , to say , that by that question she supposeth some particular Church as distinct from , and opposite to others , to be infallible . No , say you , she sought not any one particular Church infallible , in opposition to another Church not infallible ; but some Church , such as might without danger of errour direct her in all doctrinal points of Faith. Rarely well distinguish'd ! Not any particular Church , but some particular Church . For if she enquired after some Church , which , without danger of errour , might direct her in all doctrinal points of Faith , doth she not thereby imply , that some other Church might bring her into danger of errour under pretence of directing her in matters of Faith ? and if this be some particular fallible Church , the other must be some particular infallible Church ? And is it possible to conceive some Church that may erre in directing , and some other that may not erre , without some particular Church being taken in opposition to some other Church ? But you would fain perswade us that the force of his Lordships Argument rests wholly upon the importance of the particle a or an , which cannot be applyed but to particulars , which you very learnedly disprove : whereas the main strength of what his Lordship says , depends upon the nature of the question , and the manner of proposing it . For the Lady enquiring after such a Church whose judgement she might relye on as to the matters in dispute in the Christian world , must mean such a Church whose communion must be known as distinct from other Churches which are not infallible ; for otherwise she might be deceived still . And if you give a pertinent answer to her question , you must shew her some such Church as an Infallible Guide , which can be no other in this case , but some particular Church considered as distinct from others . For a general answer concerning the Infallibility of the Catholick Church , without shewing how the Infallible judgement of that Church may be known , can by no means reach the case in hand : which doth not meerly respect an Infallibility in the subject , but such an infallibility as may be a sufficient guide in all doctrinal points of Faith. When you say therefore , she meant no other then the Vniversal visible Church of Christ , you must tell us how the Vniversal visible Church can become such an Infallible guide in the matters in Controversie between those Churches , which yet are members of that Vniversal visible Church . For the notion of the Vniversal Church not being in its nature confined to any one of these parties , but all of them concurring to the making of it up , can no more be an Infallible guide in the matters in difference , then the common notion of Animal can direct us in judging what Beings are sensitive and what rational . Therefore though you would fain deceive the world under a pretence of the Catholick Church , yet nothing can be more evident , then that in the question what Church must be a guide in Doctrinal points of Faith , it must be understood of some Church as distinct from other Churches which ought not to be relyed on as infallible guides . But the subtilty of this is , that when you challenge Infallibility to your Church , we should not apprehend her as a particular Church , but as the true Catholick Church , which is a thing so every way absurd and unreasonable , that you had need use the greatest Artifice's to disguise it , which yet can deceive none but such as are resolved to be deceived by them . For any one who had his eyes in his head might discern without a Perspective , as you speak , that Churches of several and distinct Communions from each other were placed in competition for Infallibility : For Mr. Fisher's next words are . The Question was , Which was that Church ? Do you think he means , Which was that Vniversal visible Church ? Certainly not : for the nature of the Question supposes several Churches : now I think you do not believe , there are several Vniversal visible Churches . And it immediately follows , A Friend of the Ladies would needs defend that not only the Roman , but the Greek Church was right ; to which Mr. Fisher answers , That the Greek Church had erred in matter of doctrine . Can any thing be more plain then that this Question doth relate to Churches considered severally and as under distinct Communions and Denominations . And therefore notwithstanding your pittiful pretences to the contrary , this Question can be no otherwise understood then , as his Lordship said , of some particular Infallible Church , in opposition to some other particular Church which is not Infallible . And if you judge this an affected mistake as you call it , your discerning faculty will be as lyable to Question as your Churches Infallibility . That you might seem to avoid the better the force of his Lordships following discourse against Bellarmine about the Infallibility of the particular Church of Rome ; you first tell us , That it is sufficient for a Catholick to believe that there is an Infallibility in the Church , without further obligation to examine whether the particular Church of Rome be infallible or no. Which is an egregious piece of Sophistry . For , put case a man believes the Catholick Church of all Ages Infallible , but not of any one particular Age since the Apostles times ; suppose a man believe the Catholick Church of the present Age Infallible , but not of any one particular Communion but as it takes in those common truths wherein they are all agreed ; will you say this is sufficient for a Catholick to believe without obligation to examine further ? If you will , speak it out , and , I dare say , you shall not have much thanks at Rome when you have done it . But the mysterie is , If a man believes the Roman Church only , to be the Catholick Church , it is no matter whether he enquires whether the Catholick Church be only at Rome or no. It is not the place , but the communion of the Roman Church which is now enquired after in the question of Infallibility ; although I cannot see but those places out of the Fathers which are produced to prove the Roman Church Infallible , will hold for the continuance of that Infallibility in that particular place of Rome . For St. Cyprian saith expresly of the Romans , that they are such to whom Perfidia ( what ever be meant by it ) cannot have access . St. Jerome saith , The Roman Faith admits no deceits into it . Gregory Nazianzene , that Rome retains the ancient Faith. Not that I think any of these places do in the least import the Infallibility of the Roman Church ( as will be shewed in its proper place ) but that , on supposition that Infallibility were implyed in them , they would hold for the Infallibility of the particular Roman Church . And therefore Bellarmin understood what he did when he produced these places to that purpose , especially the Apostolical See remaining at Rome , as he supposeth himself in this part of the Question which he there discusseth . Either therefore you must assert that which his Lordship learnedly proves , viz. That no such thing as Infallibility is intended by any of these Citations , or else that it must extend to the particular Roman Church . And when you deny this to be an Article of Faith among Catholicks , that the particular Roman Church ( the Apostolical See remaining there ) is Infallible , prove at your leasure from any of these Citations that the Church within the Roman Communion is Infallible and not the particular Roman Church . And from what hath been hitherto said , I am so far from suspecting his Lordships candor , as you do , that I much rather suspect your judgement , and that you are not much used to attend to the Consequences of things , or else you would not have deserted Bellarmin in defence of so necessary and pertinent a point as the Infallibility of the particular Church of Rome . Secondly , You answer to his Lordships Discourse concerning Bellarmin's Authorities , That you cannot hold your self obliged to take notice of his pretended Solutions , till you find them brought to evacuate the Infallibility of the Catholick or the Roman Church in its full latitude , as Catholicks ever mean it , save when they say the particular Church of Rome . But taking it in as full a Latitude as you please , I doubt not but to make it appear that the Roman Church is the Roman Church still , that is , a particular Church as distinct from the Communion of others , and therefore neither Catholick nor Infallible : which I must refer to the place where you insist upon it , which I shall do without the imitation of your Vanity , in telling your Reader as far as eighthly and lastly what fine exploits you intend to do there . But usually those who brag most of their Valour before-hand shew least in the Combat , and thus it will be found with you . I shall let you therefore enjoy your self in the pleasant thoughts of your noble intendments , till we come to the tryal of them ; and so come to the present Controversie concerning the Greek Church . The Defence of the Greek Church . It is none of the least of those Arts which you make use of for the perplexing the Christian Faith , to put men upon enquiring after an Infallible Church , when yet you have no way to discern which is so much as a true Church , but by examining the doctrine of it . So that of necessity the rule of Faith and Doctrine must be certainly known , before ever any one can with safety depend upon the judgement of any Church . For having already proved that there can be no other meaning of the Question concerning the Church , as here stated , but with relation to some particular Church to whose Communion the party enquiring might joyn , and whose judgement might be relyed on ; we see it presently follows in the debate , Which was that Church ; and it seems , as is said already , a Friend of the Ladies undertook to defend that the Greek Church was right . To which Mr. Fisher answers , That the Greek Church had plainly changed , and taught false in a point of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost : and after repeats it , that it had erred . Before I come to examine how you make good the charge you draw up against the poor Greek Church in making it erre fundamentally , it is worth our while to consider upon what account this dispute comes in . The Inquiry was concerning the True Church on whose judgement one might safely depend in Religion . It seems , two were propounded to consideration , the Greek and the Roman ; the Greek was rejected because it had erred : From whence it follows , that the dispute concerning the Truth of Doctrine must necessarily precede that of the Church : For by Mr. Fishers confession and your own , A Church which hath erred cannot be relyed on ; therefore men must be satisfied whether a Church hath erred or no , before they can judge whether she may be relyed on or no. Which being granted , all the whole Fabrick of your Book falls to the ground ; for then 1. Men must be Infallibly certain of the grounds of Faith antecedently to the testimony of the Church ; for if they be to judge of a Church by the Doctrine , they must in order to such a judgement be certain what that Doctrine is which they must judge of the Church by . 2. No Church can be known to be Infallible , unless it appear to be so by that Doctrine which they are to examine the truth of the Church by , and therefore no Church can be known to be Infallible by the motives of credibility . 3. No Church ought to be relyed on as Infallible , which may be found guilty of any errour by comparing it with the Doctrine which we are to try it by . Therefore you must first prove your Church not to have erred in any particular ; for if she hath , it is impossible she should be Infallible : and not think to prove that she hath not erred because she cannot , that being the thing in question , and must by your dealing with the Greek Church be judged by particulars . 4. There must be a certain rule of Faith supposed to have sufficient Authority to decide Controversies without any dependence upon the Church . For , the matter to be judged is the Church ; and if the Scripture may and must decide that , Why may it not as well all the rest ? 5. Every mans reason proceeding according to this rule of Faith must be left his Judge in matters of Religion . And whatever inconveniencies you can imagine to attend upon this they immediately and necessarily follow from your proceeding with the Greek Church by excluding her because she hath erred , which while we are in pursuit of a Church can be determined by nothing but every ones particular reason . 6. Then Fundamentals do not depend upon the Churches declaration . For you assert the Greek Church to erre fundamentally , and that this may be made appear to one who is seeking after a Church . Suppose then I inquire , as the Lady did , after a Church whose judgement I must absolutely depend on , and some mention the Greek and others the Roman Church : You tell me , It cannot be the Greek , for that hath erred fundamentally . I inquire how you know , supposing her to erre , that it is a fundamental errour ? will you answer me , because the true Church hath declared it to be a fundamental errour ? but that was it I was seeking for Which that Church is , which may declare what errours are fundamental and what not ? If you tell me It is yours , I may soon tell you , You seem to have a greater kindness for your Church then your self , and venture to speak any thing for the sake of it . Thus we see how finely you have betrayed your whole Cause in your first onset , by so rude an attempt upon the Greek Church . And truly it was much your concernment , to load her as much as you can : For though she now wants one of the great marks of your Church ( which yet you know not how long your Church may enjoy ) viz. outward splendor and bravery , yet you cannot deny , but that Church was planted by the Apostles , enjoyed a continual Succession from them , flourished with a number of the Fathers exceeding that of yours , had more of the Councils of greatest credit in it , and , which is a commendation still to it , it retains more purity under its persecutions then your Church with all its external splendour . But she hath erred concerning the Holy Ghost , and therefore hath lost it . A severe censure which his Lordship rebukes Mr. Fisher for citing King James so boldly for : but two wayes it may be taken , he adds . 1. To lose such assistance as preserves from all errour . 2. Or else from all fundamental errour , this therefore , his Lordship truely saith , is an errour of the first sort and not of the latter . Passing by therefore his Lordships expressions of his modesty , which if an errour is one you are like to be secured from ; and his cautious expressions concerning the Greek Church which he highly shewed his wisdome in , we come to consider how you prove the Greek Church guilty of fundamental errour . You say , You pass by his trifling , and make way for truth . I wonder not to see you reflect on his Lordship for his modesty , considering how little of it you shew towards him ; let us then make way too , but it is to see you and Truth combat together . It is to be considered , say you , that now for many hundred years , the whole Latine Church hath decreed and believed it to be flat Heresie in the Greeks ; and they decreed the contrary to be an Heresie in the Latin Church , and both together condemned the opinion of the Grecians as Heretical in a General Council ( in Florentino ) how then bears it any shew of probability , what some few of yesterday ( forced to it by an impossibility of otherwise avoiding the strength of Catholick arguments against them ) affirm , that the matter of this Controversie was so small and inconsiderable , that it is not sufficient to produce an Heresie on either side ? Is not this to make all the Churches of Christendome for many hundred years quite blind , and themselves only clear and sharp-sighted ? which swelling presumption what spirit it argues , and whence it proceeds , all those who have learn'd from St. Augustin that Pride is the mother of Heresie , will easily collect . I grant this speech of St. Augustin to be true ; only let it be added , that Pride is likewise the Mother of making Heresies , as will appear in this present Controversie ; and whether we , who vindicate the Greek Church from Heresie , or you who would find the Bill against her ( to keep her from any rivalship with your Church ) be more guilty of Pride will be soon discovered ; but sure you believe us not only to be men of yesterday , but to know nothing who should sentence the Greek Church for Heresie upon such feeble pretences as these are . I know not what presumption that can be to say , Men may be too forward on both sides in calling each other Hereticks , and it may be not so much their Blindness , as Pride and Passion which may make them do it . But if they will condemn that for Heresie , which is not so made appear to be upon any evidence from Scripture and Reason , they were not so blind in defining it , as we should be in following their judgement without further examination . But this was for many hundred years . The more to blame they , for continuing in so rash judgements so long , if it appear so . But it is well still you tell us , that as the Latin Church condemned the Greek for Heresie , the Greek condemned the Latin for it too . And so by your own rule the one was as blind as the other . But the Latin Church had the right to determine Heresie , and the Greek had not . This is the question , Which Church must be relyed on for judgement ? and if they mutually condemn each other , we must have a higher rule to judge of both by . But still , Is it not an Argument , that it is a Heresie of one side or the other , because each party condemns the other of Heresie ? Just as much , as if two men fall out and call each other Knaves , it must be granted , that if both be not , yet at least the one of them is so . Heresie being grown the scolding word in Religion ; and no two parties can differ , but they seek to fasten this reproach on each other . If one should bring greater evidence than the other of his Knavery , he ought to be more accounted so . No otherwise can it be here ; if sufficient proof be brought of Heresie on the one side and not the other , that party may be looked on as more guilty : but still remembring , that the more confident affirmation , the pretence to greater honesty and power , be not taken for the only evidences of it : As I doubt it will appear in our present case . But still suppose , that of two men who have so reproached each other , the one of them being fallen into distress and poverty , and not hoping for relief but from the other person , and he denying it , unless he be content by joynt-consent to be proclaimed Knave , which he through his necessity yeilding to , but assoon as that is over declaring on what account they agreed ; Must this man be more pittied for his Necessity , or condemned for his Knavery ? Just such I shall make it appear , that which you call condemning the Grecians as Heretical in a General Council at Florence , to have been and no otherwise . But I come to a closer examination of this Subject to see with what Justice you charge the Greek Church , either with Heresie or Schism ; For both these you accuse it of in this Chapter . Two things were the most in dispute between the Greek and Latin Churches , the one was the Doctrine of the Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son , the other was concerning the addition of the Filióque to the Creed . And although the Greeks in the debates at Ferrara would not meddle with the Doctrine , before the Latins could clear themselves concerning the addition , which they said was the main cause of the Contest between them ; yet I am content to follow your method and handle the other first . Your discourse concerning the first consists of two parts , Proofs and Answers ; Proofs of their Heresie , and Answers to his Lordships Arguments against it . The Proofs are double , the one from Authority , the other from Theological reason . Through every of these particulars I shall follow you , and from them I doubt not to evince , that the Greeks are not guilty of the faults you lay to their charge . We have already seen what your Proofs from Authority are ; their condemning one another for Hereticks , and the Greeks being condemned by a General Council . If I can therefore prove that the Greeks opinion was not accounted an Heresie before the Council of Florence , and that it did not become a Heresie by the Council of Florence , I shall sufficiently discover the weakness of your Arguments from authority . 1. That it was not accounted a Heresie before the Council of Florence ; I mean not , that there were no hot-brain'd persons in all the time of the difference , who did not brand the Greek Church with Heresie , but that it was never accounted a Heresie , by any of those whom your selves account the only competent Judges of Heresie ; and those are either the Fathers , or Popes , or Councils : which I prove in their order . 1. That it was not accounted Heresie by the Fathers ; which will be proved by these two things . 1. Because it is very doubtful whether many of the Fathers did believe the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son or no. 2. Because those who did believe it , did not condemn those of Heresie who did not . 1. That it is very doubtful whether many of them did believe the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son or no ; at least , so far as to make it an Article of Faith ; for 1. There are clear testimonies that they make it unnecessary to be believed . 2. The testimonies which seem to say , That they did believe it , do not necessarily imply that they did . 1. That there are clear testimonies , that they did not account it a thing necessary to be believed : both because they in terms asserted the nature of this procession to be incomprehensible , and withall , did as clearly affirm the belief of that , which doth not imply this procession to be sufficient for salvation . 1. They in terms assert , that the mystery of this Procession is incomprehensible . And can you , or any reasonable man , imagine they should make the manner of that Procession to be an article of Faith , which they acknowledge to be absolutely beyond our apprehension ? I grant , Something supposed by them to be incomprehensible is made an article of Faith : but then it is not that which is supposed as incomprehensible under that notion , which is made so ; but the thing it self which may be incomprehensible ; yet being clearly revealed in Scripture , ought to be believed , notwithstanding that incomprehensibility of it : As the mystery of the Trinity it self , the Eternal Generation of the Son , the Procession of the Spirit from the Father , &c. But then I say , these things are such , as are either declared by them to be expresly revealed in Scripture , or necessarily consequent from something supposed to be so . As for instance , supposing the Trinity in Vnity to be something divinely revealed , whatever is necessarily consequent from that , and is necessary to be believed in order to that , though it be incomprehensible , must be believed ; as , Supposing these two things clear from Scripture , that there is but one true God , and that there are three Persons , who have the Name , Properties , and Attributes of God given to them , though our reason be too short to fathom the manner how these can have three distinct Subsistences , and yet but one Essence , because our reason ( i. e. all those conceptions which we have formed in our mind from the observation of things ) doth tell us , that Those things which agree or disagree in a third , agree or disagree one with another ; and from thence it would inferr , that , if the Father be God , and the Son God , there could be no difference between Father and Son ; yet this being meerly as to the connexion of two propositions , both of which are supposed distinctly revealed in Scripture ; we are bound in this case to believe such a Connexion , because both parts are equally revealed by an Infallible Testimony , though the Mode of that Connexion be to us Incomprehensible : But it is not so , where neither clear Revelation , nor a necessary Consequent from something which is divinely revealed doth inforce our belief of it . As in our present case : Since we suppose it revealed in Scripture , that Father , Son , and Holy Ghost are God , whatever is necessary to the belief of that , though incomprehensible , we ought to believe it : but if there be something without which I may believe the Deity of the Father , Son and Spirit , and this not clearly asserted in Scripture , but is a thing in it self incomprehensible , that cannot be made a necessary article of Faith : Thus that the Spirit doth proceed from the Father seems necessary on both accounts , as consequent upon the belief of the Trinity in Vnity , and as clearly expressed in Scripture : but that the Spirit should proceed from Father and Son as from one principle , that they should communicate in an action proper to their Subsistences , and yet be distinguished from each other in those Subsistences , and agree only in Essence , ( and if the Spirit proceeds not from their Subsistences , but from the Essence , the Spirit must proceed from it self , because that is common to all three ; ) these things being in themselves incomprehensible , and not necessary to the belief of the Divinity either of Son or Holy Ghost , nor pretended to be clearly revealed in Scripture , cannot be said to make a necessary article of Faith , the denyal of which must suppose Heresie . And therefore that which is the only Objection in this case , is removed , viz. that this Procession of the Spirit from the Father is incomprehensible , and yet supposed to be an article of Faith ; for that I have already shewed is expresly revealed in Scripture , that the Spirit doth proceed from the Father . But neither is the procession from the Son necessary to the belief of the Deity of the Son ; for if it were , it would be as necessary to the Deity of the Holy Ghost that the Son should be begotten by the Spirit ; neither doth it follow from any place of Scripture , for all those places which are usually brought are very capable of such interpretations , as do not at all infer it ; from hence then it follows , that those who upon these terms acknowledge this Procession incomprehensible , do therein imply that the belief of it is no article necessary to salvation , and therefore the denyal no Heresie . Now for this we have the clearest testimonies of such who were the greatest and most zealous assertors of the Doctrine of the Trinity . Athanasius saith expresly , That it is sufficient to know , that the Spirit is no creature , nor to be reckoned among Gods works ; for nothing of another nature is mingled with the Trinity , but it is undivided , and like it self : These things are sufficient for believers . But , saith he , when we come hither , the Cherubims vail their faces ; but he that inquires and searches into more than these , neglects him that hath said , Be not wise overmuch , &c. If it be sufficient to know , that the Spirit is no creature , it cannot be necessary to believe , that the Spirit proceeds from the Son : for they who do not believe that , do firmly believe the Deity of it . And if whatever goes beyond that , goes beyond the bounds which God hath set us , then certainly he never dreamt that men should be condemned for Heresie as to some things which cannot be supposed to be within them . To the same purpose speaks St. Basil in several places , acknowledging the Procession of the Holy Ghost to be a thing inexplicable , and when the Hereticks enquired of him What kind of thing that Procession was , when the Spirit was neither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all the answer he gives them , is , If there be such multitudes of things in the world which we are ignorant of , what shame is it to confess our ignorance here ? And if it be here our duty to confess our ignorance , it is far from it to be Magisterial and definitive , that unless men acknowledge every punctilio , they are guilty of Heresie and fundamental Errors . St. Gregory Nazianzene mentioning that Question , What this Procession is ? returns this Answer , Tell me first what it is for the Father to be unbegotten , and I will explain the Generation of the Son , and Procession of the Holy Ghost ; that we may both therein shew our folly , who pry into these Divine mysteries and do not know the things which are before our feet . And elsewhere , If we enquire into these things , what shall we leave to them , whom the Scripture tells us alone know and are known of each other . St. Cyrill requires of men , To believe his Being , and subsistence , and dominion over all ; but for other things not to suffer the mind to go beyond the bounds allotted to humane nature . These spoke like wise men , and the true Fathers of the Church , who would have men content themselves with believing meerly what was necessary in these deep and incomprehensible mysteries , and not to make Articles of Faith of such things which are not made necessary , either by deduction of Reason , or clear Divine Revelation . Although therefore I should grant , that some or all of these , did themselves believe this Procession from the Son , yet hereby it appears they were far from imposing it upon others , or making it a Heresie in any not to believe it . They saw well these were not things to be narrowly searched into , but as the Philosopher said of some kind of Hellebore , taken in the lump it is Medicinal , but beaten into powder is dangerous , is true of these more abstruse mysteries of Religion ; for whosoever will endeavour to satisfie himself concerning them from the strange niceties and subtilties of the Schools , may return with greater doubts then he went to them . For not to go beyond our present Subject , whosoever would examine the way they take to make the Procession to be immediate from the Father and the Son , so as to be from one principle , to shew how the Spirit comes from both by the same numerical spiration ; but most of all , when they come to make distinctions between the Generation of the Son , and the Procession of the Holy Ghost , ( of which no less then nine are recounted and rejected by Petavius out of the Fathers and Schoolmen , and the last which he rests in , which is the common one of the Schools , viz. That the one is per modum Intellectûs , and the other per modum Amoris , as unsatisfactory as any , there being so vast a disproportion between the most immediate acts of our souls and these emanations ) will see much greater reason to commend the Wisdome of those Fathers , who sought to repress mens curiosity as to these things , and as much to condemn you , who are so apt to charge whole Churches with Heresie , if they come not up to every thing which you shall pronounce to be an Article of Faith. 2. It is plain from the Fathers , That they made the belief of that to be sufficient for salvation , which doth not imply this Procession from the Son ; which is , that the Holy Ghost doth proceed from the Father : If therefore they often mention the Procession from the Father , without taking notice of the Procession from the Son , and when they do so , assert the sufficiency of the belief of that for Salvation ; there cannot be the least ground to imagine that they looked on the Procession from the Son as a necessary Article of Faith. We see before , Athanasius made no more necessary , then the belief of the Divinity of the Holy Ghost ; and in the same discourse , where he speaks expresly what the Orthodox opinion was of the Holy Ghost , he says no more , but , If they thought well of the Word , they would likewise of the Spirit , which proceeds from the Father , and is proper to the Son , and is given by him to the Disciples , and all that believe on him . In which words there is nothing but what the Greeks to this day do most freely and heartily acknowledge , viz. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father , and is the Spirit of the Son , being given by him to all that believe . Many other Testimonies are produced out of him and the rest of the Greek Fathers , by the Patriarch Hieremias in his Answer to the Wirtenberg Divines , by Marcus Ephesius in his Disputes in the Council of Florence , by Gregorius Palamas in his Answer to Beccus the Latinizing Patriarch of Constantinople in the time of Michael Palaeologus , and other modern Defendants of the Greek Church . But although I do not think , that the places produced by them are sufficient for their purpose , viz. That those Fathers believed the Procession from the Father , exclusivè , to be an Article of Faith ; yet whosoever will take the pains to compare those Testimonies with the others produced on the other side by those who writ in defence of the Filioque , either Latins , as Hugo Eterianus , Anselme , &c. or Latinizing Greeks , such as Nicephorus Blemmydes , Beccus , Emanuel Calecas and others , will find it most for the honour of the Fathers , and most consonant to Truth , to assert that they did not look upon this as any necessary Article of Faith , and therefore took liberty to express themselves differently about it as they saw occasion . For such different Testimonies are produced not only of different Fathers , but of several places of the same , that it will be a hard matter but upon this ground to reconcile them to each other and themselves : And that which abundantly confirms it , is , That when they sate most solemnly in Council to determine the matters of Faith about the Trinity , they were so far from inserting this , when they had just occasion to do it , that they only mention the Proceeding from the Father , and determine this to be a perfect Symbol of Christian Faith which contained no more . In the first Nicene Creed , and that which is properly so called , ( for that which now goes under that Name is the Constantinopolitan Creed ) there was nothing at all determined concerning the Procession of the Holy Ghost ; and yet Athanasius saith expresly of the Faith there delivered by the Fathers according to the Scriptures , That it was of it self sufficient for the turning men from all impiety , and the establishment of all Christian Piety . And afterwards saith , That though certain men contended much for some additions to be made to it , yet the Sardican Synod would by no means consent to it , because the Nicene Creed was not defective , but sufficient for Piety , and therefore forbid the making any new Creed , lest the former should be accounted defective . We see then by the Testimony of Athanasius and the Sardican Synod , ( which when it serves your turn , as in the case of Appeals you extoll so much , and in defence of Zozimus his forgery of the Nicene Canons you would have confounded with the Nicene ) that the Nicene Creed without any thing at all concerning the Procession of the Holy Ghost was looked on as sufficient to Salvation , and therefore certainly they did not then judge this Article of the Procession to be so necessary as you would have it be . But suppose we yeild Nazianzene , and the Fathers of the Constantinopolitan Council , that though this Creed was not defective as to the Son , yet there ought to be somewhat added further concerning the Holy Ghost , upon the rising of Macedonius : yet even here we shall find when they purposely added to the Article of the Holy Ghost , they added only this touching the Procession 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which proceedeth from the Father . And thus the Copies of the Constantinopolitan Creed , either in the Councils or elsewhere have it , where they mention the Procession at all ; And when Marcus Ephesius in the Florentine Council read this Creed , the Latins took no exceptions at all to it , but it passed then as it doth still for the Nicene Creed ( although it much differs from the Original Nicene ) , and therefore it is a great Mistake of them who imagine the Article of Filioque was found in some Copies of this Creed , for this the Latins never pretended in the Florentine Council , ( but did indeed as to the Creed of the second Council of Nice , but were therein much suspected of forgery by the Greeks ) which might be the ground of that mistake . But that which I insist on is , If this Article of the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son had been by these Fathers judged necessary , when had there been a fitter time to insert it , then now , when purposely they added the Procession to the former Creed ? And yet we see they did not judge it at all necessary to be inserted . It may be you will say , it was , Because the Controversie was not then started concerning the Filioque ; But that can signifie nothing here , because we have already shewed that the Fathers themselves spake differently concerning it , and looked upon it as a thing not necessary to be known ; but the things which were upon the rising of Hereticks inserted into the Creed , were such as by the Fathers were judged and believed as necessary before ever those Hereticks arose ; as in the Case here of Macedonius , for I hope you will not say it was no Heresie to deny the Divinity of the Holy Ghost till it was determined in this Oecumenical Council ? For the Fathers never thought that they made Articles of Faith in Councils , but only declared themselves and what they believed against the Hereticks which did arise in the Church : And therefore that Answer of the Filioque not being then controverted comes to nothing . From hence we come to the third Oecumenical Council , to see if that adds any thing concerning this Procession ; instead of which it highly confirms what was established before ; for the Fathers of that Council discerning at last the great inconveniency of making such additions to the Creed , because the Nestorians had got the art of it too , and made a new Creed of their own , ( which by Charisius was brought to the Council and there read ) upon which the Ephesine Fathers make an irrevocable decree against all additions being made hereafter to the Creed . For after they had caused the Nicene , or rather the Constantinopolitan Creed to be publickly read ( in which yet the Article of Procession was left out , as appears by that Copy which Marcus Ephesius produced at the Council of Ferrara , as it is likewise in the Copies of the Ephesine Council ) upon which they pass this definitive Sentence ; That it should not be lawful hereafter for any one to produce , write , or compose any other Creed , besides that which was agreed on and defined by the Holy Fathers , who were met together at Nice by the Holy Spirit . Concerning the meaning of this Decree , we shall fully enquire when we come to the addition of the Filioque . That which I take notice of it now for , is , not only the further ratification of what was in the Creed before , and that what was therein contained was as much as was judged necessary , but an express Decree made against all after-additions ; which doth , as fully as a General Council could do , declare that nothing else was necessary to be believed , but what was already inserted in the Creed : or else , To what end did they prohibit any further additions ? To the like purpose , the fourth General Council of Chalcedon determins , That by no means they would suffer that Faith to be moved which was already defined . I might proceed to the fifth and sixth Councils , but these are sufficient . Let me now put some few Questions to you , Are General Councils Infallible , or no ? Yes , say you , if confirmed by the Pope . Were not these four first Councils confirmed ? Yes , it is evident they were . Were they then Infallible in all their Decrees or no , especially concerning matters of Faith ? If they were , were they not Infallible in this Determination , That it should not be lawful to add to the Creed any thing else but what was in before ? were they Infallible in declaring the received Creed to be full and sufficient ? If they were so , how comes any Article to become necessary , which was not then in the Creed ? If you say , The Pope and another General Council have power Infallibly to contradict these , and to say that somewhat else is necessary to be inserted into the Creed , and to be believed in order to Salvation ; I must content my self with having brought you to the humble confession , that both parts of a Contradiction may be Infallibly determined . Thus we see that the Fathers , whether single or joyned , in such Councils which are of the greatest Authority in the Christian world , have been so far from believing or determining this Article of the Procession of the Holy Ghost to be necessary , ( which must be , if the denyal of it be a fundamental error ) that they have plainly enough expressed and determined the contrary . 2. The next thing we come to , is , That those Testimonies which are produced out of the Fathers , are so far from asserting the necessity of this Article , that the most of them do not evidently prove that they believed it . For these two Answers the Greeks return to them . 1. That they do not assert the Procession of the Spirit from the Son , but the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Son. 2. That those which speak of a Procession do not mean it of an Eternal Procession , but a Temporal , which is the same with the Spirits Mission . 1. That they do not assert the Eternal Procession of the Spirit from the Son , but the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Son. And therefore no more can be inferred from them , but only the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Greeks constantly acknowledge . This they make probable by two things : 1. That , when the Fathers dispute not with those who denyed the consubstantiality of Son and Spirit , they use not the particle ex , but only say that the Spirit is the Spirit of the Son. So Cyril expresly , when Theodoret had denyed the Procession from the Son , he gives no other Answer , but this , The Holy Spirit doth truly proceed from God and the Father , according to our Saviours words , but is not of another nature from the Son. We see he contents himself with the acknowledgement that the Spirit is of the same nature with the Son : To the same purpose is another testimony of his produced by the Patriarch Hieremias ; speaking of the Spirit whereby the Apostles spake , he saies , Which proceeded in an ineffable manner from the Father , but is not different from the Son in regard of his essence . Several other testimonies are there produced by him , and elsewhere by others which need not be here recited . 2. That when they use the particle ex , it is against those who denyed the Consubstantiality both of the Son and Spirit ; and therefore Gregorius Palamas lay's down this Rule , That , as often as the praepositions , ex and per , have the same force in Divinity ; they do not denote any division or difference in the Trinity , but only their conjunction and inseparable union , and consent of their wills . For which , he cites the famous Epistle of Maximus to Marinus which was made the foundation of the Vnion at the Council of Florence , who therein saith , that when the Latins said in their Synodical Epistle , sent to Constantinople , that the Spirit did proceed ex filio , they meant no more than to shew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the perfect and inseparable Vnion of the Divine Essence . So when S. Basil saith , that the Father did create the world , per filium ; he adds , that notes no more than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the conjunction of their Wills. And by this means the Greeks interpret all those passages of the Fathers , which seem most express for the Spirit 's proceeding ex filio . So Marcus Ephesius tells the Latins in the Florentine Council , that when we say , Man comes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from the Essence of a man , therein is not implyed , that the Essence of man is the productive cause of man , but only it notes the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that Communion of Essence which is in men ; so , when the Greek Fathers speak of the Spirit 's proceeding ex filio , that doth not imply that the Son is the Principle of Spiration , but that there is a Communion of Essence between the Son and the Spirit . So , when Athanasius disputing against the Arrians ( saith the Patriarch Hieremias ) saith , that the Spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the Son , is given to all ; and that the Father 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by the Son , in the Spirit , doth create , work , and give all things ; you must consider , that Athanasius was then disputing against the Arrians , who made both Son and Spirit to be creatures : that therefore he might shew that the Spirit was of the same Substance with the Father and the Son ; he therefore useth that preposition ex , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 very opportunely and conveniently . Therefore , saith he , It is to be observed , that he never useth this but in opposition to the Arrians , and such who denyed the Divinity of the Holy Ghost ? To which purpose it is well observed by Spalatensis , that when the Fathers of the Constantinopolitan Council did insert into their Creed the article of the Spirit 's Procession from the Father ; they did it not with a purpose to define any thing concerning the Procession as an article of Faith , but that they might from those words of S. John inferr the Divinity of the Holy Ghost , because it proceeds from the Father : And withall , it is further observable , that in the Creed , which Charisius delivered into , and was accepted by , the Council of Ephesus , all that he sayes as to the Holy Ghost , is , And in the Spirit of Truth , the Paraclete who is consubstantial with the Father and the Son. By which , that which Spalatensis saith is much confirmed ; for this Symbol of Charisius was accepted by the Council as agreeable to the Nicene Creed . Thus we see , how probable this Answer of the Greeks is , That the intention of the Fathers in those expressions is only to assert the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Father and the Son , because when they used them it was in their disputes with them who denyed it . And therefore Petavius spends his pains to very little purpose , when going about to take off this answer of the Greeks , he only shews that those expressions in themselves cannot be confined meerly to the signification of the Consubstantiality of the persons , whereas the main force of this answer ly's in the intention and scope of the persons who used them , and the adversaries they disputed against , and not in the importance of the Articles themselves . 2. The second answer of the Greeks , is , that most of those places which speak of the procession of the Spirit from the Son , are not to be understood of the Eternal Procession , but of the Temporal , which is the same with the Spirits Mission . This , as the rest of the Greeks , so the Patriarchs Hieremias and Cyril especially insist upon ; the first in his last answer to the Divines of Wirtenberg . For when they in their reply to his second answer , had produced several testimonies of Athanasius , Cyril , Epiphanius , Basil , and Nazianzen , in behalf of the Spirit 's Procession from the Son ; he wonders at them , that leaving the plain and clear places both of Scriptures and Fathers , which do ( as he saith ) so openly proclaim the Spirit 's Procession from the Father only , they should hope for relief from other obscure places , which are capable of a different interpretation . As from the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which only relates to the Spirit 's manifestation , and is quite different from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so cannot imply his Eternal Procession . Therefore for the clearing the controversie , and giving account of the mistakes in it , he begins with the signification of the Spirit , which when it is applyed to the Divine Spirit , is capable of different significations being taken either for the several gifts of the Spirit , or for the person of the Spirit ; and so , though the word Procession be taken in a peculiar manner for the Eternal Procession of the Spirit , yet it is not only some times attributed to the bestowing the forementioned gifts , but likewise to the Eternal Generation of the Son ; and therefore whenever they meet with the word Procession attributed to the Spirit with a respect to the Son , they must not presently infer the Eternal Procession , but the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there signifies no more than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. that the Spirit doth come through , is sent , and given by the Son , which the Fathers often mention , the better thereby to assert 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Identity of nature and essence , which is in the Spirit with the Father and Son. This he doth therein very largely explain , and endeavour to make it out , that this is the most proper interpretation both of Scripture and Fathers , when they seem most clearly to speak of the Procession of the Spirit from the Son , The same likewise the Patriarch Cyril insists upon , who acknowledgeth these several words to be attributed to the Spirit in reference to the Son 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and several others in the writings of the Fathers , all which he acknowledgeth to be true , but he denyes that any of them do import a Hypostatical Procession of the Spirit from the Son , but that they all refer to the temporal mission and manifestation of the Spirit through Christ , under the Gospel . Whether this answer will reach to all the places produced out of the Fathers , is not here my business to enquire , only that which is pertinent to my purpose may be sufficiently inferred from hence , that the Fathers certainly were not definitive in this Controversie , when their expressest sentences seem capable of quite a different meaning to wise and learned men , who , one would think , if the belief of this Procession had been a tradition of their Church , or fully expressed in the Writings of the Fathers of the Greek Church , could not be so ignorant or wilful as either not to see this to have been their meaning , or supposing they had seen it to persist in so obstinate a belief of the contrary . I can therefore with advantage return your words back again to you . It is to be considered , that for many hundred years the whole Greek Church never believed this to be an article of Faith ; nay the Fathers were so far from it , that both single and in General Councils they did plainly express the contrary ; how then bears it any shew of probability , what some few of yesterday ( forced to it by an impossibility of otherwise defending the Power and Infallibility of the Roman Church ) affirm , that the matter of this Controversie is so great and considerable , that it is sufficient to produce an Heresie on either side ? Is not this to make Fathers , and General Councils , and consequently all Christendom for many hundred years , quite blind , and themselves only clear and sharp-sighted ? Which swelling presumption , what spirit it argues , and whence it proceeds , all those who have learnt from reason , if not from S. Augustine , That Pride is the Mother of making Heresies in unnecessary articles of Faith , will easily collect . Do not you see now , how unadvisedly those words came from you , which with so small variation in the manner of expression , and much greater truth in the matter of it , is restored upon your self ? But I go on still , if possible , to make you sensible , how much you have wronged the Greek Church in this charge of a fundamental errour in her , for denying this Procession of the Spirit from the Son. Which shall be from hence that although there were some who did as plainly deny this as ever the Modern Greeks did or do , yet they were far from being condemned for Heresie in so doing . For which we must consider , that although the Fathers , as we have already seen , did speak ambiguously in this matter , yet the first who appears openly and stoutly to have denyed it , was Theodoret ; which , being the rise of the Controversie , must be more carefully enquired into . It appears then , that a General Council being summoned by the Emperour Theodosius to meet at Ephesus concerning the opinions of Nectorius which were vehemently opposed , by Cyril of Alexandria , and several Aegyptian and Asian Bishops , who being there convened , proceed to the deposition of Nestorius and Anathematizing his doctrine , before Johannes Antiochenus , and several other Bishops who favoured Nestorius , were come to Ephesus . When these therefore came and found what had been done by the other Bishops , they , being seconded by Candidianus there and the Court-party at Constantinople , assemble apart by themselves , and proceed on the other side to a deposition and excommunication of Cyril and Memnon , who were the leaders of all the rest ; and these make an Anti-Synod to the other , which consisted of persons of several interests and perswasions , some Pelagians , some Nestorians , and others , more as Friends to Nestorius than his opinions , as being his Ancient Familiars and acquaintance , did joyn with them to prevent his deposition ; among which , the chief were Johannes Antiochenus , and Theodoret. But , before the Council , Cyril had published his Anathema's against the opinions of Nestorius : to these therefore , not only the Oriental Bishops gave an answer , but John the Patriarch of Antioch particularly appoints Theodoret to refute them . The ninth Anathema of Cyril was against Nestorius , and all others who said , That Christ used the Holy Ghost as a distinct power from himself , for the working of miracles , and that did not acknowledge him to be the proper Spirit of Christ. Theodoret grants the first part , wherein he shews he was no Nestorian , but quarrels with the latter part ; for saith he , If by that he means that the Spirit is of the same nature with the Son , and that it proceeds from the Father , we acknowledge it together with him — but if by that he understands as though the Spirit had his subsistence from or by the Son , we reject it as blasphemous and impious . Was ever any thing in this kind spoken with greater heat and confidence than this was here by Theodoret ? And if this had been looked on as Heretical at that time , can we possibly imagine that so zealous an opposer of all Heresies , and especially of the Nestorians , as S. Cyril of Alexandria was , should so coolly and patiently pass this by as he doth ? For all the answer he gives , is only that which was before cited out of him ; that he acknowledgeth The Spirit doth proceed from the Father , but yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is not of another nature from the Son ; but did not Theodoret expresly assert that , as well as Cyril ? Is it then possible that any one who hath his wits about him , should imagine , that if that doctrine of Theodoret had been accounted Heretical , it being expressed in so vehement a manner as it is , it should have no other answer from Cyril , but only approving that which Theodoret confesseth , viz. the Consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Son. All the answer which Petavius and others give , is so weak and trifling , that one may easily see how much they were put to it to find out any : Sometimes it was because Cyril was intent upon his business , and therefore passed it by ; as though he were so weak a man as to let his adversary broach Heresie and say nothing to it , because it was not pertinent to the present cause . But if it were not , it is an argument the second Answer is false , viz. that Theodoret was herein a Nestorian ; for if he were so , it could not be besides the business , but was a main part of it . Moreover , if this were a piece of Nestorianism , it is very strange the Fathers of that Council , when they purposely collected the opinions of Nestorius out of his own Writings , should never make any mention at all of this , no not when they produce his opinion concerning the Spirit of God. Why was it not then condemned and Anathematized as one of his Heresies ? why did not the Oriental Bishops , when they subscribed to the deposition of Nestorius , and the election of Maximianus at Constantinople , and sent a Confession of their Faith to Cyril at Alexandria by Paulus Emesenus , mention this among the rest , of their agreement with the Orthodox Bishops ? Yet in that extant both in Cyril's works , and in the third part of the Council at Ephesus , there is not the least intimation of it . And therefore the learned Jesuit Sirmondus in the life of Theodoret prefixed by him to the first Tome of his works which he set forth , vindicates Theodoret from all suspition of Nestorianism , and imputes all the troubles which he fell into on that account to the violence of Dioscorus the successor of Cyril at Alexandria , who being a great Patron of the Eutychians thought to revenge himself on Theodoret by blasting his reputation as a Nestorian . There is not then any shew of probability that this opinion in Theodoret was condemned as a piece of Nestorianism , which certainly the whole Greek Church could not have been ignorant of , from that time to this . But though that piece of Theodoret against Anathema's were condemned in succeeding Councils , yet that might be for the defence of other things , which they judged bordered too near on Nestorianism , or because they would not have any monument remain of that discord between the Oriental Bishops , and the Ephesine Council ; which Theodosius doth so much and so heartily lament in his excellent Epistle to Johannes Antiochenus about a reconciliation between him and Cyril , after the banishment of Nestorius , and the choice of Maximianus . Thus we see one who in a divided and busie time ventured upon the absolute denyal of the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son not as a bare errour , but as impious and blasphemous , yet was far from being condemned for Heretical himself for saying so , by those Fathers , who were the most zealous defenders of the true Apostolical Faith. And if these things considered together , do not make it appear that the Fathers did not make the denyal of the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son to be a Heresie , I know not what can be made plain from them . But I know , whatever the Fathers say , you are of Cornelius Mussus his mind , who heartily professed , that he preferred the judgement of one Pope , before a thousand Augustines and Hieroms ; but what if the Popes should prove of the same mind with the Fathers , how then can this be accounted an Heresie ? And that they were exactly of the same mind , might be made appear by the several Epistles of Vigilius and Agatho in confirmation of the Faith established in the four first General Councils , in which it was determined , that all necessaries were already in the Creed , and that there needed no further additions to it , both which are produced and insisted on by the Greeks in the fifth Session at Ferrara . But I pass by them , and come to more particular testimonies of Popes , and that either in Councils , or upon a reference to them from Councils . The first time we read of this Controversie in the Western Churches was about A. D. 767. in the time of Constantinus Copronymus , upon which in the time of Pepin King of France , there was a Synod held at Gentilly near Paris for determining a Controversie between the Greeks and Latins about the Trinity , as appears by the several testimonies of Ado and Rhegino in their Chronicles , produced by Pithaeus , Petavius , and others : but little more is left of that Convention , besides the bare mention of it ; but it seems the ashes were only raked over these coals then , which about two and fourty years after , A.D. 809. broke out into a greater flame ; for , as appears by the testimonies of the same Ado , and Adelmus or Ademarus , a Synod was held at Aquisgrane , about this very question , Whether the Spirit did proceed from the Son as well as the Father ; which question , they say , was started by one John a Monk of Hierusalem , which Monk Pithaeus supposeth to be Johannes Damascenus , who after Theodoret most expresly denyed the Procession from the Son ; but whether it was he or any other , it seems from that Council called by Charls the Great , there were several Legats ( called Apocrisiarij ) dispatched to Rome to know the judgment of the present Pope Leo 3. concerning this Controversie ; the Legats were Bernarius , Jesse , and Adalhardus , the two former the Bishops of Worms and Amiens , the latter the Abbot of Corbey . But Petavius herein betrayes either his fraud or inadvertency , that he will by no means admit that these came to the Pope to know his judgement concerning the Procession it self , but only concerning the Addition of the Filioque to the Creed , which now began to be used in the Gallican Churches with that Addition . But although I grant , that the main of their business was concerning the Addition of Filioque , by the same token that Leo condemned it , as will appear afterwards ; yet that brought on the discourse concerning the Doctrine it self of the Procession from the Son. For in the Acts of Smaragdus which were sent to Charls the Great , giving an account of this Controversie , which are published both by Baronius , and Sirmondus ; it appears that when they urge the Pope for his consent to the addition of Filioque , they make use of this Argument , That it was a matter of Faith , and therefore none should be ignorant of it ; upon which they ask the Pope this Question ; Whether if any one doth not know or doth not believe this Article , he could be saved ? To which the Pope returns this wise and cautious Answer . Whosoever by the subtilty of his wit can reach to the knowledge of it , and knowing it , will not believe it , he cannot be saved . For there are many things , of which this is one , which being the deeper mysteries of Faith , to the knowledge of which many can attain , but many others cannot , being hindred either through want of age , or capacity ; and therefore , as we said before , he that can and will not , shall not be saved . I pray , Sir , do me the Favour to let me know your judgement , whether this Pope were Infallible or no ? or , will you acknowledge that he was quite beside the Cushion , that is , not in Cathedrâ when he spake it ? What ? not then , when Solemn Legats were dispatched from a Council purposely to know his judgement in a matter of Controversie , which the Church was divided about ? If so , the Pope shall never be in Cathedrâ but when you will have him ; or if he were there , you will surely say , he did not act very Apostolically , when he spake these words . For , can any thing be more plain , then that the Pope determins this Article of the Procession from the Son , to be no necessary Article of Faith : but acknowledgeth it to be one of the deeper mysteries of Religion which none were obliged to believe , but such as could reach to the knowledge of ; which either want of age in some , capacity in others , and invincible prejudice in many more , might keep them from the knowledge of ? Thus it appears by the Pope's judgement , the denyal of this could be no Heresie then , because he declares it , not to be necessary to be believed by all . What now must we think of this Pope , if we apply your words to him . Were all other succeeding ages blind , and this Pope only clear and sharp-sighted ? which judgement of his must be called nothing short of swelling presumption ; and if you please St. Austin shall be quoted for it too , but it must be in some other place , besides that where he sayes , that Pride is the Mother of Heresie . Do you think we can do other then hugely applaud our selves , in seeing you so furiously lay about you , when we know , your first blows fall on the Fathers , and your second cut off one Leg at least of your Infallible Chair . Can we have better security against you then the judgement of one of your own Popes ? may we not well be accounted blind , when for our sakes Infallibility it self must be so too ? If you tell us that after - Popes declared otherwise : I have but one request to make to you , viz. To make it appear , that when two Popes shall determine both parts of a Contradiction to be true , they both are Infallible in doing so . But if we proceed a little further , it may be we shall find the judgement of another Pope agreeing with this . For which we must consider that A. D. 858 , Ignatius the Patriarch of Constantinople being imprisoned by the Emperour Michael , and Photius being placed in his room , in a Council held by Photius A. D. 861 , Ignatius was condemned , upon which he being likewise condemned by Pope Nicolaus at Rome , he doth as much for him at Constantinople . So that those grudges which had been before more closely carried between the Greeks and Latins , did now openly discover themselves . But among several other things which Photius charged the Latin Church with , the chiefest and that which he insists on with the greatest vehemency is , That they did attempt to corrupt and adulterate the holy and sacred Symbol of Faith , which had obtained an unalterable force by the Decrees of Synods and Councils , with false senses and new additions , by an unmeasurable confidence . O their Diabolical machinations ! for by a strange innovation , they make the Holy Ghost proceed not only from the Father , but the Son too . This we find in his Encyclical Epistle , published by him on the account of the difference between the Latin and the Greek Church , in which he largely disputes against the Doctrine of the Procession of the Spirit from the Son , and , as we see , charges the Latins with fraud , presumption , and a desire of Innovation , in the inserting that Article into the Creed . Not long after , this Pope Nicolaus having advised with the Gallican Bishops what to do in this business , dyes ; to whom Adrian succeeds as bitter against Photius as his Predecessor , and had more advantage against him then the other had . For , at Constantinople the Emperour Michael being slain by Basilius whom he had adopted to a Partnership in the Empire the year before , he presently banisheth Photius , restoreth Ignatius , calleth a Council A. D. 869 , in which Photius is Anathematized ; and , for the greater execration of him , they dipt their Pens wherewith they subscribed , in the Sacred Chalice . This the Latins call the eighth Oecumenical Synod . Notwithstanding all which , Ignatius being dead , Photius is restored by Basilius Macedo , A. D. 878. Legats are dispatched to Pope John 8. ( as in courtesie to you we call him ) who succeeded Adrian , that Photius might be restored to the communion of the Church and his Patriarchal dignity ; which is presently done . The year following , a General Council is held at Constantinople , in which the Popes Legats are present , and this the Greeks only admit for the eighth Oecumenical . In which all that was done against Photius is abrogated , the Constantinopolitan Creed without the addition of Filioque is solemnly read , and it is decreed against the Latins , the Popes Legats consenting , that nothing should be added to the Creed . But lest you should think the Popes Legats were practised upon by some arts of Photius ( for some of his Enemies among other reproaches , did not stick to say , he learnt Magick from the famous Santarabenus ) . And , that it was done without the Popes free consent : we have his own testimony afterwards in approbation of it . For Pithaeus , an ingenuous as well as very learned man , confesseth , that the Letters of this Pope are still extant among the Latins , by which it appears that he condemned all the Synods held against Photius , whether at Rome or Constantinople ; and the Patriarch Hieremias ( whose testimony in other cases you make much of ) saith expresly , not only that the Pope consented to this Synod , by the Cardinal Peter , and Paulus , and Eugenius who were there his Legats ; but that in an Epistle he writ to Photius , he hath these words . I declare again to your Grace , concerning that Article , by which such scandals have been in the Churches of Christ. Assure your self , that we not only speak this , but that we really judge , Those who first durst out of their presumption do this , to be transgressors of the sacred Oracles , changers of the Doctrine of our Lord Christ , and the Holy Fathers , and we place them in the Society of Judas . What Article was this , I pray , which the Pope is so zealous against ? even no other then that which you account all blind who do not esteem the denyal of it Heresie . It seems then we have one more added to the number of Heretical Popes ; for , Photius himself could not express more vehemency against this Article then the Pope doth , and that when by his Legats in a Council ( therefore Infallible , according to you , because confirmed by the Pope ) he had declared himself utterly against the addition of this Article to the Creed . And instead of accounting them Hereticks who denyed it , you see how much worse then Hereticks he accounted them who first added it . So that I wonder , you do not rather account the belief of that Article Heresie , than the denyal of it . I know well enough , how your party rail here to purpose against Photius ; but what is all that to the business ? Let Photius be what he will , Were not the Popes Legats present at the Council ? Did not they confirm the decrees of it ? Did not the Pope afterwards ratifie it ? So that if ever Council were Infallible according to your Principles , this must be ; choose therefore , either to relinquish the Pope's and Councils Infallibility , or else acknowledge that men at one time may be infallibly guilty of violating Scriptures , Fathers , Councils for asserting that Doctrine , which they may be Infallibly guilty of Heresie for not asserting at another . I know very well , that Marinus who succeeded John 8. at Rome , condemned his Predecessors acts and Photius together , ( for he was before imployed both by Nicolaus and Adrian in the excommunicating and condemning Photius ) but what this proves I understand not , any further , then that still one Pope may Infallibly contradict another , or that a Pope without a Council shall be more Infallible then with one , or lastly ( which is the grand Arcanum Imperii ) those Popes and those Decrees which are for the present interest of the Church of Rome must be owned as Infallible ; but for the rest , the best Art must be used to blast them that may be . And for this you want not your many tricks and devices to accuse Authors of Forgery , cry out on them for Hereticks , rail out of measure when you have nothing else to say ; or if after all this , Testimonies stand of force against you , then nothing is left , but Excogitato commento detorquere in alium sensum , to find out some trick to wrest them to another sense , as the Authors of the Belgick Index Expurgatorius professed in the case of Bertram . But for all men who think it not lawful to say any thing in a bad Cause , this may certainly be sufficient to shew , that if Fathers and Councils may be relyed on , if Popes and Councils be Infallible , that was not accounted an Heresie by them , which you condemn for such in the Greek Church . Having thus discovered , that this opinion you condemn for Heresie in the Greek Church , was otherwise esteemed both by Fathers , Oecumenical Councils , and Popes ; I come to that which you seem to rely on for making it Heretical , viz. That the Greeks and Latins both together condemned it for Heretical in the General Council at Florence . Although it might be worth our while to inquire how far any General Council can either make or declare that to be a necessary Article of Faith , which was determined to be otherwise by former General Councils . But omitting that at present which we may have a fitter occasion to discuss in the question of fundamentals , and the Infallibility of General Councils ; I therefore come to examine the matter of fact in the Florentine Council , concerning the determination of this opinion there as Heretical . Wherein if we consider the time in which , and the occasion upon which this Council was call'd , if we consider the way of the managery of it , the Arts whereby the Greeks were drawn to this consent , the manner of proposing the Decrees of it , or the acceptance which it found in the Greek Church , upon none of these respects we shall have cause to look upon it as a free and General Council , determining that opinion as Heretical , which you say was so determined here . In all which we must profess how much we are obliged to that faithful and impartial account of all the proceedings relating to this Council , written by Sylvester Sguropulus one present at the most secret negotiations of it , transcribed out of the MS in the King of France his Library , by Claudius Sarravius , and first published for the general good of the world by our learned Dean of Wells . It appears then , that which gave the first rise to the thoughts of union between the Greek and Latin Churches , was the miserable condition which the Greek Empire was now reduced to , by the incursions of the Turks and Saracens . For it seems for thirty years , ( before that an Embassadour was sent to Rome from Manuel Palaeologus to negotiate the business of the union ) from the time of the Patriarch Nilus and Pope Vrban , there had been no entercourse at all between the Popes and Patriarchs , but now upon this address made to them by the Greeks , the Popes caress them with all imaginable kindness , feed them high with Promises , engage their utmost to promote this union , ( well knowing with what advantage to themselves it might be managed in this Critical juncture of their affairs ) . For now Amurath . 2. having subdued Peloponnesus , had advanced almost to the walls of Constantinople , and therefore when the Pope sent one to the Emperour and Patriarch to appoint a day for the Council , they told him they could not then have leisure to think of Councils ; and if they had , by reason of the fury of the Wars the Bishops could not be assembled together to make a full Council . But it seems the state of affairs grew worse still with them , and the Dead-Palsy of Manuel Pelaeologus was but an Embleme of a worse in the State , the Empire being brought daily into greater dangers . Which put Johannes Palaeologus upon further thoughts , how any help or relief might be had from the West in this extremity . But they might easily understand the terms of that Vnion from the Speech of the Cardinals to the Emperours Legats , That the Roman Church was the Mother , and the Eastern only the Daughter , and therefore it was but fit that the Daughter should submit to the Mother ; That for their parts , they would not leave the decision of this Controversie to multitudes of voices , ( it seems then they had high thoughts of the Infallibility of General Councils ) , but three should be chosen on either side , who being apart by themselves should invoke God , and whatever he should reveal unto them , that all should consent to : For he that hath said , that Where two or three are gathered together in his Name he would be in the midst of them ; he that made the Ass to speak ( the Cardinal 's own Argument ) would not fail of letting them know his Will Infallibly , which was to be received from them by all others . ( There may be then a much readier way for Infallibility , than by Pope and Councils ) . But if nothing else would satisfie but a Council , it must be in Italy , contrary to the Popes promise before , that it should be at Constantinople ; but when they urged the vastness of the expense , and unsuitableness of it to their present necessities ; rather then a matter likely to be so much for the advantage of the See of Rome should not go forward , the Pope proffers to advance a considerable sum of money for the defraying the charges of the Greeks , both in coming to , and abiding at the Council . Which those who understand not the intrigues of that Court , would have thought had been far better spent in a present supply of the Greek Emperour , the better to have enabled him to defend the Christian Churches from the invasion of their enemies . But any one who looks into the management of things , will easily discern upon what grounds the Pope chose rather a dilatory proceeding , drawing the Emperour and so many Bishops from Greece into Italy at that time , and all the while to feed them with rich Promises of Assistance upon condition that the Vnion was accomplished ; but at last after two years attendance ( for so long the Council continued at Ferrara and Florence ) the poor Emperour was sent home as empty as he came , and found things in a much worse condition then he left them . Which could not rationally be expected to be otherwise . When the Greeks knew that the Emperour had assented that the Council should be in Italy , they began strangely to be troubled at it , some resolved never to communicate more in the Councils of the Vnion ; the Patriarch often said , that he knew no good issue could come of a Council held in the Popes Territories ; and if they must receive their allowance from the Pope , what did they else but therein confess themselves his Vassals already , and therefore nothing could be expected from them , but to do just what he would have them ; or else he might easily starve them into consent and approbation of his Will. For they should be wholly under his power , and if he denyed their stipends , there was no possibility of getting from him . Was not this then like to be a very free Council ? And it proved accordingly : for when they were at Council the Pope kept them short enough , so that many of them were reduced to the greatest necessities , and were not suffered unless by stealth to go so much as out of the Gates of the City , as Bessarion himself once found , when he attempted it at Florence . But notwithstanding all the perswasions of the wisest of his Councellors at home to the contrary , notwithstanding an Express from the Emperour Sigismund to disswade the Greek Emperour in the present state of affairs from this journy into Italy , yet he was resolved upon it , and used all the arts he could before-hand to make choice of such persons as might be most for his purpose . Himself without the consent of the Patriarch , appointing the Legats of the three other Patriarchs of Jerusalem , Antioch , and Alexandria : and when these Patriarchs had given no other instructions to these Legats , then that they should have power to give their suffrages upon these terms and no other , That all things were carried fairly , and defined Canonically , according to the decrees of Oecumenical Councils and Holy Fathers , so that nothing should be added , changed , or innovated in the Symbol of Faith ; he at the instigation of one of the Latin Legats , then resident at Constantinople , sent away to the several Patriarchs , for the altering their instructions , upon a solemn Promise that the conditions mentioned by them should however be exactly observed : which whether they were or no , will appear by the series of the story . And that we may better judge how General this Council was like to be , at the same time that these negotiations for Vnion were on foot , the Council of Basil was then sitting in opposition to Pope Eugenius ; to them and to the Pope at the same time , the Emperour dispatcheth several Legats with the same instructions , and both of them returned theirs to the Emperour , seeking as much as possible to outvy each other in large Promises if the Greeks did joyn in Council with them ; both which the Emperour held in play till he could see with whom he was like to make the best terms . But as the Romanists are never backward at such arts , they had caused it by their Instruments to be reported at Constantinople , that the Council at Basil had submitted to the Pope , which within fifteen days was confuted by the arrival of the Gallyes sent from the Council to convey the Greeks over to it ; upon which the Emperour had much to do to keep Condelmerius the Popes Nephew from fighting the Councils Gallies within his view ; for he said , he had express order from the Pope to sink them where-ever he met them . And were not these fair tendencies to a free and General Council ? And yet after all this , not full thirty Bishops of the Greek Church went along with the Patriarch , as appears by the particular enumeration of them by Sguropulus : other Officers indeed , and Monks , there were to fill up the number ; and yet these were more then the Emperour could well mould to his designes when he had them there . But the Pope soon accomplished the Patriarchs prediction in keeping them bare enough , when they were at his finding , that he might be sure to make them hungry Greeks , and then he supposed the other part of the Proverb would follow after . After the Council had begun at Ferrara , and continued there sixteen Sessions , wherein were many publick and solemn Disputes between the Greeks and Latins , it was removed to Florence ; where the Greeks still underwent the same hardships , and the Latins sought to hold out at Disputations , till the Greeks necessity should be so pressing , as to necessitate them to an absolute submission to the Latin Church . But , Reports and Messages coming from Constantinople , acquainting the Emperour with the difficulties the City was in , and the Progress which the enemies made ; and finding , that during the sitting of the Council the Pope still put him off and gave him nothing but words , he therefore resolves upon another course ; he breaks all publick and Conciliary proceedings , pretending that no issue would come of those Disputations , calls a private Cabal of such whom he knew fittest for his purpose to contrive some shorter way to put an end to this business . For that end , makes choice first of ten Persons of either side to agree upon some proposals for Union , and acquaints none else of the Greeks with their transactions . When these things took no effect , the Patriarch who carryed on the Emperour's design , often convenes the Greeks together , and in plain terms perswades them to perfect dissimulation , that since the necessity of affairs was such , it would be hugely for their advantage , if in some things they did yield to the Latins desires . When they told him that in matters of Faith they could not do it , he replyes , that if in twenty four Articles of Faith they yielded but in one , the soundness of twenty three would make amends for the twenty fourth . Such kind of Arguments as these were they driven to , to bring the Greeks to hearken to any terms of Vnion . After this , the Latins sent them an explication of Faith , which if the Greeks would subscribe , there might be an Union between them : which being read among them , containing chiefly the acknowledgement of the Procession from the Son , all but the four who were the Emperour's instruments in this work , unanimously disown it : and when the Emperour urged them every one to deliver their Suffrages in writings , they tell him , it was contrary to the proceeding of all Oecumenical Councils : However , he told them he commanded them to do it . By which means rebuking some , cajoling others , he at last brought it by the multitude of Suffrages , that five persons were selected among the rest , to draw up a Form of Vnion ; which , though drawn up very favourably for the Greeks , yet , those who were for it , did not easily carry it from those who opposed it . And yet to this the Latins returned no less than twelve Exceptions : Upon which the Emperour was fain to take a new course , and exclude those from the Councils , who were of greatest authority in obstructing his designs ; but Marcus Ephesius still continued in so great opposition , that he publickly charged the Latins opinion with Heresie . Notwithstanding all which , when it was put to Suffrage , Whether the Spirit did proceed from the Son ; for ten who affirmed it , there were seventeen who denyed it , which put them yet to more disquietment , and new Councils . At first the Emperour would vote himself , which when the Patriarch kept him from , some advised him to remove more of the Dissenters : but , instead of that , they used a more plausible and effectual way ; the Emperour and Patriarch sent for them severally , and some they upbraided with ingratitude , others they caressed with all expressions of kindness , both by themselves and their Instruments : Yet , at the last , they could get but thirteen Bishops to affirm the Procession from the Son , all others being excluded the power of giving Suffrage ; who were accustomed formerly to give it , such as the great Officers of the Church of Constantinople , the Coenobiarchs and others ; but to fill up the number , all the Courtiers were called in , who made no dispute , but did presently what the Emperour would have them do . Having dispatched this after this manner , the other Controversies concerning the Addition to the Creed , unleavened bread in the Eucharist , Purgatory , Pope's Supremacy , the Emperour agreed them privately , never so much as communicating them to the Greek Synod . Among the Emperours Instruments , the Bishop of Mitylene went roundly to work , saying openly , Let the Pope give me so many Florens to be distributed to whom I think fit , and I make no question but to bring them in very readily to subscribe the Vnion ; which he accordingly effected ; and the same way was taken with several others : by which , and other means , most of those who were excluded from the Suffrages were at last perswaded to Subscribe . This is the short account of the management of those affairs at Florence , which are more particularly and largely prosecuted by the Author , wherein we see what Clandestine Arts , what menaces , and insinuations , what threats and promises were used to bring the poor Greeks to consent to this pretended Vnion . For it afterwards appeared to be no more than pretended ; for the infinitely greater number of Bishops at home refused it , and these very Bishops themselves , when they saw what arts were used in it , fell of● from it again , and the Emperour found himself at last deceived in his great expectations of help from the Latins . Must we then acknowledge this for a free and General Council , which hath a promise of Infallibility annexed to the definitions of it ? Shall we from hence pronounce the Greeks Doctrine to be Heretical , when for all these proceedings , yet at last no more was agreed on , than that they did both believe the Procession from the Son , without condemning the other opinion as Heretical , as you pretend , which the Greeks would never have consented to ? or Anathematizing the persons who denyed it , as was usual in former General Councils , who did suppose it not enough to have it virtually done by the positive definition , but did expresly and formally do it . For when this Anathematizing dissenters was propounded among the Greeks by Bessarion of Nice , and Isidore of Russia ( who for their great service to the Pope in this business were made Cardinals ) it was refused by the rest , who were zealous promoters of the Vnion . Thus I have at large ( more out of a design to vindicate the Greek Church , than being necessitated to it by any thing you produce ) shewed , that there is no reason from Authority either before or after the Council of Florence , to charge the Greek Church with Heresie . I now come to the examination of your Theological Reason , by which you think you have so evidently proved the Greeks Opinion to be Heresie , that you introduce it with confidence in abundance . But , say you , though this perswasion had not been attested by such clouds of witnesses , Theological Reason is so strong a Foundation to confirm it , that I wonder how rational men could ever be induced to question the truth of it . Still you so unadvisedly place your expressions , that the sharpest which you use against your adversaries return with more force upon your self : For it being so fully cleared , that these clouds of witnesses are Fathers , Councils , and Popes against you , What do you else by this expression , but exclude them from the number of Rational men , because , forsooth , not acquainted with the depth of your Theological Reason . But , Is not this to make all the Churches of Christendom for many hundred years quite blind , and your self only clear and sharp-sighted ? Which swelling presumption what Spirit it argues , &c. You see wee need no other weapons against you , but your immediate preceding words . What pitty it is , that the Fathers and Councils had not been made acquainted with this grand Secret of your Theological Reason ? but happy we that have it at so cheap a rate ! but it may be that is it which makes us esteem it no more . But such as it is , it being Reason and Theological too , it deserves the greatest respect that may be , if it makes good its title . His Lordship had said , That since the Greeks , notwithstanding this opinion of theirs , deny not the equality or Consubstantiality of the Persons in the Trinity , he dares not deny them to be a true Church for this opinion , though he grants them erronious in it . So this you reply , Is it ( think you ) enough to assert the Divinity , and Consubstantiality , and personal Distinction of the Holy Ghost ( as the Bishop sayes ) to save from Heresie the denyal of his Procession from the Father and the Son as from one Principle ? But why is it not enough ? your Theological Reason is that we want , to convince us of the contrary ; That therefore follows . Would not he that should affirm the Son to be a distinct person from , and Consubstantial to the Father , but denyed his eternal Generation from him , be an Heretick ? Or he , who held the Holy Ghost , distinct from , and Consubstantial to them both , but affirmed his Procession to be from the Son only , and not from the Father , be guilty of Heresie ? It is then most evident , that not only an errour against the Consubstantiality and Distinction , but against the Origination , Generation , and Procession of the Divine Persons , is sufficient matter of Heresie . Your faculty at Clinching your Arguments , is much better than of Driving them in : For your Conclusion is most evident , when your Premises have nothing like evidence in them . For , 1. He that doth acknowledge the Son to be Consubstantial with the Father , and yet a distinct person from him , must needs therein acknowledge his Eternal Generation : for how he should be the Son of the same nature with God , and yet having a distinct Personality as a Son , without Eternal Generation ; is so hard to understand , that I must confess , that whoever asserts the one , and deny's the other , is so far from Theological Reason , that I think he hath no common reason in him . Is this then , think you , a parallel case with the Procession of the Spirit from the Son , which may be supposed Consubstantial to Father and Son , and a distinct person from both , without any Connotation of respect to the Personality of the Son , as a principle of Spiration ? 2. He that should affirm the Procession of the Spirit only from the Son , and not the Father , would speak much more absurdly than the Greeks do ; for thereby he would destroy the Father's being the fountain or principle of Origination , as to the distinct Hypostases of Son and Spirit ; he would plainly and directly thwart the Creed of the second General Council ; and , which is more than would speak directly against express words of Scripture , which say , The Spirit proceeds from the Father : which by the consent of the Christian Church , hath been interpreted of the Eternal Procession . And by this time , I hope you begin to have better thoughts of rational men , than to make such a wonder at their questioning the Greeks Heresie ; but if this be your Theological Reason , one scruple of common reason goes far beyond it . We have had a fair proof of your skill at charging , we shall now see how good you are at standing your ground . Your main defence lyes in a distinction which ruines you ; for you think to ward off all the citations his Lordship produceth against you out of the Schoolmen and others , that the Greeks and Latins agree with each other , in eandem fidei sententiam , upon the same sentence of Faith , but differ only in words , by saying , That the Greeks must be distinguished into Ancient and Modern . The Ancient , you say , expressed themselves per filium , but they meant thereby à filio : whereas the Modern Greeks will not admit that expression à filio , but per filium only , and that too in a sense dissignificative to à filio . This is the substance of all the answer you give , both in general , and to the particular authorities for several pages ; The disproof therefore of this distinction must by your own Confession , make all those testimonies stand good against you ; which I shall do by two things . 1. By shewing that the Ancient Greeks did assert as much as the Modern do in this Controversie . 2. That those who speak expresly of the Modern Greeks , do deny their difference from us in any matter of Faith. 1. That the Ancient Greeks did assert as much as the Modern do . By the Ancient Greeks , we must here understand those who writ before the Schoolmen , whose testimonies you would answer by this distinction . Now nothing can be more clear than that those Greeks who writ before them , did as peremptorily deny the Procession from the Son , as any of the Modern Greeks do . We have already produced the testimony of Theodoret , who accounts the contrary opinion blasphemous and impious ; and that of Photius , who so largely and vehemently disputes against the Procession from the Son. To whom I shall add two more of great reputation , not only in the Greek , but in the Latin Church ; and those are Theophylact and Damascen . Theophylact , whether he lived in the time of Photius , about 870 , as the common opinion is , or more probably in the time of Michael Cerularius , as great an adversary as Photius to the Latins , about 1070. yet was long enough before the Schoolmen : for Peter Lombard flourished . A. D. 1145. and Thomas and Bonaventure , about 1260. So that in this respect he must be one of the Ancient Greeks ; He therefore delivers his opinion as expresly as may be in his Commentaries on St. John ; and that not as his own private opinion , but as the common sense of the Greek Church ; for there taking occasion to speak how the Spirit is the Spirit of the Son , For the Latins , saith he , apprehend it amiss , and mistaking it , say , That the Spirit proceeds from the Son. But we answer , That it is one thing to say , The Spirit is the Spirit of the Son , which we assert ; and another , that it proceeds from the Son , which we deny ; for it hath no testimony of Scripture for it , and then we must bring in two principles , the Father and the Son. And withall adds , that when Christ breathed the Spirit on his Disciples , it is not to be understood personally , but in regard of the gift of remission of sins ; after which , he briefly and comprehensively sets down the opinion of the Greek Church : Believe thou that the Spirit doth proceed from the Father , but is given to men by the Son ; and let this be the Rule of sound doctrine to thee . And what now do the Modern Greeks say more than Theophylact did ? or what do they say less ; for they acknowledge , that the Spirit is the Spirit of the Son as well as he ? To the same purpose Damascen , who lived between the 6. and 7. Synod , about A. D. 730. in the time of Leo Isaurus , delivers the sense of the Greek Church in his time concerning this Article . It must be considered , saith he , That we assert not the Father to be from any , but that he is said to be the Father of the Son. We say not , that the Son is a proper cause , neither the Father , but we say , the Son is from the Father , and of the Father . The Holy Spirit , we say , is from the Father ; and of the Father ; but we say not , the Spirit is from the Son , but we call him the Spirit of the Son ; And we confess , that by the Son , the Spirit is manifested and given to us . These words are so plain , that the Patriarch Hieremias producing them , saith , Nothing can be more clear and evident than these words are . But the Philosopher , who was so much pleased to see the Ass mumble his thistles , could not take much less contentment to see how the Schoolmen handle this testimony of Damascen . For , being very loath that so zealous an assertor of Images , should in any thing seem opposite to the Church of Rome , they very handsomly , and with wonderful subtilty bring him off , by admiring the wisdom and caution he useth , in these words . So your own St. Bonaventure , whose testimony youthink so considerable , as to produce at large , Tamen ipse cautè loquitur , unde non dicit quod Spiri●us non est à filio , sed dicit , non dicimus à filio , which you put in great letters the more to be taken notice of . But , I pray , What was it which Damascen was there delivering of ? was it not the sense of the Greek Church concerning the Persons of the Trinity ? and how could he otherwise have expressed it , than by non dicimus ; but if this must argue what Bonaventure and you would have from it ( for this is the only testimony you give of your distinction of Ancient and Modern Greeks ) will it not as well hold for the other things before mentioned concerning the Father and the Son , where he useth dicimus & non dicimus , as well as here ? And therefore Aquinas was much wiser , who plainly condemns Damascen for a Nestorian in this , licet à quibusdam dicatur , &c. Although it be said by some , that in these words , he neither affirms or denys it ; wherein I am much mistaken , if he reflects not on Bonaventure . Vasquez , Petavius , and several others think to bring Damascen off by the distinctions of à filio , and per filium , much to your purpose : but in the great dispute at the Council at Florence between Bessarion and Marcus Ephesius , about the importance of the Articles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Marcus Ephesius produceth the words of Damascen expresly , that the Spirit doth not proceed from the Son , but by the Son , whereby it is plain , that he understood per filium , in opposition to à filio . And Bessarion had nothing else to return in answer to it , but that he could produce but one out of Antiquity , who said so . Thus we see , if Theophylact and Damascen , as well as Theodoret and Photius , be Ancient Greeks ; your distinction comes to nothing . But besides this , it appears by the disputations of Hugo Etherianus against the Greeks , who lived , saith Bellarmin , A. D. 1160. still extant in the Bibliotheca Patrum , that the Greeks held the very same then that they do now . And so in the Synod of Bar in Apulia , when Anselm disputed so stoutly against the Greeks , that Pope Vrban said , he was , alterius orbis Papa , as the story is related by Eadmerus and Wilhelmus Malmesburiensis ; it appears , they denyed the Procession of the Spirit absolutely from the Son ; ( and this was A. D. 1096. ) as is evident from the Letter of Hildebertus to him about the publishing his Disputation , and from the Book of Anselm still extant on that subject . We find not therefore any ground for this distinction of yours concerning the Ancient and Modern Greeks ; and therefore they who said , that there was no real difference in any matter of Faith between the Ancient Greeks and Latins , must be understood as well of the Modern Greeks , as them : Their words being no more capable of such a tolerable interpretation as you speak of , than the words of any of the Modern Greeks are . His Lordship was proving , that the point was not fundamental , that the Greeks and Latins differed in from that acknowledgement of Peter Lombard , and the Schoolmen ; that is to say , The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Son , and that he is , or proceeds from the Father and the Son , is not to speak different things , but the same sense in different words . Now in this cause , saith he , where the words differ , but the sentence of Faith is the same , ( penitùs eadem ) even altogether the same , can the point be fundamental ? But , say you , he was to prove , that such as were in grievous errour in Divinity , erred not fundamentally ; and , for proof of this , he alledges such as have no real errour at all in Divinity . But do you not herein wilfully mistake his Lordships meaning ? For in the Paragraph foregoing , his Lordship first declares his own judgement concerning the denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost , viz. That he did acknowledge it to be a grievous errour in Divinity : but yet he could not judge the Greeks guilty of a fundamental errour , which he proves by a double medium . 1. Because they did not thereby deny the Equality and Consubstantiality of the persons . 2. Because divers learned men were of opinion , [ that à filio , & per filium ] in the sense of the Greek Church , was but a question in modo loquendi , and therefore not fundamental ; now for this he produceth those testimonies . Now , I pray , do you put no difference between the making the denyal of a Proposition to be an errour , and the saying , that such persons are guilty of the denyal of that Proposition . His Lordship grants the denyal of the Procession to be a grievous errour in Divinity , but he questioned ( as the Greeks expressed themselves , for those very words he inserts ) whether they were guilty of denying that Proposition , as appears by the authorities of the Schoolmen , and therefore certainly much less guilty of a fundamental errour . Thus you see his Lordship fully proves what he intends ; for if they agreed in sense , they were much less guilty of a fundamental errour , than if they had plainly denyed the Procession , which he supposeth from those Authorities that they did not . And therefore when you Sarcastically ask , Is not this strong Logick ? The only answer I shall give you , is , That if you apprehend it not to be so , it is because of the weakness of your Theological Reason . And therefore you put his Lordships Defender on a strange task , to prove from those Authorities , that those Greeks who erre grievously in Divinity , erre not fundamentally . When the only design of his Lordship , in producing those Authorities , was to shew , that according to their opinion , the Greeks were so far from erring fundamentally , that they did not erre grievously in Divinity . And to this purpose the citation of Peter Lombard was pertinent , who saith , That because the Greeks acknowledge , that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Son , though he doth not proceed from him ; therefore the difference between the Greeks and Latins , is in words , and not in sense ; but , you say , He speaks only of such as differed in words , and not in substance ; as though he put a difference between the Greeks , that some differed in words , and others really , which is quite beside his meaning : for he takes not the least notice of any such difference among themselves ; but saith , The difference it self concerning the Procession , the Greeks acknowledging the Holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Son , is more verbal , than real . And that the present Greeks say full as much , is evident ; for they acknowledge the same things in express words . The testimony of Bonaventure hath been already considered , as far as concerns Damascen ; as for the rest , it was sufficient for his Lordships purpose , to produce such a Confession from so bitter an enemy of the Greeks , as Bonaventure was ( so his Lordship in his Marginal Citation sayes truly of him , licèt Graecis infensissimus , &c. ) that he doth not deny but that salvation might be had without the article of Filioque ; but whether on that supposition there were sufficient reason to add it to the Creed , will be considered afterwards . Though Bonaventure held the Greeks to be Hereticks and Schismaticks , I hope you do not think , that is Argument enough to perswade us that they were so . That any thing , without which salvation might have been had before , may , by the definition of your Church , become so necessary , that men cannot be saved without the belief of it , had need be more than barely asserted either by Bonaventure , or you ; and we must wait for the proof of it , for any thing here said by either of you . That the Greeks might be excused by Ignorance , before such Declaration of your Church concerning the Filioque , and not be excused after through greater ignorance of any such Power in your Church , to declare such things to be matters of Faith , is an assertion not easie to be swallowed by such as have any strength of Logick , or one drachm of Theological Reason : Or else it is a very strange thing , you should think it sufficient for the Greeks to know , what your Church had declared without an antecedent knowledge that your Church had power to declare . How much you answer at random , appears by your answering Aquinas his testimony , instead of that of Jodocus Clictoveus , as is plain enough in his Lordships Margin ; and you might have been easily satisfied that it was so , if you had taken the pains to look into either of them . But the art of it was , Aquinas his testimony might be easily answered , because he speaks only by hear-say , concerning the opinion of some certain Greeks ; but Clictoveus , his was close to the purpose , who plainly confesseth , that the difference of the Ancient Greeks was more in words , and the manner of explaining the Procession then in the thing it self . This therefore you thought fit to slide by , and answer Aquinas for him . Your answer to Scotus depends on the former distinction of Ancient and Modern Greeks , and therefore falls with it . Bellarmin's answer concerning Damascen , and your own after Bonaventure of his non dicimus , hath been sufficiently disproved already . What Tolet holds , or the Lutherans deny , the words of neither being of either side produced , deserve no further consideration . You tell us , his Lordships Argument depends upon this , That the Holy Ghost may be equal and consubstantial with the Son , though he proceed not from it ; which , you say , is a matter too deep for his Lordship to wade into . But any indifferent Reader would think it had been your concernment to have shewn the contrary , that thereby you might seem to make good so heavy a charge , as that of Heresie , against the whole Greek Church . For , if the Holy Ghost cannot be equal and consubstantial with the Son , if it proceeds not from the Son ; then it follows , that they who deny this Procession , must deny that Equality and Consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Son : which you ought to prove , to make good your charge of Heresie . But on the other side , if the Spirit may be proved to be God by such Arguments as do not at all infer his Procession from the Son ; then his equality and consubstantiality doth not depend upon that Procession : for I suppose you grant , that it is the Vnity of Essence in the Persons which make them equal and consubstantial ; but we may sufficiently prove the Spirit to be God by such Arguments as do not infer the Procession from the Son ; as I might easily make appear by all the Arguments insisted on to that purpose : but I only mention that which the second General Council thought most cogent to that purpose , which is the Spirit 's eternal Procession from the Father ; if that proves the Spirit to be God , then its equality with the Son , is proved without his Procession from the Son ; for I hope you will not say , that the proving his Procession from the Father , doth imply Procession from the Son too : because the Procession cannot be supposed to be from the essence , for then the Spirit would proceed from it self , but from the Hypostasis , and therefore one cannot imply the concurrence of the other . And since you pretend so much to understand these depths ; before you renew a charge of Heresie against the Greek Church in this particular , make use of your Theological reason in giving an Intelligible Answer to these Questions . 1. Why the Spirit may not be equal and consubstantial to the other Persons in the Trinity , supposing his Procession to be only from the Father , as the Son to be equal and consubstantial with them , when his Generation is only from the Father ? 2. If the Procession from the Son be necessary to make the Spirit consubstantial with the Son , why is not Generation of the Son by the Spirit necessary to make the Son consubstantial with the Spirit ? 3. If the Spirit doth proceed from Father and Son as distinct Hypostases , how he can proceed from these Hypostases as one principle by one common Spiration , without confounding their Personalties ? or else , shew how two distinct Hypostases alwayes remaining so , can concur in the same numerical action ad intra ? 4. If there be such a necessity of believing this as an Article of Faith , why hath not God thought fit to reveal to us , the distinct emanations of the Son and Spirit ; and wherein the eternal Generation of the Son may be conceived as distinct from the Procession of the Spirit , when both equally agree in the same essence , and neither of them express the personality of the Father ? Either I say undertake intelligibly to resolve these things , or else surcease your charge of Heresie against the Greek Church , and upbraid not his Lordship for not entering into these depths . Methinks , their being confessed to be Depths on both sides , might teach you a little more modesty in handling them , and much more charity to men who differ about them . For you may see , the Greeks want not great plausibleness of reason on their side , as well as Authority of Scripture and Fathers , plain for them , but not so against them . As long therefore as the Greek Church confesseth the Divinity , Consubstantiality , Eternal Procession of the Spirit ; and acknowledgeth it to be the Spirit of the Son , there must be something more in it then the bare denyal of the Procession from the Son , which must make you so eager in your charge of Heresie against her . The truth is , there is something else in the matter ; by this Article of Filioque , the Authority of the Church of Rome in matters of Faith is struck at : and therefore if this be an Heresie , it must be on the account of denying the plenitude of her power in matters of Faith , as Anselm and Bonaventure ingenuously confess it , and plead it on that account . And therefore wise men are not apt to believe , but that if the Church of Rome had not been particularly concerned in this addition to the Creed ; if the Greeks would have submitted in all other things to the Church of Rome , this charge of Heresie would soon be taken off the File . But , as things stand , if she be not found guilty of Heresie , she may be found as Catholick as Rome , and more too , and therefore there is a necessity for it , she must be contented to bear it , for it is not consistent with the Interest of the Church of Rome , that she should be free from Heresie , Schism , &c. But if she hath no stronger Adversaries to make good the charge then you , she may satisfie her self , that though the blows be rude , yet they are given her by feeble hands . For let us now make way for Theological reason to enter the lists armed Cap-a-pe in Mood and Figure . For now at last you tell us , You will argue in Forme against his Lordship and the Greek Church together . And thus it proceeds , If the Greeks errour be not only concerning , but against the Holy Ghost , then ( according to the Bishops own distinction ) they have lost all assistance of that blessed Spirit , and are become no true Church ; But their errour is not only concerning , but against the Holy Ghost : Therefore , &c. The Major or first Proposition contains the Bishops own Doctrine , the Minor or second Proposition ( wherein you learnedly tell us , what the Major and Minor in Syllogisms are ) you thus prove . All errours , specially opposite to the particular and personal Procession of the Holy Ghost , are ( according to all Divines ) not only errours concerning , but errours against the Holy Ghost : But the Greeks errour is opposite to the particular and personal Procession of the Holy Ghost , as is already proved : Ergo , their errour is not only concerning , but against the Holy Ghost ; whose assistance therefore they have lost , not only according to the first , but even latter branch of the Bishops distinction : and consequently remain no true Church . Now who is there , that out of meer pitty can find in his heart not to yield this to you , when you have been at such pains to prove it ? But things set out with the greatest formality have not alwayes the most solidity in them . All the force of this Argument , such as it is , lye's in this , that his Lordship had said , That the errour of the Greeks was rather about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost , then against the Holy Ghost , which he after explains , by saying , It was not such an errour , as did destroy the equality or Consubstantiality of the Spirit with the other persons of the Trinity ; I pray now take his Lordships explication of himself , and you must form your Argument after another way then you have done : but you saw well enough , that you could not make any shew of an Argument but meerly from words . If I thought it worth considering , it were easie to tell you , that what is only against the Procession from the Son , is not thereby against the Holy Ghost , because it may be the Holy Ghost , i. e. the third person in the Trinity , though it proceed only from the Father . And as well you might say , that whatever Doctrine denies the Son to be begotten of the Spirit , is not only concerning , but against the Son , and urge the consequences upon as good terms as you do about the Spirit : But so trifling an Argument is too much honoured by any serious confutation . And , it seems , you were something sensible of it your self , when you say , His Lordship seemed to have provided against the force of it ( as who would not ? ) by hinting a difference between errours fundamental and not fundamental ; which point I shall purposely examine in the following Chapter . When you therefore come to hold forth what is now but hinted at , I shall readily hearken to what you have to say . Thus for any thing you have produced to the contrary , it sufficiently appears , that the Greek Church is very unjustly charged with Heresie by you , and that those testimonies which his Lordship produced , would as well hold for the Modern as Ancient Greeks : to which I might add the judgement of others of your own side , who speak as much concerning the Modern Greeks , as Thomas à Jesu , Azorius and others ; but I think not that way of arguing to have much force on either side , and therefore pass it over . And come to the debate of the Filioque , with which , you say , his Lordship begins to quibble , on occasion of the Popes inserting it into the Creed . But I am quite of another mind , I think he speaks very seriously , and with a great deal of reason , when he saith , And Rome in this particular should be more moderate , if it be but because this Article ( Filioque ) was added to the Creed by her self . And 't is hard to add and Anathematize too . For what you say to this , of the Holy Ghost's having leave to assist the Church , in adding expressions for the better explication of any Article of Faith : and then the Pope hath leave and command too , to Anathematize all such , as shall not allow the use of such expressions : I commend you , that when you must beg something , you would beg all that was to be had at once ; but , before you perswade us to the digesting such crudities as these are , prove but these following things . 1. Where it is , that there is any promise of the Ghost's assistance , in adding any Articles to the Creed , under pretence of better expressions for explication of them ? 2. Supposing such an assistance , what ground is there to impose such additional expressions , so that those who admit them not , must be guilty of Heresie , and consequently ( by your principles ) incurr eternal damnation . 3. How those expressions can be accounted a better explication of an Article of Faith , which contain something not implyed in , nor necessarily deduced from , any other Article of Faith ? 4. If this assistance be promised to the Church , how any one part of that Church , as great a part stifly opposing such additional expressions , can claim that assistance to it self ; the other parts of the Catholick Church , utterly denying it ? 5. If an assistance as to such things be promised the Church , why may it not be more reasonably presumed to be in an Oecumenical Council , as that at Ephesus forbidding such additions , than in any part of the Church , which after such a Decree shall directly contradict it ? 6. What right can the Church have to Anathematize any for the not using such expressions , which that Church which determins the use of them , doth acknowledge to be only expressions for better explication of an Article of Faith ? and consequently the denyal of them cannot amount to the denyal of an Article of Faith ? but only of the better explication of it . 7. If all these things be granted , how comes the Pope , not only to have leave , but command too , to Anathematize all such as use not these expressions ? Where is that Command extant ? how comes it to be limited to him ? Is he expressed in it ? or doth it by necessary consequence follow from it ? What good would it do us , to see but one of these proved , which you very fairly beg in the lump together : And , till you have proved them all , you may assure your self , that we shall never believe that the Pope hath so much as leave , much less command , to Add and Anathematize too . As to the Filioque , you grant , That many hundred years had passed from the time of the Apostles , before Filioque was added to the Nicene Creed , and more since the declarations and decrees were sufficiently published , and in all these years salvation was had without mention of Filioque . A fair Concession ; and nothing is wanting to destroy all that you had said before , but only this , that what was not once necessary to salvation , cannot by any after-declaration of the Church be made necessary , as shall be abundantly manifested in the Controversie of Fundamentals . What follows , must be more particularly considered , because therein you would fain remove the Article of Filioque , from being the cause of the Schism between the Eastern and Western Churches , and impute it wholly to the Pride and Ambition of the Eastern Prelates . Your words are . But it is also true , That the addition of Filioque to the Creed , was made many years before the difference brake out between the Latins and Greeks ; so that the inserting this word ( Filioque ) into the Creed , was not the first occasion of Schism : But grudges arising among the Greeks , who had been a large flourishing Church , with a number of most learned and zealous Prelates , and held the Articles still , though upon emptier heads ; such , quickly filled with wind , thinking their swelling places , and great City of Constantinople , might hold up against Rome ; they began to quarrel , not for places ( that was too mean a motive for such as look'd so big ) but first they would make it appear , they could teach Rome ; nay , they spyed out Heresies in it ( the old way of all Hereticks ) and so fell to question the Procession of the Holy Ghost ; and must needs have Filioque out of the Creed , These words of yours , lay the charge of Schism on the Greeks wholly , and therefore , in order to our vindication of them from that , two things must be enquired into . 1. Whether it was in your Churches Power to make the Addition of Filioque to the Creed . 2. Whether the Greeks Ambition and Pride were the only cause of the Separation between the Eastern and Western Churches . 1. Concerning the addition of Filioque , two things must be enquired into ; 1. When it began , and by whom it was added to the Creed . 2. Whether they who added it , had power so to do , and to impose on all others the use of it . 1. Concerning the time of this Addition , nothing seems more dark in Church-history than the precise and punctual time of it . And so much you acknowledge your self elsewhere . But it seems , it is your concernment , to say , That the Addition was made before the difference brake out . To that I answer , if you mean , that in some Churches the Procession from the Son was acknowledged before that difference , I grant it , as is clear by some Councils of Toledo ; and , that the doctrine of the Procession was received in France too , about the time of Charls the Great , I acknowledge , and that it was admitted into the solemn Offices of the Church ; but , that it was added to the Nicene and Constantinopolitan Creed to be received by all Churches ; so that it should not be lawful for any to use that Creed without such Addition , that I deny to have been before the Schism , but , assert it to have been a great occasion of it . It is acknowledged , that in Spain , several Councils of Toledo , in their profession of Faith , do mention the Procession from the Son ; but this they delivered only as their own private judgments , and not as the publick Creed received by all Churches . For , Petavius confesseth , that , in Symbolo ipso nihil adjecerunt , they added nothing at all to the Creed . And , although the custom of singing the Constantinopolitan Creed in the Liturgy , seems first to have begun in Spain , from whom Petavius supposeth both the French and Germans received it ; yet , even there it appears , it was not universally received . For , the Church of Sevil contented it self still with the Mozarabick Liturgy , in which only the bare Nicene Creed was used . You tell us indeed , That the inserting the Article in the Councils of Toledo , is supposed to have been done upon the authority of an Epistle they had received from Pope Leo : which , though it be not barely supposed , but asserted with great confidence by Baronius ; yet , ( as most other things in him which are brought to advance the Pope's Authority ) it hath no other ground but his confident assertion . There being not the least shadow of proof for it , but only that this Leo , in a certain Epistle of his to the Spaniards , did , once upon a time , mention , that the Son proceeded from the Father . Therefore , in Spain , I grant the Doctrine to be received ; I deny the Addition to be made to the Constantinopolitan Creed : although it be read , as added to it in the 8. or 10. Council of Toledo , under Reccesuintus A. D. 653. But this was still only the declaration of their own Faith , in this Article , and no imposing it on others . In France , that it began to be received in publick Use A. D. 809. must be acknowledged by the proceedings of the Legats from the Council of Aquisgrane to Pope Leo 3. But , it appears as clearly , that Pope Leo did then condemn the use of it , as will be shewed afterwards . When it should creep into the Athanasian Creed , seems as hard to find out , as when first added to the Constantinopolitan ; but , if we believe Pithaeus , the whole Creed was of a French Composition ( there being many Arguments to perswade us , it never was made by Athanasius ; of which , in their due place ) and Vossius adds , That it is very probable it was composed about the time of Charls the Great , the Controversie being then so rise about the Procession . But that seems the less probable , because the Article of Filioque is not found in the Ancient Copies of that Creed . For Spalatensis saith , That in all the Greek Copies he had seen , there was only mention made of the Procession from the Father . And the Patriarch Cyril saith , That not only the Symbol of Athanasius is adulterated among the Latins ; but , that it is proved to be so by the more ancient and genuine Copies : But , however this be , we deny not but the Article of Procession from the Son , grew into use , especially in the Gallican and Spanish Churches , before the Schism broke out between the Eastern and Western Churches ; but , our enquiry is not concerning that , but concerning the time when it was so added to the Constantinopolitan Creed , that it was required to be used only with that addition . For this you tell us , That Hugo Eterianus affirms , that it was added by the Pope in a full Council at Rome , but he names not the Pope . So likewise the Latin Divines , at the Council of Florence , pretended still , that it was added by the Pope in a full Council , but very carefully forbare the mention of the person , or the punctual time . But , it is your unhappiness , if there be divers opinions to be followed , to make choice of the most improbable ; as you do here , when you embrace that of Socolovius , which is , That the Fathers of the first Council at Constantinople , sending the Confession of their Faith to Pope Damasus , and his Council at Rome ; the Pope and Council at Rome approved of their said Confession ; but yet added , by way of explication , the word Filioque to the Article which concerned the Holy Ghost ; and this they did , to signifie , that the Holy Ghost as true God , proceeded from the Son , and was not made or created by him , as some Hereticks in those times began to teach . Neither doth he , say you , affirm this without citation of some credible authority . I could wish you had produced it , not only for our satisfaction , but of the more learned men of your own side ▪ who look on this as an improbable fiction . Bellarmin produceth many Arguments against it , saying , That no mention is made of it in the Councils , or Theodoret's History , who particularly relates the Letters of the Council to Damasus , and his to the Council ; that Leo 3. caused the Constantinopolitan Creed to be inscribed in a silver Table , without that Addition ; that the third Council of Toledo used the Creed without that Addition ; that the Greeks did not begin this Controversie till A. D. 600. And how could they possibly charge the Latins with breaking the Canons of the third Oecumenical ( when , according to this opinion ) it was added in the second . Petavius is so great a friend to your opinion , that in plain terms he calls it ridiculous , and abundantly confutes that imagination of its being inserted , because of the Heresie of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as Manuel Calecas calls it , who with Aristinus are all those worshipful Authorities which this opinion stands on . But , setting aside the contrary Authorities to these , any one , who is any thing versed in this Controversie , must needs esteem this the most improbable account that can be given of this Addition . For , if this were true , how little did the Latins at the Council at Florence understand their business ; when , if they could have produced such an Addition before the Ephesine Council , all the Greeks objections had come to nothing ? If this were true , how little did Leo 3. consult his own , or his predecessors honour , who disswaded the Legats of the Council at Aquisgrane , from continuing in the Creed that Addition of Filioque : for , when after a great deal of discourse concerning the Article and the Addition ; the Legats at last tell him , That they perceived , his pleasure was , that it should be taken out of the Creed , and so every one left to his liberty . His answer is , So it is certainly determined by me , and I would perswade you by all means to assent to it : And , to manifest this to be his constant judgment , he caused the Constantinopolitan Creed , without the Addition of Filioque to be inscribed in a greater silver Tablet , and placed publickly in the Church , to be read of all , as appears by the testimony of Photius , and Peter Lombard , that so all , both Greeks and Latins , might see , that nothing was added to the Creed . Had not this now been a strange action of his , if this Addition had been so long before in the time of Damasus ? Nothing then can be more evident , than that in this Leo's time , no such Addition was made to the Creed : Therefore , it seems most probable , which the famous Antoninus delivers , that this Addition was made by Pope Nicolaus 1. For , when he relates he causes , why Photius excommunicated him , he mentions that in the first place , That he had made an Addition to the Creed , by making the Spirit to proceed from the Son ; and therefore had fallen under the sentence of the third Oecumenical Council , which prohibited such Additions to be made . To which P. Pithaeus subscribes likewise , and Petavius seems not to dissent ; the only thing which is pretended against it , is , that Andreas Colossensis in the Council at Ferrara , saith , That though Photius was a known and bitter enemy of the Latin Church , yet he never objected this Addition against Nicolaus or Adrian ; but how strangely overseen Andreas was in these words , sufficiently appears by Photius his Encyclical Epistle , wherein he doth in terms object this against the Latins , as appears by the words already produced . So that although you would willingly have set this Addition far enough off from the Schism , yet you see how improbable a fiction you produce for it ; and withall , you see , that this Addition , by the consent of your own most learned and impartial Writers , falls just upon the time when the Schism broke out , viz. in the time of Nicolaus and Photius ; and therefore now judge you , whether these words were so long added before the Schism , that they could give no occasion to it . 2. The next thing to be considered , is , Whether they , who added it , had power so to do ? Two things the Greeks insist on , to shew , that it was not done by sufficient authority . 1. Because all such Additions were directly prohibited by the Ephesine Council . 2. That supposing them not prohibited , yet the Pope had no power to add to the Creed , without the consent of the Eastern Churches . 1. That such Additions were severely prohibited by the Ephesine Council : the Sanction of which Council to this purpose hath been already produced , and is extant both in the Acts of the Ephesine and Florentine Councils , in which latter it is insisted on as the Foundation of the Greek's Arguments against the Addition of Filioque , by Marcus Ephesius ; and the reason he there gives of such a Sanction made by the Council at Ephesus , is , that after the Nicene Council , in several Provincial Councils , there were above thirty several Expositions made of the Nicene Creed ; upon which , the second Oecumenical Council made a further explication of it , explaining those things which belonged to the Divinity of the Spirit , and the Incarnation of Christ ; and , because they did not prohibit any Additions , the Nestorians easily depraved the Nicene Creed , inserting their own opinions into it ( as appears by the confession of Faith exhibited to the Council by Charisius ) which being read in the Council , and the Fathers thereby understanding how easily , after this rate , New Creeds might be continually made in the Church , they severely prohibited any further Additions to be made to the Creed . And therefore , although they decreed in that Council the Virgin Mary to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in opposition to Nestorius ; yet , they never offered to insert it into the Creed , although they apprehended it necessary to explain the Oeconomy of our Saviour's Incarnation . And that which much confirms the meaning of the Decree , to be the absolute prohibition of all kind of Additions to the Creed , is , the Epistle of S. Cyril of Alexandria to Johannes Antiochenus , wherein reciting this decree of the Council , he adds these words as the explication of it . We neither permit our selves or others to change one word or syllable of what is herein contained ( speaking of the Nicene Creed ) which Epistle was read and approved in the fourth Oecumenical Council . To this the Latins answered them , that which is still answered in the same case , viz. That this Article of Filioque was only a declaration , and not a prohibited Addition : But the Greeks say , this answer is unsatisfactory on these accounts . 1. Because there is no reason to say , that Decree doth not forbid the inserting Declarations into the Creed . 2. That if it did not forbid that , yet there is as little reason to say , this was a meer Declaration . 1. Because there is no reason to say , that the Council did not forbid the inserting Declarations into the Creed : For , as Bessarion well observes , it never was lawful to add new and distinct Articles of Faith , from those which are contained in Scripture , but the Church only undertook the explication and declaration of the things therein contained ; and this was only lawful . Therefore the Ancient Fathers had full liberty of explaining Articles of Faith , and using those explications , as they judged most expedient , and to place them where they thought good , so it were not in Scripture : thence they might insert them into the Creed , or elsewhere . But afterwards ( i. e. after this decree of the Ephesine Council ) this liberty was partly taken away , and partly continued . For , it never was , or will be , unlawful to explain or declare Articles of Faith ; but to insert those explications into the Creed , is now unlawful , because forbidden by the decree of a General Council . For , saith he , the Fathers of the third Council , observing what great inconveniencies had followed in the Church , upon the inlargement of Creeds , and that no injury could at all come by the prohibition of any further Additions to be inserted ( for by that means they should only be bound to believe no more than what those Holy Fathers believed ; and who dare charge their Faith with imperfection ) and they did therefore wisely forbid all other expositions of Faith to be inserted into the Creed , as he there at large proves . And in the progress of that discourse , takes off that which Bellarmin looked on as the only satisfactory answer , viz. That the prohibition concerned only private persons ; For , saith he , It cannot be conceived , that the Council should take care about the Declarations of the Creed , made by particular persons ( whereas it alwaies was , and is lawful for such to declare their Faith more particularly , as appears by the Creed of Charisius , received in this Council ) but this they looked after , that the Creed , which was commonly received in the Christian Churches , and into which men are baptized , should receive no alteration at all . And to shew what their meaning was , though their Council was purposely assembled against Nestorius , yet they would not insert 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into the Creed . And the same decree was observed in the 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. Councils ; which , by their actions , did declare this to be the meaning of the Ephesine Council , that no Declarations whatsoever , should hereafter be inserted into the Creed . For , if they were meer Declarations , there was much less necessity of inferting them into the Creed , which was supposed to be a Systeme of the necessary Articles of Faith. 2. There was as little reason to say , that this Article was a meer Declaration . For , the Latins pretended , that the Article of Filioque , was only a further explication of that ex Patre . For , if so , then whosoever doth believe the Procession from the Father , doth believe all that is necessary to be believed : And therefore certainly it can be no Heresie not to believe the Procession from the Son , because that is only supposed to be a Declaration of that from the Father . And since you are so ready to charge the Greek Church with Heresie , I pray tell us whether this Article be a Declaration or not : If not , then the Latins were all deceived , who pleaded the lawfulness of inserting Filioque on that account ; and consequently it must be a prohibited Addition : If it be , then shew us what Heresie lyes in not acknowledging a meer explication , when all that is supposed necessary is believed in the substance of the Article . Moreover , Bessarion rightly distinguisheth between an explication , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and therefore grants , that the Filioque might be said to be an explication of something contained in the Creed , but not out of any thing contained in the Creed ; and therefore the Medium being extrinsecal , it could not be said to be a meer Declaration . For , there can be no necessary Argument drawn from the Procession from the Father , to inferr the Procession from the Son ; but it must be proved from some extrinsecal distinct Argument . 2. Suppose this to be no prohibited Addition , yet what right had the Pope and his Council , without the consent of the Eastern Churches , to make this Addition to the Creed ? For , the Greeks said , whatever authority the Church of Rome had , it received by the Canons , and its authority was therefore less then that of an Oecumenical Council , wherefore it could not justly repeal , or act contrary to the decree of a General Council , as it did apparently in this case . By which means , the Latins were driven off from those which they looked on as slighter velitations , and took Sanctuary in the Plenitude of the Pope's Power , that therefore no Council could prescribe to him ; there could be no necessity of his calling the Eastern Churches to debate this Addition , for he could do it of himself , by virtue of his own authority in and over the Church . Here Anselm and Bonaventure think to secure themselves , and hither they are all driven at last . So that we plainly see , whatever else is pretended , the Pope's usurped Power was that which truly gave occasion to the Schism : For , it was not the Latins believing the Procession from the Son , which made the separation between the Eastern and Western Churches , but the Pope's pretending a Power to impose an Article of Faith in the Creed against the decree of a former , and without the consent of a present Oecumenical Council . If you pretend , that there hath been since an Oecumenical Council at Florence , which hath declared it ; by that very answer you justifie the Greeks before that Council , and so lay the guilt of the Schism wholly on the Pope , who did insert and impose this Article , before an Oecumenical Council . Thus still it appears , the cause of the Schism began at Rome ; and by the same Argument with which you charge them with Heresie , viz. the Council at Florence , you vindicate the Greek Church from Schism , in all the actions of it before that Council . And this might suffice to shew , that it was not the levity , vanity , or ambition of the Greeks , which gave the great occasion of the Schism , but the Pride , Incroachments , and Vsurpations of the Church of Rome , as might largely be manifested from the history of those times , when the Schism began . The rise of which ought to be derived from the times of the Constantinopolitan , and Chalcedon Councils ; the second and fourth Oecumenical . For , the Canons of those Councils decreeing equal Priviledges to Constantinople , with those of Rome , made the Popes have a continual jealousie upon the Greek Church , and watch all opportunities to disgrace it , and infringe the liberties of it . Thence came the rage of Leo against Anatolius the Patriarch of Constantinople , in the time of Martianus ; thence the feud between Simplicius and Felix 3. of Rome , and Acacius of Constantinople , for defending the Priviledges of his See , in opposition to the Pope's ; insomuch that Felix fairly excommunicates him , because he would not submit to the Pope's tryal in the case of the Patriarch of Alexandria ; which continued so long , that Euphemius , who succeeded Acacius , though he excommunited Petrus Moggus of Alexandria , yet could not be received into the Communion of the Roman Church by Felix , because he would not expunge the name of Acacius out of the Diptychs of the Church ; and afterwards Gelasius refused it on the same grounds ; which Euphemius still denying to do , the Schism continued . And , although afterwards the Emperour Anastasius , and the Greek Church , desired the making up of this difference ; yet no other terms of communion would be accepted by Hormisdas , without the expunging the name of Acacius . So implacably were they bent against the very memory of Acacius , for defending the Priviledge of his See , that they would rather continue that lamentable Schism , than not avenge themselves upon him ; and consequently , make all future Patriarchs fearful of opposing the Pope's Authority . If we look yet further , we shall still find the ambition of the Popes to have caused all the disturbance in the Greek Churches , although some of the Patriarchs of Constantinople cannot be excused from the same faults . In the time of the second Council at Nice , Pope Adrian not only contends for the enlargement of his Jurisdiction , but threatens to pronounce them Hereticks , who did not consent to it , which makes Petrus de Marcâ say , That he supposeth [ that ] the first time ever any were charged with Heresie on such an account . The same pretence we find still in all the Schisms which after happened , as that in the time of Photius , that afterward , in the time of Michael Cerularius , and in the successive ages , still the terms of communion were , Submission to the Church of Rome , and acknowledgledging the supremacy of that See , which the Greeks did then , and do still constantly deny ; so that it was not the Greeks Levity , but the Romanists ambition and usurpation which gave occasion to that fearful Schism . But for all this , It must still be lawful for your Church to add , and Anathematize too : which his Lordship thought a little unreasonable , but it seems you do not : For , say you , The Church did rightly Anathematize all such denyers ; why so ? Because the meaning of the Latin Church being understood by the Addition of Filioque , and that whosoever denyed , must be supposed to deny the Procession , then it became Heresie to deny it , and the Church did rightly Anathematize all such denyers . So you say indeed ; but , you would do well 1. To shew , that the understanding the meaning of the Latin Church , is sufficient to make the denyers of what she affirms , to be Hereticks . 2. How any one that denies the Filioque , must be supposed to deny the Procession , if you mean the Procession à Filio , you speak very wisely , but prove nothing ; for some might grant the Procession , and yet deny the lawfulness of your Churches adding to the Creed . 3. All this while we are to seek how the Latin Church can make any thing to be a Heresie , which was not so before . And therefore if your Anathema's have no better grounds , the Greeks need not much fear the effects of them . That your Church on any occasion is apt enough to speak loud words , we may very easily believe , but whether she had just cause to speak so big in this cause , is the thing in question , and we have already manifested the contrary . His Lordship sayes , It ought to be no easie thing , to condemn a man of Heresie in foundation of Faith ; much less a Church ; least of all , so ample and large a Church as the Greek , especially so as to make them no Church . Heaven Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes , when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his own Girdle . To this you answer ; Neither is the Roman-Catholick Church justly accusable of cruelty ( though the Bishop taxes her of it ) because she is quick and sharp against those that fall into Heresie . But , if she hath power to pronounce whom she please Hereticks , and on what account she please ( as Hadrian I. in case of his Patrimony ) and then it be commendable in her to deal with them as Hereticks , it must needs be dangerous opposing her in any thing , for such who dread her Anathema's . But his Lordship was not speaking of what was to be done , in case of notorious Heresie , but what tenderness ought to be used in condemning men for Heresie ; and much more in condemning whole Churches for it , on such slender accounts as you do the Greek Church . You should shew , When S. Peter , or any of the Apostles did exclude Churches from communion , for denying such Articles as that you charge the Greek Church with . And it would be worth your enquiry , why those in the Corinthian Church , who at least questioned the Resurrection ; those in the Galatian and other Churches , who asserted the Necessity of the Ceremonial Law under the Gospel , both which errours are by the Apostle said to be of so dangerous a nature ; are not Anathematized presently by the Apostle , and thrown out of the Church , at least , to prevent the infection of other Christians , if not for the good of the Libertine Hereticks , as you speak . Your mentioning S. Peters proceeding with Ananias and Sapphira , must be acknowledged a very fit resemblance for your Churches dealing with Hereticks ; only they whom you are pleased to account Hereticks , have cause to rejoyce , that since your Churches good will is so much discovered , she hath not the same miraculous Power : For , then she would be sure to have few left to oppose her . But do you really think , Anania's and Sapphira's fault was no greater than that of the Greek Church , that you produce this instance ? and , do you think the Church enjoyes still the same power over offenders , which S. Peter then had ? If not , to what purpose do you mention such things here ; unless to let us see , that it is want of some thing else besides will , which makes you suffer any whom you call Hereticks to live . That S. Paul chastised his untoward Children , indeed you tell us , from 1 Cor , 5.5 . 1 Tim. 1.20 . but if you bring this to any purpose , you must make the Greeks Errour , as bad as Incest , or a denying the Faith ; and when you have done so , you may hear of a further answer . On what account your Church punisheth Delinquents , will be then necessary to be shewed , when you have a little further cleared what Power your Church hath to make Delinquents in such cases as you condemn the Greek Church for . But , as long as your Church is Accuser , Witness , and Judge too , you must never expect that your Anathema's will be accounted any other than bruta fulmina , noise and no more . CHAP. 2. Of Fundamentals in General . The Popish Tenet concerning Fundamentals , a meer step to the Roman Greatness . The Question about Fundamentals stated . An enquiry into the nature of them . What are Fundamentals , in order to particular persons ; and what to be owned as such , in order to Ecclesiastical Communion . The Prudence and Moderation of the Church of England , in defining Articles of Faith. What judged Fundamental by the Catholick Church . No new Articles of Faith can become necessary . The Churches Power in propounding matters of Faith , examined . What is a sufficient Proposition . Of the Athanasian Creed , and its being owned by the Church of England . In what sense the Articles of it are necessary to Salvation . Of the distinction of the material and formal object of Faith , as to Fundamentals . His Lordship's integrity , and T. C ' s . forgery , in the testimony of Scotus . Of Heresie , and how far the Church may declare matters of Faith. The testimony of S. Augustine vindicated . THe Greek Church appearing not guilty of Heresie , by any evidence of Scripture , Reason , or the Consent of the Primitive Church , nothing is left to make good the charge , but that the Church of Rome hath defin'd it to be so ; which Pretence , at first view , carrying the greatest partiality , and unreasonableness in it , great care is taken , that the partiality be not discovered , by not openly mentioning the Church of Rome , but the Church in General ( as though it were impossible to conceive any other Church but that at Rome ) and for the unreasonableness of it , it must be confidently asserted , That all Points defin'd by the Church are Fundamental : So to be sure the Greek Church will never escape the charge of Heresie . For this end , Mr. Fisher in the Conference acknowledgeth , that when his Lordship had denyed the errour of the Greek Church to be Fundamental , he was forced to repeat what he had formerly brought against Dr. White , concerning Points Fundamental . The reason of which was , that , easily perceiving that it was impossible to stand their ground in their charge on the Greek Church upon other terms , he is forced to take Sanctuary in the Churches Definition ; and if that will not make it good , there is nothing else remaining to do it . And this is the cause of the following Dispute concerning Fundamentals ; wheren the main thing undertaken , is , the proof , that the formal reason of Fundamentals , is to be taken from the Definition of the present Church ; but , as this must be confessed to be the main Fundamental of the Church of Rome , ( for which yet the thing being manifest , no Definition of that Church is necessary ; ) so withall , I doubt not , but it will be made evident in the progress of this discourse , that never was there any pretence more partial , absurd , and tyrannical than this is . Which his Lordship takes notice of in these words , which deserve a repetition ; It was not the least means by which Rome grew to her Greatness , to blast every opposer she had with the name of Heretick or Schismatick ; for this served to shrivel the credit of the persons . And the persons once brought into Contempt and Ignominy , all the good they desired in the Church , fell to dust , for want of creditable persons to back and support it . To make this proceeding good , in these latter years , this course , it seems , was taken . The School that must maintain ( and so they do ) that all Points defin'd by the Church , are thereby Fundamental , necessary to be believed , of the substance of Faith ; and that , though it be determined quite extra Scripturam . And then leave the wise and active Heads to take order , that there be strength enough ready to determine what is fittest for them . To this you answer , with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ! You call it a Squib , a Fancy , a weak Discourse , one of the Bishop's Railleries , and what not . It seems it pinched you hard , you cry out so Tragically . But it is very certain , you are more impatient to have your Politicks , than your Errours discovered ; and if you have any Curses more dreadful than others , they are sure to light on those who discover the intrigues of your Designs . For if once men come to discern how much more of Artifice and cunning , than of Truth and Religion , there is in the managing the Interest of your Church , they would not easily think , the way to Heaven can lye among so many foldings of the old Serpent : And this is not to think as you tragically speak , That all the world is turn'd mad or Heathen : for , thanks be to God , as Catholique as your Church is , it must be a huge Catachresis to take it for all the world : neither do we think your Church mad , but very wise and Politick in these pretences ; and that still you are resolved to shew , that though other Churches may be more Children of Light than yours ( ignorance being so much in favour with you ) yet yours is Wiser in its Generation . But how the pretending of your Church to Infallibility , and power to define Fundamentals , should make us imagine all the world Heathen , is not easie to conceive , unless you are conscious to your self , that such pretences as these are , are the way to make it so . But we must see still how your Cothurnus fits you . No truth left upon earth , but all become Juglers ? See what it is to be true Catholiques , that if they juggle , all the world must do so too ; as though totus mundus exercet histrioniam , were Latin for the Infallibility of the Church of Rome . But have you indeed such a Monopoly of Truth , that if your party prove Juglers , there will be no truth left upon earth ? if you had said , none unsophisticated , yet even that had been a great Truth left upon earth still . But I shall cut you short in what follows of your Declamation , by telling you , that though your Harangue were ten times longer than it is , and your exclamations louder , and your Authorities better than of your Prelates , Miracles , Doctors , Heads of Schools , austere and religious persons ( in English Monks and Friers ) yet all these would not one jot perswade us contrary to common sense , and the large experience of the world , That Religion is not made by you an Instrument to advance the Pope's Ambition , and that the Church is but a more plausible name , whereby to maintain the Court of Rome . And we need not go from our present subject , for a proof of it . I will not charge this upon all persons of your Communion , for all of them do not believe the State-Principles of your Church ; and others are kept , as much as may be , from all waies of discovering the great Designs of it ; and therefore there may be so much innocency and simplicity in some , as may keep them from prostituting their Salvation to the Pope's Greatness : but this is no plea on behalf of those who have the managery of those Designs ; who if they do not see what things are fittest for the Pope's temporal ends , will not long be thought fit for their employment . But , is it not palpable how much you endeavour to shrivel Christianity into a Party and Faction , excluding all others that are not of your party out of the Church , and consequently from hopes of salvation , though never so pious and conscientious ? Are not the far greatest part of the opinions you contend for , against all the rest of the Christian world , such as are manifestly subservient to temporal ends ? And are not such more zealously disputed for , than the plain Articles of Faith , and the indispensable precepts of the Christian Religion ? Have you not found out all the Artifices imaginable , to enervate the force of Christian Piety , by your Doctrines about Repentance , Prayer , Indulgences , Probability , Purgatory , and such like ? And instead of those rational acts of Devotion , which our Religion requires from us , have made choice of such fond , ludicrous , unintelligible pieces of Devotion ( by the most who are concerned in them ) as though you were resolved to see how much it was possible to debauch Christianity , and make it contemptible in the world ? Add to these the Arts you have to violate Humane Societies , by dispensing with oaths , breaking Faith , dissolving Obedience to Civil Authority , when it opposeth your designs ; and is it possible then for persons not blind-folded with the grossest sort of implicit Faith , to judge otherwise , but the design of your Chvrch is to determine , not what is truest , but what is fittest for your ends ? And , although you scurrilously call his Lordship's discourse , stuff that might serve sometimes for Pulpit-babble , to deceive the giddy multitude , and cast a mist before their eyes ; yet you see , he was not afraid of what any adversary could say against it , by writing it in a Polemical Discourse , in which we could be glad to see some of those famous Legends , and Seraphical Notions , which your Pulpit-entertainments consist so much of , especially where you are out of the reach of Hereticks , and then we should judge Which looks more like babling , and deceiving the giddy multitude . But , to let us see what men of reach and Politicians you are , you have found out a strange Fetch in his Lordships discourse , viz. that all this , is , That they might not see the impurity of their own English-Protestant Church , even in its first rise under Henry the eighth , and the people-cheating Policies it was beholding to for its restauration under Queen Elizabeth , as may be seen in History . History is a large wood to bid us seek for these cheating Policies in ; and if you had any other design , but meerly to shew your self a Politician in this , that you can fortitèr calumniari , use your tongue manfully when reproaches are useful ; you would have produced some evidence so clear of them , as his Lordship here insists on in reference to your Church . But , as long as you converse only in Generals , you will give us leave to think who those are which use to do so , viz. such grand Politicians as your self . For the Particulars of our Reformation , we shall have occasion to vindicate them in another place , and therein shall easily manifest what an Itch you had to calumniate here , though you were sure to smart for it afterwards . That which you call weakness of judgement , or want of Charity in his Lordship , will be found to lye at another door , by our making it appear , that what you call a groundless and impossible slander , is a real and undoubted truth . But when you tell us , That such Railleries do not become one that would be esteemed a grave Doctor of the English Church , an alterius orbis Patriarcha , as the antient Primates of England have been call'd : I know not whether you discover more judgment or reading in it ; your judgement in calling that an unbecoming Raillery , which is a great and seasonable Truth ; your reading , in mistaking Patriarcha for Papa , or else you were willing to dissemble it , because then by the advantage of his title , he might be fitter to discover the Artifices and Designs of his Fellow-Pope . The laying open of which is certainly vastly different from sporting with all that can be serious on earth ( man's salvation ) as you most injuriously calumniate his Lordship in your next words , in affirming so of him , when his only design was , to clear the way to mans salvation , by discovering the gins and traps which are laid in the way of silly men , by the pernicious subtilty of those of your party . The way being thus cleared , we come to the main question , viz. Whether all Points , defined by the Church , are Fundamental ; and here , because you tell us , His Lordship is like one that provides for a retreat or a subterfuge , by cutting out a number of ambiguous distinctions ; you give us fair hopes what clear proceedings we may expect from you , who abhorr as much the clear stating of a question , as Foxes do running in beaten Roads . But , as well as you love them , you must be drawn out of your Holes , which will be much for the advantage of Truth , though very little for yours . To come therefore close to the business , that you may not think I seek subterfuges , or retreats , I shall wave all other acceptions of Fundamentals , and take the Question in your own sense , that is , for Points necessary to Salvation . The Question then in controversie between us , is this ▪ Whether the ground or reason why any thing is fundamental or necessary to salvation , be , because it is defined by the Church to be so , and consequently , Whether all Points , defined by the Church , be not fundamental or necessary to Salvation ? For the occasion of this Controversie was from the Greek Church , whether her errour , as to the Procession from the Son , be fundamental or no , i. e. such as excludes her from being a Church , and consequently from Salvation . The ground of your affirmation , is , because the Church hath defined it to be so ; so that the ground and reason why any thing is supposed fundamental or necessary to Salvation , must be the Definition of the Church : But for our better understanding your meaning , you distinguish of two waies , whereby Points may be necessary to Salvation ; the one absolutely , by reason of the matter they contain ; which , say you , is so fundamentally necessary in it self , that not only the disbelief of it , when propounded by the Church , but the meer want of an express knowledge , and belief of it , will hinder Salvation ; and those are such Points , without the express belief whereof , no man can be saved , which Divines call necessary necessitate medii ; others of this kind they call necessary necessitate praecepti , which all men are commanded to seek after , and expresly believe ; so that a culpable Ignorance of them hinders Salvation , although some may be saved with invincible Ignorance of them . And all these are absolutely necessary to be expresly believed , either necessitate praecepti , or medii , in regard of the matter which they contain . But the rest of the Points of Faith are necessary to be believed necessitate praecepti , only conditionally , that is , to all such to whom they are sufficiently propounded , as defined by the Church : which necessity proceeds not precisely from the material object , or matter contained in them ; but from the formal object of Divine Authority , declared to Christians by the Churches Definition . Whether therefore the Points in question be necessary in the first manner or no , by reason of their precise matter ; yet if they be necessary , by reason of the Divine Authority , or Formal ▪ object of Divine Revelation , sufficiently declared and propounded to us , they will be Points Fundamental , that is , necessary to Salvation to be believed , as we have shewed Fundamental must here be taken . These words of yours containing the full state of the question in your own terms , and being the substance of all you say on this Controversie , I have recited at large ; that you may not complain , your meaning is mistaken in them . You assert then , that besides that necessity which ariseth from the matter of things to be believed , and from th● absolute Command of God ; there is another necessity conditionally upon the Churches Definition , but , supposing that Definition , the thing so propounded becomes as necessary to Salvation , as what is necessary from the matter ; for in all hypothetical propositions , the supposition being in act , the matter becomes necessary . For , unless you speak of such a necessity , as becomes as universally obligatory , on supposition of the Churches Definition , as that which ariseth from the matter , or absolute command ; you are guilty of the greatest tergiversation , and perverting the state of the Question . For , otherwise that cannot be said to be fundamental or necessary to Salvation , in the sense of this Question , which is not generally necessary to Salvation to all Christians . For no man was ever so silly , as to imagine , that the Question of Fundamentals , with a respect to whole Churches , as it is here taken , can be understood in any other sense , than as the matter , call'd Fundamental or Necessary , must be equally fundamental and necessary to all persons . And that this must be your meaning , appears by the rise of the Controversie , which concerns the whole Greek Church , which you exclude from being a Church , because she erres fundamentally , and that she errres fundamentally , because the Church hath defined it to be an errour . So that what the Church determines as matter of Faith , is as necessary to be believed in order to Salvation , as that which is necessary from the matter , or from an absolute Command . For , otherwise the Greek Church might not be in a Fundamental Errour , notwithstanding the Churches Definition : the ground of this Errour being Fundamental , not being derived from the matter , or absolute Command , but from the Churches Definition . If therefore the denial of what the Church defines , doth exclude from Salvation ; the necessity and obligation must be equal to that which ariseth from the matter to be believed . And if the Church defines any particulars to be explicitly believed as necessary to Salvation , not only the not disbelieving them , but the not explicit believing them , will be as destructive to Salvation , as if the matter of the things themselves were necessary ; or that it were absolutely commanded ; for in those cases you say , the not explicit believing is that which damns , and so on your principles it will do here , when the explicit belief is the thing defined by the Church . This will be more plain by an Instance . It is notoriously known , that at the shutting up of the Council of Trent , a Confession of Faith was drawn up , and confirmed by the Bull of Pius 4. A. D. 1564. and that , ut unius & ejusdem fidei professio uniformitèr ab omnibus exhibeatur , That the Profession of one and the same Faith , may be made known to all , and declared uniformally by all . In which Confession , after the enumeration of the Articles contained in the Ancient Creed ; there are many others added concerning Traditions , Seven Sacraments , the Decrees of the Council of Trent , as to Original sin and Justification ; The Sacrifice of the Mass , Transubstantiation , Communion in one kind , Purgatory , Invocation of Saints , Worship of Images , Indulgences , the Pope's Supremacy , &c. All which are required to be believed with an equal assent to the former , as absolutely necessary to Salvation , and necessary Conditions of Catholick Communion , For thus it ends ; Hanc veram Catholicam Fidem , extra quam nemo salvus esse potest , quam in praesenti sponte profiteor , & veraciter teneo , eandem integram & inviolatam usque ad extremum vitae spiritum , &c. This true Catholick Faith , without which none can be saved , which at present I profess , and truly hold , and will do whole and undefiled to my lives end , &c. Judge you now , whether an equal explicit Faith be not here required to the Definitions of the Church , as to the Articles of the Creed ; and if so , there must be an equal necessity , in order to Salvation , of believing both of them , it being here so expresly declared , that these Definitions are Integral Parts of that Catholick Faith , without which there is no Salvation . And what could be more said of those things , whose matter or absolute precept do make them necessary ? This Confession of Faith therefore , gives us the truest state of the present Question , in these particulars . 1. That the Definitions of the Church are to be believed , to be as necessary to Salvation , as the Articles of the Ancient Creed , without the belief of which no Salvation is to be expected . 2. That the explicit Belief of these Definitions as necessary to Salvation ▪ may be required in order to Catholick Communion , and that they are to be believed of all as such , because they are defined by the Church . So that the Question is not , What is so required by the Churches Definition , declared and propounded to us , that it ought not to be dis-believed without mortal and damnable sin , which unrepented destroyes Salvation , as you stated it ; for this seems only to respect the Faith of particular persons , who are to believe according as the Proposition may be judged sufficient : but the true state of the Question , is , Whether any Definitions of the Church may be believed as Necessary Articles of Faith ; and whether they may be imposed on others to be believed as such , so that they may be excluded Catholick Communion if they do not . For this is really the true state of the Question , between your Church , and ours , ever since the Council of Trent ; and as to it thus stated ( as it ought to be ) I do most readily joyn issue with you . For the clearing of which important Question , on which the main cause of our being separated from your Communion depends , these three things will be necessary to be exactly discussed . 1. What the Grounds are on which any thing doth become necessary to Salvation ? 2. Whether any thing , whose matter is not necessary , and is not required by an absolute Command , can by any means whatsoever afterwards become necessary ? 3. Whether the Church hath power by any Proposition or Definition to make any thing become necessary to Salvation , and to be believed as such , which was not so before ? These three I suppose you cannot deny but will take in all that is considerable in this Controversie . Which I shall with the more care examine , because nothing tends more to the peace of the Christian World , than a through and clear discussion of it ; and nothing causeth more the Schisms and Divisions of it , than the want of a right and due conception of it . 1. What the Grounds are on which any thing doth become necessary to Salvation ? For our better understanding of which , we must consider two things . 1. What things are necessary to the Salvation of men as such , or considered in their single and private capacities ? 2. What things are necessary to be owned in order to Salvation , by Christian Societies , or as the bonds and conditions of Ecclesiastical Communion ? The want of understanding this distinction of the necessity of things , hath caused most of the perplexities and confusion in this Controversie of Fundamentals . 1. What those things are which are necessary to the Salvation of particular persons ? But that we make all as clear as possible , in a matter of so great intricacy , two things again must be inquired into . 1. What the Ground is , why any thing becomes necessary to be believed in order to Salvation ? 2. What the Measure and Extent is of those things which are to be believed by particular persons as necessary to Salvation ? 1. What the Ground or Foundation is , on which things become necessary to be believed by particular persons ? And that which is the true ground of the necessity , why any thing is to be believed , is the proper ratio of a Fundamental Article . For , I suppose it a much clearer notion of Fundamentals , to understand them , not as Principles , from whence Deductions may be drawn of Theological Truths ; but in regard of that immediate respect which they have to mens Salvation . Those things therefore which are necessary to be explicitly believed by particular persons , are Fundamentals in order to their Salvation . Now all belief in this case supposing Divine Revelation , nothing can be imagined to be necessary to be believed , but what may be certainly known to be of Divine Revelation . But when we consider , that besides the general reason of believing what God hath revealed ; we must either suppose , that all things are of equal necessity , which are revealed in order to the general end of this Revelation ; or , that some things therein contained , are expresly necessary to the end , and other things to be believed on the general account of Faith , so far as they are known to be of Divine Revelation . Now from hence ariseth a twofold necessity of things to be believed ; the first more general and large , the second more particular and absolute . The first depends upon the formal reason of Faith ; the second , on the particular end of Divine Revelation . That which depends on the formal reason of that Assent we call Faith , is that which supposeth Divine Veracity , or the impossibility of Gods deceiving us in any thing revealed by Him ; now this extends to all things whatsoever , which are supposed by men to be of Divine Revelation . For , though men may mistake in the matter , yet the reason of Assent holding , under that mistake , they are bound necessarily to believe whatever is supposed by them to be Divine Revelation . Here lyes no difficulty in the ground of Faith , but all the care is to be used in the search into the matters which are to be believed on the account of this Revelation . But here we are to consider , that the only thing which is in general and absolutely necessary to Salvation , is , the general act of Faith , viz. Believing whatever God reveals to be true , else God's Veracity would be call'd in question ; but particular objects cannot be said , on this account , to be absolutely and universally necessary , but only so far as there are sufficient convictions , that those particulars are of Divine Revelation . And , the more general and extensive the means of conviction are , the more large and universal is the obligation to Faith. As , that the Scriptures contain in them the Word of God , is a matter of more universal obligation , than particular things therein revealed ; because the belief of the one depends upon the acknowledgement of the other . And withall , supposing it believed , that the matters contained in Scripture are of Divine Revelation ; yet all things are not equally clear to all capacities , that they are therein contained . Which is a sufficient ground for us , to say , It was not God's intention , that all things contained in his Word , should be believed with the same degree of necessity by all persons . And therefore , though the general reason of Faith depends on Gods Veracity , yet the particular obligation to the belief of particular things , as revealed by God , depends on the means , whereby we may be assured , that such things are revealed by him : which means admitting of so great Variety , as to the circumstances and capacities of particular persons , there can be no general Rule set down what things are necessary to be believed by all particular persons . For , those who have greater means of knowledge , a larger capacity , and clearer proposal , are bound to believe more things explicitly , than those who want all these , or have a lower degree of them . In which case , it is an unreasonable thing to say , that such a one , who dis-believes any thing propounded to him as a matter of Faith , doth presently call in question God's Veracity ; for he may as firmly believe that as any in general , and yet may have ground to question whether God's Veracity be at all concerned in that which is propounded to him as a matter of Faith ; because he sees no reason to believe that this was ever revealed by God. And , by this , a clear answer is given to that Question , which you propose : Whether all those Truths which are sufficiently proposed to any Christian , as defined by the Church for matter of Faith , can be dis-believed by such a Christian , without mortal and damnable sin , which unrepented destroyes Salvation ? To which the answer is easie upon the grounds here assigned : for this question concerning particular persons , and particular objects of Faith , the resolution of it doth depend upon the sufficiency of the means , to convince such a person , that whatever is propounded as Defined by the Church for a matter of Faith , is certainly and truly so . For to instance in any one of those new Articles of Faith , Transubstantiation , or the Pope's Supremacy , &c. you tell me , These are necessary to be believed , or at least cannot be dis-believed without sin ( which is all one in this case , supposing clear conviction , for then what cannot be dis-believed without sin , must be explicitly believed . ) I desire to know the grounds why they may not ? you tell me , These are truths which are sufficiently proposed to me , as defined by the Church for matters of Faith. I deny the Churches Proposition to be sufficient to convince me , that these are matters of Faith ; for I understand not what Power your Church hath to define any thing for matter of Faith : if I granted that , I must understand what you mean by sufficient Proposition ; whether that your Church hath so defined them , or that she hath power so to define them ; and because I am heartily willing to believe any thing that I have reason to believe is a matter of Faith ; certainly it can be no sin in me , not to believe that which I can see no ground at all to believe , either in it self , or because of your Churches Definition . And all this while , I have as high thoughts of God's Veracity , as you can have , and it may be higher ; because I interest it not in the false and contradictory Definitions of your Church . If therefore you will prove it to be a damnable sin not to believe whatever is proposed by your Church for a matter of Faith , you must first prove , that there is as universal an obligation to believe whatever is sufficiently proposed as defined by the Church for matter of Faith , as there is to assent to whatever God reveals as true . And when you have done this , I will give you leave to state the Question as you do : for then you would offer something to the proof of it , which now you do not . The substance then of what concerns the obligation to Faith , as to particular objects , on the account of Diuine Revelation , lyes in the means of conviction concerning those particular objects being divinely revealed , which being various , the degrees of Assent must be various too : but yet so , that the more men are negligent of the means of conviction , the more culpable their unbelief is ; but where men use all moral diligence to understand what is revealed , and what not , if they cannot be convinced , that some particular thing is of Divine Revelation ; it is hard to prove them guilty of mortal and damnable sin , without first proving , that God absolutely requires from men an Assent to that , which it is impossible in their Circumstances they should believe . And this is the first sort of things necessary to be believed by particular persons ; such as are believed on the general account of God's Veracity in revealing them . But because there must be a more particular reason assigned of any such intention in God to reveal his mind to the world , viz. Some peculiar end which he had in it ; therefore a further degree of the necessity of things to be believed , must be enquired after , viz. such as have an immediate and necessary respect to the prosecution of that end . Now the only end assignable of that great expression of Divine Goodness , in declaring to man the Will of God , is the Eternal Welfare and Happiness of mankind , for nothing else can be imagined suitable and proportionable to the Wisdom and Goodness of God ; besides that , this is expresly mentioned in Scripture as God's great end in it . Now this being the great end of Divine Revelation , the necessity of things to be believed absolutely and in themselves , must be taken from the reference or respect which they have to the attainment of this end . And , although the distinction be commonly received , of necessity of the means , and of the command , as importing a different kind of necessity , yet in the sense I here take Necessity in , the members of that distinction do to me seem coincident . For I cannot see any reason to believe that God should make the belief of any thing necessary , by an absolute Command , but what hath an immediate tendency by way of means , for the attainment of this end : For otherwise , that which is call'd the Necessity of Precept , falls under the former degree of Necessity , viz. That which is to be believed on the general account of Divine Revelation . And , although these things which are necessary , as means , are to be believed on the same formal reason of Faith ; yet since God had a different end in the Revelation of these from the other , therefore there is a necessity of putting a difference between them . For , supposing God to have such a design to bring the souls of men to Happiness ; in order to this end , some means must be necessary , and these must consequently be revealed to men , because they are so necessary in order to such an end : now it is apparent , All things contained in Scripture , are not of that nature ; some being at so great a remove from this end , that the only reason of believing them , is , because they are contained in that Book , which we have the greatest reason to believe , contains nothing false in it . Now the only way whereby we may judge of the nature of these things , is , from the consideration of what is made the most necessary condition in order to happiness ; and the way by which we may come to it . And nothing being more evident , than that the Gospel contains in it a Covenant of Grace , or the conditions on which our Salvation depends ; whatever is necessary in order to our performance of the conditions required of us , must be necessary to be believed by all . The Gospel therefore tendring Happiness upon the conditions of our believing in Christ , and walking in him ; these two things are indispensably necessary to Salvation ( where the Gospel is known , for we have no reason to enquire into the method of God's proceeding with others ) An hearty Assent to the Doctrine of Christ , and A conscientious walking according to the Precepts of it . But to undertake to define what parts of that Doctrine are necessary to Salvation , and what not , seems to me wholly unnecessary ; because the Assent to the Doctrine of Christ , as revealed from God , must necessarily carry in it so much as is sufficient in order to Salvation . Whatever therefore is necessary to a Spiritual Life , is necessary absolutely to Salvation , and no more ; but what , and how much that is , must be gathered by every one as to himself from Scripture ; but is impossible to be defined by others , as to all persons . But in all Faith towards God , and in our Lord Jesus Christ ; and repentance from dead works , are absolutely and indispensably necessary to Salvation , which imply in them , both an universal readiness of mind to believe and obey God in all things : And by this we see , what the Rule and Measure of the necessity of things to be believed is , as to particular persons ; which lyes in these things . 1. Whatever God hath revealed , is undoubtedly and infallibly true . 2. Whatever appears to me , upon sufficient enquiry , to be revealed by God , I am bound to believe it by virtue of God's Veracity . 3. All things not equally appearing to all persons to be revealed of God , the same measure of necessity cannot be extended to all persons . 4. An universal Assent to the Will of God , and universal Obedience to it , are absolutely and indispensably necessary to all persons , to whom God's Word is revealed . Thus much may suffice concerning what is necessary to be believed by particular persons , considered as such . But this controversie never need break Christian Societies in that sense , but the great difficulty lyes in the other part of it , which is most commonly strangely confounded with the former , viz. What things are necessary to be owned , in order to Church-Societies , or Ecclesiastical Communion ? For which , we must consider , that the combination of Christian Societies , o● that which we call the Catholick Church , doth subsist upon the belief of what is necessary to Salvation . For the very notion of a Christian Church doth imply the belief of all those things , which are necessary in order to the end of Christian Religion , which is mens eternal Happiness . From whence three things must be taken notice of . 1. That the very being of a Church , doth suppose the necessity of what is required to be believed in order to Salvation . For else there could not be such a thing as a Church imagined , which is only a combination of men together , upon the belief of such a Doctrine as necessary to Salvation ; and for the performance of those acts of Worship which are suitable thereto : Therefore to assert the Church to have power to make things necessary to Salvation , is not only absurd , but destructive to the Being of that Church ▪ For when it offer'd to define any thing to be necessary , which was not so before , was it a Church or no ? If it was a Church , it believed all things necessary ; if it believed all things necessary , before it Defined ; how comes it to make more things necessary by its Definition ? But of this more afterwards . 2. Whatever Church owns those things which are antecedently necessary to the Being of a Church , cannot so long cease to be a true Church . Because it retains that which is the Foundation of the Being of the Catholick Church . Here we must distinguish those things in the Catholick Church , which give its Being , from those things which are the proper Acts of it , as the Catholick Church . As to this latter , the solemn Worship of God in the way prescribed by him , is necessary ; in order to which there must be supposed lawful Officers set in the Church , and Sacraments duly administred : but these , I say , are rather the Exercise of the Communion of the Catholick Church , than that which gives its Being , which is , the belief of that Religion whereon its Subsistence and Vnity depends ; and as long as a Church retains this , it keeps its Being , though the Integrity and Perfection of it depends upon the due exercise of all acts of Communion in it . 3. The Vnion of the Catholick Church depends upon the agreement of it , in making the Foundations of its Being , to be the grounds of its Communion . For the Vnity being intended to preserve the Being , there can be no reason given , why the bonds of Vnion should extend beyond the Foundation of its Being , which is , the owning the things necessary to the Salvation of all . From whence it necessarily follows , that whatsoever Church imposeth the belief of other things as necessary to Salvation , which were not so antecedently necessary to the Being of the Catholick Church , doth , as much as in it lyes , break the Vnity of it ; and those Churches , who desire to preserve its Vnity , are bound thereby not to have communion with it so long as it doth so . Of what great consequence these principles are to the true understanding the Distance between our Church and yours , if you see not now , you may feel afterwards . These things being premised , I come to that which is the main subject of the present Dispute , which is , What those things are which ought to be owned by all Christian-Societies as necessary to Salvation , on which the Being of the Catholick Church depends . If we can find any sure footing for the Definition of these , we shall thereby find what the necessary conditions of Ecclesiastical Communion are , and consequently where the proper cause of Schism lyes in transgressing those bounds , and what Foundations may be laid for the Peace of the Christian world . Which being of so vast importance , would require a larger discussion , than this place will admit of : but so far as is pertinent to our present subject , I shall enquire into it ; and give an account of my thoughts , in these Propositions . 1. Nothing ought to be owned as necessary to Salvation by Christian-Societies , but such things , which , by the judgement of all those Societies , are antecedently necessary to the Being of the Catholick Church . For , no reason can be assigned ( as I said before ) why the Bonds of Union should be extended beyond that which is the Churches Foundation ; neither can there any reason be given why any thing else should be judged necessary to the Churches Communion , but what all those Churches ( who do not manifestly dissent from the Catholick Church of the first Ages ) are agreed in , as necessary to be believed by all ; this will be further explained afterwards . Only I add here , when I speak of the necessary conditions of Ecclesiastical Communion , I speak of such things which must be owned as Necessary Articles of Faith , and not of any other Agreements for the Churches Peace . I deny not therefore , but that in case of great Divisions in the Christian world , and any National Churches reforming it self , that Church may declare its sense of those abuses in Articles of Religion , and require of men a Subscription to them ; but then we are to consider , that there is a great deal of difference between the owning some Propositions in order to Peace , and the believing of them as necessary Articles of Faith. And this is clearly the state of the difference between the Church of Rome , and the Church of England . The Church of Rome imposeth new Articles of Faith to be believed as necessary to Salvation ; as appears by the formerly cited Bull of Pius 4. Which Articles contain in them the Justification of those things which are most excepted against by other Churches ; and by her imposing these as the conditions of her Communion , she makes it necessary for other Churches , who would preserve the Vnity of the Catholick Church upon her true Foundations , to forbear her Communion . But the Church of England makes no Articles of Faith , but such as have the Testimony and Approbation of the whole Christian world of all ages , and are acknowledged to be such by Rome it self , and in other things she requires Subscription to them not as Articles of Faith , but as Inferiour Truths , which she expects a submission to , in order to her Peace and Tranquillity . So the late learned L. Primate of Ireland often expresseth the sense of the Church of England , as to her thirty nine Articles . Neither doth the Church of England , saith he , define any of these Questions , as necessary to be believed , either necessitate medii , or necessitate praecepti , which is much less ; but only bindeth her Sons , for Peace sake , not to oppose them . And in another place more fully . We do not suffer any man to reject the thirty nine Articles of the Church of England at his pleasure ; yet neither do we look upon them as Essentials of Saving Faith , or Legacies of Christ and his Apostles : but in a mean , as pious Opinions fitted for the preservation of Vnity ; neither do we oblige any man to believe them , but only not to contradict them . By which we see , what a vast difference there is between those things which are required by the Church of England , in order to Peace ; and those which are imposed by the Church of Rome , as part of that Faith , extra quam non est salus , without belief of which there is no Salvation . In which she hath as much violated the Vnity of the Catholick Church , as the Church of England by her Prudence and Moderation hath studied to preserve it . 2. Nothing ought to be imposed as a necessary Article of Faith to be believed by all , but what may be evidently propounded to all persons , as a thing which God did require the explicit belief of . It being impossible to make any thing appear a necessary Article of Faith , but what may not only be evidently proved to be revealed by God , but that God doth oblige all men to the belief of it in order to Salvation . And therefore none of those things , whose obligation doth depend on variety of Circumstances , ought in reason be made the Bonds of that Communion which cannot take notice of that variety as to mens conditions and capacities . There are many things in Christian Religion , which , whosoever believes the truth of it , cannot but easily discern to be necessary in order to the profession and practice of it , in most of which the common sense and reason of mankind is agreed . Not only the Existence of a Deity , the clear discovery of the Wisdom , Goodness and Power of God , with his Providence over the world , and the Immortality of Souls , being therein most evidently revealed ; but , the way and manner of the restitution of mens souls by Faith in Jesus Christ as our only Saviour , and Obedience to his Commands , is so fully laid down in the clearest terms , that no rational man , who considers the nature of Christian Religion , but must assert the profession of all these things to be necessary to all such , who own Christian Religion to be true . But there are many other things in Christian Religion , which are neither so clearly revealed in the Scriptures , nor unanimously assented to in any age of the Christian Church ; and , why any such things should be made the conditions of that Communion in the Catholick Church , whose very being depends only on necessary things , would puzzle a Philosopher to understand . As if none should be accounted Mathematicians , but such as could square circles ; and none Naturalists , but such as could demonstrate whether quantity were infinitely divisible or no : much so it is , if none should be accounted members of the Catholick Church , but such as own the truth and necessity of some at least as disputable Points , as any in Religion . Let therefore any Romanist tell me , whether the Pope's Supremacy be as clear in Scripture , as that Christ is Saviour of the world ; whether Purgatory be as plain as Eternal Life ; Transubstantiation as evident , as that the Eucharist ought to be administred ; whether Invocation of Saints be as manifest , as the Adoration of God ; the Doctrine of Indulgences , as Repentance from dead works ; and if there be so great a clearness in the Revelation of the one , and so far from it as to the other ; let them give any just account why the belief of the one is made as necessary to Salvation as the other is . Certainly , such who take in things at least so disputable as all these are , and enforce the belief of them in order to their Communion , cannot otherwise be thought but to have a design to exclude a great part of the Christian world from their Communion ; and , to do so , and then cry out of them as Schismaticks , is the most unreasonable proceedings in the world . 3. Nothing ought to be required as a necessary Article of Faith , but what hath been believed and received for such by the Catholick Church of all Ages . For , since necessary Articles of Faith are supposed to be so antecedently to the Being of the Catholick Church , since the Catholick Church doth suppose the continual acknowledgement of such things as are necessary to be believed , it is but just and reasonable to admit nothing as necessary , but what appears to have been so universally received . Thence it is , that Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent , are so much insisted on by Vincentius Lerinensis , in order to the proving any thing to be a necessary Article of Faith. But the great difficulty of this lyes in finding out what was received for a necessary Article of Faith , and what was not by the Catholick Church ; which being a subject , as necessary , as seldom spoken to , I shall not leave it untouched , although I must premise , that Rule to be much more useful in discovering what was not looked on as a necessary Article of Faith , than what was ; and therefore I begin with that first . 1. It is sufficient evidence , that was not looked on as a necessary Article of Faith , which was not admitted into the Ancient Creeds . Whether all those Declarations which were inserted in the enlargements of the Apostolical Creed , by the Councils of Nice and Constantinople , and in that Creed which goes under the name of Athanasius , were really judged by the Catholick Church of all Ages , to be necessary to Salvation , is not here my business to enquire ; but there seems to be a great deal of reason for the Negative , that what was not inserted in the Ancient Creeds , was not by them judged necessary to be believed by all Christians . I know , it is said by some of your party , That the Apostolical Creed did only contain those Articles which were necessary to be believed , in opposition to the present Heresies which were then in the Church . As though the necessity of believing in Christians , came only by an Antiperistasis of the opposition of Hereticks ; And if there had been no Hereticks to have denyed God's being the Creatour , and Christ's being the Saviour ; it had not been necessary to have believed either of them so explicitly as now we do . But when we speak of all things necessary to be believed by all ; I mean not , that all circumstances of things contained in those Creeds are necessary to be believed in order to Salvation ; but , that all those things which were judged as necessary to be believed by all , were therein inserted , will appear to any one who either considers the expressions of the Ancients concerning the Creeds then in Use ; or the primary reason why such Summaries of Faith were ever made in the Christian Church . The testimonies of the Fathers to this purpose are so well known in this subject , that it were a needless task to repeat them , who so unanimously assert the sufficiency , unalterableness and perfection of that Faith , which is contained in the Creed ; making it , the summe of all necessary Doctrines the Foundation of the Catholick Faith and of the Church , the first and sole Confession of Evangelical Doctrine . Of all which , and many more expressions to the same purpose , produced not only by our Writers , but by yours too , no tolerable sense can be made , without asserting , that whatever was judged necessary to be believed by all , by the Catholick Church of that Age they lived in , or before them , was therein contained . Besides , what account can be given why any such Summaries of Faith should at all be made either by Apostles , or Apostolical persons ; but only for that end , that necessary Articles of Faith might be reduced into such a compass , as might become portable to the weakest capacities ? If the rise of Creeds were ( as most probable it was ) from the things propounded , to the Catechumens , to be believed in order to Baptism , can we reasonably think , that any thing judged necessary to be believed , should be left out ? If the Apostolical Creed be a summary comprehension of that Form of sound Doctrine , which the Apostles delivered to all Christians at their first conversion ( as it is generally supposed ) either we must think the Apostles unfaithful in their work , or the Creed an unfaithful account of their Doctrine , or that such things which were supposed universally necessary to be believed , are therein comprehended . Which is sufficient for my purpose , that nothing ought to be looked on as a necessary Article of Faith , or was so esteemed by the Catholick Church , which is not contained in the Ancient Creeds . 2. Nothing ought to be judged a necessary Article of Faith , but , what was universally believed by the Catholick Church , to be delivered as such by Christ , or his Apostles . So that it is not the judgement , but the testimony of the Catholick Church , which must be relyed on , and that testimony only , when universal , as delivering what was once infallibly delivered by Christ , or his Apostles . From whence it follows , that any one who will undertake to make out any thing as a necessary Article of Faith , by Catholick Tradition meerly , must do these things : 1. He must make it appear to be universally embraced at all times , and in all places , by such who were members of the Catholick Church . 2. That none ever opposed it , but he was presently disowned as no member of the Catholick Church , because opposing something necessary to Salvation . 3. That it be delivered by all those Writers of the Church , who give an account of the Faith of Christians , or what was delivered by Christ and his Apostles to the Church . 4. That it was not barely looked on as necessary to be believed by such as might be convinced it was of Divine Revelation , but that it was deliver'd with a necessity of its being explicitly believed by all . 5. That what is deliver'd by the consent of the Writers of the Catholick Church , was undoubtedly the Consent of the Church of those ages . 6. That all those Writers agree not only in the Belief of the thing it self , but of the Necessity of it to all Christians . 7. That no Writers or Fathers of succeeding Ages , can be supposed to alter in the belief either of the matters believed before , or the necessity of them . 8. That no oppositions of Hereticks , or heats of Contention , could make them judge any Article so opposed , to be more necessary , than it was judged before that Contention ; or they themselves would have judged it , had it not been so opposed . 9. That when they affirm many Traditions to be Apostolical , which yet varied in several Churches , they could not affirm any Doctrine to be Apostolical , which they were not universally agreed in . 10. That when they so plainly assert the sufficiency of the Scriptures as a Rule of Faith , they did yet believe something necessary to Salvation , which was not contained therein . When you , or any one else , will undertake to make good these conditions ; I shall then begin to believe , that something may be made appear to be a necessary Article of Faith , which is not clearly revealed in Scripture , but not before : but till then , this Negative will suffice , that nothing ought to be embraced , as the judgement of the Church concerning a necessary Article of Faith , but what appears to be clearly revealed in Scriture , and universally embraced by the Catholick Church of all Ages . 3. Nothing ought to be looked on as a necessary Article of Faith , by the judgement of the Catholick Church , the denyal of which was not universally opposed , and condemned as Heresie . For otherwise the Catholick Church , was very little sensible of the honour of Christian Faith , if it suffered dissenters in necessary things , without putting a mark of dishonour upon them . Therefore we may conclude , that whatever was patiently born with in such as dissented from the generality of Christians , especially , if considerable persons in the Church were the authors or fomenters of such opinions , however true the contrary Doctrine was supposed to be , yet it was not supposed necessary , because then the opposers would have been condemned of Heresie , by some open act of the Catholick Church . But if , beyond these Negatives , we would enquire what was positively believed as necessary to Salvation , by the Catholick Church ; we shall hardly find any better way , than by the Articles of the Ancient Creeds , and the universal opposition of any new Doctrine on its firsts appearance , and the condemning the broachers of it for Heresie in Oecumenical Councils , with the continual disapprobation of those Doctrines by the Christian Churches of all Ages . As is clear in the cases of Arrius and Pelagius . For it seems very reasonable to judge , that since the necessary Articles of Faith were all delivered by the Apostles to the Catholick Church , since the foundation of that Church lyes in the belief of those things , which are necessary , that nothing should be delivered contrary to any necessary Article of Faith but the Church , by some evident act , must declare its dislike of it , and its resolution thereby to adhere to that necessary Doctrine , which was once delivered to the Saints . And withall , it seems reasonable , that because Art and Subtilty may be used by such who seek to pervert the Catholick Doctrine , and to wrest the plain places of Scripture , which deliver it , so far from their proper meaning , that very few ordinary capacities may be able to clear themselves of such mists as are cast before their eyes ; the sense of the Catholick Church in succeeding ages , may be a very useful way for us to embrace the true sense of Scripture , especially in the great Articles of the Christian Faith. As for instance , in the Doctrine of the Deity of Christ , or the Trinity ; though the subtilty of such Modern Hereticks , who oppose either of these , may so far prevail on persons , either not of sufficient judgement , or not sufficiently versed in the Scriptures , as at present to make them acknowledge the places are not so clear as they imagined them to be ; yet they being alwaies otherwise interpreted by the Catholick Church , or the Christian Societies of all ages , layes this potent prejudice against all such attempts , as not to believe such interpretations true , till they give a just account , why , if the belief of these Doctrines were not necessary , the Christians of all ages from the Apostles times , did so unanimously agree in them , that when any began first to oppose them , they were declared and condemned for Hereticks for their pains . So that the Church of England doth very piously declare her consent with the Ancient Catholick Church , in not admitting any thing to be delivered as the sense of Scripture , which is contrary to the consent of the Catholick Church in the four first ages . Not as though the sense of the Catholick Church were pretended to be any infallible Rule of interpreting Scripture in all things which concern the Rule of Faith ; but that it is a sufficient Prescription against any thing which can be alledged out of Scripture , that if it appear contrary to the sense of the Catholick Church from the beginning , it ought not to be looked on as the true meaning of the Scripture . All this security is built upon this strong presumption , that nothing contrary to the necessary Articles of Faith , should he held by the Catholick Church , whose very being depends upon the belief of those things which are necessary to Salvation . As long therefore as the Church might appear to be truly Catholick by those correspondencies which were maintained between the several parts of it , that what was refused by one , was so by all ; so long this unanimous and uncontradicted sense of the Catholick Church , ought to have a great sway upon the minds of such who yet profess themselves members of the Catholick Church . From whence it follows , that such Doctrines may well be judged destructive to the Rule of Faith , which were so unanimously condemned by the Catholick Church within that time . And thus much may suffice for the first Inquiry , viz. What things are to be esteemed necessary , either in order to Salvation , or in order to Ecclesiastical Communion . 2. Whether any thing which was not necessary to Salvation , may by any means whatsoever afterwards become necessary , so that the not believing it becomes damnable , and unrepented destroyes Salvation ? We suppose the Question to proceed on such things as could not antecedently to such an act whereby they now become necessary , be esteemed to be so , either from the matter , or from any express command . For you in terms assert a necessity of believing distinct from the matter , and absolute command , and hath the Churches Definition for its formal object , which makes the necessity of our Faith continually to depend upon the Churches Definition ; but this strange kind of Ambulatory Faith , I shall now shew to be repugnant , to the design of Christ and his Apostles , in making known Christian Religion , and to all evidence of Reason , and directly contrary to the plain and uncontradicted sense of the Primitive and Catholick Church . 1. It is contrary to the design of Christ and his Apostles , in making known the Christian Religion to the world . For , if the design of Christ was to declare whatever was necessary to the Salvation of mankind , if the Apostles were sent abroad for this very end , then either they were very unfaithful in discharge of their trust , or else they taught all things necessary for their Salvation ; and , if they did so , how can any thing become necessary , which they did never teach ? Was it not the great Promise concerning the Messias , that at his coming , the Earth should be full of the Knowledge of the Lord , as the Waters cover the Sea ; that then they shall all be taught of God ? Was not this the just expectation of the people concerning him , That when he came he would tell them all things ? Doth not he tell his Disciples , That all things I have heard of my Father , I have made known unto you ? And , for all this , is there something still remaining necessary to Salvation , which neither he , nor his Disciples , did ever make known to the world ? Doth not he promise Life and Salvation to all such as believe and obey his Doctrine ? And can any thing be necessary for eternal life , which he never declared ? or did he only promise it to the men of that Age and Generation , and leave others to the mercy of the Churches Definitions ? If this be so , we have sad cause to lament our condition , upon whom these heavy loyns of the Church are fallen : how happy had we been , if we had lived in Christs , or the Apostles times ; for then we might have been saved , though we had never believed the Pope's Supremacy , or Transubstantiation , or Invocation of Saints , or Worshipping Images ; but now the case is altered ; these Milstones are now hung about our necks , and how we shall swim to Heaven with them , who knows ? How strangely mistaken was our Saviour , when he said , Blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed ; For , much more blessed certainly were they , who did see him , and believe in him ; for then he would undertake for their Salvation ; but now , it seems , we are out of his reach , and turned over to the Merciless Infallibility of the present Church . When Christ told his Disciples , His yoke was easie , and burden light ; he little thought , what Power he had left in the Church to lay on so much load , as might cripple mens belief ; were it not for a good reserve in a corner , call'd Implicit Faith. When he sent the Apostles to teach all that he commanded them , he must be understood so , that the Church hath power to teach more if she pleases ; and though the Apostles , poor men , were bound up by this commission , and S. Peter himself too , yet his Infallible Successors have a Paramount Priviledge beyond them all . Though the Spirit was promised to the Apostles , to lead them into all Truth , yet there must be no incongruity , in saying , They understood not some necessary Truths ( for how should they , when never revealed ) as Transubstantiation , Supremacy , &c. Because , though they never dreamt of such things , yet the Infallible Church hath done it since for them ; and , to say truth , though the Apostles names were put into the promise , yet they were but Feoffees in trust for the Church , and the benefit comes to the Church by them . For they were only Tutors to the Church in its minority , teaching it some poor Rudiments of Christ and Heaven , of Faith and Obedience , &c. But the great and Divine Mysteries of the seven Sacraments , Indulgences , Worship of Images , Sacrifice of the Mass , &c. were not fit to be made known till the Church were at age her self , and knew how to declare her own mind . When S. Paul speaks so much of the great Mysteries hidden from Ages and Generations , but now made known , it must be understood with a reference to those silly people who lived in that Age ; but there were greater Mysteries than these , which neither Christ , nor any of his Apostles were ever acquainted with , as Purgatory , and those before mentioned ; for these were reserved as the Churches Portion , when her Infallibility-ship should come to Age. S. Paul , honest man , spake as he thought , when he told not the common people , but the Bishops of the Church , That he had not shunned to declare unto them all the Counsel of God ; but if he had lived to our Age , he would have heard of this mistake with both ears ; and if he had not sworn the contrary , he must have been contented to have been call'd Schismatick and Heretick a thousand times over . These are all the just and rare consequences of your Churches blessed Infallibility , and Power of Defining things necessary , which were not so in Christ , or his Apostles times . But , the greatest knack of all is yet behind ; for men are bound to believe all the Doctrines of your Church to be Apostolical , and yet that your Church hath power to make things necessary to be believed , which were not so in the Apostolical times . Yes , say you , They were Doctrines then , but not so necessary as now , because they had not the Churches Definition . It seems , at last , the Apostles knew them , but did not understand the worth of them ; else , no doubt , they were such charitable souls , they would have declared them to the world . Blessed S. Paul , who was continually employed in teaching and instructing men in the way to Salvation , could he have held back any thing that had tended to it , when he sayes , He kept back nothing that was profitable to them , but shewed them , and taught them publickly , and from house to house , testifying to the Jews , and also to the Greeks , Repentance towards God , and Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ : What , not one word of the necessary Points all this while ? nothing of the Church of Rome , nor Christ's Vicar on Earth , and his Infallibility ? How slily and cunningly did S. Paul , and the rest of the Apostles carrie it , if they had believed these things ; never let one word drop from their mouths or pens concerning them ? and instead of that , speak so , and write so , that one that believes them honest , would swear they never heard of them . In what another kind of strain would S. Paul have writ to the Church of Rome , if he had had but any inckling of the Chair of Infallibility , being placed there ? How soon would he have blotted out the whole 14. Chapter of his Epistle to the Corinthians , if he had known his Holiness his pleasure about serving God in an unknown tongue ? How well might he have spared saying , That a Bishop should be the Husband of one Wife , if he had known de jure divino he must have none at all ? At what another rate would he have discoursed of the Eucharist , had he believed Transubstantiation , Sacrifice of the Mass , Communion under one kind ? What course would he have taken with the Schismatical Corinthians , that were divided like other Churches , if he had known the Infallible Judge of Controversie ? If he had but understood the danger of reading Scriptures , he might have spared his exhortations to the people of the Word of God dwelling richly in them , and filled his Epistles with Pater Nosters , and Ave Mary's , or given good directions about them . But he must be pardoned , he was ignorant of these things , as well as we : only S. Paul never heard of them , and we do not believe them ; because neither he , nor his Brethren ever revealed them to us , though they were the Stewards of the Mysteries of God ; and they tell us themselves , That it is requisite such should be faithful , which we cannot understand how they could be , if they knew these deep Mysteries , but never discovered them that we can learn. But , if they knew them not , I pray from whence is it your Church learns them ? By immediate inspiration ? no , as bold as you are , you dare not challenge that : but whence then come you to know them to be necessary ? infallibly forsooth : But whence comes this Infallibility ? must there not be a peculiar Revelation , to discover that to be necessary , which was never discovered to be so before ? But if discovered before , and declared before , the things were as necessary before your Churches Definition , as after ; and therefore your Churches Definition adds nothing of necessity to them . If neither discovered , nor declared , you must have particular Revelation for them , and then work miracles , and we will believe you , but not otherwise ; but , before you do it , consider what S. Paul hath said concerning an Angel from Heaven preaching another Gospel , let him be accursed ; and what can be more preaching another Gospel , than making other things necessary to Salvation , than Christ or his Apostles did ; and think then what your Church hath deserved for all her Definitions concerning Articles of Faith , or things necessary to be believed in order to Salvation . But yet further you say , That these things were declared by the Apostles , but they need a further Declaration now : And why so ? shew us the Apostle's Declaration , and it sufficeth us ; we shall not believe them one jot the more for your additional Definition . And it is surely a sign , you did not think the Apostles Declaration sufficient , or else you would never pretend to new ones . Perhaps you will tell us , It was to their Age , but not to ours ? why not , as well as the other necessary Articles of Faith contained in Scripture ? I know your Answer is , We can know no necessary Article of Faith at all ; but from your Church . So then , we have brought all into a narrow compass , and instead of new Definitions of the Church concerning necessary things , we can know nothing at all to be necessary to be believed , but from your Church . This is high , but the higher it is , the better Foundation it had need stand on , which we shall throughly search into ; in the Controversie of the resolution of Faith : to which we referr it , and return . If there were once a Declaration , but still there needs another , What is become of that Declaration ? was it lost in its passage down to us ? how then was that present Church infallible , which lost a Declaration in matter of Faith ? was it necessary to be believed in the intermediate Age or no ? if it was , then it was not lost , and then what need a new Declaration ? if not , then a thing once necessary to Salvation , may be not necessary to Salvation , and become necessary to Salvation again . But still we have cause to envy their happiness , who lived in the Age when they might be saved without believing these things : for the case goes hard with us , for you tell us , Unless we believe them necessary , we cannot be saved ; and our consciences tell us , that if we did profess to believe them necessary , when we do not , and cannot , we cannot be saved . What a case then were we in , if the Pope were Christ's Vicar in Heaven , as he pretends to be on Earth ; but it is our comfort , he is neither so , nor so . Thus we see what repugnancy there is both to Scirpture and Reason in this strange Doctrine of your Churches Definitions , making things necessary to Salvation , which were not so before . I should now proceed to shew how repugnant this Doctrine is to the unanimous consent of Antiquity ; but I find my self prevented in that , by the late Writings of one of your own Communion ; and if you will believe him in his Epistle Dedicatory ( which I much question ) the present Popes most humble Servant , our Countryman Mr. Thomas White . Whose whole Book , call'd his Tabulae Suffragiales , is purposely designed against this fond and absurd Opinion ; nay , he goes so high , as to assert the Opinion of the Pope's Personal Infallibility , not only to be Heretical , but Archi-heretical ; and that the propagating of this Doctrine is in its kind a most grievous sin . It cannot but much rejoyce us to see , that men of wit and parts begin to discover the intolerable arrogance of such pretences , and that such men as D. Holden , and Mr. White , are in many things come so near the Protestant Principles ; and that since they quit the Plea of Infallibility , and relye on Vniversal Tradition , we are in hopes that the same reason and ingenuity which carried these persons thus far , will carry others , who go on the same principles , so much farther , as to see , how impossible it is to make good the points in Controversie between us , upon the Principle of Vniversal Tradition . Which the Bigots of your Church are sufficiently sensible of , and therefore , like the Man at Athens , when your Hands are cut off , you are resolved to hold this Infallibility with your Teeth : and so that Gentleman finds by the proceedings of the Court of Rome against him for that and his other pieces . But , this should not have been taken notice of , lest we should seem to see ( as who doth not , that is not stark blind ? ) what growing Divisions and Animosities there are among your selves both at home and in foreign parts ; and yet all this while the poor silly people must be told , that there is nothing but Division out of your Church , and nothing but Harmony and Musick in it , but such as is made of Discords . And that about this present Controversie ; for the forenamed Gentleman in his Epistle to the present Pope , tells him plainly , That it is found true by frequent Experience , That there is no defending the Catholick Faith against the subtilties of his Heretical Countrymen , without the principles of that Book , which was condemned at Rome . And what those principles are , we may easily see by this Book , which is writ in defence of the former . Wherein he largely proves , that the Church hath no power to make New Articles of Faith , which he proves both from Scripture , Reason and Authority ; this last , is that I shall referr the Reader to him for : for in his second Table , as he calls it , he proves from the testimonies of Origen , Basil , Chrysostom , Cyril , Irenaeus , Tertullian , Pope Stephen , Hierom , Theophylact , Augustine , Vincentius Lerinensis , and several others ; nay , the testimonies , he sayes , to this purpose , are so many , that whole Libraries must be transcribed to produce them all . And afterwards more largely proves , That the Faith of the Church lyes in a continued succession from the Apostles , both from Scripture and Reason , and abundance of Church-Authorities in his 4 , 5 , and 6. Tables : and , through the rest of his Book , disproves the Infallibility of Councils and Pope . And , can you think all this is answered by an Index Expurgatorius , or by publishing a false-Latin Order of the inquisition at Rome , whereby his Books are prohibited , and his Opinions condemned as heretical , erronious in Faith , rash , scandalous , seditious , and what not ? It seems then , it is grown at last de fide , that the Pope is infallible , and never more like to do so , than in this age ; for the same person gives us this character of it in his Purgation of himself , to the Cardinals of the Inquisition , saying , That their Eminencies , by the unhappiness of the present Age , in which Knowledge is banished out of the Schools , and the Doctrines of Faith and Theological Truths are judged by most voices ; fell , it seems , upon some ignorant and arrogant Consultors ; who , hand over head , condemn those Propositions , which , upon their oaths , they could not tell whether they were true or false . If these be your proceedings at Rome , happy we that have nothing to do with such Infallible Ignorance : This is the Age your Religion were like to thrive in , if Ignorance were as predominant elsewhere , as it seems it is at Rome . But I leave this , and return . 3. The last thing is , Whether the Church hath Power by any Proposition or Definition , to make any thing become necessary to Salvation , and to be believed as such which was not so before ? But this is already answered by the foregoing Discourse ; for if the necessity of the things to be believed , must be supposed antecedently to the Churches Being , if that which was not before necessary , cannot by any act whatsoever afterwards become necessary , then it unavoidably follows , That the Church neither hath , nor can have any such power . Other things which relate to this , we shall have occasion to discuss in following your steps : which , having thus far cleared this important Controversie , I betake my self to . And we are highly obliged to you , for the rare Divertisements you give us in your excellent way of managing Controversies . Had my Lord of Canterbury been living , What an excellent entertainment would your Confutation of his Book have afforded him ? But , since so pleasant a Province is fallen to my share , I must learn to command my self in the management of it , and therefore , where you present us with any thing which deserves a serious Answer , for truth and the causes sake , you shall be sure to have it . In the first place , you charge his Lordship with a Fallacy , and that is , because , when he was to speak of Fundamentals , he did not speak of that which was not Fundamental . But , say you , He turns the difficulty , which only proceeded upon a Fundamentality or Necessity , derived from the formal Object , that is , from the Divine Authority revealing that Point , to the Material Object , that is , to the importance of the Matter contained in the Point revealed ; which is a plain Fallacy , in passing à sensu formali ad materialem . Men seldom suspect those faults in others , which they find not strong inclinations to in themselves ; had you not been conscious of a notorious Fallacy in this distinction of Formal and Material Object , as here applyed by you ; you would never have suspected any such Sophistry in his Lordship's Discourse . I pray consider what kind of Fundamentals those are , which the Question proceeds on , viz. such as are necessary to be owned as such by all Churches , in order to their being true Churches , as is plain by the rise of this Controversie ; for Mr. Fisher was proving the Greek Church to be no true Church , and , in order to that , proves , that she erred Fundamentally , for which he makes Vse of this Medium ; That , whatever is defined by the Church is Fundamental . So that the whole Process of the Dispute lyes thus . TWhat ever Church is guilty of a Fundamental Errour , ceaseth to be a true Church ; but the Greek Church is guilty of a Fundamental Errour ; ergo . The Minor being denyed , he thus proves it : If whatever is defined by the Church be Fundamental , then the Greek Church is guilty of a Fundamental errour , because she denyes something defined by the Church ; but whatever is defined by the Church is Fundamental ; which is the thing his Lordship denyes , and his adversary is bound to prove . So that any one who was not resolved to wink as hard as you do , might easily see , the state of the Controversie doth not concern what things are Fundamental , supposing men know them to be sufficiently propounded ; but what things are so necessary to be owned for Fundamentals , that upon the denying them , a Church ceaseth to be a true Church . Yet this mistake as gross and palpable , as it is , runs through your whole Discourse of Fundamentals , which , without it cannot hold together . If you will therefore prove , that , besides such things whose necessity ariseth from the matter , there are other from the Formal Object , which all Churches are equally bound to believe , in order to their being true Churches , you do something ; but not before . But we must still attend your Motions , especially when they tend towards proofs , as yours do now . For , say you , Now I shew ( the difficulty being understood , as it ought to be of the Formal Object , whereby Points of Faith are manifested to Christians ) that all Points defined by the Church as matter of Faith , are Fundamental ; that is , necessary to Salvation to be believed by all those to whom they are sufficiently propounded to be so defined by this Argument . Whosoever refuseth to believe any thing sufficiently propounded to him for a truth revealed from God , commits a sin damnable and destructive of Salvation : But , whosoever refuses to believe any Point sufficiently propounded to him for defined by the Church as matter of Faith , refuses to believe a thing sufficiently propounded to him for a truth revealed from God. Ergo , Whosoever refuses to believe any Point sufficiently propounded to him for defined by the Church as matter of Faith , commits a sin damnable and destructive of Salvation . Before you proceed to the proof of your Minor , several things must here be considered , that we may better understand your meaning , and know what it is you intend to prove . Especially what you intend by sufficient Proposition . Do you mean such a Proposition as carries evidence along with it , or not ? in which case the very understanding the terms , is sufficient Proposition , as that , two and two make four ; but , I suppose , you mean not this , therefore it must be the sufficient Proposition of something which wants natural evidence ; and therefore something else must be required , besides , the propounding the thing to make the Proposition be said to be sufficient . For Sufficiency relates to some end ; so that a sufficient Proposition must be such a Proposition as is sufficient for its end : now the end of the Proposition of Matters of Faith , is , that they may be believed ; and therefore the sufficiency of the Proposition lyes in the Arguments or Motives inducing men to believe . Now the Objects of Faith being of a different nature , the Sufficiency of the Proposition must be taken from a respect to them : for in things which are so clearly revealed , as necessary to Salvation , that none who acknowledge the Scripture to be God's Word , can doubt but such things are necessary ; in this case the Sufficiency of the Proposition lyes in the Evidence of Divine Revelation , and the clearness of it to all understandings who consider it , and the Reasons or Motives of Faith in that case , are the same with those which induce men to believe , that the Scripture it self is from Divine Revelation . But , there being other things in Scripture , which neither appear so clear , or so necessary to be believed by all , something else is required in order to a sufficient Proposition of them , and in order to the making any of these things universally obligatory to Christians on pain of damnation , for not believing them these things are necessary . 1. It must be much clearer than the thing which is propounded to be believed on the account of it ; for , to propound a thing to be believed by something at least as disputable as the matter it self , cannot certainly be call'd a sufficient Proposition . 2. It must be antecedently proved to be a true and certain Proposition , before any thing can be believed on the account of it . For , if men cannot see any reason to believe that there is any necessary Connexion between that which you call a sufficient Proposition , and any matter of Faith ; they cannot be guilty of any sin at all in not believing what you think is sufficiently propounded . But , in this case , it is not your judgement , what Proposition is sufficient that makes it so , but the Reason of the Thing , and the Evidence that God hath appointed that way to reveal his Will to men , and that what is so propounded is necessary to be believed . As for instance , suppose you were told by the Greek Church , that to believe the Pope's Supremacy , jure divino , were a damnable sin , and that whosoever did not believe this being sufficiently propounded to them as a matter of Faith , as defined by the Church , were guilty of a sin destructive to Salvation , what answer would you return in this case ? Would you not say , That the Proposition , though judged sufficient by them , is not judged so by you ; and that they must first prove , that whatever their Church defines as a matter of Faith , is to be believed for such , before the other can be believed on the account of it . Just the same answer we return to you ; prove first of all to us in a clear and evident manner , that God hath appointed the Definition of your Church , as the means whereby we may be infallibly assured , what is Matter of Faith , and what not ; and then we may grant , that what your Church propounds as a matter of Faith , is sufficiently propounded as a matter revealed from God , but not before . For , while I see no reason to believe the Churches Proposition to be sufficient , I have no reason to believe , that what she propoundes , as defined for matter of Faith , is truly so : And , as long as I can see no reason to believe it , prove the disbelief of it to be a sin in me when you can . Thus we see , how far from being evident that Major of yours is , though you are pleased to tell us , it is so ; but we do not believe your Defining it to be so , to be any matter of Faith , unless we had better reason for it , than we have . For , say you , To refuse to believe God's Revelation , is either to give God the lye , or to doubt whether he speak truth or no ? But , have you so little wit , as not to distinguish between not believing God's Revelation , and not believing what is propounded for God's Revelation ? Must every one , who doth not believe every thing that is propounded for God's Revelation , presently give God the lye , and doubt whether he speak truth or no ? And are not you then guilty of that fault every time a Quaker or Enthusiast tells you , That the Spirit of God within him told him this and that ? But you said , Sufficiently propounded . But the Question is , What sufficient Proposition is , and who must be Judge whether the Proposition be sufficient or no , you , or the conscience of the person to whom the thing is proposed to be believed ? If any one indeed that judgeth a Proposition sufficient , do notwithstanding question the truth of it , he doth interpretatively call God's Veracity into question ; but not he certainly who thinks not God's Veracity at all concerned in that which you call a sufficient Proposition , but he judgeth not to be so . Let us now see , how you prove your Assumption , which is very fairly done from a Supposition which his Lordship denies ; which is , That General Councils cannot erre . But , say you , he adds , That though he should grant it , yet this cannot down with him , that all Points even so defined were Fundamentals . I grant , those are his words , and his reasons follow them . For , Deductions are not prime and native Principles ; nor are Superstructures , Foundations . That which is a Foundation for all , cannot be one and another to different Christians , in regard of it self ; for then it could be no common Rule for any , nor could the souls of men rest upon a shaking Foundation . No , if it be a true Foundation , it must be common to all , and firm under all ; in which sense the Articles of Christian Faith are Fundamental . What now do you prove to destroy this ? You very strenuously prove , That if men believe , A General Council cannot erre , they believe it cannot erre so far , and no further than it cannot erre . But , if you mean any thing further , your meaning is better than your proof : for when you would prove that to disbelieve the Churches Definition , is to dis-believe God's Revelation ; and in order to that confound the Church and General Councils together , and from the General Council's not erring , inferr the former Proposition , because , what is testified by the Church , is testified by an Authority that cannot erre ; you do not consider , that all this while you prove nothing against his Lordship , unless you first prove , that whatever is testified to be revealed from God , is presently Fundamental to all Churches and Christians , which his Lordship utterly denies , by distinguishing even things which may be testified to be revealed from God , into such things as are common to all Christians to be believed by them , and such things as vary according to the different respects of Christians . But yet further , I add , that taking Fundamentals in your sense , you prove not the thing you intended , but only to such as do acknowledge , and as far as they do acknowledge , that General Councils cannot erre . For , they who acknowledge them infallible only in Fundamentals , do not judge any thing Fundamental by their Decision , but judge their Decisions infallible , so long as they hold to Fundamentals ; and so ( for all that I can see ) leave themselves Judges , when General Councils are infallible , and when not : and therefore if they go about to testifie any thing as revealed from God , which is not Fundamental , they do not believe that their testimony cannot erre , and so are not bound to believe that it is from God. They who believe General Councils absolutely infallible , I do verily think do believe General Councils infallible in all they say ; for that is the substance of all you say . But , what that is to those who neither do , nor can see any reason to believe them infallible in all they say or testifie as revealed from God , I neither do , nor can possibly understand . And , if you hope such kind of Arguments can satisfie your ingenuous Reader , you suppose him a good-natur'd man in the Greek sense of the phrase . But all of a sudden , we find you in a very generous strain , and are contented to take Fundamentals for Fundamentals ( which is a huge Concession , and his Lordship , were he living , would take it for a singular favour from you . ) Yet to deal freely with the Bishop ( say you ) even taking Fundamentals in a General way ( as it ought to be taken only here ) for a thing belonging to the Foundation of Religion ( and it is a strange Fundamental which hath no respect to the Foundation , but they who build downwards , must have their Foundations on tops of their houses ) It is also manifest , that all Points defined by the Church are Fundamental , by reason of that formal Object , or infallible Authority , propounding them , though not alwaies by reason of the matter which they contain . The main proof of which lyes in this , That he who doth not believe the Church infallible , can believe nothing at all infallibly , and therefore no Fundamental of Religion ; but , if he believe any thing upon the Churches Infallibility , he must believe all things on the same account of her Infallibility , and therefore must believe all equally ; and so , whatever is propounded by the Church , is to be believed as Fundamental . This you cannot deny to be the force and strength of your verbose , and confused way of arguing . And therefore I give you a short Answer , That I utterly deny the Infallibility of any Church , to be in any thing the Foundation of Divine and Infallible Faith ; as you will find it abundantly proved in the proper place for it , in the Controversie of the Resolution of Faith. Where it will be largely discussed , in what sense Faith may be said to be Divine and Infallible , what the proper grounds and reasons of our believing are , and how much you impose upon the world , in pretending that the Resolution of Faith , is into the Catholick Churches Infallibility ; whereby it will appear to be far from a Fundamental Errour , not to believe on the Churches Infallibility , and that he who denies it , will have no reason to call into Question the Canon of Scripture , or the Foundations of all Religion . But , that you rather , by these absurd and unreasonable pretences of yours , have done your utmost to shake the true Foundations of Religion , and advance nothing but Sceptiscism , not to say Atheism in the world . These things I take upon me to make good in their proper place , and therefore shall not enter the discussion of them here : but since , this is the main , and , in truth , the only Foundation of your Doctrine of Fundamentals , the vanity , falshood and absurdity of it , cannot be sufficiently understood , till we have gone through the Account of the Grounds of Faith. If S. Augustine make some no Catholick Christians , for holding obstinately some things of no great moment in his Book of Heresies ; it was , because by Catholick Christians he understood all such , and only such , as were the members of the sound and Orthodox Church , in opposition to all kind of unnecessary separation from it upon matters of small moment , and not because he believed the Churches Infallibility , in defining all matters of Faith ; and that all such things were so defined , which men are call'd Hereticks for denying of : unless you will suppose , it was ever infallibly defined , that there were no Antipodes ; for some were accounted Hereticks for believing them ; and that by such whom you account greater than S. Austin . But , for S. Austin , how far it was from his meaning , to have all those accounted Fundamental Errours , which he recounts in his Book of Heresies , appears not only from the multitude of particulars mentioned in it , which no one in his senses can acknowledge Fundamental , or declared by the Church as necessary to be believed by all , but from his declared scope and design in the preface to that Book , wherein it appears , he was desired not only to write the greater errours concerning Faith , the Trinity , Baptism , Repentance , Christ , the Resurrection , the Old and New Testament , Sed omnia omnino quibus à veritate dissentiunt , i. e. all kind of errours whatsoever ; and do you think that there could then be no errour , but it must be against some thing then defined by the Church as necessary to Salvation ? If not , then all truths were then defined by the Church , and consequently there could be no new Definitions ever since ; if there might , then those errours mentioned by S. Austin , were not about matters necessary to be believed ; and so S. Austin's Book of Heresies makes nothing for you ; but very much against you , considering that in all that black list of Hereticks , there are none brought in for denying those grand Fundamentals of your Church , the Pope's Supremacy , your Churches Infallibility , nor any of that new brood of necessary Articles , which were so prudently hatcht by the Council of Trent . But if S. Austin do you no good , you hope S. Gregory Nazianzen may , because he saith , That nothing can be more perillous than those Hereticks , who with a drop of poison do infect our Lord 's sincere Faith. Therefore all things defined by the Church are Fundamental . What an excellent Art this Logick is , that can fetch out of things that which was never in them ! What a rare consequence is this , If Heresie be dangerous , then , whatever is defined by the Church , is Fundamental : but it may be , the strength lyes in the drop of poison , as though S. Gregory thought a drop of poison as dangerous as a whole dose of it . But , were I your Physitian , instead of the least drop of poison , I should prescribe you good store of Hellebore , and should hope to see the effect of it , in making better consequences than these are . But to see yet further , the strange effects that Logick hath upon some men ; for , say you , in the prosecution of your proof , that all things defined by the Church are Fundamental . Hence it is , that Christ our Saviour saith , Matth. 8.17 . If he will not hear the Church , let him be to thee as a Heathen and a Publican . The Argument in form runs thus ; Whosoever deserves excommunication , is guilty of a Fundamental Errour ; but he that will not hear the Church , deserves Excommunication ; ergo , Or else there may be more in it than so . For , no doubt , the Heathens and Publicans as such , were guilty of Fundamental Errours ; therefore they who will not hear the Church , are guilty of as Fundamental Errours as Heathens and Publicans . But , before you urge us any more with this dreadful Argument , I pray tell us , What that Church is which our Saviour speaks of ; what the cases are , wherein the Church is to be heard ; what the full importance is , of being as a Heathen and Publican ; and you must prove this Church to be understood in your sense of the Catholick Church , and that this Church hath hereby power to define matters of Faith , and that none can possibly in any other sense be accounted as Heathens and Publicans , but as guilty of as Fundamental Errours as they were . Your next Objection concerning giving God and the Church the lye , and preferring and opposing a man's private judgement and will before and against the Judgement and Will of God and the Church , if men deny or doubt of any thing made known by the Church to be a truth revealed by God ; signifies nothing at all , unless it be antecedently proved , that the Church can never erre in declaring any thing to be a truth revealed by God , which none , who know what you mean by the Church , will easily assent to , till you have attempted a further proof of it , than yet we find . And , although the questioning Divine Veracity be destructive to that which you call Supernatural Faith , yet I hope it is possible to believe God to be true , and yet that all men are lyars , or that there is no such inseparable Connexion between God's Veracity , and the present Declarations of any Church , but that one may heartily assent to the former , and yet question the truth of the latter . If you think otherwise , shew your pity to the weakness of our understandings , by something that may look like a proof of it , which we are still much to seek for . But , your greatest strength , like Sampson's , seems to lye there where one would least suspect it , viz. in Athanasius his Creed . For thus you go on . Wherefore it is said in S. Athanasius his Creed ( which is approved in the thirty nine Articles of the pretended English Church ) that , Whosoever will be saved , it is necessary that he hold the Catholick Faith — which unless every one hold whole and inviolate , without doubt he shall perish for ever : Neither can the Bishop reply , That all Points expressed therein are Fundamental in his sense ; for ( to omit the Article of our Saviours descent into Hell ) he mentions expresly the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son , which his Lordship hath denyed to be a Fundamental Point , as we saw in the former Chapter . But , the better to comprehend the force of this Argument , we must first consider what it is you intend to prove by it , and then in what way and manner you prove it from this Creed . The matter which you are to prove , is , that all things defined by the Church , are Fundamental , i. e. in your sense necessary to Salvation ; and , that the ground why such things , whose matter is not necessary , do become necessary , is , because the Church declares them to be revealed by God ; now , in order to this , you insist on the Creed commonly call'd Athanasius his , wherein some things , acknowledged not to be Fundamental in the matter , are yet said to be necessary to Salvation , and that this is owned by the Church of England . This is the substance of the Argument , which being resolved into its parts , will consist of these Propositions . 1. That some things owned not to be Fundamental in the matter , are yet acknowledged in the Creed of Athanasius , to be necessary to Salvation . 2. That the reason why these things do become necessary , is , because the Church hath defined them to be so . 3. That this is acknowledged by the Church of England . And therefore , by parity of reason , whatever is defined by the Church , must be necessary to Salvation . But every one of these Propositions being ambiguous , the clear stating of them will be the best way of solving the difficulty , which seems to lye in the present Argument . And the main Ambiguity lyes in the meaning of that necessity to Salvation , which is implied in the Athanasian Creed , as to the Articles therein contained ; for , there being different grounds and reasons upon which things may be supposed necessary , there can be no just consequence made from the general owning a necessity of the belief of some things , to the making those things necessary to be believed upon one particular account of it . For the necessity of believing things to Salvation , may arise from one of these three grounds . 1. The Supposition , that the matter to be believed is in it self necessary this makes it necessary to all those persons who are of that perswasion ; and on this ground it is plain , that the main Articles of the Athanasian Creed are generally supposed necessary , viz. those concerning the Trinity in Vnity , the Incarnation , Resurrection , and Eternal Life , &c. Now these being supposed to be necessary from the Matter , any Church may own them under this degree of necessity , in that expression used in several places of the Athanasian Creed , Whosoever will be saved , it is necessary that he hold the Catholick Faith — which Catholick Faith is , &c. But then we are to consider , that this is only a Declaration of the sense of that Church , what things she owns as necessary , and what not . And this Declaration doth not oblige the conscience of particular persons any further , than as the Articles of that Church are required to be owned as the conditions of Communion with her , i. e. where the degree of necessity is not declared , nor expresly owned by a Church , but left in general terms ; no man is bound to believe the things judged as necessary , with any particular kind of necessity , exclusive of others , but only that the Church in General may use that Creed supposed necessary , and that the Use of that Creed is a lawful condition of that Churches Communion . 2. The belief of a thing may be supposed necessary , because of the clear Conviction of mens understandings , that though the matters be not in themselves necessary , yet being revealed by God , they must be explicitly believed ; but then the necessity of this Belief doth extend no further than the clearness of that Conviction doth . As , suppose it inserted into a Creed , that the Article of the Descent must be understood according to the sense of the Scriptures , this doth oblige no man to any further necessity of belief of the sense of the Article , then he is convinced , that it is the sense of the Scriptures ; And the case is the same , when the Article is expressed only in general terms , which are known to be capable of very different senses , when none of which are expressed , no particular sense can be said to be necessary to Salvation , to particular persons , but only that sense in general , which all must agree in who own it , and the particulars are left to the Convictions of mens understandings upon the use of the best means of satisfaction . So that he that believes fully that the meaning of this Article from Scripture , is , that Christ's soul did locally descend to Hell , it is necessary for him to believe so , upon such Conviction ; but he that sees no more necessary to be believed by it , but that Christ's soul was , during his Body's lying in the Grave , in a state of Separation from it ; how can you prove it necessary to Salvation for him to believe any more than this ? And the case is the same as to all Modes of Existence , and particular explications of Articles in themselves owned , as of the different Subsistencies in the Trinity , the manner of the Hypostatical Vnion of the two Natures in Christ's Person , supposing the Doctrines themselves believed , what reason can there be to assert it necessary to Salvavation to all persons , to believe them under such a sense , if the Article may be it self believed without it , any further than as things under those explications , are manifested to such persons to be necessary to be believed . As Leo 3. defined in the Article of the Holy Ghost's Procession from the Son , To such , who , by reason of capacity and apprehension , could attain to the Knowledge of it , it was necessary to be believed , but not by others ; as appears in our former Discourse on that Subject . Therefore from hence we see another account , why things may become necessary to be believed and owned as such , besides the matter and the Churches Definition . These things may be said to be necessary to be believed by such , who believe the Churches Proposition to be sufficient , though it be not ; as , suppose any member of the Greek Church should believe their Church infallible , it is necessary , for such a one to believe whatever is propounded by that Church , though you suppose that judgement of his to be false in it self , because you say , the Greek Church is not infallible . So that from hence it appears , that the necessity arising from the Churches Definition , doth depend upon the Conviction , that whatever the Church defines , is necessary to be believed . And , where that is not received as an antecedent principle , the other cannot be supposed . By this opening the several grounds of necessity , your difficulty concerning the Athanasian Creed comes to nothing : For granting , that the Church of England doth own and approve the Creed , going under the name of Athanasius , and supposing that her Vse of the Creed , doth extend to the owning of those expressions , which import the necessity of believing the things therein contained in order to Salvation ; yet this doth not reach to your purpose , unless you prove that the Church of England doth own that necessity purely on the account of the Churches Definition of those things which are not Fundamental , which it is very unreasonable to imagine ; it being directly contrary to her sense in her nineteenth and twentieth Articles . And thence , that supposed necessity of the belief of the Articles of the Athanasian Creed , must , according to the sense of the Church of England , be resolved either into the necessity of the Matters , or into that necessity which supposeth clear Convictions , that the things therein contained are of Divine Revelation . From hence then it cannot at all follow , because the Church of England owns the Creed of Athanasius , therefore all things defined by the Church are , eo nomine , necessary to Salvation . Other particulars concerning that Creed , as to its Antiquity and Authority , we may have occasion afterwards more at large to discuss ; it sufficeth now , that nothing is thence produced pertinent to the present Controversie . His Lordship , in the progress of this Discourse , takes away that slight and poor evasion , That the Declaration of the Church makes any thing Fundamental , quoad nos , because that no respect to us can vary the Foundation . And that the Churches Declaration can bind us only to peace and external obedience , where there is not express letter of Scripture and sense agreed on : but it cannot make any thing Fundamental to us , that is not so in its own nature . For , saith he , if the Church can so add , that it can by a Declaration make a thing to be Fundamental in the Faith that was not , then it can take a thing away from the Foundation , and make it by declaring not to be Fundamental , which all men grant no power of the Church can do . For the power of adding any thing contrary , and of detracting any thing necessary , are alike forbidden , and alike denyed . Now you say , That all this is satisfied by the foresaid distinction , of material and formal Object ; and you desire the Reader , to carry along with him this distinction of objectum materiale & formale , materia attestata ; & authoritas attestantis , and he will easily discover the fallacies of his Lordship's Discourse , in this main Point of Controversie , and solve all his difficulties supported by them . No doubt , an excellent Amulet to preserve from the infection of reason ! But it is your great mishap , that where you commend it so much , it doth you so little service : For , let your distinction of formal and material Object , be supposed as sound and good , as I have shewed , it in your sense , to be false and fallacious ; yet it doth not reach that part of his Lordship's Discourse , which you apply it to . For , still his reason is conclusive , though the necessity only be supposed to arise from the Churches Authority , yet if it be in the power of the Church , to make any thing necessary which was not , why may it not be equally in her power to make something not necessary which was ? For , either the grounds of the necessity of things to Salvation , doth depend on the Doctrine of the Gospel , as at first declared to the world , or it doth not . If it doth , then it is not in the Churches Power to make any thing necessary , which was not made necessary by it ; if it doth not , then the Church may as well pretend to a power to make something not necessary , which was ; as to make something necessary , which was not . So that your distinction of Formal and Material Object , signifies nothing at all here ; only this is observable , that you make the Churches Definition to be the Formal Object of Faith here , which you very solemnly contradict afterwards . ( Chap. 5. § . 4. ) And can any thing be more evident from this Discourse of yours , than that you make the last resolution of Faith , as to the necessity of things to be believed into the Churches Definition , as its Formal Object ? But this distinction with the grounds of it being removed in our former Discourse , I shall ease my self and the Reader of any further labour in examining what follows in this Chapter , which depends wholly upon it ; or else run out into the Churches Infallibility , the infallible Assent requisite to Faith , the Canon of Scripture , and our certainty of it , or the Authority of General Councils ; all which shall be fully and particularly examined in their proper places . There being nothing said here , but what either hath been answered already , or will be more at large in a more convenient place . The only things remaining then in this Chapter , which deserve a further discussion here , are the testimonies of Scotus and S. Austin , and the Discourses which depend thereon . For our better clearing the testimony of Scotus , in which you charge his Lordship with falsification , we must consider on what account , and for what purposes that testimony is produced . His Lordship had said before , That Fundamentals are a Rock immovable , and can never be varied ; therefore what is Fundamental after the Church hath defined it , was Fundamental before the definition , and no Decrees of Councils , how general soever , can alter immovable Verities ; wherefore , if the Church in a Council define any thing , the thing defined is not fundamental because the Church hath defined it ; nor can be made so by the definition of the Church , if it be not so in it self . For if the Church hath this power , she might make a New Article of Faith , which the learned among themselves deny . For the Articles of Faith cannot increase in substance , but only in explication : For which he appeals to Bellarmin . Nor , saith he , Is this hard to be further proved out of your own School . For Scotus professeth it in this very particular of the Greek Church . If there be , saith he , a true real difference between the Greeks and Latins about the Point of the Procession of the Holy Ghost , then either they or we be , vere haeretici , truly and indeed Hereticks . Which he speaks of the old Greeks long before any decision of the Church in this Controversie . For he instances in S. Basil , and Greg. Nazianzen , on one side ; and S. Jerome , Augustine , and Ambrose , on the other . And who dares call any of these Hereticks is his challenge ? That then which his Lordship proves by this testimony , is that the nature of Heresie doth not depend on the Churches Definition , but on the Nature of the things ; for , according to Scotus , antecedently to the Churches Definition , if there had been any real difference between the Greeks and Latins one side of them had been Hereticks . To this you answer , That hence it follows not , that Scotus thought they could be Hereticks , unless they denyed or doubted of that which they had reason to believe was revealed by God , But it only follows , that if they knew this ( as those learned Greeks had sufficient reason to know it ) they might well be esteemed Hereticks , before any special Declaration of the Church ; although it be more clear , that he is an Heretick , who denies to believe that Doctrine , after he confesses that it is defined by the Church . From which answer of yours , several things are to our purpose observable . 1. That the Formal Reason of Heresie , is , denying something supposed to be of Divine Revelation . 2. That none can reasonably be accused of Heresie , but such as have sufficient reason to believe that which they deny is revealed by God. 3. That none can be guilty of Heresie , for denying any thing declared by the Church ; unless they have sufficient reason to believe , that whatever is declared by the Church , is revealed by God. Which unavoidably follows from the former , and therefore the Churches Definition cannot make any Hereticks , but such as have reason to believe that she cannot erre in her Definitions . From whence Protestants will be in less danger of Heresie than Papists , till you give us more sufficient reasons to prove , that whatever the Church declares , is certainly revealed by God. And , although you tell us , Men may be accounted Hereticks before they are condemned as such by General Councils , if they oppose the Doctrine clearly contained in Scripture , or generally received by the Church ; yet you tell us not , what the measures are , whereby we ought to judge what things are thus clearly contained in Scripture , or universally received ; whether the Churches judgement must be taken , or every man 's own judgement : if the former , the ground of Heresie lyes still in the Churches Definition , contrary to what Scotus affirms ; if the latter , then no one can be an Heretick , but he that opposeth that which he is or may be convinced , is clearly contained in Scripture , or generally received by the Church . If that which he is convinced , then no man is an Heretick , but he that goes against his present judgement , and so there will be few Hereticks in the world ; If that which he may be convinced of , it must be understood either in his own judgement , or yours ; if in his own judgement , then a Heretick is one who dissents to things rashly , without using means to inform himself : if in yours , why may not he say , You may as well be convinced of the truth of that which he believes , as he be convinced of the truth of that which you believe ; and so you may be a Heretick to him by the same reason that he is to you . But you say further , That there are many things , which in themselves are matters of Faith ; yet so obscure , in relation especially to unlearned and particular persons , that before the decree of the Church , we are not Hereticks , though we should either doubt of them , or deny them : because , as yet , there appears no sufficient reason that can oblige us to believe them ; although , after the Definition of the Church , we ought as well to believe them as any other . But it is impossible to understand how there can be such things which men might safely not believe , but upon the Definition of the Church they are bound to believe them necessarily , unless it be clear to them , that the Church hath power to make obscure things plain , and unnecessary things to become necessary . For , suppose one of these obscure things be this very Power of the Church in defining such things , while this remains so obscure , you tell me , I may doubt or disbelieve it without Heresie , and while I do so , I may certainly doubt or disbelieve all she declares . But , by what means shall this thing become clear ? must it be by the Churches defining it ? But that very Power of defining , is the thing in question , and therefore cannot be cleared by it . And if there be any thing then so obscure , that men may without sin doubt of it , or disbelieve it , certainly the Churches Power in defining matters of Faith , is such ; it being not capable , by any act of the Church , of being made so clear , as to oblige men to believe it . But we must see how his Lordship hath wronged the Testimony of Scotus : For first , say you , He would perswade his Reader , that this Author supposed a real difference between the Ancient Greek and Latin Fathers , about the Procession of the Holy Ghost ; whereas Scotus declares , that there was no real difference between them : But doth his Lordship say , there was ? doth he not expresly cite Scotus his testimony in an hypothetical manner ; If there be a true real difference , &c. and it is evident from Scotus his words , that he supposeth , If the difference had been real , that either the Greeks or Latins were truly Hereticks . And therefore you are guilty of a much greater injury to his Lordship than he was to Scotus . Again , you say , He wrongs him , in saying , That after the Churches Definition , it becomes of the substance of Faith. Now , say you , Scotus hath not one word of the substance of Faith , much less of Fundamental , which he imposes presently upon him , but sayes only thus , Ex quo Ecclesia declaravit hoc esse tenendum , &c. tenendum est , quod Spiritus Sanctus procedat ab utroque , Since the Church hath so declared , so it must be held . Sure you never expect to be believed , but by a very implicit Faith ; for if one doth but offer to search an Author , your Jugling becomes notorious . Had you the confidence to say , That Scotus has not one word of the substance of Faith ; I pray who made that , &c. for you in the sentence ? If you did it your self , you abuse your Readers ; if another did it for you , he abused you : For that very , &c. leaves out those words , sicut de substantia fidei , and try if you can render that otherwise , than as of the substance of Faith : to manifest your Forgery , the whole place is cited in the Margin . Is this your fidelity in quoting Authors , even when you charge others with wronging them ? It may be you will say yet , That Scotus doth not say , it is to be held , sicut de substantia fidei , though it be declared by the Church to be so held ! But what means then the ex quo , if men's Faith must not be guided by the Churches Declaration : for if it be therefore to be believed necessarily , because declared by the Church , it must be believed as it is declared by the Church : If therefore the Church declares that it is to be held as of the substance of Faith , it ought to be held so by such as are bound to believe it on the Churches Declaration . Besides , you will not say , but that it was to be believed before ; now , what alteration is caused by the Declaration of the Church , but this , That which was before to be believed simply and in it self , is now to be believed on the account of the Churches Declaration , as of the substance of Faith. And thus it is impossible to relieve your self with your old shift of Material and Formal Object , which you betake your self to . Thus still we see you are that most unhappy person , who never begin a charge against your adversary , but it falls back most unevitably upon your self , who so readily make use of forgeries , to prove others guilty of them . Upon Scotus his mentioning the Churches Declaration , his Lordship inquires , What this Declaration is , and how far it extends . For which , his Lordship saith , The Master teacheth , and his Scholars too , that every thing which belongs to the Exposition or Declaration of another , intus est , is not another contrary thing , but is contained within the bowels and nature of that which is interpreted : from which , if the Declaration depart , it is faulty and erronious , because , instead of declaring , it gives another and contrary sense . Therefore when the Church declares any thing in Council , either that which she declares was intus , or extra ; in the nature and verity of the thing , or out of it . If it were extra , without the nature of the thing declared , then the Declaration of the thing is false ; and so , far from being Fundamental in the Faith. If it were intus , within the nature and compass of the thing , though not open and apparent to every eye ; then the Declaration is true , but not otherwise Fundamental then the thing is which is declared : for that which is intus , cannot be larger or deeper , than that in which it is ; if it were , it could not be intus . Therefore nothing is simply Fundamental , because the Church declares it ; but because it is so , in the nature of the thing which the Church declares . In answer to this , you seem more ingenuous than usual ; for you acknowledge , that his expression is learnedly solid and good : but yet you would seem to return some answer to this Argument , viz. That although there be no alteration in the nature of the Articles by the Churches Declaration ; yet this doth not hinder them from becoming Fundamental in that sense in which we dispute , i. e. such as cannot be denyed or doubted of under pain of damnation , although they were not thus Fundamental before the Declaration , as not being so clearly proposed to us , as that we were bound to believe them . Neither doth this take away any thing from their intus , or that Being which they had of themselves ; but only gives a certainty of their being so , and declares that they ought to be so quoad nos , as well as quoad se , and internally . And it is no evasion , but a solid distinction , that the Declaration of the Church varies not the thing in it self , but quoad nos in its respect to us . The substance of your Answer lyes in this , That though the Church by her Declaration , doth not alter the nature of things , yet she may , and doth , our Obligation to believe them ; so that such things which men might have been saved without believing before , when once the Church hath declared them , become necessary to be believed in order to Salvation . And yet you would not have this called making new Articles of Faith : But I pray tell us , what you mean by Articles of Faith ; are not those properly Articles of Faith , as distinct from Theological Verities , which are necessary to be believed by all ? If therefore those things which the Church declares , were before not necessary , and by the Churches Declaration do become necessary ; than certainly those things which were not Articles of Faith , do become Articles of Faith , and what then doth the Church by her Declaration , but make New Articles of Faith ? But , though you assert the thing , you like not the terms , because they do not sound so pleasantly to the ears of Christians , who believe all Obligation to Faith doth depend upon immediate Divine Revelation . Setting aside therefore the terms , let us examine the thing , to see upon what grounds the Church can make that necessary to us , which was not in it self . In which case the Obligation not arising from the necessity of the Matter in it self to be believed , it is no otherwise intelligible , but that it must result from the supposition of some Immediate Revelation . For nothing else can bind us to an Internal Assent , which you require as necessary to the Churches Definitions but that , unless you can shew how any Society of men considered as such , have power to oblige all other men to believe what they declare on pain of damnation for not doing it . I pray tell me , whether the Apostles themselves had power to bind all Christians to the belief of something as necessary , which the Spirit of God did not immediately reveal to them to be so ? If not , what power can any Church have to do it , without a greater measure of Infallibility , than the Apostles ever pretended to ? For , they never attempted to define any thing as necessary , which was supposed unnecessary to be believed after the Doctrine of the Gospel was declared to the world . Before then you can perswade us to believe that your Church can make any thing necessary , which was not so , you must prove an Absolute Infallible Divine Assistance of God's Spirit with your Church , in whatever she shall attempt to declare or define as matter of Faith. As for instance , Supposing it not necessary to Salvation in it self to believe the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary , how is it possible to conceive , after your Churches Definition of it , it should become necessary , unless it be supposed that there was an Immediate Divine Revelation , in that Definition . For , nothing but Divine Authority commanding our Assent , the ground of Faith must be resolved into that ; now in this case , besides the Immediate Assent to the thing declared as a truth , there is a distinct Proposition to be believed , which is , That what was not before necessary to be believed , doth now become necessary to be believed by all ; and shew us , either that there is Divine Revelation for this , or else excuse us , that we cannot give an Internal Assent to it . For , we have not learnt to give an Assent of Faith to a meer humane Proposition , or , in our Saviour's words , we call no man , Master upon Earth , so as to promise to believe it in the power of any Church whatsoever , to make any thing necessary to be believed , which was not so before . Hence it appears , that your Distinction of , in se , & quoad nos , is as insignificant , as your pretence of the Churches Power to define matters of Faith is presumptuous and arrogant , being the highest degree of Lording it over the Christian world . Why your Church may not as well declare something not to be of Faith , which before was of Faith , as declare something to be of Faith , which before was not of Faith , it is not easie to apprehend , if that thing might be supposed of Faith before , without the Churches explicit Declaration . For in that case the Church would not so apparently contradict her self ; for that Contradiction doth not lye in varying the respects of things , but in one Declaration contradicting another . For otherwise , it is as great a contradiction to say , That something which was not necessary , is become necessary ; as that a thing which was necessary , is become not necessary . Therefore if there be a contradiction in one , there is in the other . If the Contradiction lyes in the Declaration , you must say , That nothing could be supposed necessary to be believed , but what was declared by the Church to be so , and as declared by the Church : which is a Province as difficult as necessary to be undertaken , to rid your hands of this difficulty . For otherwise , that Answer of yours cannot reach the Objection . And now we come to that Testimony of S. Augustine , which was produced to prove , That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamental : Which say , It is a thing founded . An erring Disputant is to be born with in other Questions , not diligently digested , not yet made firm by full Authority of the Church ; there errour is to be born with : but it ought not to proceed so farre , that it should labour to shake the Foundation it self of the Church . Now to this place his Lordship answers . 1. He speaks of a Foundation of Doctrine in Scripture , not of a Church-Definition : This appears , saith he , For few lines before , he tells us , There was a Question moved to S. Cyprian , Whether Baptism was concluded to the eighth day , as well as Circumcision ? and no doubt was made then of the beginning of sin ; and that out of this thing , about which no Question was moved , that Question that was made was answered . And again , that S. Cyprian took that which he gave in Answer from the Foundation of the Church , to confirm a Stone that was shaking ▪ Now S. Cyprian in all the Answer that he gives , hath not one word of any Definition of the Church : therefore ea res , that thing by which he answered , was a Foundation of prime and setled Scripture-Doctrine , not any Definition of the Church : Therefore that which he took out of the Foundation of the Church , to fasten the Stone that shook , was not Definition of the Church , but the Foundation of the Church it self , the Scripture upon which it is builded : as appeareth in the Milevitane Councils ; where the Rule by which Pelagius was condemned , is the Rule of Scripture . Therefore S. Augustine goes on in the same sense , that the Disputer is not to be born any longer , that shall endeavour to shake the Foundation it self , upon which the whole Church is grounded . 2. His Lordship answers , That , granting that the Churches Definition , was meant by S. Austin , yet it can never follow out of any , or all these Circumstances , that all Points defined by the Church are Fundamental , because this Foundation may be upon Humane Authority ; and that which follows , only is , That things are not to be opposed , which are made firm by full Authority of the Church ; but it cannot be thence concluded , They are therefore Fundamental in the Faith. This is the substance of his Lordships Answer to this place ; which we must consider what you reply to . First , you say , That it cannot be doubted but that S. Austin 's judgement was , that all our Faith depended on the Authority of the Church , and therefore that he that opposeth himself against this , endeavoureth to shake and destroy the very ground-work of all Divine and Supernatural Faith. This is a rare way of silencing Adversaries , by telling them , That cannot be doubted , which others can see no reason at all to believe . As in this present case you , tell me , that cannot be doubted , which I utterly deny , viz. That S. Austins judgement was , that all our Faith depended on the Authority of the Church ; and if all the proof you have for it , be only that well-known place , Ego verò Evangelio non crederem , &c. You shall in time see , what an ill choice you made of fixing your proof wholly upon that . But whoever is never so little conversant in S. Augustin's way of disputing either against the Donatists , Pelagians , or Manichees , will find very little reason to doubt , but that he made the Foundation of Faith , to be God's Word , and not the Authority of the Church . Indeed S. Austin , by way of Prescription , often makes use of the Churches Authority , not where there hath been particular Definitions , but Vniversal Consent , which he understands by the settlement , by full Authority of the Church ; but this he insists not on as the ground of Faith , but to shew the unreasonableness of mens opposing those things which the Vniversal Church was agreed in , as in this Controversie here disputed by him concerning Original Sin in Infants . Therefore if I understand S. Austin in this place , he doth not at all speak concerning what is to be owned as a matter of Faith simply in it self , but what the Churches Carriage towards Dissenters is . For after that Citation of S. Cyprian at the Conclusion of his Sermon , he addresseth himself to the Pelagians , as his dissenting Brethren ; Therefore , saith he , Let us , if possible , intreat this of our Brethren , That they would no longer call us Hereticks ; because we might as well call them so if we would , but we do not . Why was S. Austin so scrupulous of calling the Pelagians Hereticks , if he made the Definition of the Church the Foundation of Faith , and looked on this Controversie as defined by full Authority of the Church ? And after , speakes of the Churches bearing with them still , in order to their instruction ; though they were gone so far , that they were scarce to be born with ; and that the Church exercised great patience towards them ; therefore intreats them not to abuse this patience of the Church , but to be reformed , since they did exhort as Friends , and not contend as enemies . And so brings in the former words , which I thus paraphrase ; It is a thing to be taken for granted , that in disputable Points , and such as the Church hath not alwaies been agreed in , dissenters may be born with : but if direct and full opposition to the clear sense of the Church should still be suffered , it would overthrow the very Foundation of the Church it self . And that this , and no other , is the plain and genuine meaning of S. Austin , is evident to any one who impartially considers antecedents and consequents , and the natural sense of the words themselves . Before , he spake how far the Church had born with them : in the words themselves , he tells them , They must not expect the Church would alwaies bear with them , if they joyned Obstinacy with their Errours for that would ruine the Church , if she continually suffered such as violently opposed things contrary to her clearest sense : and after tells them , This is not expedient : for hitherto , it may be , our patience is not to be found fault withall ; but we ought likewise to fear , lest we be blamed for our negligence : Which words immediately follow the former . And is not this now a rare consequence , If the Church must not alwaies bear with such as oppose her , then whatever is defined by the Church is Fundamental ? For it is most evident , S. Austin speaks not of the Churches Power , in defining matters of Faith , but of the Churches proceeding with obstinate Hereticks . And therefore the Foundation spoken of , is not the Foundation of her Belief , but of her Communion ; which the continual bearing with such obstinate persons as the Pelagians were , would in time overthrow . The want of understanding this to be S. Augustine's meaning , hath made you spend many words to very little purpose , supposing all along that he speaks of the Churches Definition , and not her proceedings . Your Reply to his Lordships second Answer , runs upon the same mistake , that he speaks of Shaking the Foundation of Faith , whereas I have already shewed , that he speaks of no such thing , and therefore that , as well as the former Answer , fall to the ground together , being both built on the same mistaken Foundation . CHAP. III. The Absurdities of the Romanists Doctrine of Fundamentals . The Churches Authority must be Divine , if whatever she defines be Fundamental . His Lordship , and not the Testimony of S. Augustine , shamefully abused , three several wayes . Bellarmine not mis-cited ; the Pelagian Heresie condemned by the General Council at Ephesus . The Pope's Authority not implyed in that of Councils . The gross Absurdities of the distinction of the Church teaching and representative , from the Church taught and dissusive , in the Question of Fundamentals . The Churches Authority and Testimony in matters of Faith , distinguished . The Testimonies of Vincentius Lerinensis explained , and shewed to be directly contrary to the Roman Doctrine of Fundamentals . Stapleton and Bellarmine not reconciled by the vain endeavours used to that end . THe main Doctrine of Fundamentals being in the foregoing Chapter setled and cleared , what remains of that subject will be capable of a quicker dispatch . The scope of this Chapter , is , to assoil those difficulties , which your doctrine of Fundamentals is subject to . What little footing that hath in the place of S. Augustine , was the last thing discussed in the preceding Chapter ; and therefore must not be repeated here . His Lordship urgeth this reason why S. Augustine , or any other reasonable man could not believe , that whatever is defined by the Church is Fundamental in the Faith ; because full Church-Authority ( alwaies the time that included the Holy Apostles being past by , and not comprehended in it ) is but Church-Authority ; and Church-Authority , when it is at full Sea , is not simply divine ; therefore the sentence of it not Fundamentall in the Faith. To this you very wisely and learnedly answer ; I will not dispute with his Lordship , whether it be , or no ; because it is sufficient that such Authority be infallible . For if it be infallible , it cannot propose to us any thing as revealed by God , but what is so revealed . So that to dispute against this Authority , is in effect to take away all Authority from divine Revelation ; we having no other absolute certainty , that this or that is revealed by God , but only the Infallibility of the Church proposing , or attesting it unto us as revealed . Whence also it follows , that to doubt , dispute against , or deny any thing that is proposed by the Infallible Authority of the Church , is to doubt , dispute against , and deny that which is Fundamental in Faith. His Lordship denies the sentence of the Church to be Fundamental in the Faith , because not Divine ; you dare not say , It is Divine , but contend that it is Infallible , and from that Infallibility inferr , That Whosoever denies the Churches Infallibility , must deny something Fundamental in the Faith , because we can have no other absolute certainty that any thing is revealed by God , but only from the Churches Infallibility , So that your whole proof rests upon a very rotten and uncertain Foundation , viz. that all certainty in matters of Faith , doth depend upon the Churches Infallibility ; the falshood and unreasonableness of which principle , will at large be discovered in the succeeding Controversie . And if this fails , then the denial of the Churches Infallibility doth not inferr the denial of any thing Fundamental in the Faith , because men may be certain of all Fundamentals , without believing this Infallibility . But yet , say you , There is no necessity of asserting Church-Authority to be Divine , but only to be infallible , in order to the making what she defines to be Fundamental . A rare and excellent piece of your old Theological Reason ; as though any thing could be any further Infallible than it is Divine , or any further owned to be Divine , than as it is Infallible . I pray , acquaint us with these rare Arts of distinguishing between an Authority Divine and Infallible , when the ground of that Infallibility , is the supposition of something properly and simply Divine , which is the Infallible Assistance of God's Spirit . Is that Assistance Infallible too , but not Divine ? If it be Divine , as well as Infallible , how comes that Infallibility which flows from it not to be Divine , when the cause of it was simply and absolutely so ? Besides , what Infallible Authority is that which makes all its Definitions Fundamental , and yet is not in it self Divine ? From whence comes any thing to be Fundamental ? You tell us your self , as it is known to be revealed by God. And can any thing be known to be revealed by God , but by an Authority Divine ? especially on your principles , who make all certainty of knowing it to depend on that Churches Authority ? If so , then since the Churches sentence makes things become matters of Faith , some things may become matters of Faith , which have no Divine Authority for them . But this excellent and subtle distinction between Divine and Infallible Authority , we shall have occasion to examine afterwards . And therefore it is well you tell us , Notwithstanding that Infallible and Divine , seem to many great Divines to be terms convertible , which only acquaints us with thus much , that there are some men who understand things better than you do ; and that to do so , is to be a great Divine . And if Stapleton be one of these , we are not much offended at it ; and so far we will take the Testimonies which you produce out of him . — That which next follows depends upon the proof of the Infallibility of General Councils , which when you have sufficiently cleared , we will believe , that there can be no plain Scripture , or Evident Reason against any of their Definitions , but till then we must believe there may be room for both . Your next Section promiseth to shew us a shameful abuse of S. Augustine 's Testimony , three several waies ; But , if it appears , that not one of those waies will hold , then it only follows , that so many waies you have abused his Lordship , and not he S. Augustine . His Lordship having affirmed , That plain Scripture with evident sense , or a full demonstrative Argument , must have room , where a wrangling and erring Disputer may not be allowed it . And there 's neither of these but may convince the Definition of the Council , if it be ill founded . Over against these words he cites that sentence of S. Austin ; Quae quidem si tam manifest a monstratur , ut in dubium venire non possit , praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus , quibus in Catholicâ teneor . Ita si aliquid apertissimum in Evangelio , &c. The plain meaning of which words of S. Augustine , is , That evident Truth is to be preferred before all Church-Authority : Now a threefold Exception you take to his Lordships insisting on this Testimony . 1. That S. Austin speaks not either of plain Scripture , or evident sense , or of a full demonstrative Argument ; but addressing his speech to the Manicheans , he writes thus , Apud vos autem ubi nihil horum est quod me invitet ac teneat , sola personat veritatis pollicitatio ( and then follow the words cited by the Bishop ) quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur ; where it is plain quae , which is relative only to Truth , and not to Scripture , or any thing else . A wonderful abuse of S. Austin to make him parallel plain Scripture , evident sense , or a full Demonstrative Argument with Truth ! As though if evident Truth were more prevalent with him than all those Arguments which held him in the Catholick Church , plain Scripture , evident Sense , or Demonstrations would not be so too . What Truth can be evident , if it be not one of these three ? Do you think , there is any other way of manifesting Truth , but by Scripture , Sense or Demonstration ? if you have found out other waies , oblige the world by communicating them ; but till then , give us leave to think , that it is all one to say , Manifest Truth , as plain Scripture , evident Sense , or clear Demonstrations . But , say you , He speaks only of that Truth which the Manichees bragged of , and promised ▪ As though S. Austin would have been perswaded sooner as it came from them , than as it was Truth in it self . I suppose , S. Austin did not think their Testimony sufficient , and therefore sayes , Quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur , &c. i. e. If they could make that which they said , evident to be Truth , he would quit the Church , and adhere to them : and if this holds against the Manichees , will it not on the same reason hold every where else , viz. That manifest Truth is not to be quitted on any Authority whatsoever ? which is all his Lordship asserts . But , You offer to prove , that S. Austin , by Truth , could not mean plain Scripture ; But can you prove , that by Truth , he did not mean Truth , whereever he found it , whether in Scripture , or elsewhere ? No , say you , It cannot be meant , that by Truth , he should mean plain Scripture , in opposition to the Definitions of the Catholick Church , or General Councils ; For which , you give this Reason , because he supposes it impossible , that the Doctrine of the Catholick Church , should be contrary to Scripture ; for then men , according to S. Austin , should not believe infallibly , either the one or the other . Not the Scriptures , because they are received only upon the Authority of the Church ; nor the Church , whose Authority is infringed by the plain Scripture which is brought against her . For which you produce a large citation out of S. Austin . to that purpose . But the Answer to that is easie . For , S. Austin , when he speaks of Church-Authority , quâ infirmatâ jam nec Evangelio credere potero ; he doth not in the least understand it of any Definitions of the Church ; but of the Vniversal Tradition of the Catholick Church concerning the Scriptures from the time of Christ and his Apostles . And what plain Scriptures those are supposable , which should contradict such a Tradition as this is , is not easie to understand . But the case is quite otherwise as to the Churches Definitions ; for neither doth the Authority of Scripture at all rest upon them ; and there may be very well supposed some plain Scriptures contrary to the Churches Definitions , unless it be proved , that the Church is absolutely Infallible , and the very proof of that depending on Scripture , there must be an appeal made to plain Scripture , whether the Churches Definitions may not be contradicted by Scripture . When therefore you say , This is an impossible Supposition , that Scripture should contradict the Churches Definitions , like that of the Apostle ; If an Angel from Heaven teach otherwise , let him be accursed , Gal. 1. You must prove it as impossible for the Church to deviate from Scripture in any of her Definitions , as for an Angel to preach another Gospel ; which will be the braver attempt , because it seems so little befriended either by sense or reason . But , say you , If the Church may be an erring Definer , I would gladly know , why an erring Disputer may not oppugn her . That which you would so gladly know , is not very difficult to be resolved , by any one who understands the great difference between yielding an Internal Assent to the Definitions of the Church , and open opposing them ; for it only follows from the possibility of the Churches Errour in defining , that therefore we ought not to yield an absolute Internal Assent to all her determinations , but must examine them by the best measures of Truth , in order to our full Assent to them : but , though the Church may erre , it doth not therefore follow , that it is lawful in all cases , or for all persons , to oppugn her Definitions , especially if those Definitions be only in order to the Churches Peace : but if they be such as require Internal Assent to them , then plain Scripture , evidence of Sense , or clear Reason , may be sufficient cause to hinder the submitting to those Definitions . 2. You tell us , That his Lordship hath abused S. Austin 's Testimony , because he speaks not of the Definitions of the Church , in matters not Fundamental , according to the matter they contain ; but the Truth mentioned by him was Fundamental in its matter . This is the substance of your second Answer , which is very rational and prudent , being built on this substantial Evidence . If S. Austin doth preferr manifest Truth before things supposed Fundamental in the matter , then no doubt S. Austin would not preferr manifest Truth , before things supposed not-Fundamental in the matter . And do not you think this enough to charge his Lordship with shamefully abusing S. Austin ? But certainly , if S. Austin preferred manifest Truth before that which was greater , would he not do it before that which was incomparably less ? If he did it before , all those things which kept him in the Catholick Church , such as the consent of Nations , Miracles , Universal Tradition , which he mentions before ; do you think he would have scrupled to have done it , as to any particular Definitions of the Church ? These are therefore very excellent waies of vindicating the Fathers Testimonies , from having any thing of sense or reason in them . 3. You say , He hath abused S. Austin , by putting in a wrangling Disputer : But I wonder where his Lordship ever sayes , that S. Austin mentions any such in the Testimony cited . For his words are these . But plain Scripture , with evident Sense , or a full Demonstrative Argument must have room , where a wrangling and erring Disputer may not be allowed it . And there 's neither of these ( over against these words , he referrs to S. Austin's Testimony , and not the foregoing ) but may convince the Definition of the Council , if it be ill founded . When you therefore ask , Where the wrangling Disputer is to be found ; had it not been for the help of this Cavil , we might have been to seek for him . But when you have been enquiring for him , at last you cry out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Oh! I see now : And you are the fittest man to find him out that I know . You say , This is done to distinguish him from such a Disputer as proceeds solidly and demonstratively against the Definitions of the Church , when they are ill founded ; which S. Austin is so far from supposing that one may do , that he judges him a mad man , who disputes against any thing quod universa Ecclesia sentit ; and that they have hearts , not only of Stone , but even of Devils , who resist so great a manifestation of Truth , as is made by an Oecumenical Council , for of that he speaks . Your design is , to prove , that S. Austin doth not admit of any plea from Scripture , Sense , or Reason , against any Definitions of the Church , for which you first produce that known place in which S. Austin accounts it madness to oppose the universal practices of the Church , which will hold for your purpose , as far as rites and matters of Faith have any Analogy with each other ; your latter Testimony seems more to the purpose to all persons who do not examine it , and to none else . For , although you seemed very careful to prevent any examination of the place by a false citation of Epist. 153. for 152. yet that hath not hindered my discovering your fraud , in asserting , that S. Austin there speaks of an Oecumenical Council . For there is not so much as any thing like it in that Epistle . I acknowledge those words to be found there which you produce , Nulla excusatio jam remansit : nimium dura , nimium diabolica sunt hominum corda , quae adhuc tantae manifestationi veritatis obsistunt . But there needs no more to confute the most of your Testimonies out of the Fathers , but to mention the occasion of their being produced , or the scope and design of the Authors , as is most evident in this place . For this Epistle is written in the name of Silvanus , Valentinus , Aurelius , Innocentius , Maximinus , Optatus , Augustinus , Donatus , and other Bishops , for satisfaction of the Donatists concerning the proceedings at the Council of Carthage ; For the Donatist Bishops being therein baffled , had dispersed among their Proselytes many false rumours of that Council , and of their being circumvented by their Catholick Adversaries . To disprove which in this Epistle , they first shew the fraud and falsitie of the Donatists , and then the Integrity of their own proceedings , by the choice of seven persons on either side , who should speak in behalf of the rest ; and seven others as Counsellors to them ; and four Notaries on either side , and four other persons who should keep the Records to prevent all fraud . Besides all this , every one was to subscribe in his own words , that no man might complain that any thing was corrupted afterwards ; which things being dispersed , while the persons themselves lived , there was no probability Posterity should be deceived in the report of them . And then follow those words ; That no excuse hath now been left , but that their hearts are too hard and diabolical , who could gainsay so clear a manifestation of Truth . Is it not now a rare consequence from hence to inferr , That it is not lawful upon any ground of Scripture , Sense or Reason , to dispute the Definitions of General Councils ? Whereas no such thing was ever mentioned as a General Council , as appears by the very next words , where he sayes expresly , it was only a Council of African Bishops ; and elsewhere S. Austin tells the Donatists , that they never durst appeal to a General Council . And supposing the Council never so Oecumenical , he mentions nothing of the Definitions of it , but the manner of its proceedings . So that the greatest Truth hereby manifested , is , your design to abuse his Lordship and the Reader together . Since you disown the distinction of things , being Fundamental in the matter and in the manner , I shall not trouble you with shewing you the weakness of it : but it were easie to manifest it as good as that you embrace of the material and formal Object , which hath been sufficiently refuted in the precedent chapter , and I have no leisure for repetitions . His Lordship endeavouring further to shew , What little Foundation your Doctrine of Fundamentals hath in the forecited place of S. Augustine ; urgeth this as an Argument against it , That if all Points defined by the Church , are therefore Fundamental , because that is not to be shaken , which is setled by full Authority of the Church ; then it must follow , That the Point there spoken of , the remission of Original Sin , in the Baptism of Infants , was defined when S. Augustine wrote this , by a full sentence of a General Council . You deny the Consequence ; for , say you , By Authority of the Church you mean ( and not unproperly ) the Church generally practising this Doctrine , and defining it in a National Council confirmed by the Pope . For this was plena authoritas Ecclesiae , though not plenissima ; and to dispute against what was so practised and defined , is , in S. Augustine's sense , to shake the Foundation of the Church , if not wholly to destroy it . It seems a little hard to understand what you mean by the Churches being ( not unproperly ) said to practise this Doctrine : What , did the Church practise the Doctrine of the remission of Original Sin in Infants ? That a Church should practise a matter of Faith , seems a little wonderful ; but that it should do this and that not unproperly , increaseth the admiration . And we might think it a peculiar priviledge belonging to your Church , but that she is not so much used to practise things more capable of it . And can you think it enough to run us down , by telling us , That the Pope , with a National Council , hath defined it , unless you first prove , that the Pope , and a National Council , have as much authority as a General Council , which you pretend to be infallible ; and if a National Council with the Pope be so too , I wonder to what end General Councils are ever call'd , since the Infallibility may be had at a much cheaper rate . And by the same reason you make National Councils Infallible , you may do Provincial , if the Pope concurrs with them ; and , by the same reason , the Colledge of Cardinals may be Infallible without any of them , because of the Pope's concurrence with them . And so , all this business of Councils , is but a formal piece of Pageantry , since all the Infallibility they have by this pretence , is conferred by the Pope in his concurrence ; whose Infallibility doth not depend on the presence of a Council ; and therefore he must be as Infallible without a Council , as with it . So that at last this Discourse comes to this issue , He that shakes the Pope's Infallibility , shakes the Foundation of the Church : and prove but this to have been S. Augustine's meaning , you will highly advance the interest of your cause . But , whatever S. Austin's meaning be , you think your self engaged to vindicate Bellarmine , who , his Lordship had said , was deceived , in saying , That the Pelagian Heresie was never condemned in an Oecumenical Council , but only in Nationals . For , saith he , While the Pelagians stood out impudently against National Councils , some of them defended Nestorius , which gave occasion to the first Ephesine Council , to excommunicate and depose them . To which you answer . 1. It is not credible , that Bellarmine , who writ so much of Controversie , should not have read that Council ; nor can there be any suspicion of his con●ealing the matter , had he found it there , &c. and therefore you suspend your Assent till the Council's words be produced . 2. You tell us , That it is not enough to prove that Pelagianism was condemned by a General Council , because some who were Pelagians were ; but , say you , They were condemned not for Pelagianism , but Nestorianism , and therefore his Lordship shoots wide of the mark . Your Argument from Bellarmine will have no great force with them , who see no reason to admire his fidelity ; and they who enquire into the matter of fact , in the present debate , will have cause to suspect it . The short account whereof is this . After that Julianus , Florus , Orontius , Fabius and others , had been deposed and banished in the Western Churches , for the Pelagian Heresie , they fly to Constantinople , and shroud themselves under the protection of Nestorius the Patriarch there , who secretly favoured them , and writ several Letters to Pope Celestine in behalf of them : who is supposed to have received his Doctrine of the person of Christ from the Pelagians . But when he saw that no good was to be done by these Letters , but by the daily spreading of Nestorianism , the Emperour was forced to summon a Council at Ephesus , A. D. 431. The Pelagians accompany Nestorius thither , and joyn with Johannes Antiochenus , and his party , in opposition to the Synod . But the Council understanding the proceedings which had been in the Western Churches against the Pelagians , ratifies and confirms their deposition , as appears by the Synodal Epistle of the Council to Pope Celestine , which is extant in the Acts of the Ephesine Council : and in the Epistles of Cyril of Alexandria . And besides this , some of the Canons of that Council , do equally concern Celestius and Nestorius ; the first Canon decreeing as well the favourers of Celestius as Nestorius to be excommunicate ; and the fourth dereeing the Deposition of all such who should embrace either of them . And therefore it is truly said by Jansenius , that the Pelagian Heresie , and the Bishops who favoured it , were again condemned by an Oecumenical Council . And thence Prosper in the Epitaph of the Nestorian and Pelagian Heresies , as he makes the Nestorian only an Off-spring of the Pelagian ; so he makes both of them to fall , and be condemned together . From whence it appears , that the Pelagians were not condemned in the Ephesine Council meerly for Nestorianism , but for their proper and peculiar sentiments ; the former deposition of them being ratified by the Council , and a new Canon made to that purpose for the future . And now let the Reader judge whether his Lordship or Bellarmine were herein the more mistaken . His Lordship adds ; If this Heresie were condemned only by a National Council , then the full Authority of the Church here , is no more than the full Authority of this Church of Africk . And I hope , saith he , That Authority doth doth not make all Points defined by it , to be Fundamental . You will say , Yes : if that Council be confirmed by the Pope . And then I must ever wonder , why S. Augustine should say , The full Authority of the Church ; and not bestow one word upon the Pope , by whose Authority only that Council , as all other , have their fulness of Authority in your judgement . An inexpiable Omission ; if this Doctrine concerning the Pope were true . To this you answer , That there was no need of any special mention of the Pope , in speaking of the Authority of the Church ; because his Authority is alwaies chiefly supposed , as being Head of the whole Church . But by whom was this supposed ? by you , or by S. Augustine ? Can you prove that S. Austin , or any of the African Fathers did ever suppose any such thing , that the Pope being Head of the Church , his Authority is chiefly supposed in the Acts of National Councils ? Where was the supposal of this Authority in the Dispute between the African Fathers , and the Popes , in the case of Appeals ? These are suppositions , only to be obtruded upon ignorant Novices ; and such , who look no further into Antiquity , than the Implicit Faith in their Priests will give them leave . But what a stranger to all true Antiquity this supposition of the Pope's being Head of the Church , is , we shall see abundantly , when we come to the Controversie of the Pope's Authority . Yet granting the Supposition true ( than which nothing can be more false ) when the main strength lyes not in the bare Definition of a National Council , which you grant of it self hath not full Authority , but in the confirmation of that Decision by the Pope which makes that Authority full , which was not so before ; Was it not necessary to declare , that the Pope did concurr to the giving it full Authority , which without it could not be had ? You do not say , That all National Councils have this full Authority , not being confirmed by the Pope ; if therefore S. Augustine designed to shew that Council to have full Authority , the only way , to prove it , was to produce the Pope's Confirmation of it ; which cannot therefore be otherwise looked on , than as an inexpiable Omission , if your Doctrine be true ; for he left out that which was only pertinent and material to the business . Your parallel between S. Austin and your self ( which is a very worthy one ) in leaving out the mention of the Pope's Authority when it is understood , will then hold when you produce as great evidence that S. Austin was a Jesuit , as we have from your principles that you are . When you give as manifest proof , that the Pope's Power is necessary to all Definitions of Councils , as there is in our Laws for our Kings assenting to Acts of Parliament ; we may give you leave to parallel the Omission of the express mention of one with the other . If the Definitions of Ancient Councils did run in the name of Pope and Council , as our Acts of Parliament , in the name of the King , and both Houses , we might easily say , the Authority of them came from the Pope , as of these from the King ; but there is nothing of that nature , but much of the contrary , as will appear in due time . When you therefore prove that the Pope's Power is implied , though it be not mentioned , you must prove it by some evident Confession , that no Authority of a Council was full , unless the Pope concurred with it : else you may as well say , That the great Mogul hath no full Authority to decree any thing without the Pope's consent ; for I dare say , There is no denial of it in any of his Laws . And yet , that is more than can be said here , for we have sufficient testimony from the records of that age , That the Pope's Authority was not supposed necessary to Councils , from his being Head of the Church . What follows p. 34. n. 5 , 6. depends wholly upon the often-mention'd distinction of the Formal and Material Object of Faith ; the foundation of which , having been already removed , whatever you offer to build upon it , must of necessity fall to the ground ; but I shall not follow your ill example , in making tedious Repetitions , and then cry out , You are forced to it . His Lordship urgeth further , from the Romanists Doctrine of Fundamentals , That the Churches Definition , must be the Churches Foundation . His words are ; Besides , whatsoever is Fundamental in the Faith , is Fundamental to the Church , which is one by the Vnity of Faith : Therefore , if every thing defined by the Church be Fundamental in the Faith , then the Churches Definition , is the Churches Foundation . And so , upon the matter , the Church can lay her own Foundation , and then the Church must be in absolute and perfect Being , before so much as her Foundation is laid . To which you answer ; But what Absurdity is it to grant , That the Definition of the Church teaching , is the Foundation of the Church taught ? or , the Definition of the Church representative , is the Foundation of the Church diffusive ? I pray , inform us whether this Church teaching and representing , be the same Church with the Church taught and diffusive , or one different from it : If it be different , it must have a different Foundation , and so must be fundamentally different ; if it be the same , then the Church must still lay its own Foundation : for whatever becomes Fundamental by the Definition of the Church , is , I suppose , to be believed as necessary , i. e. Fundamental , by the Church teaching and representing , as well as taught and diffusive . Unless you think those who decree things , to be believed by all in order to salvation , do exclude themselves out of that number ; and therefore , though it be necessary for all others to believe it , it is still indifferent for them , whether they will believe it or no. And therefore , were I of your Church , I should heartily wish my self of the teaching and representative Church ; for then others might go to Hell for not believing that , which I might chuse whether I would or no. What an excellent invention this is , to make the Pope and Cardinals go to Heaven , though they be Atheists and Infidels ? For , you tell us , we can have no assurance of any matter of Faith , but from the Infallibility of your Church ; this Infallibility lyes not in the taught and diffusive , but in the teaching and representative Church ; and this distinction here supposes , that what is made the Foundation of the Church taught , is not the Foundation of the Church teaching , i. e. what is necessary to Salvation for one , is not so for the other ; for that is your meaning of Fundamentals . Now , since all things become necessary to be believed by the Church diffusive , upon the Authority of the Church representative ; it necessarily follows , from this distinction , That nothing at all is necessary to be believed by the Church representative . And is not this a rare Church the mean while ? but what is it which makes it a Church ? for though it represents and teaches , yet it is still call'd a Church teaching and representative : If it be a Church , something must make it so : What can make it so , if not the belief of what is necessary to Salvation ? And if it doth not believe all that is necessary to Salvation , the Church diffusive is much more truly a Church , than the representative : If it doth believe all that is necessary , then it must believe its own Definitions , because those are supposed to be so ; and consequently , if those be Fundamental , the Church must still lay her own Foundation . Or else these consequences follow . 1. That may be a true Church , which doth not believe all things necessary to Salvation . 2. The Church teaching is not bound to believe that which she teaches , but only the Church taught . 3. That may be the same Church which Fundamentally differs from it self . 4. When the Church defines a thing to be necessary , she doth not believe it to be necessary , but it becomes necessary after her Definition . For , I pray , satisfie us as to this Teaching Church , when she defines something necessary to be believed in order to Salvation , which was not so defined before ; Doth she at that Instant of her Definition believe that to be necessary to Salvation , or doth she not ? If she doth , then it is necessary before her Definition ; and so the belief of it as necessary , cannot depend upon it : But if she believes it only to be necessary , because she defines it to be so ; then she cannot believe it to be necessary , till she hath defined it , and consequently defines that to be necessary , which she believes not to be necessary : and so defines contrary to her own judgement and belief . Let me therefore ask here some more Questions , which I doubt you will think troublesome , If the Church representative believed that not to be necessary to Salvation , which she defined to be necessary to Salvation , was she infallible in that belief or no ? If she was not infallible , then at that time what assurance could men have , of any matter of Faith , since you tell us , That must be had from the Churches Infallibility ? If she were infallible , then either in some things only , or in all she believed ? if only in some things we ought to know what she is infallible in , and what not , lest we deceive our selves in believing her infallible in that in which she is not infallible ? If in all things , then she is infallible in believing that not to be necessary to Salvation , which yet she infallibly defines to be necessary to Salvation : And so the Church may infallibly define that to be true , which at the very moment of that Definition , she infallibly believes to be false . All these are the just and excellent Consequences of this useful Distinction of yours , which you look on as the only happy Expedient , whereby to free your self from asserting , that the Church , by making things Fundamental , by her Definitions , doth thereby lay her own Foundation . But as absurd and unreasonable as this is , you would seem to have something to say for it : for you tell us , That the Pastors , in all Ages preserving Christian People from being carried away with every wind of Doctrine , are a Foundation to them of constancy in Doctrine . Wonderfully subtle ! it is pity such excellent reasoning should want the ornaments of Mood and Figure : but thus it is in them . If the Pastors of the Church may be the means of preserving men from errours , then the Definition of the Church teaching , is the Foundation of the Church taught : which in short amounts to this ; If the Pastors of the Church may be a Foundation of mens constancy in Doctrine , then they may be a Foundation of mens inconstancy in Doctrine . If this be not that you mean , I can make no sense of what you say ; and if it be , let any one else make Sense of it , that hath a gift for it . For , by constancy in Doctrine , is meant , the adhering to that Doctrine which God hath revealed as necessary in his Word , but by the Definitions of the teaching Church , you understand a Power to make more things necessary to the Salvation of all than Christ hath made ; so that , joyn these two together , the Consequence is this : If the Pastors of the Church may , and ought to keep men from believing any other Doctrine , then they have power to impose another Doctrine ; which things are so contradictious to each other , that none but one of your faculty would have ventured to have set one to prove the other . Therefore when you would prove any thing by this Argument , your Medium must be this , That the Pastors of the Church are a Foundation of constancy in Doctrine , by laying New Foundations of Doctrines by her Definitions , which is just as if you would prove , That the best way to keep a House entire , without any additions , is to build another house adjoyning to it . But , say you further , Were not the Apostles in their times ( who were Ecclesia docens ) by their Doctrine and Decrees , a Foundation to the Church which was taught by them ? Doth not S. Paul expresly affirm it , superaedificati supra Fundamentum Apostolorum , &c. To which I answer . 1. That the Apostles were not therefore said to be the Foundation on which they were built who believed on that Doctrine , because , by virtue of their Power , they could define or decree any thing to be necessary to Salvation , which was not so before ; but , because they were the Instruments whereby the things which were necessary to Salvation , were conveyed to them . And because their Authority , by virtue of their Mission , and the Power accompanying it , was the means whereby they were brought to believe the Doctrin of the Gospel , as in it self true . But there is a great deal of difference between teaching what is necessary to Salvation , and making any thing necessary to Salvation , which was before , meerly because it is taught by them . 2. I grant , that those things did become necessary to be believed , which the Apostles taught ; but , it was either because the things were in themselves necessary , in order to the end declared , viz. Man's Salvation , or else it was on the account of that evidence which the Apostles gave , that they were persons immediately imployed by God , to deliver those Doctrines to them . But still here is nothing becoming necessary , by virtue of a Decree or Definition , but by virtue of a Testimony , that what they delivered , came from God. 3. When the Apostles delivered these things , the Doctrine of the Gospel was not made known to the world ; but they were chosen by God , and infallibly assisted for that end , that they might reveal it to the world : And this is certainly a very different case from that , when the Doctrine of Salvation is fully revealed and delivered down to us in unquestionable records . And therefore , if you will prove any thing to your purpose , you must prove as great and as divine assistance of the Spirit in the Church representative of all Ages , as was in the Apostles in the first Age of the Christian Church . 4. When you say from hence , That the Apostles , as the teaching Church , laid the Foundation of the Church taught ; that can only be understood of those Christians who became a Church , by the Apostles preaching the Doctrine of the Gospel to them : but this is quite a different thing from laying the Foundation of a Church already in being as your Church , taught , and diffusive , is supposed to be . Can you tell us , where the Apostles are said to lay further Foundations for Churches already constituted ; that they made or declared more things necessary to Salvation , than were so antecedently to their being a Church ? But this is your case , you pretend a power in your Church representative , to make more things necessary to Salvation , than were before to a Church already in Being , and therefore supposed to believe all things necessary to Salvation . You see therefore , what a vast disparity there is in the case , and how far the Apostles declaring the Doctrine of Christ , and thereby founding Churches , is from being an Argument that the representative Church , may lay the Foundation of the Church diffusive , which being a Church already , must have its Foundation laid before all new Decrees and Definitions of the teaching Church . So that still it unavoidably follows upon your principles , That the Church must lay her own Foundation , and then the Church must have been in absolute and perfect Being , before so much as her Foundation is laid . Your weak endeavour of retorting this upon the Bishop , because of the Apostles teaching the Church of their Age , only shews , that you have a good will to say something in behalf of so bad a cause , but that you want ability to do it : as appears by the Answers already given , as to the difference of the Apostles case and yours . The subsequent Section , which is spent in a weak defence of A. C ' s . words , hath the less cause to be particularly examined ; and besides , its whole strength lyes on things sufficiently discussed already , viz. the sufficient Proposition of matters of Faith , and the Material and Formal Object of it . That which follows pretending to something New , and which looks like Argumentation , must be more distinctly considered . Cs. words are , That if one may deny , or doubtfully dispute against any one Determination of the Church , then he may against another , and another , and so against all : since all are made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation , sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church ; which being weakned in any one , cannot be firm in any other . To which his Lordship answers , 1. That this is understood only of Catholick Maxims , which are properly Fundamental , by Vincentius Lirinensis , from whom this Argument is derived . 2. He denies , that all Determinations of the Church are made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation . 3. He denies , that all Determinations of the Church are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church . Of each of these he gives his reasons ; the examination and defence of which , is all that remains of this Chapter . To the first , you answer three things ( for I must digest your Answers for you . ) 1. That there is no evidence , that A. C. borrowed this from Vincentius , and you give an excellent reason for it , because good wits may both hit on the same thing , or at least come near it ; which , had it been said of your self , had been more unquestionable : but , to let that pass , 2. You tell us , That the Doctrine is true , whosoever said it . For which , you give this reason . For the same reason which permits not our questioning , or denying the prime Maxims of Faith , permits not our questioning , or denying any other Doctrine declared by the Church ; because it is not the greatness or smalness of the matter , that moves us to give firm Assent in Points of Faith ; but the Authority of God speaking by the Church . To which I answer , that all this runs upon a Supposition false in it self , which is , That all our Assurance in matters of Faith , depends upon the Infallible Authority of the present Church ; which being granted , I would not deny ; but , supposing that Infallibility absolute , on the same reason I believe one thing on the Churches Authority , I must believe all . For the case were the same then , as to the Church , which we say , it is as to the Scriptures ; he that believes any thing , on the account of its being contained in that Book as the Word of God , must believe every thing he is convinced to be therein contained , whether the matter be in it self small or great ; because the ground of his belief , is the Authority of God , revealing those things to us . And if therefore you could prove such a Divine Authority , constantly resident in the Church , for determining all matters of Faith , I grant your consequence would hold : but that is too great a boon to be had for begging , and that is all the way you use for it here . If you offer to prove it afterwards , our Answers shall be ready to attend you . But at present , let it suffice to tell you , That we believe no Article of Faith at all upon the Churches Infallible Authority ; and therefore , though we deny what the Church proposeth , it follows not that we are any more liable to question the truth of any Article any further than the Churches Authority reaches in it ; i. e. we deny that any thing becomes an Article meerly upon her account . But now , if you remove the Argument from the present Churches Infallible Authority , to the Vniversal Churches Testimony , we then tell you , That he who questions a clear , full , universal Tradition of the whole Church from Christ's time to this , will , by the same reason , doubt of all matters of Faith , which are conveyed by this Testimony to us . But then we must further consider , That we are bound by virtue of the Churches Testimony , to believe nothing any further , than it appears to have been the constant , full , Vniversal Testimony of the Church , from the time of Christ and his Apostles . Whatever therefore you can make appear to have been received as a necessary Article of Faith in this manner , we embrace it , but nothing else ; and on the other side , we say , That whoever doubts , or denies this Testimony , will doubt of all matters of Faith , because the ground and rule of Faith , the Scriptures , is conveyed to us only through this Universal Tradition . 3. You answer , That his Lordship mistakes Vincentius Lerinensis his meaning , and falsifies his testimony thrice at least . Whereof the first is in rendring [ de Catholico dogmate ] of Catholick Maxims : and here a double most dreadful charge is drawn up against his Lordship ; the first from the accusation of Priscian , and the second of no less Authours , than Rider and the English Lexicons : the first is , for translating the Singular Number by the Plural ; whereas our most Reverend Orbilius himself in the following page , tells us , that this Catholicum dogma , Vincentius speaks of , contains the whole Systeme of the Catholick Faith , and in that Systeme some are Fundamentals , some Superstructures , ( both Plurals ) yet all these contained in this one singular , Dogma : but it was his Lordships great mishap not to have his education in the Schools of the Jesuites , else he might have escaped the lash for this most unpardonable oversight of rendring verbum multitudinis by our Authours own confession ( who makes it larger too then his Lordship doth ; for his Lordship saith , it contains only Fundamentals , but our Authour Superstructures too ) by the Plural Number . But the second fault is worse then this ; for , saith our Authour very gravely and discreetly with his rod in his hand , But in what Authour learnt he , that Dogma signifies only Maxims , were it in the Plural number ? Dogma according to our English Lexicons , Rider , and others , signifies a Decree , or common received Opinion , whether in prime , or less principal matters . What a learned dispute are we now fallen into ? But I see you were resolved to put all , but Boys and Paedagogues out of all likelyhood of confuting you ; For those are only the persons among us , who deal in Rider and English Lexicons . I see now , there is some hopes , that the orders of the Inquisition may have better Latin , then that against Mr. White had ; since our old Jesuites begin to be so well versed in such Masters of the Latin tongue . How low is Infallibility fallen , that we must appeal for knowing what dogma fidei is , to the definition not of Popes and Councils , but of Rider and English Lexicons ? But it is ill jesting with our Orbilius in so severe a humour , that his Grace of Canterbury cannot scape his lash for not consulting Riders Dictionary for the signification of Dogma . But our Authour passeth , and we must attend him , out of his Grammatical into the Theological School ; and there tells us , That the Ecclesiastical signification of Dogma , extends it self to all things established in the Church , as matters of Faith , whether Fundamentals or Superstructures ; and for this , Scotus is cited ( somewhat a better Authour than Rider ) who calls Transubstantiation , Dogma fidei . I begin to believe now , that Dogma is a very large word , and Fides much larger , that can hold so prodigious a thing as Transubstantiation within them . But , notwithstanding what Rider and Scotus say , None so able to explain Vincentius his meaning , as Vincentius himself . To him therefore at last our Authour appeals and tells us , That he declares in other places , that he means by Dogma such things as in general belong to Christian Faith without distinction . But doth Vincentius any where by Dogma mean any such things which were not judged necessary by the ancient and Primitive Church , but become necessary to be believed upon the Churches Definitions ? Nothing can possibly be imagined more directly contrary to the design of his whole Book then that is , when he appeals still for matters to be believed to Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent ; and to be sure , all these are required to whatever he means by a Dogma fidei : if you therefore can produce any testimonies out of his Book , which can be supposed in the least to favour the power of the Church in her new Definitions of matters of Faith , you may justly challenge to your self the name of an excellent Invention , who can find that in his Book , which all other persons find the directly contrary to . Your first citation is out of ch . 33. ( not 23. as you quote it , or some one else for you ) where he is explaining what St. Paul means by , Prophanas vocum novitates . Vocum , saith he , i. e. Dogmatum , rerum , sententiarum novitates ; quae sunt vetustati , quae antiquitati contrariae . I shall not scruple to grant you that Vincentius by Dogmata here , doth mean such things as the Definitions of your Church are , for he speaks of those things , which all Christians , who have a care of their Salvation are to avoid ; of such things as are contrary to all Antiquity ; and such kind of Dogmata , I freely grant the Definitions of your Church to be . Your second citation is as happy as the first , cap. 28. Crescat ( saith he , speaking of the Church ) sed in suo duntaxat genere , in eodem scilicet Dogmate , eodem sensu , eâdemque sententiâ . An excellent place , no doubt , to prove it in the Churches power to define new Articles of Faith ; because the Church must alwaies remain in the same Belief , sense , and opinion . When his words but little foregoing are , Profectus sit ille fidei non permutatio , which without the help of English Lexicons you would willingly render by leaving out that troublesome Particle non , that the best progress in Faith is by adding new Articles , though it be as contrary to reason as it is to the sense of Vincentius Lerinensis . If Vincentius saith , that the Pelagians erred in Dogmate fidei ( which words neither appear cap. 24. nor 34. ) he gives this reason for it , because they contradict the Vniversal sense of Antiquity , and the Catholick Church , cap. 34. So that still Vincentius , where-ever he speaks of this Dogma fidei , speaks in direct opposition to your sense of it , for new definitions of the Church in matters of Faith. There being scarce any book extant which doth more designedly overthrow this opinion of yours , then that of Vincentius doth . To shew therefore how much you have wronged his Lordship , and what little advantage comes to your cause by your insisting on Vincentius his testimony : I shall give a brief account both of his Design and Book . The design of it , is , to shew what wayes one should use to prevent being deceived , by such who pretend to discover new matters of Faith , and those he assigns to be these two , setling ones faith , on the Authority of Scripture , and the tradition of the Catholick Church . But since men would enquire , The Canon of Scripture being perfect , and abundantly sufficient for all things , what need can there be of Ecclesiastical tradition ? He answers , For finding out the true sense of Scripture , which is diversly interpreted , by Novatianus , Photinus , Sabellius , Donatus , Arrius , Eunomius , Macedonius , Apollinaris , &c. In the following Chapter he tells us , what he means by this Ecclesiastical tradition , Quod ubique , quod semper , ab omnibus creditum est , that which hath Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent , joyning in the belief of it . And can any new Definitions of the Church pretend to all , or any of these ? He after enquires , what is to be done in case a particular Church separates it self from the communion of the Catholick ? He answers , We ought to prefer the health of the whole body , before any pestiferous or corrupted member . But in case any Novel Contagion should spread over , not a part only , but endanger the whole Church ? then , saith he , a man must adhere to Antiquity , which cannot be deceived with a pretence of Novelty . But if in Antiquity , we find out the errour of two or three particular Persons , or City , or Province ; what is then to be done ? then , saith he , the Decrees of General Councils are to be preferred : But in case there be none ? then he adds , The general consent of the most approved writers of the Church is to be enquired after ; and what they all with one consent , openly , frequently , constantly held , writ , and taught , that let every man look on himself as bound to believe without hesitation . Now then , prove but any one of the new Articles of Faith in the Tridentine Confession by these rules of Vincentius ; and it will appear , that you have produced his Testimony to some purpose : else nothing will be more strong and forcible against all your pretences , than this discourse of Vincentius is ; which he inlarges by the examples of the Donatists , Arrians , and others , in the following Chapters ; in which still his scope is to assert Antiquity , and condemn all Novelties in matters of Faith under any pretext whatsoever . For this , ch . 12 , 14. he cites a multitude of Texts of Scripture ; forbidding our following any other Doctrine , but what was delivered by Christ and his Apostles ; and Anathematizing all such as such as should Preach any other Gospel : and concludes that , with this remarkable speech ; It never was , never is , never will be , lawful to propose any thing ( as matter of Faith ) to Christian Catholicks , besides what they have received . And it was , is , and will be becoming Christians to Anathematize all such who declare any thing but what they have received . Do you think this man was not of your minde in the Doctrine of Fundamentals ? could he do otherwise then believe it in the Churches power to define things necessary to Salvation , who would have all those Anathematized , who pretend to declare any thing as matter of Faith , but what they received as such from their Ancestours ? And after he hath at large exemplified this in the Photinian , Nestorian , Apollinarian Heresies , and shewed how little the Authority of private Doctors , how excellent soever , is to be relyed on in matters of faith ; he concludes again with this , Whatsoever the Catholick Church held universally , that and that alone is to be held by particular persons . And after admires at the madness , blindness , perverseness of those , who are not contented with the once delivered and ancient rule of Faith ; but are still seeking new things , and alwaies are itching to add , alter , take away , some thing of Religion ( or matter of Faith ) . As though that were not a Heavenly Doctrine , which may suffice to be once revealed ; but an earthly institution , which cannot be perfect , but by continual correction and amendment . Is not this man now a fit person to explain the sense of your Churches new Definitions , and Declarations in matters of Faith ? And have not you hit very right on this sense of Dogma , when here he understands by it that Doctrine of Faith , which is not capable of any addition or alteration ? And thus we understand sufficiently what he means by the present controverted place ; that if men reject any part of the Catholick Doctrine , they may as well refuse another , and another , till at last they reject all . By the Catholick Doctrine , or Catholicum dogma , there he means the same with the Coeleste dogma before , and by both of them understands that Doctrine of Faith which was once revealed by God , and which is capable of no addition at all , having Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent , going along with it ; and when you can prove that this Catholicum dogma , doth extend beyond those things which his Lordship calls Catholick Maxims , or properly Fundamental Truths , you will have done something to the purpose , which as yet you have failed in . And thus we say , Vincentius his rule is good , though we do not say , that he was infallible in the application of it , but that he might mention some such things to have had Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent which had not so , such as the business of not rebaptizing Hereticks , and the observation of Easter , which you instance in . And withall we add , though nothing is to be admitted for matter of Faith which wants those three marks , yet some things may have all three of them , and yet be no matters of Faith at all ; and therefore not at all pertinent to this question ; Such as those things are which you insist on , as deposita dogmata ; which doubtless is a rare way of probation . viz. to shew that by dogmata deposita , Vincentius means some articles of Faith which are not Fundamental in the matter of them ; and for that make choice of such instances which are no matters of faith at all : but either ritual traditions , or matters of order , such as the form and matter of Sacraments , the Hierarchy of the Church , Paedobaptism , not rebaptizing Hereticks , the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary . For that of the Canon of Scripture , it will be elsewhere considered , as likewise those other Church-traditions . How the Church should still keep , hoc idem quod antea , as you confess she ought , and yet make some things necessary to be believed by all , which before her declaration were not so , is somewhat hard to conceive ; and yet both these you assert together . Is that which is necessary to be believed by all , the same with that which was not necessary to be so believed ? if the same measure of Faith will not serve after , which would have done before , is there not an alteration made : Yes , you grant , as to our believing , but not as to the thing , for that is the same it was . But do you in the mean time consider what kind of thing that is which you speak of , which is a thing propounded to be believed , and considered in no other respect , but as it is revealed by God in order to our believing it ; now when the same thing which was required only to be believed implicitely , i. e. not at all necessarily , is now propounded to be believed expresly and necessarily ; the Fundamental nature of it , as an object of Faith , is altered . For that which you call implicite Faith , doth really imply as to all those things to be believed implicitely , that there is an indifferency , whether they be believed or no ; nothing being necessary to be believed , but what is propounded to be expresly believed : Which being so , Can it be imagined there should be a greater alteration in a matter of Faith , then from its being indifferent whether it were believed or no , to become necessary to be expresly believed by all in order to Salvation ? And where there is such an alteration as this in the thing to be believed , who can without the help of a very commodious implicite Faith believe , that still this is hoc idem quod antea , the very same as a matter of Faith , which it was before . Though the Church were careful to preserve every Iota and tittle of Sacred Doctrines ; yet I hope it follows not , that every Iota and tittle is of as much consequence , and as necessary to be believed , as the main substance of Christian Doctrine . Although when any Doctrine was violently opposed in the Church she might declare her owning it by some overt act ; yet thence it doth not follow , that the internal assent to every thing so declared is as necessary , as to that proposition , that Jesus is the Son of God , the belief of which the Scripture tells us was the main design of the writing of Scripture . That General Councils , rightly proceeding , may be great helps to the Faith of Christians , I know none that deny ; but that by vertue of their definitions any thing becomes necessary to be believed , which was not so before , remains yet to be proved . You much wonder his Lordship should father that saying on Vincentius , That , If new Doctrines be added to the old , the Church , which is Sacrarium veritatis , the repository of verity , may be changed in Lupanar errorum , which , his Lordship saith , he is loth to English : for you tell us , That Vincentius is so far from entertaining the least thought of it , that he presently adds , Deus avertat , God forbid it should be so . A stout Inference ! Just as if one should say , The Church of Rome may be in time overspread with the Mahumetan Religion , but God forbid , it should be so ; Were he not an excellent Disputer , who should hence inferr it impossible ever to be so . What you add out of Vincentius only proves , that he did not believe it was so in his time , but doth not in the least prove , that he believed it impossible that ever it should be so afterwards ; but notwithstanding all that you say , it is evident enough , that Vincentius believed it a very supposable Case , by that question he puts elsewhere . What if any new contagion doth not only endeavour to defile a part only , but the whole Church ? in which , he saith , we are to adhere to antiquity . If you answer , he speaks only of an endeavour : it is soon replyed , That he speaks of such an endeavour as puts men to dispute a question , what they are to do in such a Case , and he resolves at that time , they are not to adhere to the judgement of the present Church , but to that of Antiquity , which is all we desire in that Case , viz. That the present Church may so far add to matters of Faith , that we can in no reason be obliged to rely only upon her judgement . Wherein we are to consider , the Question is not of that you call the diffusive , but the representative Church , all which may be overspread , and yet but a part of the other ; but yet if that Church , whose judgement you say only is to be relyed on may be so infected , it is all one as to those who are to be guided by her judgement , whether the other be or no. For here eadem est ratio non entis & non apparentis , because it is not the reality , but the manifestation which is the ground of mens relying on the Churches judgement . So that if as to all outward appearance and all judicial acts of the Church , she may recede from the ancient Faith , and add novitia veteribus , ( whether all particular persons in it do so or no ) all ground of relying on the judgement of that Church , is thereby taken away . Whether it be the Church her self , or Hereticks in the Church which make these additions , is very little material , if these Hereticks , who add these new articles of Faith , may carry themselves so cunningly as to get to themselves the reputation of the Catholick Church : and so that which ought to have been Sacrarium veritatis , may become impiorum & turpium errorum Lupanar : which your Church is concerned not to have Englished ; but by the help of Rider , and other good Authours of yours , it is no hard matter to come to understand it . And thus we see how much you have abused his Lordship , in charging him with a threefold falsification of Vincentius Lerinensis . The second thing which his Lordship answers , is , That all determinations of the Church are not made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation ; because some are made by Scripture , and others , as Stapleton saith , without any evident or probable testimony of Holy writ : though therein Bellarmine falls quite off , and confesses in express terms , that nothing can be certain by certainty of Faith , unless it be contained immediately in the Word of God : or be deduced thence by evident consequence . Your only design here , is , to vindicate your two great Champions from contradicting each other , which though it be of little consequence to the main Assertion of his Lordship , which you knew well enough , and therefore carefully avoid the main Charge of your enemy , to part two of your quarrelling friends : yet since you intend this for a tryal of your skill , we must see how well you play your Prize . Stapleton , you say , means that we must submit to the determinations of the Church and the traditions she approves , though they be not expresly contained in Scripture . Excellently well guessed at Stapletons meaning ! when the very words you cite out of him are , We ought not to deny our assent in matters of Faith , though we have them only by tradition , or the decisions of the Church against Hereticks , and not confirmed with evident or probable testimony of Scripture . What a rare Interpreter are you grown since your acquaintance with Rider , and other English Lexicons ? Who make not denying assent in matters of Faith , to be the same with submitting to the Churches Determinations , when you know well enough , we plead for submission to the Churches Determinations , where there may be a liberty as to internal assent : and it is as good to make no evident or probable testimony of Scripture the same with not being expresly contained in Scripture ; as though nothing which was not expresly contained in Scripture , could have any probable testimony from thence . And from this we may guess what an easie matter it is for you to accommodate all persons who differ , if one sayes Yes , and the other No , you will tell them they do not differ , but that one of them by Yes , means No ; and the other by No , means Yes . Just so here you reconcile Stapleton and Bellarmine ; for you say , Stapleton by [ no probable testimony ] means some kind of probable testimony , viz. such as though not express , may be yet deduced from Scripture ; and Bellarmine , when he speaks of Gods written Word , as the ground of certainty , means that which is neither Gods Word , nor yet written , viz. Tradition . I never met with one who had a better faculty of reconciling than you seem to have by this attempt . But his Lordship had prevented this subterfuge as to Bellarmine and Stapleton , as if Stapleton spake of the Word of God written , and Bellarmine of the Word of God unwritten ( as he calls Tradition ) . For Bellarmine , saith he , there treats of the knowledge which a man hath of the certainty of his own Salvation . And I hope A. C. will not tell us , there 's any Tradition extant unwritten , by which particular men may have assurance of their several Salvations . Therefore Bellarmine 's whole Disputation there , is quite beside the matter : Or else , he must speak of the written Word , and so lye cross to Stapleton as is mentioned . You tell us , This Reason is very strange : but I dare say , yours exceeds it in strangeness , which is , because Bellarmines design was to shew , there was no such unwritten Tradition to be found . But doth Bellarmine dispute against any body or no body ? If he disputes against any body upon your principles , those whom he disputes against must be such , who assert that men may have certainty of Faith concerning their Salvation from Tradition ; and you would do well to tell us , Who those were that pretended that there was a Tradition or unwritten word delivered down from the Apostles , that they should be saved . And though Bellarmine was not to affirm this , yet those he disputed against , upon your Principles must be supposed to do it . But certainly you thought none of your Readers did ever intend to look into Bellarmine for the place in Controversie ; for if they did , nothing could be more plain , than that Bellarmines reason against Catharinus and others , proceeds wholly and only upon the written Word . For , 1. When he saith , that Nothing can be certain with the certainty of Faith , but what is either immediately contained in the Word of God , or may be deduced thence by evident consequence , because Faith can rest on nothing , but the authority of Gods Word ; he adds , That of this Principle , neither the Catholicks nor the Hereticks doubt . But I pray , do those whom Bellarmine there calls Hereticks , acknowledge the unwritten Word as a foundation for certainty of Faith in the Case Disputed ? therefore it is plain , he speaks exclusively of a written Word . 2. When he mentions the Assumption , he evidently explains himself of the written Word ; for , saith he , There is no such Proposition contained in the Word of God , that such and such a particular person is justified ; for there are none mentioned therein save Mary Magdalen , and a certain Paralytick of whom it is said , their sins are forgiven them . Caeteri homines in sacris literis nè nominantur quidem . And will Rider , and your other good friends the English Lexicons , help you to interpret Sacrae literae by unwritten Traditions ? Could any one that had either any common sense left in him , or else had not a design most grosly to impose on his Readers , offer to perswade men , that Bellarmine could here understand the Word of God in a sense common to Scripture and Tradition . If you can prove that Bellarmine saith otherwise elsewhere , you are so far from reconciling Bellarmine and Stapleton , that you will not easily reconcile Bellarmine to himself . The remainder of this Chapter either refers to something to be handled afterwards as the Infallibility of the Church and Councils , or else barely repeats what hath been discussed already concerning your sense of Fundamentals , and therefore I dare not presume so far on the Reader 's patience , as to give him the same things over and over . CHAP. IV. The Protestant Doctrine of Fundamentals vindicated . The unreasonableness of demanding a Catalogue of Fundamentals . The Creed contains the Fundamentals of Christian Communion . The belief of Scripture supposed by it . The Dispute concerning the Sense of Christ's Descent into Hell , and Mr. Rogers his Book confessed by T. C. impertinent : With others of the same nature . T. C ' s . fraud , in citing his Lordships words . Of Papists and Protestants Vnity . The Moderation of the Church of England , compared with that of Rome . Her grounds of Faith justified . Infant-Baptism how far proved out of Scripture alone . THis Chapter begins with a very pertinent Question , as you call it : we might the easier believe it to be so , because it is none of your own proposing ; but yet your very calling it , a pertinent Question , renders it liable to suspicion , and upon examination it will be found both unreasonable and impertinent . The Question was , What Points the Bishop would account Fundamental ; and that you may shew how necessary this Question was , you add ; For if he will have some Fundamental , which we are bound to believe under pain of damnation ; and others not Fundamental , which we may , without sin , question , or deny ; it behoves us much to know , what they are . I have ever desired , say you , a satisfactory Answer from Protestants to this Question , but could never yet have it in the sense demanded . An unhappy man you are , who , it seems , have in your time propounded more foolish Questions , than a great many wise men were never able to answer . But , is it not every jot as reasonable , That since your Church pretends to the power of making things necessary to the Salvation of all , which were not so before , we should have from you an exact Catalogue of all your Churches Definitions ? If for that , you referr us to the Confession of Faith , at the end of the Council of Trent ; so , may not we , with far greater reason , send you back to the Apostolical Creed ? there being no objection which will hold against this , being a Catalogue of our Fundamentals , but will hold against that Being a Catalogue of yours . Nay , you assert such things your self concerning the necessity of believing things defined by the Church , as make it impossible for you to assign the definite number of such things , as are necessary for all persons , and therefore it is very unreasonable to demand it of us . For still , when you speak , that the things defined by the Church , are necessary to the Salvation of all , you add , Where they are sufficiently propounded ; so that the measure of Fundamentals depends on the sufficiency of the Proposition . Now , will you undertake to assign what number of things are sufficiently propounded to the belief of all persons ? Can you set down the exact bounds , as to all individuals , when their ignorance is inexcusable , and when not ? Can you tell what the measure of their capacity was ? what allowance God makes for the prejudices of Education , where there is a mind desirous of instruction ? Will you say , God accounts all those things sufficiently proposed to mens belief , which you judge to be so ? or , that all men are bound to think those things necessary to Salvation , which you think so ? by what means shall the Churches Power of defining matters of Faith , be sufficiently proposed to men as an Article of Faith ? Either by its own Definition , or without ? If by its ; the thing is proposed to be believed , which is supposed to be believed already , before that Proposition ; or else the Enquiry returns with as great force , Why should I believe that Definition more than any other ? if without it ; then the sufficiency of Proposition , and the necessity of believing depends not on the Churches Definition . These Questions I am apt to think as pertinent and necessary as yours was : and , now you know my sense , and are so discontented you could never meet with a satisfactory Answer from Protestants , prevent the same dissatisfaction in me , by giving a punctual Answer to such necessary Questions . But , if you think the demands unreasonable , because they depend on such things , which none can know but God himself ; I pray accept of that as a satisfactory Answer to your own very pertinent Question . But if the Question be propounded not concerning what things are Fundamental and necessary to particular persons , which on the reasons formerly given , it is impossible to give a Catalogue of , but , of such things which are necessary to be owned for Christian Communion , as I have shewed this Question of Fundamentals ought only to be taken here ; then his Lordship's Answer was more pertinent than the Question , viz. That all the Points of the Creed were such : For , saith he ; Since the Fathers make the Creed the Rule of Faith ; since the agreeing sense of Scripture , with those Articles , are the two Regular Precepts , by which a Divine is governed about the Faith ; since your own Council of Trent decrees , That it is that principle of Faith , in which all that profess Christ , do necessarily agree , & Fundamentum firmum & unicum , not the firm only , but the only Foundation ; since it is Excommunication ipso jure , for any man to contradict the Articles contained in that Creed ; since the whole body of Faith is so contained in the Creed , as that the substance of it was believed even before the coming of Christ ; though not so expresly as since , in the number of the Articles : Since Bellarlarmin confesses , That all things simply necessary for all mens Salvation , are in the Creed and Decalogue , What reason can you have to except ? Thus far his Lordship : though from hence it appears , what little reason you have to except ; yet because of that , I expect your Exceptions the sooner : and therefore very fairly passing by the sense of the Fathers , you ask concerning the Council of Trent ; What if , that call the Creed the only Foundation ? Are you come to a What if , with the Council of Trent ? But , I suppose , it is not from disputing its Authority , but its meaning ; for you would seem to understand it only of prime Articles of Faith , and not of such as all are bound upon sufficient Proposition expresly to believe ; for that is all the sense I can make of your words . But , whoever was so silly , as to say , That all such things which are to be believed on sufficient Proposition that they are revealed by God , are contained in the Creed ? When you seem to imply , That this was the sense the Question was propounded in , it is a sign you little attend to the Consequence of things : when it is most evident , that the Question was started concerning the Greek Church , and therefore must referr only to such Fundamentals , as are necessary to be owned in order to the Being of a true Church . And when you can prove , that any other Articles are necessary to that , besides those contained in the Creed , you will do something to purpose , but not before . But , you suppose them to take the Creed in a very large sense , who would lap up in the folds of it all particular Points of Faith whatever : and I am sure , this is not the sense it is to be taken in here , nor that in which his Lordship took it . He saith indeed , That if he had said , that those Articles only which are expressed in the Creed , are Fundamental , it would have been hard to have excluded the Scripture , upon which the Creed it self in every Point is grounded . For nothing is supposed to shut out its own Foundation . And this is built on very good reason . For the things contained in the Creed are proposed as matters to be believed ; all Faith must suppose a Divine Testimony revealing those things to us , as the ground on which we believe them ; this Divine Testimor is never pretended to be contained in the Creed ; but that it is only a summary Collection of the most necessary Points which God hath revealed ; and therefore something else must be supposed as the ground and formal reason why we assent to the truth of those things therein contained . So that the Creed must suppose the Scripture , as the main and only Foundation of believing the matters of Faith therein contained . But say you , If all the Scripture be included in the Creed , there appears no great reason of scruple , why the same should not be said of Traditions , and other Points ; especially of that for which we admit Scripture it self . But , do you make no difference between the Scripture being supposed as the ground of Faith , and all Scripture being contained in the Creed ? And doth not his Lordship tell you , That though some Articles may be Fundamental , which are infolded in the Creed , it would not follow , that therefore some unwritten Traditions were Fundamental ; for , though they may have Authority , and use , in the Church , as Apostolical , yet are they not Fundamental in the Faith. And as for that Tradition , That the Books of Holy Scripture are Divine , and Infallible in every part ; he promises to handle it , when he comes to the proper place for it . And there we shall readily attend what you have to object to what his Lordship saith about it . But yet you say , His Lordship doth not answer the Question , as far as it was necessary to be answered ; we say , he doth . No , say you : For the Question arising concerning the Greek Churches errour , whether it were Fundamental or no ; Mr. Fisher demanded of the Bishop , What Points he would account Fundamental : to which he answers , That all Points contained in the Creed , are such , but yet not only they ; and therefore this was no direct Answer to the Question ; for , though the Greeks errour was not against the Creed , yet it may be against some other Fundamental Article not contained in the Creed . This you call fine shuffling . To which I answer , That when his Lordship speaks of its not being Fundamentum unicum in that sense , to exclude all things not contained in the Creed from being Fundamental ; he spake it with an immediate respect to the belief of Scripture , as an Infallible Rule of Faith : For , saith he , The truth is , I said , and say still , That all the Points of the Apostles Creed , as they are there expressed , are Fundamental . And herein I say no more than some of your best learned have said before me . But , I never said , or meant , that they only are Fundamental ; that they are Fundamentum unicum , is the Council of Trent's , 't is not mine . Mine is , That the belief of Scripture to be the Word of God and Infallible , is an equal , or rather a preceding Principle of Faith , with , or to , the whole body of the Creed . Now , what reason can you have to call this , shuffling , unless you will rank the Greeks errour equal with the denying the Scripture to be the Word of God ? otherwise , his Lordship's Answer is as full and pertinent , as your cavil is vain and trifling . His Lordship adds , That this agrees with one of your own great Masters , Albertus Magnus , who is not far from the Proposition , in terminis . To which your Exceptions are so pitiful , that I shall answer them , without reciting them ; for he that supposeth the sense of Scripture , joyned with the Articles of Faith , to be the Rule of Faith , as Albertus doth , must certainly suppose the belief of the Scripture as the Word of God , else how is it possible its sense should be the Rule of Faith ? Again , it is not enough for you to say , That he believed other Articles of Faith , besides these in the Creed ; but , that he made them a Rule of Faith together with the sense of Scripture . 3. All this while here is not one word of Tradition , as the ground on which these Articles of Faith were to be believed . If this therefore be your way of answering , I know none will contend with you for fine shuffling . What follows concerning the right sense of the Article of the Descent of Christ into Hell ; since you say , You will not much trouble your self about it , as being not Fundamental either in his Lordships sense , or ours ; I look on that expression as sufficient to excuse me from undertaking so needless a trouble , as the examining the several senses of it ; since you acknowledge , That no one determinate sense is Fundamental , and therefore not pertinent to our business . Much less is that which follows concerning Mr. Rogers his Book and Authority ; in which , and that which depends upon it , I shall only give you your own words for an Answer , That truly I conceive it of small importance to spend much time upon this subject ; and shall not so far contradict my judgement as to do that , which , I think , when it is done , is to very little purpose . Of the same nature is that of Catharinus ; for it signifies nothing to us , whether you account him an Heretick or no , who know , Men are not one jot more or less Heretick , for your accounting them to be so or not . You call the Bishop , your good friend , in saying , That all Protestants do agree with the Church of England in the main Exceptions , which they joyntly take against the Roman Church , as appears by their several Confessions . For ( say you ) by their agreeing in this , but in little or nothing else , they sufficiently shew themselves enemies to the true Church , which is one , and only one , by Vnity of Doctrine ; from whence they must needs be judged to depart , by reason of their Divisions . As good a friend as you say his Lordship was to you , in that saying of his , I am sure you ill requite him for his Kindness , by so palpable a falsification of his words , and abuse of his meaning . And all that Friendship you pretend , lyes only in your leaving out that part of the Sentence , which takes away all that you build on the rest . For where doth his Lordship say , That the Protestants only agree in their main Exceptions against the Roman Church , and not in their Doctrines ? Nay , doth he not expresly say , That they agree in the chiefest Doctrines , as well as main Exceptions , which they take against the Church of Rome , as appears by their several Confessions . But you , very conveniently to your purpose , and with a fraud suitable to your Cause , leave out the first part of agreement in the chiefest Doctrines , and mention only the latter , lest your Declamation should be spoiled as to your Unity , and our Disagreements . But we see by this , by what means you would perswade men of both , by Arts and Devices , fit only to deceive such , who look only on the appearance and outside of things ; and yet even there , he that sees not your growing Divisions , is a great stranger to the Christian world . Your great Argument of the Vnity of your party , because , whatever the private Opinions of men are , they are ready to submit their judgements to the censure and determination of the Church ; if it be good , will hold as well ( or better ) for our Unity , as yours , because all men are willing to submit their judgements to Scripture , which is agreed on all sides to be Infallible . If you say , That it cannot be known what Scripture determines , but it may be easily what the Church defines : It is easily answered , that the event shews it to be far otherwise ; for how many Disputes are there , concerning the Power of determining matters of Faith ? to whom it belongs , in what way it must be managed , whether parties ought to be heard in matters of Doctrine , what the meaning of the Decrees are , when they are made , which raise as many Divisions as were before them , as appears by the Decrees of the Council of Trent , and the latter of Pope Innocent relating to the five Propositions : So that upon the whole it appears , setting aside force and fraud ( which are excellent principles of Christian Vnity ) we are upon as fair terms of Vnion as you are among your selves . You tell us , That your Church doth Anathematize only such persons as are obstinate ; but who are they whom she accounts obstinate ? even all who dissent from her in any punctilio . And therefore this is a singular piece of Moderation in your Church . And , you believe the troubles of Christendom rather come from too great freedom taken in matters of Faith , than from any severity in the Church of Rome . The truth is , you have excellent waies of ending Controversies , much like perswading men to put out their Eyes , to end the Disputes about the nature of Colours ; and if they will not hearken to such prudent counsel , they are pronounced obstinate and perverse , for offering to keep their Eyes in their Heads . And if men will not say , that White is Black , when your Church bids them do it , these men are the troublers of Israel , and the fomenters of the Discords of the Christian world . But if your Church had kept to the primitive simplicity and moderation , and not offered to define matters of Faith ; the occasion of most of the Controversies of the Christian world , had been taken away . Believe what you will , and speak what you list ; there are none who consider what they believe or speak , but easily discover whence the great Dissentions of the Christian world have risen , viz. from the Ambition and Vsurpation of the Church of Rome , which hath not been contented to have introduced many silly Superstitions into the publick exercise of Devotion ; but , when any of these came to be discovered , thought it her best course to defend her corruptions with greater ; by inforcing men to the belief of them , and thereby rendring a Separation from her Communion unavoidable by all those who sought to retrieve the Piety and Devotion of the Primitive Church . And yet this must be call'd Schism , and the persons attempting it Hereticks , by that same Pious and tender-hearted Mother of yours , who loves her Children so dearly , that if they do but desire any reformation of abuses , she takes all possible care they shall complain no more . As though the only way to prevent quarrelling in the world , were to cut out peoples Tongues , and cut off their Arms ; Such a kind of Vnity hath your Church shewed her self very desirous of , where ever power and conveniency have met for the carrying it on . But , I hope , you will give us leave , not to envy the Vnity of those , who therefore agree in the Church , because , as soon as they do in the least differ from it , they are pronounced not to be of it , for opposing the determinations of it . And yet , notwithstanding , the violence and fraud used in your Church to preserve its Vnity , the world is alarm'd with the noise of its Dissentions , and the increase of the differing parties , who manage their Contests with great heats and animosities against each other , under all the great pretences of your Vnity . I cannot but therefore judge it a very prudent expression of his Lordship , That as the Church of England is not such a Shrew to her Children , as to deny her blessing , or denounce an Anathema against them , if some peaceably dissent in some particulars remoter from the Foundation : So , if the Church of Rome , since she grew to her greatness , had not been so fierce in this course , and too particular in determining too many things , and making them matters of necessary belief , which had gone for many hundred of years before , only for things of pious Opinion ; Christendom ( I perswade my self ) had been in happier Peace at this day , then , I doubt , we shall ever live to see it . And it is an excellent reason you give , why the Church of Rome doth impose her Doctrine on the whole world , under pain of damnation ; because it is not in her power to do otherwise . There is little hopes then of amendment in her , if she thinks so . But , you tell us , Christ hath commanded her to do it . What hath he commanded her to do ? to add to his Doctrine by making things necessary , which he never made to be so ? Is it in that place , where he bids the Apostles , to teach all that he commanded them , that he gives power to the Church , to teach more than he commanded : But this is a new kind of Supererogation , to make more Articles of Faith , than ever men required to make . Where still is this Command extant in Scripture ? Not sure any where , but in that most apposite place produced to that , and all other good purposes which have nothing else to prove them ; even Dic Ecclesiae , If he will not hear the Church , let him be to thee as a Heathen and a Publican ; therefore the Church of Rome is commanded by Christ , to impose her Doctrine on the whole Church , upon pain of damnation . Sure you will pronounce men obstinate , that dare in the least question this , after so irrefragable a demonstration of it . And you may well cry , Scripture is not fit to decide Controversies , when you consider the lame Consequences you , above all men , derive from it . His Lordship shews the Moderation of the Church of England , even in that Canon which A. C. looks on as the most severe , where she pronounces Excommunication on such as affirm , that the Articles are in any part superstitious or erronious , &c. by these things . 1. That it is not meant of mens private judgements , but of what they boldly and publickly affirm . 2. That it is one thing to hold contrary to some part of an Article ; and anotherp , ositively to affirm , That the Articles in any part are superstitious or erronious . 3. The Church of England doth this only for thirty nine Articles ; but the Church of Rome doth it , for above a hundred in matter of Doctrine . 4. The Church of England never declared , That every one of her Articles are Fundamental in the Faith ; but the Church of Rome requires , that all be believed as Fundamental , when once the Church hath determined them . 5. The Church of England prescribes only to her own Children , and by those Articles provides but for her own peaceable consent in those Doctrines of Truth . But the Church of Rome severely imposes her Doctrine upon the whole world , under pain of damnation . To all these very considerable Instances of our Churches Moderation , your Answer is , The Question is not , Whether the English Congregation , or the Roman Church be more severe ; but , Whether the English Protestants Severity be not unreasonable ; supposing she be subject to errour , in defining those Articles . For after many words , to the same , i. e. little purpose , the reason you give for it , is , That every just Excommunication inflicted for opposing of Doctrine , must necessarily suppose the Doctrine opposed to be infallibly true , and absolutely exempt from errour ; otherwise the Sentence it self would be unreasonable and unjust , as wanting sufficient ground . From whence you charge Protestants with greater Tyranny and Injustice towards their people , than they can with any colour or pretence of reason , charge upon the Roman Church , which excommunicates no man , but for denying such Doctrine as is both infallibly True , and also Fundamental , at least as to its formal Object . This is the strength of all you say , which will be reduced to this short Question , Whether the proceedings of that Church be more unreasonable , which excommunicates such as openly oppose her Doctrine , supposing her Fallible ; or of that Church , which excommunicates all who will not believe whatever she defines to be Infallibly true . This is the true State of the Controversie , which must be judged by the resolving another Question , Whether it be not a more unreasonable Vsurpation , to bind men upon pain of damnation hereafter , and excommunication here , to believe every thing Infallible which a Church defines , or to bind men to peace to a Churches Determinations , reserving to men the liberty of their judgements , on pain of Excommunication , if they violate that peace . For it is plain on the one side , where a Church pretends Infallibility , the Excommunication is directed against the persons for refusing to give Internal Assent to what she defines : But , where a Church doth not pretend to that , the Excommunication respects wholly that Overt Act , whereby the Churches Peace is broken . And if a Church be bound to look to her own Peace , no doubt she hath power to excommunicate such as openly violate the bonds of it ; which is only an Act of Caution in a Church , to preserve her self in Vnity ; but where it is given out , that the Church is Infallible , the Excommunication must be so much the more unreasonable , because it is against those Internal Acts of the mind , over which the Church , as such , hath no direct power . And thus , I hope , you see how much more just and reasonable the proceedings of our Church are then of yours ; and that , eo nomine , because she pretends to be infallible , and ours doth not . His Lordship shews further in Vindication of the Church of England , and her grounds of Faith , that the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture ; and her Negative do refute there , where the thing affirmed by them , is not affirmed by Scripture , nor directly to be concluded out of it . And this ( he saith ) is the main principle of all Protestants , that Scripture is sufficient to Salvation , and contains in it all things necessary to it . The Fathers are plain , the Schoolmen not strangers in it . And Stapleton himself confesses as much . Nay , and you dare not deny it , as to all material Objects of Faith , and your formal here signifies nothing . And when A. C. saith , That the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture , if themselves may be Judges in their own cause . His Lordship answers , We are contented to be judged by the joynt and constant belief of the Fathers , which lived within the first four or five hundred years after Christ , when the Church was at the best , and by the Councils held within those times , and to submit to them in all those Points of Doctrine . This Offer you grant to be very fair , and you do , for your selves , promise the same , and say , You will make it good upon all occasions . Which we shall have tryal of before the end of this Book . To what his Lordship saith , concerning the Negative Articles , That they refute where the thing affirmed by them is either not affirmed in Scripture , or not directly to be concluded out of it . A. C. replies , That the Baptism of Infants is not expresly ( at least not evidently ) affirmed in Scripture , nor directly ( at least not demonstratively ) concluded out of it . Here two things his Lordship answers . 1. To the Expression . 2. To the thing . 1. To the Expression ; That he is no way satisfied with A. C. his addition ( not expresly , at least not evidently : ) for ( saith he ) What means he ? If he speak of the l●tter of Scripture , then whatsoever is expresly , is evidently in the Scripture , and so his addition is in vain . If he speak of the meaning of Scripture , then his addition is cunning . For many things are expresly in Scripture , which yet in their meaning are not evidently there . And , as little satisfied his Lordship declares himself , with that other ( nor directly , at least not demonstratively , ) because many things are directly concluded , which are not demonstratively . To the first you answer , That a Point may be exprest , yet not evidently exprest ; otherwise there could be no doubt concerning what were exprest in Scripture , since men never question things that are evident . Now , say you , the Baptism of Infants must not only ●e exprest , but evidently exprest , to prove it sufficiently , i. e. undeniably , by Scripture alone . But the Question being concerning matters of Doctrine , and not meer words , those things are expresly affirmed , which are evidently , and no other : For it is one thing for words to be expresly in Scripture , and another for Doctrines to be so . For these latter are no further expresly affirmed there , than as there is evidence , that the meaning of such words doth contain such a Doctiine in them . As to take your own Instance , This is my Body , we grant the words to be express ; but we deny , that which he had then in his hands was his real Body ; ( for his hands were part of his real Body ) Now , we do not say , That the Doctrine of Transubstantiation is expresly , but not evidently contained here ; for , we say , The Doctrine is not there at all , but only that those are the express words ; This is my Body ; as it is in other figurative expressions in Scripture . But that which causeth this litigation about words , is , That you look upon that which is evident and undeniable to be all one , whereas there may be sufficient evidence , where all men are not perswaded by it . And so you would put his Lordship to prove out of Scripture , Infant-Baptism evidently and demonstratively , i. e. undeniably ; whereas his Lordship supposeth it enough for his purpose , to prove it by such sufficient evidence , as may convince any reasonable man. And this was all his Lordship meant , when he said , That our Negative Articles do refute , where the thing is not affirmed in Scripture , or not directly concluded out of it . And , if you will stand to the strict sense of these words , you will be forced to prove all those Doctrines of your Church , which ours denies to be true , so evidently and demonstratively , i. e. undeniably , as you would put him upon for the proof of Infant-Baptism . To leave therefore this verbal dispute , and come to the thing : His Lordship saith , That it may be concluded directly out of Scripture , That Infants ought to be baptized , &c. For which , he insists on two places of Scriture , Joh. 3.8 . Except a man be born again of Water , and of the Spirit , &c. which being interpreted according to the sense of the Fathers , and the Ancient Church , and as your own party acknowledge it ought to be interpreted , do evidently assert Infant-Baptism . By which , your exception of a Pelagian Anabaptist , who denies Original sin , and from thence saith , That Infants cannot be born again , is taken away ; for the same Tradition of the Ancient Church , which from hence inferrs the Baptism of Infants , doth it upon that ground , because they are guilty of Original sin , as you might have seen by his Lordship's Citations to that purpose . The other place he insists on , is , Act. 2.38 , 39. which , by the acknowledgement of Ferus and Salmeron , holds for Infant-Baptism . But , when you say , That you would not weaken the Argument , from Joh. 3. for Infant-Baptism ; because you only would shew , that it cannot be proved demonstratively from Scripture alone , against a perverse Heretick : You seem not much to consider what those perverse Hereticks ( as you call them ) hold as to Infant-Baptism , which is , not meerly that Infant-Baptism is not commanded in Scripture , but that it is a thing unlawful , as being a perverting of the Institution of Christ , as to the subject of Baptism . For the main Question between us and the Antipaedobaptists , is not , concerning an absolute and express command for Baptizing Infants ; but whether our Blessed Saviour hath not by a positive Precept so determined the subject of Baptism ; viz. adult persons professing the Faith , that the alteration of the subject , viz. in Baptizing Infants , be not a deviation from , and perversion of the Institution of Christ in a substantial part of it ; or in short thus , whether our Saviour hath so determined the subject of Baptism , as to exclude Infants . And although , the question being thus stated , the proof ought to lye on those who affirm it , yet taking in only the help of Scripture and reason , it were no difficult matter to prove directly and evidently , that Infants are so far from being excluded Baptism by the Institution of Christ , that there are as many grounds as are necessary to a matter of that nature , to prove that the Baptizing them is suitable to the Institution of Christ , and agreeable to the state of the Church under the Gospel . For , if there were any ground to exclude them , it must be either the incapacity of the subject , or some express precept and Institution of our Saviour . But neither of these can be supposed to do it . 1. Not incapacity as to the ends of Baptism : for clearing which , these two things must be premised : 1. That the rule and measure , as to the use and capacity of Divine Institutions , is to be fetched from the end of them . For , this was the ground of the Circumcision of the Proselytes under the Law : and this was the way the Apostles did interpret Christs Commission for Baptizing all Nations , as to the capacity of the subjects of it , Acts 10.47 . Can any man forbid water , that these should not be Baptized , which have received the Holy Ghost , as well as we : where the question was concerning the subject of Baptism . For it might be made evident , that the Apostles at first did interpret their Commission of Baptizing all Nations , only of the Jews of all Nations : for after that , St. Peter looked on the Gentiles as unclean : and the Disciples at Jerusalem charged St. Peter with it , as a great fault , for going in to men uncircumcised , Acts 11.3 . Therefore we see when the question was concerning the subject of Baptism ; the only Argument is drawn from the design and ends of it ; that they who were capable of the thing signified ought not to be denyed the use of the sign . And thus by a parity of reason built on equal grounds , those who are capable of the great things represented in Baptism and confirmed by it , viz. Gods pardoning grace , and acceptation to eternal life , ought not to be denyed the external sign , which is Baptism it self . And therefore , 2. Where there is a capacity as to the main ends of an Institution , an incapacity as to some ends doth not exclude from it . As is most evident in the Baptism of our Blessed Saviour , in whom was a greater incapacity as to the main ends of Baptism , then possibly can be in Infants ; for his Baptism could not at all be for the remission of sins . Now we see , although there were but one end , and that a very general one mentioned , That he might fulfill all righteousness , Matth. 3.15 . yet we see , that was sufficient to perswade John to Baptize him . Whereby we see evidently in this practise of our Saviour built on a general and common ground , that a capacity as to one end of a positive Institution , is sufficient to make such a practice lawful , and in some cases a duty . These two general Principles being laid down ; it were easie to shew , 1. That what incapacity there is in Infants , is not destructive of the main ends of Baptism ; which is chiefly thought to be the incapacity of understanding the nature or ends of the Institution ; and if that exclude , it must either be , that it is a thing repugnant to reason , that any Divine Institution should be applyed to persons uncapable of understanding the nature and ends of it , which would highly reflect on the wisdome of God in appointing Circumcision for Children eight dayes old , who were certainly as uncapable of understanding the ends of that , as our Children are of Baptism ; or else , that there is some peculiarity in the Institution of Baptism , which must exclude them from it under the Gospel : which that there is not , will appear presently . 2. That there is a capacity in Infants as to the main ends of Baptism , which have either an aspect from God to us , in regard of its Institution , or from us to God , in regard of our undertaking it . Now the chief ends of a Divine Institution as such , are such as respect Gods Intention in it towards us , in which respect it is properly a sign ; but as it respects God from us , it is properly a Ceremony betokening our profession and restipulation towards God. Now the ends of it as a sign , are to represent and exhibit to us the nature of the grace of the Gospel as it cleanseth and purifieth , and to confirm the truth of the Covenant on Gods part , and to enstate the partakers of it in the priviledges of the Church of God ; now as to all these ends , there is no incapacity in Infants to exclude them from Baptism , because of them . So that nothing can seem wanting of the ends of Baptism , but that which seems most Ceremonial in it , which is the personal restipulation , which yet may reasonably be supplyed by Sponsors , so far as to make it of the nature of a solemn Contract and Covenant in sight of the Congregation . Thus far it appears from Scripture and Reason , that no incapacity in Infants doth exclude them from Baptism . 2. That there is no direct or consequential prohibition made by our Blessed Saviour to exclude them . For granting that he had the power to limit and determine the subject of Baptism , the question is , Whether he hath so far done it as to exclude Infants ? And nothing of that nature is pretended , before the last Commission given to the Apostles , of Teaching and Baptizing all Nations , Matth. 28.19 . And that by this expression there is no exclusion of Infants will appear ; 1. If our Saviour had intended the gathering of Churches among the Gentiles according to the Law of Moses , he could hardly have expressed it after another manner then thus , Go Proselyte all Nations , Circumcising them . Now I appeal to any mans judgement and reason , whether in such words it could be imagined , that the Infants of such Gentile-Proselytes should be excluded Circumcision ; and what reason can there be then from these words to imagine , that our Saviour did intend to exclude the Infants of Gentile-Converts from Baptism ? 2. We must consider , what apprehensions those whom our Saviour directed these words to , viz. the Apostles , had concerning the Church-state of such as were in an external Covenant with God , which they measured by the general reason of that Covenant which God made with the Jews ; Can we then think , that when our Saviour bid the Apostles gather whole Nations into Churches , they should imagine the Infants were excluded out of it , when they were so solemnly admitted into it , in that dispensation which was in use among them ? 3. The Gentiles being now to be first Proselyted to Christianity , the order of the words was necessary : for whoever imagined , but that such as were wholly strangers to Christianity , as those were whom Christ there speaks of , were to be first taught , or discipled , before they were to be Baptized ? For suppose , it should be said to such persons among whom Infant Baptism is the most used , Go and Disciple the Indians , Baptizing them , &c. Could any one conceive the intention of such a Commission was to exclude the Infants of all those Indians from Baptism , when it was well known that Infant-Baptism was used among those who came with that Commission ? And therefore neither these words here , nor those Mark. 16.16 . He that believeth and is Baptized , &c. can in reason be so interpreted as to exclude Infants , when the meer order of nature , and necessity of the thing , requires that those who first own Christianity by being Baptized , ought , before such Baptism , not only to believe , but to make profession of that Faith ; but this reacheth not at all to the case of such Infants as are born of those persons . For if any one had said to Abraham , He that believes , and is circumcised , shall be saved , Could it have been so interpreted , that the intention was to exclude his Children from Circumcision ? No more ought these words of our Saviour be strained to a greater prejudice of the right of Infants to Baptism , then those other to their right of Circumcision . And thus far we see there is no ground from Scriptures , or Reason , why Infants should be excluded . And , were it not too large a Digression , I might further shew how suitable the Baptism of Infants is to the administration of things under the Gospel ; but I shall only propound some considerations concerning it . 1. That if it had been Christs intention to exclude Infants , ●here had been far greater reason for an express prohibition ; then of an express command , if his intention were to admit them : because this was suitable to the general grounds of Gods dispensation among them before . 2. It is very hard to conceive that the Apostles thought Infants excluded by Christ , when after Christs Ascension they looked on themselves as bound to observe the Jewish customes , even when they had Baptized many thousand people . 3. If admission of Infants to Baptism were a meer Relick of Judaism , it seems strange that none of the Judaizing Christians should be charged with it , who yet are charged with the observation of other Judaical rites . 4. Since the Jewish Christians were so much offended at the neglect of Circumcision , Acts 21.21 . Can we in reason think they should quietly bear their Childrens being wholly thrown out of the Church ; as they would have been , if neither admitted to Circumcision nor Baptism ? 5. Had it been contrary to Christs Institution , we should not have had such evidence of its early practice in the Church as we have . And here I acknowledge the use of Apostolical Tradition to manifest this to us ; In which sense I acknowledge what St. Austin saith , That the custom of our mother the Church is not to be contemned or thought superfluous , neither is it to be believed but as an Apostolical Tradition . For that the words are to be read so , ( and not , as you translate them , nor at all to be believed unless it had been an Apostolical Tradition , from thence inferring , that Infant-Baptism were not to be believed at all , but for Tradition ) appears by three ancient Manuscripts at Oxford , as well as the course of the sentence , and St. Austins judgement in other places , viz. that it ought to be read , Nec omninò credenda nisi Apostolica traditio esse , and not esset . But we grant that the practice of the Church from Apostolical times is a great confirmation , that it was never Christs intention to have Infants excluded from Baptism . And thus much may suffice to shew , what evidence we have from Scripture and Reason , without recourse wholly to Tradition , or building upon any more controverted places , to justifie the Churches practice in Infant-Baptism , which is as much as is necessary for us to do . What follows concerning the founding Divine Faith on Apostolical Tradition , will be fully considered in the succeeding Controversie concerning the resolution of Faith , to which we now hasten . CHAP. V. The Romanists way of Resolving Faith. The ill consequences of the resolution of Faith by the Churches Infallibility . The grand Absurdities of it , manifested by its great unreasonableness in many particulars . The certain Foundations of Faith unsettled by it , as is largely proved . The Circle unavoidable by their new attempts . The impossibility of proving the Church Infallible by the way that Moses , Christ , and his Apostles were proved to be so . Of the Motives of Credibility , and how far they belong to the Church . The difference between Science and Faith considered , and the new art of mens believing with their wills . The Churches testimony must be , according to their principles , the formal object of Faith. Of their esteem of Fathers , Scripture , and Councils . The rare distinctions concerning the Churches infallibility discussed . How the Church can be Infallible by the assistance of the Holy Ghost , yet not divinely Infallible , but in a manner and after a sort . T. C. applauded for his excellent faculty in contradicting himself . HE that hath a mind to betray an excellent Cause , may more advantagiously do it , by bringing weak and insufficient Evidences for it , then by the greatest heat and vigour of Opposition against it . For there cannot possibly be any greater prejudice done to a weighty and important truth , then to perswade men to believe it on such grounds , which are , if not absolutely false , yet much more disputable then the thing it self . For hereby the minds of men are taken off from the native evidence , which the truth enquired after offers to them , and build their assent upon the certainty of the medium's suggested as the only grounds to establish a firm assent upon . By which means , when upon severe enquiry , the falsity and insufficiency of those grounds is discovered , the person so discovering lyes under a dangerous temptation of calling into question the truth of that , which he finds he assented to upon grounds apparently weak and insufficient . And the more refined and subtle the speculations are , the more sublime and mysterious the matters believed ; the greater still the danger of Scepticism is , upon a discovery of the unsoundness of those principles which such things were believed upon . Especially , if the more confident and Magisterial party of those who profess the belief of such things , do with the greatest heat decry all other wayes as uncertain , and obtrude these principles upon the world , as the only sure foundation for the belief of them . It was anciently a great question among the Philosophers , whether there were any certainty in the principles of knowledge ; or , supposing certainty in things , whether there were any undoubted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or rules to obtain this certainty of knowledge by : If then any one Sect of Philosophers should have undertaken to prove the certainty that was in knowledge upon this account , because whatever their Sect or Party delivered was infallibly true ; they had not only shamefully beg'd the thing in dispute , but made it much more lyable to question then before . Because every errour discovered in that Sect , would not only prove the fondness and arrogance of their pretence of being Infallible ; but would , to all such as believed the certainty of things on the authority of their Sect , be an argument to disprove all certainty of knowledge , when they once discovered the errours of those whose authority they relyed upon . Just such is the case of the Church of Rome in this present Controversie concerning the Resolution of Faith. The question is , What the certain grounds of our assent are to the principles and rule of Christian Religion ? the Romanists pretend , that there can be no ground of True and Divine Faith at all , but the Infallible testimony of Their Church ; let then any rational man judge , whether this be not the most compendious way to overthrow the belief of Christianity in the world ? For our assent must be wholly suspended upon that supposed Infallibility , which when once it falls ( as it unavoidably , doth upon the discovery of the least errour in the doctrine of that Church ) what becomes then of the belief of Christianity which was built upon that , as it s only sure foundation ? So that it is hardly imaginable , there could be any design more really destructive to Christianity , or that hath a greater tendency to Atheism then the modern pretence of Infallibility , and the Jesuits way of resolving Faith. Which was the reason why his Lordship was so unwilling to engage in that Controversie , How we know the Scriptures to be the Word of God : not out of any distrust he had of solving it upon Protestant Principles , as you vainly suggest ; nor out of any fears of being left himself in that Labyrinth , which after all your endeavours you have lost your self and your cause in ; as appears by your attempting this way , and that way to get out , and at last standing in the very middle of that circle you thought your self out of . If his Lordship thought this more a question of curiosity then necessity , it was because out of his great Charity he supposed them to be Christians he had to deal with . But if his charity were therein deceived , you shall see how able we are to make good the grounds of our Religion against all Adversaries , whether Papists or others . And so far is the answering of this question from making the weakness of our cause appear , that I doubt not but to make it evident that our cause stands upon the same grounds which our common Christianity doth ; and that we are Protestants by the same reason that we are Christians . And on the other side , that you are so far from giving any true grounds of Christian Faith , that nothing will more advance the highest Scepticism and Irreligion , then such Principles as you insist on for resolving Faith. The true reason then , why the Archbishop declared any unwillingness to enter upon this dispute , was not the least apprehension how insuperably hard the resolution of this question was , ( as you pretend ) but because of the great mischief your Party had done in starting such questions you could not resolve with any satisfaction to the common reason of mankind ; and that you run your selves into such a Circle in which you conjure up more Spirits then ever you are able to lay , by giving those advantages to Infidelity , which all your Sophistry can never answer on those principles you go upon . That this was the true ground of his Lordship's seeming averseness from this Controversie , appears by his plain words , where he tells you at first , of the danger of mens being disputed into infidelity by the Circle between Scripture and Tradition , and by his expressing his sense of the great harm you have done by the starting of that question among Christians , How we know the Scriptures to be the Word of God. But although in this respect he might be said to be drawn into it , yet lest you should think his averseness argued any consciousness of his own inability to answer it , you may see how closely he follows it ; with what care and accuracy he handles it , with what strength of reason and evidence he hath discovered the weakness of your way , which he hath done with that success , that he hath put you to miserable shifts to avoid the force of his arguments , as will appear afterwards . I am therefore fully of his mind , that it is a matter of such consequence it deserves to be sifted , were it for no other end , but to lay open the juglings and impostures of your way of resolving Faith. Which we now come more closely to the discovery of ; for , as you tell us , The Bishop propounding diverse wayes of resolving the Question , first falls to the attaquing your way , who prove it by Tradition and authority of the Church . And his first onset is so successful that it makes you visibly recoyle , and withdraw your self into so untenable a Shelter as exposeth you to all the attempts which any adversary would desire to make upon you . For , whereas you are charged by his Lordship with running into the most absurd kind of argumentation , viz. by proving the Scriptures infallible by Tradition , and that Tradition infallible by Scripture ; you think to escape that Circle by telling us , That you prove not the Churches Infallibility by the Scripture , but by the motives of credibility belonging to the Church . This then being your main principle which your following discourse is built upon , and in your judgement the only probable way to avoid the Circle , that you may not think I am afraid of encountering you in your greatest strength , I dare put the issue of the cause upon this Promise , that ( besides the weak proofs you bring for the thing it self , which shall after be considered ) if this way of yours be not chargeable with all the absurdities such an attempt is capable of , I will be content to acknowledge what you say to be true , which is , That your way of resolving Faith hath no difficulty at all , and that ours is insuperably hard , which I think are as hard terms as can be imposed upon me . Now there are two grand Absurdities , which any vindication of an Opinion are subject to ; first , If it be manifestly unreasonable , and , 2. If supposing it true , it doth not effect what it was intended for : now these two I undertake to make good against this way of your resolving Faith , that it is guilty of the highest unreasonableness ; and that , supposing it true , you are in a circle as much as before . 1. First , I begin with the unreasonableness of it , which is so great , that I know not , whether I may abstain from calling it ridiculous ; but , that I may not seem to follow you , in asserting confidently , and proving weakly , it will be necessary throughly to examine the grounds on which your opinion stands , and then raise our batteries against it . Three grand principles your discourse relyes upon , which are your postulata in order to the resolving Faith. 1. That it is necessary to the believing the Scriptures to be the Word of God with a Divine Faith , that it be built on the infallible testimony of the Church . 2. That your Church is that Catholick Church whose testimony is Infallible . 3. That this Infallibility is to be known and assented to upon the motives of credibility . These three , I suppose , if your confused discourse were reduced to method , would be freely acknowledged by your self to be the Principles on which your resolution of Faith depends . And although I am sufficiently assured of the falseness of your two first Principles ( as will appear in the sequel of this discourse ) yet that which I have now particularly undertaken , is , the unreasonableness of resolving Faith upon these Principles taken together , viz. That the Infallible Testimony of your Church , is the only Foundation for Divine Faith ; and that this Infallibility can be known only by the Motives of Credibility . If then in this way of resolving Faith , you require Assent beyond all proportion of evidence , if you run into the same Absurdities you would seem to avoid , if you leave men more uncertain in their Religion than you found them ; you cannot certainly excuse this way from unreasonableness , and each of these I undertake to make good against this way of yours , whereby you would assure men of the Truth and Divinity of the Scriptures . 1. An Assent is hereby required beyond all proportion or degree of evidence ; for you require an Infallible Assent , only upon Probable grounds ; which is as much as requiring Infallibility in the conclusion , where the premises are only probable . Now that you require an Assent Infallible to the nature of Faith , appears by the whole series of your Discourse : for , to this very end you require Infallibility in the Testimony of your Church , because otherwise , you say Our Faith would be uncertain ; it is plain then , you require an Infallible Assent in Faith ; and , it is as plain , that this Assent , according to you , can be built only upon probable grounds , for you acknowledge the motives of Credibility , to be no more than such ; yet those are all the grounds you give , why the Church should be believed Infallible . If you say , That which makes the Assent Infallible , is , that Infallibility which is in the Churches Testimony ; I reply , That this is a most unreasonable thing , to go about to establish an Infallible Assent , meerly because the Testimony is supposed to be in it self Infallible : For , Assent is not according to the Objective Certitude of things , but the evidence of them to our Vnderstandings . For , is it possible to assent to the truth of a Demonstration in a demonstrative manner , because any Mathematician tells one , The thing is demonstrable ? for in that case the Assent is not according to the Evidence of the thing , but according to the opinion such a person hath of him , who tells him , It is demonstrable . Nay , supposing that person infallible in saying so , yet if the other hath no means to be infallibly assured , that he is so ; such a ones Assent is as doubtful , as if he were not infallible : Therefore , supposing the Testimony of your Church to be really infallible , yet since the Means of believing it are but probable and prudential , the Assent cannot be according to the nature of the Testimony , considered in it self , but according to the reasons which induce me to believe such a Testimony infallible . And , in all such cases , where I believe one thing for the sake of another , my Assent to the Object believed , is according to my Assent to the Medium on which I believe it ; for by the means of that , the other is conveyed to our minds . As our sight is not according to the light in the body of the Sun , but that which presseth upon our Organs of sense : So that , supposing your Churches Testimony to be in it self infallible , if one may be deceived in judging whether your Church be infallible or no , one may be deceived in such things which he believes upon that supposed Infallibility . It being an impossibility , that the Assent to the matters of Faith , should rise higher , or stand firmer , than the Assent to the Testimony is , upon which those things are believed . Now , that one may be deceived according to your own principles , in judging whether the Church be Infallible , appears by this , That you have no other means to prove the Infallibility of your Church , but only probable and prudential Motives . For , I desire to know , whether an Infallible Assent to the Infallibility of your Church , can be grounded on those Motives of Credibility ? If you affirm it , then there can be no imaginable necessity , to make the Testimony of your Church infallible , in order to Divine Faith ; for you will not , I hope , deny , but that there are at least equal Motives of Credibility , to prove the Divine Authority of the Scriptures , as the Infallibility of your Church ; and if so , why may not an Infallible Assent be given to the Scriptures upon those Motives of Credibility , as well as to your Churches Infallibility ? If you deny the Assent built upon the Motives of Credibility to be Infallible ; how can you make the Assent to your Churches Testimony to be infallible , when that Infallibility is attempted to be proved only by the Motives of Credibility ? And therefore it necessarily follows , That notwithstanding your bearing it so high under the pretence of Infallibility , you leave mens minds much more wavering in their Assent than before ; in that , as shall afterwards appear , these very Motives of Credibility do not at all prove the Infallibility of your Church , which undoubtedly prove the Truth and Certainty of Christian Religion . Thus , while by this device , you seek to avoid the Circle , you destroy the Foundation of your Discourse , That there must be an Infallible Assent to the truth of that Proposition , That the Scriptures are the Word of God ( which you call Divine Faith ) which , how can it be infallible , when that Infallibility , at the highest , by your own confession , is but evidently credible , and so , I suppose the Authority of the Scriptures is , without your Churches Infallibility . And thus you run into the same Absurdities which you would seem to avoid , which is the second thing , to manifest the unreasonableness of this way ; for whatever Absurdity you charge us with , for believing the Doctrine of Christ upon the Motives of Credibility , unavoidably falls upon your selves for believing the Churches Infallibility on the same grounds : for if we leave the Foundation of Faith uncertain , you do so too ; if we build a Divine Faith upon Motives of Credibility , so do you ; if we make every ones reason the Judge in the choice of his Religion , so must you be forced to do , if you understand the consequence of your own principles . 1. It is impossible for you to give a better account of Faith by the Infallibility of your Church , than we can do without it ; for , if Divine Faith cannot be built upon the Motives proving the Doctrine of Christ , what sense or reason is there , that it should be built on those Motives which prove your Churches Infallibility ? so that , if we leave the Foundation of Faith uncertain , you much more ; and that I prove by a Rule of much Authority with you , by which you use to pervert the weak judgements of such , who in your case do not discern the Sophistry of it : Which is ; when you come to deal with persons , whom you hope to Proselyte , you urge them with this great Principle , That Prudence is to be our Guide in the choice of our Religion , and that Prudence directs us to chuse the safest way , and that it is much safer to make choice of that way , which both sides agree Salvation is to be obtained in , than of that which the other side utterly denies men can be saved in . How far this Rule will hold in the choice of Religion , will be examined afterwads : but if we take your word , that it is a sure Rule ; I know nothing will be more certainly advantagious to us , in on present case . For both sides , I hope , are agreed , that there are sufficient Motives of Credibility , as to the belief of the Scriptures ; but we utterly deny that there are any such Motives as to the Infallibility of your Church ; it then certainly follows , That our way is the more eligible and certain , and that we lay a surer Foundation for Faith , than you do upon your principles for resolving Faith. 2. Either you must deny any such thing as that you call Divine Faith ; or you must assert , that it may have no other Foundation than the Motives of Credibility , which yet is that , you would seem most to avoid by introducing the Infallibility of your Church , that the Foundation of Faith may not be uncertain : whereas , supposing what you desire , you must of necessity do that you would seem most fearful of , which is making a Divine Faith to rest upon prudential Motives . Which I thus prove : It is an undoubted Axiom among the great men of your side , That whatever is a Foundation for a Divine Faith , must itself be believed with a firm , certain , and infallible Assent : Now , according to your principles , the Infallibility of the Church , is the Foundation for Divine Faith ; and therefore that must be believed with an Assent Infallible . It is apparent then , an Assent Infallible is required , which is that which in other terms you call Divine Faith ; now when you make it your business to prove the Churches Infallibility upon your prudential Motives , I suppose your design is by those proofs , to induce men to believe it ; and if men then do believe it upon those Motives , do you not found an Assent Infallible , or a Divine Faith , upon the Motives of Credibility ? And by the same reason that you urge against us the necessity of believing the Scriptures to be the Word of God by Divine Faith , because it is the ground why we believe the things contained in the Scripture , we press on your side the necessity of believing the Infallibility of the Church by a Faith equally Divine , because that is to you the only sufficient Foundation of believing the Scriptures , or any thing contained in them . 3. You make by this way of resolving Faith , every man's Reason the only Judge in the choice of his Religion : which you are pleased to charge on us as a great Absurdity : yet , you who have deserved so very ill of Reason , are fain to call in her best assistance in a case of the greatest moment , viz. On what ground we must believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God. You say , Because the Church is infallible , which delivers them to us ; but how should we come to know that she is infallible ? you tell us , By the Motives of Credibility ; very good : But must not every ones reason judge whether these Motives be credible or no ? and whether they belong peculiarly to your Church , so as to prove the Infallibility of it , as it is distinct from all other societies of Christians in the world ? You tell us indeed , That these Motives make it evidently credible ; but must we believe it to be so , because you say so ? If so ; then the ground of believing is not the Credibility of the Motives , but of your Testimony , and therefore you ought to make it evidently true , that whatever you speak is undoubtedly true , which whosoever reads your Book , will hardly be perswaded to . So that of necessity every mans reason must be Judge , whether your Church be infallible or no ; and thus at last you give Reason the Vmpirage in the choice of Religion . And what is there more than this that we contend for ? If there be then any danger of Scepticism , a private spirit , or what other inconveniencies you object against our way of judging the truth of Religion by the Vse of Reason , it will fall much more heavily upon your selves , in this way of believing the Infallibility of the Church on the Motives of Credibility . Therefore I assure you , it were much more consonant to the principles of your party , to tell men , The Infallibility of your Church ought to be taken for granted , and that men are damned for not believing it , though no reason be given for it , but only because you say it ( which is as much as to say , the reason of the Point is , It must needs be so ) then thus to expose it to the scorn and contempt of the world , by offering to prove it by your Motives of Credibility . For unawares you thereby give away the main of your Cause ; for by the very offer of proving it , you make him whom you offer to prove it to , judge whether these proofs be sufficient or no ? and if he be capable to judge of his Guide , certainly he may be of his Way too , considering that he hath , according to us , an Infallible Rule to judge of his Way ; whereas , according to you , he hath but Prudential Motives in the choice of his Guide . Thus , by this Opinion of yours , you have gained thus much , That there is nothing so absurd , which you charge upon us , but it falls unavoidably upon your own head . By this way of resolving Faith , you undermine it ; and leave a sure Foundation for nothing but Scepticism ; which is the last thing to shew the great unreasonableness of this way of yours , that when you are making us believe you are taking the greatest care to make our Religion sure , you cancel our best evidences , and produce nothing but crackt and broken titles , which will not stand any fair tryal at the bar of Reason . And that you make the Foundations of Religion uncertain , I offer to prove by the reason of the thing ; for , if you require that as necessary for Faith , which was never believed to be so , when the Doctrine of Faith was revealed ; if upon the pretence of Infallibility you assert such things , which destroy all the rational evidence of Christian Religion , and if at last you are far from giving the least satisfactory account concerning this Infallibility of your Church ; then certainly we may justly charge you with unsetling the Foundations of Religion , instead of giving us a certain resolution of Faith. 1. You make that necessary to Faith , which was not looked on as such , when the Doctrine of the Gospel was revealed ; and what other design can such a pretence seem to have , than to expose to contempt that Religion which was not received by a true Divine Faith , because it wanted that , which is now thought to be the only sure Foundation of Faith , viz. the Infallibility of the Church of Rome ? What then will become of the Faith of all those who received Divine Revelations , without the infallible Testimony of any Church at all ? With what Faith did the Disciples of Christ at the time of his suffering , believe the Divine Authority of the Old Testament ? was it a true Divine Faith or not ? If it was , whereon was it built ? not certainly on the Infallible Testimony of the Jewish Church , which at that time consented to the death of the Messias , condemning him as a malefactor and deceiver : Or did they believe it because of that great Rational Evidence they had to convince them , that those Prophecies came from God ? If so , why may not we believe the Divinity of all the Scriptures on the same grounds , and with a Divine Faith too ? With what Faith did those believe in the Messias , who were not personally present at the Miracles which our Saviour wrought , but had them conveyed to them by such reports as the woman of Samaria was to the Samaritans ? Or were all such persons excused from believing , meerly because they were not Spectators ? But by the same reason all those would be excused , who never saw our Saviour's miracles , or heard his Doctrine , or his Apostles : But if such persons then were bound to believe , I ask , On what Testimony was their Faith founded ? Was the woman of Samaria infallible , in reporting the discourse between Christ and her ? Were all the persons infallible , who gave an account to others of what Christ did ? yet , I suppose , had it been your own case , you would have thought your self bound to have believed Christ to have been the Messias , if you had lived at that time , and a certain account had been given you of our Saviour's Doctrine and Miracles by men faithful and honest , though you had no reason to have believed them infallible : I pray , Sir , answer me , would you have thought your self bound to have believed , or no ? If you affirm it ( as I will suppose you so much a Christian as to say so ) I pray then tell me , Whether persons in those circumstances might not have a true and Divine Faith , where there was no infallible Testimony , but only Rational Evidence to build it self upon ? And if those persons might have a Divine Faith upon such evidence as that was , may not we much more , who have evidence of the same nature indeed , but much more extensive , universal , and convincing than that was ? And how then can you still assert an infallible Testimony of the conveyers of Divine Revelation , to be necessary to a Divine Faith ? Nay further yet , How very few were there in comparison , in the first Ages of the Christian Church , who received the Doctrine of the Gospel from the mouths of persons infallible ? And of those who did so , what certain evidence have men , That all those persons did receive the Doctrine upon the account of the Infallibility of the propounders , and not rather upon the Rational Evidence of the Truth of the Doctrine delivered ; and whether the belief of their Infallibility was absolutely necessary to Faith , when the report of the Evidences of the Truth of the Doctrine might raise in them an obligation to believe , supposing them not infallible in that delivery of it ; but that they looked on them as honest men , who faithfully related , What they had seen and heard . And this seems the more probable , in that the Apostles themselves , in their undoubtedly divine writings , do so often appeal to their own sufficiency and integrity , without pleading so much their Infallibility . S. John saith , That which we have seen and heard , and handled , declare we unto you . S. Peter appeals to his being an Eye-witness , to make it appear he delivered no cunningly devised fables . S. Luke makes this a ground , That the things were surely believed , because delivered from them who were Eye-witnesses and Ministers of the Word . If they insisted so much upon this Rational Evidence , and so sparingly on their own Infallibility ; certainly they thought the one afforded not a good foundation for Faith , though the other , after believing it , might highly advance it . And therefore I suggest not these things , in the least , to question the Infallibility of the Apostles , but to let us see , that even at that time , when there was a certainly infallible Testimony , yet that is not urged as the only Foundation for Faith , but Rational Evidence produced even by those persons who were thus infallible . If we descend lower in the Christian Church , or walk abroad to view the several Plantations of the Churches at that time , Where do we read or meet with the least intimation of an infallible Testimony of the Catholick Church , so call'd from its Communion with that of Rome ? What infallible Testimony of that Church had the poor Brittains to believe on ? or those Barbarians mentioned in Irenaeus , who yet believed without a written word ? What mention do we meet with , in all the ancient Apologeticks of Christians , wherein they give so large an account of the grounds of Christian Faith , of the modern method for resolving Faith ? Nay , what one ancient Father or Council give the least countenance to this pretended Infallibility , much less make it the only sure Foundation of Faith , as you do ? Nay , how very few are there among your selves who believe it , and yet think themselves never the worse Christians for it ? If then your Doctrine be true , what becomes of the Faith of all these persons mentioned ? Upon your principles their Faith , could not be a true and Divine Faith ; that is , Let them all think they believed the Doctrine of Christ never so heartily , and obeyed it never so conscientiously ; yet because they did not believe it on the Infallibility of your Church , their Faith was but a kind of guilded and splendid Infidelity , and none of them Christians , because not Jesuits . And doth not this principle then fairly advance Christianity in the world , when the belief of it comes to be setled on Foundations never heard of in the best and purest times of it ; nay , such Foundations , as for want of their believing them , their Faith must be all in vain , and Christ dyed in vain for them ? 2. You assert such things upon the pretence of Infallibility , which destroy all the rational evidence of Christian Religion : And what greater disservice could you possibly do to it , than by taking away all the proper grounds of certainty of it ? And , instead of building it super hanc Petram , upon the Rock of Infallibility , you do it only upon a Quick-sand , which swallows up the Edifice , and sucks in the Foundations of it . You would have men to believe the Infallibility of your Church , that their Faith might stand upon sure grounds ; and yet , if men believe this Infallibility of your Church , you require such things to be believed upon it , which destroy all kind of certainty in Religion . And that I prove by some of those principles which are received among you upon the account of the Churches Infallibility . 1. That the judgement of Sense is not to be relyed on , in matters of Faith : This is the great Principle upon which the Doctrine of Transubstantiation stands in your Church ; and this is all , the most considerative men among you have to say , when all those Contradictions are offered to them , which that Doctrine is so big of , both to the judgement of sense and reason , viz. That though it seem so contradictory ; yet because the Church , which is infallible , delivers it , they are bound not to question it . If this Principle then be true , That the judgement of sense is not to be relyed on , in matters which sense is capable of judging of ; it will be impossible for any one to give any satisfactory account of the grand Foundations of Christian Faith. For if we carefully examine the grounds of Certainty in Christian Religion , we find the great appeal made to the judgement of Sense , ( That which we have seen , and heard , and handled . ) If then the judgement of Sense must not be taken in a proper object , at due distance , and in such a thing wherein all mens Senses are equally Judges ; I pray , tell me what assurance the Apostles could have , or any from them , of any miracles which Christ wrought , of any Doctrine which he preached ; especially because in his miracles there was something above nature , in which case men are more apt to suspect Impostures , than in things which are the continual Objects of Sense , as in the case of Transubstantiation ? Wherein , if men are not bound to rely on the judgement of Sense , you must say , that our Faculties are so made , that they may be imposed upon , in the proper Objects of them ; and if so , farewell all Certainty , not only in Religion , but in all things else in the world . For what assurance can I have of the knowledge of any thing , if I find that my Faculties not only may be , but I am bound to believe that they actually are , deceived in a thing that is as proper an Object of sense , as any in the world . And if a thing , which the judgement of all mankind ( those excepted who have given away their sense and reason in this present case ) doth unanimously concurr in , may be false ; What evidence can we have , when any thing is true ? For , if a thing so plain and evident to our Senses may be false , viz. That what I and all other men see , is bread , what ground of certainty can we have , but that which my Senses , and all other mens judge to be false , may be true ? For by this means you take away the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both of Sense and Reason in things , and consequently , all things are equally true and false to us ; and thence it follows , That Truth and Falshood are but Fancies , that our Faculties have no means to difference the one from the other , that in things we all agree in , as proper objects of Sense , we not only may be , but are deceived ; and then farewell Sense , Reason and Religion together . For , I pray , Tell me what Assurance could the Apostles have of the Resurrection of Christ's Individual Body from the grave , but the Judgement of Sense ? What waies did he use to convince them , that he was not a Spectre or Apparition , but by an appeal to their Senses ? by what means did he reclaim Thomas from his Infidelity , but by bidding him make use of his Senses ? If Thomas had believed Transubstantiation , he would easily have answered our Saviours Argument , and told him , If there were not a productive , yet there might be an Adductive Transmutation of some other person into him : And the Disciples might all have said , It was true , there were the accidents of Christ's Body , the external shape and figure of it ; but , for all they could discern , there might be some Invisible Spirit under those external accidents of shape : and therefore they must desire to be excused from believing it to be his Body ; for , Hoc est corpus meum , had told them already , That the external accidents might remain , where the substance was changed . Now therefore , when the Assurance of Christian Religion came from the judgement of the Senses of those who were Eye-witnesses of the Miracles and the Resurrection of Christ ; if the Senses of men may be so grosly deceived in the proper Objects of them in the case of Transubstantiation , what assurance could they themselves have , who were Eye-witnesses of them ? and how much less assurance can we have , who have all our Evidence from the certainty of their report ? So that it appears upon the whole , that , take away the certainty of the judgement of Sense , you destroy all Certainty in Religion ; for , Tradition only conveys to us now , what was originally grounded upon the judgement of Sense , and delivers to us in an undoubted manner , that which the Apostles saw and heard . And do not you then give a very good account of Religion by the Infallibility of your Church ; when , if I believe your Church to be infallible , I must by vertue of that Infallibility , believe something to be true , which if it be true , there can be no certainty at all of the Truth of Christian Religion . 2. Another principle is , That we can have no certainty of any of the grounds of Faith , but from the Infallibility of your present Church . Whereby you do these two things . 1. Destroy the obligation to Faith which ariseth from the rational evidence of Christian Religion . 2. Put the whole stress of the truth of Christianity upon the proofs of your Churches Infallibility ; by which things any one may easily see what tendency your doctrine of resolving Faith hath , and how much it designs the overthrow of Christianity . 1. You destroy the obligation to Faith from the rational evidence of Christian Religion , by telling men , as you do expresly in the very Title of your next Chapter , That there can be no unquestionable assurance of Apostolical Tradition , but for the infallible authority of the present Church . If so , then men cannot have any unquestionable assurance that there was such a Person as Christ in the world , that he wrought such great miracles for confirmation of his Doctrine , that he dyed and rose again ; it seems we can have no assurance of these things if the present Church be not Infallible . And if we can have no assurance of them , what obligation can lye upon us to believe them ? for , assurance of the matters of fact which are the foundations of Faith , is necessary in order to the obligation to believe ; I mean such an assurance as matters of fact are capable of ; for no higher can be required then the nature of things will bear . And what a strange assertion then is this , that matters of fact cannot be conveyed to us in an unquestionable manner , unless the present Church stamp her Infallibility upon them ? Cannot we have an unquestionable assurance that there were such persons as Caesar and Pompey , and that they did such and such things , without some infallible testimony ? if we may in such things , why not in other matters of fact which infinitely more concern the world to know then whatever Caesar or Pompey did ? But this will be more at large examined afterwards ; I only now take notice of the consequence of this principle , and how fairly it destroyes all rational evidence of the truth of our Religion ; which whosoever takes away will be by force of reason , a Sceptick in the first place , and an Infidel in the second . Neither is the danger meerly in destroying the rational evidence of Religion ; but , 2. In putting the whole weight of Religion upon the proofs of the present Churches infallibility , which whosoever considers how silly and weak they are , cannot sufficiently wonder at the design of those men , who put the most excellent Religion in the world , and which is built upon the highest and truest reason to such a strange kind of Ordeal tryal , that if she pass not through this St. Winifreds needle , her innocency must be suspected , and her truth condemned . So that whosoever questions the truth of this kind of Purgation , will have a greater suspition of a juggle and imposture if she be acquitted , then if she had never submitted to such a tryal . And when we come to examine the proofs brought for this Infallibility , it will then further appear , what uncertainty in Religion men are betrayed to , under this confident pretext of Infallibility . Thus we see what Scepticism in Religion the principles owned upon the account of Infallibility , do bring men to . 3. When you have brought men to this , that the only sure ground of Faith is the Infallibility of your Church , you are not able to give them any satisfactory account at all concerning it ; but plunge them into greater uncertainties then ever they were in before . For you can neither satisfie them what that Church is which you suppose Infallible , what in that Church is the proper subject of this Infallibility , what kind of Infallibility this is , nor how we should know when the Church doth decide Infallibly and when not ; and yet every one of these questions is no less then absolutely necessary to be resolved , in order to the satisfaction of mens minds , as to the foundation of their Faith. 1. You cannot satisfie men What that Church is which you suppose to be Infallible . Certainly , if you had a design to give men a certain foundation for their Faith , you would not be so shy of discovering what it is you understand by that Church which you would have Infallible ; if you had meant honestly , the first thing you should have done was to have prevented all mistakes concerning the meaning of the Church , when you know what various significations it hath , not only in Scripture , but among your selves . Whether you mean the Church essential , representative , or vertual , for every one of these upon occasion you make use of : and it was never more necessary to have explained them then in this place , and yet you with wonderful care and industry avoid any intimation of what you mean by that Church which you would prove Infallible . When you plead so earnestly for the Churches Infallibility , I pray tell us what you mean by the Church ; do you intend the truly Catholick and Vniversal Church which comprehends in it all such as own and profess the Doctrine of Christ , in which sense it was well said by Abulensis , Ecclesia universalis nunquam errat , quia nunquam tota errat , The universal Church never erres , because the whole Church is never deceived . Or , do you mean by your Catholick Church some particular part of it , to which you apply the name of Catholick not for Vniversality of extent , but soundness of Doctrine ? then it will be necessary yet further , to shew what part of the Church that is , by what right and title that hath engrossed the name of Catholick , so as to exclude other Societies of Christians from it ; and whether you must not first prove the absolute integrity and soundness of her Doctrine , before you can attribute this title to it . For otherwise you will find that marvellously true , which the same Tostatus saith , Ecclesia Latinorum non est Ecclesia Vniversalis sed quaedam pars ejus : ideò etiamsi tota ipsa errâsset , non errabat Ecclesia Vniversalis , quia manet Ecclesia Vniversalis in partibus illis quae non errant , sive illae sint numero plures quàm errantes , sive non . So that if you prove the Infallibility of the Catholick Church , this proves nothing at all as to the Roman Church , which at most can be supposed to be but a part of it , and though that should err , the Catholick Church might not err , because that remains in those parts which err not , though they be more or less in number then those that err . This is the sense of his words ; who seemed to have a much truer conception of the Vniversal Church , than those now of your Sect and Party . If then we may believe the Church to be infallible , and yet , in the mean time , condemn your Church for the grossest Errours : Will it not be found necessary for you , to tell us yet more distinctly , What you mean by the Church you would prove Infallible ? But , supposing that only those parts you esteem Catholick , make up the Catholick Church , even among them the Question will still return , What you mean by this Catholick Church ; Do you mean all the Individual Persons in this number , taken either distributively or collectively ? or , Do you mean , all those who are entrusted with the Government of these ? and then , Whether all Inferiour Pastors , or only Bishops ? And if Bishops , Whether all these collectively , or else by way of Representation in a Council ? and still remember to make it good , that what you pitch upon as the acception of the Church , be not an effect of humane Policy , as Albertus Pighius said , All Councils were no more ; but that what you fasten the acception of the Church-Catholick upon , you be sure to make it out , that is the Catholick Church to whom the Promises are made in Scripture : And , be sure to tell us , How a Church comes to be infallible by Representation ? Whether as they , who make the Church representative , deliver the sense of the Church they represent ; or by an immediate Promise made to them upon their Convention . If the former , Whether it will not be necessary , in order to the Infallibility of the Council , to know , that it speaks the sense of all those particular Churches whom they represent : If the latter , you must remember such places as belong to them , as representing the Church ; for otherwise any company of Christians assembled together , will challenge an equal interest in them ; and then you will find it a hard matter to prove one infallible , and not the other . But , if after all this , your Windmill should dwindle into a Nutcracker , and this harangue concerning the Infallibility of the Catholick Church , should at last end in one particular Person ; which by a strange Catachresis , must be call'd the Church , or else , as Heir at Law to her , doth take possession of all her priviledges . Then the Testament must be produced wherein he is named so , and those clauses especially , wherein the rights and priviledges of her are devolved over to him and his Heirs for ever . There being then so much ambiguity and uncertainty in the very name of the Church-Catholick , which you would prove infallible , that if nothing else discovered your Imposture , yet this would sufficiently , that you would undertake to resolve Mens Faith by the Infallibility of the Church , and yet never offer to shew what that Church is . 2. Supposing you had shewn what the Church is , yet you never tell us what the subject of Infallibility is in that Church . For , when in this case you speak of Infallibility , you must remember you are not to shew what that Church is , which is not deceived in judging concerning things necessary to Salvation , but what that Church is , which is infallible in her Direction of others to Salvation : For , you speak of such an Infallibility as must be a Guide to others , and whose infallible judgement must be known to all such who must resolve their Faith into her Testimony : You would have done then no more than was absolutely necessary to have precisely shewn us where this infallibility is lodged in your Church ; whether in Pope or Council , or both together . I suppose it can be no news either to you , or to the Reader , what Controversies there are among the greatest of your side , whether the Pope or Council be the greater , and to whom this Infallibility belongs ; neither are either side fully agreed in their own way , for some that are for the Infallibility of a general Council , will make that infallible without the Pope , others account that opinion , if not haeretical , the next step to it . Those who are for the Pope's Infallibility , are not agreed neither when he shall be said to be infallible : They who speak Oracles tell us , when he doth define ex Cathedrâ , but what that is , neither they nor we can well tell ; some say it is , when he hath a Congregation of chosen Cardinals about him , others make the whole Colledge of Cardinals necessary , and therefore some in the late Definition concerning the Jansenists were refractory , because it was defined only by a Congregation of chosen Cardinals , which they said , was not defining ex Cathedrâ : some again make neither of these necessary , but suppose the Infallibility lodged in the Pope himself . And are we not at a fine pass for the certainty of our Faith , if it must rely upon the infallible Testimony of your Church ; and yet you your selves not at all agreed to whom this Infallible Testimony doth belong ? Think not that we will be put off with that silly evasion , That these differences among you hinder not the certainty of Faith , because it is not de fide either way . For 1. How shall we come to know among you what is de fide , and what not , till you are agreed to whom this Infallibility belongs ? And if it belongs to a general Council , then it is de fide ; for it was determined at the Council of Basil , in behalf of the Council , and therefore if one of the opinions be true , it must be de fide ; for , I suppose you make that to be so , which is determined by the infallible Testimony of your Church . 2. How shall a man believe , that any thing at all is de fide among you , if that on which your Faith is to rest , be not de fide ? For , supposing a difference to happen , which hath often done between the Pope and Council , and they decree contrary things to each other , if it be not de fide , to believe either the one or the other distinctly to be infallible , upon what Testimony at such a time must that which supposeth the infallible Testimony of your Church rely ? 3. If it be said not to be de fide , because not determined ; by the same reason your Churches Infallibility cannot be de fide , because not determined neither : For , if the Determination of the Church be necessary to make any thing de fide , it must by the same reason be necessary to make your Churches Infallibility de fide ; and , I suppose , you will not readily instance in any decree of the Catholick Church , where the Testimony of your Church is determined to be infallible . And yet one would imagine , that if there were such a necessity in order to Faith , of the Infallible Testimony of your Church , there would be an equal necessity of believing this Infallibility on the same Testimony : or if one may believe one Article especially so important a one as that , without any precedent infallible Testimony , why not any other , nay , why not all the rest ? Thus you still see , how uncertainties grow upon us , when we search into your account of Faith. 3. You are not certain neither , What kind of Infallibility this is ; For you offer to prove the Church infallible , by the same way that Moses , Christ , and his Apostles were proved infallible : A very fair Offer , if you could make it good ; but then we were in hopes you would have proved such a kind of Infallibility as they had ; you tell us , No : for your Infallibility is Supernatural , but not Divine ; that it is precise Infallibility , but not absolute ; that it is not by immediate Revelation , but by immediate Assistance of the Holy Ghost : Something you would have , but you cannot tell what ; an Infallibility in the Conclusion , without any in the Vse of means ; an Infallibility by immediate Assistance of the Holy Ghost , yet but in a sort Divine ; an Infallibility yielding nothing to Scripture in point of Supernaturality and Certainty , yet nothing so infallible as Scripture . Are not these brave things to make wise men certain in their Religion with ! that they are to believe the Scriptures upon a Testimony infallible , yet not infallible ; divine , yet not divine ; and therefore certain , but not certain ; true , but not true . But of the silliness of these Distinctions , afterwards . But , can you think to perswade wise or rational men to believe their Religion on such terms as these are ? Had they no other evidence than what you give them , would they not be shrewdly tempted to reject all Religion , as a meer Imposture , as no doubt your Doctrine of Infallibility is ? A strange kind of Talisman , which secures your Pope from a possibility of erring , but still he must be under the certain direction of his Stars ; for , if he be not in Cathedrâ , this Telesm doth him no good at all . It were heartily to be wished , if he should once happen to be in Cathedrâ , he would infallibly determine what it was to be in Cathedrâ for ever after ; for it would ease mens minds of a great many troublesome scruples , which they cannot , without some infallible Determination , get themselves quit of . But still we are bound to believe your Church infallible : But , I pray , whence comes this Infallibility ? Comes it from Heaven , or is it of Men ? From Heaven , no doubt , you say ; for it is by a promise of the Holy Ghost . This were something , if it were proved ; but yet you maintain this Infallibility in such a manner , that none that read the Scriptures could ever think , it were promised there . For there they alwaies read , That the Spirit of Truth is a Spirit of Holiness , and never dwells in those who are carnal or wicked men ; but , you tell us , That let the lives of Popes be what they will , they have no promise to secure them from being wicked , but the Spirit of God doth by immediate Assistance secure them from being fallible . But , I pray , Which of these two is not only more contrary to Scripture , but to Humane Nature ; Wickedness or Fallibility ? This latter , so consequent upon the imperfection of our understandings , that , till we put off the one , we can hardly be freed from the other ; but Wickedness is that which the whole design of Christian Religion is against , and administers the highest Motives , and the greatest Assistance for the conquest of ; and can it then be thought suitable to such a Doctrine , that the Divine Spirit should , like Mahomet's Dove , be alwaies ready to whisper in the ear of the most profligate person , if it be but his fortune to sit in Cathedrá ? Such a kind of Infallibility as this , I assure you , will never prevail with any such persons , who understand Christian Religion , to believe the Doctrine of it upon such pretences as yours are . 4. Supposing , you could tell men intelligibly and suitably to the Doctrine of Christianity , What kind of Infallibility this is ; yet if you cannot satisfie them , When your Church doth define infallibly , you leave them still in the same Labyrinth , without any clue to direct them out of it . But , if we consider what things are necessary to be believed , before we can believe any definition of your Church infallible , how impossible it is to be infallibly assured of any such definition of your Church , sure you cannot blame us for crying out of the Labyrinth you have brought us into . 1. How many things in Christian Religion are to be believed , before we can imagine any such thing as an infallible Testimony of your Church ? And if the Infallibility of that be the ground of Faith , on what account must those things be believed , which are antecedent to the belief of such an infallible Testimony ? Now , that many things , and some of them far from being clear , are to be believed antecedently to an infallible Testimony , will appear ; if we do but consider what they commonly mean by that Church , which they suppose infallible , and what must be supposed , that this Infallibility be the Rule of Faith. By the Church , they tell you , they mean the Catholick Church : but lest you should think them too honest in saying so , at next word it is , the Roman-Catholick Church ( just as if one should say , the German-Vniversal Emperour . ) But lest you should think at least they meant the Roman Church of all Ages , and think you might have some relief from the Primitive Roman Church , they will soon rectifie your mistakes , by telling you , it is the present Roman-Church they mean ; but if it be the present Roman-Church , it may be you would be willing to hear the judgement of all the honest men in that Church , and that you hope many of the people and learned men ( not in Orders ) may speak their minds freely . To prevent that , they tell you they mean only the representative Church . But still the Bishops , who make up this representative Church , may in their several Synods complain of abuses , and rectifie miscarriages ; therefore they understand not Bishops by themselves , or particular Synods , but met together in General Councils . But yet , if the Councils were truly Oecumenical , there might be some hopes of redress . But for that they are sure ; for they allow none to be members of the General Councils , which are in Schism or Heresie ; and their own Church is to be Judge , what Schism and Heresie is ; and they are hugely to blame then , if they admit any but those of their own party . But yet , some Councils have stood upon their priviledges in opposition to the Pope , as those of Constance and Basil. Therefore , to make all sure , no Council is lawful in it self , or its decrees bind the Church , but such as is call'd and confirmed by the Pope : who is strangely to blame then , if he suffers any thing to pass to his own prejudice : So that this Infallibility of the Pope , is the last resort in the resolution of Faith ; for all the rest , we see , are uncertain . And what a vast measure of Faith ( greater than that which our Saviour said , would remove mountains ) is necessary to believe this Infallibility of the Pope ? for in the first place , unless he believes the particular Roman-Church to be the Catholick Church , he spoils all the Conjuring afterwards , with not having Faith enough about him . Again , he must believe , that Christ hath promised an Infallible Assistance to the Pastors of the Church as distinct from the People ; but this avails little still , unless he believes these Credentials must not be opened , but in full Council ; and that Council such a one as the Pope calls , and in which himself presides , either in Person , or by his Legates , and that the Decrees of the Council oblige not the Church , without the Pope's Confirmation ; and to that end you must believe , that S. Peter was made Monarch of the Church by Christ ; that this Monarchy was to be derived to all his Successors in all places ; but as to this ( where-ever he was besides ) he never had any Successor any where but at Rome : And these Successors of his at Rome , cannot for their lives err , if they do but sit in Cathedrâ . Certainly he that hath Faith to swallow all these things , is hugely to blame if he stick at any thing ; and by that time a man's understanding is debauched sufficiently by these Principles , I make no question but such a one will believe Infallibility , Transubstantiation , or any thing in the world . But beside these things , in order to the making the Churches Testimony the Rule of Faith to any one , there must another dose of Principles be taken , which have Opium enough in them to lay asleep all the remainders of reason : For he must infallibly believe the Church to be infallible , though no infallible Argument be brought for the proof of it ; That this Church doth judicially and authoritatively pronounce her Sentence in matters of Faith , though we know not what that Church is , which must so pronounce ; That he infallibly know that this particular Sentence was so pronounced , though he can have no other than Moral Means of knowing it ; And lastly , That the Infallibility must be the first thing believed , although all these things must of necessity be believed before it . And if after this second Purgation , he be not a true Son of the Church of Rome , he deserves to be Anathematized as an obstinate person , for having any thing of reason in him . Therefore I wonder not that the Doctrine of Infallibility seems no strange thing to you ; for a man must devour such Giant-like Absurdities , before he comes to it , that when he comes at it , he finds it nothing . But still , one would think it a little strange , that this Infallibility should be the only Foundation of believing all things in Religion ; and yet so many things , and some of them very strange ones , must of necessity be certainly believed before it . 2. Supposing a man not only believes all these things before it , but doth really believe your Church infallible , yet he is uncertain still how he should know When your Church defines infallibly . For so many things are required in reference to the Person defining , so many for the definition it self , that it will be no easie matter to remove those difficulties which lye in the way of his Assent to such a Definition . As to the Person , if he be not a Christian , if he be not a Priest , if not a Lawful Pope , all his Definitions are far from being infallible ; yet none of all these can any one be assured of according to your Principles of the intention of the Priest being necessary in the administration of Sacraments , in order to the effect of them . ( But the large train of Consequences following from hence , I forbear to urge you with , because they have been so often urged by abler Pens . ) But , What will you say , when we are so far from assurance , as to the Pope's being legally chosen , that we have , if not great Evidence , yet very high Presumptions of the contrary , what becomes then of your Pope's Infallibility ? Nay , from the illegality of one , follows the illegality of all his Successors , because they were chosen by Cardinals , made by him ; who could be no lawful Cardinals , because he was no legal Pope , and consequently not they who were made by them . The case is this ; There is a Bull of Pope Julius the second , against the Simoniacal Election of any Pope , which the Cardinals , upon their first entrance into the Conclave , swear solemnly to observe . In which Bull it is expresly said , That if any Pope be Simoniacally chosen by any of the Cardinals , upon any gift or promise whatsoever , that such an Election is ipso facto null ; and the Cardinals may oppose one so chosen , as if guilty of manifest Heresie ; and that none ought to receive or look on such a one as Pope ; neither can this Simoniacal Election be made good by inthronisation , course of time , submission of Cardinals , &c. And that they ought all to avoid him as a Magician , Heathen , Publican , or the Founder of Heresie . This is the substance of that Bull. Now it is notoriously known , that Sixtus the fifth , was Simoniacally chosen Pope . For , that he might be chosen , he did under his hand promise to Cardinal d'Este , who had a great interest in the Conclave , that in the time of his Popedome , he would never create Jerome Matthew , the Cardinals great enemy , a Cardinal : upon which promise he was through his interest chosen Pope . But , when afterwards the Pope violated his Faith to him , by creating his enemy Cardinal ; d'Este , being highly incensed against him for it , sent the very instrument subscribed by the Pope's own hand , to Philip the second King of Spain , who in the year 1589. sent the Duke of Suisse extraordinary Embassador to Rome , to intimate to Sixtus the fifth , his intention of calling a General Council , according to the Bull of Julius the second , for declaring this Simoniacal Election . When this Message was delivered to the Pope , and he saw the Instrument was discovered under his own hand , he fell into such a perplexity , that he dyed soon after , which stopt the progress of the business . By this it evidently appears , that Sixtus himself was no lawful Pope , and therefore could create no Cardinals : and , because the Cardinals created by him , had a voice in the Election of the subsequent Popes ; it follows , That there hath been no legal Pope since Sixtus the fifth . For , after the death of Sixtus , Cardinal Montallo his Nephew , with forty Votes entred the Conclave , and chose Vrban the seventh , who lived but few daies ; after him Gregory the fourteenth , who was Pope but ten months ; after him Innocentius the ninth , who continued but two months ; after him Clement the eighth , who out-lived the Election thirteen years . But not to enquire any further into the irregular Election , and the Simoniacal bargains of Paul the fifth , after the death of Clement ; this certainly may suffice to let men see , what becomes of their Faith , when they pin it upon the Pope's sleeve : For , if we are to rely upon his infallible Testimony , and he so far from being infallible , that by their own Constitutions he was no Pope , nor to be looked on as other than a Magician , Heathen , and Heretick , is not our Faith then setled on a sure Foundation ? For what assurance can any one have , that amidst all the enormities , and secret practices of the Conclave , any one is freely and legally chosen ? but , Where will his Faith stand , when it is notorious , that a Cardinal must say , Dabo tibi claves , and that not without a Contract too . But , suppose all the assurance that may be of the person who is to deliver this infallible Testimony ; yet at the utmost , the most men in the world can have no more than a Moral Certainty of the Definition it self . If we can imagine , that any one should know that great mystery , when the Pope should define ex Cathedrâ ; yet , can he have any greater evidence of such a Definition , than we have concerning the things revealed in Scripture ? I cannot think that you will suppose any greater evidence of it , than if one sees and hears it ; and , what do we desire less in reference to the Doctrine of Christ ? But how few in the world are there , who stand by , when the Pope defines ? May others be certain of such a Definition or no , so as to be obliged to believe it ? If not , What good can this Infallibility do them ? if they may , Why do you quarrel with our way as uncertain ? when if you grant your Infallibility , you cannot prescribe any more certain way , but one much more liable to question and dispute than ours is . Thus you see what little advantage you get by all these bravado's about Infallibility ; and that you are so far from giving a satisfactory account of Faith , that you expose Christian Religion to more doubts , scruples , and uncertainties , than ever before . Which may abundantly shew to all unprejudiced minds , the great unreasonableness of your way of resolving Faith , which was the thing to be proved . 2. But , suppose your way to be never so reasonable , yet if it effect not that it was brought for , it deserves little favour from inquisitive persons , and that I now come to evince , viz. That supposing your Church infallible , and that Infallibility proved by the Motives of Credibility , you do not escape the circle objected against your way . And really , whosoever considers your way of management of things , will find , that though you give out great words , and pretend to prove the Churches Infallibility , as Moses and Christ's was proved ; yet your eye was all the while on nothing but the circle , and thought , if you could get rid of that , you should do well enough with any thing else . For , as though this circle had ridden you like an Ephialtes , you tumble , and groan , and toss this way and that , and when you think your self freed from it , it sits as close upon you as ever . When you come so miserably off with the proofs of your Churches Infallibility , you satisfie your self with this ; 'T is sufficient for the present to have declared how the Catholicks fall not into a circle , as his Lordship here pretends they do . Though this could not be sufficient for your design , who had promised in the page foregoing , to prove at large the Infallibility of the Church ; yet you had done somewhat , if you had done this , which , if I much mistake not , you are as much to seek in , as in the proofs of your Churches Infallibility . And that I prove by three things , from the nature of that Faith whose resolution you promise , from the persons you prove it to , from the nature of that Infallibility which you attempt to prove . 1. From the nature of that Faith , you are enquiring a resolution for , which is not that which you call a Humane Faith , but a Divine Faith. When you go about to prove the Churches Infallibility , by the Motives of Credibility , is it a Divine Faith or no , which may be built on these Motives ? chuse which part you please . If it be , then by your own Confession , a Divine Faith may be built on Prudential Motives ; if it be not , then what is all this to the purpose ? For the Question is not , Whether by any other kind of Assent you cannot avoid the circle ; but , Whether in the resolution of Divine Faith you can or no ? For , I hope , you deny not , but the Scriptures and the Churches Infallibility are both to be believed with the same kind of Assent , built upon an infallible Testimony ; in this case I then ask , Why , with a Divine Faith , you believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God ? You answer , Because the Church , which is infallible , delivers them so to us . If I then ask , Why with a Divine Faith you believe the Churches Infallibility ? Answer me if you can , any other way , than because the Scriptures , which are infallible , say so . And thus you see , it is only your running away from the Question , makes you think your self out of the circle , and not any satisfactory Answer to it . Will you , or dare you say , That is an Assent of the same nature , which is built on the Motives of Credibility , with that which is grounded on an infallible Testimony ? If it be not , bethink your self of a new Answer : if it be , bethink your self of a new Way to oppose us , and not to think it sufficient to charge us with building Divine Faith , on Prudential Motives , when you do it your self . But , if you should assert that to be a Divine Faith , which is built on the Motives of Credibility , you not only contradict your self , but the great Ones of your own party . For your Becanus saith , That these Motives are the Foundation only of a prudent Assent , but not Infallible ; and Valentius goes much higher , and tells us , The Faith grounded on these Motives is not divine , or infused , but acquisite , that it is in its nature uncertain and fallible , that it cannot be the Foundation of Christian Faith. If this be true , To what end do you go about to resolve Faith upon such uncertainties , in hopes to escape the circle you see others in . Thus you see , how insufficient your attempt is , because you speak not of the same kind of Assent as to the Scripture , and the Church . 2. You avoid not the Circle by the different considerations of the persons you offer to prove the Infallibility of the Church and Scripture to . You tell us , That when you prove the Infallibility of the Church by Scripture , you make use only of Arguments ad hominem , and argue ex principiis concessis against Sectaries , who deny the Infallibility of your Church , but admit the Divine Authority of the Scriptures , and therefore you may justly use Scripture-arguments against them . I grant it : but still I say , you avoid not the Circle by this subterfuge neither . For , 1. The question is not , Which way you will prove the Infallibility of the Church against those who deny it ; but which way you resolve your own faith of the Churches Infallibility ? therefore this signifies nothing at all as to your Question about the resolution of Faith ; for I suppose you build not that on any thing which your adversary grants or denyes . Is there no difference between the way of proving a thing to an adversary , and the resolving ones own Faith ? I question not , but you may dispute with him upon Principles he grants and you deny ; but , I should think you no wise man to build your Faith upon such Principles . So that this evasion comes not near the business . 2. Even in disputing against your Adversaries you cannot avoid the circle , which I thus prove . You offer to prove to them the Church to be Infallible out of Scripture ; for this you bring them particular places , and think presently to vanquish them with , Super hanc Petram , Pasce oves , & Dabo tibi claves ; but hence ariseth another Question , How you come infallibly to know , that this is the sense of those places ? You know , your Adversaries presently deny any such thing as Infallibility to be proved out of them . And , what way have you to assure them , this is the sense of them , but because your Church , which is infallible , delivers this to be the sense of them . And is not this then a plain circle ? You are to believe the Church infallible , because the Scripture saith so ; and you are to believe the Scripture saith so , because the Church is infallible . If this be not still a plain circle , you may question whether there be any such figure in Mathematicks . 3. I prove you cannot avoid the Circle from your own Confession of the nature of that Infallibility , which you say is in the Church . For you tell us , That the Churches Testimony doth not suppose any new Revelation from God , but only a supernatural Assistance of the Holy Ghost , preserving her from all errour in defining the Points of Christian Faith. By this Assertion , you destroy all possibility of avoiding the Circle by the Motives of Credibility ; for if these had proved an immediate Divine Revelation in the Church , I confess you had proved the Churches Infallibility independently on Scripture ; but , when you offer to prove only a Divine Assistance with the Church , in delivering former Revelations , you cannot : and the reason is , because you can bring no ground at all why such an Assistance should be necessary in the Church ; or why it should be expected but from the Promises made in Scripture concerning such an Assistance of God's Spirit to be with the Church : and therefore the utmost your Motives of Credibility can pretend to , is only to notifie that Church from others , which you suppose infallible : but still the formal reason of your beleeving this Infallibility , cannot be from those Motives , but upon those Promises which you suppose to import such an Assistance of the Holy Ghost with the Church , which shall secure her from errour : So that still the Circle returns upon you : For , you believe the Scriptures infallible , because of the Churches Testimony ; and you believe the Church infallible , because of the Promises in Scripture concerning the Assistance of the Holy Ghost with the Church , so as to secure her from all errour . And thus , I hope , I have made good this general Attempt upon your way of resolving Faith , by manifesting the great unreasonableness , and manifest insufficiency of it . I now come to handle the particulars of this Chapter , which consists of two things , Proofs and Evasions , the Proofs you produce for your Churches Infallibility , and your Evasions as to those Arguments which are objected by his Lordship . Both of these will deserve our Consideration ; and if it appear , that your Proofs are weak , and your Evasions silly , you will have no great cause to triumph in this Attempt of yours . As to your Proofs , two things are considerable , your Method of proving , and the Proofs themselves . I begin with the first , which you deliver in these words . Wherefore , as to the last demand ( in which only there is difficulty viz. How we know the Church to be infallibly governed by the Holy Ghost ; we answer , that we prove it first in general , not by the Scripture , but by the Motives of Credibility , which belong to the Church , in the same manner as the Infallibity of Moses , and other Prophets , of Christ and his Apostles was proved , which was by the Miracles they wrought , and by other signs of an Infallible Spirit , direction , and guidance from God , which appeared in them . Whence it is clear , that we incurr no circle . That , supposing all that true which you said before , yet thereby you avoid not the circle , I shall take it for granted , I have already proved , till you better inform me : Our business now therefore is , to consider , which way you prove this Infallibility of your Church , which you tell us , is not by Scripture ( for which I commend your ingenuity ) but by the Motives of Credibility . But , lest any should think this a weak way of probation , you tell us , It is in the same manner that the Infallibility of all persons divinely inspired was proved , not excepting Christ himself . A most heroical and generous Attempt ! For which the Church of Rome is infinitely obliged to you , if you make it good : For then it necessarily follows , that there is as great danger in not believing the Infallibility of your Church , as in not believing Moses and the Prophets , Christ and his Apostles . For , where there is an equal obligation to believe , there is an equal sin in not believing ; and where the sin is equal , it stands to reason that the punishment should be so too . I suppose you deny not , but , Where there are equal Motives inducing to believe , there results an equal Obligation to Faith , because the Grounds obliging to assent , can be no other than the Motives inducing to it ; and if these Motives be as strong and evident for your Churches Infallibility ▪ as for that of Moses and Christ , men must be as much obliged now to believe your Church infallible , as , that Moses and Christ were so . So that the denial of your Churches Infallibility , must needs be accounted by you to be as high a piece of Infidelity , as if one should call in question the Infallibility of Christ himself . For you assert , That you have the same Proofs for the Infallibility of your Church , which there were to prove him infallible . I do not therefore wonder at your sharpness and severity in your censures of all out of your Church , when upon your Principles the denying your Churches Infallibility , must needs be an offence of as high a nature , as if one denied the Infallibility of the Sacred Scriptures . But , lest you should not think these any Absurdities at all , we must come yet closer to the examination of your Proofs : For which we must enquire into these two things . 1. Whether the same Motives of Credibility belong to your Church , by which Moses and the Prophets , Christ and his Apostles , shewed their Testimony to be infallible . 2. Whether , on supposition you had the same Motives , there were the same reason to believe the Testimony of your Church Infallible , as there was to believe Them to be so . 1. Whether the same Motives of Credibility belong to your Church or no. And here again , these things offer themselves to consideration . 1. By what means their Testimony was proved infallible . 2. Whether your Churches Testimony can be proved by the same Motives or no. For the first , you are pleased to give us this account , Why Moses was accounted infallible ; for the Israelites seeing Moses to be a person very devout , mild , charitable , and chaste , and endowed with the gift of working miracles , were upon that ground obliged to receive him for a true Prophet ; and to believe him infallible , by acknowledging as true and certain , whatever he proposed to them from God. All which I acknowledge to be very true ; but am much to seek , how you will apply it to the proving your Churches Infallibility . What kind of Miracles those are which your Church pretends to , will be examined afterwards ; the other Motives of Credibility mentioned , are Devotion , Mildness , Charity , and Chastity ; and these , I suppose , you look on as those Motives , which must induce men to believe the Infallibility of your Church . But , do you really think , that every person who is devout , mild , charitable , and chast , is therefore infallible ? If not , to what purpose do you produce them here ? if you do , some out of your Church may be as infallible as those in it . Especially , if your superstitious Ceremonies be the greatest part of your devotion ; and your burning of Hereticks , the Argument of your mildness ; and your damning all out of your Church , be the best evidence of your Charity ; and the lives of your Popes , the most pregnant Instances of your Churches Chastity . The rest of your discourse , wherein you endeavour after your way , to prove tha there were sufficient Motives of Credibility , to believe the Testimony of Christ and his Apostles , I suppose no Christian will deny ; and that the Miracles wrought by them , were Proofs that their Testimony was infallible , I am so far from questioning , that all your other Motives signifie nothing without them . Which , because it hath so great an influence on the present dispute , I think it necessary to be a little further cleared , than it is by you , and chiefly for this end , to let you see , how much you have befooled your self in attempting to prove the Infallibility of your Church , in the same manner that Christ and his Apostles Infallibility was proved in , and yet insisting on that of Miracles , as the great evidence of their Infallibility , which your Church cannot with any face pretend to . I acknowledge it then as a great Truth , that it was necessary , that the Testimony of all such who pretend to be infallible , must be confirmed by such Miracles , as Christ and his Apostles wrought ; Nay , that it is impossible , without such Evidence , to prove any Testimony infallible , where that Infallibility is pretended to , independently upon Scripture , as it is in your present case . Which will be thus made evident : Absolute Infallibility is not consistent with the shortness of the Humane Vnderstanding , for such an Infallibility must suppose an infinity of Knowledge ; for , where there is a defect in the Apprehension , there is a possibility of deception ; therefore only an Infinite Being can be absolutely infallible . Now , man's Vnderstanding being so finite , and limited in its Conceptions , it is on that account apt to be imposed upon , and to form false Notions of things ; so that supposing no Being in the world of greater Perfections than man is , there never could be any such thing as Infallibility among men . For , though some mens Vnderstandings might outstrip others in the quickness of Conception , and solidity of Judgement ; yet the Nature of Man being thus finite , that presumption would lye against all pretence of Infallibility . It being then impossible , that mans understanding should be in it self infallible , we must consider , whether there be a possibility it should receive any Infallibility from that Infinite Being , which is above it . This then must be taken for granted , that as an Infinite Vnderstanding cannot be deceived , so Infinite Goodness cannot deceive . And therefore , whatever doth immediately proceed from a Being infinitely Wise and Good , cannot but be infallibly True. And there is no repugnancy at all , in the nature of the thing , but that this Infinite Being may , in a way certain , but imperceptible by us , communicate to the Minds of Men such Notions of things , which are the effects of his own Wisdom and Counsel : and this is that we call Divine Inspiration . But then we are still to consider , That the understanding of a finite Creature , cannot be any further infallible , than as it receives those Notions which are imprinted upon it by the Infinite and Supreme Intellect of the world ; and such a person is no further infallible in what he speaks , than as he delivers to the world those very Conceptions , which are thus formed in his mind . And this is that which the Apostle means when he sayes , That Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost . And so far as they were thus moved , so far they were infallible , and no further . But this Infallibility being not intended meerly for the satisfaction of the mind of him that hath it , but for the general good of the world , it is necessary that there be some way whereby men may come to understand who are infallibly assisted , and who not . For otherwise the world would be more exposed to delusions under this pretext of Infallibility ; than if there were never any such thing in the world . Either therefore every man must be infallibly assured in his mind , that such a person is infallible in what he is to deliver , which is a needless piece of Enthusiasm ; or else such external Evidences of it are to be used , which may induce all rational and considerative persons to the belief of it . Which is the way that God in his infinite Wisdom hath made choice of ; by making those very persons , whose understandings are thus assisted by him to be the Instruments of doing some things above the power of nature . And nothing can be more reasonable , than to believe their Testimony True , who are imployed as such immediate Instruments of Divine Power ; and if their Testimony be believed True , their Doctrine must be Infallible ; for the greatest part of their Testimony is this , That they deliver not their Doctrines from themselves , but immediately from God. And consequently their Testimony must be owned as infallible , in whatever they deliver as from God ; it being very unreasonable to think , that God would favour such persons with so extraordinary a Power , who should falsifie their message , and deceive the world . Thus you see , That whatever Motives of Credibility you would blind the world with , there can be no Motive independent on Scripture , which is sufficient to prove Infallibility , but such a power of working Miracles , which Moses , and the Prophets , and Christ , and his Apostles had , which last , as you truly say , received their Commission from Christ to preach every where , and to confirm their words with signs that followed ; by which signs , all their hearers were bound to submit themselves unto them , and to acknowledge their words for infallible Oracles of Truth . Now , What reasonable man could otherwise expect , but that after you had so solemnly promised to prove the Infallibility of your Church , in the very same manner that Moses , with other Prophets , Christ and his Apostles were first proved to be infallible , which are twice your words ; and your at large shewing , That the main ground why they were believed infallible , was , because of the Miracles wrought by them , whence they needed not the Testimony of Scripture : You should have shewed us what kind of parallel Miracles are wrought in your Church , to prove its infallibility . But , instead of that , when you come to the purpose , you shuffle us off , in a most ridiculous and impertinent manner : For , you tell us , That as therefore Moses , our blessed Saviour , and his Apostles , were proved infallible by their works , signs , and miracles , without Scripture ; so is the Church without help of the same sufficiently proved to be infallible by the Motives of Credibility . Well , but what , and where are these Motives of Credibility ? Are they of the same kind and nature with the signs and miracles wrought by them or not ? If not , How can the way and manner be the same , which you promised to prove the Churches Infallibility ? If not , What assurance can you give us , that those will prove Infallibility , as well as their works and miracles ? This should have been demonstrated , and those motives produced to the view of the world , if you had designed any other than jugling with your Readers . Instead of this , you tell us , That Hereticks , though they have the Scripture , yet being out of the true Church , they do wholly want these signs of Infallibility : of which , see Bellarmine , and other Catholick Authors discoursing more at large , de notis Ecclesiae . 'T is sufficient for the present , to have declared how Catholicks fall not into a Circle , as his Lordship pretends they do . These are excellent waies of proof , and fit only for a Church that pretends to be infallible , and then most of all , when her Infallibility was to be proved . What did you lead us this long dance for , if you never intended to prove your Church infallible ? Could you not have referred us to Bellarmine at first , as well as at last ? Nay , and now you do turn us off to him , you bid us , go seek the Notes of the Church , and not the Proofs of Infallibility ; which , sure , are different things , unless you suppose no Church True , but what is Infallible . But however , you are sure not to miss the Hereticks , they must have a blow at parting , They are out of the Church , and do wholly want these signs of Infallibility . What signs of Infallibility ? speak out , and tell us , What they are , and where they lye , and how they may be known ? for otherwise we may mistake in the Physiognomy of your Church , and instead of signs of Infallibility , we may see shrewd signs of imposture and delusion in her . And it is the more suspicious , because you are so afraid of producing them after so solemn a promise to do it . However , you tell us , 'T is sufficient for the present to have declared how Catholicks fall not into a Circle : Well , I see , though we miss of of the Coals S. Laurence was broyled on , we shall have a Feather from the wing of a Seraphim ; Though you fail of your promise , we shall have something as good ; and as great a feat of activity as that had been , viz. to let us see , How the Papists dance in a round , and yet make no Circle . Your demonstrations are so good in this kind , it is pity you do not imploy your excellent wit in squaring Mathematical Circles , as well as this ; and I shall as soon hope to see you perform the one , as the other . But , Can you , without smiling at our simplicity , tell us , ( after such a wide-mouthed promise ; as you made in the page foregoing ; But , because we have often promised to prove the Infallibility of the Church , it will be necessary to insist somewhat longer upon this Point , and declare the matter at large ) That it is enough to vindicate your selves from the Circle ? Was this the thing you promised , or the proofs of your Churches Infallibility ? I confess Quid feret hic tanto dignum promissor hiatu ? came into my mind at first reading those words , and it proves accordingly . You really meant no such thing , as proving your Church infallible : and you are very excusable in it , though you had promised it ; for no Promise can bind to impossibilities . But it may be yet , though these Proofs do not come after the Promise , they may have gone before it ; For I find before a large Catalogue mentioned of such signs and motives , which may prove the Churches Infallibility , as sanctity of life , miracles , efficacy , purity and excellency of doctrine , fulfilling of Prophecies , succession of lawfully sent Pastors , Vnity , Antiquity , and the very name of Catholick , &c. Number enough , if that would do it . But we shall see , what force these Motives are of , by these following Queries . 1. Is it all one with you , To know a Church to be true , and to make it infallible ? These you call the Motives of Credibility for your Churches Infallibility , were wont to be esteemed only the Notes of Distinction of the True Church from all others . The Question , I suppose , concerning these , had this rise . There being , after the Reformation , several distinct Societies of men , pretending to be the True Christian Church , to which every Christian ought to associate himself ; there was a necessity of pitching on some way , whereby the True Christian Church might be distinguished from other Communions ; which begat a new Controversie , What were the proper Notes of this Society . Those of your party , as Bellarmine tells you , differed much in the number of them : Some of which are those by you mentioned ; but whether they be the True Notes of the Church or no , which hath been largely examined by others , What are these to the proof of Infallibility , setting aside that of Miracles ? Is it not possible that there should be a Society of Men joyning together in the Profession of Christian Religion , but these Men must presently be infallible in whatever they deliver as the Sense of their Society ? Their visible Profession of Christian Religion , makes them a True Church : but cannot men seem to profess our Religion , unless they have a visible Infallible Head to guide them ? Is Infallibility the Soul of a Church , which gives it its Being , I mean , a present Infallibility continually actuating and informing the Body of it ? Cannot a man be known to be a True Man , unless he be inspired ? Nor a Church distinguished from other Societies , but by a Spirit of Infallibility ? The truth is , Let Bellarmine multiply his fifteen Notes of the Church to fifteen hundred , if he please ; nay , let it pretend to what Infallibility it please : if any Society of men challenging the name of Church to it self , do destroy the end of its Constitution , or hold any thing directly contrary to the Foundation of its Institution ; all other Notes in the world can never make it a True Church . So that the only certain Note of a True Church , is its Agreement with the primary Foundation of it in that Doctrine which was Infallible , and attested by Miracles undoubtedly Divine : That which holds the Doctrine of Christ , is the Christian Church ; and the nearer any Society comes to that , the purer it is ; the more it is distant from it , the more impure : and no man who honours the Christian Religion , can be bound to communicate with the Impurities of such a Church , let it bear it never so high under the pretence of Infallibility . If you boast never so much of your Vnity , Succession , Antiquity , the name of Catholick , &c. if your Doctrine be repugnant to what was originally delivered by the Founder of the Christian Church ; your Society is not the True Christian Church . But , suppose it were , and that it were known so to be by such Notes as these are ; Can you not conceive a Church should be consonant to the Doctrine of Christ , but it must be it self infallible in deciding Controversies ? Cannot you imagine a Society consisting of all True Christians in the world , should be made up of such persons who all firmly believe that Doctrine infallible which Christ delivered , but yet judge themselves all fallible , and dare not usurp that royal prerogative of Heaven , in prescribing infallibly in matters questioned , but leave all to judge according to the Pandects of the Divine Laws , because each member of this Society is bound to take care of his soul , and of all things that tend thereto ? Is such an Idea of a Christian Church , a thing unreasonable , inconsistent , or contrary to any Law of its Foundation ; or rather , is it not a very true and just representation of that Society of men , which our blessed Saviour instituted as a Church in the world ? 2. Do you mean , That these Motives should prove the Christian Church at large infallible , or your present particular universal Church of Rome ? For some of your Motives seem to respect the one , and the rest the other Notion of it . When you mention miracles , efficacy , purity and excellency of Doctrine , fulfilling of Prophecies , do you really intend these for the proof of your present Roman-Churches Infallibility , as that is distinct from all other Churches of Christians in the world ? If you do ( as you must , if you speak to the purpose ) shew us what miracles , efficacy , purity and excellency of Doctrine there are in your Church beyond and beside all other Churches in the world : What fulfilling of Prophecies among you , which makes your Church infallible ? Is it the Prophecy , That your Church shall be infallible that is fulfilled ? Shew then to us where that Prophecy is , and how it appears to be fulfilled ? Is it because your Church pretends to be infallible ? I do heartily acknowledge , some Prophecies are therein fulfilled , but such as your Church hath little ground to be proud of their accomplishment . But , to all impartial Christians , the accomplishment of those Prophecies , which speak of the degenerate state of the Church , as they are a great Confirmation of the Infallibility of the Divine Revealer of them , when they see it so remarkably in the signatures of your Church ; so they are far from being any motive of credibility to them to prove your Church to be Infallible . Unless it be meant that the state of your Church is an infallible evidence that those Prophesies are fulfilled . But I pray , why should fulfilling of Prophesies , make your Church Infallible ? I had rather thought , if you could have proved your Church to have been Prophetical , it had been more to your purpose . And if your Popes in Cathedrâ had foretold future events , which by their coming to pass , had evidenced to the world they had a true spirit of Prophesie , then indeed you had said something towards Infallibility . But that the meer fulfilling of Prophesies , owned Divine by all Christians , should prove your Church Infallible , is such a motive of Credibility concerning that Infallibility , that it proves nothing , but by this consequence , If Christ were Infallible , then your Church is . Or do you mean , because some Prophesies concerning your Church are fulfilled , therefore your Church is Infallible ; by the same reason I hope you will not deny , but that Antichrist is Infallible , for when ever he did , doth , or shall appear , no doubt there will be fulfilling of Prophesies , and those very clear ones too . And therefore Antichrist and your Pope may go together for Infallibility . But it may be yet you have some other motives besides fulfilling Prophesies , and those are miracles ; now you speak indeed to the purpose . But yet still we poor Infidels ( because out of your Church ) desire a little satisfaction concerning them too . 1. We very reasonably desire , That he in your Church who pretends most to infallibility , should do these miracles himself . For that was alwayes the way in Scripture , for them whose testimony was to be believed Infallible , to be the workers of those miracles which should induce men to believe such an Infallibility . Do you think the Israelites would have believed Moses Infallible , if any ordinary Israelite had wrought those miracles which he did ? unless you would suppose that those miracles were purposely wrought to have attested that Moses was Infallible . But yet God thought it much more fit , that Moses himself should be the instrument of doing them , and so it was with our Blessed Saviour . Let then your Church produce the several miracles wrought by your Popes to attest their Infallibility ; or , if you believe Pope and Council the subject of Infallibility , produce the miracles to prove that . God was alwayes so just and reasonable , as not to expect the belief of any Infallibility without such evidences given for it as might perswade men to believe it : and you acknowledge , That independently on Scripture there can be no such proof of Infallibility as Miracles , and you require it from us to believe the present Church Infallible , where then are your present miracles wrought to attest this Infallibility ? For as long as you require such an assent to the present Churches Infallibility , it is necessary on your own grounds , that the present Church should alwayes work miracles in order to the proving this Infallibility . 2. We desire such miracles as may sufficiently convince the Infidels as to this point of your Infallibility . For that was alwayes the way used in Scripture ; The intention of miracles was to perswade those who did not believe . Would Pharaoh , or the Aegyptians have believed Moses , if all his miracles had been wrought in a corner , where none but Israelites had been present ? Would the Jews have believed in Christ , if he had not come in publick among them , and wrought such frequent , publick , and uncontrouled miracles , that his greatest enemies durst not deny them ? If you would then have us believe your present Churches Infallibility , let your Pope , or at least your Priests come and do such kind of miracles among us which may bear the examination of inquisitive men , and then try whether we will not believe your Infallibility ; but till then , excuse us . Think not we are of such easie Faith , that the pretended growing out of a Leg in Spain , or any of your famous miracles wrought by your Priests in Italy , will perswade us to believe your Church Infallible . It is alwayes observed , your miracles are most talked on , where people are most ignorant , and therefore most apt to be deceived . Your Priests , like the Devils in the Primitive times , can do no feats when their opposers are by ; It is an easie thing for a stump to grow a Leg in its passage from Spain hither ; for Fama crescit eundo ; such things are most believed where circumstances are least capable of examination . And the juglings and impostures of your Priests have been so notorious in this kind , that their pretences to miracles have made more Infidels then Catholicks , by making men more apt to question , whether ever there were any real miracles done , then believe the truth of yours . Very likely then it is , that you should perswade the world your Church is Infallible , because of the miracles wrought in it . 3. What discrimination do you put between those lying wonders which you are foretold shall be wrought at the coming of Antichrist , and those pretended miracles which are wrought among you ? Convince us by sufficient evidence , that the things which seem most confirmed by your miracles , viz. Invocation of Saints , is a thing consonant to the doctrine established by the undoubted miracles of Christ and his Apostles ? If it be contrary to it , either you must prove that doctrine false ; or , if you admit it true , you prove your miracles to be false : because contrary to a doctrine established by miracles undoubtedly Divine . And God can never be supposed to attest with miracles the truth of doctrines contrary to each other . And thence the wisest of your Church are so far from insisting on this of miracles for a motive of credibility concerning your Churches Infallibility , that they leave it out from being a note of the Church ; because Hereticks , as they say , may as to all outward appearance work as great miracles as the best Catholicks . And therefore Bellarmin saith , No man can have an absolute certainty concerning the truth of miracles , because the Devil , though he cannot work true miracles , can work , as to appearance , the greatest . Therefore since the confirmation of Christian Religion by miracles undoubtedly Divine , there can be no relyance on the tryal of miracles for the truth of any doctrine : for those very miracles and doctrine must be judged according to that rule of Faith which was confirmed by Divine miracles . Thus we have examined those motives which seem most to prove Infallibility , and shewn how little they agree to the present Churches Infallibility . 3. As to the other motives , what evidence do you produce , That where-ever they are , the Church is Infallible ; and , that these do infallibly belong to your Church ? for both these must be made evident , or you do nothing . Now these motives are , Sanctity of life , Succession , Vnity , Antiquity , and the very name of Catholick , &c. How hard is it to conceive the connexion between these and infallibility ! Nay , they are so far from it , that it hath been abundantly proved against your party , that these are no certain notes of the true Church , ( which is a Controversie I shall not now discuss ) . And if the Church cannot be proved to be true by them , much less certainly will it be proved to be Infallible . But suppose all this , is your Church so remarkable for Sanctity of life , that it should be a motive for your Infallibility ? Have your Popes been indeed such Holy men , that we may not question but they were moved by the Holy Ghost when they spake ? Certainly , you have some other way to know it then all Histories both of friends and enemies , and the constant fame of the world , which hath then much abused us with stories quite of another nature . Or , is the state of your Church so pure and holy , that it must shew it self Infallible by that ? But whom will you be judged by in this case ? I desire you not to stand to the verdict of your Adversaries . Will you believe men of your own Communion ? pray read what sad complaints are made of the degenerate state of your Church by Petrarch , Mantuan , Clemangis , Espencaeus , Erasmus , Cassander , and several others , and judge you whether we have not reason to cry up the Sanctity of your Church . But these , ( it may be you will say ) were discontented persons . Will you believe then your Cardinals ? And if ever you will believe them , it should certainly be , when they meet to advise concerning the state of your Church ; and was not this the expression of the Colledge of chosen Cardinals for reformation of the Church , under Paul 3. Per nos , inquimus , per nos , nomen Christi blasphematur apud gentes . Is not this a great evidence of your Sanctity ? If you will not believe the Cardinals , you will not certainly question the judgement of him whom you would fain have to be Infallible , the Pope himself . And these are the words of Adrian 6. in his Instructions to his Legat at the diet of Norimberg A. D. 1522. Scimus in hâc Sede aliquot jam annis multa abominanda fuisse , abusus in Spiritualibus , excessus in mandatis , & omnia denique in perversum mutata . If ever Pope was Infallible he was in saying so , and he could not but be in Cathedrâ when he said it . You see then what evidence you have from your selves concerning that Sanctity of life which is in your Church . But it may be still , you do not mean real Sanctity , but that the doctrine of your Church tends more to promote it , then that of any other Church . I heartily wish , the quite contrary could not be too truly said of it , and it is well known , that one of your great Artifices whereby you perswade great Persons to your Religion , is , the liberty it indulgeth them in sin here , and yet the hopes it gives them of heaven hereafter . Our doctrine requires indispensable obedience to all the precepts of Christ : Yours tells them , those which are the most strict and severe , are not precepts , but counsels of perfection . Ours , That there is no hope of Salvation without hearty amendment of life : Yours , That Pennance is requisite and external satisfaction to the Church ; and for internals , that Contrition is very commendable , but if there be not that , Attrition will serve the turn . Ours , Charges men to look to their Salvation in this life , because when life is ended their estate is irrecoverable : Yours , That though men dye in their sins , yet they may be relieved by the prayers of the living , and that there is hope they may get through Purgatory to Heaven at last . So that supposing any persons to own Christianity to be true , it is hard to conceive there should be more Artifices imagined to reconcile the Love of the pleasures of sin here with the hopes of Heaven at last , than are used by those of your Profession . So that if I should suppose my self a Heathen Philosopher , and any of your Profession should come and tell me , These were the Precepts , and these the Promises of Christian Religion , but I could believe none of them , but by the Infallible proposition of your Church , and that I was to know your Church Infallible by that Sanctity of life which was in it ; when I had throughly considered not only the impieties committed by the great ones of your Religion , even in Rome in the first place , but the Artifices used to enervate all the Precepts of real Sanctity , and so plainly to see what interest and design is carried on under all these disguises : I should be insuperably assaulted with the thoughts that those of your Religion who were the Authours of these things , were so far from believing your Church Infallible , that they really believed neither Christian nor any other Religion in the world . So much for that Sanctity of life which is in your Chuch . As for your other motives of Vnity , Succession , Antiquity , and the name of Catholick , &c. they have so little affinity with any pretence of Infallibility , and do equally agree to those Churches , as the Greek and Abyssine , which you are so far from acknowledging Infallible , that you will not grant them to be true Churches ( notwithstanding these Motives ) that I cannot easily imagine to what end you produced them , unless to let us see , you had the gift of saying something , though nothing to the purpose . When you have thus apparently failed in producing any shadow of proof for your Churches Infallibility by these motives of credibility , we now come to see how good you are at the defensive part , who have been so unhappy in your Attempts . Therefore we must consider what arts you use in putting by the force of those arguments which are produced against you by his Lordship . After he had urged that question against you , How it may appear that your Church is infallibly governed by the Holy Ghost , to which we have seen how impossible it is for you to give any satisfactory answer , he proceeds to another Argument which lies in these words ; Besides , this is an inviolable ground of reason , That the principles of any conclusion must be of more credit then the conclusion it self . Therefore if the Articles of Faith , the Trinity , the Resurrection , and the rest , be the conclusions , and the Principles by which they are proved be only Ecclesiastical Tradition ; it must needs follow , that the tradition of the Church is more infallible then the Articles of Faith , if the Faith which we have of the Articles should be finally resolved into the veracity of the Churches Testimony . To this your Answer is very considerable . 1. You tell us , That the ground of all this discourse is the authority of Aristotle cited in the Margent , which you repeat after him . But I pray , Whence learn'd you that this was all the ground of his discourse ? For his Lordship doth not say , that Aristotle saith so , and therefore it is so ; but saies , That it is an inviolable ground of reason , ( which words you prudently left out , that there might appear some shadow for such a cavil ) and cites only the concurrent testimony of Aristotle with that evidence of reason which is in it . And will you deny this to be an undoubted principle in reason , that , That which is assumed as the ground and reason why I assent to any thing , must be more certain and evident , then that is which I assent to on that ground ? Certainly you must have an art above all other men to make the superstructure stronger then the foundation ; the particular Problems in Mathematicks , more evident then the Postulata ; the conclusion , surer then the Premisses . But you think to come off this absurdity . 2. By distinguishing between Science and Faith , or , as you express it , between the proceeding of the understanding when it works naturally and necessarily , by and from the evidence and clearness of its object : and when it works supernaturally and produceth supernatural and free acts , meerly or at least principally from the impulse and inclination of the will ; for in such cases the Maxim holds not , viz. That the principles of a Conclusion must be of more credit then the conclusion it self . Now the act of believing is such an act ; that is , which the understanding elicites , rather by a voluntary and free inclination and consent of the will , then from any evident certainty in the object whereto it assents . A most judicious and profound discourse ! to which I know not whether ever I can perswade my will , but I am sure , I never shall my understanding . Lest you should think , it is only some impulse of my will which hinders my assent , I shall fairly lay down the Reasons which keep me from it . 1. That all assent of the understanding is grounded upon evidence . 2. That however that evidence proceeds , yet the Foundation of assent must be more evident then the thing assented to . And these two I suppose will fully reach the scope of your Answer , by shewing that your distinction of acts natural and supernatural , is both untrue and impertinent . 1. That all assent is grounded upon evidence , i. e. that no man can assent to any thing meerly because he will , but there must be sufficient reason inducing and perswading to that assent . You acknowledge this to be true in acts of Knowledge , but not of Faith ; but , What do you make to be the genus in your definition of Faith ? I suppose you will say , it is an assent of the mind . If it be so , the mind cannot be supposed to elicite an act of the same nature in so repugnant a manner to it self , that it should assent to any thing without evidence . I know what discourses those of your party have , concerning the obscurity which is necessary to Faith. If you mean obscurity as to the object believed , i. e. that the matters to be believed are not so clear to us as demonstrations , I will not gainsay it : but if you mean obscurity or want of evidence , as to the reason inducing me to believe , I utterly deny any such obscurity to belong to Faith , or to be consistent with it . For God doth not require us to believe any thing without sufficient grounds for our believing it , and those grounds do bear a proportionable evidence to the nature of that assent which he requires . If he requires an Infallible assent he gives Infallible grounds ; if he requires a firm and certain assent , he gives firm and certain grounds ; if he requires only a probable assent , he gives only probable evidence . But still , such as the nature of the assent is , such is the evidence he gives for it . To make this plainer by an Instance . That Christ was the true Messias , he requires an assent built upon Infallible grounds , and therefore God gave such Infallible evidence of it by the Miracles which he wrought . That these Miracles were once really done , he requires our firm assent , and therefore gives certain evidence by an Universal and uncontrouled tradition ; but whether St. Paul or any other Apostolical person were Authour of the Epistle to the Hebrews , he requires only an assent built on the most probable grounds , and therefore he hath given us no more for it . But still as the assent is , so the evidence must be . For Faith being an act of the mind , whose nature is to judge according to reason , we cannot suppose any act of it to proceed in a brutish manner by a meer impulse of the will. I deny not , but the will may be said to have some kind of influence upon the understanding , both in furthering and hindering assent : but it is not by any command it hath over the mind in its acts , but as it can divert the mind from , or incline it to , the searching into the evidence of the things . Therefore when we commonly say , Facile credimus quae volumus , and so on the contrary ; it is not because of the wills immediate power upon the understanding , but , as the desire of a thing makes us inquisitive after it , so the dislike of it makes us unwilling to hear the reasons for it , and ready to entertain any pretence against it . Thus , I grant , the will may have power upon the mind as to the eliciting the act of Faith , not that I can assent to a thing as true , because I desire it to be true ; but this inclination of the will removes those impediments which would obstruct my discovery of the evidence which is in it . You havs certainly a mind of another mould then others have that can believe thing which do not appear credible to you ; yet such a kind of Faith as this , is very necessary for your Churches Infallibility ; and for that , your discourse of believing by the impulse of the will , is very proper and seasonable . But other persons may think it an Imperfection in their minds , that they cannot believe any thing any further than it appears credible ; that is , that they can go no further than they have legs ; nor see when their eyes are shut , or the room dark . But , it may be , you will tell me , All this discourse proceeds on supposition , that Faith were a natural act of the mind ; but you speak of a supernatural Faith. It may be so ; but , I hope , you speak not of an irrational Faith , which must believe things beyond the evidence of their Credibility . Faith , whether natural or supernatural , acquired or infused , is still an act of the mind ; and let it have but what belongs to it as such , and call it what you will. I deny not a peculiar Operation of Grace , in the eliciting the Act of Divine Faith ; but still I say , The manner whereby it is wrought , must be agreeable to the nature of the Vnderstanding , and by discovering the Credibility which is in the Objects of Faith. If you say , The Assent is infused , I must say , The Evidence is first infused ; for as Christ , when he healed the blind , did not make them see Objects which did not appear visible ; so neither doth the Spirit of God in planting Faith make men discern Objects which do not appear credible ; and the stronger the Assent is , the greater is the Evidence and Credibility of the Object . And can you call then that any free inevident Assent , which goes no further than the Object appears credible ? It cannot be then any Act of the Will , but meerly of the Mind , which yields assent to any Object propounded as credible to it . So that in what way and manner Assent is required , in that same manner doth God give proportionable evidence : I deny not but that Assent is required to Objects inevident to sense and reason ; but then I say , The Assent is not required to what is obscure and inevident ; but to what is evident to us , and therefore credible . In the Incarnation of the Son of God , the manner of the Hypostatical Vnion is to us inevident , but then God doth not require our Assent to the Manner , but to the Truth of the thing it self . Where-ever God requires us to believe any thing as True , he gives us evidence that it is so : where-ever it appears the thing is inevident , we may lawfully suspend our Assent , and , for all that I know , it is our duty so to do . But yet you have not done with this profound discourse ; For you very learnedly distinguish a double proceeding in probations ; the one is , per principia intrinseca , which you very well English ( by intrinsecal Principles ) i. e. such as have a necessary , natural connexion with the things proved , and do manifest and lay open the objects themselves ; the other is , per principia extrinseca ( by extrinsecal Principles ) that is , such as have no natural or necessary connexion with , nor do produce any such evident manifestation of the things proved , but their efficacy , ( viz. whereby they determine the understanding to assent ) doth wholly depend on the worth and vertue of that external Principle , whereby such probations are made . This you apply to Knowledge and Faith , that as Knowledge proceeds in the former way , so Faith doth in the latter , which depends purely upon extrinsecal Principles , viz. the Authority , Veracity , Goodness , and Knowledge of God affirming it ; which was immediately known to the Prophets and Apostles , but mediately to us , which how●ver , must be infallibly conveyed to us , which can only be by the testimony of the Church . This is the substance of your third Section ; to which I answer , 1. That all Certainty in the acts of the Mind , whether in Knowledge or Faith , must equally suppose the Truth of some extrinsecal Principles , viz. the veracity and goodness of God : for otherwise we cannot certainly judge of those you call Principia intrinseca , to know what things have necessary and natural connexion with the things proved . For , unless I suppose that God is so True and Good , as not to suffer me to be deceived in the proper actings of my Faculties , I may judge such things to have connexions and dep●ndencies one upon another , which really have nothing so . And therefore , so far your distinction concerning Science and Faith , will not hold . But 2. If the meaning of this distinction be only this , That there is a different proceeding in a demonstration , from what there is in an act of Faith , I deny it not ; but suppose it nothing to your purpose . For , though the evidence be discovered in a different way , yet there is in both proportionable evidence to the nature of the Assent . When I assent , because I know that the thing is true , the evidence of the thing it self , is the ground of that Assent ; but , when I assent upon the Authority of any person , the Credibility of his Testimony , is the evidence on which that Assent is grounded . Though this latter evidence be of another kind , yet it is sufficient for that act of the mind , which is built upon it ; and that Testimony which I establish a firm Assent upon , must be as evident in its kind , i. e. of Credibility , as the evidence of a thing demonstrable in the nature of a Demonstration . 3. The main strength of your Answer seems to lye in this , That in such an Assent as is built upon Authority ; as in the case of Faith , when we do not immediately hear God speaking , but it is conveyed to us by the Testimony of others , it is necessary that this Testimony be infallible . But , good Sir , this is not our present Question , Whether it be necessary that this Testimony be infallibly conveyed to us , but , supposing such an infallible Conveyance , Whether that infallible Testimony must not be more credible than the matters which are believed upon it ? But , as though never any such thing had been started : You give us a long discourse of the different proceeding of Science and Faith , but never offer to apply it to the business in hand . I must therefore ingenuously commend you for an excellent Art of gliding insensibly away from a business you cannot answer , and casting out a great many words not to the purpose , that you may seem to touch the matter , when you are far enough from it . And therefore I say , Secondly , That however the evidence proceeds in matters of Faith , yet whatever is the Foundation of Assent , must be more evident than the thing assented to . Especially where you suppose the Assent to be infallible , and the Testimony infallible , which must ascertain it to us . This will be plainer by an instance . If I ask you , Why you believe the Resurrection of the dead , your Answer is , because of the Authority of him that reveals it : The next Question then is , Why you believe that God hath revealed it ; your Answer is , Because the Testimony of the Church is infallible which delivers it . Whereby it is plain , That though your first Answer be from God's Authority , yet the last resolution of your Faith , is , the Infallibility of your Churches Testimony ; and that being the last resolution , that Infallibility must be the Principle on which the belief of the rest depends . For , according to your Principles , though God had revealed it , yet if this Revelation were not attested by the infallible Testimony of your Church , we should not have sufficient ground to believe it . And if without that , we can have no sufficient ground to believe , then this Principle The Church is infallible , must be more credible than the Resurrection of the dead . Which was the Absurdity his Lordship charged upon you , and you are far from being able to quit your self of . The next thing which you busie your self much in answering of , is , That according to these Principles of resolution of Faith , you make the Churches Testimony the formal Object of Faith , which you acknowledge your self to be a great Absurdity , and therefore make use of many shifts to avoid . I shall reduce the substance of your verbose , and immethodical Answer into as narrow a compass as I can , without defalking any thing of the strength of it . You tell us then , That our Faith is resolved into God's Revelations , whether written , or unwritten , as its Formal Object ; and our Infallible Assurance , that the things we believe as God's Revelations are revealed from him , is resolved into the Infallibility of the Churches Definitions , teaching us , that they are his Revelations ; And that the Formal Cause of our Assent in Divine Faith , is God's Revelation delivered to the Church without writing ; but , because that is as it were at distance from us , it is approximated , or immediately applied to us by the infallible Declaration of the present Church . Hence it appears , our Faith rests only upon God's Revelation as its Formal Object , though the Churches Voice be a condition so necessary for its resting thereon , that it can never attain that Formal Object without it . And lastly , you tell us , The Churches Authority then being more known to us than the Scriptures , may well be some reason of our admitting them , yet the Scriptures still retain their prerogative above the Church : and thence you distinguish of the certainty of the Object and Subject ; from all which you conclude , That the Churches Definition is not the Formal Object of Faith , but that our Faith relyes upon it as an Infallible Witness both of the written and unwritten Word of God , which is the Formal Object . This is the substance , in your long Answer , of what hath the face of reason and pertinency : Which I come to a close and particular examination of . And that you may not say , I pass over this important Controversie , without a through discussion of it ; I shall first prove , that it necessarily follows from your Principles , That the Churches Infallible Testimony must be the Formal Object of Faith. And 2. That the Answers you give are far from being satisfactory that it is not . 1. That it necessarily follows from your Principles , That the Churches Infallible Testimony must be the Formal Object of Faith. In order to which , we must consider , what the scope and design of this Discourse is , concerning the Resolution of Faith. The Question started by Mr. Fisher , in the Conference , was , How his Lordship knew Scripture to be Scripture , or , How the Divine Authority of the Scriptures was to be proved . To this his Lordship returns a large Answer , to which you attempt a Reply in this Chapter , and mention this to be the main Question , How Scriptures may be known to be the Word of God. To this , you tell us , No satisfactory Answer can be given , but from the infallible Testimony of the Church , and the great reason given by you in all your discourse , is this , That this is an Article to be believed with Divine Faith , and Divine Faith must be built on an Infallible Testimony . The Question then resulting hence , is , Whether on these Principles you do not make the Infallible Testimony of the Church , the Formal Object of Faith ? You deny , and we affirm it ; but before I come to the particular Evidences of the Cause , some generall postulata must be laid down , which by the very state of the Controversie , must be acknowledged by you , which are ; 1. That the Question in dispute is not concerning the Formal Object of all things divinely revealed , but concerning the believing this to be a particular Divine Revelation . For , it is obvious to any one that considers , what vast difference there is between those two Questions , Why you believe that to be True which God hath revealed ; the plain and easie resolution of this , is , into the veracity and infallibility of God , in all his Revelations . But it is quite another Question , when I ask , Why you believe this to have been a True Divine Revelation ? Or that such particular Books contain the Word of God. And it is apparent , by the whole process of the the Dispute , that the Question is not concerning the first , but the second of these two . 2. That the Question is not concerning any kind of perswasion , as to this Divine Revelation , but concerning that which you call Divine Faith. 3. That this Divine Faith must be resolved into some Testimony supposed infallible . These three are things agreed on between both parties , as appears by the whole management of this Controversie . Only you suppose this Infallible Testimony to be the Church , which your Adversary denies , and saith , It will follow from thence , that you make your Churches Testimony the Formal Object of Faith , which I thus prove : 1. That which is the only Ground and Foundation whereon a Divine Faith is built , must be the Formal Object of Faith : but the Infallible Testimony of your Church , is the only Foundation whereon Faith is built . By the Formal Object of Faith , I suppose you and I mean the same thing , which is the Foundation whereon the Certainty of the Assent is grounded , or the principal Objective Cause of Faith , viz. not every account that may be given Why men believe , but that which is the only Certain Foundation to establish a Divine Faith upon . Now , let any one but consider what the Question is , and what your resolution is , and then judge , Whether you make not the Churches Testimony the Formal Object . The Question is , How we know the Scriptures to be the Word of God ; which in other terms is , What the ground is why I assent to the Doctrine contained in Scripture as a Divine Revelation ? You say , The Testimony of the Scripture it self cannot be that ground ; You say , The Testimony of the Spirit cannot be it ; You say , A Moral Certainty cannot be it , because then it is not Divine Faith : What then is the reason why you believe it ? Do you not over and over say , It is because of the infallible Testimony of the Church , which gives us unquestionable assurance that this was a Divine Revelation ; and yet for all this , this Testimony is not the Formal Object of this Divine Faith. The most charitable apprehension I can have of you , when you write things so inconsistent , is , either that you understand not , or consider not what you write of , but take what hath been said in such cases by men of your own party , and right or wrong that serves for an Answer . But for all this , you tell us confidently , That your Faith is not resolved into the voice of the Church , as into its Formal Object ; but it is enough to say , Our Faith is resolved into God's Revelations ( whether written or unwritten ) as its Formal Object : and our infallible assurance , that the things we believe are Divine Revelations , is resolved into the Infallibility of the Churches Definitions . These are excellent Notions if they would hang together . But , 1. We enquire not what is enough to say in such a case , but what ground you have for saying what you do . You have enough to say upon many subjects in this Book ( or else your Book would never have swell'd to the bulk it hath ) but you have generally very little reason for what you say . 2. Is that infallible Assurance , that the things we believe as God's Revelations , are revealed from him , a thing call'd Faith or no ? If it be , as I hope you will not deny it , then by your own Confession , Faith is resolved into the Churches Testimony as its Formal Object ; for , you say , This Infallible Assurance is resolved into the Infallibility of the Churches Definitions , teaching us , that they are his Revelations . These are your own words . And , do you yet deny this Testimony of the Church to be the Formal Object of this infallible Assurance ? 3. What is it you mean , when you say , That Faith is resolved into God's Revelations as its Formal Object ? Is it , that the reason why we believe , is , Because God hath revealed these things to us ? But that , you know , is not the matter at all in question , but , How we come to assent to such a Doctrine as a Divine Revelation ? Answer me punctually to it ; Can you possibly resolve your Faith into any thing else , as its Formal Object ? If you can , I pray do us the favour to name it . If you resolve this Faith , as you seem to express your mind , into Divine Revelation , as its Formal Object ; Shew us where that Revelation is extant , for which you believe Scripture to be the Word of God. Is it the Scripture it self , or a Revelation distinct from it ? If you say , It is the Scripture it self , then you must make the infallible Testimony of your Church needless ; for then we may have infallible Assurance , that the things we believe are Divine Revelations , without your Churches Testimony or Definitions : Then , what is become of the unwritten Tradition you mention in these words , If then it be demanded , Why we believe such Books as are contained in the Bible to be the Word of God ; we answer , Because it is a divine unwritten Tradition , that they are his Word ; and this Divine Tradition is the Formal Object , whereon our Faith relyes . Well then , our last resolution of Faith is into this Divine unwritten Tradition : But , whence come you to know , that this Tradition is Divine ? Into what Revelation is the belief of that finally resolved ? Doth it appear to be so by it self , and then why may not the Scripture ? or hath it some other Revelation , and Divine Tradition to attest it ? And then the same Question returns concerning that , and so in infinitum , or else of necessity you must acknowledge one of these two things ; Either that some Divine Revelation may sufficiently manifest it self , without any infallible Testimony of your Church : Or else , that this infallible Testimony must be the Formal Object of Faith. Of these two , chuse which you please . 2. I prove that you must make the Churches Testimony the Formal Object of Faith , because either you must make it so , or you must deny Divine Revelation to be the Formal Object of Faith ; because the reason is equal for both . I demand then , How you resolve your Belief of the Truth of the Doctrine of Christ , you tell me , into Divine Revelation , as its Formal Object ? I ask yet further , Why you believe the Revelation made by Christ to be Divine . Your Answer must be , either that your Churches Testimony gives you infallible Assurance of it , and then the former Argument returns : or else that Christ manifested his Testimony to be infallible , and therefore his Revelation Divine , because of the Motives of Credibility , which accompanied his preaching . If this be your Answer , as it must be by your former discourse , then by the same reason I prove your Churches Testimony to be the Formal Object of Faith , because you have endeavoured to prove the Churches Infallibility by the same Motives of Credibility that Moses and Christ proved theirs . Either therefore retract all your former discourse , or else confess , that by the same reason that the Divine Revelation made by Christ , is the Formal Object of Faith , the infallible Testimony of your Church must be so too . For according to your own supposition , there are equal Motives of Credibility , and therefore equal obligation to believe the Infallibility of one as of the other . 3. If the only reason which makes any thing be the Formal Object agrees to the Testimony of your Church , then that Testimony must be the Formal Object of Faith to them that believe it . Now , that which is the only reason which makes any thing to be the Formal Object of Faith , is the Supposition that it is infallible . For , why do you resolve your Faith finally into Divine Revelation ? Is it not because you suppose God to be infallible in all Revelations of himself ; and therefore if your Church be infallible , as you say it is , by the same reason that must be the Formal Object of Faith ; as if it were by the revelation of God himself ? But here you think to obviate this objection by some strange distinctions concerning your Infallibility . You tell us therefore , The Churches Infallibility is not absolutely and simply Divine ; or that God speaks immediately by her Definitions : but only that she is supernaturally infallible , by the assistance of the Holy Ghost preserving her from all errour , in defining any thing as a point of Christian Faith , that is , as a Truth revealed from God , which is not truly and really so revealed . A rare Distinction this ! You say afterwards , The Churches Definition is absolutely infallible , but yet this Infallibility is not absolutely and simply Divine : I pray tell us , What is it then ? You say , It is Supernatural , but not Divine , and this Supernatural Infallibility , by the Assistance of the Holy Ghost securing from all errour , but yet not absolutely and precisely Divine : I pray tell us , What kind of Infallibility that was which the Apostles had in delivering the Doctrine of Christ , was that any more than such a Supernatural Infallibility as you fondly arrogate to your Church , viz. such a one as might secure them from all errour in defining any thing as a point of Christian Faith , which was not so , that is , as a Truth revealed from God , which was not truly and really so revealed . And yet , I suppose , you will not deny , but those who lived in the Apostles times , might resolve their Faith into that Infallibility which they had as its Formal Object , and therefore why not as well into your Churches Infallibility , since you pretend to as great Infallibility in your Church as ever was in the Apostles . Thus , I hope , I have shewn it impossible for you , not to make the Churches Testimony the Formal Object of Faith , since you make it infallible as you do . 2. We come now to consider , the little evasions and distinctions , whereby you hope to get out of this Labyrinth . But , having so manifestly proved , that it follows from your Principles , That the Churches Testimony is the Formal Object of Faith , all your distinctions fall of themselves ; for thereby it appears , that your Churches Testimony is not meerly a necessary Condition of believing , but is the Formal Cause and Reason of it , therefore your instance of approximation in natural Causes , is nothing to the purpose . No more is that of a Commonwealth's practising the same Laws , being an Argument that those were its primitive Laws : Unless you suppose it impossible , 1. That a Common-wealth should ever alter its Laws . Or , 2. That it should practise contrary to its primitive Laws . Or 3. That it should be supernaturally Infallible in judging which are primitive Laws , and which not ; without these Suppositions , I say , That Instance signifies nothing to the business in hand ; and when you have proved these true , I will give you a further Answer . Your Answer to Aristotles Text , or rather to that undoubted Maxim of Reason , with which the citation of Aristotle concurred , hath been considered already . Your Answer to the Testimony of Canus , is like the rest of your discourse , trivial , and not to the purpose ; for Canus doth not only deny the Churches Testimony to be the Formal Object of Faith , but the necessity of believing its Testimony to be infallible . Non intelligitur necessariò , quod credo docenti Ecclesiae tanquam testi infallibili , are the very words of the Testimony cited in the Margin of his Lordships Books . Your next Section affords us some more words , but not one drachm more of reason . For , How do you prove , that the Churches Authority is more known to us than the Scriptures ? or , How can you make it appear , that there is any Authority , but what is relative to us , and therefore the distinction is in it self silly , of Authority in se , & quoad nos . For , whatever hath Authority , hath thereby a respect to some it hath its Authority over . And , Can any thing be a ground of Faith simply and in it self , which is not so towards us : For the Formal Object of Faith , is that for whose sake we believe , and therefore , if Divine Revelation be , as you say , the Formal Object of Faith , then it must be more known to us , than the Testimony of the Church : For , that must be more known to us , which is the main cause of Believing . But , if all your meaning be , that we must first know what the Church delivers for Scripture , before we can judge whether it were divinely revealed or no : I grant it to be true ; but what is this to your Infallibility ? Will you prove the Infallibility of your Church to be more known to us , than that of the Scriptures ; and , on supposition that were true , can you then prove that the Scriptures should still retain their prerogative above the Church ? What your Authors distinguish concerning objective and subjective Certainty , pertains not to this place ; for the worth and dignity of the Scriptures , may exceed that of Tradition , yet , when the knowledge of that worth , relyes on that Tradition , your esteem of the one , must be according to your esteem of the other . I will not here enquire , Whether the adhesion of the Will , can exceed the clearness of the Vnderstanding ; nor , Whether Aristotle was unacquainted with subjective Certainty ; nor Whether our adhesion to Articles of Faith , be stronger than to any Principles evident to natural Reason : For , I look upon all these Assertions to serve you in no other capacity , than as excursions from the matter in hand ; and therefore I shall not gratifie you so far as particularly to examine them . For all then that hath been yet produced by you , his Lordships Argument remains good , that , according to your Principles , the Churches Testimony must be made the Formal Object of Faith , and I am the more confirmed in it by the weakness of your evasions ; and , I hope , I have now made good those words which you challenge his Lordship for , That it were no hard thing to prove it . The next Absurdity charged upon you by his Lordship , is , That all the Authorities of Fathers , Councils , nay of Scripture too , must be finally resolved into the Authority of the present Roman Church : And , though they would seem to have us believe the Fathers , and the Church of old ; yet they will not have us take their Doctrine from their own writings , or the Decrees of Councils , because , as they say , We cannot know by reading them , what their meaning was , but from the infallible Testimony of the present Roman Church teaching by Tradition . And this , he tells you , is , the cunning of this devise . To which you answer ; By what hath been said , it appears , That there is no device or cunning at all , either in taking away any thing due to the Fathers , Councils , or Scripture ; or in giving too much to the Tradition of the present Church . For we acknowledge all due respect to the Fathers , and as much ( to speak modestly ) as any of our adversaries party . But , they must pardon us , if we prefer the general interpretation of the present Church , before the result of any mans particular Phansie . As for Scripture , we ever extol it above the Definitions of the Church , yet affirm it to be in many places so obscure , that we cannot be certain of its true sense , without the help of a living , infallible Judge , to determine and declare it , which can be no other than the present Church . And what we say of Scripture , may , with proportion , be applied to Ancient General Councils . For , though we willingly submit to them all , yet where they happen to be obscure in matters requiring Determination , we seek the assistance and direction of the same living Infallible Rule , viz. the Tradition , or the Sentence of the present Church . The Question is , Supposing your Churches Testimony to be infallible , without which we can have no Assurance of what Fathers , Scriptures , and Councils say , What Authority remains among you , to any , or all of these ? And it is not , what respect , you tell us , you give them ; ( for you may as easily speak , as believe contradictions ) but what is really left to them , if your Opinion concerning the present Churches Infallibility be true . And he that cannot see the cunning of this Device of resolving all into the Authority of the present Roman Church , will never understand the interest of your Church ; but , it seems , you apprehend it so much , as not to seem to do it , and have too much cunning to confess it . But , this must not be so easily passed over , this being one of the grand Artifices of your Church , to make a great noise with Fathers , Scriptures , and Councils among those most , who understand them least , when your selves resolve them all into the present Churches Testimony . Which is first to gagge them , and then bid them speak . First , For the Fathers , you say , You acknowledge all due respect to them ; but the Question is , What kind of respect that is which can be due to them , when , let them speak their minds never so plainly , and agree in what they please , and deliver what they will as the Judgement of the Church ; yet all this can give us no Assurance at all on your Principles , unless your Church doth infallibly determine the same way . What then do the Fathers signifie with you ? Doth the Infallibility of your Churches Definition depend on the consent of the Fathers ? No , you tell us , She is supernaturally assisted by the Holy Ghost ; and if so , I suppose the judgement of the Fathers is not that which she relyes on . But , it may be , you will say , This supernatural Assistance directs the Church to that which was the Judgement of the Fathers in all Ages . This were something indeed , if it could be proved : But then I would never read the Fathers , to know what their mind is , but aske your Church what they meant : And , though your Church delivers that as their sense , which is as opposite as may be , both to their words and judgements ; yet this is part of the respect due to them , not to believe whatever they say themselves , but what your Church tells us they say . A most compendious way for interpreting Fathers , and making them sure not to speak any thing against your Church . Therefore I cannot but commend the ingenuity of Cornelius Mussus , the Bishop of Bitonto , who spake that out , which more wary men are contented onely to think . Ego , ut ingenuè fatear , plus uni summo Pontitifici crediderim in his quae mysteria fidei tangunt , quàm mille Augustinis , Hieronymis , Gregoriis . That I may deal freely , saith he , I would sooner believe the Pope in matters of Faith , than a thousand Augustines , Hieromes , and Gregories . Bravely said , and like a man that did heartily believe the Pope's Infallibility ! And yet no more than every one will be forced to do that understands the Consequence of his own Principles . And therefore Alphonsus à Castro was not to be blamed for preferring an Epistle of Anacletus ( though counterfeit ) because Pope , before Augustine , Hierome , or any other however holy or learned . These men understood themselves , and the interest of their Church . And , although the rest of them make finer leggs to the Fathers , than these do ; yet when they seem to cross their way , and entrench upon their Church , they find not much kinder entertainment for them . We may guess at the rest by two of them , men of great note in their several waies , the one for Controversies , the other for his Commentaries , viz. Bellarmine and Maldonate , and let us see , when occasion serves , how rudely they handle the Fathers . If S. Cyprian speaks against Tradition , it was , saith Bellarmine , In defence of his errour , and therefore no wonder if he argued after the manner of erroneous persons . If he opposeth Stephen the Bishop of Rome , in the business of Rebaptization ; He seemeth , saith he , To have erred mortally in it . If S. Ambrose pronounce Baptism in the name of Christ , to be valid , without the naming other Persons in the Trinity ; Bellarmine is not afraid to say , That , in his judgement , his Opinion is false . If S. Chrysostome saith , That it is better not to be present at the Eucharist , than to be present , and not receive it ; I say ( saith Bellarmine ) That Chrysostome , as at other times went beyond his bounds in saying so . If S. Augustine expound a place of Scripture not to his mind , he tells him roundly , He did not throughly consider what he said . Do not these things argue that due respect they had for the Fathers ; so long as they think they can make them serve their turns , then Who but the Fathers ? If they appear refractory , and will not serve as hewers of wood , and drawers of water to them , then Who are the Fathers ? it is the Churches judgement they rely on , and not the Fathers . And therefore they never want waies themselves of eluding all the Testimonies produced out of them : If they cannot say , those Testimonies are forged ( as some of them say it , without any shew of reason , concerning that part of the Epistle of Epiphanius , about the tearing the vail , in which an Image was painted at Anablatha . ) And as Bellarmine answers concerning the Author of the imperfect work on Matthew , because he saith , There is no way to the finding Truth , but reading the Scriptures ; he therefore saith , This whole place was inserted by the Arrians ; as though that had been any part of the Controversie between the Arrians and others . If Origen , or Cyril , on Leviticus , saith , It is necessary to follow the Scriptures , then an Answer is ready ▪ That these Homilies are of no great Authority : but if these will serve to defend the Apocrypha ; if they speak of the Obscurity of Scripture ; if they mention the observation of Lent ; if they speak of any thing tending to Auricular Confession , or Pennance , then they are good and authentick enough . Thus the price of the Fathers rises and falls according to their Vse , like Slaves in the market . If yet the Fathers seem to deliver their judgements peremptorily in a matter contrary to the present sense of their Church , then either they speak it in the heat of disputation , or , if not , they were contradicted by others as good as they ; if many of them concurr , yet it was but their private judgement , not the sense of the Catholick Church which they delivered . Still we see , the rate the Fathers stand at , is their agreement with the present Roman-Church , if they differ from this , they were Men like others , and might be deceived , only the Pope is infallible , or at least the present Roman-Church . For , if Hilary , Gregory Nyssen , Chrysostome , Cyril , Augustine , and others say , That Christ , when he said , Vpon this Rock will I build my Church , understood Peter's Confession or himself , Nihil magis alienum à sensu Christi cogitari potuit , saith Maldonate , Nothing could be more incongruous than what they say . And in the next words tell us , That all the Ancient Writers except Hilary , expounded , the gates of Hell one way , but he gives another sense of them . The same liberty he takes in very many other places . By which we have a tast of that due respect which you owe to the Fathers , which is , To value them , as far as they concurr with your Church , and no more ; otherwise they are but the results of mens particular phancies , and not to be compared with the infallible Judgement of your Church . But , though it may not be so evident , that you give so great respect to the Fathers , yet it is notorious what reverence you shew to the sacred Scriptures . As for Scripture ( say you ) we ever extol it above the Definitions of the Church : What , ever ! Do you think we have forgot the brave comparisons which have been made by your Writers , to shew the respect you bear to the Scriptures ? Is it not much for the honour of the Scriptures , to be said to have no more Authority than Aesops Fables , without the Testimony of the Church ? Did not those extoll it above the Church , who call'd it , A Nose of Wax ? And were not these some of you ? Doth not Bellarmine profess his high esteem of the Scriptures , when he saith , That the Scripture is no more to be believed , in saying , It is from God , than Mahomets Alcoran , because that saies so too ? Did not Caranza preferr the Scripture before the Church , when he said , That the Scripture must be regulated by the Church , and not the Church by the Scripture ? I need not mention Eckius his Evangelium nigrum and Theologia atramentaria , Pighius his plumbea Lesbiae regula , Valentia his Lapis Offensionis , Bellarmin's Commonitorium utile , which , and many others , are remaining Testimonies of that monstruous esteem , which those of your party have of the sacred Scriptures . But , if the esteem you have of the Scriptures be so great , Why lock you them up so carefully from the people in an unknown language ? Is it , lest such Jewels should lose their lustre by too often using ? Why are you so severe against your Proselytes reading them , Is it because you would not cast Pearls before Swine ? But still you extol the Scripture above the Definitions of the Church : How is that possible , when you tell us , The only Authority it hath , is from the Churches Testimony ? For the Authority of it supposeth it to be acknowledged for a Divine Revelation , and that , you tell us , we can have no Assurance of , but from your Churches Definition : And we had thought , that which gave Credit and Authority , had been greater than that which received it . There can be then little reason to take your word in a case of this nature , when your very next words give so palpable a reason to the contrary . For you suppose the Scripture unable to express it self to any intent or purpose , unless your Church be the Interpreter . For the Scripture , say you , being in many places obscure , we cannot be certain of its true sense , without the help of a living and infallible Judge , to determine and declare it ; which can be no other than the present Church . I answer . 1. Your meaning is not so plain , but that it wants the interpretation of your Church too . For what do you understand by the Scriptures being in many places obscure ? Is it only , that there are some passages which have their difficulties in them ? But what is this to the purpose , unless you could prove , that this obscurity is such as hinders it from being a Rule of Faith and Manners ? If you prove that , you do something . The Scripture we acknowledge hath its difficulties in it , but not such as hinder the great design God intended it for ; no more than the maculae which are in the Sun , hinder it from giving light to the world ; or some crabbed pieces in our Laws hinder them from being owned as the Laws of the Land. 2. Are those places obscure or no , which speak of the Churches Infallibility ? at least such as you produce for it afterwards ? This is evident , that there are no places whose sense is more controverted than theirs : Can these then be understood without a living and infallible Judge , or no ? If they may , so as we may be certain of their true sense , then why not all others which concern the Rule of Faith and manners , whose sense is far less disputed than of these ? If not , then we must suppose a living and infallible Judge , before we know whether there is such a one or no : For that is the thing enquired after in the meaning of these places , and you say , We cannot be certain of their sense without him , so that we must first suppose the thing to be true , and then prove it ; or else you run back again into your old Labyrinth . How know you that God hath promised , there shall be such an infallible Judge ? By such places ( say you ) as you produce for it . Well , but the Scripture being in many places obscure , How shall I be certain this is the true sense of them ? You say , because the present Church is the living and infallible Judge to determine and declare it . Do not you herein argue like a man , that can square Circles ? 3. In those places whose sense , you say , is so obscure , Where hath God made it necessary for us to have the certain sense of them ? You can have no pretence for all this for an infallible Judge , unless you could make it evident , that God hath left no mysteries in his Word , but he hath left your Church a Key to unlock them ; and therefore , I hope , there is a Clavis Apocalyptica too hanging at your Churches Girdle . It is true indeed , your Church is happily instrumental in explaining a mystery spoken of in Scripture , but not much for your comfort , it is a mystery of Iniquity . But in good earnest , do you think That God hath promised a living and infallible Judge to make us certain of the sense of obscure places in Scripture ? Then two things will necessarily follow from thence . 1. That it must be necessary , that all those that believe this infallible Judge must know the certain sense of these obscure places . 2. That this infallible Judge must give the certain sense of these places . But then , Why hath your present Church so neglected her Talent this way , that she hath not decided all the Controversies concerning the difficiliora loca . Such a Commentary as this were worth inquiring after . But yet , supposing your Church had done this , Could we be more certain of the sense of your Church , then we are now of the Scriptures ? I will suppose your Church so charitable , as to put so useful a thing in writing , for the general good of the world : But all Writings ( you tell us ) are obscure , and want a living Judge to interpret them ; and so consequently must that , and so in infinitum . But 4. All this while it is worth understanding , how you preferr the Scripture before the Church , when you make the Church the living and infallible Judge , to interpret the Scriptures . You make the Scripture a de●d Letter , but your Church is a living Judge , you make the sense of Scripture obscure , uncertain , and therefore giving occasion to all the errours in the world , but your Church is infallible , to determine all Controversies , and yet for all this , you preferr the Scripture before the Church . It is plain , you do not , in regard of evidence and certainty ; and , one would have thought , these had been the greatest Excellencies of a Rule of Faith. Do you preferr it as such before your Church ? If not , you deny it the peculiar property and design of it ; and therefore whatever else you attribute to it , you are guilty of the highest disparagement of it . Just as if one should commend a Mathematicians Square for the materials of it , or the Excellency of the Figures engraven on it ; but , in the mean time , tell him , It is oblique , crooked , uncertain , and he cannot draw a straight line by it : Do you think he would believe you commended his Square ? Just so do you commend the Scriptures ; and can you then imagine , that any rational man will believe , that you do preferr the Scriptures before the present Church ? It is next to be considered , what respect remains due to general Councils , if the present Church be supposed infallible . For ( say you ) though you willingly submit to them all , yet where they happen to be obscure in matters requiring Determination , we seek the assistance and direction of the same living infallible Rule , viz. the Tradition , or the Sentence of the present Church . But 1. You say , You submit to them all : but , Do you submit to them all as infallible , or no ? which you must of necessity do , or else apparently contradict your self ( which yet is no novelty for you to do ) for you spend a great deal of pains to prove general Councils infallible ; and therefore I hope you own them as infallible your self . If you own them to be infallible , what need of the sentence of the present Church , as to those Decrees which you already acknowledge infallible . Or , do you really own them no further to be infallible , than as they agree with the sentence of the present Church ? and then , I pray , What doth the pretended Infallibility of general Councils signifie , if your Church give all the Authority to them ? And what consents with your Church is infallible , and what doth not , is far from being so . 2. You say , General Councils may happen to be obscure in matters requiring Determination ; Do you mean , in things decreed by them or not ? If not , it is no wonder if they be obscure in matters they never meddle with ; therefore , I suppose , you mean in things determined by them . Then I further ask , Whether these Decrees of general Councils , were the Sentence of the present Church , to those who lived in the time of those Councils ? If they were , How could the Sentence of the present Church declare and determine the sense of what is obscure in Scripture , if , notwithstanding this Determination , the Sentence of the Church remains as obscure , as the sense of the Scripture ? If it was not obscure then , but is so now , Whence comes that obscurity ? the Sentence of the Council is supposed to be written then , that those who were not present at it might understand the Decree of it ; and it is supposed we have the very same Authentical Decrees of Councils , which they had who lived in the several Ages of them . How come they then to be more obscure to us , than they were to them ? 3. What do you mean by matters requiring Determination ? Is it not enough that things be infallibly determined once , but they must be determined over again . If the former Determination were infallible , what need any more ? or doth the Infallibility cease as soon as the Church ceaseth to be the present Church , and then that which comes to be the present Church , must convey an Infallibility into it ; but how comes any thing which was once infallible , to lose its Infallibility ? which is a thing really so obscure , that your present Church would do well to help us out in it . But if , notwithstanding all your pretence of the Infallibility of general Councils , nothing is truly to be owned as such , but what agrees with the Sentence of the present Church , then we plainly see , what reverence you shew to all general Councils , even as much as the present Church will let you , and no more , which , supposing it never so great , is not shewed to the Councils , but to your Church . For , the reason of that Reverence cannot be resolved into the Councils , but into that Church for whose sake you reverence them . And thus it evidently appears , That the cunning of this device is wholly your own , and notwithstanding these miserable shifts , you do finally resolve all Authorities of the Fathers , Councils , and Scriptures , into the Authority of the present Roman-Church ; which was the thing to be proved . The first Absurdity consequent from hence , which the Arch-Bishop chargeth your party with , is , That by this means they ascribe as great Authority ( if not greater ) to a part of the Catholick Church , as to the whole , which we believe in our Creed ; and which is the Societie of all Christians . And this is full of Absurdity in nature , in reason , in all things , that any part should be of equal worth , power , credit , or authority with the whole . Here you deny the Consequence , which , you say , depends upon his Lordships wilfully mistaken Notion of the Catholick Church ; which he saith , Is the Church we believe in our Creed , and is the Society of all Christians ; which ( you call ) a most desperate extension of the Church ; because thereby ( forsooth ) it will appear , that a part is not so great as the whole , viz. that the Roman-Church , in her full latitude , is but a piece or parcel of the Catholick Church believed in our Creed . Is this all the desperate Absurdity , which follows from his Lordships Answer ? I pray , shew it to have any thing tending to an Absurdity in it ? And though you confidently tell us , That the Roman-Church , taken as comprizing all Christians that are in her Communion , is the sole and whole Catholick Church ; yet I will contentedly put the whole issue of the cause upon the proof of this one Proposition , that the Roman-Church in its largest sense , is the sole and whole Catholick Church ; or that the present Roman-Church is a sound member of the Catholick Church . Your evidence from Ecclesiastical History , is such as I fear not to follow you in ; but , I beseech you , have a care of treading too near the Apostles heels : That any were accounted Catholicks meerly for their Communion with the Roman-Church ; or that any were condemned for Heresie or Schism purely for their dissent from it ; prove it when you please , I shall be ready ( God willing ) to attend your Motions . But it is alwaies your faculty , when a thing needs proving most , to tell us what you could have done : This , you say , You would have proved at large , if his Lordship had any more than supposed the contrary : But your Readers will think , that his Supposition , being grounded on such a Maxim of Reason , as that , mentioned by him , it had been your present business to have proved it : but I commend your prudence in adjourning it ; and , I suppose , you will do it , as the Court of Areopagus used to do hard causes , in diem longissimum . It is apparent , the Bishop speaks not of a part of the Church by representation of the whole , which is an objection no body but your self would here have fancied ; and therefore your Instance of a Parliament is nothing to the purpose , unless you will suppose , that Councils in the Church do represent in such a manner as Parliaments in England do ; and that their decision is obligatory in the same way as Acts of Parliament are : if you believe this to be good Doctrine , I will be content to take the Objecters place , and make the Application . The next Absurdity laid to your charge , is , as you summe it up , That in your Doctrine concerning the Infallibility of your Church , your proceeding is most unreasonable , in regard you will not have recourse to Texts of Scripture , exposition of Fathers , propriety of Language , Conference of Places , Antecedents and Consequents , &c. but argue , that the Doctrine of the present Church of Rome , is true and Catholick , because she professeth it to be such , which , saith he , is to prove idem per idem . To this you answer , That as to all those helps , you use them with much more candour than Protestants do : And , why so ? Because of their manifold wrestings of Scriptures and Fathers . Let the handling the Controversies of this Book , be the evidence between us in this case , and any indifferent Reader be the Judge . You tell us , You use all these helps : but to what purpose do you use them ? Do you by them prove the Infallibility of your Church ? If not , the same Absurdity lyes at your door still , of proving idem per idem . No , that you do not , you say ? But how doth it appear ? Thanks to these mute persons , the good Motives of Credibility , which come in again at a dead lift , but do no more service than before . I pray , cure the wounds they have received already , before you rally them again , or else , I assure you , what strength they have left , they will employ it against your selves . You suppose , no doubt , your Coleworts good , you give them us so often over ; but I neither like proving nor eating idem per idem . But yet we have two Auxiliaries more in the field , call'd Instances . The design of your first Instance , is , to shew , That if your Church be guilty of proving idem per idem , the Apostolical Church was so too . For you tell us , That a Sectary might , in the Apostles times , have argued against the Apostolical Church , by the very same method his Lordship here uses against the present Catholick Church . For , if you ask the Christians then , Why they believe the whole Doctrine of the Apostles , to be the sole true Catholick Faith , their Answer is , Because it is agreeable to the Doctrine of Christ. If you ask them , How they know it to be so , they will produce the words , sentences , and works of Christ , who taught it . But , if you ask a third time , By what means they are assured , that those Testimonies do indeed make for them or their cause , or are really the Testimonies and Doctrine of Christ , they will not then have recourse to those Testimonies or Doctrine , but their Answer is , They know it to be so , because the present Apostolick Church doth witness it . And so by consequence prove idem per idem . Thus the Sectary . I know not whether your faculty be better at framing Questions or Answers to them ; I am sure it is extraordinary at both . Is it not enough to be in a Circle your selves , but you must needs bring the Apostles into it too ? at least , if you may have the management of their Doctrine , you would do it . The short Answer to all this , is , That the ground why the Christians did assent to the Apostles Doctrine , as true , was , because God gave sufficient evidence , that their Testimony was infallible ; in such things where such Infallibility was requisite . For you had told us before , That the Apostles did confirm their words with signs that followed , by which signs all their hearers were bound to submit themselves unto them , and to acknowledge their words for infallible Oracles of Truth . Was not here then sufficient ground for assent in the Primitive Christians , to the Apostles Doctrine ? Not as you weakly imagine , because the Doctrine of the Apostles was suitable to the Doctrine of Christ ; for the ground why they assented to the Doctrine of Christ , was , because of the Testimony of the Apostles . And therefore , to say , They believed the Doctrine of the Apostles , because it was agreeable to the Doctrine of Christ , and then that they believed the Doctrine of Christ , because it was suitable to the Testimony of the Apostles , is a Circle fit for none but your self , and that silly person of your own moulding , whom you call the Sectary . It were worth considering too , How the works of Christ could prove the Doctrine of the Apostles suitable to his own . I had thought Christs works had proved his own Testimony to be true , and not the Apostles Doctrine to be consonant to his : The works of Christ shew us the reason , why he was to be believed in what he delivered ; and did not the works of the Apostles do so too ? What need then any rational person enquire further , why the Apostles Doctrine was to be believed ? Was it not on the same account that the Doctrine of Christ was to be believed ? But , say you , How should you know their Doctrine was the same . What , do you want an infallible Testimony for this too ? or , do you believe that God can contradict himself ; or that Christ should send such to deliver his Doctrine to the world , and attest it with miracles who should falsifie and corrupt it ? Now , you will say , I am come over to you , and answer as you do , that the Apostles Testimony was to be believed , because of the pregnant and convincing Motives of Credibility . This , I grant ; but must be excused as to what follows , That these same Motives moved the Primitive Christians , and us , in our respective times , to believe the Church . Prove but that , and I yield the cause . But till then , I pray , give us leave to believe that still you prove idem per idem ; and your Answers are like your Proofs ; for this we have had often already , and have sufficiently examined before : as likewise your other Coccysm about the Formal Object of Faith , and certain inducements to accept the Churches Infallibility ; which I shall not think worth repeating , till you think what I have said against it before , worth answering . Your second Instance is , ad hominem ; whereby you would prove , That if he acknowledge the Church infallible in Fundamentals , he must prove idem per idem , as much as you do . For ( say you ) if he be demanded a reason why he believes such Points as he calls Fundamental , his Answer is , because they are agreeable to the Doctrine of Christ. If he be asked , How he knows them to be so , he will , no doubt , produce the words , sentences and works of Christ , who taught the said Fundamental Points . But , if he be asked a third time , By what means he is assured , that these Testimonies do make for him , then he will not have recourse to the words themselves , i. e. to the Bible , but his final Answer will be , He knows them to be so , and that they do make for him , because the present Church doth infallibly witness so much from Tradition , and according to Tradition , which is ( say you ) to prove idem per idem , as much as we . Things are not alwaies just as you would have them : If we allow you to make both Objections and Answers for us , no doubt you are guilty of no Absurdity so great , but we shall be equally guilty of it . But , it is the nature both of your Religion and Arguments not to be able to stand a Tryal : but however , they must undergo it . I say then , that granting the Church infallible in the belief of Fundamentals , it doth not follow that we must prove idem per idem , as you do . For , when we ask you , Why you believe your Doctrine to be the sole Catholick Faith , your final Answer is , because your Church is infallible ; which is answering by the very thing in Question , for you have no other way to judge of the Catholick Faith , but by the Infallibility of your Church ; but when you ask us , Why we believe such an Article to be Fundamental ; as for Instance , That Christ will give Eternal Life to them that obey him , we answer , not because the Church , which is infallible in Fundamentals , delivers it to be so , which were answering idem per idem ; but we appeal to that common reason which is in mankind , Whether , if the Doctrine of Christ be true , this can be other than a Fundamental Article of it ; it being that , without which the whole design of Christian Religion comes to nothing . Therefore you much mistake , when you think we resolve our Faith of Fundamentals into the Church as the infallible Witness of them ; for , though the Church may be infallible in the belief of all things Fundamental ( for otherwise it were not a Church , if it did not believe them ) it doth not thence necessarily follow , That the Church must infallibly witness what is Fundamental , and what not . It is sufficient that the Church doth deliver from the consent of universal Tradition , that infallible Rule of Faith ( which , to be sure , contains all things Fundamental in it ) though she never meddle with the deciding what Points are Fundamental , and what not . If you therefore ask me , Why I believe any Point supposed Fundamental , I answer , By all the evidence which assures me , that the Doctrine containing that Point , is of Divine Revelation ; If you aske me , How I know that this Point is part of that Doctrine , I appeal to the common sense and reason of the world , as to things plainly Fundamental , and therefore by this means your third Question is prevented , How I know this to be the meaning of those words ; for , I suppose , no one that can tell , that two and two make four , can question but if the Doctrine of Christ be true , the belief of it is necessary to Salvation , which is it we mean by Fundamental . Either therefore prove it necessary , that the Church must infallibly witness what is Fundamental , and what not ; and that we must rely on such a Testimony in the belief of Fundamentals , or you prove nothing at all to your purpose , no more than your convincing Motives of Credibility , which , were they made into a grand Sallad , would know the way to the Table , they are served so often up : But , I have found them so dry , and insipid already , I have no encouragement to venture on them any more . But , still you are deservedly afraid we should not think worthily enough of your Churches Infallibility . You therefore tell us very wisely , that this Infallibility is not a thing , that is not infallible ; For , say you , Which Infallibility must come from the Holy Ghost , and be more than humane or moral , and therefore must be truly supernatural , &c. It is well you tell us of such a rare distinction of Infallibility ; for else , I assure you , we had never thought of it , viz. of an Infallibility that may be deceived , and an Infallibility that cannot be deceived , or , in your words , a humane and moral Infallibility , and a supernatural divine Infallibility . To ease you therefore of your fears , I solemnly promise you , that when I believe your Church infallible , I will not believe it to have a humane , moral Infallibility , but supernatural and divine . That is , when I believe her infallible , I believe her infallible . Your mind being eased of this grand fear , you think all the difficulty is over , and that you are out of any possibility of a Circle ; but , I have endeavoured before to shew , you are not infallible in that : For the charge you exhibit against the Bishop , as though you had left him tumbling in the Circle you had so easily got out of ; I shall consider it in its due time and place ; but , if one may guess at being in a Circle by tumbling , you will not seem very free from it , who seem to be at very little ease by your impatience of being held to the subject in hand . Well , but yet our Conceptions must once more be rectified as to the nature of this Infallibility ; before our danger was least , we should have believed it to be only a humane , moral , and not supernatural Infallibility , and now we are bid have a care lest we think it to be any more , than in a sort , and in some manner divine . But , what kind of transcendental thing is this Infallibility ? It is not humane , nor yet divine , and yet it is supernatural ; which is scarce in some sort , or in a manner sense . How comes it to be supernatural , if it be not divine ? Or , is it naturally supernatural , and humanely divine ? It must not then be called divine , but , in a manner , and after a sort : But yet ( say you ) so far as concerns precise Infallibility , or certain Connexion with Truth , it is so truly supernatural and certain , that in this respect it yields nothing to the Scripture it self . These are your own words : And if you did not believe Transubstantiation , I should think this the greatest non-sense in the world . But , What doth that Infallibility which is more than in a sort divine , import beyond what you assert doth belong to the Church ? Is that any more than precise Infallibility , and certain Connexion with Truth , and such as is in the Scripture , and all this your Church hath , and yet , when we say so , she drops a Court●sie , and cryes , No , forsooth , though she be infallible , yet she desires to be excused , she is not infallible , but only as if one should say in a manner , and after a sort , and so forth . Just as if one should ask a new married woman , Whether she were certainly married to such a man , and she should answer as to what concerns marrying , she was certainly married , but yet she was not absolutely married , but only in a manner , and after a sort . This is so great a mystery , you will oblige the world much to inform it a little more fully in these following Questions , What kind of Infallibility that is , which is supernatural , and by the assistance of the Holy Ghost , which is equal to the Scripture it self in point of Certainty and Infallibility ( your own words ) and yet is divine , but in a manner , and after a sort : And what way we should come to understand that manner and sort , and what degrees and sorts there are in Infallibility ? Whether any thing , so far as it is infallible , be not absolutely , as well as precisely infallible ; and whether that which is but in a sort divine , be not in a sort not divine ; Whether that which is in a sort not divine , be not likewise in the same sort not infallible ( since all this Infallibility , by your own Confession , is from the Holy Ghost ) and whether this be not an excellent way in a manner , and after a sort , to reconcile Contradictions . For , if a man should ask you , Whether one might be , and not be , at the same time ; you might easily tell him , That absolutely and precisely he cannot be , and not be ; but in a manner , and after a sort , he may be , and not be , together . You have cause therefore to make much of this distinction , and you never need fear baffling , as long as you carry it about with you ; it is a most excellent preservative against all the batteries of sense and reason . But lest yet , for all this , we should apprehend something by this in a manner , and after a sort , as though they were some odd diminishing terms : You tell us , No ; Catholick Divines , by this manner of speaking , do not intend to deny the Church to be equal even to Scripture it self in point of Certainty and Infallibility . What is now become of our manner and sort , when the Church dares justle with the Scripture for the upper hand , at least for an equal place as to Infallibility ? What then is the intent of this distinction ? It is to shew the prerogatives of Scripture above the Definitions of the Church . This doth well however to follow the rest , it comes so near to a contradiction , for if the Church be equal to Scripture in point of Certainty and Infallibility , What prerogative can be left to the Scripture above the Church ? when that which makes it Scripture , and the Rule of Faith is only its Certainty and Infallibility ? Yes , you tell us , The Scripture doth much exceed the Church in regard of its larger extent of Truth : because there not only every reason , but every word and tittle is matter of Faith ; but in the Definitions of the Church , neither the arguments , reasons , nor words , are absolutely speaking matters of Faith , but only the thing declared to be such . Excellent good still , and all of a piece ! I commend you , that you would not offer to mix any thing of sense in so good a discourse : For 1. How comes the Scripture to have a larger extent of Truth , than the Church , if we cannot know what Truth is in the Scripture , but from the Church ? 2. How every word and tittle comes to be matter of Faith in Scripture , and not in the Church , when you say , The Church is equal to the Scripture in point of Certainty and Infallibility ? 3. How any word and tittle can be any where a matter of Faith ? I had thought , it had been the sense and thing understood by those words , had been matters of Faith ; and then it is all one with the Scripture and Church , for you say , as to the Church , the thing declared is a matter of Faith ? 4. What that thing is , which is declared by the Church , which is neither arguments , reasons nor words ; and if it doth consist of these , how one can be believed , and not the other : Doth your Church declare things so nakedly as to do it without arguments , reasons or words ? That she can do it without words , it is hard to believe , but very easie , that she can do it without arguments or reasons . 5. Are men bound to believe what she so declares , without arguments and reasons too ? If they be , shew whence that Obligation comes ; and when you attempt that , you endeavour to shew some argument and reason why they should believe it . 6. What do you mean , that these arguments , reasons and words , are not absolutely speaking matters of Faith , it should seem then , that conditionally they may be so , and then shew the difference between them , and those in Scripture . 7. How is it possible for us to assent to any thing as a matter of Faith , if we do not first assent to the arguments , reasons and words , by which you would perswade us to believe the thing to be declared by the Church , and what is declared by the Church is true . 8. Whether , when you say , That in the Scripture every word and tittle is matter of Faith , at least implicitely , and necessarily to be believed by all that knew it to be a part of Scripture ; this will not equally hold as to the Church too , that every word and tittle , is matter of Faith , at least implicitely to all that know it to be a part of the Churches Definition ? And where then lyes the prerogative of Scripture above the Church ? Besides , you tell us , The Church hath certain limits , and can define nothing , but what was either revealed before , or hath such connexion with it , as it may be rationally and logically deduced from it , as appertaining to the Declaration and Defence of that which was before revealed . That herein you consult much for the honour of the Scripture above the Church , will appear when you have answered these Queries . 1. When the belief and sense of Scripture depend according to you , upon the Churches Testimony , Whether hath more limits , the Church or Scripture ? For , whatever is in Scripture , must as to us ha●e its Authority from the Church ; and therefore your Church sets what bounds she please as to things revealed in Scripture . 2. Who shall be Judge , whether your Church define nothing but what was revealed before , when , according to you , we can have no assurance as to any Divine Revelation , but from the Judgement of your Church ? 3. When your Church defines things to be matters of Faith , which we think are not only not logically and rationally deduced from Scripture , but plainly repugnant to it . How can we believe that she doth not pretend to reveal something which was not revealed before ? 4. Is that rational and logical deduction from Scripture sufficient to perswade any rational man or no ? If not , Why use you those terms ? if it be , What need your Churches Definition , in a thing that is obvious to any ones reason ? 5. Must we believe your Church absolutely , as to what is rationally and logically deduced from Scripture ? If so , then , when she declares her own Infallibility , we must believe that to be rationally deduced , because she declares it . 6. Doth your Church make use of Logick and Reason in her deductions ? then , Why may not every one else , unless she hath only the gift of Logick and Reason , which , I suppose , you will say , is but in a manner , and after a sort . Moreover , say you , The Church hath the receiving and interpreting Scripture for its end ; and consequently is in that respect inferiour to it . But , for whose end do you mean ? the Churches , or the Scriptures end ? If the latter ; Shew us how any end of Scripture is attained by your Churches interpretation ; if you mean the Churches end , I verily believe you ; that your Church pretends to the receiving and interpreting Scripture for her own ends , and consequently , in that respect , she makes the Scripture inferiour to her . Here again we meet with another piece of your Errantry , in attempting to vindicate your Doctrine from the enchantment of another contradiction . You say , You hold it necessary , that we are to believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God upon Divine Authority ; and yet , you tell us ▪ That the Churches Authority , on which we are to believe the Scriptures is but in some sort , and after a manner Divine . This seems to have a huge resemblance to a Contradiction ; or else you must say , That it is not necessary that we believe the Scriptures on a simply Divine Authority , but only on such a one as is in some sort , and after a manner Divine : For , if you make the same Authoririty to be Divine absolutely in your pretence , and only after a sort in your Application you reach not the thing you promised . If there be not , as you say , any necessity of defending the Churches Authority to be simply Divine , in answering that Question , How we know Scripture to be Scripture , then there can be no necessity of asserting , that we are bound to believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God upon Divine Authority ? Which yet is your assertion before ; but yet you would fain distinguish between ▪ that which is absolutely infallible and divine , the Churches Authority ( you say ) must be the former , but cannot be the latter ; when yet this Infallibility is , as you again tell us , By the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost . These are fit hedges to keep in Cuckows , but none else . But , as you are still off and on , sometimes seeming to go forward , and then stepping back again ; sometimes answering , sometimes proving , which are great arguments of a disturbed mind , or a being in a Labyrinth , which you take many steps in , but can find no way out of , lest you should seem not sufficiently to contradict your self : You go about to prove , That the Authority , teaching Scripture to be the Word of God , must be absolutely infallible ; If you prove that , I will undertake to prove it must be simply Divine : But , let us see however , how irrefragably you prove it . And the immediate Reason , Why the Authority teaching Scripture to be the Word of God , must be absolutely infallible , is , because it is an Article of Christian Faith , that all those Books which the Church hath defined for Canonical Scripture , are the Word of God ; and seeing every Article of Faith must be revealed , or taught by Divine Authority , this also must be revealed , and consequently no Authority less than Divine , is sufficient to move us to believe it as an Article of Faith. But 1. Is it not possible for you to utter so many words without a contradiction ? Were you not just before distinguishing that Authority which is Divine , from that which is absolutely infallible ; and but in a manner , and after a sort Divine ? And yet here , that Authority which you call absolutely infallible , in the former part of your Argument ; in the last you explain it , No Authority less than Divine ; Doth it not then follow , that an Authority absolutely infallible , is an Authority no less than Divine . But to let that pass among the rest of his Brethren . 2. Why take you this needless pains to prove that which you say before , You and your Adversary are agreed in . 3. Supposing you should meet with some who should question this , as it is probable you may do before we part ; I think it no difficult thing to answer this Argument of yours , which , in short , is , Every Article of Faith must be believed upon Divine Authority , but that the Scriptures are the Word of God , is an Article of Faith. To which I answer , If by an Article of Faith , you mean , that we must give an undoubted assent to , then I grant , that this is an Article of Faith , but deny , that every such Article must be believed upon Divine Authority ; if by an Article of Faith you mean something to be believed upon Divine Testimony , then I grant , that every such Article must be built on Divine Authority , but shall desire you to prove , that that Faith whereby I believe Scripture to be Scripture , must be built on a Divine Testimony . For , I cannot see , how any , who say so , can free themselves from a Circle : and of all persons , you have the least reason to say so ; for you deny the Churches Testimony to be properly Divine , and withall the Argument is very easily retorted upon your self . For , say you , Whatsoever is an Article of Faith , must be believed on Divine Authority , but that the Church is infallible , I suppose , to you is an Article of Faith : Name therefore what Divine Authority the belief of that is built upon ? But , Do not you say , the belief of that is built on the Motives of Credibility , and , I suppose , you distinguish them from Divine Authority , or else they can do you no service for avoiding the Circle : Either therefore deny that your Churches Infallibility is an Article of Faith , or else deny it to be necessary , that every Article of Faith , must be built on Divine Authority , and then farewell your old friends the Motives of Credibility ; or else , you see , how necessary it is for you , if you will vindicate your self from contradiction , to answer this Argument , and when you have done so , you will believe I did not much dread the force of it . The rest of that Paragraph , is a bare Repetition , the fourth or fifth time of your distinction about the Formal Object of Faith , and the infallible Assurance of it , which is a thing in it self so incongruous , and unreasonable , that I had thoughts mean enough of you , when I met with it first ; but have much meaner , now I meet with it so often , for I see , as pitiful a shift as it is , you have no other to make use of on all occasions . His Lordship goes on to prove that , since it is confessed between him and his Adversary , That we must be able to prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God , by some Authority that is absolutely Divine ; this Authority cannot be that of the Church . For the Church consists of men subject to errour ; and all the parts being all liable to mistaking , and fallible , the whole cannot possibly be infallible in and of it self , and priviledged from being deceived in some things or other . To this you answer , His Lordship's Argument ( that the whole may erre , because every part may erre ) is disproved by himself ; because in Fundamentals he grants the whole Church cannot erre , and yet that any particular man may erre even in those points . But , is it not plain , that his Lordship's design is to prove , that if all the parts are fallible , the Authority of the whole cannot be simply Divine ; and therefore he saith himself , that in Fundamentals , in which the Vniversal Church cannot erre , her Authority is not Divine , because the Church is tyed to the use of means . You must therefore prove , that when every part is acknowledged fallible , the Authority of the whole in propounding any thing to be believed , can be infallible in and of it self : I cannot therefore understand , how the perfection of Infallibility in the proposition of any Object to be believed , can be applied to the whole Church , when every particular member of it in such a Proposition is supposed to be fallible . The Arch-Bishop therefore tells you , That there is special immediate Revelation requisite to the very least degree of Divine Authority ; to avoid which , you would fain prove , that there may be absolute Infallibility , without Divine Authority , and immediate Assistance of the Holy Ghost , in delivering Objects of Faith , without immediate Revelation . You tell us therefore , Though the Church use means , yet she receives not her Infallibility from them , but from the Assistance of the Holy Ghost , which makes her Definitions truly infallible , though they be not new Revelations . But , How do you prove , that any thing but an immediate Divine Revelation , can make such a Divine Testimony which is supposed necessary for the belief of Scripture to be Scripture ? How can you make it appear , that there can be Infallibility in the Conclusion , where there was not Infallibility in judging of the Truth of the Premises ? You say , By the Assistance of the Holy Ghost . But why should you not believe such an Assiance in the one , as well as the other ? If therefore you assert , that the Spirit of God doth not assist infallibly in the use of the means , but only in the conclusion , then it must be an immediate Revelation ; for what else it should be , is not intelligible . For , I had thought the Revelation had been immediate , when somewhat more was discovered than all use of means could attain to : therefore the Churches Infallibility must be a meer Enthusiasm . No , say you , Because it only declares what was formerly revealed . Though that be a Question among some of your selves ; yet , supposing it to be so , it clears not the business . For , suppose that God had supernaturally assisted the Vnderstanding of any Prophet in declaring a Prophecy which had been revealed before , Would not this have been as immediate a Revelation to that Prophet , as if it had been a New Prophecy : And the case is the same here ; for , though you say , the Material Objects of Faith be revealed before , yet we cannot know the Formal Object of Faith , without your Churches declaration , so that on your Principles there cannot lye an Obligation to Faith on us , without your Churches Definition ; and therefore that is as necessary to us , as immediate Revelation ; and to the Church it self , when you say , The Infallibility proceeds so immediately from God , that if the Church should fall into errour , that would be ascribed to God as much as in case of Divine Revelation , What difference can you make between them ? For , it is not , Whether the Object be new or old , which makes an immediate Revelation ; but the immediate Impression of it on the understanding ? For if the Spirit of God doth immediately discover to any one , a thing knowable by natural causes , is it any thing the less an immediate Divine Revelation ? So it must be in things already revealed , if the same things be discovered in an immediate infallible manner to the mind of any , the Revelation is as immediate as if they had never been revealed before . Your last Paragraph affords us still more evidence of your self-contradicting faculty ; for which we need no more than lay your words together . Your words next before were , If the Church should fall into errour , it would be as much ascribed to God himself , as in case of immediate Divine Revelation ; but here you add ; Neither is it necessary for us to affirm , that the Definition of the Church , is God's immediate Revelation ; as , if the Definition were false , God's Revelation must be also such : It is enough for us to averr , that God's Promise would be infringed , as truly it would in that Supposition . From which we may learn very useful instructions . 1. That God's Promise may he infringed , and yet God's Revelation not proved to be false : But whence came that Promise ? Was it not a Divine Revelation ? if it was undoubtedly such , Can such a Promise be false , and not God's Revelation ? 2. That though if the Church erre , God must be fallible , yet for all this , all God's Revelations may remain infallible . 3. That though the only ground of Infallibility be the immediate Assistance of the Holy Ghost , which gives as great an Infallibility , as ever was in Prophets and Apostles ; yet we must not say , That such an Infallibility doth suppose an immediate Revelation . 4. That though God's Veracity would be destroyed , if the Church should define any thing for a point of Catholick Faith , which were not revealed from God , which are your next words ; yet we are not to think , if her Definition be false , God's Revelation must be also such , which are your words foregoing . Those are excellent Corollaries to conclude so profound a discourse with . And , if the Bishop ( as you say ) had little reason to accuse you for maintaining a party ; I am sure , I have less to admire you , for your seeking Truth ; and what ever animosity you are led by , I hope I have made it evident , you are led by very little reason . CHAP. VI. Of the Infallibility of Tradition . Of the unwritten Word , and the necessary Ingredients of it . The Instances for it particularly examined and disproved . The Fathers Rule for examining Traditions . No unwritten Word the Foundation of Divine Faith. In what sense Faith may be said to be Divine . Of Tradition being known by its own light , and the Canon of the Scripture . The Testimony of the Spirit , how far pertinent to this Controversie . Of the use of reason in the resolution of Faith. T. C ' s. Dialogue answered , with another between himself and a Sceptick . A twofold resolution of Faith into the Doctrine , and into the Books . Several Objections answered from the Supposition made of a Child brought up without sight of Scripture . Christ no Ignoramus nor Impostor though the Church be not infallible . T. C ' s. Blasphemy in saying otherwise . The Testimonies of Irenaeus and S. Augustin examined and retorted . Of the nature of infallible Certainty , as to the Canon of Scripture ; and whereon it is grounded . The Testimonies produced by his Lordship vindicated . YOu begin this Chapter with as much confidence , as if you had spoken nothing but Oracles in the foregoing . Whether the Bishop or you were more hardly put to it , let any indifferent Reader judge : If he did , as you say , tread on the brink of a Circle ; we have made it appear , notwithstanding all your evasions , that you are left in the middle of it . The reason of his falling on the unwritten Word , is not his fear of stooping to the Church , to shew it him , and finally depend on her Authority ; but to shew the unreasonableness of your proceedings , who talk much of an unwritten Word , and are not able to prove any such thing . If he will not believe any unwritten Word , but what is shewn him delivered by the Prophets and Apostles , I think he hath a great deal of reason for such incredulity , unless you could shew him some assurance of any unwritten Word , that did not come from the Apostles . Though he desired not to read unwritten Words in their Books , which is a wise Question you ask ; yet he reasonably requested some certain evidence of what you pretend to be so , that he might not have so big a Faith as to swallow into his belief , that every thing which his adversary saies is the unwritten Word , is so indeed . If it be not your desire he should , we have the greater hopes of satisfaction from you ; but if you crave the indifferent Reader 's Patience , till he hear reason from you , I am afraid his patience will be tyred , before you come to it . But , whatever it is , it must be examined . Though your discourse concerning this unwritten Word , be as the rest are , very confused and immethodical , yet I conceive the design and substance of it lyes in these particulars , as will appear in the examination of them . 1. That there is an unwritten Word , which must be believed by us , containing such doctrinal Traditions , as are warranted by the Church for Apostolical . 2. That the ground of believing this unwritten Word , is from the Infallibility of the Church , which defines it to be so . 3. That our belief of the Scriptures must be grounded on such an unwritten Word , which is warranted by the Church : under each of these I shall examine faithfully what belongs to them in your indigested discourse . The first of these is taken from your own words ; where you tell us , That our Ensurancer in the main Principle of Faith concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God , is Apostolical Tradition ; and well may it be so , for such Tradition declared by the Church , is the unwritten Word of God. And you after tell us , That every Doctrine , which any particular person may please to call Tradition , is not therefore to be received as God's unwritten Word , but such doctrinal Traditions only , as are warranted to us by the Church for truly Apostolical , which are consequently God's unwritten Word . So that these three things are necessary ingredients of this unwritten Word . 1. That it must be originally Apostolical , and not only so , but it must be of Divine Revelation to the Apostles too . For otherwise it cannot be God's Word at all , and therefore not his unwritten Word . I quarrel not at all with you for speaking of an unwritten Word , if you could prove it ; for it is evident to me , that God's Word is no more so , by being written or printed , than if it were not so : for the writing adds no Authority to the Word , but only is a more certain means of conveying it to us . It is therefore God's Word , as it proceeds from him ; and that which is now his written Word , was once his unwritten Word : but however , whatever is God's Word , must come from him , and since you derive the source of the unwritten Word from the Apostles , whatever you call an unwritten Word , you must be sure to derive its pedegree down from them . So that insisting on that point of time , when this was declared and owned for an unwritten Word , you must be able to shew , that it came from the Apostles , otherwise it cannot be owned as an Apostolical Tradition . 2. That what you call an unwritten Word , must be something doctrinal ; so you call them your self doctrinal Traditions , i. e. such as contain in them somewhat dogmatical or necessary to be believed by us : and thence it was , this Controversie rose from the Dispute concerning the sufficiency of the Scriptures , as a Rule of Faith , Whether that contained all God's Word , or all matters to be believed or no ; or , Whether there were not some Objects of Faith , which were never written , but conveyed by Tradition ? 3. That what is thus doctrinal , must be declared by the Church to be an Apostolical Tradition ; which you in terms assert . According then to these Rules we come to examine the Evidences by you produced for such an unwritten Word . For which , you first produce several Instances out of S. Austin , of such things which were in his time judged to be such , i. e. doctrinal Traditions derived from the Apostles , and have ever since been conserved and esteemed such in the whole Church of Christ. The first you instance in , is that we now treat , That Scripture is the Word of God , for which you propose the known place wherein he affirms he should not believe the Gospel , but for the Authority of the Church moving him thereto . But this proves nothing to your purpose , unless you make it appear , that the Authority of the Church could not move him to believe the Gospel , unless that Authority be supposed to be an unwritten Word . For , I will suppose , that S. Austin , or any other rational man might be sufficiently induced to believe the Gospel , on the account of the Churches Authority , not as delivering any doctrinal Tradition in the nature of an unwritten Word , but as attesting that Vniversal Tradition , which had been among all Christians concerning it . Which Universal Tradition is nothing else but a conveying down to us the judgement of sense and reason in the present case . For the Primitive Christians being best able to judge as to what Authentick Writings came from the Apostles , not by any unwritten Word , but by the use of all moral means , it cannot reasonably be supposed , that the successive Christians should imbezzle these Authentick Records , and substitute others in the place of them . When therefore Manichaeus pretended the Authenticalness of some other writings , besides those then owned by the Church , S. Austin did no more than any reasonable man would do in the like case , viz. appeal to the Vniversal Tradition of the Catholick Church ; upon the account of which , he saies , He was induced to believe the Gospel it self , i. e. not so much the Doctrine , as the Books containing it . But of this more largely elsewhere . I can hardly excuse you from a falsification of S. Austin's meaning , in the ensuing words , which you thus render : If any clear Testimony were brought out of Scripture against the Church , he would neither believe the Scripture , nor the Church ; whereas it appears by the words cited in your own Margin , his meaning is only this , If you can find ( saith he ) something very plain in the Gospel concerning the Apostleship of Manichaeus , you will thereby weaken the Authority of those Catholicks , who bid me , that I should not believe you ; whose Authority being weakned , neither can I believe the Gospel , because , through them , I believed it . Is here any like what you said , or at least would seem to have apprehended to be his meaning ? which is plainly this . If against the consent of all those Copies which the Catholick Christians received , those Copies should be found truer , which have in them something of the Apostleship of Manichaeus ; this must needs weaken much the Authority of the Catholick Church in its Tradition , whom he adhered to against the Manichees ; and their Authority being thus weakned , his Faith , as to the Scriptures delivered by them , must needs be much weakned too . To give you an Instance of a like nature ; The Mahumetans pretend , that in the Scripture there was anciently express mention of their Prophet Mahomet , but that the Christians , out of hatred of their Religion , have erased all those places which spake of him : Suppose now , a Christian should say , If he should find in the Gospel express mention of Mahomet's being a Prophet , it would much weaken the Authority of the whole Christian Church ; which being so weakned , it must of necessity weaken the Faith of all those who have believed our present Copies Authentick , upon the account of the Christian Churches Authority . Is not this plainly the case S. Austin speaks of ; and , Is it any more than any man's reason will tell him ? Not that the Churches Authority is to be relyed on as judicially or infallibly , but as rationally , delivering such an Universal Tradition to us . And , might not S. Austin , on the same reason , as well believe the Acts of the Apostles as the Gospel , when they were both equally delivered by the same Universal Tradition ? What you have gained then to your purpose from these three citations out of S. Austin , in your first Instance , I cannot easily imagine . Your second Tradition is , That the Father is not begotten of any other person . S. Austin's words are , Sicut Patrem in illis libris nusquam Ingenitum legimus , & tamen dicendum esse defenditur . We never read in the Scriptures , that the Father is unbegotten ; and yet it is defended , that we must say so . And had they not good reason with them to say so , who believed that he was the Father by way of exclusion of such a kind of Generation as the Eternal Son of God is supposed to have ? But , Must this be an Instance of a doctrinal Tradition , containing some Object of Faith distinct from Scripture ? Could any one , whoever believed the Doctrine of the Trinity as revealed in Scripture , believe or imagine any other ? that though it be not in express terms set down in Scripture , yet no one that hath any conceptions of the Father , but this is implied in them . If it be therefore a Tradition , because it is not expresly in Scripture , Why may not Trinity , Hypostasis , Person , Consubstantiality , be all unwritten Traditions , as well as this ? You will say , Because , though the words be not there , yet the sense is : and I pray , take the same Answer for this of the Father's being unbegotten , Your third is , Of the perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary : This indeed , S. Austin saith , is to be believed fide integra , but he saith not , divinâ ; but , Do you therefore make this a doctrinal Tradition , and an unwritten Word ? If you make it a doctrinal Tradition , you must shew us , what Article of Faith is contained in it ; that it was not looked on as an unwritten Word , will appear by the disputations of those Fathers , who writ most eagerly about it , who make it their design to prove it out of Scripture . Those who did most zealously appear against the Opinion of Helvidius , were S. Hierom , and S. Ambrose , of the Latin Church , S. Austin only mentions it in the places by you cited : Of the Greek Church Epiphanius , and S. Basil. And yet every one of these contends to have it proved out of Scripture . S. Hierom enters his dispute against Helvidius upon those terms of confuting him out of Scripture ; and towards the conclusion of that discourse , see what a friend S. Hierom is to doctrinal Traditions . As , saith he , we deny not the things which are written , so we embrace not the things which are not written . We believe the Incarnation , because we read it ; we believe not the Marriage of Mary after her delivery , because we read it not . St. Ambrose , in his Epistle to Theophilus and Anysius , where he first mentions this Opinion , argues against it wholly from the Testimony of Scripture ; and the unreasonableness of the thing . To the same purpose Epiphanius discourseth of this subject , whose utmost Arguments are only probabilities ; Whether the Antidicomariani were the same with Helvidians , as S. Austin supposeth : Or , Whether they were the Disciples of Apollinarius , who broached the same Doctrine in the East , at the time Helvidius did in the West , as others suppose is not material to our purpose ; but this latter seems to be the Opinion of Epiphanius : Who in his Epistle , written in Confutation of that Opinion , chargeth the first Authours of it with great Ignorance of the Scriptures , and urgeth many places to prove the perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary ; and therefore did not look on it as an unwritten Word . St. Basil , in his discourse concerning the Humane Generation of Christ , falls upon this Subject , and goes about to prove it from the importance of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which ( saith he ) although it seems to speak some circumscription of time , yet it really denotes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an indefinite time , as in that , I will be with you alwaies to the end of the world . But he ushers in this discourse with this remarkable Expression ; Although this be no hinderance to the Doctrine of Piety ; for till the Oeconomy of her delivery was accomplished , her Virginity was necessary ; but what became of it afterwards is not pertinent to this mystery : however , because the ears of those who love Christ , will hardly entertain this , that Mary ceased to be a Virgin , we suppose these proofs sufficient for it . Judge then , whether S. Basil did believe this to be a Doctrine of Faith , or an unwritten Word . This Testimony Fronto Ducaeus , is much troubled with , and would go about to prove this to be an Article of Faith , from the Councils of Constantinople and the Lateran ; in the first of which she is only called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . But doth that note it to be an Article of Faith ? As for his evasion of this Testimony , it is so impertinent , that I shall not repeat it , although he voucheth Vasquez for the Authour of it . It cannot be denied , but that afterwards S. Basil produceth a Tradition for it concerning Zachary's placing the Virgin Mary , after her delivery , among the Virgins , for which he was slain of the Jews , between the Temple and the Altar . But , we may guess at the credit of this Tradition , by what S. Hierom saith of it , that it came ex Apocryphorum somniis and withall , gives a sufficient lash at all Traditions , by reason of this in the next words . Hoc quia de Scripturis non habet auctoritatem , eâdem facilitate contemnitur , quâ probatur . Which having no Authority from the Scriptures , it is as easily contemned as produced . And , think you not then , that S. Hierom was a great friend to your doctrinal Traditions , and unwritten Word ? But , say you still , The Virginity of Mary must be an Article of Faith , because , those who denied it are called Hereticks ; and S. Augustine calls Helvidius his Opinion , blasphemy . But , though Helvidius be listed among the Hereticks , yet , I suppose , you will not say that all who are listed in those Catalogues are defined to be Hereticks by the Catholick Church ? It is very apparent , that any one who seemed to broach any new fancies , and thereby disturbed the Churches Peace , were called Hereticks by them . And Vasquez confesseth that Aquinas calls it an Errour , and not an Heresie in Helvidius . If it were so , he was not the first Authour of it ; for , Tertullian is not only cited by Helvidius for it , and S. Hierom casts away his Testimony , as of a man out of the Church , but Vasquez confesseth he delivers it so often , that Pamelius could make no antidote for those places . One would therefore think , that one so near the Apostles as Tertullian was , might easily have learned such a Tradition , and so great a friend to Virginity as he was ( while a Montanist ) should not have been apt to believe the contrary . That which was accounted Blasphemy in Helvidius , was the rashness of his assertion , which seemed dishonourable to the Blessed Virgin , and not as though he did thereby overthrow any Article of Faith. For the other part of your Tradition , that she was a Virgin in the Birth of Christ , you will find it a greater difficulty to make it out to have been believed as a Tradition , much less as an unwritten Word . For not only Tertullian , but Ignatius , Irenaeus , Origen , Epiphanius , Ambrose , Theophylact oppose you in it ; and judge you then , whether this were owned as a constant Tradition or no. But it is not worth while to insist upon it . Your fourth Instance is , concerning the Rebaptization of Hereticks . Concerning which , two things are to be considered , The Custome it self , and the Right and Law on which that Custome was grounded . In the places by you cited out of S. Austin , it is plain , he speaks of the Custome and Practice of the Church , which ( saith he ) did not use the Iteration of Baptism , which Custome , he believed , did come from Apostolical Tradition ; as many other things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles , nor in following Councils , yet because they are observed by the Vniversal Church , are believed to be delivered , and commended by them . To the same purpose is the other Testimony . But what is this to doctrinal Traditions , concerning matters of Faith ? That there were many Ecclesiastical Customes observed in the Church as Apostolical Traditions , I deny not , but that is not our present Question . If you therefore enquire into that which is only doctrinal in this case concerning the right and lawfulness of Practice in this case , that he fixeth wholly upon the Scriptures . The Practice of the Church in admitting Hereticks without baptizing them again , might be known by Tradition , but whether the Church did well or ill in it , must be by S. Austin's own confession determined out of Scripture . And in that latter place by you cited , there is mentioned no such thing as an unwritten Word , or that the Apostles had left any command that Hereticks should not be baptized again . Nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt Apostoli , are his own words ; there being then neither written nor unwritten Word for it , S. Austin takes the likeliest course he could think of , which was , from the Custome of the Church , to judge most probably what was most agreeable to the Apostles minds . But still , when he comes to urge most home against the Donatists , he makes his recourse to the Scriptures . And offers to prove the matter in dispute from them , and would have all tryed by the ballance of the Lord. And expresly saith , It is against the Lords command , that those who have had lawful Baptism already , should be rebaptized . So that we see , S. Augustine did not himself think it a sufficient proof of Apostolical Tradition , that it was a Custome of the Church , unless he did likewise produce certain evidence out of Scripture for the confirmation of it . Neither then will your fourth Instance prove what it was brought for . Your fifth concerning Infants Baptism , you have given us occasion to consider largely already ; your sixth depends upon that ; your seventh is only a rite of the Church . To your eighth I answer , Though the Tradition of the Church be a great confirmation of the Apostolical Practice in observation of the Lords day , yet that very Practice , and the ground of it , are sufficiently deduced from Scripture . Among all these Instances therefore , we are yet to seek for such a doctrinal Tradition , as makes an unwritten Word . But , methinks an Authour , who would seem so much versed in S. Augustine , might , among all these Instances , have found out one more , which would have looked more like a doctrinal Tradition , than most of these , which is , the necessity of the Eucharist to baptized Infants : The places are so many , and so express in him concerning it , that it would be a needless task to produce them . I shall only therefore referr you to your Espencaeus , who hath made some collection of them . When you have viewed them , I pray bethink your self of some convenient Answer to them , which either must be by asserting , that S. Augustine might be deceived in judging of Doctrinal and Apostolical Traditions ; and then to what purpose are your eight Instances out of him ? Or else that might be accounted an Apostolical Tradition in one age , which may not in another ; and then , since , according to your judgement , the present Church is infallible in every age , that was infallibly an Apostolical Tradition in one age , which infallibly is not so in another . Which leaves us in a greater dispute than ever , what these Apostolical Traditions are , when the Church in several ages doth so much differ concerning them . After you have , in your way , attempted to prove such unwritten Words , or doctrinal Traditions , you fall upon a high charge against his Lordship , and not without a severe reflection on all Protestants , in these words . It is so natural to Protestants to build upon false grounds , that they cannot enter into a Question , without supposing a falshood ; so his Lordship here feeds his humour , and obtrudes many . It is well yet , his Lordship meets with no worse entertainment than all Protestants do : You think all Protestants still build upon false grounds , because not super hanc Petram , and that they still suppose falshoods , because they suppose your Church fallible , whether she undertakes to explain written , or define unwritten Words . But , whether his Lordship feeds his humour in obtruding falshoods , or you yours in calumniating , will appear upon examination . You say , He makes Bellarmine , and all Catholick Doctors , maintain , that whatever they please to call Tradition , must presently be received by all as God's unwritten Word . Upon which you go about to vindicate Bellarmine , by repeating his distinctions concerning Traditions , viz. That some are Divine , others Apostolical , and others Ecclesiastical , and that some belong to Faith , others to Manners . But all this doth not serve your turn . For 1. His Lordship doth not deny , that Bellarmine useth these distinctions , but reduceth all these several Traditions under the same common title de Verbo Dei non scripto ; and that his design therein , is to impose upon unwary Readers , that all the Traditions mentioned by him , are God's unwritten Word . Upon which , his Lordship had good reason to go about to undeceive them , and to make it appear so evidently as he hath done , that Tradition , and God's unwritten Word , are not convertible terms ; both because there may be justly supposed to have been many unwritten Words , which were never delivered over to the Church ; and that there are many things which go for Traditions in your Church , which have no shadow of pretence from an unwritten Word . 2. There may be yet further cunning in all this ; for , although Bellarmine and you distinguish of Traditions , Divine , Apostolical , and Ecclesiastical ; yet when you come to put the difference between these , I suppose you would not leave it to every particular person , to judge which of these Traditions is of these several natures , but the Church must be judge of them . So that a Tradition is Ecclesiastical , when your Church will have it so , that is , when it is disused among you , as the three dippings in Baptism , the participation of Eucharists by Infants , &c. But when any Tradition is still in use by your Church , then your Churches Practice being in this case a sufficient Definition as to all those things so used by your Church , they must be accounted Apostolical , if not Divine . 3. Of what kind or nature soever these Traditions are supposed to be , whether Divine , Apostolical , or Ecclesiastical , prove any of them to contain any thing necessary for Faith and Salvation , and you will then come near an unwritten Word . Your Ecclesiastical Traditions you discard your self from being such , inform us then what Divine and Apostolical Traditions those are which are founded on such an unwritten Word ? Whether any of your Ecclesiastical Traditions contradict God's Word , or no , is not here a place to examine ; we are now enquiring , Whether there be any such thing as an unwritten Word at all , which contains any matter necessary for us to believe , or practise . The only pretence you have here for it , is , That we believe by Divine Faith , that Scripture is God's VVord , and that there is no other VVord of God to assure us of this Point , but the Tradition delivered to us by the Church , and that such Tradition so delivered , must be the unwritten VVord of God. How far we are to believe Scriptures to be the VVord of God , with Divine Faith , will be throughly examined in its due time ; and likewise how far any VVord of God is necessary for the Foundation of this Faith : only I cannot here but take notice , what it is which makes a Tradition be the unwritten VVord of God ; and what becomes then of your former distinction concerning Traditions ? for we see , that which makes them the VVord of God , is their being delivered by the Church ; so that let their Authour , Nature , or Matter be what it will , according to this Principle any Tradition being delivered by your Church , becomes an unwritten VVord . So I come to the second Proposition . 2. That the ground of believing any unwritten word , is the Infallibility of your Church defining it to be so . For you say , As the Church was Infallible in defining what was written , so is she also infallible in defining what was not written . And so she can neither tradere non traditum , nor can she be unfaithful to God , in not faithfully keeping the depositum committed to her trust : Neither can her Sons ever justly accuse her of the contrary , but are bound to believe her Tradition , because she being infallible , the Tradition she delivers can never be against the Word of their Father . The substance of all which , is that which I laid down as your Proposition , That the ground of believing any Tradition to be Apostolical , or any unwritten word is your Churches Infallibility in defining it to be so . Which being built on a Principle , I have already manifested to be so fallacious and uncertain , I might , without further trouble , quit my hands of it : but I shall , however , shew how inconsistent this is with the Rules of the Ancients , for discerning when Traditions are Apostolical , and when not . The great Rule we meet with among the Ancients for judging Apostolical Traditions , is that of Vincentius Lyrinensis , In ipsâ item Catholicâ Ecclesiâ magnoperè curandum est , ut id teneamus , quod ubique , quod semper , quod ab omnibus creditum est : hoc est enim verè proprieque Catholicum . If this be a certain Rule to judge of Catholick and Apostolical Traditions by , viz. That which hath been held every where , alwaies , and by all ; then the judgement of your Church cannot be the infallible definer of Apostolical Traditions , unless you will suppose that your Church only can tell us , what was held every where , alwaies , and by all : And if your Church alone can infallibly determine what Traditions are Apostolical , to what purpose should we be put to such a VVild-goose chase , to enquire Vniversality , Antiquity , and Consent in all things which pretend to be Traditions . But to any reasonable man , as to any thing which pretends to be a matter necessary to be believed or practised , which is not expresly revealed in Scripture ; this Rule of Vincentius seems very just and equitable , that before we believe it necessary , it be made appear , that it was universally believed by Christians to be so , and that in all ages . And I assure you , I am so far convinced of the reasonableness of this proposal , that if you will make out any of those things controverted between us , such as Invocation of Saints , VVorship of Images , Transubstantiation , Adoration of the Eucharist , Purgatory , Indulgences , the Pope's Supremacy , &c. by these Rules , and make it appear to me , that these were held by all Christian Churches , at all times , or have Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent ; I shall be very inclinable to embrace what your Church would impose upon me . But when I know how impossible a task this is , I do not at all wonder that you should quit this formerly magnified saying of Vincentius , and resolve all into the Infallibility of the present Church . But hereby we see , how far you are from the judgement of Antiquity , as to this very point of the tryal of doctrinal Traditions , since you can see no security any where but in your selves , and your Churches Infallibility ; I will therefore reduce the Controversie yet shorter : prove but this Infallibility of your Church in defining the written and unwritten VVord by these Rules of Vincentius , Vniversality , Antiquity and Consent , and I will yield you all the rest . But what unreasonable men are you , if you must be Parties and Judges too ; or if we must believe an unwritten VVord , because your Church is infallible ; and believe your Church infallible , because that is an unwritten VVord . And well may you call it so ; for , search the whole Book of Scriptures , and all the Records of the Primitive Church , and you find nothing at all of it . We see plainly then , you are resolved to be tryed by none but your selves , and so you are Catholicks , because you say , You are so ; and , your Church infallible , because she pretends to be so . 3. That our belief of the Scriptures must be resolved into an unwritten VVord , which is defined by your Church to be such . This is that , for whose sake all your other discourse is brought in , and is the main thing to the purpose : Although you pretend likewise to a power in your Church , to declare what Christ said when he held his peace . ( But , Are you sure your Church will be infallible in that too ? ) For when his Lordship had said , That where-ever Christ held his peace , and that his words are not registred , no man may dare without rashness , to say , They were these or these : You very gravely add , That his Lordship must give you leave to tell him , you must bind up his whole assertion with this Proviso , but according as the Church shall declare . Your Church then must declare when Christ held his peace , and when he did not ; when he spake so , that others might hear him , and when he did not ; when any thing was taken notice of that he said , and when not . But when it is apparent Christ both spake , and did much more than ever was written , how well doth your Church acquit her Office in being Christ's Remembrancer ? And therefore I believe your Church will be guilty of the same rashness with any private person in , S. Augustine's Opinion , In offering to determine what Christ said ▪ when either he held his peace , or his words are not registred . As for those things which you mention for Traditions , not contrary to God's written Word , which yet are not an unwritten Word , such as the Ceremonies of Baptism by you mentioned , they are therefore not pertinent to our purpose , because they are only rites and ceremonies , and our discourse is about doctrinal Traditions ; neither yet if I would spend time in the enquiry , could you derive them from Apostolical Tradition , notwithstanding what either you , or Bellarmine say . But the substance of all you have to say , pertinent to your purpose , is , That though every Tradition be not God's unwritten VVord , yet it being necessary for us to believe the Scripture to be the VVord of God , we must believe it either for some word written or unwritten , or we shall have no Divine Faith at all of the Point , because all Divine Faith must rely upon some VVord of God. This being a great novelty with you , that is , something like Argumentation , it obliges me to take a little more particular notice of it . Any one that considers the force of this Argument , will find , that it lyes wholly upon your notion of Divine Faith : for it appearing unreasonable to you , that our belief that the Scripture is the Word , should be resolved into the written Word it self ; therefore you find out an unwritten VVord of God for a Divine Faith to fix it self upon , which can be nothing but some VVord of God. To this therefore I answer , that when you say , It is necessary we must believe the Scriptures to be the VVord of God with Divine Faith , this Divine Faith must be taken in one of these three senses ; either first , that Faith may be said to be Divine , which hath a Divine Revelation for its Material Object , as , that Faith may be said to be a Humane Faith , which is conversant about natural causes , and the effects of them : And in this sense it cannot but be a Divine Faith , which is conversant about the Scripture , because it is a Divine Revelation : Or secondly , a Faith may be said to be Divine , in regard of its Testimony , or Formal Object ; and so that is called a Divine Faith , which is built on a Divine Testimony , and that a Humane Faith which is built on a Humane Testimony : Thus I assert , all that Faith which respects particular Objects of Faith , supposing the belief of the Scriptures , is in this sense Divine , because it is built on a properly Divine Testimony ; but the Question is , Whether that Act of Faith which hath the whole Scripture as its Material Object , be in that sense Divine or no. Thirdly , Faith may be said to be Divine , in regard of the Divine Effects it hath upon the soul of man ; as it is said in Scripture , to purifie the heart , overcome the world , resist Satan , and his Temptations , receive Christ , &c. And this is properly a Divine Faith ; and there is no Question , but every Christian ought to have this Divine Faith in his soul , without which the other sorts of Divine Faith will never bring men to Heaven . But it is apparent , that all who heartily profess to believe the Scriptures to be the VVord of God , have not this sort of Divine Faith , though they have so firm an assent to the Truth and Authority of it , that they durst lay down their lives for it . The Assent therefore , we see , may be firm , where the effects are not saving : The Question now is , Whether this may be called a Divine Faith in the second sense , that is , Whether it must be built on a Testimony infallible ? For clearing which , we must further consider the meaning of this Question , How we know Scripture to be Scripture ? which may import two things , How we know that all these Books contain God's VVord in them ? Or secondly , How we know the Doctrine contained in these Books to be Divine ? If you then ask me , Whether it be necessary that I believe with such a Faith as is built on Divine Testimony , that these Books called the Scripture , contain the principles of the Jewish and Christian Religion in them ( which we call God's VVord ) I deny it , and shall do so , till you shew me some further necessity of it than you have done yet ; and my reason is , because I may have sufficient ground for such an Assent , without any Divine Testimony . But , if you ask me , On what ground I believe the Doctrine to be Divine , which is contained in those Books ; I then answer affirmatively , On a Divine Testimony ; because God hath given abundant evidence , that this Doctrine was of Divine Revelation . Thus you see , what little reason you have to triumph in your Argument from Divine Faith , inferring the necessity of an unwritten VVord of God. But , the further explication of these things must be reserved , till I come to the positive part of our way of resolution of Faith. I now return . Having , after your way ( that is , very unsatisfactorily ) attempted the vindicating your resolution of Faith , from the Objections which were offered against it by his Lordship ; you come now to consider the second way propounded by him for the resolving Faith , which is , That Scripture should be fully and sufficiently known , as by divine and infallible Testimony , by the resplendency of that light which it hath in it self only , and by the witness it can so give to it self ; against which he gives such evident reasons , that you acknowledge the Relator himself hath sufficiently confuted it , and you agree with him in the Confutation . Yet herein you grow very angry with him , for saying , That this Doctrine may agree well enough with your grounds , in regard you hold , that Tradition may be known for God's VVord by its own light , and consequently the like may be said of Scripture . This you call aspersing you , and obtruding falshoods upon you . Whether it be so or no , must appear upon examination . Two Testimonies are cited from A. C. to this purpose , the first is , Tradition of the Church is of a Company , which by its own light , shews it self to be infallibly assisted . Your Answer is , That the word [ which ] must properly relate to the preceding word Company , and not to the more remote word Tradition . But what of all this ? Doth any thing the less follow , which the Bishop charged A. C. with ? For it being granted by you , That there can be no knowing an Apostolical Tradition , but for the Infallibility of the present Church ; the same light which discovers the Infallibility of that Company , doth likewise discover the Truth of Tradition . If therefore your Church doth appear infallible by its own light , which is your own confession , May not the Scripture as well appear infallible by its own light . For is there not as great self-evidence , at least , that the Scripture is infallible , as that your Church is infallible ? And therefore that way you take to shift the Objection , makes it return upon you with greater force : For , I pray tell me , how any Company can appear by its own Light to be assisted by the Holy Ghost , and not much more the Holy Scripture to be divine ? Especially seeing you must at last be forced to derive this Infallibility from the Scriptures . For , you pretend to no other Infallibility , than what comes by a promise of the immediate assistance of the Holy Ghost . How then can any Company appear by its own Light , to be thus infallibly assisted , unless it first appear by its own Light , that there was such a Promise ? and how can that , unless it antecedently appear by its own Light , that the Scripture , in which the Promise is written , is the VVord of God ? You tell us , A. C ' s. intention is only to affirm , That the Church is known by her Motives of Credibility , which ever accompany her , and may very properly be called her own Light. How well you are acquainted with A. C ' s. intention , I know not , neither is it much matter : for , granting this to have been his intention , may not the Scripture be known by her Motives of Credibility , as well as the Church ? and do not these accompany her , as much as the Church ? and may they not be called her Light , as properly as those of the Church ? It is plain then , by all the senses and meanings you can find out , in the very same , that you say the Church may be known by her own Light , the Scripture may much more ; and therefore you have no reason to quarrel with his Lordship or affirming it . The second Testimony produced , is , That a Tradition may be known to be such by the Light it hath in it self ; in which ( you say ) you find not one word , of Tradition being known by its own Light. But , who are so blind as those who will not see ? I pray , what difference is there between a Tradition being known to be such by its own Light , and a Tradition being known by its own Light ? Yes , say you , known to be such , implies , that is , to be God's unwritten Word ; but are not doctrinal Traditions , and an unwritten Word , with you the same thing ? Can therefore a Tradition be known to be an unwritten Word by its own Light , and not be known to be a Tradition by its own Light ? Nay , How can it possibly be known to be an unwritten Word , unless it first appears to be a Tradition ? for Tradition containing under it both those that are unwritten Words , and those that are not ; it must , in order of nature , be known to be a Tradition , before it can be known to be the other : As I must first know you to be a living Creature , before I can know you to be a reasonable Creature ; and , I may much sooner know the one than the other . You do therefore very well when you have given us such occasion for sport to give us leave to laugh at it , as you do in your next words . But before you leave this point you have some graver matter to take notice of , which is , that you desire the reader to consider what the Relator grants , viz. That the Church now admits of St. James and St. Judes Epistles , and the Apocalypse , which were not received for diverse years , after the rest of the New Testament . From which you wisely inferr , That if some Books are now to be admitted for Canonical which were not alwayes acknowledged to be such , then upon the same authority some Books may now be received into the Canon , which were not so in Ruffinus his time . And therefore the Bishop doth elsewhere unjustly charge the Church of Rome , that it had erred in receiving more Books into the Canon , then were received in Ruffinus his time . To which I Answer . 1. By your own confession then , the Church of Rome doth now receive into the Canon more Books then she did in Ruffinus his time ; from whence I enquire , whether the present Church of Rome were Infallible in Ruffinus his time in determining the Canon of the Scripture ? If not , then the present Church is no Infallible propounder of the Word of God , and then all your discourse comes to nothing . If she were Infallible then , she cannot be now , for now she determins otherwise as to a main point of Faith than she did then ; unless you will say , your Church can be Infallible in determining both parts of a contradiction to be true . 2. Is the integrity of the Canon of Scripture an Apostolical tradition or no ? I doubt not , but you will say , It is ; if so , Whether were these Books which you admit now and were not admitted then , known to be of the Canon by this Apostolical tradition ? If not , by what right come they now to be of the Canon ? if so , then was not your Church in Ruffinus's time , much to seek for her Infallibility , in defining what was Apostolical tradition , and what not ? 3. Your main principle on which the lawfulness of adding more books to the Canon of the Scripture is built , is , That it is in the power of your Church judicially and authoritatively to determine what books belong to the Canon of the Scripture , and what not , which I utterly deny . For it is impossible that your Church , or any in the world , can by any definition make that Book to be Divine , which was not so before such a definition : For the Divinity of the Book doth meerly arise from Divine revelation . Can your Church then make that to be a Divine revelation , which was not so ? All that any Church in the world can do in this case , is , not to constitute any new Canon , which were to make Books Divine which were not so , but to use its utmost diligence and care in searching into the authenticalness of those Copy's which have any pretence to be of the Canon , and whether they did originally proceed from such persons , as we have reason to believe had an immediate assistance of the Holy Ghost ; and , according to the evidence they find , the Church may declare and give in her verdict . For the Church in this case is but a Jury of grand Inquest to search into matters of Fact , and not a Judge upon the Bench to determine in point of Law. And that is the true reason , why the Books of the New Testament were gradually received into the Canon , and some a great while after others , as St. James , St. Jude , the Epistle to the Hebrews , and the Apocalypse ; because at first , the Copyes being not so publickly dispersed , there was not that occasion ministred to the Church for examination of them ; upon which , when by degrees they came to be more publick , it caused scruples in many concerning them , because they appeared no sooner : especially if any passages in them seemed to gratifie any of the Sects then appearing ; as the Epistle to the Hebrews , the Novatians ; and the Apocalypse , the Millenary's : But when upon a through search and examination of all circumstances , it did appear that these Copyes were authentical , and did originally proceed from Divine Persons , then they came to be admitted and owned for such by the Vniversal Church , which we call being admitted into the Canon of the Scripture . Which I take to be the only true and just account of that which is called the constituting the Canon of Scripture , not as though either the Apostles met to do it , or St. John intended any such thing by those words in the end of the Apocalypse ( for that Book being as much lyable to question as any , how could that seal the Canon for all the rest ) much less , that it was in the power of any Church or Council , and least of all of the Pope , to determine what was Canonical , and what not : but only that the Church upon examination and enquiry , did by her Universal reception of these Books , declare it self satisfied with the evidence which was produced , that those were true and authentick Copyes which were abroad under such names or titles , and that there was great reason to believe by a continued tradition from the age and time these Books were written in , that they were written by such persons , who were not only free from any design of imposture , but gave the greatest Rational evidence , that they had a more special and immediate assistance of Gods Spirit . You see then , to how little advantage to your Cause you made this digression . As to the third way propounded for resolving the Question , How we know the Scriptures to be the Word of God , viz. by the testimony of the Holy Ghost ; three things you object against the Bishops discourse about it ; First , that his discourse is roving and uncertain . 2. That notwithstanding his brags he must have recourse to a private spirit himself . 3. That though the Bishop would seem to deny it , diverse eminent Protestants do resolve their Faith into the private spirit . This being the substance of what you say , I shall return a particular Answer to each of them . For the first you tell us , He delivers himself in such a roving way of discourse , as signifies nothing in effect as to what he would drive at . No ? that is strange , when that which his Lordship drives at , is , to shew how far this opinion is to be allowed and how far not , which he is so far from roving in , that he clearly and distinctly propounds the state of the question and the resolution of it : which in short is this , If by the testimony of the spirit be meant any special revelation of a new object of Faith , then he denies the truth of it at least in an ordinary way , both because God never sends us to look for such a testimony , and because it would expose men to the danger of Enthusiasms : but if by the testimony of the Spirit be meant the habit or the act of Divine infused Faith , by vertue of which they believe the object which appears credible , then he grants the truth but denyes the pertinency of it , because it is quite out of the state of the question , which inquires only after a sufficient means to make this object credible , against all impeachment of folly and temerity in believing , whether men do actually believe or not . And withal adds , that the question is of such outward and evident means , as other men may take notice of , as well as our selves . Judge you now , whether this may be called roving ; if it be so , I can freely excuse you from it in all the discourses I have met with in your Book , who abhorre nothing more then a true stating , and methodical handling any question . But yet ( say you ) the Bishop cannot free himself from that imputation of recurring to the private Spirit , against any that should press the business home . Sure you refer us here to some one else who is able to press a business home , for you never attempt it your self ; and instead of that , only produce a large testimony out of A. C. That he did not acquit the Bishop wholly of this . Whether he did or no is to little purpose , and yet those very words which his Lordship cites , are in your testimony produced out of him . Only what you add more from him , that he must be driven to it ; that his Lordship denies , and neither A. C. or you have been able to prove it . But though the Bishop seems not only to deny any such private revelation himself , but will not confess that any Protestants hold it ; yet ( you say ) there can be no doubt in this , since Calvin and Whitaker do both so expresly own it . But according to those principles laid down before , both these testimonies are easily answered . For , 1. Neither of them doth imply any private revelation of any new object , but only a particular application of the evidence appearing in Scripture to the conscience of every Believer . 2. That these testimonies do not speak of the external evidence which others are capable of , but of the internal satisfaction of every ones conscience . Therefore Calvin saith , Si conscientiis optimè consultum volumus , &c. if we will satisfie our own consciences ; not , If we will undertake to give a sufficient reason to others of our Faith. So Whitaker , Esse enim dicimus certius & illustrius testimonium quo nobis persuadeatur hos libros esse sacros , &c. There is a more certain and noble testimony by which we may be perswaded that these Books are sacred , viz. that of the Holy Ghost . 3. Neither of these testimonies affirm any more , than the more judicious Writers among your selves do . Your Canus asserts the necessity of an internal efficient cause , by special assistance of the Spirit moving us to believe , besides and beyond all humane authorities and motives , which of themselves are not sufficient to beget Faith , and this ( a little after ) he calls , Divinum quoddam lume● incitans ad credendum , A divine light moving us to believe ; and again , Interius lumen infusum à Spirit● Sancto , An inward light infused by the Spirit of God. There is nothing in the sayings of the most rigid Protestants is more hard to explain or vindicate from a private revelation then this is : if , as you say , one would press it home . Nay hath not your own Stapleton , Calvins very phrase of the necessity of the secret testimony of the Spirit that one believe the testimony and judgement of the Church concerning Scripture . And is there not then as much danger of Enthusiasm in believing the Testimony of your Church , as in believing the Scriptures ? Nay , doth not your Gregory de Valentiâ rather go higher then the testimonies by you produced out of Calvin and Whitaker on this very subject , in the beginning of his discourse of the resolution of Faith. It is God himself , saith he , in the first place , which must convince and perswade the minds of men of the truth of the Christian Doctrine , and consequently of the Sacred Scriptures , by some inward instinct and impulse ; as it appears from Scripture it self , & is fully explained by Prosper . If you will then undertake to clear this inward instinct and impulse upon the minds of men , whereby they are perswaded of the truth of Christianity and Scripture , from Enthusiasm and a private spirit you may as easily do it for the utmost which is said by Calvin , or Whitaker , or any other Protestant Divine . This therefore is only an argument of your desire to cavil , and as such I will pass it over . For what concerns the influence which the Spirit hath in the resolution of Faith , it will be enquired into afterwards . The last way mentioned in order to the resolution of Faith , is , that of Reason , which ( his Lordship saith ) cannot be denyed to have some place to come in , and prove what it can . According to which ( he tells us ) no man can be hindred from weighing the tradition of the Church , the inward motives in Scripture it self , all testimonies within , which seem to bear witness to it ; and in all this ( saith he ) there is no harm : the danger is , when a man will use no other scale but reason , or prefer reason before any other scale . Reason then , can give no supernatural ground into which a man may resolve his Faith , that the Scripture is the word of God infallibly ; yet Reason can go so high , as it can prove that Christian Religion , which rests upon the authority of this Book , stands upon surer grounds of nature , reason , common equity , and justice , then any thing in the world , which any Infidel , or meer naturalist , hath done , doth , or can adhere unto , against it , in that which he makes , accounts , or assumes as Religion to himself . This is the substance of his Lordships discourse about the use of Reason ; in which we observe , 1. That he doth not make reason a means sufficient to ground an infallible belief , that Scripture is the Word of God. And therefore you are guilty of notorious oscitancy , or willful calumny , in telling us , That natural reason is introduced by the Bishop for that end . By which we may guess at the truth of what you say at the end of your interlocutory discourse between the Bishop and the Heathen , that you have not wronged him , by either falsly imposing on him , or dissembling the force of his arguments , wherein you are so guilty , that the only extenuation of your crime had been , never to have professed the contrary . For you give us a hopeful specimen of your fair dealings at your entrance on this subject . 2. Though reason cannot give a supernatural ground whereby to resolve Faith as to the Scriptures being Gods Word Infallibly ; yet reason may abundantly prove to any one who questions it , the truth and reasonableness of Christian Religion . By which if you please , you may take notice of a double resolution of Faith : the one is , into the truth and reasonableness of the Doctrine of Christianity considered in it self ; and the other is , into the Infallible means of the conveyance of that Doctrine to us , which is the Scripture . When therefore his Lordship offers to deal with a Heathen , he doth not as you , either sillily or wilfully , would make him say , That he would prove Infallibly to him , that the Bible is Gods Word , but that Christian Religion hath so much the advantage above all others , as to make it appear , that it stands upon surer grounds of nature , reason , common equity and justice , then any thing in the world , which any one who questions it doth adhere unto . Which I think is a thing that no one , who understands Christian Religion , would be afraid to undertake against any Infidel of what sort or nature soever . These things being premised , your grand piece of Sophistry in the dispute between the Heathen and the Bishop , whom you so solemnly introduce at a Conference about Religion , doth evidently discover it self . Wherein , you bring in your learned Heathen , as one desiring satisfaction in matter of Religion ; but being not verst in Christian Principles , desires to be satisfied by the evidence of natural reason ; which when the Bishop hath condescended to ; your very next thing is , that your Heathen understands by his Lordships Book , that the sole foundation of our Faith is a Book called the Bible ; which saith he , you tell me must be believed Infallibly with every part and parcel in it , to be the undoubted Word of the true God , before I can believe any other point of Religion as it ought to be believed . As to which , your Heathen sees no ground to assent that it is Gods Word . But by this way of management of your dispute , we may easily discern which way the issue of it is like to go . Doth his Lordship any where undertake to prove this in the first place Infallibly to a Heathen , That the Bible must be Infallibly believed to be Gods Word ? No , he offers to prove , first , the excellency and the reasonableness of the Christian Religion considered in its self . From whence you might easily conceive how the dispute ought to be managed ; shewing first , that the precepts of Christianity are highly just and reasonable , the Promises of it such as may induce any reasonable man to the practice of those Precepts ; and that the whole Doctrine is such , as may appear to any considerative person to have been very wisely contrived : That there is nothing vain or impertinent in it , but that it is designed for great and excellent purposes , the bringing men off from the love of sin , to the love of God ; that it is impossible to imagine any Doctrine to be contrived with more advantage for promoting these ends , because it represents to us the highest expressions of the Kindness and Goodness of God to man , and that the Promises made by God were confirmed to the world by the death of his only Son ; That since mens natures are now so degenerate , God hath made a tender of Grace , and divine assistance , whereby to enable men to perform the excellent duties of this Religion . That those things which seem most hard to believe in this Doctrine , are not such things as might have been spared out of it ( as though God did intend only to puzzle mens reason with them ) but they are such mysteries , as it is impossible the wit of man can conceive they should have been discovered upon better reasons , or for more excellent ends ; as , that a Virgin should conceive by the immediate power of God , to bring him into the world , who should be the Saviour of it ; That there should be a resurrection of bodies , in order to a compleat felicity of them who obey this Doctrine ; and so for others of a like nature : that supposing it possible such things should be , it is impossible to conceive they should be done upon better grounds , or for better purposes than they are in Christian Religion . This being now a short draught or Idea of Christianity , is the first thing which I suppose any learned or inquisitive Heathen or Infidel should be acquainted with ; if he finds fault with this , let him in any thing shew the incongruity or unreasonableness of it . If he acknowledge this model of the Doctrine reasonable , his next scruple is , Whether this be truly the Model of it or no ; for that end I tell him , We have a Book among us , which is , and ever hath been , by Christians , taken for granted , to comprize in it the Principles of Christian Religion ; I bid him take it , and read it seriously , and see if that which I have given him as the Idea of Christian Doctrine , do not perfectly agree with that Book . I do not bid him presently absolutely and infallibly believe this Book to be God's VVord , which is a very preposterous way of proceeding ; but only compare the Doctrine with the Book , as he would do a body of Civil Law , with the Institutes of it ; or the Principles of any Science , with the most approved Authors of it . If after this search , he be satisfied , that the representation I gave him of Christian Religion , agrees with those Books we call the Bible ; he yet further adds , that he acknowledges the Principles of our Religion to be reasonable ; but desires to be satisfied of the Truth of them ; I must further enquire , Whether he doth believe any thing else to be in the world , besides what he hath seen and heard himself ? I may justly suppose his Answer affirmative ; I then demand upon what grounds ? A. Vpon the certain report of honest men , who have seen and heard other things than ever he did . But why do you think honest mens reports to be credible in such cases ? A. Because , I see , they have no design or interest to deceive me in it . Will you then believe the report of such men , whom , I can make it appear , could have no interest in deceiving you ? A. I can see no reason to the contrary . Will you then believe such men , who lost their lives to make it appear , that their Testimony was true ? A. Yes . Will you believe such things , wherein persons of several Ages , Professions , Nations , Religions , Interests , are all agreed that they were so ? A. Yes , if it be only to believe a matter of fact on their Testimony ; I can see no ground to question it . That is all I desire of you , and therefore you must believe that there was in the world such a person as Jesus Christ , who dyed , and rose again ; and , while he lived , wrought great miracles to confirm his Doctrine with ; and that he sent out Apostles to preach this Doctrine in the world , who likewise did work many miracles , and that some of these persons the better to preserve and convey this Doctrine , did write the substance of all that Christ either did , or spake , and withall penned several Epistles to those Churches which were planted by them . These are all matters of fact , and therefore on your former Principle you are to believe them . There are then but two Scruples left , Supposing all this true , yet this doth not prove the Doctrine Divine ; nor the Scriptures , which convey it , to be infallible . To which I answer , 1. Can you question , Whether that Doctrine be Divine , when the person who declared it to the world , was so divine and extraordinary a person , not only in his conversation , but in those frequent and unparalleld Miracles which he wrought in the sight and face of his enemies , who , after his death , did rise again , and converse with his Disciples , who gave evidence of their fidelity in the Testimony they gave of it , by laying down their lives to attest the Truth of it ? Again , Can you question the Divinity of that Doctrine , which tended so apparently to the destruction of sin and wickedness , and the power of the evil Spirit in the world ? For , we cannot think he would quit his possession willingly out of the bodies and souls of men ; that therefore which threw him out of both , must be , not only a Doctrine directly contrary to his interest , but infinitely exceeding him in power : And that can be no less than Divine . But still , you will say , Is it not , besides all this , necessary to believe these very Books , you call the Scripture , to be divinely inspired ; and how should I know that ? To that I answer , 1. That which God chiefly requires from you , is , the belief of the Truth and Divinity of the Doctrine ; for that is the Faith which will bring you to obedience , which is the thing God aims at . 2. If you believe the Doctrine to be True and Divine , you cannot reasonably question the Infallibility of the Scriptures . For , in that you read , that not only Christ did miracles , but his Apostles too ; and therefore their Testimony , whether writing or speaking was equally infallible ; all that you want evidence for , is , that such persons writ these Books , and that being a matter of fact , was sufficiently proved and acknowledged before . Thus you see , if we take a right method , and not jumble things confusedly together , as you do , what a satisfactory account may be given to any inquisitive person ; first , of the Reasonableness ; next , of the Truth ; and lastly , of the Divinity , both of the Doctrine , and the Books containing it , which we call the Scripture . Let us now again see , How you make the Bishop and Heathen dispute . The substance of which , is , That you make your Heathen desire no less than infallible evidence that the Bible is God's VVord by conviction of natural reason ; whereas his Lordship attempts only to make the Authority of Scriptures appear by such Arguments , as unbelievers themselves could not but think reasonable , if they weighed them with indifferency . For , though , saith he , this Truth , That Scripture is the VVord of God , is not so demonstratively evident à priori , as to inforce assent , yet it is strengthened so abundantly with probable Arguments , both from the Light of Nature it self , and Humane Testimony , that he must be very wilful and self-conceited , that shall dare to suspect it . And sure any reasonable man in the world would think it sufficient to deal with an adversary upon such terms . But , saies your Heathen , A man cannot be infallibly certain of what is strengthened with but probable Arguments , since that which is but probably true , may also be said to be but probably false . Which being a thing so often objected against us by your party , must be somewhat further explained . How far Infallibility may be admitted in our belief , may partly be perceived by what hath been said already , and what shall be said more afterwards . That there is , and ought to be the highest degree of actual Certainty ; I assert as much as you : But , say you , The very Arguments being but probable , destroy it : To which I answer , by explaining the meaning of probable Arguments , in this case ; whereby are not understood such kind of Probabilities , which cannot raise a firm Assent , in which sense we say , That which is probable to be , is probable not to be ; but by Probabilities are only meant such kind of rational Evidence , which may yield a sufficient foundation for a firm Assent , but yet notwithstanding , which an obstinate person may deny Assent . As for Instance , if you were to dispute with an Atheist concerning the Existence of a Deity , which he denies , and should proceed with you just as your Heathen doth with the Bishop . Sir , All that Religion you talk of , is built only upon the belief of a God , but I cannot be infallibly convinced by natural reason , that there is such a one . You presently tell him , that there is so much evidence for a Deity , from the works of nature , the consent of all people , &c. that he can have no reason to question it . But still he replies , None of these are demonstrations , for notwithstanding I have considered these , I believe the contrary ; but demonstrations would make me infallibly certain ; these then are no more but probable Arguments , and therefore since it is but probably true , it may be probably false . How then will you satisfie such a person ? Can you do it any otherwise , than by saying , that we have as great Evidence as the nature of the thing will bear , and it is unreasonable to require more ? Unless you will tell him , it is to no purpose to believe a God , unless he believe it infallibly ; and there being no infallible Arguments in nature , he must believe it on the Infallibility of your Church . And do you not think , this were an excellent way to confute Atheists ? But when we speak of probable Arguments , we mean not such as are apt to leave the mind in suspence , whether the thing be true or no ; but only such as are not proper and rigid demonstrations , or infallible Testimony , but the highest Evidence which the nature of the thing will bear , and therefore may cause an undoubted Certainty of Assent . As it is in all matters of fact ; for , Will you say , that it is as probable , that there is not such a place as Rome , as that there is , because the only Argument you have to be convinced of it , is but in it self a probability , which is the fame and report of people . It is a piece therefore of great weakness of judgement , to say , That there can be no certain Assent , where there is a meer possibility of being deceived . For there is no kind of Assent in the humane understanding , as to the existence of any thing , but there is a possibility of deception in it . Will you say , because it is possible all mens senses may deceive them , therefore there can be no certainty of any object of sense ? And , as well may you say it , as destroy any certainty of Assent in Religion , where you suppose a possibility of being deceived . But , if I be not much deceived ( though I suppose you will account it a grand Paradox ) an Assent may be as firm and certain upon moral grounds , as upon a demonstration , that is , when the matter is capable of no more than moral grounds . For , the reason why we suspend Assent , is the unproportionateness of the evidence to the matter to be proved : So , when the matter is capable of more evidence than is produced , and I know it to be so , my understanding cannot firmly assent on such evidence ; but when the matter is capable of no more than moral evidence , and I know it , I may as firmly assent to the Truth of such a thing , as to the Truth of a clearer thing , upon clearer evidence . Thus I may as firmly assent , that there are such places as the East and West-Indies , upon the constant report of men , as that the three angles of a triangle , are equal to two right angles : I say not , the evidence is the same , but that the Assent may be as firm . You cannot then destroy the certainty of Assent , which is required to Christian Religion , by telling men , that the Arguments they rely on , are but moral Arguments : And by this , you may see , there may be a degree far beyond probability in the Assent , where the Arguments in themselves considered , may be called probable ; or rather , that Moral certainty may be a most firm , rational , and undoubted certainty . Your following discourse between the Bishop and Heathen , run upon the former mistake , as though his intention were to prove first the Bible to be God's Infallible Word , before he would prove Christian Religion to be true , which I have already shewed you , is a mistake , which appears sufficiently by his own words , of proving the Christian Religion to stand upon surer grounds than any other Religion ; not only than that one which the Heathen believed , but any other in the world : and therefore your Objection is answered , that for all this , a third Religion may be truer than both . Your remaining discourse proves nothing at all , but on the former Supposition ; and therefore , supposing his intention be to prove Christianity to be True and Divine , his Argument from the power of it over the Devil , follows plainly enough . And when he mentions the evidence of it out of Scripture , he doth not suppose the belief of it as an infallible Word of God , but only as of any other history , and therefore is far from such a petitio principii , as you imagine . That which the Bishop saith , may reasonably be supposed , as a Principle in Divinity ( as there are postulata in other Sciences ) is not the Infallibility of the Doctrine , or Revelation , but the Credibility of both , in order to further Conviction concerning their Infallibility ; for , unless the Credibility of it be first assumed as a Principle , men will not use the means in order to conviction of its Infallibility . And in this sense he doth not contradict himself , nor unsay what he had said before ; and that this was his sense , appears by the last words of that discourse , That a meer natural man may be thus far convinced , that the Text of God is a very credible Text. Thus we see , how much , notwithstanding your protestation to the contrary , You have wronged the Bishop , both by falsly imposing on him , and dissembling the force of his Argument : And how unjust that imputation is , That if his Doctrine had been held in the Primitive Church , it would have laid the world under an impossibility of being converted to Christianity ; whereas I have shewed how consonant his way is , as I explained it , both to reason , and the proceedings of the Primitive Christians in the conversion of learned Heathens . But since , you will needs set the Bishop to convert a learned Heathen , I will see what an excellent faculty you have according to your Principles of satisfying an Atheist , or a Sceptick in Religion , whom , for your sake , I will suppose more desirous of satisfaction , than commonly such persons are . Let us see then how he accosts you . Scept . Sir , I understand by a great Book of yours , that you have only taken the right course to convince such persons as my self , who are a little doubtful concerning the received Principles of Religion in the world ; for the wisest I have conversed with , of those who own those things , do offer only to prove them by Reason and Arguments , which , I understand , you decry , as a way to make all men such as I am : but that you have an excellent recipe for men under my distemper ; for you promise them no less then Infallible certainty in all things you require them to believe , which is a thing I have been so long seeking for , and have yet so unhappily mist of , that I cannot but rejoyce in meeting with such a healing Priest , who offers nothing short of Infallibility in all matters of Religion . T. C. Sir , I question not , but before you and I part , I shall cure those distorted joynts of your mind , and instead of being a Sceptick , make you a sound Catholick . For indeed it is true , what you say , That those who would convince you by reason , do but offer to make you more a Sceptick than you are , at least , you can have no Divine Faith at all upon such principles ; but if you will follow my counsel , I doubt not but to make you Infallibly certain in the things we require you to believe . Scept . I see then there is hope of a cure for me ; but I pray tell me what that is I must be Infallibly certain of , and by what means I shall attain it . I would therefore in the first place be Infallibly certain of the being of God , and the immortality of souls , for these I take to be the principles of all Religion . T. C. You take a wrong method , you should first enquire after the means of this Infallible certainty , for when once you have got that , it will make you Infallibly certain of what ever you desire ; but as long as you use still so much reason , as to demand Infallible certainty in principles before conclusions , there is little hopes of your being a true Roman Catholick . But I must tell you , this is not the way : You must first believe the Church , and then you may believe any thing . Scept . But would you have me attain Infallible certainty , without any reason that is Infallible ? But because you quarrel with my method , I will yield to yours , but let me desire to know first , What those things are which I must believe upon this Infallibility ? and then , Whether nothing short of this Infallible certainty will serve in order to Faith ? for if so , I must confess my self not only a Sceptick but an Infidel . T. C. All objects of Faith must be believed with Infallible certainty , and nothing short of that can be true Faith , for true Divine Faith must rely on Divine Authority , or some Word of God : now because you cannot rely on Gods written Word for the Divine Authority of it self , you must rely on some Divine unwritten Word ; which can be no other but what is delivered by the Infallible Testimony of the present Roman Church . Scept . I was in hopes , you intended my cure , but now I perceive you aim at making me worse ; for I never heard so many things uttered in a breath with so great confidence , and so little shew of reason ; that if I were not a Sceptick already , I should commence one now . You tell me indeed very magisterially , that I cannot believe without Infallibility , because Faith must rely on a Divine Testimony ; this Divine Testimony is not in Scripture ( as you call it ) but in the Infallibility of your present Roman Church ; I find my doubts so increase by this discourse of yours , that they all croud so to get out , I know not how to propose them in order , but as well as I can . You tell me the ground why you require Infallible certainty , is , because Faith must rest on Divine Authority , and that this Authority must be that of your Church , which you say is Infallible : these things therefore I desire of you , first , to shew how your Churches Authority comes to be Divine . 2. How her Testimony comes to be Infallible . 3. How I may be Infallibly certain of this Infallibility . 4. Supposing the Catholick Churches Testimony to be so , how such a Sceptick as I am , should know your Roman Church to be that Catholick Church . T. C. Your first question is , How our Churches Authority comes to be Divine ? I see there is little hopes of doing good on you , that ask such questions as these are ; you ought quietly to submit your Faith to the Church , and heartily believe all these things without questioning them ; for I must tell you , such kind of questions have almost ruined us , and hath made scrupulous men turn Hereticks , and others Atheists : but since I hope your questions may go no further then my answers , nor be any better understood , I must tell you ; That though we say , that it is necessary that Divine Faith must rely on Divine Authority because that seems to promise Infallibility ; yet when we come to our Churches Testimony , we dare not for fear of the Hereticks call it Divine , but Infallible and in a manner , and after a sort Divine , hoping they would never take notice of any Contradiction in it , but still we say , As far as concerns precise Infallibility , it is so truly supernatural and certain , that it comes nothing short of the Divinest Testimony ; but yet this is not Divine , though it be by the Testimony of the Holy Ghost , and yet is no immediate revelation ; but still it is so much , as if the Church should erre , Gods veracity may be called in question assoon as the Churches . Scept . I took you for a Priest before , but now I take you for an absolute conjurer : but I confess , I like this discourse well , for I perceive your Religion is built on such grounds , as you never intend should be understood , wherein I commend your discretion ; for these distinctions will doubtless do your work among silly and ignorant people , which are a great part of mankind and much the greatest of your Church . I am therefore infinitely satisfied with this answer to my first question ; answer but the rest so , and I promise you to be less a Sceptick then ever I was . T. C. to your second , How her Testimony comes to be Infallible ; because I perceive you are an understanding person , I will acquaint you with our way . The Hereticks trouble us with this question above all others : for they presently cry out , If you know the Scripture to be Infallible by the Church , and the Church Infallible by Scripture , we run into a Circle ; and this we know as well as they , but do not think fit to let the people know it , and therefore we tell them of things being known in themselves and to us , between the formal object and the Infallible witness , between the principal cause and a condition prerequisite , between proving of it to Hereticks and to our selves ; but I see some of my brethren of late have been much beholding to some things with vizards upon them called Motives of credibility , and the generality are so frighted with them , that they will rather say they are satisfied then ask any more questions ; but if they do , these do so little in truth belong to our Church , that then we storm , and sweat , and cry out upon them as Atheists , and that it is impossible they should believe any Religion who question them ; and if that doth it not , then we patter over the former distinctions as we do our prayers , and hope they are both in an unknown tongue . Scept . Well , I see you are the man like to give me satisfaction ; I pray to your third question , How I may be Infallibly certain of this Infallibility ? T.C. that is a question never asked by Catholicks , and if we find any propounding it whom we hoped to proselyte , we give them hard words and leave them ; for because we offer to prove our Infallibility by only motives of credibility , they presently ask us , Whether our Infallibility be an Article of Faith ? if it be , then they may believe an Article of Faith without Infallible certainty , and then what need our Churches Infallibility ? and then to what end do we quarrel with their Faith for being built on greater motives of credibility ? which being such untoward questions we see there is no good to be done on them and so leave them : but in our Books we are sure to cry out of the fallibility and uncertainty of the Faith of Protestants , because they acknowledge their Churches not Infallible , and cry up our Church because she pretends to it ; if they ask , How we prove it , we seek to confound the state of the question , and run out into the necessity of an unwritten Word , or bring such motives as hold only for the Primitive and Apostolical Church , and make them serve ours too . If all this will not do , we have other shifts still , but it is not yet fit to discover them . Scept . To your fourth Question ( and then I will tell you my judgement ) How your Church comes to be called or accounted the Catholick Church ? T. C. For this , though it seems strange to the Hereticks , how a part should be called or accountd the whole , yet to all true Catholicks , who must wink hard that they may see the better , we make no great difficulty of it : for we tell them the Pope is Christs Vicar , and it is the head which gives the denomination , and so Catholick is nothing else but a name to denote persons who are in our Church ; and if they question this , they thereby are out of the Church , and so under damnation ; But for the sturdy Hereticks who deride our thunderbolts , we are put to a greater trouble , and are fain to gather all the citations of the Fathers against the poor Donatists and apply them to the Hereticks , and what ever they say belongs to the Catholick Church we confidently arrogate it to our selves , as though our Church now were the same with the Catholick Church then : and chiefly we have the advantage of the Protestants by this , that whatever corruptions they charge us with , they had the good hap to be almost generally received at the time Luther appeared , and upon this we thunder them with the succession and visibility of our Church ; as the Samaritans were much to blame they did not serve the Israelites so , after their return from captivity ; for they had a continual succession in the same place , and a greater visibility than the Israelites under their bondage ; but yet we had the advantage of them by a larger spread , a longer prescription , and a fairer shew . Scept . Sir , I am hugely taken with these discourses of yours , and easily perceive ( whatever they that believe Christian Religion to be true think ) that you are men of wit and parts ; and understand your Interest , I mean your Religion . I understand now throughly , to what intent it is you say , that Those who build their Faith on rational grounds , go about to destroy Religion . I confess , you have taken the only way to reclaim me from any thing of Scepticism . I suppose you understand my meaning , as I do yours . In this discourse I pretend not , as you did , to deliver his Lordships words , and so wrong him by falsly imposing them on him in another sense then he intended them , but collect from your former managery of this Controversie , what your real sense and meaning is , and how excellent a way this is , instead of reclaiming Atheists to make them so . If I have mistaken your meaning , I pray speak more clearly , and then we shall think you mean honestly ; but as long as you walk so much in the dark , you will give us leave to suspect your design is either upon our purses or our Religion . I now return to your Church-tradition . You begin your sixth Section with a fair Supposition and carry it on accordingly , which is of a Child brought up in your Church , who is commanded to believe the Scriptures , and all other Articles of Faith on the Authority of your Church , whom you suppose to dye without once looking into the Scriptures : Your question is , Whether he had saving Faith or no ; if so , then the Churches Authority is a sufficient ground for Infallible Faith ; if not , then he had none at all , and consequently could not be saved . I answer , We pry not into Divine secrets , on which account we dare not pronounce of the final condition of such who through ignorance cannot be acquainted with Gods written Word ; we therefore say , that an hearty assent to the Doctrine of the Gospel is the Faith which God requires , and if this Faith lead men to obedience to Gods will , we assert the sufficiency of it for salvation , and not otherwise ; for Faith is not therefore saving , because built on an Infallible ground , as you fondly seem to imagine ; but when it attains its end , when it brings men to a hearty obedience to the precepts of the Gospel . And if some among you , may believe that which is in it self true , but upon weak and insufficient grounds , as the advantages of education ( which are much rather the foundation of the Faith of such a one as you speak of , then any Infallibility supposed by him in the Church ) yet such and so great is the goodness of God , that if a Faith standing on such grounds do attain its end , that is , make such a one Universally holy , we deny not , but God may accept of it for Salvation . But still we say , such a Faith is so far from being Infallible , that it is not built on any sufficient or satisfactory ground , for the motive of it is that , which may be false as well as true ; for he that assents to any thing on the Authority of any Church , before he doth judge whether her Authority be to be relyed on absolutely or no , may believe a falshood assoon as truth upon that Authority ; and the more he makes this his foundation , the more he is in danger of being deceived . As suppose a Child brought up in Turky and instructed in that Religion ; he is told that he must without examination believe Mahomets Alcoran to be Divine ; and he must neither doubt of this , nor of any other Article of Faith , universally received among Mahumetans : may not such a one as invincibly believe the Authority of the Turkish Church ( if we may call it so ) as your Child doth the Authority of your Church ? Where then lies the difference ? you see plainly , it cannot be in the Motive to Faith , for the Authority is supposed equally Infallible in both ; but it lies in the evidence of truth in one Religion above the other , and this requires something more then the Authority of the Church , viz. judgement and diligent examination . And then Faith is built on a sure ground . Remember then , that we enquire not what abatements God makes for the prejudices of education in believing or not believing any Religion ; nor how God intends to deal with them , who through age or other invincible prejudices are uncapable of judging the evidence of truth in any Religion ; but what are the certain grounds of Faith , which sober and understanding men may and ought to build their belief of true Religion upon . But you proceed , and suppose your young Christian to live , and apply himself to study , and becomes a learned man , and then upon the Churches recommendation betakes himself to the reading the Scriptures , upon which by the light he discovers in it he finds the Faith he had before , was but a humane perswasion and not a Divine Faith , and consequently that he had no saving Faith of any Article of Christian belief , and so was out of the state of Salvation ; from whence ( you say ) will spring gripes and torture of spirit among Christians . And why so ? What , because they discern greater reason to believe then ever they did , must they find gripes and torture of spirit ? I had thought , the more light men had found , i. e. the more reason for believing , the more peace and contentment they had in their minds . And so I verily believe it is : but probably your meaning is , This Doctrine will cause gripes and torture of spirit in those who have no other foundation of Faith , but your Churches authority , and never enquire after more : If it does so , much good may they do them ; and I verily believe , Such doubts may tend more to their satisfaction at last , than their present security ; and a Doctrine which tends to convince the world of the folly and unreasonableness of such a kind of implicite Faith , the unsuitableness of it to the nature of Religion in general , but more especially the Christian ( whose great commendation is , that it puts men upon so much searching and enquiry into the truth of it ) would tend more to the good of the Christian world , than any of those soft and easie principles which you seek to keep men in obedience by , and that I am afraid more to your Church than to Christ. Why then such a Doctrine should cause needless gripes and tortures of spirit , I cannot imagine : it must certainly be a great confirmation to the mind of any good man to see still further reason for his Faith , by which it grows more radicated and confirmed . Or would you have a man disquiet himself , because he is not still a Child ? much such a kind of thing this is , that a mans mind must be tortured , because his Faith grows stronger ; for we assert that there are degrees in Faith ; which you who make all Faith Infallible cannot do , unless you suppose an Infallible thing may grow more Infallible . And if all true Faith be Infallible , how can men pray for the increase of Faith , unless they pray for the increase of their Infallibility ; which is a prayer , I suppose , not many in your Church are allowed to make , for then what becomes of your Popes prerogative , when not only every one among you is supposed to be Infallible , but hopes as well as prayes to be more Infallible , which is more then your Pope or your Church dares pretend to . But whether Doctrine tends more to inward gripes and tortures of spirit , yours or ours , let any reasonable man judge ; for we assert that true Faith is capable of degrees of augmentation , but you assert that there is no Divine Faith but what is Infallible ; when therefore men by reflection upon themselves are so far from finding such an Infallibility in their assent , that they combat with many doubts and fears , as we see the Apostles did even after the resurrection of Christ ; you must pronounce that the Apostles when they questioned Christs resurrection from the dead had no Divine Faith at all : for it is plain they were far from an Infallible assent to it , when Christ upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart , because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen . Were they Infallible in their assent then or no ? I hope you will not contradict it so much as to say so ; or had they no Divine Faith then at all ? what not S. Peter , for whom Christ prayed that his Faith should not fail , and from the indesectibility of whose Faith you derive that of the Pope ( but here you may see what a certain Foundation you have for it , when it is so apparent here , that S. Peter's Faith did fail , and that as to so important an Article of Faith , as Christ's own Resurrection ; for certainly , S. Peter was one of the eleven . ) Nay , Doth not Christ upbraid them for their unbelief , in not believing them that had seen him after he was risen ? We see then , Christ chides them for not resolving their Faith into a humane and moral Testimony : If you had been there , no doubt you must have told him , He was mistaken in the nature of Faith , which could rest on nothing but an infallible Testimony ; and unless he shewed you by sufficient Motives , that those persons who saw him risen , were infallible , for all his haste you were not bound to believe him . But , whether Christ or you be the more infallible , judge you . We see our Blessed Saviour requires no more Assent , than the nature of the thing will bear ; nay , he upbraids those who will not believe upon Moral and Humane Testimony ; but you say just the contrary , as though you were resolved to contradict him : But that is sufficient Argument to all Christians , of the falsity and folly of your Doctrine , which tends to no other end , but to make all considering men Scepticks , or Atheists . For , when you lay it down as a certain Maxim , that no Faith can be Divine , but what is infallible ; and they find no such Infallibility in the grounds or the nature of mens Assent , What then follows , but those worst sort of gripes and tortures , such as argue an inward Convulsion of mind , and bring men to a greater Question , Whether there be any such thing , as that you call true Divine Faith , in the world . You go on with your Catechumen's discourse , who must suppose , Either that the Church taught , that he was to believe Scripture infallible , upon her own infallible Testimony , or not ; If so , then he reflects , that this Church hath plainly deceived him , and all others , who believed upon that Supposition , and so exposed them all to the hazard of eternal damnation ; and therefore was no True Church , but a deceiver . From whence ( say you ) he gathers , that her recommendation of Scripture , is as much as nothing , and so at last , is left to the sole Letter of Scripture , and so must gather from thence its Authority , or there can be no means left him on the Bishop's own Principles , to believe infallibly that Scripture is Divine , and the True Word of God. This discourse of yours consists of three Absurdities , which will follow upon one of your Churches questioning her Infallibity . 1. That then your Church will be guilty of Imposture . 2. Then the Churches Testimony signifies nothing . 3. That then the sole Letter of Scripture must assure men of its Divine Authority . For the first , I must confess him whom before you supposed a Child , to be now grown to years of understanding , since he doth so wisely reflect on himself , as to your Churches gross Imposture , in her pretence of Infallibility ; and , no doubt , it is one of the greatest which hath been known in the Christian world , which you cannot your self deny , supposing that it be not true that she is infallible . For , Can there be any higher cheat in the world , than under a pretence of Infallibility , to impose things upon mens Faith , which are contrary to the Sense and Reason of mankind , to keep them from that inward satisfaction , which their souls might find from a serious consideration of the excellent nature of Christian Religion , and a diligent practice of it , to contradict thereby the very scope of Christianity , which courts our esteem , by offering it self to the fairest tryal ; when , I say , under this pretence Christian Religion is apparently dishonoured , the welfare of mens souls hindered , and the greatest corruptions obtruded , without possibility of amendment of them , excuse your Church from Imposture if you can ; for my part , I cannot , nor any one else who throughly considers it . For the second ; it will follow indeed , that the Testimony of your Church is as much as nothing , as to any infallible Foundation of Faith ; but yet it may be of great use for conveying Vniversal Tradition to us , and so by that delivering the Scripture into our hands , as the infallible Rule of Faith. To the third ; it by no means follows , that there is nothing but the sole Letter of Scripture left to convince us of the Divine Authority of Scripture ; I hope the working Miracles , fulfilling Prophecies , the nature and reasonableness of the Doctrine of Scriptures , are all left besides the bare letter of Scripture ; and these , we say , are sufficient to make us believe , that the Scripture contains the infallible Word of God. Now your profound Christian begins to reflect on the Bishops way , which is ( say you ) That the Testimony of the Church is humane and fallible , and that the belief of the Scripture rests upon the Scripture it self . But , it will be more to our purpose , to hear the Bishop deliver his own mind , than to hear you so lamely deliver it ; which , in short , he summs up thus . A man is probably led by the Authority of the present Church , as by the first informing , inducing , perswading means , to believe the Scripture to be the Word of God : But , when he hath studied , considered , and compared this Word with its self , and with other writings , with the help of ordinary grace , and a mind morally induced , and reasonably perswaded by the voice of the Church , the Scripture then gives greater , and higher Reasons of Credibility to it self , than Tradition alone could give . And then , he that believes , resolves his last and full Assent , that Scripture is of Divine Authority , into internal Arguments found in the Letter it self , though found by the help of Tradition without , and Grace within . This is the substance of his Lordship's Opinion , against which we shall now consider what your Discourser hath to object . 1. The first , is from the case of ignorant and illiterate persons ; such , who either through want of learning could not read the Scripture , and examine , or else made little use of it , because they supposed they might have infallible Faith without it ; What then becomes of millions of such souls , both in former and present times ? To that I answer ; Although the Ignorance and carelesness of men in a matter of so great consequence , be so great in all ages , as is not to be justified , because all men ought to endeavour after the highest waies of satisfaction , in a matter so nearly concerning them ( and it is none of the least things to be blamed in your Church , that she doth so much countenance this ignorance , and neglect of the Scripture ) yet for such persons , who either morally , or invincibly , are hindered from this capacity of examining Scripture , there may be sufficient means for their Faith to be built upon . For , although such illiterate persons cannot themselves see , and read the Scripture , yet , as many as do believe , do receive the Doctrine of it , by that sense by which Faith is conveyed , that is , Hearing ; and by that means they have so great certainty , as excludes all doubting , that such Doctrines , and such matters of fact , are contained in these Books , by which they come to the understanding of the nature of this Doctrine , and are capable of judging concerning the Divinity of it . For the Light spoken of in Scripture , is not a Light to the eye , but to the mind ; now the mind is capable of this Light , as well by the ear , as by the eyes . The case then of such honest illiterate persons , as are not capable of reading Scripture , but diligently and devoutly hear it read to them , is much of the same nature with those who heard the Apostles preach this Doctrine before it was writ . For , whatever was an Argument to such to believe the Apostles in what they spake , becomes an Argument to such who hear the same things , which are certainly conveyed to us , by an unquestionable Tradition : So that nothing hinders , but such illiterate persons may resolve their Faith into the same Doctrine and Motives which others do , only those are conveyed to them by the ear , which are conveyed to others by the eyes . But , if you suppose persons so rude and illiterate , as not to understand any thing , but that they are to believe as the Church believes ; do you , if you can , resolve their Faith for them ; for my part , I cannot , and am so far from it , that I have no reason to believe they can have any . 2. The second thing objected by your discourser , is , That if the Churches judgement be fallible , then much more ones own judgement is fallible . And therefore , if , notwithstanding all the care and pains taken by the Doctors of the Church , their perswasion was only humane and fallible ; What reason hath any particular person to say , That he is divinely and infallibly certain by his reading the Scripture , that it is Divine Truth . But , 1. Is there no difference between the Churches Perswasion , and the Churches Tradition ? Doth the Bishop deny , but the perswasion of the Doctors of the Church , is as infallible , as that of any particular person ? But this he denies , that they can derive that Infallibility of the grounds of their Perswasion into their Tradition , so as those who are to receive it on their Testimony , may be competent Judges of it . May we not then suppose their Tradition to be humane and fallible , whose perswasion of what they deliver , is established on infallible grounds ? As a Mathematician is demonstratively convinced himself of the Truth of any particular Problem ; but , if he bids another believe it on his Testimony , the other thereby hath no demonstrative evidence of the Truth of it , but only so great moral evidence , as the Testimony of that person carries along with it . The case is the same here : Suppose those persons in the Church in every Age of it , have to themselves infallible evidence of the Divinity of the Scripture , yet when they are to deliver this to be believed by others , unless their Testimony hath infallible evidence in it , men can never have more than humane or moral certainty of it . 2. It doth not at all follow , that if the Testimony of the Church be fallible , no particular person can be infallibly assured of the Divinity of the Scripture , unless this assurance did wholly depend upon that Testimony ; indeed , if it did so , the Argument would hold , but otherwise it doth not at all . Now , you know , the Bishop denies that the Faith of any particular person doth rest upon the judgement of the Church ; only he saith , This may be a Motive and Inducement to men , to consider further ; but that which they rely upon , is , that rational evidence which appears in the Scripture it self . 3. He goes on , and argues against this use of Tradition , thus , If the Light of the Scripture be insufficient to shew it self , unless it be introduced by the recommendation of the Church ; How came Luther , Calvin , Zuinglius , Husse , &c. to discover this Light in it , seeing they rejected the Authority of all visible Churches in the world , & c ? Sure your Discourser was not very profound in this , that could not distinguish between the Authority of Vniversal Tradition , and the Authority of the present visible Church , or between the Testimony of the Church , and the Authority of it . Shew us where Luther , Calvin , &c. did ever reject the Authority of an uncontrouled Vniversal Tradition , such as that here mentioned concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God : Shew us where they deny that Vse of the Testimony of those Churches , whose Authority in imposing matters of Faith they denied , which his Lordship asserts , viz. to be a means to introduce men to the knowledge and belief of the Scritures ; and , unless you shew this , you do nothing . 4. He argues against that Light in Scripture , because it is not sufficient to distinguish Canonical Books from such as are not so ; For ( saies he ) Had not the Ancient Primitive Fathers in the first three hundred years , as much reason and ability to find this Light in Scripture , as any particular person ? Yet many Books which do appear to us to be God's Word , by their Light , did not appear to be so to them by it , till they were declared such by the Catholick Church . I answer , 1. Where doth his Lordship ever say , or pretend , that any person , by the Light contained in the Books , can distinguish Books that are Canonical , from such as are not ? All that can be discovered , as to particular Books in question , is , the examination of the Doctrine contained in them by the series of that , which is in the unquestionable Books ; for , we know , that God can never speak contradictions : but still this will only serve to exclude such Books as contain things contrary , but not to admit all which have no Doctrine contrary to Scripture . 2. The reason why the Primitive Fathers questioned any Books that we do not , was not because they could not discover that Light in them , which we do ; for neither can we discover so much Light in any particular Book , as meerly from thence to say , It is Canonical ; but there was not sufficient evidence then appearing to them , that those Copies did proceed from Apostolical persons ; and this was therefore only an Argument of that commendable care and caution which was in them , lest any Book should pass for Canonical , which was not really so . 3. When the Catholick Church declared any controverted Book to be Canonical ; Did not the Church then see as much Light in it as we do ? but that Light which both the Church and we discover , is not a discriminating Internal Light , but an External Evidence from the sufficiency , and validity of Testimony . And such we have for the Canonical Books of the Old Testament ; and therefore you have no cause to quarrel with us , for receiving them from the Jewish Synagogue ; For who , I pray , are so competent witnesses of what is delivered , as they who received it ? and the Apostle tells us , That to the Jews were committed the Oracles of God. 5. Hence your discoursing Christian argues , That if one take up the Scripture on the account of Tradition , then , if one should deny S. Matthew 's Gospel to be the written Word of God , he could not be accounted an Heretick , because it was not sufficiently propounded to him to be God's Word . Whether such a person may be accounted a Heretick in your sense , or no , I am sure he is in S. Paul's , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , self-condemned , and that for the very contrary reason to what you give , because this is sufficiently propounded to him . I pray , tell me , What way you would have such a thing sufficiently propounded as a matter to be believed , that this is not propounded in ? Would you have an unquestionable evidence , that this was writ by one of Christ's Apostles , called S. Matthew ? so you have . Would you have all the Churches of Christ agreed in this Testimony in all Ages from the Apostles times ? so you have . Would you have it delivered to you by the Testimony of the present Church ? so you have . What then is , or can be wanting , in order to a Proposition of it to be believed ? Why , forsooth , some infallible , authoritative sentence of the present Church , which shall make this an Object of Faith. See what a different mould some mens minds are of from others ! For my part , should I see , or hear any Church in the world , undertaking such an office as that , I should be so far from thinking it more sufficiently propounded by it , that I should not scruple to charge it with the greatest presumption and arrogance that may be . For , on what account can it possibly be a thing credible to me , that S. Matthew's Gospel contains God's written Word any further , than it is evident that the person who wrote it , was one chosen by Christ , to deliver the summe of his proceedings , as an Apostle , to the world ? And therefore I have no reason to think , he would deceive men in what he spake or writ : The only Question then is , How I should know this is no counterfeit name , but that S. Matthew writ it ? Let us consider , what possible means there are to be assured of it . I cannot imagine any but these two ; Either that God should immediately reveal it either to my self , or to some Church to propound it to me ; or else , that I am to believe those persons who first received those Copies from his hands , by whose means they were dispersed abroad in the world , from whence they are conveyed by an unquestionable Tradition down to us . Of these two , chuse whether you please : if the first , then particular immediate Revelations are necessary to particular persons , to have such an Object of Faith sufficiently propounded to them , and then the Church cannot authoritatively pronounce any Books of Scripture to be Canonical , without immediate Revelation to her , that this Book was written by such a person , who was divinely assisted in the writing of it . And this you have denied before to belong to the Church . If you take up with the second , the unquestionable Testimony of all Ages , since the Apostles ; then judge you whether S. Matthew's Gospel be not sufficiently propounded to be believed ; and consequently , Whether any one who should question or deny it , be not guilty of the greatest peevishness and obstinacy imaginable . From hence we may see , with what superfluity of discretion the next words came from you ; Nay , hence it follows , that even our blessed Saviour , who is Wisdom it self , would have been esteemed by all the world , not a wise Law-giver , but a meer Ignoramus and Impostor . For shame , man , forbear such insolent expressions for the future , and repent of these . For , Must Christ's Wisdom be called in question , and he liable to be accounted an Ignoramus and Impostor ; if he doth not make your Church infallible ? I have told you often before , how much your Doctrine of Infallibility tends to Atheism , and now you speak out . For the meaning of your words plainly , is , If God hath not entrusted your Church with a full and absolute power to declare what is his will , and what not , Christ was an Ignoramus and Impostor . For that is the substance of your next words . For , had he not framed , think you , a strange and Chimerical Common-wealth , were it alone destitute of a full and absolute power , to give an authentical and unquestionable declaration , which is the true and genuine Law. Now , it is evident from all your discourse foregoing , you only plead for this full and absolute power in your Church ; and judge you then what the consequence is ( to all those who cannot see any shadow of reason for this your pretended Infallibility ) neither more nor less , than that Christ is liable to be accounted by all the world an Ignoramus and Impostor : Nay , that they are fools , who account him not so , if they do not believe this present Infallibility of your Church ; for it is apparent ( say you ) that he hath ordered his Common-wealth worse than ever any one did . And now let any that consider what pitiful silly proofs you have produced for this present Infallibility , ( nay , such , that I am confident , that you cannot think your self you have in the least measure proved it ) then judge , what thoughts of Christ you are forced to entertain your self upon your own Argument , viz. as of an Ignoramus and Impostor . Hath not your Infallibility lead you now a fine dance ? Is not this the way to make Faith certain , and to reclaim Atheists ? I had thought it had been enough for your Canonists , to have charged Christ with indiscretion , if he had not left a Vicar on earth ; but now , it seems , the profound Philosophers , learned Divines , and expert Historians ( for such a one , you told us , your discoursing Christian was supposed by you to be in whose name these words are spoken ) do charge Christ with folly and imposture , if he hath not made your Church infallible . For , shift it off , as you can , you cannot deny but that must be the aim of these words : for you are proving the necessity of an infallible Declaration by the present Church , in order to a sufficient Proposition of the Scripture to be believed ; and it is notorious you never pretend that any Church hath any share in this Infallibility , but your own ; And therefore the consequence unavoidably follows , that since there can be no sufficient Proposition , that the Scripture is to be believed without this infallible Testimony ; since no Church pretends to this Infallibility , but yours ; since , without such provision for the Church , Christ would have been esteemed by all the world not a wise Law-giver , but a meer Ignoramus and Impostor ; What then follows , but that if your Church be not infallible , He must be accounted so ? And if you dread not these consequences ; I hope all Christians do , and have never the better thoughts of your Infallibility for them . 6. Let us see , how he comes closer to the matter it self ; and examines how this Light should be Infallible , and Divine , supposing the Churches Testimony to be humane and fallible . The substance of which , is this , If the Church may erre , we may suppose she hath erred in testifying some Books to be God's Word ; in that case , Books that were not God's Word , would be equally recommended with those that were : And that it would be impossible for any particular person , by reading them , to distinguish the one from the other . To which I answer 1. It is all one with you to suppose a Church fallible , and suppose that she hath erred . To put a case of a like nature . The Testimony of all mankind is fallible ; May you therefore suppose that all mankind hath erred in something they are agreed in ? The Testimony of all those persons who have seen Rome , is fallible ; May I therefore question whether they were not all deceived ? But of this , afterwards . 2. When you speak of the Church erring , Do you mean the Church in every Age since Christ's Coming , concerning all the Books of Scripture ? or , the present Church , concerning only some Books of Scripture ? If you suppose , the Church of all Ages should be deceived , you must suppose some , who were infallible , should be deceived ; those were the Apostles in writing and delivering their Books to the Churches of their time , or else you must suppose all the Apostolical Churches deceived in taking those Books to have come from the Apostles , which did not ; And is not this a congruous Supposition ? Well then , if it be unreasonable to suppose the Apostolical Churches deceived , and impossible to imagine the Apostles deceived , in saying , They writ what they did not : Where then must such an universal-errour as this , come in ? Or , Is it not equally unreasonable to suppose all the Christian Churches in the world should be deceived , without any questioning of such a deceit , supposing but the goodness and common providence of God in preserving such records , and the moral industry used by Christians , in a matter of such importance ? It is therefore a very absurd and unreasonable thing to imagine , That all the Churches of Christ , in all Ages , should erre in receiving all the Books of Scripture . Let us then see , as to the present Churches erring , as to particular Books ? 1. Either the Records of former Ages are left to judge by , or no ? If they be , as certainly they are , we thereby see a way to correct the errour of the present Church , by appealing to these records of the Church in former times ? if they be not left , how could any of these Books be derived from Apostolical Tradition , when we have no means to trace such a Tradition by ? 2. Supposing only some Books questioned , or that the present Church erres only in some particular Books ; then it appears that there remains a far greater number of such Books , whose Authority we have no reason at all to question , and by comparing the other with these we may easily prevent any very dangerous errour ; for if they contain any Doctrine contrary to the former , we have no reason to believe them ; if they do not , there can be no very dangerous errour in admitting them . Thus you see how easily this errour is prevented supposing the Churches testimony not only fallible , but that it also should actually erre in delivering some Books for Canonical , which are not so : but supposing a Church pretends to be Infallible and is believed to be so , and yet doth actually erre in delivering the Canon of Scripture , what remedy is there then ? for while we look on the Churches testimony as fallible , there is scope and liberty left for enquiry and further satisfaction , but if it be looked on as Infallible , all that believe it to be so are left under an impossibility of escaping that errour which she is guilty of . And the more dangerous such an errour is , the worse the condition is of all such who believe the Churches Testimony Infallible . Now this is that we justly charge your Church with , that while she pretends to Infallibility , she hath actually erred in delivering such Books for Canonical which are not so , as hath been abundantly manifested by the worthies of our Church . The remainder of this discourse of yours concerning knowing Canonical Books by the light in them , is vacated by our present answer ; and so is the other concerning Apostolical traditions by our former , upon that subject . As to that Scruple , How the light should be Infallible and Divine , when the Churches Testimony is humane and fallible , it signifies nothing unless the light be only supposed to rise from the Testimony , which his Lordship denies . 7. The judgement of the Fathers is inquired into concerning the present subject ; out of whom only Irenaeus and St. Augustin are produced , as affirming in many places , That the Tradition of the Church is sufficient to found Christian Faith even without Scripture , and that for some hundreds of years after the Canon of Scripture was written . But must we stand only to the judgement of these two concerning the sense of the Primitive Church in this present Controversie ? We may easily know the judgement of the Fathers , if two such lame Citations as these are , are sufficient to discover it . But your unhappiness is great in whatever you undertake : If you meddle with reason , you soon find how little it becomes you : if you fly to the Fathers , they prove the greatest witnesses against you ; as will appear in this debate , if we first examine the citations you produce , and then shew how fully and clearly these very persons whom you have picked out of all the Chorus do deliver themselves against you . The first citation is that known one , out of Irenaeus , concerning those barbarous nations who believed without the Scriptures , adhering to the Tradition of the Apostles , having salvation written without Paper and Ink. But what it is you would hence inferr , I cannot imagine , unless it be one of these two things ; 1. That if we had no Scriptures left us , it would be necessary for us to believe on the account of Apostolical Tradition ; that is ▪ that the grounds of our Faith were so clear and evident of themselves , that though they had never been written , yet if they had been conveyed by an unquestionable Tradition from the Apostles , there had lain an obligation on us to believe the Doctrine of Christ. But , is this our case ? hath not God infinitely better provided for us , when ( as your other witness St. Augustine speaks ) Whatever our Saviour would have us read of his actions or speeches , he commanded his Apostles and Disciples as his hands to write . Christian Religion is now no Cabala to us , God hath consigned his will over to us , by Codicills of his own appointing ; and must we then be now in the like case , as if his Will had never been written at all ? 2. But what if the barbarous Nations did believe without the Books of Scripture ; what doth that prove , but only this ; that there may be sufficient reason to believe in Christ where the Scriptures are not known ? Is that contrary to us who say , The last resolution of Faith is into the Doctrine of Christ as attested by God : now if that attestation be sufficiently conveyed , there is an obligation to believe ; but withall we say , that to us who enjoy the Scriptures as delivered down to us , the only certain and infallible conveyance of Gods Word to us is by them . So that the whole Christian world is obliged to you for your civil comparison of them , with those Barbarians who either enjoyed not the Scriptures , or in probability were not able to make use of them , as being probably ignorant of the use of letters . 3. Doth Irenaeus in these words say , that even these Barbarians did believe upon the Infallible Testimony of the present Church ? No ; he mentions no such thing , but that they believed that Tradition of Doctrine which was delivered them from the Apostles . I ask you then ; Suppose at that time some honest but fallible persons should have gone into Scythia , or some such barbarous places , and delivered the Doctrine of the Gospel , and attesting the matters of fact as being eye-witnesses of Christs Miracles , Death , and Resurrection , whether would these Barbarians have been bound to believe or no ? If not , then for all I know , Infidelity is a very excusable sin ; If they were , I pray tell me what it was their Faith was resolved into ; was it an infallible testimony of fallible men ? And the same case is , of such who should preach the same Doctrine from these eye-witnesses in another Generation , and so on ; for although there might be no reason to question their testimony , yet I suppose you will not say , It is Infallible ? so that still this makes nothing for your purpose . 4. Who better understood Irenaeus his mind , than himself ? let us therefore see what he elsewhere tells us is the foundation and pillar of our Faith who have received the Scriptures . Doth not he tell us , but three Chapters before this , That we have received the method or Doctrine of our Salvation , from those persons who preached it ; which by Gods command they after delivered in the Scriptures , which were to be the foundation and pilla● of our Faith. Could any thing be more fully spoken to our purpose than this is ? Whereby he shews us , now the Scriptures are consigned unto us , what that is which our Faith must stand upon : not the Infallibility of the Church , but that Word of God which is delivered to us . This therefore he elsewhere calls the Vnmoveable Canon of our Faith , as S. Augustine calls it Divinam stateram , the Divine ballance we must weigh the grounds of our Belief in . By which we may guess , what little relief you are like to have from your second witness St. Augustin . Two citations you produce out of him ; and , I question not , but to make it appear , that neither of those Testimonies do make for you ; and those very Books afford us sufficient against you . The first is out of his Books of Christian Doctrine , which lest we should think not pertinent , you care not to produce it ; but we must . A man who strengthens himself with Faith , Hope , and Charity , and retains them unshaken , needs not the Scriptures , but only to instruct others : for by these three , many live without Books in a desert . His meaning is , that he who hath a principle of Divine life within him , which discovers it self in the exercise of those three Graces , needs not so much the external precepts , because that inward principle will carry him to actions suitable to it ; only , for convincing or instructing others , these Books are continually useful ; but for themselves , those good men who first through the fury of their persecution were driven , and after others , who , in imitation of that piety they shewed there , did withdraw into remote places , did live in the exercise of their Religion without them . But what is there in all this to inferr , that not the Scriptures but the Infallibility of the Church is the foundation of Faith ? Doth St. Augustine suppose that men may have Faith , Hope , and Charity , without believing : or that men may believe without the Scriptures , when in the precedent Chapter he hath this remarkable expression concerning Faith , That it will soon stumble , if the Authority of the sacred Scriptures be weakned : and doth not this imply that Faith stands on the Authority of the Scriptures as its proper foundation ? But this were pardonable , if the very design of all that Treatise did not so evidently refute all your pretensions , as nothing can do it more effectually . For can you possibly perswade any reasonable man to think , that St. Augustine dreamt of any such thing , as the Infallible Testimony of the present Church to be the ground of Faith , who when he purposely discourseth concerning the Christian Doctrine , the principles of it , and the best means to understand it , never so much as mentions any such thing ; but on the contrary directs to no other but those you call Moral and Fallible means . For understanding the principles of Christian Doctrine , he shews us the several natures of things , some to be enjoyed , some to be used , and others both : that the main thing we are to enjoy is God , and therefore begins with him as our last end in whom our happiness lies , and then shews the means to come to this enjoyment of God , by explaining the principles of Faith and the efficacy of it . In his second Book he shews how we may come to the sense of Scripture , and first discovers the nature of signs which represent things , and of letters which are signs of words , and since there are diversities of tongues , how necessary the translation of Scripture is into them ( a good citation for you to justifie your Bibles and Prayers in an unknown language with ) and then shews what great reason there was , why there should be some doubtful and obscure places left in Scripture , to conquer our pride by industry , and to keep the understanding from nauseating , which commonly slights things that are easily understood . Then shews what preparation and disposition of soul is requisite for Divine wisdome , and so comes to the understanding the Scriptures : for which , first is requisite a serious and diligent reading of them ; in order to which he must carefully distinguish such as are Canonical from such as are not ; and for judging of these , he never so much as mentions , much less sends us to the Infallible Testimony of the Roman Church , but bids us follow the Authority of the most Catholick Churches among which those are , which are worthy to be call'd Apostolical See's , and had Epistles sent to them . What Authority then had the Church of Rome to judge of Canonical Scriptures , more then Ephesus , Philippi , Thessalonica , &c. To be sure then , St. Augustin was not of our Discourser's mind , as to the judgement of Canonical Books : and why should he send men to those Churches which received the Epistles , but that there they were like to meet with greater satisfaction as to the authenticalness of the Copies of those Epistles ? After this , he gives directions for understanding hard places , First by diligent reading and remembring the plainest places ; for in them ( saith he ) are found all those things which contain matters of Faith and Practice . An excellent citation for you for several purposes , especially when you would prove the obscurity of Scripture , the necessity of an Infallible Judge , or your Doctrine of Fundamentals out of St. Augustin . And then bids them compare obscure and easie places together , to understand the proprieties of words , to get knowledge in the Tongues , to compare Versions , Antecedents and Consequents , to be skil'd in all humane Arts and Sciences , these and several other instructions to the same purpose are the scope of his following Books . Would any one now , but T. C. have ventured so unluckily upon this Treatise of St. Augustin above all others , to prove the Infallibility of the Churches Testimony as necessary to Faith by ? Could any Protestant have delivered his mind more punctually and plainly than he doth ? And can you , or any one else that doth but look into that Book , imagine that St. Augustin ever imagined , that any such thing should ever be thought of in the world , as that the Testimony of the Church of Rome must be owned as the Infallible foundation of Faith , and the Infallible Interpreter of Scripture ? But this it is , to converse with the Fathers only by retail , as they are delivered out in parcels to you with directions upon them what use they are for , by Bellarmin and such Artists as himself . This is , instead of quoting the Fathers , to challenge them ; and you see they are not afraid to appear , though to your shame and confusion . But for all this you have a Reserve in St. Augustin still : let us see what quotation that is , which lies so in Ambuscado behind the hedges , and is so loath to come out . There is good reason for so much reservedness ; for when we come to search , we find only bushes instead of Souldiers . I have throughly examined the place you referr us to , and cannot meet any thing the least pertinent to your purpose , unless the question of the Lawfulness of Hereticks Baptism , prove your Churches Testimony to be Infallible . But it may be , it is but a venial mistake of a Chapter or two , forward or backward , and there we may find it . Which when I look into , I cannot but suspect that some Protestant had trepanned you into this Book and place of St. Augustine ; there being scarce any Book or place in him more begirt with Arguments against you than this is . I was at first fearful you had quoted Fathers at a peradventure ; but upon my further considering the place , I soon rectified that mistake . I will therefore reckon you up some of the most probable Citations out of St. Augustins Books of Baptism against the Donatists , and choose which of them you please to prove the necessity of an Infallible Testimony of the present Church as a foundation of Faith by ? I suppose , that you intended is in the Chapter but one following , where St. Augustine Cites that passage of Cyprian , That we ought to recurre to the fountain , i. e. to Apostolical Tradition , and thence derive the channel into our own times ; this , saith St. Augustin , is the best , and without doubt to be done . No doubt you think you owe me great thanks for finding out so apposite a place for you , so near that you intended ; but , before we have done with it , you will see what little reason you have to thank me for it : The place you see is cited by St. Augustin out of Cyprian in whose Epistle it is , to Pompeius against Stephanus Bishop of Rome : we therefore consider , that it was Stephen who pleaded custom and tradition , to which Cyprian replies , Whence comes this Tradition , doth it descend from the Lords Authority , or from the Commands and Epistles of the Apostles , for those things are to be done which are there written ? And again , If it be commanded in the Gospel , or the Epistles , and Acts of the Apostles , then let this holy Tradition be observed . We see then what St. Cyprian meant by his Apostolical Tradition , not one Infallibly attested by the present Church , but that is clearly derived from Scripture as its fountain : and therefore brings in the foregoing words on purpose to correct the errours of Traditions , that , As when channels are diverted to a wrong course , we must have recourse to the fountain ; so we must in all pretended Traditions of the Church , run up to the Scriptures as the fountain-head . And whereas Bellarmins only shift to avoid this place of Cyprian , is , by saying that Cyprian argued more errantium , i. e. could not defend one errour but by another ; see how different the judgements of St. Augustine and Bellarmin are about it : for St. Augustin is so far from blaming it in him , that he saith , Optimum est & sine dubitatione faciendum , i. e. It was the best and most prudent course to prevent errours . And in another place where he mentions that saying of Cyprian , It is in vain for them to object Custom , who are overcome by Reason , as though custom were greater than truth ; or as though that were not to be followed in spiritual things , which is revealed by the Holy Ghost . This , saith St. Augustin , is evidently true , because reason and truth is to be preferred before custom . He doth not charge these sayings on him as Bellarmin doth , as part of his errours , but acknowledgeth them and disputes against his opinion out of those principles . And when before , the Donatists objected the authority of St. Cyprian in the point of Rebaptization , What kind of answer doth St. Augustine give them ? the very same that any Protestant would give . Who knows not that the sacred Canonical Scripture of the Old and New Testament is contained within certain bounds ; and ought so far to be prefer'd before the succeeding writings of Bishops , that of that alone we are not to doubt or call in question any thing therein written , whether it be true and right or no. But , as he saith in the following words , All the writings since the confirmation of the Canon of Scripture are lyable to dispute , and even Councils themselves to be examined and amended by Councils . Think you then , that St. Augustin ever thought of a present Infallibility in the Church ? or if he did , he expressed it in as odd a manner as ever I read : How easily might he have stopt the mouths of the Donatists with that one pretence of Infallibility ? How impertinently doth he dispute through all those Books , if he had believed any such thing ? It were easie to multiply the Citations out of other Books of St. Austin , to shew how much he attributed to Scripture , as the only rule of Faith ; and consequently , how farr from believing your Doctrine of Infallibility . But these may suffice to shew , how unhappily you light on these Books of St. Augustine for the proof of your opinion out of the Fathers . The last thing your Discourser objects against his Lordships way , is , If the Church be fallible in the Tradition of Scripture , how can I ever be Infallibly certain , that she hath not erred de facto , and defined some Book to be the Word of God , which really is not his Word ? To which I answer . If you mean by Infallible certainty , such a certainty as must have some Infallible Testimony for the ground of it , you beg the question : for I deny any such Infallible Testimony to be at all requisite for our believing the Canon of Scripture , and therefore you object that as an inconvenience , which I apprehend to be none at all . For I do not think it any absurdity to say , that I cannot believe upon some Infallible Testimony , that the Church hath not erred in defining the Canon of Scripture . If by Infallible certainty you mean such a certainty as absolutely excludes a possibility of deception ; you would do well , first to shew how congruous this is to humane nature in this present state , before you make such a certainty so necessary for any act of humane understanding . But , if by Infallible certainty you mean only such as excludes all possibility of reasonable doubting upon the consideration of the validity and sufficiency of that Testimony I am to believe the Canon of Scripture upon ; then I assert , that upon making the Churches Testimony to be fallible , it doth not at all follow , but that I may have so great a certainty as excludes the possibility of all reasonable doubting concerning the Canon of Scripture . For when I suppose the Churches Testimony fallible , I do not thereby understand , as though there were as great reason to suspect her deceived , as not , ( nay , I say there can be no reason to suspect her deceived ) ; but by that I understand only this , that the Church hath not any supernatural Infallibility given her in delivering such a Testimony , or that such Infallibility must be the foundation of believing the thing so delivered . For whether I suppose your particular Church of Rome , or the Catholick Church to be supernaturally Infallible in her Traditions , there will be the same difficulty returning , and an equal impossibility of vindicating our Faith from the entanglements of a Circle . For still the question unavoidably returns , From whence I believe such a supernatural Infallibility in the Church ? For in that it is supernatural it must suppose some promise on which it depends , that promise must be somewhere extant , and that can be no where but in Scripture ; therefore when I am asked , Why I believe the Canon of the Scripture to be true ; if I answer , Because the Tradition of the Catholick Church is Infallible , the question presently returns , Since humane nature is in it self fallible , whence comes the Church to have this Infallibility ? If I answer , By the assistance of Gods spirit , I am presently asked , Since no man by the light of nature and meer reason can be assured of this ; how know you that you are not deceived in believing such an assistance ? If to this I answer , Because God who is Infallible hath made this promise in his Word , I am driven again to the first question , How I know this to be Gods Word , and must answer it as before , Upon the infallible Testimony of the Catholick Church . Thus we see , how impossible it is to avoid a Circle in the supposition of a supernatural Infallibility in the Churches Tradition . But , if no more be meant but a kind of rational Infallibility ( though those terms be not very proper ) i. e. so great evidence , as , if I question it , I may , upon equal grounds , question every thing which mankind yields the firmest Assent to , because I cannot imagine , that so great a part of the wisest , and most considerative part of the world should be so grosly deceived in a matter of such moment ( especially supposing a Divine Providence ) then I freely and heartily assert , We have such a kind of rational Infallibility ; or rather the highest degree of actual Certainty concerning the Truth of the Canon of Scripture ; and that the Catholick Church hath not de facto , erred in defining it . Thus I have followed your discoursing Christian through all his doubts and perplexities , and upon the result , can find no ground at all either of doubting concerning the Scripture , or of believing the Testimony of your Church , or any , to be an infallible ground of Faith. Your next passage , is , to tell us how his Lordships Dedalian windings ( as you finely call them ) are disintricated : A happy man you are at squaring Circles , and getting out of Labyrinths . And thus it appears in the present case . For when his Lordship had said , That the Tradition of the Church is too weak , because that is not absolutely Divine ; you repeat over your already exploded Proposition , that there may be an infallible Testimony which is not absolutely Divine ; which , when I have your faculty of writing things , which neither you , nor any one else can understand I may admit of ; but till then , I must humbly beg your pardon , as not being able to assent to any thing which I cannot understand , and have no reason to believe . And withall , contrary to your second Answer , it appears , That if the Testimony of the Primitive , were absolutely Divine , because infallible , the Testimony of the present Church , must be absolutely Divine , if it be infallible . The rest of this Chapter is spent in the examining some by-citations of men of your own side chiefly , and therefore it is very little material as to the truth or falshood of the present Controversie ; yet , because you seem to triumph so much assoon as you are off the main business , I shall briefly return an Answer to the substance of what you say . His Lordship having asserted the Tradition of the Primitive Apostolical Church to be Divine , and that the Church of England doth embrace that as much as any Church whatsoever , withall adds , That when S. Augustine said , I would not believe the Gospel , unless the Authority of the Catholick Church moved me ; some of your own will not endure should be understood , save of the Church in the time of the Apostles only ; and some , of the Church in general , not excluding after Ages : but sure to include Christ and his Apostles . In your Answer to this , you insult strangely over his Lordship in two things . First , That he should say Some , and mention but one in his Margent . 2. That that One doth not say , what he cites out of him . To the first I answer , you might easily observe , the use his Lordship makes of his Margent , is not so much to bring clear and distinct proofs of what he writes in his Book , but what hath some reference to what he there saies ; and therefore it was no absurdity for him to say in his Book indefinitely some , and yet in his Margent only to mention Occham . For , when his Lordship writ that , no doubt his mind was upon others , who asserted the same thing , though he did not load his Margent with them . And , that you may see , I have reason for what I say , I hope you will not suppose his Lordship unacquainted with the Testimonies of those of your side , who do in terms assert this . That I may therefore free you from all kind of suspicion ; What think you of Gerson , when , speaking of the greater Authority of the Primitive Church than of the present : he adds . And by this means we come to understand , what S. Augustine said , I would not believe the Gospel , &c. For there , saith he , he takes the Church for the Primitive Congregation of Believers , who saw and heard Christ , and were witnesses of what he did . Is not this Testimony plain enough for you ? But , besides this , we have another as evident , in whom are those very words , which his Lordship , by a lapse of memory , attributes to Occham : For Durandus plainly sayes , That for what concerns the approbation of Scripture by the Church , it is understood only of the Church which was in the Apostles times , who were filled with the Holy Spirit , and withall , saw the Miracles of Christ , and heard his Doctrine ; and on that account were convenient witnesses of all which Christ did , or taught , that by their Testimony , the Scripture containing the actions and speeches of Christ , might receive approbation . Do you yet desire a Testimony more express and full , than this is , of one who doth understand the Church exclusively of all successive to the Apostles , when he had , just before , produced that known Testimony of S. Augustine ? You see then , the Bishop had some reason to say , Some of your Church asserted this to be S. Augustine 's meaning ; and therefore your Instances of some , where but one is meant , are both impertinent and scurrilous . For , where it is evidently known , there was but one , it were a Soloecism to say some ; as to say , that some of the Apostles betrayed Christ , when it is known , that none but Judas did it . But , if I should say , that some Jesuits had writ for the killing of Kings , and in the Margent should cite Mariana , no person conversant in their writings , would think it a Soloecism ; for , though I produce him for a remarkable Instance , yet that doth not imply , that I have none else to produce , but only that the mentioning of one , might shew I was not without proof of what I said . For your impudent oblique slander on the memory of that excellent Prelate Arch-Bishop Cranmer , when you say , If a Catholick to disgrace the Protestant Primacy of Canterbury , should say , Some of them carried a holy Sister lockt up in a Chest about with them , and name Cranmer only in the Margent ; His memory is infinitely above your slyest detractions ; and withall , when you are about such a piece of Criticism , I pray , tell me , what doth some of them relate to . Is Primacy the name of some men ? Just as if one should disgrace the See of Rome , and say , Some of them have been Atheists , Magicians , debauched , &c. Though , I confess , it were a great injury in this case , to cite but one in the Margent , unless in pity to the Reader ; yet , you may sooner vindicate some of them from a Soloecism in Language , when the See of Rome went before , than any of them from those Soloecisms in manners , which your own Authours have complained of . But , say you , What if this singular-plural say no such thing , as the words alledged by the Bishop signifie ? I have already granted it to have been a very venial mistake of memory in his Lordship of Occham for Durandus ; in whom those very words are which are in the Margent of his Lordships Book , as appears in the Testimony already produced . I acknowledge therefore , that Occham in that place of his Dialogues , doth speak of the Catholick Church of all Ages , comprehending the Apostles and Evangelists in it ; and in this sense he saith , that place of S. Augustine is to be understood . But , what advantage this is to your cause , I cannot imagine . For , what if the Catholick Church be taken in that comprehensive sense , to include not only the Apostles , but the Church successively from their times ? Doth it hence follow , That it is not day though the Sun shines ? Or rather , Doth it not follow , That you are not so quick-sighted as you would seem to be ? And , Whether his Lordship or you come nearer the meaning of Occham's words , let any one judge . For they who speak of the Church in that comprehensive sense , do only suppose the Infallibility to have been in the Primitive Apostolical Church , but the successive Church to be only the chanel of conveyance of that Testimony down to us , and so they say no more than we do . Thus Driedo expounds that place of S. Augustine ; who understands it of the Catholick Church , which was from the beginning of the Christian Faith , increasing according to the course of succession of Bishops to these times , which Church comprehends in it the Colledge of Apostles . Do you think that these men did believe a present Infallibility in the Church ? If so , To what end are they so careful to carry it so high as the Apostles ? Whereas , on your Principle we can have no Assurance concerning any thing that the Apostles did or said but only for the Infallibility of the present Church . You must therefore understand the present Church exclusively of the Apostolical Church ; and therefore if S. Augustine be understood in their sense , he is far enough from serving your purposes . But , say you , It is evident , that S. Augustine must speak of the Church in his time , because he speaks of that Church which said to him , Noli credere Manichaeo , which was not true of the Apostolical Church ? But , Why might not the Apostolical Church be a reason to S. Augustine , not to believe Manichaeus , because he found no footsteps of his Doctrine in the Records of that Church ? Again , suppose he means the present Church , Doth he mean the infallible Testimony of the present Church ? Might not the Testimony of the Church , supposing it fallible , be sufficient for what S. Augustine saith of it ? I doubt it not : And , you seem to have no great confidence in this Testimony your self , when you add , That though it be a point of Faith to believe that the Church is infallible , in delivering Scripture to us , yet it is not a point of Faith , that her Infallibility is proved out of the cited place of S. Augustine . But , when you say , it is sufficient that it be clear and manifest out of the Text it self , what Text do you mean ? S. Augustines , or the Scriptures ? If S. Augustines , you would do well to shew , by what engines you force Infallibility out of his words ; if the Scriptures , What becomes of our good Motives of Credibility ? When his Lordship objects , That according to your Principles , the Tradition of the present Church must be as infallible as that of the Primitive , you very learnedly distinguish , That if he means , the one must be as truly and really infallible , quoad substantiam , as the other , you grant it : But if he mean , the one must be as highly and perfectly infallible , as the other , quoad modum , you deny it . Very good still ! It seems there are higher and lower degrees in Infallibility . I pray tell us , What that is which is more than infallible ? The present Church ( you say ) is infallible , but not so highly and perfectly infallible , therefore there must be degrees in Infallibility ; and since the lowest degree is infallible , that which is highly infallible , must be more than infallible . Again , What difference is there between the substance and the mode in Infallibility ; I had thought , the substance of Infallibility had layn in the mode ; and I should rather think Infallibility it self to be a mode of Apprehension ▪ then talk of substances and modes in it . But , it may be , you mean such kind of modes of Infallibility , as absolute and hypothetical . If you do so , explain your self by them ; and that we may better understand your meaning , shew us whether the Church be at all capable of absolute Infallibility ; if not ▪ What difference there is in degrees between the hypothetical Infallibility of the present and Primitive Church , supposing both infallible in delivering their Testimony , and no otherwise . For you yet again add , Of the Churches Testimony being infallible , but not simply Divine , but it is the infallible Testimony of a desperate cause , to have but one bad shift , and to use it so often . Because you would be apt to say , That upon his Lordships rejecting the Infallibility of Tradition , he left no use at all of it ; He therefore tells you , Notwithstanding that , it is serviceable for very good ends , that it induces Infidels to the reading and consideration of Scripture , and that it instructs novices , and doubters in the Faith ; which two ends ( you say ) fall short of the end of Tradition ; For ( say you ) it founds and establishes Believers , even the greatest Doctors of the Church ; for which you cite again this same place of S. Augustine . But did not his Lordship tell you , that some of your own understood that very place , either of Novices or Infidels : For which , besides the Testimony of some of your own party , he adds this reason , because the words immediately before are , If thou find one qui Evangelio nondum credit , which did not yet believe the Gospel , What wouldst thou do to make him believe ? Ego vero non , &c. To which you very prudently say nothing . Concerning Almayn's Opinion , That we are first , and more , bound to believe the Church than the Scripture ; you would seem in terms to disavow it , though very faintly ; it is not altogether true ; and hope to salve it by a distinction of priority of time and nature : and you acknowledge , That in priority of nature we are first bound to believe the Church , and , I suppose , in priority of time too , if we believe the Scripture for the Churches sake : Yet , you would not have it said , That we are more bound to believe the Church than Scripture ; but it is not what you would have properly said , but what follows from that antecedent , which Jacobus Almayn puts . It is certain , saith he , that we are bound to believe all things contained in the Sacred Canon , upon that account alone , because the Church believes them ; therefore we are first , and more , bound to believe the Church than the Scripture , which is so evident a consequence , that nothing but shame would make you deny it . Touching Almayn's and Gerson's reading compelleret for commoveret , his Lordship saith , That Almayn falsifies the Text notoriously ; you say , No ; but you had rather charitably think , they both read it so in some Copies ; his Lordship produceth a very ancient M.S. for the common reading , you none at all for that , but only the concurrent Testimonies of some Schoolmen , who must be confessed to be excellent Criticks , and well versed in ancient M.SS. unless where they met with a little Greek , or some hard Latin words ; and among whom , the mistake of one would pass current for want of examining Copies , let the Reader therefore judge , whether Judgement be more probable : But , I think it not worth while to say more about it . In your vindication of the Authority of Canus , you make use of a very silly piece of Sophistry ; for , say you , Though he make Infidels and Novices in the Faith , to be convinced by the Authority of the Church ; yet , you say , It doth not follow , that he makes the said Authority a fallible , but a certain and sure way to make them believe it . But , 1. The Question is , Whether Canus doth understand that place of S. Augustine , of Infidels and Novices or no ? 2. Suppose he sayes , It is a sure way , Doth it therefore follow , that it is an infallible way ? Is nothing certain but what is infallible ? I hope you are certain that the Church of Rome is the Cacholick Church ; but , Are you infallible that she is so ? If you advance all certainty to Infallibility , or bring down all Infallibility to Certainty , every Christian is as infallible as your Church is : For , I make no question , but that every good Christian is certain of the Grounds and Principles of his Religion . The same thing you return upon again ( after to little purpose you multiply words about Canus and Stapleton's Testimonies . ) For , say you , because S. Augustine speaks of a sure way , therefore he must mean an infallible way , as though what was not supernaturally infallible , was presently unsure . I pray , tell me , Are you sure that two and two make four ? Yet , I hope you will not say , You are supernaturally infallible that they do so . I hope , you are sure , there is a Pope at Rome , and a goodly Colledge of Cardinals there ; but , Are you infallible in this ? It is not then certainly the same , to deny a thing to be infallible , and to make it unsure : And , you are either very weak , or very wilful , in saying so . In what sense this so much controverted place of S. Augustine , is to be understood , will be afterwards discussed ; and whether it be intended wholly for Infidels or no : only I shall take notice now , how , in the last words of this Chapter , you would again inferr Infallibility from undoubted certainty . For , say you , the Church , in S. Augustine's time , esteemed her self undoubtedly certain , that the Gospel was the infallible Word of God ; for otherwise she might be deceived her self , and deceive others in commanding them to believe that to be God's Word , which was only the word of man : But , What is it you would inferr from all this ? For we believe the Church as undoubtedly certain , as may be , that the Scriptures are God's Word ; yet we are far enough from believing that her Testimony now is supernaturally infallible . CHAP. VII . The Protestant Way of resolving Faith. Several Principles premised in order to it . The distinct Questions set down , and their several Resolution given . The Truth of matters of fact , the Divinity of the Doctrine , and of the Books of Scripture , distinctly resolved into their proper grounds . Moral Certainty a sufficient Foundation for Faith , and yet Christian Religion proved to be infallibly True. How Apostolical Tradition made by his Lordship a Foundation of Faith. Of the certainty we have of the Copies of Scripture , and the Authority of them . S. Augustine's Testimony concerning Church-Authority , largely discussed and vindicated . Of the private Spirit , and the necessity of Grace . His Lordship's Way of resolving Faith vindicated . How far Scripture may be said to be known by its own Light. The several Testimonies of Bellarmine , Brierly , and Hooker , cleared . HAving thus far followed you through all your intricacies and windings , and shewed , with what diligence and subtilty you would juggle men out of their Faith , under a pretence of Infallibility ; it will be necessary for the vindicating our Doctrine , and the clearing this important Controversie with all evidence and perspicuity , to lay down those certain grounds which we build our Faith upon . And , although it be one of the greatest of your Modern Artifices to perswade the world , that Protestants have no certain grounds of Faith at all , yet I doubt not but to make it evident , that the way taken by the most judicious and considerative Protestants , is as satisfactory and reasonable , as I have already made it appear , that yours is unreasonable and ridiculous . Which I shall the rather do , because , through the want of a clear and distinct apprehension of the true way of resolving Faith , no Controversie in Religion hath been more obscure and involved , than this hath been . Therefore for our more distinct method of proceeding , I shall first endeavour to prevent misunderstanding , by premising several things which are necessary for a through opening the state of the Controversie , and then come to the resolution of it . The things then I would premise , are these following : 1. That we enquire not after the reason , why we assent to what is divinely revealed , but after the reason why we believe any thing to be a Divine Revelation . Therefore when men speak of the last resolution of Faith into the Veracity of God revealing , they speak that which is undoubtedly true , but it reacheth not our present enquiry . I freely grant , that the ultimate reason why any thing is believed , is upon the Testimony of him from whom it comes ; and the greater the knowledge and fidelity is , of him whose Testimony I believe , the stronger my Assent is , supposing I have sufficient evidence that it is his Testimony . But that is our present Question , for it being taken for granted among all Christians , that God's Testimony is absolutely infallible , there can no dispute arise concerning the ground of resolving Faith , supposing God's Revelation to be sufficiently known . For no one questions but God's Veracity however discovered , is a sufficient ground for Faith ; but all the Question is , How we come to know wherein this Veracity of God doth discover it self ; or what those things are which are immediately revealed by him . Therefore to tell us , that the resolution of Faith is into Gods Infallible Testimony , without shewing on what account this testimony is to be beleeved to be from God , is , to tell us that which no one doubts of , and to escape that which is the main question . For in case Isaac should have denyed submission to his Fathers will when he went to be sacrificed , till he could be satisfied concerning the lawfulness of that action which his Father went about ; Do you think it had been satisfactory to him , if Abraham had told him , that God had power to relax his own Laws , and therefore he need not question the lawfulness of the action ; might not Isaac have presently answered , That he did not question , that what God commanded was lawful , but that he desired , was , some evidence that he had a revelation for what he did . And the answer to this had been only pertinent and satisfactory . So that he might have no reason to question it , although he did not believe any thing more then common fidelity in his Fathers testimony . For God never ( when revelations were most common ) thought it necessary to multiply revelations so far , as to make one necessary to attest another ; but that revelation which was communicated to one was obligatory to all concerned in it , though they could have nothing but Moral certainty for it . By this it appears , that when we now speak of the resolution of Faith , though the utmost reason of our assent , is , that Infallibility which is supposed in Divine Testimony , yet the nearest and most proper resolution of it , is , into the grounds inducing us to believe that such a Testimony is truly Divine , and the resolution of this cannot be into any Divine Testimony without a process in infinitum . 2. That when we speak of the resolution of Faith , by Faith we understand a rational and discursive act of the mind . For Faith being an assent upon evidence , or reason inducing the mind to assent , it must be a rational and discursive act ; and such a one that one may be able to give an account of to another . And this account which men are able to give why they do believe , or on what ground they do it , is that which we call resolving Faith. And by this it appears , that whatever resolves Faith into its efficient cause , ( which some improperly call the Testimony of the spirit ) though it may be true , yet comes not home to the question . For if by the Testimony of the spirit be meant that operation of the spirit whereby saving Faith is wrought in us , then it gives no account from the thing to be believed , why we assent to it , but only shews how Faith is wrought in us by way of efficiency ; which is rather resolving the question about the necessity of Grace than the grounds of Faith. Our question is not then , concerning the necessity of infused habits of Grace , but of those rational inducements which do incline the mind to a firm assent . For Faith in us , however it is wrought , being a perswasion of the mind , it is not conceivable how there should be any discursive act of the mind , without some reason causing the mind to assent to what is propounded to it . For without this , Faith would be an unaccountable thing , and the spirit of revelation would not be the spirit of wisdom ; and Religion would be exposed to the contempt of all unbelievers , if we were able to give no other account of Faith , then that it is wrought in us by the Spirit of God. When we speak therefore of the resolving Faith , we mean , what are the rational inducements to believe , or what evidence there is in the object propounded to make us firmly assent to it . 3. According to the different acts of Faith , there must be assigned a different resolution of Faith. For every act being rational and discursive , must have its proper grounds belonging to it ; unless we suppose that act elicited without any reason for it , which is incongruous with the nature of the humane understanding . There are then in the question of resolution of Faith , these three questions to be resolved . First , Why I believe those things to be true which are contained in the Book called the Scripture ? 2. Why I believe the Doctrine contained in that Book to be Divine ? 3. Why I believe the Books themselves to be of Divine revelation ? Now every one of these questions admits of a different way of resolution ; as will appear by the handling each of them distinctly . 1. If I be asked , On what grounds I believe the things to be true which are contained in Scripture ? my answer must be , From the greatest evidence of truth , which things of that nature are capable of . If therefore the persons who are supposed to have writ these things , were such who were fully acquainted with what they writ of ; if they were such persons who cannot be suspected of any design to deceive men by their writings ; and if I be certain that these which go under the name of their writings , are undoubtedly theirs ; I must have sufficient grounds to believe the truth of them . Now that the writers of these things cannot be suspected of ignorance , appears by the time and age they writ in , when the story of these things was new , and such multitudes were willing enough to have contradicted it , if any thing had beeen amiss : besides , some of the writers had been intimately conversant with the person and actions of him whom they writ most of . That they could have no intent to deceive , appears from the simplicity and candour both of their actions and writings , from their contempt of the world , and exposing themselves to the greatest hazards to bear witness to them . That these are the very same writings , appears by all the evidence can be desired ; For we have as great , if not much greater reason to believe them to be the Authors of the Books under their Names , than any other writers of any Books whatsoever , both because the matters are of greater moment , and therefore men might be supposed more inquisitive about them ; and that they have been unanimously received for 〈◊〉 from the very time of their being first written , ( except some very few , which upon strict examination were admitted too ) and we find these very Books cited by the learned Christians under these Names in that time , when it had been no difficulty to have found out several of the Original Copy's themselves . When therefore they were universally received by Christians , never doubted of by Jews , or Heathen Philosophers : we have as great evidence for this first act of Faith , as it is capable of . And he is unreasonable who desires more . 2. If I be asked , why I believe the Doctrine contained in these Books to be Divine ? I must give in two things for answer . 1. That in the Age when the Doctrine was delivered , there was sufficient reason to believe it Divine . 2. That if there was sufficient reason then , we have sufficient reason now . 1. That in the Age when the Doctrine was delivered , there was sufficient reason to believe it Divine ; Supposing then , that we already believe upon the former answer , that all the matters of fact be true , I answer , that if Christ did such unparalle●d miracles , and rose from the dead , they who heard his Doctrine had reason to believe it to be of God : and this I suppose the greatest Infidel would not deny , if himself had been one of the witnesses of his actions and resurection . 2. That if they had reason then , we have so now ; because tradition to us doth only supply the want of our senses , as to what Christ did and spake ; i. e. That tradition is a kind of derivative and perpetuated sensation to us ; it being of the same use to us now which our eyes and ears had been , if we had been actually present when Christ delivered his Doctrine and wrought his Miracles . Which that we may better understand , we may consider what the use of our senses had been , if we had been then present ; and consequently what the use of tradition is now to us . Now it is apparent , that the use of the senses , to those who saw the Miracles and heard the Doctrine of Christ , was not to give any credibility to either of them , but only to be the means of conveying to them those things which might induce them to believe ; the same doth tradition now to us , it doth not in it self make the Doctrin more credible , but supplies the use of our senses in a certain conveyance of those things to us which were the motives to believe then . For the motives to Faith both to them and us are the same , only the manner of conveyance is different ; but our case is much the same with those who lived in the same Age , but by reason of distance of place could not be personally present at what Christ did or said ; now if those persons were obliged to believe , and had sufficient reason for Faith , who by reason of distance of place could not exercise their senses about Christs Doctrine and Miracles , the same reason and obligation have we , who cannot do it by reason of distance of time . And if there be any advantage on either side , it is on ours , because though the tradition doth not in it self give any credibility to the Doctrine , yet there are such circumstances accompanying this tradition , which may much facilitate our belief above theirs : because by such a continued tradition we have an evidence of the efficacy of this Doctrine , which had so continual a power as to engage so many in all ages since its first appearance to be the propagators and defenders of it . And therefore this hath very much the advantage of the report of any credible persons in that age , who might report to any at distance the Miracles and Doctrine of Christ. And this is the way of resolution of Faith , which the Scripture it self directs us to . How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation , which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord , and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him : God also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders , and with diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost , according to his own will ? Where we plainly see , the resolution of Faith as to the Divinity of the Doctrine was into the Miracles wrought for the confirmation of it ( which was the proper witness or testimony of the Holy Ghost ) but the means of conveyance was by the tradition of those who were eye and ear-witnesses of what Christ said or did . As therefore it was not supposed necessary for them who saw the miracles of Christ , either to have some inward Testimony of the Spirit , or some external Infallible Testimony of the Church , to assure them that these miracles were really done by Christ , but God left them to the judgement of sense ; so proportionably neither of those two is now necessary for the resolution of our Faith , but God instead of the judgement of sense leaves us to the evidence of Tradition . Object . But all this is ( you say ) no more then Moral certainty , which being fallible , we cannot from thence be assured that Christian Religion is Infallibly true ? Answ. This being the great bug-bear wherewith you would fright men out of their Religion , I shall in this place shew , that it serves only to scare fools and children with . For , 1. What greater certainty had they who lived in the time of Christ and his Apostles , and did not see their Miracles ? Had they , or could they have , any more than this you call moral Certainty ? and , Do you really think , that all such could not be sufficiently assured , that Christian Religion was infallibly true ? 2. Moral Certainty may be a sufficient Foundation for the most firm Assent ; and therefore , if the matter to be believed be the infallible Truth of a Doctrine upon suitable evidence , though we have now but moral Certainty of that evidence , the Assent may be firm to such a Doctrine as infallible . And therefore the grand mistake lyes here , as though our Faith were resolved finally into this moral Certainty ; or , as if the Faith of those who saw Christ's Miracles , were resolved into their eyes , and not into the Miracles ; for as their eyes were but the means of conveyance of that evidence which was infallible , so is that Tradition to us by which we have our Certainty of those evidences of the infallible Truth of Christian Religion . And we are further to consider that the nature of Certainty is not so much to be taken from the matters themselves , as from the grounds inducing the Assent ; that is , Whether the things be Mathematical , Physical , or Moral ; if there be no reason to question the grounds of belief , the case is all one as to the nature of the Assent . So that moral Certainty may be as great as Mathematical and Physical , supposing as little reason to doubt in moral things as to their natures , as in Mathematical and Physical as to theirs . Therefore this great quarrel about moral Certainty is very unreasonable ; unless it be proved , that there is no cause of firm Assent upon moral grounds ; now , if the cause of the Assent may be , as equal and proportionable to their nature in moral things , as in Mathematical ; there may be as firm an Assent in the One , as in the Other , as I have already shewed . For which , this reason is plain and evident , that Certainty implies the taking away all suspicion of doubt : But there can be no taking away all suspicion of doubt in Mathematical things , without Mathematical evidence ; but in moral things , all suspicion of doubt is removed upon moral evidence , and therefore the Certainty may be as great in the Assent to one as the other . Thus , we see , how unjustly , and how much to the dishonour of Religion you quarrel with moral evidence , as an uncertain thing . But , I answer yet further , 3. That the greatest assurance we can desire , that any Religion is infallibly True , is from moral Certainty ; and that upon these three grounds . 1. Because the grounds of all Religion are capable of no more . 2. Because the highest evidence of any Religion must depend upon it . 3. Because this , in it self , may evidently demonstrate , that Christian Religion is infallibly True. 1. There can be no greater than this moral Certainty of the main Foundations of all Religion , which are , The Being of God , and Immortality of souls ; without the supposition of which , there can be no such thing as Infallibility in the world ; and therefore from thence I may easily prove , that there can be no more than moral Certainty of the existence of a Deity . For , if the very notion of Infallibility doth suppose a God , then you cannot infallibly prove that there is One ( in your sense of Infallibility ) for then you must beg the Question , and suppose that already to be , which you are proving the existence of : Now that , Infallibility in us doth suppose the existence of God , appears most evidently , because , mans understanding being of it self fallible , it cannot be supposed in any thing infallible , without the supernatural Assistance of a being Infallible , which can be nothing else but God. But , if you think you have infallible proofs , produce them , and convince the world of Atheists by them : We acknowledge we have as great evidence and certainty , as humane nature is capable of , of a Being of such a Nature as God is , from the consideration of his works ; but all this still is moral Certainty ; for the grounds are neither Mathematically demonstrative , nor supernaturally infallible . What folly and madness then is it for your party to cry out so much against moral Certainty in Religion , when the Foundation of all Religion is capable of no more ; And may not this justly increase our suspicion , that under moral Certainty you strike at the Foundation of all Religion ? 2. Suppose God gives the most infallible evidence of any Religion , it is not possible , but that some who are bound to believe that Religion , can have any more than moral Certainty of it . And , for all that , I know the greatest Physical Certainty is as liable to question as moral ; there being as great a possibility of Deception in that , as a suspicion of doubt in this , and oft-times greater . What advantage then had those who stood by , and saw the miracles of Moses and Christ , above those who did not , but had the report of them conveyed to them in an unquestionable manner ? Besides , it is apparent , God's great aim in any Religion , is most at the good of those who can have only a moral Certainty of the great evidences of the Truth of that Religion ; because it being God's intention , that the Religion delivered by Him , should be not meerly for the benefit of those very few persons who could be present at such things , but for the advantage of those incomparably greater numbers , who , by reason of distance of place and age , could not be present ; it would argue a strange want of provision for mens Faith , unless moral Certainty were sufficient . Only you indeed will suppose that which God himself never thought necessary , viz. an infallible Testimony of the present Church ; but to what good purposes you have introduced this , hath largely appeared already . 3. Moral Certainty yields us sufficient Assurance , that Christian Religion is infallibly true : And that I prove , because moral Certainty may evidently shew us the Credibility of the Christian Religion , which you deny not , nor any else ; and , that from the Credibility of it , the infallible Truth of it may be proved , will appear by these two things : 1. That where there is evident Credibility in the matter propounded , there doth arise upon men an obligation to believe : And that is proved both by your own confession ( as to the Churches Infallibility being believed on the Motives of Credibility ) and from Gods intention , in giving such Motives , which was , to perswade them to believe , as appears by multitudes of places of Scripture ; and withall , though the meer Credibility of the Motives might at first suppose some doubts concerning the Infallibility of the Doctrine , yet it is not consistent with any doubt , as to the Infallibility of the obligation to believe ; because there can be no other reason assigned of these Motives of Credibility , than the inducing on men an obligation to Faith. 2. That where there is such an obligation to believe , we have the greatest assurance , that the matter to be believed is infallibly True : Which depends upon this manifest proof , That God cannot oblige men to believe a lye ; it being repugnant to all our conceptions of the Veracity and Goodness of God , to imagine , that God should require from men ( on the pain of eternal damnation , for not believing ) to believe something as infallibly True , which is really false . Thus , you see , what a clear and pregnant demonstration we have of the infallible Truth of Christian Religion from moral Certainty ; How injurious then have those of your party been , who have charged this opinion of believing upon moral Certainty , with betraying Religion , and denying Christian Religion to be infallibly True. Thus much for this grand Objection ; I now come to the last Question considerable in the Resolution . 3. On what account do I believe these particular Books of Scripture to be Gods Word ? Which may admit of a double sense : 1. On what account I do believe the Doctrine contained in these Books to be Gods Word ? 2. On what account I do believe the Books containing this Doctrine to be Gods Word ? As to the first , I have answered already , viz. Upon the same rational evidence which God gave , that the Testimony of those who delivered , was a Divine and infallible Testimony : To the second , I answer in these two Propositions : 1. That the last Resolution of Faith is not into the Infallibility of the Instrument of conveyance , but into the Infallibility of that Doctrine , which is thereby conveyed to us . For the writing of this Doctrine is only the condition by which this Revelation is made manifest to us ; it being evident from the nature of the thing , that the writing of a Divine Revelation , is not necessary for the ground and reason of Faith , as to that Revelation : because men may believe a Divine Revelation without it ; as is not only evident in the case of the Patriarchs , but of all those , who in the time of Christ , and the Apostles , did believe the truth of the Doctrin of Christ before it was written . If therefore the writing be only the condition of the manifestation of the Object in a certain way to us , the ground and reason of Faith , is not to be resolved into that which is only the mode of our knowledge of the Object to be believed ; but into that which is properly the ground and reason why we believe that Doctrine or Revelation to be Divine , which is contained in those Books . And this is still the case of all illiterate persons , who cannot resolve their Faith properly into the Scripture , but into the Doctrine delivered them out of Scripture . Hence we may discern the difference between the Formal Object , and the Rule of Faith ; the Formal Object is that evidence which is given of the Infallibility of the Testimony of those who delivered the Doctrine ; the infallible Rule of Faith to us , is the Scripture , viz. that which limits and bounds the material Objects of Faith , which we are bound to believe ; and this doth therefore discover to us what those things are , which on the account of the Formal Object , we are obliged to believe . 2. Those who believe the Doctrine of Scripture to be Divine , have no reason to question the infallible conveyance of that Doctrine to us , in those Books we call the Scripture . Therefore , whatever things we are to believe in order to salvation , we have as great evidence as we can desire , that they are infallibly conveyed to us . 1. If the Doctrine of Christ be True and Divine , then all the Promises be made were accomplished : Now , that was one of the greatest , That his Spirit should lead his Apostles into all Truth ; Can we then reasonably think , that if the Apostles had such an infallible Assistance of the Spirit of God with them , in what they spake in a transitory way to them who heard them , that they should want it in the delivering those Records to the Church , which were to be the standing monuments of this Doctrine to all Ages and Generations . If Christ's Doctrine therefore be True , the Apostles had an infallible Assistance of God's Spirit ; if they had so in delivering the Doctrine of Christ by preaching , nothing can be more unreasonable , than to imagine such should want it , who were employed to give an account to the world of the nature of this Doctrine , and of the Miracles which accompanied Christ and his Apostles . So that it will appear an absurd thing to assert , that the Doctrine of Christ is Divine , and to question , whether we have the infallible Records of it . It is not pertinent to our Question , in what way the Spirit of God assisted them that wrote , Whether by immediate suggestion of all such things which might be sufficiently known without it ; and whether in some things which were not of concernment , it might not leave them to their own judgement ; ( as in that place , When they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs , when , no doubt , God's Spirit knew infallibly whether it was , but thought not fit to reveal it ) whether in some lighter circumstances the Writers were subject to any inadvertencies ( the negative of which is more piously credible ) whether meer historical passages needed the same infallible Assistance , that Prophetical and Doctrinal ; these things , I say , are not necessary to be resolved , it being sufficient in order to Faith , that the Doctrine we are to believe , as it was infallibly delivered to the world , by the preaching of Christ and his Apostles , so it is infallibly conveyed to us in the Books of Scripture . 2. Because these Books were owned for Divine by those Persons and Ages , who were most competent Judges , Whether they were so or no. For the Age of the Apostles was sufficiently able to judge , whether those things which are said to be spoken by Christ , or written by the Apostles , were really so or no. And we can have no reason at all to question , but what was delivered by them , was infallibly true . Now , from that first Age we derive our knowledge concerning the Authority of these Books , which being conveyed to us in the most unquestionable and universal Tradition , we can have no reason in the world to doubt , and therefore the greatest reason firmly to assent , that the Books we call the Scripture , are the infallible Records of the Word of God. And thus much may suffice in general concerning the Protestant Way of resolving Faith : I now return to the examination of what you give us by way of answer to his Lordship's discourse . The first Assault you make upon his Lordship , is , for making Apostolical Tradition a ground of Faith , but because your peculiar excellency lyes in the involving plain things ; the best service I can do , is to lay things open as they are ; by which means we shall easily discern where the truth lyes . I shall therefore first shew , how far his Lordship makes Apostolical Tradition a ground of Faith , and then consider what you have to object against it . In that Section which your Margent referrs to , all that he sayes of it , is , That the Voice and Tradition of that Church which included in it Apostles , Disciples , and such as had immediate Revelation from Heaven , was Divine , and the Word of God from them is of like validity written or delivered . And , as to this Tradition ( he saith ) there is abundance of Certainty in it self , but how far it is evident to us , shall after appear . At the end of the next n. 21. he saith , That there is double Authority , and both Divine , that confirms Scripture to be the Word of God. Tradition of the Apostles delivering it , and the internal worth and argument in the Scripture , obvious to a soul prepared by the present Churches Tradition , and Gods Grace . But , n. 23. he saith , That this Apostolical Tradition is not the sole and only means to prove Scripture Divine , but the moral perswasion , reason , and force of the present Church , is ground enough for any one to read the Scripture , and esteem reverently of it . And this once done , the Scripture hath then In and home-arguments enough to put a soul that hath but ordinary Grace , out of doubt , that the Scripture is the Word of God , infallible and Divine . I suppose his Lordships meaning may be comprized in these particulars . 1. That to those who lived in the Apostolical times the Tradition of Scripture , by those who had an infallible Testimony , was a sufficient ground of their believing it infallibly true . 2. That though the conveyance of that Tradition to us be not infallible , yet it may be sufficient to raise in us a high esteem and veneration for the Scripture . 3. That those who have this esteem for the Scripture , by a through studying and consideration of it may undoubtedly believe that Scripture is the Divine and Infallible Word of God. This I take to be the substance of his Lordships discourse . We now come to examine what you object against him . Your first demand is , How comes Apostolical Primitive Tradition to work upon us , if the present Church be fallible ? Which I shall answer by another , How come the decrees of Councils to work upon you , if the reporters of those Decrees be fallible ? If you say , It is sufficient that the Decree it self be infallible , but it is not necessary that the reporter of those Decrees should be so ; The same I say concerning the Apostolical Tradition of Scripture , though it were infallible in their Testimony , yet it is not necessary that the conveyance of it to us should be infallible . And if you think your self bound to believe the Decrees of General Councils as infallible , though fallibly conveyed to you ; Why may not we say the same concerning Apostolical Tradition ? Whereby you may see , though Tradition be fallible , yet the matter conveyed by it , may have its proper effect upon us . Your next Inquiry ( if I understand it ) is to this sense , Whether Apostolical Tradition be not then as credible as the Scriptures ? I answer freely ( supposing it equally evident ) what was delivered by the Apostles to the Church by word or writing , hath equal Credibility ? You attempt to prove , That there is equal evidence , because the Scripture is only known by the Tradition of the Church , to be the same that was recommended by the Apostolical Church , which you have likewise for Apostolical Tradition . But , 1. Do you mean the same Apostolical Tradition here or no , which the Arch-Bishop speaks of , i. e. that act of the Apostles , whereby they delivered the Doctrine of Christ upon their Testimony to the world . If you mean this Tradition , for my part , I do not understand it as any thing really distinct from the Tradition of the Scripture it self . For , although I grant , that the Apostles did deliver that Doctrine by Word as well as Writing , yet if that Tradition by Word had been judged sufficient , I much question whether we had ever had any written Records at all . But , because of the speedy decay of an oral Tradition , if there had been no standing Records , it pleased God in his infinite Wisdom and Goodness , to stir up some fit persons to digest those things summarily into writing , which otherwise would have been exposed to several corruptions in a short time . For we see presently in the Church , notwithstanding this , how suddenly the Gnosticks , Valentinians , Manichees and others , did pretend some secret Tradition of Christ or his Apostles distinct from their writings . When therefore you can produce as certain evidence any Apostolical Tradition distinct from Scripture , as we can do , that the Books of Scripture were delivered by the Apostles to the Church , you may then be hearkened to , but not be before . 2. We have other waies to judge of the Identity of the Copies of Scripture ( which we have ) with those delivered by the Primitive Church , besides the Testimony of the present Church . And the judgement of the present Church considered meerly as such can be no argument to secure any man concerning the integrity and incorruption of the Books of Scripture . We do therefore justly appeal to the ancient Copies , and M. SS . which confirm the incorruption of ours . But , say you , What infallible Certainty have we of them , besides Church Tradition ? Very wisely said in several respects , as though no Certainty less than infallible , could serve mens turn as to ancient Copies of Scripture , and as though your Church could give men Infallible certainty which Copy's were ancient and which were not . But for our parts , we should not be at all nearer any certainty much less Infallibility concerning the authenticalness of any ancient Copy's , because your Church declared it self for them ; neither can we imagine it at all necessary in the examination of ancient Copy's to have any Infallible certainty at all of them . For as well you may pretend it as to any other Authours , when all that we look after in such Copy's is only that evidence which things of that nature are capable of . But you make his Lordship give as wise an answer to this question of yours ; They may be examined and approved by the authentical Autographa's of the very Apostles . Where is it that this answer is given by his Lordship ? If you may be allowed to make questions and answers too , no doubt , the one will be as wise as the other . But I suppose you thought , nothing could be said pertinent in this case , but what you make his Lordship say : and then by the unreasonableness of that answer , because none of these Autographa's are supposed extant , and because if they were so , all men could not be Infallibly certain of them , you think you have sufficient advantage against your adversary , because thereby it would appear there can be no certainty of Scripture but from the authority of your Church . To which because it may seem to carry on your great design of rendring Religion uncertain , I shall return a particular answer . 1. Supposing we could have no certainty concerning the Copy's of Scripture but from Tradition , this doth not at all advantage your cause , unless you could prove , that no other Tradition but that of your Church can give us any certainty of it . Give me leave then to make this supposition , That God might not have given this supernatural assistance to your Church , which you pretend makes it Infallible , Whether men through the Vniversal consent of persons of the Christian Church in all Ages , might not have been undoubtedly certain , That the Scripture we have , was the same delivered by the Apostles ? i. e. Whether a matter of fact , in which the whole Christian world was so deeply engaged , that not only their credit , but their interest was highly concerned in it , could not be attested by them in a credible manner ? Which is as much as to ask , Whether the whole Christian world was not at once besotted and infatuated in ●he grossest manner , so as to suffer the records of those things which concerned their eternal welfare , to be imbezeled , falsified , or corrupted , so as to mistake them for Apostolical writings , which were nothing so . If it be not then credible , that the Christian world should be so monstrously imposed upon , and so grosly deceived , then certainly the Vniversal Tradition of the Society may yield unquestionable evidence to any inquisitive person , as to the integrity and incorruption of the body of Scriptures . And if it may yield such evidence , why doth it not so ? when we see this was the very case of the Christian world in all Ages . Some writings were delivered to the Church of the Age they lived in , by the Apostles ; these writings were so delivered , as that the Christians understood they were of things of more concernment to them than the whole world was ; these writings were then received , embraced , and publickly read ; these writings were preserved by them so sacred and inviolable , that it was accounted a crime of the highest nature to deliver the Copy's of them into the hands of the Heathen persecutors ; these writings were still owned by them as Divine , and the rule and standard of Faith , these were appealed to in all disputes among them , these were preserved from the attempts of Hereticks , vindicated from the assaults of the most learned Infidels , transcribed into the Books of the most diligent Christians , transmitted from one Generation to another , as the most sacred depositum of Heaven ; And yet is it possible , to suppose that these writings should be extorted out of their hands by violence , abused under their eyes by fraud , or suffered to be lost by negligence . Yet no other way can be imagined , why any should suspect the Books of Scripture which we have are not the same with those delivered by the Apostles . All which are such unreasonable suppositions , that they could hardly enter into any head but yours , or such whose cause you manage in these disputes ; the most profligate Atheists , or most unreasonable Scepticks . If then we entertain but mean and ordinary thoughts of the Christians of all Ages , if we look upon them as silly men abused into a Religion by fraud and imposture ; yet we cannot doubt , but that these persons were careful to preserve the records of that Religion , because they were so diligent in the study of it , so venturous for it , such enemies to the corrupters of it , so industrious in propagating the knowledge of it to their friends and Posterity . Do you think our Nation did ever want an Infallible Testimony to preserve the Magna Charta , supposing no authentick record of it kept in the Publick Archives of the Nation ? Would not mens interest make them careful to preserve it inviolable , especially considering the frequency of causes whose decision depends upon it , and the dispersion of the Copy's abroad , and the diligence of such whose profession leads them to look to such things . And will not the same reasons hold in a greater measure for the integrity and incorruption of Scriptures ? Do not the eternal Concerns of all Christians depend upon those sacred records , that , if those be not true , they were of all men most miserable ? Were not innumerable Copy's of these writings suddenly dispersed abroad , and all Christians accounted it a part of their Religion to search and enquire into them ? Hath there not alwayes been a succession of diligent and faithful persons , whose office and profession it hath been to read , interpret , and vindicate these Books ? and who have left excellent monuments of their endeavours in this nature ? Is it then possible to suppose all those Copy's at once imbezeled , all those Christians in one age deceived , all those Divines so secure and negligent that there should be any considerable alteration , much less any total depravation of these writings ? When once I see a whole Corporation consent to burn their publick Charter , and substitute a new one in the place of it , and this not be suspected or discovered ; When I shall see a Magna Charta foisted , and neither King nor people be sensible of such a Cheat ; When all the world shall conspire to deceive themselves and their children : I may then suspect such an imposture as to the Scripture ; but not before . And will not all this perswade you , that there is no necessity of making your Church Infallible in order to our certainty , that we have the same books of Scripture which were delivered by the Apostles ? If not , the next news I shall expect to hear from you , will be , That we can have no certainty of the Being of God , or the Foundation of all Religion , but from your Churches Infallibility ; there being every jot as much reason to say , that all mankind should be deceived into the belief of a Deity by some cunning Politicians , as that all Christians should be deceived as to the belief of such Books to be Scripture which were universally corrupted ; and if you understood Consequences you would have urged one assoon as the other . But still remember , into what precipices this good doctrine of Infallibility leads you . But it may be your meaning is more gentle and easie , than to suppose there could be no certainty as to all the Books being the same , but only that we cannot have any Infallible certainty that there are no corruptions crept into these Books which we have , but from your Churches Testimony . To which I answer , 1. That there is no reason to suppose this should be your meaning . 2. Supposing it were your meaning , there is no reason in the thing . 1. There is no reason to suppose this should be your meaning ; for you are speaking of such things which are necessary to be believed , and therefore are properly objects of Faith , but that there are no kind of corruptions crept into the Copy's of Scripture , cannot with you be an object of Faith. For those of your party do some of them confess and others contend , that there are many corruptions crept into the Hebrew Text of the Old Testament , and the Greek of the New ; and that there are abundance of corruptions in your Vulgar Latin is not only abundantly proved by our Writers , but acknowledged by the learnedst of your own , and irrefragably demonstrated by the different editions of Sixtus and Clement . Suppose this were your meaning , there were no reason in the thing ; For , 1. Your Church cannot Infallibly assure us , there are no corruptions . 2. We may be sufficiently assured of it without the Testimony of your Church . 1. Your Church cannot assure us at all , much less Infallibly that there are no such corruptions . For what reason can there be , Why we should rely on the judgement of only a part of the whole Society of Christians , and that part at great opposition with many other considerable Churches ; must we then believe your Church where it agrees with , or it differs from the rest ? If only where it agrees with the rest , then it is not the testimony of your Church we rely on , but the Vniversal consent of all : If where it differs , shew us some reason , why we should believe your Church in opposition to all others . Especially , 1. When we consider what contradiction there hath been in the testimony of your Church about this very thing : as appears not only by the great difference among your writers concerning the authentick Copy's , some still defending the Hebrew and Greek Texts , and others standing up for that great Diana of Rome the Vulgar Latin. Considering then , that by the decree of the Council of Trent the Vulgar Latin is looked on by you as the most authentick Copy of the Scripture , let any one judge whether ever this could be judged more authentick , than when the Pope himself in Cathedrâ doth revise any edition of it , and use all possible care for the setting of it forth , not only comparing it with the best ancient MS S. but taking the pains to correct it with his own hand both before and after the press , and all this was done by Sixtus 5. as himself declares in the Preface to his edition of the Vulgar Latin , A.D. 1590. Yet within little more then two years after comes out the edition of Clement 8. which , as appears by the computation of such who have taken the pains to compare them , differs from the other in some thousands of places . Now I pray tell me what Infallible certainty are we like to have concerning the Copy's of Scripture , being the same with those delivered by the Apostles , from the Infallibility of your Church , when this testimony of your Church doth so finely contradict it self within little more then two years time . Nay when Sixtus 5. his care was so great and extraordinary in his edition , that an Inscription was made in the Vatican , in perpetuam rei memoriam , which is in letters of Gold in these words , SACRAM PAGINAM EX CONCILII TRIDENTINI PRAESCRIPTO QVAM EMENDATISSIMAM DIVVLGARI MANDAVIT . Which Inscription , as Angelus Roccha tells us , was purposely made to set forth that infinite care and pains which the Pope took in that edition , Which were so great ( saith he ) that it is impossible that any should recount them , and for his own part he stood astonished when he saw them : for he not only carefully corrected the Copy before the Impression , but reviewed it sheet by sheet after , that the edition might be the more faithful . And shall we after all this believe that Sixtus 5. never lived to see this edition compleat , which is the miserable shift some of your party have to avoid this evident contradiction : Or shall we think , what others pretend , That he never lived to authorize this Edition of his , whereas his Brieve doth in terms declare this to be the authentick vulgar Latin , which the Decree of the Council of Trent had respect to ; but this Brieve , others say , though provided was never proclaimed ; It seems then the Popes Infallibility depends upon Proclamation , but was not this Bull sufficiently proclaimed which is extant in those editions of Sixtus 5 ? with an injunction that this Bible be read in all Churches ne minimâ quidem particulâ , mutatâ , additâ , vel detractâ , without any the least alteration . Now then when the Vulgar Latin is owned by the Council of Trent for the authentick Copy of Scripture ; when the Pope whose testimony must be supposed Infallible takes great pains in prosecution of the decree of that Council to declare and set forth the true authentick edition of this Vulgar Latin , When should we ever , if not now , expect some Infallible certainty of the true Copy of the Scripture ? yet so far are we from it , that not long after men are forbidden the use of that edition under the penalty of the greater Excommunication . And all this , forsooth , under the pretence of Typographical faults , and what then must we think of that Pope who took such incessant pains to correct them ? Thus we see how far we are from any certainty at all , much more from any Infallible certainty concerning the true Copy's of Scripture from the authority of your Church . 2. The authenticalness of those Copy's set forth by the appointment of the Council of Trent and the approbation of the Pope , hath no greater evidence of certainty than any other Copy's of Scripture , if they have so much . For all that Sixtus 5. pretends for the authenticalness of that Copy , is , the agreement of it with the ancient and approved Copy's both Printed and MSS. which he had caused to be diligently searched in Libraries , Than which , ( saith he ) there can be no more firm or certain argument of the true and genuine text . Well said however in this ! But if the Latin Copy's be so sure a rule to judge of the authenticalness of the Text by , shall not much more the ancient Copy's of the Original Hebrew and Greek ; especially when we consider , that the vast difference of the Clementine and Sixtine Bibles lay in this , that Clement the 8. did correct the Vulgar Latin according to the original in above two thousand places , when the contrary reading was established by Sixtus . For the Pope where he pleased took the Marginal Annotations in the Lovain Bibles and inserted them into the text ; which Marginal Annotations contain the different readings which were observed from the comparing the Vulgar Latin with the Originals , as appears by the Preface to the Lovain Bibles . And although the Pope ex Apostolicae potestatis plenitudine ( as Sixtus 5. phraseth it in the Bull before his Bibles ) did take and leave where he pleased himself , yet it is evident from those who have compared them , that above two thousand places are reformed according to the Originals ; and more then twice as many more might have been if his Holiness had thought good . For our industrious Dr. James , who had taken the pains accurately to compare not only the Sixtine Clementine Bibles , but the Clementine edition with the Lovain Annotations , doth in the defence of his Bellum Papale challenge Gretser the Jesuit to joyn issue with him if he dared on the point , viz. of making it appear that there were 10000. differences in the Lovain Annotations from the Vulgar Latin , and that these differences arise from the comparing it with the Hebrew , Greek , and Chaldee . Are we not then at a fine pass for our Infallible certainty concerning the Copies of Scripture , if the judgement of your Church must be relyed on ? Was that sufficient ground for Pope Clement to reform two thousand places , and would it not serve for all the rest ? If those were truer because they agreed more with the Originals , were not the rest so too ? And have not we the greatest reason to rely on the Originals when the Pope himself appeals to them , and reforms by them ? According then to the judgement of your pretended Infallible Church we have as great certainty as they , for certainly the Hebrew and Greek are as obvious to us as them ; and I never yet heard that your Popes did challenge to themselves among other Apostolical prerogatives the gift of tongues . 2. We may be sufficiently assured that there are no material corruptions in the Books of Scripture without your Churches testimony , not that we pretend the Apostles Autographa are still extant for us to compare our Copies with ( although some of your side tell us among other rarities of the Vatican , that the true ancient Greek text is there extant , which the Pope would do well to oblige the world with ) but we whose eyes are not blest with such noble sights as are there lockt up from all such who have not a good dose of implicite Faith about them , pretend to no such thing : but by the diligent comparing the present Copies with the most ancient MSS. by the observation of what Citations of Scripture are produced by those of the Fathers who lived when some of these Autographa were extant ( as it is apparent some were in Tertullians time , and some tell us that the authentick Apocalypse was preserved in the Church of Ephesus in Honorius his time ) by the diligence of the primitive writers in taking notice of the least attempt for falsification or corruption of the text ; For when Marcion began to clip and falsifie the text , Irenaeus presently takes notice of it and gives him a sufficient rebuke for it : and so doth Tertullian afterwards , and Epiphanius particularly takes notice of all those places which had violent hands laid upon them and rescues them from those impure attempts , so that we still enjoy them in their integrity . So that whatever endeavours were made , they were presently discovered , as that of the Arrians by St. Ambrose , that of Tatianus his Monotessaron by Theodoret. In so much , that Bellarmin himself confesseth ; Etsi multa depravare conati sunt haeretici , tamen nunquam defuerunt Catholici , qui corum corruptelas detexerint , & non permiserint libros sacros corrumpi . That the Catholicks were as vigilant as the Hereticks malicious , and therefore could never effect their design in corrupting the Scripture . Besides , it is observable , that among those multitudes of various lections in the New Testament , of which R. Stephen made a collection out of sixteen MSS. of 2384. ( which probably were occasioned by the general dispersion of Copies , and the multitudes of transcriptions by such as were either ignorant or careless ) yet there are none which are material , so as to entrench upon the integrity and authority of the Copies as a rule of Faith and Manners ; they are therefore but racings of the skin , but no wounds of any vital part . Abating therefore only what must necessarily be supposed in the multitudes of Copies transcribed , there is so great integrity and incorruption in those Copies we have , that we cannot but therein take notice of a peculiar hand of Divine Providence in preserving these authentick records of our Religion so safe to our dayes . But it is time now to return to you . You would therefore perswade us , That we have no ground of certainty as to the Copies of Scripture , but comparing them with the Apostles Autographa ; but I hope our former discourse hath given you a sufficient account of our certainty without seeing the Apostles own hands . But I pray what certainty then had the Jews after the Captivity , of their Copies of the Law ? yet I cannot think you will deny them any ground of certainty in the time of Christ that they had the true Copies both of the Law and the Prophets ; and I hope you will not make the Sanhedrin , which condemned our Saviour to death , to have given them their only Infallible certainty concerning it . If therefore the Jews might be certain without Infallibility , why may not we ? for if the Oracles of God were committed to the Jews then , they are to the Christians now . You yet further urge , That there can be no certainty concerning the Autographa's of the Apostles , but by tradition : And may not every universal tradition be carried up as clearly at least to the Apostles times , as the Scriptures , by most credible Authours , who wrote in their respective succeeding ages ? I answer , We grant there can be no certainty as to the Copies of Scripture but from tradition , and if you can name any of those great things in Controversie between us , which you will undertake to prove to be as universal a tradition ; as that of the Scriptures ; you and I shall not differ as to the belief of it . But think not to fob us off with the tradition of the present Church instead of the Church of all ages , with the tradition of your Church instead of the Catholick , with the ambiguous testimonies of two or three of the Fathers , instead of the universal consent of the Church since the Apostles times . If I should once see you prove the Infallibility of your Church , the Popes Supremacy , Invocation of Saints , Veneration of Images , the necessity of Coelibate in the Clergy , a punitive Purgatory , the lawfulness of communicating in one kind , the expediency of the Scriptures and Prayers being in an unknown tongue , the sacrifice of the Mass , Transubstantiation ( to name no mo●e ) by as unquestionable and universal a tradition as that whereby we receive the Scriptures , I shall extoll you for the only person that ever did any thing considerable on your side , and I shall willingly yield my self up as a Trophey to your brave attempts . Either then for ever forbear to mention any such things , as Vniversal Tradition among you as to any things , besides Scriptures , which carry a necessity with them of being believed or practised ; or once for all undertake this task , and manifest it as to the things in Controversie between us . Your next Paragraph ( besides what hath been already discussed in this Chapter concerning Apostolical tradition of Scripture ) empties it self into the old mare mortuum of the formal object and Infallible application of Faith , which I cannot think my self so much at leasure to follow you into , so often as you fall into it . When once you bring any thing that hath but the least resemblance of reason more than before , I shall afresh consider it , but not till then . What next follows concerning resolving Faith into prime Apostolical Tradition infallibly , without the Infallibility of the present Church , hath been already prevented by telling you , that his Lordship doth not say , That the infallible Resolution of Faith is into that Apostolical Tradition , but into the Doctrine which is conveyed in the Books of Scripture from the Apostles times down to us , by an unquestionable Tradition . Your stale Objection , That then we should want Divine Certainty , hath been over and over answered ; and so hath your next Paragraph , That if the Church be not infallible , we cannot be infallibly certain , that Scripture is Gods Word : and so the remainder concerning Canonical Books . It is an easie matter to write great Books after that rate , to swell up your discourses with needless repetitions ; but it is the misery that attends a bad cause , and a bad stomach , to have unconcocted things brought up so often , till we nauseate them . Your next offer is at the Vindication of the noted place of S. Austin , I would not believe the Gospel , &c. which ( you say ) cannot rationally be understood of Novices , Weaklings , and Doubters in the Faith. This being then the place at every turn objected by you , and having before reserved the discussion of it to this place , I shall here particularly and throughly consider the meaning of it . In order to which , three things must be enquired into . 1. What the Controversie was which St. Austin was there discussing of ? 2. What that Church was which St. Austin was moved by the Authority of ? 3. In what way and manner that Churches Authority did perswade him ? 1. Nothing seems more necessary for understanding the meaning of this place , than a true state of the Controversie , which S. Austin was disputing of ; and yet nothing less spoke to on either side , than this hath been . We are therefore to consider , that when Manes or Manichaeus began to appear in the world , to broach that strange and absurd Doctrine of his in the Christian world , which he had received from Terebinthus or Buddas , as he from Scythianus ( who , if we belieue Epiphanius , went to Jerusalem in the Apostles times , to enquire into the Doctrine of Christianity , and dispute with the Christians about his Opinions ) but easily foreseeing what little entertainment so strange a complexion of absurdities would find in the Christian world , as long as the writings of the Apostles and Evangelists were received every where with that esteem and veneration : Two waies he , or his more cunning Disciples , bethought themselves of , whereby to lessen the authority of those writings , and so make way for the Doctrine of Manichaeus . One was to disparage the Credulity of Christians , because the Catholick Church insisted so much on the necessity of Faith , whereas they pretended they would desire men to believe nothing but what they gave them sufficient reason for . But all this while , since the Christians thought they had evident reason for believing the Scriptures , and consequently none to believe the Doctrine which did oppose them ; therefore they found it necessary to go further , and to charge those Copies of Scripture with falsifications and corruptions , which were generally received among Christians . But these are fully delivered by S. Austin in his Book de utilitate credendi , as will appear to any one who looks into it ; but the latter is that which I aim at ; this he therefore taxeth them for , That with a great deal of impudence , or , to speak mildly , with much weakness , they charged the Scriptures to be corrupted ; and yet could not at so small a distance of time prove any corruption by any Copies which were extant . For , saith he , if they should say , They would not embrace their writings , because they were written by such who were not careful of writing Truth , their evasion would be more s●y , and their errour more pardonable . But thus , it seems , they did by the Acts of the Apostles , utterly denying them to contain matter of Truth in them ; and the reason was very obvious for it , because that Book gives so clear an account of the sending the Spirit upon the Apostles , which the Manichees pretended was to be only accomplished in the person of Manichaeus . And both before and after , S. Austin mentions it as their common speech , That before the time of Manichaeus , there had been corrupters of the sacred Books , who had mixed several things of their own with what was written by the Apostles . And this they laid upon the Judaizing Christians , because their great pique was against the Old Testament , and probably some further reason might be from the Nazarene Gospel ; wherein many things were inserted by such as did Judaize . The same thing St. Austin chargeth them with , when he gives an account of their Heresie . And this likewise appears by the management of the dispute between S. Austin and Faustus , who was much the subtillest man among them . Faustus acknowledged no more to be Gospel , than what contained the Doctrine delivered by our Saviour , and therefore denied the Genealogies to be any part of the Gospel ; and afterwards disputes against it , both in S. Matthew , and S. Luke . And after this S. Austin notes it as their usual custom , when they could not avoid a Testimony of Scripture , to deny it . Thus we see , what kind of persons these were , and what their pretences were which S. Austin disputes against , They embraced so much of Scripture , as pleased them , and no more . To this therefore S. Austin returns these very substantial Answers , That if such proceedings might be admitted , the Divine Authority of any Books could signifie nothing at all for the convincing of errours . That it was much more reasonable , either with the Pagans , to deny the whole Bible , or with the Jews , to deny the New Testament , than thus to acknowledge in general the Books Divine , and to quarrel with such particular passages as pinched them most , that if there were any suspicion of corruption , they ought to produce more true Copies , and more ancient Books than theirs , or else be judged by the Original Languages , with many other things to the same purpose . To apply this now to the present place in dispute , S. Austin in that Book against the Epistle of Manichaeus , begins with the Preface to it , which is made in imitation of the Apostles strain , and begins thus , Manichaeus Apostolus Jesu Christi , providentià Dei Patris , &c. To this S. Austin saith , he believes no such thing , as that Manichaeus was an Apostle of Jesus Christ , and hopes they will not be angry with him for it ; for he had learned of them not to believe without reason . And therefore desires them to prove it : It may be ( saith he ) one of you may read me the Gospel , and thence perswade me to believe it . But , what if you should meet with one , who , when you read the Gospel , should say to you , I do not believe it . But , I should not believe the Gospel , if the Authority of the Church did not move me : Whom therefore I obey in saying Believe the Gospel , should I not obey in saying , Believe not Manichaeus . The Question , we see , is concerning the proving the Apostleship of Manichaeus , which cannot in it self be proved , but from some Records , which must specifie such an Apostleship of his ; and to any one who should question the authenticalness of those Records , it can only be proved by the testimony and consent of the Catholick Church , without which S. Austin professeth , he should never have believed the Gospel , i. e. that these were the only true and undoubted Records , which are left us of the Doctrine and actions of Christ. And he had very good reason to say so ; for otherwise the authority of those Books should be questioned every time any one , such as Manichaeus , should pretend himself an Apostle : which Controversies there can be no other way of deciding , but by the Testimony of the Church , which hath received and embraced these Copies from the time of their first publishing . And that this was S. Austin's meaning , will appear by several parallel places in his disputes against the Manichees . For in the same chapter , speaking concerning the Acts of the Apostles , Which Book ( saith he ) I must believe , as well as the Gospel , because the same Catholick Authority commends both ; i. e. The same Testimony of the Vniversal Church , which delivers the Gospel as the authentick writings of the Evangelists , doth likewise deliver the Acts of the Apostles for an authentick writing of one of the same Evangelists : So that there can be no reason to believe the one , and not the other . So when he disputes against Faustus , who denied the truth of some things in S. Paul's Epistles ; he bids him shew a truer Copy than that the Catholick Church received , which Copy , if he should produce , he desires to know how he would prove it to be truer to one that should deny it . What would you do ? ( saith he ) Whither would you turn your self ? What Original of your Book could you shew ? What Antiquity , what Testimony of a succession of persons from the time of the writing of it ? But on the contrary , What huge advantage the Catholicks have , who , by a constant succession of Bishops in the Apostolical Sees , and by the consent of so many people , have the Authority of the Church confirmed to them for the clearing the validity of its Testimony concerning the Records of Scripture . And after laies down Rules for the trying of Copies , where there appears any difference between them , viz. by comparing them with the Copies of other Countries , from whence the Doctrine originally came ; and if those Copies vary too , the more Copies should be preferred before the fewer , the ancienter before the latter : If yet any uncertainty remains , the original Language must be consulted . This is , in case a Question ariseth among the acknowledged authentical Copies of the Catholick Church , ( in which case we see , he never sends men to the infallible Testimony of the Church , for certainty as to the Truth of the Copies ) but if the Question be , Whether any writing it self be authentical or no , then it stands to the greatest reason , that the Testimony of the Catholick Church should be relyed on , which , by reason of its large spread , and continual Succession from the very time of those writings , cannot but give the most indubitable Testimony concerning the authenticalness of the writings of the Apostles and Evangelists . And were it not for this Testimony , S. Austin might justly say , He should not believe the Gospel ; i. e. Suppose those writings which contain the Gospel in them ( for it is plain he speaks of them , and not the Doctrine abstractly considered ) should have wanted that consent of the Catholick Church , that it had not been delivered down by a constant succession of all Ages from the Apostles , and were not received among the Christian Churches , but started out from a few persons who differ from all Christian Churches , as this Apostleship of Manichaeus did ; he might justly question the Truth of them . And this I take to be truest and most natural account of these so much controverted words of S. Austin ; by which sense the other two Questions are easily answered : for it is plain , S. Austin means not the judgement of the present Church , but of the Catholick Church , in the most comprehensive sense , as taking in all ages and places , or in Vincentius his words , Succession , Vniversality , and Consent ; and it further appears , that the influence which this Authority hath , is sufficient to induce Assent to the thing attested in all persons who consider it , in what age , capacity , or condition soever . And therefore , if in this sense you extend it beyond Novices and Weaklings , I shall not oppose you in it ; but it cannot be denied , that it is intended chiefly for doubters in the Faith , because the design of it is to give men satisfaction as to the reason why they ought to believe . But neither you , nor any of those you call Catholick Authours , will ever be able to prove , that S. Austin by these words ever dreamt of any infallible Authority in the present Church , as might be abundantly proved from the chapter foregoing , where he gives an account of his being in the Catholick Church , from the Consent of People and Nations from that Authority which was begun by miracles , nourished by hope , increased by charity , confirmed by continuance , which certainly are not the expressions of one who resolved his Faith into the infallible Testimony of the present Church . And the whole scope and design of his Book de utilitate credendi , doth evidently refute any such apprehension , as might be easily manifested , were it not too large a subject for this place , where we only examine the meaning of S. Austin in another Book . The substance of which , is , that That speech of his doth not contain a resolution of his Faith , as to the Divinity of Christs Doctrine ; but the resolution of it , as to the Truth and authenticalness of the writings of the Apostles and Evangelists , which we acknowledge to be into the Testimony of the Catholick Church , in the most large and comprehensive sense . The next thing we come to consider , is , an Absurdity you charge on his Lordship , viz. That if the infallible Authority of the Church be not admitted in the Resolution , he must have recourse to the private Spirit , which ( you say ) though he would seem to exclude from the state of the Question , yet he falls into it under the specious title of Grace ; so that he only changeth the words , but admits the same thing , for which you cite p. 83 , 84. That therein his Lordship should averr , that where others used to say , They were infallibly resolved that Scripture was Gods Word , by the Testimony of the Spirit within them , that he hath the same assurance by Grace . Whether you be not herein guilty of abusing his Lordship by a plain perverting of his meaning , will be best seen by producing his words . A man ( saith he ) is probably led by the Authority of the present Church , as by the first informing , inducing , perswading means , to believe the Scripture to be the Word of God : But , when he hath studied , considered , and compared this Word with it self , and with other writings , with the help of ordinary Grace , and a mind morally induced , and reasonably perswaded by the Voice of the Church , the Scripture then gives greater and higher reasons of Credibility to it self , than Tradition alone could give . And then he that believes , resolves his last and full assent , that Scripture is of Divine Authority , into internal arguments found in the letter it self , though found by the help and direction of Tradition without , and Grace within . Had you not a great mind to calumniate , who could pick out of these words , That the Bishop resolved his Faith into Grace ? Can any thing be more plain , than the contrary is from them , when in the most perspicuous terms he says , that the last Resolution of Faith is into internal arguments , and only supposeth Tradition and Grace as necessary helps for the finding them ? Might you not then as well have said , That his Lordship , notwithstanding his zeal against the Infallibility of Tradition , is fain to resolve his Faith into it at last , as well as say , that he doth it into Grace ; for he joyns these two together ? But , Is it not possible to assert the Vse and Necessity of Grace , in order to Faith , but the last Resolution of it must be into it ? Do not all your Divines , as well as ours , suppose and prove the Necessity of Grace , in order to believing ; and , Are they not equally guilty of having recourse to the private Spirit ? Do you really think your self , that there is any thing of Divine Grace in Faith or no ? If there be , free your Self then from the private Spirit , and you do his Lordship . For shame then forbear such pitiful calumnies ; which , if they have any truth in them , You are as much concerned as Your adversary in it . You would next perswade us , That the Relator never comes near the main difficulty , which ( say you ) is , if the Church be supposed fallible in the Tradition of Scripture , how it shall be certainly known , whether de facto , she now errs not in her delivery of it ? If this be your grand difficulty , it is sufficiently assoiled already , having largely answered this Question in terminis , in the preceding Chapter . You ask further , What they are to do who are unresolved which is the true Church ; as though it were necessary for men to know which is the true Church , before they can believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God ? but when we assert the tradition of the Church to be necessary for believing the Scriptures , we do not thereby understand the particular Tradition of any particular Church whose judgement they must rely on , but the Vniversal Tradition of all Christians though this must be first made known in some particular Society , by the means of some particular persons , though their authority doth not oblige us to believe , but only are the means whereby men come acquainted with that Vniversal Tradition . And therefore your following discourse concerning the knowing the true Church by its motives is superseded ; for we mean no other Church than the Community of Christians in this Controversie ; and , if you ask me , By what motives I come to be certain which is a Community of Christians , and which of Mahumetans , and how one should be known from another , I can soon resolve you : But we are so far from making it necessary to know which particular society of Christians in opposition to others , is the true Church for resolving this question , that we look on it as a great argument of the Credibility as well as Vniversality of this Tradition , that all these differing Societies consent in it . And not only they , but the greatest opposers of Christianity , Jews , or Philosophers , could never see any reason to call in question such a Tradition . His Lordship the better to represent the use of Tradition in the last resolution of Faith makes use of this illustration , That as the knowledge of Grammer and Logick is necessary in order to the making a Demonstration , yet the knowledge of the Conclusion is not resolved into Grammer or Logick , but into the immediate principles out of which it is deduced : So a mans first preparative to Faith is the Churches Tradition , but his full and last assent is resolved into the internal arguments of Scripture . This you quarrel with , and tell us , There is not the same Analogy between Logick and Church Tradition ; your meaning , I suppose is , because Logick doth Physically by inlarging the understanding fit men for demonstrations , but Church-Tradition cannot enable men to understand the Scripture . But cannot you easily discern that Analogy which his Lordship brought this illustration for , which is , that some things may be necessary preparatives for knowledge , which that knowledge is not resolved into . Is not this plain in Logick , and is it not as plain between Tradition and Scripture ? For though Tradition doth not open our eyes to see this light , yet it presents the object to us to be seen , and that in an unquestionable manner . But for all this , say you , a man must either receive it on the sole authority of Church-Tradition , or be as much in the dark as ever . Why so ? Is there any repugnancy in the thing , that Scripture should be received first upon the account of Tradition , and yet afterwards men resolve their Faith into the Scripture it self ? May not a man very probably believe that a Diamond is sent him from a Friend upon the testimony of the Messenger who brings it , and yet be firmly perswaded of it , by discerning the Sparklings of it ? But , say you further , The Scriptures themselves appear no more to be the Word of God , then the Stars to be of a certain determinate number , or the distinction of colours to a blind man. If this approach not to the highest blasphemy against the Scripture , I know not what doth . He that shall compare this saying of yours , with that in the precedent Chapter , That if Christ had not left the Church Infallible , he might be accounted an Impostor and Deceiver , may easily guess how much of Religion you believe in your heart , when on so small occasions you do so openly disparage both Christ and the Scriptures . It is well yet , your Churches Infallibility can stand on no better terms than these are , which will be sufficient to keep any who have any true sense of the truth and excellency of Christ and the Scriptures from hearkening to it . But are you in good earnest when you say , that Scriptures themselves appear no more to be the Word of God , than the distinction of colours to a blind man , which is as much as nothing at all ? Is there nothing at all in the excellency of the Doctrine and Precepts contained in the Scriptures , nothing in those clear discoveries of God and our selves , nothing in all those transactions between God and men , nothing in that Covenant of Redemption between God and man through Christ , nothing in the clear accomplishment and fulfilling of Prophesies , nothing in that admirable strain and style which is in the writings , nothing in that harmonious consent which is discovered in writers of several ages , interests , places , and conditions , nothing in that admirable efficacy which the Doctrine of it hath upon the souls of men to perswade them to renounce sin , the world , and themselves for the sake of it ; is there nothing more ( I say ) in all these , which makes the Scripture appear to be the Word of God , than the distinction of colours to a blind man ? Could you assoon think to account the starrs as discern any thing of Divinity from these things in the Scriptures ? If your eyes were as blind as your understanding , could you assoon distinguish white from black , as the Scripture from the Alcoran , if they were both presented to you to read , and judge of them according to the evidence you found in them ? Is it possible a man that owns himself a Christian , should utter such opprobrious language of the Scripture ? You had been before speaking what honour you give to the Scripture , notwithstanding you pretend your Church Infallible , and I had mentioned some of those passages which occurr in your writers in disparagement of them : but I must needs say they all fall short of this ; the Nose of Wax , the Inky Divinity , the Lesbian rule , are Courtlike expressions to this of yours ; for this puts no difference in the world between the Scripture and the Alcoran , if your Church should propound the one as well as the other . For you could not possibly say worse of the Alcoran , then that of it self it appeared no more to be the Word of God , than distinction of colours to a blind man. I might here send you to be chastised for this insolent Atheistical expression to the Primitive Fathers , who speak so much in admiration of the excellency of Scriptures , who did vindicate them from all assaults of the Heathen Philosophers . I might send you to those of your own party , who if they have any love or tenderness for Christian Religion will not suffer such passages to pass without the most severe rebukes : I might sufficiently prove the contrary from the arguments used against Atheists by Bellarmine and others ; but I shall content my self with that noble and Christian confession of your Gregory de Valentiâ , from whom you might learn more piety and modesty towards the Sacred Scriptures . There being many things in the Doctrine of Christianity it self , which of themselves may conciliate belief and authority , yet that seems the greatest to me ( as hath been observed by Clement of Alexandria , Lactantius and others ) that I know not with what admirable force , but most divine , it affects the hearts of men , and stirs them up to vertue . It is written with great simplicity , and without almost any artifice or ornament of speech ; which is an argument that its authority is not humane but Divine , for no humane writing hath any power on the minds of men without a great deal of art and eloquence . How many things are there in this ingenuous and pious confession of this learned Jesuite , which might , if you have any shame left , make you sensible of the Blasphemy of your former expression . For , 1. He saith , there are many things in the doctrine of Christianity which for themselves may conciliate our belief , and manifest their authority : If for themselves , then certainly the Scriptures of themselves have a great deal more evidence , that they are the Word of God , than the distinction of colours to a blind man. 2. That the peculiar strain and genius of Scripture argues something Divine in it , because , notwithstanding its simplicity it hath so great power and efficacy on the minds of men ; far beyond any humane art or Rhetorick . 3. That this may be discerned in the very Books of Scripture without the supposition of the authority of any Church ; for he mentions the Doctrine meerly as written , and what may be found by the reading of it . Go then , and learn some piety and ingenuity ( where it is so seldome to be learned ) from a Jesuite , and think not that we shall ever have the meaner thoughts of the Scripture for such bold expressions ; but , we can easily see , that the Infallibility of the Church , and the Honour of Scripture cannot possibly stand together . Your subsequent discourse consists of some rare pieces of subtilty , which may be resolved into these consequences ; If your Church of Rome hath erred as to the number of Canonical Books , then the Catholick Church , ever since Christs time , hath erred ; if the Church may erre , then we cannot be certain but she hath erred ; if we can have no infallible certainty , then we can have none at all ; These consequences your discourse to n. 5. may be resolved into ; and make good ever a one of them , I will say you have proved something ; which is more than you have done yet . N. 5. You object against his Lordship , That he requires so many things in order to the resolution of Faith , that he makes none capable of it , but men of extraordinary parts and learning . To which I answer , that his Lordship is not undertaking to give an account of the Faith of rude or illiterate persons , but such a one as may satisfie men of parts and learning , i. e. he endeavoured to lay down the true rational account of it , and not to enquire how far God obligeth every man that comes to Heaven , to a critical Resolution of his Faith. And therefore for the generality of such persons who heartily believe the Truth of Scriptures , but are not able to give a clear and satisfactory account of it to others ; I answer , as S. Austin did in the same case , Caeteram quippe turbam non intelligendi vivacitas , sed credendi simplicitas tutissimam facit : That God requires not from the common sort of believers , the subtilty of Speculation , but the simplicity of Faith ; which may be very firm even in them from the reading of Scriptures , and hearing the Doctrine of it plainly delivered to them , though they are not able to give such accounts of their Faith , which may be satisfactory to any but themselves . So we say , That the way is so plain , that mean capacities may not erre therein . But , I wonder at you , of all men , that you should charge our way with intricacy , who lead men into such perplexities and difficulties , before they can be satisfied that they ought to believe ; for to this end you make the infallible Testimony of the Church necessary ; and , how many insuperable difficulties are there before one can be assured of that ? first , he must know your Church to be the True Church , and this must be proved by a continual succession of Pastors in your Church , and by a conformity of your Doctrine with the Ancients ; and , Do you think these two are not very easie introductions to Faith , like the taking Rome in ones way , to go from York to London ; but , though a man should pull down a House to find a Key to open it , and after he had searched in all the rubbish of antiquity , find enough to perswade him yours may be a True Church , yet he is as far from believing as ever , unless he finds a way through another Trap-door for his Faith , which is , that yours , though a particular Church , is yet the only Catholick Church , i. e. that the first room he comes in , is infallibly the whole house , and therefore he never needs look further . But , supposing this , yet if he doth not believe this Church to be infallible in all it says , he had as good never come into it ; and therefore he must believe strenuously , That whatever it says , is infallibly True , which being so hard a task ( as for a man that sees a house half down before his eyes , to believe it can never fall ) it had need have some good buttresses to support it , and at last finds nothing but some feeble Motives of Credibility , which signifie nothing as to the Church , but might have been strong enough , if set in the right place , viz. not to support the Church , but to prove the truth of Christian Doctrine . These , and many other intrigues , which I have formerly discovered , do unavoidably attend the resolution of your Faith , among all persons who profess to believe on the account of your Churches Infallibility . What follows next concerning Grace , is already answered : What certainty we have that Scripture is of Divine Revelation , and consequently what obligation lyes upon men to believe it , are things largely discoursed on in the beginning of this Chapter ; and I shall suppose sufficiently cleared , till you shew me reason to the contrary : By which it will appear ( contrary to what follows n. 6. ) that we have the highest reasons or motives of Credibility , to assent to the Truth , and Divine Authority of the Scriptures . But you proceed to an attempt of something new ; which is , in a long harangue to disprove his Lordships Opinion of resolving Faith into that Divine Light which appears in Scripture . This you insist on from n. 6. to n. 8. the substance of all which discourse , I suppose , may be reduced to these three things . 1. That though the Scripture be called a Light , yet that is to be understood only of those who own its authority . 2. That the Scripture cannot shew it self to be an Infallible Light. 3. That if there were such Light in Scriture , all others would see it as well as he . Before I come to a particular handling of each of these , it will be necessary to consider , What it is which his Lordship means by this Divine Light in Scripture ; for , there is nothing causeth more confusion in the discourses and apprehensions of men , than the applying Metaphors taken from the sense to the acts of the Vnderstanding : For , by this means , we are apt to judge of our intellectual acts in a way wholly suitable to those of sense . We are not therefore to conceive , there can be any thing in Divine Truths , which so immediately doth discover it self to the mind , as light doth to the eye . But that only which bears proportion to the light in the mind , is reason ; for mens minds being discursive , and not intuitive , they do not behold the truth of things by immediate intuition , but by such reason and arguments as do induce and perswade to assent . We are not therefore to imagine any such Light in Scripture , that doth as immediately work upon the understanding , as the Light of the Sun doth on the organs of sight ; and therefore that common speech , that Light doth discover it self as well as other things , is in this sense improperly applied to the Understanding ; for , whatever is discovered to the mind in a discursive manner , as all Objects of Faith are , must have some antecedent evidence to it self , which must be the ground of the act of assent . That therefore which is called the Divine Light of Scripture , is , I suppose that rational evidence which is contained in the Books of Scripture , whereby any reasonable man may be perswaded that these Books are of Divine Authority . Now that herein I say nothing beyond or besides his Lordships meaning and intention , will appear by his own discourse on this subject . For 1. His Lordship designedly disproves that Opinion that Scripture should be fully and sufficiently known as by Divine and Infallible Testimony , lumine proprio , by the resplendency of that Light which it hath in it self only , and by the witness that it can so give to it self . Because , as there is no place in Scripture that tells us such Books containing such and such particulars , are the Canon and Infallible Will of God ; so , if there were any such place , that could be no sufficient proof ; for , a man may justly ask another Book to bear witness to that , and so in infinitum . Again , this inbred Light of Scripture is a thing coincident with Scripture it self , and so the Principles and the Conclusion in this kind of proof should be entirely the same , which cannot be . Besides , if this inward Light were so clear , how could there have been any variety among the ancient Believers , touching the authority of S. James , and S. Judes Epistles , and the Apocalypse , &c. For certainly the Light which is in the Scripture , was the same then which now it is . On these reasons then , we see , his Lordship not only disclaims , but disproves such knowing the Scripture meerly by the Light within . Two things then I hence inferr , which will be very necessary to clear his Lordships meaning . 1. That he no where attributes such an inward Light to Scripture , that by it self it can discover that these Books are from God. 2. That where his Lordship mentions this Light most , he supposeth Tradition antecedent to it , as appears by his whole discourse . From whence I gather this to have been the plainest account of his way of resolving Faith , as I have already intimated , viz. that the resolution of Faith may be considered two waies ; into the Books , and into the Doctrine contained in them . The resolution into the Books , must , of necessity , suppose Tradition , and rely upon it ; and this kind of resolution of Faith , cannot be into any self-evidence , or internal Light : but , supposing the Books owned on the account of Tradition , if the Question be concerning the Divinity of the Doctrine , then he asserts , that the resolution of this is into the Divine Light of Scripture , i. e. into that rational evidence which we find of the Divinity of it , in these Books which are owned on the account of Tradition . And that this is his Lordships meaning , appears 2. By his own Testimony , who was best able to explain himself ; for , when he goes about to confirm his Opinion by the Testimonies of the Fathers , he tells us , This was the way which the ancient Church ever used , namely , Tradition , or Ecclesiastical Authority first , and then all other arguments , but especially internal , from the Scripture it self . And , for this first , instanceth in S. Augustine , who ( saith he ) gives four proofs all internal to the Scripture it self , which are , First , The Miracles . Secondly , That there is nothing carnal in the Doctrine . Thirdly , Fulfilling of Prophecies . Fourthly , The efficacy of it for conversion of the world . All these we see he instanceth in , as internal arguments , and therefore make up that which he calls Divine Light. So that all that he means by this Light of Scripture , is only that rational evidence of the Divinity of the Doctrine , which may be discovered in it , or deduced from it . Having thus explained his Lordships meaning , it will be no matter of difficulty to return an Answer to the particulars by you alledged . 1. You say , That when Scripture is said to be a Light by the Royal Prophet , it is to be understood in this sense , Because , after we have once received it from the infallible Authority of the Church , it teacheth what we are to do and believe . But , 1. Doth not the Scripture sufficiently teach what we are to do and believe , supposing it not received on the infallible Authority of the Church ? doth that add any thing to the Light of Scripture ? Or , do you suppose the necessity of infallibly believing it on the Churches Authority , before one can discern what it teacheth us to do and believe ? 2. What ground have you , in the least , to imagine , that David ever believed the Scripture on the infallible authority of the Church : That he doth suppose it to be Gods Word , when he saith , It is a Light to his feet , I deny not ; but that he should suppose it to be so , because the Church did infallibly tell him it was so , is a most ungrounded Assertion . Had he not sufficient evidence that the Law was from God , by those many unquestionable and stupendous Miracles , which attended the delivery of it ? Was not the whole constitution and government of the Jewish Nation , an impregnable argument that those things were true , which were recorded in their Books ? Did ever the Jewish Sanhedrin , High Priest , or others , arrogate to themselves any infallible Testimony , in delivering the Books of Moses to the people ? The most you can suppose of a ground of certainty among them , was from that Sacred Record of the Book of the Law , which was kept in the Ark : And how could they know that was Authentick , but from the same Tradition , which conveyed the Miracles of Moses to them ? So that nothing like any infallible Authority of a Church was looked on by them as necessary to believe the Law to have been from God. 3. Supposing it from tradition unquestionable , that the Law was from God , those incomparable directions which were in it might be a great confirmation to David's Faith , that it was his Word . Which is that he intends , in these words , Thy Word is a light to my feet , &c. to shew that excellency and perspicuity which was in his Word , that it gave him the best directions for ordering his conversation . And this is all which his Lordship means , that to those , who , by the advantage of Tradition , have already venerable thoughts of Scripture ; the serious conversing with it , doth highly advance them , and establish their belief of it , as that Faith is thereby clinched which was driven in by education . And therefore , when he saith , That Light discovers its self as well as other things , he presently adds , not till there hath been a preparing instruction what Light it is . Thus ( he saith ) the Tradition of the Church is the first moral motive to belief : But the belief it self , that Scripture is the Word of God , rests upon Scripture , when a man finds it to answer and exceed that which the Church gave in Testimony . For this his Lordship cites Origen , who , though much nearer the prime Tradition than we are , yet being to prove that the Scriptures were inspired from God , he saith , De hoc assignabimus ex ipsis Scripturis Divinis , quae nos competentèr moverint , &c. We will mention those things out of the sacred Scriptures , which have perswaded us , &c. To this you answer , Though Origen prove by the Scriptures themselves , that they were inspired from God ; yet doth he never avow , that this could be proved out of them , unless they were received by the infallible Authority of the Church . Which Answer is very unreasonable . For 1. It might be justly expected that his Lordship had produced an express Testimony to his purpose out of Origen , you should have brought some other as clear for his believing Scripture on the Churches Infallibility , which you are so far from , that you would put us to prove a Negative : But , if you will deal fairly , and as you ought to do , produce your Testimonies out of him , and the rest of the Fathers concerning your Churches Infallibility . Till then , excuse us if we take their express words , and leave you to gather Infallibility out of their latent meanings . 2. What doth your Infallibility conduce to the believing Scriptures for themselves ? For , you say , The Scriptures cannot be proved by themselves to be Gods Word , unless they were received by the infallible Authority of the Church ; it seems then , if they be so received , they may be proved by themselves to be Gods Word . Are those proofs by themselves sufficient for Faith or no ? If not , they are very slender proofs : if they be , What need your Churches Infallibility ? Unless you will suppose , no man can discern those proofs without your Churches Testimony ; and then they are not proofs by themselves , but from your Churches Infallibility ; which may serve for one accession more to the heap of your Contradictions . His Lordship asserting the last resolution of Faith to be into simply Divine Authority , cites that speech of Henr. à Gandavo , That in the Primitive Church , when the Apostles themselves spake , they did believe principally for the sake of God , and not the Apostles ; from whence he inferrs , If , where the Apostles themselves spake , the last resolution of Faith was into God , and not into themselves on their own account ; much more shall it now be into God , and not the present Church , and into the writings of the Apostles , than into the words of their successors made up into Tradition . All that you answer , is , That this argument must be solved by the Bishop , as well as you , because he hath granted the authority of the Apostles was Divine as well as you . Was there ever a more senseless Answer ! Doth Gandavo deny the Apostles authority to have been Divine ? Nay , Doth he not imply it , when he saith , Men did not believe for the Apostles sakes , but for Gods , who spake by them . As S. Paul said , You received our word , not as the word of men , but as it is indeed the Word of God. How the Bishop should be concerned to answer this , is beyond my skill to imagine . If Origen speaks to such as believed the Scriptures to be the Word of God ; so doth the Bishop too , viz. on the account of Tradition and Education . If Origen endeavoured by those proofs to confirm and settle their Faith , that is all the Bishop aims at , that a Faith taken up on the Churches Tradition , may be settled and confirmed by the internal arguments of Scripture . But , how you should from this discourse assert , That the Authority of the Church must be infallible in delivering the Scripture , is again beyond my reach , neither can I possibly think what should bear the face of Premises to such a Conclusion . Unless it be , if Origen assert , That the Scriptures may be believed for themselves , if Gandavo saith , That the resolution of Faith must be into God himself , then the Churches Authority must be infallible ; but it appears already , that the premises are true , and what then remains but therefore , &c. which may indeed be listed among your rare argumentations for Infallibility . 2. That Scripture cannot manifest it self to be an infallible Light ; the proof of which is the design of your following discourse . Wherein you first quarrel with the Bishop for his arguing from the Scriptures being a Light ; for thence ( you say ) it will only follow , that the Scripture manifests it self to be a Light , which you grant , but that it should manifest it self to be an infallible Light you deny ; for ( say you ) unless he could shew that there are no other Lights , save the Word of God , and such as are infallible , he can never make good his consequence . For in Seneca , Plutarch , Aristotle , you read many Lights , and those manifest themselves to be Lights ; but they do not therefore manifest themselves to be infallible Lights . The substance of your argument lyes in this , The Scripture discovers the Being of God ; so doth the Talmud and Alcoran , as well as it ; the Scripture delivers abundance of moral instructions , but these may be found in multitudes of other Books , both of Christians , and Jews , and Heathens ; and as we do not thence inferr , that these Books are infallible , so neither can we that the Scriptures are . This is the utmost of sense or reason , which I can extract out of your discourse ; which reduced into Form , will come to this . If the Scriptures contain nothing in them , but what may be found in other Books that are not infallible , then the Scriptures cannot shew themselves to be infallible ; but the antecedent is true , and therefore the consequent . I could wish you would have taken a little more pains in proving that which must be your assumption , viz. That Scripture contains nothing in it but what may be seen in Seneca , Plutarch , Aristotle , the Talmud , Alcoran , and other Books of Jews and Heathens . These are rare things to assert among Christians , without offering at any more proof of them than you do , which lyes in this Syllogism . If Scripture contain some things which may be seen in these Books , then it contains nothing but what may be seen in these Books ; but the Scripture contains some things which may be seen in other Books , viz. the existence of God , and moral instructions ; therefore it contains nothing but what is in them . And , Do you really think that you have now proved , that there is nothing in Scripture that can shew it self to be infallible , because some things are common to other writings . Would you not take it very ill that any should say that you had no more brains than a Horse , or a creature of a like nature , because they have sense and motion , as well as you ? Yet this is the very same argument whereby you would prove that the Scriptures cannot shew themselves to be Divine , because the Talmud , Alcoran , and Philosophers , have some things in them which the Scripture hath . But , Can you prove that the Scripture hath nothing else in it , but what may be found in any , or all of these Books ? Will you undertake to shew any where such representations of the Being and Attributes of God , so suitable to the conceptions which naturally flow from the Idea of a Supreme and Infinite Being , and yet those Attributes discovered in such contrivances for mans Good , which the wit of man could never have reached to ; above all , in the reconciliation of the world to himself by the death of his Son ? Will you find out so exact a Rule of Piety , consisting of such excellent Precepts , such incouraging Promises as are in Scripture , in any other writings whatsoever ? Can you discover any where such an unexpressible energy and force in a writing of so great simplicity and plainness as the Scripture is ? Is there any thing unbecoming that Authority , which it awes the consciences of men with ? Is there any thing mean , trivial , fabulous , and impertinent in it ? Are not all things written with that infinite decorum and suitableness , as do highly express the Majesty of him from whom it comes , but in the most sweet , affable , and condescending manner ? Are there any such arguments in the writings of Seneca , Plutarch , Aristotle , for the Being of God , and Immortality of souls , as there are in Scripture ? Are there any moral instructions built on such good grounds , carried on to so high a degree , written with that life and vigour in any of the Heathen Philosophers , as are in the Scriptures ? How infinitely do the highest of them fall short of the Scripture in those very things , which they seem most to have in common with it ? As , were it here a fit place , might be at large discovered . But , besides , and beyond all these , Are there not other things which evidence the Divine Revelation of the Doctrine contained in Scripture , which none of the writings you mention , can in the least pretend to , viz. the accurate accomplishment of Prophecies , and the abundance of Miracles wrought for the confirmation of the Divine Testimony of those who delivered this Doctrine to the world . And these very things now to us are internal to the Scripture , the motives of Faith being delivered to us in the same Books that the Doctrine of Faith is : In which sense the Scriptures may well be said to be proved Divine by themselves , and that they appear infallible by the Light which is in them , notwithstanding you most pitifully pretend to the contrary . And , if your Church will again pardon you for such opprobrious language of Scripture , as not only to compare the writings of Seneca , Plutarch , and Aristotle with it , which yet are commendable in their kind , for moral Virtue , and natural Knowledge ; but those wretched and notorious impostures of the Alcoran , and the fabulous relations of the Talmud ; if , I say , your Church will pardon such expressions as these , because they tend to inhance her Infallibility , well fare that Pope , who said Heu quam minimo regitur mundus ! As for your following instance of a Candle lighted in a room , which shews that it is a light , but not who lighted it ; so the sentences in Scripture are lights , and shew themselves to be such , but they cannot shew themselves to be such infallible lights which are produced by none but God himself : I answer ; That I commend your discretion in making choice of a Candle rather than of the light of the Sun to set forth the Scripture by . For a Candle yields but a dim uncertain light , may be put into a dark lanthorn , and snuffed at pleasure ; so would your Church fain pretend of the Scripture , that its light is very weak and uncertain , that your Church must open the sides of the Lanthorn that it may give light , and make use of some Apostolical Snuffers of the Popes keeping , to make it shine the clearer , though they often endanger the almost extinguishing of it ; at least as to the generation of those who should enjoy the benefit of it . But because that poor light of a Candle cannot shew who lighted it , Will not the light of the Sun manifest it self to be no greater than that of a Candle ? Cannot any one inferr from the vast extent of that light , from the vanishing of it upon the Suns setting , and its dispersing it self at his rising , that this light can proceed only from that great luminous body which is in the Heavens ? And may we not proportionably inferr , from the clearness , greatness , majesty , coherency of those truths revealed in Scripture , that they must certainly come from none but God ; especially being joyned with those impregnable evidences which himself by the persons who delivered them that they were imployed by himself for that end ? But because this is a matter of great consequence give me leave to propound these questions to you , and after you have considered them seriously , return me a rational answer to them . 1. Doth it imply any repugnancy at all in the nature of the thing , or to the nature of God , that he should reveal his mind to the world . 2. If it doth not , as I suppose you will grant that , Whether is it possible that God should make it evident to the world that such a Revelation is from himself ? 3. If this be not impossible , Is it not necessary that it should be so , supposing that God should require the belief of a Doctrine so revealed on pain of eternal damnation for not believing it ? 4. Whether God may not give as great evidence of a Revelation that he makes of his mind to the world , as he doth of his Being , from the Wisdom , Goodness , and Power , which may be seen in the works of Creation ? 5. Whether any other way be conceivable that it should be evident that a Doctrine comes from God , but that it contains things highly suitable to the Divine nature , things above the finding out of humane reason , things only tending to advance Holiness and Goodness in the world , and this doctrine to be delivered by persons who wrought unparalleld miracles ? 6. Whether all these be not in the most evident manner imaginable contained in the Doctrine of Christianity , and in the Books of Scripture ? which I leave any man that hath common sense to judge of ? 7. Whether then it be not the highest disparagement of this Divine doctrine to make it stand in need of an Infallible testimony of any company who shall take the boldness to call themselves the Catholick Church , in order to the believing of it ; and whether there can be any greater dishonour done it , then to say it hath no more light to discover it self Divine , than the Writings of Philosophers , not to add of Jews and Mahumetans ? These things I leave you and the reader to consider of , and proceed . What follows concerning the Fathers and others proving the Scriptures to be the Word of God by themselves , after they have believed them infallibly on other grounds , is gratis dictum , unless you can prove from the Fathers , that they did believe the Scriptures infallibly on other grounds . Which when you shall think fit to attempt I make no question to answer , but in the mean time to a crude assertion it is enough to oppose a bare denyal . Your following absurdities concerning the private Spirit , infallible assurance , Apostolical tradition , have been frequently examin'd already . Only what you say , that you read , esteem , nay very highly reverence , the Scripture ; is but Protestatio contra factum , as may appear by your former expressions , and therefore can have no force at all with wise men , who judge by things and not by bare words . 3. You say , That if there were such sufficient light in Scripture to shew it self , you should see it as well as we ; seeing you read it as diligently , and esteem it as highly as we do . What! You esteem the Scripture as highly as we , who say , that the Scripture appears no more of it self to be Gods Word , than distinction of colours to a blind man ! You , who but in the page before had said , there was no more light in Scripture to discover it self , than in Seneca , Plutarch , Aristotle , nay as to some things than the Talmud and Alcoran ! You , who say that , notwithstanding the Scriptures , Christ would have been esteemed an Ignoramus and Impostor , if your Church be not Infallible ; Are you the man , who esteem as highly of the Scriptures as we do ? May we not therefore justly return you your own language ; and say , that if you do not see this light in Scripture , it is because your eyes are perverse , your understanding unsanctified , which instead of discovering such Divine light in Scripture as to make you love and adore it , can have the confidence to utter such expressions which tend so highly to the disparagement of it . But did not his Lordship give before a sufficient answer to this objection , by saying , 1. That the light is sufficient in it self , but it doth not follow that it must be evident to every one that looks into it ; for the blindness or perversness of mens minds may keep them from the discovery of it . 2. He saith , This light is not so full a light as that of the first Principles , as , that the whole is greater than the part , that the same thing cannot be , and not be , at the same time . And yet such is your sincerity , you would seem at first to perswade the Reader of the contrary in your next Paragraph ; but at last you grant that he denies it to be evidently known as one of the Principles of the first sort . ( For you with your wonted subtilty distinguish Principles known of themselves , into such as are either evidently , and such as are probably known of themselves , i. e. Principles known of themselves , are either such as are known of themselves , or such as are not ; for what is but probably known , is not certainly known of it self , but by that probable argument which causeth assent to it ) . But when you deny that the Scripture is so much as one of the second sort of principles , and say expresly , That of it self it appears not so much as probably to be more the Word of God , than some other Book that is not truly such ; were you not so used to Contradictions , I would desire you to reconcile this expression , with what you said a little before of your high Esteem and Reverence of the Scriptures . 3. The Bishop saith , That when he speaks of this light in Scripture , he only means it of such a light as is of force to breed Faith , that it is the Word of God ; not to make a perfect knowledge . Now Faith , of whatsoever it is , this or other principle , is an evidence , as well as knowledge ; and the belief is firmer than any knowledge can be , because it rests upon Divine authority , which cannot deceive ; whereas knowledge ( or at least he that thinks he knows ) is not ever certain in deductions from Principles ; but the Evidence is not so clear . Now God doth not require a full demonstrative knowledge in us that the Scripture is his Word , and therefore in his Providence hath kindled in it no light for that , but he requires our Faith of it , and such a certain demonstration as may fit that . Now what answer do you return to all this ? Why , forsooth , We must have certainty , nay an Infallible certainty , nay such an Infallible certainty as is built on the Infallible Authority of the Church , yet such an Infallible Authority as can be proved only by motives of credibility ; which is a new kind of Climax in Rhetorick , viz. a ladder standing with both ends upon ground at the same time . All the answer I shall therefore now give it , is , that your Faith then is certain , Infallibly certain , and yet built on but probable motives , and therefore on your own principles must be also uncertain , very uncertain , nay undoubtedly and Infallibly uncertain . What again follows concerning Canonical Books and the private Spirit , I must send them , as Constables do vagrants , to the place from whence they came , and there they shall meet with a sufficient Answer . The remainder of this Chapter consists of a tedious vindication of Bellarmine and Brierely , which being of little consequence to the main business , I shall return the shorter answer . I shall not quarrel much with you about the interpretation of those words of Bellarmine in the sense you give them , viz. if they be understood of absolute necessity , not of all Christians , and only in rare cases , that it is not necessary to believe that there is Scripture , on supposition that the Doctrine of Scripture could be sufficiently conveyed to the minds of any without it , as in the case of the Barbarous Nations mentioned by Irenaeus . But for you who make the tradition of the present Church Infallible , and at the least the Infallible conveyer of the formal object of Faith ; I do not see how you can avoid making it as absolutely necessary to be believed as any other object of Faith : unless your Church hath some other way of conveying objects of Faith , than by propounding the Scripture infallibly to us . If therefore men are bound to believe things absolutely necessary to salvation , because contained in that Book , which the Church delivers to be the Infallible Word of God ; I cannot possibly see , but the belief of the Scripture on the Churches Infallible Testimony must be as necessary necessitate medii as any thing contained in it . As for the Citation of Hooker by Brierely , Whether it be falsified or no will best be seen by producing the scope and design of that worthy Authour in the Testimonies , cited out of him . Upon an impartial view of which in the several places referred to , I cannot but say , that if Brierely's design was to shew that Hooker made the authority of the Church that into which Faith is lastly resolved , he doth evidently contradict Mr. Hookers design , and is therefore guilty of unfaithful representing his meaning . For where he doth most fully and largely express himself he useth these words , which for clearing his meaning must be fully produced . Scripture teacheth all supernaturally revealed truth , without the knowledge whereof salvation cannot be attained . The main principle whereon the belief of all things therein contained dependeth , is , that the Scriptures are the Oracles of God himself . This in it self we cannot say is evident . For then all men that hear it would acknowledge it in heart , as they do when they hear that every whole is more than any part of that whole , because this in it self is evident . The other we know that all do not acknowledge it when they hear it . There must be therefore some former knowledge presupposed , which doth herein assure the hearts of all believers . Scripture teacheth us that saving truth which God hath discovered to the world by Revelation , and it presumeth us taught otherwise , that it self is Divine and Sacred . The question then being by what means we are taught this ; some answer , That to learn it we have no other way then only Tradition : As namely that so we believe , because both we from our predecessours , and they from theirs have so received . But is this enough ? That which all mens experience teacheth them , may not in any wise be denyed . And by experience we all know , that the first Motive leading men so to esteem of the Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church . For when we know the whole Church of God , hath that opinion of the Scripture , we judge it even at the first an impudent thing for any man bred and brought up in the Church to be of a contrary mind without cause . Afterwards the more we bestow our labour in reading or hearing the mysteries thereof , the more we find that the thing it self doth answer our receiv'd opinion concerning it . So that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before , doth now much more prevail , when the very thing hath ministred farther reason . Can any thing be more plain ( if mens meaning may be gathered from their words , especially when purposely they treat of a subject ) than that Hooker makes the Authority of the Church the primary inducement to Faith , and that rational evidence which discovers it self in the Doctrine revealed to be that which it is finally resolved into ? For , as his Lordship saith on this very place of Hooker , The resolution of Faith ever settles upon the farthest reason it can , not upon the first inducement . By this place then where this worthy Authour most clearly and fully delivers his judgement , we ought in reason to interpret all other occasional and incidental passages on the same subject . So in that other place . For whatsoever we believe concerning salvation by Christ although the Scripture be therein the ground of our belief , yet the authority of man is , if we mark it , the key which openeth the door of entrance into the knowledge of the Scriptures . I will not dispute , whether here he speaks concerning the knowledge of Scripture to be Scripture , or concerning the natural sense and meaning of Scripture : suppose I should grant you the latter , it would make little for your purpose ; for when he adds , The Scripture doth not teach us the things that are of God , unless we did credit men who have taught us that the words of Scripture do signifie those things . You need not here bid us stay a while : For his sense is plain and obvious , viz. that men cannot come to the natural sense and importance of the words used in Scripture , unless they rely on the authority of men for the signification of those words . He speaks not here then at all concerning Church-Tradition properly taken , but meerly of the authority of man , which he contends must in many cases be relyed on , particularly in that of the sense and meaning of the words which occurr in Scripture . Therefore with his Lordships leave and yours too , I do not think that in this place Hooker by the authority of man doth understand Church-Tradition , but if I may so call it Humane-Tradition , viz. that which acquainteth us with the force and signification of words in use . When therefore you prove that it is Tradition only , which is all the ground he puts of believing Scripture to be the Word of God , from those words of his , That utterly to infringe the force and strength of mans testimony , were to shake the very Fortress of Gods truth . Now ( say you ) How can that Fortress ( the Scripture ) be shaken , were not that authority esteemed by him the ground of that Fortress . That may very easily be shewn , viz. by calling in question the truth of humane testimony in general ; for he plainly speaks of such a kind of humane testimony as that is , whereby we know there is such a City as Rome , that such and such were Popes of Rome , wherein the ground of our perswasion can be nothing else but humane testimony ; now take away the credit and validity of this testimony , the very Fortress of truth must needs be shaken ; for we could never be certain that there were such persons , as Moses , the Prophets , Christ and his Apostles in the world , we could never be certain of the meaning of any thing written by them . But how farr is this from the final resolution of Faith into Church-Tradition ? But the place you lay the greatest force on , is that which you first cite out of him , Finally we all believe that the Scriptures of God are sacred , and that they have proceeded from God ; our selves we assure , that we do right well in so believing . We have for this a demonstration sound and Infallible . But it is not the Word of God which doth or can possibly assure us , that we do well to think it his Word . From hence you inferr , That either he must settle no Infallible ground at all , or must say that the Tradition of the Church is that ground . No Infallible ground in your sense , I grant it , but well enough in his own ; for all the difficulty lies in understanding what he means by Infallible ; which he takes not in your sense for a supernatural , but only for a rational Infallibility ; not such a one as excludes possibility of deception , but all reasonable doubting . In which sense he saith of such things as are capable only of moral certainty , That the Testimony of man will stand as a ground of Infallible assurance ; and presently instanceth in these , That there is such a City of Rome , that Pius 5. was Pope there , &c. So afterwards , he saith , That the mind of man desireth evermore to know the truth according to the most Infallible certainty which the nature of things can yield : by which it is plain , that the utmost certainty which things are capable of is with him Infallible certainty ; and so a sound and Infallible ground of Faith is a certain ground , which we all assert may be had without your Churches Infallible Testimony . Whether therefore Brierely and you are not guilty , if not of falsifying Hookers words , yet of perverting his meaning , let the Impartial Reader judge . CHAP. VIII . The Churches Infallibility not proved from Scripture . Some general considerations from the design of proving the Churches Infallibility from Scripture . No Infallibility in the High-Priest and his Clergy under the Law ; if there had been , no necessity there should be under the Gospel . Of St. Basils Testimony concerning Traditions . Scripture less lyable to corruption than Traditions . The great uncertainty of judging Traditions when Apostolical , when not . The Churches perpetuity being promised in Scripture proves not its Infallibility . His Lordship doth not falsifie C's words , but T. C. doth his meaning . Producing the Jesuits words no traducing their Order . C's . miserable Apology for them . The particular texts produced for the Churches Infallibility , examined . No such Infallibility necessary in the Apostles Successours as in Themselves . The similitude of Scripture and Tradition to an Ambassadour and his Credentials , rightly stated . THE main design of this Chapter being to prove the Infallibility of the Church from the Testimonies of Scripture ; before I come to a particular discussion of the matters contained in it , I shall make some general Observations on the scope and design of it , which may give more light to the particulars to be handled in it . 1. That the Infallibility you challenge to the Church , is such as must suppose a promise extant of it in Scripture : Which is evident from the words of A. C. ( which you own ) to his Lordship , That if he would consider the Tradition of the Church , not only as it is the Tradition of a company of fallible men , in which sense the Authority of it is humane and fallible , but as the Tradition of a company of men assisted by Christ and his Holy Spirit ; in that sense he might easily find it more than an Introduction , indeed as much as would amount to an Infallible Motive . Whence I inferr , that in order to the Churches Testimony being an Infallible Motive to Faith , it must be believed that this company of men which make the Church , are assisted by Christ and his Holy Spirit ; Now I demand , Supposing there were no Scripture extant , ( the belief of which you said before in defence of Bellarmine , was not necessary to salvation ) by what means could you prove such an Infallible Assistance of the Holy Spirit in the Catholick Church in order to the perswading an Infidel to believe ? Could you to one that neither believes Christ , nor the Holy Ghost , prove evidently that your Church had an assistance of both these ? You tell him that he cannot believe that there is a Christ or a Holy Ghost ▪ unless he believes first your Church to be Infallible , and yet he cannot believe your Church to be Infallible , unless he believes there are such things as Christ and the Holy Ghost ; for that Infallibility , by your own confession , doth suppose the peculiar assistance of both these . And can any one believe their assistance , before he believes they are ? If you say , as you do , By the motives of credibility you will prove your Church Infallible . But ( setting aside the absurdity of that which I have fully discovered already ) Is it possible for you to prove your Church Infallible , unless antecedently to the belief of your Churches Infallibility , You can prove to an Infidel the truth of these things ? 1. That the names of Christ and the Holy Ghost , are no Chimerical Fancies and Ideas , but that they do import something real : otherwise an Infidel would speedily tell you , these names imported nothing but some kind of Magical spells which could keep men from errour , as long as they carried them about with them . That as well might Mahomet , or any other Impostor , pretend an infallible assistance from some Tutelar Angels , with hard Arabick names , as you of Christ , and the Holy Ghost unless you can make it appear to him , that really there are such Beings as Christ and the Holy Ghost ; and when you have proved it to him , and he be upon your proof inclinable to believe it , you are bound to tell him by your Doctrine , that for all these proofs , he can only fancy there are such Beings , but he cannot really believe them , unless he first believes your Church infallible . And when he tells you , He cannot , according to your own Doctrine , believe that Infallibility , unless he believes the other first , Would he not cry out upon you , as either lamentable Fools , that did not understand what you said , or egregious Impostors , that play fast and loose with him , bidding him believe first one thing , and then another , till at last he may justly tell you , that in this manner he cannot be perswaded to believe any thing at all . 2. Supposing he should get through this , and believe that there were such Beings as Christ and the Holy Ghost , he may justly ask you , 1. Whether they be nothing else but such a kind of Intellectus Agens , as the Arabick Philosophers imagined , some kind of Being which did assist the understanding in conception ? You answer him No , but they are real distinct personalities of the same nature and essence with God himself ; then he asks , 2. Whence doth this appear ? for these being such grand difficulties , you had need of some very clear evidence of them : If you send him to Scripture , he asks you , To what end ? for the belief of that must suppose the Truth of the thing in Question , that your Church is infallible in delivery of this Scripture for Divine Revelation . But he further demands , 3. Whence comes that Church which you call Infallible to have this Assistance of both these ? Do they assist all kind of men to make them infallible ? You answer , No. But , Do they assist , though not all men separately , yet all societies of men conjunctly ? You answer , No. Do they assist all men only in Religious actions , of what Religion soever they are of ? Still you answer , No. Do they assist then all men of the Christian Religion in their societies ? No. Do they assist all those among the Christians , who say , they have this Assistance ? No. Do they thus assist all Churches to keep them from errour ? No. Whom is it then that they do thus infallibly assist ? You answer , The Church . But what Church do you mean ? The Catholick Church . But , which is this Catholick Church ( for , I hear , there are as great Controversies about that , as any thing . ) You must answer confidently , That Church which is in the Roman Communion , is the true Catholick Church . Have then all in that Communion this Infallible Assistance ? No. Have all the Bishops in this Communion , it ? No. Have all these Bishops this Assistance , when they meet together ? Yes , say you , undoubtedly , if the Pope be their Head , and confirm their Acts. Then it should seem to me , that this Infallible Assistance is in the Pope , and he it is whom you call the Catholick Church : But surely he is a very big man then , is he not ? But , say you , These are Controversies which are not necessary for you to know , it sufficeth that the Catholick Church is the subject of Infallibility . But , I had thought nothing could have been more necessary than to have known this : But I proceed then , How comes this Catholick Church to have this Infallible Assistance ? Cannot I suppose that Christ and the Holy Spirit may exist without giving this Assistance ? cannot I suppose that Christian Religion may be in the world , without such an Infallibility ? Is this Assistance therefore a necessary , or a free Act ? A free Act. If a free Act , then , for all you know , Your Catholick Church may not be so assisted : No , ( you reply ) you are sure it is so assisted . But , Whence can you be sure of an arbitrary thing , unless the Authours of this Assistance have engaged themselves by Promise , to give your Catholick Church that Infallible Assistance ? Yes , that they have ( you reply ) and then produce Luk. 10.16 . Mat. 28.20 . Joh. 14.16 . But , although our Infidel might ask some untoward Questions still ; as , How you are sure these are Divine Promises , when the knowledge that they are Divine must suppose the thing to be true , which you would prove out of them , viz. that your Church is infallible ? Supposing them Divine , how are you sure , That , and no other , is the meaning of them , when from such places you prove , that your Church is the only Infallible Interpreter of Scripture ? But , I let pass these , and other Questions , and satisfie my self with this , That it is impossible for you to prove such an Infallible Assistance of Christ and the Holy Spirit , unless you produce some express Promise for it . 2. This being impossible , it necessarily follows , That the only Motives of Credibility , which can prove your Church Infallible , must be such as do antecedently prove these Promises to be Divine . This is so plain and evident a Consectary from the former , that it were an affront upon humane understanding , to go about to prove it : For , if the Infallibility doth depend upon the Promise , nothing can prove that Infallibility , but what doth prove that Promise to be True and Divine : True , or else not to be believed ; Divine , or else not to be relyed on for such an Assistance ; none else being able to make a promise of it , but the Authour of it . As therefore my right to an estate as given by Will , depends wholly upon the Truth and Validity of that Will , which I must first prove , before I can challenge any right to it ; So your pretence of Infallibility must solely depend upon the Promises which you challenge it by . By which it appears , that your attempting to prove the Infallibility of your Church , by Motives of Credibility , antecedent to , and independent on the Scripture , is vain , ridiculous , and destructive to that very Infallibility which you pretend to . Which , being by a free Assistance of Christ and his Spirit , must wholly depend on the proof of the Promise made of it . For , if you prove no Promise , all your Motives of Credibility prove nothing at all , as I have at large demonstrated before , and shall not follow you in needless repetitions . 3. No right to any priviledge can be challenged , by virtue of a free Promise made to particular persons , unless it be evident that the intention of the Promiser was , that it should equally extend to them and others . For the Promise being free , and the Priviledge such as carries no necessity at all along with it , in order to the great ends of Christian Religion ; it is intolerable Arrogance and Presumption to challenge it , without manifest evidence , that the design of it was for them , as well as the persons to whom it was made . Indeed , in such Promises which are built on common and general grounds , containing things agreeable to all Christians , it is but reasonable to inferr the universal extent of that Promise to all such as are in the like condition . Hence the Apostle inferrs , from the particular Promise made to Joshua , I will never leave thee , nor forsake thee ; the effect of it upon all believers . Although , had not the Apostle done it before us , it may seem questionable on what ground we could have done it , unless from the general reason of of it , and the unbounded nature of Divine Goodness , in things necessary for the Good of his People . But in things arbitrary , and such as contain special Priviledge in them , to challenge a right to a Promise of the same Priviledge , without equal evidence of the descent of it , as the first Grant , is great presumption , and a challenge of the Promisor for partiality , if he doth not make it good . Because the pretence of the right of the Priviledge goes upon this ground , that it is as much due to the Successor , as to the Original Grantee . 4. Nothing can be more unreasonable , than to challenge a right to a Priviledge , by virtue of such a Promise which was granted upon quite different considerations from the grounds on which that right is challenged . Thus I shall after make it evident , that the Promise of an Infallible Assistance of the Holy Ghost , had a peculiar respect to the Apostles present employment , and the first state of the Church , that it was not made upon reasons common to all ages , viz. for the Government of the Church , deciding Controversies , Foundation of Faith , all which Ends may be sufficiently attained without them . But , above all , it seems very unreasonable , that a Promise made to persons in one office , must be applied in the same manner to persons in a quite different office ; that a Promise made to each of them separate , must be equally applied to others only as in Council ; that a Promise made implying Divine Assistance , must be equally applied to such , who dare not say , that Assistance is Divine ( but infallible , and after a sort Divine ) that a Promise made of immediate Divine Revelation , and enabling the persons who enjoyed the Priviledge of it , to work miracles to attest their Testimony to be infallible , should be equally applied to such as dare not challenge a Divine Revelation , nor ever did work a miracle to attest such an Infallible Assistance . Yet all this is done by you in your endeavour of fetching the Infallibility of your Church , out of those Promises of the assistance of Christ and his Spirit , which were made to the Apostles . These general Considerations , do sufficiently enervate the force of your whole Chapter , which yet I come particularly to consider . His Lordship tells A. C. That in the second sense of Church-Tradition , he cannot find that the Tradition of the present Church is of Divine and Infallible Authority , till A. C. can prove that this company of men ( the Roman Prelates and Clergy he means ) are so fully , so clearly , so permanently assisted by Christ , and his Spirit , as may reach to Infallibility , much less to a Divine Infallibilility , in this or any other Principle which they teach . In answer to this , you tell us , That the Bishop declines the Question by withdrawing his Reader from the thesis , to the hypothesis ; from the Church , to the Church of Rome . But , Is it not sufficiently known to all persons who deal in this Controversie , what you mean by the Catholick Church in this Controversie , that it shall not be lawful for his Lordship in a Parenthesis , to shew where you place this Infallibility , but he must be charged with declining the Question ? This only shews a desire to cavil at little things , when you were unable to answer greater . Besides , in the way you take of proving the Churches Infallibility by the Motives of Credibility , there is a necessity even in this Controversie , of declaring what that Catholick Church is , which must be known by these Motives ; and therefore you have no cause to look upon this as running away from the Question . That A. C. after a long and silent attention , did meerly , through the heat of his zeal , become earnest in this business , to do his Adversary good . I must believe it , because you tell me so , though I see no great Motive of Credibility for it . And on that account did desire him , to consider the Tradition of the Church , as of a Company of men infallibly assisted . For such assistance ( you say ) is necessary as well to have sufficient assurance of the true Canon of Holy Scripture , as to come to the true meaning and interpretation thereof . But this is as easily denied as said . We wait therefore for your proofs . That which only seems here intended for that end , is , That when the Relator had said , The Prophets under the Old Testament , and the Apostles under the New , had such an Infallible Divine Assistance ; but neither the High Priest with his Clergy in the Old , nor any Company of Prelates or Priests in the New , since the Apostles , ever had it . To this you reply , That the like assistance ( with the Prophets and Apostles ) the High Priest with his Clergy had in the Old Testament , as we gather out of Deut. 17.8 , &c. Where in doubts the people were bound , not only to have recourse to the High Priest and his Clergy , but to submit and stand to their judgement . Much more then ought we to think , that there is such an obligation in the New Testament ; which could not stand without Infallibility . Witness the infinite dissentions and divisions in Points of Faith , amongst all the different Christians that deny it . Two things the force of this argument lyes in . 1. That there was Infallibility in the High Priest and his Clergy under the Law. 2. That if there were so then , there ought to be so now . Both these must be considered . 1. That there was Infallibility in the High Priest and his Clergy under the Law , which you prove from Deut. 17.8 . Because there the people were not only to have recourse to them , but to submit and stand to their judgement . This argument in form , is this . Where there is to be not only a recourse , but an obligation to submission , there must be Infallibility ; but there were both these among the Jews , as to the High Priest and his Clergy ; ergo . You may see how forcible this argument is in a like case : Where there is to be not only a recourse in matters of difficulty , but an obligation to submit and stand to their judgement , there must be Infallibility ; but to the Parliament of England there ought to be not only a recourse in matters of difficulty , but a submission to their judgement ; therefore the Parliament of England is as infallible as the High Priest and Clergy under the Law , by the very argument by you produced . The same will hold for all Courts of Justice . But , Can you by no means distinguish between an obligation to submission , and an obligation in conscience to assent to what is determined as infallibly true ? Is every person in all judiciary Cases , where submission is required , bound to believe the Judges sentence infallible ? If so , we need not go over the Alps for Infallibility , we may have it much cheaper at home : But , I suppose you will reply , The case is very different , because in the Text by you produced , 1. Not Civil Matters , but Religious are spoken of . 2. That not any Civil Magistrates , but the High Priest and his Clergy are the Judges mentioned . 3. That not every kind of Judgement , but an Infallible Judgement is there set down . But , if every one of these be false , you will see , what little advantage comes to your cause by this Testimony ; which I shall in order demonstrate . 1. That this place speaks not of Religious Causes , as such ; but of Civil Causes , i. e. not of matters of Doctrine to be decided as true or false , but matters of Justice to be determined as to right and wrong . Not but that some things concerning the Ecclesiastical Polity of the Nation might be there decided ; for it was impossible in a Nation , whose Laws depended on their Religion , to separate the one from the other : But , that the Judgement given there , did not determine the truth and falshood of things , so as to oblige mens consciences to believe them ; but did so peremptorily decide them , that the persons concerned were bound to acquiesce in that determination . For the proof of this , one would think , the very reading of the place were sufficient . If there arise a matter too hard for thee in Judgement , between blood and blood , between plea and plea , and between stroke and stroke , being matters of controversies within thy gates , then shalt thou arise and get thee up into the place which the Lord thy God shall chuse , &c. Which words are so generally expressed , on purpose to take in all manner of controversies which might rise among them , whether civil , criminal , or ceremonial . And herein God makes provision against any rupture which might be among them upon any emergent Controversie , by establishing a Court of Appeals , to which all such causes should be brought , in which the lesser Courts could not agree . For that seems to be the main scope of the words , by the following expression of Controversies within thy gates , by which it seems evident , that the Controversies were such as could come to no resolution in those inferiour Courts which sate in the Gates of the Cities ; by which it appears , that these could be no momentous Controversies of Religion , which never came under the cognizance of those inferiour and subordinate Courts . By these words then God doth erect a Supreme Court of Judicature among them , to which they might appeal , not only in case of injury , but in case of difficulty ; and those lesser Courts , as well as particular persons , were to submit to the Decree of the great Sanhedrin , sitting in the place which God should chuse , which was Shilo first , and Hierusalem after . And thence Maimonides so often saith , That the establishment and coagmentation of all the Israelites , did depend upon this place ; for hereby God set up such a Tribunal , to which the last Resort should be made , and from whose determinations there should remain no further appeal . And according to the Tradition of the Jews , these appeals were to be gradual , i. e. in case any Priest should be to seek as to any Ceremonial Cause , as that of Leprosie , brought before him , he was to take advice of the Court of the Triumvirate where he lived ; if that did not agree , then he was to appeal to the lesser Sanhedrin of 23. in the neighbour-City , if there it could not be ended to the Sanhedrin of 23. at the entrance of the Mount of the Temple ; if not there neither , then appeal was made to the Great Sanhedrin , whose sentence was final and peremptory , and was instead of a Law in the Case . 2. You are greatly mistaken in supposing that all this is spoken of the High Priest and his Clergy : I deny not but express mention is made of the Priests and Levites , as those who were supposed most acquainted with all matters of difference which should happen among them ; and therefore were probably the greatest part of the great Sanhedrin ( for it is a groundless fancy to suppose two distinct Courts , the one Civil , and the other Ecclesiastical among the Jews . ) Nay the High Priest himself was so far from being the constant President of this Court , that , if we believe the Tradition of the Jews , he was not admitted to sit there , without the same previous examination and tryal which others underwent . Indeed , in the decay of the Jewish Polity , in the time of the Assomanean Family , the chief Civil Power was in the hands of the High Priest , on which account he might then preside in the Sanhedrin , but that is nothing to this place , where mention is made vers . 9. of the Priests and Levites , and then of the Judge , which is , in case God should raise up among them an extraordinary person , who should be Judge over Israel , then the appeals might be to him ; but otherwise v. 10. they were to do according to the sentence , which they of that place which the Lord shall chuse , shall shew thee , which was the great Sanhedrin . According therefore to the sentence of this Court , whether pronounced by a Priest , or other , they were to act ; and they that refused were punished with death . 3. Whoever the persons were , who gave this Sentence , yet it was not looked on as Infallible ; for it is not said , Whosoever doth not believe the judgement given , to be infallibly true ; but , whosoever acts contumaciously in opposition to it . And the man that will do presumptuously , and will not hearken unto the Priest , or unto the Judge , even that man shall dye . Besides , we are so far from reading of any promise of Infallibility made to the High Priest and his Clergy , or to the Sanhedrin , that God himself doth suppose a possibility of errour in the whole Congregation of Israel , Levit. 4.15 . And all along the Books of the Prophets , we see how much God chargeth the Priests with Ignorance , and forsaking his way . And , I pray , Where was that Infallibility of the High Priest and his Clergy , not only when our blessed Saviour was condemned by him , and the Sanhedrin both ; but in that time , when Israel for a long season had been without the True God , and without a Teaching Priest , and without Law. So that we see what very little relief you have out of this place for the Infallibility of the High Priest and his Clergy . But , suppose we should grant them Infallible , and that Infallibility proved from this place , What is that to us ? Might not you as well challenge the Oracular Responses by Vrim and Thummim to belong to you , as the High Priests Infallibility , supposing he had any ? If God thought it fit to make them Infallible , and gave such express command concerning obedience and submission to their judgement , Is it not very reasonable to think , that under the Gospel there should be express mention made of the subject of this Infallibility , the place whither we should resort for final judgements , as there is here ? Nay , had it not been far more necessary to have specified and determined these circumstances , since they are of such vast importance for the peace of the Christian world ? How easily had all our debates been ended , if God had said any where in the New Testament , When any Controversie of Faith ariseth , go to the place which I shall chuse , viz. Rome , and there enquire the Judgement of the Bishop that shall sit there , and whatever he determines , that believe as infallibly true ; if we had met with any thing so express , nay , that had any seeming tendency this way , How readily should we submit our Controversies to his determination ? But , when there is so little ground or foundation for it there , that you are fain to deduce your Infallibility , from Gods settling a Court of Appeals among the Jews ; Can you think that we are presumptuous , and deserve to be cut off , if we do not believe ? For , for all that I know , you may challenge the sanction of the Law , as well as the Priviledge of it ; and your former practises would perswade us , that you believe the Sanction to be as valid as the other . But ( say you ) the infinite dissentions and divisions among those that deny it , make this necessary . 1. I pray , Doth your pretence of Infallibility put an end to all your divisions ? Nay , Are there not many among your selves , raised meerly on the account of this Infallibility ? Have not many among you , grown so weary of it , that they have wished the name had never been mentioned ? Are not others so ashamed of the thred-bare impertinent places of Scripture , commonly produced , that they have ventured the censure of your Church for disowning them , and have sheltered themselves under the Infallibility of Vniversal Tradition ? Have not some ingenuously confessed , that there is no avoiding the circle on the common grounds ? Are those no differences at all concerning the subject of Infallibility , and the Superiority of Pope and Council ? Happy men ! that have so many coincident distinctions , and such agreeing differences ! 2. Were there not dissentions and divisions in the Apostles times ? And , had it not been , think you , much better for the Apostle , instead of saying , There must be heresies or divisions among you , that they which are approved , may be made manifest , have told them , There must be an Infallible Judge among you , that there may be no heresies or divisions ? If you had been at his Elbow , what prudent advise you would have given S. Paul for ending all the divisions in the Corinthian , Colossian , Galatian Churches , & c ! You must have told him , that it was to very little purpose to wooe them by the many arguments he useth to exhort them so often to unity , and chide them as carnal , while they had dissentions , when one word of an Infallible Judge had ended all of them . But , poor S. Paul knew of no such thing , which made him give as good counsels , as the Spirit of God directed him to ; but alas , they were but sorry things in comparison of an Infallible Judge . Give us leave therefore to reckon our selves among those Primitive Christians , who knew no more than we of any such way to end differences , as Infallibility in a constant Judge , for all they had dissentions and divisions among them as well as we . But you are very angry with his Lordship for taxing this pretence of Infallibility with Insolency , and a design to lord it over the Faith of Christendom . And therefore tell him , You go no further than Christ himself leads you by Promises made of this Infallibility ; That is the thing in question , and must not be taken upon the trust of your Infallibility , in interpreting the places by you alledged . When you can prove the Pastors of your Church , to be as Infallible as the Apostles were , and to have the same Spirit which they had , I shall as little suspect them of Lording it over others as the Apostles : but if it appear quite otherwise as to the Pastors of your Church ; name , if you can , a greater Insolency , than to usurp a power of prescribing to the Faith of the Christian world . As to what follows concerning your Churches Testimony , being again Infallible by the assistance of Christ and his Spirit , and yet not Divinely Infallible , it is so subtle and Scholastical a distinction , that I now begin , not to admire Your so often using it ; for I see plainly , if that wedge , how blunt soever , doth not rive asunder the knot , it is like to remain for any thing you have to say to it . His Lordship having given one Instance of the Insolency of your pretence of Infallibility , by the dangerous errours which your Church doth hold , particularly in equalling the Tradition of the present Church to the written Word of God , which ( saith he ) is a Doctrine unknown to the Primitive Church , and which frets upon the very Foundation it self , by justling with it . But , being well acquainted with the Arts of your party in making a great noise with the Fathers , and particularly in this Controversie , with a citation out of S. Basils Books de Spirit ▪ Sanct. ad Amphilochium , and especially those words , parem vim habent ad pictatem , speaking of Traditions ; he therefore in his Margent so far takes notice of them , as to return this threefold Answer to to them . 1. That he speaks of Apostolical Tradition , and not the Tradition of the present Church . 2. That exceptions are taken at this Book as corrupted . 3. That S. Basil makes Scripture the Touchstone of Tradition . To this you return a Threefold Answer . 1. That 't is true , he speaks of Apostolical Traditions , but of such as were come down to their present times . 2. That the Exceptions against the Book are unreasonable . 3. That S. Basil doth not make the Scripture so to be the touchstone of Tradition , as that Scripture must needs therefore be of greater force and superiour dignity than that of Tradition . Because therefore this is the chief place in Antiquity which is produced on your side in behalf of Traditions , it will deserve a more careful examination in the particulars by you mentioned . 1. You acknowledge that he speaks of Apostolical Traditions , and such as the present Church judged Apostolical ; now you say that the present Church is infallible in judging Apostolical Traditions , and what Traditions are so judged are necessary to be practised . Now I pray consider what difficulties and self-contradictions you have brought your self into , by acknowledging these Traditions to have been judged Apostolical by the present Church . For either that Church at that time was not infallible in judging Traditions , and so the present Church of every age is not Infallible ; or if that was infallible , yours is not ; for your Church differs from the Church in St. Basils time about these very Traditions by him mentioned , your Church not judging them Apostolical . Which will appear by an inspection into those things which are here accounted Traditions by him . Among which he not only mentions signing believers with the sign of the Cross , praying toward the East , the oyl and the abrenunciation used in Baptism , but the consecration of the person to be Baptized , the standing at prayers untill Pentecost , and above all , the trine immersion in Baptism , all which he saith come 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Out of a secret and unpublished Tradition , which our Fathers preserved in a quiet and silent manner . Are these three last then acknowledged by your Church now for Apostolical Traditions or no ? Nay doth not your Roman Catechism absolutely pronounce the trine immersion to be unnecessary for baptism . How can that become unnecessary , which was once infallibly judged to be an Apostolical Tradition ? Either the Church then was out in her judgement , or your Church out in hers ? and choose whether of those you have the more mind to ? either of them will help you to contradict your self . 2. There want not sufficient reasons of suspecting that Book to be corrupted . You say Erasmus was the first who suspected it . Not the first who suspected corruption in St. Basils writings . For Marcus Ephesius in the Florentine Council charged some Latinizing Greeks with corrupting his books against Eunomius , protesting that in Constantinople there were but four Copies to above one thousand which had the passages in them , which were produced by the Latins . But suppose Erasmus were the first : was he not so in discovering the genuine and supposititious writings of several others of the Fathers . We must therefore enquire into the reason which Erasmus had of this suspicion ; Who tells us in his Epistle to John Dantiscus the Poland Embassadour , that by that time he had gone through half this work , he discerned a palpable inequality in the style , sometimes swelling to a Tragical height , and then sinking into a vulgar flatness , having much more of ostentation , impertinent digressions , repetitions , than any of St. Basils own writings which had alwaies a great deal of vigour , simplicity and candour , with great evenness and equality , &c. And although this argument to all that know the worth of that excellent person , especially in his judgement of the writings of the Fathers will seem by no means contemptible , yet we have much greater reason for our suspicion than this meerly from the stile . For if you believe St. Basil was a man who knew how to speak consistencies , that he would not utter palpable and evident contradictions in his writings ; you will have no reason to applaud your self in this as a genuine piece of St. Basils , at least for the latter part of it . For whereas you make this the force of his words , That unwritten Traditions have equal force to stir up piety , with the written Word : You could hardly have named so many words which bear a greater face of contradiction to a multitude of testimonies in his unquestionably genuine writings . For , is it not St. Basil who saith , That it is a manifest falling from the Faith , and an argument of arrogancy , either to reject any point of those things that are written , or to bring in any of those things that are not written ? Is it not St. Basil who bids a man Believe the things that are written , and seek not the things that are not written ? Is it not the same St. Basil , who saith , That every word and action ought to be confirmed by the testimony of Holy Scripture , for confirmation of the Faith of the good , and confusion of the evil ? Is it not he who urgeth that very place to this purpose , Whatsoever is not of Faith is sin ; then whatsoever is without the Holy Scripture , being not of Faith , is sin . Which at least must be understood of such things which men have an opinion of piety and necessity in the doing of . These and many other places may be produced out of his genuine writings attesting the clean contrary to what you produce this place for . What then must we think of him ? Must we say of him as he did of Gregory Thaumaturgus , that he spoke some things not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not as though he believed them ; but for disputation sake , because they served his purpose well ? Or rather , have we not much greater reason considering the contrariety of ●he Doctrine , as well as inequality of style , to follow Erasmus his judgement concerning this Book ? Especially considering that Bellarmin himself , who slights Erasmus his judgement herein ; yet , when he is pinched with a citation out of his Asceticks , calls the sincerity of that Book into question , because he doth not therein seem to admit of unwritten Traditions , which ( saith he ) ad Amphilochium he doth strenuously defend . If therefore he may question another Book for not agreeing with this , we may more justly question this for disagreeing with so many others . Thus you see , it is not meerly the style , and that only on the judgement of Erasmus , which makes this Book suspicious . And from those citations produced out of other writings of St. Basil , the ( 3. ) thing evidently appears , viz. That he so makes the Scripture the touchstone of all Traditions , as that Scripture must be incomparably of greater force and superiour dignity , than any unwritten Tradition whatsoever . But Whether Stapleton in his testimony meant primarily Apostolical Traditions , or others , is not worth the enquiring . Concerning what follows , as to the sincerity and agreement of ancient Copies of Scripture , and the means to be assured of the integrity of them , I have sufficiently expressed my self already . Only what you add concerning the integrity of Traditions above the Scripture , being new , deserves to be considered . For , ( say you ) universal Traditions are recorded in Authours of every succeeding age : and it seems much more incident to have errours s●ip into writings of so great bulk as is the Bible , which in their Editions pass only through the hands of particular men , then that there should be errours in publick , universal , and immemorial Traditions , which are openly practised throughout Christendom , and taken notice of by every one in all ages . And from hence you instance in St. Johns Epistle , or St. Lukes Gospel , which being originally written to particular persons , must be at first received as authentical upon their credit : but , on the other side , Apostolical Traditions ( for which you instance in the Observation of the Lords day , Infant-baptism , use of Altars , &c. ) in their prime Institution and practise being publickly practised and owned by the Apostles ; it was incomparably harder , morally speaking , to doubt in the beginning of these Traditions , then whether St. Johns Epistle , or St. Lukes Gospel were really theirs or no. Whence we see some Books that were written by Apostles were questioned for some time , but these and such like Traditions , were alwayes owned , as truely and really descending from the Apostles . To which I answer , 1. If you prove not some Tradition thus universally owned and received which we have no record of , or ground for the observation of from Scripture , you speak nothing at all to the purpose ; but two of those you instance in , Observation of the Lords day , and Paedobaptism , we have as much as is requisite for the Churches practise from Scripture it self ; for the other , Of the Vse of Altars , it were a work becoming you to deduce the History of them from the Apostolical times , beginning at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or upper room where the Apostles met after Christs Ascension , and so tracing them through all the private houses and Synagogues in which the Christians in the Apostles times had their solemn Assemblies for Divine worship ; thence bringing down the History of them carefully through all the persecutions , and producing evidences to that purpose , out of Tertullian , Origen , Minutius Felix , and Arnobius , only blotting out non where they speak of Altars and Temples among Christians , and telling us that some Protestants had corrupted their Books ; that where they utterly disown them , they did highly magnifie them ; that where they seemed to speak most against them , it was not to let the Heathens know that they had them : By this means indeed you are like to acquaint us with some Vniversal Tradition less lyable to corruption and alteration than the Scriptures . For this of Altars is the only thing by you mentioned , which seems any thing to your purpose , the other two being sufficiently proved from Scripture ; which acquaints us so much with Apostolical practise , as to yield abundant reason for the practise of following Ages . You do well therefore to wrap up all other such Traditions as might vye with the Scriptures for integrity , with a prudent &c. For you cannot but know that this game of Tradition is quite spoiled , if we offer to come to particulars . But it is a fine thing in general to talk of the impossibility of corrupting such a Tradition as had its rise from the practise of the Apostles , and was by them delivered to succeeding ages , and so was universally practised by all Christians as derived from the Apostles ; but when we put but that sullen demand , that such a thing as hath no evidence in Scripture may be named which was so universally received and owned as the Scriptures are , how many put off's , and & c.'s . do we meet with all ? For fear of being evidently disproved in the particular instanced in . 2. If there be so much greater evidence for Tradition than Scripture , whence came the very next ages to the Apostles to be so doubtful as to Traditions , which yet were agreed in receiving the Scripture ? I speak not of such things , which we have not the least evidence the Apostles ever thought of , much less universally practised , ( such as we contend the things in controversie between you and us are ) but in such things which undoubtedly the Apostles did practise , so as that the Christians of that Age could not but know such a practise of theirs . As in that Controversie which soon rise in the Church , about the day of the Observation of Easter ; what contests soon grew between the Asian and Roman Christians about this , both equally pretending Apostolical Tradition , and that at the least distance imaginable from the Apostolical times ? For Polycarpe professed to receive his Tradition from St. John , as those at Rome from St. Peter . If then Traditions be so uncapable of falsification and corruption , how came they to be so much to seek , as to what the Apostolical Tradition was in the very next age succeeding the Apostles ? What , Could not those who lived in St. Johns and St. Peters time know what they did ? Could they be deceived themselves , or had they an intent to deceive their posterity ? If some of them did falsifie Tradition so soon , we see what little certainty there is in the deriving a Tradition from the Apostles : if neither falsified , then it should seem there was no universal practise of the Apostles concerning it , but they looked on it as a matter of indifferency , and some might practise one way , and some another . If so , then we are yet further to seek for an Vniversal Tradition of the Apostles , binding succeeding Ages . For can you possibly think the Apostles did intend to bind unalterably succeeding Ages in such things which they used a Liberty in themselves ? If then it be granted , that in matters of an indifferent nature the Apostles might practise severally as they saw occasion , How then can we be certain of the Apostles universal practise in matters of an indifferent nature ? If we cannot so , we can have no evidence of an Vniversal Tradition of the Apostles , but in some things which they judged necessary . But whence shall we have this unquestionable evidence , first that they did such things , and secondly , that they did them with an apprehension of the necessity of them , and with an intention to oblige posterity by their actions ? By what rule or measure must we judge of this necessity ? By their Vniversal practise ? but that brings us into a plain Circle ; for we must judge of the necessity of it by their Vniversal practise , and we must prove that Vniversal practise by the necessity of the thing . For , if the thing were not judged necessary , the Apostles might differ in their practise from one another . Whence then shall we prove any practise necessary , unless built on some unal●erable ground of reason , and then it is not formally an Apostolical Tradition , but the use of that common reason and prudence in matters of a religious nature : or else by some positive Law and Institution of theirs ; and this , supposing it unwritten , must be evidenced from something distinct from their practise , or else you must assert , that whatever the Apostles did , they made an unalterable Law for ; or lastly , you must quit all Vnwritten Traditions as Vniversal , and must first inferr the necessity , and then the Vniversality of their practise from some record extant in Scripture , and then you can be no further certain of any Vniversal practise of the Apostles , then you are of the Scriptures : by which it will certainly appear that the Scripture is farr more evident and credible , then any Vniversal unwritten Tradition . A clear and evident Instance of the uncertainty of knowing Apostolical Traditions in things not defined in Scripture is one of those you instance in your self , viz. that of Rebaptizing Hereticks which came to be so great a Controversie , so soon after the Apostolical Age. For though this Controversie rose to its height in St. Cyprians time , which was about A. D. 250. yet it was begun some competent time before that . For St. Cyprian , in his Epistle to Jubaianus , where he gives an account of the General Council of the Provinces of Africa and Numidia consisting of seventy one Bishops , endeavours to remove all suspicion of Novelty from their opinion , For ( saith he ) it is no new or sudden thing among us to judge that those ought to be baptized , who come to the Church from Hereticks ; for now many years are past , and a long time , since , under Agrippinus , the Bishops meeting together did determine it in Council , and thousands of Hereticks have voluntarily submitted to it . How far off could that be from the Apostolical times , which was done so long before Cyprians ? And , although S. Augustine ( as it was his interest so to do ) would make this to have been but a few years ; yet we have greater evidence both of the greater antiquity , and larger spread of this Opinion . Whereby we may see , how little the judgement of Vincentius Lyrinensis is to relyed on as to Traditions , who gives Agrippinus such hard words , for being the first who , against Scripture , the Rule of the Vniversal Church , the judgement of all his Fellow-Priests , the custom of his Ancestors , did assert the rebaptization of Hereticks . How little Truth there is in what Vincentius here saies , and consequently , how little certainty in his way of finding out Traditions , will appear from the words of Dionysius of Alexandria , in his Epistle to Philemon and Dionysius concerning this subject . For therein he asserts , That long before that custom obtained in Africa , the same was practised and decreed in the most famous Churches both at Iconium , Synada , and other places . On which account this great person professeth , that he durst not condemn their Opinion who held so . Whether this Synod at Iconium were the same with that mentioned by Firmilian , is not so certain , but , if it were , that can be no argument against the Antiquity of it . For , although Firmilian say , That we long ago , meeting in Iconium , from Galatia , Cilicia , and the neighbour Regions have confirmed the same , viz. that Hereticks should be baptized ; yet , as the learned Valesius observes , the pronoune We , is not to be understood of Firmilian's person , but of his predecessors ; and therefore checks both Baronius and Binius for placing that Synod , A. D. 258. We see therefore , this Opinion was so largely spread , that not only the Churches in Africa , Numidia , and Mauritania favoured it , but almost all the Eastern Christians . For Dionysius in an Epistle to Xystus , who succeeded Stephanus at Rome , wherein he pleads for Moderation as to this Controversie , and desires him more throughly to consider the weight of the business , and not proceed so rashly as Stephanus had done ; he tells him in conclusion , that he writ not this of himself , but at the request of the several Bishops of Antioch , Caesarea , Aelia , Tyre , Laodicea , Tarsus , &c. Nay , and as it appears by Firmilians Epistle , they made no question but this custom of theirs descended from Christ and his Apostles : For telling Cyprian , that in such places where the other custom had been used , they did well to oppose truth to custom ; But we ( saith he ) joyn truth and custom together , and to the custom of the Romans , we oppose the custom of truth , holding that from the beginning , which was delivered by Christ and his Apostles . And therefore adds , Neither do we remember when this practice began , seeing it was alwaies observed among us . And thence charges the Church of Rome , in that Epistle , with violating that , and several other Traditions of the Apostles . But Vincentius Lyrinensis still takes Stephens part ; and all that he hath to say , is , That that is the property of Christian modesty and gravity , not to deliver their own Opinions to their posterity , but to retain the Tradition of their Fore-fathers . As though the other side could not say the same things , and with as much confidence as they did : but all the Question was , What that Tradition was which they were to retain ? The one said one thing , and the other another . But , as Rigaltius well observes , Vincentius speaks very truly and prudently , if nothing were delivered by our Ancestors , but what they had from the Apostles ; but , under the pretence of our Ancestors , silly or counterfeit things may by fools or knaves be delivered us for Apostolical Traditions . And whether this doth not often come to pass , let the world judge . Now therefore , when these persons on both sides had incomparably greater advantages of knowing what the Vniversal Apostolical Practice was than we can have , and yet so irreconcilably differ about it , what likelihood or probability is there , that we may have greater certainty of Apostolical Tradition , than of the Writings of the Apostles ? Especially in such matters as these are , in which it is very questionable , Whether the Apostles had any occasion ministred to them , to determine any thing in them . And therefore when Stephen at Rome , and those of his party pleaded custom , and consequently , as they thought , Apostolical Tradition ; it was not irrationally answered on the other side by Cyprian and Firmilian , that that might be , Because the Apostles had not occasion given them to declare their minds in it , because either the Heresies were not of such a nature as those of Marcion and Cerdon , or else there might not be such returnings from those Heresies in the Apostolical times to the Church ; which being of so black a nature , as to carry in them such malignity , by corrupting the lives of men by vicious practices , there was less probability either of the true Christians Apostatizing into them , or the recovery of such who were fallen into them . To this purpose Firmilian speaks , That the Apostles could not be supposed to prohibit the baptizing of such which came from the Hereticks , because no man would be so silly , as to suppose the Apostles did prohibit that which came not in question till afterwards . And therefore S. Augustine , who concerned himself the most in this Controversie , when he saw such ill use made of it by the Donatists , doth ingenuously confess , That the Apostles did determine nothing at all in it ; but however ( saith he ) that custom which is opposed to Cyprian , is to be believed to have its rise from the Apostles Tradition ; as there are many other things observed in the Church , and on that account are believed to have been commanded by the Apostles , although they are no where found written . But , what cogent argument doth S. Austin use to perswade them this was an Apostolical Tradition ? He grants , they determined nothing in it , yet would needs have it believed , that an Vniversal Practice of succeeding ages , should imply such a determination , though unwritten . But , 1. The Vniversal Practice we have seen already , was far from being evident , when not only the African , but the Eastern Church did practise otherwise , and that on the account of an Apostolical Tradition too . 2. Supposing such an Vniversal Practice , How doth it thence follow , that it must be derived from the Apostles ; unless it be first proved , that the Church could never consent in the use of any thing , but what the Apostles commanded them ? Which is a very unreasonable supposition , considering the different emergencies which might be in the Churches of Apostolical and succeeding times , and the different reasons of practice attending upon them , with that great desire which crept into the Church of representing the things conveyed by the Gospel in an external symbolical manner , whence , in the second Century , came the use of many baptismal Ceremonies , the praegustatio mellis & lactis , as Tertullian calls it , and several of a like nature , which , by degrees , came into the Church : Must we now derive these , and many other customs of the Church necessarily from the Apostles , when , even in S. Austins time , several customs were supposed to be grounded on Apostolical Tradition , which yet are otherwise believed now . As in that known Instance of Infants Participation of the Eucharist , which is otherwise determined by the Council of Trent ; and , for all that I know , the arguments used against this Tradition by some men , may as well hold against Infant-Baptism ; for there is an equal incapacity as to the exercise of all acts of reason and understanding in both : and , as the Scripture seems to suppose such acts of grace in one as have their foundation in the use of reason , it doth likewise in the other , and I cannot see sufficient evidence to the contrary ; but if that place , Except a man be born of water , and of the Spirit , he shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven , taken in the sense of the Fathers , doth imply a necessity of Baptism for all , and consequently of Children ; that other place , Verily , verily , I say unto you , Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man , and drink his blood , ye have no life in you , taken likewise in the sense of the Fathers , will import the necessity of a participation of the Eucharist by Infants as well as others . I speak not this with an intention to plead either for this , or for the rebaptizing Hereticks , but to shew the great uncertainty of knowing Apostolical Traditions ; some things having been taken for such , which we believe were not so , and others which could not be known whether so or no , by the ages next succeeding the Apostles . And therefore let any reasonable person judge what probability there is in what you drive at , that Apostolical Traditions may be more easily known than Apostolical Writings . By which it appears , ( 3. ) How vain and insufficient your reasons are , Why Traditions should not be so liable to corruption as the Scriptures . 1. You say , Vniversal Traditions are recorded in Authours of every succeeding age ; and it seems more incident to have the Bible corrupted than them , because of its bulk and passing through the hands of particular men ; whereas universal and immemorial Traditions , are openly practised and taken notice of by every one in all ages . To which I answer , 1. That you give no sufficient reason why the Bible should be corrupted . 2. And as little why Traditions should be more preserved than that . Two Accounts you give why the Bible might be corrupted by errours , because of its bulk , and passing through the hands of particular men . But , Do you think it a thing impossible , or at least unreasonable , to suppose that a Book of no greater bulk than the Bible , should , by the care and vigilancy of men , through the assistance of Divine Providence , be preserved from any material corruptions or alterations ? Surely , if you think so , you have mean thoughts of the Christians in all ages , and meaner of Divine Providence : For , you must suppose God to take no care at all for the preservation of a Monument of unspeakable concernment to the good of mankind ; and you must conceive the Christians , in all ages , to be stupendiously careless and negligent , either in transcribing , or reading the Scriptures , which could suffer errours to slip into them , without discovery of them . Do you think that the Christians had no higher esteem of the Scriptures , than of the Vse of Altars , or any other of your immemorial Traditions ; but , say you , The one were publick , and the other passed through the hands of particular men . It should seem then , their Altars were upon high places , but the Scriptures were only read in corners , never any such thing being publickly read as the Bible , so that any alteration might be there , and no notice at all taken of it . The poor African Bishop found the contrary to his sorrow , who was in such danger from the people , for altering but one word according to S. Hieroms Translation , as S. Austin reports the story . But , suppose it passed through the hands of particular men , Was it therefore more liable to be corrupted ? I should think just the contrary ; unless you could suppose all those particular men to agree in corrupting it , which , considering the difference of opinions , capacities , and interests , is a most unreasonable supposition ; that some verbal and literal mistakes might slip in , you might rationally imagine , but that therefore any great corruptions should creep into it , argues your mean thoughts both of Gods Providence , and the care of the Christian world . Well , but still it is impossible to corrupt your Traditions . It were a much harder matter to free your Traditions from being corruptions themselves of the purity of the Christian Church . And why so hard for them to be corrupted ? Because recorded in Authours of every succeeding age . I had thought , all Books of equal , or much bigger bulk than the Scripture , had been as liable to corruption as that ; but it seems not . If a Book be written of Traditions , the very Traditions will preserve it pure , though as big as that Livy , Quem mea vix totum bibliotheca capit : But that is not all , it seems , these Traditions are recorded in Authours of every succeeding age : Unhappy men we , that cannot find them there ! I wish , instead of writing Controversies , you would write the history of these Traditions ; but , be sure to deduce them through the Authours of every succeeding age ; and , I suppose , you mean , ever since the Apostles . I shall then indeed believe Popish Traditions to be no Novelties , but not before . But , let us grant this : Were not the Scriptures attested by the same Authours ? No , It seems , they were agreed about all Traditions , but not so about the Scripture . And the reason is , Because the Scriptures were first delivered to private men , as S. John 's Epistle , and S. Luke 's Gospel ; but Traditions had an universal practice . But , Can you suppose it otherwise , but that particular Books must be first delivered to private men ? Would you have them delivered only to General Councils , or the Pope and his Cardinals ? It seems , S. John was to blame for not directing his Epistle to the Pope , instead of Gaius ; and S. Luke his Gospel to a General Council , instead of Theophilus ; for then we might have had Infallible Certainty of them ; but now it is a plain case , we can have no more than Moral Certainty that ever they were theirs . But , for this trick , it seems , they fared the worse ; for some Books were doubted of , for many years , in particular Churches . It is well yet , they were not discarded by your Catholick Church , because the Apostles did not put their Books into your hands to recommend them . But what if some Books , by some men , were for some time doubted of , which yet were afterwards universally received upon sufficient evidence ? Why then ( say you ) Tradition hath much advantage of Scripture ? How so ? Was no Tradition , which would be accounted universal , doubted of by any men at any time ? No ( say you ) it is impossible it should , for universal Traditions were universally practised at all times . Now you speak home ; and nothing wants to the proof of it , but only to let us know , What these Vniversal Traditions are , which were so universally practised in all ages , containing things different from Scripture , which are recorded in the Authours of every succeeding Age. Your offer is so fair , that my request shall be very short ; name them , and prove them , and I will believe you , but not before . So much for this , which , though a digression in this Chapter , yet is not from the design of this discourse . Setting aside therefore your discourse about A. C ' s. Pen being troubled , in which is nothing worth our notice ; I come to the main dispute of this Chapter , which is , Whether the Promises of Infallibility made to the Apostles , are to be restrained to their own times , or to be extended to the present Church in all ages ? We assert the former , and you the latter . For which you produce this argument , That from these very places , Christians do inferr , that the Church shall never fall away and perish . For if the assistance be not to preserve the succeeding Church , at least from some kind of errours infallibly ; it may , notwithstanding all the assistance he allows it here , fall into all kind of errours one after another , and so by degrees , the whole Church might fall into a general Apostacy , and thereby perish . There must therefore be some kind of infallible assistance in the Apostles successors , by virtue of these Promises . But , 1. Is it all one to say , There shall alwaies be a Church , and to say , That Church shall alwaies be infallible ? Those , who from the places in question , do prove , that the Church shall never quite fall away , do not dream of a present Infallibility in your sense , but that there alwaies shall be a number of men professing Christianity in the world : And , Cannot you possibly conceive , that there should be such a number of men professing Christianity without Infallibility ? To help therefore your understanding a little ; suppose that all the members of the Roman Church should in one age be destroyed ( and , according to your former Principle , that if a Church may erre , we cannot be certain but that it doth erre ; because this may be , we cannot be certain but that it is ) but we only make the supposition : Do not you think that there would be still a number remaining , who profess Christianity , of the Greek and Protestant Churches ? yet , I hope , you will not say , that these were infallible . There may be then a number of Christians , who are not infallible ; and that is all which is meant by saying , That the present Church is infallible in Fundamentals , viz. that there shall alwaies be a Church , for that which makes them a Church , is the belief of Fundamentals ; and if they believe not them , they cease to be so . That therefore which being supposed , a Church is , and being destroyed , it ceaseth to be , is the formal constitution of it ; but thus it is as to the Church , the belief of Fundamentals makes it a Church , and the not belief of them makes them cease to be a Christian Church ; I speak of an Essential , and not of an Organical Church ; and , I know not who those persons are , who , out of those places , do inferr the perpetuity of an Organical Church ; nor , if they did , doth it thence follow , they must suppose an Infallible Assistance , beyond an Essential to make it an Organical Church . For I cannot imagine what necessity can be supposed of Infallibility , in order to that which may be sufficiently constituted without it . 2. I answer , the perpetuity of the Church doth rather argue the Infallibility of the Promise then of the Church . Which if you did consider , you would not certainly inferr Infallibility from a promise of Perpetuity . For all the Infallibility supposable in this case is an Infallibility of Accomplishment of the Promise made . As in a clear and parallel Instance of that Promise , The Scepter shall not depart from Judah , nor a Lawgiver from between his feet , untill Shiloh come . Taking it in the most received Interpretation among Christians , that the Jewish Polity should remain till the dayes of the Messias ; doth this inferr , that there should be a continual Infallibility in the Jewish Polity , because there was a Promise made of its perpetuity ? When God saith , In Jerusalem have I set my name for ever , doth it follow that Jerusalem should be alwayes Infallible ? But how would you triumph beyond all reason , if you had but any thing like such a promise for Rome , as that is for Jerusalem ? Supposing then that the Promises by you insisted on , should be so far extended , as to imply a perpetuity of a Christian Church what doth that argue , but only this , that to make it appear that Promise is Infallibly true , there shall alwaies be a succession of Christians in the world . 3. Suppose I should grant that the being of a Christian Church doth suppose the assistance of Gods Spirit , is there no assistance , but what is Infallible ? If not , no one can be a Christian without Infallibility ; For we speak of no other assistance , but what is necessary to make men Christians ; for , what makes them such severally , take them conjunctly makes them a Church . But if you , besides what assistance is requisite to make them Christians , do suppose somewhat more to make them a Church , I pray name what it is ; and whatever it be , it will not be owned by such who inferr a perpetuity of a Church out of these places . But if in order to that no more be meant , ( as no more can be meant ) then what is necessary to make men Christians then Infallibility will grow so cheap and common , it will not be worth challenging by you for your Church . 4. Suppose I grant this assistance to be Infallible , doth all Infallible assistance make an Infallible Testimony ? I am sure not in their sense , who say the Church is infallible in Fundamentals , for they never offer to assert that the present Church is Infallible in defining what are Fundamentals , and what not . And this is the only Infallibility in question , viz. Such a one as makes the Testimony of those who have it Infallible . For such a kind of assistance was that of the Apostles , which is only the thing enquired after . If you can therefore prove such an Infallibility in your Churches Testimony , as the Apostles had , you do something ; but what is short of this , is nothing at all to the purpose . 5. Suppose I should grant the Testimony of the Catholick Church to be Infallible , yet all these concessions were nothing for your advantage , unless you could as evidently prove that your Church is the only Catholick Church . Which that you can never do , will appear when we come to that question . 6. Suppose I should yield the Catholick Churches Testimony to be Infallible , and your Church to be the Catholick Church ; yet all this is far from proving Pope , or Council , or both to be Infallible . For , By what means come they to claim the Infallibility as belonging to them which is given to the Church ? by what deeds are the conveyances settled of the priviledges of the Church to them ? Where is it ever said in Scripture , or in the least intimated , that the Promises made to the Church are to be understood of the representative Church ? The Apostles had this Promise in their personal capacities made to them , and not in a representative ; how comes then the Promise to be understood of a representation afterwards ? Thus you see , that you are at least six removes from any title to claim this Infallibility from these Promises by : and therefore you have little hopes that your claim should be admitted upon so slender a title . From this therefore at present you fly off , to the vindicating A. C. from asserting Infallibility belonging to all the Doctors and Pastors of the Church ; which yet is a very good design to vindicate a man from his own words . For are they not as express as may be , viz. That there is the Promise of Christ , and his Holy Spirits continual presence , Luk. 10.16 . Matth. 28.19 , 20. Joh. 14.16 . not only to the Apostles , but to their Successours also , the lawfully sent Pastours and Doctors of the Church in all Ages . To which his Lordship saith , Here 's a deal of Infallibility indeed , and yet errour store . You presently cry out , But what shall we say to an Adversary that forges what Chimerical doctrine he pleases , and then fights against it . What Chimerical Doctrine is that which he forges ? doth he not relate A. C's . words ? and do you , or can you , deny them to be his words ? But say you , This was not his meaning . I suppose you mean , That his words as they are , are not defensible , and therefore you must have a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for them : which is , That he did not understand these words of every Doctor apart , but of Pastors and Doctors lawfully assembled in Oecumenical Councils . But , 1. Are Pastors and Doctors never lawfully sent , but when they are in Oecumenical Councils ? for it is plain A. C. speaks of them as lawfully sent . 2. Have Pastors and Doctors met in Oecumenical Councils in all Ages ? I would you could prove a truly Oecumenical Council in any Age ; but sure you never pretend to it in all Ages , yet if A. C's . words have any sense in them , they speak of such an Infallibility , as belongs to the Church in all Ages . And therefore this plaister is a great deal too narrow to cover the sore . But say you , Every Authour is to be understood to mean by his words , what they will properly bear ; and is consonant with the meaning of his other words . I most freely grant you this and all that follows , if you will prove it impossible for any man to speak non-sense , or contradictions ; But I can more easily prove it very possible for a man to speak things which contradict one the other , which I have sufficiently proved from your own dear self in this very Discourse of Infallibility . What follows concerning the Jesuits pretence of Infallibility to themselves ( proved by his Lordship , from the words of the Apologist , to whom Casaubon replies in his Epistle to Fronto Ducaeus , which are these , Let day and night — life and death be joyned together , and then there will be some hope that Heresie may fall upon the person of a Jesuite ) is very well worth the observing , were it only for that rare and incomparable answer , which you make to them . In which , it is hard to guess whether your ingenuity or your wit surpass the other . Rabbi Casaubon , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , must help him out . An Apologist saith Casaubon averres , 't is impossible for a Jesuite to err . Who is this Anonymus Apologist ? A Jesuite or a Minister ? for an Apologist and a Jesuite , are no more convertible terms , than a Jesuite and a Minister . How shall we know then , whether this nameless Apologist was a Jesuite , or a Minister personating a Jesuite ? The Gospel will tell us : Ex fructibus eorum cognoscetis eos . O rare Drollery ! doth this pass for wit at Rome ? or must we think you speak these words in good earnest ? If so , your Ignorance is more then ordinary in these matters . For to pass by your unworthy reflection on that excellent person Isaac Casaubon , whose memory is as farr above your detraction , as his learning beyond your reach ; and , to let go your scurrilous Greek Proverb , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which some will tell you was Greek for a Jesuite ) are you really so Ignorant , that you did not know whether the Apologist , whose words are cited , were a Jesuite or a Minister ? What not he , who professedly undertakes the Vindication of the Jesuites ? not he , who was so seriously recommended by Fronto Ducaeus a Jesuite himself ? not he , who industriously vindicates Ribadeneira , Scribanius , Emanuel Sa , Bellarmin , and others , in their doctrine which doth most reflect on the Power and Authority of Princes ? not he , who extolls Father Garnet who was executed in England for the Gunpowder-treason , yet for all this not he known to be a Jesuite ? Are you yet to seek ? Apply but your own rule of the Gospel to what is said already , and by those fruits you cannot but know him to be a Jesuite . But now , notwithstanding the sufficient answers which have been so often given to the places produced for the proof of the Churches Infallibility out of Scripture , You thought it no needless trouble in A. C. to mention them , and much less in your self to vindicate them from the Bishops Interpretation : The places are Luk. 10.16 . He that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me . Matth. 28.20 . I am with you alwaies to the end of the world . Joh. 14.16 . The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever . That which you would inferr from these places , is , That an Infallible assistance is promised to the Church in all ages , not in its diffusive sense but representative , viz. in the Pastors and Doctors assembled in Council . The substance of his Lordships answer to these places , is in these words ; These promises were made of continual presence and assistance , that I grant ; and they were made to the Apostles and their Successors , that I grant too , but in a different degree . For it was of continual and Infallible assistance to the Apostles , but to their Successors of continual and fitting assistance , but not Infallible . To this you return no answer in general , but endeavour to evince the contrary from the particular places , by disproving his Interpretations of them . To the first therefore Luk. 10.16 . He that heareth you heareth me , &c. His Lordship answers , That this was absolutely true in the Apostles , who kept themselves to that which was revealed by Christ ; but it was to be but conditionally true in their Successors , i. e. so long and so farr as you speak my words and not your own . For where the command is for Preaching , the Restraint is added . Go , saith Christ , and teach all Nations : but you may not Preach all things that you please , but all things which I have commanded you . The publication is yours , the Doctrine is mine ; and where the Doctrine is not mine , there your publication is beyond , or short of your commission . To this you reply , That this is rather to pervert our Saviours words , than to Interpret them , is manifest . And the reason you give , is , Because a Sectary , who denies the Apostles Infallibility as well as the Churches , might apply this restraint to the Apostles themselves , as well as he now applies it to their Successors . But they are strange kind of Sectaries indeed who deny the Apostles Infallibility , and my memory doth not serve me with any such who asserted Christs Infallibility and denyed the Apostles ; but if there be any such Sectaries , let us know them , that we may then say , There are some in the world who believe great absurdities as well as you . However let us for the present , take this for a supposition , that any men might do so ; whether then they might not say , the Apostles were only Infallible when they spake Christs words and not their own , i. e. delivered his Doctrine and not any other . No doubt they might , and said very well in it too . And if these be the Sectaries you mean , I am one of them my self ; For I believe , the Apostles were no further Infallible then as they delivered Christs Doctrine to the world , and I suppose there are many such Sectaries besides my self . But all the difference then between the Apostles and their Successors was this , that those who heard the Apostles Doctrine had ground to believe them Infallible in what they delivered for Christs Doctrine ; but we have no ground to believe so of any Church since the Apostles times , that it is Infallible in delivering the Doctrine of Christ to others . The promise then of Infallible assistance as made to the Apostles doth imply that Gods Spirit would be so with them , that they should deliver nothing for the revealed will of God or the Doctrine of Christ , but what was really and truly so . And if you can from this or any other place prove such an Infallible assistance to the Church of all ages , you do something , but not otherwise . But for this particular place , He that heareth you heareth me ; I have something more yet to say , which may manifest how wholly impertinent it is to your purpose . 1. It seems to me very questionable , whether any such thing as Infallibility be at all implyed in this place : and then certainly from hence you cannot inferr a successive Infallibility in the Church . And the reasons why I question it , are , 1. The Apostles themselves had not that continual Infallible assistance of the Spirit of God till after Christs Ascension , when the promise of Christs sending his Spirit upon them was remarkably accomplished , Will you say then they had Infallible assistance by the Spirit , before the promise of that Infallible assistance was made to them ? If then the Apostles themselves had not such a continual Infallible assistance , much less the LXX . Disciples who are here spoken of . 2. The message they were sent upon did not at all require any Infallible assistance , for it was only a preparative message , they not being sent to deliver fully the Doctrine of Christ , but to tell them , The Kingdom of God is at hand , or nigh unto you , ver . 9 , 11. i. e. that blessed state of things under the Messias is now ready to be revealed to you : the whole design therefore of that commission of the LXX . Disciples and the Apostles , when they were first sent abroad , was of the same nature with Baptist's , viz. to prepare people for the reception and entertainment of that Doctrine which Christ should deliver to them . Now what Infallible assistance can be supposed necessary in order to this ? 3. The words imply nothing of Infallible assistance in them . For when Christ saith , He that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me , and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me : the plain meaning is no more than this , They which hearken to your message , and believe the truth of what you say , do therein manifest their readiness to hearken to me , and consequently will receive my Doctrine , when it is delivered to them ; but they who despise this message of yours , the affront they offer you , reflects most on me who sent you ; and they shall find to their sorrow , that in rejecting me they reject God too , who will punish them severely for it : which , that it is the meaning of the words , will very easily appear to any one that considers the scope and design of the place . Now is it not possible for any to declare their respect to Christ by receiving his Messengers , without believing those Messengers to be Infallibl● ▪ If that be possible , then what kind of Infallibility can you hence inferr ? 2. Suppose I should grant these LXX Infallible in what they delivered , yet nothing can be hence drawn for the Churches continual Infallibility , because of the different reason of one from the other , and that will appear in these things . 1. These were immediately sent abroad by Christ himself , when there were no Infallible writings containing this Doctrine , made by himself or his Apostles . And was there not then much more reason for such an Infallibility then there can be now ? 2. These had sufficient evidences to attest that Infallibility , by that power of Miracles , which they had in curing diseases and casting out of Devils , ver . 9. — 17. And therefore those they were sent to had sufficient inducement to believe such an Infallibility , if they had pretended to it ; when therefore you can prove the like of your lawfully sent Doctors and Pastors , either a-part or in a General Council , you may then from hence argue some thing toward that Infallibility , but not before . In your following words you acknowledge a difference in applying this text to the Apostles and their Successors , For it was true in every one of the Apostles apart , but it is not so in every one of the succeeding Pastors ; and for this you give these Reasons , 1. Your adversaries and you are agreed in it , viz. That the Pastors apart are fallible . 2. 'T is manifest by experience , that many eminent Pastors have not only been erronious , but heretical . 3. There is universal Tradition for it . 4. Plain Scripture for it , that even from themselves there should arise some that should speak perverse things . These reasons I acknowledge to be so true , that , if you had expressed the Pope himself in them , you could not have proved his fallibility better , then by Experience , Consent , and Scripture . But yet you have two Reserves in a Corner , which marr all the rest , viz. that from these places you make General Councils infallible , and , according to your most received perswasion , the Pope too . Do you so indeed ? and from these places ? and both of them Infallible , whether they agree or not ? But if our reasons be not stronger against any such Infallibility deducible from these places , than yours are for it ( for I have not seen any ) I am content to blind my understanding so much , if I can , as to believe what you say , That to give reasons against your exposition is impossible . But as your reason in all other things is weak , so in this it appears , that either your ignorance or your confidence is intolerable . The next place , is , Matth. 28.20 . I am with you alwaies , even unto the end of the world . To which his Lordship saith , Yes most certain it is , present by his spirit ; for else in bodily presence , he continued not with his Apostles but during his abode on earth . And this promise of his spiritual presence was to their Successors ; else why to the end of the world ? The Apostles did not , could not live so long ; But then to the Successors , the Promise goes no further , than , I am with you alwaies , which reaches to continual assistance , but not to Divine and Infallible . What say you now to this ? Why forsooth , It is the same answer as before , and therefore deserves no further refutation . But doth it not deserve some further proof of your Infallibility from this place ? Or are you content to let it go , because you cannot but see , that a spiritual presence and not infallible is hereby promised , either to the Apostles or their Successors , although from other places it appears , that the spiritual presence of Christ with his Apostles did extend to so high a degree , as to make them infallible in what they delivered for the Doctrine of Christ , but no place of Scripture doth assert so much of the Churches infallibility . It is well then that you grant , that St. Gregory did not believe any infallible assistance in the Pastors of the Church ; but ( you say ) he understood it of them apart , to make which probable , you must produce some other places , where he saith otherwise of them in Council . But how a gracious presence of Christ with his Church , which you grant Rhabanus Maurus meant by this place , should suppose a conjunctive infallibility of the Pastors as a necessary foundation and support of the Church diffusive , I confess is beyond my understanding ; but at least you say , it denies it not : neither doth it deny that you or I are infallible ; but doth it therefore follow that we are so ? What places you produce ( or rather bid us go seek for out of the Fathers ) to prove that they , in effect , ( it seems then , not evidently ) do attribute infallibility to the Church ( but by no means Divine infallibility , for this is more than the third time that you have forbid the Banes between those two words Divine and Infallible ) will to any that reads them appear to be capable of proving no more than the Perpetuity of a Church in the world ; but if any of them can do any better service , I doubt not , but we shall again meet with them , and therefore shall adjourn their consideration to a more convenient place . To prove that any of the Fathers have denyed this place to extend to infallibility , is a very unreasonable thing which you put the Bishop and his party upon , because they only deliver what they conceive the meaning of places to be , without reflections on any Heresies , but such as were most prevalent in their own times . And if your Church had in their time challenged Infallibility from such places , you might have heard of their Negative , which at present you put us unreasonably to prove . Your answer to John 14.16 . only is , that it must be understood in some absolute sense ; and doth not his Lordship say so too , viz. in regard of Consolation and Grace . But if you say , there can be no other absolute sense , but an infallible assistance , you would do well to prove it and not barely to suppose it : and so likewise , what follows as to John 16.13 . ( which his Lordship justly restrains to the Apostles alone ) you tell us , That you contend , that in whatsoever sense all truth is to be understood in respect of each Apostle apart , it is also to be understood in relation to their Successors , assembled in a full Representative of the whole Church . That you contend , we grant ; but we say , it is without sense or reason . And therefore come to examine what you produce for it . Your first reason , Because the Representative of the Church in General Council , and the Bishop of Rome as Pastor of the whole Church , have equal power to oblige the Church to believe what they deliver , as each Apostle had , is utterly denied , and must be more then barely supposed as it is here . Your second , which you call the Fundamental reason of this Exposition is , in short , That the preservation of the Church requires infallibility in future ages of the Church , as well as in the Apostles times , which is again utterly denied ; And the next time you write , I pray prove your reasons well ; and think not your confident producing things you know are denied by us , will serve for reasons against us . Before you can sufficiently prove that any rite of the Church , not mentioned in Scripture , had the Holy Ghost for its Authour , especially when contrary to a custome expressed in Scripture , you must do more then produce a single testimony of St. Augustine for it ; who was apt to suppose the Holy Ghost might be pleased with such things , which the Church , though not therein infallible , might consent in the practise of . Which certainly is far from supposing the Church to have infallible assistance with it , in delivering Doctrines of Faith ; because some things might be used in the Church which the Holy Ghost might be supposed not displeased with , which is the utmost can be made of your citation out of St. Austin . It seems you were aware of that disparity between the Apostles times and ours , as to the pretence of Infallibility , because the Apostles were first to deliver this Doctrine to the world , and after to consign it by writing to future ages ; from whence it were easie to inferr , there could not be that necessity of a Continual Infallible Assistance in the Church , because the Doctrine infallibly delivered by them is preserved in the Church by the Infallible Records of it . But to this your answer is considerable . What wise man ( say you ) would go about to raise a stately building for many ages , and satisfie himself with laying a Foundation to last but for a few years ? Our Saviour the wisest of Architects , is not to be thought to have founded this incomparable building of the Church upon sand ; which must infallibly have happened , had he not intended to afford his continual assistance also to the succeeding Pastors of the Church , to lead them , when assembled in a General Council , into all those truths wherein he first setled the Apostles . Whether you call this arguing for the Churches infallibility , or libelling against our blessed Saviour if he hath not done what you would have him , is hard to determine . I am sure , it is arguing ab absurdo with a witness ; for if he hath not done , just as you fancy he should have done ; he must venture to be accounted an Ignoramus and Impostor before , and here to do that which no wise man would have done , viz. build a stately Fabrick , the Church , upon the Sands . So it seems you account the Prophets and the Apostles : for if the Apostle may be credited , we are built on the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ himself being the chief Corner-stone . And this is it you must mean by being built on the sand ; for herein it is plain , the Church is built on these , viz. that Infallible doctrine which was delivered by them , but here is not one word or the least intimation of an inherent infallibility in the Church which was to be its foundation so as to secure it from all errour . And this ( you say ) must infallibly happen , if there be not the same infallibility in General Councils which was in the Apostles ; for that I suppose must be the meaning of your last words , if they be to the purpose . But how groundless your pretence of the Infallibility of General Councils is , will appear when we come to that subject ; but have you so little of common sense and reason with you , as to suppose the Church presently notwithstanding the Divine Revelation of the Doctrine of Christianity in Scripture to be built on Sand , if General Councils be not infallible ? Is there not sufficient ground to rely on the Doctrine of Christianity , supposing there never had been any General Council in the world ? What was the Church built on before the Nicene Council , only on Sand ? surely the Wind and Billows of persecutions would then have easily overturned it . What if through civil combustions in the Empire there could never have been any Assembly's of the Bishops afterwards , must the Church needs have fallen to the ground for want of General Councils ? But why , I pray , must the Infallibility of the Apostles be compared only to a foundation that can last but for few years ? Do you suppose that these Apostles never did commit their Doctrine infallibly to writing ; or that these writings of theirs did last but for a few years ? without one of these , it is hard to find out your meaning by those expressions . If you deny either of them , I shall readily prove them : but if you affirm both these , ( as if you are heartily a Christian you must do ) with what face can you say that Christ , in making the Apostles infallible , did lay a Foundation but for a few years . But thanks be to God , although perverse and unreasonable men are alwaies quarrelling with the methods of Divine wisdom and goodness , this Foundation of the Lord standeth sure still ; and , as long as the Infallible Doctrine of the Gospel continues , the Church will be built on a stedfast and unmoveable Rock , which will prove a much surer Foundation than the seven Hills of Infallibility . But this is your grand and fundamental mistake , to suppose a Church cannot continue without a vital inherent Principle of Infallibility in her self , which must be discovered by Infallible Directions from the Head of it : whereas we grant the necessity of an Infallible Foundation of Faith , but cannot discern either from Scripture , Reason , or Antiquity , that there must be a living and standing Infallible Judge , which must deliver and interpret those Infallible Records to us . We grant then Infallibility in the Foundation of Faith , we assert the highest Certainty of the Infallibility of that Foundation , we declare that the owning of that Infallible Foundation is that which makes men Christians ( the body of whom we call a Church ) we further grant , that Christ hath left in his Church sufficient means for the preservation of it in Truth and Unity ; but we deny that ever he promised such an Infallibility to be constantly resident in that Church , as was in the Prophets and Apostles ; and that neither any intention of Christ , or any reason in the thing can be manifested , why such an Infallibility should be so necessary for the Churches preservation , that without it the Wisdom of Christ must be questioned , and the Church built on a sandy Foundation . Your citation of Vincentius Lyrinensis proves nothing but the Churches constancy in adhering to that Doctrine of Faith , which was delivered from the beginning ; but how that should prove a Constant Infallibility , I cannot understand , unless it is impossible that there should be any Truth , where there is no inherent Infallibility . Thus we see , what very little success you have in the attempt of proving the Churches continual Infallibility from Scripture . From hence you proceed to the consideration of the way , How Scripture and Tradition do mutually confirm each other . His Lordship grants , That they do mutually , but not equally , confirm the authority either of other . For Scripture doth infallibly confirm the authority of Church-Traditions , truly so called : but Tradition doth but morally and probably confirm the authority of the Scripture . This ( you say ) is apparently false , but endeavour not to make it evident , that it is so : Only you say , A. C. refused already to grant it . Et quid tum postea ? Must every thing be false which A. C. refuses to grant ? But let us see , whether his Similitude makes it out . For ( saith he ) 't is as a Kings Embassadours word of mouth , and his Kings Letters bear mutual witness to each other . Just so indeed ( saith his Lordship ) For his Kings Letters of Credence under hand and Seal , confirm the Embassadours authority infallibly to all that know his Seal and hand : But the Embassadours word of mouth confirms his Kings Letters , but only probably . For else , Why are they call●d Letters of Credence , if they give not him more credit , than he gives them ? To which you make a large Reply . 1. That the Kings hand and Seal cannot confirm infallibly to a Forein King , who neither knows hand nor Seal , the Embassadours authority ; and therefore this reacheth not the business , How we should know infallibly , that the Scripture is Gods Word . 2. That the primary reason , Why the Embassadour is admitted , is his own credit , to which correspond the motives of Credibility of the Church , by which the Letters of Credence are admitted . 3. That none can give authority to the Letters of Credence , or be infallibly certain of them , but such as infallibly know that hand and Seal . 4. That none can infallibly know that hand and Seal , but such as are certain of the Embassadours sincerity . But , Doth all this disprove what his Lordship saith , That though there be a mutual Testimony , yet it is not equal ; for , although the Letters of Credence might be the sooner read and admitted of , on the Embassadours Reputation and Sincerity , yet still those Letters themselves , upon the delivery of them , may further , and in a higher degree , confirm the Prince he is sent to , of his authority to act as Embassadour . Supposing then , that there be a sufficient Testimony , that these Letters were sealed by the Secretary of State , who did manifest his Sincerity in the highest manner in the sealing of them ; though a Forein Prince might not know the hand and Seal , yet upon such a creditable Testimony , he may be assured that they were sealed by the Prince himself . But then withall , if the Embassadour , to assure the Prince , offers his own life to attest the truth of his Credentials , and the Prince by reading the Letters , find something in them which could not be written by any other than that Prince , he then hath the highest certainty he can desire . This is the case between Tradition and Scripture ; General Tradition at first makes way for the first admission of Scripture , as the general repute of an Embassadours coming doth for his access to the Prince ; the particular Tradition of the Church , is like the Embassadours affirming to the Prince , that he hath Letters of Credence with him ; but then , when he enquires into the Certainty of those Letters , those Motives of Credibility ( not which relate to the person of the Embassadour ) but which evidently prove the sealing of those Letters ( as the constant Testimony of such who were present at it , the Secretaries and Embassadours venturing their lives upon it ) must confirm him in that ; and lastly , his own reading the Credentials , give him the highest Confirmation , i. e. The testimony of those who saw the miracles of Christ and his Apostles , and confirmed the Truth of their Testimony , by their dying for it , are the highest inducement to our believing that the Scriptures were sealed by God himself in the miracles wrought , and written by his own hand , his Spirit infallibly assisting the Apostle ; but still , after all this , when in these very Scriptures we read such things as we cannot reasonably suppose could come from any but God himself ; this doth in the highest degree settle and confirm our Faith. Therefore , as to the main scope for which this Similitude was used by his Lordship , it holds still ; but your mistake lyes , in supposing that the Embassadours reception depended wholly on his own single Testimony , and that was enough to make any Prince infallibly certain that his Letters of Credence are true , which cannot be , unless he knows before-hand that Embassadour to be infallibly true , which is impossible to be supposed at his first reception . Yet this is plainly your case , that the Scriptures are to be infallibly believed on the single Testimony of the present Church , which is , to make the Embassadour himself give authority to his Letters of Credence , and set hand and seal to them . Whereas the contrary is most evident to be true . But then , supposing these Credentials admitted , the Prince transacts with the Embassadour , according to that power which is conveyed to him therein . And thus it is in the present case : Not as though a Prince treated every Envoy with equal respect to an Embassadour , no more ought any Pastors of the Church be received , but according to that power and authority which their Credentials , viz. the Scriptures do convey to them . We own therefore the Apostles as Gods immediate Embassadours , whose miracles did attest their commission from Heaven to all they came to ; and no persons could pretend ignorance , that this is Gods hand and Seal ; but all other Pastors of the Church we look on only as Agents settled to hold correspondency between God and Vs , but no extraordinary Embassadours , who must be looked on as immediately transacting by the Infallible Commission of Heaven . When therefore the Pastor or Pastors of your Church shall bring new Credentials from Heaven , attested with the same Broad-seal of Heaven , which the Apostles had , viz. Miracles , we shall then receive them in the same capacity as Apostles , viz. acting by an Infallible Commission , but not till then . By which I have given a sufficient Answer to what follows , concerning the credit which is given to Christ's Legats as to himself ; for hereby it appears they are to have no greater authority than their Commission gives them . Produce therefore an Infallible Commission for your Pastors Infallibility , either apart , or conjunctly , and we shall receive it ; but not else . Whether A.C. in the words following , doth in terms attribute Divine and Infallible authority to the Church , supposing it infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost , is very little material ; for , Whether he owns it or no , it is sufficient that it necessarily follows from his Doctrine of Infallibility . For , How can the Church be infallible by virtue of those Promises , wherein Divine Infallibility , you say , is promised , and by virtue of which the Apostles had Divine Infallibility , and yet the Church not to be divinely Infallible ? The remainder of this Chapter , which concerns the sense of the Fathers in this Controversie , will particularly be considered in the next , which is purposely designed for it . CHAP. IX . The Sense of the Fathers in this Controversie . The Judgement of Antiquity enquired into , especially of the three first Centuries ; and the reasons for it . The several Testimonies of Justin Martyr , Athenagoras , Tatianus , Irenaeus , Clemens Alexandrinus , and all the Fathers who writ in vindication of Christian Religion , manifested to concurr fully with our way of resolving Faith. C's . Answers to Vincentius Lyrinensis , à Gandavo , and the Fathers produced by his Lordship , pitifully weak . The particulars of his 9th . Chapter examined . S. Augustine's Testimony vindicated . C's . nauseous Repetitions sent as Vagrants to their several homes . His Lordships Considerations found too heavy for C's . Answers . In what sense the Scripture may be called a Praecognitum . What way the Jews resolved their Faith. This Controversie , and the first Part , concluded . HAving thus largely considered , whatever you could pretend to , for the advantage of your own cause , or the prejudice of ours , from Reason and Scripture ; nothing can be supposed to remain considerable , but the judgement of the Primitive Church in this present Controversie . And next to Scripture and Reason , I attribute so much to the sense of the Christian Church in the ages next succeeding the Apostles , that it is no mean confirmation to me of the truth of the Protestant Way of resolving Faith , and of the falsity of yours , that I see the one so exactly concurring , and the other so apparently contrary to the unanimous Consent of Antiquity . For , though you love to make a great noise with Antiquity , among persons meanly conversant in it ; yet those who do seriously and impartially enquire into the sense of the Primitive Church , and not guess at it by the shreds of Citations to your hands in your own writers ( which is generally your way ) will scarce in any thing more palpably discern your jugling and impostures then in your pretence to Antiquity . I shall not here enquire into the corruptions crept into your Church under that disguise , but , as occasion is ministred to me , in the following discourse , shall endeavour to pluck it off , but shall keep close to the matter in question . Three things then I design in this Chapter . 1. To shew the concurrence of Antiquity with us in the resolution of Faith. 2. Examine what you produce from thence , either to assert your own way , or enervate ours . 3. Consider what remains of this Controversie in your Book . 1. For the manifesting the concurrence of Antiquity with us ; I shall confine my present discourse to the most pure and genuine Antiquity , keeping within the compass of the three first Centuries , or at least , of those who have purposely writ in vindication of the Christian Faith. Not that I do in the least distrust the consent of the succeeding Writers of the Primitive Church , but upon these Reasons . 1. Because it would be too large a task at present to undertake , since no necessity from what you object , but only my desire to clear the Truth , and rectifie the mistakes of such , who are led blindfold under the pretence of Antiquity , hath led me to this discourse . 2. Because in reason they could not but understand best the waies and methods used by the Apostles for the perswading men to the Christian Faith ; and if they had mentioned any such thing as an Infallibility alwaies to continue in the Charch , those Pastors certainly who received the care of the Church from the Apostles hands , could not but have heard of it : And were strangely to blame if they did not discover and make use of it . Whatever therefore of truly Apostolical Tradition , is to be relyed on in such cases , must be conveyed to us from those persons who were the Apostles immediate Successors ; and if it can be made manifest that they heard not of any such thing , in that , when occasion was offered , they are so far from mentioning it , that they take such different waies of satisfying men , which do manifestly suppose that they did not believe it . I know some of the greatest Patrons of the Church of Rome , and such who know best how to manage things with best advantage for the interest of that Church , have made little account of the three first ages , and confined themselves within the compass of the four first Councils , upon this pretence , because the Books and Writers are so rare before , and that those persons who lived then , had no occasion to write of the matters in Controversie between them and us . But if the ground why those other things which are not determined in Scripture , are to be believed by us , and practised as necessary , be , that they were Apostolical Traditions , Who can be more competent Judges what was so , and what not , then those who lived nearest the Apostolical times ? and those certainly ( if they writ of any thing ) could not write of any thing of more concernment to the Christian world , than the knowledge of such things would be ; or at least we cannot imagine but that we should find express intimations of them , where so many , so wise , and learned persons do industriously give an account of themselves , and their solemn actions to their Heathen persecutors . But however silent they may be in other things , which they neither heard , nor thought of , as in the Customs controverted between the Papists and us ( which , no doubt , is the true reason why the three first ages are declined by Cardinal Perrone ) yet there is not the least shadow of pretence , why they should be silent in this present Controversie , since the great business of their writings was to vindicate the Christian Faith , to perswade the Heathens to believe it , and to manifest the grounds on which they were induced to believe themselves . If therefore in this they do unanimously concurr with that resolution of Faith I have already laid down , nothing can be desired more for the evidence and confirmation of the truth of our way , than that it is not only most consonant to Scripture , but built on the truest Reason , and was the very same which the Primitive Christians used when they gave an account of their Faith : Which I shall do , not by some mangled citations , but deducing it from the scope and design of their writings , and drawing it successively down from the first after the Apostles , who appeared in Vindication of the Christian Faith. I begin with Justin Martyr , who , as Photius saith of him , was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not far from the Apostles either in time or virtue ; and who being a professed Philosopher before he became a Christian , we may in reason think , that he was more inquisitive into the grounds of Christian Faith , before he believed , and the more able to give an account of them , when he did . Whether therefore we consider those arguments which first induced him to believe , or those whereby he endeavours to perswade others to it , we shall find how consonant and agreeable he is to our grounds of Faith , how far from any imagination of the Churches Infallibility . In the beginning of his excellent Dialogue with Trypho , where ( if I may conjecture ) he represents the manner of his conversion in a Platonical way , introducing a solemn conference between himself , and an ancient person of great gravity , and a venerable aspect in a solitary place , whither he was retired for his meditations . Pet. Halloix is much troubled who this person should be , Whether an Angel in humane shape , or a man immediately conveyed by an Angel to discover Christianity to him , which , when he had done , he was as suddenly carried back again . Scultetus ( I suppose from this story ) asserts Justin Martyr to be converted by Divine Revelation . But , if I be not much mistaken , this whole Conference is no more than the setting forth the grounds of his becoming a Christian in the Platonical mode , by way of Dialogue ( and probably the whole Disputation with Trypho , may be nothing else ) but , however that be , it is apparent Trypho looked on him as a Platonist , by his Pallium , and Justin Martyr owns himself to have been so , and therefore it was very congruous for him to discourse after the Academick manner . In which discourse , when Justin Martyr had stood up in vindication of the Platonick Philosophy , and the other Person endeavours to convince him of the impossibility of attaining true happiness by any Philosophy . For when Justin had said , That by Philosophy he came to the Knowledge of God ; the other person demanded , How they could know God , who had never seen him , nor heard him ? He replied , That the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , God was only intelligible by our minds , as Plato said : He again asks , Whether there were such a faculty in the minds of men , as to be able to see God without a Divine Power and Spirit assisting it ? Justin answers , that , according to Plato , the eye of the understanding was sufficient to discover that there is such a Being , which is the cause of all things , but the nature of it is ineffable and incomprehensible . Upon which he proceeds to enquire , What relation there was between God and the Souls of men , and what means to come to the participation of him ; after a great deal of discourse on which subject between them , Justin comes at last to enquire , if there were no truth and certainty in Philosophy ? By whose instruction , or by what means he should come to it ? To which that person returns this excellent Answer , That there had been , a long time since , several persons much elder than the reputed Philosophers , blessed men , just , and lovers of God , speaking by the inspiration of the Divine Spirit , foretelling things which have come to pass since , whom they call Prophets . These only saw the Truth , and declared it to men ; neither flattering , nor fearing any , nor conquered with the love of honour : But they only spake the things which they heard and saw , being filled with the Holy Spirit . Whose Books are still extant ; which , whosoever reads , and assents to , will find himself much improved in the principles and ends of things , and whatever becomes a Philosopher to know . For , they write not by way of argument or demonstration , but , that which is above it , they are most faithful witnesses of Truth . For the things which have , and do come to pass , do enforce men to believe the Truth of what they spake : And not only so , but they are most worthy to be believed , for the Miracles which they wrought . Moreover , they extol the Maker of the World , God and the Father , and declare to the World his Son Christ : which the false Prophets , who are acted by a seducing and impure spirit , neither have done , nor yet do do ; but they attempt to shew some tricks for the amazement of men , and cry up the evil and deceiving spirits . But , do thou , above all things , pray , that the gates of light may be opened to thee . For these things are not seen nor understood by all , but only by them to whom God and Christ , shall grant the knowledge of them . A most signal and remarkable Testimony ( as any is extant in all Antiquity ) for acquainting us with the true grounds and reasons of Faith , which therefore I have at large produced . The very reading of which is sufficient to tell us , How true a Protestant this , whether Angel or Man was . When Justin asked him , What Teachers he should have to lead him to Truth ; He tells him , There had been long before Philosophers , excellent persons in the world , called Prophets , men every way good , who did nothing for fear or favour , or love of themselves . But Justin might further ask , How he should come to be instructed by them ? He tells him , Their Writings were still extant , wherein were contained such things as might hugely satisfie a Philosophical mind concerning the Origine and Principles of things . He might still enquire , Whether those things were demonstrated or no , in them ? No , he replies ; but they deserve assent as much , if not beyond any demonstration ; because they manifest themselves to be from God , by two things , the exact accomplishment of the Prophecies made by them , and the unparalleld Miracles which were wrought by them . But , might not the evil spirits work such things ? No : For , although their false Prophets●ay ●ay do several things to amaze men , yet they can do no such Miracles as 〈◊〉 did ; besides , all which they do , tends to advance these evil spirits in the world ; but the design of the true Prophets , is to declare the True God , and his Son Christ. But , May then any one , by the innate power of his mind , yield a divine assent to these things ? No : but , pray earnestly to God to enlighten your mind ; for this is the effect of Divine Grace , in and through Christ. What part is there now of our resolution of Faith , which is not herein asserted ? If you ask , Why you believe there were such men in the World as these Prophets ? The continuance of their Books and common Fame sufficiently attest it . If you ask , Why you should believe them to be True Prophets ? The excellency of their Doctrine , joyned with the fulfilling Prophecies , and working Miracles , abundantly prove it . But if you lastly ask , Whether , besides objective evidence , there be not some higher efficient requisite to produce a Divine Faith ; The Answer is , That depends upon the Grace of God in Christ : So that here we have most evidently all those things concurring , which his Lordship asserts in the resolution of Faith ; Moral inducement preparing the mind , rational evidence from the thing into which Faith is resolved , and Divine Grace requisite in the nature of an efficient cause . But , Where is there the least intimation of any Churches Infallibility requisite to make men believe with a firm and Divine Faith ? No doubt that was a Divine Faith , which Justin was bid to pray so heartily for , and which was only in those to whom it was given ; and yet even this Faith had no other assurance to build it self upon , but that rational evidence which is before discovered . That Divine Person never thought of mens believing with their Wills , much less that the Books of Scripture had no more evidence of themselves , than distinction of colours to a blind man ; he did not think Christ an Ignoramus or Impostor , because he left no Church infallible , nor that God by the Prophets laid a Foundation upon sand , or that would last but a few years , because he did not continue such an Infallible Assistance as the Prophets had to the Church in all ages ; yet these are all brave assertions of yours ; which , doubtless , you would be ashamed of , and recant , if you had not , as Casaubon saith of the Person whom you could not tell whether he was a Jesuit or no ( but by that character you might guess it ) that he had frontem ferream , & cor involutum ; a brow of steel , and a heartfull of Meanders ( to use your own fine expression . ) Upon this , Justin tells us , a divine ardour was raised in his mind , and a love of the Prophets and such as were the Friends of Christ , and , upon further consideration , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I found this the only certain and profitable Philosophy ; and thereupon commends the Doctrine of Christ to Trypho and his Company for something which was certainly innate to it , that it had a kind of awe and majesty in it , and is excellent at terrifying and perswading those who were out of the right way , and brings the sweetest tranquillity to such as are conversant in it . And afterwards undertakes to demonstrate the truth of our Religion from the reasonableness of it , that we have not yielded our assent to vain and empty Fables , nor to assertions uncapable of evidence and demonstration ; but to such as are filled with a Divine Spirit , overflowing with Power , and flourishing with Grace . And accordingly manageth his discourse quite through , shewing the insufficiency of the Ceremonial Law , and the Truth and Excellency both of the Person and Doctrine of Christ. But what need all this , if he had believed your Doctrine ? It had been but proving the Church Infallible by Motives of Credibility ; and then , to be sure , whatever was propounded to be believed by it , was infallibly true . But older and wiser , it seems , must hold here to ; Justin , though so near the Apostles times , went a much further way about : but it was well for him he lived so long ago , else he might have been accused of Heresie , or making Faith uncertain , if he had lived in our times , and such Doctrine of his might have merited an Index Expurgatorius . But , it seems , he was not afraid of it then , for he often elsewhere speaks to the same purpose . For , in his Paraenesis to the Greeks , he makes it his business , first to shew the unreasonableness of believing those who were the great Authours of all their superstitions ; for the Poets were manifestly ridiculous , the Philosophers at continual dissentions among themselves , so that there was no relying on them for the finding out of Truth , or the redress of the miseries of humane nature ; and then comes to the Authours of our Religion , who were both much elder than any of theirs , and did not teach any thing of their own heads , nor dissented from one another in what they delivered , or sought to confute each other as the Philosophers did , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , without all jarring and contention , they delivered to men the Doctrine which they received from God. For , ( saith he ) it was not possible for them to know such great and divine things by nature , or humane wit , but by a heavenly gift descending from above upon holy men . It seems , Justin believed there was such evidence in the matters contained in Scripture , which might perswade men to believe that they came from God ; that they were but as instruments to that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as he expresseth it ) to that Divine Spirit which did strike upon them ; whence , with one consent and harmony they sound forth the Doctrine of God , the worlds Creation and Mans , the Immortality of the soul , Judgment to come , and all things else which are necessary for us to know , which they unanimously deliver to us , though at great distances from each other , both in regard of time and place . And so proves the Antiquity of the Writings of Moses above all the Wise men of the Greeks , by the testimony of their own Authours , Polemon , Appion , Ptolomaeus Mendesius , and many others , and concludes his discourse with this speech , That it is impossible for us to know any thing certainly concerning God or Religion , but from Divine Inspiration , which alone was in the Prophets . In his first Apology for the Christians , he tells us what it was , while he was a Platonist , which brought him to a good Opinion of Christianity , which was , the observing the power and efficacy that Doctrine had upon the Christians to undergo with so much courage what was accounted most terrible to humane nature ( which are , death and torments . ) From whence he reasoned with himself , that although the Christians were so much calumniated , yet certainly they could not be vitious persons , who were so little fearful of those great Bug-bears of humane nature . For , Who is there , that is a lover of pleasure , or intemperate , or cruel , that can chearfully embrace death , so as thereby to be deprived of all his goods ? And when he speaks of the Doctrine it self of Christianity , he saies , It is suitable to whatever was rational among the Platonists or other Philosophers , but far more agreeable to it self , and containing much more excellent things than ever they could attain to the knowledge of . In his second Apology for the Christians to the Emperour Antoninus Pius , he insists much on the excellency of the Do●trine of Christianity from the Precepts of it , chastity , love of enemies , liberality ▪ submission to authority , worship of God , &c. Afterwards he proves the truth and certainty of all we believe concerning Christ from the exact accomplishment of the Prophecies made concerning him in the Old Testament , which discourse he ends with this saying . So many and so great things being seen , are sufficient to perswade men to believe the truth of them , who are lovers of truth , and not seekers of applause , and under the command of passions . Thus we see , in all his discourses , where he had the most occasion administred to him , to discover the most certain grounds of Christian Faith , he resolves all into the rational evidence of the truth , excellency , and divinity of the Doctrine which was contained in the Scriptures . For in his second Oration to the Greeks , after he had spoken highly in commendation of the Scripture , calling it , The best expeller of all turbulent passions , and the surest extinguisher of those preternatural heats in the souls of men ; which ( saith he ) makes men not Poets , nor Philosophers , nor Orators , but it makes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , dying men immortal , and mortals become gods ; and transferrs them from the earth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to such places whose confines are far above Olympus ; therefore , O ye Greeks , come and be instructed ; be ye as I am , for I was as you are . And these were the things which prevailed with me , the divine power and efficacy of the Doctrine . What was it then , I pray , that Justin Martyr , of a Philosopher becoming a Christian , resolved his Faith into ? If we may believe himself , it was into the evidence of the Doctrine of Christianity , and not into the Infallibility of any Church . The Testimony of this person , I have the more largely insisted on , both because he was so great a Philosopher , as well as Christian , and lived so near the Apostolical times . Next him we produce Athenagoras as a Philosopher too , as well as Christian , who flourished under Antoninus and Commodus , to whom he made his Apology in behalf of the Christians , in which he first undertakes to manifest the reasonableness of the Doctrine which they owned , the Foundation of it being the same with that which the best Philosophers acknowledged , the existence and unity of the Deity . But ( saith he ) if we had nothing but such reasons as he had produced , our perswasion could only be humane ; but the words of the Prophets are they which establish our minds . — who being carried beyond themselves , by the impulse of the Divine Spirit , spake that which they were moved to , when the Spirit used them as Instruments through which he spake . Is not here a plain resolution of Faith into that Divine Authority by which the Prophets spake ? and that not as testified by any Infallible Church , but as it was discernable by those persons he spake to , for he appeals to the Emperours themselves concerning it ; which had been a fond and absurd thing for him to do , if the knowledge of that Divine Inspiration did depend meerly on the testimony of Christians as such , and were not to be discovered by some common Principles to them and others . Much to the same purpose Tatianus speaks in that eloquent Oration of his against the Greeks , who was Justin Martyrs Scholar ; and we shall see , how agreeably he speaks to him , in the account he gives , how he became a Christian. After ( saith he ) he had abundantly discovered the vanity of the Theology , and Superstitions of the Greeks , he fell to the reading some strange Books , much elder and more Divine than the Writings of the Greek Philosophers . And to these ( saith he ) I yielded up my Faith , for the great simplicity and plainness of the style , and the freedom from affectation which was in the writers ; and that evidence and perspicuity which was in all they writ ; and because they foretold things to come , made excellent promises , and manifestly declared the Monarchy of the World. What Protestant could speak higher of the Scripture , and of those internal arguments which are the grounds of Faith than Tatianus in these words doth ? Yet we see , these were the arguments which made him relinquish the Greek learning of which he was a Professor at Rome , and betake himself to the profession of Christianity ; though he was sure to undergo not only contempt from the world , but to be in continual hazard of his life by it . That innate simplicity of the writings of the Scripture joyned with the perspicuity of it ( if at least those words be rightly translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by sermo nusquam obscurus , and it doth not rather relate to the account of the worlds creation , which I conjecture it may do ) but however , the certainty of the predictions , the excellency of the promises , and the reasonableness of the Doctrine were the things , which by the reading of the Books he was perswaded to believe them by . But all this while we hear no news of any Churches Infallibility in order to Faith. We come therefore to Irenaeus , who was omnium doctrinarum curio●●ssimus explorator as Tertullian speaks of him , a great searcher into all kind of learning , and therefore surely not to seek as to the true account of his Faith. Whose judgement herein , although we have had occasion to enquire into before , yet we have testimonies enough beside to manifest his consent with them . And although Irenaeus of all the ancient Fathers be looked on as the most favourable to Tradition , and is most cited to that purpose in these disputes ; yet I doubt not but to make it appear , that where he speaks most concerning Tradition , he makes the resolution of Faith to be wholly and entirely into the Scripture : and they who apprehend otherwise do either take the citations out of him upon trust , or else only search him for the words of those citations , and never take the pains to enquire into the scope and design of his discourse . For clearing which , we must consider , what the subject was which he writ of , what the plea's of the adverse party were , what way Irenaeus takes to confute them , and to establish the Faith of Christians as to the matter which was in Controversie . The matter in dispute was this : Valentinus and his Scholars , not being contented with the simplicity of the Doctrine of the Gospel , and in probability the better to suit their opinions to the Heathen Mythology , had invented a strange Pedigree of Gods , the better as they pretended to give an account of the production of things , and the various dispensations which had been in the world : but knowing that the Christians did with the greatest resolution adhere to that Doctrine which was delivered by Christ and his Apostles , they could not suppose that they should embrace these figments unless they could some way or other father them upon them . Upon which they pretended that these very things which they delivered were really intended by Christ and the Apostles in their writings , but because so few were capable of them , they gave only some intimations of them there , but delivered these great mysteries privately only to those who were perfect ; and that this was St. Pauls meaning when he said , I speak wisdome among them that are perfect . This Irenaeus gives us an account of , in the beginning of all his discourse : but is more fully expressed in the original Greek of Irenaeus preserved by Epiphanius in the heresie of the Valentinians . On which account alone , as Petavius saith , Epiphanius hath well deserved of Posterity , for preserving entire those original Fragments of Irenaeus ; his Greek therein being much more intelligible and smooth than the old harsh Latin version of him . His words are : All which things , are not expresly declared , in as much as all are not fit to understand them ; but are mysteriously couched by our Saviour in parables , for such who are able to understand them . Thus they said , the 30. Aeônes were represented by the 30. years in which our Saviour did not appear publickly , and by the parable of the works in the vineyard in which the 1 , 3 , 6 , 9 , 11 , hours , making up 30. did again denote their Aeônes ; and that St. Paul did most expresly signifie them , when he used so often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Duodecad of Aeôns by the 12 years at which our Saviour appeared disputing with the Doctors . The raising of Jairus his daughter of 12 years , represented Achamoth being brought to light , whose passions were set forth by those words of our Saviour , My God , my God , why hast thou forsaken me , in which were three passions of Achamoth , Sorrow , Fear , and Despair . With many things of a like nature ; but hereby we sufficiently see what their pretence was , viz. That there were deep mysteries but obscurely represented in Scripture , but whose full knowledge was delivered down by an Oral Cabala from Christ and his Apostles . Now we must consider , what course Irenaeus takes to confute these pretensions of theirs . First he gives an account what that Faith was , which the Church dispersed up and down the world , received from the Apostles and their Disciples , viz. that thereby , they believed in one God , the Father Almighty , who made Heaven and Earth , the Sea and all in them , and in one Jesus Christ the Son of God , &c. which was directly contrary to the Valentinian Heresies , who supposed the Supream God and Demiurgus to be different , and so Christus and Salvator , and so in others . This Faith which the Church hath received , it unanimously keeps , though dispersed through the whole world ; for although the languages be different , yet the Tradition is the same among them ; whether they live in Germany , France , Spain , the East , Aegypt , Libya , or elsewhere . And after in the first Book he hath shewed the many different opinions of the several broods of these Hereticks ; and in the second discovered the fondness and ridiculousness of them ; in his third Book , he undertakes from Scripture to shew the falseness of them . And begins with that excellent expression before cited . For we have not known the disposition ( or oeconomy ) of our Salvation by others than by those , by whom the Gospel came to us , which they then first preached , and after by the will of God , delivered to us in writings to be the Foundation and Pillar of our Faith. Which being laid down by him at his entrance as the grand principle , on which he goes , will lead us to an easie understanding of all that follows . This therefore , he not only asserts , but proves ; for whereas some of the Adversaries pretended , that the Apostles preached before they fully understood all they were to know , he shews how false that was , because after Christs Resurrection from the grave , they were endued with the Spirit of God descending from on high upon them ; and were furnished with a perfect knowledge by which they went up and down preaching the Gospel , which all and each of them had the knowledge of . Thus Matthew in the Hebrew tongue set forth his Gospel , when Peter and Paul at Rome preached the Gospel and founded a Church ; and after their departure Mark , the Disciple and Interpreter of Peter , writ those things which were preached . Afterwards John published his Gospel at Ephesus in Asia . And all these ( saith he ) delivered to us one God maker of Heaven and Earth , and one Christ his Son. To whom if one doth not assent , he despiseth those who were our Lords companions , and therefore despiseth our Lord Christ , and likewise despiseth the Father , and is condemned of himself , resisting and opposing his own salvation which all Hereticks do . Can any thing be more plain , than that Irenaeus makes it his design to resolve Faith into the writings of Christ and his Apostles , and saith , That these writings were delivered as a Foundation of Faith , that the reason why the Christians believed but one God and one Christ , was , because they read of no more in the Gospels published by them , That he that despiseth them who were our Lords companions , despise himself and God , and condemn themselves . He doth not say , he that despiseth the lawfully sent Pastours of the Church meeting in General Councils , nor them who have power to oblige the Church to believe as well as the Apostles had , as you say , but evidently makes the obligation to believe , to depend upon that revelation of Gods will , which was made by the Apostles , and is by their writings conveyed down to us . Would not the Valentinians have thought themselves presently run down by such wayes of confutation as yours are , that they must believe the present Church infallible in whatever is delivered to be believed to the world ? But doth not Irenaeus himself make use of the Churches Tradition as the great argument to confute them by ? I grant he doth so , and it is on that very account that he might confute them , and not lay down the only sure Foundation of Christian Faith. For he gives that reason of his doing so in the beginning of the very next Chapter . For , ( saith he ) when we dispute against them out of the Scripture , they are turned presently to an accusing of the Scriptures as though they were not in all things right , and wanted Authority , and because of their ambiguity , and for that truth cannot be found out by them without the help of Tradition . I need not say , that Irenaeus prophesied of you in this saying of his , but it is as true of you as if he had . Your pretences being the very same , against the Scriptures being the rule of Faith , with those of the Valentinians ; only that you deny not the truth of what is therein contained , for otherwise the want of Authority in themselves , the ambiguity of them , the impossibility of knowing the sense of them without Tradition , are the very same arguments which with the greatest pomp and ostentation are produced by you against the Scriptures , being the Rule whereby to judge of Controversies . Which we have no more cause to wonder at , than Irenaeus had in the Valentinians , because from them we produce our greatest arguments against your fond opinions . Now when the Valentinians pretended their great rule was on oral Tradition , which was conveyed from the Apostles down to them ; to this Irenaeus opposeth the constant Tradition of the Apostolical Churches , which in a continued succession was preserved from the Apostles times , which was the same every where among all the Churches , which every one who desired it , might easily be satisfied about ; because they could number them , who by the Apostles were appointed Bishops in Churches , and their successors , unto our own times , who taught no such thing , nor ever knew any such thing as they madly fancy to themselves . We see then his appeal to Tradition was only in a matter of fact , Whether ever any such thing as their opinion which was not contained in Scripture , was delivered to them by the Apostles or no , i. e. Whether the Apostles left any oral Traditions in the Churches which should be the rule to interpret Scriptures by , or no ? And the whole design of Irenaeus is to prove the contrary , by an appeal to all the Apostolical Churches , and particularly by appealing to the Roman Church , because of its due fame and celebrity in that Age wherein Irenaeus lived . So that Irenaeus appealed to the then Roman Church , even when he speaks highest in the honour of it , for somewhat which is fundamentally contrary to the pretensions of the now Roman Church . He then appealed to it , for an evidence against such oral Traditions which were pretended to be left by the Apostles as a rule to understand Scripture by ; and , were it not for this same pretence now , what will become of the Authority of the present Roman Church . After he hath thus manifested by recourse to the Apostolical Churches that there was no such Tradition left among them , it was very reasonable to inferr that there was none such at all ; for they could not imagine , if the Apostles had designed any such Tradition , but they would have communicated it to those famous Churches which were planted by them , and it was absurd to suppose that those Churches who could so easily derive their succession from the Apostles should in so short a time have lost the memory of so rich a treasure deposited with them , as that was pretended to be ; from whence he sufficiently refutes that unreasonable imagination of the Valentinians . Which having done , he proceeds to settle those firm grounds on which the Christians believed in one God the Father , and in one Lord Jesus Christ , which he doth by removing the only Objection which the Adversaries had against them . For when the Christians declared , the main reason into which they resolved their Faith as to these principles , was , Because no other God or Christ were revealed in Scripture , but them whom they believed , the Valentinians answered , this could not be a sufficient foundation for their Faith on this account , because many things were delivered in Scripture , not according to the truth of the things , but the judgment and opinion of the persons they were spoken to . This therefore being such a pretence as would destroy any firm resolution of Faith into Scripture , and must necessarily place it in Tradition ; Irenaeus concerns himself much to demonstrate the contrary , by an ostension ( as he calls it ) that Christ and the Apostles did all along speak according to truth , and not according to the opinion of their auditours , which is the entire subject of the fifth Chapter of his third Book . Which he proves first of Christ , because he was Truth it self , and it would be very contrary to his nature to speak of things , otherwise then they were , when the very design of his coming was to direct men in the way of Truth . The Apostles were persons who professed to declare truth to the world , and as light cannot communicate with darkness , so neither could truth be blended with so much falshood as that opinion supposeth in them . And therefore neither our Lord nor his Apostles could be supposed to mean any other God or Christ then whom they declared . For this ( saith he ) were rather to increase their ignorance and confirm them in it , then to cure them of it ; and therefore that Law was true which pronounced a curse on every one who led a blind man out of his way . And the Apostles being sent for the recovery of the lost sight of the blind , cannot be supposed to speak to men according to their present opinion , but according to the manifestation of truth . For , what Physitian intending to cure a Patient , will do according to his Patients desire , and not rather what will be best for him ? From whence he concludes , Since the design of Christ and his Apostles was not to flatter but to cure mens souls ; it follows , that they did not speak to them , according to their former opinion , but according to truth without all hypocrisie and dissimulation . From whence it follows , that if Christ and his Apostles did speak according to truth , there is then need of no Oral Tradition for our understanding Scripture , and consequently the resolution of our Faith as to God and Christ , and proportionably as to other objects to be believed , is not into any Tradition pretending to be derived from the Apostles , but into the Scriptures themselves ; which by this discourse evidently appears to have been the judgement of Irenaeus . The next which follows , is Clemens of Alexandria who flourished A. D. 196. whom St. Hierome accounted the most learned of all the writers of the Church : and therefore cannot be supposed ignorant in so necessary a part of the Christian Doctrine as the Resolution of Faith is . And if his judgement may be taken , the Scriptures are the only certain Foundation of Faith ; for in his Admonition to the Gentiles after he hath with a great deal of excellent learning derided the Heathen Superstitions , when he comes to give an account of the Christians Faith , he begins it with this pregnant Testimony to our purpose . For ( saith he ) the Sacred Oracles affording us the most manifest grounds of Divine worship , are the Foundation of Truth ▪ And so goes on in a high commendation of the Scripture , as the most compendious directions for happiness , the best Institutions for government of life , the most free from all vain ornaments , that they raise mens souls up out of wickedness , yielding the most excellent remedies , disswading from the greatest deceit , and most clearly incouraging to a foreseen happiness ; with more of the same nature . And when after he perswades men with so much Rhetorick and earnestness to imbrace the Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the greatest readiness , he gives this as the reason of it , that so they might 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 entertain God in chaste souls . For the Word is that light to men , by which we see God : and soon after speaking that the design of Religion is to make men like to God as much as possible , he adds , That truly they are the Sacred Scriptures which make men Holy and Deifie men , i. e. by Assimilation . And in that large and eloquent Paraenesis which follows , wherein he perswades men to the forsaking their old customs and embracing Christianity , all the arguments he useth are drawn from the Scriptures , and not so much as the least mention of any Infallible Ensurancer of their truth and authority , but supposeth the evidence he produceth , sufficient to perswade them to the belief and love of them . In the first of his Stromata , he proves the truth of the Scriptures by the much greater antiquity of them then any of the Greek learning . In the second , where he particularly enquires into the nature and grounds of Faith , he hath this expression , He therefore that believes the Sacred Scriptures , having a firm judgement doth receive the voyce of God who gave the Scriptures , as an impregnable demonstration . ( Although the text be commonly printed without the comma between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , yet the sense and context makes it evident that it ought to be there , and accordingly Sylburgius gives intimation of it in his notes , and Gentian Hervet in the translation as revised by Heinsius applies the demonstration to what follows , but very weakly joynes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so renders it firmum habens judicium cui contradici nequit , whereas it is plain that there he intends to give an account what that foundation is , ●hich Faith doth stand on . ) And after having made a large discourse concerning the nature of Faith comparing the judgement of Philosophers concerning it , he concludes with this saying , That it is an absurd thing for the followers of Pythagoras to suppose that his ipse dixit was instead of a demonstration to them ; and yet those who are the lovers of truth not to believe the sure testimony of our only Saviour and God , but to exact proofs of him of what he spake . Wherein he discovers that Christianity requires from men no unreasonable thing in expecting assent where no such kind of proofs as those used by Philosophers are ; but if the Epicureans did suppose some kind of anticipation necessary to knowledge , if the Pythagoreans relyed on Authority , if Heraclitus quarrell'd with such as could neither hear nor speak , i. e. such as neither had Authority themselves , and yet would rely on none ; it could not be judged any absurd thing that Christianity did require such an assent to what Christ delivered , especially considering that he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. that he discovered sufficient reason why he was to be believed in whatever he spake . And thence elsewhere he sayes , That Faith is a sure demonstration , because truth follows whatever is delivered from God. And when he gives an account what that true knowledge is which the Christian hath , he shews what things are requisite to it ; two things Knowledge supposeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , enquiry and discovery ; the Enquiry ( saith he ) is an impulse of the mind for the finding out of something by some signs which are proper to it ; Discovery , is the end and rest of enquiry , which lyes in the comprehension of the thing , which is properly Knowledge . Now the signs by which things are discovered , are either precedent , concomitant , or subsequent . All these he thus applyes to the Scriptures . The discovery , as the end of our enquiry after God , is , the Doctrine delivered by his Son ; but the signs whereby we know that he was the Son of God , precedent , are the Prophesies declaring his coming ; concomitant , were the Testimonies concerning his birth ; subsequent , are those Miracles , which were published , and manifestly shewed to the world after his Ascension . Therefore the peculiar evidence that the truth is with us , is , that the Son of God himself hath taught us . A place not so clear in it self , as miserably involved through the oscitancy of the Latin Interpreter , in which it is plain , that Clemens doth exactly , according to all rational principles of knowledge , give an account of the grounds of Christian Faith ; the main principle of which , is , the doctrine delivered by Christ ; which , that it ought to be assented to , appears by a full concurrence of all those signs which are necessary in enquiries ; here are the greatest precedent signs ( Prophesies , made so long before , exactly accomplished in him ) the fullest concomitant signs ( in the many wonderful things which happened at his coming into the world ) and the clearest subsequent signs by those great and uncontrouled miracles , which were wrought in the world after his Ascension ; all which put together do evidently prove that he was the Son of God who delivered this doctrine to us , and therefore deserves our most firm assent in what ever appears to be his Word . Can any thing then be more apparent then his resolution of Faith into the rational evidence of Christs being the Son of God , which is manifested to us not by the Infallible testimony of any Church , but by the Infallibl●●●gns of it which were precedent to , attendant on , and consequent to his appearance in the world . If therefore ( saith he ) according to Plato , truth can only be learned , either from God , or those who are come from him , we may justly boast that we learn the truth from the Son of God , taking the Testimonies out of those Sacred Oracles , which were first Prophesied and then fully declared , viz. by accomplishment . The main ground of Faith then , is such as the wisest Philosophers did admit of , viz. that whatsoever God said is true , and none can deliver truth but such as come from him , on which account there is nothing left , but evidence that he in whom we believe was the Son of God , which is abundantly manifested by the accomplishment of those Prophesies in him which were made so long before . After which he disputes against the same sort of Hereticks which Irenaeus did , and upon the same principles , viz. that whatever God or Christ thought necessary for us to know or believe , is consigned to us in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles ; and thence he cites that out of Peters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( a Book I suppose then extant under that name ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nothing without the written word , where was the unwritten word then ? And in the end of that Book discovers the weakness of Philosophy , because it came from meer men : but men , as men , are no sufficient teachers when they speak concerning God. For ( saith he ) man cannot speak 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 things becoming God ; for being weak and mortal he cannot speak as he ought of a Being infinite and immortal , nor he that is the work of him who made it ; besides he that cannot speak truth concerning Himself ▪ how much less is he to be believed concerning God ? For as much as man wants of Divine power , so much must his speech fall short of God , when he discourseth of him . For mans speech is naturally weak and unable to express God ; not only as to his essence , but as to his power and works ; thence he concludes a necessity that God by his Spirit must discover himself to men , which revelation he proves to be only extant among Christians , because of the many Divine testimonies that Christ was the Son of God , because the knowledge that came by him was so remarkably dispersed abroad in the world , and did prevail , notwithstanding all opposition and persecution . For ( saith he ) the Greek Philosophy if any ordinary Magistrate forbid it did presently sink ; but our doctrine hath been forbid from its first publishing , by the Kings and Potentates of the earth , who have used their utmost industry to destroy both us and that together , but still it flourisheth , and the more for its being persecuted ; for it dyes not like a humane doctrine , nor perisheth like a weak gift . Thus we see that he insists on rational evidence as the great and sufficient testimony into which our Faith is resolved as to the being of a Divine Revelation . In his next Book he answers some objections of the Heathens against believing Christianity , of which the chiefest was , the dissension among the Christians , wherein ( if ever ) he had an opportunity to declare what the certain rule of Faith is , and what power God hath left his Church for determining matters to be believed by us . But for want of understanding this necessary foundation of Faith , viz. the Churches infallibility , he is fain to answer this objection just as a Protestant would do . 1. If this were an argument against truth , the objectors had none themselves , for both Jews and Greeks had heresies among them . 2. The very coming of heresies was an argument of the truth of Scripture , because that had expresly foretold them . 3. This argument doth not hold any where else , therefore it should not in reason here , viz. where there is any dissent there can be no certainty ; for though Physitians differ much from one another , yet Patients are not thereby discouraged from seeking to them for cure . 4. This should only make men use more care and diligence in the search and enquiry after truth ; for they will find abundant recompence for their search in the pleasure of finding truth . Would any one say , because two apples are offered to him , the one a real fruit , the other made of wax , that therefore he will meddle with neither ; but rather that he ought to use more care to distinguish the one from the other ? If there be but one high way and many by-paths which lead to precipices , rivers , or the Sea , Will he not go in the highway because there are such false ones ? but rather go in it with the more care , and get the exactest knowledge of it he can . Doth a Gardener cast off the care of his Garden because weeds grow up with his herbs ? or rather , doth he not use the more diligence to distinguish one from the other ? So ought we to do in discerning truth . 5. That all those who seriously enquire after truth may receive satisfaction . For either mans mind is capable of evidence , or it is not ; if not , it is to no purpose to trouble ourselves with any thing of knowledge at all ; if it be , then we must descend to particular questions , by which we may demonstratively learn from the Scriptures how the heresies fell off from them : and that the most exact knowledge is preserved in truth alone , and the ancient Church . If then Heresies must be demonstratively confuted out of Scriptures , what then doth he make to be the rule to judge of Controversies , but only them ? For what he speaks of the ancient Church , he speaks of it as in conjunction with truth and in opposition to those novel Heresies of the Basilidians and Valentinians . For , that he doth not at all appeal to the judgement of any Church much less the present , as having any infallibility whereon men ought to rely in matters of Faith , appears likewise by his following words . But those ( saith he ) who are willing to imploy themselves in the most excellent things , will never give over the search of truth , till they have received a demonstration of it from the Scriptures themselves . Here we see , the last resolution of Assent , is into the Scriptures themselves , without any the least mention or intimation of any Infallibility in the Church , either to deliver , or interpret those Scriptures to us : And after , gives the true account of Heresies , viz. mens not adhering to the Scriptures . For ( saith he ) they must necessarily be deceived in the greatest things who undertake them , unless they hold fast the Rule of Truth , which they received from Truth it self . And in this following discourse he goes as high as any Protestants whatever ( even such who suppose the Scripture to be principium indemonstrabile , by any thing but it self ) for he makes the Doctrine delivered by Christ , to be the Principle of our Faith , and we make use of it ( saith he ) to be our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to find out other things by . But , whatever is judged , is not believed till it be judged , therefore that can be no Principle which stands in need of being judged . Justly therefore when we have by Faith received that indemonstrable Principle , and from the Principle it self used demonstrations concerning it self , we are by the voice of our Lord instructed in the knowledge of Truth . Nothing can be more plain in what he saith , than that , if there were a higher 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 than Scripture ( as there must be , if we are to receive it on the account of the Churches Infallible Testimony ) the Scripture could not be call'd the Principle of our Faith , but when we receive the Scripture , the evidence we have that it is our Principle must be fetched from it self ; and therefore he does here in terms ( as express as may be ) resolve the belief of Scripture into internal arguments , and makes it as much a Principle supposed as ever his Lordship doth . And immediately after , when he proposeth that very Question , How this should be proved to others , We expect not ( saith he ) any proof from men , but we prove the thing sought for by the Word of God , which is more worthy belief than any demonstration , or rather which is the only demonstration , by the knowledge of which , those who have tasted of the Scripture alone become believers . Can any one who reads these words ever imagine , that this man speaks like one , that said , That the Scriptures of themselves appear no more to be Gods Word , than distinction of colours to a blind man ? How much beyond the Valentinians , and Basilidians would Clemens have accounted so great a madness ? who so plainly asserts the Scriptures to be proved by themselves , and that not casually , or in the heat of argument ; But lest we should not throughly apprehend his meaning repeats it again in the same page , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perfectly demonstrating the Scriptures by themselves . And are not all these Testimonies of such persons so near the Apostolical times , sufficient to acquaint us what the grounds of the Resolution of Faith were in the Christian Church ? when all of them do so unanimously fix on the Scripture , and not so much as mention the Infallible Testimonies of any Church , much less the Roman . Much more might be cited out of this excellent Authour to the same purpose , particularly where he refutes the Valentinians , who deserted the Scriptures , and pleaded Tradition : but the Testimonies already produced are so plain , that it will be to no purpose to produce any more . It were easie to continue an account of the same grounds of Faith , through the succeeding Writers of the Christian Church , who have designedly writ on that subject , in vindication of Christian Religion , which they unanimously prove to be Divine , chiefly by these Arguments ; from the undoubted Miracles which were wrought by Christ , and his Apostles , from the exact fulfilling of Prophecies , and the admirable propagation of the Christian Doctrine ; all which are particularly insisted on by Origen against Celsus ; by Tertullian , in his Apologetick , adversus Scapulam , and elsewhere ; by Minucius Felix , Arnobius , and Lactantius ; not to mention Eusebius in his Books of preparation and Cyril's Answer to Julian and others . ( But , having elsewhere more fully and largely considered that subject , I rather chuse to referr the Reader to what hath been there handled already , than to tire his patience with either repeating the same , or adding more Testimonies to the same purpose . ) Only that which is most pertinent to our present purpose , I shall here add , Whether is it credible that those persons who fully understood the Doctrine of Christianity , who were themselves rational and inquisitive men , and writ for the satisfaction not only of subtle adversaries , but of doubting and staggering Christians , should so unanimously agree in insisting on the evidence of matter of fact , for the truth of the thing delivered in Scripture , and the fore-mentioned Arguments for the Divinity of the Doctrine therein delivered , had it not been the judgement of the Church they lived in , that the resolution of Faith was into those grounds on which they insisted ? And is it again credible , that any of them should believe the Testimony of the Church to be necessary as infallible , in order to a Divine Faith , and that without it , the Scriptures could not be believed as Divine , and yet in all their disputes with the Gentiles concerning the Doctrine of Christianity , and with several Hereticks ( as the Marcionists , &c. ) concerning the Books of Scripture , upon no occasion should mention this grand Palladium of Faith , viz. the Infallibility of the present Church ? And lastly , Is it credible , that when in our modern Controversies men do evidently maintain faction and interest , more than the common Principles of Christianity ( that he must be blinder than one that can see no distinction of colours , that doth not discern on what account this Infallibility is now pretended ) Is it , I say , credible ▪ that a Doctrine pretended so necessary for our believing Scriptures with Divine Faith , should be so concealed ; when it ought , for the honour and interest of Christianity to have been most divulged ? Which now only in these last and worst times is challenged by an usurping party in the Church as left by Christ himself ( when no other evidence can be given of it , but what was common to all ages of the Church ) as belonging to such a party under the pretence of the Catholick Church , which doth so apparently use it only to uphold her pretended Authority , and so makes it serve to the worst ends , and the most unworthy designs . Having thus far considered what the judgement of those Fathers was concerning the resolution of Faith , who lived nearest the Apostolical times ; I should now come to consider what you can produce out of Antiquity , for your Churches Infallibility , or more generally , for any infallible Testimony supposed in the Catholick Church ( whatever that be ) in order to a Foundation for Divine Faith : But you very prudently avoid the Testimonies of Antiquity in so necessary a subject as this is ; for , those Testimonies mentioned in the foregoing Chapter , in explication of Matth. 28.20 . takeing them , as you have in so loose and careless a manner produced them , make nothing at all for the Churches Infallible Testimonie ; but only assert that which is not denied , that there shall alwaies be a Christian Church in the world . Our only remaining task then , as to this , is , to examine in what way you seek to enervate the Testimonies produced by his Lordship out of Antiquity , which you do in the latter part of Chap. 8. His Lordship had truly said , That this method and manner of proving the Scripture to be the Word of God , which he useth , is the same which the ancient Church ever held , namely Tradition , or Ecclesiastical Authority first , and then all other arguments , but especially internal from the Scripture it self . For which he cites , first , The Church in S. Augustine 's time . He was no enemy to Church-Tradition ( saith his Lorship ) yet when he would prove that the Authour of the Scripture ( and so of the whole knowledge of Divinity , as it is supernatural ) is God in Christ , he takes this as the all-sufficient way , and gives four proofs all internal to the Scripture . 1. The Miracles . 2. That there is nothing carnal in the Doctrine . 3. That there hath been such performance of it . 4. That by such a Doctrine of Humility , the whole world almost hath been converted . And whereas ad muniendam fidem , for the defending of the Faith , and keeping it entire , there are two things requisite , Scripture and Church-Tradition ; Vincent . Lyrinens . places authority of Scriptures first , and then Tradition . And since it is apparent , that Tradition is first in order of time , it must necessarily follow ; that Scripture is first in order of nature , that is the chief upon which Faith rests and resolves it self . To this , ( after you have needlesly explained his Lordships opinion in this Controversie ) you begin to answer thus ; He cites first Vincentius Lyrinensis , l. 1. c. 1. who makes our Faith to be confirmed both by Scripture and Tradition of the Catholick Church . But , Are not you like to be trusted in citing Fathers who doubly falsifie a Testimony of your adversaries , when you may be so easily disproved ? For 1. You tell us , he cites that first , which he produceth last . 2. You cite that as produced by him for the Foundation of Faith , which he expresly cites for the preservation of the Doctrine of Faith ; so he tells you ad muniendam fidem , &c. Can any thing be more plain and obvious to any one who looks into that discourse of Vincentius , than that he makes it not his business to give an account of the general Foundations of Faith as to the Scriptures being Gods Word , but of the particular Doctrines of Faith , in opposition to the Heresies which arise in the Church . So that all that he speaks concerning Scripture , is not about the authority , but the sense and interpretation of it . If therefore I should grant you , that he speaks of Christian and Divine Faith , What is this to your purpose , unless you could prove that he speaks of that Divine Faith , whereby we believe the Scripture to be the Word of God. But yet your argument is very good to prove , that he speaks not of any humane fallible perswasion , but true Christian Divine Faith ; for he opposes it to Heresie , and calls it sound Faith , and his Faith. It seems then , whatever Faith is sound for the matter of it , is presently Christian , Divine , and Infallible ; and so , whosoever believes any thing which is materially true , in opposition to Heresies , needs never fear as long as he doth so , for according to you he hath Christian and Infallible Faith ; but , what if the Devils Faith be as sound as any Catholicks ' , Must it therefore be Divine Faith ? No ( it may be you will answer ) because he wants the formal object of Faith , and doth not believe on the account of your Churches Infallibility ; I verily believe you ; for he knows the jugglings of it too much to believe it infallible . But , take Vincentius in what sense you please , that is evident in him which his Lordship produced him for , that , for the preserving Faith entire , he places authority of Scripture first , and then Tradition ( unless you will serve his Testimony , as you do his Lordships , because it makes for your purpose , say , He mentions Tradition first , and then Scripture ) but , say you , He sayes Tradition doth as truly confirm Divine Faith , as Scripture , though Scripture doth it in a higher manner . If you did but consider , either what kind of Tradition , or what kind of Faith Vincentius insists on , you could not possibly think his words any thing to your purpose . For he speaks not of any Tradition infallibly attested to us , without which you pretend there can be no Divine Faith , but of such an Vniversal Tradition which depends wholly upon Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent , and never so much as mentions , much less pretends to any thing of Infallibility : So that if you grant such a kind of Tradition , doth as truly confirm Faith as the Scripture , , then you must grant no necessity of an Infallible Testimony to assure us of that Tradition , for Vincentius speaks of such a kind of Tradition , as hath no connexion with Infallibility . For if Vincentius had ever in the least , thought of any such thing , so great and zealous an opposer of Heresies would not have left out that which had been more to his purpose , than all that he had said , For wise men , who have throughly considered of Vincentius his way , though in general they cannot but approve of it so far as to think it highly improbable , that there should be Antiquity , Vniversality , and Consent against the true and genuine sense of Scripture , yet when they consider this way of Vincentius , with all those cautions , restrictions , and limitations set down by him ( ● . 1. c. 39. ) they are apt to think , that he hath put men to a wild-goose-chase to finde out any thing according to his Rules ; and that S. Augustine spake a great deal more to the purpose , when he spake concerning all the Writers of the Church ; That although they had never so much learning and sanctity , he did not think it true , because they thought so , but because they perswaded him to believe it true , either from the Authority of Scripture , or some probable Reason . If therefore S. Austin's Authority be not sunk so low as that of the Monk of Lerins , we have very little reason to think that Tradition can as truly confirm Faith to us as the Scriptures , supposing that to have been the meaning of Vincentius . Which yet is not reasonable to imagine , since Vincentius himself grants , that in case of inveterate Heresie or Schism , either the sole Authority of Scripture is to be used , or at most the determinations of General Councils ; nay , and in all cases doth suppose , that the Canon of Scripture is perfect , and is abundantly sufficient of it self for all things . Can you yet therefore suppose , that Vincentius did think that Tradition did as truly confirm our Faith as the Scripture ? Which is your assertion , and the only thing whereby you pretend that the Bishop hath misconstrued Vincentius ; but whether be more guilty of it , I leave to impartial judgement . The next Testimony you consider , is , that of Henricus à Gandavo . For his Lordship had said , That the School had confessed , this was the way ever . For which he cites the Testimony of that Schoolman , That daily with them that are without Christ enters by the woman , i. e. the Church , and they believe by that fame which she gives ( alluding to the story of the woman of Samaria . ) But when they come to hear Christ himself , they believe His words before the words of the woman : For when they have once found Christ , they do more believe his words in Scripture , than they do the Church , which testifies of him ; because then propter illam , for the Scripture they believe the Church . And if the Church should speak contrary to the Scripture , they would not believe it . Thus ( saith his Lordship ) the School taught then . No , that did it not ( say you . ) But let us see , how rarely you prove it : For ( you say ) he speaks all this of a supernatural and Divine Faith to be given , both to the Scriptures , and the Church . Gandavensis certainly is much obliged to you , who venture to speak such great Absurdities for his sake ; for if he be understood in both places of Divine and Infallible Faith , these rare consequences follow . 1. That the first beginning of Faith is equal to the highest degree of it ; for when he speaks of the Church , he speaks of Christs entring by that , which can be meant of nothing else but the first step to Faith , as is plain in the parallel case of the woman of Samaria ; but if this were Divine and Infallible , it must be equal to the highest degree , for that I suppose can be but Divine and Infallible , unless you can find out degrees in Infallibility . By this Rule , you make him that is but over the threshold , as much in the house , as he that is sate down to the Table ; a plant at its first peeping out of the earth , to be as tall as at its full growth ; and the Samaritans as firmly to believe in Christ at the first mention of him by the Woman , as when they saw and heard him . 2. By this you make an Infallible Faith to be built on a Fallible Testimony ; for to what purpose else was the Similitude of the Woman of Samaria insisted on , but to parallel the Testimony of the Church with that of the Woman , and consequently the Faith built on the Churches Testimony to be like that which the Samaritans had of Christ upon the Womans Testimony ; and if you believe that Faith Infallible , you must assert , an Infal●●ble Faith to be built on a fallible Testimony , and yet to be as infallible , as that which is built on an Infallible Testimony : And then , I pray , tell me , To what end would you make your Churches Testimony Infallible , if Faith may be infallible without it ? But , it may be , though these seem hard things , yet you prove them invincibly : No doubt of it ; for , you say , That Christ enters by that Faith , but Christ cannot enter into a soul by a meer humane fallible perswasion , but by Divine Faith only . Nay , when he says , That he more believes the Scripture , than the Churches Testimony , he saith , That he believes the Church ; But how can he believe without Faith ? O the irresistible force of demonstrations ! But what silly people are we , that thought a man might enter into a house by the door , though he met not with his hearty entertainment till afterwards ? But , Do you really think , that Christ never enters into a soul , but by Divine and Infallible Faith ? For Christ enters by that which gives him his first admission , but his full reception must be by a higher degree of Faith. Do you think men believe as much at first as ever after ? If not , May not Christ be said to enter by that lower degree of Faith ? I pray , What think you of the case in hand , Did not the belief of Christ enter by the Woman of Samaria ? and was that , as Divine a Faith , as what they had afterwards ? Nay , take Christs entring ( as improperly as you can imagine it ) for his hearty reception in the soul , Can that be no other waies but by an Infallible Faith ? A Faith supposed to be built on infallible grounds , I grant ; but whether all , who do truly believe in Christ , do build their Faith on grounds in themselves infallible , my charity to some deluded souls in your Church ( as well as honest , but ignorant persons elsewhere ) gives me just reason to question . But still there is a greater subtilty behind , which is , if he believes the Scripture more than the Church , then he must believe the Church equally with the Scripture ; for that must be the meaning of what you say , when he sayes , He believes the Scripture more than the Church , he believes the Church ; but how can he believe without Faith ? Ergo , this must be Divine Faith , or else all the rest come to nothing . So that if I say , I believe the Scripture more than you , it follows , that I believe you as much as the Scripture , by the very same consequence . But you have gotten such a knack of contradicting your self , that poor Gandavo cannot fall into your hands , but you must make him do so too . When you say , A man cannot believe without Faith , I dare justifie it to be one of the greatest truths in your Book ; but , if your meaning be , A man cannot believe without Divine Faith , I hope we Protestants sufficiently confute that ; for you dare not deny that we believe at all , but ( just as the Devils do ) we must ( according to you ) believe and tremble , because our Faith is not Divine and Infallible . But still your subtilty works with you , for because Gandavensis saith , That we must yield our first Faith to the Scripture , but , secundam sub ista , a secondary Faith to the definitions and customs of the Catholick Church : You cry out , Here 's prima & secunda fides ; but yet both of them are properly and truly Faith. But , Are both of them properly and truly Divine Faith ? If so , How comes the distinction of the first and second , one subordinate to the other , if both be equally Divine and Infallible ? Nay , according to your Principles , the Faith given to the Church must be the first Faith , and to the Scriptures the second under that ; because , for the sake of the Churches Testimony , we are to believe the Scriptures . And , Do you really think , there may be no discovery of Infidelity in rejecting a sufficient Testimony for Faith , where there is not an Infallible Testimony ? But , whatever you think , your great enemy , Reason , tells us the contrary ; and therefore what follows of believing the Church , sub poenâ perfidiae , is to no more purpose than what went before . The strength therefore of all that you say as to this Testimony of Gandavensis , lyes in the proof of this one thing ; That no man can believe any thing without an Infallible Faith ; yet I verily believe that you have miserably perverted the Schoolmens words , and think no more Infallible Testimony requisite for it , than your own words . But , it may be , though you do so ill by the Schoolmen , you may use the Fathers more civilly . Three things therefore you have to answer to those Testimonies of the Fathers , which seem most to make use of internal Arguments . 1. That they use them not to such as had no Divine Faith , but to such as had . 2. That they do not use them as Primary , Infallible and Divine proofs , but as secondary arguments , perswasive only to such as believed Scripture to be Gods Word antecedently to them . 3. That they do not use only such proofs as are wholly internal to the Scripture it self . As to the two first conditions , you say 't is evident , these proofs were made by Christians , namely the Holy Fathers ; and commonly to Christians , who lived in their times . And as clear is it , that they never pronounced them to be the Primary , Infallible , and Divine Motives of their belief in that point , nor used they them as such . How false and absurd these Answers are , may appear by our precedent discourse , wherein we manifested , that the Christians insisted on those arguments there mentioned not for themselves and other Christians , but chiefly to convince and perswade by them the Gentile world to the belief of Christianity . And , Did they suppose these Heathens to have a Divine Faith already ? Or , Did they look on such arguments as only secondary motives , when these were the chief , nay only arguments which they used to perswade them ; if they had other that were Primary , Divine , and Infallible , and only made use of secondary , humane , probable motives , they were guilty of the highest betraying the Christian Cause imaginable . And you make them only to defend Christianity , as Vaninus did Divine Providence with such silly and weak arguments , that by their overthrow , the belief of it might fall with them . Indeed , if they had pretended the Infallible Testimony of the Church , there might have been just reason for such a Suspicion , and any wise men would have thought their design had been to make their Religion contemptible , and expose it to the derision of Atheists , instead of better establishing the Foundations of believing it . But those wise and holy men knew better the interest of Christianity , than to offer to defend it by Principles in themselves false , and much more liable to question than that was which they were to prove by them : and therefore made choice of arguments in themselves strong and evident , and built on Principles , common to themselves , and those whom they disputed against , i. e. they urged them with the greatest strength of Reason , and the clearest evidence of Divine Revelation , and never questioned but that a Faith built on those grounds , if effectual for a holy Life , was a true and Divine Faith. It seems then , your cause cannot be maintained , without the most sharp and virulent reflections on those Primitive Christians , who among all those arguments whereby they so successfully prevailed over the Gentile world , never did so much as vouchsafe to mention the least pretence to Infallibility ; for which they are now accused of using only the blunter weapons , of humane and fallible motives , and not those Primary and Divine Motives of Infallibility . But this is not the first time we have seen , what desperate shifts a bad cause puts men upon . It may be yet , your strength may lye in your last condition , viz. That these arguments used by them , were not internal . For , 1. You say , That of Miracles is external ; the Scriptures themselves work none , neither were ever any Miracles wrought to confirm , that all the Books now in the Canon ( and no more ) are the Word of God. I answer , 1. I have already told you of a double resolution of Faith , the one as to the Divinity of the Doctrine , the other as to the Veracity of the Books which contain it : when therefore Miracles are insisted on , it is not in order to the latter of these which we have sufficient assurance of without them , as I have already largely proved , both as to the Truth and Integrity of the Canon of Scripture ; but Miracles , we say , are the arguments to prove the Divinity of the Doctrine by , because they attest the Divine Revelation of the persons , who deliver this Doctrine to the world . 2. As to us who receive the report of those Miracles , as conveyed to us by the Scripture , those may be said to be internal arguments to the Scripture , which are there recorded in order to our believing the Doctrine therein contained to be Divine . The Motives of Faith being delivered to us now joyntly with the Doctrine , although on different grounds we believe the Veracity of the Books of Scripture , and the Infallibility of the Doctrine contained in it . We believe that the Miracles were truly done , because they are delivered to us by an unquestionable Tradition , in such Authentick Writings as the Scriptures are ; but we believe the Doctrine contained in the Books to be Divine , because attested by such Miracles , and we believe the Books of Scripture to be divinely inspired , because such persons cannot be supposed to falsifie to the world who wrought such great Miracles . 2. You say , The conversion of so many People and Nations by the Doctrine contained in Scripture , is also external to the Scripture . But still you suppose that these arguments are brought to prove these Books to be divinely inspired , which is denied ; we say only , That the admirable propagation of the Doctrine of the Gospel , is a great argument that it was from God. And therefore , when afterwards you say , That supposing all those arguments mentioned by the Bishop out of S. Augustine , to be internal to the Scripture , yet they cannot infallibly and divinely prove that Scripture is the Word of God. If by Scripture , you mean the Writings , we pretend not to it ; if by Scripture , you mean the Doctrine of it , we assert it , and think it no argument at all against that , which you add , That perswade they may , but convince they cannot ; no doubt if they perswade , they do much more than convince ; But , I suppose , your meaning is , they do it not effectually ; if so , that is not the fault of the arguments , but of the person , who by his obstinacy , will not hearken to the clearest evidence of Reason . All that this can prove , is a necessity of Divine Grace to go along with external evidence , which you dare not assert , for fear of running into that private Spirit , which you objected to his Lordship on the same account . But it is very pretty which follows : You say , Supposing that all those arguments mentioned , of Miracles , nothing carnal in the Doctrine , performance of it , and conversion of the world by it , were all of them internal to Scripture , yet they could not prove infallibly the Scripture to be the Word of God ; and to prove this , you tell us , concerning the third and fourth , How can it ever be proved , that either the performance of this Doctrine , or the conversion of Nations is internal to Scripture . But , Did you not suppose them before to be internal to Scripture ? and though they were so , yet could not prove the Scriture , & c ? and to prove that , you say they cannot be proved internal to Scripture . Which is just as if I should say , If you were Pope you would not be Infallible ; and all the evidence I should give for it , should be only to prove that you were not Pope . You conclude this Chapter with a Wonder ( I mean not any thing of Reason which would really be so ) But , say you , who can sufficiently wonder , that his Lordship , for these four Motives , should so easily make the Scripture give Divine Testimony to it self , upon which our Faith must rest , and yet deny the same priviledge to the Church . Seeing it cannot be denied , but that every one of these Motives are much more immediately and clearly applied to the Church , than to the Scripture . What ? more immediately and clearly ? and so clearly , that it cannot be denied ? Prove but any one of them as to that Church , whose Infallibility is in question , viz. the present Roman-Church , and I will yield you the rest . Produce but any one undoubted Miracle , to confirm the Infallibility of your Church , or the Pastors of it , shew your Doctrine ( wherein it differs from ours ) not to be carnal , manifest the performance of the Christian Doctrine , only in the members of your Church , prove that it is your Church , as such , which hath preached this Doctrine , and converted whole Nations to the belief of it ( in any other way than the Spaniards did the poor Indians ) and we may begin to hearken with somewhat more patience to your arrogant and unreasonable pretence of Infallibility . Can any one then who hath any grain of reason left him , think that from these arguments , while his Lordship disputes most eagerly against the present Churches Infallibility , he argues mainly for it , as you very wisely conclude that Chapter . If this be arguing for your Churches Infallibility , much good may such arguments do you . And so I come to the last part of my task as to this Controversie , which is , to examine your next Chapter , which puts us in hopes of seeing an End of this tedious Controversie : But this containing very little new in it ( and therefore deserves not to be handled apart ) will on that account admit of a quicker dispatch . In which the first Section begins with S. Austin's Testimony , which should have been considered before , and now it comes out with the same Answer attending it , which was given so lately concerning primary and infallible , and secondary and probable Motives of Faith , the vanity of which is sufficiently discovered . Whereas in your Margent , you bring an example of such a probable Motive , viz. when S. Austin saith to Faustus , That as constant Tradition was sufficient for him to believe that that Epistle was Manichaeus his , which went under his name ; so the same Tradition was sufficient to him to prove the Gospel was S. Matthew 's , which was so universally received for his , ever since the writing of it . I am so far from thinking this a meer probable Motive , that it is the highest evidence the matter is capable of , and so S. Austin thought . Your paralleling the saying of Waldensis ( That if the Church should speak any thing contrary to Scripture , he would not believe her ) with another which you pretend to be S. Austin's ; If the Scripture should speak any thing contrary to the Church , we could not believe that neither ; and then saying that both proceed on an impossible supposition , must imply , that it is an equal impossibility for the Church to deliver any thing contrary to the Doctrine of Scripture , as for the Scripture to contradict it self ; for to say , The Scripture should contradict the Church , signifies nothing , because the Being of the Church is founded on the Doctrine of Scripture . All that S. Austin saith , in the place you referr us to , comes to no more than this , If the Church were found deceived in the Writings of Scripture , then there could be no ground of any firm assent to them . And , is this , I pray , a fit parallel for that speech of Waldensis ? Is this to say , If the Scripture speak any thing against the Church , it is not to be believed ? In your next Sect. N. 2 , 3. you fall from Parallels , to Circles , and Semicircles ( as you call them ) in which you only shew us your faculty of mumbling the same things over and over , concerning his Lordships mistating the Question , about Infallible and Divine Faith , Apostolical Tradition , the formal Object of Faith , which I must , out of charity to the Readers patience , beg him to look back for the several Answers , if he thinks any thing needs it ; for I am now quite tired with these Repetitions , there being not one word added here , but what hath been answered already . But , lest th●se should not enough tire us , the next Sect. N. 4. consists of the old puff-paste of ultimate Motive , and formal Object , of the Infallibility which is not simply Divine , and others of a like nature , whose vanity hath been detected in the very entrance into this Controversie . It seems you had a great mind to give the Bishop a blow , when you reach as far , as from p. 103 , to p. 115. to do it , and yet fall short of it at last ; for , though you charge him with a false citation of S. Austin , for these words , fidei ultima resolutio est in Deum illuminantem , yet in that Chapter , though not the words , yet the sense is there extant , when he gives that account of Christian Faith , That it comes not by the authority of men , but from God himself confirming and inlightening our mind . Is not here a plain resolution of Faith in Deum illuminantem ? And therefore your charge of false citation , and your confident denial , That there is any such Text to be found either there , or any where else in all S. Augustine , argue , you are not careful what you say , so you may but throw dirt in your adversaries face , though we may easily know from whence it comes , by the foulness of your fingers . And for your other challenge , of producing any Testimony of the Fathers which saith , That we must resolve our Faith of Scripture into the Light of Scriptures ; I hope the Testimonies I have in this Chapter mentioned , may teach you a little more modesty : and for the other part of it , That we cannot believe the Scripture infallibly for the Churches authority , as far as a Negative can be proved , I dare appeal to the judgement of any one . Whether it be possible to believe that the Fathers judged , the Certainty , much less Infallibility of Christian Faith did depend on the Churches Infallible Testimony , and yet never upon the most just occasion do so much as mention it , but rather speak very much to the contrary . His Lordship having thus at large delivered his mind in this important Controversie ; to make what he had said the more portable , summs up the substance of it in several Considerations . Which being only a recapitulation of what hath been fully discussed already , will need the shorter Vindication , in some brief strictures , where you unjustly quarrel with them . To his 1. That it seems reasonable , that since all Sciences suppose Principles ; Theology should be allowed some too ; the chiefest of which is , That the Scriptures are of Divine Authority ; your Answer is considerable ; viz. that he confounds Theology , a discoursive Science , with Faith , which is an act of the Vnderstanding , produced by an Impulse of the Will , &c. But not to examine what hath been already handled , of the power of the Will in the act of Faith , it is plain when his Lordship speaks of Theology , he means Theology , and not Faith ; and the intent of this Consideration was to shew , the unreasonableness of starting this Question in a Theological Dispute about the Church . In your Answer to the second , you say , That Fallible Motives cannot produce Certainty , which if you would prove , you would do more to the purpose than you have done yet , and by this argument , I could not be certain , whether you had done it or no , unless you brought some Infallible Motives to prove it . The third you pass over . The fourth you grant , though not very consistently with what you elsewhere say : As to what you say in answer to the fifth , concerning Miracles , I agree with you in it , having elsewhere sufficiently declared my self as to them . For the sixth you referr to your former Answer , and so do I to the reply to it . In the seventh , his Lordship proves the necessity of some revelation from God rationally and strongly , and thence inferrs , That either there never was any such Revelation , or that the Scripture is that Revelation , and that 's it we Christians labour to make good against all Atheism , Prophaneness , and Infidelity . To which you have two Exceptions . 1. That this cannot be proved by the meer Light of Scripture , which His Lordship never pretended to . 2. That he leaves out the Word , only , which was the cause of the whole Controversie ; What , between Christians and Atheists ? For of that Controversie , he there speaks ; but since you are so fond of your unwritten Revelations , pray prove the necessity of them as strongly against Atheists , as his Lordship hath done the necessity of a written one . In the last Consideration he musters up all the several arguments whereby men may be perswaded , that this Revelation is contained in those Books we call the Scripture ; as the Tradition of the Church , the Testimony of former Ages , the consent of times , the Harmony of Prophets , and the Prophecies fulfilled , the success of the Doctrine , the constancy of it , the spiritual nature and efficacy of it , and lastly , the inward light and excellency of the Text it self ; which , with a great deal of Rhetorick , is there set forth . But to all this you say no more than what hath been abundantly disproved , viz. That all these only justifie our belief , when it is received as the ancients received it upon the Infallible Authority of Church-Tradition , but never otherwise . Whereas we have proved , that the ancients received it only on the same grounds , which are here mentioned , and therefore certainly are sufficient not only to justifie our Faith , but to perswade us to believe . Your argument against what his Lordship saith of the necessity of the Spirit 's assistance with these Motives , and the Light of Scripture for producing Divine Faith , will equally hold against all those of your own side , who hold the necessity of Gods Spirit for believing the Churches Infallibility , and against all such of both sides , who hold any necessity of Divine Grace , for then you must say , that either that Grace is not necessary in order to salvation , or that those who want it , are neither truly Christians , nor capable of salvation . And how horridly soever these consequences sound in the ears of the unlearned , they can sound no worse than those multitudes of Scriptures do which tell men , That without true Divine Faith , and real Grace , they are under eternal condemnation . But , it may be , that the unlearned may not be affrighted with such sentences as those are , you think it a great deal better to let them hear little or nothing of the Scripture , and to let them be continually entertained with the sweet and melodious voice of the Church . No doubt , you thought , your next argument had done the business effectually ; For ( say you ) to make them more sensible of the foulness of this errour , viz. the danger of such who do not savingly believe , Let them consider , that when young and unlearned Christians are taught to say their Creed , and profess their belief of the Articles contained in it , before they read Scripture , they are taught to lye , and profess to do that , which they neither do , nor can do in his Tenet . An excellent argument against making Children say their Creed ! but , Will not the same hold against all publick using of the Creed , because it is unquestionable but there are some who do not savingly or divinely believe it ? Nay , Will it not much more hold against any in your Church , saying their Creed at all , unless they first believe your Church to be Infallible , which is very well known that all do not . For then , according to you , they do but lye , and profess to do that which they neither do , nor can do , without the Churches Infallible Testimony : And therefore you must begin a new work of Catechizing the members of your Church , to know whether they believe the Churches Infallibility , before they can say their Creed . Unless you solve it among your selves , by saying , It is not a formal lye , but only an aequivocation , which many of you say , is lawful in case of danger , as you see apparently this is . But if the aequivocation be said only to lye in the word Believe , you might easily discern the weakness of your argument , through it . For if some may truly believe what they do not savingly believe , there is no lye certainly told , in saying , They do believe as far as they do ; which is by a firm assent to the Truth of all the Articles of Faith , by that which is call'd an historical , or dogmatical Faith , where there may be no saving Faith. But that because Children are taught ( as a short systeme of the Articles of Faith ) to say their Creed , we must be convinced of the foulness of our errour , is an apparent evidence , that either you apprehended our understandings to be very weak , or that you sufficiently discover your own to be so . The only quarrel which you have with his Lordships Synthetical way , is , That he confounds his Reader with multiplicity of arguments , and weakens the authority of the Church , without which ( if you may be believed ) he might tire himself and others , but never be able to make a clear resolution of Faith. How clear an account you have given of Faith in your Analytical way , by the Authority of the Church , hath been sufficiently laid open to you ; but I wonder not that you quarrel with multiplicity of arguments , there being nothing which doth really weaken the authority of your Church so much as they do , and they are men certainly of your temper , who will be soon tired with too much reason . What follows concerning the captiousness of the Question as first propounded ; and the vicious Circle you would free your selves of , by the Motives of Credibility ; deserve no further answer . Only when you would make A. C. go your way , and both together prove the Church Infallible independently on Scripture , you did not certainly consider , that it is an Infallibility by Promise , which you challenge , and , for that end , in the precedent Chapter , were those places of Scripture produced by A. C. and urged by you . All that I shall return by way of Answer to your tedious discourse concerning Scriptures being a Principle supposed among Christians ( the main of it depending on the circumstances of the dispute between his Lordship and Mr. Fisher ) shall be in these following particulars . 1. That in all Controversies among Christians , whose decision depends upon the authority of Scripture , the Scripture must be supposed as granted to be of Divine Authority by both parties . 2. That in that Question , Whether the Scripture contains all necessary things of Faith , that necessity must be supposed to relate to the things which depend upon Scripture , and therefore implies it believed on other grounds , that this Scripture is of Divine Revelation . For the Question is , Whether God hath consigned his Will so fully to us , in this Revelation of himself , that nothing necessary to be believed is left out of it ? For men then to say , That this is left out of it , viz. to believe that this is a Divine Revelation , is an unreasonable Cavil , it being supposed in the very Question , that it is so . 3. That in this sense the Scripture may be said to be a supposed Principle , because it hath a different way of probation , from particular objects of Faith , revealed in Scripture . For to a rational Enquirer , who seems to doubt of the Truth of Scriptures , it is equally absurd to give him any one of these three Answers . 1. That it is a Principle to be supposed : for , though it be supposed as to the particular debate depending on Scripture ; yet it is fond and absurd to say , It must be supposed when it is the thing in question . 2. That it is known meerly by its own Light : for the person I have to deal with , supposing himself equally capable to judge of Reason and Evidence , as my self , it doth but betray the weakness of my cause , or my inability to manage it , to pretend that to be evident , which it is much more evident that he doth not think so ; and it is only to tell him , my Vnderstanding must rule his , and that whatever appears to me to have Light in it self , ought likewise so appear to him . 3. It is as absurd as either of the other two , to say , That you will prove to a rational Enquirer , the Scripture to be Gods Word , by an unwritten Word of God. For , 1. His Enquiry is , Whether there be any Word of God or no , you prove there is , because there is ; for that is all you prove by your unwritten Word . He denies , or at least questions , Whether there be any , and particularly instanceth in Scripture ; you think to end the Question , by telling him , He must believe it to be so , because there is another Word of God which attests it , which , instead of ending the first Question , begets a great many more . For , 2. He will be more to seek , concerning this unwritten Word than before ; because he might use his Reason in judging concerning the written Word , but cannot as to this unwritten ; it being only told him , There is such a thing , but he knows not what it is , how far it extends , who must deliver it , what evidence this hath beyond the other , that it comes from God , that it must be used as an argument to prove it with . If you send him to the Infallibility of the Church , you must either presume him of a very weak Vnderstanding , or else he would easily discern your perfect jugling in this ; the veins of which I have discovered throughout this discourse . There remains nothing then but Reason , a Principle common to us both ; by which I must prove , that the Scriptures are from God , which Reason partly makes use of the Churches Tradition , not in any notion of Infallibility , but meerly as built on Principles common to humane nature , and partly uses those other arguments which prove by the greatest rational evidence , that the Doctrine contained in Scripture , was from God ; and if this were all the meaning of saying , The Scriptures are a Principle supposed , because of a different way of proving them , from particular objects of Faith , you can have no reason to deny it . The next thing his Lordship insists on , is , That the Jews never had , nor can have any other proof , that the Old Testament is the Word of God , than we have of the New. In your Answer to which , I grant that which you contend for , That the Tradition of Scriptures among them , was by their immediate Ancestors as well as others ; I grant , That their Faith was not a Scientifical Knowledge , but a firm & perfect assurance only ( but understand not what you mean , by saying , That otherwise it would not be meritorious ) but am as far to seek as ever for any Infallibility in the Jewish Church , which should in every age be the ground of believing the Books of the Old Testament to be divinely inspired . And if you will prove a constant succession of Prophets from Moses till our Saviour's appearing ( which you seem willing to believe ) you would do something towards it ; but for your permanent Infallible Authority in the High Priest and his Clergy , I have already shewed it to be a groundless , if not a wilful mistake . What remains concerning the nature of Infallibility ( which at last his Lordship makes to be no more than that which excludes all possibility of doubting , and therefore grants , that an Infallible Assurance may be had by Ecclesiastical and Humane proof ) and how far that is requisite to Faith ; concerning moral Certainty , and what Assurance may be had by it ; concerning the Canon of Scripture , Apostolical Tradition , the unwritten Word , S. Austin 's Testimony about the Church , they are all points so fully discussed before , that out of pity to the Reader , I must referr him to their several places , which when he hath throughly considered , I will give him leave to summ up the several victories you have obtained in the management of it , which will be much more honourable for you , than for your self to do it , as you do most triumphantly in the end of this Controversie concerning the Resolution of Faith. And although I have not been much surprized with your attempts , yet I shall heartily conclude this great Debate with your last words in it . The Consequence I leave to the serious consideration of the Judicious Reader . I beseech God he may make benefit of it to his eternal felicity . PART II. Of Schism . CHAP. I. Of the Universal Church . The Question of Schism explained . The nature of it enquired into . Several general Principles laid down for clearing the present Controversie . Three grounds of the charge of Schism on Protestant Churches by our Authour . The first , of the Roman Churches being the Catholick Church , entered upon . How far the Roman Church may be said to be a true Church . The distinction of a Church morally and metaphysically true justified . The grounds of the Vnity of the Catholick Church , as to Doctrine and Government . Cardinal Perron's distinction of the formal , causal , and participative Catholick Church examined . The true sense of the Catholick Church in Antiquity manifested from St. Cyprian , and several cases happening in his time : as , the Schism of Novatianus at Rome ; the case of Felicissimus and Fortunatus . Several other Instances out of Antiquity to the same purpose , by all which it is manifest that the unity of the Catholick Church had no dependance on the Church of Rome . The several testimonies to the contrary of St. Ambrose , St. Hierome , John Patriarch of Constantinople , St. Augustine , Optatus , &c. particularly examined ; and all found short of proving that the Roman Church is the Catholick Church . The several Answers of his Lordship to the testimonies of St. Cyprian , St. Hierom , St. Greg. Nazianzene , St. Cyril , and Ruffinus , about the infallibility of the Church of Rome , justified . From all which it appears that the making the Roman-Church to be the Catholick , is a great Novelty and perfect Jesuitism . SInce so great and considerable parts of the Christian Church , have in these last ages been divided in communion from each other , the great contest and enquiry hath been , which party stands guilty of the cause of the present distance and separation . For , both sides retain still so much of their common Christianity , as to acknowledge that no Religion doth so strictly oblige the owners of it to peace and unity as the Christian Religion doth ; and yet notwithstanding this , we finde these breaches so farr from closing , that , supposing the same grounds to continue , a reconciliation seems to humane reason impossible . An evidence of which , is , that those persons who either out of a generous desire of seeing the wounds of the Christian world healed , or out of some private interest or design , have made it their business to propound terms of reconciliation between the divided parties , have been equally rejected by those parties they have professed themselves the members of . For whether any of the Roman Communion have ingenuously confessed the great corruptions crept into that Church , and desired a reformation of them , or any of the Protestant Communion have endeavoured to excuse , palliate , or plead for the corruptions of the Roman Church : we find how little incouragement they have had for such undertakings from that Church whose Communion they have professed to retain . The distance then being so great as it is , it is a very necessary enquiry what the cause of it is , and where the main fault lies ; and it being acknowledged that there is a possibility that corruptions may get into a Christian Church , and it being impossible to prove that Christianity obligeth men to communicate with a Church in all those corruptions its Communion may be tainted with , it seems evident to reason that the cause of the breach must lye there , where the corruptions are owned and imposed as conditions of Communion . For , can any one imagine it should be a fault in any to keep off from Communion , where they are so far from being obliged to it , that they have an obligation to the contrary , from the prinples of their common Christianity ? and where men are bound not to communicate , it is impossible to prove their not communicating to be Schism . For there can be no Schism , but where there is an obligation to communion ; Schism being nothing else but a willful violation of the bonds of Christian Communion ; and therefore when ever you would prove the Protestants guilty of Schism , you must do it by proving they were bound to communicate with your Church in those things , which they are Protestants for disowning of . Or that there is so absolute and unlimited an obligation to continue in the Society of your Church , that no conditions can be so hard , but we are bound rather to submit to them , than not joyn in Communion with you . But we who look on the nature of a Christian Society in general , the Foundations of its constitution , the ends and designs of it , cannot think our selves obliged to Communion in those things which undermine those Foundations , and contradict those ends . This being a matter of so vast consequence , in order to the settling mens minds in the present disputes of the Christian world , before I come to particulars , I shall lay down those general principles which may manifest how free Protestants are , from all imputation of Schism . Schism then importing a violation of that Communion which we are obliged to , the most natural way for understanding what Schism is , is to enquire what the Foundations are of Christian Communion , and how far the bonds of it do extend . Now the Foundations of Christian Communion in general depend upon the acknowledgement of the truth of Christian Religion . For that Religion which Christ came to deliver to the world being supposed true , is the reason why any look on themselves as obliged to profess it ; which obligation extending to all persons who have the same grounds to believe the truth of it , thence ariseth the ground of Society in this profession , which is a common obligation on several persons joyning together in some acts of common concernment to them . The truth then of Christian Religion being acknowledged by several persons , they find in this Religion some actions which are to be performed by several persons in Society with each other . From whence ariseth that more immediate obligation to Christian Society , in all those who profess themselves Christians ; and the whole number of these who own the truth of Christian Religion and are thereby obliged to joyn in Society with each other , is that which we call the Catholick Church . But although there be such a relation to each other in all Christians as to make them one common Society ; yet for the performance of particular acts of communion , there must be lesser Societies wherein persons may joyn together in the actions belonging to them . But still the obligation to communion in these lesser , is the same with that which constitutes the great body of Christians , which is the owning Christianity as the only true Religion and way to eternal Happiness . And therefore those lesser Societies cannot in justice make the necessary conditions of communion narrower , than those which belong to the Catholick Church ; i. e. those things which declare men Christians , ought to capacitate them for communion with Christians . But here we are to consider that as to be a Christian supposeth mens owning the Christian Religion to be true , so the conveyance of that Religion being to us now in those Books we call the Scriptures , there must be an acknowledgement of them as the indispensable rule of Faith and manners , which is , That these Books are the great Charter of the Christian Society , according to which it must be governed . These things being premised as the foundation in general of Christian Society , we shall the better understand how far the obligation to communion in it doth extend . For which it must be considered , that the grounds of continuance in Communion , must be suitable and proportionable to the first reason of entering into it . No man being obliged by vertue of his being in a Society , to agree in any thing which tends to the apparent ruine of that Society ; but he is obliged to the contrary , from the general grounds of his first admission into it . His primary obligation being to preserve the honour and interest of it , and to joyn in acts of it so far as they tend to it . Now the main end of the Christian Society being the promotion of Gods honour and the salvation of mens souls , the primary obligation of men entering into it , is the advancement of these ends , to joyn in all acts of it so far as they tend to these ends ; but if any thing come to be required directly repugnant to these ends , those men of whom such things are required , are bound not to communicate in those lesser Societies where such things are imposed , but to preserve their communion with the Catholick Society of Christians . But these general discourses seeming more obscure , it will be necessary for the better subserviency of them to our design , to deduce them into particulars . Setting then aside the Catholick Society of Christians , we come to enquire how far men are bound to communicate with any lesser Society , how extensive so ever it may pretend its communion to be . 1. There is no Society of Christians of any one Communion , but may impose some things to be believed or practised which may be repugnant to the general Foundations of Christian Society . But if any Society shall pretend a necessity of communion with her , because it is impossible this should be done by her : this priviledge must in reason be as evident as the common grounds of Christianity are ; nay much more evident , because the belief of Christianity it self , doth ( upon this pretence ) depend on the knowledge of such Infallibility , and the indispensable obligation to communion depends upon it . 2. There being a possibility acknowledged , that particular Churches may require unreasonable conditions of communion ; the obligation to communion cannot be absolute and indispensable ; but only so far as nothing is required destructive to the ends of Christian Society . Otherwise men would be bound to destroy that which they believe , and to do the most unjust and unreasonable things . But the great difficulty lyes in knowing when such things are required , and who must be the judge in that case : to which I answer , 3. Nothing can be more unreasonable , then that the Society imposing such conditions of communion should be judge , whether those conditions be just and equitable or no. If the question only were in matters of peace , and conveniency , and order , the judgement of the Society ought to over-rule the judgements of particular persons ; but in such cases where great Bodies of Christians , judge such things required to be unlawful conditions of communion , what justice or reason is there , that the party accused should sit Judge in her own cause ? 4. Where there is sufficient evidence from Scripture , reason , and tradition , that such things which are imposed are unreasonable conditions of Christian communion , the not communicating with that Society which requires these things cannot incurr the guilt of Schism . Which necessarily follows from the precedent grounds , because none can be obliged to communion in such cases , and therefore the not communicating is no culpable separation . 5. By how much the Societies are greater which are agreed in not communicating with a Church imposing such conditions , by how much the power of those who rule those Societies so agreeing is larger , by so much the more justifiable is the Reformation of any Church from these abuses , and the setling the bonds of Christian communion without them . And on those grounds , viz. the Church of Romes imposing unlawful conditions of communion , it was necessary not to communicate with her ; and on the Church of Englands power to reform it self by the assistance of the Supream power , it was lawful and justifiable not only to redress those abuses , but to settle the Church upon its proper and true foundations . So that the Church of Romes imposing unlawful conditions of communion , is the reason why we do not communicate with her , and the Church of Englands power to govern and take care of her self , is the reason of our joyning together in the service of God upon the principles of our Reformation . On these grounds I doubt not but to make it appear , how free the Church of England is from all imputation of Schism . These things being thus in general premised , we come to consider what those principles are on which you can found so high a charge as that of Schism on the Protestant Churches . And having throughly considered your way of management of it , I find all that you have to say may be resolved into one of these three grounds . 1. That the Roman Church is the true and only Catholick Church . 2. That our Churches could have no power or cause to divide in their Communion from her . 3. That the Authority of the Roman Church is so great , that upon no pretence soever could it be lawful to withdraw from Communion with her . I confess , if you can make good any one of these three , you do something to the purpose ; but how little ground you have to charge us with Schism from any of these Principles will be the design of this Part at large to manifest . I begin then with the first , which is the pretence of your Churches being the Catholick Church : and here we again enter the lists to see how fairly you deal with your Adversary . Mr. Fisher saith , That from the Controversie of the resolution of Faith the Lady call●d them ; and desiring to hear , whether the Bishop would grant the Roman Church to be the right Church ? the Bishop ( saith he ) granted that it was . To which his Lordship answers ( after a just complaint of the abuse of disputations , by mens resolution to hold their own , though it be by unworthy means and disparagement of truth ) that the question was neither asked in that form , nor so answered . And that there is a great deal of difference ( especially as Romanists handle the question of the Church ) between The Church and A Church , and there is some between a True Church and a Right Church . For The Church may import the only true Church , and perhaps the root and ground of the Catholick . And this ( saith he ) I never did grant of the Roman Church , nor ever mean to do . But A Church , can imply no more , then that it is a member of the whole . And this I never did ( saith he ) nor ever will deny , if it fall not absolutely away from Christ. That it is a True Church I granted also ; but not a Right . For Truth only imports the being ; right , perfection in conditions ; thus a Thief is a true man , though not an upright man. So a corrupt Church may be true , as a Church is a company of men which profess the Faith of Christ and are baptized into his Name ; but it is not therefore a right Church , either in doctrine or manners . And this ( he saith ) is acknowledged by very learned Protestants before him . This is the substance of his Lordships answer , to which we must consider what you reply ; That about the terms of the Ladie 's question you grant to be a verbal Controversie ; and that whatever her words were , she was to be understood to demand this alone , viz. Whether the Roman were not the True , Visible , Infallible Church out of which none can be saved ; for , herein ( you say ) she had from the beginning of the Controversie desired satisfaction : And in this subject the Roman Church could not be any Church at all , unless it were The Church and a Right Church . The reason is , because St. Peters successour , being the Bishop of Rome , and Head of the whole Church ( as you tell us you will prove anon ) that must needs be the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if it be any Church at all . And because the Church can be but one , if it be a true Church it must be the right Church . But all this amounts only to a confident assertion of that which wants evident proof , which is , that the notion of a Church relates to one as appointed the Head of the whole Church , without which it would be no Church at all . Which being a thing so hard to be understood , and therefore much harder to be proved , we must be content to wait your leasure till you shall think fit to prove it . When you therefore tell us afterwards , That the Vniversal Church supposes the acknowledgement of the same Vicar of Christ , and that those Dioceses which agree in this acknowledgement as well as in the same Faith , and communion of the same Sacraments make up one and the same Vniversal Church ; When you further add , That the Roman Church is therefore stiled the Church , because it is the seat of the Vicar of Christ and chief Pastor of the Church Vniversal : I can only say to all these confident affirmations , that if you had sat in the chair your self , you could not have said more or proved less . It is not therefore in what sense words may be taken by you ( for who questions but you may abuse words ? ) but in what sense they ought to be taken . You may call the Bishop of Rome the Vicar of Christ , but before you can expect our submission to him , you must prove that he is so ; you may call the Roman Church , The Church if you please , among your selves : but if by that you would perswade us there can be no Church but that , you would do an office of kindness to offer a little at some small proof of it , i. e. as much as the cause , and your abilities will afford . And what if the Ancients by a true Church did mean an Orthodox Church ? I know but one of these things will follow from it , either that they took a true Church for one morally and not metaphysically true ; or that if your Church be not an Orthodox Church , it can be none at all . From hence you proceed to quarrel with his Lordship for saying , That may be a true Church which is not a right Church ( which is all the thanks he hath for his kindness to you ) ; for ( say you ) how can you call that a true Church in which men are not taught the way to Heaven , but to eternal perdition ? Which is as much as to ask , How you can call that man a true man that hath a Leprosie upon him . But if you had considered , what his Lordship had said , you would never have made such an objection . For his Lordship doth not speak of the soundness of a Church , but of the metaphysical entity of it . For he saith , It is true in that sense as ens and verum , Being and True , are convertible one with another ; and every thing that hath a Being is truly that Being which it is in truth of substance . But ( say you ) , how can that be a true Church which teacheth the way to eternal perdition by some false Doctrine in matter of Faith ? because it either teacheth something to be the Word of God which is not ; or denies that to be his Word which is : to err in this sort is certainly to commit high and mortal offence against the honour and veracity of God , and consequently the direct way to eternal perdition . An excellent discourse to prove that no man can be saved that is not Infallible ! for if he be not Infallible he may either teach something to be Gods Word which is not , or deny that to be his Word that is ; either of which being a mortal offence against the honour and veracity of God , it is impossible any man that is not Infallible should be saved : either then we must put off that humanity which exposes us to errour , or pronounce it impossible for any men to be saved , or else assert that there may be errour where Gods veracity is not denyed . And if so , then not only men severally but a Society of men may propound that for truth which is not , and yet not mortally offend against Gods veracity ; supposing that Society of men doth believe ( though falsly ) that this is therefore true because revealed by God. In which case that Church may be a true Church in one sense , though an erroneous Church in another : true , as there is a possibility of salvation in it ; erroneous , as delivering that for truth which is not so . But here is a great deal of difference between a Church acknowledging her self fallible , and that which doth not . For suppose a Church propose something erroneous to be believed , if she doth not arrogate Infallibility to her self in that proposal , but requires men to search and examine her doctrine by the Word of God , the danger is nothing so great to the persons in her communion ; but when a Church pretends to be Infallible and teacheth errours , that Church requiring those errours to be believed upon her Authority , without particular examination of the Doctrines proposed , is chargeable with a higher offence against the honour and veracity of God , and doth as much as in her lies ( in your expression ) teach men the way to eternal perdition . And of all sorts of blind guides it is most dangerous following such who pretend to be Infallible in their blindness ; and it is a great miracle if such do not fall past recovery . The more therefore you aggravate the danger of errour , the worse still you make the condition of your Church , where men are bound to believe the Church Infallible , when she proposeth the most dangerous errours . When you say , The whole Church is not lyable to these inconveniencies of seducing or being seduced , if you mean ( as you speak ) of that which is truly the whole Church of Christ , you are to seek for an Adversary in it ; if you mean the Roman Church you are either seduced or endeavour to seduce in saying so , when neither that is or can be the whole Church , neither is it free from believing or proposing errours as will appear afterwards . You quarrel with his Lordship again , for his Similitude of a man that may be termed a man and not be honest , and say it comes not home to the case . But we must see , how well you have fitted it . Instead of a man , you would have a Saint put , and then ( you say ) the Parallel would have held much better . But certainly then you mean only such Saints as Rome takes upon her to Canonize ; for the Question was of one that might be a man , and not be honest , Will you say the same of your Saint too ? If instead of Saint , you had put his Holiness in , there are some in the world would not have quarrelled with you for it . But you are an excellent man at paralleling cases : His Lordship was speaking of the Metaphysical Truth of a Church being consistent with moral corruptions , for which he instanced in a thiefs being truly a man , though not an honest man ; now you , to mend the matter , make choice of moral Integrity , being consistent with Metaphysical Truth , which is of a Saint , and a man. And , Doth not this now come home to our case ? That which follows , to shew the incongruity of his Lordships Similitude would much more shew your wit , if it were capable of tolerable sense : For , you say , the word Church in our present debate , implies not a simple or uncompounded term , as that of man , but is a compound of substance and accidents together . We had thought , Man had been a compound of substance and accidents , as well as a Church : Or , Did you mean some transubstantiated man , that had accidents without substance ? But as his Lordship spake of a true real man , who yet might want moral Integrity ; so he supposed there might be a true real Church , as to the essential parts of it , which yet might be in other respects a corrupted and defiled Church . But when you add , That the notion of a Church implies Integrity and Perfection of Conditions , still you betray your weak or wilful mistakes of a Church morally for Metaphysically true . If you will prove it impossible for a Church to retain its Being , that hath any errours in Doctrine , or corruptions in Practice , you will do something to the purpose : but when you have done it , see what you get by it ; for then we shall not so much as acknowledge your Church to be Metaphysically a true Church . If his Lordship therefore be so charitable , as to say , That because your Church receives the Scripture as a Rule of Faith : ( though but as a partial and imperfect Rule ) and both the Sacraments as Instrumental causes and seals of Grace ( though they add more , and misuse these ) it cannot but be a true Church in essence : And you , on the other side , say , If it doth misuse the Sacraments , and make the Scripture an imperfect Rule of Faith , it would be unchurched ; Let the Reader judge , whether his Lordships charity for , or your own Testimony against your Church , be built on better grounds . What follows concerning the Holy Catholick Church in the Apostles Creed , the entire Catholick Faith in the Athanasian Creed , the Churches being the Spouse of Christ , and a pure Virgin , are all things as true in themselves , as your Church is little concerned in them . The truly Catholick Church being quite another thing from that which goes under the name of the Roman Catholick Church ; and this latter may prostitute her self to errour , while the other remains a pure Virgin ; and it is only your saying , That yours only is the Catholick Church , which is in effect to say , That Christ hath a Harlot to his Spouse , as you speak . To omit that which you call , A further skirmishing about the form of words , and whether it savoured more of prudence , and charity , or cunning in the Jesuite , to instruct the Lady what Questions she should ask ; we come to that which is the main subject of this chapter , viz. Whether the Church be stiled Catholick by its agreeing with Rome , which ( you say ) was a received and known Truth in the Ancient Church , but is so far from being in the least true , that his Lordship deservedly calls it , A perfect Jesuitism . For ( saith he ) in all the Primitive times of the Church , a Man , or a Family , or a National Church were accounted right and orthodox , as they agreed with the Catholick Church , but the Catholick was never then measured or judged by Man , Family , or Nation . But now in the Jesuits new School , the One , Holy , Catholick Church , must be measured by that which is in the Diocese or City of Rome , or of them which agreed with it ; and not Rome by the Catholick . So upon the matter , belike the Christian Faith was committed to the custody of the Roman , not of the Catholick Church ; and a man cannot agree with the Catholick Church of Christ ( in this new doctrine of A. C. ) unless he agree with the Church of Rome ; but if he agree with that , all is safe , and he is as orthodox , as he need be . To which you seem to answer at first by some slight tergiversations , as , though this did not follow from A. C 's words , and that the Lady did not trouble her self with such punctilio's as those of the agreement of the Catholick Church with Rome , or Romes agreeing with the Catholick Church , but at last you take heart , and affirm stoutly , That the Church is stiled Catholick from its agreement with Rome , and that this is no Jesuitism , but a received and known Truth in the Ancient Church . In these terms then I fix my self , and this present dispute ; as containing the proper state of the Controversie concerning the Catholick Church . And if you can make it appear that the Church is stiled Catholick by agreeing with Rome , and that this was a received Truth in the Ancient Church , then you may very plausibly charge us with Schism in our separation from Rome ; but if the contrary be made evident , by your own pretence we are freed from that charge . Now in the handling this Controversie , you first explain your terms , and then produce your Testimonies . In the explication of your terms , you tell us , The word Catholick may be used in three different Acceptions , viz. either formally , causally , or by way of participation . Formally , the Vniversal Church , i. e. the society of all true particular Churches , united together in one body , in one Communion , under one Head , is called Catholick . Causally the Church of Rome is stiled Catholick , because it hath an influence and force to cause Vniversality in the whole body of the Church Catholick ; to which two things are necessary , Multitude and Vnity . The Roman Church therefore , which as a Center of Ecclesiastical Communion , infuses this Vnity , which is the form of Vniversality , into the Catholick Church , and thereby causes in her Vniversality , may be called Catholick causally , though she be but a particular Church . As he that commands a whole Army is stiled General , though he be but a particular person . Thirdly , every particular orthodox Church is termed Catholick participative , by way of participation , because they agree in , and participate of the Doctrine and Communion of the Catholick Church . For which ( you bring ) the instance of the Church of Smyrna writing to the Catholick Church of Philomilion , &c. Thus we see ( say you ) both how properly the Roman Church is called Catholick , and how the Catholick Church it self takes causally the denomination of Vniversal or Catholick from the Roman , considered as the chief particular Church , infusing Vnity to all the rest , as having dependence of her , and relation to her . Thus I have recited your words , that we may fully understand your meaning ; the substance of which is couched in your last words , That the reason why any Church was accounted Catholick , was from its Vnion with the Church of Rome . But if it appear that this sense of the Catholick Church is wholly a stranger to Antiquity , That the Catholick Church was so call'd upon farr different accounts than those mentioned by you , If the Church of Rome had no other relation to the Catholick Church but as a member of it as other Churches were , then all this discourse of yours comes to nothing , and that is it which I now undertake to prove . Now the Vnity of the Catholick Church lying in two things , the Doctrine and the Government of it , if in neither of these , it had any dependence of the Church of Rome , then certainly it could not be call'd Catholick , causally from the Church of Rome . First , the Church was called Catholick from the Vniversal spread of its Doctrine , and the agreement of all particular Churches in it . So Irenaeus derives the Vnity of the Church spread abroad over the world from the Vnity of that Faith which was Universally received , and from thence saith , That the Church is but as one house , and having one soul and heart , and speaks as with one mouth . Nothing can be more plain then that Irenaeus makes the consent in Doctrine to be the ground of Vnity in the Catholick Church . And that he did not suppose this consent to arise from the Church of Rome appears from what he saith before , That this Faith was received in the Church so universally spread from the Apostles and their Disciples . Which must be understood of that universal diffusion of it by the first Preachers of it in the world , the continuance of which Doctrine was the ground of the Vnity in the Catholick Church . To the same purpose Tertullian gives an account of the Churches Vnity , by the adhering to that Doctrine which was first preached by the Apostles , who having first delivered it in Judea and planted Churches there , went abroad and declared the same to other Nations and setled Churches in Cities , from whence other Churches have the same Doctrine propagated to them , which are therefore call'd Apostolical Churches , as the off-spring of those which were founded by them . Therefore so many and so great Churches , are all that one prime Apostolical Church from whence all others come . And thus they are all prime and Apostolical in regard of their Vnity , as long as there is that communication of that title of Brotherhood and common mark of peace and hospitality . Wherein we see that which made Churches in Tertullians sense Apostolical , is the embracing and continuing in that Doctrine which was first delivered by the Apostles ; and thus Churches though remote from the Apostolical times may have the denomination of Apostolical from their consent in Doctrine with those which were founded by them . But here is not the least intimation of any centre of Ecclesiastical communion infusing unity into the Catholick Church , for this unity ariseth from that Doctrine which was declared in and propagated by all the Apostolical Churches . So likewise Theodoret speaks , That there is one Church throughout the world , and therefore we pray , for the Holy , One , Catholick , and Apostolick Church , extended from one end of the earth to the other . Which ( saith he ) is divided by Cities , and Towns , and Villages , so that there are infinite and innumerable Churches in the Islands and Continent , but all these are reduced to one being united in the agreement of the same true doctrine . So Constantine in his Epistle to the Bishops who were absent from the Council of Nice , saith , That our Saviour would have one Catholick Church , whose members though dispersed in many several places , yet are nourished by the same Spirit which is the Will of God. In all which and many other places which might be produced to the same purpose , we see a quite different account given of the unity of the Catholick Church , from that which you mention as the cause of it ; we find the Church call'd Catholick in regard of its large extent in the world ( as is apparent besides these testimonies , from the Controversies between St. Austin and the Donatists ) and the unity of that Catholick Church not placed in the least respect to the Church of Rome , but in the consent in the Apostolical Doctrine in all those Churches which concurred as members to make up this Catholick Church . So that the formal reason of any particular Churches having the denomination of Catholick , must come not from any communion with the Church of Rome ; but from the owning the Catholick and Apostolick Faith , and joyning in communion with those Churches which did own and acknowledge it . And therefore we find that the symbol of communion in the ancient communicatory letters never lay in the acknowledgement of Christs Vicar on earth , or communion with the Church of Rome , but in such things which were common to all Apostolical Churches . And therefore the Church of Rome could not be then accounted the center of Ecclesiastical communion as you speak , after Cardinal Perron , from whom you have Verbatim transcribed all your former discourse . This being therefore the utmost which that great witt of your Church was able to plead in behalf of its being the Catholick Church , it deserves to be further considered . We come therefore to that kind of unity in the Catholick Church which depends on the Government of it ; and this is that , which is pretended as the ground of the Roman Churches being the Catholick Church ; because though ( as Cardinal Perron says ) she be in her own Being particular , yet she may be call'd Catholick causally , as the center and beginning of Ecclesiastical communion , infusing unity which is the form of universality into the Catholick Church . This therefore must be more narrowly searched into , to see if this were a known and received truth in the ancient Church . Which is so far from it , that we find no such causal influence from the Church of Rome then owned or asserted , but that the Catholick Church was a whole consisting of homogeneal parts , without any such subordination or dependence , as the contrary supposition implies . This is , by none more fully asserted , than by such who have with the greatest zeal and industry stood up for the unity of the Catholick Church . The first of whom is St. Cyprian ; in whose time and writings there are very remarkable cases occurring to clear , upon what terms the unity of the Catholick Church did then stand . The first I begin with , is the case which arose in the Church about the Schism of Novatianus , which will give us the fuller discovery of the grounds of unity in the Catholick Church , because the first rise of this Schism was in Rome it self . For Novatus coming to Rome in a discontent from Africa , falls in with Novatianus ( which two names the Greek writers of the Church commonly confound ) who being likewise under discontent at the election of Cornelius to be Bishop of Rome , was ready to joyn with the other in fomenting a Schism . For which , they made this their pretext , That Cornelius had admitted such to communion who had lapsed in the persecution of Decius which tended to the overthrow of the Churches purity ? upon this , Novatianus gets himself ordained , by three Bishops , Bishop of Rome in opposition to Cornelius : the fame of which Schism being spread abroad , there was great making of parties on both sides . Cyprian and the Churches of Africa after full inquiry into it declare for Cornelius , so did Dionysius of Alexandria and the Churches there ; but Fabius of Antioch with the Churches of Pontus and Cilicia suspend , and rather encline to Novatianus , for some time ; till they were after , more fully satisfied by Dionysius of Alexandria . Now here is a case wherein the grounds of unity in the Catholick Church may be easily discerned , which it is plain from the proceedings in it , were ( as in all such emergent cases ) what should be determined and agreed on , by the consent of the Catholick Church : i. e. of those Churches which all consented in the same Catholick Faith , and therefore made up one Catholick Church . Now if the Church of Rome had been the center of Ecclesiastical communion , and had infused Catholick unity into the Church at this time , what way or possibility had there been for restoring the Churches unity ? Neither was the appeal made to forraign Churches meerly because Rome it self was divided , and so the Controversie could not be ended there , but it appears from the whole story of the proceedings , that this was looked on as the proper means for preserving the unity of the Catholick Church , at that time ; when the Faith and communion of the Apostolical Churches were so fully known and distinguished from all others . These things will more fully appear from St. Cyprians Epistle to Antonianus upon the occasion of this Schism . Who it seems at first adhered to Cornelius and with him to the Catholick Church , ( not as though his joyning with Cornelius was the cause of his being with the Catholick Church , but because in joyning with him , he joyned with the Catholick Church which declared for him ) ; but it seems afterwards by some Letters of Novatianus he began to stagger , and desires Cyprian to give him an account what Heresie Novatianus broached , and what the reason was why Cornelius communicated with the lapsed persons . As to which particulars he endeavours to satisfie him , and withall to give an account why they joyned with Cornelius in opposition to Novatianus , and what the practise of the Church was , as to lapsed persons , and on what reasons it was built : wherein he tells him , That though some of their own Bishops had formerly denyed communion to lapsed persons , yet they did not recede from the Vnity of the Catholick Church , or communion of their Fellowships , because by them they were admitted . For , saith he , the bond of concord remaining , and the communion of the Catholick Church continuing , every Bishop orders and disposeth his own actions as one that must give an account of his design to God. Doth St. Cyprian here speak like one that believed the Church of Rome to be the center of Ecclesiastical communion ? or , that the unity of the Church lay in acknowledging the Pope to be Christs Vicar , or in dependence on the Church of Rome ? when every Bishop is left to himself and God , in all such things which he may do , and yet hold communion with the Catholick Church ? And therefore afterwards he tells us , That there is one Church divided into many members throughout the world , and one Episcopal office spread abroad , by the consenting multitude of many Bishops . If this Church be one in this sense , and the whole Government of the Church but as one Bishoprick , as all the Bishops unanimously consent in the management of it ; then here is not the least foundation for the Catholick Churches taking its denomination causally from the Roman Church , and much less for the Bishops having dependence on her , or relation to her . Since the care and government of the Church by these words of Cyprian appears to be equally committed to all the Bishops of the Catholick Church . And from thence it was , that in this Epistle we read that St. Cyprian writ to the Church of Rome after the death of Fabianus , to advise them what to do in the case of lapsed persons , which letters of his were sent through the world ; which , Rigaltius well observes , did arise from that unity of Ecclesiastical discipline , whereby Cyprian , not doubting but the care of all Churches was upon him , dispatched these letters to the Clergy at Rome ; from whence they were sent through the Catholick Church , as an evidence that there was but one Episcopal office in the whole Church , part of which was committed in full power to every Bishop . Thus we see a quite different account given of the unity of the Catholick Church than what you from Cardinal Perron would perswade us of . It being an easie matter for men of wit and parts ( especially such as that great Cardinal was master of ) to coyn distinctions to make the most absurd things seem plausible ; but yet when they come to be examined , they are found to have no other bottom but the invention of that person who coined them . And that it is so as to this distinction of the formal , causal , and participative Catholick Church , will be further evident from another case which happened in St. Cyprians time , which was this . Felicissimus and Fortunatus being cast out of communion by a Synod of African Bishops , when they saw they could do little good in Africa , run over to Rome , and bring letters to Cornelius the Bishop there , misrepresenting the whole business of their being ejected out of the Church , on purpose to perswade Cornelius to admit them into communion . Who at first being unwilling to hearken to them , was at last by their threats and menaces brought to receive their letters . Upon which St. Cyprian writes an Epistle to Cornelius , wherein he tells him , That if the threats of such profligate persons should relax the Churches discipline , all the power and strength of it would be soon taken away ; that the ground of all Schism and Heresie arises from disobedience to the Bishop . Certainly he doth not mean the Bishop of Rome , but every Bishop in the Catholick Church ( for it was not Cornelius but Cyprian and the African Bishops who were disobeyed ) upon which he falls upon the matter of their appeal to a forraign Church , and after some fair commendations of the Church of Rome ( the meaning of which will be afterwards examined ) he very sharply condemns these appeals to forraign Churches as unreasonable , unjust , and dishonourable to those Bishops , whose sentence they appealed from . For , What cause ( saith he ) could these persons have of coming and declaring against their Bishops ? For either they are pleased in what they have done , and continue in their wickedness ; or if they are displeased at it and recede from it , they know whither to return . For since it is decreed by us all , and it is a thing just and reasonable in it self , that every ones cause be heard where the fault was committed , and every Pastour hath a part of the flock committed to him , which he is to rule and govern as being to give an account of it to God ; it is requisite that those whom we rule over , ought not to run about , and break the concord of Bishops by their headdiness and subtilty ; but there to defend their cause , where they may have accusers and witnesses of their faults . Vnless it be , that to a few desperate and profligate persons the authority of the Bishops of Africa seems less to them , who have already sate in judgement upon them , and solemnly condemned them lately for their crimes . Can any thing be more express and punctual then this testimony of Cyprian is , to overthrow that sense of the Catholick Church which you contend for ? How farr were Cyprian and the African Bishops from making Rome the center of Ecclesiastical communion , when they looked on appeals thither as very unjust and unreasonable ? What acknowledgement and dependence was there on the Church of Rome in those who looked on themselves as having a portion of Christs flock committed to them , of which they were to give an account to God alone ? And I pray what excellent persons were those who undervalued the Authority of the African Bishops , and ran to Rome ? St. Cyprian tells us , they were pauci , desperati , perditi , and translate these with as much advantage to your cause as you can . So fatal hath it been to Rome even from its first foundation to be a receptacle for such persons . And is not this a great credit to your cause that such persons who were ejected out of communion for their crimes at home , did make their resort to Rome ? and the more pious and stout any Bishops were , the more they defended their own priviledges in opposition to the encroachments of the Roman Sec. Which was apt to take advantage from such Renegado's as these were , by degrees to get more power into her hands , and lift up her head above her fellow-Churches . But , lest you should think that St. Cyprian only spake these things in an heat , out of his opposition to these persons and his desire to crush them , you shall see what his judgement was concerning the same things when he purposely discourseth of them . For in his Book of the Vnity of the Church , he useth that expression which destroyes all your subordinate union in the Church ; which is , Episcopatus unus est , cujus à singulis in solidum pars tenetur . They who consider and understand the importance of that speech , will find nothing more destructive to your doctrine of the Catholick Church then that is . For when he makes the Vniversal Government of the Church to be but one Episcopal office , and that committed in the several parts of it with full power to particular Bishops , can any be so senseless to imagine that he should ever think the Government of the Church in General to depend on any one particular Church as chief over the rest ? And that the former words do really import such a full power in particular Bishops , over that part of the flock which is committed to them , appears from the true importance of the phrase insolidum ; a phrase taken out of the Civil Law where great difference is made between an obligation in partem and in solidum , and so proportionable between a tenure in partem and in solidum : those things were held in solidum which were held in full right and power without payments and acknowledgements . But where the usus-fructus belonged to another , it was not held in solidum . So that when St. Cyprian saith , that every part belonging to each Bishop was held in solidum , he therein imports that full right and power which every Bishop hath over his charge ; and in this speech he compares the Government of the Church to an estate held by several Freeholders , in which every one hath a full right to that share which belongs to him . Whereas according to your principles the Government of the Church is like a Mannor or Lordship , in which the several inhabitants hold at the best but by Copy from the Lord ; and you would fain have it at the will of your Lord too . But thus farr we see St. Cyprian was from your modern notion of the Catholick Church , that he looks on the Vnity of it as depending on the consent of the Catholick Bishops and Churches under their full power , and not deriving that Vnity from any particular Church as the head and fountain of it . And therefore in the former Schism at Rome about Cornelius and Novatianus , St. Cyprian imployed two of his colleagues thither , Caldonius and Fortunatus , that not only by the Letters they carried , but by their presence and Counsel they should do their utmost endeavour to bring the members of that divided body to the unity of the Catholick Church . Which is certainly a very different thing from the Catholick Churche's deriving its Vnity from the particular Church of Rome . Many other instances of a like nature might be produced out of the Reports of St. Cyprians times , but these are sufficient to evidence how far the Vnity of the Catholick Church was then , from depending on the Church of Rome . But , lest we should seem to insist only on St. Cyprians testimony , it were easie to multiply examples in this kind ; which I shall but touch at some of , and proceed . If the Church of Rome then had been looked on as the center of Ecclesiastical communion , is it possible to conceive , that the excommunications of the Church of Rome should be slighted as they were by Polycrates , for which St. Hierome commends him , as a man of courage ? that , Stephen should be opposed as he was by Cyprian and Firmilian in a way so reflecting on the Authority of the Roman Church ? that appeals to Rome should be so severely prohibited by the African Bishops ? that causes should be determined by so many Canons to be heard in their proper Dioceses ? that , when the right of appeals was challenged by the Bishops of Rome , it was wholly upon the account of the imaginary Nicene Canons ? that , when Julius undertook by his sole power to absolve Athanasius , the Oriental Bishops opposed it as irregular on that account , at the Council at Antioch ? that , when afterwards , Paulus , Marcellus , and Lucius repaired to Rome to Julius , and he seeks to restore them , the Eastern Bishops wonder at his offering to restore them who were excommunicated by themselves ? and that as when Novatus was excommunicated at Rome they opposed it not , so neither ought he to oppose their proceedings against these persons . What account can be given of these passages , if the Vnity of the Catholick Church had depended on the particular Church of Rome ? Besides , while the Church of Rome continued regular , we find she looked on her self as much obliged to observe the excommunications made by other Churches , as others were to observe hers . As in the case of Marcion , who being excommunicated by his Father the Bishop of Sinope in Pontus , and by no means prevailing with his Father for his admission into the Church again ; resorts to Rome and with great earnestness begs admission there , where he received this answer ; That they could not do it without the command of his Father ; for there is one Faith and one consent , and we cannot contradict our worthy brother , your Father . This shews the Vnity of the Catholick Church to proceed upon other grounds than the causal influence of the Church of Rome , when the consent of the Church did oblige the Church of Rome , not to repeal the excommunication of a particular Bishop . Upon which ground it was , that Synesius proceeded so high in the letters of excommunication against Andronicus ; that he forbids all the Churches upon earth to receive him into their communion . And withall adds , That if any should contemn his Church because it was of a little City , and should receive those who were condemned by it , as though it were not necessary to obey so poor a Church ; he lets them know that they make a Schism in that Church which Christ would have to be one . We see here , on what equal terms the communion of the Catholick Church then stood : when so small a Church as that of Ptolemais could so farr oblige by her act the Catholick Church that they should be guilty of Schism who admitted them to communion whom she had cast out of it . If Synesius had believed the Church of Rome to have been the center of Ecclesiastical communion , had it not been good manners , nay duty in him to have asked first the pleasure of the Church of Rome in this case , before he had passed so full and definitive a sentence as this was ? But the wise and great men of those ages were utterly strangers to these rare distinctions of a causal , formal , and participative Catholick Church . It is true indeed they did then speak honourably of the Church of Rome in their age as a principal member of the Catholick Church , and having advantages above other Churches by its being fixed in the seat of the Empire , on which account her communion was much desired by other persons . But still we find the persons most apt to extoll her Authority were such as were most obnoxious , who not being able to hold any reputation in their own Churches , where their crimes and scandals were sufficiently known , ran presently to Rome , which was ready still to take their part , thereby to inhance her power : as is most evident in the many disputes which arise upon such accounts between the Roman and African Bishops . But these things we shall have occasion to discuss more particularly afterwards . At the present it may be sufficient by these few ( of very many examples which might be produced ) to have made it appear , that it was farr from being a known and received truth in the ancient Church , that the Church of Rome was the center of Ecclesiastical communion , or that the Church was call'd Catholick from the union with her and dependence upon her . But we must now consider what strenuous proofs you produce for so confident an affirmation : your instances therefore being the most pregnant to your purpose which you could find in Antiquity must be particularly examined : your first is of St. Ambrose , relating that his brother Satyrus going on shore in a certain City of Sardinia ( where he desired to be Baptized ) demanded of the Bishop of that City whether he consented with the Catholick Bishops , that is ( saith he ) with the Roman Church . These words I grant to be in St. Ambrose , but whosoever throughly considers them will find how little they make for your purpose . For which it will be sufficient to look on the following words , which tell us , that at that time there was a Schism in the Church , and Sardinia was the chief seat of it . For Lucifer Caralitanus had newly separated himself from the Church , and had left Societies there which joyned in his Schism . For Caralis was the Metropolis of Sardinia , and it appears by St. Hierome , that the Luciferians confined the Church only to Sardinia , which is the cause of that expression of his ; That Christ did not come meerly for the sake of the Sardinians . So that those Luciferians were much like the Donatists , confining the Church only to their own number . Now there being such a Schism at that time in Sardinia , what did Satyrus any more then enquire whether the Bishop of the place he resorted to was guilty of this Schism or no ? But ( say you ) he made that the tryal whether he was a Catholick or no , by asking whether he agreed with the Church of Rome . To which I answer , that there was very great reason for his particular instancing in the Church of Rome . 1. Because Satyrus was originally of the Church of Rome himself ; for Paulinus in the life of S. Ambrose ( Satyrus his brother ) speaking of him after his consecration to be Bishop , say's , Ad urbem Romam hoc est ad natale solum perrexit , He went to Rome , i. e. to the place of his birth ; now Satyrus being originally a Roman , what wonder is it that he should particularly enquire of the Roman Church ? As suppose one of the Gallican Church of Arles or Vienna should have been cast upon shore in another Island belonging to France at the same time , and understanding there was a Schism in the place , should particularly enquire whether they agreed with the Catholick Bishops , i. e. with the Church of Arles or Vienna , Could you hence inferr that either of these were the center of Ecclesiastical communion , and if not from hence , how can you from the other ? Or suppose , in the time of the Donatists Schism in Africk , a stranger coming accidentally thither and desiring communion with the Christians of that City he was in , should enquire of the Bishop of the City , whether he communicated with the Catholick Bishops , i. e. with the Church of Hippo or Carthage . Could you hence inferr that Hippo was causally the Catholick Church , and if not , with what reason can you do it from so parallel a case ? 2. Because Sardinia did belong to the Metropolitan Province of the Church of Rome ; it being one of the Suburbicarian Provinces under the jurisdiction of the Roman Lieutenant , and consequently one of the Suburbicarian Churches appertaining to the Metropolitan power of the Bishop of Rome : and therefore it was but reason to ask whether the Churches in Sardinia did agree with their Mother Church or no. But all this is very farr from implying that the Vnity of the Catholick Church comes from the particular Church of Rome : on this account , because at that time when the Vnity of the Catholick Church was preserved by that continual correspondence between the parts of it by the formed letters and otherwise , who ever was known to have communion with any one particular Church ( which communicated with the rest ) had thereby communion with the Catholick Church . So that on that account the question might as well have been asked of the Churches of Milan , Agobio , or any other in Italy as of the Church of Rome . For whosoever communicated with any of them did communicate with the Catholick Church , as well as those who did communicate with the Church of Rome . So that your first instance will prove no more the Church of Rome to be the fountain and center of Ecclesiastical communion , then any other particular Church . Your second is , from St. Hieromes saying , That the Church of Alexandria made it her glory to participate of the Roman Faith. But doth it hence follow that the Church of Alexandria was therefore Catholick , because she participated of the Faith of the Roman Church considered as a particular Church ? For , any one who reads that Epistle will easily see , that St. Hierome there speaks of the Roman Faith , not as it proceeds from the Roman Church , but as it was received by it ; and that he doth not understand it of the then present Roman Faith , any further then it agreed with that Faith which the Apostle commended in them . So that the utmost which can be extracted out of this testimony , is , that it was the glory of the Church of Alexandria to hold the same Faith which the Primitive Roman Church did , for which the Apostle commended it . Which is apparent by the design of the whole Epistle , which is to encourage Theophilus the Patriarch of Alexandria to suppress the Nefarions Heresie ( as he calls it ) of the Origenists ; for , it seems , Theophilus then dealt more mildly with them , which Hierome was displeased at . And therefore tells him , that although he took some care by the discipline of the Church to reduce them , yet that was not enough , and thence brings in these words ; But withall know , that nothing is more our design then to preserve the rights of Christ , and not to transgress the bounds of our Fathers , and alwayes to remember the Roman Faith , commended by the mouth of the Apostle , which it is the glory of the Church of Alexandria that she is a partaker of . If you had dealt so fairly as to have cited St. Hieromes words at large , any one might easily see how remote they were from your purpose ; it being manifest by them , that St. Hieromes only design was ; To perswade Theophilus to assert the ancient Faith against the incroachments of modern Heresies ; and , to incourage him to it , mentions that commendation which was given to the ancient Faith by the Apostle writing to the Romans upon their receiving it ; and therefore since the same Faith was in the Church of Alexandria which the Romans were commended for receiving of , Theophilus ought to be a vigorous assertor of it , against the oppositions of Hereticks . But how from hence we should inferr that the Church of Rome was the fountain of Faith as well as center of communion , is a thing we are yet to seek for , till you further direct us . Yet , it may be , the strength of it lyes in this , That the Roman Faith was commended by the Apostle . And was not the Faith of other Churches where it was pure , commended as well as that ? And although the Fathers in their complemental addresses to the Church of Rome were pleased often to mention this , That the Roman Faith was praised by the apostle ; yet , as Rigaltius well observes , That the Latin Fathers took those words of the Apostle , as though their Faith were more pure and sincere then in other places ; whereas the Apostle only saith , that he gave thanks to God that there was such a fame abroad , that the Romans who swayed the world , had embraced the Christian Faith. Which by reason of the dignity of the City which was head of the world , and Empress of Nations , did conduce much to the propagation of the Christian Faith. For that there was no peculiar excellency in the Roman Faith above the Faith of other Churches , appears from the scope of this Epistle which was to instruct and settle them in the right Faith and from the testimonies of the Author of the Commentaries under St. Ambrose's name , and St. Hierome himself . The former tells us , The reason why St. Paul commended their Faith , was , Because though they saw no miracles yet they believed , though not so purely as they ought to have done . And afterwards saith , That St. Paul commends their Faith although it were not exact according to rule , yet since by that they came to worship God in Christ he rejoyceth in it , knowing they might increase more in it . And St. Hierome elsewhere speaking without design or interest , saith , Not that the Romans have any other kind of Faith then what all other Churches have ; but that there was greater devotion and simplicity in believing . And withall adds , that the very same faults which the Apostle condemned them for then , did continue still among them , the greatest of which was Pride . And if this present Controversie do not make good St. Hieromes observation till this time , we are strangely mistaken : for what greater Pride can there be , than for any particular Church to arrogate the title of Catholick to her self , and to make all others no farther Catholick then they participate of her Faith and Communion ? Your next Testimony is that of John , the Patriarch of Constantinople , who did in his Epistle to Hormisda , judge those to be severed from the communion of the Catholick Church , who did not consent in all things with the See Apostolick : but the main force of your testimonies lyes in a presumption that men will never take the pains to examine them . We must therefore consider the occasion and manner of the writing this Epistle ; for those words you cite , are not the words of the Patriarch himself , but of the form of subscription required by Hormisda in order to an Vnion of the Eastern and Western Churches ; which had been then a long time in a Schism . For after that Acacius stood up so resolutely in defence of the rights of his See at Constantinople , the Roman Bishops ( who made it then their design to infringe the liberties of other Churches the better to inhance their own ) would by no means admit of any reconciliation unless the names of Acacius , and those who defended him in that See being his Successours , as Phravita , Euphemius , Macedonius , &c. were expunged out of the Diptychs of the Church ; which being so unjust and unreasonable a demand , for a long time the Patriarchs of Constantinople would by no means assent to it . But after the death of the Emperour Anastasius , Justin succeeds in the throne , one who made it his business to have this breach made up ; in order to which he writes to Hormisda , and earnestly perswades him to a reconciliation ; and so likewise doth the Patriarch John. But it hath been the common practise of the Bishops of that Church , to be therein unlike the unjust Judge , that they will not be wrought on by importunities ; but have been the more implacable , the more they have been sought to : as it appeared in this present case . For this soure and inflexible Pope would not yield to any terms of Vnion , but upon conditions of his own prescribing , which were , the expunging of Acacius , and subscribing that form which he sent to them . Which when the Emperour and Patriarch saw , though they were sufficiently displeased at it , yet out of their greedy desire of peace , they were contented rather to swallow these hard conditions than suffer the Schism to remain still . Now it is in this form of subscription that these words are contained , wherein they promise , not to recite the names of those in the sacred mysteries , who are severed from the communion of the Catholick Church , i. e. who consent not in all things with the See Apostolick . But lest these words being thus inserted by the Pope himself , should be interpreted to the disadvantage of other Churches , and particularly that of Constantinople ; The Patriarch makes a Preface to that Subscription by way of Protestation ; wherein after declaring the reception of the Popes letters , and congratulating the hopes of Vnion , he manifests his own desire of peace , and his willingness to refuse the communion of all Hereticks . For , saith he , I look on those most holy Churches of your elder and our new Rome , as both making but one Church . And after , declaring his assent to the decrees of the four General Councils , he adds , That those who opposed them he judged fallen off , à Sanct â Dei generali & Apostolicâ Ecclesiâ , from the holy Catholick and Apostolick Church . Now when the Patriarch was thus careful to explain himself , so as to assert that the Church of Rome , and that of Constantinople , made but one Church , when he adds what he means by the Catholick Church , viz. the truely General and Apostolical Church ; inferr as much from Hormisda's words as you will , I am sure you can do little to your purpose from the Patriarchs , taking them in the sense he explains himself in , by this Protestation . So that the meaning of them is only this , that as he judged the Church of Rome a member of the Catholick Church ( whose Vnity required , that those who were out of communion in one Church should be so with the rest ) so he consented to acknowledge them justly excommunicated whom the Church of Rome would have to be so . So that hence nothing ariseth to your purpose , more then will equally advance the authority of any other particular Church ; whose excommunications did oblige the whole Church , as we have seen already in the case of Sinope and Ptolemais . You proceed to another Testimony of St. Austin addressing himself to the Donatists , telling them , That the succession of the Roman Bishops is the rock which the proud gates of Hell overcome not , thereby insinuating , that the very succession of those Bishops is in some true sense the Catholick Church . But from whence doth it appear that the succession of the Roman Bishops is the Rock here spoken of ? For St. Austin was there arguing against the Donatists and shewing them the danger of being separated from the unity of the Catholick Church ; that if they were cut off from the vine , they would wither and be in danger to be cast into the fire ; and therefore exhorts them , to come and be planted into the vine , it being a grief to them to see them cut off . Now in order to this , he brings in the former words to acquaint them with the way , whereby they might better understand the Catholick Church , which could not in reason be confined to their own age , but must be derived from the Apostles . So that his counsel is of the same nature with that of Tertullian and Irenaeus , who put men upon a diligent search into the successions of the Apostolical Churches . But now when by this search they have found out the Catholick Church , he tells them , That is the Rock which the proud gates of hell cannot overcome . For so elsewhere St. Austin calls the Catholick Church a Rock , as he calls it likewise a House , and a City , in several places of these disputations against the Donatists . As here before he calls it the Vine , from whence all who are cut off wither and dye : But what is all this to the particular Church of Rome ; which none of the Disputes with the Donatists at all concerned ? As is fully manifest from the whole management of that Controversie ; in which though he was so much put upon shewing what and where the Catholick Church was , yet he never once expressed any such thing , as that the Church was called Catholick from any relation to the Church of Rome , but still mentions it as a particular Church , which with other Churches made up one Catholick Church . So in his Commentaries on the 44. Psalm : Behold Rome , saith he , behold Carthage , behold several other Cities ; these are Kings daughters and have delighted the King in his honour , but they all make up but one Queen . How incongruous had this expression been , had St. Austin believed the Roman Church to be so much above all others , that the ground why any others were called Catholick , was from their union with her ; and therefore he must according to your principles have saluted the Church of Rome as the Queen of all the rest , and made other particular Churches but as her daughters and hand-maids . But St. Austin knew of no such difference , but looked on all particular Churches , whether at Rome , Carthage , or elsewhere , as making up but one Catholick Church . And to the same purpose he frequently speaks , when he sayes , That the Church is call'd One in regard of her Vnity , and Many in regard from the several Societies of Christians abroad in the world ; When he calls the several Churches , members of that one Church which is spread all over the world , without setting any note of discrimination upon one above all the rest ; When he reckons the Roman , Corinthian , Galatian , Ephesian Churches together , and that all these and the Churches propagated from them , do conspire in one Vniversal Church . But the places are so many to this purpose in him , that it would look too much like ostentation to offer to prove a matter so evident to all that read any thing in him . And is it possible then for you to think That St. Austin made the succession of Bishops at Rome in any sense the Catholick Church ? You might as well say , that he made the Church spread all over the world a particular Church , as that he made any particular Church whether at Rome or elsewhere ( for he makes no difference ) to be in any sense the Vniversal Church . But that which you seem to lay the greatest force on , is the testimony of Optatus Milevitanus , Who , say you , after he had said that St. Peter was head of all the Apostles ; and that he would have been a Schismatick , who should have erected another chair against that singular one of St. Peter , as also that in that chair of St. Peter being but one , Vnity was to be kept by all ; he adds that with Syricius then Pope he himself was united in communion , with whom the whole world ( saith he , meaning the whole Catholick Church ) agrees by communicatory letters in one Society of communion ; See here ( say you ) how clearly he makes the union with the Bishop of Rome the measure of the Catholick Church ; which the Bishop calls a Jesuitism , and further proves himself to be in the Catholick Church , because he was in communion with the See of St. Peter . For our better understanding the meaning of these words of Optatus , we must consider the state of the Controversie between Optatus and Parmenianus , by which it will appear , how very little these words of his make to your purpose . The main question between the Catholicks and the Donatists was , about the Catholick Church , To whom it was that title did belong . The difficulty seemed the greater , because there was no difference between them in any matter of Faith , or in the substance of the Sacraments , and therefore they were fain to find out other means to decide this Controversie , than by either of those two . For which the Catholicks made choice of these two arguments Vniversality and Succession , the former as agreeing with that large spread of the Church which was Prophesied to be in the times of the Gospel , whereas the Donatists confined the Church to a Corner in Africa : the latter in regard of the necessity of deriving themselves from the Apostolical Churches . Now the Donatists denying any but themselves to be the Catholick Church , the proof lay on their Adversaries part , who upon all occasions offer to make it good , That the Church from which the Donatists separated themselves , was the only true and Catholick Church . Accordingly Optatus having in the first book discussed the matters of fact about the rise of the Schism , the ordinations of Cecilian and Majorinus , and the proceedings used for the ending the Schism , in this second Book he enters on the Controversie of the Church which Parmenianus would have to be only among themselves ; against which he urgeth first , that then certainly the Church could not be called Catholick , because it was so called from its large comprehension and universal spread . Had Optatus believed , the ground of the Churches being Catholick had been its union with the Church of Rome , he would never have given that account of its being called so , which here he doth . After which he produceth many places of Scripture to prove the large extent of the Church , and concludes , That to be the Catholick Church which was diffused over all the world , than which nothing can be more contrary to your pretensions , who limit and confine the Catholick Church to your own party as the Donatists did . And if those arguments then used against the Donatists had any force against them , they have still as much against you , who exclude so great and considerable Churches from being members of the Catholick Church because not of your communion . From hence Optatus proceeds to examine , Which had the better title to be the Catholick Church on the account of Succession ; and Parmenianus reckoning the Cathedra in the first of the dotes Ecclesiae , Optatus begins with that by which is understood the lawful derivation of power for governing the Church , so Albaspinaeus , ( as well as others ) understands it . Now the Controversie was , where this Cathedra was . Optatus proves , there can be no lawful power but what is derived from the Apostles , and therefore where the succession is plain and uninterrupted , there and no where else can that Cathedra be . Which Episcopal chair being first placed at Rome by St. Peter , in which he as chief of the Apostles sate , from whence he had his name Cephas ; in which one chair Vnity should be kept by all ; lest the other Apostles should set up others against it ; so that he must be a schismatick and offender , who should place another chair against that . Therefore in this one chair St. Peter sate first , to whom succeeded Linus , to him Clemens and so on to Syricius who joyns with us , with whom the whole world communicates by the entercourse of formed letters . Do you now give an account of your chair , who challenge to your selves the name of the Holy Church . To pass by that ridiculous account of the name Cephas , which Baldwin supposes to be inserted into the text from some ignorant gloss made in the margin , the main thing to be considered , is the scope and design of these words ; in which he doth two things , 1. He shews the evident succession of the Catholick Bishops from St. Peter in the Church of Rome , which he doth by a distinct and particular enumeration of them . 2. From thence shews the unlawfulness of setting up another chair in opposition to that , i. e. pretending to another right of Government then what was conveyed down from the Apostles ; or setting up another chair in opposition to that of St. Peter at Rome , i. e. that succession of Bishops which was derived from him . Now , saith he , God providing for the unity of the Church , intended there should be but one chair in a place , i. e. that the several Apostles should not in the same place set up a distinct Cathedra or succession of Church-Governours , and therefore though St. Paul as well as St. Peter were instrumental in the settling the Church of Rome , yet , that the Churches Vnity might be preserved , there were not two distinct series of Bishops , the one deriving from St. Peter and the other from St. Paul. So that Optatus his saying is much of the same nature with that of Cyprian in the case of the Schism about Cornelius and Novatianus , who urgeth that most , That there ought to be but one Bishop in one Church , now the Bishop and his Cathedra are correlates to each other . Optatus therefore saying that there was but one Cathedra at Rome , puts the Donatist's upon this issue , that if they could not deduce their succession from St. Peter at Rome , they could have no pretence to the Cathedra there . And therefore challengeth them to deduce the succession of their Bishops there , as at large appears in his following discourse . Which could be no higher then of Macrobius from Encolpius , Encolpius from Bonifacius Ballitanus , as he from Victor Garbiensis , who was sent over on purpose from the Donatists in Africk to make a faction and a party at Rome , among the African Inhabitants there . Now this being the utmost succession , they could pretend to , and that being in opposition to that succession which was derived from St. Peter , nothing could be more plain then that at Rome ( about which the Contest was ) the Cathedra could not belong to the Donatists but their Adversaries ; and therefore that being by Parmenianus acknowledged one of the dowries of the Catholick Church , the title of that could not belong to the Donatists but their opposers . This therefore doth not at all concern Romes being causally the Catholick Church , but is only produced as a particular Church for a known instance whereby to decide this particular Controversie of succession . For otherwise the argument would have held as well for any other Apostolical Church where the succession was clear : And therefore afterwards he makes the communion with the seven Churches as plain an argument of communion with the Catholick , as he doth here of the Church of Rome . You may therefore every jot as well make the seven Churches of Asia , to be causally the Catholick Church , as the Church of Rome . And to the same purpose he instanceth in the Corinthian , Thessalonian , Galatian Churches , as he doth in that of Rome , or the seven Churches . We see then , Optatus his design was to shew that their Church from which the Donatists separated , was the true Catholick Church , which he proves from their communion with all the Apostolical Churches , which had a clear and distinct succession from the Apostles their planters . And because of the Vicinity and Fame of Rome , and the easier knowing the succession there , he instanceth in that in the first place , and then proceeds to the rest of them . But withall , to shew the Vnity of all these Apostolical Churches , when he had mentioned Siricius as the present Bishop of Rome , he adds , That all the world agreed with him in the entercourse of the formed Letters ; not thereby intimating any supremacy of that Church above others , but to shew that that succession he instanceth in at Rome , was of the Catholick Church , because the whole Christian world , did agree in Communion with him that was the Bishop there . And when he speaks of one chair , it is plain , he means it of the particular Church of Rome , because every Apostolical Church had an Apostolical Chair belonging to it . So Tertullian expresly , That in all the Apostolical Churches there were their Chairs still remaining . And Eusebius particularly mentions the Apostolical Throne or Chair at Hierusalem , as others do that of Mark at Alexandria , and of the rest elsewhere . Nothing then can possibly be inferred from these words of Optatus concerning the Church of Rome , but what would equally hold for any other Apostolical Church , and how much that is , let the Reader judge : And how much soever it be , it will be very little for your advantage , who pretend to something peculiar to the Church of Rome above all other Churches . From Optatus you proceed , or rather return to S. Hierom , who , ( say you ) professes the Church is built upon S. Peter 's See , and that whoever eats the Lamb , that is , pretends to believe in Christ , and partakes of the Sacraments out of that house , that is , out of the communion of that Church , is prophane , and an Alien ; yea , that he belongs to Antichrist , and not to Christ , whoever consents not with the successor of S. Peter . This Testimony sounds big and high at first , and I shall not impute these expressions either to S. Hierome's heat , or his flattery , although it looks the more suspicious , because at that time he had so great a pique against the Eastern Bishops , and that these words are contained in a complemental address to Damasus . But , setting aside what advantages might be gained on that account , to weaken the force of this Testimony , if we consider the occasion or nature of these expressions , we shall find that they reach not the purpose you design them for . We must therefore consider , that at the time of the writing this Epistle , S. Hierom seems to be in a great perplexity what to do in that division which was then in the Church of Antioch , concerning Paulinus , Vitalis , and Miletius ; but besides this Schism , it seems S. Hierom suspected some remainders of Arrianism to be still among them ; from their demanding of him , Whether he acknowledged three distinct hypostases in the Trinity . Now S. Hierom by hypostasis understands the essence , as many of the Greek Fathers did ; and thence the Sardian Council defined , That there was but one hypostasis of the Father , Son , and Spirit ; and therefore he suspects , that when they require of him the acknowledgement of three hypostases , they might design to entrap him , and unawares betray him into Arrianism . And therefore argues stifly in the remainder of that Epistle , that hypostasis properly signifies essence , and nothing else ; and from thence urgeth the inconvenience of admitting the terms of three hypostases . Now S. Hierom being thus set upon by these Eastern Bishops , he keeps off from communion with them , and adviseth with the Aegyptian Confessors , and follows them at present ; but having received his Baptism in the Church of Rome , and being looked on as a Roman where he was , he thought it necessary to address himself to Pope Damasus , to know what he should do in this case . And the rather , because if S. Hierom had consented with them , they would have looked on it as an evidence of the agreement of the Roman Church with them . Therefore he so earnestly and importunately writes to Damasus concerning it , as being originally part of his charge , having been baptized in that Church . But ( say you ) whatever the occasion of the words were , Is it not plain , that he makes the Church to be built on S. Peter's See , and that whosoever is out of the communion of that Church , is an Alien , and belongs to Antichrist ? To that therefore I answer , 1. That he doth not say , that the Catholick Church is built on the particular Church of Rome : for it is not , super hanc Petram , as referring to the Cathedra immediately preceding ; but , super illam , and therefore it is not improbably supposed by some , that the Rock here referrs to Christ. And , although Erasmus doth imagine , that some particular priviledge and dignity did belong to Rome above other Churches from this place ( which is not the thing we contend about ) yet withall he sayes , that by the Rock we must not understand Rome ; for that may degenerate , but we must understand that Faith which Peter professed . And it is a much easier matter for Marianus Victorius , to tell him , he lyes , as he doth here in plain terms , than to be able to confute what he saith . And that the rather , because he begins his discourse in that manner , Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens , whereby he attributes the supreme power , and infallible judgement in the Church only to Christ. For , as for your learned correction of praemium for primum , though you follow Cardinal Perron in it , yet it is without any probability at all , it being contrary to all the MSS. used by Erasmus , Victorius , Gravius , Possevin , and others ; and hath no authority to vouch it , but only Gratian , who is condemned by your own Writers , for a falsifier and corrupter of Authours . 2. I answer , when S. Hierom pronounces those Aliens and prophane , who are out of the communion of the Church ; either it belongs not to the particular Church of Rome , or , if it doth , it makes not much for your purpose . 1. There is no certainty that he there speaks of the particular Church of Rome , but that he rather speaks of the true Vniversal Church ; for it is plain , he speaks of that Church which is built upon the Rock , now by your own confession , that cannot be the Church of Rome , for that you suppose to be the Rock , it self , viz. the See of Peter , and therefore the Church built upon it , must be the Vniversal Church . And that this must be his meaning , appears from his plain words , for , he saith , Vpon that Rock the Church is built , and whosoever eats the Lamb without this house , is prophane ; — he cannot certainly mean , Whosoever eats without the Rock , but without the house built upon it ; so that the house in the latter clause must needs be the same with that which was built on the Rock in the former . Either therefore you must deny the See of Peter to be the Rock , or you must of necessity assert the house built upon it to be the Vniversal Church , and not the particular one of Rome ; and consequently the danger lyes not upon mens not being in communion with the Roman , but with the truly Catholick Church . And how from hence you will inferr , That they are prophane who are out of the Roman Church ; it would be worth our while to understand . 2. Suppose I should grant , that S. Hierom did mean the particular Church of Rome , yet I am not satisfied , that this comes home to your purpose , unless you could prove , that S. Hierom spake of what was necessarily and unalterably to be in the Church of Rome , and not meerly of what was in that time , when he spake these words . But that is your perpetual Paralogism in the citations of the Fathers , in praise of the Church of Rome , what they spake , and it may be deservedly of the Church of their own time ( although sometimes their Rhetorick swell'd too high in their Encomiasticks ) that you will needs have to be understood of the same Church at all times , and in our present age . As though it were not possible for a Church to be eminent for purity of Doctrine in one age , and to decline as much from it in another . But I need give no other instance in this case , than S. Hierom himself , for if we believe S. Hierom in his Catalogue , the two immediate predecessors of Damasus , in the See of Rome , Liberius , and Felix were tainted with Heresie ; and that very Heresie , viz. Arrianism , which S. Hierom writes to Damasus about now . I pray , tell us then , Whether if S. Hierom had lived in Liberius his time , would he have writ to him after the same rate he now writes to Damasus ; if he had been of the same mind then , he would have been so farr from scrupling the three hypostases , that he must have subscribed the Arrian confession , as S. Hierom tells us , Liberius did , through the instigation of Fortunatianus . And therefore to let us see , on what account he was now so liberal in his commendations of the Church of Rome , he begins this Epistle with the praise of her present orthodoxness in the Catholick Faith , And that amongst all the divisions and breaches of the Eastern Churches they preserved the Faith of their Fore-fathers entire . That now the Sun of Righteousness rises in the West ; but that Lucifer , who fell , now reigns in the East ; with many expressions to the same purpose . Which supposition being granted true at that time , that which follows inferrs very little to your purpose , unless you can prove , that what was so then , must necessarily continue so in all ages . If the East was then corrupted , and the West only sound , what praises belonged to the Catholick Church in general , did of right devolve to that part which remained sound in the opinion of those persons who judged so . You would needs therefore from hence have your Church accounted Catholick now , by the same argument that Tully said ( of the Roman Lady , who still affirmed , she was but thirty years of age ) that he believed it , for he had heard her say so twenty years before ; so must we believe your Church sound and Catholick ▪ because it was said so of her so many hundred years since ; as though no infirmities or wrinkles could have come upon her ever since . Prove your Church to be as sound and orthodox , as pure and holy now , as she was in the primitive Fathers time , and we will not grudge her the highest of those commendations which were given her by them . But , without doing this , your Testimonies come to nothing . The same Answer will serve the remaining Testimonies of Eulalius , and the Emperour Gratian , who only spake of the communion of the Church of Rome , as it was then : That of Fulgentius stiling the Roman Church , The top of the world , only imports the eminency of it , in regard of the power of that City it was in , and so is wide enough from your purpose . Thus we have considered all that you have produced out of Antiquity , to prove that the Church is called Catholick , with a particular relation to , and dependence of the Church of Rome ; and can find nothing at all belonging to her , as the center of Catholicism , but that those things which are said of her , and communion with her , in relation to being called Catholick , might as well have agreed with any other Apostolical Church remaining sound in the Catholick Faith. Hence it appears , that what his Lordship is pleased to term , a perfect Jesuitism , viz. the measuring the Catholick Church , by that of Rome , is really nothing else , and that the perfect mistake belongs to you , who assert , that it was a received and known Truth in the Ancient Church . Your vindication of the propriety of your Churches being called the Roman Catholick Church , from the Roman Empire , and the Jewish Church would then signifie something , when you have proved that the Pope hath as much the Government of the Church , as the Roman-Emperour had of all the Provinces within the confines of the Empire , or that we are all bound as much to resort to Rome , as the Jews were to Jerusalem for the solemn worship of God. In the mean time the absurdity is never the less for being vulgar , in calling yours , The Roman Catholick Church . And yet , as though you had been only demonstrating these things , you tell us very magisterially , The truth is , in all doubts concerning matter of Doctrine , recourse is to be had to S. Peter 's successor , who ( at least with a General Council ) can infallibly resolve all difficulties . An excellent way of proving , to say , The truth is ! Might not I as well say , The truth is , the Pope neither in Council , nor out of it hath any Infallibility at all ? And would not this be full as good an Answer as yours is an Argument ? but the very truth is , you had rather have these things believed , than go about to prove them ; least the weakness of the arguments should lay too much open your fond pretence of Infallibility . Before you prove , That the Pope can carry his Infallibility out of Rome with him , shew us that he hath it there . I grant S. Peter had been infallible , though he had never been at Rome ; and it is far from being clear , that the Pope is at all the more infallible for his being there . How far you have been from proving , That the Faith of every particular Church is to be examined and proved to be Catholick by its conformity to the Faith of the Roman Church , may abundantly appear from the preceding discourse . Those Questions , which you say , make nothing to your purpose concerning the Popes transferring his chair at Rome , and the Roman Clergies deserting him and the true Faith : I shall so far believe you in , as to ease my self of the trouble of considering them any further than hath been done already in the very entrance into this Conference . And here , you tell us , You now come to perform your Promise , viz. to examine more fully his Lordships pretended solutions ( as you call them ) of Bellarmine 's authorities in behalf of the Infallibility of the Church of Rome . But for all your boasting at first , what great things you would do , you seem a little fearful of engaging too far , and therefore are resolved only to maintain them in general , as they make for the Infallible Authority of the Church , or of the Pope defining Articles of Faith in a General Council . But , as far as you dare go , I shall attend your motions , and doubt not to make it evident , that none of these authorities have any reference to that sense , which you only offer to maintain them in , and that though they had , yet no such thing as Infallibility can be proved out of them . The first authority is out of S. Cyprian's Letter to Cornelius Bishop of Rome , whose words I am contented should be recited as fully as may be ; In which he chargeth Felicissimus and Fortunatus with their complices , that having set up a Bishop against him at Carthage , they sail to the chair of Peter , and the principal Church from whence the sacerdotal Vnity had its rise , and carry Letters from prophane and Schismatical persons , not considering that the Romans ( whose Faith was commended by the Apostle ) were such to whom perfidiousness could not have access . Now the meaning of this place you would have to be this , and no other , viz. that the See of S. Peter , which is the principal of all Churches , was so infallibly directed by the Holy Ghost , that no errour in Faith could have access to it , or be admitted by it ▪ if not as a particular Church , yet at least as the Head of the Vniversal Church of Christ , and as the Fountain of Priestly Vnity ; which S. Cyprian here expresly affirms that Church and See to be . This you summe up at last , as the most which can be made of this Testimony ; and which is indeed far more in all particulars than it can amount to . Which will appear by particular examinations of what you return in answer to his Lordship . Three things his Lordship answers to this place . 1. That perfidia can hardly stand here for errour in Faith ; and if so then this can make nothing for Infallibility . 2. That supposing it granted to signifie errour in Faith and Doctrine , yet it belongs not to the Romans absolutely , but with a respect to those first Romans whose Faith was commended by the Apostle . 3. That it seems to be rather a Rhetorical insinuation , than a dogmatical assertion . And that S. Cyprian could not be supposed to assert herein the Popes Infallibility , appears by the contracts between him and the Bishops of Rome . This is the short of his Lordships answers to this place , to which we must consider what you reply . 1. His Lordship sayes , That perfidia can hardly stand for errour in Faith or misbelief , but it properly signifies malicious falshood in matter of trust and action , not error in Faith , but in fact against the discipline and Government of the Church . And to make this interpretation appear the more probable , his Lordship gives an account of the story which was the occasion of writing that Epistle , which is this , as his Lordship reports it from Binius and Baronius ; In the year 255. there was a Council in Carthage in the cause of two Schismaticks , Felicissimus and Novatian , about restoring of them to the communion of the Church , which had lapsed in time of danger from Christianity to Idolatry . Felicissimus would admit all even without penance , and Novatian would admit none , no not after penance . The Fathers 42 in number went , as Truth led them , between both extreams . To this Council came Privatus a known Heretick , but was not admitted because he was formerly excommunicated , and often condemned . Hereupon he gathers his Complices together , and chooses one Fortunatus ( who was formerly condemned as well as himself ) Bishop of Carthage , and set him up against St. Cyprian . This done Felicissimus and his Fellows haste to Rome with letters testimonial from their own party , and pretend that 25 Bishops concurred with them : and their desire was to be received into the communion of the Roman Church , and to have their new Bishop acknowledged . Cornelius then Pope , though their haste had now prevented St. Cyprians letters , having formerly heard from him , both of them , and their Schism in Africk would neither hear them , nor receive their letters . They grew insolent and furious ( the ordinary way that Schismaticks take ) . Vpon this Cornelius writes to St. Cyprian ▪ and St. Cyprian in this Epistle gives Cornelius thanks , for refusing these African fugitives , declares their Schism and wickedness at large , and encourages him and all Bishops to maintain the Ecclesiastical Discipline , and censures against any the boldest threatnings of wicked Schismaticks . This being the story , his Lordship sayes , He would fain know why perfidia ( all circumstances considered ) may not stand here in its proper sense for cunning and perfidious dealing , which these men having practised at Carthage , thought now to obtrude upon the Bishop of Rome also , but that he was wary enough not to be over-reached by busie Schismaticks ? This demand of his Lordship seeming very just and reasonable we are bound to consider what reasons you give , why perfidia must be understood for errour in Faith and not in the sense here mentioned . Why calls he ( say you ) St. Peters chair , Ecclesiam principalem ( the chief Church ) but because it is the head to which all other Churches must be subordinate in matter of doctrine ? the words following signifie as much , Unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est , from which chair of St. Peter as it were from its fountain , unity in Priesthood and consequently unity in Faith is derived . Why brings he the Apostle as Panegyrist of the Roman Faith ? Is it forsooth , because no malicious falshood in matter of trust or errour in fact against the Discipline and Government of the Church can have access unto them , as the Bishop will needs misinterpret the place ? or rather because no errour in Faith can approach the See Apostolick ? Certain it is perfidia in this sense , is diametrically opposed to the Faith of the Romans immediately before commended by the Apostle ( which was true Christian Faith ) and consequently it must of necessity be taken for the quite contrary , viz. misbelief or errour in Faith. Three Arguments in these words you produce , why perfidia must be understood of errour in Faith. 1. Because the Church of Rome is called the chief Church ; but is it not possible it should be called so in any other sense , but as the head of all other Churches in matter of doctrine ? Is it not sufficiently clear from Antiquity , that there were other accounts of calling the Church of Rome the chief or principal Church , as the eminency of it joyned with the power of the City ( the potentior principalitas in Irenaeus ) which advanced its reputation to the height it was then at ? What matters of doctrine do you find brought to the Church of Rome to be Infallibly decided there in St. Cyprians time ? how little did St. Cyprian believe this , when he so vehemently opposed the judgement of Stephen Bishop of Rome in the case of rebaptization ? Doth he write , speak , or carry himself in that Controversie like one that owned that Church of Rome to be head of all other Churches , to which they must be subordinate in matter of doctrine ? Nay in the very next words St. Cyprian argues against appeals to Rome , and is it possible then to think , that in these words he should give such an absolute power and authority to it ? And therefore any one who would reconcile St. Cyprian to himself must by those words of Ecclesia principalis only understand the dignity and eminency , and not the power , much less the Infallibility of the Church of Rome . And no more is implyed in the Second , That it is said to be the fountain of Sacerdotal Vnity , which some think may probably referr to the Priesthood of the Church of Africk , which had its rise from the Church of Rome , as appears by Tertullian and others , in which sense he might very well say , that the Vnity of the Priesthood did spring from thence ; or if it be taken in a more large and comprehensive sense it can import no more then that the Church of Rome was owned as the Principium Vnitatis , which certainly is a very different thing from an infallible judgement in matters of Faith. For what connexion is there between Vnity in Government , and Infallibility in Faith ? Suppose the Church of Rome should be owned as the principal Member of the Catholick Church , and therefore that the Vnity of the Church should begin there in regard of the dignity of it , doth it thence follow that there must be an absolute subordination of all other Churches to it ? Nothing then can be inferr'd from either of those particulars , that by perfidia , errour in Faith must be understood , taking those two expressions in the most favourable sense that can be put upon them . But considering the present state of the Church of Rome at the time when Felicissimus and Fortunatus came thither , I am apt to think another interpretation more probable than either of the foregoing . For which we must remember that there was a Schism at Rome between Novatianus and Cornelius , the former challenging to be Bishop there , as well as the latter , upon which a great breach was made among them . Now these persons going out of Africa to Rome , that they might manage their business with the more advantage , address themselves to Cornelius and his party ; upon which St. Cyprian saith , Navigare audent ad Petri Cathedram atque ad Ecclesiam principalem , unde Vnitas sacerdotalis exorta est , thereby expressing their confidence that they not only went to Rome , but when they were there , they did not presently side with the Schismatical party of the Novatians there , but as though they had been true Catholicks , they go to Cornelius , who , being the legal successour of St. Peter in opposition to Novatianus , calls his See the chair of St. Peter , and the principal Church , and the spring of the Vnity of the Priesthood ; because the contrary party of Novatianus had been the cause of all the Schism and disunion which had been among them . And in this sense which seems very agreeable to St. Cyprians words and design , we may easily understand what this perfidia was , viz. that falseness and perfidious dealing of these persons , that although they were Schismaticks themselves , yet they were so farr from seeming so at their coming to Rome , that as though they had been very good Catholicks , they seek to joyn in communion with Cornelius and the Catholick party with him . By which we see what little probability there is from those expressions that perfidia must be taken , for an errour in Faith. But , 3. You say , To what purpose else doth he mention St. Pauls commendation of their Faith , if this perfidia were not immediately opposite to it ? But then inform us what part of that Apostolical Faith was it , which Felicissimus and Fortunatus sought to violate at Rome ? It is apparent their whole design was to be admitted into communion with the Church of Rome ( which in all probability is that access here spoken of ) : if therefore this perfidia imported some errour in Faith , it must be some errour broached by those particular persons as contrary to the old Roman Faith which was extold by the Apostle . And although these persons might be guilty of errours , yet the ground of their going to Rome , was not upon any matter of Doctrine , whereby they sought to corrupt the Church of Rome , but in order to the justifying of their Schism , by being admitted into the communion of that Church . Notwithstanding then any thing you have produced to the contrary , there is no necessity of understanding perfidia , for an errour in matter of Faith. And St. Cyprians mentioning the praise given to the Romans for their Faith by the Apostle , was not to shew the opposition between that and the perfidia as an errour in Faith , but that being the greatest Elogium of the Church of Rome extant in Scripture , he thought it now most convenient to use it , the better to engage Cornelius to oppose the proceedings of the Schismaticks there . Although withall , I suppose St. Cyprian might give him some taste of his old office , of a Rhetorician in the allusion between fides and perfidia , without ever intending that perfidia should be taken in any other sense then what was proper to the cause in hand . You having effected so little in the solution of his Lordships first answer , you have little cause to boast in your following words , That hence his other explication also vanishes into smoak , viz. when he asserts that Perfidia non potest may be taken hyperbolically for non facile potest ; because this interpretation suits not with those high Elogiums given by St. Cyprian to the Roman Church , as being the principal Church , the Church whence Vnity of Faith and Discipline is derived to all other Christian Churches . If you indeed may have the liberty to interpret St. Cyprians words as you please , by adding such things to them , of which there is no intimation in what he saith , you may make what you please unsuitable to them . For although he calls it the principal Church , from whence the Vnity of the Priesthood is sprung ; yet what is this to the Vnity of Faith and Discipline as derived from thence to all other Churches , as you would perswade the unwary reader that these were St. Cyprians words , which are only your groundless interpretation of them . And therefore there is no such improbability in what his Lordship sayes , That this may be only a Rhetorical excess of speech , in which St. Cyprian may laudando praecipere , by commending them to be such , instruct them that such indeed they ought to be , to whom perfidiousness should not get access . And for this he instanceth in such another Rhetorical expression of Synesius to Theophilus of Alexandria , wherein he tells him that he ought to esteem what his Throne should determine as an Oracle or Divine Law. And certainly this comes nearer Infallibility than that of St. Cyprian doth . But what inconveniency there should be , that St. Cyprian by this interpretation should give no more prerogative to the Church of Rome , than to that of Alexandria or Antioch , I cannot easily imagine , till you prove some greater Infallibility attributed then to the Church of Rome , than was to other Apostolical Churches : which as yet we are to seek for . But at length ( you tell us ) after much ado he grants perfidia may be taken for errour in Faith , or for perfidious misbelievers and Schismaticks , who had betrayed their Faith ; but then ( say you ) he cavils with the word Romanos . This must be limited only to those Christians , who then lived in Rome , to whom quà tales , as long as they continued such , errour in Faith could not have access . What you say , his Lordship , doth at length and after much ado , he did freely and willingly ; but that you might have occasion for those words , you altered the course of his answers , and put the second in the last place . But still you have the unhappiness to misunderstand him . For although he grants that perfidia may relate to errour in Faith , yet as it is here used , it is not understood of it abstractly but concretely , for perfidious misbelievers , i. e. such perfidious persons , excommunicated out of other Churches , were not likely to get access at Rome , or to find admittance into their communion . And in this sense , it is plain that St. Cyprian did not intend by these words , to exempt the Romans from possibility of errour , but to brand his adversaries with a title due to their merit , calling them perfidious , i. e. such as had betrayed or perverted the Faith. When you therefore ask , is not this great praise ? I suppose none but your self would make a question of it , viz. that the Church of Rome had then so great purity as not to admit such perfidious misbelievers into her communion . And it were well if the present Church of Rome were capable of the same praise . But when you add , It is as if St. Cyprian should say St. Peters See could not erre so long as it continued constant in the truth ; you wilfully misunderstand his Lordships meaning , who speaks of the persons and not meerly of their errours ; but however , is it not a commendation to say that the Church of Rome consisted of such persons then who adhered to the Apostolical Faith , and therefore errour could not have access to them ? And I look on it as so great a commendation , that I heartily wish it could be verified of your Church now . Neither is this any such Identical proposition as that you produce , but only a declaration of their present constancy , and inferring thence , how unlikely it was that errours should be admitted by them . His Lordship to make it plain that St. Cyprian had no meaning to assert the unerring Infallibility of either Pope or Church of Rome , insists on the contest which after happened between St. Cyprian and Pope Stephen ; upon which he saith expresly , That Pope Stephen did not only maintain an errour but the very cause of Hereticks , and that against Christians and the very Church of God. And after this he chargeth him , with obstinacy and presumption ; And I hope this is plain enough ( saith his Lordship ) to shew that St. Cyprian had no great opinion of the Roman Infallibility . To this you answer , With a famous distinction of the Popes erring as a private Doctor and as the Vniversal Pastor , and that St. Cyprian might very well be supposed to think the Pope erred only in the first sense . Not to spend time in rifling this distinction of the Popes erring personally , but not judicially , or as a private Doctor , but not as Vniversal Pastor , which it were an easie matter to do , by manifesting the incongruity of it , and the absurdities consequent upon it , in case that doctrine which the Pope erres in , comes to be judicially decided by him ; It is sufficient for us at present to shew that this distinction cannot relieve you in our present case . For your Doctors tell us , the Pope then erres personally and as a private Doctor , when he erres only in his own judgement without obliging others to believe , what he judges to be true ; but then he erres judicially and as Vniversal Pastor , when he declares his judgement so as to oblige others to receive it as true . Now can any thing be more evident then that St. Cyprian judged Pope Stephen to erre in this latter and not in the former sense ? For doth he not absolutely and severely declare himself against St. Cyprians opinion : condemning it as an errour and an innovation ? But say you , He did not properly define any doctrine in that contestation ; but said nihil innovetur nisi quod traditum . But was not that the question what was traditum and what not , for Cyprian and his party denyed it to be a tradition , which Stephen asserted was so ; and doth he not therefore undertake to define something in this cause ? But say you , If this argument hold good against the Infallibility of Popes , viz. that St. Cyprian held Pope Stephen erred , therefore the Pope may erre in matters of Faith , it will be a good consequence also to say St. Cyprian held Pope Stephen erred , even whilst he maintained an universal immemorial tradition — therefore the Pope may erre whilst he follows such a tradition . I answer , 1. Who besides you , would not have seen , that the question was not , Whether the Pope was Infallible or no , but whether St. Cyprian judged him to be Infallible or no ? for if it appear that St. Cyprian did not judge him Infallible , then those former words cannot be interpreted to such a sense as doth imply Infallibility . 2. No doubt if the Pope may err in other things , he may err when he thinks he follows an universal immemorial tradition ; not that he doth err , when he doth really follow such a one , but he may err in judging that to be an universal immemorial tradition which is not : and this was the case between St. Cyprian and Pope Stephen ; the Pope pretended to follow an universal tradition , St. Cyprian judgeth him to err in it , and that it was not so . And is it not plain still , notwithstanding these frivolous pretences , that St. Cyprian had no opinion at all of the Popes Infallibility in any sense : and therefore out of honour to him , you are bound to interpret his former words to some other sense then that of any Infallibility in the Church of Rome . Thus all his Lordships answers standing good , you have gained no great matter by this first testimony of St. Cyprian . The second Authority is out of St. Hierome whose words are , The Roman Faith commended by the Apostle , admits not such praestigiae , deceits and delusions into it , though an Angel should Preach it otherwise , than it was Preached at first , being armed and fenced by St. Pauls Authority it cannot be changed . Here you tell us , You willingly agree with his Lordship that by Romanam fidem , St. Hierom understands the Catholick Faith of Christ , and so you concur with him against Bellarmine , that it cannot be understood of the particular Church of Rome . But by the way you charge your Adversaries , with great inconsequence that in this place they make Roman and Catholick to be the same , and yet usually condemn you for joyning as Synonyma 's Roman and Catholick together . A wonderful want of judgement ! as though the Roman Faith might not be the Catholick Faith then , and yet the Catholick Faith not be the Roman Faith now . The former speech only affirms that the Faith at Rome was truly Catholick ; the latter implyes that no Faith can be Catholick but what agrees with Rome : and think you there is no difference between these two ? But you say further , That this Catholick Faith must not here be taken abstractly that so it cannot be changed , for Ruffinus was not ignorant of that , but that it must be understood of the immutable Faith of the See Apostolick , so highly commended by the Apostle and St. Hierom ; which is founded upon such a rock , that even an Angel himself is not able to shake it . But St. Hierom speaking this with a reference to that Faith he supposeth the Apostle commended in them ( although the Apostle doth not so much commend the Catholickness or soundness of their Faith as the act of believing in them , and therefore whatever is drawn from thence , whether by St. Hierome or any else can have no force in it ; for if he should infe● the immutability of the Faith of the Church of Rome from so apparently weak a foundation , there can be no greater strength in his testimony than there is in the ground on which it is built ; and if there be any force in this Argument , the Church of Thessalonica will be as Infallible as Rome , for her Faith is commended rather in a more ample manner by the Apostle then that of Rome is ) St. Hierome , I say , referring to that Faith he supposes the Apostle commended in them , must only be understood of the unchangeableness of that first Faith , which appears by the mention of an Angel from Heaven Preaching otherwise . Which certainly cannot with any tolerable sense be meant thus , that St. Hierome supposed it beyond the power of an Angel from Heaven to alter the Faith of the Roman Church . For in the very same Apology he expresseth his great fears , lest the Faith of the Romans should be corrupted by the Books of Ruffinus . But , say you , What is this then to Ruffinus , who knew , as well as St. Hierom , that Faith could not change its essence ? However , though St. Hierome should here speak of the Primitive and Apostolical Faith which was then received at Rome , that this could receive no alteration ; yet this was very pertinent to be told Ruffinus , because St. Hierome charges him with an endeavour to subvert the Faith not meerly at Rome , but in all other places , by publishing the Books of Origen with an Encomiastick Preface to them ; and therefore the telling him , The Catholick Faith would admit of no alteration , which was received at Rome as elsewhere , might be an Argument to discourage him from any attempts of that nature . And the main charge against Ruffinus , is not an endeavour to subvert meerly the people of Rome , but the Latin Church by his translation ; and therefore these words ought to be taken in their greatest latitude ; and so imply not at all any Infallibility in the Roman See. The remaining Testimonies of Gregory Nazianzene , Cyril , and Ruffinus , ( as appears to any one who reads them ) only import that the Roman Church had to their time preserved the Catholick Faith ; but they do not assert it impossible it should ever do otherwise ; or that she is an Infallible preserver of it , and none of their Testimonies are so proper to the Church of Rome , but they would equally hold for any other Apostolical Churches at that time . Gregory Nazianzene indeed sayes , That it would become the Church of Rome to hold the entire Faith alwayes : and would it not become any other Church to do so to ? doth this import that she shall Infallibly do it , or rather that it is her duty to do it ? And if these then be such pregnant Authorities with you , it is a sign there is little or nothing to be found in Antiquity for your purpose . But before we end this Chapter , we are called to a new task on occasion of a Testimony of St. Cyril produced by his Lordship in stead of that in Bellarmin which appeared not in that Chapter , where his Name is mentioned . In which he asserts , That the foundation and firmness which the Church of Christ hath , is placed not in or upon the person , much less the Successour of St. Peter ; but upon the Faith which by Gods Spirit in him he so firmly professed : which ( saith his Lordship ) is the common received opinion both of the ancient Fathers and of the Protestants . Vpon this Rock , that is , upon this Faith will I build my Church . On which occasion you run presently out into that large common place concerning Tu es Petrus , and super hanc Petram ; and although I should grant all that you so earnestly contend for , viz. That these words are not spoken of St. Peters Confession , but of his Person , I know no advantage which will accrue to your cause by it . For although very many of the Fathers understand this place of St. Peters Confession , as containing in it the ground and Foundation of Christian Religion , Thou art Christ the Son of the Living God , which therefore may well be said to be the Rock on which Christ would build his Church , and although it were no matter of difficulty to defend this interpretation from all exceptions ; yet because I think it not improbable ( the words running by way of address to St. Peter ) that something peculiar to him , is contained in them , I shall not contend with you about that . But then , if you say that the meaning of St. Peters being the Rock , is , The constant Infallibility in Faith which was derived from St. Peter to the Church of Rome , as you seem to suggest , you must remember you have a new task to make good , and it is not saying , That St. Peter was meant by the Rock , will come within some leagues of doing it . I pass therefore by that discourse as a thing we are not much concerned in , for it is brought in by his Lordship as the last thing out of that testimony of Cyril : but you were contented to let go the other more material Observations , that you might more freely expatiate super hanc ●etram . Touching Ruffinus , I grant his Lordship is of opinion , That he neither did nor could account the Roman Church Infallible , for which he gives this reason , For if he had so esteemed of it , he would not have dissented from it in so main a point as is the Canon of Scripture as he plainly doth : For reckoning up the Canonical Books , he most manifestly dissents from the Roman Church . Therefore either Ruffinus did not think the Church of Rome was Infallible , or else the Church of Rome at this day reckons up more Books within the Canon , than heretofore she did . If she do , then she is changed in a main point of Faith , the Canon of Scripture , and is absolutely convinced not to be Infallible ; for if she were right in her reckoning then , she is wrong now ; and if she be right now , she was wrong then ; and if she do not reckon now more then she did , when Ruffinus lived , then he reckons fewer than she , and so dissents from her , which doubtless he durst not have done , had he thought her judgement Infallible . Yea and he sets this mark upon his dissent besides , that he reckons up the Books of the Canon just so , and no otherwise , then as he received them out of the Monuments of the fore-Fathers , and out of which the assertions of our Faith are to be taken . Now what have you to say to this strong and nervous Discourse of his Lordship ? Why ( forsooth ) this argument of the Bishop is far from being convincing . And why so ? For ( say you ) though it should be granted that the Catholick Church ( the Roman you mean ) at present declares more books to be contained in the Canon , than she did in Ruffinus his time , yet this could be no errour in her . That is strange , that the Church should declare the Canon to be compleat then , without these books , and now not to be , and yet neither time be in an errour ! No ( say you ) unless it be shewed ( which I am sure cannot be ) that she condemned those books then as not Divine Scripture , or not Canonical , which now she declares to be Divine or Canonical . Excellent good still ! that which you are sure cannot be shewed , is obvious to any one that hath eyes in his head . For I only ask you , Whether the Church of Rome did declare any Canon or no , in that age ? If not , according to your principles those who lived in that age could have no Divine Faith as to the Scripture : if she did declare the Canon of Scripture , without these Books , did she not thereby condemn these Books to be not Canonical ? For you say , that all are bound to take her judgement what is in the Canon and what not ; if therefore she did not put them into the Canon , did she not leave them out of the Canon ? or , Can you find any medium between being put in and being left out ? Yes ( say you ) these Books were left then under dispute : with whom were they under dispute ? with the Church of Rome or not ? If with her , was she not Infallible the mean while , when so great a matter as the Canon of Scripture was under dispute with her ? But this whole business concerning the Canon of Scripture is largely discussed already ; only here it is sufficient to shew , how you are pent in on every side ; so that there is no possibility of getting out . As to the strait ( his Lordship takes notice of ) that the Church of Rome is driven to , in borrowing a testimony for her Infallibility from one whom she branded with Heresie in that very Book from whence this testimony is taken ; You answer , That it evidently argues the truth and uncorruptedness of that Church , which is so clear that even her Adversaries cannot but confess it . But if they confess it no better then Ruffinus doth , she will have little cause to applaud her self for her Integrity in that respect . And although a Testimony may be taken from persons suspected in some things , yet it argues those have but very few friends , who are fain to make use of their enemies to bear witness for them . What follows concerning a particular Church being Infallible , because you disown it ( although not consonantly to the principles of your party as was shewed in the occasion of the Conference ) I pass by . The errours of the Church of Rome ( which his Lordship mentions , but you say proves not ) you shall find abundantly proved before our task is over . Your vindication of Bellarmin from inconsistency in saying A proposition is most true , and yet but peradventure as true as another , is so fine and subtil that it were an injury to the Reader to deprive him of the pleasure of perusing it . And yet when all is done , a Proposition very false might be as true as this which Bellarmin speaks of , viz. That the Pope when he teacheth the whole Church in matters of Faith cannot erre . And thus I have cleared that there can be no ground of an imputation of Schism on our Church from hence , that the Roman Church is the Catholick Church , which acception of the Catholick Church I have manifested to be as great a stranger to Antiquity as it is an enemy to Reason : And that the calling the Roman Church the Catholick Church , is ( as his Lordship truly saith ) a meer Novelty and perfect Jesuitism . CHAP. II. Protestants no Schismaticks . Schism a culpable separation ; therefore the Question of Schism , must be determined by enquiring into the causes of it . The plea from the Church of Rome's being once a right Church , considered . No necessity of assigning the punctual time when errours crept into her . An account why the originals of errours seem obscure . By Stapleton's confession , the Roman and Catholick Church were not the same . The falsity of that assertion manifested , That there could be no pure Church since the Apostles times , if the Roman Church were corrupt . No one particular Church free from corruptions ; yet no separation from the Catholick Church . How far the Catholick Church may be said to erre . Men may have distinct communion from any one particular Church , yet not separate from the Catholick Church . The Testimony of Petrus de Alliaco vindicated . Bellarmin not mis-cited . Almain full to his Lordships purpose . The Romanists guilty of the present Schism , and not Protestants . In what sense there can be no just cause of Schism ; and how far that concerns our case . Protestants did not depart from the Church of Rome , but were thrust out of it . The Vindication of the Church of Rome from Schism , at last depends upon the two false Principles , Of her Infallibility , and being the Catholick Church . The Testimonies of S. Bernard and S. Austin not to the purpose . The Catalogue of Fundamentals , the Churches not erring , &c. referr'd back to their proper places . BEfore I come to examine the particulars of this Chapter , it will be necessary to see , what the state of the Controversie was , concerning Schism , between his Lordship and his Adversary . His Lordship delivers his sense clearly and fully in these words ; T is too true indeed , that there is a miserable rent in the Church , and I make no question but the best men do most bemoan it ; nor is he a Christian that would not have Vnity , might he have it with Truth . But , I never said , nor thought , that the Protestants made this rent . The cause of the Schism is yours ; for you thrust us from you , because we call'd for truth , and redress of abuses . For a Schism must needs be theirs , whose the cause of it is . The woe runs full out of the mouth of Christ ever against him that gives the offence ; not against him that takes it ever . And in the Margent , shewing that a separation may sometimes be necessary , he instanceth in the orthodox departing from the communion of the Arrians : upon which he sayes ; It cannot be that a man should do well in making a Schism . There may be therefore a necessary separation , which yet incurrs not the guilt of Schism ; and that is , when Doctrines are taught contrary to the Catholick Faith. And after saith , The Protestants did not depart : for , departure is voluntary , so was not theirs ; I say not theirs , taking their whole body and cause together . For , that some among them were peevish , and some ignorantly zealous , is neither to be doubted , nor is there danger in confessing it . Your body is not so perfect ( I wot well ) but that many amongst you are as pettish and as ignorantly zealous as any of ours . You must not suffer for these , nor we for those , nor should the Church of Christ for either . And when A. C. saith , That though the Church of Rome did thrust the Protestants from her by excommunication , yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding and teaching Opinions contrary to the Roman Faith. His Lordship answers , So then in his Opinion , Excommunication on their part was not the prime cause of this division , but the holding and teaching of contrary Opinions . Why but then in my opinion ( saith he ) that holding and teaching was not the prime cause neither , but the corruptions and superstitions of Rome , which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary : So , the prime cause was theirs still . And A. C. telling him , That he said that it was ill done of those who first made the separation . He answers , That though he remembred not that he said those words ; yet withall adds , If I did not say it then , I do say it now ; and most true it is , That it was ill done of those , whoere they were , who first made the separation . But then A. C. must not understand me of Actual only , but of Causal separation . For ( as I said before ) the Schism is theirs , whose the cause of it is : and he makes the separation that gives the first just cause of it ; not he that makes an actual separation upon a just cause preceding . And this is so evident a Truth , that A. C. cannot deny it , for he sayes it is most true . These passages I have laid together , that the Reader may clearly understand the full state of this great Controversie concerning Schism ; the upshot of which , is , that it is agreed between both parties , that all separation from communion with a Church , doth not involve in it the guilt of Schism , but only such a separation as hath no sufficient cause or ground for it . So that the Question comes to this , Whether your Church were not guilty of such errours and corruptions , as gave sufficient cause for such a separation . The Question being thus stated , we now come to consider how you make good your part in it . Your first pretence is ( if reduced into argument , for you seem to have a particular pique against a close way of disputing ) That your Church is a right and orthodox Church , and therefore could never give any just cause of separation from it . For the Lady asked ( as A. C. would have it ) Whether the Roman Church was not the right Church ; not , be not , but , was not ; that is , relating to the times , before the breach was made . Now his Lordship tells him , That as to the terms he might take his choice ; For the Church of Rome neither is , nor was the right Church , as the Lady desired to hear . A particular Church it is , and was , and in some times right , and in some times wrong : but the right Church , or the Holy Catholick Church , it never was , nor ever can be . And therefore was not such before Luther and others left it , or were thrust from it . A particular Church it was ; but then A. C. is not distinct enough here neither . For the Church of Rome , both was , and was not a right or orthodox Church before Luther made a breach from it . For the word ante , before , may look upon Rome , and that Church a great way off , or long before ; and then in the prime times of it , it was a most right and orthodox Church . But it may look also nearer home , and upon the immediate times before Luther , or some ages before that : and then in those times Rome was a corrupt and tainted Church , far from being Right . And yet both these times , before Luther made his breach . And so he concludes that Section with this clause , That the Roman Church which was once right , is now become wrong , by embracing superstition and errour . And what say you now to all this ? Two things you have to return in answer to it , or at least to these two all that you say may be reduced . 1. That if the Roman Church was right once , it is so still . 2. That if the Roman Church were wrong before Luther , the Catholick Church was so too . These two containing all that is said in this case , must be more particularly discussed . 1. That if the Roman was the right Church , it still is so , seeing no change can be shewn in her Doctrine . If there have been a change , let it appear when , and in what the change was made . Thus you say : but you know his Lordship never granted , that the Roman Church ever was the right Church ( in the sense you take those words for the true Catholick Church ; ) that it was once a right particular Church he acknowledged , and as such was afterwards tainted with errours and corruptions . If so , you desire to know what these were , and when they came in ; to the former I shall reserve an Answer till I come to the third part of my task , where you shall have an account of them ; to the latter , the time when these came in , because this is so much insisted on by your party , I shall return you an Answer in this place . And that I shall do in these following Propositions . 1. Nothing can be more unreasonable , than to deny , that errours and corruptions have come into a Church , meerly because the punctual time of their coming in cannot be assigned . For , Will any one question the birth of an Infant , because he cannot know the time of his conception ? Will any one deny there are tares in the field , because he did not see them sown ? and our Saviour hath told us , That the time of sowing tares by the enemy , was , when the men were asleep . So we say , The errours and corruptions of your Church came in , in a time of great Ignorance , when little notice was taken of them , and few records preserved of those times and all the passages of them . Since Learning and Religion commonly decay and flourish together , How is it possible there should be as exact an account given of the decay of Religion , as of the flourishing of it ? Besides , Are there not many things you judge errours and corruptions your selves , which you can give no account when they first entred into the Church ? As the necessity of communicating Infants ; name us the person who first broached that Doctrine , and the time in which it was first received in the Church ? That no souls of men departed , shall see God till the day of resurrection , is , I suppose , with you , an errour ; yet it would puzzle you to find out the first Authour of it . So for the rebaptizing Hereticks , and many things of a like nature , it is easier to shew , when they appeared publickly , than when they first came into the Church . And as evident is it , in the decay of the primitive Discipline of the Church , the altering the orders of penitents , and the rites belonging to them , the leaving of the communicatory Letters between Churches , and many other customes of the Church grown into disuse ; and yet I suppose you will not presume to name the persons who first altered the former orders of the Church ; and methinks , this is as reasonable as the naming the punctual time when other corruptions came in . If you say , the primitive Discipline decayed gradually and insensibly ; so say I , that the Churches corruptions came in as the other went out , in the same gradual and insensible manner ; and if you cannot name the precise time of the one , it is not reasonable you should expect the other from us . 2. We may have sufficient reason to judge what are errours and corruptions in a Church , though we cannot fix on the time when they came in : Which is , by comparing them with that Rule of Faith which is delivered down by an interrupted tradition to us , and with the practice of the first Ages of the Christian Church . What is apparently contrary to either of these , we have reason to reject , though we cannot determine when it first came in . For as long as these are our certain standards , it matters not who first departed from them , as long as we see that they have departed . But when we own an absolute and infallible Rule of Faith and manners , to question , Whether any thing contrary to it , be an errour or no , because we cannot tell when it first began , would be , as if the Aegyptians , when they saw their Land overflowed by the Nile , should question , Whether it were so or no , because they could not find out the head of Nilus . 3. They who assert their Doctrines and Practices to be Apostolical , are bound to shew the continued succession of them from the Apostles times . And if they fail in this , upon their own principles , they must be errours and corruptions , though the punctual time of their first obtaining in the Church , cannot be set down . Since therefore you affirm , you are bound to prove . If you say , The judgement of your Church being infallible , you need prove no more than that . I answer , you must prove that this Infallibility then , hath been ever received in the Church ; but if there be not the least footstep of it in the records of the ancient Church , we justly look on this as an errour of the first magnitude , though we cannot tell you the minute of its first rising . 4. We have sufficient evidence from your selves , that many Doctrines and Practices are owned by you , which are of no great antiquity in the Christian Church . Thus , by the confession of Scotus , Transubstantiation is no elder than the Council of Lateran , Purgatory not much heard of in the primitive Church by the acknowledgement of Bishop Fisher , Communion in one kind confessed by most to be contrary to the primitive practice and institution , Prayer in an unknown tongue can be no elder than the general disuse of the Latin tongue in the Roman Provinces . And so for many others , for which we have the confessions of your own party ; but I need not insist upon that , since your very Doctrine of the Churches power to declare matters of Faith , may make things necessary in one Age , which were not in a foregoing , and , in that case , sure it is no great difficulty to tell you , when some things of School-points became necessary Doctrines ; but then the Question goes off from the time to the matter , Whether any thing declared by your Church can be an errour : but of that , enough hath been said already . 5. There may be a sufficient account given , why the beginnings of errours and corruptions in your Church have been so obscure ; because they came not in all of a sudden , but some at one time , some at another , because they rise gradually , as is apparent in Invocation of Saints , and Worship of Images , because many of those things which ended in great corruptions , were taken up at first out of good designs , to win more upon the Gentile world , because many things were at first practised freely , which afterwards were urged as necessary ; because Barbarism came into the Church along with these corruptions ; because many who gave occasion to them , were persons of great esteem in their age , and others strove to follow their example more than the Rule ; because the state of the Church did very much alter from it self in several ages , which altered mens apprehensions and judgements of things , in regard of their suitableness and necessity ; because those persons who brought in , and contended for these things , were the persons chiefly in power then in the Church , which hindered their being cast out of communion as others had been ; because a long time most of these errours and corruptions , were but the private opinions and practices of a faction , though then the more prevalent in the Church , and therefore not so vehemently opposed in the first rise of them , as when this imposthumated matter was grown to a head , and then there was a necessity of lancing it . These , and several other reasons might be given , why the first originals of errours and corruptions in your Church , cannot with so much clearness be manifested , as that they were errours and corruptions : Although such , who would take the pains to travel in an argument of that nature , might with very great probability , trace the most both of your errours and corruptions to the time and age , when they were first publickly owned and received . But thus much may here suffice as to your demand , That if your Church be not the same she was , we should mention the time , when the change was made . As though Chronical distempers could not be known , unless we could set down the punctual time of their first on-set . The distempers of your Church are Hectical , I wish not in that respect , that they are seldome fully discovered , till they be incurable . 2. You answer , That if your Church hath erred , the Catholick Church hath done so too ; for which you say two things . 1. That in this dispute the Roman Church , and the Catholick Church , are all one . 2. That then there was no one visible Church untainted , uncorrupt , right , orthodox throughout the whole world . 1. You learnedly tell us , That the Roman and Catholick Church are all one in this dispute , and most discreetly tell his Lordship , That he beggs the Question in supposing the contrary ; but you know whose arts those are to charge their neighbours with that , they were sure to be told of themselves , if the other had spoke first . But very worthily you prove this , from D. Stapleton , who offers to confirm his assertion by that which overthrows yours . He sayes , That amongst the Ancients , the Roman Church , and the Catholick Church were taken for the same , and his reason is , because the communion of the Roman Church was most certainly and evidently with the whole Catholick . And , Can any thing then be more plain , than that the Roman and Catholick Church were not the same ? For , Can any thing be the measure of it self ? If it were therefore Catholick , because agreeing with the Catholick Church , then it was not causally the Catholick Church , but only by way of communion and participation . If I should say , That a man and a living-creature , are the same , and should give this reason for it , Because man agrees in every thing with the nature of a living creature ; doth this imply , that the formal notion of man , and a living-creature , are the same ? or only that man partakes so much of the properties of a living creature , that he may well receive the denomination ? So it is here with the Roman Church , that might well be called Catholick by the Ancients , because it did partake of the properties of the Catholick Church , but not as though the formal Reason of a Churches being Catholick , came from partaking of communion with the Roman Church ; as you assert , wherein you are diametrically opposite to Stapleton , for he makes the reason , why the Roman Church was Catholick , to be , Because it had communion with the Catholick Church . By which it is evident , that the notion of the Catholick Church was much larger than that of the Roman Church . Besides , Stapleton only saith , That the Ancients thought so , and surely they thought so only of the Roman Church of their own time ; which might then have certain communion with the Catholick Church , and yet not have so in the next age ensuing ; therefore , though the Catholick Church continue ever the same , and incorrupt , it will by no means follow , that the Roman Church must do so too . Whatever A. C. or you understand by the Catholick Church , is not , as you elsewhere phrase it , a straws matter , unless you proved better than you have done , that the proper notion of the Holy Catholick Church , is the same with those who agree with the Church of Rome in Doctrine and Communion . Which is your fundamental mistake , and a thing you would fain have taken for granted , without the least shadow of a solid proof . But there may be more force in your second Answer , That if the Roman Church were wrong and corrupted , it follows , that not only for some time , but for many ages before Luther , yea even up to the Apostles times , there was no one visible Church untainted , uncorrupt , right , orthodox throughout the whole world . It were worth our while to know what you mean by no one Visible Church ; Do you think there are , or may be , more Visible Churches than one , taking the Visible Church in its proper sense for the Catholick Visible Church ? If this be your meaning in general , how unhappily soever it be expressed , viz. that then it follows , there could be no Visible Church at all with whom we might have communion ; I see not how it is proved by what you bring : But if this be all you aim at ( for no further your arguments will carry you ) that there was no one Visible Church untainted , i. e. no one Church of a distinct communion from other Churches altogether free from errour ; I see no such dangerous consequence in the owning it . But if it were so , when Luther began to oppose the corruptions of the Church of Rome , How doth it follow that it must be so even up to the Apostles times ? But we ought to see , how you prove your assertion . For if in all those Ages the Roman Church were wrong , corrupted , and tainted ; and all those likewise that disagreed from her , viz. Hussites , Albigenses , Waldenses , Wicklevites , Greeks , Abyssins , Armenians , &c. had in them corrupt Doctrine during those ages ( as 't is certain they had , neither could the Relator deny it ) I say , If the Roman Church was thus corrupt ; it follows , that not only for some time , but for many ages before Luther , yea even up to the Apostles times , there was no one Visible Church untainted , incorrupt , right , and orthodox , throughout the whole world . And consequently , that during the said ages , every good Christian was in conscience obliged in some point of Christian belief or other , to contradict the Doctrine , and desert the communion of all Visible Churches in the world , &c. Whence it would further follow , that Schism or separation from the external communion of the whole Church might be not only lawful , but even necessary ; which is impossible , as being contrary to the very essential predicates of Schism , which is defined to be , A voluntary or wilful departure ( such as no just cause , or reason , can be given of it ) from the communion of the whole Church . Three things this discourse of yours may be resolved into . 1. That if in Luthers time the Roman Church was corrupt , then there was no one Visible Church uncorrupt . 2. That if so , it follows that there was none uncorrupt even up to the Apostles times . 3. That if there were no one Visible Church uncorrupt , then it was necessary to separate from the external communion of the whole Church . To every one of these I shall return a peculiar and distinct Answer . To the first I say , That the utmost you can prove from hence , is , That there was no one Church of any distinct communion from others , which was free from all errours . And what great absurdity is there in saying so ? Unless you could prove , that there must be some one Church in all ages of the world , which must be free from all kind or possibility of errour . And when you have done this , I shall acknowledge it absurd to say the contrary ; but otherwise that very supposition seems to have the greater absurdity in it ; because it restrains the utmost supposable priviledges of the truly Catholick Church , to a particular Church of some one denomination . What then if we grant that in Luthers time , there was no one Visible Church free from errours and corruptions ? What if we should say , in our own times ? What if , in elder times ? For that which is possible to be , may be supposed actually in any time . If it be possible for one particular Church to fall into errours and corruptions , Why is it not for another ? ( unless some particular priviledge of Infallibility be pretended ; but that is not our present Question ) if it be possible for every particular Church to fall into errour , Why may not that possibility come into act in one Age , as well as several ? Is there any promise that there shall be a succession and course of erring in Churches , that one Church must erre for one age , and another for the next ? but that it shall never fall out , that by any means whatsoever they shall erre together ? If there be no such promise to the contrary , the reason of the thing will hold , that they may all erre at the same time . No , say you , for then it would follow , that the Catholick Church might erre . To that I answer , 1. Either you mean by that , that all societies in the Christian world may concurr in the same errour , or else that several of them may have several errours : and this latter is it only which you prove , for you do not suppose that the Romanists , Hussites , Albigenses , &c. were all guilty of the same errours , but that these several societies were guilty of several errours ; and therefore from hence it follows not , that they may all concurr in the same errour , which is the only way to prove that the Church as Catholick may erre , for otherwise you only prove , that the several particular Churches , which make up the Catholick , may fall into errour . 2. Supposing all these Churches should agree in one errour , ( which is more than you have proved , or , it may be , can ) have you proved that they concurr in such an errour , which destroies the Being of the Catholick Church ? For you would do well to evince , that the Church is secured from any but such errours which destroy its Being ; for the means of proving , That the Catholick Church cannot erre , are built on the promises of its perpetuity ; now those can only prove that the Church is secured from Fundamental errours , for those are such only which destroy its Being . And so his Lordship tells you , That the whole Church cannot universally erre in the Doctrine of Faith , is most true , and granted by divers Protestants ( so you will but understand it s not erring in absolute Fundamental Doctrines ) and this he proves , from that promise of Christ , That the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it . So that the Catholick Churche's not erring , and the perpetuity of the Catholick Church do with us , mean the same thing . For his Lordship grants , That she may erre in superstructures , and deductions , and other By , and Vnnecessary truths , if her curiosity , or other weakness , carry her beyond , or cause her to fall short of her Rule . There is then a great difference between saying , That the Catholick Church cannot erre , which is no more than to say , That there shall be alwaies a Catholick Church , and saying , That there must be alwaies some one Visible Church , which must be free from all errour and corruption . For this we deny , and you produce no reason at all to prove it . Granting , that all particular Churches , whether of Romanists , Greeks , or others , are subject to errours and corruptions , we assert no more of them , than you grant your selves , that any particular Church is subject to ; for the only ground , why you would have your Church exempt from errour , is , the supposing her not to be a particular , but the Catholick Church , which implies , that if she were only a particular Church ( as she is no more ) she might be subject to errours as well as other Churches . And what incongruity then there is in asserting , that there may be no one Visible Church of any particular denomination free from all errour and corruption , I cannot understand . But further , you say , If there were no one Visible Church then free from errour , it follows , not only for some time , but for many ages before Luther , yea even up to the Apostles times , there was no one Visible Church untainted throughout the whole world . Not to meddle with the truth of the thing , Whether there were so or no , the consequence is that , we are now to examine ; that if it were so in Luthers time , it must be so even up to the Apostles times . The proof of which depends upon the impossibility of a Churches degeneracy in Faith or Manners , and so supposeth the thing in question , that there must be some one Visible Church absolutely exempt from all impossibility of errour . For otherwise that might be true in one age , which might not in another . For although we say , that particular Churches may erre , and be corrupt , we do not say , that it is necessary they should alwaies be so . For , in some ages particular Churches may be free from errour and corruption , and yet in another age be overspread with them . And thus we assert it to have been with the Roman Church : for his Lordship saith , In the prime times it was a most right and orthodox Church , but in the immediate times before . Luther , or in some ages before , that it was a corrupt and tainted Church : And so in those times in which it was right , those might be heretical who did not communicate with it , not meerly because they did not communicate with it , but because in not communicating with a right and orthodox Church they shewed themselves guilty of some errour or corruption . We see then , there is no connexion in the world in the parts of your consequence , That if it were so at one time , it must be so alwaies ; if in the time of Luther , it must be so even up to the Apostles times . 3. From hence you say it will follow , That it will be necessary to separate from the external communion of the whole Church . I answer , there can be no separation from the whole Church , but in such things wherein the Vnity of the whole Church lyes ; for separation is a violation of some Vnion : now when men separate from the errours of all particular Churches , they do not separate from the whole , because those things which one separates from those particular Churches for , are not such , as make all them put together to be the whole , or Catholick Church . This must be somewhat further explained . There are two things considerable in all particular Churches ; those things which belong to it as a Church , and those things which belong to it as a particular Church . Those things which belong to it as a Church , are the common ligaments or grounds of union between all particular Churches , which taken together , make up the Catholick Church : Those things which belong to it as a particular Church , are such as it may retain the essence of a Church without . Now , I say , Whosoever separates from any particular Church ( much more from all ) for such things without which that can be no Church , separates from the communion of the Catholick Church ; but he that separates only from particular Churches as to such things which concern not their Being , is only separated from the communion of those Churches , and not the Catholick . And therefore , supposing that all particular Churches have some errours and corruptions in them , though I should separate from them all , I do not separate from the communion of the whole Church , unless it be for something , without which those could be no Churches . An evidence of which , is , that by my declaring the grounds of my separation to be such errours and corruptions , which are crept into the communion of such Churches , and imposed on me in order to it , I withall declare my readiness to joyn with them again , if those errours and corruptions be left out . And where there is this readiness of communion , there is no absolute separation from the Church as such , but only suspending communion till such abuses be reformed . Which is therefore more properly a separation from the errours , than the communion of such a Church . Wherefore if we suppose that there is no one Visible Church , whose communion is not tainted with some corruptions , though , if these corruptions be injoyned as conditions of communion , I cannot communicate with any of those Churches , yet it follows not that I am separated from the external communion of the Catholick Church , but that I only suspend communion with those particular Churches , till I may safely joyn with them . As , suppose all the particular men I can converse with , were infected with Leprosie , my not associating with them , doth not imply that I am separated from the communion of all mankind , but that I am loath to be infected as they are , and therefore withdraw my self till I can meet with such healthful persons with whom I may safely associate again . And if several other persons be of the same mind with me , and we therefore joyn together , Do we therefore divide our selves from the whole world by only taking care of our own safety ? And especially if any company of such leprous persons should resolve that none should live among them , but such as would eat of those meats which brought that distemper upon them ; our withdrawing our selves , and associating without them will still appear more reasonable and commendable . Therefore we say , We do not necessarily separate from all Churches that have errours or corruptions in them , supposing those errours and corruptions be not imposed on us , as conditions of communion ; and thence though we should grant , No one visible Church free from taint or corruption , yet it is not necessary we should separate from them all : For we may lawfully joyn in Communion with Churches having errours and corruptions , if our joyning be not an approbation of them . Thus though the Greeks , Armenians , Albigenses , Abyssms may have some errours , or corruptions , yet if they be not Fundamental , and be not injoyned as necessary to be approved in order to their Communion , notwithstanding them , we may lawfully Communicate with them . It doth not then at all follow , that if there may be no one visible Church free from errour and corruption , it would be necessary to separate from the Communion of the Catholick Church : because 1. All those particular Churches may not make those errours conditions of Communion . 2. Though they did , we separate not from them as Catholick , but as corrupt and erroneous particular Churches . And therefore you might have spared your labour in telling us from the Holy Fathers , and the Reverend and learned Dr. Hammond , That it can never be lawful to separate from the Catholick Church , for we assert the same , but have made it appear that it follows not from the premises which were laid down . His Lordship having said , That the Roman Church before Luther was a corrupt and tainted Church , in his Margin produceth a Citation to that purpose of Cardinal de Alliaco , who acknowledgeth infinite abuses , Schisms and Heresies to prevail over the Christian world ; so that it is plain , The Church of God stands in need of due reformation . From which his Lordship saith , That it will hardly sink into any mans judgement that so great a man , as Pet. de Alliaco was in that Church , should speak thus if he did not see some errours in the Doctrine of that Church as well as the manners . To this you answer , That he speaks not of false Doctrines taught by the Roman Church , but of Schisms and Heresies raised against the Church ( not fostered by her ) in all parts of Christendom . But I appeal to any indifferent Reader of this Testimony , whether he can conceive that the Cardinal intended to acquit or accuse the Roman Church in those words of his . For taking them in your sense , they must contain a high commendation of the Roman Church , that in the midst of so many Heresies and Schisms raised against her , she preserved her Faith entire ; and think you that he that said , The Church of God needed reformation , thought there was nothing in the Church which stood in need of it ? And therefore this Testimony doth sufficiently prove that the Roman Church was a tainted and corrupted Church . If there be sufficient evidence , that there are tares sown in the Church of Rome , it is not to much purpose to enquire Whether they were sown while the Bishops slept , or whether they themselves did not help to sow them . But it seems in their private capacities they might sow them , as private Doctors , and then it is not likely that in their publick capacity they would pluck them up . If the Catholick Faith only , as you tell us , oblige us to maintain that the Pope is Infallible when he defines a General Council ; then there will be opportunity enough for errours to be sown , and grow up in the interval of such definitions . But you further add , That though this be all which men are obliged to maintain ( for no man can be bound to impossibilities ) yet that it is a very pious opinion to hold , That no Popes have personally erred as private Doctors , i. e. you have a very good mind to maintain it , if you knew how ; for that is the meaning of your pious opinion . For if you thought it had been defensible , no doubt it had been de fide long ago . But it was hard thwarting the Records of former ages wherein the errours of Popes , and their mutual contradictions are so visible to all that search after them , and therefore it was wisely concluded that this should not be held de fide , but , if any would venture upon a thing so acceptable at Rome as Personal Infallibility is , it should be accounted a very pious undertaking . And accordingly Bellarmin hath with the greatest care and industry endeavoured it in several Chapters ; but , as his Lordship truly saith , All Bellarmin's labour though great and full of art , is not able to wash them clean . And this ( if you had undertaken the defence of Bellarmin ) should have been made good ; but since you are so cautious as not to think your self obliged to do it , I commend your discretion in it , and proceed . I cannot see that his Lordship is guilty of a false quotation of Bellarmin for that saying , Et Papas quosdam graves errores seminâsse in Ecclesiâ Christi , luce clarius est , for he doth not seem at all to Cite Bellarmin for it ; but having Cited the place just before , where he endeavours to vindicate the Popes from all errours ; he adds this expression , as directly contrary to his design , that though he had endeavoured so much to clear them from errours , yet that they had sown some grievous errours in the Church was as clear as the day ; and as it immediately follows is proved by Jac. Almain , &c. And therefore it was only your own oscitancy which made you set it in the Contents of your Chapter , that Cardinal Bellarmin was most falsly quoted by him . But that falseness which with so much confidence you charge his Lordship with , rebounds with greater force on your self , when you say , That Almain speaks not of errours in Faith at all , but only of errours , or rather abuses in point of manners ; whereas he not only asserts but largely proves , That the Pope may err , not only personally but judicially , and in the same Chapter brings that remarkable Instance of the evident contradiction between the definitions of Pope Nicolaus 3. and John 22. And Platina tells us , that John 22. declared them to be Hereticks who held according to the former definition . And , Is this only concerning some abuses abuses in point of manners , and not concerning errours in Faith that Almain speaks ? You might as well say so of Lyra , who said , That many Popes have Apostatized from the Faith ; of Cusanus , who saith , That both in a direct and collateral line , several Popes have fallen into Heresie ; of Alphonsus à Castro , who saith , That the best friends of the Popes believe they may err in Faith ; of Carranza , who sayes , No one questions but the Pope may be an Heretick ; of Canus , who sayes , It is not to be denyed but that the chief Bishop may be an Heretick , and that there are examples of it : You might as well , I say , affirm that all these spake only of abuses in Manners , and not errours in Faith , as you do of Almain . Neither will your other subterfuge serve your turn , That they taught errours in Doctrine as private men ; for , Alphonsus à Castro expresly affirms in the case of Pope Coelestine , about the dissolution of Marriage in case of Heresie , That it cannot be said that he erred through negligence , and as a private person , and not as Pope ; For ( saith he ) this definition is extant in the decretals , and he had seen it himself . Although the contrary to this were afterwards defined not only by Pope Innocent 3. but by the Council of Trent . And hence it appears whatever you pretend to the contrary , That there may be tares sown in the Church of Rome , not only by private persons , but by the publick hands of the Popes too , if they themselves may be believed , who else do most Infallibly contradict each other . But whether these errours came in at first through negligence or publick definitions is not so material to our purpose ; for which it is sufficient to prove that the Church of Rome may be tainted and corrupted , which may be done one way as well as the other . As Corn-fields may be over-run with tares though no one went purposely to sow them there . And so much is acknowledged by Cassander when he speaks of the superstitious practises used in your Church , That those who should have redressed those abuses , were , if not the Authours , yet the incouragers of them for their own advantage ; by which means , errours and corruptions may soon grow to a great height in a Church though they were never sown by publick definitions . And when you disparage Cassanders Testimony , by telling us how little his credit is among Catholicks , you thereby let us see how much your Church is over-run with corruptions , when none among you can speak against them but they presently forfeit their reputation . The case of the Schism at Rome between Cornelius and Novatianus , and the imployment of Caldonius and Fortunatus from St. Cyprian thither , doth belong to the former Chapter , where it hath been fully discoursed of already , and must not be repeated here . Only thence we see that Rome is as capable of a Schism within her own bowels as any other Church is , which is abundantly attested by the multitudes of Schisms , which happened afterwards between the Bishops of that See. But this being insisted on by his Lordship in the former Controversie of the Catholick Church , doth not refer to this Chapter wherein the causes of our separation should be enquired into . Which at last you come to , and passing by the verbal dispute between A.C. and his Lordship about what was spoken at the Conference , you tell us , It more concerns you to see what could or can be said in this point . You draw up therefore a large and formal charge of Schism against us in your following words . Our assertion , say you , is ; but , good Sir , it is not what you assert , but what you prove . It were an easie matter for us to draw up a far larger Bill against your Church , and tell you our assertion is , that you are the greatest Schismaticks in the world . Would you look on it as sufficiently proved because we asserted it ? I pray think the same of us , for we are not apt to think our selves guilty of Schism at all the more , because you tell us what your assertion is ; if this be your way of dealing with us , your first assertion had need be , That you are Infallible ; but still that had need be more then asserted , for unless it be Infallibly proved we should not believe it . But however , we must see what your assertion is , that we may at least understand from you the state of the present Controversie . Your assertion therefore is , that Protestants made this rent or Schism , by their obstinate and pertinacious maintaining erroneous Doctrines , contrary to the Faith of the Roman or Catholick Church : by their rejecting the Authority of their lawful Ecclesiastical Superiours both immediate and mediate ; by aggregating themselves into a separate body or company of pretended Christians , independent of any Pastours at all , that were in lawful and quiet possession of jurisdiction over them ; by making themselves Pastours and Teachers of others , and administring Sacraments without Authority given them by any that were lawfully impower●d to give it ; by instituting new rites and ceremonies of their own in matter of Religion , contrary to those anciently received throughout all Christendome ; by violently excluding and dispossessing other Prelates and Pastours of and from their respective See's , Cures , and Benefices ; and intruding themselves into their places in every Nation where they could get footing , the said Prelates and Pastours for the most part yet living . These are your assertions , and because you seek not to prove them it shall be sufficient to oppose ours to them . Our assertion therefore is , that the Church and Court of Rome are guilty of this Schism , by obtruding erroneous Doctrines and superstitious practises , as the conditions of her Communion ; by adding such Articles of Faith which are contrary to the plain rule of Faith , and repugnant to the sense of the truly Catholick and not the Roman Church ; by her intolerable incroachments and usurpations upon the liberties and priviledges of particular Churches , under a vain pretence of Vniversal Pastourship ; by forcing men if they would not damn their souls by sinning against their consciences in approving the errours and corruptions of the Roman Church , to joyn together for the Solemn Worship of God according to the rule of Scripture and practise of the Primitive Church ; and suspending Communion with that Church till those abuses and corruptions be redressed . In which they neither deny obedience to any Lawful Authority over them , nor take to themselves any other Power than the Law of God hath given them , receiving their Authority in a constant Succession from the Apostles : they institute no Rites and Ceremonies either contrary to , or different from the practise of the Primitive Church ; they neither exclude or dispossess others of their Lawful Power , but in case others neglect their office , they may be notwithstanding obliged to perform theirs in order to the Churches Reformation . Leaving the Supreme Authority of the Kingdome or Nation to order and dispose of such things in the Church which of right appertain unto it . And this we assert to be the case of Schism , in reference to the Church of England , which we shall make good in opposition to your assertions , where we meet with any thing that seems to contradict the whole or any part of it . These and the like practises of yours ( to use your own words ) not any obstinate maintaining any erroneous Doctrines , as you vainly pretend , we averre to have been the true and real causes of that separation which is made between your Church and Ours . And you truly say , That Protestants were thrust out of your Church ; which is an Argument they did not voluntarily forsake the Communion of it , and therefore are no Schismaticks ; but your carriage and practises were such as forced them to joyn together in a distinct Communion from you . And it was not we who left your Church , but your Church that left her Primitive Faith and Purity in so high a manner , as to declare all such excommunicate who will not approve of and joyn in her greatest corruptions , though it be sufficiently manifest that they are great recessions from the Faith , Piety , and Purity of that Roman Church which was planted by the Apostles , and had so large a commendation from the Apostolical men of those first ages . Since then such errours and corruptions are enforced upon us as conditions of Communion with you , by the same reason that the Orthodox did very well in departing from the Arrians , because the Arrians were already departed from the Church by their false Doctrine ; will our separation from you be justified who first departed from the Faith and Purity of the Primitive Church ; and not only so , but thrust out of your Communion all such as would not depart from it as farr as you . Having thus considered and retorted your Assertions , we come to your Answers . Nor ( say you ) does the Bishop vindicate the Protestant party , by saying , The cause of Schism was ours , and that we Catholicks thrust Protestants from us , because they call'd for truth and redress of abuses . For first , there can be no just cause of Schism ; this hath been granted already even by Protestants . And so it is by us , and the reason is very evident for it , for if there be a just cause , there can be no Schism ; and therefore what you intend by this , I cannot imagine , unless it be to free Protestants from the guilt of Schism , because they put the Main of their tryal upon the justice of the cause which moved them to forsake the Communion of your Church ; or else you would have it taken for granted that ours was a Schism , and thence inferr there could be no just cause of it . As if a man being accused for taking away the life of one who violently set upon him in the High-way with an intent both to rob and destroy him , should plead for himself that this could be no murther in him , because there was a sufficient and justifiable cause for what he did ; that he designed nothing but to go quietly on his road ; that this person and several others violently set upon him ; that he intreated them to desist , that he sought to avoid them as much as he could , but when he saw they were absolutely bent on his ruine , he was forced in his own necessary defence to take away the life of that person ; Would not this with any intelligent Jury be looked on as a just and reasonable Vindication ? But if so wise a person as your self had been among them , you would no doubt have better informed them ; for you would very gravely have told them , All his plea went on a false supposition , that he had a just cause for what he did , but there could be no just cause for murther . Do you not see now how subtil and pertinent your Answer is here , by this parallel to it ? For as in that case all men grant that there can be no just cause for murther , because all murther is committed without a just cause ; and if there be one , it ceaseth to be murther : So it is here in Schism , which being a causeless separation from the Churches Vnity , I wonder who ever imagined there could be just cause for it . But to rectifie such gross mistakes as these are for the future , you would do well to understand that Schism formally taken alwayes imports something criminal in it , and there can be no just cause for a sin ; but besides that , there is that which ( if you understand it ) you would call the materiality of it which is the separation of one part of the Church from another . Now this , according to the different grounds and reasons of it , becomes lawful or unlawful , that is , as the reasons do make it necessary or unnecessary , For separation is not lawful but when it is necessary : now this being capable of such a different nature that it may be good or evil according to its circumstances , there can be no absolute judgement passed upon it , till all those reasons and circumstances be duely examined ; and if there be no sufficient grounds for it , then it is formally Schism , i. e. a culpable separation ; if there be sufficient cause , then there may be a separation , but it can be no Schism . And because the Vnion of the Catholick Church lyes in Fundamental and necessary truths , therefore there can be no separation absolutely from the Catholick Church but what involves in it the formal guilt of Schism ; it being impossible any person should have just cause to disown the Churches Communion for any thing whose belief is necessary to salvation . And whosoever doth so , thereby makes himself no member of the Church , because the Church subsists on the belief of Fundamental truths . But in all such cases wherein a division may be made , and yet the several persons divided retain the essentials of a Christian Church , the separation which may be among any such , must be determined according to the causes of it . For it being possible of one side , that men may out of capricious humours and fancies renounce the Communion of a Church which requires nothing but what is just and reasonable ; and it being possible on the other side , that a Church calling her self Catholick may so far degenerate in Faith and practise , as not only to be guilty of great errours and corruptions , but to impose them as conditions of Communion with her , it is necessary where there is a manifest separation to enquire into the reasons and grounds of it ; and to determine the nature of it according to the justice of the cause which is pleaded for it . And this I hope may help you a little better to understand , what is meant by such , who say , There can be no just cause of Schism ; and how little this makes for your purpose . But you go on and I must follow . And to his calling for truth , &c. I Answer , What Hereticks ever yet forsook the Church of God , but pretended truth , and complain'd they were thrust out , and hardly dealt with , meerly because they call'd for truth and redress of abuses ? And I pray , what Church was ever so guilty of errours and corruptions , but would call those Hereticks and Schismaticks who found fault with her Doctrine , or separated from her Communion ? It is true , Hereticks pretend truth , and Schismaticks abuses , but is it possible there should be errours and corruptions in a Churches Communion , or is it not ? if not , prove but that of your Church , and the cause is at an end ; if it be , we are to examine whether the charge be true or no. For although Hereticks may pretend truth , and others be deceived in judging of it , yet doubtless there is a real difference between truth and errour . If you would never have men quarrel with any Doctrine of your Church because Hereticks have pretended truth : would not the same reason hold , why men should never enquire after Truth , Reason , or Religion , because men have pretended to them all which have not had them . It is therefore a most senseless cavil to say we have no reason to call for truth because Hereticks have done so ; and on the same grounds you must not be call'd Catholicks because Hereticks have been call'd so . But those who have been Hereticks were first proved to be so , by making it appear that was a certain truth which they denyed ; do you the same by us ; prove those which we call errours in your Church to be part of the Catholick and Apostolick Faith ; prove those we account corruptions , to be parts of Divine worship , and we will give you leave to call us Hereticks and Schismaticks , but not before . But , say you , He should have reflected that the Church of God is stiled a City of Truth by the Prophet , ( and so it may be , and yet your Church be a fortress of Errour ) And a pillar and foundation of Truth by the Apostle , ( but what is this to the Church of Romes being so ) And by the Fathers , a rich depository or Treasury of all Divine and Heavenly Doctrines ( so it was in the sense the Fathers took the Church in , for the truly Catholick Christian Church ) . And we may use the same expressions still of the Church as the Prophets , Apostles , and Fathers did , and nevertheless charge your Church justly with the want of truth , and opposition to the preaching of it , and on that ground justly forsake her Communion , which is so far from being inexcusable impiety and presumption , that it was only the performance of a necessary Christian duty . And therefore that Woe of scandal , his Lordship mentioned , still returns upon your party who gave such just cause of offence to the Christian world , and making it necessary for all such as aimed at the purity of the Christian Church to leave your Communion , when it could not be enjoyed without making shipwrack both of Faith and a good Conscience . And this is so clear and undeniable ( to follow you still in your own language ) that we dare appeal for a tryal of our cause to any Assembly of learned Divines , or what Judge and Jury you please , provided they be not some of the parties accused ; and because you are so willing to have Learned Divines , I hope you will believe the last Pope Innocent so far , as not to mention the Pope and Cardinals . What follows in Vindication of A. C. from enterfeiring and shuffling in his words , because timorous and tender consciences think they can never speak with caution enough , for fear of telling a lye , will have the force of a demonstration , ( being spoken of and by a Jesuite ) among all those who know what mortal haters they are of any thing that looks like a lye or aequivocation : And what reason there is that , of all persons in the world , they should be judged men of timorous and tender consciences . But whatever the words were which passed , you justifie A. C. in saying , That the Protestants did depart from the Church of Rome , and got the Name of Protestants by protesting against her . For this ( say you ) is so apparent that the whole world acknowledgeth it . If you mean that the Communion of Protestants is distinct from yours , Whoever made scruple of confessing it ? But because in those terms of departing , leaving , forsaking your Communion , you would seem to imply that it was a voluntary act and done without any necessary cause enforcing it , therefore his Lordship denyes that Protestants did depart ; for , saith he , departure is voluntary so was not theirs . But because it is so hard a matter to explain the nature of that separation between your Church and Ours , especially in the beginning of it , without using those terms or some like them , as when his Lordship saith , that Luther made a breach from it . It is sufficient , that we declare that by none of these expressions we mean any causeless separation , but only such acts as were necessarily consequential to the imposing your errours and corruptions as conditions of Communion with your Church . To the latter part his Lordship answers , That the Protestants did not get that name , by Protesting against the Church of Rome , but by Protesting ( and that when nothing else would serve ) against her errours and superstitions . Do you but remove them from the Church of Rome , & our Protestation is ended and our Separation too . This , you think , will be answered with our old put off , That it is the common pretext of all Hereticks , when they sever themselves from the Roman - Catholick Church . If your Church indeed were what she is not , the Catholick Church , we might be what we are not , Hereticks : but think it not enough to prove us Hereticks , that you call us so , unless you will likewise take it for granted , that the Pope is Antichrist , and your Church , the Whore of Babylon , because they are as often , and as confidently call'd so . And if your Church be truly so ( as she is shrewdly suspected to be ) Do you think she , and all her followers , would not as confidently call such as dissented from her , Hereticks , and the using those expressions of her virulent execrations against her , as you do now , supposing her not to be so . What therefore would belong to your Church , supposing her as bad as any Protestants imagine her to be , cannot certainly help to perswade us , that she is not so bad as she is . When you say still , That Protestants did really depart from the Roman Church , and in so doing , remained separate from the whole Church ; you very fairly beg the thing in dispute , and think us uncivil for denying it . You know not what that passage means , That the Protestants did not voluntarily depart , taking their whole body and cause together , since there is no obscurity in the expression , but a defect elsewhere , I can only say , That his Lordship was not bound to find you an Vnderstanding as oft as you want it . But it were an easie matter to help you ; for it is plain , that he speaks those words to distinguish the common cause of Protestants , from the heats and irregularities of some particular persons , whom he did not intend to justifie , such as he saith , Were either peevish , or ignorantly zealous . And if you distinguish the sense of your Church from the judgements of particular persons , I hope it may be as lawful for us to distinguish the body and cause of Protestants from the inconsiderate actings of any particular men . All that which follows about the name of Protestants , which his Lordship saith , Took its rise , not from protesting simply against the Roman Church , but against the Edict at Worms , which was for the restoring all things to their former state , without any reformation , is so plain and evident , that nothing but a mind to cavil , and to give us the same things over and over , could have made you stay longer upon it . For what else means , your talk of Innovation in matters of Religion ( which we say , was caused by you ) and protesting against the Roman Church , and consequently against all particular Visible Churches in the world , and that which none but Hereticks and Schismaticks used to do ? Do you think these passages are so hard , that we cannot know what they mean , unless we have them so often over ? But they are not so hard to be understood , as to be believed , and that the rather , because we see you had rather say them often , than prove them once . If the Popes professed Reformation necessary as to many abuses , I hope they are not all Schismaticks who call for the redress of abuses in your Church . But , if all the Reformation we are to expect of them , be that , which you say , was effectually ordained by the Council of Trent , if there had not been an Edict at Worms , there were the Decrees of that Council which would have made a Protestation necessary . Although we think your Church needs Reformation in Manners and Discipline , as much as any in the world , yet those are not the abuses mainly insisted on by the Protestants , as the grounds of their Separation , and therefore his Lordship ought to be understood , of a Reformation as to the errours and corruptions of the Roman Church ; and doubtless that Edict of Worms which was for the restoring all things to their former state , did cut off all hopes of any such Reformation as was necessary for the Protestants to return to the Roman Communion . And whatever you say , till you have proved the contrary better than as yet it is done , it will appear , that they are the Protestants who stand for the ancient and undefiled Doctrine of the Catholick Church , against the novel and corrupt Tenets of the Roman Church . And such kind of Protestation no true Christian , who measures his being Catholick , by better grounds than communion with the Church of Rome , will ever have cause to be ashamed of . But A. C. ( saith his Lordship ) goes on , and will needs have it , that the Protestants were the cause of the Schism . For , ( saith he ) though the Church of Rome did thrust them from her by excommunication , yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding and teaching Opinions contrary to the Roman Faith , and practice of the Church , which to do , S. Bernard thinks , is pride , S. Austin , madness . At this his Lordship takes many and just exceptions . 1. That holding and teaching was not the prime cause neither , but the corruptions and superstitions of Rome , which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary . So the prime cause was theirs still . Now to this your Answer is very considerable . That the Bishop of Rome being S. Peter 's successor in the Government of the Church , and Infallible ( at least with a General Council ) it is impossible , that Protestants , or other Sectaries , should ever find such errours or corruptions difinitively taught by him , or received by the Church , as should either warrant them to preach against her Doctrine , or lawfully to forsake her communion . We say , Your Church hath erred ; you say , It is impossible she should ; we offer you evident proofs of her errours ; you say , She is Infallible ; we say , It is impossible , that Church should be Infallible , which we can make appear hath been deceived ; you tell us again , It is impossible she should be deceived ; for , let Hereticks say what they will , she is Infallible . And if this be not a satisfactory way of answering , let the world judge . But having already pulled down that Babel of Infallibility , this Answer falls to the ground with it ; and to use your phrase , The truth is , all that you have in effect to say for your Church , is , that she is Infallible , and the Catholick Church , and by this means you think to cast the Schism upon us ; and these things are great enough indeed , if you could but make any shew of proof for them ; but not being able to do that , you do in effect as much as if a man in a high feaver should go about to demonstrate it was impossible for him to be sick , which , the more he takes pains to do , the more evident his distemper is to all who hear him . And it is shrewdly to be suspected , if your errours had not been great and palpable , you would have contented your selves with some thing short of Infallibility . But as the case is with your Church , I must confess it is your greatest wisdom to talk most of Infallibility ; for if you can but meet with any weak enough to swallow that , all other things go down without dispute ; but if men are left at liberty to examine particulars , they would as soon believe it was impossible for that man to fall , whom they see upon the ground , as your Church to be infallible , which they find overspread with errour and corruptions . Much such another Answer you return to his Lordship's second Exception , which is , at his calling the Christian Faith the Roman Faith : For , you say , It is no incongruity so to call it , for the Bishop of Rome being Head of the whole Christian or Catholick Church , the Faith approved and taught by him as Head thereof , though it be de facto the general Faith and Profession of all Christians , may yet very well be called the Roman Faith ; Why ? because the root , origine , and chief Foundation under Christ , of its being practised and believed by Christians is at Rome . But if the Bishop of Rome be no such thing as Head of the Christian Church ( and they must have a very wide Faith , which must swallow that Vniversal Headship , with all the appurtenances upon your bare affirmation ) if it belongs no more to him to approve and teach the Faith then to any other Catholick Bishop , if the coming from Rome affords no credibility at all to the Christian Faith ; then still there remains as great an incongruity as may be , in calling the Christian Faith , the Roman Faith. And as to all these my denial is as good as your affirmation ; when you undertake to prove , I shall to answer . If A. C. adds the practice of the Church to the Roman Faith , I see no advantage is gotten by it , for the first must limit the latter , and the Faith being Roman , the Church must be so too , and therefore all your cavils on that subject come to nothing . The third Exception is , against the place out of S. Bernard , and S. Austin , which , his Lordship saith , are mis-applied ; for neither of them ( saith he ) spake of the Roman ; and S. Bernard perhaps neither of the Catholick , nor the Roman , but of a particular Church or Congregation . His words are , What greater pride , than that one man should prefer his judgement before the whole Congregation . Which A. C. conveniently to his purpose rendred before the whole Congregation of all the Christian Churches in the world . Whereas no such thing is in him as all the Christian Churches in the world . And his Lordship saith , He thinks it is plain , that he speaks both of , and to the particular Congregation , to which he was then preaching . This you deny not , but say , The argument holds â minori ad majus , to shew the more exorbitant pride of those , who prefer their private fanatick Opinions , before the judgement of the whole Catholick Church . The Roman Church you should have said ▪ for you own no Catholick Church , but what is Roman , and therein the argument you mention will hold yet further , against those who prefer the Novel Opinions of the Roman Church , before the ancient Apostolical Faith of the truly Catholick Church . His Lordship adds , That it is one thing to prefer a mans private judgement before the whole Congregation ; and another , for an intelligent man in something unsatisfied , modestly to propose his doubts even to the Catholick Church . And much more may a whole National Church , nay , the whole body of Protestants do it . Now you very wisely leave out this last clause , that you might take an opportunity to declaim against Luther , Zuinglius , Calvin , &c. for want of modesty . But what pretext could there have been for such virulency , had they been guilty of what you charge them , if you would but have given us all that his Lordship said ; And may not I now therefore more justly return you your own language in the same page upon a far less occasion . That here 's a manifest robbery of part of his Lordships words , for which you are bound to restitution . For his Lordship , as it were , foreseeing this cavil , warily adds that concerning a whole National Church , and the whole body of Protestants ; which you for reasons best known to your self , craftily leave out . But we must excuse our adversary for this slip , though it be an unhandsome one ; For the truth is , he had no other way to hide the guiltiness of his own pen , &c. These are your own words only applied , and that much more justly to your self , for a more palpable fault in the very same page wherein you had accused his Lordship for one of that kind . But you go on further , and supposing the doubts had been modestly proposed , yet this could not at all help the Protestant cause , in regard their doubts were in points of Faith , already determined for such by authority of the Catholick Church ; to question any of which with what seeming modesty soever is sinful , heretical , and damnable . Were it our present business , it were easie to make it appear , that the far greatest part of the matters in Controversie ; were never determined as points of Faith , before the Council of Trent , and , I hope you will not say , that was before the Reformation , or any proposal of doubts ? But , if they had been defined by your Church for matters of Faith , and our great doubt be , How your Church comes to have this power of determining points of Faith , to whom should this doubt be propounded ? to your Church , no doubt then we should hear from her , as now we do from you , That to question it with what seeming modesty soever , is sinful , heretical , ond damnable . And , Is it not then likely that your Church should ever yield to the proposal of doubts ? and you do well to tell us so ; for it will save Protestants a great deal of labour , when they see your Church so incurable , that she makes it sinful , heretical , and damnable , to question any thing she hath determined . Although we do with much more reason assert it to be sinful , heretical , and damnable in your Church , to offer to obtrude erroneous Doctrines on the Faith of the Christian world , as points necessary to be believed , and to urge superstitious practices as the conditions of communion with her . To the place of S. Austin , wherein he saith , That it is a part of most insolent madness , for any man to dispute , Whether that be to be done , which is usually done in and through the whole Catholick Church of Christ. His Lordship answer , 1. Here 's not a word of the Roman Church , but of that which is all over the world , Catholick , which Rome never yet was ; and for all your boast of having often shewn , That the Roman and the Catholick are all one ; I dare leave it to the indifferent Reader , Whether you have not miserably failed in your attempts that way . 2. He answers , That A. C. applies this to the Roman Faith , whereas S. Austin speaks expresly of the rites and ceremonies of the Church , and particularly about the manner of offering upon Maundy-Thursday , whether it be in the morning , or after supper , or both . 3. T is manifest by the words themselves , that S. Austin speaks of no matter of Faith there , Roman , nor Catholick , for he speaks of things done , and to be done , and not for things believed , or to be believed . 4. A right sober man may , without the least touch of insolency or madness , dispute a business of Religion with the Roman , either Church or Prelate , as all men know Irenaeus did with Victor . Now to all this you reply , That the argument still holds à minori ad majus , and reaches to every person that in any matter whatsoever obstinately opposes himself against the Church of God. And is not this an excellent way of arguing from the less to the greater , to argue from a rite or ceremony observed by the Universal Church to a matter of Faith determined by the Roman Church ? This is à minori ad majus , with a witness . But your Reason is as good as your Answer , which is , because there was alwaies some point or matter of Faith involved in every Vniversally practised rite or ceremony of the Church , I pray Sir then , Tell us what the matter of Faith was which lay in the offering on Maundy-Thursday in morning , or after supper ? and by whom this point of Faith was determined ? and and how far it is obligatory ? and whether it be not sinful , heretical , and damnable , so much as modestly to doubt of it ? For all this , you told us , belongs to all matters of Faith determined by the Catholick Church . What remains of this Chapter , need not hold us long , for C's . illation from the Catholick Churches not erring , that therefore it cannot be lawful to separate from the Roman Church , is absurd and illogical ; and depends on that gross mistake that the Roman and Catholick Church are all one , which we have abundantly disproved in the precedent Chapter . What follows concerning the Catholick Churches not erring , and how far that extends , concerning the Catalogue of Fundamentals , and any errours admitted in the Church , being destructive to its Being , because derogatory to Gods Veracity , have been so amply discussed in their proper places , that I find no temptation from any new arguments here suggested , to resume the debate of them . There being then nothing material , which hath not been handled already ; I here conclude this Chapter . CHAP. III. Of keeping Faith with Hereticks . The occasion of this Dispute . The reason why this Doctrine is not commonly defended : Yet all own such Principles from whence it necessarily follows . The matter of fact as to the Council of Constance ; and John Hus opened . Of the nature of the safe-conduct granted him by the Emperour , that it was not a general one , salvâ justitiâ , but particular , jure speciali ; which is largely proved . The particulars concerning Hierom of Prague . Of the safe-conduct granted by the Council of Trent . Of the distinction of Secular and Ecclesiastical Power , and that from thence it follows , that Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . Simancha , and several others fully assert this Doctrine . Of the Invitation to the Council of Trent , and the good Instructions there ; and of Publick Disputation . A. C's Endeavour not only to charge Protestants with the guilt of Schism , but to justifie and clear the proceedings of the Church of Rome towards them , hath led us into a new dispute , how far she is to be trusted in the greatest promises which are made to such whom she accounts Hereticks . Which is occasioned by these words of his , That after this breach was made , the Church of Rome was so kind and careful to seek the Protestants , that she invited them publickly with safe conduct to Rome , to a General Council , freely to speak what they could for themselves : Or , if we take his words , as you give them us , the sense is the same to our purpose ( and therefore you impertinently cavil with his Lordship for not keeping Faith with A.C. ) Which did at first seek to recall them from their Novel Opinions , and after their breach did permit , yea invite them publickly to Rome to a General Council , &c. Upon which his Lordship sayes : Indeed I think the Church of Rome did carefully seek the Protestants ; but I doubt it was to bring them within their net . And she invited them to Rome . A very safe place , if you mark it , for them to come to , just as the Lion ( in the Apologue ) invited the Fox to his own Den. Yea , but there was safe-conduct offered too : Yes , conduct perhaps , but not safe , or safe perhaps , for going thither , but none for coming thence . Vestigia nulla retrorsum . Yea , but it should have been to a General Council : Perhaps so . But was the conduct safe , that was given to a Council which they call General , to some others before them ? No sure , John Hus , and Jerom of Prague burnt for all their safe conduct . And so long as the Jesuits write and maintain . That Faith given is not to be kept with Hereticks . And the Church of Rome leaves this lewd Doctrine uncensured ( as it hath hitherto done , and no exception put in of force and violence . ) A. C. shall pardon us , that we come not to Rome , nor within the reach of Roman Power , what freedom of speech soever he promised us . For to what end freedom of speech on their part , since they are resolved to alter nothing ? And to what end freedom of speech on our part , if after speech hath been free , life shall not . This you call a Theme , which , for the most part , our Adversaries love to dwell upon , as thinking they have some great advantage against us therein . And , Can you blame them for insisting much on that which their lives are concerned in , and it will appear in the prosecution of this subject , that we have this great advantage against you , that we are come to understand your arts so well , as not so easily to be catched by your perfidious subtilties . And as we understand your practices better than to rely on your promises of this nature , so we are not so ignorant of the intrigues of your proceedings , as to suppose that commonly and openly you should defend this Position , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . For thereby you would lose the intent and design of it ; for none would be so silly as to venture themselves into the hands of such , who openly profess , They are not bound to keep Faith with them . For , Do you think that Father Fulgentio would ever have gone to Rome on the safe-conduct most solemnly given by Paul. 5. if he had understood beforehand , with what perfidiousness he should have been dealt with there ; and all under this pretext , That safe-conduct was given for his coming hither , but not for his going thence . Is this the Faith of the Apostolical See ? Is this the Catholick and Roman Faith ? If so , the Roman Faith , before ever it was Christian , was much more infallible ▪ than this ; that never was acquainted with such a perfidious Infallibility . Well then might his Lordship say , The conduct might be safe for going thither , but not for coming thence . Vestigia nulla retrorsum . And so Fulgentio to his sorrow found it . We see therefore , it is very necessary for you to disown this principle as much as possible , till you have occasion to practise it , and then woe be to them to whose lot it falls to make the experiment . Though therefore both publickly and privately , in word and writing , as you tell us , You teach and profess , That Faith is to be kept as well with Hereticks as Catholicks , yet your Adversaries have no great reason to reply on your promises ; when they find your practices apparently to the contrary , and those practices built on such principles which you all own , and contend for , and that notwithstanding , what you confidently say to the contrary , several of your Writers have in terms asserted it . All which shall be made good in this Chapter . And therefore , though you say it , and say it over again , those who know the ambiguity of your expressions , your many reservations , and exceptions which you make , will not be very confident of the honesty of your meaning , by the fairness of your expressions . These are therefore no clamorous accusations , but very sad truths , which the experience of the world , and your dealings have too often taught us ; that at last we are forced to distinguish between a Princes safc-conduct , and an Eccleastical Trepan . For no other , will that appear to be , which was granted by Pope Paul to Fulgentio , or the Emperour , and Council of Constance to John Hus , and Hierom of Prague . If Christ therefore , after he had said , That they should give to Caesar the things that are Caesars , had either denied the payment of tribute , or demanded it himself , Becanus might then say , That was a fit parallel for you in this Controversie , whose open actions do palpably contradict you , when you say , That Faith is to be kept with Hereticks . For the clearing of which , we must first relate the matter of fact in the case of the Council of Constance , and then examine the several evasions you make in vindication of their proceedings , notwithstanding the safe-conduct given by the Emperour and Council . The story then is briefly this ; A Council at Constance being called for redressing abuses in the Church , and putting an end to that Schism , which was between the three Antipopes Gregory 12 , Benedict . 13 , John 23. John Husse is summoned by the Emperour Sigismund to appear before it . And to take away all fears and suspicions of unhandsome dealing , the Emperour grants him a safe-conduct , in which it was expressed , Omni prorsus impedimento remoto , transire , stare , morari , & redire libere permittatis ; that without all manner of hindrance , he should be suffered to come , appear , stay , and return freely . That such a safe-conduct was given by the Emperour , and pleaded by Husse , is agreed on all sides . But notwithstanding this , he had not been above three weeks in Constance , but , contrary to his safe-conduct , he is thrown into prison ; which being done in the Emperours absence , he returns to the Council , and argues the case with them , upon which they pass the decree contained in the 19 Session of that Council , in these words cited in the Margent , which , that you may not quarrel with my interpretation of , I will take your own . This present Sacred Synod declareth , That by whatsoever safe-conduct , granted by the Emperour , Kings , or other Secular Princes , to Hereticks , or such as are defamed for Heresie , no prejudice can arise , no impediment can , or ought to be put to the Catholick Faith , or other Ecclesiastical jurisdiction , but that ( notwithstanding the said safe-conduct ) it may be lawful for any competent and Ecclesiastical Judge to enquire into the errours of such persons , and duly otherwaies proceed against them , and punish them so far as justice shall require , if they shall pertinaciously refuse to revoke their errours ; yea though they come to the place of judgement , relying upon such safe-conduct , and would not otherwise come thither ; nor doth he who so promiseth , remain obliged in any thing , having done what lyes in him . Upon this decree of the Council the Emperour looks on himself , as absolved from his obligation , and not only concurred in the sentence against Husse , but gave order himself about his execution . The Question then is , Whether the Emperour did not break his Faith with John Husse in so doing ; and , Whether the Council did not decree , that neither he , nor any else , were bound to keep it with Hereticks . Although this case be so plain and clear to all persons , who have any sense of justice and honesty , that we dare appeal to the most indifferent persons in the world , Whether it be not a notorious violation of Faith , after a most solemn promise of safe return , to proceed to judgement against the person , who came meerly relying on that promise , and the same person to be the Instrument of his execution , who gave the safe-conduct on which he trusted : And whether the declaring , that such a person is not obliged to keep his promise , because it is a matter of Heresie he had promised in , be not to declare , That no Faith is to be kept with Hereticks . Yet since no actions are so bad , if they tend to your advantage , but you will have something to blind the eyes of the simple with , we must consider what you have to plead in vindication of these proceedings . You tell us then , That the Emperour did not break his Faith with John Husse , and that notwithstanding the safe-conduct given , he was justly burnt . Bold and daring assertions ! but we must enquire into the reasons of them . Two things you seem most to rely on , and the strength of all your Answer depends on them : which being the things , Becanus , and the rest of your party insist on in this case , I shall more closely examine . The first is , From the nature of the safe-conduct given , that it was not such as could hinder justice ; the second is , From the difference of the Secular and Ecclesiastical Power , and that the Emperour could make no promise in prejudice of the Churches Jurisdiction . First , You distinguish of a safe-conduct , which , you say , may be granted two waies ; first , jure communi , when t is given only against unjust violence , salvâ semper justitiâ , provided alwaies that Justice be not impeached : Secondly , jure speciali , when it secures a man against all violence whatsoever , whether just or unjust , and chiefly in that cause for which it is given . In the former manner only , you say , A safe-conduct was granted by the Emperour to John Husse , and by the Council of Constance to Hierom of Prague : In the latter sort , the Council of Trent offered safe-conduct to the Protestants in Germany , &c. No Faith therefore was broken with John Husse ; for , a safe-conduct was only given him jure communi , by which Justice was to remain unimpeachable , since he was only promised to be defended against unjust violence ; which was performed . I grant , a safe-conduct may be given two waies ; the first , is to secure men from all unjust violence , in order to a legal trial ; and this is granted in such cases , when the person accused looks on the Law , as open for him as well as his Adversaries , and puts himself on a fair tryal before equal and indifferent Judges : and in such cases the intent of the safe-conduct is expressed , Damus tibi fidem publicam causam dicendi in judicio contra vim , non contra juris executionem ; as the Formula of it is in the Roman Empire , thence that Imperial Constitution , which prohibits that any safe-conduct be given to the accuser , or the guilty person adversus publicum judicium , sed solum contra vim , against publick justice , but only against violence : but then , these are the safe-conducts which subordinate Officers can only grant ; because these have no power over the life of persons , but they are only to see justice duly administred to all persons , in order to which they may give such safe-conducts as may prevent such things , as may hinder the due execution of Justice . But then further , a safe-conduct may be given with respect to those who are to judge of the cause , i. e. in case a person avoids appearance upon fears that the persons he is summoned before , will presently cast him into prison , or put him to death ; now , if a safe-conduct be granted by him , who hath the absolute power of life and liberty , so as to hinder the execution of any sentence passed , in this case the safe-conduct is full and absolute , and admits of no restrictions or limitations . Now this latter is plainly our present case ; For John Husse had been summoned before to appear at Rome , to vindicate himself in point of Heresie , but suspecting foul dealing , he durst not go : And , Can we in reason think he would ever have gone to Constance , if the Emperour had not granted him such a Conduct as might secure him from his fears , as to his life and liberty ? And therefore , since the Emperour , to whom it only belonged to dispose of both , had granted him so express a safe-conduct , he thought he might securely go . For , To what end or purpose is a safe-conduct granted , if it be not to secure that which the person to whom it was given had most cause to fear ? Now it is apparent , John Husse was not afraid of any unjust violence by the way , for he was so secure as to that , that he left his safe-conduct in the hands of his friends , till he came at Constance , as appears by the unquestionable reports of that story on all hands ; which is an evident argument , that the intent of the safe-conduct was to secure him at Constance , from any injury being done him by the Council . And although the Council might take upon them , not only to judge of Heresie , but to condemn him for it ; yet , as long as the execution of that sentence belonged to the Secular Power , he had reason to think , that whatever the Council might determine , yet the Emperours Faith being solemnly given him , he need not fear the execution of it . For that being in the Emperours power , he was bound by his publick Faith not to give way to it . To make this clear by an Instance ; It is more evident by our Laws , that one who hath taken orders at Rome , coming into the Nation , and being convicted of it , is liable to death , than it was by the Laws then in force , that such who were condemned for Heresie , should be burnt ; Suppose now , that a Priest be summoned by the King to appear before his Courts of Justice , with a safe-conduct , or promise given , that he should come , appear , and return freely , without any hinderance ; Would not you , or any other Romish Priest , think your selves hardly dealt with , and that the King had broken his Faith , if he should not only suffer you to be condemned , but give express order for your execution ; and then tell you , that the safe-conduct was to be understood salvâ justitiâ , without any impeachment of Justice , and that it was only to protect you from all unjust violence ? And , Was not the case just the same here of the Emperour Sigismund , and John Husse ? Was John Husse so ignorant , as not to know they would condemn him for Heresie , when a Council at Rome had condemned him for it already ? Or , Did not he know what course was like to be taken with persons so condemned ? What could he then imagine to be the intent of this safe-conduct , but to secure him from all violence to be done to his person under a pretence of execution of Justice ? And for all this , was not the Emperours Faith violated , when he was not only imprisoned , but burnt , by the Emperours express order , notwithstanding his solemn promise that he should come , appear , and return freely , without any hinderance ? If this be a safe-conduct , it is only such a one as they that go to the Gallows have , a safe-conduct to execution . Besides , that this could not be such a safe-conduct , salvâ justitiá , as you speak of , is manifest from the tenor and words of it . For safe-conducts , being granted in favour of persons , are to be taken in their largest sense , if no limitations be expressed in them ; and it is a Rule among those who should , and do understand these things best , That a safe-conduct is of the nature of a Covenant , and the words of it import a promise , and therefore if they be general , are extended as far as the words will bear . And that all the Doctors do unanimously concurr , that a general safe-conduct of coming to a Judge , or appearing in a Court of Judicature , do import a freedom of departure and going thence . So that we see , if we take the Emperours safe-conduct in the express words of it , it imports much more than such a one as is only salvâ justitiâ ; because it ran in the most general and comprehensive terms , and was granted not by any subordinate Judge , but by the Emperour himself , who was able , as well as bound , to make it good in the most large and extensive sense . But further , if this had been granted only salvâ justitiâ , so that the Council had liberty to proceed on him as they saw good , What made the Emperour take their imprisonment of him so ill , as Nauclerus and others report he did , and that because of the safe-conduct he had given him ? It seems the Emperour wanted Becanus , and you , to have told him , That he never granted any safe-conduct , but what had the reservation of a salvâ justitiâ , and that such justice too , as his greatest enemy must shew him : If he had known this , he needed not have been troubled at that which he made account of , in granting the safe-conduct . Lastly , What need the Council have taken such pains to satisfie the Emperour , by declaring in a decree , that neither he , nor any Prince was bound by their safe-conducts , to hinder Hereticks from being punished , if he had not thought himself obliged to do it , by the safe-conduct he had given ? and if he did think so before the decree of the Council , then certainly there was no salvâ justitiâ understood by him in the safe-conduct he had granted . Thus we see , how on all hands it appears , from Husse's fears and desires , the Emperours power , the nature of safe-conducts , the Emperours own sense of it , and the Councils decree , that this first Answer hath no ground at all , viz. that the safe conduct was granted jure communi , and that it was only to hinder unjust violence , and not the execution of Justice . But besides , you say , John Husse was justly burnt , for two reasons : The first is , For being obstinate in his Heresie ; the second , For having fled , which the Emperour had prohibited in his safe-conduct , under pain of death . I answer , It is not , Whether a man , obstinate in Heresie , may be burnt , which is now the Question , although that may justly bear a dispute too : But , Whether one , suspected for Heresie , and coming to a Council with safe-conduct for coming and returning , may be burnt without violation of Faith ; your first reason then , is nothing to the purpose , and your second as little : First , Because there is no certain evidence at all of Husse's flying ; it not being objected against him by the Emperour , who only upbraided him with his obstinacy in his Heresie , as the cause of his execution ; and withall , if Husse had fled , and had suffered death for that , as you say he ought to have done , he would not have suffered the death proper to Heresie , and not to flying ; nor been accounted ( as by all your own Authours he is ) a sufferer on the account of Heresie . But this being a groundless Calumny , it needs no further confutation . But before we come to your second Answer , the case of Hierom of Prague must be discussed so far as it is distinct from that of John Husse ; who , it seems , was trepanned by a pretended safe-conduct granted him by the Council , and not by the Emperour , wherein , you tell us , that express clause of salvâ semper justitiâ was inserted ( which is another argument that the safe-conduct of the Emperour to Husse was of another nature , because it ran in general terms , without any such clause ) but poor Hierom , who , it seems , was not acquainted with the arts and subtilties of his enemies , but thought them as honest as himself , ventures to Constance upon this safe-conduct : but when he came thither , and began to understand the jugglings of his enemies , he thought to shift for himself by flight , but being taken , was burnt . So that Hierom suffered through his honest simplicity and credulity , not considering what that salvâ justitiâ would mean in his case , which , as they interpreted it , was such another safe-conduct , as known Malefactors have to the place of Justice : but to call it a safe-conduct , in the sense which Hierom apprehended it in , is as proper as to say , A man that is to be executed shall have a Salvo for his life . This was therefore intended , as appears by the event , as a meer trick to bring him within their power ; and so all such safe-conducts granted with those clauses ( by such persons who are to interpret them themselves ) are , and nothing else : For they are the sole Judges what this Justice shall be , Neither can you say then , That Faith was kept with Hierom of Prague : for no such thing as a safe-conduct , truly so called , was intended him ; and when the Emperour was sollicited to grant him one , he utterly denied it , because of the bad success he had in that of John Husse ; and some of the Council being then present with the Emperour , offered to give him a safe-conduct , but they very honestly explained themselves , that it was a safe-conduct for coming thither , but not for going thence again . And so it proved . So that Faith was well given to Hierom of Prague , and as well kept to John Husse . But , say you , Had the Protestants gone to the Council of Trent , upon the safe-conduct granted them by that Council jure speciali , in the second manner , they could not at all have been punished under any pretence of Heresie , without manifest breach of Faith ; which all Catholicks hold to be unlawful . The like may be said of the safe-conduct offered them for going to Rome . But you must better satisfie us , that you look upon this as a breach of Faith , than as yet you have done . For so are your ambiguities , in your expressions of this nature , that men who know your arts , can hardly tell when they have your right meaning . For you may look on all breach of Faith as unlawful , and yet not look on your acting contrary to your express words , in safe-conducts offered to Hereticks , to be a breach of Faith. For you may say , Faith is there only broken , where men are bound to keep it ; but you are not bound to keep it with Hereticks , and that because your obligation to the Church is greater than it can be to Hereticks ; when therefore you have Hereticks in your power , it is an easie matter for you to say , that , were it in any thing else , but in a matter so nearly concerning the Interest of your Holy Mother the Church , you could not but observe it , but your obligation to that is so great , as destroies all other which are contrary to it : and the obligation being destroyed , there is no breach of Faith at all ; and therefore you may hold all breach of Faith unlawful , and yet you may proceed against those whom you account Hereticks , contrary to all engagements whatsoever , and then say , This is no breach of Faith. And the truth is , by your Doctrines of aequivocations , and mental reservations , you have made all manner of converse in the world so lubricous and uncertain , that he who hath to deal with you , especially in matters where the interest of your Church is concerned , had need be wary , and remember to distrust , or else he may repent it afterwards . If you therefore account the Protestants crafty Foxes , in not coming to Rome , or the Council of Trent , it was , because they would not venture too near the Lions Den ; but if you will not account them wise men , for refusing so fair an offer , you will give us leave to think them so , till they see better reason to trust your offers . And the Council of Trent did very well to tell them in their form of safe-conduct , they would not do by them as the Council of Constance did , for therein they shew , how much the Faith of Councils was sunk by that , so that if that were not particularly excepted , no trust would ever be given to them more . But , supposing the safe-conduct of the Council of Trent to have been never so free from suspicion , the Protestants had sufficient reasons not to appear there , as will be manifested afterwards . We come therefore now to your second Answer , in vindication of the Council of Constance , which is this , That by that decree the Council declares , that no Secular Power , how soveraign soever , can hinder the proceedings of the Ecclesiastical Tribunal in causes of Heresie ; for which there is great reason ; and consequently , if the Emperour , or any other Secular Prince , grants a safe-conduct , or makes promise of any thing to the prejudice of that Jurisdiction , it shall not hold . The reason is , because 't is a promise made of a thing not pertaining to the Jurisdiction of that Prince , nor wholly in his power to see performed . To this I answer , 1. That if I understand any thing , this is expresly to say , That no Prince is to keep Faith with Hereticks , and that is it which you are charged with ; and you made use of this distinction , to free your selves from . Now that this is the plain meaning of it , thus appears ; you say in the words immediately after ; But the Council no where teaches , That Faith or safe-conduct given in temporal causes properly pertaining to the Princes Jurisdiction , is not to be kept by all , and to all persons of what condition soever , so far as it is possible . Which is as much as to say , That in any other case but that of Heresie , they are to keep Faith , but not in that : for this of Heresie , is that which you oppose to all Temporal Causes , and challenge it as belonging to an Ecclesiastical Tribunal ; when therefore the Council of Constance decrees , That no Secular Power is obliged by any safe-conduct , to any thing which may hinder the Ecclesiastical Tribunals proceeding in causes of Heresie , what doth it else but declare in express terms , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks , i. e. in any thing relating to their Heresie ; for this , you say , they have nothing to do with : and therefore let Kings and Princes make never so solemn promises and engagements to men suspected of Heresie , to their peril be it , who rely upon them , for they have nothing to do to promise in such matters , and though their Faith be given never so publickly and solemnly , they are not bound to keep it ; nay , they are bound not to keep it : for , if they should , it would be to the apparent mischief and prejudice of the Church . This necessarily follows from your own words , and the distinction here used by you . So that now we need seek no further than your self , and Becanus , for the open avowing of this Principle , That no Prince is bound to keep Faith with Hereticks ; but if he doth promise safe-conduct to them though it be more than he can do , yet the Church can make that good use of it , that by that means she may get the Hereticks under her power ; and when she hath them , it is but then declaring this promise to be null , and she may do with them as she pleases . Neither is it only Becanus , and you , who say this , but it is the received Principle among you , whatever you say or pretend to the contrary ; I mean not , that you say in express terms , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks , but by this distinction of the Secular and Ecclesiastical Power , as you use it , you say that from whence it necessarily follows . But yet I answer 2. Though this distinction should be granted , yet it cannot really excuse the Emperour from violating his Faith. For , I say , he promised nothing but was in his power , which was , to secure him as to life and liberty . Now , although the Emperour had suffered the Ecclesiastical Tribunal , to do what belonged to it , which was to enquire into the charge of Heresie , and to give sentence upon the person , yet the execution belonged wholly to the Secular Power ; as the Council it self acknowledged , when after the sentence of Heresie was pronounced against John Husse , there was nothing of the executive part which was pleaded , as belonging to the Church , but only degradation , and that was performed in the presence of the Council ; upon which the Sacred Synod declares , That they had no more to do with him , but to deliver him over to the Secular Power , and accordingly decrees it to be done . Now when the Synod declares this , Is it not plain , that what concerns his life , doth properly and only belong to the Secular Power ; if therefore the Emperour was bound to do all which lay in him to do , he was effectually bound to secure him as to life and liberty , for both those lay within his power . And therefore , when he gave order for his execution , he was highly guilty of the violation of his Faith ; and if the Council of Constance declared him absolved as to this too , it is yet more evident , that they not only decreed , That no Faith was to be kept with Hereticks in matters concerning the Ecclesiastical Tribunal , but in such as concerned the Secular Power , which is much as to say , Not at all . And by this the vanity of this distinction of the Secular and Ecclesiastical Power is sufficiently manifest , and that it evidently appears , that the Council of Constance did decree , That no Faith was to be kept with Hereticks . And thus I have proved , that his Lordship hath not , as you calumniate him , ignorantly or maliciously wronged the Council , but that no other tolerable sense , besides that which his Lordship saith , can be made of the decree then passed ; and notwithstanding your arts and distinctions , nothing can be more plain , than that John Husse was trepanned into his ruine by the Faith of the Emperour given to him . It can be therefore nothing but either palpable ignorance , or a deceit as gross as trusting your safe-conduct in a matter of Heresie , for you so confidently to assert , That if the Relator had not mangled the words of the Council ( to deceive his Reader ) but set down the decree fairly and fully as it is , the business had been so clear , that it would scarce have any dispute . Whereas his Lordship only sets down the title of the decree , and so he tells you himself , and this he doth as faithfully as may be , and whereas nothing can more evidence the juglings of the Council , than the Decree it self doth , in which nothing is more plain than that , In case of Heresie , no Prince is bound to keep Faith with any persons whatsoever . From the Council of Constance , we proceed to other Authors , to see , whether they do not concurr with it in this Opinion . For this , his Lordship cites Simancha a Spanish Bishop , and a Canonist as well as Civilian , who expresly saith , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks , as neither with Tyrants , Pyrates , or other publick Robbers ; and plainly justifies the proceedings of the Council of Constance in that respect , in that Hereticks by their solemn judgement were burnt , although publick security had been given them . Let us now see , what answer you return to these clear Citations . In general you say , The Bishop was insincere or unadvised in quoting this Author . I wonder wherein : I am sure , not so much as you are in your Answers to him . For , you say Simancha holds not this absolutely and universally , but only in cases , wherein that which is promised cannot be lawfully performed . Hence , say you , Simancha hath these words , Veruntamen ( ut Marius Salomonius ait ) promissa contra Christum fides , si praestetur , perfidia est , If Faith be given against Christ , that is to the dishonour of God , or contrary to the precepts of true Religion , it were perfidiousness to observe it . But the Answer to this is easie : for it appears from Simancha's own grounds , that he supposeth it holds universally , because Faith can never be given to Hereticks , so as that promise can be lawfully performed , because thereby he supposeth it given against Christ , and to the dishonour of God , and therefore concludes , it would be perfidiousness to observe it . And this is evident from Simancha's own grounds , which he gives for it . For , saith he , if Faith be not kept with Tyrants , Pirats , and other Robbers , which kill the body ; much less with Hereticks , who destroy souls : which reason being absolute and universal , his Proposition must be so too . And very consonantly to his former assertions concludes , That if Faith be given them with an Oath , against the publick good , against the salvation of souls , against divine and humane Laws , it is not to be kept ; and it is well known that all Heresies are accounted so by you , and therefore in no case Faith is to be kept with Hereticks . Neither can this possibly be understood meerly of private persons ; for his words are general , and we see he vindicates the proceedings of the Council at Constance upon these grounds , and he quotes Marius Salomonius and Placa , who likewise assert in terms , That Faith given to Hereticks is not to be kept , and makes use of the instance of the Council of Constance to prove it . And Menochius , whom Simancha likewise cites , who was an Italian Canonist , and therefore might well know the practices of Rome in these cases , saith , That Placa expresly holds , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks , which , he saith , he understands so , when Faith is given to the injury of the Catholick Faith : and cites Conradus Brunus to this purpose , That it is not lawful to make such agreements with Hereticks , that they may enjoy the liberty of their own sect . If therefore they must interpret , how far the Faith given tends to the prejudice of the Catholick Faith , we see , how little security can be had from any solemn promise . And Menochius himself asserts the safe-conduct granted by Princes , in case of Heresie to be unlawful , because the inferiour ( as he supposes Princes to be to the Ecclesiastical Tribunal ) cannot secure them who are condemned by the Superiour , and because Kings and Emperours ought rather to destroy Hereticks , than to secure them . And therefore the Council of Constance did well in nulling the safe-conducts granted to Hereticks . And what now is this , but in plain terms to assert , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks ? Neither can you say , as some do , That they are the Canonists , and not the Church of Rome , which assert this : for , besides that the Canonists understand well enough the intrigues and proceedings of the Court of Rome , although it seems they do not conceal them so much as they should do , yet they are not only these who have asserted it , but some great men of your Church , have , upon occasion , expresly said it ; for we are not to expect that this should be avowed as a publick Opinion of your Church , for that were to make it unserviceable to you ; but when you have those whom you call Hereticks at an advantage , then is the time to discover this . So there wanted not some to perswade Charls the fifth , notwithstanding the safe-conduct given to Luther at his coming to Worms , to deal by him as the Council of Constance had done by John Husse , and that upon this very account , That no Faith was to be kept with Hereticks : But the Emperour , and the Princes about him , were persons of too great honour and honesty to hearken to such perfidious Councils . And no meaner a person than Cardinal Hosius , admonishes Henry King of Poland , that he ought not to keep the Faith he had given to the Protestants , and gives this reason for it , That an Oath ought to not be the bond of iniquity . And the Jesuit Possevin is reported to have given the same counsel afterwards to Stephen King of Poland . But these things are , as much as possible , kept from our view , and the Books containing such Doctrines in them , are like the Golden Legends bought up by themselves to prevent our discovery of their frauds and imposture ; and therefore if we cannot instance in those Jesuits , who have expresly taught this Opinion in print , yet that only argues the greater fraud and subtilty of them , who will own and practise such things , which they dare not publickly avow to the world . And yet it appears from the way used by Becanus , and you , in vindication of your selves , that you cannot possibly avoid , the asserting such things from whence it necessarily follows , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . But because the Doctrine it self is grown a matter so odious to the world , being contrary to all principles of humanity and justice , and which , if practised by all those who call each other Hereticks , would overthrow all civil societies ; therefore you dare not but in terms disown it , though it still remains among those Arcana Societatis , those hidden works of darkness , which want only a fair opportunity to discover themselves . But as much as you wipe your mouth , though it be foul enough in saying , That neither the Bishop , nor all his gang , are able to name one of them of that Opinion , to make it appear , how much you have abused your self in these words ; I shall make a short business of it , and name your self for one , and Becanus your Author for another , and refer the Reader to what goes before , for an evidence that you own those Principles from whence it unavoidably follows , That no Faith is to be kept with Hereticks . But , Are the Jesuits indeed grown such honest men , that not one of their number can be named , who assert this Doctrine ? A happy change ! For sure they were not alwaies so ; if we believe that excellent person of as great integrity as learning , and a Romanist too , Jac. Augustus Thuanus in his Elegy in Parricidas , wherewith he concludes his sacred Poems ; in which he speaks great and sad truths of that honest Society ; where he mentions those Cruelties and Assasinations , which were brought into these parts of the world by the Arts and Opinions of a famous Society , which makes nothing of Laws , Faith , Honesty , Religion , to advance that Interest which it hath espoused ; and expresly saith , That they deny Faith to be kept , that by their distinctions and subtilties , they enervate the force of divine commands , they deny obedience to authority , destroy Religion under a pretence of Piety , break engagements , teach the murthering Kings ; and what not ? And yet all this while , not one of all this Society ever taught , That Faith was not to be kept with Hereticks . But whence came then the great disputes , Whether an Oath of Allegiance might be taken to Heretical Princes ? Was it not from hence that Heresie was supposed to dissolve that obligation to obedience , which otherwise men lay under ? And if it doth destroy that Faith which men owe to their Soveraigns , in case of Heresie ; Will it not equally destroy that Faith which Princes promise to their subjects in case of Heresie too ? For what reason can be given for the one , which will not hold for the other also . And who were they , I pray , but those loyal persons the Jesuits , who broached , fomented , and propagated that Doctrine ? Was not Father Creswell a Jesuit , who , under the name of Andreas Philopator , delivers this excellent Doctrine , That the whole School of Divines teach , and it is a thing certain , and of Faith , that any Christian Prince , if he manifestly falls off from the Religion of the Catholick Roman Church , and endeavours to draw others from it , doth by Law of God and man , fall from all power and authority ; and that before the sentence of the Pope and Judge delivered against him ; and that all his subjects are free from the obligation of any Oath to him , of obedience and loyalty , and that they may and ought cast such a one out of his power , as an Apostate and a Heretick , lest he infect others . I might mention many more , who write after the same nature , but I spare you , only this one may serve instead of many ; for he delivers it not only as his own judgement , but the consent of the School , and as a thing most certain , as being of Faith : And will you still say , That no Jesuits own such principles , as , That Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks ? For if Heresie doth thus destroy all obligation to obedience in subjects to Heretical Princes , Will it not much more in Princes toward heretical subjects ? because certainly Princes have a greater power and right to command over subjects , than subjects over them , even in your own case of Heresie . Since this therefore is the avowed Doctrine of the Jesuitical School , perswade whom you can to believe , that you look on an obligation to Faith remaining in a case of Heresie ? Certainly none who understand your principles and practices , will have much cause to rely on your Faith in this particular . So much at present of the Jesuits Integrity , as to this principle of keeping Faith with Hereticks . What you add further about the Council of Constance , and John Husse , and Hierom of Prague , is only serving up the very same matter in somewhat different words ; for there is nothing contained in them but what hath been sufficiently disproved already : for it all depends on the nature of the safe-conduct , and the difference of the Secular and Ecclesiastical Power . His Lordship very pertinently asks , supposing men might go safely to Rome , To what purpose is it to go to a General Council thither , and use freedom of speech , since the Church of Rome is resolved to alter nothing ; and you very pertinently answer , That they were invited thither to be better instructed , and reclaimed from their errours . But , Will no place serve to reclaim them but Rome ? Can they not be as well instructed elsewhere , and by other means , than by being summoned to a General Council . We had thought the intention of General Councils had been to have had free debates concerning the matters which divide the Church . But , it seems the Protestants must have been summoned as guilty persons , i. e. Hereticks , and their Adversaries must have sate as their proper Judges , and such who were accused as the great Innovators , must have believed themselves Infallible , and by your own saying , If an Angel from Heaven had come as a Protestant thither , he would not have been believed ; nay , it had been well he had escaped so , if your power were as great over spirits , as over our grosser bodies . So I suppose John Husse , and Hierom of Prague were invited to Constance to be better instructed ; and it is well we know by their example what you mean by your good instructions , and out of a desire to avoid them , care not how little we appear where our Adversaries not only intend to be Judges , but resolve beforehand to condemn us whatsoever we say : For so you tell us , That Rome , and the Fathers of Trent were resolved to stick to their own Doctrine ( which they call Catholick ) notwithstanding any pretended difficulties or objections brought against it , either by Bishops , or any other person . Your kind invitations then of the Protestants , were wonderful expressions of your Churches civility towards them ; that they might be present to hear themselves condemned , and then escape how they could themselves . The offer of a publick Disputation , his Lordship truly tells you , signifies nothing without an indifferent arbitration , and the impossibility of agreeing on that , renders the other useless ; and only becomes such Thrasonical persons as Campian was , who yet had as little reason as any man to boast of his Atchievements in his disputations . When you therefore say , His Lordship would have some Atheist , Turk or Jew , to fit as indifferent persons ; you shew only your Scurrility , and want of understanding . For his Lordship only insists on the necessity of that , to shew the uselesness of publick Disputations , where such cannot be agreed on , as in this case . And he truly saith , This is a good Answer to all such offers ; that the Kings and Church of England had no reason to admit of a publick Dispute with the English Romish Clergy , till they shall be able to shew it under the Seal or Powers of Rome , that that Church will submit to a Third , who may be an indifferent Judge between us and them ; or to such a General Council as is after mentioned ( not such a one as you would have , wherein the Pope should sit as Head of the Church , for that is to make the greatest Criminal , Judge in his own cause . ) And this , saith he , is an honest , and , I think , a full Answer . And without this , all Disputation must end in Clamour ; and therefore the more publick , the worse . Because , as the Clamour is the greater , so perhaps will be the Schism too . CHAP. IV. The Reformation of the Church of England justified . The Church of Rome guilty of Schism , by unjustly casting Protestants out of Communion . The Communion of the Catholick and particular Churches distinguished . No separation of Protestants from the Catholick Church . The Devotions of the Church of England and Rome compared . Particular Churches Power to reform themselves in case of general Corruption , proved . The Instance from the Church of Judah vindicated . The Church of Rome paralleld with the ten Tribes . General Corruptions make Reformation the more necessary . Whether those things we condemn as errours , were Catholick Tenets at the time of the Reformation . The contrary shewed , and the difference of the Church of Rome before and since the Reformation . When things may be said to be received as Catholick Doctrines . How far particular Churches Power to reform themselves extends . His Lordships Instances for the Power of Provincial Councils in matters of Reformation vindicated . The particular case of the Church of England discussed . The proceedings in our Reformation defended . The Church of England a true Church . The National Synod . 1562. a lawful Synod . The Bishops no intruders in Queen Elizabeths time . The justice and moderation of the Church of England in her Reformation . The Popes Power here , a forcible fraudulent usurpation . HAving thus far examined your Doctrine , of keeping Faith with Hereticks , we now return to the main business concerning Schism . And his Lordship saying , That there is difference between departure out of the Church , and causeless thrusting from you ; and therefore denying that it is in your power to thrust us out of the Church ; You answer by a Concession , That we were thrust out from the Church of Rome , but that it was not without cause : Which , that you might not seem to say gratis , you pretend to assign the causes of our expulsion . So that by your own confession the present division or separation lyes at the Church of Rome's door , if it be not made evident that there were most just and sufficient reasons for her casting the Protestants out of her communion . If therefore the Church of Rome did thrust the Protestants from her communion , for doing nothing but what became them as members of the Catholick Church , then that must be the Schismatical party , and not the Protestants . For , supposing any Church ( though pretending to be never so Catholick ) doth restrain her communion within such narrow and unjust bounds , that she declares such excommunicate , who do not approve all such errours in doctrine , and corruptions in practice , which the Communion of such a Church may be liable to , the cause of that division which follows , falls upon that Church which exacts those conditions from the members of her Communion : That i● , when the errours and corruptions are such as are dangerous to salvation . For in this case , that Church hath first divided her self from the Catholick Church ; for , the Communion of that lying open and free to all , upon the necessary conditions of Christian Communion , whatever Church takes upon her to limit and inclose the bounds of the Catholick , becomes thereby divided from the Communion of the Catholick Church : and all such who disown such an unjust inclosure , do not so much divide from the Communion of that Church so inclosing , as return to the Communion of the Primitive and Vniversal Church . The Catholick Church therefore lyes open and free , like a Common-Field to all Inhabitants ; now if any particular number of these Inhabitants should agree together , to enclose part of it , without consent of the rest , and not to admit any others to their right of Common , without consenting to it , which of these two parties , those who deny to yield their consent ; or such who deny their rights if they will not , are guilty of the violation of the publick and common rights of the place ? Now this is plainly the case between the Church of Rome , and Ours ; the Communion of the Catholick Church lyes open to all such who own the Fundamentals of Christian Faith , and are willing to joyn in the profession of them : Now to these your Church adds many particular Doctrines , which have no foundation in Scripture , or the consent of the Primitive Church ; these , and many superstitious practises , are enjoyned by her , as conditions of her Communion , so that all those are debarred any right of Communion with her , who will not approve of them ; by which it appears , your Church is guilty of the first violation of the Vnion of the Catholick ; and whatever number of men are deprived of your Communion , for not consenting to your usurpations , do not divide themselves from you , any further than you have first separated your selves from the Catholick Church . And when your Church by this act is already separated from the Communion of the Catholick Church , the disowning of those things wherein your Church is become Schismatical , cannot certainly be any culpable separation . For , whatever is so , must be from a Church so far as it is Catholick ; but in our case it is from a Church so far only as it is not Catholick , i. e. so far as it hath divided her self from the Belief and Communion of the Vniversal Church . But herein a great mistake is committed by you , when you measure the Communion of the Catholick Church , by the judgement of all , or most of the particular Churches of such an Age , which supposes that the Church of some one particular Age , must of necessity be preserved from all errours and corruptions , which there is no reason or necessity at all to assert ; and that is all the ground you have for saying , That the separation of Protestants was not only from the Church of Rome , but ( as Calvin confesseth ) à toto mundo , from the whole Christian world , and such a separation necessarily involves separation from the true Catholick Church . Now to this , we answer two things . 1. That we have not separated from the whole Christian World in any thing wherein the whole Christian World is agreed ; but to disagree from the particular Churches of the Christian World in such things wherein those Churches differ among themselves , is not to separate from the Christian World , but to disagree in some things from such particular Churches . As I hope you will not say , That man is divided from all mankind , who doth in some feature or other differ from any one particular man ; but , although he doth so , he doth not differ from any in those things , which are common to all ; for that were to differ from all ; but when he only differs from one in the colour of his eyes , from another in his complexion , another in the air of his countenance , and so in other things ; this man , though he should differ from every particular man in the world in something or other , yet is a man still as well as any , because he agrees with them in that in which they all agree , which is , Humane nature , and differs only in those things wherein they differ from each other . And therefore from the disagreement of the Protestants from any one particular Church , it by no means follows , that they separated from the whole Christian World , and therefore from the true Catholick Church . 2. The Communion of the Catholick Church is not to be measured by the particular opinions and practices of all , or any particular Churches , but by such things which are the proper Foundations of the Catholick Church . For there can be no separation from the true Catholick Church , but in such things wherein it is Catholick ; now it is not Catholick in any thing , but what properly relates to its Being and Constitution . For whatever else there is , however universal it may be , is extrinsecal to the nature and notion of the Catholick Church , and therefore supposing a separation from the Church , in what is so extrinsecal and accidental , it is no proper separation from the Catholick Church . As for Instance ; supposing all men were agreed , that some particular habit should be worn all over the world , will you say , That any number of men who found this habit extremely inconvenient for them , and therefore should disuse it , did on that account separate from humane nature , and ceased to be men by it ? Such is the case of any particular Churches laying aside some customes or ceremonies , which in some one age of the Church , or more , the greatest part of Christian Churches were agreed in the practice of ; for , although this general practice should make men more diligent in enquiry , and careful in what they did ; yet if such a Church having power to govern it self , see reason to alter it , it doth not separate from the Communion of the Catholick Church therein , and therefore doth not cease to be a Church . For there is no culpable separation from the Church Catholick , but what relates to it properly as Catholick ; now that doth not relate to it as Catholick , which it may be Catholick without , now certainly you cannot have so little reason as to assert , that the Church cannot be Catholick without such extrinsecal and accidental agreements . And from hence it follows , That no Church can be charged with a separation from the true Catholick Church , but what may be proved to separate it self in some thing necessary to the Being of the Catholick Church ; and so long as it doth not separate as to these essentials , it cannot cease to be a true member of the Catholick Church . If you would therefore prove , that the Church of England , upon the Reformation , is separated from the true Catholick Church ; you must not think it enough to say , ( which as weakly as commonly is said ) That no one particular Church can be named , which in all things agreed with it ; for that only proves , that she differed from particular Churches in such things wherein they differed from each other , but that she is divided from all Christian Churches in such things wherein they are all agreed , and which are essential to the Being of the Catholick Church ; when you have proved this , you may expect a further Answer . This then can be no cause why your Church should expel the Protestants out of her Communion , but it shews us sufficient cause to believe that your Church had separated her self from the Communion of the Catholick . For which we must further consider , that although nothing separates a Church properly from the Catholick , but what is contrary to the Being of it ; yet a Church may separate her self from the Communion of the Catholick , by taking upon her to make such things the necessary conditions of her Communion , which never were the conditions of Communion with the Catholick Church . As for Instance , Though we should grant , Adoration of the Eucharist , Invocation of Saints , and Veneration of Images to be only superstitious practices taken up without sufficient grounds in the Church , yet since it appears , that the Communion of the Catholick Church was free for many hundred years , without approving or using these things ; that Church which shall not only publickly use , but enjoyn such things upon pain of excommunication from the Church , doth , as much as in her lyes , draw the bounds of Catholick Communion within her self , and so divides her self from the true Catholick Church . For , whatever confines , must likewise divide the Church ; for by that confinement a separation is made between the part confined , and the other , which separation must be made by the party so limiting Christian Communion . As it was in the case of the Donatists , who were therefore justly charged with Schism , because they confined the Catholick Church within their own bounds : And if any other Church doth the same which they did , it must be liable to the same charge which they were . The summ then of this discourse is , That the Being of the Catholick Church lyes in Essentials , that for a particular Church to disagree from all other particular Churches in some extrinsecal and accidental things , is not to separate from the Catholick Church , so as to cease to be a Church ; but still , whatever Church makes such extrinsecal things the necessary conditions of Communion , so as to cast men out of the Church , who yield not to them , is Schismatical in so doing ; for it thereby divides it self from the Catholick Church : and the separation from it , is so far from being Schism , that being cast out of that Church on those terms only , returns them to the Communion of the Catholick Church . On which grounds it will appear , that yours is the Schismatical Church , and not ours . For , although before this imposing humour came into particular Churches , Schism was defined by the Fathers , and others , to be a voluntary departure out of the Church , yet that cannot in reason be understood of any particular , but the true Catholick Church ; for not only persons , but Churches may depart from the Catholick Church ; and in such cases , not those who depart from the Communion of such Churches , but those Churches , which departed from the Catholick , are guilty of the Schism . These things I thought necessary to be further explained , not only to shew , how false that imputation is , of our Churches departing from the true Catholick Church , but with what great reason we charge your Church with departing from the Communion of it ; and therefore not those whom you thrust out of Communion , but your Church so thrusting them out , is apparently guilty of the present Schism . But still you say , Your Church had sufficient cause for the expulsion of Protestants out of her Communion ; and for this you barely repeat your former assertions , and offer not at the proof of one of them ; as though you intended to carry your cause , by the frequent repeating your Declaration . But , Sir , it is the proof of what you say , that we expect from you , and not the bare telling us , That Protestants are Schismaticks , because they are Schismacicks . When you will be at leisure to prove that the Protestants were guilty of Heretical Doctrine , or Schismatical proceedings ; that they raised a new , separate , and mutinous faction of pretended Christians distinct from the one Catholick body of the Church ; by chusing new Pastors , instituting new rites and ceremonies not in their power to do , by Schismatical convening in several Synods , and there broaching new heretical Confessions of Faith ; when I say , You shall think good to prove all , or any one of these , you shall receive so full an Answer as will make it evident , that the Protestants did not depart from the Catholick Churches Doctrine and Communion ; but that the Church of Rome is departed thence , first , by imposing erroneous Doctrines , and superstitious practices , as conditions of Communion , and then by thrusting out all such as would not consent to them . His Lordship disputing the terms on which a Separation in the Church may be lawful , saith , That corruption in manners only , is no sufficient cause to make a separation in the Church . And , saith he , This is as ingenuously confessed for you , as by me . For if corruption in manners were a just cause of actual separation of one Church from another , in that Catholick body of Christ , the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any , since ( as Stapleton grants ) there is scarce any sin that can be thought on by man ( Heresie only excepted ) with which that Sea hath not been fouly stained , especially from eight hundred years after Christ. And he need not except Heresie , into which Biel grants it possible , the Bishops of the Sea may fall . And Stella and Almain grant it freely , that some of them did fall , and so ceased to be Heads of the Church , and left Christ ( God be thanked ) at that time of his Vicars defection , to look to his Cure himself . But you tell us , The discovery of some few motes , darkens not the brightness of the Sunshine ; I wonder what you account Beams , if the Sins of your Popes and others be but motes with you ? We grant , that the Sun himself hath his Maculae , but they are such as do not Eclipse his Light ; we find the Maculae in your Church , but we are to seek for the bright Sunshine : Or , Doth it lye in the service of your Religious Votaries ? For that is the great part of the conspicuous Piety of your Church , which you instance in . But , Is this indeed the bright Sunshine of your Church , that there are so many thousand of both Sexes ( you do well to joyn them together ) who tye themselves by perpetual vows , never to be dissolved by their own seeking ( and therefore doubtless pleasing to God , whether they are able to keep them or no ) and these pray ( if they understand what they say ) and sing Divine Hymns day and night ( which makes the Sunshine the brighter ) which you say is a strange and unheard of thing among Protestants . What , that men and women ( though not in Cloysters ) pray and sing Hymns to God ? no surely . For as the Devotion of our Churches is more grave and solemn , so it is likewise more pious and intelligible . You pray and sing , but how ? Let Erasmus speak , who understood your praying and singing well . Cantiuncularum , clamorum , murmurum ac bomborum ubique plus satis est , si quid ista delectant Superos . Do you think those Prayers and Hymns are pleasing to God , which lye more in the throat than the heart ? And such who have been wise and devout men among your selves have been the least admirers of your mimical , uncouth , and superstitious devotions ; but have rather condemned them as vain , ludicrous things ; and wondered ( as Erasmus said ) what they thought of Christ , who imagined he could be pleased with them . ( Quid sentiunt obsecro de Christo qui putant eum ejusmodi cantiunculis delectari ? ) Are these then the glorious parts of your Devotions , your Prayers and Hymns ? But they pray and sing Divine Hymns day and night : If this be the only excellency of your Devotion ▪ How much are you out-done by the ancient Psalliani and Euchitae , that spent all their time in prayer , and yet were accounted Hereticks for their pains . Still you pray and sing , but to whom ? to Saints and Angels often , to the Virgin Mary with great devotion , and most solemn invocations ; but to God himself , very sparingly in comparison . If this then be the warm Sunshine of your Devotions , we had rather use such , wherein we may be sure of Gods blessing ; which we cannot be in such Prayers and Hymns which attribute those honours to his creatures , which belong wholly to himself , But you not only sing and pray , but can be very idle too ; and the number of those men must be called Religious Orders , and the Garment of the Church is said by you to be imbroidered by the variety of them ; and for this , Psalm 44.10 . is very luckily quoted . And are those indeed the ornaments of your Church , which were become such sinks of wickedness , that those of your Church , who had any modesty left were ashamed of them , and call'd loud for a Reformation . Those were indeed such Gardens wherein it were more worth looking for useful or odoriferous flowers ( as you express it ) than for Diogenes to find out an honest man in his croud of Citizens . Therefore not to dispute with you the first Institutions of Monastick life , nor how commendable the nature of it is , nor the conveniencies of it , where there are no indispensable vows ; the main things we blame in them , are , the restraints of mens liberties , whatever circumstances they are in , the great degeneracy of them in all respects from their Primitive Institutions , the great snares which the consciences of such as are engaged in them , are almost continually exposed to , the unusefulness of them in their multitudes to the Christian world , the general unserviceableness of the persons who live in them , the great debaucheries which they are subject to , and often over-run with ; and if these then be the greatest Ornaments of your Churches Garments , it is an easie matter to espy the spots which she hath upon her . What you add concerning the good lives of Papists , and bad of Protestants , if taken universally , i● as unjust as uncharitable ; if indefinitely , it shews only that not th● particular lives of men on either side , but the tendency of the Doctrine , to promote or hinder the sanctity of them , is here to be regarded . And to that you speak afterwards , but in a most false and virulent manner , when you say , That though sins be committed among you , they are not defended or justified as good works ; whereas , among Protestants , Darkness it self is called Light , and the greatest of all sins , viz. Heresie , Schism , Sacriledge , Rebellion , &c. together with all the bad spawn they leave behind them , are cryed up for perfect Virtue , Zeal , good Reformation , and what not ? I doubt not but you would be ready to defend and justifie this open Raillery of yours , and call it a good work , notwithstanding what you said before . If we had a mind to follow you in such things , How easie a matter were it to rip up all the frauds , impostures , villanies of all sorts and kinds which have been committed by those who have sate in your Infallible Chair , and charge them all on your Church , with much more justice than you do the miscarriages of any under the name of Protestants . For the Protestant Churches disown such persons , and condemn those practices with the greatest indignation ; whereas you excuse , palliate , and plead for the lives of the Popes , as much as you dare , and not out-face the Sun at Noon , which hath laid open their Villanies . Where do the Principles of Protestants incourage or plead for , Heresie , Schism , Sacriledge , Rebellion , &c. much less cry them up as Heroicall actions ? Doth not the Church of England disown and disclaim such things to the uttermost ? Have not her sufferings made it appear , how great a hater she is of Heresies , Schisms , Sacriledge , and Rebellion ? Did she ever cry up those for Martyrs , who died in Gun-powder treasons ? Did she ever teach it lawful to disobey Heretical Princes , and to take away their lives ? Yet these things have been done by you , and the doers of them not condemned , but rather fomented and incouraged , as zealous promoters of the Holy See , and most devout Sons of the Church of Rome . Cease therefore to charge the guilt of persons disowned by the Church of England upon her ; when you are unwilling to hear of the faults of those persons among your selves , whom you dare not disown , I mean your Popes and Jesuits . Leaving therefore these unbecoming Railleries of yours , and that which occasioneth them , viz. corruption of manners ; we come to consider that , which is more pertinent to our purpose , viz. errours in Doctrine ; which his Lordship truly assigned as the ground of the Reformation , and not only that there were doctrinal errours in your Church , but that some of the errours of the Roman Church were dangerous to salvation . For it is not every light errour in disputable Doctrine and points of curious speculation , that can be a just cause of separation , in that admirable body of Christ , which is his Church , or of one member of it from another . But , that there are errours in Doctrine , and some of them such as most manifestly endanger salvation in the Church of Rome , is evident to them that will not shut their eyes . The proof ( his Lordship saith ) runs through the particular points , and so is too long for this discourse . Now to this you manfully answer , That in vain do they attempt to reform the Church of what she can never be guilty . Which , if it depends on your Churches Infallibility ( which is largely disproved already ) must needs fall to the ground with it . And it is an excellent Answer when a Church is charged actually with erring , to say , She doth not erre , because she cannot : Which is all that you give us here . But if you prove it no better than you have done , the Heretical and Schismatical obstinacy is like to be found in that Church which in her errours challenges Infallibility . The Question now comes to this , Whether , errours being supposed in the Doctrine , and corruptions in the Communion of a Church , when the General Church would not reform , it was not lawful for particular Churches to reform themselves ? To this his Lordship answers affirmatively , in these words . Is it then such a strange thing , that a particular Church may reform it self , if the general will not ? I had thought , and do so still , that in point of Reformation of either Manners or Doctrine , it is lawful for the Church , since Christ , to do as the Church before Christ did , and might do . The Church before Christ consisted of Jews and Proselytes : This Church came to have a separation , upon a most ungodly Policy of Jeroboams , so that it never pieced together again . To a Common Council to reform all , they would not come . Was it not lawful for Judah to reform her self , when Israel would not joyn ? Sure it was , or else the Prophet deceives me , that sayes expresly , Though Israel transgress , yet let not Judah sin . And S. Hierom expounds it of this very particular sin of Heresie and Errour in Religion . After which he proves , That Israel , during this Separation , was a true Church , which we shall insist on , when we have considered what Answer you return to his Lordships Argument ; which lyes in these two things ; First , That Judah did not reform her self . Secondly , That Judah is not the Protestant party , as his Lordship supposeth it to be . First , You say , Judah did not reform her self . For Juda being the orthodox Church , united with her Head the High Priest , and not tainted with any Doctrinal errours , What need was there of her Reformation ? And so the meaning of that place , Though Israel transgress , yet let not Juda sin , is rather against , than for him , because the sense is rather , Let not Juda fall into Schism , though Israel does , than , let Judah reform her self . But if it appears that Judah had corruptions crept into her , as well as Israel had , though not so great , and universal , then it follows , that by these words Judah had power to reform her self . And the antecedent is clear to any one who takes the pains to read the Scripture , and compare the places in it , more than it seems you do . For , Doth not this very Prophet check Judah as well as Israel for transgressing Gods Covenant ? Doth he not say , That God had a Controversie with Judah , and would punish Jacob according to his waies ? And for all this , Was there no need of Reformation in the Church of Judah ? Indeed in one place it is said , That Judah ruleth with God , and is faithful with his Saints ; but then that is to be understood of Judah , when she had reformed her self in the daies of Hezekiah : for surely you will not say , That Judah did not stand in need of Reformation , when Hezekiah began his Reign ; for it is said of him , That he removed the high places , and brake the Images , and cut down the groves . And were not these , things which wanted Reformation , think you ? If we consider the times of those three Kings before Hezekiah , in which Hosea prophesied ; we shall see , what need there was of Reformation among them , and those were Vzziah , Jotham , and Ahaz ; of the time of Vzziah called Azariah , in the Book of Kings it is said , That the high places were not removed , but the people sacrificed and burnt Incense still on the high places ; the same is affirmed of the time of Jotham in the same Chapter ; so that though these Princes were good themselves , yet there were many corruptions still among the people . But of Ahaz it is said expresly , That he walked in the way of the Kings of Israel ; and he sacrificed and burnt Incense in the high places , and on the hills , and under everygreen tree . Chuse now which of these three you please ( for it is most improbable those words , considering the long time of Hosea's Prophecy , should be spoken in the time of Hezekiah the last of the four Kings he prophesied under ) And will you tell us again , That the Church of Judah needed no Reformation ? But you offer at a reason for it , Because she was united with her Head the High-Priest at Hierusalem . So then , belike as long as Judah and the High-Priest were united , she could be guilty of no Doctrinal Errours : No , not although she should pronounce Christ a blasphemer , and condemn him to be crucified as a malefactor ; for then certainly Judah and the High-Priest were united . But , I know you will say , You spake this of the time before the Messias was come . And was it then true , that as long as Judah was united with her Head , the High-Priest , there was no need of Reformation ? What think you then of the time of Ahaz , when Vzziah the Priest built an Altar at the command of Ahaz , according to the pattern of the Altar of Damascus , contrary to Gods express Law : yet , according to you , as long as Judah was united with her Head , the High-Priest , there was nothing which needed Reformation . And , although it be plainly affirmed , that Judah kept not the commands of the Lord their God , but walked in the statutes of Israel which they had made ; yet you , who , it seems , knew Judah's Innocency better than God , or the Prophets did , say very magisterially , That as long as she was united with her Head the High-Priest , What need , I pray , was there of her Reformation ? And this being the case of Judah , I may easily grant you , That Judah is not the Protestant party , but that of the Roman Church , i. e. while Judah was under her corruptions ; and yet , you say , She needed no Reformation , she is the fittest parallel you could think of for your Church ; but we pretend to no parallel between Judah and the Protestant party , in not needing a Reformation , but in her power to reform her self . Which we say still , that she had , though Israel would not joyn with her , by virtue of these words of the Prophet , Though Israel transgress , yet let not Judah sin : thereby manifesting , that though the greatest part was degenerated in the ten Tribes , yet Judah might prevent the same in her self , by reforming those abuses which were crept among them ; And therefore the sense of those words , Let not Judah sin , must in this case imply a power to reform her self . If therefore we speak of Judah degenerated , we grant the parallel lyes wholly between Judah and the Church of Rome ; for , although there were great corruptions in Judah , and as great in your Church , yet with the same reason you say , That neither needed Reformation : But if we speak of Judah reforming her self under Hezekiah , then we say , The parallel lyes between Judah , and the Protestant party ; whatever you say to the contrary . But you shrewdly ask , If you be Judah , Who , I pray , are the revolted ten Tribes ? Who are of Jeroboams Cabal ? Even they who set up the Calves at Dan and Bethel : Such who worship Images instead of the true God ; though they intend them only as Symbols of the Divine Presence ; for no more did Jeroboam and the Israelites intend by their Calves , and there is no pretence which you use to justifie your selves from Idolatry , but will excuse Jeroboam , and the ten Tribes from it . If the Protestant party then be Judah ; it is easie finding out the revolted ten Tribes , and Jeroboams Cabal , the Court of Rome answering to this , as the Church of Rome doth to the other . But we cannot be Judah , because we left the Catholick Jerusalem , that is Rome the City of Peace : By whom , I pray , was Rome christened , The Catholick Jerusalem ? For if we consider the worship there used , and the politick ends of it , it much more looks like Samaria , or Dan , and Bethel . If Rome be our Catholick Jerusalem , shew us , When God made choice of that , for the peculiar place of his Worship ? Where we are commanded to resort thither for Divine Worship ? When God placed his Name there , as he did of old in Jerusalem ? When you have shewed us these things , we may think the worse of our selves for leaving Rome , but not before . And , let the world judge , Whether it be more likely one should meet with the worship of Golden Calves at Rome , or among the Protestants ? It is you who have found out new Sacrifices , new Objects of Worship , new Rites and Ceremonies in it , new Altars , and consequently new Priests too ; and yet for all this , you must be orthodox Judah , which needed no Reformation ? And who , I pray , do in point of obedience most resemble the ten Tribes ? Have not you set up a spiritual Jeroboam , as a new Head of the Church , in opposition to the Son of David ? And that you may advance the Interest of this spiritual Head , you raise his authority far above that of Kings , and Temporal Princes , whom you ought to be subject to ; declaring it in his power to excommunicate , depose , and absolve subjects from obedience to them . And therefore is not the parallel between the ten Tribes , and the Church of Rome , very pat , and much to the purpose ? But when you would seem to return this upon us by a false and scurrilous parallel between Jeroboam , and that excellent Princess Queen Elizabeth in the Reformation of the Church of England , you only betray the badness of your cause , which makes detractions so necessary to maintain it : For as her title to the Crown was undoubted , so her proceedings in the Reformation were such as are warranted by the Law of God , and the Nation ; and her carriage in her reign towards Jesuits and Priests , no other than what the apparent necessity of her own and her Kingdoms preservation put her upon . But if she must be accounted like Jeroboam , for banishing Priests and Jesuits often convicted of treasonable practices , upon pain of death if they were found in England ; What must we think of the Catholick Jerusalem the City of Peace , that sweet and gentle Mother the Church of Rome , that hath carried her self so peaceably towards those who have dissented from her ? Witness the blood of so many hundred thousands which she hath imbrued her hands in , meerly for opposing her doctrines and superstitions ; witness that excellent School of Humanity the Inquisition , and the easie Lessons she teaches those who come under her discipline there ; witness the proceedings in England in the daies of Queen Mary ; and then let any judge if the parallel must be carried by cruelty towards dissenters , which of their two Reigns came the nearest that of Jeroboam . The only true words then that you say , are , but enough of this parallel ; and more than enough too of such impudent slanders against the memory of that famous Queen : But your Church would have been more unlike the ten Tribes , if there had not been a lying Prophet there . You dispute very manfully against his Lordship , for asserting , That Israel remained a Church after the separation between Judah and the ten Tribes ; and yet , after you have spent many words about it , you yield all that he asserts ; when you say , That in a general sense they were called the people of God , as they were Abrahams seed , according to the flesh , by reason of the promise made to Abraham , I will be a God to thee , and to thy seed after thee . And what is there more than this , that his Lordship contends for ? for he never dreamt that the ten Tribes were Abraham's seed according to the Spirit ; but only sayes , That there was salvation for those thousands that had not bowed their knees to Baal , which cannot be in the ordinary way where there is no Church . And if , as you say , Abrahams seed only according to the Spirit , i. e. the faithful make the true Church ; then it follows , Where there were so many faithful , there must needs be a true Church . And thus for any thing you have said to the contrary , his Lordships argument from the case of Judah holds for every particular Churches power to reform it self , when the General will not reform . His Lordship further argues , That to reform what is amiss in Doctrine or Manners , is as lawful for a particular Church , as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholick in either . And your Question , Quô judice ? lies alike against both . And yet , I think , saith he , It may be proved , that the Church of Rome , and that as a particular Church , did promulgate an orthodox truth , which was not then Catholickly admitted in the Church ; namely , the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. If she erred in this fact , confess her errour ; if she erred not , Why may not another particular Church do as she did ? From whence he inferrs , That if a particular Church may publish any thing that is Catholick where the whole Church is silent ; it may reform any thing that is not Catholick , where the whole Church is negligent , or will not . Now to this you answer , 1. That this procession from the Son , was a truth alwaies acknowledged in the Church ; but what concerns that , and the time of this Article being inserted into the Creed , have been so amply discussed already , that I shall not cloy the reader with any repetition , having fully considered whatever you here say concerning the Article it self ▪ or its addition to the Creed . 2. You answer , That the consequence will not hold , that if a particular Church may in some case promulgate an orthodox truth , not as yet Catholickly received by the Church , then a particular Church may repeal , or reverse any thing that the whole Church hath already Catholickly and definitively received ? Surely no. Yet this ( say you ) is his Lordships , and the Protestants case . You do well to mention an egregious fallacy presently after these words ; for surely this is so . For doth his Lordship parallel the promulgating something Catholick , and repealing something Catholick together ? Surely no. But the promulgating something true , but not Catholickly received with the reforming something not Catholick . Either therefore you had a mind to abuse his Lordships words , or to deceive the reader by beging the thing in Question , viz. that all those which we call for a Reformation of , were things Catholickly and definitively received by the whole Church : which you know we utterly deny . But you go on , and say , That thence it follows not , that a particular Church may reform any thing that is not Catholick , where the whole Church is negligent , or will not , because this would suppose errour , or something uncatholick , to be taught or admitted by the whole Church . To put this case a little more plainly by the former Instance ; Suppose then that the Worship of God under the symbols of the Calves at Dan and Bethel , had been received generally as the visible worship of the Tribes of Judah , and Benjamin , as well as the rest ; Doth not this Answer of yours make it impossible that ever they should return to the true Worship of God ? For this were to call in question the truth of Gods Promise to his Church ; and to suppose something not Catholick to be received by the whole Church . And so the greater the corruptions are , the more impossible it is to cure them ; and in case they spread generally , no attempts of Reformation can be lawful : which is a more false and paradoxical Doctrine than either of those which you call so . And the truth is , such pretences as these are , are fit only for a Church that hateth to be reformed ; for if something not good in it self , should happen in any one age to overspread the visible Communion of all particular Churches , this only makes a Reformation the more necessary ; so far is it from making it the more disputable . For thereby those corruptions grow more dangerous , and every particular Church is bound the more to regard its own security in a time of general Infection . And if any other Churches neglect themselves , What reason is it that the rest should ? For , any or all other particular Churches neglecting their duty , is no more an argument , that no particular Church should reform it self , than that if all other men in a Town neglect preserving themselves from the Plague , then I am bound to neglect it too . But you answer , 3. That all this doth not justifie the Protestants proceedings , because they promulged only new and unheard of Doctrines , directly contrary to what the Catholick Church universally held and taught before them for Catholick Truths . This is the great thing in Question ; but I see , you love best the lazy trade of begging things , which are impossible to be rationally proved . But yet you would seem here to do something towards it in the subsequent words ; For about the year of our Lord 1517. when their pretended Reformations began , was not the real presence of our Saviours body and blood in the Eucharist , by a true substantial change of Bread and Wine , generally held by the whole Church ? Was not the real Sacrifice of the Mass then generally believed ? Was not Veneration of Holy Images , Invocation of Saints , Purgatory , Praying for the dead , that they might be eased of their pains , and receive the full remission of their sins generally used and practised by all Christians ? Was not Free will , Merit of good works , and Justification by Charity , or inherent Grace , and not by Faith only , universally taught and believed in all Churches of Christendom ? Yea even among those who in some few other points dissented from the Pope , and the Latin Church ? To what purpose then doth the Bishop urge , that a particular Church may publish any thing that is Catholick ? This doth not justifie at all his Reformation ; he should prove that it may not only add , but take away something that is Catholick from the Doctrine of the Church ; for this the pretended Reformers did , as well in England as elsewhere . His Lordship never pretends , much less disputes , that any particular Church hath a power to take away any thing that is truly Catholick ; but the ground why he supposeth , such things as those mentioned by you , might be taken away , is , because they are not Catholick ; the Question then is between us , Whether they were Catholick Doctrines or not : this you attempt to prove by this medium , Because they were generally held by the whole Church at the time of the Reformation . To which I answer , 1. If this be a certain measure to judge by , what was Catholick and what not ; then what doth not appear to have been Catholick in this sense , it was in our Churches power to reject , and so it was lawful to reform our selves as to all such things which were not at the time of the Reformation received by the whole Church . And what think you now of the Popes Supremacy , your Churches Infallibility , the necessity of Coelibate in the Clergy , Communion in one kind , Prayer in an unknown tongue , Indulgences , &c. Will you say , That those were generally received by the Church at the time of the Reformation ? If you could have said so , no doubt you would not have omitted such necessary points , and some of which gave the first occasion to the Reformation . If then these were not Catholickly received , a particular Church might without Schism reject them , and so the Church of England is sufficiently vindicated from Schism by your self , as to these points here mentioned ; which you willingly omitted , because you could not but know how far they were from being universally received in all Churches in Christendom ? 2. As to those things which you insist on , you give no sufficient evidence at all , that they were received by the whole Church as Catholick Doctrines . For , so far it is from appearing , that these were held as Catholick Doctrines by all Churches in the Christian world ( for then you do most unreasonably condemn the Greek , and Abyssine Churches , &c. for Heresie or Schism , if they owned all Catholick Doctrines ; and they must do so , if they agreed with your Church in all these things which are the only Doctrines you mention as Catholick , in opposition to such whom you condemn for Heresie or Schism ; and if the agreement of all Churches be the measure of what is Catholick , then those Doctrines cannot be so , which those great Churches differ from you in , by your own argument ) but , so far is it , I say , from appearing , that these were held so by all Churches in Christendom , that you cannot prove they were so held in the Church of Rome her self , before the Reformation . The Church of Rome I take here in the largest sense , as it takes in all such who were the visible members of her Communion . Now , I hope you will not say , that such Doctrines are received as Catholick Doctrines , which are imbraced only by a party in your Church , another party opposing it , both which still remain members of your Communion ; for whatever is received as a Catholick Doctrine ( according to you ) is so received , that those who deny or doubt of it , do thereby become no members of the visible Communion of that Church ; which is by the Churches so declaring her self in those points , that she admits none to her Communion , but upon the acknowledgement of them . Now , Will you say , This was the case of your Church , as to these Doctrines at the beginning of the Reformation ? Were Transubstantiation , real Sacrifice of the Mass , Veneration of Images , Invocation of Saints , Purgatory , &c. so defined then by your Church to be Articles of Faith , that whoever did not assent to them , was declared excommunicate , and cast out of your Church ? If not , it is impossible , upon your own grounds , to prove , that these were universally held and believed as Catholick Doctrines of your Church . I do not say , As truly Catholick Doctrines in themselves ; for , whatever your Church defines concerning them , they are not more or less so in themselves for your Churches definition ; but , I say , you cannot assert that these were held by your Church to be Catholick Doctrines , till they were defined to be such . For , according to your principles , that which differenceth a Catholick Doctrine from a particular Opinion , is the Churches Definition ; before then the Church had passed a definition in these points , they could not be held as Catholick Doctrines . To make this somewhat clearer , because it is necessary for undeceiving those who are told , as you tell us here , That at the Reformation we rejected such things which were universally owned for Catholick Doctrines , which is so far from being true , that it is impossible they should be owned for such by the Church of Rome upon your own principles . For , I pray , tell us , Are there not several sorts of Opinions among you at this day , none of which are pretended to be Catholick Doctrines ? and this you constantly tell us , when we object to you your dissentions about them . As for Instance , the Popes personal Infallibility , the Superiority of Pope over General Councils , the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin , the Disputes about Praedestination , &c. when we tell you of your differences in these points , you answer , That these hinder not the Vnity of the Church , because these are only in matters of Opinion ; and that it is not de fide , that men should hold either way . When we demand the reason of this difference concerning these things , your Answer is , That the Church hath defined some things to be believed , and not others ; that what the Church hath defined , is to be looked on as Catholick Doctrine , and the denyers of it are guilty of Heresie ; but where the Church hath not defined , those are not Catholick Doctrines , but only at best but pious Opinions , and men may be good Catholicks , and yet differ about them . I pray , tell me , Is this your Doctrine , or , is it not ? If not , there may be Hereticks within your Church , as well as without : if it be your Doctrine , apply it to the matters in hand . Were these things defined by the Church at the beginning of the Reformation ? If they were , produce those Definitions for all those things which you say were owned as Catholick Doctrines then : that we may see , that at least in the judgement of your Church they were accounted so . Tell us , when and where those Doctrines were defined before the Council of Trent ? and , I hope you will not say , that was before the beginning of the Reformation . If then there were no such definitions concerning them , they could not by your Church be accounted as Catholick Doctrines ; at the most , they could be but only pious Opinions , as that of the Popes Infallibility among you is , and consequently men might be Catholicks still , though they disputed or denied them . And how then come the Protestants to be accounted Hereticks in their Reformation , if upon your own principles , those things which they denied were then no Catholick Doctrines : Though you should therefore prove more than you have done , That these points of Doctrine were generally received at the time of the Reformation , yet that by no means proves that they were Catholick Doctrines , unless you make it impossible that meer Opinions should be generally received in your Church . For , if any thing may be generally received in the nature of an Opinion , you cannot prove from the bare general reception , that it was a Catholick Doctrine : unless you would attempt to prove it by the notion under which it was received , Whether as an Opinion , or a Catholick Doctrine . But then you must remember to prove these things , 1. That all those who did receive it , received it under that notion ; as for instance , In any one of those Articles by you mentioned , Transubstantiation , Invocation of Saints , &c. you must first prove , That all who were in your Churche's Communion did believe those things ; which it is impossible for you to do , unless you could prove , that none could be of your Church , unless they believed them ; which is again impossible to be done , unless your Church had so defined those things , that they ceased to be members of it who did not believe them . Thus , we see , your first task is rendred impossible , viz. to know , Whether all in your Church held these Doctrines or no ; but , suppose you knew this , it falls short of your purpose , unless you can prove , that all those who held these things , did not hold them as bare Opinions , but as Catholick Doctrines ; and this is again as impossible as the former ; for , How can you tell , whether they judged these things to be so , unless you knew what their Rule was whereby they judged of Catholick Doctrines ? If you knew their Rule , How can you tell , Whether they made a right Vse of it or no ? or , Whether they made any Use at all of it ? or , Whether they did not take up such Opinions by prejudice , education , the judgement of others , and several other waies , without examining of what nature or importance the things were . If you think you have a certain Rule to judge of Catholick Doctrines by , you must prove that they had the same Rule , and looked upon it as such too : otherwise they might not use it for those ends , nor be governed at all by it . When you will therefore prove any Doctrines to be Catholick , by being generally received , you must remember what brave impossibilities you have undertaken . But , suppose you could master this too , and prove , that men generally received these as Catholick Doctrines ; yet , before you can prove , that these are Catholick Doctrines from thence , you have a further task yet upon you , which is , to prove it impossible that these men should be out in their judgement concerning the nature of an Opinion , and that they could not look on any thing as a Catholick Doctrine , but what was really so . For , if they may be mistaken in their judgement , we are as far to seek as ever , for knowing what are Catholick Doctrines , and what not . You must therefore prove the judgement of all these persons infallible concerning what are Catholick Doctrines , and what not : And by that time , the Pope will return you little thanks for your pains , in making every member of your Church as infallible as himself . If it be then so impossible to prove , that these were received as Catholick Doctrines , either from any definition of your Church , or from the general reception of them among the members of it , you see , what little reason you had to say , That the Protestants at the beginning of the Reformation , did take away something that was Catholick from the Doctrine of the Church . Which is notoriously false and inconsistent with your own principles . If we should therefore grant , that Transubstantiation , Purgatory , &c. were generally owned in your Church at the time of the Reformation , the utmost you can prove , is , only that they were owned as particular Doctrines by particular men , but not that they were owned as the Catholick Doctrines of your Church . And therefore we deny not , but that party and faction in your Church which owned and contended for these , had got the upper-hand of the other , before the time of the Reformation , so that those who doubted of , or denied them , durst not appear so publickly as their adversaries did ; but they were but a party , and a faction still , and there were many outward members of your Church , who groaned under the abuses and tyrannies of the prevailing faction , and call'd loud for a Reformation . As appeared not only by the open testimonies of some against such Doctrines ; the sad complaint of others for want of Reformation ; but by the general sense of the necessity of it , at the time when it was set upon , the great applause it met with among all persons who allowed themselves liberty to enquire into things , the general consent of the main bodies of those who set about reforming themselves in the main Articles of Christian Doctrine , and unanimous opposition to those erroneous Opinions which you call Catholick Doctrines . So that these were not at the time of the Reformation , so much as the owned Catholick Doctrines of the Roman Church ; but the Opinions of a prevailing Faction in it : and therefore the disowning them , is no rejecting any thing Catholick , but rejecting the opinions and practices of a tyrannical and usurping Faction . There must be then a great deal of difference put between the State and Doctrine of the Church of Rome , before the beginning of the Reformation , and since , especially since the Council of Trent . For then these Doctrines were owned by a Faction , but yet there might have been communion with that Church , without believing them to be Catholick Doctrines ; and no doubt , many pious souls went to Heaven without believing any of these things , ( viz. such who believed and improved the common principles of Christianity , without regarding the erroneous Doctrines , or superstitious Practices of those among whom they lived ) but upon the first stirrings towards a Reformation , the Court of Rome was so far from reforming the abuses which were complained of , that they sought to inforce them with the greatest severity upon all persons , thundering out Excommunications against all such who should question or dispute them . By which means those who might have lived peaceably before within the external Communion of that Church , without consenting to the errours of it , are now forced out of it , unless they would approve of such things which their consciences detested ; in comparison with the peace of which , they accounted not their lives to be dear to them , as many thousands of them made it appear in several Countries . This is the true and just account of the state of things at the beginning of the Reformation ; but afterwards , when , through the necessity of the Pope's affairs , a Council was summoned , and all the arts imaginable were made use of , to steer that grand affair for the Interess of the Court of Rome ; a new scene of affairs appears in the Christian world : those Doctrines which before were owned only by particular men , are defined by Pope and Council , to be the Catholick Doctrines of the Roman Church , and all those Anathematized who will not own them . By which means the Roman Church is become it self that party and faction , which only prevailed in it before but with reluctancy and opposition ; and now , none are looked on as members of that Church , but such as own the definitions of that Council in point of Doctrine . Which makes it vastly to differ from what it was before , as to the terms of its Communion , and the state of the persons who remain in it ; who can neither enjoy that freedom in judgement which they might use before , nor yet can pretend those excuses for not knowing the errours and corruptions of that Church , which might have prevented obstinacy in them before . So that upon the whole it appears , that the Protestants in the beginning of the Reformation , were so far from taking away any thing that was received as a Catholick Doctrine , by all Christian Churches , that they did not reject any thing which could be looked on as the Catholick Doctrine of the Church of Rome ; and consequently that the Protestants were so far from a wilful separation from the Church of Rome , that they were driven out by a prevalent Faction , which imposed those things which had been before only the errours of particular persons , as the Catholick Doctrines of that Church , and the necessary conditions of Communion with her . 3. I may answer yet further , That it is not enough to prove any Doctrine to be Catholick , that it was generally received by Christian Churches in any one Age ; but it must be made appear , to have been so received from the Apostles times . So that if we should grant , that these Doctrines were owned for Catholick , not only by the Church of Rome , but all other Christian Churches ( so far as it can be discerned by their Communion ) yet this doth not prove these Doctrines so owned to be truly Catholick , unless you can first prove , that all the Christian Churches of one Age can never believe a Doctrine to be Catholick , which is not so . You see therefore your task increases further upon you : for , it is not enough to say , That A. D. 1517. such and such Doctrines were looked on as Catholick , and therefore they were so ; but that for 1517. years , successively from the Apostles to that time , they were judged to be so , and then we shall more easily believe you . When you will therefore prove Transubstantiation , the Sacrifice of the Mass , Image-worship , Invocation of Saints , or any other of the good Doctrines mentioned by you , in a constant tradition from the Apostles times to have been looked on as Catholick Doctrines , you may then say , That Protestants in denying these , did take away something Catholick from the Doctrine of the Church ; but , till that time , these Answers may abundantly suffice . We now come closer to the business of the Reformation ; but , before we examine the particulars of it , the general grounds on which it proceeded , must somewhat further be cleared , which his Lordship tells you , are built upon the power of particular Churches reforming themselves , in case the whole Church is negligent , or will not ; to which you say , That you grant in effect as great power as the Bishop himself does , to particular Churches , to National and Provincial Councils , in reforming errours and abuses either of doctrine or practice : only we require that they proceed with due respect to the chief Pastor of the Church , and have recourse to him in all matters and decrees of Faith , especially when they define or declare points not generally known and acknowledged to be Catholick Truths . What you grant in effect at first , you in effect deny again afterwards . For the Question is about Reformation of such errours and abuses as may come from the Church of Rome ; and when you grant a power to reform only , in case the Pope consent , you grant no power to reform at all . For the experience of the world hath sufficiently taught us , How little his consent is to be expected in any thing of Reformation . For his Lordship truly saith , in Answer to Capellus , who denies particular Churches any power of making Canons of Faith , without consulting the Roman See , That as Capellus can never prove that the Roman See must be consulted with before any Reformation be made : So it is as certain , that , were it proved and practised , we should have no Reformation . For it would be long enough before the Church should be cured , if that See alone should be her Physitian , which in truth is her disease . Now to this you say , That even Capellus himself requires this : as though Capellus were not the man whom his Lordship answers as to this very thing . But besides you say , The practise of the Church is evident for it , in the examples of the Milevitan and Carthaginian Councils , which , as St. Austin witnesseth , sent their decrees touching Grace , Original sin in Infants , and other matters against Pelagius , to be confirmed by the Pope : but what is all this to the business of Reformation , that nothing of that nature is to be attempted without the Popes consent ? That these Councils did by Julius an African Bishop communicate their decrees to Pope Innocent , Who denyes ? but , what is it you would thence infer to your purpose ? for the utmost which can be drawn hence , is , that they desired the Pope to contribute his assistance in condemning Pelagius and Coelestius ; by adding the authority of the Apostolical See to their decrees : that so by the consent of the Church that growing Heresie might the more easily be suppressed . And who denyes but at that time the Roman Church had great reputation , ( which is all that Authority implyes ) and by that means might be more serviceable in preventing the growth of Pelagianism , if it did concur with the African Councils in condemning that Doctrine . But because they communicated their decrees to Pope Innocent desiring his consent with them , that therefore no reformation should be attempted in the Church without the consent of the Pope is a very far-fetched inference ; and unhappily drawn from those African Fathers , who so stoutly opposed Zosimus , Innocents Successour , in the case of Appeals about the business of Apiarius . Did they , think you , look on themselves as obliged to do nothing in the reforming the Church without the Popes authority , who would by no means yield to those encroachments of power , which Zosimus would have usurped over them ? Nay it appears , that , till the African Fathers had better informed him , Zosimus did not a little favour Coelestius himself , and in case he had gone on so to do , do you think they would have thought themselves ever the less obliged to reform their Churches from the Pelagian Heresie which began to spread among them ? And in this time of the Controversie between Zosimus and them , though they carried it with all fairness towards the Roman See , yet they were still careful to preserve and defend their own priviledges ; and in case the Pope should then have challenged that power over them , which he hath done since , no doubt they would not have struck at calling such incroachments The disease of the Church , ( without any unhandsomness or incivility ) and would have been far from looking on him as the only Physitian of it . To that pretence , That things should have been born with , till the time of a General Council , his Lordship answers : First , 't is true , a General Council , free and entire , would have been the best remedy , and most able for a Gangrene that had spread so far , and eaten so deep into Christianity . But what ? should we have suffered this Gangrene to endanger life and all , rather then be cured in time by a Physitian of weaker knowledge , and a less able hand ? Secondly we live to see since , if we had stayed and expected a General Council , what manner of one we should have had if any . For that at Trent was neither General nor free . And for the errours which Rome had contracted , it confirmed them , it cured them not . And yet I much doubt , whether ever that Council ( such as it was ) would have been call'd , if some Provincial and National Synods under Supreme and Regal power , had not first set upon this great work of Reformation ; which I heartily wish had been as orderly and happily pursued as the work was right Christian and good in it self . But humane frailty and the heats and distempers of men , as well as the cunning of the Devil would not suffer that . For even in this sense also the wrath of man doth not accomplish the will of God , St. James 1.20 . but I have learnt not to reject the good , which God hath wrought , for any evil which men may fasten upon it . Now to this you answer , 1. By a fair Concession again , that a Provincial Council is the next Chirurgion , when a Gangrene endangers life , but still the Popes assistance is required : For fear the Chirurgion should do too much good of himself , you would be sure to have the Pope as Physitian to stand by , whom you know too much concerned in the maladies of the Church , to give way to an effectual cure . 2. But you say further , That the most proper expedient is an Oecumenical Council ; and this you spoil again , with saying ; Such as the Council of Trent was . For what you say in vindication of that being General and free , we shall consider in the Chapter designed for that purpose . What you object against our National Synod 1562. will be fully answered before the end of this ; which that we may make way for , we must proceed to the remainder of these general grounds ; in which his Lordship proves , That when the Vniversal Church will not , or for the iniquity of the times cannot obtain and settle a free General Council , 't is lawful , nay sometimes necessary to reform gross abuses by a National or a Provincial . To this you answer in General , That you deny not but matters of less moment as concerning rites and ceremonies , abuses in manners and discipline , may be reformed by particular Councils , without express leave of the Pope ; but that in matters of great moment concerning the Faith and publick Doctrine of the Church , Sacraments , and whatever else is of Divine Institution , or universal obligation , particular Councils , ( if they duly proceed ) attempt nothing without recourse to the Sea Apostolick , and the Pope's consent either expresly granted or justly presumed . Fair hopes then there are of a cure when the Imposthume gathers in the Head ! we are indeed by this put into a very good condition ; for if a small matter hurts a Church she hath her hands at liberty to help her self ; but if one comes to ravish her , her hands are tyed , and by no means must she defend her self . For in case , say you , it be any matter of great moment , it must be left to the Pope , and nothing to be done without his consent ; no not although the main of the distempers come through him . But thanks be to God , our Church is not committed to the hands of such a merciless Physitian , who first causeth the malady and then forbids the cure : we know of no such obligation we have , to sleep in St. Peters Church , as of old they did in the Temple of Aesculapius in hopes of a cure . God hath entrusted every National Church with the care of her own safety , and will require of her an account of that power he hath given to that end . It will be little comfort to a Church whose members rot for want of a remedy , to say , The Pope will not give leave or else it might have been cured . I wonder where it is that any Christian Church is commanded to wait the Popes good leasure for reforming her self ? Whence doth he derive this Authority and sole power of reforming Churches ? But that must be afterwards examined . But is it reasonable to suppose that there should be Christian Magistrates , and Christian Bishops in Churches , and yet these so tyed up that they can do nothing in order to the Churches recovery though the distempers be never so great and dangerous ? Do we not read in the Apostolical Churches that the Government of them was in themselves , without any the least mention of any Oecumenical Pastour over all ? if any abuses were among them , the particular Governours of those Churches are checked and rebuked for it , and commanded to exercise their power over offenders ? and must the encroachments of an usurped and arbitrary power in the Church hinder particular Churches from the exercise of that full power which is committed to the Governours of them ? Neither is this only a Right granted to a Church as such , but we find this power practised and asserted in the history of the Christian Churches from the Apostles times . For no sooner did the Bishops of Rome begin to encroach , but other Bishops were so mindful of their own priviledges and the Interess of their Churches , that they did not yield themselves his Vassals , but disputed their rights and withstood his usurpations . As hath partly appeared already , and will do more afterwards . And that particular Churches may reform themselves , his Lordship produceth several Testimonies ; The first is of Gerson , who tells us plainly , That he will not deny , but that the Church may be reformed by parts . And that this is necessary ; and , that to effect it , Provincial Councils may suffice , and in some things Diocesan . And again , Either you should reform all estates of the Church in a General Council , or command them to be reformed in Provincial Councils : But all this , you say , doth not concern matters of Faith , but only personal abuses ; But I pray what ground is there that one should be reformed and not the other ? Is it not the reason why any reformation is necessary , that the Churches purity and safety should be preserved ? and is not that as much or more endangered by erroneous doctrines then by personal abuses ? Will not then the parity of reason hold proportionably for one as well as the other ? that if the Church may be reformed by parts as to lesser abuses , then much more certainly as to greater . Besides , you say , Gerson allowed no Schismatical Reformations against the Churches head ; neither do we plead for any such ; but then you must shew , Who the Churches head is , and , By what right he comes to be so ; otherwise the cause of the Schism will fall upon him who pretends to be the head to direct others , and is as corrupt a member as any in the body . But his Lordship adds , This right of Provincial Synods , that they might decree in causes of Faith , and in cases of Reformation , where corruptions had crept into the Sacraments of Christ , was practised much above a thousand years ago by many , both National and Provincial Synods . For which he first instanceth in the Council at Rome under Pope Sylvester An. 324. condemning Photinus and Sabellius , whose heresies were of a high nature against the Faith ; but here you say , The very title confutes his pretence , for it was held under the Pope and therefore not against him . But however , whether with the Pope or against him , it was no more then a Provincial Synod ; and this decreed something in matters of Faith , though according to your own Doctrine the Pope could not be Infallible there : for you restrain his Infallibility to a General Council , and do not assert that it belongs to the particular Church of Rome . As well then may any other Provincial Synod determine matters of Faith , as that of Rome , since that hath no more Infallibility belonging to it as such then any other particular Church hath ; and the Pope himself you say may erre when he doth not define matters of Faith in a General Council . To his Lordships second instance of the Council of Gangra about the same time condemning Eustathius for his condemning marriage as unlawful ; you answer to the same purpose , That Osius was there Pope Sylvester's Legat ; but what then ? if the Pope had been there himself he had not been Infallible , much less certainly his Legat who could have only a Second-hand Infallibility . To the third of the Council of Carthage condemning rebaptization about 348. you grant , That it was assembled by Gratus Bishop of Carthage , but that no new Article was defined in it , but only the perpetual tradition of the Church was confirmed therein . Neither do we plead for any power in Provincial Councils to define any new Articles of Faith , but only to revive the old , and to confirm them in opposition to any Innovations in point of Doctrine ; and as to this we profess to be guided by the sense of Scripture as interpreted by the unanimous consent of the Fathers and the four first General Councils . To the fourth of the Council of Aquileia A. D. 381. condemning Palladius and Secundinus for embracing the Arrian Heresie , St. Ambrose being present ; you answer , That they only condemned those who had been condemned already by the Nicene Council ; and , St. Ambrose and other Bishops of Italy being present , Who can doubt but every thing was done there by the Popes authority and consent ? But if they only enforced the decrees of the Council of Nice , What need of the Pope's authority to do that ? And do you think that there were no Provincial Councils in that part of Italy which was particularly distinguished from the suburbicarian Churches under the Bishop of Rome , wherein the Pope was not present either by himself or Legats ? If you think so , your thoughts have more of your will then understanding in them . But if this Council proceeded according to that of Nice , Will it not be as lawful for other Provincial Councils to reform particular Churches , as long as they keep to the Decrees not barely of Nice , but of the four General Councils , which the Church of England looks on , as her duty to do . In the two following Instances of the second Council of Carthage declaring in behalf of the Trinity , and the Milevitan Council about the Pelagian Heresie ; you say , The Bishops of Rome were consulted : But what then ? Were they consulted as the Heads of the Church , or only as eminent members of it in regard of their Faith and Piety ? Prove the former when you are able ; and as to the latter it depends upon the continuance of that Faith and Piety in them ; and when once the reason is taken away , there can be no necessity of continuing the same resort . The same answer will serve for what you say concerning the second Council of Aurange , determining the Controversies about Grace and Free-will , supposing we grant it assembled by the means of Felix 4. Bishop of Rome ; as likewise to the third of Toledo . We come therefore to that which you call his Lordships reserve , and Master-allegation the fourth Council of Toledo ; which , saith he , did not only handle matters of Faith for the reformation of that people , but even added also something to the Creed , which were not expresly delivered in former Creeds . Nay , the Bishops did not only practise this , to condemn Heresies in National and Provincial Synods , and so to reform those several places and the Church it self by parts ; but they did openly challenge this as their right and due , and that without any leave asked of the See of Rome . For in this fourth Council of Toledo they decree , that , If there happen a cause of Faith to be setled , a general that is a National Synod of all Spain and Gallicia shall be held thereon . And this in the year 643. where you see it was then Catholick Doctrine in all Spain , that a National Synod might be a competent Judge in a cause of Faith. But here still we meet with the same Answer , That all this might be done with a due subordination to the See Apostolick , but that it doth not hence follow that any thing may be done in Provincial Councils against the authority of it . Neither do we plead that any thing may be done against the just authority of the Bishop of Rome , or any other Bishop ; but then you must prove that he had a just authority over the Church of England , and that he exercised no power here at the Reformation but what did of right belong to him . But the fuller debate of these things must be left to that place where you designedly assert and vindicate the Pope's Authority . These things being thus in the general cleared , we come to the particular application of them to the case of the Church of England . As to which , his Lordship say's ; And if this were practised so often and in so many places , Why may not a National Council of the Church of England do the like ? As she did . For she cast off the Pope's usurpation , and as much as in her lay restored the King to his right . That appears by a Book subscribed by the Bishops in Henry the eighths time . And by the Records in the Archbishops office , orderly kept and to be seen . In the Reformation which came after , our Princes had their parts , and the Clergy theirs . And to these two principally the power and direction for Reformation belongs . That our Princes had their parts , is manifest by their calling together of the Bishops , and others of the Clergy , to consider of that which might seem worthy Reformation . And the Clergy did their part : for , being thus call'd together by Regal power , they met in the National Synod of sixty two . And the Articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed by acts of State , and the Royal assent . In this Synod , the Positive truths which are delivered are more then the Polemicks . So that a meer calumny it is , that we profess only a Negative Religion . True it is , and we must thank Rome for it , our Confession must needs contain some Negatives . For we cannot but deny that Images are to be adored . Nor can we admit maimed Sacraments . Nor grant Prayers in an unknown tongue . And in a corrupt time or place , 't is as necessary in Religion to deny falshood , as to assert and vindicate Truth . Indeed this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but by the former , an Affirmative verity being ever included in the Negative to a falshood . As for any errour which might fall into this ( as any other Reformation ) if any such can be found ; then I say , and 't is most true , Reformation , especially in cases of Religion , is so difficult a work , and subject to so many Pretensions , that 't is almost impossible but the Reformers should step too far , or fall too short in some smaller things or other , which in regard of the far greater benefit coming by the Reformation it self , may well be passed over and born withall . But if there have been any wilfull and gross errours , not so much in opinion as in Fact ( Sacriledge too often pretending to Reform Superstition ) that 's the crime of the Reformers , not of the Reformation ; and they are long since gone to God to answer it , to whom I leave them . This is his Lordships full and just account of the proceedings of the Reformation in the Church of England , to which we must consider what Answer you return . To his Lordships Question , Why may not a National Council of the Church of England do the like ; you give this answer , Truly I know no reason why it may not , provided it be a true National Council and a true Church of England , ( as those recited were true Churches and Councils ) and provided also that it do no more . We are contended to put the issue of this business upon these three things , viz. That our Church is a true Church , That the power which reformed it was sufficient for that purpose , and , That no more was done by them then was in their power to do . But for the first you tell us , That seeing by the Church of England he means the present Protestant Church there , you must crave leave of his Lordship to deny his supposition , and tell him the Church of England in that sense , signifies no true Church . Were it not an easie matter to requite you by telling you , It is impossible we should be guilty of Schism in any separation from your Communion , because we must crave leave of you to say that the Church of Rome is no true Church ; and where there is Schism that must be a true Church which men are guilty of it in separating from . Not as though I sought only to return a blow on you which I could not defend our Church from ; but to let you see , that by whatever way you would prove your Church to be true , by the same we may prove ours to be so too . If you own and believe the Christian Doctrine to be the way to salvation , so do we . If you embrace the ancient Creeds , so do we . If you acknowledge the Scriptures to be Gods Word , so do we . If you joyn together in participation of the Sacraments of Baptism , and the Lords Supper , so do we . If you have a constant succession of Bishops , so have we . Name then What it is , which is Fundamental to the Being of a Church , which our Protestant Church doth want ? You grant the Church of England was a true Church before the Reformation , Wherein was it altered from it self by it , that it ceased to be a true Church ? Was it , in denying the Pope's Supremacy in eighth's time ? That cannot be : for you very remarkably grant afterwards , That the Bishops , and the King too , left the Pope in possession of all that he could rightly challenge . ( Which is a concession we shall make more use of afterwards . ) Surely then this could not unchurch them . Or , Was it the proceedings of the Reformation in Elizabeth's time ? The Supremacy could not be it neither now ; for that was asserted under a more moderate title in her time , than in her Fathers . Was it the Vse of the Liturgy in the English tongue ? Surely not ; when Pius the fourth offered to confirm it , as is credibly reported from Vincentius Parpalia , whom that Pope imployed on a Message to Queen Elizabeth , with terms of Accommodation . But , What was it which did unchurch us ? Were they the Articles of Religion agreed on in the Convocation , 1562 ? If they were these , Were they either the positive or negative Articles ? If the positive , Were they the asserting the Articles contained in the three Creeds , the sufficiency of Scriptures , the necessity of Divine Grace ? or , What else ? If the negative , Was it the denying Purgatory , Invocation of Saints , Vnlawfulness of Priests Marriage , Communion in one kind ? or , Which of them else was it , which made the Protestant Church to be no true Church ? Or , Is it lastly the asserting , That as the Church of Jerusalem , Alexandria , and Antioch , have erred , so also the Church of Rome hath erred , not only in their livings , and manner of Ceremonies , but also in matters of Faith ? Is this it which hath done us all the mischief to unchurch us , viz. the denying your Churches Infallibility ? If this be it , it is our comfort yet , that our Church will remain a true Church , till yours be proved to be Infallible ; which I dare say , will be long enough . But , as though it were in your absolute power to church and unchurch whom , and when you please , you offer at no proof at all of this assertion , but only very fairly crave his Lordships leave to call the Protestant Church no true Church : Which indeed is a more civil way of begging the Question . And if it will not be granted , you cannot help it ; for you have done your utmost , in craving his leave for it , and you have no more to say to it . But , you seem to say much more to the second , That the Reformation was not managed by a lawful power , nor carried on in a due manner ; for you offer to prove , that the National Synod 1562. was no lawful Synod , in these words . For is it not notorious , that pretended Synod A. D. 1562. were all manifest usurpers ? Is it not manifest , that they all by force intruded themselves , both into the Sees of other lawful Bishops , and into the cures of other lawful Pastors , quietly and Canonically possessed of them before the said intrusion ? Can those be accounted a lawful National Council of England , or lawfully to represent the English Church , who never had any lawful , that is , Canonical and just Vocation , Mission , or Jurisdiction given them to , and over the English Nation ? Two things you object as the great reasons why those persons who sate in the Convocation , A. 1562. could make no lawful Synod , and those are Intrusion , and want of a lawful Mission : which shall be particularly examined . The first charge is of Intrusion , which you would seem to aggravate by several circumstances , that they intruded themselves , and that by force ; and not some , but all ; and that into the Sees of other lawful Bishops , and cures of lawful Pastors . But how true these circumstances are , must appear by a true account of the matters of fact relating to these things in the beginning of Elizabeth's Reign . How false that is , That all intruded themselves , is notorious to any one who understands any thing of those times ; For this Convocation was held in the fifth year of Queen Elizabeth , and in the fifth of her Reign : Of 26 Cathedral Churches , there were but fourteen or fifteen Bishops then living in England . For the Sees of Salisbury and Oxford fell vacant A. 1557. and were not supplied in the time of Queen Mary . Hereford , Bristow , Bangor , were vacant by the death of the several Bishops some weeks before Queen Mary . Canterbury by the death of Cardinal Pool , the same day with the Queen . Norwich and Gloucester a few weeks after her ; and so likewise Rochester , Worcester , and S. Asaph became vacant by the voluntary exile of Pates and Goldwell , the Bishops thereof ; so that but fifteen Bishops were then living and remaining in England . And , Were all those who supplied these vacant Sees , Intruders ? A strange kind of Intrusion into dead mens places ! So then , this circumstance is notoriously false , That they All by force intruded themselves into the Sees of other lawful Bishops . But let us see , Whether the other are more justly charged with a forcible Intrusion into the Sees of the other Bishops . For which we must consider what the proceedings were in reference to them : It appears then , that in the first year of the Queen , the Oath of Supremacy , formed and enjoyned in the time of Henry 8. was in the first Parliament of Queen Elizabeth revived for the better securing the Queen of the Fidelity of her subjects ; but yet it was so revived , that several considerable passages in the Act concerning it , were upon mature deliberation mitigated , both as to the Queens title which was not Supreme Head , but Supreme Governour ; a title which Queen Mary had used before , as appears by an Act passed in the third Session of Parliament in her time : and likewise as to the penalty ; for , whereas the Stat. 28. Hen. 8. c. 10. was so very severe , That whosoever did extol the authority of the Bishop of Rome , was , for the first offence , within the compass of a Praemunire , and for refusing to take the Oath , was guilty of Treason ; it passed now in Elizabeth's time , only with this penalty , That such who refused it , should be excluded such places of honour and profit , as they held in the Church or Common-wealth ; and that such as should maintain or defend the authority , preheminence , power , or jurisdiction , Spiritual or Ecclesiastical of any forein Prince , Prelate , Person , State , or Potentate whatsoever , should be three times convicted before he suffered the pains of death . Upon the expiring of the Parliament , Commissioners were appointed to require the Bishops to take the Oath of Supremacy , according to the Law made to that purpose , which being tendred to them , they all ( Kitchin of Landaffe only excepted ) unanimously refused it , although they had taken it before as Priests or Bishops , in the Reign of Henry 8. or Edward 6. But whether by some secret intimations from Rome , or their own obstinacy , they were resolved rather to undergo the penalty of the Law , than to take it now ; and accordingly before the end of that year they were deprived of their Bishopricks . So that the Question about the Intrusion of those Bishops , who came into their Sees , depends upon the legality of the deprivation of these . And certainly , whosoever considers their former carriage towards the Queen , in refusing to assist at her Coronation , and some of them threatning to excommunicate her instead of disputing at Westminster , as they had solemnly engaged to do , joyned with this contumacy in refusing the Oath , will find that these persons did not unjustly suffer this deprivation . For which I need not run out into the Princes power over Ecclesiastical persons ; for you have given a sufficient reason for it your self in that acknowledgement of yours , That the Bishops , and the King too ( meaning King Henry ) left the Pope in possession of all he could rightly challenge . If this be true , that notwithstanding the Stat. 28. Hen. 8. notwithstanding the Oath of Supremacy then taken , the Pope might injoy all that belonged to him of Divine Right , he might then do the same , notwithstanding this Oath in Elizabeth's time , which was only reviving the former with some mitigation ; and what could it be then else but obstinacy and contumacy in them to refuse it ? And therefore the plea which you make for those whom you call the Henry-Bishops , will sufficiently condemn these present Bishops , whom we now speak of . For if those Bishops only renounced the Popes Canonical and acquired Jurisdiction here in England , as you say , i. e. that Authority and Jurisdiction in Ecclesiastical matters , which the Pope exercised here by virtue of the Canons , Prescription , and other titles of humane right , and gave it to the King ; yet they never renounced or deprived him of that part of his authority , which is far more intrinsecal to his office , and of Divine Right ; they never denied the Popes Soveraign Power to teach the Vniversal Church , and determine all Controversies of Faith whatsoever in a General Council . If these things , I say , be true , which you confidently assert , the more inexcusable were these Bishops for refusing that Oath of Supremacy which they had not only taken in Henry's time , but which , by your own confession , takes away nothing of the Pope's Authority , in relation to the whole Catholick Church . And by this means their obstinacy appeared so great , as might justly deserve a deprivation . It being certainly in the Power of the King and Bishops to assert their own rights in opposition to any Canons or Prescriptions whatsoever of meerly humane right . So that by your own confession , the more excusable the Henry-Bishops were , as you call them , the less excusable the Mary-Bishops were ( as , to follow you , we must call them ) in refusing the Oath of Supremacy , when tendred to them . Was it lawful then in Henry's time , to take this Oath or not ? If not , then King Henry's Bishops are infinitely to blame for taking it , and you for defending them : If it was lawful then , why not in Elizabeth's time ? Had she not as much reason to impose it as her Father ? Had she not as much power to do it ? When one of the chief refusers , Heath , Arch-Bishop of York , and then L. Chancellour of England , did , upon the first notice of the death of Queen Mary , declare to the House of Commons , That the succession of the Crown did of right belong to the Princess Elizabeth , whose title they conceived to be free from all legal Questions ; this could be then no plea at all for them . So that if any persons through the greatest obstinacy , might be deprived by a Prince of their Ecclesiastical preferments , these might ; and when you can prove , that in no case a Prince hath power to deprive Ecclesiastical persons , you will say more to your purpose than yet you have done . But till you have done that , it remains clear , that these Bishops were justly deprived ; and if so , What was to be done with their vacant Sees ? Must they be kept vacant still ? or such be put into them who were guilty of the same fault with themselves , in refusing the Oath , when tendred to them ? If not such , then it was necessary that other fit persons should be legally consecrated and invested in them : And so they were , the places being supplied by worthy persons ; the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury being consecrated by a Canonical number of Edward-Bishops , and the rest duly consecrated by other hands . And for all this , Must all these persons be intruders , and intrude themselves by force , and that into the places of other lawful Bishops ? When so many Sees were actually vacant , and the rest by due form of Law , into which other Bishops were elected , and legally consecrated , notwithstanding the putid Fable of the Nags-Head ordination , which hath so often and so evidently been disproved , that I am glad to find you have so much modesty , as not to mention it . These Bishops being thus legally invested in their places , To whom did the care and Government of the English Church belong ? to these , or to those who were justly deprived ? If to these , Were not they then the due representatives of the English Church in a National Synod , who with those of the lower House of Convocation , make up a true National Council ? And if so , it belonged to them as such , to consider what appertained to the Faith and Government of the Church of England . For they undertook not to prescribe to the whole world , that they leave to the Bishop and Church of Rome ( not as legally belonging to them , but arrogantly usurped by them ) but to draw up Articles of Religion , which should be owned by all such who enjoyed any place of Trust in the Church of England . So that in all this they were neither intruders , neither did they act any thing beyond their place and authority . But you would seem to quarrel with their Vocation , Mission , and Jurisdiction , as though it were not lawful , i. e. Canonical and Just ; all these are your own words , and they are but words ; for not one syllable like a proof is suggested . I tell you then ( not to spend time in a needless vindication of the Vocation of the Bishops and Pastors of the Church of England , when you give us no reason to question it ) that by the same arguments that you can prove that you have any lawful Bishops and Pastors in your Church , it will appear that we have too . And that our Vocation and Mission is far more consonant to the Apostolical and Primitive Church than yours is . But , the main quarrel is still behind , which is , that , Supposing they had been true Bishops , and Pastors of the English Church , and their Assembly a lawful National Council , yet , you say , They were so far from doing the like ( that other Provincial Councils had done ) that they acted directly contrary to them , which charge lyes in these things . 1. Condemning points of Faith that had been generally believed and practised in the Church before them . This you know we deny , and you barely affirm it , and I have shewed some reason of our denial already , and shall do more when we come to particulars . 2. In contradicting the Doctrine of the Roman Church : A great Heresie indeed , but never yet condemned in any General Council . 3. In convening against the express Will of the Church of Rome : We shall then think that a fault , when you prove it belongs to that only , to summon all Councils , General , National , and Provincial . 4. In denying the Popes Authority , or attempting to deprive him of it : if you speak of his usurped Authority , you must prove it a fault to deprive him of it , i. e. to withdraw our selves from obedience to it , for that is all the deprivation can be here understood . If you mean Just Authority , shew wherein it lyes , whence he had it , by what means he came into it in the Church of England , and if you can make it appear that he had a just claim , it will be easie proving them guilty of a fault who disowned it . But , Whether it were a fault in them or no , I am sure it is one in you , to lay such things , and so many to our charge , and not offering to give evidence for one of them . But I must consider the Infallibility of your Church lyes in dictating , and not proving . Thus then , for any thing which you so much as seem to say to the contrary , the proceedings of the Reformation were very regular and just , being built on sufficient grounds , managed in a legal manner , and carried on with due moderation . Which are the highest commendations can be given to a work of Reformation ; and do with the greatest right belong to the Church of England , of any Church in the Christian world . There remains nothing now which you object against our Reformation , but some faults of the Reformers ; as to which his Lordship had already said , If any such be found , they are the crimes of the persons , and not of the Reformation , and they are long since gone to God to answer it , to whom I leave them . Which Answer so full of justice and modesty , one would have thought , should have been sufficient for any reasonable man ; but you are not satisfied with it . For you will have those faults to come from the principles of the Reformation , and that they did not belong to the persons of the Reformers , but are entailed on their Successors . But a short Answer will suffice for both these : shew us , What avowed principles of the Church of England tend to any real Sacriledge , before you charge any thing of that nature , as flowing from the Maxims of the Reformation . And if you can prove the Successors of the Reformers to continue in any Sacrilegious Actions , let those plead for them who will , I shall not ; but leave them , as his Lordship did , to answer such things to God. As to the Memorandum , which his Lordship concludes this discourse with , That he spake at that time of the General Church , as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Roman See : not doubting , but that as the Vniversal Catholick Church would have reformed her self , had she been in all parts freed of the Roman Yoke ; so , while she was for the most in these Western parts under that Yoke , the Church of Rome was , if not the only , yet the chief hinderance of Reformation : You answer with some stomach ; By what force I pray ? Is it possible ? or , Can it enter into the judgement of any reasonable man , that a single Bishop , of no very large Diocese , should be able by force , to bring into subjection so many large Provinces of Christendom , as confessedly did acknowledge the Popes Power , when the pretended Reformation began ? But , What reasonable man can imagine , that a single Bishop indeed of no very large Diocese ( if kept within his bounds ) should , in progress of time , extend his power so far as the Pope did , but by one of these two means , force , or fraud ? And since , you seem to be so much displeased at the former , I pray take the latter ; or rather , the conjunction of both together . For that there was force used , appears by the manifold resistance which was made to the encroachments of the Popes power ; and the sad complaints of the usurpations and abuses which were in it ; and these abundantly delivered by Classical Authors of both the present and precedent times : and ( to use more of your own words ) all Ecclesiastical Monuments are full of them ; so that this is no false calumny , or bitter Pasquil ( as you call it ) but a very plain and evident truth . But that there was likewise a great deal of art , subtilty and fraud used in the getting , keeping , and managing the Popes power , he hath but a small measure of wit who doth not understand , and they as little of honesty , who dare not confess it . CHAP. V. Of the Roman Churches Authority . The Question concerning the Church of Rome's Authority entred upon . How far our Church , in reforming her self , condemns the Church of Rome . The Pope's equality with other Patriarchs , asserted . The Arabick Canons of the Nicene Council proved to be supposititious . The Polity of the Ancient Church discovered from the sixth Canon of the Council of Nice . The Rights of Primates and Metropolitans settled by it . The suitableness of the Ecclesiastical , to the Civil Government . That the Bishop of Rome had then a limited Jurisdiction within the suburbicary Churches ; as Primate of the Roman Diocese . Of the Cyprian Priviledge ; that it was not peculiar , but common to all Primates of Dioceses . Of the Pope's Primacy according to the Canons ; how far pertinent to our dispute . How far the Pope's Confirmation requisite to new elected Patriarchs . Of the Synodical and Communicatory Letters . The testimonies of Petrus de Marcâ concerning the Pope's Power of confirming and deposing Bishops . The Instances brought for it , considered . The case of Athanasius being restored by Julius , truly stated . The proceedings of Constantine in the case of the Donatists cleared , and the evidence thence against the Pope's Supremacy . Of the Appeals of Bishops to Rome , how far allowed by the Canons of the Church . The great case of Appeals between the Roman and African Bishops discussed . That the Appeals of Bishops were prohibited , as well as those of the inferiour Clergy . C's . fraud in citing the Epistle of the African Bishops , for acknowledging Appeals to Rome . The contrary manifested from the same Epistle to Boniface , and the other to Coelestine . The exemption of the Ancient Britannick Church from any subjection to the See of Rome , asserted . The case of Wilfrids Appeal answered . The Primacy of England not derived from Gregory's Grant to Augustine the Monk. The Ancient Primacy of the Britannick Church not lost upon the Saxon Conversion . Of the state of the African Churches , after their denying Appeals to Rome . The rise of the Pope's Greatness under Christian Emperours . Of the Decree of the Sardican Synod , in case of Appeals : Whether ever received by the Church : No evidence thence of the Pope's Supremacy . Zosimus his forgery in sending the Sardican Canons instead of the Nicene . The weakness of the pleas for it , manifested . THat which now remains to be discussed in the Question of Schism , is , concerning the Authority of the Church and Bishop of Rome , Whether that be so large and extensive , as to bind us to an universal submission , so that by renouncing of it , we violate the Vnity of the Church , and are thereby guilty of Schism ? But , before we come to a particular discussion of that , we must cast our eyes back on the precedent Chapter , in which the title promiseth us , That Protestants should be further convinced of Schism ; but upon examination of it , there appears not so much as the shadow of any new matter , but it wholly depends upon principles already refuted , and so contains a bare repetition of what hath been abundantly answered in the first part . So your first Section hath no more of strength , than what lyes in your Churches Infallibility : For , when you would plead , That though the Church of Rome be the accused party , yet she may judge in her own cause ; you do it upon this ground , That you had already proved the Roman Church to be infallible , and therefore your Church might as well condemn her accusers , as the Apostles theirs ; and that Protestants not pretending Infallibility cannot rationally be permitted to be Accusers and Witnesses against the Roman Church . Now , What doth all this come to , in case your Church be not infallible , as we have evidently proved she is not , in the first part ; and that she is so far from it , that she hath most grosly erred , as we shall prove in the third part ? Your second Section supposes the matter of fact evident , That Protestants did contradict the publick Doctrine and belief of all Christians generally throughout the world , which we have lately proved to be an egregious falsity , and shall do more afterwards . The cause of the Separatists , and the Church of England , is vastly different , Whether wee look on the authority , cause , or manner of their proceedings ; and in your other Instances you still beg the Question , That your Church is our Mother-Church , and therefore we are bound to submit to her judgement , though she be the accused party . But as to this whole business of Quô Judice , nothing can be spoken with more solidity and satisfaction , than what his Lordship saith . If it be a cause common to both , as certain it is here ( between the Protestant and Roman Church ) then neither part alone may be Judge ; if neither alone may judge , then either they must be judged by a third , which stands indifferent to both , and that is the Scripture : or if there be a jealousie , or a doubt of the sense of the Scripture , they must either both repair to the Exposition of the Primitive Church , and submit to that ; or both call and submit to a General Council , which shall be lawfully called , and fairly and freely held with indifferency to all parties ; and that must judge the Difference according to Scripture , which must be their Rule as well as private mens . When you either attempt to shew the unreasonableness of this , or substitute any thing more reasonable instead of it , you may expect a further Answer to the Question , Quô Judice ? as far as it concerns the difference between your Church , or ours . The remainder of this whole Chapter is only a repetition of somewhat concerning Fundamentals , and a further expatiating in words , without the addition of any more strength from reason or authority upon the Churches Infallibility being proved from Scripture ; which having been throughly considered already , and an account given , not only of the meaning of those places ( one excepted , which we shall meet with again ) but of the reason , Why the sense of them as to Infallibility should be restrained to the Apostles , I find no sufficient motive inducing me to follow you , in distrusting the Readers memory , and trespassing on his patience , so much as to inculcate the same things over and over , as you do . Passing by therefore the things already handled , and leaving the rest ( if any such thing appear ) to a more convenient place , where these very places of Scripture are again brought upon the stage in the Questions of the Pope's Authority and Infallibility of General Councils , I come to your following Chapter , in which you enter upon the Vindication of the Roman Churches Authority . 2. That which his Lordship hath long insisted on , and evidently proved , is , The Right which particular Churches have to reform themselves , when the General Church cannot for impediments , or will not for negligence do it . And your Answers to his proofs have had their weakness sufficiently laid open ; the only thing here objected further , is , Whether in so doing particular Churches do not condemn others of Errours in Faith ? To which his Lordship answers , That to reform themselves , and to condemn others , are two different works , unless it fall out so , that by reforming themselves , they do by consequence condemn any other , that is guilty in that point , in which they reform themselves ; and so far to judge and condemn others , is not only lawful but necessary . A man that lives Religiously doth not by and by sit in judgement , and condemn with his mouth all prophane livers : but yet while he is silent , his very life condemns them . To what end his Lordship produceth this Instance , any one may easily understand ; but you abuse it , as though his Lordship had said , That Protestants only by their Religious lives do condemn your Church ; and upon this run out into a strange declamation about Who the men are that live so Religiously ? They who to propagate the Gospel the better , marry wives contrary to the Canons and bring Scripture for it ? Yes surely , much more then they who to propagate your Church , enjoy Concubines ; for which if they can bring some Canons of your Church , I am sure they can bring no Scripture for it . They who pull down Monasteries both of Religious men and women ? I see , you are still as loth to part them , as they are to be parted themselves ; but if all their lives be no more Religious then the most of them have been ; the pulling of them down might be a greater act of Religion then living in them . They who cast Altars to the ground ? More certainly then they who worshipped them . They who partly banish Priests , and partly put them to death ? Or they who commit treasons and do things worthy of death ? But you are doubtless very Religious and tender-hearted men , whose consciences would never suffer you to banish or put any to death for the sake of Religion ; no not in Queen Maries time here in England ! They who deface the very Tombs of Saints , and will not permit them to rest even when they are dead ? Or they who profess to worship dead Saints , and martyr living ones with Fire and Faggot ? If this be your religious living , none who know what Religion means will be much taken with it . I shall easily grant that you stick close to the Pope , but are therein far enough from the Doctrine or life of St. Peter . If any of you have endured Sequestrations , Imprisonments , Death it self , I am sure it was not for any good you did ; not for the Catholick Faith , but if you will , for some Catholick Treasons , such as would have enwrapt a whole Nation in misery . If this be your suffering persecution for righteousness sake , you will have little cause to rejoyce in your Fellow-sufferers . But if you had not a mind to calumniate us , and provoke us to speak sad truths of you , all this might have been spared ; for his Lordship only chose this Instance , to shew that a Church or person may be condemned consequentially , which was not intentionally . But you say , Our Church hath formally condemned yours , by publick and solemn censures in the 39. Articles . Doth his Lordship deny that our Church in order to our own reformation hath condemned many things which your Church holds ? No , but that our Churches main intention was to reform it self ; but , considering the corruption and degeneracy of your Church , she could not do it , without consequentially condemning yours : and , that she did justly in so doing , we are ready on all occasions to justifie . But his Lordship asks , If one particular Church may not judge or condemn another , What must then be done where particulars need reformation ? To which his Adversary gives a plain Answer , That particular Churches must in that case ( as Irenaeus intimateth ) have recourse to the Church of Rome , which hath more powerful principality ; and to her Bishop , who is the chief Pastour of the whole Church , as being St. Peters Successour , &c. This is the rise and occasion of the present Controversie . To this his Lordship Answers , That it is most true indeed ; the Church of Rome hath had , and hath yet , more powerful Principality , then any other particular Church . But she hath not this power from Christ. The Roman Patriarch by Ecclesiastical constitutions might perhaps have a Primacy of order : but for principality of power , the Patriarchs were as even , as equal , as the Apostles were before them . The truth is , this more powerful Principality the Roman Bishops got under the Emperours , after they became Christian ; and they used the matter so , that they grew big enough to oppose , nay to depose the Emperours , by the same power which they had given them . And after this , other particular Churches , especially here in the West , submitted themselves to them for Succour and Protections sake . And this was one main cause that swel'd Rome into this more powerful Principality , and not any right given by Christ to make that Prelate , Pastour of the whole Church . To this you Answer , That to say that the Roman Churches Principality is not from Christ , is contrary to St. Austin and the whole Milevitan Council , who in their Epistle to Innocent the first profess that the Popes Authority is grounded upon Scripture and consequently proceeds from Christ. But whoever seriously reads and throughly considers that Epistle will find no such thing as that you aim at there . For the scope of the Epistle is to perswade Pope Innocent to appear against Coelestius and Pelagius ; to that end they give first an account of their Doctrine , shewing how pernicious and contrary to Scripture it was ; after which they tell him that Pelagius being at Jerusalem was like to do a great deal of mischief there , but that many of the Brethren opposed him and especially St. Hierom. But we , say they , do suppose that through the mercy of our Lord Christ assisting you , those which hold such perverse and pernicious principles may more easily yield by your Authority drawn out of Scripture . Where they do not in the least dream of his Authority as Vniversal Pastor being grounded on Scripture , but of his appearing against the Pelagians with his Authority drawn out of Scripture , that is , to that Authority which he had in the Church , by the reputation of the Roman See , the Authority of the Scripture being added , which was so clear against the Pelagians , or both these going together were the most probable way to suppress their Doctrine . And it hath been sufficiently proved by others , by very many instances of the writers about that Age , that Authoritas was no more then Rescriptum ; as particularly appears by many passages in Leo's Epistles , in which sense no more is expressed by this , than , that by the Pope's Answer to the Council drawn out of the Authority of Scripture , the Pelagians might more probably be suppressed . But what is this to an Vniversal Pastorship given by Christ to him ; any otherwise then to those who sat in any other Apostolical Sees ? But your great quarrel is against his Lordship , for making all the Patriarchs even and equal , as to Principality of power : and when he saith , Equal as the Apostles were , you say , that is aequivocal ; for though the Apostles had equal jurisdiction over the whole Church , yet St. Peter alone had jurisdiction over the Apostles ; but this is neither proved from John 21. nor is it at all clear in Antiquity as will appear when we come to that Subject . But this assertion of the equality of Protestants is so destructive to your pretensions in behalf of the Church of Rome , that you set your self more particularly to disprove it ; which you offer to do by two things . 1. By a Canon of the Nicene Council . 2. By the practise of the ancient Church . You begin with the first of them , and tell us , That 't is contrary to the Council of Nice , In the third Canon whereof , which concerns the jurisdiction of Patriarchs , the Authority ( or Principality if you will ) of the Bishop of Rome is made the Pattern , and Model of that Authority and Jurisdiction which Patriarchs were to exercise over the Provincial Bishops . The words of the Canon are these . Sicque praeest Patriarcha iis omnibus , qui sub ejus potestate sunt , sicut ille qui tenet sedem Romae , caput est & princeps omnium Patriarcharum , The Patriarch ( say they ) is in the same manner over all those that are under his Authority , as he who holds the See of Rome is head and Prince of the Patriarchs . And in the same Canon the Pope is afterwards styled , Petro similis & Authoritate par , resembling St. Peter and his equal in Authority . These are big words indeed and to your purpose , if ever any such thing had been decreed by the Council of Nice ; but I shall evidently prove that this Canon is supposititious , and a notorious piece of Forgery . Which forgery is much increased by you when you tell us , these words are contained in the third Canon of the Council of Nice : Which in the Greek Editions of the Canons by du Tillet , and the Codex Canonum by Justellus , and all other extant , in the Latin versions of Dionysius Exiguus , and Isidore Mercator , is wholly against the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. such kind of women which Clergy men took into their houses , neither as wives or Concubines , but under a pretext of piety . In the Arabick Edition of the Nicene Canons , set out by Alphonsus Pisanus , the third Canon is against the ordination either of Neophyti or criminal persons , and so likewise in that of Turrianus . So that in no Edition , whether Arabick or other , is this the third Canon of the Council of Nice ; and therefore you were guilty either of great ignorance and negligence in saying so , or of notorious fraud and imposture if you knew it to be otherwise , and yet said it that the unwary reader might believe this Canon to be within the 20. which are the only genuine Canons of the Council of Nice . Indeed such a Canon there is in these Arabick Editions , but it is so far from being the third , that in the Editions both of Pisanus and Turrianus it is the thirty ninth , and in it I grant those words are ; but yet you will have little reason to rejoyce in them , when I have proved , ( as I doubt not to do ) that this whole farrago of Arabick Canons is a meer forgery ; and that I shall prove both from the true number of the Nicene Canons , and the incongruity of many things in the Arabick Canons with the State and Polity of the Church at that time . In those Editions set out by Pisanus and Turrianus from the Copy which they say was brought by Baptista Romanus from the Patriarch of Alexandria there are no fewer then eighty Canons ; whereas the Nicene Council never passed above 20. Which if it appear true , that will sufficiently discover the Forgery and Supposititiousness of these Arabick Canons . Now that there were no more then twenty genuine Canons of the Council of Nice , I thus prove . First from Theodoret , who after he had given an account of the proceedings in the Council against the Arrians , he saith , That the Fathers met in Council again , and passed twenty Canons relating to the Churches Polity : and Gelasius Gricenus whom Alphonsus Pisanus set forth with his Latin version , recounts no more then twenty Canons ; the same number is asserted by Nicephorus Callistus ; and we need not trouble our selves with reciting the testimonies of more Greek Authors , since Binius himself confesseth that all the Greeks say , there were no more then twenty Canons then determined . But although certainly the Greeks were the most competent Judges in this case , yet the Latins themselves did not allow of more . For although Ruffinus makes twenty two , yet that is not by the addition of any more Canons , but by splitting two into four . And if we believe Pope Stephen in Gratian , the Roman Church did allow of no more then twenty . And in that Epitome of the Canons which Pope Hadrian sent to Charles the Great for the Government of the Western Churches , A.D. 773. the same number of the Nicene Canons appears still . And in a M S. of Hincmarus Rhemensis against Hincmarus Laudunensis , this is not only asserted but at large contended for , that there were no more Canons determined at Nice , then those twenty which we now have , from the testimonies of the Tripartite history , Ruffinus , the Carthaginian Council , the Epistles of Cyril of Alexandria , and Atticus of Constantinople , and the twelfth action of the Council of Chalcedon . So that if both Greeks and Latins say true , there could be no more then twenty genuine Canons of the Council of Nice ; which may be yet further proved by two things , viz. the proceedings of the African Fathers in the case of Zosimus about the Nicene Canons and the Codex Canonum Ecclesiae Vniversae , both which yield an abundant testimony to our purpose . If ever there was a just occasion given for an early and exact search into the authentick Canons of the Council of Nice , it was certainly in that grand Debate between the African Fathers and the Roman Bishops in the case of Appeals . For Zosimus challenging not only a right of Appeals to himself , but a power of dispatching Legats unto the African Churches to hear causes there , and all this by vertue of a Canon in the Nicene Council , and this being delivered to them in Council by Faustinus , Philippus , and Asellus whom Zosimus sent into Africa , to negotiate this affair ; no sooner did they hear this , but they were startled and amazed at it , that such a thing should be challenged by vertue of a Canon in the Council of Nice which they had never heard of before . Upon this they declare themselves willing to yield to what should appear to be determined by the Nicene Canons ; thence they propound that a more exact search might be made into the authentical Copies of them : for they profess no such thing at all to appear , in all the Greek copies which they had among them ; although Caecilianus the Bishop of Carthage were present in the Council of Nice and brought home those Copies which were preserved in the Church of Africa . For in all the subscriptions of the Nicene Council , whether Arabick or others , the name of Caecilian appears ; now Caecilian was immediate Predecessor in Carthage to Aurelius who presided in that Council wherein these things were debated . And there it is expresly said , There were but twenty Canons . But in order to further satisfaction , they decree that a message should be sent on purpose to Constantinople , Antioch , and Alexandria to find out the authentick Copies of the Nicene Canons , and after a most diligent search no more Canons could be found then what the African Fathers had before . And thence in the Epistle of Atticus of Constantinople written to the Council of Carthage , he acquaints them that he according to their desire had sent them the true and compleat Canons ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of the Nicene Council . And to the same purpose Cyril the Patriarch of Alexandria mentioning their desires of having 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the most true and authentick copies out of the Archives of that Church , so he tells them he had sent ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the most faithful copies of the authentick Synod of Nice . Now if there had been any ground in the world for Turrianus his conjecture , that the Nicene Canons were translated into Arabick by Alexander who was present at the Council , for the Benefit of those in Pentapolis or Aegypt who only understood that language , ( and that before the Nicene Canons were burnt , of which Athanasius complains ) ; who was more likely to have found out these Arabick Canons then Cyril the Patriarch of Alexandria upon this occasion especially , when the full and authentick Copies were so extreamly desired ? And since no such thing at all appeared then , upon the most diligent inquiry , What can be more evident , then that these eighty Arabick Canons are the imposture of some latter age ? Besides , if these Canons had been genuine and authentick , what imaginable reason can be given why they were not inserted in the Codex Canonum as the other twenty were ? For , as Jacobus Leschasserius well observes , we are not to imagine that the Ancient Church was governed at Randome by loose and dispersed Canons , whereby it had been an easie matter to have foisted in false and supposititious Canons ; but that there was a certain body and collection of them digested into an exact order ; so that none could add to or take away any thing from it : and whatever Canons were not contained in this body had no power or force at all in the Church . And that there was such a Codex Canonum , that learned Person hath abundantly proved from the Council of Chalcedon , which hath many passages referring to it ; so that there is now no question made , but that which Justellus published is the true collection of those Canons of the Vniversal Church which were inserted into the Codex ; in which we find but only the twenty Canons of the Nicene Council ; and that there could possibly be no more , appears by the number of the Canons as they are reckoned in the Council of Chalcedon . From whence it follows that only these twenty Canons were ever own'd by the Vniversal Church ; for had the Fathers of the Church known of so many other Canons of the Nicene Council , ( as surely at least the Patriarchs of Alexandria could not be ignorant of them if there had been any such ) can we possibly think that those who had so great a Veneration for the Nicene Council , should have left the far greater part of the Canons of it , out of the Code of the Churches Canons ? I am not ignorant of what is objected by Binius , Bellarmin , and others , to prove that there were more then twenty Canons of the Council of Nice ; but those proofs either depend upon things as supposititious as the Arabick Canons themselves , such as the Epistles of Julius and Athanasius ad Marcum ; or else they only prove that several other things were determined by the Nicene Council as concerning the celebration of Easter , rebaptizing Hereticks , and such like , which might be by the Acts of the Council without putting them into the Canons , as Baronius confesseth ; but there cannot be any evidence brought of any Canon which concerned the Churches Polity ( for about that Theodoret and Nicephorus tell us the Canons were made ) which was not among these twenty . So that it appears that these Arabick Canons are a meer forgery of later times , there being no evidence at all that they were known to the Church in all the time of the four General Councils : and therefore Baronius , ( notwithstanding the pretences of Pisanus and Turrianus from the Alexandrian Copy , and that out of Marcellus his Library , yet ) since these Canons were unknown in the Controversie of the African Church about the Nicene Canons , leaves the Patronage of them to such as might be able to defend them . And Spondanus in his contraction of him , ( though in his marginal note he saith , Baronius was sometimes more inclinable to the inlarged number of the Nicene Canons ) yet he relates it as his positive opinion , that he rejected all but the twenty , whether Arabick or other as spurious and supposititious . You see then what a fair choice you have made of the third Canon of the Council of Nice to prove the superiority of the Pope over other Patriarchs by ; when neither is it the third Canon , nor any Canon at all of the Council of Nice , but a spurious figment like those of Isidore Mercator , who thought all would pass for gold which made for the Interess of the Church of Rome . But were there not such a strong and pregnant evidence from authority to make it appear that these Canons were supposititious , yet the incongruity of them , with the state of the Church at that time would abundantly manifest it , if we had time to compare many of those Canons with it . But that which is most material to our purpose , concerning the equality of the Patriarchs , your following words will put us upon a further enquiry into . This also , say you ( viz. That the Pope was head and Prince of all the Patriarchs ) the practise of the Church shews , which is alwayes the best expositor and assertor of the Canons . For not only the Popes confirmation was required to all new elected Patriarchs , but it belonged likewise to him to depose unworthy ones , and restore the unjustly deposed by others . We read of no less then eight several Patriarchs of Constantinople deposed by the Bishop of Rome . Sixtus the third deposed also Polychronius Bishop of Hierusalem , as his Acts set down in the first Tome of the Councils testifie . On the contrary , Athanasius Patriarch of Alexandria , and Paulus Bishop of Constantinople , were by Julius the first restored to their respective Sees having been unjustly expelled by Hereticks . The same might be said of divers others ; over whom the Pope did exercise the like authority : which he could never have done , upon any other ground , then that of Divine Right , and as being generally acknowledged St. Peters Successour in the Government of the whole Church . Three things I shall return you in Answer to this Discourse . 1. That the practise of the Church doth not shew any such inequality as you contend for between the Pope and other Patriarchs . 2. That no such practise of the Church can be proved from the instances by you brought ; And therefore , lastly , It by no means follows that the Pope exercised any such authority by Divine right , or was acknowledged to be St. Peters Successour in the Government of the whole Church . I begin with the practice of the ancient Church , which is so far from being an evidence of such an inequality of Patriarchs as that you contend for , that nothing doth more confirm that which his Lordship saith concerning the equality of them then that doth . For which we appeal to that famous testimony to this purpose in the sixth Canon of the Nicene Council . Let ancient customes prevail ; according to which , let the Bishop of Alexandria have power over them who are in Aegypt , Libya , and Pentapolis ; because this was likewise the custome for the Bishop of Rome . And accordingly in Antioch and other Provinces , let the priviledges be preserved to the Churches . Which Canon is the more remarkable , because it is the first that ever was made by the ancient Church for regulating the rights and priviledges of Churches over each other ; which there was like to be now more contest about , not only by reason of the Churches liberty under Constantine , but because of the new disposition of the Empire by him , which was made not long before the sitting of the Council of Nice . But the particular occasion of this Canon is generally supposed to be this . Meletius an ambitious Bishop in Aegypt , much about the time that Arrius broached his Heresie at Alexandria , takes upon him to ordain Bishops and others in Aegypt , without the consent of the Bishop of Alexandria . This case being brought before the Nicene Fathers , they pronounce these ordinations null , depose Meletius , and , to prevent the like practises for the future , do by this Canon confirm the ancient customs of that nature in the Church ; so that the Bishop of Alexandria should enjoy as full right and power over the Provinces of Aegypt , Libya , and Pentapolis , as the Bishop of Rome had over those subject to him , as likewise Antioch and other Churches should enjoy their former priviledges . Where we plainly see that the ground of this extent of power is not attributed to any Divine right of the Bishop of Rome , or any other Metropolitan , but to the ancient custome of the Church ; whereby it had obtained that such Churches that were deduced ( as it were so many colonies ) from the Mother-Church , should retain so much respect to and dependence upon her , as not to receive any Bishop into them without the consent of that Bishop who governed in the Metropolis . Which was the prime reason of the subordination of those lesser Churches to the Metropolis : And this custome being drawn down from the first plantation of Churches , and likewise much conducing to the preserving of unity in them , these Nicene Fathers saw no reason to alter it , but much to confirm it . For otherwise , there might have been continual bandying and opposition of lesser Bishops and Churches against the greater ; and therefore the Discipline and Vnity of the Church did call for this subordination ; which could not be better determined then by the ancient custome which had obtained in the several Churches . It being found most convenient that the Churches in their subordination should be most agreeable to the civil disposition of the Empire . And therefore for our better understanding the force and effect of this Nicene Canon , we must cast our eye a little upon the civil disposition of the Roman Empire by Constantine , then lately altered from the former disposition of it under Augustus and Adrian . He therefore distributed the administration of the Government of the Roman Empire under four Praefecti Praetorio ; but for the more convenient management of it , the whole body of the Empire was cast into several Jurisdictions containing many Provinces within them which were in the Law call'd Dioeceses ; over every one of which there was appointed a Vicarius , or Lieutenant , to one of the Praefecti Praetorio , whose residence was in the chief City of the Diocese , where the Praetorium was , and justice was administred to all within that Diocese , and thither appeals were made . Under these were those Proconsuls or Correctores who ruled in the particular Provinces ; and had their residence in the Metropolis of it , under whom were the particular Magistrates of every City ; now according to this disposition of the Empire , the Western part of it contained in it seven of these Dioceses , as , under the Praefectus Praetorio Galliarum , was the Diocese of Gaul , which contained seventeen Provinces ; the Diocese of Britain , which contained five , ( afterwards but three in Constantines time ) the Diocese of Spain , seven . Under the praefectus Praetorio Italiae , was the Diocese of Africa , which had six Provinces , the Diocese of Italy , whose seat was Milan , 7. the Diocese of Rome , 10. Under the Praefectus Praetorio Illyrici , was the Diocese of Illyricum , in which were seventeen Provinces . In the Eastern Division , were the Diocese of Thrace , which had six Provinces , the Diocese of Pontus 11. and so the Diocese of Asia , the Oriental ( properly so called ) wherein Antioch was , 15. all which were under the Praefectus Praetorio Orientis ; the Aegyptian Diocese , which had six Provinces , was under the Praefectus Augustalis ; in the time of Theodosius the elder , Illyricum was divided into two Dioceses , the Eastern , whose Metropolis was Thessalonica , and had eleven Provinces , the Western , whose Metropolis was Syrmium , and had six Provinces . According to this division of the Empire , we may better understand the Affairs and Government of the Church , which was model'd much after the same way ; unless where Ancient custom , or the Emperour's edict , did cause any variation . For as the Cities had their Bishops , so the Provinces had their Arch-Bishops , and the Dioceses their Primates , whose Jurisdiction extended as far as the Diocese did ; and as the Conventus Juridici were kept in the chief City of the Diocese for matters of Civil Judicature , so the chief Ecclesiastical Councils for the affairs of the Church , were to be kept there too ; for which there is an express passage in the Codex of Theodosius , whereby care is taken , That the same course should be used in Ecclesiastical , which was in civil matters ; so that such things which concerned them should he heard in the Synods of the Diocese . Where the word Diocese is not used in the sense the African Fathers used it in , for that which belonged to one Bishop ( as it is now used ) but as it is generally used in the Codex of Theodosius and Justinian , and the Novells and Greek Canons ; for , that which comprehends in it many Provinces , as a Province , takes in several Dioceses of particular Bishops . These things being premised , we may the better understand the scope of the Canon of the Council of Nice ; in which three things are to our purpose considerable ; 1. That it supposeth particular bounds and limits set to the Jurisdiction of those who are mentioned in it . 2. That what Churches did enjoy priviledges before this Council had them confirmed by this Canon , as not to be altered . 3. That the Churches enjoying these priviledges were not subordinate to each other . 1. That particular bounds and limits were supposed to the power of those Churches therein mentioned . For , although we grant that this Canon doth not fix or determine , What the bounds were of the Roman Bishops power , yet that it doth suppose that it had its bounds , is apparent from the example being drawn from thence for the limits of other Churches . For , What an unlikely thing is it , that the Church of Rome should be made the pattern for assigning the limits of other Metropolitan Churches , if that had not its known limits at that time ? And , Can any thing be more absurd or unreasonable , than the Answer which Bellarmin gives to this place , That the Bishop of Alexandria ought to govern those Provinces , because the Roman Bishop hath so accustomed , i. e. saith he , To let the Alexandrian Bishop govern them . Here is an id est with a witness . What will not these men break through , that can so confidently obtrude such monstrous interpretations upon the credulous world ▪ Is it possible to conceive when the Canon makes use of the parallel of the Roman Bishop , and makes that the ground why the Bishop of Alexandria should enjoy full power over those Provinces , because the Bishop of Rome did so ; that the meaning should be , That he gave the Bishop of Alexandria power to govern those Provinces ? They who can believe such things , may easily find arguments for the Pope's unlimited Supremacy every where . I make no scruple to grant what Bellarmin contends for , from the Epistle of Nicolaus 1 , That the Council did not herein assign limits to the Church of Rome , but made that a pattern whereby to order the Government of other Churches . And from thence it is sufficiently clear to any reasonable man , that the limits of her Government were , though not assigned , yet supposed by the Council . For otherwise , How absurd were it to say , Let the Bishop of Alexandria govern Aegypt , Libya , and Pentapolis , because the Bishop of the Church of Rome hath no limits at all , but governs the whole Church ? Doth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 import some parallel custom in the Church of Rome , and name therefore what that is , supposing he hath no limits set to his Jurisdiction ? Yes , it may be you will reply , He had limits as a Metropolitan , but not as Head of the Church . Grant me then , that he had limits as Metropolitan , and then prove you , that ever he had any unlimited power acknowledged as Head of the Church . Would they ever have made such an instance in him , without any discrimination of his several capacities , if they had known any other power that he had , but only as a Metropolitan ? Nay , might not the Bishops of Antioch , and Alexandria , be rather supposed to have the greater power , because their Provinces were much larger here than his . And although Bellarmin useth that as his great argument , Why Ruffinus his exposition cannot hold , Because the Bishop of Rome would have a lesser Diocese assigned him , than either the Bishops of Antioch , or Alexandria ; yet when we consider , What hath been said already of the agreement of the Civil and Ecclesiastical Government , a sufficient account may thence be given of it . For as the Praefectus Augustalis had all the Provinces of Aegypt for his Diocese , so had the Bishop of Alexandria ; and , as the Lieutenant of Antioch had that which was properly called the Orient , containing fifteen Provinces under him , so had the Bishop of Antioch ; and by the same proportion , the power of the Bishop of Rome did correspond to the Diocese of the Roman Lieutenant , which was over those ten Provinces , which were subject to his Jurisdiction , as it was distinct from the Diocese of Italy , which was under that Lieutenant , whose residence was at Milan . Here we see then a parity of reason in all of them : and therefore I cannot but think that the true account of the Suburbicary Churches in Ruffinus his exposition of this Canon , is , that which we have now set down , viz. those Churches which lay within the ten Provinces subject to the Roman Lieutenant . But of them more afterwards . That which I now insist on , is , that the Bishop of Rome had then a limited Jurisdiction , as other Metropolitans and Primats had . Nay , if we should grant that the title produced by Paschasinus in the Council of Chalcedon to this Canon , were not such a forgery as that of Zosimus , yet the most that it could prove , was only this , That the Roman Church had alwaies the primacy within her Diocese , i. e. all Metropolitical power ; but not that it had an unlimited primacy in the whole Church , which was a thing none of those Fathers who lived in the time of the four Councils , did ever acknowledge ; but alwaies opposed any thing tending to it , as appears by those very proceedings of Paschasinus at the Council of Chalcedon , and by the Canons of that Council , and of the Council of Constantinople . And it is a rare Answer to say , That those Canons are not allowed by the Roman Church ; for by that very Answer it appears , that they did oppose the Pope's Supremacy , or else doubtless they would have been allowed there . But that the Pope's Metropolitical Power was confined within the Roman Diocese , so as not to extend to the Italick , we have this pregnant evidence , that it appears by the occasion of the Nicene Canon , that the main Power contested for , was that of Ordination ; and it is evident by Theodoret and Synesius his Epistles , that the Bishop of Alexandria did retain it as his due by virtue of this Canon , to ordain the Bishops of Pentapolis as well as Aegypt . But now the Bishop of Rome did not ordain the Bishop of Milan who was in the Italick Diocese ; for S. Ambrose was ordained Bishop by a Synod of Italy at the appointment of the Emperour Valentinian , and by an Epistle of Pelagius 1. A. D. 555. it appears that the Bishops of Aquileia and Milan , were wont to ordain each other ; which , though he would have believed , was only to save charges in going to Rome ; yet as that learned and ingenuous person Petrus de Marcâ observes , the true reason of it , was , because Milan was the Head of the Italick Diocese , as appears by the Council of Aquileia , and therefore the ordination of the Bishop of Aquileia , did of right belong to the Bishop of Milan ; and the ordination of the Bishop of Milan did belong to him of Aquileia , as the chief Metropolitan of the general Synod of the Italick Diocese . Although afterwards the Bishops of Rome got it so far into their hands , that their consent was necessary for such an ordination , yet that was only when they began more openly to encroach upon the liberties of other Churches . But , as the same learned Author goes on , those Provinces which lay out of Italy , did undoubtedly ordain their own Metropolitans , without the authority or consent of the Bishop of Rome , which he there largely proves of the African , Spanish , and French Churches . It follows then from the scope of the Nicene Canon , and the practice of the Church , that the Bishop of Rome had a limited Jurisdiction , as the Bishops of Alexandria , and Antioch , and other Primates had . 2. That what Churches did enjoy priviledges before , had them confirmed by this Canon , as not to be altered . For it makes provision against any such alteration , by ordaining that the ancient Customs should be in force still . And accordingly we find it decreed in the second Canon of the Constantinopolitan Council , That the same limits of Dioceses should be observed , which were decreed in the Council of Nice ; and that none should intrude to do any thing in the Dioceses of others . And by the earnest and vehement Epistles of Pope Leo to Anatolius , we see the main thing he had to plead against the advancement of the Patriarch of Constantinople was , that by this means the most sacred Decrees of the Council of Nice would be violated . We see then , that those priviledges which belonged to Churches then , ought still to be inviolably observed ; so that those Churches which then had Primates and Metropolitans of their own , might plead their own right by virtue of the Nicene Canon . So we find it decreed in that Council of Ephesus in the famous case of the Cyprian Bishops ; for their Metropolitan being dead ( Troilus the Bishop of Constance ) the Bishop of Antioch pretended that it belonged to him to ordain their Metropolitan , because Cyprus was within the civil Jurisdiction of the Diocese of Antioch ; upon this the Cyprian Bishops make their complaint to the General Council at Ephesus , and ground it upon that ancient custom which the Niccne Canon insists on , viz. that their Metropolitan had been exempt from the Jurisdiction of the Bishop of Antioch , and was ordained by a Synod of Cyprian Bishops ; which priviledge was not only confirmed to them by the Ephesine Council , but a general decree passed , That the rights of every Province should be preserved whole and inviolate , which it had of old according to ancient custom . Which was not a decree made meerly in favour of the Cyprian Bishops , but a common asserting the rights of Metropolitans , that they should be held inviolate . Now therefore it appears , that all the Churches then were far from being under one of the three Patriarchs , of Rome , Antioch , or Alexandria ; for , not only the three Dioceses of Pontus , Asia , and Thracia , were exempt ( although afterwards they voluntarily submitted to the Patriarch of Constantinople ) but likewise all those Churches which were in distinct Dioceses from these , had Primates of their own , who were independent upon any other . Upon which account it hath not only been justly pleaded in behalf of the Britannick Churches , that they are exempt from the Jurisdiction of the Roman Bishop ; but it is ingenuously confessed by Father Barns , That the Britannick Church might plead the Cyprian priviledge , that it was subject to no Patriarch . And , although this priviledge was taken away by force and tumult , yet being restored by the consent of the Kingdom , in Henry 8. time , and quietly enjoyed since , it ought to be retained for peace sake , without prejudice of Catholicism , and the brand of Schism . If so , certainly it can be no Schism , to withdraw from the usurped Authority of the Roman Church . But , these things have been more largely insisted on by others , and therefore I pass them over . 3. From thence it follows , that there was then an equality , not only among the Patriarchs ( whose name came not up till some time after the Council of Nice ) but among the several Primates of Dioceses , all enjoying equal power and authority over their respective Dioceses , without subordination to each other . But here it is vehemently pleaded by some , who yet are no Friends to the unlimited power of the Roman Bishop , That it is hardly conceivable , that he should have no other power in the Church , but meerly as Head of the Roman Diocese , and that it appears by the Acts of the Church he had a regular preheminence above others in ordering the Affairs of the Church . To which I answer , 1. If this be granted , it is nothing at all to that Vniversal Pastorship over the Church , which our Adversaries contend for , as due by divine right , and acknowledged to be so by consent of the Church . Let the Bishop of Rome then quit his former plea , and insist only on this , and we shall speedily return an Answer , and shew , How far this Canonical Primacy did extend . But , as long as he challengeth a Supremacy upon other grounds , he forfeits this right , whatever it is , which comes by the Canons of the Church . 2. What meerly comes by the Canons of the Church , cannot bind the Church to an absolute submission , in case that authority be abused to the Churches apparent prejudice . For the Church can never give away her Power to secure her self against whatever incroachments tend to the injury of it . This power then may be rescinded by the parts of the Church , when it tends to the mischief of it . 3. This Canonical preheminence is not the main thing we dispute with the Church of Rome ; let her reform her self from all those errours and corruptions which are in her communion , and reduce the Church to the primitive purity and simplicity of Faith and Worship , and then see if we will quarrel with the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome , according to the Canons , or any regular preheminence in him meerly in order to the Churches Peace and Unity . But this is not the case between us and them , they challenge an unlimited power , and that by divine right , and nothing else will satisfie them but this , although there be neither any ground in Scripture for it , nor any evidence of it in the practice of the Ancient Church . But however , we must see , what you produce for it ; First , you say , The Pope's Confirmation was required to all new elected Patriarchs . To that I shall return the full and satisfactory Answer of the late renowned Arch-Bishop of Paris , Petrus de Marcâ , where he propounds this as an Objection out of Baronius , and thus solves it ; That the confirmation of Patriarchs by the Bishop of Rome , was no token of Jurisdiction , but only of receiving into Communion , and a testimony of his consent to the consecration already performed . And this was no more than was done by other Bishops in reference to the Bishop of Rome himself ; for S. Cyprian writing to Antonianus about the election of Cornelius , saith , That he was not only chosen by the suffrage of the people , and testimony of the Clergy ; but that his election was confirmed by all their consent . May not you then as well say , That the Bishop of Carthage had power over the Bishop of Rome , because his ordination was confirmed by him , and other African Bishops . But any one who had understood better than you seem to do , the proceedings of the Church in those ages , would never have made this an argument of the Pope's Authority over other Patriarchs , since , as the same Petrus de Marcâ observes , It was the custom in those times , that not only the Patriarchs but the Roman Bishop himself upon their election , were wont to send abroad Letters , testifying their ordination , to which was added a profession of Faith contained in their Synodical Epistles . Upon the receipt of which , Communicatory Letters were sent to the person newly ordained , to testifie their Communion with him , in case there were no just impediment produced . So that this was only a matter of Fraternal Communion , and importing nothing at all of Jurisdiction ; but the Bishops of Rome , who were ready to make use of all occasions to advance their own Grandeur , did in time make use of this for quite other ends , than it was primarily intended ; for , in case of any suspicions and jealousies of any thing that might tend to the dis-service of their See , they would then deny their Communicatory Letters as Simplicius did in the case of the Patriarch of Alexandria . And in that Confirmation of Anatolius by Leo 1. which Baronius so much insists on , Leo himself gives a sufficient account of it , viz. to manifest that there was but one entire Communion among them throughout the world . So that if the Pope's own judgement may be taken , this Confirmation of new elected Patriarchs imported nothing of Jurisdiction . But , in case the Popes did deny their Communicatory Letters , that did not presently hinder them from the execution of their office ; as appears by the instance of Flavianus , the Patriarch of Antioch : for although three Roman Bishops successively opposed him , Damasus , Syricius , and Anastasius , and used great importunity with the Emperour , that he might not continue in his place , yet because the Churches of the Orient , Asia , Pontus , and Thracia , did approve of him , and communicate with him , he opposed their consent against the Bishops of Rome . Upon which , and the Emperour 's severe checking them for their pride and contention , they at last promised the Emperour , that they would lay aside their enmity , and acknowledge him . So that , notwithstanding whatever the Roman Bishops could do against him , he was acknowledged for a true Patriarch , and at last their consent was given only by renewing Communion with him ; which certainly is far from being an instance of the Pope's power over the other Patriarchs . Whereby we also see , What little power he had in deposing them ; although you tell us , That it belonged likewise to him to depose unworthy ones , & restore the unjustly deposed by others . But , that the power of deposing Bishops was anciently in Provincial Councils , appears sufficiently by the fifth Canon of the Nicene Council , and by the practice of the Church , both before and after it ; and it is acknowledged by Petrus de Marcâ , that the sole power of deposing Bishops , was not in the hands of the Bishop of Rome , till about eight hundred years since ; and refutes the Cardinal Perron for saying otherwise ; and afterwards largely proves , that the Supreme authority of deposing Bishops , was still in Provincial Councils , and that the Pope had nothing to do in it , till the decree of the Sardican Synod , in the case of Athanasius ; which yet , he saith , did not ( as is commonly said ) decree Appeals to be made to Rome , but only gave the Bishop of Rome power to Review their actions , but still reserving to Provincial Councils that Authority which the Nicene Council had established them in . All the power which he then had , was only this , that he might decree that the matters might be handled over again , but not that he had the power himself of deposing or restoring Bishops : Which is proved with that clearness and evidence by that excellent Author , that I shall refer you to him for it : and consider the instances produced by you to the contrary . We read ( say you ) of no less than eight several Patriarchs of Constantinople deposed by the Bishop of Rome . Surely if you had read this your self , you would have quoted the place , with more care and accuracy than you do : for you give us only a blind citation of an Epistle of Pope Nicolaus , to the Emperour Michael , neither citing the words , nor telling us which it is , when there are several , and those no very short ones neither . But however , it is well chosen , to have a Pope's testimony in his own cause , and that such a Pope who was then in contest with the Patriarch of Constantinople , and that too so long after the encroachments of the Bishops of Rome , it being in the ninth Century ; and yet for all this , this Pope doth not say those words which you would fasten upon him ; that which he saith , is , That none of the Bishops of Constantinople , or scarce any of them , were ejected without the consent of the Bishop of Rome . And then instanceth in Maximus , Nestorius , Accacius , Anthimus , Sergius , Pyrrhus , Paulus , Petrus ; but his design in this , is only to shew that Ignatius the Patriarch ought not to have been deposed without his consent . But what is all this to the Pope's sole power of deposing ? when even at that time the Pope did not challenge it : But , supposing the Popes had done it before , it doth not follow that it was in their power to do it , and that the Canons had given them right to do it , but least of all certainly that they had a Divine right for it , which never was in the least acknowledged by the Church as to a deposition of Patriarchs , which you contend for . But besides this , you say , Sixtus the third , deposed Polychronius Bishop of Hierusalem . Whereas Sixtus only sent eight persons from a Synod at Rome to Hierusalem , who when they came there , did not offer to depose Polychronius by vertue of the Popes power ; but a Synod of seventy or more neighbour Bishops were call'd , by whom he was deposed ; and yet after all this , Binius himself condemns those Acts which report this story , for spurious ; there being a manifest repugnancy in the time of them , and no such person as Polychronius ever mentioned by the Ecclesiastical Historians of that time , and other fabulous Narrations inserted in them . Yet these are your goodly proofs of the Popes power to depose Patriarchs . But we must see whether you have any better success in proving his power to restore such as were deposed ; for which you only instance in Athanasius and Paulus restored by Julius ; whose case must be further examined , which , in short , is this : Athanasius being condemned by the Synods of Tyre and Antioch , goes to Rome , where he and Paulus are received into Communion by Julius , who would not accept of the Decree of the Eastern Bishops which was sent after him to Rome . For Pope Julius did not formally offer to restore Athanasius to his Church , but only owned and received him into Communion as Bishop of Alexandria , and that because he looked on the proceedings as unjust in his condemnation . And all that Julius himself pleads for , is , not a power to depose or restore Patriarchs himself , but only that such things ought not to have been done without communicating those proceedings to him , which the Vnity of the Church might require . And therefore Petrus de Marca saith , that Baronius , Bellarmin , and Perron are all strangely out in this story , when they would infer , That the causes of the Eastern Bishops upon appeal were to be judged by the Bishop of Rome : whereas all that Julius pleads for , is , that such things should not be done by the Eastern Bishops alone , which concerned the deposition of so great a person in the Church as the Patriarch of Alexandria , but that there ought to be a Council both of the Eastern and Western Bishops ; on which account afterwards the Sardican Synod was call'd . But when we consider with what heat and stomack this was received by the Eastern Bishops , how they absolutely deny that the Western Bishops had any more to do with their proceedings , then they had with theirs ; when they say , that the Pope by this usurpation was the cause of all the mischief that followed , we see what an excellent instance you have made choice of , to prove the Popes power of restoring Bishops by Divine right , and that this was acknowledged by the whole Church . The next thing to be considered is that speech of St. Augustine , That in the Church of Rome there did alwayes flourish the Principality of an Apostolick chair . As to which his Lordship saith , That neither was the word Principatus so great , nor the Bishops of those times so little , as that Principes and Principatus are not commonly given them both by the Greek and Latin Fathers of this great and learnedst age of the Church made up of the fourth and fift hundred years , alwayes understanding Principatus of their spiritual power , and within the limits of their several jurisdictions , which perhaps now and then they did occasionally exceed . And there is not one word in St. Augustine , that this Principality of the Apostolick chair in the Church of Rome was then , or ought to be now exercised over the whole Church of Christ as Bellarmin insinuates there , and as A. C. would have it here . To all this you say nothing to purpose ; but only tell us , That the Bishop by this makes way to some other pretty perversions ( as you call them ) of the same Father . For we must know , say you , that he is entering upon that main Question concerning the Donatists of Africk ; and he is so indeed , and that not only for clearing the meaning of St. Augustine in the present Epistle , but of the whole Controversie , to which a great light will be given by a true account of those proceedings . Thus then his Lordship goes on . And to prove that St. Augustine did not intend by Principatus here to give the Roman Bishop any power out of his own limits ( which God knows were far short of the whole Church ) I shall make it most manifest out of the same Epistle . For afterwards ( saith St. Augustine ) when the pertinacy of the Donatists could not be restrained by the African Bishops , only they gave them leave to be heard by forraign Bishops . And after that he hath these words : And yet peradventure Melciades the Bishop of the Roman Church , with his Colleagues the transmarine Bishops , non debuit , ought not to usurp to himself this judgement which was determin'd by seventy African Bishops ; Tigisitanus , sitting Primate . And what will you say if he did not usurp this power ? for the Emperour being desired , sent Bishops Judges , which should sit with him , and determine what was just upon the whole cause . In which passage , saith his Lordship , there are very many things observable . As first , That the Roman Prelate came not in till there was leave for them to go to Transmarine Bishops . Secondly , That if the Pope had come in without this leave , it had been an Vsurpation . Thirdly , That when he did thus come in , not by his own Authority , but by Leave , there were other Bishops made Judges with him . Fourthly , That these other Bishops were appointed and sent by the Emperour and his power ; that which the Pope least of all will endure . Lastly , Lest the Pope and his Adherents should say , this was an Vsurpation in the Emperour , St. Austin tells us a little before in the same Epistle still , that this doth chiefly belong ad curam ejus , to the Emperours care and charge , and that he is to give an account to God for it . And Melciades did sit and judge the business with all Christian Prudence and Moderation . So at this time the Roman Prelate was not received as Pastour of the whole Church , say A. C. what he please ; nor had he Supremacy over the other Patriarchs . In order to the better shaping your Answer to this Discourse , you pretend to give us a true Narrative of the Donatists proceedings , by the same figure that Lucians Book is inscribed De vera historia . There are several things therefore to be taken notice of in your Narrative , before we come to your particular Answers , whose strength depends upon the matters of fact . First , You give no satisfactory account at all , Why , if the Popes Vniversal Pastourship had been then owned , the first appeal on both sides was not made to the Bishop of Rome ; for in so great a Schism as that was between the different parties of Caecilian and Majorinus , To whom should they have directly gone but to Melchiades then Bishop of Rome ? How comes it to pass that there is no mention at all of his judgement by either party , till Constantine had appointed him to be one of the Judges ? St. Austin indeed pleads in behalf of Caecilian , why he would not be judged by the African Synod of LXX . Bishops , that there were thousands of his Colleagues on the other side the Sea , whom he might be tryed by ? But why not by the Bishop of Rome alone , if the Vniversal Pastorship did belong to him ? But your Narrative gives us a rare account , why the Donatists did not go to the Pope before they went to the Emperour , viz. That they durst not appear there , or else knew it would be to little purpose . But by what Arguments do you prove they durst not appear there before , when we see they went readily thither after the Emperour had appointed Rome for the place , where their cause was to be heard ; if they thought it were to so little purpose ? For we see the Donatists never except against the place at all , or the person of the Bishop of Rome ; but upon the command of Constantine made known to them by Analinus the Proconsul of Africa , ten of their party go to Rome to negotiate their affairs before the Delegates . This is but therefore a very lame account , why the first appeal should be to the Emperour and not to the Pope , if he had been then known to be the Vniversal Pastour of the Church . But say you further , The Emperour disliked their proceedings and told them expresly , That it belonged not to him , neither durst he act the part of a Judge in a cause of Bishops . But on what grounds he durst not do it , we may easily judge by his undertaking it at last , and passing a final judgement in this cause himself after the Councils at Rome , at Arles , could not put an end to it . If Constantine had judged it unlawful , could their importunity have excused it ? and could it be any other then unlawful if the Pope were the Vniversal Pastour of the Church ? Do you think it would be accounted a sufficient plea among you now , for any Prince to assume to himself the judgement of any cause already determin'd by the Pope , because of the importunity of the persons concerned in it ? Indeed Constantine did at first prudently wave the business himself , and that I suppose the rather because the Donatists in their Petition had intreated that some of the Bishops of Gaul might umpire the business ; either because that was then the place of the Emperours residence , or else that Gaul under Constantius had escaped the late persecution , and therefore were not lyable to the suspicion of those crimes whereof Caecilian and Felix of Aptung were accused . But however though Constantine did not sit as Judge himself , he appointed Marinus , Rheticius , and Maternus , to joyn with Melchiades the Bishop of Rome in the determining this case . But this he did , you say , to comply with the Donatists . What , to joyn other Bishops with the Head of the Church in equal power for deciding Controversies ? and all this meerly to comply with the Schismatical Donatists ? was this , think you , becoming one who believed the Popes Vniversal Pastourship by Divine Right ? Well fare then the Answer of others who love to speak plain truths , and impute all these proceedings to Constantines Ignorance of his duty , being yet but a Catechumen in Christian Religion , and therefore did , he knew not what : But methinks the Vniversal Pastour or some of those nineteen Bishops who sat at Rome in this business , or of those two hundred whom you say met afterwards at Arles about it , should have a little better instructed him in his duty ; and not let him go so far on in it , as from delegating Judges to hear it , and among them the Head of the Church , to resume it afterwards himself both to hear and determine it . If the Emperour had ( as you say ) protested against this as in it self unlawful , would none of the Bishops hinder him from doing it ? But where doth Constantine profess against it as in it self unlawful ? if so , no circumstances , no importunities could ever make it lawful : Unless you think the importunity of Josephs Mistress would have made adultery no sin in him . If Constantine said he would ask the Bishops pardon in it , that might be , as looking on them as the more competent Judges , but not thinking it unlawful in it self for him to do , as you say . Well but you tell us , It was rather the justice and moderation of the Roman Prelate , that he came not in before it was due time , and the matter orderly brought before him . I am very much of your mind in this , and if all Popes since Melchiades had used the same justice and moderation , to have staid till things had been orderly brought to them , and not usurped upon the priviledges of other Churches , things had been in a far better condition in the Christian world then they are . Had there been none but such as Melchiades , who shewed so much Christian prudence and moderation in the management of this business , that great Schism , which your Church hath caused by her arrogant pretences , might have been prevented . But how come you to know , that this case did properly belong to the Popes cognizance ? who told you this ? to be sure not the Emperour Constantine , who in his Epistle to Miltiades , extant in Eusebius , intimates no such thing ; but only writes to him as one delegated to hear that cause with the other Bishops and gives him Instructions in order to it . Do the Donatists or their Adversaries mention any such thing ? Doth the Pope himself ever express or intimate it ? It seems , he wanted your information much at that time . Or it may be , like the late Pope Innocent in the case of the five propositions , he might say , he was bred no Divine , and therefore might the less understand his duty . But can it possibly enter into your head , that this case came to the Pope at last by way of regular appeal , as you seem to assert afterwards . Is this the way of appeals to go to the Emperour and Petition him to appoint Judges to hear the case ? If the case of appeals must be determined from these proceedings , to be sure , the last resort will be to the Emperour himself , as well as the first appeal . Whether the African Bishops gave leave to the Donatists to be heard by forraign Bishops , or they took it themselves , is not much material ; because the Schism was so great at home , that there was no likelihood of any ending the Controversie by standing to a fair arbitration among themselves . And therefore there seemed a necessity on both sides of referring the business to some unconcerned persons who might hear the Allegations and judge indifferently between them . And no other way did the nineteen Bishops at Rome proceed with them , but as indifferent Arbitrators ; and therefore the Witnesses and Allegations on both sides were brought before them ; but we read of no power at all challenged absolutely to bind the persons to the judgement of the Church of Rome , as the final judgement in the case . The Question , Whether the Pope had usurped this power or no , depends not upon the Donatists Question , Whether Melchiades ought to have undertaken the judgement of that cause which had been already determined by a Synod of LXX . Bishops in Africk ? But upon St. Augustines Answer , who justifies the lawfulness of his doing it , because he was thereto appointed by the Emperour . But when you say , St. Austin gives this answer only per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by way of condescension to his adversaries way of speaking : you would do well to prove elsewhere from St. Austin that when he lay's aside his Rhetorick he ever speaks otherwise , but that it would have been an Vsurpation in the Pope to challenge to himself the hearing of those causes which had been determined by African Bishops . But what St. Augustines judgement as well as the other African Fathers was in this point abundantly appears from the Controversies between them and the Bishop of Rome in the case of Appeals . It sufficiently appears already , That neither our Saviour , nor the Canons of the Vniversal Church gave the Pope leave to hear and judge the causes of St. Athanasius and other Patriarchs and Bishops of the Church ; and therefore you were put to your shifts when you run thither for security . But that which follows is notoriously false , That when he did so interpose , no man ( no not the persons themselves who were interessed and suffered by his judgement ) complained or accused him of usurpation ; when in the case of Athanasius it is so vehemently pleaded by the Eastern Bishops that the Pope had nothing at all to do in it ; but they might as well call in Question what was done at Rome , as he what was done at Antioch . Nay name us any one cause in that age of the Church , where the Pope did offer to meddle in matters determined by other Bishops , which he was not opposed in , and the persons concern'd did not complain and accuse him of meddling with what he had no right to , which are but other words for Vsurpation . You say , The Bishops whom the Emperour sent as Judges with the Pope , were an inconsiderable number to sway the sentence . It seems three to one are with you an inconsiderable number . But say you , The Pope to shew his authority added fifteen other Bishops of Italy to be his Colleagues and Assistants in the business . Either these fifteen Bishops were properly Judges in the cause , or only assistants for better management and speedier dispatch ; if they were Judges , how prove you that Constantine did not appoint them , if they were only assistants and suffragans to the Bishop of Rome , as is most probable ( except Merocles Bishop of Milan ) what authority did the Pope shew in calling his Suffragans to his assistance in a matter of that nature , which required so much examination of Witnesses . But the Pope had more effectually shewn his authority if he had refused the Bishops whom Constantine sent ; and told him he medled with that which did not concern him , to appoint any Judges at all in a matter of Ecclesiastical Cognisance , and that it was an unsufferable presumption in him to offer to send three underling Bishops to sit with him in deciding Controversies ; as though he were not the Vniversal Pastour of the Church himself , to whom alone by Divine right all such things did belong . Such language as this would have become the Head of the Church ; and in that indeed he had shewn his authority . But for him sneakingly to admit other Bishops as joynt-commissioners , forsooth , with him ; and that by the Emperours appointment too ; What did he else but betray the rights of his See , and expose his Infallible Headship to great contempt ? Do you think that Pope Hildebrand or any of his Successours would have done this ? No , they understood their power far better then so ; and the Emperour should have known his own , for offering such an Affront to his Holiness . And if his Bay-leaves did not secure him , the Thunder-bolts of Excommunication might have lighted on him to his prejudice . For shame then never say , That Pope Miltiades shewed his authority ; but rather give him over among those good Bishops of Rome but bad Popes , who knew better how to suffer Martyrdom , then assert the Authority of the Roman See. I pray imagine but Paul 5. or any other of our stout-spirited Popes in Miltiades his place , Would they have taken such things at Constantines hands as poor Miltiades did ? and , for all that we see , was very well contented too ; and thought he did but his duty in doing what the Emperour bid him . Would they have been contented to have had a cause once passed the Infallible judgement of the Roman See , to be resumed again , and handled in another Council , as though there could be any suspicion that all things were not rightly carried there ? and that after all this too , the Emperour should undertake to give the final decision to it ? would these things have been born with by any of our Infallible Heads of the Church ? But good Miltiades must be excused , he went as far as his knowledge carried him , and thought he might do good service to the Church in what he did ; and that was it he looked at more then the grandeur of his See. The good Bishops then were just crept out of the Flames of persecution , and they thought it a great matter that they had liberty themselves , and did not much concern themselves about those Vsurpations which the Pride and Ease of the following ages gave occasion for . They were sorry to see a Church that had survived the cruel Flames of Dioclesians persecution , so suddenly to feel new ones in her own bowels ; that a Church whose constitution was so strong as to endure Martyrdomes , should no sooner be at ease but she begins to putrifie , and to be fly-blown with heats and divisions among her members ; and that her own Children should rake in those wounds , which the violence of her professed enemies had caused in her ; and therefore these good Bishops used their care and industry to close them up ; and rather rejoyced they had so good an Emperour who would concern himself so much in healing the Churches breaches , then dispute his Authority or disobey his Commands . And if Constantine doth express himself unwilling to engage himself to meddle in a business concerning the Bishops of the Church , it was out of his tender respect to those Bishops who had manifested their piety and sincerity so much in their late persecutions , and not from any Question of his own Authority in it . For that he after sufficiently asserted , not only in his own actions , but when the case of Felix of Aptung was thought not sufficiently scanned at Rome , in appointing ( about four months after the judgement at Rome ) Aelianus the Proconsul of Africa to examine the case of Felix the Bishop of Aptung , who had ordained Caecilian . To this the Donatists pleaded , That a Bishop ought not to be tryed by Proconsular judgement : to which St. Austin Answers , That it was not his own seeking , but the Emperours appointing , to whose care and charge that business did chiefly belong , of which he must give an account to God. And can it now enter into any head but yours , that for all this the Emperour looked on the judgement of this cause as a thing not belonging to his Authority ? They who can believe such things as these , and notwithstanding all the circumstances of this story can think the Popes Vniversal Pastourship was then owned , the most I can say of them , is , that they are in a fair way to believe Transubstantiation ; there being nothing so improbable , but upon equal grounds they may judge it true . That the Pope had no Supremacy over other Patriarchs , his Lordship saith , That , were all other Records of Antiquity silent , the Civil Law is proof enough ; And that 's a Monument of the Primitive Church . The Text there is , A Patriarchâ non datur appellatio . From a Patriarch there lyes no appeal . No appeal . Therefore every Patriarch was alike Supreme in his own Patriarchate . Therefore the Pope then had no Supremacy over the whole Church . Therefore certainly not then received as universal Pastor . Two things you answer to this . 1. That this reacheth not the difference between Patriarchs themselves , who must have some higher ordinary Tribunal , where such causes may be heard and determined . Very well argued against the Pope's power of judging : for , in case of a difference between him and the other Patriarchs , who must decide the difference ? Himself no doubt ! But still , it is your way to beg that you can never prove ; for you herein suppose the Pope to be above all Patriarchs , which you know is the thing in dispute . Or , Do you suppose it very possible , that other Patriarchs may quarrel and fall out among themselves , but that the Popes are alwaies such mild and good men , that it is impossible any should fall out with them , or they with others ; that still they must stand by as unconcerned in all the quarrels of the Christian world , and be ready to receive complaints from all places . If therefore a General Council must not be the Judge in this case , I pray name somewhat else more agreeable to reason , and the practice of the Church . But you answer . 2. What the Law saith , is rightly understood , and must be explicated of inferiour Clerks only , who were not ( of ordinary course ) to appeal further than the Patriarch , or the Primate of their Province . For so the Council of Africk determines . But 't is even there acknowledged , that Bishops had power in their own causes to appeal to Rome . This answer of yours necessarily leads us to the debates of the great case of appeals to Rome , as it was managed between the African Bishops , and the Bishops of Rome , by which we shall easily discover the weakness of your answer , and the most palpable fraud of your citation ; by which we may see , What an excellent cause you have to manage , which cannot be defended but by such frauds as here you make use of , and hope to impose upon your Reader by . Your Answer therefore in the general , is , That the Laws concerning appeals , did only concern inferiour Clergy-men ; but that Bishops were allowed to appeal to Rome , even by the Council of Africk , which not only decreed it , but acknowledged it in an Epistle to Pope Boniface . And therefore for our through understanding the truth in this case , those proceedings of the African Church must be briefly explained , and truly represented . Two occasions the Churches of Africa had to determine in the case of Appeals to Rome ; the first in the Milevitan , the second in the Carthaginian Councils : in both which we have several things very considerable to our purpose . In the Milevitan Council they decree , That whosoever would appeal beyond the Sea , should not be received into Communion by any in Africa ; which decree is supposed by some to be occasioned by Coelestius , having recourse to Pope Zosimus , after he had been condemned in Africa . No doubt , those prudent Bishops began to be quickly sensible of the monstrous inconvenience which would speedily follow upon the permission of such appeals to Rome ; for by that means they should never preserve any discipline in their Churches , but every person , who was called in Question for any crimes , would slight the Bishops of those Churches , and presently appeal to Rome . To prevent which mischief , they make that excellent Canon , which allows only liberty of appealing to the Councils of Africa , or to the Primates of their Province , but absolutely forbids all forein appeals . All the difficulty is , Whether this Canon only concerned the Inferiour Clergy , as you say , ( and which is all that the greatest of your side have said in it ) or , Whether it doth not take away all appeals of Bishops too . For which we need no more than produce the Canon it self , as it is extant in the authentick collection of the Canons of the African Church . In which is an express clause , declaring that the same thing had been often determined in the case of Bishops . Which , because it strikes home , therefore Perron and others have no other shift , but to say , That this clause was not in the original Milevitan Canons , but was inserted afterwards . But why do not they , who assert such bold things , produce the true authentick Copy of these Milevitan Canons ? that we may see , What is genuine , and what not : But , suppose we should grant , that this clause was inserted afterwards , it will be rather for the advantage , than prejudice of our cause . For which we must consider , that in the time of Aurelius Bishop of Carthage , there had been very many Councils celebrated there : no fewer than seventeen Justellus and others reckon . But a general Council meeting at Carthage A. D. 419. ( which was about three years after that Milevitan Council which was held 416. as appears by the Answer of Innocentius to it , A. D. 417. ) at the end of the first Session they reviewed the Canons of those lesser Councils , and out of them all composed that Codex Canonum Ecclesiae Africanae , as Justellus at large proves in the preface to his edition of it . So that if this clause were inserted , it must be inserted then , for it is well known , that the case of Appeals was then at large debated ; and by that means it received a more general authority by passing in this African Council . And hence it was that this Canon passed with this clause into the Greek Churches ; for Balsamon and Zonaras both acknowledge it ; and not only they , but many ancient Latin Copies had it too , and is so received and pleaded by the Council of Rhemes ; as Hincmarus , and others , have already proved . But Gracian hath helped it well out , for he hath added a brave Antidote at the end of it , by putting to it a very useful clause , Nisi forte Romanam Sedem appellaverit ; by which the Canon makes excellent sense , that none shall appeal to Rome , unless they do appeal to Rome ; for none who have any understanding of the state of those Churches at that time , do make the least Question , but the intent of the Canon was to prohibit appeals to Rome ; but then , say they , They were only the appeals of the Inferiour Clergy , which were to be ended by the Bishops of their own Province . But this Answer is very unreasonable on these accounts . 1. If Appeals do of right belong to the Bishop of Rome , as Vniversal Pastor of the Church , then , Why not the Appeals of the Inferiour Clergy , as well as Bishops ? Indeed , if Appeals were challenged only by virtue of the Canons , and those Canons limit one , and not the other ( as the most eager pleaders for Appeals in that age , pleaded only the Canons of the Church for them ) then there might be some reason , Why one should be restrained , and not the other ; but if they belong to him by Divine Right , then all Appeals must necessarily belong to him . 2. If Appeals belong to the Pope , as Vniversal Pastor , then no Council or persons had any thing to do to determine who should appeal , and who not . For this were an usurping of the Pope's priviledge , for he to whom only the right of Appeals belongs , can determine , Who should appeal , and who not ; and where , and by whom those Controversies should be ended . So that the very act of the Council in offering to limit Appeals , implies that they did not believe any such Vniversal Pastorship in the Pope ; for , had they not done so , they would have waited his judgement , and not offered to have determined such things themselves . 3. The Appeals of the upper and inferiour Clergy , cannot be supposed to be separate from each other . For the Appeal of a Presbyter doth suppose the impeachment of the Bishop for some wrong done to him , as in the case of Apiarius accusing Vrban the Bishop of Sicca for excommunicating him . So that the Bishop becomes a party in the Appeal of a Presbyter . And if Appeals be allowed to the Bishop , it is supposed to be in his favour , for clearing of his right the better ; and if it be denied to the Presbyter , it would savour too much of injustice and partiality . 4. The reason of the Canon extends to one as well as the other , which must be supposed to prevent all those troubles and inconveniencies which would arise from the liberty of Appeals to Rome ; and , would not these come as well by the Appeals of Bishops , as of Inferiour Clergy ? Nay , Doth not the Canon insist on that , that no Appeals should be made from the Council of Bishops , or the Primates of Africa ; but , in case of Bishops Appeals , this would be done as well as the other : and therefore they are equally against the reason and design of the Canon . 5. The case of Presbyters , may be as great and considerable as that of Bishops , and as much requiring the judgement of the Vniversal Pastor of the Church . As , for instance , that very case which probably gave occasion to the Milevitan Canon , viz. the going of Coelestius to Rome , being condemned of Heresie in Africa : Now , What greater cause could there be made an Appeal to Rome in , than in so great a matter of Faith as that was , about the necessity of Grace . And therefore Petrus de Marcá proves at large against Perron , that in the Epistle of Innocent to Victricius , where it is said , That the greater causes must be referred to the Apostolick See , is not to be understood only of the causes of Bishops , but may referr to the causes of Presbyters too , i. e. when they either concern matter of Faith , or some doubtful piece of Church-discipline . 6. The Pope , notwithstanding this Canon , looked on himself as no more hindred from receiving the Appeals of Presbyters , than those of Bishops . If therefore any difference had been made by any act of the Church , surely the Pope would have remanded Presbyters back to their own Provinces again ; but , instead of that , we see , he received the Appeal of Apiarius . But , for this , a rare Answer is given , viz. that though the Presbyters were forbidden to appeal , yet the Pope was not forbidden to receive them , if they did appeal . But , to what purpose then were such prohibitions made , if the Pope might by his open incouragement of them upon their Appeals to him , make them not value such Canons at all ; for they knew , if they could but get to Rome , they should be received for all them . Notwithstanding all which hath been said , you tell us , That in the Council of Africk it was acknowledged , that Bishops had power in their own cause , to appeal to Rome ; for which you cite in your Margent , part of an Epistle of the Council to Boniface . But , with what honesty and integrity you do this , will appear by the story . Apiarius then appealing to Zosimus , he sends over Faustinus to Africa , to negotiate the business of Appeals , and to restore Apiarius , for which he pleads the Nicene Canons ( an account of which will be given afterwards ) the Fathers all protest they could find no such thing there , but they agree to send Deputies into the East , to fetch the true Canons thence ( as hath been related already ) in the mean time Zosimus dyes , and Boniface succeeds him ; but for the better satisfaction of the Pope , the Council of Carthage dispatch away a Letter to Boniface , to give him an account of their proceedings ; in which Epistle ( extant in the African Code of Canons ) after they have given an account of the business of Apiarius , they proceed to the instructions which Faustinus brought with him to Africa , the chief of which is that concerning Appeals to be made to Rome , and then follow those words which you quote , in which they say , That in a Letter written the year before to Zosimus , they had granted liberty to Bishops , to appeal to Rome ; and that therein they had intimated so much to him . Thus far you are right ; but there is usually some mystery couched in your , &c. for you know very well , where to cut off sentences ; for , had you added but the next words , they had spoiled all your foregoing ; there being contained in them , the full reason of what went before , viz. that because the Pope pretended that the Appeals of Bishops were contained in the Nicene Canons , they were contented to yield that it should be so , till the true Canons were produced . And is this now all their acknowledgement , that Bishops might in their own causes appeal to Rome , when they made only a Provisional decree , What should be done till the matter came to a resolution ? But if you will throughly understand what their final judgement was in this business , I pray read their excellent Epistle to Pope Celestine , who succeeded Boniface ; after they had received the Nicene Canons out of the East . Which being so excellent a Monument of Antiquity , and giving so great light to our present Controversie , I shall at large recite and render it , so far as concerns this business . After our bounden duty of Salutation , we earnestly beseech you , that hereafter you admit not so easily to your ears those that come from hence , and that you admit no more into communion , those whom we have cast out : for your Reverence will easily perceive , that this is forbid by the Council of Nice . For if this be taken care for , as to the Inferiour Clergy and Laity , How much more would it have it to be observed in Bishops ; that so they who are in their own Province suspended from communion , be not hastily or unduly admitted by your Holiness . Let your Holiness also reject the wicked refuges of Priests and Inferiour Clerks ; for no Canon of the Fathers hath taken that from the Church of Africk ; and the decrees of Nice hath subjected both the Inferiour Clergy , and Bishops , io their Metropolitans . For they have most wisely and justly provided , that every business be determined in the place where it begun : and that the Grace of the Holy Spirit will not be wanting to every Province , that so equity may be prudently discovered , and constantly held by Christ's Priests . Especially seeing that it is lawful to every one , if he be offended , to appeal to the Council of the Province , or even to an Vniversal Council . Vnless perhaps some body believe that God can inspire to every one of us , the justice of examination of a cause , and refuse it to a multitude of Bishops assembled in Council . Or , How can a judgement made beyond the Sea be valid , to which the persons of necessary witnesses cannot be brought , by reason of the infirmity of their sex and age , or of many other intervening impediments . For this sending of men to us from your Holiness , we do not find commanded by any Synod of the Fathers . And as for that which you did long since send to us by Faustinus our Fellow-Bishop , as belonging to the Council of Nice , we could not find it in the truest Copies of the Council , sent by holy Cyril our Colleague , Bishop of Alexandria , and by the venerable Atticus Bishop of Constantinople : which also we sent to your predecessor Boniface , of happy memory , by Innocent a Presbyter , and Marcellus a Deacon . Take heed also of sending to us any of your Clerks for executors , to those who desire it , lest we seem to bring the swelling pride of the world into the Church of Christ , which beareth the light of simplicity , and the brightness of humility before them that desire to see God. And concerning our Brother Faustinus ( Apiarius being now for his wickedness cast out of the Church of Christ ) we are confident , that our brotherly love continuing through the goodness and moderation of your Holiness , Africa shall no more be troubled with him . Thus I have at large produced this noble Monument of the prudence , courage , and simplicity of the African Fathers ; enough to put any reasonable man out of the fond conceit of an Vniversal Pastorship of the Bishop of Rome . I wonder not that Baronius saith , There are some hard things in this Epistle , that Perron sweats and toils so much to so little purpose , to enervate the force of it ; for , as long as the records of it last , we have an impregnable Bulwark against the Vsurpations of the Church of Rome . And methinks you might blush for shame to produce those African Fathers , as determining the Appeals of Bishops to Rome , who , with as much evidence and reason , as courage and resolution , did finally oppose it . What can be said more convincingly against these Appeals , than is here urged by them : That they have neither authority from Councils , nor any Foundation in Justice and Equity ; that God's presence was as well in Africk as Rome ( no doubt then they never imagined any Infallibility there ) that the proceedings of the Roman Bishop were so far from the simplicity and humility of the Gospel , that they tended only to nourish swelling pride , and secular ambition in the Church . That the Pope had no authority to send Legats to hear causes , and they hoped they should be no more troubled with such as Faustinus was . All these things are so evident in this testimony , that it were a disparagement to it to offer more at large to explain them . I hope then , this will make you sensible of the injury you have done the African Fathers , by saying , that they determined , the causes of Bishops might be heard at Rome . Your Answer to the place of S. Gregory , which his Lordship produceth concerning Appeals , viz. that the Patriarch is to put a final end to those causes , which come before him by Appeal from Bishops and Arch-Bishops , is the very same , that it speaks only of the Inferiour Clergy , and therefore is taken off already . But you wonder his Lordship should expose to view the following words of S. Gregory , where there is neither Metropolitan , nor Patriarch of that Diocese , there they are to have recourse to the See Apostolick , as being the Head of all Churches . Then surely it follows , say you , the Bishop of Rome 's Jurisdiction , is not only over the Western , and Southern Provinces , but over the whole Church , whither the Jurisdiction of Patriarchs and Metropolitans never extended . See how well you make good the common saying , That Ignorance is the cause of Admiration ; for , Wherefore should you wonder at his Lordships producing these words ; if you had either understood , or considered the abundant Answers which he gives to them ? 1. That if there be a Metropolitan , or a Patriarch , in those Churches , his judgement is final , and there ought to be no Appeal to Rome . 2. It is as plain , that in those ancient times of Church-Government , Britain was never subject to the See of Rome ( of which afterwards . ) 3. It will be hard for any man to prove , that there were any Churches then in the world , which were not under some either Patriarch or Metropolitan . 4. If any such were , 't is gratis dictum , and impossible to be proved , that all such Churches , where-ever seated in the world , were obliged to depend on Rome . And , Do you still wonder why his Lordship produces these words ? I may more justly wonder why you return no Answer to what his Lordship here sayes . But still the Caput omnium Ecclesiarum sticks with you ; if his Lordship hath not particularly spoken to that , it was , because his whole discourse was sufficient to a man of ordinary capacity , to let him see , that no more could be meant by it , but some preheminence of that Church above others in regard of order and dignity , but no such thing as Vniversal Power and Jurisdiction was to be deduced from it . And if Gregory understood more by it , as his Lordship saith , 'T is gratis dictum , and Gregory himself was not a person to be believed in his own cause . But now , as you express it , his Lordship takes a leap from the Church of Rome , to the Church of England : No , neither his Lordship , nor we , take a leap from thence hither ; but you are the men who leap over the Alps , from the Church of England , to that of Rome , We plead as his Lordship doth truly , That in the ancient times of the Church , Britain was never subject to the See of Rome , but being one of the Western Dioceses of the Empire , it had a Primate of its own . This , you say , his Lordship should have proved , and not meerly said . But , What an unreasonable man are you , who would put his Lordship to prove Negatives ; if you challenge a right which the Pope hath over us , it is your business to prove it ; his Lordship gave a sufficient reason for what he said , in saying that Britain was one of the Dioceses of the Empire , and therefore had a Primate of her own . This you deny not , but say , this only proves , That the Inferiour Clergy could not appeal to Rome . What again ? but this subterfuge hath been prevented already . But to pass by what without any shadow of proof you say of the Patriarch of Constantinople 's being subject to the Pope ; and Pope Urban 's calling Anselm the Patriarch of the other world ; which we are far from making the least ground to make Canterbury a Patriarchal See ; which , as far as concerns the rights of Primacy , was so long before the Synod of Bar in Apulia ; we come to that which is more material , viz. your attempt to prove , That Britain was anciently subject to the See of Rome ; for which you instance in Wilfrid Arch-Bishop of York appealing to Rome , about A. D. 673. who was restored to his Bishoprick by virtue of the sentence passed in his behalf at Rome ; and so being a second time expelled , appealed as formerly , and was again restored . To which I shall return you a clear and full Answer in the words of another Arch-Bishop , the late learned L. Primate of Ireland . The most famous , saith he , ( I had almost said the only ) appellant from England to Rome that we read of before the Conquest , was Wilfride Archbishop of York , who , notwithstanding that he gained sentence upon sentence at Rome in his Favour ; and notwithstanding that the Pope did send express Nuncio's into England , on purpose to see his sentence executed ; yet he could not obtain his restitution or the benefit of his sentence for six years during the Raigns of King Egbert and Alfrede his son . Yea King Alfrede told the Nuncio's expresly , That he honoured them as his Parents for their grave lives and honourable aspects ; but he could not give any assent to their Legation , because it was against reason , that a person twice condemned by the whole Council of the English should be restored upon the Popes letter . If they had believed the Pope to be their competent Judge , either as Universal Monarch , or so much as Patriarch of Brittain , or any more then an honourable Arbitratour ( which all the Patriarchs were , even without the bounds of their proper jurisdictions ) How comes it to pass that two Kings successively , and the great Councils of the Kingdom , and the other Archbishop Theodore with all the prime Ecclesiasticks , and the flower of the English Clergy , did so long and so resolutely oppose so many sentences and messages from Rome , and condemn him twice whom the Pope had absolved ? Consider that Wilfride was an Archbishop , not an Inferiour Clerk ; and if an appeal from England to Rome had been proper or lawful in any case , it had been so in this case . But it was otherwise determined by those who were most concerned . Malmsbury supposeth , either by Inspiration , or upon his own head , that the King and the Archbishop Theodore , were smitten with remorse before their deaths , for the injury done to Wilfride , and the slighting the Popes sentence , letter , and Legats . But the contrary is most apparently true ; For first , it was not King Alfrede alone , but the great Council of the Kingdome also ; not Theodore alone , but the main body of the Clergy , that opposed the Popes letter , and the restitution of Wilfride in that manner as it was decreed at Rome . Secondly , after Alfrede and Theodore were both dead , we find the Popes sentence , and Wilfrides restitution , still opposed by the surviving Bishops in the Raign of Alfredes son . To clear the matter past contradiction , let us consider the ground of this long and bitter contention ; Wilfride the Archbishop was become a great Pluralist , and had ingrossed into his hands too many Ecclesiastical Dignities . The King and the Church of England thought fit to deprive him of some of them , and to confer them upon others . Wilfride appealed from their sentence to Rome . The Pope gave sentence after sentence in favour of Wilfride . But for all his sentences , he was not , he could not be restored , untill he had quitted two of his Monasteries which were in Question , Hongestilldean , and Ripon , which of all others he loved most dearly , and where he was afterwards interred . This was not a Conquest , but a plain waving of his sentences from Rome , and yielding of the Question ; for those had been the chief causes of the Controversie . So the King and the Church after Alfredes death still made good his conclusion , That it was against reason , that a person twice condemned by the whole Council of the English , should be restored upon the Popes Bull. And as he did not , so neither did they give any assent to the Popes Legation . This I hope may suffice as a most sufficient Answer to your Objection from Wilfrides Appeal . But you would seem to urge yet further for the ancient subjection of Britain to the Church of Rome , in these words , Again , is it not manifest out of him ( Bede ) , that even the Primitive original Institution of our English Bishops is from Rome ? And for this you cite a letter of Pope Gregory 1. to Augustine the Monk , whom you call our English Apostle ; in which Gregory grants to him the use of the Pall , the proper badge or sign of Archiepiscopal Dignity , and that he condescended , that he should ordain twelve Bishops under his jurisdiction , &c. Behold here , say you , the original Charter , as I may say , of the Primacy of Canterbury ; in this Letter and Mandate of the Pope it is founded ; nor can it with any colour of reason be drawn from other origin . And by vertue of this Grant , have all the succeeding Bishops of that See enjoyn'd the Dignity and Authority of Primats of this Nation . From whence you very civilly charge his Lordship , either with gross Ignorance if he knew it not ; or with great Ingratitude if he knew it . To which I Answer ; that his Lordship knowing this no doubt very well , that Gregory sent Austin into England , &c. could not from thence think himself bound to submit to the Roman Bishop ; and it had been more pertinent to your purpose , not to charge him with Ingratitude , but with Disobedience . For that was it which you ought to prove hence , that the Archbishop of Canterbury ought still to be subject to the Bishop of Rome , because Gregory 1. made Augustine the first Archbishop of Canterbury . A wonderful strong Argument no doubt ! which out of charity to you , we must further examine ; for you tell us , The Original Charter of the Primacy of Canterbury is contained in that Grant. To satisfie you as to this , two things are to be considered , the Primacy it self , and the exercise of it by a particular person in some particular place . If you speak of the Primacy it self , i. e. the independent right of Governing the Churches within the Provinces of Britain , then we utterly deny that this was contained in that Grant. For Britain having been a Province before , in which Bishops did Govern Independently on any Forrein Bishop , no Forrein Bishops could take away that Priviledge from it . I will not stand here to deduce the History of the Bishops of Britain , before Augustines coming into England ; but it is as certain that there were such , as it is that St. Augustine ever came hither . For not only all our own Historians and Bede himself confess it ; but it is most evident from the subscriptions of three of them to the first Council of Arles , Eborius of York , Restitutus of London , and Adelfius de civitate Coloniâ Londinensium ( which some will have to be a mistake for Colonia Camaloduni , whether by that , Colchester , Maldon , or Winchester be meant as it is differently thought ) from the presence of some of them at the Sardican Synod and the Council of Ariminum , as appears by Athanasius and others ; but this I suppose you will not deny , that there were Bishops in England before Austin came . And , that these Bishops had then no dependence on the See of Rome , if it were not sufficiently evident from other Arguments , the relation of the proceedings in Bede himself between Austin and them , about submission , would abundantly discover , as likewise that there was then an Archbishop with Metropolitical power over them , whose ancient seat had been Caerleon . But I consider not this Primacy now as in any particular place , but in general as belonging to the Provinces of Britain , which I say had a Primacy belonging to it , ( whether at York or London is not material ) at the time of the Council of Nice ( according to what hath been formerly said about the state of Churches then ) now the Council of Nice takes care that the priviledges of all Churches should be preserved , i. e. That where there had been a Primacy it should so continue . Now therefore I ask , How came this priviledge of Britain to be lost , which was not only confirmed with others by the Nicene Council , but by that of Chalcedon and Ephesus , in which the ancient priviledges of Churches are secured ? what right had Austin the Monk to cassate the ancient Metropolitical power of the Britannick Church , and to require absolute subjection to himself ? If the Pope made him Archbishop of Canterbury , by what right was he Primate over the Britain Church ? How came the Archbishop then in being to lose his Primacy by Austins coming into England ? Was it because the Britannick Church was then over-run with Pagan-Saxons , and the visible power of it confined to a narrow compass ? Yet I doubt not , but there were many Brittish Christians living here among the Saxons , though oppressed by them , as they were after by the Normans ( for , Where is it that any conquest hath carried away all the inhabitants ? ) and that these did many of them retain their Christianity , though not daring publickly to own it , there are many not improbable circumstances to lead us to suppose . But we will grant that the face of the Britannick Church was only in Wales ; what follows thence ? that the whole Province had lost its right ? Let us suppose a case like this ; as that the Church of Rome should be over-run with a Barbarous people ( as it was by the Goths and Vandals ) and the inhabitants destroyed ; these Barbarous people continuing in possession of it , and that a Bishop should have been sent from Britain to convert them to the Faith , and upon their Conversion to Govern those Churches , and should be made Bishop of that place by the Brittish Bishops ; Whether would he be bound to continue alwayes in subjection to them or no ? If not ; but you say , by his succession in the See of Rome he enjoyes the priviledges of that See , though the inhabitants be altered ; the same I say of the Britannick Churches , though the inhabitants were altered , and Saxons succeeded the Britains , yet the priviledge of the Church remains still as to its Primacy and Independency . And therefore the Popes making Augustine Archbishop , so as to give him withall the Primacy over the Churches in the Province of Britain , was an Vsurpation upon the rights of our Church , which had an absolute and Independent Primacy within it self ; as it was in the case of the Cyprian Bishop . As supposing those ancient Sects of Churches which are over-run with Turks should again be converted to Christianity , the Bishops of those Churches as of Ephesus or the like would enjoy the same rights which the ancient Bishops had ; so we say it was in our case , though the Nation was then over-spread with Paganism , yet Christianity returning , the priviledges of our Churches did return with it ; and whosoever were rightly consecrated Bishops of them would enjoy the same rights which they did before . So that Gregory might make Austin a Bishop and send him to convert this Nation , by which he was capable to Govern the Churches here which he did convert , but he could not give to him the right over these Churches , which Gregory had no power over himself ; neither could Austin or any other Archbishop of Canterbury give away the Primacy of England by submitting himself to the Roman See. What therefore is Gregories Grant to Austin , to the Primacy of England ? If you ask then , How the Archbishops of Canterbury come to be Primates of England ? I Answer , 1. This Primacy must be lodged somewhere ; and it is not unalterably fixed to any certain place , because the Primacy belongs to the Church and not to a particular See. 2. It is in the power of Princes to fix the Metropolitan See in what place is judged most convenient ; thence have been the frequent removes of Episcopal and See's ; as is evident in many examples in Ecclesiastical history , particularly in Justiniana Prima made a Metropolis by Justinian . 3. Where ever the Primacy is lodged it retains its ancient priviledges ; so that there is no need of a succession of our Archbishops from the Brittish Archbishops of Caerleon to preserve the Brittish Primacy ; but that See being removed by the Power of Princes ; the Primacy still remains the same , that it was in the Brittish Metropolitans . And thus I hope I have shewn you , that the Original Charter of the Archbishop of Canterbury's Primacy , was not contained in the Popes grant to Austin . From hence we proceed again to the case of the African Churches ; for ( as his Lordship saith ) the African Prelates finding that all succeeding Popes were not of Melchiades his temper , set themselves to assert their own liberties , and held it out stoutly against Zozimus , Boniface 1 , and Caelestine 1. who were successively Bishops of Rome . At last , it was concluded in the sixth Council of Carthage , ( wherein were assembled two hundred and seventeen Bishops , of which St. Augustine himself was one ) that they would not give way to such a manifest encroachment upon their rights and liberties ; and thereupon gave present notice to Caelestine to forbear sending his Officers amongst them , lest he should seem to induce the swelling pride of the World into the Church of Christ. And this is said to have amounted into a formal separation from the Church of Rome ; and to have continued for the space of somewhat more then one hundred years . For which his Lordship produceth two publick instruments extant among the ancient Councils ; the one an Epistle from Boniface 2. in whose time the reconciliation to Rome is said to be made by Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage ; but the separation , instigante Diabolo , by the Temptation of the Devil . The other is an exemplar precum , or Copy of the Petition of the same Eulalius , in which he damns and curses all those his Predecessours which went against the Church of Rome . Now his Lordship urges from hence ; Either these Instruments are true , or false . If they be false , then Boniface 2. and his Accomplices at Rome , or some for them are notorious forgers , and that of Records of great consequence to the Government and peace of the whole Church of Christ , and to the perpetual Infamy of that See , and all this foolishly and to no purpose : On the other side , if these instruments be true ; then 't is manifest that the Church of Africk separated from the Church of Rome ; which separation was either unjust , or just ; if unjust then St. Austin , Eugenius , Fulgentius , and all those Bishops and other Martyrs which suffered in the Vandalike persecution , dyed in actual and unrepented Schism , and out of the Church ; If it were just , then is it far more lawful for the Church of England by a National Council to cast off the Popes Vsurpation , as she did , than it was for the African Church to separate ; because then the African Church excepted only against the Pride of Rome in case of Appeals , and two other Canons less material ; but the Church of England excepts ( besides this grievance ) against many corruptions in Doctrine , with which Rome at that time was not tainted . And St. Austin and those other famous men durst not thus have separated from Rome , had the Pope had that powerful Principality over the whole Church of Christ , and that by Christs own Ordinance and Institution as A. C. pretends he had . This is the substance of his Lordships discourse to which we must consider what Answer you return . Which in short is , That you dare not assert the credit of those two Instruments , but are very willing to think them forgeries ; but you say , the Schismatical separation of the African Church from the Roman is inconsistent with the truth of story , and confuted by many pregnant and undeniable instances , which prove that the Africans notwithstanding the context in the sixth Council of Carthage touching matter of Appeals , were alwayes in true Catholick Communion with the Roman Church , even during the term of this pretended separation . For which you produce the Testimony of Pope Caelestine concerning St. Austin , the proceeding of Pope Leo in the case of Lupicinus , the Testimonies of Eugenius , Fulgentius , Gregory , and the presence of some African Bishops at Rome . To all which I Answer ; that either the African Fathers did persist in the decree of the Council of Carthage , or they did not : if they did persist in it , and no separation followed ; then the casting off the Vsurpations of the Roman See cannot incur the guilt of Schism ; for these African Bishops did that , and it seems continued still in the Roman Communion ; by which it is evident that the Roman Church was not so far degenerated then as afterwards , or that the Authority of those persons was so great in the Church , that the Roman Bishops durst not openly break with them , which is a sufficient account of what Caelestine saith concerning St. Austin , that he lived and dyed in the Communion of the Roman Church . If you say the reason why they were in Communion with the Roman Church was because they did not persist ; you must prove it by better instances then you have here brought ; for some of them are sufficient proofs of the contrary . As appears by the case of Lupicinus an African Bishop appealing to Leo , who indeed was willing enough to receive him ; but what of that ? Did not the African Bishops of Mauritania Caesariensis excommunicate him notwithstanding that appeal , and ordained another in his place ; and therefore the Pope very fairly sends him back to be tryed by the Bishops of his Province . Which instance as it argues the Popes willingness to have brought up Appeals among them , so it shews the continuance of their stoutness in opposing them . And even Pope Gregory so long after , though in his time the business of Appeals was much promoted at Rome ; yet he dares not challenge them from the Bishops of Africa , but yields to them the enjoyment of those priviledges which they said they had enjoyed from the Apostles times . And the testimonies of Eugenius , and Fulgentius imply nothing of subjection to Rome , but a Praeeminence which that Church had above all others , which it might have without the other ; as London may I hope be the Head-City of England , and yet all other Cities not express subjection to it . But if after that Council of Carthage the Bishops of Rome did by degrees encroach upon the liberties of the African Churches , there is this sufficient account to be given of it ; that as the Roman Bishops were alwayes watchful to take advantages to inhance their power , and that especially when other Churches were in a suffering condition , so a fit opportunity fell out for them to do it in Africa ; For not long after that Council of Carthage , fell out that dismal persecution of the African Churches by the irruption of the Vandals ; in which all the Catholick Bishops were banished out of Africa , or lived under great sufferings ; and by a strict edict of Gensericus , no new Bishops were suffered to be ordained in the places of the former . This now was a fair opportunity for the Bishop of Rome to advance his Authority among the suffering Bishops ; St. Peters pretended Successour loving to fish in troubled waters , and it being fatal to Rome from the first Foundation of it , to advance her self by the ruins of other places . But we are call'd off from the ruins of other Churches , to observe the methods whereby the Popes grew great under the Emperours which his Lordship gives an account of from Constantines time to Charles the Great , about five hundred years , which begins thus , So soon as the Emperours became Christian , the Church began to be put in better order ; For the calling and Authority of Bishops over the Inferiour Clergy , that was a thing of known use and benefit for preservation of Vnity and Peace in the Church . Which was confessed by St. Hierom himself , and so settled in mens minds from the very Infancy of the Church , that it had not been to that time contradicted by any . The only difficulty then was to accommodate the places and precedencies of Bishops , among themselves , for the very necessity of order and Government . To do this the most equal and impartial way was , that as the Church is in the Common-wealth , not the Common-wealth in it , ( as Optatus tells us ) So the Honours of the Church should follow the Honours of the State ; and so it was insinuated if not ordered ( as appears ) by the Canons of the Councils of Chalcedon and Antioch . And this was the very Fountain of the Papal Greatness ; the Pope having his Residence in the great Imperial City . But Precedency is one thing , and Authority another ; It was thought fit therefore , that among Bishops there should be a certain subordination and subjection . The Empire therefore being cast into several Divisions ( which they call'd Dioceses ) every Diocese contained several Provinces , every Province several Bishopricks ; The chief of a Diocese was call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and sometimes a Patriarch ; the chief of a Province a Metropolitan ; next the Bishops in their several Dioceses ( as we now use that word ) , among these there was effectual subjection respectively grounded upon Canon , and Positive Law , in their several Quarters ; but over them , none at all : all the Difference there , was but Honorary not Authoritative . To all this part of his Lordships Discourse , you only say , That it is founded upon his own conjectural presumptions more then upon any thing else ; and that you have shewed a far different Fountain of the Popes Authority from Tu es Petrus , & super hanc Petram , &c. The meaning of what you say , is , That his Lordships Discourse hath too much Truth and Reason to be Answered solidly ; but because it is against the Popes interest you defie him , and cross your self , and cry , Tu es Petrus , &c. and think , this will prevent its doing you any harm . For if we look for one dram of Reason against it , we must look somewhere else then in your Book , though you tell us , You have often evidenced the contrary ; but when and where I must profess my self to seek , and I doubt shall continue so to the end of your Book . But his Lordship proceeds . If the ambition of some particular persons did attempt now and then to break these bounds , it is no marvel : For no calling can sanctifie all that have it . And Socrates tells us , that in this way the Bishops of Alexandria and Rome advanced themselves to a great height 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even beyond the quality of Bishops . Now upon view of story it will appear , that what advantage accrewed to Alexandria , was gotten by the violence of Theophilus Patriarch there . A man of exceeding great Learning and no less violence ; and he made no little advantage out of this , that the Empress Eudoxia used his help for the casting of St. Chrysostome out of Constantinople . But the Roman Prelats grew by a steady and constant watchfulness upon all occasions to increase the honour of that See. Interposing and assuming to themselves to be Vindices Canonum ( as Greg. Naz. speaks ) Defenders and Restorers of the Canons of the Church , which was a fair pretence and took extreamly well . But yet the world took notice of this their aim . For in all Contestations between the East and West , which were not small , nor few , the Western Bishops objected Levity to the Eastern ; and they again arrogancy to the Bishops of the West , as Bilius observes , and upon very warrantable testimonies . For all this , the Bishop of Rome continued in good obedience to the Emperour , enduring his censures and judgements : and being chosen by the Clergy and people of Rome , he accepted from the Emperour , the ratification of that choice . Insomuch , that about the year 579. when all Italy was on fire with the Lombards , and Pelagius the second constrained through the necessity of the times contrary to the example of his Predecessours , to enter upon the Popedome without the Emperours leave , St. Gregory then a Deacon was shortly after sent on Embassie to excuse it . To all these things you give one general Answer , by calling them impertinencies , which is a general name for all that you cannot Answer . The Popes obedience to the Emperours you say was constrained , their ratifications of Popes elections only declaring them Canonical , Socrates was a Heretick , the Eastern Bishops partial : This is the substance of all you say ; whereof the two former are manifestly contrary to the truth of stories ( as , when you desire it , may at large be manifested ) and the two latter the pitiful shifts of such who have nothing else to say . But , though you cannot answer particulars , you can overthrow his whole design ( though you cannot Fiddle , it seems you can conquer Cities , but they must be very weak then . ) His main design , you tell us , is to overthrow the Pope's Supremacy , by shewing , it was not lawful to appeal to Rome ; but Catholick Authours ( to be sure you are in the number ) frame an unanswerable argument for his Supremacy , even from the contrary , thus ; it was ever held lawful to appeal to Rome in Ecclesiastical affairs , from all the parts of Christendom ; therefore , say they , The Pope must needs be Supreme Judge in Ecclesiastical matters . This is evidenced out of the 4 , and 7 , Canons of the Council of Sardica , accounted anciently an Appendix of the Council of Nice , and often cited as the same with it . Will you give us leave to come near and handle this unanswerable argument a little ? for persons of your profession use to be very shie of that . But however , since it is exposed to common view , we may take leave to do it . And seriously , upon consideration of all the parts and circumstances of it , I am of your mind , without flattering you , that it is an unanswerable argument , but quite to another purpose than you brought it for , even against the Pope's Supremacy , as I shall presently discover ; so that those Catholick Authors have served you just as Lazarillo did his blind Master , in bidding him leap over the water , that he might run his head full butt against the tree . For that which your best Authors shun as much as may be , and use their best arts to get besides it , you run blindly , and therefore boldly upon it , as though it were an excellent argument to your purpose . You say , The evidence for Appeals , is from the Canons of the Sardican Synod , but if this be an unanswerable argument for the Pope's Supremacy . 1. How come these Appeals to be pleaded from the Sardican Synod ? 2. How come these Appeals to be denied , notwithstanding the Canons of it ? The former will prove that the Supremacy , if granted from hence , was not acknowledged from Divine Right ; the latter , that it was not universally acknowledged by the Church after ; and therefore both of them will make an unanswerable argument against that which you would prove , viz. the Pope's Supremacy . First , If the Pope's Supremacy be evidenced from hence . 1. How comes it at all to depend on the Canons ? 2. Why no sooner than the Canons of Sardica ? 3. Why not at all mentioned in them ? 1. How comes the Pope's Supremacy , if of Divine Right , to depend at all upon the Canons of the Church ? We had thought it had been much more to your purpose , not to have mentioned any Canons at all of the Church about it , but to have produced evidences , that this was constantly acknowledged as of Divine Institution . But we must bear with you , in not producing that which is not to be found . For nothing can be more apparent , than that when the Popes began to pierk up , they pleaded nothing but some Canons of the Church for what they did , as Julius to the Oriental Bishops , Zosimus to the African , and so others . If it had been ever thought then , that this Supremacy was of Divine Right ; What senseless men were these , to make use of the worst pleas , and never mention the best . For , supposing they had such a Supremacy granted them by the Canons of the Church , Doth not this imply that their authority did depend upon the Churches grant ? and , what the Church might give for her own conveniency , she might take it away , when she saw it abused to her apparent prejudice . And therefore if they had thought that God had commanded all Churches to be subject to them , it was weakly done of them to plead nothing but the Canons of the Church for it . 2. Why no sooner than the Canons of Sardica ? Was the Church of Rome without her Supremacy till that time ? Will no Canons of the Church evidence it before them ? When this Council was not held till eleven years after the death of Constantine . Had the Pope no right of Appeals till it was decreed here ? Yes , Zosimus pleads the Nicene Canons for it ; But upon what grounds , will appear suddenly . 3. Why is not the Pope's Supremacy mentioned as the ground of these Appeals then ? Certainly those Western Bishops , who made those Canons , should have only recognized the Divine Right of the Pope's Supremacy ; and not made a Canon in such a manner as they do ; that would make any one be confident they never knew the Popes Supremacy . For their decree runs thus ; That in case any Bishop thought himself unjustly condemned ; if it seem good to you , let us honour the memory of Peter the Apostle , that it be written by those who have judged the cause , to Julius the Bishop of Rome ; and if it seem good , let the judgement be renewed , and let them appoint such as may take cognizance of it . Were these men mad to make such a Canon as this , if they believed the Popes Supremacy of Divine Institution ? What a dwindling expression is that , for the Head of the Church , to call him Bishop of Rome only , when a matter concerning his Supremacy is decreeing ? And why to Julius Bishop of Rome , I pray ? Had it not been better to S. Peter's successor , whosoever he be ? so it would have been , no doubt , if they had intended a Divine or Vniversal Right . And why for the honour of S. Peter 's memory ? Had it not been more becoming them to have said , out of obedience to Christ's Commands , which made him Head of the Church ? And all this come in with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if it please you ? What , if it please you , Whether the Pope should be Vniversal Pastor , or no ? If it please you , Whether the Church should be built super hanc Petram , or no ? If it please you , Whether the Bishop of Rome succeeds S. Peter , or no ? Are these the men that give such evidence for the Popes Supremacy ? You had better by far never mention them ; for if that was the Lesson they had to say , never any Boyes at School said their Lesson worse than they do . They wanted such as you among them , to have penned their Canon for them ; and no doubt it had run in a better strain ; For as much as our Lord and Saviour did appoint S. Peter Head of the Church , and the Bishop of Rome to succed him as Christ's Vicar upon earth ; these are to let you know that he hath an absolute power by Divine Right over all persons and causes , and that men are bound to obey him upon pain of eternal damnation . This had been something like , if you could have found in some Canons of the Church ; but , to produce a poor sneaking , If it please you , What do you else but betray the Majesty and Grandeur of your Church ? And yet after all this , no such thing as absolute Appeals to Rome are decreed here neither , but only that the Bishop of Rome should have power to review the case ; and in case it was thought necessary , that other persons should be appointed to examine it . But , How much a Review differs from an Appeal , and that nothing but a power to review cases is here given to the Bishop of Rome ; are fully manifested by Petrus de Marcâ , to whom I again referr you . So that we see from hence you have very comfortable evidence for the Pope's Supremacy . 2. Suppose it had been decreed here , you had not gained much by it ; Because , notwithstanding this decree , it was far from being acknowledged by the Vniversal Church . Which I prove from hence , That the Sardican Canons were not received by the Church : Nothing can be more evident , than that these Canons were not so much as known by the African Bishops , when Pope Zosimus fraudulently sent them under the name of the Nicene Canons ; insomuch that Cusanus questions , Whether ever any such thing were determined by the Sardican Synod or no : And it appears by S. Austin , that the Council of Sardica was of no great credit in Africa ; for when Fortunius the Donatist-Bishop would prove that the Sardican Synod had written to some of their party , because one Donatus was mentioned in it ; S. Austin tells him , It was a Synod of Arrians ; by which it seems very improbable , that they had ever received the decrees of the Western , but only of the Eastern part of it , which adjourned to Philippopolis . Neither was this ever acknowledged for an Oecumenical Council , for although it was intended for such by the Emperours , Constans , and Constantius , yet but 70. of the Eastern Bishops appeared to 300. of the Western ; and those Eastern Bishops soon withdrew from the other , and decreed things directly contrary to the other . So that Balsamon and Zonaras , as well as the elder Greeks , say , The decrees of it can at most only bind the Western Churches ; and the arrogating of this power of reviewing causes decided by the Eastern Churches by Western Bishops , was apparently the cause of the divisions between them : the Eastern and Western Churches being after this divided by the Alpes Succiae between Illyricum and Thracia . And , although Hilary and Epiphanius expresly call this a Western Council , yet it was a long time , before the Canons of it were received in the Western Church . Which is supposed to be the reason , Why Zosimus would not mention the Sardican , but called them the Nicene Canons ; which forgery was sufficiently detected by the African Bishops . And it is the worst of all excuses , to lay the blame of it ( as you do ) on the Pope's Secretary ; for , Do you think Pope Zosimus was so careless of his business , as not to look over the Commonitorium , which Faustinus carried with him ? Do you think Faustinus would not have corrected the fault when the African Bishops boggled so at it ? What made him so unwilling that they should send into the East to examine the Nicene Canons , but intreated them to leave the business wholly with the Pope , if he were not conscious of some forgery in the business ? But , you say , as a further plea in Zosimus his excuse , That the Council of Sardica was an Appendix to the Nicene Council rather than otherwise . An excellent Appendix , made at two and twenty years distance from the other , and called by other Emperours , consisting of many other persons , and assembled upon a quite different occasion . If this had been an Appendix to the Nicene Council , How comes that to have but twenty Canons ? How came Atticus and Cyrillus not to send these with the other ? How come all the Copies of Councils and Canons to distinguish them ? How came they not to be contained in the Code of Canons , produced in the Council of Chalcedon , in the cause of Bassianus and Stephanus ? If this were the same Council , because some of the same things were determined , How comes that in Trullo not to be the same with the 6. Oecumenical ? How comes the Council of Antioch not to be an Appendix to the Council of Nice , if this was ; when it was celebrated before this , and the Canons of it inserted in the Code of Canons owned by the Council of Chalcedon ? So that by all the shifts and arts you can use , you cannot excuse Zosimus from Imposture in sending these Sardican under the name of the Nicene Canons . And , on what account the Pope satisfied the Canons then , is apparent enough , viz. for the advancing the Interess of his See ; and this the African Fathers did as easily discern afterwards , as we do now . But by this we see , What good Foundations the Pope's claim of Supremacy had then , and what arts ( not to say frauds ) they were beholding to for setting it up , even as great as they have since made use of to maintain it . CHAP. VI. Of the Title of Universal Bishop . In what sense the Title of Vniversal Bishop was taken in Antiquity . A threefold acceptation of it ; as importing 1. A general care over the Christian Churches , which is attributed to other Catholick Bishops by Antiquity , besides the Bishop of Rome , as is largely proved . 2. A peculiar dignity over the Churches within the Roman Empire . This accounted then Oecumenical , thence the Bishops of the seat of the Empire called Oecumenical Bishops : and sometimes of other Patriarchal Churches . 3. Nothing Vniversal Jurisdiction over the whole Church as Head of it , so never given in Antiquity to the Bishop of Rome . The ground of the Contest about this Title between the Bishops of Rome and Constantinople . Of the proceedings of the Council of Chalcedon , about the Popes Supremacy . Of the Grammatical and Metaphorical sense of this Title . Many arguments to prove it impossible that S. Gregory should understand it in the Grammatical sense . The great absurdities consequent upon it . S. Gregory's Reasons proved to hold against that sense of it which is admitted in the Church of Rome . Of Irenaeus his opposition to Victor's excommunicating the Asian Bishops , argues no authority he had over them . What the more powerful principality in Irenaeus is . Ruffinus his Interpretation of the 6. Nicene Canon vindicated . The Suburbicary Churches cannot be understood of all the Churches in the Roman Empire . The Pope no Infallible successor of S. Peter , nor so acknowledged to be by Epiphanius . S. Peter had no Supremacy of Power over the Apostles . HIs Lordship having undertaken to give an account , How the Popes rose by degrees to their Greatness under the Christian Emperours ; in prosecution of that , necessarily falls upon the Title of Vniversal Bishop affected by John the Patriarch of Constantinople , and condemned by Pelagius 1. and Gregory 2. This you call a trite and beaten way , because I suppose the truth is so plain and evident in it ; but withall , you tell us , This Objection hath been satisfied a hundred times over ; if you had said , the same Answer had been repeated so often over , you had said true ; but if you say , that it hath been satisfied once , you say more than you are able to defend , as will evidently appear by your very unsatisfactory Answer , which at last you give to it . So that if none of your party have been any wiser than your self in this matter ; I am so far from being satisfied with what they say , that I can only pitty those persons , whose interest swayes their understandings so much ( or at least their expressions ) as to make them say any thing that seems to be for their purpose , though in it self never so senseless or unreasonable . And I can scarce hold my self from saying with the Oratour , when a like Objection to this was offered him , because multitudes had said so , Quasi verò quidquam sit tam valdè , quàm nihil sapere , vulgare , That truth and reason are the greatest Novelties in the world . For seriously , Were it possible for men of common understanding , to rest satisfied with such pitiful shifts as you are fain to make , if they would but use any freedom in enquiring , and any liberty of judging when they had done ? But when once men have given ( not to say sold away ) the exercise of their free reason , by addicting themselves to a particular interest , there can scarce any thing be imagined so absurd , but it passeth currently from one to another , because they are bound to receive all blindfold , and in the same manner to deliver it to others . By which means it is an easie matter , for the greatest nonsense and contradictions to be said a hundred times over . And , Whether it be not so in the present case , is that we are now to enquire into . And for the same ends which you propose to your self , viz. that all obscurity may be taken away , and the truth clearly appear ; I shall in the first place set down , What his Lordship saith , and then distinctly examine What you reply in Answer to it . Thus then his Lordship proceeds . About this time brake out the ambition of John Patriarch of Constantinople , affecting to be Vniversal Bishop . He was countenanced in this by Mauricius the Emperour , but sowrely opposed by Pelagius , and S. Gregory : Insomuch that S. Gregory plainly sayes , That this Pride of his shews that the times of Antichrist were near . So as yet ( and this was near upon the point of six hundred years after Christ ) there was no Vniversal Bishop ; no one Monarch over the whole Militant Church . But Mauricius being deposed and murthered by Phocas ; Phocas conferred upon Boniface the third , that very Honour which two of his predecessors had declaimed against as monstrous and blasphemous , if not Antichristian . Where , by the way , either these two Popes , Pelagius and S. Gregory erred in this weighty business , about an Vniversal Bishop over the whole Church : Or , if they did not erre , Boniface and the rest , which after him took it upon them , were in their very predecessors judgement Antichristian . Before you come to a particular Answer , you think it necessary to make a way for it , by premising two things . 1. That the Title of Vniversal Bishop , was anciently attributed to the Bishops of Rome ; but they never made use of it . 2. That the ancient Bishops of Constantinople never intended by this usurped Title , to deny the Popes Vniversal Authority , even over themselves . These two things I shall therefore consider , because they tend much to the clearing the main Controversie . I begin therefore with the Title of Vniversal Bishop attributed to the Bishop of Rome ; and before I answer your particular allegations , we must more fully consider , in what sense that title of Vniversal Bishops was taken in Antiquity , and in what manner it was attributed to him . For when titles have different senses , and those senses evidently made use of by the ancient Writers , it is a most unreasonable thing meerly from the title to inferr one determinate sense , which is the most contrary to the current of Antiquity . The title then of Vniversal Bishop , may be conceived to import one of these three things . 1. A general care and solicitude over all the Churches of the Christian world . 2. A peculiar dignity over the Churches within the Empire . 3. Vniversal Jurisdiction over all Churches , so that all exercise of it in the Church is derivative from him as Vniversal Pastor and Head of the Church . This last is that which you attribute to the Pope ; and though you find the name of Vniversal Bishop a hundred times over , in the records of the Church , yet if it be taken in either of the two former senses , it makes nothing at all to your purpose . Our business is therefore now , to shew , that this title was used in the Church in the two former senses ; and that nothing from hence can be inferred for that Oecumenical Pastorship , which you say , doth , of Divine Right , belong to the Bishop of Rome . I begin with the first , as this Title may import a general care and solicitude over all the Christian Churches : and I deny not but in this sense this title might be attributed in Antiquity to the Bishop of Rome ; but then I assert , that nothing peculiar to him can be inferred from hence , because expressions importing the same care , are attributed to other Bishops , especially such who were placed in the greater Sees , or were active in promoting the Churches interest . For which we must consider , that power and authority in the Bishops of the Church , is given with an immediate respect to the good of the whole Church ; so that if it were possible that every particular Bishop could take care of the whole Church , they have authority enough by their Function to do it . But it not only being impossible that every Bishop should do it , but it being inconsistent with peace and order , that all should undertake it ; therefore it was necessary that there should be some restraints and bounds set , for the more convenient management of that authority which they had . From hence came the Original of particular Dioceses , that within such a compass they might better exercise that power which they enjoyed . As if many lights be placed in a great Room , though the intention of every one of these is to give light to the whole Room ; yet that this might the better be done , these lights are conveniently placed in the several parts of it . And this is that which S. Cyprian means in that famous expression of his , That there is but one Bishoprick in the whole world , a part of which is held by every Bishop ; For the Church in common is designed as the Diocese of all Bishops , which is set out into several appartiments for the more advantagious governing of it . As a flock of many thousand sheep , being committed to the care of many Shepherds , these all have an eye to the good of the whole Flock , but do not therefore sit altogether in one place to over-see it ; but every one hath his share to look after , for the benefit of the Whole : But yet so , that upon occasion , one of them may extend his care beyond his own division , and may be very useful for the whole , by counsel and direction . Thus we shall find it was in the Primitive Church ; though every Bishop had his particular Charge , yet still they regarded the common good of the whole Church , and upon occasion did extend their counsel and advice far beyond their particular Churches ; and exercised their Functions in other places besides those , which the Churches convenience had allotted to them . Hence it was , that , dissentions arising between the Asian and Roman Churches , Polycarp comes to Rome , and there , as Eusebius from Irenaeus tells us , He exercised with Anicetus his consent , his Episcopal Function . For , as Valesius observes , it cannot be understood , as Franciscus Florens would have it , of his receiving the Eucharist from Anicetus , but something of honour is implied in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whereas there was nothing but what was common in the other . Hence the several Epistles of Ignatius , Polycarp , Irenaeus , and others , for the advising , confirming , and settling Churches . Hence Irenaeus concerned himself so much in the business between Victor and the Asian Churches , either to prevent , or repeal his sentence of Excommunication against them . Hence S. Cyprian writes into Spain about the deposing Basilides and Martialis , two Apostatizing Bishops , and checks Stephen Bishop of Rome , for his inconsiderate restoring them . Hence , Faustus Bishop of Lyons writes to S. Cyprian , in the case of Martianus of Arles , and he writes to Stephen as being nearer , and more concerned in the business of Novatianism ( for the honour of his predecessors ) in order to his Deposition ; yet so , as he looks on it as a common cause belonging to them all ( cui rei nostrum est consulere & subvenire , frater charissime ) in which they were all bound to advise and help . Hence S. Cyprian writes to the Bishop of Rome , as his Brother and Colleague , without the least intimation of deriving any Jurisdiction from him , but often expressing that charge which was committed to every Bishop , which he must look to as mindful of the account he must give to God. Hence Nazianzen saith of S. Cyprian , That he not only governed the Churches of Carthage and Africa , but all the Western parts , and even almost all the Eastern , Southern , and Northern too , as far as his fame went. Hence Arsenius writes to Athanasius , We embrace Peace and Vnity with the Catholick Church , over which thou , through the Grace of God , dost preside . Hence Gregory Nazianzen saith of Athanasius , That he made Laws for the whole earth . Hence S. Basil writes to him , That he had care of all the Churches , as of his own ; and in the same Epistle calls him , The Head and chief over all . Hence S. Chrysostome in the praise of Eustathius the Patriarch of Antioch , saith , That he was instructed by the Divine Spirit , that he was not only to have care of that Church over which he was set , but of the whole Church throughout the world . Hence came the great endeavours of Theophilus and Cyril , Patriarchs of Alexandria , of Eusebius Vercellensis , Hilarius Pictaviensis , and several others , for rooting out of Heresies ; not confining themselves to those Provinces allotted to them , but extending their care over other Churches . Hence came frequent ordinations of persons out of their own Dioceses , as of Paulinus at Antioch by Lucifer Caralitanus , of many Bishops in Syria and Mesopotamia by Eusebius Samosatenus ; and of a Presbyter at Bethleem by Epiphanius ; who when he was quarrel'd at by John of Hierusalem for it , he defends his action by this saying , That , In Sacerdotio Dei nulla est diversitas , i. e. where-ever a Bishop was , he might exercise his power as such , although the Churches prudence had set limits to their ordinary Jurisdiction . From these things then we see , that a general care and solicitude of the Vniversal Church , doth belong to every Bishop , and that some of them have been expresly said to have had the care of the whole Church , which in other terms is to say , They were Vniversal Bishops . So that from this sense of the Title , you gain nothing to your purpose , though the care of the Vniversal Church be attributed to the Bishop of Rome , though he acts and calls Councils , and orders other things out of his own Province , yet all this proves not the Supremacy you intend ; for this is no more than other Bishops did , whom you will not acknowledge to be Heads of the Church , or Vniversal Bishops in that sense . 2. An Vniversal Bishop denotes a peculiar dignity over the Churches within the Roman Empire : For which , two things will be sufficient to manifest it . 1. That the Roman Empire was then accounted Vniversal . 2. That some Bishops in the Great Churches , were on that account called Oecumenical or Vniversal Bishops . 1. That the Roman Empire was then accounted Vniversal ; for which multitudes of testimonies might be cited , in which orbis Romanus , and orbis humanus were looked on as Synonymous ; thence Trebellius Pollio in Macrianus , qui ex diversis partibus orbis Romani restituant : and as Salmasius witnesseth in those writers of the Imperial History ; most of the ancient M S S. for orbis Romanus have orbis humanus ; for , as he saith , Eâ gloriâ fuerunt Romani , ut totum orbem suum vocarent ; hinc orbis Romanus passim apud auctores reperitur pro universo orbe ; thence they called the Roman people , omnium gentium victorem ; and from hence Ammianus Marcellinus calls Rome , caput mundi ( the head of the world ) and the Roman Senate , Asylum mundi totius ( the Sanctuary for the whole world ; ) thence Spartianus saith of Severus , orbem terrarum Romamque despexit , when , as Casaubon observes , he speaks only of the Roman Provinces . And from hence , whatever was out of the Roman Empire , was called Barbaria , thence the rura vicina Barbariae in Lampridius , for the Marches which lay next to the enemies Country ; thence Marcellinus , visus est in Barbarico miles , and in the Imperial Constitutions , as Justellus observes , Barbari vocantur ; quicunque Imperio Romano non parebant ( all were called barbarous out of the Roman Empire ) and in the same sense barbaricum is used in the 58. Canon of the African Code , and in the 206. Canon of the Code of the Vniversal Church , that the Bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. out of the Roman Empire , should be ordained by the Patriarch of Constantinople . Now , since the Roman Empire was called orbis Romanus , and in Greek , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( as appears , in that Augusius , Luk. 2.1 . is said to tax 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the whole world , which could be only the Roman Empire ; and the famine in the same , is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Act. 11.28 . ) it is no wonder if these Bishops who enjoyed the greatest dignity in the Roman Empire were called Oecumenical ; and those Councils so too , which consisted of the Bishops within those bounds . I come therefore to the second thing , That some Bishops in the Great Churches in the Roman Empire , were called Oecumenical , as that relates to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , viz. the Roman Empire . For which we may consider , the primary ground of the advancement of the Patriarch of Constantinople , was the greatness of the City , as is undeniably manifest by the proceedings of the Councils of Constantinople , and Chalcedon about him ; wherein it was decreed , since that was New-Rome , that it should enjoy equal priviledges with the old . And in all probability the ground of the Patriarch of Constantinople's usurping the title of Oecumenical Patriarch was but to correspond with the greatness of his City , which at the time of the contest between Pope Gregory , and him , was in a better condition than Rome it self ; being the seat of the Empire , and therefore he thought it suitable thereto , to be called Oecumenical Patriarch . But besides this peculiarity of Constantinople , it was no unusual thing for the Bishop of the Patriarchal Churches , to have expressions given them , tantamount to the title of Vniversal Bishop in any sense but that of the Vniversal Jurisdiction ; which I shall prove as to the three Patriarchs of Alexandria , Antioch , and Constantinople . First , Of Alexandria : So Greg. Nazianzen saith of Athanasius , being made Bishop there , he had the Government of that people committed to him , which is as much as to say , of the whole world ; and John of Hierusalem , writing to Theophilus Patriarch of Alexandria , saith , That he had the care of all the Churches . And St. Basil writes to Athanasius about the establishing of Meletius as Patriarch of Antioch , that so he might govern as it were the whole body of the Church . But most clear and full to that purpose is the testimony of Theodoret concerning Nestorius being made Patriarch of Constantinople . He was intrusted with the Government of the Catholick Church of the Orthodox at Constantinople , and thereby of the whole world . What work would you make with so illustrious a testimony in Antiquity for the Bishop of Rome as this is for the Patriarch of Constantinople ? Use therefore and interpret but these testimonies as kindly as you do any for the Roman See , and will you not find as large a power over the Church attributed to the other Patriarchs as you do to the Bishop of Rome ? What is it then you would infer from the title of Vniversal Bishop being attributed to him ? Will the very title do more then what is signified by it ? Or must it of necessity import something more when given to the Bishop of Rome then it doth when given to other Bishops ? if it doth , you must prove it from some other Arguments , and not barely from the title being attributed to them . Thus you see , though the title were granted to be attributed to him , there is nothing new , nothing peculiar in it . But we must further examine , Who they are that attribute this title to him , and what the account is of their doing it . For this , you cite the Council of Chalcedon in a letter inserted in the Acts of it , the Council of Constantinople sub Mena , John Bishop of Nicopolis , Constantinus Pogonatus the Emperour , Basil the yonger , and Balsamon himself . To the first I Answer . 1. That this title was not given by the Council of Chalcedon . 2. If it had , no more was given to the Bishop of Rome , then to the Bishops of other Patriarchal Churches . 1. That this title was not given by the General Council of Chalcedon ; this I know Gregory 1. in his Epistles about this subject repeats usque ad nauseam , that the title of Vniversal Bishop was offered to the Bishop of Rome by the Council of Chalcedon and that he refused it ; but there is as little evidence for the one as the other . That the title of Oecumenical Patriarch was attributed to the Bishop of Rome by some Papers read and received in that Council I deny not , but we must consider the persons who did it , and the occasion of it . The persons were such who came to inform the Council against Dioscorus the Patriarch of Alexandria , and they were no other then Athanasius a Presbyter , Theodorus and Ischyrion two Deacons , and Sophronius a Laick of Alexandria : now these persons not in a letter ( as you relate it ) but in their bills exhibited to the Council against Dioscorus give that title of Oecumenical Patriarch or Archbishop to Leo the Bishop of Rome . And is this now the offer made of the title of Vniversal Bishop by the Council of Chalcedon ? But you say , This was inserted into the Acts of the Council ? I grant it was , but on what account ? not with any respect to the title , but as containing the Accusations against Dioscorus . But where do any of the Bishops of that Council attribute that title to Leo ? which of them mentions it in their subscriptions to the Deposition of Dioscorus , though many of them speak expresly of Leo and Anatolius together with the same titles of honour to them both . Why did not the Council superscribe their Synodical Epistle to Pope Leo with that title ? so indeed Binius rather supposes they should have done , then proves they ever did it : and that only from Gregories Epistle ( not Leo's as he mistakes it ) to Eulogius where he mentions this offer , but upon what grounds we have seen already . But suppose , 2. We should grant , that the Council of Chalcedon should have offered the title of Oecumenical Patriarch or Bishop , to the Bishop of Rome ; there are none who understand any thing of the nature of that title , or the proceedings of that Council , who can imagine they should intend any acknowledgement of the Popes Supremacy by it . For the title it self as to the importance of it was common to other Bishops , especially of the Patriarchal Sees , as I have proved by some instances already , and might do yet by more ; but I shall content my self with the ingenuous confession of Sim. Vigorius ; That when the Western Fathers , call the Roman Bishops , Bishops of the Vniversal Church , they do it from the custome of their Churches , not that they look on them as Vniversal Bishops of the whole Church , but in the same sense that the Patriarchs of Constantinople , Antioch , Alexandria , Jerusalem , are call'd so ; or as they are Vniversal over the Churches under their Patriarchate ; or that in Oecumenical Councils they preside over the whole Church . And after acknowledgeth , that the title of Vniversal or Oecumenical Bishop makes nothing for the Popes Monarchy in the Church . And if it doth not so when given by the Western Fathers , much less certainly when given by the Eastern , especially those who met in the Council of Chalcedon ; For it is evident by their 16 Session , the 28 Canon , and their Synodical Epistle to Pope Leo , they designed the advancement of the See of Constantinople to equal priviledges with that of Rome . And therefore if they gave the Pope the title of Oecumenical Patriarch , or Bishop , it was that he might be willing that the Patriarch of Constantinople might be call'd so too . And if , as Gregory saith , the Bishops of Rome would not accept the title of Vniversal Bishop , the truest account I know of it , is , lest the Patriarch of Constantinople should share with him in it ; but we see when the great Benefactor to your Church the Benigne Phocas , as Gregory himself styles him , gave it to the Bishop of Rome alone , then hands and heart and all were ready to receive it . And I much fear Leo 1. and St. Gregory himself would have been shrewdly tempted to receive it , if it had been offered them upon those terms , that no one else should have it besides them ; but they scorned it till they could have it alone . And for all their declamations against the pride of Anatolius and John , Patriarchs of Constantinople , they must look very favourably on the actions of those two Popes , that discern not their own Pride in condemning of them for it . For usually men shew it as much in suspecting or condemning others for it , as in any other way whatsoever . Thus it was in these persons ; they thought the Patriarchs of Constantinople proud and arrogant , because they sought to be equal with them . But , Was it not their own greater Pride , that they were able to bear no equals ? and it is to be feared , it was their desire to advance their own Supremacy which made them quarrel so much with Anatolius , and John , and Cyriacus . For would they but have been contented to truckle under the Roman Bishops they had been accounted very meek and humble men . And St. Gregory himself , would not sure have thought much to have call'd them so , who most abominably flatters that monster Phocas , after the murder of Mauricius and his Children : for he begins his Epistle to him with , Gloria in excelsis Deo : Glory to God on high , who , according to what is written , changes times and transfers Kingdomes : and after , in such notorious flattering expressions congratulates his coming to the Throne , that any one who reads them would think Phocas the greater Saint ; he rejoyces , that the benignity of his piety was advanced to the Imperial Throne , nay ( laetentur coeli & exultet terra ) let the heavens rejoyce and the earth be glad , and all the people which hath been hitherto in much affliction , revive at the benignity of your actions . O rare Phocas ! Could he do any less then pronounce the Bishop of Rome Vniversal Bishop after this , when poor Cyriacus at Constantinople suffered for his opposing him for the execrable murder of his Master ? Therefore these proceedings of Leo and Gregory yield shrewd matter of suspicion , what the main ground of their quarrel against the Patriarchs of Constantinople was . For before , the Emperours stood up for the honour of Constantinople as being the seat of their Empire , and Rome began to sink , the Empire decaying there ; but now , there was a fit time to do something for the honour of the Roman See ; Cyriacus was in disgrace with the Tyrant Phocas ; and no such time as now to fall in with him and caresse him : and we see Gregory did it prety well for a Saint , but he lived not to enjoy the benefit of it ; but Boniface did however . After the Patriarchate of Constantinople was erected , the Popes had a double game to play , to advance themselves , and depress that , which it was very hard for them to do , because all the Eastern Bishops , as well as the Emperour favoured it . But after equal priviledges were decreed to the Patriarch of Constantinople with the Bishop of Rome , by the Council of Constantinople , they could no longer dissemble their choler ; but had no such occasion ministred to them to express it as after the Canon of the Council of Chalcedon , ( wherein were present 630 Bishops ) which confirmed the former . For then Leo fumes and frets and writes to Martianus , and Pulcheria , to Anatolius and the Bishops of the East ; but still pretends that he stood up for the priviledges of the other Patriarchs and the Nicene Canons , and what not ? but one might easily discern what it was that pinched him , viz. the equalling the Patriarch of Constantinople with himself . Which it is apparent he suspected before , by the instructions he gave his Legats Paschasinus and Lucentius , to be sure to oppose whatever was proposed in the Council concerning the Primacy of that See. And accordingly they did ; and complained that the Canon was surreptitiously made . Which they were hugely overseen in doing while the Council sat , for upon this the whole matter is reviewed , the Judges scan the business , the Bishops protest there were no practises used ; that they all voluntarily consented to it ; and all this in the presence of the Roman Legats ? How comes it then to pass that this should not be a regular and Conciliar action ? Were not the Bishops at age to understand their own priviledges ? Did not the Bishop of Antioch know his own interest as well as Pope Leo ? Must he be supposed more able to understand the Nicene Canons then these 630 Bishops ? Why then was not this Canon as regular as any other . Why forsooth , The Pope did not consent to it . So true is that sharp censure of Ludovicus Vives , that , those are accounted lawful Canons and Councils which make for their interest , but others are no more esteemed then a company of tattling Gossips . But what made the Pope so angry at this Canon of the Council of Chalcedon ? He pretends the honour of the Nicene Canons , the preserving the priviledges of other Patriarchs ; But Binius hath told us the true reason of it ; because , they say , that the Primacy of Rome came , by its being the seat of the Empire ; and therefore not by Divine right : and since Constantinople was become the seat of the Empire too , therefore the Patriarch there should enjoy equal priviledges with the Bishop of Rome . If Rome had continued still the sole seat of the Empire , this reason would not have been quarrelled at ; but now Rome sinking and Constantinople rising , this must not be endured , but all the arts and devices possible must be used to keep it under . And this is the true account of the pique which the Bishops of Rome had to the Patriarchs of Constantinople : From whence we may easily , guess how probable it is that this Council of Chalcedon did acknowledge the Pope Oecumenical Bishop in any other sense then they contended the Patriarch of Constantinople was so too . And the same answer will serve for all your following Instances . For , as you pretend that the Council of Constantinople sub Menna did call Pope Agapetus Oecumenical Patriarch , so it is most certain that it call'd Mennas the Patriarch of Constantinople so too . And which is more , Adrian 1. in his Epistle to Tharasius of Constantinople in the second Nicene Council calls him Vniversal Bishop . If therefore the Greek Emperours and Balsamon call the Pope so , they import nothing peculiar to him in it , because it is most evident they call'd their own Patriarch so likewise . So that you find little advantage to your cause from this first thing which you premise , viz. that the Pope was anciently call'd Vniversal Bishop . But you say further , 2. That the Bishops of Constantinople never intended to deny by this usurped title , the Popes Vniversal Authority even over themselves . This is ambiguous , unless it be further explained what you mean by Vniversal Authority ; for , it may either note some kind of prae-eminence and dignity which the Bishop of Rome had as the chief Patriarch , and who on that account had great Authority in the Church , and this your instances prove that the Patriarchs of Constantinople did acknowledge to belong to the Pope : but if by Vniversal Authority be meant Vniversal Jurisdiction over the Church as appointed the head of it by Christ , then not one of your instances comes near the shadow of a proof for it . Thus having considered what you premise , we come to your Answer it self . For which you tell us , We are to take notice , that the term [ Vniversal Bishop ] is capable of two senses ; the one Grammatical , the other Metaphorical . In the Grammatical sense it signifies Bishop of the Vniversal Church , and of all Churches in particular , even to the exclusion of all others from being properly Bishops ; and consequently displaceable at his pleasure ; as being only his , not Christs officers ; and receiving authority from him , and not from Christ. In the Metaphorical sense , it signifies only so high and eminent a dignity above all other Bishops throughout the whole Church , that though he , who is stiled Vniversal Bishop , hath a true and real Superintendency , Jurisdiction , and Authority over all other Bishops , yet that they be as truly and properly Bishops in their respective Provinces and Dioceses as he himself . This being clear'd ( say you ) 't is evident that St. Gregory when he inveighs against the title of Vniversal Bishop , takes it in the literal and Grammatical sense ; which you very faintly endeavour to prove out of him , as I shall make it presently appear . This being then the substance of that Answer which you say hath been given a hundred times over , must now once for all pass a strict and severe examination . Which it shall receive in these two Enquiries , 1. Whether it be possible to conceive that St. Gregory should take Vniversal Bishop in the literal and Grammatical sense ? 2. Whether all the Arguments which he useth against that title , do not hold against that Vniversal Jurisdiction which you attribute to the Pope as Head of the Church ? 1. Whether it be possible to conceive that St. Gregory should take Vniversal Bishop in the literal and Grammatical sense which you give of it ? And he which can think so , must have some other way of understanding his meaning then by his words and arguments , which I confess I do not pretend to . But if we examine them , we shall find how impossible it is that St. Gregory should ever think that John pretended to be the sole Bishop of this world . 1. Because Gregory saith , That same title which John had usurped was offered to the Roman Bishops by the Council of Chalcedon , but none of them would ever use it , because it seemed to diminish the honour of other Bishops . Now I pray think with your self , whether ever 630 Bishops would consent together to give away all their power and Authority in the Church ? For you say , The literal sense of Vniversal Bishop doth suppose him to be Bishop of all particular Churches , to the exclusion of all others from being properly Bishops , and are displaceable at his pleasure . Can it now enter into your mind that Gregory should ever think that these Bishops should all make themselves the Popes Vassals of their own free choice ? We see even under the great Vsurpations of the Bishop of Rome since , though they pretend ( for all that I can see ) to be Oecumenical Bishops in a higher sense then ever John pretended to , that yet the Bishops of the Roman Communion are not willing to submit their office wholly to the Papal Jurisdiction ; witness the stout and eager contests of the Spanish Bishops in the Council of Trent about the Divine Institution of the Episcopal office , against the pretences of the Italian Party . And shall we then think when the Pope was far from that power which he hath since Usurped , that such multitude of grave and resolute Bishops should throw their Miters down at the Popes feet and offer him in your literal sense , to be sole Bishop of the World. That they would relinquish their power , which they made no question they had from Christ , and take it up again at the Popes hands ? But whether you can imagine this of so many Bishops or no , Can you conceive that Gregory should think so of them ? and he must do it , if he took the title of Vniversal Bishop in your literal sense ; and yet this Gregory saith , Hoc Vniversitatis nomen oblatum est , That very name of Vniversal Bishop was offered to the Pope by the Council of Chalcedon ; Sed nullus unquam Decessorum meorum hoc tam prophano Vocabulo uti consensit . Nothing then can be more plain , then that John took that which the Pope refused . And he that can believe that this title should ever be offered in this literal sense , I despair without the help of Physick to make him believe any thing . 2. This very title was not usurped wholly by John himself , but was given him in a Council at Constantinople . This Gregory confesseth in his Epistle to Eulogius and Anastasius , the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria , that about eight years before , in the time of Pelagius his predecessor , John called a Council at Constantinople in which he endeavours to be called Vniversal Bishop ; so Gregory : but he confesseth elsewhere that he effected it . And it appears by the Epistle of Pelagius himself writ on that occasion , that it was more then a meer endeavour , and that they did consent to it ; else , Why doth Pelagius say , Quicquid in vestro conventiculo statuistis , Whatever they had determin'd in their Conventicle ( as on this account Pelagius calls it , because it wanted his approbation ) ? And it is evident from Gregories zealous writing to the other Patriarchs about it , that they did not ●ook on themselves as so much concerned about it . Now in this Council which met at Constantinople , which was called together in the case of Gregory the Patriarch of Antioch , all the Patriarchs either by themselves or substitutes were present , as Evagrius tells us , and not only they but several Metropolitans too ; now if they had taken this in the literal sense , Can you think they would have yielded to it ? Were not they much more concerned about it then either Pelagius or Gregory were ? for they were near him , and were sure to live under this usurped power of his , and to smart by it , if it were so great as you suppose it to be . But it is apparent by their yielding to it , they looked on it , to be sure , not in the Literal sense , and it may be as no more than the Honorary Title of Oecumenical Patriarch . 3. How comes it to pass , that none of the successors of John and Cyriacus did ever challenge this Title in the Literal sense of it ? For we do not see that they quitted it , for all Phocas gave it to Pope Boniface , since by your own confession , in the Greek Canon-Law , Sisinnius , German , Constantine , Alexius , and others are called Oecumenical Patriarchs : And it appears by the Epistles of Pelagius and Gregory , that was the Title which John had then given him . Si summus Patriarcha Vniversalis dicitur , Patriarcharum nomen caeteris denegatur , saith Pelagius . Si enim hoc dici licentèr permittitur , honor Patriarcharum omnium negatur , saith Gregory . From which words I think it most probable , that the main ambition of the Patriarchs of Constantinople , was not meerly that they would be called Oecumenical Patriarchs , but that Title should properly belong to them as excluding others from it , which was it that touched the Bishops of Rome to the quick ; because then Constantinople flourished , as much as Rome decayed by the oppressions of the Lombards ; and Gregory complained of this to Constantia the Empress , that for seven and twenty years together they had lived in Rome , inter Longobardorum gladios ( among the swords of the Lombards ) and this made them so jealous , that the honour of the Roman See was then sinking , and therefore they stickle so much against this Title , and draw all the invididious consequences from it possible , the better to set the other Patriarchs against it ; and because that would not extend far beyond the Patriarchs themselves , they pretend likewise , that this was to make himself Vniversal Bishop . But not certainly in your Literal sense ; for then Gregory would have objected some actions consequent upon this Title ; in depriving Bishops of their Jurisdiction , and displacing some , and putting in others at his pleasure ; which you say , is the natural effect of this Literal sense of Vniversal Bishop . But we read of nothing of this nature done either by John or Cyriacus ; they acted no more than they did , only enjoyed a higher Title . And this is proved further , 4. By the carriage of the Emperour Mauricius in this business . Gregory writes a pitiful moaning Letter to him about it , and uses all the Rhetorick he had to perswade the Emperour , that he would either flectere , or coercere , incline , or force him to lay aside that arrogant Title : But for all this it appears by Gregory's Letter to the Empress , That the Emperour had checked him for medling in it , and was so far from opposing the Patriarchs Title , that in effect he bid him trouble himself no more about it : Which poor S. Gregory took very ill . And afterwards , when Cyriacus succeeded John in Constantinople , the Emperour being somewhat fearful , lest Gregory at the coming in of a new Patriarch , might , on the account of this new Title , deny his Communicatory Letters , he dispatches a Letter to him to quicken him about it . And he takes it very unkindly that the Emperour should suspect his indiscretion so much , that for the sake of this Title , which he saith , had sorely wounded him , he should deny Communion in the Faith with him ; and yet in the same Epistle saith , That whosoever took the Title of Vniversal Bishop upon him , was a forerunner of Antichrist . But if this name had been apprehended in that which you call , The Literal and Grammatical sense , Would not the Emperour ( being commended by Gregory too for his Piety ) have rather encouraged him in it ? where as he plainly tells him , It was a contest about a frivolous name , and nothing else ; and that there ought to be no scandal among them about it . Upon which Gregory is put to his distinctions of two sorts of frivolous things , some that are very harmless , and some that are very hurtful , i. e. frivolous things are either such as are frivolous , , or such as are not ; for , Who ever imagined , that such things as are very hurtful , are frivolous ? But however , S. Gregory speaks excellent sense ; for his meaning is , that the Title it self may be frivolous , but the consequences of it may be dreadful , and so we have found it since his time . So that this appears to be the true state of the business between them ; the Patriarch of Constantinople , he challengeth the Title of Oecumenical Patritriarch or Bishop , as belonging of right to him , being Patriarch of the chief Seat of the Empire , but in the mean time challengeth no Vniversal Jurisdiction by virtue of this Title : On which account the Emperour and Eastern Bishops admit of it : On the other side , the Bishops of Rome , partly looking at their own interest in it ( for so it appears by one of Gregory's Epistles to the Emperour , that he suspected it to be his own interest which he stood so much up for ) and partly foreseeing the dangerous consequences of this , if Vniversal Jurisdiction were challenged with it , they resolutely oppose it , not meerly for the Title sake , but for that which might follow upon that Title , taking it not in your Literal , but in your Metaphorical sense , as I shall shew presently . But neither party was so weak and silly , as to apprehend it in your Literal sense ; for then neither would the Emperour have sleighted it , nor the Popes opposed it on those terms which they do , and on such grounds which reach your Metaphorical sense . 5. The same Title in the same sense which Gregory opposed it , did Boniface accept of , from the Emperour Phocas . This you confess your self , when you say , That all that Phocas did , was but to declare that the Title in contest did of right belong to the Bishop of Rome only ; therefore the same Title which the Patriarch of Constantinople took to himself before , was both given by Phocas , and taken by Pope Boniface . This then being confessed by you , let me now seriously ask you , Whether the Title of Vniversal Bishop , which Pope Gregory opposed , was to be taken in the Grammatical or Metaphorical sense ? Take now , Whether of them you please ; if in the Metaphorical , all his arguments hold against the Popes present Vniversal Jurisdiction , by your own confession ; if in the Literal and Grammatical , then Pope Boniface had all those things belonging to him , which Gregory condemns that Title for . Then by your own confession Pope Boniface must be the forerunner of Antichrist , he must equal himself to Lucifer in pride , he must have that name of blasphemy upon him , and all those dreadful consequences must attend him and all his followers , who own that Title of Vniversal Bishop , in that which you call the Literal or Grammatical sense of it . 6. Lastly , it appears from S. Gregory himself , that the Reasons which he urgeth against the Title of Vniversal Bishop , are such as hold against that which you call the Metaphorical sense of it ; which in short is , An Vniversal Pastor exercising Authority and Jurisdiction over the whole Church . And It is scarce possible to imagine , that he should speak more clearly against such an Vniversal Headship than he doth ; and urges such arguments against it , which properly belong to that Metaphorical sense of it . As when he saith to John the Patriarch , What wilt thou answer to Christ the Head of the Vniversal Church in the day of judgement , who dost endeavour to subject all his members to thee , under the name of Vniversal Bishop ? What is there in these words which doth not fully belong to your Metaphorical sense of Head of the Church ? Doth he not subject all Christs members to him ? Doth he not challenge to himself proper Jurisdiction over them ? What then will he be able to answer to Christ the Head of the Vniversal Church , as St. Gregory understands it exclusivè of any other ? Doth not he arise to that height of singularity , that he is subject to none , but rules over all ? yet these are the very words he uses ; and , Can any more expresly describe your Head of the Church than these do ? Yet herein he saith , He imitates the Pride of Lucifer , who , according to St. Gregory , endeavoured to be the Head of the Church Triumphant , as the Pope of the Church Militant . And follows that parallel close , That an Vniversal Bishop imitates Lucifer in exalting his Throne above the Starrs of God : For ( saith he ) What are all the Brethren the Bishops of the Vniversal Church , but the Starrs of Heaven ? and after parallels them with the Clouds , and so this terrestrial Lucifer ascends above the heights of the clouds . And again , saith he , Surely the Apostle Peter , was the first member ( not the Head ) of the Holy and Vniversal Church . Paul , Andrew , and John , What are they else but the Heads of particular Churches ? And yet they are all members of the Church under one Head. Can any thing be more clear against any Head of the Vniversal Church , but Christ himself ? when St. Peter is acknowledged to be only a prime member of the Church ? How then come his successors to be the Heads of it ? And , as he goes on , The Saints before the Law , and under the Law , and under Grace , who all make up the body of our Lord , they were all but members of the Church , and none of them would be called Vniversal . And , I pray , let his Holiness consider his following words , Let your Holiness acknowledge what pride it is to be called by that name , which none that was truly holy was ever call'd by . And , Do you think now that these expressions do not as properly reach your Head of the Church , as if they had been spoken by a Protestant against that Doctrine which you all own ? What is there in all this , that implies that others should be no Bishops , but only titular ? yes , they may be as much Bishops as you acknowledge them to be , i. e. as to their power of Order , but not as to their Jurisdiction . For this , you say and defend , comes from the Head of the Church ; or else your Monarchical Government in the Church signifies nothing . Do not you make the Pope Vniversal Pastor of the Church , in as high a sense as any of these expressions carry it ? And when St. Gregory urges so often , That if there be such an Vniversal Bishop , if he fails , the Church would fail too ; Do you deny the consequence as to the Pope ? Doth not Bellarmine tell us , when he writes of the Pope , he writes de summâ rei Christianae , Of the main of all Christianity , and surely then the Church must fail if the Popes Supremacy doth ? And I pray now consider with your self , Whether this Answer which you say hath been given a hundred times over , can satisfie any reasonable man ? Nay , Doth it not appear to be so absurd and incongruous , that it is matter of just admiration , that ever it should have been given once ; and yet you are wonderfully displeased that his Lordship should bring this Objection upon the stage again . But , Do you think your Answers , like your Prayers , will do you good by being said so often over ? Indeed therein they are alike , that they are both in an unknown tongue . Your Literal sense of Vniversal Bishop being in this case no more intelligible than your Latin-Prayers to a Country Congregation . These things being thus clear , I have prevented my self in the second Enquiry , in that I have proved already , that the Reasons which St. Gregory produceth hold against that sense of Vniversal Bishop , which you own and contend for , as of right belonging to the Bishop of Rome . Although it were no difficult matter to prove , that , according to the most received Opinion in your Church , viz. that all Jurisdiction in Bishops is derived from the Pope ( which opinion you cannot but know is most acceptable at Rome , and was so at the Council of Trent ) that that which you call the Literal sense , doth follow your Metaphorical , i. e. If the Pope hath Vniversal Jurisdiction as Head of the Church , then other Bishops are not properly Bishops , nor Christ's Officers , but his . For what doth their power of order signifie as to the Church without the power of Jurisdiction ? And therefore , if they be taken only in partem solicitudinis , and not in plenitudinem potestatis , according to the known distinction of the Court of Rome , it necessarily follows , that they are but the Pope's Officers , and are taken just into so much authority as he commits to them , and no more . And this Bellarmine proves from the very form of the Pope's consecration of Bishops , whereby he commits the power of governing the Church to him , and the administration of it in spirituals and temporals . And you may see by the speech of Father Laynez , in the Council of Trent , How stoutly he proves that the power of Jurisdiction was given wholly to the Bishop of Rome , and that none in the Church besides hath any spark of it but from him ; that the Bishop of Rome is true and absolute Monarch , with full and total power and Jurisdiction , and the Church is subject unto him , as it was to Christ. And , as when his Divine Majesty did govern it , it could not be said that any of the faithful had any the least power or Jurisdiction , but meer , pure , and total subjection ; so it must be said in all perpetuity of time , and so understood , that the Church is a Sheepfold and a Kingdom . And , that he is the Only Pastor , is plainly proved by the words of Christ , when he said , He hath other sheep which he will gather together , and so one Sheepfold should be made , and one Shepherd . What think you now of the Literal sense of Vniversal Bishop , for the Only Bishop ? Are not the Only Bishop , and the Only Pastor all one ? Will not all those words of St. Gregory reach this , which any of you make use of to prove , that he takes it in the worst and Literal sense ; nay , it goes higher . For Gregory only argues , that from the Title of Vniversal Bishop he must be sole Bishop , and others could not be any true Bishops ; but here it is asserted in plain terms , that the Bishop of Rome is the only Pastor , and that as much as if Christ himself were here upon earth ; and therefore if your Literal sense hath any sense at all in it , it is much more true of the Bishop of Rome , than ever it could be of the Patriarch of Constantinople . And therefore I pray think more seriously of what he saith , That to agree in that prophane word , is to lose the Faith ; That such a blasphemous name should be far from the hearts of Christians , in which , by the arrogance of one Bishop , the honour of all is taken away . Neither will it serve your turn to say ( which is all that you have to say ) that this is not the definitive sentence of your Church , but that many in your Church hold otherwise , That there is power of Jurisdiction properly in Bishops . For , although these latter are not near the number of the other , nor so much in favour with your Church , but are looked on as a discontented party , as appears by the proceedings in the Council of Trent ; yet that is not it , we are to look after , What all in your Church are agreed on , but what the Pope challengeth as belonging to himself . Was not Father Laynez his Doctrine highly approved at Rome , as well as by the Cardinal Legats at Trent , and all the Italian party ? Were not the other party discountenanced and disgraced as much as might be ? Doth not the Pope arrogate this to himself , to be Oecumenical Pastor , and the sole Fountain of all Jurisdiction in the Church ? If so , all that ever St. Gregory said against that Title , falls most heavily upon the Pope . For , St. Gregory doth not stand upon what others attributed to him , but what he arrogated to himself , that therein , he was the Prince of Pride , the forerunner of Antichrist , using a vain , new , rash , foolish , proud , prophane , erroneous , wicked , hypocritical , singular , presumptuous , blaspemous Name . For all these goodly Epithets doth S. Gregory bestow upon it ; and , I believe , if he could have thought of more , and worse , he would as freely have bestowed them . If therefore John the Patriarch was said by him to transgress God's Laws , violate the Canons , dishonour the Church , despise his Brethren , imitate Lucifer , How much more doth this belong to him , that not only challengeth to be Oecumenical Patriarch , but the sole Pastor of the Church , and that all Jurisdiction is derived from him ? And by this time I hope you see , that the Answer you say hath been given a hundred times over , is so pitifully weak , absurd and ridiculous , that you might have been ashamed to have produced it once , and much more to repeat it without saying any more for it than you do . For , your other discourse depends wholly upon it , and all that being taken away , the rest doth fall to the ground with it . We must now therefore return to his Lordships discourse , in which he goes on to give an account of the rise of the Pope's Greatness . As yet , saith he , The right of Election , or ratification of the Pope , continued in the Emperour : but then the Lombards grew so great in Italy , and the Empire was so infested with Saracens , and such changes happened in all parts of the world , as that neither for the present , the homage of the Pope was useful for the Emperour ; nor the protection of the Emperour available for the Pope . By this means the Bishop of Rome was left to play his own game by himself . A thing which as it pleased him well enough , so both he and his Successors made great advantage by it . For , being grown to that Eminence by the Emperour , and the greatness of that City and place of his aboad ; he found himself the more free , the greater the Tempest was , that beat upon the other . And then first he set himself to alienate the hearts of the Italians from the Emperour . Next he opposed himself against him . And about A. D. 710. Pope Constantine 1. did also first of all openly confront Philippicus the Emperour , in defence of Images ; as Onuphrius tells us . After him Gregory 2. and the 3. did the same by Leo Isaurus . By this time the Lombards began to pinch very close , and to vex on all sides , not Italy only , but Rome also . This drives the Pope to seek a new Patron . And very fitly he meets with Charls Martell in France , that famous warrior against the Sarazens . Him he implores in defence of the Church against the Lombards . This address seems very advisedly taken , at least it proves very fortunate to them both . For in short time it dissolved the Kingdom of the Lombards in Italy , which had then stood two hundred and four years , which was the Popes security . And it brought the Crown of France into the house of Charls , and shortly after the Western Empire : And now began the Pope to be great indeed . For by the bounty of Pepin Son of Charls , that which was taken from the Lombards , was given to the Pope . So that now of a Bishop , he became a Temporal Prince . But when Charls the Great had set up the Western Empire , then he resumed the ancient and original power of the Emperour , to govern the Church , to call Councils , to order Papal Elections . And this power continued in his posterity . For this right of the Emperour was in force and use in Gregory the seventh's time . Who was confirmed in the Popedom by Henry the fourth , whom he afterward deposed . And it might have continued longer , if the succeeding Emperours had had abilities enough to secure , or vindicate their own Right . But the Pope keeping a strong Council about him , and meeting with some weak Princes , and they oft-times distracted with great and dangerous warrs , grew stronger till he got the better . So this is enough to shew , How the Popes climed up by the Emperours , till they over-topt them , which is all I said before , and have now proved . And this was about the year 1073. Yet was it carried in succeeding times with great changes of fortune and different success . The Emperour sometimes plucking from the Pope , and the Pope from the Emperour , winning and losing ground , as their spirits , abilities , aids , and opportunities were , till at the last the Pope settled himself upon the grounds laid by Gregory 7. in the great power which he now uses in and over these parts of the Christian world . To all this you return a short Answer , in these words ; We deny not but that in Temporal power and Authority the Popes grew great by the Patronage of Christian Emperours . But what is this to the purpose ? If he would have said any thing material , he should have proved that the Popes rose by the Emperours means to their Spiritual Authority and Jurisdiction over all other Bishops throughout the whole Catholick Church ; which is the only thing they claim jure divino , and which is so annexed to the dignity of their office by Christ's institution , that , were the Pope deprived of all his Temporalties , yet could not his Spiritual Authority suffer the least diminution by it . But 1. Doth his Lordships discourse only contain an account of the Popes temporal greatness by the Patronage of Christian Emperours ? Doth he not plainly shew , How the Popes got their power by rebelling , and contesting with the Emperours themselves , How they assumed to themselves a power to depose Emperours : and , Do they claim these things jure Divino too ? 2. What you say of the Popes Spiritual Authority , will then hold good when it is well proved ; but bare asserting it , will never do it . We must therefore have patience till you have leisure to attempt it . But in the mean time we must consider , How you vindicate the famous place of Irenaeus concerning , as you say , the Pope's Supreme Pastoral Authority , from his Lordships interpretation . Yet , before we come to the Authority , it self , there are some light skirmishes ( as you call them ) to be passed through ; and those are , concerning Irenaeus himself . For his Lordship saith , That his Adversarie is much scanted of ancient proof , if Irenaeus stand alone ; besides , Irenaeus was a Bishop of the Gallican Church , and a very unlikely man to captivate the liberty of that Church under the more powerful principality of Rome . And how can we have better evidence of his judgement , touching that principality , then the actions of his life ? When Pope Victor excommunicated the Asian Churches , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all at a blow , was not Irenaeus the chief man that reprehended him for it ? A very unmeet and undutiful thing sure it had been in Irenaeus , in deeds to tax him of rashness and inconsiderateness , whom in words A. C. would have to be acknowledged by him , the Supreme and Infallible Pastour of the Vniversal Church . To which you Answer , 1. To the liberty of the Gallican Church ; As if ( forsooth ) the so much talked of liberties of the Gallican Church , had been things known or heard of in St. Irenaeus his time ; as though there were no difference between not captivating the Liberty of that Church to Rome , and asserting the Liberties of the Gallican Church in her obedience to Rome , yet these two must be confounded by you to render his Lordships Answer ridiculous ; which yet is as sound and rational as your cavil is vain and impertinent But this you pass over and fix , 2. Vpon his reprehending Pope Victor , where ( you say ) that Eusebius hath not a word importing reprehension , but rather a friendly and seasonable perswasion : his words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. he exhorts him after a handsome manner , as reflecting on the Popes dignity , and clearly shews that the Pope had of right some Authority over the Asian Bishops , and by consequence over the whole Church . For otherwise it had been very absurd in St. Irenaeus to perswade Pope Victor , not to cut off from the Church so many Christian Provinces had he believed ( as Protestant , contends he did ) that the Pope had no power at all to cut them off . Just as if a man should entreat the Bishop of Rochester , not to excommunicate the Archbishop of York and all the Bishops of his Province ; over whom he hath not any the least pretence of Jurisdiction . I Answer , that if you say , that Eusebius hath not a word importing reprehension , it is a sign you have not read what Eusebius saith . For , doth not he expresly say , That the Epistle of some of the Bishops are yet remaining , in which they do severely rebuke him ? Among whom ( saith he ) Irenaeus was one , &c. It seems , Irenaeus was one of those Bishops who did so sharply reprehend him ; but it may be , you would render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kissing his Holiness feet , or , exhorting him after a handsome manner ; and indeed , if they did it sharply , they did it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suitably enough to what Victor deserved for his rash and inconsiderate proceedings in this business . But withall to let you see how well these proceedings of his were resented in the Christian world , Eusebius tells us before , That Victor by his letters did declare those of the Eastern Churches to be excommunicate : and he presently adds , But this did no wayes please all the Bishops ; wherefore ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) they countermanded him , that he might mind the things of peace and unity and brotherly love . And will you still render that word too , by exhorting him after a handsome manner , when even Christopherson renders it by magnoperè adhortabantur , Valesius by ex adverso hortati sunt : and although these seem not to come up to the full emphasis of the word , yet surely they imply somewhat of vehemency and earnestness in their perswading him as well as their being hugely dissatisfied with what Victor did . I grant that these persons did reflect ( as you say ) on the Pope , but not as you would have it on his dignity , but on his rashness and indiscretion , that should go about to cast the Asian Churches out of Communion , for such a trifle as that was in Controversie between them . But you are the happiest man at making inferences that I have met with : for , because Irenaeus in the name of the Gallican Bishops , writes to Victor , not to proceed so rashly in this action thence you infer , that the Pope had of right some Authority over the Asian Bishops , and by consequence over the whole Church . Might you not every jot as well inferr , that when a man in passion is ready : to kill those that stand about him ; whoever perswades him not to do it , doth suppose he might lawfully have done it , if he would . But if those Bishops had so venerable an esteem ( as you would perswade us they had ) then of the Bishop of Rome , How come they to dispute his actions in so high a manner as they did ? If they had looked on him as Vniversal Pastor of the Church , it had more become them to sit still and be quiet , then severely to reprehend him who was alone able to judge what was fit to be done and what not in those cases . If the Pope had call'd them to Council to have known their advise , it might have been their duty to have given it him in the most humble and submissive manner that might be . But for them to intrude themselves into such an office as to advise the Head of the Church what to do in a matter peculiarly concerning him , as though he did not know what was fit to be done himself ; methinks you should not imagine that these men did act 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as became them , in doing it . Could they possibly in any thing more declare , how little they thought it necessary for all Churches to conform to that of Rome , when they plead for dissenters in such a matter which the Pope had absolutely declared himself about ? And how durst any of them slight the thunderbolts which the Pope threatned them with ? Yet not only Polycrates and the Asian Bishops who joyned with him profess themselves not at all affrighted at them ; but the other Churches looked not on themselves as obliged to forsake their communion on that account . If this be such an evidence of the Popes power in one sense , I am sure it is a greater evidence of his weakness in another : It seems the Head of the Church began betimes to be troubled with the fumes of passion ; and it is a little unhappy , that the first Instance of his Authority should meet with so little regard in the Christian world . If the Pope did begin to assume so early , you see it was not very well liked of by the Bishops of other Churches . But it seems he had a mind to try his power and the weight of his Arm ; but for all his haste , he was fain to withdraw it very patiently again . Valesius thinks that he never went so far as to excommunicate the Asian Bishops at all , but the noise of his threatning to do it being heard by them , ( it seems the very preparing of his thunderbolts amazed the world ) Irenaeus having call'd a Synod of the Bishops of Gaul together , doth in their name write that Letter , in Eusebius , to Victor to disswade him from it , and that it wrought so effectually with him , that he gave it over . And this he endeavours to prove . 1. Because Eusebius saith , he only endeavour'd to do it . But Cardinal Perron supposeth Eusebius had a worse meaning then so in it ; i. e. that though the Pope did declare them excommunicate , yet it took no effect because other Bishops continued still in communion with them ; and therefore he calls Eusebius an Arrian and an enemy to the Church of Rome , when yet all the records of this story are derived from him . 2. Because the Epistles of Irenaeus tend to perswade him not to cut them off ; whereas , if they had been excommunicate , it would have been rather to have restored them to Communion ; and that Photius , saith that Irenaeus writ many letters to Victor to prevent their excommunication . But because Eusebius saith expresly , That he did by letters pronounce them out of the Communion of the Church , the common opinion seems more probable , and so Socrates understands it ; but still I am to seek for such an Argument of the acknowledgement of the Popes Authority then , as you would draw from it . Yes , say you , because they do not tell him , He had no Authority to do what he did ; which they would have done if they could without proclaiming themselves Schismaticks ipso facto and shaking the very Foundation of the Churches Discipline and Vnity . But all this proceeds from want of understanding the Discipline of the Church at that time ; for excommunication did not imply any such authoritative act of throwing men out of the Communion of the whole Church , but only a declaring that they would not admit such persons to communion with themselves . And therefore might be done by equals to equals , and sometimes by Inferiours to Superiours . In equals it is apparent by Johannes Antiochenus in the Ephesine Council excommunicating Cyril Patriarch of Alexandria ; and I suppose you will not acknowledge it may be done by Inferiours , if we can produce any examples of Popes being excommunicated ; and what say you then to the African Bishops excommunicating Pope Vigilius as Victor Tununensis an African Bishop himself relates it : Will you say now that Victors excommunicating the Asian Churches argued his authority over them , when another Victor tells us , that the African Bishops solemnly excommunicated the Pope himself ? And I hope you will not deny but the Bishop of Rochester might as well excommunicate the Archbishop of York , as these Africans excommunicate the Bishop of Rome . What say you to the expunging the name of Felix Bishop of Rome out of the Diptychs of the Church , by Acacius the Patriarch of Constantinople ? What say you to Hilary's Anathema against Pope Liberius ? If these excommunications did not argue just power and authority over the persons excommunicated , neither could Pope Victors do it . For it is apparent by the practise of the Church that excommunication argued no such superiority in the persons who did it ; but all the force of it lay in the sense of the Church ; for by whomsoever the sentence was pronounced , if all other Churches observed it , ( as most commonly they did while the Vnity of the Church continued ) then they were out of the Communion of the Catholick Church ; if not , then it was only the particular declaration of those persons or Churches who did it . And in this case the validity of the Popes excommunication of the Asian Bishops depended upon the acceptance of it by other Churches , which most consenting to it , he could not throw them out of the communion of the whole Church , but only declare , that if they came to Rome , he would not admit them to communion with him . And therefore Ruffinus well renders that place in Eusebius out of Irenaeus his Epistle to Victor , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : by these words , Nunquam tamen ob hoc repulsi sunt ab Ecclesiae societate , aut venientes ab illis partibus non sunt suscepti , so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may as well signifie not to receive as to cast out ; for the Churches not receiving , is her casting out . Thus , I hope , it is evident that his Lordship hath received no injury by these lighter skirmishes . We now follow you into hotter service ; For you say , he ventures at last to grapple with the Authority it self , alleadged by A. C. out of St. Irenaeus ; where , in the first place , you wink and strike ; and let your blows fall besides him , for fear he should return them , or some one for him . You quarrel with his translation of the Authority cited by him : but that the ground of this quarrel may be understood ; we must first enquire what his Lordship hath to say for himself . The place of Irenaeus is , To this Church ( he speaks of Rome ) , propter potentiorem principalitatem , for the more powerful Principality of it , 't is necessary that every Church , that is the faithful undique round about , should have recourse . Now for this , ( his Lordship saith ) there was very great reason in Irenaeus his time , that upon any difference arising in the faith , Omnes undique Fideles , all the faithful , or , if you will , all the Churches round about , should have recourse , that is , resort to Rome being the Imperial City , and so a Church of more powerful Principality , then any other at that time in those parts of the world . But this ( his Lordship saith ) will not exalt Rome to be Head of the Church Vniversal . Here your blood rises , and you begin a most furious encounter with his Lordship for translating undique round about , as if ( say you ) St. Irenaeus spake only of those neighbouring Churches round about Rome , and not the Churches throughout the world ; whereas undique as naturally signifies , every where , and , from all parts : witness Thomas Thomasius , where the word undique is thus Englished , From all parts , places , and corners , every where . Can you blame me now if I seek for a retreat into some strong-hold , or if you will , some more powerful Principality when I see so dreadful a Charge begun , with Thomas Thomasius in the Front ? You had routed us once before with Rider , and other English Lexicons ; but it seems Rider had done service enough that time , now that venerable person Thomas Thomasius must be upon duty , and do his share for the Catholick Cause . You somewhere complain how much Catholicks are straitned for want of Books , Would any one believe you that find you so well stored with Thomas Thomasius , Rider , and other English Lexicons ? You would sure give us some cause of suspition that there is some Jesuits School taught in England , and that you are the learned Master of it , by your being so conversant in these worthy Authours . But although the Authority of Th. Thomasius signifie very little with us , yet that of the Greek Lexicons might do much more if we had the original Greek of Irenaeus instead of his barbarous Latin Interpreter . For now it is uncertain what word Irenaeus used , and so it is but a very uncertain conjecture which can be drawn from the signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , unless we knew , which of them was the genuine word in the Greek of Irenaeus . But you say , all of them undeniably signifie , from all parts Vniversally : and that because they are rendred by the word undique . So that this will make an excellent proof , undique must signifie from all parts ; because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie so in Greek ; and that these do undeniably signifie so much , appears because they are rendred by undique . And I grant they are so : for in the old Glossary which goes under the name of Cyril , undique is rendred by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and ●ully ( than whom we cannot possibly desire a better Authour in this case ) renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by undique . For in his Book de Finibus , he translates that of Epicurus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by undique complerentur voluptatibus ; and so he renders that passage in Plato's Timaeus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by undique aequabilem , although as Hen. Stephanus notes , that be rather the signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but still there is some difference between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek Authours notes ex omni parte terrae , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only ex quâvis parte ; so that the one signifies Vniversally , the other indefinitely : undique relating properly to the circumference , as undique aequalis , on all sides it is equal , so that qui sunt undique fideles , are , those which lye upon all quarters round about . And so it doth not imply that all persons were bound to come , but that from all quarters some did come ; as Herodian speaks of Rome , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that it was very populous , and did receive them which came from all parts ; which doth very fitly explain the sense of Irenaeus , that to Rome being the Imperial City , men came from all quarters . But the sense of this will be more fully understood by a parallel expression in the ninth Canon of the Council of Antioch , in which it is decreed that the Metropolitan should have the care of all the Bishops in his Province , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because all persons who have business from all parts , resort to the Metropolis : here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is the very same with the undique convenire , in Irenaeus ; so that it relates not to any Obligation on Churches to resort thither , but that being the Seat of the Empire , all believers from all parts did make their recourse thither . Which is most fully expressed by Leo , speaking of S. Peter's coming to Rome , Cujus nationis homines in hâc Vrbe non essent ? aut quae uspiam gentes ignorarent , quod Roma didicisset ? And so , if I grant you that it extends to all parts , I know not what advantages you will get by it : for Irenaeus his design is , to shew that there was no such secret Tradition left by the Apostles , as the Valentinians pretended . And for this he appeals to the Church of Rome , which being seated in the Imperial City , to which Believers from all parts did resort , it is impossible to conceive that the Apostles should have left such a Tradition , and it not to be heard of there : which is the plain , genuine meaning of Irenaeus his words . Not as you weakly imagine , That all Churches in all doubts of Faith , were bound to have their recourse thither , as to their constant guide therein . For Irenaeus was not disputing , What was to be done by Christians in doubts of Faith ; but was enquiring into a matter of fact , viz. Whether any such Tradition were ever left in the Church , or no ; and therefore nothing could be more pertinent or convincing , than appealing to that Church to which Christians resorted from all parts ; for it could not be conceived , but , if the Apostles had left such a Tradition any where , it would be heard of at Rome . And you most notoriously pervert the meaning of Irenaeus , when you would make the force of his argument to lye in the necessity of all Christians resorting to Rome , because the Doctrine or Tradition of the Roman Church was , as it were , the touchstone of all Apostolical Doctrine . But , I suppose you deal in some English Logicians , as well as English Lexicons , and therefore I must submit both to your Grammar and Logick : but your ingenuity is as great as your reason ; for you first pervert his Lordships meaning , and then make him dispute ridiculously , that you might come out with your triumphant language , Is not this fine Meandrick Logick , well beseeming so noble a Labyrinth ? Whereas his Lordships reasoning is so plain and clear , that none but such a one as had a Labyrinth in his brains , could have imagined any Meanders in it : As appears by what I have said already , in the explication of the meaning of Irenaeus . But that I may see the strength of your Logick out of this place of Irenaeus , I will translate undique and semper , as fully as you would have me , and give you the words at large , in which , by those who come from all places , the Apostolical Tradition is alwaies conserved . What is it you inferr hence ? From the Premises you argue thus : All the faithful every where , must of necessity have recourse to the Church of Rome , by reason of her more powerful principality . This is S. Irenaeus his proposition . But there could be no necessity they all should have recourse to that Church , by reason of her more powerful principality , if her said power extended not to them all . This is evident to reason . Ergo , this more powerful principality of the Roman Church , must needs extend to all the faithful every where , and not only to those of the Suburbicary Churches , or Patriarchal Diocese of Rome , as the Bishop pleads . Now I see , you are a man at arms , and know , not only how to grapple with his Lordship , but with Irenaeus to boot . But we must first see , How Irenaeus himself argues , that we may the better understand the force of what you deduce from him . The Question , as I have told you already , was , Whether the Apostles left any such Tradition in the Church , as the Valentinians pretended : Irenaeus proves they did not , because , if there had been any such , the Apostolical Churches would certainly have preserved the memory of it ; but because it would be too tedious to insist on the succession of all Churches ; he therefore makes choice of the most famous , the Church of Rome , in which the Apostolical Tradition had been derived by a succession of Bishops down to his own time ; and by this ( saith he ) we confound all those who through vain glory , or blindness , do gather any such thing . For ( saith he ) to this Church for the more powerful principality all Churches do make resort , i. e. the believers from all parts , in which by those who come from all parts the Apostolical Tradition is alwaies preserved . We must now see , How Irenaeus argues according to your sense of his words . If all the faithful every where , must of necessity have recourse to the Church of Rome , for her more powerful principality ; then there is no secret Tradition left by the Apostles . But , Where lyes the connexion between these two ? What had the Valentinians to do with the power of the Church of Rome over other Churches ? That was not the business they disputed ; their Question was , Whether there were no such Tradition as they pretended ? And Rome might have never so great power over all Churches , and yet have this secret Tradition too . For now we see , when she pretends to the greatest power , nay , to Infallibility , she pretends the highest to Traditions . Where then lyes the force of Irenaeus his argument ? Was it in this , that the Valentinians did acknowledge the Infallibility of the Church of Rome then , in Traditions ? This were indeed to the purpose , if it could be proved ; Or , Doth Irenaeus go about to prove this first ? But by what argument doth he prove it so , that the Valentinians might be convinced by it ? Yes , say you , he saith , That all the faithful must of necessity have recourse to the Church of Rome ? This is your way of proving indeed , to take things for granted ; but , How doth this necessity appear ? because , say you , she hath the more powerful principality : But , What principality do you mean ? over all Churches ? But that was the thing in Question . So that if you will make Irenaeus speak sense , and argue pertinently , his meaning can be no other than this . If there be such a Tradition left , it must be left somewhere among Christians : if it be left among them , it may be known by enquiry , Whether they own any such or no. But because it would be troublesome searching of all Churches , we may know their judgement more compendiously ; there is the Church of Rome near us , a famous and ancient Church , seated in the chief City of the Empire , to which all persons have necessities to go ; and among them , you cannot but suppose , but that out of every Church some faithful persons should come , and therefore it is very unreasonable to think , that the Apostolical Tradition hath not alwaies been preserved there , when persons come from all places thither . Is not every thing in this account of Irenaeus his words very clear and pertinent to his present dispute ? But in the sense you give of them , they are little to the purpose , and very precarious and inconsequent . And therefore since the more powerful principality is not that of the Church , but of the City ; since the necessity of recourse thither , is not for doubts of Faith , but other occasions : therefore it by no means follows thence , That this Churches power did extend over the faithful every where ; thus by explaining your Proposition , your Conclusion is ashamed of it self , and runs away . For your argument comes to this ; If English men from all parts be forced to resort to London , then London hath the power over all England ; or if one should say , If some from all Churches in England must resort to London , then the Church at London hath power over all the Churches in England ; and if this consequence be good , yours is ; for it is of the same nature of it ; the necessity of the resort , not lying in the Authority of the Church , but in the Dignity of the City , the words in all probability in the Greek , being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so relate to the dignity of Rome , as the Imperial City . From whence we proceed to the Vindication of Ruffinus , in his Translation of the 6. Canon of the Council of Nice . The occasion of which is this . His Lordship saith , Supposing that the powerful principality be ascribed to the Church of Rome , yet it follows not that it should have power over all Churches ; for this power was confined within its own Patriarchate and Jurisdiction ; and that ( saith he ) was very large , containing all the Provinces in the Diocese of Italy ( in the old sense of the word Diocese ) which Provinces the Lawyers and others term Suburbicaries . There were ten of them ; the three Islands , Sicily , Corsica , and Sardinia , and the other seven upon the firm Land of Italy . And this , I take it , is plain in Ruffinus . For he living shortly after the Nicene Council , as he did , and being of Italy , as he was , he might very well know the bounds of the Patriarchs Jurisdiction , as it was then practised . And he sayes expresly , that according to the old custom , the Roman Patriarchs charge was confined within the limits of the Suburbican Churches . To avoid the force of this testimony , Cardinal Perron laies load upon Ruffinus . For he charges him with passion , ignorance , and rashness . And one piece of his ignorance is , that he hath ill translated the Canon of the Council of Nice . Now , although his Lordship doth not approve of it as a Translation ; yet he saith , Ruffinus living in that time and place , was very like well to know and understand the limits and bounds of that Patriarchate of Rome , in which he lived . This ( you say ) is very little to his Lordships advantage , since it is inconsistent with the vote of all Antiquity , and gives S. Irenaeus the lye ; but if the former be no truer than the latter , it may be very much to his advantage , notwithstanding what you have produced to the contrary . What the ground is , Why the Roman Patriarchate was confined within the Roman Diocese , I have already shewed in the precedent Chapter , in explication of the Nicene Canon . We must now therefore examine the Reasons you bring , Why the notion of Suburbicary Churches must be extended beyond the limits his Lordship assigns ; that of the smalness of Jurisdiction compared with other Patriarchs , I have given an account of already , viz. from the correspondency of the Ecclesiastical and Civil Government ; for the Civil Dioceses of the Eastern part of the Empire did extend much farther than the Western did ; and that was the Reason , Why the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria , had a larger Metropolitical Jurisdiction than the Bishop of Rome had . But you tell us , That Suburbicary Churches must be taken as generally signifying all Churches and Cities any waies subordinate to the City of Rome ; which was at that time known by the name of Urbs , or City , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by way of excellency ; not as it related to the Praefect or Governour of Rome , in regard of whose ordinary Jurisdiction , we confess it commanded only those few places about it in Italy ; but as it related to the Emperour himself ; in which sense the word Suburbicary , rightly signifies all Cities or Churches whatsoever within the Roman Empire ; as the word Romania also anciently signified the whole Imperial Territory , as Card. Perron clearly proves upon this subject . But , this is one instance of what mens wits will do , when they are resolved to break through any thing : For , whoever that had read of the Suburbicary Regions and Provinces in the Code of Theodosius , or other parts of the Civil Law , as distinguished from other Provinces under the Roman Empire , and those in Italy too , could ever have imagined that the notion of Suburbicary Churches had been any other than what was correspondent to those Regions and Provinces . But let that be granted which Sirmondus so much contends for , That the notion of Suburbicary may have different respects , and so sometimes be taken for the Churches within the Roman Diocese , sometimes for those within the Roman Patriarchate , and sometimes for those , which are under the Pope as Vniversal Pastor ; yet , How doth it appear that ever Ruffinus took it in any other than the first sense ? No other Provinces being called Suburbicary , but such as were under the Jurisdiction either of the Roman Prefect within a hundred miles of the City ( within which compass , references and appeals were made to him ) or at the most , to the Lieutenant of the Roman Diocese , whose Jurisdiction extended to those ten Provinces which his Lordship mentions . It is not therefore , In what sense words may be taken , but in what sense they were taken , and what Evidence there is that ever they were so understood . Never was any Controversie more ridiculous , than that concerning the extent of the Suburbicary Regions or Provinces , if Suburbicary were taken in your sense for all the Cities within the Roman Empire . But this extending of the Suburbicary Churches , as far as the Roman Empire , is like the art of those Jesuits , who in their setting forth Anastasius de vitis Pontificum , in Stephanus 5. turn'd Papa Vrbis into Papa Orbis : for that being so mean and contemptible a title , they thought much it should remain as it did ; but Papa Orbis was magnificent and glorious . I wonder therefore , that instead of extending the signification of Suburbicary Churches , you do not rather pretend that it ought to be read Suborbicary , and so to suit exactly with the Papa Orbis , as importing all those Churches which are under the power of the Vniversal Pastor . For , Why should you stop at the confines of the Roman Empire ; How comes his Jurisdiction to be confined within that ? By what right did he govern the Churches within the Empire , and not those without ? Surely not , as Primate , Metropolitan , or Patriarch of the Roman Empire , for those are titles yet unheard of in Antiquity ; if as Head of the Church , How comes the Jurisdiction of that to be at all limited ? Were there no Churches without the Empire then ? I hope you will not deny that : If there were , To whom did the Jurisdiction over them belong ? to the Pope , or not ? If not , How comes he to be Head of the Church , and Vniversal Pastor ? If they did , Why were not these Suburbicary Churches , as well as those within the Empire ? Besides , it is confessed by the learnedest among you , that when the notion of Suburbicary is extended beyond the Suburbicary Provinces , it is not out of any relation to the City , but to the power of the Bishop of the City , and therefore the Suburbicary Churches may be larger than the Suburbicary Provinces . But if this be true ( as it is the only probable evasion ) then it is impossible for you , to confine the Suburbicary Churches within the Roman Empire , without confining the Jurisdiction of the Roman Bishop within those bounds too . For if the inlarging the notion of Surburbicary Churches depends upon the extent of his power , the fixing the limits of those Churches , determines the bounds of his power too . Which is utterly destructive to your pretences of the Pope's being Head of the Vniversal Church , and not barely of the Churches within the Roman Empire . But if it had been Ruffinus his design to express by Suburbicary Churches , all those within the Roman Empire , surely he made choice of the most unhappy expression to do it by , which he could well have thought of . For , it being then so well known what the Suburbicary Provinces were , that in the Code of Theodosius , where they are so often mentioned , they are not distinctly enumerated , because they were then as well understood as the African , Gallican , or Britannick Provinces ; How absurd were it for him , to take a word in common use , and so well known , and apply it to such a sense , as no example besides can be produced for it . For if any one at that time should have spoken of the African , Gallican , or Britannick Churches , no one would have imagined any other than those which were contained in the several Provinces under those names . What reason is there then , that any thing else should be apprehended by the Suburbicary Churches ? I know the last refuge of most of your side , instead of explaining these Suburbicary Churches , hath been to rail at Ruffinus , and call him Dunce and Blockhead , and enemy to the Roman Church ( instances were easie to be given , if it were at all necessary ) but besides that , it were easie to make it appear , that Ruffinus was no such fool , as some have taken him for : ( And if they think so , because S. Hierom gives him such hard words , they must think so of all whom S. Hierom opposed ) he is sufficiently vindicated in this translation by the Ancient Vatican Copy of the Nicene Canons , out of which this very Canon is produced by Sirmondus , and the very same word of Suburbicary therein used . And that in such a manner , as utterly destroies your sense of the Suburbicary Churches , for such as are within the Roman Empire ; for that Copy calls them , Loca Suburbicaria ; and , Will you say , those are the Provinces within the Roman Empire too ? Can any one rationally think that any other places should be called Suburbicary , but such as lye about the City ; And by the same interpretation which you here use , you may call all England the Suburbs of London ; because London is the City , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as you speak ; and therefore all the Churches of England must be Suburbicary to London . But if you think this incongruous , you may on the same account judge the other to be so too : It appears then , that the Suburbicary places in the Vatican Copy ( and in that very Ancient Copy which Justellus had , which agrees with the Vatican ) are the same with the Suburbicary Churches in Ruffinus ; and , if you will explain these latter of the Roman Empire , you must do the former too . But not only the Vatican Copy , but all other different Versions of the Nicene Canon utterly overthrow this Opinion of Cardinal Perron , that the Suburbicary Churches must be taken for those within the Roman Empire . For in the Arabick Version published by Turrianus , it is thus rendred , Siquidem similitèr Episcopus Romae , i. e. successor Petri Apostoli , potestatem habet omnium civitatum , & locorum quae sunt circa eam . Are all the Cities and places in the Roman Empire , circa eam , about the City of Rome ? If not , neither can the Churches be ? And in that Arabick paraphrase , which Salmasius had of the famous Peireskius , it is translated much more agreeably to the Nicene Canon in these words ; Propterea quod Episcopus Romanus etiam hunc morem obtinet , & hoc ei adjunctum est , ut potestatem habeat supra civitates , & loca quae prope eam sunt . Which is yet more full , to shew the absurdity of your exposition , for these Suburbicary Churches must be then in places near the City of Rome . And agreeably to these , Aristinus , the Greek Collector of the Canons hath it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which Ruffinus his Suburbicary doth exactly render . By whom now , must we be judged , What is meant by these Suburbicary Churches ? by you who make a forced and strained interpretation of the word Suburbicary to such a sense , of which there is no evidence in Antiquity , or Reason , and is withall manifestly repugnant to the design of the Canon , which is to proportion the Dioceses of the Bishops of Antioch and Alexandrina , by the example of Rome ( which had been very absurd if these Suburbicary Churches did comprehend the Dioceses of Alexandria and Antioch , and all other Provinces , as you make them ) ? or else must we be judged by the ancient Versions of the Nicene Canon , Latin and Arabick , and by other Greek Paraphrases , all which unanimously concurr to overthrow that Figment , that the Suburbicary Churches are all those within the Roman Empire . And this the learned Petrus de Marcâ was so sensible of , that he saith , Ruffinus did rectissimè & ex usu recepto , very agreeably both to reason and custom , compare the Alexandrian and Roman Bishop in this , that he should have the power over the Diocese of Aegypt , by the same right that the Bishop of Rome had over the Vrbicary Diocese ; or , saith he , ut Ruffinus-eligantissime loquitur , In Ecclesiis Suburbicariis , id est , in iis Ecclesiis quae decem Provinciis Suburbicariis continebantur ; as Ruffinus most elegantly speaks ( sure then he thought him no such ignorant person , as Perron and others from him have reproached him to be ) In the Suburbicary Churches , that is , in those Churches which are contained in the ten Suburbicary Provinces . For , as as he goes on , the calling of Synods , the ordination of Bishops , the full administration of the Churches in those Provinces , did belong to the Bishop of Rome ; as to the Bishop of Alexandria in the Aegyptian Diocese , and to the Bishop of Antioch in the Oriental . Which he likewise confirms by the ancient Latin Interpreter of the Nicene Canons , who , he saith , was elder than Dionysius Exiguns ; in whose interpretation , he makes the Suburbicaria loca to contain the four Regions about Rome , which made the proper Metropolitan Province of the Roman Bishop comprehending sixty nine Bishopricks ; and that which he calls his Province , to be the Vrbicary Diocese , contained in those ten Provinces which his Lordship mentions . But the Pope's being Vniversal Bishop having so little evidence elsewhere , his Lordships adversary at last hath recourse to this , That the Bishop of Rome is S. Peter 's successor , and therefore to him we must have recourse . To which his Lordship answers ; The Fathers I deny not , ascribe very much to S. Peter ; but 't is to S. Peter in his own person . And among them Epiphanius is as free and as frequent in extolling S. Peter , as any of them : And yet did he never intend to give an absolute principality to Rome in S. Peter 's right ; which he at large manifests by a place particularly insisted on , in which he proves , that the building of the Church on S. Peter in Epiphanius his sense , is not as if he and his successors were to be Monarchs over it for ever : but it is the edifying and establishing the Church in the true Faith of Christ , by the Confession which S. Peter made . And so , saith he , he expresses himself elsewhere most plainly , that Christ's building his Church upon this Rock , was upon the Confession of S. Peter , and the solid Faith contained therein . And that Epiphanius could not mean that S. Peter was any Rock or Foundation of the Church , so as that he and his successors must be relyed on in all matters of Faith , and govern the Church like Princes and Monarchs , he proves not only by the Context , but because he makes S. James to succeed our Lord in the principality of the Church . And Epiphanius , saith he , was too full of learning and industry , to speak contrary to himself in a point of this moment . This is the summ of his Lordships discourse : to which you answer , That it is clear even by the Texts of Epiphanius , that this promise by Christ to S. Peter , is derived to his successors ; which you prove from hence , because he saith , That by the Gates of Hell , Heresies and Hereticks are understood ; now this , say you , cannot be understood of S. Peter 's person alone ; for then , Why not Heresies and Hereticks prevail against the Church after S. Peter 's death ; yea so far as utterly to extinguish the true Faith ? But , Cannot God preserve the Church from being extinguished by Heresies , though S. Peter hath no Infallible Successor ? Is not the promise , That the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church ? It doth not say , That the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against any that shall pretend to be his Successors at Rome : For if Heresies be those Gates , they have too often prevailed against him . And , Is this your way indeed to secure the Church , by providing S. Peter such successors , which may be Hereticks themselves ? But much more wisely did S. Gregory say , If one pretends to be Vniversal Bishop , then upon his falling , the Church must fall too ; much more wisely the Council of Basil in their Synodal Epistle , object this as the necessary consequent of the Doctrine of the Pope's Supremacy , that , errante Pontifice , quod saepe contigit & contingere potest , tota erraret Ecclesia ; that , in case the Pope erre , which often hath happened , and often may , the whole Church must erre too . And yet this is your way to secure the Church from errours and heresies . If you designed to ruine it , you could not do it in a more compendious way , than to oblige the whole Church to believe the dictates of one , who is so far from that Infallibility which S. Peter had , that he follows him in nothing more than his Falls : I wish he would in his Repentance too , and that would be the best way to secure the Church from Errours and Heresies . Which she can never be secured from , as long as one pretends to be her Head , who may not only erre himself , but propound that to be believed infallibly , which is notoriously false . For that Popes as Popes may erre , and propound false Doctrine to the Church , not only Protestants , but some of your own Communion have abundantly proved ; particularly Sim. Vigorius in his defence of Richerius in his Commentary on the forecited Synodal Epistle of the Council of Basil. And calls that opinion , That the Pope may erre as a private Doctor , but not as Pope , ineptissimam opinionem , a most foolish opinion . For otherwise , as he saith , it would be most absurd to say , That the Pope might be deposed for Heresie ; for he is not deposed as a private Doctor , but as Pope . And this he proves by the contradictious decrees of Adrian 3. to Adrian 1. and Leo 7. and so of Formosus , Martinus , Romanus , to Johannes , Stephanus , and Sergius ; Nay , he instanceth in that famous decree of Boniface 8. in pronouncing so definitively , that it was de necessitate salutis , subesse Romano Pontifici ( necessary to salvation to be subject to the Pope ) and that he decreed this as Pope , appears by those words , Declaramus , dicimus , definimus , & pronunciamus , omnino esse ▪ de necessitate salutis ; than which words , nothing can be more express and definitive , and yet Pope Innocent 3. asserts , that the King of France hath no superiour upon earth . Is not the Church like then to be well secured from Heresies , when her Infallible Heads may so apparently contradict each other , and this acknowledged by men of your own Communion . Nothing then can be more absurd or unreasonable , than to say , That the Church cannot be preserved from being extinguished by Heresie , unless the Pope be S. Peter's successor , as Head of the Church . To his Lordships testimonies out of Epiphanius , that S. James succceded our Lord in the principality of the Church , you answer , 1. That in the places he alledges , there 's not a word of the Churches principality . 2. That he only implies that he was the first of the Apostles made Bishop of any particular place , viz. at Hierusalem , which is called Christs Throne , as any Episcopal Chair is in ancient Ecclesiastical Writers . But , whosoever will examine the places in Epiphanius , will find much more intended by him , than what you will allow : For not only he saith , that he first had an Episcopal Chair , but that our Lord committed to him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his Throne upon Earth , which surely is much more than can be said of any meer Episcopal Chair ; and I believe you will be much to seek where Hierusalem was ever called Christ's Throne upon earth after his Ascension to Heaven . Besides , if it were , it is the strongest prejudice that may be against the principality of the Roman See ; if Jerusalem was made by Christ his Throne here . And , that a principality over the whole Church is intended by Epiphanius , seems more clear by that other place which his Lordship cites , wherein he not only saith , That James was first made Bishop , but gives this reason for it , because he was the Brother of our Lord ; and if you observe , How Epiphanius brings it in , you will say , he intended more by it , than to make him the first Bishop . For he was disputing before , How the Kingdom and the Priesthood did both belong to Christ , and that Christ had transfused both into his Church , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but his Throne is established for ever in his holy Church ; consisting both of his Kingdom and Priesthood , both which he communicated to his Church ; quare Jacobus primus omnium est Episcopus constitutus , as Petavius renders it , so that he seems to settle James in that principality of the Church , which he had given to it ; and what reason can you have to think , but that Christ's Throne , in which Epiphanius , saith James , was settled in the other place , is the same with his Throne in the Church which he mentions here ? And , What would you give for so clear a testimony in Antiquity for Christ's settling S. Peter in his Throne at Rome , as here is for his placing S. James in it at Jerusalem ? His Lordship goes on . And he still tells us , the Bishop of Rome is S. Peter 's successor . Well , suppose that , What then ? What ? Why then , he succeeded in all S. Peter 's prerogatives which are ordinary , and belonged to him as a Bishop , though not in the extraordinary , which belonged to him as an Apostle . For that is it which you all say , but no man proves . Yes , you say , Bellarmine hath done it in his disputations on that subject . For this you produce a saying of his , That when the Apostles were dead , the Apostolical Authority remained alone in S. Peter 's successor . I see with you still , saying and proving are all one . But since you referr the Reader to Bellarmine for ▪ proofs , I shall likewise referr him to the many sufficient Answers which have been given him . You argue stoutly afterwards , That because Primacy in the modern sense of it implies Supremacy , therefore wherever the Fathers attribute a Primacy to Peter among the Apostles , they mean his Authority and power over them . I see , you are resolved to believe that there cannot be one , two , and three ; but the first must be Head over all the rest . A Primacy of Order , his Lordship truly saith , was never denied him by Protestants ; and an Vniversal Supremacy of power was never granted him by the Primitive Christians . Prove but in the first place that S. Peter had such a Supremacy of power over the Apostles , and all Christian Churches , and that this power is conveyed to the Pope , you will do something . In the mean time we acknowledge as much Primacy , Authority , and Principality in S. Peter , as D. Reynolds proves in the place you cite ; none of which come near that Supremacy of power which you contend for , and we must deny till we see it better proved than it is by you . But you offer it from S. Hierom , because he saith , The Primacy was given to Peter for preventing Schism , but a meer precedency of order is not sufficient for that . But , Doth not S. Hierom in the words immediately before , say , That the Church is equally built on all the Apostles , and that they all receive the Keyes of the Kingdom of Heaven , and that the firmness of the Church is equally grounded on them ; and , Can he possibly then mean in the following words any other Primacy , but such as is among equals , and not any Supremacy of power over them ? And certainly you think the Apostles very unruly , who would not be kept in order by such a Primacy as this is , unless a S. Peter's full jurisdiction over them . And since it is so evident , that S. Hierom can mean no other but such a preheminence as this for preventing Schism , you had need have a good art , that can deduce from thence a necessity of a Supremacy of power in the Church for that end . For , say you , Whatsoever power or jurisdiction was necessary in the Apostles time for preventing Schisms , must , à fortiori , be necessary in all succeeding ages ; but still be sure to hold to that power or jurisdiction which was in the Apostles times , and we grant you all you can prove from it . You still dispute gallantly , when you beg the Question , and argue as formally as I have met with one , when you have supposed that which it most concerned you to prove ; Which is , that God hath appointed a Supremacy of power in one particular person , alwaies to continue in the Church for preservation of Faith and Unity in it . For , if you suppose the Church cannot be governed , or Schism prevented without this , you may well save your self a labour of proving any further . But , so far are we from seeing such a Supremacy of power as you challenge to the Pope to be necessary for preventing Schisms , that we are sufficiently convinced that the Vsurping of it hath caused one of the greatest ever was in the Christian world . CHAP. VII . The Popes Authority , not proved from Scripture , or Reason . The insufficiency of the proofs from Scripture acknowledged by Romanists themselves . The impertinency of Luk. 22.32 . to that purpose . No proofs offered for it but the suspected testimonies of Popes in their own cause . That no Infallibility can thence come to the Pope as St. Peters successour , confessed and proved by Vigorius , and Mr. White . The weakness of the evasion of the Popes erring as a private Doctor , but not as Pope , acknowledged by them . John 21.15 . proves nothing towards the Popes Supremacy . How far the Popes Authority is owned by the Romanists over Kings . T. C's . beggings of the Question , and tedious repetitions , past over . The Argument from the necessity of a living Judge , considered . The Government of the Church not Monarchical , but Aristocratical . The inconveniencies of Monarchical Government in the Church manifested from reason . No evidence that Christ intended to institute such Government in his Church , but much against it . The Communicatory letters in the primitive Church argued an Aristocracy . Gersons Testimony from his Book de Auferibilitate Papae , explained and vindicated . St. Hieromes Testimony full against a Monarchy in the Church . The inconsistency of the Popes Monarchy with that of Temporal Princes . The Supremacy of Princes in Ecclesiastical matters , asserted by the Scripture and Antiquity , as well as the Church of England . WE are now come to the places of Scripture insisted on for the proof of the Popes Authority ; which you have been so often and successfully beaten out of , by so many powerful assaults of our Writers , that it is matter of admiration that you should yet think to find any shelter there . For those which you yet account Fortresses and Bulwarks for your cause , have not only been triumphed over by your Adversaries , but have been slighted by the wisest of your party , and deserted as most untenable places . As I shall make it appear to you in the progress of this dispute : In which I shall not barely shew the palpable weakness of your pretended proofs , but bring unanswerable arguments against them from persons of your own Communion . For the force of that reason by which the Protestants have prevailed over you in this dispute hath been so great , that it hath brought over some of the learnedst of your party , not only to an acknowledgement of the insufficiency of these proofs , but to a zealous opposition against that very Doctrine which you attempt to prove by them . But such is the fate of a sinking cause , that it catcheth hold of any thing to save it self , though it be the Anchor of the ship which makes it sink the sooner . Thus it will appear to be in these baffled Proofs , which you only bring into the Field to shew what streights you are in for help ; and no sooner appear there , but they fall off to the conquering side , and help only to promote your ruine . But since they are in the place where Arguments should be , we must in civility consider them , as if they were so . The first place then is , Luke 22.32 . I have pray'd for thee that thy faith fail not . What would a Philosopher think , were he chosen as Vmpire between us , ( as once one was between Origen and his Adversaries ) to hear this place produced to prove the Popes Authority and Infallibility ? And when a reason is demanded of so strange an Inference ( from a promise of recovery to St. Peter , to an impossibility of falling in the Pope ) nothing else produced , but the forged Epistles of some Popes , and the partial Testimonies of others in their own cause ? Could he think otherwise , but that these men loved their cause dearly , and would fain prove it , if they could tell how : but since there was neither evidence in reason or more indifferent writers in it , yet to let them see how confident they were of the Popes Infallibility , they would produce their Infallible Testimonies , to prove they were Infallible . For we ask , What evidence is there that the priviledge obtained for St. Peter , whatever it is , must descend to his Successours ; if to his Successours , whether to all his Successours , or only to some ; if only to some , why to those at Rome more then at Antioch or any other place ; if to them at Rome , why it must be understood of a Doctrinal and not a saving Faith , as it was in St. Peter ; if of Doctrinal , why not absolutely , but only conditionally , if they teach the Church ? For all these and several other enquiries of this nature , we are told , It must be so understood ; but if you ask Why , all the Answer we can get is , Because seven Popes at one time or other said so . But at this you grow very angry ; and tell us , 1. That Bellarmine , besides these , gives several pregnant reasons from the Text it self . What were it worth , to have a sight of them ? If you had thought them so pregnant you are not so sparing of taking out of Bellarmine , but you would have given them us over again . Bellarmins excellent proofs are two or three sine Dubio's . Sine dubio , saith he , hic Dominus speciale aliquid Petro impetravit . And who denies it ? but we grant , it was so special to him that it never came to his Successours ; and again , Sine dubio , ipsis praecipuè debeat esse nota suae sedis auctoritas , speaking of the Popes Testimonies for themselves , Without all doubt they knew best their own Authority . They were wonderfully to blame else ; but all the difficulty is , to perswade others to believe them sine dubio , when they speak in their own Cause . And for that I can find no pregnant reason in him at all . Well , but we have a third sine dubio yet , which may be more to the purpose than either of the other two . For Bellarmin distinguishes of two priviledges which Christ obtained for St. Peter , the first is , That himself should never lose the true Faith though he were tempted of the Devil ; and this his Lordship grants , that it was the special grace which Christs prayer obtained , that , notwithstanding Satans sifting him , and his threefold denyal of his Master , he should not fall into a final Apostacy : The second priviledge is , That he , as Bishop , should not be able to teach any thing against the Faith , sive , ut in sede ejus nunquam inveniretur qui doceret contra veram fidem , or , that there should be none found in his See who should do it . Is not here an excellent conjunction disjunctive in this Sive , Or ? that he should not do it himself , or , that his Successours should not do it ? Doth not this want pregnant proofs ? and we have them in the next words . The first of these , it may be ( very modestly ! ) did not descend to his Successours ; but secundum , sine Dubio , manavit ad posteros sive successores ; the second , without all doubt , did descend to his Successours . Are not these pregnant reasons ; three sine dubio's given us by Cardinal Bellarmin ? For when he comes to confirm this last sine dubio , he produces nothing but those Testimonies , which his Lordship excepts against , as not fit to be Judges in their own Cause . If these then be Bellarmins pregnant reasons out of the Text , no wonder that his Lordship was not pleased to Answer them . But yet you are displeased , that his Lordship should think that Popes were interessed persons in their own Cause . No , no ; all that ever sat in that See , were such holy , meek , humble , self-denying men , that they would not for a world , let a word fall to exalt their own Authority in the Church . And we are mightily to blame to think otherwise of them . Is it possible to think that Felix 1 , and Lucius 1 , should speak for their own interest ; though the Epistles under their names be such notorious counterfeits , that all sober men among you are ashamed of them ? Is it possible that Leo 1. should do it , who was so humble a man that he contended with 630. Bishops of the Council of Chalcedon about the Primacy of his See ; and whose Epistles breathe so much of self-denyal in all the contests he had about it ? And although Pope Agatho and the rest be of later standing , when the Popes did begin a little more openly to take upon them ; yet , Can the Protestants think that these men were byassed with their proper Interest ? Are not these weak pretences for them to reject their Authority upon ? For your part ( you say ) , you could never understand this proceeding of Protestants . The more a great deal is the pitty ; and if we could help your understanding and not endanger our own , we would willingly do it . Well , but though Bellarmins pregnant reasons prove so abortive , and though the Popes Authorities should not be taken , yet his Lordship must needs wrong Bellarmin , in saying , That he doth upon the matter confess , that there is not one Father in the Church disinteressed in the Cause , who understands this Text as Bellarmin doth , before Theophylact. And the reason is , because , though Bellarmin cite no more , yet there might be more for all that : for , must he needs confcss , there are no more Authours citable in any subject , but what he cites himself ? As though Bellarmin were wont to leave out any authorities which made for his purpose , especially in so weighty a subject as this ? Do you think he was so weak a person to run to Popes Authorities , if he could have found any other ? and when he produces no more , is it not a plain confession he found no more to his purpose ? But I am weary of such great Impertinencies : and would fain meet with some thing of matter that might hold up the Readers patience as well as mine . All that ever I can meet with , that hath any thing of tendency that way , is , That this priviledge of the Indeficiency of St. Peters Faith doth not belong to him as an Apostle , but rather as he was Prince of the Apostles , and appointed to be Christs Vicar on earth after him . Very handsomely begg'd again ! but where is the proof for all this ? Have you no Popes stand ready again to attest the truth of it ? For none else that have any reason would ever say it ? did St. Peter deny Christ as Prince of the Apostles ? Indeed it was then much for his honour that the Captain should fly from his colours first ? and Christs Vicar upon earth should the most need to have his Faith pray'd for , that it should not fail ? I had thought St. Peter had been head of the Apostles , and not Simon : if Christ had spoke to him as his Vicar , he would sure have call'd him Peter , Peter , and not Simon , Simon . But it seems he did not attend , that Peter was the Rock , on which his Church must be built : or else he minded it so much , that he thought that name improper when he mentions his falling ; You have therefore stoutly and unanswerably ( not proved , but ) demonstrated that these words were spoken of St. Peter , not as an Apostle , but as Christs Vicar upon earth . But suppose it were so ; what is this to those who pretend to be his Successours ? Yes very much . For ( say you ) , Whatever our Saviour intended should descend by vertue of that prayer of his , did effectively so descend . You might have put one of Bellarmins sine dubio's to this . For , Whoever was so sensless as to question that ? But you confess , It is a very disputable question , Whether every thing which Christ by his prayer intended and obtained for St. Peter , was likewise intended by him to descend to St. Peters Successours . Yet that some special priviledge was to descend to them , is , you say , manifest by Bellarmins Authorities and Reasons . If from nothing else , I dare confidently say , no man in his wits will believe it manifest . And what that is , neither you , nor any one else can either prove or understand . Yes ( say you ) it is , that none of his Successours should ever so farr fall from the Faith , as to teach Heresie , in Pontificalibus , or , as you speak with Bellarmine , any thing contrary to Faith tanquam Pontifex ; i. e. in vertue of that Authority which they were to have in the Church as St. Peters Successours . Here then we fix a while to see this proved ; but our expectation is again frustrated : For instead of proofs we meet with the old Mumpsimus , of the Popes erring as private Doctor , but not as Pastour of the Church : A distinction so ridiculous , that many among your selves deride it , as will appear presently . And therefore put in your tanquam Pontifex as long as you please , you will gain no great matter by it . When you can prove that Christ did intend in that one prayer , some part of the Gift personally and absolutely to St. Peter , and another part conditionally to his Successours , I will grant it no absurdity to say , that perhaps some part of the Gift did not belong to either of them . But these are such strange fetches out of a plain Scripture , that those may admire your subtilty , who cannot be convinced by your reason . Yet to let you see that these things are not so clear as you would have them , I shall bring you some Arguments out of your own Writers against your interpretation of this place , and I pray Answer them at your leasure . Vigorius therefore proves that this place cannot be understood of St. Peter and his Successours , that their Faith should not fail ; for then saith he . 1. The Canons had decreed to no purpose that a Pope might be deposed in case of Heresie ; for those that suppose that he may fall into Heresie , do doubtless suppose that his Faith fails . Now here is a witness against you , from your own Church and that out of your Canons too ; and that is better worth then twenty Testimonies of Popes for you . 2. If this were understood of St. Peters Successours , they who succeeded him at Antioch would enjoy this priviledge as well as those at Rome ; for they are , saith he , as well St. Peters Successours as the other . And , saith he , if they understand this of one and not of the other totis faucibus se deridendos propinarent , they expose themselves to contempt and laughter . 3. If this were true of St. Peters Successours at Rome , then the decrees of one Pope could not be revoked by the other ; because , it is impossible they should erre in making those decrees . But it is not Vigorius alone who hath shewed the weakness of your Arguments from this place ; for our learned Countryman Mr. White hath more fully and largely discovered the weakness of all your pretences from Scripture , Fathers , and Reason , concerning the Popes succeeding St. Peter in his Infallibility . And particularly as to this place he saith , that either it concerns the present danger St. Peter was in , or else doth represent what was to be afterwards in the Church : and that it doth primarily and directly relate to St. Peters imminent tentation , all the circumstances perswade us ; first , because he is called by his private name Simon , and not by his Apostolical name Peter . 2. Because Christ immediately subjoyns after St. Peters answer his threefold denyal of him . 3. The event it self makes it appear , by the Apostles flight , St. Peters temptation and fall , his conversion and tears when Christ looked on him ; and by his confirming the Disciples after Christs resurrection . But ( saith he ) , if this place be taken as respecting the future times of the Church , the same thing must be expected in St. Peters Successours , which fell out in St. Peter himself , viz. that either through fear , or some other motive they may be drawn into the shew of Heresie , or into Heresie it self ; but so , as either in themselves or their Successours , they should be restored to the Catholick Faith. But what reason there is for this latter interpretation ( though destructive to the Popes infallibility ) neither doth that person acquaint us , nor can I possibly understand . All the evasion that you have to avoid the force of what ever is brought against you out of this place , is by conjuring up that rare distinction of the Popes not erring when he defines any thing as matter of Faith. But see what that same person saith of this distinction of yours , Excipiunt aliqui , saith he , Papam posse esse haereticum , sed non posse haeresim promulgare . Adeò quidlibot effutire pro libidine , etiam licitum est . Some Answer , that the Pope may be a Heretick , but cannot promulge or define Heresie : So far do men think it lawful to say what they please . But can any man , saith he , be guilty of so much incogitancy , as not to see that these things are consequent upon each other ; It is a Pear tree , and therefore it will bear Pears : It is a Vine , and therefore it will bring forth Grapes . Christ saith , An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit ; but these say , an evil tree cannot bring forth bad fruit . The Apostle saith , the wisdom of the Flesh cannot be subject to God ; but these say , it cannot but be subject to God. And then he further presseth , That they would declare from what Authour they brought this contradiction into the Church of God , lest men should believe they were inspired by the Father of lyes when they made it . Nay he goes further yet in these stinging expressions , An putatis licere , in re quae totum Ecclesiae statum a●vivum tangit , novitatem adeò inauditam , adeò rationi adversantem , adeò excedentem omnem fidem , ex somniis cerebri vestri inferre ? Do you think it lawful , in a matter which toucheth the whole state of the Church to the quick , to produce so unheard of a novelty , so repugnant to reason , so far above all Faith , out of the dreams of your own brain ? Go now , and answer these things among your selves ; complain not that we account such evasions silly , absurd , and ridiculous ; you see they are accounted so by some of your own Communion ( or , at least , who pretend to be so ) and those no contemptible persons neither . But such as have seen so much of the weakness and absurdity of your common doctrine , that they openly and confidently oppose it , and that upon the same grounds that Protestants had done it before them . And I hope , this is much more to our purpose to shew the insufficiency of these proofs , than it was for you to produce the Testimonies of several Popes in their own Cause . Which was all the proof that Bellarmin or you had , that these words are extended to St. Peters Successours , when we bring men from among your selves , who produce several reasons , that they ought not to be so interpreted . But yet there is another place as pertinent as the former ; the celebrated Pasce oves & agnos , John 21.15 , 16 , 17. But sheep and Lambs , say you , are Christs whole flock . So there are both these , saith his Lordship , in every flock that is not of barren Weathers ; and every Apostle , and every Apostles successour hath charge to feed both sheep and Lambs ; that is weaker and stronger Christians , not people and Pastours , subjects and Governours , as A. C. expounds it , to bring the necks of Princes under the Roman Pride . No ( say you ) , no such charge is given to any other Apostles , in the places his Lordship cites , Matth. 28.19 . Matth. 10.17 . for these speak of persons unbaptized , but that place of St. John , of those who were actually Christs Flock ; and the words being absolutely and indefinitely pronounced , must be understood generally and indefinitely of all Christs sheep and Lambs , that is , of all Christians whatsoever , not excepting the Apostles themselves ; unless it appear from some other place , that the other Apostles had the feeding of all Christs sheep , as universally and unlimitedly committed to them , as they were here to St. Peter . But all this is nothing , as Vigorius speaks about the solvere , ligare , pascere , but dudum explosis cantilenis aures Christianorum obtundere , to bring us those things over and over , which have been answered as oft as they have been brought . For how often have you been told , that these words contain no particular Commission to St. Peter , but a more vehement exhortation to the discharge of his duty , and that pressed with the quickness of the question before it , Lovest thou me ? How often , that the full Commission to the Apostles was given before ? As the Father hath sent me , so send I you . And that , as Christ was by his Fathers appointment the chief Shepheard of the Sheep and Lambs too ; so Christ by this equal Commission to all the Apostles gives them all an equal power and authority to govern his Flock : How often , that nothing appears consequent upon this , whereby St. Peter took this office upon him ? but that afterwards we find St. Peter call'd the Apostle of the Circumcision , which certainly he would never have been , had he been looked on as the Vniversal Pastour of the Church ; we find the Apostles sending St. Peter to Samaria , which was a very unmannerly action , if they looked on him as Head of the Church . How often , that these indefinite expressions are not exclusive of the Pastoral charge of other Apostles over the Flock of Christ ? when they are not only bid to preach the Gospel to every creature , but even those Bishops which they ordained in several Churches are charged to feed the Flock ; and therefore certainly the Apostles themselves had not only a charge to preach to unbaptized persons ( as you suppose ) but to govern the Flock of those who were actually Christs Sheep and Lambs , as well as St. Peter ? How often , I say , have you been told all these and several other things in Answer to this place ; and have you yet the confidence to object it , as though it had never been taken notice of , without ever offering to take off those Answers which have been so frequently given ? But you must be pardoned in this , as in all other things of an equal impossibility . Well , but his Lordship objects a shrewd Consequence from this Universal Pastourship ; that this brings the necks of Princes under the Roman Pride . And if Kings be meant , ( his Lordship saith ) yet the command is , pasce , feed them ; but deponere , or occidere , to depose or kill them , is not pascere in any sense ; Lanii id est , non Pastoris , that 's the Butchers , not the Shepheards part . This , you call , his Lordships winding about , and falling upon that odious Question of killing and deposing Kings . An odious Question indeed , whether we consider the grounds , or the effects and consequents of it . But yet you would seem to clear your selves from the odium of it . First , By saying that it is a gross fallacy , to argue a negatione speciei ad negationem generis , which is a new kind of Logick . It is indeed , for it is of your own coyning ; for his Lordship argues ab affirmatione generis ad affirmationem speciei , and I hope this is no new Logick , unless you think he that saith , He hath power over all living creatures , hath not thereby power over men too . His Lordship therefore doth not argue against the Popes Vniversal Supremacy from the denyal of that , but deduces that as a consequence from your assertion , and explication of what you mean by Sheep and Lambs . But this is but a sleight Answer in comparison of what follows ; Secondly , we answer , That the point of Killing Kings , is a most false and scandalous Imputation ; scandalous enough indeed , if false : and though your Popes have not given express warrant for the doing it , yet it is sufficiently known , How the Pope in Consistory could not contain his joy when it was done , in the case of Henry 3. of France . And it hath been sufficiently confessed and lamented by persons of your own communion , How much the Doctrine of the Jesuits hath encouraged those Assassinations of those two successive Henryes of France . Will you , or dare you vindicate the Doctrines of Mariana , and others , which do not obscurely deliver their judgement , as to that very thing of Killing Haeretical Princes ? But , if we should grant you this , That the Pope may not command to kill , What say you to that of deposing Princes ; which seldome falls much short of the other ? As to this , you dare not cry , It is a false and scandalous imputation , as you did to the other ; but you answer , 'T is no point of your Faith , that the Pope hath power to do it ; and therefore you say it is no part of your task to dispute it . Is this all the security Princes have from you , that it is no point of your Faith , that the Pope hath power to do it ? Is it not well enough known , that there are many things which are held undoubtedly by the greatest part of your Church , which yet you say , are no points of Faith ? And yet in this you are directly contradicted by one who knew what were points of Faith among you , as well as you , and that was Father Creswell ; whose testimony I have cited already ; and he saith expresly , Certum est , & de fide , It is a thing certain , and of Faith : that the subjects of an Haeretical Prince , are not only freed from Allegiance , but are bound , ex hominum Christianorum dominatu ejicere , to cast him out of his power , which certainly is more than the deposing of him . And Sanders plainly enough saith , That a King that will not submit to the Popes Authority , is by no means to be suffered , but his subjects ought to do their utmost endeavour that another may be placed in his room . Indeed , he saith not , as the other doth , That this is de fide , but that is the only reserve you have when a Doctrine is odious and infamous to the world , to cry out , It is not de side , when yet it may be as firmly believed among you , as any that you account de fide . And if you believe the Duke of Alva in his Manifesto at the siege of Pampelona , when the Pope had deposed the King of Navarre to whom that City belonged , he saith , That it is not doubted but the Pope had power to depose Heretical Princes . And if you had been of another opinion , you ought to have declared your self more fully than you do . If you had said , that indeed some were of that opinion , but you abhorred and detested it , you had spoken to the purpose ; but when you use only that pitiful evasion , That it is not of Faith , &c. you sufficiently shew , What your judgement is , but that you dare not publickly own it . It seems , you remember what was said by your Masters in reference to Emanuel Sà , Non fuit opus ad ista descendere , There was no need to meddle with those things . It seems , if there had been , there was no hurt in the Doctrine , but only that it was unseasonable . I pray God keep us from that time , when you shall think it needful to declare your selves in this point . But you conclude this with a most unworthy and scandalous reflection on Protestants , in these words ; But what Protestants have both done and justified in the worst of these kinds , is but too fresh in memory . But , Were those the practices and principles of Protestants ? Were they not abhorred and detested in the highest manner by all true Protestants , both at home and abroad ? It will be well , if you can clear some of your selves from having too much a hand in promoting both those principles and practices . I suppose you cannot but have heard , Who it was is said to have expressed so much joy at the time of that horrid execution ; What counsels and machinations are said to have been among some devoted Sons of the Church of Rome abroad about that time : Therefore clear your selves more than yet you have done , of those imputations , before you charge that guilt on Protestants , which they express the highest abhorrence of . And let the names of such who either publickly or privately abett or justifie such horrid actions be under a continual Anathema to all Generations . After all this discourse about the Popes Authority , A. C. brings it at last home to the business of Schism . For , he saith , The Bishop of Rome shall never refuse to feed and govern the whole Flock in such sort , as that neither particular man nor Church shall have just cause , under pretence of Reformation in manners of Faith , to make a separation from the whole Church . This ( his Lordship saith ) by A. C 's favour , is meer begging the Question . For this is the very thing which the Protestants charge upon him ; namely , that he hath governed , if not the whole , yet so much of the Church as he hath been able to bring under his power , so as that he hath given too just cause of the present continued Separation . And , as the corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith , in the Church of Rome , were the cause of the first Separation ; so are they at this present day the cause why the Separation continues . And the oppression of the Church of Rome , he further adds , is the great cause of all the errours in that part of the Church which is under the Roman Jurisdiction . And for the Protestants , they have made no separation from the General Church properly so called , but their Separation is only from the Church of Rome , and such other Churches as by adhering to her , have hazarded themselves , and do now miscall themselves the whole Catholick Church . Nay , even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her essence , but in her errours ; not in the things which constitute a Church , but only in such abuses and corruptions , as work towards the dissolution of a Church . Let now any indifferent Reader be judge , Whether his Lordship , or A. C. be the more guilty in begging the Question . For all the Answer you can give , is , That his Lordship begs it , in saying that the Roman Church is not the whole Catholick Church , and that the Roman Catholick Church may be in an errour ; but the former we have proved already , and I doubt not but the latter will be as evident as the other , before our task be ended . But , as though it were not possible for you to be guilty of begging the Question , after you have said that the Roman Church cannot erre , you give this as the reason for it , Because she is the unshaken Rock of Truth ; and that she hath the sole continual succession of lawfully-sent Pastors and Teachers , who have taught the same unchanged Doctrine , and shall infallibly continue so teaching it to the worlds end . Now , Who dares call this , Begging the Question ? No , it must not be called so in you , it shall be only Taking it for granted . Which we have seen , hath been your practice all along , especially when we charge your Church with errour● ; for then you cry out presently , What , your Church erre ? No , you defie the language . What , the Spouse of Christ , the Catholick Church erre ? that is impossible . What , the unshaken Rock of Truth to sink into errours ? the Infallible Church be deceived ? she that hath never taught any thing but Truth , be charged with falshood ? she , that not only never did erre , but , it is impossible , nay , utterly impossible , nay , so impossible , that it cannot be imagined , that ever she should erre ? This is the summ of all your arguments , which , no doubt , sound high to all such who know not what confident begging the Question means , or , out of modesty , are loath to charge you with it . Much to the same purpose do you go on , to prove , that Protestants have separated not from the errours , but the essence of your Church . And if that be true , which you say , That those things which we call Errours are essential to your Church , we are the more sorry for it ; for we are sure , ( and , when you please , will prove it ) that they are not , cannot be , essential to a true Church ; and if they be to yours , the case is so much the worse with you , when your distempers are in your vitals , and your errours essential to your Churches Constitution . What other things you have here , are the bare repetitions of what we have often had before in the Chapters you refer us to . And here we may thank you for some ease you give us in the far greatest remaining part of this Chapter , which consists of tedious repetitions of such things which have been largely discussed in the First part , where they were purposely and designedly handled ; as that concerning Traditions , chap. 6. that concerning necessaries to salvation , chap. 2 , 3 , 4. that concerning the Scriptures being an Infallible Rule , throughout the Controversie of Resolution of Faith ; and that which concerns the Infallibility of General Councils , we shall have occasion at large to handle afterwards ; and if there be any thing material here , which you omit there , it shall be fully considered . But I know no obligation lying upon me to answer things as often as you repeat them , especially since your gift is so good that way . It is sufficient that I know not of any material passage , which hath not received an Answer in its proper place . That which is most pertinent to our present purpose , is that which concerns the necessity of a Living Judge , besides the Scriptures for ending Controversies of Faith. As to which his Lordship saith , That , supposing there were such a one , and the Pope were he , yet that is not sufficient against the malice of the Devil , and impious men , to keep the Church at all times from renting even in the Doctrine of Faith , or to soder the Rents which are made . For , oportet esse Haereses , 1 Cor. 11.19 , Heresies there will be , and Heresies there properly cannot be but in the Doctrine of Faith. To this you answer , That Heresies are not within , but without the Church , and the Rents which stand in need of sodering , are not found among the true members of the Church , who continue still united in the Faith , and due obedience to their Head ; but in those who have deserted the true Church , and either made or adhered to Schismatical and Heretical Congregations . A most excellent Answer ! His Lordship sayes , If Christ had appointed an Infallible Judge besides the Scripture , certainly it should have been for preventing Heresies , and sodering the Rents of the Church . So it is ( say you ) for if there be any Heresies , it is nothing to him , they are out of the Church ; and if there be any Schisms , they are among those who are divided from him : That is , he is an Infallible Judge only thus far , in condemning all such for Hereticks and Schismaticks , who do not own him . And his only way of preventing Heresies and Schisms , is the making this the only tryal of them , that whatever questions his Authority , is Heresie ; and whatever separation be made from him , is Schism . Just as Absalom pretended that there was no Judge appointed to hear and determine causes , and that the Laws were not sufficient without one , and therefore he would do it himself ; so doth the Pope by Christ , he pretends that he hath not taken care sufficient for deciding Controversies in Faith , therefore there is a necessity in order to the Churches Vnity , he should take it upon himself . But now , if we suppose in the former case of Absalom , that he had pretended he could infallibly end all the Controversies in Israel , and keep all in peace and unity ; and yet abundance of Controversies to arise among them by what right and power he took that office upon him , and many of them cry out upon it , as an Vsurpation , and a disparagement to the Laws and Government of his Father David ; and upon this , some of the wiser Israelites should have asked him , Whether this were the way to end all Controversies , and keep the Nation in peace ? Would it not have been a satisfactory Answer for him to have said , Yes , no doubt it is the only way ; For , only they that acknowledge my power , are the Kings lawful subjects , and all the rest are Rebels and Traytors . And , Is not this just the same Answer which you give here ? That the Pope is still appointed to keep peace and unity in the Church , because all that question his Authority , be Hereticks and Schismaticks . But , as in the former case , the surest way to prevent those Consequences , were to produce that power and authority which the King had given him , and that should be the first thing which should be made evident from authentick records , and the clear testimony of the gravest Senatours ; so , if you could produce the Letters Pattents , whereby Christ made the Pope the great Lord Chancellour of his Church , to determine all Controversies of Faith , and shew this attested by the concurrent voice of the Primitive Church , who best knew what order Christ took for the Government of his Church ; this were a way to prevent such persons turning such Hereticks and Schismaticks , as you say they are , by not submitting themselves to the Popes Authority . But for you to pretend that the Popes Authority is necessary to the Churches Vnity , and when the Heresies and Schisms of the Church are objected , to say , That those are all out of the Church , is just as if a Shepherd should say , That he would keep the whole Flock of sheep within such a Fold , and when the better half are shewed him to be out of it , he should return this Answer , That those were without , and not within his Fold ; and therefore they were none of the Flock that he meant . So that his meaning was , those that would abide in , he could keep in , but for those that would not , he had nothing to say to them . So it is with you , the Pope he ends Controversies , and keeps the Church at Vnity ; How so ? They who do agree , are of his Flock , and of the Church ; and those that do not , are out of it . A Quaker or Anabaptist will keep the Church in Vnity after the same way , only the Pope hath the greater number of his side ; for , they will tell you , If they were hearkned to , the Church should never be in pieces ; for all those who embrace their Doctrines , are of the Church , and those who do not , are Hereticks and Schismaticks . So we see upon your principles , What an easie matter it is to be an Infallible Judge , and to end all Controversies in the Church ; that only this must be taken for granted , that all who will not own such an infallible Judge , are out of the Church , and so the Church is at Vnity still , how many soever there are who doubt or deny the Popes Authority . Thus we easily understand what that excellent harmony is , which you cry so much up in your Church ; that you most gravely say , That , had not the Pope received from God the power he challenges , he could never have been able to preserve that peace and unity in matters of Religion , that is found in the Roman Church : Of what nature that Unity is , we have seen already : And surely you have much cause to boast of the Popes faculty of deciding Controversies , ever since the late Decree of Pope Innocent , in the case of the five Propositions . For , How readily the Jansenists have submitted since , and what Unity there hath been among the dissenting parties in France , all the world can bear you witness . And , whatever you pretend , were it not for Policy and Interest , the Infallible Chair would soon fall to the ground ; for it hath so little footing in Scripture or Antiquity , that there had need be a watchful eye , and strong hand to keep it up . But now we are to examine the main proof which is brought for the necessity of this Living and Infallible Judge ; which lyes in these words of A.C. Every earthly Kingdom , when matters cannot be composed by a Parliament ( which cannot be called upon all occasions ) hath , besides the Law-Books , some living Magistrates and Judges , and above all one visible King , the highest Judge , who hath Authority sufficient to end all Controversies , and settle Vnity in all Temporal Affairs . And , Shall we think that Christ , the wisest King , hath provided in his Kingdom the Church , only the Law-Books of holy Scripture , and no living visible Judges , and above all one chief , so assisted by his Spirit , as may suffice to end all Controversies for Vnity and Certainty of Faith ? which can never be , if every man may interpret Holy Scripture , the Law-Books , as he list . This his Lordship saith , is a very plausible argument with the many ; but the Foundation of it is but a similitude , and , if the similitude hold not in the main argument , is nothing . And so his Lordship at large proves that it is here . For whatever further concerns this Controversie concerning the Popes Authority , is brought under the examination of this argument ; which you mangle into several Chapters , thereby confounding the Reader , that he may not see the coherence or dependence of one thing upon another . But having cut off the superfluities of this Chapter already , I may with more conveniency reduce all that belongs to this matter within the compass of it . And that he may the better apprehend his Lordships scope and design . I shall first summ up his Lordships Answers together , and then more particularly go about the vindication of them . 1. Then , his Lordship at large proves that the Militant Church is not properly a Monarchy , and therefore the foundation of the similitude is destroyed . 2. That supposing it a Kingdom , yet the Church Militant is spread in many earthly Kingdoms , and cannot well be ordered like one particular Kingdom . 3. That the Church of England under one Supreme Governour , our Gracious Soveraign , hath , besides the Law-Book of the Scripture , visible Magistrates and Judges , Arch-Bishops and Bishops to govern the Church in Truth and Peace . 4. That as in particular Kingdoms there are some affairs of greatest Consequence as concerning the Statute Laws , which cannot be determined but in Parliament ; so in the Church , the making such Canons which must bind all Christians , must belong to a free and lawful General Council . Thus I have laid together the substance of his Lordships Answer , that the dependence and connexion of things may be better perceived by the intelligent Reader . We come now therefore to the first Answer . As to which his Lordship saith , It is not certain that the whole Church Militant is a Kingdom ; for they are no mean ones which think , our Saviour Christ left the Church-Militant in the hands of the Apostles , and their Successours , in an Aristocratical , or rather a mixt Government ; and that the Church is not Monarchical , otherwise than the Triumphant and Militant make one body under Christ the Head. And in this sense indeed , and in this only the Church is a most absolute Kingdom . And the very expressing of this sense , is a full Answer to all the places of Scripture , and other arguments brought by Bellarmine to prove that the Church is a Monarchy . But the Church being as large as the world , Christ thought fittest to govern it Aristocratically , by divers , rather than by one Vice-Roy . And I believe , saith he , this is true . For so it was governed for the first three hundred years , and somewhat better ; the Bishops of those times carrying the whole business of admitting any new consecrated Bishops or others to , or rejecting them from , their Communion . And this , his Lordship saith , He hath carefully examined for the first six hundred years even to , and within , the time of S. Gregory the Great . Now to this you answer . 1. That though A. C. urgeth the argument in a similitude of a Kingdom only , yet it is of force in any other kind of settled Government , as in a Common-wealth . But by this A. C. seems a great deal the wiser man , for he knew what he did when he instanced in in a Kingdom ; for he foresaw that this only would tend to his purpose concerning the Popes Supremacy ; but though there be the same necessity of some Supreme Power in a Common-wealth , yet that would do him no good at all , for all that could be inferred thence , would be the necessity of a General Council . And by this you may see , How little your similitude will hold any other way than A.C. put it . Therefore , 2. You answer , That the Government of the Church is not a pure , but a mixt Monarchy , i. e. the Supream Government of the Church is clearly Monarchical , you confess : yet Bishops within their respective Dioceses and Jurisdictions are spiritual Princes also , that is , chief Pastors and Governours of such a part of the Church in their own right . How far this latter is consonant to your principles , I have already examined , but the former is that we dispute now , concerning the Supreme Government of the Church , Whether that be Monarchical or no , and this is that which his Lordship denies ; and , for all that I see , we may continue to do so too , for any argument you bring to the contrary . Although you produce your Achilles in the next paragraph , viz. that since the Government of one in chief , is by all Philosophers acknowledged for the most perfect , What wonder is it that Christ our Saviour thought it fitter to govern the Church by one Vice-Roy , than Aristocratically , or by many , as he would have it ? But , Are you sure Christ asked the Philosophers opinions , in establishing a Government in the Church ? The Philosophers judged truly that of all Forms of Civil Government , Monarchy was the best , i. e. most conducing to the ends of Civil Government : for the excellency of such things must be measured by their respect to the ends . Now , if we apply this to the Church , we must not measure it by such ends , as we fancy to our selves , or such as are only the ends of meer Civil Societies ; but all must be considered with a respect to the chief design of him who first instituted a Church . And from thence we must draw our Inferences , as to what may tend most to the Peace and Vnity of it . Now it appearing to be the great design of Christ , that mankind should be brought to eternal Happiness , we cannot argue from hence , as to the necessity of any manner of Government , unless one of them hath in it self a greater tendency to this than another hath . For in Civil Governments , the whole design of the Society , is the Civil Peace of it ; but it is otherwise in the Church , the main end of it , is to order things with the greatest conveniency for a future life : Now this being the main end of this Society , and no manner of Government having in it self a greater tendency to this than other : It was in the power of the Legislator , to appoint what Government he pleased himself . But when we consider that he intended this Church of his should be spread all over the world , and this to be his immediate errand he sent his Apostles upon , to preach to every creature , and to plant Churches in the most remote and distant places from each other ; we can have the least ground to fancy he should appoint an Vniversal Monarchy in his Church of any Government whatsoever . For if we will take that boldness you put us upon , to enquire , What form is fittest for a Society dispersed into all parts of the world , and that are not bound , upon their being Christians , to live nearer Rome , than Mexico or Japan , ; Could any one imagine it would be , to appoint one Vice-Roy to superintend his Church at such a place as Rome is ? Suppose all the East and West-Indies consisted of Christian Churches , What advantage , in order to the Government of those Churches , could the Popes Authority be ? What Heresies and Schisms might be among them before his Holiness could be acquainted with them ? These are therefore very slender and narrow Conceptions concerning Christs Institution of a Government over his Catholick Church , as though he should only have regard to these few adjacent parts of Europe , without any respect to the good of the whole Church . But since we see , Christ designed such a Church which might be in most remote and distant places from each other , and yet at such a distance might equally promote the main ends , wherefore they became Churches , it is very unreasonable to think he should appoint one Vice-Roy to be Head over them all . For which , let us suppose , that Europe might be ( as the Eastern Churches have been ) over-run with the Turkish Power , and only some few suffering Christians left here , and the Pope much in the same condition with the Patriarch of Constantinople : But on the other side , that Christianity should largely spread it self in China , and the East Indies , and the Christian Church flourish in America , Could any Philosopher think that fixing a Monarchy at Rome , or elsewhere , were the best way to Govern the Catholick Church , which consists of all these Christian Societies ? For that is certainly the best Government which is suited to all conditions of that Society , which it is intended for ; now it is apparent the Christian Church was intended to be so Catholick , that no one Vice-Roy can be supposed able to look to the Government of it . If Christ had intended meerly such a Church which should have consisted of such persons which lay here near about Rome , and no others , the supposition of such a Monarchy in the Church would not have been altogether so incongruous ( though liable to very many inconveniencies : ) but when he intended his Religion for the universal good of the world , and that in all parts of it , without obliging them to live near each other , it is one of the most unreasonable suppositions in the world , that he should set up a Monarchical Government over his Catholich Church in such a place as Rome is . But now , if we suppose only an Aristocratical Government in the Church under Christ as the alone Supreme Head ; nothing can be more suitable to the nature of the Church , or the large extent of it , than that is . For where-ever a Church is , there may be Bishops to govern it , and other Officers of the Church to over-see the lesser parts of it , and all joyn to promote the Peace and Unity of it , which they may with the more ease do , if no one challenge to be Supreme Head , to whom belongs the chief care of the Church . For by this means they cannot with that power and authority redress abuses , and preserve the Churches Purity and Peace , which otherwise they might have done . So that considering barely the nature of things , nothing seems more repugnant to the end for which Christ instituted a Catholick Church , than such a Monarchy as you imagine ; and nothing more suitable than an Aristocracy ; considering that Christian Churches may be much dispersed abroad , and that where they are , they are incorporated into that Civil Society in which they live ( according to the known saying of Optatus , Ecclesia est in republicâ , &c. ) and therefore such a Monarchy would be unsuitable to the civil Governments in which those Churches may be . For it were easie to demonstrate , that such a Monarchy as you challenge in the Church , is the most inconvenient Government for it , take the Church in what way , or sense you please ; Whether , as to its own peace and order , or to its spreading into other Churches , or to the respect it must have to the civil Government it lives under . And , if we would more largely enquire into these things , we might easily find , that those which you look on as the great ends , wherefore Christ should institute such a Monarchical Government in his Church , are things unsuitable to the nature of a Christian Church ; and which Christ , as far as we can judge , did never intend to take care , that they should never be : which are , freedom from all kind of Controversies , and absolute submission of Judgement to the decrees of an Infallible Judge . We no where find such a state of a Christian Church described or promised , where men shall all be of one mind ( only that peace and brotherly love be continued , is that , all Christians are bound to ) ; much less certainly , that this Vnity should be by a submission of our understandings to an Infallible Judge , of whom we read nothing in that Book which perswades us to be Christians : and without which freedom of our understandings ( which this pretended Infallibility would deprive us of ) we could never have been judicious and rational Christians . But granting that wise men have thought Monarchy the best Government in it self ; What is this to the proving , what Government Christ hath appointed in his Church ? For that is the best Government for the Church , not which Philosophers and Politicians have thought best , but which our Saviour hath appointed in his Word . For he certainly knew best , what would suit with the conveniencies of his Church . And these are bold and insolent disputes , wherein those of your side argue , That Christ must have instituted a Monarchy in his Church , because all Philosophers have judged That the most perfect Government . I need not tell you what these speeches imply Christ to be , if he doth not follow the Philosophers judgement . Will you give him leave to judge what is fittest for his Church himself ? or do you think he hath not wisdom enough to do it , unless the Philosophers instruct him ? Let us therefore appeal to his Laws to see what Government he hath there appointed . And now I shall deal more closely with you . You tell me , therein Christ hath appointed this Monarchical Government . But I may be nearer your mind , when you will Answer me these following Questions . When , and where did any wise Legislator appoint a matter of so vast concernment to the good of the Society , as the Supreme Government of it , and express no more of it in his Laws , than Christ hath done of this Monarchical Government of the Church ? Is there not particular care taken in all Laws about that , to express the rights of Soveraignty , to hinder Vsurpations , to bind all to obedience , to determine the way of Succession by descent or election ? And hath Christ instituted a Monarchy in his Church and said nothing of all these things ? When the utmost you can pretend to , are some ambiguous places , which you must have the power of Interpreting your selves , or they signifie nothing to your purpose . So that none of the Fathers , or the Primitive Church for several Centuries , could find out such mysteries in super hanc Petram , dabo tibi Claves , and pasce oves , as you have done . If such a Monarchy had been appointed in the Church , what should we have had more frequent mention of in the Records of the Church , than of this ? Where do we meet with any Histories that write the affairs of Kingdoms for some hundred of years , and never mention any Royal Acts of the Kings of them ? If St. Peters being at Rome had setled the Monarchy of the Church there , what more famous act could have been mentioned in all Antiquity then that ? What notice would have been taken by other Churches of him whom he had left his Successour ? What addresses would have been made to him by the Bishops of other Churches ? What testimonies of obedience and submission ; what appeals and resort thither ? And it is wonderful strange that the Histories of the Church should be silent in these grand Affairs , when they report many minute things even during the hottest times of persecution . Did the Christians conspire together in those times not to let their posterity know , Who had the Supream Government of the Church then ? Or were they afraid the Heathen Emperours should be jealous of the Popes , if they had understood their great Authority ? But then methinks they should have carried it however among themselves with all reverence and submission to the Pope , and not openly oppose him assoon as ever he began to exercise any Authority , as in the case of Victor and the Asian Bishops . But of all things , it seems most strange and unaccountable to me , that Christ should have instituted such a Monarchy in his Church , and none of the Apostles mention any thing of it in any of the Epistles which they writ , in which are several things concerning the Peace and Government of the Church : nay , when there were Schisms and divisions in the Church , and that on the account of their Teachers , among whom Cephas was one ( by that very name on which Christ said he would build his Church ) and yet no mention of respect more to him , then to any other : no intimation of what power St. Peter had for the Government of the Church , as the Head and Monarch of it : no references at all made to him by any of the divided parties of the Church at that time : no mention at all of any such power given him in the Epistles written by him , but he writes just as any other Apostle did , with great expressions of humility ; and , as if he foresaw what Vsurpations would be in the Church , he forbids any Lording it over Gods heritage , and calls Christ the chief Pastour of the Church . And this he doth in an Epistle not writ to the Catholick Church , which had been most proper for him if Head of the Church , but only to the dispersed Jews in some particular Provinces . Can any one then imagine he should be Monarch of the Church , and no act of his , as such , recorded at all of him ; but carrying himself with all humility , not fixing himself as Head of the Church in any Chair , but going up and down from one place to another , as the rest of the Apostles for promoting the Gospel of Christ ? To conclude all ; Is it possible to conceive there should be a Monarch appointed by Christ in the Church , and yet the Apostle when he reckons up those offices which Christ had set in the Church , speak not one word of him : he mentions Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastours and Teachers ; but the chief of all is omitted , and he to whom the care of all the rest is committed ; and in whose Authority the welfare , peace , and unity of the Church is secured . These things to me seem so incredible , that till you have satisfied my mind in these Questions , I must needs judge this pretended Monarchy in the Church to be one of the greatest Figments ever were in the Christian world . And thus I have at large considered your Argument from Reason , Why there should be such a Monarchy in the Church ; which I have the rather done , because it is one of the great things in dispute between us , and because the most plausible Argument brought for it , is , The necessity of it in order to the Churches peace , which Monarchy being the best of Governments would the most tend to promote . To return now to his Lordship . He brings an evidence out of Antiquity against the acknowledgement of any such Monarchy in the Church from the literae communicatoriae which certified from one great Patriarch to another , Who were fit or unfit to be admitted to their Communion , upon any occasion of repairing from one See to another . And these were sent mutually , and as freely in the same manner from Rome to the other Patriarchs , as from them to it . Out of which ( saith his Lordship ) I think this will follow most directly , that the Church-Government then was Aristocratical . For had the Bishop of Rome been then accounted sole Monarch of the Church , and been put into the definition of the Church ( as he is now by Bellarmin ) all these communicatory Letters should have been directed from him to the rest , as whose admittance ought to be a rule for all to communicate ; but not from others to him , at least not in that even equal brotherly way , as now they appear to be written . For it is no way probable the Bishops of Rome , which even then sought their own greatness too much , would have submitted to the other Patriarchs voluntarily , had not the very course of the Church put it upon them . To this you Answer , That these literae communicatoriae do rather prove our assertion , being ordained by Sixtus 1 , in favour of such Bishops as were called to Rome , or otherwise forced to repair thither ; to the end they might without scruple , be received into their own Diocese at their return : having also decreed , that without such letters communicatory , none in such case should be admitted . But that these letters should be sent from other Bishops to Rome in such an even , equal , and brotherly way , you say , is one of his Lordships Chimaera's . But this difference , or inequality you pretend to be in them ; that those to the Pope were meerly Testimonial ; those from him were Mandatory , witness ( say you ) the case of St. Athanasius and other Bishops restored by the Popes communicatory letters . But supposing them equal , you say , it only shewed the Popes humility ; and ought to be no prejudice to his just authority , and his right and power to do otherwise if he saw cause . But all this depends upon a meer fiction , viz. That these communicatory letters were ordained by Sixtus 1 , in favour of such Bishops as were called to Rome , than which nothing can be more improbable . But I do not say , that this is a Chimaera of your own Brains , for you follow Baronius in it : for which he produceth no other evidence , but the Authour of the lives of the Popes : but Binius adds that which seems to have been the first ground of it , which is the second decretal Epistle of Sixtus 1 , in which that Decree is extant : But whosoever considers the notorious forgery of those decretal Epistles ( as will be more manifested where you contend for them ) on which account they are slighted by Card. Perron , and in many places by Baronius himself , will find little cause to triumph in this Epistle of Sixtus 1. And whoever reflects on the state of those times in which Sixtus lived , will find it improbable enough , that the Pope should take to himself so much Authority to summon Bishops to him , and to order that none should be admitted without Communicatory letters from him . It is not here a place to enquire into the several sorts of those letters which passed among the Bishops of the Primitive Church , whether the Canonical , Pacifical , Ecclesiastical , and Communicatory , were all one ; and what difference there was between the Communicatory letters granted to Travellers , in order to their Communion with forrain Churches , and those letters which were sent from one Patriarch to another . But this is sufficiently evident , that those letters which were the tessera hospitalitatis , as Tertullian calls it , the Pass-port for Communion in forrain Churches , had no more respect to the Bishop of Rome , than to any other Catholick Bishop . Therefore the Council of Antioch passeth two Canons concerning them ; one , That no Traveller should be received without them ; another , That none but Bishops should give them . And that all Bishops did equally grant them to all places , appears by that passage in St. Austin , in his Epistle to Eusebius and the other Donatists , relating the conference he had with Fortunius a Bishop of that party ; wherein St. Austin asked him , Whether he could give communicatory letters whither he pleased ? for by that means it might be easily determined whether he had communion with the whole Catholick Church , or no. From whence it follows , that any Catholick Bishop might without any respect to the Bishop of Rome grant Communicatory letters to all forrain Churches . And the enjoying of that Communion which was consequent upon these letters , is all that Optatus means in that known saying of his , that they had Communion with Siricius at Rome , commercio formatarum , by the use of these communicatory letters . But besides these , there were other letters , which every Patriarch sent to the rest upon his first installment , which were call'd their Synodical Epistles , and these contained the profession of their Faith ; and the answers to them did denote their Communion with them . Since therefore these were sent to all the Patriarchs indifferently , and not barely to the Bishop of Rome ; there appears no difference at all in the letters sent to or from him and the other Patriarchs on this occasion . As for your instance of the Popes restoring Athanasius , I have sufficiently answered it already ; and if the Popes letter were never so Mandatory ( as it was not ) yet we see it took no effect among the Eastern Bishops : and therefore they were of his Lordships mind , That the Government of the Church was not Monarchical , but Aristocratical . I did expect here to have met with the pretended Epistle of Atticus of Constantinople about the manner of making formed letters , wherein one Π is said to be for the honour of St. Peter ; but since you pass it over , on this occasion , I hope you are convinced of the Forgery of it . In the beginning of your next Chapter ( which because of the coherence of the matter I handle with this ) you find great fault with his Lordship for a Marginal citation out of Gerson , because he supposeth that Gersons judgement , was , that the Church might continue without a Monarchical head , because he writ a Tract de Auferibilitate Papae ; whereas , you say , Gersons drift is only to shew how many several waies the Pope may be taken away , that is , deprived of his office , and cease to be Pope as to his own person , so that the Church , pro tempore , till another be chosen shall be without her visible Head. But although the truth of what his Lordship proves , doth not at all depend upon this Testimony of Gerson , which was only a Marginal citation ; yet since you so boldly accuse him for a false allegation , we must further examine how pertinent this Testimony is to that which his Lordship brought it for . The sentence to which this Citation of Gerson refers , is this . For they are no mean ones , who think our Saviour Christ left the Church-militant in the hands of the Apostles , and their Successours , in an Aristocratical , or rather a mixt Government ; and that the Church is not Monarchical , otherwise than the Triumphant and Militant make one body under Christ the Head. Over against these words , that Tract of Gerson de Auferibilitate Papae is cited . If therefore so much be contained in that Book as makes good this , which his Lordship sayes ; he is not so much guilty of false alledging Gerson , as you are of falsly accusing him . To make this clear , we must consider what Gersons design was in writing that Book , and what his opinion therein is concerning the Churches Government . It is well known , that his Book was written upon the occasion of the Council of Constance in the time of the great Schism between the three Popes ; and that the design of it , is , to make it appear that it was in the power of the Council to depose the Popes , and suspend them from all Jurisdiction in the Church . Therefore , he saith , That the Pope may not only lose his office by voluntary cession ; but that in many cases he may be deprived by the Church , or by a General Council representing the Church , whether he consent to it or no : Nay , in the next consideration , he saith , That he may be deprived by a General Council which is celebrated without his consent or against his will ; And , in the following consideration adds , That this may be done not only declaratively , but juridically : the Question now comes to this , Whether a person who asserts these things , doth believe the Government of the Militant Church to be Monarchical , and not rather Aristocratical and mixt Government ? And I dare appeal to any mans reason , whether that may be accounted a Monarchical Government , where he that is Supream may be deposed and deprived of his office in a Juridical manner , by a Senate that hath Authority to do these things ? For it is apparent , the Supream power lyes in the Senate and not the Prince , and that the Prince is only a Ministerial Head under them . And this is plainly Gersons opinion as to the Church ; although therefore he may allow the supream Ministerial Authority to be in the Pope , ( which is all your Citations prove ) yet the radical and intrinsecal power lyes in the Church , which being represented in a General Council , may depose the Pope from his Authority in the Church . And the truth is , this opinion of Gerson makes the Fundamental power of the Church to be Democratical , and that the Supream exercise is by Representatives in a General Council , and that the Pope at the highest , is , but a Ministerial and accountable Head. And therefore Spalatensis truly observes , That this opinion of Gerson ( which is the same with that of the Paris Divines , of which he speaks ) doth only in words attribute supream Ecclesiastical jurisdiction to the Pope , but in reality it takes it quite away from him . And this is the same Doctrine which then prevailed in the Council of Constance , and afterwards at Basil , as may be seen at large in their Synodical Epistle , defended by Richerius , Vigorius , and others . Now let any man of reason judge , whether , notwithstanding your charge of false citation , ( from some expressions intimating only a Ministerial Headship ) his Lordship did not very pertinently cite this Tract of Gersons , to prove that no mean persons did think the Church Militant , not to be Governed by a Monarchical , but by an Aristocratical or mixt Government ? But no sooner is this marginal citation cleared , but the charge is renewed about another , viz. St. Hierom ; yet here you dare not charge his Lordship with a false allegation , but you are put to your shifts to get off this Testimony as well as you can . For , St. Hierom saying expresly in his Epistle to Evagrius , Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus , sive Romae , sive Eugubii , sive Constantinopoli , sive Rhegii , &c. ejusdem meriti est , ejusdem est & sacerdotii ; his Lordship might well inferr , That doubtless he thought not of the Roman Bishops Monarchy . For what Bishop , saith he , is of the same merit or the same degree in the Priesthood with the Pope , as things are now carried at Rome ? To this you Answer , That he speaks not of the Pope , as he is Pope , or in respect of that eminent Authority , which belongs to him as St. Peters Successour , but only compares him with another private Bishop , in respect of meer character or power of a Bishop , as Bishop only . But though this be all which any of your party ever since the Reformation have been able to Answer to this place ; yet nothing looks more like a meer shift than this doth . For had St. Hierom only compared these Bishops together in regard of their order , was not Sacerdotium enough to express that by ; if St. Hierom had said only , that all Bishops are ejusdem sacerdotii , there might have been some plausible pretence for this distinction ; but when he adds ejusdem meriti too , he wholly precludes the possibility of your evading that way . For , What doth merit here stand for as distinct from Priesthood , if it imports not something besides what belongs to Bishops as Bishops ? What can merit here signifie , but some greater Power , Authority , and Jurisdiction given by Christ to one Bishop above another . St. Hierom was not so sensless , as not to see that the Bishops of Rome , Constantinople , and Alexandria , had greater Authority , and larger Jurisdiction in the Church , then the petty Bishops of Eugubium , Rhegium , and Tanis ; but all this he knew well enough came by the custom of the Church , that one Bishop should have larger power in the Church then another . But ( saith he ) if you come to urge us with what ought to be practised in the Church , then , saith he , Orbis major est urbe , it is no one City , as that of Rome ( which he particularly instanceth in ) which can prescribe to the whole world ; For ( saith he ) all Bishops are of equal merit , and the same Priesthood wheresoever they are , whether at Rome or elsewhere . So that it is plain to all , but such as wilfully blind themselves , that St. Hierom speaks not of that , which you call , the Character of Bishops , but of the Authority of them ; for that very word he useth immediately before , Si authoritas quaeritur , orbis major est urbe . And where do you ever find merit applyed to the Bishops Character ? They who say , It is understood of the merit of good life make St. Hierom speak non-sense . For are all Bishops of the same merit of good life ? But we need not go out of Rome for the proper importance of merit here . For in the third Roman Synod under Symmachus , that very word is used concerning Authority and Principality in the Church ; ejus sedi primum Petri Apostoli meritum sive principatus , deinde Conciliorum venerandorum authoritas , &c. where Binius confesseth an account is given of the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome , the first ground of which St. Peters merit or principality ; apply now but this sense to S. Hierom , and he may be very easily understood , All Bishops are ejusdem meriti sive principatus , of the same merit , Dignity or Authority in the Church . But you say , he speaks not of the Pope , as he is Pope : good reason for it , for St. Hierom knew no such Supremacy in the Pope , as he now challengeth . And can you think , if St. Hierom had believed such an authority in the Pope as you do , he would ever have used such words as these are , to compare him with the poor Bishop of Agobio in Merit and Priesthood . I cannot perswade my self you can think so , only something must be said for the cause you have undertaken to defend . And since , Bellarmine , and such great men , had gone before you , you could not believe there were any absurdity in saying as they did . Still you say , He doth not speak of that Authority which belongs to the Bishop of Rome , as S. Peter 's Successor . But if you would but read a little further , you might see that S. Hierom speaks of all Bishops , whether at Rome , or Eugubium , &c. as equally the Apostles Successors : For , it is neither ( saith he ) riches or poverty which makes Bishops higher or lower . Caeterùm omnes Apostolorum successores sunt ; but they are all the Apostles Successors ; therefore he speaks of them with relation to that Authority which they derived from the Apostles . And never had there been greater necessity for him to speak of the Popes succeeding S. Peter in the Supremacy over the Church than here , if he had known any such thing , but he must be excused , he was ignorant of it . No , that he could not be ( say you again ) for he speaks of it elsewhere , and therefore he must be so understood there , as that he neither contradict nor condemn himself . But if the Epistle to Damasus be all your evidence for it , a sufficient account hath been given of that already : therefore you add more , and bid us go find them out , to see , Whether they make for the purpose or no. I am sure your first doth not out of his Commentary on the 13. Psalm , because it only speaks of S. Peters being Head of the Church , and not of the the Popes , and that may import only dignity and preheminence , without authority and jurisdiction : besides , that Commentary on the Psalms is rejected as spurious by Erasmus , Sixtus Senensis , and many others among your selves . Your second , ad Demetriadem Virginem , is much less to your purpose ; for that only speaks of Innocentius coming after Anastasius at Rome , qui Apostolicae Cathedrae & supradicti viri successor & filius est , Who succeeded him in the Apostolical Chair ; But , Do you not know that there were many Apostolical Chairs besides that of Rome , and had every one of them supreme authority over the Church of God ? What , that should be on the 16. of S. Matthew , I cannot imagine , unless it be that S. Peter is called Princeps Apostolorum , which honour we deny him not , or that he saith , Aedificabo Ec●lesiam meam super te : But how these things concern the Popes Authority , unless you had further enlightened us , I cannot understand . That ep . 54. ad Marcellam , is of the same nature with the last , for the words which I suppose you mean , are , Petrus super quem Dominus funda●it Ecclesiam ; and if you see , what Erasmus saith upon that place , you will have little cause to boast much of it . Your last place is , l. 1. Cont. Lucifer ; which I suppose to be that commonly cited thence ; Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet ; but there even Marianus Victorius will tell you , it is understood of every ordinary Bishop , Thus I have taken the pains to search those places you nakedly refer us to in S. Hierom , and find him far enough from the least danger of contradicting or condemning himself , as to any thing which is here spoken by him . So that we see S. Hierom remains a sufficient testimony against the Popes Monarchical Government of the Church . His Lordship further argues against this Monarchy in the Church from the great and undoubted Rule given by Optatus ; that wheresoever there is a Church , there the Church is in the Common-wealth , and not the Common-wealth in the Church . And so also the Church was in the Roman Empire . Now from this ground ( saith his Lordship ) I argue thus . If the Church be within the Empire , or other Kingdom , 't is impossible the Government of the Church should be Monarchical . For no Emperour or King will endure another King within his Dominion , that shall be greater than himself , since the very enduring it makes him that endures it upon the matter no Monarch . Your answer to this , is , That these two Kingdoms are of different natures , the one spiritual , the other temporal : the one exercised only in such things as concern the worship of God , and the Eternal Salvation of souls ; the other in affairs that concern this world only . Surely you would perswade us , we had never heard of much less read Bellarmin's first Book de Pontifice , about the Popes Temporal Power , which was fain to get license for the other four to pass at Rome ; and although he minces the matter as much as may be , and much more than Baronius and others did , who pleaded downright for the Popes Temporal Power ; yet he must be a very weak Prince , who doth not see how far that indirect and reductive power , may extend , when the Pope himself is to be Judge , What comes under it , and what not . And , What may not come under it , when deposing of Princes shall be reduced under that you call The Worship of God ? and absolving subjects from their obedience , tend to promote their Eternal Salvation ? But if the Pope may be Judge , What temporal things are in ordine ad spiritualia , and bring them under his power in that respect , Why may not the Prince be Judge what spiritual things are in ordine ad temporalia , and use his power over them in that respect too ? But in the mean time , Is not a Kingdom like to be at peace then ? If the Pope challenged no other authority but what Christ or the Apostles had , his Government might be admitted , as well as that authority which they had ; but , What do you think of us the mean while , when you would perswade us , that the Popes Power is no other than what Christ or the Apostles had ? you must certainly think us such persons as the Moon hath wrought particularly upon , as you after very civilly speak concerning his Lordship . Your instance from the Kings of France and Spain , his Lordship had sufficiently answered , by telling you , That he that is not blind may see if he will , of what little value the Popes Power is in those Kingdoms , further than to serve their own turns of him , which they do to their great advantage . And when you would have this to be upon the account of Faith and Conscience , Let the Pope exercise his power apparently against their Interest , and then see , on what account they profess obedience to him . But , as long as they can manage such pretences for their advantage , and admit so much of it , and no more , they may very well endure it , and his Lordship be far enough from contradicting himself . When you would urge the same inconvenience against the Aristocratical Government of the Church , you suppose that Aristocratical Government wholly Independent on , and not subordinate to , the Civil Government ; whereas his Lordship and the Church of England assert the Kings Supremacy in Government over all , both persons and causes Ecclesiastical : And therefore this nothing concerns us . And if from what hath gone before , it must , as you say , remain therefore fully proved , that the external Government of the Church on earth is Monarchical . It may for all that I see , remain as fully proved , that you are now the man who enjoy this Monarchical Power over the Church . And whatever you stile the Pope , Whether the Deputy , or Vicar General of Christ , or Servus servorum , or what you will ; it is all one to us as long as we know his meaning , whatever fair words you give him . As though men would take it one jot the better to have one usurp and Tyrannize over them , because he doth not call himself King or Prince , but their humble servant . Is it not by so much the greater Tyranny ? to have such kind of Ecclesiastical Saturnalia , when the servus servorum must , under that name , tyrannize over the whole world ? We have already at large shewed , How destructive this pretended Supremacy is to that Government of the Church by Bishops , which , his Lordship proves from the ancient Canons and Fathers of the Church , doth of right belong to them , viz. from several Canons of the Councils of Antioch and Nice , and the testimonies of S. Augustine and S. Cyprian . To all this you only say , That you allow the Bishops their portion in the Government of Christs Flock : But it is but a very small portion of what belongs to them , if all their Jurisdiction must be derived from the Pope ; which I have shewed before to be the most current Opinion in your Church : And I dare say , you will not dispute the contrary . His Lordship was well enough aware , to what purpose Bellarmine acknowledged that the Government of the Church was ever in the Bishops ; for he himself saith , It was to exclude temporal Princes ; but then he desires A. C. to take notice of that , when Secular Princes are to be excluded , then it shall be pretended , that Bishops have power to govern : but when it comes to sharing stakes between them and the Pope , then hands off ; they have nothing to do any further than the Pope gives them leave . What follows concerning the impossibility of a right executing of this Monarchy in the Church hath been already discussed of , and you answer nothing at all to it that hath any face of pertinency ; for when you say , it will hold as well against the Aristocratical Form , I have plainly enough shewed you the contrary . That which follows about the design of an Vniversal Monarchy in the State , as well as the Church ; about Pope Innocent 's making the Pope to be the Sun , and the Emperour the Moon , the Spanish Friers two Scutchions , Campanella 's Eclogue , since you will not stand to defend them , I shall willingly pass them over . But what concerns the Supremacy of the Civil Power , is more to our purpose , and must be considered . His Lordship therefore saith , That every soul was to be subject to the higher power , Rom. 13.1 . And the higher Power there mentioned , is the Temporal . And the ancient Fathers come in with a full consent , that every soul comprehends all without exception : All spiritual men , even to the highest Bishop , even in spiritual causes too , so the Foundations of Faith and good Manners be not shaken : And where they are shaken , there ought to be prayer and patience , there ought not to be opposition by force . Nay , Emperours and Kings are custodes utriusque Tabulae ; They to whom the custody and preservation of both Tables of the Law , for worship to God , and duty to man , are committed . A Book of the Law was by Gods own command in Moses his time , to be given to the King , Deut. 17.18 . And the Kings under the Law , but still according to it , did proceed to necessary Reformation in Church-businesses ; and therein commanded the very Priests themselves , as appears in the Acts of Hezekiah and Josiah , who yet were never censured to this day for usurping the High-Priests office . Nay , and the greatest Emperours for the Churches honour , Theodosius the elder , and Justinian , and Charls the Great , and divers others , did not only meddle now and then , but enact Laws to the great settlement and encrease of Religion in their several times . Now to this again , you answer , That the civil and spiritual are both absolute and independent powers , though each in their proper Orb , the one in spirituals , the other in temporals . But , What is this to that which his Lordship proves , That there can be no such absolute independent spiritual power ; both because all are bound to obey the Civil Power , and because the Civil Power hath a right to meddle in Ecclesiastical matters ? And , though you express never so much honour to civil authority , yet still you limit it to the administration meerly of civil affairs ; and how far that is , is well enough known . You tell us plainly , That it doth not belong to the Emperour to order the affairs of the Church ; But why do you not answer the Reasons and Instances which his Lordship brings to the contrary ? Yet you yield , That in case of notorious and gross abuses , manifestly contrary to Religion , and connived at by the Pastors of the Church , Christian Princes may lawfully and piously use their Authority , in procuring the said abuses to be effectually redressed by the said Pastors , as the examples of Ezekias and Josias prove . But in case the High-Priest would not have yielded to such a reformation , Might not those Princes , by the assistance of other Priests , have effected it ? This is the case you were to speak to : For whereas you fly out , and say , That Princes may not take the Priests office upon them . Whom do you dispute against in that ? Not his Lordship certainly , nor any of the Church of England , who never said they might , though they have been most injuriously calumniated , as though they did . That which we assert , is , That Princes may enact Laws concerning Religion , and reform abuses in Divine Worship , but we do not say , they may take the Pastoral office upon them ; and therefore you say no more in that than we do our selves . But when you say , They may not reform Religion in the substance of it , I cannot well tell How to understand you . If you mean , not so reform Religion , as to take away any of the substance , that is a Reformation to purpose ; but if you bring it ad hypothesin , we utterly deny that any of the substance of Religion was taken away upon our Churches Reformation : If you mean , not reform abuses which go under the name of the substance of Religion , that will be to make the most unsufferable abuses the most incurable . But , when you add , That nothing must be enacted pertaining to Religion by their own Authority without , or contrary to the Priests consent ( the High-Priest , I suppose you mean ) shew us , Where the Kings of Israel were bound , not to reform in case the High-Priest did not consent : and if you could do this , you must prove such a High-Priest now , and that Princes are bound to wait his leisure for reforming abuses in Religion , when his pretended Authority is upheld by maintaining them . As for your commendations of Pope Hildebrand , and Innocent the Third , for very prudent men , and worthy Champions of your Church , we see , What prudence is with you , and what a worthy Church you have . But it is still an excellent evasion , That they never endeavoured to subject the Emperour to themselves in temporal matters ; no nor Alexander the Third neither , when he trod upon the Emperours neck ? But the proceedings of these Popes with the Emperours , as likewise Adrian 4. Lucius 3. and others , are so gross , that it had been more for your Interest with Christian Princes , to disown them , than to go about to palliate them with such frivolous distinctions , that his Vnderstanding must be as blind as his Obedience , that doth not see thorough them . You are much concerned , that his Lordship should seem to give a lash to those mortified self-denying men , the Jesuits , in bidding them leave their practising to advance the greatness of the Pope and Emperour ; for , Who could believe they should deprive themselves of the riches and pleasures of the world upon such designs ? Undoubtedly you are one of the number , for I never heard that any other Order among you , did ever give them half so good words , but condemned them as much for their practising , as we do our selves . And , What holy men they are , and what excellent Casuistical Divinity about both the riches and pleasures of the world , if we did not otherwise know , the Mysteries of Jesuitism would sufficiently discover . To what his Lordship saith further , That there is no necessity of one Supreme Living Judge , to keep the Church in peace and unity , but that the several Bishops under their Soveraign Princes , are sufficient in order to it ; you only say , That he quotes Occham for it . But , Doth he nothing else but quote Occham ? Why do you not answer to the thing , and not barely to Occham ? You have very good reason for it ; for you have little to say to the thing it self ; but for Occham , you have enough to tell him in his ear . 1. That he is in the Index of forbidden Books ; a good testimony for the man's honesty . 2. That he sided with the Emperour ; a crime beyond an Index Expurgatorius at Rome . 3. That if there were such a Government as Occham supposes , all those Governours must be Infallible , or else there would be meer Anarchy in the Church : And , Why not as well in the State , without Infallibility there ? You say , For want of this Infallibility , those Countries where it is not acknowledged , are in Schisms : And we say , The pretence of this Infallibity hath caused the greatest of them . 4. You say , Occham speaks only de possibili , of what might have been , if our Saviour had pleased ; but Occhamsayes , There is no necessity there should be one chief Governour under Christ , and we say , You can never prove that Christ hath appointed that there shall be one ; and therefore this is more than disputing a bare possibility . But now , as though all your beggings the Question had been arguments , all your sayings proofs , and all your proofs demonstrations , with as much authority as if you were in Cathedrâ , you conculde ; Remain it therefore a settled Catholick Principle , that the Pope hath power over the whole Church of God ; But you leave out something which should be at the end of it , among all those who can believe things as strongly without reason , as with it . And for the greater solemnity of the Sentence you give it in the words of the Oecumenical Council at Florence : And I must needs say , You have fitted them very well , for that was just as much an Oecumenical Council , as the Pope is Oecumenical Pastor : but , that neither the one nor the other is so , I have sufficiently proved already . CHAP. VIII . Of the Council of Trent . The Illegality of it manifested , first from the insufficiency of the Rule it proceeded by , different from that of the first General Councils , and from the Popes Presidency in it . The matter of Right concerning it , discussed . In what Cases Superiours may be excepted against as Parties . The Pope justly excepted against as a Party , and therefore ought not to be Judge . The Necessity of a Reformation in the Court of Rome , acknowledged by Roman Catholicks . The matter of fact enquired into , as to the Popes Presidency in General Councils . Hosius did not preside in the Nicene Council as the Popes Legat. The Pope had nothing to do in the second General Council . Two Councils held at Constantinople , within two years ; these strangely confounded . The mistake made evident . S. Cyril not President in the third General Council as the Popes Legat. No sufficient evidence of the Popes Presidency in following Councils . The justness of the Exception against the place , manifested ; and against the freedom of the Council from the Oath taken by the Bishops to the Pope . The form of that Oath in the time of the Council of Trent . Protestants not condemned by General Councils . The Greeks and others unjustly excluded as Schismaticks . The exception from the small number of Bishops cleared and vindicated . A General Council in Antiquity not so called from the Popes General Summons . In what sense a General Council represents the whole Church . The vast difference between the proceedings in the Council of Nice , and that at Trent . The exception from the number of Italian Bishops , justified . How far the Greek Church and the Patriarch Hieremias may be said to condemn Protestants ; with an account of the proceedings between them . HAving thus far considered the several grounds on which you lay the charge of Schism upon us , and shewed at large the weakness ▪ and insufficiency of them , we should now have proceeded to the last part of our task , but that the great Palladium of the present Roman Church , viz. the Council of Trent must be examined , to see whether it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or no ; whether it came from Heaven , or was only the contrivance of some cunning Artificers . And the famous Bishop of Bitonto in the Sermon made at the opening the Council of Trent , hath given us some ground to conjecture its original by his comparing it so ominously to the Trojan-horse . Although therefore that the pretences may be high and great , that it was made Divina Palladis arte , the Spirit of God being said to be present in it , and concurring with it , yet they who search further will find as much of Artifice in contriving , and deceit in the managing the one as the other . And although the Cardinal Palavicino uses all his art , to bring this Similitude off , without reflecting on the honour of the Council ; yet that Bishop , who in that Sermon pleaded so much , That the Spirit of God would open the mouths of the Council , as he did once those of Balaam and Caiaphas , was himself in this expression an illustrious Instance of the truth of what he said . For he spake as true in this , as if he had been High-Priest himself that year . But , as if you really believed your self the truth of that Bishops Doctrine , That whatever spirit was within them , yet being met in Council , the Spirit of God would infallibly inspire them , you set your self to a serious vindication of the proceedings of that Council ; and not only so , but triumph in it , as that which will bring the cause to a speedy Issue . And therefore we must particularly enquire into all the pretences you bring to justifie the lawfulness and freedom of that Council ; but , to keep to the Bishops Metaphor , Accipe nunc Danaûm Insidias ; & crimine ab uno Disce omnes . And when we have thorowly searched this great Engine of your Church , we shall have little reason to believe , that ever it fell from Heaven . His Lordship then having spoken of the usefulness of free General Councils , for making some Laws which concern the whole Church ; His Adversary thinks presently to give him a Choak-pear , by telling him , That the Council of Trent was a General Council ; and that had already judged the Protestants to hold errours . This you call , Laying the Axe to the Root of the Tree ; that Tree , you mean , out of which the Popes Infallible Chair was cut : for the management of this dispute about the Council of Trent , will redound very little to the honour of your Church or Cause . But you do well to add , That his Lordship was not taken unprovided : for he truly answered , That the Council of Trent was neither a Legal , nor a General Council . Both these we undertake to make good , in opposition to what you bring by way of answer to his Lordships Exceptions to them . That which we begin with , is , That it was not a Legal Council , which his Lordship proves : First , Because that Council maintained publickly , that it is lawful for them to conclude any Controversie , and make it to be de Fide , and so in your judgement fundamental , though it have not a written word for its warrant ; nay , so much as a probable testimony from Scripture . The force of his Lordships argument I suppose lyes in this , that the Decrees of that Council cannot be such as should bind us to an assent to them ; because according to their own principles , those Decrees may have no foundation in Scripture : And that the only legal proceeding in General Councils , is , to decree according to the Scriptures . Now to this you answer , That the meaning of the Council , or Catholick Authours , is not , that the Council may make whatever they please matter of Faith , but only that which is expressed or involved in the Word of God written or unwritten ; and this you confess , is defined by the Council of Trent , in these terms , that in matters of Faith we are to rely not only upon Scripture , but also on Tradition : which Doctrine ( you say ) is true , and that you have already proved it : And I may as well say , It is false , for I have already answered all your pretended proofs . But it is one thing , Whether the Doctrine be true or no ; and another , Whether the Council did proceed legally in defining things upon this principle . For upon your grounds you are bound to believe it true , because the Council hath defined it to be so : But if you will undertake to justifie the proceedings of the Council as legal , you must make it appear that this was the Rule which General Councils have alwaies acted by , in defining any thing to be matter of Faith. But if this appear to be false ; and that you cannot instance in any true General Council , which did look on this as a sufficient ground to proceed upon , then though the thing may , since that Decree , be believed as true , yet that Council did not proceed legally in defining upon such grounds . Name us therefore , What Council did ever offer to determine a matter of Faith meerly upon Tradition ? In the four first General Councils it is well known , What authority was given to the Scripture in their definitions ; and I hope you will not say , That any thing they defined , had no other ground but Tradition . But suppose you could prove this , it is not enough for your purpose , unless you can make it appear , that those Fathers in making such Decrees , did acknowledge they had no ground in Scripture for them . For if you should prove that really there was no foundation but Tradition , yet all that you can inferr thence , is , That those Fathers were deceived in judging they had other grounds , when they had not . But still , if they made Scripture their Rule , and looked on nothing else as a Foundation for their definitions but the written word of God , then the Council of Trent did not proceed legally , in offering to define matters of Faith , on such grounds which were not acknowledged by the Primitive Church , to be sufficient Foundation for such Definitions . Cardinal Cusanus at large gives an account of the method of proceeding in the Ancient General Councils , and therein tells us , not only that the Word of God was placed in the middle among those who sate in Council , but gives this as the only Rule of their proceeding , quòd secundum testimonia Scripturarum decrevit Synodus ; that they decreed according to the testimonies of Scripture . Now if another Council shall go according to a different Rule from what the Church hath esteemed the only true and adaequate Foundation for definition of Faith , that Council breaks the inviolable Laws of Councils , and therefore its proceedings cannot be legal . As for Instance ; Supposing a Parliament not to have power to make new Laws , but to declare only what is Law , and what not ( for that is all you pretend to , as to General Councils ) and that all other former Parliaments have all along professed this to be their Rule , viz. that they search into the body of the Laws ; and if any thing be controverted , Whether it be a Law or no , they make a diligent search into it , and examine all circumstances concerning it , for their own satisfaction , and according to the evidence they find of its being contained in this body of Laws , they declare themselves : but many things growing much in use among a prevailing party , which have no colour of being in the written Laws , but yet tend much to the Interest of that party ; and these being opposed by such , who stand up for the ancient and known Laws , the other are forced to make use of as good an Expedient as they can , to preserve their interest and credit together . To which end they pack together a company of such , who are most concerned to maintain the things in Question , and among these , the great Innovator sits as President among them , and suffers none to come there , but such as are obliged by Oath to speak nothing against his Interest ; and these , when met together , seeing how unable they are to manage their business according to former Precedents ; the first thing they do , is to declare , That customs and usages have as much the force of Laws among them , as any contained in the body of them ; and having established this their Rule , according to it they decree all the matters in difference , to be true and real Laws . Would any man say , That these men proceeded legally , who first make the Foundation they are to go on , contrary to all former Precedents , and then define according to that ? Yet this , in all particulars , is exactly the case of the Council of Trent ; but the last part is that we are now about ; that they should , contrary to the proceedings of all General Councils in matters of Faith , first make their Rule , and then bind all men to all those Decrees which are made according to it . And therefore , though the Council of Trent may be thought to act wisely in advancing Traditions to an equality with Scripture in the first place , yet he must have a great deal of confidence and little judgement , who say's , that in decreeing matters of Faith from Tradition , it acted legally ; i. e. according to the rules of the undoubted General Councils . I cannot therefore say , whether you have more of the one , or less of the other , when you tell us without offering to prove it , That the Council did not proceed in a different manner , from other lawful General Councils whil'st she grounded her definitions , partly on Scripture , partly on Tradition , even in matters not deducible by any particular or Logical Inference from Scripture . The absurdity of which Doctrine in it self , I have at large discovered already in our discourse of the Resolution of Faith , where it is shewed in what sense his Lordship say's , That Apostolical Tradition is the Word of God ; But that this was a legal way of proceeding in the Council of Trent , to define matters of Faith by such Traditions as have no ground in Scripture , had need be better proved , than by your bare Affirmation . And if that be a Tradition too , I am sure it is one that is neither contained in , nor deducible from , the Scripture . 2. His Lordship justly excepts against the Council of Trent , from the Popes sitting as President in it . For , saith he , Is that Council legal , where the Pope the chief person to be reformed shall sit President in it , and be chief Judge in his own cause against all Law , Divine , Natural , and Humane . To this you return an Answer , both to the matter of Right , and the matter of Fact. To the matter of Right , you say , That the Pope not being justly accusable of any crime , but such as must involve , not only the Council , but the whole Church as well as himself , the Protestants had no just cause to quarrel with the Popes presiding in it . Nay , that it is conformable to all Law , Divine , Natural , and Humane , that the Head should preside over the members : and to give Novellists liberty to decline the Popes judgement , or the judgement of any other their lawful Superiours upon pretence of their being parties , is in effect to exempt absolutely such people from all legal censure ; and to grant there is no sufficient means effectually to govern the Church , or condemn Heresie , Schism , and other offences against Religion . But is it not unanswerable on the other side , that this plea of yours makes it impossible , that the errours and corruptions of a Church should be reformed , in case the Governours of the Church do abett and maintain them ? If you say , That it is not possible the Governours of the Church should do so , we have nothing but your bare word for it , and reason and experience manifest the contrary . In case then there be a vehement presumption at least , in a considerable party of the Church , that the Church is much degenerated and needs reformation , but those who call themselves the lawful Superiours of the Church utterly oppose it ; What is to be done in this case ? must the Church continue as it did , meerly because the Superiours make themselves parties ? Nay , suppose that which you would call Idolatry be in the Church , and the Pope and a Council of his packing declare for it ; must there be no endeavours of a Reformation , but by them who pronounce all Hereticks who oppose them ? But you say , The Head must preside over the members : an excellent Argument to defend all usurpations both in Church and State ; for doubtless , they who are in power will call themselves the Heads of all others , if that will secure them from any danger . But this will exempt them from all legal censure : so will your principles , all Governours of the Church though guilty of Heresie , Blasphemy , Idolatry , or what crime soever . For still , I hope , the Head must be over the members ; and you say , it will bring the Church to confusion , if any shall except against their Superiours as parties . You must therefore absolutely and roundly assert , that it is impossible that the Superiours in the Church may be guilty of any errour or corruption ; or that , if they be , they must never be called to an account for it ; or else that it may be just in some cases to except against them as parties . And if in some cases , then the question comes to this , whether the present be some of those cases or no ? and here if you make those Superiours Judges again , what you granted before comes to nothing . This will be more clear by a parallel case : Suppose the setting up the Calves at Dan and Bethel had been done without such an open separation as that of Jeroboam was , but that the people had sensibly declined from the worship of God at Hierusalem , and had agreed to assemble at those places , the High-Priest , and the Priests and Levites having deserted Hierusalem , and approving this alteration of Gods worship : But although this might continue for many years ; yet some of the Inferiour Priests and others of the people reading the Book of the Law , they find the worship of God much altered from what it ought to be , which they publish and declare to others , and bring many of the people to be of their mind ; but the High-Priest and his Clergy ( foreseeing how much it will be to their prejudice to bring things into their due order ) they resolutely oppose it . I pray tell me now , what were to be done in this case ? Must the people stand wholly to the judgement of those Superiour Priests , who have declared themselves to be utterly averse from any Reformation ? And if a Council be called , is it reasonable or just , that he should sit as President in it , because he pretends to be the Head over the members ? and that if Superiours be once accused as parties , all order and peace is gone ? Is there any way left or no , whereby the Church of Israel might be reformed ? Yes , say you , by a General Council ; but , Must it be such a General Council , wherein the High-Priest sits as President , and all who sit with him sworn to do nothing against him ? Is this a Free and General Council likely to reform these things ? And is it not all the Justice in the world , that such a Council should be truly Free and General , and those freely heard who complain of these as great corruptions ? and that before the most equal and indifferent Judges ; or , in case such cannot be assembled , that by the Assistance of the civil power , the Church may be reformed by its parts : so that still these parts be willing to give an account of what they do before any Free and General Council , where the main party accused sits not as President in it ? But what then , may you say ? will you allow all Inferiours to proceed to a Reformation , in case the Superiours do not presently consent ? No : but men ought first to exhibit their complaints of abuses , and the reasons against them , to those who are actually the Superiours of the Church ; and that with all due reverence to Authority ; but if , notwithstanding this , they declare themselves willful and obstinate in defence of those things , by the concurrence of the Supream power they may lawfully and justly proceed to a Reformation . Well , ( but you say ) , all this comes not to your case , for the Pope was not justly accusable of any crime ; for you deny not , but that other Bishops in Council may proceed against the Pope himself , if the case do necessarily require it , as if he be a Heretick . If you will then grant , that in some cases , as in that of Heresie , the Pope may be excepted against as a Party , you destroy all that ever you say besides . For when the Pope is accused for Heresie in a Council , Who must sit as President in that Council ? the Pope himself , or not ? If the Pope must sit as President , ( for the Head , you say still , must be over the members ) Do you think he will ever be condemned for Heresie , if he hath the supream management of the Council ? If he may not sit as President then , by the same reason he ought not to do it , when he is accused of errour or Vsurpation ; but the other Bishops of the Church , met together by the Assistance of Christian Princes in a Free and General Council , ought to be Judges in that case , as well as the former . And this is no more then is agreeable to the Doctrine and practise of the Councils of Constance and Basil ; for if they had suffered the Popes to have been Presidents in them , or have had that power over them , which the Popes had in the Council of Trent , Do you think they could have done so to the present Popes as they did ? But the Popes were grown wiser afterwards ; they had these examples fresh in their memory , and therefore they were resolved never to be ridden by General Councils more . And thence came that continual opposition to all proposals of the Emperour for a General Council , till necessity put the Pope upon yielding to it : thence came the resolution at Rome , not to venture any more Councils in Germany , for that place breathed too much freedome for the Popes interest , though this were most vehemently desired by , both the Emperour , and German Princes and Bishops : Thence , when a Council must be call'd , he summons it first at Mantua , then at Vicenza , and when none would come thither , at last he yields it should be at Trent , a most inconvenient place for the Germans to come to : when they were there , though all art possible was used to prevent the mention of any thing of Reformation , yet sometimes some free words breaking out , troubled the Legats , who dispatch notice of it to Rome , and receive instructions what to do ; yet all could not prevent their fears and jealousies , lest something concerning the Popes Interest should be discussed ; upon which to make all sure they translate the Council to Bononia , and leave the Emperour's bishops to blow their fingers at Trent . And when upon the Emperour and King of France's Protestations , the Pope saw a necessity of removing it back to Trent again , though any fair pretence would have been taken to have dissolved the Council ; yet since that could not be , the greatest care must be used to spin out the time , in hopes of some occurrence happening , which might give a plausible pretext for breaking it up . But to be sure nothing must pass , but what was privately dispatched to Rome and approved there first , ( a good sure way to prevent any mischief ) and thence the Holy Ghost came in a Portmantue once or twice a week , as the common by-word was then . But when , notwithstanding all this , the grand points of the Residence and power of Bishops were so hotly debated by the Spanish Bishops , What arts were used to divert them ? when that would not do , How they bait them in Council by the flouting Italians ? what private Cabals were kept by the Legats , what dispatching and posting to Rome , what numbers of jolly Italians are made Bishops , and sent away to over-vote them ? And when the French-Bishops were come , what Spies did they keep upon them , what bones were thrown to divide the French and Spanish Bishops , what caressing the Cardinal of Lorrain to bring him off by the Court of Rome ? And when any others durst speak freely what checks , and frowns , and disgraces did they meet with ? And all this to keep the Pope safe , who was still in bodily fear till the Council was ended to his mind ; and then what rejoycing , that they had cheated the world so , that that which was intended to clip the wings of the Court of Rome , had confirmed and advanced the Interest of it . This was truly the Head 's presiding over the members : for all the life and motion they had , proceeded from the Influence of their Head , the Pope : Call you this Presiding in a Council ? It is rather riding of it , that by the spurring some and bridling others , they may go just as the Pope would have them . And that this is a true account of it , appears , notwithstanding whatever your Cardinal Palavicino hath been able to object against the impartial history of it ; whose two volumes pretended in Answer to it , consist of so many impertinencies , and hath so very little material in it , that a Roman Catholick himself hath declared to the world , that he hath done more disservice to the Church of Rome by his Answer , then ever Father Paul did by his History : By whom , his two great Books are compared to those Night-birds that make a great shew , but are all Feathers and very little Flesh. This then being the way of management of things at Trent , judge you or any reasonable man , Whether the Protestants have not just cause to except against the Presidentship which the Pope had in that Council ; and name you any General Council ( that was truly accounted so ) where ever he had any thing like it ? The particulars you mention , will be considered afterwards . But you say , All this was because the Pope was not justly accusable of any crime , but what must involve not only the Council , but the whole Church as much as himself . If so , there was the greater reason that he should leave it to the Church in a Free Council to have impartially debated things , without his acting and interposing so much as he did . But the Pope was wiser then to think so ; he knew there were many things in the Court of Rome which many other Bishops struck at , as well as the Protestants ; and that they desired a Reformation of Abuses as well as the other , especially the German , French , and Spanish Bishops . Nay , it is strange to see how much , interest or prejudice blinds men , that they will not acknowledge now that there was any such need of Reformation , when Pope Adrian 6 , confessed at the Dyet at Norimberg , A.D. 1522. by Cheregatus his Legat , that the Popes themselves had been the fountain and cause of all those evils in the Church ; In these remarkable words ( part of which have been cited already on another occasion ) Scimus in hâc sancta Sede , aliquot jam annis , multa abominanda fuisse , abusus in Spiritualibus , excessus in mandatis , & omnia denique in perversum mutata . Nec mirum , si aegritudo à capite in membra , à summis Pontificibus in alios praelatos descenderit . Omnes nos ( sc. praelati Ecclesiastici ) declinavimus , unusquisque in vi●s suas , nec fuit jamdiu , qui faceret bonum , non fuit usque ad unum . Quamobrem necesse est , ut omnes demus gloriam Deo , & humiliemus animas nostras ei : videat unusquisque nostrûm unde exciderit , & se potius quilibet judicet , quàm à Deo in virga furoris sui judicari velit . Qua in re quod ad nos pertinet , polliceberis , Nos omnem operam adhibituros , ut primum Curia haec , unde forte omne hoc malum processit , reformetur : ut sicut inde corruptio in omnes inferiores emanavit , ita ab eadem sanitas & reformatio omnium emanet . Ad quod procurandum nos tanto arctius obligatos reputamus , quando universum mundum hujusmodi reformationem avidiùs desiderare videmus . Can you now for shame say , There was no need of Reformation at that time , and that the Popes were no more concerned then the whole Church ? The whole Church was indeed concerned , to see the Court of Rome reformed , and we see the Pope confesseth , that all the world desired a Reformation . Doth not he ingenuously acknowledge , That many abominable things had been for many years in the Holy See ( and very holy it was , the mean time ) that all things were out of order . That the distemper had fallen from the Head to the members , from the Popes to other Prelates , that they had all gone out of the way , that for a long time there had been none that did good , no not one . That therefore it was necessary , that all should give glory to God , and humble their souls ; and every one see whence he was fallen , and judge himself , rather then be judged by God in the rod of his fury . Wherefore ( saith he to his Legat ) thou shalt promise for us , that we will use our utmost endeavour , that this Court , from whence all the mischief hath proceeded , may be reformed ; that as the corruption hath flowed from thence unto inferiours , so the health and reformation of all may come from thence too . And we look on our selves as the more obliged to procure this , because we see the whole world doth earnestly desire such a Reformation . Whom must we now believe , the Pope or you ? the Pope ingenuously and Christianly bemoaning the corruptions that had been in Popes themselves , and from them had spread to others ; or you , who basely and untruly flatter the Popes , as though they needed no Reformation , but what concerned the Council and Church , as well as them ? And the Pope gives you the true reason of it , Because the corruptions had been so great at Rome , that from thence they had spread over all others . And can you think now , that the Pope was not justly accused of any crime , but that he might sit as President , and manage the affairs of the Council , as though there had been no need at all of any Reformation ? But I remember an observation of Baronius , that the providence of God was so great in watching over the Roman Se● , that the Popes who were unfit to Govern it , seldom continued long in it ; which he makes upon Siricius his favour to Ruffinus ; and such a Pope was this Adrian accounted ; this confession of his being very distastful at Rome , he continued not long after it . But yet I know you have another Answer ready at hand , That all this concerned only some abuses in manners and management of affairs , but nothing confessed to be amiss in Doctrine of Faith. However , since it belonged to the Council to reform those abuses , the Pope as an interessed person ought not to have presided there , had it not been his intention to have prevented any real Reformation . For all the Decrees of the Council to that purpose were meerly delusory and nothing of Reformation followed upon them ; and the most important things to that end could never pass the Council . And if we gain this , that the Pope ought not to be Judge , where himself is concerned , as to the Reformation of abuses ; your former assertion will make the other follow , viz. that in case of Heresie , other Bishops may in Council proceed against the Pope , and , by the same reason , when any errours in Faith are charged upon him , or those who joyn in Communion with him ; that such ought to be debated in a full and free Council , where no one concerned may preside to over-aw the rest . But such Presidents should be appointed as were in former General Councils , to whom it belonged to manage the debates of the Council , without any such Power and Jurisdiction over them , as the Pope pretended to have , over all those assembled at Trent . And thus it appears , that what his Lordship said , was just and true , That it is contrary to all Law , Divine , Natural and Humane , that the Pope should be chief Judge in his own Cause . Your instances of Pope Leo at the Council of Chalcedon , and Alexander at the Council of Nice , will be considered in their due place . Which that we may come to , we must examine the matter of fact , as to the Popes presidency in General Councils . His Lordship denying , that the Pope did preside in the Council of Nice , either by himself or Legats , because Hosius was the President of it ; You Answer , That Hosius did preside in that Council , and so did likewise Vitus and Vincentius Priests of Rome , but ( you say ) they all presided as the Popes Legats and not otherwise . This ( you say ) appears by their subscribing the Conciliary Decrees in the first place of which no other account can be given ; and because Cedrenus and Photius confess that the Pope gave authority to this Council by his Legats ; and in the old preface to the Council of Sardica , it is said expresly , that Hosius was the Popes Legat , and the same acknowledged by Hincmarus , and Gelasius Cyzicenus , whom you prove that Photius had read . These being then all the Evidences you produce for the Popes Presidency at the Nicene Council , we are obliged to afford them a particular consideration . Your first argument , which Bellarmin and Baronius likewise insist on , is the order of subscription , because the name of Hosius is set first ; but , if we mark it , this argument supposeth that which it should prove . For thus it proceeds , Hosius subscribed first , and therefore he was the Roman Legat ; Hosius was the Roman Legat , and therefore he subscribed first : For it supposeth that the first Subscription did of right belong only to the Roman Legat ; which we may as well deny , by an argument just like it , Vitus and Vincentius did not subscribe first , and therefore the Roman Legats did not subscribe first . But you ask , Why then did Hosius subscribe before the Patriarchs , and other Bishops , of greater dignity than himself . I answer , Because Hosius was President of the Council , and not they . But if you ask , Why they chose him President before others , the Nicene Fathers must answer you , and not I. But you say , Cedrenus and Photius confess , That the Pope gave Authority to the Nicene Council by his Legats ; but , How comes that to prove , that Hosius was one of those Legats ? Photius I am sure in his Book of the seven Synods ( first published in Greek by Justellus out of the Sedan Library ) sayes no such thing , but only mentions the two Presbyters who were there the Roman-Bishops Legats . And Cedrenus only mentions the Roman Legats amongst those who were chief in that Council , reckoning up the several Patriarchs . Your old preface to the Sardican Synod ( supposed of Dionysius Exiguus ) is no competent testimony , being of a later Author , and a Roman too : And Hincmarus is much younger than he , and therefore neither of their testimonies hath any force against the ancient Writers ; neither hath that of Gelasius Cyzicenus , who lived under Basiliscus A. D. 476. And that you may not think I do you wrong , to deprive you of his testimony , you may see , How freely Baronius passeth his censure upon those Acts under the name of Nicene Council . Sed , ut liberè dicam , somnia puto haec omnia ; that I may speak freely , I account them no better than dreams : And gives this very good reason for it ; because ever since the time of that Council , all persons have been so extremely desirous of the Acts of that Council , and yet could never obtain them . But that which comes in the rear , transcends all the rest , which is , That Photius , though a Schismatical Greek , and bitter enemy of the Roman Church , witnesseth he had read this Book of Gelasius , and in it the above-cited testimony . And , I pray , What follows from thence ? I hope Photius had read many other Books in that excellent collection of his Bibliotheca besides this ; and , Will you say , that Photius believed all that he there saith he had read ? No , but you say , That thereupon he confesses that the said Hosius was Legat for the Bishop of Rome , at the Council of Nice . But you would have done well to have told us , Where this Confession is extant : for you seem to insinuate , as though it were in the same place where he mentions the reading this Book of Gelasius : but he only saith , That Gelasius affirms it , adding nothing at all of his own judgement ; and in his Book of the seven Synods , where he declares his own mind , he only mentions Vitus and Vincentius , as the Legats of the Roman See : And brings in Hosius afterwards , not joyning him with Vitus and Vincentius , but with Alexander of Constantinople , and Sylvester and Julius of Rome , and Alexander and Athanasius of Alexandria , whom he makes the Chief in the Council . For if Photius had intended to have made Hosius one of the Popes Legats ; there was all the reason in the world he should have set him before Vitus and Vincentius , who were only Presbyters . And that the Pope had no other Legats there but these two Presbyters , we have the consent of all the ancient Ecclesiastical Historians ; Eusebius mentioning the absence of the Roman Bishop , because of his Age adds , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , His Presbyters being present , supplied his place ; so Theodoret the Bishop of Rome could not be present , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but he sent two Presbyters with power to give his assent ; not to preside over the Council . To the same purpose Sozomen , Nicephorus , Zonaras speak . And it is very strange not one of all these Historians should mention this , if Hosius had presided there as Legat of the Bishop of Rome ; and much more , that Hosius should not subscribe first in that capacity , but only as Bishop of Corduba ; for the Popes Legats do not use to be so forgetful of their place and honour . It seems then very plain , that the Pope had no manner of Presidency at the Council ef Nice : We come therefore to following Councils . You grant , That in the second General Council , Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople was President , and not the Pope or his Legats . But the reason ( you say ) was , because Pope Damasus having first summoned that Council to be held at Constantinople , and the Bishops of the Oriental Provinces being accordingly there met , the Pope , for some reasons , altered his mind , and would have had them come to Rome , to joyn with the Bishops he had there assembled : which the Prelates at Constantinople refusing in a submissive manner , alledged such arguments as the Pope remained satisfied with them . So the Council ( you say ) was upon the matter held in two places , at Rome , and Constantinople . So that while the Pope presided in the Council at Rome , and gave allowance to their proceedings at Constantinople , and that by reason of their entercourse , they were looked on but as one Council in effect , and the Pope to have presided therein . In all this you discover , How much you take up things upon trust , and utter them with great confidence , when they seem for your purpose , although they are built upon notorious mistakes in Ecclesiastical History ; as I shall make it plain to you this Answer of yours is . For neither was the General Council at Constantinople ever in the least summoned by the Pope , neither did it ●it at the same time that the Council at Rome under Damasus did ; neither were any Letters sent from that Council to the Pope ; and therefore certainly Pope Damasus could not in any sense be said to preside there . These things , I know , make you wonder at first ; but I shall undertake to make it appear , How much your great Masters ( I need not name them to you ) have abused your credulity in this story . We are to know then , that the Emperour Theodosius having been newly admitted into a share of the Empire by Gratian , and the Eastern parts of it being allotted to him , he considering what a deplorable condition the Churches of those parts were in , by reason of the factions and heresies which were among them , judges it the best expedient to call a Council at Constantinople ; to see if there were any hopes to bring the Church to any peace . For this purpose 150. Bishops meet from the several Provinces at Constantinople , who condemn Macedonius , publish a new Creed , make several Canons , accept of Gregory Nazianzen's resignation of the See of Constantinople , chuse Nectarius in his room , and on the death of Meletius at Antioch , elect Flavianus to succeed him , make a Synodical Epistle to the Emperour Theodosius , giving him an account of their proceedings , and so dissolve . This is the short of the narration of it in Theodoret , Socrates , and Sozomen . But as soon as the report of their actions was come into the Western parts , great discontents are taken at their proceedings , especially at the election of Flavianus to the See at Antioch ; because the Church of Rome had declared it self in favour of Paulinus at Antioch , during the life of Meletius , and therefore by no means would they now yield to the succession of Flavianus . Upon this , Damasus sollicits the Emperour Gratian for a General Council , that the cause might be heard ; and , that the Eastern Bishops might meet too , he sends other Letters to Theodosius to the same purpose ; upon the intimation of which , the Eastern Bishops , who either were detained at Constantinople by several occurrences there , or were sent again out of their Provinces thither , assemble together , and write a Synodical Epistle to Damasus , Ambrosius , Britton , Valerian , &c. wherein they give an account , Why they could not come to Rome , because the Eastern Churches could not , in so divided and busie a time , be left destitute of their Bishops , and therefore they desire to be excused ; but however , they had sent Cyriacus , Eusebius , and Priscianus , as their Legats thither . This excuse the Emperour Theodosius accepted of , and Damasus and his Council were fain to rest satisfied with it ; only some of Paulinus his party met him there , as Epiphanius and S. Hierom ( although S. Hierom being no Bishop , could only shew his good will , and take that opportunity of returning to Rome . ) What this Council did under Damasus , we are to seek ; for both Baronius and Binius confess , that the Acts of that Council , are wholly lost ; only Baronius thinks , that the condemnation of Apollinaris and Timotheus ( which Theodoret mentions ) to have been done before ; and that Paulinus was restored to the See of Antioch by this Council : which seems the more probable , in that Paulinus the next year returns to Antioch ; and because the Bishops of Rome afterward took his part , and defended his successour against Flavianus in the See of Antioch . This being the true account of those proceedings , let now any indifferent person judge , Whether you were not much put to it , when you are fain to confound two Councils held at several times on several occasions , on purpose to blind the Reader , and to make him believe that Pope Damasus had somewhat to do , in calling and presiding in the General Council at Constantinople ; because he requested the meeting of the Bishops again the year after the General Council . And the truth of this , is so plain , that Baronius and Binius confess the difference of these two Councils , both as to the times and occasions of them . Baronius placeth the Oecumenical Council at Constantinople A. D. 381. Eucherius and Syagrius being COSS. in May : but the other Council at Constantinople , he placeth the year after , A. D. 382. Syagrius and Antonius COSS. at which time likewise the Council at Rome sate . And so Binius reckons this Council as a second Council at Constantinople under Damasus , and , in all things concerning the times of this and the former , follows Baronius exactly . So much are the two great Cardinals , Bellarmin and Perron mistaken , when they would have the Council at Constantinople called Oecumenical on this account , because there was a Council at Rome sitting under Damasus , at the same time approving what was done at Constantinople . Whereas the occasion of the Council at Rome was given by some of the last Acts of the Oecumenical Council , viz. the election of Flavianus . But that this could not be , that those two Councils at Rome , and Constantinople , should sit together at the same time , and on the same account , appears by the Synodical Epistle of the Council the year following sent to Damasus , which is exemplified both in Binius and Baronius , and is originally extant in Theodoret. Although Binius placeth it at the end of the Oecumenical Council , but Baronius much more fairly in the next year , as being the Act of the second Council . Now there are two things in that Synodical Epistle by which I shall prove it impossible , that either the Letters of Pope Damasus did concern the calling of the Oecumenical Council , or that the sitting of the Council at Rome , and the General one at Constantinople , could be at the same time . The first is from the date of those Letters , which is thus expressed there : that they met together at Constantinople , having received the Letters which were sent the year before from them to the Emperour Theodosius , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , after the Synod at Aquileia . Now the Synod at Aquileia by Baronius his computation , was held the same year A. D. 381. in which the Oecumenical Council at Constantinople was held , and much later in the year too , for this was held in the Nones of September , and the other in May ; and so much is likewise confessed by Binius in his notes on that Council . Now let me demand of you , Whether is it impossible that Damasus should , by his Letters , summon the Oecumenical Council , when the date of those Letters to Theodosius , is so long after the sitting of it ? But besides this , these Eastern Bishops in that Council , which sate after these Letters of Damasus , clearly distinguished themselves from the Oecumenical Council of the year foregoing : for , after they had given a brief account of their Faith , they referr the Pope and Western Council to that declaration of Faith which had been made the year before by the Oecumenical Council assembled at Constantinople , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 · Is it possible then any thing should be more evident , than that this Council assembled upon the Letters of Damasus to Theodosius , and sitting with the Council at Rome , is clearly distinct from the Oecumenical Council of Constantinople ? And thus I hope I have dispelled those mists which you would cast before the Readers eyes , by confounding these two Councils , and thereby offering to prove that the Pope had some kind of very remote Presidency in the second General Council . Which is so far from being true , that there is not any intimation in any of the ancient Historians , Theodoret , Socrates , or Sozomen , that the Pope , or any of the Western Bishops , had any thing at all to do in it . But you will ask , How comes it then to be accounted an Oecumenical Council ? For this indeed Baronius would fain find out some hand that Damasus had in it , or else he cannot conceive how it should become Oecumenical ; but all the proof he produceth , is , Because in the Acts of the sixth Council it is said , that Theodosius and Damasus opposed Macedonius : and so I hope he might do by declaring his consent to the Doctrine decreed in this Council ; not that thereby his approbation made it Oecumenical . And , as that Doctrine was received , and that Confession of Faith embraced all over the world , so that Council became Oecumenical . For I cannot see but that if Damasus had stood up for Macedonius , if the Decrees against him had been received by the Catholick Church , it had been never the less Oecumenical in the sense of Antiquity : That testimony which Baronius brings out of his own Library , and a Copy of the Vatican , expressing that Damasus did summon the Council at Constantinople , is not to be taken against the consent of the ancient Church-Historians ; it being well known what Interess those Roman Copies have a long time driven on . I deny not therefore but that the Council of Constantinople was assented to by Damasus , and the Western Bishops , in the matters of Faith there decided , but I utterly deny that Damasus had any thing to do in the Presidency over that Council . So that we find a Council alwaies acknowledged to be Oecumenical , in which the Pope had no Presidency at all ; and this very Instance sufficiently refutes your Hypothesis , viz. that the Popes Presidency is necessary to a General Council . In the third General Council held at Ephesus A. D. 431. it is agreed on both sides , that S. Cyril Patriarch of Alexandria , was the President of it : but the Question is , In what capacity he sate there , whether in his own , or as Legat of Celestine Bishop of Rome ? All the proof you produce for the latter , is , That it appears by a Letter written to him by the Pope , long before he sent any other Legats to that Council : in which Letter he gives S. Cyril charge to supply his place , as is testified by Evag●ius , Prosper , Photius , and divers other Authours . But here again you offer to confound two things , which are of a distinct nature : for you would have your Reader believe , that this Letter was sent by Coelestine to Cyril , in order to his Presidentship in the Council , whereas this Letter was sent the year before , without any relation to the Council ; as appears by the series of the story : which is briefly this ; the differences in the Eastern Churches increasing about the Opinions broached by Nestorius , S. Cyril of Alexandria chiefly appearing in opposition to them they both write ( much about the same time ) to Pope Coelestine , impeaching each other of Heresie . But before Coelestine had read the Letters from Nestorius in vindication of himself , Possidonius a Deacon of Alexandria comes with several dispatches from S. Cyril , wherein a large account is given of the heresie and actions of Nestorius ; upon which the Pope calls a Council at Rome , and therein examines the allegations on both sides , which being done , the Council condemns Nestorius , and passeth this sentence on him , That ten daies should be allowed him ( after notice given ) for his repentance ; and , in case of obstinacy , he should be declared excommunicate . And for executing this sentence , Coelestine commits his power to Cyril ; not as though it belonged to the Pope only to do it , but that by this means there might appear the Consent of the Western with the Eastern Bishops , in putting Nestorius out of the communion of the Catholick Church . S. Cyril having received these Letters by the return of Possidonius , dated the third of the Ides of August , as appears by the Letters extant in Baronius , calls a Council at Alexandria , in which four Legats are decreed to be sent to Constantinople in pursuance of the sentence against Nestorius , they deliver the Letters of Coelestine and Cyril to him , he returns them no answer at all , but addresses himself to the Emperour Theodosius , and complains of the persecutions of Cyril , which occasioned a very sharp Letter of the Emperour to him , charging him with disturbing the Churches Peace . But this was not all ; for Cyril having with the Synodical Epistle of the Council of Alexandria , sent twelve Anathematisms to be subscribed by Nestorius , he was so far from it , that he charges Cyril with the heresie of Apollinaris in them , and sends them to Johannes Antiochenus , who ( with the Syrian Bishops of his Diocese ) joyn with Nestorius in the impeachment of Cyril . So that by this means the sentence against Nestorius could not be put in execution , because of the dissent of the Eastern Bishops , and that S. Cyril stood charged with Heresie as well as the other . Things being grown to this height , Theodosius calls a General Council at Ephesus , to be held the ensuing year , writes to all the Metropolitans to appear there at the time appointed , and bring such Bishops with them , as they thought convenient ; but what contentions happened there between the two parties , is not here our business to relate ; but the Emperour foreseeing what disturbance was like to be there , sent the Count Candidianus for better management of the affairs of the Council . Now S. Cyril and his party having the advantage of the other , both in number and forwardness of being there , Cyril sits as President among them . The Question now is , Whether he sate there by virtue of that Legantine Power he had for the excommunicating Nestorius the year before , or not ? or only as Patriarch of Alexandria , and chief of that party ? But by what authority he should challenge to be President of the Council , because he had been deputed by Coelestine to act his part in the excommunicating Nestorius , I think is somewhat hard to understand . Neither doth any thing appear in the Council which gives any ground for it ; for Cyril subscribes to it meerly as Patriarch of Alexandria , the Council on all occasions call him , and Memnon of Ephesus their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and when they speak of Coelestine , after his Legats came , they say , He did only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , assist together with them in Council : But , Why should Coelestine send other Legats afterwards , viz. Arcadius , Philippus , and Projectus , if S. Cyril supplied the Popes place there already ? Yet , although we should grant , that before the Legats came , Cyril did supply the place of Coelestine , yet it doth not follow , that he sate President of the Council on that account : but only to shew the concurrence of Coelestine with the Council in matter of Doctrine ; and this there was good reason for , because Coelestine had fully declared himself to Cyril concerning that already . And this was usual in the Councils , as appears in this very Council by Flavianus Bishop of Philippi ; subscribing likewise in the place of Rufus of Thessalonica . So that if we grant Cyril to sit in the Council as Legat of Coelestine , yet it doth not follow , that he was President of the Council in that capacity ; for the other was only to testifie his consent , this required a particular Commission to that purpose . So that he might give a vote in the Council for Coelestine , and yet sit ( as he did ) President of the Council as Patriarch of Alexandria . Thus it being manifested , that in the three first General Councils , the Pope sate not either by himself or his Legats as President , it is sufficiently proved thereby , that his Presidency is no necessary condition to a General Council ; and if not , then we say , It is unjust and unreasonable he should challenge it , when he is the person mainly accused . But in the mean while it is not at all necessary , that we should deny that ever he sate as President in any other General Council ; for being the Bishop of the chief See , Why should he in a case of general concernment to the Church , as that of Chalcedon , not be allowed by his Legats to have the prime place : But there wants sufficient evidence too , that these were properly the Presidents of that Council . In the next at Constantinople you grant , that Eutychius Bishop of Constantinople sate President ; but you say , That he acknowledged this priviledge to be due to Pope Vigilius . But , How came it to pass then , that he would not sit there , though then at Constantinople ? It appears by the many frivolous excuses he made , that he durst not trust himself in the Council , for fear that authority should not be given him which he expected . For that hath alwaies been the subtilty of the Popes in those elder times , when they began to encroach , not to venture themselves in presence in a General Council , for fear of opposition , but by their absence they reserved to themselves a liberty to declare their dissent , when any Acts passed which did not please them . As Leo did in the case of the Council of Chalcedon . But however , this is evident from the fifth General Council , that the Popes Presidency was not then thought at all necessary . What was done in following Councils , is not material to our purpose , because it doth already sufficiently appear , that the Popes Presidency is not necessary to a General Council , and therefore you conclude with a notorious falsity , in saying with Bellarmin , That the Pope hath been possest full 1500 years of the right of presiding in General Councils . His Lordships third exception against the Council of Trent , is , That the place was not free , but either in , or too near the Popes dominions . To this you Answer , That certainly Trent is not within the Popes dominion : but it is well enough known , that Trent was under the sole jurisdiction of the Bishop , and the Bishop to be sure was under the Popes dominion , having been particularly obliged too , by receiving a Cardinal's Hat. And therefore it was not without just reason that the place was protested against , not only by the German Protestants , as being out of Germany where the States of the Empire had often promised the Council should be ; at the Diet at Norimberg 1524 , at Auspurg 1526. Spire 1529. Ratisbone 1532 , 1541. again at Norimberg 1543. and last of all at Spire 1544. but as a most inconvenient place for them to come to ; being a weeks journey ( as they say ) from the borders of Germany , seated in a barren and almost inaccessible place , having no freedom of passage almost amidst the Alps ; This place , I say , was not only protested against by them , as being contrary to the promises made to them ; but the German Bishops made it their earnest request , that the Council might be held in Germany ; for at Trent , they said they could neither be present themselves , nor send any Legats thither : and particularly instance in the unpassableness of the Alps between them and Trent ; and that it was rather in the borders of Italy then Germany . And the Pope himself in his Answer to the German Bishops , and the Emperours Protestation upon the removal of the Council from Trent to Bononia , insists upon the inconvenience of Trent for the long residence of the Bishops there . And in behalf of the Protestants declaring against this place in regard of the unsafeness of it , the places about being all under the Popes authority : du Ranchin tells you , That it is an exception allowable by the Doctors of the Canon Law , who all agree , that an exception against the safety of the place is pertinent , and ought to be admitted ; that it is good , both by the Civil Law and the Law of Nature , that a man summon'd to a place where any danger threatens him , is not bound to appear , nor to send his Proctour , and that a Judge is bound to assign the parties a place of safety for the hearing of their cause , otherwise there is just cause of appeal . That the Council of Pisa excepted against appearing at Rome on the same accounts , and if they durst not venture to Rome upon the offer of safe-conduct , much less reason had the Protestants to do it , to such a place as Trent , a City , by reason of the neighbouring woods very subject to treacheries and ambushments ; that the very designing such a place yielded ground of fear and suspicion , especially to such as had not forgotten the late examples of John Husse , and Hierom of Prague at the Council of Constance . That the States of Germany in the diet at Francford A. D. 1338. pleaded the nullity of the Popes excommunication of Lewis 5 , because he was cited to Avignon where the Pope was Lord of the place ; and the place being not free for him to appear at , the summons were not Canonical , but void and invalid in Law. This and many other instances are there brought by the same learned Authour to justifie the Protestants in not appearing at Trent , because the place was not free nor safe ; although the Authour seems not to have been one himself . All these things being considered , he must have been an Infidel indeed , who would pronounce Trent to have been the most indifferent place for both parties to meet at . For what you say , That it might have been as unsafe for the Pope and his party , if it had been in Germany : there is no reason at all for it , because of the Emperours openly owning that Interest ; but if you plead the warrs of Germany which then broke out , I hope that may serve as a further plea for the Protestants , who were in a good condition to go to a free Council about matters of Religion , when a war was already begun upon them upon the account of Religion , as most evidently appears , not only by the supplies sent by the Pope , but by the transactions afterwards between the Pope and the Emperour , in some of which it is expresly confessed . But supposing the place had been never so free , there is another great Exception remaining still , viz. That none had suffrage , but such as were sworn to the Pope and Church of Rome , and professed enemies to all that call'd for Reformation or a free Council . To this you Answer , 1. That it is no new thing for Bishops to take an oath of Canonical obedience to the Pope ; for St. Gregory mentions it as an ancient custome in his time ; and therefore this objection would serve as much against ancient General Councils as this of Trent . 2. That the Bishops oath doth not deprive them of the liberty of their suffrage ; nay it doth not so much as oblige them not to proceed and vote even against the Pope himself , if they see just cause ; but only that they will be obedient to him , so long as he commands things suitable to the will of God and the Sacred Canons of the Church . But what falshood and fraud lies in both these Answers , it will not take up much time to discover . Could you without blushing offer to say , That no other oath was taken by the Bishops at the Council of Trent then what was taken in ancient General Councils ? for so much your words imply , when you say , That the same objection would have held as well against them as this of Trent . Why do you not produce some instance of any oath taken to the Pope in any of the first General Councils ? I dare challenge you to bring any footsteps of any such thing in any ancient Council ; and you must needs have exceedingly hardened your forehead that durst let fall any thing tending that way . It was in much later times before that oath of Canonical obedience from Bishops to their Metropolitan came up ; and when it did , no more took any such oath to the Bishop of Rome , then such as were under his Metropolitical jurisdiction . In your citation of Gregory , you would let us see how far you can out-go Bellarmin himself in these things . For Bellarmin only proves , that it is not new for Bishops to take an oath of Canonical obedience to the Pope ; but you say , That Gregory mentions it as an ancient custom in his time , which is egregiously false . For there is not one word in all that Epistle implying any thing of former custome , neither doth it contain an oath of Canonical obedience made by every Bishop at his consecration , but only a Form of renunciation of Heresie by any Bishop who comes off from it to the Catholick Church , and so the title of it is , Promissio cujusdam Episcopi haeresin suam anathematizantis ; and what is this , I pray , to the oath taken by every Bishop at his consecration ? wherein he swears , to defend and retain the Roman Papacy , and the Royalties of St. Peter ( so their new Pontifical hath it , whereas in the old one it was regulas Sanctorum Patrum ) against all men . And was this no more then a bare oath of Canonical obedience ? The first mention we meet with of any oath of Canonical obedience taken by men in Orders , is in the eleventh Council of Toledo cap. 10. held , saith Loaysa , A. D. 675. and therein indeed they say it is expedibile , a matter they judge expedient , That those in orders should , Promissionis suae vota sub cautione spondere , bind themselves by promise to observe the Catholick Faith , and obey their Superiours : but here is nothing at all concerning any oath to be taken by all Bishops to the Pope , though Bellarmin produce it to that purpose . For that was much later then the time of this Council , it beginning at the time of the contests between the Popes and Princes about Investitures ; then the Pope to secure as many as he could to himself , binds them in oath of Fealty and Allegiance , rather then Canonical obedience to himself : by which , as Spalatensis truly saith , he makes the Bishops his slaves and vassals . And therefore in another place , he justly wonders , that any Christian Princes will suffer any Bishops to make that Homage by this oath to the Pope , which is only due to themselves . For , saith he , That oath which was only of Canonical obedience before , they have turned it into absolute homage to the Pope , so that none can be consecrated Bishops without it . But yet you would perswade us , that notwithstanding this oath they may proceed and vote against the Pope himself . Surely , Pope Pius 2 was of another mind , who ( as the Appendix to Vrspergensis tells us ) in an Epistle to the Chapter at Mentz , saith , That to speak truth against the Pope , is to break their oath . But all this will more evidently appear , if we produce the form of the Oath it self , I mean not that in the old Roman Pontifical , but that which was taken in Julius the third's time , which was in the time of the sitting of the Council of Trent . In which , besides in the first place a promise of obedience to the Pope and his Successours , and a promise of concealment of all his Councils , there are these express words , Jura , honores , privilegia , & authoritatem Romanae Ecclesiae , Domini nostri Papae & successorum praedictorum conservare , defendere , augere , & promovere curabo . I will take care to preserve , defend , increase , and promote the rights , honours , priviledges , and authority of the Roman Church , and of our Lord the Pope and his Successours aforesaid ; but lest this should not be full enough , there follows another clause , Nec ero in Concilio , in facto , seu tractatu , in quibus contra Dominum nostrum , vel Romanam Ecclesiam , aliqua sinistra sive praejudicialia personarum , juris , honoris , statûs , & potestatis eorum , machinentur . Et , si talia à quibusdam tractari cognovero , aut procurari , impediam hoc pro posse ; & quantocyus potero commodè significabo eidem Domino nostro , vel alteri per quem ad ipsius notitiam possit pervenire . I will not be in any Council , action , or debate , in which they shall plot or contrive any thing to the prejudice of our Lord the Pope , or the Roman Church , or of any persons , right , honour , state or power , belonging to them . Was not this now a fit Oath to send Bishops to a free Council with ? where the main thing to have been debated had been the usurped power of the Pope and Church of Rome . He that can believe a Council made up of such persons ( who judge this Oath lawful ) to be Free , may think those men free to rebell against their Soveraign , who had but just taken an Oath of Allegiance to him . Not that the Pope had any right or power to impose it , or that the Oath is in it self lawful ; but that those who judged both these things true , could not possibly be more obliged , not to act in any measure against the Pope then they were . And therefore the Pope knew what he did , when he utterly denied to absolve the Bishops of this Oath , which the States of the Empire pressed him to , as necessary in order to the Freedom of the Council : No , said he , I do not mean to have my hands bound up so . He knew well enough , how much his Interest lay at stake , if the Bishops were released of this Oath , and therefore he was resolved to hold them fast enough to himself by it . What restrictions or limitations can you now find out in this Oath , whereby these Bishops might freely debate the power and authority of the Bishop of Rome ? They that swear , not to be in any Council or debate against the Pope , are not like to make any Free Council about the matters then in dispute . And , Do you think now the Protestants had no cause to except against this Council , where all the Bishops were swore before-hand to maintain and defend that which they most complained of . And , Were there nothing else but this Oath , so unheard of a thing in all ancient Councils , so contrary to the ends of a Free Council ; this were enough to keep them from ever submitting to the judgement of such a Council as that of Trent was . And yet this is not all neither : for his Lordship adds , That the Pope himself , to shew his charity , had declared and pronounced the appellants Hereticks , before they were condemned by the Council . I hope , saith he , an Assembly of enemies are no lawful Council ; and I think that the Decrees of such a one are , omni jure nulla , and carry their nullity with them through all Law. All the Answer you give to this , is , That the Pope did nothing therein but in pursuance of the Canons of the Church which required him so to do , and of the Decrees of General Councils , which had already condemned their Opinions for Heresie . You mend the matter well : for it seems the Pope not only did so , but was bound to do so . For shame then never talk of a Free and General Council , to debate those things which you say were already condemned for Heresies by General Councils . One may now see , What the Safe-conduct had been for the Protestants , if they had come to Trent ; for it seems they were condemned for Hereticks before they came there , and nothing then was wanting but execution . But if the Protestants Opinions were condemned for Heresies before by General Councils , Why was the Council of Trent at all summoned ? Why was the world so deceived with the promises of a Free and General Council ? Why did they proceed to make new Decrees in these matters ? In what ancient General Councils will you shew us the Popes Supremacy , the Infallibility of the Church of Rome decreed , that those who held the contrary should be accounted Hereticks ? Speak them out , that we may find our selves therein condemned . Give us a Catalogue of the rest of your Tridentine Articles , and name us the General Councils in which they were decreed as they are there ? But this is not a work for you to meddle in . However , What folly and madness would it be to account that a Free Council , in which the things to be debated are looked on as condemned Heresies already , and no liberty allowed to any persons to debate them ? The last Exception you say of his Lordship , is , against the small number of Bishops present at the Tridentine Council ; and in the first place he mentions the Greeks whom he takes ( say you ) to have been unjustly excluded . To this you say , 1. The Pope called all who had right to come : ( you should say , all whom he would judge to have right to come . ) 2. The Greeks , by reason of their notorious Schism , had excluded themselves : And , Might not the Greeks ( if they were in condition ) every whit as well hold a General Council among themselves . and say , The Latins had excluded themselves by their notorious Schism . You say , It is confessed that no known Heretick or Schismatick , hath right to sit in Council : but still you make your own selves Judges , Who are Orthodox , and who Hereticks and Schismaticks ; and , Might not the Greeks again say the very same of you ? and for all that I know , with much more truth and reason . It was then very like to be a Genegeneral Council , when the Pope and his party must sit as Judges , Who were to be admitted , and who not : Might not the Donatists in Africa have call'd their Council of seventy Bishops an Oecumenical Council upon the same grounds , because they accounted none to belong to the Church , but such as were of their own party ? And if they did not belong to the Church , they could have no right to sit in Council . It seems , the more uncharitable you are , the freer your Councils are ; For the Pope may , by pronouncing men Hereticks and Schismaticks , keep them from coming to Councils , and appearing against him there : and the Council be never the less General for all that . If the Greeks be not called to the Council , they may thank themselves , they are notorious Schismaticks , and , if we believe you , Hereticks too ; If the Protestants be not admitted , it is their own fault they are condemned Hereticks ; if none appear from any other more remote Churches , still the same plea will serve to exclude them all . For my part I much approve the saying of Eugenius in the Council of Florence , when they spake of the paucity of Bishops for a General Council , That where he and the Emperour , and the Patriarch of Constantinople were present , there was a General Council , though there were no more . And Pope Pius the fourth might have saved a great deal of mony in his purse , with which he maintained his Bishops Errant at that Council , had he been of the same mind . But the scene of things was altered in Europe ; there were such clamours made for a General Council , that something must be done to satisfie the world : and , as long as the Pope knew how to manage the business , there would be nothing could breed so great danger in it . He therefore barely summons a Council , without acquainting any of the Eastern Patriarchs with it ( as was the custom in the ancient General Councils ) among whom it was debated after the Emperours indicting of it ; these summoned by the Emperours order their Metropolitans , the Metropolitans the Bishops ; the Bishops they agreed among themselves , who should go to the Council , who on that account might be said to represent those Churches from whence they came . What was there like this in the Council of Trent ? What messages were there sent to the Eastern Patriarchs of Constantinople , Antioch , and Alexanandria ? What Metropolitans came thence ? What Bishops by the consent of those Churches ? And , if there were nothing of all this , What boldness is it to call this a General Council ? Just by the same figure that your Church is called the Catholick Church ; which is ▪ by an insufferable Catachresis . And must six fugitive Greek-Bishops give vote here for all the Eastern Churches ; and two fugitive English-Bishops for all the Church of England ? I do not then at all wonder , How easily this might be a General Council , though there were so very few persons in most of the Sessions of it . But you say , There was no need of any particular sending from the Greeks , as the case then stood , and still continues ; 't is sufficient they were called by the Pope . Sufficient indeed for your purpose ; but not at all for a General Council ; For if the Greek Churches had been in condition to have sent an equal number of Eastern to Western Bishops , the Popes would rather have lost all , than stood to the judgement of such a Council . And this you know well enough , for all your saying , That the Greek Church condemns the Protestants : You dread the Greek Churches meeting you in a Free General Council ; and therefore to prevent that , they must be called Schismaticks , and excluded as such , though you would never permit the debate of the Schism in a Free Council . As the case then stood , and still continues , there was no need of sending . And , Why so ? Is it because those Churches were then under persecutions , and are still , and therefore there is no hopes that the Bishops should come to a General Council ? But all that thence follows , is , that as things stood then , and do still , there can be no truly General Council ; and that is a just inference : but I suppose you rather mean , because those Churches were then in Schism , and are still , which still discovers what a wonderful good opinion you have of your selves , and how uncharitable you are to all others . And so great is the excellency of your Bishops , that one of them may represent a whole Nation ; and so about fifty will be more than sufficient for the whole world . And therefore I rather wonder there were so many Bishops at Trent ; for , if the Pope pleased , as he made Patriarchs , Primats , and Arch-Bishops of such places where they never durst go ( which he knew well enough ) it had been but appointing such to stand for such a Nation , and such for another , and a small number might have served turn , without putting any to the trouble of coming from any forein Countries at all . For otherwise , if we go about to examine the numbers of Bishops , by their proportions to the Churches they come from , as it ought to be in General Councils , we shall find a most pitiful account in the Council of Trent . For as his Lordship saith , Is it to be accounted a General Council , that in many Sessions had scarce ten Arch-Bishops , or forty or fifty Bishops present ? In all the Sessions under Paul 3. but two Frenchmen , and sometimes none ; as in the sixth , under Julius 3. when Henry 2. of France protested against that Council . And from England but one or two ( by your own confession ) and those not sent by Authority . And the French ( he saith ) held off till the Cardinal of Lorrain was got to Rome . As for the Spaniards , they laboured for many things upon good grounds , but were most unworthily over-born . Now to this you have a double Answer ready , 1. That mission or deputation , is not of absolute necessity , but only of Canonical provision , when time or state of the Countries whence Bishops are sent , will permit ; in other cases , it sufficeth they be called by the Pope . 2. For those who were absent , the impediment was not on the Councils part ; and in the latter Sessions ( wherein all that had been formerly desined by the Council , was de Novo confirmed and ratified by the unanimous consent of all the Prelates ) 't is manifest , the Council was so full , that in the number of Bishops it exceeded some of the first four General Councils . I begin with your first Answer , which necessarily implies , that a General Council is not so called by representation of the whole Church , but by relation to the Popes Summons . So that if the Pope make a General Summons , that must be called a General Council , though none be present but such whom the Pope shall think fit to call thither . But , Where do you find any such account of a General Council in all Antiquity ? I have given you instances already of General Councils , in which the Popes had nothing at all to do with the summoning of them ; nay , all the four General Councils were called by the Emperour , and not by the Pope , as any one may see , that doth not wilfully blind himself . The Pope sometimes did beseech and intreat the Emperour to call a Council , but never presumed to do it himself in those daies . And this is evident , not only from the Historians , but from the authentick Acts of the Councils themselves ; and Perron's distinction of the temporal and spiritual call of Councils , is as ill grounded as the Popes temporal and spiritual power ; there being no foundation at all in Anquity , nor any reason in the thing , for two such several Calls , the one by the Emperour , and the other by the Pope . But this is a meer evasion , the evidence being so clear , as to the Emperours calling those Councils , the Nicene by Constantine , the Constantinopolitan by Theodosius , the Ephesine by the Junior Theodosius , the Chalcedonian by Martian and Valentinian : And this is so clear , that Bellarmine in his Recognitions confesseth his mistake about the Constantinopolitan Council being called by the Letters of Pope Damasus ; and acknowledges that to be true , which I at large proved before , That the Synodical Epistle was not sent by the General Council , but by another the year after . If then the calling of Councils belongs not of right to the Pope , it is not his summoning which can make a General Council , without mission and deputation from those Churches whom they are to represent . And any other sense of a General Council is contrary to the sense of Antiquity , and is forced , and unreasonable in it self . For it must be either absolutely general , or by representation ; none ever imagined yet an absolutely General Council , and therefore it must be so called as it doth represent ; if so , then there is a necessity of such a deputation . But here a Question might arise , Whether those Deputies of Churches have power by their own votes to oblige the Churches they are sent from , by conveying in a General Council ; or else only as they carry with them the sense of those Churches whom they represent : and this latter seems more agreeable to the nature of a truly General Council , whose acts must oblige the whole Church . For that can only be said to be the act of the whole Church , which is done by the Bishops delivering the sense of all particular Churches ; and it is not easie to understand , How the Vniversal Church can be obliged any other way ; unless it be proved , that General Councils are instituted by some positive Law of Christ ; so that what is done by the Bishops in them , must oblige the Catholick Church ; and then we must find out not only the Institution it self , but the way and manner how General Councils should be called , of which the Scripture is wholly silent . And therefore there is no reason that there should be any other General Council imagined , but by such a representation ; and in order to this , the consent of all those Churches must be known by the particular Bishops , before they can concurr with others , so as to make a General Council . The most suitable way then to a General Council , is , that the Summons of them being published by the consent of Christian Princes , every Prince may call together a National Synod , in which the matters to be debated in the Council , are to be discussed , and the sense of that Synod fully declared , which those Bishops who are appointed by it to go to the General Council , are to carry with them , and there to declare the sense of their particular Church , and what all these Bishops so assembled do all agree in , as the sense of the whole Church , may be called the decree of a General Council . Or in case some great impediment happen , that such Bishops cannot assemble from all Churches , but a very considerable number appearing and declaring themselves , which upon the first notice of it , is universally received by all particular Churches , that may ex post-facto be called a General Council ; as it was with the first four Oecumenical Councils . And yet that in them there was such a deputation as this is , appears by that expression in the Synodical Epistle of the Bishops of Constantinople before mentioned ; for in that they give this account , Why they could not do what the Western Bishops desired , because they brought not with them the consent of the Bishops , who remained at home to that purpose . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And concerning this only Council , viz. at Constantinople , have we brought the consent of those Bishops which remain in the Provinces . So that they looked on the consent of the other Bishops to be necessary as well as their own . But now , if we examine your Council of Trent by this Rule , How far is it from any appearance of a General Council ? What Bishops were there sent from the most of Christian Churches ? Those that did appear , What equality and proportion was there among them ? For Voices in General Councils ought not to go by the number of Bishops , but by the number of Churches ; so that if six were sent from the Church of England , or France , delivering the sense of that Church they come from , they have equal Votes with the greatest number of Italian Bishops . But here lay the great imposture of that Council ; first , that the Councils being general , depended upon the Popes general Summons , though never so few Bishops appeared ; next that the Decrees of the Council were to be carried by most Voices , and the Bishops to give their bare placet ; these things being thus laid , when there was any fear that businesses would not go right , it was but the Legats using some art in delaying it , and sending intelligence to Rome , and forty Bishops are made together , and posted to Trent , to help out the number of voices ; and thus it was in the case of the Institution and Residence of Bishops : And this is that you call , a General Council . 2. To your other , That what was wanting in number at first , was made up at last when all former Decrees were confirmed by a full number of Bishops ; it is soon replied , That this is , as all the rest of the proceedings of that Council was , but a meer Artifice . For it appears by the History of that Council , that in the last Session under Pius 4. a Proposition was made , that all the Decrees under Paul and Julius should be approved ; which was opposed , because they said it would be a derogation to the Authority of the Council of those times , if it should seem that the things then done had need of a new confirmation of the Fathers , and would shew , that this and that was not all one , because none can confirm his own things . But upon the French Bishops earnest insisting upon it , it was determined simply to read them , and no more . And , Do you call this a confirming and ratifying them de novo ? So that , for all appears by this last Session , the Authority of those Decrees , must , as far as concerns the Council , depend upon the number of the Bishops then present , which was but very small certainly for a General Council , there being not so many in most of the Sessions , as were in the Donatists Council in Africa ; so far were they from the number of the ancient General Councils . But here comes your grand Objection in the way , That nothing is pretended by us against the Council of Trent , which might not have been in effect as justly objected by the Arrians against the Council of Nice . But , Is not there easily discernable a vast disparity between these two , which way soever we conceive them ? The one called by the Emperour , who in person sate in the Council , to prevent all disorders and clancular actions ; the other by the Pope , who presided in it by his Legats , and ordered all things by his directions . In that of Nice , the Arrian Bishops were as freely admitted to debate , as any of the other ; but it was far from being so at the Council of Trent . In the Nicene Council , though Alexander was no further a party as to the Doctrine than the other Bishops ( no more was Leo at the Council of Chalcedon , or Cyril at Ephesus , though those are the three you instance in before ) yet he sate not as President of the Council , but the Emperour had the chief Inspection for the right management of it , and for the Conciliar actions Hosius was President : Would the Pope have been contented with such a Council in his case , wherein the Emperour should have sate in chief , and some other person besides the Pope to have presided ? If not , never go about to parallel these two Councils with each other . Again , in the Council of Nice , all the Bishops came free , without any praeengagement to maintain the party of Alexander ; but the Bishops at Trent were all sworn to defend the Papal Interest . At Nice , the Bishops themselves debated the matters in Controversie ; at Trent , the Divines dispute , the Bishops in their formalities give their Placet . At Nice , every one was freely heard , none died for grief of checks being given them for their too free speaking , as there did at Trent . And these , I hope , shew , there was much greater reason for the Protestants to except against the Council of Trent , than for the Arrians against the Council of Nice . And yet , besides all these grounds of disparity , those two remain good still , which his Lordship instanceth in , viz. That the Council of Nice proceeded wholly by the Scripture , and that the sentence of it hath been universally received by the Church , both before and after it ; neither of which can be said of the Council of Trent . But to these two you offer something by way of Answer . To the first , That both these Councils had the Scripture for their Rule , but not their only Rule ; for , you say , Theodoret expresly sayes , that in condemning the Arrian Heresie , the Council of Nice grounded it self upon Tradition . But Theodoret sayes no such thing ; only out of an Epistle of Athanasius , he sayes , When the Arrians objected that they used words not contained in Scripture , they gave them this Answer , that so did they too ; but the words which they used , were such as their Fathers had used before them ; and , Do you call this the grounding the condemnation of them upon Tradition ? Yet , to do you right , I must suppose that either you took this upon trust , without searching Theodoret ; or , if you did , you looked no further than Christophorsons Translation , which in things concerning the Papal Controversies , doth notoriously trip ( to say no worse of it , as it were easie to manifest from several examples ) but we need no more than this present . For whereas the words in Greek run thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Which Sirmondus faithfully renders , Nam cùm ipsi ex verbis non-scriptis impietatem suam adstruxerint : nusquam enim scriptum reperias Ex non extantibus ; aut , Erat quando non erat ; accusant quod per voces non-scriptas , piè tamen excogitatas , condemnati sint , i. e. Though the Arrians made use of unwritten words themselves ; yet they accused their adversaries for condemning them by unwritten words ; meaning the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . But Christophorson translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , afferunt , and there ends the sentence , and then makes a new sentence . Quapropter ex non-scriptis vocibus , piè tamen excogitatis , condemnati sunt . By this wee see , What necessity there is of searching your Citations in Antiquity , which you deliver with so much confidence , as though none had ever looked into the Fathers but your selves . But I find you so often tripping in your quotations , that where Bellarmine hath been used by the Latin Interpreter , you very securely follow him in it ; as in another place mentioned in this Chapter , where Christophorson renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mandato literarum , which Bellarmine confidently cites , as importing Damasus his power to summon the Council of Constantinople , than which nothing can be further from the meaning of those words . Thus you see , how vain your attempt is , of proving that the Council of Nice grounded her definition on Tradition , as the Council of Trent did , which is directly contrary to the advice of Constantine , and the Proceedings of the Council , as his Lordship truly told you . To the second concerning the consent of the Church , you answer , That the like consent of the Church both is , and was , when Protestans first began . But , Will this reach to a Parity , if it were granted ? for his Lordship speaks of the Consent of the Church in all ages , from the Primitive and Apostolical times . I pray , prove your Mass , Invocation of Saints , Worship of Images , Purgatory , &c. by such a Consent as this , and then you may say , There is no such disparity between them : As to what you further add of the Council of Nice , condemning the Quartodecimani for Hereticks , I know not where you will find it , I am sure Constantine is far from saying so in his Epistle perswading to union as to that matter . Cannot the Council of Nice appoint time to celebrate Easter ? or determine , that those who come from Hereticks , shall not be rebaptized , but they must presently condemn all who do otherwise , for Hereticks ? But you must be pardoned ; you are proving a Parity between the Council of Nice and Trent , and you know you could not do that sufficiently , unless they condemned all dissenters in any punctilio , for Hereticks . His Lordship further proves , That Trent could be no indifferent Council to the Church , the Pope having made himself a strong party in it ; because there were more Italian Bishops there , than of all Christendom besides ; yea more than double . For where the number of Prelates is expressed that had suffrage and vote in that Council , the Italians are set down to be a hundred eighty seven , and all the rest make but eighty three , so that there were more Italian Bishops by a hundred and four , than of all the rest of Christendom ; sure ( saith he ) the Pope did not mean to be over-reached in this Council . And whatsoever became of his Infallibility otherwise , he might this way be sure to be Infallible in whatsoever he would have determined . And this without all doubt is all the Infallibility he hath . To this you answer , That the Popes making a party , is disproved by the very argument he brings to assert it , viz. the multitude of Italian Prelates ; for , Who knows not , that the Italians are more divided in point of Interest and Dependence , than in any other Nation of Christendom , by reason of the many Soveraign Principalities and States , into which Italy is divided ? But , What is this to the purpose , unless you could prove that the Italian Prelates were so divided in point of Interest and dependence ? Since therefore they have all their dependence on the Pope , and not on those Principalities in which they live ; this evasion , though very sleight , is yet the best your cause would bear . And the greater you say , the number of Bishopricks is in Italy , the more friends , I hope , the Pope must make by disposing them ; and , Could they do the Pope better service , than to help him in this grand business at Trent , wherein they sought to outvy each other by promoting the Popes Interest . But not only the Protestants complained of this , but the Emperour and other Princes , and all impartial men in Germany , France ; nay , and in some part of Italy too . But here his Lordship encounters an Objection of Bellarmine , viz. that in the Council of Nice there were as few Bishops of the West present , as were of the East at Trent , and manifestly shews the great disparity between the the two Councils . 1. Because it is not a meer disparity in number which he insists on , but with it the Popes carriage , to be sure of a major part ; but neither the Greek Church in general , nor any Patriarch of the East , had any private interest to look to , in the Council at Nice . 2. It was not so much a disparity between the Eastern and Western Bishops , but that there were so many more Italians and Bishops obnoxious to the Popes Power , than of all Germany , France , Spain , and of all other parts of the West besides . 3. Even in the comparison of those two Councils , as to Eastern and Western Bishops , there is this remarkable difference , that Pope Sylvester with 275. Bishops confirmed the Council at Nice , but the Council at Trent was never confirmed by any Council of Eastern Bishops . To the two first of these you Answer with your best property , silence . Only you would fain perswade some silly people ( if there be any so weak in the world that enquire into such things ) That the Pope had no private interest at Trent , but what was common to him with other Bishops . You should have done well to have commended the excellency of an implicite Faith , before you had uttered a thing so contrary to the sense of the whole Christian World. To the third you confess , It is some disparity , but nothing to the purpose , because if the Pope himself had ratified them , the Council would have had as much Authority as by that accessory Assembly . The more to blame was the Pope a great deal , for putting so many Bishops to so needless a trouble . But you say further , This Council was not held just at the same time . But Binius tells you , it was held assoon as might be , after the notice of what was done at Nice ; shew us the like of the Eastern Bishops at any time , and we will not quarrel with you , because it was not at the same time : Though these Answers may pass for want of better , they come not near your last , which is a prodigious one , the sense of it being , That the Doctrine of Faith defined by the Council of Trent was more universally received in the Church , then that of the Council of Nice . For that of Trent , you say , was universally received by the whole Catholick Church , and hath been more constantly held ever since ; whereas many Provinces , either in whole or in part , deserted the Faith defined at Nice , and embraced the Arrian Heresie . It seems then , the twelve good Articles of Trent have been more generally received by the Catholick Church , then the eternal existence of the Son of God ; and consequently , that you are more bound to believe the Doctrine of Purgatory , or Transubstantiation , then that the Son is of the same substance with the Father : For your grounds of Faith being resolved into the Churches Infallibility , you cannot believe that which hath been so much questioned in the Church , so firmly as that which hath been universally believed and constantly held . But the universal reception of the Doctrine of the Council of Trent by the whole Catholick Church , is so intolerable a falshood , that you would scarce have vented it , unless it were your design to write for the Whetstone . To C's objection , That neither French , nor Spanish , nor Schismatical Greeks did agree with the Protestants in those points which were defined by the Council , his Lordship Answers , That there can be no certainty , who did agree , and who not , ( or who might have agreed before the Council ended ) because they were not admitted to a fair and free dispute . And it may be too , some Decrees would have been more favourable to them , had not the care of the Popes Interest made them sowrer . Here you complain , of his Lordships falling again to his Surmizes , of the Bishops being over-awed by the Popes Authority in the Council ; which you call an empty and injurious suspicion , an unworthy accusation , and arguing the want of Christian charity . But usually when you storm the most , you are the most guilty . For if you call this an empty suspicion , &c. you charge many more with it besides his Lordship , and those , the greatest of your own Communion ; what meant else , the frequent Protestations of the French and Spanish Ambassadours , in which they often declared , that as things were managed , the Council was not Free ? What meant those words of the Emperour Ferdinand , in his Letters to the Legats and the Pope ? That the Liberty of the Council was impeached chiefly by three causes : one , because every thing was first consulted of at Rome : another , because the Legats had assumed to themselves only the liberty of proposing , which ought to be common to all : the third , because of the practises which some Prelats interested in the Greatness of the Court of Rome did make . The French Ambassadour , Monsieur de Lansac writ to the King his Master , That the Pope was so much Master of this Council , that his Pensioners , whatsoever the Emperours or we do remonstrate to them , will do but what they list . Several of the like nature might easily be produced , so that it is not his Lordship only is guilty of this want of charity ( as you call it ) but all impartial persons , who were most acquainted with the Affairs of that Council . Whose judgement is certainly much more to be taken then such who have sworn to defend it . But you have an excellent Argument to prove the Council Free , because the Bishops of the Council continued in the Faith and Doctrine of it as long as they lived . And had they not good reason so to do , when they were sworn before hand to defend the Pope , and having secured him from danger of reformation by the Council , and subscribed the Decrees of it , they were as much bound to defend their own acts . And although it is well enough known what practises were used to bring off the French and Spanish Bishops ; yet when they were brought off , what a shame would it have been for them to have revolted from their own Subscriptions ? But what is this to that General freedom which was desired by the Roman Catholick Princes for Reformation of the Court of Rome , and by Protestants both of the Court and Church ? Was the Council any thing the more free , because that party which met there continued in what they had done ? Just , as if a part of a Common-Council should suffer only such persons to come there whom they thought fit , and suffer nothing to be debated , but what two or three of the leading men should propound , and yet this be call'd a free Common-Council , because they who were of it , did after they had done , persist in it ? And this is all you have to plead for the Freedom of the Council of Trent . Touching the Greek Church and the writings of the Patriarch Hieremias , it is to little purpose , to say , That they differ from us in several things , unless you could prove , that they did agree with you in all . And if ( as you say ) they do condemn Protestantism , you cannot but know they do much more condemn Popery ; and that in some of the main Articles of it . And therefore we have reason to believe , that you more dread a Free Council , wherein the Greek Churches may be admitted to equal votes with the Latin , then the Protestants do the judgement of the Greek Church . For it is sufficiently known , how much the Greeks agree with us in the opposition to the great points of the Popes Supremacy , and the Infallibility of the Church of Rome ; how far they are from the belief of Purgatory in your sense , and several other things which are contained in the Decrees of the Council of Trent : If the Patriarch Hieremias did not in all things agree with the Lutheran Divines , doth it thence follow , that he would subscribe to the Council of Trent ? But because you pretend to give us a full account of the proceedings , between the Patriarch Hieremias , and the Lutheran Divines , we must a little further enquire into them . You tell us then , That about the end of the last Century , some eminent Protestants of the Lutheran party , endeavoured to feel the pulse of the Greek Church , to see if they could there find any Symptoms of their own disease . The design was ( you say ) to close with the Greeks , for the better making out the pretended perpetual succession of their Church ; which Project they so hotly pursued , though formerly in vain attempted , that they would not desist till the Patriarch being settled in his Throne , they had sent him the sum of their reformed belief , drawn up according to the Augustan Confession . After a long entercourse of letters , answers , and replies mutually continued for some years , and all Arguments used that might induce the Patriarch to receive them into his communion , he could not be courted to so much as the least shew of approving their Doctrine : but did in all his Answers clearly confirm the Tenets of the Roman Catholick Church , which those Lutherans endeavoured to overthrow . In so much , that the Patriarch tyred with their importunity , gave them a rebuke for their departure from the Doctrine of the Catholick Church , and desired them not to trouble him any more with their writings . A very formal story ! One would expect the next news should have been , that the Patriarch had come to kiss his Holiness's feet , or at least subscribed to the Council of Trent . But all your stories out of the East have not so much truth as formality in them : witness one for all , that solemn legation from Gabriel Patriarch of Alexandria , to Pope Clement 8 , wherein an acknowledgement was made of the Popes Supremacy as Head of the Church ; upon which , such joy was conceived at Rome , that Baronius unmeasurably triumphs upon it , and sayes , it tends as much to the joy of Catholicks , as to the confusion of Hereticks : and therefore hath very solemnly published the Legation it self ; at the end of the sixth Tome of his Annals ; but upon a further examination of it , it was all found to be a meer fiction and imposture of one Barton , as both Thuanus and Thomas à Jesu confess . But we must suppose no such danger in this story , for you tell us , You have it from Spondanus , and he out of the writings of those Protestants themselves : but I much rather believe by the circumstances of your story , that either you , or Spondanus , had it from Socolovius their virulent adversary , who having clancularly procured a Copy of the Patriarchs Answer , he publishes it in Latin with the title of Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae , and gives much the same account as you do here . In which there are two grand mistakes , first , as to the design , which you say , was to be admitted into Communion with the Greek Church : The second , as to the event which you say was , That the Patriarch did not shew the least approbation of their Doctrine , but did in all his Answers confirm the Tenets of the Roman Catholick Church . Both which , how notoriously false they are , will presently appear by a full account of the circumstances of this affair . We must know then , that the news of the Lutherans appearing in Germany against the Pope being spread at Constantinople , great enquiry was made what their doctrine was , and they were represented ( by whose arts one may easily guess ) as men holding strange opinions , denying the Divinity of Christ , &c. as appears by a letter lately published of a Divine about that time resident in Constantinople ; and withall , that they were defamed generally as persons of no Religion at all , and of wicked and flagitious lives : upon this , those German Divines send by Stephanus Gerlachius Chaplain to the Emperours Embassadour , a Greek copy of the Augustan Confession , Martinus Crusius having before sent a letter only of respect to the Patriarch Hieremias ; who by the means of Cantacuzenus was made Patriarch in the room of Metrophanes , who was then deposed . Gerlachius , as appears by a letter of his dated May 24 ▪ A. 1575. carries the copy of the Augustan Confession to the Patriarch , who then had his Council about him , which with great joy and delight , he saith , he read in the presence of them , and delivered it to be read to the Priests and Calogeri ; but five points he selected out of it to be further discussed , and when afterwards he waited on the Patriarch to know his judgement concerning it , Johannes Zygomalas , who was then the Rhetor Patriarchicus a kind of Chancellour to him , told him , that having read it almost all over , they approved almost all , except that about procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , and unleavened bread ; but he particularly desired the Patriarch to return an Answer to the Divines , who sent it with his judgement upon it : and having spoken with the Metropolitan of Nice and others , they seemed very much pleased with that Confession . With the Patriarchs letter Johannes Zygomalas writes to Martin Crusius , and therein tells him , that though in all things the Patriarch did not assent to them ; yet it might be evident to all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they did agree in the most important Articles of Christian Faith ; and that in other things they might easily agree , if they left the new and strange customs and adhered to the Catholick Church with them , and there was the greater hopes of it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Since neither part did agree with the Bishop of old Rome , or the Church which joynes with him , but both oppose the evil customs and abuses which come by him : which bears the same date with the Patriarchs first Answer to the Tubing Divines May 15. 1576. And the Patriarch in his letter heartily wishes an union and conjunction between them . From hence we may easily gather , how true both those things were , viz. That the intent of their writing was , to be admitted into the communion of the Greek Church , and that the Patriarch did not in the least approve their Doctrine , but confirmed the Tenets of the Roman Catholick Church . But we must look further into the writings themselves , to see how far they agreed , and wherein they differed . It appears then , that the Patriarch did profess his consent with them in these things , besides the Articles of the Creed , and the satisfaction of Christ , and other more general points , viz. That the Sacrament was to be received in both kinds , that the use of marriage was not to be absolutely forbidden the Clergy , though their custom is , that they must be married before they take Orders ; besides the grand Articles of the Popes Supremacy , and the Roman Churches Infallibility ; Doth he that joyns with them in these things not in the least approve their Doctrine , but confirm the Tenets of the Roman Catholick Church ? But withall , it must be confessed , that besides that common Article of the Procession of the Spirit , wherein he disputes most earnestly ; there are five others , in which they dissented from each other , about Free will , justification by Faith , the number of Sacraments , Invocation of Saints , and Monastick life , and about these the remaining disputes were . In some of which it is easie to discern how far the right state of the question was from being apprehended , which the Lutheran Divines perceiving sent him a larger and fuller explication of their mind in a body of Divinity in Greek ; but the Patriarchs troubles coming on , Cantacuzenus deposing him too , and other businesses taking him off upon his restauration , he breaks off the Conference between them . But although he differed from them in these things , yet he was far enough from rebuking them for departing from the Roman Church , although he was desirous they should have joyned with them in the approbation of such things as were in use among themselves . And in those things in which he seems to plead for some practises in use in the Roman Church , yet there are many considerable circumstances about them , wherein they differ from the Church of Rome , as hath been manifested by many others . As in the Article of Invocation of Saints , the Patriarch saith , They do not properly Invocate Saints but God , for neither Peter nor Paul do hear us , upon which ground it is impossible to maintain the Romish Doctrine of Invocation of Saints . And in most of the other , the main difference lies in the want of a true State of the Questions between them . But is this any such great matter of admiration , that the Patriarch upon the first sight of their confession should declare his dissent from them in these things ? It is well enough known , how much Barbarism had crept into the Greek Church after their being subdued by the Turks , the means of Instruction being taken from them , and it being very rare at that time to have any Sermons at all , in so much , that one of your Calogeri being more learned then the rest , and preaching there in Lent , was thereby under great suspicion , and at last was by the Patriarch himself sent out of the way . It is therefore more to be wondered they should preserve so much of the Doctrine of Faith entire as they have done , then that any corrupt practises should prevail amongst them . The most then , which you can make of the judgement of the Patriarch Hieremias , is , that in some things he was opposite to the Protestants , as in others to the Church of Rome . But what would you have said , if any Patriarch of Constantinople had declared his consent so fully with the Church of Rome , as the Patriarch Cyril did afterwards with the Protestants ? who on that account suffered so much by the practises of the Jesuits , of whom he complains in his Epistle to Vtenbogard . And although a Faction was raised against him by Parthenius who succeeded him , yet another Parthenius succeeding him stood up in vindication of him . Since therefore such different opinions have been among them about the present Controversies of the Christian world , and there being no declared Confession of their Faith which is owned by the whole Greek Church , as to these things ; there can be no confident pronouncing what their judgement is , as to all our differences , till they have further declared themselves . PART III. Of Particular Controversies . CHAP. I. Of the Infallibility of General Councils . How far this tends to the ending Controversies . Two distinct Questions concerning the Infallibility , and Authority of General Councils . The first entered upon , with the state of the Question . That there can be no certainty of faith that General Councils are infallible ; nor that the particular decrees of any of them are so : which are largely proved . Pighius his Arguments against the Divine Institution of General Councils . The places of Scripture considered , which are brought for the Churches infallibility , and that these cannot prove that General Councils are so ; Matth. 18.20 . Acts 15.28 . particularly answered . The sense of the Fathers in their high expressions of the decrees of Councils . No consent of the Church as to their infallibility . The place of St. Austin about the amendment of former General Councils by latter , at large vindicated . No other places in S. Austin prove them infallible , but many to the contrary . General Councils cannot be infallible in the conclusion , if not in the use of the means . No such infallibility , without as immediate a revelation as the Prophets and Apostles had : taking Infallibility not for an absolute unerring power , but such as comes by a promise of Divine Assistance preserving from errour . No obligation to internal assent , but from immediate Divine Authority . Of the consistency of Faith and reason in things propounded to be believed . The suitableness of the contrary Doctrine to the Romanists principles . IF high pretences and large promises were the only things , which we ought to value any Church for , there were none comparable to the Church of Rome . For there can be nothing imagined amiss in the Christian world , but , if we believe the bills her Factours set up , she hath an Infallible cure for it . If any enquire into the grounds of Religion , they tell us , that her testimony only can give them Infallible Certainty ; if any are afraid of mistaking in opinions , they have the only Infallible Judge of Controversies to go to ; if any complain of the rents and divisions of the Christian world , they have Infallible Councils either to prevent or heal them . Who then would not run into the bosom of such a Church as this , with whom there is nothing but what is Infallible ? Who but Scepticks , Hereticks , and Schismaticks would keep out of her communion ? for what is there , men can desire more in a Church then she hath , where every thing is so Infallible ? Faith is Infallible , Tradition Infallible , the Church Infallible , the Pope Infallible , General Councils Infallible , and what not ? But who are there that more cheat and deceive the world , then those Mountebanks , who pretend to the most Infallible cures ? For , what is wanting in truth and reality must be helped out with the greater confidence ; and so we shall find it to be in these Infallible pretenders , who fall short in nothing more then where they lay the highest claim to Infallibility . Thus we have already manifested , that none have more weakened Faith , then such who have given out , that they only could make it Infallibly certain , none have brought more errours then that Church which arrogates to her self , that she is Infallible ; it now remains , that we discover that nothing is further from promoting the Churches peace , then this present pretence of the Infallibility of General Councils . For the ending of Controversies was the occasion of this dispute ; but this dispute it self hath caused more . And will do so , as long as men desire to see reason for what they do . For it cannot be expected , that men should yield their judgements up to the decrees of every such combination of men as shall call it self a General Council , unless it be evidently proved , that it is impossible they should erre in those decrees . Where there be no other wayes found out for the ending some great Controversies of the Church , but by a free and General Council , all wise men will value the Churches peace so far as not to oppose the determinations of it ; it being the highest Court of Appeal which the Church hath . But there is a great deal of difference between a submission for peace sake , in those things which are not contrary to the Fundamentals of Faith , and the assent of the mind to all the Decrees of such a Council as in themselves are Infallible . For , supposing them subject to errour , yet if that errour be not such as doth over-weigh the peace of the Church , the authority of it may be so great as to bind men to a submission to them . But where they challenge an internal assent by vertue of such decrees , there must be first proved an impossibility of erring in them , before any can look on themselves as obliged to give it . And while men contend about this , that which was mainly aimed at , is lost by these contentions , which is the Vnity and Peace of the Church . For it is a most fond and unreasonable thing , to suppose , there may not be as great divisions in the world , about the wayes to end Controversies as any other . Nay it is apparent , that the greatest Controversies this day in the Christian world are upon this Subject . It is not therefore any high challenge of Infallibility in any Person or Council which must put an end to Controversies ; for nothing but truth and reason can ever do it , and the more men pretend to unreasonable wayes of deciding them , instead of ending one they beget many . For the higher the pretences are , the more all wise men are apt to suspect them , and to require the more clear and pregnant evidence for what they say ; and if they fail in that , they have reason to question their Integrity much more then if they had contented themselves with more moderate claims . For it is not saying Councils are infallible , will make men yield the sooner to their determinations , unless you first convince their reason by proving that they are so . But if you aim at nothing but the Churches peace , you might save your selves this labour ; perswade men to be meek and humble , sober and rational , and I dare promise you the Church shall be more at quiet , than if you could prove all the Councils in the world to be Infallible . For , will that ever put a stop to the contentious Spirits of men ? will that alter their tempers , or make them delight in those things which are contrary to them ? No , you only offer to apply that Physick to the foreheads of men which should be taken inwards ; if you would endeavour to promote true piety and a Christian Spirit in the world , that would tend more to the Churches peace then all your contests about the Infallibility of General Councils . But since you are resolved to contend , the nature of my task requires me to follow you , which I shall more chearfully do , because , in pretence at least , it is for peace sake . This is then the first of those particular Controversies which this last part is designed for the handling of , and which in the consequence of it , brings in many of those particular errours , which we charge your Church with . In handling of which , I must ( as I have hitherto done ) confine my self to those lines you have drawn for me to direct my course by . Only in this first , to prevent that confusion and tediousness which your discourse is subject to , I find it necessary to alter the method somewhat . For there being two distinct Questions treated of , viz. Whether General Councils be Infallible ? and supposing them not Infallible , How far they are to be submitted to ? You have intermixed these two so together , that it will easily puzzle the Reader to see which of them it is you discourse of . And although I must confess his Lordship hath gone before you in it , as his occasion of entring into it required , yet now the points coming to be more fully examined , it will be the most natural and easie method to handle them apart , and to begin first with that of Infallibility ; for the other supposing the denial of it , it ought to follow the reasons which are given for that denial . But although I thus transpose your method , I assure you it is not with an intention to skip over any thing material , but I shall readily resume the debate of it in its proper place . In your entrance into this dispute , you give us very little hopes of any great advantage is like to come by it , because , upon your principles , it is impossible we should agree about the requisites to a General Council ; for his Lordship wishing that a lawful General Council were called to end Controversies , you presently say , A pure one to be sure , if according to his wish . Yes , too pure a great deal for you , to be willing to be tryed by . And when his Lordship professes , That an easie General General Council shall satisfie him , that is lawfully called , continued , and ended according to the same course , and under the same conditions , which General Councils observed in the Primitive Church : You say , It is too general to be Ingenuous ; you mean , such a Council would be too General for your purpose ; for , you are resolved in your following words , not to yield to such a Council wherein all excommunicate Bishops , Hereticks and Schismaticks are not excluded ; which is , in short , to tell us , You are resolved to account none General Councils , but such as are wholly of your own pary , in which the Pope shall sit as Judge , Who are admitted , and Who not ; though this be as contrary to sense and reason , as it is to the practice of the Primitive Church , in those Councils which were then called . In which I have already proved , that the Pope did not sit as President . And , as long as you hold to such unreasonable conditions , it evidently appears , That your discourses of General Councils , are meerly delusory ; and , to use your own words , Such a General Council as you would have , is a meer nothing ( as to a general and free Council ) , an empty name to amuse silly people with ; for , you require such conditions in order to it , as are destructive both to the freedom , and Being of a General Council . If therefore it be true , which you say , That morally speaking such a General Council , as Protestants would have , is impossible to be had ; it is much more true , that such a General Council as you would have , it is most unreasonable we should submit to . For , as long as you condemn all other Bishops , but those of your own , Church for out-laws , and desertors of the Catholick Church ; and give no other reason for it , but because you say so ; we thereby see , How absolutely averse you are from any Free Council , and that without any shew of justice , you condemn all others but your selves , without suffering them to plead for themselves in an Indifferent Council , where both parties may be equally heard . But it was wisely said of Pope Clement 7. that General Councils are very dangerous , when the Popes Authority is called in Question ; and this you know well enough ; for , if a Free Council were held , the Pope himself might be found with his party to be the greatest out-laws and desertors of the truly Catholick Church . But in such pack'd Councils , where the Pope sits as President , and orders all by his Legats , I shall desire you once more to ruminate over your own words ; What Rebel would ever be found criminal , if he might be allowed to be his own Judge ? But of such a kind of Council as you would have , I have spoken sufficiently in the precedent chapter . That which we are now upon , is not the Hypothesis , but the Thesis , in which we are to enquire , Whether such a General Council as you suppose , be Infallible or no ? His Lordship maintains the negative , and you the affirmative . Your Opinion then is , That the Decrees of a General Council confirmed by the Pope , are Infallible , and that the holding of this , is a piece of Catholick Faith ; and that it secures all the members of the Church from erring in any matter of Faith. For you say , It is not de fide , that the Pope without a Council is Infallible ; but , that Pope and Council together are Infallible , you all along above assert to be so ; and that the Decrees of General Councils fall nothing short in point of certainty of the Scripture it self ; and that the contrary opinion does actually expose and abandon all the adherents to it , to an unevitable wavering and uncertainty in Faith. These are your own words , in several places which I have laid together , the better to discern the state of the Question . The main thing then whereon the use of General Councils depends being , that this must be believed to be de fide , in order to the certainty of mens Faith , and prevention of errours ; that I may the better shew , how insignificant all this pretext of the Infallibility of General Councils , is , I shall first prove from your own principles , that this cannot be de fide , and then examine the grounds you insist on for the proof of their Infallibility . I begin with the First , which will sufficiently demonstrate , to how little purpose you talk of this Infallibility of Councils , for preventing uncertainty of Faith , when you cannot have any certainty of Faith at all as to that principle which must prevent it . For , supposing that really General Councils are Infallible , if you cannot give me any reasons to believe that they are so , their Decrees can have no power over my understanding , to oblige me to assent to them . And since you say , this principle must be held de fide , if there be no foundation at all for such an assent of Faith to it , I must needs be uncertain , whatever the Decrees of those Councils be upon your own principles . If you require an assent to the Decrees of Councils as Infallible , there must be an antecedent assent to this Proposition , That whatsoever Councils decree , is Infallible : As I cannot assent to any thing as Infallible , which is contained in Scripture , unless I first assent to this , That the Scripture it self is Infallible . If I therefore prove from your own principles , that none can have an assent of Faith to this Proposition , That whatever General Councils decree , is Infallible , then all your discourse comes to nothing , and men can have no more certainty by their Decrees , than if they were not Infallible . And this I shall prove by these things ; 1. That you can have no certainty of Faith ( I must use your own terms ) That the Decrees of General Councils in the general are Infallible . 2. That you can have no such certainty as to the Decrees of any General Council in particular . 1. That you cannot in the general have any certainty of Faith as to the Infallibility of General Councils . For , 1. What Infallible Testimony have you for this , without which , you say , No certainty of Faith is to be had ? It is not enough for you to say , That the Testimonies of Scripture you produce , are an Infallible Testimony for it : for that were to make the Scripture the sole Judge of this great Controversie , which you deny to be the sole Judge of any : And we must consider this as a present Controversie , which divides the Church , Whether General Councils be Infallible or no ; In order to the ending which Controversie , we desire you to assign the way to it ; for , you tell us , you have the only Infallible Way of putting an end to Controversies . Shew us therefore , which way this must be ended in the first place ? Not by Scripture , for that were to come wholly over to us ; and if it may decide this Controversie , it may as well all others . Who must then ? The Pope ? That cannot be , for we are not bound to believe him Infallible , but only with a General Council , as you tell us often . Must every one judge it by his reason ? No , this is the private Spirit , and would leave all to uncertainties . What then must do it ? the Pope and Council together ? But that is it we are enquiring for , Whether we are to believe Pope and Council , or no : And then the reason is , we must believe them , because they say so . And , Can any thing be more ridiculous , than for you to deny that the Scriptures are to be believed for themselves , and to assert , that the Pope and Council are to be believed for themselves ? If the Pope and Council then should declare their Decrees Infallible , On what account are we bound to believe them to be so ? You have found it then an excellent way for ending all other Controversies that are so far to seek for ending this ; which you cannot possibly do , without renouncing some of your principles , or an apparent contradiction . But besides this , 2. Your very manner of asserting the Infallibility of General Councils , destroyes all certainty of Faith concerning it . For , you say , That Councils are not Infallible , unless they be confirmed by the Pope : which , to the apprehension of any reasonable man , is , that they are not in and of themselves Infallible , but by vertue of the Popes confirmation . And therefore to say that Councils are Infallible , and then make that Infallibility depend upon the Popes Confirmation , is meerly delusory : for , you may as well say , that the Pope and Provincial Councils are Infallible . For , Doth the Decree receive any Infallibility from the Council , or not ? If it doth , then the Decree is Infallible , whether the Pope confirm it or no : If it doth not , then the Infallibility is wholly in the Pope : And he may as well make a Provincial Council Infallible , as a General . But , suppose it be some promise which helps the Pope in a General Council , which doth not in a lesser ( though there be no reason for that , for he is Head of the Church in one as well as in the other ) yet you cannot have any certainty of Faith , that the Council is Infallible . For , you say , The Popes Confirmation is necessary to make it Infallible , but that the Pope may infallibly confirm the Council is no matter of Faith , and therefore the Infallibility of the Council can be none . For if the Councils Infallibility depend on the Popes Confirmation , you can have no greater certainty of the Councils Infallibility , then you have that the Pope will infallibly confirm it : But you can have no certainty of Faith , that the Pope will infallibly confirm the Council ; therefore neither can you have any of the Councils Infallibility . The assumption depends upon this , that you acknowledge you can have no certainty of Faith , that the Pope is Infallible , but when he decrees in a General Council , i. e. that the Decrees by Pope and Council are Infallible . But you can have no certainty , that the Pope in the Act of confirming them , is Infallible ; for if so , you might assert it de fide , that the Pope without a Council , is Infallible . For his Act of Confirmation is distinct from that Infallibility which lyes in the Decrees , which have passed both Pope and Council . So that if the Infallibility of Councils lyes wholly in the Popes Confirmation , and you can have no certainty of Faith of the Popes Infallibility , you can have no certainty of Faith of the Infallibility of General Councils . But , suppose we should grant , that you might in general be certain of the Infallibility of General Councils , when we come to instance in any one of them , you can have no certainty of Faith , as to the Infallibility of the Decrees of it . For you can have no such certainty , that this was a lawful General Council , that it passed such Decrees , that it proceeded lawfully in passing them , and that this is the certain meaning of them ; and yet all these are necessary in order to the believing those Decrees to be Infallible , with such a Faith as you call Divine . 1. You can have no certainty of Faith , that this was a lawful General Council ; for that depends upon such things which you cannot say are de fide , as , that the Bishops in the Council , are lawful Bishops , that the Pope who confirms them is a lawful Pope ; for , by your own explication afterwards of your Doctrine , concerning the intention of the Priest , you say , it can be but a moral certainty , and that , you contend elsewhere , can be no ground for a Divine Faith. Besides , you can have no more certainty , that is a lawful Council , whose Decrees you assent to , than you have , that those Bishops who are excluded , are Hereticks or Schismaticks ; but , Can you be certain of that with Divine Faith ? and , Whereon is that Faith built ? 2. You can have no such kind of certainty , of what Decrees were passed by them , and whether those Decrees were at all confirmed by the Pope or no ? For Bellarmin confesseth , No other certainty can be had of that , than that whereby we believe there were such persons as Cicero , or Julius Caesar ; and condemns Vega for saying , The certainty of it depends upon the definitions of the Council it self . Now this at the best , being but a humane or moral certainty , you must contradict your self , if you say , That a Divine Faith may be built upon it . 3. What certainty can you have , that may be a ground for Faith , that the Council hath proceeded lawfully ; for , in case he doth not , your own Authours say , It may not be Infallible : For so Bellarmin answers in the case of the Council of Chalcedon , Concilium legitimum posse errare in his quae non legitimè agit , that a lawful Council may erre , in case it doth not proceed lawfully . Now , Who can assure one , that there have been no practices at all used to bring off some men to give their Votes with them ? It is hard to conceive such a body of men , wherein some few do not sway and govern all the rest , and in that case , Can any one say , that it was the Spirit of God which governed the Council ? Especially if one Preside in the Council , who hath authority and power above all the rest , and that others in the Council have any dependence on him ; Who can then expect that freedom which is requisite to a General Council ? The Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia , are condemned ; because , though there were a very great number of Bishops , yet some out-witted all the rest , and , by their subtilty , brought them to subscribe that confession of Faith , which Pope Liberius afterwards confirmed by his own subscription . And if so great a Council as this , must be reprobated on that account ; Why not all others , where there are suspicions of the same arts and subtilties ? Nay , How can a man be sure there have not been such arts used in Councils ? for it is not to be expected , that such things should be much known to the world , they being privately managed with the greatest secrecy that may be . And yet it is in this case necessary to know , that the Council proceeded with all simplicity and plainness ; for otherwise their determinations may not be Infallible . In order to which nothing is more requisite than that there be no one , which hath any great Authority over them : For if the second Council of Ephesus , lawfully summoned , and the Popes Legats being present , be therefore rejected , because Dioscorus the Patriarch of Alexandria did over-rule the rest ; What assurance can we have of any fair dealing , where the Pope himself presides , who hath more waies both to terrifie and oblige , than ever Dioscorus could have ? Besides , set aside this over-awing by some potent person , suppose some active and subtil men perceiving how things are like to go in a Council , use their wits to bring off some men , not of so deep reach as others , to their own party , and it may be by the accession of a small number , they over-vote the rest ; Must we presently say , That the Spirit of God went off with those few men to the other party ? for the Decrees of Councils going by Votes , and those Votes by the major part ; Who doth not see , how easie it is ( when it stands , it may be , upon a few Votes ) to fetch off a number to the other side . And I do not know , where the Spirit of God hath promised , that where three or four men may so much alter the Decrees of a General Council , those Decrees , if they pass the major part , shall be infallible , and as certain as the Scripture . To be sure then , there ought to be great confidence of the simplicity of the Councils proceedings where a man must assent to them as Infallible : and to that end men must be assured that they came thither without any prejudice upon their minds ; that when they were there , they sought nothing but the Truth and the Honour of Christ ; or else , to be sure , they are not gathered in his name , and if not so , they cannot expect he should be in the midst of them . Now let any one who understands the world , and humane nature , see if he can perswade himself , that a Council can have no prejudices or by-ends upon them , that nothing of interest and reputation , may sway upon them when they are met there , that there shall be no heats or contentions among them ; for if there be , let him then see , Whether he can believe them to be Infallible ? If you say , In a matter so highly concerning the Church , the Spirit of God will not suffer them to erre : You must first shew , where the Spirit of God hath promised this ; and then , if you could , that those promises do not suppose the performance of some conditions , which if they neglect , they may want the effect of them . In which case , there can be no greater assurance of the Spirit 's presence , than there is of performance of the conditions , which is the thing I now aim at . Besides all which , we have known , that when it hath been a matter of as great concernment to the Church , as any of those you can fancy , great numbers of Bishops at Sirmium , Seleucia , Ariminum , Ephesus , have miscarried , and decreed that which hath been judged Heresie by the Church . 4. Suppose men could be assured of the proceedings of the Council , yet what certainty of Faith can be had of the meaning of those decrees ? for we see they are as lyable to many interpretations as any other writings . If the Scriptures cannot put an end to Controversies on that account , how can General Councils do it ? when their decrees are as lyable to a private sense and wrong interpretation as the Scriptures are : Nay much more , for we have many other places to compare , the help of original tongues , and the consent of the Primitive Church to understand Scriptures by : when the Decrees of Councils are many times purposely framed in general terms , and with ambiguous expressions to give satisfaction to some dissenting parties then in the Council . Who knows not , what disputes have been raised about the sense of some of the Decrees of the Council of Trent ? about which the several parties neither are , nor are like to be , agreed . Nay , Who is so unacquainted with the proceedings of that Council , as not to understand how much care was taken in many of the decrees to pass them in such general terms , that each party might find their sense in them . How fearful were they of declaring themselves , for fear of disobliging a particular party ? and are these the effects of an Infallible Spirit ? Since we know it hath been thus in some Councils , Who dares venture his faith , it hath not been so in others ? Who dare be confident , this or that is the meaning of such a Decree , when it may be capable of several senses ? Was it a sign , that Council was Infallible , that was afraid to speak out in a case of great consequence and necessity in the Church ? the Council of Trent , I mean , in determining , That due honour be given to Images , without assigning what that due honour was , which was the most needful of all to be done . If the Decrees of Councils were not ambiguous , what mean so many disputes still about them as are in the world ? And when at last , you say , That the Councils are Infallible when the Pope confirms them , you say nothing more then if we should say , That Councils are Infallible when Scripture confirms them . Nay , you say nothing near so much ; for all are agreed , that Scriptures are Infallible , but many among your selves are far from believing , that the Pope is Infallible . And therefore we are much nearer ending Controversies , in saying , Councils confirmed by Scripture are Infallible , than you are in saying , Councils confirmed by the Pope are so . These things being thus in the General premised , we come now to the particular handling this Controversie between his Lordship and you . And for the greater clearness of proceeding , he premises some things by way of consideration ; whereof the first is , That all the power an Oecumenical Council hath to determine , and all the assistance it hath , not to err in that determination , is all from the Vniversal Body of the Church , whose representative it is . For the Government of the Church being not Monarchical , but as Christ is head , this principle is inviolable in nature ; Every body collective , that represents , receives power and priviledges , from the body which is represented , else a representation might have force without the thing it represents ; which cannot be . So , there is no power in the Council , no assistance to it , but what is in and to the Church . But withall his Lordship adds , That the representative body cannot be so free from errour as the whole Church , because in all such assemblies many able and sufficient men being left out , they which are present may miss or misapply that reason and ground upon which the determination is principally to rest . By which means the representative body may err , whereas the represented , by vertue of those members which saw and knew the ground , may hold the principle inviolated . All the Answer which you return to this , is , That his supposition of the Churches not being Monarchical , is confuted already , ( and I say , whatever you have produced is Answered already ) and that the power and assistance of General Councils cannot possibly be communicated to them by the Church , but must proceed from the same fountain now , it did in the Apostles time , viz. the direction of the Holy Ghost ; this spiritual power not being of humane , but divine Institution ; and not proceeding so much from the abilities of the persons , as from the co-operation of the Holy Spirit with them . To which I reply , that all this had need be more then thus barely asserted : it being confessed by your selves ( as his Lordship shews ) that a General Council is a representative of the whole Church , you ought to have shewed us the Divine Institution of this Representative , and the promises made to it under that notion , or else we may still say with his Lordship , That all the power and assistance it hath , is by vertue of that body which it represents . But I need not in this urge the Arguments of Protestants against you ; for in this , as in most other Controversies , we have enough from those of your own party to oppose against these affirmations of yours . For Albertus Pighius not only asserts , but proves , that General Councils are not of divine , but humane institution , arising from a dictate of right reason ; that matters of doubt may be better debated by many prudent and experienced persons then by a few . So that as the supream authority for administration of affairs belongs to one , so it is most agreeable to right reason , that debates should be by many , This he proves at large , that nothing but humane reason is the foundation of Councils in the Church ; for , saith he , In Scripturis Canonicis nullum de iis verbum est ; nec ex Apostolorum institutione , speciale quicquam de illis accepit illa primitiva Christi Ecclesia . There is not a word of them in Scripture , neither did the primitive Church receive any particular order from the Apostles concerning them : which he from thence proves , because in all the time of the primitive Church till the Nicene Council , there is no mention at all of them . And at that time it did not receive any new revelation concerning the celebrating General Councils , but the Emperour Constantines zeal for the peace of the Church was the first cause and original of them . From whence he concludes that they have no supernatural or divine Institution , sed prorsus humanam , but altogether humane : for they are , saith he , The invention of Constantine sometimes useful , but not at all necessary . This man speaks intelligibly , and not like those who jumble Pope and Council together to make something Infallible between them . For he sayes , It is the better way by far to go immediately to the Apostolical See and consult that , as the Infallible Oracle , in all doubts of Faith. And very honestly tells us , That he believes Constantine was ignorant of that priviledge of the Holy See , when he first instituted General Councils . Than which nothing could be spoken truer . If you have then nothing more to say for the Divine Institution of General Councils , then what you have acquainted us with , it would be much more wisedom in you to contend with Pighius for the Popes Infallibility , and let that of General Councils shift for it self . His Lordships second Consideration you admit of , viz. That though the Act which is hammered out by many together , must needs be perfecter , then that which is but the child of one mans sufficiency ; yet this cannot be Infallible , unless it be from some special assistance of the Holy Ghost . Therefore omitting your very impertinent addition to this consideration , viz. So as to make its Decrees Infallible , ( which is the thing in question ) : We proceed to the third ; which is , That the Assistance of the Holy Ghost is without errour , which ( saith he ) is no question ; and as little that a Council hath it . But the doubt that troubles , is , whether all assistance of the Holy Ghost be afforded in such a high manner , as to cause all the definitions of a Council in matters fundamental in the Faith , and in remote deductions from it , to be alike Infallible . From this last expression you would very subtilly infer contrary to his Lordships design , That he granted General Councils to be Infallible in deductions , as well as fundamentals , but not to be alike Infallible : whereas it is plain , his Lordship means no more by alike Infallible , then , Whether the assistance be alike in both to make them Infallible . And this you might easily perceive , but it would have prevented your cavil about a graduated Infallibility ; which I know none assert but your self . This Consideration brings on the main of the battel , in those texts of Scripture , which are most insisted on to prove the Infallibility of General Councils , viz. John 16.13 . I will send you the Spirit of Truth and he shall lead you into all Truth . John 14.16 . This Spirit shall abide with you for ever . Matth. 28.20 . Behold I am with you to the end of the world . Matth. 16.18 . The founding of the Church upon the Rock against which the gates of hell shall not prevail . Luke 22.32 . Christs prayer for St. Peter , that his Faith should not fail . Matth. 18.20 . Where two or three are gathered together in my Name , I will be in the midst of them . Acts 15.28 . It seemed good to the Holy Ghost , and to us . All which places ( except the two last ) have been already examined as far as concerns any promise of Infallibility in the questions concerning the Churches and the Popes Infallibility : and there being no reason at all given , why any Infallibility at all is promised by them to the Church after the Apostles times , it may seem wholly needless to bestow a particular consideration again upon all of them . For it is evident in those places , all your drift and design , is only to prove a promise of Infallibility in the Church , and to the Councils only by vertue of that . But having at large before shewed , that no such thing can be inferred from these or any other places , that which is built upon it , is wholly taken away too . For the only pretence that you have , why Councils should be proved hence Infallible , is , because the Church hath Infallibility promised by these texts , which must be very well proved , and much better then you have done , either here , or elsewhere , before the other can be deduced from hence . And yet supposing I should grant , that Infallibility was promised to the Church , I see no such necessary consequence from thence , that General Councils must be Infallible : unless you can prove from Scripture , that the Infallibility of the Church is meant of the Church representative and not diffusive ; which is a new task which you have not yet undertaken . For it is not enough to say , That the body of the Church is bound to believe and profess the doctrine taught by the representative , and therefore the representative must be Infallible , unless you could first prove , that there is a necessity of some continued Infallible teaching by the Church representative : which I despair of ever seeing done . I am so far therefore from thinking as you do , That these texts are sufficiently clear in themselves to prove the Infallibility of General Councils , that I believe a Philosopher might hear them repeated a hundred times over without ever imagining any such thing as a General Council , much less concluding thence , that they are Infallible . But because you again cavil with another expression of his Lordships , in that he saith , That no one of them doth infer , much less inforce Infallibility ; from whence you not infer but inforce this consequence , that he was loath to say all of them together did not ; I shall therefore give you his Lordships Answer from all of them together . Which is likewise sufficient for every one of them . And for all the places together , saith he , weigh them with indifferency , and either they speak of the Church ( including the Apostles ) as all of them do ; and then all grant the voyce of the Church is Gods voyce Divine and Infallible . Or else they are general unlimited , and appliable to private assemblies as well as General Councils , which none grant to be Infallible , but some mad Enthusiasts . Or else they are limited , not simply to all truth , but all necessary to salvation ; in which I shall easily grant a General Council cannot err , suffering it self to be led by this Spirit of Truth in Scripture , and not taking upon it to lead both the Scripture and the Spirit . For , suppose these places or any other did promise assistance even to Infallibility , yet they granted it not to every General Council , but to the Catholick body of the Church it self , and if it be in the whole Church principally , then is it in a General Council but by consequent , as the Council represents the whole . And that which belongs to a thing by consequent , doth not otherwise , nor longer , belong unto it , then it consents and cleaves to that , upon which it is a consequent . And therefore a General Council hath not this assistance , but as it keeps to the whole Church and Spouse of Christ , whose it is to hear his Word and determine by it . And therefore if a General Council will go out of the Churches way , it may easily go without the Churches truth . Which words of his , contain so full an Answer to all these places together , that till that be taken off there is no necessity at all to descend to the particular places , especially those which are acknowledged by your selves to speak primarily of the Churches Infallibility . Yet for your satisfaction ( more than any intelligent Readers ) I shall add somewhat further , to shew the impertinency of the former places , and then consider the force of the two last , which have not yet been handled . 1. There can be nothing drawn from promises made to the diffusive body , for the benefit of the representative , unless the maker of those promises did institute that representation . Therefore , supposing that Infallibility were by these promises bestowed upon the Catholick Church , yet you cannot thence inferr that it belongs to a General Council , unless you prove that Christ did appoint a General Council to represent the Church , and in that representation to be Infallible . For this Infallibility coming meerly by promise , it belongs only to those to whom the promise is made , and in that capacity in which it is made to it . For , Spiritual gifts are not bequeathable to Heirs , nor can be made over to Assigns ; if the Church be promised Infallibility , she cannot pass away the gift of it to her Assigns in a General Council , unless that power of devolution be contained in the Original Grant. For she can give no more then is in her power to bestow ; but this Infallibility being out of her disposal , the utmost that can be given to a General Council is a power to oblige the Church by the acts of it , which falls much short of Infallibility . Besides , this representation of the Church by a General Council is a thing not so evident from whence it should come , that from a promise made to one it must necessarily be understood of the other . For , as Pighius sayes , It cannot be demonstrated from Theological grounds , that a General Council which is so far from being the whole Church , that it is not a thousandth part of it , should represent the whole Church . For either , saith he , it hath this from Christ or from the Church : but they cannot produce one tittle from Scripture , where Christ hath conveyed over the power and authority of the whole Church to a hundred or two hundred Bishops . If they say , It is from the Church ; there are two things to be shewed , first , that it is done ; and secondly , that it is de jure or ought to be so done . First , it can never be shewed , that such a thing ever was done by the Vniversal Church ; for if it were , it must either be by some formal act of the Church or by a tacit consent . It could not be by any formal act of the Church ; For then there must be some such act of the Vniversal Church , preceding the being of any General Council ; for by that act they receive their Commission to appear in behalf of the Vniversal Church . And this could not be done in a General Council , because that is not pretended to be the whole Church but only to represent it : and therefore it must have this power to represent the Church by something antecedent to its being . Else it would only arrogate this power to it self without any act of the Church in order to it . Now that the Vniversal Church did ever agree in any such act , is utterly impossible to be demonstrated , either that it could be , or that it was . Yet such a delegation to a General Council must be supposed in order to its representation of the whole Church ; and this delegation must not only be before the first General Council , but , for all that I can see , before every one . For how can the Church by its act in one age bind the Church in all ages succeeding to the acts of those several Councils which shall be chosen afterwards ? If it be said , That such a formal act is not necessary , but the tacit consent of the whole Church is sufficient for it : then such a consent of the Church must be made evident , by which , they did devolve over the power of the whole Church to such a representative . And all those must consent in that act whose power the Council pretends to have , and so it cannot be sufficient to say , That those who choose Bishops for the Council do it ; for then they could only represent those who chose them , and so their authority will fall much short of that of the whole Church . But suppose such a thing were done by the whole Church , of which no footsteps at all appear , we must further enquire by what right or authority this is done , for the authority of the Church being given it by Christ , it cannot be given from it self without his commission for doing it . Which if we stay till it can be produced in this case , we may stay long enough before we see any such Infallible Representative of the Vniversal Church . The utmost then , that can be supposed in this case , is , that the parts of the Church may voluntarily consent to accept of the decrees of such a Council ; and by that voluntary act , or by the Supream authority injoyning it , such decrees may become obligatory . But what is this to an Infallibility in the Council because it represents the whole Church ? For neither is there evidence enough for such a representation , neither , if there were , could any priviledge of that nature belong to the representative body , because of any promise made to the diffusive body of the Church . 2. What belongs to the representative body of the Church by vertue of a promise made to the diffusive , can in no other sense be understood of the representative , then as it belongs to the diffusive . Because no further right can be derived from any then they had themselves . Therefore supposing a promise of Infallibility made to the Church , it is necessary to know in what way and manner that promise belongs to it ; for in no other way and manner can it belong to the Council which represents it . If therefore the Churches Infallibility lyes only in Fundamentals , the Councils Infallibility can extend no further . If the Churches Infallibility doth not imply , that all the Church or the major part should be Infallible , but that though the major part err , yet all the Church shall not , then neither can it be true of a General Council , that all , or the major part should be Infallible , but only that there should be no such General Council , wherein all the Bishops should erre . But then this is utterly destructive to the Infallibility of the Decrees of General Councils , for those must pass by the major part of the Votes : Which Canus , one of the acutest of our adversaries , was sensible of , and grants , that the major part in a General Council may erre , and the lesser part hold the truth ; but then , he saith , That the Pope is not bound to follow the major part . Which is expresly to take away any pretext of Infallibility from the Decrees of the Council , and place it wholly in the Pope : And , Why may not then the Pope and a Provincial Council be as Infallible , as the Pope and the lesser part of a General Council ? What then do the promises of Infallibility to the Council signifie , if the major part may definitively erre ? And therefore Bellarmin likes not this Answer , as being too plain and open , but gives another as destructive to the Councils Infallibility , as this is . Which is , that in case the major part doth resist the better in a General Council , as in that of Ariminum , and the second at Ephesus , yet that it cannot conquer it . How so ? Doth it not conquer it when the Decrees are passed by the major part ? No , saith he , for these Decrees are afterwards made void . Very good : But then , I suppose in the Council , the major part did conquer , although not after . But by whom are they made void ? By him to whom it belongs to confirm his Brethren , saith Bellarmin . Well , but the skill is , to know who that is in this case , who can reverse the Decree of the representative body of the Church under the plea of confirming his Brethren ? If it be the Pope , Who reversed the Decrees of the Council of Sirmium , to which the Pope subscribed ? And for that of Ariminum and Selencia , Hilary did more to reverse it , than ever the Pope did . Therefore others say , It is in the Churches power to make void the Decrees of General Councils , as she did the Decrees of the Arrian Councils . If so , then we plainly see , the Infallibility doth not lye in the representative , but in the diffusive body of the Church still ; if that hath the power to avoid and repeal the Decrees of General Councils . So that all the Infallibility of Councils is meerly probationary , and stands to the good liking and consent of the d●ffusive body of the Church . By which means the Decrees of a Provincial Council being accepted by the Church , are as Infallible as of a General . But in all these waies , there is no proper Infallibility at all in the major part of a General Council , but it wholly lyes either in the Pope , or in the diffusive body of the Church still . 3. If these places which mention a promise of Infallibility to the Church , must imply the Infallibility of General Councils , as the Churches representative , then it will thence follow , that the Decrees of General Councils are Infallible , whether the Pope confirm them or no. For the Infallibility is not promised at all mediante Papâ , but virtute Ecclesiae ; for if they be infallible as representing the Church , they are Infallible , whether there be any Pope or no : for the Pope doth not make them more represent the Church than they did before . And this is very well understood and proved by those , who from these promises to the Church , and from that Infallibility consequent upon it ( by their adversaries confession ) to a General Council , do inferr the Councils Authority to be above the Popes . Which is a just and necessary consequence from this assertion , That the priviledges of the Vniversal Church , are by vertue of its representation in a General Council . Which Doctrine was asserted by the Councils of Constance , and Basil , and by the Sorbonne Doctors , till their being Jesuited of late . Who have therefore asserted , that it might be as lawful to call in question the Decrees of the Council of Trent , as of those two Councils . And whereas their adversaries object , That this is not de fide : they answer , It is impossible but that it should be de fide , since it is decreed by General Councils . For , say they , Were the Fathers at Constance and Basil , acted by any other Spirit , than those at Nicaea , and Ephesus ? Why may not then the Council of Trent be opposed as well as them ? For if there be any difference , they had much the advantage . In the Council of Constance ( say they ) two Popes were present , all the Cardinals , two Patriarchs of Constantinople , and Antioch , and the Emperour himself , and the Legats of all Christian Princes ; and besides all this , it was confirmed by Pope Martin , and the Acts of Confirmation extant in the 45. Session . And so the Council of Basil was begun , according to the Decrees of the Councils of Constance and Pisa , and by vertue of the Bulls of Martin and Eugenius ; and the Popes Legats were presidents in it . So that if General Councils be Infallible , it must be de fide Catholicâ , that their Authority is above the Pope's : And if so , their Infallibility cannot depend upon his Confirmation . Now , if we search into the grounds on which they build this power of General Councils independently on the Pope , we shall find they derive it wholly from those places of Scripture , which speak so much concerning the Church and Councils , as is agreed on both sides . And therefore Aeneas Sylvius ( afterwards Pius 2. ) sayes , That is not the less de fide , because it is contradicted by some , since it is founded on the promises of Christ concerning the Church . Since therefore the Pope himself is but Filius Ecclesiae , and the Church is Sponsa Christi ; they say , It is unreasonable that the Son of the Church should not be subject to the Spouse of Christ. If therefore these promises concerning the Church , inferr an Infallibility in it , and that Infallibility be in a General Council , as representing the Church ; it follows thence , that Councils must be in themselves Infallible , whether confirmed by the Pope or no. And we may see , how little this Opinion of Infallibility of General Councils is like to stand between them , by the Answers which are given by those of the other party , who mak●●he Popes Confirmation necessary to the Infallibility of the Council . For Canus expresly saith , That the Council is said to be Infallible in no other sense than the Church is , i. e. in those things wherein all agreed , and not the major part . Bellarmin likes not this ; For , saith he , if the major part of the Council erre , the Council must of necessity erre ; for that which properly belongs to the Council , is , Passing judgement in matter of Faith , or making Decrees : now , if that were not the lawful Decree of the Council , which is made by the major part , there never could be a lawful Decree , for none passes without some dissenting : and therefore he denies that the Council doth fully represent the Church without the Pope . So that on both sides we see , how pregnant these proofs are for the Councils Infallibility , when one saith , That if they be understood of the Church , the Councils Infallibility doth not want the Popes Confirmation , the other to make the Popes Confirmation necessary , denies such an absolute representation of the Church in the Council . If then the Council doth represent the Church , it is Infallible , although not confirmed by the Pope , if it doth not , then the promises made to the Church cannot belong to the General Council . Thus I have shewed you , how far these places concerning ( as you say ) the Infallibility of the Church , are , from proving the Infallibility of General Councils . But , though these general places concerning the Church , may not so clearly prove the Infallibility of General Councils , yet , you say , There are some particular places to this purpose . Which are , Mat. 18.20 . and Act. 15.28 . Which not having been handled already , I must follow you more closely in the examination of them . The first place is , Mat. 18.20 . Where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them . The substance of the argument from this place , his Lordship thus repeats from Bellarmin . The strength of the argument is not taken from these words alone , but as they are continued with the former , and that the argument is drawn à minori ad majus , from the less to the greater , thus . If two or three gathered in my name , do alwaies obtain that which they ask at Gods hands , viz. wisdom and knowledge of those things which are necessary for them : How much more shall all the Bishops gathered together in Council , alwaies obtain wisdom and knowledge , to judge those things , which belong to the direction of the whole Church ? To which his Lordship answers , That there is very little strength in these words , either considered alone , being generally interpreted by the Fathers , of consent in prayer , or with the argument à minori ad majus , 1. Because , though that argument hold in natural or necessary things , yet not in voluntary or promised things , or things which depend upon their institution . 2. Because it follows not , but where , and so far as , the thing upon which the argument is founded , agrees to the less : Now this Infallibility doth not belong to the lesser Congregation , and therefore cannot be inferred as to the greater . 3. Because it depends upon conditions here supposed of being gathered together in the name of Christ , and therefore supposing Infallibility promised these conditions here implied , must be known before such a Congregation can be known to be Infallible . 4. Because Christs promise of presence in the midst of them , is only to grant , what he shall find to be fit for them , not infallibly whatsoever they shall think fit to ask for themselves . 5. Because Gregory de Valentiâ and Stapleton confess , that this place doth not properly belong to prove an Infallible certainty of any sentence in which more agree in the name of Christ , but to the efficacy of consent for obtaining that which more shall pray for in the name of Christ , if at least that be for their souls health . For else it would hence follow , that not only the definition of a General Council , but even of a Provincial ; nay , of two or three Bishops gathered together , is valid , and that without the Popes consent . The utmost I can make of your reply to these Answers , lyes in this , That you grant that primarily and directly our Saviour doth not intend that particular Infallibility , and this is that which Gregory and Stapleton assert ; but only that he signified in general , that he would be present with his Church , and all faithful people gathered together in his name , so often , and so far , as their necessities required his presence , they duly imploring it . But yet the argument holds for the Infallibility of General Councils , and not National or Provincial , because the necessities of the Church require one , and not the other : and that it will follow à minori ad majus , in things promised , as well as natural , where the motive is increased , and neither goodness nor power wanting in the promiser . But all this depends on a false supposition , viz. that there is a necessity of Infallibility to continue in the Church , and that all persons are bound to believe the Decrees of the Councils to be the Infallible Oracles of truth : but we say , neither of these are necessary in the Church , and therefore you have no ground to extend this promise of Christs presence to the Infallibility of Councils . For you are not to extend the power and goodness of Christ as far as you shall judge fitting , but as far only as he hath promised to extend it . For otherwise it would be far more for the peace and unity of the Church , if every particular Congregation had this Infallibility , than if only General Councils had it : Because by that means , many disputes about the authority , calling , and proceedings of General Councils would be prevented : Nay , it might be extended much further , for by this argument from the goodness and power of Christ , you might , for all that I can see , inferr with more force , that every true Christian should be Infallible , and so there be no need of any Councils at all . For , whatever argument you can produce , why Christ's goodness should extend to make Councils Infallible , it will much more hold as to the other ; for the peace , and unity of the Church would be far better secured this way . If you say that experience shews , Christ never intended this by the errours of particular men in all ages : To the same purpose we answer you as to Councils , that large experience shews , that when Bishops have solemnly met in Council , they have been grosly deceived ; as you confess in all the Arrian Councils . If your argument would have ever held from the power and goodness of Christ ; Would it not have held at that time , when so great a matter of Faith was under debate ? If Christ therefore suffered so many Bishops so grosly to erre , in a matter of such importance , wherein the Church was so highly concerned , How can you inferr from his power and goodness , that he will never suffer General Councils to erre . If you answer , That these erred for not observing the conditions requisite in order to Christs hearing them , viz. that they were not met in the name of Christ , did not come without prejudice , nor rely on Divine Assistance . I pray take the same Answer as to all other Councils , that we cannot know that Christ hears them , or that they are Infallible , till we are assured of their performance of the conditions requisite in order to that Infallibility . And when you can assure us , that such a Council met together in the name of Christ , and came meerly with a desire to find out truth , and relyed wholly on his assistance for it , we do not so much distrust the power and goodness of Christ , as to think he will suffer them to be deceived . For we know upon those conditions he will not suffer any good man to erre , much less an Assembly of them met in a General Council . But here you have the hardest task of all lying upon you , which is , to prove that a General Council hath observed all these conditions , without which nothing can be inferred from this place , as to Christs being in any sense in the midst of them . The last place mentioned for the Infallibility of General Councils , is that , Act. 15.28 . Where the Apostles say of themselves , and the Council held by them ; It seems good to the Holy Ghost , and to us . And , saith his Lordship , they might well say it . For they had infallibly the assistance of the Holy Ghost , and kept close to his direction . But there is a great deal of difference between them and succeeding Councils , who never arrogated this to their definitions , though they presumed of the assistance of the Holy Ghost ; and though that form might be used , yet they did not assume such an Infallibility to themselves , as the Apostles had . And therefore it is little less than blasphemy in Stapleton , to say , That the Decrees of Councils are the very Oracles of the Holy Ghost . And , that all Councils are not so Infallible , as was this of the Apostles , nor the causes handled in them , as there they were , is manifest by the ingenuous confession of Ferus to that purpose . This is the substance of his Lordships Answer to this place . Which you think to take off by saying , That there 's no essential difference between the certainty of the things determined by the Apostles , and those decided by a General Council , confirmed by the Roman Bishop : and though after-Councils use not the same expression in terms , yet they do it in effect , by enjoyning the belief of their decisions under the pain of Anathema . If this be the meaning of the Anathema's of Councils , there had need indeed be no great difference between the Apostles Decrees , and theirs . But this had need be very well proved ; and so it is by you : for you produce several expressions of Cyril , Athanasius , Austin , Leo , Gregory , and some others ( out of Bellarmin ) in which they magnifie the Decrees of General Councils , calling them a Divine Oracle , a Sentence inspired by the Holy Ghost , not to be retracted , and some others to the same purpose , by which you vindicate Stapleton , and tell us , he said no more than the Fathers had done before him . Yet all this is far from any vindication of Stapleton , or proving your assertion as to the equal certainty of the Decrees of Councils , and of the Apostles . For the ground of all those expressions , and several others of the same nature , was not the supposition of any inherent Infallibility in the Decrees of General Councils , but their great assurance of the truth of that Doctrine , which was determined by those first General Councils . For although I am far enough from believing the Council of Trent Infallible , yet if that had determined the same points of Faith , which were determined in the first four General Councils , and nothing else ; I might have said , That the Decree of that Council was a Holy and Divine Oracle , a Sentence inspired by the Holy Ghost , &c. not that I thought the Council in the least Infallible , in determining these things ; but that they were of themselves Divine Truths , which the Council determined . And in this sense Athanasius might well term the definition of the Nicene-Council against Arius , the word of our Lord which endureth for ever ; and Constantine stile it a coelestial mandate ; and Gregory might reverence the four first Councils , as the four Gospels ( though Bellarmin tells you , that expression must be taken in a qualified sense ) yet all these , and any other of a like nature , I say , import no more than that they were fully assured , the matters decreed by them , were revealed by God in his Word , and not that they believed that they became such holy and divine Oracles , meerly by the Councils definition . For the contrary might be abundantly manifested by many expressions in them quite to another purpose : and if , instead of all the rest , you will but read Athanasius and Hilary concerning Councils , you will find your self strangely deceived , if you believed they ever thought them Infallible . What you add afterwards , that it is sufficient that there be a real Infallibility , though not like to that of the Apostles , will not be sufficient for me , till you can shew me the degrees of Infallibility ; for , I will promise you , if you can once prove that Councils are really Infallible , I shall not stick to say , That they are alike Infallible with the Apostles . As for your discarding Ferus as a prohibited Authour , it only shews the great integrity of the man , who spoke too much truth to be born by the tender ears of the Roman Inquisition . Before I had proceeded any further , I had thought ( because of a former promise ) to have looked back to the place , where you speak in vindication of the decretal Epistles ; but because you only referr to Turrianus his defence of them , I shall only return you an equal courtesie , and referr you to the abundantly sufficient Answer to him by David Blondel . One would have thought you should have been ashamed of so notorious an imposture as those decretal Epistles are ; but we see , what shifts a bad cause puts you upon , that such men as Ferus , Cassander , Erasmus , are under an Index Expurgatorius , but the decretal Epistles must be still justified ; but he that doth not see the reasons of these proceedings , wants a greater Index Expurgatorius for his brains , than ever they did for their Books . We return therefore to our present subject , and having manifested , how far the Infallibility of General Councils is from being grounded on the veracity of Divine promises , as you pretend without ground ; we now proceed to the consent of the Church , as to this subject : which his Lordship speaks to in the next Consideration . Which is , That all agree that the Church in general can never err from the Faith necessary to salvation ; but there is not the like consent that General Councils cannot err . Whether Waldensis asserting , that General Councils may err , speak of such Councils as are accounted unlawful or no , is not much material ; since , as his Lordship sayes , The Fathers having to do with so many Hereticks , and so many of them opposing Church authority , did never in the condemnation of those Hereticks utter this proposition , That a General Council cannot err . And supposing that no General Council had erred in any matter of moment to this day , which will not be found true , yet this would not have followed , that it is therefore Infallible and cannot err . And to shew that St. Augustin puts a manifest difference between the rules of Scripture and the definitions of men , he produceth that noted place in him , wherein he so fully asserts the prerogative of Scripture above all the writings of men or definitions of Councils : Which , because it will be often refer'd to , I have cited at large in the margin , but his Lordship gives the sum of it in these words . That whatsoever is found written in Scripture , may neither be doubted nor disputed , whether it be true or right . But the letters of Bishops may not only be disputed , but corrected by Bishops that are more learned and wise then they , or by National Councils ; and National Councils , by Plenary or General . And even Plenary Councils themselves may be amended , the former by the latter . From whence he inferrs , That it seems it was no news with St. Austin , that a General Council might err , and therefore be inferiour to the Scripture , which may neither be doubted nor disputed , where it affirms . And if it be so with the definition of a Council too , where is then the Scriptures Prerogative ? But his Lordship adds , That there is much shifting about this place , but it cannot be wraft off . And therefore undertakes punctually to answer all the evasions of Stapleton and Bellarmin , who have taken most pains about it . But before you come to particular answers , you are resolved to make your way through them , by a more desperate attempt : which is , to prove that it cannot be St. Austins meaning in this place , that general Councils may err in their definitions of Faith , because then St. Austin must contradict himself , because he delivers the contrary in other places . This is indeed to the purpose , if you go through with your undertaking ; but we must examine the places ; The first is l. 1. c. 7. de baptism . c. Donatist . where you say , he expresly teacheth , that no doubt ought to be made of what is by full decree established in a General Council . But here a great doubt may justly be made , Whether ever you searched this place or no ; for if you had , you would have had little heart to produce it to this purpose . For St. Augustin is there giving an account , why he would not insist upon any humane authorities , but bring certain evidence out of Scripture for what he said ; and the reason he gives for it , is , because in the former times of the Church before the Schism of Donatus brake forth , the Bishops and particular Councils did differ from each other about the Question in hand , viz. rebaptizing Hereticks , untill that by a General Council of the whole world , that which was most soundly held etiam remotis dubitationibus firmaretur , was confirmed the disputes being taken away . The utmost that can be drawn hence , is , that when this Controversie was decided by a General Council , the disputes were ended among the Catholick Bishops . But by what arts can you hence draw , that St. Austin thought the Council Infallible in its definitions ? When the business came to be argued in a free Council by the dissenting parties , and they more fully understood each other , and agreed upon one sentence , St. Austin sayes the former doubts were taken off : that is , the reasons and Scriptures produced on the other side satisfied them : but he doth not say , that no doubt is to be made of what is by full Decree established in a General Council ; but , that no doubts were made after it . But if you say , There could be no agreement unless the Councils definition were supposed Infallible , you speak that which is contrary to the sense and experience of the world ; and even of that general Council where this decree is supposed by Bellarmin to be made , viz. the Council of Nice . For , Will you say the Council was Infallible in deciding the time of keeping Easter , because after that Council the Asian Bishops submitted to the custom of other Churches ? Is there no way imaginable to convince men , but by Infallibility ? If there be , their doubts may be taken away by a General Council , and yet that Council not be supposed Infallible . For if St. Augustin had meant so , nothing had been more pertinent then to have insisted on the decree of that Council ; and yet he there leaves it , and calls all arguments of that nature humane arguments , and therefore saith , ex Evangelio profero certa documenta ; I bring certain evidences out of the Gospel . Which words doubtless he would never have so immediately subjoyned to his former concerning a General Council , if he had judged it Infallible , or its decrees as certain as the Scripture . In your second place l. 7. c. 5. there is nothing hath any shadow of pertinency to your purpose ; that which I suppose you may mean , is , l. 5. c. 17. where what he said before was decreed by a General Council , he after saith , was the judgement of the Holy Catholick Church : from whence you may indeed infer that the Catholick Church did approve that decree of the Council , but how it proves it Infallible I cannot understand . Your last place is one sufficiently known to be far enough from your purpose , Ep. 118. ad Januar. where he saith , In case of indifferent rites , it is insolent madness to oppose the whole Church ; but you are an excellent disputant , who can hence infer , that therefore General Councils are Infallible in their definitions in matters of Faith. For any thing then you have brought to the contrary St. Austin is far enough from the least danger of contradicting himself . But if you could prove that he were of your mind , that the definitions of Councils are Infallible as well as the Scriptures , never did any man more expresly contradict himself then St. Augustin must do in a multitude of plain places , wherein he saith , That no other writing is Infallible but the Scripture ; That only according to them he judged freely of all other writings ; and that because he could yield an undoubted assent to none but them . That there is no other writing wherein humane infirmities are not discovered but in them ; that men are at liberty to believe or not believe any thing besides the Scripture . Can any man , who sayes these things be reasonably supposed to assert that the decrees of General Councils are as certain as the Scripture is ? You see then what little advantage you have gained by this attempt of offering to make St. Austin contradict himself , if in this place he should be supposed to assert that General Councils may err : which he doth plainly enough to any but those who are resolved not to understand him . This prejudice being therefore removed , we come to the particular evasions of this place ; which you thus sum up , in order to the defence of them . That when he saith , Former General Councils may be amended by the latter , it is only to be understood in matters of fact , in precepts pertaining to manners and discipline , or by way of more full and clear explication of what had been delivered by former Councils . To both these , his Lordship offers very just exceptions . To the first , that it is to be understood of precepts of manners and discipline ; he saith , 1. That Bellarmin contradicts himself , because he had said before , that General Councils cannot err in precepts of manners : No , ( say you ) this is no contradiction , because these depend much upon circumstances of time , place , person , &c. which varying , it often so falls out , that what at first was prudently judged fit to be done , becomes afterwards unfitting , and in this case one General Council may be amended by another , and yet neither charged with errour . But do you suppose the mean while that St. Austin spake pertinently to this business , or no ? If he did , he can be understood only of such a precept as that relating to the baptism of Hereticks . Suppose then one Council should decree Hereticks to be baptized , and another afterwards correct this , and say , They should not , Will you say that neither of these were in an errour ? So that your Answer is wholly impertinent to the scope of St. Austins discourse . And so his Lordship saith , This whole Answer is concerning precepts of manners : for St. Austin disputes against the errour of St. Cyprian followed by the Donatists , which was an errour in Faith ; namely , that true Baptism could not be given by Hereticks and such as were out of the Church . But you say , St. Austin doth not confine his discourse to St. Cyprians case only , but by occasion of his , and his Councils errour , he layes down general doctrine , touching the different authority of the writings of particular Bishops , Provincial National and General Councils . Although I should grant you this , it will make little for your purpose ; for St. Austins main design is , to set the Authority of Scripture far above all these , and that in point of Certainty and Infallibility ; and this being his main scope , whatsoever he sayes of any of these , it is certain his purpose is to shew that all of them fall short of the Sacred Scripture , as to our yielding assent to them . For these in the first place are set by themselves , as only being Infallible and deserving an undoubted assent to all that is contained in them : which being supposed , he proceeds to shew what the extent is of all other authority besides this . For the writings of Bishops , saith he , they are so far from deserving such an assent as we give to the Scriptures , that they may be corrected by others , or by National Councils ; and National Councils , by Plenary ; and Plenary may be amended , the former by the latter . In all which gradations two things must be repeated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as running through the whole Discourse , which are , 1. The difference of all these from the Scripture in regard of our yielding assent to them ; for that is it , which he begins with , that we are not in the least to doubt , whether any thing contained therein be true or no : and then comes the other in , by way of immediate Antithesis ; but , the writings of Bishops , &c. and although there be a gradation in all these , yet all of them are therein different from Scripture , that whatsoever is found there may neither be doubted nor disputed ; but the writings of Bishops may be doubted or disputed of , because they may be corrected by other Bishops or Councils . And those National Councils may be , because they may be corrected by General ; and even these General Councils cannot require such an undoubted assent as the Scripture doth , because the former may be amended by the latter . So that if you take the scope of S. Austin's discourse in this place , whether he speaks generally ; or particularly , nothing can be more evident , than that he puts this difference between the Scriptures , and all other writings or Councils , that the one may not at all be doubted or disputed of , but the other may : and the common reason of all is , because none are so Infallible , but they may be corrected by something besides themselves , which cannot be in any sense said of the Scripture . 2. Although Saint Austin adds that clause , Si quid in eis fortè à veritate deviatum est , If they have erred from the truth , only where he speaks of the writings of Bishops ; yet the series of his discourse implies , that it should be understood in what follows too : that , as the writings of Bishops may be corrected by Councils , if they have erred , so National Councils may be corrected by General , if they have erred ; and so former General Councils by latter on the same supposition still , that they have erred . For , as the errours was supposed to be the ground of correction in the former , it must be likewise of amendment here . And whatever is not so perfect , but that it may be amended , cannot be supposed Infallible ; for , if the persons had been Infallible , who had made those Decrees in General Councils , they would have prevented any necessity of further amendments by succeeding Councils . So that , take amendment in what sense you will , either for supplying defects , or correcting errours , it is destructive to your pretence , that the Decrees of General Councils are Infallible , and as certain as the Scripture . Which is so repugnant to the scope of this speech of S. Austin , as nothing can be more . Your Criticism then , from the signification of emendare from menda , and menda from minus , and so importing only the taking away any defect , yields you no relief at all : for that defect which is supposed in General Councils , which needs that emendation , doth sufficiently argue , there was no Infallible Assistance of the Spirit of God in the Decrees of those Councils . For where Gods Spirit assists infallibly , it leaves no such defects as are necessary to be amended afterwards , by some other Council which can pretend to no higher assistance than the other had before . But your critical judgement is not extraordinary , if you will have the signification of words taken from the conjectural Etymologies of them , such as this of Scaliger is in the place where he corrects Varro's Etymologies ( at the end of his Conjectanea ) but , besides that , all attempts of that nature are but Conjectural Essayes , it is but an ill way to judge of the use of a word by the Etymology of it ; for , What multitudes of words are carried further in their sense , than their Originals would bear ? His Lordship therefore takes a far surer way to know S. Austin's meaning , than running to Martinius for the signification of the word menda ; which is , by producing a parallel place in S. Austin , where it is taken for to correct , and supposes an evident fault ; aliud quod praecipere jubemur , aliud quod emendare praecipimur ; where emendare is , plainly to amend something amiss , not to supply something defective . So that Stapleton's sense of amending by explication of something not fully known , and not by correction of something erroneous , cannot here have place . For , as his Lordship well observes the National Council , which S. Austin did in this dispute speak most of , was not guilty meerly of not fully explaining it self , but of a positive errour , viz. that under S. Cyprian , determining that Baptism of Hereticks was no Baptism . And therefore when S. Austin speaks of amendment , it is such an amendment as doth suppose errour , and not barely defect . And so the words used before of reprehension and yielding , do both imply more than a bare explanation ; and those which follow after , evince it fully , where S. Austin layes down the cautions , whereby such amendments should be made , without sacrilegious pride , or swelling arrogancy , without contention of envy , and in holy humility , in Catholick peace , in Christian Charity . All which words were very needless , if he meant only an explanation of something not fully declared before ; but are very necessary , supposing it to be the amendment of some former errour . All the Answer you have , is , That these last words relate not in particular to General Councils ( by no means , although they follow them at the heels ) but to the other several subjects , viz. private Bishops , Provincial and National Councils ; which are subject to pride , arrogancy , and contention in their emendations . But , Was not S. Austin an unhappy man then at expressing himself , that he must needs set those Caveats after he had spoken of General Councils , which referr to the particulars that went before , without any reference to the immediate antecedents ? For if they do at all respect the proceedings of General Councils , ( as doubtless they do , and that most immediately , as appears to any one who reads them ) then they imply still , that this amendment of General Councils must be done without pride , arrogance , and envy , and with the greatest humility , and peace , and charity ; which it is hard to conceive why S. Austin should add , unless he supposed some errours to be amended in them . Nothing remains further for the clearing this place , but only that his Lordship mentions that which he calls , The poorest shift of all in Bellarmin , viz. that he speaks of unlawful Councils : and it is a sign it is so indeed , when you have nothing more to say for it , but only , that it was given ex superabundanti , and with a Peradventure . When his Lordship concludes , that the Popes Confirmation to make Councils Infallible , is a meer trick , and unknown to the ancient Church ; you have nothing more to prove it to be grounded on the practice of Councils of the Church , and of Reason , but to referr the Reader back to what you have said about the Popes Supremacy ; and therefore I must do so too , for an Answer to what you have said on that subject . The next thing which belongs to this Question , is contained in his Lordships sixth Consideration ; which is , If the definition of a General Council be Infallible , then the Infallibility of it , is either in the conclusion , and in the means that prove it ; or in the conclusion , not the means ; or in the means , not the conclusion . But it is Infallible in none of these . Not in the first ; for there are divers deliberations in General Councils , where the conclusion is Catholick , but the means by which they prove it , not Infallible . Not in the second ; for the conclusion must alwaies follow the nature of the premises , or principles out of which it is deduced ; therefore if those which the Council uses , be sometimes uncertain , the conclusion cannot be Infallible . Not in the third ; for the conclusion cannot but be true and necessary , if the means be so . Your Answer is , That it is Infallible in the conclusion , that is , in the Doctrine defined , though it be not Infallible in the means , or arguments upon which it proceeded to the definition . And your reason is , because one is necessary for the Government of the Church , but the other is not ; for , Deus non deficit in necessariis , nec redundat in superfluis . You mean , it is necessary for you to assert it , whether it hath any foundation in reason or no : for you have not yet proved , that the Infallibility of General Councils is necessary for the Churches Government , and therefore cannot thence inferr so great an absurdity as this ; that , where all the premises are fallible and uncertain , yet the conclusion may be prophetical and Infallible . But so involved and obscure are your discourses on this subject , that while you pretend a General Council is seeing Visions , one might easily believe you were dreaming dreams . For , I pray , speak out , and tell us , what you mean by Councils being fallible in the use of means , and yet Infallible in the conclusion drawn from those premises , which she was fallible in the deducing the conclusion from ? For the deducing the conclusion , is in the use of the means ; therefore how is it possible that the Council should be Infallible in the conclusion , when it was fallible in making that Conclusion ? But it may be I do not yet fully apprehend what you would have , neither I doubt do you . For you would fain be Infallible in the conclusion too , without so much as truth in the premises . But I shall attempt to make you speak intelligibly ; it must be one of these two things you mean , when you say , Councils are Infallible in the conclusion , either that they are Infallible in deducing the Conclusion , or in assenting to the Conclusion . If Infallible in the deducing the Conclusion , then it must be Infallible in the use of the means ; for , unless it doth infallibly discern the connexion of the premises , it is impossible it should be Infallible in drawing the Conclusion from them . So that it is non-sense , and a contradiction to say , That a Council is Infallible in the drawing a Conclusion , and not Infallible in the use of the means : for , it is to say , It is Infallible , and not Infallible at the same time , and about the same thing , and in the same manner . For , What is drawing a Conclusion , but a discerning that truth which results from the connexion of the premises together ? for that which is concluded , hath all its truth depending upon the evidence of the premises , otherwise it is a simple Proposition , and not a Conclusion . If you had then said , That the Spirit of God did immediately reveal to the Council the truth of what was to be decreed ; you had spoken that which might have been understood , though not believed ; but this you durst not say , for fear of the charge of Enthusiasms , and new Revelations : but when you say , The Council must use means , and make Syllogisms , as other fallible creatures do , but then it is Infallible in the drawing the Conclusion from the premises ( though it be fallible in the connexion of those premises ) is an unparalleld piece of profound non-sense . For , suppose the matter the Council was to determine , was the Popes Infallibility ; in order to the proving this , you say , The Council must use all arguments tending to prove it ; there comes in Christ's Prayer for S. Peter , that his Faith should not fail , and that this must be extended to his Successors , thence the argument is formed . Whomsoever Christ prayed for , that his Faith should not fail , is Infallible ; but Christ prayed for the Pope , that his Faith should not fail ; therefore he is Infallible . Now you say , The Council is fallible in the use of the means for this Conclusion , i. e. it may not infallibly believe the truth of the major or minor Proposition , but yet it may infallibly deduce thence the Conclusion , though all the strength of the Conclusion depends upon the truth of the premises . You must therefore either assert that the Decrees of Councils are immediately revealed as Divine Oracl●s , or else that they are fallible Conclusions drawn from fallible premises . And , were it not for a little shame , because of your charging others with immediate Revelations , I doubt not but you would assert the former ; which you must of necessity do , if you will maintain the Infallibility of General Councils : for if there be any infirmity in the use of the premises , it must of necessity be in the Conclusion too . But , suppose you mean an Infallible Assent to the matter of the Conclusion , though it be fallibly deduced , you are as far to seek as ever ; for , Whereon must that Assent be grounded ? It must be either upon the truth of the premises , or something immediately revealed : If on the truth of the premises , the Assent can be no stronger than the grounds are on which it is built ; if on something revealed , it must needs be still an immediate Revelation . But I forget my self all this while , to urge you thus with absurdities consequent from reason ; for , in answer to his Lordship , you grant , That it is a thing altogether unknown in nature , and art too , that fallible principles can either as Father or Mother , beget or bring forth an Infallible Conclusion ; for , when his Lordship had objected this , you return him this Answer , That this is a false supposition of the Bishop , for the Conclusion is not so much the child of those premises ( i. e. it is not the Conclusion ) as the fruit of the Holy Ghost , directing and guiding the Council , to produce an Infallible Conclusion , whatever the premises be ( true , or false , certain , or uncertain , all is a case . ) This is necessary for the peace and unity of the Church ( to believe Contradictions ) and therefore not to be denied , unless an impossibility be shewed therein . ( I doubt , believing contradictions is accounted no impossibility with you . ) But , I hope , no man will attaque Gods Omnipotency , and deprive him of the power of doing this . Is it come to that at last ? Whatever you assert that is repugnant to the common reason of mankind , and involves contradictions in it , that you call for Gods Omnipotency to help you in . Thus Transubstantiation must be believed , because God is Omnipotent ; and that men may believe any thing , though not grounded on Scripture , and repugnant to Reason , because God is Omnipotent . We acknowledge God's Omnipotency , as much as you , but we dare not put it to such servile uses , to make good any absurd imaginations of our brains . If you had said , It was possible , for God to enlighten the minds of the Bishops in a General Council , either to discern infallibly the truth of the premises , or immediately to reveal the truth of the Conclusion , you had spoken intelligible falshoods . But to say , that God permits them to be fallible in the use of the means , and in drawing the Conclusion from them ; but to be Infallible in the Conclusion it self , without any immediate Revelation , and then to challenge Gods Omnipotency for it : I know not whether it be a greater dishonour to God , or reproach to humane understanding . And if such incongruities as these are , do not discover that you are miserably hampered , as his Lordship saith , in this argument , I know not what will. But we must proceed to discover more of them ; two things his Lordship very rationally objects against Stapletons assertion , That the Council is discursive in the use of the means , but prophetical in delivering the Conclusion . 1. That since this is not according to principles of nature and reason , there must be some supernatural Authority , which must deliver this truth ( which , saith he , must be the Scripture . ) For if you fly to immediate Revelations ; the Enthusiasm must be yours . But the Scriptures which are brought , in the very exposition of all the Primitive Church , neither say it , nor enforce it . Therefore Scripture warrants not your prophecy in the Conclusion . Neither can the Tradition : Produce one Father , who sayes , This is an Vniversal Tradition of the Church , that her definitions in a General Council are prophetical , and by immediate Revelation : Produce any one Father that sayes it of his own authority , that he thinks so . To all this you very gravely say nothing ; and we can shrewdly guess at the reason of it . 2. His Lordship proves , That it is a repugnancy to say , That the Council is prophetical in the Conclusion , and discursive in the use of the means ; for no Prophet , in that which he delivered from God as Infallible truth , was ever discursive at all in the use of the means ; Nay ( saith he ) make it but probable in the ordinary course of prophecy , and I hope you go no higher , nor will I offer at Gods absolute power ( but his Lordship was deceived in you , for you run to Gods Omnipotency ) that that which is discursive in the means , can be prophetical in the Conclusion , and you shall be my great Apollo for ever . And this , he shews , is contrary to what your own Authours deliver concerning the nature and kinds of prophecy , and that none of them were by discourse . To this you answer , That both Stapleton and you deny that the Church is simply prophetical , either in the premises or Conclusion , but rather the quite contrary ; and that by the definition of the Councils being prophetical in an Analogical sense , no more is meant but that by vertue of divine assistance and direction , such a Conclusion or definition , in regard of precise verity , is as infallibly true and certain , as if it were a prophecy . But if you had a mind that we should understand , or believe what you say , Why do not you come more out of the clouds , and shew us the difference between that which is simply prophetical , and that which is only Analogically so , but as infallibly true and certain as the other ? But , that you may no longer blind the world with such insignificant discourses , I shall put you upon speaking more distinctly , by enquiring into those waies , whereby God may be supposed supernaturally to work upon the minds of men , in order to the discovery of truth . These two waies we may conceive that God may make known truth to the minds of men . 1. By the immediate discovery of something , which could not otherwise be known but by immediate Revelation : And of this nature were all those future events which were revealed to the Prophets , and this I suppose you call simply prophetical ; so likewise all those Doctrines which are of pure Revelation , i. e. such as could never have been known , unless God had revealed them : of which kind there are several in the Gospel . 2. God may discover such things to the minds of men , which , though they might otherwise be known , yet not with that degree of certainty , as by this immediate assistance of Gods Spirit : Now this I suppose , is that you call Analogically prophetical , which you assert to differ nothing at all from prophecy , in regard of Infallible truth and certainty , being by vertue of divine assistance and direction . And this you say a General Council hath , but not the former . Now to convince you of the absurdity of your assertions , I shall shew you these two things . 1. That this cannot be without an imm●diate Revelation . 2. That being so , it cannot be discursive , as you say it is in the use of the means . 1. That this cannot be without an immediate Revelation : for which I need nothing but your own assertions , viz. that this is a higher discovery of truth , than nature can ever attain to , or ordinary Grace ; and that it is such as obliges all men to an internal assent to it , when it is declared . Now I shall desire you , or any of your party , to tell me , What difference there is between this , and the Inspiration which the Apostles had in writing the Books of Scripture . I mean not such as contain prophesies in them , but those which deliver to us the Gospel of Christ : as for instance , in S. John's Gospel , he doth not pretend to deliver any thing which was not revealed before , but to give an account of the Doctrine and life of Christ. And so that Inspiration was not simply prophetical , as in writing the Prophecies in the Apocalyps , but Analogically so , in that such an assistance of Gods Spirit , as made what he writ , to be as infallibly true and certain , as if it were a Prophecy , which are your own words concerning the Infallibility of Councils . Shew us therefore any rational difference between this kind of Infallibility , and that Inspiration by which the Books of Scripture are written . If you say , the one was immediate and the other not , you beg the Question : for I am proving that what you assert , doth necessarily imply , that it is as immediate as that which the Apostles had . Nay I will go yet further , and say it is as immediate as that which the Apostles themselves had in Council . For when they said , It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us , Can any thing more possibly be understood , then that the Spirit of God did so far assist their minds , that they should not err in their Definitions ? And therefore when of late you are grown ( forsooth ) somewhat jealous of the word Infallibility , and you give us a grave advertisement at the end of your Preface , that you do not mean by it an intrinsecal unerring power in all things , in those whom you account Infallible , but only that they never have erred , nor shall err in definitions of Faith ; you do not at all advantage your selves by it . For none of your considerate adversaries do charge you so much with usurping Gods incommunicable attribute of Infallibility , ( which is thereby avoided because you pretend to derive it from him ) but that you challenge the same Infallibility which the Apostles had . And so must of necessity assert as much of Divine Enthusiasm and immediate revelation in your Church , as any of the Apostles themselves had . For what ever they had , came by vertue of Christs promise , and that is all you say for the Churches Infallibility : but that doth no more take it off from being an immediate revelation in the Church , then it did in the Apostles . If you say , The Church is only secured that it neither hath erred , nor can err in definitions of Faith , What more had the Apostles then this ? And if this in them did require an immediate inspiration , certainly it must do so in the Church too . But you say , Neither Church nor Council do publish immediate revelations , nor create any new Articles of Faith , but only declare and unfold by their definitions , that doctrine , which Christ and his Apostles in some manner first delivered . But all this , supposing it true , doth not hinder , but the Councils Infallibility must imply an immediate revelation on the part of the Council , though not of the Doctrine decreed by them . For granting the decrees of the Council are no new Articles of Faith ( which is yet contrary to your own principles ; for if by the definitions of Councils that may be de fide which was not before , then the Councils do make new Articles of Faith , though not new Doctrines ) i. e. that the matter of them in some manner was before revealed , yet since you say the Council in declaring them , hath an Infallibility , equal to Prophecy , it must be by immediate inspiration . For , Hath the Council greater certainty , and higher assistance then any ordinary believer hath or not ? if not , it can be no more Infallible then an ordinary believer ; if it hath , it must be immediate , because it hath a higher degree of certainty , then can be attained by the use of means . And to say this , as you do expresly , when you assert the Council fallible in the use of means , but infallible in the conclusion , is a most palpable Contradiction . For , it is to assert a certainty beyond and above the use of means , and yet not immediate . But here lyes your perpetual mistake , as though nothing could be an immediate revelation , but what is a revelation of some Doctrine never revealed before : whereas if there be a further explanation of that Doctrine in as Infallible a manner as the Apostles at first revealed it , that explanation is by as immediate a revelation , as the first discovery of it . As is clear in the Council of the Apostles , for I hope you will not deny , but the non-obligation of the ceremonial Law was in some manner revealed to them before ; and yet I hope you will not say , but the Apostles had an immediate revelation as to what they decreed in that Council . It is very plain therefore , that when you say , General Councils neither have erred nor can err in their definitions , they usurp as great a priviledge thereby as ever the Apostles had , and in order to it must have as immediate an inspiration . For , never was there any such Infallibility , either in the Prophets or Apostles , as did suppose an absolute impossibility of errour ; but it was wholly hypothetical in case of Divine assistance , which hindred them from any capacity of erring so long as that continued with them and no longer . For , inspiration was no permanent habit , but a transient act in them ; and that being removed , they were lyable to errours as well as others ; from whence it follows , that where revelations were most immediate , they did no more then what you assume to your Church , viz. preserve them from actual errour in declaring Gods will. So that nothing can be more evident then that you challenge as great an Infallibility , and as immediate assistance of Gods Spirit in Councils as ever the Prophets and Apostles had . And therefore that Divine was in the right , of whom Canus speaks , who asserted , That since General Councils were Infallible , their definitions ought to be equalled with the Scriptures themselves . And although Canus and others dislike this , it is rather because of the odium which would follow it , than for any just reason they give , why it should not follow . For they not only suppose as great a Certainty or Infallibility in the Decrees of both , but an equal obligation to internal assent in those to whom they are declared . Which doth further prove , that the revelation must be immediate : for if by vertue of those definitions , we are obliged to assent to the Doctrines contained in them as Infallibly true , there must be an immediate Divine Authority which must command our Assent . For nothing short of that can oblige us to believe any thing as of Divine revelation ; now Councils require , that we must believe their definitions to be Divine truths , though men were not obliged to believe them to be so , before those definitions . For that is your express Doctrine , That though the matters decreed in Councils were in some manner revealed before , yet not so as to oblige all men with an explicite assent to believe them ; but after the definitions of Councils they are bound to do it . So that though there be not an object newly revealed , yet there ariseth a new obligation to internal assent ; which obligation cannot come but from immediate Divine Authority . If you say , The obligation comes not simply by vertue of the Councils definitions , but by a command extant in Scripture , whereby all are bound to give this assent to the decrees of Councils ; I then say , we must be excused from it , till you have discharged this new obligation upon your self , by producing some express testimony of Scripture to that purpose : which is , I think , sufficient to keep our minds at liberty from this internal assent to the definitions of General Councils by vertue of any Infallibility in them . And thus having more at large considered the nature of this Infallibility which you challenge to General Councils , and having shewed that it implyes as immediate a revelation as the Apostles had ; the second thing is sufficiently demonstrated , That this Infallibility cannot suppose discursiveness with fallibility in the use of the means , because these two are repugnant to each other . The next thing to be considered , is , Stapletons argument , why Councils must be Prophetical in the conclusion ; because that which is determined by the Church is matter of Faith , and not of knowledge , and the assent required else would not be an assent of Faith , but an habit of knowledge . To which his Lordship Answers , That he sees no inconvenience in it , if it be granted ; for one and the same conclusion may be Faith to the believer , that cannot prove ; and knowledge to the learned , that can . Which he further explains thus : Some supernatural principles which reason cannot demonstrate simply , must be supposed in order to Faith ; but , these principles being owned , reason being thereby inlightned , that may serve to convert or convince Philosophers , and the great men of reason in the very point of Faith where it is at the highest . This he brings down to the business of Councils ; as to which , he saith , that the first immediate , fundamental points of Faith , as they cannot be proved simply by reason , so neither need they be determined by any Council , nor ever were they attempted , they are so plain set down in Scripture . If about the sense and true meaning of these , or necessary deduction out of the prime Articles of Faith , General Councils determine any thing , as they have done at Nice and the rest ; there is no inconvenience , that one and the same Canon of the Council should be believed as it reflects upon the Articles and grounds indemonstrable ; and yet known to the learned , by the means and proof , by which that deduction is vouched and made good . And again the conclusion of a Council , suppose that in Nice about the consubstantiality of Christ with the Father , in it self considered , is indemonstrable by reason ; there ( saith he ) I believe , and assent in Faith : but the same conclusion if you give me the ground of Scripture and the Creed ( for somewhat must be supposed in all whether Faith or knowledge ) is demonstrable by natural reason against any Arrian in the world . So that he concludes , The weaker sort of Christians may assent by Faith , where the more learned may build it on reason , the principles of Faith being supposed . This is the substance of his Lordships Discourse . In Answer to which , you tell us , That the Bishop seems to broach a new Doctrine , that the assent of Faith may be an habit of knowledge . But surely ( say you ) Divine Faith is according to the Apostle , Heb. 11. an Argument of things which do not appear , viz. by the same means , by which we give this assent of Faith : otherwise our Faith would not be free and meritorious . An Answer I must needs say , hugely suitable to your principles , who are most concerned of all men to set reason at a distance from Faith ; and so you do sufficiently in this Discourse of it . For it is no easie matter to understand what you mean , but that is not to be wondered at , since you make obscurity so necessary to Faith. Divine Faith is ( you say ) an Argument of things which do not appear , viz. by the same means , by which we give this assent of Faith. Do you mean that the objects of Faith do not appear ? or that the reason of believing doth not ? If only the former , which is all the Apostle means ; that is nothing to your purpose , for we are not enquiring , whether men may not believe the things which are not seen , but , whether the assent of Faith may not be consistent with reason : which I am so far from thinking any strange doctrine , that I cannot see how there can be an assent of Faith without reason . And they must be such great meriters at Gods hands , as you are , who must think to oblige him with believing what you cannot understand , or see any ground in reason for . For , assent being an act of the mind cannot be elicited without sufficient reason , perswading the mind to it ; or else , it is so far from being free , and as you ( who are so loath to be beholding to God ) call it , meritorious , that it is brutish and irrational . Not that there are demonstrations to be expected for every thing we believe , but there must be sufficient reason for the mind to build its assent upon , and that reason is evidence , and that evidence destroyes that obscurity which you make necessary to Faith. Evidence , I say , not of the object , but of the reason and obligation to assent . When you say , That Faith , as Faith , cannot be Knowledge , his Lordship grants it ; but yet it doth not thence follow , that what may be believed by one may not be known by another : and though Christ ( as you add ) did not set up a School of knowledge but of Faith , yet he did not set up a School of blind implicite Faith , but such a one as consists of a rational and discursive act of the mind . You must not therefore expect that we should believe the definitions of Councils because they pretend to be Infallible , but you must first convince our reasons that they are so , and then we shall assent to them . But you have very well contrived your business , to have an obscure , implicite Faith , for such Doctrines which are so far from any evidence of Reason . CHAP. II. Of the use and Authority of General Councils . The denying the Infallibility of General Councils takes not away their use and Authority . Of the submission due to them by all particular persons . How far external obedience is required in case they err . No violent opposition to be made against them . Rare Inconveniences hinder not the effect of a just power . It cannot rationally be supposed , that such General Councils as are here meant should often or dangerously err . The true notion of a General Council explained . The Freedom requisite in the proceedings of it . The Rule it must judge by . Great difference between external obedience , and internal assent to the Decrees of Councils . This latter unites men in errour , not the former . As great uncertainties supposing General Councils Infallible as not . Not so great certainty requisite for submission as Faith. Whether the Romanists Doctrine of the Infallibility of Councils , or ours , tend more to the Churches peace ? St. Austin explained . The Keyes according to him given to the Church . No unremediable inconvenience , supposing a General Councilerr . But errours in Faith are so , supposing them Infallible when they are not . The Church hath power to reverse the Decrees of General Councils . The power of Councils not by Divine Institution . The unreasonableness of making the Infallibility of Councils depend on the Popes confirmation . No consent among the Romanists about the subject of Infallibility , whether in Pope or Council . No evidence from Scripture , Reason , or Antiquity , for the Popes personal Infallibility . THE first question being thus dispatched , I now come to the second , which is , Of what Vse and Authority General Councils are in the Church , supposing them not Infallible ? And here again two things are to be examined ; first , How far General Councils are to be submitted to . Secondly , Whether our opinion or yours tend more to the peace of the Church ; for both these his Lordship handles distinctly , and so shall we . For the first , nothing is more necessary then throughly to understand his Lordships meaning , which he most fully delivers in these words . General Councils lawfully called and ordered and lawfully proceeding , are a great and awful representation , and cannot err in matters of Faith , keeping themselves to Gods rule , and not attempting to make a new one of their own ; and are with all submission to be observed by every Christian , where Scripture , or evident demonstration , comes not against them . Two things you mainly object against this opinion . 1. That in case such a Council err , it tends only to unite men in errour . 2. Who shall be Judge of all those conditions implyed in the Councils proceedings ? to these two , all that I can find material scattered up and down in your Discourse on this Subject , may be reduced . For the first , we must consider the occasion of his Lordships entrance into this subject concerning General Councils , how far they may err , or not , which he saith , is a question of great consequence in the Church of God. For to say they cannot err , leaves the Church not only without remedy against an errour once determin'd ; but also without sense that it may need a remedy , and so without care to seek it , which is the misery of the Church of Rome at this day . To say they can err , seems to expose the members of the Church to an uncertainty and wavering in the Faith , to make unquiet Spirits not only to disrespect former Councils of the Church , but also to slight and contemn whatsoever they may now determine . So that , great inconveniencies appearing on both sides , his Lordship endeavours to steer his course so as not to dash on the rocks of either side , by betraying the Churches Faith in asserting their Infallibility , or the Churches peace by acknowledging them fallible . But as he could not see any reason to believe them Infallible , so neither could he see any necessity that the Churches peace should be broken , supposing them not to be so . And the most obvious objection being , If a General Council be fallible , what is to be done in case it should err ? For that , he propounds this Expedient , That the determination of a General Council erring was to stand in force , and to have external obedience at the least yielded to it , till evidence of Scripture , or a demonstration to the contrary made the errour appear ; and untill thereupon another Council of equal authority did reverse it . And he after explains what he means by this external obedience , viz. That which consists in silence , patience , and forbearance yielded to it : which he builds on this reason , That Controversies arising in the Church must have some end or they 'l tear all in sunder : therefore supposing a General Council should err , and an erring Decree be by the Law it self invalid , I would have it , ( saith he ) wisely considered again ( supposing the Council not to err in Fundamental Verity ) whether it be not fit to allow a General Council that honour and priviledge , which all other great Courts have ; Namely that there be a declaration of the invalidity of its decrees , as well as of the Laws of other Courts , before private men can take liberty to refuse obedience . Therefore he concludes , That this seems most fit and necessary for the peace of Christendom , unless in case the errour be manifest and intolerable , or that the whole Church upon peaceable and just complaint of this errour neglect or refuse to call a Council to examine it : and there come in National and Provincial Councils to reform for themselves . These words contain the full account of his Lordships opinion , which you charge with so many interclashings and inconveniences . The first of which is , That it tends only to oblige all the members of the Church to an Vnity in errour against Scripture and demonstration , during their whole lives , or rather to the worlds end ; since such an Utopian rectifying Council as the Bishop here fancies , is morally impossible ever to be had ; and therefore you call it a strange ( not not say an impious ) doctrine , advanced without authority of Gods Word , or Antiquity , nay contrary to all solid reason . This being a charge of the highest nature and manag'd with such unmeasurable confidence , we must somewhat further enquire into the grounds of his Lordships opinion , to see whether it be guilty of these crimes or no. There are three things therefore must be cleared in order to his Lordships Vindication . 1. The design of his Discourse . 2. The suppositions he makes as to the proceedings of the Council . 3. The obligation of its decrees supposing that it should err . 1. The design of his discourse is to be considered ; which is to remedy a supposable inconvenience , and to provide for the Churches peace . For the first question in debate was , Whether a General Council might err , or no. In which his Lordship gives sufficient evidence from Scripture , Antiquity , and Reason , that it might . But then here comes an inconvenience to be removed ; for his Adversary objects , What are we then nearer to Vnity after a Council hath determin'd , supposing it may err ? To this his Lordship suits his Answer : wherein we ought to consider , that the inconvenience objected is , on his Lordships suppositions , one of the rara contingentia ; and such a one ought not to destroy a principle of Government in all other cases useful and necessary . For there cannot possibly be any way thought of for peace and Government , but there may be a supposition made of some notable inconvenience ; but that not being necessary , nor immediately consequent upon it , but something which may happen and far more probably may not , it ought not to hinder the obtaining of that , which is generally both useful and necessary . To give you a parallel case to this : It is granted on all hands that the civil authority of a Nation is Fallible , and therefore we may suppose it actually to err , and that so far as to bind men by Law to something in it self unlawful . Will you say now , that the intent of civil authority is to bind men necessarily to sin ? I hope , you will not : but by this you may easily see the fallacy of your arguing against his Lordship ; for it is an Inconvenience indeed supposable , but not at all necessary ; if he had said indeed , that General Councils must necessarily err , your Argument had been strong against him ; but as it is , it hath no more force against his assertion , then the supposition before made hath against civil authority . For that case may be easily put , that such a Law may pass ; but , doth this hinder men from their obligation to duty and submission to a just authority ? or , Will you have men presently to renounce obedience , and to repeal such a Law themselves , and not rather in all wayes of duty and reverence to authority make known their just complaints and desire a redress by the hands of Supream authority ? And this is all which his Lordship aims at , that in case a General Council should err ( which is not easily imaginable upon his suppositions ) it tends more to the Churches peace for private men not to oppose the Decrees of it , but to endeavour that another General Council be called to repeal it , and till then to preserve the Churches peace , supposing the errour not manifest or intolerable . In this case then there are two inconveniences put : the one of them is , That when a Council is supposed to err , every particular man may be at liberty to oppose the Decrees of it , and so put the Church into confusion ; the other is , That though private men may know it to be an errour , yet they should be patient till the Church by another Council may repeal it : now these two inconveniences being laid together , the question is , Which is the greater ? His Lordship with a great deal of reason judges the former to be : because in the latter case it is only a silencing of some less necessary truth for some time ; but in the other it is an exposing the Church to the fury of mens turbulent Spirits . But that which shews the unreasonableness of your objection , That this is the way to bind the Church to an union in errour , is , that this doth not necessarily follow from his Lordships opinion , but is only a case supposable : and no rare Inconvenience ought to prejudice a general good : And the peace of the Church in such a case ought to be preferred before private mens satisfaction . But this will further appear , if we consider , secondly , the Suppositions his Lordship makes ; for by that we shall see , how rarely incident this case is : for , I hope , the supposing that a General Council may erre , doth not suppose that it must necessarily erre ; and granting those things which are supposed by him , it is a rare case that it should erre . For these things are by him supposed . 1. That it must be a Council lawfully called and ordered ; and so , not such Councils as that of Trent was , or any like it ; wherein the Pope gives only a General Summons , and that it must be called a General Council on that account , how few Bishops soever appear in it , nay , though the far greatest part of the Christian world be excluded from it : but it must be such a Council as may be acknowledged to be General , by the general Consent of the Christian world . For that we would make our Judge in the case ; as it was in the four first General Councils . Not that we would stand upon Bishops being actually present from every particular Church , but that such a number be present from the greatest Churches , as may make it not be suspected to be meerly a Faction , packed together for the Interess of some potent Prelate ; but that they do so indifferently meet from all parts , that there may be no just ground of suspicion , that they design any thing but the common good of the Christian world . And therefore we acknowledge the first four General Councils to be truly such , in our present sense ; neither do we quarrel at them , because so few Bishops were present , who lived out of the Roman Empire ; for , supposing the Church at the same freedom from particular Interesses that it was then , and so great a number of Bishops assembled together , we look on it to be so great and awful a Representation , that its determinations ought not to be opposed by any factious or turbulent Spirits . And in case some Bishops be not present from some Churches , whether Eastern or Western , yet if upon the publishing those Decrees , they be universally accepted , that doth , ex post-facto , make the Council truly Occumenical . By this you see , what we mean by a General Council . And , for the calling of it ; though we say , it should be by the consent of the chief Patriarchs , yet the right and custom of the ancient Church , clearly carries it , that it ought to be summoned by the authority of Christian Princes : for , nothing can be more evident to such , who will not shut their eyes against the clearest evidence , than that the first General Councils ( before the Pope had got the better of the Emperours ) were summoned by the Emperours command and authority ; and since the division of the Empire into so many Kingdoms and Principalities , the consent of Christian Princes is necessary on the same grounds . Neither ought it only to be a General Council , and lawfully called , but lawfully ordered too , viz. that no Prelate challenge himself such a Presidency not in , but over the Council , that his Instructions must be looked on as the only Chart they must steer their course by ; and that nothing be debated , but proponentibus Legatis , as it was at Trent : for these things take away utterly that Freedom which is necessary for a General Council . And therefore his Lordship justly requires , 2. That the Council do proceed lawfully ; which it cannot do , if it be over-awed , as the second Ephesine was by Dioscorus and his party ; or if practices be used , as at Ariminum : but there must be the greatest freedom in debates , no canvasing for votes , but every one suffered to deliver his judgement , without prejudice or partiality , that those who give their judegements , deliver their reasons before , and not only appear in Pontificalibus , to give their Placet . That the Bishops present , be men of unquestionable abilities , and generally presumed to be well acquainted with the matters to be debated there : For otherwise nothing would be more easie , than for the more subtil men , under ambiguous expressions , and fair pretences to bring over a great number of the rest to them , who want either judgement or learning enough to discern their designs . And this is supposed to be the case of the Council at Ariminum , where the Occidental Bishops , for want of learning were over-reached by the subtilty of the Arrian party . 3. His Lordship supposes , That this Council keeps it self to Gods Rule , and not attempt to make a new one of their own : For in so doing they commit an errour in the first Concoction , which will be incorrigible afterwards . And this is not only reasonable , but just and necessary , because nothing can be a Rule of Faith , but what is of immediate divine Revelation ; and this hath been the practice of the first General Councils , which never owned or proceeded by any other Rule of Faith but this . These things being supposed , May we not justly say , That an erring determination of such a Council so proceeding , is a rare case ? Since we believe , that God will not deny to any particular person ( who doth sincerely seek it ) the knowledge of his truth , much less may we think he will do it to such an awful Representation of the Church , when assembled together purposely for finding out that truth , which may be of so great consequence to the Christian world . For both the truth of Gods promises , the goodness of God to his people , and his peculiar care of his Church , seem highly concerned , that such a Council should not be guilty of any notorious errour . But , because we deny not , but such a Council is fallible , therefore we grant the case may be put , that such a Council may erre ; and the Question is , What is to be done then ? Whether every particular person may oppose such a determination , or submit till another Council reverse the Decrees of it . His Lordship asserts the latter ; and so we come to the effect of such an erring Decree , which was the third thing to be spoken to . As to which , these things must be considered , 1. That he doth not assert , that men are bound to believe the truth of that Decree , but not openly to oppose it . For so he speaks expresly of external obedience , and at least so far as it consists in silence , patience , and forbearance yielded to it . And therefore you are greatly deceived , when with such confidence you assert , That this obliges all the members of the Church to unity in errour ; for that is only consequent upon your principle , that the Decrees of General Councils are to be believed by an internal Assent : for this indeed would necessarily oblige them to unity in errour ; but the most that is consequent on his Lordships Opinion , is , that in such cases wherein a General Council hath erred , men ought rather to be silent for a time as to some truth , than to break the Churches peace . In the mean time he doth not deny , but that men may be bound to follow their own judgements in the discovery of truth ; nay , and they may use all means consistent with the Churches peace , to promote that truth ; for he allows that just complaints may be made to the Church for reversing the decrees of the former Council , and this cannot be without discovering the errour of that Council . And I hope this liberty of dissent and just complaint , is sufficient to keep all the members of the Church from being united in Errour . And , I pray Sir , What cause is there now for such hideous out-cryes , that this is such a strange and impious Doctrine , against Scripture , Antiquity , and solid Reason , which appears , for all that I can see , very just and reasonable , taking it in the way which he explains himself in . But , whereas you object , That this will keep men in errour to the worlds end , because such a Council is morally impossible ; it is easie to shew you , that if the rectifying Council be impossible ; the General erring Council is equally impossible ; therefore there is no danger coming that way neither . And that such General Councils are grown such morally impossible things , we may in a great measure thank your Church for it , which hates as much such a true rectifying Council ( as you call it ) as the Court of Rome does a thorow Reformation . For , all your design is , to perswade men , that those only are General Councils , which have the Popes Summons , and wherein he rules , and , in effect , does all ; and to perswade men to believe the Decrees of such Councils , is the most effectual way in the world to unite men in the belief of errours to the worlds end . For , as long as the Popes Interest can carry it , to be sure , all rectifying Councils , shall be ( as you say ) Vtopian too ; for he will prevent , if possible , their ever appearing in Europe . Therefore all this discourse of his Lordship doth suppose such a state of the Church , as that was in the time of the Nicene Councils , and after ; when there might be a liberty of calling such Councils , that in case one errs , another might be summoned to reverse it . But this is not to be expected in faece Romuli , in this state of the Christian world , that there should be such a General Council so called , and so proceeding as he supposes , and therefore there is no such danger of being united in errour , by vertue of its Decrees ; but if the state of things would bear such a Council so decreeing , we might as well think it would bear another to reverse it , if need were , and then his Lordships supposition would come to act , that in the interstice of those Councils , private men ought not to oppose the Decrees of the former , but patiently wait till the latter reverse them . But , as things are now in the Christian world , his Lordship doth not suppose that any Council hath such a power to oblige , because it calls it self a General Council ; but a truly General Council being , as you say , morally impossible , nothing is left but that the Church reform it self by parts , and wait to give an account of its proceedings therein , till such a General Council as we before described , be assembled in the Christian world . Thus we see , how vain and empty your first Objection is , That from his Lordships opinion , it would follow , that the Church must be united in errour , which is only the direct consequent of your own assertion , that men are bound to believe the Decrees of those you call General Councils to be Infallible . Your next great Objection is , That this Doctrine exposes all to uncertainties ; for , Who shall be judge , whether it be a lawful Council , and proceeds lawfully ? Whether the errours be fundamental and intolerable or no ? Whether there be Scripture and demonstration against them or no ? For , if every man be judge , there can be no such submission to any General Council . This is the force of the many words , which , in several places , you spend upon this subject ; and therefore I shall consider them together . I answer therefore , 1. In general , if this be so intolerable an inconvenience , it is unavoidable upon your own principles : and therefore it is unreasonable to object that to another , which you cannot quit your self of . For you say , That the Infallibility of General Councils confirmed by the Pope , is the best way to end Controversies ; but there is not one term in the main Proposition , but is liable to the same uncertainty which you here object to his Lordship ; for , 1. You do not say , that all Councils are Infallible , but only General Councils , Who then shall be judge , whether the Council you would have me believe , be General or no ? You do not say , that all must be there to make a General Council , but the Popes General Summons is sufficient : But , Who must be judge , whether that be sufficient or no ? You say so ; but , I see no reason for it , Must you be my judge , or I my own ? If I may be my own judge , so must every one else , and so every man is left to believe what Councils to be General he please himself . 2. You say , General Councils are Infallible : Who must be judge of that too ? Must the Council be infallibly believed in it ? But that is the thing in Question . Must the Pope be judge ? But no man ( you say ) is bound to believe him Infallible without the Council . Must the Scripture be judge ? But , Who must judge what the sense of the Scripture is ? 3. Who must be judge in what sense , and how far the Council is Infallible ? Who must judge , how the Council comes to be Infallible in the Conclusion , that was fallible in the use of the means ? And when any Controversie arises concerning the meaning of the Decrees of the Council , Who must be judge , which is the Infallible sense of them ? for there is but one sense Infallible , though the words may bear many , and unless I know which is the Infallible sense , I am not bound to yield my assent to it . But , Who must decide this ? The Council cannot ; for that leaves no exposition with the decrees . The Pope cannot ; for he is not Infallible without the Council . So that still it falls to every mans private reason , to judge of it . 4. Who must be judge , that the Popes Confirmation is necessary to make the Decrees Infallible ? Not the Council without the Pope , not the Pope without the Council ; for , you say , We are not bound to believe them Infallible , but as they are together . And together they cannot , for that is the Question , Why not a Council without the Popes Confirmation , as well as with it ? and , When did Pope and Council determine , that no Council without the Pope , is Infallible ? but the contrary hath been determined by a Council , viz. that a Council is above the Pope , and consequently needs not his Confirmation . So that for all your pretending to end Controversies , you leave men at as great uncertainties as any whatsoever . Being not able to resolve some of the most necessary Questions , in order to the Churches peace , according to your own principles . 2. I answer more particularly , that his Lordships opinion doth not expose near to so great uncertainties as yours doth ; upon this reason , because you requiring an internal assent to the Decrees of Councils , and Infallible Certainty in all that men believe , must of necessity leave men in the greatest perplexities , where you cannot give them that kind of Certainty on which they may build their Faith ; but , his Lordship only requiring external obedience to the Decrees of Councils , a far less degree of Certainty will be sufficient . That is , such a kind of Moral Certainty , as things of that nature are capable of . You ask then , Who shall be judge , whether a Council were lawfully called , and did lawfully proceed or no ? I answer , let every man be judge according to the general sense and reason of mankind . If there were sufficient authority for calling them together , according to the known practice of the Church ; if there was no plain ground of suspicion of any practises by the power of any particular Prelate ; no complaints made of it , either in , or after the Council ; if there be no plain evidence that it takes any other Rules for its Decrees , but the Scripture , then we say , They are bound to yield external obedience to them , supposing the Council generally received in the Christian world for a lawful and General Council . If you ask again , How should it be known when errours are manifest and intolerable , and when not ? We here appeal to Scripture interpreted by the concurrent sense of the Primitive Church , the common reason of mankind ( supposing the Scripture to be the Rule of Faith ) the consent of wise and learned men ; which certainly will prevent the exorbitances and capricious humours of any phantastical Spirits , which may cry out , That the most received truths , ever since Christianity was in the world , are intolerable errours . If you are resolved yet further to ask , Who shall be judge what a necessary reason or demonstration is ? His Lordship tells you , I think plain enough , from Hooker , what is understood by it , viz. such as being proposed to any man , and understood , the mind cannot chuse but inwardly assent to it . And , Do you require any other judge but a mans own reason in this case ? But , you say , Others call their arguments demonstrations ; but let them submit to this way of tryal , and they may soon be convinced that they are not . Still you say , They will not be convinced , but will break the peace of the Church , supposing they have sufficient evidence for what they say . But if men will be unreasonable , who can help it ? Can you , with telling them Councils are Infallible ? I doubt you would hear of more arguments than you could well satisfie against that presently . We appeal then to the common reason of mankind , Whether it be not a far probable way to end Controversies , to perswade men in disputable matters , to yield external obedience to the Decrees of a lawful General Council , than to tell them , they are bound to believe whatever they decree to be infallibly true ? And therefore you are very much mistaken , when you say , His Lordship declines the main Question , which is , of the necessity of submitting to a living Judge , or a definitive sentence , in case two parties , equal for learning and integrity , both pretend to equal evidence for what they say ; for his Lordship doth not deny , but that in such a case the submitting to a definitive sentence , may be a reasonable way to end the Controversie ; but then the difference between you lyes in two things . 1. That you would bind men to internal assent to the Decrees of a Council , as being Infallible ; but his Lordship saith , They bind to external obedience , as being the Supremest Judicatory can be expected in the Church . 2. You pretend , that Councils called and confirmed by the Pope , are thus Infallible , and our Supreme Judge in matters of Faith ; his Lordship justly dedies that , and sayes , That a Free General Council observing the same conditions which the first did , is the only equal and indifferent Judge . So that the Question is not so much , Whether shall be a living Judge ? as , Who shall be he ? and , How far the definitive Sentence binds ? and , What is to be done , in case there cannot be a free and indifferent Judge ? for in this case we say , Every Church is bound to regard her own purity and peace , and , in case of corruptions , to proceed to a Reformation of them . We now come to the remaining Enquiry , which is , Whether your Doctrine , or ours , tends more to the Churches peace ? For clearing of this , his Lordship premises these things by way of Considerations , 1. That there is n necessity of any such Infallibility in the Church , as was in the Apostles . 2. That what Infallibility or Authority belongs to the Church , doth primarily reside in the whole body of the Church , and not in a General Council . 3. That in case a General Council erre , the whole Church hath full Authority to represent her self in another Council , and so to redress what was amiss either practised , or concluded . And so upon these principles his Lordship saith , Here is a sufficient remedy for what is amiss , and yet no infringing any lawful Authority in the Church ; and yet he grants , as the Church of England doth , that a General Council may erre . But he saith , It doth not follow , because the Church may erre , therefore she may not govern . For the Church hath not only a Pastoral Power to teach and direct , but a Praetorian also , to controll and censure too where errours or crimes are against points fundamental , or of great consequence . Thus he represents the advantages which follow upon his opinion , after which he comes to the disadvantages of yours . But we must first consider , what you have to object against what his Lordship hath here delivered . To the first you say nothing , but that Stapleton and Bellarmin attribute more Infallibility to the Church , than his Lordship doth , which is an excellent way to prove the necessity of it , if you had first proved those two Authours Infallible . To the second , your Answer is more large ; for his Lordship to confirm what he said , That the power and authority given by Christ , lyes in the whole Church , produces that saying of S. Austin , That S. Peter did not receive the Keyes of the Church , but as sustaining the person of the Church ; from whence he proves against Stapleton , That it is not to be understood finally only for the good of the Church , but that the primary and formal right is in the Church . For he that receives a thing in the person of another , receives it indeed to his good and use , but in his right too . To this you answer from Bellarmin , That there is a twofold representing or bearing the person of another , The one Parabolical , and by way of meer figure and supposition only ; as Agar represented the people of the Jews under bondage of the Law , &c. The other historical and real , viz. when the person representing , has right or relation à parte rei , in and towards the thing represented , by vertue whereof , it bears the person of the thing represented : Now S. Peter , say you , sustained the person of the Church in this latter sense , really and historically , and not parabolically , and in figure , i. e. he received the Keyes as Head of the Church ; though that Reception were ordained for the good of the whole Church . But Sir , our enquiry is not , How many waies one may imagine a Representation to be made , but , What kind of Representation that is , which is suitable to S. Austin's meaning ? That there may be an Allegorical Representation , no body denies : but I cannot imagine , How it can belong to this place ; or , Who ever meant that S. Peter stood here for an Allegory of the Church , and therefore the members of your distinction are not apposite . For those who assert , that S. Peter did sustain the person of the Church , in his Lordships sense , do yet acknowledge that he did it historicè , and not parabolicè , as you speak , i. e. the donation was really made to him ; but then the Question is , In what right or capacity it was made to him , Whether in his personal or representative capacity ? For , these are the two only proper members of a distinction here . St. Austin saith , not only in that place , but in very many others , that S. Peter did sustain the person of the Church , when Christ said to him , I will give thee the Keyes of the Kingdom of Heaven ; Now the Question is , In what sense he sustained the person of the Church ? You say , In his own right as Head of the Church ; We say , As a publick person representing the Church , not parabolically ( for that is no sustaining the person at all ) but really and historically . And that S. Austin means , As a publick person , appears by the other expressions in the places cited , that he did universam significare Ecclesiam , signifie the whole Church ; and that those things which are spoken of Peter , Non habent illustrem intellectum nisi cum referuntur ad Ecclesiam cujus ille agnoscitur in figurâ gestâsse personam , Have no clear sense , but when they are referred to the Church , whose person he did bear . Can you say this of a King , who receives the Keyes of a Town , whereof he takes possession for himself , though it be for the good of the Kingdom ; that he signifies the whole Kingdom in it , and that it cannot have any clear sense , but when it is applied to the Kingdom which he represents ? No , this cannot be ; for the King takes possession in his own full right , and it is not the possession , but the administration , which is referred properly to the good of the Kingdom . But this might be properly said of a Duke of Venice , that he takes possession of a Town in the person of the State , and that the proper sense is , that the State took possession , and he only representing it . So that the full right lyes in the body of the State , but he as chief member represents the whole . And this is that which S. Austin means , when he saith , That S. Peter represented the Church , propter primatum , for the Primacy which he had amongst the Apostles , i e. such a Primacy of order , whereby he was fittest to represent the whole Church . For it is impossible to conceive that he should mean that S. Peter should receive this as Head of the Church , when you acknowledge that he was not Head of the Church , till after the Keyes were given him . For , you say , The performance of Christ's Promise , in making him Head of the Church , was not till after his resurrection . But , Will you say , the Church had no power of the Keyes till then ; and then only finally too , and not formally ? What became then of the power of the Keyes at S. Peters death , if only formally in him , and not in the Church ? What becomes of them at the death of every Pope ? Will you say , as Bellarmin doth , that Christ takes them , and gives them to his Successour ? But he must be sure to wait till the Cardinals agree , To whom he must give them . Nothing then could be further from S. Austin's meaning , than that S. Peter received the Keyes , as Head of the Church , and so , that he represented the Church only finally ; whereas his expressions carry it , that he means the formal right of them was conveyed to the Church , and that S. Peter was only a publick person , to receive them in the name of the Church . But , whatever S. Austin's meaning was , the strength of his Lordships assertion doth not stand or fall with that ; for there are arguments sufficient besides to prove , that the Authority for governing the Church , was not committed formally to S. Peter , much less to any pretended successour , but that it primarily and formally resides in the whole body of the Church . And , were that the thing to be here disputed , you must not think to take it for granted , that if the Keyes were given personally to S. Peter , by them was meant the Supreme Authority of governing the Church , exclusively of the other Apostles . To the third Consideration , you answer , That in case a General Council erre , there can be no redress for errour in Faith ; for if one Council may erre , so may another , and a third , and a fourth , &c. This indeed is very suitable to your Doctrine from the beginning , that a man can be certain of nothing but what it is impossible should be otherwise . I hope you are certain your self , you do not erre ; but I suppose you do not think it impossible you should : So , although we do not think it impossible , a Council should erre , yet we may be certain it doth not : and , supposing it should , we do not say , It is impossible that a Council should not erre , so that another Council may correct the errour of the former . And doubtless men may be certain of it too ; if , as his Lordship saith , plain Scripture , and evident demonstration be brought against the former errour . But these are strange Doctrines , that because a Council may erre , therefore a Council can never afford remedy against inconveniences . For , one great inconvenience is , the breaking the Churches peace : that , is remedied by the Councils Authority ; another is , errour in Faith , that may be remedied by another Council : No , say you , for that may erre too ; but , Doth it follow that it must erre ? or , Is it probable that it should erre ? if the former errour be so discovered , and the Council so proceed as his Lordship supposes . For your other difficulty about the calling another General Council , I have answered it already , when I shewed , what we meant by a General Council , and when it was lawfully call'd . When you after add , That the Church never represented her self in another Council but where the former Council was unlawful ; and instance in the Councils of Ariminum and Ephesus : you say the same which his Lordship doth , for these Councils were therefore accounted unlawful because erroneous and factious , and he never asserts the necessity of calling a new Council , but in those two cases . But if you would have us account none such , but whom you do , you must excuse us till we see greater reason for it then we do yet : and so likewise for what follows , that the Councils which rectified the errours of those were called by the Popes authority , as that of Trent and others were , which to speak mildly is a gross untruth . You urge from his Lordships granting , That the Church hath a Praetorian power to controul and censure too , where errours or crimes are against points Fundamental or of great consequence ; that therefore he and all Protestants are justly censured by the Roman Church for opposing those Doctrines which are with her Fundamental and of great consequence . But still there is no difference with you between the Roman Church and the Catholick ; between Papal Councils , and Free and General ; between what she judges Fundamental , and what all are bound to judge so . If you prove then , that we are bound to rely only on the judgement of your Church , your consequence is good ; but otherwise it is tyed with a rope of sand , and therefore we do not fear the lashes of it . And the same fault runs through your subsequent discourse , in which you suppose the Church Infallible in all she propounds , which you know is constantly denyed , and hath been at large disproved in our first Part. For , the ground of your resolution of Faith being removed , I see the Fabrick of your Church falls down with it . For take but away your pretence of Infallibility , and your confounding the Catholick and Roman Church ; all the rest moulders , as not being able to stand without them . But that is still your way , if any thing be said of the Catholick Church , we must presently understand it of yours ; so that it cannot be said in any sense that the Church is without spot or wrinkle , but by you it must be understood presently of the Doctrine of the Roman Catholick Church universally received as a matter of Faith : but till you prove not only your two former assertions , but that St. Austin understood those words ever in that sense , your vindication of that place in him concerning it , will appear utterly impertinent to your purpose . And his Lordships assertion may still stand good , That the Church on earth is not any freer from wrinkles in Doctrine and Discipline , then she is from spots in life and Conversation . Having thus vindicated his Lordships way from the objections you raised against it , we must now consider how well you vindicate your own from the unreasonableness he charges it with , in several particulars . 1. That if we suppose a General Council Infallible , and it prove not so , but that an errour in Faith be concluded ; the same erring opinion , which makes it think it self Infallible , makes the errour of it irrevocable , and so leaves the Church without remedy . To this you Answer , Grant false antecedents and false premises enow , and what absurdities will not be consequent , and fill up the conclusion ? But you clearly mistake the present business ; which is not , Whether Councils be Infallible or no ? but , Whether opinion be lyable to greater Inconveniencies , that which asserts that they may , or that they cannot , err ? Will you have your supposition of the Infallibility of Councils taken for a first principle , or a thing as true as the Scriptures ? So you would seem indeed , by the supposing the Scriptures not to be Gods Word , which you subjoyn as the parallel , to the supposing General Councils fallible . But will you say the one is as evident and built on as good reason , and as much agreed on among Christians , as the other is ? I suppose , you will not : and therefore it was very absurd & unreasonable to say , Supposing the Word of God were not so , errours would be irrevocable , as if General Councils were supposed Infallible and proved not so . But this is a Question you grant to be disputable among Christians , and will you not give us leave to make a supposition that it may prove not so ? You must consider , we are now enquiring into the conveniencies of these two opinions , and in that case it is necessary to make such suppositions : And let any reasonable man judge what opinion can be more pernicious to the Church then yours is , supposing it not to be true : for then it will be necessary for men to assent to the grossest errours , as the most Divine and Infallible truths : and there can be no remedy imagin'd for the redress of them . If then the Inconvenience of admitting it be so great , men had need look well to the grounds on which it is built . And I cannot see any reason men can have to admit any Infallible proponent in matters of Faith to the Church , but on as great and as clear evidence , as the Prophets and Apostles had , that they were sent from God. For the danger may be as great to believe that to be Infallible which is not , as not to believe that to be Infallible which is : for the believing an errour to be a Divine truth , may be as dangerous to the souls of men , as the not believing something which is really revealed by God. But to be sure , those who see no reason to believe a General Council to be Infallible , cannot be obliged to assent to errours propounded by it ; but such who believe it Infallible must what ever the errours be , swallow them down , without questioning the truth of them . And it argues how conscious you are of the falseness of your principles , that you are so loath to have them examined , or so much as a supposition made that they should not prove true : Whereas truth alwayes invites men to the most accurate search into it . We see the Apostles bid men search , whether the things they spake were true or no ; and those are most commended who did it most , and I hope men were as much bound to believe them Infallible as General Councils . But we see how unreasonable you are , you would obtrude such things upon mens Faith , which must lead them into unavoidable errours if false , and yet not allow men the liberty of examination , whether they be true or no. But such proceedings are so far from advancing your cause , that nothing can more prejudice it among rational and inquisitive men . His Lordship for the clearing this , proceeds to an Instance of an errour defined by one of your General Councils , viz. Communion in one kind ; but that we shall reserve the discussion of , to the ensuing Chapter ; which is purposely allotted for the discovery of those errours which have been defined by such as you call General Councils . Therefore I proceed . 2. His Lordship saith , Your opinion is yet more unreasonable , because no Body-collective , whensoever it assembled it self , did ever give more power to the representing body of it , then a binding power upon it self and all particulars ; nor ever did it give this power otherwise , then with this reservation in nature , that it would call again , and reform , and , if need were , abrogate any Law , or ordinance upon just cause made evident that the representing Body had failed in trust , or truth . And this power no Body-collective , ecclesiastical or civil , can put out of it self , or give away to a Parliament , or Council , or call it what you will that represents it . To this again you Answer , This is only to suppose and take for granted , that a General Council hath no Authority , but what is meerly delegate from the Church Vniversal which it represents . I grant , this is supposed in it , and this is all which the nature of a representative body doth imply ; if you say , there is more then that , you are bound to prove it . Yes , say you , We maintain its Authority to be of Divine Institution , and when lawfully assembled to act by Divine right , and not meerly by deputation and consent of the Church . But if all the proof you have for it , be only that which you refer us to in the precedent Chapter , the palpable weakness of it for any such purpose hath been there fully laid open . His Lordship saith , That the power which a Council hath to order , settle and define differences arising concerning Faith , it hath not by any Immediate Institution from Christ , but it was prudently taken up by the Church from the Apostles example . So that to hold Councils to this end , is apparent Apostolical Tradition written : but the power which Councils have , is from the whole Catholick Church , whose members they are , and the Churches power from God. You say , True it is , the calling such assemblies was taken up , and hath for its pattern the example of the Apostles , Act. 15. yet surely there is little doubt to be made , but the Apostles had both direction and precept too , for doing it so often as just occasion required , from Christ himself . The whole force of which Answer lyes in those well placed words , Surely there is little doubt to be made ; for as to any thing of reason , you never offer at it . Just such another of Bellarmins Sine dubio's comes after ; Though a General Council be the Church representative , and do not meet , or assemble together hic & nunc , but by order and deputation from man ; yet it follows not , but the power and authority by which they act when they are met may be from God , as doubtless it is . Can any man have the face to question , Whether the Authority of General Councils be of Divine Institution or no , when you say , Yes surely , there is no doubt to be made of it , doubtless it is ? We do not question , as you would seem to imply afterwards , Whether the people or the Pastours have right to send to General Councils , but what ground you have to assert , that General Councils are an immediate Divine Institution . But I must needs say , I never saw any thing affirmed oftener , and offered to be proved less , then that is here : and yet as though you had done it invincibly you triumphantly proceed ; General Councils then , are a principal and necessary part of that Ecclesiastical Hierarchy which Christ instituted for the Government of his Church , and not an humane Expedient only , taken up by the Church her self meerly upon prudential considerations , as the Bishop will needs conceive . It strangely puzzles me to find out any thing that Particle then relates to ; and after all my search can find nothing , but surely , without doubt , and doubtless . I pray Sir , think not so meanly of us , that we should take these for Arguments or Demonstrations : Deal fairly with us , and if we fall by the force of reason , we yield our selves up to you . But you are very much deceived , if you think these things are taken for proofs with us : we can easily discern the weakness of your cause through the most confident affirmations . If you had brought any Law of Christ , appointing that General Councils should be in the Church , any Apostolical precept , prescribing or giving directions concerning them , you had done something ; but , not so much as to offer at a proof , and yet conclude it as confidently as if it were impossible to resist the force of your Demonstrations , is an evidence , that either you know your cause to be weak , or suppose us to be so . Much such another discourse is that which follows , wherein you pretend to give a reason , Why what is defined by one Council in point of Doctrine cannot be reversed by another . Which is , because the true Christian Faith is ex natura rei unchangeable , that it admits not of yea and nay , but only yea ; that it is alwayes the same , that it must stand without alteration for ever , nay that it is to be invariable and admit no change . All these expressions we have in one Paragraph , and , for all that I see , are the greatest strength of it . But what is it you mean by all this ? Do you think we could not understand what you meant by the unchangeableness of Christian Faith , without so many diversified expressions of it ? And what follows now from all this ? That one Council cannot repeal the Decrees of another ? How so ? was not the Faith of Christ as unchangeable in the time of the Arrian Councils , as it is now ? and yet then one Council repealed the Decrees of others , in point of Doctrine ; and yet by that nothing was derogated from the Institution or honour of Christ , by such a reversing those Decrees . Though the Faith , i. e. The Doctrine of Christ , be alwayes the same , Doth it thence follow ; then men shall alwayes believe all this unalterable Doctrine ? If so , how came Arrianism to overspread the Church ? How came six hundred Bishops at the Council of Ariminum to be deceived in a Doctrine of Faith , by your own confession ? It is therefore a profound mistake , to infer from the fallibility of General Councils the alteration of the Faith of Christ. The Faith of Christ is founded on a surer bottom then the Decrees of Councils , though all men are lyars God is true , and Christ the same yesterday , to day , and for ever . But of this more afterwards . You would seem to argue more pertinently in the following pages against his Lordships opinion : for you say , He sayes and unsayes the same ; and what he seems to attribute to General Councils in one proposition , he takes away in another . That which his Lordship sayes , is , That the definitions of a General Council are binding to all particulars , and it self ; but yet so , that they cannot bind the whole Church from calling again , and in the after-calls upon just cause to order , and , if need be , to abrogate former acts . And after adds , And because the whole Church can meet no other way , the Council shall remain the Supream , external , living , temporary , Ecclesiastical Judge of all Controversies . Only the whole Church , and she alone , hath power when Scripture or Demonstration is found , and peaceably tendered to her , to represent her self again in a new Council , and in it to order what was amiss . Now we must consider what we find contradictious and repugnant to themselves in these words : Three things , if I mistake not , the main of this charge may be reduced to , 1. That men should be bound to that which Scripture and Demonstration be against ; But this is very easily answered , for his Lordship doth not say , Men are bound to believe it , but not so to oppose it as to break the peace of the Church by it . 2. That another Council cannot be call'd without opposition to the other : this his Lordship prevented , by supposing that the just reasons against the decrees of the former Council ought to be peaceably tendred to the Church ; but no boisterous opposition to be made against it . 3. To what purpose should another Council be call'd , if the whole Church be satisfied that there is Scripture and Demonstration against the decrees of the former ? But , 1. His Lordship supposes there may Scripture and Demonstration be , where the whole Church is not satisfied ; and therefore there may be necessity of calling another Council . 2. That the Council may free all those who may suppose themselves still bound not to oppose the former errour . 3. That no erroneous Decree of a Council , may remain unrepealed in the Church : that so no erroneous person may challenge such a Decree of a Council , as a ground for his opposition to the Doctrine of the Church . And where now lyes any such appearance of contradiction in his Lordships words ? 3. The last thing his Lordship chargeth your way with unreasonableness in , is , That you do not only make the definition of a General Council , but the sentence of the Pope Infallible ; nay , more Infallible than it . For , any General Council may erre with you , if the Pope confirm it not . So belike this Infallibility rests not in the representative body , the Council , nor in the whole body the Church , but in your Head of the Church , the Pope of Rome . And if this be so , To what end such a trouble for a General Council ? or , Where in are we neerer to unity , if the Pope confirm it not ? To this you answer , 1. That a General Council is not held by you to be Infallible at all , unless it involve the Pope , or his Confirmation ; and so there is but one Infallibility , viz. of the Pope presiding in , and confirming of the votes of a General Council . 2. You confess there are two different Opinions among you ; the first and more common is , that the Pope , even without a General Council , is Infallible in his definitions of Faith , when he teaches the whole Church ; the second is , that he is not Infallible in his definitions , save only where he defines in , and with , a General Council . Now the Bishop ( you say ) takes no notice of the second Opinion , but only of the first , as though that were the Opinion of all Catholick Doctors . But , for your part , you will not meddle much with any matters of private Opinion or dispute , and therefore you will briefly pass over what his Lordship saith further , and only correct some mistakes of his . But whereas you pretend it only necessary to believe , that Pope and Council together are Infallible , for this all Catholicks are agreed in ; but , whether the Pope be Infallible without a Council or no , you leave it as matter of dispute . I shall manifest , how great a cheat you put upon the world by this Assertion , in these two things , 1. That there is no such agreement among your selves in this common principle , as you pretend . 2. That from the making the Popes Confirmation necessary to the Infallibility of the Council , you must make the Pope Infallible without a Council . 1. Whereas you pretend such a consent among all Catholicks in this common principle , That Pope and Council are Infallible together , it is evident that there is no such thing . For , 1. Some among you have asserted , that the representative body of the Church is not at all the subject of Infallibility , but the diffusive . For Occham contends at large , That the priviledge of Infallibility , belongs only to the whole Militant Church ; and neither to the Pope , nor General Council , nor body of the Clergy . And so likewise doth Petrus de Alliaco , Cusanus , Antoninus of Florence , Panormitan , Nicolaus de Clemangis , Franciscus Mirandula , and others , whose words you may find at large in some of your Writers , and therefore I forbear repeating them . 2. Some assert , that Councils are no further Infallible , than they adhere to Vniversal Tradition ; and you cannot be ignorant , who they are at this day among you , who assert this doctrine . 3. Some further say , That Councils are in themselves Infallible , and therefore must be so , whether the Pope confirm them or no. And this opinion , however now you say , it be not so common as the other , yet it is certain , that before the Council of Lateran under Leo 10. it was much the more common opinion , as appears by the Councils of Constance and Basil. And , that there is an irreconcilable difference between the Authours of this Opinion , and those who make the Popes Confirmation necessary to the Infallibility of a General Council , I shall prove out of Bellarmin himself , from the state of the Question , and the Arguments he urges against it . Bellarmin tells us , The first occasion of this Controversie , was about the deposition of Popes , viz. whether the Pope might against his consent be judged , condemned , and deposed by the Council : and therefore , saith he , They are mistaken , who think the Question is , Whether the Council with the Pope be greater than the Pope without a Council ? for , it cannot be conceived he should give consent to his own deposition . And this he proves from the Council at Basil , who defined their Council to be above the Pope , at that time , when neither the Pope , nor his Legats were present . And this Council of Basil in their Synodal Epistle , declare a General Council , as representing the Vniversal Church , to be Infallible , when at the same time they assert , That Popes have fallen into Heresie . Now , Can any one possibly imagine , these men should believe the Popes Confirmation to be necessary to the Councils Infallibility , who suppose the Pope may be an Heretick at the same time , in which a Council may be Infallible ? And when they assert it to belong to the Council only to pronounce , Whether the Pope be guilty of Heresie or no ? Those therefore who contend for the Councils Authority above the Pope , do not at all look at the Popes Confirmation , as necessary to make the Decrees Infallible ; though some of them may , to make them Canonical . For there lyes one of your fallacies ; because they look on the Pope as Ministerial Head of the Church , therefore to make Canons to be valid , they may judge it in most cases necessary that the Pope confirm the Decrees ; but yet , they do not suppose this Confirmation doth at all make them Infallible ; but , whether the Pope had confirmed them or no , they had been Infallible however . So that you cannot say , That it is a principle of Faith among you , that Pope and Council together are Infallible ; for those of this opinion make it a principle of Faith , that the Council in it self is Infallible , and consequently , whether it be confirmed by the Pope or no. And therefore Bellarmin saith , Their opinion is , That in case the Pope be dead , deposed , or refuseth to come to the Council , the Council is not at all the less perfect , but that it hath full power to make definitions in matters of Faith. And when he comes to urge against this Opinion , one of his arguments is , that from hence it follows , That the Council would not at all need the Popes Confirmation ; and another , That Councils without the Pope may erre in Decrees of Faith ; for which he instanceth in the Councils of Sirmium , Milan , Ariminum , Ephesus , &c. Neither , saith he , can it be answered , that these Councils erred , because they were unlawful Councils ; for the most of them wanted nothing but the Popes consent , and the second Ephesine Council was just such another as that of Basil. From which disputation of Bellarmin , it is both clear , that those who make Councils above the Pope , do not judge the Popes Confirmation necessary ; and those who judge it necessary , do not suppose the Council Infallible without it . So that you are either deceived your self , or would deceive others , when you would make them believe that there is but one Infallibility asserted by you , whereas nothing can be more evident , than that two distinct subjects of Infallibility are asserted in your Church , some placing it in the Council without the Pope , and others in the Pope , and not in the Council , and neither of them absolutely and formally in the Pope and Council together . 2. I shall therefore more fully shew , That those who make the Popes Confirmation necessary , do really place the Infallibility in the Pope , and not in the Council ; and that from these things , 1. Because they in terms assert , That though nothing be wanting to a Council , but the Popes Confirmation , it may erre , if the Pope confirm it not . And this we produced Bellarmins assertion for already , giving that as the only reason , why those Councils did erre , which wanted nothing but that . Nay , he elsewhere asserts , Not only that General Councils may erre , though the Pope confirm them not , but although the Popes Legats be present , and consent with the Council , yet if they do not follow the certain instruction of the Pope , the Council may erre . And , Can any one then possibly conceive , that the Infallibility lyes any where but in the Pope ? 2. You assert , That all the Power and Infallibility which is in the Church , is formally in the Pope , and only finally in the Church , because it is for the good of the Church ; this I suppose you have not forgot , since you told us , that S. Peter sustained the person of the Church historicè , and not parabolicè , and that the fulness of all Ecclesiastical Power was in him as Head of the Church : If this be true , as there you assert it confidently , whatever you pretend here , you are bound to defend , that all the Infallibility in the Council comes wholly from the Pope ; for I know you will not place Infallibility in one , and the fulness of Ecclesiastical Power in another . 3. Because the main ground of the reprobating Councils lyes in the Popes dissent . So that Councils which in all other particulars are accounted lawful and general , yet if any thing passed displeasing in them to the Pope , so far they are reprobated ; as the proceedings of the Council of Chalcedon , Constance , and Basil , in reference to the Popes , do sufficiently testifie . For , although they were the same persons , acting with equal freedom in those , as in other things , yet when they came to touch any thing of the Popes Interess , then , because the Pope doth not consent , so far they were not Infallible . By which it is plain , that , though the Council stands for a shew and blind to the world , all the Infallibility lyes wholly in the Pope . And by this means , to be sure , the Pope shall never receive any hurt by General Councils ; for if he pleases , the Council shall either be approved or rejected , or partly approved , and partly rejected ; or neither approved , nor rejected ; for of all these sorts Bellarmin tells us Councils are : which in short is , The Councils which make for the Popes turn , are Infallible , but none other . And therefore Bellarmin , very consonantly to his principles , sayes expresly , Totam firmitatem Conciliorum legitimorum esse à Pontifice , non partim à Pontifice , partim à Concilio ; The whole strength of lawful Councils depends wholly on the Pope , and not partly on the Pope , and partly on the Council . And if their firmness doth , their Infallibility must do so too . This is not a meer private opinion of his , but that which doth necessarily follow , from the making the Popes Confirmation necessary to the Infallibility of General Councils . Although therefore you would fain put off this as a matter of dispute among your selves ; yet it can be no matter of dispute any more , than , Whether the Decrees of Councils , as confirmed by the Pope , be Infallible or no ? And therefore all that his Lordship objects , falls upon all such who assert this : Whereof the first which you mention is , That then the Council is called but only in effect , to hear the Pope give his Sentence in more state . To which you answer , That the Objection hath the same force against the Council called in the Apostles time , viz. that it was done ; only to hear S. Peter pronounce his Sentence in more state . Neither had it been any more , if the Infallibility of the Council had only depended on S. Peter's Sentence : but I hope you will not deny the rest of the Apostles to have been as Infallible as S. Peter was . But you answer , 2. That the Pope being to use all means morally requisite to find out the truth ; the Council is called really to help and assist the Pope ; and the advice of the Council is a necessary Medium to his Holiness , whereby to make a full inspection into the matters he is to define . But all this only confirms what his Lordship saith , That it is for his giving Sentence in more state ; for the Council is only a subservient means , and contributes nothing at all to the Infallibility of the Sentence . But , you say , They are a necessary Medium . 1. Then the Pope cannot define any matter of Faith without a General Council . Which , all who assert that Opinion , utterly deny ; for , they say , The Pope may define matters of Faith without a General Council ; and Bellarmin saith , That the state of the Church , without General Councils ( which was for three hundred years ) might have continued so to the worlds end ; and therefore it was necessary there should be a living Judge , whose Infallibility should not depend upon any Council : And elsewhere he sayes , That if seven Heresies have been condemned by seven General Councils ; more than a hundred have been condemned without , by the Pope and Provincial Councils . 2. Though the Pope must use all moral means , yet , Why must a General Council be that necessary Medium ? Why may not a Provincial , or lesser Council serve turn ? And so Bellarmin tells you , it would ; he saith , indeed some kind of Council is necessary , magnum aut parvum , unum vel plura , prou●t ipse judicaverit , great or little , more or less , as the Pope shall judge fitting ; so that still a General Council is but a piece of state , for all moral means might be used without one . 3. What use are these moral means for ? to enable him to pass a right judgement , or no ? If they be , then the Pope is bound to pronounce according to the Decree of the Council , and so it will not be in his power , not to confirm it ; if not , What do these moral means signifie ? No more , then the Crucifix Pope Innocent shewed to Monsieur de Saint-Amour ; Before which , he told him , he kneeled down to take at the feet thereof his resolution , according to the inspiration given to him by the Holy Spirt , whose assistance was promised to him , and could not fail him . We see , the Pope understood his Infallibility better , than to make use of such moral means as Councils are ; he knew his Infallibility came not that way , and therefore he took the more likely course to receive his Inspiration from Heaven , by taking his resolution at the feet of a Crucifix . And this he called , his Council in matters of Faith : And yet , if we believe him , he did as much want all moral means for finding out the truth , as another ; since he so ingenuously confessed at another audience , That he was old , and had never studied Divinity . But , What need he to do it , that could so easily be inspired , by kneeling at the feet of a Crucifix ? Your Doctrine then would not be very well taken at Rome , that General Councils are a necessary Medium to his Holiness , in order to the definition of matters of Faith. No more would your following Distinction in vindication of Stapleton , That though the Pope acquires no new power , or certainty of judgement by the presence of a General Council , and there is something thereby , which conduceth to the due exercise of that power : So that it must be an usurpation or undue exercise of power , for the Pope to offer to define without a General Council . I know not what liberty you have to write these things among us ; but if you were at Rome , you durst not venture to do it . Your saying , that Bellarmin only sayes , That the firmness of a Council in regard of us , depends wholly on the Popes Confirmation , argues , you had very little to say : For , What firmness hath a Council at all in this dispute , but in regard of us ; since you look on men as obliged to believe the Decrees of it Infallible ? And , if the Decrees had any Infallibility from the Council , that might make them firm in regard of us , as well as the Pope . But you object to your self , That if the Pope be Infallible without the Council , and the Council subject to errour without the Pope , it must needs follow , that all the Infallibility of General Councils proceeds from the Pope only ; not partly from the Pope , and partly from the Council . To which you answer , That the assertors of that Opinion ( of whom you must be one , if you know what you say ) may say , that Christ hath made two promises to his Church , the one to assist her Soveraign Head and Pastor to make him Infallible , another to assist General Councils to make them so . But , What need this latter , if the former be well proved ? For if the Head be Infallible by vertue of a promise from Christ , he must be Infallible , whether in Council , or out of it . And therefore it is a ridiculous shift to say , The Pope hath one promise to make him Infallible in a General Council ; ano-to make him so out of it . But I commend you , that since you thought one would not hold , you would have two strings for the Popes Infallibility . And it is but adding a third promise to the Church in general , and then your threefold cord may be surely Infallible . You give many Reasons ( but none so convincing as Experience ) Why the Popes should not be Impeccable ; and , if you search Scripture , Antiquity , and Reason , you may find as much , why he should not be Infallible . For that of the necessity of one , and not the other for the Church , is of your own devising , it having been sufficiently proved , that the certainty of Faith doth not at all depend upon the Popes , or your Churches , or Councils Infallibility . And it seems still very strange to all who know the doctrine and promises of Christianity , and that the promotion of Holiness is the great design of it , and that Faith signifies nothing without Obedience , and that the Spirit of God is a Spirit of Holiness , as well as Truth , that you dare challenge such an assistance of the Divine Spirit , as may make your Popes Infallible , who have led lives quite contrary to the Gospel of Christ. Nay , such lives , as his Lordship saith , as no Epicurean Monster , storied out to the world , hath out-gone them in sensuality , or other gross impiety , if their own historians be true . Your vindication of Pope Liberius his submitting his judgement to Athanasius , because the Pope had passed no definition ex Cathedrâ in the business , hath no strength at all , unless you first prove , that the Popes definitions ex Cathedrâ , were held Infallible , then which none would ever believe that read the passage , which his Lordship cites out of Liberius his Epistle to Athanasius . For , as he saith , The Pope complemented exceeding low , that would submit his unerring judgement , to be commanded by Athanasius , who he well knew could erre . Whether S. Ambrose in his Epistle meddles with any doctrinal definitions , or only with some difficulties which that year happened about the observation of Easter , ( the fourteenth of the first month falling on the Lords day ) is not very material to our purpose . But that it was something else besides Astronomical definitions ( which I know what S. Ambrose's excellency was in ) might easily appear , if you had read the Epistle . So that you might have spared your large account of the Paschal Letters sent by the Bishops of Alexandria about the keeping of Easter ( which are no great novelties to such , who are at all acquainted with Antiquity ) and given us a fuller account , why in such a matter of dispute about the right of the day to be kept that year , the Roman Bishops should not rather have stood to the Popes definition , than write to S. Ambrose , if it had been then taken for granted , that the Pope was Infallible . But I might as well have passed by this testimony of S. Ambrose , as you do that of Lyra , which is so express for the Erring and Apostatizing of several Popes , that you thought the best Answer to it , were to let it alone . However you come off with the story of Peter Lombard ( which is not of that consequence to require any further examination of the truth of it ) I am sure you are hard put to it , in the case of Honorius ; when you deny , that Honorius did really maintain the Monothelites Heresie , and excuse the Councils , Sentence , by saying , it was only in case of mis-information . Since it manifestly appears by the sixth Synod , action . 13. that they condemned his Epistle written to Sergius , as containing heretical and pernicious Doctrine in it . And in the seventh Synod he is reckoned up with Arrius , Macedonius , Eutyches , Dioscorus , and the rest of condemned Hereticks , among whom he is likewise reckoned by Leo 2. in his Epistle to Constantine . Which evidence is so great , that Canus wonders at those who would offer to vindicate him . And , in the mean time , you provide excellent moral means for the Pope to judge of matters of Faith by , in General Councils , if they may be guilty of so gross mis-information , as you suppose here in the case of Honorius ; and not one barely , but three successively , the sixth , seventh , and eighth , and the whole Church from their time , till Albertus Pighius , who first began to defend him . For conclusion of this point , his Lordship would fain know ( since this had been so plain , so easie a way , either to prevent all divisions about the Faith , or to end all Controversies , did they arise ) why this brief , but most necessary proposition , The Bishop of Rome cannot erre in his judicial determinations concerning Faith , is not to be found either in letter or sense , in any Scripture , in any Council , or in any Father of the Church , for the full space of a thousand years and more after Christ ? To this you answer , 1. That in the sense wherein Catholicks maintain the Popes Infallibility to be a matter of necessary belief to all Christians it is found ( for sense ) both in Scripture , Councils , and Fathers , as you say you have proved , in proving the Infallibility of General Councils , of which he is the most principal and necessary member . So then , when we enquire for the Infallibility of General Councils , we are sent to the Pope for his Confirmation to make them so ; but when we enquire for the Popes Infallibility , we are sent back again to the Councils , for the proof of it . And they are hugely to blame , if they give not an ample testimony to the Pope , since he can do them as good a turn . But , between them both , we see the greatest reason to believe neither the one , nor the other to be Infallible . But , 2. You would offer at something too for his personal Infallibility ; in which I highly commend your prudence , that you say , You will omit Scripture ; and you might as well have omitted all that follows , since you say only , That the testimonies you have produced , seem to do it in effect ; and at last say , That it is an Assertion you have wholly declined the maintaining of , and judge it expedient to do so still . And you may very well do so , if there be no better proofs for it than those you have produced , but however , we must examine them . Doth not the Council of Chalcedon seem to say , in effect , that the Pope is Infallible , when , upon the reading of his Epistle to them , in condemnation of the Eutychian Heresie , the whole Assembly of Prelates cry out with acclamation , and profess that S. Peter ( who was Infallible ) spake by the mouth of Leo , and that the Pope was interpreter of the Apostles voice ? You do well to use those cautious expressions of seeming to say in effect , for it would be a very hard matter to imagine any such thing as the Popes Infallibility in the highest expressions used by the Council of Chalcedon . For , after the reading of Leo's Epistle against Eutyches , and many testimonies of the Fathers to the same purpose , the Council begins their acclamations , with these words , This is the Faith of the Fathers , this is the Faith of the Apostles ; all who are orthodox hold thus . And after it follows , Peter by Leo hath thus spoken , the Apostles have taught thus . Which are all the words there extant to that purpose . And , Is not this a stout argument , for the Popes personal Infallibility ? For , What else do they mean , but only that Leo , who succeeded in the Apostolical See of S. Peter at Rome , did concurr in Faith with S. Peter , and the rest of the Apostles ? But , Do they say , that it was impossible that Leo should erre , or that his judgement was Infallible ? or only that he owned that Doctrine which was Divine and Apostolical ? And the Council of Ephesus ( your next testimony ) hath much less than this , even nothing at all . For the Council speaks not concerning S. Peter , or the Pope in the place by you cited ; only one of the Popes officious Legats , Philip , begins very formally , with S. Peter's being Prince and Head of the Apostles , &c. and that he to this day 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; lives in his successours , and passeth judgement . Is it not a very good Inference from hence , that the Council acknowledged the Popes personal Infallibility ? because one of the Popes Legats did assert in the Council , that S. Peter lived and judged by the Pope . And yet , Might not this be done without his personal Infallibility , in regard of his succession in that See which was founded by S. Peter ? But you are very hard driven , when you are fain to take up with the Sentence of a Roman Priest , instead of a General Council , and any judgement in matters of Faith , instead of Infallibility . Your other testimonies of S. Hierom , S. Augustine , and S. Cyprian , have been largely examined already ; and for the remaining testimonies of four Popes , you justly fear it would be answered , that they were Popes , and spake partially in their own cause . And you give us no antidote against these fears ; but conclude very warily , That you had hitherto declined the defence of that Assertion , and professed that it would be sufficient for Protestants to acknowledge the Pope Infallible in , and with General Councils only . But , as we see no reason to believe General Councils at all Infallible , whether with , or without the Pope ; so neither can we see , but if the Infallibility of the Council depends on the Popes Confirmation , you are bound to defend the Popes personal Infallibility , as the main Bulwark of your Church . CHAP. III. Of the errours of pretended General Councils . The erroneous Doctrine of the Church of Rome in making the Priests intention necessary to the essence of Sacraments . That principle destructive to all certainty of Faith upon our Authours grounds . The absurdity of asserting that Councils define themselves to be Infallible . Sacramental actions sufficiently distinguished from others without the Priests Intention . Of the moral assurance of the Priests Intention , and the insufficiency of a meer virtual Intention . The Popes confirmation of Councils supposeth personal Infallibility . Transubstantiation an errour decreed by Pope and Council . The repugnancy of it to the grounds of Faith. The Testimonies brought for it out of Antiquity examin'd at large , and shewed to be far from proving Transubstantiation . Communion in one kind a violation of Christs Institution . The Decree of the Council of Constance implyes a non obstante to it . The unalterable nature of Christs Institution cleared . The several evasions considered and answered . No publick Communion in one kind for a thousand years after Christ. The indispensableness of Christs Institution owned by the Primitive Church . Of Invocation of Saints , and the Rhetorical expressions of the Fathers which gave occ●sion to it . No footsteps of the Invocation of Saints in the three first Centuries ; nor precept or example in Scripture as our Adversaries confess . Evidences against Invocation of Saints from the Christians Answers to the Heathens . The worship of Spirits and Heroes among the Heathens justifiable on the same grounds that Invocation of Saints is in the Church of Rome . Commemoration of the Saints without Invocation , in S. Augustins time . Invocation of Saints as practised in the Church of Rome a derogation to the merits of Christ. Of the worship of Images and the near approach to Pagan Idolatry therein . No Vse or Veneration of Images in the Primitive Church . The Church of Rome justly chargeable with the abuses committed in the worship of Images . ALthough nothing can be more unreasonable then to pretend that Church , Person , or Council to be Infallible , which we can prove to have actually erred ; yet we have yielded so much to you , as to disprove what you have in general brought for the one , before we come to meddle with the other . But that being dispatched , we come to a more short and compendious way of overthrowing your Infallibility , by shewing the palpable falsity of such principles which must be owned by you as Infallible truths , because defined by General Councils confirmed by the Pope . Whereof , The first in the Endictment , as you say , is that of the Priests Intention defined by the Councils of Florence and Trent ( both of them confirmed by the Pope ) to be essentially necessary to the validity of a Sacrament . Concerning this , there are two things to be enquired into , 1. Whether this doth not render all pretence of Infallibility with you a vain and useless thing ? 2. Whether it be not in it self an errour ? We must begin with the first of these , for that was the occasion of his Lordships entering upon it ; for he was shewing , That your claim of Infallibility is of no use at all , for the settling of Truth and Peace in the Church ; because no man can either know or believe this Infallibility . It cannot be believed with Divine Faith ; having no foundation either in the written Word of God , or Tradition of the Catholick Church ; and no humane Faith can be sufficient in order to it . But neither can it be believed or known , upon that decree of the Councils of Florence and Trent , that the intention of the Priest is necessary to the validity of a Sacrament . And , lest you should think I represent his Lordships words too much with advantage , I will take his Argument in the words you have summed it up in , which are these : Before the Church or any particular man can make use of the Popes Infallibility ( that is , be settled , and confirmed in the Truth by means thereof ) , he must either know , or upon sure grounds believe , that he is Infallible . But ( sayes the Bishop ) this can only be believed of him , as he is S. Peters Successour and Bishop of Rome ; of which it is impossible , in the relatours opinion , for the Church or any particular man , to have such certainty as is sufficient to ground an Infallible belief . Why ? because the knowledge and belief of this , depends upon his being truly in Orders , truly a Bishop , truly a Priest , truly Baptized ; none of all which , according to our principles , can be certainly known and believed ; because ( forsooth ) the intention of him that administred these Sacraments to the Pope , or made him Bishop , Priest , &c. can never be certainly known ; and yet by the Doctrine of the Councils of Florence and Trent , it is of absolute necessity to the validity of every one of these Sacraments , so as without it , the Pope were neither Bishop nor Priest. Thus I grant you have faithfully sum'd up his Lordships Argument ; we must now see with what courage and success you encounter it . Your first Answer is , That though it be level'd against the Popes Infallibility , yet it hath the same force against the Infallibility of the whole Church in points fundamental ; for we cannot be Infallibly sure , there is such a number of Baptized persons to make a Church . By this , we see how likely you are to assoil this difficulty , who bring it more strongly upon your self , without the least inconvenience to your adversary . For I grant , it necessarily follows against the pretence of any Infallibility , whether in Church , Councils , or Pope , as being a certain ground for Faith ; for all these must suppose such a certainty of the due administration of Sacraments , which your Doctrine of Intention doth utterly destroy . For these two things are your principles of Faith , that there can be no certainty of Faith , without present Infallibility of the Church ; and that , in order to the believing this testimony Infallible , there must be such a certainty as is ground sufficient for an Infallible belief . Now , How is it possible there can be such , when there can be no certainty of the Being of a Church , Council , or Pope , from your own principles ? For when the only way of knowing this , is a thing not possible to be evidenced to any one in any way of Infallible certainty , viz. the intention of the Priest , you must unavoidably destroy all your pretence of Infallibility . For , To what purpose do you tell me , that Pope or Councils are Infallible , unless I may be Infallibly sure that such decrees were passed by Pope and Council ? I cannot be assured of that , unless I be first assured that they were Baptized persons , and Bishops of the Church ; and for this you dare not offer at Infallible certainty , and therefore all the rest is useless and vain . So that while by this Doctrine of the intention of the Priest for the validity of the Sacraments , you thought to advance higher the reputation of the Priesthood , and to take away the assurance of Protestants , as to the benefits which come by the use of the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper , you could not have asserted any thing more really pernicious to your selves , than this Doctrine is . So strange an incogitancy was it in those Councils to define it , and as great in those who defend it , and yet at the same time , maintain the necessity of a present Infallibility in the Church and General Councils . For can any thing be more rational , then to desire the highest assurance as to that , whose decrees I am to believe Infallible ? And yet at the last , you confess we can have but a moral certainty of it , and that of the lowest degree ; the utmost ground of it , being either the testimony of the Priest himself , or , that we have no ground to suspect the contrary . Now what unreasonable men are you , who so much to the dishonour of Christian Religion cry out upon the rational evidence of the truth of it , as an uncertain principle , and that Protestants though they assert the highest degree of actual certainty , cannot have any Divine Faith , because they want the Churches Infallible testimony ? and yet when we enquire into this Infallible Testimony , you are fain to resolve it , into one of the most uncertain and conjectural things imaginable . For what can I have less ground to build my Faith upon , than that the Priest had at least a virtual intention to do as the Church doth ? Whom must I believe in this case ? and whereon must that Faith be grounded ? On the Priests Testimony ? But how can I be assured , but that he , who may wander in his intention , may do so in his expression too ? Or must I do it because I have no reason to suspect the contrary ? how can you assure me of that , that I have no reason to suspect the contrary ? no otherwise then by telling me , that the Priest is a man of that honesty and integrity , that he cannot be supposed to do such a thing without intention ? So that , though I were in Italy or Spain , where , some have told us , it is no hard matter to meet with Jews in Priests habits , and professing themselves such , and acting accordingly ; yet I am bound to believe ( though they heartily believe nothing of Christianity ) yet in all Sacraments they must have an intention to do as the Church doth . Without which , we are told by you , No Sacrament can be valid , because the matter and form cannot be determin'd or united without the Priests intention . And therefore I do not only object , that this takes away the comfort of all Sacraments as to the receivers , but that it destroyes all certain Foundations of Faith. Because the promises of Infallibility supposing that , which I can have no assurance of ; that Infallibility can be no foundation of Faith at all to me . As for instance , suppose the title to an estate depends upon the Kings free donation , and this donation to be confirmed by his Great Seal ; but yet so , that if the Lord Chancellour in the sealing it , doth not intend it should pass on that account , the whole gift becomes null in Law. I pray tell me now , What other assurance you can have of your title to this estate , then you have of the Lord Chancellours intention in passing the Seal ? and what Infallible certainty you can have of such intention of his ? Just such , is your case , you tell us , The only ground of Infallible certainty in Faith is the Churches Infallibility , this Infallibility comes by a free promise of Christ , this promise must suppose a Church in being ; that there is a Church , we can have no more assurance then that there are Baptized-persons , but the validity of their Baptism requires the Priests intention in administring it ; and therefore we can have no more assurance of the Churches Infallibility , then we have of the Priests intention . And , Is this it at last , which your loud clamours of Infallibility come to ? Is this the effect of all your exclamations against Protestants , for making Faith uncertain by taking away the Churches Infallibility ? Must our Faith at last be resolved into that , which it is impossible we should have any undoubted assurance at all of ? And will not the highest reason , the clearest evidence , the most pregnant demonstrations which things are capable of , be accounted with you sufficient ground to build our Faith of the Scriptures upon ? and yet , must a thing so impossible to be certainly known , so generally uncertain and conjectural , be accounted by you sufficient ground to believe your Churches Infallibility ? Are not the miracles wrought by Christ and his Apostles , joyned with the Vniversal Tradition of the Christian Church , a ground firm enough , for us to believe the Doctrine of Christ divine ? and yet must the intention of the Priest with you be a much surer ground then these are ? By all which it appears , that if I had not already largely discovered your grand Imposture in your pretence to Infallibility , this very Doctrine would invincibly prove it ; since , notwithstanding that pretence , you must resolve all into something which falls short of those grounds of certainty which we have to build our Faith upon . But we must now consider , how you offer to retort this upon his Lordship ; for you say , The same Argument will hold against the Infallibility of the whole Church in Fundamentals ; since men cannot be Infallibly sure , there is such a company of men who are truly Baptized . But how manifestly ridiculous this is , will appear , 1. That it will hold indeed against all such who assert this Doctrine of the necessity of the Priests intention , but not others . Therefore if his Lordship had said , This Doctrine had been true , the retortion had been good ; but you saw well enough he disproves it as an errour , and urges this as an absurdity consequent upon it . Your Argument then as it is , runs in this form : If they who hold the Priests intention necessary cannot be sure who are Baptized , then they who do not hold it necessary , cannot . Where is your consequence ? for he was shewing , the uncertainty of it depended upon that principle , and therefore I suppose the denying of the principle doth not stand guilty of the same absurdity , which the holding it doth . But it may be , the force lyes in being Infallibly sure , and so that none can know the Infallibility of the Church in Fundamentals , but such as are Infallibly sure that men are Baptised . I Answer therefore , 2. That there is no such necessity of being Infallibly sure , upon our principles as there is upon yours . For you build your Faith upon the Churches Infallibility in Pope and Councils , but we do not pretend to build our Faith upon the Churches Infallibility in Fundamentals . All that we assert , is , that the Church is Infallible in Fundamentals , but we do not say , the ground of our Faith is , because she is so , for that were to make the Church the formal object of our Faith : since therefore we do not rely on the Church as our Infallible Guide in Fundamentals , there is no such necessity of that Infallible certainty as to this principle as there is with you , who must wholly establish your Faith upon the Churches Infallibility , The most then that we assert , is , that there is and shall alwayes be a Church , for that ( as I have told you ) is all that is meant by a Church being Infallible in Fundamentals ; now for this we have the greatest assurance possible , that there shall be from the promises of Christ , and that there is , from the certainty we have of the Faith and Baptism of Christians , since no more is required by us to assure men of it , then all men in the world are competent Judges of ; which surely they cannot be of the Priests intention . So much for your weak attempt of retorting this Argument upon his Lordship . But the main thing to be considered , is , your solid Answer you give to it ; which indeed is of that weight , that it must not be slightly passed over . You Answer therefore , That both a General Council and the Pope , when they define any matters of Faith , do also implicitely define that themselves are Infallible ; and by consequence that both the Pope in such case , and also the Bishops that sit in Council are persons Baptised , in holy Orders , and have all things essentially necessary for that Function , which they then execute . Neither is there any more difficulty in the case of the Pope now , then there was in the time of the Prophets and Apostles of old ; whom all must grant that with the same breath they defin'd , or Infallibly declared the several Articles and points of Doctrine proposed by them to the Faithful , and their own Infallibility in proposing them . So indeed Vega answered in the case of General Councils ; for when it was demanded , How it should be known that the Council was a lawful Council , he sayes , Because the Council defined it self to be so ; but for this he is sufficiently chastised by Bellarmin , who gives this unanswerable Argument against it . Either it doth appear from some other Argument , that while the Council defines it self to be a lawful Council , it was a lawful Council ; or it doth not : if it doth , To what purpose doth it define it self to be a lawful Council ? if it doth not , then we shall doubt of that Decree whereby it defines it self to be so : for if I doubt , whether the Council were lawful before that Decree ; I doubt likewise , whether it might not err in passing that Decree . And therefore he grants , that no more than moral certainty or historical Faith is requisite in order to it . Now this Argument of Bellarmins holds with equal strength ( if not more ) against you ; for you derive the lawfulness of the Council from its Infallibility , and that Infallibility from the Councils definition . Thus therefore I argue : Either it doth appear , that the Council was Infallible before that definition , or it doth not . If it appears to be Infallible before , then its Infallibility is not known by that definition : If it doth not , How can I know it to be Infallible by it ? For as I doubt , whether it was Infallible before it , so I must doubt , whether it was Infallible in it : and consequently it is impossible I should believe it Infallible because it defines it self to be so . Neither do you at all salve this , by calling it only an implicite definition , for whether it be implicite or explicite , it is all one , since that definition is made the ground , why we must believe the Council to be Infallible . And of all men in the world you seem the strangest in this , that you declaim with so much vehemency against those who believe the Scriptures to be Infallible for themselves ; and yet assert that Pope and General Councils are to be believed Infallible , because they define themselves to be so . Than which no greater absurdity can be well imagin'd . For they who assert that the Scriptures are to be believed for themselves , do not thereby mean that they are to be believed Infallible meerly because they say they are Infallible , but that out of the Scriptures such Arguments may be brought , as may sufficiently prove that they come from God. But when you say , that Pope and General Councils are to be believed Infallible , because of their implicite definition that they are so , you can mean nothing else , but that they are Infallible , because they take upon them to be Infallible , for that is all I can understand by your implicite definition ; for if they should decree they were Infallible , that were an explicite definition . But yet how should this implicite definition be known ? for it must be some way certainly known , or else we can never believe that they are Infallible upon that account . Which way then must we understand that they implicitely define it ? Is it by their meeting , debating , decreeing matters of Faith ? that cannot be , for Councils have done all these which are acknowledged to have erred . Is it by Pope and Council joyning together ? but how can that be , unless I know before , that , when Pope and Council joyn , they are Infallible ? If this then be all the way to prove that Pope and Council are true Bishops because Infallible , and they are Infallible because they define themselves to be so ; I see , there is an absolute necessity of a mans putting out the eye of his reason , if ever he hopes to see Pope and Councils Infallible . But further yet , there is more absurdity still ( if more can be imagin'd ) in this excellent Answer ; for here is a new Labyrinth for our Authour to sport himself in . For , we are to believe a Council to consist of lawful Bishops because they are Infallible , and yet his only way to prove them Infallible , is by supposing that they consist of lawful Bishops . For I ask , Whether all persons meeting together in Council are Infallible ? No. Are all Bishops of Protestant , and the Greek , and other Churches besides the Roman , assembled in Council Infallible ? No. Must it not then be supposed , that the Bishops are lawful Bishops , before they can implicitely define themselves Infallible ? And if their lawfulness must be supposed before their Infallibility , they cannot first be proved to be Infallible , before we can know , Whether they were lawful Bishops or no. And we cannot know them to be lawful Bishops , unless we knew the intention of the Priest ; and therefore it remains proved with evidence equal to a demonstration , that your certainty of your Churches Infallibility , can be no greater than that you have of the Priests intention in the administration of Sacraments . And by this it appears , how absurdly you go about to compare the case of Pope and Council , with that of the Prophets and Apostles of old . For you challenge not an Infallibility by immediate inspiration , but such as is constantly resident in the Church by vertue of some particular promises , which must suppose the persons in whom it lodges to be actually members of the Church . And therefore all the proof of their Infallibility depends upon the certainty of that , which you can never satisfie any rational men in ; but , I hope , you will not say , it was so in the Prophets and Apostles . Besides , God never sent any persons with a message from himself to the world , but he gave the world sufficient evidence in point of reason that He sent them ; either by Miracles , the Testimony of other Prophets who wrought them , or some other satisfactory way to humane reason , as I have elsewhere proved at large . But there is no such thing in your case , no rational evidence at all is offered , but we must believe the Council lawful because Infallible , and we must believe it Infallible because it defines itself to be so . Neither is it possible to conceive that any man should believe whatever the Prophet or Apostle said , to be Infallibly true ; unless he were before convinced , that they were Infallible who spake it . But for this you have a further Answer , That it is not necessary to believe the Infallibility of the proposer , viz. prioritate temporis , in respect of time , and afterwards the Infallibility of the Doctrine he proposeth : but it sufficeth to believe it first prioritate naturae , so as the Infallibility of the teacher be presupposed to the Infallibility of his Doctrine . But what this makes to your purpose , I understand not . For it is not the time , but the evidence we enquire for , or the ground on which we are to believe the proposer Infallible . Whether it must not be something else besides the implicite defining himself to be Infallible ? You assert that to be a sufficient ground in the case of Pope and Councils ? and I pray , Will it not be as sufficient in the case of a Quaker , or Enthusiast ? May not they as well pretend this , that they are Infallible ? and if you ask them what evidence they have for it , they may tell you , just the same that Pope and Council have to be so : for , as they implicitely define themselves to be Infallible , so do they . So that , talk what you will of private Spirits and Enthusiasms , I know none lay so great a foundation for them as you do upon this pretence ; That we are to believe the Pope and Council Infallible , because implicitly they define themselves to be so . Than which , one could hardly meet with a more absurd Answer from the highest Enthusiast : for , he can tell you as boldly , that he hath the Spirit of God , because he hath it ; and just so much you say , and no more , Pope and Council are Infallible , because they are Infallible . But I must pity you : I know you would not willingly have run into these absurdities , but it was your hard fortune to maintain a bad cause , and you could not possibly help it ; for the straights you were in , were so great , that you must venture thorow some great absurdity to get out of them . But all the pity I have for you is gone , when I read your next words . Thus we conceive the Relator's Achilles is fallen . How fallen ? If he be , it is only with Antaeus , to rise the stronger . But I assure you , so far was he from falling by any force of your Answer , that he stands more impregnably than ever , having not so much as a heel left , that you can wound him in . And if you have nothing more to say , than what you here give us in answer to this argument , which you tell us , is the common Answer of Divines ; I am so far from wondring that his Lordship took no notice of it , that I shall only wonder at the weakness of your judgement , or largeness of your Faith , that can so contentedly swallow such grand absurdities . If this be but , as you say , the Prologue to the Play , I doubt you will find but a sad Catastrophe in it : The main business , you tell us , is about the Priests intention , concerning which he positively layes down , that it is not of absolute necessity to the essence of a Sacrament , so as to make it void , though the Priests thoughts should wander from his work , at the instant of using the essentials of a Sacrament ; yea , or have in him an actual intention to scorn the Church . What now have you to shew to the contrary ? If the Priests intention be not absolutely necessary to the essence or validity of a Sacrament , you desire a reason of your adversaries , Why we should not think a Priest consecrates the body of Christ , as much at a Table where there is Wheaten Bread before him , and that eieither by way of disputation , or reading the 26. Chapter of St. Matthew , he pronounces the words , Hoc est corpus meum , as he doth at the Altar ; since here is the true form , Hoc est corpus meum , the true matter Wheaten Bread , and he that pronounces the form , is a true Priest , and yet in all mens judgement here 's no true Sacrament made . Something else therefore is requisite to the essence of a Sacrament , and , What can that possibly be , if it be not the intention which the Church requires ? Since your request is reasonable , I shall endeavour your satisfaction , and the rather because it tends to the full clearing the business in hand . To your Enquiry then , I answer , That the Institution of Christ requiring such a solemnity for the administration of it , and such a disposition in the Church for the receiving it , and the performance of such acts , in order to the administration , by the dispenser of it ; these do sufficiently distinguish the Lords Supper from all other actions , what matter , form , or person soever be there . Were not in the Apostles times the assembling of the people together for this end , and the solemn performance of the acts of administration , sufficient to discriminate the Lords Supper , from reading the 26. of Matthew , by an Apostle at the Table , when there was Bread and Wine upon it ? And I must confess , I cannot but wonder that you should be so much to seek , as not to know the one from the other , unless you knew the Priests intention ? But I consider , your Question was not made for Apostolical times , but for private Masses , wherein the Priest may mumble over the words of Consecration to himself , and none else be the wiser or better for what he saith , or doth . Here it was indeed very requisite you should make the Priests intention necessary to discriminate this action , from that you mentioned ; but , where-ever the Lords Supper is duly administred according to the Primitive Institution , the solemnity of the action and circumstances do so far individuate it , as sufficiently to difference it from any other formalities whatsoever . And so it is in conferring Orders ; Is there not enough , do you think , in the solemnity of the action , with the preceding circumstances , and the Bishops laying on of his hands , with the using the words proper to that occasion , to difference it from the Bishops casual laying his hands on the head of a man , and in the mean time reading perchance the words of ordination ? We assert then , that no further intention is at all necessary to the essence of a Sacrament , but what is discoverable by the outward action . Which being of that nature , which may difference it self by reason of peculiar circumstances from others , there is no imaginable necessity to have recourse to the private intention of the Priest for satisfaction . But see how unreasonable you are herein ; for you would make that to be necessary to distinguish a Sacramental action from any other , which it is impossible any man should be acquainted with . For , if I had no other way to distinguish in the case you mention , but the Priests intention , I must be as much to seek as ever , unless I cerrainly knew what the Priests intention was ; which if you have an art of being acquainted with , I pretend not to it . Is it then necessary to distinguish the one from the other , or not ? If not , To what end is your Question ? If it be , To what purpose is the Priests intention , when I cannot know it ? But you would seem to object against the circumstances discriminating a Sacramental action . 1. If the circumstances do shew to the standers by , that the Priest really intends to make a Sacrament , and this signification be necessary ; then the Priests intention is necessary , or else , Why is it necessary it should be signified ? I answer , The circumstances are not intended to signifie the Priests intention any further , than that intention is discoverable by the actions themselves , so that it is not any inward intention which is thereby signified , but only such an intention as the outward action imports , which is the celebration of the blessed Sacrament . So it is not the Priests intending to make a Sacrament , as you phrasify it , but his intending to celebrate it , i. e. not such an intention as is unitive of matter and form , as your Schools speak in this case , but such as relates to the external action . But against this you urge , 2. That such external signification is not at all necessary ; for , say you , Might not a Catholick Priest , to save the soul of some dying Infant , baptize it , if he could , without any such signification by circumstances ? Yes , and a very charitable man he would be in it too , if without any signification by circumstances , he could save the soul of a dying Infant . But I should think his meer intention were sufficient and well , as the chief Priest would supply the rest , as the Schools determine in a like case . For they put a very hard Question to themselves , If the intention of a Priest be necessary to the validity of a Sacrament , then , What becomes of the soul of an Infant , which dyes , being baptized without the Priest's intention ? To which they answer , It may very piously be believed , that in that case , summus Sacerdos supplebit , the High Priest will supply that defect ; and what they say of intention , is much more true of Baptism it self ; for in case it be not done out of contempt , I say that summus Sacerdos supplebit : it is not the meer want of Baptism will damn the soul of the Infant , ( as you suppose ) when you make it so necessary , to use such shifts as you speak of , to save the soul of a dying Infant . But , Do you think seriously , that is the way to do it ; for a Priest , under a Physical pretence to sprinkle water on the Childs face often , and once among the rest , to say softly , or by way of discourse , Ego te baptizo , &c. with intention to conferr the Sacrament ? But you ask however , Whether the Child be not really baptized by this , although none took notice of what the Priest did ? I answer , though we should grant it , yet it proves not that the Priests inward intention was it which made it a Sacrament ; but the observation of the institution of Christ in the external actions ; and so far , as that is observed in this odd kind of baptizing , so far it is Baptism , and no more . There are two things therefore to be observed in Sacramental actions . 1. The differencing of them from other common or ordinary actions , and this we say is done by the circumstances attending them . 2. The validity of them as Sacraments , and this depends wholly and only on the observation of Christs Institution . For , as it is Institution which makes a Sacrament , so it is the observation of it , which makes this a Sacramental action , and not another . But in neither case is the Priests intention necessary to the essence of a Sacrament ; for it may have its full force in all respects it was appointed for , whatever the Priests inward intention be . So that neither of your Instances , as to the Sacraments of Baptism , or the Eucharist , do at all imply the necessity of the Priests intention , in order to the essence of a Sacrament , in either of them . As for the inconvenience which , you say , the Bishop pretends would follow out of this Doctrine , viz. that no man can rest secure that he hath been really made partaker of any Sacrament , no not of Baptism it self . You answer , 1. That as to the far greater part of Christians , the inconvenience follows as much out of the Bishops principles as yours , that they cannot be absolutely certain that they are baptized ; because the Priest may vitiate something pertaining to the essentials of Baptism . 2. You answer , That moral Assurance is sufficient in such cases , i. e. such as is liable to no just cause of doubting and suspecting the contrary . We accept of this latter Answer in reference to your retortion of the inconvenience upon us , as to which we say , That where is no sufficient cause of doubting , a man ought to rest satisfied . But I shall now shew you , that this moral Assurance cannot be sufficient in your case , and that for these Reasons , 1. Because you build a main principle of Faith upon it , and you say , That moral Assurance cannot be a sufficient foundation for Faith ; for then all your discourse of the resolution of Faith , comes to nothing , which runs upon this principle , That nothing short of Infallibility can be a sufficient foundation for Faith. Now that you build a principle of Faith upon it , is evident , as I have proved already , even all that Infallibility , you pretend to in Church , Pope , and Council ; for all depends upon this , that you certainly know , that such persons in your Church have had the Sacrament of Baptism truly administred , which cannot be without knowing the Priests intention . 2. Because you acknowledged before , that there must be such a certainty as is sufficient to ground an Infallible belief ; for this you placed in his Lordships Objection , and this you pretended to satisfie , by saying , That the Pope and Council implicitly define themselves to be Infallible ; and therefore you fall much beneath your self now , when you say , Moral Assurance is sufficient . 3. Because we have far greater ground for moral Assurance than you : for we make no more requisite to the essence of a Sacrament , than what all men are competent judges of ; and our Church allows no such Baptisms , wherein none but the Priest is present ; therefore if he vitiates any thing essential to Baptism , it may easily be discovered ; but in your case you have no positive Assurance at all of the Priests intention , the utmost you can pretend to , is , your having no ground to suspect it , which in many cases there may be . So that you cannot have properly a moral Certainty , which hath some evidence to build it self upon ; but in your case there can be no evidence at all of the Priests intention , and therefore the knowledge of it is uncertain and conjectural . So that there is a vast difference between that moral Assurance , which we may have from the external action , and that which you can possibly have from the Priests intention . 4. The danger is far greater , in not having this Assurance upon your principles , than upon ours , and yet we have far greater Assurance than you can possibly pretend to . Your danger is manifestly greater , as appears by this evident demonstration of it , viz. that in case the Priests intention be wanting , you must , by your own confession , be guilty of gross Idolatry ; and yet you cannot certainly know , what the Priests intention was . This is plain in the case of the Eucharist , whose adoration you profess to be lawful , because you suppose Christ to be present there . Now this depends upon a thing impossible for you certainly to know , and that is the Priests intention in the Consecration . For if the Priest wanted that inward intention which you make necessary to the essence of a Sacrament , then , for all his pronouncing the words of Consecration , Hoc est corpus meum , Christs body may not be there ; and in case it be not there , you are by your own confession guilty of Idolatry , for you do not then worship Christ , but meerly the Bread. Therefore , supposing adoration of the Eucharist upon your principle of Transubstantiation were not Idolatry , yet since that depends upon a thing impossible to be known , Who can with a good conscience do that , which he cannot be certain , but in the doing it , he may commit the greatest Idolatry ? Wherefore , all the ill consequences of this Doctrine of the intention of the Priest considered , besides the palpable errours of it , never was any Doctrine more imprudently contrived , or more weakly managed , than when this was decreed at the Councils of Florence and Trent . You spend many words to explain that virtual intention which the Schools have taken up from Scotus upon this subject ; but , all that you say , adds nothing of satisfaction : upon these grounds , 1. Because this virtual intention must suppose some actual intention , so it is in all those cases you mention of a servant on his journey , a labourer at his work ; though these may not have alwaies an express intention of the design of their journey or labour , yet there is sufficient evidence from both of them , to know they had an actual intention , and there is no necessity of knowing any more of it , than what their actions discover : but in your case it is necessary to know that there was once an actual intention , because upon that depends the essence of the Sacrament : and that is it which we object against you , that you cannot have any assurance that the Priest ever had an express intention . We do not therefore say , that any wandring thoughts after , do destroy the essence of a Sacrament ; but the want of an actual intention at all upon your principles doth it , and this you cannot be certain of upon your grounds . And therefore your virtual intention doth you no service at all ; for you say , This virtual intention is , when the Priest doth really operate , or celebrate the Sacrament in virtue of an express intention which he had to do it ; therefore it necessarily follows , that the essence and validity of the Sacrament must depend upon the first express intention , and not the after virtual one . So that if you cannot be certain of the first actual intention , the Sacrament may want its essence , for all that you know . 2. Though a virtual intention may be consistent with some wandring thoughts from the first intention , yet not with an express intention to the contrary . As in your own instance , A servant sent upon business , hath at first an express intention , to do what his Master commands him ; after , falling into company upon his way , he loseth for the time his actual intention ; but , as long as he goes on upon his first business , he retains , I grant , a virtual intention of it : but , supposing that company disswade him from it , or his own mind turn , so that he hath an actual intention to the contrary , Will you say , this man retains his virtual intention still ? Now our argument doth not lye meerly in this , that the Priest , at the instant of Consecration , may have his mind distracted from the matter , in which case you say , The virtual intention remains still , and is sufficient ; but , that you cannot have any certainty , but he may have an actual and express intention to the contrary , at the instant of Consecration , and this destroyes his virtual intention , and consequently the essence of the Sacrament . For , as long as you require an inward intention , besides the external action , you must be assured , that he had no actual contrary intention at that time , or else your virtual intention signifies nothing to your purpose or satisfaction . That which remains , is concerning Catharinus , of whom his Lordship sayes , That being present at Trent , he disputed this case very learnedly , and made it most evident , that this Opinion cannot be defended , but that it must open a way for any unworthy Priest , to make infinite nullities in the administration of Sacraments ; and that his arguments were of such strength , as amazed the other Divines which were present . And concluded , that no internal intention was required in the Minister of a Sacrament , but that intention which did appear , opere externo , in the work it self performed by him ; and that if he had unworthily any wandring thoughts ; nay more , any contrary intention within him , yet it neither did , nor could hinder the blessed effect of any Sacrament . To this you answer , That the Cardinal Palavicino is clear of opinion , that the Council decreed nothing against him ; because he denied not an intention to be necessary in the Sacrament , but only explicated the thing differently from the common way of the Schoolmen . But whosoever will read the arguments which Catharinus used in the Council of Trent against the Priests intention , will easily find that he disputes against all manner of inward intention , but such as may be discovered by the external action . But we must consider that Palavicino had a particular kindness for Catharinus , as being of Siena ( the present Popes Country ) insomuch that Caesar Aquilinius saith , If Luther had been of Siena , the Cardinal Palavicino would have defended him : and thence he endeavours to vindicate him in the point of certitude of Grace , as well as in this of the Priests intention , though in both , he goes contrary to the general sense of your Divines , both then at Trent , and ever since ; who looked on both Opinions of Catharinus , as condemned there , as is manifest by Bellarmin , Suares , Vasquez , Valentia , and others . But however , we may observe this from hence , What an excellent Rule of Faith , and Judge of Controversies the Decrees of your Council of Trent are , when there have been , and are still , such different Opinions , and eager contests about the sense of them ; that in one point Dominicus à Soto saith , the Council decreed of his side , Catharinus saith just the contrary , and yet both great Divines and present in the Council . And in this Doctrine of the intention of the Priest , the general apprehension then was , and hath been since , that Catharinus his Opinion was condemned there , but Cardinal Palavicino undertakes to prove the contrary . So that in the mean time here is like to be a fair end of Controversies , by your pretended Infallible Decrees of Councils , when you are so far from being agreed , what the sense of them is : and yet You , You are the men who say , Controversies cannot be ended by the Scripture , because there are such differences in the sense and interpretation of it . Thus ( we hope ) we have sufficiently vindicated his Lordships first charge of errour against your pretended General Councils confirmed by the Pope . Before we come to the second , you say , His Lordship presents such a quaint subtilty against the Popes right to confirm them , and the necessity of his Confirmation , that you cannot well avoid the taking notice of it . Thus then , you say , he argues , No Council is confirmed till it be finished : and when it is finished , even before the Popes Confirmation be put to it , either it hath erred , or it hath not erred : If it hath erred , the Pope ought not to confirm it ; and if he do , it is a void act : for no power can make falshood truth : If it hath not erred , then it was true before the Pope confirmed it ; so his Confirmation adds nothing but his own assent . As quaint a subtilty as you call this , I am sure you are hard put to it , to return any satisfactory Answer to it . For you distinguish of the Popes joynt-consent , and of his actual Confirmation ; in case , say you , the Pope either in person , or by his Legats concurr with the Council , then the definition is unquestionably Infallible ; but in case he doth not , then the actual Confirmation is necessary ; but in case the Council erre , the Pope ought not , and it is impossible he should confirm it ; but if he doth not erre , you grant it is true , before the Pope confirms it , but his Confirmation makes us infallibly certain that it is true . This is the full force of your Answer , which by no means takes off the difficulty , as will appear , 1. That by reason of the Pope's rare appearance in General Councils ( never in any that are unquestioned by the Greek and Latin Churches ) that of his joynt-consent cannot serve you : neither doth the presence of his Legats suffice ; for it is determined by Bellarmin , and proved by many reasons , that though the Pope's Legats consent , yet if they have not the express sentence of the Pope , the Council may erre notwithstanding . So that still the Popes actual Confirmation is supposed necessary , and that after the definitions of the Council are passed . And this is the case which his Lordship speaks to : and for your answer to that , I say , 2. That in plain terms you assert the Popes personal Infallibility , which you disowned the defence of before : for you say , In case the Council erre , not only the Pope ought not to confirm it , but that it is impossible he should . Which , What is it other than to assert , that the Pope shall never erre , though the Council may ? Neither is it sufficient to say , That he shall never erre in confirming the Decrees of a Council : for in this case the Council is supposed actually to erre already , so that nothing of Infallibility can be at all supposed in the Council ; and if the Pope be not considered in his personal capacity , he might erre as well as the Council . From whence it follows , since you suppose that a Council may erre , but not the Pope , that you really judge the Council not to be Infallible , but the Pope only . 3. When you say , That if the Council erred not , the Popes Confirmation doth not make the definition true , but makes us infallibly certain that it is true . I enquire further , Whereon this Infallible Certainty depends ? on a promise made to the Council , or to the Pope ? not to the Council , for that you grant may erre ; but it is impossible the Pope should confirm it , therefore still it is some promise of the Popes Infallibility which makes men Infallibly certain of the truth of what the Council decrees . 4. To what purpose then are all those promises and proofs of Scripture which you produced concerning the Councils Infallibility , if , notwithstanding them , a General Council may err ? Only the Pope shall never confirm it , and although it do not err , yet we cannot be Infallibly certain of it , but by the Popes confirmation . And let any reasonable man judge , whether a promise of the Popes Infallibility , though there be none at all concerning Councils , be not sufficient for all this ? So that upon these principles you take away the least degree of necessity of any Infallibility in Councils , and resolve all into the Popes Infallibility . For to what purpose are they Infallible , if we cannot be certain that any thing which they decree is true , but by the Popes confirmation ? But that the Popes confirmation cannot make the Decrees of those you account General Councils Infallible , nor us Infallibly Certain of the truth of them , his Lordship proves by another evidence in matter of fact , viz. That the Pope hath erred by teaching in and by the Council of Lateran ( confirmed by Innocent 3. ) that Christ is present in the Sacrament by way of Transubstantiation . Which ( his Lordship saith ) was never heard of in the Primitive Church , nor till the Council of Lateran ; nor can it be proved out of Scripture ; and taken properly cannot stand with the grounds of Christian Religion . This you call a strange kind of proceeding to assert a point of so great importance , without solving or so much as taking notice of the pregnant proofs your Authours bring both out of Scripture and Fathers to the contrary of what he mainly affirms . How pregnant those proofs are , we must examine afterwards ; but his Lordship might justly leave it to those who assert so strange a Doctrine to produce their evidence for it . Especially , since it is confessed by so many among your selves , That it could not be sufficiently proved , either from Scripture or Fathers to bind men to the belief of it , till the Church had defined it in the Council of Lateran : Since , the more moderate and learned men among your selves ( Bishop Tonstall for one ) have looked on that definition as a rash and inconsiderate action . Since , the English Jesuits confessed , that the Fathers did not meddle with the Doctrine of Transubstantiation . Since , Suarez confesseth that the names used by the Fathers , are more accommodated to an accidental change . Since , Father Barns acknowledgeth that Transubstantiation is not the Faith of the Church , and that Scripture and Fathers may be sufficiently expounded of a Supernatural presence of the body of Christ without any change in the substance of the Elements . For which he produces a large Catalogue of Fathers and others . Since therefore we have such confessions of your own side , What need his Lordship ( in a Controversie so throughly sifted as this hath been ) bring all the Testimonies of both sides which had been so often and so punctually examin'd by others . At least ( you say ) he should have cleared how Transubstantiation may be taken improperly , whereas of all the words which the Church useth , there is none methinks less apt to a Metaphorical and figurative sense , then this of Transubstantiation . By which I see you are a man who would really seem to believe Transubstantiation , and are afraid of nothing , but that it should not be impossible enough for you to believe it . For his Lordship was only afraid , that though the word it self were gross enough , yet some of the more refined and subtle wits might transubstantiate the word it self and leave only the accidents of it behind , by taking it in a spiritual sense ; as Bellarmin confesses those words of St. Bernard , In Sacramento exhiberi nobis veram carnis substantiam sed spiritualitèr non carnalitèr , have a true sense ; but adds , that the word spiritualitèr must not be too often used ; and the Council of Trent would seem to provide an evasion by Sacramentaliter : and his Lordship not well knowing what they would have by such expressions , therefore he saith , properly taken it cannot stand with the grounds of Christian Religion . And for all those expressions , Bellarmin as well as the Council take it in as gross a manner as you can desire ; and I think the Physitian who wanted impossibilities enough to exercise his Faith , needed nothing else to try it , but your Doctrine of Transubstantiation . But you say , The term indeed was first authorised by the Council of Lateran , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by that of Nice ; but for the thing it self signified by this term , which is a real conversion of the substance of bread into the body of Christ and of wine into his blood , 't is clear enough , that it was ever held for a Divine truth . If you prove but that , I will never quarrel with you about the term , call it Transubstantiation or what you will ; but we do not think it so clear , as not to want proofs stronger for the belief of it , then all the repugnancies of sense and reason are against it . For it is a vain thing for you to attempt to prove so unreasonable a Doctrine as this is , by some few lame citations of Fathers , unless you can first prove that the Authority of them is so great , as to make me believe any thing they say , though never so contrary to sense and reason . If you could bring some places of the Fathers to prove that we must renounce absolutely the judgement of sense , believe things most contradictions to reason , yet you must first shew that the evidence they bring is greater then that of sense or reason . Or that I am more bound to believe them , then I am to believe the greatest evidence of sense or reason . When you say , In these cases we must submit reason to Faith ; we acknowledge it , when it is no manifest contradiction , in things so obvious to sense or reason , that the asserting it , will destroy the use of our faculties and make us turn absolute Scepticks ; for then Faith , must be destroyed too . For may not a man question , as well , whether his hearing may not deceive him as his sight , and by that means he may question all the Tradition of the Church , and what becometh of his Faith then ? and if his sight might deceive him in a proper object of it , Why might not the Apostles sight deceive them in the body of Christ being risen from the grave ? And if a man may be bound to believe that to be false which his sense judges to be true , what assurance can be had of any miracles which were wrought to confirm the Christian Doctrine ? and therefore his Lordship might well say , That Transubstantiation is not consistent with the grounds of Christian Religion . But of this I have spoken already . That which I am now upon , is not how far reason is to be submitted to Divine Authority , in case of certainty that there is a Divine Revelation for what I am to believe ; but how far it is to be renounced , when all the evidence which is brought is from the Authority of the Fathers ? So that the Question in short is , Whether there be greater evidence that I am bound to believe the Fathers in a matter contrary to sense and reason , or else to adhere to the judgement of them though in opposition to the Fathers Authority ? And since , you do not grant their Authority immediately Divine ; since you pretend not to places as clear out of them as the judgement of sense and reason is in this case ; since you dare not say , that all the Fathers are as much agreed about it , as the senses of all mankind are about the matter in dispute ; I think with men who have not already renounced all that looks like reason , this will be no matter of Controversie at all . From whence it follows , that supposing the Fathers were as clear for you ( as they are against you ) in this subject , yet that would not be enough to perswade us to believe so many contradictions as Transubstantiation involves in it meerly because the Fathers delivered it to us . I speak not this , as though I did at all fear the clearness of any Testimony you can produce out of them , but to shew you that you take not a competent way to prove such a Doctrine as Transubstantiation is . For nothing but a stronger evidence than that of sense and reason , can be judged sufficient to oversway the clear dictates of both . This being premised , I come to consider the clear evidence you produce out of Antiquity for this Doctrine , and since you pretend to so much choice in referring us to Bellarmin and Gualtierus for more , I must either much distrust your judgement , or suppose these the clearest to be had in them , and therefore the examination of these will save the labour of searching for the rest . And yet it is the great unhappiness of your cause , that there is scarce one of all the Testimonies you make use of , but either its Authority is slighted by some of your own writers , or sufficient reasons given against it by many of ours . Your first is of St. Cyprian ( or at least an Authour of those first ages of the Church ) who speaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist , saith . This common bread chang'd into flesh and blood giveth life . And again , The bread which our Lord gave to his Disciples being chang'd not in its outward form or semblance , but in its inward nature or substance , by the omnipotency of the word is made flesh . As to this Testimony there are two things to be considered , the authority , and the meaning of it . For its Authority , you seem doubtful your self , whether S. Cyprian's or no ( since Bellarmin and others of your own deny it ) but at least you say , an Authour of those first ages of the Church , but you bring no evidence at all for it . Bellarmin grants that he is younger then St. Augustine ; and others say that none mention him for 800 years after St. Cyprians time . And the abundance of barbarisms which that book is so full fraught with , manifest , that it is of a much later extraction then the time it pretends to . But the matter seems to be now out of question ; since the Book is extant in the King of France's Library with an Inscription to Pope Adrian , and a MSS. of it is in the Library of All-Souls in Oxford with the same Inscription and the name of Arnaldus Bonavillacensis ; who was St. Bernards co-temporary , and lived in the twelfth Century . And those who have taken the pains to compare this Book with what is extant of the same Authour in the Bibliotheca Patrum , not only observe the very same barbarisms , but the same conceptions and expressions about the Sacrament which the other hath . Although therefore I might justly reject this testimony as in all respects incompetent , yet I shall not take that advantage of you ; but , supposing him an Authour as ancient as you would have him , I say he proves not the thing you bring him for . For which , two things must be enquired into . 1. What kind of presence of Christ he asserts in the Sacrament . 2. What change he supposes to be made in the Elements . For your Doctrine asserts , That there is a conversion of the whole substance of bread and wine into the substance of the natural body and blood of Christ , and that this conveniently , properly , and most aptly is call'd Transubstantiation . Now if this Authour speaks wholly of a real but spiritual presence of Christ , and if he asserts that the substance of bread and wine do remain still , you can have no pretence at all left , that this Authour asserts your Doctrine of Transubstantiation . For the first , he expresly saith , That these things must not be understood after a carnal sense : viz. unless ye eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of man , ye shall have no life in you ; for Christ himself hath said , His words are spirit and life . And nothing can be more evident , then that this Authour speaks not of any corporeal , but spiritual presence of Christ , by the effects which he attributes to it , calling it inconsumptibilem cibum , that food which cannot be consumed : and the reason he gives of it , is , because it feeds to eternal life , and therefore he saith it is immortalitatis alimonia , that which nourisheth to immortality ; which cannot possibly be conceived of the corporal presence of Christ , since you confess the body of Christ remains no longer in the body then the accidents of the bread and wine do . And after he tells us , What the feeding upon the flesh of Christ is , viz. our hunger and desire of remaining in Christ , by which the sweetness of his Love , is so imprinted and melted as it were within us , that the savour of it may remain in our palat and bowels , penetrating and diffusing it self through all the recesses of soul and body . And so just before he saith , Christ did , Spiritualinos instruere documento , instruct us by a spiritual lesson , that we might know , that our abiding in him is our eating of him , and our drinking a kind of incorporation , by the humility of our obedience , the conjunction of our wills , the union of our affections . And in another place denyes , That there is any corporal union between Christ and us , but a spiritual ; and therefore adds afterwards , As often as we do these things , we do not sharpen our teeth to bite , but break and divide the holy bread by a sincere Faith , All which and many other places in that Authour make it plain , that he doth not speak of such a corporal presence as you imagine , but of a real but spiritual presence of Christ , whereby the souls of Believers have an intimate union and conjunction with Christ , which he calls Societatem germanissimam , in which respect they have communion with the body of Christ. But I need mention but one place more to explain his meaning , in which he fully asserts the spiritual presence of Christ , and withall that the substance of the elements doth remain . That immortal nourishment is given us , which differs from common food , that it retains the nature of a corporeal substance , but proving the presence of a Divine power , by its invisible efficiency . So that what presence of Divine power there is , is shewed in regard of the effects of it , not in regard of any substantial change of the bread into the body of Christ ; for in reference to that efficiency he calls it , immortal nourishment , and afterwards , That as common bread is the life of the body , so this supersubstantial bread is the life of the soul , and health of the mind . But I know you will quarrel with me for rendring , corporalis substantiae retinens speciem , by , retaining the nature of a corporal substance ; for you would fain have species to signifie only the accidents of a corporeal substance to remain . This being therefore the main thing in dispute , if I can evince that species signifies not the bare external accidents , but the nature of a corporeal substance , then this Authour will be so far from asserting that he will appear point-blank against your Doctrine of Transubstantiation . Now , I shall prove that species was not taken then , for the meer external shape and figure , but for the solid body it self especially of such things as were designed for nourishment . Thence in the Civil Law we read of the species annonariae , and of the species publicae , largitionales , and fiscales ; and those who had the care of corn are said to be curatores specierum ; and thence very often in the Codes of Justinian and Theodosius , there is mention of the species vini , species olei , species tritici . But lest you should think , it is only used in this sense in the Civil Law , not only Cassiodore and Vegetius use it in the same sense for the species tritici , and species annonariae ; but , that which comes home to our purpose , St. Ambrose uses it where it is impossible to be taken for the meer external accidents , but must be understood of the substance it self : speaking of Christs being desired to change the water into wine , he thus expresses it , Vt rogatus ad nuptias aquae substantiam in vini speciem commutaret , that he would change the substance of water into the species of wine ; Will you say , that Christ turned it only into the external accidents and not the nature of it ? So when St. Austin sayes , that Christ was the same food to the Jews and us , significatione nonspecie , he opposes species to a meer type , and therefore it imports the substance and reality of the thing . And so the translator of Origen opposes the regeneratio in specie to the baptismus in aenigmate , and the manna in aenigmate to the manna in specie : in both which , being opposed to the figure it denotes the reality . And one of those Authours whom you cite in the very same Book and Chapter which you cite , uses species sanguinis for the substance of blood , for he opposes it to the similitudo sanguinis ; for when the person objects , and sayes , That after the cup is consecrated speciem sanguinis non video , I do not see the nature or substance of blood ; he answers him , Sed similitudinem habet , But it hath the resemblance of it ; for as ( saith he ) there is the similitude of his death , so there is the similitude of his blood . These may be sufficient to shew that species corporalis substantiae , does not relate to the external shape and figure , but to the nature and reality of it : So that his meaning is , although it remains still the same substance of bread and wine ; yet there is such an invisible efficiency of Divine power going along with the use of it , as makes it to nourish the souls of men to eternal life . And now it will be no matter of difficulty at all to Answer the places you bring out of this Authour . The first is , This common bread chang'd into flesh and blood giveth life . But how little this place makes to your purpose is easie to discern , because we do not deny a Sacramental change of the bread into the flesh and blood of Christ , but only that substantial change which you assert , but that Authour sufficiently disproves , even in that very sentence from whence those words are cited , if you had given them us at large . For , saith he , that common bread being chang'd into flesh and blood , procures life and increase to our bodies ; and therefore from the usual effect of things , the weakness of our Faith is helped , being taught by a sensible argument , that the effect of eternal life is in the visible Sacraments , and that we are not united to Christ so much by a Corporal as Spiritual union . In which words he compares the sign and the thing signified together : that as the bread being Sacramentally changed into the flesh and blood of Christ , doth yet really give life and nourishment to our bodies , ( which certainly is far enough from that substantial change into the body of Christ , which you assert ) so by that effect of the sign it self upon our bodies , our Faith is helped the better to understand the efficacy of the thing signified upon our souls , in order to eternal life ; there being as real , though spiritual , union between Christ and Believers , as there is between the bread and our bodies . And that this is the plain and unsophisticated meaning of this Authour in these words , I dare appeal to the impartial judgement of any intelligent Reader . By which we see , Those first words of the change of the bread into the flesh and blood of Christ , must be understood of a sacramental , and not a substantial change . But your other is the great and ( as Bellarmin thinks ) unanswerable place ; which you thus render , The bread which our Lord gave to his Disciples , being changed not in its outward form and semblance , but in its inward nature and substance , by the omnipotency of the word is made flesh . As to which place , I must tell you first , that there are very shrewd suspicions of some unhandsome dealings with it ; for some great Criticks have assured us , that the place is corrupted , and that the ancient MSS. read it quite otherwise , non effigie , nec naturâ mutatus , which is so far from your purpose , that it is directly against it ; and this seems far more consonant to the following words ; For , saith he , as in the person of Christ , the humanity was seen , but the divinity lay hid ; so in the visible Sacrament , the divine essence doth infuse it self after an unexpressible manner . In which it is considerable , how he doth parallel these two together ; for as the humane nature of Christ did substantially remain , notwithstanding the presence of the divine nature , so to make good the parallel , the substance of Bread and Wine must remain too , and that because he doth not say , That the body of Christ is present , which might exclude the substance of the elements , but the divine essence , which only imports a spiritual and real presence . And when he saith , That the Bread is neither changed in its form or nature , when by the Omnipotency of God it is made flesh ( i. e. as to the real communion which believers have of the body of Christ ; which is an act of divine power as well as goodness ) he saith no more , than Theodoret , Ephraim , and Gelasius do expresly speak . For , saith Theodoret , The mystical symbols after Consecration , go not out of their own nature , but remain in their former substance , figure , and shape , and are visible and tangible as they were before : Which words , considering the occasion and importance of them , are so express , as nothing can be more . And in his former Dialogue , he gives an account , Why the external symbols are called by the names of the body and blood of Christ , not by changing their natures , but by superadding Grace to nature ; which is the same with that our Authour saith here , Though neither figure nor nature be changed , yet by Gods Omnipotency it is made flesh ; that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in Theodoret and this omnipotentia Dei , here importing the same thing . To the same purpose Ephraim the famous Patriarch of Antioch speaks in Photius . For , saith he , the body of Christ , which is received by believers doth not lose its sensible substance ; and yet is inseparable from spiritual Grace . And so Gelasius , as plainly as either of the foregoing , asserts , That the Sacraments of the body and blood of Christ , which we receive , are a divine thing , through and by which we are made partakers of the divine nature ( which answers to the Omnipotency of God , by which it is made flesh , in our Authour ) and yet it doth not cease to be the substance , or nature of Bread and Wine ( which is the same with the former clause , That the Bread is not changed in figure or nature . ) So that the ancient reading of this place is not only consonant to the other parts of his discourse , but asserts no more than is in express terms said by genuine and unquestionable Authours ; who plainly overthrew your Doctrine of Transubstantiation . For these testimonies being so express for the remaining of the substance of Bread and Wine after Consecration , are of far greater force against it , than the highest expressions concerning the change of the elements can make for it . For in these they speak their judgements , clearly and punctually against Hereticks , and speak that which is absolutely inconsistent with Transubstantiation ; but in their other they speak mystically and sacramentally ; and their most lofty expressions , must be understood by the nature and design of their discourse , which is to represent symbolical things in the most lively and affecting manner . But when our Adversaries are urged with the former testimonies , they then tell us , That substance and nature are not alwaies taken properly , but sometimes at large for the accidents or use of things : but although this can never be applied to the places of the foregoing Authours , in their disputations with the Eutychian Hereticks ; yet from thence we are furnished by themselves with a further answer to this place . So that although we admit of the present reading , non effigie , sed naturâ mutatus , yet since by their own confession nature doth not alwaies import the substance of a thing , they cannot in any justice or reason from hence inferr a substantial change . Let them then take their choice , Whether are the words of substance and nature in the Fathers alwaies to be taken properly , or no ? If they must be taken so , we have three unquestionable testimonies of ancient Fathers directly against Transubstantiation , and we only lose the testimony of an uncertain Authour , built upon an uncertain reading , and contrary to other expressions in the same book : If they be not , then from the change of nature here expressed , no such thing as a substantial change can be inferred , but only accidental , upon consecration , in regard of the sacramental use and effect of it . Which that it is nothing strange in Antiquity , might be easily proved , but that our Adversaries confession saves me the labour of it . The second Testimony , is of Gregory Nyssen , out of whose Catechetical Oration you produce these words , With good reason do we believe , that the Bread being sanctified by God's Word , is changed into the body of the Word of God : and a little after , The nature of the things we see being trans-elemented into him . I might here tell you , What Exceptions are taken against this book , as not being genuine , not only by Protestants ( as Fronto Ducaeus would have it , because of these expressions ) but by others too . But I will not insist on this , because I see no sufficient reason to question the Authority of it ; yet I know not how you can excuse it from some interpolations , since he therein mentions Severus , an heretical Acephalist , who lived not till after Gregory's time ; yet for the main of the book , I say as Casaubon doth , that it is , Opus planè eximium si paucos navos excipias , An excellent piece in the general , and becoming its Authour , some few escapes excepted . And the design of it being to shew , that Christian Religion hath nothing absurd or unreasonable in it , it would be very strange that he should assert so absurd and unreasonable a Doctrine , as Transubstantiation is . But there is nothing tending to that in the places cited , but only the use of those two words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; for the main force of all , you say , depends upon them . So that if we can give a good account of them , without any Transubstantiation , there remains no difficulty at all in these words of Gregory Nyssen . For , we deny not that there is a change in the elements after Consecration , but we say , It is a sacramental , and you , That it is a substantial change , and this you offer to prove from these two words here used in reference to the Eucharist . The argument commonly formed by your Authours from the first words , is , Whatsoever is changed , is not what it was before : which we readily grant , so far as the change is ; but still it remains to be proved , that the substance is changed in it self . But it were easie to shew , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in multitudes of places of the Fathers is used for an accidental and relative change , and Gregory Nyssen himself very frequently uses the word , where it is capable of no other sense , as when he saith , Of the shining of Moses his face , that it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a change to that which was more glorious ; and when he affirms , the souls of men by the Doctrine of Christ , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be changed into that which is more divine . And in this same Catechetical Oration he uses it several times to the same purpose , about the change which shall be in glorified bodies , and the change of mens souls by Regeneration : But I need not insist more on this , since I produced before the confession of Suarez , that such expressions are more accommodated to an accidental mutation . Neither is there any more strength in the other word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though Suarez thinks this comes nearer the matter , and you confidently say , What can here be signified by trans-elementation of the nature of the outward element , but that which the Church now stiles Transubstantiation ? I will therefore shew you , what else is signified by that word which Gregory used , which cannot be properly rendred trans-elementation ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth not come from the Noune 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but from the Verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the Greeks expound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; as you may see in Suidas , and others . So that it imports not a substantial , but an accidental change too : and in that sense Gregory Nyssen uses it to express Regeneration by , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , those who are trans-elemented by Regeneration ; Would you say , those who are transubstantiated by it ? So that ▪ neither of these Testimonies import any more than that there is a sacramental change in the elements after Consecration , by which believers are made partakers of the body and blood of Christ ; which is no more than we assert , and falls far short of your Doctrine of Transubstantiation . Your third Testimony is , of S. Cyril of Hierusalem , which you would make us believe , is so full and clear , that no Catholick could express his own , or the Churches belief of this mystery , in more full , plain , and effectual terms : Neither shall I here stand to dispute the reasons on which those Mystagogical discourses under his name are questioned , but proceed to the consideration of the Testimony it self . Which lyes in these words , He that changed water into wine by his sole will ( at Cana in Galilee ) doth he not deserve our belief , that he hath also changed wine into blood ? Wherefore let us receive with all assurance of Faith , the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Seeing under the species of bread the body is given , and under the species of wine his blood is given , &c. knowing and holding for certain , that the bread which we see , is not bread ( though it seem to the tast to be bread ) but the body of Jesus Christ ; likewise that the wine which we see ( though to the sense it seem to be wine ) is not wine for all that , but the blood of Jesus Christ. This testimony you have patched together out of several places in that Oration , very warily leaving out that , which would sufficiently clear the meaning of S. Cyril in the words you cite out of him . For it is evident , that his design is to perswade the Catechumens ( from whom the mysterious presence of Christs body in the Sacrament was wont to be concealed ) that the bread and wine were not meer common elements , but that they were designed for a greater and higher use to exhibit the body and blood of Christ to believers . And therefore he saith expresly , Do not consider them as meer bread and wine , for they are the body and blood of Christ , according to his own words . By which it is plain he speaks of the body and blood of Christ , as sacramentally , and not corporeally present ; for he doth not oppose the body and blood of Christ , to the substance of bread and wine , but to meer bread and wine , i. e. that they should not look on the bread and wine as naked signs , but as signa efficacia , and that there is a real presence of Christ in and with them to the souls of believers . And this is it which he saith , That they ought not to make a question of , since Christ said , This is my body , and this is my blood . For if he could by his will turn the water into wine , Shall we not believe him , that he can change his wine into his blood ? And after adds , That under the symbols of bread and wine , the body and blood of Christ is given , that thou mayest be a partaker both of his body and blood . You render this under the species or form of bread and wine in Cyril it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in that which is the figure or representation of the body and blood of Christ ; for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not taken in your sense for the external accidents , which you call the species , but for that which doth figure or represent ; for in his next Catechetical discourse he calls the bread and wine , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the figure of the body and blood of Christ , and this Theophylact , and those who assert Transubstantiation , deny that the bread and wine are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For , where there are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , there must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which must answer to them ; if Cyril therefore makes the bread and wine to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he must make the body and blood of Christ to be the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and consequently they cannot be the very body and blood of Christ in your sense . This 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here have the same signification , and are the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so when he saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his meaning cannot be , under the accidents of bread and wine the body and blood of Christ is present in your sense , for he speaks of such a presence as hath relation to the receiver , and not to the elements ; for he saith , Vnder the type of bread and wine , the body and blood of Christ is given to thee . For otherwise it had been far more to his purpose to have said absolutely , that under the species of bread and wine , the body and blood of Christ is substantially present ; but , when he saith , only that it is given to the receiver , it doth not belong to such a corporeal presence as you dream of , but to such a real and spiritual presence , whereby believers are make partakers of the body and blood of Christ. And therefore Cyril is in this well explained by that of Tertullian , Hoc est corpus meum , id est , figura corpus mei , This is my body , i. e. the figure of my body , which is the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and by that of S. Austin , Non dubitavit Dominus dicere , Hoc est corpus meum , cum daret signum corporis sui , Christ did not scruple to say , This is my body , when he gave the figure of his body : And elsewhere speaking of Judas his being present ad convivium in quo corporis & sanguinis sui figuram discipulis commendavit & tradidit , at that Supper in which Christ commended and delivered to his Disciples the figure of his body and blood . So that hitherto there is nothing in the testimony of Cyril , importing Transubstantiation . But it may be you think , there is more force in it , where he saith , That we must not believe our senses , that that which we see is not bread , though it seem to the tast to be so , &c. As to which I answer , That this place of Cyril must be explained by that which went before it , wherein he said , That we must not judge it to be meer bread , and meer wine . For , although sense be a sufficient judge of that which it sees and tasts , yet it cannot be a judge of that which is exhibited by that which is seen and tasted ; therefore , though to the tast , it seems to be nothing but common bread and wine , yet they ought to believe that it is the communion of the body and blood of Christ. So that this is not to be understood of the elements themselves , but of the mystical and sacramental nature of them . And , as Cardinal Perron hath observed , It is an usual thing , for the greater Emphasis sake , to deny that to be , which is meant only respectively ; or to express the affirmation and denyal of some qualities , by the affirmation or denyal of the substances themselves : as in that of Tully , Memmius semper est Memmius , for one ; that in S. Ambrose , Ego non sum ego , for the other : and in many other instances to the same purposes , in which he saith , Though the substance seem to be denied , yet only some quality is understood by it . So when Cyril here saith , That bread is not bread , &c. he means not by it any alteration of the substance of it , but that it is not that common bread which it was before , and as our sight and tast judge it still to be . And what he saith here of the bread in the Eucharist , he said the same before of the Chrism , where he compares them both together . For ( saith he ) do not think that to be meer oyntment ; for as the bread of the Eucharist after the invocation of the Holy Spirit , is no longer bread , but the body of Christ ; so this holy oyntment , is no longer meer , or common oyntment , after it is consecrated , but a gift of Christ , and the Holy Spirit ; being effectual through the presence of his divine nature . May not you then as well prove a Transubstantiation here as in the Eucharist , since he parallels these two so exactly together ? And so elsewhere he speaks concerning Baptism , That they ought not to look on it as meer water , but as spiritual grace ; so that he means not a substantial change in the Eucharist , any more than in the other , but only relative and sacramental . Neither can any thing more be inferred from your testimonies out of your last Authour S. Ambrose , there being nothing at all in the words you produce , which implies any substantial change in the elements ; for , although it be only sacramental , yet it may be truly said , It is no longer that which nature hath framed it ( viz. meer bread and wine ) but that which the benediction of consecration hath made it to be : which I grant to be the body and blood of Christ , but not in your gross and corporeal sense . So S. Chrysostome saith of Baptism , That its virtue is so great , it doth not suffer men to be men ; Will you therefore say , it transubstantiates them ? But you add further out of him , that he saith , The force of benediction is greater than that of nature , seeing by that nature it self is often changed ? And so we assert too , that the force of benediction far exceeds that of nature , which can so alter common elements , as by the use of them , to make us partakers of the body and blood of Christ. Your last words are out of the counterfeit S. Ambrose , which are only general , viz. this bread , is bread before the words of the Sacrament , but when consecration comes , of bread , it is made the flesh of Christ. This we deny not , but the dispute is about the sense in which it is made so , whether by a substantial change of the bread into the body of Christ : and that this cannot be this Authour's meaning , appears by those known words which are used by him , speaking of the efficacy of Christs power in the Sacrament , whereby he can make , ut sint quae erant & in aliud commutentur , that they might be what they were , and yet be changed into something else . And , although a great Controversie hath been raised about the reading of these words , yet this reading is not only justified by many Authours of competent Antiquity , but by two MSS. in the K. of France's Library , besides many others elsewhere , and all editions , but that at Rome , and others which follow it . So that this Authour plainly asserts , that the substance of the elements does remain still , and therefore can only be understood of a sacramental change . Thus I have , to satisfie you , examined your testimonies in behalf of Transubstantiation ; but whereas you referr me for more to Bellarmin and other Catholick Authours , I shall referr you for Answer to those no less Catholick Authours , though no believers of Transubstantiation , who have taken large and excellent pains in answering what they have brought ; either from Scripture or Antiquity . But you , having done your best in the latter , come at last to the former ; but so pitifully manage your business as to Scripture , that it had been more for the interest of your cause , you had never medled with it . For you only say , That the words of Scripture , taken in their proper and litteral sense , do evidently shew , that the only substance which is delivered in this Sacrament , is the body of Christ , and that the substance of bread is no more there . And all this comes only from hence , because Christ saith , This is my body , which you parallel with one , pointing to a hogshead of wine , saying , This is wine ; and with one holding up a purse full of mony , saying , This is gold : who if they intend to speak truth , must signifie , that the only liquor contained sub propriâ formâ , in the hogshead is wine ; and all the mony in the purse , gold . But how weak this is , will easily appear , 1. That you take it for granted , that the expression of Christ is not at all figurative , but of the same nature with those Propositions you mention , whereas it is largely proved , from the nature of a Sacrament , from many parallel expressions in Scripture , from evidence of Antiquity , Sense , and Reason , that these words of Christ cannot be otherwise than figuratively understood . 2. You suppose that Christ must speak of the individual bread , when he said , This is my body , as our parallel instances are of such individuals as are pointed to . But Bellarmin will tell you , That if Christ had spoken of the bread , when he said , This is my body , absurdissima esset locutio , it had been a most absurd speech . And Vasquez saith , If the Pronoune Hoc , This , should relate to the bread , he confesses , that by virtue of those words , there could be no substantial change made in it ; for the bread must remain still . So that by the confession of your own Authours , your parallel is absurd , and destructive to the Doctrine of Transubstantiation . The third errour of a General Council confirmed by the Pope , which his Lordship insists on , is , That of administring the B. Sacrament to the Laiety under one kind only . Of this he had spoken . before ; and thither you referr us for your Answer ; but I purposely omitted the handling it there , because it comes in more properly in this place . There his Lordship hath these words : To break Christs Institution is a damnable errour , and so confessed by Stapleton . The Council of Constance is bold , and defines peremptorily , that to communicate in both kinds is not necessary , with a non obstante to the Institution of Christ ; and although Bellarmin answers , that the non obstante only belongs to the time of receiving it after supper , yet his Lordship shews from the words of the Council , that the non obstante must relate to both clauses foregoing , and hath as much force against receiving under both kinds , as against receiving after supper . Yea , and the after words of the Council couple both together , in this reference ; for it follows , & similiter , And so likewise , though in the Primitive Church , &c. And a man by the definition of this Council may be an Heretick for standing to Christs Institution , in the very matter of the Sacrament : And the Churches Law for one kind may not be refused , but Christs Institution under both kinds may . And yet this Council did not err ; no , take heed of it . But all this cannot perswade you , That the non obstante relates to any thing but to the receiving after supper : which I much wonder at , since the design of the Decree of the Council was not to determine so much concerning the time of receiving , as the kinds in which it was to be received . Now to have said point-blank , that , notwithstanding the Institution of Christ to the contrary , they decreed that the Sacrament should be received in one kind only , would have been too plain and gross : and therefore they fetch it about with a compass , and put in something not so much controverted then , the better to disguise the opposition between their Decree and Christs Institution . But yet by the adding the administration in both kinds to the time of receiving , and the non obstante following both , and the decree being against that which is acknowledged to have been done by Christ , nothing can be more evident , then that the sense of the Decree implyes a non obstante to Christs Institution . For otherwise , To what purpose do they say , Although Christ administred the Sacrament in both kinds , and although the Primitive Church so received it , if they did not intend to decree something contrary to that administration and the practise of the Primitive Church ? Therefore , whether by the meer form of words the non obstante doth relate to Christs Institution or no , is not material , since the Decree it self is directly opposite to it . Although therefore they did not put receiving in one kind immediately after the non obstante ( which is that you object ) as they do , not consecrating after supper , and receiving fasting , yet the force of it reacheth to what follows after : as not only appears by the connexion And likewise , but chiefly by the scope of the Decree it self . For the Proctors of the Council , Henricus de Piro , and Johannes de Scribanis , in their ●uthentick Instrument , never exhibited any Controversie at all concerning the time of receiving , but only concerning the Communion in both kinds , because , they said , there was an ill custome ( so the observing Christs Institution was call'd ) for some Priests to give the Cup to the Laity , therefore they desired the Council , &c. So that it appears , this bringing in the time of receiving , was only the artifice of the contrivers of the Decree , that they might with less noise and clamour thwart the plain Institution of Christ. And accordingly it appears by the title of the Decree , that the intent of it was to forbid the giving the Sacrament to the people in both kinds , and so Carranza delivereth the Canon it self . Praecipimus sub poenâ excommunicationis , quòd nullus presbyter communicet populum sub utrâque specie panis & vini . Indeed , in the late editions of the Councils by Binius , a complaint is supposed to be made concerning the celebrating the Sacrament after Supper by some which he seems to take out of Cochlaeus , as appears by his notes ; but in the Instrument it self nothing appears of that nature , and since the Decree contains nothing against that custom as well as the other ; it seems probable , that this was made use of the better to bring on the other . But , whether it were so or no , is not very much material ; for however the Council confessing that Christ did so administer it , and that it was the custom of the Primitive Church , their prohibiting of it doth in its own nature imply a non obstante to the Institution of Christ. But this is that you stiffly deny , in saying , That neither the Decree of the Council , nor the practise of the Church in administring under one kind is contrary to the Institution and ordination of Christ. For , say you , to shew this , the Bishop should have made it appear that Christ did so institute this Sacrament of his last supper , that he would not have one part to be administred without the other , or that he would not have one part to be taken without the other . And it cannot be proved that Laymen are bound to receive in both kinds , from those words , Drink ye all of this ; For if this were a command and not a Counsel , it was given to the Apostles who all drunk of the Chalice . So that the state of the Question is this , Whether the Primitive Institution be universally obligatory to all Christians or no ? For you suppose , that either it was only a Counsel , or else it had particular reference to the Apostles . For the clearing therefore of this Question , there are but two wayes whereby we can judge of the obligatory nature of such Institutions ; either by an express declaration of the will of the first Institutor , or by the Vniversal sense of the Church concerning the nature of that Institution . And if these two appear evident in this present case , you will have no cause to question , but the communion in one kind is a violation of the Institution of Christ. There are two wayes whereby we may judge what the will of the Legislator is : First , by an express positive command . Secondly , by an unalterable reason on which the Institution is founded . Now that both these are clear in the case of Communion in both kinds I now come to manifest . First , by a positive command . For although we grant a difference between an Institution and a command , in this respect , that the Institution properly respects the thing , and a command the person ; and that an Institution , barely considered as such , doth not bind all persons to the observance of it ; as we say , Matrimony is Instituted by God , but do not thence assert that all persons are bound to it , but yet take an Institution as it referrs to persons , and so it is aequipollent with a command . And so Christs Instituting that all who believe should be baptized , is of the nature of a command to that purpose . But here is a great difference to be made between such things as were done at the Institution , and such things as were Instituted to be done afterwards . Thus Christ washed his Disciples feet , administred after Supper , and only to twelve ; but it doth not follow that these circumstances must be still observed , because though they were done then at that celebration , yet Christ doth not Institute or appoint the doing of them , when ever that Sacrament should be administred afterwards . For we are to consider , that though there were some things peculiar to the first Institution , yet the main of it was intended for the Church in all following times . Or else we must make the celebration of the Eucharist it self to be a meer arbitrary thing . Which if it be not , there must lye an obligation on men for the participation of it ; now this obligation must suppose a Law , and therefore we have gained this , that the Institution of the Eucharist doth imply a command for its observation in the Church . So that this action of Christ was not meerly a matter of Counsel , but there is something in it perpetually obligatory : Because it was not a peculiar rite appropriated to the present time , but intended for the future ages of the Church . This being proved in the General , that there is a perpetually obligatory command , implyed in the Institution ; we are now to enquire , How far this command extends ? Whether it extended only to the Apostles , or else to all believers ? That it was administred then to the Apostles only is granted , but the Question is , In what capacity it was administred to them , Whether only as Apostles , or as Believers ? and that must be judged by the intention of the Institution , Whether it were of that nature as to respect their Apostolical office , or else some thing which would be common with them to all other Believers to the worlds end ? If it were only and wholly proper to the Apostles , there can be no reason given , why the Institution of the Sacrament should continue after their times : neither could any other but the Apostles have any right , either to administer or to receive it . It follows then , that this Sacrament was not instituted meerly for the Apostles ; if not for them meerly , then what was contained in the Institution doth concern others as well as them . Now there are four things commanded in the Institution , Take , eat , drink ye all of this , and , This do in remembrance of me . If the Institution doth not meerly respect the Apostles as such but others also , then some of these things at least must extend to others too considered as Believers . And if some , why not all of them ? Were the Apostles considered as Believers , when they were bid to take and eat ? and as Apostles , when Christ said , drink ye all of this ? What reasonable pretext can be imagin'd for such a groundless fancy ? If they were not considered as Believers , when Christ said take , eat ; by what right can any Believers take and eat ? if they were then , so were they likewise afterwards , when Christ said to them , Drink ye all of this . As far therefore as I can possibly see , you must either admit the people to drinking all of this , or else deprive them of their right of taking and eating . And if you did speak consistently , you must say , that the peoples being admitted at all to the Eucharist is an act of favour and indulgence in the Church , but not necessary by any command of Christ , the Eucharist being administred to the Apostles and not the people ; and therefore it being indulgence to admit them at all , it is in the Churches power to admit as far and to what she pleases . This is the only rational way I can imagine , whereby you may defend the excluding the people from the Cup : But this you dare not say ; and therefore are put to the weakest shifts imaginable to reconcile it with the Institution of Christ. Some therefore say , That all these are words only of invitation and not of command , and that they only give a right , and not oblige men to do it . But if these be only words of invitation , what precept is there any where extant for the celebration of the Eucharist ? That they are an invitation we deny not ; but we say they are such an invitation as imply a duty to come , too . When a Father bids his Children come and sit down at Table , take and eat their meat : this is an invitation , but such as by reason of the authority of the person carry a command with them . So it is here , Christ invites to come , to take , eat , and drink ; but so that it implyes a command that men should come ; or else it must be wholly left at mens liberty , so that it is no sin for men to neglect or refuse to come . And if the Institution of Christ only gives men a liberty to take , eat , and drink , without any obligation to these things as a duty , How comes the administration of the Eucharist at all to become a duty , since there are no other words of command then what are contained in the Institution ? Which others being sensible of , they most unreasonably distinguish between Taking and eating , which they make an absolute command , and , Drinking all of this , which they say is only a conditional precept : and the reason they give , is , because St. Paul saith , This do ye as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of me ; and so , say they , Do this , doth not imply a command for the doing it , but only the relation which that action hath to the death of Christ when they do it ; for those words , as oft as you do it , do suppose it not to be simply necessary , but only shew , when they do it , to what purpose it should be done . But if there be any weight in this , it will as well hold still concerning the participation of the bread , as well as the cup ; for , as the Apostle saith This do ye as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of me , so he adds in the words immediately following , For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup , ye do shew forth the Lords death till he come . If therefore it notes only the relation of the action to its end without a command for performance in the one , it must do so in the other also . And so all the Sacrament will be a meer matter of liberty in the Church , whether men will observe it or no. But Bellarmin with wonderful subtilty hath found a command for the one and not the other ; which is , That in Luke after the bread , Christ saith , This do in remembrance of me , but omits it wholly after the cup ; by which , saith he , we are to understand , that Christ commanded that the Sacrament should be administred to all under the species of bread , but not under that of wine . And this he is so transported with , That in a rapture he admires the wonderful providence of God in the Scripture , who by this means hath taken away all possibility of evasion from the Hereticks . So it should seem indeed , when even his Brethren the Jesuits can scarce hold laughing at this subtilty . Since , St. Paul puts that expression , This do in remembrance of me , not after the bread , but after the cup. And therefore may we not more justly admire at the Providence of God in thus suffering men who will not see the truth under a pretence of subtilty , to infatuate themselves . And although it be added here , As oft as ye do it , yet both Vasquez and Suarez ingenuously confess , that contains under it a command for the doing it . For saith Vasquez , Qui praecipit ut opere aliquo commemoratio fiat alicujus beneficii accepti , ex modo ipso praecipiendi praecipit etiam ut fiat opus ipsum . Quis hoc non videat ? He that commands that by something to be done a commemoration should be made of a benefit received ; from the manner of commanding it , he doth command that very action to be done . Who doth not see this ? And Suarez saith , those words , Do this , or with that addition , In remembrance of me , or with that condition , As oft as ye do it , ad eundem sensum referuntur , come all to the same purpose . So that still it follows , if there be a command for one , there is for the other also . But yet there is a subtilty beyond any of these ; which is , That Christ in those words in Luke after the distribution of the bread , Hoc facite , Do this , did make the Apostles Priests ; and therefore , although they did receive the bread as believers , yet they received the cup as Priests , and so that belongs only to the Priests and not to the people . What will not these men prove which they have a mind to ! But it is their unhappiness , that their own subtilties do them the most mischief , as appears by these things consequent from hence ; which are repugnant to their own principles . 1. That Priests not consecrating , ought to receive the Cup , as well as those that do . For it is plain , that the Apostles did not consecrate now , but only receive ; and therefore this belongs to them as receiving , and not as consecrating . And by the same reasons that Priests not-consecrating may receive , others may receive too . 2. That if they were made Priests by those words , after the distribution of the bread , then they have no power to consecrate , but only the bread . For the words are , Hoc facite , Do this , i. e. that which Christ had then done . Otherwise , if those words be taken with reference to the Cup , then if the Apostles received the bread as believers , they received the Cup so too : for these words , Do this , must not relate to their receiving , but to their power of consecration . 3. If this be taken generally , Do this , and so giving them a power to do all that Christ did , then it will amount to a precept for all who administer to follow Christs example in the Institution . And therefore , as he did administer , the Cup , as well as the Bread , to all that were present , then all others will be bound to do so , if their power of administration be derived from these words , Do this , and they referr to the whole action of Christ. But I know what Answer will be here given , That these words relate to the Sacrifice , and not to the Sacrament , Hoc facite , implying their power of sacrificing , as to which they say , both elements are necessary , but not to the Sacrament . But 1. Not to enter on the Dispute about the Sacrifice ; if both elements be necessary to it , then it was great reason that the words makeing them Priests , should come after both elements , and therefore it cannot in reason be deduced from those words which are spoken only after the bread . 2. If these words relate to the Sacrifice , and not to the Sacrament , By what authority do they administer the Sacrament ? What other words are there to give them a power to do the one distinct from them , whereby they pretend a right for the other . 3. There is no evidence at all from Antiquity , that Hoc facite hath any respect to the Eucharist as a Sacrifice , or to the making the Apostles Priests . And so much is confessed by Estius , viz. that neither is this exposition found in any ancient Writer , nor is it suitable to our Saviours purpose . For , he saith , it is not absolutely said , Facite , but , Hoc facite , i. e. that which ye see me do , do ye likewise . So that still , by virtue of these words , those who do receive authority to administer , are bound to follow Christs example , and that as he did administer in both kinds to all who were present , so ought they to do likewise . But there is one Exception yet more left , which is the last Reserve , viz. that although it be granted to be a command , that the Cup should be administred to all , yet it is only a positive command , binding in the general ; but yet it is of the nature of all affirmative precepts , that though it alwaies binds , yet not at all times , but only in case of necessity , of which necessity the Church is the most competent Judge ; and therefore if the Church do not think it necessary , then the obligation ceases . To which I answer , 1. That upon this ground it will be in the Churches power to repeal or suspend all divine positive precepts as well as this . For the reason of this will hold for all others , which is , that they do not oblige , as they speak , ad semper , but only semper , i. e. not at all times , though they never cease to oblige . And therefore on this ground , for all that I can see , the Church may as well repeal the use of Baptism , or the Eucharist it self , as the communion in both kinds ; all being of of an equal nature , as affirmative precepts . But , Is it possible to imagine that Christ appointing positive Institutions in his Church , and giving precepts and plain directions about them , should yet leave it in the power of any men to reverse , alter , suspend the obligation to the performance of those commands ? Did not he foresee all cases of necessity , when he first appointed these things , and , if notwithstanding that , he makes a plain command , for the observance of them ; What can such a pretended power in the Church signifie , but an authority to alter or repeal what she pleases in the Laws of Christ ? 2. There is a great deal of difference between the nature of the obligation of affirmative precepts , and the prohibiting the use of something positively commanded . For , although positive precepts do not bind at all times , yet that reaches only to the thing it self , and not to the mode of performance . Thus we say , That the Eucharist being a positive Institution , doth not oblige men at all times to be partakers of it ; but if on that account any Church should undertake to forbid the celebration of it , this were a direct violation of the Law it self , and not an Interpretation of it in regard of circumstances . And what ever obligation of this nature there is , it respects the whole duty ; But it doth by no means follow , that therefore in the celebration the Church may declare what may be used , and what not . For the manner of performance in case it be performed at all , is absolutely commanded ; it is only the performance in general , which is of the nature of a positive precept . Thus we say , Men are not bound to pray at all times , though they be alwaies bound to pray ; but in case men do pray , they are indispensably bound to pray as God hath required them to do it . So we say here , That men are not bound at all times to administer , or receive the Eucharist ; but , in case they do , they are indispensably bound to receive it according to Christ's Institution . So that this of communion in both kinds , relates to the manner of a positive precept , and is not a distinct positive precept by it self ; and therefore is indispensably by any authority of the Church . Besides , your Church doth not meerly suspend the exercise of this in case of necessity , but forbids men the doing it , which is a direct and wilful violation of the Institution of Christ. And therefore the Question is not as it is strangely perverted by some of you , Whether it be necessary at all times to receive the Cup ( although even that be true in case of receiving at all ) but , whether it be in the Churches power at all to prohibit the receiving it ; and this we say , and are ready to make good to be a presumptuous violation of the Laws of Christ , and an usurping an Authority which may as well extend to all positive Institutions . And thus I hope I have made that appear , which you say his Lordship should have done , viz. that Christ did so institute the Sacrament of his last Supper , that he would , not have one part to be administred without the other , nor one part to be taken without the other . The same I might also at large shew , from the Reasons of this Institution , that they do equally belong to the people , as well as the Priests , and that those reasons are of a nature as unalterable as the Institution it self ; whereby I should have shewed the vanity of your distinction of the Eucharist into a Sacrament , and a Sacrifice , and the absurdity of your Doctrine of Concomitancy ; but that would be too large for our present design ; and that which you give me not sufficient ground to enter upon , since the obligation is sufficiently cleared from the Institution it self . I therefore proceed to shew , that the Primitive Church did alwaies understand the Communion in both kinds to be an indispensible part of the Institution of Christ. Which one would think were evident enough from S. Paul , in his bringing the Corinthians back to the Primitive Institution , as that unalterable Rule which they were to observe . For if , because of some ill customs which had obtained amongst them , he tells them , This is not to eat the Lords Supper ; How much more would he have said so , if there had been an mutilation of the parts of it ? And all along in his discourse he supposes Christs Institution to be the indispensable Rule which they ought to observe ; That which I have received of the Lord , I delivered unto you : not , certainly , to leave it in their power , Whether they would observe it or no , but to shew them , what their duty was , and what they ought unalterably to observe . Else he would never have told them so much of the danger of unworthy receiving , in eating the Bread , and drinking the Cup of the Lord unworthily ; For , Can we possibly think , that the rudeness of their access to the Lords Table was so great a sin , and the violation of his Institution to be none at all ? The Apostles were such strangers to the Doctrine of Concomitancy , that still both eating and drinking were supposed then , even by the most unworthy receivers . There were then no such fears of the effusion of the blood of Christ , or the irreverence in receiving it , and much less of the long beards of the Laity ; which are the worshipful reasons given by Gerson and others , why the people should not be admitted to the use of the Chalice . I do verily think the Apostles had as much care to preserve the due reverence of the Sacrament , as ever the Councils of Constance or Trent had ; but they thought it no way to preserve the reverence of the Sacrament , by shewing so little to Christ , as not to observe his Institution . But you very kindly grant that which you knew was impossible to be denied , viz. That in ancient times , when , you say , the number of Christians was small , it was the ordinary custom for all that would ( the Laity as well as others ) to receive the Eucharist in both kinds ; but , say you , we averr , this custom proceeded meerly out of free devotion , and not out of any belief , that it was absolutely necessary so to do , by virtue of Christs precept . It is no great matter what you averr , since you averr so monstrous a Doctrine of Transubstantiation , as confidently as you do this , and with much alike reason . For I have shewed already , that the Institution of Christ in reference to this , is perpetually obligatory , and that the Apostles look upon that as an unalterable Rule , and therefore your averring signifies nothing , when you never offer to prove what you averr . But , I pray tell me , By what means would you understand what precepts are perpetually obligatory , which are not clear to our present purpose ? If positive command , immutable reason , universal practice of the Church may prove any thing so , we have all these plain and clear for Communion in both kinds . And not the least suspition or intimation given , that they looked on it as a matter of free devotion , but of indispensable necessity . But , What mean you in saying , When the number of Christians was small , they received it in both kinds ? Do Christs Institutions vary according to the numbers of Communicants ? Hath not Christ the same power to oblige many as a few ? or , Do you think the numbers of breakers of his Institution make the fault the less ? But , When was it the number of Christians was so small ? Only in the Apostles times , or as long as the custom lasted of communicating in both kinds ? Do you think the number of Christians was so small in the Primitive times ? If you do , you lamentably discover your ignorance in the History of those times : Read the Christians Apologies over , and you will believe the contrary . But , Did this small number continue in the time of the Christian Emperours , even till after a thousand years after Christ ? For so long the Communion in both kinds continued so inviolably , that neither you , nor any before you , are able to produce one Instance of a publick and solemn celebration of the Eucharist in the Church wherein the People did not communicate in both kinds . And , Could a matter so indifferent as you suppose this to be , meet with no persons all this time , who out of reverence to the blood of Christ , should deny giving it to the People ? Nothing then but an unmeasurable confidence , and a resolution to say any thing , though never so false or absurd ( if it tend to the interest of your Church ) could make you say , That communion in one kind was alwaies , even in the first five or six hundred years , allowed publickly as well in the Church , as out of it . Than which , if you had studied it , you could scarce have uttered a greater untruth ; and in which there are such multitudes of your own party bearing witness against you . And Bellarmin is so far from helping you out in it , that he is extremely at a loss to offer at any thing which hath any tendency that way . But before we come to consider the Instances and Exceptions you make , we must somewhat further see , what the practice and sense of the Church was , that we may the better judge , Whether communion in both kinds were looked on as a matter only of free devotion , or as something necessary by virtue of Christs Institution . And for this I shall not insist on those multitudes of Testimonies , which manifest the practice it self , but briefly touch at some few , which more directly prove , that what they did , was , Because in doing otherwise , they should have violated the Institution of Christ. To pass by therefore the Testimonies of Justin Martyr , Irenaeus , Clemens Alexandrinus , Tertullian , all clear for the practice ; the first I insist on , is that of S. Cyprian against those who gave water in the Chalice , instead of wine ; for , whosoever doth but read the very entrance of that Epistle , will soon find that he looked on Christs Institution in all the parts of it as unalterable . For ( saith he ) although I know , that most Bishops do keep to that which agrees with the truth of the Gospel , and what our Lord hath delivered ; and do not depart from that which Christ our Master hath commanded and practised : yet because some , either through ignorance , or simplicity , in sanctifying the Cup of our Lord , and delivering it to the people , do not that which Jesus Christ our Lord and God , the Authour and Teacher of this Sacrifice , did and taught ; I have thought it a necessary part of my duty to write to you , that if any one continue in that errour , he may , by discovering the light of truth , return to the root and fountain of our Lords Tradition . I insist on this Testimony , not only for the clearness of it , as to the custom of giving the Cup to the people ; but especially for the evidence contained in it , of the unalterable nature of the Institution of Christ. For that he looks on as the great fault of them who ministred water instead of wine , that they therein departed from the example and precept of Christ. Now there cannot be produced any greater evidence of any obligation as to this , than there is as to the giving the Cup it self . For here is Christs example and institution equally as to both of them , and that in the same words , Drink ye all of it . If that were such a departing from the Institution to alter the Liquor , Would it not have been accounted as great , to take away the Cup wholly ? For afterwards he adds , If men ought not to break the least of Christs commands , How much less those great ones which pertain to the Sacrament of our Lords Passion , and our Redemption ? or to change it into any thing , but that which was appointed by him ? And if not to change the matter , certainly neither can it be lawful to order the administration otherwise than Christ appointed . I know Bellarmin saith , The parity of reason will not hold , because this is to corrupt the matter of the Sacrament : but S. Cyprian doth not insist on that as his reason , but the departing from the Institution of Christ , and this is done by one as well as the other . But he adds , That there was a precept for that , Do this . And so , say we , was there as plain for the other , Drink ye all of this . So that the parity of reason is evident for the one as well as the other . Upon the same ground doth Pope Julius afterwards condemn the using milk instead of wine , because contrary to Christs Institution ; and so he doth the dipping the bread in the Chalice : From whence we inferr , that they looked on Christs Example and Institution in the administration to be unalterable . But most express is the Testimony of Pope Gelasius , who finding some , from the remainders of Manichaism , did abstain from the Cup , gives express order , That they who were infected with this odde superstition , either should receive the whole Sacrament , or abstain wholly from it ; because the dividing one and the same mystery , cannot be done without great sacriledge . To this , Bellarmin tells us , two Answers are commonly given ; one , That these words are meant of Priests ; another , That they relate only to those superstitious persons ; but both of them are sufficiently taken off by the reason assigned , which is not fetched either from their Priesthood , or Superstition , but only from the Institution of Christ , that it would be sacriledge to part those things , which Christ by his Institution had joyned together . Thus we see , the sense of the Church is clear , not only for the practice , but the command too ; and the sinfulness of the violation of it . Although to you one would think it were wholly needless to prove any more than the Vniversal Practice , since the Tradition of the Church is equal with you , with an unwritten word ; but that is , when it makes for your purpose , and not otherwise . For in this case , though the Institution be express , the universal practice of the Church for at least a thousand years unquestionable ; yet because it contradicts the present sense and practice of your Church , all this signifies nothing at all with you . So true is it , that it is neither Scripture nor Antiquity , which you really regard , but Interest and the Present Church . And what Cusanus , like a downright man , spake out in this case , is that you must all at last take sanctuary in , That the Scriptures must be interpreted according to the current practice of the Church ; and therefore it is no wonder if they be interpreted at one time one way , and another time another way . And though this seem a very great absurdity , yet it is no more than is necessary to be said by such who maintain things so contrary to Scripture , and the practice of former ages of the Church . But you are so far from thinking this contrary to the practice of the Church in former ages , that you say , Not only in S. Thomas his time , but in all times of the Church , it was both publickly allowed , and commonly by some practised even in Churches , to receive under one kind only . A bold Assertion , and which is confidently denied by very many of your own Communion . For not only Cassander often confesses , that for above a thousand years after Christ , no instance can be produced of publick Communion in one kind : But Father Barns acknowledges not only that Communion in both kinds , is much more agreeable to Scripture , Fathers , and the Vniversal Church , but that per se loquendo jure divino praescribitur , taking it in it self , it is commanded by a Divine Law. But I know these men are too honest for you to own them , but as to the universal practice of the Church it is confessed by , Ruardus , Alphonsus à Castro , Lindanus , and many others . But we need no more than your S. Thomas himself , even in that very place , where you say , He rather makes for you , than against you ; for , when he saies , that Providè in quibusdam Ecclesiis observatur ut populo sanguis non detur , It was a custom providently observed in some Churches , not to give the Sacrament in the form of wine to the Laity ; He thereby shews indeed , that in his time about A. D. 1260. this custom did in some places obtain , but yet so , that the universal practice had been to the contrary ; for so much is confessed by him in his Commentaries on S. John , where his words are , secundum antiquam in Ecclesiâ consuetudinem omnes sicut communicabant corpori , ita communicabant & sanguini , quod etiam adhuc in quibusdam Ecclesiis servatur . According to the anceint custom of the Church , all did communicate in both kinds , which as yet is observed in some Churches . Now , Whether the universal practice of the Church in former times , or the practice of some Churches in his time , were more agreeable to the Divine Institution , we may appeal to Aquinas himself , who elsewhere gives this account , Why the elements of bread and wine , were made use of , and delivered severally , That they might denote a complete refection , and fully represent the death and passion of our Saviour . On the same accounts , Bonaventure and Alensis make both kinds necessary to the Integrity of the Sacrament . And the latter ( who was Master to the two former ) saies expresly , That whole Christ is not contained sacramentally under either kinds ; but his flesh under that of bread , and his blood under that of wine . Than which nothing can be more destructive to the Doctrine of Concomitancy . And it is learnedly proved by Pet. Picherellus , that the bread was appointed to represent not the body in its compleat substance , but the meer flesh , when the blood is out of it , according to the division of the Sacrifices into flesh and blood ; from whence it appears , that the Sacrifice of Christs death cannot be represented meerly by one kind , and that whole Christ is not contained under one , in the administration of it . And therefore Alensis rightly determines , that the res Sacramenti cannot be perfectly represented by one kind ; and thence sayes , He that receives but in one kind , doth not receive the Sacrament perfectly . No wonder therefore that he tells us , That some religious persons in his time ( when the contrary custom , through the superstition of people , had somewhat prevailed ) did earnestly desire that the Sacrament might again be received in both kinds . Thus we see , when this custom did begin , reason and argument was still against it , and nothing pleaded for it , but only some superstitious fears of some accidental effusions of the blood of Christ. But you are the man , who would still perswade us , That Communion in one kind was not only publickly allowed , but by some practised even in Churches in all times of the Church . And therefore in reason we must give attendance to your impregnable demonstrations of it . For otherwise , say you , How is it possible that the Manichees should find liberty and opportunity to communicate amongst Catholicks in Catholick Churches , without being perceived , since they never drank wine , nor communicated under the form of wine ? as 't is certain they frequently did in S. Leo 's time , and after . But you have very unhappily light of this for your first proof , which is so evident against you . For Leo , who mentions the Manichees communicating in Catholick Churches , tells the Catholicks , What way they might discern them from themselves , viz. that though they received the bread , yet they refused the wine ; by which , saith he , you may discover their sacrilegious hypocrisie , and by that means they may be expelled out of the society of Catholicks . You were therefore very ill advised , to make choice of this for your argument , which makes it plain , that all Catholicks did receive in both kinds , and that the Manichees might be thereby known that they did not . And if it were the custom for the Catholicks sometimes to receive in both kinds , and sometimes not , ( which is all the shift Bellarmin hath ) and the Manichees not at all , this could be no note of distinction between them ; for , although the Manichees might not receive at one time , they could not tell but they might at another . Now Leo's intention being , to give such a note of distinction , that they might not receive at all among them , it evidently follows , that all the Catholicks did constantly receive in both kinds , and that they were only Manichees who did abstain from the Cup. For that Story which Bellarmin insists on , and you referr to , of the woman , who being a Macedonian Heretick , yet pretending to communicate with the Catholicks , had the bread which her Maid brought with her , and which she took instead of the Eucharist , turned into a stone in her mouth , upon which she runs presently to the Bishop , and with tears confessed her fault , as we take it wholly upon the Faith of Sozomen , from whom Nicephorus transcribes it , so I cannot imagine what it proves for your purpose , unless it be , that they in whose mouths the bread turns into a stone too , will hardly have patience till the Cup be administred to them . For so both Sozomen and Nicephorus relate it , that immediately upon her feeling it to be a stone , she ran to the Bishop , and shewed him the stone , acknowledging with tears her miscarriage . But besides this , you bring several Instances from the Communion of Hermites in the wilderness , of travellers on their journeys , of sick persons in their beds , and private Communions in houses , and lastly , little Children in the Church , and at home in their Cradles , which communicated in form of wine only . And , Are not all these invincible proofs , that there was a publick , solemn administration of the Communion in one kind publickly allowed in Churches in all times ? When you can prove that the Communion of Hermites was in the Church , or that they did not receive as well the wine as the bread in the wilderness , or that such Communion was approved by the Church : That the Communion of Travellers was not meer Communion in Prayers , as Baronius and Albaspinaeus assert , without any participation of the Eucharist at all ; or if it were , that it was only a participation in one kind ( against which Albaspinaeus gives many reasons : ) That the Communion of the sick was without wine , when Justin Martyr saith , That both bread and wine were sent to the absent : when Eusebius tells us , That the bread given to Serapion , was dipt ; when S. Hierom saith of Exuperius , That he preserved the blood in a glass for the use of the sick : That Private Communions were without wine , since Gregory Nazianzen saith ; his Sister Gorgonia , preserved both the symbols of the body and blood of Christ ; and Albaspinaeus confesses , that one might be carried home as well as the other ; or that these were approved by the Church , since Durantus saith , That the use of Private Communions coming up by persecutions , were abrogated afterwards ; and are expresly condemned by the Council of Caesar-Augusta about the year 381. and the first Council of Toledo , about A. D. 400. Lastly , that the Communion of Infants was only in one kind either in the Church or at home , or that this Communion of Infants which the Council of Trent condemns , was a due administration of the Eucharist : When I say you have proved all these things , the utmost you can hence inferr , is , only that in some rare cases , and accidental occasions , Communion in one kind was allowed of . But what is all this to the proving that the stated , solemn administration of the Eucharist in one kind was ever practised , much less allowed , within a thousand years after Christ. And yet if you could prove that , you fall short of vindicating your Church , unless you add this , which you never so much as touch at , viz. That it was ever in all that time thought lawful to forbid the celebration of the Eucharist in both kinds . Prove but this , which is your only proper task , and I say as his Lordship doth in another case , You shall be my Apollo for ever . We proceed to a fourth errour , which is the Invocation of Saints defined by the Council of Trent . As to which , that which his Lordship saith may be reduced to three things , 1. That those expressions of the Fathers which seem most to countenance it are but Rhetorical flourishes . 2. That the Church then did not admit of the Invocation of Saints , but only of the commemoration of Martyrs . 3. That the Doctrine of the Roman Church makes the Saints more then Mediatours of Intercession . To these three I shall confine my discourse on this subject , and therefore shall follow you close in your Answers to them . For the first , When you are proving that the Fathers expressions were not Rhetorical flourishes , you would fain have your own accounted so . For , say you , How can it seem to any that duly considers it , but most extreamly partial and strange to term so many exhortations , so many plain and positive assertions , so many Instances , Examples , Histories , Reports and the like , which the Fathers frequently use , and afford in this kind ( and that upon occasions wherein dogmatical and plain delivery of Christian Doctrine and truth is expected ) nothing but flourishes of wit and Rhetorick ? And after , you call these meer put-off's , as before you had said , That when any thing in the Fathers is against us , then it is Rhetorick only ; when against you , then it is dogmatical and the real sense of the Fathers . But these are only General words , fit only to deceive such who believe bold affirmations sooner then solid proofs . This is a thing must be tryed by particulars , because it is on both sides acknowledged , that the Fathers did many times use their Rhetorick , and that such things are uttered by them , in their Panegyrical Orations especially , which will not abide a severe tryal . Doth not Bellarmin confess that St. Chrysostome doth often hyperbolize , and Sixtus Senensis say as much of others , that in the heat of their discourses they are carried beyond what they would have said in a strict debate ? But who are better Judges of these things then the Fathers themselves ? Are they not the men , who have bid us distinguish what comes from them in a heat , from that which they deliver as the Doctrine of the Church ? Have not they told us , that the popular Orations uttered in Churches are no rules of opinion ? Have not some of them , when they have seemed extream vehement and earnest , at last come off with this , That they have been declaiming all that while ? Witness St. Hierome against Helvidius ; and if you make not use of the same rule to put a favourable construction on his Books against Jovinian , Vigilantius , Ruffinus and others , you will as little be able to excuse him from strange Doctrines , as from intemperate heats . What put-off then is it for us to say , that St. Basil in his Oration on Mammas , and the forty eight Martyrs ; that S. Gregory Nazianzen in his Panegyrical Orations on St. Basil , St. Athanasius , St. Cyprian , his sister Gorgonia , St. Gregory Nyssen in his commendation of Theodorus , do make use of their Rhetorick in Apostrophe's to the persons whom they praise , without any solemn Invocation of them ? What is there herein unsuitable to their present purpose ? Is it any more then Oratours have commonly done ? What strange thing is it then , that those great Masters of Rhetorick should make use of their art to raise the people , not only to a high esteem of their persons , but of those vertues which rendred them so illustrious . Might not such expressions by way of Apostrophe be still used by such who are furthest from the Invocation of Saints ? although by their example we are taught how dangerous it is to indulge Rhetorick too much in such cases . But as though they foresaw the ill use would be made of them , they add such expressions as sufficiently tell us , they made no solemn Invocation of them ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the like . Had these persons a mind to deliver a Doctrine of Invocation of Saints , who speak with such hesitation and doubt as to their sense of what was spoken ? ( For it is a groundless shift , to say , that those expressions imply an affirmation and not doubt . ) That which we say then , is this , That the Doctrine of the Church is not to be judged by such Encomiastick Orations , wherein such Rhetorical flourishes are usual ; and when you bring us their plain and positive assertions , we will by no means give you that Answer , That those are flourishes of wit and Rhetorick . But his Lordship very well knew , how far you were from any such dogmatical assertions of the Fathers in this point , and that the most plausible testimonies which you had were taken out of those three great Oratours in their Panegyricks in praise of their Friends , or of the Martyrs ; and therefore it was he said , Though some of the ancient Fathers have some Rhetorical flourishes about it , for the stirring up devotion ( as they thought ) yet the Church then admitted not of the Invocation of Saints . That is it we stand on , that no such thing was admitted by the Church , if we should yield that any particular ( though great ) persons were too lavish in their expressions this way ; must these be the standard which we must judge of the Doctrine of the Church by ? We must consider the Church was now out of persecution , and ease and honour attended that profession of Christianity , for which such multitudes had endured the flames ; and the people began to grow more loose and vain then when they still expected Martyrdoms : This made these great men so highly commend the Martyrs in their popular Orations , not to propound them as objects of Invocation , but as examples for their imitation . Thence they encouraged them to frequent the Memoriae martyrum , that by their assemblies in those places they might revive something of that pristine heat of devotion , which was now so much abated among them . But the event was so far from answering their expectation , that by this means they grew by degrees to place much of their Religion , rather in honouring the former Martyrs and Saints then in striving to imitate them in their vertues and graces . And from the frequenting the places where the Martyrs were enshrined through the pretence of some extatical dreams and visions , or some rare occurrences which they say happened at those places , they began to turn their real honour into superstitious devotion , which at last ended in solemn Invocation . To which no small encouragement was given when such persons as S. Hierom and others , were so far from putting a stop to the growing evil , that though they confessed many miscarriages committed , yet they rather sought to palliate them and make the best construction of them , still hoping that this zeal in the people to the honour of the Martyrs would promote devotion among them ; whereas it sunk gradually into greater superstitions . This I take to be the truest and most faithful account of those first beginnings and tendencies to Invocation of Saints , which appeared in the latter end of the fourth Century . For before that time we meet with nothing that can bear the face of any positive and plain assertions , instances , examples , histories , or reports tending that way . Which is so clear , that Cardinal Perron after the best use of his wit and diligence to find out something to this purpose within the three first Centuries , at last confesses , that in the Authours who lived nearer the Apostles times no footsteps can be found of the Invocation of Saints . But when he gives this account of it , That most of the writings of that time are lost , it makes us see what poor excuses bad causes will drive the greatest wits to . For are not the writings of Justin Martyr , Irenaeus , Clemens Alexandrinus , Origen , Tertullian , Cyprian , Arnobius , Lactantius and others still extant , who were pious and learned men ? And is it possible that such men should all of them conceal such a Doctrine as this , which would so easily appear in the face of the Church ? But it is well we have the confession of so great a man for the best ages of the Church ; and not only so , but he acknowledges withall , That there is neither precept nor example for it in the Scripture . Which others not only assert , but offer to give reasons for it , for the Old Testament : Because the Fathers were not then admitted to the beatifical vision : and for the New Testament , Because the Apostles were men of such piety and humility , that they would not admit of it themselves , and therefore made no mention of it in their writings ; and withall , Because in the beginning of Christianity there would have been a suspicion , that they had only changed the names of Heathen Deities , and retained the same kinds of worship . These for the new Testament we admit of , not as Rhetorical flourishes , but as plain and positive assertions which contain a great deal of truth and reason in them . So that here is a confessed silence as to this Doctrine throughout all the story of Scripture , and for three hundred years and more after Christ ; and in all this time we meet with no such assertions , instances , examples , reports , and the like , which tend to establish this new Doctrine . But in stead of this , we meet with very plain assertions to the contrary , back'd with strong and invincible reasons ; and herein not to insist on those places in Scripture which appropriate Invocation to God only , and that in regard of his incommunicable attributes of omnisciency , and infinite goodness and power , which are the only foundations given in Scripture for Invocation ; nor to mention those places , where all tendencies to such kind of worship of any created Being , are severely checked ; and wherein an Inferiour and relative worship is condemned on this account , Because all worship is due to God only ; and wherein that very pretence of humility , in not coming to God , but through some Mediatour is expresly spoken against ; nor to inlarge how much this Doctrine of Invocation of Saints is injurious to God , by giving that worship to creatures which belongs only to himself , and how repugnant it is to Divine wisdom , that prayers should be made to Saints for them to intercede with God , when they cannot know what those prayers are till God reveals them ; nor how dishonourable it is to Christ , both in regard of his merits and intercession ; nor how great a check it is to true piety to put men to pray to them , whom they can have no ground to believe do hear or regard their prayers , and in the mean time to take them off from their serious and solemn addresses to God. Not to insist , I say , on these things , because I design no set discourse on this subject , which hath been so amply handled by so many already ; I shall only discover the sense of the Primitive Church in this particular by two things , the one of which takes in the first three Centuries , and the other extends a great deal farther : From which I doubt not , but to make it evident how farr the Invocation of Saints was from being received then . The first is , from the Answers given to the Heathens , when it was objected against the Christians that they did worship dead men and Angels . I confess , some have been so subtle as from hence to inferr that they did it ; or else , say they , the Heathens would never have charg'd them with it . But they who read the Christians Apologies will find farr more unreasonable things than this laid to their charge , and I hope they will not say , there must be an equal ground for all the other imputations also . But it seems they more believe the Heathens Objections then the Christians Answers , who utterly disavow any such thing . The first mention we find of any such imputation , is in that excellent Epistle of the Church of Smyrna to the Church of Philomylium concerning the Martyrdome of Polycarpe , wherein they tell us ; how some suggested to Nicetas , that he should desire the Proconsul that Polycarp's body might not be granted to the Christians ; Lest , say they , they should leave to worship Him that was Crucified , and worship him ; to which they return this excellent Answer . They are ignorant that we can never be induced to forsake Christ , who suffered for the salvation of all who shall be saved of the whole world , or to worship any other for him being the Son of God we adore . But the Martyrs as the Disciples and followers of the Lord , we love worthily for their exceeding great affection toward their own King and Master , of whom we wish that we may be partners and disciples . Can any thing be more express then this is , to shew what difference they put between Christ and the Martyrs ? Not that they worshipped one as God with an absolute direct worship , and the other as subordinate intercessours , with a relative and indirect worship , as you would have told them ; but they worship'd Christ and none but him , because he was the Son of God ; but for the Martyrs they loved them indeed , but they worship'd them not at all , for so much is implyed in the Antithesis between that and their worship of Christ. So that these words are exclusive of any kind of worship which they gave to the Martyrs ; for they were so far from giving them that worship which belonged to the Son of God , that they only expressed their love to them , without giving them any worship . And in the old Latin translation of this Epistle , of which there are two MSS. extant in England ; when they say , They can worship none else but Christ , it is there rendred , Neque alteri cuiquam precem orationis impendere , Nor impart the supplication of prayer to any other . As the late learned Lord Primat Vsher hath observed ; which utterly destroyes the Doctrine of Invocation . We proceed further to see what account Origen gives of the Christian Doctrine touching Invocation in his Answer to Celsus , wherein he had sufficient occasion given him to declare the sense of the Church at that time . And if he had known or approved any relative worship given to Angels or Saints , it is not conceivable that he should express himself in such a manner as he doth . For when Celsus enquires what kind of Beings they thought Angels to be , Origen answers , that although the Scripture sometimes calls them Gods , it is not with that intention that we ought to worship them . For , saith he , all prayers , and supplications , and intercessions , and thanksgivings are to be sent up to God the Lord of all , by the High-priest who is above all Angels , being the living Word and God. For to call upon Angels ( we not comprehending the knowledge of them , which is above the reach of man ) is unreasonable . And supposing it were granted that the knowledge of them , which is wonderful and secret , might be comprehended : this very knowledge declaring their nature to us , and the charge over which every one of them is set , would not permit us to presume to pray unto any other but God the Lord of all , who is abundantly sufficient for all , by our Saviour the Son of God. In which Testimony , we clearly see what the judgement of the Church then was concerning Invocation ; For in a matter of Divine worship equally concerning the whole Church , we have no reason to imagine that Origen should deliver any private opinion of his own . And herein we are plainly told , That all prayers and supplications are to be made to God only through Christ , that in such cases where we are Ignorant of the nature of Beings , it is unreasonable for us to pray to them ( as we certainly are concerning separated souls as well as Angels ) ; that in case we did know them , yet it would not be reasonable to pray to them , both because they are inferiour and ministring Spirits , and that God himself is abundantly sufficient for all through Christ. Now let any reasonable man judge , whether these Arguments do not hold as well against a relative and subordinate Invocation , as absolute and Soveraign . But no such distinctions were thought of then . For they judged all Prayer and Invocation , by the very nature of it , to import Divinity in that it was made to , and therefore that no created Beings how excellent soever were capable of it . From whence Origen afterwards supposing the Sun , Moon , and Starrs to be Intellectual Beings , gives this account , Why , notwithstanding that , they made no prayers to them . For , saith he , since they offer up prayers themselves to God through his only Son , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , we judge that we ought not to pray to them that pray . Since they would rather send us to God whom they pray to , then bring us down to themselves , or to divide our praying vertue from God , to themselves . Can we then suppose that the Church at that time did allow of prayers to be made to Saints in Heaven , supposing their praying there in behalf of the Church on earth ? For we see Origen goes on this ground , that all Intellectual Spirits which pray themselves , are not to be prayed too ; And that if they knew of our praying to them , they would send us to God and not accept of those supplications to themselves which are due only to God. In the beginning of the eighth Book , Celsus disputes against the Christians because they worship only the Supreme God , without giving any to the Inferiour Daemons ; and that upon this ground , because , saith he , They who worship the Inferiour Gods , acknowledging them Inferiour , is so far from dishonouring the Supreme , that he doth that which is acceptable to him . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For he that honours and worships those who are subject to him , doth not displease God whose they are all . These are Celsus his words ; from whence we are to take notice , that Celsus doth not plead for absolute and Soveraign worship to be given to these Inferiour Deities or Spirits , but only a relative and subordinate worship . So that if the Controversie had been between Celsus and a modern Romanist , all that Celsus here sayes must have been confessed on both sides , and the whole dispute only have been concerning those Daemons or Spirits which were to have this relative and inferiour kind of worship , viz. Whether those which Celsus call'd Daemons , or only the Blessed Spirits and glorified Saints . But Origen who went upon other grounds returns a far different Answer ; For , saith he , it is not lest we should hurt God that we abstain from the worship of any but God according to this word ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to render the inferiour worship of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to any but God ) but lest we should thereby hurt our selves , by separating our selves from our portion in God. And the reason he gives why Christ is to be worship'd is , from that divinity which manifested it self in him , and because of the unity of nature between God and him . And although Origen saith , That in some sense we may be said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to give some kind of worship to Angels and Archangels ; yet he saith , the sense of the word must be purg'd , and the actions of the worshippers distinguished . Yet in the following words he attributes that worship which is by supplication only to God and his only Son. So that still he reserves the offering up our prayers as the appropriate worship to God himself , through his only Son. For to him , saith he , we first offer them , intreating him who is the propitiation for our sins , that he would vouchsafe as our high Priest to offer our Prayers , Sacrifices , and Intercessions to God over all . Therefore our Faith is only in God through his Son , who hath confirmed it to us . And afterwards , Away ( saith he ) with Celsus his Counsel , that we should worship Daemons ( or inferiour spirits not taking them in the worst sense ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for we must only pray to God over all , and to the Word of God , his only begotten , and first born of all Creatures ; and we must entreat him , that he as High Priest , would present our Prayer , when it is come to him , unto his God , and our God , and unto his Father , and the Father of them that frame their life according to the Word of God. To the same purpose again in another place ; To whom we offer our first fruits , to him we direct our prayers , having a High Priest , who is entred into Heaven , Jesus the Son of God ; and we hold fast this confession while we live , through the favour of God , and his Son , who is manifested to us : And after saith , That the Angels help forward their salvation , who call upon God , and pray sincerely , to whom they themselves also pray . But not one word of any praying to them , but only to God through Christ. For , as he saith elsewhere , We must endeavour to please God only , who is over all , and pray that he may be propitious to us , procuring his good will with piety , and all kind of virtue . But if he will yet have us to procure the good will of any others , after him that is God over all ; let him consider , that as when the body is moved , the motion of the shadow doth follow it : so in like manner , having God favourable to us , who is over all , it followeth that we shall have all his friends , both Angels , and Souls , and Spirits , favourable to us . For they have a sympathy with them , that are thought worthy to find favour with God. Neither are they only favourable unto such as be worthy ; but they co-operate with them also that are willing to serve God over all , and are friendly to them , and pray with them , and intreat with them . So as we may be bold to say , that when men , who with a resolution , propose to themselves the best things , do pray unto God , many thousands of the Sacred Powers pray together with them uncalled upon . Here indeed we find that Saints and Angels do intercede in Heaven in behalf of the Saints on Earth , but that is not the thing in dispute between us : but here we find no such thing at all as an Invocation of them ; but he sayes , They pray together with us , when we pray to God himself , not when we pray first to them to pray with us . For this Origen makes to be wholly needless ; for if God be propitious to us , so will all the Sacred Powers be too . So that still we find in Origen , that Invocation was only to be made to God over all , although he saith , That with those who do sincerely call upon God , the Holy Spirits do joyn with them . To the same purpose Arnobius speaks , when the Heathens asked , Why they did not worship any Inferiour Gods , satis est nobis , saith he , Deus primus , the Supreme God is sufficient for us . In hoc omne quod colendum est colimus ; quod adorari convenit adoramus , quod obsequium venerationis poscit , venerationibus promeremur . In worshipping him , we worship all that is to be worshipped ; we adore all , that is fit to be adored ; we procure favour by shewing reverence to all that require it . Where we are still to take notice , that the Heathens did not blame them for not giving the highest kind of Worship to these Inferiour Deities , but for not worshipping them with the subordinate & relative Worship , which they said belonged to them . Now when in the Answer he saith , That in worshiping God , they worship'd all that was to be worship'd ; he utterly destroies any such Relative Worship , which may be given to Inferior Spirits . For we are to consider , that the Heathens themselves did not give the same kind of Adoration to their Heroes , and Inferiour Deities , which they did to him whom they accounted Supreme . And , setting aside the difference of the object , I can find no possible difference between the Invocation of Saints in the Church of Rome , and that of Daemons among the Heathens . And althoug● Bellarmin hath taken the greatest pains to clear the nature of that Worship , which is given to Saints ; yet , upon a thorow examination of it , we shall find that all his pleas would have held as well for the Worship of Daemons in the Platonists sense of them , as they do for the worship of Saints among Christians . Three things he tells us Adoration consists in , An Act of Vnderstanding apprehending some excellency ; An Act of the Will , whereby we are inwardly inclined to do something by an internal , or external act , by which we declare our sense of that excellency , and our subjection to it ; and lastly , An external Act , in which we bow or kneel , or shew some outward sign of subjection . Now of these three he saith , the second is most proper and essential , because the first may be without Adoration , and the last with Irrision of that we pretend to worship . Further he observes that there are so many sorts of Adoration or Worship , as there are degrees of excellency , of which he reckons three kinds , Divine , Humane , and between both , as the Grace and Glory of the Saints : and that these several sorts of Worship , according to these several excellencies , are not univocal , but analogical : and that they may be very well distinguished by the Internal Acts , for the inclination of the will is greater or less , according to the degree of excellency apprehended in the object . But as to the External Acts , it is not easie to distinguish them ; for , almost all External Acts , ( sacrifice only , and the things referring to it excepted ) are common to all kinds of Adoration . This is the substance of what he hath , for explaining the nature of Divine Worship : And by which I cannot possibly see , but that kind of Worship which was given by the Heathens to their Daemons , was defensible upon the same grounds that the Invocations of Saints is now . For as these apprehend a greater excellency in God , than in the Saints ; so did they in the Supreme God , than in those Inferiour Deities ; which they did not acknowledge to have an Infinite Nature in themselves , but only that they had the honour of being solemnly worshipped bestowed upon them . But this will be much clearer in the case of the Heroes , or the Apotheosis of the Roman Emperours , as Augustus for instance . The Roman Senate decrees , that Divine Honours shall be given to Augustus : we cannot think , that by virtue of this decree he assumed a Divine Nature , or became absolutely God , so that the Act of the Vnderstanding was of the same nature , which it would have been , supposing some Roman-Catholick should believe Augustus to have been a Saint : on which supposition , we will suppose a Heathen and him to be at their prayers together to him . I pray now tell me , Wherein lyes the difference , that one is Idolatry , and the other is not : for neither of them suppose him to be the Supreme God , both look on him as having a middle kind of excellency between God and man , the external actions are the same in both , and their apprehensions of excellency being equal , the inclinations of their Wills to testifie their devotion must be equal too . If you answer me , that one looks on him as a Saint , and the other doth not ; I may soon tell you , that is nothing to the purpose ; for , the Question is not , Whether he was a Saint or no , but , Whether the apprehension of a middle excellency between Divine and Humane , with a correspondent inclination of the Will , testified by external acts of Adoration be Idolatry or no ? If it be Idolatry in the one , it must be in the other ; for the ratio formalis is the same in both , viz. the apprehension of an excellency between Divine and Humane : for we are not enquiring , Whether the apprehension be true or false , but , What the nature of that act of Religion is , which is cons●quent upon such an apprehension . Now if it were not Idolatry in him ▪ that believed Augustus to be a Saint , and worshipped him ; How can it be made appear to be so in him , that believed him deified , or that Divine Honours did belong to him ? And if this be granted ; for my part , I cannot tell how you can excuse the Primitive Christians , that would rather suffer Martyrdom , than worship the Heathen Emperours ; for , although they all thought it Idolatry , yet upon these principles it could not be so ; but the worst that could be made of it , was this , That the Senate took that upon it , which it had nothing to do with , because it belonged to the Pope to Canonize men , and not to the Roman Senate . For , let me put it seriously to you , Whether you do not attribute the very same kind of authority to the Pope now , which the Roman Senate challenged in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of the Roman Emperours ? For , whosoever will compare the rites of Canonization in Bellarmin with the ancient rites of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , will find them exactly answering to each other . For , 1. They are put in a Catalogue of Saints , and must be owned by all for such . 2. Invocantur in publicis Ecclesiae precibus , They are prayed to in the publick prayers of the Church . 3. Temples and Altars for their sake , are dedicated to God. 4. The sacrifices of the Eucharist , of prayers , and praises , are publickly offered to God for their honour ; and then follow their Festivals , Images , Relicks , &c. What was there more done then , that publick Divine Honours were made to the Deified Emperours ; not that these Honours were wholly terminated upon them , but they thought the giving of this relative Honour to them , did redound to the greater Honour of the Supreme Deity ? So that we see , a new object of Divine Worship is solemnly appointed , upon the Popes Canonizing a Saint ; and no pretence can be made to excuse this from Idolatry , which would not have excused all those Heathens from it , who believed there was one Supreme Deity , and yet allowed Divine Honours to be given to such Spirits which were imployed by him , or attended on him . So that if the notion of Idolatry must only lye in such an act of the Will , which results from an apprehension of infinite excellency , which is only in the Supreme Being ; very few , if any , of the more intelligent Heathens were ever guilty of it . But if the formal reason of their Idolatry lay in offering up those devotions to that which was not God , which only belong to an Infinite Being ; I see not , but the same charge will hold on the same grounds , against those who Invocate Saints with those external acts of devotion , which are confessed to be the same with those wherewith we call on God. But nothing can be more unreasonable , than that Bellarmin should except Sacrifices , and things belonging thereto , from being common to the first and second sort of Adoration , and not except Invocation . For , Is it possible to conceive any act which doth more express our sense of an Infinite Excellency , and the profession of our subjection to it , than Invocation doth ? which doth it far more than Sacrifice doth ; for that being a meer external act , is consistent with the greatest mockery of God ; but solemn Invocation implies in its own nature our dependence upon God , and an acknowledgement of his Infinite Knowledge and Power . For Invocation lyes chiefly in the internal acts , and denotes primarily the inward desire of obtaining something from a Being above our own : So that , though I should grant the meer external acts of bowing and kneeling to be common to Adoration given to infinite and finite perfections ; yet I utterly deny that these acts are common to both , when the circumstances do determine the end and design of them . As no man by the meer bowing of Abraham to the Children of Heth could tell , whether it were civil or divine Adoration which he meant ; but none who understood all the circumstances of it , would have any reason to question it . But , suppose it had been declared before , that these men expected a more than civil Adoration , and that all the rites of solemn Invocation which Abraham at any time used to God , must be used to them too ; then the same external acts must have received a new denomination . So that though the meer external acts be common to civil and religious Worship , yet as those acts are considered with their several circumstances , they are appropriated to one or the other of them . Thus , though a man may use the same form of words to an Emperour on his Throne , and the same external posture , which he doth use after his death in a Temple consecrated to him ; yet in the one they are meerly signs of Civil Worship , but in the other they become Testimonies of Religious Adoration . So , although in the Invocation of Saints , no other words were used , but such as denote them to be Creatures still , yet if they be used with all the rites of solemn Invocation ; in places appropriate to Divine Worship , and in Sacred Offices , they thereby declare the Adoration intended to be greater than any meer creature is capable of . For we must consider , that as God is owned to be Infinite in himself , and to have incommunicable perfections , so by reason of them there ought to be some appropriated acts or signs of Worship , to declare our subjection to him ; which being determined for this end , either by the Law of God , or the consent of people , the attributing of them to any else but him , is a publick violation of his honour . Although in so doing , men profess that they intend them only as expressions of a lower kind of Worship than is due to the Supreme Being . But in such cases the protestation avails not , where the fact is evident to the contrary . For when men in the most solemn manner , in publick places of devotion , and in sacred offices , do invocate Saints , and yet think they dishonour not God by it , because they say , they do not worship them as God ; it is just as if a man should upon all occasions , in the Presence-Chamber , address himself to one of the King's subjects as to the King himself ; and being questioned for it , should only say , he did not dishonour the King by it , because he meant it not to him as a King , but as a Subject . But by so much is the dishonour greater because the Soveraignity of the King doth require that the rights of Majesty should not be given to any Subject whatsoever . So that it is but a vain pretence , when men use all the expressions whereby we declare our sense of the Infinite Perfections which are in God , to any Creatures , to say , They give them not that Worship which belongs to God , meerly because they do believe they are Creatures still . But , Is it possible for men to give the honour which is due to God , to the Creatures , or no , acknowledging them to be Creatures still ? or , Is it not ? If not , then none of the Heathens could be guilty of Idolatry , in worshipping Daemons , Heroes , and Deified Emperours ; if it be possible , then the acknowledging the Saints not to be God , cannot excuse men from the same kind of Idolatry , in the Invocation of them . And it is as frivolous a plea which is made for those forms of Invocation which are made to the Saints in plain terms , not to intercede with God for them , but to bestow upon them both temporal and spiritual Blessings ( of which multitudes have been produced by our Writers ) viz. That though the form of words be the same that is used to God , yet the sense is wholly that they would pray to God to bestow them . For , How should any other sense be understood , when these forms are allowed in Invocation ? For , although the Scripture may sometimes attribute the effect to the subordinate Instrument , as when S. Paul is said to save some , yet certainly the Scripture is far from allowing such a liberty in solemn Invocation : For upon this ground it might have been lawful for men to have fallen down upon their knees to St. Paul , and have intreated him to save them . Do you think , St. Paul would have approved such phrases in Invocation ? So that it is not the meer phrase , but as it is joyned with all rites of Invocation , which makes it look so like the most gross Idolatry . When you pray to the Virgin Mary , to protect you from your enemies , and receive you in the hour of death ; and to the Apostles , to heal your spiritual maladies , which forms are acknowledged by Bellarmin ; Can any reasonable man think , that the meaning of them only is , that they would pray to God to do these things for them . If one should bring his Petition to a Courtier for his Pardon , and in plain terms beg that of him which the King only can grant ; What man that had his wits about him , would ever imagine that he only meant by it , that he would entreat the King to do it for him . But God is more jealous of his honour , than to be put off by such Mockeries as these are : Nay , when your great men at the end of their most elaborate works conclude with a Laus Deo & beatissimae Virgini , What can be meant by it , but the attributing an honour of the same kind to the one as the other ? And when prayers are made to Saints , that through their merits they would do such things for them , it is hard conceiving the meaning should only be , that they would pray to God for them . Nay , some have expresly said , That God hath communicated that which of right belonged to him because of his divinity and omnipotency , to the blessed Virgin , & the Saints ; and , that which is more wonderful to their Images too . So Gulielmus Fabricius in his appropriation of Lipsius his Diva Virgo Hallensis , which it is thought by some that Lipsius only writ in imitation of some Heathen Goddess ; which may be a very probable account of that otherwise very unhappy undertaking of that learned Man. And as one said of the Pen he offered to the Virgin , Nothing could be lighter , unless it were the Book he wrote with it . But that professed Critick understood well enough the exactness of the parallel of the Worship of the Virgin Mary , with that of the Heathen Goddesses ; and therefore very suitably calls her Tutelaris Diva , by which his meaning might be guessed at , as Plato's was , by his using the name of God , or Gods. But however that be , we are sure the parallel is so great between the worship of Saints in the Church of Rome , and that of Heroes and Daemons amongst the Heathens , that if one be justified , the other cannot be condemned , and if one be condemned , the other cannot be justified . So that from hence it follows , that the arguments used by the Primitive Christians against that Worship , will hold against Invocation of Saints ; because the Heathens pleaded not for an absolute and soveraign Worship of them , but only such a kind of relative and subordinate Worship , as you profess to be due to Saints . Thus much may suffice to clear the notion of Worship in the Primitive Church , and to shew , how far that was from approving your Doctrine of the Invocation of Saints . The next Argument I intended to have insisted on , should have been the proving the Divinity of Christ from the Invocation of him , as Athanasius and several others do ; which could signifie nothing , if Invocation were then allowed to Saints . But this hath been so amply managed by others , and the sense of the Church having been sufficiently discovered by our precedent discourse ; I shall not need to insist any more on those foregoing times , but now come to that age of the Church , wherein the honour of the Martyrs seems to be advanced higher upon the ceasing of persecution . But still his Lordship saith , That the Church then admitted not of the Invocation of Saints , but only of the Commemoration of the Martyrs , as appears clearly in S. Augustine , who saith , Although they be at the Sacrifice named in their order , non tamen à Sacerdote qui sacrificat invocantur : they are not invoked by the Priest who sacrifices . Now to this you answer , The Father's meaning is , that the Saints departed are not invocated , or call'd upon by way of Sacrifice , i. e. as persons to whom the Sacrifice is offered ; which , you say , is a work of Religion due to God only : and this you prove was all that S. Austin meant , because in other places of his works , where he teaches , that not only Commemoration is made of the Saints departed in time of Sacrifice , but that it is done to this particular intent and purpose , viz. that they would pray for us ; which doubtless amounts to a virtual Invocation of them . And for this you produce several passages out of his works . Two things therefore must be enquired into . 1. What the meaning of S. Austin is , when he saith , That the Saints are not invocated at the sacrifice . 2. What his meaning is , in those places wherein he allows of that you call Virtual Invocation , viz. that the Saints would pray for us . 1. We are to enquire , What S. Austin's meaning is , when he saith , That the Saints are not invocated at the Sacrifice ; meaning no other , ( say you ) but the Sacrifice of the Mass , which you hope the Reader will mark for S. Austin's sake ; wherein you betray most egregious ignorance or fraud , if you either suppose the Christians called nothing else a Sacrifice at that time , but what you now call the Mass , or that they did it in the same respect that you do now . A Sacrifice of Prayer and Praise indeed they had , and a Commemoration of Christs Sacrifice in the Lords Supper , but no such thing as a propitiatory Sacrifice for the living and the dead ; and I pray mark this for your own sake . But for our better understanding S. Austin's meaning , we must consider that he is there comparing the honours which the Heathens gave to their Heroes , with those which the Christians give to the Martyrs . They , saith he , to those Gods of theirs , build Temples , erect Altars , appoint Priests , and offer Sacrifices ; but we do not build any Temples to the Martyrs as to gods , but raise Sepulchres as to dead men , whose spirits live with God ; neither do we build Altars , at which we may sacrifice to the Martyrs , but we offer up a Sacrifice only to the God of the Martyrs , and of us ; at which Sacrifice , saith he , as holy men of God , who through their confession of him have overcome the world , they are named in their place and order , but are not invocated by the Priest , who offers up the Sacrifice . Two things may here be understood by the Sacrifice , either the anniversary Sacrifice of praise to God , on the day of their Natalitia or Martyrdoms ; or else the celebration of the Eucharist , which was wont to be done at the memoriae Martyrum chiefly upon that anniversary day . Now there are many reasons to incline me to think that S. Austin doth not speak of any ordinary celebration of the Eucharist , but of that anniversary solemnity , which was wont to be kept at the tombs of the Martyrs on the day of their sufferings . Chiefly because S. Austin is here paralleling the honours of the Martyrs , with those of the Heathen Heroes ; and therefore it was reason he should speak of the greatest solemnities which were used for them . Now it is certain that there were such anniversary dayes then kept ( by many passages of those times , and somewhat before them ) especially in the African Churches ; and at these they offered up solemn prayers and praises to God. Both which are clear from this passage of S. Cyprian , Sacrificia pro iis semper ut meministis offerimus , quoties Martyrum passiones & dies anniversariâ Commemoratione celebramus : Where we find an anniversary Commemoration and Sacrifices offered at them . What these Sacrifices were , Rigaltius in his Observations on that place tells us ; Christiani , saith he , sacris anniversariis , laudes Deo dicunt , commemoratis eorum nominibus qui pro fide Christo dicta Martyrium fortiter obierunt . So that the Sacrifice was a Sacrifice of praise to God in behalf of the Martyrs . At which they had their Orationum Sacrificia too , as Tertullian calls them , who saith , Vnder the Gospel the pure Sacrifice is Prayer to God ; and that the sinner being cleansed , ought to offer to God , munus apud Templum , orationem sci . & gratiarum actionem apud Ecclesiam per Jesum Christum Catholicum Patris Sacerdotem , a Sacrifice in his Temple , viz. prayer and praise in his Church through Jesus Christ the Catholick High Priest of his Father . Hence S. Cyprian , Quando in Sacrificiis precem cum pluribus facimus , which Rigaltius explains by the publick prayers , which the Priest made for the people , and understands it wholly of the Sacrifices of prayers . So that these solemn thanksgivings to God in behalf of the Martyrs , and the prayers which were made for others , are those Sacrifices which did belong to these anniversary solemnities , Oblationes pro defunctis , pro natalitiis annuâ die facimus . Those oblationes pro natalitiis , were nothing else but these solemn Eucharistical Sacrifices in behalf of the Martyrs sufferings , which were called their Natalitia . Now to apply this to S. Austin : among the honours belonging to the Martyrs , he mentions the Sacrifice which was offered to God in Commemoration of them , and , What can this be other than on that anniversary solemnity which Tertullian and Cyprian mention , that was duly kept on that account . Now at this Sacrifice , saith he , they are named in their order , but not invocated . Which being understood of the anniversary day , and of the Sacrifices of prayers and praises , nothing can be more express against Invocation of Saints , than this place is . For , if ever they were solemnly invocated , it certainly would be on the day of the great solemnity for them ; and if then all prayers and praises were looked on as due only to God , as Sacrifices belonging to him , then it cannot but be a robbing God of his honour , to offer up either prayers or praises to any but himself . But , because it was the custom at those solemnities , to have the Eucharist administred , and that S. Austin afterwards mentions this , I shall not exclude the Eucharist here , yet that Sacrifice may still comprehend all the supplications which were then used ; and if the Saints were not invocated then , we have reason to conclude they were not at all . For the Commemoration of the Martyrs was made after the Ite , missa est , and the Catechumens were departed ; so that there was no such occasion for their Invocation at any other time , as then . So that if there were no Invocation of them at the Sacrifice , much less was there out of it ; since all the solemnities concerning the Martyrs were used in the time of Celebration . Thus we see , this place of S. Austin is full and clear against Invocation of Saints , and we must now enquire into what he saith elsewhere . Only we take notice here , that S. Austin not only appropriates Sacrifices as a thing peculiar to God , but Temples and Altars too . And that Sacrifice which was then appropriated to God , was not a propitiatory Sacrifice , but Eucharistical and supplicatory ; and by consequence , if Sacrifice only belongs to God , then all Thanksgiving and Invocation doth too . For both those , we see , were comprehended by the African Fathers under the notion of Sacrifice . We proceed now to enquire , what S. Austin saith elsewhere ; Whether he doth any where else allow Invocation as due to Saints ? For which we must consider , that St. Austin every where appropriates all acts of Religion only to God ; for he expresly saith , That we must only ask of God that good which we hope to do , that God alone must be served by the soul , because he alone is the Creatour of it : and that every glorified rational creature , is only to be loved and imitated ; that we ought not to apply our Religion to yield service to the dead ; that they must be honoured for imitation , not worshipped for Religion . That Religion is nothing else but the Worship of God , and therefore we ought not to consecrate our selves to any thing else , by any Religious rites . That those who have gone to Angels , instead of God , have fallen into many illusions , and deceitful fancies . Now is it conceivable , that a person constant to himself , should so often , and on such good grounds assert , that all Acts of Religion belong only to God , and yet withall ascribe religious Invocation as due either to Saints or Angels ? But we must further consider , that the ground of S. Austin's distinguishing between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , was not to assert different degrees of religious worship , but to make different kinds of worship of those two ; the one being properly religious worship , the other only cultus dilectionis & societatis , as he calls it , a worship only of love and respect . So that we quarrel not with the distinction it self , but with your misapplying it . For St. Austin plainly makes the honour given to Saints departed , to be of the same nature with that which is given them , while they live : all the difference is , saith he , we may render that honour to them with the more confidence , after they have over come . But still adds , That all religious worship is proper only to God. The only difficulty then is , What is to be understood by those other passages you produce out of him . And this we have gained already , that they cannot be understood of any religious worship , without an apparent contradiction . Your first Citation is , That the commemoration of Martyrs at the Holy Table , is not that we should pray for them , but rather that they should pray for us . To the same purpose the second is , That it is an injury to pray for a Martyr , to whose prayers we our selves ought to be recommended . The only things which can be drawn from hence are , that the Martyrs do pray for the Church on earth , and that we ought to recommend our selves to their prayers : But what is this to an Invocation of them , when it doth not so much as imply a direct desire of them to pray for us ? When this recommending our selves to the prayers of the Martyrs , is probably understood of nothing else , but a desire that God would hear the prayers which the Saints in Heaven do make on our behalf , without any address to the Martyrs themselves , that they would pray for us . Which seems very unreasonable , without good assurance that they did hear or understand those requests of that nature which are made to them . It is not therefore the saying that the Saints do pray for us , which makes it either lawful or profitable for us to pray to them . For since they ascribe that honour as alone due to God , so ought we to do too ; and I can hardly see how the very praying to Saints to pray for us , being performed with all the rites of solemn and Religious Invocation , can be excused from attributing that honour to the creature which is due only to the Creatour . And therefore I cannot but wonder at those who would make this only of the same nature , with our desiring Fellow-Christians to pray for us . For is there no difference between a mans intreating a Courtier to present his Petition to the King , and his falling down on his Knees to him with all the ceremony due to the King himself ; and then put it off , with saying , that in all that , he only desired him to sue to his Majesty in his behalf ? Although therefore we condemn not the solemn praying to God , not only to hear the prayers of the Church Militant , but of that part of it which is triumphant in behalf of the other in General ; yet this falls far short of solemn addresses in places of Divine worship , and in Sacred offices to the Saints , that they would pray for us . This is it , which as to that you call virtual Invocation , you should have proved out of St. Austin ; and yet even that falls much short of that direct and formal Invocation which is both used and allowed in the Church of Rome . But you offer at a further proof of a direct Ora pro nobis in St. Austin . For ( say you ) St. Austin doth profess it to be the General custom of Christians in their recommending themselves to the Saints , to say , Memor esto nostrî ; which surely no man will contend to signifie less than ora pro nobis . I grant , it signifies as much where St. Austin uses it ; but if you had consulted the place you might easily have seen how wholly impertinent it is to your purpose . For St. Austin speaks not at all there of Saints departed , but of them living ; and that it was a common thing among Christians to say to any one of them Memor esto meî , Remember me in your prayers ; which appears by the whole scope of that Chapter , where he speaks of giving alms , and the effect of them on those who received them in making them mindful of them . It cannot be denyed , but some of them did use such expressions to those who were near their Martyrdom ; but still this only shews the requesting it of them , when they were sure they heard them ; but it proves not any solemn Invocations of them when they were dead . But if we should grant , that there are expressions intimating a desire that Saints in Heaven should pray for them , which is the utmost you can make of the citation out of the Sermon on St. Stephen ( which with the rest de Sanctis is vehemently suspected , and the other on Job is counterfeit ) yet there is a great deal of difference to be put between such a calling upon Martyrs ( of whom only St. Austin speaks ) out of a desire of their prayers ; and a solemn and direct praying to them in the most Sacred offices and publick devotions : which is used and approved in your Church . For whatever there might be of private devotion ( not to call it superstition ) this way in St. Austins time , in desiring the prayers of departed Saints whom they could have no ground at all to believe they heard them ; yet you can bring no evidence of any use of this in the publick offices of the Church , much less of that direct Invocation , which we most of all charge your Church with . That then which began in meer hypothetical addresses , went somewhat further , when they began to grow more confident that in some extraordinary way or other the Saints heard them ; but still this kept it self within the bounds of the cultus dilectionis & societatis , that respect which arose from Love and Communion ; but it was a good while after before it obtained a place in the publick Offices , and yet longer , before it came to that height of Religious Invocation , which is more practised then pleaded for in the Church of Rome . For although great endeavours be used to smooth over these gross abuses with fair distinctions , of relative and absolute , direct and indirect worship ; yet the general practise is uncapable of being palliated by these narrow coverings , there being the most formal and direct Invocations used to Saints for spiritual and temporal blessings . Which being allowed of in common practise and the most sacred Offices , can never be excused from as great Idolatry as the Heathens were guilty of , in the worship of their Inferiour Deities . I conclude this therefore with that of Spalatensis , Religious Invocation of Saints is Heathenism ; and meer civil Invocation of them , though not so bad is yet dangerous . And therefore Wicelius justly saith , That the Invocation of Saints , is to be cast out of the Church , because it ascribes Gods honour and attributes to his creatures , and derogates from the office and glory of Christ by making Saints , Mediatours and Intercessours . Which is that we now come to consider . For , as his Lordship saith , When the Church prayed to God for any thing , she desired to be heard for the mercies and the merits of Christ , not for the merits of any Saints whatsoever . For I much doubt , this were to make the Saints more then Mediatours of Intercession , which is all that you will acknowledge you allow to the Saints . For I pray , is not by the Merits more then by the Intercession ? Did not Christ redeem us by his merits ? And if God must hear our prayers for the merits of the Saints , how much fall they short of sharers in the mediation of Redemption ? Such prayers as these the Church of Rome makes at this day , and they stand ( not without great scandal to Christ and Christianity ) used and authorized to be used in the Missal . To this you Answer in two things . 1. That such prayers as these , are used in Scripture . 2. That they are no derogation to the merits of Christ. For the first , you say , Solomon , Psal. 132. pray's to God to hear him , in effect for the merits of his Father David deceased , when he saith , Memento , Domine , David & omnis mansuetudinis ejus , Lord remember David and all his meekness , &c. This ( you say ) cannot be understood of Gods Covenant and promise made to David ( as Protestants vainly pretend ) but of Davids piety and vertue by which he was acceptable to God. For which reason he adds again , For thy servant Davids sake turn not away the face of thine Anointed . The like was done by Daniel , Moses , Hieremias and other Prophets praying unto God , and desiring their petitions might be heard for Abraham , for Isaac , for Israels sake , and for the sakes of other Holy men , who had lived before , and been in their times persons acceptable to God. And for this you quote St. Austin and Chrysostome . So far you have very fairly rendred Bellarmin exactly in English. But we are yet to seek , Why all those expressions in Scripture are not to be understood of the Covenant and Promise God made with those persons who are mentioned by you . For it is considerable , that you instance in none but such whom God had made an express Covenant with , as with the Patriarchs , and with David . But since you say , That this Answer hath not the least ground from the Text , therein you out-do Bellarmin , and speak that which the Text evidently contradicts you in . For Psal. 132.11 . next after those very words , For thy servant David 's sake ; it follows , The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David ; and , in the following verse , The Covenant God made with David is mentioned . If thy Children will keep my Covenant and my Testimony that I shall teach them , their Children also shall sit upon thy throne for evermore . You had then much consulted the Text when you say , This exposition had not the least ground from it ; for that speaks expresly of the Promise and Covenant which God made with David . And what you add to the text , of Davids piety and vertue , we may more justly say , hath not the least ground from it . For the word doth not signifie meekness but affliction , and therefore Aquila renders it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Symmachus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and some old Copies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all referring not to Davids merits , but to his sufferings . And it is not improbably conceived by some , that this Psalm is not of Solomons penning , but of Davids ; and that at the time when the Ark was to be brought back from the House of Obed Edom to Hierusalem . And in all those other places of Scripture mention'd , referring to Abraham , Isaac , and Jacob ; the Scripture is very plain , that they are to be understood of the Covenant God made with them : As appears by the very words of Moses , Remember Abraham , Isaac , and Israel thy servants , to whom thou swarest by thine own self , &c. And God himself speaks often of his remembring his Covenant which he made with Abraham , Isaac , and Jacob ; and that is the ground why the Prophets afterwards plead the remembrance of those persons , because the Covenant made with them was the foundation of all those blessings which the Children of Israel expected afterwards . The utmost that can be made of St. Augustins testimony is , That God may sometimes shew favour to a people that hath deserved ill at his hands for the sake of such as pray for them ; as he did to the people of Israel for the sake of Moses . And all that St. Chrysostom saith , is , That God may shew mercy to wicked men for the sake of their righteous Ancestours who are dead . But this is no more then he hath promised , That he will shew mercy to them that love him to the third and fourth Generation . But there is a great deal of difference to be made between the expressions of Gods bounty and the Foundation of our prayers ; which ought to be only a promise of God. And in this case we deny it not to be lawful , to pray that God would remember his promise : but that is a quite different thing from praying that we may receive blessings through the merits of the Saints in Heaven . So that it cannot be hence concluded , that 't is no unwarrantable thing to pray that God would hear us for the merits of the Saints . But this will be further explained now we come to see , how you vindicate this from being any derogation to the merits of Christ. We believe , say you , and confess that Christ alone is our Redeemer ; and that he , and none but he , by the just price of his most precious blood , hath paid our ransome , and fully satisfied the justice of God for our sins : all that we desire of the Saints , either when we mention their merits to God , or simply beg their Intercession with God for us , is only , that they would joyn with us in prayer to God , and that God would be pleased for their sakes , whose works were so grateful to him , to bestow on us the favours we ask . When things are so odious in the practise of them , that they cause all persons of any ingenuity among your selves to cry out upon them , then your Arts are , To let the same practises continue still , but to find out some plausible pretext to colour them over with . As it is here in the business of praying to Saints , and making them thereby to be Mediatours between God and us ; which implying so great dishonour to the all-sufficiency of the Merits and Intercession of Christ , you are fain to find out the fairest excuses you can make for it , although the practises still continue which overthrow all the distinctions you use . Thus it is plain , that direct and formal prayers in your Church are made to Saints ; but , you say , these are only to intreat them to pray for us : You pray expresly ( as his Lordship tells you ) That God by the merits and prayers of Saints would deliver you from the fire of Hell ; that you may obtain the glory of eternity by their merits ; and that God would absolve you from your sins by their Interceding merits : and yet for all this , you would have us believe , that you offer no derogation at all to the Merits and Intercession of Christ. But is it not the great honour of Christ that his Merits and Intercession alone are all-sufficient to procure all spiritual blessings for us ? And can any spiritual blessings be greater than deliverance from hell , eternal glory , and the forgiveness of sins ? And when you pray for all these through the Merits of the Saints , how can you possibly more disparage the all-sufficiency of the Merits of Christ ? For , if those be sufficient what need any more ? Will God grant that for the Merits of the Saints , which he would not do for the Intercession of Christ ? Or , do we want the Merits of the Saints to apply the Merits of Christ ? but still something of weakness and defect must be implyed in them , if some further additional Merits be wanting for the application of the former . If a Prince should declare to some of his Fathers Subjects , that he would satisfie his Fathers displeasure , and intercede for them that they should have an absolute pardon ; Would it not argue a distrust of the Princes Interest to sollicite some Inferiour Attendants to intreat the King to pardon them for their sakes ? And it is here a plain case , whatever you pretend , that you do not only pray that the Saints would joyn in prayer to God with you , but you run to them for help and assistance , in order to the obtaining the greatest spiritual blessings from God. For so the Council of Trent expresly defines , That it is not only good and profitable to Invocate the Saints , but ob beneficia impetranda à Deo per Christum ad eorum orationes , opem auxiliumque confugere ; for the obtaining of blessings from God through Christ , we ought to fly to their prayers , help and assistance . If nothing else were meant , but only that the Saints should pray for us , What means help and assistance mentioned as distinct from their prayers ? And the Roman Catechism more fully delivers it ( which was published by order of the Council of Trent ) viz. That Saints are not only to be invocated , because of their prayers to God , but because God bestows many blessings on us , eorum merito & gratiâ , by their merits and favour ; and after adds , Roga●i & peccatorum veniam impetrabunt , & conciliabunt nobis Dei gratiam ; Being asked , they will obtain the pardon of sin , and procure for us the savour of God. And , What can be more said concerning Christ himself ? Although therefore you say never so much , That your prayers are made to the Saints through the merits of Christ , and that you conclude all your prayers , per Christum Dominum nostrum ; yet all this cannot clear you from offering the greatest dishonour to the merits and intercession of Christ , since it is plain you rely on the Saints merits , in order to the obtaining the Blessings you pray for . But , say you , If the Saints being rewarded in Heaven for their merits , be not injurious to the fulness of Christ● merits , Why should their being heard by virtue of those merits , when they pray to God for us through Christ , or our desire that they may be heard for them , be thought injurious to Christs merits ? To which I answer , Those merits which you suppose in Saints , when they are rewarded in Heaven , have either an equal proportion with the reward they receive , or not ? If not , then they cease to be merits , and the giving the reward , ( though an act of Justice , the Promise supposed ) yet in it self is wholly an act of Grace and Favour ; if they have , then the full recompence is received by that reward , and nothing further can be obtained for others on their account . But in the sense it is to be suspected you take merits in , we as well assert , that the proportioning the reward in Heaven to the merits of Saints , is injurious to the fulness of Christs merits , as their obtaining mercies for others by reason of them . Only this latter adds to the dishonour , in that there is not only supposed a proportion between Heaven and them ; but , as though that were not enough , a further efficacy is attributed to them , for obtaining mercies for others too . His Lordship therefore does not go about to pervert the sense of the prayers used in your Missal ; but the plain words and sense of them evidently shew , how contrary they are to Christian Doctrine and Piety . Bellarmin's saying , that the Saints may in some sense be called our Redeemers , cannot be vindicated by that saying of S. Paul , That he became all things to all men , that he might save some ; because salvation respects the effect of Christs death , the promotion of which may in some sense be attributed to the Instruments of it , such as S. Paul was here on Earth ; but Redemption respects the merits by which that effect was obtained , and so belongs wholly to Christ , and cannot be attributed to any Saints , either in Earth or Heaven . When you can prove that any subordinate Instruments of Gods Power are called Numina , you may then excuse Bellarmin for calling the Saints so ; but that is so incongruous a sense of the word , that it needs no confutation . We are now come to the last Errour , which his Lordship here charges your pretended General Councils with , which is , concerning Adoration of Images . Of which , his Lordship sayes , That the Ancient Church knew it not . And the Modern Church of Rome is too like to Paganism , in the practice of it ; and driven to scarce intelligible subtilties in her servants writings that defend it . And this , without any care had of millions of souls , unable to understand her subtilties , or shun her practice . Here you say , The Bishop is very bitter ; but no more than the nature of the thing required . All the Answer you return to this , lyes in these things . 1. That the Church of Rome teaches nothing concerning the Worship of Images , but what the second Council of Nice did nine hundred years ago ; which is , that they must be had in Veneration , and due Reverence , but not have Divine Worship given to them . 2. That Images were in common Vse and Veneration too , amongst Christians in the Ancient Church . 3. That what abuses are crept in , are not to be imputed to the Church , but to particular persons . This is the substance of what you say to the end of the Chapter ; as to which a brief Answer will suffice , because I design not a full handling the Question of the worship of Images . If that which you say in the first place , be true , it doth the more prove that which his Lordship intends , viz. that not one barely , but two of those you own to be General Councils , have erred in this particular . If either those Councils , or you , had intended to have dealt fairly and honestly with the world , they and you should have declared , what that Veneration and Reverence is , which is due to Images ; What difference you put between that , and the Worship due to God ; and , Whether the same pretences and excuses would not as well have justified the Pagan Idolatries ? For this was it which his Lordship charged you with , that you came too near Paganism in your practice . But as to this you answer nothing , but that if you do , so did the Council of Nice too : But , Is that a sufficient excuse for you ? It is well enough known , What kind of Council that was ; How much it was opposed by the Synod of Frankford ; How many persons both in the Eastern and Western Churches , declared themselves against the Doctrine of it ? But , What a pitiful plea is it for you to say , That the Council of Trent had silenced all calumnies , by saying , That you attribute no Divinity to the Images , but only worship them with such honour and reverence as is due to them ? Would not any considerate Heathens have said as much as this is ? But , the Question is , Whether that Veneration of them which is used by you towards Images , be due to them , or no ? This you should have undertaken , and set the distinct limits between the worship due to God , and that which is given to these . You should have proved , that this is no prohibited way of worship ; for , if it be , it can in no sense be due to them . For , since God may determine the modes of his own worship , what he hath forbidden in his service , becomes unlawful ; and , so long as that command continues in force , all acts of worship contrary to it , are a positive kind of Idolatry . For , as there is a kind of Natural Idolatry lying in the worship of false Gods instead of the true ; so there is that which may be called Positive Idolatry , which is a worshipping God in a way or manner which he hath forbidden . From whence the Israelites in the Golden Calf , and the Ten Tribes in the worship of the Calves at Dan and Bethel , are charged with Idolatry , although they acknowledged the true God , and designed that for a Relative worship to him . If it were so then , you should have shewed us , How it comes to be otherwise now ? Where it was , God repealed the second Commandment ? or , What there was in it typical and ceremonial , that it must cease to oblige at Christ's coming ? or , What Reasons it was built on , which were only proper to the Jews , and cannot extend to the Christians too ? and , Why Relative Worship , and the helps for memory and devotion would not as well have justified the use and worship of Images , before Christ as after ? And why the same reasons from the danger of Idolatry , low conceptions of God ( and what other reasons you will give of that prohibition then ) may not hold as well still ? These , and many other things , if you would have vindicated the practice of your Church you ought to have insisted on . But since you omit them wholly , and think to put us off with repeating the decree of the Council of Trent , you only shew the weakness of your cause , and of those unintelligible subtilties which are used to defend it . To what his Lordship saith , That , in Optatus his time , the Christians were much troubled upon but a false report , that an Image was to be placed upon the Altar ; What would they have done , if Adoration had been commanded ? You answer , That it was either some Idol , or common Image of a Man , or of the Emperour , or the Governour of the Province , or something or other , but you cannot tell what . But if it had been any of all these , How easie had it been for them to have vindicated themselves by saying , That if it had been the Image of Christ , or some Saints , they would then have worshipped it , but they could not otherwise . But we see , it was not because it was such or such an Image , that the displeasure was taken , but that it was any at all ; and this was then justly looked on as a strange thing , being so contrary to the practice of the Christian Church , from Christ's time till that . This you deny , and say , That the Images of Christ and the Saints were in common use and veneration too , amongst Christians in the Ancient Church . How is it possible to deal with you , that dare with so much confidence obtrude such notorious falsities upon the world ? There being scarce any thing imaginable , in which there are more express testimonies for so many ages together then against the use or veneration of Images in the Ancient Church . With what scorn and contempt do the Primitive Christians reject the use of Images , and that not in regard of an absolute , but a relative Worship ? If you had read the discourses of the Christians in the Primitive times , such as Clemens Alexandrinus , Origen against Celsus , Tertullian , Minutius Felix , Arnobius , Lactantius , Athanasius , Eusebius , S. Augustin where they dispute against the Heathens , not meerly for worshipping Idols , but for any worship of Images , though meerly as they are signs or symbols of the proper objects of worship , you could not possibly have uttered so gross a falshood as that foregoing , unless you were resolved to offer violence to your conscience in it . If you think the Council of Trent brings off all this by saying , Men must not believe there is any Divinity in Images , and that it was the worship which arose from such an apprehension which the Father 's disputed against ; I assure you , you are greatly deceived . For there is no such difference between the Heathens apprehensions , and yours , as to the worship of Images , as you imagine . Who is such a fool , saith Celsus , to think that these are gods , and not the bare Images of them . You are greatly mistaken ( saith the Heathen in Arnobius ) if you think that we worship the Images for gods ; no , we worship the gods by and through them : and therefore saith , That the Ancients were not ignorant that the Images had neither sense nor divinity in them , but only that the rude and ignorant people wanted such things to put them in mind of the gods . What is there more than this , that you have to plead for the Vse of them ? Non ipsa timemus simulachra ( say the Heathens in Lactantius ) sed eos ad quorum imaginem ficta , & quorum nominibus consecrata sunt ; We worship not the Images , but them to whom they are consecrated ; which in your language is , They give them not an absolute , but a relative Worship . Nec simulachrum nec Daemonium colo , sed per effigi●m corporalem ejus rei signum intu●or , quam colere debeo , saith the Heathen in S. Augustin ; I neither worship the Image , nor the Daemon in it , but only by that visible representation , I am put in mind of that which I ought to worship . If you say , This was not the common sense of them , but only some more subtle men asserted this , because they could not defend their gross Idolatries otherwise ; the very same is most true of your selves ; your distinctions are such which the people are not capable of in the worship they give ; and they only serve to answer those , who dislike so palpable an imitation of Heathenism , as is in the worship of Images . And it will be hard to find that any Heathens had any higher thoughts of their Images , or used greater acts of worship towards them , than the people of your Church do . For , Are not miraculous operations among you ascribed to Images of Saints ? And what greater testimony of Divinity can be supposed in them ? Do not they fall down in the most devout manner to them , and make the most formal addresses before them ? and that not meerly with a respect to what is represented , but with a worship belonging to the Images themselves ? And ▪ What more than this did ever the Heathens do ? So that those Fathers who so much condemned that use and veneration of Images which was among the Heathens , must needs be understood to condemn as much that in your Church too . And thence Eusebius ascribes the setting up the Statue at Paneas to a Heathen custom , thence Epiphanius rent the vail at Anablatha , wherein the Image of Christ , or some Saint , was drawn : thence the Council of Elvira in Spain , forbids the placing of pictures in Churches , lest that which is worshipped or adored , should be painted on walls ; thence S. Augustin condemns the worshippers of pictures ; thence the very Art of Painting was condemned in the Ancient Church , as appears by Clemens Alexandrinus , and Tertullian ; and after all this , Is it possible to believe what you say , viz. That Images were in common use and veneration too in the Ancient Church ? But surely we shall have some evident proof for so bold an assertion : It were well if there were any thing looked like it . For all that you produce , is only that in Tertullian 's time , the Christians were abused with the nick-name of Crucis Religiosi ; and that in Chrysostom 's time , the Cross made a glorious shew upon the Altar . And , Are not these invincible proofs for the veneration of Images in the Ancient Church ? But , Why do you not as well say . The Christians worshipped an Asses Head , the Sun , and Ononychites ; for all these are in the same Chapter , and equally reckon'd among the false accusations of the Christians . But it seems you had rather believe the Heathens objection ▪ than the Christians denial , whose Answer we find express to the contrary in Minutius Felix , Cruces nec colimus , nec optamus , we neither wish for , nor worship Crosses ; and Tertullian , in answer to the former cavil , saith , Quod colimus nos , Deus unus est ; That which we worship , is only God. They were then strangers to any such distinctions of worship as you have invented to answer such places with , viz. that they did not worship them absolutely , but relatively . And for all that I can perceive , by the same distinctions you may prove that the Christians did worship Daemons and Heroes ; for , although they deny it never so much , I may as well say , they meant only by it , that they did not worship them with the Worship proper only to God , but with an inferiour and relative Worship , as you say as much concerning Images ; by which Art you may evade all denyals whatsoever . For your place of S. Chrysostom , the most that Bellarmin makes of it is , That in his time the Cross was wont to be painted in all places , in Cities , Houses , Chambers , Vessels , not a word in him of Altars , which he would not have left out , had he found any such thing in him , but you intended to take care we should not search too farr , by not referring us to the Edition of S. Chrysostom , which you , or your Authour made use of . But , What is all this to the veneration of the Cross , if we grant that it did make a glorious shew on the Altar ? Could it not make a glorious shew , unless they all fell down and worshipped it ? And , Can you think now , that these testimonies are sufficient against the whole strain of Antiquity , to perswade men that the veneration of Images was used in the Ancient Church ? But you are men who can believe what you have a mind to ; any word , clause , or impertinent allegation , which doth but seem afar off , to cast an eye towards you , is presently the consent of all Antiquity , when the most pregnant testimonies of the best Writers of the Church against you , are pish'd at , and scorned , or else eluded with most frivolous interpretations , or lastly suspected without any shadow of reason . As the Epistle of Epiphanius , and the Canon of the Eliberine Council have been in this present Controversie . When you shall produce your other testimonies , an Answer shall attend them ; but you must not think the story of the Statue at Paneas , which Eusebius attributes to a Heathenish Custom ( besides the many improbabilities in it ) will ever perswade us , that the Christians did then worship Images . But it would now take up too much time to examine that particularly , with others of a like nature . What I have said already , being sufficient to give an account of the sense of the Primitive Church , as to this subject , which is our present business . We pass by the resemblance between the Feasts at the Oratories of Martyrs , and the Heathen Parentalia , because you say now it seems wholly extirpated . And I would not charge you with more faults than you are guilty of , since you have enough without it . An evidence of which , is your discarding all persons from your communion , who are not such Bigots , as to approve all the abuses and corruptions among you : Which sufficiently appears by your censure of Cassander ; Who ( you say ) seemed to many to halt between God and Baal ; and , although he was not actually excommunicate , yet you would have us believe he was meritoriously so , because he favoured Heresie so much . By which we see , that we must not judge all of the Roman Communion , who profess themselves to be of it ; for so Cassander did to his death . But , whoever offer to find the least fault with the practices or Doctrine of your Church , let them pretend never so much to be of it , yet they may be excommunicate , sententiâ juris ; and so not only Cassander , but Erasmus , Fspencaeus , Ferus , Barns , Picherellus , and all other persons of reason and ingenuity among you , ought not to be looked on as persons of your Communion , whatever their pretences be . It seems your Church bears none but Hectors , and in a short time none shall be accounted Papists , but Jesuits : but it is hard to determine , Whether this discovers more the corruption , or tyranny of your Church ; which loves her degeneracy so much , that she proscribes all who dare in the least to tell her of her faults . But , How can she be found fault with , that takes such excellent care to prevent all abuses , as appears by the caution of the Council of Trent , in the present case of your worship of Images ? For , say you , As to any matter of abuse in this kind , crept in amongst the ignorant , we have already shewn , how careful the Council of Trent was to prevent and provide against all inconveniencies that could reasonably be foreseen or feared . So it seems , by the admirable Caution used by the Council , to prevent giving undue Worship to Images , by telling men , They must only give that which was due ; when all the Question was , What was due ? and , What not ? So it seems , by the care used to instruct the people concerning the nature of Divine Worship , and the danger of Idolatry . So it seems , by the leaving out the second Commandment in the offices of frequent use , lest the peoples consciences should check them , for doing that which God had severely prohibited . So it seems , by the unintelligible subtilties concerning the kind of that Worship which is to be given to the Image ; when yet a mistake there , makes the person who gives it , guilty of Idolatry . So it seems , by the continuance of the most gross abuses in this nature still in your Church , in this matter of Images . Of which such things are related by eye-witnesses , that the most gross Heathen Idolatries were not more unreasonable , absurd , and ridiculous , than they are . And if people continue ignorant , and sottish enough , all is well ; but if with Cassander , they charge you with any corruptions , then they stand meritoriously excommunicate : and it is well if they escape so ; for , although Cassander did , Father Barns did not . But , plead as long as you will for the care your Church hath taken to prevent all abuses in the worship of Images ; as long as the worship of Images continues , it is impossible to prevent the abuses in it ; since that is a great abuse it self , and gives occasion to all others . For , the vindication of your Doctrine depends on such Metàphysical Niceties , which the minds of people are uncapable of ; and , however they may serve you in disputation , are impossible to be reconciled with the practice of your Church , and the apprehensions of those who yield the worship you allow to Images . And therefore it is no wonder at all what Llamas relates of the Spanish people , that they were so besotted on their old worm-eaten Images , that when they were to have new ones in their rooms , they begg'd with tears to have their old ones still . But , although you grant these people guilty of indiscretion , yet by no means of Idolatry , because they did not call them their gods . If you think none were Idolaters , but such as did believe their Images to be gods ; I doubt you may find the number of Atheists as great as that of Idolaters in the world . But if we may guess at peoples apprehensions by their actions , these seemed as much to believe them to be gods , as any Heathens you can instance in . Your vindication of Llamas from saying , That the Images of Christ , and the Saints , as they represent their exemplars , have Deity or Divinity in them ; as it is undertaken somewhat fearfully , because ( you say ) you hope to clear his meaning , whatever his words seem to import ; so at last it stands on the sandy foundation of relative and absolute Worship , which being taken away , that and your Images fall together . I conclude this subject with his Lordships wish ; That men of learning would not strain their wits to spoil the truth , and rent the Peace of the Church of Christ , by such dangerous , such superstitious vanities . For better they are not , but they may be worse : And I fear are so . CHAP. IV. Of the possibility of Salvation in the Roman Church . Protestants Concessions ought not to be any ground to preferr the Communion of the Church of Rome . How far those Concessions extend . The uncharitableness of Romanists , if they yield not the same to us . The weakness of the Arguments to prove the Roman Church the safer way to salvation on Protestant Principles . The dangerous Doctrines of Romanists about the easiness of salvation , by the Sacrament of Pennance . The case parall'eld be-between the Donatists and Romanists , in denying salvation to all but themselves ; and the advantages equal from their adversaries Concessions . The advantage of the Protestants , if that be the safest way which both parties are agreed in , manifested and vindicated in several particulars . The Principle it self at large shewed to be a meer contingent Proposition , and such as may lead to Heresie and Infidelity . The case of the Leaders in the Roman Church , and others , distinguished . The Errours and Superstitions of the Roman Church , make its communion very dangerous in order to Salvation . THe main thing which now remains to be discussed , is , Whether the Communion of your Church , or ours , be rather to be chosen , in order to salvation . For that being the great end of our Faith , the tendency to the promotion of that , ought to be the Rule , by which we should embrace or continue in the society of any Church . And , since the regard men ought to have of their eternal welfare , doth oblige them to make choice of the best means in order to it , the bare remote possibility of salvation in any Church , ought to have no force or consideration at all in the determining their choice in a matter of so great importance . As , supposing a Pilot at Sea , whose only desire is to bring his ship safe into his desired Port , should be told , that there are two passages homewards ; the one free and open , in which there is no danger ; the other amidst many Rocks and Shelves in which yet there is a possibility of escaping : Would not he be accounted a very weak man , that should chuse this latter way , meerly because it is possible he may escape ; and neglect the other , in which there is no danger of miscarrying ? So it is here in our present case , the Protestants confess there is a possibility for some to escape in the Communion of the Roman Church ; but it is as men may escape with their lives in a shipwrack ; but they undertake to make it evident , there can be no danger , if they observe the principles of Protestant Religion ; VVould it not be madness in any then to neglect this , and make choice of the other , meerly because Protestants agree with you , that there is a possibility of salvation for some in the Roman Church ? Yet this is the great Argument you make use of , whereby to Proselyte such persons , who want judgement enough to discern the weakness and sophistry of it . That therefore we are now to enquire into , is , Whether your Communion , or ours , be more eligible upon principles of reason and prudence , in order to Salvation ? And two things are insisted on in behalf of your Church ; first , That Protestants grant the possibility of salvation in your Church , but you deny it in ours , and therefore yours is the safer way . Secondly , That the Faith of Protestants doth not stand upon those sure grounds which your Faith doth . As to the first , there are two things to be considered . 1. How far we grant a possibility of salvation to those in your Church . 2. What can be infer'd from that Concession in the choice of Religion . The occasion of entering upon this debate was the Lady's Query , Whether she might be saved in the Roman Faith ; to which his Lordship answers in General , that the ignorant that could not discern the errours of that Church , so they held the Foundation and conformed themselves to a religious life , might be saved ; and more particularly to the Lady , that it must needs go harder with her even in point of salvation , because she had been brought to understand very much for one of her condition , in these Controverted causes of Religion . And a person that comes to know much had need carefully bethink himself , that he oppose not known truth against the Church that made him a Christian ; for salvation may be in the Church of Rome , and they not find it that make surest of it . And after , he explains himself more fully , That [ might be saved ] grants but a possibility , no sure or safe way to salvation ; the possibility , I think saith he , cannot be denyed to the ignorants , especially because they hold the Foundation and cannot survey the Building . And the Foundation can deceive no man that rests upon it . But a secure way they cannot go , that hold with such corruptions when they know them . Now , whether it be wisdom , in such a point as salvation is , to forsake a Church in the which the ground of salvation is firm , to follow a Church in which it is but possible one may be saved , but very probable he may do worse , if he look not well to the Foundation ; judge ye . So that still his Lordship asserts the Protestants way to be the only safe way to salvation ; and that in the Church of Rome there is only a limited possibility of it , which is such , that he say's , A. C. or his fellows can take little comfort in . For as he after declares himself , Many Protestants indeed confess , there is salvation possible to be attained in the Roman Church ; but yet they say withall , that the errours of that Church are so many , ( and some so great , as weaken the Foundation ) that it is very hard to go that way to Heaven , especially to them that have had the truth manifested ; and a little after , But we have not so learned Christ , as either to return evil for evil in this heady course , or to deny salvation to some ignorant silly souls , whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that profess the Foundation Christ. And in another place , I do indeed for my part ( leaving other men free to their own judgement ) acknowledge a possibility of salvation in the Roman Church . But so , as that which I grant to Romanists , is not as they are Romanists , but as they are Christians , that is , as they believe the Creed and hold the Foundation Christ himself , not as they associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the gross Superstitions of the Roman Church . And I am willing to hope there are many among them , which keep within that Church , and yet wish the superstitions abolished which they know , and which pray to God to forgive their errours in what they know not , and which hold the Foundation firm , and live accordingly , and which would have all things amended that are amiss , were it in their power . And to such I dare not deny a possibility of salvation , for that which is Christs in them , though they hazzard themselves extreamly by keeping so close to that which is superstition , and in the case of Images comes too near Idolatry . The substance then of what his Lordship saith , is , that the Protestant way is a safe and secure way to salvation ; that in the Roman Church there is extream hazzard made of it , which all who love their souls ought to avoid ; but yet for such , who by reason of ignorance see not the danger , and by reason of honesty keep close to Christ the Foundation , and repent of all miscarriages known or unknown , he dares not deny a possibility of salvation for them . But he is far from asserting it of those , who either know the corruptions of that Church and yet continue in them , or such who wilfully neglect the means whereby they may be convinced of them . So that you strangely either mistake or pervert his Lordships meaning when you would inferr from these passages , That he asserts a possibility of being saved to those who joyn with the Roman Church , though their ignorance be not invincible , and though all or the chief motives which the Protestants bring against you be never so sufficiently proposed to them . For he still speaks either of such , whose meer ignorance doth excuse them where the Fundamentals are held and a life lead according to them , or else of such who condemn your superstitions as far as they are discovered to them , and sincerely desire to find impartially the way that leads to Heaven ; Of such as these he dares not deny a possibility of salvation . And you are the most uncharitable persons in the world , if you dare assert the contrary of Protestants . You expresly grant a possibility of salvation to those who joyn with the Protestant Church , in case of invincible ignorance ; and dare you deny it where there is a preparation of mind to find out and embrace the most certain way to Heaven , where all endeavours are used to that end , and where there is a conscientious obedience to the Will of God , so far as it is discovered ? If you dare peremptorily deny a possibility of salvation to such persons , meerly because not of the Roman Church , this prodigious uncharitableness would make us question the possibility of your salvation more , while you persist in it . For , What is there more contrary to the design and spirit of the Gospel then this is ? From whence must we gather the terms of salvation , but only from thence ? But it seems by you , although men give never so hearty an assent to the Doctrine of the Gospel , and live in the most universal obedience to it , and abound in the fruits of the spirit of God , of which Charity is none of the least ; yet if they be not in the Communion of your Church , there is no hopes of salvation for them . But , Who is it the mean while that hath the disposal of this salvation ? Is it in your hands or Christs ? If it be in His , we dare rely on His promise , although you pretend to know His mind better than He did himself . For , notwithstanding a sincere endeavour to know and obey the will of God , be the great Fundamental in order to salvation , which is delivered us by the Doctrine of Christ ; yet it seems by you , there may be this , where there may be not so much as possibility of salvation . By which assertion of yours , you are so far from working upon any , but very weak persons , to bring them over to your Church , that nothing can more effectually prejudice it among all such who dare believe Christ to be more Infallible then the Church of Rome . For what is this else , but to make heaven and eternal salvation stalk to the interess of your Church , and to lay more weight upon being in your communion then upon the most indispensable precepts of Christianity ? But when we consider how many among you dispute for the possibility of the salvation of Heathens , and yet deny it to those who own all the Fundamentals of Christianity ; when we see how much you lay the weight of salvation upon being in your Church , and what wayes you have for those who are in it to reconcile the hopes of salvation with the practise of sin , What can we otherwise imagine , but it is the Interess of your Church that you more aim at than the salvation of mens-souls . For you have so many wayes to give indulgence in sin to those who desire it , and yet such ready wayes of pardon , and such an easie task of repentance , and so little troublesome means of obtaining grace by the Sacraments , ex opere operato , that it is hard conceiving what way a man should sooner take , who would live in his sins and come to heaven at last , then to be of your Church . And yet you who are so soft and gentle , so kind and indulgent to the sons of your Church , are not more ready to send those who are out of it to the fire in this world than to eternal flames in another . But we have not so learned Christ , we dare not deal so inhumanely with them in this world , much less judge so uncharitably as to another , of those who profess to fear God and work righteousness , though they be not of the same opinion or communion with us . Yet , we tell men of the danger of hazzarding their salvation by erroneous doctrines and superstitious practises , and suppose that sufficient to perswade such who sincerely regard their future happiness to avoid all such things as tend so much to their eternal ruine . And such who will continue in such things , meerly because there is a possibility some persons may be saved in them by reason of Ignorance or Repentance , are no wiser men then such , who should split their ship upon a rock , because some have escaped upon a plank notwithstanding . So that considering on what terms we grant this possibility of salvation , this Concession of ours can be no Argument at all to judge yours to be the safer way ; and if upon the same terms you deny it to us , it shews how much more unsafe your way is , where there is so much of Interess and so little Charity . But you attempt to prove against all Protestants whatsoever , that yours is the safer way to salvation : Your first Argument in short is , Because we grant that you may be saved upon our own principles , but you deny that we may be saved upon yours . And what is there more in this Argument ( but a multitude of words to little purpose ) then there is in that which his Lordship examines ? For the main force of it lyes in this , That is the safest way which both parties are agreed in ; and therefore although you would have your Major proposition put out of all doubt , yet that wants more proof then I doubt you are able to give it . For although we grant , Men may be saved who have true Faith , Repentance , and a holy Conversation without any such Sacrament of Pennance , which you make necessary for conveying the grace of Justification ; yet , What security can thence come to a man in the choice of his Religion , since we withall say , That where there is a continuance in the corruptions and errours of your Church , it is hard to conceive there should be that Faith and Repentance which we make necessary to Salvation . You go therefore on a very false supposition , when you take it for granted that we acknowledge , that all those whom you admit to your Sacrament of Pennance have all things upon our own principles which are necessary to Salvation . And so your Minor is as false as your Major uncertain , viz. That many are saved in the Roman Church according to the principles which are granted on both sides . But you would seem to prove , That all admitted by you at death to the Sacrament of Pennance ( as you call it ) have all things necessary to Salvation upon Protestant principles , because , you say , That Faith , Hope , true Repentance , and a purpose of Amendment are necessary to the due receiving the Sacrament of Pennance , and these , are all which Protestants make necessary to Salvation . But supposing that , Is it necessary that all those things must be in them , which make the necessary requisites to this Sacrament of yours ? Do none receive this unworthily as many do a far greater Sacrament than this , granting it to be any at all . It seems Salvation is very easie to be had in your Church then , for this Sacrament is supposed by you , to be given to men upon their death-beds , when , you say , It cannot be supposed that men will omit any thing necessary for the attaining Salvation ; and by vertue of this Sacrament they receive the grace of Justification , whereby of sinners they are made the Sons of God and heires of eternal life . But I assure you , we who believe , Men must be saved only by the terms of the Gospel , make no such easie matter of it as you do ; we profess the necessity of a through-renovation of heart and life to be indispensable in order to happiness , for without holiness no man shall see the Lord : and although we take not upon us to judge the final estate of men whose hearts we know not ; yet the Gospel gives us very little ground to think , that such who defer the work of their Salvation to their death-beds shall ever attain to it ; The main design of Christian Religion being , The turning mens souls from sin to God in order to the serving him in this world , that they may be happy in another . For if Salvation depended on no more then you require , the greatest part of the Gospel might have been spared , whose great end is to perswade men to holiness of heart and life . It is not a meer purpose of amendment , when men can sin no longer , that we make only necessary to Salvation : But so hearty a repentance of sin past , as to carry with it an effectual reformation ; without this , men may flatter themselves into their own ruine by your Sacraments of Pennance and such contrivances of men , but there can be no grounded hopes of any freedom from eternal misery . And their Faith too , must be as weak as their Repentance shallow , who dare venture their souls into another world , upon no better security than that By receiving the Sacrament of Pennance they are made the Sons of God and heirs of eternal life . But you betray men into stupid ignorance and carelesness as to their eternal Salvation , and then deal most unfaithfully with them , by telling them that a death-bed Repentance will suffice them , and the Sacrament of Pennance will presently make them heirs of eternal life . So that although your Doctrine be very unreasonable , and your Superstitions very gross , yet this unfaithfulness to the souls of men makes all true lovers of Christian Religion , and of the Salvation of mens souls , more averse from your Doctrine and Practises , then any thing else whatsoever . For what can really be more pernicious to the world , then to flatter them into the hopes of Salvation without the performance of those things , which , if the Gospel be true , are absolutely necessary in order to it ? How quietly do you permit the most stupid ignorance in such who are the zealous practisers of your fopperies and superstitions ? What excellent arts have you to allure debauches upon their death-beds to you , by promising them that in another world , which our principles will not allow us to do ? How many wayes have you to get the pardon of sin , or at least to delude people with the hopes of it , without any serious turning from sin to God ? What do your Doctrines of the sufficiency of bare contrition , and the Sacraments working grace ex opere operato , of Indulgences , Satisfactions , regulating the intention , and the like , tend to , but to supersede the necessity of a holy life ? And at last you exchange the inward hatred and mortification of sin , for some external severities upon mens bodies ; which is , only beating the servant for the Masters fault . So that it is hard to imagine any Doctrine or way of Religion which owns Christianity , which doth with more apparent danger to the souls of men undermine the foundations of Faith and Obedience than yours doth . And as I have at large shewed the former , How destructive your principles are to the grounds of Faith ; so it hath been fully and lately manifested by a learned Bishop of our Church , What Doctrines and practises are allowed in your Church , which in themselves or their immediate consequences are direct impieties , and give warranty to a wicked life . Which being so of your own side , we must see what reasons you give for your most uncharitable Censure , That there are very few or none among Protestants that escape damnation : And this you call , The Doctrine of Catholicks . The Doctrine rather of a proud , tyrannical , and uncharitable faction of men ; who that they might gain Proselytes to themselves , shew how little they are themselves the Proselytes of Christ. But you offer us a reason for it : Because all Catholicks hold , that neither Faith , nor Hope , nor any Repentance can save us , but that only which is joyned with a perfect Love of God ; without the Sacrament of Pennance actually and duely received : and because Protestants reject this , they cannot be saved . But you are not at all the less excusable , because you assert such Doctrines from whence such uncharitableness follows , but the dreadful consequence of such Doctrines ought rather to make you question the truth of them . For , can any one who knows and understands Christianity ever believe , that although he had a most hearty repentance for sin , and a most sincere love to God , he should eternally perish because he did not confess his sins to a Priest and receive absolution from him ? I can hardly perswade my self , that you can believe such things , but that only such Doctrines are necessary to be taught , to maintain the Priests authority , and to fright men into that pick-lock of conscience , the useful practise of Auricular Confession . To what purpose , are all the promises of grace and mercy through Christ upon the sincerity of our turning to him , if , after all this , the effect depends upon that Sacrament of Pennance , of which no precept is given us by Christ , much less any necessity of it asserted in order to eternal Salvation ? If this then be all your ground of condemning Protestants , they may rejoyce in this , That your reasons are as weak as your malice strong . But it would be more fit for you to enquire , Whether such who live and dye in such a height of uncharitableness ( whether with or without the Sacrament of Pennance ) can be in any capacity of eternal Salvation ? For that is a plain violation of the Laws of Christ , this other even among your selves a disputable Institution of Christ ; and by many said , not to be at all of that necessity , which you suppose it to be . For neither Medina , nor Maldonate even since the Council of Trent dare affirm , the denyal of your Sacrament of Pennance to be Heresie ; and must then the souls of all Protestants be sent to hell , for want of that , which it is questionable , whether it were Instituted by Christ or no. But if this Sacrament of Pennance be so necessary to Salvation , that they cannot be saved who want it , What becomes then of all the Primitive Church which was utterly a stranger to your Sacrament of Pennance ( as shall be manifested when you desire it ) ? what becomes of the Greek Church which as peremptorily denies the necessity of it as Protestants do ? Both which you may find confessed and proved by Father Barns , and many testimonies of your own Authours are brought by him against the Divine Institution and necessity of it . Who very ingenuously confesses , That , by the Law of Christ , such a one by the sentence of very many Catholicks , may be pronounced absolved before God , who manifests the truth of his Faith and Charity , although he discovers not a word of the number or weight of his sins . What unreasonable , as well as uncharitable , men are you then , to assert , That no Protestants can escape damnation for want of that , which so many among your selves make unnecessary for the pardon of sin ? But it is just with God , that those who are so ready to condemn others , should be condemned by themselves : and if your Consciences do not condemn you here , your Sentence may be the greater in another world . Your second Argument against Protestants is , Because they want certainty of Faith by denying the Infallibility of Church and Councils ; but this hath been so throughly sifted already , that I suppose none who have read the preceding discourses will have the least cause to stick at this : and therefore we proceed to the Vindication of your censures from being guilty of the want of Charity . For you are the men , who would have us thank God , when you condemn us to hell , that we escape so ; and are angry with us , that we do not believe that you most entirely love us , when you judge us to eternal flames . For , you say , that your denyal of Salvation to us is grounded even upon Charity . If it be so , you are the most charitable people in the world , for you deny Salvation to all but your selves and some Heathens . But , say you , If Salvation may be had in your Church as Protestants confess , and there be no true Church or Faith but one , it follows that out of your Church there is no Salvation to be had . To which his Lordship had fully answered , by saying , T is true , there is but one true Faith , and but one true Church ; but that one both Faith and Church is the Catholick Christian , not the particular Roman . So that this passage is a meer begging the question , and then threatning upon it , without all reason or charity . And all your declamations about the way of knowing the Doctrine of the Catholick Church , have been spoiled by what hath been said already upon that subject . We come therefore to that which is the proper business of this Chapter , which is to examine the strength of that Inference which is drawn from the Protestants concession of the possibility of Salvation in your Church , viz. That thence it follows , that the Roman Church and Religion is the safer way to Salvation . Two things his Lordship observes the force of this Argument lyes in , the one directly expressed , viz. The consent of both parties of the possibility of Salvation in the Roman Church ; the other upon the By , viz. That we cannot be saved because we are out of the Church . And of these two he speaks in order . First he begins with the confession : as to which his Answer lyes in three things , 1. That this was the way of the Donatists of old , and would hold as well for them as the Church of Rome . 2. That if the principle on which this Argument proceeds be true , it will be more for the advantage of Protestants then of your Church . 3. That the principle it self is a contingent Proposition , and may justifie the greatest Heresies in the world . By this methodizing his Lordships discourse , we shall the better discern the strength of your Answers to the several particulars of it . In the first place he shews How parallel this is with the proceedings of the Donatists ; for both parts granted that baptism was true among the Donatists , but the Donatists denyed it to be true baptism among the Catholick Christians , and therefore on this principle the Donatists side is the surer side , if that principle be true , That it is the safest taking that way which the differing parties agree on . To this you Answer nothing , but what will still return upon your selves and discover the weakness of your Argument . For the crimes of Schism , and unsoundness of Faith , are still as chargeable upon you though we may grant a possibility of Salvation to some in your Church . And I cannot possibly discern any difference between the judgment of the Catholicks concerning the Donatists , and ours concerning you ; for , if they judged the Donatists way very dangerous because of their uncharitableness to all others , so do we of yours ; but if they , notwithstanding that , hoped that the misled people among them might be saved ; that is as much as we dare say concerning you . And you very much mistake , if you think the contrary , For his Lordship no where saith , as you would seem to impose upon him , That a man may live and dye in the Roman Church , and that none of his errours shall hinder salvation , whatsoever motives he may know to the contrary . But on the other side , he plainly saith , That he that lives in the Roman Church , with a resolution to live and dye in it , is presumed to believe as that Church believes . And he that doth so , I will not say , is as guilty , but guilty he is more or less , of the Schism which that Church first caused by her corruptions , and now continues by them and her power together . And of all her damnable opinions too , and all other sins also , which the Doctrine and mis-belief of that Church leads him into . Judge you now , I pray , Whether we think otherwise of those in your Church , than the Orthodox did of the Donatists ? So that if the Argument doth hold for you , it would as well have held for them too . And therefore his Lordship well inferrs , That this Principle , That where two parties are dissenting , it is safest believing that in which both parties agree , or which the adversary confesses , may lead men , by your own confession , into known and damnable Schism and Heresie ; for such , you say , the Donatists were guilty of . And such his Lordship saith , there is great danger of , in your Church too ; for , saith he , in this present case there 's peril , great peril of damnable , both Schism and Heresie , and other sins , by living and dying in the Roman Faith , tainted with so many superstitions , as at this day it is , and their tyranny to boot . I pray now bethink your self , What difference is there , between the Orthodox judgement of the Donatists , and ours , concerning your Church ? And therefore the comparison between Petilian the Donatist , and his Lordships adversary holds good still ; for , all your Answer depends upon a mistake of Protestants granting a possibility of Salvation , as I have already shewed you . And , in what way soever you limit this agreement , you cannot possibly avoid , but that it would equally hold as to the Donatists too ; for the concession was then as great , in order to Salvation , as it is now . But , you say , Whether he asserts it or no , it must needs follow from the Bishops Principles , that there can be no peril of damnation by living and dying in the Roman Church , because he professedly exempts the Ignorant , and grants as much of those who do wittingly and knowingly associate themselves to the gross superstitions of the Roman Church , if they hold the Foundation Christ , and live accordingly ; From whence you argue , That if neither voluntary nor involuntary superstition can hinder from Salvation , then there is confessedly no peril of damnation in your Church . And yet his Lordship saith , All Protestants unanimously agree in this , That there is great peril of damnation for any man to live and dye in the Roman Perswasion . And therefore ( saith he ) that is a most notorious slander , where you say , that they which affirm this peril of damnation , are contradicted by their own more learned Brethren . By which we see the unjustice of your proceeding , in offering to wrest his Lordships words contrary to his express meaning : and since all your Argument depends upon your adversaries confession , you ought to take that confession in the most clear and perspicuous terms , and to understand all obscure expressions suitably to their often declared sense . Which if you had attended to , you would never have undertaken to prove that this Lordship grants , that there is no peril of damnation in your Church , which he so often disavows , and calls it , a most notorious slander ; and , a most loud untruth , which no ingenuous man would ever have said . And even of those persons whom he speaks most favourably of , he saith , That although they wish for the abolishing the superstitions in use , yet all he grants them is , a possibility of Salvation , but with extreme hazard to themselves , by keeping close to that which is superstition , and comes so near Idolatry . Are these then such expressions which import no peril of damnation in the Roman Church ? And therefore when he speaks of the possibility of the Salvation of such who associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the gross superstitions of the Romish Church ; he declares sufficiently , that he means it not of those who do in heart approve of them , but only of such , who though they are convinced they are gross superstitions , yet think , they may communicate with those who use them , as long as they do not approve of them . Which errour of theirs , though he looks on it as dangerous , yet not as wholly destructive of Salvation . But since , your Answer to this , is , That he mistakes very much , in supposing such persons to belong to your Church and Communion : you are not aware , How much thereby you take off from the Protestants Confession , since those whom we contend for a possibility of Salvation for , are such only whom you deny to be of your Churches Communion , and so the Argument signifies much less by your confession , than it did before . Thus we see , how this Argument upon the same terms you manage it against us , would have held as well in the behalf of the Donatists against the Communion of the Catholick Church . For what other impertinencies you mix here and there , it is time now to pass them over , since the main grounds of them have been so fully handled before . We therefore proceed to the second Answer his Lordship gives to this Argument , viz. That if the Principle on which it stands , doth hold , it makes more for the advantage of Protestants , than against them . For if that be safest which both parties are agreed in , then 1. You are bound to believe with us in the point of the Eucharist . For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England , that in the most blessed Sacrament , the worthy Receiver is by his Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and real body and blood of Christ , truly and really , and of all the benefits of his passion . Your Roman Catholicks add a manner of this presence , Transubstantiation which many deny ; and the Lutherans Consubstantiation , which more deny . If this Argument be good then , even for this consent it is safer communicating with the Church of England , than with the Roman or Lutheran ; because all agree in this Truth , not in any other Opinion . You say , This can hold no further than communicating in the belief of this Opinion ; let that be granted , and , Doth it not then follow , that the Church of England's Opinion is the safest upon your own ground ? No , say you , for it is not such a common consent as doth exclude the manner of presence , by trans - , or consubstantiation . But , How sensless an Answer is this ! for the Argument proceeds so far as all are agreed : and the Church of England asserting that real presence , which all acknowledge as simply necessary , in order to the effects of it ; her Communion is more desirable on this account , than of either of those Churches which offer to define the manner of Christ's presence , since even the greatest men of your perswasion , as Suarez and Bellarmin assert the belief of Transubstantiation not to be simply necessary to Salvation , and that the manner of it is secret and ineffable . It is therefore quite beside the purpose , when you offer to prove , that Suarez believed Transubstantiation : for , although he did so , yet since he grants it not simply necessary to do it ; his Lordships Argument in behalf of the Church of England holds firm still , unless you can prove , that Suarez held the belief of that to be as necessary , as the belief of the real and spiritual presence of Christ. But you , after , attempt at large to prove , that the real participation of Christ in the Sacrament in your sense , is quite different from that of Protestants : If you mean a corporal participation , indeed it is so ; but that is not it , which is now enquired after ; but , Whether you do not allow any real and spiritual presence of Christ , besides the corporal manducation of that you call his body by Transubstantiation . If you do not , you would do well to shew , what effects that hath upon the souls of men ; if you do , then still the Church of England is of the safer side , which holds that in which all are agreed . Which is as much as we are here concerned to take notice of , as to this subject , the Controversie it self having been so lately handled . 2. His Lordship instances , in the Article of our Saviour Christ's descent into Hell ; both are agreed as to the Article of descent , but the Church of Rome differs in the explication ; therefore it is safer holding with the Church of England , which owns the Article without defining the manner . But , you say , He proceeds on a false supposition , for both are not agreed , what is meant by Hell , whether it be the place of the damned or no : But this doth belong to the manner of Explication , and not to the Article it self , which both equally own , and therefore the Church of England hath the advantage there . 3. He instances , in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kinds ; in which it is agreed by both Churches , that Christ did institute it so , and the Primitive Church received it so . Therefore according to the former Rule , 't is safest for a man to receive the Sacrament in both kinds . This ( you say ) is as little to the purpose as the former , because you do not agree that he did it with an intention , or gave any command that it should be alwaies so received ; but still you are quite besides the business ; for that is not our Question , but , Whether it be more safe to adhere to that which Christ instituted , and the Primitive Church practised , as you confess your selves ; Or to your Church , which prohibits the doing that which you confess Christ , and the Primitive Church did ? And we see , how great your Charity is , when you deny a possibility of Salvation to those who assert that Christs Institution is unalterable , or that all who communicate are bound to receive in both kinds . For all other things concerning this subject , I must referr the Reader to the precedent Chapter , in which they are fully discussed . 4. The dissenting Churches agree , that in the Eucharist there is a sacrifice of duty , and a sacrifice of praise , and a sacrifice of commemoration . Therefore it is safest to hold to the Church of England in this , and leave the Church of Rome to her superstitions that I say no more . Here you still pretend , you differ in sense ; but all this is only to say , you assert more than we do ; which we grant , but assert upon your Principle , that we are on the safer side . And so in the intention of the Priest you agree with us as to the necessity of matter and form , and therefore it is safer holding to that , than believing the necessity of the Priest's intention , which many deny . And if the Rule doth hold , as you assert , That that which both are agreed in , is safer than the contrary ; it will hold in matter of Opinion too , that it is safer to believe no more is necessary to the Sacrament , than both parties are agreed in . The last Instance is , That we say , there are divers errours , and some gross ones , in the Roman Missal ; but you confess there is no positive errour in the Liturgy of the Church of England ; and therefore it is safest to worship God by that , and not by the Roman Mass. This you answer as all the rest , by running off from the business ; for , you say , It cannot be safer to use that , because you Catholicks say , That to use it in contempt of the Roman Missal is certainly damnable sin , and destructive of Salvation . But , as it is not material what you say in this case , so it is not at all to the purpose ; for , if your Rule holds good , it must be safer ; and , if it be not , you must confess the Principle is false , That what both parties agree in , is the safest to be chosen in Religion . The same might be at large proved concerning the main things in difference between us , that , if this Principle be true , we have very much the advantage of you : as , You and we are agreed , that the Scripture is God's Word , but we deny that Tradition is so , therefore it is safer adhering to the Scripture , and let Tradition shift for it self . You and we are agreed that there are sufficient Motives of Credibility , to believe the Scripture ; but we deny that there are any such Motives to believe the present Churches Infallibility ; therefore it is safer to believe the Scripture , than the present Church . So that this Principle , if improved by these , and other Instances , will redound more to our advantage , than yours , considering that in the case we grant it as to you , it is joyned with a Protestation of the extreme hazzard which those run , who venture on your Communion , on the account of it ; but there is no such danger upon the agreement with us in those Principles which are agreed upon between us . 3. His Lordship answers truly , that this Proposition , That in point of Faith and Salvation , 't is safest for a man to take that way which the adversary confesses , or differing parties agree in , is no Metaphysical Principle , but a bare contingent Proposition , and may be true or false as the matter is to which it is applied , and so of no necessary truth in it self , nor able to lead in the Conclusion . Because consent of disagreeing parties , is neither Rule , nor Proof of Truth . For Herod and Pilate , disagreeing parties enough , yet agreed against Truth it self . But Truth rather is , or should be , the Rule to frame , if not to force agreement . And to prove this further , his Lordship shews , That if this Principle hold good , that 't is safest to believe as the dissenting parties agree , or as the adverse party confesses , a man must be an Heretick in the highest degree , if not an Infidel . For , 1. In the Question between the Orthodox and Arrian concerning the Consubstantiality of the Son of God with the Father ; The Orthodox confessed that which the Arrians asserted , viz. that Christ was of a like nature with his Father ; but they added more , viz. that he was of the same nature . Therefore upon this Principle it would be safest holding with the Arrians . 2. In the Question about the Resurrection ; the dissenting parties agree , that there ought to be a Resurrection from sin , to the state of grace , and that this Resurrection only is meant in divers passages of Scripture , together with the life of the soul , which they are content to say is Immortal ; but they deny any Resurrection of the body after death . And therefore if this Principle be true , it will be safest to deny the Article of the Resurrection . 3. In the great Dispute about the Vnity of the Godhead ; all dissenting parties , Jew , Turk , and Christian , and all sects of Christians , agree in this , that there is but one God ; and so by virtue of this Principle , men will be bound to deny the Trinity . 4. In the Article of the Divinity of Christ , The dissenting parties agree fully and clearly , that Christ is man ; but the Hereticks deny him to be God : if it be therefore safest to go by the consent of dissenting parties , or the confession of adversaries , it will be safest believing that Christ is a meer man , and not God. From whence his Lordship most evidently proves , That this Rule , To resolve a mans Faith into that , in which the dissenting parties agree , or which the adverse party confesses , is a meer contingent Proposition , and is as often false as true . And false in as great , if not greater matters than those , in which it is true . And where it is true , you dare not govern your selves by it ; the Church of Rome condemning those things which that Rule proves . And his Lordship justly admires , that while you talk of Certainty , nay , of Infallibility , you are driven to make use of such poor shifts as these , which have no Certainty at all of Truth in them , but inferr Falshood and Truth alike . And yet for this also , men will be so weak , or so wilful , as to be seduced by you . But now it is time to take notice , what Answer you return to these pregnant Instances which his Lordship uses ; and you think to take off all this by one General Answer , viz. That the Rule speaks this precisely , and no more , viz. that when two parties differ in point of Religion , 't is in prudence safest to take that way wherein both parties grant Salvation to be obtainable ; but in the former Instances , Salvation was not allowed by the Orthodox to the dissenters . But , how poor an Evasion this is , will be very easily discovered . For , 1. If that Principle be true , it must be built on that which his Lordship disproves , viz. That when two parties disagree , it is safest believing that which both consent in . For , let any reasonable man judge , on what account I ought to make choice of your Religion ; you say , Because both parties are agreed that men may be saved in your Church ; well then , I ask , Why I ought to believe that which both parties are agreed in ? Doth it not necessarily resolve it self into this Principle , That it is safest believing that which both parties consent in ? For if this be not safest , Why should I be more inclined by their consent , than otherwise ? So that if you let go this , you let go the only foundation on which that Principle stands . For if the consenting parties may agree in a falshood , What evidence can I have , but that this is one of those falshoods they may agree in ? And therefore it is far from being the safest way to venture upon that which the dissenting parties agree in . And because Salvation is a matter of the highest moment , if the Principle will not hold as to matter of particular Opinion , much less certainly in the most weighty affair of mens eternal Salvation . And it ought to be a safe Principle indeed , which men should venture their souls upon , and not so uncertain Topical an Argument as this is . So that it is so far from being a matter of prudence to make choice of Religion on such a Principle , that no man can be guilty of greater weakness or imprudence , than by doing so . 2. If this Principle should be limited only to a possibility of Salvation , yet , as to that , it is easie to discover , how false and uncertain a principle it is , because it it generally the nature of Sects , to be uncharitable , and to deny Salvation to all but themselves : Whereas the Orthodox Christians in all ages have hoped the best of those who were mis-led among them ; and on this ground it would still be safer to be on the Sectaries , than the Churches side . You have therefore gained an excellent Principle for the advantage of your Church ; which , if it hold for you , will hold as well for the most uncharitable Sectaries that are in the world . Nay , we may go somewhat further ; and , What think you if Heathenism it self will be proved the safest way to Salvation ? For many of you agree with them , That many of them might be saved , without any explicite knowledge of Christ ; but they deny , you can be saved by it : If then this Principle be found , farewel the Church of Rome , and welcome Philosophy . If you say , They are only some among you who assert the possibility of the Salvation of Heathens ; you know , the very same Answer will hold as to us ; for , you confess , That many Protestants grant no more to you , than you do to them , in order to Salvation . If you say , That Heathens may be saved only on supposition of a general Repentance ; that is all that any of us say as to you . So that if the Argument will hold one way , it must the other too ; and it argues , you are very much to seek for proofs , when you make use of this to perswade men to be of your Church . And you have no cause to triumph in the Conversion of such , who suffer themselves to be imposed on by so palpable a piece of Sophistry as this is . But your way is to deal with the weakest , and such as are capable of such easie impressions as these are . His Lordship , from that which was expressed , comes to that which was implyed in this Argument , viz. That we cannot be saved , because we are out of the Church . As to which , he saith , We are not out of the Catholick Church , because not within the Roman . For the Roman Church , and the Church of England , are but two distinct members of that Catholick Church , which is spread over the face of the earth . If you can prove , that Rome is properly the Catholick Church it self , speak out , and prove it . This , you say , you have done already ; but , how poorly , let the Reader judge . But , when you add , That in the day of account , the Roman Church will be found not an elder Sister , but a Mother ; it will be well for her , if it prove not , only in the sense wherein Babylon the Great is called so , viz. the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the Earth . The Controversie , you tell us , goes on touching Roman - Catholicks Salvation , and we must follow it ; though without breaking it into several Chapters , as you do , that so we may lay together all that belongs to the same subject . And here his Lordship distinguishes the case of such , whose calling and sufficiency gives them a greater capacity for understanding the Truth ; and such , whom , as S. Augustin speaks , the simplicity of believing makes safe . So that there 's no Question , saith he , but many were saved in corrupted times of the Church , when their leaders , unless they repented before death , were lost . Which he understands , of such Leaders , as refuse to hear the Churches instruction , or to use all the means they can to come to the knowledge of the Truth . For if they do this , erre they may , but Hereticks they are not ; as is most manifest in S. Cyprian 's case of Re-baptization . But when Leaders add Schism to Heresie , and Obstinacy to both , they are lost without Repentance , while many that succeed them in the errour only without obstinacy may be saved . That is , in case they hold these errours not supinely , not pertinaciously , not uncharitably , not factiously , i. e. in case all endeavours be used after Truth and Peace , and all expressions of Charity shewed to all who retain an internal Communion with the whole visible Church of Christ in the fundamental points of Faith. Such as these he confesses to be in a state of Salvation , though their mis-leaders perish . This is the summ of his Lordships discourse . Which you call , a heavy doom against all the Roman Doctors in general ( for what you say before , is a meer declamation and repetition of what hath been often examined . ) But you ask , How could they be all lost , who by the Bishops own Principles , were members of the true visible Church of Christ , by reason of their being baptized , and holding the Foundation ? But , Doth his Lordship say , that all such as are within the Church , are undoubtedly saved ? For he only faith , That no man can be said simply to be out of the visible Church , that is baptized , and holds the Foundation . The most then that can be inferred meerly from being within the Church , is only , the possibility of Salvation , notwithstanding which , I suppose you will not deny , but many who have a possibility of Salvation , may yet certainly perish . For many may hold the Foundation it self doctrinally , who may not hold it savingly ; and therefore it is a pitiful inference , because he grants they are members of the Church , therefore it follows from his Principles , they cannot be lost . But you are in a very sad condition , if you have no other ground for your Salvation , but being members of that which you account the Catholick Church . When Christ himself saith , Every branch in me , that beareth not fruit , he taketh away ; How much more such , who have nothing else to plead for their Salvation , but that they are in the Church ? It is not therefore the bare doctrinal holding that Faith which makes them members of the Church , which can give them a title to Salvation ; unless all sincere endeavours be used to find out , what the will of God is , and to practise it when it is known . But , you say , Your leaders did not refuse the Churches instructions , for they taught as the Church taught for many hundred years together ; and , What other means could they be bound to use than they did , to come to the knowledge of the Truth ? Yes , there were other means which they most supinely neglected themselves , and most dangerously with-held from others , viz. the plain and undoubted word of God , which is the only Infallible Rule of Faith. And let any Church whatsoever teach against this , it must incurr the same Anathema which S. Paul pronounces against an Angel from Heaven , if he teaches any other Doctrine . Did those then take care of their own , and others souls , whose greatest care was to lock the Scripture up from the view of the people , and minded it so little themselves ; which yet alone is able to make men wise to Salvation But you take the greatest advantage of his vindication of S. Cyprian and his followers , for therein you say , He vindicates more the Roman - Catholick Doctors , who had alwaies the universal practice of the Church on their side which they opposed ; and condemns Protestants , because , if S. Cyprian 's followers were in such danger for opposing the whole Church , so must they be too , who , you say , have opposed the Churches Instruction given them by the voice of a General Council . But , Who is so blind as not to discern that all this proceeds upon a palpable begging the Question , viz. that the whole Church is of your side , and against us ? which I have so often discover'd to be a notorious falshood , that there is no necessity at all here to repeat it . But , if we grant you that liberty to suppose your selves to be the whole and only Church , you will not more easily acquit all your Doctors , than condemn Protestants , both teachers and people . However , by this we see , that you have no other way to do the one , or the other ; but by supposing what you can never prove , and which none in their wits will ever grant you . The greatest part of the thirty seventh Paragraph in his Lordships Book , is ( you say ) taken up with personal matters , and matters of fact , in which you will not interpose ; and you might as well have spared your pains in that which you touch at , since they are spent only upon a bare asserting the Greek Church to be guilty of fundamental errours ( which we have at large disproved at the very beginning ; but , as his Lordship sayes , you labour indeed but like a horse in a Mill ; no farther at night than at noon ; the same thing over and over again ; and so we find it almost to the end of your Book ) and as vain an attempt to clear your Church from any errour endangering Salvation . For , Whether the errours of your Church be fundamental in themselves , or only by reduction and consequence ; Whether you hold all fundamental points literally , or no ; yet if we prove you guilty of any gross , dangerous , and damnable errours ( as his Lordship asserts you are ) that will be abundantly sufficient to our purpose , that , Yours cannot possibly be any safe way to Salvation . And , although we should grant your Church right in the exposition of the three Creeds , yet if you assert any other errours of a dangerous nature , your right exposition of them cannot secure the souls of men from the danger they run themselves upon , by embracing the other . So much for the Argument drawn from the possibility of Salvation in the Roman Church . CHAP. V. The Safety of the Protestant Faith. The sufficiency of the Protestant Faith to Salvation , manifested by disproving the Cavils against it . C's tedious Repetitions passed over . The Argument from Possession at large consider'd . No Prescription allowable , where the Law hath antecedently determined the right . Of the Infallibility of Oral Tradition . That , contrary to the received Doctrine of the Roman Church ; and in it self unreasonable . The Grounds of it examined . The ridiculousness of the Plea of bare Possession , discovered . General Answers returned to the remaining Chapters , consisting wholly of things already discussed . The place of S. Cyprian to Cornelius particularly vindicated . The proof of Succession of Doctrine lyes on the Romanists by their own Principles . ALthough this Subject hath been sufficiently cleared in the Controversie , concerning the resolution of Faith ; yet the nature of our task requires that we so far resume the debate of it , as any thing undiscussed already offers it self to consideration . For I cannot think it a civil way of treating the Reader , to cloy him with Tautologies , or Repetitions ; nor can I think it a way to satisfie him , rather by some incidental passages , than by a full and free debate . In all those things then , which we have had occasion to handle already , I shall remit the Reader to the precedent discourses ; but whatever hath the face of being new and pertinent , I shall readily examine the force of it . The occasion of this fresh Debate was a new Question of the Lady ; Whether she might be saved in the Protestant Faith ? In answering whereof , you say , The parties conferring are put into new heats ; Vpon my soul ( said the Bishop ) you may . Vpon my soul ( said Mr. Fisher ) there 's but one saving Faith , and that 's the Roman . Since the confidence seems equal on both sides , we must examine , Which is built on the stronger reason . And his Lordship's comes first to be examined ; which he offers very freely to examination . For , saith he , to believe the Scripture and the Creeds ; to believe these in the sense of the Ancient Primitive Church ; to receive the four great General Councils so much magnified by Antiquity ; to believe all points of Doctrine generally received as fundamental in the Church of Christ , is a Faith , in which to live and dye , cannot but give Salvation . And therefore , saith he , I went upon sure ground in the adventure of my soul upon that Faith. Besides , in all the points controverted between us , I would fain see any one point maintain'd by the Church of England , that can be proved to depart from the foundation . You have many dangerous errours about the very foundation , in that which you call the Roman Faith ; but there I leave you to look to your own soul , and theirs whom you seduce . Thus far his Lordship . Two things you seem to answer to this . 1. That such a Faith may not be sufficient . 2. That ours is not such a Faith. 1. That such a Faith may not be sufficient , because you suppose it necessary to believe the Infallibility of the present Church , and General Councils : But that we are now excused from a fresh enquiry into ; but you would seem to inferr it from his own principles of submission to General Councils . But by what peculiar Arts you can thence draw , that some thing else is necessary to be believed in order to Salvation besides what hath been owned as Fundamentals in all ages , I am yet to learn. And sure you were much to seek for Arguments , when you could not distinguish between the necessity of external submission and internal assent . But the second is the main thing you quarrel with , viz. That the English-Protestant Faith is really and indeed such a Faith : and this you undertake at large to disprove . You ask first , Whether we believe all Scripture , or only a part of it ? we answer , All without exception that is Scripture , i. e. hath any evidence that ever it was of Divine Revelation . In this , you say , we profess more then we can make good , seeing we refuse many books owned for Canonical by the Primitive Church , and imbrace some which were not . But in both you assert that , which we are sure you are never able to defend ; since we are content to put it upon as fair a tryal as you can desire , viz. That the Church of England doth fully agree with the Primitive Church , as to the Canon of Scripture . Which hath been already made good by the successful diligence of a learned Bishop of our Church , to whom I refer you either for satisfaction or confusion . But you are the men whose bare words and bold affirmations must weigh more then the greatest evidence of reason or Antiquity . You love to pronounce , where you are loath to prove ; and think to bear men down with confidence , where you are afraid to enter the lists . But our Faith stands not on so sandy a Foundation to be blown down with your biggest words ; which have that property of wind in them to be leight and loud . When you will attempt to prove that the Books call'd Apocrypha have had an equal testimony of Divine Authority with those we receive into the Canon of Scripture , you may meet with a further Answer upon that Subject . Just as much you say to disprove our believing Scripture , and the Creeds in the Primitive Church ; For , you say , The Fathers oppose us , we deny it : you say , The Councils condemn us , we say and prove the contrary . You offer again at some broken evidences of the Popes Supremacy from Councils and Fathers ; but those have been discussed already : and the sense of the Church at large manifested to be contrary to it . But I fear your matters lye very ill concocted upon your stomack , you bring them us so often up ; but I am not bound to dance in a circle because you do so . And therefore I proceed ; but when I hope to do so , you pull me back again to the Infallibility of Councils and the Church , the question of Fundamentals and the Greek Church ; and scarce a page between , but in comes again the Popes Supremacy as fresh , as if it had been never handled before . But I assure you after this rate , I wonder you ever came to an end , for you might have writ all your life time after that manner . For the decretal Epistles ( those impregnable testimonies ) St. Cyprian , Optatus , Hierom , Austin , the Council of Sardica , Ephesus , Chalcedon , and all the baffled and impertinent proofs you could think on , must be pressed to do new service , though they had run out of the Field before . And this you call a General Consent of the Fathers of the Primitive Church ; but I must beg the Reader not to be scared with these vizards , for if he touches them they fall off , and then you will see them blush that they are so often abused to so ill an end . But this is not the only subject ( viz. the Popes Supremacy ) which you give us so often over , but , within a page or two following , enter again worship of Images with as much ceremony as if it had never appeared ; but till you have Answered what I have said already , all that you have here is vain and impertinent : in the next page enter Transubstantiation : in the following , enter again Infallibility of Councils , Resolution of Faith , Apocrypha books , Fundamentals , Communion in one kind , &c. to the end of the Chapter . In all which I find but two things new , the one about Purgatory , which we shall meet with again ; and the other you call a Note only by the way , but it is so rare a one , it ought to be considered . Which is , That Protestants ought to prove their Faith agreeable to that of the Primitive Church by special undeniable evidence ; but they have not the like reason to require it of you Catholicks ( good reason for it ) but , you say , not that you are unable to do it , ( no , who would ever suspect that , who reads your book ? ) but because you are in full and quiet possession of your Faith , Religion , Church , &c. by immemorial tradition and succession from your Ancestours , that you do , upon that sole ground of quiet possession , justly prescribe against your Adversaries . And your plea , you say , must in all Law and equity be admitted for good , till they do by more pregnant and convincing arguments disprove it , and shew that your possession is not bonae fidei , but gain'd by force or fraud , or some other wrongful and unallowed means . To this , because I have not yet considered it , I shall now return the suller Answer . And it appears that the proof lyes upon you : For they who challenge full and quiet possession by vertue of immemorial tradition and succession from their Ancestours , ought to produce the conveyance of that tradition from him who alone could invest them in that possession . For although this title of possession be of late so much insisted on by those who see the weakness of other Arguments and are ashamed to use them , yet whosoever throughly searches it , will find it as weak and ridiculous as any other . For it is plain in this case the full right depends not upon meer occupancy , but a title must be pleaded , to shew that the possession is bonae fidei ; so that the Question comes from the bare possession to the goodness of the title and the validity of it in justice and equity . Your title then is immemorial tradition from your Ancestours : but here several things are to be contested , before your prescription be allowed , 1. That no antecedent Law hath determin'd contrary to what you challenge by vertue of possession . For if it hath , no prescription is allowable in it . For , prescription can only take place where the Law allows a liberty for prescription ; but if the Law hath antecedently determin'd against it , possession signifies nothing , but the liberty to make good the Title . Would any man be so mad , as to think that prescription of threescore years would have been sufficient in the Judaical Law , when all possessions were to return to their first owners by Law at every year of Jubilee ? So then the matter to be enquired here , is , What liberty of prescription is allowed by vertue of the Law of Christ ; for since he hath made Laws to Govern his Church by , it is most sensless pleading prescription , till you have particularly examin'd , how far such prescription is allowed by him . Let us then suppose , that any of the matters in difference between us , are one way or other determined by him , viz. Whether the Bishop of Rome be Head of the Church or no , Whether the present Church be Infallible or no. What do you say ? Hath he determined these things , or hath he not ? If he hath determined them one way or other , it is to no purpose in the world to plead possession or prescription ; for these signifie nothing against Law. So that the question must be wholly removed from the plea of possession , and it must be tryed upon this issue , Whether Christ by his Law hath determined on your side or ours ? It may be you will tell me , That in this case prescription interprets Law , and that the Churches possession argues it was the will of Christ. But still the proof lyes upon your side , since you run your self into new bryars ; for you must prove that there is no way to interpret this Law , but by the practise of the Church , and which is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of all , That the Church cannot come into the possession of any thing , but what was originally given her by the Legislator . Which is a task necessarily incumbent on you to prove , and I suppose you will find so much difficulty in it , that you had as good run back to Super hanc Petram , and Pasce oves , as undertake to manage it . He that undertakes to prove it impossible that the Church should claim possession by an undue title ; must prove it impossible , that the Church should ever be deceived . And herein we see the excellent way of this proof . For suppose the matter in dispute be the Roman Churches Infallibility , this , you say , you are in possession of ( though that be the thing in question ) , well , we will suppose it , that we may discern your proofs . I demand then , On what account do you challenge this ? you say , By prescription . I further ask , How you prove this prescription sufficient ? you say , Because the Church cannot challenge any thing but what belongs to her . I demand a proof of that : your Answer must be , Because the Church cannot be deceived ; so that the proof at last comes to this , The Church is Infallible because she is Infallible . Well , but suppose this Infallibility challenged , be only an Infallibility of Tradition , and not a Doctrinal Infallibility in either Pope or Councils . Yet still I am as unsatisfied as ever . For I ask , Whether am I bound to believe what the present Church delivers to be Infallible ? Yes . On what account am I bound to believe it ? Because the present Church cannot be deceived in what the Church of the former age believed , nor that in the preceding , and so up till the time of Christ. But , 1. How can you assure me , the present Church obliges me to believe nothing , but only what , and so far , as it received it from the former Church ? What evidence can you bring to convince me , both that the Church alwayes observed this rule and could never be deceived in it ? For I see the Roman Church asserts , that things may be de fide in one age , which were not in another ; at least Pope , and Councils challenge this , and this is the common Doctrine maintained there , and others are looked on as no members of their Church who assert the contrary ; but as persons , at least meritoriously , if not actually , excommunicate . Where then shall I satisfie my self what the sense of your Church is , as to this particular ? Must I believe a very few persons whom the rest disown as Heretical and Seditious persons ? or ought I not rather to take the judgement of the greatest and most approved persons in that Church ? And these disown any such Doctrine ; but assert that the Church may determine things de fide which were not so before : in which case I ask , Whether , when a thing is de novo determined to be de fide , that Church believed as the precedent did , or no ? If it did , How comes any thing to be de fide which was not before ? If it did not , What assurance can I have that every age of the Church believes just as the precedent did , and no otherwise ? when I see they profess the contrary . And if a thing may be de fide in one age , which was not in a foregoing , then a Church may deliver that as a matter of Faith at one time , which was never accounted so before : by which means the present Church may oblige me to believe that as a matter of Faith which never was so in Christ or the Apostles times , and so the Infallibility on the account of Tradition is destroyed . 2. What security is there , that in no age of the Church any practises should come in , which were not used in the precedent ? You may say , Because they could not be deceived what their fore Fathers did ; but that satisfies not , unless you prove that all the Church in every age looked upon it self as obliged to do nothing at all , but what their fore-Fathers did . For although they might know never so much what was done by them , if they did not judge themselves bound to observe unalterably what they did , this doth not hinder at all , but new customs and opinions might be introduced in the Church . And therefore I cannot but justly wonder , that any men of parts who professedly disown the vulgar wayes of establishing the Roman Church should think to satisfie themselves with Orall Tradition , and cry it up as so impregnable a thing . Because no age of the Church can be deceived in what the foregoing did and taught . Whereas a very little of that reason , which these men pretend to , might acquaint them , that the force of it doth not lye in their capacity to know what was done by others , but in their obligation not to vary at all from it . For the main weight of the Argument lyes here , That nothing hath been changed in the Faith or Practise of the Church , which being the thing to be proved , the bare knowledge of what was believed or practised , is not sufficient to prove it ; for men may know very well what others believe and do , and yet may believe and do quite contrary themselves . But the only thing to be proved in this case is , That every age of the Church , and all persons in it looked upon themselves as obliged , not to vary in any thing from the Doctrine or practise of the precedent age . And I pray let me know by what demonstrative medium can this be proved ; for no less then demonstrations are spoken of by the magnifiers of this way ; although there be so little evidence in it , that it cannot work but upon a very weak understanding . Must that obligation to observe all which the precedent age believed or practised be proved by reason , particular testimony , or universal tradition ? And let the extollers of this way take their choice , so they will undertake to bring evidence equal to the weight which depends upon it . It is hard to conceive what reason should inforce it , but such as proves the impossibility of the contrary : And they have understandings of another mould from others , who can conceive it impossible that men should not think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their Predecessours did . If particular testimonies could be produced , they signifie no more , then their own judgements ; but we are enquiring for the judgement of every age of the Church , and the persons who live in it . And to prove an universal tradition of this obligation is the most difficult task of all , for it depends upon the truth of that which is to be proved by it . For if they did not think themselves obliged to believe and do what their Predecessours did , they could not think themselves bound to deliver such an obligation to their posterity to do it . And therefore you must first prove the obligation it self , before you can prove the universal tradition of it . For although one age may deliver it , yet you cannot be assured that a former age did it to them ; unless you can prove , the same sense of this obligation ran through them all . But this is so far from being an universal tradition , that the present age from which it begins was never agreed in it , as I have shewed already . 3. It is to no purpose to prove the impossibility of motion , when I see men move : no more is it to prove that no age of the Church could vary from the foregoing , when we can evidently prove that they have done it . And therefore this Argument is intended only to catch easie minds that care not for a search into the History of the several ages of the Church , but had rather sit down with a superficial subtilty ▪ than spend time in further enquiries . For this Argument proceeds just as if men should prove the world eternal by this medium ; The present age sees no alteration in it , and they could not be deceived in what their fore Fathers believed , nor they in theirs , and so on in infinitum ; for no men did ever see the world made : and therefore it was never made , and so eternal . But if we go about to prove by reason the production of the world , or by Scripture to shew that it was once made , then this oral tradition is spoiled . And so it is in the present case ; These men attempt to prove there could never be any alteration in the Faith or practise of the Church since Christs time ; for the present age delivers what it had from the precedent , and so up till the first institution of the Church : but in the mean time , if we can evidently prove that there have been such alterations in the Church , then it is to no purpose to prove that impossible which we see actually done . And this appears , not only because the Scripture supposes a degeneracy in the Christian Church , which could never be , if every age of the Church did infallibly believe and practise as the precedent up to Christs time did ; but because we can produce clear evidence , that some things are delivered by the present Church which must be brought in by some age since the time of Christ. For which I shall refer you to what I have said already concerning Communion in one kind , Invocation of Saints , and Worship of Images . In all which I have proved evidently , that they were not in use in some ages of the Christian Church ; and it is as evident that these are delivered by the present Church ; and therefore this principle must needs be false . For by these things it appears , that one age of the Church may differ in practise or opinion from another , and therefore this oral tradition cannot be infallible . And yet this is the only way whereby a prescription may be allowed , for this offers to give a sufficient title if it could be made good . But bare possession in matters of Religion is a most sensless plea ; and which would justifie Heathenism and Mahumetism as well as your Church . 2. It were worth knowing , What you mean by full and quiet possession of your Faith , Religion , and Church , which you say you were in . Either you mean , that you did believe the Doctrines of your Church your selves , or that we were bound to believe them too . If you mean only the former , you are in as full possession of them as ever , for I suppose all in your Church do believe them ; if you intend by this possession , that we ought to believe them because you did , this is a prescription indeed , but without any ground or reason . For even Tertullian whom you cite for prescribing against Hereticks , sayes , That nothing can be prescribed against truth , Non spatium temporum , non patrocinia personarum , non privilegium regionum . Neither length of time , nor authority of persons , nor priviledge of places . If you say , It was truth you were in possession of , that is the thing to be proved ; and if you can make that appear we will not disturb your possession at all . But you must be sure to prove it by something else besides your quiet and full possession ; unless you can prove it impossible that you should be possessed of falshoods ; But we have evidently shewn the contrary already . And if we examine a little further what this possession is , we shall see what an excellent right it gives you to prescribe by . You were possessed of your Faith , Religion , and Church , i. e. you did believe the Roman Church Infallible , you believed the Popes Supremacy , Transubstantiation , Purgatory , &c. And what then ? Do you not believe them still ? Yes doubtless . But , What is your quarrel with us then ? Do we hinder you the Possession of them ? No , but we ought to believe them too . But , Why so ? because you are in possession of them . What , Must we then believe whatever you do , whether it be true or false ? If this be the meaning of your Possession , you ought well to prove it , or else we shall call it Vsurpation . For it is a most ridiculous thing for you to talk of Possession , when the Question is , Whether there be any such things in the world or no , as those you say you are possessed of ? We deny your Churches Infallibility , the Popes Supremacy , Purgatory , &c. You must first prove there are such things in rerum naturâ , as Purgatory , Transubstantiation , &c. before you can say , you are possessed of them : You must convince us , that your Church is Infallible , and that the Pope was made Head of the Church by Christ , and then we will grant you are in full possession of them , but not before . So that you see , the Question is not concerning the manner of Possession , but of the things themselves , which you call your Faith , Religion , and Church , in opposition to ours ; and therefore it is impossible to plead Prescription , where there never was any Possession at all . And therefore you clearly mistake when you call us , The Aggressors , for you are plainly the Imposers in this case , and quarrel with us for not believing what you would have us ; and therefore you are bound to prove , and not we . So that there is nothing you could challenge any Possession of in the Church of England , but some Authority which the Pope had , which you elsewhere confess he might he deprived of , as he was in King Henry 's time ; and which we offer to prove that he was not Possessor bonae fidei of , but that he came to it by fraud and violence , and was deprived of it by a legal Power . Thus I have fully examined your Argument from Possession , because it presents us with something which had not been discussed before . But having taken a view of all that remains , I find that it consists of a bare Repetition of the Controversies before discussed , especially concerning the certainty and grounds of Faith , the Infallibility of the Church , and General Councils , and the Authority of the Roman Church ; So that if you had not an excellent faculty of saying most , where there is least occasion , I should wonder at your design in spending several Chapters in giving the same things , under other words . Unless it were an ambition of answering every clause in his Lordships Book , which carried you to it , though you only gave over and over what you had said in many places before . Which is a piece of vanity I neither envy you for , nor shall I strive to imitate you in ; having made it my endeavour to lay those grounds in the handling each Controversie , that there should not need any such fruitless repetitions as you here give us . His Lordship , though he complains much of it , was forced by his Adversaries importunity to return the same Answers in effect , which had been given before by him in the proper places ; but , whosoever compares what his Lordship saith , with what you pretend to answer , will find no necessity at all of my undergoing the same tedious and wearisome task . Instead therefore of a particular Answer , I shall give only some general strictures on what remains of these subjects , where there is any appearance of difficulty ; and conclude all with the examination of your Defence of Purgatory , that being a subject which hath not yet come under our enquiry . Your main business is to perswade us , that yours is the only saving Faith ; which you prove by this , The saving Faith is but one , yours is confessed by us to be a saving Faith still ; therefore yours is the only saving Faith. But if you had considered on what that confession depends , you could have made no Argument at all of it ; for , when we say , that your Faith is saving , we mean no more but this , that you have so much of the common truths of Christianity among you , that there is a possibility for men to be saved in your Church ; but , Doth this imply , that yours is a saving Faith , in that sense wherein it is said , There is but one saving Faith ? for in that Proposition it is understood of all those common fundamental Truths , which the Christian Church of all ages hath been agreed in And the saying , There is but one saving Faith , is of the same sense with the saying , There is but one true Religion in the world . The substance of what you would inferr from the saying of Athanasius his Creed , Which if a man keeps whole and inviolate ( as you would have it ) is this , That a man is equally bound to believe every Article of Faith. But you cannot mean , that it is simply necessary to do it , for that you disclaim elsewhere , by your distinction of things necessary from the matter and the formal reason of Faith ; and therefore it can only be meant of such to whom those objects of Faith are sufficiently proposed , and so far we acknowledge it too , that it is necessary to Salvation for every man to believe that which he is convinced to be an object of Faith. For otherwise such persons must call in question God's Veracity ; but if you would hence make it necessary to believe all that your Church proposes for matter of Faith , you must prove , that whatever your Church delivers , is as infallibly true , as if God himself spake ; and when you can perswade us of this , we shall believe whatever is propounded by her . When you say , We cannot believe all Articles of Faith on the same formal reason , because we deny the Churches Infallibility , it is apparent , that you make the Churches testimony the formal reason of Faith ; and that you are bound to prove the Church absolutely Infallible , before we can believe any thing on her account . Neither doth it follow , Because we deny that , therefore we pick and chuse our Faith ; for we believe all without reservation , which you , or any man can convince us was ever revealed by God. As to what at large occurrs here again , about the Infallibility of Councils ; there is nothing but what hath been sufficiently answered on that subject ; and so reserving the Question of Purgatory , which is here brought in by his Lordship , as a further Instance of the errours of General Councils ; I pass on to the two last Chapters : In which we meet again with the objected inconveniencies , from questioning the Infallibility of the Church and Councils , That then Faith would be uncertain , and private persons might judge of Councils , and if they may erre in one , they may erre in all ; as fresh as if they had never been heard of before . Only the Argument from Rom. 10.15 . That because none can preach except they be sent , therefore the present Church is Infallible , is both new and excellent , on which account I let it pass . If your Church , with all her Infallibility , can do no more , as you confess , in reference to Heresies , but only secure the faithful members of the Church , who have due care of themselves , and perform their duty well towards their lawful Pastors ; you have little cause to boast of the great priviledge of it , and as little reason to contend for the necessity of it , since so much is done without it , and on surer grounds by the Scriptures , and the use of other means which fall short of Infallibility . In the beginning of your last Chapter , we have a large dispute concerning S. Cyprian's meaning , in his 45. Epistle to Cornelius , where he speaks of the root and matrix of the Catholick Church , viz. Whether by that , the Roman Church be understood or no ? His Lordship saith , Not , and gives many reasons for it ; you maintain the contrary ; but the business may be soon decided upon a true state of the occasion of writing that Epistle . Which in short was this ; It seems , Letters had been sent in the name of Polycarp Bishop of the Colony of Adrumyttium , directed to Cornelius at Rome ; but Cyprian and Liberalis coming thither , and acquainting the Clergy there with the resolution of the African Bishops to suspend communion either with Cornelius , or Novatianus , till the return of Caldonius and Fortunatus , who were sent on purpose to give an account of the proceedings there , the Clergy of Adrumyttium upon this writing to Rome , direct their Letters not to Cornelius , but to the Roman Clergy . Which Cornelius ( being it seems informed by some , as though it were done by S. Cyprian's Counsel ) takes offence at , and writes to Cyprian about it . Who gives him in this Epistle the account of it , that it was only done , that there might be no dissent among themselves upon this difference at Rome , and that they only suspended their sentence till the return of Caldonius and Fortunatus , who might either bring them word that all was composed at Rome , or else satisfie them , Who was the lawfully ordained Bishop . And therefore , as soon as they understood that Cornelius was the lawful Bishop , they unanimously declare for him , and order all Letters to be sent to him , and that his communion should be embraced . This is the substance of that Epistle . But , it seems Cornelius was moved at S. Cyprian's suspending himself , as though it were done out of dis-favour to him ; which Cyprian to clear himself of , tells him , That his design was only to preserve the Vnity of the Catholick Church . For , saith he , we gave this advice to all those , who the mean time had occasion to sail to Rome , ut Ecclesiae Catholicae radicem & matricem agnoscerent & tenerent ; that they would acknowledge and hold to the root and matrix of the Catholick Church , by which his Lordship understands , the Vnity of the Church Catholick , you , the particular Church of Rome . But it is apparent , the meaning of this Counsel was , to prevent their participation in the Schism . So that if , upon their coming to Rome , the Schismatical party was evidently known from the other ( which they might , I grant , soon understand there , by the circumstances of affairs ) they should joyn themselves with that part which preserved the Vnity of the Catholick Church . Which I take to be the true meaning of S. Cyprian . But in case the matter should prove disputable at Rome , and the matter be referred to other Churches , then by virtue of this advice , they were bound to suspend their communion with either party , till the Catholick Church had declared it self . By this account of the business , all your Arguments come to nothing : for they only prove that which I grant , viz. That in case it appeared at Rome , Which was the Catholick party , they were to communicate with it : but this was not , because the Catholick party at Rome was the root and matrix of the Catholick Church ( for on that account the party of Novatianus might have been so too , if Novatianus had been lawful Bishop ) but their holding to the root of the Catholick Church , would oblige them to communicate only with that part , which did preserve the Vnity of it . For the Controversie now at Rome was between two parties both challenging an equal right ; and therefore if S. Cyprian had only advised them to communicate with the Roman Church , because that was the root and matrix of the Catholick Church , his advice had signified nothing ; for the Question was not between the Church of Rome , and other Churches , in which case it might have been pertinent to have said , they should adhere to the Church of Rome , because that was the root , &c. But when the difference was at Rome it self between two Bishops there , this reason had been wholly impertinent ; for the only reason proper in this case , must be such as must discriminate the one party from the other , which this could not do , because it was equally challenged by them both . And had belonged to one as well as the other , in case Novatianus had proved the lawful Bishop , and not Cornelius . And therefore the sense of Cyprian's words must be such as might give direction , which party to joyn with at Rome , on which account they cannot import any priviledge of the Church of Rome over other Churches , but only contain this advice , that they should hold to the Vnity of the Catholick Church , and communicate only with that party which did it . This reason is so clear and evident to me , that this place cannot be understood of any priviledge of the Church of Rome , above other Churches , that if there were nothing else to induce me to believe it , this were so pregnant , that I could not resist the force of it . But besides this , his Lordship proves that elsewhere S. Cyprian speaks in his own person with other Catholick Bishops , nos qui Ecclesiae unius caput & radicem tenemus , we who hold the head and root of one Church , by which it appears , he could not make the Church of Rome the root and matrix of the Catholick ; this being understood of the Vnity and Society of the Catholick Church , without relation to the Church of Rome : and S. Cyprian writes to Cornelius , that they had sent Caldonius and Fortunatus to reduce the Church of Rome to the Vnity and Communion of the Catholick Church ; and because no particular Church can be the root of the Catholick , and if any were , Jerusalem might more pretend to it than Rome , and because S. Cyprian and his Brethren durst not have suspended their communion at all , if they had looked on the Church of Rome as the root and matrix of the Catholick , as Baronius confesses they did , all which things are largely insisted on by his Lordship , and do all confirm , that hereby was not meant any Authority or Priviledge of the Church of Rome above other Apostolical Churches , which in respect of the lesser Churches which came from them , are called Matrices Ecclesiae , by Tertullian and others . But you are still so very unreasonable , that though no more be said of the Church of Rome , than might be said of any other Apostolical Church , yet because it is said of the Church of Rome , it must import some huge Authority , which if it had been said of any other , would have been interpreted by your selves into nothing : For so do you deal with us here ; for , because it is said , that they who joyned with Cornelius , did preserve the Unity of the Catholick Church , therefore it must needs be understood , that the Roman Church is the root of the Catholick . But he must have a very mean understanding , that can be swayed by such trifles as these are : For , Was there not a Catholick and Schismatical party then at Rome ? and if they who joyned with Novatianus , did separate from the Catholick Church , then they who were in communion with Cornelius , must preserve the Vnity of it . And , Would not this Argment as well prove the Catholick party at Carthage to be the root and matrix of the Catholick Church , as well as at Rome ? But such kind of things must they deal with , who are resolved to maintain a cause , and yet are destitute of better means to do it with . So that I cannot find any thing in all your Answer , but what would equally hold for any other Church at that time , which was so divided as Rome was ; considering the great care that then was used to preserve the Vnity of the Catholick Church . And what particularly S. Cyprian's apprehension was concerning the Nature and Vnity of the Catholick Church , we have at large discoursed already , to which place we referr the Reader , if he desires any further satisfaction . Your whole N. 5. depends on personal matters concerning the satisfaction of the Lady's conscience ; but if you would thence inferr , That she did well to desert the Protestant Communion ; you must prove that it can be no sin to follow the dictates of an erroneous conscience . For such , we say , it was in her , and , you denying it , all this discourse signifies nothing , but depends on the truth of the matters in controversie between us . But you most notoriously impose on his Lordship , when , because he asserts the possibility of Salvation of some in your Church , you would make him say , That it is no sin to joyn with your Church : You might as well say , Because he hopes some who have committed Adultery may be saved , therefore it is no sin to commit Adultery . So that while you are charging him falsly for allowing dissimulation , you do that which is more , in saying that which you cannot but know to be a great untruth . If our Religion be not the same with yours , as you eagerly contend it is not , let it suffice to tell you , that our Religion is Christianity , let yours be what it will. And if it please you better , to have a name wholly distinct from us , yours shall be called the Roman Religion , and ours the Christian. If you judge us of another Religion from yours , because we do not believe all that you do , we may judge you to have a different Religion from the Christian , because you impose more by your own confession to be believed as necessary in order to Salvation , than ever Christ or the Apostles did . And certainly the main of any Religion consists in those things which are necessary to be believed in it , in order to eternal happiness . In your following discourse , you are so far from giving us any hopes of peace with your Church , that you plainly give us the reason , why it is vain to expect or desire it ; which is , that if your Church should recede from any thing , it would appear she had erred , and if that appears , farewell Infallibility ; and then if that be once gone , you think all is gone . And while you maintain it , we are so far from hoping any peace with you , that the Peace of Christendom may still be joyned in the Dutchmans Sign with the quadrature of the circle , and the Philosophers Stone for the sign of the three hopelesse things . How far we are bound to submit to General Councils , hath been so fully cleared already , that I need not go about here to vindicate his Lordships Opinion from falsity or contradiction ; both which you unreasonably charge it with , and that still from no wiser a ground , than not being able to distinguish between the submission of Obedience and Faith. For his Lordship saith , It may be our duty not to oppose General Councils in case they erre , and yet it may be no pride not to believe known and gross errours of General Councils ; and I pray , What shadow of a contradiction is here ? And if it be pride in us not to believe gross errours imposed on us , Is it not much more intolerable in them who offer to impose them ? What Authority the Pope hath either to order or confirm Councils ; it is not here a place to enter upon again , since it hath been so largely discoursed of in so many places . But you force me , though not to the repetition of matter , yet to the repeating my saying that I will not , oftener than I should , but only to shew , how little you deserve any further answer . There is nothing now remaining to the end of your Book , which hath not been over and over , even in these last Chapters , but only a long discourse touching Succession , which you shew your self , of how little importance it is , when , after you have endeavoured at large to prove the necessity of personal Succession , you grant , That it is not sufficient without succession of Doctrine too : And on that account you deny the Greek Church to have a true Succession . And in vindication of Stapleton , you say , All the Succession which he and you contend for , is a Succession of Pastors , which hold entire both the Vnity and the Faith of the Church . So that it comes to this at last , that you are bound to prove a continual Succession of all that which you call the Faith of your Church in every age from the Apostles times ; if you would have us believe that Doctrine , or own your Church for the true Church of Christ. And therefore I conclude these general Answers with his Lordships words ; If A. C. T. C. or any Jesuit can prove , that by a visible continued Succession from Christ or his Apostles to this day , either Transubstantiation in the Eucharist , or the Eucharist in one kind , or Purgatory , or Worship of Images , or the Intention of the Priest of necessity in Baptism , or the Power of the Pope over a General Council , or his Infallibility with or without it , or his Power to depose Princes , or the publick Prayers of the Church in an unknown tongue , with divers other points , have been so taught ; I , for my part , will give the Cause . CHAP. VI. The Sense of the Fathers concerning Purgatory . The Advantage which comes to the Church of Rome , by the Doctrine of Purgatory , thence the boldness of our Adversaries in contending for it . The Sense of the Roman Church concerning Purgatory , explained . The Controversie between the Greek and Latin Church concerning it . The Difference in the Church of Rome about Purgatory . Some general Considerations about the Sense of the Fathers , as to its being an Article of Faith. The Doubtfulness and Vncertainty of the Fathers Judgments in this particular , manifested by S. Austin the first who seemed to assert a Purgation before the day of Judgement . Prayer for the Dead used in the Ancient Church , doth not inferr Purgatory . The Primate of Armagh vindicated from our Adversaries Calumnies . The general Intention of the Church distinguished from the private Opinions of particular persons . The Prayers of the Church respected the day of Judgement . The Testimonies of the Fathers in behalf of Purgatory , examined ; particularly of the pretended Dionysius , Tertullian , S. Cyprian , Origen , S. Ambrose , S. Hierom , S. Basil , Nazianzen , Lactantius , Hilary , Gregory Nyssen , &c. And not one of them asserts the Purgatory of the Church of Rome . S. Austin doth not contradict himself about it . The Doctrine of Purgatory no elder than Gregory 1. and built on Cred●lity and Superstition . The Churches Infallibility made at last the Foundation of the belief of Purgatory . The Falsity of that Principle : and the whole concluded . THese general Answers being dispatched , there remains only now this Question concerning Purgatory to be discussed . Which being the great Diana of your Church , no wonder you are so much displeased at his Lordship for speaking against it ; for by that means your craft is in danger to be set at nought . There being no Opinion in your Church which brings in a more constant revenue , by Masses for the dead , and Indulgencies , besides Casualties , and Deodands , by dying persons , or their friends , in hopes of a speedier release out of the pains of Purgatory . So that if this Opinion were once out of Countenance in the world , you would lose one of the best Arts you have of upholding the Grandeur of your Church . For then farewel Indulgences , and years of Jubilee ; farewel all those rich Donations which are given by those at their death , who hope by that means to get the sooner out of the Suburbs of Hell , to a place of rest and happiness . For , What Engine could possibly be better contrived to extort the largest gifts from those whose riches were as great as their sins , than to perswade them , that by that means they would be sooner delivered out of the Flames of Purgatory , and need not doubt but they should come to Heaven at last ? And , Would not they be accounted great Fools , that would not live as they pleased in this world , as long as they could buy themselves out of the pains of another ? And by this means your Church hath not only eaten , but grown fat , by the sins of the people ; it being truly observed by Spalatensis , That the Doctrine of Purgatory hath been that which hath most inriched the Church of Rome ; which he gives as the reason of the most zealous contending for that Doctrine among those of your party , who find so much advantage by it . And we might easily believe there was something extraordinary in it , when you tell us ; It is therefore firmly to be believed by all Catholicks , that there is a Purgatory ; yea , we are as much bound to believe it , as we are bound to believe ( for Instance ) the Trinity or Incarnation it self : because , since it is defined by the Church , we cannot lawfully , or without sin and peril of damnation deny or question this doctrine . We had need then look to our selves , who look on this Doctrine as a meer figment , that hath no foundation at all either in Scripture , Reason , or Tradition of the Primitive Church ; but much more had you need to look to your selves , who dare with so much confidence obtrude so destructive a Doctine to a Christian life , without any evidence of the truth of it , to be believed as much as the Trinity or Incarnation it self ; which expressions take them in the mildest sense you can give them , carry a most insufferable boldness with them . But these are not all the bold words which you utter on this Subject ; for you say elsewhere , That Bellarmin doth not more boldly , than truly affirm , yea evidently prove , that all the Fathers , both Greek and Latin , did constantly teach Purgatory from the very Apostles times , and consequently that it must be held for an Apostolical Tradition , or nothing can be . So then , if confidence would carry it , we must not only tremble at the fears of Purgatory ; but we must firmly believe it as an Article of Faith , and as a most undoubted Apostolical Tradition . But before we can digest these things , we must see a little more ground for them , than as yet we do ; and therefore you must be content to hear our reasons , Why we neither look on it as a matter of Faith or Apostolical tradition ; in order to which nothing is more necessary , then to enquire what you mean by Purgatory . For as long as you can shelter your selves under General words , you think you are safe enough ; but when we once bring you to a fuller explication of your meaning , Purgatory it self is not half so evident as those impostures are whereby you would maintain it . But for our clear understanding this Controversie , we must find out what your Doctrine is concerning it ; for , as confident as you are of it , there are not a few among you who are afraid to declare what you mean by it , lest by that means the world should see how far it is from having foundation either in Scripture or Antiquity . We are therefore told by some either are ashamed of the Doctrine it self , or loth to betray their cause ( who by declaring themselves ) that your Church requires no more then to believe that there is a Purgatory , for which they avouch the Council of Trent , which only defines That the sound Doctrine concerning Purgatory should be taught . This was indeed necessary to be said by such who do not at all believe the Roman Doctrine concerning it , what ever they pretend ; but rather agree with the Greek Church about the middle state of souls . But although the Council of Trent did not expresly define what they meant by Purgatory ; yet the sense of the Council concerning it , is easie to be gathered from the comparing of places together in it . For the Council of Trent in the last Session when it passed the decree of Purgatory referrs us to two things , by which we may fully understand the meaning of it ; For in the Preface to the Decree , it saith , That the Catholick Church had , in this and former Oecumenical Councils , taught that there was a Purgatory ; by which we may understand , What this Purgatory is , which was now decreed , and you say , we are bound to believe it as an Article of Faith. Now in all the former Decrees and Anathematisms of the Council , there is no place which seems to concern the Doctrine of Purgatory , so much as the thirtieth Anathema of the sixth Session in these words , Si quis ita reatum poenae aeternae deleri dixerit ; ut nullus remaneat reatus poenae temporalis exsolvendae vel in hoc seculo vel in futuro in Purgatorio , antequam ad regna coelorum aditus patere possit ; Anathema sit . If any one shall affirm that the guilt of eternal punishment is so forgiven , as that there remains no guilt of temporal punishment to be paid , either in this life , or hereafter in Purgatory ; before there can be any entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven ; let them be Anathema . From whence it evidently follows , that the Doctrine of Purgatory as it is taught by the Council of Trent doth depend upon this principle , That there is a guilt of temporal punishment remaining after the sin is pardoned , which temporal punishment is to be satisfied for , either in this life , or in Purgatory . So that all those who are in Purgatory are there on that account , that they might satisfie the justice of God for the temporal punishment of sin . For the guilt of mortal sin being remitted by the merits of Christ , the punishment is supposed still to remain , which being exchanged from eternal to temporal by the keyes of the Church , this punishment remains to be satisfied for , in the pains of Purgatory . But this punishment being temporal , the possibility of a release from them is necessarily supposed before the day of judgement ; for the Council of Trent in the Decree of Purgatory , declares that the souls there detained are relieved by the prayers of the Faithful , and especially by the sacrifice of the Altar . Which , in the 22 Session , it saith , is offer'd pro defunctis in Christo nondum ad plenum purgatis , for the departed in Christ not yet fully purg'd . So that the satisfaction of the debt of temporal punishment which remains when the sin is pardoned , and the translation of souls from thence to Heaven by the prayers of the living and the sacrifice of the Mass , are the main Foundations of the Doctrine of your Church concerning Purgatory . And this will further appear by the state of the Controversie between the Greek and Latin Church upon this Subject . For the main thing which the Greeks objected against the Latins , was this temporary punishment for sin , in a future state : For they say , in their Apology delivered into the Council of Basil , We own no Purgatory fire , nor any temporary punishment by fire which shall have an end ; for we received no such thing by tradition , nor doth the Eastern Church confess it . And afterwards ; We deny that any souls pass through this fire to eternal fire ; for in saying so , we should weaken the consent of the whole Church : and it is to be fear'd , if we should assert such a temporary fire , that people would be apt to believe that all the fire in the other life were only temporary ; by which means they would fall into such neglect and carelesness , that they would make the more fuel for eternal fire . And therefore they conclude , That they neither have nor shall assert any such Purgatory fire . But you would seem to perswade us , That the Contest between the Greeks and Latins was only , whether the fire of Purgatory were material or no ; For you say , The Greeks in the Council of Florence never doubted in the least measure , nor denyed Purgatory it self , but only question'd , Whether the fire were material or metaphorical . But if you speak of those Greeks , who held to what was generally received in the Greek Church ; you are very much deceived therein , for the sense of the Greek Church was fully delivered by them in this Apology , penned , as is supposed , by Marcus Ephesius but the year before at the Council of Basil ; and herein they not only dispute against the fire , but against any such state of purgation after this life , by the undergoing any temporary punishment for sin . For thus that Apology ends ; For these causes the Doctrine proposed of a Purgatory fire is to be cast out of the Church , as that which tends to slacken the endeavours of the diligent , and which hinders them from doing their utmost to purge themselves in this life , since another purgation is expected after it . Is not this plain enough for their denyal of any state of purgation after this life , by which men might satisfie for the temporary punishment of sin , and be translated out of that state to the Kingdom of Heaven ? And thence , although in the Bull of Vnion published by Eugenius 4. at the concluding the Florentine Council , no more was concluded , than that those penitents who departed this life , before they had satisfied for their former sins by worthy fruits of pennance , should have their souls purged after death , poenis purgatoriis , with purgatory punishments , yet Marcus Eugenicus utterly refused to subscribe it thus ; which certainly he would never have done if all the Controversie had been only , Whether the fire were real or metaphorical . And the whole Greek Church utterly refused those terms of union , and therefore Alphonsus à Castro recounts the denying Purgatory among the errours of the Greeks . The Greeks indeed do not believe that any souls enjoy the beatifical Vision before the day of Judgement , and on that account they allow of prayer for the dead , notwith any respect to a deliverance of souls out of purgatory , but to the participation of their happiness at the great Day . But there is a great deal of difference between this Opinion , and that of your Church ; for they believe all souls of believers to be in expectation of the final Judgement but without any temporary punishment for sin , or any release from that punishment by the prayers of the living , which your Church asserts ; and is the proper state of the Question concerning Purgatory . Which is not , Whether there be any middle state wherein the souls of the Faithful may continue in expectation of the final consummation of their happiness at the great day ; nor , Whether it be lawful in that sense for the Church on earth to pray for departed souls in order to their final justification at the day of Judgment , or in St. Pauls language , That God would have mercy on them in that day ; but , Whether there be such a state , wherein the souls of men undergo a temporary punishment for sin , the guilt being pardoned , out of which they may be released by the prayers of the living , and translated from Purgatory to the Kingdom of Heaven , before the day of Resurrection . This is the true state of the Question between us and the Church of Rome ; and now we come to examine , Whether your Doctrine concerning Purgatory be either an Article of Faith , or Apostolical Tradition ; which how confidently so ever you may assert , we shall find your confidence built on very little reason . Which we may the easier believe , since there are so many among your selves , who do not think themselves obliged to own this Doctrine of your Church concerning Purgatory . Nay , we have not only the confession of several of your party , that your Doctrine of Purgatory was not known in the Primitive Church , as Alphonsus à Castro , Roffensis , Polydore , &c. and of others , that it cannot be sufficiently proved from Scripture , as Petrus â Soto , Perionius , Bulenger , whose testimonies are produced by others ; but there are some persons of note among you , who have expresly denied the Doctrine it self , and confuted the pretended reasons which are given for it . Petrus Picherellus , saith , There is no fuel to be found in Scripture , either to kindle or maintain the fire of Purgatory ; and which afterwards he largely disproves in his excellent Discourse de Missâ . Father Barns acknowledges , That the punishment of souls in Purgatory , is a thing which lyes meerly in humane opinion , which cannot be firmly deduced from Scriptures , Fathers , or Councils . Yea , ( saith he , with submission to better judgements ) the opposite opinion seems more agreeable to them . But later then these , you cannot but know , Who it is here at home , that hath not only pull'd down the superstructure , but raced the very Foundations of your Doctrine of Purgatory in his discourse de medio Animarum statu : wherein he professedly disproves the Doctrine of your Church ( though he is loath to own it to be so ) in this particular , and shews at large , that it hath no foundation at all , either in Scripture , Antiquity , or Reason . But if your Doctrine of Purgatory be to be believed as an Article of Faith , and Apostolical Tradition if any be ; How come these differences among your selves about it ? How comes that Authour not to be answered , and his reasons satisfied ? But if you be not agreed among your selves , What this Article of Faith is , you are most unreasonable men , to tell us , We are as much bound to believe it as the Trinity , or Incarnation . We ask you , What it is we are bound to believe ? You tell us , according to the sense of your Church , The punishment of souls in a future state , out of which they may be delivered by the prayers of the Faithful , and translated into the Kingdom of Heaven ; Another he denies all this , and saith , We are in effect only bound to believe , That faithful souls do not enjoy their full happiness till the resurrection , and that there is no deliverance at all out of any state in which mens souls are after death , till the day of Judgement ; and that the prayers of the Church , only respect that Day ; but that the former Doctrine is so far from being an Article of Faith , that it is contrary to Scripture , Antiquity , and Reason . If such a state of expectation wherein faithful souls are at rest ( but according to different degrees of grace which they had at their departure hence , and look for the day of Resurrection , when they shall have a perfect consummation of their bliss ) were all the Purgatory which your Church asserted , the breach might be far nearer closing as to this Article , than now it is . For although we find some particular persons ready to give a fair and tolerable sense of your Doctrine herein ; yet we cannot be ignorant , that the General apprehension and sense of your Church is directly contrary ; and those persons who have discovered the freedom of their judgements as to this and other particulars , know how much it concerns them to keep a due distance from Rome , if they would preserve the freedom of their persons . But you are not one of those that hath cause for any such fears : for what ever Bellarmin saith , you are ready to swear to it , and accordingly set your self to the defence of Purgatory upon his principles ; which are far more suitable to the Doctrine of your Church , than to Scripture or Antiquity . But because this Controversie is not managed between his Lordship and you about the sense of the Scripture , but the Fathers concerning it ; I must therefore enquire , Whether your Doctrine of Purgatory were ever owned by the Fathers as an Article of Faith or Apostolical Tradition . And that I may the more fully clear it , before I come to examine your proofs for it , I shall lay down some general considerations . 1. Nothing ought to be looked on as an Article of Faith among the Fathers , but what they declare , that they believe on the account of Divine Revelation . As to all other things which they assert , we may look on them as private opinions of particular persons , but not as such things which were received as Articles of Faith. For whatsoever is received as such , it must be wholly on the account of Gods revealing it , who only can oblige us to believe with that assent which is required to Faith. And if it be so as to all other things , much more certainly as to the future state of souls , of which we can know nothing certainly without Divine Revelation . For since the remission of sins , and the happiness of the future life , depend upon the goodness and mercy of God , we can define nothing as to these things any further then God hath declared them . If God hath declared that remission of sins lyes in the taking away the obligation to punishment , it will be a contradiction to say , That he pardons those whom he exacts the punishment of sin from , purely to satisfie his justice ; if he hath declared , that the souls of the faithful are in joy and felicity assoon as they are delivered out of this sinful world , it is impossible they should undergo unsufferable pains , though not to eternity . I dispute not now , Whether he hath so revealed these things , but that it is impossible for any thing to be looked on as an Article of Faith , but what hath clear Divine Revelation for it . And therefore , although many testimonies of the Fathers might be produced one way or other , as to these things ; when they speak only their own fancies and imaginations , and not what God hath revealed , they cannot , all put together , make the opinion they assert to be an Article of Faith. Nothing is more apparent , then that the itching curiosity of humane nature to know more then God hath revealed , concerning the future state of souls , did betimes discover it self in the Church . But the strange diversity of these Imaginations were a sufficient evidence , that they speak not by any certain rule , but according to their different fancies ; and therefore that they did not deliver any Doctrine of Faith , but only their own private opinions . If you would therefore prove , that the Fathers did own Purgatory as an Article of Faith , you must not think it enough to prove , that one or two of the Fathers did speak something tending to it , but that all who had occasion to mention it , did speak of it as the Doctrine of the Church , and that which came from an immediate Divine Revelation . 2. There is no reason , That should be looked on as an Article of Faith , which , they who seemed to assert it most , did build on such places , which they acknowledged themselves to be very obscure . For since they deduced it from Scripture , it is apparent that they did not believe it on the account of any unwritten word , or Divine Revelation conveyed meerly by Tradition ; and since they confess the places to be very difficult , it is unreasonable to judge , that they looked on that as a matter of Faith , which they supposed was contained in them . As for instance , St. Austin in several places asserts , that all things necessary to be believed are clearly revealed in Scripture ; and withall he sayes , that the place 1 Cor. 3.15 . is very difficult and obscure , and that it is one of those places in St. Paul , which St. Peter saith are hard to be understood ; and therefore it is not conceivable that S. Austin should make any thing a matter of Faith , which he founds upon this place . And this is the great and almost only considerable Place , which he or the rest of the Fathers did insist on , as to the nature of that purgation which was to be in a future state . 3. That cannot be looked on as an Article of Faith to such persons , who express their own doubts concerning the truth of it . For whatever is owned as an Article of Faith by any person , is thereby acknowledged to be firmly believed by him . Now upon our enquiry into the Fathers we shall find , the first person who seemed to assert that any faithful souls passed through a fire of purgation before the day of judgement , was St. Austin : but he delivers his judgement with so much fear and hesitancy , that any one may easily see that he was far from making it any Article of Faith. We must consider then , that in St. Augustin's time , there were many , who though they denied Origen's opinion as to the Salvation at last of all persons ; yet were very willing to believe it , as to all those who died in the Communion of the Church , that though they passed through the flames of Hell for their sins , yet at last they should be saved ; and for this they mainly insisted on 1 Cor. 3.15 . where it is said , That some should be saved , but as by fire . Such , say they , build upon the foundation gold , silver , pretious stones , who to their Faith add good works : but they , hay , wood , and stubble , whose life is contrary to their Faith ; and yet these latter , they asserted should come to Heaven at last , but they must undergo the torments of Hell first . Against these St. Austin writes his book de fide & operibus , wherein he proves that such as live in sin shall be finally excluded the Kingdom of Heaven ; And when he comes to the interpretation of that place , he gives this account of it , That those who do so love Christ , as rather to part with all things for him than to lose him , but yet have too great a love to the things of the world , shall suffer grief and loss on that account . Sive ergo in hâc vitâ tantum homines ista patiuntur , sive etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam judicia subsequuntur ; non abhorret , quantum arbitror , à ratione veritatis iste intellectus hujus sententiae . Whether , saith he , men suffer these things in this life , or such judgements follow after it ; I suppose this sense of S. Paul 's meaning is not dissonant from truth . So far was he from being certain of it , that he puts in , quantum arbitror , as far as I suppose ; and yet he would not define , whether that loss which they were to suffer were only in this life or no. And , in his Enchiridion to Laurentius , where he disputes the very same matter , he saith , Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est ; & utrum ita sit quaeri potest , & aut inveniri aut latere , Nonnullos fideles per ignem quendam purgatorium , quanto magis minusve bona pereuntia dilexerunt , tanto tardius citiusve salvari . It is not incredible that such a thing should be after this life , and it may be enquired after whether it be found to be so or no , that some faithful souls pass through a purging fire , and are saved sooner or later according to the degree of their affection to worldly things . Will any man in his wits think that St. Austin spake this of any matter of Faith , or that was generally received in the Church as an Apostolical Tradition ? Did he ever speak so concerning the Trinity or the Incarnation of Christ which you parallel with Purgatory ? What would men have thought of him , if he had said of either of those Articles , It is not incredible they may be true , and it may be enquired into whether they be or no ? Whatever then St. Austins private opinion was , we see he delivers it modestly and doubtfully , not obtruding it as an Article of Faith , or Apostolical Tradition if any be . And the very same he repeats in his Answer to the first Question of Dulcitius ; so that this was all that ever he asserted as to this Controversie . What you offer to the contrary from other places of St. Austin shall be considered in its due place . 4. Where any of the Fathers build any Doctrine upon the sense of doubtful places of Scripture , we have no further reason to believe that Doctrine , then we have to believe that it is the meaning of those places . So that in this case the enquiry is taken off from the judgement of the Fathers , and fixed upon the sense of the Scriptures which they and we both rely upon . For since they pretend themselves to no greater evidence of the truth of the Doctrine then such places do afford : it is the greatest reason that the argument to perswade us be not the testimony of the Father , but the evidence of the place it self . Unless it be evident some other way , that there was an universal Tradition in the Church from the Apostles times concerning it , and that the only design of the Father was , to apply some particular place to it . But then such a Tradition must be cleared from something else , besides the sense of some ambiguous places of Scripture , and that Tradition manifested to be Vniversal both as to time and place . These things being premised , I now come particularly to examine the evidence you bring , That all the Fathers both Greek and Latin did constantly teach Purgatory from the Apostles times , and consequently that it must be held for an Apostolical Tradition or nothing can be . And as you follow Bellarmin in your way of proving it , so must I follow you ; and he divides his proofs you say into two ranks . First , Such who affirm prayer for the dead . 2. Such who in the successive ages of the Church did expresly affirm Purgatory . First , with those who affirm prayer for the dead ; Which ( you say ) doth necessarily infer Purgatory , whatever the Bishop vainly insinuates to the contrary . The Question then between us is , Whether that prayer for the dead which was used in the ancient Church , doth necessarily inferr that Purgatory was then acknowledged ? This you affirm ; for , say you , If there were no other place , or condition of being for departed souls , but either Heaven or Hell , surely it were a vain thing to pray for the dead ; especially to pray for the remission of their sins , or for their refreshment , ease , rest , relaxation of their pains , as Ancients most frequently do . From whence , you add , that Purgatory is so undenyably proved , that the Relator finding nothing himself sufficient to Answer , was forced to put us off to the late Primate of Armagh 's Answer to the Jesuits Challenge . Which , you say , You have perused , and find only there , that the Authour proves that which none of you deny , viz. That the prayers and commemorations used for the dead had reference to more souls than those in Purgatory . But , you attempt to prove , That the nature and kind of those prayers do imply that they were intended for other ends , than meerly that the body might be glorified as well as the soul , and to praise God for the final happy end of the deceased : Whereas that Answerer of the Jesuite would , you say , by his allegations insinuate to the Reader a conceit , that it was used only for those two reasons and no other ; Which , you say , you must needs avouch to be most loudly untrue , and so manifestly contrary to the Doctrine and practise of the Fathers as nothing can be more . A high charge against two most Reverend and learned Primates together : against the one , as not being able to Answer , and therefore turning it off to the other ; against the other , for publishing most loud untruths , instead of giving a true account of the grounds of the Churches practise . It seems , you thought it not honour enough to overcome one , unless you led the other in triumph also ; but you do neither of them , but only in your own fancy and imagination . And never had you less cause to give out such big words then here , unless it were to amuse the spectatours that they might not see how you fall before them . For it was not the least distrust of his sufficiency to Answer , which made his Lordship to put it oft to the Primate of Armagh , but because he was prevented in it by him , Who , ( as he truly saith ) had very learnedly and at large set down other reasons which the Ancients gave for prayer for the dead without any intention to free them from Purgatory . Which are not only different from , but inconsistent with , the belief of Purgatory ; for the clearing of which , and vindicating my Lord Primate from your calumnies rather then answers , it will be necessary to give a brief account of his Discourse on that subject . He tells us therefore at first , That we are here prudently to distinguish the Original institution of the Church , from the private opinions of particular Doctors , which waded further herein then the general intendment of the Church did give them warrant . Now he evidently proves that the memorials , oblations , and prayers made for the dead at the beginning had reference to such as rested from their labours , and not unto any souls which were thought to be tormented in that Vtopian Purgatory , whereof there was no news stirring in those dayes . This he gathers first by the practise of the ancient Christians laid down by the Authour of the Commentaries on Job , who saith , The memorials of the Saints were observed as a memorial of rest to the souls departed , and that they therein rejoyced for their refreshing . St. Cyprian saith , they offered Sacrifices for them , whom he acknowledgeth to have received of the Lord Palms and Crowns ; and in the Authour of the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy , the party deceased is described by him to have departed this life replenished with Divine joy , as now not fearing any change to worse , being come unto the end of all his labours , and publickly pronounced to be a happy man , and admitted into the society of the Saints ; and yet the Bishop prayes , that God would forgive him all his sins he had committed through humane infirmity , and bring him into the light and band of the living , into the bosoms of Abraham , Isaac , and Jacob , into the place from whence pain , and sorrow , and sighing flyeth . And Saint Chrysostom shews that the funeral Ordinances of the Church were appointed to admonish the living , that the parties deceased were in a state of joy and not of grief ; and therefore they sung at the Burial , Return my soul to thy rest , for the Lord hath dealt bountifully with thee . And this he proves likewise from the Ancient Liturgies , wherein prayers are made for all Saints , Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs , and others . And S. Ambrose , after he had said , That Valentinian and Gratian were both blessed , and enjoyed the pleasures of everlasting life ; and yet subjoyns his Orizons for them . Thus he prayes for Theodosius , of whom he had said , That he enjoyes everlasting light , and continual tranquillity : And so for his Brother Satyrus , when he had pronounced of him before , That he had entred into the Kingdom of Heaven . The same doth Gregory Nazianzen for his Brother Caesarius . Now , Is it possible you should think that Prayer for the Dead , as used in the the Ancient Church , doth necessarily inferr Purgatory ; when they who made these Prayers , did suppose the persons they made them for , to be at rest , and in joy , and in the Kingdom of Heaven ? And I hope that is a different state from that of Purgatory . Therefore you see , it is not barely proved , that some different accounts are given of Prayer for the Dead , but such as are exclusive of it , and those such as appear from the eldest times of the Church , when such Prayers were used . Now , having thus shewed , for whom these Prayers were made , he proceeds to shew , of what kinds they were , whereof , he saith , some were Eucharistical for the blessed estate of the party deceased ; others deprecatory , and petitory , that God would forgive him his sins , keep him from Hell , and place him in the Kingdom of Heaven : which , though at first well meant , were turned to an ill use afterwards , when these intercessions began once to be applied not only to the good , but evil livers also , unto whom by the first Institution they were never intended . And he at large proves by very many examples , that the primary Intention of the Church in her supplications for the Dead , was , That the whole man ( not the soul separated only ) might receive publick remission of sins , and a solemn acquittal in the judgement of that great Day , and so obtain both a full escape from all the consequences of sin , and a perfect consummation of bliss and happiness . And of this nature he shews afterwards were the Prayers of the Church used in Epiphanius his time , which Aërius was condemned for rejecting of ; and he plainly proves , that the Church of Rome comes nearer the Opinion of Aërius , than they would seem to do . For they agree with Aërius , in rejecting that kind of praying and offering for the Dead , which was used in the Church at that time ; which was for such as were believed to be in bliss . For , since the Romanists say , That without the supposition of Purgatory , Prayer for the Dead would be unprofitable , and at that time the souls they prayed for , are supposed to be already in bliss ; therefore they do as much condemn those Prayers for the Dead , which were then used , as Aërius did . And it is very strange , if the releasing of souls out of Purgatory , had been any ground then of praying for the Dead , that Epiphanius , among all his far-fetcht Reasons , should never assign that , which you think to be the only proper ground of such Prayers . Thus we see , what was the general Intention of the Church in those Prayers which were made for the Dead , and how far this was from inferring Purgatory . But besides this , there were several particular Opinions among the Ancient Fathers touching the place and condition of souls separated from their bodies : and according to the several apprehensions which they had thereof , they made different interpretations and applications of the Vse of praying for the Dead ; whose particular intentions and devotions in that kind , must of necessity therefore be distinguished from the general intention of the whole Church . Thus there were two Opinions much in vogue among many of the Fathers , viz. of souls being kept in secret receptacles till the day of resurrection , and the purging of them in the fire of conflagration at the day of judgement ; of which Opinion were not only S. Augustin , but Origen , Lactantius , S. Hilary . S. Ambrose , and others . Now according to these Opinions they interpreted the Vse of praying for the Dead . And thence S. Augustin saith , That the oblations and alms usually offered in the Church for all the Dead that received Baptism , were thanksgivings for such as were very good , propitiations for such as were not very bad ; but as for such as were very evil , although they were no helps of the Dead , yet were they some kind of consolations of the Living ; but this was only a private exposition of the Churches meaning in her Prayers , because it is not to be found in the writings of the former Fathers ; and , because it suiteth not well with the general practice of the Church , which it intendeth to interpret . For it is somewhat too harsh an interpretation , to imagine that one and the same act of praying , should be a petition for some , and for others only a thanksgiving . Some other private Opinions there were besides these , as that of Theophylact , That God did not alwaies cast grievous sinners into Hell , but that the Prayers of the Church might keep them from being cast into Hell ; another , That an augmentation of Glory might be procured for the Saints , and either a total deliverance , or a diminution of torment at least , obtained for the wicked ; to which S. Chrysostom and others incline . Besides , there were different Opinions concerning the benefit which the Dead received ; by the Prayers of the Living . For the Authour of the Questions and Answers in Justin Martyrs work 's , Gregory Nazianzen , Theodoret , Diodorus Tarsensis , and S. Hierom , all conclude that there is no release to the expected for the sins of those who were dead . But others supposed , the Dead might receive profit by the Prayers of the Living , either for be remission of their sins , or the ceasing of their punishment ; but they were not agreed as to the nature of the sins , which might be pardoned , or the manner of the benefit which they received , whether their punishment were only lessened , or at last extinguished . And Stephanus Gobarus in Photius , tells us , That though some held these things , yet the true sentence of the Church was , That none at all was freed from punishment . But , that still this was a Question in the Church , Whether the Dead received profit by the Prayers of the Living , that learned Authour more at large proves ; but my design is only to give a very brief extract of his discourse , that you may from thence see , how far , by the Intention of the Church in praying for the Dead , you are from gathering the necessary belief of Purgatory . And by this a full Answer is given to what you object concerning the practice of the Fathers , to pray for the soul , and not the body ; and that when we pray for them , they receive ease , comfort , and refreshment by our Prayers , and that they obtain pardon , and mercy , and deliverance from pain for them , and that by the help of our Prayers they are brought to eternal rest and happiness . But all this falls short of your purpose , unless you can prove that any of them either believed or prayed that any such ease and refreshment were obtained by the Prayers of the Living before the day of Resurrection . That they prayed , That God would have mercy upon them in that day , we deny not , which implies ease , comfort , refreshment , pardon , deliverance from pain , and eternal happiness ; but then all this referrs not to any purgatory-pains , which they had undergone before , but those eternal pains which their sins deserved , if God should deal in justice with them . We grant then , that supplications and intercessions were used in the Church for the Dead , but we say , They did respect by the intention of the Church the day of judgement , and Gods final justification of them by his sentence at that day . For the Scriptures ( as my Lord Primate truly saith ) every where do point out , that great day to us , as the day wherein mercy and forgiveness , rest and refreshing , joy and gladness , redemption and salvation , rewards and Crowns , shall be bestowed upon all Gods Children , 2 Tim. 1.16.18 . 1 Cor. 1.8 . Act. 3.19 . 2 Thes. 1.6 , 7. Phil. 2.19 . 1 Thes. 2.16 . 1 Pet. 1.5 . 1 Cor. 5.5 . Ephes. 4.30 . Luk. 21.28 2 Tim. 4.8 . Luk. 14.14 . From whence it is no improbable deduction , that even the souls of good men , do not enjoy their full and compleat felicity , till the great day : not that they either sleep or undergo any Purgatory pains ; but that they are at rest from their labours , and in a blessed condition , but still waiting with a solicitous expectation for the glorious Coming of Christ , that they may then receive the reward prepared for them before the beginning of the world . But , Whether those souls be in Heaven ( as it notes a place , and not a state ) whether the degrees of their happiness be proportionable ( till the great day ) to the degrees of grace , which they had when they left the world , are Questions of more curiosity , than necessity to be resolved . But , as long as the Scripture doth insist so much on the proceedings of the great day , both as to rewards and punishments , we do not condemn the practice of the Ancient Church in those prayers which did thus respect the day of Resurrection . If any of the Fathers had any particular Opinions concerning the state of the Dead , and of the benefit which came to them by the Prayers of the Living ; we are no more concerned to defend them , than you are to defend those whom you acknowledge to hold , that no souls did enjoy the beatifical vision before the day of judgement , against whom Bellarmin and others dispute at large . Since you therefore confess your selves that some of the greatest of the Fathers did for many ages hold erroneous Opinions crncerning the state of the Dead , With what reason can you press us with the Testimonies of those whom you refuse your selves ? And since they had so many different Opinions concerning the state of souls , it seems strange that none of them ( at least till S. Augustin's time ) should hit upon such a state of Purgation , whereby they might be freed from pains before the day of judgement . And yet we find not one of them , which did so much as dream of that Purgatory which you call the upper Region of Hell ; or of any punishment , which they who dyed in favour with God , should undergo between death and judgement , out of which they might be delivered by the Prayers of the Living . Many of them indeed supposed that souls were kept in secret receptacles ; but they were far from asserting that they underwent at all any pains equal to the damned , much less that any souls were translated thence to glory upon the intercessions made for them ; others supposed that the souls of all good men were at last to pass thorow the fire of conflagration at the day of judgement ; others , that the souls of wicked men might either escape , or have their torments mitigated ; but all this while your Purgatory was unthought of , and was not conceived till afterwards , through the ignorance and superstition of some , countenanced by pretended apparitions and visions of souls departed , till at last it grew to be one of the favourite-Opinions of the Roman Church . From whence it may easily appear , how very much you were deceived , when you would inferre , because Prayer for the Dead , as it is now used in the Roman Church , doth necessarily suppose Purgatory ; therefore it must do so in the Ancient Church : for , although we should grant the same Prayers to be still used , yet since they are used for a quite different intent , that may be supposed by you , which was not at all supposed by them , nor could be inferred from what they did . And yet it is plain , that in some cases , you have changed the Prayers for the Saints , into Prayers to them : For , whereas in the old Gregorian Sacramentary , it was , Grant unto us O Lord , that this oblation may profit the soul of thy servant Leo ; in the latter Books it is turned into this , Grant unto us O Lord , that by the intercession of thy servant Leo , this oblation may profit us . From whence you may see , that your Prayers are changed from what they were : For the Ancient Church prayed universally for all Saints and Martyrs ; but you think it a disparagement to them to pray for them ; and therefore from your kind of Prayers for the Dead , we may well say , that Purgatory is supposed ; but we cannot possibly inferr it from those Prayers which were made for such , who , if any , were supposed in a state of Bliss and happiness . And that the intention of your Church is quite different from the Ancient , we now come more fully to make manifest ; because none of them did believe that Doctrine of Purgatory , which you assert . But herein we must follow your footsteps , and consider the many authorities which you produce out of Bellarmin , and undertake to vindicate in behalf of Purgatory ; to which I give this general Answer , That some Authours are counterfeit , and the places supposititious ; of those that are true , some speak only of Commemoration of the Dead , and Oblations made for them ; others respect the day of Resurrection , and the fire of Conflagration , others the purging of the wicked , others only of a purgation in this life ; but none of them all speak of any Purgatory pains of those who dye in favour with God , which they undergo as the temporal punishment of sin , from whence they may be delivered by the Prayers of the Living ; which is the only thing you should prove from them . And this I come to make appear by the examination of the particulars , as they occurr in order . The first you begin with , is , Dionysius Areopagita ; and , Is not he , say you , an Authour of the first three hundred years ? As though this had never been questioned by any ? If you had asked , Whether he had been an Ancient and Learned Authour , living sometime within the first four hundred years ; you should not have met with any opposition from me . But if you will needs have him to be the true Dionysius , you must prove it better than by meer referring us to what Bellarmin , Baronius , and Del-Rio have said upon that subject ; and you are very strangely deceived when you say , That only Erasmus , and Valla , and some few others , did doubt of it ; but at present you suppose few learned men doubt of the matter . For , even Bellarmin himself doubts of it ; and , What think you of Habertus , Sirmondus , Launaeus , Petavius ? Are not all these with you learned men , who have all declared their doubts of it ? and so will any one else do , that impartially examines the Arguments brought on both sides . But we have no reason to insist longer upon this , since you say , It is sufficient that he is acknowledged for a Writer of great Antiquity ; Well , But what is it then this Authour saith ? only that Prayers were made for the deceased party , that God would forgive his sins , and place him in the Light and Country of the Living : But , say you , both the Arch-Bishop and Primate would have thought that man a Papist , who would have made the like prayer for his deceased friend in their hearing . And very good reason they might have to think so , when they know beforehand that your intention of praying for the Dead , is , to deliver their souls from the pains of purgatory ; but , if they had heard one use such a Prayer in the Ancient Church , they could not have imagined , it was for any such intention , since the same person in Dionysius is said to be replenished with divine joy , and not fearing any change to the worse , but knowing well that the good things possessed , shall be firmly and everlastingly enjoyed ; as he speaks at his entrance upon that discourse : And , if this be in effect to teach Purgatory , as you would have it , you must set your Purgatory a great deal higher than you do ; for , you say , It is but an upper Region of Hell a little after , when Dionysius speaks of those who were in a Region of rest and happiness . Your second Authour is Tertullian ; and three Citations you produce out of him . In the first , he only mentions the oblations for the Dead , which we have confessed to be used already , but without any respect to Purgatory . In the second , a mention is made of begging of God refrigerium , refreshment for the soul of one departed : this were some thing to the purpose , if you had first proved , that Tertullian did suppose that soul to be then in the pains of Purgatory ; for then it were but reason to think this refrigerium did relate to the easing of them . But he elsewhere tells us , what he means by this refrigerium , Sinus Abrahae interim refrigerium praebiturus est animabus justorum , by which he understands not any deliverance from pains , but contentment in expectation of the future Resurrection . It was the ardency of the desire after that which made them pray for this refrigerium , not out of any punishment they were supposed to be under for sin , but their earnest expectation of future glory . And , since they supposed different degrees of refreshment which the souls had in the bosom of Abraham , this prayer only notes the desire of the continuance and increase of it , and not being under present pains for the want of it . In the last place of Tertullian , you would fain have the Carcer infernus to be Purgatory , but he means no more by it than Hades , or the common receptacle of souls till the day of Resurrection , which Irenaeus calls locum invisibilem , which renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exactly , in which he makes souls to stay till the day of Resurrection ; and Tertullian explains himself afterwards , when he sayes , Constituimus omnem animam apud Inferos sequestrari in diem Domini ; and therefore Bellarmin confesses Tertullian to be one of those , that held that no souls did enjoy the beatifical vision , till the day of Resurrection ; at which time he supposed the order of rising , to be according to the degrees of holiness ; and therefore he makes the punishment of souls not to be any Purgatory pains , but the mora resurrectionis , that they should be longer before they rise from the dead , viz. towards the latter end of the thousand years ; for so he makes the Resurrection to continue the thousand years of Christ's Reign upon earth ; and , as the highest rank of Christians should rise in the beginning of it , so others in their order according to their degrees , and the most slothful and negligent to be punished morâ resurrectionis , by their Resurrection being deferred to the conclusion of it . By which we fully understand Tertullian's meaning , Judex in carcerem te mandet infernum , unde non dimittaris , nisi modico quôque delicto morâ resurrectionis expenso ; by which lower prison he intends neither Hell nor Purgatory , but the common receptacle of souls , wherein they were held till they should rise sooner or later according to the measure of their graces and sins . The next place to be examined , is the noted one of S. Cyprian , to Antonianus : where he gives an account of the difference between the lapsed persons who become penitents , and the Martyrs . Aliud est ad veniam stare , aliud ad gloriam pervenire ; aliud missum in carcerem non exire inde , donec solvat novissimum quadrantem ; aliud statim fidei & virtutis mercedem accipere ; aliud pro peccatis longo dolore emendari , & purgari diu igne , aliud peccata omnia passione purgâsse . It is one thing to stay in hope and expectation of pardon , another thing to come presently to glory : 't is one thing to be cast into prison , and not to come out thence , till you have paid the last farthing ; another to receive presently the reward of our Faith : 't is one thing to be amended for sins by long grief , and to be purged with fire a great while ; another to have purged away all his sins by suffering Martyrdom . Did not S. Cyprian , say you , think of Purgatory , when he taught this ? No , that did he not , if we believe your own Writers . For Rigaltius tells us , that S. Cyprian here speaks of the severities of pennance , which the lapsed persons underwent in order to pardon ; and compares them with the present felicity which Martyrs were possessed of . And this was that purging fire in order to their amendment , which he insists on , to shew what great disparity there was between the state of these penitents , and the Martyrs ; thereby to shew , that though penitents were admitted by the Church , yet it was with so much severity , that might give little encouragement for men to fall in hopes of admission . For that was the main thing which S. Cyprian there discourses of . And thus likewise Albaspinaeus understands it , of such who suffered pennance all their life time , and were absolved only at the point of death ; these were they who were held in prison till they paid the utmost farthing . Neither may it seem strange that this should be called a purging fire ; since S. Hierom describing , the pennance of Fabiola , saith , Sedit super carbones ignis , She sate upon coals of fire ; and Pope Siricius in his Epistle to Himmerius extant in the Councils , calls , perpetual pennance , purificatorium poenitudinis ignem , the purging fire of pennance . And this seems a great deal more probable to be S. Cyprian's meaning , because he speaks most clearly of any of the Fathers of the immediate happiness of all Gods Children after death , in his excellent Book of mortality ; wherein he comforts the Christians of Carthage against the fears of death , by reason of the raging plague , which was then among them . It is for him , saith he , to fear death , that would not go to Christ ; it is for him not to be willing to go to Christ , that doth not believe he shall begin to raign with him ; with much more to the same purpose throughout that Book , which , I pray read , and then tell me , Whether St. Cyprian did think of Purgatory or no. I wonder with what face you produce Origen's Testimony in behalf of your Doctrine of Purgatory , since Bellarmin confesses that he held all punishment to be only Purgatory ; and that this Opinion of his was condemned in the fifth Oecumenical Council . But , you say , in the place produced by you , he saith no such thing , but that men are purged according to the mixture of Lead and Gold in them , but that those who have all Lead , shall sink down to the bottomless pit for ever . Than which ( you say ) nothing can be spoken more clearly for Purgatory . To which a short Answer shall serve by this Dilemma ; either you have faithfully represented this place of Origen , or not : If you have , it is plain that Origen hath been infinitely abused , or else apparently contradicts himself ; for you make him here plainly to assert the eternity of punishment , which the fifth General Council according to you infallibly condemned him for denying ; if you have unfaithfully represented him , then still Origen cannot be understood of such a Purgatory as you speak of , but of such a one which all must pass thorow , good and bad ; and their continuance in it , is according to the proportions of good or evil in them . And of such a Purgatory as this , Bellarmin confesses that Origen speaks : and which he places after the Resurrection , and saith , That even Peter and Paul must pass thorow it . And for such a Purgatory as this is , many places are produced out of Origen , by Sixtus Senensis , and many others . But this is an universal Purgatory for good and bad , after the Resurrection , and for the body as well as the soul ; and judge you now , Whether this be the Purgatory you contend for or no. The following Testimonies of St. Ambrose , Hilary , Lactantius , St. Hierom , &c. are taken off by Bellarmin himself ; since , although in his first Book he produceth them for the Roman Doctrine of Purgatory , yet in the beginning of the second he confesseth , that all these were for such an Vniversal Purgatory at the day of judgement , thorow which all must pass , not the Virgin Mary her self excepted . And St. Hierom , though he denies Origen's Hypothesis as to the final Salvation of all , yet seems by the places you cite out of him , very willing to admit of it , as to all such who dye in the Churches Communion ; against which Opinion St. Augustin at large disputes , as I have shewed already . I acknowledge then that these Authours do speak of a purging fire , but such a one as your selves disown and dispute against , and Bellarmin could no other wayes bring any of them off , but by saying , That they speak of the fire of the last judgement ; by which we see the apparent Sophistry , in bringing those as plain places for your Purgatory , which you confess your selves , are understood of something else . It being confessed that they speak of purging , consequent to the Resurrection , which is quite another thing from what you plead for . And besides , it is plain from St. Hierom's words , that he speaks of wicked men dying in the Communion of the Church , that they shall at last be saved . And if you will needs have arbitramur , when it is opposed to credimus , to signifie a firm belief ( which is another proof of your skill in Lexicons ) that which you can only inferr thence , is , that S. Hierom did , as firmly believe that wicked men ( if Christians ) should at last be saved , as that Devils , and Atheists , and other wicked men should be finally damned . For these are his words ; Et sicut Diaboli & omnium negatorum , atque impiorum qui dixerunt in corde suo , non est Deus , credimus aeterna tormenta ; sic peccatorum atque impiorum , & tamen Christianorum , quorum opera in igne probanda sunt atque purganda , moderatam arbitramur , & mixtam clementiae sententiam Judicis . And the same he rather more fully asserts in the other place , & Christianos , si in peccato praeventi fuerint , salvandos esse post poenas ; but you who are never backward in helping the Fathers to speak out , very commodiously render it , Such as dye before full and perfect Pennance for the sins , of which they had truly repented : Which is as far as Purgatory as from St. Hieroms meaning , for he doth not oppose penitent sinners to impenitent , but opposes wicked men dying in the Churches Communion , to the Devil and his Angels , and all other wicked persons , All which ( he saith ) shall perish eternally , but such as are Christians should be saved at last after undergoing punishment . And it is to be observed , that at the end of the Commentaries on Isaiah , he immediately before speaks of that which is supposed to be the Origenical Hypothesis , viz. That the torments of the other life shall after a long time be ended ; and when he hath produced the places of Scripture which the favourers of it did produce , he only passes this censure of it , Quod nos Dei solius scientiae debemus derelinquere ; Which we ought to leave to the knowledge of God alone ; and then concludes with that moderation of his sentence , That he did believe the eternity of torments of Devils , Atheists , &c. but of such who were Christians he did suppose God would mingle Mercy with his Justice , and that after they had been sufficiently purged by fire they might escape at last . If he had intended only a mitigation of their torments who were Christians , the opposition could not lye as it doth , between the eternity of some , and the clemency of God in others , but the eternity must have been confessed in both , and the opposition made only in the weight of the torments of such who were not Christians above such as were . If St. Hierome doth ( as Bellarmin contends ) elsewhere contradict this , by so much the less is his testimony of any validity in this case , it being plain what his meaning is here ; but that seems the less probable , because he writ his Books against the Pelagians in which he asserts the same , not long before his death . This purging fire then , of St. Hierome makes little for your purpose , since it is only a more refined branch of Origens Hypothesis , and is understood of a fire after the Resurrection , and that of Hell , and not of Purgatory , and wherein wicked men shall be purged if they dyed in the Churches Communion , and not such who repented of their sins in this life . But if St. Hierom himself do not speak to the purpose , you hope one under his name may do it ( and we must needs say Purgatory hath been alwayes beholding to forgeries ) for you cite his Commentaries on the Proverbs , which are rejected as counterfeit by Sixtus Senensis , Canus , Marianus Victorius , and Bellarmin himself . But from St. Hierome we proceed to St. Basil , who , you say , teaches the same Doctrine with him ; if he doth , it is very little for your comfort . But so far was St. Basil from asserting your Doctrine , that although he speaks of a purging fire , he speaks not at all concerning it in another life , but only of that which purgeth out sins in the souls of men in this life . For he calls the Spirit of God working upon mens souls , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which consumes sin within them ; as may be seen by comparing his Commentaries on the sixth and the ninth of Isaiah together . And where he afterwards speaks not of an utter rejection , but an expurgation as by fire ; it is plain that he understands it of the fire of affliction in this life , and not the fire of Purgatory in another . But where ever you meet with fire and purging , you think it impossible to be understood of any thing but your Purgatory ; it seems you are hugely possessed with the fears of it , that you think you meet with it , where ever you go . But if you will needs have St. Basil to speak of a future state , then your own Sixtus Senensis , and Estius will tell you that he is to be understood of the fire of Conflagration at the Day of Judgement ; of which he speaks in several other places . And so Nicetas understands the place of Gregory Nazianzene which you produce about Baptism by fire , for saith he , Per ignis baptismum , examen censuramque divini judicii intelligit , and for that cites the place of the Apostle , Every mans work shall be tryed by fire . This he calls elsewhere the last fire by which our works shall be judged and purged . And of this Lactantius and Hilary , are to be understood : for Hilary expresly saith , That even the Virgin Mary shall pass through it , whom I hope you will not place in Purgatory . The testimony of Boethius shall then be taken , when you prove that he doth not speak in the person of a Philosopher , but of a Christian delivering matters of Faith with an ut puto ; but if you had considered the design of his Book , for the sake of Philosophy , you might have spared his citation . And so you might for your own sake that of Theodoret , which not only the Greeks in their Apology cry out on as counterfeit ; but no such place , as yet appears in any edition of Theodoret. And the same Greeks tell you , if you consulted the honour of Gregory Nyssen you would spare him too , because he was a favourer of the Origenical Hypothesis concerning the redintegration of all things ; and so many places are produced out of him wherein he makes the nature of all pains to be Purgatory , that the Patriarch Germanus ( of whom Photius speaks ) had no other way to vindicate him , but by saying that the Origenists had foisted many places into his works . If you will therefore say , That it is a groundless calumny , to say that any of the Fathers did corrupt the Christian Doctrine by the opinions of Plato ; you must either deny that Origen and his followers ever asserted any Doctrine contrary to Christianity , and therein contradict the fifth Oecumenical Council ; or that any of the Fathers had any touch of Origen's opinion : both which I suppose are tasks you will be unwilling to undertake . But whether their opinions are true or false ( which we are not now enquiring after ) to be sure they are far enough from your Doctrine of Purgatory , which supposeth the Sin pardoned in this life , and yet the punishment undergone for it in another : which Doctrine if it were granted at all reasonable , it would be much more , asserting it to be after the Resurrection when the body might endure pains as well as the soul , than so absurdly as you make the soul only to suffer , and that too in a way the most unlikely of all other , viz. by a material fire . But it is time we come to the succour of St. Austin , who it seems hath his share of Purgatory in this life ; for , you say , He hath the ill hap to be used the worst of all other . Because his Lordship represents him as dubious and uncertain ( as no doubt he was ) in this point : which argues indeed that he was a Novice in your Roman Faith , but thereby the more a Father of the Church . But you are the man , that , let St. Augustin say what he will himself , will prove to his face , that he could not possibly be thought to deny or doubt of Purgatory . And it is a Combat worth seeing , to see you dispute against St. Augustin ; but you do it so pittifully , that St. Austin remains as uncertain as ever he was . The only place which seems to the purpose , Constat animas purgari post hanc vitam , &c. is so notorious a counterfeit , that not only Vives confesses , no such words appeared in the ancient Copies ; but they are wholly left out , not only in the Basil Edition 1556. but in that of Lyons 1560. and in the later Lovain and Paris editions . The other places , you confess your self , relate to the benefit which the dead receive by the prayers of the living , of which a large account hath been already given without any supposition of Purgatory . Whether St. Austins doubts did referr only to the circumstances of Purgatory , and not to the thing it self , I leave it to the consideration of any reasonable man , who will read the places already cited , wherein those doubts are expressed . By which one may see at what rate you use your expressions , when you can have the face to say , That S. Austin no less constantly teaches the Doctrine of Purgatory , than he doth the Doctrine of Heaven and Hell. Which after the language of the Sorbon-Censures , is a false , rash , and scandalous assertion , and as ungrounded as Purgatory it self . The remaining testimonies of St. Cyril and St. Chrysostom , only speak of prayer for the dead , and the benefit of that , and so offers nothing new to our consideration . But at last we are come to a man who did in good earnest believe Purgatory , and was the first of any name in the Church who did so , and that is Gregory 1. But whosoever reads in his Dialogues the excellent arguments he builds it on , and confirms it with , will find as much reason to pitty his superstition and credulity , as to condemn his Doctrine . And after this time , his Lordship saith truly , Purgatory was found too warm a business to be suffer'd to cool again ; and in the after-ages more were frighted , then led by proof into the belief of it . And although amidst the variety of judgements among the Fathers concerning the state of the dead , not one of them affirmed your Doctrine of Purgatory , before Gregory 1 ; yet by all means you will needs have it to have been still owned as an Apostolical Tradition , and an Article of Faith. But I commend you , that knowing the weakness of the arguments brought from the Fathers and Scripture , you at last take Sanctuary in the Churches Definition ; on the account of which you say , We are as much bound to believe it as any other Article of Faith , yea as the Trinity or Incarnation it self . But this holds for none , but only those who so little understand the grounds of their Religion as to believe it on the account of your Churches Infallibility ; which is so far from being any ground of Faith , that if we had nothing more certain then that , to establish our Faith upon , you would be so far from making men believe Purgatory on that account , that you would sooner make them question , whether there were either Heaven or Hell. But though your Church be so far from Infallibility that we have found her guilty of many Errours , yet the Word of God abideth for ever , which alone is the sure Foundation for our Faith to rest upon . And so I conclude with your own Prayer : I beseech God to give all men light to see this Truth , and Grace to assent unto it ; to the end , that by living in the militant Church in the Vnity of Faith , we may come at last to meet in Glory in the triumphant Church of Heaven , which we may hope for by the merits of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ : To whom with the Father , and the Holy Ghost , be all honour and glory world without end . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A61588-e7010 §. 1. 1 Joh. 1.1 , 3. Mark 16.14 . §. 2. P. 1. P. 2. §. 3. P. 2. P. 2. sect . 2. P. 3. sect . 3. n. 2. Page 3 §. 4. Navigare audent ad Petri Cathedram , & Ecclesiam Principalem , &c. nec cogitare , eos esse Romanos ad quos p●rfidea habere non potest accessum . Cypr. l. 1. c. 3. Scito , Romanam fidem ejusmodi praestigias non recipere . Hierony . Apol. 3. c. Ruff. Roma semper fidem retinet . Greg. Nazianz. carm . de vitâ suâ . Bellarm. de Pontifice Rom. l. 4. c. 4. sect . 1. Pag. 4. §. 5. P. 21. sect . 4. P. 5. n. 4. P. 25. n. 17. sect . 5. §. 6. P. 6. n. 4. §. 7. Joh. 15.26 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Athanas. ep . ad S●rapion . p. 357. Tom. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; Basil. De Spir. Sancto . c. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Greg. Nazian . orat . 37. p. 597. Tom. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Orat. 23. Tom. 1 p. 426 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyril . Paschal . 12. Tom. 5. p 2. Dogm . Theol. de Trinit . l. 7. c. 13 , 14 Tom. 2 §. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Athanas. c. Serapi . ubi supr . Acta Theolog. Wirtenberg . p. 217. &c. Res. 2. Patriarch . Concil . Florent . sess . 19 , 20 , 21 , &c. Arcudii opuscula aurea . V. ep . Cyrilli Patriarch . ad Joh. Utenbogard . inter epistol . Remonstrant . p. 402. V. L●onis Allatii Graeciam Orthodox . Tom. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Athanas. ep . ad Epictet . Tom 1. p. 562. Greg. Nazian . ep . 2. ad Cled . Concil . Ephes. part . 2. Act. 6. p. 357. Tom. 2. Binii ed. Paris . 1636. Concil . Florent . sess . 5. p. 587. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Concil . Ephes. Part 2. Act. 6. p. 366. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Concil . Chalced. Act. 5. Concil . Florent . As● . 5. p. 590. §. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyril . Alexan. Tom. 6. edit . Paris . p. 229. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Acta Theolog. Wirtenberg . Resp. 2. Patriarch . p. 202. Gregorius Palamas , c. 1. apud Petavium Dogmat. Theolog de Trin. To. 2. l. 7. c. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Sess. 19. Ubi supra . Spalatens . de Rep. Eccles. Tom. 3. l. 7. c. 10. sect . 125. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Apud Acta Concil . Ephes. part 2. Act. 6. p 360. Petav. ubi supra . Acta Theolog. Wirtenb . p. 350. &c. Resp. 3. Patriarch . Cyril . ep . ad Utenbogard . p. 403. §. 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret . c. Cyril . Anathemat . Tom. 4. p. 718. ed. Sirmond . Concil . Ephes. part 3· p. 497. ed. Bin. Cyril . Tom. 6. p. 229. Dogmat. Theol. To. 2. l. 7. c. 18. c. 1. Concil . Ephes. Part. 2. Act. 1. p. 177. Part 3. p. 596. Part. 3. p. 581. §. 11. Concil . Floren● . sess . 5. p. 593. Pithaeus Opus . de proces . S.S. p. 26. Petav. Dogm . Theol. To. 2. l. 7. c. 1. Baron . Annal. ad An. 809. Sirmond . Concil . Gallic . Tom. 2. p. 256 , 257. Quisquis ad hoc sensu subtiliori pertingere potest , & id scire , aut ita sciens , credere noluerit , salvus esse non poterit . Sunt enim multa , è quibus istud unum est , sacrae fidei altiora mysteria , ad quorum indagationem pertingere multi valent : multi verò aut aetatis quantitate , aut intelligentiae qualitate praepediti non valent ; & ideò , ut praediximus , qui potuerit , & noluerit , salvus esse non potuerit . Apud Sirmond . ubi supra . §. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Photius ep . 7. p. 51. Opuscul . edit . Lutet . 1609. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Acta Theolog. Wirtenberg . Resp. 2. Patriarch . p. 213 , 214. §. 13. Sylvester Sguropul . Histor. Concil . Florent . sect . 2. c. 10. Sect. 2. c. 12. C. 17 , 18. Sect. 6. c. 1. Sect. 3. c. 12. Sect. 3. c. 3. C. 4. Cap. 12. C. 11. C. 15. Sect. 6. c. 3. Sect. 8. c. 12. C. 13. C. 14. C 16. C. 18. Sect. 9. c. 4. C. 5. C. 8. C. 9. C. 10. Sect. 10. c. 1. C. 4. §. 14. P. 6. Sect. 9. n. 1. p. 24. §. 15. P. 7. n. 5. Theophylact. in Joh. 3.26 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theophylact. in Joh. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Joh. Damascenus de Trinit . c. 8. & l. 1. de Orthodoxa fide c. 11. Acta Theolog. Wirteab . p. 220. P. 8. Sum. 1. q 36. a●t 2. Vasquez in Tho● . To. 2. dis . 146. c. 7. Petavius dogm . Theol. To. 2. l. 7. c. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hist. Concil . Florent . sect . 8. c. 15. p. 239. Eadmer . de vita Anselm . l. 2. Malmesbu . de gestis Pontif. Angl. l. 1. §. 16. P. 25. P. 8. Sentent . 1. dist . 11. In sent . l. 1. dist . 11. art . 1. q. 1. §. 17. Ib. P. 11. §. 18. P. 11. P. 25. P. 11 , 12. P. 164. Dogmat. Theol. To. 2. l. 7. c. 2. P. 164. Baron . To. 5. An. 405. n. 58. Magni Athanasii symbolum , quamvis Treve●is ut plerique tradiderunt , i. e. in Gallia à Theologo tam●n inter illos doct●ssimo , acutissimuque scriptum . P. Pithaeus opusc . de process . ●p S. Vossius de tribus symbol . Addend ad p. 55 31. Spala●ensis de Rep. Eccles. Tom. 3. l. 7. c. 10. sect . 124. Patriarch . Cyril . ep . ad Joh. Utenbogard . p. 404. P. 164. Bellarmin . de Christo. l. 2. c. 21. sect . ult . Petav. dogmat . Theolog. de Trinit To. 2. l 7. c. 2. Ita procul-dubio à nostra parte decernitur ; ita quoque , ut à vestra ass●ntiatur , à nobis omnimodis suadetur . Apud . Sirmond . Concil . Gallic . To 2. p. 256. Baron . Annal. ad An. 809. Phot in ep . ad Patriarch . Aquileiens . Pet. Lombard . lib. 1. sent dist 11. Ta●● inter alias accusationes hoc principaliter posuit , Ipsum fore excommunicatum , quòd apposuerat ad symbolum , Sp. Sanctum à filio procedere . Similiter & depositum , quod ipse Nicolaus Papa incidisset in sententiam tertit Concilii . Antonin . Part. 3. T it 22. cap. 13. sect . 10. Concil . Florent . sess . 8. §. 19. Concil . Ephes. part . 2. Act. 6. p. 366. Concil . Florent . sess . 5. p. 587. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 589. Sess. 5. Concil . Florent . sess . 8. p. 626. P. 625. §. 20. Petrus de Marca , de Concord . Sacerd. & Imp. l. 1. c. 1. sect . 5. §. 21. P. 26. n. 3. P. 12. §. 1. P. 27. sect . 10 , n. 2. P. 13. n. 1. P. 13. P. 14. §. 2. P. 15. §. 3 ▪ P. 1● . §. 4. §. 5. §. 6. Bishop Bramhall . Schism Guarded . sect . 7 ▪ p 396. Sect. 1. cap 11. p. 190. V. Replication to the Bishop of Chalcedon ▪ p. 264. §. 7 ▪ §. 8. Irenaeus . l. 1 c. 2 , 3. Tertul. de veland . virgin . c. 1. de praescript . c. 13 , 14. Cyril Hierosolomit ▪ Catech 4 , 5. Hiero● . ep . 61. ad Pammach . Augustin . de symbol ▪ ad Catec● . l. 3 ▪ c. 1 de temp . serm . 115 , 119 , 131 ▪ 181. Ambros. serm . 38. de jejun . & Quadrag . &c. Hilar. ad Constant. Aug. Ruffinus in symbol . c. 2. §. 9. §. 10. Isa. 11.9 . Joh. 6.45 . Joh. 4.25 . Joh. 15.15 . Act. 20.27 . Act. 20.20 , 21. §. 11. Tabulae suff . cap. 19 , 20 , 21. Neque si complurium experimentis fidem habere liceat , adversus nostratium haereticorum subtilitates fides Catholica sustineri potest absque praecipuis hujus libelli dogmatibus , & ( si conjicere fas sit ) aliquibus accusatis . Tabulae suffrag . ep . dedicat . ad Papam Alex. 7. Tabulae suffrag . tab . 2. p. 11 , &c. V. exemplar ipsius Decreti apud Tho. Albii purgat . p. 9. Eminentissimos Praesules , infortunio prae●entis seculi in quo scientia ex Scholis exulat , et fidei & Theologiae veritates numero votorum aestim●ntur , incidisse in Consultores ex majori parte & ignaros & arrogantes , qui intrepid● consigant propositiones , quas jurati asserant se nescire , sintne verae vel falsae . Appendix Albiana ad Purgat . sect . poster . p. 212. A. D. 1662. §. 12. ● . 15. n. 4. P. 16. P. 28. n. 3. P. 16. P. 16 , 17. §. 14. P. 18. §. 15. N. 8. P. 31 , 32. P. 18. P. 19 , 20 , 21. §. 16. P. 29. n. 5. N. 2. P. 22. Pateret utique tandem , ipsam contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est vocalis , alioquin vel ipsi Graci , vel nos Latini sumus verè haretici . Scotus Dist. 11. l. 1. q. 1. sect . 2. P. 22 , 23. Quicquid sit de iis ex quo Ecclesia Catholica declaravit hoc esse tenendum , sicut de substantia fidei , sicut pa●et extra . de sum . Trin. & ●id . Cath. c. ●irmiter tenendum est quod Spiritu● Sanctus procedat ab utroque . Scotus . ib. §. 17. P. 31. n. 7. P. 23. P. 24. P. 20. n. 8. P. 24. §. 18. Fundata ista res est ; ferendus est disputator errans in aliis quaestionibus , non diligen●er digestis , nondum plena eccl siae autoritate firmatis , ibi ferendus est error : non tantum progredi debet , ut etiam Fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quatere moliatur . August . serm . 14. de verb. Apostol . Tom. 10. p. 2●4 . edit . Froben . 1529. P. 32 , 33. n. 9 , 10. P. 2● . Impetremus ergo , si possumus , à fratribus nostris , nè nos insuper appellent Haereticos ; quod eos talia dispurantes nos appellare possimus sorsitan , si vellemus , nec tamen appellamus . Id. ib. Non expedit : adh●c sortè nostra non est reprehendenda patientia ; sed de●emus time●c , nè culpetur etiam negligentia . §. 1. P. 34. n. 11. P. 28. n. 1. §. 2. P. 32. n. 11. Aug. contra ep . Fundam . c. 4. P. 30. C. ep . Fund . c. 5. Ibidem . §. 3. P. 32. Ecce putemus illos Episcopos qui Romae judicarunt , non bonos judices fuisse , restabat adhuc plenarium Ecclesiae universae Concilium , ubi etiam cum ipsis judicibus causa posset agitari , ut si male judicasse convicti essent , eorum sententiae solverentur . Quod utrum fecerint , probent . Nos enim non factum ●sse sa ilè probamus , ex eo quod totus o●bis non iis communicat . Aug. Epist. 162. §. 4. P. 35. n. 13. P. 3● . n. 2. §. 5. P. 35. n. 13. P. 33. n. 3. Paulò post enim , lectis Commentariis Romae sub Coelestino conscriptis , & haeresis ipsa Pelagiana , & authores , sautoresque ejus episcopi , ab Oecumenica Synodo iterum condemnati sunt . Jansenius de haeres . Pelag. lib. 1 ▪ p. 31. Nestoriana lues successi Pelagianae , Quae tamen est utero progenerata meo . Me tamen una dedit victam sententia letho : Illa volens iterum surgere , bis cecidit . Mecum oritur , mecum moritur , mecum sepulchrum Intrat , & inferni carceris ima subit . Prosper in Epitaph . Nestor . & Pelag. haeres . §. 6. P. 36. P. 33. n. 4. §. 7. P. 36. n. 14. P. 35. §. 8. Ibid. P. 3● . §. 9. P. 38. n. 15. n. 16. P. 37. §. 10. P. 37. ● . 8. Pag. 38. §. 11. Commonit . 1. c. 1. Cap. 2. Cap 3. Cap. 4. Nihil novandum nisi quod traditum est . Nosque religionem , non quâ vellemus ducere , sed quâ illa duceret , sequi oportere . Idque esse proprium Christiana modestiae & gravitatis , non sua posteris tradere , sed à majoribus accepta servare . cap. 9. Adnunciare ergo aliquid Christianis Catholicis praeter id quod acceperunt , nunquam licuit , nunquam ▪ licet , nunquam licebit : & Anathematizare eos qui Adnuncient aliquid , praeterquam quod semel acceptum est , nunquam non oportuit , nusquam non oportet , nusquam non oportebit . Vincent . Lerin . cap. 14. Quicquid universaliter antiqui●ùs Ecclesiam Catholicam tenuisse cognovent , id solùm sibi tenendum , credendumque decernit . cap. 25. Mirari satis nequeo tantam quorundam hominum vesaniam , tantam excacatae men●is impietatem , tantam postremò errandi libidinem , ut contenti non sint trad●tâ semel & acceptâ antiquitùs credendi regulâ ; sed nova & nova in diem quaerunt , semperque aliquid gest●u●t religioni addere , mutare , detrahere . Quasi non coeleste dogma sit , quod semel revelatum esse sufficiat ; sed terrena institutio , quae aliter perfici nisi assiduâ emendatione , immò potius reprehensione , non possit . cap. 26. Abdicatâ enim qualibet parte Catholici dogmatis , alia quoque item atque alia , &c. quid aliud ad extremum sequetur , nisi ut totum pariter repudietur ? cap. 31. §. 12. Pag. 39. §. 13. Pag. 39. Quid si novella aliqua contagio non jam por●●unculam tantum , sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conctur ? tunc item providebit , ut antiquitati inhaereat . cap. 4. §. 14. P. 39. n. 16. P. 42 n. 9. Pag. 40. Pag 43. Bellarm. de justific . l. 3. c. 8. sect . 2. Pag. 43 , 44. §. 1. P. 45. n. 1. §. 2. P. 42. sect . 11 : n. 1. P. 44. P. 42. n. 2. §. 3. P. 46. P. 43. n. 2. P. 46. n. 4. §. 4. P. 48. n. 6. P. 50. n. 1. P. 47. n. 4. §. 5. P. 48 ▪ n. 6. P. 50 n. 1. P. 49 , §. 6. P. 51. n. 2. P. 49. n. 8. §. 7. P. 52. sect . 15. n. 1. P. 53. n. 2. P. 51. P. 54. n. 1. P. 51. n. 9 , §. 8. P. 55. n. 4. P. 52. n ▪ ● , P. 56 ▪ §. 9. §. 10. §. 1. §. 2. Pag. 55. Sect. 16. n. 1. §. 3. Ibid. §. 4. §. 5. §. 6. 1 Joh. 1.1 . 2 Pet. 1.16 . Luk. 1.1 , 2. §. 7. §. 8. §. 9. Praefat. in Mat. quaest . 13. Quaest. 4. in Math. ad proleg . 2. P. 55. n. 1. P. 58. n. 4. §. 10. V. Supplicat . ad Imperat. Reg. Princip . super causis generalis Concilii convocandi contra Paulum 5. Lond. 1613. §. 11. Becan . sum . p. 2. Tom. pa●tr . de fide . c. 1. q. 2. sect . 8. Valent. Tom. 1. disp . 1. q. 1. punct . 1. sect . 8. Colum. 35. P. 55. n. 1. P. 58. n. 4. §. 12. P. 55. n. 1. P. 56. n. 2. 2 Pet. 1.21 . P. 56. n. 2. §. 13. P. 55. n. 1. P. 56. n. 2. P. 57. P. 56. n. 2. P. 55. n 1. §. 14. De Notis ●cclesiae . cap. 14. §. 15. §. 16. P. 61. n. 3. Aristot 1. Post. c. 2. T. 16. Pag. 57. §. 17. Ibid. §. 18. P. 58. n. 4. 4. P. 55. P. 58 , 59. P. 59. Pag. 6● . §. 19. P. 62. P. 60 , 61. In cap. 14. ep . ad Rom. Huic Anacleto soli magis crediderim , &c quàm Hieronymo , Augustino , aut cuiviis alii recentiori , quantumlibet docto & sancto . Advers . haeres . l. 6. verbo Episcopus . Respondeo , Cyprianum hoc scripsisse cum errorem suum tueri vellet , & ideo non mirum si errantium more tunc ra●iocinaretur . De verbo Dei. l. 4. c. 11. Videtur , mortalitèr peccâsse . De Pontif. R. l. 4. c. 7. Haec Opinio falsa est , meo judicio . De Pontif . l. 4. c. 12. Dico , Chrysostomum ut quaedam alia per excessum ita locutum esse . De Missa . l. 2. c. 10. Respondeo , Augustinum non expendisse l●cum ●unc diligenter . De Euch. l. 1. c. 11. De verbo Dei. l. 4. c. 11. Ibid. Dict. D. l. 1. c. 9. l. 3. c. 1. l. 4. c. 9. De Poenit ▪ l. 3. c. 7. l. 4. c. 9 ▪ In Mat. 16.18 . In Mat. 21.9 . In Ma● . 19.11 . In Joh. 6. n. 69. In Joh. 6. n. 116. §. 20. Hermannus ait , Scripturas valere quantum fabulas Aesopi , si deftituantur Ecclesiae autoritate : referente Brentio . V. Bailly tract . 1. q. 17. Sunt Scripturae , quidam velut nasus cereus , qui se horsum , illorsum , trahi retrahi , fingique facilè permittit . Albert. Pighius . Hierarch . l. 3. c 3. Etiamsi scriptura dicat , libros Prophetarum & Apostolorum esse divinos , tamen non credam esse , n●si prius hoc credidero Scripturam esse divinam : nam in Alcorano Ma●umetis , passim legimus ipsum Alcoranum de coelo à Deo missum , & tamen ei non credimus . De verbo Dei. l. 4. c. 4. Scriptura debet ab Ecclesiâ regulari , & non contra . Caranza Controv. 1. Pigh . Controvers . l. 1 c. 2. Valent. l. 4. c. 2. de Analys . Fid. Bellarm. l. 4. c. 12. de verbo Dei. §. 21. P. 61. §. 22. ● 62. §. 23. P. 62 , 63 n. 5. P. 56. P. 63. §. 24. P. 63. l. 50. P. 64. n. 6. P. 64. l. 46. Ibid. Ibid. P. 64 ▪ §. 25. P. 65 l. 8. P. 64 n. 6. P. 65. P. 65. §. 1. P. 66 ch . 6. n. 1. §. 2. C. ep . fund . c. 5. Ibid. §. 3. Tom. 2. ep . 11● ▪ Ipsa Scripturarum verba ponenda sunt ut ipsis quibus adversum nos usus eft testimon●is revincatur . Advers . Helv. prim . Sed ut bec quae scripta sunt non ●egamus , ita 〈◊〉 quae non sunt scripta renuimus : Natum Deum esse de Virgine credimus , quia legimus ; Mariam nupsisse post partuns , non cr●dimus quia non legimus . Hierony . advers . Helv. To. 2. p. 6. col . 1. ed. P. 1533. V. Ambros. Tom. 3. ep . 9. Basil. 1555. Epiphan . haeres . 78. Tom. 1. l. 3. edit . Petav. Aug. de haeres . 84. V. Vasquez in 3. p. Thom. tom . 2. disp . 1●● . c. 6. Epiph. haeres . 78. sect . 7. p. 1038. Homil. 25. p. 509. Tom. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ibid. Not. in Basil. To. 3. p. 49. es● . Paris . 1638. Comment . in Matth. 23. Tom. 9. Ubi supra . In 3. p. Thom. ●om . 2. q. 28. art . 3. cap. 7. §. 4. Contra D●natist . l. 2. c. 7. Ex Evangelio profero certa documenta . l. 1. c. Donatist cap. 6. Quid sit perniciosius , utrum non baptizari an rebaptizari , judicare difficile est , veruntamen recurrens ad illam stateram Dominicam , ubi non ex humano sensu sed ex divinâ auctoritate rerum momenta pensantur , inveni● de utrâque re Domini sententiam , nempe in Scripturis . l. 2. c. 14. Huc accedit quia benè perspectis ex utroque latere disputationis rationibus , & Scripturarum Testimoniis , potest etiam dici , Quod veritas declaravit hoc sequimur . l. 4. c. 7. vid. l. 4. c. 24. l. 5. c. 4. l. 6. c. 1. l. 5. c. 23. c. 26. Espenc . de Eucharist . ad O●at . l. 2. c. 12. §. 5. P. 6● . §. 6. P. 68. n. 2. Commonit . c. 3. §. 7. P. 68. P. 69. §. 8. P. 69. n. 10. P. 69. n. 3. P. 70. §. 9. §. 10. Pag 70 , 71. P. 71 , 72. P. 74. n. 12. Institut . l. 1. c. 7. sect . 4. Controv. de Script . q. 3. c. 1. Id statuendum est , authoritatem humanam & incitamenta omnia illa praedicta , sive alia quaecunque adhibita ab eo qui proponit fidem , non esse sufficientes causas ad credendum ut credere tenemur ; sed praeterea opus est interiori causá efficiente , i. e. Dei speciali auxili● moventis ad credendum . Locor . theol . l. ● . c. 8. Resp. ad 4. arg . l 2. c. 8. sect . Jam si hac . Arcanum hoc divini Spiritûs testimonium prorsus necessarium est , ut quis Ecclesiae testimonio ac judicio , circa Scripturarum approbationem credat . Triplicat . advers Whitak . cap. 3. Et verò Deus ipse imprimis est qui Christianam doctrinam , atque adeò Scripturam sacram veram esse , voce revelationis suae , & intern● quodam instinctu & impulsu humanis mentibus contestatur atque persuadet ; ut in eâ ipsâ scripturà multis in lo●is est expressum , & praeclare à Prospero Aquitanico explicatur . De An●lysi fide● l. 1. c. 1. §. 11. P. 74. n. 13. N. 14. P. 72. l. 9 , 1● . P. 75. l. 5. P. 72. n. ● . §. 12. P. 77. n. 15. P. 73. P. 80. n. 18. §. 13. §. 14. P. 7. n. 6. Mark 16 ▪ 14. P. 75 ▪ 76 ▪ §. 15. P. 83. P. 76. P. 77. P. 77. §. 16. Iren. l. 3. c. 4. Quid autem , si neque Apostoli quidem scripturas reliquissent nobis , nonne oportebat ordinem sequi traditionis , quam tradiderunt iis quibus committebant Ecclesias ? Cui ordinationi assentiunt multae gentes barbarorum , qui in Christum credunt , sine chartâ & atramento scriptam habentes salutem , & veterem traditionem custodientes . Quicquid Servator de suis factis & dictis nos legere voluit , hoc scribendum illis tanquam suis manibus imperavit . De Consens . Evang , l. 1. c. ult . Non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognovimas , quàm per eos , per quos evangelium pervenit ad nos ; quod quidem tunc praeconiavé●unt , postea verò per Dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradidérunt , f●ndamentum & columnam fidei nostrae ●uturum . Iren. l. 3. cap. 1. Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 69. Augustin . 2. cont . Donat. cap. 7. Homo itaque fide , spe , & charitate subnixus , eáque inconcussè retine●s , non indiget scripturis nisi ad alios instruendos . Itaque multi per haec tria , etiam in solitudine sine codicibus vivunt . De Doctr. Christianâ l. 1. cap 39. Titubab●t autem fides , s● divinarum scripturarum vacillat auctoritas . De Doctr. Christ. l. 1. c 38. Ad edomandam labore superbiam , & intellectam à fastidio revocandum , cui facilè investigata plerumque vilescunt . l. 2. c. 6. In Canonicis autem scripturis ecclesiarum catholica●um q●amplurium au●toritatem sequa●ur , inter quas sane illae sunt , quae Apostoli 〈◊〉 sedes habere , & epistolas accipere ●●eruerunt . l. 2. c. 8. In iis enim quae apert● posita in Scriptur● sunt , inveniuntur illa omnia , quae continent fidem , moresque vivendi . l. 2. c. 9. De Baptism . c. Donatist . l 5. c. 24. Quod autem nos admonet , ut ad fontem recurramus , i. e. ad Apostolicam traditionem , & inde canalem in nostra tempora dirigamus , optimum est , & sine d●bitatione faciendum . l 5. c. 26. Cypr. ep . 74. Vnde traditio haec , utrúmne de Dominic● authoritate descendens , an de Apostolorum mandatis & epistolis veniens ? Ea enim esse facienda quae scripta sunt testatur , &c. Si in Evangelio pr●cipitur , aut in Apostolorum epistolis aut Actibus invenitur , observetur etiam sancta haec traditio . Proinde , inquit , frustra quidam qui ratione vincuntur , Consuetudinem nobis objiciunt , q●asi consuetudo major sit veritate ; aut non id sit in spiritualibus sequend●m quod in melius suerit à Spirit● Sancto revelatum . Hoc planè verum est , quia ratio & veritas consu●tudini p●aeponenda est Aug. de baptism . c. Donat. l. 4. c. 5. Quis a●tem nesciat Sanctam Scripturam Canonicam , tam Veteris quam Novi Testamenti certis suis terminis co●●tineri , eamque omnibus p●sterioribus Episcoporum literis ita praeponi , ut de illâ omnino dubitari & disceptari non possit , utrum verum , vel utrum rectum sit ; quicquid in eā scriptum esse constiterit . l. 2 ▪ de bapt . c. Donat. cap. 3. §. 18. P. 78. §. 19. P. 81. n. 20. Ego verò Evangelio non crederem , nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret authoritas . Aug. l. 1. c. ep . fund . c. 5. Ibid. n 7. Et sic aperitur modus intelligendi illud Augustini , Evangelio non crederem , nisi me authoritas Ecclesiae compulisset . Ibidem enim Ecclesiam sumit , pro primitivâ congregatione fidelium eorum , qui Christum viderunt , audiêrunt , & sui testes fuerunt Gerson . lect . 2. de vitâ spirituali a● . Coroll . 7. Hoc autem quod dictum est de approbatione Scriptur● per Ecclesiam , intelligitur solum de Ecclesiá quae fuit tempore Apostolorum , qui fuërunt repleti Spiritu Sancto , & nihilominus vidêrunt miracula Christi & audierunt ejus Doctrinam . & ob hoc fuërunt convenientes testes omnium quae Christus fecit aut d●cuit , ut per eorum testimonium Scriptura , continens facta & dicta Christi , approbaretur . Durand . l. 3. dist . 24. q. 1. sect . 9. P. 79. Augustinus cum dicit , ego Evangelio &c. intelligit de Ecclesiá Catholicá quae fuit ab initio Christianae fidei , secundum seriem successionis Episcoporum crescens ad haec usque tempora , quae san● ▪ Ecclesia complectitur Collegium Apostolorum . Driedo . Tom , 1. l. 4. cap. 4. §. 20. P. 81. n. 21. P. 80. P. 82. §. 1. §. 2. Heb. 2.3 , 4. §. 3. §. 4. Joh. 16. ●3 . Joh. 6.19 . §. 5. Sect. 16. n. 20. P. 84. P. 85. P. 82. P. 8● . §. 6. §. 7. Biblioth . Vatican . p. 229. In hâc autem germani textûs pervestigatione , satis perspicuè inter omnes constat , nullum argumentum esse certius ac firmius , quam antiquorum probatorumque Codicum Latinorum fidem , quos tam impressos , quam MSS. ex bibliothecis variis conquirendos curavimus . Sixtus 5. Praefat. Pag. 49. Bailius Contr. Catech. q. 15· tr . 1. Huntl . Controv. 1. c. 13. sect . 9. Iren. l. 1. c. 29. Tertul. c. Marcion . l. 5. Epiph. haeres . 42. Ambros. de Sp. S. l. 3. c. 11. Theodoret. de haeret . Fab. l. 1. Bellar. l. 2. de V. D. c. 7. §. 8. Pag. 83. Pag. 84. §. 9. Epiph. haeres . 66. Nihil mihi videtur ab iis im●udentius dici , vel ut mitius loqua● , incuriosias & imbecillius , quam Scripturas divinas esse corruptas , cum id n●ll● , in tam recenti memo●iâ , extantibus exempla●●bus possint convincere . D. August . de Utilit . cred . c. 3. Quam multa soleant dicere immixta esse scripturis divinis , à nescio quibus co●ruptoribus veritatis . Volunt enim nescio quos corruptores divinorum librorum ante ipsius Manichaei tempora fuisse . Id. ib. Corrupisse autem illos , qui Judaeorum legem Evangelio miscere capiebant . Ipsiusque Novi Testamenti-Scripturas tanquam infalsatas ita legunt , ut quod voluerint inde accipiant quod nolunt rejiciant . Aug. haeres . 46. Evangilium quid●m à praedicatione Christi & esse caepit & numinari : at verò Genealogia adeo non est Evangelium , ut nec ipse ejus scriptor ausus fuerit eam Evangelium nominare . Faustus apud August . c. Faustum . l. 2. init . l. 3. init . l. 5. init . Ubi si● man●festâ veritate isti praefocantur ut obs●ssi d lu●idis verbis Sanctarum Scripturarum , exitum in iis sall●ci● suae reperire non possint ; d●test monium , quod prolatum est , salsum esse res●ondent . c. Faustum . l. 11. c. 2. Quae autoritas literarum aperiri , quis sacer liber evolvi , quod documentum cujuslibet Scripturae ad convincendos errores exeri potest , si h●c vox admittitur , si alicujus ponderis aestimatur ? Id. ib. Si ergo invenires aliquem , qui Evangelio nondum credit , quid faceres dicenti tibi , Non credo ? Ego verò evangelio non crederem , nisi me Catholicae ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas . Quibus ergo obtemperavi dicentibus , credite Evangelio , car eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi , Noli credere Manichaeo ? c. ep . Fundam . c. 5. Cui libro necesse est me credere , si credo Evangelio ; quoniam utramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas . Ib. Quid ages ? quò te convertes ? quam libri à te prolati originem , quam vetustatem , quam seriem successionis testem citabis ? Aug. c. Faustum . l. 11. c , 2. Et vides in hâc re quid Ecclesiae Catholicae valeat authoritas , quae ab ipsis fundatissimis sedibus Apostolorum usque ad hodiernum diem succedentium sibimet Episcoporum serie , & tot populorum consensione firmatur . Id. ib. Ita si de side exemplarium quaestio verteretur sicut in nonnullis , quae & paucae sunt , & Sacrarum Literarum studiosis notissimae sententiarum varietates , vel ex aliorum Regionum codicibus , unde ipsa Doctrina commeavit , nostra dubitatio dijudicaretur : vel , si ibi quoque codices variarent , plures paucioribus , aut vetustatiores recentioribus praeferrentur : & si adhuc incerta varietas , praecedens lingua unde illud interpretatum est consuleretur Id. ib. §. 10. P. 85. n. 3. P. 83. Pag. 86. P. 86. l. 33 , 34. Cum multa sint in ipsâ Doctrinâ Christianâ quae ipsa per se fidem ill & autoritatem conciliare possint , tamen mihi maximum illud esse videtur , ( ut à Clement . Alex. & à Lactant. & ab aliis est observatum ) quod suâ nescio quâ admirabili vi , divinè prorsus hominum animos afficit , atque ad virtutem impellit . Est scripta verbis simplicibus , & caret ferè artificio orationis & ornamentis ; nibilominus ita vehementer lectoris mentem commovet , ut nulla alia doctrina . Quod argumento est , illius autoritatem omnino Divinam esse , & non humanam ; haec enim sine verborum arte , & orationis quasi lenociniis , ad efficiendum a●imorum motum non valet . Greg de Valentiâ . Analys . fidei . l. 1 c. 25. §. 11. P. 87. Aug c. ep . Fund . c. 4. §. 12. P. 69. sect . 16. n. 10. P. 101. n. 32. P. 84. Orig. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . l. 4. c. 1. P. 88. Ibid. §. 13. P. 88 , 89. Pag. 9● . §. 14 ▪ Ibid. n. 7. Pag. 86. §. 15. P. 91. &c. n. 8 , 9. De Eccles. l. 3. c. 14. L. 3 sect . 8 P. 90. L. 2. sect . 7. L. 2. sect . 4. L. 2. sect . 8. §. 1. §. 2. Sect. 16. n. 26. P. 98. n. 1. P. 91. n. 26. P. 97. n. 1. Deut. 17.8 . Deut. 17.12 . 2 Chron. 15.3 . P. ●7 . §. 3. P. 92. P 97. S. Basil. de Sp. S. c. 27. Tom. 1. Catechism . Rom. de baptis . Concil . Florent ▪ Act. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basil. de verâ ac piâ fide . Tom 20. p. gr . lat . p. 386. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hom. 29 de Trinit . Tom. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . In Ethicis . Reg. 16 v. Tom. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ib. reg . 80. c. 22. Basil. ep . 64. L. 4. de V.D. c. 7. De Amiss . Grat. l. 1. c. 13. §. 4. Ib●d . n. 2. Apud nos autem , non nova ant repentina res est , ut baptiza●dos censeamus ●os qui ab haereticis ad Ecclesiam veniunt ; quando multi jam anni sunt , & longa aetas , ex quo sub Agrippin● convenientes in unum Episcopi plurimi hoc statuerint , atque exinde in hodiern●m diem tot millia haereticorum , &c. Cyprian . ep . 73. De baptism . C Donat. l. 4. Agrippinus omnium mortalium primus contra Divinum Canonem , contra universalis Ecclesiae regulam , contra sensum omnium consacerdotum , contra morem atque instituta majorum , baptizandos eos qui ab haereticis ad Ecclesi●m venirent , censuisse . Commonit . l. 1. cap. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Ap●d Euseb. Hist. Eccles. l. 7. c. 7. Quod totum nos jam pridem in Iconio qui Phrygiae locus est collecti , in unum convenientibus ex Galatiâ & Ciliciâ , & caeteris proximis regionibus confirmavimus . Cypr. ep 75. Ubi pronomen Nos non de ipsius Firmiliani personaâ , sed potius de ejus decessoribus accipiendum est . Vales. not . in Euseb. l. 7. c. 7. Verum etiam omnes serè ( Ecclesiae ) quae in Oriente magno numero Christianam pietatem profitebantur . Rigalt . not . in Cyprian . p. 145. Caterum nos veritati & consuetudinem jungimus , & consuetudini Romanorum , consuetudinem sed veritatis opponimus ; ab initio hoc tenentes , quod à Christo & ab Apostolo traditum est . ep . 75. Cypr. p. 164. ed. Rigalt . V. etiam Basil. ep . primâ Canon . ad Amphilochium . Tom. 2. p. 759. Idque esse proprium Christianae modestiae & gravitatis , non sua posteris t●a●ere , sed à majoribus accepta servare . Ibid. Quae san● sunt à Vincentio verissimè ac prudentissimè pron●nciata , si non alia si●t à majoribus tradita , quàm quae majores ab Apostolis susceperant : Caeterùm , sub nomine ac personâ majorum , per fatuos aut Sophist●s , asinina aut Sophistica pro. Apostolicis traderentur . Rigalt . observ . in Cyprian . p. 147. Cypr. ep . 74 , 75 Quantum ad id perti●eat quod Stephanus dixit , quasi Aposto●i eos qui ab haeresi veniant , baptiz●ri prob buer●nt , & hoc custodiendum posteris tradiderint , plenissimè vos respondistis ; Neminem tam stultum esse , qui hoc credat Apostolos trad●d●sse ▪ quando etiam ipsas b●reses constet execrabiles ac detestandas post●a extitisse . Firmil . ep . Cypr. 75. Apostoli autem nihil quidem exinde praecepêrant sed consu●tudo illa quae opponebatur 〈◊〉 , ab corum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est : sicut sunt multa quae un●v●rsa tenet Ecclesia , & ob hoc ab Apostol●s praecepta benè creduntur , quanqu●m scripta non rep●riantur . Aug. c. Donat. l. 5 c. 23. Joh. 3.5 . Joh. 6.53 . §. 5. §. 6. P. 99. n. 3. Gen. 49.10 . §. 7. Pag. 94. Pag. 99. Pag. 100. §. 8. P. 93. n. 28. Matth. 28.20 . Pag. 101. Pag. 102. §. 9. Pag. 96. §. 10. P. 103. n. 5. N. 6. P. 104. n. 7. Eph. 2.20 . §. 11. P. 98. n. 3 ● P. 105. §. 1. §. 2. Phot. biblioth . Cod. 234. Pet. Halliox in vit . Just. Mart. c●p . 2. in not . Medulla Patr. p. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Justin. Martyr . Dialog c. Tryph. p. 224 , 225 ed Paris 1636. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. p. 226. §. 3. Paraenes . p. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. Apolog. 1. p. 50· 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. P. ●1 , 52. P. 61 , 6● , &c. P. ●3 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Apol. 2. p. 89. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Orat. 2. p. 4● . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Athenag . Apol. p. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Tatianus . p. 165. §. 4. C. Valentin . cap. 5. Iren. l. 1. c. 1. p. 4. ed. Erasm. Petav. not . in Epiph. in hares . Valent. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Iren. apud Epiph. haeres . 31. sect . 14. L. 1. c. 2. L. 1. c. 3. L. 3. c. 1. Quibus si quis non assentit , spernit quidem participes Domini , spernit autem & ipsum Christum Dominum , spernit verò & Patrem , & est à seipso damnatus , resistens & repug●ans saluti suae , quod faciunt omnes haeretici . Iren. l. 3. c. 1. §. 5. Cum enim ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scriptu●arum , quasi non rectè habeant , neque si●t ex authoritate , & quia vari● si●t dicta , & quia no● possit ex hi● inveniri veritas ab his qui nesciant traditionem . Iren. l. 3. c 2. Et habemus annumerare eos , qui ab Apostolis instituti sunt Episcopi in Eccles●is & successores eorum usque ad nos , qui nihil tale docuerunt , neque cognovêrunt , quale ab his deliratur . L. 3. c. 3. §. 6. Hieron . ep . ad Magnum . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Clem. Alex. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 50. ed. Paris . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 55. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 56. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Strom. 2. p. 362. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 369. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Strom. 6. p. 649. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Strom. 6. p. 674. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 675. P. 676 , 678 , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 697. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 698. P. 753 , &c ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. p. 755. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. p. 756. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Strom. 7. p. 757. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ibid. §. 7. Origines sacrae . l. 2. c. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. §. 8. P. 10. n. 3● . P. 108. Ali●s 〈◊〉 ita lego , ut quantālibet sanctitate , doctrin●que praepolleant , non ideò verum putem , qui ipsi ita sens●runt , sed quia mihi , vel per illos authores C●nonicos , vel probabili ratione , quod à vero non abhorreat , persuadere potuêrunt . August . ep . 19. Lib. 1. c. 39. Quum ●it perfectus Scripturarum Canon , sibique ad omnia satis superque sufficiat , &c. l. 1. c. 2. §. 9. Sic quotidie apud illos qui foris sunt intrat Christus per mulierem , in Ecclesiam , & credunt per istam famam , &c. Hen. à Gand. sum . p. 2. A. 10. q. 1. Plus verbis Christi in Scripturâ credit , quam Ecclesiae testificanti : quia propter illam jam credit Ecclesiae . Et , si ipsa quidem contraria Scripturae diceret , ipsi no● crederet . Id. P. 108. §. 10. P. 109. P. 109. P. 110 ▪ §. 11. P. 111. Aug. c. Faustum . l. 28. c. 2 ▪ P. 111 , 112. P. 113. Non jam hominibus , sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante & illuminante . Aug. c. ep . Manich. c. 14. §. 12. P. 114. P. 115. P. 116. Ibid. §. 13. P. 116. §. 14. P. 117. n. 7. P. 118 , &c. n. 8 , 9 , 10. §. 15. P. 123. sect . 18. n. 5. P. 122. n. 11. P. 1●4 . sect . 19. P. 123 , &c. n. 12. ad fin . cap. 9. Notes for div A61588-e182520 §. 1. §. 2. §. 3. §. 4. P. 127. sect 20. n. 1. N. 2. P. 127. c. 2. n. 1. P. 128. n. 2. N. 3. Sect. 20. n. 2. P. 129. §. 5. P. 129. n. 3. §. 6. P. 129 n. 4. P. 130 n 4. P. 131. P. 130. n. 5. §. 7. Hanc praedicationem cum acceperit , & hanc fidem quem idmodum praediximus Ecclesia , & quidem in universum mundum disseminata , diligentèr custodit , quasi unam domum inhabitans , & similiter credit iis , videlicet quasi unam animam habens , & unum cor , & consonantèr haec praedicat & docet & tradit quasi unum possidens os . Irenaeus advers . haeres . l. 1. c. 3. Ecclesia enim per universum orhem usque ad fines terrae disseminata , & ab Apostolis & à discipulis eorum accepit eam fidem , &c. l. 1. c. 2. Statim igitur Apostoli — 1. per Judaeam contesta●â fide in Jesum Christum & Ecclesiis institutis ; dehinc in orbem profecti , eandem doctrinam ejusdem fidei Nationibus promulgavâ●unt , & proinde Ecclesias apud unamquamq , civitatem condidêrunt , à quibus traducem fidei & semia● doctrine , ceterae exinde Ecclesiae mutuatae sunt , & quotidie mutuantur ut Ecclesiae fiant : ac per hoc & ipsae Apostolicae deput●ntur , ut soboles Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum . Omne genus ad origin●m suam recenseatur , nec●sse est . Itaque tot ac tantae ecclesiae , una est illa ab Apostolis prima , ex qua omnes . Sic omnes primae & Apostolicae , dum unà omnes probant unitatem ▪ dum est illis communica●io pacis , & appellatio fraternitatis , & contesseratio hospita●itatis . Tertul. de prescript . haeretic . cap. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret . in Psal. 47.4 . Tom. 1. p. 580. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret. Ecclesi . hist. l. 1. c. 9. Perrons Reply to King James l. 4. c 9. §. 8. v. Rigalt . ad Cypr. ep . 49. Petav. ad Epiphan . haeres . 59. p. 226. Vales. ad ●useb . l. 6. c. 43 , 44. Albaspin . & Balduin . in Optat. Cyprian . ep . 52. ed. Rigalt . Manente concordiae vinculo , & perseverante Catholicae ecclesiae individuo sacramento , actū suum disponit ac dirigit unusquisque episcopus , rationem propositi sui Domino redditurus . Cyprian . ep . 52. c●m sit à Christo una Ecclesia per totum mundum in multa membra divisa : item Episcopatus unus , Episcoporum multorum concordi 〈◊〉 diffusus . Id ib p. 81. Itaque ex unitatis Ecclesiasticae disciplinā , Cyprianus solicitudinem omnium Ecclesiarum ad se pertinere non ambigens , etiam Romam se dedisse literas ait ad clerum . Eas veròlite as per totum mundum missas , h. e. per Ecclesiam Catholicam , cujus Ecclesiae unus est Episcopatus : atque hujusmodi Episcopatûs à singulis Ep●scopis in solidum pa●s tenebatur . Rigalt . observ . ad Cypr. p 64. §. 9. Quae autem causa veniendi & pseudo episcoporum contra Episcopos factum nunciandi ? Aut enim placet illis quod fecerunt , & in suo scelere perseverant : Aut , si disp●icet & reced●at , sciunt quò revertantur . Nam cùm statutum sic omnibus nobis , & aequum sit paritèr ac justum , ut uniuscujusque causa illic audiatur , ubi est crimen admissum , & singulis pastoribus portio gregis sit adscripta , quam regat unusquisque & gubernet , rationem sui actûs Domino redditurus : oportet utique eos quibus praesumus non circumcu●sare , nec Episcoporum concordiam cohaerentem suâ subdolâ & fallaci temeritate collidere , sed agere illis causam suam , ubi & accusatores habere & testes sui criminis possint : nis● si paucis desperatis & perditis minor videtur esse auctoritas Episcoporum in Africâ constitutorum , qui jam de illis judicavérunt , & eorum conscientiam multis delictorum laqueis vinctam judicii sui nuper gravitate damn●runt . Cyprian ep . 55. p. 95. De Unitate Eccles. p. 208 ▪ Ut ad Catholicae Ecclesiae unitatem scissi corporis membra componere●t . Cypr. ep . 42. §. 10. Eusebius histor . Ecclesiastic . lib. 5. cap. 24. Hieronym . de scriptor . ecclesiast . To. 1. Socrat. l. 2 c. 5. Sozom. l. 3. c. 5. Socrat. l. 2 c. 11 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Epiphanius . haeres . 42. sect . 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Synes . epist. 58. p. 203. ed. Petav. §. 11. P. 131. Advocavit a● se Episcopum loci , perconta●usque est , utrûranam cum Episcopis Catholicis , hoc est , cum Roman● Ecclesiâ conveniret . D. Ambros. orat . in obit . fra●r . Et forte & ad id locorum in Schismate regionis illius ecclesia erat . Lucifer enim se à nostrā tunc temporis communione diviserat , & quanquam pro fide exulâ ; sset , & fidei suae reliquisset haeredes , non putavit tamen fidem esse in Schismate . Id. ib. Nec ob Sardorum tantum mastrucam Dei Filium descendisse . Hieronym . c. Lucifer . init . Mastruca vestis Barbaricae genus , quam Sardisu● linguâ Nastrucam appellant : significans multos adhuc superesse bonos Christianos , etiamsi nulli essent in Sardinia , in quâ solâ ille Christi ecclesiam esse volebat . Erasmus in Scholiis . Sed tu scito , &c. Romanam fidem Apostolico ore laudatam , cujus se esse ▪ participem Alexandrina Ecclesia gloriatur . Hieronym . ep . 68. ad Theophil . Sed tamen scito , nobis nihil esse antiquiu● quàm Christi jura servare , nec patrum transire terminos , semperque meminisse Romanam fidem Apostolico ore laudatam , cujus se esse participem Alexandrina Ecclesia gloriatur . Hieronym . Theoph. Tom 2. p. 110. ed ▪ Chevall , 1533. Sic omnes fer● Latini Patres , Pauli ad Romanos verba accep●runt , quasi rectior & sincerior fuisset apud Romanos fides : cum hoc tantum dicat Apostolus ; agere se gratias Deo , quod ubique passim fama fit , etiam Romanos rerum Dominos , fidem Christianam suscepisse . Quod certe ob dignitatem Urbis , quae totius orbis erat ▪ 〈◊〉 & gentium 〈◊〉 valdè ad fidei Christianae propagationem conducebat . Rigaltius Observat ad Cyprian , epist. p. ●● . Quia nulla virtutum videntes insignia , suscep●runt fidem Christi , quamvis corrupto sensu . Ambros. praefat . in ep . ad Roman . Quamvis non secundum regulam ab autoribus traditae veritatis , tamen quia quod ab uno Deo erat , interposito nomine Christi , caeperant venerari , gratulatur ; sciens illos posse proficere . Id. ad v. ● . c. 1. Non quod aliam habeant Romani fidem , nisi hanc quam omnes Christi Ecclesiae ; sed quod devotio in eis major fit & simplicitas ad credendum . Hieronym . praefat in l. 2. comment . in epist. ad Galat. Tom. 9. §. 12. Concil . Tom. ● . p. 767. Sanctissimas enim Dei Ecclesias , i. e. superiores vestrae , & novellae istius Romae unam esse accipio , illam sedem Apostoli Petri , & istius Augustae civitatis unam esse definio . Joh. Patriarch . ep . inter ep . Hormisd . 35. §. 13. Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsâ sede Petri & in ordine illo Patrum quis cui successit videte . Ipsa est P●tra quam non vincunt superbae Inferorum Portae . D. Aug. in Psalm . C. part . Donat. Tom. 7. col . 9. Venite fratres , si vultis ut inseramini in vite : Dolor est cum vos videmus praecisos it● jacere . Tertul. de praescript . c. 36. Iren. l. 3. c. 3. August . de baptism . c. Donatist . l 3. c. 18. l. 4. c. 12. l. 7. c. 51. Advers . Petilian . l. 2. c 70. De Unitat. Eccles. cap. 20. Ecce Roma , ecce Carthago , ecce aliae & aliae civitates : ●iliae Regum sunt , & delectaverunt Regem suum in honore ipsius ; & ex omnibus fit una quaedam Regin● . Aug. in Ps. 44. p. 282. ed. Froben . Propter unitatem Ecclesiae , una Ecclesia ; propter congregationes fraternas per lo●a , multae sunt Ecclesiae . Id. in Psal. 141. An placet vo●is , ut contra Ecclesias quae membra sunt unius Ecclesi● tot o●be d●ffusae , &c. Id. de Unitat. Eccles. c. 11. Verum etiam illas Ecclesias suas in Scripturis Apostolicis & Canonicis pariter legimus non solum Romanorum , verum etiam Corinthiorum , Galatarum , Ephesiorum , &c. Vt raceam de aliis tam latis atque universis terrarum partibus , in quas ex his Apostolicis laboribus & plantationibus p●rrecta crevit & crescit Ecclesia . Id. c. Crescon . Grammat . lib. 2. c. 37. §. 14. Ibid. Ubi ergo erit proprietas Catholici nominis , cuminde dicta sit Catholica , quod sit rationabilis & ubique diffusa . Optat. l. 2. Cathedram Episcopalem , primam missionem , omnem potestatem , à quâ caeterae deducerentur . Albaspinaeus in Optat. lib. 2. Igitur negare non potes scire te in urbe Rom● Petro primo Cathedram Episcopalem esse collatam in quâ sederit o●nium Apostolorum caput Petrus ; inde & Cephas appellatus est ; in quâ unâ Cathedrâ , unitas ab omn●bus servaretur , nè caeteri Apostoli singulas sibi quisque defenderent : ut jam Schismaticus & peccator esset , qui contra singularem Cathedram , alteram co●locaret . Ergo Cathedra unica quae est prima de dotibus , sedit prior Petrus : cui successit Linus , Lino Clemens , &c. Damaso Siricius hodie , qui noster est Socius : Cum quo totus orbis commercio formatarum , in unâ communionis societate concordat . Vestrae Cathedrae vos originem reddite , qui vobis vul●is sanctam Ecclesiam vindicare . Optatus l. 2. Sed suspicor haec verba ( unde Cephas apellatus est ) esse ineptae alicujus glossae ad marginem temerè ascriptae & deinde abs librariis contextui insertae . Balduin in Optat l. 2. Vbi sedit victor Garbiensis , à vestris jam dudum de Africâ ad paucos erraticos missus , &c. Optatus ibid. Extra septem Ecclesias quicquid soris est alienum est . Id. ib. Tibi unitas displicet ; hoc si crimen putas , argue nos Thessalonicensibus , Corinthiis , Galatis , septem Ecclesiis quae sunt in Asia , communicâsse . Ibid. Percurre Ec●lesias Apostolicas apud qua● ipsae nunc Cathedrae Apostolorum suis locis praesidentur . Tertul. praescript . ad haeret . cap. 36. Euseb. hist. Eccles. l. 7. c. 32. §. 15. Ibid. Ego nullum primum ( praemium for●asse rectius ) nisi Christum sequens , beatitudini tuae , id est Cathedrae Petri communione consocior . Super illam Petram aedific●tam Ecclesiam scio . Quicunque extra hanc domum Agnum comederit , profanus est — Quicunque tecum non colligit , spargit ; hoc est , qui Christi non est , Antichristi est . Hieron . ep . 57. ad Damas. Theodoret. l. 2. c. 8. Tota secularium literarum Schola nihil aliud hypostasin nisi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 novit . Id. ib. Inde nunc mea animae postulans cibum , unde olim Christi vestimenta suscepi . Ib. Ab Arrianorum praesule & Camp●nsibus , novellum à me homine Romano nomen exigitur . Ib. Non super Roman arbitror , nam fieri potest ut Roma degen●ret , sed super illam fidem quam Petrus professus est . Erasmus in Schol. Et si non minus aliis cam laborâsse , Erasmus hic mentiatur . Mar. Victor . Schol. in ep . 57. Vid. Fortunat. & Acacius . Profligato à sobole malâ pa●rimonio , apud vos s●los incorrupta Patrum servatur haer●di●as . — Nunc in Occide●te Sol Justitiae oritur : in Oriente a●tem Lucifer ille , qui ceciderat , super sydera posuit thronam s●um , &c. Ibid. P. 132. n. 6. §. 16. P. 133. Post ista adhuc insuper pseudoepiscop● sibi ab haereticis constituto , navigare audent ad Petri Cathedram , atque ad Ecclesiam Principalem ; unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est , à Schismaticis & prophanis literas ferre , nec cogitare eos esse Romanos ( quorum fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ) ad quos perfidia habere non possit access●m . Cyprian . ep . 55. ad Cornel. n. 16. P. 134. Sect. 3. n. 3 , &c. P. 133. Tertul. de prescript . c. 36. Greg. l. 7. Ind. 1. ep . 32. Ibid. Synes . ep . 67. Ibid. Stepha●us frater noster Haereticorum causam contra Christianos & contra Dei Ecclesiam asserere conatur . Cypr. ad Pompeium per Erasm. Basil. p. 327. P. 134. Attamen scito Romanam fidem Apostolic● voce laudatam ejusmodi praestigias non recipere , etiamsi Angelus aliter annun●iet , quam semel praedicatum est , Pauli authoritate munitam non posse mutari . Hierony . l. 3. Apol. c. Ruff. cap. 4. P. 135. 1 Thes. 1.8 . Non tibi sufficit scandalum Graeciae , nisi illud & Latinorum auribus ingeras . Id. ib. P. 136 , 137. §. 18. Petram opinor per agnominationem nihil aliud , quàm inconcussam & firmissimam discipuli fidem vocavit ; in quâ Ecclesia Christi ita fundata & firmata esset , ut non laberetur , & esset inexpugnabilis inserorum portis , in perpetuum manens . S. Cyril . Alex. Dial. de Trinit . l. 4. p. 278. Paris . A. 1604. P. 138 , 139. P. 16. Ruffin ▪ in Symbol . p. 188 , 189. P. 139. P. 140. §. 1. P. 133. sect . 21. n. ● . P. 135. n. 3. P. 136 , n. 4. P. 142. n. 6. §. 2. P. 131. n. 5. P. 142. Matth. 13.25 . §. 3. P. 142. n. 1. §. 4. P. 143. P. 139. sect 18. n. 5. P. 141. §. 5. §. 6. Cùm infiniti abusus , Schism●ta quoque & haereses , per totum nunc Ch●istianum orbem invalescant ; Ecclesiam Dei legitimâ indigere reformatione , nemini non apertum erit . Petrus de Alliaco lib. de Reform . Eccles. P. 143. Papa potest errare , errore judiciali ; de personali , omnibus notum est . Jac. Almain . de auctorit . Eccles. cap. 10. Quorum unus determinavit judicialiter , Christum & Apostolos nihil habuisse in communi nec in proprio ; alter , oppositum . Id. ib. Lyra in Matth. 16. Cusan . Concord . l. 1. c. 14. Alphons . c. haeres l 1 c 2. Carranz . Controv. 4. Canus loc Com. l. 6 c. ult . De haeres . l. 1. c. 4. P. 144. Cassand . Consult . act . 21. N. 3. §. 7. N. 4. ibid. P. 145. §. 8. P. 145. §. 9. P. 146. §. 10. P. 135. n. 3. P. 147. §. 11. P. 136. n. 4. Ibid. Ibid. P. 148. §. 12. P. 137. Quae major superbia quam ut unus hamo toti Congregatione judicium suum praeserat , tanquam ipse solus Spiritum Dei habeat , S. Bern. Serm. 3. de Resurrect . Ibid. P. 138. P. 149. Ibid. P. 150 , 151. §. 1. P. 143. n. 7. P. 152. §. 2. Praesens sancta Synodus ex quovis salvo-conductu per Imperatorem , reges , & alios feculi principes , haereticis , vel de haeresi diffamatis , putantes eosdem sic à suis erroribus revocare , quocunque se vinculo ▪ obstrinxerint , concesso , nullum fidei Catholicae vel jurisdictioni Ecclesiasticae praejudicium generari , vel impedimentum praest●●i posse , seu debere declarat , quo minus dicto salvo-conductu non obstante , liceat judici competen●i & Ecclesiastico , de hujusmodi personarum erroribus inquirere , & aliàs contra eos debitè procedere , eosdemque punire , quantum justitia suadebit , si suos errores revocare pertinacitêr recusaverint , etiamsi de salvo-conductu confifi ad locum venerint judicii aliás non venturi ; nec sic promittentem cum secerit quod in ipso est , ex aliquo remansisse obligat●m Concil Constant . sess . 19. p. 1075. Tom. 7. Concil . p. 2. ed. Binii . P. 153 n. 2. §. 3. Ibid. Verba salvi-conductus sunt verba fidei 〈◊〉 ▪ & sapiunt naturam pacti : quare , si generalia sint , extenduntur quatenus verba p●tiuntur . Omnes Doctores uno ore asserunt , Generalem promissionem Securitatis veniendi ad judicem seu compare●di in judicio , etiam libertatem recedendi ab●undique complecti . Pet. Premus de Securit . quaest . 6. p. 33 , 36. §. 4. §. 5. P. 154. H●c Sancta Synodus Constantiensis Johannem Hus , attento quòd Ecclesia Dei non habeat ultra quid gerere valeat , judicio seculari relinquere , & ipsum curiae seculari relinquendum sore decernit , Concil . Constant. sess . 15. p. 1056. §. 6. Fides Haereticis data servanda non est , sicut nec Tyrannis , Piratis , & caeteris publicis praedonibus . Simanca Instit. Cathol . tit . 46. sect . 51. Jures igitur Haretici quid●m gravissimo Concilii Constantiensis judicio , legitimâ flaminâ concremati sunt , quamvis promissa illis securitas faiss●t . Instit. tit . 46. sect . 52. P. 155. Si Ty●annis , Piratis , & caete●is praedonibus fides servanda non est , qui corpus occidunt ; longe m●nus haereticis pertinacibus , qui occidunt animas . Id. ib. Quamobrem fides illis data , etiam juramen●o firmata , contra publicum bonum , contra salutem animarum , contra jura divina & humana , nullo modo servanda . Ib. Scribit etiam Salomonius in d. l. 2. exact . de orig . juris , & refert Petrus laca . l. 1. epit . delict . c. 37. in fin . Ita observatum fuisse contra haereticos vocatos in Concilio Constantiensi sub salvo-conductu , qui tamen contra datam fidem ne●ati fuerunt . Non ergo salvo-conductui fidere d●buit . D. Scipio . Menochius . lib. 1 Concil . 100. n. 191. Quod verò scribit Placa d. c. 37. in fin . haereticis datam fidem servandam non esse , intelligo um data fides est ad detrimentum fidei Catholicae . Id Concil . 100. n. 219. Ita enim loquitur Conradus Brunus in tract . de haere● . c. 14. l 3. cum scribit , Non licere pacisci cum haereticis , ut liberè possent in damnatâ eorum sectâ vivere . n. 220. Quod si ob●ic●atur , Concilium Constantiense non observâsse sa●vos-conductos concessos ab Imperatoribus & Regibus ; facile erit respondere , Non licuisse illis Imperatoribus & Regibus , concedere tutos reddere haereticos ; tum quia inferior non potest salv●m-conductum concedere damnato à majori , tum etiam quia Im●eratorum & Regum est haereticos expugnare , non autem securos & tutos reddere ; quemadmodum abund● tradit Con. rad . Brunus . l. 3. de haeret . c. 15. Rectè à Concilio salvi-conductus illi annullati fuerunt . n. 227 , 128. Nunquam patiaris ullâ te ratione ad ea quae promisisti praestanda teneri ; quia juramentum non debet esse vinculum iniquitatis . Hosius Cardinal . epistol . 193 , 202 , 220. §. 7. Scilicet has artes nuper gens gnara nocendi Exitio invexit , Gallia , nata tuo . Hesperiae suscis gens emissaria ab oris Fucum affectatâ quae gravitate tegit , Nata Magistratum convell●re , nata Ministris Substrahere obsequium , Praesulibusque suum : Geryonae qua dum placeat , faveatque trifauci , Terrarum reliquos non facit assis heros . Et coelo facinus dignum putat , omnia saevi In Regis longas tradere sceptra manus . Quae disciplinam morum , quae Gallica venit , Exuto , legum solvere jura , metu , Et vileis regnantum anima● , ipsosque necandos Horrendâ Reges proditione docet ; Servandamque fidem negat , argutisque cavillis Detorquet magni jussa severa Dei. Nos patimur segnes , lentique sedemus ad iram Et pietas ipsâ religione perit ▪ Protinus Induciae violantur patre Quiritum Auctore , & Martis nuncius urbe venit . Nos juvat antiquo vitam producere ritu , Nos juvat in priscâ simplicitate mori . Jac. Aug. Thuanus Eleg. in Parricidas . Vniversa Theologorum Schola tenet , & est certum ac de fide , Quemcunque principem Christianum , si à Catholicâ Romanâ Religione manifestè deflexerit , & alios avocare voluerit , excidere statim omni potestate , & dignitate ex ipsá vi juris divini & humani : hocque & ante sententiam Pontificis & Judicis contra ipsum prolatam ; & subditos quoscunque liberos esse ab omni juramenti obligatione , quod de obedientiâ praestitissent , posseque & debere hujusmodi hominem tanquam Apostatam & haereticum ex dominatu ejicere , nè alios insiciat . Andreas Philopator Resp. ad edict . Regin . Angl. p. 149. n. 157. P. 156. §. 8. P. 157. P. 185. §. 1. P. 146. sect . 22. P. 185. n. 1. §. 2. P. 159. §. 3. P. 158 n. 1. §. 4. P. 146. n. 22. P. 159. Erasm. in Mat. 6.7 . Hodie videmus Sacerdotes , nihil dicam qualibus sed certè nimium prolixis precibus , hisque praescriptis , aliquoties ineptis ac ridiculis , nè dicam impiis , oneratos . Erasm. in Mat. 6.7 . Ad haec qui modestè pii sunt taciti secum ingemiscunt : qui populi malis aluntur , & quorum interest Christi gregem , quem ille suo sanguine liberum reddidit , quam maximè servum esse & ebnoxium , adeò non reclamant ut modis omnibus exaggerent . Accedunt iis qui vel ambiunt praemium aliquod obsequii vel timent poenam libertatis . Ita dum nemo succurrit , re● p●●●atim eò prolabitur ut penè nihil jam pudeat . Id. in Mat. 11.30 . P. 160. §. 5. P. 147. n. 2. P. 160. P. 149. sect . 24. Hos. 4.15 . P. 160. n. 2. Hos. 6.4.7 . Hos. 12.2 . Hos. 11.12 . 2 King 18.4 . Hos. 1.1 . 2 King. 15.4 . v. 35. 2 King. 16.3 , 4 2 King. 16.10 , 11. 2 King. 17.19 . Ibid. P. 161 : Ibid. P. 162. §. 6. P. 150. n. 2. P. 162 ▪ n. 3. P. 164. P. 163. §. 7. Ibid. §. 8. §. 9. P. 164. n. 6. P. 151. n. 3. §. 10. P. 152. n. 4. P. 165. P. 152. n. 5. P. 166. n. 8. §. 11. P. 153. P. 167. Ibid. Ibid. P. 154. Council . Toles ▪ 4. Can. 3. P. 168. §. 12. Ibid. P. 155. The institution of a Christian man. A. 1534. In Synodo Lond●n . Sess. 8. die Veneris Jan. An. 1562. P. 168. n. 9. Ibid. P. 169. A●t 19. §. 13. 168 , 169. White and Watson . §. 14. P. 196. P. 170. P. 156. n. 6. Ibid. §. 1. Chap. 14. P. 171 , 172. P. 173. P. 157. ad p. 181. §. 2. P. 166. P. 182. n. 1. §. 3. P. 167. P. 183. Arbitramur — adjuvante misericordiā Domini nostri Jesu Christi — Authoritati Sanctitati● tuae de sanctarum Scripturarum Authoritate depromptae , facilius eos qui tam perversa & perniciosa sentiunt , esse cessur●s . Aug. ep . 92. §. 4. P. 184. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret. hist. Eccles. l. 1. c. 7. ed. Sirmond . 1642. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Gelas. Acta Concil . Nicen. lib. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Niceph. Ecclesiast . hist. l 8. c 19. Quanquam Graci omnes asserant et tu●antur , Nicaeni Concilii Canones viginti tantum ●uisse , &c. Bin not . in Concil . Nicaen p 366.10.1 . Ruffin . Ecclesiast . hist. lib. 1. cap. 5. Viginti tantum capitula Nicanae Synodi in Sanctâ Romanâ Ecclesiâ haberi . Gratian ▪ distinct . 16. c. 20. Deinde etiam 20. capitulis Nicani Concilii recitatis , communi decreto statuerunt capitula 37. ( sive 39. ) quae subsequuntur . Vid. Justell . not . in Cod. Eccles. African . p. 14. Quod non nisi viginti capitula quae habemus in Nicaeno Concilio fuerunt constituta . c. 21. apud Justell . ibid. Codex Can. Eccles. Afric ; p : 58. Codex Canon . p. 363. Id. p 360. Turrian . praef . in Canon . Arab. Consultatio de Controvers . inter Paul. 5 : & Rempub. Venet. apud Goldast . Monarch . Tom. 3. p. 444. Quoniam hac ignorâsse majores visi sunt , quando ●borta controversia in Ecclesiâ African● , de iis mentio necessaria incubuisset ; haec libentius aliis disserenda relinquemus . Baron . ad . An. 325. parag . 108. Quamobrem quod in epistol● quâdam Marci nomine 70. recenseantur . — quodque Tur●ianus profiteatur 80. inventos Arabicá linguá Scriptos , Latinitate se donâsse — quoniam haec omnia scripta quibus ingens ille numerus Canonum stabilitur , prorsus incertae vel potius nullius sunt fidei ; nec aliquis unquam probatus antiquitatis auctor amplius quam 20. Canones Nicenae Synodi agnovisse reperiatur , ceteros ab aliis assertos libentius rejicimus . Spondan . Epitom . Baron . ad A. 325. n. 42. §. 5. P. 184. Nicol. Pap. ●p . ad Michael . Imperat ▪ Zozom . l. 3. c. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Concil . Nicen. Can. 6. Codex Theodos. de Episcop . l. 23. Qui mos est causarum civilium , iidem in negotiis Ecclesiasticis obtine●di sunt , ut , si qua sunt — ad religionis observantiam pertinentia , locis suis & à suae dioec●s●os Synodis audiantur . §. 5. Quarta igitur & vera expositio est , Alexandrinum debere gubernare illas provincias , quia Romanus Episcopus ita consuevit , ●d est , quia Romanus Episcopus ante omnem Co●ciliorum definitionem consuevit pe●mittere Episc●po Alexandrino regimea Aegypti , Libyae & Pentapolis . Bellarm. de Rom. ont , l. 2. c ▪ 13. Theodoret. l. 1. c 9. Syncs . ep . ad Theophil . Alexand. Cùm vera hujus instituti ratio in eo consistat , quòd cum Mediolanum esset caput Dioeces●os Italicae , ut constat ex Concilio Aquileiensi , ordinatio Metropolitae Aquileie●sis ad Episcopum Mediolanensem optimo jure pertinebat ; Primatis verò Mediolanensis ordinatio ad Aquileiensem Episcopum , quòd primus esset inter Metropolitanos Synodi Generalis Dioeceseos Italicae . Petrus de Marcâ de Concord . Sacerdot . & Imp. l. 6. c. 4. sect . 7. Ibid. sect . 8. §. 6. Concil Ephes. act . 7. part . ● . p. 424. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Concil . Ephes. Can 8. in edit . verò Binii ante Canones habetur . Tom. 2. Concil . Part. 2. Act. 7. p. 426. Insula autem Britanniae gavisa est olim privilegio Cyprio ut nullius Patriarchae legibus subderetur . Hoc autem privilegium et si abolitum olim fuit bellorum tumultibus & vi , tamen cum tempore Henrici 8. totius regni consensu fuerit repetitum , & ab eo tempore pacificè praescriptum : videtur pacis ergô retineri debere , sine dispendio Catholicism● , & absque Schismatis ullius notâ ▪ Barns Catholico-Romanus Pacificus MS. sect . 3. Quod ad Patriarchas attinet , responderi potest , Confirmationem illam non esse signum jurisdictionis , sed tantum susceptionis in communionem , & testimonium quo conslabat , summum Pontificem consentire consecratio●● jam peractae . Petrus de Marcâ de Concord . c. Sacerdot . & Imper. l 6. c 5. sect . 2. Factus est autem Cora●lius Episcopus de Dei & Ch●isti ejus judicio , de Cle●icorum pen● omnium testimonio , de plebis quae tan● affu●t suffragio , & de Sacerdotum a●liquorum & bono●um ●irorum Coll●gio — Cum Fabiani ●ocus vacaret , quo occupato de Dei voluntare & omnium nostrûm consentione Firmato . Cyprian . ep . 52. p. 75. ed. Rigalt . Quippe usu receptum erat per illas tempestates , ut Patriarchae , & ipse etiam Romanus Pontifex recens electus , literas de suâ ordinatione mitterent ; quibus addebatur prefessio fidei in Synodicis eorum Epistolis conscripta . Petrus de Marcâ . ib. Ut per totum mundum una nobis sit unius Communionis integr●tas , in quâ societatem tuae dilectionis amplectimur , & gestorum quae sumpsim●s serien● , necessariis munitam subscription●bus approbamus . Leo 1. ep . 38. Theodoret. l. 5. c. 13. §. 8. P. 184. De Concord . l 7. c. 1. sect ▪ 6. Au● nunquam omnino , aut certè vix , horum aliquis sine consensu Romani Pontificis reperitu● ejectus . Nicol. 1. epist. 8. Michael . Imp. Tom. 6. Concil . p. 506. Tom. 2. Concis . p. 685. L. 7. c. 4. sect . 6. §. 9. In Romana Ecclesiâ semper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit Principatus . S. Aug. Epist. 162. P. 168. P. 184. P. 169. Pergant ad Fratres & Collegas nostros transmarinarum Ecclesiarum Episcopos . S. Aug. Ep 162. An forte non debuit Romanae Ecclesiae Melciades Episcopus cum Collegis transmarinis Episcopis illud sibi usurpare judicium quod ab Afris Septuaginta , ubi Primas Tigisitanus praesedit , fuerit terminatum . Quid quod nec ipse usurpaverit ? Rogatus quippe Imperator , Judices misit Episcopos , qui cum eo seder●nt , & de totâ illâ causâ , quod justum videretur , statuerent . S. Aug. ib. Ad cujus curam , de quâ rationem Deo redditurus est , res illa maximè pertinebat . Id. ib. Aug. ep . 162. P. 185. P. 186. §. 10. Euseb. l. 10. c. 5. P. 187. §. 11. Valesius de Schismate Donatist . cap. 11. Ait quidam , Non debuit Episcopus Procons●lari judicio purgari : quasi verò ipse sibi hoc comparaverit , ac non Imperator ita quaeri jusserit , ad cujus curam de quâ rationem Deo redditurus esset , res illa maximè pertinebat . Augustin . ep . 162. §. 12. P. 170. ●od . l. 1. Tit. 4. l. 29. Authent . Collat. 9 ti● 15. c. 22. P. 188. n. 4. Concil . Afric . Can 101. Epist. ad Bonifac . Item placuit ut Presbyteri , diaconi , vel caeteri inferiores Clerici , in causis quas habuerint , si de judiciis episcoporum suorum questi fuerint , vicini episcopi , eos cum consensu episcopi sui audiant , & inter eos definiant , adhibiti ab eis episcopi : quod si & ab iis provocandum putaverint , non provocent ad transmarina judicia ; sed ad primites suarum provinciarum , aut ad Universale Concilium ; Sicut de Episcopis saepe constitutum est . Ad transmarina autem qui putaverit appellandum , à nullo intra Africam ad Communionem suscipiatur , Codex Canon . Eccles African . Can. 28. §. 13. De Concord . Sacerdot . & Imp. l. 7. c. 13. sect . 6 , 7 , 9. §. 14. Ut Romam liceat Episcopis provocare & ut Clericorum causae apud suarum provinciarum episcopos finiant●r , jam priore anno etiam literis nostris ad eundem ven●rabilis memoriae Zosimum episcopum datis , insinuari curavimu● , &c. Ut ea servare sine ullâ ejus injuriâ paulisper sinerem●s , usque ad exquisitionem statutorum Concilii Niceni . Praesato itaque debitae Salutationis officio , Impendio deprecamur , ut deinceps ad vestras aures hinc venientes non faciliùs admittatis , nec à nobis excommunicatis in communionem ultrà velitis excipere ; quia hoc etiam Nicaeno Concilio definitum facilè advertet Venerabilitas tua . Nam et si de inferioribus Cleric●s vel de Laicis videtur ibi praecaveri , quanto magis hoc de episcopis voluit observari , nè in suá provinciâ à communione suspensi à tuâ Sanctitate praeproperè , vel indebitè videantur communioni restitui . Presbyterorum quoque & sequentium Clericorum improbaref●gia , sicut te dignum est , ●epellat sanctitas tua , quia & nullâ Patrum definitione hoc ecclesiae derogatum est Africanae , & decre●● Nicena sive inferioris gradus Ciericos sive ipsos episcopos suis Metropolitanis apertissimè commisérunt . Prudentissimè enim justissimeque vidêrunt , qu● cunque negotia in suis locis , ubi o●●a sunt , finicuda ; nec unicuique provinciae gratiam Sancti Spiritus defuturam : quae aequitas à Christi Sacerdotibus , & prudentèr videatur , & constantissimè teneatur : maximè quia unicuique concessum est , si jud●c●o offensus suerit cognitorum , ad Concilia suae provinciae , vel etiam Universale provocare . Nisi forte quisquam est qui credat , unicuilib●t posse Deum nostrum examinis inspirare justitiam ; & innumerabilibus co●gregatis in Concili●● Sacerdotibus denegare . Aut quomodo ipsum transmarinum judicium ratum erit , ad quod testium necessariae personae vel propter sexus , vel pro●ter senectutis infirmitatem , vel multis aliis impedimentis adduci non poterunt ? Nam ut aliqui tanquam à tu● sanctitatis latere mittantur , nullâ invenimus Patrum Synodo constitutum . Quia illud quod pridem per eundem cocpiscopu● Faustinum tanquam ex parte Niceni Concilii exinde transmisistis , in Conci●iis verioribus qua accipiuntur Ni●●ni , à S. Cyrill● coepiscopo nostro Alexandrinae Ecclesiae , & à venerabili Attico Constantinopolitano Antistite , ex authentico missis , quae etiam ante hoc per Innocentium Presbyterum & Marcellum Subdiaconum , per quos ad nos abiis directa sunt , venerabilis memoriae Bonifacio episcop● dec●ssori vestro à nobis transmissa sunt , in quibus tale aliquid non potuimus invenire . Executores etiam Clericos vestros quibusque petentibus nolite mittere , nè ●umosum typhum seculi in Ecclesiam Christi quae lucem simplicitatis & humilitatis d●●m , Deum videre cupientibus praefert , videamur inducere . Nam de fratre nostro Faustino ( amoto jam , pro suis nefandi● n●quit●is , de Christi Ecclesiâ dolendo Apiario ) securi sumus , quod cum probitate ac moderatione tuae sanctitatis , salvâ fraternâ charitate ulterius Africa minimè patiatur . Concil . Carthag . Epist. ad Caelestinum . §. 15. Greg. l. 11. Indict ▪ 6. ep . 54 P. 171. P. 188. P. 189. Ibid. n. 5. Bed. l. 5. c. 20. Bramhall Just. Vindication . c. 4. p. 60. Spelman . Concil . An. 705. §. 16. Bed l. 1. c. 29 ▪ P. 190. §. 17. P. 172. P. 191. Leo. ep . 87. c. 2. Greg. l. 1 ep . 75 §. 18. P. 175. n. 12 ▪ P. 192. P. 177. P. 193. §. 19. P. 193. n. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Concil . Sardic . c. 3. De Concord . sacerd . & Imp. l. 7. c. 3. sect . 6 , 7 , &c. l. 7. c. 4. sect . 2. §. 20. Concord Cathol . l. 2. c. 15 Aug ep . 163. Contra Cresc . l. 3. c. 34. l. 4. c. 44. P. 195 ▪ §. 1 P. 178. L. 4. ep . 78. P. 196. n. 1 , ● §. 2. Euseb. l. 5. cap. 24. Not. in l. Euseb. l. 4. c. 25 Cyprian . ep . 68 Cypr. ep . 67. Nazian . Orat. 18. p. 281. Athanas. Ap. ad Imp. Const. p. 786. Tom 1. Nazianz. Orat. 21. p. 392. Basil. ep . 52. Tom. 3. p. 79. Chrysost. Tom. 5. p. 631. ed Savil. Hieron . ep . 71. Ruffin . l. 11. c. 27 , 30 , 31. Theodoret. l. 5. c. 4. Hieron . ep . 60 §. 3. Not. in Hist. August . p. 306 Amm. Marcel . l. 14. l. 16. Spartian . in Severo . Lamprid. in Alex. Sev. Marcel . l. 18. Justel . Not. in Cod. Afric . Can. 58. Cod. Eccles. Uni Can. 206. & ibi Justel . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nazianzen . 21. p. 377. Tu quidem ut homo Dei & Apostolicâ ●rnatus gratiâ curam omnium Ecclesiarum sustines . Apud Hieronym . ad Pammach . To. 2. ep . 61. c. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basil. ep . 50. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret . haeret . fabul . l. 4. c. 12. p. 245. To. ● . oper . §. 4. P. 196. Concil . Chalced. Act. 3. part 3. p. 243. Bin. not . in Chalced. Con. Tom. 3. Concil . p. 562. Et harum rerum ignari Andabatae nostri , non advertunt , cum Occidentales Patres , Pontifices Romanos vocant , universalis Ecclesiae Episcopos , id more suarum Ecclesiarum facere , & eâ notione , non quod putent totius orbis universalis , universales esse Episcopos , sed eâdem quâ Constantinopolitanus , Alexandrinus , Antiochenus , Hierosolymitanus , dicuntur Universales : aut ut universales Ecclesiarum quae sunt sub eorum Patriarchatu : aut quod in Conciliis Oecumenicis toti Ecclesiae praesint . Vigorius Comment . ad Resp. Synodal . Concil . Basil. p. 36. Greg. l. 11. ep . 36. Ind. 6. §. 5. Itaque illa demum eis videntur edicta & concilia quae in rem suam faciunt , reliqua non pluris aestimanda , quam conventum muliercularum in textrinâ vel thermis . Lud. Vives in Aug. de Civit. Dei I. 20. cap. 26. Bin. not . in Chalced. Con● p. 561. P. 196. n. 2. §. 6. P. 197. n. 3. N. 4. Greg. ep . l. 4. ep . 32. Greg. l. 4. ep . 36 Ibid. Greg. ep . l. 4. ep . 34. Pelag. 2. ep . 8. apud Bin. To. 4 ▪ Concil . Evagr. hist. l. 6. c. 7. §. 7. Ibid. L. 4. ep . 34. Triste mihi aliquid sere●issimus Dominus innuit , quòd non eum corripuit qui superbit , sed me magis ab intentione med declinare studuit . Greg. l. 4. ep . 34. Greg. l. 6. ep 30. De quâ re mihi in suis jussionibus pietas praecepit dicens , ut pro appellatione frivoli nominis inter nos scandalum generari non debeat . Greg. ibid. Sed rogo ut imperiatis pietas penset , quia alia sunt frivola valdè innoxia , alia valdè nociva . Ibid. Nunquid ego hâc in re pessime Domine propriam causam desendo ? nunquid specialem injuriam vindico ? Id. l. 4. ep . 32. P. 199. n. 5. §. 6. Tu quid Christo universalis sc. Ecclesiae capiti , in extremi judicii examine dicturus es , qui cuncta ejus membra tibimet conaris universalis appellatione supponere . Greg. l. 4. ep . 38. Ad culmen conatus est singularitatis cr●mpere , ut & nulli subesse , & solus omnibus praeesse videretur . Id. ib. Quid enim fratres tui omnes universalis Ecclesiae Episcopi , nisi astra coeli sunt ? Ib. Certè Petrus Apostolus primum membrum sanctae & universalis Ecclesiae est . Paulus , Andreas , Johannes , quid aliud quam singularium sunt plebum capita ? Et tamen sub uno capite omnes sunt membra Ecclesiae . Ibid. Vestra autem Sanctitas agnoscat , quantum apud se tumeat , quae illo nomine vocari appetit , quo vocari nullus praesumpsit , qui veraciter sanctus fuit . Ibid. §. 9. Bellarm. de Pontif. l. 4. cap. 24. Hist. Concil . Trid. l 7. p. 611 Greg. l. 4. ep . 34. l. 7. ep . 69. Consentive in hoc scelesto vocabulò , est fidem perdere . Greg. l. 4. ep . 39. Absit à cordibus Christianorum nomen istud blasphemiae , in quo omnium Sacerdotum honor adimitur dum ab uno sibi dementèr arrogatur . l. 4. ep . 32. Greg. l. 4 : ep . 32 , 34 , 38 , 39. l. 6. ep . 2.34 . §. 10. P. 179. P. 200. §. 11. P. 181. n. 13. P. 201. n. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. Euseb. l. 5. c. 24 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Euseb. ibid. Vales. not . in Euseb. l. 5. c. 24 , Euseb. ibid. Socrat. l. 5. c. 2● Africani Antistites Vigilium Romanum Episcopam damnatorem trium capitulorum Synodalitèr à Catholic● communione , reservat● ei poenitentiae loco , recludunt . Victor Tununens . Chronic. p. 10. §. 12. P. 201. Ad hanc Ecclesiam propter potentiorem principalitatem , necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam , i. e. eo● qui sunt undique fideles : In quâ semper ab ●is qui sunt undique , conservata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio . Iren. l. 3. c. 3. De Finib . l. 2. v. Hen ▪ Steph. Lexicon Ciceron . p. 55. Herod . hist. l. 1. p. 18. Concil . Antioch . Can. 9. Leo Sermon . de S. Petro & Paulo . P. 202. §. 13. P. 203· §. 14. P. 183. Apud Alexandriam ut in Urbe Romā , vetusta consuetudo servetur , ut ille Aegypti ut hic Suburbicariarum Ecclesiarum solicitudinem gerat . Ruffin . Eccles. hist. l. 1. c ▪ 6. P. 203. n. 7. Cod. Theodos . l. 11. tit . 1. c 9. tit . 16. c. 12. tit . 28.12 Adventor . p. 2. de Eccles. suburbic . c. 1. De primatu Ecclesiae Romana & aliarum civitatum Episcopis . Antiqui moris est , ut Episcopus Urbis Romae habeat Principatum ; ut Suburbicaria loca , & omnem Provinciam suam sollicitudine gubernet . Codex Vaticanus apud Sirmond . de Region . & Eccles. Suburb . De Concordi● Sacerdot . & Imp. l. 1. c. 7. sect . 6. §. 15. P. 185. n. 14. P. 204. n. 9. Vigorius Com. in ep . Synod . Concil . Basil. c. 7. p. 63. P. 205. Epiph. haeres . 78. p. 1039. Haeres . 29. p. 119. §. 16. P. 187. n. 15. P. 206. Reynolds against Hart. c. 5. div . 3. Hieronym . l. 1. Jovin . c. 14. §. 1. §. 2. P. 208. Bell de Pontif. l. 4. c. 3. P. 209 , §. 3. P. 210. Comment . in ep . Synod Concil . Basil. c. 7. sect . 3. Tabulae suffr . ●ab . 10. p. 111. Tabul . suffrag . p. 145. §. 4. P. 211. P. 191. Vigor . p. 61. John. 20.21 . Gal. 2 7. Acts 8.14 . Mark 6.16 . Acts 20.28 . §. 5. P. 191. Ibid. P. 212. Philopator . sect . 157. p. 149. De visib . Monarch . l. 2 , c. 4. Nebrissens . de bello Navarr . l. 1. c. 6. §. 6. P. 191. n. 18. P. 212. N. 6. N. 8. N. 57. §. 7. P. 198. n. 6. P. 218. 2 Sam. 15.2 . §. 8. P. 199. n. 7. P. 200. P. 219. §. 9. P. 220. §. 10. Eph. 4 12. §. 11. P. 201. P. 220. Baron Annal. A.D. 142. s. 6. Bin. Concil . T● . 1. p. 74. Baron . An. 865. sect . 5.8 . Concil . Antioch . can . 7 , 8. Aug. Epist. 163. Optat. l. 2 , §. 12. P. 221. P. 220. Gerson de Auferibilitate Papae Consider . 10 Spalat . de Rep. Eccles. Tom. 1. l. 4. c. 7. sect . 5. §. 13. P. 222. Concil . Rom. 3. sub Symmacho . To. 3. p. 688. §. 14. P. 200. Optat. l. 3. P. 223. P. 224. P. 202. P. 224. §. 15. P. 225 , 227. P. 205. P. 226. P. 227. P. 211. §. 1. Hist. Council of Trent . l. 1. p. 132. P. 229. P. 213. §. 2. P. 230. Causanus de Concord . Cath. l. 2. c. 6. §. 3. P. 230 , 231. §. 4. P. 231. Caesar Aquilinus de tribus historicis Concilii Trident. P. 49 , 51. §. 5. Ibid. §. 6. Ibid. Baron . A. D. 305. sect . 6. Photius in Biblioth . Cod. 88. p. 21. Phot. de 7. Synod . &c. p. 163 Euseb. de vit ● Const. l. 3. c. 7. Theod. hist. Eccles . l. 1. c. 6. Sozom. l. 1. c. 16. Nicephor . l. 8. c. 14. §. 7. P. 232. Theodoret. Eccles . hist. l. 5. , c. 8. 9. Socrat. l. 5. cap. 8. Sozomen . l. 7. c. 12. Baron . Ann. 382. sect . 17. Annal. Ann. 381. sect . 17. A. D. 382. sect . 4 , &c. Tom. 1. Concil . p. 686. Bellarm. de Concil . l. 1. c 5. Perrons R●ply . l. 1. cap. 34. Bin. Tom. 1. Concil . p. 665. Theod. hist. Eccles . l. 5. c. 9. A D. 382. sect . 9. Ann. 381. sect . 80. Tom. 1. Concil . p. 682. §. 8. P. 232. Ann. 430. sect . 23 , 24. §. 9. Ibid. Review of the Council of Trent . l. 1. c. 7. §. 10. P. 233. De Concil . l. 1. c. 22. Greg. ep . l. 10. c. 31. De Repub. Eccles. Tom. 1. l. 4. c. 7. sect . 52. Tom. 2. l. 6. c. 7. n. 102. Protestatio adversus Concil . Trident. p. 22. A.D. 1563. Ibid. §. 11. Ibid. P. 234. §. 12. P. 215. Ibid. Recogniti . p. 46. Tom. 1. Concil . p. 667. Hist. Council of Trent . l. 8. p. 804. §. 13. Ibid. n. 4. P. 230. n. 2. P. 216. P. 235. Hist. l. 1. c. 8. §. 14. P. 218. P. 236. P. 220. P. 237. Tom. 1. Conc. p. 449. Ibid. P. 222. Ibid. n. 8. Hist. Council of Trent . l. 7. p. 683. §. 15. P. 238. Thuan. hist : l. 114. ad A. 1595. Thom. à Jesu de Convers. omn. gent. l. 7. c. 6. p. 364. Hottinger . Archaiolog . Orie●t . cap. 3. p. 69. Apud Chytrae . de statu Eccl. Orient . p. 122. Primum Patriar . Resp. p. 1.9 . Epist. Remons● . p. 412. Notes for div A61588-e319100 §. 1. §. 2. P. 222. P. 240. P. 214. §. 3. §. 4. De Concil . l. 2. ● . 7. §. 5. P. 228 sect . 33. P. 245. Hierarch . Eccles . l. 6. . c. 1. §. 6 ▪ P. 230. Ibid. P. 254. P. 246. P. 239. §. 7. Hierarch . Eccles . l. 6. c. 4. §. 8. Canus loc . Theol. l. 5. c. 5 ▪ Bellarm. de Concil . l. 2. c. 9. Aeneas Sylv. de gest Concil . Basil. l. 1. De Concil . l. 2. c. 11. §. 9. P. 234. P. 252 , 252. §. 10. P. 237. P. 253. P. 254. P. 249. §. 11. P. 240. Quis autem nesciat sanctam Scripturam canonicam , tam veteris quam novi Testamenti certis suis terminis contineri , eamque omnibus posterioribus Episcoporum literis ita praeponi , ut de illâ omni o dubitari & disceptari non possit , utrum verum , vel utrum rectum sit , quicquid in eá scriptum esse constiterit ? Episcoporum autem literas quae post confirmatum Canonem vel scriptae sunt vel scribuntur , & per sermonem forte sapientiorem , cujustibet in eâ re peritioris , & per aliorum Episcoporum graviorem autoritatem , doctiorumque prudentiam , & per Concilia licere reprehendi , si quid in eis forte à veritate deviatum est . Et ipsa Concilia quae p●r singulas regiones vel provincias fiunt , plenariorum Conciliorum autoritati , quae fiunt ex universo o be Christiano , sine ull●s ambag●bus cedere , ipsaque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari , cum aliquo experimento verum aperitur quod clausum erat , & cognos●itur q●od latebat , sine ullo typho sacrilegae superbi● , sine ullâ inflatâ cervice arrog●n●iae , sine ullâ contentione livid● invidi● , cum sanctá humilitate , cum pace Catholic● , cum cha●itate Christianâ . August . l. 2. de b●pt . c. Donatist . c. 3. P. 255. Aug. ep . 19. ad Hierony●um c. Crescon . Grammat l. 2. c. 31. De Nat. & Gratiâ c. 61. c. Faustum l. 11. c. 5. Epistol . 112. §. 12. P. 256. P. 241. P. 257. P. 252. C. Faustum ▪ l. 20. c. 21. Ibid. P. 244. §. 13. P. 248. P. 263. Ib●d . §. 14. P. 249. P. 264. §. 15. Ibid. Canus l. 5. c. 5. §. 16. P. 251. P. 265. §. 1. P. 245. P. 223. P. 224. P. 226. P. 227. P. 242. §. 2. §. 3. §. 4. §. 5. P. 242 , &c. P. 260 , &c. §. 6. P. 262. §. 6. P. 253. P. 254. P. 256. P. 257. P. 266. Aug. de Agone Chr●stiano . cap. 30. De Pontif. l. 1. c. 12. Aug in Psal. 108. in Johan . tr . 124 Serm. 30. de divers . Retract . l. 1. c. 21. §. 7. P. 267. P. 268. P. 269. Ibid. §. 8. P. 258. P. 269. P. 270. P. 259. §. 9. P. 260. P. 272. P. 261. P. 273. P. 273. §. 10. P. 274 , 275. P. 261. §. 11. P. 262. P. 276. Occham Dialog . p. 1. l. 5. cap. 25 , 29 , 31. Cameracensis quaest . Vesp. art . 3. ad liter . O. & P. Cusan . Concord . Cathol . l. 2. c. 3. Antonin . Summ. Summarum . p. 3. Tit. 23. c. 2. sect . 6. Panormitan . decret . p. 1. l. 1. Tit : de elect . cap. significasti . Clemangis disput . de Concil . Gener. Mirandula . de fide & ordine credend . Theorem . 4. &c. Bellarmin . de Concil . l. 2. c. 13. De Concil . l. 2. c. 14. C. 16. §. 12. L 2. de Concil . c. 11. P. 266. De Pontif. Rom l. 4. c. 3. Ibid. De Rom Pont. l. 4. c. 3. De Concil . l. 1. c. 10. Ibid c. 11. Journal of Mr de Saint Amour . part 3. chap. 4 p 78. Journal . part 3. ch . 12 p 120 P. 277. Ibid. §. 13. P. 278. P. 263. Ibid. P. 264. Ambros. l. 10. ep . 83. P. 280. Action . 8. Synod . 6. Canus . l. 6. cap. ult . P. 267. Ibid. Ibid. Conci● Chalced. part . 2. Act. 2. p. 2●8 . Concil . Ephes. p. 2. Act. 3. pag. 330. P. 281. §. 1. P. 281. P. 271. P. 282. §. ● . Ibid ; De Concil . l. 2. c. 9. §. 3. P. 283. Alexand. Alensis . part 4. quaest . 8. memb . 3. art . 1. sect . 1. Reo . sine praejudicio , &c. Bonaventur . l. 4. dist 6. art . 2. quaest . 1. ad fin §. 4. P. 284. §. 5. P. 284 , &c. P. 273. P. 285. §. 6. P. 258. De Concil . l. 2. c. 11. §. 7. P. 257. P. 287. Scotus in 4. sent . dist . 11. q 3. Gabr. Biel in Canon . Missae . lect . 40. Fisher contr . captivit . Babyl . c. 9. p. 99. Cajetan . in 3. Qu. 75. A. 1. Petrus de Alliaco in 4. sent q 6. Tonstall de verit . corp . Christi . &c. p. 46. Erasmus in 1 Cor. 7. Ferus in Matth. 26. Apud Episcop . Elicus . resp . ad Apol. Cardinal . Bollarm cap. 1 p. 7. Suarez in 3. disp . 50. sect . 3. Barns Catholico Romanus Pacificus M S. s. 7. liter . C. P. 288. Pa●t 1 ch . 5. sect . 7. §. 8. Serm de Coen● Domini . De amiss . grat . l 6. c. 2. James of the Fathers . p. 12. Albertinus de Eucharist . Sacramento l. 2. p. 381. Sed in cogitation bus huj●smodi , caro & sanguis no● prodest quidquam ; quia sicut ipse m●gister exposuit , verba haec spiritus & vita sunt : nec carnalis sensus ad intellectum ●antae profunditatis p●netrat , nisi fides accedat . Auctor de Coenâ Domini . sect . 4. Esus igitur carnis hujus q●aedam aviditas est , & quoddam desiderium manendi in ipso per quod sic imprimimus , & eliquamus in nobis dulcedinem charitatis , ut haereat palato & visceribus sapor dilectionis infusus , penetrans & imbuens omnes animae corporisque recessus . Id. sect . 9. Vt sciremus quod mansio nostra in ipso sit manducatio , & potus quasi quaedam incorporatio , subjectis obsequiis , voluntatibus junctis , affectibus unitis . Id. ib. Et non tam corporali quam spirituali transitione Christo nos uniri . Sect 4. Haec quoties agimus , non dentes ad mordendum acuimus , sed fide sincerâ panem sanctum frangimus & partimur . Id. sect . 18. Sed immortalitatis alimonia , datur , à communibus cibis differens , corporalis substantiae retinens speciem , sed virtutis divinae invisibili efficientiâ probans adesse praesentiam . Id. f. 2. Id. sect . 6. Cod. Theod. de eursu publ . & leg . 67. Arcad l. ult . De munerib . & honor . Cassiod . l. 12. Vegetius de remilit . l. 3. c. 3. Ambros. serm . 21. de die sancto Epiphan . Augustin . in Psalm 82. Origen . hom . 7. in Num. Ambros de Sacram . l 4 c. 4. §. 9. Panis iste communis in carnem & sanguinem m●●atus pro●●rat vitam & increment●m corpo●●bus ; ideoque ex consueto rerum effectu , fidei nostrae adjuta infirmitas , sensibili argumento edocta ●st , visibilibus sacramentis inesse vitae aeternae effectum , & non tam corporali quam spirituali transitione Christo nos ua●ri . Id. sect . 5. Panis iste quem Dominus discipulis porrigebat , non effigie , sed naturâ mutatus , omnipotentiâ verbi factus est caro . Id. sect . 6. Et sicut in personâ Christi humanitas videbatur , & latebat divinitas ; ita Sacramento visibili , ineffabilitèr divina se infudit essentia . Ib. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodoret. Dialog . 2. Tom. 1. p. 85. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. Dialog . 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ap●d Photium in Biblioth . Cod. 229. p. 794. Certè Sacramenta quae sumimus , corporis & sanguinis Christi , divina res est , propter quod , & per eadem divinae efficimur consortes naturae & tamen esse non desinit substantia vel natura pani● & vini . Gelas. tract advers . Eutych . & Nestor . §. 10. Not. in Greg. Nyss. p. 45. I● Casaub. Not. 〈◊〉 Greg. Ep●st . ad Eustath , &c. p 99. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Gregor . Nyssen . orat . Catachet . cap. 37. Tom 3. De vit● Mosi● ▪ Hom. 1. in Cant. Orat. Catech. c. 37. c. 40. Epist. Canon . §. 11. Cyril . Catech. Mystagog 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Id. ib. Catech. Myst. 5. Theophil . in Mirc . 14. 〈…〉 Comment . in Psal. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyril . Mystag . 3. p. 235. C●tech . Illum . 3. §. 12. Ambros. de●is q●i i●itian●ur . c. 9. Ch●y●ost in Act. hom . 23. De Sacrament . l. 4. c. 4. Vasquez . disp . 180 c. 9 n. 91. §. 13. P. 259. P. 250. Licèt Christus post coenam instituerit , & suis discipulis administraverit sub utráque specie panis & vini , hoc venerabile Sacramentum ; tamen , hoc non obstante , non confici debet post coenam , nec ●ecipi nisi à jejunis ; similiter , quod licèt in Primit●v● Eccl●siâ Sacramenta reciperentur sub utraque specie à fidelibus , tamen haec consuetudo , ut Laicis sub specie panis tantum suscipiatur , habenda est pro lege , quam non licet repro●are : & asserere hanc esse illicitam , est erroneum , & p●rtinaci●è● ass●rentes sunt arcendi tanquam haereti●i . Concil . Constant. Sess. 13. Carranz Sum. Con. p. 415. Concil . Tom. 7. p. 2 p. 1042. §. 14. P. 271. §. 15. 1 Cor. 11.25 . Ver. 26. De Eucharist . l. 4. c. 25. Luk. 22.19 . Vasquez . in 3. Thom. c. 2. dispat . ●13 . Suarez in 3. Tom. 3 disp . 71. sect . 2. Estius in l. 4. sentent dist . 12. sect . 11. § 16. 2 Cor. 11.20 . P. ●90 . Quanquam sciam Episcopos plurimos , Evangelicae veritatis ac Dominicae traditionis tenere rationem , nec ab eo quod Christus Magister & praecepit & gessit , bumanâ & novellâ institutione dec●dere ; tamen quoniam quidam vel ignorant●r vel simpliciter in calice Dominico sanctificando , & plebi ministrando , non hoc faciant quod Jesus Christus , Dominus & Deus noster , sacrificii hujus Auctor & Doctor , fecit & docuit ; religiosum pariter ac necessarium duxi , has ad vos literas facere , ut si quis in ist● errore adhuc teneatur , veritatis luce perspectâ ad radicem atque originem traditionis Dominicae revertatur . Cyprian . Epist. 63. De Euchar. l. 4. c. 26. Comperimus quod quidam , sump●â tantummodo corporis sacri portione , à cal●ce sacri cruoris abstineant . Qui proculdubio ( quoniam nescio-quâ superstitione docentur obstring● ) aut Sacramenta integra percipia●● , aut ab integris arceantur ; quia divisio unius & ejusdem mysterii sine grandi sacrilegio non potest provenire . Apud Gratian c. Comper . de Consecr . dist . 2. Cusan . ep . 27. §. 17. P. 289. Cassander de Comm●n . sub utrâ● p 1025 , 1027.1039 . op . Paris . Barns Catholico-Rom . Pacif. sect . 7. lit . 8. Rua●d . Tapp●r . Tom. 2. p 328. Alphons . à Castro . haeres . 38. Lindan . Panopl . l. 4. c. 56. Aquinas . p. 3. qu 80 ▪ Art. 12. Aquinas . c. Gentes . l. 4. cap. 61. Bonavent . l 4. dist . 8. Art. 2. q. 2. Alensis . p. 4 q. 6. memb . 3. Art. 2. P. Picherel . de Missâ ▪ c. 4. Alens . p. 4. q 31. memb . 1. Alens , p. 4. q. 53. memb . 1. Quum ad tegend●m infidelitatem suam nostris audeant interesse mysteriu , tam sacramentorum communione se temperant , ut interdum tutius lateant , ore indigno Christi corpus accipiunt , sanguinem autem redemp●ionis nostrae haurire omnino declinant Quod ideo vestram volumus scire sanctitatem , ut vobis hujusmodi homines & hisce manifeslentur indiciis , & quo●um deprehensa fuerit sacrilega simulatio , notati & prod●ti à sanctorum soc●etate , sacerdotum autoritate pellantur . Leo. Sermon . quadrages . 4. Sozom. hist. l. 8. c. 5. Niceph. l. 13. c. 7. Baron . An. 400. n. 67. Albaspinae . observat . l. 1 c. 3 Justin. Martyr . Apol. 2. Euseb. hist. l. 6. c. 36. Hieron . ep . 4. Nazianz. Or. 11. Albaspinae . obs . cap. 4. l. 1. Durant . de r●tib . Eccles. l. ● c. 55. §. 18. P. 276. P. 290. De Missâ . l. ● . c. 10. Sixtus Sen. bibl . Annot. 152. l. 6. Basil. ep . 64. Theodoret. dialog . 3. §. 19. Eckius in Enchirid . cap. 5. Salmeron ●n 1 Tim. 2 disp . S. Peres . de Tradit . p. 3. Bellarm. de Sanctor . Beatit . l. 1. c. 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Apud Euseb. hist. Eccles. l. 4. c. 15. ed. Vales. Answer to the Jesuits Chall . p ; 426. §. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 leg . Usser . ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Orig. c. Celsum l. 5. p. 233. ed. Cantab. L. 5. p. 238. L 8. p. 381. P. 383. P. 384. P. 385. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Orig. l. 8. p. 386. Id. Ibid. Id. p. 395. Id. p. 400. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Orig. l. 8. p. 420. Arnob. l. 3. §. 21. Bellarm. de Sanct. beatitud . l. 1. c. 12. De Sanct. beat . l. 1. c. 7. Bell. de San●● . beat . l. 1. c. 17. Post Tacitum exactum , consummatosque labores Pennam Lipsiades hanc tibi , Diva , dicat . Nil potuit penn● levius tibi Diva dicare , Ni f●●erit levius quod tibi scribit opus . §. 22. Athanas. Orat : 4. Cont. Arrian . Greg. Nyssen . Orat. 4. Cont. Eunom . Novatian . de Trin. c. 14. Aug. de Civit. Dei. l. 22. c. 10. P. 291. Cyprian . ep . 34. p. 53. Rigalt . obs . ad Cyprian . p. 50. Tertull. c. Marcion . l. 3. p. 497. l. 4. p. 502. P. 512. Ed. Rigalt . Cypr. ep . 15. Tertull. de Coron . M●lit . c. 3. §. 23. S. Augustin Enchirid. c. 114. De quantitate animae . c. 34. De ve●á Relig. c. 55. De Civit. Dei. l. 10. c. 1. c. 4. l. 5. c. 15. l. 7. c. 32. Epist. 49. quaest . 3. Epist. 63. Confess . l. 10. c. 42. Colimus ergo Martyres eo cultu dilectionis & societatis , quo & in hâc vitâ coluntur Sancti homines Dei. Cont. Faustum . l. 20 c. 21. Tract . 84. in Johan . De verbis Ap. serm . 17. ( not ) 34. De Civit. Dei. l. 21. c. 27 ▪ Sp●lat . oste● . err . Suarez . c. 2. sect . 20. Wicel . via regia . de I●vocat . Sanct. §. 24. Pag. 276. P. 292. De Sanct. beatitud . l. 1 c. 19. Exod. 32.13 . Exod. 6.5.8 . Levit 26.42 , 45. Aug. in Exod. quaest . 49. Chrysost. hom . 42. in Gen. hom . 27. in Matth. §. 25. P. 293. P. 277. Concil . T●●●nt . sess . ult . Catech. Rom. p. 3 p. 504. Ibid. 1 Cor. 9.23 . §. 26. P. 277. P. 294. §. 27. Optal . l. 3. Orig c. Cels. l. 7. Arnob. l. 6. Lact. l. 2. c. 2. Aug. in Ps. 113. c. 2. Euseb. h●st l. 7. c. 18. Epiph. ep ad Job . Hieros . Concil . Eliber . can . 36. Aug. de morib . Eccles. Cath. c 34. Clem. Alex. Protrept . Tertull. ad Hermog . 〈◊〉 . P. 296. Tertul. Apolog. c. 16. Minut. Fel. p. 33. 〈…〉 §. 28. P. 298. P. 297. P. 298. P. 299. P. 279. §. 1. §. 2. P. 280. P. 282. P. 285. P. 299. P. 301. §. 3. §. 4. P. 301. P. 302. 〈…〉 Taylors Dissuasive from Popery . Chap. 2. §. 5. P. 302. P. 303. Medina de Confess . tr . 2. qu. 4. Maldon . de Sacram. T. 2. c. 3. ● staado in lege Christi praecise pronunciar● sit , ex plurimo●um Ca●holicorum se●te 〈…〉 coram Deo , — qui m●nisestis iniis probat se ve●am b●be●e fidem & chari●●m ; e●si nè verb●m propale● de ● mero , ● gravitate p●ccator●m s●●rum . Ba●s ●ct 8. de paenit . confess . & satisfactione . §. 6. P. 304. P. 305. P. 284. P. 306. P. 285. P. 286. P. 307. P. 296. P. 298. P. 315. §. 7. P. 302. P. 301. P. 316. §. 8. P. 286. P. 308. P. 309. P. 303. P. 317. Ibid. P. 318. P. 306. P. 319. P. 307. P. 320. §. 9. P. 288. P. 308. P. 311. P. 321. P. 301. P. 313. P. 321. Rev. 17.5 . §. 10. P. 222. P. 214. P. 323 , Joh. 15.2 . P. 324. P. 324. P. 325. P. 324. P. 320. §. 1. P. 328. §. 2. P. 329. Bishop Cosens Scholastical history of the Canon of Scripture . P. 330. P. 331. P. 332. P. 334 : P. 335. P. 337. P. 338. P. 339. P. 333. §. 3. §. 4. §. 5. §. 6. Tertui . de virg . veland . cap. 1. §. 7. P. 349. P. 351. P. 352. P. 353. P. 355 , &c. P. 373. P. 376 , &c. P. 375. P. 386. §. 8. P. 391. P. 392. §. 9. P. 366. Cypr. ep . 73. P. 394. Part 2. ch . 2. sect . 8 , 9. §. 10. P. 399 , &c. P. 401. P. 402. P. 403 ▪ P. 404 , &c. P. 406. P. 409. P. 410. P. 411. P. 382. §. 1. De Repub Eccles . l 5 c 8. sect . 73. P. 371. P. 350. §. 2. §. 3. Apolog. Graecorum de Igne Purgat . p. 66. ed. Salmas . P. 358. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . P. 93. Alphons . à Castro . l. 12. tit . purgat . §. 4. Picherellus de Missâ c. 2. p. 150. Punitio ergo in Purgatorio est res in opinione humanâ posita : quae nec ex Scripturis nec Patribus , nec Conciliis deduci potest firmiter : Immo , ( salvo meliori judicio ) opposita sententia eis conformior videtur . Barns Catholico . Rom. Pacif. sect . 9. l. D. ad fin . Paralip . §. 5. Aug. de fide & oper . c. 15 , 16. Aug. de fide & oper . c. 16. Enchirid. c. 69. §. 6. P. 306. Answer to the Jesuits challenge p. 195. P. 204. P. 224. P 265. §. 7. P. 229 ▪ P. 207. P. 241. P. 243. P. 270. §. 8. P. 361. Answ. p. 227. Answer to the Jesuit . p. 210. §. 9. P. 361. De Confirm . l. 2. c. 7. Dionys. Areop . de Eccles. Hier. cap. 7. De Coron . Milit . c. 3. De Monog . c. 10. C. Marc. l. 4. c. 34. De anim● c. 35. Iren. l. 5 cap. 25. De An. c. 55. §. 10. Rigalt . observ . ad Cypr. p. 68. Albaspin . observ . l. 2. c. 12. Hieron . ep . Fab. ad Ocean . §. 11. P. 363. De Purgat . l. 2 c. 1. Biblioth . l. ● . Annot. 170. Sixtus Sen. Biblioth . l. 5. Annot. 171. Comment . in Isa. 66. ad sin . Cont. Pelag. l. 1. §. 12. P. 365. Comment . in Isa. 9. Sixtus Sen. l. 5. Annot. 171. Estius in 1 Cor. 3. Nazian . orat . 39. Orat. 26. In Psal. 118. P. 367. Biblioth . Cod. 233. §. 13. P. 368. P. 372.